1916-05-06

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. PARDEE:: Were any advances made by the Shell Committee to any persons or firms in Canada, to enable them to start manufacturing either shells or fuses? If so, what persons or firms?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: The Government have no information with regard to the matter mentioned in this question.


DR. A. MACKENZIE FORBES.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	What rank in the militia of Canada does Dr. A. Mackenzie Forbes, of Montreal, hold?
2.	What are his duties and his remuneration?
3.	What services did he perform overseas, if any?
4.	What were the circumstances under which he returned to Canada, what representations were made to the Militia Department to that end, and by whom?
5.	Is it the intention of the Department of Militia to again utilize his services overseas?
6.	What allowance, if any, is being made to his family, wife and children, respectively?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	Lieut.-Colonel in the Canadian Army Medical Corps.
2.	The officer is employed as medical officer in charge of troops, Montreal General Hospital, while he is in Canada, and is to be employed on special surgical duties, particularly in regard to orthopedic cases which may be inmates of convalescent homes. Regimental pay, $4; field pay, $1; subsistence allowance, $1.50.
3.	The services of his office.
4.	Returned for service in Canada.
5.	The Militia Department will be only too glad, at any time, to utilize the services of this officer in the field.
6.	Separation allowance, $50 per month to his wife.


WAR SUPPLIES-HORSES, HAY AND OATS.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Who were the men engaged under Lt.-Col. A. D. McRae to purchase horses, hay and oats for the Militia Department in the province of Alberta?
2.	What remuneration did they receive?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	For horses:
Purchasers:	Capt. J. J. Fry, Mr. L. S.
Manzer, Mr. Bernard Michell, Mr. P. G. Pilkie, Mr. E. J. Legg, Mr. W. R. Lowes, Mr. R. F. Bevan.
Veterinary inspectors:	Dr. J. C. Smith,
Dr. Robt. Blyth, Dr. F. A. McEwan, Dr. E. G. Cunningham, Dr. P. K. Walters.
No appointment was made for the purchase of hay'and oats in Alberta.
2.	Each of the above gentlemen received $10 per diem and actual expenses.

35B9


FREIGHT EXPORTED THROUGH ST JOHN.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How many tons of freight were exported through the port of St. John during the calendar year 1915, to the British islands, the British possessions, and to foreign countries respectively?
2.	What axe the corresponding figures concerning the imports through said port?


Mr. REID:: No information is obtainable for the calendar year 1915. According to shipping returns to Customs, the figures for the fiscal year ended 31st March, 1916, are as follows:
Tons	Tons
Weight. Measurement.
Vessels arrived-
Great Britain			49,555
British possessions. .	. . 60,130	19,457Other countries . . .	. . 98,622	10,725'essels departed- Great Britain	185,451British possessions. .	.. 25,161	35,677Other countries . . .	.. 345,155	165,954


PROPOSED FOREST RESERVE IN SPIRIT RIVER DISTRICT.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. OLIVER:: The Minister of the Interior is not here, but I desire to ask for information, and no doubt the minister will be good enough to give it later. I have received a somewhat lengthy night lettergram from the secretary of the Spirit River Board of Trade protesting against the prospective setting apart of a forest reserve in that vicinity, and asserting on what is claimed to be good authority that at least 50 per cent of the land is clear, the soil good, good water available, and the balance of the land very light scrub. It is said that several whole sections can be ploughed without any previous preparation and that there is no muskeg. The land is in township 79-81, ranges 7-11 inclusive. I shall be glad if the hon. minister will say whether or not it is the intention to establish a forest reserve in that section of the country.


HOMESTEAD ENTRIES BY VOLUNTEERS.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Frank Oliver: During the consideration of the Orders in Council of the Department of the Interior that took place in the House some days ago, in discussing a certain order regarding homestead entry by volunteers, the Minister of the Interior spoke as follows:
With regard to the protection of the homesteading rights of those who have enlisted, I think the hon. gentleman has probably misinterpreted the Order in Council. He states that we are giving practically the same protection to the soldier who has made his homestead entry after enlistment as we are giving to the man who was the owner of a homestead prior to enlistment. But there is a difference in our treatment of these two men. The man who had a homestead prior to enlistment has not only protection in so far as not allowing cancellation proceedings to be instituted, but he is also allowed to count as time of residence on his homestead the time that he is serving his country at the front. In the case of the volunteer who makes a homestead entry after enlistment, he is not allowed to count his time but he is protected from cancellation.
I find in the Manitoba Free Press of May 3, under the heading "Homestead for Every Soldier," an article which copies an announcement said to have been made by the Department of Militia with regard to this particular matter. The Militia Department apparently holds an entirely different view from that held by the Minister of the Interior, and it is this difference of view that I desire to bring to the attention of the House with a view to having the two divergent views harmonized; otherwise there will be misunderstanding and unfortunate consequences. I shall not read the whole article, but the important part is as follows:
The scope of the Act in the foregoing particulars has been enlarged to embrace volunteers who may, subsequent to the date of enlistment, enter for a homestead of Dominion lands. By the operation of the new regulation the Minister of the Interior is empowered to consider the latter class of soldier settlers in the same way as the Act provides for the bona fide settler, who, on the outbreak of hostilities, enlisted for active service.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: Who makes the statement?


Frank Oliver: The newspaper credits it to new regulations of the Militia Department. I will read what it says:
The new regulations affecting this matter are contained in Militia orders issued at Ottawa.
I think ,it is very desirable that the House should be informed as to the divergent views expressed, and, whatever is the intention, certainly it should be understood distinctly from the beginning.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not able *to give' my hon. friend any information at the moment, in the absence of the Minister of the Interior. It is my recollection that more than one Order in Council has been passed on the subject. Possibly the misunderstanding has arisen from an oversight

on the part of one or the other of these departments with regard to amendments which may have been made.


WAR LOAN-$250,000,000.
[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Acting Minister of Militia and Defence) moved the second reading of Bill No. 97, for granting to His Majesty aid for Military and Naval Defence.
Mr. ROCH LANCTOT:: (Laprairie-Napier-ville) (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, before the motion carries, I wish once more to record a protest against this mad policy, which is bound to bring ruin to the country. True it is that I stand alone in this House in the position I am taking, but I count more sympathizers outside this House than within its precincts, and I shall name one of them especially: he is Baron Shaugh-nessy. At a meeting of the manufacturers of the Montreal district, held only a few months ago at the Montread Board of Trade, speaking in the presence of General Sir Sam Hughes, the Baron stated that the Government ought, without delay, to put a stop to recruiting, because, he said, we already have 135,000 men under arms, and it will take twelve to fifteen months before those soldiers are sent overseas. He said, furthermore, that in discontinuing now such recruiting campaigns a monthly expenditure of five to six millions would be saved to Canada. He predicted that the economical situation would become more and more tense; that this country will soon have no more hands to till the land. In proof of his argument, he stated, in the presence of the Minister of Militia that the western farmers hfid called upon him to bring them, if possible, 10,000 men for sowing time.
During the last twenty-one months, Mr. Speaker, the Government has sent overseas -I mean to France and Belgium-65,000 solldiers. More than 70,000 are in training camps in England, while the rest are being trained in Canadian camps. If the Government continues the methods they have followed to this day for sending soldiers overseas, and if they insist on carrying through a levy of 500,000 troops, I find, by an easy computation, that it will take them over ten years to carry 500,000 men to the front.
I fail to see, taking the situation such as it is, why the Government should drag the people of this country into bankruptcy against its wish by persevering in a policy of unnecessary enlistment. So far as I am 
concerned, any discussion on this subject would be wasted time; to me the question is as clear as crystal. If it has been possible for France to hold more than 400 miles of trenches with her 39 millions of inhabitants, I wish to know how it is that England, with a greater interest than ours in this war, cannot take care of more than 40 miles of trenches, when her population is 49 millions.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: (Translation.) With my hon. friend's leave, I wish to state that the British army is now taking care, not of 35 to 40 miles of trenches, but of a good deal over 100 miles. My hon. friend is mistaken, because the British line now extends over 100 miles.


Roch Lanctôt: (Translation.) The minister who has just interrupted me has his own source of information, which I feel not like questioning; but I have my own information, and I hope he will not question it either.
But I must say that only lately the British army extended over only 35 miles, and they have now taken care of five more' miles. I do not care to name the gentleman who has given me this information, because he had no authority to do so. But granted that the British line had 100 miles of trenches to defend, if only one-tenth of the truth has been given out by newspapers since the beginning of this war, when they stated that Britain had from three to four millions of soldiers undier arms, I fail to see where they have been sent. If little France, with its population of 39 millions, as I have stated, could take charge of 400 miles of trenches, Britain, with the help of its dominions, such as Australia, Canada and New' Zealand, should at least be able to take care of her 100 miles of trenches', which is stated by the Postmaster General as the extent of her line, although I beg to differ with him on that score, as I claim it is at the utmost 40 miles. But in any case that is not the point I wish ,to make.
The other day, in this House, the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) stated that we should not let our thoughts, wander from the war. It seems as if his mind was filled with the idea and he will not speak of anything else. The hon. member might take a trip overseas and get a line on what is being done in England. He then could give good advice to our British friends, who have more dissensions to contend with than

[DOT]we have, and he might show them how to carry on their business better than it is carried on to-day.
I wish to quote, as agreeing with what I have to say, the words of the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) who spoke in this House in the afternoon of the 22nd of February last, while I spoke that same evening. He was congratulating the right hon. the leader of the Opposition and the Liberal party for refraining from any party politics in Canada, while he stated the practice was current in Britain. If the hon. . member for Red Deer is horrified at what is taking place in this House, I should advise him, as he has been in Canada only a few years from the Old Country, to take a trip to Britain to find out what is going on and endeavour to suggest to the British Government some means of recruiting soldiers to light in the trenches of France and Belgium.
Since the outbreak of the war we have been following in the footsteps of the old countries of Europe, of countries which have accumulated wealth for ages, while the truth is that we are mere beggars compared with European nations. Every dollar required to foot our war bill we have to borrow, while Britain has money loaned in all parts of the world. But we, the scions of Britain, in our need, we are going to borrow this year $300,000,000 to 400,000,000 to carry on the war and cover the deficit in our ordinary and special expenditures.
What is our daily war expenditure in Canada? Only a few weeks ago the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) enquired from the Minister of Finance what we were spending monthly for war purposes. The reply was that the expenses reached from ten to eleven millions, or $300,000 to $400,000 per day.
Now, referring to the Canada Gazette of the 15th of April last, I find that the expenditure for March totals more than twice the amount stated in this House by the Minister o'f Finance. For that one month it reached over $25,000,000. So that if we keep on spending as lavishly and recruiting day after day, as has been done since the opening of hostilities, of course we must expect the expenses to keep on the increase.
At that rate, according to my computation, the war expenses for the year will total $300,000,000.
But, Mr. Speaker, our obligations after the war are not confined to those figures. The Minister of Finance has stated that after the war we shall have to make adjustments for ammunition, supplies and
clothing; well, what about our share of the cost? Will it be $100,000,000 or $200,000,000? I cannot tell. But, Mr. Speaker, if we are to judge from the prices paid for shells and fuses, articles that come high both in Canada and in the United States, when this Government is the purchaser, it must be admitted that our share of the expenses will be large. Furthermore, the time will come when we shall have to provide for many other things in Canada, such as our railways for instance, for which even at this session we have been asked to provide.
I forgot to state that the expenditure for the country's management, only the ordinary and special accounts, will reach $217,000,000; the war account will total up to $300,000,000, or an aggregate expenditure of 517 millions for a population of 7) millions of people and a revenue of $170,000,000. There will at that rate be a deficit in the expense account of $330,000,000 over revenue, or $65 to $70 per unit of population.
Yet the press will go on clamouring that our duty is to run to the rescue of the Empire. I am fully disposed, indeed, to save the Empire, I have no objection whatever to run to her rescue, but the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) ought not to be taken at his word when he advised last year the people of Manitoba to drive the country into bankruptcy against the wish of its citizens; yet I think this Government has followed very closely the Solicitor General's advice. However, Mr. Speaker, when you see that the people are thus badly misinformed, when public opinion is perverted by the public press here as well as in England and all over, the day is coming when a reaction will set in, and the same people who have been shamefully deceived by the politicians of 1915, 1916 and 1917, will wreak a terrible vengeance on its deceivers. [DOT]
As a member of' this House, I want to keep my electors posted on what is going on here and in that connection I must say that over in England there is a man I admire more than all other public men of Britain or of any country in the world. I mean Llovd-George who again and again in the British Commons, has disclosed what Great Britain has done and what she has failed to do. I admit in passing that the British navy has done a great deal; but, as stated by Lloyd-George, it must be conceded that Great Britain has scarcely done anything on land. . In a notable speech in the

House of Commons, the British minister inquired of his colleagues what part the British had taken in the struggle? France, said he, has been fighting for the past 18 months against one half of the German host. Russia with practically no arms and no munitions has held her own against the other half of the German enemy, against the whole Austrian army, the Bulgarians and the Turks. And what have we done? Nothing. Such are his very words.
Those are the words of a statesman. A statesman should always tell his people the truth. Why, in this country should we not tell the people that the policy which has been adopted by this Parliament will be disastrous, and can be carried out only by increased taxation on revenue and property. What good purpose is served by the newspapers spreading the hope of better times, after the war? Who can claim that now, when we know that after the war our purchasing power will be cut down by a million and a half per day so as to keep our soldiers in the cities, what doing? I would rather not speak of it in this House. I am really shocked when I see what is going on here and in Montreal. A large number of these young men go from one saloon to another and get drunk. It is perfectly well known that the training the soldiers get here is of no value whatever to them, that when they get to England, they have to go through their training all over again. If such be the case, why keep on recruiting? Why should these young men from the country be kept in the cities and get the habit of drink and immorality. I say it is high time to put a stop to that. If in six or twelve months, the soldiers that have already enlisted must be sent overseas; if it is hoped that by shipping to the front the few thousand soldiers which are being trained, the Empire will be saved, so much the better; it ought to be done and I shall not object. [DOT] But there is as yet no evidence that your idea is the Empire's safety. Why do you not acknowledge, as men should do who speak their minds, that your purpose in recruiting is to promote jingoism pure and simple.
In my constituency, I tell you that not five per cent of the people approve of your present policy. Then go into the rural districts throughout the country and you will realize that your system of enlistment is not in the least favoured by the nation at large. I must state to the House that I am now speaking for myself only, and that when anybody rises to speak on this ques-

tion on behalf of the Liberal party, he does not express my opinion. My position in this matter is my own.
I do not wish to delay the House. As I have stated, the Government will have to take over the railways. The Canadian Northern has an indebtedness of $420,000,000, besides loans in practically all the banks of the country. We must also operate the National Transcontinental, which will increase out burden by $700,000,000. The public debt, in round numbers, is to-day $920,000,000, and with the expected deficit of $300,000,000 by the 3tst of March, 1917, it will reach $2,000,000,000. And to what purpose? What have we to show for that inordinate expenditure, over which the people have no control? Absolutely nothing. We have sent our soldiers into the trenches to have them butchered, while at the beginning of the waT we could not provide them -with rifles and ammunition. Why keep to that policy? Within the current year we shall have to pay $100,000,000 in interest. Furthermore, we shall have to provide pensions for the invalids, the widows and the orphans, likely amounting to $30,000,000 or $40,000,000. We shall also have to provide for the different commissions which this Government is creating every day out of a revenue which will decrease after the war by several millions on account of the lowering of the country's purchasing power, as I explained a while ago.
I say, then, that conditions after the war will not be as rosy in this country as editors would have us believe.
I stated already that, in so far as I was concerned, I want to put these facts and the true situation, as I understand it, before the people of this country, and more especially of my county. My purpose is not to court popularity; I do it from a sense of duty, prompted by my conscience, because the people have been misinformed, and because the politicians who owe their election to their stand against all military expenditure, against the naval proposals, and against all contributions to Imperial defence, ought to have joined me in my protest in this House when I say to the Government: If you want to go into such follies first get the people's assent to them.
Mr. Speaker, as I have alluded to the navy and to dreadnoughts, I will say that I have often listened to the right hon. Prime Minister as he spoke to us of dreadnoughts and of the Senate's refusal-the naughty Senate-to vote for the famous

Bill to contribute three dreadnoughts to the Imperial defence. Much was said of the German menace. But the Prime Minister went to Great Britain; why, then, did he not warn the British Government of how imminent was the German menace and not urge them to increased preparedness?
If Great Britain was not ready when the war broke out, why should Canada have been in greater readiness? One must use his common sense.
I congratulate the Senate for having saved to the country the cost at least of the three dreadnoughts. Since the English fleet is keeping the German fleet bottled up, of what advantage would it be for Great Britain to have three more dreadnoughts in the North sea, or elsewhere?
Mr. Speaker, I shall not take up the time of the House any further. I have already discussed the question, and I shall do so every time it comes before the House in the same spirit as I speak of it at home. I intend objecting as strongly as I know how against that disastrous policy, and if anyone saw fit to bring in an amendment to reduce that amount by 100 millions I should vote for it.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon.
On section 6-charged to Consolidated Revenue Fund:


Mr. TURRIFF:: Is it open to discuss war matters at this stage?


Robert Laird Borden: Certainly, my
hon. friend can discuss anything he thinks desirable.


John Gillanders Turriff: There is one point I
would like to bring up. The country is spending a lot of money on training young officers, and I saw it stated the other day by a colonel in charge of a regiment in the West, I think, that there were enough young officers now training, to whom the Government had not been able to give positions, to man at least two battalions. That would mean 2,000 men who had qualified for commissions, but to whom there were no commissions to give. The acting minister stated last night, I think, that,, as far as possible, it was the intention, and I think rightly, in granting commissions in future to give them to men who had served at the front and in the ranks. It would seem to me that something ought to be done either to stop the expenditure in training young officers, when we have so
many that we cannot use, or to see that the services of those young officers are utilized. The Government have expended a considerable amount of money on training officers, and if it be true that there are at least 2,000 of them who cannot be used, something should be done. If they cannot be used as officers, why can they not go to the front as privates or a3 non-commissioned officers? I know numbers of them have been qualified for over a year, and have been waiting to go to the front, but they have not gone, and apparently are not going. It looks to me a3 if many of those officers did not want to go as privates, and so the country is going to lose their services altogether. I do not suppose that it is altogether their fault. It is quite natural that a young man should want to go a3 an officer if he can secure a position, but if there are no positions to give, something ought to be done, either to shut off the expense of training more officers, or to see that those who have qualified give their services to the country in some capacity.


Robert Laird Borden: T do not think that the spirit which my hon. friend seems to have found is one that prevails to any extent. On the contrary, it has been the experience of the Department of Militia and Defence that men have been willing to waive their rank and go to the front in a lower rank. [DOT]


John Gillanders Turriff: In some cases, yes.


Robert Laird Borden: More than that, there have been many cases where men holding commissions and rank in the Militia have put them to one side and gone to the front as privates; so that any such aspersion as my hon. friend seems to be inclined to pass upon the young men of the country is altogether unfounded and unwarranted. The experience of the department is that any young man who desires to take a course as an officer will certainly not be the worse for that if he does go to the front. Further than that, the regulations of the de-' partment are that in all the training schools throughout Canada the men who shall have precedence are the men who have first volunteered for service overseas. The Canadian force of 300,000 requires, I think, about 10,000 officers. These young men are being trained in schools which are kept up for that purpose, and up to the .present we have not found any detrimental results from keeping these schools open. The deputy minister informs me that while the young men are training in these schools,



they receive only the remuneration of ordinary privates.


John Gillanders Turriff: I do not think that the Prime Minister is justified in the tone of criticism which he has adopted towards me for bringing up this matter. I got the information from one of his own officers, and it was published broadcast throughout the country that thete were over 2,000 of those men who could not 'be used as; officers. I do not see any harm in pointing out a matter like that to the department. If this officer has not given proper information to the country, that is not my fault.


Mr. MARCIL:: I have already had an
opportunity during the present session of' putting a question to the Prime Minister regarding recruiting. Canadians generally are very anxious' to give to the Emipre all the assistance possible in this great war, but when the announcement was made by the Prime Minister that 500,000 men would be recruited, compulsory service had not been adopted in England. Now that the conditions in England have changed, I would ask whether he thinks it will be necessary to go to the full extent of recruiting 500,000 Canadians. We have been told by some very reliable authorities that this could only be done by seriously affecting the economic services of the country, and we can all realize, with our limited population, what 500,000 men leaving the country would mean. With the conditions now changed in England, and, in view of the new legislation adopted there, does the right hon. gentleman think it would be still necessary to recruit 500,000 Canadians?


Robert Laird Borden: What my hon. friend suggests, I understand, is that because Great Britain is proposing to do more, we ought to take into consideration the desirability of doing less than we at first proposed. We have not taken that into consideration, and we do not intend to depart from the announcement that was made on the first day of January.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Post Office-to pay railway mail clerks for extra services at the ports of Quebec and Halifax in checking incoming British mails, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act, $372.64.
['I believe it is the desire of members on both sides of the House that we should not sit this evening.\nSeveral hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.\nOn motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House adjourned at 6 p.m.\nMonday, May 8, 1916.']
Mr. LEMIEUX:: What does this comprise?
Mr. CASGRAI^J: This item has been in the Estimates for some years past, and is to provide for the payment of amounts varying , from $1.38 to $10, to about thirty post office employees for extra services in connection with the handling of the mails at Rimouaki and Halifax. These men are out in *all' kinds of weather, and it is thought only fair to give them this extra small remuneration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In the summer, when the steamers arrive at Rimouski, does the department still send the mails out by train concurrently both east and west?
Mr. CA8GRAIN: I believe that is so, but I am not quite sure. I will let my hon. friend know on Monday.


Charles Marcil: My s Hentign has been called to the possibilit';' of a change being made by the departmi nt in the design of the three-cent stamp. It is very difficult for any one, especially a short-sighted person, to distinguish between the two and the three-cent stamp. The three-cent stamp looks just the same as the two except for a mark on it increasing the value of the stamp by one cent. The bank teller where I do my little business, tells me that the majority of his customers put a three-cent stamp on a cheque when, of course, only a two-eent stamp is required; which shows that it is not easy to distinguish between the two. Has the minister considered the advisability of having the three-cent stamp of a different colour?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: This matter has received the attention of the department, and we have instructed the contractor to make the stamp of another colour.
Post Office-to provide for the payment of one year's salary to the widow of John Lina-hen, railway mail clerk, Montreal district, who died on the 22nd March, 1914, from pneumonia, which he contracted while on duty, $800.


Sir WTLFRID LAURIER:: What is the explanation of this?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: On the 23rd of February, 1914, John Linahen was asked to go out on a special postal car with a large quantity of mail matter that had been left over at BonaventuTe station, Montreal, on account of a storm. The deor of this car would not close on account of the ice, and Linahen protested against the state of the car, but finally consented to go. He caught

a chill while on the car and contracted pneumonia, of which he died a short time afterwards. As he had contracted this while on duty the department thought it only right to grant a compassionate allowance to his widow.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not object to his widow receiving a compassionate allowance, but I think my hon. friend, who is a good lawyer, will agree with me that an action could be brought against the company. The railway company provides the mail cars, and has to keep them heated and in a proper condition. As a lawyer, who was in practice some years ago, I would venture the opinion very modestly that the widow has a claim against the company, but not against the department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Strictly speaking, that may be so. A case similar to this occurred last year. This is what the officers of the
department say on Linahenfs case:
There was no heat in this car. The doors could not he closed on account of ice on the floor. The steam coils were inoperative on account of the cold, and it was three or four hours after the train started before it was possible to get the door closed.
It may be true that technically the widow has a claim against the railway company, _ but I doubt very much whether she would be able to recover, or whether it would pay the Government to take action against the company. There was no faijlt on the man's part, and I think we are only doing what is right in granting his widow this allowance.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is no objection at all to the allowance being granted, for the case seems to be a deserving one. But I see in these Estimates half a dozen, if not a full dozen, oases of a similar nature. All these may be meritorious, but I never saw the Estimates so loaded up as they are this year with items of this character. Is there any rule followed by the Government as to granting gratuities? The country is, of course, disposed to deal generously with public servants who lose their health or their life in the service, but there ought to be some rule in cases of this kind, and I would particularly call the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to this matter, because he was very severe on this point in times gone by.


Robert Laird Borden: My right hon. friend will remember that many of these items are items which we thought it only
22.31
proper to include in the Estimates by reason of some of our public servants having lost their lives in the fire at the Parliament buildings. The Government gave very careful consideration to these cases, and on the whole we thought that the slight measure of assistance to their families which we proposed would commend itself not only to the members of the House, but to the country.


Wilfrid Laurier: vinces, s-ome principle might be- arrived at upon which the Government could work.
I quite agree that we should act, not arbitrarily, but upon some principle, and I understand the Minister of Justice will make a report as to what may be gathered from the various provincial Compensation Acts, which would be of assistance to us in that way. The difficulty I think has been that those Compensation Acts differ rather widely from each other in their provisions, and it has not been the easiest task to arrive at a working principle which could be made applicable in all cases. For example, if we adopt the scale fixed in one province, we might find that somewhat in excess of or very much less than the scale adopted in another province. The question has . been whether we should apply in each province the provisions of the Compensation A.ct of that province, should there be such an Act, or whether we should work out from all the Acts some fair scale which could be applied in all cases.


Wilfrid Laurier: Perhaps the
Minister of Justice has something to say upon the subject.


Mr. DOHERTY:: I do not know that I can say much more than has been said by the Prime Minister. I first approached the question rather with the idea of applying in each province to our employees the Compensation Act of that province; but as the Prime Minister has pointed out, we found that that would produce the result that, as our employees are scattered throughout the Dominion and as the accidents that might happen to them resulting in death or in injury, would happen under very similar circumstances, if a man happened to be in one province, we would be paying him less than if he happened to be in another province. What calls for some consideration is whether we should select the system used in some one province and make it for our purposes generally applicable, or whether we should make something of a compromise of the different rules laid down in the various provinces and make that apply generally to our employees who may suffer injury or death in the performance of their duties, so that they will find themselves in the same position towards the Government as that in which an ordinary employee finds himself towards his employer under a General Compensation Act. I think the proper course would be for us to adopt a system of our own, selecting the most commendable features of 
the different Acts, and then we would be in a position to treat all our employees in all parts of the Dominion upon the same basis.
Sir WILFRID ^LAURIER: I repeat that the matter should be dealt with systematically, and the system ought to be that any servant of the Government who meets injury or death in the performance of his duty is entitled to compensation. The rate of compensation should be according to his salary. That is the Tule adopted generally, and, I think, if adopted by the Government, it would meet the requirements of the case. We must have a system of our ora, and the Minister of Justice, by comparing the different systems, can come to some decision. Instead of these different payments being placed in the Supplementary Estimates, if they are to be made at all, they ought to be made under a well understood system.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have something to
say about other gratuities, but I shall wait until we xeach the Supplementary Estimates.


Mr. KNOWLES:: It is true that the different provinces have Compensation Acts by which they allot to those who are injured varying amounts according to degree of injury. Inasmuch as this is a matter within the control of the provinces, I think the proper course would be to deal with each case under the Compensation Act of the province in which the accident occurred. It is true that you have the anomaly that a man who suffered injury or death would secure more for himself in case of injury and for his wife and children in case of death if he happened to be in one province than in another, but such things are bound to occur. The railways operate in the different provinces and they settle the claims that arise in each province according to the rules laid down by the legislature of that province, and I do not think any one considers that to be an anomaly or that that system should be done away with. Inasmuch as the matter is one of provincial concern, and a matter in which the province settles the quantum in respect of all the circumstances in the province in which the injured party lives, it may be right that the system should be a varying one. Perhaps in British Columbia a larger sum might be art equitable and just settlement that in one of the eastern provinces where living is much cheaper. I do not

think he blanket rate would be the best one. The Minister of Trade and Commerce can bear me out that some months ago I presented this view to him in a friendly way, in the same way as I am making these remarks now, and he has been good enough 1 to give the matter consideration, although no decision has yet been arrived at. The matter concerned the employees, in our government grain elevators, in which men in my own town have been injured; and one at least killed. If they are working for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, or the Ogilvie Elevator Company, or any of the other elevator companies, they get compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Surely, none of us who are voting the public money would wish our employees to be treated less generously than the employees of those companies, and it seems that the most simple and just way would be to extend the Exchequer Court Act to give the judge of that court power to deal with the matter, and if he thinks fit, to take cognizance of the Workmen's Compensation Act of the province in which the matter arises. Whether or not the Exchequer Court Act would have to be amended would be for the Minister of Justice to decide. If a province has not a Compensation Act, that is its own business, because it has its provincial rights and is supreme in that sphere. Just as the Canadian Pacific Railway Company is a business concern and conducts its business throughout the various provinces, complying with the legislation in the respective provinces as such legislation affects its business, so this Dominion Government should act, and I would be pleased if some such arrangement could be arrived at in the near future.
Militia and Defence-Dominion arsenal, $100,000.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) made inquiry as to punishment administered to certain privates of the 128th overseas, battalion. As the hon. member was not here yesterday, I might repeat what I said with regard to the administration of field punishment No. 1:
Although there is nothing in our Canadian regulations dealing with the subject matter, the British regulations entitled " Manual of Military Daw" page 721, deals with field punishment. Sub-paragraph (d) of paragraph (a) reads:	''When in irons a soldier may be
attached for a period or periods not exceeding two hours of any one day to a fixed object, but he must not be so attached during more
than three of any four consecutive days, nor during more than twenty-one days in all."
The memorandum which I have before me continues:
Our officers commanding have applied this regulation notwithstanding the fact that it is no more applied in the British army. They have done it through ignorance and over zeal. The Adjutant General has given instructions that all kinds of field punishment, excepting detention, are not to be applied for the future.
It is therefore hoped that there will be no further recurrence of incidents of this kind. So far as the particular case is concerned, the Teport that .we have, after investigation by the Provost-Marshal, is as follows. It comes from the District Officer commanding military district No. 1:
Reference Adjutant-General's wire 27th instant and further reference my reply same date are field punishment being administered by O.C. 128th Overseas Battalion. Case has been investigated by Provost-Marshall who reports that Privates Anderson and Graham whilst undergoing detention were given field punishment No. 1 for a period of approximately fifty minutes at the expiration of which time medical officer reported no bad effects. The Provost-Marshall's investigation also brought out the fact that Rieut.-Colonel Hawlett has administered on different occasions field punishment in a mild form. Full explanation was however made to him with reference to this form of punishment and instructions given him that it was to be discontinued at once and that in future he was to award detention instead. From the Provost-Marshall's investigation it would seem that aggravated cases only were dealt with in this manner. Please advise me if you wish any further action in this connection.


William Erskine Knowles: I am very thankful to the Prime Minister for having had thie matter looked into. I am quite sure he would be even more opposed to cruelty to any soldier than I would.. We have had the matter cleared up so that there will be no shadow over the regiment on thie account, and this form of punishment will be stopped. Therefore the purpose of the inquiry has been attained. The Prime Minister spoke of only two soldiers, but the names of three were given. I suppose that is not worth bothering very much about.


Robert Laird Borden: Only two are mentioned, but as other cases are alluded to I imagine that all have been considered.


William Erskine Knowles: I assume so. I should like to know where these boys are now. I am told that pending this investigation two of them were taken out of Moosejaw and put into the Regina 68th, then on the eve of departure, and that they are now across the ocean. If that is correct, of course their evidence could not have been taken.


Robert Laird Borden: I really have * no information on that point, hut I will make inquiry.


William Erskine Knowles: I do not ask for that. I trust the regiment in Mooeejaw will be even more successful than it has been and that the bringing of this matter before Parliament in this way will .have a good effect. I understand that these are the only cases in Canada in which an officer has administered this punishment.


Robert Laird Borden: No. I explained that there was a case in Trenton, N.S., where the same punishment was administered. An investigation was held, and the same direction was given to the commanding officer. Indeed, .the directions have been made general to all commanding officers in Canada, that this form of punishment shall not be administered in the future. I entirely agree with the Adjutant General that these instructions should be issued. It will be the duty of the proper officer of the Militia Department to see that these instructions are carried out.


William Erskine Knowles: In this field punishment No. 1, are the arms suspended above the head?


Robert Laird Borden: It is expressed in general terms in what I read a moment ago:	_
When in irons a soldier may be attached for a period or periods not exceeding two hours of any one day to a fixed object, but he must not be so attached during more than three of any four consecutive days, nor during more than twenty-one days In all.
My hon. friend will find in Hansard of yesterday an account of the punishment administered to a soldier in Trenton. His feet rested on the ground but his hands were attached to an object above his head. He remained in that position for an hour. There were no ill physical effects except that, as he stated himself, his arms felt quite tired. There is no particular description in the report of the officer commanding military district No. 10, but only the general reference to field punishment which I have read.


William Erskine Knowles: The rumour which I reported to the Prime Minister to the effect that the man had fainted 'is neither confirmed nor denied?


Robert Laird Borden: That rumour would hardly be consistent with the report of the officer, to the effect that these soldiers were given this punishment for

a period of approximately fifty minutes, at the end of which time the medical officer reported no bad effects.


Charles Marcil: Are any other punishments provided for offences on the part of Canadian soldiers?
Sir ROBtERT BORDEN: The order given out is that they shall be punished by detention, but not in any other way.
I desire to make answer to a question asked of me by the hon. member for Regina <Mr. W. M. Martin) with reference to the case of Private Darrach of the 68th overseas battalion, who was in the hospital and who died, and the members of whose family were not present in time to see him before his death. The report which I have from the AdjutantjGeneral, which is addressed to the deputy minister, is as follows:
With reference to your minute of the 2nd 'instant, attached herewith, it is pointed out that a report was called for some time ago regarding this matter.
On April 4, the Officer Commanding Military District No. 10 forwarded a copy of a letter from the Grey Nuns' Hospital, Regina, which states in part:
" X must admit that there was a complaint from the parents of Private Darrach. But when the .patient arrived at the hospital hiis condition was that of an ordinary influenza case, his temperature being 101 degrees raising to 104 degrees, and again coming down to the same point, with no other complications. The next morning his condition changed for the worse, shortly before his death, hardly giving us time to notify the doctor and the family, these taking a whole hour before reaching the hospital. In this case we understand that the parents must have felt very much grieved, and this excited them to lay the said complaint; but any one who saw the patient and ourselves were just as astonished at the sudden turn, which could not have been prevented."
The description of this man's illness and death as taken from the official medical board, held on January 29 last, at Regina, substantiates the report from the hospital as to the fact that this man's death was very sudden, and that up to the hour before his death he was not considered to be seriously ill. The report is as follows:
" That he was taken sick on January 24, 1916, and was given usual treatment for La Grippe.
That condition did not improve and he was admitted to barracks hospital at 4 p.m. Tuesday, January 25, 1916, and was seen by Captain Morrison about 6.30 p.m., when he was detained in hospital and treatment continued.
That on January 26, 1916, at the hour of 9.30 he was examined by Captain Coles and treatment continued; temperature, a.m., 101-5.
Temperature p.m., 102-6. As his condition remained unimproved on this evening he was removed to Grey Nuns' Hospital at 7 p.m. After being placed in bed it was found that his temperature was 101-4.

That he was examined by Doctor Wallace at 11 a.m., January 2T,	1916, when it was
found that influenza was present, but gradually becoming worse. Temperature, 7 a.m., 104-2; pulse, 100 ; respiration, 24.
The disease pursued the usual course until 11 a.m., January 28, 1916, when heart failed. He became cyanosed. Pulse became imperceptible and he died at 12 a.m. same date in spite of temperature 100-4, pulse 90, respiration 30."
(Sgd.) W. E. Hodgins,
Major-General,
Adjutant-General.


John Gillanders Turriff: It seems to me that when his temperature was ranging up to 104 there was great carelessness on the part of the Militia authorities or of the doctors in charge that this man's people were not notified. I wonder what degree of temperature would be necessary before they would notify the relatives? The report that the temperature went up to 104 degrees carries condemnation on its face. Any one who knows anything about fevers or about temperatures knows that his relatives should have been notified when he was in that condition.


Robert Laird Borden: The temperature does seem to have been very high.


John Gillanders Turriff: There is absolutely no excuse for a thing like that.


Frank Oliver: In reference to the punishments inflicted, no doubt the committee highly approves the decision of the Government not to permit such punishment in future. May I ask whether any consideration has been given to the officers who inflicted these punishments?


Robert Laird Borden: I have not con suited the Adjutant General with regard to that; there has not been an opportunity of doing so. The punishments were authorized under the British War Office regulations, which are applicable to our force. It is not usual to administer such punishments in Great Britain, and they will not be administered here in the future. 'The punishments do not seem to have been attended with any ill effects to the physique of the young men, and I do not know under the circumstances whether the Adjutant General would recommend any disciplining of the officers or not. I shall, however, consult him as to that.


Frank Oliver: I take the opportunity of expressing the opinion that while the officers had the authority of the regulations enabling them to inflict this punishment, the fact that the regulation had become obsolete in Great Britain was evidence of
a change in conditions and opinions that . an officer properly appreciating. his position and responsibilities would surely have taken notice of. In Canada, where conditions are so far removed from those that prevail in military circles in England, an officer who would exercise the authority given by the regulations to that extent would seem to have shown that he was not the man for the position; that there was error in judgment in placing him in that position, or that, at any rate, after his having committed that error in judgment it would be a mistake to continue him in the position. It is not possible to lay down rules and regulations for the conduct of officers, especially commanding officers under all circumstances. If an officer does not show that he has judgment over and above what is laid down in the regulations, it seems to me that he demonstrates that he is not the man for the position. The Government would be well advised to take that into consideration.


Robert Laird Borden: It is stated in the report which has been made, and which I read to-day as well as yesterday, that these incidents doubtless occurred through ignorance of the officer that the particular form of punishment administered was no longer used in Great Britain. It appeared in the regulations, and on the strength of the regulations they felt entitled to administer that punishment. Further than that, so far as the present case is concerned, and also, apparently, so far as the cases in the West are concerned, there had been very grave breaches of discipline. I do not know as to the particulars of the western cases.


William Erskine Knowles: It is not very clear that there were any grave breaches of discipline in the western cases.


Robert Laird Borden: I am merely referring to the report, which 3ays that the breach of discipline was flagrant, or something of that kind. From the Provost Marshall's investigation it seemed that aggravated cases only were dealt with in this way. In the Nova Scotia case, a man while under detention escaped, remained away from his regiment for about two weeks and then returned. He had been guilty of six distinct offences within a period of four weeks previous to that. It was, therefore, regarded as a very* aggravated case, and the commanding officer administered this punishment.
\


John Gillanders Turriff: In the case of an investigation of this kind, is it the officer complained of who investigates and makes the report?


Robert Laird Borden: The Provost Marshal made the investigation, not the officer in command. The investigation is made under the direction of the officer commanding the military district.


Frank Oliver: The Prime Minister has
not so far been good enough to say whether the Government has any intention of going into this question of the fitness of these officers for their positions or the propriety of administering some form of punishment.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps my
hon. friend did not understand what I said with regard to that. I stated that I would consult the proper officer of the department, who in this case is the Adjutant General. I would ask the opinion also of the Chief of the General Staff, General Gwatkin, who is an officer of long experience and sound judgment, as is, indeed, the Adjutant General himself.


Frank Oliver: The matter is very far
reaching. In our present condition, when we are attempting to enlist the active service and therefore the sympathy of most of our people in military affairs, such circumstances as these, which are very foreign to our ideas of right and justice, and so very foreign to custom, have a very prejudicial effect. Their tendency would be to prejudice the public mind very greatly against military service. Cases having occurred, it would seem to me that something should be done to demonstrate to the public that such conduct is absolutely contrary to the policy of the country, in military as well as in civil affairs.


Robert Laird Borden: We have not yet the full report of this investigation, but only a summary by wire. It is possible that some recommendations may be made by the officer who is charged with the duty of investigation. My hon. friends will remember what was said by the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) last night, that while 99 per cent, or 999 out of 1,000, may be the very best men you can find, you do occasionally find in a regiment a man who habitually offends against discipline and whose example to the other men in the regiment is very detrimental indeed. Notwithstanding that, instructions 
have been given that this particular form of punishment, which at one time prevailed, but which has now become obsolete in Great Britain, shall not be administered in the future in Canada. I really cannot say anything more about the officers than what I have stated. A consultation will be had with the proper officers of the department, and their view of the conduct of those who are responsible for the administration of punishment on these occasions will be ascertained. Considering that we have- enlisted 320,000 men, who have been trained in Canada during the past eighteen or twenty months, there have been very few instances of anything like this. At the moment I cannot recall anything other than the few cases in the West and a case in Nova Scotia. So in that respect I think, perhaps, we are entitled to congratulate ourselves that so few incidents of a regrettable character have occurred.


William Erskine Knowles: While it is true that there may be 99 per cent of the men good and 1 per cent bad, it is also possible that there may be a certain percentage of our officers who are not the highest type of officers. As to this punishment being set out in the field regulations, I do not think there are many officers who would hide behind that. I have no doubt that the same field regulations say that if a man deserts he should be shot. If you are going to say that you should go by the letter of the bond, it would be as much a justification for shooting boys who desert-and some of them, nice boys, do desert-and it w'ould be preposterous to say that the field regulations were in force to that extent, I should think that the very woTd " field " regulations would be enough to convince any man that, in a city like Moosejaw, it is not necessary to adopt such regulations as you would at the salient at Ypres. I should think that the field regulations were made for the firing line. No mention is made in the report, of the young man named O'Brien. I know that the Prime Minister has only a telegraphic report at present and it may be that this case may have been overlooked in the telegram. I see by the press that a meeting of the (battalion, or something of that kind, was held, and a vote was taken to the effect that they would stay by the Colonel, which to my mind is not a good sign. You will always get men who will vote for their colonel, especially that kind of a colonel. There are not many who would desire to have a taste of the cast-iron wheel to. which the men were

tied, and naturally they would think that, all things considered, they had hetteT vote for the colonel as long as he was colonel. The commanding officer, whose name I have never mentioned, may be an honourable officer. He said in a public address in the city of Moosejaw that he has been stabbed from behind. I am not going to enter into any controversy with him, but I will say that I am more convinced now than I was when I first mentioned it that I was discharging my duty when I brought this matter to the attention of the House, and I have no reason to doubt that the address he is reported to have made in Moosejaw last Sunday night referred to my remarks. It was not an utterance an officer should have made. I have my duty to perform, and he has his. So far as I have had any personal relations with him, they have been of unalloyed friendship. I know him very slightly, because he is a stranger in our city. When will the-full report likely be received in Ottawa?


Robert Laird Borden: We expect it
some time in the early part of next week.
Mr. CfLIVER: Last night the Prime Minister referred to an investigation in regard to the Ross rifle. Is that report available?


Robert Laird Borden: ' I think the report could not be brought down; it is of a confidential character.


Frank Oliver: Was it a British or a
Canadian investigation?


Robert Laird Borden: It was undeT
the direction of General Alderson himself, and was made by officers appointed by him for the purpose.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: On April
26 some questions were answered with reference to the employment of Mr. J. A. Spidal as Tecruiting officer in the county of Kings. The answer was that he had been in the employ of the department from November 9, 1915, until January 4, 1916. My information is that he is at present at Berwick in command of a detachment of the 219th Battalion, and it is said that he is still in the employ of the Government and is receiving military pay. I am also informed that he has been wearing his uniform and, having been nominated as the Conservative candidate for the legislature, he has recently been attending Conservative meetings in his uniform. It would appear that perhaps there is a misapprehension somewhere. I desire to know if the statement is correct that he has not
been in the employ of this Government since January 4, 1916, and if he has been disporting himself in a military uniform while not in discharge of any duties as an officer?


Robert Laird Borden: I have no personal knowledge of the matter. The answer given was communicated in the usual way by the officers of the department. The deputy minister will take a note of the question and give the information later. So-far as concerns the question of engaging in political activities, I do not understand the rule <jf the department or of the War Office to debar a man from becoming a cana candidate.


William Chisholm: I did not
say that.


Robert Laird Borden: The other day
I had an application from the Premier of Quebec asking for leave of absence for an officer who is on active service. The request was that he should receive leave-of absence for 30 days in order that he might attend to his duties as a candidate in the general elections pending in the province of Quebec. We at once gave him leave of absence for that purpose, and he was relieved of his military duties in order that he might attend to matters requiring his attention as a candidate. The same rule will be observed in regard to all persons on active service, whatever their political affiliations may be.


William Chisholm: No objection is taken to his being a candidate, or to his taking a part in politics. He has a perfect right to do so if he so desires. The reason I mentioned the matter was because of an answer to a question on 26th April, to be found on page 3219 of Hansard. The question was: "Is it the intention of the Government to continue to employ Mr. Spiddel in such service?" The answer was, "No." A previous question was: "When was he appointed?" The answer was: "November 9, 1915." Another question was: "What rank does he hold, and what pay does he receive?" The answer was: "No militia rank. $3 per diem from November 9, 1915, to January 4, 1916." ' The inference is that on January 4, 1916, he ceased to hold his position as recruiting officer. In respect to his rank, I am told that he has taken a lieutenant's course at the Royal School of Infantry at Halifax, and that that answer is not correct. It may well be that the other answers were incorrectly given, not intentionally, of course, but through

some misapprehension. It is alleged that this man is now in Berwick in command of a detachment of the 209th Battalion. It is also stated that he still continues in the capacity of recruiting officer, and is drawing pay as such. In support of that statement, the evidence is that he has been going through the country in his uniform, and that he attended a meeting at Kent* ville and was chairman on that occasion. That, however, is only mentioned in passing. I shall be very glad if the minister would get this information, and furnish it as soon as convenient.


Robert Laird Borden: I will have inquiry made, and give the information to my hon. friend when the Bill is in committee.


John Gillanders Turriff: I noticed that the acting minister stated that it was not his intention, and that it had not been the intention of the Minister of Militia, to allow political influence to be used in connection with the department. We all know perfectly well that there has been politics in the Militia Department, and in connection with the army, from the beginning of the war until the present moment; we see it manifested all over the country. I do not say that it would be possible for the Government to do away with it altogether, but there i3 no use in shutting our eyes to the fact that politics cut a very large figure in connection with the running of the Militia Department.


Robert Laird Borden: In what respect?


John Gillanders Turriff: Let me give my right hon. friend an instance. A battalion is being organized in Prince Albert, and an hon. member of this House is the lieutenant-colonel, while his son-in-law is second in command, having been put over the head of a man who had had military experience. If that is not politics, I do not know what it is. But what I got up to bring to the attention of the acting minister was this: A man named Frank Carew, whose father is a member of the local Legislature, is the paymaster for some soldiers located in Lindsay, Ont. He has clerks to do his work, and, while dressed in military uniform, runs his father's office. He is paid by the Militia Department. That seems to me to look as if political influence was at work. I have information of another case. A man named Roenik, a German, draws pay as bandmaster, though he is not the bandmaster; he is too old to

attend to his duties or to go overseas, and another man named Heffernan is in reality *the leader of the band and bandmaster. In other words, the man who does not do the wr rk draws the pay for it. It strikes me that that savours a little of political influence, and I do not think that that sort of think should be allowed. In my own constituency one man applied for a position as an officer; he is an officer now. He has had a long experience, having been in the Mounted Police force during the greater part of his life, but he told me that another man had been placed over his nead-a very good man, a lawyer, and a good supporter of the Government, but with no military experience whatever, while the other man had put in 20 years in the Mounted Police, and was an officer in a local corps long before the war started; yet he was passed over. Cases like these are numerous throughout the country, and I think it would be well if my right hon. friend, the acting minister, would, as far as possible, do away with that sort of thing and not have experienced military men turned down. I am not speaking now so much of political influence, but of men with some military experience being turned down for men who have had no experience. I do not think that that is in the interest of the Militia Department, or in the interest of our army when it goes across the water. Certainly it requires some experience to enable a man to be a good officer when he goes to the firing line. These are just a few cases that have been brought to my attention. I have heard of many more, but I cannot mention them because I do not know more about them. You hear every day of this man or that man being passed over for some one else with political pull but without any military qualifications.


Mr. BURNHAM:: I think that in justice to the people of the country the statement of the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) should not go unchallenged. Take for example the battalion which I know very well: discipline prevents me from mentioning the number. The colonel is a Liberal; the majority of the officers were Conservatives, and there were three applicants for the position. Two of them were Conservatives, but 'everybody pulled for the Liberal. When I say " pulled " I do not mean that there was any improper pulling done. They wanted to see the Liberal get the position for the sake of the service. There is no use in sending broadcast

through this country the idea that the Conservative party is honeycombed with vice of that description, because it is not 'so.


Mr. STEVENS:: I quite agree with the
hon. member for West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham), that this statement should not be allowed'to go unchallenged. From Vancouver we have sent three battalions to the front. The commanding officers of these battalions are all prominent Liberals, prominent citizens, and excellent officers. One of them, who is now at the front-the Prime Minister knows him very well; I will not mention his name-has earned the D.S.O. and other distinctions./ With regard to the case my hon. friend has spoken of, it is quite correct that the commanding officer had for his second-in-command his brother-in-law; but this was not a case of political influence. He appointed his brother-in-law, not because he was a Liberal, but because he bad a liking for him; it was just a little bit of human nature; and the man is discharging his duties in an excellent manner. No one can complain of that; I would not think of suggesting political influence, or that the officer was appointed because he was a Liberal. The brigade commander is also a prominent Liberal and an excellent officer. I have no objection to him whatever. As long as a man can do his duty to the country I do not care a scrap what his politics are, and as far as the district I represent is concerned, I resent the suggestion that politics count one scrap in appointments to the army. I challenge any member to cite one single instance in which 1 have ever suggested politics in the appointment of officers or in the purchase of supplies in any shape ox form. From the day the war broke out I have taken most emphatically the stand that politics should not enter into this war as regards military appointments. It is unwise And unfair to be continually throwing out to the country that our magnificent army is a matter of political patronage; it is not fair, it is not right, and I resent it.


Mr. McKENZIE:: The hon. gentleman
may resent it; I suppose he has a right to. But let me tell him on my responsibility as a member of this House that military affairs in the province I come from are, if I may use his expression, honeycombed with politics from start to finish, it being purely a matter of political patronage, and I challenge the hon. member or any one else to prove to the contrary. In the county from which I come we have Mr. Douglas, who is president of the Conservative Association for the province of Nova Scotia. He is also one of the local members for the county, and has just as firm a grip on every move in every battalion in Cape Breton as he has in what may be regarded as matters of legitimate patronage.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: Did my hon. friend say that Mr. Douglas was president of the Conservative Association in Nova Scotia?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I understood that he
was. '


Avard Longley Davidson: He is not.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If not, a change must have been made in the last few months. He was president last year.


Avard Longley Davidson: Mr. A. B. Crosby has
been president since last fall.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Mr. Douglas was the
president, at all events, and he is now either vice-president or honorary president. The hon. member for Annapolis knows well the standing that Mr. Douglas has in the Conservative party. I am making no misstatement at all about his position, and if the Prime Minister, either as Prime Minister or as Acting Minister of Militia, will take, the trouble of getting some independent information as to how matters are managed in the county of Cape Breton, he will find that they are absolutely honeycombed, to again use my hon. friend's expression, with political influence. We are not looking for anything else; we do not expect anything else; we never get anything else. I say to the hon. member for Vancouver and to the Prime Minister that not one man east of Halifax has received any military prominence since the war broke out, unless he was a supporter of the Conservative party and identified with the cause. We have one gentleman in Halifax of whom I am very proud. He bears the name of the Prime Minister, and is a well-recognized Liberal. His ability prominence and personality have brought him forward; they could not keep him back; but he is the only Liberal in Nova Scotia who has received any prominence whatever since the war broke out. I challenge any one to name any other man who 'has come to the front in any way whatsoever in the province of Nova Scotia, unless he was well recognized to be in harmony with the Government of the day.
We are told that there is no political influence in the matter of supplies for the troops. I asked some questions a few days

ago as to supplies for the 94th at Sydney Mines and North Sydney, and I got the answer that the officers went around and got bids from different parties for the supplies. I have the names of those who furnished the supplies, and I should be glad to show them to the Prime Minister; he knows some of them. There is not a man on the list but got his name down, through political influence, either directly or indirectly; there is not a prominent Liberal on the list at all, and the men who supplied the goods got their money direct from the department without there being any competition. We are not complaining of that; we are not looking for anything else. The acting minister-perhaps not he, for he has not said very much about it, but the Minister of Militia-used to say boastfully that there was no suc'h thing. If he had kept quiet about it we would say nothing, but we cannot listen to such boastful declarations when the truth is absolutely to the contrary. We do not expect any patronage' to come to us in Nova Scotia in public works or railway matters, or anything of that kind, so long as we are in opposition; and that is precisely the policy that has been followed in Nova Scotia in regard to military matters as well. It is the absolute truth that only by some unavoidable accident has anything fallen to the lot of a Liberal. On the other hand, the Liberals have joined the ranks and are doing their part just as well as the others; men and women, Liberal and Conservative, are connected with every patriotic society, doing what they can; but when it comes to preferment or an appointment to a military position the line is strictly drawn; there is no communication between the Jews and Samaritans in things of that kind. We do not complain, but we want hon. gentlemen to keep quiet, and not make vain and improper and unsupported boasts about these things.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does my hon. friend say my remarks were improper?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am referring to no province but my own. Whatever my sins may be, I keep to facts within my own knowledge. But if I were to judge by general politics, I should say that Vancouver is about as corrupt as they make them.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I challenge my hon. friend to prove that.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: On general grounds, I prefer to take the declaration of so distinguished a Conservative as Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper,. who says that 4 p.m. the Conservative party in that province is steeped to the lips in corruption. I leave the issue between that distinguished member of the Conservative party and my hon. friend. I do not wish to find fault, especially as the Prime Minister is head of the department for the present, and is perhaps not so familiar with the details as the real head might be. I was in the province of Nova Scotia a few days ago when some complaints were brought to my notice and I wish, in the kindliest way, to bring them to the notice of the Prime Minister. I have reference to the 195th Battalion, which is now in camp at Broughton, a small place in a remote part of the county of Cape Breton. I do not quite understand why they were sent there. It is not a convenient place for a railway; there is no proper sewerage; there is no water system at the place, and it is practically in the woods where the land is not even cleared and the tents, I am told, are in amongst stumps and 'stones and uncultivated land. The men are complaining that they are not properly looked after and that they are not well fed. I was also told by my Roman Catholic friends that although the soldiers are there for several weeks, over several Sundays, no provision at all has been made for any Roman Catholic services. As they are complaining about these things, I bring them to the notice of the minister in the best manner that I can and with as little publicity as possible, and I trust that these men shall be properly taken care of and housed and well fed, and that their spiritual wants will be looked after as they ought to be.


Robert Laird Borden: Just a word or two with regard to what some of my hon. friends have said. There seems to have . been an impression that the Minister of Militia spends his time making appointments amongst the force of almost 140,000 now under training in Canada. The appointments as I understand, aTe recommended by the Officer Commanding, and the Minister of Militia very often does not even know the names of the officers who are recommended. He takes the view of the officer on the spot as to those whom he should recommend, and he does not concern himself more about the matter, because it would be impossible for him to make personal inquiry into the officers who are selected by the commanding officers

of the different battalions to fill the various positions.


Charles Marcil: Who authorizes each battalion and selects the commanding officer?
Sir ROBERT BORDEN- That is done from headquarters.	*


Charles Marcil: By the Minister of Militia?


Robert Laird Borden: I presume the minister acts upon his own judgment and takes the report of the proper officers of his department as to the competency of the selection which is presented for his approval. My hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) has referred to some matters in the province of Nova S-cotia. I do not know very much about the details, but I am informed that the son of the hon. member for Pictou has been appointed as the adjutant of one of the battalions there. I am also informed that Mr. Rolston, who was the opponent, I think, of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) at the last election, has been very rapidly promoted, and that Col. Parsons, who was appointed to be second in command of the 185th Battalion, is a very strong Liberal. The remarks of the hon. member for North Cape Breton and Victoria are rather surprising in view of the fact that not long since a resolution was passed, I think, at a Liberal convention in Nova Scotia, giving the crbdit for the organization of the Highland Brigade in Nova Scotia to the Hon. Mr. Murray, premier of that province. If Mr. Murray has imbued himself with the political aspect of the situation to the extent which my hon. friend suggests, I admit that my hon. friend's remarks which must be taken as an animadversion upon him, are well founded, but I do not believe that Mr. Murray's connection with such matters has had anything more to do with politics than the connection of the Minister' of Militia. It is a fact as reported to me that great credit is taken by the Liberal party in Nova Scotia for the organization of the Highland Brigade. Yet my hon. friend stands on the floor of this Parliament and says that the whole thing is honeycombed with politics. If you put those two observations together, you have a result which is not flattering to .the patriotic attitude of hon. gentlemen on the other side.
The battalion at Broughton is under the command of an officer whom I do not personally know except that I saw him in Nova Scotia last autumn, but I have the best possible report as to Col. Day. He
is, I am told, a very able man, a very patriotic man and a man who, I believe, would be inspired by no other consideration or feeling than the desire to do his duty. I have not the slightest idea as to what his politics are, nor have I ever inquired. I would like to say that if the province of Nova Scotia has been honeycombed, as my hon. friend suggests, by partisan considerations, in connection with military affairs, it is different, I believe, from every other province in Canada, because I know that in other provinces gentlemen who are associated with the Liberal party have been promoted to the very highest commands. That is true in the province of Ontario, and many illustrations could be given. As a matter of fact, I venture to think that for every complaint made with regard to some gentleman having been passed over because he happened to be a Liberal, I could give two complaints from Conservatives who thought they were passed over in order that Liberals might be appointed in their stead. In the province of New Brunswick we appointed a member of this House, Col. McLean, to a very important command. He was at Valcartier last autumn, and he has been rendering very good service. In the province of Ontario the highest commands are in many instances given to gentlemen who have a very high standing in the ranks of the Liberal party, and I desire to affirm to -this committee my most sincere belief that from the first of this war up to the present time, the Minister of Militia and Defence has never in a single instance been actuated by any political consideration in any appointment that he has made. That is my sincere belief, from what I have seen and known of his conduct during this war. With regard to the appointment of a Catholic chaplain to the 185th Battalion, I understand that Father Gillis has been appointed.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The Prime Minister says that there are no politics in the department, and that the minister is guided in his appointments by the recommendations of the officer in charge. I would like to call to the attention of the Prime Minister that Toryism gets in its work in making the recommendations to the officer in charge. The Tory politician in my county is supreme so far as military matters are concerned, and he says to the officers: If you do not do my bidding, off goes your head. I will point out to the Prime Minister-and he can look up the record-three

men who were rather independent. Col. McRae, of the 94th Battalion, would not play^ second fiddle to John C. Douglas. Off went his head; he was discharged. Major Gillis, an independent officer and a good Scotchman, would see John C. Douglas in Jericho before he would be pulled around by the nose by him, and off went his head. Major McLean, who was in charge of the 94th Battalion at North Sydney, was known to be a Liberal. He would not be dictated to by John C. Douglas and his minions, and off went his head.


Charles Marcil: Who is John C. Douglas?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: He is the Tory manager in the county of Cape Breton. The men who are in charge and who are human enough to think that it is nice to stay in office, do precisely what John C. Douglas tells them to do, and through the medium of those men the Tory appointments come to the minister, and he can flap his holy wings and say: I know nothing about the matter; it is done absolutely without any bias at all. But he knows that nothing can come to him but what is absolutely lined with Toryism.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I cannot allow the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) to go unchallenged. It has been whispered and insinuated many times regarding British Columbia. The leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) laughed with considerable glee when the hon. member for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) made the Temark. But I challenge the Tight hon. gentleman and the hon. member for North Cape Breton to cite a single sentence falling from the lips of Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper in which he cast any reflection whatever upon a single act of the Administration at Ottawa or upon a single act of mine as the representative of Vancouver in this House.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I shall be glad to do so if he will give me the time.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Do so. I will take my seat to give the hon. gentleman his opportunity.


Mr McKENZIE:: I have not the papers before me, but on Monday-


Henry Herbert Stevens: Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper did consider it his duty to take the platform against the Provincial Government. With that I have nothing to do, and this House has nothing to do; the people of British Columbia will judge of that. But by not one single word has Sir

Charles Hibbert Tupper cast any aspersion, direct or indirect, upon this Government or upon any administrative act of this Government. And I want to say something further for the consolation of my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for North Cape Breton, and that is that the only corruption that has come to light in the last election is the wholesale plugging on behalf of Mr. M. A. Macdonald, the Liberal hero in Vancouver. They brought men by the score from Seattle, self-confessed pluggers, and voted them for Mr. Macdonald, the Grit candidate. That is the only corruption that has been shown in the city of Vancouver in connection with the recent election.


Frank Oliver: Will the hon. gentleman inform the House what this House has to do with that?


Henry Herbert Stevens: An aspersion has been
cast upon the province of British Columbia by the hon. member for North Cape Breton, and even at the risk of being out of order I would resent it on the floor of this House; and I think I have a right to do so when these statements are made here. For months and months the papers of eastern Canada have been circulating false and slanderous stories regarding British Columbia, and it is about time some one said a word to the people bf the East in regard to my province. If time permitted, I could convince any reasonable member of this House that conditions in British Columbia, politically and otherwise, are a credit to the province and to Canada as a whole. Unless an hon. member is prepared to bring some specific charge or statement before the House, he should respect the representatives of the people from that province.


Mr. LOGGIE:: I had the pleasure of
visiting Halifax, last fall, and while there I called upon several of the prominent mercantile establishments. I was told by a reputable firm that when ships of the imperial navy came into port at Halifax, tenders were publicly asked for supplies for the ships, but when supplies were needed for a Canadian ship, a few people were selected to tender. In my opinion, this way of buying supplies should cease; in this matter, we ought to attain as high a standard as the Imperial authorities. The firm that gave me this information is a reputable firm, and I think its testimony is conclusive evidence that, to some extent at any rate, there is a disposition to carry

on the abominable practice of petty politics and party patronage in the purchase of war supplies.


Robert Laird Borden: That relates to
the Department of the Naval Service, and so I cannot pretend to be familiar with the matter; but I should be surprised to learn that the statement of my hon. friend has any foundation whatever. If the supplies for British ships are purchased through the Department of the -Naval Service it is inconceivable that they should have one system for British ships and another system for Canadian ships. To what Canadian ships does the hon. member refer?


William Stewart Loggie: I refer to ships under the authority of the Canadian Naval Department, but the ships to which I refer as publicly asking for tenders are under the authority of the Imperial Government. They are, as I understand it, patrolling out of New York and defending the route to the British Islands. Their supplies are purchased in a different way from those required by ships under control of the Canadian Government,


Robert Laird Borden: So far as transports are concerned-and I do not know whether the hon. gentleman has reference to transports or not-everything.is managed by a gentleman who was formerly associated with the Canadian Pacific Railway, Mr. A. H. Harris, who has been acting as overseas director of transport. And, if I am not very much mistaken, the firm employed as ships' agent for the transports, is a strong Liberal firm. As to the small patrol ships, I do not know how they are supplied, but the Minister of the Naval Service will know ana I will direct his attention to the observations of my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: I have never troubled the House very much with mention of politics in the administration of public affairs, and shall not do so now; but, as the question has been raised concerning influence in military appointments, I may take the opportunity to read from the Edmonton Journal, a Conservative newspaper, something which may throw some light on the matter. This is from the Journal of the 6th of March, 1916:
Major Allan Elliott Declines Offer to Command Guard-Will Remain with the 51st Bat-tallion Which is Soon to he Moved to the Front.
As predicted by the Journal on Saturday, the appointment as officer commanding the 218th
Irish Guards was tendered Major Allan Elliott of the 51st Battalion, by a deputation consisting of A. F. Ewing, M.L.A., Alderman R. N. Frith, and Percy Abbott. The Advisory Committee of representative Irish citizens which is working in unison with IA ,-Colom l McKenery in furthering the interests of the Irish Guards had unanimously decided upon Major Elliott as a fitting soldier to take over this command.
You will observe, Mr. Chairman, that the Irish citizens had decided that Major Elliott was a suitable person to be colonel of a regiment, but that it was a committee . consisting of Mr. Ewing, the Conservative M.L.A., Alderman R. N. Frith, ex-president of the Conservative Association, and Mr. Percy Abbott, who is very prominent in Conservative circles-I do not know what particular office he holds at the present time-these three gentlemen who, as stated by this newspaper supporter of hon. gentlemen opposite, went to Major Elliott and absolutely tendered to him the command, and it was to them he refused to accept it. I think it is only fair, in view of the discussions that have taken place, to lay the facts before the House.


Robert Laird Borden: Where a regiment is proposed to be raised from a particular nationality, I think it is very often desired to obtain the views of those who are very likely to be members of the battalion, and to learn whether or not they have confidence in the particular officer who is proposed to be selected. Something of that kind was done in this case; some representative gentlemen were asked to consult Mr. Elliott on the subject, as he was connected with another battalion, and to ascertain whether or not, if the appointment were offered to him, he would accept it.
Mr. MeKENZIE:	The member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) challenged me to produce proof of certain statements which I made. To take up the challenge of my hon. friend would not, perhaps, be exactly in line with the resolution before us; but I do not want to be charged with making observations that are not backed up by the facts. What I am about to read has reference particularly to Mr. Bowser, and brings in Sir Richard McBride. If I know anything about the politics of British Columbia, that has been the whole push for the last eighteen years-iBowser and McBride, McBride and Bowser. I venture to say the hon. member for Vancouver could never have got the nomination for Vancouver if it had not been for the sup-

port of Bowser and McBride and McBride [DOT]and Bowser.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend is making a very grave mistake.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: My hon. friend may
say so, now that Mr. McBride is out of the country, but I venture to say that when he was in his palmy days no one from British Columbia could say or do anything except by his authority.


The CHAIRMAN:: The hon. gentleman
has, I think, sufficiently verified his assertion of a moment ago, and I do not know that any useful purpose can be served by -this discussion. I submit to the committee that the Chairman is placed in a somewhat helpless position from day to day inasmuch as ministers announce that the widest possible discussion may be had upon a given resolution, notwithstanding the fact that the rules state explicitly that the discussion must be strictly relevant to the item under consideration. Of course, there is nothing for the Chairman to do but submit to the wishes of the committee in that respect, but the committee could assist the Chairman by keeping within such wide bounds as are laid down for discussion in committee. I sincerely hope that the hon. [DOT]member will not pursue the subject any further.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If I may be allowed
to finish what I want to say, I will not add anything to my Temarks. The hon. member for Vancouver put me in the position That I was making statements for which I had no authority; I am simply going to read my authority.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member will [DOT]see that this will involve a reply from the hon. member for Vancouver and so on, ad infinitum.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Permit me to say this: I have the telegram of Sir Charles Tupper in my hand which denounces in the worst terms the Tory party-and you will not permit me to read it.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member will have ample opportunity before the session is over. I think he himself will agree with me that it will be far wiser not to pursue the subject any further.


Frank Oliver: Something has been said
to-day about a surplus of officers in Canada and something was said on a previous occasion about a surplus of officers in Eng-lland. What is the position in England

with regard to what may be called supernumerary officers? The statement was made here that as battalions have gone overseas, for one reason or another officers have ceased to be attached to them and are maintained on pay in England without rendering service. If that occurs to any large degree it is an evil that should not be permitted. It burdens the country and is a discrimination in favour of men who do not merit it. I certainly think the committee is entitled to understand from the head of the department what that situation is.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a supply of officers in Great Britain, above what is called the establishment. A communication was sent within the past two weeks to General Carson for information on the subject and the reply was to the effect that every one'of the officers was attached to some unit and that every one of them was being employed. A fuller statement will come by letter. Pending the receipt of this reply a further inquiry was addressed to General Carson, to which a reply has not yet been received, so far as I am aware.


Frank Oliver: I wish to bring to the at* tention of the minister a certain'instance that I have already discussed in part with the Minister of the Interior, who advised me that I should take the matter up with the Department of Militia. It relates to a battalion which was raised at Edmonton, and which was listed at Valcartier as the 9th Battalion. When war broke out there was in Edmonton a volunteer battalion known as the 101st. It was at full strength and was under the command of one Colonel Osborne. When war wa3 declared this battalion offered its services as a body to the Government for service overseas; at least that is my information. It was not accepted, but authority was given foT the raising of an overseas battalion, with the result that a battalion was raised immediately for -overseas service under Colonel Osborne, and that battalion was amongst the first, if not the first, to reach Valcartier, although it came from Edmonton, further away than almost any other battalion that came to Valcartier. It came to Valcartier over strength; I think there were some 1,300 men in the battalion. Some little time after it had been at Valcartier I am informed that as Colonel Osborne sat in his tent one morning another gentleman, Colonel Maynard Rogers, entered the tent and said to Colonel Osborne:

.154a
" I am in command of the 9th Battalion." Colonel Maynard Rogers is a former resident of Ottawa. He removed to Edmonton and was finally appointed the superintendent of Jasper Park. Having had military experience, when war broke out he volunteered his services, and they were accepted. He left his employment at Jasper Park, came to Valcartier, and was given command of the 9th Battalion, over the head of the man who had raised it and had brought it down there, and with just the amount of ceremony, so I am informed, that I have related to the committee. Colonel Osborne accepted the situation and continued with the battalion as second in command. The battalion went overseas in due course, reached England, and while it was in England-I do not know all of what occurred, but in the end Colonel Osborne was retired altogether from the battalion, and, though retaining his rank, I suppose, was returned to Canada without military employment. My information is that it was found that Colonel Rogers was not competent for the position of colonel in the field; the fact was, at any rate, that the battalion was broken up and there was not any 9th Battalion from that time forward. The members of that battalion were distributed around among other battalions, and when I read the casualty lists issued in pamphlet or book form some time ago, I noticed that in the lists of casualties in the various battalions were men " formerly 9th Battalion." My information was that Colonel Rogers never went on active service in Europe, that he was one of the unattached officers in England until General Lessard was sent over to England; and then this Colonel Rogers was given a position as staff officer to him, and I suppose has been engaged in that service since. But from the time that the battalion went to England until he went to the front with General Lessard, so far as I am aware, he did no military service, and my opinion is that not only did he do no military service but, by reason of his lack of military ability, he did a serious dis-service in having been the cause of breaking up the 9th Battalion. At the same time, as the Minister of the Interior informs us, Colonel Rogers is drawing his salary as superintendent of Jasper park, $2,400 a year. He has been, of course, drawing his salary as Lieut.-Colonel during all this time. But not only is he not rendering the country or the Empire any service, but he rendered ,a serious dis-service by reason of his having 224
been put in a position which he was not competent to fill. I do not know how many other cases there may be like that, but it appears to me that when there i3 such a startling case it should be made public, and I hope there are no other such cases. But the information that has come to me is that there are a very large number of them. The Minister of the Interior told us that Colonel Rogers drew his salary as superintendent of Jasper park, and was still drawing it. I say that is wrong. When it was found that this gentleman was not adapted for the command of a military battalion for active service, he should, in all common sense, have been returned to civil employment, for which I believe he was entirely fitted. Remember that I have no fault to find with Colonel Rogers personally or in his civil employment, but, having left his civil employment and undertaken military employment, and being found unfit for it, the results being as they were-and they were certainly very displeasing to men who are interested and to many of their friends -I cannot give the administration under which such a condition exists, that commendation that I should be very glad to give, and certainly such a state of affairs does not tend to efficiency or satisfaction.


Robert Laird Borden: I am rather surprised at my hon. friend's animadversions on Colonel Rogers; unless he has good grounds for them. Colonel Rogers has had a long military experience in the militia of Canada, to my certain knowledge; and unless I am mistaken he also saw active service in the South African war.


Frank Oliver: He did.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand he is engaged in Great Britain in connection with the training of the troops there'. I do not know all the particulars. So far as Colonel Osborne is concerned, I do not remember ever hearing of him or of the incident to which my hon. friend refers. That occurred a long time ago. If the Minister of Militia were here doubtless he could give some information. I shall have inquiry made. If my hon. friend has anything else as to which he would like information, I wish he would state it now so that we can take it up at the proper time.


John Gillanders Turriff: Who was the contractor for supplying clothing to the department last year, and who is the contractor at the present time?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could not say. We will get the information and give it to my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: There is another matter to which I wish to draw attention and it is in regard to recruiting. The Prime Minister said the other day that in the scheme of recruiting an effort was made to direct the exertions of those who were concerned to different localities where they would Tesult in the least disturbance to the economic situation. I am compelled to take the view that that has not been the guiding policy of the department. My opinion is that they have been guided simply and solely by the possibility of securing recruits, and that wherever recruiting was good they took all the recruits they could without regard to the result to the community at large. I have no fault to find with the action of the department, but I do find fault with the assertion that discrimination has been used when there has been no such discrimination. If I may be permitted to giye a statement of the recruiting that has taken place in Northern Alberta, of course with Edmonton as its headquarters, it will be seen just how much and how far consideration was paid to the circumstances which my right hon. friend has dealt with. On August 12, 1914, 120 men were recruited for the Princess Pats; on August 13, 116; and on Aug. 14, 65 men. On Aug. 22, the 101st sent 908 men. On August 26, the 19th Alberta Dragoons sent 206 men. On August 27, the 101st, that is the 9th Battalion, sent 350 men. That made 1,250 men in that 9th Battalion. On the 3rd of November a contingent of 100 men was sent to Quebec City, and in order to let the committee know the exact circumstances of that draft, I may say that a telegram was sent to Edmonton saying that 100 men were wanted. Those men threw down what they were engaged in and left the city, they did not take time to settle their affairs in any way. They simply took the next train for Quebec under the impression that the city had been attacked, or that there was some catastrophe that made such a call for men urgent. When they got to Quebec they found that all they were wanted for was to fill up a regiment that was somewhat short of its full number. On Nov. 16, 101 men went to Calgary to join the 31st Battalion there. On Nov. 17, another detachment went to Calgary to joint the 31st Battalion; on Nov. 25, 110 men went to Calgary

to join the 31et Battalion; on Nov. 28, 40 men enlisted for the Lethbridge Artillery; on Dec. 12, 40 more men went to the 31st at Calgary. On Jan. 4, the Mounted Rifles, recruited under Colonel Kemmis, secured 164 men; on May 7, the first Universities Company sent a draft of 9 men; on May 8, a draft of 250 men was taken for the 51st Battalion, under Captain Hig-ginson; on May 24, the second Universities Company sent 16 men; on May 29, the 49th Battalion, with base company, sailed for overseas, 1,300 strong. On June 1st, "C" Squad, 3rd C.M.R., Major Fane, recruited 164; on June 24, the 3rd Universities Company recruited 35 men; on August 13, another draft of the 51st Battalion, 270 men, went forward; on September 6, a draft of the 63rd Battalion, 252 men, went forward; on September 11, a draft of the 65th Battalion, 250 men, went forward; on October 4, the 4th Universities Company, 20 men, went forward; on November 17, a Pioneer Battalion, 75 men, went forward; on December 3, Serbian and Montenegrin reservists, to the number of 80, went forward; on December 5, the 5th Universities Company, 50 men, went forward; on December 19, the American Legion, 100 men, went forward; on December 20, 99 French-Canadians went east to join a regiment in St. Boniface.
Besides those who have gone forward, there was the 63rd Battalion, with a base company in the city numbering 1,132 men. It transferred to the Pioneers 35 men, and to the 50th Battalion 23 men. There was also the 66th Battalion with a base company, numbering 1,136, and it transferred to the Pioneers 50, and to the Artillery 10 men. In addition there was the 51st Battalion, with a base company, 1,263 men, and it transferred to the Pioneers 35 men and to the Artillery 10. There were also the 138th Battalion, 1,050 men; the 151st Battalion, 1,050 men; the 194th Highlanders (authorized) 1,050 men-this battalion is not up to strength yet-and a battalion to be raised by Lt. Col. Bowen, 1,050 men. There have been two other battalions authorized there since. I think this list will show that the only consideration in recruiting seems to have been to get men if they can be got. There has been no effort to distribute the quota throughout the country according to population; no rule at all other than to get the men if they can be got.


Mr. MORPHY:: Did some of these men not come from long distances?


Frank Oliver: Yes, from the northern part of the province.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: So that the recruiting covered a very large territorial area?


Frank Oliver: Yes, the men came from all parts of northern Alberta, Edmonton, of course, being the recruiting centre. But even so, according to the Ottawa Journal, the province of Alberta has already re-'cruited some 2,000 more men, according to population, than would be its fair proportion of the 500,000 caJlled for by the Prime Minister last January, and still the recruiting is going on. I am not objecting to that; we are perfectly satisfied that that should be so. But when it is. asserted that there has been' discrimination used, I want to say that the facts do not bear that contention out.
A further remark which I desire to make is that at the present time there are six battalions recruiting from Northern Alberta with headquarters at Edmonton. I do not consider that it is in the interest of recruiting that there should be so many battalions recruiting at the same time. When two battalions are recruiting at the same time, there may possibly be an element of competition that is good, but when there is a larger number of battalions, all looking for men, it does not tend to secure the best results. I do not think that the department is well advised in having so many battalions recruiting at once. When an authorization is made, and two battalions are recruited up to full strength, let two more be authorized, if that is thought desirable, but to authorize four or five different battalions to recruit at the same time, in a small place and in a thinly populated country, makes the work of the officers who are attending to the recruiting very difficult, much more difficult than if they were permitted to recruit, say, only two battalions at a time. I see the acting minister is not in the House at the present moment, but I would like to hear from him.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: We have sent for him.


George Eulas Foster: The item can
stand.
Civil Government-Department of Trade and Commerce-to provide for 16 clerkships in the third division, subdivision " B," Census and Statistics Branch, at $600 each, $9,600.


George Eulas Foster: This item looks as if it involved a large addition to the
224J
service, but in reality there is no addition. It simply means that we are putting on the permanent list clerks Who, since 1911, have been on the temporary list. These temporary clerks constitute quite a large proportion of the help in the Census and Statistics Department because of the change in character of the work. When compilation ceases these clerks are laid off, and when compilation is at its height the number of clerks is at its maximum. After compilation in connection with the last census ceased the term of service of these temporary clerks came to an end. Amongst them were sixteen of the very best clerks who had become adepts in the working of the different machines and in the peculiar kinde of compilation that are made and what we wish to do now is to put them on the permanent list, so that these experienced and really good hands may be kept in the Census Department for the regular work. Their services will become necessary soon, if not immediately, in connection with the compilation of the Northwest Census, which is to be taken in June. After that there will be sufficient work of a steady and permanent kind to employ them. We do not want to have them dispersed after they have been trained for three or four years, and, when we come to need assistance, be compelled to get fresh hands and train them.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that these clerks are to be paid at 1600 a year?


George Eulas Foster: They are put on at the salary which they are getting at the present time, which is $600, and they will go up to $900.


Wilfrid Laurier: By regular progression?


George Eulas Foster: By the regular gradation.
To provide for the development and extension of Canadian trade, $150,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the programme?


George Eulas Foster: This is an item which the committee is asked to vote in relation to the programme which I outlined in the House some two weeks ago. A portion of this amount will be used for the extension of trade commissionerships, as they may be required. There is a vote in the main Estimates which is insufficient to accomplish the work which will be neces-

sary during the year 1917, and a portion of this vote will be used for that purpose, but just what portion I do not know; it will depend upon what circumstances demand, and somewhat upon how the war progresses. I think I explained before that we are opening new trade commissioner-ships in Russia-one at Petrograd, and one at Omsk, in Siberia, with some sub-trade commissionerships in cities tributary to these two centres. These are not very important, however, as the salaries paid to the men are not ldrge, they being correspondents and not regular trade commissioners. Then, we are preparing a trade commissioner for Italy, and in the course of the year he will be ready to take his place and engage in the work there. Then, two other sub-commissioners are being trained for work in ether parts, as necessities may develop.


Wilfrid Laurier: Whereabouts in Italy will the trade commissioner be stationed ?


George Eulas Foster: Of that I am not certain. The trade commission of which I spoke the other day in the House, in the course of its investigations, is to make a short stay in Italy, and we shall be better able to discuss the question of headquarters after we have made some further inquiry, and, possibly, after their return. The trade commissioners will also visit France, Belgium, and the United Kingdom. The commission will consist of six members. It is an honorary commission, but of course their expenses will be paid. There are also to be attached to the commission, for working purposes, a number of representatives of large special interests. These representatives or experts accompany the commissioners in an honorary and unpaid capacity, the interests themselves providing the men. A certain amount of expenses will of course be incurred in connection with this commission, and they will be paid out of the $150,000.
I stated also that it was the intention to form a bureau of commercial information. That will have to be organized, and will take a certain amount of money. It is not the intention of the department to rush into a full-blown bureau of commercial information, but rather to proceed by judicious steps from a small beginning to a greater enlargement afterwards. But a considerable amount of expense will be necessary even to make a small beginning. I am not able

to tell the committee just how 5 p.m. much will be expended, nor the exact plans on which the work will proceed, although I have the plans fairly well mapped out- A little more consideration, and the advice of experienced men, together with a study of the mode of operating that is followed in other countries, will no doubt have an influence upon the establishment and methods to be pursued. Those who have followed the course of matters incidental to trade and commerce in Great Britain will know that the British Government made a very elaborate selection of articles of German and Austrian production, and collected a very large and representative exhibit. They have been showing that exhibit in the large cities of the United Kingdom for the last eight or nine months. I got into early communication with the Board of Trade in England and have been successful in getting their consent to having the exhibit put into the hands of the Department of Trade and Commerce for Canada. It will be brought out and exhibited in a number of our large cities, and at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto, which is held in the latter part of August and the early part of September. In order to exhibit that properly some expenditure will be necessary, and all the expenses in connection with it, from the time it leaves London until it returns there, will of course be borne by Canada, and disbursed by my own department. The object of the exhibit is to show manufacturers and producers in Great Britain and in Canada, as it will be exhibited here, the kind of articles, the quality of the articles, and the cost of the articles which were so largely supplied by German and Austrian producers to Great Britain, and largely also to Canada and all the other overseas Dominions. That exhibit, will come under this vote. The necessity for research work along various lines of production and industry is, I think, perfectly understood and appreciated in Canada. Whilst a good deal has been done in that respect, Canada has suffered as most other countries have, from not having had an eye out in that direction long ago and not having adapted means for linking together more closely than has been done hitherto the laboratory and the research chamber with the practical working out of industrial and productive operations. So it was that the Germans, having given great attention to that, having laid great stress upon it and having understood its necessity in the industrial trade competition, had arrogated

and gathered to themselves in the years before the war a monopoly of many of the most important processes connected with industrial production. When the war broke out and the connection was changed, Great Britain herself, as almost every other nation, woke up to the fact that invaluable sources and necessities for supplies were monopolized by the country which was now her enemy, and the British manufacturers were left, so to speak, high and dry. The best exemplification of that is what happened in reference to dyestuffs and chemical products connected with textile work. The entire world outside of Germany was thrown into utter and absolute confusion because of the fact that, in the course of the preceding years, a monopoly of that kind of product had gradually been gained by Germany, and when the war broke out, it was almost a complete monopoly. Then again, everyone knows, if they look into and think about the matter, that we probably waste enough in Canada every year to make a very large contribution to the wealth of the country; we waste in many way things which are useful, simply throwing them into the waste heap. What we want is to get concentrated upon all those points the research power of the country, to get it organized, to have it, as it were, mobilized, and to get our attention fixed upon the utilization of waste products which are of inestimable value when chemical and scientific research finds out their qualities and their adaptations, and is able to put them within the power of productive enterprise, so that they become utilized by our manufacturers and confer great wealth and advantage upon the country. In all parts of this country there are more or less of these research resources. Our universities are in part equipped for them-some of them very well equipped; chemical societies and associations are doing their part of .the work; individual chemists are at work, and I have in view the idea of linking up to a certain extent with the Bureau of Information these sources of research, having them co-ordinated so that they shall not be overlapping, having some directive power given to them so that when these questions come up, they may undergo the analysis of a competent directive body or committee that shall apportion these different items of research to the university or the laboratory which is best fitted for them. The universities are strongly disposed to enter into a co-operative effort in that respect. We have been in consultation for the last year more or less, and I
think it is possible to work out a not very expensive plan by which research work in connection with the different universities of this country, the Chemical Association of Canada, and other laboratory or individual research sources, may be undertaken in such a way that it will enure very much to the benefit of Canada from an industrial point of vieV. Manufacturers' associations in this country are very much in favour of that co-operative work, and I hope to be able with a part of this vote to assist in that object. Those are the points with reference to which the vote will chiefly be used.


William Stewart Loggie: I would like to add a word or two to what the minister has said, and I appreciate the points that he has raised. With regard to the dye question, if the minister could in any way hurry up the matter, I am sure it would be in the interest of the commercial life of Canada. I know that if to-day you endeavour to place an order in the textile trade, the trade will ask you, say on an order for cheap flannel, for ten cents per yard extra if it is to be died navy blue; the Dominion Textile 'Company will tell you that they cannot give you navy blue prints at all, so that it is very important in the interest of the future of Canada that we should be able to provide those dyes within this Empire, and in Canada if that be possible. It may be that the consumption in Canada is not sufficiently large for us to engage in the manufacture of those special dyes, but we may be able to receive them from the United Kingdom or from the United States. We should, however, encourage the manufacture in Canada of those chemical dyes that are required by our textile manufacturers, and I heartily congratulate the minister on the undertaking that he has brought before us.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think my hon. friend has opened up a very wide field and one which will prove of very great advantage, but there is something which is as important, if not more important, in regard to everything he has stated just now, and that is technical education. What my hon. friend undertakes to do will certainly produce very good results, but he will find himself balked at almost every step by the want of technical knowledge amongst the population. The Germans have undoubtedly been ahead of every other nation in the application of chemistry to industry; that seems to have been their specialty; in that they have excelled even the Americans, who are supposed to be

'the most inventive of all nations. I think the chemical manufacture of dyes was invented by a Frenchman, but it is now exclusively the property of the Germans, and they have applied it to industry in a manner which has not been approached, much less excelled, by any other nation. It has been largely due to their system of technical education. It seems to me that if my hon. friend would supplement what he has done by some scheme of technical education, he would do a great deal toward what he has in mind. I am afraid my hon. friend will have a long time to wait before we have these things in Canada. They are the result of the spread of knowledge, and in that respect we can learn a useful lesson from Germany.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the hon. minister
anything to tell us as to the personnel of this commission?


George Eulas Foster: I am not able
to give the names to-day. I have selected the men, and their names, I suppose, are now before the Governor General, but it is not possible to give those names until the Order in Council has been passed. On Monday, however, I shall be able to give the names.
Compassionate allowance to the widow of the late James Barr, deputy grain inspector, who was killed while in the performance of his duties at Canadian Pacific elevator " D," Fort William, Ontario, $1,000.


George Eulas Foster: This was a particularly hard case. Mr. Barr was for a long time in the employ of the Government as Deputy Grain Inspector. He lost his life by falling and being sucked into the elevator. He leaves a widow and three small children. The usual-or what seems to be the usual-gratuity of $1,000 is recommended here.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The Minister of Trade and Commerce told us that on any item of his Estimates we might bring up any subject relating to his department. As this is the last item in these Supplementary Estimates, I desire to ask a question relating to the steamer service between the mainland and tne Magdalen islands. A letter that I have received from an old friend in the Magdalen islands, the collector of customs, informs me that the Lady Sybil, a steamer built some years ago expressly for the route between Pictou, Prince Edward Island and Magdalen islands, had been sold. I do not know whether she has

been sold to the Admiralty or to some private firm. She rendered excellent service on this route. The statement is made that she is to be replaced by the Amelia. This the people of the Magdalen Islands can hardly believe. Fifteen years ago the Amelia was on the route and was classed as a very inferior steamer. The steamer was partly wrecked, and a number of those on board perished, amongst them the owner himself, Mr. Leslie, formerly member of the local Legislature for the Magdalen Islands. The steamer was afterwards completely discarded; and now we are told that this old steamer is to replace the Lady Sybil which w.as certainly a credit to the department and to the service. I would urge upon the minister, before signing any contract-or, if the contract is signed before paying any subsidy-to have a proper inspection of the vessel. The route is a rough one, as the hon. minister, who comes from the Maritime Provinces, knows, and it will be dangerous for people to travel on that steamer unless repairs have been made which make her practically a new steamer.


George Eulas Foster: The Lady Sybil was bought out from the service. I do not know who bought her or where she went. I imagine she commanded a good price and that her owner-^and operator for a number of years-came to the conclusion that he could not have a better time than this to dispose of his property. Last year we only kept her by great persuasion as the owner wished to sell her then. But this year no persuasion could persuade, and she is gone. The difficulty was to get any vessel for the route, and for a time I thought we should have to borrow from the Marine and Fisheries the Princess-


Rodolphe Lemieux: She is a good steamer.


George Eulas Foster: However, the
Amelia, though out of sight, has not died. Or, at any rate, I believe she has made a complete and successful resurrection. She has been re-formed and re-fitted, and I am told that thus transformed she will be perfectly safe and a perfectly good vessel for^ the route. It was on these conditions that I entered into tire contract for the service.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Under Captain McClure?


George Eulas Foster: I do not remember the name of the captain.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it the same contractor as in the case of the Lady Sybil?
SiT GEORGE FOSTER: I think not. They are Halifax people, who had the vessel and who have rebuilt her and have put her into what they say is excellent shape. She will be inspected, of course, and if she does not pass the inspection she will not go on. But this seemed the best we could get, and from the information we received I think she will perform the service all right.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That being the case, I have nothing more to say,	but I
would urge upon my hon. friend to have his eye upon that inspection, because it would be a very serious thing if any accident should happen. Mr. Leslie lost the contract with the Department of Trade and Commerce because he maintained the service with the Amelia, and Captain McClure from Pictou secured the Lady Sybil, which was specially built for that route. The Amelia was discarded and a new contract was entered upon. I hope that my hon. friend will see that the inspection is a good one.
Labour - Industrial Disputes Investigation Act-further amount required, $5,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will my hon. friend
explain what became of his Bill amending the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act?


Mr. CROTHERS:: I had a draft Bill prepared about a year ago. A large number of copies were struck off and sent to persons throughout the country who were thought to be specially interested in the proposed amendments. My hon. friend got a copy.
I thought that we were suggesting some very practical amendments, which, in the interest of all concerned, should be enacted into' law, but the Bill was not introduced this session owing to the fact that some of the suggested amendments were considered controversial and their consideration would take up a good deal of time. I think I asked my hon. friend and some other3 whether or not they would agree to let the Bill go through with certain amendments, striking out any that they had serious objection to. An arrangement of that kind, however, was not effected, and the Bill was allowed to stand in order not to take up time which it was thought should be devoted to other purposes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How does the question
stand with regard to the fair wage clause
in munition contracts? I see there has been quite an agitation in the country to extend the fair wage clause to the munition works.	.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The provisions of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act have been extended to all industries in Canada manufacturing munitions of any kind. One reason why I am asking for an additional $5,000 is because I anticipate a larger number of boards of conciliation than there have been heretofore. The fair wage clause, I understand, is not being put in munition contracts. I took the matter up as soon as the war broke out, and I thought I had made an arrangement that such a clause should be inserted in every such contract. In fact, I was promised that that would be done. It was said, however, that a great many of these contracts were executed hurriedly in different parts of the country, sometimes by telegram, and it was .not thought practicable to have such clauses put in the contracts. Wherever any dispute has arisen, however, as to wages, or hours, or any other labour conditions, we have inquired into them and effected an adjustment, I think, in every case. There is not that advantage that some seem to think there is in having this clause in the contracts. In the case of the construction of a public building a schedule is prepared by the department, and contractors tendering for the job are supplied with copies of this schedule, so that they know exactly the wages they will have to pay to the different craftsmen employed in erecting the building. But where it is not known where the contract is to be executed; where it is not known whether the tender accepted will be from Vancouver or from Halifax, a' general clause is inserted simply requiring that the contractor, in executing the contract, shall pay the wages current in the district in which the contract is being executed. If any dispute arises in such cases we make investigation as to what the current rates are in the district. Although there is no such clause in the contracts for munitions, we take the same course; where any dispute arises we make an investigation as to the current rates of wages in the district where the contract is being carried out. So that we are taking the same course as if a clause of that kind were in the contract, and it works out just as advantageously to the workingman as if this clause had been inserted.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Can the minister tell me if Mr. Dubreuil, fair wage officer, has been replaced?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: A gentleman named
N.arcisse Arcand, of Montreal, was appointed a few weeks ago.


William Erskine Knowles: Can the hon. minister give us any information as to the views of Mr. Lloyd -George on the question of the insertion of the fair wage clause in munition contracts? Is it true that Mr. Lloyd George intimated his willingness that the fair wage clause should be inserted in these contracts?
Mr. CROTHERS': I had no correspondence with Mr. Lloyd George. I understood the Prime Minister to say in the House that Lloyd George was not in favour of, having these clauses put in the contracts here in Canada.


William Erskine Knowles: Does the minister give the committee to understand that Mr. Lloyd George is opposed to having this clause inserted in the munition contracts?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is my recollection of what the Prime Minister said in the House here. I am not quite sure that 1 am right in that, but that is my recollection.


William Erskine Knowles: My recollection is not the same. The minister follows these things closely; surely he is not depending for his information on what the Prime Minister or any one else says in the House.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I know that the Imperial Munitions Board, after inquiring into the matter, and after having, as I understand, some correspondence with Mr. Lloyd George, decided not to put in these clauses. I have that direct from the board.


William Erskine Knowles: In connection with people in works carried on by the Dominion ' Government employees, I think the minister was in the House when that matter was discussed. Perhaps the Minister of Labour would give an expression of his opinion on the question which I raised this afternoon of compensation to workmen employed on Government railways and in the Government elevators, workshops, etc., for injuries received in their employment.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I quite agree with my
hon. friend that those in the employ of this Government should be treated as generously as workmen are treated by private employers. As to the suggestion that they

should be paid according to the Compensation Act in force in each particular province, you might find that in one province a man could not recover under the Compensation Act of that province. The Ontario Act has been freed from any objection of that kind but there might be trouble in some other provinces. I think that the basis should be the salary or wages that a man is getting. My hon. friend spoke of the cost of living being higher in the extreme western provinces than in the East, and suggested that that might be taken into account. No rule has been adopted; each case has been considered on its own merits. I do not know of any case where a man has been injured or killed in the exercise of his duty where compensation has not been made if the facts were made known to us.


William Erskine Knowles: That may be true in
the case of death, that a compassionate allowance. is always voted; but I refer to cases of injury, such as the loss of fingers.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not remember
anything of that kind.


William Erskine Knowles: The-Workmen's Compensation Act would cover that, and my argument is that the workman should receive as generous treatment from the Government for injury as if he were working for some other person.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I quite agree with my hon. friend.
Quebec Harbour-River St. Charles-improvements to navigation, $700,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the
nature of the work you are doing in the St. Charles river?


Mr. ROGERS:: This amount of $700,000
is required to carry on improvements, under contract with Messrs. Quinlan and Robertson. They comprise the construction of a concrete dam 1,600 feet long of an average height of 20 feet, and two locks, respectively 450 feet and 350 feet long, by 60 feet wide at the entrance walls, each lock having 15 feet of water on the sill at low water. The dam will have a super-structure of two lines of interlocked sheet piles, the whole hack filled with dredged material from the bed of the river. A sluiceway will be placed in the dam with gates to control the water in a pool to be created by the dam. An Order in Council was passed on the 12th of March, 1913, authorizing the .acceptance of the tender of Messrs. Quinlan and Robertson, of Montreal, for the construction of two

locks and dam in Quebec harbour, involving at the unit prices quoted therein an approximating expenditure of $1,873.80.


Wilfrid Laurier: How far has the work advanced?


Robert Rogers: Just about one-third of
the work has been done.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is the dam
completed, or does everything go on together?


Robert Rogers: The dam goes rather
ahead of the lock, and the dam is not quite completed yet.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is it expected to have it completed during this season?


Robert Rogers: Yes. The dam will be
completed, but I do not know that all of the work will be completed.


Wilfrid Laurier: This season?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: And the whole work will be completed next season?


Robert Rogers: I am satisfied it will.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was told by a Quebecker-I do not vouch for the statement myself-that the effect of the dam and the locks would be to flood parts of the riverside, and that the city of Quebec, as a result, would have to change its sewerage system. Is there any correspondence between the department and the city of Quebec on that subject, and if a change has to be made in the sewerage system, will the cost fall upon the Government or upon the city? Perhaps that is a matter of detail with which my hon. friend is not familiar, but it was told to me by a gentleman who is not opposed to the project. He stated that the river St. Charles works were of such a character that the city would ultimately have to pay a very large sum of money to divert the present sewerage system from its present location.


Robert Rogers: I have some knowledge of the points the hon. member has mentioned. As a result of this work the question of the sewage of Quebec has been taken up by the engineer of Quebec, and the engineer of the Department of Public Works, and, while I am not clear as to the exact details, I understand that they have arrived at a solution of the matter, the cost, I think, being divided.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Between the city and the department?	.


Robert Rogers: Between the city and the department. I have not heard of any differences or conflicting views on the part of the engineers. I have not before me the exact arrangement, but I would be very glad to furnish it to my right hon. friend if he so desires.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has the department not 'had the same trouble at Winnipeg in consequence of the dam at St. Andrew's rapids?


Robert Rogers: We have had to a greater or less extent. We had to do a considerable amount of dredging by reason of the filling in at Red river, and in connection with the sewage, too, to some extent. We have had practically the same difficulty there; the Government did the dredging and relieved the conditions.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would be interested to know what is the arrangement which has been arrived at by the engineer of the city of Quebec and the engineer of the department. To. a layman like myself there seems to be no solution possible. The sewage cannot be diverted; it has to go into the St. Charles river because of the conformation of the land on which the city rests. The flow of the tide being obstructed, as it must be by the dam, 'as stated in the memorandum read by my hon. friend, a pool will be created which must collect all the sewage and all the mud that comes up from the river. I do not know how this can be overcome in any way.


Robert Rogers: I will be very glad to send the correspondence and everything we have in the department pertaining to the matter to my hon. friend.


John Gillanders Turriff: Where the Government undertakes such a work as this and interferes with the sewage of a large city like Quebec, on what grounds does it expect that city, or any other city in a similar position, to pay part of the extra cost caused by the action of the Government? It does not seem to me to be fair to the city.


Robert Rogers: Of course, the ultimate completion of the work will be a great improvement in the district. It is a work which is regarded as being of great advantage to. the city of Quebec.
Air. A. W. CHISHOLA1:	There is an
item of $1,200 in the Main Estimates for repairs to the wharf at Broad Cove Marsh.

I would like to know the nature of this work.


Robert Rogers: The amount of $1,200 is asked for by District Engineer Bernasconi to repair the wharf which was seriously damaged by a severe northwesterly storm. Assistant District Engineer MeKean reported on October 9, 1915, as follows:
On October 2nd last I made an examination of the breakwater at Broad Cove Marsh, Inverness county, and found that it had been seriously damaged by a severe north-westerly storm and extra high tide which occurred previous to my visit. On August 20th last, I reported on this work as requiring $500 to place it in good condition. Now it will require $1,200 made up as follows: 320 cubic yards stone ballast, $192; 6,000 feet B.M. 3-inch covering, $150; 1,000 feet B.M. curb timber, $30; 3.000 fenders, $90; 400 lineal feet logs, $80; 50 piles, $200; 400 stringers, $80; 200 braces, $40;	500 pounds iron, $25 ; labour, $200 ;
omissions and contingencies, $113; total,


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Has any part of that amount been spent yet?


Robert Rogers: Nothing has been spent
yet.


William Chisholm: I would like the minister to see that this work is done in the proper season. It appears that all the repairs in the county of Inverness are attended to in the fall of the year. It is an eyesore to see men repairing public works of this kind in November, when the climatic conditions are so bad. They cannot do the work effectively, and the result is that the department does not get value for its money. Very often the men cannot work more than five or six hours a day, and sometimes they cannot even work one hour a day. This occurred last year and the year before; I speak from . personal observation. I approve) of these repairs. They are very necessary because the wharf is in very bad shape.


Robert Rogers: The deputy informs me
that the work will go on as soon as possible.


William Chisholm: There is an item for
Inverness Harbour, $15,000. Is it the intention to spend this amount this year, and what is the nature of the work?


Robert Rogers: I do not expect that we
shall find it necessary to go on with that this year. .


John Gillanders Turriff: What does the minister propose to do in connection with Victoria harbour? There has been an investigation before the Public Accounts Committee, and

from the evidence adduced it would appear that over-payments have been made to a considerable extent, and that claims are in from the contractors for still larger amounts. According to the evidence given by the officers of the department, the amount of rock taken out was many times greater than the amount of rock there was to be taken out. I would like to know what the minister proposes to do in connection with that work.


Robert Rogers: If my hon. friend has
followed the evidence of the Public Accounts Committee he will have a knowledge of the facts. The engineer gave estimates for a greater quantity of rock to be taken out than had actually been taken out; at least that is the charge. So far as that is concerned, we are entirely protected. In the department we have ample funds in the shape of drawbacks and deposits to cover the loss. We have withheld a considerable sum of money and there will not be the loss of a dollar to the country in connection with the matter which has been before the Public Accounts Committee. When we first heard of the possibility of there being an over-estimate, Mr. Valiquette was sent out to British Columbia to investigate, and he did so. He reported that he did not think there had been any over-payment. There was still some doubt, and Mr. St. Laurent was sent out to make a further investigation. He went very carefully into all the circumstances, and his report went to show that there was a certain over-payment in connection with rock. But, whatever the over-payment, the department is amply protected, and will continue to be protected against over-payment on every classification.


John Gillanders Turriff: What amount of rock will be paid for?


Robert Rogers: We have turned the matter over to the Exchequer Court, to adjust the differences between the engineers.
Public Works-French River-extension of breakwater pier, $2,000.
Mr. MoKENZIE: There are so many French rivers in Nova Scotia that I am wondering whether this is the one in my county.


Robert Rogers: Yes, it is. This vote of $2,000 is required for the construction of a breakwater 100 feet long, and from 16 to 20 feet wide. The district engineer estimates the cost as follows: 16,200 feet of cribwork at. 10 cents, $1,620.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is that to stand tor this year?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Will the same remark apply to the wharf at Plaster Mines?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is it proposed to go on with the boat harbour at Cape Dauphin this year?


Robert Rogers: We do not expect to go on with that this year.
Victoria harbour improvements, $1,000,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the proposed total expenditure at Victoria Harbour?
iMr. ROGERS: The contract with Sir John Jackson for the breakwater amounts to $1,797,000. The work has not been completed yet.


John Gillanders Turriff: I think it was originally proposed to spend a larger amount than that for the harbour improvements there.


Robert Rogers: Besides the contract with Sir John Jackson there is the contract with Grant, Smith and Company, Limited, and Maedonnell for $2,444,000, for the construction of wharves.
Progress reported.


Robert Laird Borden: I believe it is the desire of members on both sides of the House that we should not sit this evening.
Several hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House adjourned at 6 p.m.
Monday, May 8, 1916.