1916-02-15

CLERK ASSISTANT.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to
inform the House that I have directed the Clerk of the House to lay upon the Table my recommendation and his report on the subject of the appointment of Mr. Arthur Beauchesne, B.A., K.C., to the position of Clerk Assistant of the House of Commons in place of the late Mr. J. B. R. Laplante.



DISTURBANCES AT CALGARY AND CAMPBELLTON.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I asked yesterday for information with regard to the riots alleged to have taken place at Calgary. Has the Minister of Militia received any information on the subject?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Inquiry has been
made concerning this matter from the district officer commanding the Calgary and Alberta divisions, and an official report will be received ih due course. I am sure that the reports have been very greatly exaggerated.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has any report been received from the commanding officer?


Samuel Hughes: A report has been received that everything is perfectly quiet; we shall have an official report by to-morrow. I have read in Hansard the inquiry of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) concerning an alleged disturbance among the soldiers at Campbellton. We have no record of anything of the kind, although inquiry is being made. From my knowledge of the soldiers of that locality, I have no reason to believe that there is any truth whatever in the statements made.


Mr. MARCIL:: I read in the last issue of the Campbellton Graphic that on pay-day twenty men had to be put in tb.e guardhouse; that some persons had the means of reaching the soldiers there and of distributing whisky among them, much to the annoyance of the whole community. I merely i inquired whether any steps were being taken to prevent such occurrences.


Samuel Hughes: Reports of that description have frequently been received
61*
from all over Canada, and I have never found one of them justified in the slightest degree by the facts.



SHELL CONTRACTS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the/Day:
Mr. CARVELL:: I should like to call the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that on two different occasions I received the promise of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that a complete list of all shell contracts would be laid upon the table of the House. We have waited patiently for this valuable information, and should like to know when we may expect to receive it.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I will direct the attention of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries to my hon. friend's statement. I presume the information could only be obtained from the Shell Committee, and I have no doubt that my hon. friend could obtain it as easily as the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.	.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Minister of Marine and Fisheries got a portion of it, by some means-I suppose by asking for it. He promised to supplement that information and to give us the whole of it. We feel that that is the proper channel througii which it should come.



EMBARGO ON OATS AND OATMEAL.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. OLIVER:: I wish to repeat a question I asked yesterday, which followed up one I asked some days before of the Minister of Trade and Commerce in regard to the reported imposition of an embargo on the export of oats and oatmeal. The minister said he would give the information at a later date.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: There is no
embargo on the export of oats or oatmeal to British countries, to the United States, or to most of the allied countries, so far as I recollect.


Frank Oliver: I would gather from what the minister says that an embargo has been placed on the export of oats to certain countries.


George Eulas Foster: Just to certain neutral countries. In respect of some of these countries the embargo was modified by permitting exportation under certain conditions of consignment. This is particularly true with reference to Holland, to which country shipments have to go either to the Government or to a company

which has been formed under the joint auspices of the Governments of Holland and of Great Britain.


Frank Oliver: As the matter seems to
be somewhat complicated, would it be possible for the minister to give detailed information as to what can be done and what cannot be done? This matter is one of considerable importance in the part of the country which I represent, and I should like to have the information.


George Eulas Foster: I understood
that my hon. friend's questions at first had reference simply to the United States.


Frank Oliver: That was because the
report was that the embargo applied to exports of these commodities to the United States.



THE COMMANDEERING OF WHEAT- THE IMPERIAL MUNITIONS BOARD.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. KNOWLES:: During the course of
his speech in the debate on the Address, the Prime Minister was good enough to promise that the Minister of Trade and Commerce would make a full statement with regard to the commandeering of wheat. Can the right hon. gentleman give the House any Information as to when we may expect a statement of the circumstances connected with that action on the part of the Government?


Robert Laird Borden: I have not discussed the date with my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but I will bring the matter to his attention.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.
It is very difficult to get information, for instance, _ with regard to the new Shell Committee, the other day the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) told us in so many words that he would bring down information asked for by my hon. friend from Carleton, N.B. (Mr. Carvell). To-day the Prime Minister tells us that he will confer with them again, just as he will with the Minister of Trade and Commerce. But conferring is not action. Are we to understand that we cannot have any information with regard to the operations of that committee, in accordance with the promise of the Minister of Marine.


Robert Laird Borden: As to information which we shall seek or bring down

with regard to the Shell Committee, we are entirely governed by the wishes of the British Government in respect to matters that they esteem to be confidential.


Wilfrid Laurier: Do I understand that the Government has no control over the Shell Committee? '


Robert Laird Borden: None whatever.


Wilfrid Laurier: - Can we have information by whom it is appointed? There must be correspondence. -


Robert Laird Borden: Is my hon.
friend speaking of the Imperial Munitions Board or of the Shell Committee?


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not know which it is. I have no information; I wish I could knpw what we are talking about. I know there is some mysterious organization, somewhere, presided over by Mr. Fla-velle, which is supposed to be a Shell Committee, which is supposed to give contracts for munitions; and I know further that the Minister of Marine said he would bring down information as to the contracts given by that committee.


Six ROBERT BORDEN:: I may say to my hon. friend, what I thought he knew already, that the records of the Shell Committee or the Imperial Munitions Board are not in the possession of the Government, and never have been. The Imperial Munitions Board was appointed by the British Ministry of Munitions through Mr. W. L. Hichens, who represented that board fully in this country at the time of the appointment and who, as I said, communicated the personnel of the whole board to; the Ministry of Munitions before he appointed them. They are acting under the direct orders of the Imperial Ministry of Munitions, not under the orders of the Canadian Government.


Wilfrid Laurier: Then I understand that when the Minister of Marine says he will give information he does not know what he is talking about.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend can' draw any conclusion he likes. I have no doubt that the Imperial Munitions Board will afford any information to either a member of the Government or any member of this House except what is regarded as confidential by the British Government.
I do not think there is the slightest disposition on their part to conceal or withhold anything, subject to considerations of

public interest, which they must take into account under the instructions of the Government which has appointed them.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have to draw the conclusion that my hon. friend the Minister of Marine does not know what he is talking about. It is no pleasure to me to draw that conclusion, but I am surprised to have to draw the further conclusion that this committee has been appointed and all this has taken place without the knowledge of the present Government.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not say it had taken place without the knowledge of the present Government, but that that committee had been appointed by the Imperial Ministry of Munitions. The action which they took was made public in the press at the time by a statement from Mr. Hiohens, the fully authorized representative of the British Ministry of Munitions. I do not think there has been any mystery about it; whatever mystery my right hon. friend may find in the matter is purely conjured up in his own imagination.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say that this is not a place where ignorance is bliss; quite the reverse.


Mr. HAZEN:: I was not in the House when this matter was first brought up. When I was speaking in the debate on the Address, I referred to the names of certain people to whom orders had been given for the manufacture of shells, in answer to the statement that these orders had been given for political purposes. I was asked by the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) for further information, and I suggested that the information which he wanted might be obtained from the Shell Committee. The hon. gentleman then asked me if I would obtain the information for him, and I said I should be glad to do so if I could, and I believed I could. I wrote a letter to the Munitions Board asking for the information which I said I would endeavour to obtain for the hon. member for Carleton. I received a reply from Mr. Flavelle this morning, and enclosed it to my hon. friend with a covering letter. My hon. friend should receive that letter to-day. Mr. Flavelle in his letter said he did not think that under existing circumstances it was desirable to give that information to the public. In good faith I applied on behalf of my hon. friend who desired the information, and the answer will be in his possession this afternoon. As to my hon. friend's statement that I did not know what I was talking about, I think that statement ought to be modified by my right hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It has been pretty well verified. The Minister of Marine now says he has been refused the information which I wanted by the Munitions Board. Will he kindly tell us how he was able to get the information which he wanted and which he furnished to the House?


John Douglas Hazen: The statement which I had was furnished to me by a private individual who knew some of the firms to whom these orders had been given in the province of Ontario. Those that were given in the province of New Brunswick I happened to know myself; but the Ontario names were given to me by a gentleman who happened to know of his own information what firms were manufacturing munitions in that province. My hon. friend wanted further a statement as to the amounts of the orders, the prices, etc., which information I did not have at the time, as I told him then. In reply to my request for this information,
I got the letter which I have enclosed to my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Would the minister
object to giving us the name of the private individual?


John Douglas Hazen: It was given me privately.



CANADA'S WAR CONTRIBUTION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. PUGSLEY:: Mr. Speaker, the Finance Minister made a statement in answer to a question which I put to him some time ago, to the effect that there was an arrangement which was contained in despatches or correspondence with the British Government in reference to Canada's contribution to the cost of the war. My hon. friend then stated that Canada had agreed to pay her proportion of the entire cost of the war, which included guns, rifles, munitions, and everything of that kind. I would ask the Prime Minister if, without the necessity of my making a motion, he would be good enough to lay on the table of the House the correspondence or despatches which have passed between this Government and the Imperial Government in reference to Canada's contribution to the cost of the war.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall look over the correspondence, and, subject to the confidential character of the communica-

tions, and to considerations of the public interest, I shall be very glad to comply with the hon. gentleman's request. Some of the documents could not be brought down at the present time, as certain matters are still under negotiation.



DEBRIS OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MURPHY:: In view of certain items thalt have appeared in the presis, I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works what arrangement, if any, has been made with Peter Lyall & Sons for the removal of the debris of the destroyed Parliament Buildings, 'and also what arrangement has been made, if any, for the rebuilding of the destroyed structure.


Mr. ROGERS:: The 'matter of removing the debris hias been handed over to Messrs. Lyall with instructions to dean ouit the toner parts 'as weld ais they can. Nothing further than that has been done.


Charles Murphy: On what terms ?	.


Robert Rogers: On terms of costs plus ten per cent.



THE CASE OF DR. BELAND.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MACDONALD:: Will the Prime Minister be good enough to tell the House whether he has received any advices from the Foreign Secretary as to the detention of Dr. Bediamd, our coiliieague, who is in prison to Germany P


Robert Laird Borden: All infarmaition on the subject which has been' received has been, communicated to pay right bon. friend the leader of the Opposition, also to the Ihon. imetober for Rouvile (Mr. Le-tnieux), and I think to one other gentleman. who is not 'a member of this House, but who is a w.airm personal 'friend oif Dr. Beiliand. Every passible effort has been made by the Government of Canada through tibe Colonial Office and through the Foreign Office, as well as through the intervention of Sir George Perley, to secure the release of Dr. Beland. We cannot quite understand why certain difficulties have been put forward by the German 'military authorities. The situation its not dear either to us or to the authorities of Great Britain; but I tlhiijnk those to whom the communications have been sent will agree with me that everything possible has been done, both .'by the Canadian authati-tias 'and by 
the authorities of Great Britain, to secure the release of Dr. Bdland, for whose detention there seams to be no justifiable cause.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am bound to say that my right hon. friend, the Government, and the British authorities, have done everything that could be done on behalf of Dr. Beland.



QUESTIONS OF PRIVILEGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Pugsley: I desire to .raise a question of privilege. A few days .ago, a discussion took place with reference to the building of mercantile ships in Canada, and I ventured to make some suggestions to my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries as to the action which I thought ought to be taken for the encouragement of that industry. My remarks appear in Hansard, and, to use the language of my hon. friend from Hastings (Mr. Northrup) last evening, he who runs may read, and even other persons such as he spoke of, who might not have been present when I spoke, may understand. But the Journal of last evening does me very great injustice in using the following words with regard to my position on .that important matter. It says:
There was an interesting discussion toward the close of the week on how Canada might build up a merchant marine. Several suggestions were offered as to how we might build ships in this country, some of them apparently sensible, several manifestly stupid. As a seemingly supreme example of the latter, Mr. Pugsley advanced the idea that we could build ships in the Dominion if we imposed, a high protective tariff on all ships imported from other lands.
Now, what I sought to do, and what 1 did, was to call attention to the disabilities under which shipbuilders in Canada suffered, and I emphasized the fact that while the materials which entered into the building of British ships were free of duty, the materials required for shipbuilding in Canada were subject to a very heavy rate of duty. I suggested that the Canadian shipbuilder should be placed, in a position as like that of the British shipbuilder as possible, and I thought that an excellent means of encouraging shipbuilding in this country would be to give a bonus to those who engaged in shipbuilding. That was the mode of encouragement which I suggested, and I am utterly unable to under-. stand how the editor or the reporter of any newspaper who heard my remarks in the House, or who read them in Hansard,

could make the comment the Journal makes with regard to my position in the matter.
Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski). (Translation) . Mr. Speaker, I think I should draw the attention of the House to a paragraph which appears in this morning's Citizen, and which attributes to me statements which I never made, as having been given out at a meeting of the French 'Canadians at iSt. Ann's hall last evening. Here are the words which the Citizen puts in my mouth :
He expressed the opinion that the question should he taken to the Federal Government, which, he was sure, would find an equitable solution to the difficulties and differences which has arisen over the school question.
I never made such a 'Statement; on the contrary, I said that the question was not one within the purview of the Dominion Government. But, as there were several hon. gentlemen who had come there to gather information concerning the question,
I stated that it was desirable that the members hailing from the province of Quebec should be posted in regard to the matter. In substance, that is what I said.



THE BUDGET.

Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance) moved:: T,hat the Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to go into Committee of Ways and Means.
He said: The Budget of February last, by a comprehensive scheme of general and special taxation, aimed to increase the revenues of the Dominion for the present fiscal year to an aggregate of $150,000,000. I am happy to be able to inform the House that the expectations then formed have been realized in a degree beyond our most sanguine hopes, and that for the present fiscal year ending on March 31 next we confidently anticipate a total revenue of at least $170,000,000, that is to say, $20,000,000 in excess of our estimate. From the date of the introduction of the Budget the sharp monthly declines which had been experienced in our customs duties were at ' once arrested, and our revenues, until August, restored to. the basis of the corresponding months of the year preceding the outbreak of the war. Since August a marked and continually progressive increase has characterized our monthly revenues as compared with those of the corresponding period of the previous year, when the profound derangement of finance and commerce
resulting from the war was exercising so serious an effect upon our imports and general business. From the beginning of the present fiscal year up to February 10 the total revenue of the Dominion from all sources has amounted to $145,000,000, an increase of $31,000,000 ' over the same period of the preceding year. Of this revenue the sum of $82,000,000 has been derived from duties of customs; $19,000,000 from excise; $14,000,000 from post ofiice receipts; and about $3,000,000 from the special taxes otheT than postal levied under the Special War Revenue Act of last year. Of the amount of customs duties mentioned, the sum of $19,000,000 was derived from the increased duties levied under the Customs Wax Revenue Act.
Civil Expenditure, 1915-16.
In the Budget of last year I stated it to be the policy of the Government that new works would not be undertaken until the financial outlook became clearer, and we should have in view the source of funds from which to meet the expenditure. This policy has been rigidly followed. Only works actually under contract have been proceeded with and civil expenditure has been kept within close bounds. As a result, our outlays for the year for purposes other than those of the war have been much less than the estimate of the Budget. Up to the present our expenditure on ordin-any account has been in round figures $93,500,000, a decrease of over $13,000,000, as compared with the same period of the previous year. On capital account our expenditures-principally upon such works as the National Transcontinental railway, the Quebec bridge, Halifax terminals, improvements to the St. Lawrence Ship channel, the Welland Ship canal, and the Hudson Bay railway-have amounted to $30,500,000, a decrease of $7,000,000 over the corresponding period of the previous year.
Taking into account our increased revenue on the one hand and our decreased ordinary and capital expenditure on the other, it will be seen that, apart from the cost of the war, there has been an improvement in the financial position of the Dominion for the period since April last of no less a sum than $51,000,000. The improvement for the entire fiscal year will probably reach $57,000,000.
War Expenditure-1915-16.
During the last session Parliament passed a War Appropriation Act for

faithful fulfilment our success and consequently our national safety may ultimately depend.
Apart altogether from these higher grounds, it is to be pointed out that in so far as our present prosperity is based upon abnormal prices for our produce and upon the production of war material, it is precarious and transient, and dependent upon the continuance of the war and its conditions. On ordinary business grounds alone, the prudent husbanding of resources and the wise conservation of profits are dictated by the plainest considerations of practical wisdom and good sense. It is in the spirit of these remarks that I now approach the consideration of our financial estimates and programme for the coming year.
Fiscal Year 1916-17.
It is well to make it perfectly clear at the outset that notwithstanding the satisfactory increase in revenue and our diminishing civil expenditures, the burden of financial administration will be much heavier in the coming than it has been in the past year. The last War Appropriation Act authorized an expenditure of $100,000,000.. The War Appropriation Act of this session will authorize an expenditure of $250,000,000, all of which, and possibly more, will be required for the raising, equipping, transporting and maintenance of our rapidly increasing forces. The all-important question, therefore, to be considered- is, " How shall we provide the money?" There are only two sources from which it can legitimately come, namely, from revenue, and from borrowing. The Government is resolutely determined to maintain the standard of our currency and not to resort to the issue of unsecured paper money, which is merely a forced loan without interest, loading to depreciation and the gravest economic evils which can afflict a nation. In this connection it will be of interest to the House to know that our gold reserves held against Dominion ntftes amount to $115,147,985, or 64-2 per cent of the outstanding circulation.
As regards our ordinary and capital expenditure, we shall endeavour to continue to effect all possible reductions. Our Estimates contain numerous items hitherto adopted by Parliament, representing works with which it is not our intention to proceed during the period of the war. The policy adopted from its outbreak, which has given such excellent results to date, of proceeding only with works actually under contract, will continue to guide us. Further, should finan-

cial exigency so require, we shall not hesitate to terminate contracts and leave works in an unfinished condition, notwithstanding the immediate and prospective loss and damages involved. I do not, however, think that such a course will be necessary.
So far as we can estimate, our ordinary expenditure for the coming year will amount to about $135,000,000 as compared with $125,000,000 for this year and $135,000,000 for last year. Our capital estimates are $30,000,000 as compared with $46,000,000 for this year. Adding the ordinary and capital expenditure we look forward to a total civil expenditure for the year of $160,000,000 as compared with $165,000,000 for the present year and $187,000,000 for last year. It must be borne in mind that included in our ordinary expenditure for the coming year is the sum of $36,000,000 representing charges upon our public debt, of which sum no less than $20,000,000 represents increased interest due to our war borrowings; and a further sum of $2,000,000 for pensions payable on account of the war. In making a comparison between our ordinary expenditure for the coming year and that of preceding years, these important items aggregating an increase due to the war of $22,000,000 must be taken into account.
Should it seem expedient, we shall feel justified in borrowing, as we did during the present year, for our capital expenditure. Assuming that this is accomplished, we should have on the basis of present revenue a surplus of $35,000,000 to apply upon our war expenditures. This would leave the sum of $215,000,000 additional to be borrowed for the war. Adding to this our proposed borrowing for capital expenditure, we are confronted with an increase of public debt during the coming year of nearly $250,000,000.
The question has often been discussed as to the true financial policy of a nation in time of war. Some have strongly favoured the policy of large borrowing; others have insisted that the cost of a war should be defrayed by a nation at the time it is beiqg waged. Obviously, in a war such as this, the latter course would be impossible. The truth seems to be that it is not practicable for all nations to adopt the same policy or for any nation the same policy at all times. The circumstances and conditions of individual nations must be taken into consideration. If a country has much accumulated wealth, a policy of drastic taxation would appear to be advisable. With a country such as ours, rich in potential resources, certain of future development and great ex-

pansion of production and population, but without at present large accumulations of wealth, it would appear to me that we are justified in placing upon posterity the greater portion of the financial burden of this war, waged as it is in the interests of human freedom, and for their benefit in equal if not in greater degree than for our own. Canada in future years of peace, with the prosperity which will be her heritage from the development of unbounded resources, will be well able' to meet the interest and sinking fund 4 p.m. charges upon such debt as we shall be obliged to incur in defence of our country and its liberties. From an example the House will more readily see what I have in mind. Let us assume that our indebtedness on account of this war will reach $500,000,000. At 5 per cent the annual interest will amount to $25,000,000. This sum with a substantial amount added yearly for a sinking fund could in my opinion be met, provided strict economy be practised by Governments, from the future revenues of the Dominion. In national finance, if debts can be funded, the practical question is that of payment of annual interest. But while this is so, the fact must not be overlooked that debt is debt, a financial obligation and burden upon the body politic, whether owed to investors at home or abroad. In making these observations it is my earnest desire that neither the House nor the country will gather the impressidn that we underrate the magnitude of the liabilities which we are assuming or the gravity of the financial considerations involved in Our participation in this great struggle. We believe, however, that the people of Canada desire the Government to put forward the maximum of effort in the cause, and that they will, both for the present and the future, be prepared to cheerfully bear whatever burdens may be entailed upon them in consequence.
While I have stated, as I think correctly, what the general policy of Canada should be so far as relatqe to our war finances, I do not desire to be understood as saying that we should not endeavour to raise by taxation a considerable part of our war expenditure. On the contrary, it is my view that it is our clear national duty and supremely in the interest of our credit to provide what we reasonably can without impairing our economic strength. To attempt more would mean too drastic taxation upon a community whose trade and commerce have been seriously interrupted and affected by war conditions, and unduly heavy burdens upon a people already contributing generously of their substance to funds and organizations whose patriotic object is the comfort and wellbeing of our soldiers and the dependents they have left behind. In connection with taxation, there is another feature which we must also bear in mind, namely, that Canada is a country inviting immigration, and we must be careful not to create the impression that it is likely to become a country of heavy individual taxation. In this connection I think it opportune to state, on behalf of the Government and as enunciating its settled policy, that in providing our war expenditure resort will not be had to taxation upon the farms, personal effects or incomes of those engaged in our great basic industry of agriculture.
Taxation and Loans, 1916-17.
With these preliminary observations as to general financial policy applicable at this time, I approach the consideration of our taxation proposals and financial'programme for the coming year. By the last Budget we increased, with certain exceptions, the general and intermediate tariff rates by seven and a half per cent, and the preferential rates by five per cent. We also imposed special taxes upon banks, insurance, loan and trust companies, and upon cheques, money orders, telegrams, railroad, sleeping-car and steamship tickets, letters and postal cards, and upon wines and certain other commodities. At the time this broad measure of taxation was imposed, many were of opinion that the war might not last through the year, and the measures then adopted were regarded as adequate to meet the needs of the military establishment we had then in view, viz., one hundred thousand men. With the altered situation which I have before mentioned, in which we have recruited troops to the number of 250,000 and are aiming to increase these to 500,000, it is manifest that we must devise further ways and means of meeting the expenditure necessary to organize and equip the new contingents and maintain our entire forces.
Tariff Proposals.
As to taxation measures we have no tariff proposals to offer except the following. We propose to alter fibe duty^ payable on apples to 90 cents per barrel. We regard tlhlis diulty as linddspensalbly necessary for the preservation of the apple growing industry of Canada and piarltiioulartly that of British Goilutn-

$15,000,000. Having regard to the rate of interest which the Dominion is now paying upon its securities, there can be no hardship in such legislation either to the insurance companies or their policyholders who will obtain an investment of the highest character yielding a most attractive interest return. I have the less hesitation in proposing this legislation because, unlike other financial companies, life insurance companies and associations have not been subjected to Dominion taxation. In connection with this measure, I desire to express my sincere thanks to the life insurance companies and associations for their prompt, generous, and patriotic response to the appeal for subscriptions to the Canadian war loan. Their holdings in this issue will, of course, be available pro tanto in discharge of their obligations under the proposed Act.	.
I now beg to give notice of a Bill intituled, "The Life Insurance Companies Investment Act, 1916," which I shall later introduce to the House.
To promote saving among the public and afford a ready means of remunerative investment in Dominion securities for funds seeking investment during the intervals [DOT] between public offerings, we have determined to authorize the sale, from time to time, in principal sums of $100 and multiples thereof, of debenture stock repayable in five years from date of issue, and bearing interest payable half yearly by cheque negotiable without discount at any branch of any chartered bank in Canada. The price will be par, and full information as to the nature and terms of the issue will be published later. The Government will reserve to itself the right to limit the amount of individual sales, and generally to deal with the issue as may be deemd advisable having regard to the national credit and requirements.
These, Mr. Speaker, are all the fiscal and financial proposals which I have to lay before Parliament in the present Budget, and it is my earnest hope that they may merit and find general acceptance. Taxation measures can hardly ever be expected to be popular, at least with those upon whom they fall. But I much mistake the spirit and .temper of the Canadian people if they do, not cheerfully accept as hitherto in the spirit of the loftiest patriotism and willing self-sacrifice the added burdens which the exigencies of the war compel us to cast upon them.
It may seem premature at this stage of

the conflict to touch upon the question of policy to be pursued after its termination. But this I feel justified in stating, that the Government is fully alive to the importance of taking immediate action looking to the promotion of desirable immigration and land settlement, both during and after the war, and the creation of all necessary machinery and organization to that end. The future of Canada rests with the development of its great resources, of which the greatest and most fundamental is agriculture, and this development is in turn bound up with the question of increase in population of the productive sort and the facilities' afforded it for the application of its intelligence and industry. It is probable that in the straitened financial conditions which may prevail for some years forward the question of capital for the development of agriculture may be of paramount importance, and it is our intention to inquire carefully during the coming recess into this most important subject, with a view, if desirable in the public interest, to supplementing by ' federal aid existing facilities in this connection. Particularly will the questibn of the establishment of a system whereby loans at reasonable rates repayable on the amortization principle engage the attention of the Government,
It might be assumed that in so important a deliverance as the Budget speech I should say something as to the war and its progress. But the subject has been dealt with so ably and so eloquently by the leaders and members on both sides of the House that further reference on my part could be only superfluous. The conflict has developed and extended upon a scale and to an extent far beyond our expectations or imaginings at its inception. Looking backward over its tragic course and reflecting upon its varied fortunes, there has grown in the hearts and minds of all an ever-deepening sense of its increasing gravity and menace to the Empire's safety. But the Empire's courage and the Empire's strength have steadily grown with the growing peril. Never has our national spirit been more high, never our resolve more unshaken, never have we been more supremely confident of ultimate victory than we are to-day. We have taken the measure of our foe, we have estimated the resources of our manhood and the other elements of Imperial power, and we steadfastly abide the issue in calm consciousness of inherent strength and the eternal justice of our cause. We fight for human

progress and for human rights, and we can and shall endure unto the end.


Mr A. K. MACLEAN (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, the financial statement which has just been delivered by the Minister of Finance involves a great many important matters which one could not very well anticipate, particularly /in dletail; and we on this side of the House would like some short opportunity for studying the same. I trust, therefore, that it will be agreeable to the House if I move the adjournment of the debate until Thursday, when we shall be ready to resume. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: Before that
motion is put, there are one or two things that, perhaps, the bon. Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) would clear up, and in regard to which he might give some further information to the country. Is it the intention to create machinery in connection with the Finance Department for the collection of these special taxes. I would like to understand also, how he proposes to deal with companies who are making profits from the war, and which have organizations both within and without our country.	,


William Thomas White: I read the resolution somewhat hurriedly, hut it very fully explains the points raised by my hon. friend. There will of course be machinery for the making of assessments under the Act and the collection of the taxes through the Finance Department.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Department of the Interior-Dominion lands and parks-salaries of the outside service, $465,000.
["Then the department is not out anything at all; it is the war vote that is touched, not the department. Under the circumstances, therefore, I think the minister could reduce this vote by the salaries of the men who have gone off the pay-roll.\nAt six o'clock, the House resumed, and then took recess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock."]
Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Minister of the Interior):: This is to cover the expenses of the following officials:	Homestead inspectors, inspectors of land agencies, inspectors of branches, Dominion lands and Crown timber agencies and sub-land-agencies, and to provide for any additional help that may be required during the year, or for any increases in salaries.


Charles Murphy: There is no increase?


William James Roche: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would like to ask the Minister of the Interior if he
intends to spend all of this money, or if he wants to be economical and retrench somewhat. We have just heard the statement of the hon. Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) that the Government will not expend the whole of their Estimates. Does that apply to the Department of the Interior? It is a very wrong practice to make the Estimates larger than the intended expenditure. The Estimates which have been brought down provide for an expenditure on consolidated fund account of $153,958,730.58. In the Budget speech the Minister of Finance stated that he did not contemplate expending $158,000,000. but only $125,000,000, if I understood him aright. Therefore, to provide in the Estimates for $33,000,000 more than you intend to expend, is a very wrong practice. I do not want to enter into a discussion with the Minister of the Interior on that point; I will discuss it with the Minister of Finance. Does my hon. friend intend to expend the whole of the amount that he is asking for, or is he going to economize.


William James Roche: I might explain to my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, that this is to provide for the salaries of 463 officials. Of these there are some 55 who have enlisted and whose places we have not as yet been filled.


Wilfrid Laurier: And which vou will not fill?


William James Roche: ' Not unless it is absolutely essential.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Are you paying their salaries?


William James Roche: Those who enlisted prior to the 1st of November, 1915, are drawing their civil pay and their military pay; but those who enlisted after that date receive only their military pay and the difference between that and their civil pay.


Mr. NESBITT:: Why not put them all on the same basis? .


William James Roche: We are governed by an Order in Council which applies to the whole service. On account of the pretty heavy drain on the war fund to pay these salaries and the salaries of substitutes, we thought it wise to impose some safeguard, and in consequence the Order in Council was passed that those who enlisted after the 1st of November, 1915, should receive, not their civil pay and their military pay, but merely their military pay and the difference between that and their civil pay.

818 '


William Pugsley: I understand that the Order in Council passed on the 1st of November applies to all departments. Suppose a young man in one of the departments wishes to qualify as a commissioned officer, either a captain or a lieutenant; is he allowed any portion of his salary while he is attending one of the training schools, say in Quebec or Halifax? Is he obliged to pay his own expenses while at the school?


William James Roche: We have allowed leave of absence with pay to those who have left for the training school, as some of them have. Of course, if they go to the school after they enlist, they receive their military pay while there.


William Pugsley: Is that done under a general Order in Council, ot is it a matter of favoritism by the head of the department?


William James Roche: So far as leave of absence is concerned, I do not think there is any general Order in Council. A few men in my department have asked me for leave of absence to attend one of these training schools, and I have always granted it.


William Pugsley: Where leave of absence is granted, then, the men receive pay during their absence under a general Order in Council?


William James Roche: Yes, under the general Order in Council.


William Pugsley: The reason I bring this up is that I know of a young man in the employ of the Government who wished to attend one of these training schools. The information he has been given is that he will have to forfeit his pay during the time he is at the training school. I am therefore very glad to hear the minister say that there is a general Order in Council, applying to all departments, that these young men shall receive pay while at the training school. This is a very important matter, for this reason. These young men cannot very well afford to pay their own expenses and lose their pay. All of them have to have uniforms before they can attend the school, and I believe they are obliged to buy their uniforms themselves. If that is the case, it strikes me as very unfair, and I think it will prevent many thoroughly good young men who would make splendid officers from attending the school. A man, for instance, earning two or three dollars a day, would have to spend two or three months' wages in buying his

uniform. This is a very important matter, and I am therefore glad to hear the minister say that the men in the departments are allowed their pay while at the training school.


William James Roche: Either the hon. gentleman misunderstood me or I misunderstood him. I did not wish to give the impression that there is a general Order in Council allowing pay to any person in the department while he is qualifying at one of the training schools. There is no general Order in Council to that effect. The Order in Council of November 1 simply provides that those who enlist on and after the 1st of November shall receive only their military pay and the difference between that and their civil pay. Those who enlisted previous to that date draw both their civil pay and their military pay. Prior to the 1st of November we did not make this distinction.


William Pugsley: Perhaps the minister misunderstood my question, or he may have received different information since he gave his answer. But in answer to my question he said that to the men in his department he had granted leave of absence to attend a training school, and that their pay had been allowed to go on while they were at the school. Does the minister wish to withdraw that statement?


William James Roche: I can only answer for my own department. There is no general Order in Council covering such a case. I have in all cases allowed young men in my department who wanted to attend the training school three weeks' holidays, and three weeks additional leave of absence with pay. The course takes about six weeks, I think.


William Pugsley: They get paid during the whole six weeks?
.Mr. ROCHE: Yes.


William Pugsley: If this is simply a matter of favouritism by the head of the department, it is entirely wrong.


William James Roche: I have allowed leave of absence in every case.


William Pugsley: But other ministers have not. There should he a general Order in Council providing for the same practice in every department. It is entirely unjust that while employees of the Department of the Interior are granted three weeks' holidays, and a further three weeks' leave with pay, to attend a training school, em-

ployees of other departments of the Government are denied the same right. There should be one rule, and only one rule, applying to all departments. It is a very great hardship that any of these young men should be deprived of their pay during the period they are qualifying at the training school, and that they should have to pay for their own uniforms. This is a state of affairs which prevents the country from having [DOT] the benefit of the services of hundreds of young, men who, while they have not much of this world's goods, would make just as valuable officers as the sons of wealthy parents, and in many cases better.


Mr. KYTE:: Did I understand the minister to say that all those in his department who enlisted previous to the 1st oi November, 1915, enjoy their civil salaries in addition to their military pay?


William James Roche: Yes.


Mr. TURRIFF:: A man drawing three or four thousand dollars a year from this Government might enlist prior to the 1st of November, and be appointed to a military position paying two or three thousand dollars a year. Would that man get both salaries?


William James Roche: I do not think there has been a case of that nature in my department, and I think there would be very few such cases in any of the departments. But that is the principle.


John Gillanders Turriff: On what grounds does
the Government justify paying a man who enlists on. the last day of October both his civil and military pay, and a man who enlists on the 1st of November only his military pay, and the difference between that and his civil pay? If that practice is followed there will be no harmony in the departments of the Government nor in the trenches. I am not speaking particularly against either system, although I think the latter system is the best; but I say that all the men should be treated alike: put them all under one system or under the other. I do not think the present system is fair. A man drawing a large salary from this Government may be appointed to a position in the service overseas, carrying with it a laTge salary. That position may take the man into the trenches, or he may be miles away from the trenches, and in no more danger than in a civil position in the city of Ottawa. Why should such a man be allowed to
52i
draw two big salaries just because he happened to enlist prior to the 1st of November? Why distinguish between those who enlist before the 1st of November and those who enlist after? If it is wrong to pay a man both his military pay and his civil pay, why does the Government continue to do it? As the Minister of Finance pointed out this afternoon, we do not know in what position we are in this war; we may be only at the beginning of it. We must, therefore, conserve our resources and we ' must practise economy. If the Government wants the people of Canada to economize, the Government should set the example; but it is not showing that example of economy that we would like to see, especially in some cases that I have in mind, though not in the department of my hon. friend. Some explanation ought certainly to be given as to why a distinction is made between men joining before the first of November and men joining after that date.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: I wish to ask the hon. gentleman a question in regard to promotion after enlistment. Take, for instance, an official in the Post Office Department, who is entitled to promotion from one grade to another after a certain examination. If such an official has enlisted, is he still entitled to that promotion?
I must say that I find the distinction quite invidious between soldiers or officers who enlisted before the first of November last and those who enlisted after that date. It might happen that certain men were not of age or were not ready to enlist before the first of November last, and because they enlisted on the first or second of November last, there would be an invidious distinction made as to the amount of money they would draw from the department. Now, it seems to me that this war is being waged for the principle of equal rights. Is it fair, then, among men of the same national family who are fighting in the trenches one should be able to say to another: I enlisted on the 30th of October, being an official of this or that department, and I receive my full monthly salary, whilst you, my comrade, because you were not of age or had not at that time passed the medical examination enlisted on the first or on the second of November, and receive less than I do. This is not fair, and the Government should apply to all the policy which it has adopted by the terms of the Order in

Council of the first of November last. The same treatment should be meted out to every member of the Canadian expeditionary force. They are all fighting the same enemy; let them fight on the same terms and with equal rights.


William James Roche: In regard to the first point raised by my hon. friend that promotions have been refused to wiose


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
William James Roche: I understand that the Civil Service Commission has refused to sanction such promotions.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have in my mind
the Post Office Department, because that is the department over which I formerly presided. Perhaps my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Mr. Casgrain) could explain this matter to me. There are various grades in the outside service. , A man may enter the service at a salary of say $600, and after twelve months or twenty-four months he is entitled to promotion, provided he passes a certain examination. Will that officer, being in the expeditionary force, be entitled to that promotion which he would have received had he been on duty in Canada?


Robert Laird Borden: If he has to
pass an examination, obviously he cannot lie promoted.


Rodolphe Lemieux: He cannot pass it, because he is on service overseas.


Robert Laird Borden: The Civil Service Act would control that.


Charles Marcil: Why was the change
made on the first of November? No reason has yet been given.
Mr.' ROCHE: I have explained the reason. Substitutes for civfl servants who have gone to the front have to be paid out of the war appropriation, and we felt that there was too big a drain on it. That was one reason that led us to make the change. Hon. members who have spoken seem to think that the present system is the proper one, that is, only to pay these men the deference between their military and their civil pay, but they wish to go further and reduce the pay of those who enlisted prior to the first of November. I do not agree
| M r. I.emkrUX. ]
with that proposition, because it would be a breach of contract. All those men enlisted on certain conditions, and, as they did so enlist and went overseas, to reduce their pay would not be doing justice to them; but we are not doing any injustice to those who have enlisted since the first of November, because they know in advance what pay they are going to receive.


George William Kyte: I have in mind an appointment made by the Minister of the Interior in October, 1914, to a position commanding a salary of $1,800, a year. There was no attempt made to justify the appointment on the ground that it was necessary; in fact, the duties assigned to the young 5 p.m. man who was appointed had been discharged by another official, who had a smaller salary. About the first of August, 1915, this young man enlisted in one of the regiments which were being recruited at Halifax. He has undergone some training and up to the present time he is in Halifax still enjoying his salary of $1,800 a year, as well as the allowance made to him by the Militia Department in his rank of lieutenant. I do not know what the salary of a lieutenant is, but I presume it is a respectable sum.


John Gillanders Turriff: $125 a month.


George William Kyte: Then he is in receipt of $275 a month, if you take into account his civil and his military pay. When the minister's Estimates were up last year, I pointed out to him that the appointment of this man was entirely unjustifiable, because the other official had never complained tfcat the duties were too arduous, nor that his territory .was too large for him to cover. The appointment was, I say, for the purpose of giving this young man a position, and the country was doing very well when it provided him with a salary of $1,800 a year. Now, by reason of the policy adopted by the Department of the Interior prior to the first of November last, this man enjoys the additional salary which comes to him as a lieutenant. The duties of the position to which he was appointed in the Department of the Interior are being discharged by the gentleman who has discharged them during the last seven or eight years. I have no fault to find with the treatment that has been accorded to this young man in Halifax, but I do think there is no logical reason why those men who enlisted since November 1, should not have the same privilege as to salary as those who enlisted previous to that date. I

am informed that employes of other departments who volunteered for service previous to November 1, were told that they would not receive their salaries as civil servants if they joined the forces. I am not in a position to vouch for the accuracy of this, but it has been a matter of complaint in the province of Nova Scotia that the same rule has not been made applicable to the employees of all departments of Government.


Robert Laird Borden: To what regiment is this gentleman attached?


George William Kyte: I am not in a position to
say.


William James Roche: What position did he hold in the department?


George William Kyte: He was Superintendent of
Indian Agencies in the Maritime provinces.


William James Roche: That does not come under the Department of the Interior.


John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend said a
moment ago that he thought it would be a breach of contract if those who enlisted prior to November 1, 1914, did not continue to receive their double salaries. That is to say, in effect, that that class of men joined the colours simply because they wanted to get the double salary.


William James Roche: Not necessarily.


John Gillanders Turriff: It practically amounts
to that. If these men have any complaint, it is that they would not have joined had they known that they were not to receive their salaries as civil servants. If, as the Minister of Finance said to-day, we desire to do our part to carry the war through successfully, we must economize. The Minister of the Interior is a level-headed, reasonable man; does he think it is reasonable that a political position should be created for the gentleman referred to by the hon.memberfor Richmond (Mr. Kyte), when there was no more need for his services than there is for a fifth wheel to a wagon? He has not gone overseas; a great many men who enlisted in the early part of the war are shirking their duties, and have absolutely no intention of going to the war. I have in mind the case of a man who was drawing a salary of $80 a month. He joined the army, and his wife is now getting his salary, $80 a month, besides separation allowance, part of her husband's pay as a soldier, and, I think, an allowance from the Patriotic Fund. So that she has plenty of money to spend, and is making no attempt to save it. That is the kind of economy
that my hon. friend recommends; it is not the economy referred to in the splendid speech of the Minister of Finance this afternoon. I agree with the Minister of Finance that in order to bring the war to a successful issue we must expand our production, develop our resources, and practise economy, and what kind of example is this department giving us? I consider the case brought forward by the hon. member for Richmond to be a strong indictment against this Government, and I think it would be well if the Minister of Interior should get from the Minister of Militia a statement of the amount being paid to this official, and the nature of the duties which are still occupying his attention in Halifax, notwithstanding the fact that he enlisted in the early days of the war. There may be a good reason for his not going overseas, but I do know of many cases where men who joined early in the war are still strutting round in their frills and feathers without the slightest intention of going to the front.


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot concur in the observation of my hon. friend that a considerable number of persons who have enlisted desire to avoid over-seap service. My experience teaches me that the young men of Canada who have enlisted have been'eminently desirous


John Gillanders Turriff: The great majority, certainly.


Robert Laird Borden: In almost every individual instance they have desired to go to the front.


John Gillanders Turriff: No.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend takes issue with me on that. I am speaking only of my own experience; perhaps he may have had a different experience. As to the young man to whom my hon. friend from Richmond has alluded, if he will send me his name I certainly will have that matter looked into, because I cannot understand why any young man who enlisted for everseas service more than a year ago-


George William Kyte: I said he enlisted in August of 1915. He was appointed to his present position in October, 1914.


Robert Laird Borden: I thought he had been amusing himself for more than a year.


John Gillanders Turriff: I .misunderstood what
the hon. member said. I thought he had enlisted in August, 1914, instead of August, 1915.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, we
know that some regiments have been kept in Canada for rather prolonged periods of training. That has not always been due to any desire or action of the Canadian Government; it has been due very often to the inability of the British authorities either to provide transport or to furnish suitable accommodation for the men on the other side. An Order in Council was passed in the early weeks of the war providing that persons in the Civil Service of Canada who enlisted for overseas service would be paid their salaries during the time they were so serving their country at the front. At that time it was not anticipated that the war would last so long, and we had before us at that time the example of municipal corporations and railway and other corporations throughout Canada that were proposing to do exactly the same thing. The idea was impressed on the Government that the country could hardly afford to be less generous with regard to men who were prepared to make the supreme sacrifice than private corporations throughout the country. As the war went on and a greater number of forces had to be recruited, it became evident to the Government that some question might arise as to the* continued efficiency of the public service if men were allowed to go on these terms. Moreover, we could not let them go without any consideration of the question whether their services would be more valuable to the country and the Empire at the front or in the performance of the duties they had hitherto discharged. After a good deal of consideration it was proposed that the Order in Council which has been laid on the Table should be passed. I am not quite clear as to the views of hon. gentlemen opposite; perhaps they may not all have the same view. It has been suggested by some of them that we should immediately pass an Order in Council amending the Order in Council of 1914 and providing that these men should no longer be paid the salaries to which they were entitled under that order. There are other hon. gentlemen who seem to take the ground that the order of November last should not have been passed and that we should continue to pay all civil servants who go to the front the full amount of their salaries in addition to their pay and their allowance as soldiers. We did not adopt either of these courses, but provided that civil servants hereafter going to the front should go on certain conditions which they well under-
stood before enlisting. They know perfectly well when they enlist the terms on which the Government think civil servants should be permitted to give up their duties in Canada and go to the front to serve in a military capacity. Of course, when we adopted a policy of that kind some date had to be fixed and we fixed, I think, the 1st of November last. Every civil servant who has enlisted on or since that date has enlisted under terms and oonditions which were perfectly well known to him at the time. In addition to that, we had to consider, when a man desired to go to the front, whether or not the duties which he had been performing in the department could be discharged without the engagement of some other person to take his place, to whom an additional salary would have to be paid. The considerations which have been alluded to by the Minister of the Interior were before us in that regard. So we thought that, under the circumstances, the best solution of the matter was along the lines whicn the Government have pursued. ' But if my hon. friends opposite have any definite concrete suggestions as to some other solution which in their judgment is better, we should be very glad to have their suggestions. We made the Order in Council in the first instance in the expectation that the war would not last nearly so long, and we made it having regard to similar proposals which had been made by municipal and other corporations in the country. When the war did last for such a very considerable period, in view of the increased additional strain put on the public service by reason of the duration of dhe war and of the greatly increased number of men we are sending, we came to the conclusion that some change should be made, and it was made along that line.


George Perry Graham: One can readily understand the situation in which the Government found themselves at the beginning of the war. At that time no person, in Canada at least, anticipated that the war would be either so serious ot so long drawn out. Municipalities and other institutions were granting pay or part pay to those in their service who enlisted, and the. Government did likewise. But the conditions have so changed now that it is a serious matter just to decide what ought to be done. This condition confronts one now in discussing the question of enlisting with the ordinary young man: the man in the Civil Service, under the first regulation, is getting in some

instances double pay, and is twice as well off from a financial standpoint as he was before he enlisted. Looking at it only from that viewpoint, he has made no sacrifice; he has made an improvement. Under the second Order in Council the man who is sufficiently fortunate to be in the Civil Service is not making any financial sacrifice; he is in the same position financially as he would have been had he not enlisted. But when you come to the average young man in the country, he is making the supreme sacrifice, he is giving up his employment, giving up perhaps the futnre prospect of it when he comes back, and is taking instead the smaill amount given to him as a private. Financially he is really giving up his entire future. It is difficult to have the best feeling prevailing when you find two men side by side, one better off financially than he was before enlisting, and the other having made the great sacrifice of giving up his salary and any chance of promotion if he was employed by some person or some company. On the other hand, we have thousands of young men in Canada who are locking the doors of their business establishments, so far as they are concerned, young prac-tioners who have just started in the practice of their profession, who are just getting, as it were, on their feet. They are giving up their prospects, locking the door, settling their little businesses, and going overseas for, perhaps, twenty per cent, or twenty-five per cent of what they had hoped to make. It is difficult to convince them of the reasonableness of the man side by side with them being so much better off financially and making no sacrifice in that respect, while they sacrifice everything. It is a difficult situation, and one requiring serious consideration. I think the step the Government have taken towards reducing the amount so that those in the service are not getting any more pay than before they enlisted was a reasonable one, and if the war is to continue perhaps another step will have to be made, so that every man in Canada will be on an equal footing as to the sacrifice he is required to make for the country.


Mr. DEVLIN:: I do not wish to discuss the concrete cases mentioned by my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) and my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte), but I do feel disposed to say that, the Government having come to an understanding with certain young men prior to their enlistment at the outbreak of the war, it would not, in my opinion, be an honourable course for the Government to go back on that understanding. We believe there should be honour between nations, and we also believe that there should be honour between governments and individuals with whom they deal.


George William Kyte: With respect to the men who have actually gone to the front, there is considerable justification for the course taken by the Government; but in cases where the young men have not gone to the front, and are not suffering any more physical or personal discomforts than their neighbours who have not enlisted, I think the minister- should suspend payment of the civil salary until they have actually gone to the front, and not put them in a position to draw double salary while their services to the country are not manifest to the onlooker. I said a moment ago that I had moved in the House for a return of all the employees of the Government who have enlisted since the outbreak of the war, and who are enjoying both civil and military salaries. I would like to ask the minister if he would be good enough to bring down a list of the employees in the Department of the Interior before his Estimates are again under * consideration.


William James Roche: If my hon. friend means a list of all the officials in the Department of the Interior who have enlisted, and of the salaries they are getting, that list has already been brought down. I handed it to the ex-Minister of the Interior the other day. I think that all the employees in the Department of the Ulterior who enlisted have gone to the front, except in two instances, and in these cases the men are specially required for organization purposes by the Militia Department. The hon. member has not pointed out any instance [DOT] .of an employee of the Interior Department getting double pay who has refused to go to the front.


George William Kyte: I did not insinuate that any man had refused to go to the front; I simply referred to oases of young men who had not gone to the front, and who nevertheless were enjoying double salaries.


William James Roche: No doubt the reason they have not gone is that the regiment has not been moved to the front; but we should not dock a young man of his salary because the Government have not seen fit so far to send his regiment overseas. In that respect the Government are guided by the

British War Office. I think it would be distinctly unfair to dock a young man, who comes within the provision of the original Order in Council, of his civil pay simply because his regiment has not been ordered to the front.


George William Kyte: I have no fault to find with the men who are drawing double salary, but I think the Government were guilty of a mistake in making an arrangement which applied only to those who enlisted previous to the first of November, and which they could not carry out in respect to those who enlisted subsequent to the first of November. I think the whole difficulty lies in the circumstance that the Gov ernment had not a well-thought out plan that could be made applicable to all the employees in the different services who have enlisted.


Mr. ROBB:: It is true, as the Prime Minister has pointed out, that many companies and municipalities agreed at the commencement of the war to pay salaries to , their employees if they enlisted and went to the front. I should like to cite the case of one large corporation, perhaps the largest railway corporation in Canada, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The arrangement they made with their employees who enlisted, was that they received no pay so long as they remained in Canada, but when they went overseas they or their families received it for six months, and then it stopped. That was a fair business arrangement, and an inducement to the men to enlist.


George William Kyte: I have looked over the list
brought down by the minister, and I find that it refers only to employees in the inside service. I would like to get a return giving the names of the employees in the outside service who have enlisted.


William James Roche: There is a return to that effect, and it will be laid on the Table tomorrow.


John Gillanders Turriff: The right hon. the Prime Minister pointed out that at the time the first and second contingents were sent overseas it was expected that the war would be short, and a certain arrangement was made with the men who enlisted in those contingents. It seems to me that it would not be unreasonable to look upon that arrangement as a limited one. These men joined in the fall of 1914, and many of us, and I imagine the members of the Government themselves, thought that by November of 1915 	j
the war would be practically over. These men enjoyed double salary up to that date, so it does not seem to me that it would be a hardship to say that on the first of November, 1915, they should come under the new *rule. Let me point out to the Prime Minister just how it works out. Take the case of a young man who was earning say $80 a month in his own business or in the eipploy of a merchant or insurance company that did not give any pay at all to the employees who went to the front. That young man loses his $80 a month, and at the rate of $1.10 per day he takes $33 a month from the Government. Out of a sense of duty to his country and to the Empire he makes that sacrifice. Then take the case of a young man who happened to have the good fortune to work for the Government, and who enlisted subsequent to the first of November. He gets say $80 a month. Right beside them is a man who was in the Civil Service and earning say $80 a month, but who joined prior to the first of November last; he draws $80 plus $33 per month. 'There you have three young men, one getting $33 a month, another $80 a month and a third $113 a month. I leave it to this House and to the Prime Minister to say whether that is a satisfactory state of affairs.


Robert Laird Borden: There are no
doubt, anomalies, but my hon. friend will doubtless remember that in respect to the employees of municipalities and great corporations who have gone to the front under arrangements that have been already alluded to, precisely the same condition exists. Any man who was employed by one of those corporations or municipalities, and who has gone into the trenches, naturally has a very much larger income than the man alongside of him who did not happen to be an employee of one of those corporations or municipalities; so that the anomaly could not be removed even if .the Government should take the course, which my hon. friend seems to suggest, of giving them no portion of their salary. The anomaly would still continue in respect to those members of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces who were employed by those corporations and municipalities. You cannot get away from certain anomalies in any case, because our own men "at the front enjoy a pay that is very considerably larger than the pay of the British soldier fighting in the trenches alongside of him. I am not quite sure what the pay of the British soldier is; I think' it is

about a shilling a day; and the pay of the French soldier, at the commencement of the war, if I remember correctly, was two cents a day.


Charles Marcil: It has been increased to
five cents a day.


Robert Laird Borden: I think it was
originally two cents a day. But, as a matter of fact, in regard to these men who have gone from Canada, whether they are employees of the Government or of any municipality or of any corporation, I for one decline to believe that the question of the remuneration which they were to receive had much to do with it. I believe these men went from a sense of duty. Undoubtedly there are some anomalies which we have endeavoured to correct along the lines laid down by my hon. friend from Wright (Mr. Devlin), who expressed views in regard to our undertaking any change in the arrangements made which were practically those I had expressed to the House before. I am afraid that we could not cure all the anomalies, even if the Government should take the action which my hon. friend thought we should have taken in the first instance. I do not believe that any one in Canada or in the Empire, outside possibly of a few military experts, thought, in the opening months of the war, that it would last for anything like the [DOT] period during which it is likely to continue; so that arrangements were made having regard to a probable duration much shorter than the period which it has proved necessary to provide for.


Charles Marcil: I think the Government
should give notice in the future of any change which they intend making. Any bargain you have made should be lived up to. If a man has gone under certain conditions the Government cannot break the engagement. If we are going to have 250,000 mqre men, and it is doubtful that we can raise that number without interfering very much with the domestic services of the country, the Government should give warning of any intended change so that there will be no misunderstanding.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I am very much surprised to hear that the Government made any such promise as that which was first given. I think they must have become a little bit hysterical or excited at that time. The arrangement which the minister states came into effect on November 1, is absolutely fair and just. The men who joined the forces were prepared to sacri- '
fice their lives. I do not agree with my hon. friend that men who have not been sent out of the country are not just as loyal as any who have gone. They have enlisted, they have put themselves in a position to go, and they may be sent away at any moment. If they are not sent abroad it is probably not their fault. We have never seen any indication that they were not willing to go when the word was given. Simply because there are some still remaining in Canada, I would not deduct from them what they would be entitled to receive if they went to the front. If these men joined under a certain understanding or promise I do not see how the Government can honourably go back on that promise any more than an individual could. I know personally an individual wiho promised his men who joined that their salaries would be paid, and who issues his cheque every month to the men who went with that understanding. Personally, if I induced men to go to the war, or to enlist, upon a certain understanding; I would carry out that understanding as long as I was capable of doing so. I am not blaming the Government for doing what I would do personally, but at the same time I confess to the belief that the Government were carried away by excitement wh&i they made the first promise. If the men go because of their loyalty to the country it was absolutely unnecessary to make such a promise. You cannot get away from anomalies in the trenches any more than you can in private or commercial life. I think the arrangement beginning on the first of November last is perfectly right and proper. I am sorry I cannot advocate the cancellation of the first arrangement, because the men joined on the understanding that it would be carried out.	-


Mr. CRUISE:: Do I understand from the Prime Minister that the arrangement was made that the Government would pay all men who enlisted their full salaries for the duration of the war? The Government has the precedent established by railway and other corporations which undertook to pay their men for six months or a year.


Robert Laird Borden: That may be the case with some corporations, but I know there are other corporations who are paying their men at the front, and propose to pay them during the whole period of the war their full salaries while they are absent, and to keep their places open for them. Doubtless if the Government had anticipated that the war would continue so

long we might have made, in the first instance, the arrangement that was made on the first of November last. But, in the course which we did pursue, we were only adopting the same policy as that which was adopted by many private individuals and public corporations throughout the country.


Frank Oliver: This is a very large amount of money-nearly half a million dollars. I would like to know how this amount stands as compared with the amount for the same services during previous years. I see that this is the same amount as was voted last year. How far back does it run at the same amount, or has there been in recent years, an increase or a decrease? There are certain questions I would like to ask, and I might ask them collectively, so that they could be answered after eight o'clock if desirable.


William James Roche: We have the Estimates here for last year and this year, but I have nothing here that goes back further than that. I could give the information to the hon. gentleman at a later sitting.


Frank Oliver: I would like to know what the yearly amount for this service has been for, say, the past five years. Then I would like to know what has been the amount of the services rendered or called upon in each of the same years in the matter of homestead entries, homestead patents, and the collection of moneys in payments on pre-emptions and purchased homesteads.


John Gillanders Turriff: In view of the need for economy during the war, would it not be possible for the minister to reduce this item? When I was out West a few months ago, I ran across an outside service official, a timber ranger for the Department of the Interior in the district north of Winnipeg. This man was dismissed two or three years ago on the ground that his services were no longer required. He told me that when working for the department he received a Salary during only certain months of the year and a certain amount for expenses. Three men had since been engaged, he said, to do the very work that he had done himself, and they were each drawing $100 or $125. a month all the year round, and expenses. Now, if one man can do that work, and will do it for a much less salary, it seems to me that the minister could practise economy in that very case. I notice that the reduction this year amounts to only a few million dollars in an expendi-

ture of $150,000,000, to $160,000,000. The
percentage of reduction is very small, and I think the minister could help out the Minister of Finance by reducing this particular item. I do not know of any other item in the whole Estimates that could be cut down with less injury to the public service. I might tell my hon. friend that his predecessor the present Minister of Public Works took on a great number of unnecessary men, and I would suggest that the minister let some of these men out; he could do it without injury to the public service, whatever harm it might do to the ex-minister. I venture to say that this item could be reduced by $100,000 without the public service suffering in the slightest degree.


William James Roche: The hon. member will agree that the word of a dismissed official is not always the most reliable or impartial; but if it is true that three men are now engaged where there was only one official heretofore, I think I can suggest a reasonable explanation. The hon. gentleman knows that a certain section of the country has been filling up very rapidly during the last three or four years. A large number of homestead entries have been made between Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg, which [DOT] of course makes more work for our officials. I might also say that last year our whole outside staff-range inspectors, homestead inspectors, and other officials-turned in and assisted in the seed grain work, on which we spent $13,000,000 last year. More than that, we had to engage extra help, temporarily, to assist., in the work. I think it would be false economy to reduce our staff as the hon. member suggests, for in the event of a similar emergency occurring this season we would simply have to engage outside help again. The Estimates for the Department of the Interior' this year are $1,800,000 less than last year's estimates.


John Gillanders Turriff: Was the whole of last
year's vote expended?


William James Roche: All except $7,000 or $8,000.


George Perry Graham: The Finance Minister
told us this afternoon that we should economize, that we should cut out luxuries and buy essentials only. He called attention to the fact that he expected to spend only $135,000,000 next year. Now, these Estimates call for an expenditure of $158,000,000. Therefore, $23,000,000 has to be cut out by somebody, and I think the Interior Depart-

ment might lend the Finance Minister a hand in this particular item. There are, I think, fifteen departments of the Government altogether; that would mean that each department should cut down its Estimates by $1,500,000.	'


William James Roche: My reduction is over


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend has done pretty well on the total, but I think on this particular item he could make a nice reduction and spend the money, if he must spend it, on something that is more urgently needed. There is another point. Are we to understand that officials of the Department of the Interior who have enlisted reecive their full salary from the Government, and that the war appropriation fund makes up the difference?


William James Roche: Only those who enlisted before the 1st of November, 1915, are drawing civil as well as military pay. I might point out that we do not pay the substitutes as much as the permanent men. For instance, the substitute of an official drawing a salary of $1,500 would receive only about $1,200 from the war vote.


George Perry Graham: Then the department is not out anything at all; it is the war vote that is touched, not the department. Under the circumstances, therefore, I think the minister could reduce this vote by the salaries of the men who have gone off the pay-roll.
At six o'clock, the House resumed, and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Dominion lands and parks-contingencies, advertising, etc., $300,000.
["As we have done a\npretty good day's work I would suggest that we adjourn.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.\nWednesday, February 16, 1916."]
Frank Oliver: Will the minister say
what kind of advertising this is?


William James Roche: This item covers advertising re sale of timber berths, insertion of homestead and coal mining regulations, notices in connection with lands open for entry, etc.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I remember when my
hon. friend was sitting on this side of the House, not himself but some of the members of his party, notably my good and genial friend the member for Peel
(Mr. Blain), used to argue very strongly, in sitting after sitting, that even in the case of advertising, tenders should be invited. Has my hon. friend taken a leaf out of the book of the hon. member [DOT] for Peel by deciding to ask for tenders from the different papers, or does he give this advertising to the party press?


William James Roche: The homestead and
mining regulations are published in the press of the country at the King's Printer's price. No tenders are asked for, but there is a standard price.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I venture to say
that the publishing of the homestead regulations is done only by a certain class of papers. My hon. friend will look in vain through the pages of the Regina Leader, the Saskatoon Phoenix and the Moosejaw Times for the homestead regulations; but he will find them in the Regina Province, the Moosejaw News, the Saskatoon Star, and other mino'r Conservative papers in the province of Saskatchewan. It is a matter of business that the homestead regulations should be published by the papers having the largest circulation in the province, or outside of it, for that matter. I suppose the minister would not care whether the coming of an immigrant into Canada was the result of an advertisement in the Saskatoon Star rather than in the Saskatoon Phoenix; I think he would be perfectly satisfied if a man came into this country as the result of the circulation of a Liberal newspaper. There must be a patronage list of some kind with respect to these newspapers.


William James Roche: That would be a crime, I suppose.


William Melville Martin: When I sat on the Government side of the House I used to hear criticisms from many hon. gentlemen who are new supporting uie present Administration with respect to advertising only in certain classes of newspapers. I do not know whether I would find fault with my hon. friend if he wanted to favour his friends with some special advertising, but in a matter of this kind, which affects the whole people of the country, he should put his patronage list aside.


John Gillanders Turriff: Has the hon. member
for Peel asked the minister to call for tenders in connection with these advertisements? [DOT]	.


William James Roche: I do not recollect that at
the moment.


Frank Oliver: What are the principal
headings under which this large sum of $300,000 for contingencies, advertising, etc., is to be disbursed?


William James Roche: Expenses of homestead inspectors, including purchase of travelling outfits, $65,000; expenses of timber inspectors, including purchase of travelling outfits, $20,000; expenses of inspectors of ranches, $10,000; expenses of 27 Dominion lands and crown timber agencies, $60,000; travelling expenses of outside service officials when away on Government business, $35,000; items for printing and stationery, timber berths, and unforeseen expenses.


William Melville Martin: Could the minister give me any information offhand as to the number of homestead inspectors there are in Saskatchewan at the present time?


William James Roche: There are 30 in Saskatchewan; 63 altogether.


William Melville Martin: Is it not correct that there has been a substantial increase in the number of homestead inspectors? *


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: I am at a loss to understand why so many homestead inspectors should be needed to-day, and why there should be so marked an increase in the number of homestead inspectors since 1911. It cannot be on account of an increase in the number of homesteads which require to be inspected. In one place with which I am familiar there are, or were for a time, four homestead inspectors, and there are scarcely any homesteads in the district. I remember the case of a homestead inspector who came to the Regina land office from the city of Moosejaw. According to information furnished to the House a year or two ago by the Minister of the Interior, this man drew his salary for four or five months, although during that period he did not inspect one solitary homestead. He had a team of horses eating their heads off in a livery stable in the town of Rouleau; during that period the horses were not used except on the occasion of a provincial election in Saskatchewan in 1912. Apparently the department did not know whether to pay this man his salary or not; but as the result of a meeting that took place at Regina between a former inspector of Dominion land agencies at Regina and three or four members of the Conservative patronage committee in that city, it was finally decided to pay the inspector his salary. This gentleman, therefore, drew

about $500 for a period of five months during which he made no inspections. If this matter had come to the attention of the minister, I have no doubt that he would not have allowed it to take the course which it did. The minister was in Regina in 1912 with the present Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers), then Minister of the Interior, when, with a great flare of trumpets, a large meeting was held in that city, and all sorts of promises were made to the people, which have not been fulfilled to this day. If the minister had prolonged his stay he w'ould have seen what this homestead inspector and his team did in that Saskatchewan election.


William James Roche: There has, of course, been an increase in the number of homestead inspectors during the last few yeaTS. As the hon. gentleipan knows, the immigration to Canada subsequent to 1911 was the largest that we ever had. In the year ended March 31, 1913, the immigration to Canada reached the high-water mark, 412,000. In 1914 it fell off about 17,000 to about 385,000. A great many of these new immigrants settled upon the land back a considerable distance from transportation; the Peace river country has been opened up and this necessitated moTe officials. These men after being in the country for three years required inspections when they were applying for patents, and, a;S the hon. gentleman knows, the principal immigration has taken place in the northern, in the Peace river country. The larger number of homestead inspectors were appointed in northern Alberta, although there were some additional, ones in Saskatchewan. While I do not know' anything about the particular instance brought forward by the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin), I can quite understand a homestead inspector sometimes not being engaged in homestead inspection; frequently they are deputed to perform other duties than homestead inspection. Then, again, we often find it more convenient for homesteaders settled at considerable distances from sub-agencies to have inspectors visit them in order to obviate the necessity of homesteaders travelling great distances to make applications for patents. Certain homestead inspectors have been deputed to visit farmers practically five times.


William Melville Martin: That was done before.


William James Roche: Not to the same extent. There is now, in fact, a special homestead

inspector who has been deputed during the laist few years to do this in Saskatchewan and to do nothing else. We have adopted the same principle in Alberta. I will investigate the case mentioned by my hon. friend if he will give me the name of the homestead inspector.
I


John Gillanders Turriff: The minister pointed out that because there was an increased immigration during 1912-13 there was an increase in the number of homestead inspectors. Will he apply the same principle and, because during 1913, 1914 and 1915 there was a *decrease in the number of immigrants, decrease the number of homestead inspectors? Then in southern and central Manitoba and the eastern portions of Saskatchewan that are well settled, and where 95 per cent of the homesteads have been patented, has the number of homestead inspectors been reduced? I know that in my own part of the country, there has not been any reduction in the number, although in the greater part of that country practically all homestead lands have been patented. In connection with the Estevan land office, where Mr. Morrison is the agent, there is practically no homestead inspection to he done. Fully nine-tenths of the inspector's time is devoted to political work; he is canvassing practically all the time. I do not know that he is neglecting his duties, because I do not think there are any duties for him to perform. In the last year or two the land district was divided and a new district formed in Weyburn. It was the practice in the past for the homestead inspector to reside at headquarters, at the town where the land office was. This homestead inspector does not do that. He has been in office since the change of Government four years ago, and still lives in his old home, probably seventy-five miles or so away. He goes home over the week ends, and spends probably half his time either travelling to or from his home or at his home. Again I cannot say he is neglecting his duty, because I do not think there is any work for him to do. I know that in the newer sections of the country there is extra work, but in the settled portions of the West the decrease in the amount of inspection work to be done is quite as great as the increase in the newer sections, so that the total work of inspection could be done just as efficiently without any increase in the number of inspectors. Yet new inspectors are being constantly appointed, and there.are no reductions in the staff in the sections where there has been a falling off in the work to be done. In these sections where the homestead land has all been patented a number of inspectors could be dispensed with without any impairment of the public service.


Mr. McCRANEY:: I should like a further explanation from the minister as to the proceedings at the recent conference between the minister and the premiers of the western provinces and the Canadian Government immigration agents at Chicago. My reason for asking about this is that various reports have been published in the newspapers. I am sorry that the fire destroyed some of my papers, including clippings to the effect that the minister had given assurance, which was made public purposely, to the effect that there would be no conscription in Canada-that no matter what course the British Government took, the Government of Canada would not be guided by it. Since the fire I have looked up the Ottawa Citizen of January 31, and, while the report is very much modified from what appeared in the western papers, even there the idea is given. The despatch is as follows: Chicago, January 30.-Canada governs itself and is not influenced by Great Britain in any way; conscription never will he adopted in the Dominion, and there are no war taxes on Canadian land and never will he. These are some of the assertions here Saturday hy Dr. Wm. J. Roche, Minister of the Interior of Canada, and T. Crawford Norris, Premier of Manitoba, at the meeting of Canadian immigration agents in United States.
I asked the minister a question the other day as to the terms of tiny statement he made, and the minister's reply was as follows:
In addressing a conference of our United States immigration agents recently in Chicago for the purpose of reviewing the immigration situation and making plans for the future, the Minister of the Interior took an opportunity of making a statement refuting the false impression which had been created hy articles which have appeared in certain United States papers regarding conscription.
The answer given by the minister does not touch itbe point that has been published in the western papers, that is, as to any assurance that may have been given to the American public and to intending immigrants that there would be no conscription in Canada. I am bringing this to the attention of the House to give the minister an opportunity of making further explanation, and also for the purpose of expressing the view, which I hold very strongly, witn regard to representations made to those who may purpose coming to Canada. We are at this time at war; the Parliament of

Canada has not made any declaration in favour of conscription and is not likely to; I notice, however, that every man who has a son at the front is in favour of some form of universal service at this time.
I think all the members of this House take the position which I take, that, if necessary in the defence of this country, and for the purpose of winning this war, we should have conscription or anything else required to bring about that end. I have no doubt that the question has been raised in the United States as to whether *there will be conscription in Canada, and it is not at all improbable that immigration .agents may have asked from their minister some assurance on that point. It is not at all improbable also that some expressions of opinion may have been given. We find that many immigrants who went to the United States were born in Germany. They left Germany and went to the ' United States to escape military service; but when they got there they found they were in a country where conscription is the law of the land, because in the American Civil War conscription prevailed, great numbers of Northern troops having been raised in that way. I want to make my own attitude clear, and I want to give the minister an opportunity to state his own position, and to affirm that it would be most unwise that anything should be said in public which would lead those who live in a country where there is compulsory military service to believe that they might come into a country which is now at war and not be subject to like service. I believe that such dispatches as have been sent out misrepresent the opinion of this country, and possibly misrepresent the minister, if they have led anybody to believe that such is the policy of Canada in regard to that question.
One of my reasons for bringing up this matter is that on a previous occasion some representations wrere made to intending settlers which to-day are a source of considerable trouble. The Minister of the Interior is aware that at the present time the province of Manitoba is considering the whole question of teaching of languages other than English in the schools of the province. It appears that in what is known as. the Mennonite reserve, in the southern portion of Manitoba, the Mennonites have been accustomed to conduct private schools in which German only is taught, and which are non-English schools. I have here a letter which was published in one of the Manitoba newspapers of recent date, and

which was written by P. M. Lowe, secretary of the Department of Agriculture, on 23rd July, 1873. It was addressed to representatives of the Mennonite community who were visiting this country, and whose homes were in Russia. One of the assurances given by Mr. Lowe is contained in paragraph 1 of this letter:
An entire exemption from any military service is, by law and Order in Council, granted to the denomination of Christians called " Mennonites."
I think that was a proper thing for Mr. Lowe to say, because under our Militia Act there is an exemption in respect to bearing arms, or to military service, under prescribed conditions. But the dangerous point in Mr. Lowe's letter was with regard to the educational question. I am only quoting this letter now for the purpose of showing how dangerous it is for any person on behalf of this country to make representations upon which any settler may come to this country, and which may become a bill of rights. Here is the clause to which I refer-clause 10:
The fullest privilege of exercising their religious principles Is by law afforded to the Mennonites, without any kind of molestation or restriction whatever, and the same privilege extends to the education of their children in schools.
In the province of Saskatchewan we have, under the Mennonite Church, non-English private schools which teach only the German language. This letter was handed to me as establishing the right of the Mennonites to do so, they having been promised on behalf of the Government of Canada, before they came to this country, that they would be able to exercise their religion and to have the schools to which they had been accustomed in Russia. I am quoting it merely to show how easy it is for some persons in the Government service, no doubt well intentioned, to make a mistake which might be the cause of misunderstandings long after the members of this House had ceased to have any say in public affairs.


William James Roche: I have no objection whatever to give the hon. member the information he desires in regard to what took place in Chicago, although I trust that at this stage it will not result in precipitating a debate on the question if immigration. It would be scarcely apropos in considering an item of contingencies for Dominion lands and parks to Have a discussion with regard to a department, the estimates of which

are not up for discussion to-night. However, out of courtesy to the hon. member, I have no objection to explain the position I took while attending the conference of Dominion immigration agents in Chicago. I do not know whether or not the hon. member was in the House yesterday when the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) read a somewhat similar article, if not the same article, from one of the Canadian papers regarding what I was reported to have stated, and what Premier Norris was reported to have stated in connection with conscription. But upon that occasion I informed the hon. member for Assiniboia that there were no newspaper reporters present at our conference. They are a very enterprising lot of gentlemen, and what they may have surmised I do not know, nor am I responsible. I gave no interview to any newspaper reporter while in the city of Chicago. Who gave out the information of course I do not know, but what I am responsible for is the letter in regard to conscription that has been circulated through some thousands of United States newspapers in order to correct the eroneous impression that had been scattered broadcast for the purpose of preventing immigrants from going from the United States into Western Canada. I felt it was my duty, over my own signature as Minister of the Interior, to dissipate the erroneous impression that our agents had to contend with in their propaganda for securing immigrants. What I stated was assuredly nothing more than what was stated in this House at the instance of the right hon. leader of the Opposition in the debate on the Address. The right hon. the leader of the Opposition pressed the Prime Minister to state once more his position in regard to conscription, and the Prime Minister did state that we have no conscription in Canada, and that we did not propose to have it. That is the effect of the letter which I caused to be circulated in the United States press. It was dated 8th January, 1916, and reads as follows:
Through either lack of knowledge or from some ulterior motive numerous papers in the United States have recently advised American citizens that by going to Canada they incurred the risk of being drafted as soldiers in the present world-wide war. Were these articles confined only to that portion of the pro-German press, which without regard to the truth, have been publishing fictitious news Items intended to injure the trade or stir up friction between the States and Canada, the reports might safely be let go uncontradicted, but when responsible journals are misled into publishing erroneous
information regarding conscription it seems advisable to make an official pronouncement upon the matter.
I therefore beg to advise you that all troops from Canada for the war have gone voluntarily ; that while the Government has the power to enforce conscription, such action has not been considered either advisable or necessary, and that even were conscription introduced it would apply to Canadian citizens only.	.
For your information when dealing with this subject, I may say that many Canadians resident in the United States and many American citizens have crossed into Canada since the outbreak of war, have offered their services, been acoepted, did valuable work and in some cases gave up their life in the cause of liberty and justice.	,
Any publicity you may care to give to this letter will be appreciated by,
Tours faithfully,
W. J. Roche, Minister of the Interior.
I do not think even the hon. gentleman will take exception to the statements contained in that letter, and it was precisely those sentiments that I expressed^ to our own agents there when they were telling me of the obstacles they had to encounter in securing immigrants for Canada. I realized the difficulties the hon. gentleman has spoken of, but at the same time I thought it my duty to correct the absurd rumours that had been designedly circulated in the United States for the purpose of keeping immigrants, from Canada, and which were being taken advantage of by the railways, by land companies, banks, and everybody else interested in preventing immigration to this country.
Mr. OLfVER: I do not think anybody would take exception to the letter my hon. friend has just read, and if it had received the same measure of publicity that the alleged interview received there would be no reason for discussing this matter in the House. Unfortunately, while the alleged interview was given very wide publicity, the letter has not been given anything like the same measure of publicity. Now, the difference between the position of the Premier and the leader of the Opposition, and the position of the minister, supposing the interview had been correct, is this: The Premier and the leader of the Opposition were stating the policy, one of the Government, and the other of his party, at that time. Necessarily, what is the policy of a Government, or of a party, to-day may not be the policy to-morrow, and therefore the statements made by the Premier and the leader of the Opposition were not binding upon the country for the future. But a

statement made by a member of the Government to private individuals in another country who would be prejudiced by that statement is in quite a different category. The one is in the nature of a private contract, the other is in the nature of a declaration of public policy-two different matters altogether. While, therefore, I take no- exception to the letter my hon. friend has read, and which no doubt has been duly distributed, I take the liberty of saying that in view of the very wide publicity that was given to the alleged interview, and the construction that must necessarily have been placed upon it, my hon. friend would have been well advised to have taken an early opportunity in this House of properly expressing his position and that of the Government in regard to this important matter. Of course, it is an easy way out of it to let it go, but it is not the right way, it is not the best way, and it is a way that is liable to produce unfortunate results in the future. The credit of this country at the present time, and for the future, is in a large measure in the hands of my hon. frierid, and since the misrepresentation of the facts of the case has been given wide publicity, I take the liberty of saying that it is his business, at all risks and at all costs, to see that that misrepresentation is publicly and efficiently corrected.


William James Roche: I might point out that while probably tpore publicity has been given in the Canadian press to the remarks that were attributed to me than to the denial, it is quite the contrary in the press of the United States. The letter I have just read has been inserted in thousands of journals in the United States, and that is where we wish to have the facts of the case known. As for the publicity given to the alleged interview, I do not suppose that any words of mine spoken in the city of Chicago would be of sufficient importance to the people of the United States to be printed in thousands of their papers. After all, what statement contained in the alleged interview is the hon. gentleman taking exception to? Is it the statement that it is not the intention of the Canadian Govern-men to enforce conscription?


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend was in Chicago as the representative of Canada, and he is represented as assuming to have given the people of the United States a statement as to the future policy of the Government of Canada. Now, he was not

entitled to do that; it was not proper that he should do it; and as he had been represented as having done it he should have corrected the impression promptly and with all publicity. My hon. friend has said that he has done so, and of course we must accept his statement to that effect. While it is of course desirable that the correction should be made in the United States, it is also desirable that there should be a thorough understanding in Canada as to how far the Government was committed to a certain policy in connection with this country. There is another side to the question, namely, that if the Government of Canada is to be understood as making a declaration that under no circumstances will we put forth the whole strength of our people in support of our cause in this war, Canada, in. the mind of her Allies, will be put in a position that is certainly unfortunate, undesirable, and one that does not tend to success. If we are understood throughout the allied world not to be willing to do everything we can for the cause, not willing to support it to our last man and our last dollar, then we aTe weak where we should be strong, and we are doing ourselves an injury the extent of which cannot very well be estimated.
Mr. WT. M. MARTIN: Could the minister say that whether Peter Brandt is still employed by the Government as a homestead inspector, at Regina or with a roving commission?


William James Roche: He is not in the service of the Government at the present time.


William Melville Martin: Could -the minister say approximately when this man ceased to be employed by the Government?


William James Roche: I cannot tell the hon. member to-night.


William Melville Martin: Perhaps the minister could say why he is not now in the employ of the Government. Was he dismissed?


Mr. ROOHE:: I cannot say just now, but I will get the information for my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: In connection with this very large item it is only right to say that there has been a great decrease in the amount of work required of the officials of the lands department during the last several years; that is also true with regard to timber .administration. Under these circumstances, therefore, when we see that


William Melville Martin: I shall expect
the minister to lay the information about Peter Brandt upon the Table before the Estimates are completed.


William Roche: I will do so.


John Gillanders Turriff: How was the corresponding vote expended last year?


William Roche: I think the vote has been nearly all expended, with the possible exception of some $1,500. Our homestead inspectors, timber inspectors, and ranch inspectors never were as busy as in the past year, for the reason that they were nearly all engaged with the seed grain distribution, and we had to go outside of the department for other officials because we did not have enough to do the work.


Frank Oliver: This vote is for next
year, not for this year?


William Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: We arb not looking for a seed grain distribution next year.


William Roche: I hope not, but we cannot tell; an emergency may arise. We do not wish to add to existing hardships by turning a great many men out of employment. In the Department of the Interior some 219 officials have enlisted; that is, entirely outside of the immigration staff. There were some sixty-eight in the inside service, and fifty-five in the outside service of the Dominion lands branch alone who enlisted.


John Gillanders Turriff: Do I understand the minister to say that he proposes to keep on the extra staff on the possibility that there will be another seed grain distribution at some time in the future?


William Roche: No. We have put off that temporary staff altogether.


John Gillanders Turriff: But the general staff has not been reduced?


William Roche: The general outside staff of the Dominion lands branch?


John Gillanders Turriff: Yes.


William Roche: No.


John Gillanders Turriff: Then the minister does not purpose following the advice of the Minister of Finance to economise in regard to Ms staff?


William Roche: I think that we shall probably have sufficient work to keep the staff going.


Frank Oliver: In regard to seed grain distribution, there is no doubt that what the minister says is very true; there was necessarily a large amount of work to be done last year by reason of the 9 p.m. seed grain distribution, but there is not going to be any seed grain distribution during the coming year. There has been the greatest harvest the country ever saw throughout the whole West. This is a vote to cover the coming fiscal year, and there cannot be any seed grain distribution during that year, whatever there may be in the future.


William Roche: I used that argument because- the hon. gentleman said that the work had fallen off. I said that sue staff was more busily engaged last year than ever before. In addition to the fifty-five who have obtained leave of absence to enlist, we have twenty-five applications before the department now for leave to enlist from the outside service of the Dominion lands branch.


Frank Oliver: While we are very willing to give credit to the members of the service, either inside or outside, who offer their services to the country for military purposes, I think it will be found on examination that the falling off in the business of the department during the last three or four years is very much greater than the percentage of officials who have enlisted. I do not think the percentage of enlistments bears any reasonable proportion to the falling off in the amount of the ordinary business transactions. The reason given by the minister a few moments ago that he did not wish to throw men out of employment, or to disarrange the working of the department, was, I think, the real reason why this vote is kept at the figure at which it appears in the Estimates.
Dominion lands and parks-salary of one carpenter, Mr. John Mason, $914.50.
Mr. RO'CHE: I would move to strike that out, inasmuch as this gentleman has since died, and it is not the intention to fill the vacancy.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Dominion lands and parks-surveys, examination of survey returns, printing of plans, etc., $976,300.
["While we are very willing to give credit to the members of the service, either inside or outside, who offer their services to the country for military purposes, I think it will be found on examination that the falling off in the business of the department during the last three or four years is very much greater than the percentage of officials who have enlisted. I do not think the percentage of enlistments bears any reasonable proportion to the falling off in the amount of the ordinary business transactions. The reason given by the minister a few moments ago that he did not wish to throw men out of employment, or to disarrange the working of the department, was, I think, the real reason why this vote is kept at the figure at which it appears in the Estimates.\nDominion lands and parks-salary of one carpenter, Mr. John Mason, $914.50.\nMr. RO'CHE: I would move to strike that out, inasmuch as this gentleman has since died, and it is not the intention to fill the vacancy."]
George Ewan McCraney: What plans has the
minister for surveys during the coming year?


William James Roche: Do you want to know how this money is going to be expended during the coming year?


George Ewan McCraney: Yes.


William James Roche: There are a great many
items, as follows:
Surveys of base lines and initial meridians, flve parties	$114,000
Subdivision surveys, twenty parties..	332,500
Miscellaneous subdivision surveys in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, flve parties	 75,500
Subdivision surveys in the Railway
Belt, B.C., seven parties	 72,500
Inspection surveys, six inspectors. . . .	38,400
Retracement surveys in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, four parties	    45,500
Retracement surveys of old initial meridians and base lines, one party. 12,000 Miscellaneous surveys by travelling parties, three parties at $6,000. . . .	18,000
Stadia surveys of lakes reported to have dried up in the western provinces, twelve parties at $5,750	..	..	69,000Survey of the Alberta-British Columbia boundary, % share, two parties..	..	7,000Checking measurements on base lines and initial meridians, one astronomical party	
6,000

Topographical survey of Jasper Park,
office expenses	 $4,300
Yukon surveys	 21,800
Levelling, two parties at $6,600, one party at $5,750, one party at $3,500, one party at $3,000, office expenses,
$7,850	 33,300
Outside service, 32 office employees at $1.50 per day, caretaker of warehouse at Edmonton $50 per month, carpenter for surveys laboratory and special surveys division at $65 per
month	 18,900
Manufacture and storage of iron posts
and bench marks	 40,000
Printing and stationery	 20,000
Lithographers' and printers' wages . .	12,600
Lithographic, photographic and sundry
office supplies	 12,000
Freight and express charges..	....	.	.	5,000
Purchase of instruments and canvas
boats for use on survey parties. . ..	17,000
Premiums for surveyors'	bonds	..	.	.	1,000


George Ewan McCraney: What progress has there been compared with the work done last year, or, say, before the war? Has there been any restriction of the work since the war commenced?


William James Roche: There is a reduction of $67,200.


John Gillanders Turriff: About how much was expended last year?


William James Roche: Practically the total
amount.


John Gillanders Turriff: How does this amount compare with the amounts spent in the last three or four years?


William James Roche: There has been a reduction in the cost of the surveys during the last couple of years.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: There is a demand for more work in the Peace river country. I notice that $75,000 is all that is appropriated for Alberta. I am under the impression that there has been a great demand in the northwest section of Alberta for the survey of lands which are not at present under survey.


William James Roche: There is just the one item of $75,000 for subdivision surveys, that is, the base lines, and they are nearly all in the north country. As the hon. member states, a considerable number of requests have been received for surveys in the Peace river district; in fact, the greater portion of the money that is being expended for surveys in the province of Alberta is for surveys in that country.


James McCrie Douglas: I have heard of a number of people desiring to have surveyed lands

which were formerly considered timber lands, but on which fire has destroyed the timber. Is the minister doing anything in the way of having an examination made of such lands which are in close proximity to settled districts, and which might profitably be surveyed and thrown open to the public? I refer particularly to lands along the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway, which is being opened at the present time. Under present conditions the land is not available for entry, although the timber presumed to be on the land is of no merchantable value. There have been many instances of this character close to the settled districts. On another occasion I discussed with the minister the question of some land in Wetaskiwin, which is presumed to be timber land, but which is of no merchantable value whatever; in fact, rather a detriment than an advantage, and yet which, under the regulations, is' not available for homestead entry.


William James Roche: Very recently this matter was gone into between the Forestry Department, the Surveyor General's Department and the Timber Branch. There have been some lands on which a large area of timber has been burned, and the Surveyor General's Department has been given instructions to make special reference to the character of such lands and to lands that might be thrown open for homesteaders. We shall be guided largely by the reports of the surveyors as to what disposition we shall make of those lands. If they are despoiled of their merchantable timber, and are suitable for agriculture, they will be thrown open to homesteaders. If not suitable for agriculture, they will be included in a forest reserve.


James McCrie Douglas: That also applies to certain timber berths which have been cut off. I hope the minister will include in the reports lands along the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway which are close to possible stations, and yet under present conditions cannot be settled.


William James Roche: I should think the holders of those berths would be delighted to surrender them in view of the provincial tax upon land. I have been asked by the holders of certain timber lands in the province of Alberta to disallow the provincial legislation which imposes a tax upon their timber berths. At present they have to pay a tax of so many cents an acre, and it is so difficult foT them to meet this tax that they want to surrender the portion 534
upon which there is no merchantable timber.


James McCrie Douglas: They may not he paying their dues.


Frank Oliver: How many survey parties are going into the Peace river country during the coming summer?


William James Roche: Parties are usually made up in the month of April, although, of course, we estimate now for a certain number of parties.


Frank Oliver: Can the minister tell me how many parties there are and in what direction they are working?


William James Roche: I notice that they are included under " miscellaneous," with the survey parties for the other provinces, and I do not know that I can tell the hon. member how many are intended for the Peace river country.


Frank Oliver: A good deal of surveying was done in the Peace river country last year; but as it is the country that at present is attracting settlement more than any other part of the West, if there is to be a large expenditure on surveys, I hope that the Peace river country will receive fair attention at the hands of the Government.


William James Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: Has a programme been decided upon in regard to surveys along the line of the Great Waterways railway between Lao la Biche and Fort McMurray on the Athabaska? The line is now graded; tracks will be laid during the coming summer; and the time has now arrived when it is desirable that the country along that line should be made available.


William James Roche: We have been and propose to continue doing work along the Canadian Pacific railway, the Grand Trunk Pacific, the Hudson Bay, the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway, and the Edmonton Great Waterways Tailway.


Frank Oliver: Is the Great Waterways railway on the programme for the coming summer?


William James Roche: Yes. A certain amount surveying will be done.


John Gillanders Turriff: Will the minister give
the committee some information in regard to the inspection of the land in that northern country north of the Saskatoon river? Six or seven years ago a party was sent



[Stage Direction]
throughout that country northeast of Edmonton to ascertain the general conditions and to find out whether the country was fit for settlement. It had been understood that a great part of that northern country was unsuited for settlement by reason of the amount of water that was standing on the land. As a result of the investigation made, I believe it was found that the presence of much of this water was accounted for by beaver dams, and that a great deal of it could be drained off without much labour. There is a great stretch of country in northern Saskatchewan that will be settled when we have a big flow of immigration. Has anything been done to ascertain just what that country is like, and to what extent it is suitable for settlement? It may not be adapted to the growing of wheat, as are the southern portions of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, but it may be valuable for purposes of mixed farming if stock-raising and the growing of coarser grains can be carried on successfully.
William James Roche: There is in the Estimates an amount of $18,000 for forest surveys. They are in the nature of exploration work to locate the timber areas, to determine the stand of timber in the country and to define the tracts of non-agricultural land that should be reserved for timber. This work will have to be continued until all the forest lands are inspected. During the year 1915 two parties were working in Manitoba, two in Saskatchewan, and two in Alberta. A strip from 50 to 125 miles in width, covering forest lands immediately north of the prairie land in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, has now been examined and the timber areas located. The area of matured timber is found to be small, but there are extensive areas of immature timber-much of which is upon non-agricultural land-which, if protected, will be of great value, especially as it is in such close proximity to the prairie country. It is proposed in the coming year to have one party work in Alberta, two parties in Saskatchewan and two in Manitoba.


John Gillanders Turriff: I understand that a
certain amount is appropriated for surveys in the Yukon; what-is the purpose of that survey?


William James Roche: Most of the work is in
connection with mining claims. There is a reduction of $6,000 in this item.


Charles Marcil: I happen to be acquainted, with a draughtsman who has been em-

ployed in the Government for fifteen years. He left first-class employment in Montreal to come here-in fact, the department went after him-and has done good and loyal service. I understand that he has been recommended by Dr. Deville several times for promotion, but he still remains in the same class in which he was placed many years ago, and receives the same salary. I should like to know from the minister whether there is any promotion at all in that branch of his department.


William James Roche: I do not know the gentleman to whom my hon. friend refers; Dr. Deville has, of course, recommended quite a number of persons for promotion.


Charles Marcil: This man has been in
his present employment for 12 or 15 years, but his salary remains the same.


William James Roche: Some two years ago 1
asked Dr. Deville to prepare, in order of merit, a list of his employees whom he would recommend for promotion. He sent me twenty names-a first list of ten and a second list of ten-and when promotion has been made from that branch I have invariably followed Dr. Deville's recommendation, taking the employees in order of merit. The gentleman to whom the hon. member for Bonaventure refers may not yet have been reached; his name may be fifth on the list, and I may have promoted only four.


Charles Marcil: Are promotions made
every year, or will this gentleman have to wait until the war is over?


William James Roche: They are made as vacancies occur. We are not creating any new clerkships now, and have not been for the last year or so.
Dominion lands and parks-protection of timber in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, the Northwest Territories and the Railway Belt in British Columbia, tree culture in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and inspection and management of forest reserves, $750,000.


William Melville Martin: The minister will remember that last year there was brought to his attention the matter of the conduct of one R. H. Keay, who lived near the Riding Mountain forest reserve. As the result of an investigation held last year by an inspector sent out for that purpose, it was shown that seventeen different men in that district got homesteads by agreeing to vote Conservative. A further condition of the agreement was that each of the parties was to pay R. H. Keay the sum of $100; accordingly, each gave Keay a promissory note

for that amount. When the matter was up last year the minister stated that Keay had interviewed him, and had been severely reprimanded for his conduct. The minister also said that he would notify these men not to pay the notes-I have not Hansard here, but the impression given was that the men who had signed these notes would be protected in some way. It might be quite impossible for the minister absolutely to protect these men, but they had gathered the impression that the minister was going to protect them and that they would not have to pay the notes. I understood that the notes got into the hands of a Manitoba bank, which has actually secured judgment against some	of	thesepeople. Keay had hypothecated or discounted the notes at the bank and secured the money	on	them.
I would suggest to the minister that if T. R. Ferguson, is still in the employ of the Government, either he or some other person of equally good character might be delegated to investigate R. H. Keay, or that some other steps should be taken to protect these men.


William James Roche: The hon., member has not stated the position quite accurately. It is true that he brought up this matter in the House last session, and that I explained to him that a man named R,. H. Keay, not in the employ of the Government at all, according to, his own statement to me, charged certain Galicians for marking the limits of their homesteads, certain sums of money. He took notes from a number of these people for $100 apiece. When I learned of this I instructed our inspectors to inform these men who had given notes not to pay them, that they were not liable, in my opinion, as I believed that this man had imposed upon them. I said nothing about protecting them in any way further than that. I have learned that Keay has discounted these notes in the bank, and that action has been taken against a number of the makers of the notes and judgment recorded against them. The whole matter, as I informed the hon. gentleman, has been referred by myself to the Justice Department. Although I do not think that we are legally bound to prosecute Keay, the Justice Department are taking criminal proceedings against him.


William Melville Martin: The facts are that this man Keay was a justice of the peace of the province of Manitoba at Asessippi, a village not far from Roblin. A justice of the peace, by reason of his position, is able
to exercise a great influence over these foreigners, who think thaf a man in that position has a great influence in the community. Keay was a most prominent Tory heeler in that district, as I am informed. Why in the world such a man was allowed by the Dominion lands agents to use his position as a justice of the peace to impose upon these people is something I am unable to understand. There is surely something wrong with the administration of the Crown lands in that part of the country when a Tory heeler occupying the position of justice of the peace under the late Roblin Government was allowed to impose on people in that way.


Robert Cruise: Would the minister explain the duties of fire rangers in connection with timber reserves?


William James Roche: Their duties are, in the
first place, to reside upon the forest reserve, where they have little houses. In the reserve there are certain trails that have to be patrolled daily by the rangers. They are supposed to safeguard the forests against fire, to look after the operators of portable and other saw mills operating in the reserves, and to see that they adhere to the timber regulations as to the cuts, and to see that no trespass is made. Then, they must keep in repair the telephone lines in the reserve.


Robert Cruise: Some of these officials do not carry out their duties very well. I do not think they live in the houses built for them. There is not much danger of fire in the winter, and the rangers are required only for a few months in the fall. We have been advised by the Minister of Finance to economize. I think the Minister of the Interior could dispense with many of these fire rangers, at least until the termination of the war. There is not much lumbering going on in the West at this time, and I am quite sure that this economy could be effected without detriment to the public service.


William James Roche: As my hon. friend knows, the mills operate during the winter. He ia probably thinking of fire rangers, not forest rangers. We have a number of fire rangers who are employed during the summer, but we also have the regular permanent staff of forest rangers to whom I referred in the answer I just gave.


Robert Cruise: Is it the duty of the fire ranger or the forest ranger to look after the forests?

, Mr. ROCHE:	We have additional temporary fire rangers during the summer whose sole duty it is to patrol the forests and prevent fires. These are not kept on during the winter.


John Gillanders Turriff: How many fire rangers
are there, for what portions of the year are they employed, and what pay do they draw?


William James Roche: We have a vote for forest work for the year 1916-17 of $750,000. In connection with forest reserves there is a decrease of $4,600. This is due to a slight; rearrangement of the expenditures owing to the necessity of establishing some measure of fire protection in forest districts immediately adjoining reserves where new railroads have been recently built. All other divisions of the work of the branch have been kent down to the estimates of the present year. We have 275 rangers.


John Gillanders Turriff: Are those the temporary rangers?


William James Roche: Yes, in all the western
provinces.


John Gillanders Turriff: For what portion o.f the year are they employed and do they draw expenses?


William James Roche: They are employed for about half the year. They get on the average $100 a month and no expenses.


Charles Marcil: Is there any competition in their appointment or are they appointed by patronage?


William James Roche: They iare appointed in the usual manner of appointing temporary employees.


Charles Marcil: By a patronage committee? I want to know if you have the same system there as in the East.


William James Roche: The men are recommended usually by the supervisors and others.


Charles Marcil: What kind of fire protection is this? Have they any better protection than we have in Ottawa?


William James Roche: There are telephones built in most of those reserves, so that if a fire breaks out word can be communicated to those in the immediate neighbourhood and extra help called out when necessary. There are some places where we have fire appliances, but of course the hon. member will recognize that in a vast forest reserve our aim is prevention rather than cuTe.
tMr. Cruise]


Charles Marcil: Has the minister the most modem method of fighting fires in forests? Is there not something more modern in the United States?


William James Roche: Of course we have no fire appliances such as you have in the cities and, towns.


Charles Marcil: But I would expect more than a telephone.


William James Roche: We have look-out towers where the ranger elm see all over the forest-reserve, and he has to patrol a certain area and to keep a diary as to his actions.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister consider the system satisfactory?


William James Roche: We are improving it from time to time.


John Gillanders Turriff: How does the number of 275 fire rangers compare with the numbers that have been engaged in the past four or five years?


William James Roche: 
John Gillanders Turriff: It would appear from the minister's explanation that the forest reserves have been increased for the purpose of finding employment for a large number of fire rangers. It was one of those fire rangers who told me that to do the work which he formerly did three men were now employed all the year round. The minister pointed out, and I must agree with him to a certain extent, that a dismissed official is probably not the best source of information. But according to the minister's explanation there are a number of extra fire rangers employed. I know some parts of the country where these positions are simply political appointments. While the timber reserves have been very largely increased, everybody who knows anything at all about timber in those

western reserves knows that there is bound to be a large percentage of them that have no commercial timber. The timber may grow up some time to be of some value in holding the snow and preserving the moisture, but, as I understand it, these reserves, especially the new reserves, are away from settlement to a very large extent. The payment of $100 a month to 275 fire rangers is a tremendous expenditure for the benefit we get from it, and it seems to me that if the Government wish to carry out the programme of economy laid down by the Minister of Finance this afternoon, they will have to go more steadily about it.


Robert Cruise: How many file guards have been ploughed during the last season?
I understand it is the policy of the Government to plough fire guards around the timber reserves, and I would like to know if the scheme has been successful.


William James Roche: In the different reserves there was a mileage of 252, and the total expenditure was $2,614.


Robert Cruise: How much was spent in
the Riding Mountain reserve?


William James Roche: I have not the figures subdivided.


Frank Oliver: There is one remark to be made in regard to this vote as in regard to the others, and that is, that notwithstanding the professed economy on the part of the Prime Minister, the Department of the Interior has not reduced its expenditure in connection with these services to meet the stringent financial conditions that have arisen from the war. It is another case of "Do as I say, not as I do."
Mr. 'CRUISE: It is very important to the settlers in the western country that these timber reserves should be protected. I have discussed with several of the leading men in the northern district the question of how best to go about it, and we have come to the conclusion that instead of ploughed fire guards there should be some co-operation between the Provincial Government, the Dominion Government, and the municipalities, in the direction of building highways between the settlements and the reserves. These highways would act as fire guards in the sense that when a fire occurred the settlers would be enabled to get to the scene of the fire more rapidly. In the Riding Mountain reserve at present if a fire starts there are no good roads to enable the settlers and fire rangers to get to it. I do not think that the Dominion Gavernment alone should pay for the highways, but they might join with the Provincial Government and the municipalities in building them round the reserves. I am certain that they would be of great benefit in the way of protecting the reserves. I think this matter was brought to the ministers's attention before by my opponent, Mr. Campbell.


William James Roche: I do not recollect having
this matter brought to my attention before, but I see the force of the hon. gentleman's remarks. Of course, the building of highways does not come within the jurisdiction of the Dominion Government, but I recognize that the question of co-operation between the Provincial Governments and the Dominion Government is well worthy of consideration. I will take the suggestion into consideration, and see what steps can be taken to meet the hon. gentleman's wishes.
Dominion lands and parks-protection of reindeer herds, $3,000.


Frank Oliver: Where is the reindeer herd now?'


William James Roche: I am afraid the reindeer
herd is practically non est. I am instructed that the number has been reduced to a solitary one. The experiment has been a failure right from the start. I would remind hon. members that it was not started under my jurisdiction, but before I became minister. We have one reindeer there now, and we aTe taking good care of it, but we do not expect a renewal of this vote.


Frank Oliver: Would it not be well to cut it out this year?


William James Roche: We may not expend the money this year.


Frank Oliver: Could we not persuade the minister to drop this item?


William James Roche: It is very small.


Frank Oliver: It would be an evidence of good faith in reduction of the Estimates.


John Gillanders Turriff: It would be better to bring that reindeer down and board it at the Chateau Laurier.
To pay expenses connected with water-power investigations and reports in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and the Railway Belt in British Columbia, $164,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: I would ask the minister to give us some idea of what was done last year and how much was expended.


William James Roche: I have a statement of the work that we propose to spend this money-on during the ensuing year, and I find there is a reduction of $30,000 in the Estimates. It is to be expended under the following heads:	British Columbia hydrographic survey, Manitoba hydrographies survey, international waters, storage in the Winnipeg river basin, power surveys, reports, etc., in Manitoba; power surveys, reports, etc., in Alberta and Saskatchewan; storage in Saskatchewan basin, administration of small water-powers, inspection of construction, drainage and reclamation, consulting engineers, head office and administration expenses, publication of reports, special engineering report oh the water-power administration in the railway belt of British Columbia; hydrographic survey work, northern British Columbia, along the Grand Trunk Pacific in the Peace river block and Yukon territory; co-operation with the Nova Scotia Water-Power Commission. This was all spent, except a few hundred dollars, last year, and a good deal of this same work will be continued during the ensuing year.


John Gillanders Turriff: There is no doubt that the work is very important. I am not finding fault with the investigation of water-powers which can be utilized commercially as long as the money is well expended, but it seems, to me a very large amount, although somewhat smaller than last year.


William James Roche: There is no new work.


Frank Oliver: I would be inclined to go a little further than my hon. friend from Assiniboia. >
While this work is entirely desirable under favourable conditions, it is a work of investigation, upon the result of which will be based investment in the development of water powers at a later date. At the present time, and under existing financial conditions, there is no pressure of demand for the opportunity of investing money in the development of water-powers. Therefore there is no pressure for this expenditure at the present time. It is certainly one amount in the Estimates that could be very greatly curtailed this year without the public suffering any damage whatever. That is not finding any fault with the purpose of the vote or with the work that has been done. But it is not at the moment opportune or pressing, and if there is any desire on the part of this department to economize, it should be shown by the cutting down of this particular vote.


William James Roche: I have given instructions to the officers preparing the Estimates to do the work with regard to the strictest economy. I have a memorandum prepared by the head of the Water-Powers Branch, in which he says that if there is any further reduction of the Estimates, it will simply paralyse their work. He says:
In response to the Deputy Minister's instructions respecting- the reductions in the Estimates ... I beg to state that... I would recommend under all the circumstances, a further reduction of $15,000 be made. This will make a total reduction of $30,000 from our Estimates for the last fiscal year, a little over one-sixth. If any further reduction is made it will simply paralyse our work. It should be stated that the Estimates, as submitted on the 18th September last, $179,000 represented a reduction of $15,000 of last year's Estimates and covered work that we considered to be absolutely essential in the best interests of our water-power administration. There were many important matters which we were exceedingly anxious to provide for, but which we considered might reasonably be postponed until after the war. It should further be pointed out that we have at the present time 16 members with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, their salaries representing a total annual expenditure of $20,650, which is, of course, a first charge on our Estimates. The further reduction of $15,000 recommended herein makes our Estimates for this year $164,000, which total amount should be distributed in the proper proportion among the seventeen items, about which detailed information was furnished you on September 18 last.
There are no new works to be engaged upon during the coming year, or provided for in these Estimates.


Frank Oliver: To what extent is there a prospect of the reasonably early development of any one of the water powers which have been under investigation by the department during the past year?


William James Roche: A great deal of the work that has been carried on in the past year has been on the Winnipeg river. Power is being developed there very extensively. The Provincial Government of Manitoba has asked us not to alienate any further water powers without their consent. They desire to make use of these powers; they have appointed a public utility commissioner with jurisdiction over such matters. We have been acting in co-operation with the commissioner there, and everything that has been done by the department has received his sanction and support. The Winnipeg river is a river on which there are enormous possibilities with regard to development of power, and some of the existing companies are applying for permission to further increase their water-

powers. Applications are now before the department for other power rights on the same river, but we have not dealt with them pending full information as to the results of these investigations.


Robert Cruise: What is the policy of the Government in dealing with these water-powers? Is it to dispose of them to private corporations, or to hold them for the people?


William James Roche: As I have just intimated, the Provincial Government of Manitoba has asked us not to alienate any further water-powers without the consent of that Government. There is an application before the department now from a corporation, or from individuals, and it has received the consent and endorsement of the Provincial Government of Manitoba.


Charles Marcil: Will the same policy be adopted in the other provinces?


William James Roche: We have not had any similar requests from the other provinces.


Charles Marcil: If you have no requests, do the Government not consider that these water powers should be kept for the public and not handed over to private corporations?


William James Roche: Is the hon. gentleman referring to any particular province?


Charles Marcil: No. I see that the vote
covers the four western provinces, and my question is whether, after you have investigated and developed these water-powers, you are prepared to hand them over to a private company rather than to reserve them for public purposes?


William James Roche: What does the hon. gentleman mean by reserve them for public purposes?


Charles Marcil: A water-power might be
reserved as the public utility of a city or town, to be kept under public control and not handed over to a private corporation.


William James Roche: Somebody has to develop
them. If a province is willing to see them developed by a legitimate corporation, we have regulations which they must conform to. Ever since this Government came into power I do not think there have been any large water-power concessions granted to any private individuals. There was one small concession granted to a company, but [DOT] outside of that I do not think there have been any.


William Melville Martin: I would like to direct the minister's attention to the question of diverting some of the waters of the Saskatchewan Tiver through the southern part of Saskatchewan. I do not know whether any money was spent on that work last year, but I understand that two or three years ago the Dominion Government had surveys made for the purpose of ascertaining whether it was feasible to divert wateT from the Saskatchewan river to some of the southern parts of the province where water is badly needed. I remember very well that in the local elections in Saskatchewan, in 1912, the people in the southern part of the province, wherever they got the idea from-and it must have been from supporters of the hon. minister-were firmly convinced that before long they would have streams of water from the Saskatchewan river running across their farms and into the towns where water was scarce.
I did not pay much attention to that promise myself, because my experience with this Government is that it is long on promises and short on fulfilment so far as my part of the country is concerned.


William James Roche: Who made the promise?


William Melville Martin: I do not know, but I do know that some of the minister's friends made the promise on the platform. The promise was certainly not made by Liberals. I certainly didn't make any such promise. I didn't believe tne story at all myself, but the matter was very generally discussed by the people in the southern part of Saskatchewan. I think the Government has actually spent some money on surveys, though I believe nothing has been lone during the last year or two. So far as this Government was concerned, I believe it was simply a fake election promise. I shall be glad to be informed by the minister whether anything can be done to furnish the people in that part of the country with the water which they are badly in need of. This would be a very proper work for the Government to perform.


William James Roche: We can discuss this more fully on the next item, but I (have a memorandum here to the effect that sur-verys were made by the Department of the Interior in 1913-14 showing the feasibility of diverting water for the use of the cities of Moosejaw and Regina and the surrounding country. These surveys were made to enable the department to deal with a 'request from the Saskatchewan Govern-

ment for a. reservation of water from that stream to assist in the development of that region. No direct application for permission to divert and use the water has yet been made by the Saskatchewan Government, and there is no apparent necessity for any further survey work by this department.
Mr. MeCRANEY: Has the minister any information in his department in regard to some negotiations between the corporation of Prince Albert and the Dominion Government respecting water-power at Cole falls? I understand that the corporation entered into some big scheme which they were not able to carry through, and that they applied for assistance to the Dominion Government.


William James Roche: In regard to that I might say that the appropriation asked for under this heading has been considerably reduced from that requested for the past fiscal year. The studies in connection with storage in the Saskatchewan river basin were instituted at the request of the city of Prince Albert in connection with the hydro-electric undertaking of that city at Cole falls on the North Saskatchewan river. The question of profitable hydroelectric development on both the North and South Saskatchewan rivers is wholly dependent on the storage possibilities which may be available throughout the watershed. At present, the low winter flow forms the decisive feature in the consideration of hydro-electric development on the rivers throughout the central
10 p.m. portion of the river basin, namely, throughout Southern and Central Alberta and Saskatchewan. The continuous demand for cheap power, which is in evidence in all the cities throughout the West, calls for every effort being put forth to meet the same. Whether this cheap power is obtainable from hydroelectric sources, is dependent upon the storage resources and possibilities of the basin. The extent of these is being determined by means of reconnaissance surveys, the continuation of which this appropriation is designed to cover.


John Gillanders Turriff: Did the Dominion Government promise to assist in the scheme for diverting water from the South Saskatchewan river to the cities of Moosejaw and Regina?


William James Roche: Will the hon. member ask that question on the next item?


Frank Oliver: Has the minister knowledge of any proposed water-power on the Athabaska river? I presume that if there was any such project on hand, the department would have knowledge of it.


William James Roche: I do not think there is
anything in the Estimates for work on the Athabaska river. I have no information on this subject; if there has been any correspondence on the matter, it has not been brought to my attention.
, Mr. OLIVER:	Would the minister be
good enough to make a note of my inquiry so that at, some later date when his Estimates are up I can get information as to whether there has been an application of this kind. If any such application has been made, I should be glad to be informed of it.
Dominion lands and parks-for surveys and works under the Irrigation Act, etc., including ?400 for P. Marchana as auditor of disbursements made by companies acquiring lands under the irrigation system, $200,000.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: The minister is aware that irrigation districts are being formed in Alberta. One was known as the Taber Irrigation district. In order to raise sufficient money to build the ditches and provide the water, the whole district was bonded; but an obstacle was met in the school lands there. These school lands had been sold, but had not been paid for by the parties who had agreed to purchase them at sales held within the last two or three years, and the lands are still practically in the possession of the Government. This is a serious matter to that district, as it prevents the carrying out of this particular system. The money can be secured,
I understand, from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company if the company can secure a lien on all the lands, but the school lands are standing in the way. I understand the matter was brought to the attention of the minister, and that the statement was made that if the Alberta Government would pass an Order in Council this Government would introduce legislation to overcome the difficulty. I should like to know if that is true, and whether anything has been done.
Mr." ROCHE: It is quite true. Mr. MacLean, the. provincial secretary of Alberta, bad an interview with myself and the officials of the department, at which he promised to get the Provincial Government to pass .an Order in Council. We

were then to get legislation confirming it in connection with the school lands. The initial action, however, has not yet been taken by the Provincial Government.


Frank Oliver: What is the character oi the surveys under this vote, and what is theiir purpose?


William James Roche: The expenses are divided as follows: Permanent office staff, Calgary, $34,150; permanent field staff, irrigation (Calgary), $27,300; permanent field staff, stream measurement, $19,200; irrigation administration, field work, $18,020; irrigation surveys, field work, $19,705; stream measurement, summer field work, $35,700; stream measurement, winter field work, $13,860; expenses head office staff, Ottawa, $10,000; publication of reports and printing, stationery, supplies, etc., $10,000; expenses istaff, Calgary, $3,500; new field equipment, instruments, transport, camp equipment, office supplies, Calgary, $5,000; incidentals, $3,565.


Frank Oliver: That, of course, gives the details of the expenditure, but what I want to get at is what purpose is being served by the work that is being done.


William James Roche: As the hon. member will see, we have a reduction of $68,350 in the Estimates for the ensuing year, that is, a reduction of 25 per cent from the sum appropriated for the current year. The memorandum which I have is as follows:
The sum asked for will provide for carrying on only the work which is considered absolutely essential, including:
1.	The inspection of existing and proposed irrigation and water supply projects.
This is required by law in order to determine the feasibility of proposed projects and to ascertain whether or not licenses are utilizing, or are in a position to utilize, the water to which they are entitled by license. No further reductions can be made without abandoning this work in whole or in part.
2.	The continuation of the work of stream measurement.
The determination of the quantity of water available in the rivers and streams of the prairie provinces is the basis of all irrigation and water supply development and is absolutely essential to the proper administration of the Irrigation Act. Stream measurements must be carried on continuously for a long period of years in order to be of real value and any interruption seriously affects the value of the record. This work has been carried on systematically since 1908 and has been gradually extended as funds were made available so as to cover practically all streams in the southern part of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan and the principal streams in the northern portion.
The Western Canada Irrigation Association as well as the International Irrigation Congress have repeatedly urged the continuance of this work uninterruptedly.
3. The completion of the classification of land in the eastern section of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's irrigation tract near Bassano.
About one-half of this tract was classified during 1915 and it is expected that the remainder can be completed during 1916 if funds are provided.
The works for the irrigation of some 400,000 acres of land in this tract are now completed
and the system is in readiness for operation and the land is open for sale and settlement. The company is anxious to avoid the mistakes and serious misunderstandings which attended the colonization of the western section of this tract and this department is therefore inspecting and classifying as irrigable of non-iivi-gable all the land prior to its being offered for sale. In the western section this was not done with the result that this department had finally to intervene between the company and dissatisfied purchasers and to classify the land after it had been sold, thus necessitating readjustment of most of the sales-contracts ana water-agreements. The company is at present carrying on an active campaign for colonizing this' tract, which is at present waste and unproductive land, and if this department should now discontinue this work of classification, it would very seriously retard the settlement and development of the land.
4. The completion of surveys on the proposed Lethbridge northern irrigation project near Lethbridge, Alta.
In this district immediately north of Lethbridge some 100,000 acres of land can be economically irrigated by water taken from Oldman river near Macleod. This district has suffered severely from drought in past years, particularly in 1910 and 1914, when there was almost complete crop failure. The settlers have witnessed the prosperous development of the lr-rigated district of Coaldale, east of Lethbridge, and have repeatedly petitioned the Dominion Government to undertake the preliminary surveys necessary to determine the feasibility and probable cost of irrigating their own lands.
Surveys were accordingly undertaken m 1914 and carried on throughout 1915, which leave no doubt of the feasibility of irrigating these lands The work is not yet sufficiently completed to enable the settlers to form an irrigation district under the law enacted by the provincial legislation in 1915 at their request, and if the survey work is now abandoned no such distriot can at present be formed.
The Western Canada Irrigation Association, at its session at Bassano, Alberta, in Novem-. ber, 1915, passed a resolution strongly urging the' Dominion Government to complete these surveys in order that this district might be more fully developed. A similar resolution was passed urging the continuation of survey work to develop the feasibility of irrigating land south of Lethbridge and tributary to St. Mary and Milk rivers, but this work cannot be continued with the limited sum asked for m this reduced Estimate.
This practically is the explanation.


William Ashbury Buchanan: A great deal of money is being expended on irrigation surveys. I am inclined to think that the Government, in districts where there is a lack of mois-

ture, and at the same time where the soil is suitable for agriculture, might go into the establishment of these small irrigation systems. In nearly all the western states the American Government has undertaken the establishment of irrigation systems; lands have thus been reclaimed and settled, and the republic has gained by reason of that policy. In my own district there is what is known as the Iron Springs project, to supply water from the Old Man river. It was made clear to the people there that they would have to form themselves into an irrigation district like the Taber district, bond the district and practically provide the system themselves. Now there exists amongst people who have studied the question quite a strong opinion that the Government might very well go into the establishment of these systems instead of placing the responsibility upon the people or giving the privilege to private companies ; because the experience of the United States warrants us in saying that the adoption of such a system in western Canada would be beneficial to the country.
I am merely making this suggestion, and I would ask the minister whether the Government has anything in view in that direction after spending so much money on irrigation surveys. During the past year a number of survey parties were through the southern part of Alberta gathering information about the possibility of irrigating large sections of that country.
Mr. ROCHE,: We have been requested to undertake this as a Government work. A deputation which came down here from that district merely asked us to do what we are doing now with this Estimate, that is, to allow them to form a company themselves, bond the district, raise the funds, and work in co-operation; but our system as it is at present differs from that in the United States, where the Government has undertaken such work as' a Government enterprise, although it charges the people the cost just the same. We are carrying on these surveys at the expense of the public treasury; the result of them is given gratis to the farmers, and they can carry on the work under provincial legislation.
Dominion lands and parks-Canadian National Parks, $349,670.


Frank Oliver: What information can
the minister give with regard to reported mishandling of funds in connection with the administration of Jasper park during the last summer?


William James Roche: Charges were made against the administration of Jasper park so far as certain officials were concerned, but I do not think they involved any misappropriation of funds.


Mr. BOULAY:: Where are the national
parks of Canada situated?


William James Roche: Our national parks are
situated in western Canada. The parks in the Rocky mountains are: Jasper park, Rocky Mountains park, Waterton Lakes park, Buffalo park, Elk Island park Yoho and Glacier park, Revelstoke park.


Herménégilde Boulay: What is the use of these parks?


William James Roche: I think they are of great
utility. They attract a large number of foreign tourists and cause to be spent in Canada much money that would not otherwise come into the country. As an illustration, I may point out that during the last year some 50,000 foreign tourists visited the Rocky mountains park alone. If they spent only $100 each, that would mean that $5,000,000 was spent in Canada by those visiting this park. I think it is well worth while doing something to beautify our parks, which are one of the greatest advertisements that Canada could possibly have.


Herménégilde Boulay: Could not some of them
be established in eastern Canada as well?


William James Roche: The Dominion Government do not own the lands in eastern Canada.


James McCrie Douglas: I should like to obtain some information with regard to charges of misappropriation in connection with the administration of Buffalo park.


William James Roche: The following memorandum was prepared in connection with tne administration of Buffalo park:
Last August Mr. Silas Carpenter, Assistant Commissioner of Dominion Police, located at Banff, was instructed to make an investigation of conditions at Buffalo park. As a result, the following officers were dismissed: W. E. D. McTaggart, superintendent; W. Terpenning, gate-keeper; W. Douglas, farmer. The evidence collected indicated that these men were Joint owners in a farm close to Buffalo park and that they used Government seed oats and Government teams and implements for its cultivation. It was also shown that they were joint owners in a herd of cattle which grazed on the Buffalo park range. There were also a number of minor Irregularities. In addition, the superintendent failed to collect the amount of an over-payment he had made to the Imperial Lumber Company in connection with the purchase of lumber. It is calculated that the over-payment amounted to about $600. Instructions have been issued for the issue of a

writ against this company for the recovery of the money. An equivalent amount of seed oats has been returned to the department, and salary cheques of those three men covering a month and eight days are still held by the department. There are a number of other po nts upon which additional information is desired, and Mr. Carpenter has been instructed to make a further investigation. Mr. A. G. Smith has been appointed as superintendent in succession to Mr. MeTaggart. Permanent appointments have not yet been made to fill the other vacancies. Mr. W. H. Walker is acting as general foreman and farmer, and Mr. W. Gano is acting as gate-keeper and rider.


James McCrie Douglas: Is there any item in
that memorandum connecting the names of Mr. Campbell and Mr. Hudson of Wain-wright with this nefarious scheme?


William James Roche: No, nothing has come out so far indicating that either of these gentlemen has been implicated in any way. As the memorandum states, Mr. Carpenter has been instructed to conduct a further investigation.


James McCrie Douglas: It is my opinion that
Mr. Campbell was implicated in some indirect way in the erection of a barn in the park. However, that is mere rumour.
I trust that I may get definite information later, when the minister has the whole facts as contained in Mr. Carpenter's report.


John Gillanders Turriff: Four or five years ago, when the late Government went out of power, provision had been madh for placing a number of buffalo on the Moose mountain timber reserve, and three or four sections were obtained for that purpose. About the time that the change of government took place, or possibly after this Government came into power, tenders were called for the fencing of this land. The Moose mountains, which are in my constituency, have come to be a popular summer resort. People come there from different parts of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta. I was up there one Sunday last summer, and in one part of the park I saw about 220 automobiles, which had come from all parts of the surrounding country, and many of which had been driven seventy-five miles in order that the owners might spend a pleasant day at the park. It had been decided years ago to put a herd of buffalo in that park, but as the park was not fenced, and the buffalo were somewhat wild, it was feared that they might escape and cross the boundary line, which is only fifty miles to the south. The buffalo at Banff have been fenced in for many years, .and are very quiet, so that there would not be the slightest danger in bringing them down to
the Moose mountains. It is hardly necessary to say that the presence of fifty or one hundred head of buffalo would be a great drawing card for that summer resort. If the park were fenced in and even twenty-five or thirty buffalo were brought down, a very good purpose would be served. Perhaps the minister can tell how many buffalo there are in Buffalo park.


William James Roche: Over 2,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: It is isdimptty 'a question, therefore, of carrying out the idea which the late Government had in view when they went out of power. I should be glad to get an assurance from the minister that during the coming summer the necessary fencing will be done, and that a number of buffalo will be brought into the Moose mountain district. When this Government came into power they sent one or two men to Buffalo park to find out something about handling buffalo, but since that time nothing has been done. Every yeaT when I am out there the people ask me what the Government are going to do, and I have never been able to give them a satisfactory answer. I hope now that the minister will put me in a position to give a satisfactory answer to the people in the vicinity of Moose mountain. Let me assure the minister it would be a great advantage to that whole southern district of Saskatchewan. Few of those people have ever seen, a wild buffalo, and it would give them a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction to have a herd established there.


William James Roche: Of course, it was recognized some time ago that sooner or later the large herd at Buffalo park would, have to be broken up and distributed to other parts. It is true that a small area was purchased -with the idea of eventually removing the buffalo to the district referred to. I understand it is in a forest reserve, and that is why so many people go up there, owing to its beautiful location. The reason the Government have not thus far carried out the original project is that the land has been pronounced by the inspectors unsuitable for buffalo, as there is too much timber on it. A recommendation has been made to us to purchase some land in the Indian reserve adjoining, but I am not able to say whether these lands have been surrendered. The Indians, of course, would have to give their consent and surrender the lands. My hon. friend asks me to promise that something will be done this year. Owing to my efforts to economize, I am afraid I cannot give a

promise of that kind. Hon. members criticise me for not reducing the expenditure under this and other items; but this project would necessitate a considerably larger expenditure.


John Gillanders Turriff: The minister is wrong
in two particulars-


George Perry Graham: Only two?


John Gillanders Turriff: -in connection with this one item. One is that, I do not care who the inspector is, if he reports that that land is unsuitable owing to the amount of timber on it, he does not know what he ds tallbing about. I lived beside that place for many years, and the timber on it would not hurt anybody or anything. I think the difficulty was not that the land was not satisfactory, but that there was not enough of it, not more than four sections; and so it was suggested that a part of the present Indian reserve should be secured. Two Indian reserves on the west end of Moose mountain were released, the land sold and the Indians brought over to the present reserve, which is more to the east. I doubt if it would now be possible to get a release of that part of the reserve. But there is any amount of land in the vicinity that could be secured that would be satisfactory. My hon. friend speaks of economizing, but this is the first item in which he proposes any reduction. We have passed millions of dollars to-night for items in which there has been no retrenchment, and the total expense will be greater than in years gone by. If my hon, friend wishes me to practise economy I am willing to do it, and if it is from motives of economy that this park is not stocked with buffalo,
I am willing to accept that answer; but I do not see why that particular item of expenditure should be cut out altogether.


William James Roche: It was not included last year.


John Gillanders Turriff: I know that, but the Government bought that land, and called for tenders for putting up the fence. They sent their employees to Buffalo park to learn how to handle the buffalo, and they have now cut all that out. It was not cut out on account of economy; why it was cut out I do not know. My hon. friend now says it was because the land was reported on as being unsatisfactory owing to the timber on it. That is not a sufficient reason. There is a large area of open land in it, 
the land is all suitable for running domestic cattle, and any land that is suitable for running domestic cattle is suitable for buffalo. I would ask the minister, in his capacity as Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, if any attempt has been made to secure a release of the lands recommended by the inspector to be secured from the Indian reserve.


William James Roche: I am not sure whether such an attempt has been made or not. The information given to me was that, after an inspection of the land, it was pronounced unsuitable for the keeping of buffalo, largely on account of there being too much timber. That may or may not be so. I have no personal knowledge of the land, and I will not make a promise to the hon. member to respond to his request by including anything in the Estimates for this purpose. I have cut down the Estimates for the Canadian National Parks for this year by $300,000, and I do not see how I could reduce it further. I do not want to add to it by including an item for the purchase of lands for something that is not pressing for the present year.


John Gillanders Turriff: I quite agree with what the minister has said, that this is not a measure of prime importance; and war time, when we ought to be economizing, is certainly not a time to buy new lands and thus add to the expenditure. But here the land was purchased, and the excuse given is that it is not suitable. 1 am not going to press the matter, because it is a small matter after all, and I am quite willing that the Government should economize. But it looks to me as if they were economizing in this matter and were not attempting to economize in larger matters.


James McCrie Douglas: Will the minister give details as to the number of animals in the Wain wright, Buffalo, and Elk Island parks?


William James Roche: There are 2,080 in the Buffalo park.


James McCrie Douglas: There are some other animals besides buffalo in the Wainwright park, are there not?


William James Roche: Yes, the animals in Elk Island park are: Buffalo, 108; moose, 39; elk, 50; and mule deer, 6. In Buffalo park: Buffalo, 2,080; moose, 17; elk, 57; mule deer, 100; and antelope, 3.


James McCrie Douglas: Is anything being done at present in regard to the sale of buffalo

meat in connection with the animals slaughtered through accident or in any other way in these parks?


William James Roche: There were a few
slaughtered, and tenders were called for regarding the disposition of the meat.


James McCrie Douglas: These tenders did not include the hides or the heads?


William James Roche: No.


James McCrie Douglas: What is done with these?


William James Roche: The heads we have at present are being mounted; they have not been disposed of.


James McCrie Douglas: How many animals have been slaughtered during the past year?


William James Roche: Only five or six.


John Gillanders Turriff: Do I understand that the minister agrees to the suggestion that between now and next session he will look into the matter I referred to, and see whether he can secure some additional land on Moose Mountain, or whether such land would be suitable for a small herd of buffalo, so that next year we may have some assurance that something is going to be done to carry out the intention of the Government announced a few years ago to make some use of the land that has been secured?


William James Roche: Exception has been taken to-night to the Government's policy respecting another matter, and I would not like to say what may be included in our Estimates next -session. But I will promise to have a re-inspection of the lands we already possess, and to get all information I possibly can on the subject.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I would like to draw the attention of the minister to some complaints I have had about the grazing lease in the Waterton Lakes park. I had considerable correspondence regarding the matter, but unfortunately it was destroyed in the fire in the Parliament buildings. I think the lease is held by -a man named West, and the complaint is that the people in the surrounding district, mostly small farmers, are unable to get any of this land for grazing purposes unless they go to him and pay toll. There is a great deal of indignation in the country surrounding the park on that account. It is also charged that the first application for this lease was not given consideration, and that the man who secured the lease was a favourite, and he prevents other people from getting
access to the grazing land except at a price fixed by him. I may be mistaken in some of the statements I have made, because I have not the correspondence, but that is my recollection of the complaints made by the settlers.


William James Roche: The hon. member is incorrect in stating that any lease has been issued for any portion of the Waterton Lakes park. No leases axe issued whatever, only permits, and no exclusive privilege is given to any man. .


Frank Oliver: With regard to what the ihon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) has said as to the establishment of a small herd of buffalo at Moose mountain, I would make the suggestion that the buffalo should be scattered in different localities in case of fire attacking any particular pasture, or in case of disease getting into any particular herd. It would be a form of insurance of the herd to have them scattered in as many localities as possible. The reason why no advantage was taken of the locality of Moose mountain at the beginning was the reason given by the hon. member for Assiniboia. The situation is considered to be very suitable in every way, but at that time it was thought to be too close to the international boundary, and that there was - a possibility of losing the animals that might be herded there. It was always contemplated that there should be a portion of the herd located there. I would like to ask who is in charge of Jasper park?


William James Roche: A man from the head office of the name of Johnston.


Frank Oliver: Who was in charge before him?


William James Roche: Mr. Harvey is acting superintendent.


Frank Oliver: There was a Mr. Maynard Rogers in charge at one time, was there not?


William James Roche: Yes, but he has enlisted for overseas service. He was superintendent of the park.


Frank Oliver: Who succeeded him?


William James Roche: Mr. Harvey is acting in his absence. There was another man of the name of Sparks, who had the general management, but under the supervision of Mr. Harvey, who was appointed by the department to act in the absence of Mr. Maynard Rogers.


S48 COMMONS
Frank Oliver: Is Mr. Sparks connected with the park now?


William James Roche: Mr. Sparks has ibeen transferred to Wainwright park.


Frank Oliver: The case of Mr. Rogers, who, I see, has been appointed aide-de-camp to General Lessard, would come within the discussion that took place this afternoon. Does Mr. Rogers draw his salary as superintendent of the park as well as his allowance as a lieutenant-colonel?


William James Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: 
William James Roche: 


Frank Oliver: I suppose the minister does not know what the allowance of a lieutenant-colonel is?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: My information is that Col. Rogers, although he volunteered at an early stage of the war, has not yet been fortunate enough to be able to give his services in the fighting line; in fact, he has been on duty in England ever since going across there. In face of that fact it seems to me that Mr. Rogers comes high.


William Ashbury Buchanan: What is the system followed in awarding these grazing leases in the park? Is it open to the public in the surrounding district to make application?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Ashbury Buchanan: Are they notified
publicly?


William James Roche: Any person in the immediate neighbourhood who desires may ascertain what the regulations are. The inspector, or the man in charge of the park, estimates as to the number of stock a given area can maintain, and then he will issue permits to any persons applying for the same to cover that area. There is no exclusive privilege given to any one man. I do not know whether they take them in accordance with their order of priority, but the superintendent of the park grants permits when applied for covering the amount *of stock he estimates the park can carry.


William Ashbury Buchanan: Is there a limit to the amount of stock a man can run under a lease?


William James Roche: As much as the area will
maintain.


Frank Oliver: 
William James Roche: 
Frank Oliver: I imagine that under
ordinary circumstances ilt would toe possibly out of place to say anything in this connection under these estimates. But we must consider Col. Rogers as an officer of the Interior Department so long as the Interior Department is paying him $2,500 a year salary. He has been given Heave of absence with salary in consideration of the military (services that he is (able to render and that be is being called upon to render. Where the salary is as large as it is in this (case, the question of the value of Col. Rogers' military service anight very welM come up for consideration on the part of the department, from this point of view, that, if Col. Rogers is not rendering the most valuable military service, he might very well be permitted to depend) upon hais military pay. So long as he is (satisfactory to the military authorities, we have nlo fault to find with him, tout if he is not rendering valuable military 'service, it sesmis to toe a little out of the way that he should he drawing such a handsome salary from the Interior Department in consideration of the military service that he does not render. This is not a pleasant matter to speak of; but, 'as a matter of fact, Col. Rogers was placed in command of a toat-talion at Valcartier, displacing the colonel who had raised the battalion, and I am given to understand that, on his arrival in England, it was found necessary to displace

him, 'because foe -was not found to foe efficient, and itfoiait he has been in what is called the reserve (battalion ever 'since foe arrived in England. I have no criticism to offer of the military arrangements; but I do submit that an employee of the Interior Department, having in good faith, of course, offered his services, and these services not having been found to be of serious value, the Interior Department is entitled to consider whether it is warranted in giving him further leave with salary.


William James Roche: I do not think I would be justified in selecting Col. Maynard Rogers and assuming from what the hon. gentleman has stated that he is not performing sufficient military service to entitle him to double pay. He has been treated exactly in the same way as every other civil servant who enlisted prior to the first of November. The general Order in Council, under which all civil servants enlisting prior to that time were allowed their civil pay, is the one governing in this case, and the pay allowed to Col. Rogers is exactly in accordance with it. I take it that as Minister of the Interior I have nothing to do with Col. Rogers' military service, be it satisfactory or unsatisfactory, and I am not going to butt into the Militia Department to find out whether it is or not. I think it would be unreasonable to ask me as Minister of the Interior to inquire whether Col. Rogers' military service is satisfactory or not and I would not consider it my duty to treat Col. Rogers in a manner different from anybody else who has gone under similar conditions. I think the hon. gentleman will realize the reasonableness of the position I take.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to single out Col. Rogers or to make any special comment in regard to him. I have mentioned his case for the purpose of bringing to the attention of the minister the information that has been given to me-and this is not by any means an isolated case-of officials of the Government volunteering for military service and whose services have not been found to be of military, value. The minister says that this is not any of his business as head of the department. I am going to take the position of disagreeing with him on that point. I think it is the business of the different members of this Government to find out whether the service that these officers are rendering is of military value or not, and to govern their dealing with these gentlemen
with that information in hand. Certainly, if there is any considerable number of officials of this Government who ostensibly have volunteered for military service and are not now rendering military service while drawing salary from this Government, that amounts to a very serious scandal and certainly should not be allowed to continue. I am compelled, with all due respect, to disagree with the minister that it is no concern of his what military service officials of his department render when they are on leave. I think that unless they are rendering valuable service, their leave and salary should be stopped.
Dominion lands and parks-engraving, lithographing, printing, and preparation of maps, plans, and kindred publications of the Dominion, including necessary materials for same, *76,150.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I must congratulate the minister on the last atlas of the Dominion. It was an excellent piece of work.


Frank Oliver: Does this item include
immigration literature?


William James Roche: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: May I ask whether the atlases can be sent to the universities and high schools upon application to the department?


William James Roche: Yes.
Dominion lands and parks-grant to Alpine Club of Canada, *1,000.


George Perry Graham: What does the Alpine
Club do?


William James Roche: This club, formed some
years ago, has almost a world-wide reputation. Its membership is steadily increasing, and consists of the most prominent people in all countries of the world. This grant is to assist the club.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that the
department has brought some guides from Switzerland?


William James Roche: Not that I am aware of.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know that some gentlemen have been brought out from Switzerland. Perhaps they are employed by the Canadian Pacific railway.


Frank Oliver: Might I ask the minister a question abouit the internment camp at Jasper park? Is it intended to utilize the labour of the prisoners interned there, and, if so, on what conditions, and for what purpose?


William James Roche: I understand that about two hundred prisoners are interned there, and t'hait they are paid twenty-five cents a day for clearing up the park, building roads, clearing away the brush, etc. There are 200 prisoners at Banff, 200 at Field, and 200 at Jasper. The railways give us a very low rate for transporting these
11 pun. men to the camps. It was thought that it would be better for the men to be doing some work rather than eating their heads off.


Frank Oliver: Does the Parks Department pay them?


William James Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: Is the labour compulsory? Under what condition is the work done?


William James Roche: We have supervising officers to see that the prisoners do the work. The work is not voluntary on the part of the prisoners; they are taken there and put to work; foremen are put over them to see that the work is done properly. Of course, the prisoners will not have to do much work to earn twenty-five cents a day; but we thought that we could get a lot of work done in this way.


Frank Oliver: It strikes me as a very serious problem. These people have not committed any crime against the laws of the country, and, while I can quite appreciate the desirability of interning them and offering them the opportunity of employment, when it comes down to compulsory employment at twenty-five cents a day I am afraid that that involves principles which we cannot all subscribe to.


William James Roche: In view of the manner in which the British prisoners in Germany are being treated, I do not think there will be any international complications.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Referring to an item that has been passed, I should like to call the minister's attention to the latest publication of the Conservation Commission, which contains a very remarkable report by a representative of the province of Quebec on the better protection of our forests. The report is made by Mr. Piche, who is at the head of the Forestry branch in our province. Sir Clifford Sifton and the other members of the commission frankly admitted that probably the best plan to follow as regards protection against forest fires was the system adopted in the province of Quebec. That is so well recognized that the province of New Brunswick has already

borrowed some of our officials to establish the very same system in that province. I am sure my hon. friend will be interested in reading that report. I was particularly struck myself with the unanimity with which all the interested parties declared that the province of Quebec was far ahead of all other provinces in the matter of protection against forest fires.


William James Roche: Similar representations
have been made to me.


George Perry Graham: As we have done a
pretty good day's work I would suggest that we adjourn.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.
Wednesday, February 16, 1916.