1916-03-22

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. CARVELL:: 1.. By whom were the inspectors of shells and munitions appointed prior to the 1st day of December last past?
2.	Was any of such inspection done by^ the Canadian Inspection Company?

3.	How many inspectors has said company in its employ?
4.	Did the commission pay these inspectors at the rate of six dollars a day? If not, what was the per diem allowances?
5.	Has the said Canadian Inspection Company done any inspection for the Government of Canada during the past year? If so, how many inspectors have been employed, and what have they been paid per day?


Mr. REID:: 1,	2, 3, 4. No information.
5. Public Works:
Chief Engineer's Branch: Inspection of timber, 20 cents a thousand; steel, 23 to 35 cents a ton; sluice valves, "$7.50 a day for 21 days, and inspection of the Prince Rupert dry dock, $225 a month for one inspector.
Dredging Branch: Three inspectors employed for 65 days between 1st June and 30th October, 1915, at $7.50 a day on new bucket line of the dredge Mastadon.
Chief Architect's Branch: For inspection of steel work on two public buildings, 25 and 30 cents a ton.
Telegraph Branch: Inspecting 34-80 tons galvanized wire at 75 cents a ton.
Railways and Canals: It is not possible to state how many inspectors were employed as the inspection was paid for at a tonnage rate. For shop and mill inspection of bridge steel and reinforcing steel for the Welland ship canal, of bridge steel for the Hudson Bay railway, Dartmouth Branch Line and Trent canal, the rate was 30 cents per ton. For steel rails for the Hudson Bay railway the rate was .05 cents per ton, for track fastenings .20 cents per ton and for cement .031 cents per brl. The regular rate for field inspection of bridge erection was $130 per month, plus travelling expenses to and from the work at commencement and end of job, but this was increased to $150 per month in case of Manitou Rapids bridge, Hudson Bay railway, and $175 per month at Port Nelson. Some inspection work was done by the above company for the Government railways at unit prices.


IMPRISONMENT OP JACK REID FOR SEDITION.
Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	What were the words pronounced by Jack Reid, who was, as alleged, condemned to 15 months' imprisonment for sedition at Calgary?
2.	Were the words pronounced by Reid more offensive than those pronounced by Arm&nd Lavergne, M.P.P., on the floor of the Quebec Legislative Assembly?
3.	Is it the intention of the Government to liberate Jack Reid? If so, when? If not, why not?
4.	Is it the intention of the Government to
give equal rights to Reid and Armand Lavergne? If not, why not?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	The prosecution of Reid was initiated and carried on by the local authorities. The information of this Government as to the words he pronounced is derived from the judge's charge, copy of which is hereto annexed.
2.	The Government has no information as to the words said to have been pronounced by Armand Lavergne, M.L.A., on the floor of the Quebec Legislative Assembly.
3.	There are petitions before the Department of Justice for the exercise of executive clemency by His Royal Highness the Governor General. These petitions are receiving the careful consideration which is given to all such applications.
4.	The right of both these men are governed by, and equal, under the law. They halve been and will be equally respected by the Government.
Rex vs. John Reid

Judge's Charge to the Jury
The Court: Gentlemen of the Jury, the defendant is charged with having used this language at three different meetings held in the province of Alberta, two held at Evarts and one at Rocky Mountain House, and he wishes to be tried by me alone, but I thought that this was eminently a case fitted for six jurymen, six citizens of this province to deliberate upon, because it is an offence of a somewhat peculiar nature. In regard to the majority of offences which are made indictable under our Criminal Code or under our law of Canada, there would be very little difference of opinion, I apprehend, and very few would express dissent to the fact that those things are made indictable offences, such as theft, arson and murder, but in regard to the offences charged it has some peculiar properties and is one where good common sense requires to be exercised in a remarkable degree, because there are certain principles which must be recognized and sometimes there may be an apparent conflict, of those principles; there may be a difficulty of adjustment so they may meet on a common ground; in other words, there may be some difficulty in a proper appreciation of just what a man may do and what he may not do when he is advocating political ideas or when he is discussing different forms of government-therefore, I thought that six men exercising the common sense which they have acquired through their knowledge of the world would be admirably fitted and even perhaps better fitted than I myself, to adjudicate upon so important a matter, so my duty will be to direct you on what I believe to be the law in relation to such offences and to call your attention to the evi'denoe adduced and the proper way to arrive at a correct conclusion. Then the matter will be one for you to determine as a question of fact.
When the authorities charge any person with an indictable offence under, our law, he is entitled to the presumption that he is innocent and the duty devolves upon the prosecution to

satisfy you beyond a reasonable doubt that the inferences you should draw, the only inference you can draw, is that he is guilty. If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt then you are bound to bring in your verdict in accordance with that conclusion.
Now, there are some principles which must be recognized in adjusting yourselves to the proper viewpoint in connection with a charge of sedition. You have been told that the gist of the offence is speaking words of seditious intent and the Code has not described or attempted to define what seditious intent is, but the authorities are pretty well settled upon that and apparently it is to this effect, that any persons wishing to discuss public questions, questions affecting our Government institutions, affecting the authorities who administer those, they must do so within certain bounds. Counsel for the defence has quite properly called your attention to the well accepted principle applicable under British law and British institutions, and I may say particularly the British institutions, because it formed one of the central points of political discussion in England for a long time before the principle was eventually recognized and established, namely, that the subject of a Government had a proper right, the legal right to discuss and to criticise and even to condemn the Government if he thought the Government was dishonest or inefficient or the form of government was one which he believed was not the best one for his country; that principle is in force now and recognized by us that every subject has that right.
Some reference has been made to the religious opinons or the lack of religious beliefs of the defendant. That is also recognized in the British Dominion that a man has absolutely freedom of conscience as to the religious beliefs or lack of religious belief which he may adopt or profess and that is not to be charged against him.
Now, then, I think you may start with that as one of the accepted principles and one which must be kept in mind. There is another very important principle recognized and that is this that in order that any government may afford protection to life and property and even afford protection to that principle to which I have referred, namely:	(that
people shall have the right of freedom of speech and belief), there must be some authority to assert and protect that right therein ; that means there must be some administrative function, some form of government which will be able to so administer the law that we may have these privileges and that we may profess them without molestation assuming we are honestly professing them and adopting them for an honest purpose. Then you have those two principles and they may apparently meet and may apparently conflict when we come to discuss and decide just what is a seditious utterance or what are words which are capable of being charged as having a seditious intention, Every one must be presumed to intend the natural meaning and consequences and results of his words and his action, and I think that is peculiarly applicable to a man who assumes the responsibility of teaching or advocating or trying to enlighten others on political principles. I do not think he can complain if we assume he is a man who has undertaken to educate, to instill in others doctrines which he believes. Then he cannot be heard to complain if we say we will take him at his word,

and we will infer his intention in speaking these words from the natural meaning, the natural consequences of these words. Now I have already told you that in order that there may be an administrative function, some form of government which will be able to maintain law and order that involves that we shall not have in our community, in our country, riots, disturbances, tumults in places where people meet or assemble; and so then those who wish to express their opinions either by way of advocating any particular political opinion or by way of enlisting others must have that in view that they may be chargeable, if they speak words in times and places and of a nature that may have a tendency to incite people to opposition; to create in the people who hear them a spirit of hostility, to arouse feelings of animosity.^ I feel that as men of ordinary common sense it must be plain, it hardly needs to be argued, that words which will bring into contempt and scorn and ridicule those who are in high authority must be considered very very carefully by those who intend to utter them. I have already told you that people have the right to have that opinion even of those in high authority, even of members of the Government, even of the King, but the law requires a limit in this request that when they want to express these opinions to others they must have in view the fact that the law will not tolerate them expressing them under conditions which may create the feelings to which I have already referred, the feelings of animosity and hostility.
In regard to the words spoken at the three different meetings, the evidence is to the effect that they were spoken by the defendant in his capacity as an advocate of a party or an organization which I infer is of a political or semi-political nature. The defendant was holding meetings in the province of Alberta, in which he was discussing the principles which he believed should be applied and the form of government, or possibly the absence ' of form of government, although I have not heard any very clear expressions of the form of government. However generally we may say, that he claims to be the representative of the Socialist Organization of the province of Alberta, and he was advocating the principles of his organization, and I think it is only fair to say that he was doing that for the purpose of obtaining converts, of impressing people with his views and thereby turning people from their present opinions to his opinions, if they did not in the first instance agree with him.
Now the evidence is to the effect that in discussing these questions he dealt very pointedly with the present condition of things, with the state of war which now exists between our country and Austria and Germany, and he made certain statements at these different meetings which are pretty nearly the same. "Witnesses have sworn positively that he said he served in the Boer War and that he personally knew of British atrocities and the burning of Boer homesteads that were quite equal to any atrocities now charged against the Germans. Three witnesses have pledged their oath to that. They were unshaken in cross-examination and they say their minds were particularly impressed by that statement because they were apparently inclined to discredit it. They pledged their oath that their understanding of what was said was this, that the speaker, namely, the defendant, had served in the Boer war and knew these things by personal observation. The defendant

asks you to believe something different. He admits he was not on active service there, further than that he enlisted about the close of the war, and when he arrived with his company in South Africa the war was practically over. He says he didn't say these things at all, so either these people are mistaken or else he is not telling the truth. I think it is a fair observation to say that when a man at a public meeting who is advocating political principles makes a charge like that he should not make it in ambiguous language, he should not leave any doubt upon his audience as to whether he is speaking of personal knowledge or whether he is giving some other man's statement of it, because it is a pretty severe arraignment of Great Britain's methods if these things were true and these witnesses pledge their oath that they believed this defendant to be giving his own personal knowledge of these matters. He says he was not, that he was giving a statement of some one else. They pledge theif oath that he in discussing the present war charged the British soldiers with selling German fingers as souvenirs in Scotland and Paris, and that these were preserved in alcohol. He rebuts part of that statement and confines it, I believe, to an admission that he said such things were being done in Paris or somewhere in France. These people swear that he said, " We have nothing to be proud of that we have been born under the British flag, that we have no King or country. He served his country faithfully during the Boer war and then he travelled five thousand miles home to find he. didn't have a job, he didn't have a country, he didn't have a flag." His statement now here is that he didn't serve through the Boer war but reached there about the time the war was practically concluded. These witnesses swear positively that he made statements to the effect that this war was being carried on in the interests of the capitalists class who were really the inciting cause of the war. They also say he criticised the administration of the Patriotic Fund, saying that the proceeds would go the members of the . British Cabinet and the British Parliament. That these same were interested in an Armament Trust that had control of the armaments in both the Allies and Germany and Austria. He qualifies that now by saying that he was giving the opinion of another writer in that regard. They say further in their evidence that especially at the last meeting at which there were over a hundred present there was a very strong feeling, that the meeting was on the edge of a tumult. That to my mind is very important because that is one of the features which must be kept in mind very prominently in determining whether or not the defendant is guilty or not guilty of the charge. You are the absolute judges of the fact but I do not think it is an unfair comment for me to make when I say that might reasonably be expected, if at a time when our country is at war when great efforts are being made to enable the country to conduct this war to a successful conclusion, if some of the men holding public meetings, denounce those who are conducting the war, denounce their honesty and integrity and advocate that recruits should not join because those who are conducting the war have a vicious purpose in conducting it, then it seems to me those are things which might well agitate people and create a feeling of hostility and ill faith.
Now, gentlemen of the Jury, this is entirely a question of fact for you, having in mind the
directions which I have given you, and if in your opinion the purpose of these speeches or of any one of them, or any part of any one of them could fairly be considered to have in view the creation of a feeling of hostility for the purpose of bringing into contempt our administration, or any part of it or our army, or any part of it, or of those who are enlisting then it seems to me that the defendant has brought himself within the definition of the charge may be found guilty, if you come to that conclusion. The defendant seems to be a man who has travelled a good deal, you have heard him give his evidence. He seems to me a man who has made some study of the affairs of the world so he cannot have the benefit of this, that he was not able to appreciate and properly conclude what would be the reasonable effect of his words. He is apparently a somewhat clever young man, can speak quite fluently, can advocate his principles quite fluently and apparently is not lacking in intelligence at all and while granting him the right to hold political principles and to advocate them in a peaceful and proper way yet he must recognize the law as it exists. You, under your oath, must administer that law on the facts as you find them without fear or favour and as I have already observed I think it is a matter eminently fitting for six jurymen to adjudicate upon, not only for the purpose of the words spoken but the credibility of the defendant is in issue because in regard to some of the statements he has, as I have already observed, pledged his oath against the oath of the witnesses for the Crown. He is asking you te put a different construction on some of his statements from the construction which these men put upon them who heard them, and I have already told you that when people in public places for political or other purposes advocate things they are properly chargeable if people draw an inference which is a reasonable inference from the words spoken, and the words spoken have been so far as the evidence for the Crown is concerned, pretty well established. A good many of them have been admitted by the defendant. He has qualified them in a number of instances by saying these were not statements of his own knowledge but they were information from other sources. He has not given a very satisfactory explanation to my mind of the sources of the information in some of these regards. If he had them and is unable to have them now he is unfortunate but I am bound to make this observation that when a man in a public meeting attempts to instruct people or attemps to advocate political principles and make certain statements, I think he is under a duty to be able to give a reasonable substantiation of them when they purport to be statements acquired from some other source, especially when he makes wholesale charges which impute dishonest and improper motives to other citizens and when charged with making those statements he then says " well, I got them from some other source, from some newspapers or some journal ". I do not think we are asking too much of him if we expect him within reasonable bounds to produce the source of his information and if he does not make a reasonable explanation in that regard I think it is one of the items which may influence you properly in determining the credibility you will give to his statements in that regard.
Now, gentlemen of the jury, this is entirely and consider your verdict. It will be necessary for you to say under each count, there are

three counts charged and you can take them with you. It will be necessary for you to give a verdict on each of the three counts. In other words, give three verdicts, guilty or not guilty in each case.


POST OFFICE EMPLOYEES.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: How many post office employees were actually on the pay-list, both permanent and temporary, on the 1st February, 1916, at the following offices; Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Victoria, Three Rivers, Sherbrooke, St. Johns, N.B., and Halifax?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Montreal, 1,275; Toronto, 1,070; Quebec, 262; Winnipeg, 386; Vancouver, 289; Victoria, 117; Three Rivers, 25; Sherbrooke, 28; St. John, 95; Halifax, 93; being a decrease in every instance, except one, for 1916 as compared with 1914.


SUMMERSIDE RIFLE RANGE.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	Were tenders 'called for the building of the rifle range at Summerside, P.E.I. ? If so, who got the contract, and at what amount?
2.	From whom was the land bought for said range, what was the quantity of land bought from each person, and the amount paid to each?
3.	What was the total cost of said range, including all extras and work done, such as surveying, fencing, etc.?
4.	Were tenders called for fencing said range? If not, who did the work, and how was it given?
5.	Who was the inspector of said range, how many days was he employed, and at what rate per diem?


Mr. KEMP:: 1.	Yes. Contractor, Mr. Edelbert Poirier; amount of tender, $5,497.
2.	The land was purchased from the undermentioned with areas and costs as follows:
	Acres.	$
O. Milligan	.... 3.04	575Taunton Estate .. ..	.... 7.86	900J. Mitchell	.... 18.12	700P. Wright	.... 6.93	1,000J. W. Reilly	.... 0.15	175Brazil Estate	.... 16.62	1,200Grady Estate	
0.20 Exchange.Total ..	
52.95	4,550
Less to Grady Estate .. 0.91 Exchange.
52.04
3.	$7,715.
4.	Yes. Edelbert Poirier. Lowest tender.
5.	A. R. Brennan; employed for 131 days at $3.50 per diem.


SUMMERSIDE POST OFFICE BUILDING.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	Were tenders called for the addition to, and changes made in the post office building at 
Summerside, P.E.I. ? If so, who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender?
2.	If not let by tender, how was it given, and for what amount?
3.	What was the total cost of the rearrangement of the letter boxes and work done in connection with this work?
4.	Who was the inspector for the whole work on said building, for how many days, and at what rate per diem?
5.	What was the total cost of changes made on said building?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	H. P. Woods, $16,200, and P. Tanton, $18,299. After awarding contract, a clock tower was added at a cost of $1,850.
3.	Tenders called and contract awarded to the J. T. Schell Co. for fittings at $1,273; final estimate, $1,298. Letter boxes, grilles, etc., furnished by Rubenstein Bros, for $1,215.67.
4.	W. N. Heustis, $4 per working day, 235 days, $940.
5.	$27,397.77.


FISHERIES ADVISORY BOARD.
Mr. KYTE:: 1.	Who are the members of the Advisory Board of the Fishery Department?
2.	How much was paid to each during the calendar year 1915 respectively, for services, travelling allowances and expenses?


Mr. HAZEN:: Those who were appointed on the different committees of the board, and the amounts paid them during 1915, were:
Atlantic Committee

Allowance. Expenses.
C. H. B. Longworth. . . .	$ 40		
H. B. Short 	140	$151	45Captain Wm. C. Smith..	*310	294	,58Gideon Hemeon	*220	163	81Andrew King	120	140	95F. T. B. Young	90	95	00P. P. Russell	60	29	80A. B. Carson	80	84	85Azade Arseneault . . . . Prairie Committee-	100	32	55James C. Melvill	
John F. Sinclar	
D. F. Reid	Pacific Committee-	D. N. McIntyre	
F. H. Cunningham.. ..	Departmental Members-	G. J. Desbarats	
W. A. Found	64	71Doctor E. E. Prince. . . .	[DOT]338	85J. J. Cowie	62	72
Including allowance and expenses while engaged in work on subcommittee to investigate operations of Dogfish Reduction Works.
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND FISHERY INSPECTOR^.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	How many fishery inspectors has the Government in Prince Edward Island?
I

2.	What are their names and addresses?
3.	What salary or remuneration does each receive, and what do they receive in the way of travelling expenses or other perquisites?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	One.
2.	John A. Matheson, Charlottetown, P.E.I.
3.	Present salary, $1,350. Inspectors of Fisheries are allowed their travelling expenses when travelling on official business. If they use their own horses they are permitted to charge ten cents per mile therefor.


LEVIS QUARANTINE STATION.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Is the Government aware that there is said to exist on the lot No. 550 on the official cadastral plan for St. Lawrence Ward, in the city of LSvis, which was purchased by the Government for a quarantine station at Lfivis, two real servitudes, one in favour of Ferdinand Lemieux and the other in favour of Arthur Morency?
2.	If so, does the Government intend to free the said lot so purchased for quarantine purposes in Levis, of those two servitudes, without such servitudes having been brought to its attention?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	The Government is aware that Ferdinand Lemieux and Arthur Morency claim servitude upon the property purchased by the Government for a quarantine station at Levis.
2.	The legal advisers of the Government are of the opinion that the clfdm of Mr. Ferdinand Lemieux is not well founded, and an action has been instituted by the said Ferdinand Lemieux and is now standing for hearing in the Exchequer Court to determine the validity of his claim. The servitude claimed 'by Arthur Morency consists in the alleged right to maintain a water pipe passing through part of the property from a spring on the hill to his dwelling house. As the presence of this pipe upon the property does not at present interfere with the work of the station no steps have been taken to have it removed.


LETHBRIDGE CAMP SUPPLIES.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Who has the contract for provisioning the prisoners in the internment camp at Lethbridge, Alberta?
2.	Was the contract received after tenders had been asked?
3.	How were the tenders invited, by advertisement or posted notice?
4.	Who were the tenderers?


Mr. KEMP:: The supplies for the
prisoners at the internment camp at Lethbridge are procured from the contractors for the Militia, Department.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Who has the contract for supplying provisions for the troops stationed at Lethbridge, Alberta ?
2.	What firms were invited to tender?
3.	Were tenders asked by advertisement or posted notice?


Albert Edward Kemp: [DOT]
1.	Meat, P. Burns & Co.; groceries, Hudson's Bay Co.; jam and marmalade, E. D. Smith & Son; bread, John Gilmore; hay and oats, L. F. Bonnell; straw, E. A. Sherman; tea, A. McDonald Co., Ltd.; coffee,
S.	G. Freeze.
2.	Meat, Delaney's Ltd., P. Burns & Co., Fred Swingler.
Groceries: Geo. Kerr & Co., L. C. Teeple, Hudson's Bay Co.
Hay, oats, straw: L. F. Bonnell, E. A. Sherman, Hyssop Bros.
Bread: John Gilmore, City Bakery (R. W. .Scott).
Jam and marmalade: T. Upton Co., Ltd., Dominion Canners, Ltd., Wagstaffe, Ltd.,
E.	D. Smith & Son.
Tea and coffee: Robinson & Co., Hudson's Bay Co., Hardy and Buchanan, G.
F.	and J. Galt, S. G. Freeze, L. Petrie & Co., Campbell, Wilson & Horn, L. T. Mew-burn & Co., (tea only).
3.	All tenders, except for tea, coffee, jam and marmalade, were obtained by Col. Cruikshank, D.O.C. at Calgary; those for tea, coffee, jam and marmalade, by circular letters cent from the Militia Department at Ottawa.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a return showing a list of companies firms or persons if any, resident in Halifax, N.S., at present in the Department of Militia and Defence from whom are asked tenders for war supplies on behalf of the said Department or War Purchasing Commission ; and the nature of the supplies for which tenders were asked during the calendar year 1915 for any war supplies at Halifax, N.S.; to whom tenders were awarded, and at what price, for the said respective articles or supplies.
Mr. Copp.-For a return showing how many conductors, brakeman, drivers and fireman respectively, were on duty on the Canadian Government railways between Moncton and Camp-bellton during the month of February, 1916; and how many hours each of the above mentioned trainmen and enginemen were on duty each trip between said points during said month of February. 1916.
Mr. Fortier.-For a return showing how many sessional clerks, messengers, stenogra- . phers and typists, servants, charwomen, etc., both permanent and temporary, were on the pay-list of the House of Commons for the session
[Stage Direction]
of 1910-11; and how many sessional clerks, messengers, stenographers and typists, servants, charwomen, etc., both permanent and temporary, were on the pay-list of the House of Commons on March 14, 1916.
Mr. McCraney.-For a return showing the names and addresses of all employees of the Government in the constituency of Battleford. together with their respective duties, salaries and date of appointment; and also a statement of the total number employed in September, 1911.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I should like to ask the Government whether the Minister of Militia is absent in England on official business. If not, what is the reason for his absence there?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: He is absent on official business, more particularly in connection with the training camps at Shorn-cliffe and Bramshott. There are between forty and fifty thousand men in those two , camps, and for certain reasons it was thought advisable that some inquiry should be made into some conditions there prevailing.


Wilfrid Laurier: May I ask if
he has written instructions?


Robert Laird Borden: No, he has not written instructions; he conferred with me on the subject before going.


COLONEL J. WESLEY ALLISON.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. PROULX:: I learn from the newspapers that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Minister of Customs were in New York last Monday. I would like to know whether they went there in order to bring our friend, Col. J. Wesley Allison, back to Ottawa, where his presence is very much in request in the Public Accounts Committee, and if not, whether they capie across him during their visit to New York?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: No, they came back as immigrants.


John Dowsley Reid: So far as I am concerned, I was in New York on private business, and I did not see Col. Allison, nor did I hear from him, nor look for him.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Now let us hear from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


John Douglas Hazen: So far as the question has reference to Col. Allison, my answer would be exactly the same as that of my hon.

friend the Minister of Customs. I left Ottawa on Friday afternoon and went to Washington on business of a public character, which it is not desirable that I should reveal to the House at the present time. I was not aware of Col. Allison's being in New York, and my business had no connection whatever with him.


REBUILDING OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ROGERS:: May I be permitted to bring once again to the attention of the House the very important questiop of the rebuild,ing of our House of Commons? Immediately after the fire the Public Works Department undertook to make a general clean-up of the debris, which the House will understand was then so necessary for the purpose of recovering the bodies of the unfortunates who were lost as a result of the fire. This work has been done, and I regret to have to mention that which hon. members of the House know, that we have not, been able to discover the remains of our late fellow-member, Mr. Law.
I assumed the responsibility of selecting Mr. Pearson, of Toronto, and Mr. Marchand4 of Montreal, two very prominent architects, and asked them to come to Ottawa, first of all, to make a report on the condition of the walls as left standing after the fire, which report has already been submitted to the House. After they had completed that report I asked them to prepare preliminary plans along the lines which were thought most suitable for the rebuilding of the structure. The plans so prepared were inspected, I think, by most of the hon. members of this House yesterday afternoon, and, from what I have understood, they appear to meet with general acceptance.
We are now faced with the task of dividing the space in such manner as will be suitable to hon. members, as well as to the various officers connected with the work of the House, and now also comes immediately a further task for consideration, that of the form of contract und,er which the work of rebuilding is to be proceeded with. Altogether, many important points are involved which require prompt and careful consideration. In view of the fact that our House of Commons is a common ground for both parties at all times, I confess I hesitate, as Minister of Public Works, to assume the great task of undertaking to please everybody in connection with the

many points incident to the carrying out of the work, and I am, therefore, free to acknowledge that I feel the need of the friendly and sympathetic co-operation of both sides of the House. In the hope of being able to secure this, I am going to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister and the right hon. the leader of the Opposition to be good enough to name three members from each side of the House to act with me in thq making of all necessary arrangements for the immediate rebuilding of the House of Commons.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is with
great pleasure that I say that, the work ' which has been done so far iby the Minister of Public Works has been quite satisfactory. We all acknowledge that in the manner in which he has provided for the temporary accommodation of members he has done his work as well as it could be done. With regard to the rebuilding of the Parliament Buildings, so far I am happy to say that I can also express my approval. The selection by the Minister of Public Works of the two architects, Mr. Pearson and Mr. Mar-chand, was eminently judicious, as both of those gentlemen stand very high in their profession. Yesterday I, with many other hon. members, inspected the plans which have been prepared by these two architects, and I at once expressed to my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works my satisfaction that therp is to be no change in the outside appearance of those buildings. A fact which I think every one will agree is most desirable. We all have a kindly regard for those buildings; they were of great beauty, and their beauty will not be marred by the plans of the architects.
As to the interior of the buildings, I would not speak with so< much confidence, but for my part I have no criticism to offer. So far as I could judge-I acknowledge my incompetence-the improvements suggested will certainly add to the beauty of the interior of the buildings and to the comfort of the members generally. I have only to add that I shall be glad to confer with my right hon. friend the Prime Minister as to the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: It is, of course, very difficult for one who is not an expert to understand from a mere inspection of the plans what a building will be when completed. So far as one is capable of judging, it seems to me that the plan proposed is the best possible that could be devised, unless indeed we should alter the external
appearance of the building, which I entirely agree with my right hon. friend should be avoided, if possible. The gentlemen who have very seriously devoted themselves to the work of preparing the plan are both very eminent in their profession. The plan which they have eventually adopted is not the one which they first suggested, but it is the result of much study and consideration with a view to preserving the former appearance of the building and at the same time of securing more adequate accommodation for the Senate 'and for the Conimons. A great many things will have to be taken into consideration in connection with the present plan, as to the location of the numerous offices which are necessary for carrying on the business of the House in a convenient way; but I understand from the architects, with whom I have spoken on the subject, that there will be more accommodation of that kind available under the proposed plan than there was in the building as it was before the fire. Therefore I think that we may congratulate ourselves, not only upon the selection of the two architects who have undertaken the work, but also upon the success which seems to have crowned their endeavours, and which I hope will be fully realized when the building is once more ready for occupation by the two Houses of Parliament. I shall, of course, be very glad to name three of my colleagues to co-operate with and assist the Minister of Public Works in conjunction with the gentlemen who shall be selected from the other side of the House.


William Pugsley: Is it intended that this committee shall have any duties beyond giving theiT opinion as to the best mode of laying out the new buildings and as to the accommodation to be afforded? >Is it in- [DOT] tended that the committee shall have to do with the letting of the contract; and, generally, the work of reconstruction? It is important to have it understood, whether the Minister of Public Works would desire to vest in the committee some form of control and responsibility as to how the work is to be done, whether by tender or by day's work, or whether their duties shall be limited to designing the proper lay-out of the building.


Robert Rogers: If the hon. gentleman will read my statement as reported in Hansard,
I think he will find that I covered that point.


Mr. MIDDLEBRO:: I desire to say a word on behalf of the private members of this

House, because in my capacity as one of the Whips, I have had many complaints as to the inadequacy of the accommodation given to private members. In many cases, eight, nine, and even ten members are crowded into one room. In my opinion, there is no reason why the private members of this House, who are supposed to be representative men in their several constituencies, should be compelled to occupy quarters here which they would not occupy at home. Whatever provision is made for the Ministers of the Crown and the officials, I hope the committee will see to it that if each member of the House is not given a separate room, at least the number of members occupying a room shall be reduced to a minimum. We must not forget that in the near future the House of Commons will have ten per cent more members than it now has. I think that members are entitled to more spacious quarters than they have had, even if it should cost half a million dollars more to provide proper accommodation in the new building, which will be designed to last for all time. I believe that the people would desire that their representatives should be reasonably accommodated.


Robert Rogers: According to the report
of the architects, there will be at least thirty-eight per cent more space in the new building than in the old. That being the case, I am sure that provision of an adequate character will be made for the requirements of the members of the House. That, I am sure, will be the first duty of the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: I really am
afraid it will be impossible to so re-arrange the new building that every member will have a room to himself. While it is desirable to give to the members all accommodation possible, we older members of Parliament know that formerly no rooms were provided for private members of the House. During the first five years I was in Parliament, I think that not more than ten per cent of the members had any accommodation in the way of a room. The older members were given the few rooms that were available at that time. About ten years ago, we began for the first time to make an endeavour to give private members some accommodation outside the Commons Chamber. I agree, of course, that we should endeavour to make the accommodation as extensive and as comfortable as possible.


WAR SUPPLIES-IRISH STEW.
Mr. D. SUTHERLAND (Oxford South):: 1	desire to ask the Acting Minister of Militia as to the correctness of a news item which appears in the Ottawa Evening Journal of last night, and which, if true, will cause a feeling of resentment among the producers of this country:
An order for 500,000 cans of Irish stew for shipment to Halifax for the use of the Canadian troops in Europe has been received by the Lang Canning Company here.


Albert Edward Kemp: There is no truth whatever in the statement in the despatch to which my hon. friend has called attention. No Irish stew has been ordered for the use of the troops.


PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
Hon. T. CHASE CASGRAIN:: My attention has been called to an item of news in the Ottawa . Free Press, headed: " Claimed Casgrain May Quit Cabinet," and various reasons are given in this item for my quitting the Cabinet. I beg to say that there is absolutely no foundation in fact for this statement.


Wilfrid Laurier: Nobody believes it.


CANADIAN RED CROSS SOCIETY.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Bill No. 48, to amend an Act to incorporate the Canadian' Red Cross Society.-Sir Robert Borden. Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Robert Laird Borden: Some amendments of no great importance were made by the committee to which this Bill was referred; it might be convenient that I should explain what they are. The word "elected," with respect to the member of the Central Council to represent each provincial branch, is changed to " appointed." This conforms with the Act as it was before amendment. The words " such branch " in subclause 2 of clause 6 are changed to the word " province," which is the wording of the present Act. The change is made to prevent any province claiming more than one member upon the Central Council, though as a matter of fact no province has more than one branch, nor is it intended that they should have more than one branch. Clause
2	changes the date upon which the report has to be made to the Militia Department from,, on or before the 31st of January to the end of February. These changes, with the exception of the insertion of the word

" province," were all requested by Sir John Gibson on behalf of the society.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


REORGANIZATION OF CANADIAN FORCES.
[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Robert Borden for
Committee of Supply:
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Before you leave
the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I wish to bring to the attention of the Government some statements that I have seen in the press. In the Montreal Gazette of yesterday it was stated that the Minister of Militia and Defence, who is now in, England, was going to reorganize the Canadian forces in England, and, I think, at the front as well. I see in to-day's Citizen a statement of a similar character, as follows:
One correspondent with unaffected simplicity asked the general if he meant soon to lead the Canadians into Berlin.
"Well," said Sir Sam, "if Douglas Haig goes I am going with him."
The general-
That is, the Minister of Militia and Defence.
-had an interview to-day with Lord Kitchener at the War Office, and will hold a conference of the Canadian brigadiers at his hotel tomorrow morning, when the whole question of a reorganization of the forces will be discussed.
The word "forces" is used; that would mean the forces in England and at the front as well. The forces in England and at the front are under the direction of the military authorities, and if they need reorganization, that would presuppose that there is now disorganization, which would be a very serious matter indeed. I think that question as to whether these statements are correct is worthy of serious consideration by the House and by the Government. If the Minister of Militia and Defence had to go to the old country for that purpose, there would be a state of chaos over there; but I hope it is not that bad. A short time ago I saw in the Toronto Telegram an intimation to the effect that while the Minister of Militia and Defence was in the United States some of the military authorities there consulted him with regard to military matters in that country, and that he put things right in a few moments. Of course, that is a matter of pride to every Canadian. But the question is:	Can the country at the present time
afford the absence of the Minister of Militia and Defence, who is so well qualified to organize even the military forces of the United States? A short time ago, after an order had been received from Great Britain for the sending of 20,000 troops to the old country, it was stated by the Militia Department, I think, that a good deal of disorganization had been discovered in Canada. Some of the older regiments that had been drilling for quite a considerable time were not up to strength and were not ready to leave for Great Britain on short notice. In consequence, some of the regiments that were in a 'higher state of efficiency, although they had been in training for a shorter time, had to be taken. That would show that there was some lack of organization here. It is strange, therefore, that the Minister of Militia and Defence (Sir Sam Hughes) should be able to organize our forces in Great Britain, and to give useful information to the military authorities in the United States, but could not keep up the organization here. Of course, these are only newspaper reports, but they are contained in newspapers supporting the Government, and they may disturb the public mind.
In the Montreal Gazette of yesterday I see a further reference to the visit of the Minister of Militia to the Old Country. I understand that this country is paying to the Canadian Associated Press some $15,000 a year for news from Great Britain. That is quite a sum of money, and if it is spent in proportion to the length of the telegrams that come to Canada and not in proportion to the quality of the news they contain, some discrimination should be exercised. This telegram, a column long, in the Montreal Gazette, treats of what I consider trivial matters. One paragraph says:
The Canadian Minister drove Ho the library in a limousine occupying a seat beside the mayor, who wore his full regalia of office. After inspection of the guard of honor, Sir Sam Hughes reviewed a parade of school cadets numbering several hundred. At the request of the distinguished visitor, a half holiday was granted to the pupils of the public schools.
While that may be of interest to some people, it is not a matter of general importance to the country, and if we havb to pay for it and other news of the same kind, there will be trouble. I do not think the people of Canada will care to contribute to the cost of cabling that class of news. I bring this matter to the attention of whatever minister can control it. There is considerable advertising of the Minister of Militia going on. I noticed this paragraph in

the Citizen, copied from the Montreal News:
How Canada was almost deprived forever of the services of her Minister of Militia and the world of its greatest character actor, was told by Mr. Cyril Maude when seen last night.
The important matter to which I direct attention is that there has apparently been such disorganization in the Canadian forces that it was necessary for the Minister of Militia and Defence to go to the Old Country to bring about a reorganization. That is a most important and serious matter, if the statement is correct.


Albert Edward Kemp: The hon. gentleman has referred to certain honours that have been conferred upon the Minister of Militia and Defence, both in the United States and in Great Britain, to which, I suppose, he does hot take any objection. The freedom of the city of Falmouth was conferred upon the minister, according to a newspaper report, which I presume is correct. The hon. gentleman would not take any objection to that?


James Joseph Hughes: No, I am only taking objection if we have to pay for the cabling of all this news.


Albert Edward Kemp: I have no information as to who paid for the conveyance in which the minister rode. I presume the hon. gentleman was not in the House when the right hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition asked a question in regard to the duties of the Minister of Militia in England, and was answered by the right hon. gentleman who leads the Government. I do not think I could say any more on that subject than was said by the Prime Minister.
SUPPLY.	,
The House in Committee of, Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Post Office Department-Outside Service, salaries and allowances, $7,943,152.25.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Mr. Chairman, I am really sorry that the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) is not here this afternoon, and I would gladly have postponed the consideration of the Estimates of the Post Office Department were it not that I believe it would be inconvenient and not in the public interest, because if I did so we would probably not have enough business to place before the House to-day. The committee

will allow me, before taking up this item, to make a statement as to the expenditure of the department within the last few years. I shall do so because dt seems to me that the committee is entitled to an explanation of certain items of the expenditure as to which criticism has been directed. I may say that a great deal -of the criticism which has been levelled at the department is due to incorrect information, and I am convinced that I will be able to show that a large proportion of the increase of expenditure is not due to any mal-administratdon of the affairs of the department, but is due in some cases to uncontrollable circumstances, and in others to increase cost of the service which were voted by this House, and concurred in by both sides. I shall also endeavour to show that I have done the best I could, and that the department is doing the b?st it can, to curtail expenditure. Hon. gentlemen opposite will, I think, acknowledge that my colleagues and I are alive to the very grave circumstances which at present exist, and that we are convinced that, if ever strict economy was necessary, it is necessary to-day. It is a well known fact that the expenditure of the Post Office Department has always increased from year to year. There has not been a year since Confederation in which there has not been a large increase in the expenditure of the Post Office Department over the preceding year, for the reason that the country is growing and that, with the growth of the country, it has been necessary to give to the people a more perfect and more extended postal service. If we look at the figures given in the Post Office Report, we will see, for instance, that in 1897 the expenditure of the Post Office Department was $3,789,478; whilst in 1912 it was $9,172,035, being an increase during those years of $5,382,557. Nobody, I believe, will say that that increase was not justified. But let me draw the attention of the committee to the fact that during all those years no reform which involved an increased expenditure was -introduced. Reforms were introduced in the service, I am free to admit, but in comparison with what had been done during the previous four or five years in the department, there were none of those changes or alterations in the service which would bring about any great increase in the expenditure of the department. There has been an increase, and a considerable increase in the expenditure of the department within the last four years, but I think I


MAEuH 22, 1916
[Stage Direction]
can account for almost every cent of that increased expenditure.
Let me take, for instance, rural mail delivery, which has been mentioned in this House several times. This service was inaugurated, I freely admit, by my hon. friend the member for Bouville (Mr. Lemieux), and he is entitled to due credit for it, and when it proved beneficial and advantageous to the country, it was our bounden duty to follow out the lines which were laid down by my predecessor, in order to carry the system to the perfect state in which it is to-day. The United States inaugurated a rural mail service in 1897, with 82 routes; to-day there are 44,373 rural mail routes in the United States, which cost the enormous sum of $49,625,000. Last summer I visited the United States to inquire into their system; I made a trip to some of the states for that purpose, and I am proud to say that I found that our service is in every respect superior to the system in the United States, and that it costs much less. In the United States every patron purchases his own box; therefore there is a diversity of boxes. Not only that, but he is permitted to place the box on any part of his farm, so that every time the mail carrier goes round, he has to get out of his vehicle to collect the postal matter in the box and when delivering letters to the boxes he has to do the same thing. Our boxes are so made that the carrier is not obliged to leave his vehicle. Another thing I found in the United States was that the man in a great many cases carried the mail either on the seat alongside of him or in the bottom of his vehicle, whereas in Canada the mail carrier is provided with a bag, and when he comes to the gate, without getting out of the vehicle, and therefore without danger of losing any mail matter, he simply takes it out of, the box and places it in the bag. Our boxes instead of being as they are in the United States furnished by each patron,
v4 p.m. according to the make which he thinks the best, are furnished by the Government at almost cost price.
Mr. MAECIL:: It is an open box?


Mr. CASGEAIN:: It closes, but it does
not lock. We have come to the conclusion, and the experts in the service have come to the conclusion, that it would delay the mails greatly if the man were obliged at every collection to unlock and relock the box.
We have in Canada at the present time,
3,337 rural mail routes, divided by provinces as follows:	Prince Edward Island,
168; Nova Scotia, 127; New Brunswick, 219; Quebec, 633; Ontario, 1,904; Manitoba, 86; Saskatchewan, 56; Alberta, 82; and British Columbia, 62; making the total 3,337. The number of rural mail routes established in each province during the last fiscal year, from 1st April, 1914, to 31st March, 1915, , was as follows: Prince Edward Island, 23; Nova Scotia, 27; New Brunswick, 47; Quebec, 233; Ontario, 292; Manitoba, 30; Saskatchewan, 11; Alberta, 21; British Columbia, 11; making a total of 695. From 1st April, 1915, to the end of February, 1916, the number of rural routes established was 425, divided as follows:	Prince Edward
Island, 11; Nova Scotia, 26; New Brunswick, 15; Quebec, 207; Ontario, 99; Manitoba, 16; Saskatchewan, 18; Alberta, 23; and British Columbia, 10.
The total increased cost to the department by the establishment of the rural routes within the past three years is $855,000, so that one of the items in the increased expenditure of the Post Office Department is accounted for by the establishment of rural mail routes which I think the committee will agree are for the general advantage of our people.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: What is the average increased cost as between the rural mail service in any one section, and the former mail service in the same district? The figures which the minister has given do not convey very much information to the committee.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I will try to give all
the information required as I go along. I cannot give my hon. friend the information he asks for just at this moment, but $855,000 was the increase in the cost in the three years over the old system.


Mr. SINCLAIE:: What is the increase
for the whole period?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: That is the increase
for the whole period. .


Mr. MACDONALD:: What was it last
year?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I will give the hon.
member that information later'.


Mr. TUEEIFF:: Can the minister give us some idea as to the system or grounds upon which those rural mail routes are established? According to the figures which he read, giving the number in the different provinces, Prince Edward Island, with a



small population, has pretty nearly as many routes as the province of Nova Scotia.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The routes are established by the officer in charge. When a demand is made for a rural mail service the officer visits the district and if 50 per cent of the inhabitants along the route ask for the establishment of a rural mail, it is given to them. Why there are almost as many in the province of Prince Edward Island as there are in Nova Scotia, I cannot say, except that in the province of Prince Edward Island more routes may have been asked for than in the province of Nova Scotia.


Charles Marcil: What is the principle
upon which the post offices are closed?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: When a rural mail
route is established in a locality my hon. friend will understand that the patrons of that route have no more use, or very little use, for'the post office.


Charles Marcil: The post office in New Richmond West has been there for sixty years.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That may he. I am having that matter looked into, and if there is any good reason why an exception to the rule should be made in this ease the post office will not he closed. I would, point out that the people interested in this particular post office now get their mail delivered right at their doors.


Charles Marcil: There is a Model school right along the post office, and the children used to take the letters home with them.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is a sentimental reason, to a great extent. As I pointed out, the people whose children used to go to the Model school and take their letters home from the post office can now get their letters right at their doors. The great question to consider is the general interest of the community. If it is to the advantage of the community that the post office should be kept open, why, then, it should be kept open. We are looking into this particular case, and if there is any substantial reason why that post office should not be closed it will not be closed-


Charles Marcil: An additional reason why it should not be closed is that under the old system the incoming and outgoing mail was handled on the same day. Under the new system there is a d,elay of twenty-four hours.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The people should have weighed all these considerations before they asked for a change. Nobody forced them to accept rural mail delivery. Of course, there are always some people who will be dissatisfied, but it is the general advantage of the community that must govern. In addition to the sum of $855,000 which I mentioned a little while ago, there is the sum of $305,000 for boxes purchased during those three years.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The patrons pay for the boxes.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: But the expenditure
has to be met. These boxes cost us $305,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: For the whole
period?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes. If you add these two sums together you have a total' of $1,160,000, which was expended on the extension of the rural mail service throughout Canada.


John Gillanders Turriff: The department gets the money back for those boxes.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: In the first place, we
have to buy the boxes. Then we sell them to the public practically at cost price. The price to the public just covers the cost of the box, and the cost of putting the boxes up, plus carrying charges.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The minister has given the cost of the boxes for a period of three years. If we had the figures for each year, we should then be able to study the comparative revenue and expenditure of the department. I think those figures might ,be useful to us.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will bring those
figures down.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And the amount the department has received from the sale of these boxes.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will bring that down too. Hon. gentlemen will, I hope, bear with me if I cannot give them all the details to-day. The department which I administer is a very large one, employing in the city of Ottawa alone 800 employees.
There are 19,000 postmasters and 23,000 employees. The department extends from one end of the Dominion to the other. I must admit that there are a great many details I have not mastered yet, but I am perfectly willing, and indeed it is my duty,

to give to the House all the iiaormation it asks for. But hon. gentlemen must be a little patient with me if I cannot give this information off-hand. In view of the absence of my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) my intention was not to finally dispose of this discussion to-day; so I shall have another opportunity to bring down the information that has been asked for.
Another advantage of our system over that of the United States'is that all contracts for the carrying of mail are let by public tender. The statement has been made in the House that under the regiqie of my immediate predecessor this system of letting contracts by public tender had been cast to the winds; but, I can find no warrant for such a statement. When I took charge of the department I found that the system of public tender had always been followed; and ever since I have been in office the rule has been followed of letting mail contracts by public tender.


Charles Marcil: Let me give an instance of how it was done in Carleton, in the county of Bonaventure. The man who had carried the mails there for years put in a tender a few days before his contract lapsed. Another man put in a tender at a higher figure, and this latter man was told that if he would reduce his price to the other man's figure he would get the contract. He did so and got the contract.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: If the minister will look at the files of his own department he will find that a return was laid on the table of the House in the first year after the Conservatives came to office, showing that over 500 mail contracts were cancelled during that first year. The return shows that a great many of the contracts which had not expired when this Government took office were cancelled when they came in, and new contracts given to their friends. There was an example in my own county, which has perhaps the largest mail contract in Nova Scotia. The contract was let in the first place by public tender, and the service was quite satisfactory. When this Government came in, the contract was cancelled, and turned over by them to one of their friends. The minister will find that on record in his own department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will look it up. I can tell my hon. friend that the rule of the department is that no contract of that kind is to be given out without public tender. The great fault found with us is that the prices are too low, and we are
127}	.
receiving complaints, not only from this side of the House, but from hon. members on the other side, that the amounts paid to the mail carriers are not sufficient. That is the general complaint throughout the country, and I have scores upon scores of letters in my office giving 'various reasons as to why the rate should be increased. The matter was discussed last year when the Estimates of the Post Office Department were before the House. One reason that is being continually given for an increase in the wages of the mail carriers is that the inauguration of the parcel post system has entailed more work upon them. The statement which has been made that the system of public tender for mail contracts has been cast to the winds, is not borne out by the facts.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the good of having a system of public tender if you do not award contracts to the lowest tenderer? The system of tendering is one thing, but the matter of abiding by the result of the tenders is another, and there are hundreds and thousands of cases-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Steady.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: -in Canada which hon. gentlemen on this side of the House could present, showing that contracts were not awarded to the lowest tenderer.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: Name them.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: We have given 500 such cases


Robert Rogers: Just one.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: With all deference to my hon. friend from Halifax, I think his statement is exaggerated. The rule is that none of those contracts shall be given out without public tenders being called for.


Charles Marcil: Is it not a fact that, after tenders have been received, an opportunity is given to the man who has the patronage in the county to inform a higher tenderer that, if he will reduce his tender so as to make it equal to the lowest tender, he will get the contract? I know of a number of such instances in my county. That is not fair.	*


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not agree with my hon. frienc( that that is not fair, because no one could complain that the public interest suffers if the lowest tender is $500 and an opportunity is given to some one

else to tender below that. My hon. friend says that is not fair. Well, I do not think so.


Charles Marcil: I did not say '"below," I said "the same figure."


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Then my hon. friend is wrong, because X know that in certain cases the contract has been 'let at a lower .figure.


Charles Marcil: Sometimes a dollar less.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If a tender has been sent in for $500, and information is received that the work can be done for $480, surely no one can complain that the public interest suffers, if, instead of the contract being given to some one at $500, it is given to some one else at $480.


Wilfrid Laurier: Political patronage is served.


Mr. KYTE:: If the Postmaster General will permit me, I think I can show him where the public interest does suffer. It has become generally known in certain districts of the province of Nova Scotia that it is practically useless for Liberals to tender for mail contracts, because the moment tenders are in and it is found that a Liberal is the lowest tenderer, the man having the patronage of the county corresponds with the Post Office Department recommending the name of a Conservative wiho will do the work for a few dollars less, or for the same figure, and he gets the contract. Therefore, I say that the public interest has suffered inasmuch as public confidence is lessened in the system of tender and contract as carried out by the Post Office Department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not think that the public interest has suffered; I think the Liberal party has suffered.


George William Kyte: The public interest has suffered inasmuch as you have ceased to get the competition of those who otherwise would put in tenders, because one portion [DOT]of the community refuses to put in tenders knowing that they will not receive a contract. Therefore in certain sections there is practically no competition with regard to the letting of contracts for the mail service.
Let me cite a case in my constituency. The mail service between Grandique Ferry, West Arichat, and Arichat had been performed for twenty years by a man named Parker for, I think, $480 a year. He died and his widow carried on the service for
[Mr. Casgrain.l
about a year and then tenders' were called for. Six tenders were received, the lowest being in the neighbourhood of $600. Five of the tenders were Conservatives; the lowest tenderer was a Liberal. The contract was not awarded. It was claimed by the department that the tenders were too high. I endeavoured to point out to the officials of the department that the work could not be carried on as cheaply as twenty years ago. The service called for the carriage of the mail twice a day between those post offices, and the lowest tenderer was then Risked to put in a tender for performing a trip a day only. He put in a tender for $345. A contract was then executed between him and the Post Office Department and he is carrying the mail now one trip each day for $345 a year. When the steamboat is not Tunning, it is necessary to have a trip made in the morning, and the department has engaged another man to make that trip, so that there are now two contractors instead of one. The department objected to giving the contract to this man Murray for $550 or $600 because they thought his tender was too high. They are, however, paying him $345 a year for making one trip a day, and they are paying another man for performing the morning trip whenever it is necessary. It is surely not in the public interest that the contract should be divided up in that way. I ven-. ture to say that the cost of carrying the mail between these offices under the present system will amount to very much more than the original lowest tender.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I would ask my hon. friend to draw my attention to that matter, and I will look into it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You will be doing nothing else for the next year if you look up such matters.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the minister going to pronounce judgment in regard to the matter?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am not going to pronounce judgment before I know the facts. I have heard only one side of the case; I shall have to hear the other side before I pronounce judgment.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I understood the minister to say a few minutes, ago that, if the public interest did not suffer, he felt quite justified in disregarding the system of tender and contract, that is, the question of who was the lowest tenderer or not, so long as some one got the contract at the lowest tender price.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That was not my argument. I said that no one could complain that the public interest suffered because one man did not get a contract at $500, if some one else got it at $480. I am not going to pronounce upon any abstruse question of policy in regard to the Post Office Department; I have enough to do to look into the concrete cases. I will examine into the case which my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) has brought to the attention of the House, and, after looking into it, I shall be able to say whether or not I approve what was done in the circumstances.


George William Kyte: What will be done if the minister does not approve?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: On further consideration, I will see what I shall do.


George William Kyte: There are two men doing one man's work now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not know about that. There have been statements made by hon. members opposite in connection with the Post Office Department which, with all due deference to my hon. friends, are, to say the least, exaggerated. I do not say that the statement made by my hon. friend from Richmond is exaggerated, but I think I should be given an opportunity of looking into the matter before pronouncing judgment upon it.


George William Kyte: Will the hon. gentleman say that if he finds a mistake has been made he will correct it?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will not say anything before having the facts before me. I am not going to give judgment on a state of facts of which I know nothing; and, as 1 say, I have enough to do with the concrete cases that come before me for decision, without attempting to deal with the abstract cases put before me by hon. gentlemen opposite.


Charles Marcil: I would submit to the hon. gentleman a concrete case, that of Napoleon LeBlane, at Carleton, Que., a man who gave faithful service, and who was recommended by the whole municipality. He was thrown aside and replaced! by another who did the work for some months and then threw up the job, with the result that the department had no carrier at all. LeBlane wras asked to take it again, which, after persuasion, he did. But soon after he was again thrown out and tne contract was given to a new man,
who does not do the work, but has it done by a young boy.
Mr. CASGRAIN-:- Is it badly done?


Charles Marcil: I do not know what the department says about that, but the people there say that this is not by any means the way to encourage faithful service. I would like to know what the department says about that case. In that connection I would ask if there is a Tule of the department that contracts below a certain minimum may be given without tender.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: As I am informed, the law permits any contract under $200 to be given without tender.


Charles Marcil: Is that done?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not always, but in many cases it is done. That has always been the rule.


Charles Marcil: Does not the -minister think that in the case of the postal service it would be in the public interest that, before making a change at any point in the constituency, the man who to as represented the constituency for fifteen years should -be given notice of an impending change? Does he not think that the department should not go to a man in another province to get information and advice that is not in the public interest? The Postmaster General has greatly displeased some of his own political friends by his treatment of the mayor of New Richmond, who was so dissatisfied that he wrote to the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald). Here is a staunch Conservative complaining of the way he is treated. In such cases, why should not the member for the constituency be consulted?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I think the question put to me is a perfectly fair one. I will look up the records and see if when the hon. gentleman's party was in power they consulted, the other party in these matters. If so, I will consult them.


Charles Marcil: I am not asking to be consulted. As to looking up the old records, the minister should try to improve on the actions of his predecessors. I believe that before bringing in a change like the one in New Richmond, if he toad asked advice he would have saved himself a lot of trouble.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Does the hon. Postmaster General say that he dispenses patronage in his department in the way out-

lined by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) in his recent speech?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have been considering that question for some time, but I have not quite decided on the course I shall take. When my hon. friends on the other side adopt the principles laid down by the Minister of Trade and Commerce it will be time for us, probably, to join hands with them.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Apparently, the Minister of Trade and Commerce did not on that occasion propound the pol'cy of the whole Government.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: A question with regard to that is put on the Order Paper and answered by the Prime Minister.


John Gillanders Turriff: It was not answered.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If it was not answered to the satisfaction of the hon. gentleman, let him put it again.
Let me mention another class of very important changes which accounts for an increase of $600,000 per annum in the expenditures of the department. These changes were made by Parliament in adopting certain statutes in 1912, 1913, and 1914. In 1912, by statute 2, George V, Chapter 14, salaries were considerably increased. For instance, the fourth class, with salaries of from $400 to $700 was abolished, and a minimum of $500 and a maximum of $900 were established. A senior class, with a minimum of $1,000 and a maximum of $1,500 was replaced by a first class with a minimum of $1,400 and a maximum of $1,800. Under the old Act the statutory increases were of $50 per annum, whilst by the new Act the increases in salaries up to $800 were fixed at $100 per annum. In 1913, an Act was passed under which all letter carriers, messengers and porters in city post offices were divided into five gradings. This Act raised the minimum from $1.75 a day to $2 a day, and gave the employees an increase of 25 cents a day each year, instead of every two years, until a maximum of $3 a day was reached. The maximum was attained in five years, instead of ten years as under the old Act. The' same Act gave an increase of $100 a year to all railway mail clerks who had been fifteen years or longer in the service. Still further, in 1914, an Act was passed which Taised the salaries of temporary third class clerks in city post offices and in the offices of post office inspectors,
	,
superintendents of railway mail service, and money order exchange offices, from $500 to $600 a year. A still greater change was made by this Act, that all increased in salary instead of being $50 a year, as under the old Act, should be $100 a year. The effect of these three Acts, as I have said, is to increase the expenditure of the Post Office Department by $600,000 a year. Surely it cannot be -said that this is the fault of this Administration, for these measures were submitted to this House and they were passed unanimously and without criticism. Let me read -some of the remarks made when these measures were before the House. For instance, on the first of the Bills referred to, that of 1912, the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lem-ieux) said:
I quite agree with the general lines of this Bill and I concur in the remarks just made. The cost of living is increasing immensely. I remember, although I am not very old myseir, that some years ago, a man could -bring up a family on a salary of $1,000 a year, but now-a -days it is practically impossible to do so living in a modest way. The railway mail clerks are most excellent officers of His Majesty's service, and as X have told the House on many occasions, they have to incur risks in the discharge of their duties which other civil servants do not incur. They are obliged to travel at all times of the year, during the heat of the summer and the cold of the winter. They have to take out insurance policies for the protection of their families, and they have to contend with difficulties not experienced -by other members of the Civil Service.
Again, on the 11th of March, 1912, the hon. member for Rouville said:
On general lines I commend this legislation. The Bill is similar to the one which was introduced last year and which was on the eve of receiving consideration from this House, but was unfortunately prevented from passing on account of the visit of the Black Rod. The increases and changes which are made are certainly most desirable.
And when the Act of 1914 was before the House, the hon. member for Rouville expressed himself ae follows:	[DOT]
I do not rise to offer any objection. On the contrary, I think the minister is to be commended in view of the high cost of living, high rents, and so on, for increasing the modest salaries of postal employees. Spme years ago, I took upon myself to give them an increase according to circumstances. I think the honourable gentleman is justified in giving to these faithful employees the same benefits that other classes of employees are receiving. I do not think the country would begrudge the postal employees even a little bigger raise.
That is the way these Bills were received by the House, and they passed without any opposition whatever. So that, at least for this $600,000 increase, this Government and

the department over which I now preside are certainly not any more responsible than the whole House.
In 1914 an important change was made in the railway mail service. For a long time the railway companies of Canada had been complaining that they were not being adequately paid for the services which they were rendering. They pointed out that in the United States the rates which the railway companies received for carrying the *mails were far greater than the rates that the companies in Canada were receiving. At that time, up to the month of February, 1914, the rates paid to the railway companies were so much a track mile. For instance, for carrying mails between Sarnia and 'Levis, a distance of about 700 miles, they were paid $160 a year per track mile. But in 1914 a new system was inaugurated, and new rates were settled upon between the railways and the department. Instead of paying the railway companies so much per track mile, they are paid 16 cents per car mile for hauling a full postal car, 9 cents per car mile for hauling a car half express and half mail, 4 cents per car mile for baggage cars, when the space occupied does not exceed 15 feet, 9 cents from 16 to ,30 feet, and 16 cents when the car is filled. The difference in the expenditure of the department as a result of this change i3 .approximately $1,200,000.
i Mr. TURRIFF:	The department did
that.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Certainly, the department did that with the concurrence of my hon. friends on the other side. I have before me Hansard of February 2, 1914, in which there appears the following question ,by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux):
1.	What progress has been made towards the establishment of parcel post?
2.	Have the rates been fixed? If so, what are they?
3.	What additional compensation, if any, is to be paid to the railway companies?
For the purpose of this argument, the two first questions are not interesting, but let me read the answer which was given by my predecessor to the third question, which has relation to the compensation paid to the railway companies. Here it is:
3. The department at the same time has succeeded in settling the question of the transportation of parcel post with the railway companies, and the other long outstanding and difficult question of the general increase, over which the railway companies have been so keen and insistent for a number of years. The demand
of the railway companies in this respect was for an increase of about $4,000,000, and moreover, for compensation in connection with parcel post, but the whole matter has been settled by the adoption of a car mile instead of a track mile basis, and the Accounting branch of the Post Office Department estimates that this increase will he about $786,000 for 1914-15. No special or additional compensation will be paid to the railway companies on account of parcel post.
The hon. member for Rouville and those who had any knowledge of what was going on in the Post Office Department well knew that for a long time the railway companies had insisted that' the rates which were being paid to them were inadequate for the services that they were giving to the country. If a railway company is working for the Government, I do not see why it should be paid less than it is paid by a company or individual. If hon. gentlemen will look at the rates paid by the United States, they will see that the rate which we are now paying is not extravagant. It is a rate which was agreed upon by the House, because after this agreement had been entered into between the railway companies and the Government, the Estimates, if I mistake not, were twice brought down to the House, and this railway mail service was agreed to at the new rates which had been arrived at by agreement between the department and the railway companies.


John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend the Postmaster General has proved that for many years the railway companies had been asking the Post Office Department for increased remuneration for carrying the mails, and that the late Government refused to give them this increase. My hon friend's department within the last two or three yeare has granted the increase demanded by the railway companies. My hon, friend says that there is no reason why these railway companies should work for the Government for less than they work for other people. He should bear in mind the fact that the railway companies were more than half built by the money of the people of Canada, and that they were previously receiving a fairly remunerative rate. ' But, in order to stand in with their friends the railways, the department over which my hon. friend now presides gave, under his predecessor, this big increase by which we are now paying about $1,200,000 more per annum, than we were paying before. My hon. friend says also that this increase

is not on account of the establishment of a parcel post system;' that it has relation to the carrying of mail matter other than parcels. I do not think my hon. friend is correct when he tries to put the responsibility generally on the House; the responsibility belongs to the Post Office Department, over which my hon. friend now presides. In that one matter, they have increased the cost to the country by $1,200,000 per annum. It is of no use for my hon. friend to try to evade the responsibility; the department made the arrangement, and now they -have to live up to it, an arrangement that the railways demanded for many years, and that they were not able to get when hon. gentlemen on this side of the House were running the department.
Mr. EDWARDS; And which they got without any opposition from hon. gentlemen opposite when they did get it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My hon. friend says
that the railway companies have been constructed largely with the moneys of the people of this country, and that, as they received -subsidies, they should carry the mails for a lesser sum than they would otherwise get. I do not -agree with my hon. friend on that point. The subsidies were given for the construction of the railways, and for the services which these companies should perform to the general advantage of the country. I do not think -that it entered into the mind of any one, when these subsidies were being voted by the House, and I do not -think that it is now the opinion of this country, that because for certain -reasons of public policy the railway companies received subsidies, they should be required to carry mail, freight or anything el-se for the Government of Canada at a less price than they would receive from an individual o-r a corporation. Of course, that is a matter in relation to which I am in the judgment of the House, but that is my opinion, and I think that it is shared by the country at large. I am not trying to shirk -any responsibility. If I had had the administration of the department at the time these representations were made, I should have done exactly what my predecessor di-d, I should have come down to the House, and finding, after giving the House -this information, no criticism, I should have been entitled to say that that was at least an implied ratification of the agreement which had been entered into between the Government and the different railway companies.
CMr. Turriff.]


Charles Marcil: Are all these railway
companies paid for carrying mails?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I believe there are some companies, biit very few, upon which the condition was imposed that, for the payment of subsidies, they would have to carry the mails either for nothing or for reduced rates.


Wilfrid Laurier: That condition has been imposed under all the later Subsidy Acts.
Mr. MARCIL; Does the minister think it fair that a company like the Quebec and Oriental, which carries the mail in my constituency, should receive no payment for carrying the mails?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Does the hon. member think so?	[DOT]


Charles Marcil: I think the railway should be paid for the service performed. If it -carries the mails it ought to be paid for it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am glad to hear my hon. friend say that. I would not like to give that decision, because, as my hon. friend knows, I am somewhat interested in the railway. I am glad to hear my hon. friend say that, and probably it will lead to an apparent injustice being remedied.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister think it is a fair way in which to treat the Quebec and Oriental? The man now operating the road is giving a good mail service, and getting nothing for the service he renders.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The man cannot be said- to be operating the railway, it is operated by the bondholders. I thank my hon. friend for calling attention to what is seemingly an injustice, which probably should be remedied.


John Gillanders Turriff: Do I understand the
minister to say that when hon. members on this side of the House were running the Post Office Department and made good, hard, economical bargains with the railway -companies for carrying the mails, and secured a surplus at the end of each year in the Post Office Department, they were doing wrong, and that it was not the proper way in which to conduct the business of the department, and that the policy adopted by his predecessor, which is now being carried out by himself, is the proper way to run the post office business of toe country, resulting, as it does, in annual deficits of millions?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The answer is that I do not think it was fair or just to the railway companies to say that the rates which were prevailing at that time should prevail in the future. I think it was time for a change; that is my decided opinion. I repeat that I myself would have done precisely what my predecessor did, and I have no doubt that our predecessor, the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) would have been obliged to make the change himself, because anybody who knows of tire services which are rendered to the country by the railways in this regard, and the prices which railway companies get in other countries for the same service, would have come to the same conclusion as my predecessor and the Government did-for, of course, it was a matter for Government decision-that it was not fair to continue upon the old system, and that new rates ought to be substituted.


George William Kyte: Does this apply to all railway companies carrying mails in Canada?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No. It does not apply to all the railway companies, by reason of the terms of the subsidies given in some cases.


George William Kyte: Would the minister be able to tell us the companies to which the increase applies?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not all of them.


George William Kyte: It applies to the large railway companies, of course?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What I am saying now applies to the large railway companies, ttie Canadian Pacific railway, the Grand Trunk, the Canadian Northern railway, and, the Grand Trunk Pacific.


George William Kyte: And the smaller railway companies that are not sufficiently influential to succeed in getting an increase in subsidy are not getting it? I know a company in my county that is being paid two cents a mile for carrying the mails, and that is what they have been paid for the last fifteen years. They received their subsidy under exactly the same conditions as some of the other railway companies received theirs, although these other companies have been granted an increased subsidy.


John Gillanders Turriff: They must be Liberals.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have never received a complaint from that company, so that there must be something in the agreement between the Government and the company
which renders the present rate apparently just and equitable to the company itself; because, as the hon. member must know, if they really had a claim against the Government they would have put it in. I have been in the department now for al-ipost a year and a half, and I have received no complaint or claim from that company. Therefore, I think I may safely say that they really have no claim, for if they had they would certainly have made it on the department.


George William Kyte: I know that when the late Government was in office they did apply for an increase in the annual subsidy for carrying the mails, and they were told that, under the terms on which they received their received their subsidy, they were obliged to carry the mails at the rate fixed by the department. But when the Govern undertook to revise the rate for other companies, they ought to have seen that the increase applied fairly to all railway companies doing business in Canada.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: dt results from what my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) says, that he does not quite agree with the ho'n. member from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) who seems to think that the present agreement between the department and the railways is a bad agreement. The hon. member for Richmond, I understand, says that we ought to pay the increased rate to this railway company. I would ask him to name the railway company.


George William Kyte: I do not see why any railway company should be the recipient of special privileges from this Government. If it is to be the policy of the department that a certain rate be paid for carrying the mails, that rate should be made applicable to all the railway companies carrying mails.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: So if I come down next year with an increase in the mail subsidy, my hon. friend will be satisfied, if this increase applies to his own railway company?
, Mr. KYTE:	The hon. .gentleman got in
wrong when he gave an increase; but, having undertaken to pay larger rates, there is no reason why he should discriminate in favour of the larger companies as against the smaller.


John Gillanders Turriff: If the price paid to the railway company in the county of my hon. friend is a proper price, then the right way for my hon. friend the Postmaster Genera]

to get out of the difficulty is to make that a standard price and bring the others down to it. Then he would not have such a large deficit, and all railways would be on the same terms.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I shall inquire very
particularly into the case mentioned by the hon. member for Richmond, and I am sure that I will be able to give some very good reason to the committee why this special rate is in force there.


George William Kyte: It is the Cape Breton Railway Company.	.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister explain the method of dealing with the Government railway?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Absolutely the same rate is paid to the Government railway as to the company railway.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You increased the
rate to them?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Oh, yes. We pay the Government railway the same rate as we pay to the ordinary railways of the country. The railway companies have not by any means accepted this agreement as one which is to last forever; they have never accepted the rates which were granted to them in February, 1914, as adequate and sufficient; and they continually point out to us that in the United States the railways, instead of getting 16 cents per mile for hauling a postal car, receive 20 cents a mile. So it seems to me that we have cause to say that the agreement that we came to with the railway companies was an equitable and a just agreement, and that it was incumbent upon the Government, in all justness and fairness, to come to the agreement which was arranged in February, 1914.


George William Kyte: But the minister is aware
that no subsidies were paid to railway companies in the United States.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not think it makes much difference.


George William Kyte: The railways in the United States have been built exclusively by private capital. There may be one or two-


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: A great many.


George William Kyte: -there may be one or two transcontinental railways that have received aid. Thus, the railways in the United States are in an entirely different position from our railways, which have received large subsidies. I.ask the Postmaster Gen-

eral if he will be good enough, when he goes into Supply again, to bring down a list of railway companies that received increased subsidies for carrying the mails.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not admit, as I
said before, that, because the railway companies of this country receive subsidies from the Government, they should do the work for the Government at cheaper rates than they charge ordinary individuals. My view may not meet with the approval of my hon. friend, but I think it will meet with the approval of a great many men, not only on this side of the House, but on the other side. The subsidies were granted to the railway companies for a purpose, and it never entered the minds of those who were at the head of affairs at the time that the railway companies should be called upon to transport freight or mail, or to render any other service to the Government, at rates other than those charged to individuals or companies. That is a matter of difference between my hon. friend and myself, but that is the position I take.


George William Kyte: The Postmaster General did not grant the increase to the railway Companies upon the merits of the service they were performing. He stated that the increase was granted because the railway companies in the United States were getting more money for their service.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, no.


George William Kyte: That was the minister's argument. That being the case, I pointed out that he should have taken into account the fact that the railways in the United States were built by private capital, and not with the aid of Government subsidies.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I must have expressed myself wrongly if my hon. friend gathered that meaning from my remarks. That was not what I meant to say, at all events. What I intended to say was, that I considered it fair and equitable that the Government should pay these increased rates to the railway companies, and I pointed out as a quasi justification, or as a reason why we should pay the increased rates, that in the United States a larger sum was paid to the railway companies. But the determining cause was not what was done in the United States, but purely the justice of the claim which the railway companies made.


George William Kyte: We do not differ very much.


William Humphrey Bennett: Have the railway companies given the minister any estimate

of the loss they have sustained through the inauguration of the parcel post? ,


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No; we know that the railway companies have lost considerably through the establishment of the parcel post, but we have no figures.
Then, the expansion of cities has been responsible for a considerable
5pm increase in the service. Take for instance, Montreal, Quebec, and Toronto:	as these cities increase
-I speak more particularly just now of Montreal and Quebec-the service has to be increased; the employees, especially letter carriers, have to be increased. We are continually asked for more letter carriers, and we have to establish new routes for them. This of course adds to the number of employees and to the expenditure of the department, but I do not know how I can refuse to accede to the demands when a city extends its limits, and the conditions required by the department are conformed to. I do not see any reason why I should refuse letter carriers to the inhabitants of a city who reside in the outskirts or in the suburbs which had not previously formed part of the city. More than that, in 1912-13 new letter carrier deliveries were established in Strathcona, Sault Ste. Marie, Galt, Amherst, Prince Albert, Belleville and Medicine Hat, and the increase under this head is $92,000. The rule is that when a city attains a certain population-


John Gillanders Turriff: How much?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: A letter carrier service is inaugurated in a city when it attains a population of 12,000 and the post office yields a revenue of $20,000.
Mr. TURRIFF. Have cities to comply with both conditions?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


John Gillanders Turriff: Some of the places the
minister has named cannot comply with them.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That may be by reason of changes that have come about recently. As far as possible, we enforce that rule.


Charles Marcil: What happens when a
population decreases?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My hon. friend understands the great difficulty there would be in depriving a city of the letter carrier delivery. We would have to be sure that the decrease was not temporary. It would be a most difficult task to establish the
fact that the decrease was such that the letter carrier delivery which had been in force should be taken away, thus depriving the people of that city of a considerable advantage.
There is also the change in post offices and the substitution of city post offices for revenue post offices. Hon. gentlemen will bear in mind that in the city post offices, and the semi-staff post offices, so much salary is paid to the postmaster and to the employees, whilst in the revenue post offices, the salaries are paid by commission upon the revenues as they come in. When a city attains a certain revenue, then it is changed from a revenue office to a semi-staffed office. From a consideration of the subject, I have come to the conclusion that a great .many offices in which the postmaster and the employees are now paid by commission, could be made semi-staff offices and a larger amount of revenue could thus be derived; because, I find that, in numerous instances, the postmasters are paid too large a remuneration for the importance of the office or of the duties they perform. If, instead of paying them by commission, I gave them a stated salary which would be less than the commission they are now receiving, but which would be adequate for the services they render to the public, I am of opinion that I would be able to increase the revenues of the post office. In 1914, the cities of Guelph, New Westminster, Moosejaw, and Saskatoon were made city post offices, and this means that the salaries of the postmasters and employees of these cities are paid out of money which is appropriated each year in the Estimates. It does not make much difference as to the business, in general, of the department, but it makes this difference, that we have to vote more in the Estimates than we would otherwise vote, because we pay the salaries from the amount voted in the Estimates, whilst if they remained revenue offices the postmasters and employees would be paid out of the revenues of the office. This change has brought about an increase of $163,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: The- minister has suggested that if this change were made with regard to other post offices, a larger'revenue would accrue to the department. Why does the minister not make the change then?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am going to make it. When my hon. friend is Postmaster General-a pleasure which I wish him sincerely

-he will find that these things cannot be done in a day.


John Gillanders Turriff: That will be in about a year and a half.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: These changes cannot be brought about without thorough consideration. This is one of the reforms I am endeavouring to bring about, in order to reduce the expenditure and increase the revenue of the department. I have spoken about extraordinary increases, and when I say extraordinary increases I mean increases due to' extraordinary causes, such as the establishment of the rural mail system, the purchase of boxes, agreements with the railway companies, and the statutes to which I have referred, and which account for a very large yearly increase in the expenditure of the department. Every year has brought an increased expenditure in the Post Office Department, as hon. gentlemen will see by referring to the report.	.
Mr. MiARCIL:	Has there been any increase in the salaries of country postmasters?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not recently.


Charles Marcil: When was the last increase?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: About three or four
years ago.


Charles Marcil: Under the present regime?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Charles Marcil: What is the minimum
salary now?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: $50. It is estimated
that during the three years prior to 1912, there was an average yearly increase in the expenditures of the Post Office Department of 11 '65 per cent. Now, the expenditure for 1912, as shown by the report, is $9,172,035; 11-65 per cent Of that is $1,068,544; so in order to get the normal increase over $9,172,035, during a period of three years, we should have to multiply $1,068,544 by three; that gives us $3,205,000, in round figures. My argument is this: there are certain increases due to extraordinary causes,, but, apart altogether from those causes, the expenditure of the department increases year by year from ordinary causes, by 11-65 per cent. We are therefore entitled to add $3,205,000 to $9,172,035, and that gives us the expenditure which was made necessary by the expansion of the service throughout the country.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There has been no
increase in population during the last few years to warrant that increase.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There has been some
increase in population; if not last year, in the year previous. But if there had not been any increase in population, that would not have avoided the necessity for extending the postal service. For instance, the Transcontinental railway is opening up new country in the northwest, and in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec; the Canadian Northern is also running through new territory, and there was a public clamour for a postal service in these new districts. That accounts for a considerable increase in the expenditure.


Charles Marcil: I suppose the usual procedure, when a post office is wanted, is by petitioning the department. When the department is going to open up a new post office, does it rely upon the patronage distributor for the district?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No. It relies upon the report of the inspector. In every case an inspector is sent to see whether a new post office, is necessary in the public interest, and unless he reports favourably the post office is not opened, notwithstanding any pressure that might be brought to bear by the patronage committee.


Mr GLASS:: It is generally conceded
that rural mail delivery has been a great boon to the districts in which it has been established. Would the minister give us some idea of the cost of rural mail delivery as compared with the old system of post offices.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I gave that at the beginning of my remarks. For the three years the increased cost of the rural mail service was $855,000.


George William Kyte: Where a post office is already established and another one is asked for, what is the policy of the department with Tegard to the distance that should be between the two? Is there any limit?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That depends upon the population and the revenue, but, generally speaking, the distance between two post offices must be at least two miles. It depends, of course, upon the density of the population and the needs of the particular place.


Charles Marcil: Would three miles be considered a fair distance?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes, under ordinary circumstances, but the probable revenue and the density of the population would have to be taken into account.


Charles Marcil: Where the population is sparse and there would be little revenue, I suppose the people would get no service at all? I have a letter here from Mr. A. W. Richardson, in which he says that a petition was signed by twenty-five people in his district for a post office. The petition has not been granted, although two othe-offices- have been opened in the same township. He gives the names of the parties.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Has it been sent to the department?


Charles Marcil: It has been sent to me.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What is the date of it?


Charles Marcil: March 14, 1916.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If the department has received it, my attention has not been called to it.


Charles Marcil: This man says that two other offices have been opened in the same township. The parish priest at St. Alphonse de Caplan, which is the parish in the rear of the Baie des Chaleurs in the county of Bonaventure, has sent me a copy of a plan showing that in the old days the parish used to be served from Caplan River station.
There is now no longer any postal station at Caplan river; the only station is at St. Charles de Caplan church. The new road leading to St. Alphonse de Caplan church is built from the church in St. Charles de Caplan. The old road, has been practically abandoned, very few persons using it because the new one is now available, and there is no station at Caplan river. This gentleman, the Rev. Mr. Belzile, applied to have the service changed from Caplan river to St. Charles de Caplan church, the place where most of the business is done, and wihere the people congregate, but that would entail a small additional cost per annum.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have to keep down the expenditure.


Charles Marcil: I understand there are two or three offices there, and in that case what is the use of going to Caplan river, where there is no longer any station, and where the train does not stop any more, although & Tailway passes it? The service which is given is very unsatisfactory.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There is something in what my hon. friend says. The circumstances have changed, and, it is a question which must and which will receive the attention of the department.
A great deal has been said about the increase in the number of the employees in the outside service of the department.
I am happy to be able to say, from an answer brought down to-day to a question put by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) that, since I came into the department in 1914, up to the present day, I have tried to keep down the expenditure of the department as much as I can, and especially the number of the employees, consistent with the public service; and in all the following cities except one-Montreal, Toronto, .Quebec, Winnipeg, Vancouver Victoria, Three Rivers, Sherbrooke, St. John, and Halifax-I have been able to reduce vthe number of employees. In 1914 when I came into office, the total number of employees was 3,700, while the total now is 3, 640, a decrease of 63, notwithstanding that the woric has not decreased, and notwithstanding that the revenues have been increasing in all these offices, so that in normal times, not in times of stress like the present, there would be a very necessary increase in the number of the employees. That decrease is an evidence, I take it, of the desire on the part of the department to keep the expenditure down as much as possible and to decrease the number of employees .so far as is consistent with the public service.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In order to appreciate the importance of the point urged by the minister in regard to the decrease, would he give us succinctly the increase in the previous two years?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I could not give that offhand; I think that will appear by the answer to the question put by my hon. friend from Rouville.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The increase is very much greater than the decrease.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will call my hon.
friend's attention to the fact that at that time the revenue of the Post Office Department was buoyant and that the business was really increasing.
. Mr. MACDONALD:	The Government
knew that the war was coming on, and should have reduced the expenditure.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not think the emergency loomed quite so large as that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You were not so sure about it.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: The fact that a war
was foreseen would not put the Government under the obligation of decreasing the number of employees.


John Gillanders Turriff: Could the minister state the number of employees in these city post offices in 1911?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That information was given the other day in answer to a question put by the hon. member for Rouville. The figures are on Hansard.


John Gillanders Turriff: In regard to the slight
decrease during the last year and a half since my hon. friend has been Postmaster General, I may say that in some of the cities that'he has mentioned, the population is less to-day by tens of thousands than it was two or three years ago, and therefore not nearly so many officials should be necessary either for handling or for delivering the mail.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There are not so many as there were. I do not, of course, wish to intimate to the committee by anything that I have said that I condemn the methods followed by my predecessor in office.


John Gillanders Turriff: We take that for granted.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: But I really believe that if he were in office now, he would have done exactly what I have done.


Mr. GRAHAM:: We do not believe it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Well, I am surprised at my hon. friend's lack of faith. While I am on this subject of the decrease in the number of employees, I wish to call especial attention to the number of employees in the post office in the city of Montreal. Montreal has the largest post office in the Dominion and the largest number of employees in its post office. My hon. friend from Rouville was not quite correct in the figures which he gave to the House the other day. The number of employees in the Montreal post office in 1911 was 800; in October, 1914, the number was 1,334, and the number now is 1,248, so that hon. members will see that there has been an honest endeavour to keep down the expenditure. While it is true-.that there are some cities in the Dominion in which the population has decreased, that is not true of Montreal where the population has gone on increasing and where the

work of the Post Office Department has gone on increasing year after year.


John Gillanders Turriff: How much of that reduction in the number of employees in the Montreal post office is due to enlistment?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That information was brought down the other day in an answer. I think the number is about thirty.


Charles Marcil: Do these figures apply to the head office in Montreal or to the whole city.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: To the whole city.


George William Kyte: Is it not true that the Postmaster General has increased the number of inspectoral districts during the past two years?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I believe the year before I came into office there were one or two new ones.


George William Kyte: One at Sherbrooke and one at Three Rivers.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not at Three Rivers.
An assistant performs that duty at Three Rivers, because there is no inspectoral district there.


George William Kyte: How many new inspectoral districts have been established since this Government came into office?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Two or three, as I am informed, but I will get the exact information.


George William Kyte: In the province of Quebec?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: One in the province of Quebec.


George William Kyte: Would they not be calculated to relieve some of the officials in Montreal of some of their duties?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Certainly not.


George William Kyte: I cannot understand why it is necessary to appoint new officials if they do not relieve the congestion somewhere.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The number of employees in the inspector's branch in the city of Montreal compared with the number of other employees is very small comparatively, and I really believe that the question which my hon. friend has put to me is due to the fact that he has not had the experience of administering this department for -any time at all, because, if he had, he would see that the question does not at all follow from the existing condi-

tions. During 1915, five new postal stations were opened in Montreal occasioning the employment of twenty-six employees, and ten new letter carriers' walks were opened necessitating the employment of ten new letter carriers. During the progress of the war four employees have been assigned the special duty of watching the staff entrance doors. Owing to the despatch of mail for the Canadian (Expeditionary Force in Europe, it was necessary to assign 16 additional employees to this particular work. For censorship work, three additional employees were required, and for affixing stamps in connection with military mails, one additional man was needed. And, notwithstanding this, instead of 60 new appointments being made, the staff has been decreased, and men who were at other work in the post office have been assigned to the particular branches of work I have just mentioned. Therefore, I should be credited with a decrease in the number of employees in the Montreal post office, not of 83 or 84, but of 146. Further, it might be mentioned that the revenue of the Montreal post office in 1911 was $1,152,177, whereas for the year ending 31st March, 1915, it amounted to $1,590,395.
f


Charles Marcil: Does that include war tax?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, the war tax did not come into force until April, 1915. The increase in revenue, it will be seen, was 40 per cent. At the present time, the revenue of the Montreal post office is increasing rapidly, as will be seen by the following figures:
Revenue for January,	1915	
$118,417Revenue for January,	1916	
170,367Increase	
$58,000


Charles Marcil: That includes war tax?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes. In material
handled, there were the following increases in January, 1916, as compared with January,
Letters	 10,412
Printed matter	 33,729
Parcel post	 10,254
During the month of January, 1916, 36,182 more articles were registered at the Montreal post office than for the month of January, 1915. Comparing the month of February, 1916, with February, 1915, this is the result:
February, February, Increase
1915.	1916.	for 1916.Lbs.	Lbs.	Lbs.Letters	15,140	37,302	22,142Printed matter...	64,594	145,558	81,502Parcel post. ..	4,860	26,651	15,791The registered	matter	in transit	in these
months respectively was as follows:
Articles.
February, 1915	 163,042
February, 1916	 176,905
Increase 1916 over 1915.. ..	13,863
So it will be seen that post office business in the city of Montreal is increasing by leaps and bounds. I quote Montreal only as an example of whafc takes place in eight-tenths of the post offices throughout the country. It is clearly impossible to call a halt immediately upon the increased expenditure for the service; it would not be reasonable and it. would not be consistent with my duty as Postmaster General.


Charles Marcil: Would the Postmaster
General explain with regard to the various branch post offices in Montreal, especially the famous Carslake purchase? Has that change increased or lowered the expenditure?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That purchase has
nothing to do with post office administration; it was made by the Public Works Department.


Charles Marcil: What was the object of it?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There is so much congestion in the post office in Montreal that not only was it necessary to acquire the new premises-and, let me say, the price paid has nothing to do with what I am discussing-but it was necessary to acquire by lease new premises in Craig'street. Hon. members have no idea of the tremendous amount of mail matter going through the post office in Montreal. It has been increased by the war, and it is increasing by the exigencies of business. If hon. gentlemen were to go into the Montreal post office, either when the British mails are arriving or when they are being despatched, they would see that it will be absolutely necessary, within a very short time, either to enlarge the present building-I do not know how, perhaps by adding a story to it-or by purchasing other premises. Before we leased the building in Craig street work was being performed in the porch outside, where the vehicles are stationed, because there was no room in the building.


Charles Marcil: Has the building of these new branch offices relieved the congestion?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes, these branch offices have greatly relieved the congestion; and I think everybody will admit that they have been a great boon to the people of Montreal.


Charles Marcil: Are the mails sent direct to the substations?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, the mails go to the central post office and are despatched thence to the different sub-offices. I may take this occasion to say that we have in Montreal excellent officers; I am informed that the best-administered post office in the whole of the Dominion of Canada is the office at Montreal. I do not say this as indicating that the other offices are not well administered, but the post office at Montreal, so far as we know, is a model post office. The postmaster is Mr. Bergeron, formerly member for Beauharnois, well known to members of this House, and the superintendent is Mr. Gaboury, a most efficient officer.


Charles Marcil: How many sub-offices are there?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Five have been opened within the last two years.


Charles Marcil: There is one newly erected on St. Catharine street west. I have never seen a crowd there since it was opened.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There need not be a crowd in a post office to show that work is being done.


Charles Marcil: There is another at University street which is always crowded- one can hardly get into it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There are more people there than at the other office to which the hon. gentleman has referred. So far as I know, the opening of the sub-office in St. Catharine street west was a necessary convenience for that part of the city.


John Gillanders Turriff: Before the hon. minister takes up another part of his subject, I would like to revert for a moment to the subject of rural mail delivery, as I shall not be here this evening. Are rural mail carriers all supposed, to be able to read?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes, they must read and write. How could they deliver the mails otherwise?


John Gillanders Turriff: Unfortunately, there are some who cannot read. I know of a case of a man who has a contract for rural mail delivery and who cannot read.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My attention has not been called to a case of that kind. Of course, if complaint of such a case were made, the man would have to give up his contract or have the mails delivered on the responsibility of himself and his bondsmen, so that there might be no interruption in the	service,	and no
failure to	give good service.
The rule is that a rural mail carrier must be able to read, otherwise he would not be able to deliver the mail.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Is it absolutely necessary that the man who obtains the contract shall do the work?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, it is not absolutely necessary, but the contract is performed on his responsibility and on the responsibility of his bondsmen. If the service is not what it should be he is liable to lose his contract, and if there is any loss to the department, or to the country, his bondsmen are liable for the amount of the loss.


Mr. McCREA:: The position of postmaster at the city of Sherbrooke has been vacant for over two years. If we are to infer from that that a postmaster there would he unnecessary, and simply a figurehead, then that is one way of economizing. A good many friends of the Postmaster General are seeking this position, and if they do not get it there will be trouble. I think that the people of Sherbrooke are entitled to know why a postmaster has not been appointed, whether there is going to be one, and if so, when?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is a question
which is somewhat difficult to answer. I gave an answer yesterday in this connection to a question put by my hon. friend. I desire to say, first, that the chief clerk in the post office at Sherbrooke is a competent person. Secondly, I shall be frank with the committee, as I always am

amongst the applicants for this position is a gentleman who is at the front, and under the present circumstances it has not been deemed necessary in the public interest to appoint a postmaster. If the department had decided to appoint the applicant who is at the front, under the old rule which existed until November, 1915, We would have had to pay his salary as postmaster besides giving him his pay as an officer in

the militia. Not having appointed him a postmaster, we are, for the present at least, economizing to that extent.
Mr. MeCREA: When the minister says that one of the applicants for this position is a man who is at the front, does he mean that this man is to get the appointment? One of the applicants is outspoken on the subject; he says that he has the promise of the minister that he is to be the postmaster. He is probably in the front rank of the applicants, but he is not at the front so far as the war is concerned. He has been waiting for some two years now, and I think it is time he knew whether or not he is to get the position.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Nobody has my promise that he will be appointed postmaster in Sherbrooke.


Francis N. McCrea: The Government have spent a large amount of money for building a post office at East Angus. The contractor has finished his work, there is a caretaker in charge, and the place is kept heated, but the post office has not been transferred, and there is no postmaster. Is this building going to be occupied, or was it built for ornament?
Mr. 'CASGRAIN: I am surprised at that, if the post office is really ready. We take possession only when the Department of Public Works notifies the Post Office Department that everything is ready for occupation. Then we are responsible, not for the- building itself, but for the post office which is established in it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend says that among the numerous applications for the position of postmaster at Sherbrooke there is one from a man who is at the front. My hon. friend does not say that he has any intention of appointing that gentleman, although he is put forward as a very specious excuse why nothing should be done. If the minister will go so far as to say that the man at the front is to get the appointment, the House and the country would say that, on general principles, the Postmaster General was doing a very proper thing. But my hon. friend was very careful not to say that; consequently the fadt that one of the applicants is at the front has no relation whatever to the reason why the Postmaster General is not filling the position. The minister said he was going to be very frank, but he was not half as frank as he would like the House to believe
128 .
he was. If this man is not to be appointed, my hon. friend hould fill the position of postmaster in an important city like Sherbrooke. Since the Postmaster General has told us that he has given no assurance to any one in the matter of an appointment to this position, I think he should tell us whether he intends to appoint this gentleman who is fighting in France.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am sorry that I cannot give my hon. friend an answer to that question. I am not personally acquainted with this gentleman, and I think that before I appoint him I should know more about him. So far as I know, the public interest has not suffered. It may be-if the member for Sherbrooke presses the question-that we shall have to decrease the number of employees in that post office in a very notable way. I am not sure as to that, but I hope the hon. member for Pictou will not press the question further.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I do not want to
embarrass my hon. friend; I think we all appreciate the position he is in. Can he tell the committee whether any one at the front had anything to do with the long delay in filling the vacancy in the postmastership in the city of Halifax?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The position is filled
now; why it was not filled before, I am at a loss to know.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The position was vacant, I think, for about two years. Probably three years ago the then postmaster at Halifax, who had been in office for quite a number of years, was requested to resign. It was urged that on account of the introduction of rural mail service, it was necessary to have a younger and more aggressive man. The postmaster at that time, Mr. Blackadar, was induced to resign, and was superannuated. About a year afterwards an appointment was made; that appointee died, and the vacancy has been existing now for considerably over a year.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: An appointment has
been made.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 

he ever inquired of the Prime Minister why the vacancy has existed so long?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did he know there was a vacancy for that time?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Mr.   MAJCLEAN@: Surely if he knew there was a vacancy he ought to have some answer as to why it was so long unfilled. 1


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My horn, friend is trying to embarrass me. The question for me is whether or not the public interest suffered. I do not think At did. There may have been reasons which I do not know of for recommending the appointment of a successor to this gentleman.


Mr. BURNHAM:: Was there not an acting postmaster?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Oh, yes.


John Hampden Burnham: Then it was not vacant.


George Perry Graham: How did they fill it?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I supose the postmaster aff Halifax was paid $2,500 or $3,000 a year. The department has been able to get along without a postmaster for three or four years and have saved that annual salary in the meanwhile, probably $10,000. The Postmaster General is professing great anxiety to curtail the expenditure. I ask him why he did not appoint a postmaster, or why did he not appoint the present assistant postmaster and thus save one salary as no addition to the service would then be required. That is a simple proposition in mathematics, and I hope I am not embarrassing the Postmaster General in pointing out that simple fact to him.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Will my hon. friend
recommend that I reduce the salary of the present postmaster at Halifax?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I was not talking about that; I was showing how you could save the whole salary.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will take my hon.
friend's advice, if he will recommend that the salary of the postmaster at Halifax be reduced to that of the gentleman who has been acting there.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: No, I am pointing out how you could have saved it altogether.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have already saved $10,000, my hon. friend says.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why not continue and
save more?


John Gillanders Turriff: Will the minister state
his policy in connection with the appointment of postmasters from the ranks of those who have served at the front and come back wounded? It seems to me that this is one of the services in which the Government could appoint these men to advantage.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am glad my hon.
friend has brought up this matter. At the very outset I announced, in speeches which I made in Quebec, that I would consider those who came back from the war wounded in making appointments to the post office service, and that, irrespective of party, I would give the preference to wounded men who came from the front, provided they were competent to fill the positions which offered at the time. We have appointed two or three men of this class. That is the policy of the Government.


John Gillanders Turriff: Would my hon. friend
urge his colleague the Minister of Customs to carry out the same policy? I was informed the other day of the case of a soldier who came home from the war wounded, a man of good character, thoroughly capable of doing the work of a customs officer, but my hon. friend the Minister of Customs appointed a party heeler to the position and turned down the wounded soldier.


Robert Rogers: Where was that?


John Gillanders Turriff: I will give that information when the Customs Estimates are up.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: So far as I am concerned, sufficient for the day is the evil thereof. The Minister of Customs is here, his Estimates will soon be up for consideration, and the question may then be put to him. I am not responsible for my brother. I have enough sins of my own to account for.
A word as to the Quebec post office which has been discussed so much. My hon. friend the member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) gave figures to the House which were not quite correct. He said, for instance, that when he left the department in 1911 there were from 70 to 75 employees in that post office, that the revenue was only about $100,000 a year. My hon. friend is wrong. In 1911 the revenue of the Quebec post office was $160,968. In 1915, without the war tax revenue, the revenue was $213,563. Consequently my hon. friend from Rouville was entirely wrong both as to the number of employees and as to the

revenue of the Quebec post office. Then in 1911 there were 120 employees in the Quebec post office, and not 75, as mentioned by my hon. friend from Rouville. With regard to the number of employees appointed since 1911, one must take into consideration the fact that these were not all additional employments by any means. The number given included appointments to fill per-_ manent vacancies caused by death, resignation, temporary employment-


George Perry Graham: More particularly resignations.
Mr. CASGRA1N: -and some temporary appointments for Christmas and summer holidays, and additional appointments. It may be mentioned that of these appointments 133 were of a temporary character, 35 to fill permanent vacancies, and 80 additional appointments. But the committee will see that the increased business of the post office in Quebec warranted this increase. The revenue of the office has increased by 45 per cent, and it is still increasing. This expansion of the service and of the revenues would justify an increase of from 55 to 60 .employees. In 1914 and 1915 the postal depot at Valcartier camp was officered fro-m the Quebec post office, and nine men were detailed from the office for that purpose. At present there are a certain number of employees on active military service, either at the front or in and around Quebec, and substitutes have to be employed to take their places. There are fourteen employees who at the present time are absent through illness and whose places have to be filled. The introduction of the parcel post service ib as necessitated the appointment of some new employees in the post office at Quebec. As hon. gentlemen who are familiar with Quebec city know, the Quebec post office is being rebuilt, and at present, by reason of the fact that different parts of t'he post office are separated, it has been found necessary to employ additional porters and carriers to carry on conveniently the service of the post office. During the last few years the letter carrier delivery for the city of Quebec has been increased by reason of the expansion of the city beyond the limits which it used to cover.


George Perry Graham: Do I understand that the number of employees has been reduced, even in Quebec, since 1914?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, it has not been re-iuced, I may say that Quebec is the only hty of those enumerated in the question of the hon. member for Rouville in which
128 i .
;he number of employees has not been decreased, but the number will be decreased rs in the other cities enumerated. These reforms take time. At a time like the present, when there is so much unemployment, especially in the classes from which oost office clerks are taken, it would have been cruel on my part to put on the streets men who were earning their livelihood in ihe post office. The increase in the Quebec post office has been justified by the increase in business, but I will make it my business to keep the number of employees in that post office down to the normal number, to the number which is necessary for the due carrying on of the public service.
In conclusion, let me say this. (Last year the increase in the Estimates which I brought before the House were as follows: Salaries and allowances, $913,324; mail service, $810,000; making a total increase last year of $1,723,000. This year the increases are as follows: Salaries and allowances, $404,440; and mail service, $404,923, making a total increase of $809,367, or a difference in favour of this year's Budget of $913,960. It seems to me that this is evidence of the fact that the Post Office Department, as I said when I began these few imperfect remarks, is fully alive to the situation. I know that strict economy must be practised in the Post Office Department as in every other department of the Government. It is not when we are taxing the people, as we are to-day, that we should be guilty of any extravagance in the administration of the affairs of Canada.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would like the minister to bring down a statement at eight o'clock showing the increase in the cost of rural mail deliveries in each of the three years.	.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


George Perry Graham: any weakness in the Post Office Department, so far as the delivery of the mail is concerned, the head of the department is apt to hear about it. When Sir William Mulock became head of the Post Office Department, like the present minister, he had his difficulties; and he grappled with them in a masterly way. I think his administration will stand out as one of the best we have had in Canada in any of the Government departments. When he took over that branch of the public service there were ever-recurring deficits, but he inaugurated a sound business policy, as a result of which the department was able, not only to pay its way, but to contribute a little revenue to the treasury as well. As his methods became more finmly established year by year, the department showed a surplus. It was during that time, too, that it was demonstrated that an extension of mail facilities to the public does not decrease the revenue, but tends to increase it largely. For instance, when through his efforts arrangements were .made for a two-cent postal rate, not only domestic but foreign as well to a certain extent, instead of the revenue of the Post Office Department decreasing it increased; the business of the country was reflected in the amount of mail matter carried, and conversely, the business of the Post Office Department was reflected in the extra business done throughout the country. Srt William Mulock's successors have carried out very successfully the policy which he laid down, and have expanded it in some directions, such as, rural mail delivery. The bone of contention with the present Government over this department was the idea the people got that the immediate predecessor of my hon. friend was reckless, that he had not a good idea of proportion where the cash of the country was concerned, that he rather made public efficiency subservient to political exigencies. A good deal of criticism has been directed his way, but I think the strongest criticism that has ever been made came from the present Postmaster General to-day. Generous hearted, he dealt the blows as lightly as he could, and struck only when he was compelled to strike in self-defence; but that he utterly condemned his predecessor will be evident to those who read Hansard to-morrow, if they had not an opportunity of listening to his remarks this afternoon.
My hon. friend took the peculiar position of dividing into two parts the management of the Post Office Department under

the present Administration; the period during which his predecessor held office, and the period since he himself took charge of the department. It has been charged that the ex-Postmaster General had loaded the service down with an abnormal number of employees, a number altogether out, of proportion to the necessities of the public service. The Postmaster General to-day admitted that; in language as gentle as he could use, but he admitted it absolutely.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Oh, no.


George Perry Graham: He told the House this afternoon that he had largely reduced the number of employees in his department since 1914, and that he was going to continue in that good work. He put it even stronger than that: although the business of the department had not decreased, he said yet he had decreased the number of employees. That was simply an indirect way of saying that the number of employees was altogether too large for the business transacted. I commend him for his frankness, and I think it should not be necessary again for any member on this side of the House to remind, the country of the fact that Mr. Pelletier did over-man and over-load the Post Office Department altogether beyond reason. I trust the present minister will be successful in the efforts he has begun to get the number of employees down to a reasonable basis-to something like the number he would employ if the Post Office Department were his own private business.
To prove that what the Postmaster General has said with reference to the overloading of the Post Office Department before 1914 is absolutely accurate, let me just recapitulate a few figures. In reply to a question of the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) the other day, figures were given with reference to several big cities in the Dominion, including Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Wimiipeg, Vancouver, Victoria, Three Rivers, Sherbrooke, St. John, and Halifax. Without going into details, on July 1, 1896, there were 823 employees. On October 1, 1911, fifteen years later, that ;number had increased to 2,208, an increase of 1,385 in fifteen years. That was the period during which Canada expanded beyond the wildest dreams of any man in the country; the period during which this country sprang into a prominence almost unparalleled in the history of any country in the world, so far as rapid progress is con-

cerned; the period during which her population rapidly increased, and the great West largely developed- At the end of that period Canada, as a commercial country, as a hive of industry, and as a rapidly developing agricultural country, was no longer on the back street among the nations of the world, but on the front street. During those fifteen years, with all the progress and development that was taking place, the increase in the number of post office employees was 1,385. On October 1, 1911, the number of employees was 2,208. On February 1, 1916, there were 3,640 employees in the Post Office Department. That is to say, within four years, during part of which time at least, immigration into this country ha4 largely ceased, and business was not rapidly developing, but rather the reverse, and during which the city population was not increasing as rapidly, I imagine, as it was before; notwithstanding all that, the number of employees in that department increased by 1,432, or 47 more in four years than the increase during the previous fifteen years. I think that substantiates the indirect criticism of the Postmaster General that his predecessor had loaded this department beyond all reason.
Let us now come to a few of the details; let us take first the city of Montreal. On July 1, 1896, the Montreal post office had 289 employees, and on October 1, 1911, 737 employees, or during the fifteen, years under the Laurier Administration, when we had Sir William Mulock, Sir Allan Aylesworth, Mr. Lemieux, and Mr. Beland at the head of the Post Office Department, the number of employees increased by 448, although it was the greatest term of expansion that the city of Montreal ever had.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Oh, no, you are wrong.


George Perry Graham: For the fifteen years?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: You are wrong. Montreal has expanded more during the last - few years than before.


George Perry Graham: Than during the fifteen
years?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The population has increased.


George Perry Graham: I will show my hon.
friend that the city of Montreal would have had to increase more in four years than in fifteen in order to support his contention, and he will not argue for a moment that it has done so. During the fifteen years the number of employees in the Montreal post
office increased by 448; during the last four years the number increased by 538. No one will argue that the increase in the public service during the last four years has been so out of proportion to that during the previous fifteen years that that increase was necessary.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Does my hon. friend
know that the limits of the city of Montreal, north and east, have been so extended that that city now covers an area almost twice as large as it covered three years ago, and that therefore the number of substations and of sub-post offices, and consequently the number of employees had to be increased correspondingly? If my hon. friend takes the city of Montreal as the basis of his arguments, he will fall down, because there is no place in Canada where the expansion of the post office was more necessary as regards business and the number of employees than the city of Montreal. If there is any part of the business of the post office which can be defended successfully-and I think it all can-the post office in the city of Montreal is certainly one.


George Perry Graham: No one questions for a moment that Montreal has expanded; that it is the greatest city of Canada; that certain suburbs have been taken in. I know that as well as my hon. friend, but he cannot fairly take the assertion that the difference is so disproportionate that it required a 25 per cent greater increase in the number of employees in four years than it did during the whole previous fifteen years, because the expansion in Montreal during those fifteen years was perhaps the most marked of any city on the continent.
All the cities have grown, it is true, but during the 15 years previous to 1911 their growth, as well as the growth of their suburbs, was unprecedented. I think, if my hon. friend would take time to look' into all those matters, and also take the business of the suburbs into consideration, he would find that my criticism was very fair. The fact that my hon. friend has decreased the number of' employees and is going to decrease the number still further proves my case without my saying any more. I say that there are too many employees; my hon. friend says the same thing, and he is going to make a still further decrease in their number. I am just saying what my hon. friend said this afternoon, that there are too many employees in his department.
In Toronto, the total number of employees on February last was 1,070; on October 1, 1911, it was 657, and on July 1, 1896, 238;

the increase in 15 years nnder the previous Administration being 419, and the increase in four years under the present Administration being 413. We who live in Ontario know Toronto pretty well and we are proud of that city as being the centre of progress and education; but with all its advancement and the extension northward in the Rose-dale direction, and west and east, no person 'will argue for a minute that its expansion lor the fifteen years previous to 1911 was not *greater than the expansion since 1911. Those engaged in real estate, about which we iheard last night, will agree with me that my statement is absolutely incontrovertible. I agree with the minister that that increase was out of proportion to the business increase and that he has done right in reducing the number of employees without doing injustice to any person so far as he can avoid it. I commend him for taking that course and I am substantiating it by giving him the figures upon which he has no doubt based his action.
In Quebec, the total number of employees on February 1 last was 262; on October 1, 1911, it was 119, and on July 1, 1896, 66. The increase in the number of employees was 53 in fifteen years; the increase during the past four years has been 143. I do not believe my hon. friend will argue that the business has increased during the last four years so disproportionately, to the increase during the fifteen years previous to 1911, when the then Prime Minister was the representative for one of the Quebecs, and when it is quite evident that he did not take the stand that the predecessor of my hon. friend took, that the postal service must be overmanned for any reason whatever.
In Winnipeg the number of employees on February 1 last, was 386; on October 1, 1911, it was 273, and on July 1, 1896, 56. The increase in the number of employees during the fifteen years previous to 1911 was 217; the increase during the last four years was 113, a little over half as many. I need not say anything as to that western city which during the fifteen years previous to 1911, went ahead by leaps and bounds, and is doing so now, I presume. It has had a marvellous growth and extension; but although those figures are much nearer what they ought to be than the figures in some of the other cities that I have mentioned, still I think reasonable men will agree with me that there has been no greater ratio of increase in Winnipeg during the last four years than there was during the

previous fifteen years when Winnipeg grew to be the Winnipeg that it is to-day.


Mr. CURRIE:: By what process of argument? The hon. gentleman, of course, will see that an increase of twenty-five per cent in a city of 50,000 people would call for a smaller increase of post office employees than would an increase of twenty-five per cent in a city of 100,000 people. The hon. gentleman's argument has no force for the additional reason that eastern cities, such as Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, and others, have grown within the last five or six years equally with the western cities, or, in some cases, even more.


George Perry Graham: I fear I do not catch the hon. gentleman's argument.


John Allister Currie: The hon. gentleman says that in so many years 150 men were added, but in the last five or ten years two hundred and fifty men were added. That may be perfectly right as a statement of fact, but the conclusion which the hon. gentleman draws from it does not necessarily follow. The growth during the last four years would be much greater in numbers than during the ten years before, though the percentage might be the same. For instance, the number of people added to the population of Toronto from 1890 to 1900 would :be, possibly, 60,000, which would require an increase, let us say, of 100 in the number of post office employees. But if the city increased in similar ratio in the next ten years, the increase possibly would be 150,000 and the additional number of post office employees would need to be in proportion. Does not the hon. gentleman see that?


George Perry Graham: I hear the hon. gentleman's statement, but I am not impressed with it. His argument does not need any reply from me, for the reason that the Postmaster General has already replied by saying that the number of employees was too great and that he had reduced the number.	*


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I did not say it was too great.


George Perry Graham: But he did say that he had reduced the number? If he has not made any reduction, then I will have to take back all the compliments I offered
him.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The circumstances under which we are now operating are absolutely different from those when Mr. Pelletier

was head of the department. I am not going to say that he employed too many men. I say that the circumstances under which we are now living make necessary the strictest economy, and so, if I have reduced the number of employees even at the expense of the employees, they will have to make the sacrifice.


George Perry Graham: The hon. gentleman is generous to his predecessor, and I admire him for it, but the fact Temains that he has taken pains, in, the statement he has made to the House, to divide it into two parts, one covering the period when his predecessor was in office, and the other under his own administration. This is a thing unprecedented in governments, for the Government is responsible no matter how ministers may change; it is not customary to divide the actions of Government as between a minister and his successor. I appreciate my hon. friend's gentility and his tenderness to his predecessor. I am only showing that he has grounds for his action, and he cannot get away from that very well. In St. John post office, the total number of employees on the 1st of February last was 95, as compared with 72 in October, 1911, and 56 in July, 1896; an increase in fifteen years of 16 employees, and in the last four years of 23. In Halifax post office there were 93 employees on the 1st February last, as against 71 in October, 1911, and 47 in, July, 1916; an increase in fifteen years of 24 and an increase within the last four years of 22.


Mr. EDWARDS:: I notice that the hon. gentleman is making a comparison of fifteen years with the last four years. Has he the figures to enable him to make a comparison of the last four years and the four years immediately preceding?


George Perry Graham: I have not those figures, but I think if I had them I should not be alarmed by the reading of them.


John Allister Currie: Has the hon. gentleman the figures to show the relative growth of population and of post office employees? That would enable us to judge whether there had been more than a normal increase. For instance, Saskatoon, fifteen years ago, probably required only one person in the post office, even if theTe was a post office at all. I know that there were only about three houses when I was first there.


George Perry Graham: I have not gone into
that. But I may say that the complaint ia that din many of these cities the population has not increased so rapidly within the last few years as in some years previously. But perhaps the hon. gentleman (Mr. Currie) had better not make selections, as he might be unhappy in some of them.


William Cameron Edwards: But would it not be
fair?
' Mr. GRAHAM: It might be, but I have not the figures before me. I want to emphasise what the Postmaster General made clear to my mind this afternoon, that, while, previous to 1914, there evidently has been an overmanning of the department, he, since 1914, bad been doing his best to bring the expenditure down, and that in doing so he had reduced the number of employees.


Mr. MORPHY:: During the war period.


George Perry Graham: The beginning of the wai period synchronized with the change of ministers. But the hon. gentleman went further, and stated very strongly that not only had he reduced the number of employees, but he proposed to reduce them stall further; that he intended to make appointments only when absolutely necessary; and that where there was not work for the present employees he would gradually dispense with the services of some of them. He told us, inferehtially, that he would have dispensed with the services of some but for the fact that it would not have been humane to deprive them of their employment abruptly. In that, I have a good deal of sympathy with him. If I may understand anything from his remarks, my understanding is that the department was overmanned, that he had been reducing the staff gradually, and proposed to get it to a business basis. In that I think he is to be commended. The figures I have given, compiled from his own .answers to questions, I think, speak for themselves, and are a proof of his wisdom in carrying out the policy he has announced.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend (Mr. Graham) has referred to the post office at St. John, showing that there has been an increase of .something over twenty in the number of employees since 1911. The postmaster at St. John, Mr. Sears,, has been postmaster since 1908 or 1909, and, so far as I know, he has been a good postmaster and has given veTy good satisfaction to the public. I think the correspondence will , show

that any increase in the number of employees in St. John post office has been made on the direct representation of the postmaster who has pointed out from time to time what clerks wiere necessary in order to properly do the work of the post office there. The clerks are appointed on the recommendation of the postmaster, after investigation by the officials of the department. Speaking from what I know-and I would know if the reverse were the base -*since 1911 the Post Office Department has never been urged to appoint post office clerks for party reasons or for party purposes. Such appointments have been made at the instance of the postmaster who decided what clerks were needed to handle properly the postal business of the city of St. John.
Since 1911 there has been a considerable increase in the population of the city of St. John, although that, perhaps, would not account for the total increase. At the St. John office mails are received and despatched to other points throughout New Brunswick and the Maritime Provinces; the increase in the work in that connection has necessitated the employment of a number of additional clerks. Further, until a few years ago, the Atlantic mails during the winter months went through the city of Halifax. Most of these mails now go through the port of St. John, and that necessitates the appointment of more clerks than were previously required. The increase has been made for public reasons, and not at all for party purposes. From what I can learn, I do not think that there are too many officials in the post office at St. John properly to do the work required of them. They are hard working men, and their hours are long. The number that my hon friend has mentioned includes the members of the letter carrier staff; in order to discharge properly the work of distributing letters throughout the city, it has been found necessary by the postmaster on several occasions to urge in the strongest possible way that an increase be made in his staff. The increases have always been made upon his instance, and not for party purposes.


John Hampden Burnham: I should like to ask the hon. member for South Renfrew whethei it is not possible to inject into this discussion some reference to the expansion oi trade. Surely the matter of population and the record of the number of persons previously employed are not the only elements in the question. We have had a tremend-

ous expansion of facilities for the public, such as parcel post and rural mail delivery. Since 1911 the trade of the country has increased, I think, more than 25 per cent; therefore the natural inference would be that the number of employees required to do that business in all branches, public as well as private, would increase 25 per cent.


Charles Marcil: Could the minister give the committee a statement concerning the results which have been effected by the establishment of the rural mail service?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The rural mail service brings the post office, -as it were, to the door of each inhabitant of the rural districts. The demands that we have for the establishment of rural mail delivery routes throughout Canada are evidence that the people are satisfied with the system. During this year we 'have not extended the system, and if we do not do so for some time to come it is simply on account of the stringency of the times.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister give figures showing the financial result of the service year by year from its inception?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I cannot do that now. We promised to get that information for the hon. member for Pictou, but it was impossible to get the figures 'between the time when the committee rose at six o'clock and now. I believe, however, that we can get the figures to-morrow.


Charles Marcil: I understand that the institution of this service means the general closing of post offices?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Who is the judge of that matter, the inspector, or the department?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The matter is gone into very carefully by the superintendent of the Rural Mail Service, and upon the report made by him the department decides whether or not the rural mail route should be established and whether or not the post office should he closed.


Charles Marcil: In my constituency the first rural mail service was introduced at New Richmond.. The route started at New Richmond railway station, and included New Richmond proper, an office opened about five years ago, while New Richmond West, an office which had existed for over 60 years, was closed. The result is that the people are worse off than they were before,

and they have 'been asking the department to allow the old office to remain open. The people want to know upon what process of reasoning the department decided to close an office which had been in existence for sixty years, and to allow an office opened only three or four years ago to remain open.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Prom what the hon. member said this afternoon and this evening, it appears to me that he gives two reasons why this post office should be kept open: first, that it was established sixty years ago, and, secondly, that there is a model school near the post office, the children from which distributed the letters to the inhabitants. In the face of the report which I got, I do not think that those reasons would be sufficient for me to keep this post office open and at the same time to maintain this rural mail route. However, we are sending a special man down there to see whether or not it is expedient in the public interest that this office be closed. I know that my hon. friend would not make such an effort to have this office kept open unless there was some good reason why it should be kept open.


Charles Marcil: I do not like the explanation of the minister with regard to those people who do not ask for this rural mail service. In the case where only 50 per cent of the people say they want the service, the other 50 per cent are deprived of the post office and must necessarily take up the rural service or have no service at all.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That depends upon the circumstances. - There are some cases in which particular circumstances arise which lead us to believe that the closing of the post office would be a hardship, and not in the public interest. In these cases the post offices are not closed. A great deal of care is exercised in this matter; the interests oi everybody are gone into as far as possible before a post office is closed. Only the public interest moves us to close a post office, under the circumstances which I have mentioned. However, the practice to which my hon. friend refers has been the rule since the inauguration of the rural mail service; it is borrowed from the United States. It has worked very well; very few complaints against the rule in question have come to the department.
The fact that 50 per cent of those on rural routes have decided to ask for the rural delivery, with the experience we have had since the inauguration of the system, is
evidence to me that the rule is a good one, and that we should adhere to it.


Mr MARCIL:: Would the minister state the deficit in the department due to the operation of the rural delivery service?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I could not do * that
to-night.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister let us have that information to-morrow?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will do the best I
can, but it will take a considerable amount of work because the accounts are not kept separately in the department.


Mr. OLIVER:: It is easy to understand
that if a rural route traverses a well settled locality there is no necessity to continue the rural post office; but in the condition that prevails generally in the Prairie Provinces, where the population is established on the checker board system, the route can cover only a small proportion of those who were served by the rural post office. Special consideration should be given to these cases.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The principle laid
down by the hon. member is generally followed by the department. We have a general rule, of course, that when a rural mail route is established the rural post office is closed; but, as my hon. friend says, there are circumstances under which we cannot close the post office. Every case is examined very closely by the officers of the department, and generally by myself, and the decision depends on our view of what will best suit the interests of the locality.


John Howard Sinclair: All through eastern.
Nova Scotia there are very long rural mail services. The Intercolonial in the east passes through the centre of the province, and the distant points along the coast are served by coach. A small extra amount would probably induce the coach-driving people to adopt, at least in the summer, automobiles in place of the coaches. That would be a great improvement in the mail service. It is evident that in such places it would be impossible to establish the ordinary rural mail delivery, because it would take the driver of a coach, who who might possibly have to travel forty, fifty, or sixty miles, so long to call at every farm house that the people at the end oi the route, say at a place nice Canso, a town of 2,000 inhabitants, would have to wait altogether too long for their mail. A

motor service was employed between Anti-gonish and Sherbrooke, a forty-mile route. The contractor did this voluntarily, and it was found that whereas the coach reached Sherbrooke at 9 o'clock in the evening, the automobile reached there at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, after delivering the mails at the post offices along the route for forty miles. That is a very important accommodation to give to the people in those places, and I trust the minister will look into that question, and if it is found impossible to apply rural mail services to those districts that some improved accommodation of this kind will be given.


Francis N. McCrea: The hon. member for
Guysborough has suggested that the minister should adopt an automobile delivery.' I think it would be well for the Postmaster General to give us the cost of the maintenance of the automobile in the inspector's employ at Sherbrooke, Que., including repairs, gasolene, chauffeur, and so on, for the past year. These figures might convince the hon. member for Guysborough that an automobile service is not a practical way of delivering mail. At the same time the minister would be answering a question that I and I think the people would like to have answered, that is the cost of maintaining the automobile now in the service of the department at Sherbrooke.


John Howard Sinclair: I do not wish my hon. friend to misunderstand me. I do not propose that the minister should buy automobiles to do this service, but when he advertises for tenders for the service, I would like him to consider what additional amount of money would be required by the contractor to give the people this accommodation, especially in the summer season when the roads are good. If it was a small amount, and I believe it would be, the change might be made in many places. It might be found to be too extravagant to be adopted, but I do not think so. The minister is probably familiar with the way in which business is done in the country districts. Livery stable people are generally the contractors in the case of large contracts where long distances have to be covered, and the livery stable horses are very much in request in the summer time. Many people want horses to drive round to the sea shore, and on holidays, but in the winter time they are a drug on the market. It would perhaps pay the proprietors of these long distance coaches very well to put a car on in the summer

time, and to reserve their horses for other uses, or use them when the snow is deep to carry the mails. There are circumstances of that kind which I think the minister would find would reduce the cost very much, and I would ask him to investigate the matter.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What my hon. friend says is, I think, very reasonable. I understand him to say that there are certain parts of Nova Scotia where it would not be in the public interest, or in the interest of those who inhabit those parts, to establish rural mail delivery, but that it would be in, the public interest, and would probably cost no more, to open post offices nearer to each other, and have the service done by automobiles. Under ordinary circumstances, I think such a system would commend itself immediately to me, but in view of the fact that we are obliged to curtail expenditure at the present time, it is a matter which I would have to investigate before giving a definite answer. In reply to my hon. friend from Sherbrooke (Mr. McCrea), I may say that the automobile, to which he refers, was purchased before 1911, and it was an old automobile at that. It is a fact that the automobile is costing a large sum of money for repairs and maintenance, and the other day I took occasion of a visit from the inspector to instruct him to report how much 9 p.m. that automobile cost, why the cost was so great, and if it was necessary to maintain the automobile in the service. He represented to me-his report has not yet come to hand-that the automobile was a source of economy in the inspector's office at Sherbrooke. For instance, he said that with the car a man could make three or four inspections a day, while if he had not the car at his disposal, it would take three or four days to make one inspection. However, I am to get a full report on these questions, and then I will decide what to do.


Francis N. McCrea: An automobile might be a source of economy, but not a seven-passenger touring car.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My hon. friend is right, but as I have mentioned this was a secondhand car when it was purchased. If we can sell the car to any advantage and purchase a small car, I think it would be to the advantage of the department.


Francis N. McCrea: Will the minister be able to give us the information as to the cost of

maintenance, and the rest of it, before the session closes?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I hope so. I have
written again to the inspector instructing him to send me a report.	[DOT]


William Cameron Edwards: I would like the minister to give his attention to a matter which I regard as of considerable importance. But before touching on that, I would like to call the attention of the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) to a fact in regard to the figures which he quoted in comparing the increase in the number of employees during 15 years, with the increase during the last four years. I asked him if he did not think it would be fairer to make the comparison between the increase during the past four years and the increase in the four years immediately preceding. If the number of letters posted in Canada is a criterion of the number of officials required to do the business of the post office, the increase in the number of letters posted in 1914 as compared with 1911 is equal to the total number of letters posted in 1900. But it was not in regard to that that I desired to speak. I want to take exception to the argument that we should have a surplus in the Post Office Department, that it is evidence of had management if the Post Office Department shows a deficit. With that statement I do not agree. If there is any department of the Government, which, in my judgment, is justified in having a deficit, it is the Post Office Department. Every cent of revenue in that department comes directly out of the pockets of the people, and no Postmaster General is doing his duty if he can point to a surplus in his department while the people are being imperfectly served. Give the people of the country a good service, and you will find them making no objection, if they find the balance a little on the wrong side of the ledger.
In regard to the rural districts, rural mail delivery has proved a boon; the people are delighted with it. In many country districts they have a right to ask the Government to spend some of its money in giving postal facilities. What else can the Government of this country give many people in the country districts, especially in the rougher and more poorly settled districts. Even if it costs more to give that service in certain districts the department is justified in giving it. Again and again I have made application to the department asking for services in the more sparsely
settled parts of my county, and invariably the first thing done is to look up the revenue from the post office in the district. I do not think it is right; I do not think that should be so. For instance, in many places in the county we have a bi-weekly service. In my judgment that is a little better than no service at all. The people should have at least a tri-weekly service, and, even if the revenue is not equal to the expenditure, the department would be justified in giving that service. I weuld ask the minister's consideration of the fact that by the establishment of the parcel post great hardship and great injustice were done to many people who were serving the country on certain routes. There is no doubt about that at all. Many of those people encountered pretty severe competition, and, as the Postmaster General knows, performed the services required for a very small sum of money indeed, hardly enough to pay for the food of their horses, and for the wear and tear of their rigs. They did obtain considerable revenue from the carrying of parcels, but now they are obliged to carry the parcels as mail, and that source of revenue is cut off. Many of those people, in my county, and I dare say other members can say the same thing, have asked that some consideration be shown to them in view of the circumstances. Now, if it is right that railways should receive extra pay for the extra amount of mail they carry-and if they carry extra mail they will very soon come with strong arguments for extra consideration-it does seem to me that these couriers on long routes, who, before parcel post was established, were getting very small remuneration for the service they performed, should receive fair play at the hands of the department in view of what has been taken directly out of their pockets by the establishment of parcel post. It was to impress my view that they should be given extra remuneration that I rose on this occasion. In fairness to the men, I think this question should receive the serious consideration of the minister.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: This matter was ventilated in the House last year, and I think at that time I pointed, out that in every contract for carrying mail on these routes a provision was inserted that if the extra mail carried should entail the hiring of extra help, either in horses or men, the rate of pay would automatically increase. I have taken into consideration the fact
Commons
that there has been great hardship in many instances by reason of the establishment of parcel post. Every ease had been judged strictly on its merits, consistently with the duty I owe to the public. In many instances I have come to the conclusion that the rates paid should, be increased.


Frank Oliver: I should like to endorse everything that the hon. member for Fron-tenac has said. The condition he has described in his county is exactly the same in the constituency I represent, which is very largely served by rural mail delivery. Practically to repeat what he said, the contractors, bidding against each other, contracted to carry the mail at low prices. They had then the benefit of the revenue from the carriage of parcels. But now they have lost that revenue, and are compelled to carry parcels at the same rate they contracted to carry the ordinary mail. In addition to that, by reason of the recent construction of railroads, the burden on some mail routes has been tremendously increased. I would urge the minister to take these facts into consideration with respect to all that part of the prairie country where the service is principally by rural mail delivery. While I am on my feet, I will take advantage of the occasion to mention the case of the mail carrier from the town of Clyde, on the Edmonton-Athabaska line, carrying mail westerly. He stated his case to me, and it seemed a very hard case. I was given to understand that he had had to hire additional teams to carry the parcels, whereas formerly he had made a very substantial revenue by carrying them ait a fair rate. I should also like to ask the department to be more prompt in the future than it has been in the past, in taking advantage of the facilities furnished for the transport of mail by the construction of railroads. To mention one particular case, last summer, on the Peace River branch of the Canadian Northern, there was a train service twice a week. It was established in the fall of 1914, and has been running ever since. In the summer of 1915 the country traversed by this road was receiving its mail once a week by ordinary stage. Now, that is a very undesirable condition. I know it existed in that case for a considerable period. The people from month to month were expecting the change to be made, but up to the last accounts I had the change had not been made; probably it has been made by now. These delays are very disappointing to the people, and I

really do not think there is any very good reason for their existence.	On
the Dun vegan line of the Peace River railroad, the track is about completed to Grand Prairie city, and the company will put on a service as soon as the rails are laid; I fancy they are laid now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Has the contractor
handed over the route to the railway company?


Frank Oliver: No.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The railway is not finished yet?


Frank Oliver: No, that is just the point I wish to make. That of course did not apply in the case of the Peace River branch, because that route was being operated by the company at the time I speak of. But a period always intervenes between the time the rails are laid, and the taking over of , the road by the operating company, and a service dis in fact given in that intervening time. Now, the ordinary citizen cannot see any reason

and as the representative of those citizens I am bound to say I do not see any reason myself-why a responsible organization such as a railroad or a construction company, which is running trains and carrying freight and passengers, should not be allowed to take the mails at the same time. The rails, I think, will be up to Grand Prairie city now, and the company will be conveying passengers and freight to Grand Prairie city on schedule from this time forward. And with all deference to precedent and everything else, I respectfully urge that it would be right and proper for the Post Office Department to make arrangements for having the mails carried twice a week, even before the railroad is taken over by the operating department of the company. The same applies to the branch to Peace River Crossing, and to the Waterways railroad, which is constructed as far as Lac la Biche. I do not know whether it is under the operating department or not, but a regular train service is being run at the present time. Inasmuch as the Waterways railway has track laid for 182 miles from Edmonton, and the balance to Fort McMurray will be laid during the coming summer, I would urge that means be taken to have the mails conveyed by that route, so that the construction parties on the road-the tracklaying and ballasting parties-will get the benefit of the mail service and the people at the further end will in all probability receive their

mail in shorter time than if it were taken over the present route, that is to say, by rail to Athabaska Landing, thence by steamer and then over the portage to Fort McMurray. I desire to bring these matters to the attention of the department.
There is another matter which I believe has been arranged, and if so I desire to compliment the department on making the arrangement, because they have stepped^ a little outside of the ordinary rule in doing so, and therefore they are entitled to every credit. I refer to the delivery of mail for the town of Grouard, which is situated about eight or ten miles from the line of the Dunvegan railway. The ordinary trail from Grouard strikes the railroad at a point about ten miles from the town, but there is no railroad siding thtere, and it is approximately eight or ten miles from where the trail actually touches the railroad until it reaches the railroad siding. For a considerable time the department insisted on the Grouard mail being delivered by the railroad at the High Prairie siding, and it was then taken by .stage ten miles back to where the trail crossed the road, and then ten miles further to Grouard. The people asked that the train be stopped at the crossing of the trail, and that the delivery and receipt of mail for Grouard be made at that crossing. I understand that that has been done. If it has not been done I want to say that it ought to be done.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It has been done.


Frank Oliver: If it has been done the department 'has stepped aside from its ordinary rule in order to do it. By doing so it has given a great accommodation to an important settlement, and that is what, if I may say so, I understand the department is for. I desire to give the department credit for having taken that action, and, as it was able to step aside from the ordinary rule,in that case, so it may step aside from the ordinary rule in those much more important cases of the delivery of mail at Spirit river, at Grand Prairie city over the Dunvegan line, at Lac la Biehe over the Waterways railroad and later to Fort McMurray.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Early in the session I called the minister's attention to a question in regard to the planning of rural mail route Alma No. 1 in my county, running through the districts of Sylvester and Lochbroom. As a result of that route altogether seven people living on a cross road in the district affected were deprived of any mail accommodation on account of the closing of the post office at Sylvester. I brought the, matter up some time ago and moved for the papers but they have not yet been brought down. The minister will remember that I communicated with him in regard to the matter, and I understood from him that the post office would be opened so that those people would have some place, particularly in the winter time, to get their mail I understand, however, that no action has been taken. 1 mention this as an instance of the imprudent planning out of mail routes in my county. I understand there was some reason why the assurance of the department was not carried out and I would like to know what it is.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I remember that instructions were given with reference to this matter, but I will again look into it. I am surprised if those papers have not been brought down, .because, so far as I am aware, all the papers moved for so fax have been brought down this session.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would like to call the minister's attention to another case. I have said that a great many of the rural mail routes in my county have been laid out very imprudently; and for political considerations as the correspondence will show. I have a return brought down by the minister in regard to the establishment of a rural mail route from Eureka to Sunnybrae and return, a matter to which I referred in the House when speaking on the Budget. The minister answered a question put by an hon. member who sits behind him in regard to this route.
I have herg a letter of complaint which illustrates the way in which the rural mail routes have been laid out in my county. The route is Route No. 2, Seotsburn. It begins at Seotsburn, travels through Rogers Hill and Elmfield, and returns back a mile and a half to the road known as the Campbell road. This road, if a road at all, has from six to seven gates on it; it is not much used by the people, and it is not kept open in the winter at all. The mail carrier has to travel in front of his horse in order to make a track through the snow in the winter time. There are along the route nine families, four of whom do not want the service at all. They were perfectly satisfied with the office and with the service that was rendered before. Acting on the

advice of the people in my constituency who advise my hon. friend, the department closed up this easily accessible post office, and undertook to lay out a mail route to come by that particular road which was not used by the general public at 'all. It is all very well to talk about the glories of the rural mail service, but when rural routes are laid out under such conditions as those which I have mentioned, and post offices closed and mail routes disarranged, my hon. friend should revise very carefully the reports made to him by those who have charge of the rural mail routes in the province of Nova Scotia, and the recommendations of his political advisers in my county.
In regard to the rural mail route from Eureka to Sunnybrae, my hon. friend answered certain questions put by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Schaffner) on March 9. The questions were as follows:
1.	What is the difference in cost between the railway mail service and the rural mail service actually in existence at or near the place called Sunnybrae, N.S., mentioned by the member for Pictou, pages 1304 and 1305 of unrevised Hansard ?
2.	What, if any, advantages have accrued by reason of the establishment of the rural mail service in question?
The minister made the following answers:
1. Present cost by rural mail delivery, $901; former cost by railway, $895 ; increased cost, $5.10.
Then my hon. friend went on to say that under the old system mails went up one side of the river and down the other, and that the people did not receive their mail at a satisfactory time. He also said:
In addition, these mails are delivered not at post offices some distance from the houses of the farmers, but at their doors, along the whole route, and the best proof of the usefulness of the service is that rural field officer McLeod reports through the inspector that, upon making inquiries amongst the box holde'rs, they all expressed themselves as well pleased with the rural mail delivery, and under no conditions would they wish to return to the former service.
My hon. friend the other day, in response to a motion, brought down a return which tells a story in regard to this service, and which shows that a number of people in the village of Eureka, who were anxious for a mail contract, got some of the people in that vicinity and along the riverside to sign a petition asking to have a rural mail service laid out. The circumstances previously had been, that a branch line of the Intercolonial railway ran from the station of the road in my county to a place called Sunnybrae, and on that line there were two trains

a day furnishing the people who live along the riverside with their mail service. In the villages on both sides' of the river are stores where there was post office accommodation. There was no suggestion from the people interested that there should be a change. The correspondence shows that the request for a change came from friends of the Postmaster General who *ere anxious for the job.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am afraid I have more friends than I know of.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I hope the hon. gentleman will not be disappointed when he finds that he has fewer. I have here a return on this subject, and it shows the ridiculousness of the answers to questions given by my hon. friend. Here is the petition of residents of Sunnybrae. asking that the old system should be re-established.
We, the undersigned residents of Bridgeville. Springville and Sunnybrae, in the county of Pictou, province of Nova Scotia, respectively beg leave to present this petition :
1.	We all reside along the lines of the Sunnybrae branch of the Intercolonial railway.
2.	Up to January 1st, 1915, we received our mail daily both from East and West.
3.	On January 1st, 1915 Rural Mail Delivery came into force from Eureka to Sunnybrae. This, instead of being a benefit, has proved an injury to us, delaying our eastern mail from 24 to 36 horn's.
4.	A petition was sent to the department in favour of rural mail delivery. This was signed mostly by persons living between the places above mentioned. A counter petition was afterwards sent in signed to a large extent by the same persons who have signed this present petition, there having been no acknowledgement of the last petition sent in. Rural mail delivery is a benefit to persons residing between points above mentioned but a distinct injury and inconvenience to persons residing at any of the three villages above mentioned.
5.	The mail service formerly in force in the three villages above mentioned was . entirely satisfactory up to January 1st, 1915. We respectfully petition the department that the service be changed as soon as possible and placed upon the same or as good a basis as it was before the said 1st of January, 1915, and your petitioners will ever pray.
Dated at New Glasgow this 6th day of January, 1915.
That is signed by eighty well-known residents of villages in the nine miles between Eureka and Sunnybrae. This was referred to Mr. McLeod, whose chief occupation seems to be running around my county to find rural mail routes. The results of his administration have not been altogether happy. I could take my hon. friend to qvery one of the rural mail routes laid out in my county and show that there is a trail of dissatisfaction because of arrangements

made for political purposes, among the effects of which are that a greater or smaller number of people in every case have been entirely cut off from all mail privileges. Mr. McLeod sends a report which the minister, in good faith, gives to the House. The effect of that report is a declaration by Mr. McLeod that, though these people signed this petition-and they are intelligent men ,-they did not know what they were talking about; that he had gone there and found that these people did not want the old service. These papers disclose the further interesting fact that in the administration of this rural mail delivery other interests were affected very materially. In Guys-borough county are the post offices of Caledonia, Saint Mary's River, and others which receive their mail from Sunnybrae on the Intercolonial railway. When Mr. McLeod and the local political dignitaries in my county decided to take the mails off the railway and create this new service, they arranged also to carry the mails for these points in Guysborough county by the same carriers. The result was that Mr. Rawlings, the Conservative candidate in Guysborough, wrote an indignant letter on the subject. Evidently there was more correspondence with Mr. Rawlings, for his letter would indicate that this was only one of the complaints which he made:
I may say also that this move was wholly the idea of the department. Every man from Sunnybrae to Sherbrooke was, and still is, opposed to the connecting of the mail service with the rural mail service, and prefers to have the train connection. It was not at all in the public interest that the change should be made, and, incidentally, I would suggest that all the mail for Sunnybrae and all points between Sunnybrae and Sherbrooke be sent out from Ferrona on the train as formerly, and the mail connection from Guysborough county going West being also made with the train people of Sunnybrae and Caledonia.
According to Mr. McLeod's own report the railway carried the mails for these points from Eureka to Sunnybrae for $313 a year. In paying this money to the Intercolonial, which is also a Government institution, the Postmaster General was taking money out of one pocket of the Government and putting it into the other. This train makes close connection wit,h mails from Halifax. The mails carried by train were delivered in the post offices of the several villages before one o'clock every day. But under the new arrangement, the carrier starts from Eureka at the same time as the train does, and he has to travel nine miles up one side of the river. He does not get to Sunnybrae until long after the train gets there. Then he
has to travel nine miles down the other side of the river, and the villages on that side receive their mails still later.
To show the way this thing has been received, let me deal with the tenders for the service. There were four tenders-J. W. Russell, $1,000; Andrew McKay, $1,070; D. Fraser, $1,200 and another. They were asked if they would take a lesser amount, and all declined. Evidently, Mr. McLeod came and saw Mr. Gillespie, because that gentleman says in his correspondence that matters have been " explained " to him, and he is willing to take $800. And this is what Mr. Fraser says in one of his letters:
June 16, 1914.
Dear Sir,-I received your note yesterday, the 15th, asking my reason for putting my tender so high.
My reason is that I do not want to work for nothing. I figured out what it was going to cost me, so X thought my tender about right. It is all of 30 miles. So if you do not give it to me do not give it to a Grit as I am told some of them have put in a tender.
This man wanted $1,200 and would not come down-he put in something for his work and something for his party service.


John Howard Sinclair: To whom is that letter addressed?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The strange thing is that it does not show to whom it is addressed. I would like to have that made clear-whether this letter was to Mr. Tanner, or to Mr. McLeod, or to the Post Office Department. Anyway, these mails were taken off the Intercolonial railway train, where the cost of the service was only $313 a year, and they were given to Mr. Gillespie. According to my hon. friend, Mr. Gillespie gets $895 for carrying these mails; according to these papers the amount of his tender was $800. A short 'time after this service had been instituted came this petition to which I have just referred. This petition was referred to Mr. Tanner.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who is Mr. Tanner?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: He is the Conservative member for my constituency in the Provincial Legislature. He was asked what he thought about it. So far as the correspondence indicates, when Mr. Tanner got this petition signed by 85 people, he rather straddled the fence. Whatever was done, if we have all the letters here, was evidently done through Mr. McLeod, his fidus Achates. There were some very indignant letters in this correspondence;
comm6ns
some people were very angry over this contract being changed. One gentleman writes to Mr. Albert Grant as follows:
I understand you have a petition to get the mail on the train again. Please put my name to it; it is only a rat the way it is.
I do not know what he means, but he evidently uses the most emphatic word to express his objection against taking the mail service from the railway. My hon. friend paid the Intercolonial $313. The total cost of the service before was $895.84, the estimated cost of the proposed service was $800, but, according to the statement made in answer to the hon. member for Souris, the present cost of the service is $895. My hon. friend is giving a poorer service to the people along the road, and he has taken the $313 which went to the Intercolonial railway and has given it to this political contractor in Eureka. What is the good of my hon. friend talking of economizing in his department if he does things like that? I have given him three examples of absurd rural mail services in my county; I can give him many other examples of a like nature. There is no use in his talking about economizing if he is going to let Mr. McLeod run loose in Nova Scotia and accept his recommendations with regard to every suggested rural mail route. There is no sense in that kind of business. It does my hon. friend no good; it serves only to disarrange business conditions and create annoyance. It means that here and there half a dozen people are deprived of mail service altogether. I ask the minister in all seriousness to look into these matters and remedy them.


John Howard Sinclair: The service that has been referred to by the hon. member for Pictou is of special interest in my constituency, because it ends at Sherbrooke, in Guysborough county. I am glad that he has laid, the facts before the minister, and I trust that the road is now clear for some improvement. I was under the impression that the service in Pictou county had been improved by the establishment of a rural mail route and that that would account for the delay in connection- with the through service to my constituency, which is in charge of the same courier. But since the rural mail service in Pictou county has not improved matters, I think it ought to be abandoned, because it has injured the service very much in Guysborough county. From Sunnybrae to the town of Sherbrooke

the route is very long, and delay of one day is incurred in waiting for the man who delivers the rural mail along the East river of Pictou to get to Sunnybrae. If it is necessary to have a rural mail delivery service on the East river of Pictou that is another matter. The point is that the through mail which -runs to Sherbrooke down through the district of Caledonia should go to Sunnybrae by rail, because that is the only way in which it can get fair despatch from Sunnybrae to Sherbrooke. If the courier has to wait in Sunnybrae half a day in order to get his mail bag to go on to the route to Sherbrooke, it makes the service very slow indeed. I have received a good many letters in this matter; no person along the route from Sunnybrae to SheTbrooke seems to be satisfied with the present arrangement. They say that it is the worst service they have ever had on that route. The contractor also is complaining; he says that he has to do the whole service at night, that his passengers have deserted him, and that he is running the contract at a loss by reason of the change that has been made in the county of Pictou. A merchant doing business at Caledonia addressed the following letter to Mr. J. S. Cameron, the present contractor:
Are we going to have our mail continue and connect with that rural delivery business at Sunnybrae? What we should have is our mails connect with the train at Sunnybrae, morning and evening, as it used to. If the department wants to give the people on East River a rural delivery, let them do so. When they would not favour us with a daily they should at least give us a tri-weekly that would give us a better service than we get from present arrangements. For instance, a letter mailed in New Glasgow to-day would get to Eureka to-night, to-morrow would land at iSunybrae, and Thursday would get here, and a reply could not be sent until Saturday, which would not reach New Glasgow until Monday noon-just a week, all but one day, in transit.
The distance between New Glasgow and Caledonia is only 28 miles, of which 18 miles are covered by a railroad having a daily service. But under the present system it takes a week to send a letter from New Glasgow, which is the principal town with which these people do business, to Caledonia, and get a reply. If the minister will look into that service, he will see that it is the worst that he can find anywhere., I hope he will be -able to do something to rectify it. It has been drawn to the minister's attention that the service is costing the country more than it cost previously. $895 is being paid to the man

who carries the rural mail up and down the East river. $895.84 was the total cost of the old service, including $313 that was paid to the Intercolonial railway. The Government loses the $313 they earned by carrying this mail up and down the East river, and they are spending the whole of the amount that they spent before, save the small sum of 84 cents. No person in Pictou county is satisfied with it, and the service has been very much worse in the county of Guysborough. I think it is a case for the attention of the department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am a little surprised at the remarks of my hon. friend for, as far as I know, Mr. Macleod is an old and trusted employee of the department. He makes a report that three-fourths of the people along this route are satisfied. Then my hon. friends come here this evening with complaints that seem to be serious.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I took them all from the return.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: All I can do is to send somebody to the locality who will make a correct and accurate report upon the situation, and if I find that the present system is not satisfactory I will change it.


John Howard Sinclair: Should not the officer
have thought of the inconvenience to the other end of the route when he. established it?
Mr. 'CASGRAIN: Certainly.


John Howard Sinclair: There must be some defect in the system if the officer does not report the whole situation to the department.


Charles Marcil: Is the minister in a position to say what revenue has been received from the war tax stamp?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It is impossible, be-,
cause we cannot make a distinction between the revenue received from war tax stamps and that from ordinary stamps.


Charles Marcil: When the tax was introduced the Minister of Finance made a strong point of the fact that the postage was not being increased, but that the two cents postage was to remain in effect. The object of the separate stamp was to have the people recognize that at was a contribution for war purposes. The separate stamp was ridiculous and it was changed; but I think the public should know exactly what they are paying for the service of the department, and what they are paying for war purposes.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The only figures I
could give are the net returns. My hon. fi'iend knows why the system of using a two-cent stamp and a one-cent stamp was changed. The change was made in response to a very general demand from the public, simply for convenience. For a long while I resisted, because I was of the opinion that, as time went on, if we were ever in a position to repeal the special tax on letters, it would be very hard to convince the Minister of Finance that we should return to the two-cent rate when we had a three-eent stamp. But after considering the matter we came to the conclusion that the best thing to do was to adopt the present two-cent stamp with the one-cent surtax on it.


Charles Marcil: On the day that the Min-itser of Finance introduced the proposal of a war stamp, the right hon. leader of the Opposition suggested that it was ridiculous to have two stamps on a letter. It took the minister and the Government a year to admit the validity of the argument of the right.hon. leader of the Opposition.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is there no way in which the minister can tell the House how much has been collected from the sale of the war tax stamps?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My officers tell me it is impossible.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That revenue is not ear-marked or kept separate as war tax?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister look into the circumstance connected with the Scotsburn rural route number -two, because I have received a lot of correspondence with regard to this route, which is situated partly in Guysborough. On one portion of the route there are three well known farmers who do quite a stock business, and who are cut off from mail accommodation altogether. The minister will see the lack of wisdqm of establishing rural routes, if people who do business are thus deprived altogether of postal service. It is all very well to say that a dozen people will get mail at their front doors, and that the majority should rule; but that is no justification for taking away from people privileges and advantages which they now enjoy.


Frank Oliver: What mail facilities are
given on the Canadian Northern Railway between Edmonton and Vancouver?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The information I have is that no facilities are now provided between those two points.


Frank Oliver: I would suggest the advisability of making provision for such accommodation without delay. The Canadian Northern railway have been operating three trains a week each way between Edmonton and Vancouver since some time in November. They give a thoroughly first-class passenger service. The time 'by that route is considerably shorter than by the other route, and of course there are points along the route that should be served. In further reference to the Dunvegan Railway Peace River service, it is the expectation that the present service of two trains a week will he changed to three trains a week at the opening of spring. I would urge the Government to take advantage of this train service to have at least as many mails as the company operates passenger and express trains. On the Waterways road to (Lac la Biche there is now a train service three times a week. There should be a corresponding mail service. The mail service beyond Lac la Biche should be established as coiistruction progresses. In regard to the service over the Canadian Northern railway, Peace river branch, I would urge very strongly that if the railroad is giving a service twice a week to San Gudo and the department is taking advantage of that service to carry the mail, the department should give a corresponding twice-a-weelt service for the balance of the route to Whitecourt. That will be the terminus of the line to which a weekly .service now goes, hut with the increase in the train service, I think there might very well be an increase in the mail service.


Charles Marcil: What portion of the money derived as revenue from the war stamps goes into the war fund?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My hon. friend knows that all the moneys collected from the sale of stamps, whether ordinary stamps or war stamps, go into the Consolidated Revenue Fund.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Where do the expenditures come from?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: From the same fund.


Charles Marcil: If there is a deficit in the Post Office Department, what does the war fund get out of the revenue from the sale of war stamps? Is it not the case that, but for the war stamps, the deficit would have been much greater? Do the war stamps 
not merely serve to bolster up the deficit in the Post Office Department?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Mr. PARDEE:: By taking one-third of the revenue from the sale of postage stamps at outside points, and one-half of the revenue from the sale of postage stamps in the cities, could the minister not arrive at an approximate estimate of how much is due to the war fund from the sale of stamps? If he can make such an estimate, is it not right that the money should go to the purpose for which it was intended?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: While the suggestion of my hon. friend from Lambton (Mr. Pardee) may seem to be a means by which we could arrive at an estimate of the war stamp revenue, he must take into consideration that a great many postage stamps are sold, not only attaching to letters,
10 p.m. but as stamps for drugs, cheques, and other things subject to the war tax. We might say that 33 1-3 per cent of the revenue is derived from the war tax, but that would only be from stamps afiixed to letters and postcards.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It would be 50 per cent on post cards.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is right, but it must be borne in mind that there is a considerable amount of mail matter to which no war stamps are affixed. It is therefore a very difficult question. It has occupied the attention of the department, but we have not been also to solve it yet.


Mr. E. PAQUET (l'lslet) (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, in the month of November, 1915, the Postmaster General introduced a postal service on the Transcontinental between Chaudiere and Monk Station. This is a section in the parish of Sainte-Perpetue, in my constituency. The innovation was gladly greeted by all the people of that country. Now, I would ask, and I think I have in that the support of my colleagues from Levis, Dorchester, Bellechasse, and Montmagny, that the service be improved. As conducted to-day, the service is satisfactory to us, but I know that many have asked and demand important improvements. We would like to have' on the mail car of the Transcontinental a clerk who would sort the mails immediately, so as to permit of a quicker distribution.
I think the Postmaster General could comply with my request, because the people of my county deserve that.

The Transcontinental has cost the country close on to 200 millions of dollars, and I think that the ratepayers have a right to get the reforms I am advocating.
Mr. CASGRAIN (Translation). I must state, for the benefit of my friend from 1'Islet (Mr. Paquet) that, as he is aware, the question of the postal service on the Transcontinental is one that has been under consideration in my department for a long time. As soon as the trains began to move on the Transcontinental we came to an understanding with the members from constituencies along the line, to give them a mail service, which is not at present as satisfactory as we should like, because the mail is carried in a baggage car. We intended to establish a postal service in connection with that line an,d carry the mail in mail cars, but, unfortunately, the railway has not sufficient material yet to allow of our putting mail cars on that section of the line.
I believe that my hon. colleague, the Minister of Railways, is negotiating to purchase the necessary material, and as soon as we get it we shall comply with the very legitimate request of my hon. friend from Tlslet, and of members from other counties along the line.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Where there is a deficit, as we have in the present report of the Post Office Department, does the revenue from the war stamps sold for letters, patent medicines, cheques, and financial transactions subject to the tax, go into the Post Office Department to help make up the deficit; or had it not gone into the Post Office Department would there not have been a greater deficit?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I repeat that there is no separate fund in the Post Office Department for the reception of the moneys collected on war stamps.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Does the Post Office Department not get credit for the revenue from those stamps?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes, but all the moneys collected from the sale of those stamps goes into the Consolidated Fund. It is clear that if the war stamp did not exist, there would not be so much money in the Post Office Department to meet the expenditure.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: So the deficit would be much greater.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not say it would be.
129i


George Perry Graham: This is about the situation, is it not? Unlees the Post Office Department has a surplus equal to the amount of the war .stamps sold, the war fund gets nothing from the sale of those stamps. If the Post Office Department comes out even, independent of the sale of war stamps, the proceeds from the sale of the war stamps stand to its credit, or can be applied to war purposes. Of course, all the revenue from the Post Office Department goes into consolidated revenue, and all its expenses are paid out of consolidated revenue. If the Post Office Department, after selling the war stamps and getting the cash therefor, does not find itself in a condition to hand over its excess, it is clear that not one farthing from the sale of the stamps goes to war purposes, or any other purpose than that of the Post Office Department.


Charles Marcil: When this tax was first introduced I suggested that letters to Canadian soldiers at the front should go free of Canadian postage. I made the suggestion two or three times, and the hon. member for Rouville also intended to urge this on the Government. In his absence, through illness, I brought the matter up, but the request was turned down, the Prime Minister stating that in the absence of the Postmaster General he would not discuss the matter. I should also like to ask the Postmaster General about the mess that occurred at Montreal before the Christmas holidays last year; it would probably be in November. The people had been told that the parcels intended for the front would require certain postage, and they accordingly put the 3tamps on. A week or two afterwards, to their dismay, it was announced that all these parcels were stranded in London, and that if they were to reach the front the Canadian Government would have to make good the difference in postage. Would the minister explain what really occurred, and say whether it is likely to happen again. If our suggestions had been adopted in the first instance, it would never have happened.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I think I explained last year that it was absolutely impossible for us to allow letters to be sent to soldiers at the front without prepayment of postage. In accordance with the Postal Convention, letters would not be delivered unless properly stamped; and unless the Postal Convention was superseded by another agreement, which under present circumstances

would be very difficult, it would be impossible for us just now to give the privilege which my hon. friend suggests.


Charles Marcil: Not even through the military post offices at the front?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No. Great Britain is not doing it. I do not know whether it is in the public interest that I should divulge this, but I will tell my hon. friend what we are doing.


Charles Marcil: It is an old story now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: All letters that come
here from the front are immediately stamped in the post office on their arrival, so that the addressees will not be obliged to pay the double postage.


Charles Marcil: The soldiers are not required to stamp the letters they send to Canada?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No. With regard to the parcels that were insufficiently stamped at Montreal last year, the error occurred through information given out by an employee of the post office there as to the amount of postage required. I do not know just how the mistake occurred, but as soon as it was found out, in order to avoid any delay in the parcels reaching the front, we at once wired to England to have the necessary postage put on. This was done, and so far as we know no delay occurred. I do not think a similar error will be made again. We have reduced very considerably the postage on parcels sent to the other side. A certain portion of the postage on a parcel to the front goes to Canada, a certain portion to England and the rest to France. Now, we have relinquished the portion that is due Canada, decreasing to that extent the postage on parcels for England or France.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: When we are
again in supply, woulc^ the Postmaster General give us an estimate of the number of letters mailed. during the year, and the number of postal cards issued from his department, together with an estimate for the balance of the year?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will give the information as closely as I can.


George Perry Graham: How are we going to take these items? The Public Works Department and the Railway Department take every item in detail.
[Mr. Casgrain.3


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have no objection, but it will take a very long time.


George Perry Graham: The Public Works Estimates have the most detail; such items as bridges, strengthening of bridges, and so on.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am prepared to give the committee all the information they desire.


George Perry Graham: I am not questioning the minister's desire in that respect. I think it has been the custom in the past to go through the items separately.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


George Perry Graham: That has been the custom in other departments. If the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Public Works could put their Estimates through in bulk, as the Postmaster General suggests, it would not take nearly so much time.


Robert Rogers: As I understand it, in the past there has been free and, full discussion of all the items under the Post Office Department. The Postmaster General does not intend to close his Estimates to-night, as the hon. member for Rouville wishes to speak on some of the items. Any item will be open for further discussion later on.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is correct.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If that is so, then this $305,000 would only be a matter of cross-entry.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is so. Of course, we have a great many of those boxes on hand, but at a certain time we were obliged to buy a large number of boxes and to disburse that money.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It is a temporary increase in the expenditure. During the year 1914 we had to disburse this money which will come back to us in later years.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why did my hon. friend buy so many of those boxes at one time? Why did he not purchase them as required?	-


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: For the reason that we got them much cheaper by making the contract under which the boxes were purchased.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am prepared to dispute this matter of book-keeping and crossentry. The minister cannot claim that any of his deficit is accounted for by this expenditure for rural mail boxes, because it simply represents a cross-entry, an expense in which he gets his money back the moment a rural mail route is established.
My hon. friend this afternoon said in regard to another' phase of the situation that' certain proposals made by the former Postmaster General should not be criticised by us; in fact, he stated that they were accepted by us because we did not say anything about them in the House. I want to remind my hon. friend that I have a distinct recollection that, during two successive years when his predecessor was Postmaster General, he did not bring his estimates down for the consideration of the House until within the last week of the session, while every one was getting ready for prorogation. I recall that, on one occasion two nights before His Excellency came to prorogue Parliament, the Postmaster General for the first time gave the House an opportunity of discussing his estimates. Consequently my hon. friend will hardly plead that we are stopped in any way by a discussion brought on under those conditions, and I am afraid he will have to find some stronger argument to justify the course his predecessor took than to say that we on this side of the House did not prolong the session for a period beyond that when it was agreed to prorogue.
I would like to ask the minister whether he could give us any data as to how many men in the service have taken positions in the army post office and have received leave of absence. I understand there is attached to the Canadian Expeditionary Force an army post office and that quite a number of men have been given leave of absence. I would also like to know if those men, who
have been given leave of absence and who are employed in the British army post office, are receiving their pay as officials of the home department while being engaged on the post office work abroad.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I think a report was brought down the other day in which that information was given. I will ascertain that, and if it was not given in the report brought down by the Secretary of State, I will give it to my hon. friend. As to the salaries, I am not in a position to say whether they get their salaries as employees of the Post Office Department or their army pay.


Charles Marcil: I understand a letter from . a soldier at the front is franked there; that there is no stamp put upon it at the front, but that a Canadian stamp is put on here.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Charles Marcil: There is no stamp put on in France or England.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Charles Marcil: Is the stamp put on in Canada charged to any one?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The cost of making the stamp, not the face value of it, is charged to profit and loss.


Charles Marcil: If a letter can be sent from France to Canada without having a stamp on it, why is it that a letter cannot be sent from here to France undeT the same arrangement?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: By virtue of the Postal Convention.


Charles Marcil: In ord,er to send a letter to the front, you must stamp it here.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Charles Marcil: A letter leaves the front with no stamp on it, and when it arrives here you put on it a stamp that you say costs only the printing. Why cannot you send a letter to the front under the same arrangement?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If a letter is sent from here to the front when it reaches the front it has to be stamped just as we stamp it here, or the receiver would have to pay double postage. That is by virtue of the Postal Convention between the two countries.


Charles Marcil: But you have a military post office of your own. I heard Col. Creel-man in Montreal speaking about it.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It is under the authority of the British post office, not our post office.


Charles Marcil: What I cannot understand is this, the post office that you have at the front now is not under the ordinary rules of the Postal Convention; it is a military post office in charge of men whom you send over, because the letters that come from there are under their censorship and bear no stamp at all.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It is under the military authorities of Great Britain, but all the postal stations at the front are subject to the Postal Convention.


Charles Marcil: How is it. that Great
Britain allows a letter to come through without any stamp?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: For the same reason that we would allow it to go through Canada; but when it gets to the receiving post office, if it is not stamped, double postage would have to be charged.


Charles Marcil: What do France and England get for the carrying of that letter if there is no stamp on it?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: They do not get anything.


Mr. GEAHAM:: I have a little complaint to make to the minister. Happily, no harm resulted, as there was nothing of importance in the letter that was censored, but owing to the zeal of the censor's staff in Montreal I had a letter sent to me stamped "opened by censor."


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It is the departmental censorship.


Duncan Graham: I think the zeal was not commendable because the letter was not from- the front; I think it was from the United States. I did not look on the matter as a question of carrying out orders, but as a matter of impertinence, because the letter might have contained business affairs which were none of the censor's business.
The following criticism has been made of some members of the Government, and I want to make it as mildly as I can. We are trying to get recruits; men are giving their,sons; some business men are allowing even chiefs of their staffs to go; yet some ministers have told us in the House that they refused to allow some of' their officers to go. I cannot see, for the life of me, why, for instance, a private secretary could not be replaced for the time being, if he insisted on going to the war. But one member

of the Government has told us that he declined to allow his private secretary to go. There are one or two other cases that I know of. A minister, the other night told us of an official of his department, a member of the militia for years, a first-class officer, who was anxious to go, but the minister told him he could not spare him. These things do not help recruiting. If the ministers cannot put up with a bit of inconvenience by allowing their officials to go, .how can they expect men who, perhaps, are not so closely in touch with the great necessity' to allow their sens to go. This criticism is made particularly in some parts of Ontario where recruiting is urged very strongly at this time.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Some time last summer I wrote to the minister with respect to the mail service along the Intercolonial in my own county. The minister promised to give consideration to the matter I referred to, but so far I do not think that anything has been done. The point to which I called attention is the desirability and possibility of a daily mail service for those places which are on a railway served by a daily train. The expense of a daily service as against a service three times a week in such cases would be merely trivial. Take, for instance, the case of a place like George's Eiver, in my county. A letter from Halifax addressed to a man in George's Eiver, may be carried right past the door of the addressee to Sydney, where it stays, perhaps, for two or three days, and 1 then finds its way back to George's Eiver. Not only in my part of the country but everywhere in Canada where there is the daily railway service, there should bg, as much as possible, a daily mail service. .Many people subscribe for a daily newspaper, but a newspaper two or three days old is not read. I renew my request to the minister, as far as my own county is concerned, and I have no doubt that other places along the Intercolonial are in the same position.
I wish to register my complaint and protest against this rural mail delivery business. Putting the case without adornment,
1 think that no Postmaster General should plunge into rural mail delivery with a deficit in his department. If any part of the country is to have the luxury of rural mail delivery, it ought to be only when there i6 plenty of money to provide that service. If any rural mail route has been established since the war began, especially since the last of March, 1915, when the

minister must have known that he had a deficit of something over $2,000,000, the establishment of that rural mail route was not made advisedly. As to my own part of the country, until we have a daily mail everywhere where such a mail can be reasonably provided, there is no justification for rural mail delivery anywhere. I come from a part of the country with fairly large towns and good communities. I have never asked for a rural mail delivery. I think that if we have a daily mail to post offices at reasonable distances of two miles or two miles and a half apart, we are reasonably well served, and we should not plunge into debt to the extent of the enormous deficit of last year and the one we are likely to have this year in order to provide the luxury of rural mail delivery. It will not strike the average countryman with satisfaction to be told that his postal rates are increased from two cents to three cents in order that some people in a part of the country he knows nothing about may have rural mail delivery. It would be harsh to say of the ministers that they have got money under false pretences, and I do not wish to say it. When they told the people that they must pay an extra cent on every letter in order to help in carrying on the war, the people were pleased to pay the money, at least they did not object to paying it, for such a purpose. But when it turns out that not half a cent of that money ever found its way, or ever will find its way, into the fund for carrying on the war, if that is not obtaining money from the people under false pretences, at least it is obtaining it from them in a way different from that which was explained to them, and different from that which they unduerstood.
I wish to bring to the attention of the minister another matter relating to the mail arrangements in my county. A change in the routes of the Intercolonial has disarranged one mail route. There \^as a daily mail route between the town of North Sydney and the Bras d'Or district. There was a change on the Intercolonial, and in stead of the mail to Big Bras d'Or, Little Bras d'Or and other points being delivered at North Sydney, it is delivered aj; Little Bras d'Or, three miles west of North Sydney, and does not go to North Sydney at all. The mail starts for northern points from Little Bras d'Or instead of from North Sydney as it used to. There is a hiatus there, a space of four miles where there is no mail route at all. A newspaper published at North Sydney, on Wednesday that used to
go to Bras d'Or the same night now does not reach Bras d'Or until Friday morning, on account of this break. What I want the minister to do, if it has not already been done, is to see that some arrangement is made by which the mail may be carried from North Sydney and Sydney to a point on the railway where it can be deliered for the northern district. The expense would be trivial, but the delay that is now incurred is causing a good deal of discontent among the people.
I cannot help adding my approval to what has been said by the hon. member for Fron-tenac about the hardship that is imposed upon the mail contractors. A good deal of that hardship is complained of in our part of the country, where contracts were given out for the carrying of the mail before the parcel post system was inaugurated. They complain that their vehicles are piled up with heavy loads, whereas before this new departure was made, the weight was but trifling. I need not tell the minister that the contract entered into by these men was that they were to carry the mails and nothing else. By reason of the additional material which they are now required to carry, the weight of their loads has been trebled. It was never in the minds of the parties at the time they made the contracts that they would have to carry that extra weight.' I do not know how the minister can figure it out, but I think something should be done to even up matters and to give these men compensation for the extra service that they are rendering to the country.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Deficits, of course, are always unfortunate, but if there is a deficit anywhere, it is a fair place tp have it in the Post Office Department. The criticism from the other side of the House today has come almost entirely from gentlemen who live in cities, and who have their mail delivered to them every day, for which service the whole country has been paying. I think it is only fair that the farmers of this country and those who live at some distance from the towns, should have their turn, and that, even if there is a deficit, the people in the cities should be willing to pay in order tlhat the people in the country may be accommodated. We hear a great deal to-day about keeping the boys and girls on the farm. That is a splendid sentiment, one that needs, perhaps, more consideration than has ever been given to it. One of the best ways to keep the boys and girls on the farm is to

give them the daily press. I think that this does not work out just the same in the country from which my hon. friend comes as it does in the western country. I have not been in Nova Scotia for a long time, but I should think that in the country from which my hon. friend comes no people are very distant from a town or a train. But in our country, where we have, as the 'hon. member for Edmonton has said, the checker-board or township system, it is not so easy for the people to get their mails. People to-day are anxious to get the daily paper; they aTe willing to drive miles to get it. My hon. friend said that unless there was plenty of money in the treasury we should not extend the rural mail delivery service. I have established some rural mail delivery routes in 'the constituency of Souris, and I can say that no other service is giving the people as much satisfaction - as the rural mail delivery. Having regard to the fact that we want to keep the boys and girls on the farm, I believe that even if we do run a little into debt, there is nothing that would satisfy the people like the rural mail delivery service.


John Howard Sinclair: It is a very popular way of dealing with this question to say: Let us give the people rural mail deliveries, without considering who is going to pay for it. The question is, can we afford under the present condition of our finances to expand this luxury much more than we have done? My hon. friend probably has not studied the public accounts and has not noticed the enormous expenditure in the Post Office Department. I was startled when I looked over the blue-book published by the Government this year to see that such an enormous expenditure has been made in that department. I think that the Post Office Department is the greatest example we have of extravagance. In the year 1910-11, the last year for which we on this side could be held responsible, the total expenditure in the Post Office Department wa's $7,954,222. The expenditures for the following years were: 1911-12,	$9,172,035;	1912-13,	$10,882,804;
1913-14, $12,822,058; 1914-15, $15,961,191. For 1916-17 the minister is asking for $17,486,727. Comparing the expenditure of 1910-11 with the proposed expenditure for 1916-17, you will find that there is an increase of $9,932,504, practically $10,000,000. That is more than double. In the four years this Government has been in power the

total expenditure has grown from $8,000,000 to $17,000,000; that is $1,000,000 more than double the expenditure of the late Administration. That is a very extravagant record for the Post Office Department, and it cannot all be attributed to the rural mail delivery or the explanations given by my hon. friend this afternoon. I quite understand that he was interrupted frequently and perhaps did not have proper opportunity to make his case, as I would have liked to see him make it. But at the same time I think it is impossible for the minister to justify an increase of $10,000,000 in the Post Office Department during the time the present Government has been in power. The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) asked some questions in regard to this matter in the effort to ascertain why the expenditure had grown so enormously. He asked the increase in the number of regular, salaried employees in the ten cities: Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Three Rivers, Sherbrooke, Halifax, St. John, and Victoria. The number of employees in those ten cities at the time the late Government went out of power was 2,208. At the present time the number is 3,630, an increase of 1,422 salaried employees appointed during the present administration. That is an enormous increase, and I do not think it can be justified by the increase in the business. In looking at the revenue I find that while the expenditure during those four years has increased by $10,000,000 there is no corresponding increase in the revenue. The revenue for the last year for which we have the figures is practically $4,000,000 more than it was when the present Government came into power. That is an increase of $4,000,000 in four years, and I have no doubt it is largely accounted for by appointments to office that should not have been made, and by extravagance in the letting of contracts. I do not know how else to account for it, and' I would like to see some better account given of that enormous increase of expenditure than has been given by my hon. friend this afternoon. I think it remains yet to be explained, and I trust that when we meet again to deal with the Estimates of the Post Office Department, the minister will, in some concise way, tell us what justification there is for an increase of $10,000,000 during the short time this Government has been in power.*


George Perry Graham: On page 99 I find an item of $15,000 for expenses of administering the Act respecting Annuities for Old Age. Will

the minister give us a resume of the work done by that branch when we next take up his Estimates? It is a branch of some interest.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


George Perry Graham: The minister has worked very hard,, and we do not want to overwork a minister, and still there is a lot of discussion to take place. That is a pieoe of information, not a threat. We want to make some progress. Suppose we call the first and the last items carried and adjourn, and then we could discuss any of these other items to-morrow. The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) will be here then, and we will still be in a position to discuss the ol4 age annuities.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister be prepared, at the next sitting, to bring down information with, reference to the expenditure in the Yukon? I had occasion to call attention to the fact that there are 9,000 people in the Yukon, and that it costs the people of the Dominion of Canada something like $1,000,000 to keep them there, which is a veTy large amount per capita, consequently we would like Retails of the item. It seems we have to-pay them something like $120 a head in order to have them remain in the Yukon.


George William Kyte: I would like the minister to bring down the correspondence with reference to the letting of the contract I spoke of this afternoon, between Grandique Ferry and Ariohat and West Arichat.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11 o'clock p.m.
Thursday, March 23, 1916.