1916-02-09

PRIVATE BILLS INTRODUCED.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 22, to incorporate Edmonton and Southwestern Railway Company. - Mr. Douglas.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 23, to incorporate The Ontario Niagara Connecting Bridge Company.-Mr. German.
Bill No. 24, respecting the Toronto, Niagara and Western Railway Company.'-Mr. Morphy.
Bill No. 25, to incorporate the Western Canada Telephone Company.-Mr. Green.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated-by an asterisk.]

Mr. FRIPP:: 1.	Is the Government aware that the cable companies operating the lines between Canada and the Mother Country, as also the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company operating between Canada and Ireland, have cancelled or suspended their deferred rates and week-end letters, thereby imposing an extra burden upon Canadian citizens who have sons at the front or in England, and who may desire to communicate with them by telegraph?
2.	Has the Board of Railway Commissioners authority over Atlantic or wireless rates?
3.	If so, will the Government move the
Board of Railway Commissioners to compel the cable and wireless companies to restore deferred and week-end letter rates?	:


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I expected to
have bad the answer to this question today, but, 'although the telegram containing the information has been received, it has not yet been put in form to present to the House.


FOREIGN STEAM TRAWLERS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Were any steps taken by the Government in 1915 to prohibit foreign steam trawlers from purchasing coal and supplies in Canadian ports?
2.	If so, what has been done?


Mr. HAZEN:: No new instructions were given in 1915. In view of claims made regarding treaty obligations with France, it was not considered advisable to deny coal to French trawlers; but a regulation was adopted by which all steam trawlers are required before obtaining a clearance to give an undertaking that they will not fish within twelve miles from land, and supervision has been exercised to prevent breaches of this undertaking.


CENSORS AND DECODERS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How many decoders were employed by the Department of Militia in Canada during the year 1915?
2.	How many censors were employed by the Department of Militia during the year 1915?

3.	Have women been employed as decoders or censors? If so, how many?
4.	How much has been expended in connection with the services of censors and decoders during the year 1915?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Forty-nine.
2.	Including assistant censors, 65..
3.	No.
4.	$138,400.14 (for calendar year).
Note.-The foregoing figures show all the persons employed during 1915, and include a number of persons who left the service before its close. On November 30 the staff was:	deputy chief censor, 1; censors, 11;
assistant censors, 35; decoding clerks, 36.


RIDING MOUNTAIN TIMBER RESERVE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. M- MARTIN:
1.	Is the Minister of Interior aware as to whether or not certain promissory notes were given by certain Galicians to one R. H. Keay for obtaining homestead in the Riding Mountain timber reserve?
2.	If so, is the minister aware as to whether or not any of such notes are held by the Union Bank for collection?
3.	Is the minister aware as to whether or not the said bank brought action on any notes of the nature referred to, or is attempting to enforce the payment of the same?
4.	If so, does the minister propose to inquire into the matter above referred to, and if he finds such action is being taken by the said bank, does he propose to take steps to protect in any way the makers of such notes?
5.	Referring to the minister's statement, published in Hansard of 1915, Vol. 11, page 1580, what steps has the minister taken to carry out the line of policy therein set out?
Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Have been so informed.
4.	Matter has been referred to the Justice Department.
5.	Matter has been referred to the Justice Department.


SOLDIERS AT ST. LEONARD, N.B.
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	How many soldiers have drilled at St. Leonard, N.B., during the year 1915?
2.	How many of these soldiers were called upon each day during said year to watch the International Railway Bridge between Van Buren, in the state of Maine, and St. Leonard, N.B. ?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Authorized strength: 1 officer, 26 other ranks.
2.	Present strength: 1 officer and 18 other ranks, supplying one sentry by day and two sentries by night. Detachment was never over authorized strength of 1 officer and 26 other ranks.


STEAM TRAWLERS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: Is the declaration required to be given to the customs officer by the master of a steam trawler on obtaining a clearance from Canadian port, in writing?


Mr. REID:: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the International Conference promised in the speech of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, delivered on April 9, 1915, relating to steam trawling regulations, ever been invited or called?


John Douglas Hazen: The Imperial authorities
were requested to arrange for such conference; but it was considered best to postpone the matter until after the war.


DUTY ON PEARLS AND DIAMONDS.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: What is the customs duty, and what is the war tax on pearls and diamonds, both set ana unset, when imported into Canada?


John Dowsley Reid: 648-Pearls, pierced, split, strung or not, but not set or mounted-Preferential, 7$ per cent plus 5 per cent war tax; French treaty, 10 per cent plus 7i per cent war tax; General, 10 per cent, plus 7J per cent war tax.
648a - Diamonds, unset: - Preferential, free plus 5 per cent war tax; French treaty,

plus 71 per cent war tax; General, free
plus 7J per cent war tax.
647-Diamonds or pearls, mounted or set: -Preferential, 22| per cent, plus 5 per cent war tax; French treaty, 30 per cent, plus 71 per cent war tax; General, 35 per cent, plus 7J per cent war tax.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
For a return showing the different rural mail routes in the Strathcona constituency, their location and date of establishment, and all rural routes under consideration at the present time. -Mr. Douglas.
For a copy of all documents, letters, messages, correspondence, reports, etc., regarding the cancellation of the subsidy contract to the Com-pagnie de Navigation Trans-St. Laurent, and the granting of a like contract to another company, for service between RiviSre du Loup, Tadoussac and other ports on the north shore, including all correspondence exchanged between the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Post Office Department, or the ministers of such departments and the two above-named companies.-Mr. Gauvreau.
For a return showing the name, port of registry, tonnage and name of the master of all steam trawlers that cleared outwards from the port of Canso, Nova Scotia, in the year 1915. Also a copy of all reports and declarations under the hand of the master or chief officer of each of the said trawlers so clearing outward from said port since April IS, 1915, required to be
signed by such masters under the provisions of an Order in Council passed on the 16th of April, 1915.-Mr. Sinclair.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. A. ROBB (Huntingdon) moved for:
All correspondence and reports relating to the closing of the customs preventive station at Vicars, Quebec; the opening of customs House office or preventive station at Frontier, Quebec, county of Huntingdon, and subsequent protest against the closing of the office at Vicars. Also for a return showing reports since 1912 of inspectors and collector as to the administration and ability of preventive officer of customs John W. Curran, recently dismissed, at Vicars, Quebec.
He said: Though this may seem to the members of the House just one of the ordinary motions for the production of papers, to the people of the township of Havelock, Howick, St. Chrysostome, and all that section of country that has been continuously served for the past twenty-six years by the Customs station at Vicars, it is a very important matter. Early in December, when the announcement was made that the preventive station at Vicars was to be closed, there was a division of opinion in the community. Conservatives pointed out with pride that this Government was economizing; others said: Our Government friends at Ottawa have at last recognized that we were right in 1910, when we sent a deputation to the Government asking for reciprocity, and they are now going to give us reciprocity by closing this Custom office, and they will continue to close others all alon£ this road. But a few days afterwards, when it was learned that the Government had reopened another office 3i miles along the road, and out in a field,, there was a hurried convention of the faithful Conservative friends, and resolutions were passed. and sent to Ottawa protesting against the closing of the office at Vicars. It might interest the House to know that	for	some years priorto	1882,	there	was a	preventivecustoms officer at Vicars. In 1882 the then officer,	Mr. Boardman, resigned,and Mr.	Arthur Roberts	was appointed in his place. Mr. Roberts lived at Frontier, and died in 1889. Alex. Fiddes was then appointed customs house officer there, and he held the office until he died in 1906; and if there was one man in that community more than another who was an active Conservative it was Alex. Fiddes. Not only was he a good worker himself, but he had a large family and connection, and they were all active workers whenever there
was an ©lection. Fidd.es held that office for seven years under a Conservative Administration and for ten years under a Liberal Administration. All that time he was undisturbed, and free to take part in elections at election time. In 1906 Mr. Fiddes died, and Mr. John Curran was appointed in his place. Mr. Curran held that office until it was abolished in December last. No reason was given to him why the office was abolished; all he received was an official letter from the Department of Customs at Ottawa, saying that there was no complaint whatever against him, but that the office had simply been abolished. Vicars is on a Toad leading direct to the United States. It is a .splendid road, and has recently been macadamized right up to the international boundry line, and it is along this road, where the Vicars office was, that all the automobile traffic and business from the United States goes. The new office opened at Frontier is 3i miles from Covey Hill, and it is not on any direct road leading to the United States. Whatever explanation the Government mav offer, I think they will have a hard time with their political friends in Havelock to justify the removal of the preventive station from Covey Hill to Frontier, unless it be that the Government are repentant and now wish to allow our farmers to trade undisturbed with the United States.
John Dowsley Reid: I have no objection 'at all to bring down any papers in connection with this matter. For many years there has been a great deal of smuggling from the United States into Canada all along the frontier from New Brunswick to Ontario. There are, of course, many roads leading from the United States into Canada, and it is not always easy to decide upon the best place for an office. It is, of course, impossible to have an office on every road leading from the United States into Canada. From the remarks made by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Robb) I gather that for many years there has been a difference of opinion even in that particular locality. He has told us that the . Customs office had been at Vicars continuously for twenty-six years, an I that it was then changed to a place called Frontier, which is three and ia half miles west of Vicars. My officials tell me that there has been a great deal of smuggling on the road that leads from the United States pa-*. Frontier Comers; that

right at the very spot where the office is now established a very large seizure was made a few years ago. In fact, nearly all the seizures that have been made in that part of the country have been made along that road leading from the United States.


Mtr. ROBB:: The seizure that my hon. friend refers to was made by John Curran the dismissed officer, at Vicars comers. There are no corners at Frontier.


John Dowsley Reid: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. W. S. MIDDLEBRO (North Grey) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, in all future appointments to the Civil Service of Canada, preference should be given to those properly qualified candidates who have served with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces in the present war.
He said: My object in placing this resolution upon the Order Paper is two-fold: First to elicit an expression of opinion from this House as to the advisability of [DOT]securing for those who have already enlisted a simple measure of adequate justice, and secondly to stimulate recruiting by giving publicity to the fact that those

who in future enlist will receive preferential treatment at the bands of this Government in the filling of all vacancies in the Civil Service of Canada.
We have been urging the citizens of this country, by public meetings 'and by private solicitations, and in every manner which we thought best, to give preferential treatment to those of our Canadian Expeditionary Force who are fortunate enough to return from the front. If it was a proper thing to urge private corporations and firm's employing labour to give that preferential treatment, we, certainly should set the example as a state, and the state has a splendid opportunity of so doing by filling all vacancies in the public .service with men from the Canadian Expeditionary Force. As all those who return will not be able to secure appointments in the Civil Service, we shall have to create a preferential class among them, and in doing so, no doubt we shall take into consideration the fact that those who have been wounded, but who after a certain period will be able to perform the duties appertaining to civil servants, should be given preferential treatment among those who have served in the Canadian Expeditionary Force. One naturally looks about for precedents in bringing up a resolution of this kind, hut if there were none, the tremendous sacrifices and the general upheaval of the .traditional order of things consequent upon the present struggle, would be sufficient justification for us to create .a precedent; but fortunately in nearly every country preferential treatment has been given to ex-soldiers and ex-sailors who have .served in any of the wars of their country.
In July, 1877, ia select committee of the British House o.f Commons had under consideration the following questions:
1.	"Whether a better class of men would be induced to enter the military or naval service if the prospect were held out to them of civil employment after a certain period of meritorious service.
2.	"What would be the effect on the civil service of the introduction into it in a greater degree than hereto of persons who have served in the army and navy.
In regard to the former they reported:
That there is reason to believe that if it were well understood that a considerable number of suitable civil appointments were to be given to soldiers when their term of service expired, the effect on recruiting would be good and some men of a better stamp might be induced to enter the army.
41 i	1
With regard to question No. 2 they reported:
That a preference should be given to exsoldiers and sailors for appointment to the different positions named in the said report.
A second committee was appointed in 1894 to report upon the results which had followed the recommendations of the first committee, and also to report what further measures were desirable for the purposes of extending the employment of soldiers and sailors to the civil departments of the State and for helping them to obtain service with private employers of labor. Among other things this committee reported:
(a)	That in annually sending back to civil life so many thousands of reservists the State contracts towards these men a moral obligation which it should not hesitate to discharge.
(b)	That it would greatly popularize the service in the army and improve the status of the soldier if serving with the colours can be made under ordinary circumstances a condition of appointment or employment in the departments of the public service.
Many other recommendations were made, all with a view of assisting ex-soldiers to preferential treatment in the Civil Service and other branches of Government employment.
*Another committee .in 1883, reported in favour of employing the army and navy pensioners in the outdoor .and non-clerical branches of the Civil Service.
In 1906 a further speeial committee of the British House of Commons which went into the matter very exhaustively reported among other things:
It is the duty of the state to set the best example in the method of treating its servants and it seems to us essential that is should at once take steps to carry out such important recommendations, and to place itself on at least as favourable a footing as regards its -employees as that of other employers.
We therefore most earnestly urge that definite instructions should be issued to the various departments that ex-soldiers and sailors are to be given a prior claim to employment in the various posts in the Government service to which we alluded, and to any others for which their services may be suitable. For we are persuaded that such preference, given as it is by many employers of labour and public bodies, is all the more imperative on the part of the State. We feel, however, that by this means only can the State relieve itself of the moral obligation which is placed upon it for those who have borne arms and endangered their lives in its service.
Some of the recommendations of this committee were:
1. That an association which would be financially assisted by but not under the control of the Admiralty, and the War Office, should be

created for the provision of employment for exsoldiers and sailors.
2.	That the Government should direct the various public departments to fill vacancies in the appointments detailed in appendices 2 to 5, and any others which may be suitable, by exsoldiers and sailors of good character, and that only in the event of such candidates not being forthcoming are the posts to be filled by civilians.
Among other recommendations of this committee were:
3.	All future vacancies for customs preventive men should be filled by ex-soldiers and sailors.
4.	That at least half the vacancies for outdoor customs officers should be set aside for ex-soldiers and sailors.
5.	That the majority of vacancies for assistant clerks should be similarly dealt with.
6.	That all established messengerships should be so filled.
7.	That county and burough councils should be urged to reserve a number of appointments for ex-soldiers and sailors.
So far as my research has gone, it has satisfied me that these recommendations have all been from time to time carried out by the British Government. I tried to learn what had been done by the United States Government after the Civil War in 1865. I find that the recommendations made by the American Government in 1865 are still part of the Civil Service regulations in force on the 15th of August last. After the Civil War, or, perhaps, before it was over, a resolution was % moved and passed in the United States House of Representatives, which was afterwards enacted verbatim as section 1754 of the Revised Statutes of the United States, as follows:
Persons honourably discharged from military and naval service by reason of the disability resulting from wounds or sickness incurred in the line of duty shall be preferred for appointments to civil offices provided they are found to be possessed of the business capacity necessary for the proper discharge of the duties of such offices.
That is still the law of the United States, and it is followed in the administration of jihe Civil Service. A resolution was passed on the same day, afterwards embodied in the law, and now appearing as section 1755 *of the Revised Statutes of the United States, as follows:
In grateful recognition of the services and *sacrifices and sufferings of persons honourably discharged from the military and naval service of the country by reason of wounds disease or the expiration of the terms of enlistment it is respectfully recommended to bankers, merchants, mechanics, manufacturers, farmers, and persons engaged in industrial pursuits to give them the preference for appointments to remunerative situations and employments.

It is gratifying to note that the United States, before making recommendations to others, first declared by resolution and by law that they would do that which they asked others to do. In looking over the Freneh legislation, I find that, at least since 1870, the year of the Franco-Prussian War, there has been legislation upon the French statute books giving preferential treatment to ex-soldiers and sailors, wounded or partially incapacitated when on service at the front. That law is in effect at the present time. On November 15 last the Chamber of Deputies passed a Bill on this subject, which, as it is very short, I ask leave to put on Hansard. I do not know that this has been finally enacted into law through subsequent action of the Senate, but I understand that it has been, and certainly it is not likely that the Senate would make any very material amendments to a measure which was passed unanimously by the Chamber of Deputies. A free translation of this Act is as follows:
Relating to the reservation, under certain conditions, of employments to the men in the Army and Nav,y invalided No. 1, or retired by reason of wounds or infirmities contracted in active service during the present war.
The Chamber of Deputies has adopted the Bill drafted as follows:
Section 1. The military men of the Army and Navy invalided No. 1, or retired through wounds or infirmities resulting from wounds or illness caught in front of the enemy shall benefit, for a term of five years, dating from the end of the hostilities, by a right of preference for the obtaining of all positions reserved b,y statements E, F, and G, annexed to the law of the 21st of March, 1905, whatsoever be their rank or the length of their services-such right of preference to be granted in the first place in favour of fathers of the most numerous families.
They may be admitted to the benefit of said positions, even though they had, on the first day of August, 1914-
The date of the order of mobilization of the land armies and navies.
-passed the age limit as it is determined for obtaining the certificate of professional qualification under section 14 of the rule of public administration of the 26th of August, 1905, amended, to be in force under section 60 of the law of the 21st of March, 1905.
Section 2. A rule of public administration, which shall intervene within three months after the enactment of the present law, shall determine the classification of wounds or infirmities allowing to compete for the obtaining of a position reserved according to the terms specified in the herein above section.	,
Such rule shall likewise determine the manner in which to obtain the certificate of professional qualification, and the conditions under which the candidates shall he entered on a special . list established for each position, by the commission created in conformity with section 70 of the law of the 21st o'f March, 1905.
Section 3. A right of preference shall be

granted to such military men as are provided for in section first of this law, to compete for the obtaining of positions not reserved by the law of the 21st of March, 1905.
The administrations provided for in statements E, F and G. annexed to the law of the 21st of March, 1905, as well as the industrial and commercial undertakings holding a monopoly or a Government subsidy from the Department of the Commune, shall determine such lists and terms and conditions of access to positions as are apt to be granted to said military men, and they shall notify the Minister of War thereof, within four months after the enactment of the present law.
Section 4. No industrial or commercial undertaking shall, in the future, be granted a monopoly or a Government subsidy, from the Department of the Commune, except on condition of reserving to military men, who are the object of this law, a certain number of positions to be determined by the specifications in which account shall be taken of the situation of the fathers of numerous families, as provided for in section 1.
Section 5. All provisions: contrary to the present law are repealed.
Adopted in Public Assembly, at Paris, November the 19th, 1915.
The President.
(Signed) Paul Deschanel.
The Secretaries :
(Signed) Petral, Peyroux, Le Cherpy.
The effect of this Act is to provide that for the period of five years after the termination of hostilities a preference shall be given to military and naval men who have been wounded while on active service, and who are qualified to fulfill the duties gf the office in the Civil Service. That means that they shall have the right to make application for positions which are vacant during a period of five years after the cessation of hostilities. It also means that a preference shall be given in the preferred class to those persons who have the largest families, and, in the third place, it means that all public corporations which held any kind of monopoly or which have been granted in any way a public bonus are required to reserve a certain number of their positions for men who have been wounded at the front. I do not know that we could use that provision, because we are not in the habit of granting monopolies. It is true that certain undertakings have received bonuses, but whether or not it would be right to apply this provision to them and make it retroactive, I am not at all prepared to say. I do think, however, that we would be quite justified in making the provision that preference shall be given to the men having the largest families.
It would be quite impossible, of course, to make provision for all those who served in an expeditionary force numbering from
250,000 to 300,000 men, much less to make provision for all those who have been wounded, and it necessarily follows that we must make some selection from among them for the very limited number of positions in the Civil Service that will be open to them. Broadly speaking, those who will return may be divided into four classes: able-bodied men who shall not have been wounded or incapacitated, for whom situations and positions shall have been kept open by patriotic employers. These men would naturally receive preferential treatment after the other classes have been provided for. Second, able-bodied men who were out of work at the time of their enlistment, or who have been superseded in their absence, and invalided and wounded men similarly situated, who will recover after a period of convalescence. Third, invalided and wounded men who are unable to follow their previous occupations by reason of some disability, but who will be capable after a certain time to take up other work. Fourth, men who will be permanently disabled and unable to earn their living under any circumstances. I presume it would be impossible for us to make any provision for the latter class in the Civil Service; they would have to rely entirely upon their pensions.
I know that employment commissions for returned soldiers have been appointed by the various Provincial Governments. The object of these commissions, as set out in pamphlets distributed throughout the country, is to ask employers to give preferential treatment to the wounded men returning from the front, and who will, after a certain length of time, be able to attend to their ordinary avocations. But while we have appointed those commissions in the various provinces, I am not aware that we ourselves are doing the things that we are asking these commissions to do. In the province of Quebec there has been appointed an employment commission, of which the Hon. G. A. Simard is chairman. Mr. Simard has with him a committee of seven prominent men of the province, among whom I am glad to see the name of my hon. friend for Maisonneuve (Mr. Ver-ville). This commission is doing good work in the province of Quebec. In all the other provinces similar commissions have been appointed under the designation of military hospitals commissions. It is our duty, I think, to pass a resolution of the kind 1 now offer, so that those who have enlisted will be entitled to a preference in the Civil

Service. Besides, it will be a great stimulus to recruiting if we show the men that we appreciate their efforts and sacrifices, by passing a resolution providing that returned wounded soldiers who, when convalescent, will be able to perform the duties of a civil servant, will receive preferential treatment at the hands of the Canadian Government.
The first and paramount duty of Canada t'o-day is the prosecution of this war to a successful conclusion. We are urging private individuals and corporations to reserve for returned' soldiers occupations previously held by them, and generally to give preference to those who have served - on the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. The State should he the first to set this example, and the way is open to the State through the medium of the Civil Service, and anything which we can in reason do now as a reward for those who have offered their lives in behalf of their country, and as a 'Stimulus to further recruiting, is not only justifiable but is a duty.
This is a fight for national life. If we lose, some one else will appoint our civil servants, but we will still have to pay them. If we win, those who fought for and retained for us our power of appointment should be the appointees; at any rate, they should receive preferential treatment. No citizen of the State performs a more noble act, or better measures up to the supreme test of citizenship, than he who offers his life for his country in the present crisis, and hence he is entitled to preferential treatment at the hands of the State. Those applicants for Civil Service employment, who could have, but have not, offered their services to the State, can not complain if preference is given to the man who was willing to sacrifice his life for the State at a time when the national life was at stake. Who is more entitled to a position in the gift of the State than the citizen who has been so maimed fighting for the State that he is unable to carry on his previous occupation, though able to fulfil the duties of a Civil Service official?	.
I am sure that every day the real meaning of this war is more forcibly brought home to us. Every day members of this House receive a list of casualties, and they look over them for the purpose of ascertaining, perhaps, if there are any casualties amongst men who have enlisted from their own particular constituencies, or amongst persons with whom they are acquainted. I find that there are 29 names

in the list of wounded to-day; the addresses of the men whose names appear in this list are as follows: Hants, N.S., Winnipeg, Man., Beamsville, Ont., Vancouver, B.C., Speneerville, Ont., Peterborough, Ont., St. Faustm, Que., Sherbrooke, Quo., Paw-tuckett, Rhode Island, Campbellton, N.B., Liverpool, England, Kamloops, B.C., Edmonton, Alta., Belleville, Ont., Halifax, N.S., Leeds, Eng., Norfolk, Eng., Fife, Scotland, Liverpool, Eng., Ratho, Scotland, Elie, Scotland, Stornoway, Scotland, Glasgow, Scotland, Maidstone, Eng. Those whose addresses are given as England or Scotland are those who were the first to take up arms: Englishmen, Irishmen and Scotchmen, some of them reservists, no doubt, who gladly and voluntarily enlisted at the commencement of the war and went with the first expeditionary force. This list of thirty wounded men in one day is the result of the ordinary normal everyday fighting on the western front. At this rate, over 10,000 men are wounded in a year, without taking into any account any pitched battles or special engagements. At this rate, in three years' time we should have 30,000 wounded soldiers to take care of, and I have no doubt that that is not half the number of men that we shall have to provide for in connection with the present war. So I say that it comes home to most of us as it has never come before, that we must do something to provide for these .men who will return from the front. Thousands of families after this war will appreciate as they never appreciated before the full meaning of the poet's words:
Oh, for the touch of a vanished hand.
And the sound of a voice that is still.
We cannot do anything for those who have fallen, but we can do something for their relatives; we can do something for those who are willing to offer their lives in defence of their country by providing that upon their return they shall be given a preference in the matter of appointments to the Civil Service if they shall be able to perform the duties of a civil servant-
The right hon. leader of the Opposition has said that this war has been a revelation in many respects. It has been a revelation in this respect; that notwithstanding the fact that we were living in an age of wealth, ease and luxury, we are glad to know to-day that the best traditions of the British Empire and of the British race have been more than upheld in the present great titanic struggle. We were apt to think perhaps that conditions

in the city of Paris gave ns a true insight into the character of the French people. But a snapshot of the city of Paris is not a photograph of France, and a photograph of France is not a,picture of the mind or the heart or the soul of the French people. You may photograph the materialistic exterior, but you cannot photograph the mind or the soul or the heart of the people. Only when a great emergency comes upon us do we really know the inner feelings and qualities of the people. I am glad to say that France, England and Canada have all more than measured up to expectations and to the best traditions of these races.
For these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I think I make a very reasonable request when 1 ask for the affirmative opinion of this House-I hope it will be unanimous-upon the suggestion that after the war is over those who have served in the Canadian expeditionary force shall, other things being equal, be given a preference in the matter of appointments to positions in the Canadian Civil Service.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (South Renfrew): I am sure that the House has been very much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Middlebro) as well as in the matter of his resolution. The circumstances under which we now find ourselves have, in a way, made a new Canada- We view things from a different standpoint; we seem to have got closer together as a people. While doing our part in the great struggle in which we are engaged, we are knitted in a closer web, than ever before has bound us. The idea of altruism seems to have spread not only in this House, but throughout the entire Dominion.
We perhaps may have been taught the lesson, and it may possibly have been needed, that supreme selfishness is not the best characteristic of a people, and while each may have been going on his way for years, and taking his share of the general prosperity that seemed to have been given to this country in abundance, we may have forgotten what to us may seem to have been the smaller things and, amongst them, the well-being of those around us. After all, the ideal of a man ought to be to so conduct himself and to so treat those with whom he comes in contact, that when he is called hence the world will at least be a better place for his having lived in it.
The men who have been asked to go to the front should not only have our best
wishes and heartiest support but, what to them is more important: they ought to know that their families shall not want for any necessity while they are at the war. This is the first and supreme business of this Parliament after providing for the men who go to the front. We must begin by assuring the men at the front, or the men who are asked to go to the front, that while they are fighting our battles and doing the work that we ourselves might be called upon to do, those who are near and dear to -them must have, not as a matter of charity or generosity, but of actual right, everything they require while the bread-winners are at the front, and who are engaged in a work far more important than anything ever before conceived by the people of Canada. It must be remembered that our armies are composed not only of men from the ordinary walks of life:	mechanics, artisans, and
workmen, but that professional and business men are locking their doors, giving up their business, putting aside their ordinary avocations, forsaking not only what to them means a livelihood but considerable profit, and going to the front in order that we who are left behind may continue to enjoy those liberties for which our forefathers fought and died.
When our brave fellow-eftizens come back, should they be allowed to be objects ' of charity? Sir, no Canadian who goes to the front must ever be allowed to stand at the street corner and pass the hat for charity. He is entitled to be 3 p.m. taken care of by the state so long as he lives. It does, not tend to strengthen the fibre of manhood that a man who fought and bled for his country should live on charity, and no man who has courage to go to the front would want that. The duty of the Government, and of Parliament, is plain; we should put ourselves on record as being prepared to give the first opportunity to the men who have made this sacrifice. Heretofore we have passed Civil Service Acts, and we have appointed men largely on account of their being political warriors, but now we have an opportunity of giving our returned soldiers positions which they have earned because of duty courageously, ably, and nobly performed. As a nation we ought to rise to the situation without any question or quibble about it.
My hon. friend (Mr. Middlebro) has referred to the provisions made in France, Great Britain, and the United States, and although we aTe not going to take an

example from Germany, still it may be noted that Germany has made provision for her retired soldiers. If you take a trip through that country, as you possibly will in a few years, after it is defeated, you will find that all along the lines of government-owned railways old soldiers are given positions at a comparatively fair salary, and the statutes of the different portions of the German Empire which own and control the railways, provide that these men shall' be entitled to the first claim on these positions.
We are all one in wishing to do this, and to do it properly. If we are going to do anything let us do it right; let us make the men who have gone to the front, and whom we are now asking to go to the front, feel that the State is with them, not only now when the State wants their services, but through the years to come.


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):: Mr. Speaker, while supporting the resolution and everything that has been said by the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Middlebro), and by the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), I won id like to suggest an amplification of tne idea. There are men taken from all walks of life who may suffer accident, wounds, or partial disablement, which will unfit them for the occupations they were formerly engaged in. It is quite possible that in many cases a man who has been engaged in some active, outdoor calling, and who has been disqualified for the pursuit of that calling, may be given a training or education that would fit him for some other calling for which he would be mentally, but not as injured physically fitted, and for which he had not been before educationally equipped. It appears to me that this is the time and the occasion when, if ever, the question of technical education should be taken up in a practical way for this specific purpose. I do not wish to debate now the general question of technical education, but there is no doubt that in existing circumstances many men who have become unfitted for their 'ordinary callings might well be given an opportunity to acquire technical knowledge which would enable them to become useful and selfsupporting citizens.
I am induced to bring this matter to the attention of the House because of a condition which exists in the city in which I reside. That city has established a technical school. It is ,of course, a very expensive establishment both to inaugurate and to carry on successfully, and in the

present financial stress, when it has become necessary to reduce expenditure along many lines, many of the citizens feel that the expenditures necessary to this technical school should, under the circumstances, be postponed until a better day. In all probability this school will have to be closed, or its usefulness will be very much curtailed, for lack of financial support at the moment. I do not wish to make any particular suggestion to the Government in reference to this school, and I merely mention it to say that here is an institution well fitted to do the work which I have suggested. The disabled soldier who might be a suitable person to attend that school and get the benefit of its training will not, as things exist now, be able to do so.


Robert Laird Borden: Does that school provide free technical education?


Frank Oliver: Yes, that is its purpose.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it supported,
as a municipal institution?


Frank Oliver: It is practically a municipal institution; but it is1 not under the control of the city council, it is under the control of the school board. I am only citing this ease as an instance of what could be done; and I believe that what is possible in that case is possible elsewhere throughout the country. Altogether aside from the advantage this education would be to the soldiers themselves, it strikes me that it would be of immense advantage to the country to enable these men to recover their usefulness and productive power. Otherwise, a valuable part of the population would not be useful, productive, creative, or indeed, would not enjoy life with satisfaction to themselves. I thought it might be a good idea to bring this to the attention of the Government.
Might I also suggest that an opportunity be given to the' disabled soldier to enter, not exactly the higher professions, but the school teaching profession, for example. If the disabled soldier, who in his previous career did not have the opportunity of acquiring that degree of education that would fit him for school teaching or some kindred occupation, were given the opportunity of acquiring that broadening of knowledge that wduld enable him to become useful in this line, not only would his condition be better, not only would the country be discharging those obligations that my two hon. friends have already spoken of, but the country at large would be benefited by

the useful endeavours of a number of its valuable citizens, who, left to themselves, and without outside assistance of some kind, would certainly pass the remainder of their lives with a minimum of usefulness to the community, and with very much less satisfaction to themselves.


Mr. J. H. BURNHAM (West Peterborough) :: I should like to remark that I have had some experience in this matter.
In my humble judgment, the suggestions of this kind that are being made from time to time, fall far short of the requirements. From the discussion to-day, it appears that only those who have gone to the front and have returned, are to be dealt with. What are you going to do with those who have offered and have not been accepted? Their effort, so far as it goes, is of immense value to the country, for by their example they are nourishing the spirit of self sacrifice and of defence-something which is most material. Furthermore, apart from the pension, what provision is to be made foT the permanently disabled, and the dependents of those who have been killed? To my mind the various schemes that have been suggested partake largely of the spirit of tutelage or guardianship, and have in them something which is not conducive to the best interests of the soldiers, their wives, and their families. I am well aware that there is a variety .of schemes in other countries, where the old soldier in many cases is treated pretty much as a sort of poor relation-somebody who has to be provided for. To my mind this matter should be dealt with differently, and I would venture to suggest a satisfactory method. The soldier is a man who offers his services in an enterprise of a peculiarly hazardous kind, requiring in him not only physical but moral qualities. You are paying that man accordingly, in the first instance. In the second place, I say you should insure his life. Then, if he dies, the insurance money will enure to the benefit of his family, and can be taken care of by trustees. If he is wounded, he can be taken care of- on the principle of the Workmen's Compensation Act, which provides for every degree of disablement. Under this plan, the old soldier would not be a pensioner upon public bounty, but a man whose business affairs would be on a proper business basis. This would be recognizing soldiering as a calling of the nation at large. It is just the same as any other calling, except that it differs in its
greater danger, and in other qualities of a like kind.
A soldier should be sent forth to war on the understanding that he will be allowed sufficient to properly provide for his family while he is away; and if he dies ui the service of his country he should be assured -not by the promises of the people, which are often written in water, but by a guarantee at the time of his enlistment-that when he enlists his life is insured, and that his future, and the future of his family is also assured. There are some cases arising out of this discussion which are not provided for. For instance, if a man is not fit he cannot be taken into the Civil Ser- [DOT] vice, and that man might have become unfit purely through the extraordinary character of his services to his country- I know a young man from Peterborough who holds the Cross of St. George from the Czar, the Legion of Honour from the French Republic, and the D.C.M. from England. He was shattered by shrapnel, by bullet and by high explosive shell; he was stabbed three times through the groin by a German bayonet; he was left out on the field to die. Even in that extremity, he gave up his stretcher to another man, in that way exemplifying the highest quality that the human race is capable of. He is now gradually degenerating; his mother was sent over to the Old Country to see him, but the young fellow's mind is gradually weakening. Am I, Sir, to understand that such a case is to be provided for in the way proposed in this resolution? This man is incapable of holding a position in the Civil Service, and yet nothing, apparently, can be done for him, unless through the spirit of benevolence of some charitable association, organization, or private individual.
I think, Sir, that this matter ought to be reduced to a thorough business basis, and, outside of that, there is ample room for those nobler qualities, shown in the volunteer and in the people at large, which it is so wholesome for the people to exemplify.


Mr. D. O. ALGUIRE (Stormont):: It
occurs to me that one little thing might be done by us which would indicate our attitude towards this question. In this country there are those who have a certain say as to who shall be appointed to some of the smaller positions that do not come under the Civil Service Act, and I think it would be proper for us to make it clearly understood that those positions should be filled by returned soldiers who were capable of

filling them, and, if there are no returned soldiers available, we should take into consideration those whose boys had volunteered to take their places in the firing line.
One of the most pleasant duties I had in the way of nominating a man and having him appointed to a position in my county, occurred in this way. The case was a rather pathetic one * a woman was mourning the loss of her second boy, word haviiig just been received from France that he had been killed. It so happened that there was a vacancy in the Civil Service, and it was given to one son living at home who was partly crippled, but who was able to do the work required. I refer to this matter only to show the effect it had on every one who heard about it. People said that a very good effect was produced in Stormont by the fact that the position was given to the surviving son of this poor widow, whose other two sons had been killed. In any event, we should take into consideration the families of those who are fighting, and as far as possible appointments to positions in the Civil Service should be maue from the relatives of those who are serving us at the frpnt.


Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I have no objection whatever to the present resolution, that soldiers returning from the front, especially those who have been wounded, be given appointments in the Civil Service. But I would request the Government to see to it that the appointments go to deserving individuals, who not only will have the credit of having taken part in the war, but who, at the same time, will be trustworthy, and not to men of the stamp of those who have pillaged the House of Commons during the tragic conflagration of a few days past.
On that occasion certain individuals were about, who, far from deserving of their country, were unworthy of the military uniform they wore. They were more intent on barring the way to those who wanted to give aid and might have helped to save some lives than on fulfilling their duty.
An inspection of the ruins will disclose signs of plundering worthy of bandits.
I fully concur in the motion of the horn, member, provided a judicious selection is made; I mean that only those secure appointments who can be in every way recommended. Whoever offers his life on 'the battlefield-especially if he be wounded, de-	'
serves, on his return, the best consideration of, the Government.
With those few remarks I take pleasure in seconding the motion of the hon. member.	.


Robert Laird Borden: in military service. I believe-I am not sure of this, but I state it as my belief, and I will verify it later-that every province in Canada to-day is prepared to give preference in its Civil Service to the men who have been disabled at the front, provided, of course, that they are capable of performing the duties of the offices to which it is proposed to appoint them. It is with a great deal of appreciation that I speak ol the spirit displayed by every Provincial Government in this regard, and of the cooperation they have given. If I am not mistaken, the co-operation of the Provincial Governments extends, in some provinces at least, to an endeavour to have the like policy carried on in the municipalities of the province. If that is not the case in all, I hope it soon will be.
I am very glad indeed that this discussion has taken place. In order that I may consider the terms of my hon. friend's motion, as compared with the 1 Order in Council which we have brought down, and in order also that the Government may take into consideration the wider scope which the hon. gentleman has given to the subject, I move that the debate be adjourned, to be resumed at some future day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I wish to inform the House that I have received the following cablegram:
Barbados, February 9, 1916. Speaker, House of Commons,
Dominion of Canada, Ottawa.
The Speaker and other members of House of Assembly, Barbados, desire to express the sorrow they have felt concerning the terrible disaster that occurred on night of third instant involving the loss of human lives and destruction of Parliament Buildings at Ottawa, and to offer their deepest sympathy to the House of Commons of the Dominion of Canada on the sad , occasion. If this disaster shall eventually be proved to have been the work of one or more of the King's enemies, then the House wishes further to express the horror and indignation which will properly be felt by all loyal subjects of the Empire.
Speaker, House of Assembly,
Barbados.


WAR SUPPLIES-HORSES.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J.	J.	HU GHES: I wish to
call the attention of the Prime Minister and the House to the fact that the answers given to some of the questions are imac-TSir Robert Borden.]
curate and, I think, untruthful-apparently intentionally so. I refer particularly to a question which I put on the Order Paper some time ago and which was answered on Thursday last. One question was:
Were the horses purchased in Prince Edward Island found to be suitable and satisfactory?
That is, for army purposes. The answer to that question was, "Yes." I expected that answer, because it is correct. I have not seen the report of the Davidson Commission; I do not think it has yet been issued; but I Temember reading in the newspapers the statement that the Davidson Commission found that the horses purchased in Prince Edward Island were suitable for army purposes. They commended the man who purchased them, saying that he had done his work honestly and well. Another question was:
Were the horses purchased in the other provinces of Canada found to be suitable and satisfactory?
The answer was the same: " Yes." Now, I am quite satisfied that that answer is not correct; every member of this House knows that it is not correct. I have only to say this: if that answer is correct, the hon. gentleman who formerly represented the county of Kings, N.S., in this House, Mr. De Witt Foster, ought still to be here.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I regret to
have to call the hon. gentleman to order. It is open to him not to accept the answer given by the Government to a question, but it is not open to him .to discuss that answer, and I would ask him not to do so.


James Joseph Hughes: In what way, then, can
I bring the matter to the attention of the Government? The question is a very important one.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. member can discuss it upon the motion for Committee of Supply, or when the Estimates come up.


James Joseph Hughes: That will be a long time.


Robert Laird Borden: I hope not. In the meantime I can only say that I will direct the attention of the Minister of Militia and Defence to my hon. friend's observation and let him know that he intends to discuss it later. Finally, I express my satisfaction that the hon. gentleman was so well supplied with the information he sought that he really need not have asked the question at all.


James Joseph Hughes: I want to call the attention of the Government to another, part of the question to which I have referred. May I just remark, in reply to the Prime Minister, that one reason why I asked a question in respect of which I did know what the answer should be was that I desired to know what confidence I could place in answers given to questions with regard to which I was not so well informed.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must ask
that the hon. gentleman desist; he is clearly out of order.


James Joseph Hughes: I want to discuss another part of the question.


Robert Laird Borden: If my hon.
friend will send me a memorandum of the other matter to which he refers, I will bring it to the attention of the Minister of Militia and Defence.
EMBARGO UPON OATS AND OATMEAL. On the Orders of the Day:


Frank Oliver: It has been reported in the papers that an embargo has been placed upon the exportation of oatmeal from Alberta to the United States. I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if there is any foundation for the report; and also whether any embargo lias been placed upon oats.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I think I can tell my hon. friend that no embargo has been placed upon the exportation of oats. If any embargo has been placed on oatmeal, it is a general embargo, not particularly applicable to any one province. I am not certain about that, however; I will give my hon. friend the information at the next sitting. I may add that there is no embargo upon the exportation of oatmeal to the United States; there is a general embargo in respect of its exportation to certain countries.



[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Thomas White for Committee of Supply:
James Joseph Hughes: I wish to take advantage of this opportunity to bring to the attention of the Minister of Militia and of the Government the matter to which I referred a few moments ago. I was saying that if it be true that the horses purchased in the other provinces of Canada were suitable and satisfactory, Mr. DeWitt Foster should still be in this House. 1 
say that the answer "Yes" to the question which I asked in that respect is not correct. More than that, the newspaper reports of the evidence heard before the Davidson Commission, if they may he relied upon, prove that that answer is incorrect.
I asked what commission was paid to the men who purchased the horses in Prince Edward Island, and the answer was that no commission was paid to them. I am pretty sure that is not correct. If I may rely upon the newspaper reports of the evidence before the Davidson Commission, some remuneration or commission was paid, and very properly so. The amount was a reasonable one, and the work was well done; the horses were suitable, and everything was proper. Therefore it seems clear that the formal answer given by the minister was not correct. There is a principle behind this. Members of this House have a right to ask questions in regard to public matters; the people of Canada have a right to information of that kind obtained through their representatives, and the duty of the Government to give correct answers to such questions cannot be disputed. Pains should be taken to see that every answer given in this House is correct. In this respect we have some complaint against the Militia Department. It may be that the department, being a military department, think they should not take so much notice of civil matters; or it may be that, the minister considers that everything he does ought to go without question;, but in any case we have some ground for complaint, and I am sure the Prime Minister will see that this grievance is remedied. I would ask him to tell me whether I should ask this question again or whether he will see that a correct answer is given without my again placing it on the Order Paper.


Robert Laird Borden: Really I think I should not care to tender any advice to my hon. friend as to the course he had better take; he is fully capable of coming to his own conclusion in regard to that. All I can promise is to direct the attention of his namesake, the Minister of Militia, to the subject, and I presume the minister will have some explanation or some observations to make in reply to my hon. friend.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Charges of management-offices of assistant receivers general and country savings banks salaries, $66,850; contingencies,$6,000.
["I will make\ninquiry and give the information to my hon. friend. The Printing Department has had a great deal of extra work in connection with the war.\nProgress reported.\nAt six o'clock the House adjourned, without motion put, pursuant to rule.\nThursday, February 10, 1916."]
Sir THOMAS WHITE:: As the hon.
junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) is not present, perhaps it would be better not to go on with my estimates.


John Howard Sinclair: We might allow an item to stand.
Commission for payment of interest on public debt, purchase of sinking funds, $80,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the explanation
of the increase of $20,000?


William Thomas White: That is on account of the growing public debt, owing to the war borrowings. The department thought it wise to insert this estimate of $20,000 additional on the assumption that that amount would cover all possible contingencies.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister object to allowing that to stand until Mr. Maclean is here?


William Thomas White: That was my
suggestion, to allow these items to stand. Item stands.
Removal of foreign and uncurrent coin from circulation, $15,000.


John Howard Sinclair: I presume that this is for the removal of American coin from circulation in Canada. Has the minister ever approached the United States Government with a view to having them grant similar accommodation to our coin in the United States? In Boston, for instance, Dominion notes or Dominion silver coins do not pass as current coin. Would it not be reasonable to ask them to give to our money the same accommodation as we give to theirs? That would be to their advantage, as we are their best customers, and I feel sure there is a disposition in the United States to promote intercourse with Canada.


William Thomas White: The matter has not been taken up with the Government of the United States,' nor do I think it desirable that it should be. The coin of neither country has any legal status in the other. The coin of the United States is not legal tender in Canada, nor is the coin of Canada legal tender in the United States. Along the border, and I think generally in Canada, American coins are taken at their face value. Under the arrangement referred to in this item, American coinage is taken up by the banks, to whom the Government pay a commission, and sent out of the country. It is to the advantage of Canada to have its own coinage in circulation in Canada, as there is an increase 
of Government currency to that extent. If the silver currency of Canada were replaced in whole or in substantial part by silver currency of the United States, to that extent Dominion currency would not be in circulation, and there would be a loss to the Government. Therefore, under the late Government, an arrangement was made by my predecessor, Hon. Mr. Fielding, whereby, in consideration of the payment of a small commission, the banks undertook to transport to the United States American silver and other coins, with the idea of getting rid of this foreign circulation. It is a fact that our coins do not circulate generally in the United States. I believe that in the American border cities our coins are accepted. I do not think it would be a proper subject on which to approach the Government of the United States. It would be for them to deal with the matter, if they see fit, as the Canadian Government has seen fit to deal with it. I should doubt very much whether they would meet any wish we might express to them in the matter. I think it better to leave the question to be dealt with according to the discretion of the Canadian Government on the one hand and of the American Government on the other, without any request on the part of either Government. To put forward a request and have it refused might be somewhat invidious. My own view is that, as trade increases between the two countries, probably our coins will be more and more acceptable across the line; and the Americans may in time adopt a similar plan to ours to get our coins out of their country. As we take the attitude that it is not in the interest of Canada to have American coins circulate in our country, I do not think the United States Government would take the attitude that the amount of Canadian coinage current in the United States should be increased. They would probably take the same view as was taken by my predecessor, namely, that it is advisable that Canadian coinage should find its way out of the United States, in order that the United States Government might have the advantage of the circulation of American coinage there.


Frank Oliver: Is this $15,000 a fair payment for the services rendered?


William Thomas White: That is the
amount paid out, according to this statement, on the commission basis, and, of course, no more is paid out than is required under that arrangement.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it confined to American silver, nickel and copper coinage?


William Thomas White: I think so.
Governor General's Secretary's office; salaries, $25,600.


Mr. GRAHAM:: There is an increase there.


John Dowsley Reid: Only the statutory increases, which come automatically.
Department of Public Printing and Stationery-salaries, including Mr, Fred. Cook, assistant King's Printer and Controller of Stationery, at $4,000, $70,662.50


John Howard Sinclair: Does that include the printing of the electoral lists of the past year?


George Eulas Foster: This is simply for officers under the head of Civil Government; printing is a separate item.
Department of the Interior-salaries, $1,171,655 ; contingencies, $120,000.


Mr. ROCHE:: The number of officials is the -same.


Frank Oliver: While the vote and the number of officials are the same as last year, merely with the statutory increases, I think that the minister will' admit that in view of the falling off of the business of the department that has occurred, there might have been occasion found of permitting the staff at any rate to decrease, as it must necessarily decrease, from natural causes. I would not suggest dismissal, but it seems to me that the circumstances of the past year or two have been such that the head office staff might have been allowed to decrease rather than to keep up to the former standard.


William Roche: I do not see how we could very well do that. A great many of the officials of the inside service in the Department of the Interior have enlisted and gone to the front. Some of these positions we have not filled but at the same time the salaries of these officials go on. I do not see how it would be possible to reduce the staff.


Frank Oliver: The explanation of the minister is that the number of officials actually rendering service in the department has been decreased by enlistment.


William Roche: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Is that common to all
the other departments? Do the officials who have gone on active service retain their salaries?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, that is the rule.


John Howard Sinclair: Is that to continue?


John Dowsley Reid: That applies to all those who enlisted up to the 1st November.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Is the minister sure
that is the rule?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


William Pugsley: I have been told that in the case of some individuals who have offered to enlist the information given to them is that they will have to relinquish their salaries while they are serving.


John Douglas Hazen: That was the rule up to
the 1st November.


William Pugsley: What is the rule now?


John Douglas Hazen: An individual can only
enlist with the permission of the head of the department, who decides whether his services can be dispensed with. If his services can be dispensed with and he enlists he will be paid an amount equal to the difference between his military pay and the .pay he was receiving in the department, so that he will get the full amount of the pay he was receiving in the department.


George Perry Graham: Suppose his military pay is greater?


John Douglas Hazen: Then the department does not pay him anything.


William Pugsley: How is it in regard to
many thousands of young men who are engaged in the outside service, and who, to all intents and purposes, are permanent employees? Are they to be treated in the same way?


George Eulas Foster: The same rule prevails.


William Pugsley: Is my hon. friend sure of that?


George Eulas Foster: It does in my department.


John Dowsley Reid: It does in the Department of Customs.


William Pugsley: I know a young man
who has been informed that if he enlists his salary will absolutely stop.


George Eulas Foster: Well, this will take place, as it has taken place in one case in my own department. There must be some authority in the department itself who will judge as to whether it is possible

to dispense with the services of a civil servant or not, and if the civil servant is an indispensable one, as in many cases toe is, he does not then get the consent of the minister. In that case, not having the consent, if he enlists he does not get the same treatment.


William Pugsley: Then am I right in saying that instead of their pay being allowed to go- on they receive a portion of their pay sufficient to make what they get equal to their former salary, and that the same rule now prevails in regard to the outside and the inside service?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Mr. COPP:: I understood the hon. Minister of Marine And Fisheries to say that the new arrangement was made on the 1st November. Was it the first of last November?


John Douglas Hazen: The first of last November.


Frank Oliver: Would the Minister of the Interior be good enough at some later date to lay on the table a list of the employees of the Department of the Interior, inside service, who have transferred to the overseas force, with the ranks they hold, the different units they belong to, and the positions they hold in the department?


William Roche: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I would like to say a word about the enlistment of civil servants. I know of a few cases, not very many, where the head of the department has not seen his way clear to grant' certain officials permission to enlist. Like others who have applied to enlist, and who, for various reasons, have been rejected, these men are labouring under a little disability among their fellows, who think that they have not shown any intention of enlisting. I know some who have not made application for enlistment because they have been informed by the head of the department that they were believed to be indispensable. If some method could be adopted, either through their association or otherwise, of letting it be known that these gentlemen had offered their services and that they had not been allowed to enlist, it would relieve them from the effects of the feeling on the part of some of their fellows that they had not offered to enlist.


George Eulas Foster: In my own
department there are two cases of that kind. My private secretary was very anxious to enlist and go to the front. To me he was indispensable, and I thought I was doing

some service to the country in carrying on the business that fell to my department. I therefore tried to persuade him that he was doing just as good service in remaining and assisting me as he would be doing if he went to the front. I offered to give him a letter to that effect, and I have made it public as far as it was necessary to do so. Another case of the same kind took place, and I offered to give this young man a letter which he could show to his friends. There has been some talk of having an armlet or some kind of distinctive badge to show that a man had offered his services, even if they had not been accepted. But I do not think any general application has been made for that idea to be put in practice in Canada. It is done in Britain, however.


George Perry Graham: A young man who has
offered to enlist and been rejected on account of being physically unfit would hesitate to wear a badge of that kind.
I suppose we shall have an opportunity of discussing the question of immigration. In regard to passengers crossing from the United States into Canada, the department has adopted a plan which is very convenient to the passenger, but which strikes me as not being quite efficient under the present conditions. For instance, a passenger from New York to Montreal or Ottawa is given a blank to fill in before he retires, so that the immigration officer will not have to rouse him out for inspection. That is a convenience to the passenger, and under ordinary circumstances, it would be sufficient protection; but at the present time, when it is very important that a great deal of care should be exercised with regard to those who are crossing the border, it seems to me that the present system is hardly adequate. I have often heard passengers on the train say, " I do not know how to fill this out," and get somebody else to fill it out for them, and then they would sign it. That might be all right in some cases, but in. another case it might allow an undesirable to get across the border. He could get some other person to fill out the blank, and could.go to his berth, and would not be aroused during the night. Does it not strike my hon. friend that at this particular time, when it is so important that undesirables should not be allowed to cross the border, even passengers might be inconvenienced for the sake of a stricter inspection. 1 think the present system allows an undesirable to get across the line if he has sufficient ingenuity.


William Roche: I did not expect a question of this kind would come up on Civil Government Estimates. I may say that complaints have been made to me that the travelling public are put to a great deal of inconvenience by the officers requiring them to answer these questions.. Some hon. members of this House have objected strenuously to filling in these blanks, and have urged that the regulations be relaxed, as they were a source of great annoyance. I am convinced that our boundary inspection is much more rigid than it was prior to the outbreak of war. However, I will bring before the Superintendent of Immigration the point raised by my hon. friend, and see whether we can in any way *meet his wishes.


George Perry Graham: I know the present
system is a great convenience to the passenger. Sometimes, however, I myself have wondered why I should fill in the blanks, as no doubt have other hon. members. But there is ho difficulty in filling them out so faT as I am concerned, except that I invariably omit my age, which I suppose I should not do. In one or two oases I have had my own suspicions of people crossing the border so easily on the train. They simply filled in the blanks and retired, either to the drawing room or a lower berth, and were not disturbed at all. I think the present system leaves an opening for an undesirable to get in.


William Roche: Most of the undesirables do not travel in that style. ,


George Perry Graham: The dangerous kind
travels in style.


William Thomas White: I have Had my attention directed on more than one occasion to the matter referred to by my hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham). Usually it has been in terms of most outspoken complaint of the inconvenience occasioned to people of Canadian birth and residence by having to fill in these slips supplied by the Immigration Department. It seems to me that it is more or less a formal matter, and serves no useful purpose. I have heard complaints of this system by numerous people. Furthermore, most- men fill in these blanks in the most casual fashion, very often omitting to answer some of the questions, and treats ing the whole thing lightly, if not as a joke. If any undesirable wished to gain access to Canada I do not think these slips would interpose any formidable obstacle,
because the undesirable would fill in the blanks just as a great number of Canadians fill them in to-day, namely, in any such fashion as occurs to them. I do not look on these slips, therefore, as a safeguard against undesirable immigration. As far as I myself am concerned, they are an unmitigated nuisance, and I know I am expressing the opinion of the great majority of the travelling public in Canada when I say that. It may be that these slips serve some useful statistical purpose, and that compilations are made from these returns. But they do, undoubtedly, cause the people of this country a very great deal of trouble, and are looked upon as more or less of a farce by the railway companies who give them to the travelling public for the purpose of having them filled in. I do not desire to object to the system, because when a system is in force I suppose it serves some useful purpose, but I do not think it is in the public interest that any greater trouble should be given to the travelling public.


John Howard Sinclair: It would seem that stricter regulations are required at the present time. No doubt it is important to keep track of the people who come across the border. I notice by this morning's . papers that some fifty writs have been issued in the caise of San Francisco people who had plotted to come across the Canadian border and blow up bridges and tunnels, and commit other depredations. If the present system is not efficient I think the Minister of the Interior should take some steps to improve it.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police: salaries and contingencies, $22,350.


George Eulas Foster: The increase is due to statutory increases only; the number of employees is the same.


Frank Oliver: Who is the Comptroller
now?


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Fortescue.
Office of the Auditor General: salaries and contingencies, $150,650.


George Eulas Foster: There is a decrease here.


George Perry Graham: I have often thought
that in regard to the Auditor General we are perhaps not sufficiently generous. In saying this I am speaking entirely on my own responsibility, as I have never in my life had a word about the matter with this gentleman. The position of the Auditor



General is somewhat different from that of any other official in the employment of the Government; he is subject to Parliament, and, as I understand, he receives the salary provided by statute for a deputy minister. I am not saying that his work is more arduous than that of a deputy minister, but his responsibility is perhaps greater than that of any other official of the country. At present he does not get as large a salary as some of the deputy ministers, who receive additions to their .salaries through some other employment or in some other way. If we are to get the best man for this responsible position, we ought, to make the salary a little higher than that which appertains to a deputy minister, or a least as high as the salary received at present by any deputy minister. I have thought of this matter a great many times, but this is the first opportunity I have had of presenting it when this estimate has come up. If any man ought to be well paid for the able and conscientious manner in which he performs his duties, that man is the Auditor General, and Parliament ought to give him a higher salary than the salary which he has received heretofore and which, I believe, is $5,000, the salary given to a deputy minister.


William Thomas White: fractions of an ounce, and I was able t say that in the handling of that gold there was a variation of the most fractional character, In other words, it was done with as great skilly as could have been exercised in connection with such work.
Let me mention another thing. In addition to the routine work, which has been heavy, and the responsibility which has devolved especially since the outbreak ot the war in connection with matters of finance, we have floated, as the House knows, a loan of $50,000,000 which was afterwards increased to $100,000,000.
The securities were in denominations of $100, $500 and $1,000. There were some 25,000 individual subscribers. And, notwithstanding that we made use of the services of some 3,000 branch banks of Canada, an account had to be kept in my department with each subscriber and of the bonds by number. I had some experience in connection with flotations when I was in business life, and I had then as good a staff, I think, as any man in Canada-I always stand by my staff. Yet I do not believe that any financial institution in the Dominion, no matter how great, could have handled that loan any better, in fact I do not think they could have handled it as well, as it was handled by the staff of the Finance Department. I am not paying any compliment to myself because I, as minister, simply supervised the issue in a general way; the compliment I am paying is to the staff, and I speak in appreciation of their work in connection with that loan as well as of the energy and the high sense of duty they displayed in the heavy work and responsibility which devolved upon them. I think it only due to the staff and to those in charge of the several branches that I should make this statement. And I have no doubt that ministers in charge of other departments could say the same thing. It is well known that the officials engaged in the Militia Department-to take that as an example-have worked literally night and day, Sunday and Saturday, since the outbreak of this war. Very heavy duties have been thrown upon these men, and very heavy responsibilities as well. If we were dealing with this matter on a business basis, or even on a basis of common fairness, I think the Government might well consider later on whether it would not be proper, just, and fair, that some remuneration should be made to these men who have put forth such efforts, and who have so untiringly devoted themselves
42i
to their duties since the outbreak of the war. The same thing, I am sure, can be said of other departments. It is not necessary to enlarge upon this further, the point is, that men in charge of many departments of Government have heavy duties and responsibilities. And, in my opinion, they are not overpaid-many of them, I am satisfied, are underpaid. But we are at war. Men are giving up their civil occupations and are going to the front, making great sacrifices for the common cause. Therefore, notwithstanding the undoubted fact that men' in many departments of the public service are underpaid for the services which they have performed since the outbreak of the war, it is not regarded as expedient that salaries should be raised at this particular [DOT] time. I agree with my hon. friend from' South Eenfrew (Mr. Graham) that the man placed in the high and responsible position of Auditor General should be paid a proper salary. All our salaries in the higher grades of the service are on the basis of a situation that existed many years ago. Some day the situation will have to be revised. I certainly do not depreciate in any way the work of the Auditor General or the responsibilities of his position, but I think it only fair to the heads of some branches that I should put in a word with a view to informing the House of the work they are doing, and of the fact that, in my opinion at least, they are not overpaid.


Mr. TUEEIFF:: On what ground is the Deputy Minister of Justice paid $10,000 a year, when many other deputy ministers are paid only $5,000?


John Douglas Hazen: When the salary of the Deputy Minister of Justice was increased, it was provided that, in consideration oi that increase, he should argue cases on behalf of the Crown before the Privy Council and the Supreme Court of Canada, for which service counsel had been retained up to that time. The result is that, although there is an increase in the salary of the Deputy Minister of Justice, there is a saving to the country of thousands of dollars formerly paid to counsel whose services are now performed by the deputy minister.


John Gillanders Turriff: But while the Deputy Minister of Justice is in the Old Country, attending the Privy Council, or at the Supreme Court here, the work of the department goes on, and it must be done by somebody else. I understand that the Deputy Minister of Justice has the

privilege of taking outside cases-or had, up to a year or two ago.


John Douglas Hazen: Up to the time of this
increase.


John Gillanders Turriff: He does not do that now?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


John Gillanders Turriff: Such instances as this
have been the cause of dissatisfaction in the Civil Service for years past. It i3 an invidious treatment of some deputy ministers as compared with others, for some deputy ministers, for some little reason or other, are paid more than the ordinary salary of a deputy minister. I am not complaining of this Government more than of their predecessors in. this matter, for the same practice has been followed for years. Hut it seems to me to be wrong. There should be a fixed salary for deputy ministers, and all snould be paid the same amount. If the excuse oe made that some are not as able men as others, the answer is that such men should not be in such positions. The present state of affairs is not satisfactory, and as long as it continues it will be a cause of irritation in the service.


John Howard Sinclair: Reference has been
made to the war loan floated by the Minister of Finance. If I am in order I should like to ask whether the minister lias considered providing means whereby duplicates can be given to people who lose their bonds by fire or accident. I have heard of two cases, and I have no doubt there will be many others, for these bonds are scattered all over Canada, and many of them are held by people who do not have safes in which to keep them.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend is probably aware that in this issue, as in many others, there are two kinds of securities. There is, first, the bearer bond with coupons. This is what is called a negotiable security. It passes from hand to hand and the party who holds it, in ordinary course, has a good title though some of his predecessors in title may have found the bond or even stolen it. It is payable to bearer, both as to principal and as to interest. It is usual to provide that bearer bonds may be registered as to principal. That is, the name of the owner may be written upon the back of the bond, and in such case no one can deal with the principal of the bond except the person whose name is so written. But the coupons in such a case are not less negotiable than

before. So, in the case of the ordinary registered bonds, the principal can be dealt with only by the registered owner, while the coupons pass from hand to hand as if the bonds had not been registered. A record is kept in the department of registered bonds, showing the owner of each bond. When the owner desires to transfer his title to another, he does it by power of attorney, in which case either the name of the new owner is entered upon the back of the bond, or the bond is made payable to bearer. In the latter case its complete negotiability is restored.
There is another kind of bond, which forms a considerable p-rfrt of the recent domestic war loan. These bonds are registered both as to principal and to interest; they are registered bonds without coupons. In other words, the name of the owner appears upon the bond and in the -books of the Finance Department. If the owner of a registered bond loses this bond, he -can readily get -a new one from the Finance Department. Nobody else could make use of lost bonds of this kind if he found them or stole them, because, as I have said, they are registered both as to principal and to interest. In the case of the former bond, if it were lost and a diligent search failed to disclose its whereabouts, the owner would be required to file a bond by -a reliable indemnity or guarantee company guaranteeing the Government against any loss through the issue of a new bond. Upon a satisfactory bond of indemnity or guarantee being filed with the department, setting forth the facts with respect to the loss of the bond and guaranteeing the Government against its turning up in the hands of some innocent person who would acquire a good title, this new bond issues.


John Howard Sinclair: Does my hon. friend say it is a matter of law that a stolen bond gives title to the thief?


William Thomas White: Not to the thief. I say that a bearer bond has the quality of negotiability, under decisions. I can refer my hon. friend to some decisions; he will find them in Palmer's Company Law. In that work two or three leading oases are cited, in which it was decided that the character of negotiability attached to a bond payable to bearer.


John Howard Sinclair: I refer to stolen bonds.


William Thomas White: I will come to that in a -moment. The quality of negotia-

bility means this: That a man who has a bearer bond, which he has acquired in good faith-even from a party who has acquired it not in good faith-takes title. Suppose the holder of a bearer bond has it stolen from him; there is no question that the thief has not good title to that bond. But if the thief goes on the open market and sells, that bond, which may be a listed bond, to A, B or C, who take it *v ithout knowledge of the fact that it has 'been stolen, then A, B or C take good title to that bond, because it has the character of negotiability to which I have referred.


George Perry Graham: Has a member of Parliament the right to purchase any of these bonds?


George Eulas Foster: Has he the
money?
Mr. GRAHA'M: Speaking for some of us, no; but has a member of Parliament, under the Independence of Parliament Act, the right to buy these bonds? ,


Robert Laird Borden: Just the same, I think, as he has the right to buy a ticket on the Intercolonial railway.


George Perry Graham: It was my view that there was nothing to prevent bis purchasing them, though I was talking the other day to a gentleman, who entertained quite the opposite view. I think it is well that the Prime Minister is assured on that point.


Robert Laird Borden: That is my impression.
Civil Government-Department of Finance and Treasury Board, salaries, $138,125.


John Gillanders Turriff: Will the minister explain the large increase?


William Thomas White: There is an increase of five assistants in subdivision B of the second division. I have mentioned the loan, and the additional duties which have devolved upon the department; the appointments which have been made during the past year have been absolutely necessary in order to carry on the work of the department.
Department of Customs-salaries, $328,307.50.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the Department of Customs stopped dismissing officials? Is there any record of dismissals during the last year?


John Dowsley Reid: We stopped that long ago.


Mr. MARCIL:: What is the reason for
the increase?


John Dowsley Reid: The increases are the ordinary statutory increases required by law.
Department of Inland Revenue-salaries, $163,450.


Charles Marcil: This is a very large increase here.


Hon. E. L. PATENAUDE:: There is no
increase except the statutory increases and the addition of a few clerks on account of the increase in the regular work of the department. We brought one very valuable officer from Montreal to Ottawa in order to avoid travelling expenses, and we have had to add three clerks owing to the increase of the work. Then we find that we require seventeen analysts instead of nine. That is also on account of the increase in work.


John Gillanders Turriff: WThat is the revenue oi the department as compared with the last few years?


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: I cannot give the
exact figures, but I understand it has increased during the last year or the present fiscal year.	[DOT]


John Gillanders Turriff: The revenue is not as
great as it was some years ago. Here we have an increase of $20,000. That seems to call for very definite explanation.


Robert Laird Borden: That could be
given on the ordinary estimates. My hon. friend has perhaps overlooked the fact that the administration of the war taxes in respect of stamps, etc., devolves upon the Department of Inland Revenue and some additions to the staff were necessary on (hat account.


Charles Marcil: Were all of these appointments made according to the Civil Service Act, or was that Act ignored?


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: These appointments
were made under the Civil Service Act. There are very few temporary employees in the inside service.


George Perry Graham: Would the minister lay on the Table the names and salaries of the new employees?


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: Yes.
Department of Agriculture-salaries, $467,612.50; contingencies, $100,000.


John Douglas Hazen: In' the absence of the
Minister of Agriculture, who we all regret is unable to be in the House and will

be unable for some little time, I have been asked to make this statement with regard to the Civil Government Estimates of that department:
So far as Deputy Minister,. 1st division, subdivision A, 1st division, subdivision B, and 2nd division, subdivision A, are concerned, the items remain as in last years's estimates, with the addition of the usual statutory increases.
Second division, subdivision B.-An increase of five clerkships to provide for probable apj-pointments made necessary by the constant expansion of the purely agricultural work of the department. Such appointments are, as a rule, made in this subdivision. It may also become necessary to appoint additional patent examiners who are now temporarily employed under the War Measures Act in the place of those who have gone overseas.
Third division, subdivision A.-Same as last year's estimates.
Third division, subdivision B.-An increase of twelve clerkships to >
provide for permanent clerks, mostly stenographers and typists, in lieu of temporary clerks now employed.
Messengers and packers..-Four vacancies to provide 'for permanent appointments in lieu of temporary lower grade men now employed.
Allowance for private secretary.-Same as last year's estimates.
Contingencies.-Same as last year's estimates
Department of Marine and Fisheries-salaries (including Captain L. A. Demers at $3,300), $217,000 ; contingencies, $49,000.


John Douglas Hazen: There are only two alterations in the Civil Government estimates for the Marine Department. ' There is one extra official in the first division of subdivision A, Captain L. A. Demers, Wreck Commissioner, transferred from the outside to the inside service at the same salary he is receiving in the outside service, $3,300. This year there are eight messengers instead of nine, as provided for last year. An error seems to have been made in the printing of the Civil Government contingencies estimate. It was my intention to have that reduced by $3,000. I would therefore move that the item of stationery and printing be 5 p.m. placed at $13,000 instead of $16,000.


John Howard Sinclair: $25,000 seems a very large item for sundries.


John Douglas Hazen: I have not the figures here, but will give them on the Main Estimates. It is the amount that has been voted each year for sundries in the department.
Item, as amended, agreed to.
Department of Naval Service-salaries, $176,050 ; contingencies, $50,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The total number of clerks provided for in the fiscal year 1916-17 is 126, an increase of one over the fiscal

year 1915-16. The total amount is $176,050, an increase of $5,450. These estimates do not provide for any new appointments or promotions. They show an increase of one clerk in subdivision A of the third division, which is to provide for the salary of a translator who was transferred from the Marine Department, and who should have been included in last year's estimates. The estimate provides for the usual annual increases authorized by statute, and there are no new appointments or promotions. The item for contingencies is the same as last year, and covers all office expenses, travelling expenses, stationery, telegrams, and the services of any temporary clerks required.


George Perry Graham: Is there any suggestion that this department should be abolished?


John Douglas Hazen: Not at the present time.
Department of Railways and Canals-salaries (including chief engineer at $5,000),	$175,-
712.50 ; contingencies, $28,000.


George Perry Graham: Who is the chief engineer?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. W. A. Bowden.


George Perry Graham: All through these estimates of Civil Government we find a certain amount including a stated name. I can understand the estimates being worded in this way if the idea is to get over the Civil Service Act and name some person in these estimates, which, when passed, become a statute; but why Mr. Bowden, who is an old official of the department, should thus be singled out and named 1 do not understand.


John Dowsley Reid: At page 23 my hon. friend will see it simply says chief engineer.


George Perry Graham: The Minister of Marine brought in the wreck commissioner from the outside service to the inside service, so I can understand it being done in that case.


George Eulas Foster: I think it is only a matter of wording; I do not see why it should be there at all.


George Perry Graham: Mr. Bowden has been
chief engineer of the Railway Department for years. He is a prominent official and has been for a good many years, and is a very'able man. Unless there is some special reason for doing it I think it is quite out of place to insert the words "chief engineer" in this estimate.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree with the horn, gentleman that, unless there is some good reason, it should not be mentioned, but I take it for granted that this is the same wording that has been followed for a number of years. As the hon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) is busy in his office this after oon, I wi'l later let the hon. member know when his estimates will come up. 1 remember that for some years there was an item in the estimates with the wording "Deputy Minister and Chief Engineer."


George Perry Graham: That was different.


John Dowsley Reid: I admit that, but the deputy minister's salary was in the inside service. Whether the chief engineer comes within the inside service or not I do not know, but perhaps it is because of some statutory provision that he is mentioned in the item.


George Perry Graham: You do not say, in the vote of the Public Works Department, "including the chief architect," or "including the chief engineer." The reason for the wording of this item, no doubt, is that some few years ago Mr. Butler occupied the dual position of deputy minister and chief engineer, and, in order to make it plain that he was occupying that dual position for which he got more 'than a deputy's salary, it was mentioned in the vote.


George Eulas Foster: This is probably a survival.


George Perry Graham: It may be, but it ought to be corrected, because the chief engineer is a permanent employee of the department.	.
Department of Public Works-salaries, $579,510 ; contingencies, $85,000.


John Dowsley Reid: My hon. Mend the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) asked me to say to the committee that the increase of $9,675 is caused by statutory increases only.


Charles Marcil: I would like a statement of the promotions which have been made in the department in the various classes during the year.


John Dowsley Reid: It will be brought down.
Mr. MARCH.: I have been informed that good officials have been overlooked and that newcomers have been promoted very rapidly. I think that information should be given to the House.


George Perry Graham: It may not he out of
place to say a word in commendation of what the staff of the Public Works Department have done during the past few days. This is a very busy department anyway, and the activity and ability which they have displayed in establishing us in this new home with conveniences such as we have at the present time is very creditable to the officers of the department. We cannot do less than show that we appreciate the work they have done in such a few hours.


Charles Marcil: I have no doubt that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) read last night the interview given by Senator Edwards to one of ' the papers as to the present condition of the old Parliament Buildings. He has expressed the opinion, and this has been confirmed by those who have visited the ruins, that the Government will find that the damage done is less than was expected.
I hope that further consideration will be given to the subject, and that inquiry will be made as to whether it will be possible to utilize the old building.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon- friend the Minister of Public Works, after consultation with his colleagues, has appointed two capable architects to make an examination of the walls and to report as to the possibility of their being utilized. Even if they should be utilized, I think there is a great deal of question as to whether the new building should be made to conform in several respects to the plan of the old building. It seemed to me that it could be greatly improved. At all events, when the report of the architects has been received, the Minister of Public Works will make a statement to the House in order that the discussion suggested by my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition may take place, and that the Government may have the advantage of the views of hon. members in regard to the course that .should be adopted.


George Perry Graham: Would the Prime Minister have any objection to saying who the two architects are?


Robert Laird Borden: Air. Pearson of Toronto and Mr. Marchand of Montreal, together with the staff of the Public Works Department.
Post Office Department-salaries, $819,570; contingencies, $125,000.
Air, CASGRAIN: There is no increase ia

the number of employees. The increase of $11,660 is to provide for statutory increases.


George Perry Graham: This vote is for the inside service only?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I have heard that the
outside service has been greatly increased in spots.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We will cross that
bridge when we come to it.
Department of Trade and Commerce-salaries, $122,312.50 ; contingencies, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: I have made an arrangement with reference to- the two branches of this department, and the result is that we provide more help at a little decrease in the total amount. In the Department of Trade and Commerce proper there is a decrease of one officer, and in the Census and Statistics Branch there is an increase of three. The total increase in the number of employees is two, but the amount required for payment is a little less than it was last year. The increase in the Census and Statistics Branch is due to the making permanent of a number of officials who have been employed on the tabulation work of the last census. We have made them permanent so that we might avail ourselves of their experience and previous work in carying out the quinquennial census for the Western Provinces, which work is now under way.
High Commissioner's Office, London-salaries, $18,450 ; contingencies, $32,588.


George Perry Graham: I do not wish to be too inquisitive, but could the Government give us any information as to the permanent appointee to this position? Is the gentleman who is performing the duties of that office at the present time permanently appointed, or only temporarily? Rumours have been afloat for a long time as to the probability of us losing an hon. member of the Government. In fact, at one time there was quite a discussion as to which one it would be; but I think the finger of choice now points to but one member. As it seems that the term t of Parliament is to be extended, and that we shall not be having an election for the present, it strikes me that an appointment might be made to this office, which has been in the public mind more or less for some months. Could the Government give us any information without divulging any Cabinet secrets?


Robert Laird Borden: As there are no secrets to divulge, it is very easy indeed to answer my hon. friend. At the present time the duties of the High Commissioner are being discharged by a member of the Canadian Government, who has been resident in London since about June, 1914. Those duties have been adequately and efficiently discharged by Sir George Perley, and we have found his presence in London as a member of the Government to be of very great advantage in the necessary co-operation between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Canada -co-operation more necessary than ever during the war. The arrangement, which would have terminated in the autumn of 1914, had it not been for the outbreak of war, has been continued with that marked advantage ever since, and so long as the war continues I see no reason for suggesting any change in that respect.


John Howard Sinclair: This item does not
include the High Commissioner's salary.


Robert Laird Borden: The salary is
not paid, as there is no occupant of the position. Sir George Perley is in London as a member of the Canadian Government. While there he is discharging the duties of the office of High Commissioner, but he is there primarily as a member of the Canadian Government.
General Consulting Engineer to Dominion Government-salaries, $7,600 ; contingencies, $150.


John Howard Sinclair: What department is that engineer in?


Robert Laird Borden: He is not in any particular department, but reports to the Minister of Railways and to the Prime Minister.


George Perry Graham: Mr. Collingwood Schrei-ber, is it?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes. I think the arrangements under which he carries on his duties were initiated under the late Administration.
Civil Service Commission-Salaries, $32,587.50 ; contingencies, $15,500.


George Perry Graham: On previous occasions
there has been -a good deal of discussion about the Civil Service Commission. Has the personnel of the commission been changed at all during the year?


Robert Laird Borden: No.


George Perry Graham: The personnel not having been changed, I presume that the Government has confidence in the commission.
I wonder whether the Minister of Customs has apologized to the Chairman of the Board for the attack of last year.


John Dowsley Reid: Not at all. I do not take
back one word of what I said. I should like to add some more to it.


George Perry Graham: I do not see, then, how
the Government can collectively have confidence in the commission,-and either they should change the commission, or the Minister of Customs should apologise to the chairman, or resign from the Government.
I do not see how he can belong to a Government which has confidence in a commission in whose chairman the minister has not confidence. Personally, I think the commision has had a pretty hard row to hoe in many ways. I have differed with the chairman of the commission myself, but never in the language and tones of the Minister of Customs. I think the work of the commission is satisfactory on the whole.
I have heard that they have been overridden a good many times during the past year in their attempts to keep within the four corners of the Civil Service Act. I hope that is not true. I know the Minister of Customs would override the commission if he could; but I hope that the Government, instead of overriding the commission or endeavouring to get around the statute, will comply with it. It would be far better to improve the weak points of the Act than continually to appoint members to the Civil Service in violation of it. If I remember correctly, it is section 21 that proves most convenient to ministers who wish to evade the spirit of the Act. But there is a danger that they may go too far in applying that clause, which has reference to special or technical knowledge. I am glad the Government did not pay any attention to the Minister of Customs, and kept the commission intact.


Robert Laird Borden: Speaking in the House last year upon the subject to which my hon. friend has directed attention, I ventured the opinion that probably the observations which were made by the member of the commission alluded to bad been based upon the newspaper report of a certain return, and not upon the return itself. The gentleman in question came to me afterwards, and told ' me frankly that my conjecture in that regard was entirely correct, namely, that he had based his observations upon the newspaper reports, and he admitted in a very frank and manly way that he .should have looked at the return itself before he made his observations. Doubtless any Oivi'l Service Commission is liable to have more or less difficulties with any Administration. I do. not imagine, that the Civil' Service Commission has, within the same period, had many more difficulties with the present Government than it had with our predecessors. If some advantage has been taken of the section to which my hon. friend has alluded, I am very much afraid that my colleagues in the Government have learned a lesson in that regard from the example of their predecessors. I agree entirely, however, that while we have a Civil Service Act, it is most desirable that we .should conform with its terms, and make no attempt to stretch its provisions, or to use it for purposes which were not within the contemplation of Par.iiam.ent at the time the Act was pa.S'sed,


Charles Marcil: To my knowledge, Section 21 has been interpreted in .several ways. When I was Speaker, translation was declared to be non-technical. It has since been declared to be technical, and a large number of appointments have been made in that way; not only to the House of Commons staff, but to the staff generally. As to the personnel of the commission, if I remember rightly, a statute was passed about two years ago authorizing the appointment of a third member of the commission. That statute, however, seems to be a dead letter. In answer to a question put by me last year, the Government replied that there was no chairman of the commission; that both commissioners were on an equal footing. I think both members of the commission are hard working men, and that they have had a more strenuous time than they expected when they were appointed. Does the Prime Minister intend to complete this commission, or is the statute to remain a dead letter?


Robert Laird Borden: I think I was asked that same question both last session and the session before, and I give the same answer now that I gave then, namely, that we thought it was desirable to make some amendments to the Civil Service Act, that other matters in regard to it were under consideration, and that, pending those amendments, we thought it unnecessary to make the additional appointment. Mly hon, friend is quite correct in his

appreciation of the status of the two commissioners.


Herménégilde Boulay: I should like to say a few words touching the Civil Service as regards the qualifying tests. I always laboured under the idea that a list was made of the names of candidates who came within the required number of marks, and that they had not to qualify further subsequently.
Only lately have I found out my mistake. It seems that all who come up for examination are put aside after there is found a sufficient number to fill the vacancies. To me this 'method of preference is altogether unfair. How 'does it work? Here are young men who have obtained more than the bare percentage of marks required. Yet if there be no position for them they are cast aside. They forfeit the fees they paid, and no more attention is given them than if they had never come up for examination.
In my opinion the system is unfair and should he changed. I should suggest, as a possible remedy, that a list be kept of all the successful candidates, and that they be not required, two or three years later, to pass further examinations.
It may be that some plausible justification of such a course can be found, but I fail to see any. Many complaints have come to me from young men in such a situation. I inquired the reason of their having been refused positions in the service. Their invariable reply was that they did not know. How could they know, when I myself, after five years in this House, and after ceaseless attempts to get information, am still in the dark. One of the Civil Service Commissioners informed me that of the successful candidates only the number required to fill the vacancies received consideration.
I hold that a change ought to be made. Among those who are rejected in this way some may be found who are as competent as those who secure employment. Yet they have to qualify once more, and undergo tests which are often very difficult, particularly for the first division of the Service, as well as for the second and third. It is most unfair to require of these young men to qualify anew on matters concerning which two or three years previously, when fresh from their schooling, they had successfully undergone the test.
I wish to discuss another question. My remarks, I feel certain, will not agree with 
a certain section of the people. I refer to the employment of girls in the Civil Service. In my opinion there are far too many in the departments. For a number of years some young women in the Service have been earning salaries reaching to a thousand, twelve hundred, fifteen hundred and even up to two thousand four hundred dollars. Those positions could be filled with advantage by young men who would willingly accept work at such salaries, come to Ottawa and become heads of families. To my mind the system is ridiculous to the utmost.
Those girls, if debarred from Government positions, would be none the worse fox it; they would become mothers of families, and thus the best interests of the country would be served. My four years' experience as member has brought home to me that those young ladies who receive large salaries are not anxious to marry. They prefer their salaries to household duties. Yet in motherhood they would be of much greater utility to their country. The Civil Service Commission might possibly do something to improve the situation. The matter, however, rests with the Government, and I appeal to the ministers who are now in office to bring about a change.
As I have only just stated, objection will be taken to my remarks in certain quarters, but I am speaking in the general interest.
There is another point on which I would insist particularly. In my opinion the number of French-Canadians appointed every year in the public service falls short of its due proportion, when the French-Canadian population is taken into account. Is it not beyond belief that in certain departments there is not a competent staff of translators?
My object is not to east any blame on the present Government. Similar conditions have long prevailed in the Service. It existed during the previous Administration, and it goes on to-day, because we have not sufficiently nursed the sore; we have failed to insist on having in the departments a fair proportion of French-Canadianp..
Last year I called the attention of the House to the fact that in the one department, on a total of ninety employees, only two were French-Canadian. I think it is unfair.
When we have dealings with the public officials we can hardly find any to understand us in French. In a room where are

to be found ten or twelve clerks, if information is sought in the French language, those clerks look askance at one another and appear to be at sea. It would seem, indeed, that our enquiries were made in Austrian or German.
If the Civil Service Commission cannot cope with the situation I call upon the Government to deal with the matter. Not the messengers only should be competent to speak French, but the higher officials as well. If such were the case there would be no renewal of the incident that happened a few days ago at the Department of Public Works, where a certain gentleman by the name of Narroway dismissed a French-Canadian because the latter spoke in French. It is sad for a French-Canadian to be told: No French spoken here, get out!
Again I. say that the Cabinet is not to be blamed for those conditions. The incident I referred to may be accounted for by the narrow-mindedness of the individual whose name is Narroway, but who would 'more properly bear the name of Narrowminded. I have about done with the remarks I intended to make on the 'Civil Service Commission.
Before resuming my seat I shall again insist on the fact that too large a number of women are employed in the Civil Service. I want the matter to be understood in its proper light. There are too many of these young ladies in the public service, who earn large salaries, and who, instead of putting their .money to a proper use, such as depositing it in the bank, or spending it to help their families, squander it in dress, so that it is of no benefit to any person, or to the country.
Departments Generally-Contingencies-care and cleaning of Departmental Buildings, including amount of $50 each to E. Snowden and W. H. Jeffery for firing noon gun, $220,000.


William Thomas White: There is an
increase here of $45,000. I had not expected to go on this afternoon, and so I have not the details of this increase before me; but my deputy explains that it is made in view of the occupation of the new Customs building in Ottawa, and possibly some other buildings as well. Of course, the House will understand, we are not bound to spend this $45,000. We will only spend as much as is necessary.


George Perry Graham: I imagine it is a matter which we need not discuss at this stage, but it has been proposed that the new
customs building should be prepared for the occupation of Parliament.


Robert Laird Borden: That would make a difference, of course.


George Perry Graham: It would mean that the expenditure would come under another head altogether.
Referring to salaries authorized by statute, especially the item of salaries of ministers, after the remarks of the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White), I am more convinced than ever that the British system of giving different salaries to heads of different departments is not a bad system.
I am not sure that it can be worked out in Canada, for it seems difficult to work it out even in the case of deputy ministers, although there is considerable difference in the work of different deputy heads. At the present time, perhaps, we could not make a distinction between the work carried on by the different ministers, although to a person who has studied the situation, there can be no doubt that some heads of departments carry greater burdens and have to work much harder than others. I think that the country is growing so large that the Government will begin to think about the advisability or possibility of a distinction being made. But that is not what I specially wished to refer to. I call attention to the salary of the Solicitor General, $5,000. I understand that the Solicitor General is now a member of the Privy Council, a new departure having been made in that direction last year. Would the Prime Minister give the House an explanation as to how that came about?


Robert Laird Borden: The Solicitor General is a member of the Privy Council; I think Sir Charles Fitzpatrick, when he was appointed Solicitor General, became a member of the Privy Council. It was thought desirable, in view of his position, and of his being occasionally required to discharge the duties of Minister of Justice, that the Solicitor General should be made a member of the Privy Council. Since becoming a member of the Privy Council he has performed important duties connected with the administration of the Department of Justice, which otherwise he could not very well have performed.


John Howard Sinclair: The Prime Minister has said that the HighCommissioner Iot Canada in' London is a member of the Canadian Government. I note that 'his salary is covered by this item of $10,000, though it

was not included in the estimate for the High Commissioner's office. I s'hotild like to have an explanation as to how this salary is made up, and how it differs from the salary given to members of the Government.


Robert Laird Borden: Sir George Per-ley has been discharging his duties as member of the Canadian Government without portfolio. He is not in receipt of any salary.


John Howard Sinclair: But he gets this salary of $10,000.


Robert Laird Borden: No. He gets an allowance for expenses, but no salary.


John Howard Sinclair: Why, then, are we voting him a salary?


Robert Laird Borden: The amount was not expended last year, and it will not be expended this year.


George Perry Graham: Unless an appointment is made.


Robert Laird Borden: The amount is voted in view of the possibility that a permanent appointment may be made; but it is not paid to Sir George Perley. Being a member of Parliament, he could not receive the salary unless a change were made in the law.


George Perry Graham: As I understand it, Sir George Perley is a member of the Government without portfolio, and consequently he does npt get a salary as a member of the Government. His expenses are paid,
' but his services are gratuitous.


Robert Laird Borden: He receives only an allowance for expenses, and even about these he has been more ot less sensitive.
I have urged him to include certain items of additional expense to which he is subjected, and it was only with the greatest reluctance that he was induced to accept even part of those expenses which I thought were quite reasonable, and which I am sure Parliament would ratify.
Administration of Justice-living allowance for judge of Atlin district, B.C., $1,200.
Mr. MARCIL,: Great inconvenience is occasioned by the * non-appointment of judges to fill vacancies in the districts of Montreal and Three Rivers. Does the Prime Minister know whether it is the intention to fill these vacancies in the near future?


Robert Laird Borden: It is upon the recommendation of the Minister of Justice that such appointments are made, but his unfortunate illness, which has lasted longer than he anticipated, has prevented the bringing of these matters to a head. I anticipate that he will be here toenorrow or Friday at the latest, when, no doubt, he will take up the matters to which my hon. friend has referred.
Legislation-Library of Parliament, $62,200.


George Perry Graham: I think it would be wise for us to have some authoritative statement as to the condition of, the Library. We have a good report in the press, of course, but I think it would be well to have the statement of the Government as to the condition of the Library since the fire.
Sir ROBERT |10RDEN: I am not quite sure whether the librarians have been able up to the present time to make such an examination as would give information of certainty. However, I shall ask the joint librarians to prepare at the earliest pos-. sible moment a statement embodying the information which my hon. friend asks for.


Charles Marcil: Is it the intention of the Government to have in this building a temporary library for the use of members during the session?


Robert Laird Borden: I have really not had an opportunity of considering that; I shall bear my hon. friend's suggestion in mind and ascertain whether or not it ils practicable. The reading room, I understand, is provided for. I have not heard from the Minister of Public Works as to the practicability of bringing any part of the library into this building. I am afraid that if we did bring part of it here it would probably turn out that the particular books wanted on any occasion were not the books that were here.


Charles Marcil: We might have the Hansard and the Statutes.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand
from the Clerk of the House that arrangements have been made to provide a complete set of Hansard at once, and of the Statutes, as soon as practicable.
Legislation-contingent expenses in connection with the voters' lists, $10,600.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it the intention of the Government to print the voters' lists which are now being compiled for the current
year?


Robert Laird Borden: I think it would take a great deal more than this amount to print the lists. I cannot remember at the moment that the subject was under consideration, but I shall make inquiry and give the information to my hon. friend.


John Howard Sinclair: I notice from an answer given the otheT day that a number of voters' lists were printed, not in Ottawa, but at various places in the Maritime Provinces. I think that was a departure from the usual way of printing the lists, and I should like to know what proportion were thus printed; the reason for resorting to that method, and if that printing was done by public tender.


Robert Laird Borden: I will make
inquiry and give the information to my hon. friend. The Printing Department has had a great deal of extra work in connection with the war.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the House adjourned, without motion put, pursuant to rule.
Thursday, February 10, 1916.