1916-05-08

PRIVATE ADOLPHE GRENIER.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MARCIL:: I wish to call the attention of the Prime Minister, who is also Acting Minister of Militia, to a case that has been placed before me by the Rev. J.
O.	Dube, parish priest of iSt. Godefroy, in the county of Bonaventure, relating to Private Adolphe Grenier No. 416278, of the 24th, formerly 41st Overseas Battalion. This is rather an unusual case. This young man, 20 years of age, enlisted in Hull
on February 18, 1915, and was reported on the 13th of March last as having been " killed in action March 3rd." On attestation the name and address of the next of kin were not stated. He was the adopted son of Pierre LeCourtois and his wife, Genevieve Roussy. These people took him when he was two months old, and brought him up until he was 20 years of age. Last year he happened to be in Hull working for a lumber firm, and he enlisted there and went to the front. He gave on enlistment the name of Adolphe Grenier, presuming that this was the name of his father, although he had been brought up by these two persons whom I have mentioned, who are very humble fishing folks. The question now arises who will succeed to whatever balance of pay has been left by him, and an insurance policy of $1,000 which he has referred to in two scraps of letters which I have in my hand. One of these is written in lead pencil and in it he says he is taking out an insurance policy on behalf of his adopted mother. There is a second letter, dated 12 August, 1915, in which he bids her a fond farewell on the eve of going into action, and hopes he will be able to get through all right, but if he does not he leaves everything to her. It is rather a pathetic letter, and looks as if he had a premonition of his fate. He refers to the sacrifice he is about to make for his Mother Country, England and Canada, and for all the citizens of this country. In addition to this, there is a letter, which I think worth reading, from the commanding Dfiicer of the corps to which this young man belonged:
Flanders, 19/3/16.
Dear Mr. Grenier :
Ere this letter reaches you, you will no doubt have heard from the department at Ottawa of the death of your son.
As his Commanding Officer I desire to place on record my appreciation of the faithful and efficient services which he has rendered and which has been an inspiration to all ranks
I count it a great honour to have in my battalion quite a number of French Canadian soldiers, and they have all been looked upon by my officers and myself as the mainstay of the section to which they belong.
If at any time I can be of service to you, please write me, and if spared, I shall be only too glad to do anything I can to show my deep appreciation of the good work done by your son.
On behalf of my officers, N.C.O.'s and men, I extend our heartfelt sympathy.
Believe me,
Yours sincerely,
J. H. Gunn, Lt.-Col.

From this correspondence, which the reverend gentleman has sent .to me, I see that the officer in charge of the estates of deceased soldiers says that it may take about four or five months before the department will be in a position to deal with the case. The reverend gentleman calls attention to the unusual circumstances that no kin are referred to in the attestation. He was the adopted son of these people; and by these letters, which evidently are a .testament, whatever legal value they may have, he has left all that belonged to him to hie adopted mother, Mrs. Pierre Le-Courtois.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 

PRICE OF CODFISH IN PORTUGAL.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. LOGGIE:: I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce a matter which I deem important.
I have here a letter dated Oporto, 19th April, 1916. I need not read the whole letter. The concluding paragraph is as follows:
Owing to the high prices to which food has risen in this country, due in great measure to the low exchange, the Government recently appointed Food Commissioners to study the question. Yesterday a law came into force fixing arbitrary maximum prices for codfish considerably below the prices at which we have been selling, these being already below what shippers require for their fish. The law mentions codfish but does not specify the origin. We are therefore in doubt as to whether it applies to imported fish or only to the Portuguese cure. In the meantime we have closed all our stores and have applied to the Civil Governor for a definition of the codfish coming within the decree. We have also made representations of our case to the British minister at Lisbon.
I shall baud this letter to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and ask him to
[Mr. Marcil.l
take such action as he thinks in the interest of Canada.



PAYMENTS TO SOLDIERS' RELATIVES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of .the day:
Mr. PUGSLEY:: May I -ask the Acting Minister of Militia, who has special charge of the payment over of the portion of the pay of soldiers which may be assigned by them to their relatives? The reason I ask is that I have a very strong letter relating to the case of a young man-and the gentleman who wrote me thinks there are quite a number of similar instances-who arranged that a portion of his pay should go to his mother. The young man is now in England having been wounded; but the information which I have is that for five months no pay has been received by the mother. I cannot help thinking there is some explanation. I hesitate to read the letter to the House, and perhaps I had better send a copy to the Prime Minister.


Robert Laird Borden: The Accountant Paymaster General in Ottawa would give to my hon. friend all information which would make it possible for him to communicate with' those who have charge of the matter. There is an overseas paymaster, whose relation to the paymaster at headquarters here is that of district paymaster, I think. I shall endeavour to direct their attention to the matter, and if my hon. friend will send the information in his possession to the Accountant Paymaster General of the Department of Militia and Defence, it will receive attention here, or will be put in train to receive attention on the other side.


William Pugsley: I will send a copy of the letter to my right hon. friend.



ST. BERNARD-ST. MAXIME MAIL CONTRACT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. LEMIEUX:: I call the attention of
the Postmaster General to a telegram I have received and regarding which I have been asked to place a question on the Order Paper; but, as I presume time is limited now, the Postmaster General might give me the information to-morrow. I wish to know the names of the tenderers and the terms of the contract for the carriage of the mails between St- Bernard and St. Maxirae de Scotts in Dorchester county.



PRIVATE BILLS.


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Bill No. 96, for the relief of David Whims-ter Rhodes.-Mr. Boys.

[Stage Direction]
Amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 31, to incorporate the Eastern Canadian Union Conference Corporation of the Seventh-Day Adventists-Mr. Smith-further considered.
Mr. SMITH:: This Bill passed the House of Commons some days ago and was sent to the Senate, and then to their Private Bills Committee. A few amendments were suggested and adopted, and now the Bill has come back to this House. All the amendments were agreed to by those interested in the Bill.
Amendments concurred in.



SECOND READING.

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Bill No. 100, to incorporate the Manitoba-Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. J. E. Armstrong.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. BOIVIN:: 1.	Has the Provincial Act, passed by the Legislature of British Columbia obliging Joint Stock Companies operating under letters patent granted by the Federal Government to register in British Columbia and pay a license fee to the Government of that province in order to do business there, been declared ultra vires by a judgment of the Privy Council?
2.	If so, have the fees illegally collected by the Government of British Columbia been refunded to the companies who obeyed the provisions of the said Act?
3.	If not, is it the intention of the Government to use its good offices to induce the Provincial Government of British Columbia to refund the moneys so collected, and thus save to the Joint Stock Companies interested the trouble and costs of litigation in connection with the matter?
1.	This depends upon the interpretation of the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in the case of the John Deere Plow Company vs. Wharton, 1915 Appeal Cases, 230. Their lordships held in terms that those provisions of the Companies Act of British Columbia which were relied on in that case as compelling the appellant company to obtain a provincial license of the kind about which the controversy had arisen, or to be registered in the province, as a condition of exercising
its powers or of suing in the courts, are inoperative for these purposes.
2.	The Government has no information.
3.	If it be determined that the provincial Government is liable to refund these moneys it would presumably discharge its liability. There does not appear to be any case at present for the exercise of good offices.


AMHERST, SYDNEY, AND NEW GLASGOW POSTAL REVENUE.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: What was the postal revenue in the towns of Amherst, Sydney and New Glasgow for the year ending December 31, 1915?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Gross postal revenue- Amherst, $36,088.43; New Glasgow, $27,294.87; Sydney, $39,773.81.


JOLIETTE POST OFFICE.
Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	What has been the total cost of the improvements made in the Joliette post office?
2.	Was the work done by contract?
>3. Who were the tenderers, and what was the figure of each tender?
4.	To whom was the contract awarded, and for what sum?
5.	Were any changes made in the original contract, and were any extras paid for such changes? If so, what were the amounts of such extras and to whom were they paid?
6.	Were the wages paid to the workmen by the contractor according to the scale of salaries established by law?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	$36,959.75 paid to date.
2.	Yes.
3.	Jos. Archambault & Co., $29,945. Jos. Lalonde and C. B. Lafleur Fils, Ltd., $32,150. A. Durand, $38,777. D. A. Dostaler, $49,167.
4.	Jos. Archambault & Co., $29,945.
5.	Several changes were made in the contract and executed by the contractors, Messrs. Jos. Archambault & Co., as follows:
Changes to tower	$2,625'
Steel beams and columns on first floor.	296
Repairs to top part of front wall, filling in around windows, alterations	in
janitor's quarters and basement.-.	...	537
Removal of stone fence	 12
New doorway in cellar	 15
Alterations to heating apparatus..	..	ISO
Ladders to clock tower	 4
Door and frame, stairs to caretaker's
quarters	 18
Alterations to radiation on first floor and the graining of woodwork around
main door and stairs	 40
Additional electric lights, etc	 16
Total	$3,743

Contract for fittings awarded to the lowest tenderers, Scnell & Co., 4,289 and $185 for additional work.
6.	Yes, so far as the department is aware, as no complaints have been received to the contrary.


GOVERNMENT OFFICES IN JOLIETTE.
Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	How much does the Government pay in rent in the town o<f Joliette for the excise offices, the customs, the Inspector of Weights and Measures, and of the Post Office Inspector?
2.	To whom are such amounts paid, and what is the amount for each particular lease?
3.	For what reason were the excise, customs and inspection of weights and measures offices, which had been in the old post office building at Joliette, transferred to outside buildings, which the Government leased after the post office had been enlarged at great cost?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1 and 2. The Government did pay, up to 1st May, the following for temporary quarters while improvements and additions to building were being made:
For excise offices to J. C. Rivest, $24 per month. For customs offices to J. M. and J. A. Chaput,' $50 per month. For post office inspectors offices to Amanda Dauphin, $22 per month; this lease will be extended temporarily as to the space alloted to the post office inspector is required by the Department of Customs. The Weights and Measures occupy premises rented from
J.	A. Preville estate on a lease from 22nd January, 1913, to 22nd January, 1914, at a rental of $264 per annum.
3.	The building is not yet completed, but was sufficiently far advanced before the 1st of May to move from temporary quarters into the public building.


CARLSLAKE HOTEL PROPERTY.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What was the total award by the Exchequer Court for the Carslake Hotel property in Montreal?
2.	What amount has been paid?
3.	What were the dates of payment and the amounts on each date?
4.	(a) Has any amount been paid since the case was appealed to the Supreme Court, and (b) is that appeal still pending?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	$288,250 with interest on $68,750 from 15th October, 1914, and interest on $45,000 from 15th October to 3rd December, 1914.
2.	$22,000.
3.	15th August, 1914, $175,000; 21st November, 1914, $45,000; total, $220,OOO.
4.	(a) No; (b) yes.


SALE OF LEE-ENFIELD RIFLES.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1.	How many Lee-Enfield rifles have been sold by the Government since October 1, 1911?
2.	To whom were they sold?
3.	What price was received for the rifles sold?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	A number of rifles was sold to the Government of New Zealand between the 20th August and the 22nd of December, 1913, and a few to the Dominion Police.
2.	They were sold, as. I have said, to the Government of New Zealand the Commissioner of Dominion Police.
3.	The total amount realized was $15,150.


DYSRAELI GOVERNMENT WHARF.
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	Were any repairs made to the Government wharf at D'Israeli, Quebec, in the year 1915?
2.	If so, was the work done by contract or day labour ?
3.	If by contract, who was the contractor, and how much money did he receive for the work?
4.	If by day labour, who was the overseer, how many days was he employed, and what wage per day did he receive?
5.	How much lumber was used, from whom was it purchased and at what price per thousand feet?
6.	What was the total amount expended on said wharf during the year 1915?
7.	Were any tenders invited for said repairs?
8.	What are the names of the different tenderers and the amount of each tender?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Day labour.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Joseph Lemieux, 38J days at $3 per day, 17tfi June-31st July, 1915.
5.	J. H. Parent, D'Isra'eli. 13,435 feet plank, 10 x 12, at $18, $241.82; 28,721 feet, 12 x 12, at $19, $545.69; 5,031 feet, 12 x 12, at $23, $115.70; total, $903.21.
6.	$2,174.41.
7 and 8. Answered by No. 2.


BROMPTONVILLE MAIL SERVICE.
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	Who is the mail carrier on the rural mail route known as Bromptonville No. 2?
2.	What salary does he receive?
3.	When was the contract awarded?
4.	Were tenders called for?? If so, who were the different tenderers and the amount of their respective tenders?
5.	Was the present carrier's first tender the lowest one received, or was it subsequently reduced ?
6.	Has any change been made in the said route since the contract was awarded?
7.	If so, has the contract price been increased owing to said, change?
8.	Why was not the contract given to the lowest original tenderer?

9.	Who recommended that the present carrier he allowed to present a second and lower tender?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Gedeon Hains.
2.	$695.
3.	April 7, 1915.
4.	Yes. Honord Liberge Bromptonville, $700; Oscar Bachand, Bromptonville, $750; Gedeon Hains, Bromptonville, $790; Gedeon Boisvert, Cote St. Joseph, $1,000; David Richards, Sherbrooke No. 3 $1,100.
5.	Gedeon Hains' offer was the lowest received.
6 and 7. On the 25th November a rearrangement, involving an additional travel of three miles per trip was effected, the contractor being paid on a pro rata basis for the extra work, as provided in the contract.
8 and 9. After Gedeon Hains had sent in his tender, he offered, through Dr. John Hayes, to perform the contract for $695 per annum, which offer was accepted.


UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.
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Mr. Turgeon.-For a copy of all correspondence, letters and telegrams relating to the dismissal of Augustin D. I.anteigne as postmaster of Island River, Gloucester county, N.B.

[Stage Direction]
Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I avail myself of the opportunity afforded by this motion to make a statement respecting the proposed loans of $8,000,000 to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, and $15,000,000 to the Canadian Northern Railway, which are contained in the Supplementary Estimates recently presented to the House, and also respecting the policy of the Government regarding the general railway situation of Canada. The loans in question are, in the view of the Government, necessitated from considerations of public interest by Teason of the critical position of the financial affairs of these two companies. The House will recall that two years ago legislation was passed by Parliament under which, hy a. guarantee of securities, aid was afforded to the two companies for the purpose of the completion of their enterprises. It was the view at that time that the proceeds of the securities so guaranteed, amounting to $45,000,000 in the case of the Canadian Northern and $16,000,000 in the case of the Grand Trunk Pacific would be sufficient for the purposes which were had
in view. Within .a few weeks after the legislation had been passed, and almost immediately after the completion and execution of the two trust deeds securing the issues of securities to which I have referred, war broke out. The immediate effect of the war, and its indirect result upon business and finance, was to close the London market, -and indeed the markets of the world, to the issue of further securities except those of governments for the purpose of the prosecution o*f the war. In order that the intention of Parliament, as evidenced by the legislation to which I have referred, might be carried out, and the work upon these two Transcontinental railway systems continued, the Dominion Government made loans in Dominion notes upon a portion of Ithe guaranteed securities. The amount advanced to the Canadian Northern Railway Company was $10,000,000, and the amount advanced to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company was $6,000,000. In the case of the Canadian Northern loan of $10,000,000 security was taken to the amount of $12,500,000 of its guaranteed securities, and in the case of the Grand Trunk Pacific, railway security was taken to the amount of $7,500,000 of its guaranteed securities. These loans were made and the transactions in question were subsequently ratified by Parliament. It was felt at the time that it was in the national interest that these two undertakings upon which so much public money had been expended, should be pushed to completion.
I may say that when war broke out it was the expectation of many that a few months would witness its termination, and it was hoped that the dislocation of business, and the derangement of world finance which ensued upon its outbreak, would consequently be of only temporary duration. These hopes and expectations havp been disappointed, the war having increased in magnitude and intensity since its outbreak with no prospect, so far as one can see at the present time, of its early conclusion; indeed, all the indications seem to point rather to an indefinite prolongation of the great struggle in which we are engaged.
The war has affected the two great railway companies in question in two ways; in the first place they were both obliged to dispose of their securities, including the guaranteed securities which I have mentioned, at	a lower price	than
they would have been able to realize had the war not broken put. There has been a material shrinkage in the case of guaranteed securities. It will
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be recalled by the House that, in addition to the $45,000,000 of guaranteed securities, the Canadian Northern Railway Company had some $55,000,000 of further securities, which were to be marketed and the proceeds devoted to the completion of its enterprise. As market conditions have been, the Canadian Northern Railway Company has not been able to realize within $10,500,000 of the amount which it expected to realize under the prices which prevailed prior to the outbreak of the war. The first year of the war, by reason of the interruption to general business, saw a great falling off in the earnings of all the railway systems of Canada. In the case of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the premier railway system of the Dominion, there was a drop in gross earnings from $130,000,000 to $99,000,000, a reduction of about 25 per cent. In the case of the net earnings of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, there was a drop of about the same percentage, from $42,000,000 to $33,000,000. On account of the abundant crop, particularly in the West, railway earnings during the past year have been considerably improved, but in this connection it is to be borne in mind that we had, particularly in the Western part of Canada, a winter1, of unusual severity, and the operating expenses of all railways have in consequence been .greatly increased over the ordinary. As a result of these conditions the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company have been unable to market their securities at the prices Which they expected to realize at the time the legislation guaranteeing the issue of $45,000,000 and $16,000,000 respectively was passed. There was also* as I stated, a reduction in earnings for the first year after the outbreak of the war over what they might have hoped to obtain had peace conditions prevailed. In addition, by reason of the difficulties of finance brought about by the war, there was delay in completion of the work which the two railway companies had in view. In the case of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, the through service was linked up only last December, a delay of nearly a year over the period which that company had in view previous to the outbreak of the war.
In these conditions the affairs of these two railway companies, which have been so largely aided by the public credit, have given the Government considerable anxiety for many months past. With improving

financial conditions and with better earnings in prospect, .it was hoped that no material assistance would be required in addition to the aid which was given in 1914; but it is now clear, from the statements presented by the railway companies in question, which statements I have laid upon the table of the House, from the financial conditions which still prevail, and from the fact that the war is still raging, that relief is absolutely necessary if these two railway companies are to continue as solvent going concerns. It has been the policy of the Government since the outbreak of the war to maintain stability and to promote confidence in the financial and economic situation of Canada. We have, therefore, as I have stated, looked with growing concern upon the financial position of these two great transcontinental enterprises whose affairs have become so intimately connected with the public credit both of the Dominion and of the provinces of Canada. Securities to the amount of several hundred millions of dollars have been issued by both these companies and have found their way into the hands of investors in Great Britain, the United States, and Europe. Any financial crisis in their affairs could not but react seriously upon the general credit of the Dominion in the eyes of the outside world.
Without further elaborating these points, which are, I think, sufficiently within the knowledge of the House, I desire to refer briefly to the present financial position of these two railway companies. The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company is now completed from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. That company has issued securities guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada to the amount, in round figures, of $78,000,000. Jn addition, loans have been made by the Dominion Government, under this and the preceding Administration, to an amount of $25,000,000, making a total of Dominion guarantees and Dominion loans of an amount exceeding $100,000,000. In addition, the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta have given their guarantees in connection with the Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Company, which is a subsidiary of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, to the amount of $13,000,000; so that, in round figures, the position, so far as the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company is concerned, is that it has outstanding securities guaranteed by the Dominion Government to the extent of $78,000,000; it has obtained loans from the Dominion Government to the amount of $25,000,000, and the Grand Trunk

Pacific Branch Lines Company has issued securities to the amount of $13,000,000, guaranteed by the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Therefore in connection with the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, the public credit of the Dominion and of the two provinces in question is involved to the extent of no less a sum than $115,000,000. In addition to the guarantees which have been given by the Dominion Government and by the Provincial Governments of 'Saskatchewan and Alberta upon the securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company and its subsidiary companies, the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada has guaranteed additional securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company to a total amount of $97,000,000.
The House is, no doubt, aware that it has been by the conjunction of the credit of the Dominion Government and the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company has been enabled to pursue its enterprise to completion. In addition to the $97,000,000 to which I have already referred as guaranteed by the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada, that company has made advances to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, to the Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Company and to the Grand Trunk Pacific Development Company, the latter being also a subsidiary company of the Grand Trunk Pacific, an amount exceeding $25,000,000, for which it holds the notes of the companies in question, and a comparatively small amount, I think $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 of the securities of the Grand Trunk Branch Lines Company which, as I stated, are guaranteed by the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. The Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada is, of course, a powerful corporation. But in common with all other companies, it has experienced and is still experiencing the adverse financial conditions produced by the war. It finds itself now, from considerations affecting its credit, unable to extend further aid to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company whose securities it has guaranteed to the amount I have stated and to which and its subsidiary companies it has made these advances exceeding $25,000,000. This is all the more the case because of the virtual closing of the London market to all new issues. In addition, the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada finds itself confronted with the necessity of providing for
betterments, improvements and terminal facilities involving the expenditure of large sums of money, upon its own system throughout Canada. I have stated that from considerations affecting its credit the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada finds itself unable to extend further aid to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company or its subsidiaries; and in that connection I desire to read extracts from the letters of Mr. Alfred W. Smithers, chairman of the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada, which are published in the financial statements relating to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company which I laid upon the Table, and copies of which have been distributed to members of the House. Mr. Smithers says:	[DOT]
Under present circumstances it is quite impossible for the Grand Trunk Railway Company to meet the extra liabilities arising from the Grand Trunk Pacific railway.
And further:
We have done our utmost to meet the heavy financing which has been necessary, and the difficulty of which has been immensely increased by the disastrous war conditions. We are now " at the end of our tether " with regard to Grand Trunk Pacific financing.
The first Grand Trunk Pacific payments for interest after the 1st January next will become due on the 1st March, and amount to just under $1,000,000, and there is no prospect of our being able to meet that payment.
And he goes on to say:
The railway situation in Canada is a serious one, and any default on the part of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company might lead to grave consequences as to the general financial position in Canada. The Board believe this danger will pass away if the Government accept their proposal, thus saving the general situation, and enabling the Grand Trunk Railway Company, as I have already explained, to fulfil its duty to the public.
From the figures I have given and the statements I have made it will be seen that the credit and standing of the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada are vitally bound up with the condition confronting the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company. The Grand Trunk Pacific railway is now out of the construction stage. I desire to say a word concerning its financial position. Its fixed charges for the present year amount to $7,200,000, representing, of course, the interest upon its securities. To this must be added a deficit on operating account and for maintenance and exceptional repairs of $2,000,000, making a total exceeding $9,000,000 of a deficit expected upon the operations of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company for
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the coming year. In addition, I should state to the House that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada are in arrears of interest payments to the Dominion Government upon the loan of $25,000,000 made to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company hy the Government. The amount of such arrears on the 1st of April last was $1,350,000. I have laid upon the table of the House a statement, signed t>v the VicePresident and Treasurer of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, showing the details of the totals which I have mentioned. In a word, the position is this: Expected deficit upon operation and fixed charges for the coming year, $9,000,000; arrears of interest 'to the Dominion Government, $1,350,000.
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: Do these arrears take you to the end of the current year?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: There are actual arrears of $1,350,000. I should point out here that, under the agreement of 1903 between the Dominion Government and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, the Dominion Government will be called upon this year to pay, without recourse, interest upon the bonds of the Mountain Division. The House will recollect that, under that agreement, for a period of seven years the Dominion Government is obligated without recourse to pay interest on the bonds .ssued in respect of the mountain section of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. For the interest changes of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company the Dominion Government is responsible under its guarantees to the amount of $2,400,000 <per annum. The interest charges for which the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada are responsible amount to about $4.000 000.
From the statement which I have made, it will be apparent that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company is not only earning no portion of its fixed charges but that there is a large deficit on operating ac-v count.


Mr. GRAHAM:: If in keeping with his argument, would my hon. friend divide the mountain and prairie sections in regard to operating expenses. In other words, does the prairie section pay its way, and is the deficit altogether on the mountain section?


William Thomas White: I think neither
section pays its way. I have not the exact

figures before me, 'but I can give them to my hon. friend when we are in the committee.


William Pugsley: The statement shows
the net earnings of the prairie division to be $600,000.


William Thomas White: I have not before me the operating expenses, and I am unable to s.ay whether the earnings are sufficient to take care of the operating expenses and any portion of the fixed charges.


William Pugsley: These are the net earnings after providing for operating expenses.


William Thomas White: Then the position would be that the prairie section would earn $600,000 in excess of its operating expenses and would not be able to pay, except to the extent of $600,000, its fixed charges. But, as I have stated, taking the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company in respect of that portion of the line from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert, not only is it earning no portion of its fixed charges, but there is a large deficit on operating account. The. amount which would have to be provided in respect of such deficit, fixed charges and repairs, will aggregate, as I have stated, $9;000,000 per annum. In considering the future of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company it must be borne in mind that in addition to the deficit upon operating account and the amount which must be provided for fixed 3 p.m. charges, there must be taken into consideration improvements, betterments and rolling stock which will be required for the carrying on of the enterprise. Those, I am advised by the Railway Department, would amount to three, four, possibly five million dollars, after a year or two.
I come now to the position of the Canadian Northern Railway Company. For the fiscal year ending June 30, 1915, the net earnings amounted to $6,000,000. For the present fiscal year, which ends June 30, 1916, the estimate is 'about $9,000,000. That estimate is based upon actual earnings and expenditure to the end of March, which is the latest date at which the figures are available. I pointed out to the House that the Canadian Northern Railway Company have failed to realise within $10,500,000 of the amount which they expected to realise upon the guaranteed and other securities which they had in 1914, when legislation was passed by Parliament granting the guarantee of $45,000,000. The fixed

charges upon the Canadian Northern Railway system aggregate about $15,000,000, in round figures. When I say the Canadian Northern Railway system, I am including the constituent and subsidiary companies. For the past two years, since the passing of the legislation in question, the net earnings of the Canadian Northern system have been applied to two purposes, namely, the payment of interest upon securities-that is to say, fixed charges-and payments on construction account. That is to say, they have been applied to the extent that they were available, because the fixed charges and the shortage upon construction account have exceeded the amount of net earnings which they had available to apply. I would call the attention of the House to the fact that under the legislation by which a guarantee of $35,000,000 was given in 1911 upon the securities of the Canadian Northern Ontario, and by the legislation under which a guarantee was given in 1914 upon $45,000,000 of securities of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, provision was made that the railway company might call upon the Dominion Government for a period of three years to pay the interest upon the securities and to add the amount so paid to the mortgage indebtedness. That legislation will be called into effect this year. So that from the end of the present fiscal year, that is to say, from July 1, forward, the Canadian Northern Railway Company will call upon the Dominion Government, and also upon the Government of the province of British Columbia-because there is similar legislation affecting the guarantee given by the province of British Columbia-to provide the sum of about $4,500,000 towards the payment of interest upon guaranteed securities, that is to say, the $35,000,000 of guaranteed securities, the $45,000,000 of guaranteed securities, and the securities guaranteed by the proviiice of British Columbia under legislation of that province. Therefore, for the next fiscal year the fixed charges of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, in so far as they have a bearing upon the financing of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, will be reduced to about $11,000,000. The Canadian Northern Railway Company has a total outstanding funded debt of $383,000,000. Of this amount the Dominion Government has guaranteed $104,000,000 of securities.


George Perry Graham: That is on the entire
system?
225*


William Thomas White: The total Dominion guarantees in respect of the Canadian Northern Railway system aggregate $104,000,000.


George Perry Graham: I mean the outstanding indebtedness; that is for the whole system?


William Thomas White: For the whole
system. There has in addition been guaranteed by the provinces of Canada no less an amount than $107,000,000 of securities of the Canadian Northern Railway Company. Of this amount Ontario has guaranteed $8,000,000, Manitoba has guaranteed $25,500,000, Saskatchewan has guaranteed $15,000,000, Alberta has guaranteed $19,000,000, and British Columbia has guaranteed $40,000,000, making a total, as I have said, in round figures, of $107,000,000 of the securities of the Canadian Northern Railway system guaranteed by the provinces of Canada. Taking the two together, the Dominion and the provinces, the total guarantees aggregate $211,000,000. So that, Mr. Speaker, the position is that the public credit of the Dominion and of the provinces is now involved to the extent of $211,000,000 with the enterprise of the Canadian Northern Railway Company. In addition to the guaranteed securities which I have mentioned and which aggregate $211,000,000, unguaranteed securities are outstanding amounting to $147,000,000. In addition, there is income convertible debenture stock amounting to $25,000,000, making the total which I mentioned first, $383,000,000, as the total outstanding funded debt of the Canadian Northern Railway system. To this mujst be added the principal of equipment securities which have been issued, instalments of which mature from time to time. The total principal so outstanding amounts to $17,000,000. Although the securities which are pledged against them are contained in the total of outstanding securities which I have mentioned, there are temporary loans and obligations current amounting to $92,000,000. I have laid on the Table of the House a statement certified by the auditors of the company, Messrs. Webb, Read, Hegan, Oallingham and Company, showing the details of the temporary loans and current obligations aggregating $92,000,000 as I have stated.
I may say to the House that the reason why there are so many temporary loans and current obligations is that since the outbreak of the war it has not been possible, at least until very recently, to sell long date securities, and the financing

[DOT]which has had to he pursued by railway and other companies has consisted in pledging securities and issuing against them short date notes of one or two years' maturity. The Canadian Northern Kailway [DOT]Company officials assume that they will be [DOT]able to renew the short date loans appearing in the statement, or to procure new loans to take their places; but if they do not receive assistance in respect of their current obligations they will not be able to carry through the year.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD:: Would the
minister explain item 2, on page 8, Dominion Government loan Canadian Northern railway 4 per cent debenture stock (Dominion guarantee).


William Thomas White: In the fall of 1914, when the markets of the world were closed, the Dominion Government made two loans in Dominion notes, one of $10,000,000 to the Canadian Northern Railway Company, and one of $6,000,000 to the Grand Trunk Pacific Company, upon the security respectively of $12,500,000 Canadian Northern securities, guaranteed by the Dominion Government, and $7,500,000 securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, guaranteed by the Dominion Government.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What legislation?


William Thomas White: There was no existing legislation, but at the next session of Parliament the transactions were ratified. The estimate is that the minimum assistance upon which the Canadian Northern Railway Company will be able to make arrangements to finance during the coming year is $15,000,000.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Would the minister please state just what that $15,000,000 will be used for?


William Thomas White: If my hon. friend does not mind, I shall take that matter up when we are in committee. The general statement as to the purposes for wihich the $15,000,000 is to be used is this: For expenditures made or indebtedness incurred to meet interest payments maturing due upon securities in priority to the securities of $45,000,000 guaranteed by the Dominion Government under the legislation of 1914; to meet instalments of equipment bonds and on construction account. The minimum assistance with which they estimate they can continue to finance during the year is $15,000,000.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT:: The minister said it would take $15,000,000 to pay the interest charges, that is $4,500,000 on the $45,000,000 and the $35,000,000. That would leave about $11,000,000. What does he estimate the net earnings of the system at June 30, 1916?


William Thomas White: In the neighbourhood of $11,000,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then there would be no deficit.


William Thomas White: That is the estimate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then why do you want $15,000,000 with these facts?


William Thomas White: My hon. friend will observe from the statements of temporary loans and obligations that the Canadian Northern Railway is indebted for advances and upon loans which it has negotiated, to the extent of $92,000,000, of which I think some $16,000,000 or $18,000,000 is in respect of interest which has been met upon securities which have priority over the $45,000,000 of securities guaranteed by the Dominion Government, of instalments of principal of equipment securities and on construction account. The $15,000,000 is required if the Canadian Northern Railway is to continue as a solvent concern. It is the minimum amount with which it can continue to finance.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How is it made up?


William Thomas White: In committee I
shall be glad to give the details. I have not them before me at the moment.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It would be
better to give it now, so that we will understand it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is very vital.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is on page 9
of the statement.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, but that does not cover what he is speaking about now.


William Thomas White: In committee I
shall be glad to give the details. Page 9 gives the statement showing the advances which have been made for payment of underlying interest on principal on construction account and for the meeting of principal and instalment obligations.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Do you propose to take care of the income securities, $25,000,000?


William Thomas White: No, they do not enter at all.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You would not call that part of the funded debt, by any stretch of the imagination.


William Thomas White: No. I would not say " by any stretch of the imagination"; but to show that I am in agreement with my hon. friend, I showed the different securities and then mentioned income convertible debenture stock, but the interest on which is not payable except under certain conditions. The interest which it is pTopqsed to pay from this $15,000,000 relates only to that portion of the interest indebtedness of the company which is payable upon securities ranking in priority to the $45,000,000 'Canadian Northern mortgage guaranteed by the Dominion Government. In other words, the Dominion Government has a $45,000,000 mortgage upon the enterprise. If the interest upon the underlying securities was not paid, of course the Dominion Government would lose the security it has in the $45,000,000 mortgage. If the Dominion Government entered into possession under the $45,000,000 mortgage, it would have to do what any mortgagee would be obliged to do in order to protect his security, if he so desired, that is to pay the interest on the underlying securities which come in priority to it. There is provision in the trust mortgage "which was executed under the legislation of 1914, which contemplates the payment of interest on underlying securities in order to protect the interest of the Dominion in the guaranteed securities.
I have stated that the minimum amount with which the Canadian Northern Railway Company will be able to carry through, to continue financially for the year, is $15,000,000; and the minimum amount with which we estimate the Grand Trunk Pacific Company will be able to continue a solvent going concern is $8,000,000. Those are the two amounts which appear in the Estimates which will be discussed by the House in Committee.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister explain why $15,000,000 is the minimum at this juncture? This question is very involved, and when the minister comes to that point in his argument which is vital to an understanding of the question, he proposes to defer consideration of that very vital point until later.


William Thomas White: If my hon. friend will look at the financial statement of the temporary loans which have been presented to the House, he will realize at once that the condition cannot continue; and the question arises as to what measure of relief must be afforded in order that the Canadian Northern Railway Company can continue. The advances which have been made temporarily will have to be, in large measure, cleared up before the company can get credit to enable it to continue. These borrowings have been upon securities, which are shown in the statement I have laid on the table of the House, for the purposes which I have mentioned, and the Canadian Northern Railway Company has come to the point where it has no more securities to issue, and, if it does not get this measure of aid, it will not be able to continue. I think that any financial man looking at the statement placed on the Table with reference to the Canadian Northern Railway will see that at least a sum of $15,000,000 will be needed to finance the company and to enable it to carry on its business as a going concern during the coming year.


William Pugsley: In looking over the statement I find what strikes me as a singular omission. There is no statement of the earnings or operating expenses of the Canadian Northern Railway Company. Does the minister not think that that is an important matter to be presented to the House?


William Thomas White: I have stated to my hon. friend that the earnings and operating expenses for the fiscal year cannot be presented at the present time except by way of estimate.
Mr. PUGSLEY. There is no estimate even.


William Thomas White: I could get an estimate under the signature of the general manager of the company, but I should not think it advisable to lay estimates before the House, unless the House specially desires it.


William Pugsley: Take the last six months.


William Thomas White: What I wish to lay before the House is facts. I have laid the facts, and, I think, all the facts, with regard to the financial condition of the company upon the Table, and if my hon. friend, or any other hon. member of the House, desires an estimate made by the general manager of the Canadian Northern

Railway Company, as to its earnings for the present fiscal year ending June 15, 1916, which I have stated to be $9,000,000, I can obtain it; I can obtain an estimate, according to their best judgment, <as to what would be the net earnings for the year 1917, but I need not say that it would be only an estimate.


William Pugsley: I would have thought it of importance and desirable to enable the House to form a judgment as to the advisability of giving aid to have a statement of the earnings and operating expenses for the past year, and also an estimate of the probable earnings and operating expenses for the coming year.


William Thomas White: The last financial statement of the company which was published, and which I can obtain, shows the net earnings for the year ended June 15,
[DOT] 1915. I stated to the House in an earlier part of my speech that the estimated earnings, based upon the actual earnings up to the 31st March of the current year, would be $9,000,000, but I would submit to the House that this is not so much a question of earnings as of finance.


William Pugsley: The minister gave the earnings of the Grand Trunk Pacific, but not' those of the Canadian Northern.


William Thomas White: I beg my hon. friend's pardon; I have given the earnings of the Canadian Northern for the year 1915, and the estimated earnings for 1916, and in addition to that I have stated the fixed charges. I made a most complete statement with regard to that a few moments ago.


William Pugsley: In the statement submitted with respect to the Grand Trunk Pacific there is an estimate of the loss in operation. An estimate is given of the net earnings of the prairie division and an estimate of the loss of the mountain division; but there is no such statement in the pamphlet presented in regard to the Canadian Northern railway.


William Thomas White: If there is not, and my hon. friend desires an estimate, I will endeavour to get it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The earnings are now complete up to the last week of April, and this is the first week in May, so that there would be only 6even weeks' earnings to estimate.


William Thomas White: I am told, in order to give accurate information, that the acfSir Thomas White.]
tual earnings and expenditures are available up to the end of March'. My hon. friend will no doubt realize that it takes some time to get the returns especially from the West.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have them up to the end of April.


William Thomas White: In that event the Dominion Government would take over the mortgaged premises and hold them -as it does the Intercolonial railway. If it continued to hold them and operate them without a receivership or liquidation it would mean that it would have to pay all the interest on all the securities of these companies at present outstanding. It would have to provide the amount of temporary aid which we are now proposing and in addition it would have to provide for the future financing of these roads.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would it have to pay interest on the subsequent securities?


William Thomas White: The Dominion
Government would have to pay interest upon its $45,000,000 and its $16,000,000 of securities because it is hound to do so under its guarantee. If the Dominion Government foreclosed under these two mortgages, and took over the two roads, it would have to pay interest upon the guaranteed securities.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Only on those that were prior to the mortgage.


William Thomas White: Prior to the mortgage, but the issues of $45,000,000 and $16,000,000 are junior securities and we would have to pay on those.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are they subsequent to all the guaranteed securities?


William Thomas White: The $45,000,000
and the $16,000,000. mortgages are junior to the mortgages -securing the issues outstanding on the two systems constituting the greater part of the indebtedness.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Except the income securities.


William Thomas White: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it my hon. friend's opinion that, war or no war, he will have to take over at least one of the two railways?


William Thomas White: I am afraid I am taking up too long a time, but I -regard the subject as one of considerable importance. I will come to that point in a moment or

two. The first business of Canada at the present time is the war; all other businesses, no matter how important they may be, are subsidiary and subordinate. What I am trying to show the House is this, that in the midst of the war, to undertake its burdens and at the same time to undertake the financing of two transcontinental railway systems would be a formidable proposition even for the Dominion Government.
The third alternative, and the one which we now propose to Parliament, is to afford the minimum of temporary assistance which will enable these two systems to continue in operation pending an investigation, which we propose to carry out by the best experts available, into the fiscal, economic and financial conditions of the railway situation as it exists in Canada to-day. It is perfectly clear that it is not possible, nor in the national interest, that we should go on, as has been the case for many years past under this and the preceding Government, making loans or giving guarantees at short intervals for the purpose of assisting these two large enterprises. A continuing condition such as this would be intolerable, and the time has arrived when, in our judgment, it has become imperatively necessary that a permanent solution should be found for the existing railway situation. No doubt that situation has been aggravated by the war, but it is none the less necessary that some permanent policy should be adopted. We cannot adopt a permanent policy until we know all the facts and have been advised by those most capabie of giving advice as to what is really involved in the problem which confronts us and what the future of the existing systems is likely to be. We cannot adopt such a policy until we know what, if any, rearrangement, redistribution or linking up of existing lines or systems, may be necessary in order to get the best economic result from the enormous expenditures which have been made upon Canada's railway systems. It is possible, and even probable, that the permanent solution of this great question may involve the Dominion taking over one or more of the existing systems, or there may be involved the larger issue of nationalization of all the railways of Canada. The whole question is so vast in its complexity and manifold in its bearings that nothing but a thorough mastery of the problems involved, upon the best information and advice obtainable, can lead to its proper solution. Nevertheless, for reasons which
I have given, this problem must now be faced, and the present measure of aid is designed as a temporary expedient to meet the situation as it is until such time as the whole problem can he fully studied and solved.
The House will observe that the loans which we propose, of $15,000,000 and $8,000,000 respectively, are repayable upon demand, so that, in a sense, we have a control of the situation through those demand loans. We are charging a rate of interest of six per cent, the Dominion Government being able to borrow at slightly less than that figure. We realize that the security upon which we are making these loans to both of the railway systems in question is rather slender, and therefore we have a vital interest in the administration of the affairs of these two railways. It is our intention, in order that we may be kept fully informed, pending our investigation by experts, which I have announced, as to the condition and administration of these companies, to appoint three directors of the Canadian Northern Railway Company and three directors of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will they be railway men?


William Thomas White: They will he men of high .standing. I am not in a jfosition yet to give their names, but they will be men who can be depended upon to watch the interest of the Government in connection with the administration of these railways. The reason why we propose this is, as I have stated, that we are making these loans upon tenuous security. It is, therefore, in our view, important that we should be completely informed through our own representatives upon the two boards of directors' as to the condition and administration of these railways from time to time until the report has been made by the experts whom we shall engage to make an investigation into the whole Canadian railway 'Situation for the purpose which I have mentioned.
We propose also to provide for a continuous audit of the revenues and expenditures of these two railway systems. We have provided items in the Estimates for the purpo.se of defraying the expenses of the board of investigation which I have mentioned, and also of the continuous audit. As a result of the appointment of such auditors and our directors upon the boards of the two Tailway companies, we

expect to be kept thoroughly informed as to their administration and condition.
I have shown the present condition of the companies. I have pointed out that there are three alternatives, and three only namely, liquidation, taking over by the Government of the systems in question, or the affording of temporary assistance pending a solution of the larger question. The first alternative would, as I have stated, be at this juncture a most serious calamity and a great blow to the public credit and standing of the Dominion abroad. The second would add exceedingly heavy burdens to the increasing financial burden of the war, and would, I believe, seriously embarrass us in providing for its further financing on the increased scale to which we are looking forward. The third alternative, and the one which we propose, maintains the situation as it is at present and gives us time to investigate the whole problem with a view to such action at the next session of Parliament as may, it is to be hoped, solve in a permanent fashion Canada's railway difficulties. It seems to us that the latter course is unquestionably the course of wisdom, and I earnestly hope that the proposals of the Government looking to this end will meet the approval and endorsation of the House and of the country.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (South Renfrew):	Mr. 'Speaker, I do not propose
to deal with this proposition in any detail, because I have not had time to look at the figures, having only received them to-day. I would suggest to the Minister of Finance that we might go into committee, and then take up some other business in order to give us an opportunity at least until tomorrow of looking into the matter. As I received a copy of the Canadian Northern report only about twenty minutes ago, I have not had time to read it over.
The difficulty that confronts the members and the House is this: How long, O Lord, how long? It does not need any arguments or figures to convince the members of this House that they want to do what is right for the Dominion of Canada, they want to do that which will have no bad effects on our financial position. But that is the argument that has been used for years and years. When we are discussing these things we are met with the suggestion that if this aid is not given something terrible is going to happen to the country. It is really em-

barrassing to know just what is the best thing to do,-we have done it so often. On several occasions we have been assured that this is the last time of asking; and the aid has gone through; and the very next morning after the Governor General has signed the measure, movements have begun for requests for another grant or some additional aid. Another difficulty that strikes me just now after hearing the Minister of Finance is this-that we are not absolutely sure on what ground this aid is needed. In the first place we have not all the figures about the Canadian Northern revenue and expenditure, and cost of operation. And, secondly, it looks as if one of the great incentives to the granting of aid to the Grand Trunk Pacific is that the Grand Trunk does not want to do it. These things just struck me casually. Is it p'ossible that if this Parliament did not give aid the Grand Trunk would still decline to give it? I know that the shareholders' of the Grand Trunk have been objecting for two or three years to giving further aid to the Grand Trunk Pacific. But so have the people of Canada been objecting to giving further aid to anybody. Is it outside the range of possibility that if we did not give it the Grand Trunk would have to give it?
I want a little time to look into these matters before I come to a decision. It is true that speaking generally seventy-five per cent of the railways of America have been in liquidation at one time or another -perhaps the percentage is greater than that. But what we have to do is to make sure that the interests of the people for whom these railways are constructed shall be protected. I am not sure that the interests of the people of the United States have not been as fully protected by having the railways go into liquidation, as they would have been otherwise. Of course, they have not aided railways, as a government, so much as we have. The statement appears in a British Columbia newspaper, and I would like to ask the Minister of Finance about it, that legislation here will have the effect of relieving the British Columbia Government of its obligation to the Canadian Government. I cannot think there is any foundation for that, but it is stated in the report of a deliverance of a public man in British Columbia. Of course, if we are to assume the liabilities of the provinces and other creditors, let us take over the railways at once. It is true, as the minister has stated,

that the war conditions have made it difficult to raise money. It is also true that the low rate of interest at which some of these securities were issued has made it impossible, no doubt, to realize nearly as much upon them as would have been realized had not the rate of interest risen, due to war conditions.
Let me go back to my original question: How long is it to continue, if Parliament grants this aid? The Minister of Finance tells us that there are three things that face us. As he states them they amount to this-liquidation, nationalization, and procrastination. Now, there may be things that have greater terrors than liquidation of a railway company under present conditions. Possibly it would not be a terrible calamity if nationalization took place-for what is proposed is only an expedient, a temporary arrangement, even at the best; the situation has to be faced, and faced before very long. Should we temporize, should we keep on putting off and putting off?-particularly, when it is such an expensive pastime? The minister says, and says with a good deal of force, that it would be a bad time to assume all the liabilities that these two railway companies have upon them. But would it? Are we not assuming them now? Are we not in the position, as a Parliament, of assuming the liabilities of these two companies to a very large extent?-and having nothing to show for our liability at that. If we were to go further, although we should, perhaps, assume a heavier liability, still, we should have some property to show for our liability, we should have the railway property at least to the extent of the liability, if it were worth the money. As we go on now, we are handing out money year after year, and have nothing to show for it except forty-five per cent of the Canadian Northern stock-


An hon. MEMBER:: Forty per cent.


George Perry Graham: Forty per cent of the
Canadian Northern stock, which, I imagine, would not make anybody rich on the stock exchange at the present time.
Now, coming to the Grand Trunk Pacific. I think I told the Minister of Finance once in a quiet way that a certain report issued must have the effect of making it difficult for the Grand Trunk to obtain money; and, from the day the 'Staunton-Gutelius report was issued by this Government, the company began to have difficulty in securing money. I pointed out that that would be the only serious result of the report. For
whether such statements be true or not, capital is very sensitive and shies at the least provocation, and sometimes without any provocation.
Now, perhaps I should not say what I am about to say, but I think I am justified in saying it from the position I have taken with the Grand Trunk people. They will understand that I am not saying anything hew. That company will never make a success of its lines in Canada if it continues to operate them at long range. We in Canada are moving along so rapidly, as a new country, that the situation of yesterday is not the same as that of to-day and the situation of to-day may not be that of tomorrow. If any concern, a transportation company particularly, wishes to grapple with situations as they arise, it must have its directing forces on the ground. It is not so in the old land, where, conditions are the Tesult of centuries of work and development. We change in a day-in a few hours; what is a good policy now may not be a good policy to-morrow. The Canadian Pacific Railway has its board in Canada and can control its affairs. It can meet at 10 a.m., decide on a policy, and at 11 a.m. put it into force; in fact, it often puts the policy into force and meets afterwards. But as' to the Grand Trunk and Grand Trunk Pacific, while in a measure it manages its affairs in Canada, the fact is that no departure of any importance can take place, no real advancement can be made, without first submitting it to the board in London.
By the time that is received by that board and is studied as it necessarily must be, and reply is made to the Canadian management, the reason for the application has disappeared and the next order of business is at hand. Under these circumstances the application might as well never have been made, because the time has passed for it to be acted upon. While the Grand Trunk people in London are wondering what they are going to do, the Canadian Pacific railway, because it has the power, steps in and takes action. One of the difficulties in connection with the management of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway is that while it is the best main line of road on the American continent, it has not sufficient branch lines to feed it and give it the business that it ought to have. That neglect will be more marked as the years go by, unless it be remedied. I know that the management in Canada did endeavour time after time to make as rapid progress as could be made, but these things all had to be submitted

to the board in London, and by the time that board had made reply the Canadian Pacific railway had its men working on a branch line, and the Grand Trunk Pacific branch lines were not needed; they would be superfluous. I think it is the duty of the Government to tak-e the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Grand Trunk management to one side-I do not mean the Canadian end of the management, I mean Itlhe home end-have a quiet talk with them, and tell them that so long as the control is 4,000 miles away from the railway, so long will its management be inefficient and its financing almost impossible. I discussed this with Mr. Smithers on two or three occasions-and I am not saying anything now that I have not said to him most emphatically. The difficulty with the Grand Trunk Pacific system, as I pointed out to him, is not the matter of management; it is financial. The greatest financial mind obtainable should have been secured years ago by this company, and should have been on the ground in the Dominion of Canada, knowing the conditions, knowing what to recommend, and having power to act quickly on that recommendation. I submilt that, no matter what happens, if the Grand Trunk Pacific is to remain as a company-managed road, the body having control must be removed to Canada, or the road never can be successful.


Mr. MORPHY:: What was the answer
to the hon. gentleman's representations for ' headquarters in Canada?


George Perry Graham: I am expressing only my view; I shall not express the other gentleman's view.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I did not understand
that it was private..


George Perry Graham: It was not private so far as my views was concerned.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is there no answer?


George Perry Graham: There is no answer from me. My private view, expressed here in public, is that no answer has been or can be given that will satisfy the Canadian people other than the removal of the managing force to the Dominion of Canada. A move was made along the line of having the offices of president and general manager combined in one person, with residence in Canada. Mr. Hays did have very wide powers; but on his death those powers were again divided; the financial management was again removed from the Domin-

ion of Canada. That is as far as I care to go in discussing that side of the question.
The Minister has stated to us that the Grand Trunk Pacific is completed from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. Now, is it? Has Mr. Schreiber given his certificate-that the work is all finished on the line from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert? I am simply asking for information, because I had' thought that there was quite a bit of work to do there yet.


William Thomas White: I am informed
that it is completed.


George Perry Graham: 
Richard Bedford Bennett: Or come east from FoTt William.


George Perry Graham: Well, if it had come all the way East and had connected its western .system with the seaboard on the east, or with tide water at Quebec, making arrangements with the Government railway to go to Halifax and St. John, it would have been somewhat behind; but I submit that its greatest difficulty has been in trying to finance the road through and west of the Rocky mountains. This was discussed between the Canadian Northern Railway proprietors and myself on several occasions, and the position I always took with them was this: Ultimately you will have a transcontinental line undoubtedly, because you will want a western outlet as well as an eastern outlet; but for the time being, unltil you get your system in the Prairie Provinces connected with the East, do not go farther west; by the time you have that done, if Canada is going to be what we think, the conditions will enable you to judge of the feasibility of going through to the West. Mark you, that was not with any 'antipathy of their going to the western coast; that was for the purpose of keeping the enterprise on a sound footing as it went along, and I believe that had that been done, to-day the Canadian Northern railway, with at most very small aid, would have been able to finance itself, and we would not have had this continual coming, year after year, and this constant repetition of votes to aid this enterprise. I shall not discuss these matters further now, as I desire to study the figures in detail; and I suggest that if the minister is agreeable we might have an opportunity to look into them. The minister might now go into committee on some other business, taking this up to-morrow or the next day, when we have had an opportunity to look at the figures.


Right Hon.   S@: As my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) desires some further information, and also a further opportunity to examine the documents which have been laid on the table of the House, I have only a few words to say now. This is an important subject, and it is manifestly only fair to postpone the discussion as he requests. There are, however, one or

two things I should like to say before the House goes into committee. One is that thirteen years ago, on the 18th day of next August, I asked the late Government, our predecessors, to make that very stipulation which the hon. gentleman now says should have been made; that is to say, that there should be from Edmonton west to the coast only one line of railway, common to the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern Railway. That would have avoided what might perhaps be regarded as an economic waste, and would have effected a saving of from $75,000,000 to $100,000,000. I made some further suggestions, which I shall be prepared to debate with my hon. friends when the time comes, to indicate to them that the situation which has arisen to-day is one for which they are very largely, if not wholly responsible. Every hon. gentleman in this House knows precisely ' the conditions that confronted us when we came into power in October, 1911 -two great transcontinental railway systems, both having received the imprimatur of the Government as such by statutes of this country, both uncompleted, and both of them impossible of completion unless assistance should be given. It would be proper to leave the consideration of that until my hon. friend has made himself familiar with the details of the present proposals. He asks about the condition of the Canadian Northern Railway line; he inquires who the directors will be and what part they will take. I may tell him that they will be men who will command the confidence of the country, and further than that, I have no doubt that they will take such part in the management of these roads as will be consistent with their duty as representatives of the interests of this ' country in connection with further construction, and with the operation of the two railways.
I pass by my hon. friend's suggestion that the difficulties which confront the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway to-day are due to the fact that an investigation was made by the present Administration, after it came into power, into the construction of the road. That remark could not have been made by my hon. friend in any very serious spirit. As a matter of fact, the Grand Trunk Railway has been carrying on the financing for the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway since its construction was first undertaken in 1904 or 1905. The conditions that confront the Grand Trunk

Pacific Railway to-day have been described by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance. The conditions which confront that road are in no way due to any report that was made or any investigation that was held. As a matter of fact, the Government have sought to co-operate in every possible way with the Grand Trunk in maintaining the stability and the financial credit of the Grand Trunk Pacific enterprise from the day we came into power. It is true that the enterprise was launched under conditions of which the opposition of the day did not approve. It is perfectly true that we then made certain suggestions which were not adopted, and the value of which I -shall be prepared to discuss before this debate is -concluded. It ie equally true that, as the proposals of the Government of that day were ratified by Parliament, as they were afterwards approved by the people of this country, we felt it our duty, when we came into power, to so guide our policies and our conduct as to support that enterprise in exactly the same .way as we would have supported it had we been responsible for it in the first instance. In doing that we were doing no more than was proper and necessary, having regard to the principles of constitutional government which control such conditions. As an example of the extent to which we have gone in endeavouring to support the -enterprise which was launched by my hon. friends opposite when they ware in power, I may say that for the period of nearly four years that the Grand Trunk Pacific has been in operation in the Prairie Provinces, and for the year that it has been in operation through the mountains, it has been maintained, so far as the payment of interest is concerned, upon a construction -basis which permitted interest to be paid out of capital. For that reason, the affairs of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway have not been in the limelight to the same extent as the affairs of the Candian Northern Railway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We lent them the capital to do it.


Robert Laird Borden: The actual fact is that in order to give fullest possible support to the enterprise which was launched by my hon. friends opposite, and to provoke as little public criticism of the results of its operation, as might be possible, nearly $12,000,000 has been paid out of capital during the period in which that road in the prairies and through the mountains has actually been in operation. If we had not

taken that course it would have been necessary, from public assistance or from some other source, to provide nearly $12,000,000 in order that interest might be met on the outstanding securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We lent them the money to do it.


William Pugsley: Was that illegal or in
accordance with the contract?


Robert Laird Borden: We did not take over the road as completed but it remained on a construction, basis. Technically, it might not have been quite complete, as the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) has pointed out, but it was in practical operation, and during the period in which it was in practical operation the interest had to be paid out of capital in order to save a situation for which hon. gentlemen opposite are responsible.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I take it from my right hon. friend's remarks that he considers the eastern section of the Transcontinental as an incubus. Will he tell the House and the country whether it is hie intention to add to that incubus two other lines, namely, the Quebec and Saguenay railway, and the Lotbiniere and Megantic line?


Robert Laird Borden: We will come to the Quebec and Saguenay railway in good time and discuss it with my hon. friend.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it to be added to the Transcontinental?


Robert Laird Borden: We will discuss that road when we come to it. I think that when the proposal is submitted to the House in regard to that road it will be found to be somewhat different from that which my hon. friend seems to imagine; but it will be time enough to discuss it when we come to it.


William Pugsley: Before the Prime Minister passes from the operation of the mountain section, may I ask if the operation was not in accordance with the terms of the contract, being carried on by the contracting or construction- company in the West?


Robert Laird Borden: It has been carried on by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, as I understand, and carried on as if the road were still under construction. While, I think, it might not have been technically complete, according to the report of the Government engineer, nevertheless it was, for all practical purposes of operation, complete, and if we had not extended the time by the authority of Parliament, -as we did from session to session, the situation to which I have alluded, would have had to be met. I am merely pointing this out to indicate that, by reason of a situation created before they came into power, -and for which they w-ere not responsible, this Government were obliged to give support in that w,ay and every other way to these roads in order that the stability of railway conditions in this country might be maintained to the fullest possible extent.
As my -hon. friend the member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) desires to postpone further discussion, we have no objection. We will take up the matter some other day, and resume the discussion when it will be entirely convenient to him. To-morrow, or the next day, or at any time he suggests, we shall -be prepared to take it up again -and go into committee and give all further information that may be desired.


Mr. TURRIFF:: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Finance a question or two for information. What reason 'have we to believe that this statement of Canadian Northern railway affairs is an absolutely correct statement, covering all their liabilities? For my part, I do not believe that the Canadian Northern aTe in a position to state what their liabilities are. I do not believe that they know what their position is. I would suggest that when we take (the matter up again my hon. friend should give us -so-me information as to what amount of money, in addition to the present liabilities of the company will be required to put the company on a commercial basis; that is, to put it where it can carry freight cheaply and perform the duties for which it was organized. For instance, in my part of the country they have a branch line which was practically idle all last winter, and it will take a great deal of expenditure on many of their branch lines to put them in shape -so that they can meet operating expenses and pay interest on their indebtedness. In dealing with the question we should have some such information which would certainly be a very great help to us when we come to consider what ought to be done in connection with the proposals made by the Government. I would also like some information on this point: If we are going to finance this company, what will be the policy of the Gov-

eminent in regard to this company extending their field Still further by purchasing o.r building lines and extending in a manner that makes it impossible for them to concentrate their energies on the part of the country which they now occupy.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: To enable us to understand this question, I think the Minister of Finance ought to give the House some information as to how this amount of $15,000,000 was arrived at, and as to the purposes for which At is to be used. The minister has ashed the House to accept the statement that he made an examination, and that he was satisfied that $15,000,000 was the smallest amount which could be given to enable the Canadian Northern Railway Company to go on. I think that information ought to be given now, so that the House and the country might understand. While I am on my feet, may I be permitted (to point out the singular method which the Government has adopted in presenting this matter for the consideration of Parliament. I think that this is the first occasion on which any Government has come to Parliament asking for such a large sum as $23,000,000 for two railway companies, and submitting it in the Estimates, without making the matter one of special legislation as it should be. There should have been a concrete Bill so that the proposals now submitted to Parliament could be reviewed and dealt with, and the legislation considered and enacted, if it is to be enacted, by the Government in accordance with precedent. There are reasons, I have no doubt, why the Government has gone outside the usual method of presenting legislation, and put these proposals in the Estimates. When my hon. friend the Minister of Finance dilated upon the condition of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, and upon the position of this country at the present time, he simply stated what hon. gentlemen on this side of the House declared two years ago would be the result of the loan of $45,000,000. It was pointed out distinctly and clearly, not only by hon. gentlemen on this side, but by hon. gentlemen supporting the Prime Minister, that when the Government provided that loan of $45,000,000 it put this country in a position of being liable for every dollar of debt that had been incurred by the Canadian Northern Railway Company, both prior and subsequent to the granting of that security. It was urged by the Government then that that was not so, that the situation was such that, in [DOT] 
order to enable the Canadian Northern to break through its financial difficulties, that loan of $45,000,000, even supposing it did leave $65,000,000 of liabilities still to be liquidated, would result in a condition of affairs in which the Government of this country would be relieved from further advances, and the company would be able to go on. To-day it is quite apparent-my hon. friend has told the House-that if the Government undertake to exercise the power contained in the mortgage, the result would be that we would be liable for every cent of this indebtedness, both prior and subsequent, including the floating liabilities. My hon. friend did not take advantage of the safeguard which they allege was of the most vital character at that time when they assured the House and the country that they proposed to appoint certain directors upon the Canadian Northern board. They gave us that assurance then, just as they are asserting to the country to-day, that they propose to provide safeguards for the future by putting a certain number of gentlemen on these railway boards. The statement was made to the House by the Government during the present session, that no director had ever been appointed by the Government to the Canadian Northern board to watch the interests of the country or guard the position of the Government after that loan was made two years ago. Why, therefore, are we to accept the statement of the hon. gentleman as being any vital guarantee that they are going to put three members on this board or that the interests of the country are going to be better protected in the future than they have in the past?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does not my hon. friend think that there is a complete answer to that in the fact that the road was not a completed system, and not open for traffic, until the 30th November last, and, not being a completed system and not open for traffic, the Government could not appoint a director for a portion of the year as the first fiscal year only ended on June 31. 1916.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am speaking particularly of the Canadian Northern propo-istion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am referring to the
Canadian Northern.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The Canadian Northern loan passed this House in the spring of 1914. I perhaps did not catch my hon.

friend's point, but I do not appreciate the suggestion he makes as being any answer to the claim that, immediately after the passage of that legislation the Government should have put its representative on the board in order that the interests of Canada might be protected. The situation in which the Canadian Northern stands to-day, as far as one can gather from hurriedly looking over the statement, is the situation that has existed every moment during the past two years. It does not sieem possible for this Government to initiate any policy in regard to any matter without providing for the appointment of a commission to go out and report, or it may be, never report at all, because some of these commissions aTe allowed to die a natural death. Nobody has ever heard of their reporting if they have ever done so. My hon. friends now propose to appoint the 85th or 86th commission which they have appointed since they came into power to make inquiry as to what should be done in regard to this railway problem. It is like locking the stable door after the horse is stolen, my hon. friends two years ago should have had these commissioners appointed. The Minister of Finance, knowing the position of the Canadian Northern and the burden which the country assumed when it provided for a .loan to them of $45,000,000, should have taken up the question as to whether or not this country would be bound to assume this railway and nationalize it. It was the bounden duty of the Government to have done that two years ago. They are simply two years too late in dealing with this question, even assuming that the proposition brought down to-day is tenable in. the slightest degree.- The result has been that for two years Messrs. Mackenzie .and Mann have had control of the operation, the finances, and the securities of the Canadian Northern, and they have been able to do what they pleased in regard to them without the slightest interference, or restrictions, or caretaking of the situation by this Government in any w.ay. After two years of non-interference, after after two years of absolute failure to secure the interests of this country, or to make inquiries as to whether or not, or as to how, this road should be nationalized or taken over, the Minister of Finance tojday admits absolutely that they have done nothing; that we are up against the situation, which exists to-day and which has existed for two years, and that they have permitted control to remain in the hands which brought about 226
conditions which rendered interference necessary, .according to hon. gentlemen opposite, in 1914. After two years my hon. friend comes to-day and says: I am going to ask the House to give these gentlemen $15,000,000 more because this is the least they can get along with. He expects the House and the country to accept that. In these times of thrift, of economy and of care being enjoined upon the private individual by advertisements and by publications issued by the Government, the Government themselves are playing the part of spendthrifts. They have permitted this situation to arise, as the result of which $15,000,000 is to be taken out of the public treasury, and we are asked to await the report of a commission, which may never report, and which we isay is simply intended to postpone further action in the hope thait something or another may arise in the future. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that it is a situation which demands more information than we have before us. If my hon. friend can give us any better information than he has I think we ought to have it. I would ask him to give a further explanation of this proposed expenditure of $15,000,000 and a definition of the statement which he has submitted.


William Thomas White: The audited statement of temporary loans and current obligations shows the necessity of a loan of at least $15,000,000, but probably the matter can best be discussed in committee when I shall have all the information before me.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That statement shows the necessity of a loan of $92,000,000.


William Thomas White: Not quite because the Canadian Northern assure us that they will be able to renew loans, or obtain new loans to replace existing loans, and that the one matter of concern to them is the item of current obligations and expenditures.


William Pugsley: There is one .matter in regard to which the Minister of Finance has not given any reasonable information to the House, and I think be might be very well expected to do it in answer to my hon. friend from Pietou (Mr. Macdonald). My hon. friend from Pietou has called attention to the most extraordinary fact that probably for the first itime in the history of this country an appropriation of this character was made by placing it in the Estimates instead of coming before Parliament with a resolution



followed by a Bill so that the details might be discussed, and so that any amendment might be made which the committee would deem desirable. We have here, in the ordinary Estimates submitted to Parliament, a proposal to make a loan of $8,000,000 to the Grand Trunk Pacific, and the only condition which is attached to it is that the disposition of the loan is to be subject to the direction of the Governor in Council. We have also a similar provision with respect to a proposed loan of $15,000,000 to the Canadian Northern. I say, Sir, it is unheard of in the history of this Parliament that a proposition of that kind should be submitted simply as an ordinary Estimate. That there must he some peculiar reason for it is apparent, because with respect to what is known as the Quebec and Saguenay railway, a proposal which is only going to involve some $4,000,000, the Government does not put it in the Estimates in the ordinary way, but the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals has introduced a Bill, which appears to-day on the Order Paper, to acquire that railway. The proper course, it seems to me, would have been for the Minister of Finance to submit a resolution in the ordinary form authorizing the Government to make this loan, and then to follow that up with a Bill, giving the regular authority of the Governor General in Council. The reason for the course adopted ought to be stated to the House.
Some condition, I think, ought to be attached to this loan. In 1914, when the question of giving $45,000,000 aid by guarantees to the Canadian Northern Railway Company was under consideration, I ventured to call attention to the fact that the time might come when it would be deemed in the interest of the country to take over the whole Canadian Northern Railway system and to operate it as a Government railway. I called attention to the fact that the company was admittedly in a bad condition financially, and that unless the country came to its aid at that time to the enormous amount of $45,000,000, it would be compelled to go into the hands of a receiver. I urged that, as the company was proposing that the Government should come to its assistance to that enormous extent, some provision should be made whereby the country could for a reasonable sum, take over this system in the future. I pointed out that the Government ought not to give the requisite assistance to tide this company over its financial difficulties until the day of pros-

perity would arrive, without some provision whereby, if the country decided to acquire the system in the future, it would not be mulcted in an enormous amount for the equities which Mackenzie and Mann would have in the system. If I remember rightly, I moved a resolution at that time fixing the amount at which the country would be entitled to take over the road, at a maximum of $30,000,000, and that resolution was put to a vote of the House. My hon. friend the Solicitor General made the statement at that time, that Messrs Mackenzie and Mann, ratheT than accept the sum of $30,000,000 for their equity in this road, would allow the whole system to go into liquidation.	Upon what	authority	my hon.	friend made that
statement I do not know, but it struck me as an extraordinary statement that those gentlemen, in a condition, as they alleged, practically of bankruptcy at that time should refuse to fix as a maximum a sum of $30,000,000, which at 5 per cent would give to each of those men and his heirs the magnificent sum of $750,000 per year, or upwards of $2,000 per day, and that they would prefer to throw the whole system into liquidation to accepting it. This company comes again and says to this Government:	Again we are practically bankrupt; again we say to you we cannot continue the operation of this road unless you come to our assistance. Is the Government going to go to their relief again without fixing any maximum sum in case the country should wish to take the road over in the future? The Minister of Finance says that the question of nationalization will come up very soon. The Minister of Public Works, giving us the benefit of a very eloquent address the other evening upon the whole railway system of Canada, stated that the whole question of nationalization would soon come up. Are we going to advance this at present bankrupt concern $15,000,000 in addition to the $45,000,000 guaranteed in 1914 and to the other assistance which has been given, so as to tide it over until a day when prosperity again may come to it, and then be obliged, in order to acquire the system and to nationalize the railway, to give Mackenzie and Mann, not $30,000,000, but practically whatsoever they choose to ask? Does not the Minister of Finance think this is the time to fix the terms upon which this country may take over the Canadian Northern railway should we decide to do so? I submit this for the consideration of my hon. friend. While it

is "true he does not give us a very great opportunity to present amendments, yet I think that is an amendment which he himself ought to propose, so that if the country should decide to take over this system, it may know that the system will be taken over on reasonable terms.
I was surprised at the bravery of my right hon. friend the- Prime Minister, coming to this House with a proposition which I would think he would like to see treated in a non-partisan spirit, asking for this extra lgeislation, that he should seek to provoke party feeling in the speech which he has made. Instead of accepting, as I would have thought my right hon. friend would accept the responsibility for that part of the Canadian Northern railway system which is involving this country in the most tremendous part of its liability, namely, the construction of the road through the mountains of British Columbia, my right hon- friend seeks to throw upon the Liberal party the whole responsibility for the disastrous condition in which the country finds itself to-day in respect to the Canadian Northern. Upon what ground does he - do so? Why, he says, I think it is thirteen years ago since I proposed to the then Government that they should provide that there should be only one line of railway through British Columbia to be used jointly by the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern. Let us see whether my right hon. friend is right in saying that the refusal of the then Government to provide for that is the cause of the present situation. Does he forget that in the Transcontinental Railway Act, it is expressly provided that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company shall allow to any other company the use of its rails subject to an agreement to be made by approval of the Governor General in Council, and that under that the Canadian Northern Railway Company might and would necessarily have been allowed the use of the line of the Grand Trunk Pacific from Edmonton through to the Pacific coast. The very thing which my right hon. friend says he thought should be provided is provided for in the agreement for the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific. The late Government refused to grant a subsidy to the Canadian Northern to buikl its railway west of Edmonton. The Government thought-and I think wisely-that they should not go ahead with the new transcontinental line through the Rocky mountains, but should allow the system to 226* .
be developed, allowing the road to get into a position of financial strength before attempting this hazardous enterprise of building through the mountains to the coast. But when this Government came into power, it worked in harmony with Sir Richard McBride, then Premier of British Columbia, who seemed to think that there would be no limit to the wealth and the money which British Columbia could throw into this great enterprise, and he gave a very large subsidy for the road through the Rocky mountains, joining with the Government of British Columbia when that Government guaranteed bonds upon this road to the extent of nearly $40,000,000. Those members of this House who have been in British Columbia and who have gone over the line of the Canadian Pacific or of the Canadian Northern railway, know . that for nearly two hundred miles those two railways run parallel to each other, one upon one side of the Fraser river and the other upon the other side, and that for at least one hundred and fifty miles through that portion of the mountains of British Columbia, there is no reasonable possibility of any traffic whatever to feed the Canadian Northern railway. And yet the hon. gentleman seeks to throw the responsibility for this useless and most expensive construction upon the Liberal party, which refused to countenance any proposition to extend the Canadian Northern through the mountains, but took authority for the use of the Grand Ttunk Pacific line through the mountains should it be desired to afford that connection.


William Thomas White: Does the hon. gentleman suggest that in 1911 it was not understood by the late Government that the Canadian Northern Railway system was to be carried through the Rocky Mountains?	.


William Pugsley: I do state that the late Government did not grant any aid whatever for such a project.


William Thomas White: The hon. gentleman has not answered my question. But, if he will pardon me, I would like to ask him this: In 1911, when the guarantee of $35,000,000 was given by the late Government to the Canadian Northern Railway in respect of the road between Montreal and Port Arthur, was it for the purpose of assisting the Canadian Northern Railway to become a transcontinental railway from Quebec to the waters of the Pacific ocean.

or was it not? Was that the understanding of the Government, or was it not?


William Pugsley: So far as I am aware, the understanding was that it was to give the Canadian Northern Railway prairie section a connection with eastern Canada.


William Thomas White: 
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Pugsley: within the next three years or the next five years, if the country desires to take over the system, the Government shall have the right to do so at a stated maximum price. These are two very important matters which we have a right to consider, and which I trust the Finance Minister will give us an opportunity of considering when the question comes before the committee.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have heard with amazement the words " bankrupt " and " bankruptcy " in connection with these railway systems. I do not believe that they are bankrupt, or that there will soon be any bankruptcy about them. I hope that the Canadian people will be sufficiently broad-minded and patriotic to do what is necessary to help these two roads if they really need this further aid, subject, of course, to the furnishing of all the particular information to which the House is entitled. If it is true that the Government contemplates appointing a commission to nationalize the two systems, I think the Government would be very unwise to incur further expenditure by acquiring the two other lines of railway mentioned in a notice of motion on the Order Paper to-day. All I want to say is this: .when the Minister of Finance brings in the information which was asked for by the member for South Renfrew, I wish he would also submit the figures establishing the amount spent on the construction of the Quebec railway and the other road between Lyster and St. Jean des Chaillons. Will he state, also, whether these two roads are to be acquired with a view to their forming part of the National Transcontinental, and what amount will be required to complete them? I understand that one runs on the south shore of the St. Lawrence from Lyster on the Intercolonial railway to St. Jean des Chaillons, and the other on the' north shore from Quebec to Murray Bay. From St. Joachim to Murray Bay, on the north shore, I understand that nothing has been done but the grading; what will it cost the country to complete that road? It is very important that we should get this information, in order that we may know if, with the railway situation as it stands to-ddy, we are going to extend one of the two systems, namely, the National Transcontinental.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
Militia and Defence-Dominion	arsenal,

Robert Laird Borden: When this item was under discussion on a previous occasion some information was asked for by the member for Pictou as to whether the house of a merchant named Strickland, of Trenton, had been put out of bounds for the troops stationed there. The following telegram has been received:
Strickland's store placed out bounds account strong suspicion selling intoxicants and statements of proprietor calculating great trouble amongst troops.
The hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) asked for certain information, which has been thus summarized by the department :
(a)	When were the 6 Battalions now stationed at Edmonton authorized?
(b)	Why were they ail authorized at the same time?
(c)	What is the present strength.
The answer placed in my hands by the deputy minister is as follows:	,
(a and c) Dates and present strength of battalions as follows:
Date au- Present strength.
Bat- talion.	thorized.	Other Officers, ranks.	Total.138th..	.. 19.11-15	33	1,023	1,056151st..	. . 26-11-15	33	1,241	1,274194th. .	. . 28-1-16	31	994	1,025196th..	. . 1-2-16	6	216	222202nd..	. . 4-2-16	31	491	522218th. .	. . 23-2-16	5	542	547233rd. .	. . 14-3-16	8	41	[DOT] 49The 196th Battalion will	be raised	by thewestern	universities,	one company being raised	
in each province independently to begin with, and later the battalion staff will be furnished by the four provinces. A committee has been appointed by the western universities to work in conjunction with the District Officers Commanding, Military Districts Nos. 10, 11 and 13.
The 233rd Battalion is French Canadian Battalion from the western provinces.
(b) The Units mentioned above are authorized on dates given, in order that recruiting and organization might be completed as much as possible, before the commencement of camp.
The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) asked for some information about recruiting officers in Ottawa, and guards on some of the canals. The memorandum handed to me is as follows:
There is no recruiting office now stationed at the corner of Sparks and Elgin streets. The base recruiting office is located on Sparks street, between Bank and O'Connor streets. No expense was attached to this recruiting office for rent of

building, as the space occupied was given free by the owners until a month ago, when, an offer having been made by other parties, the Government agreed to pay rent at the rate of $200 per month. Other recruiting offices, including the one on Elgin street, which have from time to time been established, have been at no expense to the public, as they have been run regimentally, and' the buildings have been donated free of rent. 4,758 men enlisted in Ottawa since beginning of war.
The Guards on the Iroquois, Morrishurg and Cardinal sections have cost since the beginning of the war $258,274.35.	350 men have been
employed since the beginning of the war as guards on these canals.


Mr. OLIVER:: I notice that the facts are as I stated them to be, that there are to-day four regiments besides the Universities Regiment, that is five altogether, being recruited at Edmonton at the moment, besides two others at full strength; and I am satisfied that there are others being recruited there. I know there was recruiting for a regiment to be known as the Bantams of Vancouver, at Edmonton. They may have ceased their operations at Edmonton now. This fact demonstrates that no discrimination whatever is used in the securing of recruits, in the way of having regard to the requirements of civil life; that the department simply goes after recruits whenever and wherever it can get them, without regard to any other circumstance. And more than that, the fact that so many units are being recruited in the same place at the same time tends against the success of the work. There is instituted a spirit of competition between the different officers who are engaged in recruiting that does not tend to success. I admit that probably to have two battalions recruiting at the same time and in the same place may give a healthy measure of competition; but when more than two are recruited it certainly is injurious rather than beneficial. I think it is only fair to draw the attention of the minister to my opinion in regard to that. I have done so in view of the number of men recruited in Edmonton and the number of branches of the service for which they have been recruited. I may claim to speak for a part of the country that has shown as good a military spirit as any other.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that is eminently true. My hon. friend no doubt has in mind that these regiments are recruited, I suppose, from a considerable district around Edmonton. I remember one which went through not long ago whose members had come to a considerable extent from the Peace river country. There has been an endeavour in some cases at least,
to my certain knowledge, to adjust the recruiting to the requirements of local conditions. I cannot recall that any representations ever came to my attention concerning Edmonton, but I do recall other cases; and in those cases- an endeavour was made by the department to meet local conditions through the guidance of recruiting officers.


Frank Oliver: under my notice, and they certainly do not bear out that contention.
If I may be permitted, I would like to refer to something that came up when this item was under discussion on Saturday. I discussed what had happened to the 9th Battalion recruited at Edmonton, and I informed the committee of the fact that the colonel who had recruited that battalion, and who had been colonel of the original volunteer battalion out of which the 9th Battalion was formed, had been displaced by Colonel Maynard Rogers, formerly of Ottawa, and that under Colonel Maynard Rogers' command the battalion had been broken up and had not been sent to the front as a unit. The men themselves, their relatives and friends, and the community from which they came, certainly felt a great sense of grievance, and they believe that Col. Maynard Rogers was in large measure responsible for that result. To-day I have been favoured with a letter from General Hughes, enclosing a letter from Colonel Rogers to myself, in which both General Hughes and Colonel Rogers take exception to the statements I made. I will not trouble the House by reading the letters; I will just draw attention to one paragraph in General Hughes' letter. He says:
Permit me to say you are entirely in error, and that Colonel Osborne was relieved on account of his incapacity, and by my direction.
I am not going to discuss Colonel Osborne; I do not know whether he was capable ot incapable; but I do know that he was the means of raising a regiment, one of the first regiments to reach Val-cartier, and that, to that degree, he certainly rendered good service to his country, and, in all fairness, I think, was entitled to some consideration. I do not suggest that, because Colonel Osborne was successful in raising a regiment, he would therefore be a competent military commander in the field. I do not say that any injustice was done to Colonel Osborne by his being retired, but I do say that when the Department of Militia, or the Government, saw fit to replace Colonel Osborne by Colonel Rogers, and that then under the command of Colonel Rogers that battalion was not considered fit to take the field, I am compelled to reach the conclusion that Colonel Rogers was not competent. At any rate, without discussing the matter at any greater length, General Hughes and Colonel Rogers will have to divide between them the responsibility for the fact which resulted in: such a tremendous disappoint-

ment to the men who had enlisted in that battalion, .to their relatives and friends, and to the community from which they came, by reason of its being broken up, disbanded practically, or attached to other units, thus being deprived of the privilege of going forward as an Edmonton battalion which was of course their desire. The men did go forward as members of other units, and casualty lists show that they played their part as other men played their parts. We arc not complaining, because they volunteered to render service in the Empire's cause; they were privileged to render that service, hut there is a certain reasonable measure of consideration to which men and officers are entitled, and which they certainly did not receive in this case. In his letter General Hughes says that I am attacking Colonel Rogers. I have no desire to attack Colonel Rogers; it is a condition of facts of which I complain. Colonel Rogers in his letter also seems to suggest that I am attacking him. I repeat that I have no desire to attack Colonel Rogers. But I do desire to place before the House the fact that every man in the 9th Battalion, and his right to take his part in the cause for which he volunteered, is just as important to me as Colonel Rogers or General Hughes. I do not propose to allow such an occurrence to pass without due notice in this House, even though Colonel Rogers, and even General Hughes, may consider it in some degree a reflection on them. I have no desire to reflect on either of them, but I make a statement of fact, and that fact was certainly most unpleasant and most injurious to the men who were concerned, and to the locality from which they came.
It is a fact that that occurrence has not prevented further recruiting in Edmonton; it is a fact that the patriotism of the people, not of Edmonton alone, but of the country surrounding,' is such that they are prepared to come forward and offer themselves even although they do not get that recognition which they have a right to expect. But I must point out to the minister that while that may he the case in Edmonton, it is not likely to be the case throughout the country. When an instance,, such as I speak of, occurs in Edmonton- and I think it must be admitted that it was a most aggrevated instance-similar instances may have occurred in other places; and when we comment, as sometimes people do comment, upon the slackness of recruiting in different localities, perhaps such incidents may have some-

thing to do with it. I say it would be well for those who are responsible for the conduct of our affairs to see that such incidents do not occur, and to see that no reason is given to cause such a sense of disappointment and unfairness amongst the men as would tend to prevent others from offering themselves for service. When a man offers himself, with the sacrifice of his time, his position, and even his life, he is surely entitled to a square deal. If he does not get it he and his friends feel a sense of injustice.
There is another instance I desire to draw attention to. The 3rd C.M.R. was not from Edmonton city, but from the country east of Edmonton. Major Fane, the commander of the unit, came from Veg-reville. The unit went into action some time in December of last year. They suffered very heavy casualties; I think one-third of them were killed and wounded in one day's operations. One of the officers was killed and the major was very badly wounded. They were very severely cut up. As far as I am aware, they conducted themselves with all credit; and our authorities showed their regard for the services rendered by this unit by wiping them out. There is no 3rd C.M.R. now. The unit has ceased to exist because it has been distributed among other forces just as the 9th battalion was. I do not think that such a system as that is good for the service, I do not think it is to the advantage of recruiting, nor do I think it is creditable to anybody who is concerned in it. Right from the start as far as, our experience goes, no regard whatever has been paid to locality in the matter of recruiting, no regard has been paid to the establishment of fixed units attached to a certain locality where the presence of friends might tend to hold men together and give them a- certain spirit in carrying on their operations. No regard has been paid to that and, due to that fact, we perhaps in a very large measure feel a certain slackness in recruiting that is complained of in a great many cases. In our own case we had three battalions training at Edmonton for the greater part of a year, one of them for over a year. From all of these battalions drafts were sent-two drafts from the 51st and one each from the 63rd and 66th. I do not know where they went or what units they were attached to. No doubt they are serving their country, no doubt they are fighting in the same cause as if they were called the Edmonton or the Alberta battalions, but this is not a good way to inspire our population with a desire
for service. Every consideration should be given to the question of sentiment and it is well to encourage the idea of community of interest among the people of a certain locality. If a certain battalion is known as an Edmonton battalion, or an Alberta battalion, if it is recruited from Edmonton or Alberta, when the men who belong to it go forward, every one concerned, those who remain behind and those who have gone forward, have an interest in what that battalion is doing that he otherwise would nolt have had, and the ignoring of that fact has tended very greatly against rapid recruiting in many parts of the country. It is true that we have done magnificently in the way of recruiting. We have, as the right hon. the Prime Minister has said, raised over 300,000, but we have to raise 200,000 more. It must be remembered that raising the last 200,000 is a very different matter from raising the first 200,000, because the same conditions that produced the first 200,000 do not exist in connection with the last 200,000. Now that we are coming to the point when there is an abundance of employment, when every man who joins must certainly leave a lucrative position, we are facing a situation in connection with which we must recognize all those motives and sentiments that tend towards a willingness to sacrifice for the good of the cause. This 'has not been done in the past. We have done well without it, but we cannot expect to ooi!-tinue to do well and to carry on the bisi-ness in that way. When we claim to have raised 300,000, that means that we have included in that number the rejections, which have been stated as over 20,000. That is not a fair count. 'These men mav have been enlisted, but they have been rejected, they are not part of our forces, and we have no right to count them as [DOT]simply enlisted. We must counit only the men who either have rendered service, or are actually on the road to service.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I wish to bring before my hon. friend the Prime Minister, while he is acting as Minister of Militia and Defence, a subject that has been communicated to me by a gentleman living in my own constituency, a gentleman of some standing and repute, who has been warden of the county, and, for many years, reeve of the township in which he resides, Mr. James Donaldson. Mr. Donaldson writes me that the Militia Department has promulgated an order that soldiers may assist

the farmers for a certain time during the present spring. In tfhe city of Stratford, in the county that I have the honour to represent, there is located the 110th Battalion, probably recruited up to 700 or 800. This order apparently is applied to that battalion and the men have gone into the country districts to work. This gentleman points out (that the season has been very wet and backward, and that while the soldiers have been, and are now, engaged amongst the farmers, the spring work has hardly commenced owing to the wet nature of the ground, and he has asked me to bring the matter up and suggest that the time be extended. I may observe here that what is true in my district may be true elsewhere in Canada and I would therefore request the militia authorities to consider, having regard to the condition of the land throughout every portion of the country, whether the time should not be extended and that, if any action is to be taken, an early announcement of it, almost forthwith if possible, should be made in order that disturbance would not be the outcome of it.


Robert Laird Borden: Where the
weather conditions are unusual I should think the time could be extended as my hon. friend suggests because without an extension, the arrangements under which these men were to assist in putting in the crops, seeding and ploughing would not be productive, of much benefit. The deputy minister tells me that he thinks it can be arranged. In regard to the matters spoken of by my -bon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) we have had calls for drafts from time to time from the War Office. These drafts have been sent forward from a great many battalions in different parts of -the country. There has been an endeavour to keep men from a particular locality as much together as possible, but -the drafts must be supplied when they -are asked for.


Charles Marcil: On Friday afternoon I bad the honour to put a question to the Prime Minister regarding recruiting. I do not know whether I expressed myself properly or whether I was misunderstood by the newspapers, but one newspaper to-night criticises my putting the question on the ground that I advocated that being done. I merely wanted information; I asked- the Prime Minister, in view of conscription being about to be adopted in England and the recent claim that was made th-at taking aw-ajf a large number of men would dislocate the agricultural industry in Canada,

if the Government were contemplating recruiting to the full extent of 500,000 men. I would like to know if a census has been taken as -to recruiting in Canada. I see that one of the senators has been giving out some statistics showing that on the 15th of March last the men enlisted consisted of 61 per cent of British bom, 28i per cent of English-Canadian born, 4i per cent of Fr-ench-Canadian born, and 6 per cent of foreign bom. I know that several questions were put in this House last session in regard to that matter, especially as to the extent of recruiting in the province of Quebec, aud I think that the Minister of Militia replied that he -could not give any information on that -score. I would like to know if the figures I have quoted are official?


Robert Laird Borden: The figures in question are not official.


Charles Marcil: I would like to take advantage of this opportunity to say that the Government is authorizing the recruiting of a number of French Canadian battalions. A French Canadian battalion is being recruited as far west as Edmonton. It would be a great mistake to imagine that French Canadians are recruited only in the province of Quebec. A large number of my constituents hav-e been drafted into New Brunswick battalions, and a large number of French Canadians have been drafted into Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island battalions. The same is true of Ontario; in fact, in some of the battalions recruited in Ottawa some of the companies consist of French Canadians, and the same is true throughout Canada. Recruiting in the province of Quebec has perhaps not been as large as it should be, due to various causes, but I think it would be unfair to cast aspersions upon those who have enlisted and who are doing their duty splendidly at the front, because recruiting has perhaps not been as large as it should have been. I think that if proper measures are taken, recruiting can be increased in the province of Quebec; I think the Government has undertaken the recruiting of men in certain mral parts of the province.


Robert Laird Borden: I am very glad to have the information that my hon. friend has given and I join with him in paying a tribute to that splendid service which has been rendered by the Freneh-Canadians who are at the front.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the Prime
Minister taken into consideration since

Friday last the question of the voting of soldiers enlisted from the province of Nova Scotia?


Robert Laird Borden: I really have
not had an opportunity of taking it up. I had hoped to have a militia council to-day, hut it will have to be postponed until tomorrow and the subject will then be discussed.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would like to
point out to the minister the urgency of the matter because, if any provincial legislation were necessary, as there is likely to be an early prorogation of the legislature, such legislation would have to be presented as soon as possible.


John Gillanders Turriff: If I understood my right . hon. friend the Prime Minister aright, he stated that the cost of patrolling the canal on the Iroquois, Morrisburg and Cardinal sections amounted to $258,000.


Robert Laird Borden: I think it was
something like that.


John Gillanders Turriff: I think the committee
will agree with me that that is a very large sum for the amount of work that is being done. I want to point out to my right hon. friend, who is now Acting Minister of Militia, how to a certain extent the account has been run up to such a high figure. My information is-and I am satisfied that it is fairly correct-that in one company of Hussars, the horses are not owned by the Government, but are hired, and that the Government pays 50 cents a day for each horse, and, of course, the expenses and the keep of the horses; that a good many of the horses are horses that cost about $120 in that locality, and that the owner of each horse has the payment' in full of his horse in eight months; or, if a horse costs $150'he would receive the total value of it in ten months, so that those who have had horses hired to the Government from the outbreeak of the war have collected already about double their value. My information is that some of the officers own a number of horses and are therefore making a very considerable revenue and running up the cost of the guarding of the canal over and above what it would be if the Government followed its usual course and owned the horses that those men are using-
There is another matter that I think accounts to a slight extent for the very high cost of protecting that canal, and that is that with 120 men stationed at Morrisburg, there are 16 officers, or one officer for fewer than eight men. If that is the case-and I
am assured it is-it is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, and I am drawing it to the attention of the acting minister in order that he may look into it and see if that is so, because I can hardly believe it.
I would like to ask a question as to who is the present contractor for clothing supplied to the department, .and who was the contractor last year. I do not think the department bought much clothing last year.


Robert Laird Borden: Before the Chairman of the War Purchasing Commission answers by hon. friend with regard to that matter I would like to say that I understand there are not many horses employed on the canal. There are a few mounted men required. The arrangement, I believe, is that the owner provides the stabling and tabes care of ithe horse; the department provides the fodder, and I think the rate is what my hon. friend has suggested. I will have the matter looked into .and see whether the expense can be reduced.
With regard to the patrolling, I am informed by the deputy minister that every patrol on the canal must be in charge of an officer, and .some times .a patrol consists of only eight or ten men. The work has to be carried on day and night. I do not know about the particular district to which my hon. friend has alluded, bult I do know something about the work which was carried on in the vicinity of the Niagara peninsula, because I inspected some of the posts there last summer. The work is important and has to be attended to with a great deal of diligence, and if my hon. friend were made acquainted with all the intimations that have come to us from time to time a.s to the danger at this, that, or the other point, he would feel with us, I am sure, that even if the expense be pretty large, the Government ought not to relax any reasonable precautions. A lack of vigilance at some particular place, even for a very short time, might result in great destruction of property. lit has been held that the.se precautions ought to be of the most efficient character possible.


John Gillanders Turriff: I have no intention of
suggesting that precaution should be relaxed in any way. My information is that men going out on patrol go two men at a time for two hours and patrol three miles and back. Possibly it may be that a larger proportion of officers are necessary. However, I am quite satisfied to have drawn the matter to the attention of the minister,

and I feel sure that if unnecessary expense is being incurred an effort will be made to curtail it.


Robert Laird Borden: A patrol of two or three men was sent on without officer last year with the result that one man was killed and another severely wounded in some shooting that took place. It created some international difficulty at that time. I understand that since then the military authorities have taken the ground that the men who are doing patrol duty must be in command of an officer.


Mr. KEMP:: The hon. member for Assini-boia as I understood him wanted to know who was the contractor for clothing previous to the war and who is the contractor at the present time.


John Gillanders Turriff: I wanted to find out
who was the present contractor and who was the previous contractor, if they were different.


Albert Edward Kemp: Before the war broke out?


John Gillanders Turriff: No.


Albert Edward Kemp: There are scores of contractors for clothing at the present time. Clothing is open to competition; tenders are asked for, and the lowest tenderer gets the contract.


John Gillanders Turriff: Not always.


Albert Edward Kemp: Always. In order to give
competition, it was divided into units, so that the clothing manufacturers could become interested, and the saving has been very great.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There is a vote of
$800,000 for clothing this year. Is that clothing purchased through the War Purchasing Commission?


Albert Edward Kemp: I understand that that vote is for clothing for the militia force. Last year there was no vote of that character ki clothing. I am inclined to think though I am not speaking by the book, and am not certain of the policy of the department, that the department will draw on the stores for that clothing. If not, they will need to buy it by tender, or have it made under the present contract with the department.


John Gillanders Turriff: If this clothing is used by our army, why is it charged to the Militia Department, instead 01 xo the war vote like other munitions of war?


Albert Edward Kemp: As I explained, this item of $800,000 to which the hon. member for Pic-tou has referred, is for the militia force. Therefore, it is in the militia Estimates. But the war appropriation vote is $250,000,000 which went through last week.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is it the policy of
the department to go on with the training and issuing of clothing to the militia when nearly all have gone overseas? There is only a skeleton organization.
_ Sir ROBERT BORDEN:	That was explained when the item passed. No clothing has been bought for some time, and it is necessary to provide it now. Some of the militia are on active service. This may also provide some clothing for a force raised for home defence, as suggested, I think, by the hon. member for Edmonton, when we were discussing this matter a day or two ago.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: At $20 a suit this
would provide for 40,000 men. There is not that number of our militia who have not gone overseas.


Robert Laird Borden: The information I have is that the money is needed to provide the militia, permanent and nonpermanent, with clothing and necessaries. No vote for this purpose was taken in 191516 and consequently provision for 1916-17 is all the more necessary. The estimate of the Quartermaster General shows a total of over $1,000,000 but $800,000 will provide for present wants. I have details here of the number of caps and other articles in store. It does not follow that all this money will be used this year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will this clothing
be made by the contractors for the Militia Department?


Albert Edward Kemp: The contractors for the
militia clothing am Mark Workman of Montreal and the Sanford Company. Their contract for militia clothing expires in 1917. They have been manufacturers, I believe, for a good many years past.
.Mr. DOUGLAS: I desire to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to a condition regarding recruiting which prevails in Edmonton. As he is aware the city of Edmonton and surrounding country has done a large amount of recruiting, and at present we have six battalions, a portion of which have not their full complement of men. I find a news item in an Edmonton paper which states that the 210th Battalion

of Mooeej-aw has opened a recruiting office in Edmonton. The item is as follows:
Captain J. L. Thomas, the recruiting officer for the 210th Battalion, with headquarters in Moose jaw, Sask., announces that an office for recruiting has been opened in Boom 5 in the Empire Block, corner of Jasper avenue and) 101st street. He also desires to contradict a report that has been set in circulation to the effect that this battalion is not an overseas unit. The 210th .has been authorized by Ottawa for mobilizaion in Moose jaw, Sask., and to recruit for overseas service in not only Saskatchewan, but Alberta also. Free transportation is given eligible recruits and owing to the fact that the men of this unit are either nearly all soldiers with previous active service o,r at any rate military training a much earlier departure for overseas is looked for than is usual. The 210th will put in their summer training at Sewell camp.
The point is that the province of Alberta has recruited more than her quota according to population in the overseas battalions. We have regiments not yet recruited to full strength. I understand that the policy of the department is not to authorize any new battalion until the battalions already authorized are up to strength. In view of that policy I think it is an injustice to Alberta, and to the city of Edmonton in particular, that an outside battalion with headquarters in Moosejaw should be permitted to have .its officers' come up and Tecruit soldiers from Alberta, pay transportation to Moosejaw, and take eligible men away who may be required to fill battalions at present being organized in Edmonton.


Robert Laird Borden: I think there is a good deal of force in the hon. gentleman's suggestion. I will bring the matter to- the attention of the Adjutant General, who has control of such matters, and ask him to deal with it.


Frank Oliver: Would the Prime Minister he good enough to get from the department, for the information of the committee, a list of the various units, detachments and sections that have been recruited at Edmonton?	.


William Stewart Loggie: When I was home at Easter my attention was drawn to the fact that the railway bridges crossing the two branches of the Miramichi river were inefficiently protected, and I'was asked to draw the attention of the department to the fact-. In the event of any disaster happening through the action of an enemy, certainly transportation would be very much interfered with. I simply draw the attention of the department to the fact that
the interests of the country are more or less at stake through these bridges not being properly and efficiently patrolled.


Robert Laird Borden: I may say that my attention has been called to the matter. I communicated with the Department of Railways and Canals, and I understand that an intimation has come from the general manager that the subject is being dealt with.
Department of Militia and Defence-contingencies, $9,000.


Frank Oliver: There are some matters that I should like to discuss under this item, particularly that of the necessity of larger allowances to dependents, with a view to relieving the Patriotic Fund.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend might discuss that when the Bill comes before the committee.


Frank Oliver: I would very much rather discuss it on the Estimate, and if possible this evening.


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid I cannot very well be here this evening. We can let the item stand, if the hon. gentleman wishes; hut there is precisely the same opportunity of discussion in committee upon the Bill as there is now.


Frank Oliver: I would rather have the discussion on this item than on the Bill.


Robert Laird Borden: Very good; we had better let the item stand.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at ei^ht o'clock, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Supplementary Estimates 1916-17. Railways and Canals-St. John terminal facilities-rebuilding grain elevator, $500,000.


Mr. REID:: Before taking up this item,
may I give some information which was asked for by the hon. member for Antig-onish (Mr. Chisholm) about the garden plot at Antigonish station. I wired to Moncton for the information and received this telegram in reply:
The loam used In making Antigonish garden plot was taken from our right of way near Malagash station. After four cars had been unloaded It was found that two carloads were suificient. As a result two cars were loaded back on the cars and shipped to Mulgrave, where it was used for similar purposes. The cost of loading done by regular sectionmen was about five dollars per car. The cost of reloading the two cars at Antigonish was approximately ten dollars.
F. P. Gautelius.

The hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) asked me the date when the single fare for soldiers went into effect. I wired Moncton and have received this telegram from Mr. Hayes:
Your message fifth. Arrangements for single fare for soldiers on leave is generally in effect on Government railways. Frst arranged for Easter holidays. April twentieth to twenty-fourth inclusive and became generally effective April twenty-eight, it taking few days to print and distribute instructions to agents. If Mr. Macdonald has any instance where agents failing to carry out instructions would be pleased to investigate.
C. A. Hayes.
With reference to the item before us, the St. John elevator, the Intercolonial had an elevator at St. John which was destroyed by fire on August 13, 1914. It is the intention to build a transfer elevator at St. John, at Reid's point, with a capacity of about
500,000	bushels, which will serve a new slip. Conveyors would be extended to McLeod's and Pettinger's wharves. The object of locating at this point, instead of on the site of the old elevator, is to preserve the old site for yard accommodation. There is also .an item for $55,000 for the steamer Northumberland. This steamer has been plying between Prince Edward Island and Northumberland for a number of years. The company have disposed of their two vessels. The Northumberland was purchased by the Government for $55,000, and will now be operated .as part of the railway system.


Frank Oliver: What will be the capacity of the elevator to be erected?


John Dowsley Reid: The machinery of the elevator will have a capacity of 1,000,000 bushels, but the storage at first will be only 500,000 bushels. It is more of >a transfer elevator. We hope to get the 500,000 bushel elevator up before next winter, and it will then be easy to add as much additional capacity as we wish.


Frank Oliver: It seems to be a large price for an elevator of .small capacity.


John Dowsley Reid: The .initial cost of erecting an elevator is estimated at about $1 a bushel. That is largely for the machinery. Then, of course, when additional storage capacity is erected that costs much less in proportion, as the machinery is already installed. This will be done by tender, of course, and if we could have an elevator of 750,000 bushel capacity erected for $500,000 we should he very glad.


Frank Oliver: I quite agree that it is necessary to have this elevator, and I approve of the vote. My only criticism would he .as to the limited capacity of the elevator. What is the capacity of the Canadian Pacific railway elevator at St. John?


John Dowsley Reid: They have built a new elevator, with a capacity of one and a half millions, then there was an old elevator with a capacity of about one million. The difficulty with the Intercolonial has been that if we did (take grain to St. John we had no elevator of our own, and the Canadian Pacific railway always claimed that they had all the grain they could handle from their own line, and then, of course, there were the shunting charges across St. John, so that we were really not in a position to handle grain. Even with 500,000 bushels we would be able to handle quite a little outward-bound grain. In addition to that, if we come in on the St. John Valley road, we go right into the Canadian Pacific railway yards, and we will not have the heavy shunting charges.


Frank Oliver: Is the new elevator to be on the same side of the harbour as the Canadian Pacific railway elevators, or is it at Courtenay bay?


John Dowsley Reid: It is to be on the Courtenay bay or east side of the harbour. The Government own a lot of property, part of which they sold for a sugar refinery, and this is to be near the sugar refinery with carriers that will serve on the west side. It is on the east side of the harbour, but west of the elevator, and it will also serve Courtenay bay. It is intended to provide a storage capacity of more than 500,000 bushels, but we thought that if we could have
500,000	bushels capacity, and these vessels came next winter as they came last winter, we could put through a large quantity of grain by that transfer as well as by the transfer at Halifax.


Frank Oliver: Is it the intention of the Government to make the connections over the St. John Valley line with this elevator; is it part of the scheme?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, we will go right over
that line.


Frank Oliver: This elevator is to be part of the new system of handling trade to St. John over the St. John Valley line?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. As the hon. member
for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) stated the other

night, this route is 100 miles shorter than by the Canadian Pacific Railway. Of course, when we go over the eleven miles of the Canadian Pacific Railway we go through the Canadian Pacific Railway yards and right over to the Intercolonial terminals which are around Courtenay bay. We run right through to our own station. Our station will be on the east side, near where the other elevator was established.


Frank Oliver: Is this elevator accessible to the Intercolonial?


John Dowsley Reid: It is right on the .Intercolonial.


Frank Oliver: My only criticism would
be, first, that there might be a danger of the elevator not being built soon enough, and next that there is a very great probability of it not being big enough. To carry on the discussion, which we had with the minister some time ago, I would like to go on record as holding the view that it is absolutely necessary for the proper handling of the grain in the West over the Transcontinental line by all the year-round transit that there should be ample accommodation at the city of St. John, not merely sufficient to make a transfer of one or two cargoes, but to carry a considerable amount of grain as it is carried, though not to such a large extent, at the head of the lakes in storage. In order to -be of value in handling the grain, the railroad must bring it iorward as its rolling stock will permit, so many thousand bushels a day, or so many thousands a week. That quantity cannot be speeded up very much. The railways must carry the grain forward as their rolling stock will permit it to be carried forward, and, if there is not ample storage accommodation at the winter port, in the event of the iparket being depressed, or of vessels not being available, that movement by rail would have to cease until the small capacity transfer elevator at St. John was relieved; whereas if there was ample capacity at the St. John elevator that movement could be kept up continuously. That is the principle which I see in the successful handling of the grain of the Northwest, the possibility of keeping up a continuous movement by rail all the year round, m winter, as well as in summer. I am emphasizing this point because the Minister of Trade and Commerce the other night, and the Acting Minister of Railways to-night,
seemed rather to hold the view that there is no necessity for any considerable storage at the Atlantic 'winter port which is open and available to vessels all the year round, and that it might be supposed that the vessels would remove the grain as fast as it was brought in. In theory they would, but not in practice. The grain must go forward in a continuous stream, as the rolling stock of the railway will permit, and its transfer across the ocean then depends, partly on the condition of the market, and partly on the available ocean transport. There must be a large amount of storage accommodation, or that movement cannot take place in that way. My suggestion is that the minister get the biggest elevator he can for the money, and if he cares to double the amount, assuming that it is intended to transact business over the Transcontinental with the view of giving a continuous outlet of grain all the year round, he can go as far as he likes in elevatorbuilding at St. John, and I will be glad to support him.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member misunderstood me if he thinks that I was discussing this along the line that we did not require large storage capacity at the winter port. Years ago, in discussing this elevator question, I took the stand, and I think it was almost the unanimous opinion of the House, that we should have a large terminal storage capacity at our ocean ports. At that time it was Montreal that we had chiefly in mind, and at that time, I think, we had a capacity of only 1,000,000 bushels there. Now we have a capacity of 15,000,000 bushels, and a capacity of one and a half million bushels at Quebec. Last year, or probably two years ago, the capacity at St. John was increased by the establishment of a new elevator. We have now a capacity of one and a half million bushels in the new elevator, and, I think, a capacity of 1,000,000 bushels in the old elevator. I think we should have a great deal more accommodation, and no doubt it will have to be increased each year until we get a large capacity at St. John and Halifax. But I thought that we should have at once an elevator with a large capacity at Transcona, or at some other place in that section, and also that we should have one at once at St. John. In discussing the matter with the Minister of Finance, he asked me what I thought we would be able to get along with this year, that is, up till next spring, and I thought that if we could succeed in getting at each place a capacity of 500,000

bushels, then next year we could go on and extend it. I thought that that would be much better than building an elevator with a capacity of 1,000,000 bushels or
1.500.000	bushels at St. John without the small one at Winnipeg. The difficulty, I am informed by the management of the railway, is that they have to haul the grain to Fort William, which means a back haul on account of not having a transfer elevator at Winnipeg, where they could weigh the grain, inspect it, and give the certificates the same as is done at Saskatoon and Fort William. By having this elevator at a point where the Transcontinental and the Grand Trunk Pacific meet, so that the grain could pass through the elevator and be weighed, and certified, the Transcontinental will save that back haul down to Fort William, and, on that account, be able to handle very much more grain. It will go right straight through to Armstrong, Quebec, St. John and Halifax. We will be in this position as far as the Intercolonial is concerned': If we can get this
500.000	bushel elevator up, we will have
1.250.000	bushels capacity between Halifax and St. John. That will put us in not a bad position to start with next fall. I do not think we can spend more than $1,000,000 between the two this year. At the same time I have tried to carry out the wishes of the Finance Minister (Sir Thomas White) that T should just place in the Estimates what I thought I could spend. If it overruns the amount a little, we may have to have a Supplementary Estimate next year but we will try and get as large a capacity as we can for this amount.


Mr. COPP:: Did I understand the minister as telling my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) that the Intercolonial tracks now run to the point selected for the building of this elevator!


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman knows where the sugar refinery has been built. The track runs around and out to this point they call Reid's Point. The elevator is to be built in that vicinity near the sugar refinery. Then carriers can be run along the shore on the west side to it, and when Courtenay bay is developed so that vessels can get in there, carriers can go the other way. This elevator has only 500,000 bushels capacity. Of course, it will be extended on down towards the Courtenay bay side as well. . The management tell me that they think that would be bettor for the Intercolonial railway.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What I want to find out from the minister is whether the spur line Tunning from the Intercolonial track is already built to the point where the elevator will be?


John Dowsley Reid: At the present time a little line runs over there but when the Courtenay bay scheme is carried out, it will not be used as it now is. That is a new scheme altogether.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is the Courtenay bay
scheme?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, with the Courtenay bay scheme, there is a new way of coming in. The line we have now would never do for that.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is there a way by which they can come in to that elevator until the Courtenay bay scheme is developed?


John Dowsley Reid: As soon as we can get sufficient work done on the Courtenay bay route, so that we can change the route to come in by Courtenay bay, we will do so. We have an amount in the Estimates for that work.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand that what the minister is proposing is that grain for export coming over the Transcontinental railway, will come down over the Transcontinental to McGivniey junction, then over the St. John Valley railway and the Canadian Pacific to St. John?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: And on through to this proposed elevator?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Mr. OOPP:: Provided you want to take the grain over the Transcontinental railway to Moncton and, down over the Intercolonial to St. John, what connection have you to enable you to get these car loads of grain to the boats?


John Dowsley Reid: Just the same.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The link of the Valley railway from Gagetown to Westfield) is not supposed to be completed until the first of February, 1917, and it is very doubtful if all the contracts will be completed by that date; therefore, during this coming fall, the export grain which cannot go down by way of the Valley railway ought to go by Moncton and St. John.


John Dowsley Reid: Wje have that connection now and they are using it every day. We have a shunting engine that is kept busy shunt-

ing around there .now. That is where they load the lumlber and that is where the sugar refinery takes in its supplies.


George Perry Graham: Why should this elevator be charged to the Intercolonial railway when it is for the busines-s of the St. John Valley and Transcontinental ? Is it proposed to bring grain over the Intercolonial railway and not over the Transcontinental ? Why not build it as a Government elevator and1 allow either the Intercolonial or the other road to use it? There will be that capital ohaTge, or burden, upon the Intercolonial railway when it is for the use of another road unless you propose to allow the Intercolonial to make a profit out of the charges for handling the grain.


John Dowsley Reid: The Intercolonial always had an elevator. I never thought of that point. I thought it was simply replacing the old elevator that the Intercolonial had. I do not think it is a very serious matter. The hon. gentleman will see that in the next item we have an elevator charged against the Transcontinental railway.


George Perry Graham: But that is on the Transcontinental railway, and for the use of the T ranscontinental.


John Dowsley Reid: This is really on the Intercolonial Railway system.


George Perry Graham: But not for Intercolonial traffic.


John Dowsley Reid: It is partly for Intercolonial traffic. We propose to put this elevator on property which is owned and controlled by the Intercolonial railway. The St. John Valley road will go into the Intercolonial station and will use our terminals and yet it could not be called a part of the Intercolonial railway. I do not think that is a very serious point.


George Perry Graham: It is not very serious. I was to-day asked the question:	What
capital has been expended on the Intercolonial railway? The argument against the Intercolonial is based quite often on the amount of money that has been expended on capital account. Here is half a million being charged up to the Intercolonial railway although primarily it is not for Intercolonial traffic. This is only a unit, as I understand. Other units are to be added and in time we may have a further capital charge of a million and a half before we get through although it is to accommodate the traffic of another road.


John Dowsley Reid: There is a difference of
opinion in regard to that. It is to be on Intercolonial property and the Intercolonial should have an elevator anyway. It will have the use of the elevator.


George Perry Graham: Will there be any revenue for the Intercolonial railway from the traffic that is created through this elevator?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not suppose there will
be. If it goes through the yard of the Intercolonial railway there might be some but I do not know what the nature of the traffic would be there,


George Perry Graham: The Intercolonial gets
all the expense and none of the benefit.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know what we could charge it too. We could only charge it to the Intercolonial or the Transcontinental railway.


George Perry Graham: You build elevators elsewhere and you do not charge them to the roads that the elevators are placed on. At St. John there will be just a plain elevator built and you can call it a Government elevator.


John Dowsley Reid: It adds to the value of the
property.


George Perry Graham: Certainly it does in a
way. I just raised the point because it seemed to me that it might perhaps have been overlooked. The Transcontinental railway will have the benefit of the elevator but it will be an expense to the Intercolonial. The St. John Valley railway is tc be extended to meet the Transcontinental traffic and bring it across by the short way into St. John and it is not to go around by the Intercolonial. If it were not to do that it would not be built. But we have an elevator to receive that traffic and we are charaging it up to the poor, overburdened Intercolonial railway which has everything charged to it when we cannot find some other account to charge to.


Charles Marcil: What does the minister
intend doing with the section of the Transcontinental railway between Levis and Moncton? I have heard that there is a great deal of congestion on the Intercolonial railway. Does he intend carrying the traffic that reaches Quebec, and that is to be sent down to Halifax and St. John, over the Intercolonial railway and not utilize that section of the Transcontinental railway?


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member knows the position in which we have been during the past winter. The equipment on the Intercolonial was all the equipment we had, and that equipment was run over the Intercolonial and part over the Levis-Moncton branch, -and quite a lot of freight went over that branch at times during the winter. Until we can get more equipment for the Transcontinental it will be hard foT us to do more than we have been doing. We [DOT]have ordered a large -amount of equipment and we will operate the two systems to the best advantage. The branch from Levis to Moncton is a good road, and after next fall we will use it almost entirely for the St. John traffic, because we go in by McGivn-ey junction and on down to St. John. I hope that the elevator which we will have at St. John next year will help us out very materially.


Charles Marcil: You are not going to carry any grain beyond Quebec next summer?


John Dowsley Reid: Not likely, because when it gets to Quebec it is at an ocean port, and it would only be adding so much to the freight to carry it on to St. John or Halifax. Of course, there are transports being sent to Canadian ports by the Admiralty, and some of them may be ordered to St. John or Halifax even during the summer months, and the Admiralty may order us to take grain, or hay, or ammunition to those ports. In that case, we will carry out their instructions, but it is not natural to carry freight past Quebec or Montreal during the summer months.


Charles Marcil: What kind of a passenger service is given between Levis and Moncton on the Transcontinental?


John Dowsley Reid: The road is in operation and a tri-weekly passenger service is given.


Charles Marcil: Is there a regular freight service?


John Dowsley Reid: Freight is also carried.


Charles Marcil: Will the service be improved during the coming summer?


John Dowsley Reid: We are at present able to keep up the freight -and passenger service fairly well and we will keep it up during the summer. Now that navigation has opened on the St. Lawrence, with the equipment we have we do not anticipate much trouble along the road.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister been giving serious consideration- to the ques-

t-ion of the elevator capacity for storage purposes at the citj* of Quebec? If the Transcontinental is to be used to any extent, I suppose the Government will wish to get as much grain as possible to Quebec in the fall for shipment out in- the spring.


John Dowsley Reid: We have a storage capacity of 1,500,000 bushels.


George Perry Graham: Has the Government that storage?


John Dowsley Reid: That is -under the Harbour Commission.


George Perry Graham: It has no connection with the Government railway system?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


George Perry Graham: Has the Government
thought of developing elevator facilities' at the city of Quebec to handle the traffic coming over the Transcontinental from the West?


John Dowsley Reid: We have been thinking over that matter as well as elevator capacity at other points along the line, but we have not decided to do anything during the present year. We intend to see how we can get along with the capacity that we have during the coming season, and having the other two ports besides Montreal -and Quebec to take the grain- to, with this elevator that we are getting -at St. John, I anticipate we shall be able to handle a large quantity of grain. We did not provide for any more elevator capacity this year for the reason that we thought the grain would be going through pretty fast and that we would get along without much storage.


Frank Oliver: When the minister gets next year the elevator capacity that he speaks about -at St. John, does he expect that the connection that has been under discussion by the St. John v-alley will be completed?


John Dowsley Reid: The members of the .New
Brunswick Government told me that they expected to have that completed and ready for operation by the 1st of December, but in order to be sure, they asked that the date be filled in-I think it is February 1. That is the understanding that I have with them.


Frank Oliver: If you have the elevator
ready, you can reach it over the Intercolonial.


John Dowsley Reid: Just the same; it is only a
question of so many miles further.


Frank Oliver: During the past winter
the department put into force between Winnipeg and Montreal or Quebec a rate that was recognized as a very reasonable one, and one which competed with water traffic, but they did not put in a rate from Quebec or Montreal to St. John. They are going to build an elevator, at St. John, but unless they put in a rate to St. John that will correspond with the rate that they put into force during the past winter from Winnipeg to Quebec or Montreal, they might as well not build that ,elevator. It will be of no use because last winter's rate was so adjusted that it simply made it possible to use the storage capacity at Montreal and Quebec without any advantage to the shipper and did not make it possible to use the accommodation at St. John, because there was no rate reduction that would enable that to be done. I am asking the minister if, in view of the proposed construction of this elevator at St. John, it is to be the policy of the department that a through rate to the port of St. John will be given at a corresponding charge per mile to that given last winter from Winnipeg to Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: That rate from Winnipeg to Quebec proved to be quite an advantage. There was an enormous quantity of grain in the West last year, and pressure was put on the Minister of Railways to see if he could do anything to relieve the congestion. He had only a small equipment-just what he could take from the Intercolonial. At Montreal and Quebec there was quite a large storage capacity that was not being filled. If the Canadian Pacific Railway took the grain through, they would take it right to St. John, because they had an elevator there, and if the Grand Trunk took it through, they would take it to their elevators at Portland. We had no elevators at St. John and there was not much chance of the Transcontinental taking grain to St. John.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to revive
that argument. All I am asking is, what is the policy for the future?


John Dowsley Reid: I want to show the hon.
member that the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) said: as an experiment we will take this grain to Montreal at the same rate as the summer rate of last year, that is 6 cents, and fill those elevators. That, of course, must have been a great advantage during the winter.
227J


Frank Oliver: It was a certain amount
of advantage.


John Dowsley Reid: If there had been elevator
capacity at Fort William, the grain would have gone there and the shippers would have had to pay the same storage rates as they would at Montreal, so the storage question was exactly the same.


Frank Oliver: That is right.
Mr.* REID: As to the question of what is to be done next year; the hon. member knows that through rates are always made between Winnipeg, or the West, and ocean ports. That matter will he taken up by the minister and his general freight agent,, and a conclusion will be reached, as to a. through rate between' Winnipeg and St-John and Halifax. This grain that went, through last fall all went to Montreal and' Quebec, except a small quantity.


Frank Oliver: I said a little while ago that I should be glad to see elevator capacity provided at St. John, and wished the minister to go as far as he likes in establishing that capacity. But, of course, that is all contingent on the winter railway rate to St. John being on a basis that will enable the grain to be brought forward in winter. I made a little calculation some time ago on- this subject, and I find that the winter rate from Winnipeg to' Quebec was 12 cents for 1,352 miles. From Quebec to St. John, by the present route-that is by Transcontihental to Moncton and thence by Intercolonial to St. John-is 541 miles. At thfe same rate per mile as was charged from Winnipeg to Quebec, the rate would be 4i cents, or a total rate from Winnipeg to St. John of 16J cents. But the rate actually charged from Winnipeg to St. John this winter, whether by the Canadian Pacific railway through Montreal or by Transcontinental by Montreal or Quebec, was 201 cents. That just made the difference between a rate that would bring traffic and a rate that would stop traffic.


John Dowsley Reid: Did I understand the hon. member to say that grain from Winnipeg to St. John either by the Canadian Pacific or the Transcontinental would be 201 cents?


Frank Oliver: Yes. The rate from Quebec or Montreal to St. John was so much higher per mile than the rate from Winnipeg to Montreal, that it balanced up and made the through rate just the same as that of the Canadian Pacific. If that policy is continued next year, there is very little object in building the elevator, or certainly a

very small elevator would. answer the purpose. But my view is that the purpose of the building of the Transcontinental was to enable a winter movement of grain to the Atlantic ports to be carried on. What has been done this winter goes to prove that this is practicable; and it is in view of that that I am urging the construction of the elevator at St. John and that next winter a freight rate to St. John 'be charged that will be as good on a mileage 'basis as that given this winter from Winnipeg to Quebec. If that is not done, there is no great advantage in establishing any large elevator accommodation at St. John. The Quebec Board of Trade has gone1 into this matter very thoroughly, and amongst the figures they have given in their report is the statement that grain is now hauled from Goderich, a lake port, to Halifax, a distance of 1,231 miles, at 6 1-10 cents per bushel. That seems to be a low rate. If credence is given to their statement, then it is manifest that the through rate given on the Transcontinental is not phenomenally low, but one at which the railway ought to do business. If it was able to do business between Winnipeg and Quebec, it surely was able to do business between Winnipeg and St. John.
I wish to add a word to what the acting minister (Mr. Reid) said with regard to the storage at Quebec. While St. John is an open port all the year around, and while there is therefore some argument for there being only transfer accommodation there, Quebec is a sealed port for a part of the year. And it is beyond any question that Quebec has tremendous advantages in the summer time over any other possible port of Canada. And, as it is a substantially shorter distance from the prairies to Quebec by the Transcontinental than by any other present railroad route to Montreal, there is every reason why there should be ample storage accommodation at Quebec. So, while we desire the advantage of the open port at St. John during the whole of the winter, at the same time we shall always be very glad to save the cost of haul from Levis to St. John by taking advantage of the storage at Quebec, so that the grain may have to carry the least possible charge in getting to market. That is the whole purpose of this discussion, and of all this railroad building and elevator building-it is to cut down the cost of transport and handling between the producer and the consumer. With present world conditions, with the world crop increasing as it has been increasing, there is 
no doubt that from year to year it becomes more and more, necessary, if our production is to increase by reason of the prosperity of our people, that the cost of transport and handling and the profits received between the producer and consumer, must be systematically cut down by every means possible. That is the main duty and responsibility of the department of the Government over which my hon. friend presides, and that will be arrived at by the use of the Transcontinental and by the isubsidary accommodation of ample elevators at St. John and Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member is absolutely right; we should have more storage. But we can only provide it as we have the money voted to build elevators and to carry on that work, and we will do it as fast as we can. Anything that can be saved in the way of transportation or storage charges is saved to the farmer-no doubt about that. I go further, and I say I am heartily in accord with some arrangement -by nationalization of the railways if that [DOT]can be shown to be the most advantageous to get this railway system into such shape that we can operate the railways together and save a lot of money. Whatever you save, as I have said, is saved to the farmers of the West, and the people who have freight going over the railway system. Some people say that if the Government owned the railways so that there would be no looking for large dividends or profits, but operated them in the interests of the people, probably they could be operated at a great deal cheaper rate than at present. If that can be done	it will
certainly be a saving to the people who have products to transport. I look forward with a great deal of interest to the next session, when we shall be in a position to take up this great question -in fact, we must-and if a solution is arrived at, as I feel it will be, by taking over one or two of these systems, I believe that the cheaper transportation that probably will be got will have a great effect in the future so far as the development of the West is concerned. The question of increased accommodation at Quebec and at other ports will require consideration. The Montreal elevator has a capacity of 15,000,000 bushels, but that is a small quantity; Montreal will likely have to have increased accommodation. We should have large storage facilities at St. John and Halifax. At Portland and some of the other railway terminals the storage capacity is very large;

yet you could not get any grain through them this year; they were all filled to their utmost capacity. If the grain can be sent to Quebec and the elevators filled, there will be a saving of four or five cents a bushel, the cost of shipping from Quebec to Halifax or St. John; and that will go right into the farmer's pocket. If the farmer wishes to ship hig grain to Quebec and hold it until the spring, he will get that advantage.


Mr. ROBB:: The intention of the Government in reducing all rail rates over the National Transcontinental railway to 6 cents a bushel to Montreal and Quebec for export no doubt was good. But notwithstanding all that the minister has said since his Estimates have been up, he has not convinced me-and I do not believe that there is any man in the trade that has been convinced-that it worked out to be of any particular advantage either to the shipper or to the farmer. I will tell th-: minister why. The great trouble last year was to get grain on wheels. Grain on wheels right through the season was worth a premium running from 3J cents to as high as 8 cents a bushel over the May price; consequently the exporters could see a good deal'better profit in buying the May option and waiting for the opening of navigation. The minister has laid a good deal of stress on the advantage which this arrangement gave and the amount of grain that was carried to Quebec and Montreal for export. Last year when navigation closed in the fall there was a considerable amount of grain in the elevators at Montreal. I have not the figures before me, but we do know from a statement brought down here that some of the New Zealand wheat put there last summer was still in the elevators at Montreal in the month of March. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for Edmonton, this special rate of 6 cents a bushel was good only going to Montreal or Quebec for export. If the grain was re-consigned from Montreal or Quebec to St. John or Halifax for export, the shippers had to go back to the regular rate enforced by the Canadian Pacific, Canadian Northern and Grand Trunk Railway Companies-and that rate was 23.3 cents per hundred pounds. Notwithstanding the enormous amount of grain that the minister claims was carried by the National Transcontinental, my statement is correct that this rate was of practically no value. A good deal of grain was carried, but I think we got practically the
full rate for it. It was probably more profitable to the country and to the railroad not to carry it at the cheap rate, but very little grain was carried on that cheap rate. A return brought down in the House told us, I think, that altogether there were 80 cars to one point and twenty to the other- something like that, more or less. I have here the statistics of the wheat in Canada, issued on April 3 by the Department of Trade and Commerce. It shows that the total quantity of wheat in the elevator at Quebec on that date was 99,000 bushels. No ships had come up to Quebec at that time, so that this was wheat which had been carried there during the winter; possibly some of the grain had been left over in the fall when navigation closed. There were 42,917 bushels of oats there and 5,000 bushels of barley. The total quantity of grain in the elevator in the city of Quebec on April 3 was 148,920 bushels. Remember that the elevator at the city of Quebec has a capacity of a million and a,half bushels; so that you can put a good deal of grain there yet before you require other elevators. The elevators at Montreal have a capacity of 15,000,000 bushels. How much grain do you think there was in Montreal on the third of April? The total quantity of all grain 9 p.m. in Montreal on that date was just a little over a million and a half bushels. These are official statements published by the Department of Trade and Commerce, I imagine they must be correct. There is some justification for the minister's statement that we require more storage capacity at West St. John, because we find that on that date there were at West St. John a total of 950,093 bushels of grain, of which 730,516 bushels were wheat. At Halifax on that date there were 36,685 bushels of grain. So we could carry a good deal of grain down to those ports before we should need to start building elevators. Instead of listening to the demands of local people who are anxious to see construction going on in their cities; instead of running the risk of repeating the mistake that was made at Calgary, where we put up a big elevator that is practically of no use as a transfer elevator because it is located out of the running belt of grain, it would be well for the department to think out some plan of establishing elevators where they are most needed and where they will earn some money. Elevators with a capacity of 15,000,000 bushels in which only a million and a half

bushels are stored are not earning very much money for the shareholders, the Government. There is a great demand upon the Government for money for the different railroads. I imagine they need money, but I do not think they need it so much for the extension of their lines as they do for rolling stock. It seems to me that if the Government were to figure on a plan of owning, say, 10,000 freight cars and of leasing them at reasonable rates to the railroads during the grain carrying season, that would be of more advantage to the western farmer just now than elevator capacity. He does not want elevator capacity unless he can get the grain out of the elevator. We know from the experience of the past winter that there are sections in the West where very little grain has yet been moved. Take the Gilbert Plains district; I am told that many farmers there have not been able to ship a carload. What this country requires is more freight cars and more power. That is what the railroads need, not more miles of railway or more elevators. I submit this to the consideration of the minister, without condemning too strongly this policy of greater elevator capacity. I think that there is an indication at West St. John that we need it. But certainly we must get more grain down to Montreal and Quebec before we start talking of building greater elevator capacity.


John Dowsley Reid: With all due respect to the hon. minister, we all have our own opinions as to the best way to improve this transportation system. The hon. member does not think it is good policy to have so many elevators where water navigation commences. My own opinion has always been that that is where we do require storage. Fort William and Port Arthur form the first water port, and surely we should there have as large storage capacity as possible. My own opinion is that if a farmer can load his grain in the winter on the car and get it right through to Quebec or Montreal at the same rate as it would cost for summer transportation through Port Arthur or Fort William, and have his grain stored at the seaboard instead of at Port Arthur, he would save the elevator charges on the grain at Fort Arthur. I think we should have large storage capacity at Port Arthur or at the head of the lakes, and also at Montreal, St. John and Halifax. As to the quantity of grain in Quebec and Montreal, the manager of the railways told me that they put one and a half million bushels of grain into the elevators at Quebec, and

between Quebec and Montreal they had eight million bushels from the West over the National Transcontinental railway. I asked Mr. Hayes, the general freight agent, and those were the figures he gave me. What became of it after that I am not in a position to say, and we could not ascertain until after navigation opened. For instance, we may have put five million or six million bushels into 'the elevators at Montreal. That may have gone on by the Canadian Pacific railway; the parties who owned the grain may have had it re-shipped to Portland over the Grand Trunk railroad, ot to St. John over the Canadian Pacific railroad. The hon. member states that there would be no advantage to the western farmer providing it had been reshipped from Montreal. My understanding of it is that if you shipped last winter over the Canadian Pacific railroad or the Canadian Northern railroad, or the Grand Trunk under the old through rates, the winter rate was, say, 6 cents from Winnipeg to Fort [DOT] William. Then I think it was 12 cents to Montreal, and then a certain amount, which I do not know, from Montreal to Portland over the Grand Trunk, the Canadian Pacific railroad rate from Montreal to St. John being the same. Taking the figures,
6 cents to Fort William and 12 cents to Montreal, and whatever the other rate was Montreal to Portland or St. John, the through rate from Winnipeg to Portland or St. John would be 18 cents plus the rate Montreal to the winter port. The advantage which the farmer in the West got was that he paid 6 cents from Winnipeg to Armstrong and 6 'cents to Montreal. If it was then shipped on to Portland or St. John he paid the pro rata rate from Montreal to Portland or St. John that through grain pays, and he thus had the advantage of the 6-oent rate against the 12-cent rate between Armstrong and Montreal, or between Fort William and Montreal. The farmers in the West, if they got the advantage of the 6-cent rate, paid only 12 cents a bushel from Winnipeg to Montreal and Quebec, as .against 18 cents if consigned to Montreal during the winter on the Canadian Pacific railroad. On our rate it was 6 cents to Armstrong and 6 cents to Montreal, or 12 cents against the rate I have stated. That is the advantage it was to the shipper.


James Alexander Robb: There is not much difference between the minister's view and mine on the storage capacity at the head o' the

Great Lakes. He will admit that we have immense storage capacity there now. It has been fairly well filled this year, but there has always been room for a little more. But to come back to the rate, I have told the minister how much grain there was, according to the statistics furnished by the Department of Trade and Commerce, in Montreal and in Quebec, on the 3rd of April. The minister himself gave an answer from his own department on the 1st of March, according to Hansard, giving the number of cars shipped on that rate from Armstrong to Montreal, at 20 cars and from Armstrong to Montreal and 80 cars to Quebec. That clears up that matter from the statistics and as furnished in the minister's own answer. Probably the minister is right as to the rate from Winnipeg to Fort William, but that is not the way to figure on grain. The rate from Brandon to Fort William or Armstrong is 14 cents a hundred pounds. Tariff C G 18 gives the rate as 6 cents from Armstrong to Montreal or Quebec for export. Then there is a notation re consigning:
If grain is loaded out for export by Halifax, N.S., St. John, N.B., Portland, Maine, or Boston, Mass., through rates from Armstrong, Ont., will be applied in accordance with Transcontinental railway tariff, No. (C.G. 12 and C.G. 13) and supplements thereof.
Here is C G 13, giving the rates from Armstrong to St. John and Halifay. That rate is 23.3 per 100 pounds on grain and grain products. Then the rate to Portland, Maine, is the same, 23.3 (No. 3-G 12). The minister can settle that question with his traffic department.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: I was not present when the minister answered an inquiry which I made a few days ago, but I have had an opportunity of seeing the telegram which he read to the House, and I find that it is neither full nor frank, and', besides, is misleading. The garden plot at Antigonish station was constructed I think last year, and although as rich alluvial soil can be got in and around Antigonish as is to be had in' any part of the Maritime Provinces, they actually went to Malagash station, between 100 and 150 miles distant, to get loam to make that plot. According tb the telegram, after they had unloaded four cars, it was found that two cars were sufficient, and they sent the balance of the stuff down to Mulgrave. Here is where the information is misleading: My information is that after the plot was completed the yard was so overcrowded that businessmen protested because of the obstruction to traffic, and that, consequently, they reduced it by about half. What I want to find out is what it cost to make the reduction. What became of the loam that was taken from Malagash when there was excellent soil right on the spot? Was it given to some friend to 'be taken away at his own expense,. or was it given to him at a price? Did he cart it away free of charge or was the carting paid for? It is notorious that teams carried that stuff through the town. I want to find out from the minister where it went, and what the arrangement was, whether this man was paid for trucking that stuff from the station and through the town, and, if so, how much he was paid. Therefore I would like the minister to supplement the information given in that telegram. I received a copy of it from his secretary and sent a reply suggesting that this information should be given. Perhaps the minister can give it now.


John Dowsley Reid: I told my secretary to see
that the information was given to the hon. member. It does seem strange that they should go 100 miles away for loam, but I am a farmer myself, and I know that sometimes it is good policy to have a change of soil; if you took some soil from Ontario and mix it with Nova Scotia soil, you might have better crops.


William Chisholm: We have the best of crops in Antigonish.


John Dowsley Reid: I know that some farmers in Ontario get soil from Nova Scotia, and very good stuff it is. I get carload after carload of it, and I think that next time I will urge the manager to send to Ontario for soil and have it mixed) with the Nova Scotia soil. I will be very glad to get the information which the hon. member wants. He can see that I did my best to get it, but if they have not furnished it in full, I will get it at the earliest possible moment.


William Chisholm: I thank the minister for the efforts he has made to secure the information. But the case referred to is on a par with a good deal of the work that these highly trained specialists, who have been hired, borrowed, or imported from the Canadian Pacific railway and other railroads, have been doing on the Intercolonial railway. Just fancy going 100 or 150 miles to get loam for a place like Antigonish where there is alluvial -soil of the richest kind. The minister has treated the matter

in a rather joking vein, and I do not wonder at it. The thing is ridiculous. It is a small matter, and I apologize for bringing it up, but it is a sample of the way in which those connected with the Intercolonial railway do things.


Frank Oliver: We have had a good deal of argument about the transportation of wheat last winter at the low rate. I understood very distinctly from the minister that that rate was for the purpose of filling the elevators, of utilizing the storage capacity of the elevators at Montreal and Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: That is right.


Frank Oliver: But by the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, that statement is not borne out, so< far as the Quebec elevator is concerned. We will assume that the grain delivered at the Montreal elevator was passed' on to Portland or St. John by the other road, but, so far as the Quebec elevator is concerned, there was no such opportunity. Grain was certainly not forwarded from Quebec to St. John or from Halifax, because the Halifax elevator was not filled; therefore it could not have been put into the Quebec elevator. As long as there was vacant space in Quebec, and there was grain in the West to bring forward, the Transcontinental railway was not fulfilling its purpose, nor was the rate being utilized.


John Dowsley Reid: All I can say is that I had the assurance of our general freight agent that that quantity of grain was put into the Quebec elevator and came over the Transcontinental railway during the past winter. The statement submitted by the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) is headed: " The total quantity in store on March 24, 1916." Whether or not the grain came after that date, or whether it went in and was shipped on again, is a question regarding which I have not information at present. I shall get the general freight agent to give me in writing a statement of the quantity of grain which went in, and I will give the hon. member for Edmonton the information. I will either show him that 1,500,000 bushels-it might have been a little more or less-went from Quebec, or I will stand up here and admit that I was wrong. But I got that information from him only ten days ago in this very building, and of course I must adhere to it. I will be able tto give my hon. friend fuller information, I hope, within the next 48 hours. I will have the exact figures for Montreal and Quebec and the dates on which the grain

was put in. From the close of navigation up to a few days ago, eight million bushels went into the Montreal and Quebec elevators.


Frank Oliver: The hon. member for
Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) suggested that if this railroad was to meet the purposes for which it was intended, there would have to be more rolling stock provided. I am not familiar with the workings of the Department of Railways, but, from what the minister has said during the discussions in the House, it would seem to me that it is a fact, that there is not sufficient rolling stock in the hands of the Government to handle a large amount of traffic over the Transcontinental. Is it proposed by the department to take measures to increase that rolling stock adequately so as to be able to bring forward a large quantity of grain during the winter months, .and to what extent?


John Dowsley Reid: I am going to award contracts for cars within the next three or four weeks; probably $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 worth will be ordered1.


Frank Oliver: Is there anything for that in the Estimates?


John Dowsley Reid: We have a part of the money in the Estimates and we have our Intercolonial surplus. The hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) is right; if we had 10,000 cars and 200 engines it would be a great advantage but 10,000 cars would cost $10,000,000 or $12,000,000. These iron freight cars cost $1,200 or $1,400 each. They used [DOT]to cost about $1,100 but they are now . worth, I expect, $200 or $300 more. We cannot buy $10,000,000 or $12,000,000 worth of care j.ust now. You require power, vans and a lot of equipment. We will get these things as fast as we can. With reference to the rate question, as I stated during a previous discussion, we only started in last year as an experiment with this Transcontinental railway, we started in without equipment, without organization and just to get a little experience, we put on this 6-oent rate and handled 8,000,000 bushels of grain with such equipment as we had divided between the two roads-. We expect to have sufficient equipment to enable us to handle a very large quantity of grain next winter. With good organization and extra equipment we will be of great service to the West next year.


Charles Marcil: With the acquisition of the Forget road, and the opening of a

*winter port at St. Catharine's bay, will not the conditions be entirely changed at St. John and Halifax?


John Dowsley Reid: There ie work for all our winter ports.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Where is Ste. Catherine's bay?


John Dowsley Reid: Across the Saguenay river from Tadousac there is a large bay and a splendid harbour. This road was first intended to go to Ste. Catherine's bay. Murray bay is within 30 or 40 miles of Ste. Catherine's bay.


Charles Marcil: Will the port at Ste. Catherine's bay be open in the winter?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, they tell me that it is open nearly all winter.


Charles Marcil: Is that an official report?


John Dowsley Reid: I understand that to be so,
but I will see if there is any official report.


Charles Marcil: Our friends from the
West and from the Maritime Provinces who take an interest in this grain question might very well be informed in regard to this because conditions may be entirely changed. If we can regard Ste. Catherine's bay as the open winter port of the St. Lawrence the other ports in the Maritime Provinces may look very small. There is no rolling stock at all on the Quebec and Saguenay railway at the present time?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know that there is, but there is on some other part of the road. The hon. gentleman talks about the Quebec and Saguenay railway! He knows to-day that from Quebec to Saguenay there were the electric and steamboat services which are really part of the system.


Charles Marcil: The electric road running between Quebec and Ste. Anne de Beaupre does a very large business in carrying pilgrims to the shrine at Ste Anne, but beyond that I do not think there is much business.


William Pugsley: Then there will be pilgrimages to St. Catherine's bay. I would like to divert the Minister's attention from what must be an unpleasant situation to one which will give him more joy. I was told recently by a gentleman who lives in Chipman that every day there are long trains of cars full of freight passing over the Transcontinental railway that it is no uncommon thing to see one locomotive hauling a train half a mile long over this level
road bed. I want to ask the minister if he has any report with regard to the traffic which is being carried on that line and where that traffic originates?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not that information but the hon. gentleman knows that both of these roads belong now to the Government and they will be operated by the Government. It is only natural that we should operate them in the very best way possible for the Government. If we could haul 50 cars between Levis and St. John over the Transcontinental railway we would not start a train over the Intercolonial with 25 or 30 cars if that was all we could take.


William Pugsley: That shows the advantage of the Transcontinental railway grades.


John Dowsley Reid: I know, but at the same time it has cost us a great many millions to build that road. I do not want to go into a discussion of the Transcontinental railway system to-night. We have done it very often before, and I do not think there is anything to be gained by it. That road was built to run in opposition to the Intercolonial. Now that we own it, we intend to operate the two roads as a business proposition, and if we have a lot of cars at LAvis to take to St. John or Moncton, or, if you wish, to Halifax, we are going to take them with engines that will draw all the cars possible, and operate the roads in the best possible manner.


William Pugsley: The minister says that we "own" it. That affords a text for some quite lengthy remarks. When did we secure the ownership of it? Some time ago I asked the right hon. Prime Minister if any permanent arrangement had been made for the Government operation of the Transcontinental railway, and he said: No permanent arrangement could be made except by legislation and the action of Parliament. No such legislation has yet been introduced. Therefore, I would like to know why the minister, in contradistinction to the statement of the Prime Minister, says that we own the Transcontinental.


John Dowsley Reid: I will tell the hon. gentleman why I think we own it. I was under the impression that according to the Act passed the Government had built that portion of the road between Winnipeg and Moncton and owned it, and that we were to lease it to the Grand Trunk Pacific. So, I say we own it, and I think I am not mistaken in that. Am I not right in the statement that we were to build, own and lease

it for a certain number of years, and that the Grand Trunk were to pay interest upon it? That is the reason I say that we own it.


William Pugsley: The minister said that it was built as a road which was to be run in competition with the Intercolonial railway?


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly.


William Pugsley: But the minister says now that we own it, as if something had taken place which had taken away the right of the Grand Trunk Pacific to operate it and placed the ownership in the Crown.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman is drawing a pretty fine distinction. I did say that it was .built to be run in competition with the Intercolonial railway. The original proposition was that the Government should build, own and lease it to the Grand Trunk Pacific.


William Pugsley: But did not the minister say now that we owned it, as if there had been some change in the ownership? ,


John Dowsley Reid: There is no change in the ownership. We are operating it, if you wish to draw that fine distinction. However, we are operating it and we will no doubt do so to the advantage of the public. But this afternoon I noticed that the hon. gentleman was criticising the Government and asking why they should not take over the Grand Trunk Pacific at once and operate it. He found fault because we would not take over and operate the whole line between Winnipeg and the Pacific coast. Now he is finding fault beoause we did take over t'he Transcontinental.


William Pugsley: Is the minister referring to me?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


William Pugsley: When did I .so argue?


John Dowsley Reid: I understood that to-day my hon. friend's argument was that we should take over these roads beoause they were bankrupt; that giving money to them was not in the public interest.


William Pugsley: What I said was that, as these companies are now coming to the Government and are saying in effect: We are bankrupt; we cannot carry on the operation of these roads any ionger, unless you assist us, and as the Government, according to the .statements of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Works are looking forward to the nationalization of the railways of Canada, they ought now, as a condition of giving this assistance,
[Mr. J. D. Reid.l
to stipulate for a maximum price at which the country would have in the future the right to take over the roads. In other words, this country should not help them over this period of adversity and then put them in a position, when the time of prosperity comes, to demand what they please for the roads, including prospective profits, which might amount to a very large sum.


John Dowsley Reid: At all events, the discussion to-day would surely convince the hon. member that the Grand Trunk Pacific is not in a position to operate this road between Winnipeg and Montreal.


William Pugsley: Not immediately.


John Dowsley Reid: And that is the reason why the Government is operating it. We believe that next session, when we have a report as to the whole railway situation, there can be a reorganization of the railway system of Canada that will be a great advantage to every one concerned. As the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance stated to-day, something must be done. It will be only six or eight months until we meet again, and .then we shall be in a position to go thoroughly into the whole railway system and see what is best to be done under the circumstances in the interest of the public.


George Perry Graham: Are you going to have a fall session?


John Dowsley Reid: That may be necessary.


Arthur Bliss Copp: As the minister has been
discussing the matter of providing more equipment during the coming summer for the operation of the Transcontinental and the Intercolonial railway, I want again to protest as strongly as I can to the minister againstr the Government robbing the Intercolonial of its rolling stock, and curtailing the freight and passenger service of the Maritime Provinces over the Intercolonial, and in this way destroying the Intercolonial for the benefit of the Transcontinental. That is what happened last winter. As I pointed out to the minister the other evening, the Intercolonial was made simply a local road in so far as through traffic was concerned. Traffic was held up; passenger trains running from Montreal to Halifax were delayed five, six or ten hours simply because the rolling stock of the Intercolonial was taken away and placed on the Transcontinental for the purpose of keeping that road in operation. That was inequitable and

unfair to the people of the Maritime Provinces for whose service the Intercolonial railway was really built. My hon. friend said that he proposed to buy three or four million dollars' woTth of rolling stock apparently for the Transcontinental and the Intercolonial, and he stated that there was not enough in the Estimates, hut that he was going to take the surplus from the Intercolonial and put it into rolling stock.


John Dowsley Reid: I did not say that; I said
that some was going to be taken from the surplus of the Intercolonial and that that would be put on the Government railway system. I do not think the hon. member will object to rolling stock being run through from Levis to Moncton. We will operate the stock on both roads. In addition to that surplus an amount has been placed in the Estimates for the Transcontinental. I said we were going to take the money from both the surplus and the Estimates, but it has alfvays been the policy to use any surplus there may he on the Intercolonial for purchasing rolling stock for the Intercolonial. The hon. member has argued before that it was not right to take any part of the Intercolonial equipment last year. We could not get any equipment from any otheT railway; the Grand Trunk Pacific was to have some rolling stock for the Transcontinenal, but we did not get a car, and if we had not used a small portion of the Intercolonial rolling stock for the Transcontinental, we could not have operated it at all. I do not think the hon. member will say that we should have closed up the Transcontinental and not operated it at all between Winnipeg and Moncton during last winter. There were settlements along the line, and it was necessary to have some passenger traffic. There had to be cars and engines for that and supplies had also to be taken in and out. There was also this grain in the West that had to be carried out. Some people along the Intercolonial were inconvenienced, but there would have been much more hardship if we had had to close up the Transcontinental. We did our best to get what equipment we could, but we did not get it in time.
Mr. iCOFP: I do not intend to argue at length in regard to the conditions of last winter, because it is past and gone. Things are better now; the snow has disappeared, and the freight is going through much more rapidly. I rose, however, to enter my protest on behalf of the people of the Maritime Provinces in the future. My hon. friend says he would not think I would say that we should not operate the Transcontinental. I am not in a position to say that we should operate the Transcontinental or not. It is only a few years ago that those settlements spoken of by the acting minister, along the Transcontinental, have had railway accommodation. The people of the Maritime Provinces have had the Intercolonial ever since Confederation, and I contend1 that the minister had no right to rob the Intercolonial and sacrifice the rights of the people who are served by that railway for the benefit of the people who live along the Transcontinental. I want to put myself on record as protesting in the strongest manner possible that during the coming summer and the coming winter the Intercolonial should have proper rolling stock as it has had in the past and not have it depleted, as it was during the past winter, for the benefit of the Transcontinental. Whatever surplus has been laid aside from the Intercolonial should be expended on the betterment of that railway, both in roadbed and equipment, in order to give that railway its proper status as the railway which has served the people of the Maritime Provinces since Confederation, and I say that its interests should not be sacrified to those of- any other great transcontinental railway.


Frank Oliver: What the minister has
said in regard to the provision of rolling stock is rather of the character that he is going to strain a point in order to get some rolling stock for the Transcontinental. The Transcontinental has cost the country something like $200,000,000 to build, and that capital expenditure is of no value unless there is rolling stock to handle the business over the road. There was business this year to be handled if we had had the rolling stock. Unfortunately we may not have as much business next year because we have not been able to handle the business this year.
The question should be approached, not in any parsimonious spirit, but in the spirit of meeting the conditions of traffic as they exist and may be expected to exist some time in the near future. Of last season's crop, something like sixty or seventy million bushels found its outlet by way of Buffalo. Of this year's crop 125,000,000 bushels remain in the West,, still to come forward; and if it comes forward at all, it will come by the lakes, and the larger part of that

crop will find its way out by Buffalo. We are producing the crop and it is the United Kingdom that needs it; and we have built railroads at enormous cost to do this very traffic; yet we allowed the traffic to pass away from us both last year and this year. We are continually talking of not having business for our railroads, but this year we not only have business but an enormous amount of business which has gone away from us simply because we were not prepared to handle it. What I urge is that means be taken to utilize the transportation facilities of the Transcontinental railway by ample elevator capacity at the winter port of St. John and at the summer port of Quebec, and by ample rolling stock to bring the crop forward all the year around so that we shall not be in the position in the future of carrying on the production and other people doing the business.
It has been generally assumed that because the grain has come forward by the lakes up to the present time, it must always come forward by the lakes. There is no ground for that supposition. When the Erie canal was built all grain from the West went by the Erie canal; but to-day the amount that goes by the Erie canal is little; the railways having displaced the water transportation to a tremendous degree. The Great Lakes, of course, are on a larger scale than lake Ontario or the St. Lawrence, or our canals; but the position of the Transcontinental from Winnipeg to Quebec is one of vast advantage. I do not see that there is any reason why the conditions which prevailed in regard to water traffic on lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence canals, in which the traffic has practically been driven off the lake, should not be repeated as between the Transcontinental and Canadian Northern on one hand and the navigation of the Groat Lakes on the other. Of course, having built the railroads, we must equip them with rolling stock and other facilities. But let us not sit down and complain that we have not the business to do when the city of Buffalo and the American business of transportation on the Great Lakes is being built up out of the business that we create.


William Stewart Loggie: I wish to refer to a matter not relevant to that which has been discussed, but which, I understand, comes within the minister's announcement of *willingness to discuss any matter relating to has department. The question is that of deep water facilities at Newcastle, N.B. A

survey was made and a proposition to extend the wharf. Nothing further has been done. When I was at home I found some of my constituents making inquiry about the matter, and I promised to 'have it brought to the attention of the minister.


John Dowsley Reid: I will place on Hansard or give to the hon. gentleman, when we are discussing some other railway item, a full explanation of that matter.


James Alexander Robb: Now that the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) has shown that what we require is more rolling stock for the railway, which is the idea that I have urged, I wonder if we could not go a little further and let that Hudson bay scheme lie over for a year or two, and put the money into ships to carry grain from Atlantic ports to Liverpool. It is of little use to bring grain to deep water if you have not ships to carry it to the other side. Would not the minister think it well to take some of this money that some of us think is being wasted in the Hudson bay scheme and put it into ships?


John Dowsley Reid: Personally, I have strong opinions on the question of ships. To buy new ships is impossible at the present time
there are none for sale. And if you start to build a new ship now you will not get it for a year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This is a good
time to commence.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, but you have to consider that the cost of a ship in normal times is about $50 a ton, while now it is $120 per ton. A vessel of 10,000 tons would cost you in normal times $500,000, but today the cost would be $1,200,000, and you would not have the use of it for a year. If the war was going to last two or three years it would be a good idea to order ships and have tnem for the year's operations. Under present conditions, ii you were to pay $1,200,000 to have delivered to you in a year's time a vessel which, under ordinary conditions, would cost $500,uuO, the investment mignt not be a very good one. I am strongly in favour of building vessels in our own country; but whether we build them in our own country or not you cannot get them at less, roughly speaking, than $120 a ton. These are tne figures I have had given to me in discussing this subject with shipbuilders. I have in mind the case of a man who has in course of construction a 10,000-ton vessel which he expects to be finished in July; and he tells

me that he can get just double his contract'' price for the vessel, but he could not get another, probably, for more than twice as much as the contract. These are things to be taken into consideration. My idea is that if we had normal conditions we ought a^ once to start shipbuilding in our own country. We are a growing country and we require vessels to take our own products from our own ocean terminals to foreign countries; and by doing that and connecting with our own railway service we caD greatly increase our trade.
We are facing these difficulties now, and in view of the conditions it is hard to tell what is really the best thing to be done. This consideration, together with the great expenditures for war, makes us hesitate to engage in such work as is suggested by the hon. member. The hon. member is absolutely right; we should have these vessels and run them in connection with our railways. But the hon. member is a business man, and he can see why we should hesitate to give an order for a vessel which in these times would cost $1,200,000 and in normal times $500,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will not the prices be equally high for a period of five years after the war?


John Dowsley Reid: There is a difference of opinion on that. Some men say that they will be higher than they were in normal times, because so. many vessels are being destroyed. Others say that there will he a very large drop in the price for the reason that a large number of vessels are interned at the present time, and a very large number of vessels are being used by different nations for their own purposes of transport. These will all again come into the mercantile trade, and that will tend to bring freights down and reduce the cost of building vessels. I have seen no one yet who will make the statement that as soon as the war is over the cost of building vessels will keep up to what it is at the present time. I think the drop will be very considerable.


James Alexander Robb: It is very satisfactory that the minister endorses that idea. If I understand him rightly, he claims that under normal conditions after the war we could build three ships for the price of one that we could build now. The extra expenses would be in the matter of labour and iron, I imagine?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


James Alexander Robb: Would not the same principle apply to the Hudson Bay railway? Would it not be just as well to delay that work until after the war, when labour and iron will be cheaper?


John Dowsley Reid: No, because the Hudson Bay railway is under contract. Of course, we are holding it down; we are not doing nearly the amount of work we should do in normal times. We are holding it down as much as we can without rendering ourselves liable to the contractors for damages for shutting down the work.


George Perry Graham: That steamship that you are buying, is it by contract?


John Dowsley Reid: It is the Northumberland, that ran on that route a great many years. A company owned the Northumberland and the Empress, the former running between Summerside and Point du Chene and the latter between Pictou and Charlottetown.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is the Government going to run that boat now between Point du Chene and Summerside?


John Dowsley Reid: The company have sold their boats. They sold the Empress to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and we bought the Northumberland. We are running the Northumberland between Point du Chene and Summerside, and we are running the car ferry between Pictou and Charlottetown.


Arthur Bliss Copp: All the communication, then, between the island and the mainland is being carried on by the Government?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.
Canals-bridge between Iberville and St. John-revote of lapsed amount, $52,000.


John Dowsley Reid: An item was put in the Estimates in 1911-12 for $40,000, and an additional amount was put in the Supplementary Estimates for 1911-12 for $12,000, making $52,000. An arrangement was made between the Government and the municipalities at that time to build a bridge across the canal, and the municipalities entered into a contract under which four-tenths of the cost was to be paid by the Government, not to exceed $52,000. The amount was dropped from the Estimates by the Minister of Railways and Canals, for the reason that nothing was done by the municipalities. The Minister of Railways promised that if they carried out their part of the agreement and built the bridge he would again

. put the amount in the Estimates.
10 p.m. When the minister was absent I made the same promise. The bridge has been constructed, and we are asked to carry out our agreement. Therefore, I have put this amount, which I thiijk we are entitled to pay, back in the Estimates.


George Perry Graham: This arrangement is a
good one, because I made it myself.


John Dowsley Reid: Did I explain it correctly?
Mr, GRAHAM:	Nearly. The arrangement was that the Provincial Government was to pay a certain amount, the municipalities a certain amount, and this Government, on account of the canal and approaches, a certain amount. There was a good deal of disappointment when this item was dropped out of the Estimates, and I am glad to see it in again.
Galops canals-in full settlement of all outstanding claims of contractors, Murray and Cleveland, in connection with the construction of the upper entrance, $20,028.25.


John Dowsley Reid: There were two contracts in connection with this, one with Murray and Cleveland for fouilding the locks and the upper entrance to the canal, and another after that with M. A. Cleveland for building what is known as the North Channel. Murray died a few years ago, and M. A. Cleveland died a couple of years ago. They are all dead but one man, Stephen.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has nobody living had anything to do with this?


John Dowsley Reid: The estates have been trying to have this matter settled. Stephen Cleveland has had the matter up with the Minister of Railways, with a view to having it settled. This item is in connection with the Murray and Cleveland contract for the Galops canal They put ,in a claim on thirteen different items, aggregating 1117,961.29. The chief engineer allowed a little on each of four items. On item No. 1, for deepening the prism of the canal below the depth specified, for which they claimed 840,917, he allowed $10,760. He allowed item No. 10, for $85,343 for delay to dredging plant caused by navigation going down passing over work. Item No. 11, for additional painting of lock gates, $1,525 he allowed. He also allowed item 11, for fitting, erecting, constructing, and cutting checks for keys of lock gates, $3,480.


George Perry Graham: Any interest?


John Dowsley Reid: No interest at all. Mr. Bowden recommended that this amount be allowed. That goes to the Murray estate. The other claim was for $284,894. On this the Minister of Railways made an offer of $48,955.31, on the recommendation of Chief Engineer Bowden.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: When was that offer made?


John Dowsley Reid: Last fall, before the minister went away.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did any former Minister of Railways, during the last 15, or 20, or 30 years, decline to pay this, or were negotiations proceeding all the time and coming to nothing?


John Dowsley Reid: I am quite satisfied that they have been up before different ministers, probably before the hon. member for Renfrew among others. The claims amounted to $284,894, and the Minister of Railways, after going over, these different items, allowed portions of some of them. On item No. 2, which was for $72,813, additional price for re-excavating stuff for gut dam and elsewhere on account of excavation of prism having been finished before other works, he allowed $18,277. The ground they took was that they were supposed to exca vate this lock, to take it up and convey at down and place it on the dam between Adam's island and the Big island.


George Perry Graham: That is the north channel?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, taking it out of the north channel and putting it on the dam at the head of the Galops rapids. But they were not ready for it at the Galops rapids, and they had to put it on the island, and that was re-handling. He allowed one other item. They claimed $91,240 extra for excavation at 27 station plus 50, on account of material proving harder than anticipated in original location, and having to be drilled and blasted, and he allowed $30,678.


George Perry Graham: That brings up the question of classification.''


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister been in negotiation with Gilbert for settlement of his claim?


John Dowsley Reid: I never heard of the Gilbert claim until the other day. The claim has been pressed for many years. I was always of the opinion, and I take the ground .to-day, that those parties had not a fair claim, for the reason that according to the original

contract they were to be paid a certain amount for going down so many feet. Then there was a dispute and they were paid ior having to do what, in my opinion, they had been paid for originally. They were paid for going down 100 or 200 feet below the grade required for going through that channel, and now they put in another claim for going down still farther. I always took the ground with every minister that they had no good claim, and I am on record in this House as saying that. I understand they have applied for a fiat and are going to take it to the Exchequer Court.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I wish to bring to the attention of the minister a matter which I placed before the Minister of Public Works, the other evening, that is the connecting of the Intercolonial by a spur line with a public wharf at Sackville. In 1910, or thereabouts, a new wharf was constructed at Sackville. After the engineers had made careful investigation and examination, and after conference with a number of sea captains who were operating vessels between St. John and Boston and elsewhere from that port, it was decided that it was in the interests of the town of Sackville to build the new wharf 300 or 400 yards lower down	the river than
the present old wharf which was absolutely dilapidated and fallen to pieces. The reason for that particularly is that at the site of the new wharf there was a very sharp bend in the river, and as the river is a tidal water, vessels leaving the wharf, and going out on a heavy tide found it difficult to go	down the river
and round the bend without running aground on the opposite side. By placing the new wharf at the point where it is constructed, that condition of affairs was overcome as vessels leaving the neiw wharf would get a straight run out of the river. I do not know what the custom is in regard to these matters, as between different departments of the Government, but it is natural to suppose that when the Public Works Department undertook to build that new wharf they expected the Railway Department to connect it with the main line of the Intercolonial railway, as the old wharf was connected with it. The new wharf was built at a cost of upwards of $40,000. It was begun in 1910, I think, and completed in 1912, and from that time till now it has not been of one cent's advantage to the people of that portion of the county of Westmorland. Not one vessel, so far as I know, has tied up to it and
none will be tied up unless there is railway accommodation provided. I drew the attention of the Minister of Railways last year to this condition and he promised consideration. It is a small matter to be sure, but nevertheless Sackville is a town which we think is of some importance, and, in years gone by/ before the old wharf went into decay, a large number of schooners, small-sized vessels, and barques even came up the river, received and discharged their cargoes at the port of Sackville. Now that the old wharf has gone, there is practically no shipping at that port and the larger schooners refuse to tie up at the old wharf. The people in the locality cannot get their freight coming to Sackville except by a wagon road.
The Deputy Minister of Public Works kindly drew the attention of the Deputy Minister of Railways and Canals to the matter, after the discussion we had in the House the other evening, and he has sent me a copy of a letter which is as follows:
Wednesday, May 3rd, 1916.
Dear Sir,-I beg to acknowledge receipt of your communication of the 29th ultimo, enclosing an excerpt from Hansard of the 27th ultimo, containing some remarks concerning an application for a railway siding to connect with the public works wharf at Sackville.
In reply, I beg to say that some years ago a wharf was built on the northeast side of the harbour of Sackville by the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway, and that the Intercolonial railway has a connection with this wharf. It appears that four or five years ago your department built a wharf on the opposite side of the bay-
He is wrong about that; it is not on the opposite side, hut further down.

and made no provision for railway connection with it. In 1913, a petition from the citizens of Sackville was sent to this department by the Sackville Board of Trade asking that rail connections be made with the new wharf. The matter was submitted to the Intercolonial officials, and a report was submitted showing the propositions for such a connection, one at an estimated cost of $10,949, and a second one at an estimated cost of $12,611.20. General Superintendent Brady-
Mr. Brady was on the Board of Management of the Intercolonial railway.
-reporting on the matter statedThere is already a wharf track from our yard to the old wharf at Sackville and we cannot see where we are going to get one cent of additional earnings by spending the above-named amount of money.
This is the particular part to which I would call the minister's attention.
In fact, we can see where we are going to lose earnings, particularly from freight received from the Cape Tormentine line, which

now haul to Dorchester wharf, which we will not haul dt all as it will be delivered to the new wharf at Sackville and we will not get one cent of earnings out of it.
The whole subject was brought before the minister and he expressed the opinion that in. asmuch as the railway had already provided rail connection with an existing wharf at Sackville, he did not think the Intercolonial railway should be called upon to make, such a further expenditure of $10,000 or $12,000.
The minister will notice that Mr. Brady's idea was that in shipping lumber and other products coming over the Cape Tormentine line for export, the Intercolonial railway was going to make some money by hauling them past Sackville to Dorchester, and the .people would pay the extra freight. The idea was to force the shippers to pay for hauling the freight 15 miles further. Without arguing the question .at any length, because I think the minister understands the situation, it seems to me an absolutely absurd proposition that the Government of the country, after building a wharf at a cost of $40,000 to accommodate the people of Sackville, should refuse to make any connection between the main line of railway .and that wharf. The only reason given is that on .account of having no railway connection there the shippers will have to pay for carrying the freight 15 miles further, thus enabling the Intercolonial railway to make more money at the expense of the people who should have an opportunity of using the wharf at Sackville. The proposition seems so absurd that it should not require any argument. If the Railway Department does not take up this matter and build a spur line to the wharf, which is only a short distance away,, the $40,000 expended on the wharf, might as well have been used in building a wharf in the woods between Sackville and Dorchester. Under present conditions, the wharf is not worth one cent to the people of Sackville. It is all very well to be economical, but I am afraid that Mr. Brady, in his dealings with the Intercolonial railway, was not so careful in the expenditure of public money in other directions. The expenditure called for is very small, and I can assure the acting minister that it would be of great advantage to the people of that locality. I would like to have from the minister an assurance that he will take the matter up, and see that a connection is made between the wharf and the main line.


John Dowsley Reid: This is the first I have heard of this matter, but I will take it up with the
[Mr. Copd.I
management and see if there is any possibility of getting the connection.


Mr. DESCARRIES:: I would draw the
acting minister's attention to a demand on the part of the citizens of Lachine in my constituency, to get rid of the nuisance caused by the whistles of vessels going down lake St. Louis to Lachine lock. During the night the vessels pass along the front of the city of Lachine, and each vessel gives four blasts, and as the vessels now are very big, they have big whistles. During the silence of the night, when every citizen has a right to take his rest without being disturbed by anything of an annoying character, suddenly we hear that big noise, and if it so happens that there is a baby, a woman or any other person sick, it is very trying and all are bothered by it. I have very often been asked if it is possible to devise some means to give a signal to the men attending the locks instead of using the whistle. I call the minister's attention to it, and I hope he will be good enough to study the question and if possible grant the request of the citizens of Lachine. While passing through that part of the Lachine canal which is within the limits of Montreal, these vessels do not sound their whistles. Why should not the same consideration be shown for Lachine, which is a city of great importance now, in order that the citizens may be for ever rid of that annoyance?


John Dowsley Reid: This was brought to my attention the other evening by an hon. member from Montreal, and the same thing applies to Lachine. I will take it up with the officials and ask them to communicate with the officers of the Lachine canal and see if something cannot be done. I will find out what has been done, and I will let my hon. friend know. I understand that this is quite a nuisance, and I will see if something cannot be done to improve the situation. If so it will be done.


Joseph-Adélard Descarries: There is a big dam at the head of the Lachine canal, and if necessary a man could be placed at the dam with a telephone to give the signal to those attending the locks.


John Dowsley Reid: That is a good suggestion.
Public Works-chargeable to capital-public buildings-Ottawa Eastern Departmental Block -new fireproof roof, etc., $240,000.


George Perry Graham: Has the contract been let for that?


Robert Rogers: No. This is for a new roof for the East Block. The roof is not

fireproof, and we felt the need of a fireproof roof when the fire in the main buildings took place. It is regarded by the *officers as being essential.


George Perry Graham: Will that put the roof [DOT]on the building?


Robert Rogers: That will put the roof on.
Mr. A. A'. McLEAN: Is the rest of the building fireproof?


Robert Rogers: Partly so, but it is not as good as it should be.


Mr. NESBITT:: What is the matter with the present roof?


Robert Rogers: It is not fireproof at all.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is not much use putting a fireproof top on a match. The building itself is not fireproof.


Robert Rogers: The main building is
fairly fireproof. That part built recently is fireproof.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is not much use spending money putting a fireproof roof on a building that is not fireproof.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN:: It would be worth
the miniser'e while to consult with his officers, I think. It does not sound very logical to put a fireproof roof on a building that ie not fireproof.


Robert Rogers: I brought the same point up when the matter was presented the other day with the deputy, but he convinced me that it was the proper thing to do.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: If the roof is sound there is no possible object in putting a fireproof roof on it. The only object would be in case of fire close by, to guard against the danger from cinders, but I hope that we are not going to have another fire.


Robert Rogers: We will give it very careful consideration before we decide to spend the money. It has not been decided to spend it yet.
Ottawa Parliament building-restoration-the plans for the said building and the method to be adopted for securing the reconstruction thereof to be subject to the approval of the joint committee appointed by the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition, $1,500,000.


George Perry Graham: That committee has been appointed?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


George Perry Graham: Who compose it?


Robert Rogers: The Hon. Dr. Reid, the Hon. Mr. Hazen, the Hon. Mr. Blondin, the Hon. Senator Lougheed, the Hon. Mr. Pugsley, the Hon. Mr. Lemieux, the Hon. Mr. Murphy, and the Hon. Senator Watson. They have held one meeting already, and they are to hold another meeting tomorrow night.


George Perry Graham: You are on it too?


Robert Rogers: I am on it.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You are the committee?


Robert Rogers: I am a member of it.


George Perry Graham: This committee is associated with the minister and the work is to be carried on as it agrees?


Robert Rogers: That is right.


George Perry Graham: As to whether it will be let by contract and to whom it will be let?


Robert Rogers: That is right.
Harbours and rivers-Vancouver harbour improvements-further amount required, $200,000.


George Perry Graham: Is that under contract?


Robert Rogers: Yes, that is to finish the False creek work.
Public Works-chargeable to income-public buildings-New Brunswick-West St. John- medical inspection building, site, $2,000.


George Perry Graham: Is that for immigration purposes?


Robert Rogers: This is to make provision for the purchase of a site at West St. John for the erection of a medibal inspection building for the Immigration Department. This property is bounded by Clarence, Lancaster and Sutton streets, and comprises ten lots of land. It is reported as being especially cheap.
Ontario-Cayuga public building, heating and plumbing improvements, $3,500.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is that a new building?


Robert Rogers: This is an old building which is being fitted up with plumbing.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is it used for?


Robert Rogers: Public building, postoffice, and so on.
Kingston-Royal Military College-covered drill hall-further amount required, $55,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this a new
building?


Robert Rogers: This is a new building
that the Militia Department are pressing for and that is very necessary at Kingston


REVISED
[Stage Direction]
in connection with, the taking of the officers' *course in cavalry.
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this the one in regard to which the hon. membeT for Fron-tenac (Mr. Edwards) was trying to get information for so long and about which he was so patient?


Robert Rogers: It may be.
Ottawa public buildings-fire escapes, $15,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I suppose that is for those belly bands we have up in our windows?


Robert Rogers: No, it is for iron ladders. There is a general idea that we should have fire escapes around our public buildings now. I would like my hon. friend to try one of those belly bands.
Ottawa Royal Mint-repairs and improvements, $10,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are these repairs necessary? The minister has about $2,000,000 in these further Supplementary Estimates for public works. It hardly seems like carrying out the pledge that he has been making to us every other day.


Robert Rogers: $1,500,000 is for the main Parliament building.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It does not take long to get away with $1,000,000 on that.


Robert Rogers: We have to build the Parliament building. The other items are very small.
Winnipeg post office-sidewalk mail receiver,


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is that for just one mail receiver?


Robert Rogers: That is at the back of the post office in a lane which is our property. The postmaster states that the time and labour which would be saved would be equivalent to at least one porter's salary per annum, for the reason that the mail delivered in the chute would land upon the sorting table in the basement instead of having to be received by the porters at the rear of the post office piece by piece or in sacks, placed upon a truck, taken down one floor and then hauled a hundred feet back and then lifted item by item or sack by sack on to the sorting table.


George Perry Graham: You will have to hire a new porter to watch the mail receiver.

Winnipeg-to fit up old immigration building as postal station, $50,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is that?


Robert Rogers: We have an immigration hall adjoining the Winnipeg station and it is not a suitable place for an immigration hall. We have to have an additional postal station and we have decided to fit up the immigration hall for the postal station, thus saving the building of a new one.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What will you do with
the immigrants?


Robert Rogers: We have an old building alongside to use for as many immigrants as are coming in now. We' are practising economy.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Why does it take $50,000 to fix this place up?


Robert Rogers: It will take all of that.
The Canadian Pacific Railway Company have made great improvements there and we have to make certain improvements to
conform with the layout of the place.
Regina public buildings-Government's share of cost of local improvement rates, $4,600.


George Perry Graham: Does the Government
pay the frontage tax or the local improvement rates in every city?


Robert Rogers: Every place, yes.
Sutherland-building in connection with Forest nursery station, $5,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is that item for?


Robert Rogers: For the erection of a
building to be used as a boarding house for the men employed in connection with the nursery station at Sutherland. The building is 28 by 32, two and a half stories, with rear wing 20 by 12, a frame building on stone foundation. The lowest tenderer was $3,365; contingencies and superintendence, $1,335; total, $5,000. The deputy minister strongly recommended that provision be made for the boarding house as it was urgently needed. Eight tenders were received.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is there $1,335 for
superintendence on a $3,365 building?


Robert Rogers: That is for all the contingencies, fitting it up inside and that sort of thing.
Calgary drill hall-further amount required, $100,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Are you erecting that building?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is $100,000 already in the Estimates.


Robert Rogers: It will take $200,000.
There was some delay in going ahead with the work on account of arrangements having to be made with the city for the site. It is absolutely necessary to put up this building because more soldiers are being recruited in Calgary than in probably any other city in Canada, and there is no accommodation there of any kind.
Victoria immigration building-to provide for Government's share of cost of laying a heavy asphalt pavement on Dallas road and Simcoe street, $1,345.02.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I suppose we
cannot criticise the present minister very much for these votes in aid of construction of sidewalks, because it has been the practice, I believe, for some years. I only rise to suggest the wisdom of a change in that policy hereafter. I think these towns may well construct the sidewalks around the buildings that the Canadian Government erects.


Robert Rogers: This has been the practice for so many years that it is now expected, and it will be unacceptable if a change is attempted.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But it grows so rapidly.


Robert Rogers: The Dominion Government should keep pace with the enterprise of a growing town.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But if the Government erects a building should not the town assume the responsibility for the sidewalk?


Robert Rogers: If in a town or city a person erects a store or dwelling, he contributes in taxation on that building for the maintenance of sidewalks and other public works and. services. But we pay no taxes, and surely it is only in keeping with our proper relation to the development of a growing town to provide as a local improvement the necessary sidewalk.
Harbours and rivers, Nova Scotia, $119,400.


George Perry Graham: There is an item here for East river, improvements, a further amount required of 160,000. That is a large item.


Robert Rogers: That is for the lock gates and the completion of the great work we are doing on the East river for the development of that growing and thriving portion of our Dominion.
228i
' Mr. GRAHAM: What county is that in?


Robert Rogers: Pictou county, I believe.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister please state why he has not awarded the contract for the construction of the lock gates? I understood -that tenders have been called for, and we -should like to see the work go on. If the gates are not put in during the summer, long delay will be caused.


Robert Rogers: We have called for tenders, but I did not like to award the contract until the vote had passed Parliament. As soon as the vote is passed we will take the matter up and get ahead.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: There is an item here of $1,500 to construct a pile wharf at Whycocamagh. What is to be done there?


Robert Rogers: This is to reconstruct the wharf. Assistant Engineer McKeen reports that on September 2 last |he made an examination of the wharf and found it in a very bad condition, so bad -that he considered it dangerous to load any great weight upon it, unless extensive repairs were made. Eighty-seven out of 154 piles supporting the wharf were badly worm-eaten, and practically gave no support to th$ wharf, some of them being completely cut off.


Mr. McKENZIE:: In connection with the item in this vote of $1,000 to repair the breakwater at Jamesville. I understand that the work now proposed to be carried out is much smaller than was at first desired, and that it will not fulfil the purpose of the engineer. I do not know whether the minister has before him the -information as to that. But .in connection with the construction of -that breakwater, I desire to call his attention now to a matter with regard to which I have had some correspondence with the department and on the subject of which I wrote him a letter today. Those carrying on the work engaged the scow of a man there and kept it for two months, but they decline to pay him except for the days during which they actually worked with the scow. It is no fault of the owner if they did not use the scow every -day during which they kept it, and all he asks is that they should pay him what other people pay him for the use of the scow, namely $3.50 a day. I do not know whether the minister thinks that that is too high a price to pay for a large scow, but that is another question and- one of which I am no judge. It is not fair that

[DOT]they should take the man's scow and keep it for two months and then pay only for the days when they were at work. While I am on my feet, I desire to ask what is to be done under the item in this vote of $2,300 for repairs to ballast wharf at North Sydney.


Robert Rogers: As to the question of the scow to which the hon. gentleman has called .attention, when I receive his letter I shall be glad to have the matter looked into. It is the usual practice of the department to pay for a scow only for the days it is used. If there is any special reason to justify what the hon. gentleman recommends, I .shall be glad to give it consideration. As to the item with regard to North Sydney, this work is asked for by the district engineer. It is to build the outer face of a wharf where vessels lie for the discharge of ballast. The estimated cost is $2,270.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That work is yet to be done?


Robert Rogers: To be done.
Progress reported.


QUEBEC, AND SAGUENAY AND LOTBINIERE AND MEGANTIC -RAILWAYS.
Robert Rogers: This afternoon some hon. gentleman asked for certain information with regard to our railway legislation, in connection with lines of railway to be built below Quebec. I would ask the House to go back to the introduction of Bills, so that I can introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act to authorize the acquisition of lines of railway between the city of Quebec and Nairn Falls and between Lyster and St. Jean des Chaillons," in order that it may be printed and place given to it on the Order Paper.


George Perry Graham: This Bill has to be preceded by resolution.


Robert Rogers: Not necessarily.


William Pugsley: It involves the expenditure of public moneys.


George Perry Graham: My view is that any Bill involving the expenditure of money should be introduced by resolution. Notice of the resolution is given, the resolution goes through its various stages, and a Bill is introduced founded on the resolution.


Robert Rogers: In any case an Estimate will follow the Bill. .


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: May I suggest that the motion to revert to this order of business be put, and that any discussion take place on that motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House proceeded to the order "Introduction of Bills."
Mr. ROGERS moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 101, to authorize the acquisition of lines of railway between the city of Quebec and Nairn Falls and between Lyster and St. Jean des Chaillons.
George Perry Graham: I still maintain that this Bill ought to be founded on a resolution. My hon. friend says that the Bill will be followed by an Estimate. That certainly is a roundabout proceeding; it is a new method of doing business in this House. Where we are providing by a Bill to do certain things surely that Bill, being a money Bill, ought to be founded on a resolution. The proposed aid to the Canadian Northern railway and Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Companies, not being brought in in the form of a Bill, need not necessarily have been proceeded by a resolution. This method, I may say, is very objectionable; a resolution would have been better. The procedure, however, suggested by my hon. friend is so contrary to all the practices of the House that I must protest against that way of doing it.


Robert Rogers: This Bill is founded on an Act passed in 1915 for the acquirement of branch line railways.


George Perry Graham: This one line cannot
apply to that.


Robert Rogers: No, it cannot apply to that, but this Bill applies to it, and is followed by an Estimate. That is why a resolution is unnecessary.


William Pugsley: I think the hon. member for South Renfrew is right in the view that he takes, because the Bill certainly proposes a money obligation.


Robert Rogers: Not without an Estimate.


William Pugsley: Oh, yes. It says this:
The Governor in Council may authorize and empower the Minister of Railways and Canals to acquire, under the provision of "An Act to amend the Government Railways Act and to authorize the purchase of certain railways ", chapter 16 of the statutes of 1915, and upon such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve, the railways described in the schedule hereto, together with such equipment, etc.
I Mr. McKenzie.]

The consideration to be paid tor each of the said railways and for any equipment, appurtenances and properties that may be acquired as aforesaid shall be the value thereof as determined by the Exchequer Court of Canada.


Robert Rogers: And to be followed by an Estimate.


William Pugsley: It does not say that.


Robert Rogers: It has to be, in order to be of any value.


William Pugsley: It is clear that if this Bill were passed it wouild authorize the Minister of Railways to purchase a road, the actual price paid to be fixed by the Exchequer Court of Canada. Rule 77 of the House says:
If any motion be made in the House for any public aid or charge upon the people, the consideration and debate thereof may not be presently entered upon, but shall be adjourned until such further day as the House thinks fit to appoint; and then it shall be referred to a Committee of the Whole House before any resolution or vote of the House do pass thereupon.
The meaning of that is that this Bill must be preceded by a resolution. Perhaps, however, it might be better to let the Bill be read the first time, and any objection could be taken on the second reading.


Robert Rogers: I simply made the motion for the benefit of hon. gentlemen opposite who wanted the information.


William Pugsley: I withdraw the suggestion that I made, because I understand that the member for South Renfrew feels like urging his point of order.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. gentleman has referred to rule 77, which says that any motion for any public aid or charge upon the people shall be preceded by a resolution in committee. Further, it must be recommended by His Royal Highness the Governor General. I observe in looking over this Bill that, while it authorizes the purchase of a railway and provides the machinery, it makes no provision for the raising of funds. My mind goes back to a decision which was rendered by Mr. Speaker Sproule in the session of 1912, I think, on the question of the Highways Bill, which was an instance precisely in accord with this, if I mistake not. His decision at that time was that it was not a money Bill, inasmuch as any money to be expended would have to be provided either by Estimate or in some other manner authorised by Parliament.


George Perry Graham: But he changed that decision.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think not. At all events, I think, having in view that decision, this cannot be regarded as a money Bill inasmuch as it does not provide for the expenditure of money, and the purchase cannot be completed until money is provided by Parliament by some constitutional means.


William Pugsley: In the Highway Bill
there was this difference, that the Bill provided that any moneys to be appropriated to the provinces should be voted bjr Parliament. But this Bill provides for the purchase of a railway, the price to be fixed by the Exchequer Court of Canada. That would authorize a positive agreement of purchase to be entered into, and if the Government should fail to carry out the agreement, I should think an action might be brought in the Exchequer Court and the price would be fixed by the Exchequer Court. The owner of the railway could recover the amount of the legal obligation. The Bill is clearly for the purpose of creating a charge. The Minister of Railways is authorized to make the agreement, the price to be fixed by the Exchequer Court. Then the Railway Company would commence suit in the Exchequer and would recover against the Crown the amount the Exchequer Court might fix as the value of their property.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The Bill provides :	'
The Governor In Council may authorize and empower the Minister of Railways and Canals to acquire, under the provisions of an Act to amend the Government Railways Act, and to authorize the purchase of certain railways, chapter 16 of the Statutes, of 1916.
That is the so-called Branch Lines Act. This Bill, as I understand it, purports to bring the purchase or acquisition of this railway under the provisions of the Act of 1915, and if the objection of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) holds good in this case, it would hold good in the case of that Act, because that Act authorizes the purchase of certain branch lines of railways, but that purchase cannot be made complete until Parliament, by some constitutional means, afterwards provides the money. That, I submit places this Bill in exactly the same position as the Branch Lines Railway Bill, and for that reason as well as for the Teason previously indicated, without professing to have gone into the

matter exhaustively, I am quite clear in my own mind that the minister is in order in bringing in this Bill as it has been brought in, by notice on the Order Paper, rather than by resolution, as if it were a money Bill, or a Bill in respect of trade.


Robert Rogers: I was only putting the Bill forward to suit the convenience of the House in view of the fact that we all know that this legislation is coming forward, and I understood that hon. gentlemen opposite were anxious to know exactly what it was. I put it forward with a view to getting it printed at once, and we shall, of course, be glad to discuss it on further readings when it suits the 'convenience of hon. gentlemen opposite. There is no speoial haste; it is only because we are getting close to the end of the session and I wanted to give the hon. gentlemen opposite all the information the Bill contains.


William Pugsley: It is very important that we should proceed correctly, because if this is a money Bill it cannot be amended in another branch of Parliament; if it is not it can be amended as the other branch may determine. Therefore it is very important .always to have the correct idea.


Robert Rogers: That is right. The Speaker has ruled.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: You had better be safe.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time.
- On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11 .IS p.m.
Tuesday, May 9, 1916.