1916-03-31

Mr. SPEAKER:: I submit herewith a report of the Clerk of the House with reference to certain changes in the organization of the Hansard -section of the reporting branch of -the House of Commons. Some of these changes, which have been in operation since the opening of the present session, have been found to be very satisfactory and not attended with any increase- of expense.

The views expressed in the said report meet with my approval and I recommend that the same be ciarrie-d into effect:
House of Commons,
March 2S, 1916.
Sir,-In response to your request for a report on the work of the Reporting Branch (Hansard Section) of the House of Commons, since the transfer of its secretary to the Votes and Proceedings Branch of the service, I beg to report that, following upon your directions, at the beginning of this session, the editors of debates took over ail the secretarial duties, and I understand that the work of the branch has proceeded most satisfactorily. There being no longer any occasion for a secretaryship as a separate position, I recommend that no further appointment he made and that the office be abolished.
As Mr. Owens has been relieved of reportorial work, a temporary transfer from the committee section of a reporter was made to the Hansard section. This, by reason of the secretary's- salary being no longer required, occasioned no additional expense.
I beg further to recommend, as a consequence of this change, that Mr. Owens, on account of his long service and experience, he designated
Editor of Debates " to act conjointly with Mr. Horton, instead of " Associate Editor of Debates and Reporter," and that the editors of debates have equal responsibility in regard to the work of the Hansard Section of the Reporting Branch of the House.
I am, sir,
Tour obedient servant,
Thos. B. Flint, Clerk of the House.
The Honourable
The Speaker of
The House of Commons.



PRIVILEGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CLEMENTS:: I rise to a question of privilege. I understand that in the Public Accounts Committee the hon. member for Gar-leton (Mr. Carvell) was questioning a witness, a Mr. Mallory, who made the statement, in connection with the dredging at Victoria, that he ihad overhead Mr. Mac-donell say that he had paid over $1,000 or $1,500 to myself, Mr. Clements-, the member for Atlin,. If the hon. member for Garleton endeavoured to insinuate that I had received one nickel or $1,000 or $1,500 from Mr. Mac-d-onell or any other man in the Dominion, then I say without any hesitation that he prevaricates, -and so does th-e witness, and he is nothing more than a slanderer. I say that without any hesitation.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: Order.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I never received a cent.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: Order.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I will withdraw that statement, but that is how I feel.


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: Order. It is * unparliamentary to insinuate that an hon. member is a slanderer.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I bow to your decision. I cannot repeat that statement, but that is how I feel. I have been a member of this House for a number of years, both in Opposition and on the Government side, and let me say to the House-and I will say it on oath as soon as I get before the Public Accounts Committee-that I have never received a five-cent piece by way of graft either in public or in private life.



CORRECTION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. PUGSLEY:: I rise to a question of privilege for the purpose of correcting a statement which appears in Hansard purporting to have been made by me during the remarks of the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte). It will be found on page 2379 of Hansard. Mr. Kyte was speaking, and he used these words:
Mr. Kyte:	I wonder if I am making any
impression upon hon. gentlemen opposite.
Some hon. Members: None whatever.
Mr. Kyte: Well, then it is just what I expected, so I am not surprised.
Mr. Pugsley: The longer you speak the less the impression.
What I said was: "The worse the story the less the impression." I would be glad if that would be corrected in the revised edition.



TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY OPERATION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Pugsley: I would like to ask my right hon. friend the Prime Minister a question in regard to the operation of the Transcontinental railway by the Government. There is a good deal of discussion taking place in New Brunswick regarding the operation of the road, and I would like to ask my hon. friend if the arrangement for the operation of' the Transcontinental railway by the Government is a temporary one or a permanent one.


Sr ROBERT BORDEN:: The operation of what part of it?


William Pugsley: The whole Transcontinental from Winnipeg to Moncton, which is being operated just now by the Government as a part of the Intercolonial.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: It could not be a permanent arrangement unless the Government had entered into an agreement to take over the road and to relieve the Grand Trunk Pacific from its operation. No such agreement has been made, and we could not make one without the authority of Parliament.



WAR SUPPLIES-THE DAVIDSON COMMISSION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. MACDONALD:: I observe that in the cable from the Minister of Militia with regard to the charges that have been made he suggests that they be referred to the Sir Charles Davidson Commission. I desire to ask whether this Commission is still in existence, and, if so, whether any report has been made; and, if not, when it is expected that the report will be presented. The commissioner 'has been working for a long period of time, and in the interest of the country the House ought to know the result of his deliberations.


Robert Laird Borden: The commissioner is still engaged in the duty which was assigned to him by the Order in Council. Inquiry has been made with regard to his report-if not the final report, at least the report on matters as to which evidence may have been concluded. I understand that the commissioner is now engaged in the preparation of a report on such matters. For the purpose of making his report, he has to go over, I believe, some six thousand pages of typewritten evidence; but he is doing his best to expedite the report with respect to the matters that have been concluded.



INSURANCE COMPANIES INVESTMENT BILL.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas, White, the House went into Committee on Bill No. 35, respecting the investments of Life Insurance Companies, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
On section 3-investment in securities of Canada required on 31st December, 1916:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: This resembles very much a forced loan. I am very sorry that at this early period the Government should feel it necessary to resort to methods of this kind. The Minister of Finance invited the insurance companies last fall to invest in the war loan. Some responded, and others did not respond. This Bill is really a way to compel them, nolens

volens, to put their funds into Government securities. It interferes with their freedom of control, and compels a diversion of their assets from channels in which they are accustomed to invest. Is the Minister of Finance forced really to take such a measure?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: This is a war
measure, but I think a gocd deal could he said for it even in time of peace. Under the Insurance Act, insurance companies are limited in their investments. It would not appear to me that it would be a hardship on life insurance companies if, even in ordinary times, they were compelled to invest a certain proportion of their net ledger assets, available for investement, in Dominion securities. But it is not my intention that this measure should be permanent. As I stated on the occasion of the second reading, it is a war measure, and its object is to provide a market for a portion of our domestic war loans and issues. I have already stated to the House the amount which we may have to borrow during the present year in connection with the war. It is not possible for us to say how long the war may last. We have our hopes, we Have our expectations, but there is no certainty as to the period of time over which the war may continue. As I pointed out the other day, we have the American market and the Canadian market for our securities. It is hardly open for us to make a war loan in the American market, and the result is that our war loans, during the period of the war, must be, so far as I can see, in the Canadian market. There can be no reasonable grounds for objection. There is another way to look at it. In our war taxation measure we exempt the life insurance companies, and it would seem to me that this might be regarded by the companies as a fair measure, as giving them an opportunity to contribute towards the war. In a sense, I suppose, it is a forced loan, though I do not think that is a happy expression for it. Parliament has power over the investments of companies, among others the life insurance companies carrying on business in Canada under Dominion licenses, and it would appear to me that as the rate which they will obtain is attractive, and, as the securities are absolutely beyond question, there is no hardship to the insurance companies, and no detriment to the policyholders who are interested in those companies, in calling upon them to invest in our war securities a portion of their net ledger assets.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think that my hon. friend has not fully apprehended my objection to this legislation. I look upon it as most unfortunate that we should create the impression that the Government is obliged to resort to a forced loan in order to carry on its war measures. My hon. friend says that he is limited in his field of operations. That may he, but I would have hoped that he would be able to get all the cash that he needs without having recourse to such a measure as this. My hon. friend says that to submit the insurance companies to the necessity of investing in Government loans is inflicting no hardship upon them, but under the provisions of this legislation the impression will be created that this is a loan which is being forced on these companies, and to that extent I think the measure is objectionable.


William Thomas White: It is quite true that the insurance companies of Canada responded well in connection with the last domestic loan; in that respect I paid them a tribute in my Budget speech.


Wilfrid Laurier: Did they respond to the extent of the demand made?


William Thomas White: It was not a demand; therefore there could be no question of their responding to the extent of the demand, but they did respond, and responded well. I may tell my right hon. friend that there are some life insurance companies doing business in Canada which wpuld have responded had it not been for the fact of having German share-holders or policyholders. To me it seems expedient that all life insurance companies carrying on business in this country should be put on the same basis. If the directorates of any life insurance companies are restrained from doing what they would otherwise gladly do by reason of the influence of enemy [DOT]policyholders and shareholders, I purpose putting them on the basis where they must pay by law.	.


Mr. OLIVER:: Would the minister have any objection to giving the names of the companies to which he has alluded?


William Thomas White: I have objection, certainly, because it might injure the companies in question. Most of their policyholders and shareholders may have been in favour of it; a minority might have objected. It would, I think, be improper for me to make any statement with regard to
f

particular companies. So far as I can learn, the management of all the companies would have been quite willing to respond.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend has made a statement reflecting on certain insurance companies, and unless the companies against which he directs the reflection particularly are in some way distinguished then the reflection stands against all insurance- companies.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: I think it is good national policy that insurance companies should invest as much of their -trust funds a-s possible in Canadian securities,- of the Government, or of provinces and municipalities, and on mortgages on property in Canada. Those of our life insurance companies which have large trust funds in their charge should put the bulk of those trust funds in securities absolutely pertaining to the country in which they do business. If this were done we should be keeping our -money at home. There has been a very considerable protest in this country against some of our insurance companies investing their trust funds in questionable, or, rather, speculative companies outside of Canada, and I should like to- see the insurance law revised with a view to compelling insurance companies to put most of their trust funds in Canadian investments. I hope there is truth in the rumour that some of our insurance companies are taking many of the securities which they have invested in outside countries, especially in the United, States, and are reinvesting them in Canadian securities. The trust funds that are held for the benefit of Canadian policyholders in American companies belong to the Canadian people, and we should see that they are largely invested in Canada. They are contributed, by the Canadian people in the first place, -and -should be used to build up our own industries, to help our own enterprises and to help the Government. The experience of countries in which they have government insurance is that while the security to the policyholder has not depreciated in the least, a large amount of trust money is available in the country. If the tendency of this measure is in any way in that direction, it commends itself to me and to many people in this country as being sound national policy.


Wilfrid Laurier: No national
policy is compulsory, all investments should
be voluntary and based upon profits. That is the only objection I have. Otherwise I feel that the measure is good, but I do not like the compulsion part of it.


Mr. McCRANEY:: Some time ago the
minister suggested that he had under consideration a scheme for making advances to the farmers of western Canada, especially on rural credits. The proposal which is now before the committee has a very close relation to rural credits. As has been stated by the member for South York, our largest insurance companies are lending their money on farm loans, on which the usual rate of interest is 8 per cent. I would expect that the withdrawal of these large funds would tighten up the money market so that the rate of interest -would rise. I would impress on the minister the desirability of arriving at some scheme whereby the credit of Canada could be used along the lines that he has suggested for meeting the deficiency in the market-which this legislation will create.


William Thomas White: The matter to
which my hon. friend refers is one that I hardly think is cognate to the question under consideration. As T stated in the Budget, I purpose looking into the whole question of rural credits, and the facilitating of loans on the security of mortgages on the amortization principle. It may be interesting to my hon. friend from South York (Mr. Maclean) to know that of the $118,000,000 of securities held by the Receiver General, and by the Trustees in Canada, for the security of policy holders of nonCanadian companies doing business without license in Canada, all but $10,000,000 or $12,000,000 is in Canadian securities.


William Findlay Maclean: That is good. Is that compulsory?


William Thomas White: It is not compulsory, except to this extent, that the insurance companies are limited to" certain investments, and, of course, the treasury board exercises their discretion as to what securities will be allowed. Of the total I have mentioned there are no less than $53,000,000 of Canadian municipal securities and $16,000,000 of Canadian mortgages.


William Pugsley: I desire to emphasize
the point which I made when this Bill was introduced. It seems to look forward entirely to providing for investment in securities of the Dominion of Canada. We know that insurance companies doing

?402

business in Canada hold a great many debentures of the provinces, cities, and towns throughout the Dominion; and I do not think it is a proper course for this Parliament to say that hereafter a certain percentage must be invested in the securities of Canada, or as is said in section 5, that any deposit of securities, in respect of the business of life insurance,- made prior to the first day of January, 1918, shall be in the securities of Canada. I should think that if this provision is desirable at all, it ought to be extended to the debentures of any province, city, town, or county in the Dominion of Canada. We have control of insurance, as it applies to the Dominion, but I do not think we ought to discriminate against the securities of the different provinces, or of the different municipalities within the Dominion. If' an insurance company offers securities of cities, municipalities, or provinces, which, in the opinion of the Minister of Finance, are equally as good, as in most cases they are, as the debentures or bonds of the Dominion, I think these securities ought to be accepted. We should not take advantage of the power we have in dealing with securities to discriminate in this way against the provinces, or the various municipalities who are doing just as much work in their own way in assisting towards carrying on the war, and in bearing the great burdens which are cast upon the people by reason of present conditions, as this Parliament, or this Government, is doing. I think it is unfair discrimination, and I am surprised that the Minister of Finance should insist upon it.


Mr. CURRIE:: Will the minister be good enough to bring down a return containing a list of the names of the insurance companies, so that we will know when we are taking out insurance whether any insurance companies are controlled by Germans or not.
Sir TflOMAS WHITE: So far as I am aware, the management of all insurance companies doing business in Canada are quite loyal to Canada, and willing to take a share in any loans that may be put upon the market. But it is quite obvious that, if there is an enemy element among the policy holders, or shareholders, that would have an influence upon the management. Under this Bill, all companies doing business in Canada will toe required to invest in the securities of the Dominion, and there can be no objection put forward to

the management of life insurance companies investing in our war loans. My hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) has some objections to the measure. I would not expect him to concur, because, although I think he is unconscious of it, he has what I might call an opportune tutelary deity which he must appease before any Bill passes.


William Pugsley: Has the minister the shell business in mind?


William Thomas White: My hon. friend speaks as if we were living in the piping times of peace, instead of being engaged in the greatest war in history. He speaks as if the obligations of the municipalities and provinces were on all fours with those of the Dominion. The burden of this war falls squarely, as it -should, upon the Dominion Government, and I would consider that I -was failing in my duty if I did not take measures, so far as possible, to enable us to meet this burden. It will be an increasing burden as the war goes on. It is heavy now, and it will be heavier 6ix months from now.	If the war lasts
till next year, it will be heavier still, because our military establishment will- toe continually increasing. There is nothing in this situation which, in my judgment, calls for any objection, either on the part of the municipalities, or of the provinces, or of any section of the public of Canada. The Act will be in force only for a period of two years. It requires insurance companies to invest only 50 per cent of their net ledger assets in Dominion securities, and it is open to them to invest the remainder in municipal or provincial bonds, if they so desire: so there is no unjust discrimination against municipalities or provinces. It is frankly a war measure, designed to assist the Dominion in financing the period of the war. I do not believe that we yet fully realize the extent of the obligations which may be imposed upon us. Of course the provinces and municipalities have come forward generously in assisting the Red Cross and Canadian Patriotic Funds, and in various other ways they have done nobly. But, when that has been said, the fact remains that the obligations of the Dominion Government are infinitely heavier, as they should be, than those which any other public bodies in the Dominion will have to assume.


William Findlay Maclean: Can the minister say what percentage of the investments of

Canadian companies is in Canadian securities?


William Thomas White: I am not able to say off hand.


William Findlay Maclean: It is not as much as in the case of the American companies. There is no reason why it should not be. This being a war measure, to my mind, it will extend over a much greater period than two years. Also, to my mind, it would be good national policy if it were made a permanent measure.


William Pugsley: I am very sorry that
the Minister of Finance seems to think it necessary, because a member of this House feels it to be ' his duty to criticise some [DOT] measures which the minister introduces, to intimate that he is animated by some uncontrollable desire to oppose Government measures.	.


William Thomas White: Do not take it to heart.


William Pugsley: I do take to heart criticism of this kind, because it, is not fair, and it is not what one would expect from the minister. Of course, I know what is in the inner soul and consciousness of the Minister of Finance. He is filled with a complete and thorough realization of the wrongs which have been committed against the people of Canada and of the Empire in connection with the shell and fuse business. He knows that I have sought 'to expose these wrongs somewhat, and I suppose he feels that, so far as my conduct is concerned, he should judge one thing from the other. When he introduces a measure which commends itself to my judgment, or pursues a course of which we can approve, it will afford me great pleasure to	give him	my approval.
Does my hon. friend realize the great burdens which Canada will have to bear in connection with the war? My hon. friend speaks as if it were this Government that was bearing the burden. It is the whole people of Canada who are bearing the burden. Who are the people of Canada? The provinces, the cities and towns are representing the people of this entire Dominion. It is the people, certainly, and not this Government who are bearing the burden. It is the people who are borne down by taxes who have to suffer. The different provinces, municipalities, cities and towns are very deeply interested in having as high a market as they possibly can for their securities, and the Minister of Finance is proposing now to direct a blow at these provincial and municipal securities and to place them at a disadvantage, in so far as investment by life insurance companies is concerned, as against the securities of Canada. I think my hon. friend forgets that it is the people of Canada who are bearing these enormous burdens and we ought not to disregard what the various provinces and municipalities are doing in the way of increased taxation and what the people at large are doing in the way of contributions to all those various causes which are made worthy of support, and which are demanding consideration, by reason of the war. Then, a word in regard to the statement of my hon. friend as to companies only being required to invest 50 per cent of the moneys required for the protection of Canadian policyholders in the securities of Canada. I think my hon. friend must be mistaken as to one of the requirements, at all events. That is the one contained in section 5, because that section provides that:
After the fifteenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen, any deposit of securities in respect of the business of life insurance required or permitted by the Insurance Act, 1910, to be made prior to the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, with the Receiver General or with a Canadian trustee or trustees appointed under and for the purposes of the said Act by any company licensed under the said Act to transact the business of life insurance In Canada other than a Canadian company shall consist of securities of Canada.
They cannot consist of the securities of any province or any municipality but they must consist wholly of the securities of Canada.
I am not sufficiently familiar with the requirements to know just to what extent that would discriminate against provinces, but I do not think the minister is adopting a right principle when he proposes such a provision as that. I do not think it can be supported on any fair or reasonable ground, either by reason of war conditions or otherwise.
Mr. MeCRANEY: In order to make up this 50 per cent of funds to be invested with the Dominion Government, the companies will have to withdraw moneys from other places in which they are now invested.


William Thomas White: No.
Mr. MeCRANEY: At any rate, debentures are long term investments, mortgages are five year investments at most, they are falling in from time to time and the result will he that the moneys of companies which

are invested in farm loans will toe turned over under this Act to the Dominion and the burden will fall more particularly on the farmers than on any other class.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend is mistaken. This only applies to the increase in the net ledger assets. The proceeds of an investment paid off will be available for investment in the same or other securities. It only applies to a 50 per cent increase in the case of Canadian companies and we are dealing with fresh deposits in the case of non-Canadian companies.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
^Fisheries-to provide for the maintenance of 'experimental works for the reduction of dogfish, $60,000.
["I am sure the committee will be glad to hear from my hon. friend a little later on.' The Hydro is also of great help to the munition 9 p.m. factories in western and eastern Ontario. Furthermore, it will carry freight at cost.\nThe hour for Private Bills having expired, the committee rose and reported progress."]
Mr. SINCLAIR:: Will the minister give us some information on that?


Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: This is the usual appropriation. The expenditure in 1914-15 was $37,882, and the expenditure for the current year, up to December 31, has been $14,814. The expenditure depends in large measure each year on the number of dogfish visiting the shores in the vicinity of the works, and this varies from year to year. In oases where there is a large number of dogfish obtained, the expenditures are naturally greater as there are more dogfish reduced into the fertilizer that is manufactured. The Canso works this year were opened on September 7 and closed on November 30. During that time 883 tons 120 pounds of dogfish were handled. These produced 110 tons 900 pounds oif scrap and 9,229 gallons of oil. The Clarke's Hanhour works were opened on September 13 and closed November 4. During that time 309 tons and 1,814 pounds of fish scrap and dogfish were handled, yielding 48J tons of scrap and 2,762 gallons of oil. The scrap was sold to farmers in lots not exceeding five tons at $20 per ton f.o.b. works. The cost of maintenance up to December 31, 1915, was as follows :
Canso.
Labour	$2,392 98
Haw material, fish	 3,532 24
Fuel	'[DOT] 675 00
Supplies	 52600
Miscellaneous	 244 99


7	-	[DOT]
Clarke's Harbour.
Labour	$2,484	25Raw material	
1,515	61Fuel	
[DOT] . i ..	683 05Supplies	
331	24 .	*Miscellaneous	
1,658	51


John Howard Sinclair: What was the loss in running these two factories?


John Douglas Hazen: For 1916, the expenditure up to the present time has been $11,814, and the receipts $6,647.76. Taking a full year, in 1914-15 the expenditure was $37,882, and the receipts $9,693.41.


Mr. TURGEON:: When this Government came into power they closed the dogfish works at Shippigan, in the ebunty of Gloucester. I do not blame the minister so very much, because I know there had been complaints before 1911, although I do not think they were sufficiently serious to justify the closing of the works. Two years ago the minister told me that the works would be re-opened in the spring, and either run by the department or leased. I presume it was too late in the season for the minister to lease the works. I did not complain last year, because I thought
4 p.m. things should go on fairly quietly while the war was ou. However, there is now a great cry for production, production, and still more production, and I think these works should be reopened. The minister knows how important they are to the Caraquet fleet. The fishermen lose a great deal of time owing to the damage done to their gear by the dogfish. I do not care whether the department runs the works or leases them to private parties, but I do think they should be re-opened. In the county of Gloucester, there are about 240 schooners engaged on the banks of the gulf of the St. Lawrence. They leave on Monday morning and come back on Saturday night, and bring a large amount of money into Gloucester county from the sale of the fish. I think every encouragement should he given to this trade, for it helps to keep the young men at home, most of them working on the same schooner as their father. The minister will see by the records of his department that practically all the fertilizer made at that factory was sold to farmers in the neighbourhood or across the Baie des Ohaleurs. I hope the minister will seriously consider the re-opening of these works, either by the department itself, or by leasing them to outside parties.


John Douglas Hazen: The results of the operation of the factory at Shippigan were most unsatisfactory, and it was impossible to justify

its continuance from the public standpoint. Not only were complaints made with regard to the location of the factory, which was right in the village, but the residents nearby complained that the odour from the factory was most Unpleasant, and at one time the matter was taken up with the Board of Health authorities. But, apart from these complaints, the fishermen did not avail themselves of the factory to any extent. We got a very small supply of dogfish. I do not think that was the fault of the fishermen so much, as on account of the manner in which they conduct their fishing operations. As my hon. friend has said, the fishermen go out on Monday morning and return on Saturday night, with the result tnat they are only able to bring in the few uogfish they can catch just a short time before coming ashore. The result was that very few dogfisn were brought to the factory, and the fertilizer made there was largely made out of fish offal. Now, the primary object of tne factories was to get rid of the dogfish; consequently, we did not think we were justified in continuing the .factory at Shippigan, apart from the fact that serious complaints were made that it was a nuisance to the people living in the immediate vicinity. We tried to lease the factory, but nothing came of the negotiations, although we were willing to lease on very fair and reasonable terms. We would have sold this factory at a very great reduction over the original cost, to anyone who would have carried on a manufacturing industry that would have been for the benefit of the community, but up to the present time no offer has been made that it was possible for us to accept.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Did the minister ever consider the possibility of erecting these plants at a lesser price? The building at Canso could have been put up at a much less cost.


John Douglas Hazen: No, I have not considered that. These buildings were not constructed under my regime as Minister of Marine and Fisheries. When the policy of erecting these factories was introduced by the previous minister, I think the hope was expressed that after the Government had demonstrated the business possibilities of making dogfish into fertilizer, the industry would be taken up by private individuals, and the Government would cease spending money on it. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. I never visited one of these dogfish factories myself, and I do not know
whether cheaper buildings would answer the purpose or not.


Alexander William Chisholm: I think that if the minister saw the beautiful structure at Canso, he would be strongly of the opinion that the same purpose could be accomplished by a much less expensive building. That was at a time when they were experimenting, as the minister has said. My reason for bringing this matter up is that, if the officers of his department make it clear to him it is necessary to erect some of these buildings, I would like him to see the necessity of erecting one in the county of Inverness. My request is not made from selfish motives. The coast line of Inverness county is about 110 miles long, and * the fishermen along that coast are suffering every year from the destruction caused by the dogfish, which I think are more plentiful along the coast of Inverness than along any other part of the coast of Eastern Can- ( ada. The minister will understand how advantageous it would be to the fishermen if they could sell those dogfish, because they are prevented from fishing during the season when the dogfish, which are very destructive of nets and fish, are along the coast. It is impossible for us to send our fish to Canso because of the distance.


John Douglas Hazen: How far are you from Canso?


Mr. CHISHOLM:: About 150 miles, which makes it absolutely prohibitive. If my hon. friend would undertake the erection of a reasonably cheap building near the centre of the county of Inverness-I will not say where, but if he will take me into his confidence and ask me to advise him as to the best site for the building, I shall be very glad to do so-it would be of great benefit to the fishermen in developing an industry in connection with the dogfish.
As the fishermen are deprived of any other sort of fish while the dogfish are along the coast, if they could get a market for the dogfish, it would be of great assistance to them. I had occasion to make this suggestion to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in the late Government, and he gave me his assurance that this building would be erected in 1912; but unfortunately the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in the late Government was prevented from carrying out his promise. I have, however, absolute confidence in the present minister that he will see the justice of my claim.


John Douglas Hazen: I have no intention at the present time of extending this business or of building any more dogfish factories. I was not aware before that it was ever intended to erect one in the county of Inverness or that the matter had gone as far as my hon. friend states. If in the future we should decide' as I think is very doubtful, to erect any more of these factories, I will give consideration to the claims of Inverness county, and if it is decided to erect a factory in Inverness county, I shall be glad to consult my hon. friend about the site.


Alexander William Chisholm: The documents in the department will show the minister that the assurance was given.


John Douglas Hazen: I am not questioning that.


John Howard Sinclair: The matter that interests me most is the distribution of the scrap to the farmers. I have not heard any complaints this year although last year there were a good many complaints, I think that the scrap at Canso was sold en bloc to a merchant, and that the farmers were prevented from participating in the use of the scrap because it was shipped away. I would like to get from the minister a little more information as to how the scrap was disposed of this year, what method he took to give an opportunity to the farmers to tender for it, how many parties did tender, and if it was fairly distributed amongst them. In certain districts in eastern Nova Scotia it is prized very much by the farmers, it is found to be very excellent fertilizer, and the price, I understand, is attractive to them.


John Douglas Hazen: The price is rather on the low side this year.


John Howard Sinclair: It will be impossible for the farmers to obtain such valuable fertilizer at the same price anywhere else, and that is no doubt one of the reasons why they are anxious to participate in its distribution. At the. same time, it has been very useful as a fertilizer; and while we are spending this money and incurring a loss each year, I think it would be the proper policy to see that the farmers always get the benefit of it, because I understand that is one of the objects of making the price low. I would like to have a few particulars about the matter so as to be able to satisfy the people that everything has been done this year that ought to be done in order to ensure a fair distribution.
fMr. A. W. Chisholm.]


John Douglas Hazen: We have had no complaints this year, and I understand my hon. friend to say that he has heard no complaints. The fertilizer was sold direct to the farmers at $20 a ton, and no farmer was allowed to buy more than five tons. There was not enough even then to go round, because, as my hon. friend has said, the price was very attractive. I think the price was too low, but the farmers got the advantage of it, and the scrap did good in the way of keeping their farms in proper condition. As I have said, not a single complaint has reached us this year, although there was a year when a good deal of complaint was made. In one year a trader got in and managed to buy a large quantity of this fertilizer. We safeguard ourselves against that very carefully, but in another year we intend to confine the trade to the farmers of the lower provinces, in which the fertilizer factories are situated, not allowing middlemen or traders to get in at all. We are going to call for tenders on the condition that no one will be allowed to buy more than five tons, and we will sell it at the highest tender, not allowing any one to get a monopoly. We have tried, and with success this year, to get it directly into the hands of the farmers at prices that cannot be complained of, and we intend to pursue a similar course in the future.


John Howard Sinclair: I am afraid, if you ask for tenders, the scrap will inevitably fall into the hands of the traders. It will be easy for a trader who wants to secure the fertilizer to tender in the name of a farmer. I think it would be more satisfactory if the minister fixed a price and allowed the farmers to buy in small quantities, as he is doing now. If the fertilizer falls into the hands of an expert, he mixes one barrel of fertilizer with three or four barrels of useless stuff and sells it to the farmers at a large profit. There is a great deal of deception, I am told, in regard to fertilizers, and it is very difficult to trace any adulteration. I know it is difficult in any case to sell satisfactorily anything belonging to the Government, but the present method is working out very well for the farmers. In my opinion the present method of distribution .is better than putting the fertilizer up for tender so that it may fall into the hands of one party.


John Douglas Hazen: If the fenders were on the condition that nobody should be given more than five tons, does the hon. gentleman think there would be much danger of that?


John Howard Sinclair: Yes, because when you have only 100 tons it is quite easy for some person to get half a dozen or a dozen men to tender for it and get it all.


John Douglas Hazen: If people choose to combine, it is pTetty hard to corner human ingenuity. Under our present system of selling it to the farmers in small quantities, it would be possible for a number of them to combine and do the very thing that my hon. friend says might be done under the system of asking for tenders. There is difficulty in fixing the price at which you will sell it unless you call for tenders ; and while there should be no disposition on the part of the department to charge excessive prices for it, yet it is only fair in the public interest that the supply should be sold, not at a price that is unduly low, but1 at a reasonable figure. The question arises, how are you going to fix that price? Will you find out.at *sthat price other commercial fertilizers are sold? Will you get some scientific man to make an analysis so as to ascertain the relative value of the fertilizer having regard to its composition? Or will you fix the price arbitrarily? If you ask for tenders limiting the quantity that any man may receive, there is no unfairness-in fact, that may be the fairest way to do it. However, we will do the best we can to get it into the hands of the farmers. That is where we want it. We don't intend to have it a question of speculation, if there is any way to avoid it.


John Howard Sinclair: It is such a small matter that it is hardly worth while to do that. If you have only 100 tons, even adding $5 a ton, you would have only $500.
Mir. Hazen: My hon. friend will agree, I am sure, that $20 a ton is a very low price as fertilizer has ranged this year and last year.
Mr. McKENZIE. I wonder if the minister really understands what a serious pest this dogfish has become? If he realized the awful destruction wrought by the dogfish, I think he would be a little more earnest in assisting the fishermen to get clear of it, or, if not to get clear of it, to gain some compensation for destroying this creature. I was told by a fisherman last year that one evening he and his partner baited 2,000 hooks and put them out. In the morning three of the hooks had little codfish on them and there was a dogfish on each of the other hooks. So, there was the labour of baiting the hooks and then the labour of removing the dogfish. I
think the department-though the minister is not responsible for that-started by paying too much for the dogfish, and so made the experiment of carrying on the reduction work a little too expensive. It would take but a very small compensation to make this a paying venture to the fishermen compared with what it is to-day. When they started at Canso what, I believe, is the only reducing plant on the coast, I think they paid too much. But, as the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. A. W. Chisholm) pointed out, if there were cheap structures put up here and there so that the fishermen could bring the dogfish and get something for them, it would be better than the present plan.
I would like to point out to the minister that there is not much he can d,o for the fishermen. This great paraphernalia of officials, when' it is all brought down to brass tacks, does very little for the fishermen; enormous sums are spent, but with very little result. But here is an evil, this1 dogfish pest, and if the minister will protect the fishermen against it he will be doing a good thing. In other lines, if a pest breaks out, it is looked after. K the hog cholera appears the Department of Agriculture, with its machinery, takes hold of the matter and stamps out the disease. If any pest attacks the apple crop of Nova Scotia or elsewhere, large sums are spent to end its ravages. The dogfish is just such a pest. And, as money is spent, and well spent, in stamping out these troubles to which I have referred, I' think it would be equally well to spend money in stamping out the dogfish pest, or, if it can not be stamped out, to utilize. it in some way so that the fishermen can benefit. The fishermen can not put up an establishment for the reduction of dogfish, and so the only thing is for the department to take hold of it and carry it on as cheaply as possible. There has been a great demand for the product of the dogfish reduction works for fertilizer. It is a good fertilizer, and I think large quantities of it could be sold. The only question is the production of it, and if the Government does not establish these reducing plants they will not be established at all. I am very sorry the minister is not a little more enthusiastic on this subject. I am sure that the Canadian people, certainly the people in eastern Nova Scotia, would stand behind him in any reasonable expenditure he might make to cure this evil. I do not know how far the pest extends geographically.


John Douglas Hazen: From the Carribean sea up to the St. Lawrence.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I knew we have them around the northern part of Nova Scotia, but how it is in the southern waters of the province I do not know. Certainly, among the fishermen there is nothing that is so much talked about because of the destruction of nets, trawls, and everything else they put in the water. These creatures being so pernicious in their habits and character, perhaps if they found that they were being turned to a profit they would leave the country altogether. So far, unfortunately, there is m>
indication of their leaving. Of course, they come only at certain periods. In my early days, and until ten or twelve years ago, I never heard of such a thing as a dogfish. Perhaps the minister hopes that the good. Lord himself will interfere and drive this pest away. But I hope he will not wait for any divine interference.


Mr. MICHAUD:: At what time of the year do they appear?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In September or October.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: I was wondering if the minister had ever considered the possibility of distributing this dogfish scrap in smaller quantities.


John Douglas Hazen: It is limited to a quantity not exceeding five tons.


Avard Longley Davidson: I think there ought to be a smaller quantity than that. Inasmuch as this fertilizer is nearly all nitrogen and that the amount of nitrogen that the farmer needs is not very great, the amount distributed might be limited to two tons, and the orders filled as received. That is to say, fill all the first orders until the supply is exhausted this year, and next year do not allow the persons who were provided with the dogfish scrap the year before to be supplied until others are first supplied.
I think that the distribution of dogfish scrap in the Annapolis valley has been attended with favourable results. It has been appreciated by the farmers, and has done a great deal to stimulate agriculture. I should not like to see the price of the commodity greatly increased; certainly the distribution of it should be made as general as possible.
I understand that tne dogfish season is not a very long season, and that when they come, they come in great numbers, with the result that the dogfish reducers are

taxed to the utmost, often receiving more dogfish from the fishermen than they are able to reduce. I was wondering whether it would not be a good idea during the season to put on a larger staff and to allow the reducers to work both day and night.


John Douglas Hazen: That is done. They work day and night whenever there is plenty of material.


Avard Longley Davidson: I am very glad to hear that. I agree that this fertilizer is of great benefit to the farmers and I hope and believe that the department will do everything they can to make the supply as great and the distribution as equitable as possible.


John Howard Sinclair: As a matter of fact I
do not think that the farmers usually take advantage of the five tons. If a five ton order is given it is usually the case that a number of farmers club together to give the order. I was going to suggest to the minister that we have not yet hit upon a method of destroying this pest. It would seem that this is a matter which should be submitted to the Fisheries Advisory Board.


John Douglas Hazen: The matter has been submitted to them, and they are now considering it. A 'committee from that board has visited the factories especially to make report on the subject. -


William Chisholm: Has the
minister or his department been looking into the matter of trying to destroy this pest otherwise than through these dogfish reduction factories? Perhaps he can tell us all also whether similar factories are conducted elsewhere, and if their operations have tended to lessen the number of dogfish. It seems to me that the establishment of the reduction plant at Canso has not in the slightest degree reduced the number of dogfish, and if, as the minister says, the plant is run at a loss, I do not know whether it would be good, policy to embark on any extension of the plant. Of course,
I should like to have one in the county that I have the honour to represent, for the purpose of disposing of the dogfish that come along that shore by the thousands, but the question is, will the establishment of these plants tend in any way to destroy the pest?


John Douglas Hazen: 'This nuisance is very widespread. I believe that during certain seasons of the year these fish may be found all the way from the Carribean sea to the gulf of St. (Lawrence. The question of de-

stroying them' has been the subject of discussion by many biologists and scientific men for years past, but no satisfactory method seems to have been agreed upon. The suggestion was made that they should be destroyed by poison. The idea was that a few of these fish should be inoculated with some kind of poison, and that they would spread it among the others. Up to the present, however, nothing practical seems to have resulted from this theory. Certainly it is doubtful, from the standpoint of protecting the fisheries, if the destruction of the comparatively few fish that have been done away with through the operation of these reduction works justifies the expense of carrying them on. I believe that in the United States they are trying to turn the attention of the people to the value of this fish as a food. Our people have a prejudice against them; I do not think that they are ever used as food in our country. I am told, however, that they are excellent food, and that they can be canned in such manner as to be very nutritious and palatable. In the United States I believe there is some legislation this year looking to the taking of some step to advertise and to make known the valuable properties of this fish as a food, in the hope of inducing fishermen to catch them for food purposes and in that way effect a reduction in their numbers. So far as I am aware, there is no place where these fertilizer factories are carried on outside of Canada. I believe that efforts were made at one time to induce the United States authorities to establish these factories all along the coast for the purpose of protecting the fishermen from the depredations of these dogfish, but the movement was not successful and nothing has been done in that direction.


Mr. HUGHES:: It is not the intention of the Government to build any more of these factories?


John Douglas Hazen: It is not our intention at present to build any more.


John Howard Sinclair: If the minister could take steps to change the name of this fish, the desired effect might be obtained. I am told that this fish is very palatable. A story is told that in a Nova Scotia town, not far from where I live, an enterprising hotelkeeper got a few of these fish fresh from the sea and had his chef prepare them and put them on the table in attractive form. On the menu they were
described as Japanese halibut. Everybody in the house asked for a second helping, and was very much delighted with this new kind of fish. Every one knows that these fish are used in Europe as food. Some years ago a member of this House, who is not here .now, had the idea that the whole question could be settled by establishing canneries and encouraging the canning of this fish so that it could be put on the market. These are matters, of course, for the Fisheries Advisory Board to consider. I have no doubt that there is some better method than the one that we are following, and I hope that the minister will give the matter hie attention.


James Joseph Hughes: Some years ago, before the present minister took charge of the department, some of these fish were canned in Prince Edward Island and put on the New York market. It was found, however, that they had to compete with certain grades of salmon put up in British Columbia more cheaply than these dogfish could be canned, and for that reason they were not a success. As a matter of fact, these fish-I have eaten them-are pretty good food. It is a strong fi6h, but palatable, and, I presume, of good food value.
To pay customs officials for services in connection with issuing modus vivendi licenses, $900.


John Douglas Hazen: The issue of these licenses to United States fishing vessels is entrusted to customs officers, who receive for their trouble 5 per cent commission on the fee collected. The amount spent for 1914-15 was $478.80.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the minister's view with regard to the issuing of licenses to boats propelled by engine.


John Douglas Hazen: That whole question is under negotiation with the United States, and at this stage I would not like to give my own opinion. When the modus vivendi was >
established, fishing vessels were all propelled by sail, but' since then a different state of affairs has arisen, and now many of them are propelled by steam or by combustion engines. I think it was in 1904 that the question arose, and an Order in Council was passed which any hon. gentleman can see for himself, declaring that that modus vivendi applied only to vessels propelled by sails, and not vessels propelled by steam or other propelling power. That was declared, and put on record, as the policy, I believe, of the Government
241C

of that day. Evidently, it was their construction of the modus vivendi agreement. I think there is grave doubt as to the correctness of that view, but I do not wish to express my own opinion. The matter is now under negotiation with the United States which urges that it. should be allowed under the changed conditions to have the modus vivendi licenses granted to vessels that are propelled by steam power, or by gasolene or oil. Correspondence is now being exchanged on the subject.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the minister con-
1 acting the correspondence in his own department?


John Douglas Hazen: Official correspondence
with foreign countries is always conducted through the office of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who in this Government is the Prime Minister. When I say that, I mean that it is to a very great extent prepared in the office of the Marine and Fisheries Department, and then transmitted to the office of the Secretary of State.


John Howard Sinclair: This question is of interest along the coast. I have always had some doubts as to what attitude the Government should take in regard to it, hut the longer I think of it, the more I am convinced that it would be just as well to admit those vessels, even though they are propelled by gasolene or other power of that kind. It is a technical difference between the vessel propelled by sail, and the vessel propelled by steam or gasolene. I am quite well aware that there is a difference of opinion among the fishermen in regard to the matter, feme of them take the view that, if we refuse this accommodation to American vessels, it will be an advantage to the fishing industry of Canada, 'because we will be able to control it to a greater extent ourselves, and to keep away American vessels. I do not think that that would be the case. They would find some method of getting bait and supplies, even if we were to deny them these things. In the county which I represent, American fisherman are always welcomed in the harbours. They arrive in considerable numbers, and they are ready to purchase supplies and bait, and to pay good American dollars for them. The local fishermen -are glad to see them come, because they are good customers. Representing that view of the case, I would urge the minister to give this matter fair consideration. I am told there is another view
[Mi-. Hazen.]
held by those who frequent the fisheries, on the banks, and who want as little competition as possible, but, as I said before, I do not believe that the refusal of these licenses would keep one American vessel away if they want to come. If they find it -more profitable to fish in our waters than anywhere else, they will come whether they get the license or not. They have methods of providing cold -storage in their schooners, and they could take their supplies from home, and we would get no advantage. When we grant the licenses, we -have the benefit of their trade. They run into our harbours, come ashore and spend some money, and it is -a good thing for the local fishermen and traders along the coast. I think that that view is the stronger one, and I would like to -feel that the minister will deal with the question in a sympathetic way, and will see his way clear to make some suitable -arrangement. As to the amount to be charged for the licenses, I do not think that i-s of much importance.


James Joseph Hughes: I would like to endorse the view expressed by the hon. -member for Guysborough, because it represents the feeling in my district.


John Howard Sinclair: I intended to read a memorandum giving an account of a meeting, held in the Board of Tirade rooms in the city of Halifax, by an organization known as the Nova Scotia Branch of the Canadian Fisheries Association. The report says:
Meetings were held at the Board' ot Trade rooms Tuesday by the leading- fish business firms of the city and province for the purpose of forming a. Nova Scotia branch of the Canadian Fisheries Association. A Dominion Association was formed in February last, under the auspices of the Federal Government, and branches are being organized in the different provinces throughout Canada. -S. T. Wilson is vice-president of the Dominion Association, and A. Handfield Whitman a director for Nova Scotia. A number of letters and telegrams were read all wishing success to the organization.
There are some further details, and at the end of the report I find the following :
The modus vivendi and its workings under present conditions was also discussed and a resolution passed endorsing the action of the Halifax Board of Trade in asking that fishing vessels with auxiliary power be accorded the same privileges as sailing vessels, but that lobster boats -be excluded.
I read this to show the view taken at the meeting of the Fisheries Association, which is a representative body.

Fisheries-to provide for the maintenance of a fisheries intelligence bureau, $5,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: I understood that any question could be asked under these items. I would like to have some information as to the item regarding oyster culture. What is the vote of $6,000 for?
' Mr. HAZEN: The department maintains, as it has maintained for a good many years, an oyster expert, who is provided with a boat to attend to the improvement of the public oyster beds along the coasts, and also to afford advice and instruction to those interested in oyster culture. The amount expended for the current year to 31st December last, was $3,905.79. The oyster expert, who has been in the department for 15 or 20 years, is Mr. Kemp. A full report of this work will be found in the Fisheries Report at page 397.


Alexander William Chisholm: I understood that this question of oysters was in the hands of the provinces?


John Douglas Hazen: That is the leasing of private beds, but there are public oyster beds still in the different provinces.


Alexander William Chisholm: Does that mean that this Government has given exclusive authority to the provinces to lease?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.	,


Alexander William Chisholm: No private individual can lease oyster beds through this Government?


John Douglas Hazen: That whole matter has been put in the hands of the provinces.


William Chisholm: Will the minister tell us what has been done at the oyster beds at Tracadie?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think any work has been done there for several years, but I will look the matter up and tell my hon. friend later. With reference to the item , at present under consideration to provide for the maintenance of a Fisheries Intelligence Bureau, the expenditure in the year 1914-15 was $6,102, and the expenditure for the present year, ended December 31, 1915, was $3,234. The main work at present carried on is the separation and publication of monthly statistics and general information about sea fisheries, and during a portion of the year when there is need, the sending of telegraphic information from bait freezing centre's to the principal fishing vessel ports of the supplies of bait that
are available from day to day. The expenditure this year on bait reports has been $1,373.04, collecting statistics $692, printing and advertising $1,060, miscellaneous $108.50. In the fisheries report for 1914-15, information is given in a general way about the daily bait report with which no doubt hon. gentlemen are familiar. They will find it at page 16.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the department received a report from Dr. John Hjort?


John Douglas Hazen: We received a preliminary report, but we are expecting his final -report during the month of May.


James Joseph Hughes: That inquiry cost quite a sum of money.


John Douglas Hazen: I have pretty detailed information on the subject. It will come up on the item for the Marine Biological Board a little later on.


John Howard Sinclair: This item that we are on now covers the expenses of the monthly bulletin?
M-r. HAZEN: Yes, the monthly bulletin and bait Teport.


John Howard Sinclair: Looking at this bulletin, the term "quantity" does not indicate whether pounds or hundredweight are meant. I understand it to he hundredweights that are meant, but I think it should be so stated at the head of the column.


John Douglas Hazen: If my hon. friend will look at the first column he will see that hundred-w eights, cases and barrels -are specified.


John Howard Sinclair: I see in the bulletin for January an account of the shipment of fresh fish to 'Great Britain. I was a little disappointed to find that it had not turned out better. The account is interesting, hut perhaps the minister can tell me -shortly whether this experiment was properly carried out and whether it received sufficient attention -from the parties who were looking after it. The fish appear to have arrived in Great Britain, in a damaged condition in so far as I can gather from the report I have here. I think it would be unfortunate if, when we started to -sell our fish in the Old Country, the first shipment should arrive in bad condition. The person in charge of it should -have taken a little more care in seeing that it arrived properly. It was frozen, I understand, and it was unsaleable or the people did not

want it. I would like to know why it did not arrive in better shape.


John Douglas Hazen: The fish were collected by the Canadian Fisheries Association of Montreal. We paid for the cold storage service and the Fisheries Association provided the fish. The members of that Association, as my hon. friend knows, are generally speaking associated with the largest fishing concerns and dealers-'in the ea'stern part of Canada. On the arrival of the fish on the other side, it was met by representatives of the branch of the British Board of Trade dealing with agriculture and fishery and, if there was anything wrong, it must have been in the obtaining of the fish in the first instance by the members of the Canadian Fisheries Association. Arrangements have been made by which Canadian fish are being sent over as an article of diet for the supply of the Canadian troops in Great Britain. My right hon. friend the Prime Minister received a telegram about four days ago- I am sorry I have not got it here-from my hon. friend the Minister of Militia and Defence stating that the fish being supplied to our troops there was giving very great satisfaction, and was so satisfactory that many inquiries were being made about it by the War Office and other parties with the view of using it as a ration for their own troops.	v


John Howard Sinclair: What kind of fish?


John Douglas Hazen: Haddock, cod and, I think, fish from the great lakes.


John Howard Sinclair: Frozen?


John Douglas Hazen: Frozen fish. I admit to
my hon. friend that there is a feeling of disappointment in my own mind in regard to the shipment, because it is evident that some of the samples arrived not in the very best condition. It is a matter of disappointment to me that the Canadian Fisheries Association, who were very deeply interested in this matter, as it was undertaken with a view to building up a business there, in which we would have participated very largely, did not see that a greater degree of care was taken to get the fish sent forward in the best condition.


John Howard Sinclair: Mr. Thomas Anderson, fish salesman, Glasgow, says:
It is quite impossible to do anything with the Canadian fish, excepting the finnans, which are of very inferior quality, and would only be suitable for a very cheap order. May I suggest if there should be any future lots coming over here that the packers be instructed to have the fish gilled and the blood cleaned

from the bone. I am sorry that the parcel should have turned out so unsatisfactory. If you wish to have them returned or sent to any address, th6y are lying in our cold store.
I gather from that, that the fish had not been properly prepared before they went there.


John Douglas Hazen: They may be prepared in
this country in a different way from that in which they do it in the old country. They might be perfectly good and sound but yet not be prepared in accordance with the requirements of the market there, and that might make a difference.
Fisheries patrol service, $190,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The existing fisheries patrol boats on the Atlantic coast are the following: 'The Princess, A, B, iC, D, E, F, G, the Nelson, Richmond, Hudson, the Phala-rope and Stea Gull.


John Howard Sinclair: These are naval boats?


John Douglas Hazen: No, fishery patrol boats.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are they steamers?


John Douglas Hazen: Some are steamers and
some gasolene boats.


John Howard Sinclair: They are not provided
with guns?


John Douglas Hazen: No, they are not for defensive or offensive purposes. On Lake Winnipeg we have the good ship, G. H. Bradbury, and on the Pacific coast the Alcedo, Bonilla, Cohoe, Elk, Falcon, Fispa, Foam, Gannet, Gull, Hawk, Heron, Kayex, Linnet, Merlin, Raven, Semiaho, Swan, Egret, Kingfisher and Merry Sea. It is also necessary to hire boats for patrol work from time to time. Details of the expenditure are given on page 382 of the Annual Report.


John Howard Sinclair: Has anything been done in the direction of securing a hospital ship for our sick fishermen? It was intimated two or three years ago that the department would consider it. We are now dependent, to some extent, on the United States for hospital service on the Grand Banks. The American Fisheries Branch have a very fine hospital ship there called the Androscoggin, Captain H. G. Fisher in command. She visited Halifax about a month ago, and was very much admired by our people.


John Douglas Hazen: She is one of their naval
boats.


John Howard Sinclair: She devotes her whole
time to hospital work, visiting the fleet out fishing on the banks, and I understand she



[Stage Direction]
looks after our sick fishermen as well as their own. Captain Fisher, who was interviewed by a Halifax reporter, said:
yVe have lots of Canadians among our patients, and they are always welcome. We have had several cases where Canadian fishermen were treated and landed at Shelburne.
I think it is very neighbourly of our friends across the line to look after our fishermen when they are sick, and I feel sure the minister will be grateful. Has the department ever considered getting a hospital ship?
John Douglas Hazen: I think the boat my hon. friend refers to has been in that service for some two or three years. Our information is to the effect that they have been .extremely friendly and kind in their treatment of Canadian sailors in need of hospital treatment on the 'Grand Banks. Of course, they treat a great many more American sailors than Canadian. I understand this vessel practically makes' her headquarters at Shelburne during a portion 5 p.m. of the year. It would be a new departure for us, of course, to have a ship of this kind, and I think it would be haTdly worth while duplicating the service when the American boat is giving all the treatment that is required by the fishermen of both countries. It is a matter well worthy of consideration, however, whether we should not pay something for this service. The Androscoggin belongs to the United States Navy, and has been specially fitted up for hospital work.


Mr. SINCLAIB:: The minister has no objection to that kind of truck and trade with the Yankees.


John Douglas Hazen: I have no objection to any truck or trade with the Yankees so long as it is in our best interest.


Mr. COPP:: I understand that the object of these patrol boats is to protect our fisheries from outside interference and to prevent our own fishermen from fishing contrary to the regulations. These are fast boats.


John Douglas Hazen: The fishery patrol service, which we have under consideration now, is a service whose duty it is to enforce the Canadian fishery laws, while the duty of the Fishery Protective Service is to prevent foreign vessels from coming into our territorial waters. There is no need of very fast boats for this service, as imy hon. friend will see.
. Mr. COPP: I had many intimate conversations with my lamented friend, the
late member for Yarmouth (Mr. Law), about fishing matters generally, and on one occasion he drew my attention to the two patrol boats that were built for the department by H. W. Embree, of Port Hawkes-bury. I understand that one of these boats was built for the purpose of patrolling the Magdalen Islands, and the other for patrolling the coast of the county of Charlottetown. According to the specifications, the boats should have had a draught of 4 feet 6 inches, but a mistake was made, and their draught was 6 fee't 4 inches. The engines were intended for a boat drawing 4 feet 6 inches, and in consequence these two boats drawing 6 feet 4 inches and fitted with these engines were very slow. A boat with a very light draught is required for the Magdalen Islands service, and the department could not use the boat that Mr. Embree built, and the other boat was too slow. Can the minister explain how this mistake occurred?


John Douglas Hazen: The specifications were absolutely correct, but they got attached to the plan for another boat, and the builder built the boats according to the plan instead of according to the specifications, with the result,- to some extent, as stated by my hon. friend. We could not use in the Magdalen Islands service the boat that was built for patrol work there, but it is doing very good service in another part of the country. Both of these boats are most useful, and have been in service ever since we bought them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I see by page R 61, volume II, of the Auditor General's Report, that the Hudson was engaged in the fisheries patrol service. How big a boat is it?


John Douglas Hazen: Fifty feet long, eleven feet wide, draught four feet six, standard^ gasoline engine of 32-37 h. p.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I see that two items, totalling $349145, have been charged up against this boat for fuel; 490 gallons of gasolene and 995 gallons.


John Douglas Hazen: The Hudson was purchased before I came into the department, from Mr. Elkin, of St. John. The boat has been used in my hon. friend's constituency to some extent?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: The word " fuel " refers to gasolene, the fuel used on both the boats.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I could not understand why the word " fuel " was used in one place when the other two references to gasolene were put as "gasolene


John Douglas Hazen: The items are charged under the heading of fuel.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I notice there are 490 gallons at 20 cents, and 995 gallons at 25 cents. There was considerable talk in my district as to why 5 cents more should be given to Mr. C. H. Mitton than to the Imperial Oil Company.


John Douglas Hazen: The difference may be
caused toy the fact that the price of gasolene has gone up, and the purchases were made at different times.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The Imperial Oil Company
have a tank at Fort Elgin from which they supply gasolene.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know what the
facts are, but the price of gasolene has gone up.


William Chisholm: I would
like to ask the minister whether he is doing anything in the way of implementing the promise made by the Prime Minister in 191>1, when he was leader of the Opposition, with respect to furnishing free medicine to the fishermen. There is a great deal of complaint on the part of the fishermen that they are not being used as generously and as fairly as they should be, and they had expected that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, coming as he does from the Maritime Provinces, would have a great deal oi sympathy for the Prime Minister, and would endeavour as far as possible to see that those pre-election promises were carried out. Of course, very few of them have been carried out, and there is not a great deal of sympathy and co-ordination amongst-the ministers so far as we can gather; but that should not apply as between the Minister oi Marine and Fisheries and the Prime Minister, seeing that they both come from the Maritime Provinces. The fishermen are complaining that, instead of receiving free medicine, as they were promised, they have been taxed higher than ever for their medicine. The small quantity of patent medicine they use was taxed about a year ago, ostensibly for war purposes. The fact, however, remains that they have to pay more for their patent medicine, and that is a great disappointment to the fishermen who were assured of free medi-

cine, because the pre-election promise w-as there in black and white, the word of the Prime Minister was pledged, and they expected that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries would do something in the way of implementing that promise.


John Douglas Hazen: This matter has been engaging the attention of the officials of the department. Up to the present time, they have not been able to frame a plan that I think is workable. I hope they will be able to do so before long.


John Howard Sinclair: The patrol boats might be used to distribute the medicine.
Mr. MfcKENZ'IE: The promise of the Prime Minister of free medicine and free treatment to the fishermen was always regarded by myself and others as more or less of a joke; but now I find that the department is committed to the hilt to this as being the fact, and that it is merely a matter of reaching a workable scheme by which the promise of the Prime Minister may be implemented. If any scheme is arrived at by which free medicine and free treatment are to be meted out to the fishermen, I presume it will be retroactive, and all that the fishermen will have to do will be just to act as the Minister of Militia said in connection with that famous man, Col. Allison, that he hoped he would keep his travelling expenses and little bills in his pocket so that they would be finally paid; that :he thought it was only fair for the people to pay those little travelling expenses for Col. Allison, and that he hoped he would have them on hand when the final reckoning came. I have no doubt the minister will inquire of the fishermen as to what their bills are for castor oil and such things, and, if he expects to get their votes, I think he should go rapidly, because there is rather a costive feeling amongst the fishermen on this subject. Now that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is committed to this, and says it is simply a matter of how he shall carry it out, we hope his policy will be announced before long.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister has not told us very much yet about the patrol boats.


John Douglas Hazen: What would my hon. friend like to know about them? The information is all in the report of the department.


John Howard Sinclair: Are there any new ones since last year?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


John Howard Sinclair: No plans for increasing the fleet?


John Douglas Hazen: No.	.
Mr. MeKENZIE: What are the smallest boats that are used in this patrol work?


John Douglas Hazen: From 45 feet in length up- 45, 50, 55, 60 feet.
Mr. MeKENZIE: Are there any patrol boats in the county of Victoria?


John Douglas Hazen: There are none belonging to the department. The patrol boats used in the county of Victoria are hired from private owners for the purpose from time to time as occasion demands.
Mr. MeKENZIE: Have any patrol boats been engaged in Cape Breton county or Victoria county during last year, and, if so, whose boats are they and how much has been paid for hiring them?


John Douglas Hazen: I am sorry I cannot give that information offhand, because I do not have it here.
To provide for a fisheries exhibit at the Canadian National Exhibition at Toronto, $10,000.


John Douglas Hazen: I explained this item fully last night. If my hon. friends require any further information, I shall be very glad to give it to them. Our expenditure in 1914-15 was $12,417.89, and the expenditure up to the 31st of December, 1915, was $10,732.87. We were given $15,000 last year;, this year we are asking for $10,000. I sent to my hon. friends opposite a copy of the bill of fare, which was changed every day. The total cost to us of running the restaurant was $3,251.


William Chisholm: It is refreshing to find an item of this kind in looking over the fishery Estimates, because we usually find pretty much the same old thing stated in the same old way year after year. This is an item, however, that is calculated to do a great deal of good, and it has already done a great deal of good. Last year I visited the Toronto Exhibition, and it was a matter of great pride and pleasure to me to hear the words of commendation spoken on all sides regarding the fisheries exhibit.
It is gratifying indeed to find that the minister is doing something in this regard. But one swallow does not make a summer; and, while we may commend the minister for this particular appropriation. I am afraid that if we analyse what has been done in the department it' will be found that all the encomiums that have been
heaped upon him by some of the sycophants of his department and published in a Montreal magazine a short time ago are not justified,-they are largely of the sounding brass and tinkling cymbals variety. The hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) last night drew the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the way in which the fisheries are given a black eye in the dining car service of the Intercolonial. I would direct the attention of the minister further to the evidence given a short time ago before the special committee of this House on the Fisheries. I do not wish to go into that evidence now, because this is not the time for it. But when you find a man like Mr. Alfred H. Brittain, who, I understand, is chairman of the transportation committee of the Canadian Fisheries Association, and also a member of the transportation committee of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, saying that the manner in which the Intercolonial is helping out the fisheries of the country is simply deplorable, and, in fact, worse than that, you realize that the situation is not all that it ought to be. Mr. Brittain declares that he never could undersand why they dropped the refrigerator and cold storage service on the Intercolonial. This service was established by the late Government but it was dropped by the present Administration. And we are told by Mr. D. J. Byrne, President of the Canadian Fisheries Association, that the refrigerator service was dropped. So, instead of going ahead, we are going back. The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) pointed out that there had been no advance, no real progress, made in the fishing industry in a quarter of a century. The attempt was made a few years ago to make progress by the inauguration of a refrigerator express service, but the present Minister of Railways out that out. Of course, he blamed it on the war-everything is blamed on the war. But nobody takes any stock in that. The fact is, the Minister of Railways is not in sympathy with the idea, he is not in sympathy with the people of the Maritime Provinces. That is apparent in the whole operation of the Intercolonial, from the appointment of officials at the head of it down throughout the whole service.
What I rose for was to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the necessity of waking up the Minister of Railways and getting him to put us back where we were before. If he cannot get the Minister of Railways to help in

the efforts (o advance the fishing industry, let him try to check that hon. gentleman in doing injury and in thwarting the efforts of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries h'mself. The Minister of Railways, by the manner in which he has treated the refrigerator-oar service, and in the way he conducts the dining-car service on the Intercolonial, has done a great deal of injury to the cause.


William Pugsley: Surely my hon. friend from Antigonish (Mr. William Chisholm) is sufficiently serious to demand an answer from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. Gan it be true that the Minister of Railways has abandoned the express service fo- fish from the Maritime Provinces? Surely that cannot be true.


John Douglas Hazen: No, that is not the case.


William Pugsley: Then, I think the minister should explain.


John Douglas Hazen: The whole matter appears in the report of the department of this year. There are two branches to the complaint of my hon. friend from Antigonish. One is the price charged for fish in the dining cars of the Intercolonial.


William Chisholm: And the quality.


John Douglas Hazen: The point made by the hon. mentber for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) last night was the price. But I think the same price prevails now as has prevailed since the a la carte service was introduced, and the same as on the Canadian Pacific railway and other lines in competition with the Intercolonial.. But in any case, that is a matter to which the attention of the Department of Railways should foe drawn. As to express service charges, the report says:
It was the hope of the department that when it was shown to the express companies that a large business could be done in the transportation of fresh and mildly cured fish, if proper facilities and cheap enough rates were made available, they would afford such, and the Government would thus he relieved of the necessity for paying any portion of the charges.
This policy was adopted years before I came into office.
Up to the moment, they have shown no-disposition to reduce their rates;-
That matter has been thoroughly thrashed out by the Committee on Marine and Fisheries that will report in a day or two:

-hut even if they do not, experience is indicating that the time is approaching when the business will foe large enough to enafole it to he handled practically altogether in refrigerator cars hauled by fast freight. Shipments now going forward in such cars reach their destination in perfect condition, which is not always the case with consignments packed in ice in ordinary express cars. Already the shipments brought from Canso-via Mulgrave-and Halifax for the Friday markets in Montreal, Toronto, etc., have reached carload proportions, and are regularly forwarded in refrigerator cars by fast freight. Indeed, the only difficulty to having the daily shipments forwarded by fast freight is the late date at which the wholesale dealers are able to procure their orders. What seems to he needed then is the education hy the wholesalers of the retailers to the desirability, in their own interests, of the latter placing their orders a few days in advance-By so doing they will not only he assured of receiving their fish in perfect condition, but at cheaper prices than if forwarded by the more expensive express method.
In other words, the advice is given to dealers, now that the business is reaching such large proportions, and the freight service is so satisfactory with the refrigerator cars, that they should have their fish forwarded in that way rather than by express cars, in which the service is not as good as it should he-I have no hesitation in saying that, for there has been considerable criticism of the service-and in which it costs thepi more than by the freight cars. The express service is still available, $s it has been.


William Chisholm: Evidently the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is ready to take the statement of the theorists of his department as against the evidence of practical, common sense men, who know what they are talking about. Let him refer to the evidence of Mr. Brittain, to whom I have referred. I do not want to go into the evidence, but evidently the minister is entirely under a misapprehension as to the facts, so far as the Intercolonial is concerned, and needs enlightenment on the subject. Therefore I venture to refer to a matter that has not yet been reported upon, although in doing so I may be out of order. I wish to refer to No. 1 of the official report, taken on Monday, February 21, 1916. Mr. McCurdy asks Mr. Brittain the following question:
What is the reason the refrigerator express service was dropped? Was there not sufficient volume of business?
The answer is:
I could never understand up to this day why' that service was dropped. I believe it was the nucleus to a successful operation; it was the

forerunner of the freight service; it gradually introduced the fast freight service.
There is evidence that the service was dropped. Again, toy referring to page 7, we see how much encouragement is being given to the fishing industry.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not want to go into this matter, because it has not been reported upon, tout if the hon. gentleman wishes to go into it he ought to read the statement made by Mr. Found on that very point.


William Chisholm: With all due respect to Mr. Found, I prefer to take the evidence of Mr. Brittain, who is familiar with the practical side of this question.' No doubt Mr. Found is an expert on fish, but when it copies to the question of transportation I do not know who is in a better position to give evidence than Mr. Brittain. He says further:
The whole trouble, in so far as I can see it, is that there is no encouragement given to "fresh, perishable and mildly cured fish through a fast freight service.
I am finding fault, not with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, tout with the Minister of Railways. On page 8 Mr. Brittain gives the following evidence:
Q. Now you are speaking of express cars?- A. Yes.
Q. Now what about freights?-A. In so far as freight is concerned, I am now referring to the Maritime Provinces; up till within four months ago we had a very satisfactory service on the Canadian Government railways, but unfortunately since then they have been overloaded with business through a condition arising from the war which we have in Europe.
He states that in so far as freight is concerned they had a satisfactory service up to four months ago; unfortunately, the service got bad, at that time. Again, at page 38, Mr. Byrne, President of the Canadian Fisheries Association, gives evidence to the effect that we are not getting a satisfactory service:
Q. The main point, you say, is this: that you pay the express companies high rates for a good service and that they are not in return giving you the service that you are entitled to. Is there any other way out of it? Instead of running your fish through the private express companies, is there a way out by the Intercolonial keeping the business in its own hands? Do you think it would be possible for it to do so?-A. I think the best method of handling the fish business Is by developing it and by increasing the shipments offer; the best means of improving the transportation would be for the railway companies to give a better service, a refrigerator freight service; they should provide refrigerator cars, properly built, properly iced and give a quick service.	,
2417
Q. A quick freight service?-A. A quick freight service, and make it a really quick service. They could improve it a great deal; there is no reason why there should be so much difference in time between express and freight. We have had it proven in connection with other commodities, where we have competition, that they can give a quicker service.
Later on toe speaks of the kind of service they get down there. It is a fact that it takes six or seven days for fish to get from the Maritime Provinces to Montreal. That is not exceptional; it occurs quite frequently. The complaint of the dealers in fish in the large cities is that the transportation service is not satisfactory. I am not finding fault with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries; I am asking him to direct the attention of the Minister of Railways to a condition that is absolutely unjustifiable, according to the evidence of men who are best competent to judge, namely, those who are in the business and are thoroughly conversant with every detail of it in the city of Montreal and elsewhere. There is a good deal of evidence here on this point that I might read, tout it is not my purpose to go into it just now. Furthermore, the Minister of Railways,	a few years
ago, increased the freight rates and charges	and changed	the quantity
making up a car lot. Formerly, from 20,000 to 25,000 pounds would make a car lot; that amount has been increased to about 30,000 pounds. In other words, a man who wishes to ship must have a greater bulk of fish before he can get the car rate; besides, the car rate is higher. I contend that in this respect the fishing interests of the Maritime provinces have been unfairly treated.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall have much pleasure in calling the attention of the Minister of Railways to the criticism that my hon. friend makes, and of asking him to read in Hansard what the hon. gentleman has said. This whole matter, however, has been very fully discussed in the Committee of Marine and Fisheries, which will shortly be making a report to the House. No doubt there will be some discussion of the report, when this matter can be brought up and ventilated.


John Howard Sinclair: In reading from the Fisheries report, the minister, read an item which indicated that a refrigerator car service toy fast freight would be a sufficient substitute for the express service. I do not think the person who wrote that understood what he was talking about, be-



cause you cannot substitute the one lor the other. The express service .is for small packages, to he delivered at the 'different stations along the railway from the place where the fish is caught to the city of Montreal. The refrigerator car, however, that is made up at Halifax or Mulgrave, runs through without -stopping anywhere except to change engines at Campbellton and one or two other places. At these stops they do not allow any freight to be taken on or off, -so the refrigerator oar service can never take the place of the express service. We are without any express service on the Intercolonial railway that is any good. The express service that we have is in a car heated with steam pipes, and the fish which are put in a box of ice in that car arrive in Montreal in a bad condition, soft and unfit for the market. When the minister is discussing this matter with the Department of Railways, he .must insist on there being an express service as well as a freight service if he is desirous of giving the fish trade from the Maritime Provinces any chance.


William Pugsley: If I have any objection to the view of the hon. member for Antigo-nish it is that he is entirely too mild in the opinions that he has expressed with regard to the liability of the Government for what evidently is their utter failure to encourage the fishing industry of the Maritime Provinces so far as a market is concerned. My hon. friend says that he does not blame the Minister of Marine and Fisheries; he blames the Minister of Railways. I think that the sooner we get rid of the idea that the head of one department may be very culpable and other members of the Government in no way to blame, the better. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries is just as responsible and just as culpable as the M-inister of Railways in connection with this matter, and he must take the responsibility just the same as the Minister of Railways. The statement -made by the member for Antigonish and the member for Guysborough that there is really no express service for fish between the Maritime Provinces and Upper Canadian cities at the present time, is a surprising statement, and one that requires immediate attention. Some years ago, in order to encourage the securing of a market in the inland cities of Canada for the fish of the Maritime Provinces, an express service was established -so that the fish could be quickly delivered from the point of shipment to the upper Canadian markets. It was recognized that

it was desirable not only to have an express service on the Intercolonial railway, but that the Government should pay a portion of the charges made by the express companies. Now that has been done away with, and the Government is asking the fishermen to rely upon a fast freight service under which, as it was stated in the committee, fish cannot be delivered to the upper Canadian markets inside of eight days or so. That is calculated to interfere very much with the trade, and I do not think that the minister should put the matter off by telling us that in a few days there will be a report by the Fisheries Committee. The fact is not denied that the express service, which we have had in the past, has been discontinued. My hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) states it positively, and so does my hon. friend from Antigonish (Mr. W. Chisholm). We ought to have a better explanation from the minister than we have had yet as to why this backward step has been taken. My hon. friend the minister has been taking a great deal of credit to hirqself for the efforts that are being made to get a market for the fish of the Maritime Provinces. If report is correct, he has even taken steps to supply Canadian fish to the Canadian forces at the front, and yet here, with a market in the cities of -the upper provinces open to our fishermen, the Government has taken this backward step which those engaged in the fishing business say is exceedingly detrimental to their business.
Mr.- HAZEN: JMy hon. friend is mistaken entirely in this matter. We have practically the same express service in operation on the Intercolonial railway as that to which my hon, friend refers. We have the same service with regard to the carrying of fish from the Lower Provinces, and that it has not proved a failure is shown by the fact that the markets of Montreal, Toronto, and other Canadian cities, are to-day supplied entirely with Canadian fish, whereas previously they were supplied with fish from the United States. The arrangement under which that was brought about still continues, so far as freight and express services are concerned. What was referred to by my hon. friend fron Antigonish (Mr. William Chisholm) is a service that was instituted for the first time in 1913, and which was continued for a period of no less than two years, and not ' the service which my hon. friend from St.

John has in mind. In 1913, an arrangement was entered into by which an express refrigerator car was to leave Mulgrave on one day in each week, the Government guaranteeing that the contents of that car would be at least 10,000 pounds, and that they would pay any deficiency as between the weight of the contents of the car and a freight of 10,000 pounds. That car ran once a week from Mulgrave, and it was hoped and expected that the business would increase to such an extent that the amount of freight carried would exceed 10,000 pounds. The result was as stated by Mr. Found before the Maritime and Fisheries Committee. He says:
The service was started in 1913. It was under guarantee from the department that the earnings of the car would be at least those on
10.000	pounds. We got the express and the railway companies together to agree to reduce the minimum from 20,000 to 10,000 pounds. That, of course, did not relieve the department from paying one-third of the express charges on shipments in this car. During the year 1913, I am sorry I have not the record here, the results looked pretty good. There were only four or five days (I am speaking from memory and subject to correction) on which the minimum of 10,000 pounds was not being carried. But in 1914, for reasons which I will not attempt to go into at the present time, the shipments were not equal to that of 1913. A reference to page 15, in Roman numerals, of' the report of 1914-15, will show the details of that service. There were 34 trips made during that season, and of these 34 trips 18 had less than
10.000 pounds, running one as low as 2,700 pounds on the trip up to about 6,000, or a little more, not nearly up to, but very seriously under the 10,000 pounds which made the service an extremely expensive one. It will be easily seen that it was not doing what was expected of it. The railway company was very anxious to discontinue it,-	.


William Pugsley: Which railway?


John Douglas Hazen: The Intercolonial.


William Pugsley: That means the Government of Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: 
William Pugsley: It is on the statements of Mr. Brittain, the manager or secretary of the Maritime Fish Corporation, and a very able business man of large experience, that I place reliance, and he complains that this service was discontinued. The statement of my hon. friend the minister that the particular service discontinued was the one inaugurated by this Government ip 1913, does not militate at all against my statement that the Government has gone back upon a progressive policy which would have led to a greatly increased business. I understand that the service of which Mr. Brittain complains was discontinued only a few months ago.


John Douglas Hazen: It did not operate in 1915 at all, except in the first month of the year.


William Pugsley: It was continued for a couple of years at least, and it has been done away with. As I understand it, the objection is that while the fishermen, apparently, in many cases have preferred the fast freight service, that was because the Government was charging them so much for the fast express service. That was the reason; they could not afford to pay the charges for the fast express service. The result is that the Government is not encouraging the business as they started out to do, and, as everybody recognizes they ought to do, and the fast freight service is not giving satisfaction. I think it is unfortunate that the Government has taken this backward step, in order to save a little money. -
It is a backward step. They ought to have gone on encouraging the fast express service, given cheaper rates, made better arrangements with the express companies and

so encourage in the largest possible degree business, between the Maritime Provinces and the upper Canadian cities. I think the business is one of very grave importance and the Government might very well afford to lose some money upon the Intercolonial in order to encourage it.


John Howard Sinclair: I think the service
failed largely on account of the way in which it was dealt with. The minister himself has given the explanation why the service was not successful. The car only made thirty-four trips in the year.


John Douglas Hazen: A trip a week.
Mr. 'SINCLAIR: The daily train made 313 trips as it runs every week-day in the year. But, the business would never be a success unless a daily service is provided. The chances iare that the express refrigerator car would come a day after a storm, the fishermen could not go out to fish and there would not be enough fish to make up a shipment. If you are -going to make the business the success it ought to be, you ought to put an express car on every day, keep it on and give it ,a year's trial. This would give the dealers, especially the small dealers, a chance to do business which they have not now. The freight oar is the only available one for large shipments. 24,000 l'bs is the smallest shipment you can send by freight * car. There are very few dealers who can handle freight car shipments. This -shuts out the -small dealers altogether. That is a very large quantity and it excludes dealers who would take advantage of transportation facilities if they were available. I would like to see the minister try the experiment of putting a refrigerator car on the express train every day. Then the dealers would have an opportunity to work up a profitable business. It is getting near six o'clock, and if there is no objection, I would suggest that we get through with this item and perhaps another one.


John Douglas Hazen: 
John Douglas Hazen: The hon. member for Guysborough made a suggestion which I think is a very good one. We have now been discussing these items for a good many hours and have gone pretty well over the general fisheries -question. I understand the suggestion of my hon. friend to be that before six o'clock we pass all but two items.


William Pugsley: You might as well leave three.


John Douglas Hazen: Whatever is wanted. We will allow these to stand, with the understanding that any matter affecting the fisheries may he discussed.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would like to ask the minister if he has received any petitions from the residents of Ingonish in the county of Victoria in regard to doing something to keep the harbour ice broken in the fall of the year. I was written to and told that they had sent a petition to the minister. It seems that in December, and early in January, the inner harbour freezes and if they do not get the ice broken they can not get out with their boats. It is quite open outside the bar but it freezes iniside. Last year they had the help of a steamer that went down there, not a Government steamer, and it was of great assistance to them because it broke up the ice and they were able to get outside. The patrol boats on the coast, if they have the necessary strength, could, with the greatest ease, keep this ice broken. I hope thS minister will take it into consideration. All that is necessary is for a boat to take a turn around the harbour every morning and break up the thin ice formed during the night so that the boats can get out. If that is not done the whole business of the place will be stopped.


John Douglas Hazen: Dpes my hon. friend say that this was done last year?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It was not done by a Government steamer, but another steamer that happened to be down there on business. It was in the harbour and the master was good enough to run the boat around the harbour every morning and break up the ice for the people. It was worth thousands of dollars.


John Douglas Hazen: I doubt very much whether these small gasolene patrol boats would be useful for such a purpose. I am afraid they could not do that work without doing themselves very great damage.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There* are lots of tug boats which could be hired to do the work.


John Douglas Hazen: I will bear my hon. friend's suggestion in mind and have the matter looked into.


William Pugsley: Would the minister
kindly add to the information which he gave to the committee to-day by stating the method and cost of procuring trout fry for supplying different lakes?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Pugsley: I tried to get some fry for one of the lakes in New Brunswick, and I could not make any progress.


John Douglas Hazen: If the hon. gentleman will send ip. his application I will have one of the printed forms sent to him.


William Pugsley: It is these printed forms that make all the trouble. What I want to know is the terms upon' which fry can be obtained?


John Douglas Hazen: I shall be very glad to give my hon. friend the information.
At six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Bill No. 8, respecting the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company -Air. Morphy-in committee.
On section ,1-short title:
Air. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: The first two Bills appearing on the Order Paper are of a contentious nature and likely to take up considerable time. Would it not be wise to deal with the other Bills before starting to discuss the first two?


Frank Oliver: We are here to transact business, and these Bills are the first on the Order Paper. I do not see any particular reason why they should not be dealt with now.
Air. ARA1STRONG: I wish to enter my most earnest protest against these Bills passing in their present form. They will interfere not only with provincial and national rights, but with a great proposition of the province of Ontario, one of the greatest propositions of its kind in the world. We have had, it is true, considerable discussion in the Railway Committee ih regard to the first two Bills on the Order Paper, the discussion some times continuing over several days. Before that committee there have appeared many representatives of the Ontario municipalities through which the hydro-radial lines are proposed to run, and every one of them has earnestly protested, against the passage of the Bills, advocating strongly that we

should defer their passage for at least one year, until the Ontario Government are alble to convince the members of this House not only that they are in earnest in regard to building the hydro-radials in the province of Ontario, but that those radials will be for the general advantage of the people of that province. Letters and telegrams of protest have been received^ and the reeves of the different municipalities between Toronto and Niagara Falls, the mayors of Toronto, Hamilton, Guelph, and of many other cities in the province have been doing their utmost to convince the members of the Railway Committee that it is in the interest of the people of the province of Ontario that we should not grant these charters. I have here a few of the letters and telegrams, and, while I do not wish to weary the House, I wish to place some of the letters on Hansard. The first is a letter from Waterdpwn to the 'Secretary of the Railway Committee:
Clerk's Office, East Flamboro Township, Waterdown, February 29, 1916. To the Secretary Railway Committee,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-I have been instructed by the council of the township of East Flamboro to send you a copy of the following resolution:
It was moved by Councillor Taafe, seconded by Councillor Forth and resolved, that we the council of the township of East Flamboro in council assembled, hereby enter our very urgent protest to the Hon. Robert Borden, and his Cabinet against the extension of the franchise of the Toronto, Niagara and Western Railway Company as provided for in Bill No. 24. Also the franchise of the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company as provided for in Bill No. 8, in so far as the franchises pertain to electric railways. And that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the premier of Canada, the Hon. Sir Robert Borden and Mr. G. C, Wilson, M.P., Dr. A. F. Rykert, M.P.P., T. H. A. Regan, M.P.P. and the secretary of the Railway Committee, Ottawa. [DOT]
The above resolution was unanimously carried by the East Flamboro council on the above date.
(Sgd.) George Church,
Township Clerk.
At a special meeting of the Board of Trade cf Waterdown the following resolution was carried unanimously:
Waterdown, February 27, 1916.
Moved by Dr. J. O. McGregor, seconded by T. W. Bleakley, that the Board of Trade of Water-down protest to the Hon. Robert Borden and his Cabinet against the extension of the franchise of the Toronto, Niagara and Western Railway Company as provided for in Bill No. 24 in so far as this Bill pertains to the electric railways, which Bill had its first reading before the House on February 9, 1916. And that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the members of the Ontario House and Federal 
House for Wentworth and also to the Chairman of the Railway Committee at Ottawa.
(Sgd.) C. P. McGregor,
President.
(Sgd.) P. D. Shorey,
Secretary.
At the same special meeting this resolution was carried:
Waterdown, February 28, 1916.
Moved by M. J. Crane, seconded by E. Fielde, that the Board of Trade of Waterdown protest to the Hon. Robert Borden and his Cabinet against extension of the franchise of the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company as provided for in Bill No. 8 which had its first reading before the House on January... 1916, ' and that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the members of the Federal Government and Ontario Government for Wentworth and the Chairman of the Railway Committee at Ottawa.
(Sgd.) C. P. McGregor,
President.
(Sgd.) P. D. Shorey,
Secretary.
This is a lettergram from St. Catharines to the Chairman of the Railway Committee:
Grantham township council reiterates its opposition to extensions or renewals of electric railway charters in this district that it would seriously interfere with projected hydro-electric railway line through the municipality.
(Sgd.) F. Stewart, Reeve.
This is a further lettergram from St. Catharines to the Chairman of the Railway Committee:
Louth township council strongly opposes Bills extending and renewing electric railway charters that will seriously interfere with projected hydro-electric railway through this municipality.
(Sgd.) C. H. Claus, Reeve.
This is a further lettergram from St. Catharines :
Niagara district Hydro-radial Union representing all municipalities in counties of Lincoln, Welland and Haldimand reaffirms its objection to extending or renewing certain electric railway charters which would seriously interfere with projected hydro-radial lines in Niagara peninsula.
(Sgd.) W. B. Burgoyne,
President.
I also wish to place on Hansard a letter from the City Clerk's office of the city of Hamilton addressed to the Chairman of the Railway Committee:
March 20, 1916.
Sir,-The following is a copy of a resolution passed by the Board of Control of the city of Hamilton in conference with the aldermen, at a meeting held to-day (March 20, 1916).
I have the honour to he. Sir,
/ Tour obedient servant,
H. L. Barr,
Secretary, Board of Control.

Moved by Alderman J. H. Plunket, seconded by Alderman J. Hodgson:
"That His Worship Mayor Walters, and Alderman Chas. Peebles, be authorized to attend at Ottawa to oppose the extension of the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto railway and also the extension of any other lapsed and forfeited charters for all railways which threaten to obstruct Hydro-Radial development and that the city's representative for West Hamilton be requested to oppose said extensions and particularly any further concessions to private companies re electric railways in the Toronto and Niagara districts which come before the Railway Committee at the House of Commons at Ottawa; and that a copy of this resolution be forwarded by the secretary of the board to Mr. T. J. Stewart, M.P. for West Hamilton and Mr. Gordon Wilson, M.P. for Wentworth and to the' chairman of the Railway Committee of the House of Commons at Ottawa."
This is a letter from Niagara Falls, Ont., to the Chairman of the Railway Committee:
Dear Sir,-Enclosed you will please find copy of a resolution which was passed by the Niagara Falls Trades and Labour Council, which is self explanatory.
We would appreciate it very much if you will give the subject matter contained in the enclosed resolution your careful consideration.
I remain,
Yours truly,
(Sgd.) David Wagner,
Secretary.
Whereas the Mackenzie-Mann interests have had charters for railways granted to them by the Government, and
Whereas these charters have been in existence for a number of years, and the Mackenzie-Mann interests apparently have made very little effort to construct the railways said charters were granted for, and
Whereas the Hydro-Electric Railway Association of Ontario is an organization of the public, organized for the purpose of operating electric railways in the province of Ontario for the benefit of the public, therefore be it,
Resolved, that in the opinion of the Niagara Falls Trades and Labour Council there should be no renewal or extension of these charters granted in the province of Ontario for electric railways, and that no obstacle should be placed in the way of the Hydro-Electric to prevent it from being a success.
I might continue to refer to many municipalities which have sent forward most earnest protests. These are the names of the representatives of some of the municipalities who are anxious to do their utmost to defeat this measure: W. H. Myers, Secretary Stratford Public Utilities Commission; W. J. McCully, President Board of Trade, Stratford; E. C. West, town clerk, Campbell-ford; H. Mahonney, mayor, Guelph; B. Mc-Nichol, Water and Light Commissioners, Woodstock; A. G. Willson, Municipal Corporation Township of Bertie, Ridgeway, Ont.; H. iL. Barr, Secretary Board of Control, Hamilton; David Wagner, Secretary Trades and Labour Council, Niagara; Wm.
Stevens, Secretary Trades and Labour Council, Peterboro; Jos. Battle, Mayor town of Thorold; Water and Light Commission, town of Goderich; F. Stewart, Reeve Grantham Township Council, St. Catharines; C. H. Claus, Reeve Louth Township Council; W. B. Burgoyne, President Niagara District Hydro-Radial Union, representing all municipalities in counties of Lincoln, Welland and Haldimand; Thos. Hall, Trades and Labour Council, Guelph; John Morrison, city clerk, Woodstock, Ont. These are a few of the men who have sent most earnest protests against the passing of this charter. The Provincial Government of Ontario have also taken an interest in this question. They are responsible for placing before the people the great hydro-radial proposition; and after the success obtained in the Hydro-Electric organization, under which over $30,000,000 of the people's money in Ontario has been devoted to the development of hydro-electric power, and which is extending its operations in the eastern part of the province, it can be readily understood that they are most anxious that what is practically the key to hydro-radial development in Ontario should not be taken away. On the 8th March, the following resolution was passed unanimously by the Ontario Legislature. It was moved by Hon. Mr. Lucas, the Provincial Treasurer, and seconded by Hon. Mr. McDermott, the Minister of Public Works:
That this House reaffirms its opposition to the renewal of charters hy the Parliament of Canada to local electric railways in the province, and the removal of such railways beyond the jurisdiction of this Legislature, hy declaring that it will be for the general advantage of Canada.
This resolution, as I have said, was passed unanimously, which means that both the great political parties of Ontario stand behind this great Hydro-Radial proposition. That being so, it seems to me most, unfair for this Parliament to force upon them legislation which will materially interfere with the development of this great hydroradial policy. There is no question in my mind that it will be necessary for the local Government of Ontario to build the hydroradial lines between Toronto and Niagara Falls. And if you grant the Canadian Northern railway a charter,' to that extent you will interfere with the successful development ,of this scheme.	,


Mr. WILLIAM SMITH:: How so?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: In this way. The estimated cost* of one of these lines is


James Joseph Hughes: What is the use of my bon. friend making this argument when the Government that he is supporting is going to pass this Bill P


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: This is not a Government measure. Members on this side of the House, as well as on the other side, are free to deal with these questions as they think best.


James Joseph Hughes: I approve of what the hon. gentleman is saying, but it is going to have no effect.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I hope that the statistics which I am placing on Hansard will have some definite effect, and that the hon. gentleman, with many other members on that side of the House, will support the hydro-radial proposition instead of the Canadian Northern Railway Company in this regard. I have called attention to the enormous amount of land grants and subsidies that have been granted to this railway company. We are told that they are not in a position to go ahead and build the road from Toronto to Niagara Falls. I do not feel like taking up the time of the committee to-night in going into the financial condition of the Canadian Northern railway ; I know that the members on both sides of the House realize that, so far as that is concerned the directors of that railway are not justified in building the road between Toronto and Niagara Falls, thereby expending $13,000,000. If the Canadian Northern Railway Company have $13,000,000 to expend on that road, how much better and wiser it would be for them to place proper rolling stook on their road to take care of their traffic, to build branch lines, for dozens of which they have received charters, and to take care of the traffic in the West. We have a Bill presented by the Minister of Railways for the purpose of compelling other railroads in Canada to place on the Canadian Northern Railway lines in the western provinces a sufficient amount of rolling stock to take care of the grain which the Canadian Northern railway is unable to move from the districts through which it passes. How unfair and unreasonable it is to ask the men who have settled along these branch lines, not only of the Canadian Northern railway but of other railway companies, which are just as guilty in that regard, to go to the expense of carrying their products to the main lines of railway in order to develop our great western plains. How much better it would be for those
settlers if the Canadian Northern railway were to spend the money in the betterment of their roads, in improving the terminals, in double-tracking where necessary, in placing proper rolling stock where it should be placed, in perfecting their system, and in entering into traffic arrangements with the Hydro-Electric on their line of railway from Toronto to Niagara Falls.
I cannot help but feel that the pioneer period of railway building in this country has passed, and that the development of our railways should be carried on under saner and wiser management. Let us put a stop to the latitude which we have shown in granting railway charters; let us not act so heedlessly and recklessly as we have done in the past in giving charters to individuals without investigation. Tens of millions of the people's money have been wasted through allowing railroads to parallel each other. Let us consider for a few moments the enormous amount of capital that has been wasted through railroads paralleling each other. Go to the province of Manitoba; it is estimated by railway statisticians that within a radius of ten miles of each railway, the duplication in the province amounts to 40 per cent. Take the situation in the East, if you will. Take the case of the Grand Trunk Pacific from Quebec to Moncton on which portion we spent over $35,000,000, thereby practically paralleling the Intercolonial railway.


William Pugsley: It is a long distance
from the Intercolonial.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It may be, but the hon. gentleman is well aware that the ties on that portion of the Transcontinental are rotting and the rails are rusting.


William Pugsley: I am not aware of anything of the kind; on the contrary the road is in splendid condition. The rails are first-lass, the ties .are good, and the roadway is in first-class condition.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is very satisfactory from the hon. gentleman's standpoint, but we must remember that ties do rot and rails do rust. That road has been completed for some five years, and mighty little traffic has gone over it. How could it be otherwise than rusting and rotting? , .


William Pugsley: That road has been completed for four or five years, and this Government has been in power for four or five years. Why have they allowed it to get into that condition?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Because of the reckless and wilful mismanagement of hon. gentlemen opposite in connection with the construction of the Quebec bridge.


William Pugsley: This Government has been operating the road for several years.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is true, but it is like many other burdens that were placed upon this Government. It was compelled . to operate this road and operate it at a serious loss to the people of Canada owing to the wilful and reckless mismanagement of hon. gentlemen opposite. We have gone on building railways far in advance of the needs of the districts through which they run and we should put a stop to it. In view of the fact that in Canada to-day we have invested in railways over $2,000,000,000," and taking into consideration the amount of traffic over tlhese roads, we must realize that, if we are to pay interest on the cost of building and of upkeep, freight and passenger rates in this country will not decrease for some time to come.
I was calling attention to the parallelling of railways. Go if you will to Edmonton, and you will see the Canadian Northern railway and the Grand Trunk Pacific railway parallelled between Edmonton and the mountains. Those of you who have travelled over them must realize that an enormous amount of money has been wilfully wasted in the building of these parallel roads. In England we find a very different state of affairs. We find that there they have a certain definite policy in regard to railway building and development, and that it is impossible for individuals, or for any body of men, to go ' before the Government and obtain a charter to build a railway without the charter coming before a competent board of men who are thoroughly conversant with railway statistics and with the needs of the district through which the railway is likely to pass. What they have accomplished in England during the last couple of years has been largely due to the fact that the railways are built through districts where they give the greatest service. The Railway Commission ought to have something to say, or, at least, they should be able to place before the Railway Commission definite statements of fact in regard to the needs of the' district through which it is proposed to build a railway. One of the questions that Parliament will have to deal with in the next few years will be the public ownership, control and

management of two great transcontinental railways in this country. It is well for us to look ahead in granting charters such as these now before the committee and see to it that we do not place any extra burdens on the people in that regard. We will not need to debate the question:	Shall we
build battle cruisers or submarines after this war is over, but we shall have to consider the question: Shall we build more railways without proper investigation by some tribunal which is not only independent but qualified to make such an inquiry?
Let me direct the attention of the committee for a moment to the Ontario Hydroelectric proposition. The Hydro-Electric Commission is not here asking for bonuses or subsidies. It is here asking for the simple right to build a railway, and it is opposing this charter, because it is likely to parallel the railway that it is compelled to build in order to develop its hydro-raidiai railway sclieme. The Ontario Government and the people of that province have decided in favour of hydro-electric development. In most of'the municipalities in Ontario to-day we find the hydro-electric service being developed and light, heat and power being furnished to the people at cost. There are very few municipalities to-day that will not hold up both hands in favour of hydro-electric development being carried on in conjunction with hydroradial development. Most of the municipalities which have been provided with light, heat and power by the Hydro-Electric Commission are anxious that these radial railways should be built. The HydroRadial Commission are now spending $4,251,000 on new terminals in Toronto. This has been voted by the people of Toronto and they are anxious that every assistance should be given them in the way of developing hydro-radials going into that city. The sum of $14,000,000 has been voted by municipalities to build hydroradial railways between Toronto and London and $5,000,000 of that $14,000,000 is to be devoted to the development of hydro-radials between Hamilton and Toronto. The sum of $4,700,000 has been voted for lines east of Toronto and there will be required $2,250,000 more to complete the acquisition of a satisfactory entrance into Toronto. Within the last two months the provincial government of Ontario have purchased 20 plants in the eastern portion of Ontario at a -cost of $8,000,000. They purchase these plants not only for the purpose of developing hydro-electric but for the purpose of developing

hydro-radials connecting with these different municipalities. We should do everything we can to assist them in this proposition. The proposition that is made through the charters you are asked to pass upon to-night will entail an expenditure of at least $13,000,000 for terminal rights of way, rolling stock and equipment from Toronto to Niagara Falls. The Provincial Government have a definite policy in this regard. The Canadian Northern Railway, on the other hand, has roving charters in Ontario to the extent of 680 miles. These Bills, if passed, will simply grant to the Canadian Northern Railway Company the right to hold up radio railway development in many parts of the province. While the Canadian Northern have these roving charters covering 680 miles of railway, it is true that we do not expect that any of these lines are going to be built in the near future. In fact, the Canadian Northern themselves admit freely, I understand, that they have no intention of building any of these railways. Then why should we renew these charters granting to them the right to cover 680 miles of territory on which the HydroElectric are now making surveys, and thereby interfere with the development of the Hydro-Electric scheme?


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: Is the" proposed Hydro-Electric to parallel the existing line that is owned by a Hamilton company, and which runs from Hamilton to Grimsby?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I remember the hon. gentleman asking the same question of Sir Adam Beck when the Bill was before the Railway Committee. Sir Adam Beck explained to him that the electric railway running out of Hamilton is only a rural railway running along the highway, while the hydro-electric railway will be built on their own property, purchased by themselves, and built on the highest standard as far as rails and ties are concerned, in order that they will be able to carry rolling stock quickly over that road. It will be impossible for them to take over the little line which the hon. member for Simcoe has referred to.


William Humphrey Bennett: Then this proposition is to ruin an existing railway by competition?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is what I might expect the hon. gentleman to say. Sir Adam Beck called the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that that was a local line, simply running on the highway, and that it would be impossible to expect that
any railway which would go through that district would not be likely to parallel it. It is only a short railway anyway.


William Humphrey Bennett: Then, if it is no fault on the part of the Hydro-Electric to parallel an existing railway, what fault will there be if the Canadian Northern runs along there too?	'


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It just makes one more. It makes it that much less possible for the Canadian Northern to expect that we will be able to carry on railway development in that district with a great deal of profit. I want to hurry along, because I have an important matter that I would like, to deal with. If my hon. friend from Simcoe will be good enough to leave me alone, I will get through all the quicker. I call the attention of the committee to the fact that the Canadian Pacific Railway have running rights over these railways. It is not going to interfere with Canadian Pacific development in that district.. That is an important matter to take into consideration. Another matter I want to call the attention of the committee to is that in the province of Ontario, and especially in the part from which I come, we have a number of the main lines of the great railways. While it is true that they are giving a very good service to the people who are living conveniently to those lines, it is also true that they build very few branch lines, and that it is practically impossible for the people in outlying districts to compel them to build branch lines or to serve local needs. There are many districts in western Ontario that are badly in need of just such lines as the hydro radial will give. A map of the surveys that has already been made shows that the hydro radial will run through districts that are now ten, fifteen and even twenty miles away from a railway, and which, if the intensive farming that is carried on there is to meet with any success, must have improved railway facilities. I have been endeavouring to show the needs of the hydro radial.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is a bonus included among the needs of the hydro-radial? Are they asking for assistance from either the Federal or the Provincial Governments ?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is one of the stock arguments of my hon, friend. The question was asked of Sir Adam Beck, and he was able to say that they had no intention of asking the Dominion Government for aid.


William Humphrey Bennett: Oh, no, he did not. At a public meeting he said that he had had a promise of $3,500 a mile.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That was some time ago. I understand that they intend to proceed with, the development of the hydro radial whether they receive Federal assistance or not.


William Humphrey Bennett: They can not do it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I can not agree with my hon. friend. They are going to proceed without assistance from the Government, and undoubtedly they yrill make a success of the undertaking.


William Humphrey Bennett: Let me just read from a report of the meeting of the hydroradial at God,erich.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I am sure the committee will be glad to hear from my hon. friend a little later on.' The Hydro is also of great help to the munition 9 p.m. factories in western and eastern Ontario. Furthermore, it will carry freight at cost.
The hour for Private Bills having expired, the committee rose and reported progress.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Department of the Interior-Scientific Institutions-Astronomical surveys, $260,000.
['The matter will be given every consideration.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.55 p.m.\nMonday, April 3, 1916.']
William Pugsley: We discussed this item at considerable length the other evening, and the minister said he would give us particulars as to how it is proposed to expend this amount, particularly with regard to the Geodetic Survey.


Mr. ROCHE:: I have had a memorandum prepared by my deputy, who, unfortunately, has been taken ill, and been advised to take a holiday. It reads as follows:
The object of this survey is to provide accurately determined fixed points of reference, upon which surveys of all kinds may he based. It often happens that several surveys are made covering- the same ground, such as geo'ogical surveys, road or railway surveys, drainage surveys, military surveys, etc. Each of these surveys requires its datum as to level, and Its connection with known points, so that it may be'placed in its proper position on the general map. The first survey made expends labour and money to obtain these datums. There being no assurance that the proper standard of accuracy was reached in this survey, the sec-

ond survey makes a connection for itself, duplicating the work of the former survey. This is repeated, more or less, for each succeeding survey, and results in the aggregate to a very appreciable waste.
The Geodetic Survey aims to place permanent marks at convenient distances throughout the country, and to determine positions and elevations of these in the most accurate manner possible. This is the whole aim of the Geodetic Survey. It does not aim at the determination of the flow of Niagara or other rivers, though doubtless those surveyors engaged in such important work would find Geodetic Survey reference marks or bench marks, when available, most useful.
The operations of the Geodetic Survey are carried on by triangulation, and by precise levelling. The former determines the positions of points in plan, that is, in northing or southing, easting or westing. The latter gives the elevations The triangulation points have been found useful in the surveys of the Militia Department, and in the Hydrographic Surveys of the Naval Service Department. Inquiries have lately been made about them by the Engineering Department of the city of Toronto. They will be useful in any surveys that may be made in connection with city planning. The results of the precise levelling are of use to those making topographical surveys, such as the surveys branch of the Militia Department. They are much sought for by railway engineers and city engineers.
At many places not reached by triangulation of the Geodetic Survey, reference points are established by astronomical observation. Formerly this Was possible only where a telegraph line was available, and a large number of astronomical stations have been established by telegraph throughout Canada. They have been serviceable generally for the correction of maps, while in British Columbia they have been used largely for the laying out of the local system of survey. An application of wireless telegraphy has extended the scope of these observations, and it is now possible to determine longitudes, as well as latitudes, accurately in the most inaccessible regions. In the last two years the Observatory has established a number (13) of astronomical stations in the Ottawa river basin, in Ontario and Quebec, for the use of the Ottawa river survey, Department of Public Works. The advantage of sueh points is that they may be used to coordinate detailed surveys that are widely separated, and thereby to save the expense of the survey of intervening ground. The saving in this easily runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, while the expense of the observations is trifling.
. Mr. PUGSLEY:	What is the estimated
expenditure on the Geodetic Survey for the-coming year?


William Roche: $125,000.


William Pugsley: The survey of the Northwest began away back in the sixties, and milos and miles were .surveyed. Was not that before there was any item in the Estimates for a Geodetic Survey?


William Roche: res.


William Pugsley: Will the Geodetic Survey affect that territory?
Mr. ROCHE; No, we are not going to use the Geodetic Survey on that territory. I would refer my hon. friend to a debate that took place in the House a few years ago when he was a member of the then Government, when this question of the Geodetic Survey was brought prominently to the attention of the House by the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean), who pressed very strongly upon the then Minister of the Interior the necessity of expending far more money in connection with this survey. I have his speech here, and I could, if I desired to take up the time of the House, show hon. members the necessity he gave for that expenditure.
Mr. PUGSLEY-:	There was no war on
then.


William Roche: The minister agreed to a
certain extent with the reasons given, and the expenditure was somewhat increased during his term of office. There was quite a discussion on this question, all of the members urging the then minister to spend far more than he had been spending in the past on this -survey.


William Pugsley: Does this survey affect the latitudes and longitudes of all the provinces as laid down by the established system of survey?


William Roche: I do not think it does. It is, as the hon. gentleman knows, a species of survey that is the basis for the topographical survey and other surveys. Although the hon. member stated the other night that he had never found it of the slightest service in connection with the Public Works Department, nevertheless there are on file about fourteen applications from the Public Works Department to this branch for information in connection with the operation . of that department, and there are similar applications from the Department of Railways.


William Pugsley: There are always some
scientific gentlemen who are searching for the undiscoverable, and I suppose they would be interested in that wonderful system of geodetic survey; they would naturally want to inform themselves. But, for all practical purposes, so far as immediate necessity is concerned, this item might very well stand over. The war is on, and every dollar that can be saved to the public treasury will be needed for the purposes oi
the country in connection with the war, for the payment of interest and pensions, and for the discharge of the numerous other obligations which are arising from day to day. This matter was pretty thoroughly discussed some little time ago when the minister had his Estimates before us, and he stated that of this $260,000, $125,000 would be used for the Geodetic Survey. I would move:
That item No. 256 be reduced by $125,000 and that it be $170,000 instead of $295,000.
There is absolutely no urgent necessity for going on with this expenditure during the coming year. If there is any item which ought to be struck out, it is an item of this character.


Frank Oliver: As I was Minister of the Interior for a period, and as the work of this Geodetic Survey was in progress during part of that time, it is perhaps necessary that I -should give a reason for voting for the amendment of tlhe hon. member for St. John. There are under certain circumstances reasons for a Geodetic Survey, but those reasons are not so pressing nor so imminent that it is necessary to continue the expenditure upon that work at a time of stress such as the present. We are, Erom time to time, calling upon the Government to reduce expenditures rather than to increase taxation; and, taking that attitude, from time to time as the Estimates are under consideration we are bound to give instances in wlhieh we think the Government should reduce the expenditure., As having had responsibility and experience in regard to this matter, I have no hesitation in saying that, in my judgment, however desirable this expenditure may be under other circumstances, it is under existing circumstances an expenditure that can be cut out without injuring the well-being of the country now or in the immediate future.
In the address -made by the junior member for Halifax, he instanced the case of other countries where Geodetic Surveys had been made, but there was no comparison between those countries and Canada. He instanced Belgium. Belgium is a country as large as perhaps one or two Canadian counties, and the completion of a Geodetic Survey in a country such as Belgium, or even such as France or England, is a trfling matter as compared with -the undertaking to establish a Geodetic Survey throughout the v-ast area of this Dominion. A Geodetic Survey is simply a survey made for the purpose of establishing topography with

scientific accuracy and it has no necessary relation to immediate requirements as is the case in an ordinary survey. There may be circumstances under which it is right and pro/per to make an expenditure tor the purpose of establishing points and altitudes with scientific accuracy; but I am prepared to take full responsibility for saying that at this time, when we have such enormously increasing financial obligations to meet, the iGovemment which has charge of the affairs of the country is in the nature of things called upon to reduce expenditures wherever that reduction can be made without injury to the public service. In my humble judgment this is one of the instances in which such a reduction can be made without substantial injury to the public service.
Amendment of Mr. Pugsley negatived: yeas, 10; nays, 34.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister give ns some information with regard to the second part of this item, relating to the installation of a large reflecting telescope for the western branch of the Dominion Astronomical Observatory, the vote being $35,000 ?	-


William Roche: This is to provide payment on account of the construction and installation of this telescope in the western branch of the Dominion Astronomical Observatory on Vancouver island.


Frank Oliver: There is an observatory in Ottawa which, as I understand it, carries on astronomical research so that Canada may contribute its fair share to the sum of human knowledge on this subject. I am interested to know the definite purpose in view in the erection of this telescope and the establishment o.f a second institution for astronomical research. -


William Roche: It was felt that the astronomical observatory at Ottawa was not doing the work all the year around that was advisable. After carrying on some experiments at Ottawa, on the prairies-at Medicine Hat, I think, and other places-and at the Coast, to discover the best place for the taking of observations, it was decided that Saanich, on Vancouver island, is the best place, because of the clearness of the atmosphere and other conditions. They can carry on- their observations there all the year around. Saanich is eight miles from Victoria.


William Pugsley: What would be the cost? -


William Roche: For the dome and telescope, $90,000. The Provincial Government of British Columbia have constructed a road, and have also donated the land, the cost of their contribution in this way being in the neighbourhood of $50,000. The observatory is on a very high mountain.


Frank Oliver: I suppose this will mean that a very considerable -astronomical establishment will have to be maintained, in order to realize on the investment in the telescope. What will be the character of the establishment, and what will it cost?


William Roche: Buildings are to. be erected by the Public Works Department. I do not know what will be the total cost, but we -are not going on with the buildings at present, except one.


Frank Oliver: But what will be the staff?


William Roche: Dr. Plaskett from the observatory here will have charge, and he will have a small staff, mostly taken from Ottawa.


Frank Oliver: Is it to be understood that the establishment of this observatory does not -mean an increase in the staff employed in astronomical observation and research?


William Roche: 
Frank Oliver: I have not in mind the discussing of this item on the same basis as the geodetic survey item:	But I was
anxious for information on the subject. While it is entirely desirable that Canada should hear a reasonable part of the cost of astronomical research in the interest of the world at large, it is also desirable that Canada, in assuming that burden, should have -due regard to the condition of her finances. And it does seem to me that we might well have been content with one observatory and, one astronomical staff. When we establish two observatories it seems to me that it almost certainly follows, in the nature of things, that we must have a double staff in order to realize from both observatories. Either we have one observatory over-staffed to-day, or else we will have two observatories both under-staffed, unless we increase the number of our officials and scientists.


William Pugsley: How many 'buildings will "be necessary?


William Roche: The Estimate for the total buildings that will be finally required is in the neighbourhood, of $70,000. But only one building has been authorized to be constructed.


William Pugsley: Surely the hon. gentleman is mistaken. He is providing for the dome.


William Roche: That is part of the telescope.


William Pugsley: It is a movable portion of the building, is it not? At all events there is $90,000 for that. And in the Estimates of the Minister of Public Works, page 62, I find a vote for Saanich Observatory last year of $75,000, and. this year a revote of $25,000. That indicates $50,000 spent, and the minister is asking for $75,000 more for the coming year. There would be $125,000 for these two years.


William Roche: I think the hon. member is mistaken.


William Pugsley: I take the minister's own statement.


William Roche: The building to house the telescope, I said, was estimated at about $70,000. It is really $65,000. ^


William Pugsley: The Minister of Public Works spent last year $50,000, and is asking $75,000 for this year.


William Roche: I do not know just how much is included in the Estimates for this year. I feel pretty sure that no other buildings are going up except the ofldce building. The buildings asked for are an office building of fireproof construction, and a residence for the director and three observers, but it is intended to proceed with only one this year. It was the desire, I think, of Dr. King himself that these buildings should be erected this year, if po=7 sible, but he was informed that that would be impossible.


William Pugsley: Last year $75,000 was
provided; only $25,000 is a revote. That shows that $50,000 will be expended up to to-day, which ends the fiscal year. The Alinister of Public Works is asking for $75,000 more. There will- be a total expenditure during the year which is expiring to-day a.nd during the coming year of $125,000, in addition to the $31,500 which my hon. friend spent last year and the $35,000 which he is asking for this year.
This makes an amount, including what is spent and what it is proposed to spend immediately, of $185,000. I do not hesitate to say that that is an enormous sum of money to spend for an observatory and for the three buildings said to be required in connection with it, and to house the telescope and the other two for the director and observers to live in.


William Roche: The sum of $70,000 is being asked for in the Public Works Estimates to provide for an office building and living quarters for the observers and staff. The cost of the telescope is $90,000, and the building of dome to house it costs nearly $65,000. These are provided for now, and will be ready for operation in the early part of this year. Whatever may be in the Estimates, there is certainly no intention of erecting more than one building this year.


William Pugsley: That shows the folly
of putting much larger amounts in the Estimates than are required.


William Roche: It will not be utilized.


William Pugsley: That is no answer at
all. It is unbusinesslike and unfair to the committee that the minister should come here with Estimates which are padded with amounts which he knows will not be required in the public service for the coming year. The Minister of Finance admitted that the amount under this head is nearly $30,000,000; yet when we complain and ask for information the minister says:	Oh,
well, let it go; we will not spend it. This is made an excuse for this Government's imposing enormous taxes on the people. If they succeed in making the taxes sufficient to pay for the actual expenditure, they will come and say: we spent $25,000,000 or $30,000,000 less than our Estimates. I say that ministers should not come to this Parliament asking for a single dollar beyond what they believe to be required for the Civil Service.


William Roche: The hon. gentleman would criticise still more if we spent it.


William Pugsley: We expect you to spend what you estimate you will spend. We do not expect you to spend more than you estimate, and we do not expect you to estimate more than you think you ought to spend. One is just as reckless as the other.


Frank Oliver: I do not profess to be an astronomer or to be versed in scientific work, of any kind, but I have understood that there are advantages in carrying on

astronomical research in having observatories at high altitudes and in regions where the weather is in large proportion dry and the sky clear. If astronomical research were the purpose, I could appreciate a possible removal of the observatory from Ottawa to some point in the Rocky Mountains or the interior mountains of British Columbia. But we are informed that this observatory is located on Vancouver island within a few miles of the city of Victoria. Whatever advantage there may be on Vancouver island in the vicinity of the city of Victoria -and I am the first to admit that in many respects these advantages are not only great but many-they are neither in the line of clear sky and atmosphere nor in the advantage of high elevation. There are localities in British 'Columbia where these two requirements are to be met, but not where this observatory is located. The reason given by the minister that it was on account of the more desirable condition of atmosphere seems hardly to hold, because even though the condition of atmosphere near the city of Victoria may be measurably good, it cannot be as good as at other points in the interior of British Columbia, where immensely higher elevation and a much clearer atmosphere could be secured. I am sure the committee would be glad to hear a further explanation of the reasons why the observatory has been located on Vancouver island.


William Roche: Investigations had been carried on by the staff for many months prior to the location of the observatory at its present site. Dr. Plaskett visited all the different points where experiments were being conducted. Medicine Hat was one of the points; others were at Ottawa, on the prairies, and at the site which has been selected. The report states that better work and more work all the year round can be done at the present site than at any other point in Canada.


William Pugsley: The minister has the report there?


William Roche: I had it with me when the Estimate was placed before Parliament for the first time. I think I read from it; I do not know whether I placed the whole report on Hansard or not. Other points, of course, besides clearness of atmosphere were considered; in any -case, the experiments carried on by day and by night convinced those in charge that they could do more and better work at the site selected. An influential delegation waited on me

urging the purchase by Canada of a new telescope, which, it Was claimed, would be a splendid advertisement for the country, and would in its operation attract scientists from all parts of the world. There have been many inquiries in this connection; the telescope has caused amongst scientific men a great deal of favourable comment. I understand that it will be the best and most creditable telescope that there is in existence. Probably since the contract for it was let a telescope has been built in another country which is about as large, if not a little larger, than ours, but, up to the time the contract was let, this telescope was by far the largest in existence. After investigations extending over many months, Dr. Plaskett and Dr. King had no hesitation in recommending that the telescope be located at Saanich.
Had the conditions been ias favourable in the city of Ottawa, they would have much preferred to locate it here, as there would be advantages, this being the capital of the Dominion. But the matter was given very careful consideration and there was no lack of investigation before deciding to place it where it is.


Frank Oliver: Is the main research to
be carried on at Saanich?


William Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: And will the head of the astronomical survey be located there?


William Roche: Dr. Plaskett will be located there.


Frank Oliver: Dr. Plaskett is not the
head of the survey.


William Roche: He is the astronomer. ,


Frank Oliver: I would not like to go so far as to move that the item be struck out, but I wish to remark that, however desirable it may be that Canada should take part in astronomical research, it seems to me that we are going further than our circumstances, having regard to those of other countries, require us to go, and that we are spending money that we could very well use for other purposes, aside .altogether from the terrible stress we are under at the present time. I would not like to make any remarks that would be considered unnecessarily controversial, but I may say that, on the face of the record, it appears to me that the establishment of the observatory where it is, and under the circumstances, was rather with the view of making provision for a continuation of employment for scien-

tific gentlemen at an increased cost to the country, and with some regard to political advantage in a certain locality rather than with the view of pursuing scientific research.


Mr. SHEPHERD:: 
William Pugsley: He has increased it beyond what it was last year.


Francis Henry Shepherd: There may be some
overlapping in the Estimates which I have not in mind, but the matter was brought to my attention, I interviewed the minister, and it was agreed to provide for just sufficient accommodation to respectably house the staff, so that they could continue their work in an efficient manner. If the Estimate did not provide for that, it would be absolutely useless. I hope therefore that the committee will pass the item.


William Pugsley: Who composed the committee, of which my hon friend was chairman?


Francis Henry Shepherd: The committee was
formed as a result of a conference with the Chief Astronomer. I should be very happy to give the hon. gentleman the names of the committee.


William Pugsley: Can the hon. gentleman remember any name but his own?


Francis Henry Shepherd: Certainly, Sir Edmund Osier, Mr. Midd'lehro, Mr. Green, Mr. Barnard, and others.


William Pugsley: Who appointed that committee?


Francis Henry Shepherd: It was a Parliamentary Committee; it was simply a committee that was formed to interview the minister.


William Pugsley: A self-constituted committee.


Francis Henry Shepherd: No, Sir, not toy any means/ I resent the inference, particularly *as I was unfortunately selected to be the chairman of the committee. I trust that under these circumstances the committee will pass the item.


Frank Oliver: What is the height of Saanich mountain?


Francis Henry Shepherd: About 800 feet. It does not get its atmospheric properties from its elevation, but more from its geographical and meteorological situation.


Frank Oliver: In what year did the deputation wait upon the Government?
.Mr. SHEPHERD: It was certainly before the waT-1913. It was a delegation of members. I really think my hon. friend must concede that members have a right to form a delegation to wait upon the Government if necessary in the interest of science or anything else.
Mr, PUGSLEY: I made no insinuation against my hon. friend, tout spoke of this committee, and ordinarily we speak of a committee .as a body appointed toy some other body to attend to certain work. I understand this was simply a voluntary deputation?


Francis Henry Shepherd: Precisely.


William Pugsley: And that it was decided dt a conference between my hon. friend and other scientific gentlemen of the House to wait upon the minister.


George Ewan McCraney: We find frequently that suggestions in regard to scientific matters come from important parties calling them-
selves boards of trade. I would ask the hon. gentleman if that committee was not the suggestion of the Saanich board of trade?
Mr. 'SHEPHERD: There is no such body in existence. If my hon. friend knew as much .about Saanich as I do, he would realize that his suggestion is absolutely absurd.


George Ewan McCraney: I think my suggestion is quite in line with, some of the absurd things that have been done, because we find frequently that when something is wanted a board of trade is at once organized and a deputation is appointed.


Francis Henry Shepherd: My hon. friend has not any more love in that respect for little boards of trade than I have, 'because my experience of them is that they are a source of embarrassment. But there is no such board of trade in the village of Saanich.


Frank Oliver: After a very great deal of research by certain gentlemen this observatory has been located at Saanich. It strikes me that the conditions of a very desirable place to live synchronized marvellously with the suitable location for an observatory.


Francis Henry Shepherd: That is not impossible.


Frank Oliver: It is not impossible, but it. is somewhat striking. It must be admitted that such institutions, when established purely for scientific research, are generally placed at high altitudes and in localities where there is an abnormally clear atmosphere, both of which conditions are found in certain parts of British Columbia, but are not found at Saanich. I am not desirous of repealing the item or of breaking down the arrangement made. Of course, the arrangements having been made, it. would be folly not to carry them out. I am making what I claim to be a fair criticism as to the policy and what we assert to be the extravagance which the Government have shown in this particular case. My hon. friend has said that had the suggestion come to him to interview the Government on this subject after the outbreak of the war he would have thought it inopportune. But in the year 1913, although the war had not broken out, the condition of financial buoyancy which had prevailed up to the fall of 1912 had ceased, and we were in a condition that certainly was anything but financially prosperous, and that fact might very well have appealed to he Government, because it was evident that

we had entered upon a period when economy rather than expenditure would be desirable. The point I dpsire to make is that this expenditure was undertaken at a time when' the financial condition should have directed the Government to lesser and not greater expenditure. As to the necessity of keeping up our end, so to speak, with other countries, I can hardly agree with my hon. friend that, because Chili, Bolivia, or some other country, sees fit, because pf its abnormally favourable conditions, atmospheric and otherwise, for astronomical research, to undertake large expenditures in this connection, when it has not so many calls upon it as Canada has, this country should be compelled to keep pace with it. We have an observatory which has done good, work as far as our own needs are 'concerned, and I fancy that my hon. friend will admit that it has been fulfilling all requirements. When my hon. friend says that we should keep pace in research work with every other country on earth, even though we are in a period of depression, I maintain that the point is not well taken, and that the Government which he so ably supports is fairly to be judged guilty of extravagance in this matter.
Immigration - contingencies in Canadian, British and foreign agencies, and general immigration expenses, $900,000.


William Pugsley: Would the minister tell us how these contingencies are made up?


William Roche: The expenditure on contingencies includes the following items printing, advertising, and stationery at Ottawa, through the King's Printer, general contingencies at head, office, postage on pamphlets and literature at Ottawa, commissions on foreign help and domestic servants.


William Pugsley: Is that what would be called a bonus?


William Roche: That is where we pay $2 to local agents for every person they place upon the farm. The expenditure includes also: Inspection of employment and labour agencies; inspection of British immigrant children; Seaport and Canadian Agencies' expenses; telegrams, telephones, freight and express charges at head office; expenses re deportation of undesirable immigrants; Boundary inspection expenses; expenses re detention hospitals at St. John, Halifax, Quebec, Montreal and Victoria; expenses of locating settlers in the West:
153|
collection of exhibits; contingencies and general expenses in the United States; contingencies and general expenses in Great Britain and Ireland; British bonuses; continental bonuses; bonuses on British children; contingencies and general expenses of European agencies; grants to hospitals in the West; Salvation Army grants; Canada West Publicity Bureau grant; Women's National Immigration Society, Montreal; La Societe Generale de Colonisation et de Repatriement de la Province de Quebec; Ottawa Valley Immigration Aid Society; L'Union Nationale Francaise, Montreal; Girts' Home of Welcome, Winnipeg; Women's Welcome Hostel, Toronto; the Women's Hostel, Calgary; the Women's Hostel, Halifax; Women's Welcome Home, Regina; the King's Daughters' Hostel, St. John, N.B.; the Women's Hostel and Travellers' Aid Society, Ottawa; Catholic Immigration Home, Montreal; St. Anthony's Villa, Montreal1; National Brotherhood Council of Great Britain; miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses.


William Pugsley: What was expended on contingencies during the year closing to-day?


William Roche: In 1914-15 we spent


William Pugsley: It ought to be very much less this year, now the war is on.


William Roche: We had about $350,000 unexpended from last year.


William Pugsley: Then, about $850,000 was expended ?


William Roche: About that.


William Pugsley: Why is the minister asking for $50,000 more than he thinks will be expended during the coming year? Has any statement been laid on the table with regard to these contingencies, as the statute requires? This is a very large item, for contingencies-$900,000.


William Roche: I have followed the usual practice. I have just read the various items.


William Pugsley: But the statute requires that a statement of the contingencies must be laid on the table of the House. Let me read what the statute says - Revised Statutes, chapter 20:
2.	This Act shall apply as well to the outside service of the several departments as to the service of the departments at the seat of government.

3.	The contingencies of each department of the Civil Service mean and include only-
(a)	subscriptions to and advertising in newspapers ;
(b)	the purchase of maps, etc.;
(c)	telegraphing.
(d)	postages, freight and express charges;
(e.) wages of charwoman, and other expenses
of cleaning offices;
(f)	travelling expenses, including cab-hire;
(g)	extra clerks, to the extent sanctioned by the Civil Service Act;
(h)	petty expenses, not exceeding in any department a sum apportioned by Order in Council,
These are the only items which can come under the head of contingencies. And yet my hon. friend proposes to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on items such as bonuses to immigration agents,
10 p.m. and bonuses to British children, under the head of contingencies.


William Roche: I think the hon. member
is not showing his usual astuteness.


William Pugsley: The Act applies to the several departments of the Government; that means outside as well as inside. It says:
4.	Whenever any contingency is required by a department, whether tor an article to be furnished or service to be performed, the deputy head of the department shall apply therefor by requisition, in writing, to the person by whom the same is to be furnished or performed; and such requisition shall, whenever it can be so made, be antecedent to the delivery of the article or performance of the service.
It further provides:
13. An account shall be laid before Parliament each year, showing the amount expended under the several heads of service herein specified as included in contingencies..
-My hon. friend is spending $900,000 on contingencies, and is certainly including under that head a great many items which are not allowed by the statute. Last year my hon. friend obtained $1,200,000 in one vote for contingencies, and used the money for purposes which are not authorized or permitted by the statute. I do not wish to be harsh in my criticism, but I think the minister will agree that that is the case. Parliament desires to keep control over its expenditure, and, with that object, has inserted a wise provision in the statute. It never was intended, and I hope it never will be intended, that a minister should go on spending money on immigration in Europe, Canada and the United States, under the head of contingencies.


William Roche: This item does not refer to contingencies alone. General immigration expenses account for a large part of this

$900,000; and contingencies mainly comprise such matters as stationery and printing.


William Pugsley: The minister thinks that this item includes general immigration expenses, as well as contingencies.


William Roche: Certainly.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend unintentionally misled me before, when he used the expression " contingencies."


William Roche: The hon. gentleman had
the Estimates before him.


William Pugsley: Quite so. It may be
that my hon. friend is right, and I hope he is; but it is certainly a very loose way of drawing up the Estimates to. include contingencies and general immigration expenses in one vote. Contingencies have always been in a separate vote, for the very reason that Parliament desires to exercise- special control over these expenditures; for Parliament is aware from long experience how apt a minister is, through his department, to run wild with contingencies if he is allowed a loose rein. Perhaps my hon. friend would consider my suggestion whether in future contingencies should not be entirely separated from general immigration- expenses'. Let us consider the total expenditure during the year now closing. Printing and advertising, $185,000.
No matter what argument or plea the minister may put up for paying the salaries of the young men and young women whom he thought it would be better to retain in their positions than to close the offices, surely there is no reason for spending $185,000 in printing and advertising during this year when the war is on and under present conditions. I find amongst these items $42,000 given to one newspaper, the Montreal Gazette. Surely, it will not be necessary to spend that $185,000 during the coming year for such purposes as was expended for advertising, printing, atlases, pamphlets, maps, and so on. There is no use trying to induce immigration when there are no immigrants to be got; it is no use going to great expenditure in advertising when results adequate to it cannot be obtained.
. Then there is Advertising and Stationery $65,000. I make the same remark with reference to that. There cannot be the same necessity for this expenditure under existing conditions. It is an enormous amount, as much as it would be'possible to spend if four or five hundred thousand immigrants were coming in and hundreds

of thousands more were to be got by the extensive issue of circulars and the carrying on of extensive correspondence. This item is in addition to the first item of $185,000 for printing and advertising. Then there is: Contingencies and General Expenses at Head Office, $20,000. This is in addition to all the salaries which are provided for by another vote.
I pass over some small items, and come down to a large item: Seaport and Canadian Agencies Expenses, $50,000.	That
cannot be necessary unless in the case of a considerable number of immigrants coming into the country. I pass over some more items such as expenses in connection with work at the boundary, and I come to expenses re detention hospitals.	There
surely cannot be the same necessity for such a large amount as $20,000 being expended when there are so few immigrants arriving, because the smaller the number of immigrants the fewer there will be at the detention hospitals.
Then, I coma to "expenses of locating settlers in the West, $100,000." I venture to say that my hon. friend has not spent nearly as much as that during the current year, and he surely would not require to spend as much as that if he expected half a million settlers to go into the West. This item does not refer to salaries at all; the minister pays all his men outside of that. This item covers the contingencies of settling settlers in the West.
Then I take contingencies and general expenses in the United States, $130,000. If you will take the .Auditor General's Report, you will find that the salaries of the different agents in the United States and the salaries of their secretaries and stenographers are all provided for out of another vote; but the minister is asking for $130,000 for travelling expenses, telephones, telegrams, freight and express charges, atlases, pamphlets, etc. For the year ended the 31st of March, 1915, when there was considerably more immigration than we hope for in the coming year, the minister expended $98,000, so that he is asking for $32,000 more for the coming year. On what theory can he in his conscience justify asking the committee to vote this additional $32,000?
Then he has an item of $3,000 for bonuses on British children, and a number of small items which it is not important to keep in mind; but it seems to me that printing and advertising might well be cut in half; printing and stationery might also be cut in half; contingencies at head office might
also be cut in half. That would make a saving of $135,000 altogether. Then, coming to seaport and Canadian agencies, $50,000, surely half of that would suffice. Then we come to contingencies and general expenses for agencies in the United States, which is $32,000 more than it was last year. I think $30,000 should be struck off. In regard to contingencies for general expenses in Great Britain and Ireland, $85,000, it is bad enough to want to keep all the agents and sub-agents and stenographers and secretaries, who are provided for in another vote, without requiring this $85,000 for expenses. I think half of that item might be struck off. Then there are bonuses to agents, $25,000, as follows:	.
This is to provide tor the payment of bonus claims of booking agents in the British Isles on the following basis: fl for each person over eighteen years of age and ten shillings for each child between the age of one and eighteen. Regulations governing the payment of bonuses are herewith attached, as exhibit "C".	,
I do not believe the minister will spend half of that amount, and we might cut off $10,000. That would make a total saving of over $250,000. So that I think the minister might well strike off $250,000 from this vote mnd be well content with $650,000 for contingencies. I do not think he can reasonably spend that $250,000, and he may waste it 'if it is retained in the Estimates.
For printing andj advertising he gives to the newspapers of this country amounts ranging from $1,000 up to $40,000. He is going to spend the money just the same whether immigrants are obtained or not; but in his conscience he must know that it is going to be a waste of money, and that it will not produce any results at all, and I think the minister will be meeting to some extent the public interest if he will reduce this vote from $900,000 to $650,000.


William Roche: The hon. member will see that there is already a reduction for the ensuing year of $300,000.


William Pugsley: I had that in mind. Ii it had, not been for that I would have thought that the vote should be reduced by half.


William Roche: If I had reduced the Estimate to $650,000 for this year the hon. member would have stated that it should be cut in half. I do not think he has sized up the situation in a sufficiently accurate manner. He has, of course, given his opinion, and the House is entitled to pay every respect to it; but the officials who


William Roche: We paid it out of immigration expenditure and afterwards had it by Governor General's warrant. We utilized about $120,000 of our immigration expenditure that year, before we drew upon Governor General's warrants.
Mr. PTJG-SLEY:	Does not the minister
see that he does -not improve the case by what he says? What business had he to take the money that Parliament had voted for immigration -and use it to purchase seed grain? He had no business to do that. It was only done as -a temporary expedient, -awaiting the issue of -the Governor General's warrant, which should -have been issued in the -first instance, rather than misapply a vote of Parliament. Application should have been made at once for a Governor General's warrant to meet the emergency.
Now, the hon. gentlemen says he does not spend money in 'Canada for advertising? Did I understand him correctly?


William Roche: I stated that our policy
was not to spend money in Canada for advertising, but we have certain expenses.


William Pugsley: If hon. gentlemen refer to page K-62 of the Auditor General's Report, they will see what patronage the minister has extended to friendly newspapers.
I find here the following items: Belleville Intelligencer, $1,088 for pamphlets; Berlin, Canada Kalendar, advertising, $30; Berlin News Record, printing, $1,626.30. In Halifax, advertising matter, " Evidences of the Industrial A-soendancy of Nlova Sootia," $1,000; Halifax Herald, $3,705. Evidently my hon. friend must be distributing printing among friendly newspapers, as well as advertising. I find also the following items: Kingston, Jackson Press, $2,036; Kingston Standard, $1,003; London, Farmers' Advocate, advertising, one page, $310.


William Roche: That was a Christmas number for distribution in the United States.


William Pugsley: And some other expenditure will probably be accounted for by a holiday. It is advertising, just the same, and shows that my hon. friend did not mean exactly what he said.


William Roche: My hon. friend is mistaken in the meaning he attaches to the word advertising.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend said that he did not advertise in Canada for the Immigration Department. What he meant was that he did so under peculiar circumstances. That must be what he did mean, because that department evidently does a good deal of advertising. I find some more items here:	London, Vanderhoof Gunn Co., advertising in Canada Monthly, $246; Montreal, International Railway Publishing Co., $90; Montreal Gazette, printing Atlas of Canada, $37,206; Montreal, Imperial Year Book, full page advertisement; Journal de la Chamkre de Commerce, half page advertisement; McGill Daily, full page advertisement; National Central Trades and Labour Council, full page advertisement; Montreal Star, advertising farm labourers.


William Roche: How much are these
amounts? I notice that my hon. friend skips the -small amounts


William Pugsley: Montreal, McGill Daily, $300. It is true that my hon. friend did not 'spend as much money upon printing matter in Canada as he did in the United States . He is like the Minister of Militia; he prefers to go to the United States for certain goods. He spent in Chicago: Chas. H. Touzalin agency, $53,755. A good deal of that was for advertising. Another item

of advertising in Chicago amounts to $60,000. In Toronto my hon. friend paid but $150 for advertising, in Vancouver $337, in Winnipeg $275 and. $50 and $70. I am not criticising the expenditure; I am criticising the statement of my hon. friend that he does not spend any money for immigration advertising in Canada. A glance at these items of printing, advertising, maps, and pamphlets, which run up to an amount between $100,000 and $200,000 will show that during the coming year to incur a similar expenditure under present conditions would be a waste of money. I would press very earnestly on the minister to reduce this vote by at least $250,000. This suggestion ought to be supported by economical gentlemen on the other side of the House, particularly the hon. member for Peel, who some years ago always raised his voice in *strong and earnest tones against unnecessary expenditure. I would move that this amount be reduced by $250,000.


Frank Oliver: I have listened to the
Minister of the Interior explaining the reasons for the different items mentioned by the hon. member for St. John and setting forth why they were of the amounts appearing in the list that was read. It is a remarkable fact that under the Administration of my hon. friend, while settlement on the land has decreased by one-half, the expenditure to secure that settlement has a little more than doubled since my hon. friend's Government took office. The only reason that can be given for that state of affairs is that the Government has administered the department extravagantly and without regard to the results achieved. In 1911 there were 44,000 homestead entries, and the Estimate for immigration was, I think, $915,000. While settlement on the land has decreased year by year, until this year there will not be more than 20,000 homestead entries, the expenditure for the purposes of immigration increased from less than $1,000,000 to over $2,000,000. Last year it was a little less than $2,000,000, and this year it is somewhat more than a million and a half. That is to say, with only half the number of homesteads taken in this 'year, when there is no possibility of securing immigrants from Europe, and when there is every reason for every measure of economy that can be instituted, the minister's Estimates of this year is 50 per cent larger than it was in the year 1911. With settlement 50 per cent less, his expenditure is 50 per cent more. There is no way to meet 
such a condition, except by motion to strike out. [DOT]
We do not wish to hamper immigration effort, but we certainly expect that immigration effort shall be well directed, and that reasonable economy shall be used. The expenditure, on the one hand, and the results on the other, show that there has not been economy or efficiency. It is true that the returns show that a large number of immigrants came into the country during a number of years, but the minister will not say, nor will any member of the Government say, that the money spent on immigration was spent for the purpose of bringing into this country persons other than those who would, directly or indirectly, settle upon the land. He will certainly not say that the money was spent for the purpose of bringing in labourers or artisans to compete with the labourers and artisans who are taxpayers of Canada. He will say, as he has already said, that the purpose of the expenditure on immigration is to bring in people who will either settle on land of their own, or work on land held by other people. Judged by that standard, his immigration effort must be considered a failure.
In regard to farm help, we have it on the authority of the member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) that it was absolutely impossible to get farm help in the province of Ontario. The immigrants brought out were not farm help, and the results of homesteading in the West show that they were not homesteaders. Therefore, instead of claiming credit for bringing out such a large number of immigrants, my hon. friend will have to explain to the country why those immigrants came when they were not required in the process of developing the country. In regard to the matter of extravagant expenditure, a return was tabled last session, in response to an inquiry as to the number of employees of several departments who had been appointed or dismissed, and the return showed that in the Department of the Interior 309 dismissals had taken place, that 374 officials of the department had resigned, and that 1,651 had been appointed, making a net increase of 968 officials in the Interior Department since my hon. friend's friends took office.
I have given figures which prove that the results achieved under the smaller expenditure were more in the interest of the country and bended more greatly to its development, than the results achieved under my hon. friend's larger expenditure. I have shown that, while this occurred, he has enormously increased the number of

officials in the service of the department. Therefore, I claim that the charge of extravagance and inefficiency against the administration of this department is maintained, and that the motion of my hon. friend from. St. John to strike out some part of this expenditure is well warranted.
Motion of Mir. Pugsley negatived: yeas, 9; nays, 22.
Administration of Chinese immigration-salaries, $28,000.


William Pugsley: Will the minister explain where these Chinese are situated?
Mr. R'OCHE: This expenditure is largely in Victoria and Vancouver. It is to provide for expenditure in connection with the administration of the Chinese Immigration Act, such as travelling expenses of officers, carrying on investigations of Chinese eases; expenses of inspection of boats, carrying Chinese crews; expenses in connection with the prosecution and deportation of Chinese; for uniforms of Chinese inspectors and officers; printing and stationery, and temporary assistance and general contingencies at the offices of controllers of Chinese immigration at Vancouver, Victoria and Montreal.


Frank Oliver: What number of Chinese came into the country during the current year, so far as returns have been received? How does it compare with the previous year's return?


William Roche: During the ten months of the current year there were 63 merchants and their families, and twelye who paid the head tax.


Frank Oliver: The merchants do not pay the head tax?


William Roche: No.


William Pugsley: [DOT] What proportion of the head tax is paid into the Dominion treasury, and what proportion to the provinces?


William Roche: Fifty per cent of the receipts, minus the expenditure.


William Pugsley: Fifty per cent of the net proceeds?	*


William Roche: Yes.


William Pugsley: How is that proportion arrived at; who pays the expenses, the Dominion or the provinces?


William Roche: We pay the expenses, and deduct it from the gross receipts, and then give 50 per cent to. the provinces.


Frank Oliver: Is there any immigration from India now?


William Roche: No.
Administration of Chinese immigration- contingencies, $10,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If I am in order in discussing another matter under this item, I would like to ask the minister for some information regarding a regulation that was>
passed in August or September last year, instructing the agents of the department to *interfere with Newfoundlanders entering the province of Nova Scotia. . We have a great many people from Newfoundland coming into Cape Breton to work in the mines. They come in the summer, work seven or eight months, then go home and come back to Nova Scotia again. Our mine managers find them a very excellent class of people to employ in the mines. Last year we were very much startled to find that there was a regulation put into force to prevent them coming into Canada, and it caused a great deal of ill-feeling in the island of Newfoundland. I think the regulation was withdrawn, but I would like to know from the minister why this new departure was entered upon. It is not desirable that we should create any disturbance between ourselves and the people of Newfoundland. Of course, away out in Manitoba and British Columbia they do not feel it very much, but we regard, Newfoundlanders very much as part and parcel of ourselves, because the distance between us is very small, and a great many Newfoundland people live in the town in which I reside. We find them excellent citizens and good people to associate with. It created a good deal of disturbance and inquiry, particularly when the war was on, many Newfoundlanders going to the front, not only from Canada, but from Newfoundland itself. If there is any satisfactory explanation that the minister can give I think it would be desirable that it be given here, so that these people and the Government of Newfoundland would know why Newfoundlanders were discriminated against in this way. Did any complaint come from our part of the country and what is the reason for passing this regulation?	.


William Roche: The hon. gentleman speaks as if he were under the impression that a

special regulation tad been passed to prevent Newfoundlanders coming into Canada. People coming into Canada during the winter months are supposed to have $50 in cash in their own rights, and during the summer months $25. This regulation was put in force for a short time against Newfoundlanders, during my absence from Ottawa, on representations from certain people to the department that there were sufficient labourers in Nova Scotia unemployed to meet all the demands, and that mining men were bringing over Newfoundlanders to work in the mines. It was by reason of these representations that the department enforced the money qualification, not only against Newfoundlanders, but aganist people coming .from the British Isles, or any other country. We sent an officer down to inquire into the situation, owing to protests being received against the enforcement of the money qualification in respect to Newfoundlanders, an investigation was held by this officer and he advised that we should admit Newfoundlanders without insisting on the money qualification. It was only for a short time that this regulation was in force and we now treat Newfoundlanders as ordinary returning Canadians.


George Ewan McCraney: I have received from Mr. Ben C. Saloway, who lives in my riding, a letter in regard to immigration matters. I do not propose to read it but there are one or two suggestions to which I would like to call the attention of the minister. Mr. Saloway is an Englishman who, during the last Government's term of office, was in England as immigration agent and he is a very observant man. He writes ime that he thinks that large numbers of the industrial class of Englishmen will come over to Canada and settle. He points out that, 'homesteads being much fewer in number than they were, these men of the industrial class are perhaps scarcely fitted to go out in the newer countries situated long distances from railways. He makes the suggestion that, there being large areas in. the hands of speculators near railways, the department might make some arrangement with the holders of these lands to sell them on more reasonable terms than those at which they now offer them for sale. He points out that if these men attempt to purchase lands on the terms now offered it will only mean ruin to them. The views of Mr. Saloway on this matter are set forth in the Montreal Star of the
 1
13th of this month. I draw this matter to the attention of the minister for his consideration.


William Roche: The matter will be given every consideration.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Monday, April 3, 1916.