1916-04-14

CANADA TEMPERANCE ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 90, to amend the Canada Temperance Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this Bill is simply to make applicable to districts within provinces under the Canada Temperance Act the provision which, under the Bill now in committee, is made for the protection of provinces in which there is a prohibitory iaw. The amendment suggested will make it an offence to send from a district within a province which is under the Canada Temperance Act, into any other part of the province, liquors to be used in violation of the law in force in the balance of the (province. It is to extend the same protection in the case of soiling liquor within territory covered by the Canada Temperance Act, where that is permitted, for the purpose of being sent beyond the limits of the province. Further than that, there is an amendment with regard to penalties, providing a maximum as well as a minimum penalty, and an amendment to correct an error in one section in which the word " municipality " was used where the word " county " or " city " should properly have been used.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. A. E. KEMP (Acting Minister of Militia):: Mr. Speaker, I think it is in the

public interest that I should refer to a statement which was made in the Senate in reference to the recruiting of soldiers, particularly in the city of Toronto. According to the Senate Hansard report of the 12th of April, the Hon. Mr. Choquette made some very extraordinary statements in regard to the degeneracy of the soldiers, particularly those who are being recruited in the city of Toronto. The remarks would, however, apply to soldiers being recruited in any other part of Canada, as conditions are very similar in other places. The Senator referred to an item which he read from a newspaper, and on which he based part of his argument. That item is as follows:
The 169th Battalion, in recruiting to its strength of 1,131 men, examined 2,365 men, and therefore rejected as unfit 1,234. Another mounted squadron, amounting to 540 men, examined 1,744, and therefore rejected 1,204.
I shall not read what the Senator said, because his remarks have been published in the press, and we all know what they were. Later on he read to the hon. members	of the Senate, a letter
signed by a man who calls himself Robert Hazelton. The statements in this letter are extreme and uncalled for, and the whole letter can be judged by one remark in it. The writer refers to the Rev. Mr. Hincks in this way:
The "Rev." (?) Hincks is a faker. He is an adventurer' and to the native-horn he is known as a " Broncho Bullshooter," always blowing his own horn.
I desire to say that I am acquainted with the Rev. Mr. Hincks, as are many other hon. members of this Housb. He is a very highly respected clergyman, and is known as such from one end of this country to the other. Therefore, so far as the letter from Mr. Hazelton is concerned, it does not serve as a proper pretext for any of the remarks which Senator Choquette made.
I have received two telegrams from the commanding officer at Toronto, Brigadier General Loggie, which are as follows:
30,280 men have enlisted from Toronto. Officer Commanding 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles states that there were no rejections from the detail of Body Guard, Light Horse or 2nd Dragoons, hut 40 or 50 men in Brampton detachment were rejected for under-size. 169th reports that 1,336 rejections were made by his medical officer for chest measurements not being in proportion to height and age of men; flat feet and varicose veins. Medical examinations in this division were very strict and regulations absolutely adhhered to.
This causes an accumulation of men who have been previously rejected applying in each
succeeding unit in the hope of getting past the doctor. The recruiting depot is at work now on figures of total rejections in Toronto, and these will be forwarded early to-morrow morning (to-day). The A.D.M.S. of this division estimates about 30 per cent rejected. He found under-size, varicose veins and flat feet.
Further reference my telegram 13th instant, 37,402 recruits examined in Toronto, of which 7,122 rejected, 2,348 defective eye sight, 753 physically unfit, 626 flat feet, balance other defects.
Other defects include heart trouble, bronchitis, hernia, hammer toes, kidney disease, over age, and rheumatism.
Of these men rejected by 169th Battalion at least 25 per cent were repeated, that is men trying to enlist having previously been rejected. Total rejections of men examined 19 per cent.
I have here a short explanation which covers the whole matter, and which has been furnished to me by the officers of the department. It is as 'follows:
1.	The men to whom reference is made were not recruited and then rejected. They were medically examined before being recruited or enlisted, and upon being found not to be up to the medical standard, they were not taken on the strength and are not ,so shown.
2.	The medical standard required for enlistment is a high one, and it is in the Interest of the country that this should be so.
3.	In any large community, there are a number of mer. who are so anxious to enlist that they come up over and over again for enlistment in the hope of being able to pass the medical examination. Such men are known as " repeaters," and their anxiety to enlist is to their credit rather than otherwise.
4.	In England Lord Derby placed the deduction for medical unfitness at 40 per cent.
5 In Toronto 37,402 recruits have been examined of whom 7,122 have been rejected, or about 19 per cent. The cause of rejection being 2,348 for defective eye sight, and the balance for other defects, including over age, bronchitis, hernia, kidney disease and rheumatism, aa! also for minor defects such as flat feet or hammer toes and varicose veins.
6.	It is reported that the rejections for the Mounted Squadron were not as stated. The officer commanding the unit in question states that there were no rejections from the details received by him from the Governor General's Foot Guards, the Mississauga Light Horse or the 2nd Dragoons, and that only about 50 men were rejected by him for under-size.
7.	It is also reported that the rejections made by the medical officer for the 169th Battalion included at least 25 per cent of 'repeaters, i.e., men who tried to enlist but had previously been rejected. The other rejections were for failure to come up to the standard of chest measurement, for flat feet, varicose veins, etc.
8.	The percentage of rejections in Toronto is certainly not larger than in other parts of Canada or in any other country.
9.	It is absolutely false that there is any substantial proportion of men offering themselves for enlistment who are " diseased, depraved or deformed."
The city of Toronto has enlisted 30,280 soldiers. These men are as fine specimens

of manhood as the country can produce. They have offered their lives in a great cause. The blood of many of them has already drenched the plains of France to assist in crushing Prussian militarism, which seeks to dominate the whole world, including Canada. Many of them are now fighting side by side with soldiers of France who speak the same language as the hon. Senator. These men, who have been so foully slandered, are offering their lives with the soldiers of France to prevent the women and children of that nation from suffering horrors, tortures, and cruelties similar to those which a relentless foe perpetrated upon the women and children of poor, heart-broken Belgium. More than 300,000 men in Canada have offered their lives for the same purpose. Under these circumstances it is a fair question for me to ask, does Senator Choquette represent the opinion of any one in Canada except himself?


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York):: I think I would be in order, as a matter of privilege, to refer to the remarks made by the Acting Minister of Militia (Hon. A. E. Kemp) concerning the letter of one Robert Hazelton, which was mentioned in another part of this building. Coming from the constituency in which the writer of that letter lives, and having read the reflections he passed on those who were rejected when they applied for enlistment in Toronto, I have only this to say: that the constituency of South York, in which he lives, and which I represent, has sent over 3,000 enlisted men to the front, and the great bulk of them are British-born. I take this occasion to pay tribute to the loyalty and sacrifice of the British-born of Canada, and especially to those in my own riding, which has sent, along with the native-born, probably as fine a contingent, and certainly the greatest number of men sent from any riding represented in this House. On behalf of myself and of the constituency which I represent, I say that these remarks were unfair and most unjust, and a foul attack on the British-born in this country.



CENSORED DOMESTIC LETTERS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N.B.):: I wish to refer very briefly to a discussion which took place in this House yesterday on the censorship of letters. I find it stated in Hansard that letters from the United States addressed to the Prime Minister and to the
ex-Postmaster General (Mr. Lemieux), had been opened and censored, and that a number of members bad received letters from internal points in the same condition. I may say that to-day I received a letter of a very confidential nature from a member of my own family, who is ill in an hospital in Boston, which had been opened and censored. I would like to ask the Postmaster General if he thinks it necessary that private letters, or any other correspondence, of a member of this House should be opened by the censors. If the members of the House of Commons cannot be trusted to carry on a loyal and patriotic correspondence, then the House of Commons had better be dissolved and the country run under some sort of autocratic form of government. I may be taking a pretty strong ground on this matter, but I desire to bring it as forcibly to the attention of the Postmaster General as possible, to see if he does not think that some instructions ought to be given to the censors to leave alone the private correspondence of members of the House of Commons.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: I have a similar
complaint to make. I think it is very unfair that business letters coming from my own home town in Prince Edward Island should be opened and censored, -and letters of a confidential nature from the United States as well. I think we ought to have some ruling upon the matter.


Hon. T. C. CASGRAIN (Postmaster General) :: I understood my hon. friend to say that letters addressed to him from Prince Edward Island had been censored. If so, would he kindly send over the envelopes,^ and I will attend to the matter immediately.


James Joseph Hughes: I will do so if I can find them.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: As to letters coming from, and going to, the United States, the rule is that all such letters are censored. The only exemption which has been made is in favour of consuls representing foreign countries. It is a great inconvenience, but it is a sacrifice which we are obliged to make in this time of war, and we have no discretion in the matter.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: What about letters from one part of Canada to another?


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Certainly they should not be censored. I have telegraphed and

telephoned all over the country, giving the strictest instructions to postmasters, and informing them that they would be held personally responsible for any error of that kind.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: There never were instructions to censor letters addressed from one part of Canada to another.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: No, there were no
instructions to censor letters from any part of Canada to Ottawa, or to any other part of the Dominion. The only instructions issued were to censor mails which came from, or went to, the United States.


Wilfrid Laurier: Then the
instructions were not followed.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: That is why I took the opportunity at once to repeat the instructions to the postmasters throughout the country, and to inform them that they would be held personally responsible for any such errors in the future.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-RATES OF PAY.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the DAY:
Mr. F. B. McCURDY (Shelburne and Queens):: I draw the attention of the Minister of Railways to a matter affecting a large number of employees on the Intercolonial railway. I understand that the scale of pay allowed to trackmen, ash-pit men, and that class of labour, has been $1.60 per day. In these days of much travel, when the railway is busy, and also in view of the conditions which prevail in the outside labour market, I would ask the Acting Minister of Railways if he cannot see his way clear to make a revision upward of that scale of pay?


Hon. J. D. REID (Acting Minister of Railways):: With reference to the question of labour on the Intercolonial and rates of pay, I may say that this matter was taken up by the Minister of Railways and Canals with the general manager as far back as February last, and my information is that last month the wages of trackmen were increased to $1.75 a day, on country sections, and to $1.85 a day in cities. It has also been decided, commencing on the 1st of April last, to pay the coal shovellers, ashpit men, etc., referred to by my hon. friend, at the rate of $1.70 per day. These advances have been made voluntarily by the minister and the general manager.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MACDONALD:: May I inquire when the return concerning small arms munitions will be laid on the Table?


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed
that it has not yet been completed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 1 would ask the Acting Minister of Militia when I may expect the return moved for some time ago regarding the War Purchasing Commission. My hon. friend will remember that an order of this House was issued some three weeks ago, I think, for a return showing the transactions of the War Purchasing Commission down to the date of the order.


Albert Edward Kemp: My hon. friend may remember that on two or three occasions the Prime Minister explained to him the difficulty of getting that return prepared owing to the tremendous detail involved. If my hon. friend will look at his question and analyse it carefully, I think he will see that it is a very difficult return to prepare. I do not see how it is possible to get a sufficient number of clerks to prepare it. It would practically mean publishing the Auditor General's Report a year in advance, so far as the operations of the Militia Department are concerned. The operations of the Militia Department in connection with the War Purchasing Commission have been very extensive. About $63,000,000 have been spent by tfhe War Purchasing Commission on several thousand different items, as stated in an answer given to a question a day or two ago. I will submit to the House exhibits of the work of the War Purchasing Commission for the information of my hon. friend and of other members of the House, in order that they may be convinced of the difficulties of laying on the table of the House such a return as that asked for. I will bring these exhibits to the House at any time in order to demonstrate the impossibility of carrying out that order within any reasonable period of time, and I do not think that my bon. friend will insist on anything that is unreasonable.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is nothing impossible, and surely the Government of Canada has enough money with which to hire clerks. This House has ordered that that return should .be brought down, and I see no reason why the House should not have it. Even if it does mean publishing the



Auditor General's Report a year ahead of time, surely it will do no harm to the people of Canada to get that important information. We are entitled to it if it does take some time and some money.


Robert Laird Borden: It will be brought down if it is possible, but work that is more important will not be put aside for it.


Wilfrid Laurier: An order has been given by the House to have this report.


Robert Laird Borden: But the order
does not fix any particular time when it . is to be brought down. It will be brought down as soon as it is reasonably possible.


Wilfrid Laurier: After the session is over.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: When it is of no value to us.



PROHIBITION OR RESTRICTION OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.


[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee on Bill No. 66, in aid of Provincial Legislation Prohibiting or Restricting the Sale or Use of Intoxicating Liquors.-Hon. C. J. Doherty (Minister of Justice); Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
On section 4: accused must prove that he had good reason for believing liquor would not be dealt with illegally:
Mr. DOHERTY:: There are three words
omitted from section 4 of the Bill which I desire to insert, although they do not alter the sense at all. As the section reads, it is only applicable to offences under section 1, but it is not clearly stated. The first line of the section speaks of a violation of this Act. The words left out are " of section 1."
I therefore move:
That section 4 be amended by inserting, in the first line thereof, after the word " violation," the words "of section 1."


Mr. OLIVER:: I have a copy of the Bill, but there are no such words in section 4.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The Bill remained in
committee for the purpose of having it reprinted. It has been reprinted and I think it has been distributed. The Bill as originally introduced only created one offence which could come under this section, which is the section* dealing with the method of -proof. At that time it applied to any charge for a violation of this Act. Since then two

sections have been introduced; they have become sections 2 and 3, and the .section now .standing as section 4, that was left as applying to any violation of this Act, would apparently apply to an offence under one of the new sections, to which the context makes it perfectly clear that it could mot have any possible application.


Mr. PROULX:: It was suggested the other day that the measure should prohibit the importation from one .province into another. In Ontario there are distillers and brewers. It was said in the legislature yesterday by the Provincial Secretary that they would have this anomaly, that distillers and brewers in Ontario could ship liquor, say to the province of Quebec, reimport it into Ontario, and sell it for personal use. Whilst in Ontario they would only ibe able to sell it to certain persons and in limited quantities, they might ship it to Quebec, bring it back, and sell it in unlimited quantities for personal use.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If they did that they would be causing the liquor to be brought back from .outside the province of Ontario to be sold and used, and therefore they would be violating the statute. All these matters were thrashed out, and I tried to explain the situation when it was properly before the committee. The question now is whether these words should be inserted in section 4.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice what offence he refers to that section 4 would not be applicable to? It looks to me as if section 4 might very well be applied to subsection (a) of section 3-that is, the man who sends liquor in without labelling it. The burden of proof would be upon the party sending it in, or the defendant.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If the hon. gentleman will just look at this section 4 he will see that the presumption that is created is a presumption that a man had knowledge that the goods were to be used in violation of the law of the province. That is all that section creates a presumption about, and therefore it could not find any application to the offence created by section 3, where the knowledge of any intended violation is not part of the offence. If there is objection to putting thesis words in I will drop them, because, even if the section stands as it is, it can only find application to an offence under section 1. But it is not quite correctly stated by being stated in the way in

which it is now. The presumption that is created would have no bearing upon the other offence, because it is a presumption in regard to knowledge that .the goods were going to be used in violation of the law, and that forms no part of the offences under sections 2 and 3.
Section, amended as proposed, agreed to.


Mr. LEVI THOMSON:: I understood
there would be an opportunity of discussing fully every point of this Bill at this particular etage when -we have copies of the reprinted Bill before us. I am not sure whether I have misapprehended the meaning of section 3, tout dt strikes me that the offence under that section is practically the same as the offence under section 1, with the addition that the offender has sent in something that is not plainly labelled.


Charles Joseph Doherty: That matter was fairly fully gone into, and I pointed out that this is the essential distinction between the two sections. Under section 1 the gist of the offence is that one sends liquor into the province with knowledge that it' is going to be dealt with in violation of the law of the province. No matter how many labels he puts on that liquor, he will toe guilty under that section if he does that. Under the other section, entirely without regard to what is the use that is going to toe made of the liquor, the man is required to put labels on, and he will be guilty of an offence if he does not label the liquor even though its purposs are the most legitimate conceivable.


Levi Thomson: I thank the minister for his explanation, but there is another point in connection with that. For an offence under section 3 there is no minimum penalty. I am rather inclined to think that in all legislation of this nature there should be a minimum penalty. The minister has recognized that in section 1. We have frequently found, in prosecuting cases of this kind before magistrates, who perhaps have not any very great experience in such matters, that their feelings have a good deal to do with the penalties. The minister has found it necessary in section 1 to provide a minimum penalty. Would it not be well to provide a minimum penalty in section 3 as well? If the minister does not approve of that, then let me make another suggestion. Should not a distinction be made between the first, second, and third offences, in section 3 as well as in section 1? It might 'be well for the minister to
follow out the policy he has laid down in section I, and apply it to section 3 in that particular.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Section 3 is a section which was asked for in the terms in which it is put in the Bill. However, I see no objection to inserting a minimum penalty. I am not so much impressed with the necessity of defining the penalty for subsequent offences, because the magistrate has the power to impose a penalty as high as $200. I do not know what the hon. member would suggest as a minimum penalty; I would suggest $50, and I would toe quite willing to insert that.


Levi Thomson: I do not think that would be amiss, but I think there should be a minimum penalty. Would the minister make any distinction between the first, second and subsequent offences?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not quite see the need of doing that in view of the nature of this offence.
On section 3, reconsidered:


Charles Joseph Doherty: I beg to move:
That section 3 be amended by adding the words " not less than $50 and " after the word " penalty " in the second line thereof.


John Howard Sinclair: I think it is quite right to have a minimum penalty, but I do not see why it should be less than the minimum in the first section. It seems really to be a worse offence to put a fictitious label on a parcel than to send a parcel in : the former is an aggravation of the latter offence, and why we should, make a minimum penalty of $200 in the first section and of $50 in this section does not appear clear.
Section, amended as proposed, agreed to.
On the preamble:


Edmond Proulx: Section 5 says:
The court shall take judicial notice of the statutes and law of the province into which intoxicating liquor has been or is alleged to have been shipped, taken, brought, carried or imported contrary to the provisions of this Act.
Does the minister think that this will include legal procedure also?


Charles Joseph Doherty: That section has been adopted just as it stands; it has not- been altered in any way in the reprinting, but I have no objection to answering the question in regard to it. Inasmuch as a prosecution may take place in a province other than the province into which the liquor is

sent, it occurred to us-and I think it would be true-that a magistrate sitting in that province would not be called upon without this disposition, to take cognizance, judicially of the statute of the province into which the liquor was sent, and part of the provision is that it should be sent with intent to violate. This section is inserted to obviate the necessity of bringing witnesses to prove what the law of the province is, in order that a man may be able to produce the statute and .say: That is the law of the province, and the magistrate will take cognizance of it.


Edmond Proulx: There is no provision for appeals.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The prosecution: is by summary proceeding, and the provisions of Part 15 of the Criminal Code will apply so far as appeals are concerned.


Edmond Proulx: Would it not be better to state so in the Bill?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I really do not see that we gain anything, because we have made this an offence punishable upon summary conviction, and we have a statute expressly made for determining all those matters with regard to offences punishable upon summary conviction.


Levi Thomson: The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) was asking why the minimum penalty under section 3 is lower than that under section 1. I might give a little explanation. A man might be charged on one charge with the two offences. The gist of the offence under section 1, as I understand the minister, is the sending in of liquor to be used contrary to the law of the province, whereas the gist of section 3 is the false marking.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think a man might be charged on both counts. As regards making the minimum penalty under section 3 smaller than that under section 1, there are circumstances in which an offence under section 3 might be very serious; but a man might be guilty of the offence of failing to put a label on under conditions that might make it a very trivial offence, and I think we might leave the penalty to the discretion of the court.


Edmond Proulx: Does the minister not think it might be preferable to apply the provisions of the Canada Temperance Act with regard to procedure and appeals to applying the Criminal Code, because in the Canada Temperance Act the tribunal is

expressly defined, and the Court of Appeals is also expressly defined?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The hon. gentleman will find that the same things are expressly defined in the part of the Criminal Code to which I have referred with regard to offences punishable upon summary conviction, and now that we have made this an offence punishable by summary conviction, it seems to me that it is more desirable that we should make it come under the general law governing such offences. The provisions of the Canada Temperance Act are direct prohibitory provisions made by this Parliament, and dealing with the actual sale and trafficking in _ liquor directly. Here we have special legislation creating a new offence susceptible of being dealt with upon summary conviction, and I think that the hon. gentleman, if he will look up the provisions of part 15 of the Criminal Code, will find that they are as satisfactory .as the other, and we avoid making this particular offence, which is an offence to be dealt with upon summary conviction, differ from all other offences of the same class.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there any time limit affecting prosecutions under this legislation? Under the Canada Temperance Act a man must be prosecuted within three months of the committing of the offence.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not prepared to say offhand, without the Act before me, whether there is any general provision in the Criminal Code applicable ,to offences of this kind prescribing the time during which prosecutions may be brought. My impression is that there is one. If there be none, we are not by this 'legislation fixing any special time during which the prosecution must he brought.


Levi Thomson: I think it is six months.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not want to speak positively, because I have not the statute before me, but I am pretty positive that the hon. gentleman is right.


Edmond Proulx: I think it would be advisable to put a time limit in this Bill, and three months would be amply sufficient for an offence of this nature, because a prosecution should he brought soon after the offence is committed while the matter is fresh in people's minds.


Charles Joseph Doherty: It is desirable, I think, that we should have uniformity, and it would be unfortunate to make different de-

lays for each particular offence. I think we had better leave this to be governed by the general law.


Levi Thomson: I quite realize
the beauty of having uniformity as far as possible. The Act passed by the Saskatchewan Legislature a short time ago provided that appeals should be taken to the Supreme Court, the reason being that if they were taken to the district or county court, a host of different decisions would be rendered, which, consequently, would not be authoritative. To avoid that, provision was made for appeals to be taken to the Supreme Court judge sitting in the district. Perhaps it might be well to consider doing that in this case. The minister will understand that it makes for uniformity and authority of decisions.


Charles Joseph Doherty: That is a consideration that might lead us to deal with the general law later on, but I do not think it is specially applicable to this law.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Bill, as amended, reported, and amendments concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
On the Order:
House again in Committee on Bill No. 81, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.-Mr. Hazen.
Mr. HAZEN:: Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that Bill No. 75 and Bill No. 81 be referred to the Committee of the Whole House, with power to consolidate them into one Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee on the Bills, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
John Douglas Hazen: These Bills were agreed to in Committee of the Whole, and hon. gentlemen will remember that, instead of our reporting the Bills, progress was reported, as it was thought desirable to consolidate the two into one Bill. Answering some inquiries that were made the other day, under the law as it exists at present, gasolene boats ox fishing boats propelled by gasolene, and which are exclusively engaged in the carriage of freight, are not required to carry a certificated engineer. When the present Bill becomes law, gasolene passenger boats will be required to carry a certificated engineer. I beg to move:
That the two Bills be consolidated, and that clauses 1 and 2 of Bill No. 75 be made clauses 2 and 3 of Bill No. 81.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Bill (Nos. 75 and 81 consolidated) reported.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Department of Naval Service-to provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, Naval College and dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau, and Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $1,000,000.
['As the promoter is not\nhere, we had betteT let it stand.\n9. p.m. Progress reported.']
Mr. PUGSLEY:: How was the $1,000,000 spent that was voted last year?


John Douglas Hazen: Last year and the year be-fpre, on taking up the Naval Service Estimates, the right hon. leader of the Opposition requested me to make a general statement of the affairs of the Naval Service. So, before taking up the different items separately, I might read a memorandum I have prepared regarding this activities of tiie Naval 'Service with relation to the war:
Activities of the Naval Service Department in relation to the War.
Prior to the outbreak of war, preparations were made to meet all contingencies which could be foreseen. When war appeared imminent, it was only necessary to carry out or expand these preparations. Orders in Council which it would be necessary to pass had been prepared beforehand. Inter-action between the Naval and other departments in connection with war activities had been thought out, and the procedure to be adopted, the responsibility for taking the necessary action, and the methods to be employed in so doing had all been arranged so far as such matters could be foreseen. Thanks to the forethought which had been expended these directions, there was much less friction and delay in many important matters than might have been expected and anticipated.
In addition to the general administration of the dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau, the Naval College, at Halifax, the Niobe, Rainbow, Shearwater and submarines, Fisheries Protection Service, Rife Saving Service, Fisheries, Tidal and Currents Survey, Radiotelegraph and Hydrographic Survey, the department is actively employed on such matters as naval intelligence, contraband, enemy and neutral commerce, censorship, movements, etc., of store and troop transports, as well as being responsible for and organizing mine-sweeping flotillas, coastal patrols, harbour defence, etc., etc.
In order to cope with the greatly increased work thrown upon the department, it has been necessary largely to increase the staff employed at headquarters. Leaving out such sections of the department as Hydrographic Survey, Tidal and Currents Survey, Fisheries, etc., which have not been much affected by the war, the staff employed has been increased by over 100 per cent.

As an instance of the great amount of work got through in the department, one entirely new section alone, the Intelligence Branch, which has been organized since the outbreak of war, and in which only 12 per cent of the personnel of the staff of the department are employed, during February of the present year, received 972 letters, memoranda and reports, and 949 telegrams, whilst it despatched 1,476 letters and 726 telegrams. The work of the other branches has been "Correspondingly increased.
On the declaration of war the Niob* hnd Rainbow and the officers and men serving in them were placed at the disposal of the Admiralty. At that time the Rainbow was in full commission, having been in all respects prepared for sea shortly before, in order to carry out patrol duty on the Behring sea. The British Government asked us to undertake that work in connection with the treaty in regard to pelagic sealing. She was therefore available for immediate service, and was at once despatched south from Esquimalt to guard the trade routes and protect the sloops Algerine and Shearwater which were proceeding north. These two vessels arrived safely at Esquimalt, and since that time the Rainbow has bean continuously employed in the protection of trade and other duties in the North Pacific and on the coast of British Columbia, being attached to a squadron under the orders of the imperial senior officer at that station.
Arrangements were immediately made to commission the Niobe, and to complete her crew to full sea-going requirements. This was done partly by the transfer of the Imperial officers and men of the Algerine and Shearwater, which, owing to their small fighting value, had been ordered by the Admiralty to pay off at Esquimalt, and partly by the inclusion of 100 Newfoundland naval reserve men, the remainder of the crew, to the number of about 400, being recruited from men who had served in the British Navy and were resident in the Dominion. A large number of men of this class volunteered their services. As many as necessary were entered for service during the period of the war.
As soon as she was ready, the Nioble joined the squadron under the command of the Rear Admiral commanding the North American Station, in which she did duty until September last, when, owing to the very considerable amount of almost continuous steaming she had done since the outbreak of the war it was considered that the general state of her machinery and boilers did not warrant her continuance in this duty. This being the case, in conjunction with the urgent necessity of a depot ship to be used to accommodate the numerous drafts of men passing through Halifax, and of a parent ship for the vessels employed on patrol work, etc., on the Atlantic coast, it was decided to pay her off and re-commission her for the purposes indicated. Since that date she has proved very suitable for her new functions, and has been of utility in connection with Canadian and Imperial service.	,
The crews of the two submarines which were purchased by the Dominion Government at the outbreak of war, were recruited from officers and men in the Dominion, the Government being fortunate in this respect in obtaining the services of two retired officers of the Royal Navy who had both had several years' experience in submarines. These vessels were also placed at the disposal of the Admiralty.

Permission was also obtained from the Admiralty to use the Shearwater as a mother shin for. the submarines. This vessel was therefore adapted as necessary for this duty, and has proved her suitability for it. The Shearwater and the two submarines have been actively employed in the defence of the British Columbian coast, and, since the removal of the menace of Admiral von Spee's squadron, have continued training operations and cruises.
Naval depots were established at Halifax and Esquimalt for the accommodation of supernumerary ratings, etc. At Halifax buildings in the dockyard were adapted and utilized until it became necessary, owing to the increase in number and size of drafts, and other conditions, to utilize the Niobe for this purpose, as already explained.
At Esquimalt the depot was used for the training of R.N.C.V.R. officers and men.
A large number of other vessels, both Governmental and private, are being used in connection with the naval defence of the coast. They are being employed on the various services hereinafter specified.
The ice-breaker Earl Grey, on her sale to the Russian Government, was transferred to this department to be sent to Archangel; a crew of naval ratings was provided, and the vessel v:< s successfully navigated to her destination, the voyage of 3,000 miles being completed in 14 days. On arrival at Archangel she was turned over to the Russian authorities. The crew returned by ordinary steamer, some rejoining the British Navy, and some returning to Canada for further services in the Canadian Navy.
Personnel.-On the outbreak of war, recruiting was actively carried on to complete the Niobe's crew, as previously stated, and to obtain the requisite crews for other vessels employed on subsidiary duties, preference being given to men with previous naval experience. The naval volunteers which were established just previous to the outbreak of war developed largely in the west, where some 400 officers and men are enrolled. These volunteers have done good service both ashore and afloat, a considerable number having served con-4 p.m. tinuously in the Rainbow since the outbreak of hostilities, whilst others are in H.M.S. Newcastle, the various vessels at Esquimalt, including the submarines and their parent ship the Shearwater, and about 100 have been transferred to the Atlantic coast for duty in the various patrol vessels, etc., employed there. Their training is being continuously carried on.
The department has acted as recruiting agent for the Admiralty, and a large number of Imperial service officers and men have been reached, and arrangements made for their transportation from all parts of the Dominion to England. The department has also handled the transportation arrangements for numerous drafts of naval ratings proceeding to and from England.
In April of last year the Admiralty requested the department to select a considerable number of men to be trained as pilots for the Royal Naval Air Service. This involved a very considerable amount of work and correspondence, many hundred of applications for entry being received from all over the Dominion. These had to be gone into individually and arrangements made for the interviewing and medical examination of likely applicants. The number called for by the Admiralty was twice increased, but the full quota was easily obtained,

and nearly all have now obtained their flying certificates and have been sent to England. At the present date 180 have left Canada and are either on active service or completing their training in England prior to going on active service.
Recently the department was also requested by the Admiralty to ascertain what men could be entered for the Auxiliary Motor Boat Patrol Service. Several hundred applications have been received, and these are being classified pending the arrival of an officer, who, it is understood, is coming from England to make final selections.
Mine-sweeping.-At certain ports a minesweeping flotilla is provided. This consists of comparatively small vessels whose duty it is to keep the approaches to the harbour clear of enemy's mines. This entails daily operations on their part.
Patrol.-A number of vessels are employed on patrol duty on different parts of the coast. They are charged with the duty of keeping watch for hostile craft of all sorts, and tracing rumours of their presence. The patrol is organized jointly with the Imperial authorities and the Government of Newfoundland.
Wireless telegraphy and censorship.-It was found necessary at the beginning of the war to close a large number of stations. On the west coast, the situation having now relaxed, they have all been re-opened. In conformity with the procedure in other parts of the Empire, a censorship is imposed on all wireless telegraph messages emanating therefrom.
Enemy and neutral commerce.-All enemy merchant ships were ordered to be detained on the outbreak of war, the arrangement for this being concluded with the Customs Department.
The only German ship in Canadian harbours was the barque Bellas which was seized at Ri-mouski and has since been condemned in the Prize Court.
The Austrian steamer Ida was seized also, but subsequently released under the " days of grace " allowed.
Many important questions regarding contraband and neutral commerce are continually arising which indirectly affect the department and are dealt with accordingly.
The department is continually in conference with the Customs Department with a view to preventing coal or supplies reaching tne enemy or enemy agents by means of neutral or other vessels. Stringent steps have been taken to this end.
Coast defences.-At certain places guns have been mounted and manned by naval officers and men, whilst in other places protection has been prepared by the provision of motor torpedo boats and mines prepared for laying in case of emergency. As the situation relaxed, these were gradually withdrawn.
Naval intelligence.-A system for the collection and distribution of naval intelligence has been organized, acting in concert with the Imperial authorities.
Harbour defence.-All details connected with naval defence at defended ports are undertaken by this department. Amongst other things at Halifax and Quebec an examination service was instituted before the outbreak of war and has been uninterruptedly continued, except at Quebec, during the winter season. This is for the purpose of insuring that no vessel with hostile intent shall enter the harbour, and also to facilitate the ordinary flow of commercial ships.
To this end every vessel entering the harbour is boarded outside the port and her papers, crew, etc., examined. If satisfactory, she is allowed to proceed; otherwise, she is detained for further examination.
With respect to the naval dockyards, both establishments have been worked to the full output, a considerable amount of overtime having been worked. Halifax is being used as the base for vessels of the North Atlantic Fleet which has been lately strengthened; the dockyard is being used for carrying out repairs to these vessels and keeping them in going order. Number 4 jetty has been repaired and lengthened so that it will now accommodate large ships. The Niobe has been fitted up as a very efficient receiving ship. At the Esquimau yard the expenditure and personnel have risen correspondingly and work has been carried out on Imperial and Allied vessels, as well as those of the Canadian service. The total amount of money paid per month in wages for the two yards is approximately 300 per cent more than that customary to be paid for the same period prior to the war.
Stores and Contract Branch.
The activities of this branch have been maintained and considerably augmented during this year both at headquarters and at the dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau, and elsewhere as necessary.
Supplies are still being procured with difficulty and at greatly enhanced prices. The domestic market is uncertain, especially as regards metals and textiles. Nevertheless, reserves have been well maintained and, where necessary, increased. The value of stock available for immediate issue at the end of February was in excess of $600,000, and issues up to that time exceeded $750,000. (Note A.)
Purchases aggregating in value over $1,200,000 have been made. These include provisions, clothing, medical supplies, naval stores of every description, fuel, ordnance stores and ammunitions, etc. (Note B.)
Arrangements have been maintained on both the east and west coasts for the supply of fresh provisions at short notice to all ships requiring such, both Canadian and Imperial.
In addition, material assistance is being rendered to the Imperial service in the supply of stores of every description to His Majesty's ships from the several dockyards and also by direct purchase. Considerable quantities have also been supplied to and purchased for Bermuda dockyard.
Assistance has also been rendered in the same manner, but in lesser degree, to the Japanese, Russian, and French Governments, as well as to the Commonwealth of Australia. (Note C.)
The Imperial authorities continue to utilize our facilities at both dockyards to keep in reserve large supplies of special stores for the use of ships doing duty in the North Atlantic and in the Pacific. These are accounted for and looked after in the same manner and with the same care as are Canadian stores. Ordnance stores and ammunition particularly require great care and it has been found necessary to organize special depots for the purpose.
Supplies of fuel have been well maintained on both coasts. Receipts at Halifax exceeded 65,000 tons and at Esquimau 25,000 tons. Issues at Halifax exceeded 70,000 tons and at Esquimau 30,000. Balance of stocks have been somewhat reduced, but are still sufficient for all purposes and are constantly being replenished.

In addition to fuel handled at the dockyards, over 65,000 tons of Canadian coal was purchased for delivery direct to ships, of which over 50,000 tons was for the Imperial service. (Note D.)
During the year three small ships were added to the permanent establishment by purchase, and three others were added for the period of the war, two of which were loaned by private individuals and the other by the Department of Customs.	'
These were all thoroughly equipped and stored and are being served regularly.
In addition, 18 vessels of varying dimensions have been chartered for various purposes on the Atlantic Coast, such as mine-sweeping, harbour defence, examination service, and patrol work. Also 14 large motor launches have been chartered for patrol service in the gulf of St. Lawrence and adjacent waters, and 5 for service on the Pacific Coast.
Supply depots have been provided as necessary at points along the coast for the convenience of these vessels.
H.M.C.S. Rainbow has been maintained in commission and kept fully stored and equipped for any emergency.
Canadian Trnsportation.
The arrangements under which the Canadian Transport Service operates have been continued in force and considerably enlarged. There are nOw operating under Admiralty Charter on this service over sixty ships. The work incidental to handling this service is carried out under the joint direction of the Acting Director Overseas Transport, who is responsible for the organizing of the cargo, and the Department of the Naval Service which directs the movements of the ships and is the medium of communication with the Admiralty on all matters.
Up to the close of navigation at Montreal last fall over 300,000 tons of freight had been handled by this service and since then export tonnage has greatly increased. In the month of February 138,000 tons were shipped from the ports of Halifax and St. John. In March 173,000 tons. The number of steamers handled at these ports .during these two months was fifty -six. Arrangements have been made for the loading and despatch during the summer season of navigation of an average of one ship per diem.
In addition to the general stores handled by this service over forty cargoes of timber, aggregating about one hundred and twenty-five million feet, board measure, have been shipped from various ports on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts.	<
Radiotelegraph Branch.
The policy of the Government in developing and maintaining an efficient Radiotelegraph Service, and its early recognition of the fundamental principle of absolute Government control of all wireless matters, has amply justified itself in the present emergency.
It is hardly necessary for me to emphasize the vitally important part this comparatively new medium of communication is playing in the present war, and, I am pleased to say that our policy of preparedness in this regard is a tribute to the foresight of the officials in whose hands has been the organization of this service.
Its most important object is, of course, to provide efficient and adequate means of communication with such fleets as may be operating in our waters. Our stations, owing to the geographical position of this country, occupy a

natural strategic position with regard to the North Atlantic and Pacific oceans, and by the reservation of certain stations solely for naval work, and the concentration of the best operators in the country at those stations, we are providing a service which is meeting, in the highest sense, the present requirements of the Admiralty.
Radiotelegraphy, I might add, is also of inestimable value in providing a means of communication with points otherwise inaccessible except by cable, thus Canada, possessing as it does two transatlantic stations, is to a certain extent independent of the cables, and, in case of interruption, would by no means be isolated from the Mother Country.
It would not, at this moment, be wise to make public full details of what has been done in connection with our service since August 1914, but I may say, that, immediately hostilities became imminent, a pre-arranged war scheme was placed into effect. With the exception of the Mabconi transatlantic station at Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, all the licensed stations throughout the Dominion were closed down, 108 in all, and arrangements were made with the Dominion police and militia authorities to see that no unauthorized stations were established ; 20 Government stations not absolutely essential to war procedure, and which it was impossible to adequately guard, were also closed until the situation modified itself, when 17 of them were reopened for commercial or naval work. The stalls of the Government stations left open were augmented, and certain other stations, operated by the Marconi Company under contract, were taken over by the department and provided with a naval staff. The Militia Department provided military guards at all the important stations, and censor staffs at such stations as were permitted to handle commercial messages.
The transatlantic station at Newcastle, N.B., having a staff of foreigners, was, naturally, a matter of suspicion to the department; a small military detachment was accordingly immediately detailed to assume possession. This station remained closed until August 19, 1914, on which date an officer of this department was detailed to act as censor and technical assistant to the military officer commanding, and the station was permitted to resume operations. It has since been found advisable to increase the naval staff, and this department has assumed control of the operation of the station.
A certain amount of work in connection with new construction, and the enlargement of existing stations has also been undertaken. All the vessels of the Patrol Fleet have been equipped with wireless apparatus and, under an arrangement with the Admiralty, the department is installing and operating radio equipments on all unequipped munition transports plying to Canadian ports. All told, 45 ship sets have been installed to date. The operators are enlisted in the R.N.C.V.R., but, owing to the shortage of competent men, it has been necessary to hire 20 from the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company for duty on transports; these will be replaced by R.N.C.V.R. ranks as they become available. All operators on ships and shore in the employ of the service are entered in the R.N.C.V.R. with the rank of " wireless operator," equal to that of 4' non-executive warrant of ficer," a total of 84 men not including the technical and executive staffs.
The regular work of the stations has, as far as possible, been carried on in addition to the extra duties entailed by the war, and last year,

in spite of the closing of many of the stations the total number of words handled amounted to 3,055,543.
In conclusion let me state that the war has demonstrated beyond mistake the wisdom of the attitude of the Canadian Government, past and present towards the valuable discovery of radi otelegraphy.
I thought that it would be well, perhaps, to make a general statement along these lines before taking up the items in the Estimates.
I think my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) desired to know what amount we had spent last year.


William Pugsley: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: In a general way, the
following is a detailed estimate of the expenditure:	Royal Naval College, $90,000;
dockyard at Halifax, $200,000; dockyard at Esquimalt, $85,000; Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $200,000; general amount for salaries at headquarters, pensions, contributions to Imperial Government, and miscellaneous expenses, $50,000; amount available for the Niobe, Rainbow, submarines, etc., $375,000. The amount expended last year was $512,805.66. Up to the 31st of January of the current year, we have expended $386,440.31. A large amount of this expenditure comes out of the war appropriation, and it might therefore be argued that this vote might very fairly be reduced by a considerable amount. The difficulty about that, however, is as I pointed out last year, that if the war should cease, and these different services had to be carried on, we are advised that we would have no right then to draw upon the war vote for that purpose. It is for that reason that we are asking for $1,000,000. If the war goes on, I presume the amount spent will not be larger than it was ,in 1914-15, amounting to about $500,000. With the war on, the expenses of keeping up these ships, which are placed at the disposal of the Imperial Government, are paid for by the war vote, and do not come out of the ordinary appropriation voted by this Parliament for the ordinary expenditures. That is the reason why such a considerable portion of the amount was not spent. Unless we have the vote, we would, if the war should cease, find ourselves in very considerable difficulty in getting it for the purpose of carrying on the service.


William Pugsley: What about the three
vessels purchased?


John Douglas Hazen: Gut of the vote for war
purposes, the Naval Department spent last year, in round figures, $3,600,000.


William Pugsley: Would the minister
state the number of vessels owned by the Canadian Government, and employed in the Naval service, and the tonnage of each?


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend will remember that that matter was brought up by the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) in a motion for papers, and it was not thought desirable that we should give a public statement regarding these vessels and their tonnage, and in that view the hon. member for Pictou concurred. I told him that we would be very glad to show him, or any other member of the House in confidence a statement giving the information, but we did not think it advisable to have it spread on Hansard and in the newspapers. I would say the same thing to my hon. friend from St. John. I would be very glad to furnish him with the information confidentially.


William Pugsley: I did not want the details. Perhaps the minister will tell me from whom the three vessels were purchased during the year and what their tonnage is. There can be no objection to that.


John Douglas Hazen: I have no objection to telling my hon. friend, but I have objection to the information being made public.


William Pugsley: Are they cruisers, destroyers, or motor boats, or what are they?


John Douglas Hazen: They would be described
as steam yachts.


William Pugsley: I am sorry my hon.
friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux), the former Minister Of Naval Affairs, is not present, as he would have been able to speak with reference to these Estimates to greater advantage than I can. I desire to express my appreciation of the fact that the minister, referring to the value of the radiotelegraph service, thought that both this Government and the previous Government were to be congratulated upon the acquisition and development of that service. It is a very important service, but I thought it was quite a serious omission in the statement of my hon. friend that, when he was in the mood to congratulate the Government, he did not go a little further and congratulate the Government and Canada upon the fact that the late Government had acquired two very worthy war vessels

which had proved of great service to Canada for the defence of her coasts since the outbreak of the war. Perhaps that was an omission on the part of my hon. friend that was somewhat pardonable under the circumstances, and with the recollection that he would have of what has taken place in connection with the Canadian naval service in recent years. I have had the opportunity of reading the report of ViceAdmiral Kingsmill for the year ended the 31st March, 1915, and I have observed that in that report he said:
With regard to the activities of the Naval Service Department in relation to the war, preparations having previously been made to meet all contingencies which could be foreseen, it was only necessary to carry out or expand these preparations when war appeared imminent.
That seems to me a somewhat extraordinary statement to make, in view of the fact that the Niobe, so far from being kept in a state of preparedness to meet any eventualities which might occur, was actually laid up at Halifax and had her boilers stuffed with some sort of material which would prevent them from rusting; so that it took several weeks before the Niobe could be got ready for sea after the war broke out. It did strike me that that was a strange way to have a vessel in commission. That is the Government's way of keeping a war vessel in commission, and it may be a way which commends itself to the Naval Service Department under its present management.
I do not wish to unduly criticize that proceeding, but it may be thought desirable 'to have some further explanation as tc whether this is a mode which should generally be adopted when it is felt desirable to make preparation in the event of war.
In regard to the Rainbow, there is no doubt she was kept in commission, but apparently not because the gentlemen who occupy the treasury benches really thought that war was imminent, but because the British Government had requested that the Rainbow be used in patrolling the Behring sea. It is most fortunate that the British Government thought that Behring sea ought to be patrolled, because I have no doubt that the boilers of the Rainbow would have been choked up with this non-rusting material with which the Nioibe was so plentifuly supplied, and which took some weeks to remove in order to have the latter -vessel placed in commission. Vice-Admiral Kingamill bears testimony to the value which the Rainbow has been to Can-

ada for the defence of the Pacific coast. He says:
The Dominion Government shortly before the outbreak of war purchased two submarines which were building at Seattle for the Chilean Government. The crews were recruited from officers and men in the Dominion, the Government being fortunate in this respect in obtaining the service of two retired officers of the Royal Navy who had previous experienec in submarines. These vessels also were placed at the dispsal of the Admiralty.
Permission was also obtained from the Admiralty to use the Shearwater as a depot ship for the submarines.
These three vessels have all been actively employed in the defence of the British Columbia coast.
Thus bearing testimony to the value which this much-despised Rainbow has been to Canada for the defence of the Pacific coast.
As to the submarines, I do. not propose to say anything now, but I realize that it i3 important to have submarines for the defence of the coasts of Canada. Without going into the past, without sayipg anything that might lead to altercation or unpleasantness, I wish to express the hope that even at this late date my hon. friend will see his way clear to engage in the building of small war vessels at all events, to be placed in the service of the Canadian Government. It is a matter that ought to be remarked upon that the only submarines which have been built in Canada since the war broke out have been built at the shipbuilding plant of the Canadian Vickers-Maxim Company, a plant which, I am proud to say, I as Minister of Public Works, was instrumental in having established in Canada. My hon. friend may perhaps remember-I am sure he will not object to my calling his attention to the fact-that on one occasion in this Parliament he spoke of a company whose plant I had visited-that of the Fore River Shipbuilding Company, a most magnificent plant, which at that time was only in operation for a year or two, and which had turned out a large number of war vessels, submarines, cruisers, and commercial vessels for the Government of the United States-he spoke of it as a bankrupt concern. Instead of orders being given direct to Canada for the building of submarines, this company, I think my hon. friend has knowledge now, has received an order for the building of twenty submarines from the British Government, the contract price being some $10,000,000. Fortunately, owing to the fact that under international law the sending away of these submarines,

when they were completed, from the United States to one of the belligerent countries would not be permitted, an order was given for half of them to be built at the plant of the Canadian Vickers-Maxim Company, near Montreal. In that way a considerable amount of labour was employed in Canada. I believe that these submarines, after having been taken across the Atlantic, did exceedingly good service in connection with the1 British fleet. I am told that one of these submarines built in Canada sank a German cruiser in the Black sea, showing certainly that it was a most efficient vessel.
It is a matter of regret to me also to learn that this Government, instead of engaging in the building of patrol boats and establishing shipyards on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, has purchased vessels of this character. I am told that three of these vessels have been purchased in the United States. The minister will correct me if I am wrong.
The minister has also stated that nineteen motor boats were chartered for use by the Canadian Government. If there is one class of boats which Canada could build, and with very little delay, it is motor boats. There is no reason in the world why motor boats for the service of Canada, as well as motor boats for the service of the Imperial Government, should not be built in Canada. May I appeal to my hon. friend to take time by the forelock, to look ahead, not to be guided by what he may toe absolutely certain will happen, tout toy what may by possibility toe required for the defence of Canada, and let him encourage the building, not of large war vessels, but of submarines, motor boats, oil-tank vessels, cruisers, and torpedo boat destroyers, in Canadian shipyards. Let him give reasonable encouragement to this, and he will be doing what may in the future prove to be of inestimable value for the defence of Canada and for the service of the Empire. We cannot be sure how long this war may last. When it broke out there were many gentlemen in this House, even gentlemen occupying seats upon the treasury benches, who thought it would toe a light task to defeat Germany, and who enjoined our young men to come upon a holiday trip to Berlin. That was the idea which many of them had. My hon. friend from North Simooe (Mr. Currie) said the other day that when he crossed he supposed the war w'o-uld last about six weeks. Well, it has lasted now twenty months, and no man who looks at the question seriously can
predict with any degree of confidence that it may not yet last for just as long a time as it has already done. Therefore it seems to me that this Government ought to become sensed of the responsibility which rests upon this Dominion as one of the great overseas Dominions of the Empire, and it ought to avail itself of the opportunity which Canada presents for building ships upon tooth oceans, and enter at once upon the building of those smaller war vessels which I have mentioned. In doing that the Government might also at the same time encourage the building of a Canadian mercantile marine* to assist in carrying on the trade of Canada. Yesterday, when my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) had his Estimates under consideration, I ventured, because I feel deeply upon this question, to attack the Government because, although this Parliament has been in session for three months, and although we have had two sessions since the war broke out, the Government has not taken one effective step to encourage the building up of a Canadian mercantile marine. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce asked me to wait a while, not to disturb him in getting his Estimates through;	but	now, when	we	are	discussing	the	Estimates	of	the	department whose minister ought to be giving special attention to this subject, I venture to suggest the matter again for the consideration of the Government. I feel sure that gentlemen on both sides of the House will let this Government know what they think o.f the lamentable inactivity which has been permitted to exist in this direction since the war broke out. I said last night that it was deplorable. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce objected to that. I repeat that it is deplorable that a Government representing 8,000,000 people, governing a country which has thousands of miles of coast line, administering the affairs of a people iwho, not so many years ago, turned out merchant vessels which were the pride of Canada and which sailed upon every sea, should remain idle and inactive so far as this important question is concerned, while they see month toy month and year by year the vessels flying the Canadian flag disappearing from the ocean. I appeal in the utmost seriousness to the Government, even at this late date, to take some effective steps towards encouraging the building of Ships in Canada and towards restoring, in
)

some measure at all events, our mercantile marine to its former position. 1 may be blamed tor bringing up this matter too often; but it is of such vast and vital importance from a national standpoint that no member of the House is doing his duty if he fails to .bring it to the attention of Parliament so long as nothing is being done. The ears of the ministers cannot be so deaf that if one beeps talking to them and pressing this upon their attention, they will mot at last pay 'heed to what the representatives of the people in this Parliament may say to them upon this important subject. . .	*
It was stated by .my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce that he was waiting for suggestions. That is not *creditable to the Government. Do not let them be so doubtful as to which is the best course to pursue that they will do nothing. Let them get to work. Whatever reasonable proposition they may submit to the House for the establishment of a Canadian mercantile marine will, I am sure, be cheerfully supported by hon. members on both sides. Only let them get to work; let them do something; let them show that they appreciate the situation which exists to-day .and the deplorable condition which will exist to a greater extent not many months from now if this war continues.
There are many ways in which shipbuilding may be encouraged. One most important way is by placing all materials which enter into the building of ships upon the free list, so that' we may relieve as far as possible the burdens upon those who are willing to engage in that work. I have it on reliable authority that if the Government will take off the duty on machinery, engines and boilers of the most modern type, which are necessary for shipbuilding, there are men in Canada ready to go to work without delay. Of course, the building of steel vessels would take longer than the building of wooden vessels; but the Canadian people, who, as we know, have the instinct of shipbuilding, would be able within a very few months to build wooden vessels; and, if the Government would allow the machinery for auxiliary power, the modern engine, to be brought in free of duty, I am satisfied that men would be found willing to engage in the building of wooden ships. Those ships would not, of course, last as long as steel vessels; but, if the war continues, they would pay for themselves, even at half the present rates, two or three times oyer in the course of a few years. My hon. friend knows that I pre-[Mr. Pugsley.J
sent that only as one way in which shipbuilding can 'be encouraged.
The Government might also, under the circumstances, having in view the national necessity of having more ships in the Canadian trade, encourage shipbuilding by the giving of bonuses. This session we are granting to the Government the enormous sum of $250,000,000, not entirely for war purposes, because they have asked us to give them authority to utilize a part of that amount for purposes which are not immediately connected with the war. One of the objects for which this money may be user: is:
Promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or otherwise.
It will be interesting to the House to be informed whether or not it is intended to apply any part of that amount either directly towards the building of ships or to the encouragement of shipbuilding. Certainly it would be quite possible for the Government, in the interest of Canada and for the purpose of encouraging the transportation of the food products of Canada to the Mother Country, to use a portion of that very large appropriation for that purpose.
I have seen it stated that if the war continues the question of the food supply of the Mother Country may become a serious one. Has the Government given any thought to that question? Only the other day a leading member of Parliament made the statement, which was surprising to me, and it may be surprising to other hon. members of this House, that at least one-half of the food supply of Great Britain to-day is carried on vessels belonging to neutral countries, and he expressed the' fear, which he said was becoming widespread, that as the activities of the German submarines increased and a larger proportion of vessels were destroyed, neutrals might hesitate to send their vessels to Great Britain, because they could employ them in other trade with almost equal profit, and with very much less danger than they would, necessarily encounter in their present trade. If this is a condition of affairs which is likely to exist in the future, how desirable it is that Canada should build up as quickly as possible a mercantile marine of her own ! Canada is in a position to supply the Mother Country with a large proportion of the foodstuffs she requires, as well as munitions of war, a!nd other supplies and manufactures which

may be required. Canada is vitally interested, not only from the standpoint of the Empire, but from the standpoint of the producers of our own country, in having ail reasonable facilities for the transportation of our products to the Mother Country and the Allies. This matter, therefore, presents itself not only from the standpoint of encouraging Canadian shipbuilding, thus giving employment to Canadian shipwrights, not only from the- standpoint of the Canadian producer, to whom it is desirable to afford the opportunity of sending his products to the Mother Country at as cheap a rate and in as large quantities as possible, but it is also important from the standpoint of the Empire, because an adequate food supply for the Mother Country and cur Allies is of vital importance in connection with the conduct of the war.
I desire to submit these views again to the Government, because this seemed to be a proper time, when the Estimates of the Naval Service Department were under consideration. I wish to congratulate my hon. friend and the Government that, notwithstanding the election assurances they gave prior to the election of 1911, that if the Conservative-Nationalist party should come into power they would at once take the necessary steps to repeal the Naval Service Act of 1910, they have not thought it in the interests of the countiy to repeal that Act. M,y hon. friend from Kings, P.E.I., (Mr. J. J. Hughes) reminds me that although that assurance was given in the House, yet there are times when the necessities of the country, and the necessities of the great Empire of which Canada forms so important a part, would justify members in breaking their word who ordinarily would like to see their pledges carried out. Hon gentlemen opposite could well say to the people of this country and to themselves that they were justified in taking that course in the interests of the country which they are serving, and for whose interests they ought to have the highest regard. I congratulate the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Government that these pledges were not carried out, and that the Naval Act stands on the statute-book to-day, and that this Government, without asking for further legislation, is in a position to encourage the building of war vessels, submarines, cruisers, torpedo-boat destroyers, patrol boats, or whatever else might be required. This Government, by reason of their not being so blind to the interests of the country as to repeal the
Naval Service Act, are in a position to go ahead to-day with what is in the best interests of their country in this respect. Without unduly finding fault, it is necessary in this eonnection to express one's regret that since the war broke out they have allowed twenty months to pass without taking one step in this direction; they have neglected to take any step in this direction ever since they came into office in October, 1911. Let me ask them now, before it is too late, to devise and submit to Parliament some plan which will enable them to undo, even in some small measure, the wrong which during these years they have committed against Canada. Let me urge them to take steps at once to provide in some measure, however inadequate, for the defence of the coasts of Canada and of our trade, and for the building up of a Canadian mercantile marine, which I am sure would prove of inestimable advantage to Canada and of the greatest possible service to the Empire.


Mr. TURRIFF:: I think the minister said in his statement that .the department had bought some 19 motor-boats.


John Douglas Hazen: Not bought, but chartered.


John Gillanders Turriff: Were these boats Canadian-built?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


John Gillanders Turriff: Chartered for the war?


John Douglas Hazen: No, they are chartered
from time to time as they are needed.


John Gillanders Turriff: Have any steamboats been bought by the department outside of Canada since the war began?


John Douglas Hazen: We did not buy them outside of Canada, but they came from outside of Canada.


John Gillanders Turriff: They had been brought in before the Government bought them?


John Douglas Hazen: Not very long before.


John Gillanders Turriff: Apparently they were
brought in by some party who resold them to the Government.


John Douglas Hazen: That is not it. I shall be very glad to give my hon. friend all the facts privately, but for reasons, the sufficiency of which my hon. friend would recognize, this is a matter that cannot be put on Hansard or in the newspapers.


John Gillanders Turriff: I do not wish the minister to say anything that it would not be

dn the interest of tiie country to divulge. Did the parties who brought these boats into Canada have to pay duty on them?


John Douglas Hazen: You can generally trust the Customs Department to look after the collection of duties.


William Pugsley: Except at Morrisburg.
Mr.'TURRIFF: If these were motorboats-


John Douglas Hazen: They were not motor-boats.


John Gillanders Turriff: If they had been motorboats they might have been brought in on those scow-loads of goods that entered Canada without the knowledge of the Customs Department.


John Douglas Hazen: They could not do that.


John Gillanders Turriff: The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) suggests that by way of encouraging shipbuilding in this country the Government might, under the present war conditions, remove the duty on machinery and on everything that would enter into the building of wooden or iron ships in Canada. The matter has been discussed during this session, but so far we have not been able to get any statement from the Government as to their policy in this regard. I would go a little further than the hon. member for St. John, and suggest that vessels built in other countries, in the British Isles, for instance, should be allowed to come in absolutely free of duty.


John Douglas Hazen: Vessels built in the old
country come into Canada free of duty. No duty is imposed on the vessel or any portion of it. The contents, even to the dishes and napkins and things of that kind, come in duty free.


James Joseph Hughes: Not from the United
States?


John Douglas Hazen: No, from Great Britain.


John Gillanders Turriff: I am glad to hear that. Do I understand that all materials entering into the building of vessels in Canada come in free of duty?


John Douglas Hazen: No. The plates, shapes,
and things of that kind would come dn free of duty, but the machinery would not.


John Gillanders Turriff: The Government are reversing their ordinary attitude on this question.


John Douglas Hazen: That has been the law for very many years.


John Gillanders Turriff: I have heard my hon.
friends spend hours arguing that all this work should be done in Canada, yet here is a case where they actually discriminate against the building of ships in this country. Since the Government allows vessels built in Britain to come in free of duty, why should they not allow the material that would enter into the construction of vessels in Canada to come in free of duty? This would be doing something to start an industry in Canada the result of which would be increased business, increased manufacturing, increased labour for our men. What I particularly wish to point out is the extent to which this matter affects the people of Canada, more especially the people from the part of the country that I represent. We are to-day paying over 40 cents a bushel for the carrying of our wheat to the old country. According to reports in the newspapers, two or three British vessels are sent to the bottom every day by German submarines. If this keeps on for another year, where are we going to be? How are we going to get our produce .over to the Old Country? That is a matter that Britain is interested in just as much as we are, and no doubt Britain is 5 p.m. doing everything in her power to keep up the construction of merchant vessels in order to meet this wastage. The destruction of British and neutral vessels by German submarines is much greater to-day than it was six months ago or three months ago, much greater than it has been at any period during the war. Tramp steamers capable of carrying from 4,000 to 8,000 tons could very easily be built in Canada; in some parts of the country vessels of that size and of larger sizes are built. Vessels of this kind are quite capable of navigating the Atlantic, and there is no question that they could be built and completely equipped in Canada. The Government should encourage the building of ships in Canada in the interest of the cities where the ship-yards would be established, in the interest of the Empire, and particularly in the interest of that portion of the Empire which is producing foodstuffs, that are just as necessary to the British Government in the matter of bringing the war to a successful issue as are guns and ammunition. We are absolutely unfair to our own people when we refuse to allow the material for the construction of vessels to come into Canada duty free, and we are not doing our duty to ourselves and the Empire when we

take no steps to encourage shipbuilding at a time like this. It takes only a very short time to build such a vessel as I have described.
Hon. gentlemen opposite have a good deal to learn in the matter of building vessels. Only three or four years ago the right hon. leader of the Government said that it would take fifty years to build a war vessel in Canada, but it was proved within the last year or so. that submarines could be built in Montreal in a few .months-submarines that are equal, I imagine, to those built in any other part of the world and better by far than the submarines my hon. friend bought for use at Victoria and Vancouver, which will not to-day go out very far from land. Besides, foT these submarines my hon. friend paid almost two prices. Hon. gentlemen have had an example shown them by an American firm coming to Montreal and building submarines for the British Government-an American firm doing what we say we cannot do, and doing it in one of our own cities. Surely there is something wrong when that state of affairs exists. I am not so- much .interested in the building of war vessels, because that is. a matter that the British Government can take care of at home. I think it was at Great Britain's request that these submarines were built in America. The hon. member for St. John pointed out that the war is not by any means over. I was one of those who thought that the war would not last up to the present time, but, like other men in the country, I knew absolutely nothing about it. I think we are realizing that Kitchener was pro-bably nearer the truth than most men when he said that the war would last at least three years. It does not look today as if we were near the end of it. In my judgment the only way we shall bring it to an end will be by wearing Germany out financially; I do not think that we are going to. drive the Germans back and force the way to Berlin. If the Government are alive to their duties and responsibilities, they will, out of the $250,000,000 that we purpose voting in this House, or out of an additional vote if they want it, do something to encourage the. building of ships in Canada, either the smaller war vessels or commercial vessels-more particularly the latter-and so enable us to help ourselves, to help the Empire, and to help bring the war to a successful conclusion as quickly as possible.


William Findlay Maclean: I was pleased to hear within the last day or two that the Minister of Trade and Commerce intended to have discussed, the question of ocean tonnage and ocean rates. I heard, also, a portion of the speech of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley), and that of the hon. member who has just sat down (Mr. Turriff). I agree that every shipyard in Canada ought to be engaged in building ships that would help to relieve the pressure in regard to ocean tonnage and ocean freight. It is surprising what we can do in Canada in the way of shipbuilding if we do not attempt it on too large a scale. For instance, we have built steamships in the inland ports of Ontario that can be taken apart aind so taken through the canals, put together in Montreal, and that make first class freighters on the Atlantic. A Canadian company has routed a number of boats intended for inland navigation, on the Atlantic, and they are helping to relieve the pressure, and some of them have been taken into the service of the Admiralty for war purposes. If we can build those ships in our inland shipyards we ought to be building them now, because the pressure is increasing, and at the rate at which ships are being destroyed now there wili be a greater necessity hereafter and we shall need more ships, to take-our produce across the Atlantic. I did not hear all of the speech of the hon. gentleman in reference to the discussion in this House some years ago when the proposal to furnish dreadnoughts was up, but at that time I thought the opportunity had arrived, by reason of the policy introduced by the Government, of creating a great shipbuilding industry in Canada. I believe that we can build ships in this country. We are building them, and we can build a great many more. To my mind national policy certainly calls for the development of shipbuilding in Canada. Whatever legislation or policy would bring that about would certainly meet with the approval of the country, and I hope, the Government have some policy in that matter. Probably when the Minister of Trade and Commerce comes to discuss this subject he may have some suggestion to make.
I desire to bring to the attention of the Minister of the Naval Service and of this House tiie part that Canada can play in the building of airships. In Toronto today there are being built the finest and best aeroplanes used in the service of

Great Britain in the war in Europe. I have been at the factory there, and have seen proba'bly 600 men engaged in building airships. They are built on the most modern specifications, and they are so successful, the plans are so well drawn-I believe the British Admiralty had a hand in the drawing of the plans-that it is not necessary to experiment with them; they are so accurately built and have succeeded so well that they are shipped from Toronto just as they are completed, now at the rate of three a week, and I hope that within a short time at least six a week will be sent. Whoever is responsible for that work being done should receive credit for it. I hope that the Government are entitled to some of that credit. I know that an association of gentlemen in Toronto have taken up this question of aviation and the part that Canada could play in building airships. There is this advantage about the industry, that in going into it we start even with all other nations. It is a new industry. We have the draftsmen, the mechanics, the factories and every facility for the building of airships. The aeroplanes that are now going forward from Toronto weigh 4,000 pounds. They will carry three men and 2,000 pounds of war material. They are, next to the dirigibles, probably the most efficient flying machines being made to-day. We can build these aeroplanes; we have proved it; and I hope the Government will take up this question of building them. It is weil know that the use of cavalry in war for scouting purposes has been largely discontinued. The place of cavalry on land and of the scouting vessel at sea is taken by these aeroplanes; and, that being the case, and we being able to build them, I hope that the minister will devise a pelicy-if the war is to continue, and we know that the end is not in sight-which will stimulate still further the production of aeroplanes in Canada. They could be built in Toronto, in Montreal, in St. John, and in Halifax. The gentlemen who are connected with this industry in Toronto are very anxious to see a school of aviation organized in Canada in connection with the naval college at Halifax. I hope the Minister of Marine will take up that suggestion, which has been made by this association in Toronto, and that we shall have a school in Halifax devoted to aviation, because we are able to turn out pilots for these vessels equal to those turned out in the old country; and some of the Canadians who have gone to the front as pilots of airships have showp themselves to be just as competent 
in the airship as our troops are in the field. I trust that before this session is over the minister and the Government will be able to say that they have considered this question of aviation and the building of airships, and that they will do something that will still further stimulate this industry. Only two or three days ago I heard that the company now building airships in Toronto have received another order from the British Government and that still other orders will be forthcoming. But while I am glad to see that the industry is developing in Canada, I fear that our Government has not sufficiently encouraged this branch of war production. The British Government is encouraging it, and giving orders for aeroplanes in this country. 1 think that this Government, if they wish Canada to play the part in the war which it is competent in every way to do, should encourage a school of aviation and the building of these flying machines in Toronto. If they do that they will make a substantial contribution to the strength of the Empire and materially improve the part we ourselves will be able to play in this struggle. So I trust that both the question of shipbuilding in Canada, in v hick I know the Minister of Trade and Commerce is very much interested, and the question of aviation, will receive the attention of the Government; and that some kind of advanced national policy in respect to both of these things will be announced at an early date.
Mr. HAZEN While I have no objection to a discussion of the question of the construction of ships for commercial purposes, it is not a matter that' properly arises on the items of the Naval Service. It is a matter that more properly fails within the jurisdiction of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and I understand that, either yesterday or the day before, an understanding was reached in the House, as a number of members wished to discuss this subject while my hon. friend's Estimate,' were under consideration, that one Estimate should stand until Monday or Tuesday, when it was understood there would be a general discussion of the subject of the construction in Canada of ships for commercial purposes.
1 may say, in answer to some statements that have been made, that there is no doubt whatever that, if the war continued, and freights remained at the present figure, it would be only a short time-freights having increased so much since the outbreak of the war-before ships of that charactep, if con-

structed and placed in commission, would practically pay for themselves. But it is not so easy, and not possible within so short a time as my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) suggested, to have a commercial ship constructed and put in commission. I am referring to ships of 7,000 tons and 10,000 tons, which iny hon. friend mentioned. I am in a position to tell him that if he entered into a contract with a Canadian shipbuilding company tomorrow to build ships of that character, he would find, in the first place, the prices exceedingly high because of the very high cost of steel, and it would not be until well after the opening of navigation on the St. Lawrence in 1917 that the ships would be ready to be placed in commission and to do the work for which they Were intended. I mention that, not as an insuperable objection, but for the information of my hon. friend, which may be useful in the discussion when it comes on next week In the meantime, if the war should come to an end before commercial ships could be constructed, it would be reasonable to expect a falling-off in the high freight rates that are being paid at/the present time, though my own belief is that, in view of the destruction of commercial ships since the outbreak of war, freights would remain above the normal figure for some time to come.
My hon. friend from Assiniboia alluded to the submarines that were purchased ' and that are now at Victoria, and he suggested that they could not go to sea. I want to remove that idea from the mind of my hon. friend, and to tell him that we have daily reports in the department of what these submarines are doing, showing that they are most efficient vessels, and able to do what other submarines are able to do anywhere, and take equally long voyages. The price paid for the two submarines was $1,150,000. Perhaps my hon. friend from Assiniboia heard my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) say that twenty submarines, the contract for which was given by the British Government to the Fore River Shipbuilding Company, or to Mr. Schwab, and which were partly built at the Fore River shipyard, partly by the Union Shipbuilding Company at San Francisco, and assembled at Montreal, cost $10,000,000. That would -be $500,000 each. They were submarines of practically the same size as those acquired by the Canadian Government at Seattle, and yet the contract price was $10,000,000. I think my
hon. friend will find that if the price the British Government paid the Canadian Vickers Company for the use of their shipyard was added, it would have added considerably to the contract price that was paid to Mf. iStohwab. I point that out to my hon. friend, as I know that he has no desire to make statements that are not in accordance with the facts, and he was probably .misled-


William Pugsley: Will the minister state the length of the submarines which were built at Montreal?


John Douglas Hazen: They were practically of
the same length. They were submarines of a class similar to those we purchased, and, as I have said, a portion of them came from the Fore River shipyard, and a portion from the Union Company's shipyard at San Francisco. In fact, the gentleman who was in charge of the assembling of the submarines at Montreal was Vice-president and General Manager of the Union Shipbuilding Company of San Francisco. But when he considers that the British Government purchased twenty submarines, that they were not purchased in a hurry, that they cost on an average the same as the submarines purchased by the Canadian Government' at Seattle, and that they were practically of the same type and size, I think my hon. friend from Assiniboia will come to the conclusion that although the two submarines purchased at Seattle were bought in a hurry, and there was no time to dicker about the /price, and that the matter of price was not of very much importance in the circumstances, the Government of Canada made a pretty fair bargain.


John Gillanders Turriff: I am not relying upon
anything that I heard in this House; I am relying absolutely on the statement made by the expert of the Chilian Government, as to the price that the Chilian Government was to pay for the submarines if they were up to standard, that he had inspected the submarines and found that they were not up to specifications, that therefore they were refused by the Chilian Government, although they had been almost paid for, and that the price to the Chilian Government was very much below what this Government paid for them.


John Douglas Hazen: That statement is disputed; but, apart from that, I refer my hon. friend to the evidence which was given before Sir Charles Davidson, which was referred to in this House on a former occasion, by



men who aie experts in Tegard to submarines, all of whom testified to the effect that these two submarines were well fitted for the service for which they were intended, and as efficient as any submarines of the class to be obtained anywhere. The fact is, that these submarines have done excellent work, and I do not know what purpose is to be served, from a party standpoint, or from any other standpoint, by decrying them, and endeavouring to make it appear that they are not equal to the work for which they were intended.


John Gillanders Turriff: Hon. gentlemen opposite did not take that view when they talked about the tinpot navy.


John Douglas Hazen: and 'Commerce allowed the $1,000,000 item to stand over for the purpose of possibly being able to announce that he had entered into a contract for the proposed service. The Minister of Trade and Commerce said that there would be an opportunity of discussing the question of shipbuilding later on, but I do not know that it would be more appropriate in connection with those estimates than with the estimates of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the commercial side of it.


William Pugsley: Except that simply it refers to the subsidy for the service.


William Findlay Maclean: I appreciate
very much the statement made by my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in regard to aviation; but I wish to point out in reply that it is more a matter of the army than of the navy, and that as such it was brought before the Department of Militia and Defence, but has not received very much encouragement in that direction. The whole evidence of this war emphasizes the importance of flying in warfare. I have been in touch with gentlemen connected with the Admiralty who are engaged in the construction of airships, and their testimony is that we in Canada can establish just as good a flying school and build just as useful flying machines as in any other country. While he says that a flying machine is not of very much account in relation to navigation, I wish to point out that if the German navy broke away from its refuge in the Kiel canal and passed the British line and got into the Atlantic, it would raid our Canadian ports, and especially cities such as Halifax and St. John, and would be able to do great damage in'that direction. The only way, not of heading off such an invasion, but of giving intimation of it, would be by a corps of flying machines manned by Canadians and men trained in Panada. So that the matter of defence in the way of flying machines comes right home to us. The manufacture of flying machines is something we can do as well as any other country, and we start on an equal footing with every otheii country in regard to this matter. Therefore, to my mind, it is worthy of encouragement. With the exception of the engines, those machines which are turned out in Toronto are all made in Canada. The engines can soon be made here, and in 
that way we shall be able to turn out probably the most active, certainly the most useful, of the new arms of warfare that are being developed in this war, and I trust that the minister will reconsider the question and talk it over with his colleagues and see if it be not possible to start a school of aviation in connection with the naval college at Halifax.


Mr. PARDEE:: What number of men did the miriister state had been recruited for the naval service of Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: Does not my hon. friend mean the Imperial service?


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Well, I think it was both.


John Douglas Hazen: The figures I gave were the number who had been recruited for the Imperial service, and I think they were something, like 600.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: And for the Canadian service since the war broke out?


John Douglas Hazen: I think about 1,000.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What has become of those who have been recruited for the Canadian service?


John Douglas Hazen: They are employed on the different ships throughout the country- upon the Rainbow, upon the submarines, upon the Shearwater, upon our patrol service on the Atlantic and on the Pacific, upon our mine-sweeping service, upon our examination service, and upon the different other services that we are carrying on.


John Gillanders Turriff: Did the minister say that the Naval Service of Canada cost $200,000, that is, of this sum of $1,000,000?


John Douglas Hazen: That is not what I said. I gave, in the Estimates making up this $1,000,000, $200,000 for the Canadian Naval VolunteeP1 Reserve, but practically none of that amount will be spent unless the war ceases this year. The hon. gentleman will remember that a few months before the war broke out we started to organize a naval volunteer reserve in different parts of the country, and we had an appropriation in our Estimates, but we had to cease that work during the progress of the war owing to the difficulty of getting competent instructors, practically every one of them being at present engaged in work connected with the war.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What is the method of recruiting for the Naval Service?


John Douglas Hazen: The men who enlist are
purely volunteers. At the opening of the

war, when we wanted recruits, we let that fact be known in Toronto. There was a gentleman there who volunteered his services, and most efficient services they were. I refer to Colonel Aemilius Jarvis, who is a broker in the city of Toronto. Admiral Kingsmill went to Toronto, and the men who enlisted were medically examined there.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Was the fact that recruits were wanted advertised at'the lake ports?


John Douglas Hazen: It was advertised in all
parts of Canada at that time, and men came to us from all over Canada. The men who came were nearly all old naval men who were living in Canada, and who were qualified at once to step into the positions.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Were many of those who offered their services rejected?


John Douglas Hazen: Nearly all those who came to us were qualified men.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The whole 1,600?


John Douglas Hazen: There were others who
came who were not qualified and we could not take them, but practically all who enlisted were qualified men. There were some who applied who had no experience at all and who were not suitable for the purposes for which we wanted recruits.


John Gillanders Turriff: Last week one of my constituents wrote to me wanting to do something in the way of helping in this war. He is 85 years of age. I was wondering if my hon. friend could find a place for him.


John Douglas Hazen: An hon. member suggests
that it might be a good thing to appoint him to one of the vacancies in the Senate.


John Gillanders Turriff: I will accept that. I
thank my hon. friend very much. I will notify my constituent.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: He would hardly qualify as an aviator.
Fisheries protection service-to provide for the repairs and maintenance of fisheries pro.eo-tion steamers, $375,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is the same amount as was voted last year and for several years past, and it seems to be about the right amount. The expenditure in 1914-15 was $367,497.74, and in 1915-16, up to the 31st of January, $238,310.57. This is the service that protects the fisheries of Canada from inroads by people from other countries.
Fisheries protection service-to provide for new vessels, $30,000.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Where are those vessels to be placed?


John Douglas Hazen: This is for one vessel for lake Erie. The department considers that in order to carry out efficiently the fisheries protection work on lake Erie an auxiliary vessel is required to work in conjunction with the Vigilant, now employed on that service. The other day a delegation of fishermen waited upon me-I do not know whether my hon. friend was with them, but there were a number of members of Parliament present-and complained that the Vigilant alone was hot able to take care of the poachers from the American side of the line.


William Pugsley: Where is this vessel being built?


John Douglas Hazen: We are just getting the plans prepared, and there are two courses open to us: we might build it at the Government shipyard at Sorel, or ask for tenders.


William Pugsley: It will be built in Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: Has the minister had many complaints during the last year about the beam trawlers?


John Douglas Hazen: We have had very feiw complaints about them during the last year, that is, about their coming within territorial waters. I suppose that is what my. hon. friend means.


William Chisholm: I am surprised at that.
Hydrographic surveys, including the survey of Hudson Bay, $340,000.


William Pugsley: I take the same view of this work as I take of a considerable quantity of work in the different departments that is, that it is a class of work which, to a large extent, might well be allowed to stand over until the stress and strain of this war has passed.
. Mr. HAZEN: The amount is $50,000 less than that of last year.


William Pugsley: True, but even then this is a large amount of money to spend qn a class of work that we go! on very well without this year.


John Douglas Hazen: This kind of work was done last year.


William Pugsley: What I mean is this: Canada can get on very well if the 'hydrographic surveys remain just as they are during the coming year. This vote is asked so that the work may be continued; but why should we undertake new work of this nature when every available dollar is required in connection with the carrying on of the war? The minister may say it is only $340,000, hut the same thing is going on in all departments of the Government. Only the other day the Minister of the Interior wanted us to vote a very Large amount of money for Geodetic Surveys that were absolutely unnecessary. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are being voted for different services which could very well stand over this year without the slightest injury to the interests of the country.


John Douglas Hazen: This service is very much in the public interests. It is very important that proper charts should be made of the waters about our coasts. It is not a new work, but has been going on year after year. The vessels engaged in that work are the Acadia and the Cartier, on the Atlantic coast, the Bayfield and La Canadienne, on Lake Superior, and Lilloet and the schooner Naden, on the Pacific coast. Mr. Stewart, who has been director of the surveys for the last nine years, is a most competent man. I think it would be a great mistake to drop this vote and disorganize the whole survey, when we should have to reorganize it again in a few years.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the tonnage of these vessels?
Mr. HAZiEN: About five or six hundred tons.	[DOT]


William Pugsley: The war has disorganized a great many services.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but I do not think we have reached the stage where we should cut off necessary work of this kind. The work will be interfered with to some extent this year, in any event, because a number of most competent young men in the Hydrographic service have gone to the war, making it impossible for us to carry on the work as actively as last year. I think my hon. friend will recognize the importance of having accurate charts made, so that navigators can see just what reefs are in their course, the depths of water, and other things of that sort that are necessary for navigators to know.


Frank Oliver: I notice that this vote includes the survey of Hudson bay. What work is being done in that way at Hudson bay, and what is in prospect?


John Douglas Hazen: Survey work has been carried on at Hudson bay for the last four years, and charts have been published of the waters that have to be navigated by ships passing in and out of the straits and the bay. I have not the reports here, showing exactly what has been done.


Frank Oliver: I did not wish to know the details. This work is in relation to the navigation of the bay and the straits?


John Douglas Hazen: That is entirely what it is for.


Frank Oliver: Has the work been carried towards what one might call completion? Of course, I realize that work of this kind is never completed; but has it been completed so far as regards the laying down of a well-defined ship route to Port Nelson through the straits?


John Douglas Hazen: I believe that practically all that is required in that way for the present has been done. There is no necessity of having any more work of this nature done at Hudson bay this year.


Frank Oliver: That is to say, that if the railroad to Port Nelson were completed, the information that the department has acquired, and put into shape for use, would be sufficient for traffic purposes?


John Douglas Hazen: Charts showing the depth
of water and other things necessary for navigators to know ha^e been made, and can be obtained by every shipmaster.


William Pugsley: The Estimate is a bit
misleading. [DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: I think it is myself. However, that is the way it has always been worded.


William Pugsley: The phrase " including
the survey of Hudson bay " strikes the fancy of a good many of us who would like to see improvements in Hudson bay, but apparently this vote is for the survey of waters that have been navigated and surveyed for many years. In that case, I think the work could stand for this year without any injury to the public service. It would be a different matter if it was for work in connection with the opening of the railway.


John Douglas Hazen: I agree that it is a little
misleading, and I am willing to strike out those words.


Frank Oliver: i No part of this sum is intended for Hudson bay this coming year?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Frank Oliver: Where will the $340,000
be expended?


John Douglas Hazen: On the Atlantic coast, in
the bay of Fundy, lake Superior and on the Pacific coast, and a small sum for what are known as automatic gauges.	.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Why is the work not to be gone on with in Hudson bay?


John Douglas Hazen: We are not making any
further surveys there this year, because the necessary charts have already been prepared for the use of navigators.


William Pugsley: I do not want to take advantage of a thin House, but some hon. gentlemen in this House are strongly of the opinion that .this vote ought to be reduced.


John Douglas Hazen: I think the perseverance of my hon. friend ought to be rewarded, so I move that this vote be reduced by the sum of $50,000.


William Pugsley: That forms only a small part of the $29,000,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
['That forms only a small part of the $29,000,000.']
Frank Oliver: In stress of weather a vessel might desire to seek shelter in Churchill harbour. Has a chart been made of the route to Churchill, and is it available?


John Douglas Hazen: We have published one chart of Churchill, and three of Nelson: one of the inside, one of the outside, and one of the approaches. The chart of Churchill has already been published.


Frank Oliver: Has the survey that has been made any relation to the putting up of lights or buoys as aids to navigation?


John Douglas Hazen: Aids to navigation fall
within the Marine and Fisheries Department, but I might say that the Marine and Fishery Department has obtained information with regard to the placing of lights from those who have been on the Hydrographic Survey. The placing of lights of course depends, to some extent, on the waters the steamers have to pass through1.
At six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE}-THIRD READINGS.
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Bill No. 8, respecting the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company -Mr. Morphy-in committee.
On section 5-consent of municipalities:
Frank Oliver: Is this the Bill that was opposed so strongly by the member for East Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong)?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, these two Bills, Nos. 8 and 24, are the ones.


Frank Oliver: I hope he is in good health?


John Dowsley Reid: Oh, yes, he is in good health.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 24, respecting the Toronto, Niagara and Western Railway Company-Mr. Morphy-in committee.
On section 1-short title:
Mr. BUCHANAN:: We have heard a good deal in committee and in the House about the competition that these roads would exercise as against a project of the province of Ontario. It is my view that where additional transportation facilities are to be afforded they should be given in the newer parts of Canada, where railroad facilities are badly needed, rather than in those parts of Ontario and the eastern provinces where adequate transportation facilities are already provided. The Canadian Northern Railway, the promoters of which are back of the Bills which are before the committee, was intended primarily as a colonisation road to serve Western Canada. In my constituency they have charters for roads which have not been built, although people [DOT]have been attracted to those districts in anticipation of railway facilities being provided. Many of the people are still miles away from transportation facilities, waiting for the Canadian Northern Railway Company to construct lines in that section of the country. It is my view that they should build lines to serve those districts before they attempt to compete in districts in the province of Ontario which are already fairly well supplied with transportation facilities. I hope

that under the amendment to the Railway Act these roads will not be given the opportunity to spend money in constructing competitive lines in districts like the Niagara peninsula, and that their efforts will be concentrated in providing roads in those districts where transportation facilities are absolutely needed. Many complaints are heard about the need of transportation facilities in Western Canada. During the last year there was an extremely heavy crop, and in the country north of Medicine Hat, where a charter has been granted for the construction of a Canadian Northern line, the farmers had to draw their grain 70 or 80 miles to the nearest station. Although the charter for this Canadian Northern line has been granted, and although the bonds have been guaranteed by the provincial Government, nothing is being done. There is another section of country south of Medicine Hat where a Canadian Northern line has been projected, and nothing is being done. Yet the Canadian Northern Railway Company ask this Parliament for the privilege of constructing a railroad in a -district which is already well supplied with transportation facilities. I am not opposing the Bill, but I want to place my views on record in this regard. I am not in sympathy with the Mackenzie and Mann interests attempting to construct a line in a province already supplied with railroads, especially in competition with the HydroElectric project of the province of Ontario. I do not think that we should interfere with the desires of the people of the province of Ontario in that respect. Their legislature has unanimously declared that they want these bills defeated, that they want to have an opportunity of constructing radial lines in that province. In my opinion, they should be allowed to do that, and these particular interests should devote their attention to the needs of districts that are not already supplied with transportation facilities.


John Dowsley Reid: There is no difference of
opinion between the hon. member and myself as to the necessity for supplying the different parts of the country with railways. I agree absolutely that there should be no duplicating of railways, and, in addition, that running rights should be granted over an existing railway to a new railway in order to avoid the unnecessary expense of constructing a new line. The Canadian Northern railway is a system composed

of about 10,000 miles of railway, probably 7,000 of that being in Western Canada. The hon. member was not in the House when certain legislation went through; but let me say to him, as a member in this House at the time that legislation was passed, that I think the mistake that was made was this. The Canadian Northern railway was organized in Western Canada, being entirely a Western Canada scheme. The company built branch lines of railway throughout Western Canada, and their eastern terminus was to be Fort William and Port Arthur.' That was the point they expected to reach, and they built their road to that point. Then the Grand Trunk Railway Company realized the great opportunities for railway development in the great Northwest and wished to enter that field. Legislation was introduced in this House providing for a railway, under the control of the Grand Trunk Railway Company, from North Bay to Winnipeg and through to Prince Rupert. There is no doubt that the Canadian Northern Railway Company did its best to arrange with the Government of the day that one line of railway should be built from North Bay to Fort William or to Winnipeg, and then that the Grand Trunk Railway Company should take over the Canadian Northern system and operate its western branches, instead of building a line from North Bay to Winnipeg and through to the West, closely parallelling the Canadian Northern railway and the Canadian Pacific railway. The Canadian Northern Railway Company urged on the Government that if the Grand Trunk would take over their system in the West, a great and unnecessary expenditure of money would be avoided. Another suggestion was that one railway should be built from North Bay to Winnipeg for the common use of all lines. That arrangement, of course, was not made, with the result that an agreement was made under which the Grand Trunk Pacific railway was built from Moncton through to Prince Rupert. What was the result of that? The Canadian Northern railway had a very extensive system of branch lines throughout the West. I must admit that those lines were not as well built as the Grand Trunk .Pacific and the Canadian Pacific railway, many of them being colonization roads, but^yet they were of great advantage to that country and carried out an immense quantity of grain to Fort William and Port Arthur. But when the Canadian

Northern railway got the grain to Port Arthur, what were they to do with it? During the summer season they could get it out 'by boat, but in winter their whole system from Fort William through the West was tied up from the 1st of December until the 1st of May, or the opening of navigation. If they wished to send out their grain by rail during the winter season, they were at the -mercy of the other two railways. That is the position they took with the late Government, and our predecessors then gave the Canadian Northern Railway a charter to build from Fort William and Port Arthur to the East, instead of insisting on their acquiring running rights over the Canadian Pacific railway or the Grand Trunk Pacific from Port Arthur to the East. They gave them a charter and advanced, I think, $30,000,000 in order to start the construction of their railway from Port Arthur to Ottawa. When the present Government came into power, we found that the money 'had been arranged for and the railway commenced, so that its construction could not be stopped.
The Canadian Northern Railway Company were in a similar position in reference to a western outlet to the Pacific ocean. The Government authorized and assisted in the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific through to the Pacific coast, and the -Canadian Northern system was at the mercy of the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Pacific Railway in respect to through western traffic, just as it was in respect to shipments from Fort William and Port Arthur to the East. When this Government came into power, we found the Canadian Northern system with a railway not built but under way. Enormous amounts of money had been granted by the Government, and we had no alternative but to see that system completed. When the Canadian Northern got down to Toronto with freight from Vancouver, say through freight from the Orient, they had no means of getting that through freight, which might be Touted to New York or the West Indies, from 'Toronto t-o Buffalo to hand it over to the American roads. They have no American connection to-day, and therefore they are trying to make this short connection between Toronto and Buffalo in order to have a complete system.


Frank Oliver: -Surely these Bills are not for the purpose of allowing this road to go into the United States?


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly. These Bills are to allow a connection between Canada and the United States, such as all transcontinental railways have. Surely the hon. member for Edmonton does not mean to say that a railway like the Canadian Pacific railway, running from Vancouver to St. John, or a railway like the Grand Trunk Pacific, running from Prince Rupert to Halifax, should not be allowed to have any connection with American roads wherever there is interchangeable freight? Surely the hon. member must admit that a road carrying freight sent from the Orient through our own Canadian territory should have some way of getting out to New York if the cargo is consigned to New York. That is what I mean by having an American connection. They have none now.
' Mr. OLIVER: I thought it was the fixed policy of this Government not to permit Canadian freight to be diverted to the United States.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member knows that this is not diverted. I stated that the freight was consigned to New.York; that is why this connection was asked for. The only difference of opinion is that some say that this portion of the railway, fifty or sixty miles in extent, could be built by the Hydro-Electric and operated by them. I was one of those who differed from that view. The Hydro-Electric could operate radial lines, but this railway will have a lot of freight traffic. Radial lines are more for rural districts and city districts. To carry this class of freight it would be necessary to have long, heavy trains, with fifty or sixty cars. I think there should be a regular steam system. At present, between Toronto and Niagara Falls, the Canadian Pacific railway and Grand Trunk trains run over the Grand Trunk line be- ' tween Toronto and Hamilton, which is double tracked. From the information I have I think that these two railways, certainly the Grand' Trunk, are taxed to its fullest capacity at the present time. Between Hamilton and Niagara Falls there is the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo railway and the Grand Trunk, and the Canadian Pacific railway trains and those of another company run over that road. I believie there is room for another line between Toronto and Niagara Falls, and I feel satisfied that now that the matter is in the hands of the' Railway Commission, these Bills, or any other Bills that come before it in the future, will receive fair considera-

tion. If any objection is raised to the findings of the Kailway Commission there is an appeal to the Governor in Council. I would like to see this Bill go through, so that the Railway Commission can give the new line a fair trial. If it works well we will have no more trouble in the future, so far as the parallelling of railways is concerned. If it does not work satisfactorily then we can change or rescind the law.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the minister made any effort to induce this company to bring their railway to a Canadian port instead of diverting to Buffalo on the way to New York?


John Dowsley Reid: I think my hon. friend knows the situation just as well as I do. In the legislation which we put through this House while he was a member, there is a clause which provides that they must bring their freight to Montreal and Quebec in the summer, and there is an understanding that it be handed over to the Intercolonial for St. John and Halifax. It is also in the knowledge of my hon. friend that they had a line of freight steamers, some eight, ten or a dozen, and two' fine passenger steamers, running to St. John and Halifax for some years. Then there was the Uranian line. Every member knows that so far as the railway is concerned they have no American port; their ports being entirely Canadian-Montreal and Quebec in the Summer, and .St. John and Halifax in the winter. But as I stated before, this refers only to freight destined for American points, Chicago, New York, or other cities. In the case of a large railway system, such as this is, there is no doubt a large amount of inter-changeable American freight going from the main lines or branch limes to the United States, and vice versa, from' the United States to Canada. The loss of that freight w'ould, of course, be a great disadvantage to this railway.


William Ashbury Buchanan: The point I desired to make was that these railway companies should toe made, first of all, to supply the route where facilities are most needed. It is necessary in the interests of our country that these facilities should toe provided in new districts into which, people have moved, and where railways are needed to develop the country. If the people of Ontario are prepared to provide such facilities in their province, they should be allowed to' do so, but they should also allow this company to provide facilities in another 
part of the country where they are urgently needed. I did not know that the Minister of Railways was a pessimist, but he seems to be pessimistic about the railway situation in this country. It may be a gloomy situation at the present moment, when financial conditions are toad, and there is very little development going on; but
1	am an optimist, and I believe that the railways which have been constructed in this country will justify expectations as soon as immigrants begin to come as they came in the past. Why, the crop of last ye.ar could not be handled by the existing railroads; it will not toe entirely removed from the western country until the coming harvest. We have millions upon millions of acres of land in the West still to toe settled and cultivated, and when that land is .settled and cultivated railways will be absolutely needed, and they will earn profits. At the time the Canadian Pacific railway was constructed, there were criticism and doubt as to its possibilities, but history has shown that the building of that railway was warranted, and I am certain that history will show that the construction of the other railways was warranted, if we handle the situation properly. We have no adequate conception of the possibilities and prospects of western Canada. If we have a crop like that of last year for the next five or six years, the natural resources of this country will be enriched to an extent that we cannot at present estimate. The prospects of this year's crop are that while we may not have such a tremendous acreage as we had last year, there will be a great crop, and the railroads will be kept busy until 1917 or 1918 getting it out.


James Joseph Hughes: Was the Rocky Mountain section of the Canadian Northern railway started when the present Government came into office	'


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, as far as I remember,
it was.
On section 2-extension of time for construction :


Mr. BLAIN:: There is a slight change to be made in subsection b of clause 2; on page
2	of the Bill, in line 3, after the word " .authorized," the word " to " should be struck out. I move that it be struck out. It is a typographical error. I move also that in the same section, in line 5, after the word " Thorold," the words " and also " be struck out.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

On the preamble:
William Findlay Maclean: Before the preamble is adopted, I wish to say that there was a great deal of opposition in Ontario to these two Bills, especially on behalf of the Hydro-Electric Commission and the Hydro-Radial system of railways now-under construction in that province. That commission, having identified with it the municipalities and the Government of Ontario, through Sir Adam Beck and others, protested against the incorporation of these companies. Apparently a compromise has been arranged, under which the Canadian Northern Railway Company will still be able to reach the Niagara river. But the result of the opposition which was shown here by Sir Adam Beck and his friends has been effective, perhaps not to the full extent; but what Sir Adam Beck desired has been accomplished and the working out of the provisions of these two Bills is now to be in the hands of the Railway Commission, which will be tested with powder to say whether the roads are needed, to say whether joint user of existing lines will not be sufficient, and in other ways to protect the rights of the municipalities and of the Hydro-Electric Commission.
I wish just to say that in the Legislature of Ontario yesterday the Government announced that they had closed forever the use of water-powers by private corporations now- having rights to develop power, and that all the power in Ontario hereafter is to be consecrated to public use. Furthermore, it was announced that the plan of Sir Adam Beck for the development of the greatest system of water-pow'er in America was to be conducted by the people of the province, and that these powers were to be devoted to the use of the municipalities and the railways of the province. We hope that the result of the development of the wateT-powers in Ontario, especially of the Niagara river, by the Hydro-Electric Commission as a public proposition will be sufficient not only to rim all the factories, and to light all the hohses and towns in Ontario, but also to drive most of the railways of that province. This is great and progressive legislation. I have no doubt that public ownership of railways is coming in this country, and that we in the province of Ontario will be able not only to develop a system of local railways but to supply power at the cheapest possible rate for the handling of all the traffic of Ontario. There was a time not many years ago when men who advocated that were said to be visionaries. Yet it is' being
worked, to-day in Ontario, it is a success there, it has been so successful as applied to power and light that we now know that it will be successful as applied to railway traffic, and we hope and expect that it will not only be successful to the extent that we will be able, by a public-owned proposition, to develop and supply enough power to run railways in southern Ontario, but that eventually all these railways will be owned and controlled by the people of that province.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 8, respecting the Niagara, St.. Catharines and Toronto Railway 'Company -Mr. Morphy-reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 39, respecting the Governing Council of the Salvation Army in Canada, and to change the name thereof to the Governing Council of the Salvation Army, Canada East-Mr. Blain-in 'Committee.
On section 1-.name changed; rights saved:


Frank Oliver: I notice there are two Bills on the Order Paper following each other, one relating to the Salvation Army in Canada East, and the other relating to the Salvation Army in Canada West. If the mover would explain the situation in a few words as to both it would be an advantage.


Richard Blain: These Bills were introduced in the Senate and were passed in their original form. When they came to the committee of the House of Commons some objection was taken because they did not divide the country, making one jurisdiction for Eastern Canada and the other for Western Canada. The objection seemed, to be well taken, and after careful consideration on the part of the .committee and some concessions on the part of those representing the Salvation Army, the objections were met and are embodied in the Bill. The whole matter in connection with both Bills is simply one of internal government resulting from the rapidly-developing work of the Salvation Army in Eastern and Western Canada. The Salvation Army obtained an Act of incorporation some years ago, but owing to the rapid increase in the work of the society they found it almost impossible to - govern so large a corporation without a division. The Bill gives them a western board of management

and an eastern 'board of management. In the two Bills, one of which is now before the committee, that is being embodied. It is not any public concern. There is no variation from the rights of the Salvation Army and no increase of powers from those granted in the incorporation of the Army in Canada some years ago.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 40, to incorporate the Governing Council of the Salvation Army, Canada West-(Mr. Blain-reported, Tead the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 77, respecting Colonial Bank (Canada)-Mr. Middlebro-in Committee.
On section 1-incorporators:
Frank Oliver: Is this the incorporation of a new bank?


Richard Blain: It is merely an extension of time. On account o'f financial conditions, the promoters were unable, as I understand it, to raise the money, and therefore they are asking for an extension of time. The bank was incorporated.


Frank Oliver: How long ago was it incorporated?


Richard Blain: I am not quite sure, but it was a very short time ago. The Bill is in the name of the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Middlebro), and I think he is absent as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, which is sitting to-night.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-extension of time for commencing business:
Frank Oliver: Does that give an indefinite period during which the company will hold its rights subject to the granting of a certificate by the Treasury Board?


John Douglas Hazen: It extends the time for one year.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 78, respecting British Trust Company-(Mr. Morris-in Committee.
Frank Oliver: What is this Bill?


John Douglas Hazen: As the promoter is not
here, we had betteT let it stand.
9. p.m. Progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr Rhodes in the Chair.
Department of Naval Service-Radiotelegraph service-to provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations, $295,000.
['The Supplementary Estimates that we have just passed were for the past year; those for the present year have not yet been brought down. As the hon. member for Guysborough has stated,\nI was waited upon by a delegation composed of a number of leading citizens of Ottawa who were interested in this movement, and by a number of members of the House of Commons. Some information which I then asked for concerning the scope and work of the hospital has since been furnished me and I should like to say to my hon. friend that I am entirely in sympathy with the movement. The subscription asked for $5,000, is a moderate one, and I intend asking my colleagues to authorize me to include that amount in my Supplementary Estimates.']
Frank Oliver: If the minister would permit me to ask a question relating to the previous item, would he be good enough to give the House the benefit of his conclusions, based on the surveys that have been made, as to the navigability of Hudson bay and the straits, and the season during which navigation is practicable?


John Douglas Hazen: Since 1910 the Department
of the Naval Service has published in each annual report the results of observations in Hudson bay made by the officers of the survey steamer in these waters, and has also published extracts from " logs " on different vessels navigating in Hudson bay, These reports give a large amount of information as to ice conditions in the bay and in the straits, -and as to the dates of opening and closing of navigation. Any one interested in the conditions of navigation in these waters would do well to study these reports attentively.
Any conclusions as to average conditions must be based on observations extending over long series of years. The object of these Teports has been to gather together the available information, and place it before the public. Information of a similar nature, though perhaps not quite so accurate, was given by the observers attached to Commander Gordon's Expedition in 1884-86.
Some newspapers this year piade great capital out of -a few sentences contained in the last reports submitted by Mr. Anderson, but it would have been better to follow the annual reports made since 1910, so as to obtain ia better idea of average conditions which existed in different parts of the straits and of the bay, and so be able to gain a better appreciation of the conditions which exist in these waters. -
While conditions vary considerably from year to year, the following information may be of interest. Commander Gordon, as -a result of three voyages to Hudson straits in 1884-5-6, considered that for specially built vessels, fortified to meet the ice conditions, the season of navigation would be about three months, beginning in the first week

of July .and closing in the first week of October. In 1910 the C.G.S. ice breaker Stanley passed through Hudson strait between the 18th and 31st July, and encountered 200 miles of heavy drift ice from Cape Prince of Wales to Digges Island; and the same extent of heavy drift ice was encountered in Hudson bay. On the return trip, about the 30th July, a few hours after leaving Port Nelson, the heaviest ice yet encountered was entered and proved to be about 90 miles across. No exact information is available as to the close of navigation in that year, but the officer at Eric Cove estimated that a vessel might have passed through the straits on the 15th November.
In 1911 the first ship, the sealer Beothic, passed through Hudson strait between the 25th and 29th July, meeting extensive fields of winter and Arctic ice southeast from Big island. The passage after this was fairly open, but ice fields were noticed to the south in Hudson bay. The Acadia crossed Hudson bay, homeward, about the end of September without noticing any field ice and cleared Cape Cliidley on October'10th with no ice in sight.
In 1912 the first ship, the sealer Beothic, passed through Hudson straits between the 15th and 20th July and met considerable drift ice. The last ship passed out between the 2nd and 6th November, with no ice in sight. Ships navigating this region during the latter part of July reported that drift ice was encountered, in some eases extremely heavy and closely packed. On the 2nd August the Minto reported a field of ice a couple of miles across off cape Prince of Wales. Extensive ice fields were reported in Hudson bay to the south. Fox channel ice was reported at the west entrance of the strait on the 25th October.
In 1913 the first steamer, the sealer Bona-venture, entered Hudson strait on the 16th July, arriving at Port Nelson on the 6th August, having met with very heavy ice on the trip. Extensive ice fields were reported in Hudson strait on the 8th August by the sealer Naseopie and scattered ice fields by the sealer Bonaventure on the 16th August. The Naseopie reported extensive ice fields off Mansel and Digges islands on the 1st October, requiring considerable bunting to force a passage. On the 22nd October the Acadia found the passage at the west entrance to the straits practically closed by heavy ice, and, though specially strengthened, sustained considerable damage forcing a way through. The tramp steamer Alette met with ice north of Mansel island
on the 10th October, and stove in her bow. She returned to Port Nelson in a sinking condition and was finally beached.
In 1914 the first ship, the sealer Bonaventure, parsed through Hudson strait between the 1st and 8th August, and the last ship, the Bonaventure, passed out of the strait on the 22nd October.
From these extracts it might seem that specially constructed vessels can navigate the Hudson during probably three months of each year, the exact dates of opening and closing of navigation varying considerably.
As a result of the work accomplished by the Hydrographic Survey of late years, the charts of Hudson bay have been very considerably improved and special charts have been issued showing Port Churchill, Port Nelson and its approaches and various harbours which are available for refuge to Hudson straits.
It has been found that good water is available in Hudson straits and that its navigation presents no particular difficulties apart from the ice. The observations taken show that the magnetic compass is very unreliable in various parts of Hudson bay, and that captains of vessels must rely largely on observations to direct their ships in safety. By the aid of the published charts both Churchill and Nelson can be approached in safety and the Department of Marine has installed a number qf aids to navigation which have improved conditions in these waters very considerably. A wireless station is in operation at Port Nelson, which communicates with ships properly equipped and is of valuable assistance in that vicinity. It is proposed to erect other wireless stations in Hudson straits so as to afford continuous communication to vessels in these waters.


William Pugsley: In addition to the wireless stations which the department has erected and is maintaining, are there not a number of wireless stations which are owned by one of the companies?


John Douglas Hazen: Most of the stations are owned and managed by the Government, but a number of them, while owned by the Government, are operated by the MaT-coni Company.


William Pugsley: By whom is the wireless station on Partridge Island, St. John, owned?


John Douglas Hazen: That is owned by the Government; it is one of the stations

operated by the Marconi Company. At the time these contracts were made some years ago, I fancy that the organization of the department having charge of the wireless telegraphy was not as good as its development has since made it. It was thought better at that time to put these stations under the operation of the Marconi Company, and contracts with respect to a number of stations owned by the Government were made in that way.


William Pugsley: Can the minister tell me the name of the operator at that station? .


John Douglas Hazen: No, he is an employee of the Marconi Company.


William Pugsley: The Government should have some control over the wireless station at a seaport like St. John, through which, under the direction of the Department of Naval Service, many thousands of tons of freight go forward for the use of the allied armies.


John Douglas Hazen: We have control, but the contract for the operation is with the Marconi Company.


William Pugsley: Surely the minister ought to know who the operator is. I am told that he is a German.


John Douglas Hazen: I should think that the hon. gentleman is wrong.


William Pugsley: Perhaps he is one of the Germans who would not do anything wrong without first letting the Government know.


John Douglas Hazen: The Superintendent of
Wireless Telegraphy tells me that the operator there is a Newfoundlander, and that his name is Myrick.


William Pugsley: I have been told that he is a German, though that may not be correct. The minister has several censors on the island.


John Douglas Hazen: They are under the Militia Department.


William Pugsley: There is al so a lawyer, an insurance agent, and two other gentlemen.


John Douglas Hazen: Three altogether.


William Pugsley: I suppose the operator
would not send any message through without telling them the contents of it. Certainly none of these gentlemen would know anything about wireless telegraphy. I would like the minister to make some inquiries. I have been told by gentlemen

wlio profess to know that the operator is a German.


John Douglas Hazen: The Superintendent of
Wireless Telegraphy tells me that there is not the slightest foundation for any such belief.


William Pugsley: I do not mean that he came direct from Germany.


John Douglas Hazen: The superintendent says
that the operator was born of British parents.


William Pugsley: I am glad to be informed that that is the case.


James Joseph Hughes: The report that the minister read said that ships specially constructed might be able to navigate Hudson straits and Hudson bay two or three months of the year. What would " specially constructed " mean? Would it mean greater strength or larger coal bunkers?


John Douglas Hazen: It would mean ships more strongly constructed I suppose.


James Joseph Hughes: In the nature of icebreakers?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


James Joseph Hughes: WTould such vessels be
able to compete with ordinary ships during the other nine or ten months of the year?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know any reason why they should not.


James Joseph Hughes: If you give them greater strength or greater bunker capacity you take away from cargo space and cargo space is what counts.


John Douglas Hazen: They do not need greater
bunker space I understand.


William Pugsley: The minister has no
doubt, then, to summarize the report, as to the practicability of the Hudson bay route?


John Douglas Hazen: The reports show that the seasons vary. In some years there is a longer period of navigation than in others, and the dates of opening and closing of navigation vary. Summarizing the, whole thing, I think it is pretty clear from all these reports that there has not been a year when navigation was not reasonably practicable for a period of from two or three months. That is what the reports of observers who have been there, surveyors and others, would lead one to conclude.


William Pugsley: That is about the time of navigation at Archangel, is it not?


John Douglas Hazen: At Archangel, I think, it is a little longer.


John Howard Sinclair: Did the minister take any advice from shipping people in regard to the practicability of navigation o.f Hudson, bay? I have heard a great many people who are accustomed to navigating the northern waters condemn the idea, and I should suppose that people having experience of that kind would be the best people for the minister to go to t-o find out what the chances of navigation in those waters are. There are many traders on the coasts of Canada who have for many years gone to the northern waters in the summer, and they must know more about the navigation there than people who- go up for a summer's trip, like the commanders of these steamers. Has the minister any scheme for establishing a fleet of ships to perform the service on the Hudson bay route after the railway' is completed, or does he expect to depend on private enterprise altogether for the providing of the ships? It will be of no use to have a railway to Hudson bay unless some one will provide ships to carry the cargoes to the market. If we are going to construct the road, it is of the greatest importance that we should look into, that question and see what is to happen when we have completed the road. We all want to make it a success, after putting our money into it.


John Douglas Hazen: I explained that the conclusion I came to is based on the reports of men who have been sent there to make examinations, and also on the logs of vessels that have gone in and out of Hudson bay. That is the best evidence that can be obtained. The hon. gentleman is right in saying that there are many people who think that from a commercial standpoint the project is not practicable. Time will tell whether that is the case or not. The members of this House, irrespective of party, evidently thought that the scheme was practicable, because both parties were pledged up to the hilt to build the Hudson Bay railway. Both parties agreed to it. I do not believe that any policy would appeal so strongly to men of the intelligence of the members of this House unless there was merit back of it. But there are, of course, people who are doubtful about all new enterprises, even in a country more or less known. It is well known.that it was predicted 50 or 60 years ago that railways
could not be successful in Canada because they could not be operated during the winter. That was said during the building of the Grand Trunk railway, by m'en of position and ordinary common sense in this country. The same thing has been said in respect of other progressive enterprises,. Something similar was said about the Canadian Pacific railway owing to the difficulties of construction in the mountain section, and I hope it will he found when this railway is built and the terminal facilities provided for grain, that a great deal o>f grain from the West will find its way to Europe by Hudson bay.
My bom. friend has referred to the need of steamers to carry the products away.
I concur in his statement, but I am hopeful that there will be people who, from a commercial standpoint, will find, it to their < interest, perhaps with some Government assistance, to put on vessels to carry wheat from Hudson bay; and I am sure that is a matter to which every attention will be paid by the Railway Department, which is to oper-ate the railway and will be responsible in that connection.


James Joseph Hughes: In the case of ail of these large enterprises to which the minister has alluded, engineers and men who made reports upon the project always estimated them at very much less than the final cost. It looks as if when men were sent out especially to make reports on such matters, they always looked upon the favourable side. 1 have had opportunity of speaking with some men who have acted as officers on the boats that went into Hudson bay, but whose duty was not to report, and the opinion I have heard expressed by them is that it is practically impossible to make a harbour at Port Nelson; that the sandbar there is neatly three miles in width, and that it shifts every summer, and may shift half a mile in 21 hours. Comparing it with Liverpool, where the sandbar is only a cable length in breadth, that would seem to present a very serious obstacle. At Liverpool they have three dredges at work night and day, one of them the most powerful in the world; and it is difficult for them to make navigation practicable.


John Douglas Hazen: Still, they have made a great harbour there by artificial 'means.


James Joseph Hughes: Because the trade there warrants it. If anything like the same trade could be developed a.t Port Nelson, perhaps such an expenditure would be war-

ranted there too; but if the statements I have heard are correct, and anything like the same proportion of dredging would be required, it would take a fleet of 50 or 60 dredges, working constantly, to keep the channel open. This information I have received from deep-sea captains who have had experience there, and if there is anything in their reports it is a serious condition of affairs.


William Pugsley: I have understood that when the 'bon. 'member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) was Minister of Railways, he had a very careful examination made of the relative merits of Fort Churchill and Port Nelson, and the report of the engineer, Mr. Armstrong, I think it was, was very strongly in favour of Port Nelson as the terminus. I have always understood that while there is a sandbar there and difficulty about the channel, that is the port to which the sea captains gave preference. They did not go into Port Nelson, but anchored outside, and the chief engineer found another and a good channel which would be more easily navigated, and where comparatively little dredging work would require to be done. That is what I understood. We all know, too, that, after the present Minister of Railways took office, he visited Hudson bay, and inspected both Port Nelson and Fort Churchill with a view to exercising his own judgment upon the decision which the former
10 p.m. Minister of Railways had reached, and he came to the same conclusion as the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), that there would be no serious difficulty in approaching Port Nelson, and that a good harbour could be secured there.
Mr. HAZE'iN: Tire Hydrographic Survey ship went into Port Nelson and marked the channel with byoys, and I am told that other ships have now no trouble.


William Pugsley: 
John Douglas Hazen: Speaking of the navigation of the St. Lawrence river within the past thirty years, I was told that a man as well informed as the late Mr. Gladstone, speaking to a member of the Canadian Government in London when he was Colonial Secretary, expressed his regret that the dangers of navigation of the St. Lawrence was so great that that river could never become a successful route for commercial and passenger -ships. As my hon. friend has said, in the early days the St. Lawrence was looked upon by many people as an almost impossible route, and yet to-day it is one^of the grea-t avenues of commerce in the world.


Mr. H. BOULAY (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, 1 would like to ask the hon. minister whether the censors and code readers that were on duty last year at Father Point were employed by the Department of Marine?


John Douglas Hazen: They were employed by the Department of Militia, not by the Department of Marine.


Frank Oliver: What does it cost to establish a wireless station such as there is at Port Nelson?
Mr. HAZE'N:	The cost of establishing
the station at Port Nelson, which was for the Department of Railways and Canals, was about $50,000. Of course, it would be one of the most expensive places in Canada at which to erect such a station, owing to the difficulties of, getting materials, etc.


Frank Oliver: What I had in mind was this:	the north country down the Mackenzie river, is a country of magnificent distances and of sparse population. At the present time, there is no very great development there, but there are possibilities of development which would be aided by the establishment of telegraphic communication. In Alaska, the United States Government has seen fit to establish a wireless telegraphic system in preference to the wire system of telegraphy. I quite appreciate the fact that the present is not an opportune time for the Government to undertake new expenditures, but I would like to know for my own information, how the cost of establishing communication throughout that vast stretch of country by a series of wireless stations would compare with the cost of establishing and maintaining a wire system.


John Douglas Hazen: Is there a wire telegraph
system there now?
Mr, OLIVER:	Yes, the telegraph line
runs to Fort McMurray on the Athabaska. The next point of importance is Fort Smith at the rapids on the Great Slave river, about 300 miles north of Fort McMurray. The next important point is Fort Resolution, about 100 miles north of Fort Smith, on the shore of the Great Slave lake. North of that, is Fort Simpson, and north of that, Hersehel island That is a distance of about 2,000 miles from Edmonton, or about 1,500 or 1,800 miles from Fort McMurray. Would it be cheaper to establish wireless communication with Hersehel island than communication by wire?


John Douglas Hazen: I hardly know which would be cheaper. In a district, with settlements at different points, a wire system would be better. You could have telegraph stations anywhere, whereas you could not have them with a wireless system. If it is a country that is growing, with communities springing up, a wire system would be better for ordinary commercial purposes. Of course,
the wireless telegraphic system which the Department of Marine administers is intended to aid navigation. We have stations along the Atlantic coast, up the- St. I.awrence, on the shores of the Great Lakes, and on the Pacific coast, extending from Victoria to the north, but they are all for the purpose of aiding navigation, and a very important aid they are. To my mind, wireless telegraphy is going to render safe the navigation of Hudson straits, and will be of greater advantage thpn lighthouses along that route, because the operatives will be able to convey information to the , ships going up and down as to the state of the ice and that sort of thing. It will be of tremendous advantage to navigation.


John Howard Sinclair: Have we any stations
on the Hudson bay besides that at Port Nelson?


John Douglas Hazen: We have a station at Port Nelson, and we are going to establish one on the Hudson straits, at Mansel island, which will communicate with vessels going up and down the straits.


Frank Oliver: Are these two stations in immediate prospect?


John Douglas Hazen: There is one at Port Nelson now.


Frank Oliver: But at Mansel island.


John Douglas Hazen: We have made a commencement at Mansel island j we have the foundations in there now.


Frank Oliver: Is there anything in prospect at the eastern entrance of the straits?


John Douglas Hazen: The plan contemplates putting one at the eastern entrance of the straits at a place called Button island.
Tidal service-to provide for maintenance of tidal stations and surveying steamers, $35,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister tell
us if any charts are being made by this staff in the tidal service?


John Douglas Hazen: No, the charts are made
by the staff of the Hydrographic Survey. This is the tidal service under the direction of which the tide tables are issued. This item provides for the maintenance of tidal stations on the eastern and Pacific coasts, the salaries of the observers, and equipment at the tidal stations for the summer stations, the preparation, printing and publication of tide tables for the two coasts and Hudson bay, including complete and abridged editions. We have a



very great demand for these tide tables among the people who are living along the coast and who want absolutely accurate information as to what the tides are from day to day.


John Howard Sinclair: I presume they do something more than make tide tables, because that could' be done in the office of the minister. What actual work is the staff doing on the ground? Do they take soundings or make any explorations?


John Douglas Hazen: This is for the maintenance of the principal tidal stations in Eastern Canada and on the Pacific coast throughout the year, and the salaries of observers. Further tidal observations in the gulf of St. Lawrence and the bay of Fundy and also in British Columbia and on Hudson bay are made at tidal stations which are erected for the summer season. Tidal information is also obtained from other surveys, supplied with an outfit of instruments; thus also saving much expense to them. The results deduced from these observations improve the accuracy and scope of the tide tables which is a benefit to the commerce of the country. Observations are to be continued in the gut of Canso; and further observations of the currents in straits on the Pacific coast are to be obtained. Annual tide tables are prepared for Eastern Canada, for the Pacific coast and for Hudson bay. In addition to these complete tables, the following abridged editions are published in pocket size: Quebec and Father Point with data for the St. Lawrence; St. John, N.B., and the bay of Fundy; Vancouver and gulf of Georgia, With data for the narrows and passes of southern British Columbia. All these are widely distributed, amounting to 42,000 copies. In addition to the above, much information, especially on tide levels, is furnished to other departments, which saves them considerable expense, while only represented by extra work without expenditure in this survey. The information is published in the Tide Tables and in the Notices to Mariners which are issued from time.to time. In some years there are pamphlets published. Mr. Bell Dawson has been in charge of the service for a good many years.


John Howard Sinclair: I should think the
direction of currents going into bays or through straits would be shown best on a charter or on a map.


John Douglas Hazen: These are all put on charts which are published by the Hydrographic Survey.


John Howard Sinclair: They are only shown on the charts of the Hydrographic Survey?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, there is a plan showing the direction of the currents, and many of these charts are published by the Hydrographic Survey.


John Howard Sinclair: What new charts did the Hydrographic Survey produce last year?


John Douglas Hazen: The charts issued during the year were the following:
No. 52, Lake St. Francis, Coteau Landing to Lancaster.
No. 406, Cape Tatnam to Port Nelson.
No. 105, Jackfish bay.
The following new editions were issued:
No. 10, Foot of lake St. Peter.
No. 1, Montreal to Longue Pointe.
No. 14, Batiscan to Cap Levrard.
No. 7a, Berthierville to lake St. Peter.
. No. 302, Digby island to Kennedy island ( Chatham sound).
No. 301, Prince Rupert harbour.
No. 12, Becancour to Champlain.
No.	3, He a. l'Aigle to lie Marie.
No.	4, He Marie to foot of He Bouchard.
No. 5, He Bouchard to lie St. Ours.
No 11 Three Rivers to Becancour.
No! 15, Cap Levrard to Ste. Emmelie.
Patrol of the northern waters of Canada, $50,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is for the Stefansson
expedition.	\


Frank Oliver: This relates only to the Stefansson expedition?


John Douglas Hazen: It relates only to the
Stefansson expedition. We will have another vote in the Supplementaries which will wind it up, because the party will be coming out next year. The total estimate' of the expenditure is as follows:
Steamer Alaska..	. .
Steamer Mary Sachs. .
General accounts, scientific staff, and miscellaneous expenses



[Stage Direction]
part of the British Empire. From a point twenty miWs inland observations taken showed that the land' was mountainous, some of the peaks appearing fifty miles distant. Careful investigation for a distance of twenty miles to the west was made, and observations were taken from high points. Mountains, appearing blue in the distance, were seen. The eastern and western extremities of the land were not located. The coast line examined runs north of northwest. Game was found to he plentiful, seals, caribou, wolves, foxes, lemings, geese, and many other varieties of Arctic animals having been seen.
Owing to the lateness of the season the party were obliged to return to Cape Kel-lett. They set out on the 22nd June, following the east coast of Prince Patrick island, and arrived at Kellett on the 8th August, 1915.
Mr. Stefansson purchased the schooner Polar Bear for the sum of $20,000. This vessel came into Kellett in the summer of 1915. Its services were urgently required for carrying out the work of the expedition.
Mr. Stefansson proceeded from Kellett to Herschell island, from which point he forwarded to the Department of the Naval Service reports of the operations of the northern division. He then returned to Kellett to prepare for the work of the expedition for the winter 1915-16.
During the season 1915-16 it is proposed to establish a .more northerly base at Cape McClure, on the north coast of Banks land, or, if possible, at a suitable point on Prince Patrick island, whence expeditions for the exploration of Beaufort sea and the newly discovered land will be carried out between. February and. August, 1916.
The southern party of the expedition have been carrying on explorations most successfully during the season 1914-15, between Cape Parry and Kent peninsula, on the north coast of Canada, from a new base near Cookburn point, on the mainland on the south side of Dolphin and Union straits, established m the summer of 1914.
The southern division of the expedition will continue to carry on operations from the same base during the coming season.
Ice conditions on the north coast of Canada were favourable during the past season. The sea was clear of ice early in August, and did not freeze up until late in September.
The health of the expedition was reported as being excellent. Since the beginning of
£,\Ir. Hazen.]
the expedition only two members of the southern division have died (E. Norem, insanity, and D. W. Blue, scurvy). The members of the northern division who lost their lives have already been mentioned.
Frank Oliver: When is the expedition supposed to conclude its work?


John Douglas Hazen: At the end of next season they conclude. They ought to be out next spring.


Frank Oliver: And that is as far as the Government contemplate carrying on the work ?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we do not contemplate going any further.	.
Life-saving stations, including rewards for saving life, $125,400.


John Douglas Hazen: The summary of this proposed expenditure is this: For maintenance, the existing stations in British Columbia, $23,200; Ontario, $27,500; New Brunswick, $10,000; Nova Scotia, $20,700; Quebec, $500; Prince Edward Island, $2,600; general account, $10,900. It is also proposed to put up a new building which is necessary at Point Pelee in Ontario and there will have to be some general expenditure for new boats and alterations to buildings amounting to $20,000.
Mr. ,H. BOULAY: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I think, once before, last year, I called the attention of the Minister of Marine to the importance of establishing a life-saving station in the lower St. Lawrence. All along the coast from Gaspe to Rimouski, there is practically no boat that may be any help in a shipwreck occurring in that part of the river.
I am aware that at Rimouski the Eureka and the Lady Evelyn are often taken out to shipwrecks; but from Rimouski to Gaspe, there is no life-saving station.
While discussing this item, I recall stating last year that the dangers in the navigation of the St. Lawrence could be avoided by changing the system now followed in taking on and off pilots at Father Point. 1 often wonder why it is there are not more accidents occurring at that spot while the present system of taking pilots on and off the steamers is in force. In foggy weather, the steamers coming up know where they have to go at Father Point to get their pilots. Those that go down the river go the same way and reach as close to the shore as possible. In a deep fog, there could easily be a collision; that is how the disas-

ter to the Empress of Ireland was brought about.
I believe the system should be changed and pilots should not be taken on at the same point as where they are taken off. At Matane there is a splendid place for taking off pilots, while they could board the steamer at Father Point. Of course, to carry that out the dredging of the river at Matane would be required, as well as the building of a breakwater; but I believe that such a system would do away with any danger of accident.
I gave a good deal of thought to the matter, and I know that numerous accidents may happen oh account of the pilots being let off at the same place they are taken on. Of course, I know that in clear weather, the vessels can easily avoid one another; but in a fog, it is sometimes impossible to see far enough ahead to prevent collisions.
I suggest to the minister that he consider that question seriously. I am not a seaman and may be astray in my views, but I do certainly think that the subject is worthy of consideration.
I have been pointing out to the minister the desirability of a life saving station near Father Point, and of a change in the system of taking on and putting off the pilots in the St. Lawrerfce so as to avoid the danger of a collision. I hope the minister will give this matter his serious consideration after reading my remarks in Hansard to-morrow.


John Douglas Hazen: While I was not -able to
follow my hon. friend as well as I should have liked, I shall have very great pleasure in reading his remarks in Hansard to-morrow. The matter of a life saving station near Father Point has been considered ,by the department, and the officials who are specially charged with the carrying on of this work say that during the season of navigation there are almost always two boats at Rimouski with steam up: the Eureka, a pilot boat, and the Lady Evelyn, which carries the mail to and from the trans-Atlantic steamers. These are both Government boats; their crews are paid by the Government, and are quite as efficient as any life s-aving crew. As these boats have steam up all the time my officials do not see the necessity of a life saving station at that point. I agree entirely with what my hon. friend says about the system of taking on and putting off the pilots. We have considered this matter before, and have come to the conclusion that a change
in the system is desirable. In order to carry out the system suggested by my hon. friend, we shall have to have a newer and more modern boat, and we were thinking of obtaining a boat of that sort just before war broke out. But as it would cost us between $180,000 and $200,000 we have hesitated about buying it under existing conditions. I entirely agree that the system suggested by my hon. friend would avoid the danger of collision by the boats crossing one another, and it is only because we do* not wish to embark on anything but absolutely necessary expenditures at this time that we have not purchased a boat and adopted the system.


James Joseph Hughes: Whan the minister's Estimates were up a few weeks ago he said he would see whether anything could be done to induce the. coal companies to give cargoes to small sailing, vessels. , If something of the sort is not done, -certain sections of the country which have not railway communication will be without coal this year.


John Douglas Hazen: Under present conditions, with the shortage of tonnage, small sailing vessels -should h-ave plenty of chances to get into the docks and take on a cargo of coal. I would suggest that, as the coal mines are owned by the Government of Nova S-cotia, they might be in a better position than we are to do something in this direction.
I


James Joseph Hughes: A similar condition,
though not -so acute, existed some years ago. I think it was Mr. Fielding who took the m-atter up with the coal companies, and for a few years after they did better, but the situation is again becoming acute; for instance, in the Magdalen Islands and certain portions of Prince Edward Island. There is always a slack period in the -summer months during which these sailing vessels would carry coal if they had not to wait two or three weeks at the docks to get a cargo.


John Douglas Hazen: I should think any vessel
could get a cargo now.


James Joseph Hughes: I was speaking of next
summer. Perhaps the minister could make some inquiries of the coal companies.


John Douglas Hazen: We have done so. But
the difficulty is that the larger vessels get into the docks, and. the smaller vessels are kept waiting until they are loaded. I am told that at one time the Dominion Coal

Company built a dock for the accommodation of small vessels.


James Joseph Hughes: I was speaking of Pictou.


John Douglas Hazen: I was speaking of Sydney. I did not know there was the same difficulty at Pictou; but with the shortage of tonnage this year, I think small vessels should have no trouble in getting a cargo.


James Joseph Hughes: The trouble is that while the small vessels are waiting for a big steamer to leave the dock, another steameT comes in and then perhaps another, and the small vessels have to wait till they are all loaded.


John Douglas Hazen: The Government cannot
control that sort of thing very well.


James Joseph Hughes: Except by advice.


John Douglas Hazen: I think the only way would be to have a special dock for these small vessels. I understand the Dominion Coal Company provided that accommodation at one time.


James Joseph Hughes: Their coal is not generally used for domestic purposes, but the coal from Pictou and Inverness mines.
Naval Service-patrol of the Northern waters of Canada-further amount required, $35,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This amount is to provide for certain unforeseen expenditures in connection with the purchase of the Polar Bear, which cost $20,000, and the charter of the Polar Bear at one time at a cost of $4,000. It covers also provisions Mr. Stefansson had to purchase. This $35,000 will clean everything up.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the Polar Bear a new
boat?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not ;think it was a new boat. It had been in the whaling trade for some time before Stefansson bought it.	\


John Howard Sinclair: Has the minister a description of the vessel ?


John Douglas Hazen: No, 'but I am told that she is a staunch, strong vessel. The Karluk, hon. gentlemen willremember, was jammed in the ice and another vessel had to be purchased.
Fisheries

to provide for the expenses of investigating; claims for compensation under the Pelagic Sealing Treaty-further amount required, $4,100.


John Douglas Hazen: This winds up the cost of the pelagic sealing investigation. About

1,600 claims far damages were filed against the Government by people who had been engaged in the sealing business and who claimed that they were entitled to damages because of the treaty that was entered into a few years ago under which pelagic sealing was entirely abolished. Mr. Justice Audette, of the Exchequer Court, was appointed to hear the claims and report upon them. The amount of the claims filed aggregated	$9,200,000. Most	of the
claimants were represented by counsel, and the investigation was a very long one. Judge Audette had to hold court for lengthened periods at Victoria; once he went to Halifax, where there were a few claimants. In his report Judge Audette finds that $61,000, in round figures, should be paid to different claimants.


William Pugsley: What is the total cost of this investigation?


John Douglas Hazen: Somewhere in the neighbourhood of $30,000. An immense volume of evidence was taken, and the charges in that way were very high. We paid J udge Audette $40 for each day in which he was actually engaged in the work. On beihalf of the Government one counsel was employed to investigate these claims and to see that they were properly placed before the judge. I am told that no further amount will be required.


John Howard Sinclair: 
John Douglas Hazen: The Supplementary Estimates that we have just passed were for the past year; those for the present year have not yet been brought down. As the hon. member for Guysborough has stated,
I was waited upon by a delegation composed of a number of leading citizens of Ottawa who were interested in this movement, and by a number of members of the House of Commons. Some information which I then asked for concerning the scope and work of the hospital has since been furnished me and I should like to say to my hon. friend that I am entirely in sympathy with the movement. The subscription asked for $5,000, is a moderate one, and I intend asking my colleagues to authorize me to include that amount in my Supplementary Estimates.


REPORT.
[Stage Direction]
Interim report of the Georgian Bay Ship Canal Commission.-Hon. Robert Rogers.
On motion of Mr. Rogers the House adjourned at 10.20 p.m.
Monday, April 17, 1916.