1916-05-04

VACANCIES.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received communications notifying me that the following vacancies have occurred in the representations, viz.:
Of Edward Arthur Lancaster, Esq., member for the Electoral District of Lincoln, by decease; and
Of James Reid, Esq., member for Electoral District of Restigouche, by decease.
I have accordingly issued my Warrants to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery to make out new Writs of Election for the said Electoral Districts respectively.



EXCHEQUER COURT ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 99, to amend the Exchequer Court Act. He said: The purpose of the Bill is simply to extend the jurisdiction of the Exchequer Court so as to enable it to determine questions purely and simply of value. In the past there have been instances where the situation that arose was either that some

party or parties put before the Government or some department of the Government a claim with regard to which there could be no room for debate or discussion as to the existence of the claim, hut which was of such a nature that the quantum to be paid could not be agreed upon and was not easy of determination, or that it having been deemed proper that certain property or properties belonging to the Crown should be disposed of by sale or lease or otherwise, the parties concerned and the department concerned were not able to determine what would be the precise value. The purpose of the Bill is to add a clause to the Exchequer Court Act enumerating the matters with regard to which that Court shall have jurisdiction and to add a clause giving it jurisdiction for the purpose of determining the value in cases such as I have referred to. The present difficulty is that in such cases there is no case proper that comes under any of the cases enumerated in the existing section.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N.B.):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to move the adjournment of the House, and before doing so, I want to state that I have given you very short notice. I have given the leader of the Government no notice at all, and I realize that I am perhaps trespassing upon the good nature of the House in taking this course, but my reasons are as follows: A matter occurred this afternoon at the sitting of the Royal Commission when Mr. Johnston was prohibited from cross-examining witnesses on the ground that the scope of the commission was not broad enough to permit of his doing so. I wish here in the most emphatic manner to state that I do not wish to be considered as casting any reflections whatever upon the decision of the commissioners. I simply want to state the facts as accurately as I can. Mr. Johnston rather persisted in the matter, and finally the commission made the statement that it might be advisable to apply to Parliament in order that further powers might be given to them. The only way that I could do so would be to move the adjournment of the House in order to discuss the matter, and the discussion on that motion, as my hon. friends know, would

be a discussion only of the matter itself and, of course, would not decide what might take place in the future. I did not leave the rooms of the commission until ten minutes past one o'clock and I had no time whatever to see anybody. As the House met at two o'clock, I simply handed to Your Honour a very rough draft of my proposal and I had no opportunity of communicating the matter to my right hon. leader or to the Government side of the House.


Mr. ROGERS:: I may say in general
terms, that, of course, there would be no objection to the adjournment of the House being moved for the discussion of any question of public importance. My hon. friend presents a statement of what he claims to be the facts as presented at the commission about one o'clock


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Before noon.


Robert Rogers: -when Mr. Johnston was refused the right to cross-examine certain witnesses in connection with the investigation, but my hon. friend can quite understand that we have not all the facts before us. We have not the exact statement as made by the commissioners and the reasons given for their refusal, and I think my hon. friend should at least be satisfied to allow the matter to stand until to-morrow when we shall be pleased to facilitate any proposal he wishes to make with respect to the adjournment of the House for the discussion of the matter, as we shall then have a report before us.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: 
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The routine proceedings have been completed.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: We have not
yet come to the Orders of the Day. Subsections 3 and 4 of the rule are as follows:
(3) The member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, and states the matter.
(4) He then hands a written statement. of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the House. If objection is taken the Speaker requests those members who support the motion to rise in their places, and, if more than twenty members rise accordingly, the Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not wish to ask you to make a ruling at all-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. (Reading) : " The hon. member for Carleton desires the leave of the House to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the enlargement of the scope of the Mere-dith-Duff inquiry." I suppose the hon. gentleman refers to the Royal Commission.
'Mr. CARVELL: Yes, That was written in a great hurry.


Robert Rogers: I can only repeat wha/t I said a moment ago, that, in view of the fact that the House would not be in possession of the facts of the case and the actual statements made by the commission giving their reasons for the refusal, whatever they may have been, I think my hon. friend from Carleton will appreciate that he should not press the motion until tomorrow, when, I assure him, everything will be done to facilitate the bringing of it before the House with a view to having the discussion he desires.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Of course I could not refuse the request of my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works, put in such a pleasant tone as he has put it to me; but I would like to impress upon the House the importance of having this matter decided very early. We can quite see that the whole investigation, or at least a very large part of the conduct of the investigation is held up, pending the decision of that question. For instance, the witness under crossexamination was Sir Alexander Bertram, whose examination was delayed or postponed until this matter should be decided. The same question will arise, I think I am safe in saying, in the case of two-thirds or three-quarters of the witnesses that may be called. 'Therefore, if it is to be decided at all, it must be decided quickly. However, if the minister thinks it cannot be discussed to-day, I want to be reasonable, and I comply with his Tequest. I would make this suggestion, however, that possibly an arrangement might be made by which it could be discussed after eight o'clock this evening.



Mr. MEI'GHEN: May I ask the hon. member a. question? Does he intimate to the House that the commission themselves expressed the desire that their powers should be enlarged?
Mr. 'OARVBLL:	I would not go that
far. The commission made the suggestion that the application be made to Parliament.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Of their own motion they counselled that application be made to Parliament?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The commission themselves made the suggestion of their own motion that if-I want to use the words as nearly as I can,-if Mr. Johnston desired to go into these matters it would be proper to apply to Parliament.


Arthur Meighen: That is very different.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I want to tell the hon. gentleman that I am not trying to deceive the House, and I do not think it necessary to have any nasty insinuations thrown across the floor. We may as well understand that from the beginning.


Robert Rogers: In view of the fact that provision has been made for the printing of the evidence taken by the commission day by day, I think we should not go on with this matter until to-morrow. We shall then have the printed evidence and hon. members will then have before them the exact statement of the commission, and there will be no question between this side of the House and hon. gentlemen opposite as to the facts. T do not think it would be in the interests of the recommendation made by my hon. friend to undertake the discussion to-day.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Do I understand from the minister that to-morrow the matter can be discussed?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is quite satisfactory.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	From whom is the Government purchasing supplies for the troops located at Charlottetown, Summerside and Souris, P.E.I.?
2.	From how many persons or firms did the Government receive offers for these supplies?
3.	What prices is the Government paying

for the supplies they are purchasing at each of the above mentioned places?


Mr. ROGERS:: 
Mr. DOHERTY:: It has not been the practice to answer questions of law. Section 1, however of An Act to enable Canadian Soldiers on Active Military Service during the present war to exercise their electoral franchise, provides:
1.	Every male British subject of twenty-one years of age or upwards serving in the military forces of Canada in the present war (hereinafter called volunteer), who, within six months immediately preceding the date when he was appointed to or enlisted in such forces, had been resident in any electoral district in Canada for a period of not less than thirty days, shall be entitled to vote in the electoral district in which he was last so resident in the manner hereinafter set out, notwithstanding his absence from such electoral district or from Canada:	Provided that if any person
was, at the time he was so appointed or enlisted, qualified to vote in any other electoral district in Canada he shall vote in such other district only.
-and makes no exception of Indians.
215i


WAR SUPPLIES AT WINDSOR, N.S.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	From whom is the department purchasing supplies for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces located at Windsor, Nova Scotia?
2.	Were tenders asked for the same? If so, in what manner were they published or made public, and on or about what date?


Robert Rogers: '
1.	From the following: Dominion Can-ners, Ltd., T. Upton Co., Ltd., Walter F. Card, Geo. W. DeWolf, Wentworth Stores, Wentzells, Ltd., Great London & China Tea Co., Wm. Neilson, Ltd., and Canadian Milk Products Co.
2.	Yes; tenders for meat were invited by circular letter, dated December 15, 1915, from 6 firms; 2 tenders were received. Also for jam from 15 firms; 6 tenders received. On December 30, the G.O.C., iM.D. 'No. 6, was directed to obtain tenders for bread and groceries. On January 6 he forwarded 7 tenders for bread, groceries and straw. On March 2, 1916, tenders for tea and coffee were invited by circular letter from 18 firms; 8 tenders received. On March 22, 1916, tenders for bacon, lard, butter and groceries were invited from 17 firms; 1 tender received.


FARNHAM EXPERIMENTAL FARM.
Mr. BOIVIN:: 1.	Who has charge of the Government Experimental Farm at Farnham, Quebec?
2.	What are the names of the persons employed by him upon the said farm since the first of January, 1914?
3.	What salary has each of the said employees received?
4.	What balance, if any, is due to the said employees for work and labour performed prior to January 1, 1916?
5.	Why has said balance not yet been paid? Mr. HAZEN:
1.	Mr. Omer Victor Chevalier.
2	and 3. Amounts paid from January 1 1914, to March 31, 1916: H. Gariapy, $17.25-
D.	Marchesseault, $19.50; G. ArohambauIL $19.50; W. Gariepy, $36; G. Tetreault, $935.90; I. Clouatre, $863.90.; L. Georges, $19.50; A. Savarais, $24; L. E. Lorquet, $1,662.50; Y. Lorquet, $17.50; L. Tetreault, $78.40; A. Fournier, $21.30; J. Morris, $1.50; Alphonse Benoit, $15.80; H. Messier, $45.60; V. Tetreault, $182.40; J. Forgues, $6.40; J. Thurston, $9.60; E. Perreault, $14.80;
E.	Brouillette, $150; J. Lamarche, $59.75; E. Blaine, $14.40; P. Lapierre, $70.35; A. Champagne, $42.60; C. Thurston, $107.44;
A.	Tetreault, $203.20; A. Dandelin, $30.40;
B.	Lamarche, $38.40; C. A. Rainville, $3; R. Portelance, $231.30; H. Ruelle, $15.19;


MOSES MITCHELL.
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Was Moses Mitchell appointed a valuator in reference to land expropriated by the Dominion Government for the Valley Railway at Fredericton, N.B. ?
2.	If	so,	what amount was	paid by the
Government to Mr. Mitchell for his services in this connection as a valuator or otherwise?


Mr. REID:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


J. J. BEHAN.
Mr. ROSS:: 1.	Is J. J. Behan, of Kingston, Ont., employed in any department of the Government? If so, in what capacity, and what is his salary?
2.	How long has he been so employed?


Mr. BLONDIN:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


PAYMENTS TO A. C. ST. AMOUR.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	What is the salary paid to Mr. St. Amour, Superintendent of the Soulanges canal?
2.	What additional sums, month by month, have been paid to him by the Government since his appointment?


Mr. REID:: 1.	$1,700 per annum.
2.	Statement showing amounts paid monthly to A. C. St. Amour in addition to his salary from date of his appointment, 25th November, 1911, to 1st Aptil, 1916:
Travelling expenses:
1911.	1912.	1913.	1914.	1915.	1916.$ c.	$ c.	$ c.	$ c.	$ c.	$ c.Jan.. .	39.65	34.40	42.40	42.90	41.40Feb.. .	53.20	16.40	39.25	51.95	49.85March	53.20	41.80	43.30	60.80	59.25April.	68.45	40.15	50.75 22.76	49.25	May..	66.05	52.45	53.45	55.00	June..	93.20	49.05	60.05	65.25	July..	17.10	50.15	55.80	87.30 10.50	Aug. .	86.00 4.50	50.80	93.50 6.00	62.70 26.50	Sept..	68.80	61.30	68.40	66.30 22.50	Oct.. .	61.30	51.60	75.10 12.03	46.30 41.00	Nov. .	46.45	50.30	66.50	54.00 15.00	Dec.. .	27.75	49.90	57.05	58.90	51.90 9.50	
MAY 4, lyi6
Disbursements:
1911.	1912.	1913.	1914.	1915.	1916.$ c.	$ c.	* c.	$ c.	$ c.	$ c.Jan...	22.45	6.70	5.00 2.00	21.70	11.19Feb...	42.49	17.66	13.67	16.39	21.16March	51.24	9.50	18.18	57.20	46.06April.	21.43	26.57	8.97	37.41 33.41	May..	17.25	9.25	9.70	10.20	June..	14.40	10.99	12.55	7.80	July..	15.13	7.30	10.48	7.60	Aug..	29.20 13.00	5.00	10.55	5.25	Sept..	14.06	6.85	9.47	7.25 2.35	Oct.. .	17.45	8.75	6.00	6.25	Nov..	8.30	8.70	7.35	11.10 12.80	Dee...	3.50	24.00	8.15	13.79	14.00	
Disbursements cover moneys advanced by the superintendent to meet express charges, cleaning of office, etc., for which he was reimbursed.


SATURDAY SITTINGS.
Robert Rogers: I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Doherty, the motion standing in .the name of the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden), as follows:
That on and after Saturday next, the sixth instant, and on Saturdays until the end of the present Session, the House shall meet at two o'clock in the afternoon; and the order of precedence on Saturdays shall be the same as on Thursdays.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I would suggest to the hon. gentleman leading the Government, that he do not propose this motion to cover next Saturday. The reason ie that a great many members, believing that this would be the last free Saturday they would have, have made arrangements to go home and fix up business to stay here' through next week, at least until the session is concluded. In addition to that, there is a good deal of correspondence in connection with the two railway propositions which hon. members wish to digest, and for this they have no time but Saturday. I would suggest that the motion be changed to refer to a week from Saturday.


Mr. STEVENS:: 
Mr. KYTE:: I desire to register a very
mild protest against the unnecessary prolonging of the session. We have been sitting here now for a good many months. I think it has been in the minds of many hon. members on both sides of the House that this motion would be moved to-day, or that it ought to be moved. I cannot conceive of any good excuse or reason which can be urged to prevent the House from expediting the business of the session so that we may arrive at the earliest prorogation possible.


Robert Rogers: In answer to the hon.
member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), I may say that this motion was proposed by reason of the fact that, as he can see, there is evidence on both sides of the House of a strong desire that the session should come to an end. The Government are doing everything possible to facilitate the work and to meet the wishes of the members on both sides of the House with the view of bringing the session to an end. I hope my hon. friend will see that the desire of hon. members on both sides of the House is respected to this extent and that we shall endeavour to get on with business on Saturday. If my hon. friend wishes the railway proposals to stand, we can take up other matters in connection with the Estimates, and clean up the work which is still left. By that means we should be able to close the session next week. If hon. gentlemen are well disposed to the carrying out of the business of the House, there is no reason at all, that I can see, why it should not be possible to prorogue in a week or ten days. .


George Perry Graham: I was not speaking for
myself at all, but for several members who have spoken to me in regard to this very motion. While hon. members opposite are not saying anything, those who are opposed to it are saying something. With reference to the expedition of business, I say that there has never been a session during which I have been in this House in which the Estimates have gone through with so much expedition as they have this session. There can be no doubt about that. The minister will remember that there is one very important item of legislation which is constantly before the public and the press,

and which has not yet been brought down. We have begun to sit at two o'clock on week days, and now it is proposed to sit on Saturdays, and that piece of legislation is not yet before the House. I submit that even before we decided to meet at two o'clock the programme of the Government, as is customary, should have been laid before the House. Then we would have known what business was to be transacted. As it is, we do not know. A new Bill was brought down to-day by the Government, an amendment to the Exchequer Court Act. I do not think it is very serious, but to-morrow there may be half a dozen new Bills brought down.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The Prime Minister gave notice of that Bill three or four days ago.


George Perry Graham: He mentioned in a discussion that there would be an Exchequer Court Bill, but that does not alter the effect of my statement. The Prime Minister may say to-morrow that a Bill will be brought down the next day. The Government ought to tell us what its programme is, and then we can sit mornings, nights, and Sundays, if necessary, if the Government want to get through. If it be true that the Government is keeping back an important piece of legislation till the last moment, I do not think it is fair to the House to rush the business through on Saturdays until they tell us their programme. It has always been done heretofore.


Robert Rogers: There may be some ground for my hon. friend's statement in respect to further legislation, and while I am anxious that this motion should be agreed to, as I trust it will be, my hon. friend can depend upon it that the Prime Minister will make a statement to-morrow of all the legislation that is to be brought before the House.


George Perry Graham: I hope we can depend
on everybody being here on Saturday.


Robert Rogers: I hope so.


Mr. HUGHES:: The members from the
East and West have to be here.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. C'HAS. M ARGIL:	May I ask the
Minister of Public Works whether it is the intention of the Speaker to issue his writs
 '
for elections in the counties of Lincoln and Restigouche? Restigouche adjoins my constituency, and, as the people there have been disfranchised for several months, they are interested in knowing whether it is the intention of the Government to bring on an election.
Robert Rogers: The matter has not been considered at all, and therefore it is impossible to give my hon. friend a definite answer.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
['If they cannot get Canadian. We are taking all the Canadian coal we can get, and if we take American it is only because we cannot get the Canadian coal delivered. The hon. gentleman knows the coal situation in the lower provinces. They are giving us all they can spare for Montreal. There is the difficulty of getting it\nthrough because of lack of vessels, a difficulty we have never experienced before.\nOn motion of Mr. Reid, the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.\nFriday, May 5, 1916.']
Mr. SINCLAIR:: While we are waiting, I would ask the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals to read the report of the Marine and Fisheries Committee, which refers to improved facilities on the Intercolonial, and so be in a position to inform us, when we come to discuss that report, whether or not he will accede to the proposals of the committee.


Mr. REID:: I will read, the report, and shall be glad to give the hon. gentleman the information desired.
Trent canal improvements, $40,000.


George Perry Graham: I asked the Minister of Public Works from whom the Seymour Power Company rented certain powers on the French river.


Robert Rogers: I think' those powers were leased from the local Government.


John Dowsley Reid: I discussed that with the chief engineer, and he told me it was from the local Government and not from our department.


George Perry Graham: It would be interesting, in view of what has taken place lately, to know whether it was the Federal or Provincial Government that leased those powers. I am inclined to think it was the Provincial Government, and that they are simply getting back the powers which they themselves leased.
Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada -to pay expenses in connection with cases before them, $25,000.


John Dowsley Reid: That is the usual annual vote for that purpose.


John Howard Sinclair: I noticed in the press some time ago that an application had been made by the Canadian Northern Railway for permission to reduce the rate on, I think, oil in some parts of the West; that complaint was made by the other rail-

ways against the reduction, and that the Board of Railway Commissioners refused to allow the Canadian Northern Railway to make the reduction. It was an unusual position for the board to take. I have always supposed that if a railway was ready to carry goods at a reduced rate, the Board of Railway Commissioners would allow it to do so. I was a little surprised to see that statement in the press. Could the minister tell me anything about it?


John Dowsley Reid: I saw that statement in the press. As the hon. member knows, the Board of Railway Commissioners have a power to fix rates on the several railways. When the Board fix them the railways must put them in force to the public. They have the right, as I understand the law, to prevent the railways from making rates lower than the figures at which they fix them. I suppose this was done in order that no injustice might be done to some other railway. A large corporation, like the Canadian Pacific or the Canadian Northern, might fix lower rates to injure some smaller railway, and for that reason the Board of Railway Commissioners have power to see that no injustice is done to any railway operating in or near the territory through which another railway passes. That is the law, as I understand it.


George Perry Graham: I know something about that case. It was not a rate on oil; it*was a rate given to the Standard Oil Company, or the Canadian branch of the Standard Oil Company, to carry to the West an amount of manufactured steel for the purpose of the construction of buildings to provide a distribution plant in the Prairie Provinces. This steel came in from across the line and the company made application for a rate which would approximate the manufacture in transit rate, just as wheat is given a rate, allowed to be unloaded, made into flour, and then taken in. Application was made to the Board of Railway Commissioners for the disallowance of the rate given. If it had been a universal rate which applied to any appreciable amount of business, the Board of Railway Commissioners might not have given the same decision, but it was evidently in the nature of a rebate to a particular company for a particular amount of business and so against the intendment of our Railway Act and absolutely against the principle of the InterState Commerce Act by which rebating is made a crime. I think the Board of Railway Commissioners took the ground that
practically, if not technically, it was a violation of the spirit of the Act in that it gave special privileges to one company which practically could not be taken advantage of by any other company.


John Howard Sinclair: When I drew the attention of the minister to the matter I did not have the reference, but I have it now and perhaps it will do no harm for me to read it to him:
In a decision given out Saturday, the Railway Commission refused to allow the Canadian Northern railway freight rate cut on steel from Toronto to Regina.
I was mistaken when I said it was oil.


George Perry Graham: It was an oil company.


John Howard Sinclair: It had something to do with oil then.
The rate was a special one given the Imperial Oil Company, which is building a big refinery at Regina. The crude steel is being obtained in Pittsburg. American railways offer a rate of 75 cents from Smoky City to Regina. The company is having the steel fabricated at Sarnia and is shipping it to that point and from there to Regina. The G.T.R. and C.P.R. held out for a rate of $1.04. The oil company was looking for a 75 cent rate and the C.N.R. accommodated them with a rate of 585 cents per hundred pounds from Toronto to Regina. With the local rate from Sarnia to Toronto, this made a through rate of 75 cents from Sarnia to Regina.
There was a united kick from the older railways, backed up by Winnipeg manufacturers. For the first time, perhaps, the Railway Commission refused to allow a railway to reduce its rate.
You will see that the American railways were willing, provided the material was fabricated in the United States, to ship it to Regina for 75 cents a hundred, but the Canadian railways held out for $1.04. The Canadian Northern, for some reason, were not willing to do it for less than 75 cents. I see no reason why they should not have been asked to carry the goods at the rate the American railways were ready to give them. However, that is the case.
Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada -maintenance and operation of, including $800 for Clyde Leavitt, as chief fire inspector, $178,350.


George Perry Graham: What are Mr. Leavitt's duties in connection with the commission?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Leavitt is the chief fire inspector for the commission. His duties are in connection with fires along the railways which the commissioners are obliged to investigate.


George Perry Graham: They do not give him
any money for doing that kind of work.


John Dowsley Reid: $800 ie what the Chairman of the Board of Railway Commissioners recommends.


George Perry Graham: He possibly has some other position and this is to be paid him by the commissioners?


John Dowsley Reid: He is employed in the Interior Department and this is in addition to hie salary in that department.


George Perry Graham: Both departments pay him.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I Temember that certain powers were given the Board of Railway Commissioners with reference to the prevention of fires. The Board, if I remember correctly, in connection with an agreement with the railway companies and the Chairman of the Conservation Commission, issued some orders in reference to fire protection along different lines. The Canadian Pacific burn oil going through the mountains.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: That was suggested by the Board of Railway Commissioners and the British Columbia Government, and I understand that really an order wa6 not issued. In connection with the construction of the Transcontinental through New Brunswick, I think Mr. Flemming came to Ottawa, there was a consultation and we arrived at a decision by which the Transcontinental and the New Brunswick Government acted in unison for the protection of forests during the construction of the railway. That railway was taken over by the Government and it passes through some very valuable property in New Brunswick and in other provinces as well. What steps are the Government taking in reference to the protection of forests in the country through which the Transcontinental is operating?


John Dowsley Reid: The several provinces have their own fire protection service. The hon. gentleman knows the system which is in force on the Intercolonial railway. I think they have tank cars located at different points that they can run along the line and then sectionmen are supposed to watch for fires. In a part of New Brunswick, and in Quebec, there was a private company which owned a large forest and they were paid a certain amount by the Transcontinental Railway Commission and, I

think, by the New Brunswick Government, the company paying a certain portion of the cost. This matter came before me some time ago, and a return was brought down the other day on the subject. We are following the same policy on the Transcontinental since we took it over, as on the Intercolonial; the one policy applies to the whole system. We have tank cars located at different points, and we are not paying anything for outside protection against forest fires occurring along the line.


George Perry Graham: There has been enough
timber lost in Canada through forest fires to keep us running for a good many years, and we are only now beginning to wake up to the necessity of being more careful. The Government, which has now a pretty big mileage under operation, ought to be a model in its precaution against fires occurring along the line of railway. The Interior Department with their fire rangers assist the Government in this respect. If I remember correctly, legislation was passed some years ago, at the instance of the Board of Railway Commissioners, and with the consent of all the railways, after consultation requiring the leading ' railways to station men at certain intervals along their road solely for the purpose of protection against fires. By a little expenditure in this direction a great amount of money may be saved. In British Columbia alone there has been destruction of timber to an extent that, at present prices, would startle the world. I think that what gave rise to the legislation was the number of complaints that had been made against the various railway companies, including the Intercolonial, for having started so many fires. I admit at once that I think the Intercolonial is blamed for a good many fires for which it is not responsible.


John Dowsley Reid: That is right.


George Perry Graham: I should not like to admit that the Intercolonial has caused all the fires of which it has been accused. A good deal can be done, and I imagine is being done to prevent forest fires, by using improved .smoke-stacks, careful firing, and all that kind of thing. A few years ago the private companies, and possibly the Intercolonial, endeavoured to run their trains with engines of too small a capacity, with the result that at the least bit of an incline open went the door, the coal was shovelled in, and a streak of sparks, and fire almost, shot out of the smoke-stack. I suppose that to-day the

Board of Railway Commissioners insists upon the latest improvements being used by the companies, particularly in districts where there is valuable timber, and I think that that is one of the most important duties the Board of Railway Commissioners could have at the present time.


John Dowsley Reid: There is some legislation empowering the Board of Railway Commissioners to give special attention to protection against forest fires throughout Canada, and I agree with the hon. member that it is a matter of great importance. The forests of Canada are a great asset, and everything should be done to protect them. I believe that the present
3	p.m. regulations are good, and are being acted upon. I remember discussing this matter of fire protection with the Hon. Mr. Cochrane and Mr. Gutelius, and Mr. Cochrane gave instructions that the same precautionary measures were to be taken on the Transcontinental as on the Intercolonial. There should be only one system of fire protection for the whole Government railways. Some one suggested to me that the question of fire protection on the Government railway system should be under the Board of Railway Commissioners. I did not care to take that matter up until the minister was here. My own view is that if you are putting the question of fire protection under the Board of Railway Commissioners you may as well put the whole thing under them.


George Perry Graham: Do you mean the Intercolonial?


John Dowsley Reid: The whole Government system.


George Perry Graham: I did not suggest that.


John Dowsley Reid: No, but that is how it strikes me. The minister and I think that if the present law in regard to fire protection is good for the private railway companies it is good for the Government railway sy'stem, and if it is carried out on the Government railway system I think that should meet the wishes of all concerned. That, I understand, is the system that is being carried out on the Government railways. Our own employees are doing the work, but in addition to them we have protection from the Interior Department, which, to a certain extent, looks after forest fires throughout the Dominion.


George Perry Graham: Their work is mostly in the West.


John Dowsley Reid: Probably it is. Then each local Government has its fire rangers and fire protection service, so that not only the Dominion Government, but the local Governments and all the railways realize the great importance of protection against forest fires, and are doing what is necessary in that respect.


Mr. MARCIL:: What system is employed for protecting the railway property itself, in case a fire breaks out at the station?


John Dowsley Reid: There is no fire insurance.


Charles Marcil: Is there any protection against fire?


John Dowsley Reid: It must depend, of course,
upon the local service in any municipality. If fire should break out, say, in any of the small stations along the line, we have no special fire protection.


Charles Marcil: The matter would be all right in a town where there is a fire engine, but there are numerous places along the line where there is no municipal fire protection whatever.


John Dowsley Reid: At large places we have our tank service and hose from our tanks along the line, but in small places where there is no special fire protection service, we could not do anything other than have, say, a chemical extinguisher.


Charles Marcil: A couple of years ago an arrangement was made with the people at Matapedia and the railway by which they could use the water of an old reservoir, and at the time I asked that more hose be put into the station in case fire should break out on the Intercolonial or in the village. The place is huddled up close to the Intercolonial property and there have been a couple of fires there in the past. The last complaint made last year was that the hose in the station was not long enough to reach the houses in the village. The Minister of Railways promised at that time that he would look into the matter. I also asked him if arrangement would be made with the residents of the localities by which they could use the water for domestic purposes.	*


John Dowsley Reid: I was present when the
matter came up. I gave instructions to the general manager to see that the hose was supplied and that the wishes of the hon. member should be carried out. I have since heard no complaints. The fact that the hon. member has brought the matter to my attention will also bring it to the

attention of the people, and if there is any difficulty, I shall be glad to see that the hon. member's wishes are carried out.


Mr. NESBITT:: I notice an item of $800 for a fire-inspector. What does this inspector do?


John Dowsley Reid: This fire inspector receives only $800 from the department, but he is also an employee of the Interior Department. Parliament passed an Act giving the Railway Commission powers in regard to fire protection along the lines of railway so that the commission has power to issue an order as to what a railway must do in that regard. This man has been appointed chief fire inspector.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: While the commission does not control the railway companies it has power to order certain things to be done by the management of those railways.


John Dowsley Reid: By the railway companies themselves. The commission may order the Canadian Pacific or the Canadian Northern or any other railway that comes under its jurisdiction to do certain things towards fire protection along their line of railway.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: But the commission cannot give such orders to the Government railways?


John Dowsley Reid: No, because the Government railway system is not under the Railway Commission in any way and never has been.


George Perry Graham: Some months ago the Board of Railway Commissioners made an order for a union station at Toronto. Can the minister tell us what progress is being made with that station? I admit that it is a little difficult at the present time to get money for the purpose, but this is a joint station in which more than one railway is interested. If ever there was a place where strangers risk their lives in getting on or off trains, it is in Toronto. My hon. friend from North York (Mr. Armstrong) knows his way about the Toronto station and he does not get lost; but if I were to hand in my bill to the railway companies for taking strangers in and out of that building, 1 would have a comfortable living for the rest of my life. You may be standing right beside a train wondering how you are going to get through it to your train and suddenly it will move away. Perhaps the next time a trainman will break a train up in two sections four or

five cars down At other times you vill have to climb in between cars in order to get to your own train. I c in readily understand the difficulty at the present time of hurrying on the matter, but it has been announced during the past few months that work has been proceeding on this new station. Can the minister tell us what the companies are doing or how far they have advanced towards carrying out the order of the Board of Railway Commissioners?


John Dowsley Reid: There has been a delay for a long time in regard to the Toronto railway terminal question. There is no place in Canada where a proper station and adequate terminal facilities are required so much as right in Toronto. Trouble arose over the plans, the cost, and so on, and after a great deal of delay, the matter was finally agreed on by all concerned. I have been urging for a long time that the railway companies should come to some arrangement because we wanted to build an examining warehouse and customs office adjoining that property and we could not start with it because the railways could not get their plans right. However, their plans were approved last fall, and perhaps the hon. member will remember-it was announced in the press-that Mr. Leonard was appointed manager of the terminal company formed to construct that station. I know that the contract has been awarded to Peter Lyall and Sons, Limited, and they have instructions, as I am informed, to proceed with the work and to carry it through to completion as quickly as possible. As the plans have been definitely settled, we can now go on with our work. Probably there will be no difficulty in the future about the station at Toronto. The investigation that we are likely to have into the railway systems of Canada will give good results in regard to stations of that kind. In our large cities there are terminals which not only are an inconvenience to the public but mean an unnecessary expenditure of money, and it seems to me that the terminals in such centres should be all in one place. In Montreal, the Canadian Pacific, the Grand Trunk, and the Canadian Northern have their own terminals and they are all spending a great deal of money on terminal facilities. At another session, we shall have a report in regard to such matters and it will be of great advantage to the public in the future.
I can assure the hon. member that the contract has been let for the Toronto station and the railway companies have in-

formed me that they will push forward the work as fast as possible.


George Perry Graham: Has the Grand Trunk
Railway Company made any claim on the Government to assist them in defraying the expense of such reconstruction as they have undertaken of their station in Montreal?


John Dowsley Reid: No application has been received, so far as I know.


George Perry Graham: For a good many years
there was an arbitration board to settle certain difficulties between the Grand Trunk and the Intercolonial. It seemed to be almost a perpetual board. I think that it lasted so long that one or two of its members died before a report wa3 made. Is that board doing anything now? Are these vacancies filled?


John Dowsley Reid: No, it died a natural death.


George Perry Graham: The difficulties were
straightened out?


John Dowsley Reid: All straightened out; no
difficulties at all remain.


George Perry Graham: I am afraid there are
still difficulties. Reverting to the station at Montreal: the situation there is something like that at Toronto and it has not been modified by the recent fire. I think the Board of Railway Commissioners had the matter of elevating the tracks in Montreal under consideration. Did they give an order about the Montreal station at one time?


John Dowsley Reid: They have investigated,
but nothing has been settled.


George Perry Graham: The entrance of the
Grand Trunk to Montreal is on the level while the Canadian Pacific railway is on the hill and the Canadian Northern under the hill-constituting three distinct kinds of entrance. It may be difficult at this stage to overcome all the difficulties that arise in the way of making ideal accommodation in Montreal for passenger traffic, but, for the convenience of the public it would be much better if, in this, as well as in other large centres, the railway passenger terminals could be concentrated. People getting off the steamer at Montreal go to the Canadian Pacific railway expecting to go right through to their destination. I have seen them, when they showed their tickets, told that they were in the wrong station and that they must go to the Grand Trunk. Of course it is only two blocks away, but when those people got to the Grand Trunk
probably they found that the train -had gone and they would have to wait over until the next day. Of course, it will be difficult and expensive to concentrate the passenger business in such a great centre as Montreal, but it will be a great advantage to the travelling public. I will go further and say, it would be a great convenience to the travelling public if some arrangement could be made by which tickets would be made interchangeable over the different roads.


John Dowsley Reid: That is what I advocated.


George Perry Graham: I think' it could be
brought about. Of course, when you approach the companies about these things you are told that there are insurmountable difficulties. But tickets are issued on the Grand Trunk and the Canadian Pacific railway that are honoured when you get to some other line. To make tickets interchangeable might cause some inconvenience, but I do not see why it should be impossible to so arrange that a man w'ho has paid his money to the Canadian Pacific for a ticket should be able to present that ticket on a Grand Trunk train and the Grand Trunk get their pay from the Canadian Pacific. Can the minister tell me if the Railway Commission was asked to approve of the rebuilding of the Grand Trunk station at Montreal?


John Dowsley Reid: I have made no inquiries
and there is no information in the department on the subject. I see by the newspapers that the Grand Trunk are building a temporary station. I will inquire as to the point the hon. gentleman raises.


Charles Marcil: As I recollect it, within
the last three or four months, the city of Montreal and the Grand Trunk got together and went before the Railway Board with a view to having the work gone on with. The Railway Board, while admitting the need for the work, thought it inopportune to issue an order on the subject on account of the difficulty of raising money at this time to carry on works of this kind. This subject of passenger stations is an old-standing grievance in Montreal. I recollect reporting the proceedings in the city hall of Montreal 25 years ago or more when this very subject was under discussion. The late Sir Joseph Hickson, general manager of the Grand Trunk, had a plan for raising the tracks of the Grand Trunk and building a new station. This question really takes us back thirty years or more, and things are in the same position as they

were then, except that lately the Bonaven-ture station was burned down-through no fault of the Grand Trunk Company-and we now have a very primitive station indeed. I suppose it cannot be otherwise under the circumstances. But I hope that something will be done before the new station is built. As the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) has said, there is great inconvenience in Montreal by reason of the many railway passenger stations in the city. We have the Grand Trunk station, the Windsor station of the Canadian Pacific, and now we are to have the Canadian Northern tunnel station at Dorchester street. The traveller at Montreal is bewildered by the number of railway stations. I have heard the suggestion made that an arrangement should be come to by which the Grand Trunk passenger trains might run on the upper level and the passenger business be concentrated at the Windsor station, the tracks on the lower level to be used for freight business. I do not know whether there is anything in that or not. But if the Canadian Pacific and the Grand Trunk could be brought together in the Windsor station, then, with the Canadian Northern on the other side of the square opposite St. James' cathedral, there would be fairly close concentration, and the whole would be a great improvement. There is another station, the Viger Square station, which is mainly used for traffic going to Quebec, while the western traffic generally leaves by the Windsor station. But the old idea in Montreal was to have one central station. When the Canadian Pacific railway was first started, the city of Montreal voted $1,000,000 for a station at Viger square, then considered to be in the eastern part of the city, but, some time after that a company was formed under which the railway obtained permission to build the Windsor station, and there the western traffic has been concentrated. The minister will be entitled to the gratitude of the city of Montreal if he can bring this condition of affairs to an end. If the Grand Trunk is allowed to put up a very expensive station and to raise their tracks, then the idea of having a union station in Montreal will have to be abandoned for two or three generations at least. Whatever is decided should be gone on with. Montreal has already a large population-over six hundred thousand-and when the war is over and matters fairly settled, within a few years [Mr. Marcil.l
thereafter we count on a million people in Montreal. This railway business is very urgent, and if anything can be done to improve matters it should be done soon.


John Dowsley Reid: I quite agree with the hon.
member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) and have stated similar views. In arranging for terminals at Montreal there are not only three but four railways to be considered, the Intercolonial, the Grand Trunk, the Canadian Pacific, and the Canadian Northern. If it is possible to bring them together in one station, that should be done. The Grand Trunk now have only a temporary station, their station having been burned down.
I understand that the reason they have gone on with this work is that it will take at least $15,000,000 to make the terminals at Montreal and to elevate the tracks. That has not been done. It should be done if there is any possibility of the railways being brought together as suggested by the hon. member. Under present conditions there is, I believe, no possible chance that the Grand Trunk will proceed with any work of that kind during the coming summer. It is the intention to have an investigation made as to the railway situation, and I am strongly of the opinion that there should be some way of compelling the railways to join their passenger terminals together at these large centres of population, [DOT]on the lines suggested by the hon. member. I do not think there is any possibility of much being done during the next few months in any of the large centres, and I am in hopes that when the next session opens we shall have a report that will place every hon. member of the House in a position to judge as to the proper method of dealing with the railway systems in Canada; and the question of terminals is of course, one of the most important features of the whole railway situation. I therefore think we can safely allow the matter to rest until the opening of the next session, and I hope that an arrangement, or perhaps some legislation', may be procured which will put the Board of Railway Commissioners in a position to deal with the question in a place, like Montreal, where the providing of proper terminals facilities would be in the public interest as well as in the interest of the different railways. The saving would, of course, be very great.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I suggest to the minister that he should impress on the railways the

necessity of providing in the present union station at Toronto an information bureau in a conspicuous place, or at least constables with distinctive caps, so that passengers coming off one train and desiring to take another train, may obtain information. It is almost impossible for a person to get information at the union station in Toronto and, as has been said, there is probably no place on earth where people are more likely to become bewildered. I have seen people hunting all over the place for some man from whom they could get information. I have asked about trains and *have received very curt answers, so much so that I have felt almost like taking the fellow by the coat collar and shaking his head a bit.


Mr. MORPHY:: What size is he?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It does not matter to me about the size, they all look alike to me. I want them to be civil. They are not very civil, and do not put themselves out of the way, especially for women and children. If the minister has any control over matters of that kind, I wish he would see that the three railways make 6ome such provision as I have suggested.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree that it is necessary in a station to have a good information bureau. There is one upstairs at Toronto now, but of course there should be one downstairs as well. I will take the matter up with the railway companies and endeavour to have them provide a place of that kind. There is a room in the Union station which, I think, would make a splendid information 'bureau, and we may be able to get it as we shall probably have prohibition in force by September. I will aak the railway company if they cannot make-


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That booze joint.


John Dowsley Reid: -into an information bureau.


George Perry Graham: I think the members have a grievance against the Grand Trunk and the Canadian Pacific Railway for not running the Grand Trunk sleeping car between Ottawa and Brockville during this session.


John Dowsley Reid: Has that car not been on? I wish it had been brought to our attention 'before.


George Perry Graham: It has not been on this session. The Canadian Pacific Railway have also neglected to put on the sleeper
that, during other sessions, lay at Broad street station at night, so that members might board the car after the House rose and awake in Montreal. That was a very great convenience.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think there should be any difficulty about the car from Ottawa to Brockville, as in discussing with the Grand Trunk officials the question of Pullman traffic in Canada, not long before Parliament met, the question of this car was taken up, and it is certainly a great surprise to me to learn that it has not been operated.


George Perry Graham: Then in other years we had a chair car from Brockville to Ottawa over the Canadian Pacific railway. That car has been taken off on week days; it runs now only on Sundays. That causes great inconvenience to travellers. A man has to be at the station before train time if he desires to get a seat.
If he has his wife or children with him he has to go down to the station at least half an hour before the train is due to leave to get a seat, because the only first class coach is usually filled. It does inconvenience the travelling public a good deal. When a chair car is on the intending passengers go down on time and get their seats. I wish to bring another mattter to the attention of my hon. friend. At Iroquois one of the soldiers doing duty on the canal there was killed in November last.


John Dowsley Reid: He was drowned, was he not?


George Perry Graham: No. This soldier's name was Barbour, and he went to assist the lockmaster, and the crank flew around and struck him and killed him. He leaves a widow-I do not know if there are any children-who is not in very good circumstances. Application was made, 1 believe, to the Railway Department, or to the Militia Department, and they declined to do anything on the ground that, legally speaking, they were not liable, which was undoubtedly correct. I suppose that as a matter of law the soldier had no business to turn that crank, and he was negligent in interfering with the work of the look-master. But he was there for the time being, assisting in putting some boats through, being glad, I suppose, to have something to do to keep him busy, and this well intended effort resulted in his death. I am not appealing to the minister on the ground of any legal right that the widow has, but I do appeal to his sympathy, and suggest

that he look into this matter and see whether or not a compassionate allowance cannot be given to this widow, who requires assistance very much at the present time.
I do not claim that the widow has any legal right, but the circumstances are such that I think the Government might well consider the case.


John Dowsley Reid: This is the first I have heard of the case, and I will he very glad to look into it. I do not think it would be possible, even if we so decided, to make a compassionate allowance during the present session. The man may be said to have been on active service, and I wondered whether an application had been made to the Militia Department for a pension. That is a matter which might be considered in a case of this kind, and I believe the Militia Department have been very liberal in such cases when men were on active service. I will take the matter up with the Militia Department. If the widow is entitled to a pension under the Militia Act, it would be much better for her than a compassionate allowance.
Mr. .GRAHAM:	It would be more permanent.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. I do not think that
the payment of a certain amount would be of the same benefit; even the interest probably would not amount to so much as the pension. I will look into the case, but I would suggest in the meantime that if the family have taken no action with the Militia Department they should make an application so that it may go before the Pension Board.


George Perry Graham: I doubt whether the
widow would have any claim to a pension; her husband was not killed in the performance of his duty.


John Dowsley Reid: He was killed at the locks
while assisting the lock-master, and that circumstance might be considered. At any-rate I think it would be well to have the case considered first by the Militia Department. If that has already been done, I will get the report, and if they cannot do anything, I will see that the matter is taken up by the Railway Department with the view of considering whether something should be done to assist the family. '


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I do not wish to take up the time of the committee in going into details, or in discussing the abstract principles on which our railway systems are conducted; but throughout the different time tables one can find many instances

showing that it is the desire of each railway company to run its own business without regard to the passengers who are carried on other railways. They do not care about the connections made from other roads than their own. There are oases in the time-tables where, say, a train leaves a junction point at 10 o'clock, and another train crosses that point say at two minutes after 10 o'clock. There is no chance of the train at the junction point waiting the two minutes to allow a connection to be made by the other train. The time tables are filled with cases of that kind, and disappointments are numerous because of the lack of some consideration being shown to the travelling public.
Mr. MARCH.: They do not co-operate in the interests of the public.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Not at all. The railways are run for the railway companies and not for the public convenience. To illustrate, I went to Toronto on one occasion last winter, having made an appointment at Woodstock, in the constituency of my hon. friend from Oxford. I travelled on a Canadian Northern train from Ottawa and it reached Toronto five minutes behind time, and I missed the Canadian Pacific railway train for Woodstock. I made inquiries as to when I could go on to Woodstock and was told that I could not go until night unless I went by Stratford. I commented on the situation to a gold-topped man, such as the hon. gentleman spoke of, and he was very discourteous about it. I told him that he was not there for the purpose of being discourteous, and he said that the Canadian Northern railway did not count. There were several members of Parliament there, of whom the Chairman of the Railway Committee was one, and the hon. member from North Grey another. The official told the latter that he would have to wait until night before he could leave Toronto, although he desired to get home on the Saturday to attend to his business. I took exception to the statement of the official that the Canadian Northern railway did not count, but he was so big that he scared me off, and I let it go at that. Later on he sent through another member of Parliament an expression of regret for the language he had used. I was forced with another member to go to Shakespeare on the Grand Trunk and to engage a motor car to come from Woodstock, 20 miles distant, to take us there to fulfil an appointment at one o'clock in the afternoon. I

would like to impress upon the committee the fact that experiences of that kind are more general than may be supposed. A communication should he sent from this Parliament to the Board of Railway Commissioners, whose duty, I apprehend it is, to take hold of these questions, to study the time-tables and correct such abuses so that the public may have the benefits, for the securing of which, public money has gone to these big corporations.


Mr. TURGEON:: While we are ventilating grievances, may I take the acting minister down East with me for a moment? I would like to call his attention to the advantage of the through passenger services given on the Intercolonial railway between Montreal and Halifax by means of the Ocean Limited and the Maritime Express. I do not wish to criticise the action of the minister, or of the department, in taking away the service of the Ocean Limited when the traffic does not permit the running of more than one of these trains. But I do want to call his attention to the fact that if we cannot have both of these services, and if one of them must be taken away, in the public interest, in the interest especially of through passenger traffic, and in the interest of the Tailway itself, the Ocean Limited should be kept on and the Maritime Express taken off. All along the railway we have local express services which are sufficient, generally speaking, for the local traffic. I will explain the difference between the through service of the Ocean Limited and of the Maritime Express. If you leave the Maritime Provinces, or northern New Brunswick, by the Maritime Express, in the middle of the night, getting into Moncton at nine or ten o'clock, and Newcastle and Bathurst about twelve or one o'clock, you are on the train all day again and only reach Montreal at six or seven o'clock in the evening if you are on time. Then, it is too late for any person to attend to any business in Montreal. He has to spend all next day and wait until the morning after before he can return East. If a man leaves Moncton, or the north shore of New Brunswick, by the Ocean Limited early in the evening he reaches Montreal at eight o'clock next morning; if he is a business man he has the whole day in Montreal to attend to his business and he can take the train again at 7.30 in the evening and reach home next morning or early in the day, whereas, by the other train, he has to wait until next morning and only reaches
northern New Brunswick next day, and St. John late in the afternoon. The minister will understand the great difference it makes to the travelling public. Then take the southern portion of New Brunswick, St. John and the neighbourhood; by taking away the Ocean Limited you ignore totally the traffic between Montreal and St. John. The Ocean Limited, when it is running, leaves Montreal in the evening about the same time that the Canadian Pacific leaves Montreal for St. John and the man who travels on the Ocean Limited reaches St. John next day about the same time a6 the man who travels on the Canadian Pacific. Therefore, there is an inducement for people to take advantage of the Government railway instead of the Canadian Pacific. If you take off the Ocean Limited for a considerable, or even for a short time, the travelling public from the southern part of New Brunswick have to take the Canadian Pacific and once they become used to that road they continue to patronize it even after the Ocean Limited is put on again. The Ocean Limited therefore loses the traffic for the whole year round. If the local services on the Intercolonial railway are not sufficient to meet the demands, it might be to the advantage of the Government railway to augment that service in one section or another, and then if only one of these through trains can be retained, I maintain that in the interest of the road and of the travelling public, it should be the Ocean Limited and not the Maritime Express. I hope my suggestion will commend itself to the favourable consideration of the minister. I know that I voice the general feeling of the public in the Maritime Provinces
Mr. RiEID: The Ocean Limited is taken off for a few months during the winter for the 6ame reason as that which applies to trains taken off during winter by other railway companies.


Onésiphore Turgeon: I am only speaking of taking off one train.


John Dowsley Reid: I understand that. The reason that the Maritime Express is left on is that you may have a train leaving Montreal in the morning if you are going through to Halifax. The Canadian Pacific has a night train leaving Montreal. If we were to leave on the Ocean Limited you would have two trains leaving Montreal at night and going through to the Maritime Provinces and you would have

none in the morning. Passengers from the West arriving in Montreal at 9 or 10 in the evening, or at 7 in the morning on the Grand Trunk, Canadian Northern, or Canadian Pacific, would have to wait until 7 or 7.30 o'clock at night before they could proceed on their journey through to St. John or Halifax. The object of having two trains, one in the morning, the Maritime Express, owned by the Government Railway system, and one in the evening, owned by the Canadian Pacific system, is that the travelling public may have an opportunity of leaving Montreal for the lower provinces twice a day instead of once as would be the' result if you had a train running on the Ocean Limited time. The only way to satisfy the hon. member would be to keep the Ocean Limited on.


Onésiphore Turgeon: If the department could by any possibility keep on the double service the year round that is what we would like. Taking everything into consideration, I believe it would be more to the general advantage to keep the Ocean Limited on, if only one train is kept on. I perceive the advantage of being able to make connections with trains from the West, but on several occasions when I have come from the West it has been my luck to reach Montreal just in time to miss the Maritime Express, so that even if that train had not been on I would have been just as well off. On the other hand, other trains are supposed to arrive in Montreal in the evening, and these people have the advantage of making a connection with the Ocean Limited; so that, taking everything into consideration, as far as connection from' the West is concerned, I do not think it makes much difference. It does make a great difference to the people of the Maritime Provinces, and more particularly to the people travelling between Montreal and St. John. If the people are without the through service on the Government railway for three or four months in the year they will do without it for the other seven or eight months, and thus a great deal of [DOT]traffic is diverted from the Intercolonial to the Canadian Pacific that would not be diverted if the Ocean Limited were kept on.


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot agree with the hon. member that the connection at Montreal with the Maritime Express from .the West, New York, and other places is not a very important one. I have arrived at Montreal on the Grand Trunk many times, and I

think that on the whole the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific trains arrive at Montreal pretty nearly always on time. There is some little difference between the arrival of the trains from the West, New York, and other places and the departure of the trains for the East, and as a rule, connections are pretty well made.
I do not think the public would stand for the two trains leaving Montreal at practically the same hour at night, and having no train in the morning. We think that we should always have a morning train from Montreal for the lower provinces. With regard to keeping the Ocean Limited on throughout the year, it has always been the policy to run it for a certain number of months only, and take it off in the winter. As an experiment the present Minister of Railways allowed the Ocean Limited to run for the whole twelve months two or three years ago, but the traffic was so small that there was a very, very heavy loss. The hon. member knows that it costs $800 to run the train from Montreal right through, and $800 coming back again,- or $1,600 a day. The loss was so great that the minister had to go back to the system that prevailed before he took office. I could not say whether the traffic now would justify the Ocean Limited being kept on for the whole twelve months. However, it will be on again in the next few days, and will of course continue, even under the old. arrangement, until next fall. On the minister's return I shall draw his attention to my hon. friend's suggestion, and also take it up with the general manager with a view to seeing whether it would be advisable to give the experiment another trial. I agree that the more trains you have the more convenient it is for the public. But, of course, regard must be had to the public interests, when a train is being run at a heavy loss. I am very glad the hon. member has brought the matter up.


Onésiphore Turgeon: I was not criticising
the taking off of the Ocean Limited during a certain period of the year. I admit that it might not be in the interest of the department to have the two trains running in the winter months, and of the two I would prefer to have the Ocean Limited kept on. Another suggestion I would make is that it might be better to have a local train from Montreal to points east in Quebec rather than run the entire train through from Montreal to Halifax or St. John.
i


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: I endorse
what the hon. gentleman has said. The Ocean Limited would give very much better accommodation to the people in Nova Scotia than the Maritime Express. A man going by the Maritime Express to Sydney-and the bulk of the traffic is east of Truro-has to ivait seven or eight hours at Truro before he can get a train to take him to his destination; whereas if he went by the Ocean Limited, he would have to wait only two or three hours, as he would be able to make connection with the train from Halifax. If, as has been suggested by the hon. member for Gloucester, the Ocean Limited were continued instead of the Maritime Express and a local train were put on between Montreal and points east in Quebec, the whole country would be very much better served, because much better time would be made. Is the minister in a position to give me the information I wrote him about a couple of days ago, with respect to the Antigonish flower garden.


John Dowsley Reid: I wired for that, but I am
sorry it has not yet come to hand. I will wire again to-day, saying I must have the information by to-morrow.


Mr. BOULAY:: As the minister has explained it does not pay at a certain time of the year to run both the Maritime Express and the Ocean Limited. If from a business point of view only one train can be kept on, I would prefer to have the Ocean Limited. However, the explanation given by the minister seems reasonable, and it might be more in the interests of the railway and of the people in a certain section of the country to have the
4	p.m. express kept on. Another thing I should like to point out to the minister, and about which I have spoken to the general manager several times, is that the Maritime Express leaves Montreal too early in the, morning for people coming from the West, except those from Toronto. People travelling on the Canadian Pacific Railway train from Sault Ste. Marie, Sudbury or Winnipeg, arriving in Montreal about nine o'clock in the morning, miss the Maritime Express, which leaves at 8.15 and have then to spend a whole day in. Montreal. I would suggest that when the Ocean Limited is taken off, the Maritime Express should leave Montreal about twelve o'clock, as it did some years ago. This would give passengers from the West a chance to get home to points between Levis and Moncton without having to wait twentvfour hours in Montreal. Under the present schedule they have to stay in Montreal from 9 or 9.30 in the morning until 8.15 the next morning, which is very inconvenient. I would suggest that the express start about eleven or twelve o'clock, but twelve would be better, as it would give business men in Ottawa a chance to catch the train. I think this change would be to the advantage, not only of the Intercolonial, but of the whole travelling public between Levis and Moncton. When the Ocean Limited is taken off I think a good many passengers will take the Canadian Pacific railway for points East unless the time of the departure of the Maritime Express is changed, as they would not want to stay in Montreal a whole day. This causes the Intercolonial to lose a great many passengers going to the Maritime Provinces. The making of the change in the way I propose would keep our passengers and would be to the interest of the Intercolonial.
I would like to make another suggestion in regard to a change in the administration. 1 have already complained several tunes that the division between Montmagny and Campbellton is under the control of New Brunswick officials. I would suggest that instead of that, the whole line in Quebec, from Montreal to Campbellton, should lie put under the direction of the Superintendent of Railways. '[DOT] hat would divide more equally the work of the two inspectors, as the one who has charge from Montmagny to Campbellton has under his direction several small branches, such as the Fredericton branch, so lhat he has a good deal more mileage 11 administer than the Superintendent of Railways. My suggestion, if canied out, wouid be satisfactory to ;he people of the province of Quebec; it would settle all the difficulties that we have had for years with the officials at Campb.iikon and ii would also be of great advantage to the administration of the road. The officials at Campbellton who administer the Montmagny-Campbellton division do not know anything about that road; they are all strangers to us; they do not know the giades except from what they see on the plans; and they are liable to make many mistakes. It often happens that trains are delayed on sidings just on that account. If the people appointed to look after that division were men from the province of Quebec who knew the ground, they could do their work more efficiently. I make this suggestion in the interest of the road and also of the people of the province of Quebec, and it would at once remove all the friction



arising between the employees on the two divisions. All the employees in the Camp-bellton office who run the trains on our division speak nothing but English and belong to New Brunswick, and our people in the province of Quebec do not like to be run by those strangers. We prefer to be under the control of our own men whom we know, and it would make conditions a great deal better than they are now.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member mentioned this matter to me a few days ago, and I think the suggestion is worthy of consideration. I am taking it up with the management now, and I shall be glad to see that every consideration is given to his suggestion.


Mr. BEST:: I would just like to add one word about what the hon. member for North Perth (Mt. Morphy) says about trains not waiting for passengers from other trains. I believe that no people are so badly used in that regard as are the people of Dufferin and North Grey. There is a daily train from Toronto.to Owen Sound, a distance of about 120 miles, and from Owen Sound to Meaford on the east is 20 miles. To get across that 20 miles you have to go about 240 miles from Owen Sound to Toronto and back to Meaford. If the trains would wait at Inglewood, about 60 miles would be cut off, and you could reach your destination in about five hours, whereas if you leave Shelburne or Owen Sound in the morning, you arrive at Inglewood about eight in the morning and have to wait until six at night. One train is the Grand Trunk and the otheT is the Canadian Pacific, and there is only about four minutes difference in the time. Many people have been trying to get the matter arranged with the Board of Railway Commissioners, so that the trains might be compelled to wait for each other. I think it is up to the Government to see that something is done in a case like that. No matter whether you go from north to south, or from south to north, you have a ten hours' wait.
I would like to make a suggestion to the Government in regard to the taking away of agents at night on the line between Owen Sound and Toronto. Up to a few months ago the agents used to wait at their offices until the last train, which arrives at Owen Sound between ten and eleven, was-in. For the last few months at many of the stations the agents have been taken away at night, and baggage for one of these stations is thrown off on the platform without any one to look after it, or it goes on

to Owen Sound and it is sent back the next day. That is very unfair, because the line is a paying one; in fact, I have heard it said that there is no better paying line in Canada than the one between Owen Sound and Toronto.


John Dowsley Reid: Such matters should be and can be settled by the Board of Railway Commissioners. There was a similar case at the town of Brockville, where one train left a minute or two before another one arrived. We had the matter arranged by applying to the Board of Railway Commissioners. Their officials look into the matter, and if they find any injustice, they issue an order which the Tailway company must carry out. If the hon. member will give me a written statement of any complaints he has to make, I shall be very glad to bring them before the Board of Railway Commissioners, or the parties interested can do so themselves. All they have to do is to lay their complaint before the Board and ask for a hearing, which the Board are compelled to give, and, as a rule, the decisions of the Board have been satisfactory. The hon. member can either adopt that method of procedure or, if he wishes me to deal with the matter, I shall be glad to take it up with the Board.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I spoke of this matter a few minutes ago, and I rise for the purpose of putting another point of view before the Acting Minister of Railways. People do not like to complain; they do not organize to go to the Board of Railway Commissioners, because a solicitor has frequently to be employed, and that costs money; and, while no doubt they get every consideration when they do go before the Board, I think this is a case where the Government should take action by communicating to the Railway Commission the fact, that this abuse exists throughout the whole railway system. The trouble is caused by each railway acting on the principle of carrying on its work without any consideration to any other railway, to the absolute disadvantage of the public. It is a shame that such should be the case, and the abuse should be corrected. If the hon. minister would state, so that his statement will appear on Hansard, that it is the desire of the Government that the Board of Railway Commissioners should take up this question and see what is the true state of affairs, with a view to correcting the abuse themselves, without the people making com-

plaint, a great benefit would accrue to the people of this country.


John Dowsley Reid: I will bring this matter to
the attention of the Railway Commission as suggested by the hon. member. Complaints are sometimes made against the railways for which little grounds are found to exist when they are looked into; but there are undoubtedly grievances. In a specific ease such as that mentioned by the hon. member for Dufferin (Mr. Best) there is no reason why the matter should not be investigated at once. We had a great deal, of trouble with the connection at Brock-ville, but we got that straightened out.


John Best: I would not have spoken on the subject at the present time but that the judges took it up, and the very timetable itself showed that there was only three or four minutes' difference in the time of the arrival of the trains at the crossing, and the losing of the train at that point might mean a hundred miles of travel for a passenger, or the loss of a day. Not only did the time-table show that one train, would have only a few minutes to wait for the other, but it was also shown that at the other end of the line the Grand Trunk train had ample time to wait. We could get no redress.


George Perry Graham: The Act provides that complaints of grievance can be made to the board not only by interested parties but by the Minister of Railways, or the board of its own volition can issue an order on a matter in which no complaint has been made. There is plenty of room to have the board act in this matter.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I desire the minister to get my point of view, especially in view of one part of his remarks. He said that if any member wishes to make a complaint to the Railway Commission the matter will be dealt with. I think members of Parliament have their time pretty well taken up with the miscellaneous duties they have to perform, and I am under the impression that the Railway Commission is there for the public benefit and to correct these difficulties the moment they hear of them. The reason I spoke was-and I have no doubt the same is true of other hon. members-that I assume the commissioners will read this in Hansard and learn that there is a great public complaint which has not reached them. Having sovereign powers, as you might say, and an equally sovereign duty I 216i
to the people of this country, if they feel there is an abuse they should correct it without waiting for a member- of Parliament to call it to their attention.


Charles Marcil: I desire to add a word
with regard to the situation, in Montreal, in the hope that it will reach the Railway Commission or this new commission, to which reference has been made. I said a few words about the desirability of concentrating the passenger terminals at Dominion square, by inducing the Grand Trunk to link up with the Canadian Pacific and use the Windsor station. With the Canadian Northern on the other side of the square we would have the three railways close together. Another great grievance in Montreal is that of street crossings. On one line they have adopted one system and on another a different system. The Grand Trunk uses the old gate system, and one may approach the railway track when he is in a hurry only to find that the gate is shut and there is no means of knowing whether he is to be kept for a minute or for half an hour before he is allowed to cross. He can take the risk of trying to cross, and he may be crushed, as a great many people have been crushed, under the train. The Canadian Pacific Railway system has been to close up the streets entirely. Under the Canadian Pacific track running from Windsor station, Decarie avenue is the only crossing that is open for many blocks. This is in Notre Dame da Grace, an extension of Montreal, which has progressed more rapidly than any other part Of the city and is now quite densely populated. It is crossed by the line of the Canadian Pacific, and one finds that between Decarie avenue and Montreal West for a distance of fifteen or twenty blocks, every street is closed. The children going to school, the people going to church, the people on their way between Sherbrooke street and the Lower Lachine road may have to walk a mile or a mile and a half out of their way to find a subway which allows them to pass under the Canadian Pacific track. I suppose the company have the power to do this, because the road was built before this part of the city was developed and the crossings that were closed were only farm crossings. But the fact that the company had the right, does not make the situation any less a burden on the people, and I think that means of relief should be found. I hardly know which is worse, the level crossing .system of the Grand Trunk with its gates which

you can got through at some time in the day, or the system of the Canadian Pacific railway which prevents you from getting through at all except by going a roundabout way. The railway companies protect themselves; and of course nobody would wish to see the railways of Canada go behind in any way, but it seems to me there should be some supervising authority to look after the interests of the people. Some years ago I had the advantage of travelling in France, and there I found such a thing as a level crossing to be very rare; the same is true of England. The railways run eitheT over or under the roads. But the rights of the public seem to have been protected; there is something left for the common citizen; he can cross the street without danger of being run over and without being compelled to go half a dozen blocks out of his way. To .solve the very complicated problem in Montreal, these several -matters should be called to the attention of the Railway Board or of the new commission.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be glad to act on the suggestion of the hon. member and call attention of the Railway Commission to the matter. It is a big question and one that will bear examination by the new commission, and I hope that great results will follow that examination.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I had not the opportunity of saying anything with respect to Intercolonial affairs when the Estimates were going through, but I understand that the privilege is still open for members to call attention to matters which they deem of importance with regard to that system. I wish to refer to what has been stated by the hon. member for Dufferin (Mr. Best). I did net hear the whole of his remarks, but I understand the gist of them to be that there is no proper connection made between the different systems of railways, no regulation or understanding by which one train waits for another. He spoke especially of one case in Ontario, but so far as we are concerned in Eastern Canada that is not the case. The feelings of two sets of passengers in trains of this kind are very different. The train load that is held up is swearing at the delay, while the passenger who wishes to take that train is hoping that the train will wait. There is a very strong conflict of opinion about a situation of that kind, and differences are not always easily reconcilable. I have frequently had to wait at Truro from

8 o'clock in the evening until 11.30 o'clock for the arrival of the Canadian Pacific Railway train. I would have arrived at Truro about the middle of the day and would have waited there until the Halifax train came in at 8 o'clock, when, in the ordinary course of events, I could have proceeded towards my home in Cape Breton; but we have been frequently held up until nearly midnight waiting for the arrival of the Canadian Pacific Railway train. If courtesy as between railways is scarce in Ontario, it is carried to the extreme at our end of the Dominion, and we should like to have matters adjusted so that the long stoppages at our end would be curtailed and part of them applied to Ontario. That would be an evening up that would be satisfactory all round. Only two or three days ago I waited for an hour and a half at Truro for a train. Coming from Cape Breton we were delayed for four hours 'by a little obstacle, a little worse than a cow crossing the track, at Tracadie. We lost our connection at Truro and had to wait for a whole day. This may be nobody's fault and accidents .of that kind will happen; but it is very annoying. For the last six weeks or two months the arrival of trains at Sydney and adjacent points has been far from satisfactory. Sometimes the train from Halifax, only two or three hundred miles away, is 10 hours late. That is most extraordinary, and we cannot find out exactly what causes the trouble. I used to say, speaking facetiously, that when we had a manager with a salary o-f $5,000 or $6,000 a year, we had regular trains; but as the salary increased the time became worse, and if this manager received $30,000 we would have no trains at all. I would bring the size of the salary and the lateness of the trains to the serious consideration of the minister.
I wish to bring seriously to the attention of the minister the lack of proper facilities for the handling of traffic at North Sydney, which is really the eastern Atlantic terminus of the Intercolonial. Of course there is a terminus at Sydney, but there is very little business done there. The main business is done at the terminus at North Sydney, where connection is made for the island of Newfoundland. It may interest the minister to know that until 19 years ago we had not water terminus at North Sydney, and no business was done at that point in connection with the Intercolonial. But in 1897 a wharf was built and the road was run down to the water. At that time there was practically no business between

the island of Newfoundland and the Intercolonial railway, but that business has since grown by leaps and bounds so that now, during open navigation, which is about 10 months of the year, we ship outwards on the Intercolonial about 10 cars a day, sometimes 15 cars a day of freight going over the Intercolonial and on the boats to Newfoundland. When I was in North Sydney the other day, there were about 100 cars standing on the sidings, both down at the wharf and up at the station, waiting for boats to carry the freight to Newfoundland. With the in-coming business I am not so familiar. I am sure that the passenger business from Newfoundland must be a very material source of income for the Intercolonial, while the handling of freight, such as fish from Newfoundland, must be profitable. The business handled at this point is enormous, but the facilities are absolutely inadequate. The wharf is too small. It is not long enough and is not wide enough, and is in no sense commensurate with the business to be handled there. I would ask the acting minister to bring this to the notice of the real Minister of Railways-although if reports be true I am talking to the right man now. There are two, and sometimes three, boats on the Newfoundland route. There is only proper room for one boat at the wharf. The boats trading along the coast that want to land fish and other freight at North Sydney are compelled to tie up at some other wharf and cart their freight back to the railway. This is far from being just to	our people, because they	oughtto have room to	bring	their
vessels alongside the railway and be enabled to put their freight aboard the cars with the least possible expense and trouble. But there is always a Newfoundland boat there, as the service is a daily one. There is land near the wharf that the minister could buy at a reasonable price for the purpose of extending the wharf.
Then, the station at North Sydney is far from being sufficient. About half a mile from the station there ie a little Indian village. I am far from casting any slurs upon Indians or upon poor Indian women, but it is a fact that white people do not care to be obliged to congregate with them at railway stations and in small railway rooms. We have only the one room there, a small room for a large passenger traffic. Passengers are compelled to wait in that room all huddled together, all kinds of people. It is quite proper that the Indian
women and the Indians should have some shelter, but I think it would be well that the accommodation for passengers should be large enough to obviate the crowding of other people in with them as is the case with the present email station at North Sydney. Even apart from any objection of that kind, the station is far from what it should be. It was built 25 years ago when traffic was small and the town of North Sydney and surrounding places were not as large as they are now. There was no provision for Newfoundland traffic at that time, and so the station to-day is far from what it ought to be. I submit to the minister that when he undertakes to enlarge the wharf, which must be done in order to handle the business, he should also give some attention to the enlargement of the railway station.
I wish to bring'up also another matter in connection with the handling of trains in that vicinity. The minister may tell me that I should go to the general manager with the case, but the manager is not available to us; we cannot see him, and, as was well said by the hon. member for Westmoreland ((Mr. Copp), while this road remains a Government iroad, this Parliament, and this Government, and the Minister of Railways cannot divest themselves of responsibility. Members of Parliament will properly go to the minister with their complaints and requests and will expect them to be transmitted to the manager and his staff to have them attended to. The minister is awaTe that the town, from which I come, and the immediate vicinity are pretty well populated. We have a series of villages or towns along the first ten miles of the road from North Sydney. There is in the vicinity a large quarry operated by the Dominion Steel Company, and next to that are the Colonial Coal Company's works, the town of Florence, and the town of Sydney; so that for the first ten miles, there is practically a continuous community. The people there take advantage in the evenings to travel into North Sydney by the train from Halifax, which passes about 7 o'clock, returning by a train which goes out at 9 o'clock. Thus the people can go into Sydney and get back to their homes that night. That is all right, but on Saturday night, which is the night of all nights that the people want to go to town, there is no outgoing train; that is, no train leaves Sydney on Saturday night. If the people in the district go into town by the 7 o'clock train, they cannot get home

unless they drive, which means that they are realty prohibited from getting into town.


John Dowsley Reid: Is the train which leaves Sydney at 9 o'clock the through train going west?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Yes, that is the night train going west to Halifax. The people come into town on the through train from Halifax, and it is very convenient for them to get home on this through train that goes out at 9 o'clock. There is usually standing at the town of North Sydney, an engine, and I think, a few cars, and it would not be very much trouble to make up a small train every Saturday night to run from North Sydney, about five or six miles, passing through these towns, so as to enable the people who go into North Sydney by the 7 o'clock train to return home. I think such a train would be a paying proposition; it would certainly be a great convenience to the people. Saturday night is pay night, the night on which people want to do their shopping, and it would be regarded as a fine stroke of business if the minister put on that local train. I trust he will give these suggestions his best attention.


George William Kyte: I desire to add a word or
two to the criticisms made by the hon. member for North Cape Breton regarding the imperfect railway connections in the province of Nova Scotia. For instance, the Maritime Express leaves Montreal at 8.15 o'clock and arrives at Truro about noon the next day, just two and a half hours after the express train from Halifax has gone on its way to Sydney. The consequence is that persons living in certain sections of the province of Nova Scotia, off the main line of the Intercolonial, are obliged to remain in Truro for 24 hours before they are able to get a 'connection for their destination. It seems to me that some better arrangement and some better connection than that might be devised. As I have said, the Maritime Express leaving Montreal at 8.15 reaches Truro at noon the next day. It seems to me that some arrangement could be made by which that train could leave Montreal earlier, or by which it could make better time to reach Truro at 9.15 or 10 o'clock on the following day, and thus enable passengers from Montreal to connect with the day train for points to the eastern terminus of the Intercolonial railway. When the Ocean [Mr. McKenzie.!
Limited is not running between Montreal and Halifax, it takes passengers who live in certain portions of eastern Nova Scotia four days to travel from points between Ottawa and Montreal to their destination. It take>s me four days to travel from 'Ottawa to the constituency in which I live, and that is true of other hon. gentlemen occupying seats in this House, as well as of a large proportion of the travelling public who belong to eastern Nova Scotia. That seems to me to be a rather intolerable condition of affairs in this day and generation.
I fancy there is no portion of settled Canada where the people have a worse railway connection than in the province of Nova Scotia. Taking into account the fact that that province, and particularly the island of Cape Breton, has contributed so heavily towards the revenues-of the Intercolonial road, it seems to me that the Department of Railways should give to that section of the Maritime Provinces the best possible railway accommodation.
I desire to say a word or two with regard to the accommodation that is given to the public on the trains. At the present time, a passenger taking the train at Sydney at twenty minutes to seven o'clock in the morning is unable to get anything to eat until that train reaches Truro at five o'clock in the evening. As often happens, if that train is late, as was the case when I was down in Nova Scotia a few days ago, passengers who have had their breakfast at 6 o'clock in the morning are unable to get a bite to eat until 7 o'clock in the evening. Up till a year ago or so, a dining car was attached to the express from Sydney going West at Port Mulgrave, and it afforded accommodation to the passengers who desired a midday meal. When that dining car was taken off, one was attached to the day express at Antigonish, which gave passengers an opportunity of getting their meal at a reasonable time. But the dining car has been taken off altogether. I think it must be eight or nine months since there was a dining car on the day express from Sydney going to Truro. That is a great inconvenience to the travelling public. A buffet service existed on the chair and parlour cars, but I understand that even that has been cut out. It certainly was cut out on the two occasions that I travelled on the Intercolonial during the last couple of months. This is a complaint which is very general among the passengers on the Intercolonial railway. I am not making the complaint personally. In recent

months, I have not travelled very often on the Intercolonial, and I was not particularly inconvenienced by reason of there not being a dining car attached to the train; but it is a complaint which has come to me from commercial travellers and others who frequently patronize the Intercolonial railway.
There is one other matter of criticism, and that is with regard to the manner in which parlour cars on the Intercolonial railway are kept. It is a matter of very common *complaint that the parlour cars and the Pullman cars on the Nova Scotia end of the Intercolonial railway are not kept as clean as they used to be. I am not directing this criticism towards any particular official of the Intercolonial railway; I am merely stating it as a fact. I have heard ladies make very loud complaints within the last couple of months that the parlour and chair car service of the Intercolonial railway between Sydney and Halifax is not looked after as it was in the past. The complaints appear to me to have considerable foundation. As I have said, I do not'pretend to make any charges against any person in particular, but it seems to me that a little better supervision ought to be exercised by the official who is in charge of that particular department and thus remove what I regard as a very considerable ground of complaint.


John Dowsley Reid: Answering the hon. member for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) first in reference to the port of North Sydney, I realise that it is a very important point on the Intercolonial railway. The matter was brought to my attention during the last two or three months on account of the congestion of the trade with Newfoundland.' There was a very large number of cars that could not be unloaded. Cars were detained because the boats plying between North Sydney and Newfoundland could not carry the freight on account of the large quantity to be moved. We put on one or two Government steamers in order to relieve the congestion at that point. I was also informed that this trade has grown very rapidly within the last few years. I know that my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) has been looking up the question of trade between Newfoundland and Canada, and I suppose the Reid Company, who own the Newfoundland railway, have been trying to increase -the trade between the two countries. That port has grown to be a very important one. Of course, they must have
facilities necessary to perform the work that may be required of the railway. I have not had it drawn to my attention before that the facilities were so inadequate as the (hon. member has stated. The Estimates that were made out for the Intercolonial Railway system and this, of course, is part of it, were taken up by my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) at the beginning of the session. I had nothing to do with them, and I know that he cut out many important items tfhat he would like to have had in the Estimates for the Intercolonial railway on account of war conditions and the desire to keep the vote down qs low as possible, and this may have been one of them. Unless there is an item in the Estimates, the hon. gentleman knows it will be impossible for us to go ahead With the work that may be neoessary during the coming season. However, I will be very glad to look into it and see if anything can be done during the coming year to improve the facilities there. With reference to the station at North Sydney, the same thing applies. It should" not be mudh trouble to provide a little more accommodation, such as is suggested by my hon. friend, if that is all that is required, -so long as it does not involve the building of a new station.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It might be enlarged.


John Dowsley Reid: I will also take that matter up. With reference to the train service between Sydney and North Sydney, as I understand from the hon. gentleman, the train for Montreal leaves every night except Saturday night. As I have understood the situation in Nova Scotia, the train does not leave on Saturday night because it does not run through on Sunday.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is a train on
Sunday night, but not on Saturday.


John Dowsley Reid: I know. There was a time
when they did not run right through on Sunday. I do not know whether that system prevails now, although I am aware that it has been changed in part. But, I will look into that complaint and see if it cannot be remedied. I realise that in all these large centres such, for instance, as. Sydney, people like.to get in from the country and near-by places on Saturday night., It is a very important night for people who desire to come in and do their trading, and I can see that it is quite an inconvenience if there is no train out on Saturday night. There are, of course, difficulties in operating a suburban seryice such as that which

has been mentioned for one night only. There is a rule among railway employees, in fact, it is an agreement, an understanding .with the railway unions, that if you start a crew out, even for a ten mile run, they receive a day's pay. It may be an expense that the traffic would hardly justify. But, it is well worth looking into and if I can overcome the difficulty I shall be very glad to do it. I stated a moment ago that I would like to see the people in the neighbourhood of a large centre have the advantage of coming into town on Saturday night. The large railways try to arrange a Saturday night service to enable people to get into the cities. *
With reference to what the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) stated about the train leaving Montreal for the East, the connection at Truro, and missing the connection by an hour and a half or two hours, if you start the train an hour and a half earlier you miss the connections from the west. There is one hour between the arrival of the Canadian Pacific and Grand Trunk trains and the departure of the Maritime Express. There is an hour allowed the people from the west to get the Maritime Express, and there is a great deal of dffi-culty in making change because if you start the. train earlier you miss the connection from the west. The hon. gentleman made another complaint which I cannot understand, but I will get the information at once. He has stated that in going west there, is no service by which a passenger getting on the train about seven in the morning can get anything to eat until five in the afternoon. There was a time, as he states, when a dining car was on, but that has been taken off, and I conclude from the remarks, he has made that there is not even a restaurant provided along the road at which passengers may get something to eat from the time of starting at seven o'clock'1 In the morning until arriving at five in the afternoon.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: There is no
restaurant east of Truro.


John Dowsley Reid: That is what I understand,
and therefore a passenger starting at seven in the morning and arriving at Truro at five in the afternoon can get nothing to eat,, because there is no restaurant and there is no dining car service.. I think that is what the hon. gentleman said .


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Quite so.
'Mr. REID: That being the case, I will take the matter up and see if we cannot

remedy this condition at once. The hon. gentleman also said that the Pullmans and the chair cars were not kept clean. Of course, any complaints of that kind, whether in this House or out of it, should be brought to the attention of the manager or of the minister, and should be remedied at once. That is one thing that must be looked after properly. It may be that those in charge of the work are not giving it the care they should.


Alexander William Chisholm: Would it not be possible to have the train from Halifax to Sydney delayed about an hour and a half so that connection might be made at Truro? I realize that it would delay the arrival of the train at Sydney an hour and a half, and that might not be so convenient for my hon. friends who are on the main line, but those who, like myself, go over the Inverness road, have to remain over at Truro until the next day. It occurred to me that it might be possible to arrange some method by which the train from Halifax might be delayed an hour and a half, and some'other changes might be made with respect to the train from .Montreal!. I quite realize that the traffic from the West is important, and that there is only an hour between the arrival of the Western train at Montreal and the departure of the train for the Maritime Provinces. If that time were shorts ened a little, and the train starting from Halifax were delayed an hour or an hour and a half, the connection might be made. This is very important to the constituency I represent, becau.se the Inverness road is a branch of the Intercolonial. As it is at present all passengers on the Inverness road have to remain over at Truro for the night.


John Dowsley Reid: It is well to have all these complaints on record. I will take this matter up and see if any better facilities can be given. It might however necessitate the changing of the whole time-table. It is the wieh of the Minister of Railways and myself to give the best possible service, but it is difficult to get'a time-table . that will suit everybody. I have known us to change the time-table an hour only, and that would upset the connections with the branch line trains. We wish to have as few complaints as possible. When the manager is drawing up a new time-table I will have him look into all these com-

plainte thoroughly, to see whether any better service can be given.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If it would be of any assistance to the minister I might say something further with regard to the dining car service. It is very inconvenient as it is now. For some years the diner used to be attached to the train leaving Halifax in the morning and going east to Sydney and passengers could get their mid-day meal in the diner before the train got to the town of Antigonish. There the Sydney train going west was met, and the diner was transferred to it, about two o'clock. That was rather late, 'but the passengers had ample time to get their meal between there and Truro. If that arrangement was restored I think it would satisfy the public. I also think this way of running the diner would be cheaper than having it go through all the way to Sydney.
Railways and Canals-Grand Trunk Pacific railway-Remuneration to Government Director of $2,000.


George Perry Graham: Would the minister read the director's report?


John Dowsley Reid: I haven't it here.


George Perry Graham: Who is the director anyway?


John Dowsley Reid: Jules Hone.
Mr. GRAHAld:	He ought to be sharp.
It seems to me that if he had been a real good director he would have sent in a report to the Government covering some of the points raised in the 'correspondence with the Grand Trunk Pacific.


John Dowsley Reid: We have a certificate from
the secretary of the board that the director attends all the meetings.


George Perry Graham: All those he is notified
of, but I suppose the really important meetings, at which dangerous matters are dis-. cussed, he gets no notice of, I suppose he makes an annual report?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think he does.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister in his
waking or other hours ever read or seen a report from the director?


John Dowsley Reid: I have never met the man,
I do not know him, nor have I ever seen a report from him.


Charles Marcil: Has the Minister received any report on the advisability of taking over the Quebec and Saguenay railway?


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps the hon. member
could give me some information about that.


Charles Marcil: I see that L'Evenement, the Government organ in Quebec, reproduces a despatch published the night before last by La Patrie of Montreal. The proprietor of La Patrie is one of the directors of the Quebec and Saguenay railway. He announces that the arrangement is completed for taking over this 5 p.m. road and making it part of the Transcontinental, and that the resolution will be introduced in the House in a day or two. I thought the minister might be able to give me some information about that.


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot, for the reason that I have none. I did not even know until the hon. member mentioned it that the proprietor of La Patrie was a director of that Tailway.


Charles Marcil: He was appointed within the last three or four months.


John Dowsley Reid: I have no information on that. The hon. member knows the condition of the Quebec and Saguenay railway. It was started, I understand, for the purpose of serving the people living along the north shore of the St. Lawrence between Quebec and Murray bay, and is very nearly completed.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister know how many miles have been completed?


John Dowsley Reid: I understand that it will not take very long to complete the road and put it into proper shape.


George Perry Graham: The minister must have been getting a lot of information about the road.


John Dowsley Reid: Every one knows about it. If the hon. member does not want to hear any more about it, I certainly am not anxious to continue.


Charles Marcil: I am anxious to know
something about it. I will read this despatch which may clear the way for further information. It is dated Ottawa, May 2:
The fate of the Quebec-Saguenay is practically settled. The Government will present, this afternoon or to-morrow, the first resolutions to the effect of taking over the road to complete it and put it into operation as soon as possible. We do not know yet the details of the intentions of the minister beyond the fact that the Quebec-Saguenay will be added to the Transcontinental railway. This project is not included in the Bill relating to the Canadian Northern railway and the Grand Trunk Pacific.

It is a separate affair, but it is understood that it will pass. It is not expected that there will be any strong opposition.
The people of the district are naturally interested in knowing what kind of a railway it is, how many miles have been built, where it leads to, and what remains to be done. If it is to be a Government railway, I would like to know something about it.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know and I do not say that it is going to become part of the Government railway system. I have no information that that has been decided upon. The hon. member has asked what condition the road is in. Our railway officials know what condition it is in.


George Perry Graham: The minister went over it.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, he went over it and he knows its condition. In addition to that, Parliament has subsidized the road and has paid a large amount of money in subsidies and of course, before doing so, the Department of Railways and Canals must have had a report of the condition of the road. So far as I understand, it was the intention of the promoters of that road to run a railway between Quebec and Murray Bay and eventually it was intended to extend the road to St. Catherines bay, as a winter harbour, opposite Tadoussac. The train service between Quebec and Ste. Anne de Beaupre, a distance of about thirty miles, is owned by the Quebec Light, Heat, and Power Company, and I understand is a good paying railway.


Charles Marcil: That is an electric service.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. From Ste. Anne de Beaupre to Murray Bay is a distance of sixty miles. In that locality there are many people who have been settled there for years and who have no railway service, and this railroad was intended to serve those people. Those who were building the road spent a very large sum of money on it and they got the road almost completed when financial difficulties arose and the road was not finished, although it would have taken very little money at that time to complete it. After the Minister of Railways returned from his trip over that road, I heard his statement in regard to it and I was greatly surprised as to its condition and a's to the service it would give to the people on the north shore of the St. Lawrence. The road is so nearly
[Hr. Marcil.]
completed that it is a pity to leave it in its present condition. For the benefit of the people between Murray Bay and Quebec, the road should be completed; and for our traffic between Quebec and the lower St. Lawrence during the season a road on that side of the river is just as justifiable as one on the south side. That is only my private opinion. There are, I suppose, members on both sides of the House who know the condition of that road much better than I do. I would like to know from my hon. friend (Mr. Marcil) now that he has heard what I have stated, if he, knowing that locality, thinks a railroad is justified on that side of the river where there are so many people, or if he thinks the service they have had for so many years, with steamers crossing to the other side, is all that is necessary for that part of the country.


Charles Marcil: I have never been over
the road, but I understod that a railway, like any other facility, would be a good thing for that locality. It all depends upon the conditions under which the road is built. I understand that the only part of the road now being operated is in the neighbourhood of Murray bay; that from Ste. Anne de Beaupre to Quebec there is an electric service, and that a great deal of work remains to be done on the steam road. I do not know whether the Government is seriously considering the extension of the road from Murray bay to St. Catherines bay and establishing a winter port there. Winter navigation has been declared possible in the St. Lawrence by special boa^p, but it remains to be seen whether the Government will undertake the work or whether any company will be found willing to do it. We have heard of this railway being more or less of a stock-jobbing enterprise; it has been on the Montreal Exchange for a long time, the stock jumping up and down, so that the people have become more familiar with it in that way than with its real work as a railway. I do not know what amount of money has been invested in the road or whether it has been invested by Canadians or not, but I believe a large number of Parisians were glad to get their money out of it. What^I wanted to know was, as the Government papers have been announcing that the road was to be taken over, what pbs'itibn tKe road was in, so that we *yvouldbe position to criticise or to approve! 1	'


George Perry Graham: Perhaps this discussion
in regard to the Quebec-Saguenay is a little premature. The minister has given us his argument why the Government should aid * that road. Perhaps that is also premature- I do not know-but for a man who did not know anything about the road, the minister told us quite a few things, which would indicate, of course, that the Government had been studying the situation.


John Dowsley Reid: I said that those were the
facts in the department.


George Perry Graham: I have been in the department and I know how much study a minister would make of a special line unless something came, up specially in regard to it.


John Dowsley Reid: When I was acting for the
Minister of Railways, not now, but some time ago, the subsidies came due as the road was being built, and, of course, when they came up before me, I would not consent to those subsidies being paid without having a report from the chief engineer or inspector as to the condition of the road. Therefore the whole matter came before me in that way months and months ago, and I knew the condition of the road from those reports. Besides, the money spent on the road must be proved to the satisfaction of the chief engineer before amounts are paid.


George Perry Graham: That is information about the road, but it is not a reason for the minister arguing strongly for the Government acquiring the road. It has been suggested that this road can be purchased under the Branch Lines Act without the matter being brought to the attention of the House until after the purchase is made. But I would call the attention of the minister and of the Government to the fact that that could not Ibe done without treating this House unfairly, and-I say it courteously-without proper respect.


Robert Rogers: Without propeT respect?


George Perry Graham: Yes, it cannot be bought under the Branch Lines Act without treating this House without proper respect. When the Branch Lines Act was before the House the question of the railways to which it could be applied was discussed at some length; I will not read the whole discussion, but I would refer the hon. minister to page 1544 of Hansard of 1915, where he will find a few words in relation to the matter which I Shall quote. The hon.
leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) had been discussing at some length this question of purchase-[DOT]


John Dowsley Reid: Of this road ?


George Perry Graham: No, but the purchase of railways under the Act. And he asked this question:
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	We understand, then,
that this legislation applies to the Intercolonial, only?
Sir Robert Borden:	And to the Prince Edward Island railway. That is thoroughly understood.
So, that neither this railway nor any other that is not a branch line of the Intercolonial or the Prince Edward Island railway could be brought under this legislation, and the Prime Minister gave us asSUrance that it would not be done. I just bring this to the attention of the minister on account of the rumours in the corridors that this transaction has been completed under the Branch Lines Act, and that the particulars need not be brought before the House until next session if the arrangements are not completed until -after the -close of this -session. So, it cannot be done in this way without treating the House unfairly and in violation of the -assurance given by the Prime Minister.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: When this question was transferred from this House to the Senate the same question was put to the -leader of the Senate, and he declared in the most emphatic terms that the Branch Lines Bill did not contemplate adding to the system of the Transcontinental, the Quebec and Saguenay, mentioning that road by name. Also, he stated mos-t positively that the Branch Lines Bill applied only to the Intercolonial. Now, we are to sit on Saturday at two o'clock. We are all anxious to prorogue and go -home. I would advise the -Government not to introduce any more contentious legislation; we already have our hands full. Not that I am against the completion of that road, but there are so many things in, and around, and behind that [DOT] road that really the Government would have to extend the sittings of this House to have considered properly.


Robert Rogers: Replying to the remarks of the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), and also those of the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux), I anj afraid these hon. gentlemen are giving themselves , unnecessary worry about this Government undertaking to do anything behind the back of Parliament, or in con-

travention of any statute in existence. We, as my hon. friend has stated, are a Government of study. We have studied the conditions of the Quebec and Saguenay, and the situation in the West, and in other parts of Canada as well, in connection with proposed railway legislation, and when the proper time comes to make known our conclusions from that study my hon. friend need not be alarmed but that those conclusions will be made known to the House and to the country in a very open manner.
I have promised the House already to-day that any further legislation, or any further matters to be presented to this House, will be announced to-morrow.


George Perry Graham: That does not touch the point I raised.


Robert Rogers: What is that?


George Perry Graham: That if it were brought under the Branch Lines Act it would not have to be announced to-morrow.


Robert Rogers: If the hon. gentleman
had paid attention to what I said, he would have known that I said he was giving himself unnecessary worry about that.


George Perry Graham: The minister's speech
does not lessen it any.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The presence of the
Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) as leader of the House reminds me of something that happened two or three years ago. On an occasion when he was leading the House, I moved a resolution which was to the effect that in the opinion of the House the time had arrived when the Intercolonial railway with its branches should be extended into the non-railway sections of eastern Canada. The question was very fully discussed and a number of members, particularly those from eastern Canada, spoke in the debate. When we were all through, the minister, who had already spoken on the subject, accepted the resolution. The non-railway sections of eastern Canada referred to in the resolu- . tion included certain sections of Quebec, of New Brunswick, and of Nova Scotia. Since then, of course, war conditions have arisen and that is an excuse, and a good excuse I suppose, for the cutting down of large public expenditures. But when we are discussing railway matters, as mover of that resolution, and always bearing in mind that the resolution was accepted by the Government, I think it my duty to remind the hon. ministers that that ac-

eeptance on their part stands on record and that it has prevented me from introducing again a resolution of that kind. When a government solemnly accepts a resolution it assents to the acts set forth in the resolution and should at the earliest moment carry out the scheme for which the resolution was declared. I am pleased to learn from the Acting Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid) that he realizes the very great necessity of giving railway accommodation to the remote sections of this country. I hope that the day is not far distant when every part of this country will have the full benefit of railway connection. I have been a member of this House for a great many years, representing the county of Victoria and the northern part of Cape Breton. In North Cape Breton we are not complaining about railway facilities; we have a railway. But in the good old county of Victoria we have no railway at all. The county of Victoria extends along the shores of the Atlantic, with its splendid fisheries, for a distance of 110 or 120 miles, but in that whole distance we have not one foot of railway. The Government of the day, in 1911, shortly before the general election, had undertaken, by legislation and by vote, to build a railway into the county of Victoria, and a resolution which I brought forward some two or three years was accepted by the present Government. That resolution involved the extension of the railroad into the county of Victoria, and I now impress upon the Minister of Railways that whenever any move is made in the direction of further railway development in eastern Canada, he will not forget that that resolution has been accepted by this House, and that the carrying out of the terms of that resolution will involve the building of a road into the old county of Victoria.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be very glad, when
the matter of further extension is considered, to take up that'matter.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I should like to add my
voice" to that of the hon. member for Rou-ville (Mr. Lemieux). If the Government intends to bring in any fresh legislation we may as well make up our minds to stay here all summer, and I am anxious to get home.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think there is any thing more than has been indicated by the Minister of Public Works. If there is any further legislation to be introduced it will be announced to-morrow.

Consolidation of Railway Act, $2,000.


George Perry Graham: How is that work progressing?


John Dowsley Reid: It is completed, I think, and Teady for presentation to the House.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: How much has that
cost?


John Dowsley Reid: About $7,500.


William Pugsley: With a Department of Justice, with a Minister of Justice, with a Solicitor General, with a Deputy Minister *of Justice, and quite a large number of highly paid officials on the part of that department, with a solicitor to the Railway Department, with a general counsel to the Intercolonial, why should it be necessary to go outside for the drafting of a Bill to consolidate the Railway Act? Why employ outside counsel to the extend of over $7,000, the salary of a judge of the Superior Court for a whole year, and the salary of a Cabinet Minister?


John Dowsley Reid: The solicitor who did this
*work was a long time at it.


George Perry Graham: They usually are.


John Dowsley Reid: As to going outside of the department, no man in the House knows better than the hon. member for St. John the work of the officials in the Department of Justice. They have a staff barely large enough to do the work in connection with the several departments of Government. They are all very busy, and it has always been the rule, in many important cases, to employ some outside counsel. In this case I suppose the Department of Justice had no official whom they could ask to devote his whole time to the consolidating of this Act. No Act is more important or requires more careful study than the Railway Act, and it was necessary to employ an experienced solicitor to deal with it. I think the work has been well done, and the consolidation is now ready for the House.


George Perry Graham: I am told it will be necessary for the members to watch that consolidation very closely, as in many important points a sufficient number of words have. been changed to alter the meaning of the Act. Not being a lawyer I should not know the significance of the changes, but I take this opportunity of telling legal members of the House that when the 'Bill comes up for consideration it will be necessary to investigate the changes very closely.


John Dowsley Reid: There is no doubt that there have been a great many changes, but I understand that the solicitor who has this work in hand consulted with the Chairman of the Railway Commission.


George Perry Graham: What is his name?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Samuel Price.


William Pugsley: Where does he live?


John Dowsley Reid: He is now the Chairman of the Ontario Railway Commission. He originally came from St. Thomas. He is, from what I have learned, a very able man. At all events the work was carried on in consultation with the Chairman of the Railway Commission. When the Bill comes before the House it may be materially improved by the many able legal gentlemen who are members of this House. The consolidation as prepared will be at least a working basis, and I think it is one that will not require many changes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is this simply embodying into the "hew Act the amendments which have been adopted since 1903?


John Dowsley Reid: And any changes that may be deemed necessary in the old Act.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Reverting to the St. Peter's canal, what progress is being made with the work and when is there a chance of the capal being opened? Who is really the contractor? Is it a corporation or an individual?


John Dowsley Reid: The contractor is a person named W. H. Weller. He took the contract when it was tendered for, and has been working on it ever since and will complete it. I have this memorandum on the work:
The main portion of the excavation has been completed. The concrete work in the lock walls is nearly completed. Work is proceeding on the remodelling of the old lock gates which will be hung as soon as ready. By this time it is expected that the lock concrete will be fully completed and a small barrier of rock at the canal end of the lock will have been removed.
A few weeks' work in dredging out the west wall of the old lock, after the lock gates are hung will enable us to open the canal for traffic. Some minor works in the Atlantic entrance'and in the prism of the existing canal will be carried out while the canal is in service.
I understand that it is expected the canal will be open for service in the month of J uly.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What will be the depth of water on the mitre sill of the canal after the new works are completed?


John Dowsley Reid: We are not increasing the depth materially; it will be about 19 feet on the mitre sill at low water.


William Pugsley: I should like to say a
word with reference to the acquisition of branch lines. The minister will remember that in 1915 authority was given to the Government to acquire branch lines of the Intercolonial. I feel particularly charged with this duty owing to the absence of the hon. member for Kings and Albert (Mr. Fowler), because I remember that he took a great interest in this question, which, as the minister knows, was first urgently advocated by the late Mr. Emmerson. In the elections of 1911, the hon. member for Kings and Albert, which two counties are equally interested in the acquisition of a certain branch line, deemed the matter of such great importance that he wired the Prime Minister, who was then in Charlottetown,
P.E.I., asking as to the policy of the Government in regard to the acquisition of branch lines of the Intercolonial. The Prime Minister wired hack to the hon. member for Kings and Albert that it was the policy of the Conservative party to acquire branch lines of the Intercolonial, and that telegram was used with great effect by the hon. member for Kings and Albert in his candidature. I do not find any fault with that hon. gentleman for asking the question, or with the Prime Minister for replying in the way he did. But I have had a good many communications sent to me in reference to the taking over of these branch lines. The people feel that the delay has been very great. I think that only two branches have been taken over by this Government. For the information of the people of the Maritime Provinces, who are more especially interested in the carrying out of this policy which was unanimously approved by both parties in the House some years ago, I would ask the acting minister whether any steps have been taken towards the acquisition of other branch [DOT] lines. I would think that before considering the acquisition of branch lines of the Transcontinental Railway, such as the Quebec and Saguenay railway, the Government ought to carry out the policy which it announced would be carried out in reference to branch lines of the Intercolonial.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member knows that we passed a Branch Lines Act.


William Pugsley: Yes, in 1915.


John Dowsley Reid: Exactly; we made that step forward in order to be able to take over any

branch lines which we desired. We have taken over two branch lines, but the hon. member knows that under the present war conditions we could hardly go ahead and take over more branch lines. The fact that we have taken over two shows that we are carrying out the policy which was announced by the Prime Minister, and we will continue to carry out that policy as soon as conditions permit.


William Pugsley: I 'quite agree with the acting minister that this is not a good time to take on new obligations, but those who have communicated with me havie heard rumours in regard to the taking over of a line which is not connected with the Intercolonial, and which was not included in the Branch Lines Act. As the minister can realize, they would naturally feel very much aggrieved if, before carrying out the policy which was approved by the House unanimously, the Government should make a new departure and take over a road which was not contemplated at the time, and which the Prime Minister, in 1915, expressly excluded from the contemplation of the Act then passed. I do not think that the people of the Maritime Provinces are anxious to have new obligations entered upon at present, but they feel that, before the Government take on 'heavy obligations in other directions, their claim ought to be considered. For instance, I had a letter the other day from a gentleman who takes a very great interest in the acquisition of branch lines in New Brunswick, which is included in the Act which was passed in 1915. He had heard rumours about large advances to the Canadian North'ern Railway Company and Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, more especially to the Canadian Northern, and he thought it would be a very great hardship upon the people of the Maritime Provinces if the Government should commit the country to further obligations with the Canadian Northern and be forgetful of the claims of the districts which are served by these branch lines in the Maritime Provinces. They feel that all parts of the country should be treated with equal consideration, and that the different railway companies should have equal justice.
Railways and Canals-chargeable to capital -Quebec bridged-construction, $3,450,000


John Dowsley Reid: I was to give a statement as to the Quebec bridge. With reference to that I may read a memorandum from Mr. Monsarrat, the chief engineer, dated Mont-

real, December 2, 1915. The memorandum
is as follows:
I beg to report progress in connection with the construction of the Quebec bridge for period ending November 30, 1915, as follows:
Superstructure. Since my last report the work on the north shore has progressed rapidly, and at the present time the entire cantilever arm has been completed, thus completing practically all the steelwork for the north shore, which is in accordance with the programme mapped out by the St. Lawrence Bridge Company. There still remains a certain amount of riveting and erection of sidewalk, which will be done next year.
Work has already been started on the dismantling of the erection traveller, which will be taken down and re-erected at Sillery cove, to be used in connection with the erection of the suspended span at that point.
On the south side the programme of the contractor was also carried out, and practically all steelwork completed up to and including the main post over the main pier. There still remains a certain amount of riveting to be done on this work, but this will not be done until next season. Portions of the steel falsework supporting this anchor arm are now being removed and will be used in connection with the erection of the suspended span.
Next year the south cantilever arm will be erected, after which the suspended span will be floated into place and suspended from the two ends of the cantilever arms. The work of the erection of the suspended span will be commenced early in the spring and will be completed by the time the cantilever arm is ready to receive it.
The status of the work in the shop and field is as follows:
Tons. .
Haw material ordered from the mills 69,038 Raw material received at the shop... 66,908
Fabricated at the shop	 56,145
Members delivered at the site..	..	55,434
Steel erected and partially riveted. 36,087 Net weight of erected bridge, estimated at	 65,000
Removal of unused steel. The contractor for this work entirely completed his contract [DOT] to our satisfaction.
All of which is respectfully submitted,
(Sgd.) C. N. Monsarrat, Chairman and Chief Engineer.
. I want it to be noted that this report is dated December 2, 1915, so that when the chief engineer says that the south arm will be erected next year, it means during the present year, 1916. Mr. Monsarratt told me that they are now well on with the work. The statement of expenditure is:
Total expenditure to March 31,
1914, including cost of collapsed bridge	$12,732,062 71
Expenditure to March 31, 1915	2,816,305 10
Expenditure to Oct. 31, 1915 ..	2,709,253 24

Of the above amount $10,473,346.38 has been expended on the new bridge.


George Perry Graham: I do not quite see why the minister puts into the cost of this
bridge the cost of the bridge that collapsed. We made a certain contract for this bridge, the contract was on estimated quantities and it will cost not a gTeat deal' more than the estimate, but it will cost some more. The real cost under this contract has no connection with the collapsed bridge so far as the value we are getting under this contract is concerned. When does my hon. friend expect the bridge will be completed and this span floated into position?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Monsarratt told me that he expects to (have the last span in this fall, but of course, it will not be ready for operation by that time. It is going to take some time to do the riveting and finally to complete the structure. Speaking roughly, the bridge will be completed so that you can go across it this fall if there are no mishaps. With reference to the statement of my hon. friend as to why I included the expenditure on the collapsed bridge, I merely read what is in the memorandum before me, as supplied by the officials. However, $10,473,346.38 is all that has been expended on the new bridge, and, of course, the collapsed bridge has nothing to do with it. I suppose that has been carried on in the books and they have just copied it.


George Perry Graham: I understand from the minister that they continued the construction of the bridge along the lines laid down originally by the commission. Mr. Monsarratt is the engineer, and with Mr. Monsarratt there is Mr. Snider-


John Dowsley Reid: A commission was appointed; I think by my hon. friend (Mr. Graham). That commission remains exactly the same except that Mr. Snider died.


George Perry Graham: Who took Mr. Snider's place?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Monsarrat said the work was so nearly completed that they did not require another commissioner, but in order to carry out the commission as elated it was necessary to appoint some one else, and, speaking from memory an Order in Council was passed appointing Mr. H. P. Borden one of his assistant engineers.


George Perry Graham: He is the secretary of the commission.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: Is Mr. Modjeska still on?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I have no fault to find with that. The difficulty in the first place

was to got a board of engineers that would agree on a plan. After the. plan was agreed upon and the method of operation arranged for, 1 imagine they got over that part of the work for which they wanted Mr. Snider's advice particularly. Mr. Snider was one of the oldest bridge engineers on the continent, older, I think, than even Charlie Macdonald. I am glad to know that the work is going along successfully. There was a change made by the new commission in the style of the piere. Has the chief engineer reported if that has been found satisfactory?


John Dowsley Reid: He told me that it was found perfectly satisfactory. They were enlarged, I think.


George Perry Graham: I took perhaps a greater interest in that particular work than in anything that came before the department when I was there, because it was so difficult to get it started. I think the minister might intimate to the company that they might let members of Parliament know the day they intend to float this span into position. It is-a matter of great interest. The House ought to know that this is the largest bridge of its kind ever constructed in the world. Its completion is of great interest to the people who have paid any attention to it, and more particularly is it of interest 'to the engineering world. Each end of this bridge is being constructed separately, one on the north side, and one on the south side, and the floating span will be floated into position. It means that this span will be floated into position at a point 160 feet above high water and the work of placing it in position must not occupy much more than a few'seconds, or at all evepts a very small fraction of a minute because the tide must be taken advantage of to bring down this floating span and when it is put into position it must be put in there properly and fastened almost immediately 'or the current will take it beyond its position unless that is done. If other people are as interested in it as I am it would be a kindness to a great many if the minister would let the members know the particular day when the company intends to float that span into position, because it is something they may never have a chance to see again. That is the only point at which I tremble about the Quebec bridge, and I will sleep more peacefully at night when this span is successfully floated into position. It will re-
quire the greatest delicacy and skill. If there was still water at that point there would be lots of time to float the span in place; but as it is tidal water the work will have to be done very rapidly. Some people who have criticised this great undertaking have said that it will be impossible to accomplish it in tidal water. I want the minister to promise that he will let me know the day the span will be floated in.


John Dowsley Reid: I quite agree that the putting in of the last span will be a great feat, and I for one should like to see that great event.


William Pugsley: You might take us all.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be very glad indeed
to see that every member of the House gets notice of the day so that if possible we may all be there to see the last span put in. It will be very difficult to do, but Mr. Monsarrat and those who have been constructing the bridge have been so successful with the work so far, that 1 am confident that if anybody can do it they can.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Ocean and river service-P.E.I. winter mail service, $11,000.


Mr. HAZEN:: This is for the winter mail service to Prince Edward Island. It connects with the ice-boat service between Cape Tormentine and Cape Traverse. The vote is the same amount as was voted last year. The expenditure for 1914-15 was $10,996 and about the same amount was expended up to the 31st of December, 1916.
Lighthouse and coast service-construction of lighthouses and aids to navigation, including apparatus, submarine signals, and providing suitable boats for carrying on construction work, $750,000.


Mr. OLIVER:: Is any of that expenditure to be made in relation to Hudson bay navigation?


John Douglas Hazen: No. The expenditure for
1914-15 was $9%,638.16. We are reducing the expenditure this year to $750,000. Up to the 31st of December, 1916, we expended $506,681.70. Out of this vote we provide all the new aids to navigation such as lighthouses, buoys, beacons, fog alarms and submarine signals, including apparatus and machinery, as well as all large repairs to existing aids and the replacing of obsolete buildings and apparatus by equipment suitable for the protection of modern heavy

draught vessels. It also includes the purchase of the plant necessary for the carrying on of the works, as well as the purchase of lands, wharves, etc., the erection of such supplementary works as may be required, the chartering of any boats that may be found temporarily necessary to properly carry out these works; the regulation of traffic in the Detroit river and such other places as may be found necessary, and the administration and operation of the lighthouse department at Prescott.


George Perry Graham: That last item looks bad.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, anything at Prescott is naturally bad. That includes also all the minor works which have been decided on and which will be found necessary and urgent, between the present date and the end of March, 1917. There will also be the usual work to be done in connection with the various depots, workshops, etc., together with provision for extending the accommodation at such places as will be found absolutely necessary. The expenditures for last year will be found in detail in the marine report at pages 3, and 33 to 58.


George Perry Graham: Who supplies the submarine signals?


John Douglas Hazen: A company that has been doing it for years, the International Submarine Signal Company.
Public works chargeable to capital-Marine Department-ship channel, river St. Lawrence -amount required for the completion of specially designed steamer to be used exclusively for testing and sweeping the river St. Lawrence channel.


John Douglas Hazen: There was less expended during the past year than we expected and so we have to revote a portion of the amount.
Ocean and river service-to provide for the construction of two steamers to replace the C.G.S. Quadra, $150,000.


John Douglas Hazen: A few months ago the steamer Quadra came into collision with a steamer of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company off the harbour of Nanaimo and was sunk. After getting the best opinion we could, we had the vessel sold as it lay. The estimated value of the vessel as reported by the officials of the department was $10,000. Tenders were asked for and four or five tenders were received, the highest being $9,500, or $500 less than the amount estimated by the officials of the department. We accordingly sold the vessel as it lay for $9,500. Our officials
were of the opinion that it would not pay to raise the boat and repair it as it was a very old boat and the cost of repairing it would be great. Such a boat would cost usually about $150,000. We propose to replace it with two boats, the total cost of which will be about $150,000. We find that we can discharge the service better with two smaller boats costing in the gross the same amount as the larger vessel.
Mr. MACDONALD.- Where are they to be built?


John Douglas Hazen: In British Columbia.


George Perry Graham: Will each of those boats be a little swifter than the Quadra was?


John Douglas Hazen: They will be swifter and better adapted for the purpose for which they are intended, that is, the lighthouse service. They are not meant for the fishery service. Speed is not an essential, but they must be properly equipped with cranes, lifebuoys, etc.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Are they to be
wooden or steel vessels?


John Douglas Hazen: We have not definitely decided. The plans have not been prepared.
Lighthouse and coast service-amount required to pay a pension at the rate of $300 per annum from the date of retirement to the following pilots:	ElzSar Godbout, Thfiophile Corriveau, Alphonse Pouliot, Emile Couillard, Tretflt' Del isle, Pierre Pepin Dumas, and Alfred Gaudreau, $2,400.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are pensions granted under any regulation?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, a regulation under
Order in Council passed in the year 1906 or 1907 which has been acted upon ever since.
Marine hospitals-Seamen's Hospital Fund, $5,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This vote of $5,000 is being given in compliance with a request made by a large delegation including some members of Parliament on both sides of the House. My hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) and some hon. members on that side, and my hon. friend from Digby (Mr. Jameson) and some gentlemen on this side, some prominent citizens of Ottawa, and some Toronto gentlemen interested in this hospital, called upon us and asked us to give a subscription of a small amount. This- hospital is situated on the Thames and is available to sailors from all parts of the world, including Canadian sailors. After these gentlemen had called upon me they furnished me with further data showing



that this hospital was rendering valuable services to our sailors who from time to time need hospital attention in that part of the world. It is a voluntary institution and among the subscribers is His Majesty the King. Over $30,000 had been raised by private subscription in Canada including a grant of $2,500 made by the Legislature of Ontario. At first, I was somewhat averse to this, but in view of the circumstances . and the desire expressed I decided to ask for this vote. Hon. gentlemen will remember that the hon. member for Guysborough brought this matter up in the House and spoke of the admirable character of the hospital and the splendid service it rendered. His views as a shipping man of experience would naturally have weight with me. After considering the matter, I thought it fair to give the hospital a grant of $5,000 to supplement the subscriptions from private sources.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is the hospital free to all sailors?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes; it is not for sailors of the navy, but for sailor,s of the merchant service.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The clairhs of the hospital were not put forward as being in any way the result of the war?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Nor is it intended that this should form the basis for a yearly grant?


John Douglas Hazen: Not at all. I understand that in consequence of the very generous subscriptions that people have been giving for purposes connected with the war they have bad to curtail the^r subscriptions to this hospital. It is not intended that this should be an annual grant, and as I understand it there will be no occasion to ask Parliament for it again.
Fisheries-to provide for the inspection of pickled fish and the fish canneries, $25,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The Fish Inspection Act came into operation on the 1st of May, 1915. Before that time copies of the Act, with the full code of regulations attached, were distributed amongst those interested on the various parts of the coast, and the general inspector of pickled fish has visited the different sections of the coast and at meetings of the fishermen and packers fully explained the requirements for putting up fish. Over one hundred of these meetings were held. A staff of local inspectors was

appointed. As the Act is not compulsory, no definite idea could be formed as to the extent to which it would be availed of at the start, and consequently as few inspectors as it was considered possible to- get along with were appointed. The Atlantic coast was divided into six districts, as follows :
1.	Cape Breton Island:	inspector, H. H.
Mann, North Sydney,
2.	The south side of Nova Scotia from Anti-gonish to Yarmouth county inclusive, inspector, A. H. Hiltz, Mahone Bay.
'3. The Bay of Fundy counties of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, including Westmorland county, N.B., Inspector, A. O. H. Wilson, St. John.
4.	The Magdalen Islands, Prince Edward Island, and Cumberland, Colchester and Pictou counties, Nova Scotia, inspector, Thomas Doyle, Rustico, P.E.I.
5.	East coast of New Brunswick, inspector, Colson Hubbard, Carafuet.
6.	GaspS Peninsula and north shore of the gulf. No inspector has yet been appointed.
As the packing of barrels for the brand increases it will be imperative to appoint additional inspectors. As the past season was the initial one under the Act, it was not anticipated that many barrels would be put up for the brand. Few of the packers had provided themselves with barrels made in accordance with the regulations. There were, however, some put up on different parts of the coast, as follows:
1,160 barrels of alewives were put up for inspection and of these, 1,158 were found to be in accordance with requirements and were branded, namely, 899 in St. John county, all of which were branded, and 261 in North Sydney, 259 of which were branded.	.
58 barrels of herring were submitted for inspection in Gloucester county, New Brunswick, of which 43 were branded.
110 barrels of mackerel were submitted for inspection, of which 10 barrels were branded, namely, 100 barrels in Kings county, P.E.I., none of which were branded, and 10 barrels in Halifax, all of which were branded.
During the last fall the educational work among the packers and fishermen was again taken up in a personal way by the general inspector. Several of the larger packers in the United States have become interested in the brand and some of them have intimated their intention of requiring all the fish they buy next season to be put up for inspection. Owing to the war the herring fishery on the European side has been reduced to a minimum, leaving the markets on this continent practically bare. The Canadian dealers are realizing this and several of them are arranging to go into the putting up of herring according to regulation next Season. One or two fish merchants went into the business last year and re-

ceived from 100 to 150 per cent more per barrel for their fish than they ever did previously. The Inspection Act, it would seem, has come into operation at a most opportune time; but the greatest care must be taken to have its provisions fully carried out, in order that the brand may become recognized on the markets as standing for the excellence of quality it indicates. If this. is not done, any trade that may be built up will be lost again when normal conditions return.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I desire to call attention again to matters of which I spoke on a previous occasion-the extension of the lobster fishing season in Northumberland straits. I was in Nova Scotia last week and saw the conditions at that time; the ice lay along the coast and fishing was not going on. The same conditions that arose last year obtain this year, and no doubt the need for an extension of the season wil-l be urged upon the minister. I am satisfied that that extension should not be given except under special circumstances; but the conditions of this year ought to justify its favourable consideration.
Mr, HAZEN:	The season does not close
until the 25th of June, and it is too early to say yet what can'be done; but we will watch conditions closely, and if they prove such that the fishermen have not had a fair opportunity to make what would be the catch of a normal year we will certainly consider the question of an extension.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I have merely taken this opportunity to accentuate what I had already said. Along the Northumberland straits for the last two or three weeks the packers have had fnen under pay and have had their supplies ready, but they have not been able to fish.
It is now the 4th of May. There is still ice all along that coast. If they do not begin fishing until next week, the minister will see that the season will be much shorter than it was agreed it should under the recommendations of the commission. Under these circumstances, where people will not have an opportunity of fishing for the period the commission recommended, it does seem to me that a case is made for an extension. I mention the matter now because I understand the minister is going away.


William Chisholm: What steps did the minister take last year to inform himself of the conditions when representa-
217}
tions were made to him along the lines of those just made by the hon. member for P'ictou; and what steps does he propose to take this year to acquaint 'himself with the conditions with a view to meeting the wishes of fishermen?


John Douglas Hazen: When representations are made we ask the inspector to investigate and make a special report for the information of the department, and we will take the same course this year.
Fisheries Marine Biological Board of Canada,


John Douglas Hazen: A new boat is required for the oyster culture business to replace the Ostrea which was built in 1902 and is absolutely worn out and unfit for service. The new boat is now being built at the Government shipyard at Sorel. She will be equipped with oyster dredging apparatus and will be able to do more work, and more effective work, than the Ostrea.


James Joseph Hughes: Some experiments were carried on in connection with the herring business last year, with headquarters at Souris. Will similar work be carried on this year?


John Douglas Hazen: The Marine Biological
Board of Canada is composed of a numbeT of gentlemen, one of them an official of the department, Professor Prince, who is a specialist and a biologist, and the other gentlemen from different Canadian universities, who serve practically without remuneration, simply for their expenses. Professor MacCallum, of Toronto University, takes a great interest in this work. There are -also gentlemen from the university of Acadia, and from one or two others thoughout Canada, There is a biological station at St. Andrews and another at Prince Rupert. During this year the board has been doing very good work on the Atlantic in the continuation of experiments in the hatching and rearing of lobsters, and a continuation df the study of the natural history of the herring. On the Pacific, it has been investigating the question of kelp groves. Kelp is quite abundant along the shores of British Columbia, and it is claimed that it has very economic value , and can be used for many different purposes. The board has also been making, on the Pacific, a study of the natural history of the halibut.
In connection with the study of the natural history of	the	herring, the
services of Dr. Hjort were secured. Doctor Hjort is the director of the Nor-

wegian Fisheries, ,and is one of the most eminent experts on the herring. Keeping in view the vast possibilities of the herring fishery on this side of the Atlantic, it was considered well to arrange for Doctor Hjort's services when it was found out that such could be had last year. In order that he might be able to cover as much of the field as possible, packages of herring caught at different times of the year were procured on different parts of the coast for his examination on his arrival. After close consultation, it was considered that the end in view could best be achieved by placing at his disposal the department's steam drifter " 33 " for experimental fishing, dredging and tow-netting operations, and to arrange for two of the department's steamers to take him over desirable portions of the Gulf and Atlantic, so as to make hydrographic and other investigations. The final arrangement for these trips of investigation was as follows: Three trips were to be made in the cruiser Princess, over the Gulf, to start from Prince Edward Island and go northward to the Natashquan bank on the north shore, thence eastward to the Bay of Islands, Newfoundland, thence to St. George's bay, Newfoundland, and back to the place of starting. Three trips- in the steamer Acadia on the Atlantic coast, going over Sable Island, thence to Banquero, to Miquelon Island, thence over the Green Bank to the Grand Bank of Newfoundland, thence up to Cape Race, thence back to the point of starting. The first trips were to be made in the early part of May, when the herring and other fish were spawning and when winter conditions would obtain in the sea; the second in June when the larvae of these fish would he in the water, and the third, at the end of July or in August, when the distribution of young fish, herring, cod, etc., could he studied, and when the summer conditions of the sea are fully advanced in the different water layers (currents). Owing to the unusually late spring, it was not found possible to start as early as expected, so that only two trips, of investigation could be made, but these were carried out to the eminent satisfaction of Doctor Hjort, and in his opinion, much valuable and interesting information was obtained. The aims of the investigations were:
1. To obtain an understanding of the hydrographic conditions,-temperatures, salinities and currents.
	.
2.	To obtain material for a general description of the floating animal and plant life in the different layers of water on which the important food fish feed.
3.	To ascertain where the eggs and larvae of the different food fish are found, so as to know where they may be caught during the spawning season.
This information should throw light upon the general distribution of fishes in Canadian waters, and especially on the races and growth of the fishes. Also, important information for the same purpose was to be collected by the 313. Owing to the late date that the ice remained in the Gulf, the first trip was made in the Atlantic on the Acadia, which started on the 29th :May. The cruise was a highly successful one, the weather being favourable, enabling continuous work to be done day and night. Temperatures at different depths, and samples of water to enable the salinities thereof to be ascertained, were taken at stations twenty miles apart. The first cruise in the Gulf was taken in the Princess, starting on the 9th June. A second cTuise was made in the Acadia, over the same area as the first one, in July, and in the Princess in August. The 33 was engaged throughout the summer in carrying on fishing and other operations in the Gulf, around Cape Breton, and as far out as Newfoundland.
Associated with Doctor Hjort in these investigations were Professor Willey, of McGill University, Doctor Huntsman, of Toronto University, Doctor J. A. Mavor, of Toronto University, and Doctor Bjerk'an, a Norwegian. All the material collected could not be immediately worked up, and it was not expected that it could be completed before the end of last year or the first part of this one, so that Doctor Hjort's final report will not likely be available for a few weeks yet, but as soon as it is available copies will be printed for distribution.
I Understand that the fishing people of Nova Scotia, the Halifax Board of Trade and others who had the pleasure of hearing Dr. Hjort's addresses, * were very much pleased with the information he was able to give them, and are hopeful of very good results from the investigation which he is carrying on. He believes that the herring which visit our shores, and which are now caught near the shore, aTe not by any means the best herring, and that to get the best it is necessary to go farther out into the sea. It is to ascertain, among other things, where the schools will be found farther out in the sea that this investigation is being carried on.


James Joseph Hughes: Will any work of this
kind be carried on during the coming year or will this work be completed when Dr. Hjort's report is completed?


John Douglas Hazen: I think that the work will be completed when we get his report, in a few weeks. It may be that the report will be such that it may be considered desirable to carry on further experiments, but I do not think so, and that is the opinion of the technical officers' of the department.


James Joseph Hughes: If the work is finished
and the services of Dr. Hjort and his assistants will not be needed this year, I shall refrain from making a few remarks I intended to make. Otherwise I should feel it my duty to make them. Perhaps there is nothing in them, but I know that as a matter of fact Dr. Hjort, when discussing the war, was, to say the least, not antiGerman. I think it would be well, if the matter is not pressing, to suspend the work for a year.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think there will
be any further need for going on with it another year.


Mr. LOGGIE:: I would like to take this
opportunity of drawing the minister's attention once again to the necessity for protecting the lobster fishing industry and preventing, if possible, illegal fall fishing. When this matter was before the House on a previous occasion, the minister remarked that practically no illegal fall fishing went on during last year. I know of one case where 150 cases of lobsters without labels were offered to a buyer. The buyer did not purchase the goods, but I have no doubt that they found a market somewhere. While the labels afford a certain protection, they are not a protection against illegal fishing. What the minister requires to do is to stop the work while it is being done; that is to say, to stop the men who go from the shores, bring their lobsters in at night, and can them in the woods or in their houses. These lobsters will find a market. If they cannot sell them in the fall, they will sell them in the following season. The minister" can never hope to stop illegal fishing by simply employing cutters along the coast, distributing traps, and insisting upon labels on the boxes. He requires to have men who will be fearless in the discharge of their duties, and who, when they find men guilty of illegal fishing, will punish them severely. If this were followed up, the practice might be stopped, but I do not think you can stop it with the procedure which has been
followed for a number of years past. I kniow of this one case; I do not know if the parties were illegally fishing, but I know that the lobsters were offered for sale without labels. I do not know whether they found a purchaser or not.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend has a
thorough understanding of the lobster business, and his views are entitled to every respect, and will have every consideration. It is not an easy matter to prevent illegal fishing. My hon. friend knows that, during the past few years, the officers of the department have been more successful in dealing with illegal fishing than in previous years. The statement made by my hon. friend that 150 cases had been offered for sale without labels, is a serious one, and I would like the hon. gentleman to tell me, not in the House, but in confidence, who were the parties, as that might help us to guard against similar violations in future. The hon. gentleman's suggestion is, I understand, that illegal fall fishing cannot be successfully prevented by the system of patrolling the coasts, but that it is necessary to have officers, at higher salaries than are paid now, who would live outside the district altogether perhaps, appear on the scene at -unforeseen times, and perhaps catch the guilty parties red-handed. I understand that that is. what he suggests.


William Stewart Loggie: They would" have to be there all the time.'


John Douglas Hazen: If they were there all the time, the fishermen would naturally guard against them. If, as in the case of bank inspectors, they did not know when the officers might appear there would be a better chance of catching them. We will give consideration to my hon. friend's views.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister states that his officers have been more successful than in previous years. The reverse is the case in the province of Prince Edward Island. Some officers, I think they are called overseers, are certainly not as active there as their predecessors- were. These overseers are remiss in the discharge of their duties in Prince Edward Island.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Has the minister been in receipt of any protests from persons engaged in the lobster industry in the Maritime Provinces, soliciting his intervention with the British Government with the view of having canned lobsters omitted

from the list of imports prohibited. In former years the British market was the most important market for those engaged in the canned lobster business.


John Douglas Hazen: We have had representations of that sort. Of course, it is a matter that more directly comes within the purview of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I took the matter up with the Minister of Trade and Commerce who, I understand has made representations. Up to the present, no embargo has been placed upon canned lobsters, I understand, and I am hopeful that none will be.
Civil Government-Department of the Naval Service-to provide for one clerkship in First Division, sub-division " B," $2,100; to provide for one clerkship in Second Division, sub-division " B," $800 ; to provide for four clerkships in Third Division, sub-division " B," $2,000.
Mr. HAZEN; The first item is to provide for the appointment of an officer to act as assistant to the Superintendent of Fisheries. This officer is being brought in from one of the outside divisions to assist the super-j intendent in the important work of this branch; It is proposed to appoint this officer at the minimum of $2,100.


George Perry Graham: Who is he?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Ward Fisher. The
second item is to provide a vacancy for the appointment, at the minimum salary of $800 of an officer in the hatcheries branch of the fisheries. It has been necessary lately to employ a temporary officer for this purpose. The third item is to provide for the appointment of four stenographers at the minimum salary of $500 yearly. A large number of temporary stenographers are at present employed, and owing to the great inconvenience of changing these clerks repeatedly it is considered that fouir permanent appointments should be provided for.	,


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I assume that Mr. Fisher will be employed in the Fisheries Branch.


John Douglas Hazen: Entirely.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Has he any qualifications for the position?


John Douglas Hazen: He was a fishery inspector in Nova Scotia, and his services as	such were	so extremely
satisfactory that the officials of the department recommended his appointment.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: His qualifications
must have been gained very speedily be-

cause it is only within the last few years that he changed from being a fisher of men to a fisher of fish; he was a clergyman in western Nova Scotia. He seems to have been anxious to serve his country for a consideration and he is made a fishery inspector largely on account of his political activity, so I understand. What particular duties is he performing in the department?


John Douglas Hazen: His duties are to assist
the Superintendent of Fisheries. The work of the department has increased very largely. The superintendent needs his assistance in order to carry out successfully the work of his department. Mr. Fisher, in addition to being a preacher, was a newsman, and therefore is an all round man. At any rates his services are thoroughly satisfactory to the fishery officers of the department; they regard him as a very intelligent and competent man.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would have
thought that Mr. Hockin, who was fishery officer in Northumberland straits, would have been-


John Douglas Hazen: He is a gentleman of over seventy.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I did not know that he was that old.


John Douglas Hazen: He is a pretty old man.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How old is this
gentleman of varied occupations?


John Douglas Hazen: I am told that he is 43 or 44.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: ^e has managed to
combine, within a very brief span, varied and interesting occupations. I fail to see, however, how he could have developed in the space of two or three years the special qualifications that would entitle him to precedence over other fishery officers in the Dominion. Some of my hon. friends from Nova Scotia who are interested in this matter would like to refer to it; or if my hon. friend has any other items perhaps he would just wait a minute.


John Douglas Hazen: These are all the items.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who is succeeding
him in his former position?


John Douglas Hazen: The appointment of the
local inspector has not been made yet. It will be made in a very short time.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What are the counties in his district?


John Douglas Hazen: From Halifax west.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: On the south shore, or does he take in the Bay of Fundy?


John Douglas Hazen: On the south shore and up into the Bay of Fundy. His district would take in Kings and Digby.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Has he passed the Civil Service examination?


John Douglas Hazen: No, he does not have to.


John Douglas Hazen: He has to get a certificate from the Civil Service Commission as to his qualifications.


William Stewart Loggie: I regret that I was not in when the item to provide for the inspection of pickled fish and fish canneries was under consideration. May I ask the minister what is included in the provision made for the inspection of fish canneries? Has there been any appointment made in connection with this inspection, and what is the nature of the work?


John Douglas Hazen: Wherever necessary we ask our local inspectors in the different localities to inspect canneries.


William Stewart Loggie: That is to inspect the quality of the products of the canneries?


John Douglas Hazen: No; the Act does not provide that. The inspection is made under the provisions of the Canned Food Act.


William Stewart Loggie: The Canned Food Act does not take in canned fish.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. The duty of administering that part of the Act which applies to fish canning establishments was handed over by the Department of Agriculture, which previously administered it, to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. We are using our1 own staff for that purpose now. We have not appointed any new officials or added to the expense in consequence of it.


William Stewart Loggie: Your regular officials are to pass upon how to pack the goods and give directions as to how they are to be packed?


John Douglas Hazen: No, the Act does not make any provision of that sort at all. Under the Act, their duty is to see that the operations in the canneries are carried on in a sanitary manner.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who has been appointed to the steameT Princess which was formerly commanded by Commander Wake-ham?	.


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. Joseph Bernier.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who is he?


John Douglas Hazen: He comes from Chandler,
Gaspe county, Que. Like his predecessor, Commander Wakeham, he is a physician. Dr. Wakeham was a physician when he was appointed. Dr. Bernier is a gentleman who has taken a very great interest in the fisheries, he was recommended by a gentleman in whom we have the greatest confidence and the officials of the department thought he possessed the qualifications to enable him to carry out this work in a proper manner. I do not expect that for a little while he will be the equal to Dr. Wakeham, who had a very long experience and to whom the work was a labour of love. He did a great deal of good along the coast entirely apart from the fact that he was the fishery inspector. He did much work of a benevolent and philanthropic character, and being a physician, and a very good physician, in. many cases he gave free of charge his services to people in out of the way places. I only hope that Dr. Bernier will discharge the duties, of his office in a way that will measurably compare with the satisfactory manner in which Commander Wakeham discharged his duties.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I concur in what has
been said by my hon. friend about Dr. Wakeham. His loss is Canada's loss. He was possibly one of the best officials any Government has ever had and in the distant regions of the Gulf his name is a household word. He was not only an able and experienced physician, but he was a peacemaker. On many occasions Dr. Wakeham was called in by the fishermen to settle any possible conflict arising between them, or between them and the Crown or the department. He was also exceedingly well versed in knowledge of the fisheries. He had been on several occasions requested by the Washington, as well as the Ottawa, authorities to report on the condition of the fisheries in the Gulf. No man was more interesting to listen to than Dr. Wakeham on that special subject. He was also an authority on winter navigation and on the harbour facilities of the indented coast of Labrador. In fact, I do not know how Commander WTakeham can be replaced. I have been for several years connected, politically as its representative, with the county of GaspA- I do not know Dr. Bernier personally. I wish him all success in his new career. I hope that he will never forget that he succeeds-he does not replace-Dr.' Wakeham, and that he will have

to measure up to a pretty high standard if he wishes to become the able public servant that Dr. Wakeham was.


Charles Marcil: I am very glad to corroborate in every respect what the hon. member for Rouville has said about the late Commander Wakeham. I have had the pleasure of coming in touch with him, and I know that he was a very painstaking official, probably one of the best in the department. He followed another distinguished man, the Hon. Pierre Fortin, who was the first commander of La Cana-dienne. and who established the fishery service shortly after Confederation, his work extending away up to the coast of Labrador. Both these gentlemen were of very high standing and rendered valuable service to the people along the gulf of the St. Lawrence. I hope that Dr. Bernier, who is a very young man, will be able to measure up to the position that has devolved upon him. It will be time enough to judge of his worth when we have heard of his actions. I should like to know how Quebec stands regarding the tidal fisheries. Does the department intend giving licenses this year.


John Douglas Hazen: 
William Stewart Loggie: I understood the minister to say that the inspection of fish was turned over to the Department of Marine and Fisheries by the Department of Agriculture, and I think the minister implied that the inspection was of the building only.


John Douglas Hazen: That is so.


William Stewart Loggie: Under the Agriculture Department they inspect the product as well -canned fruits, for instance. The inspector goes around the factory and sends [DOT]samples to headquarters, and they are then passed upon. I understand the situation now. It is simply an inspection of the building that the department carries out, to see whether it is in a sanitary condition. Am I right?
[Mr. Lemieux.J


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


James Joseph Hughes: Are the licenses of traps for bait fish confined to any area, and what responsibilities devolve upon them?


John Douglas Hazen: The area within which a man must fish is stated in his license.
' Mr. HUGHES: Do any restrictions acr company the license, as to whom the bait shall be sold ? If not, the man can sell fish to his friends and refuse to sell to other people. He would have great power in his hands.


John Douglas Hazen: He is a free agent and can sell to whom he pleases. The licenses for lobster fishing are not restricted 9 p.m. as regards the selling of the fish.


James Joseph Hughes: I was speaking of bait fish.	'


John Douglas Hazen: They are not restricted either.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister can see what power that gives the licensee. He could Tefuse to sell to some fishermen and practically put them out of business.


John Douglas Hazen: The number of traps are not limited; any one can get a license.


James Joseph Hughes: What about the area within which a man can fish? In the ordinary harbour there would not be room for more than one trap.


John Douglas Hazen: A man is given a license
to fish in the area for which he applies, provided there are not too many people fishing there already. Speaking oil-hand, I think these traps must not be within 2,000 feet of one another; that is the only limitation.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the licensee to pay a fee?


John Douglas Hazen: Only a nominal fee.


Charles Marcil: Is this a new regulation?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Charles Marcil: It does not apply to the
Baie des Chaleurs.


John Douglas Hazen: There is no trap fishing
there, but if there was, this , regulation would apply to the Baie des Chaleurs.


James Joseph Hughes: The licenses are granted yearly?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Stewart Loggie: What is the rate?


John Douglas Hazen: Five dollars for the .first
ten fathoms, and 10 cents a fathom after that.


James Joseph Hughes: Is that for the leader?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Charles Marcil: The last time these Estimates were up I made the suggestion that on the permanent Shell Fish Commission there should be at least one representative from the mainland of the province of Quebec. The only representative we have now is Mr. Azade Arsenault, of the Magdalen Islands, and he is not at all familiar with conditions prevailing on the north' shore of the Baie des Chaleurs, in the counties of Gaspe and Bonaventure. In the last sixteeen years I have repeatedly piade the request to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries for a change in the dates of the lobster fishing season. 'This industry in the counties of Gaspe and Bonaventure is in a very precarious position, and has been for years past. It is claimed, whether lightly or wrongly, that the dates are not what they should be. It is well into May before the fishermen can start and they are stopped too early in the season. It is claimed that they would do better with an open season in the fall. The officials of the department have had very decided views on this and I do not think they have changed their views in these many years. I think if a competent man from the mainland of Quebec, who was familiar with the conditions, were appointed to this commission, he might be able to bring before the department the views of the residents of that locality. This Mr. Azade Arsenault is a very good man, as far as the Magdalen Islands are concerned, but they are hundreds of miles out at sea, and conditions there are altogether different from what they are in Quebec.
Railways and canals, chargeable to capital- to the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway, for a subsidy for a branch line from a point on its line as located, situated near the Spirit river settlement, to and through the Grande Prairie Land District, Alberta, for a distance not exceeding sixty miles; on the same terms and conditions as subsidies were granted in aid of the construction of certain railways as embodied in the Act 3-4 Geo. V, Cap. 96, 1913, $384,000.


George Perry Graham: I want to protect against this system of providing for subsidies. I am not arguing against the payment of this subsidy; I am rather in favour of it; I am arguing against the system that has been adopted of putting the aid to railways in the Estimates instead, as has always
been the custom so far as I can remember, of bringing them in by way of resolution upon which a Bill will be founded and finally passed. Whether designedly or not, the placing of aid to railways in the Estimates restricts the rights of the members of this House. Estimates are introduced by the minister as a message from His Royal Highness the Governor General, signed by his own hand, and every one knows that the power of a member to deal with an item in the Estimates is very limited; he can move to reduce or to strike out, but from a practical , standpoint he can make no amendment. While that objection might possibly not be serious in this case, .the aid of $15,000,000 to the Canadian Northern is put in the Estimates in this hitherto unheard of way which restricts the members of this House from expressing their views as they would like to, and of making amendments that might be made if the aid were brought down by way of resolution. The same is true with regard to the Grand Trunk Pacific. There- _ fore the members of the House will have to take these Estimates and move for their reduction, or that they be struck out, or else let them go through. In the ordinary way questions of aid are introduced by wray of resolutions which have to go through a certain routine, which routine gives many opportunities to members to discuss them, to vary them, to reduce them, to change them, to make amendments in any way they like. The resolutions, after they are introduced, go before a committee and are taken up clause by clause and amendments can be made, and not one 'case out of a dozen goes through without amendments being moved' and many of them adopted. When the Canadian Northern railway resolution was going through the Government accepted amendments from this side, but here the opportunity of making amendments is veTy much restricted, and members will find, when they come to move, if they do, amendments to the aid proposed to be given to the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific that they are very much curtailed in their privileges, and unless they are prepared to reduce the aid, or to strike it out, they might as well not say anything.
Further, this method of procedure is not fair to the upper chamber, because it practically precludes that chamber from dealing with the matter at all. Whether that was the design or not, that is the result.

Estimates for money expenditures originate in this House, and, after they are passed, they are embodied in a Supply Bill, which is passed by this House and then goes to the Senate. The only power that the Senate has is to throw out the entire Supply Bill that has been passed by the House of Commons, and that would be a pretty serious matter. If a subsidy Bill were brought in by itself the Senate could discuss it, as they hawe a right to do; they could make amendments if necessary, and refer them back to the House of Commons for consideration.


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot agree with all that [DOT] the hon. member 'has said. - It is true that when the Estimates are brought down they must be signed by His Royal Highness the Governor General, but the same thing applies in the case of resolutions; before we can introduce a money resolution the Governor General must sanction.


George Perry Graham: That is a different matter.


John Dowsley Reid: No, it is an expenditure of money.


George Perry Graham: He does not sign it at all?


John Dowsley Reid: As to the subsidy resolutions that have been brought down for many years, the roads proposed to be subsidized were still to be built. There are often amendments made as to the conditions under which a road should be built, or the route may be changed, and so on. But the proposed aids to the Canadian Northern and the Grand. Trunk Pacific are not like the usual subsidies per mile; they are simply loans to pay interest that has been paid, or is payable, in connection with a railway that is completed and in operation.


George Perry Graham: What about this one?


John Dowsley Reid: I was referring to the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific first. I cannot see any objection to bringing the aid down in that way. No amendments could be made to the aid even if it were introduced by resolution. It is simply an amount loaned to the railways to pay interest and the deficit on operating expenses.


George Perry Graham: Does not my hon. friend see that if this aid were brought in by way of resolution, a member could move an amendment to the resolution that the money be given on the condition that the Canadian Northern should do such and

such things? By putting this aid in the Estimates, a member is precluded from doing that.


John Dowsley Reid: A member might move an amendment such as is suggested by the hon. member, but the aid is intended only to pay interest, etc. No matter what the Canadian Northern or the Grand Trunk Pacific may do-


George Perry Graham: It does not make any odds what the aid is for.


John Dowsley Reid: You might move an amendment-that, if carried, would embarrass the roads.


George Perry Graham: That is the right of Parliament.


John Dowsley Reid: A member has the right to move to reduce the amount.


Charles Marcil: Why did the minister not bring the matter down in the ordinary way as a money resolution?


John Dowsley Reid: That might have been done, but I do not see any objection to this method of procedure. So far as the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific are concerned, these aids are not subsidies at all, they are loans at a simple rate of interest, charged up to the road.


George Perry Graham: What does the minister say in regard to my other point? By putting the amounts in the Estimates, the Government has deprived the Senate of dealing with the matter except by throwing out the Supply Bill, which covers all the money required for all the purposes of Canada for the coming year.


John Dowsley Reid: They cannot throw those items out without throwing out all the other Estimates.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is not that a perfect answer to the remarks made by the minister a few minutes ago, and does not it support the contention of the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), that when any moneys are being voted for a special purpose that should be a matter of a special Bill, because it may be subject to a variety of amendments to which hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House may agree? No one cares very much whether the aid is brought in by way of resolution or by placing an amount in the Estimates, so far as the early stages of the matter are concerned, but it should pass through Parliament in the form of a Bill because it is special legislation. I submit that the

' remarks made by the hon. gentleman from South Renfrew are perfectly correct, and they have not so far been answered.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not agree with the hon. member that the Upper House would throw this out.	.


George Perry Graham: We did not insinuate
that it would.


John Dowsley Reid: The conclusion I draw from
the remarks of these hon. gentlemen is that perhaps that would be the result.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Even though they concur in these votes for $8,000,000 and $15,000,000 I would still say that this is not the proper course to pursue.


John Dowsley Reid: We will have to agree to
disagree on the subject of procedure, so far as these items are concerned. But as to the item now before the committee


George Perry Graham: That is a subsidy.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, that is entirely different from the other two. This is a subsidy for the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway for a branch line, from a point on its line as located, situated near Spirit river.t I may explain that the matter of railway facilities for the handling of grain produce and supplies required by the settlers of the Spirit river settlement and through the Grande Prairie district of Alberta was brought to the attention of the Government, and it was decided that, as the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company had a charter to build a line to these districts, a vote should be given to cover a line sixty miles in length, the same to be given under the conditions of a subsidy granted under the Subsidy Act. A few words in answer to the hon. member for South Renfrew. If I remember well, last spring the question was brought before the Minister of Railways of having this sixty miles of railway completed at once, for otherwise the large quantity of wheat in that section could not .be brought out. After the facts had been laid before the minister, and an assurance given by the railway company that they could not complete the railway without a subsidy, he agreed to give them a subsidy for this line. The reason why it is put in this form is that the Minister of Railways had decided that this year, vowing to war conditions, he would not bring in a subsidy Bill.


George Perry Graham: But he grants this subsidy.	,


John Dowsley Reid: This is really for last year.
Many subsidies have expired the renewal of which is asked for, and some want new ones. But this vote is made to assist in getting the grain out of that country during the past season, and, as we are not having any regular subsidy Bill, the amount was put in the Estimates to carry it on the terms here mentioned. It was simply because of the promise the minister had made that we would not have a subsidy Bill that this is proposed in this form. Of course, if there had been other subsidies, a regular subsidy Bill would have been introduced.


George Perry Graham: I want it clearly understood that I am not dealing with these items because they are these items, but I am objecting to the principle on which they are submitted to Parliament, and I am taking the earliest possibility opportunity of doing so. The principle is wrong. As explained by the Acting Minister of Railways this subsidy is put in this form merely to protect the Minister. of Railways against the direct violation of a promise, but it protects him only by violating that promise in an indirect way. He told applicants that he was not going to have any subsidy Bill, and they, of course, thought he was not going to give any subsidies-for that must have been the idea they took away with them. He now proposes this way of giving a subsidy which ought to be given through a Bill.


John Dowsley Reid: This was earned.


George Perry Graham: The minister is not to be excused for violating his pledge by bringing this subsidy in, as it were, by the back door. I want to go on record as objecting to this as a yiolation of a principle. If this is to be made a precedent hon. members on either side are going to be deprived of opportunities which they now enjoy to deal in a practical way with matters of this kind, and the Senate will have practically nothing to say about aids to railways or anything else. These things ought to follow the safe parliamentary practice and ought to go through the regular appointed stages. A money measure has to go through stages which other Bills have not to follow. The measure is first brought down in the form of a resolution, and then a Bill must be introduced founded on the resolution, and the Bill cannot be altered materially from the resolu-

tion on which it is founded. The Bill must go through first, second and third readings and be passed by the House, and then must be sent to the Senate. Ample opportunities are afforded for hon. members to discuss the measure and to deal with it, and of those opportunities they will be deprived if these subsidies are allowed to go through in the Estimates.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member is quite
right as to the procedure, and there is no desire to vary that procedure. But this item, as I have said, was agreed upon long ago, and the minister informed the officials of what had been done. Many other lines, in the Wefst particularly, are asking for subsidies, and man/ of them ought to be granted subsidies as soon as we are in a position to do so. But, as we are not able to take them up this year, and as this is the . only item, we thought that under the circumstances not much fault could be found with it. When more subsidies are to be granted, I have np doubt the minister will bring them in in the regular way as outlined by the hon. member for South Renfrew.


Frank Oliver: This particular item relates to a railroad development in the constituency I have the honour to represent. From the discussion that has taken place it will be apparent to the committee that there probably appeared to the Government to be some special reason why this aid should be given. I desire, if I may, to take a little of the time of the committee to explain the railroad situation in that part of the country. In that explanation will appear, to some degree, from one point of view at any rate, the reason for this special aid. The minister has already stated that there was a settled and productive area having a surplus of product which had to find markets, or the people had to go broke. It was a matter of extreme urgency to give that settlement railroad facilities during this season. Circumstances were such that it was possible to give facilities, but it was necessary that substantial assistance should be received, and the minister has said that a promise was made that this assistance would be giveh. At any rate, I wish to inform the House that whatever the minister has said here to-night in regard to the desirability and the urgency of the construction of this piece of road is absolutely supported by the facts. I have pleasure in informing the House that the rails have

actually been laid, and that although the line has not been ballasted, traffic is now being carried over this piece of road, to the great advantage of the large and important and productive settlement that it is intended to relieve and to connect with the outside world. But I think it would not be fair to the House or to the country, and it would certainly not be fair to my constituency, if I did not take this opportunity of placing before the House the general reasons which led up to this proposed subsidy. It will be within the knowledge of those who have followed the question, that during the great rush of immigration and expansion that took place in the prairie regions of the West in those better years before our friends took office, the prairie area of the Saskatchewan country was practically occupied; it had been practically alienated; it is now in private hands, not in the bands of the Government. There are still vast areas of timbered land or partially timbered laqd available for settlement, but there are practically no prairie lands available in the Saskatchewan country, speaking of the southern part of the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. But there is in the Peace River country, in northern Alberta, a number of prairie areas of a very desirable character which have attracted settlers to such an extent that they have gone in to a distance of 300, 400 and 500 miles, over roads through wooded country, and have opened up the country, established farms, created production, and carried that production to such an extent in the case of this Grand Prairie, and in other areas that I desire to mention, that they cannot go any farther unless they can get aq outlet for what they have produced. The Provincial Government, recognizing the needs of the people who had already gone into the country, entered upon a policy of railroad guarantees with a view of ensuring the productive development of this Peace river country. A federal charter was held and was acquired by one J. D. McArthur, a charter under the name of the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company. This charter was to carry a line from Edmonton to the British Columbia boundary, passing a few miles south of the main stream of the Peace river, at the point Dunvegan. The company were fortunately able to realize on the guarantee of the Provincial Government to an extent that enabled them to carry their construction as far as Spirit river, 357 miles from Edmonton, 15 miles

south of Dunvegan on the Peace river, into the centre of a very desirable prairie area known as the Spirit river prairie. But at that point the railroad was 50 or 60 miles from the central point of the Grand Prairie, a large prairie area and was really of no very serious value to the settlers on the Grand Prairie. Certainly it was an advantage to have a railroad within 60 miles instead of 300 miles, but as a matter of actually producing grain and selling it at a profit, the railroad might just as well have been almost anywhere else. The Provincial Government gave a guarantee for this 60 mile branch to Grand Prairie, but in the present condition of the world's finances I presume the company would have had difficulty in financing for the construction of that road, had it not been for the assistance promised by this Government.
The Peace river itself is one thing; the Peace River country is another thing. The Peace river itself is a large and navigable stream, navigable for a stretch of 500 miles, from the foothills of the Rocky mountains to the chutes below Vermilion, and on each side of that river there are large prairie areas which we speak of as the Peace river country, areas which are desirable for settlement and which attract settlers by reason of the fact that they are prairies. A settler going into occupation, of these areas does not have to clear his land and does not have to wait so long for production as if he went into the wooded country. Because of this advantage of getting prairie land, the settler is willing to travel far from railroad communication. He is willing to undergo certain, hardships, finding his compensation in the advantage that he does not have to clear his land of timber or wait many years for the clearance to take effect so that he can get crops. That is the reason why the Grand Prairie was settled so far in advance of railroad construction.
But there are other areas in the Peace river country also which have been settled in advance of railroad construction, and it is to the condition of these areas that I desire to call the attention of the House and the Government for present or future consideration. On the north side of the Peace river, extending from Peace river crossing for a distance of sixty miles to Dunvegan, is another area of beautiful prairie country, occupied by settlers, producing largely, and still, so far as the main line of the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway is concerned, just as far from reach of the actual advantages, of railroad communication as the Grand Prairie was, because these people are on the opposite side of the Peace river, and the valley of the Peace river is a tremendous impediment to travel, being a valley 800 feet- in depth. In order to reach the navigation of the Peace river-because it will be observed that the route of the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway did not contemplate reaching the actual valley of the Peace river-and at the same time approximately reach this large settlement on the north side of the Peace river, the Provincial Government, or possibly this Dominion Government, chartered a branch line of railroad leaving the main line of the Dunvegan railroad at McLennan Junction and reaching the Peace river in a distance of fifty miles. The charter, I believe, carries the railroad across the river, and the Provincial Government gave this branch a guarantee of $20,000 a mile, the same as in the case of the main line and the Grand Prairie branch. But the railway company was unable, under present conditions, to market the bonds, even with the Provincial Government guarantee. The Provincial Government believed it was so urgently necessary that that railroad should reach the navigation of the Peace river, and give approximate advantages of railway connection to those settlers on the north side of the river, that a year ago the Provincial Government raised a loan on their own credit, and then gave a loan to the railway company of 80 per cent of the actual cost of construction of that 50 miles, in order to link up the 500 mile stretch of navigation on the Peace river with the railroad system of Canada at Edmonton. As the result of the action of the Provincial Government in making that loan, the company has been able to construct that 50 miles of road, and the rails to-day are either actually at the bank of the Peace river or within a mile or two of it. At any rate, by reason of the action of the Provincial Government in guaranteeing the bonds of the railroad from Edmonton to McLennan, and by making an actual loan of 80 per cent of the cost of construction from McLennan to Peace River Crossing, the country has the advantage of the linking up of the navigation of the Peace river with the railroad system of Canada, and the settlers on the north side of the Peace river have the railroad brought at any rate to one end of the

settlement, the river intervening between them and the railroad.
Tip to the present, then, the situation is that by guarantees amounting to $8,000,000, and by a loan, which I will estimate at $1,000,000, with aid from this Government to the amount, approximately of $300,000 in cash, there has been opened up to settlement that great Peace river country. By the use of the credit of the Provincial Government, we have 400 miles of actually constructed railway, which is absolutely necessary to bring that country within range of profitable and actual settlement. -With the assistance of this Government we have 50 miles more, bringing another large important productive area within the range of railroad communication. What I want to bring to the attention of the House is this: The Provincial Government has put up, as I have said, $9,000,000 in credit and cash for the development of the Peace River country, as far as it has yet gone. This Government has put up between one quarter of million dollars and half a million dollars, or will do so when this vote is passed. Now let me point out that the responsibility for the development of the western country does not rest properly upon the provincial governments. It does rest properly on this Federal Government. It is the Federal Government that owns the land, the timber, and the minerals. It has absolute control and ownership of all the natural resources of that country, and it is recognized to be responsible for its settlement and development by the control and direction of immigration. It may be asked, why did the Provincial Government go so far in order to secure that development for which it was not responsible. The Provincial Government is responsible to the people who are there. The people had gone into that country, in spite of all the difficulties, and they turned to the Provincial Government and said, you must give us assistance in ordeT to enable us to live in this country into which we have gone. The Provincial Government is responsible to that extent, but I desire to lay before the House my opinion, and I do so without consultation with the Provincial Government. I am responsible for the representation of the constituency in this case. In my judgment, the Provincial Government has gone approximately as far as it can go in that work. Whatever their intention or desires may be,
I do not conceive that the Government of the province of Alberta can continue indefinitely to guarantee railroad bonds and expect that guarantee to remain of serious

value. A time must come when, if the. guarantee is continually extended, it will be reduced in actual value, and therefore be of no effect.
I desire to take this opportunity of saying to this House that in my judgment the responsibility for securing the development of the Peace River country, as well as of all the new countries of the West, rests primarily upon this Government; and while giving this Government credit for the aid it has given in this case, I propose, so far as I can, to place upon it the full responsibility for the further development of that country, and to come right down to details and make certain suggestions, if I have the privilege of doing so.
The suggestion I make is this: The railroad having reached the eastern bank of the Peace river, in order that the country on the west side of the river may be developed-a country, remember, 500 miles in length; 200 miles up stream to Hudson's Hope at the Rocky Mountain portage, and 300 miles down stream to the chutes below Vermilion-it must have railroad communication. You pannot have profitable production and development without railroads. Therefore, a railroad must get across that river before we can see the development of that country. On the west side of the Peace river, as I have said, there are 60 miles of solid settlement, and there is no better settlement in. the Dominion than that which lies north of the Peace river. Those people just as urgently need railroad facilities as did the people of Grand Prairie last year, but there lies between them and the present railroad terminus on the right bank of the river the width of the river, with the difficulties of climbing the hill on the west side over and above the ordinary cost of constructing a line of railway through level country. I have not consulted	engineers on	the	subject,,
but my information is that the Peace river is a stream 1,800 feet wide at high water, that it has depth approximately of 16 feet in the channel at low water, that it has a rise of 20 or 30 feet and that ice forms in the winter of not less than 4 feet in thickness. It is evident that to construct a permanent bridge across such a stream is a great and costly work and a work of such a tremendous character that no provincial government could reasonably be expected to finance it, nor could any colonization railway company. If the railroad being built in the Peace river country were of a transcontinental character, then we might

say that the company would be able to finance such a bridge, but a branch road to Peace River crossing is not a transcontinental project, it is purely a colonization project and, stating my own opinion only and not having consulted the company, I cannot imagine that a colonization railroad being backed only by a province, which already has guaranteed railways very largely, is likely to be in a position to finance the cost of a bridge to be built at that point. It would- be a calamity if money were spent in putting a bridge across that river at that point that. would not be of a substantial character. If a company with limited resources, or with limited backing, undertakes to put a bridge across there, it may be tempted to take a chance and make the same error as was made in the case of the Quebec bridge, by having light construction instead of heavy construction with the result that the whole expenditure may be lost. This Peace River Crossing is a geographical strategic point. It is the natural gateway to the Peace river country and any bridge that is built there might very well be built for all time, to use a common expression, and consequently should not be built to be held in the hands of any single railway company to the exclusion of any other company that might wish to enter the Peace river country by that route. Therefore, my suggestion to the Government is that in due course they recognize their responsibilities in the development of the Peace river country, the necessity of railway connection and, particularly the necessity of railway extension across the Peace river, and that they either assume the responsibility of putting a railway bridge across the Peace river at that point or give - such a substantial subsidy to a railway company as will enable the company to put a bridge across	the river
there that	will be a	thoroughly
substantial and reliable bridge, such bridge to be for any other railway company that may desire to cross the river there, subject to reasonable charges for upkeep or use.
Following the construction of .the bridge comes the question of rising out of the river valley. A rise of 800 feet of clay bank necessarily means very expensive construction. I would think that, in addition to the construction of the bridge, there might very well be considered the question of assisting the railway financially to rise out of the valley by a reasonable grade. At
that point, in getting down to the river valley oil the seat side, the railroad company has at present a grade of about 3 per cent or perhaps a little over. That is an abnormal grade. It is not a good working grade for hauling heavy traffic but it is such a grade as was possible with the money that was available. It enabled the company to get their road down to the river practically last fall when, if they had tried to get a lighter grade, they would probably not have been there for a year or two yet. But in any case the problem of rising out of the river valley is a serious one and I would suggest that the Government might very well take that into consideration, in recognizing their responsibility for the development of the country west of the river.
The main thing, the immediate thing, is the construction of the bridge and I would certainly say that aid at the hands of this Government towards the construction of such a bridge' as that might very well go to the amount of $1,000,000. If it were settled that this Government would make itself responsible for the construction of the bridge across the Peace river then settlement would go in west of the river and occupy the prairie all the way from the crossing to Hudson's Hope, a distance of 200 miles, because people would feel that there was a probability of getting railroad communication within a reasonable time. But, with that tremendous river unbridged, there does not appear a reasonable possibility of railroad construction on the west . side of .the river and therefore it is a great ' drawback to settlement because settlers under these circumstances will not go in and occupy the country.
There is another settlement that I wisji to draw attention to in this connection. I have been speaking of a point entirely within my own constituency. I desire to speak now of a settlement that is not within my own constituency, but which immediately adjoins it. Under the arrangements by which British Columbia entered Confederation, in some -way in consideration of the building of the Canadian Pacific, the Canadian Government acquired 3,500,000 acres of land in the Peace river country in British Columbia. It is called the Peace River Block. The area has been set apart, it is administered insofar .as the land ownership is concerned by this Government but it is under the jurisdiction of British Columbia. The Edmonton and Dunvegan railway charter reaches the

British Columbia boundary at this Peace River Block. The Government of Alberta has guaranteed its bonds to that point. Immediately west of the British Columbia boundary, in the Peace River Block, is a settlement called. Pouce Coupe, a, beautiful prairie area that is entirely occupied by settlement. There are about four townships of solid settlement on this Pouce Coupe prairie.	It is GO miles distant from Spirit river. A preliminary survey of the railway has been made, the charter has been granted, the bonds have been guaranteed, but I presume that the construction of the railway for that distance will	be	in very much
the same position as the construction of the line to Grand Prairie; that is to say, the guarantee will hardly be found sufficient to enable the company to finance the construction of that piece of road. Now the settlers are there; many of them have been there for four or five years; they are producing on a very considerable scale; and it is necessary that they should have railway communication, or they cannot continue to produce. If we want to increase production in this country-and I understand that that is what we do want-surely it is our business to see that where the people are on the land, and production has been undertaken, the railroad facilities should be provided that are absolutely necessary to success in the matter of production.
Let me go a step further and discuss this question of railroad extensions and of aid to railways. At the present time there is a considerable feeling that Canada has gone too far in railroad building, ibas spent too much money, and that we should restrict our efforts in that regard in the future. I do not want to argue the question from the point of view of those who hold that idea, but from the point of view of the man upon whose exertions and upon whose success the future of this country absolutely depends; and that is the man who has gone out beyond the frontier of present settlement, in order to bring into cultivation and production land that without his enterprise and without his labour would be of no value either to this country or to anybody else. That man cannot succeed unless he gets railroad facilities; he cannot provide those facilities for himself; some one must provide them for him, or he cannot succeed. And naturally and necessarily it is to the great mass of t'he people at large, who aTe looking for their prosperity to the de-velopmentr of that area the settler is
[Mr. Oliver. 1	1
occupying-it	is to the nation at
large that we must look for the financial risk that must necessarily be taken by somebody in order that that man may have the possibility of success brought within his reach. We may have over-built in some particulars, we may have over-spent in some particulars, we may have shown lack of good judgment in some particulars; but when a man has severed himself from the associations of his lifetime, and taken his wife and children out into the wilds, fifty or a hundred, a hundred and fifty, or two or three hundred miles away from those facilities which necessarily go
10 p.m. with railroad communication, and is fighting the battle with nature-for his own benefit, it is true, but still for the nation at large-it is no use telling that man what you have done in other places. What you must do is to provide that man with railroad facilities, or he cannot succeed, and then you cannot succeed because he did not succeed.


Robert Rogers: I do not know that I have much fault to find with what my hon. friend from Edmonton has said in regard to conditions in the northwestern portion-of the province of Alberta. As a western representative, I am one of those who believe that this Parliament has never yet fully recognized the importance of the development of the great prairie provinces of western Canada. It is true that in the early stages of .construction assistance, by way of land grants, -and so on, was given to the Calgary and Edmonton, and the Regina and Long Lake railways, and, perhaps,- one or two other branches in the Prairie Provinces. But for many years no assistance had been given towards the construction of railways in any one of the three Prairie Provinces, except that this Parliament seemed to recognize the great importance of the construction of transcontinental railways, and, contributing in that direction, had probably brought about the construction of one transcontinental railway too many. The fact remains that the local development of railways in the Prairie Province of the West has not in the past received proper consideration from the Parliament of Canada. For example, it was very necessary about the year 1900 that the people living in what was then know as the Northwest Territories, west of the province of Manitoba, should have an outlet to lake Superior for the transportation of their grain. There

was a pressing need for this; railroad rates were so high that it was almost impossible to hope for the development of that western country without providing cheaper means of transportation for its products. When the Government of the province of Manitoba undertook to remedy this condition, they found that it would be necessary for them not only to guarantee bonds for the construction of lines in several directions within the borders of the province, but also to guarantee the construction of a line in Ontario for a distance of something like 290 miles. They gave the guarantees; the road was constructed, and freight rates were brought down by something like 4 cents a bushel or 4 cents a hundred pounds -I forget which [just at the moment- which was of great benefit to the people of. western Canada. This policy of guaranteeing bonds of railways was followed by the new provinces when they were created; it was followed by this Parliament shortly afterwards, in the construction of the Transcontinental. The item now before us is, I think, the first direct grant by this Parliament in the last twenty years, to any branch line in any one of the three Prairie Provinces. 'I endorse what my hon. friend from Edmonton has said as to the necessity not only of this grant, but of additional grants for the purpose of bringing about the construction of branch lines in the different provinces of the West; and in no section of the country, I think, is there greater need for such assistance than in the Peace River district west of Edmonton. We have there what is recognized by every one who has studied the possibilities of that country practically an empire in itself. We have millions upon millions of acres of the finest land that can be found in probably any part of the civilized world; and having to-day three transcontinental railways, none of which has a sufficient amount of traffic to maintain it as it should be maintained, we must see to it that feeders are constructed in the various provinces to supply those railways with additional traffic, thus relieving this Parliament of being called upon year after year to grant aid to those railways. Were it not for the war conditions and the circumstances which exist at present, I am free to acknowledge that, if the matter were in my power, this Parliament would be asked to continue to subsidize in a large measure the construction of railways in the Peace river district, as well as in other districts in Western Canada. The present conditions are the only reason why this Parliament is not 218
asked even at this session to give assistance towards the construction of those lines of railway. There is this justification why those lines should be built, that the people of Canada own and control all the lands in all the provinces in the West; that they own and control all the timber and all the minerals, and in that respect those provinces are therefore differently situated from the other provinces of Canada. Consequently it is our duty and responsibility to assist in the construction of those lines for the development of those great prairie provinces, and, above all, for the development of the Peace river country, where we have such magnificent possibilities. I trust that in the near future this Parliament will recognise its duty towards Western Canada in this respect.
As regards the criticism offered by my hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) as to the manner in which the Estimates for the assistance and loans proposed. to be given to the Grand ' Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern have been presented to Parliament, it is quite true that perhaps the common practice in, this Parliament in the past has not been followed. I would, however, like my hon. friend and other hon. members to understand that conditions are entirely different from those which have existed in former years. We find it necessary, on account of war conditions, in view of the heavy responsibilities involved, to keep those railways from defaulting; and in view of the heavy assistance which has been granted in the past, we have been obliged to place in the Estimates a further item of $150,000 to provide for an inquiry into the general railway system of Canada to consider the advisability of the nationalization of 'those two railways in particular, and probably of other railways in the Dominion as well. This is an important undertaking, and the items in the Estimates represent simply temporary assistance that this Parliament would be obliged to give were we to take over those two railways to-day, and until we have made a thorough investigation into the general railway system, we do not know whether that might or might not be the best course to pursue. With a national system of railways in Canada, we in the prairie provinces of the West would have reason to hope that this Gov-eminent would recognize the importance of that great territory, and that it would secure the construction of the additional branch lines so necessary for its develop-



ment and to make profitable the great transcontinental railways that' are already in operation. That is the position we take. We have introduced the items in this form and when they are reached they will be discussed in the House by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance in detail, and the House and the country will be given every particular that they should or could expect to receive.
I want to assure my hon. friend from South Renfrew and this House and the Upper Chamber that there never was a thought, and I never heard it mentioned by any of my colleagues, either in, council or elsewhere, that by the introduction of these items in the Estimates, the powers of this Parliament or of the Upper Chamber might be curbed in any way, and I would not wish to have any misunderstanding about the matter. We acted in the manner in which we did, giving a direct and temporary loan, in order to maintain the conditions that exist to-day, believing that it would not be desirable at the present time to allow any default to take place, especially when we have in view the wider idea of bringing about the nationalization of the railways of Canada, with a view of ending, once and for all, this procedure of the coming to Parliament, from year to year, by the various railways of Canada, asking for assistance. I am sure when the matter is explained in detail, it will meet with the approval, not only of this Parliament, but of the Canadian people as a whole.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister given
any thought in regard to the personnel of the commission to be appointed to inquire into this matter?


Robert Rogers: The idea has not yet been considered.


Charles Marcil: Would the proposition
mean the acquisition of the railways by the Dominion of Canada?


Robert Rogers: That would be for the
commission to consider.


Charles Marcil: That -would be a pretty
heavy undertaking just now.


Robert Rogers: Well, we will have to have very heavy men on the commission.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I see that this resolu-
. tion refers to chapter 96 of the Acts of 1913. I have looked up the Act and I do not see anything in that legislation which refers to the Canadian Pacific railway, that will
[Mr. Rogers.!
help out in this connection. I thought it was the charter of the company and I cannot find anything in it that has any bearing on the subject at all.


John Dowsley Reid: The Subsidy Act of 1913, 3-4 George V, Chapter 96.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is what I have
here. I have not read it carefully, but glancing over it I do not see that it relates to this matter. I will pass it over to the minister.


John Dowsley Reid: I find that it was a misprint of " 96 " for " 46," which is what is shown in our memorandum. I move that the item be amended by striking out " 96 " and inserting " 46 " in lieu thereof. '


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
George Perry Graham: To have an opposition is worth while sometimes; criticism is good.
Railways and Canals, chargeable to capital -Welland ship canal

construction, $4,500,000.


George Perry Graham: Is this all for the Welland?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. For the construction
of the Welland Ship Canal five contracts were awarded. The first was awarded to the Dominion Dredging Company. The estimate of the work to be done under that contract was $3,487,725. They were paid, up to 31st December, for work done by them, $1,523,910, so that their work is nearly half completed. The second contract was awarded to Baldry, Yerburg & Hutchinson. The estimate of their contract was $5,377,185.75, and they have been paid $2,300,680; not quite half of that contract is completed. Section 3 was awarded to O'Brien & Doheny & Quinlan & Roberston. - The estimated amount of their contract was $9,540,050, and they have been paid $2,207,970, so that less than twenty-five per cent of their contract is completed. Section 4 (a) was awarded to McGuire & Cameron. The estimate was $88,030.


George Perry Graham: Where was that?


John Dowsley Reid: Section 4 has not yet been
let, but this portion was urgently required and therefore the contract was made.


George Perry Graham: Is it dredging work?


John Dowsley Reid: Making an entrance into the old Welland canal, the entrance being blocked by the work on section 5. Section 5 was the last contract awarded, and it was given to the Canadian Dredging Company.

The estimate was $1,945,788, and they have been paid $842,850.


George Perry Graham: Who compose the Canadian Dredging Company?


John Dowsley Reid: I know the names of several who have been mentioned as members of that company; Mr. Finn, Mr. Pratt, Mr. Playfair, Mr. Shepherd.


George Perry Graham: What has been spent up to date on these contracts?


John Dowsley Reid: The amount paid to the contractors is $6,948,141. But the total expenditure up to 31st October, 1915, was $7,796,260.47. That includes engineering, operation, maintenance, right of way, and cement.	[DOT]	.


George Perry Graham: How much do you pay
for cement?


John Dowsley Reid: We have a blanket contract for the whole work at $1.85, made some time ago.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister any
reason to change the estimate of the cost of the work? What was that estimate?


John Dowsley Reid: The estimate as stated by the minister at the time was about $50,000,000 for the whole work when completed. The officials tell me they have no reason to change that estimate.


George Perry Graham: Too soon it will be
changed all right. If I remember rightly, the location of the , canal and the depth of the sill are so arranged that when it is desired to deepen the canal further, all that will be necessary will be to dredge the canal between the locks.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: The depth over the sills will be what?


John Dowsley Reid: It will be 30 feet on the sill and 25 feet in the canal.
Mr. .GRAHAM: What is the depth on the sill at the American Sault canal ?


John Dowsley Reid: 25 feet.


George Perry Graham: I understand that they are making their harbours 26 feet, perhaps in some cases 30 feet.


John Dowsley Reid: The water on the sill in the American canal at extreme low water is 24* feet. That occurred last year, when the water was very low, and may not occur again for many years. In the harbours they are making a little greater depth, as
218*
is necessary, because they can drag the boats over the sill.


George Perry Graham: Can the minister give an idea when the Welland canal will be completed ?


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot very well do that, because we have not yet let the contract for the other parts, and are not pressing it perhaps as quickly as we would have done had it not been for the war. We do not intend to let any additional contracts for the present year.


George Perry Graham: 
John Dowsley Reid: Welland canal now in use for the passage of vessels. It is well guarded by a great number of the militia. I have been there myself and I ihave seen that the militia are all along the canal that is now being operated. In addition to that, no person is allowed along the canal without a pass, so that it is almost an impossibility for any person, especially a stranger, to get to any part of the canal without some militia man seeing him and preventing him from doing any damage. With reference to the work that is going on, of course that is under construction and the contractors may have foreigners in their employ. We have militia stationed, so far as possible, even around the new works, but some damage might be done to the work. That, however, could only be done to the contractors' plants or to work that they have under construction, and would in no way interfere with the operation of the canal system between ,ake Erie and lake Ontario. That, of course, is what we must be most careful of. There would be no danger of any damage to the new canal interfering with the preseent transportation between lake Erie and lake Ontario. I am satisfied that everything is being done to ensure the safety of that transportation route. All of the items which have appeared in the paper have been brought to the attention of the Government, and we have made inquiries in each case and have found that every precaution is being taken. I do not think it is possible for anything to happen. Of course, even with the best protection, something might happen, but I do not think any fault can be found with what has been done up to the present.


George Perry Graham: I am not finding fault, but I am calling attention to something which did not impress me until I read the Order in Council with reference to the employment of foreigners on munitions work. Then it struck me that, in connection with the Welland canal or the' Quebec bridge, we might be a little lax in our precautions. I;t might not be a bad idea for the minister to call attention to the necessity of exercising the utmost rigour in looking after the parts of these works under contract, because while, technically, any damage to them would be a loss to the contractor, still if the new Welland canal is necessary, the delaying of its construction for a couple of years would be a great loss to the country, and the contrac-

tors would, of course, have some claim arising out of the damage. So it would be very much better to have every precaution taken in advance. I was going to ask the same question in reference to the Quebec bridge, which in its present condition would be easily destroyed if not safeguarded. If it were destroyed transportation facilities would be put back eight or ten years. Is every precaution taken for the protection of the Quebec bridge?


John Dowsley Reid: The Chief Engineer of the Quebec bridge has informed me that every precaution has been taken. However, the remarks joi the hon. member are very important, and I am glad he has made them. I believe that, as a further measure of precaution, it will be well to again remind those in charge of the different works of the importance of taking every possible precaution and I will make it a point to send Hansard to Mr. Monsarrat and to those in charge of other works, and to draw their attention to the remarks of the hon. gentleman. I think that this little discussion, when brought to the attention of the officers in charge, will impress on them the importance of taking every possible precaution for the protection of the different works. If these officials think that further protection is required, it will be their duty to advise the minister of the department in order that the necessary steps may be taken. Therefore, I think the discussion will be of great benefit in helping to carry out the protection that we are now carrying on.


Frank Oliver: Reverting to the Transcontinental item. The other night when we were discussing the transport of grain, the minister was not able to give detailed information as to what had become of the grain that had been carried over the Transcontinental railway last winter, and he promised'to have the information later. Is he able to give us that information to-night?


John Dowsley Reid: I made inquiry of the
general freight agent of the Government railway system, and I received a memorandum. I understand that about 1,600,000 bushels were taken to Quebec. The balance was taken to Montreal and put in the elevators there. The whole object of that six cent rate last year was to fill the elevators in Montreal and Quebec, and, to that extent, to relieve the West. How the grain that was carried to Montreal and Quebec will eventually be disposed of we

cannot tell until we get the returns from the elevators at the opening of navigation. We have no information that any of it has gone other than from these two ports. That was the object of the six cent rate, and it has certainly been of some advantage, if the statement is true that the lake and rail rate at the opening of navigation has been 9 cents per bushel from Port Arthur to Montreal.


Frank Oliver: That would be 15 cents per bushel from Winnipeg?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. I hhve not that from the steamship owners, but I was told by a railway official that the lake and rail rate from Port Arthur and Fort William at the opening of navigation was 9 cents. If the grain were carried from Winnipeg on ine Transcontinental, the rate would be 12 cents to Montreal or Quebec.


Frank Oliver: There is a Government elevator at Halifax.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, a small one.


Frank Oliver: I understood from the debate the other night that that elevator had not been filled.


John Dowsley Reid: The elevator at Halifax is only a small elevator used more for transferring grain.


George Perry Graham: It has a capacity of 500,000 or 750,000 bushels.


John Dowsley Reid: 750,000 bushels, I think, but that elevator is only supposed to keep one or two cargoes on hand. The chief storage is at Montreal and Quebec and in the West.


Frank Oliver: I wish to draw attention
to what appears to me to be a very serious situation, to relieve which, some measures should have been taken by the Government during the past winter. I have a statement here which was given to me by the Minister of Trade and Commerce the other day in reply to a question which I asked when his Estimates were under consideration. He gives a statement of the sto.eks of wheat in Canada on March 31, 1916. It is as follows: Terminal elevators, 25,528,440 bushels.


John Dowsley Reid: That is at Port Arthur or
Fort William?


Frank Oliver: Yes. Hospital elevators,
534,876 bushels. Winter storage in vessels, 2,447,386 bushels; that would be at Fort William. Inter-terminal elevators of the Dominion	Government-Calgary,	629,956
bushels; Moosejaw, 2,820,523 bushels. Saskatoon, 1,632,692 bushels; interior terminal elevators of the Canadian Pacific Railway at Transcona, 633,327 bushels. Public elevators, that would be elevators east of the lakes, 3,326,417 bushels. Country elevators,, that is, elevators west of Winnipeg, 43,996,131 bushels. Flour mills, 5,277,196 bushels. Transit by rail, 23,349,356 bushels. Farmers' hands, 86,854,000 bushels. Total wheat of last year's crop still in Canada, 197,030,300 bushels. Out of a total crop of 309,000,300 bushels. It appears to me that a situation which finds us at the opening of navigation with two-thirds of our total crop still in" our own country, when we must look to market at least two-thirds of it across the water, is a very serious one; and, while I do not wish to harshly criticise the Government, it seems to me that it is a situation which should have been recognized earlier in the season. To repeat what has been said already, instead of the Government being satisfied with utilizing the storage capacity at Quebec and Montreal, which was, of course, in itself, very desirable, there should have been the most strenuous efforts to rail haul as much of that wheat as possible to tide water and to get it across the ocean during the past winter. Unless the wheat is carried across the ocean very much more rapidly during the coming summer than it was during the past winter, the next crop will find us with a large part of this wheat still within the country, and therefore not actually realized upon as it must be if the financiaL condition is to be properly maintained. I certainly cannot help thinking that the Government has not recognized to the full their responsibility when they had available the Transcontinental railway from Winnipeg to handle an enormous quantity of that grain to the ocean ports during the past winter. The Minister of Trade and Commerce has said and repeated that it was not possible to get that grain shipped across the ocean during'the past winter. If it was not possible during the winter, there is no reason to suppose that it will be more possible during the coming summer. The urgency of getting the grain forward over the railroads should certainly have been supplemented with an equal effort to get it across the ocean. The situation is so very .serious that I do not apologize for bringing it to the attention of the House and of the country, or for placing a very serious measure of blame upon the Government which has the fullest responsibility in the matter and, in some degree, the control of the situation in its hands.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member is absolutely right so far as the seriousness of the matter is concerned, but as I stated before, and as his own argument shows, the Government were powerless to do more than they did. If you. could not get it across the ocean, you could not do any more than fill the elevators at this end. The next difficulty that the Government was up against was this:	It was intended when
the Transcontinental railway was started that the Grand Trunk would have engines and cars ready to operate it, but they only had equipment for the western part of the road. We took it over but we have not been able to get sufficient cars and engines to transport all the grain. I was in the same difficulty here the other evening. I explained 'why we could not do more work with the Transcontinental and the reason I gave them is the reason I give to-night, that we did not have sufficient equipment. Then I was met by hon. gentlemen from the lower provinces who criticised us because we took 75 engines and a number of cars from the Intercolonial. They claimed this was an injury to the Maritime Provinces. Seventy-five engines are nothing on such a long road as the Transcontinental. But we hope to be in a better position next winter because we are ordering a large number of cars and engines to handle the western crop in a much more satisfactory-way than we have done during the past winter. It takes time to get the equipment and organization necessary to handle the western crop. I am quite sure that everything was done that could have been done although there is no doubt that much more was required to meet the demand for the transportation of grain from the West.


Frank Oliver: One reason why I am so insistent in bringing this matter to the attention of the Government is that we have two lame-duck transcontinental railways on our hands. The assertion is made very frequently, and is generally accepted, that the reason these are lame ducks is that we have not sufficient business for them to carry. I desire to say that we have the business that should have been carried by these roads during the past winter, in which case they would have served the purpose for which they were created, and I presume that, had they done this businss, they would have helped to carry themselves to a certain degree. Therfore, the argument that we have not the business does not stand on a sound foundation. But the other alternative is that those who are responsible for

handling the business have not discharged their duties with success or credit. I do not wish to press that point, but it has to be one way or the other. There is no doubt that we had the business this year. Perchance we will not have it next year because the fact that we were not able to handle the business this year satisfactorily necessarily restricts production for the coming year; so that we have made a double loss by not being able to handle the business we had in hand during this past year.
Mr; GAUVREAU: I call the attention of the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Reid) to a matter that I think deserves consideration. I refer to the propriety of giving some recognition to persons living alongside the line of the Intercolonial railway who have been instrumental in saving life and property. I have two special cases in mind. I have tried for four years to secure a reward for the men to whom I refer, but I have never been able to succeed. Just a few days before the declaration of war it happened that a poor farmer living beside the Intercolonial railway noticed two tramps engaged in the act of tying something around the rail. He investigated the matter, walked upon the track and found a tube tied taround the rail. He succeeded in unfastening that tube, after which he was chased into the bush by these men. He threw away the tube. Subsequently the inspector of the trackmen was told about the matter, he called upon the man and they went to the bush aqd found the tube. They took the tube to the station, submerged it in water and upon examination found that it contained a powerful charge of dynamite. Two or three hours after that I am told that a train loaded with pilgrims en route to Ste. Anne de Beaupre passed over that road. I have reported the matter to the department, but I have never succeeded in getting a reward for this man. I have the certificate of the trackman who found the tube, and who, upon investigation, ascertained that it contained a charge of dynamite. Four years ago two flat care loaded with rails escaped from the siding upon which they had been standing at River Ouelle and managed to get upon the main line. A farmer who saw these two cars running wild remembered that it was nearly time for the Maratime Express to come along. He ran after the cars, jumped upon them, set the brake and stopped them. More than that, he went ahead, waved his handker-

chief and stopped the Maritime Express. It happened that I was on board the train that morning, and everybody admitted that if it had not been for this man's timely action there would in all probability have been a great loss of property if not of life. I have tried to get some reward for these two men, but I have failed. I hope the minister will realize that these men deserve some recognition at the hands of the Government. We give medals and money to those who save one or two lives. These men, I am [DOT] sure, saved a large amount of property and perhaps many lives. I want to profit by the occasion and to ask the acting minister to take note of these cases and -see if he cannot reward these men >as an encouragement for others to follow their example.


Mr.   HELD@: I -am very glad that my hon. friend (Mr. Gauvreau) has brought this matter to my attention. I had not heard of these cases before. If such a thing has happened-and I am not disputing it at all-I believe these men have saved life, and I am surprised that these incidents have not been brought to my attention, because I think matters of that kind should be reported to the minister himself. If a charge of dynamite was found upon the railway track, or if attempts have been made to destroy property or endanger life as the hon. gentleman has stated, the matter should be brought to the minister's attention. I am glad that the hon. gentleman has mentioned these cases, and I shall call them to the attention of the management, because certainly if these men did these things they are entitled to some consideration.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: I hope the minister will allow me to write to him and state the facts of these two special cases.


John Dowsley Reid: I will be obliged to my hon. friend if he will send me all the information he has.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I have the certificate of the trackmaster who found the charge of dynamite in the tube.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Some time ago the minister said that he proposed to use the surplus of the Intercolonial in the purchase of equipment. What equipment has been purchased?


John Dowsley Reid: 
George Perry Graham: I am told that the general manager has purchased 27 second-hand passenger coaches in the United States, instead of buying them from our own CaT Company. My information from the manufacturers is that they could have taken on this contract easily enough.


John Dowsley Reid: I can hardly believe that 27 passenger coaches have been purchased in the United States. The general manager would have no authority to purchase these without first seeing me. The only purchase the general manager asked me to consent to was for some 8 or 10 Pullman cars that he could get at once.


George Perry Graham: What date was that?


John Dowsley Reid: Within the last three weeks. On some roads in the United States they are doing away with the regular Pullman cars, and as we had this opportunity of getting 8 or 10 we purchased them, because we want to get the service on the -Transcontinental started at the earliest possible moment. It would take a very long time to build these Pullmans with the buffet. We were only able to get 8 or 10 olf them, and they are in first-class shape. That is the only lot of cars that have been purchased in the United States, so far as I know.


George Perry Graham: I have two faults to find: First, the cars were bought in the United States, and secondly, I think it is a mistake for the Government not to seriously consider the advisability of buying no more wooden cars.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree that it is not advisable to buy wooden cars, but we must get the service started between Winnipeg and

the east, and these are the only
11 p.m. cars we can get at the present time. This is the kind of car that is being used throughout Canada; the regular Pullmans are all wooden cars. Our intention is, ef course, to get steel passenger care as soon as possible, and steel freight cars too. But if we ordered steel freight cars now we could not get them in time to haul next season's crop; so we came to the conclusion that it would be better to order 50 wooden freight cars for the present. We shall have to use wooden passenger cars until we can get the steel ones.


George Perry Graham: Now that the Ocean Limited is not running, could you not use some of those coaches?


John Dowsley Reid: She will be running on the 14th of May.


George Perry Graham: That makes a difference. Would the minister kindly let me have a statement as to the care that were bought, from whom purchased, and what they cost?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be very glad to do that.


George Perry Graham: The information I have is that there were more than 10 cars purchased in the United States; I understand 27 were purchased, and the manufacturers are feeling quite uncomfortable because the Government are buying cars over there at a time like this, when we are preaching "production," "patriotism," and "buy made-in-Canada goods." I suppose the Government paid duty to themselves on these cars?


John Dowsley Reid: They will, as the cars come in. I will- get my hon. friend the statement he asks for. We are not asking for any tenders for cars built outside of Canada.


George Perry Graham: You buy them without tender outside of Canada.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman knows what a long time it would take to build these cars. There were only 8 or 10 purchased in the United States.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister's excuse for going to the United States is that the cars were needed at once on the Transcontinental. The general manager must have known a year ago that these cars would be required. Surely he didn't wake up just about a month ago to the fact

s
that Pullman cars would be needed on the Transcontinental. The order for these cars should have been given a year ago, im; mediately the Government took -over the road. The equipment would have been ready by this time, if any prudence or foresight had been shown by the department in this matter, for the car plants of this country have not been busy. The congestion of railway traffic on the Intercolonial during the last few months has been the worst in the history of the road, and it is very largely due to the fact that no foresight is displayed by the management. The acting minister tells us very plausibly that the congestion was due to the moving of large bodies of troops and supplies. That may be true; but the department knew a year ago that these troops and supplies would have to pass over the Intercolonial. Apparently, however, they did not wake up to the fact until the middle of winter, and they were entirely unprepared for the rush of freight. The only excuse the minister can give for the congestion is the hauling of troops and supplies, and he thinks that is a sufficient explanation. It seems to me it is about time the general manager of the Intercolonial looked ahead six months to see what is going to happen in regard to railway matters. If this gentleman who is earning-I will not say earning, but drawing-this big salary cannot devote some time to considering what is going to happen a few months ahead, I do not see what he is getting his salary for. Any railway man at all can deal with the situation from day to day, but what distinguishes a man in any business is prudence, and the capacity to foresee conditions that might arise. The purchase of cars in any shape or form in the United States by this Government is wholly indefensible and absolutely unjustifiable. The same remark applies to the failure to spend the money which six months ago the minister knew he was going to have available in the way of a surplus from the Intercolonial. This surplus was not a thing that accumulated within the last three months; it w^as accumulating every month since March 31, 1915, and as it accumulated the general manager and the minister, realizing the absolute certainty of the tremendous demands in the way of traffic that would be made upon the Intercolonial, should have seen that those things were provided. Does the minister think that the statement which he made a few weeks ago that they needed

Pullman oars on the Transcontinental, a sufficient justification for providing them?


John Dowsley Reid: We gave orders for twelve sleeping cars to be made in Canada.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: When?


John Dowsley Reid: Last spring. Nearly a year ago.	,


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What did your contracts provide for?


John Dowsley Reid: The contractors have not been able to build them in the time specified.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: To whom did you give the "contracts?


John Dowsley Reid: The Preston Car and Coach Company and the National Car and Coach Company. One order was for eight sleeping cars and the other for four. We had to extend the time.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: They knew in advance they would be able to get you to do that.


John Dowsley Reid: That is not a fair statement. We gave them the orders, and they expected to be able to do the work, but they have had more than they can do. We order all our equipment, locomotives, cars and everything else in Canada. So far as.the general manager is concerned, he has known that we wanted more equipment, but until the money is voted by Parliament, or until we know exactly what we have to spend on equipment, we cannot order it. I am satisfied that any minister of railways would bear me out in this, that it has never been the custom to award contracts on any surplus there might be on the Intercolonial until the end of the session in each year. When there has been no surplus, and an amount has been placed in the Estimates for equipment, that has never been done until the end of the session. If the same custom had been followed this year, we would not even yet have been considering the letting of contracts until the close of this session. At the end of last year all those contracts for all those care were let to people in Canada, and the same thing will be done now; not a single car nor any equipment of any kind will be ordered outside of Canada if it is at all possible to get it in Canada, and I am satisfied that everything that we shall require in the way of such equipment can be made in Canada. The ordering of a few cars in the meantime at a reasonable price can easily be justified.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why did you not
anticipate the conditions on the Intercolonial?


John Dowsley Reid: We would have had plenty
of equipment on the Intercolonial if we had not had to take it for the Transcontinental.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You knew that a year ago?


John Dowsley Reid: We took over the Transcontinental on the 1st of July, and it was about the first of May when the correspondence ended, but the hon. member knows that we had no vote by Parliament for any ' equipment for the Transcontinental and we could order only on the amount that was placed on the Estimates or on the surplus, and therefore we were not in a position to order in advance any equipment for the Transcontinental.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why did you not ask for it? You passed legislation last winter by which you took the right to take over that railway.


John Dowsley Reid: We took the right, but the matter was not decided until after the session. According to the Grand Trunk Pacific Act, that company were to have equipment for operating the Transcontinental when it was completed, and we believed that they would have a certain amount of equipment that we could get from them; but when we took over the Transcontinental, we could not get any equipment of any kind, and, therefore, we were compelled, in order to operate it as we have been doing, to take the equipment from the Intercolonial in the meantime until we could furnish more equipment. With the orders which we have given and which will be given, we are going to have a very large amount of equipment which will be used on the whole Government railway system.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Then the real reason for the congestion of traffic and the interference with transportation on the Intercolonial this winter has been that the equipment of the Intercolonial was taken for the Transcontinental.


John Dowsley Reid: It is hardly fair to put it
that way. That, of course, was one reason why we could not have a better service on the Intercolonial. In addition to that, the amount of freight traffic was very large on the Intercolonial this year; in fact, there has never been anything like it in. the history of that railway. I had the figures here

a few minutes ago and the increase in freight traffic was enormous. The passenger traffic was also much greater because of the large number of troops carried over the Intercolonial this year, and on each troop train we had to use two engines. In that way both the passenger traffic, on account of the troops, aud the freight traffic made the traffic on the Intercolonial so enormous that even that alone might have prevented the local traffic from receiving the same service as it had in the past.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister then
admits that his' general manager did not foresee this additional traffic; that he took the equipment in order to operate the Transcontinental and that caused the congestion. Would the minister he good enough to tell me whether he has directed that the lower rates be given to the soldiers who have volunteered for overseas service? I asked him about the matter before the Easter vacation, and I understod that it was carried out, but I found out that it had not been done until a few days ago.


John Dowsley Reid: I took the matter up with
the general manager and I understand the notice has been sent out. I telephoned to the secretary of the department to-night, and he advises me that soldier- on furlough and on public holidays can get return tickets at single fare, that the management was so instructed, and that the rate went into force on Good Friday. The soldiers must present certificates from the commanding officers.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The rate was not in effect on the Saturday after Good Friday, because I saw some soldiers travelling and they told me that they had paid the single rate and a third. Would the minister be good enough to give me a statement of the allotments of coal contracts on the Intercolonial for this year?


John Dowsley Reid: I have here a memorandum made toy the secretary of the department which, if the hon. gentleman desires, I ' will read, in order that it may appear in Hansard. Orders for coal for the Intercolonial and Transcontinental have been closed as follows:
Name of Co.	Where to be delivered.	How to be delivered.	Quantity Gross tons.Dom. Coal Co	
Dom. Coal Co	Sydney	
Springhill June-tion	F.o.b. cars and f.o.b. vessels... F.o.b. cars	120,000 90,000 to 100,000Maritime, Coal, Ry	90,000 to 110,000 15,000it	ii	Minudie Coal Co...	n	* ii 	25,000A. Baile	Levis	F. o. b. vessel	50,000 jAcadia Coal Co....	Stellarton	F. o. b. cars	100,000N. S. Steel & Coal	Co	65.000 60.000do	St. Hyacinthe	do	do Intercolonial Coal	Sydney Mines ..	do	30,000 to 40,000Mining Co	W estville	do	75,000\V. L. Barnes	Maccan	F. o. b. cars	5,000Dr. M. F. Keith....	Adamsville	do	6,000Dom. Coal Co	
Maritime Coal Ry	Springhill Jet....	F. o. b. cars	About 4,000& Power Co	
Minudie Coal Cour-pany	Maccan 	
ii 	F. o. b. cars	5.000	to 10,000 5.000	to 8,000
Kind of Coal.
Run-of-mine	
Screened	-...
Run-of-mine	
Screened	
Run-of-mine	
Screened	
Run-of-mine	
Screened & slack.
Screened	
Run-of-mine	
Screened

Culm
Slack	
Slack (Victoria M.)	
Price.
S cts
3.40
3.65
3.40
3.65
3.40
3.60
4.95
4.80
3.65
3.40
4.62
4.53
3.40
3.65
3.45
At going price 2.15
1 75
1 75


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Purchases from
smaller companies?


John Dowsley Reid: Yres. The idea was to get
all the coal we could in the lower provinces, so there is no trouble about any of them supplying all the coal they can give us during the present year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is the Valley Camp Coal Company of Fort William supplying American coal?	[DOT]


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And is there any
other supplying American coal to the Intercolonial?


John Dowsley Reid: Bailie and the Nova Scotia
Steel Company, I think, supply Montreal too. It is possible they will have to bring some American coal as well. They have the right according to my recollection if they cannot get the coal in Canada to supply American coal.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And what about Bailie at Quebec supplying the Transcontinental?


John Dowsley Reid: Is that the Canada Import
Company? I do not know who manages that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Can they give
American coal?


John Dowsley Reid: If they cannot get Canadian. We are taking all the Canadian coal we can get, and if we take American it is only because we cannot get the Canadian coal delivered. The hon. gentleman knows the coal situation in the lower provinces. They are giving us all they can spare for Montreal. There is the difficulty of getting it
through because of lack of vessels, a difficulty we have never experienced before.
On motion of Mr. Reid, the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
Friday, May 5, 1916.