1916-03-01

[Stage Direction]
1 MESSAGE OF SYMPATHY.
Mr. SPEAKER:: I wish to inform the
House tljat I have received the following: Barbados, Feb. 24, 1916.
The Speaker,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
The Barbados Chamber of Commerce in annual session assembled desires to express to the House of Commons and the people of Canada Its profound sympathy and emotion at the destruction of their Parliament Buildings, and the deplorable loss of life caused thereby.



PRIVATE BILL INTRODUCED.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 41, for the relief of Lena Pearl Potter.-Mr. Wallace.
*	QUESTIONS.
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]
RETURNED SOLDIERS IN CIVIL SERVICE. *Mr. LEMIEUX:
How many returned soldiers have been given employment in the various branches of the Civil Service during the last fiscal year?
Mr. BLONDIN:: Finance Department, 1; Interior Department, 1; Justice Department, 1; Labour Department, 1; Marine Department, 1; Militia and Defence Department, 260; Railways and Canals Department, 14.



TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY GRAIN SHIPMENTS.

Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	How many cars of wheat have been shipped on the 6 cents per bushel rate on the Transcontinental railway, Armstrong to Montreal?
2.	How many cars of wheat have been shipped at this rate, Armstrong to Quebec?
3.	What is the rate on wheat from Armstrong to St. John, Armstrong to Halifax, and Armstrong to Portland, Me.?
4.	What are the rates on wheat for domestic consrmot'on from Armstrong to Montreal and Quebec?


Mr. REID:: 1.	Twenty cars.
2.	Eighty cars.
3.	Armstrong to St. John, for export,
14	-22 cents per bushel; Armstrong to Halifax, for export, 14-22 cents per bushel; Armstrong to Portland, for export, 14 -22 cents per bushel.
4.	Armstrong to Montreal, for domestic consumption 12 cents per bushel; to Quebec,
15	cents per bushel.



CONSOLIDATION OF RAILWAY ACT.

Mr. PAPINEAU:: 1.	What has been the total cost of the consolidation of the Railway Act?
2.	To whom was such amount paid?


Mr. REID:: 1.	The work of consolidating the Railway Act is in progress. Besides the work usually incidental to consolidation, thorough inquiries and investigations have been made, involving conferences' with the Railway Commission and other bodies, into the working out of the different sections of the Act, with particular regard to those in respect of which amendments have been offered in recent years. $7,000 has been paid on account of this work.
2.	To Mr. Samuel Price, K.C



SHELBURNE, N.S., IMPORTS.

Mr. KYTE:: 1.	What amount of dutiable goods was entered at the port of Shelburne, N.S., during the month of December, 1915, of the following classes of imports, respectively, and the value of each; rope, pianos and Organs; shipping, sail and steam ; and rough or surfaced lumber?
2.	How much duty was paid on each of the above classes of imports at the said port of Shelburne?


Mr. REID:: The answer to this inquiry
would disclose the value of an individual importation. It is not usual to give infor- . mation as to the value of individual importations entered at the custom house.



DIGBY GAP SUBMARINE BELL. '

Mr. JAMESON:: 1.	Was a submarine bell established at or near Digby Gap?
2.	If so, when was it established and upon whose authority?
3.	From whom was the application for the establishment of the bell received?
4.	What was the cost of such bell?
5.	What vessels navigating those waters carry apparatus for detecting the presence of a submarine bell?
6.	By what steamship companies are any such vessels operated?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Established January 7, 1915, by authority of Governor General in Council.
3.	Mr. Andrew A. Allen and Mr. F. L. Wanklyn.
4.	$2,154.85.
5.	When installation of bell was approved the SS. St. George, operated by the Dominion Atlantic railway, equipped with receiving apparatus, was plying on the route between St. John and Digby. The SS. St. George was subsequently withdrawn from the route, and there being no other vessel fitted with receiving apparatus regularly plying on the route, instructions have been issued, on the recommendation of the Lighthouse Board, that the bell be withdrawn.
6.	See answer to No. 5.



MUNITIONS WAGE BOARD.

Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	Has the Government been solicited by any one to establish a wage board for munitions? If so, by whom?
2.	Has the Government made any demand to the Imperial authorities or to the Munition Board in that respect? If so, to whom?
3.	Has the Government received any communication from the Imperial authorities or from the Munition Board respecting a fair wage clause on contracts for munitions? If so, of what nature, and from whom?
4.	Has the Government attached a fair wage clause on all contracts to which our Federal authorities are responsible? If not, why not?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	A discussion as to the establishment oi a fair wages board or boards has taken place with the representatives of the labour organizations. The discussion also had reference to the application of the Industrial Disputes Act in such cases.
2.	The subject has been discussed with the chairman of the Imperial Munitions Board.
3.	Confidential communications on the subject have taken place, and the Government has made its views known to the Imperial authorities in the following terms:
A fair wages clause is inserted by the Government of Canada for all contracts for supplies and munitions of war which are ordered by the Canadian Government for the Canadian Military forces. There is therefore no reason whatever from the standpoint of the Canadian Government why the contracts placed by the British Government in Canada should not contain a fair wages clause. In adopting that course the British Government would be directly in line with the course which has been pursued by the Canadian Government in its own contracts. The representatives of the Labour Organizations have been informed that the Government of Canada has no control whatever over the form or nature of such contracts, but that their suggestions would be recommended to the consideration of the British Government.
4.	Yes. Except in a few cases in the early weeks of the war, when telegraphic orders were given and no formal contracts were drawn up.



POPULATION OF CANADA.

Mr. ETIIIER:: 1.	What is the total population of the Dominion?
2.	What is the male population of the Dominion?
3.	What is the male population from 10 to 19 years inclusive?
4.	What is the male population from 20 to 29 years inclusive?
5.	What is the male population from 30 to 39 years inclusive?
6.	According to the above statistics, what proportion of the male population from 19
years to 40 years of age would remain in the country after the recruiting or enlisting of 500,000 men of that category?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	7,206,643.
2.	3,821,995.
3.	706,155.
4.	756,349.
5.	568,214.
6.	Sixty-two per cent.



IMMIGRATION AND PRODUCTION.

[Stage Direction]
* Sir WILFRID LAURIER:
Has the Government, in view of the scheme of co-operation in immigration and land settlement by the use of pub ic credit between the Dominion and Provincial Governments, presented to it, at its request, in a Special Report by its Commissioner, Mr. Arthur Hawkes, dated March IS, 1912, held any communication with the Provincial Governments looking to the development of immigration and land settlement on systematic and scientific lines? If so, with what results?
Mr. ROCHE:: The development of immigration and land settlement has been a subject of formal communication between the Dominion and Provincial Governments since March 18, 1912, and numerous informal discussions between officials of the various Governments upon this subject have taken place since that date, and the matter is now being carefully investigated by the Economic and Development Commission. In addition, at' a conference of immigration agents held in the city of Chicago, at which the Governments of the three prairie provinces were represented, the subject of immigration was thoroughly discussed, and steps taken to prosecute a vigorous propaganda in the United Stated, with a view to securing a larger immigration from that country.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Has the Government taken cognizance of a Resolution unanimously passed by tile Legislature of Saskatchewan in June, 1915, proposing closer co-operation between Provincial and Dominion Governments in regard to immigration and greater production from the soil? If so, what action has been taken to give effect to such proposals?


William Roche: The Dominion Government has appointed the Economic and Development Commission to consider amongst other questions the possibility of "increasing the acreage under cultivation " and of " inducing the settlement of an agricultural population upon the fertile uncultivated lands in Western and Eastern Canada." The Commission will inquire into " the means by which and the lines upon which the Federal Government, whether upon its own

sole initiative or in co-operation with Provincial Governments can best carry out an effective scheme of colonization."
As an evidence of our continued activity in the United States, and of our desire to act in co-operation with the 'western, provinces, the following letter from the Premier of Saskatchewan is presented:
Regina, 17th February, 1916. Dear Sir Robert:
Mr. Calder has shown me your letter to him of 22nd January acknowledging receipt of the joint resolution of the prairie province governments upon immigration work in the United States. All that you say and the suggestions and requests which you offer in relation to the co-ordination of Dominion and Provincial activities are very satisfactory indeed. In the meantime I attended, on Dr. Roche's invitation, the conference of federal agents held at Chicago, January 28, talcing downl with me Mr. Auld, our Acting Deputy Minister of Agriculture. I was highly satisfied with the spirit and proceedings of the Conference. From it I came away convinced that any impression existing that the United States agents had been relaxing their efforts was an entirely mistaken impression. For the recent disappointing results the agents are not to blame; they have continued working zealously in face of extremely discouraging conditions. In some respects their hands may be considerably strengthened by arrangements which will ensure to them more specific, regular and prompt information of affairs in Western Canada, and in this matter Mr. Auld's Department can assist and will assist in future in every possible way. You are of course aware that the Saskatchewan Government maintains that as long as your Government controls our public lands and other natural resources the implied guaranty given in 1905 should be respected, viz; that your Government should be responsible for all outlays for colonization in behalf of Saskatchewan. We have never entered upon immigration work, and will not do so until the control of public resources is transferred to us, but to the extent to which any machinery we have in existence can be used in helping your Government's efforts, we are earnestly desirous of assisting.
Believe me,
Very sincerely yours,



WALTER SCOTT.

Wilfrid Laurier: Has the Government received any communications from the Toronto Board of Trade or other bodies, urging the necessity for an improved immigration policy? If so, what are they, and what steps have been taken to give effect to them?


William Roche: Numerous representations for a changed immigration policy have from time to time been made directly and indirectly to the Dominion Government. The suggestions have varied from the advocacy of " a wide open door " to the most restricted form of " restricted immigration/* It has not been considered advisable to de-

part from the present policy of encouraging the immigration of suitable agriculturists and, when necessary* desirable female domestic servants, and the withholding of any encouragement to come to Canada of those desiring to follow other occupations.
Prior to the outbreak of war immigration to Canada was most satisfactory, as is evidenced by the following figures:
1910-	11	
311,0841911-	12	
354,2371912-	13	
402,4321913-	14	
384,878



NEW ZEALAND WHEAT PURCHASES.

Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Has the Government of Canada, since the outbreak of the war, purchased any quantity, and if so, what amount, of wheat on behalf of the Government of New Zealand?
2.	If so purchased, was it done on the request of the said New Zealand Government?
3.	Where was the said wheat stored, and is any portion of the said wheat now in warehouse in Canada? If so, where?
4.	What amount thereof has been disposed of, and when?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Yes. 1,406,732.30 bushels.
2.	Yes
3.	After its purchase it was stored in various elevators in Canada until shipped to New Zealand, or until otherwise disposed of. None of this wheat is now in warehouse in Canada.
4.	504,223.40 bushels have been shipped to New Zealand, and the balance, 902,508.50 bushels, were sold at New Zealand's request on the 10th January last.



WHEAT COMMANDEERED BY GOVERNMENT.

Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	What is the total amount of wheat commandeered by the Government of Canada since the 1st day of August last?
2.	What amount of said wheat has been shipped from the elevators, and the dates of said shipment?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	13,621,822.50 bushels.
2.	It is impossible to answer this question in its present form. In moving the wheat to the seaboard the same lot may have to pass through one, two, or more elevators, and would show as having been shipped from elevators one, two, or more times.



PURCHASE OF DESKS.

Mr. CARVELL:: 1. What is the value of desks purchased by the Government since the fire in the Parliament buildings?

2. From what persons or firms were the said desks purchased?


Mr. ROGERS:: 

UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports and documents of all kinds relating to the visits of a fair wage officer to New Glasgow, N.S., in connection with the schedule of wages of men employed in works making shells at that place. *
Mr. Carvell.-For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams, Orders in Council and payments of money with reference to the quartering of troops at Amherst, province of Nova Scotia, respectively, in the financial year ending March 31, 1915, and during the present financial year up to date.
Mr. Turriff.-For a copy of all letters, correspondence and telegrams between the Speaker, the Clerk of the House of Commons, the Civii Service Commission and the Minister of Finance in regard to the proposed appointment of Mr. H. Crossley Sherwood as assistant Clerk of Routine and Records, from October 1, 1914, down to the present date.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.-For a copy of all correspondence between the Prime Minister and Mr. Arthur Hawkes, during the years 1912 and 1913, relating to the Special Report on Immigration, published by the Hon. Robert Rogers in May, 1912, and particularly referring to the necessity for greater production from the soil, following the application of the Canadian Northern railway for financial assistance, and the speech of the Minister of Finance, in concluding the debate on the Budget, in April and May, 1913.
Mr. Graham.-For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, Orders in Council, etc., relating to the transfer by the Government of Ontario to the Government of Canada, of the rights held by the former in the lakes, dams, etc., contiguous to or forming a part of the Trent Valley Waterways System.

[Stage Direction]
On the notice of motion:
Mr. Carvell.-For a return showing the dates, quantities and values of all contracts made by the War Purchasing Commission so called, from its formation down to the present date.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: Perhaps the hon. gentleman may not fully appreciate the
amount of labour and the cost involved in the preparation of such a return. I am informed that it would take the entire staff of the department three months and that the cost would be very great. Perhaps, therefore, before proceeding , with this motion, the hon. gentleman might confer with the Chairman of the War Purchasing Commission. As far as the records of that commission are concerned, they are open to any member of Parliament who desires to inspect them or to look at the papers in relation to any contract. The hon. gentleman might, therefore, let his motion stand.


Mr. CARVELL:: If the House could be
furnished with information of this kind, it would be very valuable. My right hon. friend can understand the impossibility of a member of Parliament going to the office of the commission and getting any real information. However, I am quite willing that the motion shall stand for the present.
Notice of motion stands.



THE FLAX INDUSTRY.

Mr. S. FRANK GLASS (East Middlesex) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, taking into consideration the stability of the flax industry and the market value of the product, more attention might be given to promoting its cultivation in Canada ; that the flax and linen industries should, both as to culture and manufacture, receive that aid and cor s 'deration from the Government, which would enable it to assume the importance the natural resources of our country assure it. And to this end, serious encouragement should be given to farmers by such means as the Government, after full investigation, deem best to increase the production of flax throughout the Dominion.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, I desire at the
outset to say that I have been prompted to introduce this resolution as a result of observations in the districts surrounding that from which I come, and of representations made to me and to other hon. members, all tending to show that, owing to the very unusual conditions which prevail at the present time by reason of the destruction of the flax industry in the countries of Europe who are at war, it is peculiarly desirable that the Government of Canada should take advantage of the opportunity now presented to put the flax industry of this country on a stable foundation. When I placed the notice of motion on the Order Paper I was not aware that my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) had already taken the matter up. I desire just here to say that my hon. friend

from East Lambton has, during the recess, been very active in promoting the interests of the flax-growers in that part of western Ontario where the production of flax for fibre has reached its highest development. Before proceeding with the discussion of this subject 1 would like to present to the House, and record in Hansard, the views of flax-growers of western Ontario, who have, on their own initiative and in their own interest, stimulated as they have been by the unusual conditions, taken steps to promote the development of this industry. I believe that Mr Howard Fraleigh, ,of the village of Forest, Lambton county, is generally looked upon as one of the most capable and best informed men on this subject to be found within the confines of our country. He has been a successful man and he has given a great deal of time to research, study, and experiment in connection with all branches of the question of fibre production from flax. He is president of the association in the province of Ontario; and, in giving his ideas as to how the Government may best co-operate in promoting an increased production of flax, he suggests the following:
1.	Closer co-operation between the departments of the Government and flax men. For example, the experimental stations can scarcely do the flax growers much good unless they investigate wherein we need assistance. Again, it does not by any means follow that, because poor samples of flax may be grown on the Experimental Farm at Ottawa, the whole Dominion is unsuitable for the crop. Some such propaganda as the teaching of farmers what are the peculiar needs of flax in the way of cultivation would be advisable.
2.	The establishment of a flax bureau or commission, composed of men who understand flax and have its interests at heart. This bureau to have charge of the activities looking to improved methods of cultivation and manufacture, the education of the public in the true facts about flax, and the introduction of standards of grading both seed and fibre for export.
3.	Encouragement by the Department of Commerce in building up a greater linen industry at home.
4.	Some sort of bonus to growers of flax for fibre purposes, same to take effect after the war prices decline, and remain in force until the industry becomes re-established again.
5.	Government assistance to manufacturers in securing flax workers by encouraging immigration of Irish and Belgian flax-workers; or courses of instruction to young Canadians, such as are carried on in Ireland. Such courses could be given at the big agricultural colleges.
6.	Government encouragement to farmers to grow more flax, not only for their own profit, but to help nearby towns, and the Dominion at large.
7.	A series of government experiments, in collaboration with the growers, to determine whether water-retting can be successfully carried on in Canada on a commercial scale.

S.	Immediate and temporary assistance to our organization, as by the payment of the salary of our secretary, who is devoting his time to this work. Such assistance is extended to other organizations of an agricultural nature.
m
In connection with this subject, I have naturally found it necessary to make some investigations and to study the question from different standpoints, and I am indebted for a good' deal of the information I have been able to procure to the records of the Department of Agriculture of our own country as well as to the United States and to various states of the Union. In view of the very great importance of the subject at this particular time, I have prepared the observations which I have to make, and I would ask the indulgence of the House while I give them such information as I have been able to procure, hoping that it will impress upon the members of the House the need of this industry for assistance.
'Considering the various difficulties that flax culture has undergone in this country through the experience of many years, it may well be considered one of the curiosities of agriculture. There is nothing strange or unusual in the methods of cultivating flax as compared with cereals generally; nevertheless, there are features connected with its history that make the flax crop unique among agricultural products. The cultivation of flax and the manufacture of its fibre, date back to a very remote period. The great value of the plant has been known and appreciated for some thousands of years. The fact that Egyptian mummies were wrapped in linen proves that the use of flax fibre is very ancient. It is said that it was a well established [DOT] industry in Egypt at the dawn of the Christian era. Some three thousand years ago the Phoenicians devoted much attention to the cultivation of the plant, and subsequently the 'Greeks and Romans made the working of flax fibre a part of the household duties.
The flax plant is the source of two extremely valuable economic products, the one a fibre derived from the straw and noted from time immemorial the world over for its strength, beauty, fineness, and length of staple; the other, a seed rich in oil of such superior drying qualities as render it an indispensable ingredient in paint and varnish, and in the manufacture of linoleum, oilcloth, printer's ink, patent leather and other products. The full value, however, of both seed and straw from the one crop does not seem to have been realized

on a large scale in practical agriculture. The fibre, next to cotton, is the most valuable and universally employed textile in the whole range of vegetable fibres, and the plant can be grown in almost every part of the world where the climate is temperate. It has been cultivated to a considerable extent in Great Britain, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Kussia, Germany, Austria, Spain, and Portugal, and likewise in many portions of North and South America. Eecent investigations and statistics show that-of the world's total production in the year 1911, South America produced 33 per cent, Eussia 22 per cent, India 18 per cent, United States 18 per cent, Canada 5 per cent, and other countries 4 per cent. So that, if the ratio of production for the last year prior to the war, or even say for the year 1914, were the same as in 1910, it is evident, in view of the fact that the countries engaged in the world-wide war were producers of 49 per cent of the world's crop in 1914, that there must necessarily have been an enormous shrinkage of the world's supply of flax during the year 1915, and that this shrinkage will be likely much greater during the coming year and for some years to come.
It would seem that the time for active effort to increase production in Canada has arrived. In the year 1908 the Government of this country, through the Department of Agriculture, made some investigations relating to the industry in Canada, which resulted in the publication of a pamphlet by the department, giving some useful information. But it appears that this was not in any way followed up, or the research or experiments continued with a view of giving any permanent assistance to the industry, and as a result valuable time has been lost. It is a matter that may be questioned, whether the present position of the industry has been in any way improved. Stimulated by the demand for the products of flax which can no longer be procured in countries that were chiefly the source of supply prior to the war, the Government of the United States have inaugurated a live propaganda,. with a view to encouraging and developing flax culture in that country. It would seem that we in Canada would be neglecting our duty to ourselves, to the Empire and to the world, if at a time like this we did not awaken to the opportunities that now knock at our
doors by stimulating by every means within our power the development of flax culture and the production of fibre, and applying the fullest resources at our command to the study and means of making the best use of the various by-products which are incidental to the flax industry generally. As to how this may best be accomplished, there will be necessarily a difference of opinion, but that the whole subject is one that may well be considered by the Government through it's Department of Agriculture, who should be able to reconcile conflicting opinions and determine, in so far as the cultivation of the plant is concerned, just what is best to be done, I do not think any one in this House will doubt. But aside from this, there is a phase of the subject to which the Department Pf Trade and Commerce might well apply its energies. The Department of Agriculture can direct its efforts to the many problems necessary to the cultivation of the plant, the selection of seed, and possibly to the development of special seed suitable to the climatic and other conditions of this country. The department has rendered valuable aid in the matter of developing other cereals or seeds peculiarly suitable for our soil and climate. Though it is recognized that the best flax seed for sowing is imported from Holland, it may be that under experiments and with experience, our own Government may develop seed that will give better results in our country. It should be our aim to produce seed for the farmer that will give the best results, and that will assure the production of a fibre equal to the best that has been produced in those countries of Europe where for so many years the linen industries have not only given much employment to labour, but have also added much to their countries' productive wealth.
There are doubtless many prejudices in connection with the growth of flax. Farmers have an idea that its growth exhausts the soil, but the experiments carried on by the Department of Agriculture during the years 1906 to 1908, the results of which appear in Bulletin No. 59, show that this view is unwarranted. This bulletin asks: "Is flax a specially exhausting crop?" It answers this question as follows:
This question is usually .answered in the affl.mative, but this o inion does not app ar to be warranted by the chemical analyses which have been made of this crop, showing the principal elements of fertility taken from the



soil during the period of its growth. The results which have been obtained by chemical examination have furnished the following figures which represent approximately the plant food removed from the soil by flax, wheat and oats.
It is not necessary that I should give the figures, as the bulletin may be obtained by any one who makes application to the Department of Agriculture. Suffice to say that the summing up of the result is given thus:
It will be seen that the grain, in the case of the wheat crop, takes up a little more nitrogen and somewhat less of phosproric acid and potash than is taken by< the flax seed; while the oat crop takes for the grain a larger proportion of nitrogen, nearly one-third less of phosphoric acid and about one-eighth less of potash. The difference, however, in exhaustive effect of these several crops on a rich soil would scarcely be perceptible, and would not justify the opinion that flax is a very exhausting crop.
Notwithstanding these experiments made some eight years ago, it would seem desirable that the experimental farms should carry on investigations and furnish fullest information by bulletins to the farmers as to this matter. Doubtless with many farmers the prejudice is deeply rooted, and nothing bnt scientific experiments, which the Government can best carry out, and experience in results, will ultimately remove the objections which many farmers have to the growth of flax.
The United States have devoted a good deal of attention to investigations along the line of finding economic industrial use for the straw of flax, which is more essentially grown for the production of seed than of fibre, especially in those parts of the Western states, like our own Northwest, where the straw, instead of being returned to the soil, is burned. The result has shown that this straw as a by-product, may be utilized in many ways. From the paper-makers' standpoint, the flax crop represents a raw material of immense latent value, as it is likewise a source of great latent value to the farmer. In the United States, as in Canada, the seed flax of the West is different in type from that cultivated for fibre production, and because of this difference and of the methods of cultivating and handling the crop, the straw cannot be used to make a good spinning fibre. The straw resulting from the harvesting and threshing of this crop is usually burned, not because it has no intrinsic value, but because adequate industrial use has not been established to absorb it. A bulletin published by the United States Department of Agriculture dated January

7, last, reporting recent tests made on the utilization of seed flax straw in the paper and fibre board industry, states that successful commercial tests have been completed wherein domestic flax straw and tow were used in place of imported flax waste in the manufacture of fibre-board. The tests made were pronounced satisfactory and the product sold to the trade at the regular price for such boards. From an economic point, therefore, at a time when we are urged to conserve all the resources of our country, it would seem inconsistent that this country should waste its millions of tons of flax straw. Might it not be a subject worthy of the closest investigation of the Government to encourage the commercial use of this by-product?
Our acreage in flax in the year 1912 was equal to that of the United States in 1914. James L. Merrill, paper-plant chemist in the paper plant investigations of the United States Department of Agriculture referring to the waste of the straw of seed flax in that year, said that (1) its paper-producing possibilities would be equal to the annual production of wrapping paper, and more than double the annual production of writing paper in the United States; (2) its sale would represent, in add,ed revenue to the farmers, about $5,000,000 annually; (3) it would exert a very strong tendency towards maintaining the flax crop in our agricultural system; (4) it would probably result in the establishment of paper manufacturing industries where there are now none; (5) it would aid in making our paper industry more independent of foreign papermaking raw materials; and (6) it would produce a keener realization of the latent value of some of our enormous crop wastes. These investigations, which, have cost much in time and money, are surely worth 'the closest consideration of our Government, and they are in every sense as applicable to the conditions in Canada as 'to. those in the United States.
From every viewpoint the cultivation of flax would seem to mean, under proper conditions, more new-found wealth than the production of any other single plant. If it be possible-and some authorities agree that it is-to cultivate flax that will produce seed of best quality, and at the same time straw for fibre of high standard, much advancement will be made and the value of the crop greatly increased. Whether this be so or not, the prevailing opinion and custom in this country is to grow flax separately either for seed or for fibre. The

Northwest has produced flax primarily for seed, and so far little, if any, use has been made of the straw. In Ontario flax has been grown more for fibre, the proportion grown for that purpose last year being about four-fifths of the whole. The total value of the production of seed in Canada between the years 1910 and 1915, as per census of January, 1916, amounts to $87,933,000, so that the importance of flax growing to the agricultural industry is not inconsiderable.
The need of Government co-operation as a means to produce not only more, but better, flax has been demonstrated beyond any doubt. The Canadian Textile Journal, in its issue of September last, has an article contributed by Mr. Jas. A. McCracken, secretary of the Ontario Flax Growers' Association, who is probably in a position to speak with knowledge, in which he shows that in many respects t'he industry is groping in the dark, and needs the united cooperation of the Government in the propagation and production of a Canadian flax seed adapted to the peculiar needs of our climate and soils. In this article he says, among other things:
After close observation of the stanfls in various Helds of western Ontario and elsewhere for twenty years, I am a strong advocate of more particular grading and soil cultivation. Every fibre field I have ever seen produced a more or less uneven stand, more noticeably so than Helds of wheat, oats, or barley. This is the result of non-germinating seed, and the early death of many young plants from weak vitality. We certainly know too little about imported flax seed. We renew every two or three years. It comes to us from native conditions considerably different from ours. Most of it produces flax to be sure, but there are many failures of crop that seem attributable to nothing but the partial non-adaptability of foreign varieties to the soil and climatic conditions of Canada. There should be seed plots in this country where the talent and money required for seed breeding and development would be available. Our agricultural colleges are constantly evolving and creating new and excellent varieties of oats, wheat, barley and rye, but flax is practically neglected. No one man, especially now after a decade of depression, can finance this work successfully. It is a matter for combined effort and Government assistance. H. L. Bollry, botanist of the North Dakota Agricultural College, has shown what can be done in this direction by developing well-resistant seed and discovering that a spraying of formaldehyde makes the seed immune from exterior ravages by the spores of wilt and canker fungi. These are not vital considerations where fibre flax is grown ^on a studied rotation as in Ontario, but they show us what can be done by patient investigation and study.
The United States has a fibre bureau, which has been in operation for twenty-five years, working on flax, jute, hemp, and
other fibre-bearing plants adaptable to their climate. The Irish have special government flax bodies for the promotion of flax study, but Canada seems to be still in the dark in this respect, though it has been established beyond peradventure that flax for fibre can be produced in western Ontario of as good a quality as anywhere else on the globe.
Further, the Government having undertaken the task of developing a suitable Canadian, seed, may well further prosecute their investigations along the line of applied science and seek to determine the best methods to be employed in the production of tl>e fibre. Opinions . as regards this likewise vary. In many places, and generally throughout Ontario, it is still held that the old method of pulling the flax by hand is best. Against this the scarcity of labour has been a deterrent factor in the matter of greater production.. If experience and science demonstrate that those who hold to the view that pulling is the best method are right in their contention, then the ingenuity of man, and the aid of the Government, should be directed to the invention of machinery that would do this work with, economy of man labour, and to the cheapening of flax production. I understand that some advancement has already been made along these lines by the invention of Chas. H. Vessot, of Ottawa, and A. G. Mathers, who have produced a flax-pulling machine that in some measure meets the requirements and results in diminishing the cost of pulling by fifty per cent. Testimonials from prominent flax-growers in western Ontario bear testimony to the efficiency of the machine, and show that their experience has been that its use reduces the cost of pulling by from sixty to seventy-five per cent. By some it is claimed that this machine, while performing most effective and satisfactory work under certain conditions, is not yet so perfected that it will meet all conditions. It would there-* fore seem that Canadians have made considerable progress towards producing that which the ages heretofore have not yet, produced, a machine for pulling flax. Might not the" Government lend its aid to the further improvement and perfecting of this device? The Government could also materially assist in developing a process for the subsequent treatment of flax, which, while avoiding the difficulty of procuring cheap labour, would achieve the same -results as hand pulling. If such a system were worked out it should be possible to develop a large and important flax indus-

try which would take rank with the other great stable industries of Canada.
The proprietors of a mill at St. Catharines, Ontario, have for some years devoted much' time and investigation to this subject, and in their report on the subject the management say:
For several years past many machines have been devised and constructed and various improvements introduced having for their object the improvement of agricultural conditions- the. sowing, pulling and harvesting of the flax. These are all more or less successful and in time will be made entirely so, but the subsequent treatment of the straw and its conversion into fibre is the branch of the industry to which we have chiefly directed our efforts.
By the process which we have developed the hand pulling will be largely done away with, and the subsequent spreading in the field entirely eliminated. In future the flax will be brought direct from the field, threshed by specially designed threshing machines, and immediately baled by powerful hydraulic .process into bales each containing about 700 pounds of flax.
These bales are then carried by electric carriers or hoists and placed in large concrete tanks of a capacity of about ten tons of flax each. Here the flax is treated by means of bacteria cultures in water held constantly at the required temperature, by which means the flax is thoroughly " retted " in from two to three days.
From the tanks the wet flax is lifted by electric hoists and passed immediately to large specially constructed dryers, where in the short space of three hours the moisture is removed, leaving the flax thoroughly dry, and ready for the next operation.
From the dryer the bales are carried by overhead conveyors to the machinery room, where it is mechanically fed into large breakers ana the wood broken and crushed into fine particles, the fibre being carried automatically into large shakers or beaters, where it is thoroughly cleaned and the resultant fibre deposited into large bins ready for baling and shipment to the spinning mill.
From the above it will be seen that no experienced or expert labour is required. The process is short and inexpensive, Is positive in its results, and will produce a uniform grade of fibre. It can be done in any quantity desired. It is entirely free from weather conditions and can be carried on the whole year round and is not limited to a few weeks in the [DOT]'autumn as in the present system. Our mill is designed to handle 20 tons of straw per day, but additional mills can be erected and machinery installed capable of treating all the flax that can be grown in the entire country and as rapidly as the same can be produced by the farmers.
The object kept in view in designing and installing this plant for handling the flax has been simplicity and economy, and these two words are written large over the entire process ; from the harvesting of the flax right through to the baling and shipment of the fibre to the spinning mill, everything has been designed to handle the flax by the. most economical labour-saving methods so as to assure the farmer who grows the flax steady market for his product and at profitable prices, and also to insure our company in the opera-

tion of the plant a regular manufacturer's profit in producing the fibre for the trade.
It is now only a question of the intelligent co-operation of the Government with the farmers and flax producers to secure a sufficient quantity of flax-the raw material of the linen trade-in order to make possible the building up of a large and prosperous flax industry in the Dominion of Canada. It is simply a question of the production of the raw material and the investment of sufficient capital to manufacture the same into fibres, yarns and linens.
This firm, I understand, has been using this method with very satisfactory results, and it would seem that, as a result'of their experiments, a new era in the flax industry is about to dawn.
It would seem, therefore, that there is sufficient divergence of expert opinion to justify the Department of Agriculture in taking immediate steps to make a thorough investigation of the whole subject, and lending to agriculture and industry the aid of their practically limitless resources to solve the vexed problems that for years have been the stumbling block to success. The department might also take up the matter of utilization of the straw from flax grown, particularly for seed, by which as a byproduct at the present time is a
4 p.m. total waste, but which, under scientific use in applied industry, might become of economic value impossible now to conceive. Then there is the by-product of the flax, or I might say of the linseed mills,- the oil cake. This commodity, which is produced in considerable quantities as a necessity in the production of linseed oil>
is, I understand, a most valuable stock food, and yet only a limited proportion of what we produce is consumed by our stockmen. Does it not seem incongruous that, in a country like ours, with its millions of acres of grazing land, a country which beyond any other is peculiarly 'adapted to stock raising, this valuable by-product, linseed meal and oil cake, should be sent to Belgium, France, England, and other European countries to fatten and develop their live stock, and that our farmers, possibly for need of knowledge of its value as a feed to stock, do not avail themselves of its use. I say the Government can do much along the lines of conducting an educative campaign to correct these conditions, and to encourage the consumption, as far as may be necessary, amongst our stock rpen in Canada.	-
The Department of Agriculture, having applied itself to a solution of these problems, might not the industry be further encouraged by the Department of Trade and Commerce? Having produced our flax fibre, encouragement should be given to the

spinning of yarns in Canada, and this should be further followed by giving encouragement to the linen mills; otherwise, our country would receive only a small proportion of the productive value of the product, Fibre is the raw material of the spinning mill for years, and this yarn again is the raw material of the linen mill used in the manufacture of linens. It will appear that flax, developed to the limit of its possibilities, will produce a greater amount of increased wealth than any other plant grown; and therefore, in the words of my resolution, more attention should be given to promoting its cultivation in Canada, Both as to culture and manufacture, the industry should receive that aid and consideration from the Government which would enable it to assume the importance the natural resources of our country assure. In countries where its development has reached the highest stage, governments have appreciated its value and the need of government aid; and even in Great Britain, where bonuses and protection in the way of import duties are the direct antithesis of her economic policy, the need for granting bounties to encourage the production of flax in Ireland, was recognized as far back as 1911, and in a single year as much as $100,000 has been paid to producers in bonuses. Even here in Canada we have applied the principle of bounties to certain comodities. I find by the Trade and Commerce returns for the year ending March 31, 1914, that we paid in bounties a total sum
of $143,652.47, as follows;
Lead	$	8,179 45Manila fibre, used in the manufacture of binder twine and cordage. 17,959 73 Crude petroleum	
[DOT] .	117,513 29Total	$143,652 47
The bounties for twine making, amounting to $17,959.73, were distributed among only five producers-the Canadian Cordage and Mfg. Co., Ltd., Peterborough, Ont.; the Brantford Cordage Co., Ltd., Brantford, Ont.; the Consumers Cordage Co., Ltd., Montreal, Que., .and Dartmouth, N.S.; the Farmers' Binder Twine Co., Ltd., Brantford, Ont.; the Plymouth Cordage Co., Ltd., Welland, Ont. I say, therefore, it would not be inconsistent with the policy we have adopted towards other industries if we, like other countries, recognized the great importance to economic productiveness in giving to flax cultivation and flax fibre production most liberal aid, even if it implied liberal bounties to the farmers. If flax pulled is determined to be the best method of handling the crop, it would not be unreasonable to ask the Government to give a bounty on fibre production equal to at least half of the cost of the labour of pulling, which is said to be $8 per acre.
In France this policy has been and is now pursued. There they give a bounty of $5 per acre in cases where flax is pulled and utilized for its fibre. This policy has been fully justified, it would appear, from the resulting mammoth textile industries widely distributed throughout the northern, half of the country.
Ireland takes a different method, but an effective one, in stimulating flax culture. The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland has charge of flax education. A thorough course in flax culture and manufacture is given to students, and the young graduates are sent out over the country to spread the gospel of improved methods. Belgium, which for years back has been the home of the highest grades of flax products, is now devastated, and it might be possible, if the Government directed efforts to that end, to get a number of expert flax men from that country to come over to Canada and lend their aid and experience to communities in this country. A few of these men have already reached us, and can be found around districts in western Ontario such as Forest, Alvinston and Mitchell, and some have been engaged in flax mills in these districts. Around Wallaceburg there is a large colony of Belgians and Dutch. The fact that sugar beets and flax require attention at different periods of the growing season, together with the fact that both crops like best the same kind of soil, would encourage the hope that these industries might be developed side by side.
The possibilities for flax culture in this country are so great, and its economic value so immense, that I feel that our Government would fail in the discharge of their duty to agriculture and to productive wealth if they did not without further delay arouse themselves to the great need that confronts them with reference to this subject. The United States Year Book for 1913 shows that in that year Canada had under flax cultivation 1,553,000 acres of flax, and produced 17,539,000 bushels of seed, and the United States on an acreage of 2,291,000 acres produced only 17,853,000 bushels. The adaptability of our climate and soil would seem to far outrival that of the country to the south.
This subject is so important, Mr. Speaker, and the possibilities so immense, that the

discussion of it might be continued at some length. I feel that I have not only unduly trespassed on the patience of the House in presenting the facts that I have collected, though I must confess there is doubtless much that might be said concerning it that I have not said. In closing, I would just add that the grading of flax fibre, the sorting of it, and the establishing of standards would seem to be matters of importance, and should receive the consideration of the Government, as also co-operation in the marketing of the product.
The Secretary of the Canadian Flax Growers' Association has sent me a communication in which he outlines certain ideas and suggestions concerning a flax culture bureau. I do not wish to tire the House, but I would like to read this communication and to have it placed on reeoi'd as an expression of the views of a man who has had experience, and whose judgment is entitled to consideration:
Suggestions for Max Culture Bureau.
Arguments for its Creation.
Cotton interests have put flax into as much disfavour as possible. Canada can never become great in cotton. She can become great in flax. Flax cultivation has failed to advance and flax manufacture to succeed because the industry has never been boosted by big or influential organizations. Even the manufacturers of flax fibre are not united. Thus the educational propaganda necessary to place such an industry (embracing as it does many processes) on its feet and to overcome both the farmer's and the labourer's prejudice, has been lacking.
A single instance of successful fibre production in Canada justifies government encouragement, and support for the industry. Thousands of instances prove that first-class fibre can be produced in Canada.
The farmer's prejudice against flax is wholly unwarranted, as the experimental stations have proven. Flax, besides, is an enemy to the wire worm; flax entails a vigorous campaign against weeds.
Equipment of Flax Culture Bureau.
(a)	A demonstration car to be educational work for at least six months.
(b)	Permanent headquarters for the bureau, preferably at some point in the midst of the fibre region or, if advisable to have it in touch with the Department of Agriculture, at Ottawa or Toronto.
Duties of Flax Culture Bureau.
(a) To disabuse the farmers of their unreasonable prejudices against flax.
1.	By circulating exact information based
on tests, experiments, etc., as to the exhaustiveness of flax on the soil.
2.	By encouraging flax growers' associations.
3.	By creating or encouraging a mafiazine
devoted wholly to flax, for. seed and fibre.
4.	By driving home the lessons learned in
Russia, India, etc.
	.
(b)	"Made in Canada" cry. Have Canadian linen mills established, possibly by association of flax manufacturers. By stimulating a return to linen garments for summer wear.
(c)	Standardization of flax as to both seed and fibre; new Canadian strains to be developed ; encouragement of means, such as by baling the crops and by lower freight rates on such goods whereby growers remote from mills can profitably market their product in the sheaf.
(d)	Encouragement in the estiblishment of paper mills in seed flax centres, such as Saskatchewan, where coarse straw can be profitably utilizer.
(e)	A live publicity man in charge of the bureau ; an agricultural expert and a mill-man as consulting specialists; office help, etc.
As 1 said, the industry in the western part of Ontario, where more direct attention has been given to fibre production, has received a stimulus by reason of the greater demands and increased prices . resulting from the war, and of course the war has also decreased the production in the belligerent countries. The flax growers in the western part of Ontario, realizing their responsibility to the country, did their utmost to increase production last year; in fact, I doubt whether any other part of Canada made a more pronounced effort in that direction last year than the counties of Huron and Lambton. I know that my hon. friend the member for East Lambton (Mt. Armstrong), who is thoroughly conversant with that part of the country, will agree with me that this is a serious matter, and one which should commend itself to the most favourable consideration of this Government. '


Mr. E. W. NESBITT (North Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I had not noticed this resolution on the Order Paper until my hon. friend from East Middlesex (Mr. Glass) moved it in the House this afternQon, or I should have given the matter some thought. I notice that he hopes the Government will give ''serious" encouragement. Did he mean to suggest that the Government do not as a rule give "serious" encouragement to the farmers of this country? Well, perhaps the word is appropriate under the circumstances. I wish that my hon. friend, instead of merely giving a resume of the flax industry, had brought down some cut-and-dried proposition that we could have fully discussed. We all know, of course, that the flax industry is a valuable one, and that there is lots of room for improvement in that industry in Canada. A few years ago there was a strong agitation for flax mills in this country for the purpose of making paper out of the flax straw

in the West, which at the present time is burned or thrown away. Nothing, however, came of that agitation because moneyed interests could not be induced to advance money for the project. I quite agree with my hon. friend that it would be an excellent idea for the Government to appoint some one who has a knowledge of the business, and general business ability, to look into the whole question with a view .to making recommendations to the Government. I am quite sure that there are men in the Agricultural Department capable of doing this work.
Among other things, my hon. friend read a statement to the effect that oil-cake and flaxseed meal are not much used in this country by the farmers, and the writer of the article wondered why these foodstuffs were not more used by farmers, instead of allowing them to be shipped to foreign countries. On behalf of the farmer let me say that the up-to-date fanner in this country calculates just how much protein and fats there are in every feed he gives. If oil-cake at' a certain price will pay him better than oats at a certain price, he will buy oil-cake; or he will buy oil-cake in preference to cottonseed-meal if it pays . him better. But if it does not pay him to use oil-cake, then, like the rest of us, he will not buy it. The farmer who is progressive and knows his business has things calculated pretty fine and knows just which food pays him best. Cottonseed-meal with - 41 per cent protein pays better at $40 a ton than oilcake at the same price with only 35 per cent protein. I think oilcake in places like Woodstock is sold at $40 a ton laid down, and cottonseed-meal at about $38; but cottonseed-meal contains more protein or butter fat, and the farmers are therefore buying it in preference to oilcake. I can say positively from my own experience that oilcake is a very excellent food, but at the same time if other countries will pay more for it than our farmers, it is only natural that the producers should ship it to the highest market. There is no doubt that the fibre could be made up entirely in this country. Speaking offhand, I would say that the Government might very well look into the question whether linen could be produced in Canada from the fibre, also paper, and at what cost. If it could be shown that the proposition would pay, there would be no trouble in getting people with means to go into the business. The
Government might very well investigate this question, and then lay before the House a definite proposition as to the amount of assistance required.
I have nothing more to say except to endorse my hon. friend's resolution so far as it goes, but I do not think it is definite enough. I hope the hon. member for Bast Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) will give us something more definite than a general resume of conditions of the flax industry throughout the world.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton):: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to know that the hon. member for North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) is interested in this question and anxious to support the resolution. I agree with him that, instead of the words " serious encouragement," the words "immediate attention" should be inserted in the resolution, so as to make the resolution stronger. We must, however, qpngratulate the hon. member for East Middlesex (Mr. Glass) on the large amount of research he has made in gathering together the facts in regard to the flax industry and on the able manner in which he has presented them to the House.
This resolution deserves the attention of every hon. member, because practically every province in Canada is and has been deeply interested for many years in the flax industry, and when one takes into consideration the enormous production of flax seed and flax fibre or straw in Canada one will appreciate the fact that immediate attention should be given to the development of that- industry. I regret exceedingly that the serious accident which the Minister of Agriculture met with on the occasion of the fire in the parliament buildings prevents him being present. I cannot too highly congratulate the minister (Mr. Burrell) on what he has accomplished in past years, and while my remarks may appear to be somewhat of a criticism of the lack of interest or initiative shown by the Department of Agriculture in regard to the flax industry, I can assure you, Sir, that, in his administration of all the other branches of agriculture the minister is deserving of every consideration and confidence.
When war was declared, I called the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to the fact that the flax industry, in those countries that have for years been producing flax fibre in great quantities, was very much demoralized. I was able to show that France, Belgium and Germany, three of the large flax fibre producing countries, would for years to come be unable to produce the flax required for the linen mills of Ireland,

the United States and other countries. In the year previous to the war Russia had 3,500,000 acres under flax; but owing to the careless manner in which the flax industry is conducted there, the active men who are interested in the flax industry m Canada need not be afraid of that eom-petition.-
Last session, speaking in the House on the second day of March, I called the attention of the Government to the importance of investigating this question, to the need of immediate attention and assistance being given to our flax producing centres, and to the encouragement and education required for the development of the industry. I informed them that fifty years ago in the province of Ontario we had 80 flax fibre mills in operation; that forty years ago we had 65 mills; that twenty years ago we had 30 mills, and that two years ago we had only 9 flax mills. There must be good reasons for these mills going out of business, and I shall place before the Government some of these reasons, and point out the need of immediate attention being given to supplying a remedy. In Quebec, I believe that in Rouville there is one mill still in operation, and if my hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux) will look back at the history of the flax industry in his district, I am sure that he will appreciate my remarks and will support the resolution under discussion.
I have before me a map of the province of Ontario showing the districts in which flax mills were formerly located, the mills that are now in active operation, and those that have gone out of existence. The Department of Agriculture does not appear to give any assistance to this branch of agriculture, nor does it assist by experiments on its experimental farm its development. When one considers that in 1910, there were in the Dominion 476,000 acres under flax, 438,000 acres in Saskatchewan, 24,577 in Manitoba and 14,300 in Alberta, besides what was grown in Ontario and the other eastern provinces, we must realize the im-

portance of some active interest being taken towards the development of this industry by a branch of the Department of Agriculture which .should at once be organized for that purpose. We ought to have good seed for planting purposes so that we may increase the quality of the fibre. In 1911, in Western Canada, 1,500,000 tons of flax straw was burned, whereas if that had been turned into flax fibre it would be worth, at the prices current today, $100,000,000, and be it remembered that the farmers of the western provinces received only $11,555,000 for the seed which they produced.
As the hon. member for East Middlesex (Mr. Glass) has said: this is Canada's opportunity. Canada never can produce cotton, but she can become great in the production of flax, and there is no reason why every province of Canada should not assist in the development of this industry. Some years ago the Minister of Agriculture set aside $10,000,000 for the purpose of assisting in the education and development of agriculture throughout the various provinces, and if the Federal Government -are determined not to take an active interest in the flax industry, they should urge upon the Provincial Governments the need of expending some of the money that is handed over to them out of this fund towards that end.
The subject is one that should be dealt with entirely by the Dominion Government, it is a Dominion proposition. When you realize that practically all the products of this industry are exported out of the country, it will be seen that the Minister of Trade and Commerce should be deeply interested in the question. For instance, his is the only department from which we can obtain reasonably accurate returns in regard to the development of the industry. From the statistics gathered by that department in 1915 I find the following figures indicative of the progress which is being made by the flax industry throughout the country:

Table showing the Estimated Area, Yield, Quality and Value of Flaxseed in Canada, 1915.
Province.	Area.	Yield per acre.	Total Yield.	Weight per meas- ured bushel.	Aver- age price per bushel.	Total Value.acres	bush.	bush.	lb.	$	$600	11-89	7,000	5416	2.18	15,0005,000	12-38	62,000	50-78	1.72	107,00034,000	11-00	374,000	55 00	1.54	o76,0OO697,000	13 00	9,061,000	55-89	1.5J	13,592,000Alberta	70,000	16-05	1,124,000	56'37	1.49	1,675,000Total	806,600	13 18	10,628,000	55 28	1.50	15,965,000An industry in which the farmers of Canada are interested to the extent of over 800,000 acres is surely worthy of the' very best attention that the Department of Agriculture can give to it. I sincerely hope that another year-indeed, another month- will not pass without some definite organization being completed, and some effort being put forward for the development of the flax industry. Consider for a moment the enormous development that is [DOT]possible in the Northwest. When you realise that nearly 800,000 acres in the western provinces are devoted to the growth of flax, and that they have been able to grow it successfully in such large quantities for many years past and apparently intend to continue it, you must realize the great importance and poteniah-ties of the industry. They have received their returns entirely from the seed. If the fibre from that enormous area, could be made use of in the manner in which they make use of it in western Ontario, you can readily appreciate the enormous returns that could be made by the people of the prairie country.	.
Let me call your attention for a moment to some of the developments that are carried on in western Ontario. This industry might be developed in western Ontario to ,a much greater extent. The area under flax, grown for fibre, in southern Ontario during 1915 was about 4,000 acres. From this area the production of flax fibre was about 800 tons, which at the average price of approximately 20 cents per pound, or $400 per ton, was of a total value of $320,000. But some of the plants in that part of Ontario were able to receive ten cents a pound more than the price which I have quoted, simply because they were under the control of live, active flax millers who were able to produce the very best quality of fibre and export it to advantage. That meant ten cents a pound, or $200 per ton, to the men who were able to produce that quality of fibre. Then, in addition, 80 tons of tow, at $35 per ton, realized $2,800. The same crop also produced seed at the average rate of nearly 12 bushels per acre, or a total yield of 48,000 bushels, the value of which, at the average rate of $1.60 per bushel, was $76,800. About thirty per cent of the total production of fibre is shipped to Ireland, the rest being exported to the New England states. From a small area of about 4,000 acres there were returns to the people of that district of at least $400,000. Taking that into consideration, it is surely worthy of the attention of the Department of Agriculture.
I said that every province was interested in this proposition. We are not here today asking for a bonus, or a duty, but we-are here asking that some definite proposition should be presented as a result of which this industry could be developed along proper lines. Before I sit down I shall try and carry out the wishes of the hon. member for North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) by placing before the House a definite proposition. All that we are asking for is education and experiment. Go to the experimental farms in every province of this country and you will find that they are paying little or no attention to experimental work in connection with the flax industry. It is true that some little attention was given to it last fall. Mir. Grisdale went to Washington, and some slight efforts have been made towards inquiring into the needs of the industry. But I do not feel

that we should lose valuable time, especially when the market for the product is calling for enormous quantities of it at prices double what they were a few years ago and which should bring very great returns to the millers and farmers. In western Ohtario, in 1913, we had 2,500 acres under flax for fibre; in 1914 we had 1,300 acres, and in 1915, 4,000 acres. Our mills have increased in number until last year we had 27 in operation, largely in that western district.


Mr. PARDEE:: How much of the flax was grown in Lambton?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: We have five mills in operation in Lambton.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: How many acres of flax were grown in Lambton?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I would be afraid to estimate. The mills have increased in the last two years from 9 to 27 in the province of Ontario, and there are ten new mills that are to be opened during the present spring. I am satisfied that if a reasonably earnest effort were put forth a large number of these mills could be opened in different parts of our province, and in the eastern and western provinces as well.
I listened to the hon. member for East Middlesex while he was calling attention to the fact that foreign countries bonus and assist this industry in many ways. Surely it is a reasonable request for us to make that at least an educational campaign should be carried on looking to the development of this industry. In Russia they have established ten standards of flax fibre.
In Canada we have no -such thing as a standard for flax. Our millers are carrying on their industry by guesswork largely, sending their product abroad and receiving what little they can for it, while, as a matter of fact, they should be furnished with all kinds of information in regard to the markets for the disposal of this product and to assist them in the development of the industry. My hon. friend from East Middlesex called attention to what Ireland; through the Board of Agriculture, is doing for the development of the flax industry. Surely that is worthy of our consideration. In Australia the mills are assisted and an export fibre bonus is paid. Experiments should be carried on in all experimental farms; factories should be furnished with proper asistanoe and information in regard to the handling of the product, and the 
farmers should be educated by the distribution of pamphlets and of general information regarding the caTe of the product and the harvesting of the crop.
I believe that a division under the Experimental Farm Branch of the Department of Agriculture should be opened immediately, similar to the live stock division, field husbandry division, serialists division, forage crop division, horticulture division, poultry division, botany division and chemistry division.
The duties connected with this division should cover the sending out of literature from time to time to men interested in flax growing and production. The districts where mills are not now being operated should be visited, and if possible the owner should be induced to re-open these mills. Information and encouragement should be given the owners in the way of securing proper seed and giving encouragement to the farmers of the district. The flax mills in operation should be visited by experts at times of seeding, harvesting, spreading, retting -and turning, in order that the best results might be obtained. The person in charge of the division should see that the best seed is used for planting purposes. Proper grading of_flax fibre for export should be carried on. He should investigate the new means of retting and pulling which are being introduced from time to time. The miller should be kept posted in the latest European and American methods of handling the flax. Ways and means should be found for the disposing of flax and its by-products in Canada and in foreign lands. The flax grower should be assisted in importing the proper kind of flax-seed from Holland or elsewhere, and co-operation should be encouraged. The division should aim at the standardization of flax both as to seed and fibre. New Canadian strains should be developed. Encouragement should be given in the way of baling the crop, and information sent out concerning tests as to the exhaustiveness of flax on the soil.
Lower freight rates should be secured. The western provinces should be visited and a thorough investigation made into the methods of growing flax and the possibility of using the straw or fibre for export or milling purposes. The United States, Ireland, Holland, France and other countries should be visited and their methods of growing and curing the product carefully inquired into and studied. The districts located in the provinces of Quebec

and Ontario, where flax is now being produced, should be visited at the earliest possible date, and every encouragement given to the millers and farmers to become interested in the development of the flax industry. I appeal to the members of this House to give this matter their earnest consideration, and to the Government to take immediate action to secure the development of this industry in Canada along proper lines.


Mr. DONALD SUTHERLAND (South Oxford) :: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we
have listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks of the mover (Mr. Glass) and the seconder (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) of this resolution affecting what is in some parts of the world a great industry.
I was interested in the remarks of the seconder of the resolution with regard to flax growing in Canada. The fact that fifty years ago 80 mills were in operation in Canada-largely, I think, in the province of Ontario-forty years ago, 65; twenty years ago, 30; two years ago, 9, shows that considerable experimenting has already been carried out in connection with flax-growing in this country. I happen to come from a part of the country where some of this experimenting has been carried on. While I may not be altogether in accord with some of the views expressed by the mover and the seconder of this resolution, I do not want it to be understood that I am not in favour of all possible light being thrown upon the subject. I was impressed with the remark of the mover of the resolution to the effect that the views which he expressed were based upon his own observations. There are two sides to the question. I believe that the prejudice of the farmers against flax production, referred to by the secretary of the Flax Growers' Association, is not unnatural. While the growing of flax . in Canada since the beginning of the war has proved unusually profitable, by reason of the good prices received for the fibre, yet, having regard to the agricultural condition of the districts where flaxgrowing was extensively carried on for a number	of	years,	I for	one
do not look favourably upon the encouragement of the industry. In the harvesting of a flax crop the whole plant is taken from the soil, even the root. It is said that machinery has been invented whereby fldx may be cut and harvested like other grain. To my knowledge, however, that experiment was made thirty-five or forty years ago, and the objection was that the very best of the fibre was left on the field. When you think of the fight that the farmer is continually
waging against noxious weeds, you will appreciate the difficulties that he has to contend with in growing a crop of flax. The whole crop has to be pulled; this operation involves a good deal of labour. In western Ontario I believe the custom has been to get large numbers of Indians from the reserves to camp in the flax-growing districts and pull the flax. The flax was stuked up on the land, and as it remained there for a considerable period, the farmer was unable to cultivate the land immediately after harvest. All the weeds that grew in the crop, being left on the soil seeded there, and in a short time the land became impoverished and full of weeds. Farmers who engaged in flax-growing for a number of years were eventually driven out of the business for that reason. Of my own personal knowledge, I know of farms that were rendered practically useless for any other purpose simply because flax was grown upon them for a number of years, and only after many years were they restored to a reasonable state of productivity. I do not know so much about the condition in western Canada, but I am satisfied that with the new lands they have there, they can grow great crops of flax. I doubt very much, however, whether their climatic conditions will permit them to rett the flax so that they can separate the wood from the fibre. In western Ontario the conditions in the fall of the year are different from what they are in Western Canada. If you look over the records I believe you will find that flax growing is popular only in countries where they have cheap labour. I believe that India is the largest flax-producing country in the world. Argentina is second, and Russia third. United States is a large grower of flax, but she does not engage in the industry as these other countries do. The labour conditions in Canada make it very difficult in normal times to grow flax at a profit. I am satisfied that the farmers of western Ontario would make a great mistake if they should change their system of agriculture and go into the growing of flax, which entails a great drain on the land, whose fertility can be maintained only by the usq of artificial fertilizers. I am satisfied that agriculture must be carried on more scientifically in Canada in the future than has been the case in the past. In Ontario, in years gone by, when there was a great deal of new land, flax was a splendid crop to sow on the land the first two or three crops, while rotting the sod, levelling the soil, and bring-

ing it under a system of cultivation. And I believe that even to-day in those sections where mills have been re-erected, the prevailing custom is to sow flax on sod with a view to rotting the sod. But I am afraid of the consequences and I would not like to advise the Government to encourage the growth of flax in this country. A few years ago, I believe, a certain association claimed that they were able to separate the fibre of flax without rotting it. The unrotted flax fibre was going to revolutionize the whole system of flax growing, not only in Canada but in the world. If that were the case, probably in Western Canada it would be a great boon to that country, because I have no doubt that with the system of farming they are able to carry on there, with a rich, virgin soil which will undoubtedly stand cropping for a number of years, they could make it a very profitable enterprise. I have my doubts as to the possibility of making that industry a success in Ontario, particularly in those districts where they have had considerable experience in the growing of flax. ' I have fresh in my mind the scene that meets my eye every year when the grain is maturing and when I pass through those districts in which flax used to be grown quite a number of years ago. You find that in those fields, even to-day, it has been impossible to obliterate the effects of growing flax. The fields in those districts .are as yellow as gold with the wild, mustard that grows in the soil as a result of the cultivation of flax. I believe that the weed nuisance, if I am not permitted to describe it by a more severe name than that, is the greatest enemy the farmers of Canada have to contend with to-day, and that it is costing this country annually hundreds of millions of dollars. I believe that the Government will have to resort to drastic measures in order to stop the spread of noxious weeds. It must not be longer tolerated. I do not wish to couple these objections with this resolution, but the two are so bound up, in my mind, that I can scarcely separate them.


Mr. HAZEN:: How has the growing of flax caused' the spread of wild mustard?


Donald Sutherland: For the reason I pointed out, that it is almost impossible to pull weeds among flax without tramping it down arid destroying the crop. With other crops you can go through and pull out what mustard there is in the field, but you cannot do that with flax. The mustard matures and the seed spreads on the ground

before the flax is ripe. The same thing is true of other weeds.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How is it that in western Ontario, where we have the oldest-established flax mills, which have been in continuous operation for many years, the farmers in the districts convenient to them are the most successful farmers in the country?


Donald Sutherland: In my boyhood days, which is a considerable time ago, we had three mills in the county in which I live, and for the last 15 or 20 years there has not been a mill in operation there. I understood from the remarks made by the hon. member for East Lambton that 50 years ago there were 80 mills, 40 years ago about 45 mills, 20 years about 30 mills, and 2 years ago only 9 mills in Canada. I think that is a sufficient answer to the question.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is there not a mill at Tavistock?


Donald Sutherland: Tavistock is partly in Perth Comity. I am not sure whether the mill is on our side of the line or not.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It is on our side.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Some time ago I, in common with other members of this House, received a letter - from Mr. Fraleigh regarding the giving of some consideration by the Government to the flax growers of Ontario. I think this question aifects the western part -of the province to a greater degree than any other part. I cannot, with my knowledge of the subject, go into details as other gentlemen have done, but from hearing the figures given to-day and from reading the circular to which I have referred, the subject appeals to me in this way, that if there is the large acreage growing flax which has been quoted by the hon. member for East Lamb-ton, and if the mills have gradually fallen off from their former prosperity, and if, as the flax growers seem to think, the growing of flax, if properly attended to and with sufficient co-operation between the Department of Agriculture and the growers, is a profitable business it is a fit and proper case for the favourable consideration of the Government and the demands of the flax growers ought to be acceded to, because they are simple demands. They say, in their circular, simply that they desire more co-operation as between the experimental farms and such institutions and the flax growers. Even if the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Suther-

land) is correct in the statement that the sowing and reaping of flax is liable to leave more weeds in the ground than the 'sowing of other grains, then there would seem to be even greater need for the Department [DOT]of Agriculture stepping in and finding out if that state of affairs actually exists, so that the farmers and those interested in the growing of flax may know whether they are sowing a crop that it is advantageous for them to grow. I only desire to repeat that with the acreage sown to flax and the extent of the industry in western Ontario, it appears to be a proper case for the consideration of the Government. If they are not receiving sufficient consideration from the Government and the Department of Agriculture, surely the department should undertake such experiments as will satisfy those interested in the industry that everything is being done that will be of advantage. If the result of these experiments proves that it is not a desirable industry, the flax growers should be told that. The whole matter seems to be in an experimental stage. Then surely it is the duty of the Department of Agriculture to make exhaustive experiments, and so the Government might well accede to the request made by the flax growers.


Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, judging by tile figures that have been given by hon. gentlemen opposite, it [DOT]vuuld appear that, during the past few years, the principal acreage of flax has been grown ;n the West, more particularly in the Province of Saskatchewan. As hon. members are aware, some years ago the price of flax was very high. At one time the farmers got, I think, as much as $2.25 per bushel; I know it was around $2 a bushel for a considerable period, and during those years a great deal of flax was grown. As was pointed out by one hon. member, we have never made any use whatever of the straw on the prairies; it has been used either for feeding, or has been burned, which ever was most convinient, I imagine, for the farmers. The money they made out of it, w.as altogether out of the seed. Anything done by the Government in the way of carrying out the wishes ' of the flax growers of Ontario, or of ascertaining whether the flax grown in the West is of the right quality to make a valuable fibre that will be worth money on the market, would I think be a step in the right direction. I certainly think it is the duty of the Government to take some steps, for after all it would be a simple matter to make the necessary experiments.
I know that a few years ago a company, having its head office in the Old Country and .a branch here, made some experiments, and tried to do something in the way of establishing mills throughout the West.
Their purpose was, as I was 5 p.m. informed, to pay-the farmers so much for the flax straw, after it came from the threshing mill, or so much an acre for the flax straw unthreshed; in fact, to cover both the grain and the straw. So far as I am aware, however, nothing was accomplished in that direction. Among the things that would help the flax industry in the West, there is one which I noticed that my hon. friend who moved the resolution (Mr. Glass) and the hon. member for Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) did not include.
I refer to the removal of the duty on flax going into the United States. So far as the flax in the West is concerned, Duluth is the principal market. We cannot consume the flax grown in our country, at least not a very large portion of it; we have to export it. A few years ago when the price was high, a duty of 25 cents a bushel, though a large tax, did not interfere with the growing of the flax, hut when the price went ' down, as it did a year ago, to something around $1 a bushel, a duty of 15 cents on flax going into the United States was quite enough to keep some farmers from growing flax to any extent. I would suggest that if the Government could secure the abolition of the duty on flax going into the United States they would probably do more than could be accomplished in any other way to encourage the growth of flax on the prairies. I think it would be better to adopt a system by which the straw could be used for mercantile purposes, but in the West I do not know that that idea would ever take a very great hold, because labour is high, the farms are large, and the settlements are thin and scattered. They would have to draw the straw a considerable distance, I imagine, in order to have it treated, but whether that would be the case or not I do not know. What I am sure of is, that something ought to be done by the way ol experiment, and I think the resolution moved by my hon. friend (Mr. Glass) is in the right direction. I trust that the Department of Agriculture will take hold of the question, find out something about it, and give the House the result of their investigations at an early date.


Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: The views just expressed by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) are very much in accord with those held by myself.

In the southern part of Alberta there is a considerable acreage of flax, not so much in recent years as formerly, and I am sure that if there was more encouragement for the use of the by-products of flax, there would be a greater acreage in that part of Western Canada. Flax grows there with a great deal of success, and the farmers are anxious to find some use for the flax straw.	They would also like to get
a much higher price for the flax if that could be secured. The flax straw problem has been discussed by the Board of Trade of the city of Lethbridge, and I understand that a few years ago a gentleman from Holland or Belgium travelled through the western country with the idea of establishing a factory for the purpose of utilizing this straw. I think that the Department of Agriculture should give every encouragement to experiments along that line. We are going into intensive farming more and more, and we do not want to waste anything. At the present time flax straw is being wasted, throughout Western Canada at any rate. It is of use in other countries, and we should ascertain whether it is not practicable to use it in this country so that the farmers may get full value for the flax which they grow.


Mr. WILLIAM WRIGHT (Muskoka):: I think that one of the reasons why farmers do not go in for growing flax is the excessive cost of threshing and marketing it. This applies perhaps more particularly to the great western country where there is a very large quantity of farm weeds. While threshing operations are in progress with regard to larger grains, such as wheat and oats, it is a comparatively easy matter to separate the weed seeds from the grain, but when you try to separate them from flax, you find it a much more difficult proposition. The result generally is that a certain percentage of those small weed seeds find their way into the flax when it is threshed, and a very large deduction has to be made when the farmer comes to sell it. Even the cleanest growers of flax have to face a reduction of 15 per cent when they sell the flax; that is, that amount is deducted by the elevator companies from the quantity the growers may happen to have in the oar. Then, as the hon. member for Assmiboia mentioned, the price cuts a considerable figure, the threshing of flax costs a good deal in the West. I have known 25 cents per bushel to be charged for simply threshing the flax; 20 cents per bushel is a very common charge in the West. The thresher will

thresh oats for perhaps 6 cents a bushel, and wheat for from 8 to 10 cents per bushel, according to the manner in which the threshing is done. The fact, therefore, that the cost of threshing flax is so much higher than that of threshing wheat or oats, that the- deductions are so much greater, and that there is difficulty in getting the whole crop to ripen at the same time so as to enable the grower to eliminate the immature seeds, all militate against the farmer in the growing of flax. The result has been that a good many farmers in the West, who would otherwise have made a success of it, have given up growing flax.
Perhaps under better conditions this might be made a more profitable crop. The farmers in the West say that they can get a crop of flax off land that would not be a success in growing wheat or oats, and a great deal of the flax of the West is produced under those conditions. As regards the province of Ontario, the people in the district from which I come go in for growing flax in only a very limited way indeed. I should be very pleased to see the Government take this matter up, and see whether something could not be done in the direction of utilizing flax straw. It is a question, I think, that comes very properly within the purview of this Government. Men have visited this Parliament in past years, bringing plans with them, and claiming that they had machines that would pull flax successfully; they said they had some process by which flax could be made mer-chantably profitable _ But as to all these things, our farmers are in very great doubt indeed, and I do not think it would involve any great expense if the Government put some of these processes to the test, in order to find out whether there was any hope of making a success of the flax industry in this country. If some way could be found of utilizing the straw in our great western country, it would certainly be worth while. Flax straw is cut up very much finer than ordinary straw in threshing, and the thought has sometimes occurred to me that perhaps flax straw could be compressed into bricks and used for fuel, like we use peat in the East. There have been in the West experiments with the burning of straw in large ovens or stoves, and the waste in the burning of the straw has been to some small extent utilized; at all events, attempts have been made to utilize it. Any one who is accustomed to growing flax in the West knows that it gives off an immense heat when fired, and I think there is a great

deal of this kind of heat stored up in the West. I should like to see this suggestion tested out, along with any other tests the Government may make when they take hold of this question.	*


John Douglas Hazen: The resolution
proposed by the hon. member for East Middlesex (Mr. Glass) opens up a question which I think is of very great importance and of very great interest as well. At the outset I may say that I can see no objection whatever to the adoption of the resolution, with this exception: the resolution suggests that " aid " should be given. It says:
That the flax and linen industries should, both as to culture and manufacture, receive that aid and consideration from the Government, which would enable it to assume the importance the natural resources of our country assuj'e it.
And in speaking to his resolution the hon. member for Middlesex also suggested that it might be desirable for the Government to give a bonus to encourage the flax industry. I do not wish any misapprehension to exist on that point. I do not think the House wishes it to be understood that in voting for this resolution they are voting for a resolution which contemplates giving a bonus for the encouragement of this particular industry. The word " aid " might possibly give the impression that financial aid was intended, and I would suggest to my hon. friend that " aid " be eliminated, and the word " encouragement " substituted therefor. I do not think it is the intension of the House to pass a resolution at the present time giving financial aid to this industry, but if that was the intention of the hon. member for Middlesex, I might point out that such a resolution could not properly emanate from a private member, by reason of the rule that resolutions involving money grants must emanate from a member of the Government. I therefore suggest that the word "aid" be struck out and the word "encouragement" be substituted therefor. The matter which my hon. friend has brought to the attention of the House, like all other matters affecting the agricultural industry of this country, is of great importance, and anything that can be done to encourage the farmers of this country to go into an industry that will be of advantage to them will be of very great value to the country generally. The flax industry in Canada to-day, as appears from the figures of the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong), is not a small industry. The value
of the flax produced last year in Canada, as my hon. friend has pointed out, amounted to $15,965,000-a very considerable amount, but very small in comparison with the value of the flax that could be produced in Canada if it was thought desirable, in the interests of the farmers and in the public interests, that more should be produced. Of that $15,965,000 worth of flax, over $13,592,000 was produced in the province of Saskatchewan alone. Of the balance, $1,675,000 was produced in Alberta, $576,000 in Manitoba, $107,000 in Ontario, and $15,000 in Quebec; while in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and British Columbia no flax at all was produced. The $13,592,000 of flax that was produced in Saskatchewan was grown on 9,061,000 acres, and I believe that the great portion of that flax was grown, not for the purpose of producing fibre for making textiles and linens, but for the seed, out of which oil is made for feed for cattle. My hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) has pointed out that there is not a large enough market in Canada for the production of a large quantity of flax, and that it might be of some assistance to the flax producer of this country if the United States Government removed the duty on flax. 1 might say to my hon. friend that so far as the production of flax for the manufacture of oil is concerned, there is a very great demand in Canada to-day for a much larger production. The paint makers of this country have been in communication with the Department of Agriculture about it, and have represented that the demand amongst the paint makers of this country to-day for the oil produced from flax seed is very much in excess of the supply in Canada at the present time. Not only is that the case in Canada, but there is also in Great Britain to-day a very large demand for linseed oil, and if the acreage in Western Canada was increased to a very great extent over what it is now, there would still be a market in Great Britain and Canada for all the oil that could be produced from the extra amount of flaxseed grown. I think my hon. friend, had more in mind, as the hon. member for Lambton had, than the growing of flax for the purpose of fibre out of which textiles could be produced. I speak without any practical knowledge of the subject, and only with such information as I have been able to obtain from reading, and in discussion with others, but I think I am correct in stating that the variety of flax from

which seed is produced for the purpose of oil, is not the best sort for the production of fibre out of which textiles can be manufactured. There is a difference in the quality and, to some extent, in the nature of the flax that is used for these different purposes. I might say the Department of Agriculture has been taking steps along the lines which have been suggested in the debate this afternoon, and I trust they will be of such a character as to satisfy the farmers of this country as to the advantage or disadvantage of raising flax in Canada. As was pointed out by the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland), who addressed the House some time ago, there is an apparent difference of opinion with regard to this matter. In certain parts of the country where farmers have ceased producing crops that at one time they produced, they have done so because, being alive to their own interests, they concluded that other crops would pay them better. This may be the^ reason why the farmers of Ontario are at the present time producing less flax than they did fifty years ago when the industry was, according to the figures given to-day by the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong), quite a flourishing one; but I know of sections in the eastern part of Canada where years ago the people produced a considerable quantity of wheat and where now they have altogether abandoned its production, finding it more profitable to purchase their flour from the millers of Western Canada and to use their lands for the production of crops of an entirely different character. Yet I have known of a case where, years later, under altered circumstances and conditions, farmers have returned to producing those crops which at one time they thought it was better to abandon in order to produce other crops that were more profitable, and that could perhaps be produced more easily. The same conditions may apply to the production of flax in Ontario. When the farmers of Ontario abandoned the production of flax to the extent stated by the hon. member for East Lambton the conditions may have been very different from those prevailing to-day, and, in the section of country from which my hon. friend comes, the farmers are evidently finding it to their advantage to return to the production of flax, because, if I understand my hon. friend aright, where two years ago there were only nine mills, there are now twenty-seven mills and ten more mills will be added during the present year. I conclude that the farmers, who are pretty 
good judges of their own interest and. who are practical men, have, at least in that portion of western Ontario in which the Lambtons and the Middlesexes are situated, decided that under the conditions that exist to-day it will pay them to raise flax, and consequently farms are being planted with flax and mills are being erected for the purpose of retting and scutching the flax after it is produced.
My hon. friend from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) has referred to the fact that flax is not regarded as a desirable crop because of the difficulty of doing away with and destroying the weeds that grow amongst it, and because in pulling up the weeds, the fibre of the flax is apt to be destroyed, since, if I understand the flax business correctly, flax cannot be mowed or harvested as can wheat and oats. It has to be pulled up by the roots, because some of the very best part of the fibre is contained in the root, and if the flax is cut off by a mower or a reaper, a great deal of this very best part is wasted. Thus, in pulling up mustard weeds, which grow amongst the flax, there is danger of pulling the flax up and destroying the fibre and to a great extent destroying the crop. That is a matter that should be considered by the experts of the Department of Agriculture; and it is altogether likely that if experts n the culture of flax and experts in the experimental farm work take the matter up, they will be able to find a remedy for this trouble. At the present time the people interested in the flax business are endeavouring to find a remedy by the invention of machinery for the purpose of pulling up the flax so that the labour problem may be overcome, and the work of pulling not so expensive as it has hitherto been. I have before me the photograph of a machine invented for pulling the flax, which, if successful, will very much lessen the cost of pulling.
I have stated that the Department of Agriculture has taken this matter into its serious consideration. Mr. Grisdale, director of Dominion Experimental Farms, was some time ago directed by the Minister of Agriculture to look thoroughly into this matter with a view of working along the broad lines .suggested in the resolution now before the House. The result has been that the growing of flax for fibre has. during the past year, received very considerable attention from the department. A quantity of flax has been grown on the Ottawa Experimental Farm, and

there have been collected in the various provinces where, flax is grown, samples which have been retted here and scutched at Forest, Ontario. For the information of hon. members who perhaps know very little about the flax business, I may say that "retting" simply means "rotting," and is spelled with an "e" instead of an "o." This process is generally ftarried out by placing the pulled flax, or what we might call the straw, in water, and allowing it to remain for four or five days. At the end of that time the ligneous matter is retted or rotted to some extent and separated from the fibre. The mass is then taken out of the water and allowed, to dry, when it becomes quite brittle. It is then put through corrugated rollers and broken up. The next step in the treatment of the flax is the scutching. The scutching machine consists of an instrument something like a wagon wheel with the felloes removed and seven or eight spokes left attached to the hub. This is rolled over the straw, and by this means the woody portion is knocked off and the fibre is left. The fibre, as we have it in Canada, is something like.the sample that I have in my hand, and it is not manufactured into linen in this country, but is shipped, in this condition. This work has been going on at the experimental farm', and some very good samples have been obtained by means of this process.
In August last Mr. Grisdale, director of Dominion Experimental Farms, made a general investigation into the status of the industry and the possibility of its expansion in Canada. A bulletin on the subject of flax for fibre in Canada has just been prepared, and when printed it will be distributed generally amongst prospective flax growers. Mr. Grisdale has made a report on the subject, from which I will quote a few extracts:
Acting under instructions from the Minister of Agriculture, the Hon. Martin Burrell, the writer has, during the last two or three weeks, made an effort to learn something about the " flax fibre " producing industry in Canada and the United States as to (1) information available in Government bureaus, (2) men capable of taking part in the propaganda to increase production and encourage the industry in Canada and available for such a purpose, (3) the line such a propaganda might follow, (4) the present state of flax for the fibre producing industry in Canada and the United States, and
(5)	general information on the subject.
For this purpose Mr. Grisdale first of all went to Washington to see what information he could get there from the secretary of the fibre division of the United States Bureau which is connected with the
Department of Agriculture of the United States. His visit there, however, showed him that very little information of real value had been collected by that division. The files showed but a,very small knowledge of people interested in the actual production of flax for fibre in the United States, and Mr. Grisdale found that the two men apparently recognized as the best men in the industry in the United States were Mr. B. Summers of the Summers Linen company, Port Huron, Mich., and Mr. Mc-Caul, of the James Livingstone Flax company, Yale, Mich., while in Canada the only man recognized as an authority was Mr. G. Howard Fraleigh,. of Forest, Ontario. Mr. Grisdale proceeded from Washington to Chicago, where he had an interview with Mr. Dewey, who, I understand, is connected with the Department of Agriculture at Washington, but who was not in Washington at the time of Mr. Grisdale's visit. Mr. Grisdale, in his report, states
Through kindness of Mr. Taylor, I was able to get into touch with Mr. Dewey by telegraph and to make an engagement to meet him in Chicago. This I did and found Mr. Dewey very sympathic in his attitude towards our efforts to gain information along various lines of interest in connection with fibre flax. He admitted, howeter, that neither he nor Mr. Miles, his assistant, was in a position to help us out although he expressed willingness to do anything he could in that way. Their knowledge was, he admitted, theoretical, rather than practical and the bulletin recently prepared by Mr. Miles was largely of the nature of a compilation rather than a work based upon results of practical work done by their division. The work being carried on by the fibre division with flax is along the following lines:
(a)	Improvement of varieties by selection from experimental plots being grown in the United States and by importation of new varieties. Blue and white blossom varieties are being tried out from seed imported from Russia, Belgium and Ireland.
(b)	Study of cultural .methods on farms in various parts of Michigan and Wisconsin.
(c)	Study of machinery and manufacturing methods.
(d)	Study of the fertilizers and soil requirements of the crop.
(e)	Dissemination through the medium of bulletins and leaflets of information collected.
Mr. Dewey corroborated what I had learned at Washington as to Summers, MeCaul and Fraleigh being the best men in America from the flax-for-fibre producers standpoint.
Heaving Chicago, I next visited Mr. Bartrand
S.	Summers, of the Summers Linen Co., Port Huron, Michigan, and was by him shown all through the rather extensive plant of this company. In this plant I was so fortunate as to see every operation under way except the threshing.
This company-which is really Mr. Summers 

is the only firm known to carry on chemical retting on a commercial scale in the flax world. The threshed flax is baled and brought in from as far as 25 or 30 miles in box cars. It is



retted in a large steel cylinder, probably 20 feet long by 10 feet in diameter, lying on its side and having two port holes with iron doors on top. It will ret about 5 tons at one time.
In Mr. Summers5 opinion the most serious problems confronting the growers of flax for fibre to-day are: (1-) better varieties, (2) better cultural methods, (3) a pulling machine, (4) better fertilizing methods, (5) more information on best time to harvest, (6) a scutching machine.
He considers that if a puller could be perfected a tremendous advance will have been made in the industry in America and that fibre flax would immediately take a prominent place among crops over very considerable areas in Canada and the United States. He considers climatic and soil conditions over practically the whole of western Ontario as highly suitable for production of fibre flax.
Mr. Summers has built a flax puller which has given fairly good results and he thinks that he may yet be able to make a really first class machine of this kind. Mr. Fraleigh, of Forest, Ont., with whom I discussed this machine seems to think that Mr. Summers would eventually have a really good puller. Mr. Summers has also built a scutching machine which he showed me, but he did not seem particularly optimistic as to its future, admitting that: it was far from perfect yet.
Mr. Summers did for some years manufacture rugs from a certain proportion of his output of fibre. These rugs so'd well and wear well. He has, however, been forced to abandon the manufacture for the present on account of a fire in his factory and the scarcity of suitable dyes since the beginning of the war. Mr. Summers imports seed from Holland and Russia and also from Canada. From Holland he gets the best seed from Mr. Lucard-e, of Rotterdam. Mr. Summers claims to have found a market for a part at least of the ligneous residues from scutching. It is to be used by a certain company as a base for a stock food.
Mr. Summers advised me that the best man in the business of producing flax for fibre today in America was Mr. G. Howard Fraleigh, Forest, Ont. So, on leaving Port Huron, I crossed to Sarnia thence to Forest and there met Mr. Fraleigh already mentioned several times above.
Mr. Fraleigh I found to be an enthusiastic and energetic grower of " flax for fibre He has been in the business some twenty odd years and seems to have made a decided success financially. He handles about 500 acres of flax for fibre each year. His plan of operation is. he states, practically the same as is followed all over Ontario and in Michigan. He rents fields of varying size from farmers in a radius usually of 5 or 6 miles but occasionally farther afield. The soil preferred is heavy loam, clay loam, or clay. Sometimes fields of lighter soil are selected but this kind of land is not favoured since the crop is more likely to suffer from drought in the early part of the season and so be short in the staple. The farmer undertakes to plough the land, at the time approximately indicated by the operator, disc-harrow, roll and harrow until ready for the seeder. Once the field is ready to sow the responsibility and the work of the farmer cease.
The report is a very interesting one, and will well repay the careful perusal of any member of the House interested in this and other agricultural subjects, but I cannot

trespass upon the time of the House by reading very much from it.
Mr. Fraleigh states that the industry of flax growing for fibre production in Ontario is at present in rather had shape for the reason, as he thinks, that the business has to some considerable extent got into the hands of promoters and others having no practical knowledge on the subject or at best very small experience. This is due to the fact that no new blood has been coming into the practical side of the business for some years and that recently the old men have been dropping out. Their business, where not allowed to go down, has usually been taken hold of by a promoter who has seen in it a chance to make money and is now using all the devices or schemes of the promoter to make it go and to make as much money out of it for himself as he possibly can. He claims that the old line men and the new men or promoters have little in common.
In the opinion of Mr. Fraleigh, as expressed to me, the thing that would do the most good to the industry in Canada would be the appointment of a man, who could immediately go out and help the producers by showing them how to grade their fibre products. Lack of proper grading methods results, he claims, in the loss of many thousands of dollars each year in Ontario. Such a man might also do something to help the industry by visiting the farmers and giving personal advice and also by getting out instructive literature.
The above report summarizes as briefly as possible such of the information I have been able to gather on the subject of flax for fibre production in Canada and the United States, as seems to me to be of sufficient importance to justify its incorporation herein.
The impression left upon me by all I have been able to see, and by the men I have had a chance to interview, I shall attempt to summarize in the following few sentences:
1.	Flax for fibre production in the United States is quite a negligible industry. It is confined almost entirely to Michigan and includes, I am reputably informed, not over five operators. The most important of these are the Summers Linen Co., Port Huron, Mich, and the Jas. Livingstone Flax Mills, Yale, Mich. Recent failures in various parts of the United States in this industry due to wrong methods- due to promoters-would seem to indicate no expansion in the near future.
2.	The Fibre Investigation Division of the bureau of Plant Industry, Washington, has carried on very little investigational work with flax and is not in a position to assist Canada with either information or men capable of collecting or imparting information on the subject.
3.	The Industry in Canada, while apparently profitable is in the hands of a very few people. There would seem to be room for a very considerable expansion.
4.	Prices for fibre .are high. The districts in Russia, Belgium and France where flax for fibre is grown most extensively are being devastated by the present great war. In some cases a large percentage of the men and other labourers formerly engaged in this industry have been killed or scattered. It is probable, therefore, that it will be some years before prices' will be materially lower. It would on this account seem an opportune moment to encourage expansion in this industry in Canada.

5.	The peculiar character of the industry in that it affords opportunities for gain to both farmers and artisans and to labouring men, women and children (for the last three as well as for the first under very healthful conditions) would seem to make it an industry well worthy of every effort on the part of any Government, to foster and encourage.
6.	Another peculiar feature of the industry, that it might employ a considerable number of labourers of all kinds in small centres close together which would not complete but rather, help each other by their actual co-existence in a country, seems to me most insistent of consideration.
7.	The sources of profit from the crop are: seed, cattle feed, oil; fibre for textile or cord making purposes; tow for upholstering purposes ; coarse, broken straw for packing and cheap upholstering; chaff for cattle feed; ligneous residues for fertilizer, or, possibly, other purposes.
8.	The production of this crop would seem to be indicated over the vast clay belt in Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec along the line of the Transcontinental railway, where soil and climatic conditions are probably favourable, as well as in western Ontario and over certain parts of southern Quebec.
Since writing the above sentence I have visited northern Ontario and on the line of the Transcontinental at Ground Hog river (Fauquier) I saw a field of excellent flax sown in June and just about ready to pull on September 24.	1
After reviewing what I have seen, the information I have collected and my interviews with different men interested in this industry, I would like to make a few recommendations along two lines.
Recommendations as to lines of effort likely to help the industry at the present juncture:
(a)	The urging aipon producers of the importance of grading their product, and, if possible, the assisting of them along this line. To do this it might be possible to bring over two or three experts from Ireland or from among the Belgian refugees in England.
(b)	The preparation and circulation of a brief pamphlet setting forth the possibilities of the industry and indicating the methods most likely ^to insure, profitable production.
(c)	The undertaking of a series of meetings during the coming winter in those parts of Ontario where the industry is already established. Such meetings should have for object the impressing upon farmers and growers of the necessity for better methods of producing and better seed. An effort should be made also at such meetings to show that flax is not a crop extraordinarily exhaustive of soil fertility.
# That would seem to be rather in conflict with the opinion expressed by the hon. member for South Oxford this afternoon.
The report goes on to make certain recommendations in regard to permanent work. By permanent work is meant the work that should be undertaken by the Government with a view of helping the industry in the near future and of putting it on a stable basis in such parts of Canada as may be found suitable as to soil, water, and climatic
conditions. The recommendations are as follows:
(1)	The establishing of a subdivision for fibre research work as a part of the Experimental Farms Branch.
(2)	The exhaustive trying out of varieties of flax and methods of cultivation on our various experimental farms in Canada and in addition at, say, three or four points in the present flax growing districts of Ontario, and possibly at two or three points in Quebec, where flax is likely to be successful.
(3)	The establishment on the Experimental Farm at Ottawa of a small but complete plant for all the operations in connection with the production of fibre from flax. Building machinery and equipment would cost probaoly $3,000 or $3,500.
(4)	The securing of a practical man such as Robinson, now employed by Fraleigh as a foreman in charge of the work there.
(5)	The employment of a young man with an Agricultural college training and an inclination toward this industry to go into the thing and make a thorough study of the practical side of the business for two or three years by performing all the actual operations, say at Mr. Fraleigh's until he could act as an. expert in judging growing crops of flax for fibre, in harvesting, in retting, in scutching, in sorting and grading, in baling, in hackling and in judging fibre. This man,, when adjudged to have attained a sufficient degree of efficiency, should be placed at the head of the work with fibre, either as a chief officer, or as a sub-officer of the division of botany; probably the former.
(6)	The appointment of a temporary officer in the outside service, attached to the experimental farms, who would take charge of the work outlined under first heading, and who might later develop into a useful man for outside work in this connection.
(7)	The continuation and expansion of the breeding work and selection work with flax now being carried on at the Central Experimental Farm.
That report was received some months ago by the Minister of Agriculture. The minister has been giving his attention to this question, and as a result instructions have been given along this line: First, that a properly trained man be selected to take charge of investigational work at Ottawa in connection with fibre flax production. Difficulty has been found in getting the right man for this positim, because, as is pointed out in this report, not many young men in Canada are experts in the matter of flax production. The department believes that it is on the track of such a man now, and it is hoped that '^n appointment will be made within a short time. Once we get a man who understands the flax business, the rest will follow as a matter of course. In the second place, instructions were given that a series of experiments be carried on in the different provinces, and that a special building be erected in Ottawa tnis season for the work in connection witn flax The

department is considering the question of bringing an experienced letter and scutcher from Ireland,' where the flax industry has assumed a very great degree of perfection. Special investigational work, with a view to approving varieties and methods will be undertaken at Ottawa and at other points where there are experimental farms. It is hoped that a series of meetings can soon be arranged for in the flax areas of Ontario, with a view to encouraging more of our farmers to grow flax for fibre this year.
These are the steps that have been taken. It seems to me that the result of these recommendations depends upon the qualifications, energy and industry of the man selected to take charge of this work in con-, nection with the Experimental Farm and the Department of Agriculture. If the department is fortunate enough to secure a man of ability who will take the matter up with enthusiasm, everything else will follow as a matter of course. The matter will be thoroughly discussed, and after experiments have, been carried on for a short time, I think it will be demonstrated whether it is expedient for the farmers of Ontario and the other provinces to extend their flax acreage and proceed with the manufacture of fibre from flax. The House will see from what I have stated that the Department of Agriculture has not been idle in this matter; it has given it very serious consideration, and has almost I may say, forestalled the resolution which has been moved by the hon. member for East Middlesex.


Samuel Francis Glass: The suggestion of the hon. minister with regard to a proposed change in the resolution is quite satisfactory. When the resolution was framed I had not in contemplation the giving of a bonus or financial aid. I realize that there is a distinction between encouragement without aid and aid without encouragement. The use of the word " encouragement" meets the purpose of the motion, and I have no objection to the amendment.
Motion, amended as proposed, agreed to.



VALCARTIER EXPROPRIATIONS.

Wilfrid Laurier: For a copy of all correspondence up to date respecting expropriations at Valcartier, as well as statement of actions taken, judgments rendered, and claims still unsettled.
He said; Mr. Speaker, this is the third time I have moved for papers in connection with the camp at Valcartier. They have been brought down on each occasion, and
[Mr. Hazen.l
my reason for again referring to this subject is that, of the eighty farmers whose farms were taken, twenty have not yet been paid nor has any action been taken against them. Of course they are not able to bring their claims into the courts; they must await the action of the Government. Everybody will admit that this reflects little credit on the Government; these men should either be paid or brought before the courts so that a judgment may be had on their claims. I ask the Minister of Public Works (Mr.. Rogers) to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of Justice in order that the matter may be expedited; otherwise I shall have to again bring it to the attention of the House.


Mr. ROGERS:: I had occasion^to discuss this matter the other day with the Minister of Militia (Sir Sam Hughes), and he then informed me that many cases that had been taken to the Exchequer Court were being very rapidly disposed of. The statement was then made that every effort was being put forward with a view to having all the cases entirely disposed of. I shall, of course, bring the remarks of my right hon. friend to the attention of the Ministers of Militia and Justice and endeavour to see that the remaining claims of the farmers of Valcartier are dealt with immediately. I know that the Minister of Militia was well satisfied with the progress that was being made a short time ago- [DOT]


Wilfrid Laurier: He is easily
satisfied.


Robert Rogers: -and he was making every effort to have the matter adjusted as soon as possible, in the interests of the people there.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
- At six o'clock the House took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.
CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDING '	BILL.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough) moved the second reading of Bill No. 21, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.
He said: I desire to make some progress with this Bill to amend the Canada Shipping Act which has stood on the Order Paper now for a long time. It is intended to give some relief to the toilers of the sea. The coasting trade of the Maritime Provinces is what I have chiefly in my mind, though, of course, the Bill affects the Pacific as well as the Atlantic coast.

The present law limits a coasting captain to 5 degrees north latitude; that is to say, he is not permitted to clear his vessel for any point further south than 5 degrees north latitude. The distance that the ship is al-_ lowed to go is governed by the kind of certificate that the captain holds. Under the shipping law of Canada there are two classes of certificates. One is called the deep sea certificate, and a man holding the deep sea certificate is at liberty to clear for any port in the world; there is no limit whatever, providing he complies with the law in other respects. A captain holding the coasting certificate however, is, as I have said, restricted at the present time to 5 degrees north latitude, sailing south.-My purpose is to change this, and to allow a captain holding a coasting certificate to go a much greater distance south.
Originally the law relating to coasting captains did not contain the restriction complained of. In the early days in the province of Nova Scotia, and the other Maritime Provinces, coasting captains were permitted to go as far as the owners of the vessels wished them to go, and they frequently took advantage of this liberty to sail as far south as Cape Horn, and even round the Horn. In the days of the gold mining in California, it was a usual thing for a coasting captain to go to California, and some of the more adventurous spirits went as far north as Alaska, to engage in the seal fishing. This continued for half a century or more. Those were the days when shipping flourished in the Maritime Provinces. It used to be the proud boast of Nova Scotians in the sixties-, that there was no country in the world that owned as many tons of shipping to the population as the province of Nova Scotia, not even Great Britain or the United States. That was in the sixties and the seventies, but I am sorry to say that that condition does not exist to-day, and I have no doubt that that fact is partly owing to the restrictions that have been imposed since confederation.
The ships of the Maritime Provinces were sent to all parts of the world in those days, and I have no doubt that the intercourse which the -people had with foreign countries had a good deal to do with the moulding of the Bluenose character as it is known today. The talk around the fireside on the winter evenings was about Shanghai, Nagasaki, Calcutta, Cape Colony, Valparaiso, San Francisco and other places far distant. It had the effect of making the Bluenose a sort of a roamer, for he is a wanderer, and has
been for generations. I think it was Sam Slick who said that wherever . you go throughout the world you can find a Scotsman and a Newcastle grindstone. I think it is also true that nearly everywhere you go you can find a Nova Scotian, for they are scattered pretty much all over the world. In those early days nearly every family had a son or a relative engaged in the deep sea trade, and of course they kept the people at home in touch with the great world outside. The ambition of the ordinary Nova Scotia boy was to grow up to be a sea captain. Among the published works of Joseph Howe there is a poem which is now out of print, and which contains a very interesting description of the coaster. I do not think it will be out of place for me to embalm it in the pages of Hansard. I know that the Deputy Speaker will not object, as I am quite sure a large number of his constituents are interested in the coasting trade in such places as Parrs-boro, Westport, arid other ports along the coast of the county of Cumberland, men who like those from other parts of that province, have distinguished themselves as hardy and adventurous seamen. The following is Howe's description of the coaster:
Though the idle may heed not, the wealthy despise
The race to which I and my fellows belong;
My voice o'er my own native waters shall rise,
And the deck of my shallop resound to my song.
Though my craft may be small, she is snug and she's trim,
And her crew are accustomed to battle the wave,
They are cheerful of heart, and athletic of limb,
And follow the business their bold fathers gave.	.
Through the storm and the sleet of the winter we sail,
While the rich and the feeble on couches repose;
There is health in our toil, and a charm in the gale.
And our courage still rises the harder it blows.	[DOT]
Every harbour from Sable to Canso's a home,
Every depth from the Banks to St. Lawrence we've tried,
And we care not though round Labrador we may roam,
Or sweep on the strength of old Pundy's fierce tide.
Now wealth from the wave we draw forth with our lines,
And now with a cargo of produce we're stow'd.
Or having a full freight of coal from the mines,
We slowly sail on with our cumbersome load.-
[Stage Direction]
Though the Merchantman looks gay, her crew are hut slaves	.
And own not a stick of the vessel they steer.
Though the Frigate glides by, like the Queen of the Waves,
We know that the cat and the bilboes are there.
Then who would exchange the rough life that we lead,
Joint owners at sea, and free sons of the soil,
At the bidding of others to labour and bleed,
With hut little of pleasure to sweeten our toil?
We build our own shallops, we rear our own crew,
And life has for us sweet endearment in store.
For though luxury's fetters our souls never knew,
Bright eyes bid us welcome when peril is o'er.
Thus we Coasters enrich the fair land that we love,
And if danger should threaten, the cutlass we'd seize,	[DOT]
And our hearts and o ur sinews in battle would prove,
That the spirit of freedom is nursed by the breeze.	.
Mr. GRAHAM:: They would make good
men 'for a navy would they not?


Mr. SINCLAIR:: I have no doubt that,
if the Minister of Naval Affairs would send out a call for naval recruits, he would find the young men along the coast of Nova Scotia just what Howe described them to be 50 years ago.
I refer to these historical matters for the purpose of showing what an important place the coaster has in the life and history of the Maritime Provinces. As I have said, the tonnage owned in Nova Scotia was much greater in the days of Howe than it is at the present time; that is a -regrettable fact. There was a ten per cent tariff and free navigation laws and the coaster to go wherever he could find business. The distance that the smaller class of vessel went was restricted by the size of the ship, because it is not profitable for a small vessel to go on a very long voyage as she cannot carry enough freight to make the venture profitable. Those restrictive laws which limit the distance unnecessarily are only hampering trade and doing good to no one. A vessel that can go 1,000 miles can go 2,000 miles, if she can find profitable business. That freedom prevailed up till Confederation, and after Confederation, but I think it was in the time of Captain Spain or Captain Salmon of doubtful memory that the officers of the Marine Department began
fMr. Sinclair.]
tinkering with the shipping law. They passed a regulation, which was ratified by Parliament, that a captain holding a coasting license could not go further south than Cape Hatteras. That shut out the coaster from the West Indies, where his most profitable trade is to be found in the winter season.
Many of our ships that are engaged in the fishing industry during the summer season, when winter comes and fishing on the banks is closed, were accustomed to find profitable trade with the West Indies. They frequently carried down a cargo of lumber or fish and returned with molasses or rum. That was the course of trade for many years. Then this unfortunate restriction was imposed by which they were not allowed to go beyond Cape Hatteras. This shut our vessels out from trade with the West Indies. This continued for several years, until the statute was repealed in 1908 and the line moved down to 5 north latitude, which enabled our coasters to engage in the West Indian trade. But that is not far enough. Our larger ships can find more profitable business in South America. Since the war began, the larger class of coasters in the United States have done a very profitable business along the coast of Brazil and the Argentine Republic. This business has chiefly been done by the vessels of the United States. Their laws are so free from restrictions that a captain of a coasting vessel up to 700 tons needs no certificate at all. The owner of the vessel selects his captain, puts him aboard, and the Customs House asks no questions. That is the law of the United States, and you can readily see what an advantage it gives ;their seamen over ours, who are .subject to these restrictions in competing with the United States for that profitable trade. Shipowners naturally tried to discover some method of evading this regulation. The coasting captain is a resourceful fellow, and he did discover methods of evading the law. One method was by securing the services of a deep-sea captain to clear his vessel. In many ports of the Maritime Provinces can be found some old retired sea-captain who has served his time at sea and holds a deep-sea license. The Customs House cannot refuse to clear a ship when a man holding such a license is in charge. The consequence was that the owner of a ship would temporarily employ one of these retired men for the temporary purpose of clearing the ship. The deep-sea

captain would get his clearance from the customs house for some port further south than the law would allow a coasting captain to"go. The old captain would then sail his ship down the harbour, and at some convenient headland would go ashore and the real captain come aboard and go on with the voyage. The law was evaded in that way for several years, but it was found very inconvenient, for these old captains were not always on tap, and I have heard of one case where the captain thus temporarily put in charge refused to give up the ship after he had cleared from port. So they had to find some other method, and the next one adopted was to change the registry of the ship. That has been frequently resorted to. The result to-day is that about sixty or more of the largest coasting vessels in the Maritime Provinces are registered in Barbados; a few are registered in Newfoundland or some other colony.
There is no difficulty about changing the registry of a ship; it is just as easy as rolling off a log. The Government provides the necessary machinery, and that is what makes the whole proceeding look so extremely foolish. All that an owner has to do when he wants to evade this regulation is to go into one of the offices of the Canadian customs and ask for a blank form, which is provided freely by the Government. He then fills it out, signs his name, and his ship is transferred to Barbados or wherever elese he wants it registered. He pays the trifling sum of three or four dollars to the customs officer, walks out of the office, pulls down the Canadian flag, and goes on with his business. That is what has been going on for many years, until now a great number of the vessels that were under Canadian registry have been transferred to the -registry of some other colony, or to that of the United States. And a great many more ships would have been transferred to United States registry during the past two years if it had not been for the Order in Council which prevents ships from being transferred to any foreign registry during the war. Everybody knows that until about two years ago the American registry was closed to foreign vessels. If a citizen of the United States wanted to own a ship he had to build it in the country. Then, in the early summer of 1914, a law was passed in the United States allowing an American citizen to purchase a ship and place her under the American registry without paying any duty, and subject to
no special restriction. Between that date and the outbreak of war no less than fourteen vessels had been transferred from Canadian registry to United States registry, and had it not been for the Order in Council passed by this Government many more Canadian vessels would have been transferred to the American flag. As I have already said, some of our vessels are even now under the American flag, and many others are registered in some distant colony. The reason why they register in other colonies is because the ships of these colonies are under British law and are not subject to the restrictions that exist in Canada. A vessel registered in Barbados, for example, is permitted to sail to South America, and to carry on business where business is profitable. This is the definition of a coasting voyage as it stood in the revised statutes prior to 1908:
Coasting voyage means a voyage between any port or place on the Eastern coast of Canada and any other port or place on such coast or in Newfoundland, Labrador, St. Pierre, or Miquelon, or on the Eastern coast of United States, not farther south than Cape Hatteras; and on the West coast not farther south than the harbour of Portland, in the State of Oregon.
That was repealed in 1908 and the line moved down from Cape Hatteras to 5 north latitude. I propose now to repeal the present section and to substitute therefor the following:
" Coasting voyage " means a voyage between any port or place on the eastern coast of Canada, and any other port or place on such coast, or in Newfoundland, Labrador, or St. Pierre or Miquelon, or any port or place on the eastern coast of the United States of America or Mexico or Central America or in the West Indies, or on the eastern coast of South America not further south than forty degrees south latitude; and also means a voyage between any port or place on the western coast of Canada, and any other part or place on such coast, or on the western coast of the territory of Alaska, or of the United States of America or of the western coast of Mexico or Central America or South America not further south than forty degrees south latitude.
If this Bill becomes law the Canadian coaster will be permitted to compete for business in the ports of South America. I see no reason why he should not go round the Horn. The American coaster is at present free to engage in South American business. What I *am asking for is that a captain holding a coasting License be allowed to trade with South America, and go through the Panama canal, and be free to do business in the ports of the Pacific coast.

Mr. Speaker, you will agree with me that capital is very sensitive, especially capital engaged in shipping. The man who owns a ship is in a much more independent position than the man who owns a railway, or a telegraph line, or any similar enterprise on land. It is the easiest thing in the world for a shipowner to seek new fields, and if need be to change the registry of his ship. If the Canadian trade is not profitable, he can leave Canada, and engage in trade in Europe, in the Argentine Republic, in the West Indies, in India, wherever there is profitable business. He has the seven seas to go to, and, consequently, when this Parliament imposes upon him a foolish restriction which hampers his business, he simply pulls up his stakes and goes where laws are reasonable and business is profitable. That shows how important it is for Parliament to be careful in regard to such restrictions. In the United States, for example, not more than a year or so ago, some labour organizations raised an agitation that Japanese and Chinese should not be employed in vesels plying out of the ports on the Pacific coast of the United States. Congress capitulated to this agitation and the consequence was that they passed a law prohibiting foreigners from being employed as sailors on American ships. At that time California was the headquarters of a large shipping firm which had a fleet of ships trading in the Pacific and calling at Honolulu, and proceeding to far eastern ports. This firm was compelled to retire from that business and use their vessels elsewhere, because they could not comply with the law. They could not get American sailors to man their ships, and now the only communication which the people of the United States have with far eastern ports is by Japanese vessels, and there is now no regular liner flying the American flag sailing out of any of the Pacific coast ports of the United States. That is humiliating to the United States, and has happened because of that simple regulation that I have referred to in regard to the employment of sailors, so that restrictions of this nature which may appear simple enough to landsmen and people who do not understand shipping matters, frequently turn out to be very serious when applied to shipping interests where capital is sensitive and where it is open for a shipowner to escape from the scope of such regulations.
Now, there are still a good many coast-

ing vessels on the Canadian register, and we want to keep them there; but if we are to do so, we must act promptly in order to prevent more of them from leaving. Two years ago I introduced a Bill intended to rectify this difficulty by repealing this clause and allowing the coasting captains to sail further south. At that time the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), who I am sorry is not in his seat, postponed any action in the matter, stating that he intended to revise the shipping laws of Canada, and that then this matter would receive his attention. So far as I know nothing has been done, and the consequence is that since that date two things have happened: a large additional number of ships have withdrawn from the Canadian register, and those which have remained under the Canadian flag have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars for their owners, who are penalized by the loss of profitable business which they cannot engage im because they are not allowed to sail to southern ports. The question is often asked, why is such a regulation as this in our Statutes? I confess that I am not able to answer the question, and I do not believe my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is able to explain it. The question has been asked over and over again in this House, and no one has ever been able to answer it. The restriction apparently was made owing to the whim of some one in the office of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and it is difficult to understand why it has been allowed to remain in the Canada Shipping Act for so many years, seeing that it has done so much damage to the shipping business of this country. If it was a question of safety, I would not complain. If safety was the object one would have supposed that restrictions would have been imposed upon captains sailing to northern latitudes in the winter season; but there is no restriction so far as going north is concerned, the only restriction is against going south amid the laughing waves and eternal sunshine of the topics. The Minister of Customs never hesitates to allow a captain to clear his ship in the dead if winter for the stormy shores of .Newfoundland, for Labrador, for Baffin bay, for that new country where Stefannson planted the Canadian flag last year. You can go as far north as the North Pole if you wish; the Minister of Marine and Fisheries offers no objection to a northern voyage, but as soon as you turn the prow of your ship south, he says, "No, you must not go there,

because it is past 5 degrees north latitude," but he gives no other or better reason, and no man in this House or outside of it has ever been able to give any better reason why that should be the case. The restriction, however, has stood on the statute books of Canada for a good many years, and it reflects on the intelligence of the Canadian parliament that it should remain there.
The size of the coasting vessel does not justify the restriction because some of these vessels are large enough to sail anywhere; they can go across the ocean just as easily as along the coast; they are quite capable of sailing any sea and weathering any storm. They do not usually cross the ocean because it is more profitable for them not to do so. Many of them are too small for long voyages. At the same time the average of these ships is larger than the ship in which Columbus crossed the ocean on his eventful voyage. If my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries had been in power in the days of Ferdinand and Isabella, Columbus would never have been allowed to sail outside the straits of Gibraltar; he certainly would not have been allowed to cross the Atlantic. If I remember rightly, the Pinta was only 90 feet long and 25 feet wide, whereas many of these coasting vessels are of much larger dimensions and tonnage.
If there is a reason for maintaining this restriction in the statutes, I would like the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to give it to us. If there is no reason, I would suggest that he allow my Bill to become law. Time after time we engage An discussions in this House as to the necessity of more tonnage; my hon. friends from the West have made many appeals on that question; but it is an extraordinary thing that, while they are-demanding more tonnage to carry our ever increasing trade, the Customs Department and the Department of Marine and Fisheries are driving our tonnage away from the Canadian flag to the ends of the earth because they will not give shipowners an opportunity to carry on their business free from needless restrictions. If this country is ever to become a great commercial country we -must encourage our people to build and own ships to carry our products to the markets of the world. That is why I consider this	matter	importantand why	I have been	persistent
for the last four years or more in bringing it almost yearly to the attention of Parliament. I do not see why it should take four years to secure a reform of this kind. However, following the example of the Scotch spider I do not think that the resources of
civilization are yet exhausted, .and I intend to keep on until I get a hearing from this House. Now, as I said before, if there is any intelligent reason why this restriction should remain, it should be given to us. If not, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should let my Bill have its second reading, so that the principle may be adopted. It is the easiest thing in the world for a minister to prevent a private member like myself from ever securing any legislation. I have waited for a month now in order to get a chance to move the second reading of this Bill, and by a mere accident I have had my opportunity to-night. ' The whole session, however, might have passed away without my getting even this chance. I have seen such things happen, and besides there are a hundred ways in which the Government can hamper the passing of this measure. The only way to ensure its enactment is to make it a Government measures I desire to throw the responsibility on the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, as he is the one who is alone responsible. My proposal is that he accept this Bill as a Government measure, and place it on the Statute books of Canada and relieve once for all our coastwise shipping of this unjustifiable and useless restriction.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member (Mr. Sinclair) has referred to me, in my capacity as Minister of Customs, as being really the one who. understands the Shipping Act in connection with this Bill.. Of course, the hon. gentleman knows that the Marine and Fisheries Department is the department that has to do with the making of the shipping laws. The Customs Department only administers the law after it has been passed by Parliament. I would not like to have this Bill passed without my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) being present. I understood that it had been arranged that we should _ go on with the Estimates of the Department of the Interior to-night, and that is why the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, who had some other appointment, is' not here. I would therefore ask the hon.
- member to allow the Bill to stand in committee until the minister is here.


George Perry Graham: The suggestion of the hon. Minister of Customs seems to be quite reasonable. This, being a public Bill, unless the minister will say that there will
\

be an opportunity of discussing it on some future occasion, it would go to the bottom of the list, and there would be no opportunity of further dealing with it.


John Dowsley Reid: There will be no trouble about that; I will see that there is an opportunity of discussing it.


George Perry Graham: Then I think it is fair to accept the minister's suggestion, and ask that the committee rise and report progress.
Progress reported.



TRANSPORTATION OF GRAIN.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid (for the Minister of Railways), Bill No. 4, to amend the Railway Act, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon.
Mr. OLIVER:: Would the minister, in a few words, give the committee; for the purposes of record, the object and scope of the Bill?


John Dowsley Reid: The Chairman of the Railway Commission, Sir Henry Drayton, had been taking up with my hon. friend the Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane), a. few days prior to Mr. Cochrane's departure from Ottawa, the question of trying to relieve the situation in the West in so far as the movement of grain is concerned. When I took charge of the department, I found a ldtter from Sir Henry Drayton to the minister. In this letter Sir Henry Drayton explains the situation in connection with the movement of grain in the West, and suggests the passage of a Bill similar to that which I have placed before the House. I believe the best way to explain this Bill to the committee is to read the letter which was sent by Sir Henry to the Minister of Railways. It is so complete, and, I believe, so interesting, that I think it should be placed on record. It reads:
Ottawa, February ISth, 1916.
Re Grain Crop.
Dear Mr. Cochrane;
The Railways have been faced with an exceedingly difficult problem in the transportation of the very large grain crop of the North West.
I make no complaint whatever as to the manner in which the railways have moved the crop during the past season. On the other hand, the movement was extremely good, surpassing all records. It is sufficient to say that from September 1st, 1915, to January 15th, 1916, the railways had transported no less than 53,920 cars of grain more than were hauled in marketing the large crop of 1913, and extending over the whole period required to market it.
I fully realize the importance of the service to the public and the fact that the result could not have been obtained had not the railways been efficient and properly operated. While this is all true, however, the present condition is unsatisfactory and calls for some special remedy.
The Department of Trade and Commerce places the crop (all grains) in the Western Provinces at 723,664,000 bushels, as against 322,056,000 bushels for 1914, and 503,267,000 bushels for 1913. At a low estimate, 300,000000 bushels remain to be carried; and unfortunately a comparatively large percentage of this total, as to which only an approximation can be made, is without proper protection.
The tremendous crop of this year is such that the elevator capacity of the country cannot commence to contain the balance of the crop, even in view of the fact that no less than 191,323 cars have already been transported up to the 15th of January last.
Temporary granaries have at different points been erected, hut over and above the grain in elevators and in temporary granaries, there is a large amount of grain which has been left out all winter, either in stook or already threshed and covered with straw. This grain, while subject to danger of some deterioration, will largely be saved, provided it is moved before the spring rains set in.
The grain on the Grand Trunk Pacific has been largely marketed; and the Board has now no serious complaint of congestion on its lines. This, of itself, does not show any more efficient management on that system, as the crop tributary to this line is much smaller than the volume tributary to the Canadian Pacific and Canadian Northern Railways.
The Grand Trunk Pacific has moved approximately 15 per cent of the present crop, and they will be in a position in the near future to handle grain to a considerable extent that may be offered for transport.
The Grain Commission reports congestion on the following Canadian Pacific Railway Lines: Outlook Branch, north of Moose Jaw; -Empress Branch; Vanguard Branch; South of Lethbridge. There is also complaint as to congestion on the Weyburn-Shaunavon Branch.
The' Grand Trunk Pacific has moved approxi-tion on the Canadian Northern Railway on the following lines: In the Goose Lake District; Moose Jaw-Gravelburg Branch; Saskatoon to Regina. And also state that outside of Manitoba every Canadian Northern point has grain which should be moved.
Again, in so far as delays in the movement which have occurred since the close of navigation are concerned, no complaint is made as against the railways. These delays were largely inevitable. Firstly, owing to the fact that, generally speaking, there was but comparatively little available storage in the East; secondly, that, owing to the war and the commandeering of boats, the supply of bottoms was limited; thirdly, because of the embargoes obtaining largely, and frequently absolutely, at all grain shipping sea ports; and fourthly, congestion of traffic, which was even more marked in the large American terminals than in our own winter ports. In addition to all this, weather conditions and the necessities of the coal movement would, in any event, have prevented any free or general movement of grain traffic.
The situation, however, as I see it, demands

that the ordinary traffic conditions must be departed from, in order to save a large portion of the crop, and the ordinary rules of traffic should be at least temporarily disregarded. The railways should co-operate closely with each other and move the crop as soon as possible, irrespective of the fact that traffic returns of the originating road may be diminished.
The crop on the Canadian Northern Lines has been very large. Notwithstanding the fact that that Company carried a large percentage of the grain already transported, perhaps 35 per cent, an estimate made by the Company of grain still to be marketed on its lines in the prairies amounted to 53,232,480 bushels, and in elevators adjacent to its system 36,000,000 bushels, making a total of S9,232,480 bushels to be hauled.
The Company has since reported that the total grain still in the farmers' hands and unmarketed amounts, according to its estimate on the 15th instant, to 32,844,000 bushe'.s of wheat, and 15,402,000 bushels of other grain; so that the total grain still in the farmers' hands is reduced from 53,232,480 bushels to 48,246,000 bushels. The result is that the Canadian Northern has on or tributary to its system in the Prairie Provinces 84,246,000 bushels of last year's crop yet to be transported.
The congestion which the Grain Commission complain of as the worst in the country is on the Saskatoon-Drumheller, and De Lisle-Elrose lines, running through what is known as the Goose Lake District.
I should also say that a deputation from this district waited upon the Honourable Dr. Reid, when acting as Minister, and was referred by him to me, with the request that I would see that everything possible should be done to relieve the conditions there obtaining.
The Company advises that in this district and adjacent to its lines, there are 11,732,000 bushels of wheat and 1,945,000 bushels of other grain yet to be marketed, or a total of 13,677,000 bushels.
I take the situation here as illustrating the need of relief, again making no complaint against the Canadian Northern, but merely to illustrate the demands of the district and the necessities of the farmers, which are the more serious, in view of the fact that, generally speaking, there was a crop failure in this district last year.
These thirteen million odd bushe-s represent wheat which has not yet been carried to the elevator, much of which will be subject to damage, unless the grain is moved, as already stated, before the spring rains.
The figures as to grain storage in the district show 7,063,900 bushels, making a total of 20,740,900 bushels of grain to be handled in this district alone.
The matter has, of course, been carefully canvased by the Board with the Company, and the best service Mr. Spencer, the Board's Chief Operating Officer, was able to get the Company to say would or could be given to the district was 150 cars a day. In view of the conditions of operation on the line and the failure of the water supply, which has resulted to a large degree at least from excessive winter conditions, it is extremely doubtful whether the Company could possibly move this number of loads; but, assuming that the Company could load them and should commence this movement
on the 1st of March next, which is probably the best that could be hoped for, owing to the fact that the line has only recently been opened after the winter storms, and that water conditions are still bad, it would take, if the movement was maintained, until the 15th of next July to market the crop ; or, on the other hand, if the amount of grain in storage is deducted from the calculation and only the 13,677,000 bushels yet on the farmers' hands considered, the amount could only be moved by June 1st. This, of course, would be altogether too late to save unprotected grain.
The usual rule is that a company should be entitled to the traffic of its own lines, and to the business of that part of the country which it has opened up by its enterprise and the expenditure of its capital. This rule may be said to be of general application, applying, not only in Canada but also in the United States and in Great Britain. It is fair; but only fair, as it occurs to me, when the company can handle that traffic within a reasonable time. This rule gives the Canadian Northern the benefit of the long haul from the Goose Lake District to the Lake Elevators.
I am very free to admit that it would be foolish to expect the railways to move the whole crop in any given year before the close of navigation; and that, if it was so moved, it would probably be the worst thing that could happen for the farmers themselves, destroying to a large extent the value of their product by the consequent depression of the market price. On the other hand, any condition of transportation which results in the western farmer being unable to market his crop until the following June or July, is just as unreasonaoie.
The condition of the farmers in the Goose Lake district for example, to-day is that in so far as the 13,677,000 bushels of grain already referred to are concerned, they cannot market it, and owing to lack of storage facilities, for which of course the railway is not at all to blame, they will be unable to save a large percentage of it under the present transportation conditions.
It should be possible to increase the movement on this line by proper co-operation between the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Companies. The Railway Act does not enable the board to order this to be done; and I recommend that the Act be amended on the lines of the amendment now enclosed.
It is extremely doubtful that if the traffic moves under ordinary conditions the Canadian Northern will be able to look after more than 100 cars a day. It would appear, however, that if the maximum number of cars and engines were supplied and placed in service on the branch, and instead of being run through to eastern points, made delivery in the Saskatoon elevator, where weights and inspection can be obtained, and were then taken on by the Grand Trunk Pacific, the movement could be very greatly accelerated.
The grain should move at the present through rates, without additional expense to the farmer. The ordinary rate per mile which the rate from Saskatoon would make should be reduced and the through rate should be apportioned so that a greater mileage return should be given to the Canadian Northern, in order to make its-shorter movement profitable. As the resultant business to the Grand Trunk Pacific would be largely found business, as it has idle engines and equipment, some reduction in the regular

rate would be fair to that company. Apart, however, from any railway concerned, but treating the matter merely in the public interest this action or some similar action is necessary.
It well may be that, as the movement develops, similar joint traffic arrangements will be found necessary at other points, both on the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern lines.
It is but fair to say that what I propose is an extension, and perhaps a radical one, of the joint traffic requirements companies are now subject to, owing to the fact that a single line route, reasonable and direct, has been already provided, and also that the movement, although * by joint operation and subject to the additional handling charges entailed thereby, will nevertheless move at the ordinary rate in so far as the shipper is concerned. The fact that the single direct route is congested and unable to move the traffic, coupled with the exigencies of the situation, affords, however, as it occurs to me, an ample justification for the proposed action.
As to the urgency of the situation, there does not seem to be much room for argument; and, if in your view, that situation can be remedied on the lines proposed, might I suggest that the Bill be immediately introduced and its passage facilitated?
Yours faithfully,
H. L. Drayton.
The Honourable
The Minister of Railways and Canals, Ottawa, Ont.
I thought it better to read that letter, as it is very full and very interesting. I do not think any further explanation is
9 p.m. necessary. Sir Henry Drayton has asked me to submit the Bill to the House and ask the House to facilitate its passage. So I should like it to receive its third reading to-night in order that it may go to the Senate for action to-morrow.


William Ashbury Buchanan: How many cars are
being moved out on the Goose Lake line each day since the weather moderated.


John Dowsley Reid: I do, not know. I discussed the matter with Sir Henry Drayton a few day ago and the line was then in very bad shape, they were only getting it opened. I have here some photographs showing the conditions on that line which might interest my hon. friend.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I happened to be a
member of a deputation from residents on parts of the Goose Lake line in Alberta, which waited on Sir Henry Drayton on this particular matter. I am inclined to think that the proposal will be of assistance in getting the grain out of that country. At the time the deputation waited on the Chairman of the Railway Commission, in the Acadia andHandhills legislative districts of Alberta, it was estimated that the crop was fourteen million bushels and that two

million bushels had been moved out. As has been stated by the minister, a great deal of grain was stored in the fields and some of it was in temporary storage elevators in some of the towns; the elevators were all full, the side tracks were all filled with cars loaded with grain, and it was practically impossible to get that grain out of the country. Something has to be done. I would point out that the storage elevator at Calgary is very close to this particular district. It is true that to send the grain there would involve -a back haul, but I understand that there is not a quarter of a million bushels of wheat in that elevator to-day, nor has there been at any time since it was opened last fall. It has a capacity of about two and a half million bushels, and it would he of great assistance if the grain could be stored there. Otherwise the grain will have to shipped east, and Saskatoon is one storage point and Moosejaw the other. Moosejaw cannot be reached by the Canadian Northern or any other line tributary to it, because once the grain goes east to Saskatoon it is past Moosejaw. Some effort might be made to carry the grain from the Goose Lake country to Calgary and place it there until the facilities at the head of the lakes are better than they are at present. The farmers in that district are suffering. They have their grain stored in temporary shelters, and if the spring opens inauspiciously they may lose two or three grades on grain stored in that way. Some exceptional effort will have to be made to get the grain out of the country.


Frank Oliver: The proposed arrangement involves storage of grain in either local elevators or the storage elevators. Does the shipper have to pay the elevator charges or do the railway companies absorb them?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not discussed that
point with Sir Henry Drayton. TKe intention of this Bill is to compel the Canadian Northern railway to put on a very large equipment on the lines in the Goose Lake district, say from Drumheller to Moosejaw, and keep cars rushing backwards and forwards between Saskatoon and that railway. The Grand Trunk Pacific will be ordered to take that grain from Saskatoon through to the upper lakes. If it was all left to be carried through by the Canadian Northern railway the movement would be very slow, and perhaps the line would be unable to do the work.


Frank Oliver: But who pays the storage; the railway company or the shipper?


John Dowsley Reid: I understood from Sir Henry Drayton that, whatever the rate was from any point on the Drumheller section or any other point on the Canadian Northern railway from a point east of Drumheller on to Fort William, the farmer would pay the same rate even if the grain went through this elevator and right through to Fort William. That was the impression Sir Henry gave me, and I suppose the railways would have to absorb any charges in be-, tween. That was the impression the chairman of the' commission gave me when we discussed the matter.


George Perry Graham: I suppose that this Bill
was suggested by the Chairman of the Railway Commission.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, he wrote the Bill.


George Perry Graham: The word "board" undoubtedly means the Board of Railway Commissioners; it means their interpretation of the clauses of the Railway Act. This Bill enlarges the powers of the board.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: It enlarges the powers
of the board to deal with special cases in which where one railway company is not able to handle the congested traffic, other railways can be asked to assist in the relief *of that congestion; and the board is given the power to distribute the rates among the different railways.
Mr. REID Yes.


George Perry Graham: It may be asked whether this could not have been done without an Act of Parliament, but I do not think it *could, for the reason that the regular railway tariff as to mileage and hauls will be disturbed by this arrangement; that is to say, the rate on the short haul usually allowed will not be allowed under this arrangement, and the rate on the long haul may be changed to comply with the special conditions. Undoubtedly, the railway companies themselves could not get together and make a joint rate under those conditions, because the proposed arrangement disturbs their haul arrangement. This gives the board a power which it did not possess before, to step in and arrange the rates under these peculiar conditions. Neither the Chairman of the Railway Commission, nor any member of the board could do it without this Act.


John Dowsley Reid: That is it exactly.


George Perry Graham: I think that the letter to the Minister of Railways from the chairman of the board, who has studied the case closely, makes it desirable that we should facilitate this Bill so that it may go through the House and to the Upper Chamber and become law as soon as possible, because every day lost in the movement of the grain makes it much more serious for the farmer.


William Ashbury Buchanan: Was some arrangement not made by the Grain Commission as to a reduction in the storage rates for the grain? If grain was shipped say from the Goose Lake district and stored at Saskatoon, was it not arranged that a reduction should be made in the rate, if the grain could not be carried through to the head of the lakes? I saw an announcement to that effect in a western paper.
Mr, REID: The Grain Commission and Sir Henry Drayton dealt with this matter jointly, that is, as to the best way of removing the grain from the congested districts to Fort William. Sir Henry Drayton told me that the rate which the farmer would have to pay on his grain from any station in any congested district to Fort William would be the same, even if it had to be carried by two railways.


William Ashbury Buchanan: That is the rate on the railways?


John Dowsley Reid: My hon. friend stated that he had noticed some item in a newspaper that the Grain Commission were making a reduction in the rates. I take it for granted that under this arrangement, made by the chairman of the Railway Commission and by the Grain Commission, there will be no increase in the rate from one point to the other.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
, Government of the Yukon Territory, $353,000.
George Perry Graham: Has it ever struck the minister that the expenses of the management of the Yukon Territory could be materially reduced?


William Roche: That was very thoroughly discussed the other night.


George Perry Graham: I did not have an opportunity of discussing it. The reason I ask is that I received a communication on this very point to-day from a gentleman "who is not located in the Yukon, but who is evidently interested in it. It contained a lot of items, but I am not going to read them to the House. The point that struck me as being well worthy of consideration was his suggestion that several offices might be combined, one official doing the work of two or three. For instance, when one of the officials is out of the territory, as these officials often are, his duties are performed by some other official in the territory, and if the other official can perform those duties for four, or five, or six months, could some reduction not be made in the expenditure by doubling up on the work done, without, of course, overworking the officials? I am not given to criticising the work done by officials. When the population in the Yukon Territory was large it was proper that every dollar necessary should be expended in that part of the country, but at the present time the population is not nearly so large as it was, to put it mildly, and the gentleman I refer to is very strongly of the view that the expenses of the management of the Yukon Territory could be cut in two without overworking any official, or underpaying him. I did not hear the minister's view on that point.


William Roche: I allowed the member for the Yukon (Mr. Thompson), who is much better acquainted with the local conditions than I am, to give an explanation the other night, and I will ask him again to explain. I understand that while the population of the Yukon has been materially reduced, the salaries have been materially reduced, and also the number of officials. We are not paying anything like the amount for salaries that we paid some years ago. I do not know that we can affect any great reduction in salaries by combining officials.
- I have not blade any particular inquiry into that, but I have inquired as to the duties performed by the present officials and compared them with those performed during the past four or five years, and while the revenue has decreased somewhat I do not know that any great reduction could he effected by any reduction of the officers. I would like to hear what the hon. member for the Yukon has to say on this. He is probably more conversant with the details of work in the Yukon than I am. If there are any directions in which we can eoono-

mise I am sure I shall be only too pleased to listen to suggestions.


George Perry Graham: He is not strong for
economy.


Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON:: 
George Perry Graham: And not tax him too heavily after he gets there.


Alfred Thompson: We have tried to make taxes as reasonable as possible. First of all, we try to give the miner security of title. When my hon. friend from Edmonton was Minister of the Interior, he put through this House a Bill which incorporated the regulations of that day into the Yukon Placer Mining Act, and from that time to the present every one in the Yukon has
been satisfied as to the question of title to property. Millions of dollars have been invested in the mining industry in the Yukon because of the law passed by the hon. member for Edmonton when he was Minister of the Interior. When a miner goes out into the wilderness we want him to feel that the Government is behind him, so far as title is concerned. These men then go out Into the hills and valleys, and sometimes find it difficult to get more than what they call their grubstake. 'In some cases the Government, feeling that it is in the interests not only of the Yukon but of Canada as a whole, has paid the way of these prospectors. If a group wanted to go to an outlying district, the Yukon Government would appropriate a few dollars to carry these men to that distant point. Then as regards mail service, we have had to subsidize some boats running on the tributaries to the Yukon, and it must be remembered that some of these tributaries are navigable for from 250 to 300 miles from their juetion with the Yukon. The territory up there is vast, but I am sorry to say the population is sparse. We have not the population we had years ago, but it is a vigorous, a hardy and adventurous population, a population specifically and peculiarly fitted for a great territory like that. I venture to say that there is not an army in Europe to-day, and that Napoleon never led an army, that was better, physically and morally, than the army that crossed the White Pass and developed the gold' mines of the Klondike in 1896. Many of those men and many of their children are still there. They have erected schools, and for the information of the House I might say that in the public school of Dawson we give the first year's course in the University of Toronto. We do not call it a High school or a Normal school, but the students can matriculate from it to McGill and Varsity. We could not do that without money; we could not do it unless the Federal treasury was behind us. The suggestion was made the other night that the Yukon should unite with British Columbia and I did not have an opportunity then to express my disapproval. I do so now in the name of the people of the Yukon, because our people have a destiny of their own. The Yukon territory, which comprises an area of 200,000 square miles, has produced in sixteen or seventeen years nearly $200,000,000 worth of gold, and its resources are so far barely scratched. The part that is developed is in the same

proportion to the whole territory as a postage stamp is to a post card, and we have huge areas that have never been trod under the foot of the white man. Why should we wish to be tacked on to British Columbia, particularly as we receive assistance from the Federal Government?


George Perry Graham: That shows our humanity.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: What 'officials are there in the Yukon who are paid out of the Dominion Treasury? I refer to the principal officials and their duties.


Alfred Thompson: That is a fairly large order.


William Pugsley: Is there a public administrator there?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, Mr. John Black.


William Pugsley: Is there a judge of probates there?


Alfred Thompson: We have one judge in the Yukon, Judge Macaulay, formerly of Belleville.


William Pugsley: Only one?


Alfred Thompson: Yes.


William Pugsley: Who acts as judge during his absence?


Alfred Thompson: A year ago Judge Macaulay, who had been in the territory for some years, asked the Minister of Justice for furlough, which was granted, and accordingly Judge Macaulay took his vacation. Mr. John Black was public administrator and, in the absence of Judge Macaulay, it was necessary for some one to act as interim judge. Mr. Black's name was submitted for the position, and he was nominated and filled the position of interim judge with great credit to himself.


William Pugsley: Did he as judge have to do with appeals from the action or conduct of the public administrator?


Alfred Thompson: I do not think so.


William Pugsley: I am told that he did.


Alfred Thompson: My hon. friend
should verify that before asking his question; I know he wants to be fair.


William Pugsley: Yes. Is it not true that an appeeal from the action of the public administrator necessarily goes to the judge, and, therefore, during the absence of Mr. Macaulay, did not Mr. Justice Black, who

was a temporary justice, exercise jurisdiction over his own conduct as public administrator?


Alfred Thompson: If he did, this is the first news that I have had of it, and, knowing Mr. Black as I do, I do not believe that he would act in that capacity. I can hardly imagine a man acting as a judge to pass on his own judgments.


William Pugsley: I was informed that
conditions were in a very unsatisfactory state at that time by reason of Mr. Black's occupying three different positions, being public administrator, judge of the court, and I think, judge of the appellate court also.


Alfred Thompson: No.


William Pugsley: Who was judge of the
appellate court?


Alfred Thompson: We have no appellate court in the Yukon now. We used to have an appellate caurt, that is, we had a court en banc, composed of the three judges who were in the Yukon at that time; but as time went on, two of the judges were eventually retired leaving just one judge,- and, of course, there cquld not then be any appellate court. There is an appeal from the Gold Commissioner to the sitting judge, but the appeal from the judge is to the Supreme Court of British Columbia. I am subject to correction on that, but I thing such is the case. At one time the appeal from the court en banc was to the Supreme Court at Ottawa, but I think now it is to the Supreme Court of British Columbia. My hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) is advocating that we merge certain offices, and this is an illustration of the criticism to which the Government is open .when such a thing is done, although it was done for the purpose of economy.


William Pugsley: You do not suggest that the office of public administrator should be merged with the position of judge?


Alfred Thompson: Not as a permanent
thing but as an expedient. Of course, we could easily have paid some one else to do the work, but we were anticipating the criticism made by my hon. friend. I quite agree with my hon. friend that a man cannot sit in appeal on his own judgments.


William Pugsley: During that period there was no other court to which he could go unless he went to himself.

" Mr. THOMPSON: I do not know whether I am clear as to what the hon. gentleman means.
Mr. PU/GSLEY:	The criticism made to
me was (hat Mr. John Black was public administrator, and that the Government appointed the same gentleman as judge of the court. All appeals from the actions or decisions of the public administrator must go to the judge. During that period he was both public administrator and judge. The people of the Yukon had no appeal from his decisions except to himself.


Alfred Thompson: Would my hon. friend say whether he was informed if there was a case in which an appeal was asked for, or might have been taken, or a case referred from this gentleman acting in one capacity to this gentleman acting in another?


William Pugsley: I was told that people
were debarred from an appeal which otherwise they would have had the right to make.


Alfred Thompson: That just shows how unfair some people are and how statements become at direct variance with the facts after travelling from the Yukon here. I know that my hon. friend has used the information as he has received it.


William Pugsley: Exactly as I received it.


Alfred Thompson: Exactly, I am sure.
But I do not know of any case where the public administrator was called upon to sit in judgment upon his own decision. It is so ridiculous that I cannfft think of it seriously. Possibly it might have occurred but certainly it never occurred in the Yukon to my knowledge. I do not believe that Air. Black would ever think of doing that.


William Pugsley: Does not my hon. friend realize that when this Government appointed the public administrator to be judge of the court, which is the only court of appeal from the action of the public administrator, they did an improper thing because they were thereby debarring people from the opportunity of making an appeal except appealing simply from Caesar unto Caesar?


Alfred Thompson: That is a different
thing. My hon. friend now says they were debarred from making an appeal. I understood him, when he was speaking before, to say that people wanted to appeal and could not appeal.


William Pugsley: It debars them.


Air. THOAIPSON:: That is in the abstract, but I submit that there is no specific case.


William Pugsley: Perhaps not, but my information is that there has been such a case.


Air. THOMPSON:: I accept my hon.
friend's statement, but I do not think there was a case of that kind. But, even so, it was only an interim appointment; Judge Macaulay was only out of the territory for five or six months and at the expiration of that dime he returned and took his place on the bench, while Air. Black, who had been acting as interim judge, stepped down and resumed his duties.


William Pugsley: He did not give up his duties in the lower court while performing his duties in the higher court?


Alfred Thompson: In what capacity?


William Pugsley: As administrator.


Frederick Pemberton Thompson: That is not a court.


William Pugsley: Yes it is.


Alfred Thompson: No, it was never so considered in the Yukon. I am sure that at one time the public administrator was not a lawyer at all.


William Pugsley: To what court could any person who wanted to appeal from the public administrator apply for redress unless to the court over which the public administrator presided?
Mr.'THOMPSON: I have no doubt that the procedure indicated by the hon. gentleman would be quite correct, and that an appeal would lie from the public administrator to the judge of the Territorial court.


William Pugsley: While the public administrator was acting as judge of the court any appeal from his conduct as public administrator would necessarily have to be taken to himself as judge of the court.


Frederick Pemberton Thompson: I admit that if there were appeals that would probably be the procedure, but I have never heard of a case being taken from the public administrator in the Yukon {o the judge of the Territorial court. However, if there were such a case what would be the result? The man who . had, this fantastic grievance, if he had a grievance, would simply have to wait until Judge Macaulay returned. While we all understand the procedure in the court, what would my hon. friend think of this? He speaks of an appeal from a judge to the same judge. Judge Macaulay for years had been acting in the Yukon Territory as Police Court Magistrate, again meeting the argument advanced by the hon. member



for South Renfrew, and this was done while he was- a minister of the Crown and for the purpose of effecting economy. While Mr. Macaulay was sitting as Supreme Court judge he was also acting as Police Magistrate. The culprit was apprehended by the Northwest Mounted Police, brought before Judge Macaulay, sitting as Police Magistrate, he had his preliminary trial before Judge Macaulay as Police Magistrate, he was committed for trial by Judge Macaulay as Police Magistrate, and then was tried by Judge Macaulay as judge of the Supreme Court.


William Pugsley: Does not my hon. friend see -the distinction between that and the case of a man who is handling the estate of widows and orphans, and from whose conduct as public administrator during that period, no appeal could be taken except to himself?- It must also be remembered that the public administrator is in receipt of fees and commissions. From what this party told me it seems to be quite reprehensible that the Government should appoint a gentleman occupying a position of responsibility and trust in connection with estates to a position which would take away any right of appeal from his conduct as public administrator except to himself as judge of the court.


Alfred Thompson: The distinction is so great that I cannot imagine the two things from the same standpoint at all. In one case it is a imatter of dollars and cents; in the other case it is a matter of life or death, and very frequently, a matter of personal liberty. In the one case, 'the man who came before the public administrator, only had to wait until the judge, in fact, returned which at the most, was a matter of six months. In the other case, there was no possibility of the man getting out of it. He was arrested by the police, committed by Mr. Macaulay as police magistrate and tried by Judge Macaulay as judge of the Supreme Court. The only appeal he had was to Judge Macaulay of the Supreme Court. How can you measure these two cases by the same standard? In that instance the Government did it, and I tfynk they were right in doing it from the standpoint of economy. But, here is the milk in the cocoanut. You could meet my hon. friend's criticism by creating another official. But by not doing so, looking at it from the standpoint of economy, you save a little money, but I 
question whether it is good economy or not. Mr. Black to-day is acting in the capacity of judge of the Territorial court. Judge Macaulay has gone on a vacation. He had a murder case to try at Whitehorse, 400 miles from Dawson, just before the close of navigation. He came up to try that case, and, if my memory serves me right, navigation closed while he.was there and he could not get back without going by the same line. While he was at Whitehorse he wired to his chief, the Minister of Justice, for permission to come out for a further vacation of three months. My hon. friend will appreciate the fact that the lawyers in the Yukon have their vacation In the winter time, when there is very little to do, instead of in the summer time when they are quite busy. Judge Macaulay wired for another furlough, and the Minister of Justice very kindly granted this to him. He is spending his winter at Belleville, Toronto and Montreal. Again, we had to have some one to act as interim judge, and we choose the man who acted with so .much satisfaction before. I have never heard of any criticism in the whole of the Yukon Territory of the conduct of Mr. Black acting in his capacity as interim judge. Even his political opponents admitted that he made a good judge. My hon. friend knows him very well. He knows that he is a gentleman of long experience at the Bar and <5T considerable attainments. When Mr. Black acted before-the same applies to his present service-he did not receive one dollar by way of pay, although he adjudicated upon several intricate and important cases in the Yukon.


William Pugsley: Then he was clerk of the court, public administrator, and judge?


Alfred Thompson: He not only was, but is now. He is considerable of a Pooh-Bah, but he is a good Pooh-Bah. I am anxious that my hon. friend should not overlook anything; I may mention that he is also legal adviser to the Yukon Council.


William Pugsley: What does he get for
that?


Alfred Thompson: $500.


William Pugsley: What does he get as
clerk of the court?


Alfred Thompson: I really do not know positively; about $7,000 a year, I think, altogether. The records show: salaries of the

Territorial Court sheriff, and clerk, $4,000 each,


William Pugsley: Is he sheriff, also?


Alfred Thompson: No. We are great
economists, but we do not think it wise to add the office of sheriff tp his other duties.


Mr. C. A. WILSON:: Is he sheriff, and
then announcer, and then judge of preliminary inquiry, and then judge of the session, and then hangman; does he perform all these functions?


Alfred Thompson: He is not sheriff, oi
hangman, or jailer. There are many things that he is not.


Charles Avila Wilson: He is so many things that we have to find out what he is not.


Alfred Thompson: If the hon. gentleman had been more assiduous in his attendance upon this committee, he would have heard just what this gentleman is and just what he is not.


Charles Avila Wilson: I may tell the hon. gentleman that when the Yukon Territory was organized two judges were named, Mr. Dugas and Mr. Craig. The Supreme Court of Canada is, I understand, the Court of Appeal for the Yukon.


Alfred Thompson: No, the Court of
Appeal is the Supreme Court of British Columbia.


Charles Avila Wilson: When Mr. Congdon was
the Crown Prosecutor I had to defend the Yukon murderers, Labelle and Fournier, before the Supreme Court of Canada as the Court of Appeal of the Yukon Territory Am I right or wrong?


Alfred Thompson: Right.


Charles Avila Wilson: Since that time, has any
change been made?


Alfred Thompson: Yes. I told the
committee before my hon. friend came in, that at one time appeal lay from the Yukon court to the Supreme Court of Canada When the court en banc was abolished, appeal was taken to the Supreme Courc o( British Columbia, and that is where we have our appeal now. If litigants wish to cary their cases further, I suppose they can carry them to ,the Supreme Court of Canada. We have only one judge there now.


Charles Avila Wilson: I thought you had two
judges.


Alfred Thompson: We had three judges, but we retired two. Mr. Black is interim judge while Judge Macaulay is on his vacation. Primarily his position is clerk of the court; he is also legal adviser to the Yukon Council and public administrator.


William Pugsley: How much does he get for his services as public administrator?


Alfred Thompson: He is paid in fees;
he gets five per cent of the estate.


William Pugsley: To what court does the administrator apply for letters of administration, and to what court are his accounts submitted for examination and approval1 Would it not be to the very court which he was appointed to preside over in Judge Macaulay's absence?


Alfred Thompson: I do not deny that.
There is but one court in the Yukon, and if there were an appeal, it would have to go to that court.


William Pugsley: That would be to himself, during the time that he was acting as judge. Does my hon. friend remember a case in which the judge, as police magistrate, tried a case in which he himself was a party?


Alfred Thompson: No, he never did anything of that kind. I defy any one to name a single case in which he sat in both capacities. I know my hon. friend wants to be fair, but he is wrongly informed. I say here on my responsibility as a member of the House that Mr. Black would not do that. My hon. friend would not do it, I would not do it.


Charles Avila Wilson: That is not the question; it is a question of jurisdiction, that is all.


Alfred Thompson: There is no question of jurisdiction, the jurisdiction is clear. He is acting in the three capacities at the present time.


Charles Avila Wilson: What capacities?


Alfred Thompson: Clerk of the territorial court, interim judge, and public administrator.


Charles Avila Wilson: I am sorry for these three offices.


Alfred Thompson: My hon. friend may be wasting his sorrow. I have not heard any sorrow expressed in the Yukon where he administers these estates and deals with these cases. The people there are satisfied; I have not heard a complaint'. It is they

whose judgment should 'be taken in this matter. I . admit that in normal times, with big revenues and a large population, this condition would not be permitted to exist; but the basic reason for this course is economy, which has been so strongly urged upon the Government by hon. gentlemen opposite.


Charles Avila Wilson: There is one thing I cannot understand. As a clerk, he would act for himself as a judge; and, being a judge, he would act for himself as a cleTk. Then, being a clerk and a judge, he would act for himself as a clerk and as a judge as a court of appeal. We had something of the same kind in Montreal when Judge Sieotte was clerk of the peace and was acting as magistrate of the court of en-quete and sitting as clerk of the court of King's bench on the criminal side. We objected very strongly to that. If you want to economize there are many other things in which it is possible to economize in the Yukon. The things which are important to the citizens are, first his life, then his liberty, and then his property. This man being a judge, and a clerk, and a sheriff, in the morning at 9 o'clock he, would sit as a clerk, at 10 as a judge, and at 11 as sheriff-or hangman. That is what I object to.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend seemed to think I was criticising the conduct of Mr. Black. I used to know Mr. Black in New Brunswick, and I should be very sorry to say anything as to his conduct since he has been in the Yukon. I have no reason to suppose that it has not been exemplary. What I complain of is the action of the Government in appointing a man to all these different positions. It would appear to me that Mr. Black was receiving a very large income indeed. He is
10 p.m.' public administrator of the whole Yukon territory, and my hon. friend says he gets five per cent of all the estates which he administers as public administrator. This must bring him in a very large income indeed. Then he is clerk of the court, from which office he gets, my hon. friend says, $4,000 a year. He is advisor of the Yukon Council, from which my hon. friend says he gets $500 a year; and there was something else, what was it?


An hon. MEMBER:: Hangman.


William Pugsley: I should suppose that in all probability Mr. Black's income would reach the very large sum of $15,000 or $20,000 a year.


Alfred Thompson: Oh, no.


William Pugsley: Do not let my hon. friend make any mistake. There have been many wealthy people in the Yukon, and, despite the invigorating climate of that country, some of them must die, as in other parts of the world. My objection is to this man being the administrator of estates and also being the judge of the court before which these estates may be brought in litigation. Thus ^people are deprived of the right to bring the administration of these various estates before -the court for proper judicial review. No Government should take a course that would deprive people of that right. The positions of clerk of the court and judge of the court are entirely inconsistent, and it is particularly absurd to say that one man in the Yukon, Mr. John Black, who, when in New Brunswick, was a most ardent Conservative, as I suppose he is still, should be made a perfect Pooh Bah and occupy all of these positions, to which considerable emoluments are attached. It is 'not only unjustifiable, but I say it is disgraceful that the Government should appoint one man to all these various positions.
Would this not be a good time for the minister to let us know what of these Estimates are to be actually expended and what are not? The Minister of Finance informed us that there were some $29,000,000 in these Estimates which the Government did not ifttend to expend during the coming year. The Minister of Finance pledged the good faith of the Government to this statement. We have been considering Estimates for a number of days, off and on, and so far we have had no statement from any minister as to what of the Estimates in his particular department are to be expended and what are not. The time has come, in my humble judgment, when this committee ought to be informed upon this point. We ought to know from the Minister of the Interior which of these amounts which he is asking for are to be expended. We have a right to assume that, before the Minister of Finance made the statement he did, the question had been considered in Council. It was a most important statement to make to the people of this country and to their representatives in Parliament. A very large amount is involved. I want it understood that the members of this House on both sides who do not ' occupy the treasury benches have a right to be ihformed upon this important question. I think it is only fair and reasonable that we should ask the Minister of the Interior to give us informa-

tion upon this point before we go on to consider these items. Surely the Minister of the Interior will be able to give to the committee that information as far as his department is concerned. I would ask my hon. friends on both sides of the House if we are asking for anything unreasonable when we make this demand. We are here representing the people, and are supposed to take, as we are desirous of taking, an intelligent view of these estimates, in order to judge whether or not we should vote the items. We have a right to know which of them are to be expended, and which are simply here upon paper and are not intended to be acted upon. Why does the Government bring these Estimates before us at all, unless they want our judgment upon them? We are not here simply to record, the views of the Government; we are not here simply to hear the Deputy Speaker read out these items, and then to pass them without some intelligent idea as to whether or not they are required for the public services during the coming year.
I appeal in the best spirit to my hon. friend the minister to inform the committee as to which of these items it is intended to expend and which it is not deemed necessary to expend for carrying on the public services in his department.


Alfred Thompson: Perhaps I might be permitted to add a word.


William Pugsley: Let the minister answer. My hon. friend might divert his attention.


Alfred Thompson: My hon. friend is not going to divert my attention.


William Pugsley: I have asked the minister to reply.


Alfred Thompson: If the minister
wishes-


William Pugsley: Perhaps he does wish; I have a right to ask him to reply.


William Roche: I do not know why the hon. member for St. John is putting up this sham fight.


William Pugsley: It is no sham fight, as perhaps you will realize before we *are through.


William Roche: I have not refused to give any information that has been asked. I allowed the hon. member for the Yukon to reply to the question because, as my hon. friend realizes, he is much more conversant with the matters of that Territory than any other member of this House, and he can answer as to the local conditions
better than I can. We are now on the item relating to the Government of the Yukon Territory. If my hon. friend had been present the other night he would have heard discussed many of the things we are . talking' of now. Are we going over these items and rehash them every time a member comes into the House, and waste the time of the House giving members information time and time again. If the hon. member for St. John wants an answer about these particular items, I may point out that they are divided into three:
Salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the Territory; grant to Local Council, and grant to Local Council for main-tenace of and repairs to roads.
The first is the item we have been discussing; the two others are fixed items which are requisitioned by the local council. The expenditure is under their jurisdiction; we do not expend this money. We vote it to the council, and they expend it. They have spent more than we voted. Take the expenditure on roads. The item for last year was $100,000; they have expended $140,000. Then in salaries and expenses, the vote was $128,000 and out of that amount we expended $115,000. It is not possible at all times to have right down to a dollar the exact amount which we are going to spend. I do not think that the margin between $128,000 and $115,000 is very large.
I have not refused to give any information, and I do not think I deserve a lecture which I have received from the hon. member for St. John.


William Pugsley: The minister has been
very fair, so far as those particular items are concerned. He speaks of my putting up a sham fight; what would he think would be a real fight? I am simply doing the best I can, as a member of this committee, to get information, and I would expect support from my hon. friend from Peel (Mr. Blain). When he was a member of the late Opposition he was very watchful; he was a perfect watchdog, and I would expect to have his co-operation. I am glad to see him here to-night, glad to see that he has come back. I appeal to my hon. friend from Peel to say whether I am not right. We must treat the Government as a whole. The Minister of Finance has informed Parliament and the country that although there are printed h$re in black and white numberless items, including the Estimates of my hon. friend, amounting altogether to the enormous sum of $189,000,000, it is the opinion of the Government that it will not be

necessary to expend $29,000,000 of that amount. I ask the Minister of the Interior in all sincerity if he thinks it is right to keep the members of this committee in the dark as to what the items are which, in the opinion of the Government, it will not be necessary to spend. I ask the minister whether he will not be good enough to tell us what items there are in his department, the expenditure of which will not be required. Then we will be able to help him along materially. I have seen the Opposition in this House do a great deal to facilitate the passing of Estimates, but we want to be treated fairly. I am not asking for anything but fair treatment when I ask this information to be given to the committee.


Alfred Thompson: Perhaps I may now be permitted to refer to the discussion which preceded the remarks of my hon. friend, and to. point out to the hon. member for St. John that in combining the offices to which he referred, the Government have followed the policy carried out by the late Government with great success, the object simply being to economize. The only estates of which Mr. Black acts as a public administrator, are estates in connection with which no will has been made, and, they are not large estates.


William Pugsley: Cases of intestacy.


Alfred Thompson: Yes. There are
not very many of them, and they are very small. I would not undertake to say how many hundreds of dollars a year he gets, but it does not amount to anything like the sum my hon. friend mentioned. Furthermore, when he sits as judge, he does not act as clerk of the court; the sheriff acts as clerk of the court. But this whole matter can be easily arranged if my hon. friend wants it. It would be an easy matter to get a clerk of the court and a public administrator.


Charles Avila Wilson: It is about time the judge acted as his own clerk.


Alfred Thompson: He does not act as judge and clerk of the court at the same time.


William Pugsley: He is the real clerk.


Alfred Thompson: I am not denying that. It is all a question of economy. We can get other men to do the work, if that is what is wanted, but we have been trying to meet the exigencies of the territory.
f Hr. Pugsley.l


William Pugsley: I think you could get two or three men to do the work at no greater cost than is involved in paying this one gentleman this enormous salary.


Charles Avila Wilson: Is there any official stenographer in the Yukon?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, George Craig and Harold Blackman; their salaries will be found in the Justice Estimates.


George Perry Graham: When I suggested that
some of the offices in the Yukon might be amalgamated, I had not in mind the offices that have been described by the hon. gentleman to-night. The minister got a bit cross with me for asking for some information with regard to the cost of the government of the Yukon Territory, but I think the information that has been given out tonight makes it clear that I did not make any mistake in asking my question. The minister himself says that he is asking for $13,000 more than he expects to spend.


William Roche: That was last year.


George Perry Graham: Well, surely my hon.
friend is not going to spend more this year than last. Could he not cut this $13,000 out? That would take a little off the $29,000,000 that the Government does not expect to spend. The minister says that he has made a reduction from last year, but that does not affect the statement of the Minister of Finance that approximately $29,000,000 will have to be cut off these Estimates. We on this side of the House are doing all we can to back up the Minister of Finance in getting this reduction made, and I think the minister might make a start. The country should know just what the Government intends to spend. It is not fair to the country as a whole, nor to the taxpayer, to allow this $29,000,000 to stay in the Estimates, and it will militate against the borrowing power of the Government,	because	when the
Government goes to the markets of the world, they will have to explain why they have expended $29,000,000 more than they should have expended, according to the Minister of Finance. It is not fair to the country, and it is not fair to the House for ministers not to intimate what items they do not intend to expend, nor is it meeting the wishes of the Finance Minister, who says that there are now in the Estimates $29,000,000 more than ministers should be allowed to expend.


William Roche: I do not think the Minister of Finance had reference to the Interior when he stated that there were amounts in the Estimates which it was not intended to expend. When the Estimates were being made up, I gave instructions to have them prepared with a view to the strictest economy, and some that were submitted to me I sent back with the request that they be reduced if it could possibly be done without impairing the public service, and I received memoranda back from those in charge of the preparing of the Estimates to the effect that they had been prepared on the lines indicated, and they did not see how the Estimates could be reduced without impairing the public service. That, in short, is the position of the Department of the Interior. There have been certain reductions this year, but as regards the ensuing year I do not think there is any large amount at all in the Estimates that we could say for a certainty will not be expended.


William Pugsley: Does the minister say that the Finance Minister made his statement to the House without the matter having first been brought before the council and carefully considered? Was council not informed how the $29,000,000 was made up?


William Roche: I think the hon. member knows pretty well that when the Finance Minister made that statement, his attention was directed principally to those Estimates in the Public Works Department, which were re-votes, and in regard to which work would not be gone on with this year.


William Pugsley: That accounts for only about $5,000,000.	,


Charles Avila Wilson: How many judges are there in the Yukon territory?


Alfred Thompson: One judge.


Charles Avila Wilson: I see by page 32 that the judge gets a travelling allowance of $500, and a living allowance of $5,000. Then, as sheriff he gets $4,000, and $4,000 as clerk, which makes $13,500 altogether.


Alfred Thompson: The judge is not the clerk of the court. This item would be clearer if it were written out as follows: Salaries of the Territorial court officials, such as sheriff-, clerk, etc. The judge does not get those salaries.


The CHAIRMAN:: May I suggest that as vve are not considering this. item at all, it would be better to postpone this discussion until the Estimates of the Justice Department are up. It does seem to me that no useful purpose can be served by considering the Justice Estimates at this stage, and I therefore hope that the discussion from now on will be confined to the item under discussion, which is, the government of the Yukon Territory.


William Pugsley: Perhaps the minister would explain how this $128,000 was exr pended last year.


William Roche: It is found in detail on page K-162, vol. 1, of the Auditor General's Report.


William Pugsley: I see the Hon. George Black gets a salary, of $6,000, and a living allowance of $6,000. What relation is he to Mr. John Black?


Alfred Thompson: A nephew.


William Pugsley: They have done pretty well.


Alfred Thompson: I am sure that my
hon. friend is glad that fellow-countrymen of his are doing well.


William Pugsley: They come from
my own province, and I have nothing to say against them personally. Is there any account of the $125,000 grant to' the Local Council?


William Roche: At K-236 of the Auditor General's Report.


William Pugsley: That gives simply the
amount for salaries, but does not give the names of the employees. Is there any return showing the names and what amount each person gets? I want to know if Mr. Black got any more of the money; he has already received nearly $20,000. The names are not given on this page?


William Roche: No.


Alfred Thompson: I think that is all Mr Black received.


William Pugsley: Does not the minister
require details showing the names?


William Roche: No, I do not think any
minister has ever done. so.


William Pugsley: And therefore this minister will not do so.


William Roche: I think the Auditor General has satisfied himself as to the correctness of this item.	*


Mr. BOULAY:: I would like to get some information from the minister as to the

number of employees in the Royal Northwest Mounted Police.


William Roche: I am afraid it takes all my time to give -accurately information in regard to my own department. 1 cannot meet the wishes of the hon. member for Laval in regard to the Department of Justice, and I am sorry to say I cannot meet the wishes of my hon. friend from Rimouski in regard to the Prime Minister's Department.
Scientific institutions-Astronomical surveys -Investigations and demarcations of the exterior boundaries of Canada, the triangulation, levelling and topographic work of the Geodetic Survey of Canada, and the Astronomical work of the Department of the Interior, including the expenses of the Dominion Astronomical Observatory at Ottawa and the branch therefrom at Saanich Hill, B.C., and $1,000 to W. P. King, as International Boundary Commissioner, $260,000.


William Pugsley: Is -this amount to be expended, and if -so, why during the present conditions of affairs?


William Roche: This is how this item is to be expended:
International Boundary Surveys-
(a)	Ontario Minnesota
Boundary . .	. . $25,000 00
(b)	Boundary between
Quebec and New Brunswick and the adjacent States	 25,000 00
(c) Boundaries generally, preparing and printing reports and maps 10,000 00

 $60,000	00
Geodetic Survey of Canada . . .. :. 125,000	00
Field Astronomical and Magnetic
work	
10,000	00Books, maps and photographic material	
5,000	00Instruments	15,000 00General expenses at Head Office . .	40,000 00Expense at Saanich Hill O-bservatotory	
4,000	00
Payment to Dr. W. P. King as
International Commissioner . . . .	1,000 00
Total	$260,000 00


Charles Avila Wilson: That could surely be left out in this time of war.


William Roche: Seeing that we are at present engaged in the work, we should not have any break in it. We have our staff and we might as well keep them at work.


William Pugsley: If they are all young men, perhaps they might want to enlist.


William Roche: They are not all young
men.


William Pugsley: From the statement of the minister, here i-s an expenditure of

$260,000 which is not required during the coming year. It is not required half as much as the expenditure on public buildings, but it is proposed to keep men at
work in investigations and demarcations of the exterior boundaries of Canada. Does this mean the provincial boundaries? How ridiculous it is that we should be now defining the boundaries of two provinces; although, I assume that as these are exterior boundaries, they must be the boundaries between Canada -and the United States.


William Roche: That is what they are.


William Pugsley: Is there any necessity for that?


William Roche: It is being done jointly
with the United States.


William Pugsley: That is very true, but
the United States would not complain if, by reason of the conditions due to the war, this work was allowed to stand over. The minister should bear in mind that the Minister of Finance has felt himself obliged to come down with proposals for taxation which mean the imposition of very heavy burdens upon all the business interests of this country. The minister must be aware that, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, complaints are coming in to the Government, as they are coming to the private members of this House, that the proposed taxation is going to be very burdensome. Not only is the minister proposing to put taxation in the future upon the business interests of this country, but he is proposing to adopt a principle which has not been recognized as a correct one; he is proposing to pass retroactive legislation.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must respectfully
ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the subject under discussion. I cannot see any connection between retroactive legislation and an item of $291,000 for scientific institutions for the Department of the Interior. I hope my hon. friend will try to confine his remarks to the item .under consideration.


William Pugsley: Mr. Chairman, I am
sure that you would not be unduly narrow in your rulings in regard to this question.
I do not want to question your ruling, but I see the error of it and the difficulties into which we would be led if it should prevail. It would mean that I could not point out the reasons why the Government at this time should - not ask for this large vote of $260,000. What reason can I advance?

Is not the financial position of the country the very strongest reasons which a member of this committee could urge against the voting of this large sum of money? Is not the fact that the Minister of Finance comes down and tells us that he cannot get along without imposing heavy burdens upon the business interests of the country, and not only imposing them for the future but taking them out of the pockets of those who have been carrying on these industries in the past year and a half, and thereby imposing retroactive legislation?' Surely, Mr. Chairman, you do not mean that I cannot give the reasons-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must point out to the hon. member that-his remarks might be very proper in the Committee of Ways and Means, but this is the Committee of Supply and the rule is very clear that the discussion must be confined to the item under consideration.


William Pugsley: Then, I move that this item be struck out, and I will proceed to give my reasons, which I think will convince the committee that it ought to be struck out. You, Mr. Chairman, speak of the difference between the Committee of Supply and, the Committee of Ways and Means. How can you vote Supply until you know that you will have the means to pay the money you vote? How can the Government ask . the committee to vote $260,000 unless they are going to state to the House the means by which they will raise that money? The two committees of Ways and Means and of Supply are indissolubly connected. Before the Government come and ask this House to vote any sum of money it ought to be in a position to say what it wants the money for. How is it proposed to raise this money to pay this $260,000, which is a part of the $189,000,000 which it is proposed to raise? The Minister of Finance, when he lays his Estimates, amounting to $189,000,000, on the Table, said: " we want a vast sum of money and how are we going to raise it? I am going to ask this House to raise it by imposing taxes upon the business interests of this country among other things; we are going to raise it out of customs, excise, and from other sources, but by reason of the vast amount of money which- we want for the ordinary services of the country we intend to impose this taxation upon the business interests of the country." I could not present to this committee any stronger argument in favour of
striking this item out than by mentioning this fact. Where is the necessity for it? I could understand that if there was an abounding revenue we might indulge in- this unnecessary expenditure; we might go on with our investigations and demarcations of the exterior boundaries of Canada; we might even take up triangulation, levelling, topographical work, geodetic surveys and astronomical work. We might do all that if we had the money to spend, but when there is distress all over this country, when people are contributing of their means for patriotic work and when (he Minister of Finance comes down and demands that this extra burden of taxation shall be imposed upon the people, it is not a time to expend a vast amount of money which is not necessary. I appeal to every member of this House, as to whether I am not right in that. You may say that this is only $260,000, but, after all, this forms a part of the vast sum which the Government are calling upon Parliament to vote. The Government have not the money to warrant them in expending this sum and in order to obtain this money, which is a part of the vast millions which they are demanding from the people, they are proposing to impose the extra taxation.


Charles Avila Wilson: Where is Canada after all? Do we not know yet? Notwithstanding the Treaty of Paris of 1763, we do not know the boundaries of our own country. We require a triangulation, an investigation and a demarcation to ascertain the pxterior boundaries of Canada. It. seems to me that we are quite behind the time. The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Thompson) was talking about the Alaskan boundary a few moments ago and now we have to spend $260,000 to find out the boundaries of our own home. I am perfectly sincere in what I am going to say. If this item refers to the salaries of the men who are employed in this work, I am willing to vote for the payment of salaries because I do not want to deprive anj man of his salary. He is accustomed to receiving his salary; he has based his system of living upon it. But why should we spend a large sum of money to find out whether Mount Stephen is 5,000 feet or 3,800 feet above the level of the sea? We know what lake Superior is;, we know what the prairies are; we know what the Rockies are; why should we spend a large sum in finding out whether Mount Washington is a few feet less than a certain

number of feet above the level of the sea? When we are spending a million and a half every day on the war, why should we spend a quarter of a million dollars to find out whether the ice at Glacier is colder than,the ice at lake Louise? I read a few of the items:
Investigations and demarcations of the interior boundaries of Canada.
We are living in peace with our neighbours in the United States; could we not postpone this expenditure while the war lasts?
Geodetic Survey of Canada.
I suppose we shall have to find out how many cubic feet of water flow daily over Niagara Falls; possibly $25,000 would cover that. We shall have to find out also whether the level of the sea has increased or decreased.
Astronomical work. Department of the Interior.
It will be necessary to ascertain, I suppose, when Venus or Mars will meet the bun. I agree that those employed by the department should be paid their salaries, but no other expenditure should be made.


Frank Oliver: What portion of the International Boundary Survey is included in this item?


William Roche: The Ontario-Minnesota
boundary, and the boundary between Quebec and New Brunswick, and the adjacent states.


Frank Oliver: Surely there cannot be much of this international boundary incomplete; the work has been going on for many years. So far as this vote is required by reason of an agreement with the United States, it is my view that it would be unwise not to provide the money necessary to carry out that agreement. Would the minister say whether the work proposed to be done is called for by agreement with the United States,?


William Roche: Yes, by article 5 of the treaty of 1908. The commissioner in charge of the matter in the United States is providing a vote to carry on their portion of the work, upon the understanding that we carry on ours.


Charles Avila Wilson: We are friendly with the United States; is there no way by which we could communicate witlji President Wilson or members of the United States Government, with a view to post-

poning this expenditure of $260,000? One cannot walk on the streets of Ottawa, Quebec or Montreal without being appealed to in some form or other, for funds for war purposes. I am giving as much as I can, and you are giving just as much as you can. Are we going to' spend $260,000 to secure the delimitation of the boundary between this country and the United States? By all means let us live up to our obligations under the treaty mentioned. But I suggest that hon. gentlemen opposite would be rendering a great service to their country if they could save a quarter of a million dollars by suspending this expenditure for the present. I would feel disposed to give it to the Minister of Militia for the purpose of serving the Empire and our country.


William Roche: This $260,000 is not all appropriated for the delimitation of the boundary between the United States and Canada. Only $25,000 is for that purpose.


Charles Avila Wilson: Save that.


Mr. BOIVIN:: Save the rest; save it all.


William Roche: If the suggestion of the hon. member for St. John were adopted, the result would be just the condition of affairs that the hon. member for Laval would deplore. $40,000 of this vote is for salaries of officials, who would be deprived , of this amount if the vote were eliminated. Parties are prepared to go out in the spring on this work; 'their salaries also would be sacrificed. I think it would be very ill-tjudged action on our part if we were to adopt the motion of the hon, member for St. John. As the hon. ex-Minister of the Interior justly states, we are carrying out our agreement with the United States in finishing this Ontario-Minnesota boundary line. I believe there are about 120 miles yet to be marked out.


William Pugsley: The minister says it
will cost $25,000.


William Roche: For the Ontario-Minnesota boundary.


William Pugsley: How is ,the $235,000 to
be expended?


William Roche: I read all of that a few
moments ago. The Ontario-Minnesota boundary, $25,000; the Quebec-New Brunswick and adjacent states boundary,. $25,000; boundaries generally, drafting, printing,

etc., $10,000; geodetic survey, astronomical work, general expenses, etc.-


William Pugsley: How much is the geodetic survey?


William Roche: It is $125,000.	.


William Pugsley: What is that survey?


William Roche: It is somewhat scientific,
and I think that the work done under this vote is not less for the Interior Department than fob some other departments, including the Public Works and Militia Departments.


William Pugsley: I was Minister of Public Works, and I never was able to see where it was of the slightest advantage to that depar^meno. I never utilized it and never could see how it could be of any advantage.


William Roche: I am informed by the
officer in charge that it is for the purpose of accurately determining points which will serve as bases for surveys of all kinds. The triangulation is to be continued. The precise levels are being determined in various parts of the Dominion. The total mileage of levelling to-day is 9,000 miles.


Frank Oliver: How does the vote for this year and last year compare with those of the past four or five years? Has it been increasing or decreasing during a period of say five or six years?


William Roche: There was a considerable
decrease, I understand, last year, and the vote is exactly the same this year.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It seems to me the minister has struck the crux of the question when he says that it would necessitate the disbanding of some of our parties and that men would be thrown out of employment if this vote were reduced. Why should they not be thrown out of employment at a time when individuals and communities are saving every dollar they can to carry on the war? Why then should the Government spend money on things that are absolutely useless? We know how these things are done. They have a number of officials and the minister says: We must keep these men employed. They have a lot of men employed oil these surveys, and it simply serves to keep them going during the summer. Why should not these men devote their time to something else, go to work and 11 p.m. really earn some money? Many of these men are ordinary labourers, or young men going through college, and in order to keep up the supply of
money for these people, this enormous sum is being paid. This Government does not realize for a moment that the country is at war and that immense sacrifices are being made. As long as they can borrow money by millions, they say the country is prosperous, and that they will keep this army of officials in employment. It has been pointed out that there are 11,000 or 12,000 more people in the employment of the Government to-day than there were four or five years ago. In order to keep these
11.000	useless employees of the country going along at high salaries, the Government says: if we do not vote this money we cannot keep our people going. The minister says it is necesary to spend $25,000 this year in order to delimit the boundary between New Brunswick and Quebec, and the neighbouring states. So far as the New Brunswick-Maine boundary is concerned, that was settled in 1842. The lines were then run out and, many years ago, this Government, in conjunction with the United States Government, surveyed it, and they have had party after party going over the country the last five years making re-surveys. The part of the boundary which is on land is marked by concrete posts which are in sight of each other, and on the lower and upper parts of the line, where the boundary is the 'St. 'Croix and St. John rivers, the boundary posts are set up on the shore in such a way that at any turn in the river engineers can determine from these posts, within six inches, the exact location of the line in the middle of the river. I am thoroughly familiar with the situation there and to spend money to delimit that boundary at this day is simply throwing away that amount of money.


Charles Avila Wilson: This $25,000 would keep
25.000	soldiers for a day.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If the rest of the work, between Minnesota and Ontario, is of the same character, and I suppose it is, as that between New Brunswick and Maine, the money there is simply being thrown away too. The geodetic survey might be of some use to scientific men in later years, but what use can it be to the people of Canada to-day? As I understand, it is a scientific process by which certain base marks are provided, and engineers or surveyors can go by them and by testing out can see whether their instruments are absolutely accurate and whether the levels of the water are correct to the tenth of an inch. That may be interesting from a

scientific standpoint, but of what use is it to the people of Canada to-day when every man, every woman, and every child are iepriving themselves of the real necessities of life in order to raise money to carry on the war? If there is a vote which has been - proposed by the Government during this session that ought to be struck out-I was going to say root and branch, but perhaps a few dollars should be retained to carry out treaty obligations-this is the vote. The minister, 1 hope, will take this into consideration, and if he cannot stop all of this expenditure, let him at least stop most of it and try to save $200,000 of this useless waste of money for surveys that have been completed and that age only kept up in order to provide salaries for a lot of political friends of the Administration.


Frank Oliver: I am very anxious to see that the obligations of the country are carried out, especially in regard to the boundary, but I must say that I was very strongly under the impression, like the hon. member for Carleton, that the boundary survey, as required under the treaty arrangements with the United States, had been completed some time ago. If it was not it seems to me that that would be a point on which to make the criticism that there has been undue delay in the administration of my hon. friend, because, when I left office, I am sure the work had progressed so far towards completion that, at the same rate, it should have been completed before now. If this proposed survey is merely something in addition, something that is not absolutely called for by our treaty arrangements with the United States,
I agree entirely with what the hon. member for Carleton has said.


William Roche: Since there has been so much objection on t'he part of hon. gentlemen opposite, I am willing to let the item stand for further consideration. My information is that the particular item referred to, the survey of the boundary line between the United. States and those provinces is the result of the treaty, and it has not been completed. It is work that has been progressing since before this Government came into power, and it did not receive any opposition when my hon. friends were in office.


William Pugsley: Things were different then.


William Roche: Yes, there was another government in power.


William Pugsley: There was no war.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And the work was not finished then.


William Roche: I thought it only right that .we should continue the work and complete it, but if hon. members desire this item to stand I shall offer no objection.


Frank Oliver: While the geodetic survey may be an entirely desirable means of information when we have the money to spare, it is a fact that at the present, time money is required not only for war purposes, but also for the development of necessary enterprises in which this country is now very heavily engaged. I am bound to agree that under these circumstances the work of the geodetic survey might be suspended for a period.


William Pugsley: Before this matter is
disposed of, I would like to ca'l the attention of the minister to the fact that from his statement there would be at the very most $50,000 in regard to which there would1 be any possibility of an implied obligation to the United States to complete the survey. That reduces by $210,000 the amount which it seems to me it is necessary to expend at the present time.


William Roche: What about the $40,000 for the head office?


William Pugsley: I do not understand that any gentlemen are engaged in this work at the head office but those who have permanent employment. Take Dr. King; he is a very eminent scientist, but he is employed at the head office at other work. He is the chief of the Astronomical Observatory, and so with others. Tnere is a good deal in what my hon. friend from Carleton said that in connection witn this work young men, students of the universities, are employed temporarily. Every young man to-day who is able and willing to work can get employment of various kinds. Then we know there are a great many men in the service who are enlisting, and the men who are permanently on the staff might very well be engaged to replace those who have enlisted instead of bringing in new men. I think the minister should reduce this vote by $210,000 at least, and on the understanding that he will give us a statement as to how he proposes to expend this money I shall withdraw my motion and let the item stand. The minister must not think for a single moment that we are raising these objections

from any narrow standpoint. We have a duty to perform, and that duty is to point out, if we can, to the minister that, in respect to various items which come up for consideration in the Estimates, the expenditure is not required in the public interest, particularly at this time when the war is on, and in view of the enormous taxation which it is . proposed to impose on the ->
people. We are trying to discharge our duty; we hope to do it firmly, and with some degree of intelligence, but we must do it persistently, and we must not allow these items to go through as a matter of course.
T should just like to say to my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works who is leading the v House that the work of the Government would be greatly facilitated if they would make up a list of the items comprising the $29,000,000 or $30,000,000 contained in these Estimates, which the Minister of Finance guaranteed to Parliament and to the country will not he expended because they are not required for the public services. To-night we are to a large extent in the dark. We do not want to obstruct the estimates of any minister; we want to facilitate their passage, but we also want to have the consciousness that we have done our duty,^ and, so faT as we can, prevented the passing of unnecessary Estimates. If this information were given to us, it would greatly facilitate our work, and, I am sure, the work of the Government. With that understanding, I will withdraw my motion and the item can stand.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11.17 p.m.
Thursday, March 2, 1916.