1916-05-09

THE MEMBER FOR BELLECHASSE.

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Rouville):: I would like to know if it is true that the hon. member for Belleehasse (Mr. Lavallee) has resigned his seat. I heard that he was to be a candidate in the provincial elections. I would ask his honour the Speaker whether he has received his resignation?


The SPEAKER:: I was told that the hon. member for Belleehasse was to be a candidate in Berthier, but I have not received his resignation yet.
[The Deputy Speaker.]



THE BILINGUAL QUESTION.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Robert Borden for Committee of Supply:
Mr. E. LAPOINTE (Kamouraska) moved in amendment, seconded by Mr. E. B. Devlin:
That all the words after " that " in the main motion toe struck out and the following substituted therefor:
" It has long been the fettled policy of Great Britain whenever a country passed under the sovereignty of the Crown by treaty or otherwise, to respect the religion, usages and language of the inhabitants who thus become British subjects:
"That His Majesty's subjects of French origin in the province of Ontario complain that by recent legislation they have been to a large extent deprived of the privilege which they and their fathers have always enjoyed since Canada passed under the sovereignty of the British Crown, of having their children taught in French.
" That this House especially at this time of universal sacrifice and anxiety, when all energies should toe concentrated on the winning of the war, would, while fully recognizing the principle of provincial rights and the necessity of every child being given a thorough English education, respectfully suggest to the Legislative Assembly the wisdom of making it clear that the privilege of the children of French parentage of being taught in their mother tongue be not interfered with."
Mr. W. E. KNOWLES (Moosejaw):: 
Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister):: Whatever may be said about the point of order, which will be within your disposition, Mr. Speaker, and as to which it might be well for you to take time to make your ruling, I would suggest to my hon. friend who proposes this motion that, whether the point of order be well taken or not, he is bringing into this House a subject over which this House has no jurisdiction, and that, therefore, he ought most carefully to consider whether he is well advised in introducing it here. There is no question that a certain feeling has been aroused in different parts of the country-it is not confined to one part of the country-with respect to matters that are the subject of provincial jurisdiction; and I desire to appeal most earnestly to the hon. gentleman who proposes to introduce this resolution that he should not proceed with it. Its terms, perhaps, I did not accurately gather. A proposed resolution was handed to me last evening by the right hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition, but after listening to the resolution which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lapointe) proposes, I find that it differs somewhat from that which I received from my right hon. friend. In any event, it seems to me that, if my hon. friend is determined to precipitate a debate, which, so far as I see, can do no possible good, and which, in my judgment, may do an infinite amount of harm, the exact terms of the proposed resolution ought to be submitted for the information of the House before any debate takes place. Therefore it would be well, in order that His Honour the Speaker should have an opportunity of considering tne point of order which has been raised, and also that my hon. friend who proposes to move this resolution may have the opportunity for more careful and weighty reflection and consideration, that this motion should stand until to-morrow. In
the meantime His Honour the Speaker may take into consideration the point of order which has been raised by the hon. member for Moosejaw.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Mr. Speaker,
I beg to submit, in all humility, but with great force, that the point of order of my hon. friend from Moosejaw is not at all well taken. There is an abundance of precedents in this very House against it. As to the legislation of the province of Ontario which it is proposed to discuss to-day, m no hostile spirit, I am sure, we have the precedents in this House, in the time of Sir John Macdonald, in the time of Liberal <md Conservative Administrations, of resolutions in favour of Home Rule being presented and adopted, not once, not twice, but three times, and perhaps four, within my recollection. I have to say also that upon more than one occasion the British Parliament was moved, amongst others by Mr. Gladstone, to consider the treatment of Christian populations in the 'Orient. If I had supposed that any question would be raised as to the power of this House to consider or pass such a resolution, I could have armed myself with any number of precedents. As to the wisdom, or otherwise, of this motion, may I say to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister that for my part I have another and a totally different view from the one which he has expressed. Everybody knows that there is in this province at the present time a widespread agitation with regard to the rights of the French language in this Dominion. It is never a wise thing to run away from a question.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not want any applause. I address myself to the common sense and the spirit of fairness of my fellow countrymen in the province of Ontario, and I repeat that we have nothing to gain by running away from the question. Let us discuss it like men; let us discuss it like the British subjects that we are. I speak here as a member of the minority; but no one is prouder of his British rights than I am myself, and I can appeal to my forty years in this House to justify what I now say. There is nothing to be gained by running away from this question. Let us discuss it; let us hear both sides of it; and then, Sir, I believe that from this discussion we shall rise wiser and better men, knowing better what our position is, knowing better what the rights of the minority

are; and I venture to say that when the question has been settled, as it ought to be settled, the minority will accept the situation whatever it may be.


Hon. T. CHASE CASGRAIN (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, just a word upon the question of order raised by my hon. friend from Moosejaw. I do not think the precedents which have been advanced by my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition have any application. The precedents that he has referred to are the precedents of Home Rule resolutions, which on several occasions were moved in this House, and also certain resolutions which were moved in the House of Commons in England with reference to the Christian populations of the Orient. I do not think that any benefit can be derived from the first precedent, that is, the passage of Home Rule resolutions by this House. I have not seen the terms of the present resolution, but, if I am correctly informed, we are asked to comment to a certain degree upon the action of a legislature in this Dominion. The powers conferred upon the legislature and upon the Dominion are defined very clearly by the British North America Act, and it seems to me that, by reason of that clear definition, any interference by this House in a question which concerns a legislature is an interference which cannot be justified by saying that upon another occasion the House expressed itself in favour of Home Rule. Let me call the attention of the House to the fact that the resolutions which were passed in favour of Home Rule were addressed to His Majesty's Government, and did not have the same significance as a resolution in this Federal House approving or blaming a legislature in the Dominion. Let me say one word to my hon. friend1 from Kamour-aska (Mr. E. Lapointe) who has- moved this resolution. I am as much concerned over this question as my hon. friend. I take as much interest, and have taken as much, interest in it from the very first time that it was mentioned, as my hon. friend, and more than my hon. friend has done while he ha6 been a member of this House. I have not had occasion to see the motion. I was unavoidably kept away from the House last evening. I saw a form of resolution this morning, but I am told that that is not th'e resolution which .is before the House. I suppose that what my hon. friend has in mind is the good of the cause which he

is advocating. If it is, and if he really does want an intelligent and clear discussion of the question, let him give notice of the resolution which he intends to move, so that we may see what attitude we upon this side of the House, or amongst ourselves, will take upon it; or, let him at least give us time to prepare any argument which he thinks we should bring forward either in favour of the resolution or against it.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I ask that if hon. gentlemen want to have until to-morrow, or another day, to examine the resolution which is presented, I certainly would advise my hon. friend (Mir. Lapointe) to agree at once to the suggestion.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I was not present when the initial proceedings here to-day were had, and I do not quite understand all that has taken place up to the present moment. My understanding is, however, that an hon. member of this House wishes to move a resolution on the subject which has been mentioned, and that the point of order has been taken as to whether or not this is a subject which ought properly to come before this House. It is that question of order that ie now being discussed. I do not wish to say anything at all in reference to the question of order. My right hon. friend who has just taken hie eeat (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) has asked his supporter, in reference to what hae been said, to let this motion stand for another d'ay. I wish to the bottom of my heart that he had put his plea that the question should stand forever and a day. For many days now there has been in the air the threatening of a coming menace. It has been stated that from one side or the other a question would be forced into this-


William Erskine Knowles: Mr. Speakerl, I rise to a point of order. I am sorry if my point of order has precipitated this discussion. I do not think it is fair to my hon. friend from Kamouraeka (Mr. Lapointe). I now raise the point of order, in regard to the Temarks made by my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), that he is not addressing himself to th'e point of order, but that he is discussing the merits of the proposed resolution. I would ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether it is now in order to discuss

the merits of the proposed resolution. I felt it my duty to bring this point of order to the .attention of the House, hut I do not want any unfair advantage to be taken of my hon. friend from Kamouraska.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: The last point of order of the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) is certainly well taken.


William Erskine Knowles: On the first point of order, I want to say .a word An reply before you decide.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: If objection is taken, I
think the Minister of Trade and Commerce will have to discontinue his remarks. The main point of order is certainly of very great importance and has, I must say, taken me quite by surprise-I only got back from Quebec to-day-and I would rather reserve my ruling on it until to-morrow.


Sir GEORGE  POSTER@: Does that mean that I must reserve my remarks till tomorrow? [DOT]


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: The question before the House is certainly of the greatest importance. If the House is disposed to listen to the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce there will be no objection from the Chair; but, if objection comes from the House, I have already ruled that the minister must discontinue his remarks.


William Erskine Knowles: I wish to say a word
on the point of order, in reply to what my right hon. leader has said. The belief that has been in my mind ever since this resolution-


George Eulas Foster: I have the floor, I believe. So far as the Speaker is concerned, I am not denied the privilege of continuing my remarks.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: I understand the Alin-ister of Trade and Commerce is coming to the point of order.


William Erskine Knowles: He said he was not
going to discuss the point of order.


George Eulas Foster: I can easily
frame an argument which will touch the point of order. However, it was not my intention at all to discuss the merits of a resolution which I have not yet seen, and about which it would therefore be quite impossible for me to offer an opinion or advance an argument.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Can the minister say
whether it ought to come here or not?


George Eulas Foster: I wish to make an appeal to Parliament as to a member of the House.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: If the Minister of Trade and Commerce is permitted to make his suggestions to the House other members will claim the same privilege in which case a discussion would be had forthwith on the motion of the hon. member for Kamouraska. I think it is the desire of the House to postpone the discussion until to-morrow. With regard to the point of order raised by the hon. member for Moosejaw, at first glance I do not think it is well taken, but I should prefer to study the point and reserve my ruling until to-morrow.


George Eulas Foster: In deference to-your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I will not make-any further remarks. The spirit and the intention of what I meant to say will, I think be well understood by the House and' by the country.


William Erskine Knowles: I wish to say a word on the point of order, in reply to what my right hon. leader has said.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: I do not think the hon. member is entitled to reply. I understand' the point of order will be raised again tomorrow.


William Erskine Knowles: Nobody was objecting
to my saying a word.
Some hon. MEAIBERS:	Order.


William Erskine Knowles: The Minister of Trade-and Commerce was allowed to continue until somebody stopped him.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: I think the hon. gentleman had better wait until to-morrow,, when I shall give my ruling on the point of order.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went, into Committee of Supply.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Public Works-harbours and rivers, New-Brunswick-Kouchibouguae, $10,500.
['Yes, $20,000 a mile. There was a railroad built by the city of Winnipeg from Winnipeg east within the last couple of years, and the only difference between the construction of that road and the construction of the branch lines on the prairie by the Canadian Northern is that the rails are somewhat lighter. They have a 60-pound rail, and in some cases the branch lines may have rails over 60 pounds. That road was built and equipped, as far as was necessary, for $12,000 a mile, or about half of what is charged up on the Canadian Northern, proving what I say that the money that this Government and the local Governments have advanced, as well as the proceeds of securities not guaranteed by either, has been switched from the Canadian Northern altogether, and put into concerns in Mexico, Toronto and elsewhere, and has gone into the pockets of the promoters of these enterprises. Now they come forward, and they do not put up one cent of their money. They did not put up anything two years ago when they came and asked for a guarantee. The Government gave that guarantee, and took no precautions to see that the money all went into the road, and now the company comes forward again and says: You must give us more money or we will throw the road on your hands. They came and held the Government up, and now the Government says: Well, we will give you $15,000,000 more and pay $3,000,000 of interest. That is the position of affairs to-day, and next year it will be just as bad, and perhaps worse. What are you going to do about it? Why not face the music like men? The war is not going to be over next year; certainly our war expenditure will not be over, and what better position can we expect to be in? We will have $300,000,000 or perhaps $400,000,000 more of debt than we have to-day, and we will be', "in a worse position to deal with this question. It is a most serious matter. Inside of five years Canada will have from one and a half billions to two billion dollars of debt to face. These two railroads will have to be looked after in some way, and if the Government takes them over, or keeps on fathering them, we will be liable for the whole business; and we will have from $75,000,000 to $100,000,000 of fixed charges and interest to pay every year. The situation will be worse if you let Mackenzie & Mann handle the Canadian Northern. If you are going to give them the money, why not give it iri such a manner that you will have some control. I do not like the idea of Government ownership; I have no use for it if it can be avoided; but there may be a worse thing than Government ownership. According to my idea, -it is a worse thing to pour money in and let somebody else handle it just as it suits him while you take the liability, and while you are not sure that all the money goes into the road. That is the position we are in to-day, and I think the Government ought to reconsider their attitude in regard to the matter. There might be some excuse for going to the rescue of these two roads because the Dominion and the provinces have so much in them, but what excuse is there for voting millions, either money or guaranteed bonds, to take over two roads in Quebec and to add to the Intercolonial that is losing money every year, simply to help out a political friend at a time when Canada cannot afford to put $1,000,000, or $4,000,000, in cash or securities into these roads? It is bad enough to help out the roads that the Government has some liability for, but to shoulder new liabilities where the Government has no responsibility whatever is one of the most criminal things that a government could do considering the financial position that Canada is in to-day.\nProgress reported.\t[DOT]\n'On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House adjourned at 11.20.\nWednesday, May 10, 1916."]
Mr. LOGGIE:: What is to be done here?


Mt. ROGERS:: This amount of $10,500 is asked for by District Engineer Stead for repairs and improvements to the harbour-at Kouchibouguac, which was badly damaged by a storm on 20th November, 1914. The proposed works will consist of the con-

struetion of a new dam, the repairing and extension of the old dam, and the rebuilding of pile breastworks. The estimated cost is as follows: dam to close new opening in beach, 800 feet long, at $0 per foot, $7,200; pile breastworks repaired and rebuilt, 1,000 feet, at $1.50, $1,500; extending old dam, 200 .feet, at $4, $800; repairing dam, 125 feet; and contingencies, $1,000.


William Stewart Loggie: I heartily agree with
what the minister proposes to do at Kouchi-bouguac. The storm caused very serious damage, and I hope the minister will see that the new work is done very thoroughly, so that the breakwater will not be carried away by the next bad storm.


Mr. VERVTLLE:: If the minister would
permit me on this item, I should like to remind him that on Friday last, I think, I asked him to lay on the Table a copy of the fair-wage clause in regard to the work to be done at the Parliament Buildings. The minister's answer was that the committee would meet the next day. Of course, I did not understand that that committee which was to meet next day had anything to do with the fair wage clause in connection with that work; I assumed that that belonged to the Labour Department, and, I suppose, to the Minister of Public Works. It seems to me that it should be laid on the table for a good many reasons. My information is that the wages -of some of the workmen on the building have been lowered since last winter, notwithstanding that we hear it stated in Parliament every day that the cost of living is increasing. I do not know how this work is to be carried on, whether by contract, or on a percentage, or in. any other way; but that makes no real difference, the Government of Canada ought to pay at least as much as any private contractor in the city of Ottawa is called upon to pay. And it seems to me it would be much better in the interests of labour in this country that we should know as soon, as possible the wages that the workers may expect to receive in this work of rebuilding. I have just said that wages were lower. My information comes directly from the men working on the building. Last winter the carpenters received 40 cents an hour, but now they are paid 35 cents an hour. I believe that 35 cents an. hour was the rate provided for in the fair wage clause applied to the custom house building. But the contract for that was made six years ago, and conditions have greatly changed since that time-the Minister of Public Works knows

that as well as I do. Therefore, it would not be fair to suppose that the same rate would apply to the present work as applied to the construction of the custom house. Furthermore, in the case of the custom house contract, provision, was made for an eight-hour day. As the work of rebuilding the Pafliament buildings is supposed to go on with rapidity, it may be found necessary to have three .shifts a day. In that case it will be much better for the contractor, and for the Government as well, that an eight-hour day should be provided. -
If	you	have a	nine-hour day,	youcannot	have mo-re	than two .shifts,	andyou	are liable,	not infrequently,	tobe	in	such a	position as- to	be
compelled to use overtime; whereas, if you have three shifts, no overtime has to be paid. Of course, the wages should be in proportion to the cost of living. The Minister of Labour knows that according to the report of his department a family cannot live honestly on much less than $900 a year. The total of items contained in his report is about $800, but there are many items omitted which simply must be paid for by every family. I bring this matter up now because I suppose arrangements for the work are not yet completed, and it is well to provide in such a way as to give satisfaction to those interested in the work. I have spoken specially of the carpenters, but I might refer to those in other trades. I trust the Minister of Labour will consult the representatives of the different trades in Ottawa, and will get the report of his fair wage officers on this .subject. I think he will find that the wages are, in some cases, far below what they ought to be. It would be in the interest of the contract itself that the Minister of Public Works should do as his predecessor did in the case of the customs house building, and provide for an eight-hour day. The work will go on more rapidly; which will be a benefit to Parliament and to the country at large.


Robert Rogers: I have very little objection to what my hon. friend has said with respeet to the fair wage clause. I shall be glad to take this up with the Minister of Labour, as I intend to do, before we get started, and ask him to arrange a schedule of prices for the labour engaged in the reconstruction of the building. The eight hour day arrangement is something upon which I would not like to make a definite statement until I have had an opportunity to look into it with the officers of the department and study what the custom has been in the past in this particular locality.

We must have Tegard to conditions as they exist; and, having regard to these conditions, we will treat the matter in the best light and give it very favourable consideration.
Public Works-harbours and rivers, Quebec- Anse a Beaufils-to repair breakwater, $1,450.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I had not expected to speak on any of these votes, but on this item for Anse a Beaufils breakwater I have something to suggest to my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works. I regret that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr.< Hazen) is not in his place, for what I have to say relates more 'to his department, but as the Minister of Public Works is the " master of . the Administration " he can give his orders to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. This Anse a Beaufils is a little cove on the Baie de Chaleur, in the county of Gaspe. I initiated the work there myself and happen to know exactly the conditions. This is an excellent little harbour for the fishermen. The fishermen on that coast go pretty far out in the gulf of St. Lawrence to fish, and as my hon. friend is aware there are more wrecks in that district, perhaps, than in any other part of the gulf of St. Lawrence. There is a bank there called the Orphans' hank, because of the many wrecks that havie taken place. This little harbour was built in order to give protection in time of storm, a harbour of refuge for the fishermen. I have visited the harbour on several occasions, and the fishermen have expressed great gratification that this harbour had been provided. But consider what has happened during the last three or four years. I received a letter a few days ago, and I saw the fishermen myself when I passed there last Thanksgiving day. The harbour is so good and is so well equipped that the fishermen from all the neighbouring localities, from Bonaventure island, from the county of Bonaventure, and even from neighbouring places in New Brunswick, when there is a storm in the gulf, make direct for Anse a Beaufils, and thus the fishermen of Anse a Beaufiils themselves are deprived of their harbour for the benefit of outsiders. Of course, a true fisherman must always 'be liberal and generous to neighbouring fishermen. Therefore, one of two things should be done by the department in this case, either to enlarge the harbour or give instructions to the harbour master	to limit	the	use of	the
place to the people of the locality.
I suggest to the minister that he widen the approaches of the harbour rather than limit the number of fishermen who may take shelter there. I shall be very glad if my hon. friend will note my remarks and instruct his engineer during the coming season to visit the locality and see what can be done in order to meet the exigencies of the case. I can assure him that this is a grievance on the part of the fishermen of the locality, because, although it is their own home, they are dislodged from it by their neighbours-good neighbours, as they are-from Gloucester and Bonaventure.


Mr. TURGEON:: May I be permitted to say that I concur in the suggestions made by the hon. member for Rouville? These natural harbours will have to be enlarged or given additional protection if they are to render the service that they should. Our fishermen are numerous in Gloucester. We have two hundred sailing vessels going to the banks, and when the wind strikes in one direction they have to get shelter wherever the elements take them. I remember that complaint was made a few years ago by members from Prince Edward Island with regard to the harbour of Tignish, which was sometimes filled by the Gloucester sailing vessels. The Minister of Public Works at that time did enlarge the breakwater there, and now all the fishermen of Gloucester and Gaspe can get what protection they need in that harbour without causing any detriment to the fishermen of the locality. I hope that the minister will take this matter into consideration during the coming summer and see what can be done.	*


Robert Rogers: I have listened with interest to what the hon. member for Gloucester has said, as well as the hon. member for Rouville, in respect to this important harbour. I find that it is a rather important harbour of its kind; it is a harbour of refuge, and the population immediately affected amounts to something like 4,000. A considerable amount of money has been spent there, nearly $30,000. The amount asked for in the Estimates is simply $1,450 for the repair of the breakwater. Some work was done on the breakwater last year; $3,000 was spent. We have improved the breakwater, therefore, sufficiently, but we have not yet given consideration to the idea of widening the harbour, as has been suggested by my hon. friend. I shall be

glad to have the engineer look into it and see if there is necessity for it.
Anse St. Jean-completion of wharf extension, $3,500.


Mr. MARCIL:: Does that complete the work?


Robert Rogers: Yes.
Grands Machins-enlargement of wharf,


Charles Marcil: Is this: a new work?


Robert Rogers: This is practically a new work of widening the wharf. Th'e matter of going on this year is nnder consideration.


Charles Marcil: That is in the connty of Rimouski, I understand?


Robert Rogers: Yes.
Point Pizeau-repairs to wharf, $11,100.


Charles Marcil: Where is that situated?
Mr., ROGERS: About two miles from the city of Quebec.


Charles Marcil: Is that to be done this year?


Robert Rogers: Yes, that is the intention.
Port Lewis, repairs to wharf, $1,600.


Mr. ROBB:: Will the minister explain what this work is?


Robert Rogers: This amount is asked for by the district engineer to remove the face timbers of the wharf, which are badly decayed for a height of 6 feet, and to replace the same with a concrete wall 18 feet thick .at the base and 9 feet thick at the top. The approach of the wharf also requires cbncreting. The estimated cost is $1,600.


James Alexander Robb: I hope that the minister, now that the amount is in the Estimates', will not treat that .as he has treated the works on La Guerre river. There has been in the Estimates since 1911 an amount of $15,000 for the works on La Guerre river. Last November, about the time that we heard considerable talk of a gen

eral election, La Presse newspaper had a write-up on the La Guerre river. They sent out this statement to the people of Huntingdon:
Happy Initiative.
The electors of Huntingdon have been very pleased to learn that the Government, thanks to the initiative of the Minister of Public Works (the Hon. Mr. Rogers) had pract'cally decided to execute the. old promises and use
[Mr. Rogers.)
the sums of money which have been placed at his disposal for those works and which lie dormant in the coffers.
That money has been steeping there since this Government came into power in 1911. I think a couple of weeks ago, in answer to the hon. member for Bona-venltuTO, "the Minister of Public Works stated that they did not intend to go on with the work this year. I gather, therefore, that La Presse newspaper in November was badly informed.


Robert Rogers: We are going on with this $1,600 work.
Quyon-in full and final settlement of claim of T. and J. Moran in connection with their contract for construction of Wharf, $813.63.


George Perry Graham: What is that?


Robert Rogers: This amount is required to pay the claim of T. and J. Moran [DOT] in connection with their contract for the construction of a wharf at Quyon. The claim is made up as follows: Increased quantities of timber used in work, $478.38; extra cost to provide temporary landing for steamer G. B. Greene while the wharf was under construction, $365.25; total $843.62.
Rimouski wharf-water supply, $6,000.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister explain that item?


Robert Rogers: This amount is required to provide for the extension of the waterworks at Rimouski to the outer end of the wharf, for the purpose of supplying fresh water to the Government and other vessels. The town of Rimouski undertakes to instal this system in a first-class manner for this amount.


Charles Marcil: Has the resident engineer of Bonaventure county reported in favour of repairs being made to certain of the wharfs down there-I refer particularly to Bonaventure, Gascon, St. Godfroy, Cap-lan and Paspebiac? Is provision made for the completion of Ithe beach protection work fat Carleton and Maria? Is work to be carried on thp wharf of Robin, Jones & Whitman at Paspebiac? Bonaventure county does does not appear in the Main or the Supplementary Estimates. I wanted to know whether the engineer had omitted to make any report, or whether the department had decided not to make any expenditures. I ask this, because a lot of these repairs are necessary.


Robert Rogers: In general terms, all repairs asked for by the engineers appear in

the Estimates; but the deputy will look the matter up, and if we have any recommendations from the engineer in the department, we shall be glad to send a copy to my hon. friend. The Paspebiac wharf has not yet been transferred to the department.


Charles Marcil: The minister's explanation last year was that it was intended to spend three or four thousand dollars on this wharf, the wharf to remain the property of the private owners, but to be available for the use of the public. Is no work to be done until the wharf is transferred to the Department?


Mr. EOGEES:: That is my understanding.


Charles Marcil: The highways at Carleton and Maria have been washed away by the heavy tides and storms. Is that beach protection work to be continued this year?


Norman McLeod Rogers: There is a difference of opinion as to whether the work that has been carried on in the past at Carleton and Maria should be done by 3 p.m. this department or by the municipal authorities. Of course, at present, when we can get any excuse to delay expenditure we are doing so, and that may 'be the explanation in this ease.
Harbours and rivers, Ontario-Bruce Mines- repairs to and reconstruction of wharf, $12,750.


Norman McLeod Rogers: This amount was asked for by the district engineer to repair and reconstruct this wharf. On October 4, 1915, he reported that this expenditure was necessary, the work to consist of cutting the piles off at water level and building, a complete new superstructure.
Cobourg-repairs to east pier, $15,000.


Norman McLeod Rogers: This is asked for by the district engineer to make general repairs and improvements to the east pier, 200 feet in concrete. The work done during the present fiscal year consisted in the completion and the reconstruction of the centre pier, under contract with Eandolph Macdonald. This pier has a length of 631 feet. The reconstruction of 320 feet of the east pier is concrete work.


Mr. GEAHAM:: The car ferry goes across the lake there, does it not?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.


Mr. NESBITT:: Was there something
wrong with the construction that you need repairs?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is an old wharf, which is being repaired.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You are building it with cement now?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.
Grand Bend-repairs to pier, $15,000.


Duncan Graham: Is there any work being done at Kingston drydock in the way of repairing ships?


Norman McLeod Rogers: There is something being done. The Kingston Shipbuilding Company do a good deal of work theTe.


Duncan Graham: What size of boat can
they handle in that drydock?	*


Norman McLeod Rogers: I have not the size.


Mr. EEID:: It is larger than any of the Welland canal vessels. I know that a vessel of the full Welland canal size was in there, and there seemed to be quite a space at each end.


Duncan Graham: They can handle any
ship that goes through our canal.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.
Parry Sound-in full and final settlement of Robinson, Walton and White's claim in connection with their wharf contract, $1,500.


Duncan Graham: What was the trouble there?


Norman McLeod Rogers: This claim was as follows: For dredging 2,500 cubic yards for crib berth, at 30 cents per cubic yard, $750; for dredging 1,000 cubic yards rock filling, at 75 cents per cubic yard, $750; total, $1,500. Owing to the fact that an error of 26 feet was made in laying out the work, the contractors were obliged to remove by dredging a portion of the filling placed by them in the approach. In a letter of May 5, 1915, Chief Engineer Lafieur stated that in view of the error he was of the opinion that the contractors should not be penalized, and that their claim amounting to $1,500 should be allowed.
Port Burwell-repairs to piers, $32,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I thought you had got
through with that work?


Norman McLeod Rogers: This is for repairs.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What was the matterwas the wharf washed away?


Norman McLeod Rogers: This amount of $32,000 is asked for by District Engineer Merrick to make the following repairs to the piers at Port Burwell:	Eeoonstruction of portion

of east pier in mass concrete for height of 7 feet, width 24 feet, and length 560 feet; 3,482 cubic yards concrete at $7, $24,374. Completion of renewing defective faced timbers on east side of same, cross ties and decking, 300 feet, at $4, $1,200; completion of pile work on west side of turning basin, consisting of 10 x 10 x 35 feet, sheet piling, with double waling at top and outside waling at L.W.L. anchored to old mill, 315 lineal feet, at $20 per foot, $6,300; total, $31,874.
Port Stanley-reconstruction of pier, $100,000.


George Perry Graham: This is a work which has given the Government a good deal of trouble, if I mistake not. In connection with the original construction of the work, was there not a large claim for extras which stood over for some years? Possibly it has not been settled yet. If I remember correctly, the work had been begun and partially completed, when it was washed away in a storm, or badly damaged, and had to be reconstructed. The contractor made a claim for damages some years ago.


Robert Rogers: I think you have Goodrich in mind.


George Perry Graham: I remember the Goodrich case, but this is another one. I think it was Port Stanley.


Robert Rogers: This has nothing to do
with that. We had an old wharf at Port Stanley, and .it was proposed some years ago to widen the channel, and the outside breakwater was built up. The old breakwater is giving way, and it is necessary to build a new breakwater this year in order to save the work that has been done within the last few years. It is absolutely necessary to protect the work already done, as well as to protect and develop the harbour in such a manner as will enable ships tp get in. The old breakwater and the old wharf have given way entirely on the one side, and this is to remedy this condition, and to save the new work.


George Perry Graham: What railways run to Port Stanley?


Robert Rogers: There is the London .municipal road and the Michigan Central. There is a great deal of traffic and Port Stanley is, I should think, the largest harbour in the western portion of Ontario.
Public Works

harbours and rivers-British Columbia-Fraser river improvements-further amount required, $200,000.


Robert Rogers: This is for the big improvements started some years ago.


George Perry Graham: What strikes one as a little peculiar about such items as this is that the engineers, in making their estimates for next year, seem to have -made an error of at least $200,000.


Robert Rogers: No, no.


George Perry Graham: When the Main Estimates are being prepared the engineers are .supposed to put in all the amounts required- for next year. Evidently in connection with this one item a sum of $200,000 was omitted. Without wishing to censure anybody, it seems to me that it is too much the habit in the departments to make up their Main Estimates hurriedly and to take a chance, thinking there is plenty of time, in the Supplementaries, the result being that the members do not get a real grasp of what the expenditures are going to be. I have always maintained that, both in the Government and out of it. It came to pretty nearly that condition in the Railway Department. If urged, the engineers can give you pretty approximately what they require for the year in time to put the amount in the Main Estimates. That saves a lot of trouble. The Public Works Department appears to be slipping away from that, I think. There are some pretty big items in the Supplementaries this year. If the engineers could be made to understand that for a year or two they were not going to have any Supplmentary Estimates, they would get their Estimates ready for the Main Estimates.


Robert Rogers: That has been for many
years the practice in the Public Works Department. It has been somewhat different from the practice of the Department of Railways. With reference to this particular work, this is the third unit of a very large work that was undertaken some years ago and is being completed. It is the building of a jetty on the Fraser river.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is that not all the more reason why they should harve had it in the Main Estimates? They must have known what was required six months ago.


Robert Rogers: That has not been the
usual practice of the Public Works Department for many years past.
( Mr. GRAHAM: Would it not be a good idea to have it that way?


Robert Rogers: I thought it would 'he when I came in, but I found it was not practicable.


George Perry Graham: I could understand that it might be necessary in connection with some new work, but this work on the Fraser river has been going on for some years. The engineers knew six months ago what they intended to expend; but, knowing that the vote would be put in the Supple-mentaries, they did not give it to you for the Main Estimates. The difficulty is this: The members are asked to put through the Main Estimates before they see the Supple-mentaries. They vote amounts for certain works in the Main Estimates, but when the Supplementaries come up they find that they are really the Main Estimates so far as these works are concerned. I have no objection to the money being voted for the work; I think it is all right; but I think it would be better if we could arrive at a system by which the Main Estimates would be the Main Estimates and the Supplementary Estimates would be the Supplementaries.


Robert Rogers: This particular Estimate, together with the recommendation of the engineers, was in the department in time for the Main Estimates; but I had the idea that probably we could get on without spending the money this year. The engineers, however, convinced me that it was absolutely necessary to carry out that contract to save the work already done. A hundred thousand dollars has already been spent there, and this amount is necessary to enable the work to be carried to completion.


George Perry Graham: That same condition
arises every year, I am afraid.
Dredging - Ontario and Quebec - further amount required. $50,000.


Mr. MARC IL:: I would like to present
to the minister a long-standing grievance. We have no details in reference to the amounts estimated to be expended in Ontario or Quebec. I understand it is left entirely to the discretion of the minister to allot the vote as he decides. We do not know where this work is to be done. Where is it proposed to expend this amount this year?


Robert Rogers: If the hon. gentleman
will follow the Estimates closely, he will see that we have reduced the amount for dredging in the various provinces.


Wilfrid Laurier: Reduced it,
actually?


Robert Rogers: Very largely, yes. We
reduced it so much that we find that we have to ask for an additional $50,000 here. For example, for our own dredging plant, which we already have at work both in Quebec and Ontario, there is an estimated expenditure of $417,000, and the total amount that we asked for all the dredging work for the year was $550,000, including this $50,000; so that we have very little margin with which to do any dredging outside of the dredging -to be carried out by the plant under the control of the department. The work of these dredges is divided as equally as possible between Ontario and Quebec.
Mr. MARCI'L:	I do not refer particularly to where the work is done, but I would like to know what is to be done. What work does the department intend to carry on during the present season in Ontario and Quebec?


Robert Rogers: It is being carried on at various points where there is necessity for it. There is a necessity for dredging this year at Three Rivers. It has been pressed for there and at similar points where navigation is affected by the filling in of silt. Dredging is necessary to provide for the accommodation of boats up and down the rivers at various points. There is no settled place.


Charles Marcil: The great objection is
that there is nothing settled. I have referred to this especially, because some years ago some dredging was done in the channel of the Bonaventure river; the navigators appreciated very much the work that was commenced; but the unfortunate thing is that the work has remained unfinished. People ask me whether any dredging work is to be done there, and I am not in a position to say yes or no. If the minister would give the House the dredging programme for the season and a list of the places in which work is to be done, it would be a great advantage.


Robert Rogers: I shall be very glad to
supply any details the committee may require. If my hon. friend requires any details with respect to the locality to which he has referred, we shall be very pleased to give them to him.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister tell
me whether there will be any dredging in the Bonaventure river this year? [DOT]


Robert Rogers: We have not laid out to do any work there. The work there will probably be more than our dredge could carry on. If we had a larger vote in the Estimates it might be possible to do some work there by contract, but, having so little, I doubt if it will be possible to do any work this year unless there is a very pressing necessity for it. If navigation were obstructed we would have to try to relieve the condition.


James Alexander Robb: Can the minister tell us if he is going to do any dredging in Valley-field bay? His engineers have been staking out there all winter. There is considerable. coal and lumber around there, and owing to the change in the water level the boats cannot get in. It was to be understood that the work was to be done this summer.


Robert Rogers: I cannot give my hon. friend a definite answer, as I have not the information before me. I know there has been some construction of a wharf at Val-leyfield, but I do not know in what shape it stands to-day. Engineers of different power companies interested have their men down there surveying, and the men my hon. friend speaks of may not be engineers of the Public Works Department. I have no knowledge whether our engineers are down there just now.


Mr. TOBIN:: Could the minister say on this item whether the public building at D'lsraeli, for which there is a revote of $10,000 in the Main Estimates, will be gone on with this year, and whether the site has been purchased?


Robert Rogers: There will be no expenditure on that item this year.
International bridge between St. Leonard, N.B., and Van Buren, Maine-repairs, $2,000.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister taken any further steps with regard to the construction of an interprovincial bridge between Campbellton and the Quebec side, over the Restigouche river? The county councils of Bonaventure and Restigouche and adjoining municipalities, and several boards of trade have been after the department asking for this bridge. It was originally proposed to ask for a joint highway and railway bridge, but when this Administration came into office, the people of Campbellton, thinking the railway feature of the bridge was rather ahead of the time, consented to ask for a highway bridge only, on the understanding that the provinces of Quebec apd New Brunswick would give a grant towards the undertaking, and that the whole work

would be done by the Department of Public Works. I am sorry to say nothing has been done yet, except making surveys, soundings, and so on. Campbellton is rapidly becoming the most important town in northern New Brunswick. As the minister knows, it is the centre of the Intercolonial railway in that district, and has large lumbering operations. Its. population is increasing year by year, and the town is perhaps the most enterprising one in the whole of northern New Brunswick. Communication with the Quebec side is very difficult, being by flat-bottomed scows which can travel only at certain hours, owing to the low tide on the Restigouche river. There is great necessity for this bridge. When the Government took over the International bridge, which runs into Campbellton, we had hopes .that it would also take over the Gaspe and Baie des Chaleurs railway, and that the two would be linked up by a joint railway .and highway bridge. Has any action in this respect been taken by the department, or is -any such action in contemplation?


Robert Rogers: A couple of years ago or more the importance of this work was recognized. Undoubtedly it isi a. very necessary work, -and one in which the provinces of New Brunswick and Quebec are very dteeply interested'. Hollowing the recommendations, an expensive survey was made in connection with the proposed undertaking, but the estimated cost of the bridge was so heavy that we did not feel warranted in constructing it two years ago, and that is still our attitude to-day. The work, however, is very necessary, and should be carried out when conditions change; but .at the present .time I do not think there is any hope either of the Public Works Department or of the two provinces concerned going on with it.


Charles Marcil: Was the last survey for a highway bridge or joint highway and railway bridge?


Robert Rogers: A highway bridge.


Charles Marcil: What was the estimated cost?


Robert Rogers: I shall be glad to send a copy of the report to my hon. friend if he is interested.


Charles Marcil: I am greatly interested;
it is a live question with us.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Charles Marcil: An additional reason for making a highway bridge there is that you are going to cross the canal at Ste. Anne de Bellevue, and that will mean that the. Department of Railways and Canals will also be interested. I recall that the Department of Public Works some years ago utilized an old bridge on the Intercolonial to provide a bridge at Matapedia across the



[Stage Direction]
Restigouche river. The piers were there, and the old bridge was taken out and put alongside the railway bridge, thus making a highway bridge which has been a great benefit to the locality, enabling the people to reach a district that, up to that time, had been almost inaccessible. The minister must not forget that there are about seven hundred thousand people on the island of Montreal, and the number is rapidly increasing, so that it will be a million people before long, and these people cannot get off the island in this direction except by crossing this river. In addition to the point the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) has mentioned with regard to the Grand Trunk, a similar arrangement might be made with the Canadian Northern with regard to their bridge at Isle Bizard. I have no doubt that the hon. member for Two Mountains (Mr. Ethier) would take the .same position.
Mr.  W. F. MAOLEAN@: The same question has come up in connection with the Railway Bill that was brought down two years ago, and that ought to be made law now. The principle is broader than any raised by the two hon. members who have spoken. The Railway Commission should be given power to order any railway to .allow a municipality or province to be joint builders with them of any new bridge; and I think it ought to go even further and provide that the public, whether acting through a province or a municipality, should be able to go to the Railway Commission andl have an order made that an existing bridge owned by a railway company, if it will bear the added strain, should be usable for highway purposes. In my own constituency is a wide ravine which is crossed by the Canadian Pacific. The railway company propose to rebuild that bridge, and have expressed their willingness to co-operate with the city of Toronto in the construction of a joint highway-and railway bridge. That is being worked out, but as a matter of grace or concession by the railway. It seems to me high time that we should have in the general law governing railways a provision giving a municipality or a province the right to associate itself with a railway in using any bridge for highways as well as for railway purposes.


Mr. DESCARRIES:: (Translation.) Mr Chairman as the Grand Trunk Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway bridges between St. Anne and Vaudreuil, just mentioned, connect with the county of Jacques Cartier,


EDITION
[Stage Direction]
which I have the honour to represent in this House, I feel it is my duty to say a few words in favour of the building of a structure or bridge over which vehicles and pedestrians could cross from St. Anne to Perrott island and Vaudreuil.
As was said a while ago by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) it seems to me that communication could easily be established at this spot. Between the Grand Trunk Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway bridges, there is enough space to allow of a bridge to be built for the use of vehicles and pedestrians. The piers of the two bridges are placed opposite one another so that it would be a simple matter to put steel beams across on which to build the platform.
As the hon. gentlemen can see at page 11 of the Orders of the Day, I have moved a resolution which reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, a committee consisting of live members should be appointed by this Government to ascertain if it is possible, and under what conditions, carriageways and foot-paths communicating between the mainland and the Island of Montreal, on the south, the west and the north sides of the latter, might be established, by using for that purpose the bridges of the Canadian Pacific Railway between Lachine and the Caughnawaga Reserve ; those of the Canadian Pacific and Grand Trunk railways between Ste. Anne de Bellevue and Vaudreuil; and that of the Canadian Northern Railway to the north of Isle Bizard; such committee to have power to sit during and after the present session and to report during the next session, the services of such members to be gratuitous.
According to the rules of the House, I am precluded from introducing this resolution tc-day, but I hope before the close of the session to have the opportunity of putting it through.
My hon. friend from Rouville asked the minister a while ago to find the means for having this work carried out at as early a date as possible. If a committee were appointed, such as I have suggested, its members could interview those two railway companies, get all the information required, find out on what terms those bridges could be erected and whether their engineers find that the bridges could be built where I have indicated in my motion. It seems to me we must get that information as to means and terms before coming before this House or before the Quebec Legislature with a request for help. I therefore heartily endorse the suggestion made to the minister that he do his best as far as he is concerned to carry out this important work,

which has been asked for many years past and is absolutely necessary to the prosperity of the great city of Montreal, the heart of the province of Quebec.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Aye, and of
Canada.


Joseph-Adélard Descarries: And, as the hon.
member for Rouville is stating, of all Canada. I then join with those of my hon. colleagues who are interested in that work in an endeavour to have it carried out. Thousands of dollars are being voted here and there, in many places in the different provinces, for public works of no well defined public utility. I believe no amount would be better spent than that which would go to building this bridge. I, for one, realize that there is absolute need' of such a structure between St. Anne and Vaudreuil to open up communication between Quebec and. Ontario. There is none other than at this point, and to-day any one going across from Montreal to Upper Canada must cross there, that is at St. Anne in an old ferry pulled by oars, to Perrot island and then take another ferry to cross from the island to Vaudreuil. I say without hesitation that such a methtod of travelling or transportation at this stage of our development is unworthy of Canada's progress. Any one going to the United States from Lachine or Montreal has to cross the river by way of the Victoria bridge and cover a long distance to no purpose whatever; while if the crossing could be effected from La-chine to Caughnawaga we should have the shortest possible route to the American side.
Last Sunday, intending to go to Chateau-guay-I must explain that between La-chine and the south shore the river is a little over a mile across-I was forced to go to Montreal, take the Victoria bridge, circle the lake in front of Laprairie, and come back opposite Lachine. By that circuitous way I had to drive thirty miles uselessly. I may he allowed to say that when I reached the Canadian Pacific railway bridge, on the road to the reserve at Caughnawaga, my car ran into a gully, and I had to get a team of horses to pull me out. Other cars met with the same fate and have had to be pulled out by horses.
If we built a bridge between Lachine and Caughnawaga, which could be easily done, a long distance would be saved, and, moreover, there would be opened one of the most beautiful and most frequented roads, because it is current, as we know, that Montreal will builfl its driveways along the aque-


MAST 9. 1910
[Stage Direction]
duct. Starting from Montreal and taking by the driveways, one would get directly to Lachine, right opposite Caughnawaga. On that side of the river, at Caughnawaga, there is the right-of-way, or roadbed, of an old railroad, which is not now in operation. That road leads from Caughnawaga to Hemmingsford, and, if I mistake not, opens a straight connection between Caughnawaga and the United States.
Charles Marcil: Before the hon. member proceeds any further, I would ask him if he wants a separate bridge, or what kind of a structure he proposes?


Joseph-Adélard Descarries: I think the same thing could be done there as with the Victoria bridge, that is, a widening of the present structure. I fail to see why the same plan could not be followed in connection with the Canadian Pacific railway bridge at that point. That bridge is quite heavy, it has even been doubled; a second bridge has been built alongside the other, so that there is a large quantity of iron in it, and the proposed road could be built without in the least straining the bridge.
My hon. friend from Bonaventure spoke about another structure, which is also mentioned in my resolution, connecting Bizard island and St. Dorothee, at the north end of the island of Montreal. At that point the river narrows considerably; there are, I believe, only two piers in deep water under the Great Northern railway bridge, so that without great expense a road could be built for the use of vehicles and pedestrians. These bridges would give easy access to Montreal from all parts of the country.


Charles Marcil: I may point out to my hon. friend that the late Government had required the Great Northern Railway Company to build a highway bridge on the road at the other end of the island, at Charlemagne. His proposition is on the same principle?


Joseph-Adélard Descarries: I was just going to mention that circumstance. I was saying that Montreal would have roads leading to it from all sides, and, as my hon. friend has just stated, there is the Laurier bridge at Charlemagne, giving access to the island at that end.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And it is free.


Joseph-Adélard Descarries: Yes, the Laurier
bridge is free. On the east we have the Victoria bridge, where we have to pay toll;
229i
on the south, we should then have the bridge at Lachine; on the west, the bridge at St. Anne, and on the northwest, the bridge to Bizard island.
I urge on the hon. minister and on alii the members of this House who are interested in this question, to join together in common endeavour to realize those great public works which are necessary to the country's development, because obviously they would contribute to a large extent not only to the advancement of the counties which those bridges would tap, but also to the progress of Montreal, of the province of Quebec, and of the country a3 a whole.


Mr. MORRIS:: I am very much pleased that the hon. member for Jacques Cartier has brought this matter to the attention of the committee, and it gives me pleasure to back up a few of the statements that he has made. While this matter may not be looked on very seriously by many members of this House, I can assure gentlemen that it is of the most vital importance not only to the people of my county, but to the whole district, as well as to the city of Montreal. We all admit to-day that Montreal is the metropolis of Canada, and when we stop to consider that there is but one means of access to the city of Montreal by teams it certainly makes us feel that we are a little behind the times. Then there is another phase of the matter, apart from the international view that my hon. friend has taken, that is worthy of the consideration of this Parliament. I speak of the local phase of the question. My county, the county of Chateauguay, is very much interested in this measure. We have to-day throughout the greater part of Chateauguay and Huntingdon macadamized roads. In, my election in 1913 the question was put to me: "Will you assist us in getting direct communication with Montreal?" I said: " Friends, I will do my duty in that respect." I have attempted to do so, I have succeeded in obtaining certain works that were necessary along that line. But this question that my hon. friend has brought is one of great importance, and I am pleased to-day to endorse what he has said, and to attempt in. a feeble way to lay before this House the requirements of the southern portion of the province of Quebec. Situated as we are, as my hon. friend has said, we have to go almost around the city of Montreal in order to reach that city. We have to-day macadamized roads. Some time ago the project was mooted of establishing

a line of communication by auto trucks from my county and the county of Huntingdon direct to Montreal, but we were held up for want of direct communication. We come before this Parliament to-day asking to have this matter taken into consideration, inasmuch as it will benefit not only the southern part of the province of Quebec, but the city of Montreal as well. My county is one of the best in the whole province of Quebec for market gardening, and in that respect it could supply one of the greatest needs of the city of Montreal to-day. Hon. members are aware that the 'bulk of the garden stuff used in Montreal is imported from the United States. Why is that? Simply because the people in the immediate vicinity of Montreal have not free access to that city. If we had proper means of access to Montreal, the bulk of the farmers of my county would -be engaged in market gardening. They have the soil for it; they have people w(ho understand the work, but they require direct communication. I confine my remarks to this bridge between Lachine and Caughnawaga, inasmuch as it interests me and the people I represent, as well as the people to the south of us. If we had that direct communication we would, before two months, establish a line of trucks that would carry the produce of our counties direct to the city of Montreal, the farmers in Huntingdon and Chateauguay could load their produce on trucks in the early morning and place it on the Montreal market in the forenoon. This is a matter worthy of the consideration of this House, and I hope that the minister and the Government will take into consideration the appointing of such a commission as my hon. friend has asked for. Let us endeavour to do something for the southern part of the province of Quebec. As you all know, probably no other part of the province or the whole Dominion has received so little attention as the county I represent. The county of Chateauguay, as I said on a former occasion, has never come begging to this Parliament. The people of that country are independent people, and probably the necessity for Dominion Government aid has not existed in the past. But to-day the question presents itself in a light that I hope hon. members will realize. I hope they will give due consideration to this question and that before the session ends steps will be taken to give to the people of southern Quebec 
the accommodation which they 4 p.m. so need. This will be in the interest not only of the counties I have mentioned but of the city of Montreal. I tsincerely truet that the Government will give serious consideration to the suggestion of my hon. friend.


Robert Rogers: I do not know that I can add very much to what I said the other evening in respect to this important matter. I quite appreciate how thoroughly the hon.. members of this 'House, especially those from the province of Quebec and the province of Ontario, realize the importance and the necessity for a bridge at lie Perrot. I know how insistent my hon. friend from Chateauguay has been in pressing this matter, and I am sure that his remarks today will tend to impress on every member of the House the pressing need of this important public work. In view of the greatly increased mileage that it is necessary to travel in order to get on the island of Montreal, it is likely that the cost of a bridge at lie Perrot would be easily saved in the 'reduced consumption of gasoline in the many motors that now have to travel around in order to reach the centre of the city. The hon. member has said that he has a resolution on the Order Paper in connection with the suggestion of appointing a commission to deal with this important subject, and also with the question of the construction of a bridge between the Grand Trunk and the 'Canadian Pacific Railway bridges. I have not in mind at the moment the exact distance between those two bridges, but I fancy it is not very great, although it is probably sufficient to permit the construction of a highway bridge between the two railway bridges. I do not know whether that plan would be feasible or not. I have no hesitation in saying that if there is a work in the nature of the construction of bridges in any part of Canada that it is desirable to carry out, this particular work takes first place. It is true, as the hon. member for Bonaventure has stated, that we also have to cross the canal. Of course, we can always impose on the Department of Railways and Canals the responsibility of building a bridge across a canal, whenever and wherever it is necessary to do so in the public interest. But we have the other and perhaps the larger difficulty of getting across the river before we reach the canal. This is a work which belongs to the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, if we are to regard it as an inter-

provincial undertaking. I . have had the pleasure of receiving large deputations from both Quebec and Ontario, who apparently have a very deep interest in the construction of this bridge. I appreciate the importance of the work for the island of Montreal. It is remarkable that that island, with its very great population of 700,000 or 800,000 people, has been able to get along so long without this communication between it and the city of Toronto. Recognizing the force of-the representations made in this connection, I take pleasure in saying that if the matter should be taken up by the twro provinces of Quebec and Ontario, I shall be pleased to join with them, as representing the Department of Public Works; and if we can do nothing else under our present law, we can always find some way fQr making grants to the provinces to assist in such an undertaking. I shall endeavour to have the matter taken up before the next session and to have it so adjusted between the two provinces and the Department of Public Works, that I shall be able to come to Parliament and ask Parliament to vote one-third of the assistance necessary to carry on, in conjunction with these two provinces, the construction of this necessary work at He Perrot.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I am glad to hear the Minister of Public Works express his viewB upon the importance of interprovincial bridges. I am sure he will not forget the interprovincial bridge which is proposed between Campbell-ton and a point in the county of Bonaventure. No doubt my hon. friend is aware of the importance of the town of Campbellton. It is the feeder of the northern part of New Brunswick and the eastern part of the G-aspb peninsula, and the people of -that town labour under great difficulties through not having communication with the surrounding country. I know that the hon. minister will take into consideration the application which will -soon be made in connection with the building of this important interprovincial bridge.	*
While we are on this important subject, I wish to urge upon the minister the importance of international bridges. An application was made to the Department of Public Works two months ago for a grant to enable an international bridge to be built between the itown of Edmunston and the state of Maine. We all recognize the importance of int-erprovincial bridges, and in my opinion international bridges are also important. About three yea-rs ago there
' was a -serious accident in connection with the ferry from Edmund-ston and almost every year -a few lives are lost in the operation of the ferry boats. The state of Maine has voted $10,000 to show their good faith in connection with the proposal to construct an- international bridge. The Minister of Public Works is probably aware of the facts which I am stating, but I would emphasize the importance of building this bridge. The construction of an -international bridge between E-dmundston and the -state of Maine would contribute greatly to the -advantage of the Canadian people. lEdmundston has a population of over 2,000, and they look to -the Government for assistance in this matter.


Robert Rogers: Perhaps my hon. friend was. not in- the House when a few moments ago I dealt with the question of the Campbellton bridge and -stated that we had made a survey, but that nothing further had been done owing to the very heavy cost involved. With regard to international bridges, we have an item -of $29,000 in the Estimates to provide our share of the cost of the international bridge over the St. John river between Glair in New Brunswick and Port Kent in the state of .Maine. We have had several deputations upon the subject, and we are ready to fulfil our part as soon as the -state of Maine is ready to carry out theirs.


Pius Michaud: There is nothing in the Estimates to provide for the bridge between Edmundston and the state of Maine.


Robert Rogers: No, not for that.


Pius Michaud: The state of Maine has already voted $10,000 for that purpose, and there is a risk of losing that subsidy if we are not prepared to meet them half way. I called upon the minister two- months ago with reference to this proposed bridge and I was informed that he would be ready to meet the Americans half way. I am sorry that he has not seen his way to make some provision because there is great risk of losing what the state of Maine has voted.
Moosejaw-Wood Mountain telegraph line- renewal of poles, $5,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: While we are on the
subject of telegraph and telephone lines, has the minister inquired' about the poles in the county of Charlevoix to which I referred the other day?


Robert Rogers: The deputy informs me
that the telegraph branch of the department is making inquiry, and he expects a report

in a day or two. When I receive that report I will send my hon. friend a copy.


Mr. McKENZIE:: A few evenings ago I brought up the question of the operation of the telegraph lines in the county of Victoria, and, on reading the minister's statement in Hansard, I found that he had stated that he deprecated what I had said. If I understand the meaning of the word " deprecated," it is that he did not believe what I said. I stated on that occasion that the telegraph line was improperly used during a provincial election, that it was taken charge of by the managers of the campaign, and that it was used for a whole month for election purposes without a charge' of one cent being made for the use of the lines, 120 miles or 140 miles in extent, and of all the offices and branches. I stated that as a matter of fact, and I ask the minister to believe me unless he can find any evidence to the contrary. I stated on my reputation for veracity in this House that that was true. I further state that the manager of the line, and of the largest office, has since admitted upon his oath in a court of law every word I have said. That is a matter of record in the courts of the province of Nova Scotia, and if the minister deprecates what I say I want him to look up the records of the court of Mr. Justice Russell, who tried the election case and read the sworn evidence of Mr. David Dunlop, who was the superintendent of the line, and the operator, who admitted on his oath that he had taken charge of the line, that he had not collected fees, that he had not made any return to the department, and that he had never been asked to make a return. These are absolutely clear-cut facts sworn to, and upon that I say I state my reputation as a member of this House. I do not want any minister to stand up in this House and say that he deprecates the statements made by a member unless he has evidence to the contrary.


Robert Rogers: Before my hon. friend goes any further I would like to say that I have read the report of my remarks in Hansard, but I can assure him that	what I	said had not the
meaning which he takes out of it. I do not know whether [DOT]the word was used or not, or whether it was used in the sense in which he describes it; but whether it was used or not, I want to assure .my hon. friend that I accepted his, word without any question at all in my mind that he

was stating exactly the facts as he found themw I wish to say to my hon. friend here that I regret very much to learn that such a state of affairs should have existed, and to assure him that I am looking into it, and I will see that it shall not occur again. It is an unfortunate position of affairs that our telegraph, lines in various parts of Canada are not as secret to the users as they should be. To my knowledge that applies to the large lines in Canada as well as to the local Government lines. Every effort should be made by every member of this House, and certainly every effort will be made by myself, to correct .such a condition as my hon. friend complains of, and, the facts being what they are, justly complains of. I will be glad to take every means to correct the condition and rectify it so that my hon. friend will have no cause for complaint in the future.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I thought from the hon. gentleman's tone of voice that he had no belief in what I said. The acoustics of this place are wretched, and you cannot always be sure what is said across the floor, and I thought that the minister did not believe what I was saying, because the word " deprecate," as I understand it, means that you do not believe a statement that is made. If the hon. gentleman says that he deprecated the action of those who would use the telegraph lines as I have stated, that is a different proposition altogether.


Robert Rogers: That is right.
Vancouver Island telegraph and telephone lines-extensions, $9,000.


Mr. OLIVER:: I wish to ask a question or two with regard to the preceding items if I may... I notice, that there is a vote of $500 for repairs and improvements to the office building at House River in connection with the Fort McMurray telegraph line. What accommodation is there at McMurray, House River, Pelican portage, and Calling River for the telegraph offices? Are they in rented buildings, or does the.Government own the buildings?


Robert Rogers: I am afraid I have not that information. I will give my hon. friend the information that I have with regard to this particular item. This is an item of $500 for repairs and improvements to the office building at House River. District Superintendent McDonald, under date of the 21st October, 1915, writes as follows:
It has been found expedient, instead of erecting a building, to purchase from Fred Taylor,

House River, the building in which our office has been located. This action meets with appro, val of all the people. The building is log, 1G x 28 feet one and a half stories high and the addition thereto is 10 x 16 covered with rub-beroid roofing. The price paid for the building is $500 and the expenditure of another $500 will be necessary to put it in good repair.


Frank Oliver: This is not a matter of importance, but I would like to be certain if the offices at Calling River and Pelican Portage are merely offices in buildings belonging to private citizens or are offices supplied by the Government as at House River. Apparently the Government is going to own the office building at House River, and I wished to know what the situation was in regard to the other two places and also at McMurray.


Robert Rogers: The deputy will take a note of that and give my hon. friend the information. I could not give it to him correctly.


Frank Oliver: At McMurray, as well as the other two places. For the office at lake Saskatoon I see there is a revote of $400. Does the Government own that office?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Frank Oliver: That is just for repairs
and improvements?	-


Robert Rogers: To complete the office
building at lake Saskatoon.


Frank Oliver: What are the rough details of the vote of $11,000 for renewals, repairs and improvements to the Peace River line, and is it intended to make the expenditure this year?


Robert Rogers: Yes. The $11,000 is required for renewing poles from Edmonton to Athabaska, 98 miles, at $100 per mile; for a well and repairs to the building at Grouard and for a well and repairs to the building at Peace River Crossing, $500 each.


Frank Oliver: Does the Government own the building at Peace River Crossing?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Frank Oliver: Might I revert to the desirability of the extension of the line now running from Athabaska Landing via Plam-ohdonville to Lac la Biche and also to Lac la Biche station, which I mentioned a few days ago? Has there been any further consideration given to the suggestion?


Robert Rogers: When the matter was brought up on the last occasion in the House it was referred to the telegraph department, and they are getting a report. We expect to have it in a day or two.


Frank Oliver: I hope the department
will consider the matter favourably with a view to establishing a connection this summer, because it would be a very great convenience to the public and it would really be to the benefit of the revenues of the line. The Lac la Biche station is, and will be, a town and has railway communication. There is an important hotel there; it will be connected with the boating and fishing on the lake and in every way it will be very desirable to have telegraphic communication. The railway company do not intend to put in a telegraph service as they propose operating with the telephone. If the department can look upon this matter favourably, and can carry out this extension with a reasonable amount of celerity, it will be a great convenience to the public there.


Robert Rogers: We sent the department a copy of the remarks made the other evening by the hon. gentleman, and asked for a report. As soon as it comes I will let my hon. friend have a copy.


Frank Oliver: I am under the impression that I mentioned it last year and received a somewhat similar and equally favourable reply from the minister but so far there has not been any result.


Robert Rogers: We will see if we cannot arrange it this year.
Levis graving dock-further amount required, $3,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is this for the old dock?


Robert Rogers: Yes. This amount is required for purchasing the blocks that go under the ships.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How are you getting
along with the new dock?


Robert Rogers: Pretty well. It is hoped the work will be completed this fall, but we are not quite sure.
Prince Edward Island-Bay Fortune-breakwater extension, $5,000.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: My hon. friend from
Kings, who was obliged to leave, asked me to get some information from the minister. First of all, is this amount of $5,000 for the breakwater extension at Bay Fortune to be expended during the coming year? The vote would indicate that it is not for Tepairs, but for new work. If it is for an extension, I am informed that $5,000 would not go very far. Is the amount required for repairs or for extending the length of the wharf?


Robert Rogers: This amount is required for the construction of an extension to the breakwater at Bay Fortune. The work is required for the improvement, by securing, of a shoa'l sandbar at the entrance of the harbour, so as to facilitate the import of coal, lime, lumber, etc., and export of surplus farm produce from a large and rich agricultural district. During 1914-15 about $2,000 was expended in repairing and raising, for an average of 3 feet, the outer 300 feet of the old work; also placing in fenders, ties, ballast, etc., and covering the outer block. Foreman, W. Aitkens; rate of pay, $2.50 per day. The engineer evidently thinks we shall be able to do the work satisfactorily for $5,000.


William Pugsley: What is- to be the total length of the wharf?


Robert Rogers: It does not appear to be given here.


William Pugsley: What will be the total cost?


Robert Rogers: It is estimated that before completion it will cost $12,000.


William Pugsley: Another question the hon. member desires me to .ask is why it is not proposed to go on with the construction of a boat harbour at North Lake, an item for which has been in the Estimates for quite a number of years, and to expend $5,000 alt Bay Fortune, when the work at North Lake is more urgently required and will be much more useful than the work at Bay Fortune?


Robert Rogers: With regard to North Lake, we have had a great deal of difficulty in getting the people to sign, for the right of way and the land required for the work. The question of damages has been in dispute for some time, and has not been [DOT]settled yet.


William Pugsley: The minister must be wrong if my information i-s correct, because it appears by a return, I am informed, that the matter was adjusted to the satisfaction of the Government last June when tenders were called for.


Robert Rogers: The deputy informs me that my statement is correct. When we called for tenders we depended upon getting a bond from some parties indemnifying us against damages and so on, but we have not received it yet.


William Pugsley: The hon. member for Kings is greatly impressed with the importance of repairing the breakwater at

Souris. He says that a year ago $144,000 was spent on an extension to the Souris breakwater. This, he says, is the most important public work in Prince Edward Island. A few weeks or a few months after the work was completed a storm of no more than ordinary violence made a breach in the -seaward side and carried away a portion of the new work, and every storm since has widened the breach. The hon. member is much surprised that nothing has been provided for repairs this year, and alleges that if the work is allowed to stand without being repaired, great damage will be done to the breakwater, and a great deal of money which has been expended will be lost. Has the minister any report with regard to the damage done to the breakwater, and is it proposed to ask for any amount this year to make the necessary repairs?


Robert Rogers: The engineer does not see the necessity for an expenditure this year, but later on something will have to be done. His report is as follows:
A contract for the 400 feet breakwater extension was awarded Beazley Brothers, Limited, on 18th October, 1912, at price of their tender, $143,917. The work was constructed according,, to plan and specification forwarded by the then District Engineer, J. B. Hegan. In November, 1914, when the work was nearing completion, 8 tiers of face timbers of the outer block became displaced from some cause which District Engineer Hyndman stated was difficult to explain, but was probably due to settlement. Mr. Hyndman certified that the work had been done faithfully and according to plan and specification, and that the damage was due to unusual and unforeseen circumstances. In July, 1915, the breakwater was again damaged by a heavy storm after the original breach had been repaired and reinforced according to specification. Consulting Engineer Hegan was then instructed to make an examination of the work. He reported that he did not consider that the injury sustained by the work resulted from either the use of poor materials or indifferent workmanship, but simply from unavoidable causes, as, so far as he could ascertain, the requirements and conditions called for by the contract, specification and plan, were fully and faithfully carried out.
Public Works-chargeable to income-public buildings, Nova Scotia-Halifax custom house, $2,470.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the Minister of Public Works please state what progress is being made with the proposed extension to the custom house at North Sydney? Last year, I think, there was a vote to build an examining house in connection with the custom house there. I did not notice whether the work went on or not. I know that they 'have a place rented in connection

with the building, but if the money is available a new building would be better.


Robert Rogers: Nothing is being done at present in this matter, and we think that for the present we can get on as we are.
Public buildings-rents, repairs, furniture, heating, etc.. $130,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why this supplementary vote? Surely the minister knows what rents he has to pay. Why not include all in the main Estimates?


Robert Rogers: Since the outbreak of the war the staff has been very greatly increased, and the aggregate charge for rents is higher. But I may say, for the information of my hon. friend, in the first place, that we do not rent anything that is not absolutely necessary, and, in the second place, that when we rent we have a basis upon which the rental is fixed-we allow only enough to pay six per cent net return to the owner.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That would depend on who made up the estimate of cost.


Robert Rogers: The Deputy Minister of Public Works himself makes that up-gives special attention to it. This heavy expense for rents cannot be avoided at the present tipie-
Public Works-chargeable to collection of revenue-telegraph and telephone lines, Saskatchewan and Alherta-further amount required, $17,500.


Frank Oliver: What is this for?


Robert Rogers: This is to supplement an appropriation granted by Parliament last session to -complete payments in connection with the working expenses of the telegraph lines in. the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta.


William Pugsley: This is for the last fiscal year. Is the minister allowed so long a time to make up the accounts for the year? As I recollect it, the Auditor General allowed a certain time, but it is nearly two months since the close of the fiscal year.


Robert Rogers: There is no fixed time, but the direction is given by the Auditor General. We are allowed until the close of the session, I understand.


William Pugsley: And the time is not so long as I had figured-it is only a little over one month.
Miscellaneous-Royal Mint-further amount required, $43,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the purpose of this?
iSir THOMAS WHITE: The Mint has been doing a great deal of work during the past year for the British Government in treating gold that has been received from Africa and other parts of the world-I am not permitted to go into details for reasons that will be obvious. This $43,000 is the estimated additional expense. The charges made will, in a large measure, if not fully, reimburse the amount expended.
National Battlefields Commission-to supplement amount now available for purchase of lands, the acquisition of which has been authorized by Parliament, a sum not exceeding $10,-
000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is the matter to which reference has been made.


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: This is the matter to which my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition drew attention the other day. It was in the original plan of the commission. The purpose of the appropriation is to. acquire certain properties there-Wolfsfield and certain other historic land's.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has anything ever been done in connection with the lands left at the old ruins- at Louisburg? An English gentleman who died there -some years ago, Captain Kennedy, formerly of the British army, left some lands to be used for the purpose of commemorating the wars of Louisburg days-. In his will he made certain provision that the lands were to be utilized by the Dominion Government, subject to certain conditions. I do not remember just what -the conditions were, but they had regard to some action on the part of the -Government of Canada to put these lands in shape and to do some work around the forts that would put them in better condition. I have not the full details of the provisions of the will, but I thought that possibly the minister might bear it in mind in connection with the operations of the National Battlefields Commission.
-Sir THOMAS WHITE: The matter has not been specially drawn to my attention, but the desirability of some commission being charged with the duty of preserving historic spots is a subject which has been frequently discussed- in the House. I shall bear in mind what my hon. friend has said with regard to the Louisburg -situation.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I need not remind the minister that the -Society of 'Colonial Wars, which is an American society, has built a monument on those grounds. It is some part of what is being done to commemorate the old days at Louisburg.
Canadian Associated Press, $8,000.


George Perry Graham: Who is the European representative of the Canadian Association?


Robert Rogers: There has been no change; it is the same.


George Perry Graham: Are you aware that this does not include a representative in the old land?


Robert Rogers: John Ross- Robertson's
brother used to be the representative years ago, but I do not know who has taken his place since his death.


William Thomas White: I have taken this matter up with Mr. John Ross Robertson, as President, I think, of the Canadian Associated Press. My hon. friend will recall that, under legislation which expired some two years a-go, an annual grant was made to the Association from $12,000 downward; I think the last payment was in the neighbourhood of $6,000 or $7,000. Last year, instead of re-introducing the legislation-because I desired to discuss the matter with representatives of the press-I introduced an Estimate providing to -continue the amount which had been paid in the preceding year. This year the matter was again drawn- to my attention, and I have inserted an Estimate of $8,000, which is now before the Committee. I think that the object is one which appeals to us, especially at this time, because it is closely connected witlh the question of the news service from the old country. If ever there was a time when the newspapers ought to be helped by a justifiable subsidy, it is now.


George Perry Graham: We agree pretty well on the necessity of this vote. There was a time when newspapers in Canada were not satisfied with the service. A great deal of our news for some length of time used to come via New York, and we discovered that that was not the most reliable kind of information to get, particularly for Canadian consumption. I am a little out of touch with it; the member for South York would know the conditions as they exist now better than I would. I know that they were unsatisfactory for a time, but from a casual observation I should think that the service is more satisfactory now than it was some years ago.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: It is very much
improved.
To provide for the administration of the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916: appointments for the purpose may be made without reference to the provisions of the Civil Service Act, $150,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is an
important matter.


William Thomas White: This item is to provide for the expenditure in connection with the administration of the Business Profits War Tax Act which has been passed at this session of Parliament. When the matter was under discussion in the House, I explained in a general way the plan of administration which we had in view. The Act will be administered through the Finance Department. We shall have to add to the existing staff and we shall have to supplement that staff by officials in the several provinces. All business firms and corporations in Canada which have a capital of $50,000 and upwards will be liable to assessment, provided their earnings exceed 10 per cent in the case of private firms and individuals and 7 per cent in the case of corporations. The first thing to be done is to make a list from the publications of commercial agencies showing the firms which are likely to be liable to assessment. This has been done already by my department. The next step -will be to notify all these firms thought to be liable to assessment requesting them to make the return called for by the Act. In order to get the administration to that stage it will be necessary that \ the staff of the Finance Department be considerably enlarged and that additional officials be taken on in the several provinces. After the returns come in, they will have to be scrutinised and further investigation made in many cases in order that the final assessment by the department may be made. After the final assessment is made, notices will be sent out to the various firms and companies liable to assessment informing them of the amount of their assessment. Then there will be a right of appeal in the case of any feeling themselves aggrieved to the court of revision or board of referees referred to in the Act. It is not possible at the present time to make an accurate estimate as to how much the expenditure will be in connection with the administration of the Act, but it would seem to us that $150,000 would likely more than cover it. I cannot vouch for that statement, because I do not know the facts.	*


Wilfrid Laurier: It is easily to be understood that the matter is rather tentative, and that at the present time my hon. friend cannot be expected to have an absolutely exa'ct plan to which he cares to give his authority. The minister must have a large clerical staff to perform the work arising from this new system of taxation. I think we should take some exception to the provision inserted, " appointments for the purpose may be made without reference to the provisions of the Civil Service Act." I do not think my hon. friend should take so much power as that. I am prepared to believe that some of these appointments must be technical, and that for them a technical business knowledge will be indispensable. As to these there may be special recommendations by my hon. friend under the Civil Service Act. But my hon. friend must have a large clerical staff attached to his office, and there is no reason why the provisions of the Act should not be applied. I am afraid that, under the administration of my hon. friends on the other side, the Civil Service Act is becoming largely obsolete, and that it is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. Still it is a very good law and one which I think ought to be welcomed by every Government. It saves every minister a lot of trouble, and it is a better way of insuring effective service than any other. Why my hon. friend should say that all appointments, even that of the merest clerk, should be made without conforming to the Civil Service Act, to me is incomprehensible. It is a very dangerous principle.


William Thomas White: There are some
considerations in connection with this matter which have been overlooked by my right hon. friend. In the first place, the administration of this Act is for a limited period; the Act is operative only until December 31, 1917. Therefore, we shall not be making permanent appointments, but only appointments of officials for the purpose of carrying out the Act during the limited period in which it will be in operation. I gave this matter a good deal of consideration, particularly this clause to which my hon. friend has referred. The difficulty which I encountered is this. We have to appoint officials in	the	several provincesto assist in the administration of this Act.	The	type	of official
that we should like would be men with experience in finance, such as accountants who are familiar with joint stock companies, or have had banking experience.
Under the Civil Service Act a man could not be appointed if he was over 35 years of age. It is going to be exceedingly difficult to get the right class of men to carry out this Act, especially at this 5 p.m. time, when the country is sending so many men to the front.
I am faced with a very real difficulty at the present time. Therefore I do not think my right hon. friend would suggest, in view of what I have said, that we should be confined by the regulations of the Civil Service Act in appointing the officials we shall require in the several provinces to assist us in carrying out the terms of this Act. Now I come to our own office. We shall require some accountants in connection with our office, and from the difficulties I have already experienced I am not at all sure that we should be able to obtain them under the Civil Service Act. In fact, I am sure we should not be able to obtain them. So far as clerks and typewriters are concerned, the employment will be temporary. Only recently I said to my deputy that we should retain the staff which, was temporarily employed in-connection with the war loan, to assist us in connection with the administration of this Act. There may be further war loans later on. The situation in the Finance Department at present is that we have a considerable temporary staff, which has been engaged in connection with the war loan, the last instalment of which was only recently paid. We shall endeavour to use that staff to the extent possible in connection with the administration of this Act; but we must have accountants and those having business experience if we are to carry this out at all successfully. My right hon. friend and I do not disagree so far as principle is concerned. But in connection with this measure, it is not my view that it would be practicable to obtain the assistance that we shall require under the provisions of the Civil Service Act, and consequently this proviso has been inserted.


Wilfrid Laurier: I realize that a good many of the appointments must be technical-people who have special technical knowledge of business; but I am quite positive that under the Act as it exists today, section 21, if I remember aright, my hon. friend has the right himself to appoint, without referring to the Civil Service Commission, men technically qualified. But he has the Act to guide him, and he should use it. The temporary appointments are also covered by the Act, and there is no reason why the ordinary clerks, whether

temporary or permanent, should not be appointed under the provisions of the Civil Service Act.
Mr. MARCIL; Will these assessments on the companies be made payable at a certain period in one lump sum?


William Thomas White: They will be
payable on November 1st in respect of the first financial period of the company or firm which is being assessed. Only one payment in one year is the principle.


Charles Marcil: The minister has not considered the idea of splitting these payments so as not to make them fall too heavily on those paying them?


William Thomas White: My hon. friend is aware that the Act does not apply except in the case of individuals, firms, or companies having at least $50,000 capital, and I think no hardship is likely to arise under the mode of payment provided for in the Act.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: If there is only one payment in one year it will last over until 1918?


William Thomas White: Yes.


George Perry Graham: In case the Department suspect that a statement submitted by any company is not accurate, what do they do?


William Thomas White: That is why we have the official or officials in each province. We shall ask them to make an investigation and see the individual or firm or company in question and check up the statement to see if it is accurate.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: After you get the statement from the corporation, you send out a statement of what you think the tax should be. Then if there is a dispute the Board of Reference comes in?


William Thomas White: We would not necessarily accept the statement. If we had reason to believe that the statement was not accurate, it would be the duty of our officials to interview the party in question and check up the statement so made.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Before referring it to the Board of Referees?


William Thomas White: Then, in'the light of the -statement and the checking up, an estimate would be made and notice sent to that firm: "You are assessed for so much in respect of the Business Profits War Taxation Act, 1916."


George Perry Graham: The department does all of this through its own machinery. In municipal assessments an appeal may be taken by one individual against the assessment of some other individual. William Smith thinks it is not equitable, and he appeals against the assessment of John Brown, say. Will that -sort of thing come into play or will the department take all the responsibility?


William Thomas White: The department will take all the responsibility. I do not think it desirable that that element' should be introduced. In municipalities one man can appeal against the assessment of another; hut, so far as Dominion taxation is concerned, that principle has not been applied. In matters affecting customs taxation, only parties in- interest are allowed to raise any question; otherwise you might have a situation which would lead to a great deal of petty controversy.


George Perry Graham: I do not think it would be a good situation. There is nothing to hinder a man from giving information to to the department.


William Thomas White: The Government and the party assessed are the only parties in interest.


Charles Marcil: Will the amount paid by each party be published or become known?


William Thomas White: If Parliament desired returns as to the results of this measure, the returns would be brought down.
To defray the expenses of printing for dis. tribution 4,000 copies of the report of the Federal Plan Commission of Ottawa and Hull, $2,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would like
to know, now that we have the plan of the commission, what are the plans of the Government in regard to carrying out what is suggested by the commission.


William Thomas White: My right hon.
friend was not in the House the other day when the question was raised by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux). I stated that I intended, as soon as the session was over, to take up the report of the commission, go over the ground, and give the matter my personal attention. I know that my right hon. friend is very much interested in this question. I fbelieve that a committee has- been appointed by the City Council for the purpose of taking it up with the Government at a convenient time. I am greatly pleased that the plans

appear to have met with the approval of the citizens of Ottawa and of the members of this House, so far as I can learn. It is generally considered that the commission has done its work well. My right hon. friend naturally asks what is the next step. So far as I am concerned, the next step will be to make myself thoroughly conversant with the recommendations of the commission, and the Government will be prepared to take up the matter with the city of Ottawa and to consider what step ought to be taken next. My right hon. friend is aware that the object of preparing this plan was that there should be a model to which the Government and the city 'of Ottawa, the city of Hull, and the transportation companies could work over a long course of years. It was thought that it would be of use to all the different bodies I have mentioned, and that is its chief value. But there are certain explicit recommendations which we shall have to take up with the view of seeing whether and when they should be carried out, and that is a matter to which we shall give consideration as soon as we can find time after the session is over. I have not had time during the present :ses-sion, since the report was presented, more than cursorily to glance over it, much less to go over it in detail.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have looked over the Teport-I take some interest in this matter-and I must say that on the whole the commission has done very good work. There are some suggestions to which I will take exception-we cannot-all agree -but I am satisfied to know that the minister will take up the report of the commission and study it as soon as possible. I know that he has been very busy during the session, and he cannot be expected to do more than, take it up, after the session is over, with the committee of the city council. The work is very extensive; it is a work for years; and if something can be done now, it would be very advisable to do it.
To defray the expenses of the Economic and Development Commission, $25,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Will some one explain what this is?


Robert Laird Borden: It is a commission which has been at work during the past five or six months studying economic conditions in this country, more particularly in regard to what preparation may be necessary for us in respect of the period
immediately following the conclusion of the war.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The Prime Minister says "us"; to whom does he refer?


Robert Laird Borden: I am speaking of the country, of course; it is very often referred to in that way. I hope my hon. friend does not take exception to it?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I wondered whether it meant the Government or the people.


Robert Laird Borden: Their interests are identical.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Not always.


Robert Laird Borden: According to the appreciation of my hon. friend, perhaps not; according to our appreciation, they are always.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who are the
members of that commission?


Robert Laird Borden: The commission is under the presidency of Senator Loug-heed.


Wilfrid Laurier: A good man.


Robert Laird Borden: The other members are Mr. Farrell, from British Columbia; Dr. Rutherford, from Alberta; Mr. Hopkins, from Saskatchewan; Mr. William Smith, from Ontario, a member of this House; Mr. W. B. Ross, a gentleman engaged in the fruit industry in Nova Scotia, and Mr. Rolland, of Montreal. They have a considerable number of people associated with them who are carrying on a great deal of research work and investigation. They are in touch with, the staffs of certain universities who are doing a certain amount of research work. Mr. William Pearce, formerly associated with the Canadian Pacific railway, has made a careful study of railway development in connection with land settlement, and has prepared plans which, I understand, are of a very important character, and which have been spoken of very highly by those who have had an opportunity of examining them. I have been asked to do so on more than one occasion, but I have not found time to avail myself of the opportunity during the present session. I understand from Senator Lougheed, who asked me to examine the work which Mr. Pearce has done, that it is of an important character. It has been submitted to. the Chairman of the Board of Railway Commissioners, who thinks it is so important that he hopes it will be extended to the other provinces.

Up to the present it has been confined, I think, to the- three Prairie Provinces'. It is believed that the work will be of great assistance	to the	Board	of
Railway Commissioners in connection with the discharge of their duties. There have been reports made to me, sometimes written and sometimes oral, as to the work which the commission has carried on. Unfortunately, it did not occur to me that this item would come up at this moment, otherwise ' I would have prepared myself with some notes which are in my possession as to the really important work which the commission has carried on. I appreciate, of course, the fact that the duties entrusted to it are of so complex a character that it would be impossible in five or six months to make a careful or, comprehensive survey of all that must be taken into account by the commission in the discharge of its duties. I do, however, believe that a good deal of really important and interesting work has been done. They have associated with them in their work officers of various departments of the Government. Some of the officers have been assigned to special duties in connection with the work of the commission, and have been devoting their whole time, under ime direction of the commission, to the study of various subjects which the commission is called upon to investigate and report upon. The work of the commission has not been very widely advertised, but it is not on that account of less importance. I might also say that Mr. Sandford Evans, who has been studying very carefully the question of transportation and marketing in connection with his duties as a member of the commission to Teport upon the Georgian Bay canal, has been asked to give the benefit of his work and his study to this commission, and I understand that he is doing so.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Are they taking up the
question of immigration as well?


Robert Laird Borden: They have taken that up in connection with the Department of Immigration, and otherwise as well, and some recommendations of a tentative character have been made to me orally by the chairman of the commission. There has not been an opportunity to give them very careful consideration, but they will receive it as soon as possible.


Wilfrid Laurier: The names of the commissioners, speaking for myself, are

not all known to the House; but I have the pleasure of knowing Senator Lougheed and Mr. Smith, a member of the House, and they are certainly very good men in their way. I am quite sure that in their hands the interests of the country will be looked after, and that the interests of the Government will not be forgotten either. If there is a lion's share I have no doubt the Government will get it. But what my right hon. friend has said as to the labours of this commission is rather vague. I do not know exactly yet what is to be done, but I suppose we shall have to judge of their work by the report which they will present to the House, perhaps next session.


Robert Laird Borden: I believe they will have a very full report before next session. I may observe that one of the most important members of the commission, and one whose work, I have no doubt, will be found very useful, is not a member of the Conservative party. He was formerly a member of this House and sat on the other side, I refer to Dr. Rutherford.


Wilfrid Laurier: A very good man. If they were all like him they would do good work.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know very much about the politics of the others. I am not sure whether Mr. Hopkins is a Tory or a Liberal.


Mr GRAHAM:: What about Mr. Smith:


Robert Laird Borden: There is no doubt about Mr. Smith, and there is no doubt about the chairman, Senator Lougheed. I do not -suppose that, if they are otherwise qualified, they are any the worse, from our standpoint at least, because they happen to be affiliated with the party of which I am a member.


George Perry Graham: They may be all right
notwithstanding.
Pensions on account of the Fenian raid, 18661870, $2,000.


Robert Laird Borden: The increase in this item is. due to an increase in the pension granted to Mrs. Caroline McEachren. Formerly she received 50 cents per day. This has been increased to $1.25 on the recommendation of the Pensions Board.
Pensions payable to militiamen on account of the rebellion of 1885, and active service generally, $20,000.


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed that the decrease in this vote is due to

the following reasons: The ordinary vote is $20,000. Last year, $100,000 was voted for pensions with the intention that it might be utilized for pensions to members of the overseas force. Later on it was found insufficient and a larger sum was provided. Consequently, $80,000 of the $100,000 was not used. This year the (Estimate is $20,000, the usual sum granted in past years.


Charles Marcil: As this vote is for pensions, and as recruiting is an allied subject, I may be permitted to call the attention of my right bon. friend the leader of the Government to a paragraph in the Ottawa Evening Journal regarding the recruiting question that I brought up .in the House yesterday. Perhaps the editor of the Ottawa Evening Journal did not take time to read the explanation given by me in the House before referring to the figures given by Senator Mason as to the parentages of enlistments. I will read the paragraph:
The figures^ which Senator Mason gave in the Upper Chamber last week of percentage of enlistment of the various classes in Canada give the following for the 320,000 men who have volunteered in this country for the war:
Enlistments.	Per cent. Number.
English-speaking Canadianborn	
French-speaking Canadian-	28J	91,200born	a	14,400British-born elsewhere than	in Canada	61	195,200Foreign-born	6	19,200100	320,000I understand that these	figures	are notofficial, because they have been applied for	at various times without	result	in the
House. It would be unfair to judge as to the number of French Canadians who bad been recruited by taking the figures merely for the province of Quebec, because French Canadians have enlisted in all the provinces of the Dominion, notably at Edmonton, in New Brunswick, and in Ontario. French Canadians are to be found in almost all the battalions from those parts of Canada. Therefore the right hon. gentleman told me yesterday that the figures were not official. I took that for granted. But there is another paragraph and this is what I take exception to. The Journal in commenting upon the figures said:
Considering the above figures, would it not be well for members of Parliament like Mr. Roch Lanetot and Mr. Marcil to prefer to preach volunteering in Quebec, rather than endeavour to cast cold water upon volunteering elsewhere?
Clearly no industrial or agricultural interest in Quebec can have been hurt yet by a rush, to volunteer, or seems likely to be.
As far as I am concerned, I have encouraged enlistment from the start. I have never declined a single appeal that has [DOT]been made to me to attend a recruiting or any other meeting. Therefore I do not deserve to be made the subject of a criticism of that kind. I have never discouraged enlistment.


Robert Laird Borden: I inquired of the deputy minister whether the figures were official and he informed me that they were not.


George Perry Graham: I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman if action will be taken this session on the report of the Pensions-Committee. A special committee has been appointed by the House to deal with this-m after of pensions, and I presume its report will be before us in a day or two. Does the Government intend to take action, on its report?


Robert Laird Borden: The report has not been received. I discussed what might be done in regard to it, as I understand it has, been drafted, with the chairman of the committee. It is probable it will contain a recommendation that some action shall be taken this session-perhaps not all the action which may be required, but action in connection with the formation' of a Pensions Board. We propose to take-whatever action may be possible at this session without unduly protracting it.


George Perry Graham: It will need legislation?


Robert Laird Borden: I think it will need legislation, but probably of a character that will not delay the House very much.
Pensions-European war, $3,000,000.


George Perry Graham: My question would come up more properly under this item.


Robert Laird Borden: This is the
amount that has been estimated by the department. If the report of the committee should call for a considerable increase-in the pensions-, I am not absolutely sure that this amount would be sufficient, but it will probably he sufficient until another session of Parliament is called.


George Perry Graham: When is the report of
the committee likely to be presented?


Mr. HAZEN:: I hope to be able to lay
it on the Table tojmorrow.
Civil Government-Office of Auditor General -to provide for five clerkships in third division, subdivision B, $2,500.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We got a circular letter some time ago saying that these men were starving on $500 a year. Would it not be better to put on less men and pay them more money?


Robert Rogers: They like to divide up
the work.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They don't do anything except stand around and look at each other.


Robert Rogers: You will have to take
that up with the Auditor General.
High Commissioner's office, London-to provide for the transfer of Edwin McLeod, Immigration agent, Carlisle, Eng., to the second division, subdivision A, in the High Commissioner's office, London, from the September 17, 1915, at $1,800 per annum, $970.


George Perry Graham: Any suggestion as to the new High Commissioner?


Robert Laird Borden: Not at present. This is merely for the transfer of a clerk, to be untilized in one department instead of another.
Customs-salaries and contingent expenses of the several ports in the Dominion, including pay for overtime of officers, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $3,590,000.


George Perry Graham: How many men are included in this army, and what is the significance of the words " notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act"?


John Dowsley Reid: There are 29,033 officers at
the ports throughout the Dominion.


George Perry Graham: What increase has there been in the number of employees?


John Dowsley Reid: There has been no increase; I have been decreasing them. There is a large decrease this year as compared with last. When men have gone to the front or vacancies have occurred for other reasons we have not filled the positions unless it was absolutely necessary; 300 or 400 vacancies that have occurred since the war began have not been filled. The revenue has decreased since August, 1914, but now, at some of the ports like Montreal, business is increasing; in fact, business at that port is greater than it ever has been.
Mr. MARCH.: Are the appointments in Montreal made under the Civil Service Act?

Mr. RElID: A man has to pass a qualifying examination before he can be appointed. Under the Civil Service Act preventive officers are exempt from passing an examination.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is the significance of the words, "notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act? "


John Dowsley Reid: The men at the different
ports work overtime, and under the law we should not be allowed to pay them anything extra, unless we inserted these words. Under the Civil Service Act we can pay them their salaries only, nothing for overtime.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is the proper time of these employees?


John Dowsley Reid: At Toronto, for instance, from nine in the morning until four o'clock in the afternoon. Then they could put in two or three hours' extra work a day as landing waiters, at thirty cents an hour. Nearly every port is working overtime. In the Auditor General's Report you will see several items like this:	salaries, $900; overtime, $250.


Mr. MARCH:: Are the appointments at
Montreal made on the recommendation of the Collector of Customs at Montreal?


John Dowsley Reid: Every one who is appointed has to be approved by the collector and pass an examination qualifying for the position.


George Perry Graham: 
John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member, I take it, has read the evidence given before the Public Accounts Committee.


George Perry Graham: They are not responsible to us.


John Dowsley Reid: The Public Accounts Committee is not responsible to the House?


George Perry Graham: The minister is responsible to us.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, I am responsible. There is nothing secret about this matter. The explanation was given in the Public Accounts Committee. Let me say at the outset that, as I stated in the Public Accounts [DOT]Committee, we had to get many things for the use of the first contingent. The Minister of Militia secured many articles from the other side of the line. He 'had asked me to arrange to allow these goods to come in at the different ports throughout the Dominion. There was a question of them being allowed to leave the other side, and be exported through Canada to the front. I gave instructions'-


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: Would that apply to clothing?


John Dowsley Reid: It applied to anything that
was required for the troops going to the front to fight for the British Empire, no matter whether it was clothing, munitions, guns or anything else. That was the instruction that I gave-that everything that was required to be transported through Canada for our troops that were to fight for the British Empire was to come in. And of course they would come through with the knowledge of the Militia Department, and by their instructions. I gave instructions to the Commissioner of Customs to allow this wherever the Militia Department wanted it done-at any port in Canada. The Commissioner of Customs did send one of his officials to Morrisburg to give instructions to the Collector of Customs. He wrote a letter and handed it to his official who went to Morrisburg, to read to Mr. Drew. But we were not at that time keeping records of letters and so on in order that they might come out at some future time. No one knew whether there might be some question raised as to these articles being allowed to pass through Canada.


Mr. TURRIFF:: Was it not explained to the collector that there was only machine guns?


John Dowsley Reid: If the hon. gentleman will
have patience until after I get through I shall be glad to answer questions.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Then let the minister not raise the question about the right of Canada to allow these imports.


John Dowsley Reid: It was raised in the press
everywhere at that time, whether munitions and other articles, including machine guns, might be allowed to be brought from the United States.


George Perry Graham: Let us get that cleared
up. That point was as to the right of the United States to let the goods go out, but there was no question as to the right of Canada to let them come in. Those goods were for us and for the Allies.


John Dowsley Reid: There might be a question
of allowing them to go out. We did not keep record of them-did not intend to keep a record of these goods passing through in bond


John Gillanders Turriff: Why?


John Dowsley Reid: Why? I do not think it is fair for the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) to try to drag out of me a statement of the articles which did come over which were brought here for the soldiers going to the front. The Government had reasons at that time to try to get everything that we could, in the way of machine guns, ammunition,-anything that we could not get in this country-to help the militia that we were sending overseas at that time.


John Gillanders Turriff: And the minister just
opened the custom house door wide to let in anything and everything, and allowed contractors like J. W. Allison to make all kinds of money that should have gone into the treasury of Canada.


John Dowsley Reid: It is all right for the member for Assiniboia to make that statement; but, whoever gave the hon. gentleman that information, I want to say that that information is absolutely false and untrue, every word of it. And let me say this also -that when the hon. member is outside, I will tell him to his face, if he should make that statement, that it is absolutely false and untrue. Such stuff was not brought into Canada in that way.


John Gillanders Turriff: Does the hon. minister
know what was brought in?


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member knows well what was brought in.


John Gillanders Turriff: Does the hon. minister
know?


John Dowsley Reid: I know what was brought in; nothing was brought in except what was shipped to the Minister of Militia's Department at Ottawa, or to Valcartier camp, all of which went out of this country in the usual way. Not one single dollar's worth of goods was brought into this country except whait was brought in in the legal way and shipped to the Militia Department.


John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend the minister has no more idea of what was brought in than any one else has. The door was wide open. The customs officer at Morris-burg said before the Public Accounts Committee that he knew absolutely nothing about what came in; that he did not know how many dozens or how many hundreds of cases came in; that they came in there and were shipped away by the scow load, thirty or forty at a time. He did not know what it was, whether machine guns, ammunition, clothing or anything else. If the customs officer at the port of entry did not know what was coming in, how does my hon. friend the minister know? The customs officer said that no records were kept of what came in. In the face of those facts, sworn to by the customs officer, how can the minister say that he knows everything that came in?


John Dowsley Reid: The customs officer said he
did not know what the contents of the cases were, because he did not open and examine them. That is absolutely correct, but the goods were shipped here to Ottawa and to Valcartier and the Militia Department have a record of everything that came in at Morrisburg, and the Valcartier Camp has. the same. The Government, therefore, is in full possession of the facts in connection with everything brought in at Morris-burg. The collector of custom at Morrisburg is an old man, seventy or seventy-two years of age-a fine old man; I am not saying one word against him. Instructions' were given to him t)o allow machine guns or any similar article to go through so long as they were shipped to the Minister of Militia or his department or to Valcartier camp. The goods that did come over came over between the time of the breaking out of war and October the 14th or 24th, just when we were getting the first contingent ready, equipping the men with machine guns and sending

them over in anticipation of their going right to the front. Was it not right and fair that we should give them the very best possible equipment? Yet because I, as Minister of Customs, assisted in getting these goods in and in having them shipped through Canada, the member for Assini-boia tries to make a mountain out of a molehill. I want to tell him and the people of Canada that any one who says that any goods were brought in at Morrisburg other than in a legal way and without the full knowledge and consent of the Department of Customs or without their knowing the contents, makes a statement that is not in accordance with the facts. I hope that the hon. member for Assiniboia will not try to mislead the people by making another statement of that kind.


John Gillanders Turriff: The minister says that
the instructions given to the customs officer at Morrisburg were that he should allow the goods to come in free without taking any record or notice of them provided they were addressed to the Minister of Militia or to the camp at Valcartier. The evidence given before the Public Accounts Committee did not state that. The evidence was that the instructions given Mr. Drew by letter written by the Commissioner of Customs and handed to him by an official and taken back again were that all goods addressed to a certain bunch around Morrisburg should be allowed to come in free. Nothing at all was said about shipping them to the Minister of Militia or to the camp at Valcartier. It was said that the object of these instructions was to let the Sifton machine gun battery come in. It was shown afterwards that that battery came in not by Morrisburg but at Cornwall. So I say that the door was opened wide for anything to come in. How does the Minister of Customs know what came in? How would he know?


John Dowsley Reid: 
John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend says that if the customs officer there had done his duty he would have kept a record. Did my hon. friend instruct him to keep a record? His instructions, as he swore to them, were that he was to allow all these goods, shipped to certain people, to come in without taking any notice of them and without making any entries. The minister now says that he should have kept a record. Will my hon. friend bring down a copy of the instructions that were given to the customs officer? If he does not do so, the man who received the letter of instructions, read it and was asked to hand it back again, should be able to remember what those instructions were. I hope that my hon. friend will bring down a copy of the instructions that were sent to the customs officer at Morrisburg. The fact remains that the door was opened wide; anything and everything could have been brought in, and I believe no one knows just what was brought in.


George Perry Graham: The customs officer was asked that very question, whether or not he suspected that any goods other than militia goods were passing through the' customs at Morrisburg free, and he said he had no suspicion whatever.


John Gillanders Turriff: He said he knew nothing about them; he paid no attention.


George Perry Graham: He said he had no
suspicion. I put that question to him myself.


John Gillanders Turriff: He did not examine
them; did not know how many.

At six o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Railways and Canals-chargeable to Income -Grand Trunk Pacific Company-loan not exceeding $8,000,000, repayable on demand with interest payable half-yearly at the rate of six per centum (6 per cent) per annum; to be used for expenditure made or to meet indebtedness incurred in paying interest upon securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, to meet deficit in operation and for the purchase of rolling stock; said loan to be secured by mortgage upon the undertaking of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company containing such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve. The disposition of the loan to be subject to the direction of the Governor in Council, $8,000,000.


William Thomas White: In connection with the consideration of this item, and the succeeding item, providing for a loan of $15,000,000 to the Canadian Northern Railway Company, I desire briefly to give the House certain information which was asked for by hon. members opposite when this matter was last under discussion. The hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) asked me whether the certificate of the chief engineer of the Government had been given as to the completion of the Grand Trunk Pacific from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. I find upon looking up the National Transcontinental Railway Act, and the agreement for the construction of this division of the National Transcontinental Railway, that no certificate is provided for as conclusive evidence that the road has been completed-whether or not the road has been completed is a question of fact:	[DOT]
The standard of the road Is not to be Inferior to the main line of the Grand Trunk railway of Canada between Montreal and Toronto, so far as may be practicable in the case of a newly constructed line of railway, and the road is to be constructed according to plans and specifications to be approved by the Government.
In this connection I may refer to the report of Sir Collingwood Schreiber, the chief engineer of the western division of the National Transcontinental Railway, of April 1, 1915, that is to say, a little over a year ago, in which he made this statement:
The western division-Winnipeg to Prince Rupert-has been in successful operation throughout since September 6, 1914. A very comfortable express train service has traversed the road twice a week each way, provided with the most modern design of sleeping and dining cars, in addition to which a passenger and freight service has been given daily on the road between Winnipeg and Prince George sufficient to handle the traffic offering.

Then he goes on to set out the balance of the work remaining to be done. In a word, I may say that the standard of the Grand Trunk Pacific while undoubtedly high is. not sufficiently high to comply with the requirements, that is to say, the standard of the Grand Trunk railway between Montreal and Toronto. For example, there are many trestle bridges which should be replaced by steel bridges. There are a number of structures which should undoubtedly be erected, but which are not indispensably necessary for the operation of the line. Therefore, answering generally the question of my hon. friend, I might say that, while the line is open for traffic, it is not up to the standard, nor is it likely to be for many years to come. According to the report of Sir Collingwood Schreiber, to which I have alluded, and to the facts as they exist to-day, I should say that some $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 at least would be required to bring the road measurably up to the standard to which I have referred. But on account of the financial conditions, to which I alluded in my speech, with respect to the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern Railway, it has not been possible, and I think it will not be possible for some time to come, to bring the road up to the standard required by the Act.
In connection with the Canadian Northern Railway Company's loan, I have since yesterday obtained from the Canadian Northern Railway Company a statement showing the estimated gross earnings, operating expenses, and net earnings for the years ending the 30th June, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1920. As to the year 1915 and the year 1916, they bear out the statement which I made to the House yesterday, namely, that the net earnings of the Canadian Northern Railway Company for the fiscal year 1915, which ended on June 30 last, amounted to $6,623,000, whereas the estimated net earnings for the year 1916 are placed at $9,770,000. For the year 1917, Mr. Hanna estimates that the net earnings will reach $11,500,000; for 1918, $13,700,000; for 1919, $15,120,000, and for 1920, $17,700,000. Of course, these are estimates; I do not give them as my estimates, but as the estimates of the general manager of the road, made, I have no doubt, in good faith, according to the best information which he has available. I shall therefore lay them upon the table, because it would not appear to me to be necessary to delay considera-

tion of the items by printing these estimates.
Then, my hon. friend from St. John referred to the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific railway, questioning, as I understood him, whether it was a benefit or a detriment to the Canadian Northern Railway system.


George Perry Graham: The bonds of that railway were guaranteed by the Canadian Northern.


William Thomas White: They were guaranteed by the Canadian Northern, but I desire to say to the committee that that was one of the most profitable, if not the most profitable line of the Canadian Northern Railway system. Its earnings for the year ending June 30, 1915, were 5311,000, and for the nine -months ending March, 1916, they amounted to 5390,000. A note attached to the statement by Mr. Hanna is to this effect:
This company has a very heavy local traffic tributary to its own line quite apart from its great value to the Canadian Northern System as a connecting link for through business from and to the United States of America and Western Canada.
This line has also proved of great advantage to the Canadian Northern in that when Port Arthur elevators were congested with grain an outlet was found at Duluth. In no case has the Canadian Northern railway ever shipped grain to Duluth when such shipments could be handled at Port Arthur.
The increase in gross and net earnings for this year, compared with the previous year, is to a large extent made up from the movement of grain to Duluth during the congested periods at Port Arthur and this movement to Duluth was requested by the Board of Commissioners.
I lay this also on, the Table.
My hon. friend from South Renfrew asked me with regard to the amounts due to contractors. I made inquiry of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, and I have received a letter from the assistant to the vice-president as follows:
With respect to the amount due constractors for work done, 'materials delivered and drawback on construction, the total of this is provided for either by cash on hand in trust accounts or securities available. We expect to largely liquidate these accounts within the next sixty or ninety days.
I may explain further to the committee that there remains in the trust account, that is to say the account in which were deposited the proceeds of the 535,000,000 of securities which -were guaranteed by the Dominion upon the Canadian Northern Ontario division between Montreal and Port Arthur, a credit balance of 51,300,000, and there is also a credit balance to the amount of 54,300,000 in the account, in
which was deposited the proceeds of the 545,000,000 of securities guaranteed by the Dominion two years ago. iSo it would appear that so far as the amounts due to contractors appearing in the statement of temporary loans and current obligations is concerned, with the measure of aid which we propose to afford, there will be funds available for their payment. I think that is substantially all that I was requested to furnish in connection with the further consideration of these two items.
Mr. 'GRAHAM: I notice that a considerable quantity of grain went south. I am surprised at my hon. friend boasting about that in connection with the Duluth road.


William Thomas White: I was not boasting,


George Perry Graham: I would have thought that he would consider it not a good thing for Canada that the grain should go south instead of coming east. As my hon. friend will understand, it is not an easy thing to go through these accounts and sift them. I was busy in the House last night and this afternoon, -and I have not had the opportunity to digest them. I suppose it would not be out of place for me to say, regarding both of these roads, that I do not take the pessimistic view that some people take as to the outcome of the situation, so far as the railways of Canada aTe concerned. There is no doubt that the war has dislocated things, and the traffic of the railways fell off to such an extent at one time that the strongest transportation company in the world, to my mind, the Canadian Pacific railway, saw its stock tumble to a degree that was never anticipated. That did not mean that the istock of the Canadian Pacific railway had not an intrinsic value greater than was represented by the figures shown on the stock exchange; but it did mean that for the time being trade was so dislocated- that the earnings, possibly temporary, were such that investment in the stock would not prove a paying one. But that condition has rapidly .adjusted itself. True it is that the great crop in the West has helped materially, and the transportation of munitions and other things connected with the war has done a good deal to aid the companies in increasing their revenue during the past year or so. But the substantial foundation on which our transportation companies must build will be the immigration into Canada, with which must come an increase of agricultural production, the tillage of a much larger acreage, and with all that an

increased output by our industrial concerns. I am not discouraged a bit about the situation. If conditions had remained as they appeared a few years ago, if immigration had continued to pour in, to open up out western lands and increase the cultivated acreage, with all the coincident development to which I have referred, the railway companies would he pretty busy at the present time. I have no fear for the future concerning them at all. At the present time we are facing a peculiar financial situation. The companies appear to be in a worse position than some other forms of industry, because we know all about them, and because they are of more gigantic proportions than many other businesses. But, as a matter of fact, a great many of the industries of Canada were in a very precarious condition when the war broke out. Instead of it being an injury to them, the war has been a godsend to them financially; but it has not been so until recently to the transportation companies. Take the Grand Trunk Pacific. The arrangement with that company was peculiar and somewhat complex, the late Government constructing half of the main line approximately, from Moncton to Winnipeg, a distance of 1,800 miles, while the company undertook, under certain guarantees, to construct the line from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert, approximately the same distance, I think the line from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert is not quite as long as the line from Moncton to Winnipeg. In addition, the Grand Trunk Pacific had to construct the system of branch lines to which I referred the other day. They have done that to a considerable extent, but not to the extent which will be necessary in order to feed the main line and in order that goods may come in, to be .shipped over these branch lines to the communities developed and yet to be developed.
The idea of building that road up to a very high standard elicited differences of opinion. I trust I shall not be 'breaking any rule of the committee if I deal with that for just a moment. There are two principles of railway construction. One is to build the cheapest possible road, practically placing the rails on the ties with little or no ballast, and with grades and curves of various dimensions, just so the road can begin to operate, and then, as it makes a profit, as the revenue begins to come in, it is used to improve the condition of the road and put in what we call betterments. In its former construction, the

Canadian Northern adopted the latter principles, and its branch lines all over the West and im the East, I think, were built on the basis of comparatively easy construction. When the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Transcontinental came to be constructed, they decided to adopt the other principle, that is, to build a road of a very high standard at once, so that when it was completed it would be able to afford the people of the country cheaper transportation than possibly could be afforded them by a road built on the lines of cheap construction. I need not argue that, it is evident. We cannot tell at the present time, it can only be told as the days go by, how much benefit that superior construction is to the people using that road. It is conceded now by every person that the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Transcontinental form the most perfect transcontinental railway in America. I think that nowhere in the world is there a stretch of road of such length and of such superior construction as the Transcontinental line.
It is necessary, in order to utilize such a line, and to get the benefit of the dear construction, that it shall have a lot of business to do. It can haul a bigger tonnage with the same engine. It can haul more than double the tonnage that can be hauled for an equal distance over any other road on this continent at the present time with all the improvements. It will necessitate the filling up of the West as rapidly as possible, with all the coincident development. It will require that the industries and agriculture of the East shall be developed to the fullest extent. It will brjng a return benefit to them in the way of cheaper freights. The Government have proven, during the past few months, that they can afford to haul grain at a cheaper rate than it has ever been hauled for before. The rate of six cents per bushel from Armstrong, which is a point that corresponds with Port Arthur, to Quebec is a cheaper rate than was ever given before by rail, and the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Reid) says that on that haul to Quebec a profit was made. This amply proves that the construction of a road of this character, if it has the work to do, is, for the present at least, of more benefit to the people than a line of cheaper construction.
It must he remembered too, Mr. Chairman, that ocean traffic has been greatly disturbed, and on ocean traffic, both Pacific and Atlantic, this through line depended

to a certain extent for its tonnage. But on the Pacific, as well as on the Atlantic, that traffic has been decreased to such a degree that the Grand Trunk Pacific and Transcontinental have received no benefit at all. Immigration that was flowing in by hundreds of thousands has come to a standstill. Increased acreage that, as everybody expected, would be yielding forth in abundance is not doing so, because the men are not coming in.
Then, many of our men from the West who were active in the tilling of the soil have gone to the war. In these respects conditions have altered to nuch* a marked degree that you cannot judge at all what would have been the result if these conditions had not so changed. In the years to come- and not so many years either-I look for a vast increase in the number of people who will come to our western country; I look to a development of British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, after a space of time following the war, that will astonish us all, not excluding the people who live in those provinces. Some of our friends are at the war; some have been killed and others have been wounded; others are in the thick of the fight and we do not know when we shall hear from them; others of our families, are preparing to go. On account of all these things, this is a time- and I say it advisedly-when we on whose shoulders the responsibilities of government is placed have to stiffen our backs to the burden and not grow pessimistic. Canada is all right; Canada is going to be able to carry all these burdens as the years go by; andwe must not on account of present surroundings and any temporary discouragements we may have let the public think we have lost confidence in the ability of our country to do what we started out to do, and that was to develop one of the greatest countries in the world. We must not lose sight of the fact that we' are a young and virile people; that under normal conditions we bring to our land the best; that our development, both as a people and of our natural resources, must go on; that we have inherent qualities in ourselves and in our natural resources that will make Canada what we expect to make her, and what to-day we believe she is capable of being made, if we will only stick to the helm and be true to our convictions.
This situation with regard to the railways comes to us at a time when we seem to be carrying the last pound that we can bear; and whether we agree to aid the railways in this or in some other way, my own conviction is that we all require some of the courage and stamina our fathers had when they first came to this country to hew out homes for themselves. Those qualities must be asserted in the sons yho have followed; we must rentain true to what -we believe to be our duty, and, that counse being followed, sooner than we expect it perhaps, we shall find that Canada needs all these railways, and will be able to use them for her own advantage and for the benefit of the people at large. In the years to come, for the Grand Trunk Pacific, with its magnificent construction, I look for a great traffic beginning in the east on the Atlantic and going right across to the Pacific, and vice versa. The Canadian Pacific Railway has done a large trade in that way and has made a name for itself the world over. No matter what we may have done by the Canadian Pacific Railway in years gone by, no matter how we may have criticised certain aspects of it, the fact remains that the Canadian Pacific railway is one of the greatest advertisements that Canada hae to-day. Wherever it goes its business is done in a manner that brings no discredit either to the business concerns of Canada or to the financial transactions in which that company is engaged. We have often been criticised for passing certain legislation in connection with the Canadian Pacific railway; but this much has always been in the minds of members of Parliament, namely, that the Canadian Pacific railway was a road that was creditable to the Dominion of Canada; and, whatever latitude was given to the Canadian Pacific Railway in the way of financing, whether we agreed with it or not, the company did not bring discredit on any person connected with it.
I have said these few things about the Grand Trunk Pacific. I have my own view about the way the Government has managed this end of it. But I am not going into that; I think it foreign to this discussion. I have strong views about the management of the whole Grand Trunk Pacific system as concerns Canada itself. Without saying anything imprudent, I think there are men in Canada who understand the Tailway situation and our transportation necessities as they cannot possibly be understood by men who do not live in Canada. Conditions here are so different, our development is so much more rapid and our territory so vast, that the circle in which we move, from a transportation point of

view, is altogether different to anything that could exist in a smaller country, with a denser population, and perhaps a more 'ntense production per acre. Our railway system has to cover many thousands of miles; we have a scattered population; we have a country only the fringe of which has been developed; and we must accommodate our transportation facilities to those conditions. To my mind we cannot rightly invite men from other lands to bring their families and go out into our vacant lands unless we are prepared to do something for them, so that they can get the production from those lands to a market that will bring them a good return. After all, what counts is the amount of money that a man has left over every year after paying his expenses. If we do not afford these newcomers the transportation facilities that will enable them to get the best value for their product, we reduce the value of their daily labour, and offer them no encouragement. When we understand, as we do, that the progress of our entire country depends primarily-primarily, I say-upon the man who is behind the plough, and upon the product of our soil, we can more thoroughly appreciate the necessity of allowing that man to get all he can out of the soil and out of his daily product, in order that he may be happy and contented. A man so contented is the best immigration agent we could engage in any place. It is true that during the past few years the condition of the man who tills the soil, and of his family, has been greatly improved by such conveniences as the telephone, and the daily mail.
But these conveniences only come to a comparatively few on the prairies; they do not have all these advantages in the remote districts. But, for the interest of the country at large, it is the duty of this Parliament, acting through its Government to devote itself with the utmost vigour as soon as the war ceases, to bring to our country a class of immigrants that will develop the country ae rapidly as possible. Thac will be good for our transportation facilities, good for the Dominion of Canada, and good for the Empire at large. If that is done, I have no fear-no matter what the temporary difficulties may be-of the final result to the Dominion no fear of the country's destiny. I have full faith that the Dominion will make such progress in all lines that all our railway facilities will be needed within the next few years.
Now, let us consider the Canadian Nor-
them along the same lines. I have been criticised, and the Government of which I was a member has been criticised, about, this railway. Well, you know, so many people have good hindsight, but not everybody has perfect foresight. Nobody could foresee that this war was coming, and nobody could tell what the result would be. We were all caught in a financial maelstrom. I am not discouraged with (the Canadian Northern as one of our transportation companies'. I did take exception with Sir William Mackenzie to. some of the things he was doing-for instance, to the extension of his lines through the Rockies; for the time being. But it is a condition that confronts us. I said concerning the Grand Trunk Pacific, so I say concerning the Canadian Northern-hard straggling now, but in years to come, and not so many years either, we will need the Canadian Northern to carry our traffic to and fro in the Dominion of Canada. In my opinion, the Canadian Northern west of the Great Lakes occupies the best territory of any of the railway lines running through the West, and I have been over a good portion of them all. While the system has been constructed largely on the principle I first mentioned, that of cheap construction, to begin with, and improvements made as traffic increased, it has a collecting system of close upon five thousand miles in some of the best territory in our Prairie Provinces. I may not agree with some of the projects of the Canadian Northern; and I do think it is time we came to a finality about handing them out money-I express that view frankly-but as to the final result, I believe that the Canadian Northern, running as it does through the best territory in the West, whether its operation is to be by the Government or by a company, will be needed in the time to come and needed to the fullest extent.
What is to be the outcome? The Government told us-and I suppose I am in order in discussing this now because it is practically the same subject-that it is the intention to appoint a commission to investigate the railway situation. I am not so confident at the present time that very much good will come out of that. And, by the way, I am afraid the Prime Minister will soon have to give up giving names to his commissions, which are now becoming quite an army; it might he more convenient to have them numbered or labelled. I am rather inclined to think that the Govern-

ment could, by calling in .the heads of these different companies, come to a solution of this problem without a highly-paid commission, and so could devote to some othe'r purpose the $150,000 proposed to be expended on the commission. But the Government says the commission is to be appointed. Now, the outcome will depend largely, first, on the instruction given to that commission, and, second, on its personnel. If the instructions are to examine the whole situation, without any restriction whatever, with a view to making suggestions to the Government as to the advisability of a certain policy and refraining from other policies, possibly that may be all right. But the commission must be composed of men of vision. We see it stated in the press that one commissioner is to come from Europe, another from the United States, these two to select the third. I do not know whether that is correct or not. I am not sure that men so selected will have the outlook that we in Canada have upon our own country. As I have said before, the men from the old land, to my mind, cannot possibly have the vision with which we are seized concerning the future of the Dominion of Canada, with our millions of acres still untilled, our mines unexplored, our vast timber territory, our fisheries, and many other things of whidh he is not cognizant-in fact, his vision might be narrower than that necessary to take in the whole situation; he might be inclined to bring the matter down to the present dollars and cents without having the outlook which, I think, is requisite if we are to, maintain the progress of the Dominion. The representative from the United States would be more in line with our ideas of development, I imagine, because his country has gone through what we are now going through. But it will depend altogether on the man. I submit to the Government that it is not going to be an easy matter to make this selection and to get men who will completely fill the Bill. These two, I understand, are to select the third. I would not let them do that if I were in the Government.


Robert Laird Borden: That is a very new idea.
Mr. GRArfAM:	That is in the press.
The press is energetic these days; it is getting something new, notwithstanding the occasional dullness of Parliament. Anyway, I would not allow them to do that. I do not wish to be offensive, but railway men, like all other combinations of business
men, are a kind of masonic society among themselves; and while the man whom they would select would probably work in harmony with them, he might not suit the requirements which, to my mind, ought to ' be found in any man occupying that position. The reason I speak of this is some experience that I have had. At one time in my career I tried to choose a board of engineers to help me in connection with the Quebec bridge. I selected one; we selected another, and before we had selected the third the other two were disagreeing. For two years I lived in an attitude that was not peaceful, the trouble being not in connection with the construction or the plans of the bridge, but in keeping my board on terms of peace with one another. The Government will have difficulty in the selection of that board, and the stronger the men the more difficulty there will be in getting them to work harmoniously, unless the Government handle the selection themselves.
I want to go on record as being a man with the optimistic view, wishing to sound a note of warning in my own weak way against our allowing ourselves to be stampeded by the pessimism that is in the air. Canada is all right. She is going , on to the accomplishment of her purpose with a firm tread. True, she is hesitating at the present time, but	when	those whocome after us write the history of our country I know that there will be no reason to feel ashamed of what the people of Canada did during this time of stress and trial. In addition to the courage we are showing concerning the war, we need just as much courage in handling our own domestic affairs. I urge upon Parliament the necessity of keeping our heads uplifted, not allowing ourselves to be diverted from the purpose of developing this country, feeling assured that in the years to come every dollar we have expended will be found to have been not unwisely expended, and will bring a return to the people of Canada, thus helping to build up our country as we expect it will be built up.
So far as the discussion of this question is concerned, I suppose if there were to be a possible division it would be on concurrence-I am not sure. .However, I wish to ask just a few questions as to matters of 1 detail. There is a statement on page 13 of the information concerning the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, which I do not quite understand. It refers to sundry

assets and sundry liabilities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company on February 29, 1916. While it gives assets of the branch lines and various other items that would belong to the organization, no amount is given as an asset of the main line itself.


Robert Laird Borden: These statements are referred to on the previous page.


George Perry Graham: I see that each statement refers to some other statement. Take the item under assets: "London Office, $243,000." Then I find these items, " unpaid wages, $559,698; accounts payable, $3,264,063." Would the minister explain that item " London Office " ? Has he the details of these two items concerning unpaid wages and accounts payable?


William Thomas White: No, I have not. I did not consider that that had any direct bearing upon the matter of this proposed loan. If my hon. friend is interested, however, I shall try to get that from Montreal. The item of accounts payable would seem to be the accounts current in connection with the railway system.


George Perry Graham: It is a large amount, $3,260,000.	.


William Thomas White: 
George Perry Graham: As to the item " unpaid wages," perhaps the Government does not meet with this like the ordinary member, but we get .letters from different people about unpaid wages. When we propose to aid any company, immediately those to whom amounts are due, particularly for labour, write to various members and urge that the Government make some statement as to the probability of these unpaid wages being paid before the taxes of the men to whom the wages are due are handed over to the company.


William Thomas White: I should think that that would be the amount of wages uppaid at the time this statement was made,
	i	;.
February 29, 1916. I do not think it is to be assumed that the road is in arrears as to wages. It has not been drawn to my attention that there are any unpaid wages.


Robert Laird Borden: That is, overdue.


William Thomas White: If my hon. friend has received any notification to that effect, before paying any of this money I shall be glad to make inquiries of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company. I am quite sure that the loan would enable them to pay up any arrears of that kind, but personally I do not believe that they are in arrears in this respect. I believe that it is a matter of bookkeeping as of February 29, 1916, to show the amount of wages unpaid-accrued, I suppose, but not yet matured due.


George Perry Graham: I suppose I need not ask any more questions about the details of that statement, because I shall not get any particulars. It would have been better, I think, if the Grand Trunk Pacific had given the accountant of the department some details of these matters; it is almost inevitable that questions of this kind will be asked. There is another item, " advances, National Transcontinental railway contracts, $873,000." I suppose that is an interchange of work, in a way, between the Grand Trunk Pacific and contractors on the National Transcontinental railway, but it is not clear here.


William Thomas White: That is right.


George Perry Graham: Then there is the item,
"section 'F' accounts, to be charged to National Transcontinental Railway Commissioners." The National Transconh^en-tal Railway Commissioners-except )i be the Minister of Railways-do not exist. That is on page 13. That is not a large item, but it is just a little confusing. This would make it appear that certain accounts ought to be charged to National Transcontinental Railway construction to the extent of $10,000. That is charged to the Government, or to the Minister of Railways as the commissioner who was to finish the construction of the National Transcontinental railway. But the National Transcontinental railway is finished, the Government says, and consequently there is no commission at all.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, there is; there is a
commissioner still.


George Perry Graham: The minister would be
the commissioner.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes; but the commission has not been dissolved.


George Perry Graham: The commission as heretofore existing, except it be the Minister of Railways, is dissolved.


John Dowsley Reid: The Act was changed reducing the number of commissioners from three to one, and the minister is now the commissioner.


George Perry Graham: That means that the
Government owe the Grand Trunk Pacific


William Thomas White: They claim it.


George Perry Graham: If we are to take this
statement as one on which we should base the loan to the Grand Trunk Pacific, then the Government owes the Grand Trunk Pacific $10,000, which ought to be in the Finance Minister's annual statement as one of the liabilities.


John Dowsley Reid: Is that not a case where the Grand Trunk Pacific were contractors along the railway? My hon. friend will remember that the Grand Trunk Pacific were contractors on part of the Transcontinental, and those accounts have not yet been finally adjusted or disposed of. The Grand Trunk Pacific had quite a large claim against the Transcontinental Commission for the construction they had done, and, on the other hand, the Government had some charges against them.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Referring to the Grand
Trunk Pacific loan, is there anything in this report to show what amount is for the deficit and what amount for the purchase of rolling stock?


William Thomas White: That will be
found on page 10, in a statement certified by the vice-president and treasurer of the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why do the Grand Trunk company proper not guarantee this loan? What is the reason given for that? They guaranteed the other loans, so far as the Government is concerned.


William Thomas White: They did not guarantee the last one.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Do they give any reason why they do not guarantee this one? The Grand Trunk proper had a more successful year last year than they have had for some years past. Why do they not guarantee this loan?


William Thomas White: There are considerations affecting the credit of the Grand Trunk Company which are, of course, of great concern to its directorate.
9 p.m. My hon. friend knows that the guarantee of a company constitutes a contingent liability, and has a direct bearing upon its credit. I pointed out yesterday that the Grand Trunk had already given guarantees and made loans in respect of the Grand Trunk Pacific to an amount exceeding $120,000,000. The Grand Trunk has to do considerable financing in order to provide betterments, improvements and terminal facilities in connection with Its own existing system; and the Grand Trunk feels, in a word, that it is not able, without seriously impairing its credit, to give additional guarantees upon the Grand Trunk Pacific. My hon. friend is quite logical in asking why the Grand Trunk should not carry the Grand Trunk Pacific. The reason they state is that they are not able to carry the Grand Trunk Pacific any further. Mr. Smithers made that statement in his letter to the Prime Minister, which has been laid on the Table of the House and appears in this statements It is perfectly clear that the Grand Trunk cannot, under present market conditions, finance the Grand Trunk Pacific by raising additional money upon its guarantee; and it ds their view that to do so would seriously impair the credit of the Grand Trunk Railway Company and prevent it from financing the betterments, improvements and facilities it requires in con nection with its own system.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I wish to state, with
the hon. member for Renfrew (Mr. Graham), that I also am an optimist. I have faith in my country, and I am far from being inimical to any of the railway systems. I think they have done a great deal towards the opening up and the development of this country. I cannot forget, when I was a boy attending Ottawa University, spending my evenings in the House of Commons listening to Sir Charles Tupper, Sir John Macdonald, Sir Richard Cartwright, and the other giants of those days. It was at the time of the inception of the Canadian Pacific railway. I remember Sir Charles Tupper predicting that some day the crop in the Northwest would yield 100,000,000 bushels. There was a roar in the House and in the party press over the prediction of Sir Charles. They derided him as too great an optimist; but he lived long enough to see his prediction fulfilled. My hon.

friend will remember that the Canadian Pacific was in pretty low water on a certain day. I remember that when the Hon. Frank Smith was a member of the Macdonald Government, and when the late Lord Strathcona, then plain Donald Smith, was connected with the company, together with Lord Mountstephen, they approached the Government on a very notable occasion when they were nearly bankrupt. The Government had refused to make a small advance, that is, small compared with the advances that have been made to railway companies since. They asked for $25,000,000. The history of the cabinet meeting of that day has been told by many writers, but perhaps the House will bear with me if I recall that the advance-I think it was something like $25,000,000, but perhaps my hon. friend from South York (Mr. W. F. Maclean) will be able to give the exact figure; he knows that part of Canadian history better than I do-had been refused by the Government at Ottawa. It is said that Donald Smith, afterwards Lord Strathcona, and Lord Mountstephen returned to the Russell Hotel in very low spirits. In fact, they were ruined, and their company was facing bankruptcy. But the Hon. Frank Smith-and all honour to his memory-and the late Hon. Mr. Pope, father of Senator Pope, asked Sir John Macdonald to hold another cabinet meeting to reconsider the application. It is said that at that cabinet meeting it was declared that if no advance was made the Canadian Pacific railway would go bankrupt, and that if the Canadian Pacific railway went bankrupt the credit of the country would be seriously damaged. We all know the sequel. The advance was made; the money was refunded before the day named in the contract; the line was built, the last spike was driven in near Vancouver by Sir Donald Smith himself long before the date fixed in the contract, and 'to-day the Canadian Pacific railway is certainly the beet administered corporation on the/American continent, and possibly in the world. I am bound to say that the heads of the Canadian Pacific railway have always been men of the highest merit, and the officials also have been of the very best. Having read the history of my country since Confederation and having lived since the inception of the Canadian Pacific railway and watched the course of events up to the present time, I am an optimist and believe that our National Transcontinental can certainly be saved. But it is not pessimistic to state 
that nationalization is ripe. I believe in nationalization, in state ownership, as regards railways. The note of pessimism comes from the Minister of Finance. It is not by listening to speeches on this Slide of the House that I become pessimistic; it is by listening to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance. He tells us in so many words, if I mistake not, that these proposed loans of $8,000,000 and $15,000,000 to the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern are a stop-gap; that they are only to enable them to pass through the crisis, and that we may well expect that in the near future they will come again hat in hand to obtain new loans from the Government of this country. So that I gather from the remarks of my hon. friend that he has in mind that, as surely as day follows night, the two systems are doomed, which I do not believe. But if they are doomed, why should we make the loans to-day? Why should we increase the burden? I will give some advice to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance and to my genial friend the Acting Minister of Railways, and I will charge nothing for it. The Government knows to-day that these two systems are in deep water. They have come again and again to this Parliament to obtain advances. The Government practically promised on each occasion that it would ibe the very last time and that their claims would not be entertained again. They come again this year, and, with this note of pessimism in the speech of the Minister of Finance, let me assure him that four out of five men on the street will tell him that the time has come for this country to get hold of these railway systems, to nationalize them. If my hon. friend will put his ear to the ground he will find out what he has to do. He will appoint this commission, he will delay the loan which he intends to make, and he will begin by putting that commission into operation. Let us prorogue this session of Parliament, let us have a session inside of four or five months, and then, if the report contains what seems to be already in the mind of the Minister of Finance, let us go in for nationalization. Otherwise, you are simply adding to the burdens of the people, you are not practically helping the two railway systems, as you will have in the end to nationalize them. I have it from the highest railway authority on the American continent-and if I were at liberty I would give the name, but I am not-that the Government must, within a very .short time,

take over the transcontinental railways and have three state-owned railways.


Frank Oliver: When the Canadian Northern guarantee (proposals were 'before Parliament in 1914, I took exception to the position in regard to the branch lines in the Prairie West. I would like to know what the position is, what is going to be done under this proposal now before the House in regard to these branch lines of the Canadian Northern in the Prairie West, branch lines not yet completed, although bonds guaranteed by provincial governments have been issued. In the Government's proposals of 1914 they simply ignored that condition. They counted the bonds which had been guaranteed by the provincial governments as an asset of the company upon which they took security, but they took no measures to secure the completion of the branch lines. What (has the Government in mind in the proposal now before the House in regard to these branch lines?


William Thomas White: The present proposal has no bearing on that matter at all. The question of whether the Canadian Northern will be able to complete these branch lines will depend upon its ability to finance the securities guaranteed by the provincial Governments. It is quite possible, although I am speaking without full information, that if the financial conditions permit, the Canadian Northern will be able to proceed with the lines in question; but this loan is for the purpose of meeting the current obligations of the 'Canadian Northern and to enable them to finance until the next session of Parliament. The company is confronted with an immediate serious situation by reason of the large amount of its unfunded debt and current obligations, and this loan is for the purpose of meeting that situation and enabling them to finance during the year. Whether the Canadian Northern will proceed with the branch lines in the West under any understanding or agreement with the provincial Governments will depend entirely on its ability to finance the requirements altogether apart from this particular loan.


Frank Oliver: I do not think that the position taken in 1914, or the position taken just now by the Minister of Finance, is fair and reasonable or is even sound public policy.	.


William Thomas White: Does not my hon. friend observe that in order to provide for what he has in mind the Government would
have to give an increased amount, assuming that we agree that this money is needed to keep the railway system as a growing concern? If the Government would provide an additional sum specifically for the purpose in question, that is one thing; but the Canadian Northern railway, as I stated, finds itself in such a position that it has to have this -aid in connection with its current obligations and unfunded debt.


John Gillanders Turriff: What the minister says does not apply exactly, because I know that in some of the provinces the railway company has sold these bonds guaranteed by the province and that the money has been deposited in the bank and can only be drawn out on the 'certificate of the provincial Government's railway engineer. There are some millions of dollars, raised by the railway company from the bonds guaranteed by the province, lying in the bank, and the railway company does not complete the lines for which these bonds were issued. That was the ease last year and it is the case to-day. If the Government is going to come forward like a good parent and practically finance this company, it ought to see that the -company spends the money lying at its credit in the bank to complete these railways, or complete them as far as the money will go. , There is no sense in the money lying there, and settlers on the prairies not being able to get the railway accommodation for which the provincial -bonds were sold.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend
will, I am sure, realize that it is a question, from the Canadian Northern standpoint, as to whether they can build the lines that were intended. I accept the statement of my hon, friend, although I have no accurate knowledge as to the facts, that guaranteed bonds have been sold and that the money lies in trust account to the credit of the Provincial Treasurer for the purpose of constructing these lines. Let us assume that the money is not sufficient for the purpose; the Canadian Northern have to have regard to the existing financial conditions and it will be for them to say whether the money is sufficient for them to complete the line. They might say:	"If we go ahead and
build the line we can only build it up to a certain point, and we will have to stop there owing to existing financial conditions. We are not able to raise the additional money to build this line, nor is it desirable that under existing conditions we. should incur the loss which

might result from the early operation of the line." The difficulty of this war time is that the railway companies, as well as other companies, are confronted with extraordinary financial conditions under which they are not able to do what they would gladly do if the conditions were different. If they were able to finance as they were some years ago, and if their prospects were such that they could carry on the operation of these extra lines, the situation would be entirely different. But under present conditions I can well understand any railway company, either the Grand Trunk Pacific or the Canadian Northern railway, unable as they are to market their bonds except at rates away below the price they could have got two or three years ago, proceeding with construction without the certainty that they would be able to finish the lines, or without the certainty that after the lines were finished the company would be able to bear the additional burdens until such times as the lines were remunerative.


Frank Oliver: Again, I say, I cannot
agree with the hon. minister that the two questions are entirely dissociate. I insist that they are absolutely interlocked; that the question of what the Canadian Northern railway is doing with the money of the provinces that it has in hand, and which this Government counts as an asset


William Thomas White: No, it does not.


Frank Oliver: Under the guarantee of
1914 that money is listed as a security held by this Government on the Canadian Northern railway. Having assumed that position, this Government have a responsibility in regard to those enterprises that they cannot ignore, and which they should not ignore when there is before them a general proposition of aid to the Canadian Northern railway. This proposition of aid to the Canadian Northern railway is not confined to interest payments. It includes not only interest payments, but payments of actual expenditure. If the proposition were confined entirely to interest payments, there might be some merit in the contention of the minister. But it is not confined to interest payments; it includes payments for work done, for accounts outstanding, and other liabilities. It goes beyond the question of meeting interest payments now accruing and takes into account these other considerations, and I maintain that the question of the completion of these branch lines is not only of equal but of vastly

greater importance to the well-being of the country and the success of the Canadian Northern enterprise, and the security of the money that is invested in that enterprise, than any of these other considerations. I hope I shall be excused if I speak very strongly on this point, but I do so because my constituency is very very deeply interested, as is also the adjoining constituency.
This railroad question has generally been discussed by those who see the question only from the centre outwards; I represent the people who are at the outside of the circle, and who are affected in an entirely different manner. Thousands of people have gone into the partially wooded country north of the Saskatchewan river, along surveyed routes of the Canadian Northern Railway, knowing that the bonds had been guaranteed by the provincial Government, knowing that the bonds had in many cases been sold and the money realized. They would not have gone in there and settled if they had not had the expectation that the road would be completed within a reasonable time. The company have in one case built and opened up some sixty miles of road, and graded some fifty miles more, but without the steel. In another case they have sold the bonds for a hundred miles of road, and have graded eighty-five miles, but have laid no rails at all; and people for a hundred miles beyond the extreme end of that grading have gone in and settled upon the expectation of the road being built. How the Government, holding 40 per cent of the stock of the Canadian Northern Railway-have assumed that much responsibility in regard to the company-can absolutely ignore that condition and say: We have no responsibility whatever in regard to it. We know nothing about it; it is a matter between the Canadian Northern Railway and the provincial Governments-is something I cannot understand. At the time they are saying that, they are taking the money of those very people to pay the Canadian Northern liabilities, and not liabilities merely in respect of interest accruing, but capital liabilities incurred in other localities. I have no hostility to the Canadian Northern Railway, and in this matter I do not wish to criticise the Government severely, I appreciate the difficulties that have to be faced, and am willing to assist the Government in facing those difficulties, but I certainly cannot agree without protest to a proposal that would carrry aid a certain distance and

chop it off just where it touches the people whom I represent, and who are more deeply-interested in the extension of aid than any other people in the Dominion of Canada.
The idea that the Provincial Governments of the Prairie West are primarily responsible, or ought to be primarily responsible, for the railway development of that country is not a fair proposition. The land, the timber, .and the minerals of the Prairie West belong to the Dominion, and are administered by this Government. The provinces do not own a foot of land, a stick of timber, a pound of coal, or a cubic foot of gas; they have no right of proprietorship in any of these things. The Dominion at large owns all these resources, and this Government .administers them, derives revenue from them, and is responsible to the country for their development. In response to the demands of the people who were actually settled on the land, and who looked to the Provincial Government for means of transportation by wagon roads, it is true that the Provincial Government, considering the situation of these people and realizing that wagon roads could not possibly meet their requirements, guaranteed railway bonds, for the purpose of having railroads constructed. The Provincial Governments have done everything they could; they have strained their credit to the limit for the purpose of aiding in the construction of those roads.-a purpose which has had for its result the bringing into immense value of the property of the Dominion of Canada. This Government has guaranteed the bonds of the Canadian Northern Railway, and, the railway company having sold the 'bonds and having spent a laTge part of the proceeds; but not the whole of it, this Government takes a blanket mortgage on the very roads that the Provincial Government has guaranteed; and this Govern ment, now calling on the people of the Dominion to contribute $15,000,000 for the aid of that railway company, absolutely ignores the condition I have placed before the House, and the position in which these people are situated. I cannot agree with the Minister of Finance that this is not < the concern of this Parliament or of this Government. I consider it an absolutely intimate concern of this Parliament and of this Government. Looked at only from the standpoint of the Canadian Northern Railway-if that was the only interest to be considered-the completion of these branch lines-I am not speaking, remember, of lines that have not been begun,
but of lines that have actually been commenced, and wihich stand "partially but not finally completed to-day, either for shortage of money or other reasons, I know not what-I maintain that the completion of these branch lines would be of greater material benefit to the railway company itself, in the way of building up the traffic that is necessary to its ultimate success', than any other assistance that could be given to it by this Government. I hope the Government will reconsider this view that has been expressed. When I saw this liberal amount of aid proposed for the Canadian Northern, I naturally concluded that it was intended to consider the position in Saskatchewan and Alberta, and that some adjustment would be included that would tend, at any rate, to the completion of these partially-completed enterprises.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the hon.
member speaking of the two companies, the Canadian Northern Western and the Canadian Northern Saskatchewan?


Frank Oliver: I am speaking' particularly of two lines in Alberta, in my own constituency and the adjoining constituency, which are under the Canadian Northern Western charter, I think; but I take it for granted that there is a similar situation in Saskatchewan, though I am not familiar with it; and I know there is a similar situation in other parts of Alberta, where the country is in occupation and is under production, and where that production is absolutely handicapped for lack of the completion of Canadian Northern lines which have been guaranteed by the provincial government,-the people have gone in and settled there in expectation of these lines being completed. I am not accusing the company of bad faith-but I am stating that there is the condition, and I say it rests upon the shoulders of this. Government to see to it that that difficulty is rectified under present circumstances.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: I will certainly not
deny that there are districts in the West which are in need of branch line construction. Furthermore, it certainly would be our duty, were it in our power, to see to it that all branch line construction now necessary in the country is completed. The hon. gentleman thinks the Government is remiss in its duty in bringing down this measure without seeing to the completion of certain lines in the province of Alberta, and complains that the matter of their com-

pletion is entirely one for which this Government is responsible. He refers to a couple of lines which, he says, are under the charter of the Canadian Northern \vestern, in respect to which he says the bonds have been guaranteed to the extent, of $15,000 a mile by the province of Alberta, but which lines have not been completed.
. \


Frank Oliver: 
Arthur Meighen: 
Frank Oliver: I have to protest against the conclusion of my hon. friend right there.


Arthur Meighen: That Parliament came to the conclusion-


Frank Oliver: That it came to that conclusion at my insistence.


Arthur Meighen: 
Frank Oliver: Not by my intention anyway.


Arthur Meighen: Perhaps the hon. member's intention, though he argued in favour of that, was that we should decide against it. However, we agreed with him on that occasion, and, as a consequence, the Canadian Northern Western is still under the authority of the provincial Government of Alberta.


Frank Oliver: I hope the hon. member will permit me to interrupt him just a

moment in order to get the record Tight. I think Hansard will prove that I insisted, in the remarks I made, that if the Government took the steps they did at that time they should assume full responsibility for the railway.


Arthur Meighen: But he insisted that the control of the Canadian Northern Western should rest with the province of Alberta. Perhaps he would have liked that we should assume responsibility for supplying the money; but he insisted, whether we supplied the money or not, that the Government of Alberta should have the authority.


Frank Oliver: I cannot agree with that statement of the case.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman is endeavouring to give the House the impression, if I caught his argument correctly, that the proceeds of securities guaranteed by the province of Alberta had not only not been utilized for the purpose for which they were guaranteed, namely, the completion of the construction of lines covered by that guarantee in the province, but were diverted to the payment of other debts.


Frank Oliver: No, I said they were listed as part of the securities over which this Government assumed control in consideration of the guarantee given.


Arthur Meighen: The Government mortgage of 1914 applied to all the properties of the Canadian Northern, or, moTe strictly, it did not apply on the properties, but on the stocks of the company, subject to the mortgages, and the mortgage was in favour of the Government of the province of Alberta as security for its guarantee. It would be impossible that there should be any diversion of the funds; the funds are expended on the roads, or they lie there awaiting expenditure. If they lie there, it will be for one reason, and one Teason only-that they were not sufficient to construct the road. The hon. gentleman has been instrumental in seeing to it that the province of Alberta kept within itself control of that road. The province of Alberta is not without power yet, if it insists upon the completion of these lines which the proceeds of the guaranteed securities are not sufficient to complete-it is not without power to increase that guarantee and so enable the proceeds to be made sufficient to secure completion. I understand that the policy of the road has been to build such lines as were laid out' at the time of the going through of the $45,000,000 mortgage of two years ago, but

not to prosecute further unless the proceeds of the securities already guaranteed were sufficient to enable them to complete; for the simple reason that it has been the practice before to realize on provincially-guaranteed securities to the fullest extent possible and then to use the proceeds of the consolidated debenture stock to complete construction.


Frank Oliver: It is not a question of the Canadian Northern going forward with lines not already begun in 1914; it is a question of the company completing lines then begun and partially completed.


Arthur Meighen: In one sense, I presume, a branch line is never completed. It may extend for ten miles, and later for another ten miles, and so on.


Frank Oliver: To the extent to which
bonds have been issued.


Arthur Meighen: To the extent to which there is money to complete. That is as far as they are able to go. The consolidated debenture stock mortgage provides that there may be a priority to it of securities to the extent of $10,000 per mile issued, or $15,000 per mile if those securities are guaranteed by a provincial or by the Dominion Government. The consolidated debenture stock securities become a second charge, subject, say, to provineially guaranteed securities to the extent of $15,000 per mile. Consequently they are able to issue that stock subject to these provincial securities. But the trouble has been that since the outbreak of war it has been impossible to sell that character of stock, so that there are no moneys that would enable them to ' go ahead with that construction. If the Dominion Government were to ask them to do so, the obvious answer would be: supply us with the funds, and we will. If the bon. member for Edmonton wants us to take the position that in addition to what is absolutely necessary to hold the situation we should provide the railway company with funds to prosecute new construction or to complete the prosecution of construction for which tthe provineially-guaran-teed securities are not sufficient, then he should put that in the form of a definite resolution so that we shall know what we are asked to do. For the present it is not the intention to provide funds loaned by the Dominion of Canada to prosecute construction further. The provincial Government has it in its power to do so. We have power under the legislation of 1914 to give priority to provincial securities to a
greater extent than they have already been issued, and I have no doubt that any application to give such priority to provincially-guaranteed securities would be sympathetically considered. The provincial Government has it in its power to enlarge that guarantee and to give priority to that enlarged guarantee if it so desires. So that it has the situation in its own power.


Frank Oliver: The minister has stated
my position exactly. Under the circumstances as they exist, the Government being a part owner in the Canadian Northern and assuming to carry the Canadian Northern forward, I think that that would be an entirely proper additional expenditure on the part of this Government. I desire it to be understood exactly in the terms that my hon. friend has stated; that is exactly the position as I view it. When the Provincial Government guarantees the bonds of a branch railroad to the amount of $20,000 a mile and the company sells those bonds, no doubt at a considerable discount, and spends a part of the .money-we do not know how much-the remainder of the money is to the credit of the company at the order of the provincial treasurer. My hon. friend says that if that money was sufficient to complete the road the company would complete it. It does not follow at all that the company would complete the road if that money was sufficient to complete it. It may be that the financial circumstances of the company are such that; the money being deposited in, we will say, the Bank of Commerce, the Bank of Commerce is willing to advance money to the company for other purposes while that money remains in the Bank of Commerce, a satisfactory collateral to the loan that is made for other purposes.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman knows that it could not possibly be applied as collateral to any other loan. The trust deed would prevent it.


Frank Oliver: I do not follow my hon. friend's argument. I know that papers could not be drawn to that effect, but I know also that the management of the bank recognizes-$3,000,000 being there to the credit of the provincial treasurer of Alberta, whicih money cannot be drawn by the provincial treasurer until certain railroad construction has been done-that if they have an understanding with the railroad company that railroad construction will not be done, the money is just as safe in



the hank for other purposes as if they had all the agreements that could be put under seal.


Arthur Meighen: That might be, but it could not be there as collateral to the new loan.


Frank Oliver: I am not a banker, and I may be using the word " collateral " improperly. I am sure, however, that it is perfectly good security to the bank to enable it to advance the company money for other purposes, and I verily believe that is what has been done, not so much because the bonds did not realize enough money to enable the company to build the road as because the necessities of the company caused that money to be used in the way that I say, for purposes other than those for which it was intended and for which the provincial guarantee was given. I have taken the responsibility of bringing this condition to the attention of the Government and I say that it is a condition that demands attention at this particular time. If the Government say: "We have no interest in this matter; we care nothing about how the Canadian Northern juggles with their money or with the money that they get from the provinces; if they are able to use provincial credit for the benefit of Dominion enterprise, well, that is good business; let the provincial Government find their own remedy;-if the Government say this, I do not think it is a fair proposition. I do not think it is right; I do not think it is good business. I certainly know that it is not good for the progress of the country, nor is it good for the Canadian Northern Railway Company itself.


Robert Laird Borden: One would think that if there was any such collusive agreement between the bank and the railway company within the knowledge of the provincial Government, they would simply remove the money so that it would stand to their credit in the same way in another bank.


Frank Oliver: That is quite an obvious conclusion, but there is this to be said: on a certain occasion not many years ago the provincial Government of Alberta undertook to do that very thing in Tegard to a railroad aid transaction that was not connected with the Canadian Northern in any way. The result was that the bank refused to give the money up. The case was carried to the Privy Council, and the Privy

Council decided that the Government could not draw the money from the bank. Having had that experience, they are not anxious to undertake it again.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend entirely misunderstands me. I did not suggest that they should divert it to any other purpose. The Privy Council did decide that they could not divert it to any other purpose under the particular circumstances, but the Privy Council did not decide, nor did any other court decide, that the money could not be placed to the credit of the provincial government for the same purpose in another bank which had no collusive arrangement with the railway company.


Frank Oliver: I am not able to answer
the Prime Minister; he,being of the legal profession, I will have to bow to his interpretation of the Privy Council's decision. But he will pardon me if I say that I do not appreciate the condition as he has stated it. I cannot see how the question as to how the ultimate purpose for which th'o money was to be used came in, when thr only question was:	shall the Royal Bank
be compelled to honour the cheque of the Provincial Treasurer of the Government of Alberta, or not? I cannot understand how the purpose for which the money was to be used came into question. At any rate, that is what occurred, and because it occurred the provincial government is not anxious to enter into litigation with any of the banks on that account. This money got-into the banks before the decision of the Privy Council in the Great Waterways case was rendered, and I imagine that probably it will not occur again.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I am neither an optimist nor a pessimist so far as railways or anything else are concerned. I only want to see the Government doing the best that is possible under the circumstances of this difficult railway situation, and for that reason I want to get whatever information I can.
I noticed a statement in the Bureau of Railway News Statistics, Chicago, that the Government-owned railways in Canada in the last year cost $102.13 for each $100 taken in; and the private-operated cost $73.94. That is not an encouragement to me for Government-owned railways, nor will it be until we have some system of operating them to better advantage than we have had in the past.
The Canadian Northern statement does

not show in what proportion this $15,000,000 is to be divided between payment of interest npon securities of the companies included in the Canadian Northern Railway system having priority over the guaranteed securities authorized by chapter 20 of the statutes of 1914, instalment of equipment securities, and upon construction. I think it is quite material for us to know how much of this is to be used for these items; we cannot otherwise discuss' it intelligently.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend will find on page 13 of the Canadian Northern statement a memorandum, prepared from records of the Finance Department which I had prepared, showing the disposition of the proceeds of the $45,000,000 of guaranteed securities. I think my hon. friend may assume conclusively that the proceeds on the $45,000,000 of guaranteed securities have been paid out in accordance with the legislation of 1914 and the trust mortgage executed in accordance with its provisions. As to the proposed disposition of the $15,000,000, I draw his attention to page 8, on which appears the most important statement in this document, because it shows the immediate financial situation of the Canadian Northern Railway Company. So far as the funded debt is concerned, of course the securities have been placed, but the urgency of the situation of the Canadian Northern Company's system, is shown by the statement on the lower part of page 8, that is the memorandum re liabilities, April 15, 1916. All the liabilities shown in this statement are either short date securities, one-year or two-year, or obligations current; and it is particularly to the latter that I now draw my hon. friend's attention. He will observe that apart from the London loans 10 p.m. and the Canadian loans, and the two-year and one-year notes, representing respectively $29,400,000, $16,200,000 and $14,000,000, there are the following items:
Bills payable-advances on construction of main line and branch
lines	 $ 7,300,000
Temporary loans cover-in? interest, construction, betterments and
equipment	$19,925,345
Less receivable from proceeds of securities, etc., applicable in reduction of the above.. 3,529,929	16,395,416
Then, on the top of the next page and embraced in the same statement, we have amounts owing to contractors, subcontrac-
., I J
tors, estimated, material accounts, etc., $5,912,407 and sundry accounts, capital account, coupon warrants, making an aggregate of $13,997,338. From this they deduct cash on hand, receivable, materials, supplies, etc., $10,780,389, leaving a balance of $3,216,940. Now, if my hon. friend will add together the $7,300,000 representing bills payable; the temporary loans less the amount receivable from proceeds of securities applicable in respect thereof, amounting to $16,395,416; the contractors estimates amounting to $5,912,407; and the balance of $3,216,940 in the last statement; he will find the immediate financial situation with which the Canadian Northern Railway system is confronted, aggregating $32,000,000. As T explained to the hon. member for South: Renfrew-and I filed a letter in connection, with this-the Canadian Northern Company have certified that, so far as the contractors' and subcontractors' estimates, monthly accounts, etc., were concerned, with the cash which remained on balance in the trust account and the financial resources which they had, apart from the $15,000,000, they would be able to meet that situation. Therefore what they are confronted with is a $7,300,000 situation and a $16,395,416 situation; in other words, $24,000,000. TO' put the Canadian Northern in a position in which its current obligations would be taken care of, would require, not $15,000,000, but $24,000,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Less the $10,000,000.


William Thomas White: No, the $10,000,000 does not enter. I am adding the $7,300,000 and the $16,395,416, making $24,000,000. That is the immediate financial situation with which, as I have stated, they are confronted. iMy hon. friend has asked me what are the details. So far as the $7,300,000 is concerned, that is perfectly clear, because that is represented by the balance payable by the company on account of the>
advances on construction of main line and branch lines. Then there are the temporary loans, aggregating $19,925,345-less receivable from the proceeds, $3,529,929; leaving $16,395,416-made up in this way: Construction

completion of main line and certain branches which were under construction, when war broke out, including interest on securities issued on same and ranking prior to the $45,000,000 guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada, $14,612,477.51; less receivable from the proceeds of securities, etc., applicable in reduction of the above, $3,529,929; leaving a balance on that account of $11,082,548.51.

The construction of terminals, grade separation, Port Kells branch, and other capital expenditure, represent $1,846,867.49; and principal of equipment notes, $3,466,000, making a total of $16,395,416, as exhibited in these statements. My hon. friend asked what securities kvere in priority to the Dominion $45,000,000 securities.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I asked what was the amount of interest due.


William Thomas White: In reality, all the securities of the Canadian Northern Railway system, with the exception of income convertible debenture stock, rank in priority to the securities of $45,000,000 which were issued under the Dominion guarantee by virtue of the legislation of 1914. I stated the other day that the entire fixed charges of the 'Canadian Northern system, which would include the interest upon the $45,000,000 were about $15,000,000 in round figures. I stated further that on July 1, by reason of the interest upon the $45,000,000 securities guaranteed, and upon the $35,000,000 securities, guaranteed undeT the legislation of 1911, which would be assumed by the Dominion Government for a period of three years, commencing this year, and by- reason of a similar agreement in British Columbia, under which the Government of that Province will pay interest for a period of three years upon the securities which it has guaranteed upon the Canadian Northern Pacific, the fixed charges, or net earnings of the Canadian Northern system would be reduced from $15,000,000 by the amount of $4,500,000. That is to say, for the coming year the fixed charge will be about $11,000,000, instead of $15,000,000, because the Dominion Government and the Government of British Columbia will be obliged to pay $4,500,000 in interest.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Do you defer these interest payments?


William Thomas White: The interest payments as theycome along will be taken care of by the company if they are able to take care of them; but I assume from the statement of estimated earnings, which I laid on the Table to-night, and which is certified by Mr. D. H. Hanna, the general manager of the system, that the railway company will be able to meet its fixed charges if there is taken into consideration the fact that the Dominion Government and the Government of British Columbia pay $4,500,000 a year for the next three years.
To come to the application of the $15,000,-
fSir Thomas White.]
000 which we are loaning to the Canadian Northern Company, I stated that it was the minimum amount. I pointed out the fact that there were $32,000,000 of immediate obligations, not funded at all, confronting the Canadian Northern Railway Company. There are two bearings to that. In the first place, the amount is exceedingly large, and they are unable to obtain more money because they have not the securities to pledge. Further, in the renewal of their notes, one year notes and two year notes, the question will at once arise when they come to renew these notes-and they must renew part of them this year-what about your unfunded debt, what about your immediate liabilities? The first question that is asked a railway company, or indeed any company, when it comes to put out an issue of securities, whether for long or short terms, is what is your financial position? The financial position of the Canadian Northern is that it has some $32,000,000 of liabilities. It is true that it has money in trust accounts and resources which will enable it to take care of the contractors' and subcontractors' estimates; but the remaining situation, some $24,000,000 or $25,000,000, is immediate, and consequently the $15,000,000 is, in my view, and in their view, and I think it will be in the view of any man looking fairly at this statement, the minimum amount with which they can hope to finance the company. It would take at least $25,000,000 instead of $15,000,000 to clear up these current obligations which they are not able to fund, and to replace which they are not able to effect new loans because they have no securities. We are not making them as large a loan as would completely restore their financial position. We are making them the loan of $15,000,000, and we say to them: " you have got to finance with that foT the coming year until we have this investigation and are able to look into the whole situation." They cannot get on with less than $15,000,000, and they have still this situation confronting them. I would like to say that the $15,000,000 which we propose to loan could be applied, under the terms of the estimate, in payment of any items to which I have referred, or partly so, namely, the temporary loans, covering interest, construction, betterments, and equipment, or to the liquidation of the balance payable in respect to advances or to the liquidation of the balance payable in respect of advances on construction on the main line and branch lines. We are not going to clear up the entire situation, but if we make them this

loan they will be able by renewing loans and replacing loans, having this situation in regard to current liabilities, to finance during the coming year. That is the position.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT:: Does the minister propose to pay contractors who are indebted out of this money?


William Thomas White: The contractors who are unpaid will be paid by the Canadian Northern Railway out of moneys in trust against the $35,000,000 mortgage and the $45,000,000 mortgage to which I have referred. There is a credit balance at present to the account of the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company $35,000,000 mortgage trust account of $1,301,719.70.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Why is that not used to pay these unfortunate contractors?


William Thomas White: Just one moment, please. Then, in connection with the Canadian Northern $45,000,000 mortgage of 1914, there is a credit balance as of May 1, of $4,344,761. On the statement of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, corroborated by records in my own department, there is money lying to the credit of this trust account available for payment on construction account in accordance with the terms of these mortgages. My hon. friend from Calgary asks me why the Canadian Northern Railway does not pay the contractors. Personally I am not aware of the contractors being unpaid.


Richard Bedford Bennett: On the Canadian Northern Ontario?


William Thomas White: I am not aware of it. This afternoon it was brought to my attention by a couple of sub-contractors, who said that they had not been paid by the principal contractors; but they were unable to tell me whether the Canadian Northern had paid the main contractors or not. But, as I had heard that there are accounts owing to contractors by the Canadian Northern Railway Company, I took the matter up in connection with this transaction with the Canadian Northern, and I am only repeating to my hon. friend from Calgary the assurance which has been given me, that out of the proceeds of these trust accounts and the available cash resources they would make payment of the indebtedness to the contractors. But it must be borne in mind that, although this money would be expended in that way, if there was a disputed account between a
contractor and the Canadian Northern Railway Company, they said that they would not necessarily pay the contractors the full amount that he claimed. It may well be that where they are in agreement they will say: "We owe you a certain amount, and we will pay you the amount that we admit we owe you;" but if there is a disputed account I do not think it is incumbent upon me to usurp the functions of the court and say: "You must pay the contractor the full amount .that he claims." If the claim is right they ought to pay it; but if there is a bona fide dispute the only way to settle it is to refer it to the arbitrament of the courts. But, in connection with this transaction which we are now considering, the Canadian Northern claim that they will be able to pay the contractors out of money and the proceeds of resources which they have available.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would much rather they did the financing than I. With respect to the $15,000,000, as against $25,000,000, has the minister gone into the matter far enough to be able to say that the $15,000,000 will enable them to finance for the year?


William Thomas White: I would be disposed to agree with my hon. friend, on the statement presented, that I would muoh rather they did the financing than myself; in fact, I indicated that in my speech of yesterday. At the same time they believe that if they get this loan of $15,000,000 to clear up their temporary obligations they will be able to renew their short date securities and finance during the year. It is upon that understanding that we are making the advance of $15,000,000. If it were not so we should either increase the amount or decline to make the loan. But they are satisfied that they can renew existing loans or make new loans, so that they can get the situation cleared up to the extent that we propose, but it does not by any means liquidate the temporary situation.


Frank Oliver: I notice on page 8, under the heading of " Canadian Northern Railway System," the audited statement of:
Bills payable-advance on construction of main line and branch lines, $7,300,000.
How far does that amount of $7,300,000 come into this transaction under consideration now, or does it come in at all.


William Thomas White: It might, because it represents indebtedness incurred on con-

struotioxi account. The Canadian Northern received advances with which it paid contractors who had done work upon the line or paid for material used in construction. They gave notes for that liability, but that money has all been paid to the contractors or for material, and the bills payable are outstanding and represent indebtedness.


Frank Oliver: What particular branch lines are those upon which this work was done?


William Thomas White: I cannot say offhand. I may be able to find out, but I would doubt it, because I should think these advances were made probably either last year, or a year and a half ago, probably since the 1914 legislation in respect to construction, some of the aocounts would be paid off, accounts would be adjusted from time to time, notes given and renewed or paid off, as the case might be. I doubt if it would be possible to say precisely with respect to what line the notes had been given, but I may be able to do it.


Frank Oliver: The point is that the loan going through now represents payment in some degree for work done on branch lines. It is not confined to the main line, as was the contention when the guarantee was going through two years ago. Therefore there is no question of principle that excludes from consideration the branch lines which they brought to the attention of the Government.


William Thomas White: I assume that in the accounting the money might be applied to the indebtedness incurred by expenditures made upon branch lines, and in such case the mortgage is to cover not only the undertaking of the Canadian Northern but to further secure the amount expended upon the branch lines. But my hon. friend will not fail to gather this from the statement, or from what I have said, that in this particular case the money has been actually expended, and the Canadian Northern is confronted with the situation that it has these outstanding bills payable in respect to construction which has been done and which it has paid for by advances for which it has given promissory notes. I entirely followed what my hon. friend said a few moments ago, but I would point out to him that if the $15,000,000 is required by virtue of the present financial situation, then the Canadian Northern would not be able to build further branch lines, or to

make expenditures upon such branch lines, unless the Dominion Government gave a loan in excess of $15,000,000.


Frank Oliver: Quite so.
Sir "THOMAS WTHITE: We are not proposing to do that at the present time.


Frank Oliver: That is what we should
do.


William Thomas White: I do not know
about that. There is nothing to hinder the Government or Legislature of Alberta tomorrow from giving further aid to secure the prompt building of these lines by way of subsidy or guarantee. The Dominion Government has this war on its hands, and the financing of this Dominion is about, the heaviest burden in this country to-day. Our banks are doing well, our financial institutions are in a stronger position than they have been for some years, the credit of the provinces is good, the credit of the municipalities is good; but the Dominion Government has to-day the burden of this war and will have it in the future. I do not say that we should not have the burden of the war; the burden of the war falls squarely where it ought to fall, that is to say, on the federal treasury.
But the point I am making is that if the construction of these roads is as urgent as my hon. friend has pointed out-and 1 believe he is right with regard to some of them-then it might be a proper thing for the Government of Alberta to come forward and, by granting subsidies or by giving additional securities, provide for completion of the lines. I have not answered my hon. friend, because I do not think it advisable to do so, with regard to a* matter of alleged collusion which prevented these lines from being built. To me there is a very simple explanation why the Canadian Northern railway has not built these lines up to the present time, although the monej to proceed with their construction lies, as stated by my hon. friend from Assiniboia, in the bank. The simplest explanation i? this financial statement that I have beer expounding to the House. In view of that statement, how could the Canadian Northern railway raise additional money for the purpose of constructing lines? And even if the money left lying in the bank were sufficient to construct the lines, would the *Canadian Northern railway, at this particular juncture in their affairs, confronted with the situation as disclosed by this balance sheet, be justified in starting these

lines knowing that, as soon as they were completed, the company would have the burden of carrying whatever deficit there was upon their operation, until such time as they became profitable.


Frank Oliver: Not starting lines, but
completing lines already started.


William Thomas White: Even completing lines, and facing the deficit which they would have to meet upon them until they became profitable. I think with my hon. friend that it is very desirable that the sections he mentions should be reached. But railway companies, like individuals, have to do the best they can in the situation which confronts them, and the Canadian Northern railway, like the Grand Trunk Pacific, is to-day confronted with a situation in which they are not able to raise by the sale or pledge of securities the amount of money necessary to complete those lines. Nor aTe they able to face the financial situation which they would have to face by reason of the increase in their obligations due to deficits upon the operations of those lines. It seems to me that if the province of Alberta thinks it of great public interest that these lines should be completed, it might very well eo-me to the assistance of the Canadian Northern railway. As far as the Dominion 'Government is concerned, I think that at this juncture, considering the obligations devolving upon us and the immense burdens of this war, increasing as they are from day to day, we are bearing all the burdens for the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern Tailway that we .should be asked to bear. I believe these are the minimum amounts which will enable these two companies to continue solvent until we can deal in some permanent fashion with the railway situation.


Frank Oliver: I hope the minister will revise one phrase he used to-night. I understood him to say 'that although, the Canadian Northern railway had money in its treasury, raised on the credit of the province, it would not be warranted in spending that money in completing the bargain it had made with the province.


William Thomas White: I did not say that. I proceeded upon the assumption that the money is not sufficient to build and equip the lines. What I was referring to was the additional amount the Canadian Northern will have to raise in order to complete the lines.
Mr.- OLIVER: I am very glad that the minister did not mean to convey the idea as I understood it, because it struck me as being a very serious statement for a Finance Minister to make. At any rate the position is this: He does justify the company in withholding from expenditure the money raised upon the credit of the province, when that expenditure is needed from every point of view.
I say that that is not a desirable position, and, sorry as I should be to criticise the Finance Minister, I certainly consider his attitude very seriously open to criticism. If I may be permitted to pursue this matter further, because it. is a matter of life and death to a portion of the constituency I represent, it is admitted that the Canadian Northern Railway has prosecuted work on some branch lines, and this Government is now prepared to meet the cost of that work without having had direction as to which lines the money should be expended upon. My hon. friend undertakes to draw the distinction between cases in which the company have already spent money, and cases in which the company is absolutely obligated to spend money in order to fulfil their agreements, On page 6 of the printed documents, I find in the list of securities of the Canadian Northern Railway system, under the heading " Guaranteed by Alberta Government," certain mortgage 'bonds and debenture stock of the Canadian Northwestern Railway-I think that means the Canadian Northern Western-showing an asset in the one case of $6,424,000, and in the other case of $2,799,997.73. If I understand this statement correctly, it is intended that a part of the $15,000,000 loan shall be used to pay the interest on these debentures. Is that right?


William Thomas White: The purpose of
this statement was to show the extent to which the Dominion and the provinces had given their guarantees. From the statement it would appear that the securities of the Canadian Northwestern Railway have been guaranteed by the province of Alberta and issued to the amount of $18,950,361.99-if the securities have 'been issued as stated, and I have no doubt they have. The interest would, of course, have to be paid, and to the extent that the Canadian Northern Railway was unable to pay that interest, it would be a charge ranking in priority, I think to the $45,000,000 mortgage, becauses my recollection is that under the legislation of 1914 the stock in this particular company is embraced in part of the mortgage premises.


Frank Oliver: As a matter of fact, we are going to vote money to pay the interest on the bonds of the Canadian Northern Western guaranteed by the provincial Government, the money realized from which is not being used to complete the roads. The roads are not completed and by reason of not being completed, are not in a position to earn the interest that would save its being paid by this Government. I think the case is clear beyond question. When this Government is paying the interest on money that was raised by that guarantee, surely, from the standpoint of the Minister of Finance himself, those roads should be completed and put in a position to earn interest, instead of this Parliament being compelled to pay that interest.


Arthur Meighen: The position of the hon. member for Edmonton is most remarkable. He says that the Government of Alberta has guaranteed certain securities of the Canadian Northern Western railway, that the proceeds of those securities lie in the bank to the credit of the Provincial Treasurer of Alberta, that the company refuse to expend the money, and that the province of Alberta, unfortunately, is not in a position to compel the company to expend it. If that is the case, one of two things is the consequence: Either the province of Alberta made a very improvident bargain with the Canadian Northern, for which the Government of that province is responsible and should be castigated by the hon. member for Edmonton; or else it is impossible to do effective work with the proceeds of those securities; that is to say, it is impossible so to expend them as to make the road complete as to its expenditure. The hon. member for Edmonton must know that money can only be withdrawn from that account and expended provided the road advances to completion with each dollar of expenditure, at such a pace that it will be completed when all the money is gone. Consequently, unless the Canadian Northern Western has additional bonds sufficient to provide for the completion, mile by mile, there is no way by which the Canadian Northern Railway can get the money out.
Mr. OLIVER; Precisely.


Arthur Meighen: Then I suppose the hon. gentleman is arguing that, wherever a province guarantees a certain amount, the Government of this country, if it protects the underlying security, that is guaranteed, must provide sufficient money to

complete the road. That would place the Dominion treasury at the mercy of a province. The province could give a small guarantee and then say to the Dominion Government: Now go ahead; we have already, by what we have done, obligated you to complete that road.
* Mr. OLIVER : Not at all.
Mr. MiEIGHEN: By our providing money to pay this underlying interest the province of Alberta is not providing it. The province of Alberta had control of the sale of the bonds. They should not have allowed the sale of the bonds until they knew that the company was in .a position to complete the road. If they find themselves responsible for interest in the meantime it is their folly, and it is to them the hon. gentleman should go with his castigation. Certain moneys were provided for certain definite purposes by the legislation of 1914. The purposes were all set out item by item -so much to such a road and so much to another; so much for improvements here, so much fox improvements there. Included in that were certain appropriations for the Canadian Northern Western, notwithstanding the fact that the Canadian Northern Western, at the request of the hon. member, remained a purely provincial road and outside the jurisdiction of this Parliament. If the hon. gentleman will look at the blue-book brought in 1914 at page 19, he will see that the proceeds of these securities were to go first in payment of contractors' liabilities in the Canadian Northern, and he will find that $1,809,000 for the Canadian Northern Western was included in the $21,000,000 of contractors' liabilities. And, if he turns to the book issued this session, at page 19, he will find that $1,809,697 of that $45,000,000 was to be applied to the discharge1 of these contractors' liabilities. At page 19 of the blue book of 1914 you find that $310,088 was the amount that was to be expended in new construction on the Canadian Northern Western. On turning to the blue book of this year we find that the following amounts were expended on that construction:	$140,042.47 and $174,444.53; total,
$314,486.90, or about $4,000 more than was contemplated to be spent in new construction out of the $45,000,000, in addition to discharging the contractors' liabilities against the road. Therefore, so far as the moneys under control of this Parliament are concerned, the Canadian Northern Western get the full benefit of the legisia-

tion of 1914; and if they have not received all that we undertook to do for them, if they still find themselves straitened, their money tied up, and unable to complete their lines, the fault lies at the door of the Government of Alberta, and there is where the hon. gentleman should go with his complaint.


Frank Oliver: I cannot follow the hon. gentleman's argument at all. He suggests that, according to my argument, the Government of Alberta, by guaranteeing the bonds of a railway, could obligate this Government to pay interest on the bonds. I said nothing so absurd, nothing could have been further from my ideas than what the hon. gentleman has seen fit to attribute to me. The Government of Alberta has guaranteed the bonds of other companies besides the Canadian Northern. It has guaranteed the bonds of the Great Waterways railway. There is no way by which this Government can be held responsible, directly or indirectly, for that provincial guarantee of bonds. But that is a different matter altogether from the Alberta Government's guarantee of the bonds of the Canadian Northern Railway upon lines which this Government took as a security for the guarantee given by it to the Canadian Northern, assuming proprietorship to the extent of actually paying the interest on the bonds. If this Government undertakes to pay the. interest on the bonds issued in respect of these partially-completed railroads, I say it is good business on the part of this Government to make such further arrangements, even if it involves the payment of money, as will secure the^ completion of these roads and put them on an earning basis, so that, instead of Parliament having * to pay interest, the traffic of the road will pay interest. That is my argument, and I am very sorry that I am not able to get the Government to see what I regard as an eminently fair and commonsense, as well as necessary, proposition.


John Gillanders Turriff: A little while ago the Minister of Finance pointed out that the proceeds of the guarantee of 1914 had gone into the road. Has he any record or statement to show how much of the proceeds of that $45,000,000-some $36,000,000, I think-was paid to construction companies and sub-contractors that were owned and controlled by Mackenzie & Mann?


William Thomas White: I am not aware of any. The Comptroller of the Railway
Department conducted an audit which, in my belief, was thorough, in which all vouchers were inspected and a complete examination made before these moneys were paid over. A more complete audit I could not imagine. His instructions were to see that the money was applied in strict accordance with the terms of the Act. Personally, I am perfectly satisfied that the proceeds of this $45,000,000 loan, paid over on the certificate of Major Bell, who is here to-night, and who did his work, in my judgment, most carefully and thoroughly, were properly paid out under the terms of the legislation of 1914 and the trust mortgage. It was pointed out in 1914 that Mackenzie & Mann were the contracting agents for the Canadian Northern, that they made contracts with sub-contractors and purphased materials, and they built the line; and it was the accounts of the sub-contractors and for the materials which went into the line that were audited by Major Bell. Major Bell tells me that in this matter he went below Mackenzie & Mann, acting as the construction department of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, and inspected and audited the vouchers representing payments made to sub-contractors and for materials. Personally, I have not the slightest doubt that the money was properly applied.


John Gillanders Turriff: That statement does not answer my question. All through the construction of the Canadian Northern from beginning to end this Government and the previous also, so far as I know, have handed over to Mackenzie and Mann, or the Canadian Northern Railway, millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars by way of bonuses and guarantees, and no proper care has been taken to see that the money went into the railroads.


William Thomas White: Does my hon.
friend say that this Government took no proper care in that respect?


John Gillanders Turriff: Yes, that is exactly
what I say.


William Thomas White: What more proper care could have been taken than to provide by legislation that the money should be disposed of in a certain way and for certain specific purposes, and then to have a very competent official of the Railway Department audit and investigate all accounts and payments made before paying over the money? I have been familiar with the payment out of money on construction account for very many years in connection with business, and I do not

know any more strict system of supervision than is exercised by the Railway Department and the Finance Department in the payment of money under the provision of trust deeds securing mortgage issues of railway companies guaranteed by the Dominion Government. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying here to-night that I believe every cent of the money that was provided under the guarantee of 1911 under the late Government and of the $45,000,000 guaranteed under this Government has been properly applied for the purposes for which these moneys were designated by Parliament. The payment out of the money under the $45,000,000 mortgage has been precisely on the same principle as the money was paid out under the $35,000,000 mortgage for which my hon. friend the member for South Renfrew was responsible as Minister of Railways in the late Government.


John Gillanders Turriff: I do not doubt it.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend will not be able to say that any different principle .has been applied, nor will the hon. member for South Renfrew, I am sure, admit that the provision which he made under the mortgage relating to the $35,000,000 guarantee upon the Canadian Northern Railway Company in 1911 was inadequate to protect the public which it was his duty to protect.


John Gillanders Turriff: All I can say is this: That practically from the beginning to the end of the construction of the Canadian Northern railway the contractors for construction were Mackenzie and Mann, who let the work out to .sub-contractors. Is there any hon. member on either side of the House who does not believe that Mackenzie and Mann as contractors took many millions of dollars out of the moneys proceeding from the securities disposed of on account of the subsidies and guarantees by the provinces .and by the Dominion? If the money received from the securities issued on these railroads to the Canadian Northern Railway Company had all gone into the railroads, the company would not be here to-day asking for more aid, because the money would have completed the roads and put them in proper shape. My hon. friend talks about the wonderful audit made by the Railway Department. Well,
I am not much of a hand at auditing, but I notice that while the agreement was made in the middle of July, 1914, on September 12, less than a month afterwards,

a certificate was given for $12,500,000. I do not think that any audit worth talking about could have been made in that time of an expenditure of $12,500,000 in the construction of a railway. The certificates follow in order one after another, so that I do not pay very much attention to an office audit of that kind. It may be all right, but it is more likely to be all wrong. I understand that the proceeds of the $45,000,000 were only some $36,000,000. Am I correct in that?


William Thomas White: $36,000,000 odd.


John Gillanders Turriff: Here we have bonds guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada that are worth only a trifle over 80 cents on the dollar. There must be something wrong in that. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance has been borrowing money at 5 per cen t. Of course, these bonds were at 4 per cent; that would make some difference. At all events, they realized a very poor percentage, and I think if we knew exactly what became of that $36,000,000 we would find that Mackenzie and Mann got a big percentage of it for their purposes. That has been their history from the beginning; to get guarantees and subsidies to build railroads. I will acknowledge that their main line is a pretty fair line.


Arthur Meighen: What beginning does
the hon. gentleman refer to?


John Gillanders Turriff: Although my hon. friend is a very young man, he is old enough to know when Mackenzie and Mann began to build railroads.


Arthur Meighen: In 1896.


John Gillanders Turriff: From the beginning to
the end,, that has been their practice; to get bonuses and guarantees and then issue, to any one who would purchase their bonds securities for a great deal more than ever went into the road. As I was about to say, the main line is not a bad road; I have been over it. But so far as the branch lines are concerned, I know that the proceeds of the bonds they sold, which were guaranteed by the provinces, let alone any other securities they issued on these roads, were far more than enough to build the class of road that they have built. Although they have milked the money out of these railroads and put it in outside private interests, when my hon. friend gave the guarantee of $45,000,000 in 1914 and took a mortgage, the outside securities were not put in at all. On that occasion the railway company ap-

peared to satisfy this Government that the $45,000,000 would see them through. That was the argument two years ago; what is the statement of my hon. friend the Minister of Finance and of the Solicitor General to-night? They bring down a statement and they show that $15,000,000 is the lowest amount that they can get through with. I think the Minister of Finance is right, because here is $92,000,000 of short date indebtedness. In the name of common sense, if this company is $92,000,000 behind, over and above all the securities that they have issued, what is the use of this Government pouring more money into it, especially when we do not know that all this money is going into the railroad? Although wre are responsible to-day for the $45,000,000 guarantee that was given two years ago, of which it is said that $36,000,000 has gone into the road, I doubt if more than $25,0000,000 has gone into the road.
My hon. friend comes forward to-day with a proposition to hand them out another $15,000,000. But if I understand anything about the figures put in our hands, that will not be all we will have to pay this year. Am I right in figuring from this point that in addition to this $15,000,000 we will have to pay interest on that $45,000,000?


William Thomas White: Yes, and upon
the $35,000,000 guarantee which my hon. friend voted for in 1911.


Mr TURRIFF:: $80,000,000.	.


William Thomas White: Yes.


John Gillanders Turriff: So that, in addition to
the $15,000,000 loan, we will have to pay the interest on the $80,000,000 guaranteed in 1911 and 1914, which will be about $3,000,000. So that this year we will have to pay out $15,000,000 plus $3,000,000, that is, $18,000,000 to the Canadian Northern Railway. We know where the $3,000,000 for interest will go of the $15,000,000; but we do not know where all of it will go. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance may be a clever man at handling money, and I give him credit for his ability; but I want to tell him he is not clever enough for the job he has in hand, to see that all that money goes through the hands of Mackenzie and Mann and gets to the right spot, and that none of it is diverted to their own purposes, on any of their side issues.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They will not get their hands on it.


John Gillanders Turriff: If my hon. friend can do that and can show us that he has done so at the next session, I will give him more credit than I give him to-night, much as I respect his financial ability.
Where is this going to end? The company, according to their own showing, have $92,000,000 of present liabilities. And they are not satisfied with these present liabilities. These men are never satisfied unless they are branching out in all directions. During this session, as you know, Mr. Chairman (Mr. Blain), as chairman of the railway committee, we spent weeks and weeks up there fighting-why?	Because
11 p.m. this same railway company, in spite of their bankrupt condition, were bound to get their grip over the western part of Ontario and insisted on building lines there that the Government of the province of Ontario wanted to attend to. And their representative, I think the general manager and third vice-president, insisted that they had the money to build these roads. If they had the money to build these roads in Ontario that would cost tens of millions of dollars, why should they come to this Government and get $15,000,000 and $3,000,000 from the Prime Minister? That is something that has not been answered yet. There is something wrong somewhere, when they have millions of dollars to invest in Ontario, against the wishes of the people of Ontario to build roads which the people of Ontario want to build, and they have not a dollar to pay their debts, and they come to this Government to get this money, and this Government proposes to hand it over to them and get nothing at all for it. They are taking a mortgage. Well, I do not know what good a second, or third, or fourth, or fifth mortgage may be. I would not consider that that $15,000,000 mortgage, when it is completed and registered, would be worth $5. I would not give $5 for it, because in my time or in my children's time it will not be worth a $5 bill, with the interest.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The autograph
signature of William Mackenzie would be worth that.


John Gillanders Turriff: That would be the only thing I would value the mortgage for, the autograph signature of William Mackenzie. I would not mind this so much if I could see any end to it; but just as long as this Government or any other Government of Canada will hand out money to Mackenzie & Mann every time they ask for it, so long will they come here demanding that money,

and you may as well face the music to-day as at any other time. My hon. "friend the Minister of Finance has told us what this war has cost us and what it is going to cost us, and we all know that this war will last for some time. Will we be in a better position to deal with this matter a year from now, or two years from now, than we are to-day, after handing over this money and thus adding to the road's liabilities and not adding much to its value? To my mind it is a case that calls for courage and skillful handling; and you are not going to better the condition by putting off the evil day. If I thought so I would offer no objection to this loan. But it seems to me that we are just going deeper and deeper into the mud, and we shall ultimately have to take the road over; -there is no question about that. I venture the assertion that the statement presented to us does not begin to represent the condition of the road, and that if this road should go into the hands of a receiver, and the receiver's auditors went through the company's books and found out the exact position of the road, a very different state of affairs would be disclosed. That is the objection I make to pouring this money into the pockets of the road when we do not know anything, or at least very little, about its true condition. An hon. member asked where we would be in the course of a few years if things took a turn for the good. We might get our money back. In the meantime the Government -has 40 per cent of the common stock of the. road, and I ask my hon. friend the Minister of Finance and the Solicitor General that on this occasion, when we are coming to the rescue of the Government-


Arthur Meighen: It is scarcely that.


John Gillanders Turriff: Almost that, for in my judgment the Government is in just about as precarious a position as the Canadian Northern Railway is in. I meant to say that now that the Government is coming to the rescue of the Canadian Northern Railway, I ask the ministers if they are taking the precaution to make the Canadian Northern hand over their common stock-not that it is worth anything in the meantime in the way of cash value. But I ask if they are taking the precaution to make the road hand over a least a controlling interest in that common stock, so that when they come to deal with the road in the future, they will not be dictated to in the way the Canadian Northern is able to dictate to this or any other Government that may be in

power, under' present conditions. Now is the opportunity to do it. Is my hon. friend going to do anything of that kind? The Government can get that common stock if they insist on it. It is not, as I said, worth anything in cash to-day, but it would give the Government of Canada, after putting up this extra $15,000,000, control of the road whenever they wanted to take it, and it might save a .great deal of trouble in the very near future If $92,000,000 of debt is standing against the road, short date debts, and the company ran behind to the extent of $10,000,000 last year-


Arthur Meighen: 


John Gillanders Turriff: - if the company ran behind to that extent last year, when we had a most phenomenal crop, and when the Canadian Northern handled a very large percentage of that crop, how can the Government expect better things next year or the following year? It is altogether unlikely that we shall have such a crop as that of la-st year during the next five years. This year the acreage is very much less, and even supposing you were to have a yield-


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman forgets that last year, so far as the railway company is -concerned, ended dn June, 1915, and there could not be very much of the crop shipped at that time.


John Gillanders Turriff: In that case they would not have the benefit of the large -crop, and that benefit will come within the present financial year. But I think I heard the Minister of Finance give an estimate which' did not show that the company were likely to be in a very fine position even with the handling of that crop. I asked the Minister of Finance yesterday if he could give any information as to what it would cost to complete the road, that is to- put the branch lines in shape so that they could do business profitably. Many of the branch lines cannot do business in the winter time, and cannot earn profits in the condition in which they are. A railway company cannot make profits on a road that is tied up by snow and frost for weeks and months at a time. I agree with -what my hon. friend from Edmonton has said. I will not speak for many of the provinces .except Saskatchewan, but I venture the assertion that there is not a branch line of the Canadian Northern in Saskatchewan which, if completed, and put in anything like decent shape, w-ill not earn operating expenses and

interest on the cost of the road-I will not say interest on the securities that have been issued against the road, but interest on every dollaT that went into the building and equipment of the road.


Arthur Meighen: Why do the Grand Trunk branch lines not pay interest?


John Gillanders Turriff: I think that their branch lines in Saskatchewan will pay interest.


Arthur Meighen: Not one of them.


John Gillanders Turriff: They will earn operating expenses and interest.


Arthur Meighen: Only two of them earn operating expenses the rest show a deficit in that respect, and not one of them pays interest.


John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend is probably taking only what the branch line itself earns, but he probably knows enough about railway matters, since he has- been a pupil of the Canadian Northern for two or three years, to know that a branch line is entitled to a certain amount more than is earned on the line itself, because it supplies traffic to the main line.


Arthur Meighen: Then how is it that the main line is losing and is not paying operating expenses?


William Pugsley: The Grand Trunk Pacific statement shows earnings amounting to $600,000.


Arthur Meighen: On one part. But there is a deficit on the other part, and there is a net deficit of $200,000, or a deficit of $500 a day for every day of operation, without a cent for interest. I am taking it altogether. Even on the prairie division the earnings are a small fraction.


William Pugsley: $600,000 is not a small fraction.


Arthur Meighen: It is a very small fraction of the debt. Will the hon. gentleman fit that into his argument?


John Gillanders Turriff: There is not branch of the Canadian Northern railway in the province of Saskatchewan that I have been over, and I have been over a great many, that will not earn operating expenses and interest, and that will not earn interest on every dollar that went into the building of the road. I do not say that they will earn interest on all the securities that are charged up against them, because when you charge up $20,000 of securities a mile
on branch lines on the prairie and you only put in from $10,000 to $12,000, or perhaps $15,000 a mile-


Arthur Meighen: In the case of the Grand Trunk it is $42,000 a mile.


John Gillanders Turriff: That may be, but the branch lines of the Grand Trunk are very different from the branch lines of the Canadian Northern. In most cases the Canadian Northern branch lines are very cheaply built, and ' they are charged up with securities to the extent of from $20,000 to $25,000 a mile.


Arthur Meighen: Not quite.


John Gillanders Turriff: Yes, $20,000 a mile. There was a railroad built by the city of Winnipeg from Winnipeg east within the last couple of years, and the only difference between the construction of that road and the construction of the branch lines on the prairie by the Canadian Northern is that the rails are somewhat lighter. They have a 60-pound rail, and in some cases the branch lines may have rails over 60 pounds. That road was built and equipped, as far as was necessary, for $12,000 a mile, or about half of what is charged up on the Canadian Northern, proving what I say that the money that this Government and the local Governments have advanced, as well as the proceeds of securities not guaranteed by either, has been switched from the Canadian Northern altogether, and put into concerns in Mexico, Toronto and elsewhere, and has gone into the pockets of the promoters of these enterprises. Now they come forward, and they do not put up one cent of their money. They did not put up anything two years ago when they came and asked for a guarantee. The Government gave that guarantee, and took no precautions to see that the money all went into the road, and now the company comes forward again and says: You must give us more money or we will throw the road on your hands. They came and held the Government up, and now the Government says: Well, we will give you $15,000,000 more and pay $3,000,000 of interest. That is the position of affairs to-day, and next year it will be just as bad, and perhaps worse. What are you going to do about it? Why not face the music like men? The war is not going to be over next year; certainly our war expenditure will not be over, and what better position can we expect to be in? We will have $300,000,000 or perhaps $400,000,000 more of debt than we have to-day, and we will be

in a worse position to deal with this question. It is a most serious matter. Inside of five years Canada will have from one and a half billions to two billion dollars of debt to face. These two railroads will have to be looked after in some way, and if the Government takes them over, or keeps on fathering them, we will be liable for the whole business; and we will have from $75,000,000 to $100,000,000 of fixed charges and interest to pay every year. The situation will be worse if you let Mackenzie & Mann handle the Canadian Northern. If you are going to give them the money, why not give it iri such a manner that you will have some control. I do not like the idea of Government ownership; I have no use for it if it can be avoided; but there may be a worse thing than Government ownership. According to my idea, -it is a worse thing to pour money in and let somebody else handle it just as it suits him while you take the liability, and while you are not sure that all the money goes into the road. That is the position we are in to-day, and I think the Government ought to reconsider their attitude in regard to the matter. There might be some excuse for going to the rescue of these two roads because the Dominion and the provinces have so much in them, but what excuse is there for voting millions, either money or guaranteed bonds, to take over two roads in Quebec and to add to the Intercolonial that is losing money every year, simply to help out a political friend at a time when Canada cannot afford to put $1,000,000, or $4,000,000, in cash or securities into these roads? It is bad enough to help out the roads that the Government has some liability for, but to shoulder new liabilities where the Government has no responsibility whatever is one of the most criminal things that a government could do considering the financial position that Canada is in to-day.
Progress reported.	[DOT]
'On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House adjourned at 11.20.
Wednesday, May 10, 1916.