1916-03-03

PRIVATE BILL INTRODUCED.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 49, for the relief of Lillian May Dent.-Mr. Douglas.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. GEORGE H. BRADBURY (Selkirk): I desire to call the attention of the House to an error that occurred last night. When I was speaking of the patronage in connection with the 108th Battalion, Selkirk, Hansard makes me say:
The 108th Battalion is stationed at my own town of Selkirk. The barracks were obtained from a Liberal, a member of the local legislature. Every dollar of the money spent in fitting up the barracks went into the pocket of that hon. gentleman.
[Stage Direction]
What I said, or intended to say, was that this money went into the improvement of the property. The money did not go into the hon. gentleman's pocket. I say this in justice to Mr. Parrish, who has done everything possible to facilitate matters in connection with the 108th Battalion. It would not be fair to him to say that the money went into his pocket, and I did not say so, or, if I did, I did not intend to say so.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. W. H. Bennett in the Chair.
Arts and Agriculture-Patent Record, $30,000.
['Will the promoter tell us what this is about?\nMr. DOUGLAS.: The only explanation 1 can offer in connection with this Bill is that this is a legitimate enterprise, the purpose being to build a railway from Ed-monito southwest to a point on the Saskatchewan river about seventy miles from the city. The Bill was passed unanimously by the Railway Committee.']
Mr. PUGSLEY:: The hon. gentleman who is in charge of these Estimates (Mr. Hazen) will recollect that the Minister of Finance stated that there were items in these Estimates aggregating about $29,000,000 which the Government thought it would not be called upon to expend in the coming year. If the minister would state the items in this department that go to form part of that $29,000,000, it would facilitate the work oUthe committee.


Mr. HAZEN:: I believe that there are
such items among the votes for the Department of Agriculture, but I can hardly indicate them in advance. As each item comes before the committee, I shall be able to tell whether it is in that category or not. The hon. gentlemen will understand that I have not the same familiarity with these Estimates that I have with those of my own department.


William Pugsley: It would be convenient if the minister could get from some officials of the department a list of these items.


John Douglas Hazen: As to the item now before the committee, it is the same amount that has been voted for a number of years past. It is for the printing of the Patent Record, and is payable to the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, so that it goes from one department of the Government to the other. Copies of the Patent Record are sent free of charge to members of the House, to 272 libraries in Canada and the United States, to certain Government officials, and as exchanges. The Patent Record is sold at 20 cents a copy, or $2 a year. The amount spent in this service in 1914-15 was $25,199. The amount spent in the current year, up to January 31 last, was $18,118.71. Sp a greater sum than this will be required.
[Mr! Bradbury.]
Experimental Farms-maintenance of Central Farm and establishment and maintaining of additional branch stations, $846,000.


William Pugsley: There is an increase here of $61,000.


John Douglas Hazen: 
William Pugsley: When was the present
poultry house erected at the Experimental Farm, and what was the cost?


John Douglas Hazen: It was erected the year
before last, at a cost of about $4,000.


Mr. MARCIL:: Can the hon. minister
give us a list of the additional branch stations to be erected under this vote?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that no deci- ' sion has been arrived at with regard to the erection of additional stations during the next year.


Charles Marcil: Has the hon. minister a
list of the stations that were established last year?


John Douglas Hazen: New experimental farms
were established last year at Borden, Manitoba; Summerland, B.C., and Lennoxville, Que. In addition, a large number of illustration stations were established in different parts of the country. In the case of illustration stations, a farmer chosen in a particular community undertakes to conduct a specified portion of his farm according to -rules laid down by authorities of the Experimental Farm.


Charles Marcil: Could the hon. gentleman name -a few of the places in Quebec where these stations are established?


Mr.   HAZEOST@: The illustration stations established in Quebec are at Aubrey, Drum-mondville, Lac a la Tortue, Nominingue, New Carlisle, 'Rimouski, Stanbridge, St. Gedeon, Ste. Julie.


Mr. KYTE:: How many of these stations are there in Nova Scotia?


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that there
are none in Nova Scotia.


Charles Marcil: I understand that there
are three experimental farms in the province of Quebec?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, at Lennoxville, Cap
Rouge, and Ste. Anne de la Pocatdere.


Charles Marcil: I understand that there
is no experimental farm in the district of Chicoutimi and Saguenay?


John Douglas Hazen: There is an illustration
station, but no experimental farm.


Charles Marcil: Cam the minister give us *a list of applications for stations that are now under consideration?


John Douglas Hazen: A few .applications have been received, but I understand that there is no list of them in the department.


Mr. ROBB:: In the case of these illustration stations, what is the farmer paid for the use of his land, and for his extradabour?


John Douglas Hazen: The farmer is paid a sum of money that amounts to about $5 an acre, and he is furnished with seed. He carries -on the operations under the supervision and instruction of the officials of the Experimental Farm.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister give us any information as to the rotation of crops at the stations in the province of Quebec?


John Douglas Hazen: It is a four-year rotation, going in this order: the first year, a hoed crop, such as corn or roots, such as potatoes; the second year, .grain; the third year, clover; the fourth year, pasture.


Charles Marcil: Would the minister give a report of one of these stations and a statement of the results obtained?


John Douglas Hazen: They were started only last year, and I understand that the reports have not yet been received at the department.


Mr. KAY:: There is an experimental station at Stanbridge in Missisquoi?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Frederic Kay: On whose farm?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. C. Moore.


Mr. CAR YELL:: Are there .any illustration stations in New Brunswick?


John Douglas Hazen: No. The only places where there are illustration stations at present are in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Quebec.


Mr. CARVELL:: I suppose the amount of money involved is small, perhaps a few thousand dollars in each case.	,


John Douglas Hazen: It is much smaller than that. They pay the farmers about $5 per acre for the land used and supply them with seed.


Mr. OLIVER:: Who gets the crop?


John Douglas Hazen: The farmer.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not a farmer in the sense that some of my friends around me are farmers, and yet I take an interest in farming. It has always seemed to me that the course the department has recently taken is a great advance on the course pursued in the past. The minister will remember that a year or two ago we had a discussion in this House about an experimental farm which the minister was instrumental in having established at Fredericton and which I criticised very severely. I find in the Auditor General's Report for the last fiscal year that that farm has cost $50,278. There has been a small return, a few hundred dollars, but I think I am safe in saying that its net cost has been $100,000. It may have been of some value; I will not say it has not; but I think that even the minister will have to admit that it is not producing the results along educative lines in agriculture that we would like. I think it is in the wrong location; but we will not go into that. I hope the department will stop spending money by the hundreds of thousands of dollars in one place, and distribute it around the country so that many people will be able to derive advantage from it. I do not suppose that 500 farmers in a year would take advantage of the educative branch of the experimental farm at Fredericton, and I doubt if one-half of 500 a year do. It does seem to be an enormous amount of amount of money to expend for the results attained.


John Douglas Hazen: The gentleman who is
coaching me to-day says there are 300 farmers from various parts of New Brunswick visiting that farm to-day.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend knows
that is an annual occasion. It is all very well to entertain them there, but that is not a great advantage from an educational standpoint. I am sorry to say that in New Brunswick we are not raising stock to anything like the extent we should; we are not raising one-tenth of what we ought to. Farmers will not derive any advantage in respect to stock raising from visiting the farm. I see by the Auditor General's Report that the department has purchased for that farm cows costing from $30 to $40. At that price they cannot be pure-bred stock or even good grade stock. I have before me an item of the purchase of 5 heifers from W. E. Kirk, New Maryland, for $153. That would be only $30 apiece. What is the sense of buying heifers at $30 apiece to put on an experimental farm? I do not know why things of this kind are done at that farm. The gentleman in charge ought to have knowledge of agricultural matters. He has occupied public positions long enough. It may be that he has occupied them too long, and possibly that it would be better to have a man who had yet to gain a reputation; we might then get better results. I do think it would be better to stop spending money in Fredericton. This $100,000 ought to be enough for that place. In the first place, I think for political reasons, the department bought a farm whidh is of little value for experimental purposes. While there are a few acres of good land in the front, that is all the good land there is on the farm. They have hired men by the dozen and have employed them in clearing the land and taking out the roots and stumps; and any person going into Fredericton over the Canadian Pacific railway and seeing this farm would not buy any of it for pasturage, let alone experimental purposes, except perhaps these few acres at the front. I would call attention to pages A-24,	A-25, and A-26, in the Auditor
General's Report. The Acting Minister of Agriculture knows every foot of that land, because it is within three miles of the place where he lived until he was a man; he knows it much better than I do; and I think, if he will tell the honest truth, he will have to admit that we are getting very poor returns for this enormous expenditure.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not want to enter into a discussion as to the details, as my hon. friend and I discussed this farm in the House on a previous occasion. In my opinion the farm is admirably located. It is
L-inr. liazeu. J
close to Fredericton, within the city limits, although it is about two miles from the Parliament buildings.
Far from being a waste, I .would call this excellent land. Before being bought it was inspected by the Director of Experimental Farms at Ottawa, a gentleman who has been in the Service for a good many years, and who is recognized as an authority, and it was also inspected personally, I believe, by the Minister of Agriculture, and they came to the conclusion to buy that property without the slightest political influence being used. However, that is simply by the way. Of course, the establishment of a new experimental farm costs a certain amount of money. Buildings have to be erected, land has to be cleared, drainage has to be put in, and all these things naturally make the cost of an experimental farm in its earlier stages greater than afterwards. That is the case with the farm at Fredericton, as it has been the case with similar undertakings elsewhere. With regard to the stock, I am informed-I am not speaking as an expert; I am simply occupying the position temporarily during the unfortunate illness of the Minister of Agriculture-that the heifers that cost $30 each were simply grade heifers. What they are trying to do is to show the farmers in the neighbourhood, and the farmers who go there, how to improve their stock, even if they are only grades. In New Brunswick we have some good herds, but as a rule they are grade cattle, and the object on the experimental farm is to buy those heifers, have them covered by thoroughbred bulls, and so improve the general stock of the country, where grade cattle are largely used and there are not many thoroughbreds. To embark at once on thoroughbred stock involves a considerable outlay of money which would be beyond the reach of a great many farmers who do not farm on an extensive scale. Buying grades and having them infused with thorough-breds improves the stock, and in exemplification of What can be done along that line I am told that there has been a general production of good stock throughout the country.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope the minister is right. In addition to what I pointed out, I find this item in the Auditor General's Report: " T. T. Mersereau, Russiagornis, one cow, $30." Just think of an experimental farm buying an old cow for $30. It

takes a lot of faith in the minister's explanation to make one 'believe that they would buy that cow.


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that the stock-breeding is managed directly from the Experimental Farm here, and that those purchases have been made under the direction of the Director of Experimental Farms, whose headquarters .are at Ottawa.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I accept the minister's explanation, and I only hope the policy will work out as well as they think it will.
I do notice in the Auditor General's Report that they have been buying some good cattle. They bought three Shorthorn cattle from G. A. Jackson, Downsview, Ont., for $820, and five Ayrshires from J. F. Owen, Stonefield, P.Q., for $1,200.


Mr. JOSEPH GIRARD (Chicoutimi-Saguenay):: {Translation.) Mr. 'Chairman, I should like in passing to make a few remarks on the Estimates of the Minister of Agriculture. I have .just heard a discussion on experimental farms, and, as I understand, some of my fellow-members find fault with the price of maintenance as being too high, and criticise the purchase of certain cattle at what they deem too low a price.
Experimental farms, 1 take it, have been established in the country through the expenditure of public funds for the purpose of conducting, on a large scale, experiments covering protracted periods and such as most farmers could not undertake themselves, but which they find of invaluable benefit after the trials are made and the-results published.	.
Naturally, that experimental work entails a large expenditure without any definite financial return, but it is of great financial advantage to the people. Yet we are aware that at Ottawa, the part of the farm which is cultivated for general purposes, gives fair returns, notwithstanding that all the work is done by day labour and the salaries paid are higher than the general run for farm help.
Buying low-priced cattle has been criticised. Everybody knows that. But why were they bought? When low prices are paidv for milch cows, the purpose is to demonstrate experimentally that, even with all possible care, buying such cows is not profitable. By means of the official results of a number of experiments, the farmers may be made more easily to understand that cattle of that sort means a loss to them.
Ridiculous prices are purposely paid for stock, to prove by official test how utterly unsatisfactory will be the results secured therefrom. Then lecturers are sent through-, out the country, meet the farmers and speak to them in a practical way and make use of the statistics supplied by such painstaking experiments.
At other times, cattle are bought in the country to experiment for beef. Of course, some of the stock procured in the country is obtained at a low price, others come higher, and experiments are made year after year with those cattle. They are attended to in the same way and fed the same rations so as to make sure what animals in fattening will yield a profit, and what others will not. Those experiments must cost money to us, but the benefit to' the farmers more than warrants the expenditure.
I, for one, urge on the Government to keep on making those experiments as extensively as possible in all branches of the {arming industry, because their discontinuance would prevent the farmers from making the good money they now make; and because the Government is indirectly recouped of its expenditure.
I wish to state that -when the appointment was made of a general director of the experimental farms of the Dominion to succeed the late William Saunders, it was, as I know, a promotion given to an altogether deserving and capable officer.
I say then, that expenditure on the experimental farms in Canada, controlled of course, by the general director at Ottawa, should not be the subject of criticism from persons without any experience on the farm. It is a well-known fact that, for no possible reason would that official betray his minister's confidence, and that he gives the service all the knowledge, the readiness and the honesty an agriculturist of his standing can command. So, some of those gentlemen who are neither agriculturists, agronomists or farmers, or anything else connected with farming, had better stop entering into a kind of criticism I always dislike to hear. If in the public service there are any higher officers whom the country can trust as being strictly honest and competent, such a one is the official I have just spoken of, as all may certify who know Mr. Grisdale; so that, to dare criticise his acts, one must have qualifications and honesty much above those of the average good citizen.
Speakers have referred to illustration stations last summer. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture was good enough to establish one of those stations in my district. We

hope to see it develop into a regular branch of the Ottawa Experimental Farm Illustration plots are not very expensive and help to demonstrate the kind of management best suited to the land around. 1 here is nothing in it for the farmer who is in charge, as he receives barely what can pay for his trouble; but the plots are just what is wanted to spread among the farmers of the different provinces the knowledge of practical farming.
I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture on this improvement in agricultural education; his efforts are bound to give good results.
Certain Quebec papers have made violent attacks on the Minister of Agriculture for his providing breeding stock everywhere in the country to societies asking for them; of course there is no political preference shown. The complaint has gone that a great number of animals thus provided were unfit for breeding purposes, that they had been bought at ridiculous prices to help certain political friends, who wanted to get rid of their useless animals. I investigated and am aware of the prices that were paid. In my county the farmers who through their regular organizations, have been provided by hundreds with breeding stock of all races, know that the animals had been well selected. I have looked over those animals; they have been well selected and well bought. Some of those that have been provided throughout the country, may have been unfit, but that comes from the veterinary surgeons improperly diagnosing the health of the beasts and also because it is impossible to foresee the inability of a particular individual.
But even if the complaint were true, the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, would not be more to blame than the Minister of Agriculture for Quebec, who himself, during many years, has imported at a high cost Ardennais stallions which he sold at a heavy cost to the agricultural societies of the province and among which horses were found absolutely unfit for breeding purposes notwithstanding'all the pedigrees and health certificates signed by European and Canadian inspectors.
I have had the honour for many years to be president of the Agricultural Society of Lake St. John. We decided to take advantage of these Ardennais stallions to improve our stock. At one time, we had as many as nine stallions, which had cost us $1,000 each, and there was one of them altogether unfit for breeding, so that we had to sell him for $300, the society being out 
$700. In the Dominion Government scheme, if the animal should prove unfit, the Government bears the loss, as the stock is only lent to the farmers; while in Quebec, the associations themselves buy, pay and have to bear any loss. A man must be quite bold to write to the papers in criticism of the Dominion Government's scheme which has proven so beneficial, for the purpose of preventing its development, and at the same time, keep silent about the defects in the provincial organization. That is mere political agitation. Another great advantage which the farmers enjoy under the plan f6r-jvarded by the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, is that once they have selected a particular breed they have to keep on with it, so that every farmer may within a few years by judicious selection have a good stock of thoroughbreds, instead of what we have almost everywhere, a mixed grade which are not at all as valuable as the thoroughbreds. The Quebec Government is absolutely careless as to selection. As proof, we have the well-known want of control exercised over the breeding of the Ardennais horses. Thus it is that if you travel in the province of Quebec, you will seldom meet with thoroughbreds; you may account for it by the fact that the Provincial Government does not keep track of the work in the agricultural societies and clubs, so that the latter buy any breeding stock and go on mixing their stock at will. So that the Dominion department must keep on its good work to remedy the results of the incapacity shown by the Quebec authorities.
I must call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to the manner in which his . agreement with the Quebec Minister of Agriculture respecting agricultural training is carried out. Last year, he paid over $27,000 to the Dairy Society of Quebec and in return the Provincial Government was to divide the whole province into fifty butter and cheese syndicates,"the Provincial Government itself paying the inspectors' salaries. Prior to that the province had about seventy syndicates in operation and they did not cover the whole province. The inspectors were paid partly by the Government and partly by the cheese and butter factories, and hired by the farmers, which meant that they were not so independent of their patrons. I was a long time member of the Quebec Society for the Promotion of the Dairy Industry; I was at one time its president, and I can say that we worked long and earnestly to secure this new system of syndicates which was introduced in 1915.
It was a practical reform, but it could

not be carried out without an unfair rider being tacked on to it. The Quebec Government got $27,000 as Ottawa's share of the expense, yet being anxious to levy taxes, though not for the war they turned around and taxed every factory of the province to the extent of $15 each at which the factory owners were so indignant that a number refused to pay. But the Government took proceedings to enforce collection and of course the law had to prevail. I suggest to the hon. the minister to see to it next time that the obnoxious tax be withdrawn.


Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN:: (Translation.) Will my hon. friend suggest a means to have it withdrawn?


Joseph Girard: (Translation.) In the
agreement between the two ministers of agriculture, there, should be a way, I think, for the Federal Department to have its say; if it pays over money, it ought to make the payment conditional on the tax being withdrawn. I am no lawyer, but that seems to me the simplest way out.
When fifty inspectors were appointed, the best available men, I suppose, were chosen, without any political bias being shown. Yet here is what happened at Lake St. John and Chicoutimi. The four local inspectors, of several years' experience, who controlled the syndicates, had managed to have their cheese rated as among the best of the province. Two of them were discharged and two strangers appointed in their place. The western section of Lake St. John was so unfortunate as to get one of the new inspectors, with the result that, through his ignorance and the bad quality of cheese he got manufactured, the farmers there lost during May, June and July, $3,500. He was left there three full months and then his place was given to a stranger instead of the appointment going to one of the local men who had been discharged in the spring.
I do not think the farmers should thus be made to suffer through unqualified men being appointed. Although the last inspector was an improvement on the first importation, yet it was unfair to my county. I urge on the minister to see that in tlrs year's agreement the farmers' interests be put out of the reach of the blunders of the Quebec Government. Contesting associations are not very numerous in the province of Quebec; one should be found in every parish; their practical and educational utility is great. Tnere is one operating in my county, while there ought to be at least four. I realize the Government's anxiety in the present frightful crisis to cut
down the expenditure everywhere. But for agriculture nothing, in my mind, should be spared; its development is the one great mainstay of the country at large.
It has been mentioned in papers and elsewhere that those associations cost a lot of money with no returns apparent and that their officers were incompetent. In my district, the chief inspector, Mr. Hudon, had fifteen years' experience as inspectors of butter and cheese factories, and the Quebec Dairymen's Association intended to appoint him at some future time as expert to cooperate with Mr. Bourbeau, the chief inspector. To say that he is incompetent is a bold assertion. I am not acquainted with the others, but they all have their certificates as syndicate inspectors issued by the Quebec Dairymen's Association. They should be qualified. The influence brought to bear to minimize the good work being done by those associations was * ill-advised, and whoever is responsible is either a fool or a dishonest man.
It has been here stated that a part of this year's Budget would not be spent. Under present circumstances, the Government likely is justified in its stand. But the vote for agriculture should remain as it is, on account of so many interests being involved in that industry.
Every possible means should be taken to keep up the farmers' institutes. The farmers take to them more than ever, and their importance is much greater than a few years ago. For one thing, there has been a better selection of lecturers. With good lecturers the farmers, finding a greater interest in the institutes, spread the good news and more people are anxious to attend.
I think the House ought to be told that the farmer himself is the best judge of the speeches he hears, so that to be of use to him, the lecturers must be men speaking in a practical way, with common sense and in a language that he understands. So the minister ought to be very careful in his appointment of lecturers. The harm done by the appointment of some inferior men, cannot be overcome by the occasional appearance of a well-informed, competent lecturer.
Yearly the Dominion pays over to Quebec $60,000 for agricultural schools. I find that, notwithstanding that large amount, nothing has been done in my district. I would respectfully urge the minister, when the next agreement is entered into, to see that the Provincial Government establish a school of that kind at Chicoutimi, where it is absolutely required by the farmers. With the Seminary at Chicoutimi as a nucleus there

would be no difficulty in. organizing the school on the same footing as was done at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere.
I ask the minister to note the number of graduates that come out every year from the agricultural schools of Quebec, who, although they could have gone into the professions, have preferred to take up agriculture. As bachelors, they are unquestionably entitled to consideration and encouragement from the Government. I know a number who speak and write fluently both languages, and I urge upon the minister the necessity of helping on in all possible manner those deserving young men.
Now, as I take my seat, I wish to express to the minister my thanks for what he is doing for the farmers of my county, who, as they are progressive, derive much benefit from his favours. But one question is pressing for immediate settlement. I said a while ago that the illustration farm which the minister has kindly established at Lake St. John last summer will be developed into a branch of the experimental farms. But on account of the special conditions prevailing in my county; of its geographical position at the very north of the province; of its isolation behind the Lauren-tians which, on acount of their well-known height over a length of one hundred miles, shut off the warmer currents that are felt over the southern slope; on account also of the late sowing, every year a few weeks behind the rest of the province, due to the wide sheet of ice on lake St. John; on account of its particular geological formation;- of the dangerous frosts that occur early in the fall and late in spring, on account of all those conditions, and although the industry and intelligence of the people have made our farmers' fairly thriving, the Government should not delay any longer the establishment of the branch I Rave referred to. Note also that the methods in use in the other experimental farms of the province of Quebec cannot be of use in my district, owing to the circumstances I have pointed out.
The hon. the Postmaster General (Mr. Cas-grain) and the hon. the Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Patenaude) consented, last September, to take a trip to the eastern part of Lake St. John. They visited two parishes; they wanted to see for themselves; now they know, I ask them to exert their influence with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to have that question settled without delay, 30,000 people would be benefited; they are the settlers of that country. Undeterred by the obstacles then in the way

and the privations they had to undergo, they went bravely into the forest, where they have opened up about fifty parishes, well organized, and that are a credit to the country. The time has now arrived for the country to show its gratefulness without more delay.
I should not omit, as I take my seat, congratulating the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and the Government on the great success of their progressive policy toward the farming industry. I heartily wish that success will keep on, notwithstanding the appalling crisis now with us, and I assure the Government of my most effective support.


Mr. E. PAQUET (l'lslet):: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a few remarks concerning the agricultural work of the Dominion Government. I feel thankful to my good friend from Chicoutimi (Mr. Girard) for his always apt references to agriculture.	.
From 1901 to 1911, the population of cities and towns has increased 62 per cent, while the country population increased by a bare 70 per cent.
In the eastern provinces, the increase in the country has not been normal. The exodus from the farm to the city is much to be deplored. The Conservative Government, in view of the abandonment of farms, the scarcity of labour and the high cost of living, is striving constantly to give to agriculture the high place it should hold in Canada.
The Prime Minister, alive to the necessity of stimulating production, particularly farm production, appointed on the 15th of October, 1915, a Commission of Agriculture.
Economical conditions arising out of the war, impart still greater importance to the business of farming. The commission's special object is to inquire into the best methods of increasing production. The commissioners will seek the best means to obtain a heavier yield, improve the systems of instruction and demonstration, develop new productive areas, induce the immigration of farmers and farm hands, encourage co-operation, improve our transportation systems and find new markets. Allow me to quote the following words of the Minister of Finance:
Canada's future depends on the development of its immense resources, of which agriculture is the most essential, and that development is itself linked with the increase in the number of producers and in the means that may be given them towards utilizing their intelligence and initiative.
It is very likely that, in the financial stress which may hold for some years to come, the question of the capital necessary to the develop-

ment of agriculture may become of vital importance, and we intend, during the recess, to take up that subject carefully with a view to increasing present resources >by the intervention of the Dominion Government, if it should be desirable and for the greatest good of the country. , The Government has chiefly in view the creation of an organization to facilitate at reasonable rates loans which may be repayable on the sinking fund principle.
That question has some connection with the scheme of co-operation. Before co-operative societies were established in Belgium, agriculture was not very flourishing.
In 1903, a Belgian economist wrote as follows :
If the principles of scientific farming have now a hold on the country, if the farmers can now get, at a reasonable price, unadulterated manure and fodder for cattle, if they are in a position to secure easily the money they require, if their dwellings, their furniture, their animals can be insured at satisfactory rates, if they have been able to secure from legislation many conveniences, if they have become a power, what has done it all is association.
Denmark's salvation was effected by a complete reform in its methods, brought about by instruction and the application of the co-operative system to the production and diversification of farm produce, instead of by individual efforts.
We here must follow the agricultural policy of Belgium, France and Denmark, if we aim at making rapid though prudent strides in the way of progress.
A Liberal paper on the 27th January, 1916, published the following:
We have organized in certain localities cowtesting associations. For our Ottawa friends, it is indeed a success! In this instance again, the appointments went to good Tories, in most cases ignorant of their duties, who receive salaries of $1,200 a year.
That appreciation of the inspectors of Quebec is absolutely unfair. Hon. Mr. Fisher appointed an inspector in 1911.
Hon. Mr. Burrell has appointed in the province of Quebec nine inspectors, taken among those who had the widest experience in the dairy industry. All the inspectors have received certificates from the St. Hyacinthe Dairy school.
I congratulate the Government on having organized those cow-testing centres each being under an expert who devotes all his time to his duties.
I will now say a few words concerning the live stock branch of the Department of Agriculture. Those who would be fair to the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, are agreed that his policy concerning the live stock industry is a real help "toward agricultural progress.	.
88 ,
The Scarcity of breeding stock is at the present time, one of the main obstacles to stock raising in many parts of Canada. So the Minister of Agriculture has undertaken through the live stock branch an important distribution of breeding stock. The work of that branch assumes greater importance from year to year. The Minister of Agriculture is submitting to the House an estimate of $600,000 for the purposes of stock raising. The expenditure for that industry in 1911-12 amounted to $94,000; in 1912-13, to $100,000; in 1914-15, to $300,000, and in 1916-17 it will reach $600,000.
A very large number of farmers all over the Dominion are now alive to the advantages of the minister's policy.
According to some Liberal newspapers, some breeding stock more or less healthy, were bought by the Dominion Minister of Agriculture without proper care. They claim that the stallions and other sires have been put exclusively in the hands of Conservative friends.
This charge is altogether unfair to th,e Government. In fact, according to the regulations under which the breeding stock is distributed, the members of the various associations choose their directors, and the directors appoint the person who will have the care of the sires.
According to an article in Le Soleil, the Department of Agriculture has distributed in Quebec thoroughbreds, standard-breds and other light horses.
In reading the report of the Minister of Agriculture, I find that during 1,914 33 sires have been lent to farmers' associations. In that number there is not a single standard-bred and only one thoroughbred. There are fifteen breeders of Canadian breeds. In the county of l'Islet, one association asked for a Belgian sire and got it.
The critic in Le Soleil would not go to the trouble of applying for information at the department.
The same critic complains that certain breeding stock was bought without care and indiscriminately from the friends of the Government. The minister declares all the sires were bought by persons of experience, the purchases to be subject to the inspection of a veterinary from the Department of Agriculture.
The records of the department will show that barring a few isolated cases, all the animals received have been found highly satisfactory.
I would ask the officials of the department to be very careful in their method of distribution.



Stock raising has a bright future. At the winter fair in Ontario the Minister of Agriculture urged the farmers to increase their stock, that it was the surest and wisest policy.
Meat production begins to come up to the demand, but we can do better. Australia and the Argentine Republic are suffering from a crisis which has told on stock-raising. War has destroyed the European stock. So that it must be our farmers' care to take advantage of those favourable conditions to develop the stock-raising industry.
The operations of the Experimental Farms branch are constantly spreading. I desire to express my thanks to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture for his efforts to insure the success of the experimental farm at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere. Not long ago, the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. - Lapointe) asked in the House that an experimental farm be established in the eastern district of Quebec. At Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, although the Government have done what was necessary to make a success of the farm, certain improvements are still required. The minister's well-known appreciation of the importance of the farmer will lead him to improve that farm and make it one to be admired by all agriculturists.
Among the various Acts passed to promote farming, few have more importance than that providing for agricultural instruction, an Act which was passed in 1913 by the hon. minister. Under the wise guidance of the minister, the law was passed and the directors of our agricultural colleges have been put in a position to appoint staffs of devoted, educated and experienced teachers. In the province of Quebec, under that statute buildings have been added to and the equipment improved in all the institutions for the promotion of agriculture. I can speak more particularly of the work done at the agricultural college of Ste. Anne da la Pocatiere. Out of the Federal grant, large sums were received to put up new buildings so as to provide better accommodation.
While the religious orders who have charge of our agricultural colleges are working strenuously for [DOT] the advancement of agriculture, the Provincial and Dominion Governments are co-operating to the same end.
We are making great sacrifices towards the development of our agricultural colleges. Young men who have acquired a classical education have taken to farming. The Federal and Provincial Governments should earnestly see to those young men and ap-

point them to positions for which their studies and their talent has, prepared them. It is the best way of encouraging the agricultural schools.
Writers and orators sacred and profane, are trying to instil a taste for farm life and farm management into the minds of the Canadian farmers and youths. They extol the exalted position of the tiller of the soil, who can do so much for his country's prosperity.
The live stock branch has organized farmers' institutes in' French-speaking districts of the province of Quebec, to promote a campaign of patriotism and production. The farmers have taken to them with much earnestness. They showed clearly that their patriotism was responsive to the proposal. The success of the spring campaign in 1915 was due in a large measure to the co-operation *of ministers of all denominations, and especially the parish priests. We are indebted to the clergy who have been active in encouraging an increase of production in the province of Quebec.
In concluding I feel bound to recall the name of a former member of this House, the late Mr. G. A. Gigault, Deputy Minister of Agriculture for the province of Quebec. He was the inspirer of the work carried on by our experimental farms. Mr. Gigault had been, a pioneer in the field of scientific agriculture and has left imperishable monuments of his industry and zeal.


Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Kamouraska):: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I fully agree with the views expressed by hon. gentlemen opposite when they commend the work done by the Department of Agriculture, through the experimental farms. I am well acquainted with the institution at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, which is established in the constituency I have the honour to represent and I realize that, though but a few years in operation, it can already show wonderful results towards the advancement and development of farming in that district.
I remember well that when we petitioned for that experimental station, we enlisted the support of all our friends from other parts of Quebec. I take pleasure to-day in seconding the request of the hon. member for Chicoutimi (Mr. Girard) that a similar establishment be located in the Saguenay and Lac St. John district; which is destined to become a great farming country.
That locality presents climatic and soil conditions altogether different from those prevailing on the south shore of the St. Lawrence. It would certainly be fair to the people of that extensive territory to provide

them with the same agricultural advantages which other parts have been enjoying for years.
I also hold with my hon. friend from l'lslet (Mr. Paquet) that the Government should give preference to the graduates of [DOT]agricultural colleges in appointments as teachers of agriculture. When the experimental station of St. Anne de la Pocatiere was established, a director was not appointed the first year, because the Hon. Mr. Fisher, ex-Minister of Agriculture wanted for the position a man duly certificated and speaking both languages; none were available at the time. Air. Fisher used to say: The pupils are there, but we shall leave the position vacant until they can fill them.
In the fall of 1911, an event took place, which our friends on the other side of the House remember well. A new minister took charge of the Department of Agriculture, and his first care regarding the farm at St. Anne de la Pocatiere was to appoint a director.
I have nothing to say against Mr. Begin who fulfils his duty to the best of his ability and who is very active in his efforts to develop that experimental station; but Mr. Begin is not a graduate of an agricultural college.
However, he had a most important qualification in the eyes of the Government; he had been the Conservative candidate for Levis at the last elections.
Again I would say nothing against him; he certainly does his very best to have this experimental station show actual results. In that he is admirably supported by Mr. Grisdale, the director of the Dominion Experimental Farm, whose knowledge of agriculture is certainly not excelled anywhere. Yet I must point out that the appointment of Mr. Begin is in direct opposition to the views put forth this afternoon by the member for Tlslet (Mr. Paquet) and I believe that is the only case in the Dominion where the director of an expermental farm is not a graduate of an agricultural college.
I now wish to say a word in reply to the strictures just made against the distribution by the Quebec Government of the Federal subsidy for agricultural purposes. How may the supporters of the Government complain, when they themselves it was who requested that the Department of Agriculture of the province of Quebec be kept in tutelage and receive a separate treatment which is nothing but an insult to the province.
In the other provinces, that grant is handed over, without restrictions of any kind, to the provincial Minister of Agriculture,
who uses it as he sees fit and who has the most absolute discretion in its distribution. And after all such should be the relations between governments. But in Quebec, party considerations have prompted the Dominion Government to act differently and an official of the Dominion Department of Agriculture, Mr. J. C. Chapais has been appointed to supervise and superintend the distribution of the federal subsidy. How then can our hon. friends on the other side complain of the manner in which the grant has been spent, when they themselves have requested that its distribution be made under the supervision of a Dominion official? I protest against that guardianship and that kind of protectorate to which our province has been subjected.
The question has been raised, during this debate, concerning the purchase by the Government of race-pure stock. The Minister of Agriculture bought a whqle herd for the experimental farm at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere. But I regret to see that the Canadian breed of cattle has been completely forgotten. The minister is fully aware of the well known qualities of the Canadian cow. I am particularly anxious to see the breeding of Canadian cows encouraged in the province of Quebec, and to that end, I should ask the minister to see that a few animals of that race be bought and put with the herd at the experimental farm at S'te. Anne.
I have nothing more to add, unless it be that the Minister of Agriculture and the Government may count on our hearty support, every time the estimates contain items required for the promotion and development of agriculture.


Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski):: (Translation.) Air. Speaker, in the few words I have to say to the House, I wish to state that I fully concur in the views of the hon. member for Chicoutimi and Saguenay (Mr. Girard) on agriculture. He has expressed his thanks to. the Government for the encouragement the latter has given generally to farming in Canada, and more particularly in his constituency. The hon. member is a practical farmer, who knows whereof he speaks, and it is to be regretted-be it said passim-that there are not more farmers to be found in this House.
I for one wish to give thanks to the Minister of Agriculture for having begun the establishment of an illustration station in the county of Matane. I hope that in the county of Rimouski, which I have also the honour to represent in this House, the same thing will be done next year.


Mr. DEVLIN:: (Translation.) Did you recommend any one?


Herménégilde Boulay: (Translation.) I never
knew there were any to be appointed.


Ernest Lapointe: (Translation.) What are the names of those from the province of Quebec?


Herménégilde Boulay: (Translation.) L. P. Lavoie, from St. Pascal; J. S. Dash and D. E. Lothian, from St. Ann's de Bellevue.
There are eight inspectors from New Brunswick and six from Ottawa. I wonder what those Ottawa people, especially if they come from the city, know about potato growing. I am told that they all have been dismissed except six, but those six are also from Ottawa. Moreover I will call your attention to the fact that out of the six, only one is a French-Canadian. And, as is very often the case elsewhere, the French-Canadian could not be given the same salary as the others who get $100 per month while he goes off with only $75.
There must be an end to those things. The higher officials of the Agriculture Department must be able to understand what we say and the French-Canadian employees must be put on an equal footing as regards salaries as all others; why should one be paid $100 and the other only $75?
The injustice I have pointed out is of long-standing; it has almost always existed; but for every ill there is a cure.

If I draw the attention of the House to such unfair discrimination, it is to prevent the recurrence of the evil in future; then there will no longer be any occasion for me to refer to the matter.


Mr. McCOIG:: A year ago, when the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture were before the House, the Right Hon. the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) assured us in the province of Ontario, where hog cholera was prevalent, that experiments would be made with the serum preventative treatment. I understand that the experiment has been carried on to a considerable extent at the experimental farms and also at the experimental stations throughout the different parts of Ontario. Can the Acting Minister of Agriculture give us some idea of the results that have been attained?


John Douglas Hazen: Might I ask my hon. friend to bring that matter up when the item bearing on the question is under discussion, and when I shall have the veterinary inspector, Dr. Torrance, here? It is not pertinent to the item now before the committee.


Archibald Blake McCoig: Very well. Another matter that I would like to bring up is the question of inspectors' salaries; but perhaps the minister would like to defer that also.


John Douglas Hazen: That will come up at the same time.


Mr. KNOWLES:: Last session the hon.
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Burrell) explained at some length that he had in his mind the inauguration of a system of small illustration plots, each situated preferably at the corner of the road where a great many farmers pass, and that arrangements would be made for the land to be cultivated under the direction of the department officials. I believe that has been done in some provinces, and I understand that Saskatchewan is one. Could the minister tell me how many plots there are in Saskatchewan, where they are and how the system is getting along?


John Douglas Hazen: There are 38 of these illustration plots established-15 in Alberta, 14 in Saskatchewan, and 9 in Quebec. In Saskatchewan. the following are under way:
Assiniboia	P.	J. H. Warren.Cabri	P.	W. Abraham.Gull Lake	E.	H. Thomas.Herbert	Milton Holmes.Kindersley	Ottawa Farm Development Co.Maple Creek	G.	L. Hammond.Pambrun	E. W. Applegrem.Prelate	Wm. Huxtable.Shaunavon	Neil McLean.
The stations selected for 1916 in Saskatchewan are:
Biggar	Dr. S. E. Shaw.
Lloydminster	Hugh Hill.
Moosejaw	J. J. Glassford.
Radville	Lewis Kroon.
Weyburn	Edward Meredith.
There will be one also at Conquest, but I have not the name of the farm upon which it will be situated.


William Erskine Knowles: What has been done so far?


John Douglas Hazen: Some of these plots were under way last year. They pay the farmers about |5 an acre for ihe land used.


William Erskine Knowles: How far have they gone in opening this new system?


John Douglas Hazen: The ten plots I have mentioned were operated last year as far as was practicable. They were not in total operation, because the land had to betaken as it was found, and consequently preparation had to be made; but the ten: were actually in operation.


William Erskine Knowles: Every one of these plots that the minister has mentioned as being in operation last year happens to be in my constituency, and I am very well pleased to see them there. If they are any good at all my people might as well have the benefit as anybody else. What steps are taken to give the matter publicity? I go about my constituency quite a bit, and I take all the papers, 'but I have never learned anything about these plots until this afternoon. If they are to be useful their existence should be made known to the people, and I would suggest to the minister that steps be taken to make the different locations familiar to the public.


John Douglas Hazen: I am told that these are intended as illustration plots for the farmers in the localities where they are situated, and the expectation is that the farmers will very quickly know about them. In addition, there are two signs at the corner calling attention to the illustration plots. It has also been arranged that the superintendent, Mr. Fixter, shall hold meetings throughout the districts and call the-attention of tne farmers to these plots and the benefits that are expected to result from them. There are eight meetings arranged for in Saskatchewan, beginqing on. Monday next.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Speaking of illustration farms, how large are they?


John Douglas Hazen: In Saskatchewan and Alberta they are forty acres, and in Quebec twenty-five.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Saskatchewan and
Alberta are being very well looked after, especially the constituency of my hon. friend from Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles). Why has Manitoba been overlooked?


John Douglas Hazen: I feel like making a
similar protest with regard to the province of New Brunswick. I fancy we shall all be looked after in time.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Are	these illustration
fanns to be established in every constituency throughout the Dominion?


John Douglas Hazen: I can hardly say that.


William Erskine Knowles: In every doubtful constituency.


John Douglas Hazen: If the results are good, I have no doubt the farms will be very generally established throughout the country.


Frank Oliver: Might I ask for a list of the illustration farms in Northern Alberta?


John Douglas Hazen: There are illustration farms in Alberta, but not in the northern half.


Frank Oliver: I think there are.


John Douglas Hazen: This is the list: Bow Island, Carmangay, Empress, Foremost, Grassy Lake, Jenner, Macleod. Magrath, Many-berries, Medicine Hat, Milk River, Pincher Creek, Whitla. Stations have also been selected at High River, -Stettler, and Man-son; Stettler being the farthest north.


Frank Oliver: I understand that the Government is interested in a station of some kind at the Beaver Lodge Settlement, in the Peace River district. What class is that in?


John Douglas Hazen: That is not an illustration or experimental farm. There are a few places in Canada where the department

selects a farmer and sends him certain grains and seeds, with instructions how to plant. The farmer carries out the instructions and reports results to the department. The station my hon. friend refers to is one of that kind._


Frank Oliver: I think this particular
one is very well chosen, and is doing good work.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: How many illustration farms are there in Ontario?


John Douglas Hazen: There are none in Ontario. These farms were only established in 1915, and at present are only in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Quebec. In Quebec the farms consist of 25 acres, and I presume that will be the size of any such farms that are established in Ontario.


Donald Sutherland: Has any provision been made to establish any in Ontario this year?


John Douglas Hazen: If it is thought desirable to establish them in Ontario this year it could be done out of this vote..


Mr. HANNA:: What about the illustration farms established by the Conservation Commission? I understand that the Dominion Government is going to take them over.


John Douglas Hazen: I understand they are all out of commission except the one at Kamloops, B.C. The agreement was that the Conservation Commission should run the farms for two years, and the Agricultural Department for the third arid last year.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: I think the one at Perth is in its fourth year.


John Douglas Hazen: Third year, I think.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: As there are nine illustration farms in the constituency of Moose-jaw, I think I am entitled now to claim one for my constituency. If these farms are any good at all, I do not see why there should not be one in my constituency. Nine certainly seems too many for one constituency.


John Douglas Hazen: The constituency of Moose-jaw is a tremendous one in size.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: So is mine.


John Douglas Hazen: Apart from that, it is one of t'he sections that was badly hit by the drought. The Agricultural Department felt that these farms should be estaDiished in that district to illustrate the proper methods

of cultivating the soil with a view to minimizing to a great extent the results of any drought that the district might experience in the future.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: In the constituency I represent a large section was badly hit by fire, and has not been able to be made use of since. I did suggest some time ago that it would be a good place for a military camp, but now that illustration farms are on the tapis I think one might very well be established in my constituency. I am referring particularly to the township of Aylmer.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. member for
Moosejaw might lend my hon. friend a farm.


Mr. TURRIFF:: I am afraid the minister's explanation as to the large number of farms in the constituency of Moosejaw is hardly satisfactory. I do not think that was the reason at all. The minister is evidently , of the impression that the constituency of Moosejaw was the only part of Saskatchewan that suffered from the drought. I may tell him that last year it was not only the southern part of the constituency of Moosejaw that suffered from the drought, but many other parts of Saskatchewan. I think my hon. friend will have to hunt up a little better reason than he has given to the House, and one that is closer to the facts of the case.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend from Assini-boia has a very suspicious mind. I can only give the reason that was given to me by the officials of the Agricultural Department. The director, who is here, tells me that he spent several weeks in the southern part of Alberta and the southern part of Saskatchewan for the express purpose of ascertaining the most necessary places in which to establish these farms. Without any ulterior object whatever, he came back and reported to the minister in favour of the locations where the farms were subsequently established.


William Erskine Knowles: If these farms are any good, I do not. care whether they help the Government politically or not. I know that when this man from the Agriculture Department was in Moosejaw arranging about the location of these farms, the Conservative press of the town announced that he was in consultation with Mr. Ratheell, the man who has the patronage there, and that it was through his influence and instrumentality that such and such a farm would be established at such and such a place. The kudos goes to this party of empire-

savers, flag-wavers, closers of the wheat market, and other things of that kind. To say that it is the officials who determine all this is a very plausible statement for the minister to make-no doubt an honest statement, since he is only the acting minister. But the fact that he is only the acting minister does not make any difference in the facts as they stand. I am not saying all this in the way of objecting to the establishing of these 'little illustration farms in Moosejaw. They can put one on every corner-they can put four on every corner-before I will raise any objection. But we might as well know that they are being run, so far as the public know anything about it, not by the officials of the Government, but by the Conservative patronage-handlers.	.


John Douglas Hazen: Governments always claim credit for the good things they do.


William Erskine Knowles: Let the credit go to whom it is due, and not say that these illustration plots are placed by the officials of the department.


Archibald Blake McCoig: It hardly seems to me fair that Ontario is not to have one of these illustration plots at all. Moosejaw, as I understand the hon. member, is going to have nine.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: He has nine already, and is going to get more.


Archibald Blake McCoig: And yet the whole province of Ontario, which will contribute to the maintenance of these plots, is to be left without any of them. I am a little surprised, when there are so many supporters of the Government from the province of Ontario, that they do not put up a fight for some of these illustration plots for our province. While we talk about the drought in Saskatchewan and the fire in Quebec, in 1914 the crops in Ontario, particularly in barley and oat crops, were practically wiped out by the army-worm, causing a loss to our farmers 5 p.m. of thousands upon thousands of dollars; yet I have never heard of any experiment made, or advice offered, or assistance given, to the farmers of Ontario to enable them to provide against a similar affliction in 1916. In all seriousness, I believe that something should be done to assist our farmers in case of another outbreak of the army-worm pest in the future. Either these illustration plots aTe good or they are not good.
If they are good, they should be distributed without regard to whether the localities support the Government or not. I believe that the members from Ontario should join in urging the Government to do something to assist our farmers, for fear we should be again afflicted with the pest that wiped out our crops before.


Mr. BURNHAM:: Let me say, as a farmer from Ontario, or rather as a representative of farmers, that we are not at all jealous because the West is receiving this assistance. We recognize that the Middle West needs more assistance than any other part of Canada. It seems to be unable to develop in the ordinary way; and, since we are bound by Confederation or some other obligation to help them out by lending them money and one thing or another, let us do it without grudging. Do not make it out a sin that we are doing the thing handsomely; do not make it a cause of jealously; do not throw the apple of discord into the province of Ontario. We are an innocent-minded people, and we are working hard and successfully. No doubt some d.ay a scheme for taking the people from the West and putting them on decent farms in Ontario will be matured. But, until they are able to settle down and farm in the usual way, instead of trying to help themselves by their big puffs in the newspapers as having the most wonderful area in the world, let us proceed in a pleasant way and without casting insinuations that the province of Ontario is being neglected. We do not require treatment of this description. Not being- bottle-fed people, we do not suffer from drought.


John Gillanders Turriff: 
An hon. MEMBER:: Another extravagant statement.


Mr. COPP:: I have been looking ov,er the Auditor General's Report of last year, volume 1, page A-24, with respect to the Experimental Farm at Fredericton. I have some knowledge of the objects and work of the Central Experimental Farm, 'and of the advantage that should accrue to the farmers of Canada as a whole from the work that is carried on there. The experimental branch station at Nappan is but a short distance from my own town. The name "experimental farm" would seem to indicate that it aims to be of assistance to the farmers in the locality in which it is situated. I have hiad the pleasure of visiting the Nappan and Fredericton farms on a number of occasions. They are splendid places in which to hold picnics and things of' that kind, and the farmers do use them for such puirposps; they are splendidly located and pleasing to the eye. But what I should like to ask the minister is this: what particular benefit or advantage are these experimental farms iutended to give to the farmers of the different localities in which they are situated?	.	.


John Douglas Hazen: I think it is a little late
in the day to question the advantage of having farms of this kind.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am not questioning that; 1. simply ask for information.


John Douglas Hazen: The advantage of experimental farms has appealed to governments of Canada for many years past. The Central Experimental farm was established in Ottawa a good many years ago, when, I think, Sir John Carling was Minister of Agriculture. The results of the operations of that farm proved so satisfactory that demands came from the farmers throughout the country-


Arthur Bliss Copp: I think the hon. gentleman
misunderstands me. I am not questioning the advisability of having these farms; I am asking the minister to tell me if the farmers in these localities can go to the farms and get any advantage from them.


John Douglas Hazen: The establishment of the Central Experimental Farm proved so popular throughout the country that a demand came from farmers in other parts of Canada for the establishment of farms in the different provinces. It was inconvenient for the farmers to travel to Ottawa from many different parts of the country; in addition to that, considering the great diversity of

our soil and climate, the Central farm could not carry out all the experiments that would demonstrate what was the best for all parts of the country. The Central Experimental Farm, of course, carries out experiments of all sorts in connection with the growing of crops, the production of stock, the cultivation of tobacco, the rotation of crops, the testing of seeds. Experiments are carried out vyith a view to determining what varieties of grass or vegetables will do best in certain sections of the country. The Central' farm is open to the farmers of the country at all times; the correspondence which it carries on with farmers from one end of Canada to the other is, I believe, of enormous dimensions. The experimental farms in the different provinces work along similar lines, though not on so large a scale. They are branches of the Central Farm. They make all kinds of experiments to determine what crops should be grown and how those crops can be best grown in the particular locality to which the farm is situated. Their work has more regard to special localities than the Central Experimental Farm, which deals more generally with questions affecting the whole of the country. It is open to any farmer to go to the branch farm and get from it any advantage that he can by observing its operations and obtaining such information as may be given by those who are carrying out the experiments. Bulletins are from time to time issued from the Central Farm, with reports from the branch farms, giving the results of these observations and. experiments. These bulletins are circulated very generally among the farmers of the country, and many farmers who have never visited, the farms get much advantage from their existence by reason of the vast amount of information that is disseminated. There are, I think, two of these farms in Nova Scotia, one at Kentville, which,, I suppose, would turn its attention largely-to the question of the production of fruit, and another at Nappan, which' has 'been established a good many years. The latter farm is not far from my hon. friend's home in Saekviille. An experimental farm has / lately been established in New Brunswick, at Fredericton. Previous to the establishment of that farm there had been no experimental farm to the province, and the farmers' and dairymen's associations in that province urged for a long time that New Brunswick should have one of these farms, as they considered that very considerable benefit would result from its

operation. Some of these farmers and dairymen had business at the Central Experimental Farm; others were in the habit of going to the midwinter fair at Amherst, and of visiting the farm at Nappan. It was strongly urged upon the Government that an experimentarl farm should be established in the central part of New Brunswick, and, accordingly, a farm was established at Fredericton.
The last publication issued from the Central Farm had a circulation of 390,000. These publications are being sent to farmers throughout the country who ask for them. Bulletins are issued setting out the results of experiments in connection with tobacco culture, the growing of winter wheat, poultry production, forestry questions, and many other matters of deep interest to the farmers. I am sure that if my hon. friend, who lives not very far from Nappan, should visit the farm there and see the work that is being carried on, he would be pleased indeed, and would come to the conclusion that the farm is a useful institution and is doing good work for the people.


Arthur Bliss Copp: show a great similarity. There will be A. Deacon, B. Deacon, C. Deacon and G. Deacon, and then A. Gillies, B. Gillies, C. Gillies and some other Gillies. I do not want to throw out the least shadow of suspicion, but this would appeal to me as being a matter which might well be inquired into by an officer of the department. I have brought this matter to the attention of the acting Minister of Agriculture, and I trust that he will see to it that, even if other matters are extravagantly carried on, the expenditures for the promotion of the great agricultural industry will be made with some degree of care, some degree of supervision, and some degree of economy. I hope the minister wirl be able to give me a defiuite assurance on this point.
Mr. UAZEN-. Every account in connection w:th any of these branch farms comes, in the first instance, to the office of the director of the Experimental Farms at Ottawa. There it is examined, and it is then passed on by the director to the Department of Agriculture, where it is criticised and passed upon by the Accountants' Branch. Every care is taken to see that the moneys are properly accounted for. The criticism which my hon. friend has indulged in this afternoon is practically the same sort of criticism that has been indulged in by every Opposition in this House for 20 years past.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I was not here.


John Douglas Hazen: It strikes one in Opposition at first glance as very extraordinary that the expense should be so much greater than the revenue. But when you come to consider the matter there is nothing very extraordinary about it. The farms are not run for commercial advantage, but as experimental farms; and a great deal of the work carried on is of an experimental character, and so does not bring five cents into the exchequer of the farms. The farms are not intended to pay directly; they are for the diffusion among the farmers of knowledge and information of an up-to-date, scientific and practical character. As to my hon. friend's criticism about the labourers at the different farms bearing the same names, I do not think there is anything extraordinary about that. Very often these farms are situated in districts where there are not a great many labouring men. There might be three or four in one family living in the neighbourhood, but I do not think there is any oeca-

sion for suspicion. If there was anything wrong, it would have been detected long ago, not only by the officers of the Experimental Farm, but by the officers of the Department of Agriculture. I am satisfied that these farms are well run. Generous provision is and always hasi been made for them, no matter what Government has been in power, but I think they have been conducted in the public interest, and the good work they are doing is greatly appreciated by the farmers throughout the country who get in touch with them.
With reference to one of the questions, raised by my hon. friend, I understand that the farmers in the neighbourhood of Nappan are given, on application to Ottawa, samples of grain and other seeds for the purpose of sowing on their farms. A great quantity of the produce that is raised goes to the farmers for the purpose of helping them with their operations. No charge is made for these samples, and of course nothing is credited to the Experimental Farms for them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I thank the minister for the information he has given. I trust he does not think that I was making any criticism; my object was merely to obtain information*. The point in which I am particularly interested was touched upon by the minister just as he sat down. The farmers in my locality do not know-at all events, they say they do not know-that they are entitled to receive those samples of grain from the different experimental farms. Where is the information published which would enable the farmers to apply to the management of the experimental farm for those samples?


John Douglas Hazen: The director tells me that a statement is published in nearly every paper in Canada informing the farmers that if they desire samples of this sort they should make application for them. In the district where my hon. friend lives, if a farmer wanted samples, say of potatoes, he would apply directly to the farm at Nappan; but, so far as the distribution of grain is concerned, that is directed from the Central farm here at Ottawa, because they have the organization necessary to carry it out. The grain grown on the Nappan farm and other farms is sent here and distributed in small quantities to any one who makes application for a sample. Of course, the farmers cannot get enough grain to sow a field with; they will get enough to experiment with, and to enable them to ascertain whether the variety they get gives -better results than the variety they have been using.


Mr. OOPP:: Is that information published at a certain time of the year?


John Douglas Hazen: In the fall of the year, after the crop is harvested.
Mr. OOtRP: Might suggest that it would be an advantage to have a bulletin, copies of which could be distributed among the members, particularly those representing farming localities, so that they could send them out to the farmers in their constituencies? I think it would he very useful, because I can assure the minister that the farmers in my1 locality are not aware that they can get those samples, and it is the up to date farmers who complain to me that the experimental farms, which are supposed to be carried on for their benefit, are of no advantage to them. Personally, I believe that these farms are of advantage, if properly conducted and the farmers have the opportunity of getting into touch with the managers and obtaining information from them.


Donald Sutherland: With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Copp), I can only say that the farmers in his constituency must live under different conditions from those of almost any other farmers in Canada, because I do not know of any reports which have a wider publicity than those of the experimental farms. You will find them in almost every library in the country. There are publications issued by the Government containing the fullest information with regard to the workings of these farms. The discussion here this afternoon has been rather interesting in that the 'criticism apparently comes mostly from those members who live in the provinces where these farms are situated. It seems impossible to satisfy every one. I think it was the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) who, a few moments ago, made the statement that these farms were being established for political purposes. I would not like to say that. I have always felt that no money expended by the Government was giving better results than that expended for experimental purposes. I think it was in 1886 that the Dominion Experimental Farm was established here in Ottawa. The late Sir John Carling was then Minister of Agriculture. Some years previously, the Ontario Agricultural College farm had been located at Guelph. I desire to say this, that the publicity given to the reports of these farms is possibly doing greater injustice to the province of Ontario than people
generally realizQ. I quite understand the necessity of establishing local stations throughout the western provinces, which contain such wonderful agricultural possibilities, but to my mind great injury is being done to Ontario by the publicity that is given to the other provinces, not only in this country, but in almost every country from which we endeavour to get immigrants. Naturally the people of these countries come to Canada with the view of engaging in agriculture, and they get from the immigration offices the publications of the Department of Agriculture. I have here a report which has just been published in connection with the Experimental Farms in Canada, containing 574 pages, and other publications are being issued continually. This one contains a great deal of information, but, looking over the list of contents, I find that the only reference as regards Ontario, is to the Central Experimental Farm here at Ottawa, which in no sense represents the agricultural conditions throughout the province. There are a large number of farms and substations, and there are reports about these in this document. Not only that, but the Department of Trade and Commerce issues a weekly bulletin containing reports received from these various farms, and copies of that bulletin are distributed broadcast. What I complain of chiefly is that the people who contemplate coming to this country and who receive these publications are apt to form a very erroneous idea as to the possibilities of the province of Ontario. If the people lived here and knew the conditions, it would not be such a serious matter. In Ontario we have an immense area of land still undeveloped, and fotr that reason, if for no other, more attention should be paid to the province. I would like to ask the minister a question with regard to a certain tract of land, which has an unpronouncable Indian name, on the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, in the clay belt of Northern Ontario. I believe that the aliens, belonging to the countries with which we are at war, are interned there, and that a large area is being cleared, or has been cleared. I would like to know whether the Government propose to establish an experimental farm at this place. It could certainly be done very cheaply. I do not know but that it would be better to have one farther north than that, but it would serve the newer districts of Ontario in an admirable way. It is a splendid way to employ these people while the war is going on.

But I want to emphasize the injustice that is being done to the province of Ontario every day of the year through publications being found in the libraries of almost every country in the woyld which omit to mention the agricultural achievements and possibilities of that province. Agents in Denmark and other European countries, from which we would like to promote immigration, will consult this literature in which Ontario is altogether overlooked. To such an extent is this the case that the province of Ontario is doing work, and has been doing it for years, that the other provinces are having the Dominion Government do for them. I refer particularly to work in connection with the bringing of immigrants into this country. We find that they have had to go as far as to send agents to the continent as well as to the British Islands. An office has been opened in London. At the present time nothing is being done in the old land, but we find agents of the Ontario Government in the United States endeavouring to get help for the farmers of our province. I do not say that the farmers of Ontario.are not as loyal and patriotic as those of any other part of Canada, because, as a matter of fact, there is no distinction between any of the provinces in that regard. But the crying need of keeping up production in the province of Ontario is handicapped more than in any other province under the conditions prevailing at the present time. I believe that-the first duty of every citizen of this country is to see that this war is brought to a successful conclusion and as soon as possible, and I would not ask or encourage any farmer or any farmer's son to remain here if he was able to bear arms and go to the front. During this year you are going to notice a remarkable falling off in the province of Ontario, -as also I believe, in the other provinces. When this war is over we are going to be confronted with a condition of affairs which will require the best energy and genius of our people in order to remedy the injury that will have been done by the war. For that reason, if for no other, these stations should be established in Ontario so that we would be getting our due share of publicity in the reports that .are sent out by the Government of Canada, and which are consulted with reference to the agricultural possibilities of the various provinces.
I do not want any one to think that I am taking up time unnecessarily. I feel, and I have felt, that there is no item in these

Estimates which is of greater importance than the one now under consideration. I quite agree with some of the remarks that were made by some hon. gentlemen who were criticising the stations that are located in their various- constituencies and localities where they have been enabled to observe their operation, and, who possibly feel that a better work might be done. Unless you have a practical demonstration and can convince the farmers in these localities that the work that is being carried on is practical you are not going to do any good. If it is a mere theory that you are endeavouring to carry out you might be better without the stations. It is quite noticeable that when you find a first-class, up-to-date farmer, who is making a success of his business-, and whose farm is in splendid condition, you very soon find, those around him adopting the methods that he is pursuing, and in that way the whole community is benefited. Po-ssibly that is the object that the promoters of these farms have in view; whether they are succeeding or not is another question, because they do not come under our observation in Ontario The province of Ontario is itself doing a great deal in this regard; but its work does not come uncjer the notice of the public through the literature that is being published by the Federal Government, and to my mind the greatest possible injury is being done to Ontario in that regard. I would like to know whether there is any possibility of another of these farms being [DOT] established this year, and 1 would ask -particularly in regard to one in the clay belt of Northern Ontario. The Ontario Government has established, I believe, two farms in Northern Ontario, but their reports do not appear in the publications issued by this Government.


John Douglas Hazen: In reply to my hon. friend, from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland), I may say that a farm is being established at a place called-I do not wonder that he could not pronounce the name-Ka-pus-kasing, in the clay belt of the province of Ontario, seventy miles west of Cochrane.


Charles Marcil: Is that on the line of railway?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, on the line of the Transcontinental. Work is progressing towards a conclusion, and it is being done by interned aliens-Germans and Austrians. They have been at work there cutting down timber and clearing up, and it is expected to have 100 acres under crop

next year. Another farm is being established at Spirit Lake, Quebec, which is 140 miles east of Cochrane. There is also established there a camp of interned aliens who are doing a very useful work which I trust will be very much to the advantage of both the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. I think it very desirable that experimental farms should be established in that new country. I shall 'be very glad to convey to the Minister of Agriculture the remarks made by my hon. friend from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) regarding the circulation of literature and other matters affecting the province of Ontario. I am sure that the minister, who is now laid up, will read his speech with a great deal of care and will give such attention and consideration to his suggestions as it is possible for him to do.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: Since there is an experimental farm in my district, practically in my own city, I would like to make a few observations, not in the nature of criticism, but merely for the purpose of suggesting an experiment that I think could be carried along successfully at that farm. In fact, the experiment to which I refer has been undertaken there, and it has met with a considerable degree of success. I refer to fruit-raising. It may be a surprise to some hon. members of this House to know that in many parts of the irrigated districts of southern Alberta during last year there were remarkable crops of first-class apples. At the farm at Lethbridge the trees that were in bearing yielded plentifully and the quality of the apples was good, fully as good as many of the apples grown in Ontario. I think that this experimental work should be carried on further and that some person should be placed at that particular farm who is acquainted with fruit-growing. The reason I mention that station particularly is this: At a place called Magrath, 20 or 25 miles south of Lethbridge, a man who came from Utah brought with him some seedlings and planted them on his farm. At the present time that man has over 100 apple trees bearing fruit. I was in his orchard last year, and it was a great sight.


John Hampden Burnham: What is the name of the fruit?


William Ashbury Buchanan: I do not know the name of the fruit; the man himself does not know the name.


John Hampden Burnham: I cannot find out from the department the name of any seedling fruit.


William Ashbury Buchanan: This man does not
know the names of the varieties of apples he is rasing on his place. Last year he got me to help him, and I sent a great many samples to ithe experimental farm at Lethbridge. They knew the names of some of the samples but not all. This is not an isolated ease. There are many farmers in that district growing small fruits, and with a great deal of success, and a ready market is found for the fruit at Lethbridge. I believe that that irrigated district could grow sufficient fruit to supply the needs of Lethbridge and the surrounding country. I would urge the department to appoint some one to the Lethbridge experimental farm to assist the farmers who are making experiments along this line. There is all the more need to encourage fruit raising in the Prairie Provinces because of the new duty that has been imposed on apples, which will have the effect of increasing the cost to the consumers on the prairies.
There is another point I should like to mention. If the farmers are to get full benefit from the experimental farms, they must visit them regularly, and find out the results of the experiments that are being made. Last year excursions were run to the Lethbridge farm, and a great many farmers from all over the southern part of Alberta took advantage of them. But they stayed at the farm only a few hours, and, though impressed with the experiments, they had not time to profit by them. It struck me at the time that it would he very advantageous if some plan were arranged so that the farmers could spend two or three weeks at the farm, and investigate the experiments that were being conducted. Perhaps arrangements could be made to give the farmers their board as cheaply as possible, so that they could stay on the ground all day long for several weeks. A building or some other accommodation could be provided. This, I think, would be of real benefit to the farmers, and they would be able to take advantage of this opportunity, because in the summer of tlje year they might take a week or more to visit the Experimental Farm.


John Hampden Burnham: If the apple industry in the district of my hon. friend develops, will he give the credit to the new duty on apples?


William Ashbury Buchanan: No. I believe that those who grow apples in my country want open markets everywhere. They are not afraid of the apple-grower or the grain-grower of Ontario., I may say to the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Burnham), who has broken into this debate two or three times, that if it were not for Western Canada the town he comes from would not have the population it has to-day: the development of Peterborough has been due to the development of western Canada. There has been criticism of Western members speaking for their own part of the country; but we speak for the West because we believe its development is necessary not only to Ontario, but to the whole Dominion. I have made these two suggestions to the acting-minister because I believe that if carried out they would be of great benefit to the people affected. I think the fruit-growing industry can be developed to a certain extent, but I would not for a moment say that it could be made a profitable business for the farmer. I think, however, that in the irrigated district there is some prospect ahead for profitable fruit-raising. The other suggestion I made was that the farmer should be encouraged to visit the experimental farms, so that they might get real benefit from the experiments that are being made. The investment in these experimental farms would then be really worth while. The experimental farm at Lethbridge has been of the greatest benefit to the southern part of the province; the experiments have been carried on with great advantage, and the conduct of the farm has been splendid. An experiment was made in wheat in one plot last year- I am not saying this to givl the particular district any publicity-and the yield was in the neighbourhood of eighty bushels to the acre. I do not know what kind of wheat it was.


John Douglas Hazen: I think the suggestions of the hon. member are excellent and worthy of every consideration. I am told that at the Lethbridge experimental farm there are now several hundred apple trees, that fifty of those trees are bearing, and that about twenty barrels of apples of very fair quality were gathered from them last year. In addition to that, a lot of small fruits, such as strawberries, etc., are grown at the farm. So my hon. friend will see that some considerable attention is being given to the matter to which he refers. The depart-

ment is establishing a fruit station at Morden, in the province of Manitoba, and the officials hope to spread the raising of fruit out through the West. They expect the farmers to go in for growing apples and fruit to a much greater extent than at present. I can assure my hon. friend that his suggestion that a fruit department be established in connection with the experimental farms will receive every consideration at the hands of the department.


William Ashbury Buchanan: The name of the man who owns this big orchard at Magrath is Walter Ackroyd. He has four or five acres in fruit trees. He really needs some assistance, because he does not know the varieties of fruit that he is raising. I do not think he is cultivating the land properly, for he is not familiar with fruit raising.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Has he grown any apples, such as Northern Spies?


William Ashbury Buchanan: I could not say. I know his trees were heavily laden with fruit, and that he supplies the stores of Magrath. I do not think he sent any fruit out of the community. The samples he sent me were very good.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I think,the man who has had the greatest success in growing apples in the three Prairie Provinces is Stevenson. I think his crop averages about 200 barrels.


William Frederic Kay: Are any reports published of the experiments conducted at the illustration farms?


John Douglas Hazen: These farms were only established in 1915, and no reports have been published yet.


William Frederic Kay: Will they be published in the annual report of the Experimental Farms?


John Douglas Hazen: Next year, yes.


William Frederic Kay: Will the hon. gentleman
bring down some information to-night about the experimental farm at Lennox-ville?


John Douglas Hazen: I might give the hon.
gentleman information about it now if he would indicate the line.


William Frederic Kay: Are they keeping a dairy
herd there? Are they keeping beef cattle? What kind of horses are they keeping? Generally, what are they doing?


John Douglas Hazen: It is a new farm and is
not yet fully equipped. They have no dairy

herd yet, but it is the intention to have one. There are from 80 to 100 beef cattle at the present time, and also some Clydesdale horses, and also sheep and swine.


William Frederic Kay: What breed of dairy cattle
have they?


John Douglas Hazen: Ayrshires and Holsteins.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Has the minister
explained why this item is larger than that of last year?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, the hon. gentleman
will find that in Hansard.


James Joseph Hughes: The statement made by
the hon. minister in answer to the member for Westmorland (Mr. Copp) shows why the expenditure at the experimental farms is so much in excess of the revenue. But there is an opinion in the country, and I think it is growing, that the expenditure is too great in proportion to the revenue. Whether that opinion is well-founded or not is another question. But there is a growing opinion that economy is not practised, and, as has been said, while economy is good at any time it is particularly good at this time. The minister has stated that the reason why the expenditure at the Central Experimental Farm is so much higher than at the branch farms is that extensive experiments are carried on here and a large staff must be maintained. But that would not apply to the branch farms, nor would it justify their method of farming. The farm at Charlottetown, I presume, is as well managed as any other; but we find a condition of things there that is not considered good farming. I understand that the farm has to buy seed oats, seed potatoes, and also hay and fodder to keep the animals during the year. That would indicate a system of farming which, at the very least, requires some explanation. If an ordinary farmer were to run his place in that way, he would soon receive a visit from the sheriff. Such a thing is a poor object lesson in the community. There may be some reason for it, but, if so, it would be well for the minister to give the reason, because it is commented upon, and properly so.


An hon. MEMBER:: Carried.


James Joseph Hughes: I had some further
remarks to make.


John Douglas Hazen: There are plenty of items yet.


James Joseph Hughes: Might I, on some other item, make some remarks that apply to this particularly?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the hon. minister no explanation to make of the method of farming to which I have referred?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot give such inhumation at the moment about the farm at Charlottetown.


James Joseph Hughes: But would not the department have some control? Is there not some body in the department who knows the condition of things?


John Douglas Hazen: The director informs me that their control is very complete. If they give things away, it would be for distribution among the farmers.


James Joseph Hughes: But they would not give away hay?


John Douglas Hazen: It may be a poor hay farm, or they may keep more stock than the farm will carry-keep them for experimental purposes.


James Joseph Hughes: That is not good farming.


John Douglas Hazen: Not from a commercial point of view, but these farms are not run on a commercial basis.


Frank Oliver: With regard to the farm at Laeombe, are experiments in apple culture, either standard or crab, being carried on there, and, if so, what success has been achieved?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, experiments have been carried on, but not nearly so successfully as at Lethbridge. They have not produced any fruit at Laeombe yet. But there are hundreds of trees there, and the experiments will be continued.


Frank Oliver: Is the non-success in standard apples, or in crabs, or in both?


John Douglas Hazen: Up to the present time they have been more successful with crabs than with standard apples. They have produced some crabs.


Frank Oliver: But they are experimenting with standard apples yet?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, with both.
At six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. W. H. Bennett in the Chair.
Bill No. 22, to incorporate Edmonton and Southwestern Railway company.-Mr. Douglas-in committee.
On section 1-Incorporation:
John Douglas Hazen: Will the promoter tell us what this is about?
Mr. DOUGLAS.: The only explanation 1 can offer in connection with this Bill is that this is a legitimate enterprise, the purpose being to build a railway from Ed-monito southwest to a point on the Saskatchewan river about seventy miles from the city. The Bill was passed unanimously by the Railway Committee.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to, and Bill reported, read third time and passed.
The following Bills were considered in committee, reported, read the third, time, and passed, without discussion:
Bill No. 36, respecting the Joliette and Lake Manuan Colonization Railway company.-Mr. Guilbault.
Bill No. 30, to incorporate Seaport Trusts company.-Mr. Stevens.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 46, respecting the Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway company.- Mr. Boyce.
Bill No. 39,. respecting the Governing Council of the Salvation Army in Canada, and to change the name thereof to the Governing Council of the Salvation Army, Canada East.-Mr. Blain.
Bill No. 40, to incorporate the Governing Council of the Salvation Army, Canada West.-Mr. Blain.
Bill No. 42, for the relief of Robert Nap-per.-Mr. Buchanan.
Bill No. 43, for the relief of Sherwood, Norman Hill.-Mr. Douglas.
Bill No. 44, for the relief of Ida May Woltz.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 45, for the relief of Cecily Ethel Maude Farera.-Mr. Buchanan.
Bill No. 41, for the relief of Lena Pearl Potter.-Mr. Wallace.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. W. IT. Bennett in the Chair.
[Mr. .Hazen.l
Department of Agriculture-Branch of Entomology, $20,000.
['The Public Works Health Act is a law intended to maintain sanitary conditions to protect the health of the people engaged on public works.\nProgress reported.\nOn the motion of Mr. Hazen, the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.\nMonday, March 6, 1916.']
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Mr. BRADBURY:: That is forcing things.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That certainly is forcing things. On page A-25 the minister will find a further payment to J. S. Neil & Sons, Fredericton, of $383, making a total of about $1,232 for explosives alone in clearing land at this experimental farm.


Frank Oliver: Are bees kept at the La-combe experimental farm?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Frank Oliver: How long have they been kept there?


John Douglas Hazen: For about one year.


Frank Oliver: I did not know that they were kept, and I desired to suggest that they should be added to the establishment, for this reason, that, while bees have been kept in Northern Alberta ever since 1888, the winter conditions there are so different from what they are in most countries where bees are kept that there are difficulties in successfully wintering them. For that reason very few private owners have taken up the industry. Some have, and some have been measurably successful. But, owing to the dangers of wintering, bee-keeping has been a matter of great uncertainty, which has prevented the extension of this industry. Flowers in summer are remarkably abundant in that country and there is a vast natural crop of honey. It is a pity not to utilize it. In addition to the native wild-flowers which are so remarkably abundant, the small white clover, which we sometimes call Dutch clover, has become very plentiful. It has a very short stem and grows in bunches. It only grows long enough for pasture. It is not indigenous, but it has become acclimatized, and it has spread to a marvellous de-

gree. This white clover is a tremendous producer of honey of the very highest quality; therefore, I think that the department would be well advised to take up the quesf-tion of bee culture at the Lacombe farm with a view of demonstrating the best means of keeping the bees safely throughout the winter. That is the great question, practically the only question, which has to be solved. It can be solved to better advantage by the skill, science and capital available to the Government on its farm than it could be by a private enterprise. Once that question is satisfactorily solved we may look for an enormous production of honey in that northern country, partly because of the wild-flowers, and partly because of the spread of the white clover.


James Joseph Hughes: Before six o'clock, the
minister stated that we might return to the item of Experimental Farms. I think the impression is growing in the country that the Experimental Farms are costing a good deal of money, and the question naturally arises, w'hether some of that money could not be saved, whether greater economy could not be practised, whether there is a close and proper supervision of the expenditures, whether it is not the duty of some official of the Government to watch them, to examine and criticise them. We know well enough-it is human nature-that where a great number of men are employed in connection with a Government work, they are not always so careful as they should be in their expenditures. I notice quite a difference in the prices paid for articles in one province. I have been looking over the accounts, and I find, for instance, that for the Kentville farm, 215 bushels of oats were purchased from Cross and De Wolfe at 50 cents per bushel, while for the farm at Nappan, in the same province, 1,000 bushels of oats were purchased at 59 cents.


John Douglas Hazen: Were they purchased during the same season of the year?


James Joseph Hughes: There might be something in that, but what I want to know is whether the officers on the different farms are allowed to make purchases without regard to price. There is a large amount of money expended, and while we must assume that the department does its best to supervise these expenditures, I think criticism of this kind is useful. After all, it is our money, and we want to see that we get full value. ,


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman's criticism is perfectly fair criticism; every effort ought to be made to see that value is received for the expenditures. It is the duty of Mr. Grisdale, the Director of Experimental Farms, to visit every experimental farm at least twice a year, and he does so; some of them he visits more frequently. In addition, all the bills incurred at the different farms come here to Ottawa, are examined by the staff at the Experimental Farm, and are then sent to the Agricultural Department, where they are examined by the Accountant's Branch. I have no doubt that the Auditor General also pays some attention to them. Apparently, therefore, every care is taken to guard against improper prices being paid.


James Joseph Hughes: It appears to me to be a poor system of farming which necessitates the purchase of fodder, cereals, and vegetables in such large quantities.


John Douglas Hazen: It would be farming of a worse kind if the farms were fun.for commercial purposes.


James Joseph Hughes: There' is no doubt that
the experimental farms are doing useful work, but whether it is work most advantageous to the farmers I do not know. I know that the farm at Charlottetown, P.E.I.. is one of the best farms.


John Douglas Hazen: It is a small farm.


James Joseph Hughes: Yes, but it is as large as the ordinary farm-sufficiently large, at any rate, to do good work. Under ordinary conditions, if a man cannot make a farm like that pay, there is surely something wrong in the management. There may be exceptional conditions on these, experimental farms. Some years ago, a gentleman named William Rennie, I think, came to our province to lecture on farming. I happened to be present at his meeting, and one of the first remarks he made was that he had gone on a farm belonging to the Ontario Government, ah ordinary farm with ordinary conditions, and had made it pay. As soon as he made that remark every farmer in the audience became interested. They wanted to know how he made it pay, and he went on to tell the story. Now, if we could do things like that, I believe it would do more good to the farming community than running farms at an enormous loss. I am not saying that these farms are not doing useful work, but somehow or other the farmers in my province have the idea that it is easy to farm when the Dominion Government is paying the bills. They would like to know how to make an ordinary-farm pay.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend must remember that an experimental farm is an entirely different proposition from a farm run as a commercial undertaking. I do not suppose that any experimental farm, where experiments and investigations are carried on, could be made to pay, so far as dollars and cents are concerned, though it does pay in other directions. I fancy my hon. friend has reference more particularly to the farm in Prince Edward Island. I am told that that is a small farm, only sixty acres in extent, on which stock experiments are being carried on. A considerable part of it is taken up with the growing of crops, cereals, and so on; .but if you are carrying on stock operations on any scale at all, if you have not sufficient room in which to produce enough hay for the feed of the stock, you have to buy outside. Perhaps the same state of affairs exists on the island. I do not know what sort of a hay farm it is, but naturally, being an experimental farm, a great deal of the land will have to be taken up for the growth of other things, and there will not be a great deal left for hay.
* For the administration and enforcement of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, $75,000.


James Joseph Hughes: Before dinner the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) stated that there were not as many officers sent to inquire into the potato disease in Quebec as there were in New Brunswick. The minister made the reasonable explanation that there was not as much disease in Quebec as there was in New Brunswick. We are very much interested in that matter in Prince Edward Island. I understood that the department was trying to have the embargo removed from Canadian potatoes entering the United States, and that they were taking steps to convince the authorities of the United States that whatever disease there was in our potatoes was not of a serious character. I would like to know what has been done, and what prospects there are of having that embargo removed.


John Douglas Hazen: The embargo has been removed.


James Joseph Hughes: No.


John Douglas Hazen: There is no inspection of our potatoes going into the United States.


James Joseph Hughes: There must be something wrong about that.


John Douglas Hazen: Our potatoes are admitted to the United States without any Canadian inspection at all.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: While there may not be a Canadian inspection, there is a very severe American inspection, which only takes place at a few isolated points, probably at Boston and somewhere in New York state. The places of inspection are so far away that our growers or merchants dare not take the chance of selling to the United States buyers because their shipments might be rejected.


John Douglas Hazen: My information from the deputy minister and the Entomologist of the department is that it is a matter of mere form in the United States, and that it is not serious in any way.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That may be so at the present time, but it was not so a month ago.


John Douglas Hazen: My information is that the importer of potatoes in the United States gets a permit for taking them in, and that permit names the point at which they will be inspected. The assurance to the Department of Agriculture here from the Department of Agriculture in the United States is to -the effect that the inspection will be of a very ordinary character, and that there will be no shutting out of our potatoes unless it is evident that they are. affected with a serious disease. If they are only reasonably affected by disease they will be passed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What ports will be available to Maritime Province shippers? [DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: They will specify them in the permit.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As a matter of fact, what port do they specify?


John Douglas Hazen: They will consider the convenience of the importer. They do not restrict it to any special port, but they will name the port that suits the convenience of the man, one of their own citizens, who is importing the potatoes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Then, as far as the Maritime Provinces are concerned,, Boston would be the port of entry in nearly every case.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Up to five or six weeks ago the conditions of these inspections were so severe that merchants in New Brunswick could hardly take the responsibility of sending potatoes down there because in many cases what they considered to be a perfectly good article would be condemned

when it got to Boston, and, after they had paid the freight and duty, they would have nothing left. In many cases they were called upon to make good a shortage.


John Douglas Hazen: There has not been much movement to the United States lately, because the price has been so high at home.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, the price in Canada has been abnormally high and the crop has been very light. Yet the price in the United States is little better than it is in Canada.


John Douglas Hazen: It is now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It has been during the
whole season except on two occasions and for two or three days at a time. If the road were perfectly open, you could be assured that, if our farmers could get the benefit of the extra 10 per cent, they would do so. One reason why the farmer has not got the extra price is because the inspection has been so onerous that he dare not take the chance. I do not know that this Government could accomplish anything. I am only pointing the situation out to the minister, and I realize that he is not the minister of the department, and I therefore do not expect him to answer these questions readily. But, if something could be done by the department to get them to throw the door a little wider open so as to make it an ordinary commercial transaction, it would be a great benefit to the farmers of the Maritime Provinces.


John Douglas Hazen: T'he minister took this matter up personally. He went to Washington and saw Mr. Houston, the Agricultural Secretary, at Washington, and as a result the following regulations were promulgated:
Shipment of Potatoes to United States.
On and after the 1st January, 1916, potatoes may be shipped from Canada to the United States, subject to the following conditions:
(1)	Potatoes offered for export to the United States must be free from injurious diseases and insect nests.
(" Injurious diseases and insect pests " shall not apply to diseases common and widespread in both Canada and the United States, but in the case of even such common and widespread diseases the stock offered for shipment shall be reasonably free from infection, with such diseases.)
(2)	No shipment may be made until a permit has been issued to the United States importer as provided for in the United States regulations. Each shipment should therefore be designated on the accompanying papers by the number which will be furnished by the United States importer.
Inspection will be made by a United States inspector at the port of entry specified in the
permit, and if the shipment be found to be diseased, entry may be refused.
(3) No inspection or certification will be required prior to shipment, but potato growers and shippers are advised that the continuation of such entry will depend on the offering for entry into the United States of potatoes free from dangerous diseases and insect pests.
All persons engaged in this trade should have their potatoes carefully " racked," and any diseased or scabby potatoes removed.
For further information, apply to the Dominion Botanist, Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa.
Published by the direction of the Hon. Martin Burrell, Minister of Agriculture, Ottawa, December 27, 1915.	-
In the view of the department the restrictions are not onerous in any way. The minister has done everything he possibly could, but if there is any more that can be done I am sure he will gladly do it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These regulations may be all right from the point of view of the department. But they are not farmers; they only think they are farmers. They do not know the difficulty of tilling the soil and of trying to make the farm pay the bills. To the practical farmer, however, these regulations seem altogether impracticable. The potato business is handled in . carload lots. A man in Boston may wire: " Can you Ship me five or ten cars of potatoes to-morrow?" The merchant replies: " I can, or I cannot, at such and such a price." Now, if these potatoes were going from China to British Columbia it would be all right. In that case you would know exactly who was the owner, and who was the consignee, and just where the potatoes were to be inspected. There would be plenty of time. But in the case of this shipment of potatoes to Boston, one does not know at what point the potatoes will be stopped. They may be stopped at Portland, or go on to Boston, or be turned off to Lowell or some other place in the States. If the purchaser has to make all these arrangements before he can get a carload of potatoes, it will absolutely tie up the business. Why, the market may change ten cents a barrel in the meantime, and with a fluctuating market it is impossible to carry on business of this kind. These regulations may look all right on paper, but when applied to every-day business they improve conditions very little, if at all. Our potatoes go not only to Boston, but to all parts of the States. If we had them inspected at the nearest point it would be different. All potatoes from the Maritime Provinces have to go through

Vanceboro. If for some reason the inspector at Vanceboro should not pass the potatoes, they can be sent on to Montreal or Toronto; but, if you are going to have the potatoes inspected at Boston, you may lose the whole shipment if the inspector turns you down there, and they will do it with

out any reason whatever. The risks are so great that the ordinary merchant will not take chances.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend lives in a district where the potato is a very important item of commerce, and, consequently has a more intimate acquaintance with the business than I have. But I am informed by the officers of the department that these regulations not only read all right, 'but work all right. In fact, since they were promulgated the department has not had a single complaint, and if there had been any complaints we should have heard of them from our inspectors, who are moving around the country.


James Joseph Hughes: When did these regulations go into effect?


John Douglas Hazen: On the 1st of January, 1916. I can understand that there might be a case in which it would be more convenient for a shipper to have his potatoes inspected at Vanceboro than at Boston, but that is a matter which rests with the Government of the United States, and they ha-re evidently taken the view that they ought to be guided by the wishes of the men to whom they grant the permit to bring potatoes into the United States. I do not- see that it would make very much difference to the man importing, whether the potatoes were inspected at Vanceboro or at Boston, except that Boston is a large potato centre, and that might make some difference. But, as I said before, we have not receivea a single complaint from any of the shippers in the whole country.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am speaking from my own personal knowledge. I raise a few potatoes myself. On the 1st of January I had about two carloads of potatoes in the warehouse. I naturally wanted as good a price as I could get for them. I found that the Boston price was a little higher than the price in Montreal or Toronto. I was in touch with a commission merchant in Boston, a friend of mine, who would handle the shipment for me. I went to some merchants in Canada with whom I was well acquainted and they all advised me not to ship to Boston; they said they had tried it them-

selves, but the regulations were so onerous that it was too risky. The result was that I sold my two carloads in Canada. I got $3 a barrel for them.


John Douglas Hazen: More than you would have got in Boston.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not finding fault
with the price. I think I got more than they were worth. But those were the facts in my own case.


James Joseph Hughes: The hon. member for
Carleton (Mr. Carvell) has mentioned some difficulties in connection with shipping potatoes by land to the United States. But the man who ships by water has even greater difficulties. When shipping potatoes from Prince Edward Island we usually send them by schooner; whereas a carload takes about 600 bushels, a schooner takes about 6,000 bushels or more; and the larger the quantity uf course the greater the risk. The embargo on potatoes has not made any difference in the last two years, because the price in )the United States was low and our own price was just about the same level. However, in some year it might happen that there was a short crop in the United States and a big crop in Canada, and then the privilege of exporting potatoes to the United States would be of considerable advantage. If such a condition should arise, the time would be too short to make new regulations, and I think the regulations should be made in advance to provide for such a contingency. I presume that the Agricultural Department at Washington made these changes in view of representations that our potatoes had no disease. It would be a good thing if we could g<!t that fact established and the embargo removed. The risk would then not be so great. Anybody in the shipping business will understand this at once.


John Douglas Hazen: The embargo is removed.


James Joseph Hughes: But the inspection is still there.


John Douglas Hazen: Of course, it is their own
inspection and made for their own purposes.


James Joseph Hughes: If that could be removed and we could get back to the conditions that prevailed four or five years ago, it would be much better. Anybody in the shipping business will understand that no person could take the risk of sending a cargo of potatoes from Prince Edward Island, for instance, to Boston, with the possibility of having them turned down. Potatoes are a perishable article and the

cargo would prove a total loss if rejected by the inspector. We should be very little worse off if the embargo were still there. If an arrangement could be made under which the United States authorities would accept the certificate of some official in Canada or at the port of export, that would overcome the difficulty. If that cannot be done, of course it cannot be helped. But unless some such arrangement can be made, no shipper will take the chance of having a cargo oi potatoes thrown back on his hands, and no business will be done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not going to make any recriminations about the army of inspectors that travel around the country. These positions were a godsend to some of the smaller office-seekers. When one of the faithful got a little ugly, they could make him a potato inspector, and thus an easy way was afforded out of a good many political difficulties.


An hon. MEMBER:: No responsibility.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No responsibility, and a good salary; and not only that but no requirement in the way of knowledge-anybody could be a potato inspector. The whole thing was a farce and made no difference whatever except that it cost the country a lot of money. I would like to know how many of these inspectors are still employed. There are two gentlemen at least living in New Brunswick, and holding these positions, and so far as we can see they receive the same salaries as last year and do nothing. We had them by the. dozen last year. How many are there left, and what are their names?


John Douglas Hazen: The inspectors employed
at present under' the Destructive Insect and Pest Act are: J. R. Brownlee, P. R. Cowan, B.S.A., W. O. Johnston, George Partridge, Sydney G. Peppin, and R. Tre-9 p.m. panier. These men were engaged during the summer conducting field inspection of potatoes and demonstrating simple control measures for potato diseases, which have caused considerable economic loss throughout the Maritime Provinces. On some 450 farms the removal of diseased hills of potatoes was inaugurated and carried on by the farmers under the supervision of the inspectors, with results that were satisfactory at harvest time. The quality of potatoes harvested by these farmers exceeded anything they had harvested before. In addition, potato spraying demonstrations were held at a large number of farms since it is found that . late
blight causes incalculable damage. From a careful examination, diseases were found to prevail causing losses as follows: Black leg, 7 per cent loss, 840,000 bushels; Rhizoc-tonia, 5 per cent loss, ot 600,000 bushels; mosaic disease, 10 per cent loss, or 1,200,000 bushels; late blight, 25'per cent, or 3,000,000 bushels; total of 47 per cent, or 5,640,000 bushels. A general statement from Prince Edward Island shows that the losses due to late blight in 1915, when it was particularly severe, amounted to not less than 2,000,000 bushels of potatoes. Both these estimates entirely neglect the consequential loss resulting from diseases during storage, which, on the average, amount to 17 per cent of the tubers in storage. It will be evident that there was urgent need of a systematic educational campaign with a view to the eradication of these excessive losses. The inspectors, under the direction of Messers. Murphy and Cunningham, carried on spraying demonstrations in the farms in their several districts. The Tesult was gratifying. The crop gave a return of 97 bushels an acre on the average over that of the unsprayed fields, while in one case 113 bushels an acre were harvested after being sprayed by inspectors over the crop from neighbouring unsprayed fields. Furthermore, the inspectors carried on experiments at four farms relating to the control of powdery scab. These plots had to be planted, manured, treated .and sprayed up to 'harvest time, and to be harvested in order to collect the necessary data. Already these experiments have revealed that certain chemical substances had a decided beneficial influence on the control of this scab. The inspectors also assisted in the work commenced on the reestablishment of the Gar.net Chile industry for the Bermuda market, a problem of much economic importance to Nova Scotia districts. These and other field experiments resulted in the production of a superior grade of potatoes. During winter the inspectors continued seed selections on the farms where experiments were carried on, as well as on those from which diseases were eliminated by demonstrating to the farmers. This preliminary work, essential for the securing of good seed strains, was found very necessary; and the result of this work will surely show up next harvest when potatoes of a quality, purity and freedom from diseases are available as never before. A study of 115 varieties of potatoes grown in New Brunswick was also commenced, and selections are being made of

varieties particularly resistant to certain diseases. The study of these varieties is now being continued under the direction of the Dominion botanist by Mr. Cowan, also an inspector. Up to date, the time for the inspector has not only been very fully and usefully occupied but additional work in other directions, is proposed in the coming year which would make the retention of the six inspectors now employed very necessary. The work covers fully the provinces of Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Quebec and New Brunswick. The work on the elimination of potato diseases, already begun, it is contemplated, will be continued next year in order to be prepared for the keeping open of. foreign *markets of consequence to the growers, particularly under the new agreement with the United States.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister's statement is another statement that looks nice on paper-but that is about all there is to it. The fact is, there has never been a poorer potato crop in the Maritime Provinces in seven or eight years than there was last year, notwithstanding that we had this army . of inspectors. All this talk about powdery scab is sheer moonshine. The Government employed, an entomologist at a large salary simply for the purpose of going down to New Brunswick and preventing the farmer from getting the price for his potatoes that he ought to get. I say the Government should be condemned for that, and the entomologist should be fired.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN:: What does the hon. gentleman call this disease in the potatoes?
Mr. CARVELL; There is no disease.


Angus Alexander McLean: What do you call this scab?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Scab, of course; that is what it has been called ever since you and I were born.


Angus Alexander McLean: I suppose it is hereditary?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You will always find a few potatoes with scab upon them. As for powdery scab, that is all moonshine. The fact that it is all nonsense was the reason why the Unted States Government removed the embargo.


John Douglas Hazen: The result of these investigations caused the United States to do that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These gentlemen went around the country a year ago and condemned the potatoes of a large proportion *of the farmers in my county, because, as they said, they were full of powdery scab. But I can produce men-by the dozen I was going to say-who planted the very potatoes that these scientific gentlemen pronounced, as being badly affected with powdery scab, and you never saw cleaner or better potatoes in your life than were grown from them. I can produce men right in my constituency who will make affidavit to that effect. This talk about powdery scab is just another means of finding places for political friends who want to earn their living without working. This question of spraying potatoes is better known among the farmers of New .Brunswick than if is among the officers of this department. At no place' on the American continent has potato growing reached as high a state of efficiency as it has along the St. John river in the province of New Brunswick and across the line-in the state of Maine. I think it is the opinion of most farmers in the Maritime Provinces that spraying with the Bordeaux mixture is usually productive of good. They claim that it removes the fungus growth, or what is usually called. rust. When I was home the last week in January I discussed this matter with a gentleman who told me that he had sprayed his potato plants six or seven times during the summer. The spraying is done with a machine costing over $100; as the machine-goes along, the spray is automatically pumped under the leaves and -stalks of. the plant. He said that he sprayed the whole field of potatoes with the .exception of half a dozen rows, and that when he came to dig them he had a better yield from the -half-dozen tows- than he had from the rest of the field, which he had sprayed.
I want to be fair in this matter; I will give both sides of the case. A gentleman from Floreneeville told me that he sprayed all but half a dozen tows, and that he got better results from the sprayed portion than from the portion which he had not sprayed; so, you have evidence both ways. In my judgment the spraying does good. But the farmer knows that; he does not need any information on that subject from the inspectors or from the Department of Agriculture. Last year I did not spray the plants, and I got just as good a crop as my neighbours did; perhaps I will use the spray next year, because I think it might

do some good. It is an insult to the farmers of New Brunswick for these inspectors to go around the country and presume to teach the farmers how to raise potatoes. This entomologist held a meeting in my town, with the Commissioner of Agriculture in New Brunswick, and they preached that there was nothing in the world but powdery scab, and that it would have to be eradicated. They had some of the men so scared that they would not allow the inspectors on the premises for fear they would poison them over this question of powdery scab. This same entomologist had another meeting down there within the last three or four months, and they say that there is no powdery scab, and never was any. That is what the Secretary of Agriculture for New Brunswick says. There never was any powdery scab; the whole thing was a farce from the beginning. Let us get rid of these inspectors: the farmers do not want them; they are no good. Let the farmers go on in their own way; they know how to raise potatoes. Several thousand dollars will be saved, and there will be an advantage to the minister, because he will not have so many applications from office-seekers.


John Douglas Hazen: I have not been pressed by people seeking positions as inspectors. I do not think that any one ever came to me asking to be appointed to inspect the potatoes of New Brunswick. With regard to powdery scab, an embargo was placed upon Canadian potatoes going into the United States because it was claimed by the advisers of the Agricultural Department of the United States that powdery scab existed very largely in the province of New Brunswick. That impression has been removed, largely through the action of the Minister of Agriculture, who was able to fortify his position by the information that he received from the inspectors who investigated this matter. If we had not had a scientific-man to investigate this subject and make report, I doubt very much whether the Department of Agriculture of the United States could have been persuaded to lift the embargo. They have not only removed the embargo, but have admitted that powdery scab did not exist to the extent that they believed it did, and that it was not sufficiently dangerous to justify the placing of an embargo. Our potatoes are now subject simply to inspection by somebody in the United States, whereas, when the embargo prevailed, arrangements were made by which the potatoes were inspected in Canada by Canadian inspectors. I do.not
see how the Agriculture Department or its inspectors were in any way responsible for the placing of this embargo upon our potatoes. The people in the United States may have been actuated by the best of good faith when they expressed the belief that this alleged disease was dangerous, but they have practically admitted their error since then.
Mr. HUGHES': When was it that representations were made to the United States that there was no disease in our potatoes?


John Douglas Hazen: Representations were made to them from the beginning. I think it was some time last fall, in November, that the Minister of Agriculture got this undertaking from Mr. Houston.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That, no doubt, is the
explanation which has been given to my hon. friend the acting minister. This idea about powdery scab was got up not in Washington, but in the town of Caribou, in the state of Maine. When the potato growers and dealers of the county of Aroostook found that under the Wilson tariff potatoes were practically on the free list, a duty of only about 10 per cent being left on them, they said: "We have got to stop those Canadian potatoes from getting in here." And they started out. I know the man's name, I know the combination, the gentleman who started the proposition. They sent a lot of detectives down to New Brunswick, who claimed they found powdery scab.' Then there was a big outcry and the matter was carried to Washington. Delegates from all over the United States went to Washington. I think the Deputy Minister of Agriculture was there. There were 500 delegates, all protesting against the importation of Canadian potatoes because of powdery scab. Then the Dominion entomologist went to Woodstock-it was more of a political meeting than anything else -and met the Secretary of Agriculture of New Brunswick. They decided that the country was full of powdery scab. They appointed their horde of inspectors, who went around the country up till last May, and stopped shipment after shipment of potatoes because they said they were affected with powdery scab. Every officer of this department and of the department in New Brunswick was protesting that this country was simply alive with powdery scab, and these inspectors were refusing the farmers the right to sell potatoes because of it. Then, when the United States Government became ashamed of the trans-

action, these same gentlemen came round and said there was no powdery scab. Now the minister says there is no powdery scab, and the Secretary of Agriculture for New Brunswick says there never was any powdery scab. It only shows the utter nonsense of the whole transaction. The thing has simply been worked-I do not know whether it was for political jobs or not, but it looks as if that was all there was to it. However, we have demonstrated that the powdery scab was only a farce to start with. The potatoes are all right, and if the minister will use his good offices with the Department of Agriculture of the United States I hope he can have these ridiculous regulations removed, so that the trac^e may go on, subject to the little duty imposed on potatoes entering the United States.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend may be sure that the Minister of Agriculture will do all he can-he is intensely anxious to do all he can-to help the potato growers and all agriculturists.
Mr. .1. J. HUGHES: The minister is not acquainted with all the facts, or at least he has not stated them to the committee, with regard to this potato business. When the Wilson Administration came into office in the United States, the duty on potatoes was reduced to 10 per cent, ad valorem, to all countries in the world. Under the reciprocity arrangement proposed between Canada and the United States, we would have had the privilege of exporting potatoes to that country, and no other country would have had that privilege. But in consequence of the Underwood tariff potatoes began to come in freely in the autumn of 1912 from Great Britain and Germany, ,and, as the officers of the Department of Agriculture well know there is -a very dangerous disease in Europe known as canker. The United States authorities became alarmed lest, on account of these heavy importations from Europe, that disease might be introduced into their country, and a convention was called at Washington to take the whole matter into consideration. The department here sent to that convention an officer who stated that Canadian potatoes were diseased, and so he assisted the people of the United States in puting an embargo on potatoes. Since' that was done and since it was brought to the attention of the department how serious a mistake they had made and how greatly they had injured this country

by restricting the exportation of potatoes, they have been trying to have that embargo removed, and have been telling the people of the United States that we have practically no disease. Well, repentance is better than continuance in error.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In sin.


James Joseph Hughes: Or in sin. It is repentance. But we have been seriously injured by it, and it will be difficult to get the regulations removed. I quite agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell), that this whole thing was largely a farce, and that the disease existed only in the imagination of these inspectors, for some reason or other. The farmers down in my province have proved that bejond shadow of doubt. The inspectors either did not know their business or they had some object in view that we cannot understand. As a matter of fact, I know the farm to which two inspectors went in the autumn of 1912. That was the farm of a large grower of potatoes. They inspected his cellar, reported that his potatoes were diseased, and told him that under no condition must he use those potatoes for seed; that he must get clean seed or otherwise he would have no potatoes; that he would not only ruin himself but injure his neighbours He was a practical man and knew that there was nothing the matter with his potatoes-that they had no disease. They were the same that year as they had been for forty years. There was some scab but, as my hon. friend says, you will hardly get a field of potatoes without a few scabby ones. He went on and planted those potatoes, he got seed from them for two years, and two years afterwards the inspectors came, inspected his potatoes, and gave him a clean bill of health. He was the only man in the settlement who had no disease in his potatoes. In the face of facts like that, known to everybody in the settlement and in neighbouring settlements, it is absolutely no use for the inspectors to be sent down. I seriously advise the Minister of Agriculture, if he has no use for these men, to see the Militia Department and get them to go to the war.
I believe that Artemus Ward wanted to send all his wife's relations to the war. The farmers of Prince Edward Island want to see all these gentlemen go to the war. They might do some good there, but they are certainly an injury to the agricultural industry of this country.
There are a number of other professors or

lecturers who go around telling the farmers how to farm. They may have been in college and have learned the Latin names of vegetables and plants, but -they know very, very little about practical farming- and since the present Government came into power their numbers have been increased and they seem to grow less wise. Bums has described men of this kind by saying that they go into colleges sticks and come out asses. There are a great number of them in the Agricultural Department. I shall tell the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, who understands farming, I presume, what I heard one of these men say at a meeting. He was telling the farmers how to farm. A number of farmers attended the meeting-not a great number attend them in my province now. This lecturer invited questions. One farmer asked him how he would bring on some worn-out fields on the back of his farm. He had no manure, and ' as this was a professor who could give information on any subject, he asked him what he should do. And do you kn'ow the answer he got? Sow clover. Now, any practical man who has ever farmed at all knows that you must have the land in good cultivation before you can get a catch of clover. To sow clover in worn-out land-why, you *might as well sow it on the seashore. After that, nobody paid any attention to . what he said. That was the kind of man who was sent down there to tell the people how to farm. Surely something can be saved by putting these men on to some other work. The number going around the country is very large. I heard one member from the province of Quebec ask the minister to send some one through that province-send them to' Quebec, send them anywhere, but do not send them to Prince Edward Island.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I was very much impressed by the statement "made by my hon friend from Carleton, N.B. (Mr. Carvell) in reference to the inspection of potatoes. I must confess *I have not had a great deal of experience in the potato business, although we grow a great many potatoes for export in and around m'y constituency. But it seemed to me, from What my hon. friend from Carleton said in regard to the inspectors in and around that portion of New Brunswick, that some of his costituents have a reasonable ground for complaint against the Department of Agriculture. A practical illustration will enable the committee to understand the condition of affairs better than
*anything I could say. This gentleman-I forget his name, I think he came from Victoria county-sold a carload of potatoes last spring to a gentleman in my county-in fact, in my parish. Whether the potatoes *were good or bad I am not in a position to tell the committee definitely; but they came to Sackville by rail, and, for some reason or other, whether proper or not, the consignee refused to accept them, declaring that they were not up to the standard of the potatoes he had paid for. He had purchased the potatoes under a written contract, and a Clause in the contract was to the effect that the potatoes must be inspected and passed by the inspector of potatoes in that locality. The shipper of the potatoes loaded his potatoes, and the inspector deputed a man to inspect them. The potatoes were given a clean bill of health by the sub-inspector, and, as I have said, they were shipped to the consignee in Sackville. When they arrived there the consignee would not accept them, and they remained on the track for some days or weeks, until eventually the officials of the Intercolonial Railway sold them to pay for demurrage and freight. They were purchased by a number of people around Sackville -for as low as eighteen cents, twenty cents, and twenty-five cents a bushel. According to the information which I received from the gentleman who purchased them, they were excellent potatoes. A lawsuit resulted, the gentleman in Victoria country, or Carleton county, suing the consignee for .the price of the carload of potatoes. The case was tried in the court at Dorchester a couple of months ago. I ,was not engaged in the case. Mr. Hartley, I believe, acted for the gentleman from Victoria county, and his client happened to come to my office to get subpoenas for some of the witnesses who had purchased the potatoes, and I heard the story. The seller of the potatoes lost his case, because it turned out that the man who inspected them was a subinspector appointed by the real inspector, and a man not legally qualified to inspect. Therefore the bill of health which he had granted was of no use; the judge withdrew the case from the jury, and the Victoria gentleman lost the value of his carload of potatoes because of the neglect and carelessness of the potato inspector in my hon. friend's constituency. I do not know whether the system of inspection is conducted properly generally, but I think that that man who suffered loss by the neglect

and carelessness of the inspector has an equitable claim upon the Government to be recouped.


Mr. MORPHY:: Was the inspector himself present?*


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not know whether he was there or not; the judge ruled that he had no authority to appoint a sub-inspeotor.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The inspector may have been sick, and many have appointed some one to act in the emergency.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Why should the inspector appoint a man who was not legally qualified to make the inspection?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Does the hon, gentleman undertake to say that in other respects the plaintiff's action was well founded? Had he a written contract?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes, he had a written contract. I ,do not wish to mislead the committee in any way. I do not know what the jury might have done if the case had gone before them, but the judge withdrew the case on the legal point that the seller had not fulfilled part of the contract be-oause he had not received a proper certificate of inspection from Ihe real inspector.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Were the potatoes perfectly good?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Perfectly good.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Were they pronounced
excellent by those who bought them?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: And there was no suggestion that the purchasers could have inspected the carload and found the potatoes good?


Arthur Bliss Copp: That was the evidence of the people who purchased the potatoes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend from
Perth (Mr. Morphy) does not understand the situation. The whole inspection was a farce; that is the difficulty. It is not as if the Government appointed technical experts from Ottawa or from some of the colleges. There are a few inspectors of that class, but the ordinary inspector is simply some fellow who was out of a job.


John Douglas Hazen: Does the hon. gentleman
contend that it is the duty of the inspectors appointed by the Government to inspect potatoes sold by a gentlemen in Carleton county to a gentleman in Westmorland county?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is the whole
trouble.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That was part of the contract. [DOT]


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The whole trouble is that the Government appoint any fellow out of a job who has enough political pull to get the position. The inspectors themselves look upon the whole thing as a farce. They say: "this is a farce anyway; it does not make any difference whether we sign that paper, or get some one else to sign it." The inspector referred to appointed some one else; the matter got into the law courts, and unfortunately there was a condition in the contract which made inspection necessary before the seller could have a right of action. Therefore the two men-the man who was appointed by the Government and the man whom he appointed as sub-agent-had the same knowledge, or, rather, I should say, neither of them had any. Unfortunately, the wrong man signed the document; that was the trouble.
For the development of the dairying industries, and the improvement in transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products, $155,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Is this the item out of
which Mr. Ruddick's salary is paid?


John Douglas Hazen: No; Mr. Ruddick's salary
is paid out of the Civil Government Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. All the salaries are paid out of the Civil Government vote.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, the staff will be paid out of this?


John Douglas Hazen: No, the salaries are paid
out of Civil Government Estimates.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Would the minister explain, then, just what this $155,000 is to be expended for?
Mr. .HAZEN: This item is for the development of the dairying industry and improvement in transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products. The amount spent last year was $215,910. The Estimate is made up this year as follows:
Headquarters	$15,250
Dairy division	 97,150
Markets	 21,790
Cold storage service	 20,800
These items are subdivided again in this way:	The expenses of headquarters and
branch offices, consisting of printing, stationery, contingencies, unforeseen expenses; Montreal office, rent, water rates, telephone, and incidental expenses; Halifax office,

rent, telephone, etc. Dairy division-inspectors of dairy products, cheese and butter weighing and cow testing, dairy recorders, dairy stations, apparatus for experiments, supplies and repairs and experimental cold storage warehouse at Grimsby. Markets division-inspectors at Montreal, Portland, Halifax and in Great Britain, and temporary employees at Montreal. Cold storage branch-cream cold storage bonus, travelling expenses, cold storage inspector, and items of this sort. I do not suppose my horn friend wants me to go into all these details.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: What is the explanation of the $21,000 for markets?


John Douglas Hazen: These are the items making up the expenditure of $21,790: Permanent employees in Canada-cargo inspector at Montreal, $1,500; cargo inspectors at Montreal, Portland and Halifax-


John Howard Sinclair: I am not so much interested in the items, but I wo\ild like to have an explanation of what is done in the way of looking for markets for our agricultural products.


John Douglas Hazen: Cargo inspectors are stationed at Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, Liverpool, Bristol, and, in the winter season, at Portland, Maine, to report on the conditions of all perishable goods delivered to and discharged from steamships, and to supervise the handling generally of these products. A large number of selfrecording thermometers and thermostats are used, and thousands of records are available. A Canadian shipper may, by application to the Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner, secure complete records of any consignments from the time the goods arrive at the loading port in Canada until they are distributed in the United Kingdom. This applies also, but not so generally, t<\ shipments to South Africa and Australia. They also supervise the refrigerator car services.


John Gillanders Turriff: A little over a month ago all the members of the House-at least I did-got notice from the department that the report of the Dairy Commissioner had been issued and that we could receive it by going to the distributing office. When we went there we found that the report was not available, and it was not available for ten days, or quite a time after that. My information is that' the report that had been issued was called in and that a new
report was issued. Perhaps the minister would give an explanation.
' Mr. HAZEN: My information is that the report as prepared in the first instance, and before it had been distributed, contained, references to certain matters in connection with the war, the publication of which would have been entirely against public policy and public interest at the present time. That was eliminated from the report.


John Gillanders Turriff: Would the minister state what the substance of the report was?


John Douglas Hazen: No; it might as well be printed in the report and circulated as that I should tell it to the House.


John Gillanders Turriff: My information is not exactly the same as the information the minister has. My information is that there were references to the sale of certain articles, but that after something had taken place in the House in connection with the sale of hay, this report was recalled. I notice in the index of the report that the first item is " War Office Agency." There is nothing whatever in the report about a War Office agency. A new report has been issued, but, as is usual in most shady transactions, care was not taken to cover up all the tracks. They forgot to take the index out of the new report. The index contains the reference "War Office agency," but there is absolutely nothing in the report in connection with the War Office agency. We have here a report with the first leaf cut out and another leaf pasted in. Any one can see that it is of absolutely different paper and different type. The sheet has obviously been pasted in. I am afraid the explanation given by the minister is not the right one. My information is that, afteT the discussion which the Minister of Agriculture and the hon. member for Car-leton had in the House over hay about a month ago, it was found necessary to cut this sheet out. I think the minister should give us some better explanation than. he has given.


John Douglas Hazen: I have given the explanation that was made to me. It occurs to me that what the hon. gentleman says confirms my explanation. He says that in the second book the index contains the reference "War Office agency," and that there is nothing in the report itself bearing on that subject The index has probably

been overlooked. That bears out the information that was given to me, which was to the effect that it was thought inimical to the public interests to publish what appeared in the first Teport, with regard to supplies that were being bought by the department for the British and Allied Governments.


John Gillanders Turriff: It would be pretty hard to make me believe that the gentleman in charge of getting out this report did not know what would be inimical to the public interests. He would know perfectly well what to put in the report and what to leave out. The fact is that after certain statements had been made in this House it was thought necessary to recall the first report, and take out this leaf. I feel certain of that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The silence of my hon. friend is very ominous. It seems to me that the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) has put a pretty straight proposition to the minister this evening. He practically says that he does not believe the explanation given by the minister. He does not mean that personally, of course.
I also want to add my testimony to the ability and knowledge and good judgment of the gentleman who submits this report. To my knowledge, he has been in the department for thirteen or fourteen years, and I think even longer than that. He has been making reports every year for the department, and I believe has been doing good work for Canada. I have nothing more to say about him. I do not believe he would put in one word that was inimical to the interests of this country, or one word that would help our enemies, or one word that would not be in the interests of the people of Canada who pay for the production of these reports and the salaries of the officials who are producing them. My information is that the only thing that has been taken out of the report was a statement to the effect that the department had purchased large quantities of hay, oats and flour. This was in" accordance with the satisfactory method adopted [DOT] by the Government at the time of the South African war; that is to say, to put in the report just a general statement of purchases. All that is entirely innocent and perfectly correct. But hon. gentlemen will remember that there was a discussion in the House on the . 25th and 27th of January last, during which I narrated some of the conditions in the prov-. 
ince of New Brunswick in regard to hay purchases by the Agricultural Department. The Minister replied on the 27th, and I am very sorry he is not here to-night. I am not going into this subject now because I hope to have an opportunity of discussing it with the minister when he is in the House again. But as the present Acting Minister of Agriculture was the man responsible for the difficulty, I might address him. I went to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and pointed out to him the iniquity that was being practised in my province and county. I said that if he would give a contract to McCain, who had the only compressing plant in Canada not in use at the time, or anybody else who would furnish some competition, I would be satisfied. That was followed by a letter addressed fio Mr. Ruddick, dated December 24, offering to pay for loose hay not less than $15 per ton if they would give a contract for from 3,000 to 5,000 tons. But they Tyould not do it, and the acting minister knows why they would, not do it. I had a conversation with the minister, and I am sorry we had a little disagreement as to the exact words used. We did not disagree with regard to the substance, however. I told the minister that if he would give McCain or any other responsible firm a contract, in order to furnish some competition, I would be satisfied and nothing more would be said about it. But instead of doing that, the minister came to this House and read an old agreement which was made with a company with whom I was connected fourteen years ago, when I was a private citizen, not a member of the legislature or a member of the House of Commons. This document, which was public property all over New Brunswick for years, was prepared in the presence of every hay dealer in the county. While there was a clause in the agreement restricting the price to the farmer,., my hon. friend should have known that the contract could never have been filled without that clause in it. Smith demanded and was perfectly right in insisting on the clause being put in. He was signing a contract to furnish us with four thousand tons of hay. He said: "I am selling you 4,000 tons of hay at a certain price. If Bohan is allowed to go around the country buying hay and paying more than I can afford, I cannot fill my contract, and I want to be protected against that." Bohan Brothers were members of the parent company and might purchase without profit,

so we put the clause in. Bohan and all the other hay merchants present agreed to it. They knew all about it. It was put in at Smith's request.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What clause does my
hon. friend refer to?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That the farmer should not receive more than $8 a ton.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: And in case more than
$8 a ton was paid he should be fined.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Sit down, if you please. I do not know whether the farmer was to be fined. This thing has been public in New Brunswick for years.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Did the hon. gentleman draw up that agreement?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I helped to sign it. I
take my full share of responsibility.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: You have to.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do. I never go hack on anything I do, and I never say a thing behind a man's back that I would not. say to his face. I say that that clause was perfectly right from Smith's standpoint. If it had not been in the agreement, it is quite true that Bohan might have offered a larger price for a few lots of hay in each community, and Smith would then have to pay a greater price than he could afford.


Mr. WILCOX:: And the farmers would have benefited to that extent.
Mr., CARVELL: The farmer was getting $1.50 a ton more than he ever got in his life before.


Oliver James Wilcox: He must be getting $5 or $6 more at the present time.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: He is, and even then he is not getting within $1.50 of what he ought to get, and, when I started into this 'business he was not getting within $3 of what he ought to get. As I said, the clause was put in at Smith's request and for his protection. I asked the minister to give the contract to Mr. McCain, or some other responsible firm who would give us some competition, and in that case I would have nothing more to say. The minister did not say whether he would or would not, and at a subsequent conversation he said that he thought it was not possible. He said that he had given a contract to the Atlantic Hay company for 15,000 tons of hay, and that it was doubtful whether they could get more than that amount in New Brunswick, and that if a contract was given
to somebody else and they paid a higher price the Atlantic Hay company might not be able to fill their contract, and the department might be responsible to some extent. He did not think it would be fair and right. I want to tell this House what the acting minister knows better than any other man in Canada: he knows that he could not keep the lid on any longer; he knows that he had to give in. As the minister from New Brunswick he was compelled, not through my pressure, but through political pressure, to give a contract to another set of men, and I want to tell him that that 'hay compressing plant is in operation in .the town of Woodstock to-day, and the people of my constituency will get the competition which I urged the Government to provide some two months ago. If the Government had acted on my suggestion the matter would never have been discussed in this House, and it would not - have been necessary for my hon. friends opposite to mutilate a public document in order to get out of a difficulty in which they found themselves. The acting minister knows that, on account of a political rumpus in my constituency that threatened to rend the Conservative iparty in two, they were compelled to give a contract. Of course, the minister would not give it to McCain, for McCain is a Liberal, though he promised that he would pay the farmers $15 a ton for their hay. It was given to my hon. friend's friend, Smith, who has been buying at from $13 to $13.50 a ton. It is true that the only compressing plant that could carry on this business was owned by McCain in Woodstock. But he was a Liberal, and no amount of consideration for the public interest would drive the Minister of Agriculture to give the contract to a Liberal-that is a piece of political heresy that he has never been guilty of yet. But when the trouble got so bad that it threatened to split the 'Tory party in two, and when they came and said: Give us a contract or we will rebel; they gave a contract to a body of Conservatives. One of them is the police magistrate, a splendid gentleman, as the Minister of Militia (Sir Sam Hughes) would say. Another is a lawyer; another a farmer; and two others are merchants. They are all good, responsible men-no fault to find with them. They purchased the McCain press; and they have got a contract, I do not know for how much. It was for 3,000 tons, but perhaps the minister will tell me the amount of it

now. And this concern is doing the very thing that I asked the minister to do two months ago, and which he refused. And, instead of meeting the charge I made, he read an ancient document to try and make a case against me. I notice that he did please some of his followers here, but he only made himself ridiculous in New Brunswick where the facts are known. The fact is, the pressure became so strong that he could not resist it and had to come to the proposition I made and do what I asked him-except that, instead -of giving the contract to the man who owned the p<lant and who had agreed to pay a good price to the farmer, he gave it .to political friends who bought the plant and who, so far as I know, did not agree to pay any particular price to the growers of the hay. But natural competition will run the price up, and the farmers will get a better price than they have been getting. This was done at the risk of a fight with Smith. They
10 p.m. went to St. John and Smith began to tell them:	We have
got Carvell licked. But these gentlemen said: " we are not here to lick Carvell, but we .are here to lick you if you don't give us contracts." They came to Ottawa and saw the minister, and the minister climbed down-not to help lick Carvell, but to save the other from a licking. That is an illustration of how things are being carried on by this department, and by this branch of the department. I find no fault with the officers; they are only the unfortunate medium through whom the dictates of the men behind the minister are carried out. I do not want to go any further now, but when I have an opportunity, later in the session, of discussing this matter with the minister. I shall have a few things more to say to him. For the present I am happy to tell the House and the country that the minister has been compelled to do the very thing I wanted him to do, except he has not done it nearly so well as it would have been done if he had taken my proposition. But my people will get the benefit of competition to some extent, and I hope they will get $15 a ton for their hay. Had I not interfered, they would have been selling to Smith for $12 and Smith would have cleaned up $75,000 instead of about $40,000.


John Douglas Hazen: No one knows better than my hon. friend that this discussion is absolutely out of order; but he has wanted an opportunity to make a statement to the House regarding this hay transaction, and, that being the case, I did not want to raise

a point of order, because I think nothing is gained in Committee of Supply by adhering too closely to the rule and confining the . discussion to the single item before the Chair. The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) and the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) have talked of the " garbling " of the report. I made the statement supplied by the department as to what occurred, and I think that hon. gentlemen should have accepted that statement. They are not disposed to do so, and so I am obliged to say to the committee that [DOT] the suspicions of the hon. gentlemen are entirely unwarranted and unfounded. The change in the report had nothing to do with contracts for hay, or with any matters of that sort. That statement I make on the authority of the responsible officials of the department. I believe that statement to be true; I have no doubt of the truth of it.
The matter of the hay contract is pretty fresh in the minds of hon. members. We heard the attack made by the hon. member for Carleton on the Minister of Agriculture and we heard the minister's reply, and every one who heard that discussion knows that the Minister of Agriculture did not come off second best, but that he was able to maintain the position he had taken and to answer completely my hon. friend from Carleton. That hon. gentleman now is posing as the champion of the farmers of his constituency,- although- the minister showed the House that the hon. gentleman had not been so much the champion of the farmers in the past, but was ready to fine the farmers and punish them if they sold their hay for more than $8 a ton- not a very large sum to get for hay in the county of Carleton. But I do not intend to go into that, more especially as the hon. gentleman has indicated that he in-, tends to bring it up at a later day when the Minister of Agriculture is in the House. But I was not compelled by political or other considerations to take the^course he alleges I have taken. The estimate given to the department when the contract was entered into with the Imperial Hay Company-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Atlantic Hay Company.


John Douglas Hazen: The Atlantic Hay Company-I say the information in the possession of the department was that about 15,000 tons of the hay that would be required would be available from New Brunswick this year.

They awarded that contract for 15,000 tons. My hon. friend talks about Mr. Smith making from $60,000 to $75,000 out of the contract, but he knows that the final agreement was that Smith's books, or the books of the hay company, shall be open to the inspection of Government inspectors and accountants appointed by them, and that they shall not make a profit of more than $1 a ton on the hay they send out, the limit of which shall be $15,000, not $75,000, as stated by the hon. member for Carleton. The hon. gentleman sometimes talks in the language of exaggeration, but it is inexcusable for him to do so on this occasion, having in regard the statement made by the Minister of Agriculture concerning the agreement which was finally entered into. Every precaution was taken to see that everything was done regularly and in the proper manner. Now, what is the complaint cf the hon. member for Carleton? Some gentlemen from the county of Carleton made an application for another contract some weeks ago. They said they thought they [DOT]could supply 1,500 tons of hay, on the same terms and conditions as were contained in the agreement made with the hay company of which Mr. Smith and the Messrs. Peters are members. A contract was given these gentlemen, not for 1,500, but for 1,000 tons, because before they entered into the contract they said that that was all they would undertake to supply. In regard to my hon. friend's assertion that this is the first time that things were done contrary to the wishes of Mr. Smith, I desire to say that Mr. Smith had advised the department that he had no objection to offer if the contract was entered into with those gentlemen for the amount of hay which they said they were able to furnish. My understanding of the matter is that when it came to making the contract, they were willing to undertake to supply only 1,000 tons, intimating that perhaps at a later date, when they saw better how matters were and to what extent hay should be available in the country, they might be prepared to enter into a contract for the supplying of a further amount. The terms and conditions of this contract were the same as those of the agreement entered into with the other contractors, which provided that they could not make a profit of more than $1 a ton. I was not influenced by fear of schism in the Conservative party in Carleton county. They are good fighting men, as the Liberals in Carleton are, and when a contest comes they are prepared to stand together, more 90
strongly and more determinedly than they ever stood together in the past. The hon gentleman says that the facts are laughed at in New Brunswick. My information is of a very different character indeed. The greatest, possible interest has been taken in the matter, particularly in the hon. gentleman's constituency, where it is known that he is connected with the matter. If my information is correct, there is a feeling of indignation among the farmers in the county of Carleton over the publication of that contract which proposed to penalize and punish the farmers of the county for thinking of anything so iniquitous as selling their hay to any operator at more than $8 a ton. However, this is not the time and place to discuss this matter, although my hon. friend no doubt wanted an opportunity of making some reference to the debate that took place in which he and the Minister of Agriculture were the principal participants. I shall say nothing further about it at this time, except to assure the hon. member for Assiniboia and the hon. member for CaTleton, speaking in all sincerity, and having regard to the information which I have received, which I believe to be correct, that their suspicions with regard to what was in the report and what was afterwards deleted from it are absolutely without foundation.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I want to put my hon. friend right: it was not the farmer who might be penalized; it was the merchant.


John Douglas Hazen: He would be penalized
for paying the farmer a little more.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It was not so bad for the Minister of Agriculture to make an argument of the kind advanced by my hon. friend to-night, bepause the minister did not know what he was talking about. The acting minister talks about this man Smith bringing his books into court, and about allowing him only $1 a ton profit. The minister will do mighty well if he does not pay $25 a ton for that hay instead of $23, because the most glorious set of books ever seen on earth will come before the minister. When you talk to the farmers in New Brunswick about Smith's books being brought before the minister or before a chartered accountant or inspector of the Government-well, my hon. friend is smiling; he knows the circumstances.


John Douglas Hazen: 1 am smiling at my hon. friend.	.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: At the time of the South African war, Conservatives could get contracts.


John Douglas Hazen: They say they could not.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There were a couple of gentlemen in the city of St. John by the name of Peters; I do not think my hon. friend will say they are not Conservatives. My hon. friend made a slip a few minutes ago, when he referred to the Atlantic Hay Company as the Imperial Hay Company. The Imperial Hay Company-that was the Peters' concern-had a contract in 1901-02. They were good Conservatives, and they got the contract on the basis upon which contracts were given to any one else. These gentlemen were quarter owners of the Atlantic Hay Company. B. F. Smith Carle-leton county, was a quarter-owner, A. C. Smith & Co. of St. John were quarter-owners, the Peters' were quarter owners, and a man named Macdonell of Montreal had a quarter. The Peters' have made up their minds . that the company has been badly handled from the political standpoint. There has been such a row that they have withdrawn from the company, and have sent circular notices to the trade to that effect. So you see, Mr. Chairman, that my hon. friend is having his own troubles in New Brunswick over this hay business.


John Douglas Hazen: No trouble.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are some things that the hon. gentleman and I know which, perhaps, would not be interesting to the committee; therefore I shall not go into the matter any further. The history of the hay business in New Brunswick has not yet been half told. Possibly before we are a year older the minister and I may have another opportunity of enlightening the people a little on this wonderful question.
Arts and Agriculture-Fruit Branch, $115,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: When I was referring to the powdery scab business, I made reference to the Dominion entomologist; I should have said, "Dominion botanist." I want to make that explanation, because, when I come to think it over, I know enough about technical terms to know that it was the botanist, not the entomologist, that I was after.


John Gillanders Turriff: 
John Douglas Hazen: Under what circumstances did he say that?


John Gillanders Turriff: It was at a dairymen's annual convention at Hemmingford. It is a practice that should not be allowed. That was just before the elections took place in British Columbia, and as the duty was put on not so much to help the apple-growers as to help the politicians and the Government of British Columbia, surely it is enough for .the politicians to engage in that class of work. There are enough of them, when you take both sides, to discuss that thoroughly, and if the Department of Agriculture has no departmental work for this official, would it not be a good idea to let him devote his time to politics and save that much money in this time of stress, when we want to practise the utmost economy? Can the Acting Minister of Agriculture, now that the elections are over, and apparently the extra duty has not been of much advantage to the British Columbia politicians, tell us whether it is proposed to take that duty off? '


John Douglas Hazen: I dp not know the young man to whom my hon. friend refers, I can only assure my hon. friend that he had no instructions from me to go down and make any such statement, and I am quite satisfied that he got no instructions from any official occupying a position of responsibility in the department. It is not always safe, of course, to judge a man by a newspaper report of what he said. We all know that we often see reports of our speeches in newspapers that convey a different idea from what we had in mind. After all, a synoptic report is only the idea the reporter has of what the man says, and frequently the reporter's idea is incorrectly put into type. So a man's

speech is often misunderstood. I do not hesitate to say that no official of the department has a right to go into any part of the country and talk politics, and I will instruct the deputy minister to speak to Mr. Grindley about the matter. I am disposed to think that he may have referred to these duties as being of general assistance to the apple-growing industry, and it is quite likely that when we have the full text of his speech it will be seen that the synoptic report makes it convey a different meaning and that the speech which was actually made may not have been in any sense objectionable. As to the suggestion to change the tariff, I understand the resolutions will be before the House very soon, and that will be the time to discuss them.


John Gillanders Turriff: I quite agree that it
would be quite possible that the gentleman was mis-reported, and also quite possible, and I think most likely, that if he did make reference to the tariff, it was without any intention to discuss political matters.


Frank Oliver: What is the present annual production of apples in British Columbia?


John Douglas Hazen: The production for the last year was 650,000 boxes, which is equal to
1.000	cars. There are 3 boxes to a barrel.


Frank Oliver: I read a report from a
British Columbia paper to the effect that
30.000	acres were under orchard in British Columbia ,and that 40 per cent of that area was in bearing to a greater or less degree.,


John Douglas Hazen: That is about right, I am informed.


Frank Oliver: Has the department any
knowledge as to when the remaining 60 per cent will come into measurably full bearing?


John Douglas Hazen: They will all be in full
bearing in about ten years.


John Gillanders Turriff: Can the department give any information as to the apple-growing industry in British Columbia, the kinds of apples grown, and whether they are making any advancement?	'
* Mr. HAZEN: My information is that they are growing a very superior class of apples in British Columbia.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is a very illuminating answer, and I think we should let the item pass.
90*
Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products, $150,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Why is there a reduction in this item?


John Douglas Hazen: That is perhaps because
the amount last year was too large. The Cold Storage Act, I understand, covers four years. The first year you pay 30 per cent of the cost of erection, the second year 8 per cent, and then 4 per cent. The Estimate last year was very much over calculated. The amount spent last year was $83,280.


John Gillanders Turriff: Can the minister tell us whether the calculation this year is more nearly correct than it was last year?


John Douglas Hazen: What I am told is that it cannot be accurately estimated from year to yeiajr. Within a month or two, some application may come in asking for aid under the provisions of this Act.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Can the minister say how many companies have taken advantage of this Act? Some years ago, a company in my own town took advantage of it with some assistance from the Government of New Brunswick, and while the warehouse has not been a great success financially, I think the money has been well expended. I doubt whether there ever was a small amount of money spent in my constituency that produced better results than this grant for a cold storage warehouse.


John Douglas Hazen: I have a list of the warehouses erected since 1907. In Alberta, there are Campbell and Hamilton, Calgary and the Edmonton Cold Storage Company, Edmonton.


Frank Oliver: Has the grant to the Edmonton company been paid up, or is there something still coming to them?


John Douglas Hazen: There is $6,080 still coming to the Edmonton Cold Storage Company. I think it is due to-day, March 3, 1916.


Frank Oliver: That will be paid of courser


John Douglas Hazen: Oh, yes. In British Columbia there are the B. Wilson Company, Victoria; the Canadian Fish and Cold Storage Company, Prince Rupert; and the H. & K. Trading Company, Penticton. In Manitoba there is the Brandon Creamery and Supply Company, Brandon. In New Brunswick, there are the New Brunswick Cold Storage Company, St. John; and the Cold Storage Limited, Woodstock. In Nova Scotia there are the Lockport Cold Storage Company,

Lockport;-the North Atlantic Fisheries, Port Hawkesbury, and the Halifax Cold Storage Company, Port Hawkesbury. The Halifax Cold Storage Company's warehouse was burned in 1913. In Ontario, there are Scott and Hogg, Peterborough; the J. D. Moore Company, St. Mary's; Lemon Brothers, Owen Sound; the Chatham Fruit Growers' Association, Chatham; the O'Keefe & Drew Afibatoir Company,Chatham; the Palmerston Cold Storage Company, Palmerston; the Trenton Cooperage Mills, Limited, Trenton; the St. Lawrence Produce Company, Brock-ville; Flavelles, Limited, Lindsay; Gunn's, Limited, Harriston; the St. Thomas Cold Storage Company, St. Thomas; the Brantford Cold Storage Company, Brantford; the Whyte Packing Company, Mitchell; and the Algoma Produce Company, Sault Ste. Marie. In Prince Edward Island there is the Island Cold Storage Company, Charlottetown; in Quebec, the Dominion Fish and Fruit Company, Quebec, and J. H. Sans Regret, Joliette; in Saskatchewan, the Moosejaw Cold Storage Company, Moosejaw, the City Cold Storage Company, Regina, and H. Gauvin, Vonda.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Are there many of these warehouses large institutions?


John Douglas Hazen: The Atlantic Fisheries
warehouse is a large institution; it cost $200,000. The warehouse at Prince Rupert is also a very large one; it cost $350,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: Are all the cold storage warehouses which are aided by the Government in operation?


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that they are all in operation.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I would suggest that the minister consult with the officers of his department as to the desirability of giving a little larger subsidy to these warehouses, and as to imposing more restrictions compelling the owners to accept goods at fair rates. I am not finding fault with the local institution, but the warehouse at Woodstock, was, I think, too small in the first place. It was so small that the owners could not branch out, and could not invite the public to use it, because they occupied practically all the space themselves.


John Douglas Hazen: It received some aid from the local Government, I think?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, I mentioned that.
My view is that if the subsidies were made larger, and the conditions more stringent, we would get better results. In the Wood-

stock warehouse, if any one wanted to store say a certain quantity of meat, the owners would say: we are sorry, but all the space fit for that kind of storage is occupied. I think there ought to be some better regulations as regards the occupancy of the building, and also some better control of the rates than the department exercises at the present time. However, I heartily approve of the principle, and I hope the Government will establish more, warehouses. I am surprised, in view of the results of which I know personally, that more companies have not taken advantage of the Act.


Frank Oliver: Is the department satisfied that the cold storage system, as it is operated, has a tendency to improve prices in the case of the producer, and to decrease prices in the case of the consumer? That was the intention of the Government in aiding the establishment of cold storage warehouses, but there are people to-day who have grave doubts as to whether that result has been achieved. I would like to have the opinion of the department on that point.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think that the
officers of the department are willing to commit themselves on that point, but, from what I know about the subject, I think the establishment of these warehouses has increased prices to the producer, though I doubt whether they have reduced prices to the consumer. It may have equalized prices to some extent. In consequence of the' cold storage facilities, the producer is able to keep his products until the market is ready, and he is not forced to put them on the market in order to save them from destruction, as used to be the case, thereby causing a glut in the market and bringing the prices down. That of course, meant lower prices to the consumer.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: But there were times
when the consumer could not get the products at all.


John Douglas Hazen: On the whole I think the effect has been beneficial in the direction of equalizing prices, and certainly beneficial to the farmers and producers. Of course that is only a personal opinion.


Frank Oliver: This is a very important question, probably too important to discuss at this late hour, and I think it is one that might very well be considered carefully. There is the possibility that the owner of a cold storage establishment may use the stocks which he has on hand from the previous season, and which he is able to keep, to hammer down the prices of the producer at the time of greatest as well as of least

production, and at the same time withhold the goods from the consumer and increase the prices to him at the time of greatest production.
Under ordinary circumstances ,the consumer would get the benefit of a great production as, in other cases, the producer would get the benefit of a small production? My hon. friend has said that the tendency is to equalize prices. There are people who hold the impression that the equalization is an equalization entirely in favour of the owner, or patron, of the cold storage warehouse and not in favour of either the producer or the consumer.


John Douglas Hazen: As a rule the goods in the warehouse are the property of producers, pr people who send them there, and not the property of the owners of the warehouse.


Frank Oliver: That is quite true. I want to make the argument as 'short as possible. The people' of Canada have put money into these warehouses with the view of reaching a certain result. There are very grave doubts about their having reached the result desired. The theory being right, and the Government having invested the people's money in that theory, it is for the Government to see that the theory is carried into practice by some more stringent regulation and supervision than yet obtains and to compel these people who have been bonused and benefited at the cost of the country to fulfil the duties to the public that they are expected to fulfil.
Exhibitions, $100,000.


John Douglas Hazen: That is entirely for the exhibition at San Diego. Towards the close of the Panama-Pacific Exhibition at San Francisco, requests were made to the Canadian Exhibition Commissioner, as well as to the Minister of Agriculture, by the exhibition authorities to transfer the whole Canadian exhibit from San Francisco to San Diego for display during the year 1916, it having been decided to continue the California Exhibition for another year. This request was accompanied by an offer to pay the freight on the Canadian exhibit from San Francisco to San Diego and to give free electrical current, water and gas. As there was no other International Exhibition to be held in 1916 to which Canada could transfer her exhibits, and as it would cost nearly $50,000 to remove the Canadian exhibit from San Francisco to Ottawa for storage, it was decided, in view of the benefits that might reasonably be expected to result from the, presence at San Diego for a whole year of the Canadian exhibit which had attracted so much attention at San Francisco, to accept the offer of the San Diego authorities and this $100,000 is to cover whatever expenses there may be in connection with it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does the minister anticipate that he will require the whole $100,000?


John Douglas Hazen: It is hoped not, but the amount is made $100,000. There may be some other exhibition in the future for which some preparatory work will have to be done. It is not expected that the cost of the San Diego exhibition will run up to $100,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: It seems to me that it will be largely the same people who will see the exhibit at San Diego as those who saw it at San Francisco. In ordinary times I think that would have been a fairly good line of policy. There might be a considerable amount of good resulting from it, but just at the present time people are not coming from the United States to Canada to any large extent. While we are all economizing it would be a good chance for the Government to practise a little economy on its own account.


John Douglas Hazen: We would not economize very much, as it would cost about $50,000 to dismantle this exhibit and bring it back to Ottawa.


John Gillanders Turriff: It will cost that much at the end of the San Diego exhibition just the same.


John Douglas Hazen: But at the end of the exhibition there will be an exhibition somewhere else. I do not think that the same people who visited the exhibition at San Francisco would go to the San Diego exhibition. The people of the United States are very prosperous at the present time. Wealthy people who were in the habit of taking trips to Europe have been cut off from that and, a great many of them will avail themselves of this exhibition. It is probable that a good many people will see this exhibition and have the attractions of Canada drawn to their attention. It may not have an immediate effect, but the diffusion of knowledge about Canada must have a good effect in the future.


John Gillanders Turriff: It is close to Mexico, and those people will see it.

Health of animals, $570,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is a large item and
the Estimates for the present year are based on the expenditure of the past year. The Estimates are made up in this way: Salaries and fees, $200,000; travelling expenses, $140,000; general expenses, $15,000; printing and stationery, $5,000; dipping, $10,000. Then there is a laTge item paid each year for compensation for animals that are killed by authority of the veterinary inspectors as follows:	Glanders,	$35,000;
hog cholera, $100,000; dourine, $35,000; tuberculosis, $30,000. The amount that was spent under this item in 1915-16 was $348,287. The work of this division is limited to the control and reduction of contagious and infectious diseases governed by the Animals Contagious Diseases Act. Fortunately, the only diseases which have necessitated official action in this country are glanders, dourine, anthrax, hog cholera, mange, rabies, and tuberculosis. Any new work which this division has been called upon to perform has consisted of changes in the system of combatting diseases due to modem discoveries. Two-thirds of the cost is for animals that have been destroyed.


Frank Oliver: This shows an increase
of $30,000; what is the reason of that?


John Douglas Hazen: I am told that the increase has to do with work in connection with tuberculosis in cattle.


Frank Oliver: If I caught correctly the figures that the minister read, it would seem that this amount is very much larger than the expenditure last year.


John Douglas Hazen: It is $21,000 larger. The
amount actually spent in 1914-15 was $549,288.77. The amount of this item is $570,000. That would be an increase of about $20,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend from
Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) and my hon. friend from North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) could not very well be here to-night, they are very much interested in this matter and I think the minister might let it stand.
Item stands.
Domin'.on cattle quarantine buildings-repairs, renewals, etc., $15,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is simply for repairs to quarantine stations all over the country, of which there are a great many.
Department of Agriculture -Publication Branch, $20,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: Why the increase?
fMr. Turriff.]


John Douglas Hazen: The amount spent last year was $14,145, which came dangerously near the limit. This branch was organized in 1910. The increase is accounted for by the increased issue of the Agricultural Gazette, of which a great many more copies are now being requested. Expenses under this head also include filing cabinets, index cards, stationery, etc.
International Institute of Agriculture-to assist in maintenance thereof and to provide for representation thereat, $20,000.


John Douglas Hazen: It was explained to the House some years ago that practically all the nations of the world had agreed to the establishment at Rome of an agricultural institution, a sort of clearing house for the different nations of the world in agricultural matters. Every country connected with this is assessed $4,560 a year. Then $6,000 is allowed for the bulletin which is issued from time to time. Those are the principal items.


John Gillanders Turriff: Does the minister think it is worth the money?


John Douglas Hazen: Of course I have not studied this question, and cannot say. We entered into this in good faith, and I think we are bound to continue in it.
To enforce the Seed Act, to test seeds for farmers and seed merchants, to encourage the production and use of superior seeds, and to encourage the production of farm and garden crops, $150,000.


James Joseph Hughes: It is well known that there is a great shortage in the crop of potatoes in Canada, particularly in Prince Edward Island. In some cases the farmers will have difficulty in getting seed^ Under these circumstances, would it not be well for the Government to consider the advisability of suspending the duty upon potatoes? Potatoes are very dear at the present time, and will be dearer before the new potatoes are ready for use.


John Douglas Hazen: Does a duty of ten cents a bushel make much difference?


James Joseph Hughes: That is the duty on our potatoes going into the United States. We have to pay twenty-five cents a bushel duty. It will be difficult to obtain potatoes for any purpose in this country before the new potatoes are ready. The new potatoes in the United States will be ready for use a month or two earlier than ours, and I think the duty should be removed so that the people of this country can get potatoes from the United States. There are no pota-

toes for sale in the province from which I come.


John Douglas Hazen: Perhaps yo\i could get them from New Brunswick. There is also a fine crop of potatoes in Alberta this year. I understand that potatoes are scarce in New York state, so removing the duty might not help.


James Joseph Hughes: If we cannot get potatoes from the United States suspending the duty will do no harm. The suggestion is worth considering.


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that the Department of Agriculture has undertaken to inspect for the Government of Ontario
6,000	bushels of potatoes that are being brought from Alberta for seed purposes in Northern Ontario. I am told that the potato crop in Alberta is excellent, and that the potatoes are clean and absolutely free from disease of any sort.


James Joseph Hughes: I am afraid that coming from such a long distance tihe price will be pretty high.


John Douglas Hazen: They are very cheap.


Frank Oliver: I am willing to support the suggestion of, my hon. friend from Prince Edward, Island. We had an abundant crop of potatoes in Northern Alberta last year, but nevertheless I should like to see the suggestion of my hon. friend acted upon. I would also suggest to the minister the advisability of securing from the railways such a rate as would enable the surplus of potatoes in Alberta to reach the market in Eastern Canada. I think it is a matter of sufficient importance to claim the attention of the Government. We had a very abundant crop last summer in Alberta, so abundant that I am afraid that in some cases the potatoes were left in the ground as not worth taking up. And it may be that some have been lost in the very severe weather this winter. But even so, there is a large surplus and the price is low.


James Joseph Hughes: Will the hon. minister
take into consideration the suggestion of the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver).


John Douglas Hazen: That is a matter for the
Finance Minister. We will consider it, certainly.


James Joseph Hughes: Do something moreconsider it favourably.
National Biological Laboratory, $25,000.


John Douglas Hazen: That item has been in for many years. It never has been used.


John Gillanders Turriff: If we are going to practice economy, it seems to me this is a chance for it. I move that this item be struck out.


John Douglas Hazen: There is no extravagance
if the money is not spent. It was put in the Estimates a number of years ago when there was talk of establishing a health department, and it was intended to have a biological laboratory in connection with that department. I do not know whether the amount will be required this year. But it is hardly worth while striking out.


John Gillanders Turriff: I do not agree with the hon. minister. The fact that it has been there for a number of years is the reason why it should be struck out. If it is kept there somebody may find a way of expending the money.


John Douglas Hazen: I think it would be a very good thing.


John Gillanders Turriff: Then the Government
has been remiss for the last four years in not spending the money.


John Douglas Hazen: Both Governments have
been remiss; there is no doubt about that.
Amendment of Mr. Turriff negatived.
For tbe administration and carrying out of the provisions of the Agricultural Instruction Act, $25,000.


Frank Oliver: What is this for?


John Douglas Hazen: The Act referred to is the one under which $1,000,000 or more is distributed among the provinces. This is for expenses of administration.


William Frederic Kay: Would the minister mind
leaving this over? The hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) wishes to discuss it.


John Douglas Hazen: As hon. members know, I never object to the discussion of any matter relating to the department on any item before the committee. Still, if it is deemed more convenient to let this stand, I will accede to that request.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The hon. member for
Huntingdon asked that it should be allowed to stand. When it comes up, perhaps the minister will he able to explain how in the world he is going to spend $25,000.


John Gillanders Turriff: Does the department
charge a commission?


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman knows that there is a commissioner who administers this fund. I have all the items of this estimate before me, but there is no use taking up time with them now if the item is to be allowed to stand over.
Item stands.
Grant to Dominion Exhibition,. $50,000.


Frank Oliver: Who gets that this year?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think any plaice
is going to hold a Dominion exhibition under present circumstances. The last Dominion exhibition was held in Brandon in 1913. Victoria had the grant in 1914, but war broke out on the 4th of August, and they decided to abandon the exhibition. They had incurred certain expenses and were paid $24,166.


John Gillanders Turriff: I move that the item be struck out.
Amendment negatived.


John Douglas Hazen: There are three or four
items of quarantine still to be voted. There is nothing contentious about them. I have all the information about them, and I think they might be passed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You are spending a
quarter of a million dollars for quarantine under the Department of Agriculture?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, that is about what we have been voting for a number of years. Last year these items amounted to $18,089. They vary little year by year.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This brings up the whole question of immigration.


John Douglas Hazen: No, the Department of
Agriculture does not inspect the immigrants. This relates to the passengers coming in the ordinary ships. The quarantining of immigrants is carried on, as I understand it, by the Department of the Interior which has jurisdiction over immigration.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Better allow this to stand.


John Douglas Hazen: I have all the information here that hon. gentlemen are likely to want.


Frank Oliver: Perhaps the minister would allow the first item relating to salaries, etc., to stand and pass the other two. There will be no contention about that.
Quarantine-Public Works Health Act,


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is this about?


John Douglas Hazen: The Public Works Health Act is a law intended to maintain sanitary conditions to protect the health of the people engaged on public works.
Progress reported.
On the motion of Mr. Hazen, the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.
Monday, March 6, 1916.