1916-02-02

REPORTS AND PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Eleventh Annual Report of the Commissioners of the Transcontinental railway for
the year ended March 31, 1915.-Hon. J. D. Reid.
Report of the Department of Railways and Canals for the year ended March 31, 1915.-Hon. J. D. Reid.
Tenth Annual Report of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, for the year ended March 31, 1915.-Hon. J. D. Reid.
Detailed Statement of the Remissions of customs duties and the rebate thereof, under section 92, Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, through the Department of Customs, for the year ended -March 31, 1915-Hon. Mr. Blondin.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. E. KNOWLES (Moosejaw) asked for leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the desirability of immediately withdrawing the order for the collection of certain debts due to the Government by certain western homesteaders.
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: We are in the
last stage of a long debate upon the Address which has lasted now for nearly three weeks, and the intervention of a motion of this kind, unless it be of paramount importance, will not contribute towards getting through with the business of the House economically and rapidly. It does not seem to me that, whether we discuss this question now or next week, it will make any difference to the intrinsic merits of the case, nor will it make any difference to its progress. Until the -debate on the Address is concluded, we are precluded from doing any other business. I would therefore counsel my hon. friend to,allow this matter to lie over until we havfe finished the debate on the Address, and when business will become more normal. I say this simply in the interest of the despatch of the business of the House.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: The matter is one of urgent importance, and it is for my hon. friend to decide whether or not he should wait a day or two days more. It may be that the urgency of the matter is such that my hon. friend feels he is justified in interfering with the course of the present debate.


George Eulas Foster: If any real progress could be made, I would have no objection, but I do not see that there can. As the matter will simply have to come up at another time, the discussion will be duplicated.


Mr. KNOWLES:: When the matter is proceeded with, the onus will be on myself to show that it is urgent. I was asked by telegraph to take this matter up. I accept the counsel of the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce in a very kindly spirit, but in view of the urgency of the matter, and in view of the very short time that I purpose taking, I would like to avail myself of the privilege of Rule 39, which says:
. If objection is taken, the Speaker requests those members who support the motion to rise in their places.
I am sorry that my hon. friend does not have sufficient confidence in me to think that I would not first be assured that it is necessary to bring this matter up now. I realize, as he says, that we are nearing the end of the debate, but this discussion will take only a very short time and the matter is one of most urgent importance.


Mr. ROGERS:: Go ahead .


William Erskine Knowles: On Monday of this
week I made some remarks on this subject, as reported in Hansard, page 449, and possibly if I read that part of my speech it will be the most expeditious way of treating the matter in hand. My remarks were:
After having got that wire of mine-I do not say that it influenced their decision-but having got that wire, they decided that they would only take half of it this year. But, you will be sorry to know that a man who is so unfortunate as to have a judgment against him, and the sheriff goes after him, must submit to having it all taken from him.
This being, of course, in regard to a seed lien debt. (Reading):
The poor chap who is in difficulties, and whose possessions the sheriff is seizing, is placed in a most unfortunate position; ' the Government is taking every cent that is due by him, they are exacting their pound of flesh from him. I am going to prove it. Here is a letter from Mr. Charles H. Beddoe, superintending accountant, Department of the Interior, addressed to the sheriff, saying, that if a seizure has been made this concession to lelt half of the thing go until next year does not apply, but that he must take every cent out of the poor fellow who has a judgment against him. The letter is as follows:
"Ottawa, Jan. 8, 1916.
" J. Rutherford, Sheriff,
" Moosejaw, Sask.
" Re Dominion Seed Liens and Liens for relief.
" Dear Sir,-In reply to your favour of December 30, regarding the above, I beg to advise you that the ruling of the department in regard to seizures, is, that the full amount of [DOT]the Government's indebtedness must be provided for in full."


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. I wish to call
the attention of the hon. member to rule 39, paragraph C:

The motion must not revive discussion on a matter which has been discussed in the same session.
The hon. member is discussing what he himself said the other day in the debate on the Address, and consequently I would ask him to conform his remarks to the rule.


William Erskine Knowles: I will endeavour to conform to that rule. I will read therefore from a copy which I have, and not from Hansard:
"While the Government is satisfied to collect one-half of the seed grain account in all cases where the security is in no way impaired, and the crop not interfered with, this does not apply where seizure has been made. Therefore, I would like your office to see that the total amount of indebtedness is collected. Unless in cases where half or part has been paid I will then advise you of the balance owing, which must be collected and remitted to this office.
" I trust that you will regard the above instructions as being specific and entirely satisfactory to your offlce. Thanking you for your co-operation, I am,
" Tour obedient servant.
" (Sgd.) Chas. A. Beddoe,
" Superintending Accountant."
I will endeavour, both in letter and in spirit, to observe the rule that I shall not renew the subject of a formed debate, although I have not noticed that rule observed very closely in this House in former years.
In the course of that occasion the Solicitor-General (Mr. Meighen) rose in his place, and, while I am not permitted to read his exact words, I may say generally that he stated that I was in error in believing that that was the condition; that there had been a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of instructions, and that no difference was being made between the man whose crops were seized, and the man whose crops were not under seizure. I told the Solicitor General, at the time, that I took his statement with a grain of salt- but that is not in Hansard, and so I could not read it even if the rule did not forbid. However, I took it with such a large grain of salt that I spent some money telegraphing to ascertain whether the statement thus volunteered by him was based on facts, or was simply a statement volunteered for the purpose of glossing over, in a more or less fair way, the charge made against the department. I sent the following telegram:
Ottawa, February 1, 1916.
John Rutherford,
Sheriff, Moosejaw.
Did Dominion Government countermand Bed-doe's instructions requiring full payment where seizures made?' Reply.
W. E. Knowles.

I received the following answer last night:
Moosejaw, February 1, 1916.
W. E. Knowles,
House of Ccmmons,
Ottawa.
Beddoe's instructions to of liens where seizure manded.
collect full payment made not courJter-
J. Rutherford,
Sheriff.
I look upon that, as requiring two observations, the first of which I shall merely make and not elaborate upon. It is unfortunate that statements by a Minister of the Crown should he found on investigation to be not worthy of the reliance that we should like to place upon a minister s statement when he undertakes to correct an ordinary, everyday member of the House, like myself. But it will be useful for Us, as a means of estimating in future the value of the statements volunteered by the Solicitor General.
My second observation is that this is a matter of the greatest public importance and of the greatest urgency. I represent a district 240 miles east and west on the main line of the C.P.R., and 175 miles north and south, from the international boundary to the middle of the province of Saskatchewan. In that territory there are thousands upon thousands of settlers. I am the representative here of a hundred thousand people. It is of the utmost urgency that these homesteaders, who were assisted by the Dominion of Canada a year ago, should not now have such pressure brought to bear upon them as is brought to beaT by this order of which I complain. I rise to urge the Government to countermand its drastic instructions by telegraph, and also in the most speedy manner possible to restore to the unfortunate homesteaders any money that has been taken from them by reason of those instructions. The Solicitor General has admitted that this is quite in order. He rose in his place, and he said that the department disapproved of the action taken, and he said also- though he was inaccurate in that-that instructions had been given to the contrary. Having agreed with me, that to require the re-payment of 100 per cent of the seed grain debt on the part of those who had executions against them, is unjust, it is the duty of the Government, without the loss of an hour, to relieve the people of the drastic measures brought to bear upon them.
The majority of these people are beginning in that western country; they are the pioneers of homesteading. In 1914 they had no crop; practically no crop at all. In 1915 they had a crop. The debt of a homesteader to the Government may run from $200 to $400. When the Government collects a seed grain debt, there is no exemption, and the sheriff cleans up as clean as possible. The consequence is that many will be left to face the cruel winter weather without a dollar to buy fuel. It is all very well for hon. members of this House, in this well-heated place, and with lots to eat and lots to wear, but it is vastly different in a homesteader's home, where a dollar means more than a hundred dollars does to a member of the Government, or probably to the average member of this House. If it was wise for the Government to make advances to these men; if it was wise for the Government, under the legislation passed, practically to go into partnership in order to furnish them the necessary seed, and to afford them relief in relation to fuel and provisions, it is a fortiori desirable and wise that the Government should now refrain from squeezing them, and that it should rather seek to afford them opportunity to continue as desirable homesteaders. The weather in the West, as hon. members no doubt are aware, has been extremely cold. Following the daily telegraphic weather reports, I notice that in my own town for two weeks past the thermometer has been at from twenty to thirty, and even to thirty-five degrees below zero; and during that time it has not once been above zero. Under these conditions, it is of the utmost importance that the Government should act wisely and reasonably in regard to these seed grain loans. If it is well to give a twelve months' extension to the wealthier farmers, who have no executions against them, a fortiori it is well to give an extension on half of the amount due by the poor men who have executions against them. I urge that the Government should telegraph countermanding these drastic instructions, and, as speedily as they can get the cheques written, refund to the homesteaders anything they may have taken from them over and above one-half of the seed grain loans. I move that this House do now adjourn.


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Minister of the Interior) :: I am surprised at the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) bringing this matter up on a motion to adjourn the

House, on the ground that it is a question of urgency. The question has already been dealt with by the department. The hon. gentleman is absolutely wrong in stating that the Government are imposing a hardship upon these people whose grain and chattels have been seized by their creditors. The Government has nothing to do with these seizures. Originally, as I am informed by the seed grain branch of my department, it was the practice of the Government to collect half of the indebtedness to it from those whose goods were under seizure by their creditors for other debts. Under legislation which the provincial governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta placed upon the statute book, our loans were made a prior claim, and when seizures were made under the provincial Act by other creditors, of course the Government had to take some steps to protect the treasury. Therefore, while we could justly have claimed the right to enforce payment of the total amount of our lien, we only collected one-half the amount from those under seizure. But the Solicitor General explained the matter the other day-I was not in the House at the time-and his explanation was absolutely correct. Owing to misinterpretation by Mr. Bruce Walker of the instructions he had received, they reversed the original policy and were collecting the full amount of seed grain indebtedness where seizures were made by other creditors. This having been brought to our attention, I asked the seed grain branch this morning to furnish me with a memorandum in reply to the remarks of the hon. gentleman the other day. The hon. gentleman had not the courtesy to send me notice that he was going to bring this matter up to-day, and so I am not able to reply to him with all the information I might have brought down. However, I desire to tell him that his fears have no justification whatever. This is the information I received:
The practice was to collect one-half of the seed grain indebtedness where seizures were made. In the early part of September, on instructions from Ottawa, <this practice was departed from and collections in full were made An extract from a ruling, the original of which I have not before me but which I understand was from the Solicitor General, says:
" Whenever it is brought *to the knowledge of the department that seed grain subject to lien is seized, an officer should then at once notify the sheriff or bailiff seizing and the execution creditor, if possible, or his solicitor, of the Government's claim, and the notice should state not only that the Government had a claim and the amount of the claim and wha*t

it is for, but should set out explicitly that the grain should not be interfered with until the Governmer,*t's claim was paid."
I understand that, owing to the representations made, the original practice of collecting only one-half has been reverted to. The Solicitor General was, therefore, absolutely correct in the statement he made the other day. (Beading):
Where full payment was insisted upon, the hardship to the farmer on account of the Government's action would in many cases be more imaginary tthan real; in fact, in some cases the farmers have expressed their thanks for the Government insisting on getting full payment. Suppose a farmer's crop was valued, for ?200 and it was seized for a claim of $200 due to a machine firm, the department having a lien for $200 for seed grain and provisions; when the seizure was made, departmental officers would step in and take the full amount of its claim, leaving the machine company noth-^ ing. In the general course of events, the de-' partment would likely render some assistance to >the farmer until his next crop was gathered, so that he would in that way he in a, much better position than if the machine firm's claim had been satisfied, and the department did nothing in connection wiith his unpaid obligation to the Government.
That is the view the department has taken. As this memorandum states, we have received thanks from some of the men who were seized upon, for the Government's insisting upon its claim. But it was only in a few instances that the claim was satisfied in full before the machine or other creditors came in. The hon. gentleman asks that a telegram be despatched to-day countermanding these orders. I may say that these orders have been countermanded some days ago. If the gentleman who has informed the hon. member for Moosejaw was not in possession of that information when he sent the wire to which the hon. gentleman has referred, I do not know why he was not. At any rate, those instructions were sent out from Ottawa several days ago.
Mr. McCRANEY; May I ask the hon. minister, on whose representation was the extension of time given for the payment; one-half this year and one-half next year, of the seed grain lien, was it on the representation of farmers, of boards of trade, or of machine men, and wholesale houses.
Mr. ROCHE; It was upon representation made by different interests, largely by farmers, who stated that owing .to their other indebtedness they were not in a position to meet all their liabilities, and they asked the Government to be more lenient with them and to extend the time for payment.
I think we received requests of a similar

character from boards of trade. Having received these representations, the Government came to the conclusion that, in view of all the circumstances, it would be well to collect only one-half this year.


Hon. FRANK OLIVER:: If I gather correctly what the Minister of the Interior said, he intimated that, in his method of collecting for seed advances, his department was following a precedent established by the Department of the Interior on a former occasion.


William James Roche: I said nothing about that.


Frank Oliver: I am glad to be corrected, but I want to say that the department was not following a precedent set on a former occasion.


William James Roche: I did not refer at all to any occasion prior to this year.


Frank Oliver: Very well, then; I will
take the liberty of referring to it. Never on any former occasion did any government of Canada take the position that this Government has taken: that of demanding that the first grain the settlers sold out of their new crops should be taken as payment of the Government's lien.
Mr. ROC'HE: Would the hon. gentleman inform me what method of collection was resorted to by the province of Alberta in 1908, when advances were made in that province?


Frank Oliver: I am not aware of what
was done by the province of Alberta; I am talking only about what was done by the Dominion of Canada.


William James Roche: I may inform the hon.
gentleman that they collected by way of levying taxes, and that they collected nearly all during the first year.


Frank Oliver: I am not disputing what my hon. friend said, but I do not see that it has any bearing upon the point that I have made. The Government has now' taken an entirely different attitude towards the collection of these seed grain liens than ever was before taken by any government in Canada. The minister suggests that the Alberta Government did this or did that. They certainly did not collect as this Government has collected: by demanding that the first load of grain that a man takes to the elevator shall be taken to pay the seed grain lien, and before he has an opportunity of buying an ounce of provisions or a stitch of clothing for his family. Such
action never was taken by the Alberta Government or by any other government. My hon. friend said that the Alberta Government collected by taxation. Certainly they collected by taxation, but that is a very different matter. By that method they gave a man opportunity to get the -money before they took it from him, but this -Government authorizes every elevator company, every railway company, everybody who has the handling of the farmer's grain, to take that grain from him when he offers it for sale.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman knows that we have a lien on the grain.


Frank Oliver: Precisely. The Government has a lien on the grain, and because it has a lien on the grain it has a lien that takes precedence over every other right. This is the very reason why the Government did not need to take the action that it has taken in this case in order to secure its interests. In the case of the homesteader, the Government holds a lien upon his homestead; in the case of the man who has his patent, under provincial legislation this Government holds priority of right over any other judgment against his property. The Government are not, therefore, under any necessity of taking from the farmer the first dollar that he gets and that he needs for the requirements of his family; yet they have done it. And the Minister of the Interior stands up in this House at- this time, when men are freezing to death in the West for lack of fuel, and says that the taking of the whole of the lien from these farmers -is not a matter of urgency. I maintain, Mr. Speaker, that it is a -matter of very great urgency, -and that the Government would -be well advised to accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Moosejaw, and to wire, in terms that will not be misunderstood, that, in the first place, they are not going to require the whole of the payment from the -man who is unfortunate, and, in the next place, that they will not insist that the first load of grain that -comes in shall be used to pay the lien.


Mr. ROOHE:: Will the hen. gentleman explain what security the Government would have after the farmer sold his grain?


Frank Oliver: The Government w'ould
then have no security on the grain, but they would have security on whatever property the farmer had.


William Roche: Not for a relief lien.


Frank Oliver: The Governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan have passed legislation giving this Government priority of right over mortgages on farms representing indebtedness on the part of the farmers who have received seed grain. Under these circumstances why should the Government be so insistent on its pound of flesh? I have no fault with the Government making collections as promptly as is reasonable, but, as the hon. member for Moose-jaw pointed out, what was the use of advancing grain to the farmer last summer in order to tide him over the winter and then, when he has the grain, to take it from him? If he was to toe allowed to starve, he might as well have starved last summer as this winter; then it would have been an -act of Providence, hut now it is an. act of this Government.


William James Roche: By way of explanation I may state that the Government has been -so dreadfully hard on the farmers that out of the $13,000,000 expended upon seed grain for their relief, we have collected only a little over $1,000,000.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT:: By the joint action of the Legislatures . of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan and of the Parliament of Canada, some $13,000,000 were advanced to the farmers of these two provinces for the purpose of providing them with seed grain and the necessities of life. This Parliament authorized the advance. The two legislatures made it po-sible that the money so advanced should be a first charge against the property of the person to whom it was lent, whether he be a homesteader or otherwise. That lien w-a>s' embodied in statutes passed by the Legislature of Alberta, and by the Legislature of Saskatchewan. The lien was registered in the proper way in the land titles office. So far as the personal lien was concerned, it gave expression to what the Privy Council has long since held, that a debt due to the Crown has priority over other debts. The hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) cannot possibly be excused for the statement he has just made, because he belongs to the legal profession, and it was necessary for him to pass some sort of an examination before he was allowed to practice law; and no man who has passed an examination that enabled him to practice law could have knowingly made the observations which my friend made this afternoon. He either did

it for the purpose of endeavouring to make political capital against the Government, or else he does not know what he is talking about. He must take either horn of the dilemma, as I shall show conclusively, for there is no middle course open. He complained this afternoon that where property had been seized this Government had directed a sheriff to exercise the prior lien of the Crown and collect the money due for seed grain. It will be observed that he based his remarks upon a seizure having been made by the sheriff. No seizure is necessary to enforce the lien of the Government for the seed grain supplied to the homesteaders. It is only when the farmer finds himself a judgment creditor that the sheriff seizes. It was the unfortunate financial position of the farmer that made possible a seizure by the sheriff, and the question of whether a seizure could or could not be made falls within the jurisdiction of the Provincial Legislature. If my hon. friend has a grievance, his grievance is against the Legislature of Saskatchewan that permits the sheriff to seize from farmers in war time. In the province of Alberta the legislature realized that very fact, and at the last session passed a statute providing that no seizure under execution should be made against any debtor, while this war lasted, without the consent of a judge, given on application made and a summons issued. My learned friend cannot possibly avoid knowledge of the fact that the issue of the execution is a matter over which the Legislature of Saskatchewan has control, and that this Parliament has nothing to do with it. It is a matter affecting property and civil rights within the province, and any attempt to exercise jurisdiction by this Parliament would be ultra vires of it. He must know-at least he should know-that if a judgment has been recovered against a homesteader and a seizure has taken place in consequence of an execution having issued, the whole control of that procedure is in the hands of the Legislature of Saskatchewan, over which my hon. friend exercises a very considerable influence, no doubt; and the representations he could make to them as to the harshness and cruelty of this procedure would, no doubt, have a very considerable effect. But those representations should not be made on the floor of this Parliament; they should be made to the Legislature and the Lieutenant Governor of the province of Saskatchewan.
The hon. member has based his remarks upon the further fact that, under these ex-

ecutions, the sheriff has seized and sold to guard the interests of all concerned. Then, *when the results of a husbandman's labours have been gathered in and the sheriff has gone out and sold the property, both provinces, Saskatchewan and Alberta, have passed the Creditors' Relief Act. Under that Act, the machine man and the mortgagee, and all persons who have judgments against the unfortunate farmer have to divide, pro rata, the money that is realized from the sale of his grain. In other words, the execution in the hands of the sheriff, which is directed against all the executable property held by the homesteader, realizes a certain sum of money; that money the sheriff puts in the bank, and he cannot distribute it until a certain period of time has elapsed, in order that all creditors may rank equally and get their rateable share of the money so realized from the sale of the goods seized under the sheriff's execution. Up to this point this Government has as little to do with it as the Government of Germany. Surely my hon. friend knows that. I must assume that he has forgotten, at the moment. Then, when the money is in the hands of the sheriff and notice has been given and the various judgment creditors have filed all their claims and are entitled to their ratable distribution of this money, what further have we? We have notice given to the sheriff that there is a Crown debt, and that Crown debt takes priority over all other claims and must be paid in full, and thus prevents a rateable distribution among these other creditors. There is no hardship to the farmer in that except that the Crown is getting paid in full for having supplied the homesteader with that wherewith he can pay part of his creditors, half,of the amounts due to them, and the Crown all.


William Erskine Knowles: Since my hon. friend has such a preponderating knowledge of the law, could he say whether the Exemptions Act would apply against the Crown? No doubt it would against other execution creditors.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The question whether the Exemptions Act would apply cannot be an issue in this case, because the sale has been made by the sheriff, and the exemptions have been claimed by the homesteader before the money has been realized. That must be apparent to anybody who knows the rudiments of law. Of course, after the exhibition given here this afternoon, I cannot expect my hon. friend to do more than shake his head. Not only is
this a fair thing, but it is one that the farmer would like to have put in force. Why? Because he complains bitterly against the machine company, against the mortgagee, against all his creditors who have sold his property under execution. He complained, and properly so, that they were permitted to do this in war time. Now he says: because you have done that, you are not going to get your money; but the people who supplied me with the seed are going to be paid in full, and you people who brought about my misfortune and distress can take your chance of ever being paid. That is the position in a nutshell. Not only did our legislature contemplate the possibility of this arising, but they passed a statute in which they said:	Yrou cannot issue an execution
against any man under these circumstances unless you first go to a judge and get an order to do so.
I should like once more to summarize this position by saying that the facts that have been brought to the attention of the House by the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) are such as,to warrant the closest scrutiny and attention by the authorities having power to deal with the matter; and I trust that, as a result of the attention directed to it to-day, legislation will be adopted in Saskatchewan to prevent executions being issued against these poor starving settlers in Saskatchewan, as has been done by a Liberal Government in the province of Alberta, in which I live.


Mr. J. G. TURRIFF:: I am not going to follow the hon- gentleman in his learned dissertation upon the law. But neither he nor the Minister of the Interior has so far answered the question asked by the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) as to why the Government has discriminated against the poor unfortunate farmer who has a judgment against him. The well-to-do farmer gets off with one-half his liabilities ; but in the case of the man who has been unfortunate and against whom there is a judgment, this Government steps in and says: "You can not get off with one-half your liabilities; you must pay the whole liability"; and my hon. friends on the Government benches think they have given an answer to this question when the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. R. B. Bennett) gets up and gives a learned dissertation on the law! It is not the law we want at the present time, for the poor farmer; it is some fair play, it is some

justice and some reasonableness, as my hon. friend from Edmopton (Mr. Oliver) has pointed out. Never in the history of the past did any Government of Canada take such drastic action as has been taken by this Government on this occasion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does my hon. friend say that this Parliament has power to prevent executions being issued or a levy made by the sheriff?


John Gillanders Turriff: My hon. friend knows as well as any hon. gentleman in this House that this Government has the right, if they wish, to say that only one-half of the seed grain indebtedness shall be collected. I never heard' of a case in the past where the repayment of one-half of the amount of the indebtedness for seed grain was insisted on in the first year.
But I am not here to argue the legal aspects of the case at all. What I want to get from my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior is a promise. It appears that the sheriff of Moosejaw did not get the instructions which the Minister of the Interior says were sent. What I want to ask is, will the minister repeat those instructions to the sheriff at Moosejaw to-day by telegram?


William James Roche: I will make inquiries as to the hour when the instructions were sent and as to whether the sheriff would receive a message in time to-night.


John Gillanders Turriff: Why not send another telegram? Surely the Government are not so hard up that they cannot afford to send another message.


William James Roche: I am not objecting to sending another telegram. These instructions have been sent out, and they have not yet reached the sheriff. I will see if they can reach him to-night.


John Gillanders Turriff: I would like an assurance from the hon. minister that a message will be sent to Moosejaw to-day in order to relieve these settlers. My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior has also neglected to answer the question as to whether the full amount has been taken in the past, or at all events since those instructions were sent, or whether lie would be prepared to take half or make a refund in those cases of settlers who, unfortunately, had not made their collection.


William James Roche: We will deal with these cases on their merits, and see that justice is done in every case.


John Gillanders Turriff: I am afraid that that is the way my hon. friend has been dealing with the matter up to the present, and it has not been very satisfactory to the farmers who are not in the position to pay for seed grain. However, the matter has been brought to the attention of the Government, and if they fail to deal with it the responsibility will be on them.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I have just a word to say. I was unfortunately unable to be present when the question first came up. My hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. R. B. Bennett) attempted to deal with it by referring to the law as it exists in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. My hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) has just pointed out that he has not touched the real point at all. The point we have been trying to make in this House in two or three speeches that have been delivered has been that the farmers of Western Canada are not getting fair treatment from this Government, and in so far as my observation goes I am prepared to repeat that statement. I go further and say that the farmer in Western Canada has never got a square deal from the present Government. My hon. friend from Calgary referred to the fact that under certain orders in council, or certain provincial statutes passed in the province of Alberta, no one can have an execution issued against a debtor without first going to the judge for the district or to a judge of the Supreme Court. I am surprised to hear that the law of the province of Alberta goes so far. I must confess that, although I am a member of the legal profession, I was not aware that the law of the province of Alberta went so far. However, my hon. friend has made the statement, and no doubt we must take it for what it is worth; no doubt the hon. member knows. In the province of Saskatchewan, from where I come, they did not pass any such moratorium legislation when the war broke out. We did, however, have certain moratorium legislation designed to protect the volunteers and reservists who went to the front to fight the battles of the Empire. I think my hon. friend from Calgary-and I think I know him pretty well-would be the first to object to any such legislation. I believe that the less you interfere in the ordinary course between debtor and creditor the better. In the province of Saskatchewan since the war began a good deal of assistance* has been given by financial institutions, and mortgage institutions, to men in straitened

circumstances. What I do object to is the bungling -of the Administration that has gone on during the past three or four years.
I took occasion last year to discuss the matter of the distribution of seed grain. In the fall of 1914 circular letters were distributed all through that country stating that every man there, no matter whether he was on patented or unpatented land, could get a supply of seed grain. I know now why it was sent out, I know it was sent out as a precursor to a general election which it was designed to hold in 1914; but in January, 1915, there was a change of mind and for weeks nobody knew who would get the seed grain. That is the effect of bungling administration in some department of the Government.
I have noticed that when a member on this side gets up to champion the cause of the farmer, there is a certain amount of sneering and grinning on the part of hon. members opposite. Now, I come from an agricultural province and one to which I am proud to belong, a province which I think is just as good as the province of Ontario in which I was born. I believe that in years to come the great province of Saskatchewan, considering its area, will produce as much No. 1 hard wheat as any similar area in the world. The province of Saskatchewan is not a manufacturing province; we have our likes and dislikes; we are creatures of circumstance just as are the men who live in the manufacturing cities of Ontario. But I claim that the farmer does not get the sympathy that he is entitled to. The province of Saskatchewan is not >a manufacturing province. I do not expect to see the conditions for manufacturing in that province established for many years to come, perhaps not in my lifetime. Probably we could not manufacture at a profit. But I repeat that since this Government came into power the western farmer has not got a square deal. I could give many instances, perhaps not designed, of their bungling administration in Western Canada. Take the dirty seed grain of last year. There are more weeds in the province of Saskatchewan to-day than there ever were in the history of that province, and that condition is largely due to the dirty seed grain that was distributed-I saw it in three different places. I saw bags of seeds with tickets attached to them with the words, " noxious weeds and wild oats." I have been informed that wild oats cannot be removed from .seed grain. What was the use of sending out seed grain filled with 33-R-16
dirty weeds? From the date of the distribution of seed grain down to the time of collection there has been nothing but bungling in connection with seed grain distribution. My hon. friend from Calgary gives us a dissertation on the law, which* every lawyer in the province knows just as well as he does, and attempts to cover up the real facts. The statement I make is that this Government, by means of its Prussian methods of collection for seed grain, is at present throttling the western farmer, and trying to take from the man who has debts to pay the very means of paying them and of existing during the coming.winter.


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: My hon. friend (Mr. W. M. Martin) has used some rather strong language in the course of his remarks. He has stated that the western farmers have never, in his judgment, received a square deal, as he terms it, from the present Government. Now, I have had something to do with this matter of relief to the farmers in the districts of Saskatchewan which were visited by drought something over a year ago. Let us consider for a moment the circumstances under which that relief was afforded, and see whether there is any ground for complaint that the farmers in question did not receive a square deal from this Government. It was shortly before the war broke out-and when we were experiencing financially the * full consequences of it- that this matter first came to the attention of the Government, and to my attention as Minister of Finance. It was a time of very great strain. Our revenues were being cut in half. The London money market was. absolutely closed and so far as we could see there was no relief to be had in the American market. Conditions, both financially and commercially, were trying in the extreme. If there ever was a time when financial stress was imposed upon a Government of Canada it was during that period succeeding the outbreak of war, when the matter of the drought in Saskatchewan, and the need of the farmers in the different districts affected was brought to the attention of the Government. What was the attitude of the Government? There was no question whatever about the matter of affording relief, although in the case of the farmers whose lands had been patented, it was the clear duty of the Provincial Government, as distinguished from the Dominion Government, to deal with the situation.


William Melville Martin: If that is the case, and there is something in what the hon. gentleman says, why was it that in November, 1914, .circulars were spread broadcast throughout Saskatchewan and also, I think, throughout Alberta,, promising to give seed grain to any man whether he were on patented or unpatented land?


William Thomas White: It was perfectly manifest to us, dealing with this matter, not from a political standpoint but from the economic standpoint, that in respect of those settlers who had been visited by that terrible affliction of drought, the Provincial Government would not be able to afford relief. There is no ddubt whatever that, in strictness, once a patent has been issued to a farmer, he should look to the Provincial Government and not to the Dominion Government for needed relief and assistance. If the Dominion Government is to afford relief in the case of those whose lands have been patented in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, it is perfectly clear that the Dominion Government would have to afford assistance in the case of others in a similar plight in any other province of the Dominion. It is, to my mind, not open to doubt that, once a patent has issued, once the land becomes subject to the provincial jurisdiction, the duty is cast upon the Provincial Government to afford relief if relief is required. I do not mean to say that the Dominion should not, in the case of a visitation of a serious character, from the compassionate motives afford a certain measure of relief, but just as the primary duty rests upon a municipality for giving relief within the municipality, so the primary duty rests upon the province, where relief is to be afforded within the confines of that province to those whose lands have been patented. It was perfectly apparent that the Provincial Government, having regard to the financial conditions pre-
3 p.m. vailing at that time, was not in a position to afford that relief. There was no doubt in our minds that relief should be afforded, and we had no hesitation in affording it, although we knew perfectly well at the time that difficulties would arise subsequently in the matter of collections and that the charges which have been made on the floor of this House would be made with partisan motives. We knew that perfectly well, but, knowing that, it did not deter us from our duty, and we did our duty.

What did we do? Under the circumstances .which I have mentioned, and with the financial situation such as I have described, the Government of Canada advanced a sum of no less than $13,000,000; about $6,000,000 for seed grain and $7,000,000 for relief and fodder. We were not paying our own money; it was the money of the Dominion of Canada, for which this Govern: ment, like all governments, is trustee. We had to deal with the matter on a business basis. Personally, I would very much rather that we had done what was done in 1907-8; I would rather have made advances to the Provincial Government and allowed them in turn to make the advances, to the farmers. But, as a matter of fact, the Provincial Government did not desire to have it done in that way, for the reason that, not only 4s there no political advantage to be gained from affording relief to farmers under these circumstances but, on the contrary, it is a political disadvantage to the Government which does it, because, at some time, ultimately, the money has to be collected.	i


Frank Oliver: I do not think the Minister is entitled to make that slur against the Provincial Government.


William Thomas White: If I am in order, Mr. Speaker, I am entitled to make the observation I have made, and I think I am in order. I do not want for one moment to speak disrespectfully of a Provincial Government, but I am expressing my belief that the Provincial Governments did not desire to make this distribution. If they refused, as I am now informed they did refuse to make this distribution, what was the position? The duty of assisting the farmers of the West was cast upon the Government of Canada, and we were not only willing but most desirous of assisting, them, we were desirous, in the first place, because we sympathized greatly with those farmers in the drought-stricken districts, and because, in the second place, if there ever was a, time in the history of Canada when it was desirable that production in thi^ country should be increased, it was that particular time. We raised, under circumstances of financial difficulty, such as never before had confronted this country, not $2,000,000 or $3,000,000, but no less a sum than $13,000,000. And, in the face of this, the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin) says that the Government did not give a square deal to the western farmers.

I 'ask this House and the country if there could have been any squarer deal. What could this Government have done more than it did? Governor's warrant after governor's warrant-there being no appropriation by Parliament-was passed to enable us to furnish this much-needed assistance to the farmers of Western Canada, $6,000,000 for seed grain and some $7',000,000 for fodder and relief. Under the circumstances which I have described, the Dominion Government furnished all the money that was* asked for, all that was required ti meet the needs of the situation. Having done that, is the remark of my hon. friend justified, that there was not a square deal, and that this Government acted harshly and oppressively in the matter? What could any government have done in excess of what we did to meet that most trying situation with which we so greatly sympathized?
This money, as I have already said, is money for which we are the trustees of the people of Canada. It is money that belongs to the Dominion which embraces all the provinces. The Government is the trustee, for the money and it had to take security for it. As I have said, it is the primary duty of the Provincial Government to deal with matters of this kind, but let me point out that the case is different when patept-s have not yet been issued. Where patents have not yet been issued upon homestead lands the duty is cast upon the Dominion (and that duty has been recognized not only by this but by preceding governments) to make advances for seed grain to homesteaders. On the other hand, in the case of farmers who have patents, the duty is directly upon the Provincial Government.
It was the duty of this Government to take security and the matter was discussed in this House. We took security for the seed grain along these lines. We took- and of course, it was necessary to get legislation, by the Saskatchewan and Alberta Legislatures to give effect to our intentions-a first charge upon the land of the farmer who got advances for seed grain. In addition to that, we were given by this legislation, a lien upon the grain itself which was raised from that seed grain which we had supplied to the farmers. In the case of moneys -advanced for relief, we took a charge next after all existing charges upon the land, and we took a lien upon the product of the -seed grain. Now, that was the security which we held
33*J-R-16
in trust for the people of this country. I do not mean to say for one moment that the trust should not be exercised with discretion and good judgment. It should not be oppressively exercised, and I know it was not in the mind of any member of the Government to harshly exercise our powers in the collection of advances which we made for the purpose of affording relief and of enabling the farmer to purchase his seed grain. But, we did hold that security-The crop was grown and harvested-and' it was one of the best crops in the history of Canada.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: The best.


William Thomas White: It was the best crop by far, I think, in the history of Canada, and with the exception of last year, I think, the prices were the best obtained for a great many years.


Frank Oliver: Not for wheat at the opening of the season.


William Thomas White: Well, the price was around ninety cents a bushel. Now, what attitude should the Government take with regard to the collection of these moneys which are owed to the Government by the farmers who had borrowed from us for the purposes which I have mentioned? Let me in passing call the attention of the House to the fact, that in order to secure these advances for seed grain, we took a lien, in priority to mortgagees. The mortgagees themselves were therefore interested in the payment of interest and in the collection of principal upon the advances we had made, because if the interest was allowed to accumulate, and if the charge was allowed to remain, this would have an important bearing upon the value of their -securities which had been taken under the laws of the province as first mortgage securities. The matter came up for consideration, and as the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) has stated, various representations were made to us as to what collections we should make from the farmers in respect of those advances. Representations, as he has stated, came from farmers, from boards of trade, and in addition, *strong representations came from financial interests which had invested money in the Northwest. The Government was not decisively influenced by any of those representations, but we took them all under consideration. I remember the decision of the

Government as distinctly as if the matter had been discussed yesterday. I discussed it with the Minister of the Interior and with the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen), who naturally came to me as Minister of Finance in regard to it. What I said then was this: let us do the right, and fair, and decent, and generous thing; we must, on the one hand, be fair to the people of Canada, whose money we have- advanced; we must not allow any part of our security to be lost if we are going to be at a disadvantage later in the collection of our advances, because we are the trustees for the people of Canada; but I said: let us do the fair thing. What is the fair thing under these circumstances? Here is a bounteous crop for which a fair price is being obtained. We thought that as thqse farmers had a hard year last year if would be oppressive to attempt to collect all the advances made either for .seed grain or for relief, and we discussed what it would be fair for us to collect, fair to the people of Canada on the one hand and fair to the farmers on the other. What we determined was that in cases where advances had been made both for seed grain and for relief, we should collect one-half of the advance made for seed grain, and allow the advance for relief to remain over; but where advances had been made for relief and not for seed grain that we should'collect one-half of the advances so made. That seemed to us, under the circumstances, to be a reasonable arrangement with the farmers of the West, and it means less than one-third of the whole. Although I do not think for one moment that we should insist upon the carrying out of the representations made by the parties at the time they borrowed, yet the fact remains that it was represented to us that this loan was to be a strict loan, and that it would in all probability be paid back within the year. The course that we took was a fair, just and generous course towards the farmers. The hon. member v for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) has called attention to the fact that the Department of the Interior engaged the elevator companies, and I think he said the railways also, to collect this money from the proceeds of the grain as sold. As I have stated, part of the security held by the Government was a lien upon the grain. Now, if I have a lien upon the grain of my hon. friend from Edmonton, and he sells that grain, what becomes of my lien? That lien has gone; the grain is gone; and I can not enforce the lien on that grain in the 
elevator at Fort William or at Liverpool. Therefore, if the Government was to conduct this business on a business basis at all, or on the semblance of a business basis, it was necessary for it to take steps to see that, in cases where the farmers were able to pay, its liens should not be defeated, and that is all that the Government did. After all is said and done, and after all the strong talk that has passed across the floor of this House as to the oppression exercised by this Government, as to its injustice, as to its Prussian methods, to use the expression of my hon. friend from Eegina (Mr. W. M. Martin), what is the great outstanding fact at the present time with regard to the advances which the Government made to the farmers of certain portions of Saskatchewan for the purpose of relief and for the purchase of seed grain? The outstanding fact is this: we advanced, under the circumstances that I have mentioned, $13,000,000-every dollar that was asked for, every dollar that was required. We advanced it because we sympathized with the farmers; we desired to help them and to put them on their feet, and we desired to increase production. What is the fact to-day? This oppressive Government, this Prussian Government, has actually collected up to date about $1,000,000, or one-thirteenth of the entire amount advanced. There are some things that do not require to be argued at length, and I purpose leaving my statement just as I have presented it to the House.


Mr. J. A. EOBB (Huntingdon):: The Minister of Finance has laid considerable emphasis on the statement that this was a business proposition. In my judgment, he failed to answer the charge of the hon. member for Eegina (Mr. Martin) that the Government had bungled the seed grain question from the beginning. While I admit the claim of the Minister of Finance, that it was a business proposition, that the Government were handling the money of the people of Canada, and that they should administer their trust fairly to all the people, including the western settlers, the Minister of Finance tells us that the Government had decided in the month of November, 1914, that it would be their policy to supply the western farmer with seed grain, and at that time wheat was selling at a little less than a dollar a bushel. But the Government waited until wheat went up to about a dollar and a half a bushel before they started to buy.


William James Roche: I desire to correct the hon. gentleman. He made a somewhat similar statement last session, but 'later I was able to present information that absolutely contradicted him.


James Alexander Robb: Then, perhaps the hon. minister would tell us what they paid for seed wheat?


William James Roche: I have not the figures before me now.
Mr. ROiBB: My recollection is, that it ran about $1.53 .a bushel, on the average- it might be a few cents more or a few cents less. I do not know at what price it was sold to the western farmer. Having this in mind, what are we to think of the subsequent action of the Government? They carried out the policy of purchasing seed grain for the western farmer; and then, when the western farmer sends the product of that seed, his crop of 1915, to Fort William, to hold it for an advance on the market, this same Government that had bought the seed wheat at so high a figure, jumps in and commandeers the wheat, fixing a price about 76 cents a bushel under its market value in Liverpool. These facts bear out the statement made by the hon. member for Regina, that this question of seed grain was bungled from start to finish.
But the rights and interests of the people of Canada as a whole must be conserved, and I think that not much fault can be found with the department for seeing to it that this money is collected. I do not see why the western farmer could not pay for his seed grain this year. Surely he cannot expect to be ever in a better position to repay such a loan than he is in this year. I think the Government are justified in doing what they can to collect for the seed grain, without unduly oppressing the farmers. But I submit that the statement of the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin) that this seed grain question has been bungled is borne out by the facts.


William Erskine Knowles: I desire to say a word in reply. My hon. and learned friend from Calgary (Mr. Bennett) offered an observation or two . He did not address himself to the point at issue, but called attention to the qualifications of the person who had brought the subject forward. It may be that I do not know anything about law. Suppose we assume that I am not a lawyer,
but only a farmer. If as a farmer I made the remarks I did, and if the hon. gentleman was familiar with the subject, it would not be necessary for him to rise and make an answer based upon the want of knowledge of law of the person who raised the question. I am afraid the hon. member has proved -so much among kings and queens, and jacks and knaves, that he hardly knows enough to be civil to a back bencher in this House. I do not stand here on my knowledge of law. I am here representing the homesteader, and there is nothing of which I am prouder. I hope that as long as I behave myself I shall retain their confidence and that, no matter how poor a lawyer I may be, and no matter how great a lawyer, or how great an aristocrat, the -hon. member for Calgary may be, I shall still be able to voice the needs of my people. And if the hon. member for Calgary has much more to say, I am afraid I shall have to ask the Solicitor General to tell us again just what kind of a member the hon, member for Calgary is.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Mr. Speaker, I would
ask you if the hon. gentleman is in order in speaking by way of reply on a matter brought forward under rule 39?


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: My opinion is that on such a question as the one before the House, not only the hon. member for Moo-sejaw (Mr. Knowles), but also the hon member for Regina (Mr. Martin), and the hon. the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White), should remember that paragraph (b) of the rule says:
No more than one matter can be discussed on the same motion.
The remarks of the hon. gentleman were very interesting, but I will ask him in future to confine himself within this rule.


William Erskine Knowles: I will observe the rule, Mr. Speaker, and will confine my remarks to a word or two. I desire to explain a matter to the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche), who is always courteous. I did not send him word that I intended to bring this matter forward, but I did send word to the Solicitor General, as it was with that hon. gentleman that I had the discussion. That word did not reach the Solicitor General, though I sent it to his room about three o'clock. Had I thought of it, I would certainly have sent notice to the Minister of

the Interior, but I saw that he was in his place before prayers, and I thought it was' not necessary. After all that has been said the fact remains that the sheriff of Moose-jaw, a large judicial district, has not had word that he is to exempt the people from one-half of this indebtedness for the present. Will the Minister of the Interior wire those instructions to-day? Those farmers who had not executions against them escape with the payment of only half. The hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Bennett) may say what he likes, but if I am asking that which is unreasonable or illegal in regard to those who have executions against them then the department is doing that which is unreasonable and illegal in the case of those who have no executions against them. If the Government can legally excuse those who have not executions, why can they not as well excuse those who have? In the face of the hon. member for Calgary, the Government say they are going to excuse these men to the extent of half, but the sheriff of Moosejaw says that he has nothing on his flies except the order to collect the whole amount. A telegram is cheap-dt will only cost $1.01 with war tax. Will not the Minister of the Interior send a wire-even though he may call it supererogatory-in order to get word to the sheriff in Moosejaw, that the desire of the department is that he should collect from those who have judgments against them only half the debt? I am not trying to make political capital, I am only trying to make it easy for the department to take this necessary action. Will the minister send this wire? And will he refund the money? What I say is not in any contentious spirit, but I only ask the minister will he not be good enough to promise that he will send this telegram?


William James Roche: The hon. member seems bent on getting a promise that the telegram shall immediately be sent. But instructions have already been sent out-I do not know exactly on what day. I promised the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) that I would make inquiries this afternoon and find out when the instructions were sent out, and if they have not had time to arrive in the sheriff's hands by this time, I will see that he is informed. And if the collections have been made in full, we will make a refund of half. What hardship can there be in that, even though a telegram is not sent?


William Erskine Knowles: Can not you wire and save time?
Motion of Mr. Knowles to adjourn the House negatived.



TRAIN SERVICE IN THE WEST.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the day:
Mr. ,T. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia): I wish fo call the attention of the Acting Minister of Railway (Hon. J. D. Reid) to a rather serious condition of affairs that exists in my own constituency. I received to-day the following telegram:
Lampman, Sask., February 1. John G. Turriff, M.P.
Maryfield-Radville branch of Canadian Northern railway had only one train and one mail in last 25 days; whole district short of food and fuel, no real effort made by railway company to relieve situation. Please get matter before Board of Railway Commissioners and Postmaster General. Advise President Lampman, Board of Trade, what can be done to relieve most serious situation.
Dr. Corrigan.
Lampman is about forty miles northeast of Estevan, on the Canadian Northern railway. I can quite understand that the Postmaster General cannot get mail in there if the trains are not running. After a period of such weather as we have had in that part of the country, where it is customary to carry mail by railway, it is a most difficult matter to get the mails carried in by sleigh after these storms. But I think I can say to the Minister of Railways that there is absolutely no excuse for the railway company having only one train in twenty-five days. That line of railway runs. between two lines of the Canadian Pacific railway. So far as I can learn, four days was the longest time that elapsed between trains on the Canadian Pacific line. This stretch of country 150 miles in length has been accustomed to having one passenger train each way every second day,' making one train every day, and many freight trains; and you can imagine what it means to that part of the country to have these trains suddenly cut off and to be given a service of only one train in twenty-five days. As Dr. Corrigan says in his message, the people thefe are Short of food and fuel. This is a most serious matter, deserving of the attention of the Department of Railway im-

mediately-not to-morrow, or the next day, or next week. Coal and fuel must be supplied immediately along that stretch of railway from Radville to Maryfield. Both at Maryfield and at Lampman the Canadian Northern connects with the Canadian Pacific railway, and I have no doubt that the Canadian Northern railway is not in a position to send revolving snowploughs there or the necessary steam power to force trains through and bring relief to these people.
Hon. J. D. REID:: This matter was
brought to my attention a few days ago by the receipt of a telegram addressed to the hon. Minister of Railways, dated January 31, from W. W. Davidson, Mayor of Moose-jaw. This telegram was as follows:
Fuel situation in this section of province is extremely critical. Intense suffering- is prevalent. Canadian Northern and Grand Trunk Pacific completely tied up. Railway Commission on December 4 ordered sixty-five cars per day to be placed at Drumheller for coal, yet within three weeks mines were closed down for want of cars. No substantial quantity coal has been received from this field for three weeks. Movement also very slow on Canadian Pacific railway. Strongly urge you to take this up with Railway Commission that drastic measures may be taken at once to relieve the situation.
When I received that message four days ago, I at once interviewed Sir Henry Drayton, Chairman of the Railway Commission. He told me that he had taken this matter up with the Grand Trunk Pacific, Canadian Northern, and Canadian Pacific Railway Companies, and that his information was that Western Canada was experiencing one of the most severe winters they had ever known; that the cold was very intense the snowstorms very severe- so much so that, according to the information which he had, it was almost impossible for any of the three railway companies mentioned to move their trains. This matter had been before him for several weeks; he had his special officers in that vicinity, urging the railways to do everything they could to prevent distress in that section of the country. He showed me the correspondence that he had had on the subject and the messages that had passed between the several companies. The message from the mayor of Moosejaw was so strong that I felt that I should like to do what I could to assist the Railway Commission, and, if possible, to prevent any distress. The first thing I did was to wire the president of the Canadian Northern Railway Company as follows:
I have received notice situation at Drum-heller and surrounding district suffering for want of coal. Unless immediate action taken and relief given, loss of life may occur. Difficulty caused by your railway not supplying any moving cars. Wire quick what action you propose taking, otherwise I -must bring before Council for their action. I cannot assume responsibility of leaving matter in present cond'i tion longer than to-day.
J. D. Reid,
Acting Minister of Railway,..
I then called up Mr. Bury, the Transportation Manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and discussed the matter with him. I asked him if there was any possibility of the Canadian Pacific railway cooperating with the Canadian Northern railway, and, if the Canadian Northern Railway Company could not get a sufficient quantity of coal out there on account of shortage of motive power or cars, whether they would run trains from Drumheller and get the coal into that locality. Mr. Bury told me over the telephone that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were willing to co-operate in any way they could with the Canadian Northern Company or with the Grand Trunk Pacific Company and that they would do and were doing everything in their power to supply coal along the line of their own railway. That day Mr. Bury communicated to me a message from B. C. Coleman, Assistant general Manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company at Winnipeg, as follows:
We have no advice of any kind on Canadian Pacific railway where there is any suffering, or the possibility of any. Schools and churches have had to be closed temporarily in some towns in southern Manitoba, and southern Saskatchewan, but we have been and will be able to prevent any cases of actual distress by supplying our own engine coal where there is no other fuel available. Lethbridge mines have been kept well supplied with cars. The coal has been moved in preference to all other freight, and there have not been excessive delays, taking into consideration the weather. Supply at many towns on Canadian Pacific has been depleted on account of farmers and others driving from Canadian Northern territory in order to reach our railway for fuel. We will, of course, take fuel from Canadian Northern when offered, and have already arranged with them to do so. We cannot help them on Drumheller line. They have plenty engines, and have said publicly that they have the cars. The trouble is due to cuts having been allowed to fill up with snow, the failure of water supply, and the general absence of facilities on newly built branch lines. It is stated on authority Government recorders that taking Western Canada as a whole this is the worst spell of excessively cold and stormy weather it has ever endured since railways built there. There is a great depth' of snow, and there has been no thaw from former cru&t, and the slightest

breath of wind sets the whole sea in motion. Saskatchewan Government should be asked to notify the General Superintendent at Moose-jaw, and this office, of any report they get which indicates the necessity for special action, and we will see that there is no suffering provided the locality can be reached over our line of railway. It is hard for the railway company to distinguish, between cases where there is a general shortage and places where dealers and others are merely anticipating a difficulty, and if the Government can help in this we will be very glad.
I also wired the mayor of Moosejaw asking him if he could give me the names of any places in particularly urgent need of relief. In addition to that, Sir Henry Drayton had telegrams from the members of the Provincial Government and from the mayor of Moosejaw, and I have before me the whole file showing what he had done. Sir Henry Drayton issued orders that the coal trains were to take precedence over all traffic on the railways. Sir Henry sent a telegram only yesterday to Mr. Drury, the engineer of the commission, urging the Canadian Pacific railway to do all they could, and I have here the reply which I shall read to the House, as it explains the situation so far as the Canadian Pacific railway is concerned. The telegram is:
Montreal, Que., February 2.
From Sir H. Drayton,
Ottawa, Ont.
Referring to your message. Mr. Coleman, our assistant general manager at Winnipeg telegraphs me as follows: " For two years past Moosejaw, Regina, Calgary and Saskatoon have obtained large proportion their domestic coal supply from Drumheller and it is the snow troubles on the Canadian Northern which have caused shortage these cities. This is admitted by the press and has been publicly acknowledged by the coal dealer and is well within the knowledge of Sir Henry's officers on the ground. We agreed soon as Bienfait mines opened up we would take Canadian Northern coal loaded at these mines and would haul to Canadian Northern at Midale. We reached the mines last night and are now getting the switching done. Assistant General Manager Cameron of the Canadian Northern told me yesterday that is would be some time before they could move a car out of Midale as they have cut on line west of there filled to a depth of twenty-two feet. Yesterday to help out city of Regina I started to load up twenty cars Pittsburg coal from our dump at Moosejaw, they agreeing to return this to us from stock of a Winnipeg dealer at Fort William. Five cars this coal to toe delivered Regina to-day,"
Radville and Bengough are not on our lines.
George Bury.
I mention these facts to show you that not only are the Canadian Pacific railway
	.
doing all they possibly can on their own lines, but that an arrangement has been made between the Canadian Northern railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway to co-operate in every way possible to relieve . the situation in that district.
The situation on the Canadian Northern railway line is very bad. On January 29, they wired Sir Henry Drayton, and perhaps this telegram will explain the situation so far as their road is concerned:
Winnipeg, Man., January 29, 1916.
Sir H. L,. Drayton,
Board of Railway Commissioners,
Ottawa, Ont *
Your message date. We are not short of motive power. Wo are, however, in very had shape for water consequent upon the very serious weather that has been experienced. In order that you may know just how our water supply is from Drumheller to Kindersley, I give information connection with our tanks working from west to east Drumheller O.K., Mecheehe very limited supply account extreme cold. Hanna same. Tank between Richdale and Stanmore frozen up entirely. Youngstown only getting about three thousand gallons per day. Chinook same as Youngstown; between Oyen and Benton frozen up entirely; Alsask keeping up at present but account heavy drain afraid may have trouble. Half mile east Flax-combe very limited supply. Kindersley O.K. Water supply at points mentioned thoroughly gone over last summer and if had had average winter weather this year would have experienced no trouble. Been necessary to run water cars on every train between points above mentioned. In order to relieve the territory as much as possible we are sending trains north on the Battle river sub via Vegreville Junction but impossible to tell how long we will he able to do that with any success for reason that water supply on Battle river sub is also bad account extreme cold weather. The supply is as follows; Rumsey frozen up; Big Valley tanks O.K. ; tanks between Warden and Stet-tler frozen up ;[DOT] Red Willow getting about one thousand gallons per day. Between Meeting creek and Edberg frozen up. Half mile south-battle O.K. Roundhill lots of water, but cannot use it account Its quality as engines foam too badly account weather conditions. Engines have had to have their tonnage reduced as much as seventy-five per cent and water consumption handling such reduced tonnage is equal if not greater than would have been in hauling winter tonnage under ordinary conditions. Reports this morning indicate weather is moderating and you can rest assured that every one is on the job and doing everything possible to meet the situation but this winter is one that is extraordinary in the duration of the cold and its intensity.
I have read these telegrams to show that the Railway Commission and the railways have promised me, as Acting Minister of Railways, that they will do everything they possibly can to relieve any possible suffer-

ing in that district, and that they are now doing so.
I have two or three clippings from western papers which confirm these statements. In the Winnipeg Free Press of January 29, I read:
Coal Famine Relieved-Railway Officials adopt Energetic Measures at Saskatoon.
Saskatoon, iSask., Jan. 28.-The coal famine here has been relieved, due to energetic measures adopted by Canadian Northern railway officials to spot cars at the Drumheller field, cars have been promised all mines there tomorrow. A few cars have been arriving each day here and there is no likelihood of suffering unless the weather takes a decided turn for the worse. The storm here during the last few days has not been severe and trains have been running fairly well up to schedule time.
.Snowstorm delays Trains.
The Canadian Pacific railway time-table has been entirely disorganized through the continued snowstorm throughout the country, and system has had to be disregarded. The Imperial Limited from the East, due to reach, Winnipeg at 11.15 yesterday morning, was at midnight reported due here about 3.30 o'clock this morning, while the night Imperial Limited will not be there until late this morning. Trains from the west are likewise hours behind time, but an attempt is being made to keep the local service well to schedule.
i have another long article here from the Winnipeg Free Press, dated from Regina, January 28, which as no doubt the hon. member has seen, it will not be necessary to read. In addition to the steps I have described, the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr, Knowles) who, of course, is greatly interested in this matter, was over at the office of the Railway Commission yesterday when I happened to be there. The chairman of the Railway Commission assured him that everything the commission could do was being done; and, in addition to that, I told him that everything that the Government could do was being done and also that the railways were themselves doing everything in their power. My hon. friend was good enough to notify all of the officials interested in this matter that he intended to bring it to the attention of the House this afternoon, and so I have brought with me the whole file on the subject. I have also Sir Henry Drayton's file. Both of these files are at the hon. gentleman's disposal, and I am sure that when he has read them he will be satisfied that everything that it is possible to do is being done to meet the situation.
I only wish to say in conclusion that I regret exceedingly that there has been any suffering in the West; but since the matter was first brought to my .attention I have satisfied myself that the several railway companies are doing everything they possibly can to relieve the situation. I. understand that the .main trouble is on the Canadian Northern railway; but, from the information I have gathered, not only from personal conversations, but from messages that have passed between us, I am confident that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company are willing to do anything under heaven to relieve the situation, either by taking coal from the Canadian Northern, or, if necessary, by running their trains over the Canadian Northern line. The correspondence I have had with the chairman of the Railway Commission leads me to the conclusion that he has done everything possible to relieve any suffering that may exist in those districts.


John Gillanders Turriff: I would like to hand this telegram to the hon. .minister, and to point out that Lampman is at a disadvantage compared with points like Moosejaw and Saskatoon, where the three Toads enter. Yet Lampman is only 25 miles from the Souris coal mine, to which the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern have tracks, so that the railways would only have to run a train a distance of 25 miles to get coal to that point.


John Dowsley Reid: I .may say that the chairman of the Railway Commission has sent telegrams to the mayor of Moosejaw and the members of the Saskatchewan Government, asking them to give the names of the places that are in most urgent need of relief, and stating that these cases would be attended to. Wje have .also asked the railway companies to see that aid is sent to these places as early as possible. I may say for the hon. member's information that the Canadian Pacific railway is taking the coal from its dumps at the several divisions in the West and -rushing it to the places in need. I am satisfied that, if we get the names of the places requiring aid, the Railway Commission and the railway companies between them, will see that no suffering continues if it can possibly be helped.



THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.


[Stage Direction]
Consideration of the motion of Mr. Alfred Thompson for an address to His Royal Highness the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, resumed from Tuesday, February 1.
The Hon. E. L. PATENATJDE (Minister of Inland Revenue):: (Translation). Mr. Speaker, the address of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) I have listened to last evening and read this morning with pleasure. I took a personal interest in that part of his speech where, with apparent surprise, he inquires whether there shall not be forthcoming a reply to the attacks that have been heard in this House during the past few days concerning the dispute which is being waged since 191011 in the province of Quebec, and even in a section of the province of Ontario. I am in a position to reply forthwith-and, after all, he must have surmised-that those attacks will not be left unanswered, and I myself will endeavour to deal with them, to the extent that they can be dealt with by a man who claims to profess the code of honour.
In the meantime, he will no doubt accept my very sincere congratulations on the sentiments and ideas he gave expression to last evening regarding the rights of the French language in this country. His remarks on that subject were characterized by a moderation that must strongly appeal to the feelings and judgment of all fair-minded citizens of Canada. In fact, such dispassionate arguments are particularly effective towards bringing about a peaceful settlement of those differences which occasionally crop up in our midst.
I have also listened to attacks based on reports more or less complete, and more or less accurate, and, in certain cases, without anything to rest on but garbled accounts.
It is not in my mind to deny in any way the stand I took in 1910-11. My purpose, on the contrary, is to face it squarely as a man of honour ought to do.
I shall first of all reply to the strictures made by the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) on the 24th of January, and to be found at page 34 of Hansard.

In the course of his speech the hon. member referred to a resolution which was put before the legislature of the province of Quebec during the session of 1910. I remember the circumstances which had prompted it, as well as the different considerations set forth in its preamble. Of course, it is the hon. member's privilege to criticise our motives in introducing that motion, but I think he should have exercised that privilege with absolute sincerity and represented the facts in their true light. It is a rather odd circumstance that, instead of reading the whole resolution, he was careful to suppress three paragraphs, which considerably alters the meaning.
What do they say? Following the first paragraph quoted by the hon. member, and which is to be found included in his speech as reported in Hansard, there are three others which he has not mentioned, but which I shall now read to the House:
That the minister had no authority of any kind to anticipate in this manner the opinion of the electors of this province on this serious question which at the time was about to be submitted to the Dominion Parliament;
That the numerous protests which have been heard in this province as in many others against the new policy have shown that the Minister of Public Works and Labour has not accurately expressed the opinion of the people of this province;
That neither the Prime Minister nor any of his colleagues have repudiated the statements of the Minister of Public Works and Labour;
It seems to me that in all fairness the hon. member for Pictou ought to have quoted the motion as worded when introduced in the Legislative Assembly of Quebec in 1910, and he would then have been spared all the comments he thought fit to make.
The general scope given to this debate, comprising as it does the peculiar attacks made in this House, as well as in certain newspapers, point to a desire in certain quarters to spread throughout the country and have the people believe the story that there exists in Canada a group of citizens who are not loyal to the British Crown. I say that such a fable ought not to be given currency, and its authors should be censured rather than the men who on each side of this' House are endeavouring to fulfil their duty.
Well, let everything be read over that has been said in the province of Quebec during the past year, or during the last ten years, and I do not think that in a single

instance any motive may be found to doubt the loyalty of any group of citizens in the province of Quebec.
The remarks of the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe) made the other day, and those of the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) last evening, lead one to believe that the recruiting in Quebec has flagged owing to the campaign against the Naval Act in the elections of 1911.
If in the province of Quebec recruiting has been flagging, it is due to speeches delivered throughout the province and which have dispirited public opinion and spread the notion that this Government had led the *country astray when it had Tesolved to take a hand in the war now raging in Europe.
At any rate, if the members of the Government deserve criticism and censure, I hold that the Liberal party is not entitled to demand explanation, considering the means taken by them to attain power in 1896. In this connection it may be of some interest to recall the appeal which the Liberal party made throughout the province of Quebec a few days before the elections. The day following nomination day, L'Electeur, the official mouthpiece of the Liberal party in the district of Quebec, published an article of which I will read a few excerpts. The same article was on the next day'reproduced in Le Soi-r, a paper published at Montreal and founded to the sole end of boosting the Liberal cause; it disappeared a few days after the election.
Do you wish for war? Three millions of dollars for muskets, guns and bayonets

An imminent danger to you, farmers.
One of the whims of old Tupper is an imperial federation between Great Britain and all its colonies, particularly Canada.
One of the conditions of such an alliance would be that in wartime Canada would he called upon to pay its share of the cost in money and in men.
And as England is constantly warring with some country, we would have continuously to pay taxes to contribute the money and draw lots to furnish the men.
In return, England would decorate these shrewd politicians, conferring a baronetcy on this one, a knighthood on another and appointing a third a commander of some order or other.
But the common people would continue to be used as food for cannon.
And lower down:
Why fight for Great Britain?
And still further:
Tour sons will be sent to Africa and Asia, whence there will be no returning.
Vote for Laurier and his candidates if you wish to see your country enjoy continued peace and yourself free from the risk of having at any moment to depart for foreign lands leaving behind you your wife, your children, and all you hold dear.
That manifesto, published on the eve of polling day in the two leading French Liberal organs, was printed separately and distributed in bunches throughout the length and breadth of the province.
I would not attach too much importance to that article. The Liberal party itself- and I would be fair to them-has acknowledged that it was an election dodge. Le Soleil of the 19th of November, 1915, spoke as follows of the article I have just read:
"That article headed: 'Do you wish for war?' showed on its very face that it was part of election tactics such as all political parties and papers at all times contrive during an electoral struggle."
And that article of Le Soleil concluded with the following admission:
That article of L'Electeur during the electoral campaign of 1896, is one of those traps set during the hunt by not over-scrupulous hunters.
I will be told, doubtless, that those facts are of ancient date. Let us come nearer to 1916. With the consent of the House, I will now read the report of a meeting held at St. Hubert, ifi the county of Temiscouata, by the member for that constituency. It appeared in Le St. Laurent in its issue of the 1st of July, 1915. The heading is: Mr. Charles Gauvreau, M.P., at St. Hubert.
Mr. Gauvreau, on Sunday, the 27,th of June, took advantage of his visit at St. Hubert to deliver an address to his electors.
One of those clear and warm days of the end of June favoured the meeting, which was attended by the whole parish. By the acclamations of the audience, it could be easily seen that the Liberal policy, expounded with eloquence and conviction was commending itself to the electors.
Mr. Gauvreau endeavoured to keep within the limits of a faithful recital of the events that have taken place during the last year and to lay bare the doings of the mountebanks that govern us at Ottawa. He spoke at length on the war and the manner in which it is carried on both in Europe and in Canada, and he put the ques-

tion as to when it may be expected to end. If, according to those who know best, it has barely begun, what then will be Canada's fate? We sent at the start 25,000 troops, said he, and of those, nearly half have been killed, wounded, made prisoners or interned, 35,000 more are now on the firing line and the ranks are being constantly decimated, so much so that a call has been sent out for 30,000 more who will have to be made ready to cross over by the end of July, so that by the end of September 140,000 will have been taken from our midst to go to the front to be killed or be interned for who knows how many years: 140,000 of whom our country will be deprived and whose loss it will feel.
And the expenses are proportionate to the number of departing soldiers. It is estimated that by September the war will cost $1,400,000 a day.	,
A few days later, on the 14th of October, 1915, Le St. Laurent, published a report of a meeting Iheld by the Identical Mr. 'Giauv-rea/u, at Notre Diaime du Portage, sotae electors from that locality voting in Kam-ouraska:
Messrs. Lapointe and Stein and Mr. Charles Gauvreau at Notre Dame du Portage.
Messrs. Lapointe and Stein have at Notre Dame du Portage some electors who vote in Kamouraska. In concert with Mr. C. A. Gauvreau, they held a political meeting on Sunday after mass.
Mr. Lapointe, always popular with the masses whom he carries away by his glowing and earnest eloquence in a few minutes passed in review the whole Federal arena: the Lau-rier Administration with its surpluses, the Conservative regime with its squandering and deficits ; the enormous expenditure for the Civil Service, the war tax, which is not destined, as he so truly said, for Joffre or French hut for Mr. Bob Rogers; the increase in the Budget and the public debt and the Liberal protests against all these taxes and increases in the tariff with which the country is being saddled by the Tories.
And here we have the same member ask-ding uis Itttie other diay to go into the province of Quebec and hold recruiting meetings to explain our position. I understood the ex-Minister of Railways also last evening to complain of an abatement in the enlistment in the province of Quebec, as well as in certain other regions. With recruiting speeches -such as have been m-ade by the members for Temiscouata -and Kam-ouraska, it is mot to be wondered at if recruiting is not as brisk as certain people state.

I do not intend to dilate any longer on this subject, -but were I inclined to follow these gentlemen on the ground on wh-i-ch they have placed themselves I would only have to turn over the files and -get at the reports of their speeches delivered in different p-airts of the province o'f Quebec. I might discover things very unpleasant for my horn. friends on the other sidle of the House; but I wish not to be aggressive, or disagreeable, my -sole object being to reply to the attacks to which I was personally subjected. I shall do it in all possible fairness, and I hope that my remarks will be understood in their proper meaning. Such is my reason for refraining from making comments upon the articles and speeches written and delivered in the province of Quebec. I trust that during this -session, as well as during ensuing sessions, it will not -be found necessary to revert to subjects which carry with them such unpleasantness and require such delicate handling. By the way it does seem to me that if account is taken of the peculiar circumstances and the critical phases of the hour, it had been better to make an end of such discussions, which can result in no benefit for the province of Quebec nor the country as a whole.
In this connection may I foe allowed to read a page, which I consider exquisitely written from the pen of the well-known author, Pierre Loti, to be found in L'll-lustration of October 30, 1915:
At Soissons.
The basilica itself, as well as its surroundings, is enwrapped in an agonizing silence, broken at intervals by the boom of the cannon. Written on the bishop's dais can still be made out a motto, which amidst such dilapidation reads like an ironical anathema hurled at the barbarians: " Pax et justitia."
As you step forward on the heaps of ruins, you reverently turn aside from the precious fragments of stained glass; you would rather not hear under your foot the small clinking music of crushing glass.... All the gleams of a summer evening, unusual in these sanctuaries, stream through the gaping rifts or through the beautiful Gothic windows which are no longer held by their fastenings. And the double range of pillars recedes in front or you in a vista of white luminosity, like two rows of white stems of giant reeds.
As we leave the cathedral, and take one of the deserted streets, we come to a wall con-

cealed under printed posters, which the shells seem to have made it their task to tear to pieces-posters that press themselves as close together as possible encroaching on their edges, jealous, as it were, of their space, and appearing as if they tried to cover and eat up one another. They have been riddled with shells; but some lines can still be discerned. They must be the most important lines, as they are printed in bolder type, designed to take the eye-" Treason ! shameless bluff '. " howls one of the bills-" Vile slander, infamous lie! " shouts back the other in huge letters clinging to each other like harlots.. . . AVhat is the meaning of it all, great Heavens? "Oh, so! all the wretchedness of our petty squabbles of the last election! It has remained posted there, as in a pillory, and still legible notwithstanding the rains of two summers and the snows of one winter!
It seems to me the above quotation is appropriate, as a sequel to certain utterances which hon. gentlemen will remember. I think also that it could well be read in many sections of the country; that it could be reproduced in the newspapers, and that if a little dust were strewn, especially after the clash of our election campaigns, some good would result to our compatriots and our fellow countrymen in general.
I now come to a discussion of the situation as it was to be found at the time of the general elections in 1911 and when war was declared in 1914. I have no hesitation in *saying right here that in 1911 I attacked as vigorously as I could the Government and the party that were managing the country. I upheld the platform and views of the Conservative party, save as regards its naval programme. I opposed that platform in all sincerity, because such was my conviction. On the other hand I have no more hesitation in stating to-day that since the month of August, 1914, I put forth every possible effort to help the country and Government in their endeavours to contribute to the defence of a most sacred cause.


Mr. PROULX:: (Translation). The circumstances had altered.


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: (Translation). It is quite true that the circumstances were in 1914 entirely different from those that were to be found in 1911.


Edmond Proulx: (Translation). Previous to 1911 you were not in power.


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: We shall never think much of Imperialism, under any form.
Any move, however distant, towards Imperialism or Imperial federation seems to us objectionable.
The Toronto Globe of the 5th of April. 1907, also said:
If it became necessary to participate in the active defence of the Empire, Canadians would be found ready, as in the past; but such an occurrence seems remote, and even unlikely for years to come and, in the meantime, Canadians would rather use their resources for the development of their country, realizing that thus will they work in the best possible manner to strengthen the Empire.
We cannot spend our money in building all at once railways and battleships, and even in the interest and for the defence of the Empire; the extension of our railway system, and all it means, is the most satisfactory policy.
Le Soleil lastly, in its issue of the 19th of February, 1907, stated as follows:
To attempt to draw the colonies into the turmoil of European jealousies would only result in jeopardizing uselessly their development, and draining their resources to no purpose without any certain profit to the Empire."
I shall, I hope, be excused from reading articles from other Liberal newspapers. The reply may be made that such were the opinions of mere journalists. But I say on the contrary those statements expressed faithfully the views held at that time by the Liberal leaders. I say that they reflected the opinion expressed by the leader himself and'by the hon. member for Kou-ville (Mr. Lemieux). In July, 1903, at a convention of the boards of trade of the whole Empire held at Montreal, it was declared that Canada although recognizing its obligation to aid the mother country, yet wished to maintain its right to determine for itself the manner of its co-operation. The Nationalist league held a meeting to protest against . this declaration; !Mr. Rodolphe Lemieux was invited to attend. He replied that he could not do so for purely personal reasons, but in the course of his letter he stated his views on the question and I call attention to the following extract:
Allow me, however, to express my surprise at seeing that the delegates of the Canadian Boards of Trade and particularly those of the province of Quebec, have thought fit to support a resolution which affirms an absolutely false principle, namely: that the colonies are

subject to the obligation of participating in the defence of the Empire.
I need not say that the Canadians can in no way be hound by such a declaration. Under what treaty would it he desired to add to the respective rights and duties of the Empire and its colonies? What authority is vested in our boards of trade to permit them to involve the country's future?
The Canadian Parliament alone, has the right to assume such a responsibility and I have no hesitation in declaring that the Drummond resolution in no way expresses the calm and deliberate opinion of the Canadian nation.
On the contrary, the dignified attitude taken last year (1902) at the Intercolonial Conference by the Prime Minister of Canada is that which faithfully represents the people's sentiment.
Such Weis the platform extolled in the election campaign of 1911, and which affirmed the principle that, unless urged by extraordinary conditions, such as. have arisen in 1914, Canada ought not to participate in the wars of the Empire. That policy of the Liberal party we have upheld. Whether we were right or wrong, what stands out clearly in all this matter is that the political principles of which I have just spoken were professed by the Liberal party and its leaders and equally by the Conservative party and its leaders. It still remains true that the extremely important problem of the mutual relationship of the Empire anid its colonies is awiatMmg 'Solution in the future. It will rise again for the coming statesmen to -solve in the best possible manneT. Possibly our attitude of 1911 may fee eiondjeimmed, as possibly may the Conservative viewpoint. Possibly also the Liberal position may then be repudiated. The question is merely being held in abeyance since the declaration of war in 1914- But after the war is over, after victory shall have rewarded the efforts of the allies, who daTe hold that the problem which has divided us so profoundly in 1910 and 1911 will not again be the subject of dispute? And no one can foresee on what lines a settlement may be effected. That is why I cannot abide -by the criticism proffered by some hon. gentlemen on the other side.
In 1914 the war broke out, and, as 1 stated a moment ago, there was an end to all bickerings. However, that may be stating the case too strongly, in view of the opinions which, as late as yesterday, were given utterance to by my hon. friend from Nicollet (Mr. Lam-aricthe), opinions of a sort

ter should not be left unprovided. Accordingly the Patriotic Fund was at once organized, and with what result? A keen rivalry developed between urban and rural communities in the blatter of contributions. Poor as well as rich, lowly as well as exalted, acquitted themselves creditably.
The citizens of Montreal and Toronto, who quite recently donated $5,000,000 to help carry on the work of the Patriotic Fund, are entitled to special praise.
To secure that result, the citizens of Montreal met and resolved themselves into a certain number of squads between which the work was divided, so as to secure prompter returns.
A hearty welcome was extended -to these workers wherever they showed themselves. More particularly, at a banquet given in their honour, the foremost citizens of the metropolis appeared as their patrons. That banquet was presided over by a gentleman well-known to the hon. members of this House, and whose administrative ability and devotion to the British Crown were recently acknowledged by our Gracious Sovereign; I am alluding to Lord Shiaugfbnessy of Monifereial and Ashford. At his side one could see the Archbishop of Montreal, who by his presence and his words was anxious to help in the common [DOT] cause. Allow me, by the way, to mention the glorious part taken by the Sulpicians of Montreal, unassuming priests who devote their lives to the welfare of their countrymen, who _have organized numerous benevolent institutions, have within the last year endowed Montreal with a splendid library, and in the course of the last fifteen months, have subscribed $35,000 to the Patriotic Fund.
In looking over the subscriptions of Montreal, it will be found that, out of this enormous subscription of $2,500,000, nearly $500,000 have been contributed by the working-class, by the men who win their bread by the sweat of their brow. That contribution of $500,000 is the mite of the poor man who is also anxious to do his bit in the war. The wage-earner within his limited means is giving as much as the moneyed man with his millions. In all benevolent enterprises it is not so much the amount that counts as the spirit in which it is given.

Before concluding, allow me to quote a page from a French author, 'which I am sure, will be found highly interesting. It will be the summary and the conclusion of my speech. The quotation is from the pen of Mr. Henri Lavedan;
Solemn Hours.
A Day with the Dead.
"The Dead''-...Two words that already have lost their old meaning. The only plausible thought they now convey is of the victims of the war. Those soldiers, giving their lives on the battlefield, have, it seems, taken unto themselves, denying it to those who depart this life in vulgar peacefulness, the grand name of death, of which they have become, in a way, the titulars. The trivial act of dying they have exalted to the height of a distinction. For a long time to come, the term will retain the heroic meaning they breathed into it. It will be difficult for the mind to picture death otherwise than in' a soldier's uniform, facing the enemy and receiving the last sacrament of fire.
To-morrow our supreme hour in turn may come. While our loved ones, surrounding the couch of their spoiled sufferer, will vie with each other to allay the bitterness of his last moments, we shall recall the readiness and patience of our glorious departed and we shall strive, from here below, to initiate their fortitude. Their example moreover will have sustained us to the end, because their death was vivifying. Their loss of course casts over us a boundless sadness that will not fade away, but our grief is not a gloom that leads to despair and dejection, it does not beget doubt and revolt; it exalteth and appeaseth.
If it be not left to us to do in every way as they have done, we may at least think, believe, decide as they; we may perpetuate in us their healthy ideas and their honest resolutions; remodel our hearts and minds to the image of their own and strive to resemble them. . .Let us come out of ourselves a little and fashion our ideals on those beautiful models; let us follow the path they have hewn out for us; let us make ours their views and practice of life, and in so doing we shall give them that supreme joy, which they have so dearly paid for in advance, of knowing that their life is being continued in our great designs, our lofty flights, and our works. Give them the proud comfort of seeing themselves perpetuated all through the future generations and contemplating eternally the excellence of their labour. The earth holds their bodies only; their countless souls are liberated, and God does not take it all; He purposely leaves a part of it free to operate within us. Let us inhale, as a gift of the Holy Ghost, this flame which flashes out of the soldier's grave and twinkles across the glorious battlefields... "


Mr. M. J. DEMERS (St. John and Iberville) :: Mr. Speaker, since the inception of this debate we have listened to many very interesting, nay, very eloquent addresses. By the way, I want especially to congratulate the hon. member from Bonaventure on the splendid piece of oratory with which he treated us yesterday, and which, I am sure, has deeply moved the whole House. It shall remain as one of the most dignified and ablest vindications of the rights of an oppressed minority. I dare hope that his effort of yesterday shall bear fruit and be the signal of a great effort on the part of every honest-minded Canadian anxious to have justice, peace and harmony prevail throughout this broad land of Canada.
I also want to congratulate the hon. member from Nicolet, for, though I do not concur in all his views, I am pleased to admit, and every member of this House is no doubt of the same mind, that he is courageous and energetic, that with him convictions go before everything, even before selfinterest; in a word, that he is an honest man.
He had some plain, though unpleasant, truths to tell his former companions in arms, but on this side of the House we are all of opinion that it served them right.
As to the speech of the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue, it was expected with a great deal of interest and curiosity. That interest and curiosity were only natural, seeing that the hon. minister only yesterday was unknown to this House, and that every one was and is still asking what considerations could have induced the Prime Minister to overlook the whole French-Canadian Conservative representation and choose one of his colleagues outside of the House.
I know that the choice of a French-Canadian minister on the Government side is a very delicate matter, that it was so in 1911. It has become a rather intricate matter since the outbreak of the war, considering that the participation of Canada in the wars of the Empire is one of the principal planks in the platform of the Government, and that all the French-Canadian members on the right have been elected because they upheld the opposite principle, that of abstention. But the right hon. Prime Minister had no alternative; he had to fill the ranks of his Cabinet. After much hesitation and wobbling he made up his mind and came to the conclusion that he had better select a man who, never having been very much in the public eye, was not so
liable to suspicion. His choice went to the person who had been the' Conservative organizer in the district of Montreal, not only since the war, but as far back as 1911. Has the choice of the Prime Minister proved satisfactory to his followers in Quebec? I do not think so. On the contrary, I believe that it has disappointed them and that they cannot account for it, being satisfied that the political principles of the new minister are theirs, that if they have changed so has he, that if they were Nationalists so was he, that if they have disowned their former leaders, Mr. Monk and Mr. Bourassa, he also has disowned them. I almost see them thinking hard to find out the reasons for that choice and asking; "Is it that perchance the Prime Minister might think that the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue was more or less a Nationalist than we were, that he is more or less a Conservative than we are?"
True it is, they must say to themselves, that the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue had the honour of presiding over that large meeting held at the Ontario street skating rink in Montreal, a meeting called for the purpose of celebrating the victory of Nationalism in Drummond and Arthabaska, when the cheers nearly brought down the walls of the hall, when the defenders of the cause gave forth for the hundredth time their political creed: No participation, no contribution; we owe nothing to England. Down with Laurier! Down with Borden! Long live Monk! Long live Bourassa! But if he presided, we cheered.
True it is, they must say to themselves, that at St. Remi the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue, in passionate and fiery tones, has preached the Nationalist principles, but we have done the same on several occasions. Who has given him the preference? Is it that the hon. minister is now extolling the duties and obligations of Canada towards the Empire? Is it that he is now willing to give the last farthing, to sacrifice the last man in order to save that same Empire against which we have all exerted our tongues in former days? Evidently not, for now that is also our policy, those are our principles.
Mr. Speaker, the French-Canadian Conservatives are not satisfied with the appointment of the new minister. As his colleagues had done 'before him in former sessions, the hon. minister has endeavoured Ito explain what he has done in the past. I bear him no grudge for that, but for his sake I regret that he should have done so.



It would have been 'better for him, it seems to me, had he purely and simply acknowledged his errors instead of trying to palliate them. A confession could have brought 'him forgiveness.
He has thought fit to follow another course; I regret it for his own sake, and I shall say this to him: Does he believe for a moment that the people of Quebec can have faith in his statements of to-day? The electors of Quebec still have ringing in their ears the fiery appeals to passions and popular prejudices made by the Opposition speakers of 1911. There is not in Quebec a young man twenty years old who could not quote from memory some of their jewelled sentences uttered at all and every one of their meetings. The people of Quebec take as an insult to them the record of the Conservative members since 1911.
For my part, Sir, I am not in the least moved by what I hear in this House; I do not take the trouble of answering the explanations that are given; I have no need of newspaper clippings to show what was said in 1911. It is sufficient for me to know that the people heard and understood, that they are honest and that they remember.
Therefore I patiently leave the \hon. Minister of Inland Revenue trying to arrange his berth, to while away the time he iwill spend in it. The day of reckoning shall come, and) the greater the in'sdghit the people will have into the snares and false pretences made use of in order to delude them, the greater will be the punishment.
I state in all sincerity that I had not intended to take part in the debate and that I have been led into it by statements made by the hon. minister who has just taken his seat. Now that I am on my feet I shall take occasion to make two or three remarks.
Several speakers have urged upon the Government the necessity of an inquiry into the various items of expenditure for war purposes and I deem it my duty to deal (with that very matter.
A man I hold very respectable and trustworthy has given us information which I feel it my duty to lay before the House.
I ani told that the superintendent of the hay presses repair shops has made a profit of twenty-five to thirty-five thousand dollars by paying on an average 25 cents an hour to the employees while he was getting from the Government for those employees an amount of 60 cents an hour, and that he was dismissed after many complaints had been received. It would be interesting
fMr. Demers.]
to know, first, whether what is said is true or not, and if so, whether the Government propose to .compel that man to hand back the amounts which have been embezzled.
I am told also that a large quantity of No. 2 hay has been passed as No. 1 hay; that two of the chief employees at shed No. 25 in Montreal have given instructions to receive some rotten hay without an inspection, and that in a certain case the inspectors have been compelled to accept that bad hay; that several traders had to pay a tip of $1 for every wagon load of inspected hay; that a buyer of hay at Drummondville used to pay six or seven dollars for hoard in a private family, and that he got from an hotel clerk in that town a receipted board bill for $15, which bill he showed to the Government, who paid his hoard, besides $5 a day for his services; that an inspector has received from the hay contractors $15 a week for his board, which was paid by the Government; that thousands of wagon loads of hay from which 25 to 30 bales were missing, have been shipped as complete; and finally that a German - by the name of Schultz has been kept in the Civil Service for sixteen months as an examiner notwithstanding numerous representations as to the danger of keeping that official on account of his origin, and that he has been dismissed but a fortnight ago.
I think that the statements I am now making to the House could perhaps have some bearing upon the conclusion which the Government shall reach as to whether or not an inquiry should be held.
Now, Sir, let me say a word about that part of the speech from the Throne which relates to the war and to the necessity of securing by all available means the triumph of the holy and sacred cause of the Allies. Not a dissenting voice is to be heard in this House as to the duty of the hour. We must exert all our strength and energy to make final victory a certainty.
During recess I have often addressed my fellow-countrymen at patriotic meetings, and I am glad to say that a large majority of them fully understand their duties and obligations. One and all they realize that it is a question of life or death, not only for England, France and the allied nations, but for Canada also. We realize in Quebec that Canada is eminently the land of freedom, freedom for which we are indebted to the protection afforded us by the British flag. There is not in Quebec a French-Camadian who would be willing to transfer

has allegiance from constitutional England to despotic Germany and to see the province of Quebec, for instance, submitted to the ostracism and tyranny which Alsace and Lorraine have felt fox forty-four years under German domination.
There is not a French-Canadian who does not realize that England's defeat would mean Canada's defeat, bringing with it the exacting of a tribute by the victor from the vanquished, the loss of our liberties, of our autonomy, the renewal upon our Canadian soil of all the atrocities which were a factor in the consummation of the martyrdom of glorious Belgium. Therefore, I think that we can fearlessly contend that Quebec has done its duty so far.
In concluding, Sir, let me say that the French-Canadian people have witnessed with deep satisfaction ithe recruiting of regiments entirely composed of French-Canadians. The French-Canadian race is naturally a peace-loving race, but we would not have been of our race had not the atrocities, the acts of savagery and the iniquities of the German brute stirred up the generous blood which flows in our veins, and had it not urged us to the greatest sacrifices. Our countrymen's answer to the call to arms has been worthy 'of our extraction and traditions. Our sons, our brothers and our friends have generously enlisted themselves and it is confidently that we saw them go to the front, knowing they will always do honour to the French-Canadian name, that everywhere they will prove themselves the true offsprings of Dollard, d'Iberville, de Salaberry and that host of gallant fellows whose hearts have never known fear. We know that we shall always find them in the path of honour and fame; accounts of their prowess now fill our souls with pride and glory. We have so far done our duty in the province of Quebec, we shall do it to the last to ensure the triumph of the cause of civilization and justice.
Motion of Mr. Alfred Thompson for an Address to His Royal Highness the Governor General agreed to.


Robert Rogers: That the said Address be engrossed and presented to H s Royal Highness the Governor General by such members of this House as are of the honourable ihe Privy Council.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance), it was ordered that this House
34i
do to-morrow resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White, it was ordered that this House do to-morrow resolve itself into a committee to consider of the ways and means for raising the Supply to be granted to His Majesty.
On motion of Hon. Robert Rogers, the House adjourned at 5.20 p.m.
Thursday, February 3, 1916.