1916-03-10

FEDERAL PLAN COMA1ISSION.

Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance) :: Mr. Speaker, I beg to lay on the table of the House the report of the Federal Plan Commission on a general plan for the cities bf Ottawa and Hull. The members of the House will be supplied with copies by the Distribution Office, and I have inscribed copies for the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition. The commissioners, are: Sir Herbert S. Holt, chairman; Sir Alexander Lacoste, P.C.; Mr. Frank Darling, F.R.I.C.A.; Mr. R. Home Smith; the Mayor of Ottawa; and the Mayor of Hull. It was the intention to 1011
accompany the report with plans and drawings which it was proposed to exhibit in a room in this building, but no such room is available. We have therefore arranged that the plans and drawings shall he exhibited in the City Hall of Ottawa, on and after Mbnday of next week, and I sincerely hope that members will avail themselves of the oportunity of seeing them.



REPORTS AND PAPERS.

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Additional Order in Council and copies of telegrams in reference to the commandeering of wheat.-Sir George Foster.


[Stage Direction]
Sir GEORGE FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 58, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
He said: The purpose of this Bill is to amend section 207 of the Canada Grain Act by addling to it a clause which shall be named clause "e." I will read the section so that it may he on Hansard. It- is in reference to the powers of the Board of Grain Commissioners:
The board may in its discretion order cars to be supplied contrary to the provisions of this part (a) to elevators that are in danger of collapse ; (to) to places where grain is damp and thereby liable to become damper; (c) for the purpose of distributing seed grain to any point in the western division ; (d) in case where the operator of any country elevator reports in writing under oath that some portion of the grain in such elevator is heated and that in order to preserve such grain it is necessary to ship such heated grain to a terminal elevator for treatment, provided, however, that no relief shall be granted in such last-mentioned case as long as the warehouseman has sufficient room in his building for the rehandling of such grain.
Section " e," which it is proposed to add by way of amendment, reads as follows:
(e) whenever, after due examination, the board considers it necessary and advisable in order to relieve congestion and facilitate the despatch of grain.
It is proposed to give that additional discretionary power to the Board of Grain Commissioners. That amendment was proposed when the Act was last under discussion in the House; it was, I think, passed by the House, but was not passed by the Senate, and so did not become law. Wi'h the peculiar condition of things in the W«3t
[Stage Direction]
at the present time, particularly with reference to congested districts, not only where there is a congestion of grain but where a large portion of that grain is unhoused and therefore exposed to danger and deterioration and loss as soon as the warm weather sets in, it is proposed, under this added power given to the Board of Grain Commissioners, to enable them, despite the other sections of the Act, to order in special cars for -the relief of that kind of distress. I will not go into an argument with reference to it. I think that hon. gentlemen, particularly from the Northwest, who know the present condition of things, will feel that it is necessary that this added power be given in order to provide for relief in these instances. I would ask hon. members to look into the Bill and, when we come to it the second time, put it'through', if possible.
Motion agreed to, and Bill- read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 56, respecting certain patents of Stone, Limited.-Mr. Cockshutt.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries), the House went into committee on the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Vancouver Harbour Commissioners Act, chapter 54, of the statutes of 1913, by providing that the corporation may make by-laws for the imposition of tolls, rates, fees and dues, other than pilotage dues, sick mariners' dues and steamboat inspection fees.
Mr. PUGSLEY:: Before my hon. friend
the Minister of Marine and Fisheries asks the committee to go into the consideration of this resolution, I would like to call his attention to the fact that last evening at the close of business, when the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) was leading the House, he was asked what would be the business taken to-morrow, and the reply was:	" We will go into Supply,
taking up the Estimates of the Department of Labour, Marine and Fisheries," etc. If I had known this resolution was coming up to-day I would have asked my hon. friend to be prepared to give the committee a full statement with regard to the work the Vancouver Harbour Commissioners are

carrying on. I understand that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction in the minds of the people of Vancouver in regard to this work, and I think it is desirable that the reclamation and other work which the commissioners are doing should be fully explained to the committee.


Mr. HAZEN:: We could let the resolution pass, -and I would be prepared to give a full statement on the first reading of the Bill.


William Pugsley: All right, on that understanding.	/
Mr. HAZfiN: I do not wish to enter into a discussion just now, hut my information with regard to the work the commissioners are doing in Vancouver is diametrically opposed to that of my hon. friend.


William Pugsley: There have been some
differences of opinion among the people of Vancouver recently, as instanced by the election there a few days -ago, and perhaps my hon. friend is not correctly informed as to public sentiment with regard to the work of the Harbour Commission.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think my hon.
friend wishes to question the competency of the Vancouver Harbour Commission. If this resolution p,asses, the Bill founded thereon will provide an amendment to the present Act by striking out a few words. The Vancouver Harbour Commission was created by Act of tins Parliament in 19x3, and among other powers conferred upon the commissioners was the power to make bylaws for various purposes. Subsection " t " of section 19 of the Act deals with the power of the commissioners to impose tolls, and is as follows:
(t) The imposition of such tolls, rates, fees and dues, other than pilotage dues, sick mariners' fees, and steamboat inspection fees, as would be payable in the case of a harbour to which the Canada Shipping Act applies.
The amendment strikes out this subsection, and substitutes another, which is exactly the same in every respect, except that the words " as would be payable in the case of a harbour to which the Canada Shipping Act applies " are stricken out. The reason is that the words which it is proposed to strike out preclude the commissioners from making any charges for harbour dues, other than those provided in the Canada Shipping Act; or, in other words, tonnage dues in Vancouver harbour should not exceed the rates prescribed by

the Canada Shipping Act, or a maximum of $5 per entry for two entries, hut not payable more than twice in any calendar year.
It is necessary that further revenues should be obtained if the Victoria Harbour Commissioners are to carry on their work efficiently, and the amendment will enable the commissioners to raise more revenue. Of course, whatever by-laws the commissioners pqss are subject to the approval of the Governor in Council. My information is that this matter has been taken up with the shipping companies whose ships use Vancouver harbour, and who are interested in its development and proper maintenance, and that the amendment meets with their approval. They are anxious that the commissioners should have funds to maintain the harbour properly, and are willing to pay their proper contribution, in order that proper appliances may be obtained for fighting fire along the wharves and docks at the water-front, and that the harbour may be well managed and up-to-date. I shall be very glad to give my hon. friend the information which he desires on the first reading of the Bill.


William Pugsley: I shall be glad if my hon. friend will give the committee that information on the first reading of the Bill, and also, some information with regard to the work at False creek. I am told that instead of enlarging the facilities for shipping there, the commission are really engaged in filling in False creek, for the benefit, I suppose, of some of the railway companies. Another point on which I should like some information, because it' is allied with harbour development work, is the contract which has been1 given to the Amalgamated Dry Dock Construction Company, for the erection of a dry dock, I am told. I am informed that the company has been allowed to take in the real estate for the building of that dry dock, for what seems to be the enormous sum of something over $500,000, and that they will receive interest from the Government upon that sum in the way of subsidy.


John Douglas Hazen: That does not come under my department, but under Public Works.


William Pugsley: It is a Government matter and closely connected with the harbour development. I am told that upon these two matters there is very, very strong feeling among the people of, Vancouver,
and I have been asked to get all the in- 1 formation I possibly could upon the subject.


Mr. STEVENS:: I do not wish to delay the committee at any length, but I am quite certain that my hon. friend from St. John is misinformed on this subject. The work he refers to at False creek is the reclamation of a tidal flat which is bare at every tide. Consequently, the work the commissioners are doing there could not possibly increase the obstructions to navigation. Furthermore, the channel, which was only two feet deep at low tide, is being dredged. to 22 feet, and it will be 350 feet wide. This tidal flat is being reclaimed by the Harbour Commission, and is not being leased or given away to railway companies. The Harbour Commission are going to lease it for industrial purposes, and the grant from the Government to the Harbour Commission includes a clause preventing them from subletting the land without the approval of the Governor in Cbuncil. So that my hon. friend will recognize the item when the matter comes up again, I would point out that this is the very piece of property in reference to which he had an Order in Council prepared when he was Minister of Public Works, giving the land to private individuals to exploit. At that time I was a member of the city council of Vancouver, and bitterly opposed that proposition. We succeeded in sending down a resolution from the city council, and eventually the Order in Council was not passed.


William Pugsley: What was the date of that?


Henry Herbert Stevens: About 1910. I can give my hon. friend the exact date later. The policy of the city council then-and it always has been the policy of the city of Vancouver as a whole-was to have such lands controlled by public bodies, for public purposes, and not alienated by private interests. A few of those whose interests are affected certainly oppose this policy of public control. With the dry dock the harbour commissioners have nothing to do at all. The dry dock is very badly needed, and would have been under construction but for the outbreak of the war. It was granted under the Dry Dock Subsidy Act, and not one dollar will be included in the Estimates which is not carefully checked over by the chief engineer of the department. I do not think that should be considered in connection with the activities of

the Harbour Board. When the matter, if it is to be delayed, comes up again, I shall be most happy to give all the information I have, and the minister also will have much more information to give.


William Pugsley: I shall be very thankful for full'information. My hon. friend refers to an Order in Council which was being prepared in 1910 for handing over False creek to private parties.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The portion to which my hon. friend refers is now being reclaimed by the Harbour Board. It comprises forty-two acres.


William Pugsley: My recollection does not agree with that of my hon. friend. I remember that some question came up on an application from the city of Vancouver to be given control.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is another portion altogether.


William Pugsley: I do not remember any application to give any part of the harbour to the control of private individuals. My hon. friend may be right, because one cannot remember all that took place, but I would be very glad if he would produce a copy of the report in regard to the matter.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Certainly. There is a copy on file.	r


William Pugsley: There must be a report either from myself or from the then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and, as my hon. friend has the matter in hand, probably he will be able to produce a copy when the time comes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes.


William Pugsley: With regard to the dry-dock, which, my hon, Mend says has nothing to do with the harbour, I beg to differ from him.


John Douglas Hazen: Nothing to do with the Harbour Commissioners.


William Pugsley: Still it has to do with the whole question of harbour improvement; and, if the Government is a party to the payment of the enormous sum of half a million dollars for land in connection with the drydock ^way over on the northern side of Burrard inlet-and such an amount is very excessive, because, if

the Government pays 34 or 4 per cent on that for 35 years, it is almost equivalent to the Government paying for the land- the Government will not be so ready to give grants of other moneys for the necessary development of the harbour of Vancouver. Therefore, in the interest of my hon. friend, who, I am told, has had a great deal to do in pressing forward the matter of this drydock, it would be desirable to give to the House and to the public generally all information w>th regard to these matters.


John Douglas Hazen: Certainly.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. HAZEN thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 59, to amend the Vancouver Harbour Commissioners Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
John Douglas Hazen: Yesterday my hon. friend from West Kent (Mr. McCoig) asked a question in reference to Government inspection of hogs, and I told him that I would get the information and give it to him to-day. I find m.y !hon. friend's words reported in Hansard as follows:
Mr. McCoig:	Mr. Speaker, I would like to
draw the attention of the Government to the market quotations in the London Free Press. The quotation for hogs is as follows:
Hogs, fed and watered, $9.50, less one-half of one per cent for Government inspection.
I would like to call the attention of the Government to the fact that hog buyers throughout the country have been deducting the price of hogs one-half of one per cent for the government inspectors. As I understand, the inspectors who are employed by the Government are paid by the Government. If these men have been collecting this percentage, have they been returning it to the Government, or have they any right to make this claim upon the farmers who are selling hogs to them?
I called the attention of the Veterinary General of the Department of Agriculture to the matter, and have received from him this memorandum:
I have been informed that the custom has arisen during the last year or two of deducting from the price paid to drovers or farmers one-half of one per cent on all hogs purchased. This deduction has apparently been agreed upon by the Canadian packers as in their opinion a fair equivalent for the losses which they suffer through animals condemned by Government inspection and pronounced unfit for food.

The money which is thus deducted from the purchase price of the hogs is retained by the purchaser and in no way goes to cover the cost of Government inspectors, their salaries being paid by the Dominion Government. It is misleading to state that one-half of one per cent is deducted for Government inspection; such is not the case. It is deducted for the benefit of the packer and to compensate him for possible losses from condemnations.



ALLEGED SUPPRESSION OF RECRUITING.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. BURNHAM:: I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Militia if he is aware that a propaganda is about to be established in Canada for at least the partial suppression of recruiting. Pastor Russell, an American gentleman, I understand, is about to invade this country with some conscientious scruples.


Mr. KNOWLES:: We will charge him
duty on them.


John Hampden Burnham: The Montreal Evening News of March 9 sets out the matter in detail. To-day I received a telephone message from the colonel of the 93rd Battalion at Peterborough asking me to take some immediate steps to preclude the possibility of Pastor Russell's offending in this way at Peterborough, where he proposes to hold a meeting on the afternoon of Sunday. The commanding officer of the 93rd informs me it is well known that the intention is to inform the people that it is not their duty to enlist, and also to tell them how they may get out of enlisting, and at the same time satisfy their consciences and also the exactions of Holy Writ. Would the Acting Minister of Militia be good enough to take this matter into his immediate consideration ?


Mr. KEMP:: The Government, so far as
I know, are not doing anything to retard recruiting in this country, but are doing everything possible to encourage it. I have not read the article to which my hon. friend has referred.



SEED GRAIN INDEBTEDNESS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Erskine Knowles: I beg to ask the Minister of the Interior a question with regard to the collection of seed grain indebtedness
which we had under discussion over< a month ago. On that occasion the minister was kind enough to promise that he would see that only half of the amounts were collected, even from those who were so unfortunate as to have executions against them. That was done. The minister made a further distinct promise that to those from whom collections had been made in full, he would see that a refund of 50 per cent was made.
The file brought down does not show that steps were taken to fulfil that part of the undertaking kindly given by the hon. minister. I would ask what steps he has taken to see to the refund being made in the cases where one hundred per cent has been collected. And if the matter has unfortunately escaped his attention, will he see to it at once that such a refund is made? I have before me the telegram of February 2, and nothing is said in it on that point.


Mr. ROCHE:: I suppose the hon. gentleman refers to a refund where seizure has ' been made?


William Erskine Knowles: Yes, where collection has been made through the sheriff.


William Roche: What had the hon. gentleman in mind-a refund to whom?


William Erskine Knowles: To the homesteader.


William Roche: I do not think it is the intention to make a refund to the homesteader, I do not think we could legally do that.


William Erskine Knowles: My hon. friend and I will not quarrel about what he said, but I might say that Hansard understood him as I did. The very distinct understanding that I received from the minister's statement was that he would refund in cases in which the homesteaders, against whom there were executions, were compelled to pay one hundred per cent.


William Roche: The hon. gentleman is a lawyer, and I am not; but I understand that where the sheriff has an execution against a' man's grain crop, and makes a seizure, all the money is supposed to be paid to the sheriff. If the Government were to collect all their money as a first lien, and then were to hand back a portion, they could not very well hand it back to the man against whom the execution was made, but would have to make the refund

to the sheriff. We have somu requests from some homesteaders, who have been thus seized upon, to collect in full and not to hand any back to the sheriff.


William Erskine Knowles: We are getting away
from the point. Did I misunderstand the minister, or did he say, that he would see to it that half the amount was refunded, either to the sheriff or direct to the homesteader?


William Roche: That point is now engaging the attention of the department.



WOMAN SUFFRAGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):: I have received a telegram, and see no better way of having the wishes of the senders met than by reading it to the House:
Edmonton, Alta., March 9, 1S16. Hon. Prank Oliver,
Ottawa. Ont.
As we have had no reply to previous telegram, will yo ' as member for Edmonton present the following to Sr R bert Bo den: "The* Women's Institute of Alberta and the Women's Industrial Association of E mon on, at lu cheon to-day wish to know if your Government has definitely decided against woman suffrage. Have we anything to hcpe from you? "
Isabel A. Nobel,
President, the Women's Institute of Alberta.
M. V. Macdonald,
President, the Women's Industrial Association of Edmonton.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I hope my hon. friend will be kind enough to send me that telegram. I will convey the wishes of the ladies to the Prime Minister, and if the hon. gentleman will bear the expense of a telegram, I hope he will beg the ladies to keep up their hopes until they get an answer.



COAL SHORTAGE IN NOVA SCOTIA- LACK OF SHIPS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN (Halifax):: Having received a telegram from Halifax on the subject, I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the fact that the situation there in reference to coal used for bunkering, manufacturing, and domestic purposes is quite serious, owing to the lack of shipping. A great
fMr. Roche. 1
number of steamers owned and operated by the Dominion Coal Company hjive been commandeered by the Admiralty. Only yesterday, another boat owned by them, the Maslkinonge, was commandeered. The effect will toe rather disastrous, as it seems that in many parts of Nova Scotia a greater coal supply is absolutely necessary. In Halifax it is particularly important to get bunkering coal for transatlantic and West India boats. I will hand the exact information to the minister, but generally I would impress upon him the necessity of activity in this matter. I am hardly in a position to criticise the action of the Admiralty, but I have heard it stated toy shipping men in Canada that there was a lack of method and organization in the manner in which some shipping was commandeered, and I understand that their action in Great Britain has been subject to severe comment there. However, I am not arguing that point; but I wish to urge upon the minister the fact that quite a serious situation confronts us, and that we should have from his department the greatest activity possible in order to meet that situation.


John Douglas Hazen: For some time past this matter has been receiving the consideration and attention of my department, and of the Prime Minister also. The vessels belonging to the Dominion Coal Company which have been commandeered have been taken by the British Government for military purposes. The facts of the case, including a statement of the difficulties that may result, have been placed before the British Government through the actirig High Commissioner, Sir George Perley, and are being fully considered by the Admiralty and by the War Office. It is stated by the Admiralty that they regret having to take this course of commandeering vessels in the merchant trade, but are doing so simply because of military necessity made all the greater by reason of the fact that they have to transport not only their own troops but the troops of other countries. I shall be glad to show my hon. friend the correspondence we have h,ad on the subject. There are matters in connection with it that, perhaps, it would not be desirable to make public, but I shall have no hesitation in showing the documents to my hon. friend.
I can only say that the matter has been placed before the Imperial authorities, and I think arrangements are being made by

which, I trust, the inconvenience which the people of Halifax and St. John, even more, I think, than the people of my hoa. friend's constituency, have suffered, will be remedied.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD:: In this connection, I would call the attention of the Acting Minister of Railways (Mr: Reid), though ihe is not now in his place, to a situation of a somewhat similar character that arises on land, in my county and throughout the industrial portion of eastern Nova Scotia. Coal consigned by the coal companies to industries, some of them engaged in the manufacture of munitions, has been expropriated by the Intercolonial railway, and the information I 'have by telegram is that the taking of this coal is resulting in the stoppage of these industries. The necessity weighing upon the railway must be very great if it leads them to the action which produces these results. The hon. member for Halifax having brought the matter up, I shall be greatly obliged if the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) will call the attention of the Acting Minister of Railways to the fact that the coal situation in my province has become very serious, and it is very important that the railways should not interfere with coal consigned to industries.


George Eulas Foster: I will call the
attention of the minister to the matter.



SHELL DELIVERIES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CARVELL:: 
Mr. ROGERS:: I can quite understand
my hon. friend's becoming badly mixed, but I am sorry that he included in his statement such a reputable company as the one to which he refers. This company has one of the best reputations in the Dominion of Canada for carrying out its work.



CALGARY ELEVATOR CHARGES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. BUCHANAN:: I should like to ask
the Minister of Trade and Commerce if any changes have been made in the storage charges at the Calgary storage elevator. If so, what is the nature of the changes, and how long are they to be in effect? I read in the press the other day that the Grain Commission were allowing grain to be stored free in that elevator, in order to relieve the congestion in Southern Alberta. I want to know whether or not that statement is correct.


George Eulas Foster: I think that statement is correct. For a period at least, in order to relieve the congestion and to induce people to put their grain under roof and have it well cared for, they are carrying it free of charge-not free of elevation charges, of course.


Frank Oliver: Not free of elevator
charges ?


George Eulas Foster: Not free of
elevation charges-free of storage.



COMMANDEERING OF WHEAT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: The other day I called the attention of my hon. friend the Minister of, Trade and Commerce to the fact

that the report brought down with regard to tbe commandeering of wheat was incomplete. I am not aware that the report has since been complete.


George Eulas Foster: To-day I put in the Order in Council what had been left out, and the telegrams in connection therewith. With reference to the cablegram mentioned, upon the instructions contained in which we proceeded to purchase the wheat, I am sorry to say that I do not think it is in the public interest that that should be brought down, for the reasons that I have stated; that it is a cablegram which involves practically all the negotiations which were in progress with the Government of Great Britain with regard to sales to the allied Governments. I am quite prepared, however, to let my right hon. friend see that telegram, if he -wishes, for his own satisfaction.



PAYMENTS TO H. P. DUCHEMIN.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. SINCLAIR:: I do not want you to think, Mr. Speaker, that we are too inquisitive on this side of the House, but I wish to draw the attention of the Secrfetary of State to the importance of seeing that his officers give correct answers to the questions put by members. At the last session of the House I inquired as to the amount of money paid to Mr. H. P. Duchemin for his services in connection with the dismissal of officials in the province of Nova Scotia. The reply that I received at that time was; $6,681.05. But, supposing that he might have been prosecuting his work during the year and that more money might have been paid to him, I put the question again a few days ago, and in the answer the amount given this time was $4,675.50, a difference of $2,000.


George Eulas Foster: A difference of exchange.


John Howard Sinclair: In order that the Secretary of State may be able to trace the mistakes, I will read the amounts as given in the Hansard of last year and of this year, reading the amounts for 1916 first:
	1916.		1915.	
Agriculture	$ 75	00	$ 124	60Customs	813	70	1,190	00Interior	15	00	26	31Marine	1,181	25	1,691	10Militia and Defence . ..	36	80	36	80Post Office Department.	817	50	1,242	01Public Works	371	25	441	63Railways and Canals.. . 	1,365	00	1.928	60
I trust that the Secretary of State will look into this matter and give us the. correct figures.


John Douglas Hazen: May I ask the hon. member for Guysborough if he asked for the same information on each occasion? Is it not a fact that in one year he asked for the amount paid Mr. Duchemin for his services, and in the other the amount paid for his services and expenses; and does that not account for the apparent discrepancy?


John Howard Sinclair: The questions were not worded exactly alike, but I think that they have exactly the same meaning. In 1915 I asked for the amount paid Mr. Duchemin for services and expenses, and in 1916 I asked:
That is the gross amount paid to H. P. Duchemin, barrister, of Sydney, N.S., by the present Administration for his services since October, 1911.	.
Mr. CASGRAlN:	Gross amount for his
services.


John Howard Sinclair: Gross amount paid Mr. H. P. Duchemin, including everything.


William Pugsley: That would include travelling expenses.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Not at all.


John Howard Sinclair: If that is the explanation, I assume that the Secretary of State will give it to me, together with the particulars of each item.



INSURANCE COMPANIES EXTENSION

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House went into Committee on Bill No. 34, to authorize certain extensions of time to insurance companies, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
On section 1-extension of time for applying for license:
William Thomas White: The purpose of this Bill is to extend until the end of the next session of Parliament the charters of life insurance companies whose power to apply for license under the provisions of the Insurance Act, 1910, will expire before that time. It is on all fours with the Bill which was introduced and passed into law during last session of Parliament. Its object is to obviate the necessity of the life

insurance companies in question applying for extension by private Bill. The matter was carefully considered by the Banking and Commerce Committee; no objection is made, as far as I can see, to the passing of the Bill.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The legislation is exactly the saane as that of last year?


William Thomas White: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House went into Committee on Bill No. 33, to amend the Bank Act, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.	s
On section 2-:bank may lend on security of live stock:
Sir THOMAS WlHITE: This Bill received very careful consideration by the Banking and Commerce Committee. Some sections were rejcast, and I think that I am- safe in saying that the Bill, in its amended form, as now before the committee, meets with the approval of all the members of the Banking and Commerce
4 p.m. Committee wlho were present when it was under consideration. Some members from the West who took considerable interest in the Bill when it was under discussion on the occasion of the second reading, were good enough to give expression to their views in committee, and I think that nearly all the objections that were suggested have been met.	,
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is the word "horses" in subsection 10 wide enough to cover both male and female species? It might be urged that if you use specific language in regard to any other class of animal, you should use it also in respect of the equine species.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I think the Interpretation Act would cover that.


William Thomas White: I think it would, but my hon. friend calls attention to the context. There is no objection to inserting the words " horses and mares."


William Pugsley: I remember that a very distinguished judge, in addressing a jury,
gave a definition which may be of interest to my hon. friend. He said that the word "bovine" came from the Latin word "bovus," *which means ox, both male and female. Perhaps that interpretation would apply to this case.


William Thomas White: I think it would, but . there is no objection to the amendment.
Section, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported.



LIFE INSURANCE COMPANIES INVESTMENT BIEL,

[Stage Direction]
Sir THOMAS WHITE moved the second reading of Bill No. 35, respecting the investments of life insurance companies. ,
He said: Mr. Speaker, this is a measure referred to in the Budget speech. It provides that life insurance companies, both Canadian and non-Canadian, shall, within a certain period, invest a portion of their assets in Dominion currency debentures or securities. The object we have in view is to ensure a market to that extent for Dominion securities which we may issue during the period of the war.
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What will it
amount to?


William Thomas White: The superintendent of insurance thinks we will obtain from $15,000,000 to $20,000,000 in addition to the amount which has already been taken up by life insurance companies.


Wilfrid Laurier: How much is that?


William Thomas White: They have taken about $7,000,000 of the domestic war loan and to the extent that they hold the war loan they will have complied with the provisions of this Act. The provision is that:
Every Canadian company licensed under the Insurance Act, 1910, to transact the business of life insurance shall invest in, and, on the said thirty-first day of December, shall hold and own securities of Canada to the amount of not less than fifty per cent of the increase in the net ledger assets of such company during the year one thousand nine hundred and fifteen after deducting from such increase (a) the amount of increase during the said year in the actuarial reserves held by the company in respect of its policies in force outside of Canada, and (b) the amount of increase during the said year in loans, liens and premium obligations on its policies in force in Canada.
The object of the exceptions will be obvious. Companies must maintain actua-

rial reserves in respect to tlieir policies in force outside of Canada and they are also obliged under the terms of the policy to make loans upon their policies. We are dealing only with the matter of net ledger assets in the case of Canadian companies. In regard to non-Canadian companies, it is provided:
After the fifteenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen-
Which was the date of the Budget speech.
-and deposit of securities in respect of the business of life insurance required or permitted by the Insurance Act, 1910, to be made prior to the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, with the Receiver General or with a Canadian trustee or trustees appointed under and for the purposes of the said Act by any company licensed under the said Act to transact the business of life insurance in Canada other than a Canadian company shall consist of securities of Canada.
The securities of Canada are defined in the interpretation clause of the Act as being "debentures, debenture stock, bonds or other securities of Canada payable only in the currency of Canada." We have less hesitation in introducing the measure because life insurance companies, for reasons which I shall go into when the taxation measure is under consideration, have been exempted from its provisions. In addition, under the present conditions, the securities of the Dominion yield a fairly high rate of interest. Of course, they can obtain no better class of investment either for themselves or for their policyholders.
Mr. SINCLAIR! Does it relate to future investments only?


William Thomas White: It relates to the years 1916 and 1917. Every Canadian insurance company must, during the present year, invest, if it has not yet already invested, in the securities of Canada, to an amount of not less than fifty per cent of the increase in the net ledger assets of the company during the year 1915.


John Howard Sinclair: Will that involve the sale of some of their present investments?


William Thomas White: I think not. The life insurance companies, as far as I know, raise no objection to the proposed legislation. I think it advisable, unless the House thinks otherwise, to refer this Bill to the Banking and Commerce Committee, so that it will receive full consideration, and so that, if any persons desire to be heard, the committee may hear them.


William Pugsley: It seems unfair to municipalities and provinces whose bonds are so

largely held by insurance companies that it should be limited entirely to the securities of the Dominion of Canada. I do not see why it is considered desirable to discriminate as between Canada and the various provinces, cities and municipalities in Canada. It would seem to me that if a life insurance company, instead of investing in foreign securities, as many of them have done in the past, should place their investments in Dominion, provincial, or Canadian municipal bonds, that ought to be sufficient. The various municipalities, as are also the provinces, are interested in getting a fair rate for their bonds. They are all carrying on works of importance to the country at large and they are making contributions for the purposes of war. I think I am safe in saying that all of the provinces, cities and municipalities have made contributions for the purpose of assisting the Empire in connection with the war. They have contributed for patriotic purposes to the Red Cross Fund, the Patriotic Fund and other funds. I do not see why, in legislation providing for investments in purely Canadian securities, it should be declared as a condition to these companies doing business in Canada, that they must take fifty per cent at least of the securities of the Dominion of Canada. Unless the minister has information to the contrary, I would suppose that it might necessitate these companies getting rid of provincial and municipal securities. Then, take section 5 in regard to securities which companies may be required to deposit under the Insurance Act of 1910 prior to the first of January, 1918; these securities must be entirely the securities of Canada expressly excluding the bonds of the various provinces or municipalities which might yield a little higher rate of interest, but which [DOT]Would be just as safe a security for the insurance company as the bonds of the Dominion of Canada. There ought to be some pretty strong reasons presented for excluding under this Bill the securities of the various provinces and municipalities.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I suppose one
answer that would be urged against the objection made by my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) is, that it is very much easier for the municipalities to market their bonds in the United States than for the Dominion of Canada to sell war issues in the United States or in any other market. When the minister referred to this matter in his Budget speech, I was inclined to inquire whether it might not be wise to take

steps to mobilize foreign securities held in this country, or at least to take power to ascertain the volume of foreign securities held here. I remember seeing some years ago, a statement issued by one of our Canadian banks giving a list of its securities, and I was impressed with the large volume of foreign issues which they held as investments. Doubtless the 'Government of Canada will have to make further war loans, and it struck me that some arrangement could be made whereby our railways, and banks, and other large corporations could make a disposition of their foreign securities and re-invest in Canadian war loans. 'Perhaps the minister has given consideration to that point; possibly, there may be very little in it. As the minister knows, the British Government have taken steps to mobilize all foreign securities held in England, and they are disposing of them from time to time in order to stabilize exchange. I think this might be worth looking into in Canada.


William Thomas White: With reference
to tire observations of my hon. friend from St. John, I should be disposed to concur in his views if times were normal, but if we were not at war, this legislation would not be brought down. It is purely a war measure, and arises out of the necessities of the situation with which we are confronted. I have already explained to the House that our expenditure for the war this year may reach $250,000,000, and we are confronted with a financial situation which will involve finding four hundred and twenty-five million dollars or more. Of course, to meet that expenditure, we shall have our revenues to the extent that they are available; but after we have taken that into consideration we are still confronted with a very serious financial situation by reason of the war, and next year we shall be confronted with an equally serious situation. I do not mean to say for one moment that we shall not be able to meet that situation. I am quite sure that we shall b'e able to meet it, but at the same time it is not to be disguised that the raising of these large sums of money is not, and will not be, an easy achievement. It is, therefore, necessary for us to avail ourselves of any method of adding to our market. This legislation imposes no hardship upon life insurance companies, for the reasons that I have given, and I do not think that it should be objected to by municipalities, or provinces, for the reason that the Dominion has to bear the heaviest burden of the war. It is true, as my hon. friend has said, that the
municipalities and provinces have done admirably in contributing to patriotic and other funds, and that they are manfully bearing their part in the war. But when all that has been said, the fact remains that the chief stress and strain of the war falls upon the Dominion exchequer. I do not think it is necessary for me to cite analogous legislation, but the instance which occurs to one's mind most readily is that of the United States during the Civil War. Hon. gentlemen no doubt know that the American banking system dates back to the expedients adopted during the Civil War, when Congress, in order to provide a market for the securities of the United States, legislated that note circulation should be secured by United States bonds.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is quite a difference between the American legislation and this proposal.


William Thomas White: The American
legislation made an- artificial market for American securities; it compelled the banks to take securities as cover for their note circulation. I think it would be competent for the Dominion Government, even in ordinary times, to provide that life insurance companies should hold a certain portion of Dominion, provincial or municipal securities; I do not think that would be unsound legislation at any time. But this legislation is frankly a war measure, limited to this year and next. It will be of material assistance to the Government in raising money for war purposes.


Wilfrid Laurier: Have the life insurance companies been consulted with regard to this legislation?


William Thomas White: Not specially, but so far as I can learn they do not object to it. I think they regard it as reasonable.


William Pugsley: Which section of this
Bill will cover foreign insurance companies?


William Thomas White: Section 5.


William Pugsley: Why is that section
limited? Why should it not be applied to all foreign companies licensed to do business in Canada? Why should they not be compelled to make certain deposits consisting of Dominion bonds, etc.? We know that foreign insurance companies are doing an enormous " life " business in Canada. Why should they not be required, as a condition of obtaining a license to hold a certain amount of Canadian securities? Take one of the big New York companies, like the

Equitable, a company which I suppose has $500,000,000 of securities, and is doing a very large business in Canada. I am only mentioning the Equitable as one of the big American companies. I think it might very well be provided that these foreign companies should, as a condition of their receiving' a license to do business in Canada, invest in Canadian securities to an extent proportionate to the business they are doing.


William Thomas White: The Bill goes further than my hon. friend suggests. My hon. friend is probably aware that, as the business of foreign life insurance companies in Canada increases they must increase their deposits, which are held, either by the Receiver General or by trustees, as security for their policyholders in this country. Now, this Bill has in contemplation that such deposits shall, until the first day of January, 1918, be made in Canadian securities only; that is to say, such companies shall not be permitted to deposit any other securities.


William Pugsley: That is only for the increases.


William Thomas White: Yes. It would be rather harsh legislation to compel them to sell the vast amount of securities that are now held by the Receiver General or by trustees for the security of policyholders here, and to invest in Dominion securities, which would take the place of the securities. Under the measure as drafted, we provide that Canadian insurance companies shall deposit a certain increase of their net ledger assets in Canadian securities. Now, in order to be fair to them and also to provide an additional market for Canadian securities, we propose to enact that nonCanadian companies, which are required to make deposits in respect of their increased business in Canada, shall make such deposits in Canadian securities. So that the Bill would, seem to put both Canadian and non-Canadian companies on all-fours. It must be remembered that they are in competition one with another, and it would not be fair to deal with one class of companies without at the same time dealing with the other.


William Pugsley: I am not able to see that. This section only requires the foreign companies tp make those additional deposits that are rendered necessary by the increased business between now and the first of January, 1918, in Canadian securities. But we know that foreign life insurance companies, such as the Equitable Life of New York,

which 1 have already mentioned, the New York Life, the Mutual Life of New York, and the English companies, do an enormous amount of life insurance business in Canada, and they are required to make deposits of securities to be approved by the Minister of Finance. Where would be the hardship in requiring those companies to convert their foreign securities into securities of Canada as a condition of their .being permitted to continue doing business? If their foreign securities are good, they can easily be converted into cash in the United States. There is a plethora of money in the United States seeking reasonably good security, and it would be the easiest thing in the world for those companies to get rid of their American securities, and there would be no hardship whatever in requiring them to substitute securities of Canada for such securities. I have always thought that in normal times foreign companies should be compelled to invest in securities of Canada, of the provinces, or of the various municipalities. In' these war times, when, as the minister says, there is difficulty in raising money and when we are imposing these exceptional taxes upon the people, there can be no ground of complaint if we require these foreign companies to convert into securities of Canada their foreign securities which are now deposited with the Minister of Finance and for which they can easily find a market in the cities where their head offices are.


William Thomas White: This discussion is out of order; but I should like to say, in answer to my hon. friend, that he has overlooked the fact that the deposits made by foreign companies are largely in Canadian investments, such as securities of municipalities and provinces, and mortgages.


William Pugsley: Only partially.


William Thomas White: I think largely in Canadian securities.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the
Insurance Act require?


William Thomas White: I do not think it confines them to Canadian securities; but, as a matter of fact, the deposits made by these companies are largely in Canadian securities or mortgages.


William Pugsley: Surely not mortgages?


William Thomas White: Yes.


William Pugsley: Deposited with the Minister of Finance?


William Thomas White: No, with trustees, because the Act provided for the deposit with the Minister of Finance or with trustees. Section 5 covers the case of deposits with a trustee or trustees. The suggestion of my hon. friend would mean that these companies would have to sell out their municipal and provincial securities and realize on their mortgages. That would be quite a serious disturbance; and, having regard to the situation as it exists, and the fact that our companies carry on business in foreign countries just as these companies carry on business in Canada, I think we have gone as far as it would be prudent to go.


William Pugsley: I did not mean that
these foreign companies should be compelled to sell out their existing provincial or municipal securities. What I meant was that all foreign securities, which are now held by the Minister of Finance as a condition of these companies being permitted to do business, should be disposed of, and for them should be substituted securities of Canada. As a war measure, when we are making these exceptional provisions, there would be no harm in compelling that to be done.


Robert Rogers: I really think we should get the House in order. We are not in committee just yet. When this Bill goes into committee, this discussion will be in order.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. This discussion, although interesting, is absolutely out of order, and I would suggest that it take place in the Committee of the Whole.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee on Bill No. 37, to amend the White Phosphorus Matches Act.-Mr. Crothers. Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.	-
William Pugsley: Is the minister satisfied that the Bill is all right as to form?


Mr. CROTHERS:: Yes.
On section 1-extension of time within which matches may be used:


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This section repeals section 13 of the White Phosphorus Matches Act, what is that section?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It provides that the manufacture of these matches shall cease
on January 1, 1915, and that the sale shall cease on January 1, 1916. The effect of this section is to give six months longer to sell out the goods made prior to January 1, 1915, and also to extend the period within which such matches may be used to January 1, 1917. The chief object of the Bill was the protection of those in factories engaged in making these matches. The manufacture ceased at the date mentioned in the Bill, January 1, 1915, but a longer time is required to sell them, and those who buy require a longer time to use them. As the time allowed has expired, it is necessary to date this Bill back to January 1, 1916, which is done by section 2.
Mr. A. K. 'MACLEAN: What quantity of matches have they on hand?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I was given a statement of the number of cases, but have not it before me at the moment. They have on hand a considerable quantity, but they think they will be able to sell them out, in the usual course of business, within six months. My hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) seemed to think there was something objectionable in the form of this Bill, but I cannot for the life of me see anything wrong in it. Section 1 provides that the original Act shall contain the wording here set forth. I think there is no - objection to the insertion of these words. Then, section 2 provides that the amendment proposed to the Act shall be deemed to have come into force on January 1, 1916. I cannot see that there is anything' contradictory in those two sections.


William Pugsley: I have great respect for the view of my hon. friend, but I really would like to have his view confirmed by
the Minister of Justice, who is the legal adviser of the House. Section 1 repeals section 13 of chapter 12 of the Statutes of 1914, and substitutes the following:
This Act shall come into force on the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and fifteen.
-except a certain section that is named. Then, section 2 provides:
The provisions of this Act shall he held to have come into force on, from and after the first dav of January, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Not so far as the
original Act is concerned.


William Pugsley: It does not say so. The result is that you first have a section of the old Act which is to come into force on January 1, 1915, and the Act that brings that

i
amending section into force does not itself become operative until a year afterwards, namely, January 1, 1916. If the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) says I am wrong in that, I have not a word to say.


Mr. DOHERTY:: The effect of section 1
of this Act is to provide that the Act of 1914 shall read as here provided instead of reading as it now does. It puts these words into the Act of 1914. In that case the words " this Act " apply to the Act of 1914, and in effect they are only a repetition of the words that presently are in the Act of 1914; for, as I understand it, the substantia] change is to add the proviso. If the Minister of Labour, instead of repealing the entire clause and substituting a new one, had proceeded by saying that this section of the Act of 1914 is amended by adding the following proviso, then section 14 would have read as it will read after this amendment is passed. I do not know whether I am mistaken or not, but it seems to me that the hon. gentleman's difficulty results from the fact that he takes the words " this Act " in the section it is proposed to substitute in the Act of 1914, and the words " this Act " in the second section of this Bill, as applying to the same Act, whereas, as a matter of fact, in the first place these words apply to the Act of 1914, and, in the second place, they apply to this Bill,- which will become an Act if it is passed. I do not see any contradiction here.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is somewhat
confusing.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I confess that until the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) made the suggestion, though I had read the Bill, it did not create any confusion in my mind.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why are the words
"section 1 retroactive" put in the margin of section 2 of the Bill?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I understand that to
refer to section 1 of this Bill being made retroactive, and the effect of that section is to amend the Act of 1914 so as to extend certain delays therein provided. I understand that the reason for making it retroactive is that under the existing disposition of the Act of 1914 offences have already been committed.
Unless this amendment is read as having dated back from the date mentioned in the second section, people might be affected, although we have changed the law now

and extended the time during which it was lawful to, do what they did.
Bill reported read the third time and passed.



WINDING-UP ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of Bill No. 55, to amend the Winding-up Act.
He said: The purpose and effect of the Bill is simply to correct an anomalous situation that exists in the province of Ontario by reason of the fact that in the Winding-up Act "the court" is declared, for the province of Ontario, to mean the High Court of Justice of Ontario. To "the court" is committed the authority to make rules. Under the present arrangement of the courts in Ontario, there is one court called the Supreme Court of Ontario which has two divisions, the appellate division and the high court division. The result of the present (legislation is that, for the purpose of the Winding-up Act, the power of making rules is conferred upon the High Court of Ontario, and, under the general statute made at the time of the change of name, would pass exclusively to the High Court Division of the Supreme Court of Ontario. All -other rules of practice in Ontario are made by the judges composing the entire Supreme Court of Ontario, the two divisions. It is represented by them that it is anomalous that we should have this exceptional case under the Winding-up Act, where the rules are made by the judges of one division only.
Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House i,n Committee of Supply.
Labour, $68,500.
William Pugsley: Before going into the
items of the Department of Labour perhaps the minister would not mind if I should speak very briefly on the subject of shipbuilding in Canada to which I know my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), and otherhon. members have given a great deal of attention. This industry would, of course, give employment to a large number of labouring people, and in other ways it would prove of enormous advantage to Canada. I want to say, in the presence of the Minister of Labour and other members of the Government, who I

hope will give heed to my words-although the experience I have had in the past has not led me to hope for very much in that direction-that I think it is not only lamentable but is wholly discreditable to this Government that, although Canada has been engaged in this great war since August of 1914, upwards of 18 months, and although this Government has seen gradually disappearing the shipping of the Empire, and the shipping of Canada that in the past had a great deal to do with the carrying trade of Canada being commandeered by the British Government to meet the interests of the Empire; and although Canada was once one of the greatest shipbuilding countries in the world, this Government, so far as the public and this Parliament know, has not taken one single step during those 18 months towards the encouragement of shipbuilding in Canada.' The situation is getting worse. Only to-day we heard complaints by different members of the House 'as to difficulty in regard even to the getting of such a necessary article as coal from one part of our country to another. The situation is rapidly becoming worse, and it is a lamentable condition of affairs that this Government have not been able to see their way clear, up to this date, after the war has been in progress for 18 months, to announce to Parliament any measure which they have decided upon for the encouragement of shipbuilding in Canada. I can remember the time, not many years ago, when in the port of St. John, at the head of Courtenay bay, 1,200 men were employed in the building of ships; and all over the Maritime Provinces it was the same. We have great opportunities for shipbuilding upon, the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, and upon the Great Lakes, and all that our people need is reasonable encouragement to start up a great shipbuilding industry to give employment to thousands of our people. I would hope that to-day, in connection with the Estimates of the Department of Labour, the Minister will be able to give to this Parliament and the people of this country some hope that at last the Government has awakened to the necessity of taking hold of this important subject and is prepared to do something to restore to Canada this great industry which, not many years ago, was of such vast importance, and gave employment to so many people.


John Hampden Burnham: I think the bon. member for St. Joihn is quite right in more 102
i\ays than one. First of all, I think lie is right in expecting great things of this Government, and I think he is particularly right in expecting great things of the Minister of Labour. I am well aware that the Minister of Labour is very highly thought of by the people [DOT] of Canada, and that he has devoted his great industry and the best of his brilliant mind to the solution of various industrial difficulties in such a way as to meet -with the approval of the people in general and of labour in particular. The idea of encouraging industries is, of course, a protectionist idea, and naturally occurs to any reasonable man. It is absolutely in violation of all free trade principles. However, I am not here to chop logic on that question; I am here to agree with the 'hon. gentleman, and I think that the solution of one of the great difficulties of Canadian trade lies in that very encouragement to which he refers. There is at the present time before the United States Congress, a Bill of massive proportions for the encouragement, ot rather the restoration of the supremacy of American shipping. A friend of mine sent me a copy of it, which I promptly forwarded to the right hon. the Prime Minister, as it seemed to me to be not only of very great proportions but to contain within its four corners much that is of prime necessity to this continent in general. That Canada should have a merchant marine .is a prime necessity. We cannot hope for the lowering of freights unless we have a marine of our own which we can control.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I noticed a letter from the hon. gentleman in the press of this city a few days ago in which he urged the wisdom of having no imports.


John Hampden Burnham: I think the hon. gentleman has mistaken the import of the letter.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the hon. gentleman explain to me now what was in that letter?


John Hampden Burnham: I cannot offhand
because it was a reply.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What was the substance of it?


John Hampden Burnham: It was replying to a specific statement of a newspaper, and I am not aware that the newspaper took it up and repudiated it in the same
5 p.m. light that the hon. member for Halifax is anxious to do. I can not recall the letter as having any bearin on an objection to imports. It was specific statement which, if withdrawn

P aq

from its context and from the facts in dispute, might mean something altogether different. I am not prepared to undergo cross-examination on this point just now without at least having the letter here.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I understood the hon. member to say in that letter that it was very desirable from a Canadian standpoint that we should have no imports; and, if that was the hon. gentleman's view, I was going to ask him what he proposed to do with Canadian shipping.


John Hampden Burnham: I intended it for exports, that is all. I did not think anything about the imports at all; it was the exports.


William Pugsley: So they would do business only the one way?


John Hampden Burnham: It did not occur to me that we were going to have a Canadian system of shipping for goods coming into Canada at all.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Just for exports?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And the ships would come back empty?


John Hampden Burnham: The point at issue was the matter of exchange, really, or the payment for goods in a particular way. It would be irregular, and I would be called( to order by the Chairman if I introduced that question here. As to that, the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) is perfectly right. We are working in this coun-1 try under a great disadvantage, but by our genius and industry we hope to be able to export our goods to all- quarters of the globe. We should be provided with the means for export. .


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How are we going to get paid for those exports?


John Hampden Burnham: That is a very elementary thing; I should think the hon. junior member for Halifax would work that out for himself if he would just take a little time'. That is a matter of political economy of a very simple sort.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How are we going to get the ships back? Will the Government have to pay something equivalent to freight to secure their return?


John Hampden Burnham: How are we going to get the ships back?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Yes. Is the hon. gentleman quite content that they should come back empty?


John Hampden Burnham: It is not likely that they will come back empty. They may make trips around the globe carrying other people's goods just as British ships do.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I can understand British ships doing that, because they carry the trade of every country in the world, and their ships can make trips to and from all parts of the world. It is not only that you are willing to export, but you want to know how you are going to get your ships back to this country under such, circumstances.


John Hampden Burnham: I can only say to the hon. gentleman that the principle of a free exchange of commodities which, he is endeavouring to introduce in this debate is entirely foreign to it. What I am arguing is that the preponderance of this country in trade and industry cannot be acquired by doing our manufacturing outside. It must be done here. The superiority of the Dominion is continually being demonstrated and it is an absolute denial of the contention that the hon. gentleman is now endeavouring to make. However, I agree heartily with the position taken by the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) that we should aid, by every means in our power, the development of this as of every other industry.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the hon. gentleman any proposal to make as to how industries can assist the building of ships?


John Hampden Burnham: We might possibly imitate the free trade country which subsidizes its vessels and we might possibly develop the industry in that way.



TECHNICAL TRAINING FOR EX-SOLDIERS.

Mr. E. W. NESBITT (North Oxford):: We have a great many wounded men coming back from the front and we will have more. While these men have been loyal enough to volunteer to go to the front and fight for their country, I believe that they will be proud enough also when they come back to help themselves as much as possible by working for their own living. A great many will come back wounded and be unable to work at their ordinary vocations. At Lyons, France, they have already established large schools to educate wounded men. They are educating them in trades that they will be .able to work at no matter how badly they axe wounded, provided they are still capable of doing

something. By that means they will be able to make a living for themselves. I am quite sure, from what I know of a good many of the men who have gone to the front, that they would rather do that and be more or less independent than depend entirely on what they may get from the country in the way of an annuity. Now is the time, before too many of them come back, for the Minister of Labour to try to establish technical schools in various provinces where these men may be taught trades. The. expenses will probably be large, but not nearly so large as it would be to maintain the men in idleness. It is a step in the right direction, and now is the time to undertake it. I do not think we should wait until the war is over, because it always takes time to get anything of this kind properly started and under way. I would urge the minister to take up the question with his department at once, and try to work in conjunction with the various provinces to get the schools started. We have nothing of the kind in Canada as far as I know. The minister can easily get a description of the schools in France, and this would be of very material assistance to him in establishing them here. I understand that they are working admirably there and that the men are learning trades so that they will be in a position to help thehiselves which otherwise they could not do.


Frank Oliver: I want to support what my hon. friend from North Oxford has said in regard to the desirability of technical training for men partially disabled who have returned from the war. I had the honor of bringing that matter to the attention o'f the House on a former occasion and I can not allow the present occasion to pass without reinforcing what my hon. friend has said. I would like to ask the minister what department has charge of the care of returned soldiers. There is what is called, I think, a Hospital Commission, or something of the kind. Which minister is supposed to have charge of that commission?	-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Senator Lougheed is the chairman of it.


Frank Oliver: But I suppose it must be under some department answerable to Parliament.	[DOT]


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I suppose it is under the Militia Department.


Frank Oliver: That is not the main point I want to speak of. Certainly, the education of partially disabled men is as important, not only to the men themselves, but to the welfare of the state, as anything else [DOT]that we can consider in connection with the war. We are going to have an enormous number of broken men, men who were .able to engage in the most active life before their enlistment. Otherwise, of course, they could not have enlisted. They are drawn from all walks of life. Some have toad educational opportunities; others have a trade; but a large proportion have not had any of these advantages. If these men are so disabled as not to be able to continue in tlhe vocations in which they were previously engaged, they may still be physically and mentally capable of engaging in other occupations suitable to their partially disabled condition; and it seems to me that we are not fully discharging our duty to these men unless, besides giving them their pensions, we give them an opportunity to acquire knowledge of one kind or another which they will be able to turn to advantage. A pension, let it be as liberal as you please, can never replace to the man himself the liberty and ability he had before he became disabled. Again, a citizen who is living on bis pension and engaged in no productive work, is not producing wealth for the State, or taking the part he could take if he were made competent according to his physical ability. It is only men who are entirely disabled, so to speak, or not of the brightest intellect, who cannot, by some form or other of education, be made efficient in some industrial or educational line. I think that this is a work that might very well be taken up 'by the department over which frny hon. friend presides. I can think of no other department of the Government within whose sphere it could more naturally or properly fall, and I therefore desire to support the suggestion of my hon. friend from North Oxford, and urge as strongly as I can that this is a duty which rests upon our country; an obligation which we can never fully discharge, but which, so far as we are able, we certainly should discharge, not only in the interests of the man himself, but in the interests of the state as well.
When the Prime Minister was discussing something in this connection on a previous occasion, I had the honour to mention to-the House that at the present moment

there is a technical school in the city of Edmonton fully equipped for this kind of work. The equipment is paid for by the Provincial Government, and the school is maintained at the cost of the tax-payers of the city, with some assistance from the Provincial Government. Here, right at hand, we have an institution that would cover the case in a very considerable measure. There are men in the school for teaching quite a number of trades. The school is conveniently situated for taking care of a large number of returned soldiers. I did not urge this upon the Government when I mentioned the matter before; but I do urge upon the attention of the Minister of Labour now, and through him upon the attention of the Government, that this school be utilized. Already we have a large number of partially disabled soldiers in Edmonton and Northern Alberta; men who have served their country to the best of their ability, and are now broken men. Owing to financial conditions, there is a possibility of the school at Edmonton being closed, o,r at all events/ of its scope and efficiency being largely reduced. And I would very strongly urge that instead of waiting any longer, the Government might very well begin to experiment in this matter by taking cognizance of this particular school, and adopting means whereby co-operation can be secured between this' Government and the school authorities; or, if the Government thought fit, they could take entire charge of the school with a view to the education, in such trades and callings as the men are physically fitted for, of those partially disabled soldiers who have returned from the front and are willing to engage in those callings.
It will be understood that the disabled man who is desirous of attending such a school must have means of support while he is receiving instruction; that is a matter that would have to be considered, and if it were taken care of, it would have to be at the expense of the Dominion Government. That would be supplementary to the soldier's pension, which, of course, would not be sufficient to enable him to attend the school and support himself. I would not advocate that men should be put in this school to learn trades that they are not mentally fitted for, or that they should be forced into any school. But a labourer, for instance, who has had no opportunity of learning a trade, and has lost a leg, we will say, might learn at tljds school some trade that he could become absolutely efficient in without his full complement of legs. But
[Mr. Oliver.!
in order to enable him to do that somebody would have to supplement his pension. If the man were ambitions and mentally fitted for the work, I think it would be a most excellent investment for the Government of the country from every point of view. Besides, I maintain that it is a legitimate obligation that properly rests upon us to see that everything that can be done is done to make up to those men the loss that they have suffered and the loss which the state has suffered by reason of the reduced efficiency of these citizens. I therefore take this opportunity of urging upon the Government, and upon the Minister of Labour, in whose department this matter most properly falls, and who has in a large measure the organization at his disposal, the necessity of giving effect to the suggestions I have made. I hope that it will be possible for him to see the matter as I have tried to present it to the House, and that he will present it to his colleagues successfully, so that we may have results, and I wish particularly to put in a word for the technical school at Edmonton, which stands there to-day ready and prepared to do this work.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The question of technical education comes home acutely to a great many people on account of the situation presented in Canada by the lack of occupation for our returned soldiers. That situation naturally calls for sympathy and attention of an unusual kind, but that does not in any way lessen the general importance and necessity of Canada taking some forward step in regard to the whole question of technical education. When we contemplate, as we have been doing during the past few months, the return to Canada of men who might be classed as broken men with all their old affiliations and associations, formed previous to their going to the front, broken off, and a new phase of life opened up to them, it is natural that we should look to the state to provide some certainty of occupation for those men on their return. In regard to the whole question of pensions, I have on the Order Paper a motion on which I hope to address the House in a few days, but in regard to the duty of Canada to our returned soldiers, I wish to make some remarks now, because last summer in my own province the attention of the Government was called to its duty in this connection. The Hospitals Commission, which was appointed by the Government and over which Senator Loug-heed presides, is composed of a large number of estimable gentlemen throughout

Canada n'ot directly connected with the Government, who are anxious to serve in some way and who have, no doubt, given a great deal of service on that commission. It occurred to a number of people in our province that what is known as technical or vocational training in connection with our returned soldiers was the fundamental solution of the problem after they had been [DOT] brought through the stages of illness and convalescence. That problem was presented last summer in my province to the commission, and a large amount of correspondence was carried on with Mr. Seammell, secretary of the commission; and, although I am not making any announcement on the part of the commission, I understand they appreciate to the full the desirability and the necessity of some action being taken in that regard. At a conference held between the members of the commission and the representatives of the different provincial governments, a plan for vocational training was submitted by Professor Sexton, who is at the head of the technical schools at Halifax, and the method of training under provincial and federal control was adopted and approved by that body. I have under my hand a letter from the head of one of the technical schools, and, as it is interesting in tips connection and show's what has been done, I will read it to the House:
We have already admitted several returned men to this school, and, as I intimated to you in conversation when you visited the school last December, we find ourselves well equipped to give Just the help the men need. These men have been admitted without fee on the expectation that the ultimate arrangements made by the Dominion Government will include a sufficient grant to relieve our Board of Education from the additional expenditure.
That, I think, is the crux of the matter at this stage.
The expense connected with this work will be greater for each indiivdual than that required for the care of the average pupil in regular attendance at the school. The classes for soldiers will of necessity be smaller, a greater variety of work will be presented, and the work itself must be more intensive, requiring the highest grade of skilful industrial teachers. However, I am confident that with the co-operation of our Advisory Industrial Committee and the Board of Education, which is assured, and with a sufficient grant to cover the additional expense, we can provide in our new building for the teaching of several hundred of these men. There is no doubt in my mind as to the necessity of providing this work. Let me give you two examples:
1. A young man, not yet 19 years of age, who had formerly been connected with this school, has returned with loss of one eye ar.ll with a badly maimed left arm. He is now being prepared for matriculation into the Faculty of Applied Science of the University of Toronto, and will ultimately become a civil engineer.
2. A young Scotchman, age 27, who has had some experience in railroad work, and whose right arm is partially paralysed, is being taught railroad telegraphy. He has had a fair elementary education, and will become, I expect, a proficient man in the line of work chosen.
Several have been inquiring about taking work with us, and I find it a little early yet for them in their period of convalescence. But now that the men are returning in large numbers, it seems desirable to formulate some definite plan, and to make it widely known.
That illustrates the practicability of the proposition suggested, and the way in which it is being worked out. It is recognized by the different bodies who have been consulted that the situation is this: Technical education being under the control of the provinces, there are already in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta and British Columbia, technical schools with varied equipment depending on their age and the conditions in the respective provinces, which are prepared to take in pupils for vocational training. In my province there was established a few years ago by tlie Provincial Government a magnificent school, which is doing splendid work and by which the soldiers from the Maritime Provinces may be fitted for new vocations in place of those for which their experience at the front has. to tally unfitted them. In Toronto, there is a magnificent school which was opened only last year, and which is equipped as well as almost any technical school on this continent.


Mr. KYTE:: Under whose control is it?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It is under the control of the city of Toronto. In Montreal the technical school is equally well equipped.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: There are two of them in Montreal.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And my hon. friend from Edmonton speaks of the conditions in that town. It seems to me that assistance in vocational training must come from the Dominion Government and that it ought really to form part of our war expenditure. I do not wish to enter upon any controversial subject in regard to a matter of this kind as to which there is no party feeling, although I realize that there are items comprising millions of dollars which are to be included in our war debt, which certainly deserve to be investigated; but I feel that it would be proper to include in our war debt any sum necessary to provide vocational training for our returned soldiers and to equip the young men of this country

to aid in the industrial development of Canada, That money 'has to be found, and I realise the difficulty of finding it out of the ordinary revenues of the country; but I submit that the proper place to find it is out of the war debt of the country, because the necessity for this work is a direct consequence of the war. Tentative arrangements have 'been made, in certain provinces at least, under which men who have returned, and who 'are in a convalescent stage in some of the homes which exist in certain of the different provinces, are being trained, and in my province the provincial authorities are preparing to provide technical instruction in the vicinity of those homes in order that education along technical' lines may be given to those men as soon as they are able to receive it.
That cannot be done without money. The Provincial Governments provide the schools and the instructions; it is the duty of this country to assume, as part of the burden imposed by the war, the responsibility of providing education for these men. In the working out of this problem, the necessity suggested by my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) would be provided for. But I go further and say that this is a duty imposed upon this country as a whole as a direct result of the war and because of the conditions which will exist in Canada by reason of the war. I find the following in the report of the Department of Labour:
While the importance of the whole subject of technical education is unquestioned, the pressing urgency of other matters consequent on the outbreak of war has not made the past year opportune for further action.
I say that the duty of increasing the opportunities of technical education falls upon us as a direct consequence of the war; it is just as much the duty of those responsible for the direction of Canada's affairs as is the sending of men to the front.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: More so.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend is
more emphatic on the point than I have stated. The duty is imperative and the necessity for action equally so.
What is the situation? We are taking men between eighteen and forty-five years of age, wherever we can find them; asking them to go voluntarily and fight the battle of the Empire and of civilization. The Prime Minister has 'intimated that the aim of Canada is to send half a million men. Realizing the situation and the necessity, the president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, speaking yesterday in Montreal in the 
presence of the Minister of Militia (Sir Sam Hughes) pointed out what it means to the industrial life of this country to take away half a million men. He spoke as one enthusiastic and sympathetic for Canada performing her full duty in the war. In my own province, in the great coal industry, from 1,500 to 2,000 men engaged in mining have gone to the front. These are men in the most active period of their lives. They are leaving the old men, who were loaders of the coal, and the 'boys, who have 'been doing boys' work. The consequence is that coal production is seriously interfered with. To-day we heard the complaint made by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean), and I have myself voiced the complaints of industries in Nova Scotia, including those engaged in the manufacture of munitions, that the reduced coal production is impairing their efficiency. This is only one line of industry, but in every other line something of the same result is seen by reason of the fact that the men in the prime of life have been taken away, leaving the older men and the boys. A large percentage of these men will come back, as the hon. member for Edmonton has said, broken men. How are you going to prepare the boys to handle the technical work that these men have been doing?
But that is not all. When you look at what Canada is to be, when you hear our optimists talk about the great immigration that will come to Canada from other countries, the question is, how are we to equip ourselves to 'build up the industrial prosperity which: Canada must have if she is to fulfil her high destiny? You are taking away the very flower of our industrial army. The only way to supply the places of those who have gone is to fit the boys early to fill the places of the others. This is a necessity resting upon the Dominion as a whole, as a direct consequence of the war. Consider what was done in Germany. I do not often quote at length, but I have a statement here which puts the case so clearly, and with such emphasis, that, perhaps, I may be pardoned if I read it:
When industrial evolution progressed to such a state that the apprenticeship system began to seriously weaken, Germany bethought herself of providing trade instruction in the schools. The master workman was so busy maintaining themselves against the competition of others and in keeping up with the scientific advancement of his trade that he did not have time to teach the apprentice. The latter found that his branch of industry was being so minutely specialized by the division of labour that he did not have a chance to acquire all the fundamentals of his vocation in his master's workshop. Schools were started which offered prac-

lli&i
tical training suitable for various trades in the evenings and on Sundays. At first attendance at these classes was voluntary, but when it came to be recognized that the instruction was immensely valuable to both wage-earners and employers, compulsory attendance was introduced and has become almost universal in Germany. It became evident that evening and Sunday classes were too great a strain upon the young'workers, so that later developments have made it necessary for employers to allow their apprentices free time in working hours to attend school for six to eight hours a week and pay them at the same rate as if they were working in the factory. Some manufacturers opposed these regulations for a year or more and then supported such measures because they found the training and increased intelligence of the workers was more advantageous to their output than if the young men were kept all the time in the factory. Thus it Is seen that the state has the boy under Its control in tha schools after he has gone to work and almost up to the age of maturity. If he goes to work at 14 he has to continue in the special industrial schools for either three or four years more until he becomes a journeyman. The extent of these schools may be judged from the number who attend in the kingdom of Prussia. In 18S4 there were 58,000 pupils enrolled in these industrial schools, and in 1909, the number had increased to 360,000.
The extent of the instruction in different trades may be comprehended when one realizes that in the city of Munich 52 different trades are provided for by separate teachers and schools. There are classes for such apprentices as hotel waiters, chimney-sweeps, plasterers, blacksmiths, bakers, saddlers, and men in other callings which we consider do not need any theoretical training to learn their trade. This city of 580,000 people spends nearly $250,000 a year on this kind of teaching alone.
Besides training competent mechanics Germany provides schools for preparing bosses and foremen. Men who have been through the industrial schools and have worked at their trade for two or more years may go to institutions where they spend most of their time for two or three years in receiving instruction to prepare themselves for positions of industrial responsibility lower than those of manager. These thoroughly trained men superintend and direct the operations of journeymen in Germany's factories.
This progressive country also provides splendid technical colleges for the training of engineers, commercial universities for the preparation of men who shall direct the business and industry of the empire, navigation schools, mining schools, industrial art schools, leather schools, textile schools, etc. There is some sort of education offered for every kind of human activity and every grade or worker. The older traditional education is not slighted and generous provision is made for classical education in public schools and universities. There is an absolute faith among all the people in the power for good education and everywhere honour is accorded to any kind of trained man commensurate with this degree of learning.
Is it any wonder that Germany has forged to the forefront of civilized nations in the last 30 or 40 years? In 1870 the manufactures, the inventions and the foreign commerce of the separate German states were far below those of England and France. To-day united Germany stands in the front rank of the nations of the world in industrial production and she clearly
leads all other nations in the application of science to the industry and to the arts. Her position is all the more remarkable because this result has been achieved in a country in which the agricultural and mineral resources are not great and In the face of the burdens due to long and costly wars, to maintenance of a great army and to the draining of a large part of its population through emigration. Where the emigration in the 80's was 200,000 a year, it is now only 25,000, who go mostly to South America and Africa, where German industrial projects are being carried out. The Germans themselves are proud to proclaim that the greatest single instrument in accomplishing their wonderful industrial growth has been technical education.	.
A few years ago, a number of prominent German manufacturers, educationists and public men made an extensive tour in the United States with the idea of finding out how serious a competition the latter nation might prove in the future struggle for world trade. Their concensus of opinion was that the United States possessed greater natural resources, a superior factory system, workmen of greater energy, industry, and mechanical skill and cheaper railway transportation. Notwithstanding all these advantages, the German experts thought that even the existing grip of America on international trade would tend to weaken. They commented on the absence of any adequate system of special education for commerce, banking or foreign trade in the United iStates. The meagreness of technical education, the trifling annual contingent of chemists, engineers, trained foremen, educated dyers, weavers, electricians, and mechanics as compared with the throng of lawyers, physicians, dentists and unspecialized graduates of colleges seemed shortsighted and improvident. The foreign investigators concluded that on the whole the "American danger" had been greatly exaggerated, and that a steadfast adherence by Germany to the technical educational policy and commercial methods now in practice will leave the fatherland little to fear in future competition with American manufactured goods.
This condition in Germany, the existence of which is conceded on all sides, is the result of thirty years' development along the lines of technical education. Why is it that Germany to-day possesses so many trade secrets? The processes connected with dyeing trades are known only to Germany. Large amounts of money are being expended in some parts of the United States for the purpose of inquiring into these processes with a view to establishing the dyeing industry in that country. Why is it that Germany possesses these secrets? Simply because their young men were educated along scientific lines. Why is it that ordinary German soldiers are able to manipulate the instruments by the use of which they employ what we are inclined to call nefarious and inhuman systems of warfare? Simply because the common men over there learned all these things as part of their early training and education.

Our newspapers keep pointing out to the people in an optimistic way the benefits that will come to Canada after the war. There are people who say, " We are going to have so many people on the land." All right; let us have the people on the land. But our country will not develop as enormously as is hoped for if the population is confined to the land. We must have those who till the soil and produce the wheat, but we must take steps along these other lines as well if we hope to obtain the development in this country that we want. During the last fifteen years there has been' a tendency on the part of the people to go from the country into the towns. It is just as important to Canada that the people who come to our cities shall be trained to be useful, producing citizens, as it is to have men on our farms producing wheat.
The necessity of some action in this regard seems to me to be absolutely imperative. I am not speaking in a partisan way; I simply desire to impress upon the minister and upon the Government the necessity for some Action. I might make complaints; I might indulge in unfavourable criticism; but I do not purpose doing that, because I think the subject ought to be dealt with along broad lines.
It may be said that education is a matter that should be looked after by the provinces. What has been done in this regard? A few days ago we voted an immense sum of money to be used over a period of ten years for the education and instruction of young men along agricultural lines. Schools have been erected in provinces where formerly they did not exist; arrangements have been made with the provincial authorities for the expenditure of this money every year, with a view to extending the facilities of agricultural instruction. Assistance is given to two schools interested in subjects connected with navigation. My hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has made provision for navigation schools in connection with the technical schools in our province; these navigation schools are doing good work. Assistance has been given to McGill university for a transportation course and for a forest-products laboratory; assistance has been given in a number of other ways. The constitutional question, therefore, does not present any difficulty at all; the Provincial and Federal Governments have worked together in the expenditure of this [DOT]51,000,000 which we give every year to agrioulture.

It may be said that a proposal of this kind involves extravagant expenditure at a time when we ought to economize.	But, hon. gentlemen,
remember the old scriptural saying, " there is that scattereth, and yet increaseth ; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty." It is a peculiar thing to me if hon. gentlemen cannot find in the Estimates that [DOT] have been brought down to Parliament any sum of money which could be taken out and a substitution made therefor of a sum to be devoted to the assistance of technical education. In our province some of the citizens have offered bursaries to stimulate educational competition among the younger men, with the result that during the last year or two young men have been able to take up short courses at the technical schools and fit themselves for active industrial work. But necessarily that comes within the scope of the duty of the State. The results are by no means so broad or comprehensive as could be obtained or as ought to be obtainedby that generous assistance which this Government should be able to give. It seems to me that satisfactory results could be obtained by the application of federal assistance to the organization that we have in Canada to-day in the matter of technical education. No grants should be made or assistance given for the purchase of sites or the erection of buildings; provision for these should be made by the provinces. But supplementary assistance ought to come from this Government for maintenance, for development, and for the special equipment which is necessary in order to provide for the soldiers who will return from the war and for the men who must take the places of those who have gone to the front. With some support of that kind, having the educational facilities in all the towns where we have manufacturing interests, there is no reason why the local boards of education should not provide for technical instruction along certain lines. Certain cities in Ontario, I understand, are now taking steps towards beginning this work.


John Hampden Burnham: Night schools are the
germ of that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Night schools in the cities. Hamilton and London are two
cities-


Edward Walter Nesbitt: But they do not go far enough with the type of education that will suit the returned maimed soldiers.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The returned maimed soldier is only the smallest part of the problem. He can be and will be provided for. My argument is that the public are only beginning to appreciate the serious necessity of grappling with this problem on seeing the object lesson of the returned soldiers. I can understand that the public are apt to be quiescent upon this problem. I think the minister will agree that arrangements have already been made for some institutions to deal with the returned soldiers. But where you have the technical institutions in the particular provinces, and where you have the provincial authorities in sympathy with you, the problem can be worked out.
I was advised by Prof. Sexton, only a week ago, when he was here in attendance at the meeting of the Mining Institute, that they were proceeding to send two or three instructors to a convalescent home in my province to begin instruction in the different trades which these men might be suitable for. He thought the first thing to do was to have experts who were accustomed to training people to vocations, to determine what the men who had come back from the front could do, and what lines of usefulness they could be trained in, so as to supply education along that particular line. We are only beginning to awaken to the necessity of action "on the question of technical education generally, by reason of the fact that we see these disabled men coming back from the front. We know that they have nothing to do, and the question is, what are we going to do with them? Hence technical education comes to the front.
At six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Bill No. 6, to confirm certain agreements made between the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company, the Canadian Northern Railway Company, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company-Mr. Morphy -in Committee.
On section 1-agreement confirmed:
Mr. BLAIN:: This agreement has been
sanctioned by the Board of Railway Commissioners. It was gone into pretty thoroughly by the committee, and I think it is satisfactory.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 23, to incorporate the Ontario Niagara Connecting Bridge Company-Mr. German-in Committee.
On section 14-time for commencement and completion of bridge:	.


Mr. REID:: This section provides that the agreement must be approved by the Governor in Council. I am not sure whether that includes the plans. It is a very important point, and I would ask that the Bill stand for the present.
Progress reported.
Bill No. 28, respecting the Kettle Valley Railway Company, and Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company-Mr. Green-in Committee.
On section 1-extension of time for construction :


Robert Rogers: I do not see the member here in whose name the Bill stands. The amendment provides that the company may staTt the railway within two years and have five years to finish it. This is an important matter. If the railway is not finished at the end of five years, our legislation is null and void. I would ask that the Bill stand until the hon. member for Kootenay can be present.
Progress reported.
Bill No. 26, respecting the Corporation of the City of Brantford-Mr. Cockshutt- in Committee.
On section 1-extension of the Grand Valley Railway authorized:


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What amendments have been made in Committee?


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: The Bill is intended to confer upon a commission, to be elected by the city of Brantford^ power to run the Grand Valley Railway, which the city has acquired by purchase. It embraces not only the street railway of the city of Brantford, but a spur that runs to Paris and Galt, partly through the county of Brant and partly through the county of Waterloo. The Bill is not granting any powers beyond those already contained in Acts and amendments that have been passed on behalf of the Grand Valley Railway Company, which

was incorporated toy this House in 1900. This is merely an enabling Bill to bring the railway under the jurisdiction of the city of Brantford. The commission is 'elected from time to time, annually, I think, as provided in the Bill. The matter has been thoroughly threshed out before the Bailway Committee, and the Provincial (government have signified their satisfaction with the Bill. The municipalities concerned are satisfied, as are also the members of the two districts. I may say that the city solicitor of Brantford was advised by the Bailway Commission of Ontario to come to this House. They said that as the original charter had been granted by this House, and as the railway had been declared to be for the general advantage of Canada, it was a matter for this Parliament to deal with.	,


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the hon.
gentleman state briefly what amendments were made in committee?


Richard Blain: A considerable number of amendments were made. As the Bill will have to stand over on account of some clerical errors, I move that the committee rise and report progress.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I* do not want the Bill to stand over. I was interested when this Bill came up for a second reading, and I just wanted, to know what amendments had been made in committee.


John Dowsley Reid: I was in the committee when this Bill came up. It is merely to allow a commission appointed by the city of Brantford to take over the Grand Valley railway. The railway will become a municipal enterprise. When the matter came before the railway committee, the only point raised was that the Bill should be amended so that the commission would be in the same position as the Grand Valley Bailway Company in respect of paying taxes to the several municipalities through which it passed. In other words, under the Ontario Act, a municipal railroad does not have to pay taxes to other municipalities through which it passes; but in this case the railway committee felt that, as the Grand Valley railway passed through a number of municipalities and at present paid taxes to them, unless this section was inserted, the municipalities would lose the taxes which they had been receiving and the city of Brantford would get the benefit. Therefore, they decided that it was better to insert this section, so that the city of Branford, if it took

over this railway, would pay the taxes just as the Grand Valley Eailway Company had been doing previously. That left the matter in this position, that the city, to be relieved, under the Ontario Act, of paying the taxes, would have to apply to the Ontario' legislature. I think that, with the exception of a few clerical errors, that was the only amendment that was made.


William Foster Cockshutt: There are only a few clerical errors and some clauses that have been left out of the Bill, and I think that we might as well go on.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I was not speaking with any idea of opposing the Bill.


Richard Blain: I beg leave to withdraw my motion.
Progress reported.



SECOND READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 52, for the relief of Henry John Thomas Wardlaw.-Mr. Wallace.
Bill No. 53, for the relief of Bobert William Thompson.-Mr. J. A. M. Armstrong.

[Stage Direction]
Beporf of the International Waterways Commission, pertaining to St. John river.- Mr. Bogers.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Ehodes in the Chair.
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Speak-. ing of the duty of the Government in regard to technical education, it was quite understood that the question of the care of the returned soldiers is to be in charge of the Hospital Commission; and, as was said before dinner, the understanding is that the provinces will provide the facilities for the educational training of any of these men, with assistance to be given by the Federal Government through the Hospital Commission. But I have already pointed out that the arrangements for carrying this into effect have not been perfected. I assume, however, that they will be perfected. Should this not be accomplished, the responsibility for failure will rest upon the Government.
That, however, is only one of the phases of the larger question. In regard to that larger question, Canada seems to be living very much in the present. We are concerned, indeed obsessed, with the task that has come to us of taking part in the war, and

of enlisting all our people within the ages when volunteering could be expected. Occasionally, an optimist like the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) tells us of the many thousands of people who are coming here after the war, and this very splendid condition of affairs is expected as a matter of certainty simply because many of our people do not stop to think about the real question, the question whether we are equipped to achieve the results that we desire. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) spoke some warning words in regard to the situation and reminded us of our duty, a duty which I am attempting in some small way to recall to the attention of the House and the country. The hon. gentleman said:
It would toe a great mistake if we put away from us all care, all investigation, all fronting of what will toe the real difficulties 'of the future, and that when the supreme economic struggle comes And ourselves not well prepared, light-heartedly and without thorough examination entering into the greatest contest in our history, the greatest in the history of the world.
And in concluding his remarks upon that portion of the subject he said:	_
Looking at the matter in that light, we cannot look forward to the end of the war and keep ourselves up until that period on the false assumption that peace will "bring with it unexampled prosperity.
I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce was not too pessimistic. Thousands, and hundreds of thousands, of the very flower of our country's life will come home disabled, with their ambitions of life gone, many of them unfitted for the occupations in which they were engaged before the war. This will impose upon the rest of the Canadian people the task of caring for these men. Our population, in proportion to our area, is a comparatively sparse one, and when you take the spirit and ambition of the energetic men between 18 and 45 from the life of this country, and impair the usefulness ol many of these men, the problem that awaits the Canadian people is seen to be a very serious one. And that problem is not helped by declaring that we are to have a tremendous immigration upon our agricultural lands. After the battle upon the plains of Europe and the East is over, will come the great industrial contest, in which the maintenance of our interests will depend upon our being in a position to grasp a portion of the world's trade. Where are we to find the men to fill the places of those who have been taken from the industrial life of this country-and not
merely the places that are now empty, but those that must be created if Canada is to become the nation she ought to be? Today our eyes are blinded to the real industrial situation by the fictitious prosperity created by the injection into the business life of the country of an expenditure of three or four hundred millions upon munitions of war. Many industries which were absolutely in a state of quiescence before this expenditure began are now active. We do not realize the conditions which the Minister of Trade and Commerce has shown as inevitably coming. But the question of how to prepare for this coming condition is one worthy the most serious attention of this House. We might well lay aside many of the petty squabbles in which we engage to devote ourselves to this question.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Mr.   MAODONALD@: That is not to say that the loyal Opposition in this free Parliament should allow hon. gentlemen opposite to assume a Kaiser-like attitude. It does not mean that, because the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) and his associates come to Parliament and indicate their will, we, the representatives of a free people, are bound ^to accept it, nor that these hon. gentlemen are to be above criticism.


Robert Rogers: Who is objecting?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The hon. member's method of objecting may take one form or it may take another. If I am to understand him as agreeing that we should devote ourselves to the consideration of the great question which I am discussing, I would accept his position frankly. What I complain of is that the Government has not devoted itself to the question of where Canada is to find herself at the end of this war. The hon. Minister of Public Works knows that. He knows that the president of the Canadian Pacific railway found it necessary, only yesterday, to raise objection to certain methods of the Government in that regard.


Robert Rogers: Was it only yesterday that he raised that question?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: So far as I know from reading the papers, he made a public utterance on that question yesterday. Of course, he may have been talking to my

hon. friend privately; if so, I suppose my hon. friend can tell us all about it.


Robert Rogers: Oh, no; he never talked to me privately.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I do not want to be diverted from the consideration of the matter which I am in all seriousness endeavouring to present to the House, solely with the idea of attempting to convince hon. gentlemen of its importance and of the necessity of dealing with it along big and broad lines. The consideration of the question as to where Canada is to be after this war may well occupy the larger share of our attention, because it is the supreme question affecting the Canadian people at this time. The future destiny of Canada is not to be eolved simply by declaring that immigration is to take place, or that this, that, or the other thing is to occur. We must deliberately, clearly and calmly analyze the economic condition of the country, see what changes >are necessary, see what preparation should be made, and 'endeavour to meet the condition which we know is to come. To-day in Canada we have colleges for the education of our pro- [DOT] feseional men; we have schools where our boys and girls are taught the rudimentary elements of education; we have agricultural schools, which receive encouragement and assistance from Federal and Provincial Governments. With the exception of the action taken in the matter of technical education by the provinces,
' which have strained their revenues to the limit in dealing with the problem, no action has been taken to provide for the training of our artisans in such manner that we in Canada shall be able to make things that we do not now make, and to make better those things which we do make at the present time. If we in this Parliament can do anything to attain that end, we shall be fulfilling in some measure our duty in this respect. In the province of Nova Scotia the advantages derived from assisting technical education have been demonstrated. Some twenty years ago mining schools were established in the province, in which men who worked in the mines could study in the evenings those things a knowledge of which would make them more efficient in their work. The result is that to-day it is our proud boast that the managerial positions in all our mines are filled by the sons of Nova Scotia, who were trained in these local technical schools. But outside of the local technical schools that are to be found 
in one or two places in the country, no organized attempt has been made to follow out a systematic method of technical education. 1 hope that it will be possible for the Minister of Labour to initiate at this session of Parliament some comprehensive and systematic method of training, in the application of technical education, the younger men of this country who are not going to the war. The marvels of the science of chemistry have been a potential factor in the development of this country; they should be put in the possession of the intelligent young people of Canada so that they may deal with them, elaborate them, and derive from them the results which have been obtained in Germany. Now is the time to begin. It will not do to begin this work after the war-that will be too late. The advantages which may be obtained in the way of trade, business, and other conditions, will all be pre-empted by other countries when the world gets right again, unless we begin now. The report of my hon. friend's department intimates that during the war a barrier to progress in this respect is encountered in a financial sense. I submit that that is not a barrier. If you deal with the problem of the vocational training of the soldier who returns from the war, you will take the money out of the war debt. Assistance to technical education in the different provinces would be just as much a charge upon the war debt as any expenditure for munitions or anything else that you buy for war purposes. You do the one thing in order that the Canadian boys can go out and win; if you do the other, you provide for a situation for which the war is directly responsible. I trust that I have not pressed this question along lines which will prove unacceptable to my hon. friend the minister. Canada's duty in this matter has always appealed to me as being one of the very highest importance. I have offered these remarks in no spirit of partisanship or of hostility to the Government; I present them as opening up a line of action for this Government upon which they should embark without delay.


John Hampden Burnham: I think the committee will agree that the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. E. M. Macdonald) has presented the case of technical education with a great deal of honest fervour and enthusiasm. The speech that he has made is one of those series of observations which go a long way in encouraging those people who have so vast an undertaking as this in their

hands. There was a time when the universe at large, more particularly what we understand now by nature, was a closed book. It is only one hundred years since it was first known that there was a mysterious substance called phlogiston in wood and in other combustible substances, which, when warmed to a sufficient degree of heat, liberated itself and caused the consumption of the wood. When it was discovered that it was the combination of oxygen with the constituents of the wood-or fuel, or whatever it might be-at a certain temperature which provided this astonishing result, the natural cause of the phenomenon burst upon the world at large, and the science of chemistry was founded. That was one hundred years ago. Since that time there has developed every conceivable form of natural and scientific curiosity. Each has rewarded the sons of men with the most extraordinary results, not the least of these being the science of hydrostatics or the dynamics of electrical science. All These things now provide the casual reading of men who a few years ago did not know anything about them. Our libraries now contain books of so clear and specific and, definite a character that any man or woman who has a reasonable degree of curiosity can take those books and read the romance of nature, which in terms may seem to be a contradiction, but which, as a matter of fact, is the most wonderful thing in the history of the universe. It is only a few years since people, some, indeed, now lingering upon the scene, looked up at the skies without knowing what they meant. It is only a few years since the matter of discovering, the constituent elements of sirius, the dog-star, flashed upon the world.; when Kirkhoff and Bernstein, following up Sir Isaac Newton's wonderful discovery of the spectroscope, produced the sprectrum analysis, when at once all those materials which go to make up this globe were discovered to be in the stars and in the suns that fill the vastness of space. The consequence was that mankind learned to realize the wonderful unity that exists, not only according to the laws of gravitation and movement, but according to the eopernican law, in all of those wonderful things connected with what might be called particularly the science of mechanics. As soon as all those wonderful things were seen, the unity of the qualities and constituents of the stars, the riddle of the universe was read. We have come down now to the time when the electron, that single vortex of force which so long ago was foreshadowed by Nervton and later
on by Lord Kelvin to be the ultimate constituent of matter, has been ascertained to be the necessarily ultimate constituent of matter. The unity of force and matter has been established. Force and matter for many a long generation were considered, to be two things; in fact, it was a great discovery when force was defined to be a condition of matter; but now they are ascertained to be one and the same thing. So that we have at last got down to the basis of all things, and when people at large understand this and are able to grasp the simple, great, overpowering and overwhelming fact that law, comprising a variety of laws, is the basis of the method and the matter of the universe, all the rest is comparatively simple, a matter of detail, and immediately becomes within the sphere of general knowledge.	,
Mankind was a wonder until the cell was discovered; and when the whole of the living world was discovered to depend on the ultimate constituent of the cell, when the cellular theory was outlined, humanity and all of nature become somewhat different. The inorganic and the organic world might then be related, and it was found that they were. At last it dawned on some inquiring mind that the crystal was alive -and then was bridged the apparent chasm between the organic [DOT] and the inorganic worlds. This inquiring spirit has raised the enthusiasm of mankind. Those men who for long years worked for an insufficient amount of money from early morning till late at night in a vague and precarious and hazardous endeavour to maintain their families and bring them up intellectually, are appealing to the world to be at least provided with the means of acquiring knowledge-not with the mere reward of toil, with wages. There is not a workman, an artisan, a mechanic, in the world who at the present time is not a professional man in the highest and the most dignified sense. These men are now working with an understanding of the principles of knowledge and the principles of construction, and doing this, there is no finer body of intellect or occupation in the world. Such a work as we are engaged in-mere administration, stained frequently by the vehemence and sins of politics-fades into insignificance beside their works. These men are the apostles of the great future, built upon their understanding of an infinitely great past. That in my opinion 9 p.m. is why the Classics have gone. At one time they ruled the world. If a man could jabber a little bit of Latin,

he was a wonder. If a man had a son who knew the difference between amo and canto, or some simple thing like that, he immediately proceeded to edify his neighbours by bragging about it, and frequently quoted a lot of Latin that never existed and that was forbidden by all the rules of syntax or prosody. But that made no difference,
And still the wonder grew,
That one small head could carry all he knew.
But that day has gone by. People are not frightened a bit now either by the sound of a dead language or by stupidity and superstition. They have worked their way into the uncommon nature of things and they have become imbued with this lofty spirit of knowledge. When I meet a man who understands what he is doing in the construction or the manipulation of steel, I, being only a lawyer, take my hat off to him. There was a time when I would have thought, not knowing any better, that if anybody was going to take off his hat he would be the man; but not now, that day has gone by. The mere cut-and-dried professions are nothing; it is the inquirer after knowledge to whom we have to look; and therefore, when we conduct ourselves in so sordid and mean a way as to pay vulgarly low and insufficient wages for the knowledge that these men have acquired and for the highly spiritual manner in which they apply it, and when we consider that their families are entitled to the best and are ready to take the best and ready to develop the best that we can afford, it becomes indescribably mean when we pay large sums to the grafters and vulgar manipulators of ordinary every-day life. The sin then becomes vastly greater, and, to tell you the truth, I can quite understand why it is that a man has written a book in which he says it is a sin and a shame to die rich; and the time will no doubt come when it will be considered a reproach to a man not to know enough to employ his money in the spread of knowledge- that such a man has not acquired the first element of knowledge, and we may rest assured that his mind and his taste are both equally vulgar and uncultivated.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: And what about these schools?


John Hampden Burnham: If I have failed to show you why it is that these schools are necessary, and why it is that their time has arrived, then my remarks have been in vain. I had hoped that I would have imbued gentlemen like yourself with that enthusi-

astic spirit which I at this moment feel for the acquirement of knowledge by one and all. That is why I introduced the subject in this way. I will leave its further dis-cusion to other men, like the hon. gentleman from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), who has so ably demonstrated the necessity of pursuing this matter with all industry and skill, and to the minister himself. I felt that perhaps there was something incumbent upon me to say which might induce or develop in us all that spirit of enthusiasm which itself is the very spark of freedom and of knowledge.
That it is which drives us on to higher and nobler things, for I am thoroughly impressed with this idea, that once your son ot your daughter has acquired a taste for real knowledge, there is nothing under God's heaven that can stop them except their last breath. It is a habit. It is a wonderful thing; but it is a habit that once acquired can never be given up. It is the only good habit I know of that is like that. But it is a fact, and therefore, if we can do anything, by word of mouth or in any other way, to induce others who are less skilled perhaps than we are to enter upon this way of knowledge and pursue it but for a short time, we can rest assured of one thing, and that is that they will never be able to forsake it. There is no going back; there is no apostasy. Disease, physical corruption, may overtake man or woman, but the spirit-the divine spirit- of knowledge, and love of knowledge, the breadth and singleness of purpose which true knowledge gives, which we see every day exemplified in scientific men who give up their priceless discoveries to the world at large without qualms or selfseeking, endure forever. If these men were politicians they would start dickering over every little thing-the invention of some contrivance to latch a door, or something of that sort; but that is not the divine spirit of knowledge. Once the divine breath of knowledge enters a man, he is spiritually regenerated, and, if at any time, fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. I know that the minister is imbued with this spirit of enthusiasm, and I pay him no idle compliment to-day when I say I know that, because I know many of the leading representatives of labour in this country, and they feel that he has their interests at heart. If I did not think he had their interests at heart I frankly would not pay him the deference of saying this,

but I think it, and I believe they think it too. Theie are other people, no doubt. I do not wish to derogate from the good qualities of anybody who has gone before.' I know that the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) was a man inspired with the desire to benefit the working men and develop their knowledge. It does no man any good to deprive another,of his just meed of praise. Before I sit down let me say-and I cannot express myself too strongly in this regard-that we must devote ourselves more than ever to the enthusiasm which underlies the acquirement of knowledge, and we can rest assured that if we do the people will 'be only too glad to acquire it.


Mr. S. FRANCIS GLASS (East Middlesex) :: Mr. Chairman, I desire to make a
few observations on this subject. There is in the House and in the country very little difference of opinion as to the desirability and need of lending our assistance to education in all its branches. I do not think that I go astray when I say that last week this House committed itself in a sense to the principle of technical education in accepting my resolution and approving of the methods that this Government has adopted to develop the flax industry of this country. I do not think that we have any reason to look farther for an example of the results to be obtained from technical education than the work which has been accomplished under the direction of the Department of Agriculture in the different counties throughout Ontario and, I understand, in other provinces. I think no better evidence of the interest which this Government has taken in the question of technical education could be afforded than the fact that in the distribution of the agricultural grants authorized by this Parliament provision was made that a liberal proportion of the money should be expended in the further development of agricultural education and instruction. Prior to the time when this system of imparting agricultural instruction in the various counties was adopted, we had our agricultural colleges in the provinces and our experimental farms in the Dominion, and young men from the farms were getting the benefit of the instruction that the teachers at the colleges and farms could impart. What was the result when they had acquired this knowledge? In only a very limited number of cases did the men who had taken advantage of these educational opportunities go back to the farm
to apply their knowledge to useful purpose in their own districts, but, on the other hand, the brightest and best of the men graduates from these colleges became instructors in the colleges and on the experimental farms of foreign countries and sister colonies. We would be in exactly the same position, from a medical point of view, if our doctors and medical men, after graduating from the universities 'and colleges of our country, ceased to prosecute their profession in our midst and gave to other lands the benefit of their study and experience. Under such circumstances, of what earthly use would they be to us? I may be drifting away somewhat from the subject before the committee at the present time, but I refer to this for the reason that our Government has awakened to the fact that if we let the brightest of our men get away from us, instead of devoting their education to the upbuilding of their own country, thd money spent upon their instruction will have been practically wasted. I remember that when the opportunity came a few years ago of making this new departure to which I have referred, the Government said to the gentlemen representing the county council of Middlesex : " We will send an expert up there who is trained in all the different branches of agriculture, and who is able to solve the various problems that confront the farmer in the carrying on of his operations. The Department of Education will pay his salary, the Department of Agriculture will pay all the expenses of sending this man through the county, and if any farmer has any particular problem, such as the analysis of soils, the spraying of his orchard or otherwise, let him apply to this man and he will help him." The Department of Agriculture paid his expenses, and the Department of Education paid his salary, and he was maintained there practically at no expense t<~ the county. To promote the principle of cooperation the Ontario Government suggested that the county council should contribute $500 per annum for equipment, whatever that might be; but I understand that in almost every case this $500 was paid back in premiums given at county fairs to encourage the development of agriculture. Technical or scientific education applied to the agricultural industry has been the means of largely increasing the value and amount of the production of agricultural communities in all parts of the different provinces.
I do not think there is any difference of opinion in this House or in the country as


Mr. D. D. McKBNZIE (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Coming as I do from one of the large industrial centres of Canada, I cannot allow this subject to pass without speaking a few words in support of the views so ably presented by the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), and supported by the other gentlemen who have spoken. This question of technical education is not new to us; we have listened to speeches upon it every session for the last ten or twelve years. The hon. member for Pictou is to be congratulated upon having been able to infuse new life into this question. I suppose that the war situation has stirred us up to attention to this matter as nothing else could have done. That being the case, the public mind being alert upon this matter, I think that the Minister of Labor on behalf of the Government might well take advantage of the opportunity to do what he can, in co-operation with other authorities, to put technical education upon a better footing than that upon which it now stands. We shall never do anything in this matter unless we make a start. The old saying is that the man who would play the violin must play the violin.
103*
The thing for the minister to do is to make a start. I submit that he will never find,the Canadian people in better frame of mind to stand behind him in taking the ' forward step than he will find them to-day.
Technical education is a question of many sides, many degrees, having many phases. But, considering it in its simplest form, technical education is learning how to do things; how to make a great many things better than anybody else can make them, and how to make plenty of them, so that we shall have an abundance for ourselves and be able to sell to other countries. In this way, we would grow to be a great manufacturing country, as they did lin England. We can never manufacture largely if we manufacture and produce only for our own population. There is no reason in the world why eight or ten millions of people should not produce an abundance for themselves and also be a great manufacturing and transporting country.
I believe that technical education will teach us to value things; to know what can be made out of things. I would point out to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, who comes from a lumbering province, that in the forests of New Brunswick the greatest ravages and the greatest plunderings take place. When a tree is cut down in the lumber woods of England, it is used from the roots to the last twig on the top; something is made from every part of the tree. This is done because they know how to use everything: they bind up the smallest twigs, which cannot be used for anything else, and put them up in bundles to be used as kindling wood. In Canada we have an abundance of raw material, but we do not value it; we waste it.	Technical education would teach
us	what can be produced	from
these things; it would enable us, with less labour and with less destructiveness, if I may use the term, to produce results of which we little dream. Perhaps I can impress the mind of the committee, and, perhaps of the minister, better than in any other way, by repeating an expression used by one of the Armours, the Chicago pork packers. Speaking about his own industry, Mr. Armour said: "Nothing in the hog escapes utility with us but the .squeal." Of course, they have not found anything that they could make out of the squeal, but nothing else escaped. That conveys to the minister my idea of the proper utilization of the raw materials which are to be found in this country. If we make the most of

what we have-and we cannot do that unless we know how to do it-our country will be very different from wdiat i't is. I have always deplored the fact that we send *out of this country so much raw material. Why should so much raw material go out of the province of New Brunswick in the shape of lumber ? Why should it ,not be manufactured in that province and afterwards exported to other countries? As it is now, the raw material goes -to the United States; our best, men, boys and girls, follow it and -work in a foreign country moulding out own raw material into the manufactured state. I see no reason why what is being done with raw material in other countries -should not be done with that material in Canada.
A great deal has been said about our copper, nickel, and other minerals. Is it not a pity that we have to send our niokel, out of the country to be manufactured? Is it not a pity that our copper must go out in a -semi-Taw state to be manufactured in another land? Evidently our people have not been educated -to know how to deal properly with this raw material. In my part of the country we are producing steel and iron in large quantities. There is no reason why that steel should not be manufactured in this country -into the finer articles which are made of steel. Why not produce knives, razors, and mechanical tools in this country? Why not make locomotives and engines, when we have the raw material? The reason is that we have not been educated to do it; orders have to be filled in a hurry, and they -are given to firms in other countries. The steel that we produce should be manufactured down to the finest article which is made of steel. If we have not the technical men to assist us in making a start, we can bring them in and educate our own boys; the development will be remarkable. Only a few years ago, the site of the present -magnificent steel plant at Sydney was an empty field. I suppose nobody in the island of Cape Breton kne-w anything at that time about the -making -of iron and -steel; the company had to import new men. To-day in those steel works you will find Canadians, Nova Scotians, mostly Cape Bretoners, doing the technical work in that immense plant. This condition was brought about by the operations of the technical school in Nova Scotia and the night schools to which the hon. member for Pictou referred. I think we have a splendid opportunity at this time of taking steps to 
make the people of this country dependent on themselves and independent of others. We should take such steps as are necessary to develop the vast wealth of raw material whi-ch is in our country, to convert it into the finished article, and to -make the anost of the opportunities that are within our reach. I must repeat that I am much pleased that the hon. member -for Pictou has put this subject so forcefully before the committee, .and I trust that his efforts and the efforts of other gentlemen who -have addressed the committee will hear good results.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Mr. Chairman, in the first place, I wish to express my deep appreciation of the hon. member for St. John's earnest appeal for the restoration of shipbuilding at Courtenay bay.


William Pugsley: I said in Canada; I did not limit it to Courtenay hay.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: His observations revived my great admiration for the facility with which my hon. friend changes his mind. His pathetic appeal for the restoration of ship-building on Courtenay bay almost brought tears to our eyes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: He did not speak about restoring the industry on Courtenay bay; he was speaking generally.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: He did speak about Courtenay bay. He said there was a great ship-building industry there. I have been there, and I think it is within sight of the place where my hon. friend spent his life from boyhood up. During the time that shipbuilding was disappearing from Courtenay bay, my hon. friend was a very influential statesman in the province of New Brunswick, and had great influence in the legislature of that province. During a portion of the time he had a very great influence in the Parliament of Canada. I * have yet to learn that during any of those years he did the first thing towards the restoration of ship-building on Courtenay bay.


William Pugsley: I am afraid the minister has not been studying history very much.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I had the honour of sitting in this House with him for three or lour years while he was in power, and I do not remember his having urged upon his party or the Government of which he was a member the necessity of doing anything towards establishing or re-establishing ship-building in Canada.


William Pugsley: We shall have to refresh the minister's memory.

Mi1. CROTHERS: If he did make any effort in that direction, it would only show that he had not influence enough with his party to carry them with him, because nothing was done. Although he accomplished nothing during those years, I want to say that I sympathize very keenly with the idea of establishing a ship-building industry in this country.


William Pugsley: The minister has been in power now for nearly five years and has done nothing.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am quite favourable to applying to that industry the principle of protection that we on this side of the House have advocated for many years, and I am pleased to think that, from
10 p.m. his observation, my hon. friend is becoming a convert to that principle. He desires that that industry should be assisted from the treasury of this Government.


William Pugsley: By granting a bonus.
Does my hon. friend take that to be a recognition of the protective system?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I should think so; I
think that is one form of protection. I understand that when this Government contributes public funds to any industry, it is protecting that industry to the extent that it applies public funds to it.


William Pugsley: I thought that protection meant keeping out competition.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I listened with great
interest to the instructive and eloquent observations made by the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) on the question of technical education, and also the similar observations made by the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Burnham), the hon. member for East Middlesex (Mr. Glass), and the hon. member for Cape Breton (itr. McKenzie). But, as hon. members will observe, there is on the Order Paper a notice of motion by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) on the question of technical education. I understand that that motion is to be taken up on Monday next, and I prefer to reserve any observations I desire to make on this matter until that occasion.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It is not arranged to our knowledge. There are a number of motions on the Order Paper that will come before it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It frequently happens that motions are taken out of their order.
That has been done several times this year.
I was also glad to hear the remarks of the hon. member for North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt), and the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) concerning the treatment which we should mete out to our returning soldiers. I am very glad to know that every member of this House, and I believe every person in Canada, appreciates to the full the great sacrifices that our young men are making in fighting our battles on the fields of France and Flanders, They are making the supreme sacrifice there. I sometimes wonder whether the people of Canada fully realize what we are fighting for. It strikes me we are fighting not only for the integrity and, honour of the Empire, for the liberation of Belgium and for the crushing for all time to come of Prussian despotism from the face of the earth, but over and above all things else we are striving for the independence and freedom of Canadians themselves. I firmly believe that a German victory would mean a German Canada, and that we are not, as some people say, simply rushing to the assistance of the Mother Country, as, of course, we did, but that we are fighting for the liberties we enjoy as Canadians, which would be sacrificed if Germany should win. That is the way I regard the war.


William Pugsley: I think we all agree with you in that.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I thought my hon.
friend made some observation to the effect that he did not believe there was any danger in that direction.


William Pugsley: I am sure we are going to win, that is all.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not so sure.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Oh ye of little faith !


Thomas Wilson Crothers: From my experience I have come to the conclusion that the man who is always cocksure he is always right is generally wrong, and the man who admits he is sometimes wrong is generally right. No man knows when this war will cease, or how it will cease and while we are in that position it seems to me we- should concentrate all our efforts on the successful prosecution of that war, and not divert our strength in any way whatever. We do a good deal of talking about economy, and about thrift, and about saving, and yet it seems to me that we are spending months here in doing business that could be done in weeks, and spending m&ny thousands

of dollars a day that might better he spent in the prosecution of this war-and we are doing some talking which I do not think contributes to the successful issue of this war.


William Pugsley: As for instance?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: As for instance? Every word that is uttered, in this House or out of this House that tends to shake the confidence of the people of this country in the capacity and honesty of this Government, to that extent encourages our enemies and discourages our friends in this country, and shouM, so far as possible, in my humble judgment, be avoided. I am speaking as sincerely as possible for me to speak on any occasion or on any subject.
I was glad to hear the hon. member for North Oxford and the hon. member for Edmonton speak about the manner in which the returned soldier .should be treated, especially in the direction of technical education. I am not aware whether it has been stated in this House before-if so, I am going to repeat it now-that the Government have not been unmindful of these things. They have considered them. A good deal of the time has been taken up in this House, months instead of weeks, that they should be devoting to a consideration of the best way of bringing this great war to a successful ending. But, they have thought a good deal about returning soldiers. Many months ago the Military Hospitals Commission was appointed, it is presided over by the Hon. Senator Lougheed, and it is composed of leading men from Vancouver to Halifax. They meet in different places. They have met in Quebec, Toronto and Montreal, and they are meeting in this city to-morrow. Shortly after they were appointed the Prime Ministers of the several provinces were invited to come to Ottawa and attend a conference to consider what should be done for the disabled soldiers. The Military Hospitals Commission, of which 1 have the honour to be a member, was sitting at the same time. The representatives of the various provinces held a separate meeting and then held a joint meeting with the copimission afterwards. Of their own motion, they proposed to undertake to find employment for all disabled soldiers returning to this country as far as it was possible to do so. With the view of carrying that out a commission has been appointed in each one of the provinces; at least, I know there has been one appointed in Ontario. That commission

has established a local committee in'each town in Ontario. When a soldier returns to the town they are supposed to meet him at the station, to look after him until some other provision is made for him and to do everything possible to secure him a position suitable to his ability.
We all perhaps could do something in that direction. If you will pardon a personal reference, I would say that the most important public office in my constituency was vacant a short time ago? I had a great many applications for it as you may readily understand. I looked around among those men eligible for the position. I found a man who, I thought, was eminently qualified to discharge the duties of the office. I knew that his only two children were in the trenches in France and, although he made no application for the position, I wrote and asked him if he would accept it, telling him that I would recommend him if he would. He accepted it and was appointed, greatly to the disappointment of many political friends who desired it. I have succeeded in placing two others who returned disabled from the front, one in my own department in Ottawa and another as a mail clerk on the railway. We all can do something in that direction. If we could locate one, two, three, four, or five, it would amount to something.


William Pugsley: Will the minister undertake on behalf of the Government that he will allow members of the Opposition to have the same chance of placing returned soldiers in these positions?


An hon. MEMBER:: Abolish patronage.


William Pugsley: This is a good opportunity for the minister.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I can only speak for
myself, and all I have to say is that I shall be very glad indeed to receive from any member of this House, whether on the Government or the Opposition side, any suggestions with regard to qualified men to fill any vacancies I have control of.


William Pugsley: That is a diplomatic
answer.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is just our position towards both parties.


William Pugsley: You might give us a
little more encouragement.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I want to give my
hon. friends a little encouragement. I was in my own town a few days ago, and

called at the house of a gentleman who has been a Liberal for a long time. He had three sons fighting in the trenches in France. Immediately across the street lives another Liberal, 85 years of age. He has only four sons, and all four are at the front. The last one was going to England with a nurse and his mother said to him:
" Archie, when you get over there, if you find you can do anything for the Empire, don't come back; your father and I will get along some way without you." I went to the next corner and came across a Tory who had only two sons at the front. There was another Tory across the street who had *hree sons at the front. When one of these people gets a letter he goes around to the others to read it; they sympathize with each ether, and they are being drawn together in bonds of friendship and affection by this war as they never were before. They are all doing their best, and it is up to us to do our best here. We must not squander our time or money, but we must put our whole effort into the winning of this war, and we must keep at it until the war is over. We realize the great questions that will have arisen when this war is over; but I do not think we should squander or waste our time in speaking of subjects that are not directly connected with the prosecution of the war.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN; In the British Parliament, and in the Parliament of France,, the greater portion of the time is occupied with matters not directly connected with the war, but rather with the future interests of the country and with conditions which are likely to arise after the war. My hon. friend takes a very peculiar view about this. It is a very peculiar thing for the hon. gentleman to say: I think it would be a great misfortune if the .conduct of the war were left directly to Parliament. It would be a very dangerous thing to leave the conduct of this war to Parliament.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend has a perfect right to his opinion in that respect.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But my opinion is. apparently the opinion of the world.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That does not make any difference.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do you want to be all alone?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I want to have my own opinion.


William Pugsley: The minister is up on a lonely pedestal. He is reading us a lecture.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No, I am not reading you a lecture.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did not the hon. member for East Middlesex (Mt. Glass) read copiously from debates in the British House of Commons, and did not the minister congratulate him upon that magnificent and illuminating speech?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not speaking for the British Parliament or the British House of Commons; I am stating my views as to what we should do in the prosecution of this war, and I say we should devote our attention to things that are connected with the war, although not perhaps directly. I do not expect that we should all put rifles on our shoulders and use them, but we should ask ourselves what we can do to contribute to the success of the war. I believe there are many men in this House who do not approve of everything that has occurred in England. There has been a good deal of dissention in the British House of Commons, and I do not think it has contributed to the strength of the English people in this war. I think it has tended to weaken them and to encourage our enemies. But I do not think that should occur either here, or in England, or in France, or anywhere else. I am asserting my own opinion in regard to it.
But, to return to- the matters upon which the hon. member for Edmonton and ttye hon. member for North Oxford were speaking in connection with the education, or re-education, of those who have come back from the war disabled. As I have said, the various provinces have undertaken to place these men, as far as possible, in suitable positions. They undertook, further, to allow us to use any provincial institutions for the re-education of disabled soldiers, so far as that might be considered proper. For instance, if a soldier returned to Ontario blind, we could send him to the blind institute for the province, paying the province a certain sum for his maintenance and education while there. If a'soldier returned insane, we could send him to one of the public lunatic asylums of the province, and pay his keep while there. We could send any number of returned soldiers to the technical

' schools in Ontario, paying the Ontario Government for their keep.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is that being done now?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not know if it is actually being done. It has been considered by the Military Hospitals' Commission.


William Pugsley: Do I understand that
soldiers who return to Canada after having been rendered temporarily insane, by reason of their experience in the trenches, are sent to the ordinary public asylums?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say they
were. Eacli case would be considered on its merits.


William Pugsley: I think these cases
ought to be given special consideration and treatment.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Of course. I am not going into details, but am simply pointing out what arrangements have been made with the provinces. The provinces undertook to get employment for these men as far as possible, and to use the provincial institutions. We agreed to pay a certain sum for the education and care of disabled soldiers. There will be some soldiers, of course, who will be permanently disabled and never again in a position to do work. Probably homes will be provided for them. That has been discussed by the commission. Then there are Convalescent Homes. There is one in Ottawa, in which thirty-seven soldiers are convalescing to-day. The soldiers who are sent to these homes will probably all be restored to health. We are not unmindful of the soldier. Nothing is too good for the man who has risked his life for the British Empire. This Government and the Provincial Governments, municipalities and commissions, are all co-operating to bring about satisfactory results. In individual cases the results may not be satisfactory. Cases of that kind always occur. One can only tio his very best. This commission, barring myself, is composed of some of the leading men in Canada. They are giving their services.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: You are too modest.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They are doing their
very best for returned soldiers, and will continue to do so regardless of any adverse criticism. I think that is all I desire to say on that question.


William Pugsley: I am very sorry the minister has made some remarks which certainly demand a reply from me. If I did 
not reply, it would seem as if I was doing an injustice to myself, and treating without due consideration the references of a personal character that the hon. minister has made. Before referring to the question of ship building, I should like to say that I do not wonder at the frantic efforts which not only he but other members and supporters of the Government have been constantly making to induce the people of this country to believe that this Government ought not to be criticized for their conduct while the war is on; that anything that would tend to * create a feeling of want of confidence	in the judgment or
integrity of	the	members of	the
Government would be injurious to the public interests during this terrible conflict. Well, Sir, I wonder if the minister proposes to bring in a Bill of a retroactive character to restore, Messrs. Garland and Foster to their places in this Parliament. They have been compelled to resign their seats in this House because of the investigations before the Public Accounts Committee last year in connection with the purchase of horses, drugs, bandages and things of that kind. If the doctrine of the minister and the Government be true, the Public Accounts Committee were exceedingly remiss in their regard for the welfare of the Empire when they presumed to investigate these matters, because necessarily the disclosures which were made tended to weaken the confidence of the people in the administrative ability of this Government.
(Mr. CROTHERS : Oh, no, the Government took an active part in the investigations.


William Pugsley: If it had not been for the action of the Liberal members of the committee in forcing those investigations, Messrs. Garland and Foster would still be occupying seats on the floor of this House. Therefore, upon the theory that the matters that have been disclosed ought not to have been inquired into for fear public confidence in the Government might be weakened,-upon that theory an apology is due to these two gentlemen, and some steps ought to be taken to give them back their seats in this House.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: You are misrepresenting what I said.


William Pugsley: Another thing. A commission has been appointed by this Government called the Economic Commission, and it has been considering the whole question of what is to be done after the war is over. Of course, it may be that this

Government did not think it would be in the public interests to appoint that commission, but, impelled by the mania they have for appointing commissions, they found it impossible to resist the bend of their minds in that direction. That may be the case; I do not know. But this Government has certainly got the habit of appointing commissions, and perhaps they no longer fight against it. Let us say to my hon. friend the Minister , of Labour that the unfortunate thing is not that the members of this Parliament have criticized the conduct of this Government and the conduct of their appointees, including the Shell Committee; the unfortunate thing is that there is ground for criticism. It is the fact that there is ground for criticism that weakens the confidence of the public in this Administration. That is the lamentable thing. We have the spectacle presented to the people of this country by incontrovertible evidence, that through the appointees of this Government there has been lost to the people of Great Britain and Canada at least $80,000,000 in connection with contracts for shells. The whole of that amount might have been saved if proper business methods had been pursued.	.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Was not the action of the people of this country in forcing an extension of the term of Parliament for another year an expression of their confidence in this Government?


William Pugsley: Let me say to my hon. friend that it was distinctly understood- and I for one wish it to be understood most emphatically-that the extension of the term of Parliament was not, and was not intended to be, an expression of confidence in the Government either by this Parliament or by the people of this country. It was a question of two evils: a question of continuing in power a Government in which many members of this House, and, I think, a large majority of the people of this country had no confidence, or forcing the people of Canada into the turmoil of an election while the war was on. Of the two evils, many of us, to our deep regret, felt obliged to choose what we thought was the least, so far as the interests of Canada and the interests of the Empire were concerned. Do not let the minister take any comfort to himself that the extension of Parliament means a continuance of confidence in this Government.
Do not let him think for a moment that it means that we are not to reserve our right
to criticise. When'the right hon. leader of the Opposition supported the resolution for the extension of Parliament he made it distinctly understood that the Opposition reserved the right to criticize wrongdoing whenever it should appear.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: You are wandering from my question.


William Pugsley: What was my hon. friend's question?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If the fact that the people had expressed, the desire that there should be no election for another year, and that this Government shoWd be allowed to carry on the work of the oohntry for that period was that not an expression of their confidence.


William Pugsley: Not at all. It was a
choice between two evils, just as it was amongst hon. members on this side.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: You were probably moved to act as you did by the feeling of the people throughout the country.


William Pugsley: When the people of this country, as my hon. friend will find* if he reads the newspapers, expressed the opinion that the term of Parliament should be extended on account of this war being in progress, there was announced everywhere in the public press an earnest hope that the Opposition would insist upon the strictest economy in the expenditure of public monies and upon the exercise of the very greatest degree of honesty in the administration of public affairs. My hon, friend, thinks he has a right to lecture us, and, perhaps, he has, but it will not have any effect. No matter what my hon. friend says, we will still endeavour to discharge our duty, as we see it, to the public.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am only repeating in substance what the right hon. leader of the Opposition said more than a year ago, and what the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Bennett) quoted yesterday.


William Pugsley: Nothing of the kind. My right hon. friend, in his speech on the Address, said that that was giving a distorted interpretation of his remarks. He said that he never intended to shut his eyes to wrongdoing or to improper expenditure of the public money. What he meant was, that, with respect to the Government's method of raising money for war purposes and of the actual carrying on of the war, even though the Opposition might not approve of the methods pursued, there would be no opposition. Have we not


Robert Rogers: I thought they were to be built in Montreal.


William Pugsley: If the hon. minister will take the trouble to examine the tender of Cammell, Laird & Go., he will find that they say that after a careful examination of the ports upoq the St.Lawrence and upon the Atlantic coast, they came to the conclusion that the port of St. John was that at which it would be most advantageous for them t->
establish ship-yards and build war vessels, and their intention was to build them there.


Robert Rogers: The hon. gentleman has
probably forgotten the facts. Was not there a difference of opinion between the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) and the leader of the Government of that day (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) as to where these vessels were to be built, and was not that the cause of delay?


William Pugsley: While the tenders were under consideration, questions arose as to who were the lowest tenderers. The offer of Cammell, Laird & Company was to build at Courtenay bay. There was a tender of the Vickers Maxim Company to build at Mont-

real, another tender to build at Halifax, and others at other places-six or seven tenders in all. But before we went out of office, the then Minister of Marine and Fisheries decided that the tender of Cammell, Laird & Co. was the lowest and returned all the deposits of other tenderers, leaving it with his successor to complete the awarding of contract, and leaving also the deposit of $100,000 of a guarantee. The Minister of Labour says that he never heard of my doing anything.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The hon. gentleman has not told us anything about shipbuilding.


William Pugsley: I said that the plans covered the establishment of large shipbuilding yards at St. John.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The hon, gentleman talked about the building of a wharf.


William Pugsley: It included also the building of ten war vessels, and there is something else that the hon. gentleman may not know but that the people of St. John do know-[DOT]


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There was no contract for the building of war vessels so far as I have heard.


William Pugsley: Does the hon. gentleman say there were no tenders?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No, but the Government of that day kept them for six months and did not either accept them or reject them.


William Pugsley: I have already said that when we went out of office, my colleague, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, decided that the tender of Cammell, Laird and Company was the lowest, and left that tender in his office, together with a deposit of $100,000 as a guarantee for the carrying out of the contract. When the present Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) took office, instead of acting upon that tender and awarding the contract for the establishment of a shipyard and the building of these war vessels at the port of St. John, the hon. gentleman, although representing that constituency, returned the deposit of Cammell, Laird and Company and allowed the whole matter to lapse.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Why did not that Government accept the tender?


William Pugsley: Had we done so, we should have been charged with having entered into a contract of enormous importance afteT we had, for the time being, lost the confidence of the people. We did not think it would be proper.


Robert Rogers: Why did not the Government accept them before that?


William Pugsley: The tenders were taken home to England by the then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, Mr. Brodeur, for examination by the Admiralty. The specifications were examined toy the Admiralty and approved. And when the hon. gentleman returned to Canada, almost immediately thereafter there was a dissolution of Parliament, .and there was no opportunity to act upon the tenders before that dissolution f(Ook place. It resolves itself into this: that I as Minister of Public Works called for tenders for the building of the works at Courtenay bay-my colleague the Minister of the Naval Service called for tenders for the building of war vessels, which involved the establishment of a great shipyard and .ship-building plant. When the present 'Government came into office these tenders for the shipyard and shipbuilding plant were abandoned and the deposit was returned. The hon. Minister of Public Works acted upon the tenders which I had invited, and simply let the contract for the Courtenay bay works, involving the dredging, the docks, *and the building of a dry-dock. I am quite prepared at any time to allow my conduct in connection with the development of ship building in Canada to be examined into and to be subject to all possible criticism. I desire to thank my hon. friend, the Minister of Public Works for the efforts that he has made to have the work of developing Courtenay Bay carried on under the plans which I had prepared, and upon which I had invited tenders. I regret that he has not found it possible to proceed more rapidly; I should like to have seen the work of the dry-dock much further advanced than it is. While I am on my feet, let me say one other thing in this connection-the Minister of Labour is responsible for my rising to my feet at all, which is, perhaps, an unhappy circumstance. In my judgment it is deplorable, after the effort that was made to have a transcontinental line built and operated from the Atlantic to the Pacific, that this Government has tried its very best to defeat the whole project. The road is completed between Moncton and Cochrane and

all the way on to Winnipeg. The road is a. magnificent one; the road-bed is the finest upon the American continent. They have a car ferry at Quebec, yet, Sir, they are practically operating only that ,part of the road between Cochrane and Winnipeg. Not long ago-


The CHAIRMAN:: I regret very much to have to bring the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that we are discussing an item of the Department of Labour, $35,000. When the item was read this afternoon, the consensus of opinion in the committee seemed to be that there should be a general discussion of the question of technical education. This discussion was carried on during the better .part of the day. It then seemed to be the desire of the committee to discuss shipbuilding, although, strictly speaking, the discussion of that subject was out of order. I must respectfully ask the hon. gentleman not to enter into a discussion of the Transcontinental railway; I hope he will confine the rest of his remarks to the item under consideration.


William Pugsley: I was wondering
whether there really was any ground upon which I could continue my remarks. I must concur absolutely in your ruling, Mr. Chairman. My only excuse was that the Minister of Labour departed from the rule, and that seemed to justify my following what I am bound to say was his pernicious example.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The hon. gentleman
himself began this discussion about shipbuilding.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order.


William Pugsley: I was never more earnest about anything in my life when I say that the Government ought immediately to bring down a policy of encouraging the building of ships in Canada. A great many people would thus be given employment; enormous advantage to Canada would result. If the Government do not do that without further delay, they will be guilty of a crime against the people of Canada. That is a strong word to use, but in view of the decline of Canadian shipping, and of the great demand there is for ships, I may say that it is a crime to delay longer the building of ships in Canada and the establishment of a Canadian mercantile marine on a large scale.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Unless we sit very late, it will be impossible for us to dispose of this item concerning the Conciliation Act, because it involves consideration of all
the matters that pertain to the labour troubles throughout the Dominion last year. Speaking on behalf of those who have discussed without party bias the important matter that has been dealt with, I must say that the ungracious manner in which the minister dealt with the question was rather surprising. It appears that the hon. Minister of Labour does not want hon. gentlemen on this side of the House to discuss questions in a non-partisan way. I leave it to the judgment of this committee as to whether any of my remarks in dealing with the question justified the minister in making the reply that he did. He took the ground that by virtue of the fact that this Opposition agreed to extend the life of Parliament for a year, we should sit here like a lot of automatons and register the decrees of gentlemen who happen to be in power for the time being. Hon. gentlemen opposite seem to think that by agreeing to the extension of the term of Parliament we gave them a certificate ot character. That is a ludicrous proposition.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Nobody suggested that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend did not know what he was talking about if he did not try to say that the people of Canada, speaking through us, expressed their confidence in the gentlemen who happen to be members of the Government for the time being. He even flattered himself that we on this side of the House had any confidence in the Government when they agreed to the proposal to extend the term of Parliament. Hon. gentlemen on this side of the House were dealing with these matters in an absolutely fair way, without trying to embarrass the Government or to delay the consideration of public business. We want to get through in reasonable time, but when important matters require consideration, we want to discuss them fairly. If we are to take these items up in order, I think I am in the judgment of hon. gentlemen on this side when I say that we are willing to let certain items pass and then adjourn. But in regard to the Conciliation Act-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The first resolution covers item 278 only.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That deals with the Conciliation and Labour Act, in regard to which I should like the minister to make a statement as to whether or not he intends to introduce any amendments during the session.

Mr. PITGiSiLEY: Let that stand and take No. 281.


Robert Rogers: Put them all through except one item, and let that stand.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No; if we do that, we will not see the minister again until just before the session closes, and there are very important matters connected with this item. There is the matter of fair wage officers in connection with munition contracts, and there is the Conciliation Act. Other important matters ape germane to this item.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Has not the hon.
gentleman in mind item 279, Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, rather than the Conciliation and Labour Act?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What does my hon. friend mean by the Conciliation and Labour Act?	[DOT]


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That Act refers
specially to railways. It is different from the. Industrial Disputes Investigation Act.


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend will appreciate the fact that hon. gentlemen opposite are not limited to the discussion of any question connected with any department at any time. No member on 'this side of the House has suggested that:	With one item
left, it will be quite open to hon. gentlemen to discuss anything they like.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There is very important discussion to take place, which will be participated in by hon. gentlemen on this side, some of whom are not here, on the position which the Government takes in regard to fair wage officers in munition plants.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That will all come under 279.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would be willing to agree to allow 280, 281 and 282 to pass, the understanding-being that the minister will next week, if the hon. member for Rouville makes his motion on technical education, give us a statement in reference of the Government's policy at that time; but the other two items are of importance and call for immediate discussion at the earliest opportunity.


William Pugsley: We might allow those two to stand and the other three to pass.
Items 278 and 279 stand.
Industrial training and technical education,




Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I understand that
the minister will be prepared to announce the policy of the Government in regard to technical education, and that an opportunity will be given to the hon. member for Rouville to discuss it on his motion.


Robert Rogers: The opportunity will be
given if hon, gentlemen opposite will let him reach that motion on Monday. It is an understanding between the hon. member for Rouville and the Minister of Railways.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.
Monday, March 13, 1916.