1916-02-21

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House of Commons debates

[Stage Direction]
Speaker: Hon. Albert Sevigny.
Monday, February 21, 1916.

[Stage Direction]
Report of the Militia Council for the year ended March 31, 1915- Sir Sam Hughes.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day :
Mi. MARCIL:: On the 14th of February I inquired of the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Minister of Militia, as to disturbances among the soldiers at Camp-bellton, which I understood, from a paragraph in the Campbellton Graphic, had taken place. The right hon. the Prime Minister replied that he would have the matter looked into, and on the 16th instant the Minister of Militia said:
The hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. March) brought up a matter concerning Campbellton to which I referred yesterday. I have the facts, as stated by the officer in command, Colonel Mersereau, who says that on no occasion since the troops have been in Campbell-ton have there been more than four men locked up or impounded, or under supervision, in any one day, out of 290 men present. I merely add without comment that we hear all sorts of stories about the volunteers.
I have now before me a copy of the Campbellton Graphic of the 17th instant, containing an apology for. the statement it made, and, as a matter of justice to the soldiers, and in the interest of fair play, I think I should read this to the House, as well as a letter from the Mayor of Campbell ton on the subject. Campbellton has done very well in recruiting; several hundred men have enlisted, not only from Restigouche, but from the adjoining counties of Gaspe and Bonaventure, and practically every parish has supplied men.
60 [DOT]
The apology in the Campbellton Graphic reads:
We wish to apologize to the large majority of the members of "A" Company of the 132nd Battalion for a statement which appeared in our columns last week. This was to the effect that over twenty members of the Company had been lodged in the guard room for disorderly conduct. We may state that the information was given us, and was general about town at that time.
We are glad to learn from Capt. McKay that only four men were in the guard room at one time and these were the ones which made all the trouble. The members of "A" Company as a whole, are considered a fine lot of boys, but as we stated last week, there are always a few who forget themselves. We are glad to know that the number was less than reported, and cheerfully make this correction. We hope A Company will keep up its good reputation of being the best soldiers in the Battalion, and that the unruly ones will be shown that it is an insult to the whole company to create such disturbances. It is also the duty of the sober boys to give every assistance to the officers and police in bringing to justice the parties who are supplying the soldiers with liquor.
The letter from the Mayor of Campbellton reads:
Campbellton, N.B.,
February 16th, 1916.
Hon. Charles Marcil,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir: The St. John Telegraph of the 15th instant quotes you as havipg made the statement that you were informed that some twenty-five soldiers in Campbellton, N.B., had caused a disturbance similar to that in Calgary.
It affords me considerable pleasure to be able to inform you that there is absolutely no truth in that statement. At no time since the 132nd Battalion began to recruit have there been any disturbances of any nature whatsoever, and to say that there has been rioting or other similar disturbances is an utter absurdity and a grave injustice to the young men whom we all should honour.
The members of "A" Company of the 132nd Battalion are as orderly a body ot men as you will find in any barracks in Canada, and Campbellton is proud of them.
I trust, therefore, that in all fairness to these young men, you will, on the floor of the House, inform the members that you were mis-informed in regard to the soldiers in Campbellton, and that there is no truth in the report to which you gave publicity on the above mentioned occasion.



Thanking you in anticipation of a compliance with my request, and trusting that I may have the pleasure of reading in the papers that you have righted a wrong which you had unwittingly done, I am.
Yours very truly,
A. A. Andrews, Mayor.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Bill No. 15, respecting the Pacific Northern and Omineca Railway Company-Mr. Green-in Committee.
On section 1-time for commencement and completion:
Mr. PUGSLEY:: The time for the commencement of construction and for completion seem to be one and the same the company may begin the construction and complete the road in five years. I do not recall having seen such a provision in any railway Bill before. Is there a special reason for this peculiar provision?


Mr. GREEN:: This is simply the renewal of a charter granted last session.


William Pugsley: Then there is no need of this Bill, for if the Bill of last session granted five years, the company has still four years of unexpired time.


Robert Francis Green: If there is any question on the part of the hon. member, I see no reason why it should not be changed. I move that the Bill be amended to provide that construction shall begin in two years and the road completed in five years.
Bill stands.
Bill No. 4, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway Company-Mr. Bradbury-in Committee.


Mr. BRADBURY:: This is simply an extension of time in relation to a charter granted to build a piece of road between lake Winnipeg and lake Manitoba from Grosse lie to Grand Rapids. The Canadian Northern is the successor to an amalgamation of companies.


William Pugsley: What is the object of
the road?


George Henry Bradbury: To give railway accommodation to the people at the head of lake Winnipeg. We have wanted it for years and we want it badly now. A part
(Mr. March.]
of the road was built-the Grosse lie part and this is an extension.


William Pugsley: Does this road go up
by Crooked lake where the lumber mills are?


George Henry Bradbury: No, there is no
Crooked lake on this line. It runs from Grosse He between lake Winnipeg and lake Manitoba, in a northerly direction to the head of the lake. It touches lake Winnipeg at Sturgeon bay, about half-way between Grosse lie and the head of the lake.
Bill reported.
\
Bill No. 5, respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company-Mr. North-rup-in Committee.
On section 3-limitation:


William Pugsley: Can the promoter of this Bill state whether these lines come under the general security held by the Government?


Mir. MORPHY:: I think this matter was mentioned in committee and an answer given in the affirmative by the persons promoting the Bill.


William Pugsley: I think it ought to be provided in the Bill itself that these lines, when _ constructed, should be included in and covered by the securities which the Government holds. A mere verbal understanding would' not accomplish that; it would have to be done by express legislation. I understand that the chairman of the committee is not present; perhaps the Bill had better stand in order that the matter may be considered.
Section stands.
Bill stands.
Bill No. 11, respecting the British American Nickel 'Corporation, Limited-Mr. Northrup-in Committee.


Mr. MACDONALD:: The question ot
nickel is a matter which is discussed very frequently in the country. I should like to know what corporation this is, where it operates, and by whom it is controlled. Is it a Canadian corporation, operating with Canadian capital?


Mr. NORTHRUP:: This is a company which has been in operation for years. The Bill merely gives it the right to have twenty directors, and provides that the majority of the directors shall be British subjects, and that they may appoint an

executive committee. If the hon. gentleman wishes any further information, we had better let the Bill stand. I will give him full particulars later.


Mr. MURPHY:: Is the company incorporated by statute, or by letters patent?


William Barton Northrup: I cannot tell my hon. friend that.


Charles Murphy: Let it stand.
Bill stands.
The following Bills were considered in Committee and reported, without discussion:
Bill No. 3, respecting the Burrard Inlet Tunnel and Bridge Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 7, respecting the Farn'ham and Granby Railway Company of Canada.- Mr. Douglas.	,
Bill No. 14, respecting the Central Western Canada Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 16, -respecting the Quebec, Montreal and Southern Railway Company.
-Mr. Lemieux.



SECOND READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. COCKSHUTT moved the second reading of Bill No. 26, respecting the corporation of the city of Brantford. He said: This Bill seeks to transfer to the corporation of the city of Brantford, under commission, rights granted by this Parliament to the Grand Valley Railway Company in the following statutes: 1900, chap. 73; 1902, chap. 91; 1906, chap. 102; 1907, chap. 90. The facts are that the Grand Valley Railway Company, which operated the street railway of the city of Brantford, and the radial railway extending to Paris and Galt, went into liquidation -and the railway was sold under the hammer. The city of Brantford acquired its own street railway and the adjunct just outside the city, and it has been operating it for the past twelve months under license. It is now sought to transfer to the commission, to be elected in the manner set forth in the schedule, the rights granted by this Parliament to the Grand Valley Railway Company.
William Pugsley: For some years the Ontario Government has been continuously represented before committees of this House contending that Parliament had no right to interfere with the operation of purely local railways. I should like to know whether any such point has been raised on behalf of the Ontario Government in respect of this line, which is essentially a
60i
local line, as I understand-simply -a street railway having connection with one or two adjoining towns. Not even by the highest flight of imagination can it be supposed to be a work for the general advantage of Canada.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: The line has already been declared a work for the general advantage of Canada in the Acts I have enumerated. No question has been raised of any infringement of provincial rights, and I cannot see how one could be raised, because this is an old charter given by this Parliament long before the Ontario Government took that stand. We are now asked simply to confer on the commission powers that have been vested in a railway board, subject to the Railway Commission.


William Pugsley: I understand that the
city of Brantford is not proposing to operate under the old Grand Valley charter, but has acquired the property itself, as it might acquire any other property; and it own-s that property and -also owns what is known as the Brantford Street railway. I assume from what my hon. friend says that it would be proper for the city of Brantford to go to the Provincial Legislature to get authority to operate this purely local railway. We in this Parliament ought to have some rule which would guide us in respect to all theke -matters. I doubt very much if this Parliament has authority to confer upon the city of Brantford the right to operate the street railway. I think that right should be granted by the Provincial Legislature. But if the Government of Ontario has not raised any question I do not see why I should press the matter.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I suppose that, whether the Ontario Government has any objection or not, we ought to be careful not to exceed our jurisdiction. The point of view put forward by the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt), as I understand it, is this: that, inasmuch as those undertakings have been declared by tne Parliament of Canada to be works for the general advantage of Canada, they are therefore subject to the jurisdiction of this Parliament, and that Parliament has exercised its jurisdiction accordingly. He puts forward the view, and the Bill puts forward the view, that if the city of Brantford wishes to obtain power to operate those street railways, so declared to be works for the general advantage of Canada, it must come to this Parliament. I should think it proper, under the circumstances, that

the Bill he given the second reading, and that the committee to which it is . referred should examine the question of jurisdiction, and ascertain the opinion of the Department of Justice with regard to the jurisdiction of Pi.rliament, which might be reported to this House. I agree with the suggestion of my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) that notice should be given to the Attorney General of the province of Ontario in order that he might come before the committee and urge the objections, if any, which the Government of the province might offer to any action on the part of this Parliament in respect to the matter. -


Mr. NESBITT:: Just to clear this matter up, may I ask the hon. member for Brantford if the Grand Valley railway was chartered toy the Dominion, or was the Brantford Street railway chartered by the Dominion?


William Foster Cockshutt: The Grand Valley
railway was chartered by the' Dominion, and the company acquired the street railway as well as the radials, taking over the running powers as well as the construction.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, and referred to Select Standing Committee on Railways, Canals, and Telegraph Lines.
Mr. MORPHY moved the second reading of Bill No. 31, to incorporate the Eastern Canadian Union Conference Corporation of Seventh Day Adventists. He said: The Bill is more or less like the ordinary Bill to incorporate, by -way of a merger, several branches of a religious denomination, under the name of the Eastern Canadian Union Conference Corporation of Seventh Day Adventists. The parties who are to be the headk of the corporation are named in Section 1, and the corporation itself is for the purpose, not only of constituting the branches of this particular re-4 p.m. ligious denomination into one consolidated body, "but of giving them the usual power of holding lands and disposing of them.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	What was the revenue for the present fiscal year to January 31, 1916, from special taxes?

2.	What was the revenue received for the same period from stamps, proprietary drugs and from liquors, respectively?
3.	And from all other sources exclusive of the ordinary postal revenues?


Mr. BLONDIN:: 1.	Customs:	from additional customs
duties (war tax), $19,466,035.65.
Finance: from tax on circulation of chartered banks, under Section 3 of the Special War Revenue Act, 1915, $1,028,707.28; from tax on income of trust and loan companies, under Section 4 of the Special War Revenue Act, 1915, to February 111, 1915, $258,973.40; from tax on insurance companies, under Section 5 of the Special War Revenue Act, 1915, $352,423.39; total, $1,640,104.07.
Inland, revenue: $1,166,156.09.
2.	Inland revenue: proprietary medicines, $223,038.60; war tax (estimated), $56,076.30; total, $279,114.90. Liquors, $6,115,412.29; war tax (estimated), $266,163.29; total, $6,381,575.58.
Inland revenue:	stamps,	$617,096.85;
railroads, steamships, embossed cheques, $549,059.24.
3.	Customs: customs duties, not including war tax, duties on drugs or liquors, $56,003,500.43; customs storage charges, $7,292.88; proceeds from sales of unclaimed goods, $3,259.96; -seizures, $217,028(60; casual revenue, $1,364.22; total, $56,232,446.09.


CIVIL SERVICE APPOINTMENTS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: How many appointments of civil servants have been made by the present Administration under the provisions of section 21 of the Civil Service Act?


Mr. BLONDIN:: Agriculture	
Commission of Conservation
External Affairs	
Governor General's Secretary
House of Commons	
Indian Affairs	 [DOT] - [DOT] - [DOT]
Interior	
Inland Revenue	
Justice	
Labour	'	
Library of Parliament . . ..
Mines	7	
Marine and Fisheries	
Militia and Defence	
Naval Service	
Post Office	 [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT][DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT]
Privy Council	
Public Works [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] . . * * Printing and Stationery. . . .
Railways and Canals	
R.N.W.M. Police	
Senate	
Secretary of State	
Trade and Commerce	
Without Compe- Competition tition.
3	29
	5
	1
	1
21	2
	3
lS	ii
1	17
	12
	1
1	
18	13
2	4
	9
4	2
1	5
. ,	1
13	28
	1
2	2
	1
	1
1	7
	. 3
82	159

It will be seen from the above statement that eighty-two of these appointments were made after the position had been thrown open to public competition. It was found necessary, however, to resort to Section 21 in order to make the appointment by reason of the successful candidate being over age or not resident in Canada for the required period of three years.


MEMBERS OP PARLIAMENT IN MILITARY SERVICE.
*Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Do the members of the House of Commons and the Senate, who are officers of the volunteer forces, draw their pay as officers and their indemnity as members of Parliament at the same time?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Members of Parliament, the same as all other citizens, on appointment as officers of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, are entitled to the pay and allowances of their-rank. Many of them do not draw pay, and others contribute it to the various Patriotic and Red Cross funds, but all that is according to their personal wishes.
- CANADIAN OFFICERS IN ENGLAND.


Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	How' many officers are there in England to-day at Shorncliffe, Bramshott and other camps where the Canadians are located, and who are drawing pay from the Canadian Government, but are not attached to any regiment, battalion, battery, or other branch of the service? -
2.	How much did the Government pay for the use of land on which the camp at Vernon was located this summer?
3.	To whom was the money paid?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	All officers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force serving in England either belong to a unit of the Canadian Expeditionary Force or are attached thereto.
2.	Nothing.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


MAX LASOSKI.
Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	Has the Immigration Department at Quebec had a German named Max Lasoski in its employ ?
2.	If so, is he still in the employ of the Government, or has he been transferred elsewhere in Canada?
3.	What was his salary, and does he still receive such salary in full or in part?
4.	Has the department received complaints that the said Max Lasoski took photographs of the port of Quebec, and of the vessels that carried soldiers across the ocean?


Mr. ROCHE:: Max Von Laszewski, born in Germany and naturalized in Canada in
1896, entered the service of the Immigration Branch at Quebec as an interpreter on April 30,v 1911, at a salary of $700 per annum, which was increased to $900 per annum from November 15, 1912. On September 14, 1915, he was allowed to return to his home at Moose Creek, Ontario, upon the understanding that from September 1, 1915, and until he was again on active duty his pay would be $50 per month. On February 10, 1916, he was notified that owing to - the necessity of curtailing expenditure his services would be discontinued from February 28, 1916.


MRS. BERLINGTON HAM.
Mr. DEMERS:: -
1.	Is there a lady named Mrs. Berlington Ham employed at Quebec, as an Immigration Agent?
2.	If so, what are her duties, and has she anything to do with the civil inspection of immigrants?
3.	Has the Minister of the Interior received any complaints regarding the said Mrs. Berlington Ham?


William Roche: 1 and 2. Mrs. Berlington Ham is national ports secretary of the Young Women's Christian Association of Canada, but is not an employee of the Government, and has nothing to do with the civil inspection of immigrants.
No. 3. No.


LIEUT-COL. SABOURIN.
Mr. MICHAUD:: Is N. A. Sabourin, M.D., of St. Johns, Quebec, an officer on full pay of His Majesty's Army? If so, what is the amount of his pay?


Samuel Hughes: tieut.-Colonel Sabourin has been detailed for duty at the Military hospital, St. Johns, Que., with the pay of his rank in the Active Militia, i.e., $5 per diem.


MR. DE WITT FOSTER.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	Is Mr. A. De Witt Foster, former member for Kings. N.S., employed by the Government or by this Parliament in any capacity?
2.	Does he enjoy any privileges in the present Parliament building, and has he a box in the Parliamentary post office?
3.	By whom was he recommended to he allowed access to the Parliament building?


Robert Laird Borden: The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the others is that Mr. Foster enjoys the same privileges as any other citizen of Canada who is not a member of Parliament. He has no box in the parliamentary post office.


MR. J. E. LAREAU.
*Mr. L. J. GAUTHIER:: 
Mr. HAZEN:: There is no parson of the name of J. E. Lareau in the employment of the Government . as inspector of hay at Montreal. There is a person of that name employed by the British Government as inspector at Montreal.


PURCHASE OF SS. HOCHELAGA.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	From whom was the steamer Hochelaga bought by the Government?
2.	How much was paid' for her?
3.	How much was spent on improvements?
4.	When was she purchased?
5.	How long has she been laid up since her purchase ?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Dropped.
2.	$70,000.
3.	$22,642.18.
4.	31st July, 1915.
5.	The fitting out took 18 days. The vessel was in service all fall; not being required during the winter months she was laid up in Halifax on 20th December, 1915.


WAR SUPPLIES-HORSES FOR FRENCH GOVERNMENT.
*Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	Where is the French Government purchasing horses in Canada?
2.	What are the names and addresses of the parties representing the French Government in this matter?


Robert Laird Borden: We are endeavouring to procure this information. I understand that the Hudson Bay Company have purchased some supplies for the French Government, but I am not quite sure as to the nature and extent of these. The officer connected with the purchase of horses, who was recently in Ottawa, is absent at the present time; but the information will be procured as soon as possible.


REMOUNTS FOR CANADIAN FORCES.
John Howard Sinclair: With reference to the statement made by the Prime Minister on February 14, inst., unrevised Hansard, page 795, referring to the purchase of remounts, why does not the Canadian Government purchase in Canada such horses as are required for the use of the Canadian Forces?


Robert Laird Borden: As already explained to the House, the Canadian Government made an arrangement by which the British Government should purchase all

horses required in the future for the Canadian forces, as well as for the British forces. Up to the time that this arrangement was made the Government of Canada had purchased in this country more horses than were required for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. The horses in excess of those actually required up to that time were handed over to the British Government under the arrangement, already explained to the House, and these will be accounted for by the British Government. The arrangement already made, and to which allusion has been made in the House, provides that the British Government shall in future purchase horses for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces as well as for the British forces. In addition to that, however, there will be required in 'Canada from time to time, for the training of our artillery and for other purposes, a certain number of horses which are not included in this arrangement, and these will be purchased by the Canadian Government. Furthermore, it is understood between the British Government and the Canadian Government that, in respect to future purchases, the British. Government will purchase in Canada at least as many horses as may'in the future be required for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. Looking to the necessities of the British Government in that regard, I have no doubt that a very much larger number of horses will be purchased in the future by the British Government than would be required to be purchased by the Canadian Government under the arrangement which was carried out during the first year of the war.


OPEN SEASON FOR LOBSTERS.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	What is the the date of the open season for lobsters in Northumberland straits, between Cape George and Malagash?
2.	Why is the season shorter in this particular district than in the district to the west of it?
3.	Have any requests or petitions been received asking for the lengthening of the season?
4.	Has any action been taken in regard to . these requests?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	April 26 to June 25, both days inclusive.
2.	This season applies as far west as River Philip.
3.	Yes, [DOT] one such petition was received over a year ago.
4.	The petition was carefully considered; but as the existing fishing season was that recommended by the Atlantic Committee

of the Advisory Board, after consideration of the report and recommendations of the Shellfish Commission of 1912-1913, it was not regarded as desirable to make the change asked for.


POTATO INSPECTORS.
Mr. BOULAY:: 1.	Has the Government appointed any potato inspectors since 1911? If so, how many?
2.	What are their names, their places of residence, and the salary paid to each of them?


Mr. HAZEN:: Mr. Fortier.-For a copy of the war orders given to the Montreal Street Railway Company.
Mr. Verville.-For a copy of all correspondence and telegrams exchanged between the Labour Department and the working men at Thetford mines prior, during, or after the last strike in that vicinity, and of all other papers relating thereto.
Mr. Gauvreau.-For a copy of a petition from the citizens of Louisville, requesting that L. F. Sanfagon be not dismissed from his position of postmaster of that town ; also of all letters sent by A. Bellemare, M.P., in connection with the dismissal of said L. F. Sanfagon and asking for such dismissal; and of all letters from the same A. Bellemare, M.P., recommending Chas. Ed. Lasage as postmaster in the place of the said L. F. Sanfagon.


PICTOU-PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND STEAMERS-HANDLING OF FREIGHT.
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
James Joseph Hughes: I have just come into
the Chamber, but I know the purport of this discussion. I heard the minister say that he did not think present conditions would continue very long. It is anticipated, -I know, that the car ferry will be in operation within a reasonable time, but I suppose the piers will not be ready by the opening of navigation this year.


John Douglas Hazen: We are speaking of winter navigation.
- Mr. HUGHES: Is the minister in a position to say what arrangement the Government is making or wnl make for transportation between the mainland and Prince Edward Island at the opening of navigation

this year until such time as the car ferry will be in operation?
* Mr. HAZEN: That matter has been and is engaging the attention of the Department of Trade and Commerce. I understand that arrangements have been made for a service that will, I trust, be satisfactory, during the period between the opening of navigation at Point du Chene and the time next summer when the car ferry will be in full operation.


James Joseph Hughes: Would the minister say when he expects the car ferry to be in operation?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot give my hon.
friend any definite statement in that regard. I understand it is the belief of the Railway Department that the car ferry will be in operation before the fall-some time during the summer.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister will agree with me that this was a case in which he was misled by his advisors in my constituency. Those who followed the explanation of the hon. minister have observed that his only excyse for the course taken was that the Longshoremen's Union had been organized only last summer. That excuse is not a good one. The minister has given the promise that in the event of the winter service between the two provinces being carried on next year as it is now, he would be disposed to consider favourably the matter of giving the contract for handling freight and coal to those to whom he ought to have given it this year, to the organized longshoreman, the people who are doing business of that kind at the port. My hon. friend admits that the department had an offer from this Longshoremen's Union. Had he communicated with the agent of the Department of Marine and Fisheries at Piotou he would have been informed that this union was an affiliation of the Longshoremen's Union in the city of St. John, with the union in the city of Halifax, and with the International Longshoremen's union. Hie would have been informed, also, that that union, as I have already stated, got all the work in connection with large shipments of lumber, with - large shipments made by the Nova Scotia Steel & Coal company to the Russian Government, and with shipments of important material which came from various other large industries. Somebody, however^ in the county of Pictou, who is handling the patronage along the lines so eloquently condemned by the hon. Minister
of Trade and Commerce the other night, said to my hon. friend: pay no attention to this Longshoremen's union, whose business it is to attend to this work; hand it over to this tailor, this monument builder, and this mason, because they are useful people when election time comes round. I am glad the hon. minister has been frank enough to say that if the opportunity comes again he will see that this difficulty is remedied. These longshoremen, who are devoted to the idea of labour union, and who have wives and families to. support, are walking the streets of this seaport town this winter because the men brought in from all over the country by this Unique trio to which I have referred are taking the bread out of their mouths. These men are not being given a chance to work simply because they are loyal to union principles. It was suggested to these men: we will give you work, but you must permit an intermediate rake-off of five cents a ton for these three men. They said, no; we will not do that; we will stand by our union. It was open to the minister, who could have cancelled the contract at any time, to give the work to the labour union of the town, the members of which were willing to do the work at the same figures as the trio to which I have referred are receiving to-day. In view of the evidence before us, and of the facts being conceded, I think it is only fair and proper that the minister should deal with this matter at once. During a period of two months more communication with Prince Edward Island will be carried on as it is at the present time, and these men, who make their living around the wharves, will be out of work unless the minister intervenes. I do trust that,'as a result of this discussion, the minister will take steps to remedy this injustice.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Edward Mortimer Macdonald: For a copy of all letters, petitions, papers, telegrams, tenders and other documents relating to the establishment of a rural mail route from Alma, through Sylvester and Loch Broom, and as to the closing of the post offices at Sylvester and Loch Broom.
He said: I desire to state briefly to the House the grievance of some six families in my county who have been deprived of any convenient mail service as the result of the establishment of the rural mail route referred to in the motion, which has resulted in the closing of these two post

offices. I wrote to the Postmaster General before the House met calling his attention to the effect of this change, and the minister replied that he would see that one of the offices, Sylvester, was opened. This has not been done, and I have been unable to get the matter dealt with .in accordance with the Postmaster General's assurance. We have had a great many rural mail routes established in my county, and I think that in quite a few instances there has been a disregard for the convenience of the public. This is only one of about half a dozen cases in which people have been deprived absolutely of mail convenience as the result of the establishment of rural mail routes. Just now when we are economizing, it would be well for the Postmaster General to balance the question of cost with the question of convenience. When the establishment of a rural mail route compels half a dozen families, or even three or four families, to go very long distances to get their mail, it is doubtful whether such a service should be established. The rural mail service in my county involves .an annual increased expense of $4,600, and in some cases there sems to be no justification for the establishment of the routes except to give some person holding a mail contract a larger payment of money. I do not want to indulge in any controversy, but merely . to put on record the facts in this case so that the Postmaster General may remedy the grievance of these people, which in the winter months is a serious one. These families live on the crossroads and have to go a long distance to get their mail. I hope that the minister will be able to fulfil his promise to me at an early date.


Robert Laird Borden: I regret that the Postmaster General is confined to his bed by illness. I am, of course, not familiar with the matters to which my hon. friend has directed the attention of the House, but I will direct the attention of the Postmaster General to the observations of my hon. friend and ask him to take the matter into his best consideration.
\ *



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
* The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
['It will all be susceptible of explanation at the end of the session.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. R.. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.\nTuesday, February 22, 1916.']
Robert Laird Borden: Before the Committee proceeds with Estimates I would like to give an answer to a question with regard to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police

which was asked by my, hon friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) during the discussion of an item in the Estimates to which it did not appertain. The item to which it properly referred, has been passed, but there is no objection whatever to giving the information. Upon an item relating to the Government of the Northwest Territories, my hon. friend made these observations:
Mr. Turriff: As this is probably the last item on which I can bring this subject up, I should like to ask the minister why Inspector Heffer-nan of the Northwest Mounted Police was not given his ordinary promotion, and why two junior officers were put over his head, practically compelling him to resign? I do not ask the minister to reply now, but he might have this information for me when his estimates come up again.
Mr. Roche: I would point out that the Royal Northwest Mounted Police are not in my department, but in the Prime Minister's. I will direct bis attention to the hon. gentleman's question.
The report made to me by Mr. Forteseue reads:
In October, 1S14, owing to the increase of the force to 1,200 non-commissioned officers and constables, two additional superintendents were required, and the appointments were filled by the promotion of Inspectors G. S. Worsley and R. S. Knight, Inspector Heffernan, who was' senior to Inspector Knight, being passed over on account of his being lame and unable to ride, and therefore not in a position to perform his duties.
Inspector Heffernan having been passed over for promotion, requested to appear before a medical board with the view of taking his pension. This was done, and the board found that owing to the loss of power in his left leg, lie was incapacitated for the performance of his duty ; that the incapacity was likely to be permanent, and recommended that he be invalided and granted a pension. Inspector Heffernan was therefore, by Order in Council of the 4th December, 1914, retired from the service with a pension of $1,068 per annum.
Everything that was done in the matter was done on the recommendation of the Commissioner and Comptroller. I had no personal knowledge of the circumstances, and no knowledge of any of the persons involved, except that I had Acquaintance with Inspector Worsley who, as I am informed, was the senior of Inspector Heffernan.


Mr. TURRIFF:: I do not know very
much about the matter either; I was asked to bring it up by a member who was unable to be present. But it would appear on the face of it rather peculiar that Inspector Heffernan should be considered as unable to perform the duties of Superintendent on account of lameness when apparently he was able for years to perform the duties of

inspector, which would be more likely to entail outside work and hard riding.


Robert Laird Borden: I really do not know anything more about the matter than is contained in the report. I can assure my hon. friend that I do not know Inspector Heffernan, and I would be very 5 p.m. sorry to do him any injustice.
The matter was in the hands of Commissioner Perry and Comptroller For-tescue, and I have no reason to suppose that they would in any way do injustice to Inspector Heffernan or to any officer or man in the force.
, Grant to the Interparliamentary Union for Peace, $200.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Is it the intention to spend this money this year; I wish it were.


Robert Laird Borden: This is the
usual grant. It seemis to me that this is a year in which the efforts of the Interparliamentary Union for Peace are required as much as in any other year. The amount will not be used unless it is necessary.
To provide for the expenses of the Acting High Commissioner, London, England, $10,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: Does the Government intend to have a permanent Commissioner, or simply to have an interim Commissioner, as we have now?


Robert Laird Borden: The services of
the representative of the Canadian Government in London during the war have been attended with a great deal of advantage in securing desirable co-operation between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Canada in war matters. When Sir George Perley went to London in 1914, it was not the intention that he should remain there beyond September of the same year; but war broke out on 4th August, 1914, and, after consulting with the British Government, we thought it desirable that he should remain. He has satisfactorily discharged the duties of High Commissioner and he has also done a great deal of work, and has had to do with a great many affairs, which, strictly speaking, might not come within the purview of the duties of High Commissioner. Up to the present time, we have not thought it desirable to make any change in that arrangement, which has worked very satisfactorily. When in England in June last, I spoke to the (Jolonial Secretary, Mr. Bonar Law, and I found him very appreciative indeed of the services of Sir George Perley. He expressed to me the
view that while the war lasted, at least, it was very desirable that the arrangement which has existed during the past eighteen months should be continued, and for that reason we purpose to continue it.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is not proposed to make a permanent appointment now?


Robert Laird Borden: No, not now.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I wish to inform the Prime Minister that there have been general complaints among the business men of the country as to the lack of a strong organization in the High Commissioner's office in London, to enable business interests in this country to be represented under more satisfactory conditions than have obtained in the past.
I make no special comment upon Sir George Perley's services one way or the other, except that I have heard prominent business men in this country say that there is no reason why there should have been such a tremendous expenditure in the United States upon a thousand and one different kinds of war supplies, when they could have been obtained just as easily in Canada. I am sure every hon. gentleman in this House has heard it said, as I have, that had the High Commissioner's office been properly organized, and had representations been made to the Imperial authorities as to Canada's facilities for turning out different kinds of war supplies, much of the trade that has gone to the United States -would have come to Canada. We are told that in the United States, for some^ reason which it is most difficult for us in Canada to appreciate, everything, that is purchased by Great Britain is done through Morgan & Company. Morgan & Company may be very important people in a financial way, and I suppose their services in that respect are of importance to the British Government; but at the same time there are many industries in Canada which could be operating to-day, turning out war supplies for the British Government if the trade had been brought to Canada instead of to the United States.


Robert Laird Borden: What, for example?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) suggests horses. I am speaking of the general complaint made by commercial men in this country. We are told by certain persons represent-

ing Great Britain-and my right hon. friend must have heard of this-that if contracts in certain lines are to be given to Canada the price's must be lower than the price in the United States; when just the reverse should be the case. Canada, very properly, and on the highest possible grounds, is making great sacrifices in men, and in every other way for the Empire and the great issues involved; the United States,- so far, has remained absolutely quiescently neutral. Yet, to-day, the workshops of that country are humming, turning out for the British Government supplies, a large portion of which might have been made in Canada. If immediately after the war broke out there had been a vigorous effort on the part of Canada's representatives in Great Britain; if they had made representations to the Imperial authorities as to Canada's facilities in the different lines of manufacture, I say we should have secured a larger portion of business than we have done.


Mk. BURNHAM:: Is there anything to prevent my hon. friend going over there and making these representations?


Mr. KYTE:: He is not paid for it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I do not see what the pertinence of my hon. friend's question is.


John Hampden Burnham: I understand that the h&n. gentleman, who characterizes a civil question as an impertinence-	.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I said "the pertinence."


John Hampden Burnham: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon. I understood my hon. friend to say that if the'proper people had gone to the Old Country at the beginning qi this war


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No, that was not it.


John Hampden Burnham: Well, at some time during the war, then.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No, that was not it.


John Hampden Burnham: Well, at no time, then. I must have altogether misunderstood my hon. friend.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think my hon. friend must either be afflicted by the acoustics of this building, or, as the hon. member for North Cape Breton said the other day, the " alarm clock " has gone off again. My hon. friend spoke without appreciating what I said. I said if we had had a proper business organization in the High Commissioner's office at the beginning of

the war, and our representatives had given to the proper authorities in Great Britain full and adequate information as to our facilities for manufacturing different kinds of war supplies we should have received a larger amount of orders than we have had. I say that that complaint is being made by business men all over this country; that the workshops of the United States are humming, and their workmen busy, manufacturing supplies which could be turned out in Canada just as well; furthermore, it has been said that unless Canada can supply certain lines cheaper than the United States she will not get the order.


Robert Laird Borden: Would my hon. friend give me his authority for that statement?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If I may trespass
upon a somewhat debatable subject, shells, for instance. Has my right hon. friend never heard the statement that unless Canada manufactures shells as cheap or cheaper than the United States, the order would go to the United States?


Robert Laird Borden: I have not heard of it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Then my right hon. friend has not heard what others of us have heard from well-informed authorities on the other side. Of course, I do not wish to give my hon. friend the details of a private conversation, but I may say that that statement comes from a source about which there can be no dispute. Sir George Perley is a very estimable gentleman, as all of us who knew him in this House know, but he went over to London as a locum tenens; he did not go over there inspired with the idea that a High Commissioner should have, namely, to make a record for himself as the representative of Canada. He went to London simply to hold the place till my right hon. friend was ready to make a permanent appointment. I do not care what the ability of any man is, or what his position,	unless he	gives	to that
position all the energy and enthusiasm which a man would do who was inspired with the idea of discharging his duties in the best possible manner and with full 'credit to himself, he will not get the best results. Complaints are made throughout Canada generally, and have been made for the last two years, that the business organ-iation of the High Commissioner's office should be on a wider basis. With all respect to the distinguished former High Commissioner. I say, as one wlio has visited

the High Commissioner's office, that we should have more Canadians on the staff; that now, before it is too late-and it is even more imperative on account of the war-there should be an immediate reorganization of the High Commissioner's office along business lines. We have been told in this House, and it is being said in the country, that when this war is over we may look forward to a period of prosperity. I hope that is true; the Minister of Trade and Commerce, however, expressed very grave doubt that it would prove to be true. We can be sure of this, however: so long as the war lasts, and perhaps for some years afterwards, Great Britain will be a big buying nation. Why should she not be induced to buy more supplies in Canada? It is all very well to say to business men in this country: send your private representative over to England. Men engaged in business in Canada have sent their own representatives over there; but they have always had difficulty in obtaining an entry into the proper quarters, on account of the red tape which always ensues from long-settled officialdom. Notwithstanding the personal regard we all have for Sir George Perley, I want to/urge upon the Prime Minister the necessity of an immediate re-organization of the High Commissioner's office. We should have in London a business department, representing the business people of Canada, and prepared to say to the properly constituted authorities over there; Canada can do this, that and the other thing. I reiterate that the feeling among the business interests of this country is that greater energy should have been displayed by the Government in dealing with this matter. If Canada's facilities had been brought to the attention of the British Government, millions, of dollars that have gone to the United States would have been spent in Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend has made some assertions that are entirely without warrant, as I can assure him. He takes it for granted-I do not know for what reason-that no representations have ^been made to the British Government nor to any of the Allied Governments-perhaps he did not go that far-as to the facilities in Canada for providing the supplies required for the war. He was never more mistaken in his life than when he made such an assertion, because from the very earliest weeks of the war up to the present time, the Government has repeatedly both by letter and by cablegram brought our

resources to the attention not only of the British Government, but of the Allied Governments, through the British Government. My hon. friend contends that these governments should have been made acquainted with a list of the supplies of various kinds that can be furnished by Canada. That has been done by this Government on more than one occasion, and last summer I handed an amended and enlarged list to the various departments of the British Government. I had a great many conferences on the subject with them. In addition I 'arranged with the International Purchasing Commission in London to secure an interview at which all the Allied governments, I think, were represented. I spoke to them upon the importance of securing in Canada many supplies which we were able to provide as promptly and, I believe, of as good quality and at as reasonable prices as they could be furnished in any other country.
More than that, I have received from time to time, at least twenty-five delegations from persons in this country who were able to furnish supplies and who contended that the British Government had not availed themselves of the resources of Canada as freely as they should have done. To every one of those delegations which came at various times during the last fifteen months, I explained precisely what we had done in this connection, and in every single instance, after the situation had been explained and after the representations which we had put forward had been made known, those delegations stated to me in distinct terms that they believed that the Government of Canada had done everything possible to secure orders for supplies, not Only from the British Government but from the Allied Governments. If my hon. friend knows of business interests throughout the country which are not satisfied with what the Government has done, I would be very glad to receive any of them and to explain to them, more fully than it is possible for me to do in this House, precisely what we have done in that regard, the character of the representations that we have made, and the effect that they sometimes have produced. It is perfectly true that early in the war there were sent to the United States orders that might very well have been sent to this country, and I have put representations in reasonably forcible terms before the various departments of



[Stage Direction]
the British Government with regard to that. If my hon. friend were acquainted with those terms, I am sure he would regard them as expressing, as forcibly as it * would be appropriate to do, the views of the people of Canada and of the Government of Canada in regard to this matter. I would be very much surprised to learn that any department of the British Government-
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I did not say " any department."


Robert Laird Borden: 
John Gillanders Turriff: It seems to me that the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) might have gone a little further and included the allied countries as well as Great Britain. I have read in the newspapers half a dozen times within the last few months that even orders for British Columbia timber have to be given through agents in the United States. My right hon. friend gave the figures of British orders given in the United States, but we have seen lately in the newspapers statements of orders to the amount of $2,000,000,000 for war munitions and supplies placed in the United States, not by Great Britain alone, but by the allied Governments. I was told by one of the very highest railway authorities in the Dominion that last month there had been at one time twenty-five thousand cars loaded with supplies ordered by the Russian Government standing on the tracks around the port of New York, for which, by some mismanagement, the agent could not secure ships. That was one of the causes of the blockade in different parts of the United States and also in Canada. I do not know what class of goods these cars contained; they may have contained shells for all I know. So far as I can learn Canada has not yet produced one single completed shell, and so would not have been able to furnish shells to the Russian Government. But the fact that twenty-five thousand cars were standing on the track at one time loaded with goods consigned to the Russian Government, shows to what a vast extent that Government is buying goods in the United States. It seems reasonable to believe that there must have been in these cars some classes of goods that should have been ordered in Canada. And, while 1 am not going to say that my right hon. friend and his Government have not taken some steps to secure these orders, it does seem to me that there has been either carelessness or incompetency in some way or Canada would have got a better proportion of the orders for such materials as we could



have supplied just as well as the United States. I think the remarks of my hon. friend from Pietou were ,very timely and very much to the point, and I trust the Government will take them in good part, and will see if in the future something more and something better cannot be accomplished than has been accomplished during the last year. I can quite understand, as the right hon. the Prime Minister says, that during the first six months of the war things were upside down, and probably none of the Governments knew exactly where they were. But during the last year, and especially during the last six months, this has not been the case. And from this time on-and we may have this war going on for another year, or two or three years-if the Government will be alive they can accomplish more than any private individual, no matter how good a salesman, can accomplish. We should be able to obtain a good big percentage of the orders given by Russia, France and Italy, to say nothing about Great Britain. I have no doubt that, so far as British orders are concerned, if we can fill them, and fill them at right prices, we can get a good share. But I think we ought to get a good share, a bigger share than before the orders from the allied countries.


Robert Laird Borden: I hope the hon. gentleman (Mr. Turriff) will not place too great reliance upon reports he sees in newspapers. If on one occasion at least on filty occasions since the outbreak of war indignant telegrams have been sent to me about rumours of huge orders for this, that, or the other class of goods, placed in the United States that could have been placed in Canada. I am quite sure that in at least ninety per cent of the cases, and I believe in ninety-five per cent, upon my sending a telegram to inquire the reason for this and why Canada had been overlooked, I found that there was no truth whatever in the newspaper statement. In almost every case where rumours of that kind were brought by us to the attention of the British Government, either directly through the Governor General or through Sir George Perley, that was the reply. I am really at a loss to know what more could have been done by a Government than has been done by the preseent Government since the outbreak of the war. I have made it a matter of personal attention. On many occasions, during my visit to England last summer I miade it my business to go per-
sonally and see not only the responsible minister, not only the permanent head of the department, but the head of the particular branch that had to do with the ordering of supplies in this country, with the result, as I have said, that I had the definite specific and absolute assurance that, in cases where these supplies could be obtained in Canada, Canada would receive the preference. If any hon. gentleman on the other side of the House can give me any instance where that assurance has not been carried out during the past six or seven months, since that promise was made to me, I shall be very glad to have my attention directed to the instance, and I shall certainly bring the subject to the attention of the British Government without any delay.


Wilfrid Laurier: It seems to
me that my right hon. friend has not at all apprehended the force of the remarks that have been made by the hon. member for Pietou. The High Commissioner for Canada in London discharges in ordinary times duties of a diplomatic as well as of a business nature. Perhaps the exceptional, nature of the events that have occurred in connection with the war have justified the view of my right hon. friend that it would be desirable to have one of his colleagues at the seat of Imperial Govenrment. The business in connection with' work of a diplomatic nature has been increased tenfold by the war, and I find no fault with my right hon. friend's having in London one of his colleagues to represent the Canadian Government. I do not wish to say anything as to the character of the services which Sir George Perley has rendered, because they have been largely confidential, and we have not had any report of his operations. One thing, however, is apparent to everybody: if, in addition to Sir George Perley, who might properly have given the greater part of his time and attention to our diplomatic relations with the British Government, there had been at the High Commissioner's office in London a wide-awake, up-to-date business man, Sir George Perley would still have had his hands full in attending to the matters which came before him for consideration. I am sure that under these circumstances Sir George Perley, even if he did his best, could have rendered more valuable service. If this be the case, it would seem that the sooner some capable person is appointed to this position the better it will be for the country.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not believe that a better business roan than Sir George Perley, who has had wide business experience, can be found in Canada. I know that his time has been taken up more largely with the matters of business than with matters of diplomacy. When I was in London during the past summer I asked him whether he required on his staff any additional persons who should be familiar with these matters, or whether he required any further organization. I assured him that if he desired any additional organization or any increase in his staff, the Government would be only too happy to make the .necessary provision therefor. He told me that up to that time the staff had been adequate for all needs, and that if he should require any addition or reorganization, he would let me know, in which case the Government would make any provision that might be necessary or desirable.


William Pugsley: I have heard from persons who ought to know that for a number of years the High Commissioner's Office has been lacking in officials who are Canadians. It has been strongly urged that Canadians of ability and experience ought to be attached to -the office. That complaint was made at the time of Lord Strathcona's commisgionership, and it is made to-day, notwithstanding the change that has taken place in the High Commissioner's Office. If my right hon. friend will ask the representatives of the provinces in London, what they think of the official circle in the High Commissioner's Office, I am sure he will be told that it is not at all satisfactory. The difficulty seems to be, and has been for years, that the office is looked upon rather as a diplomatic office, and that those who are in charge regard themselves as being above and separated from the ordinary people of Canada. I heard that statement not very long ago from a very able man who has been the representative of one of the provinces in London, and that which I heard a few weeks ago was the same story that I heard a few years ago. More Canadian life ought to be infused into the High Commissioner's office. No matter how good a business man he may be, the High Commissioner, occupying the distinguished position that he does-which, as I have said, is largely diplomatic-cannot be supposed to give to business matters the attention which would be given to them by business experts. My right hon. friend says that if the correspondence were dis-
[DOT] closed it would be seen that he has made vigorous protests to the officials of the British Government respecting orders in Canada. The very fact that he found it necessary to do that is a reflection upon the High Commissioner's office. Why should my right hon. friend have found it necessary to make vigorous protests against the way Canada was being treated in respect to war orders? The proper officials of the High Commissioner's office ought to have been looking after that. They ought to have informed the officials day after day with those who had the giving of war orders. They ought to have informing the officials of the British Government that Canadian manufacturers were prepared to turn out all supplies needed for the equipment of soldiers just as well as manufacturers in the United States. The Minister of Militia has said that after the war broke out the officials of the British Government were ' actually of the settled opinion that shells could not be manufactured in Canada. Why were they so ignorant of the capability of Canadian manufacturers? Should they not have been informed by the officials of the High Commissioner's office that Canadian manufacturers could turn out shells? Why was it necessary for the Minister of Militia to cable to England the information that Canadian manufacturers were capable of turning out shells? So with other matters. Why was it that up to a few months ago it was thought by officials in Great Britain that Canada could not manufacture . fuses? Large orders for the manufacture of fuses were given in the United States; I believe that these fuses have not yet been delivered to the British Government. Why were the officials of the British Government not informed that these fuses could be manufactured in Canada just as well as in the United States, and why should not these millions of dollars have been distributed among the Canadian people instead of among people of the United States? Why has it remained for Mr. Flavelle, as Chairman of the Munitions Board, after almost eighteen months, to take the first steps for the manufacture of fuses in Canada, when everybody knows that our manufacturers have the skill, the enterprise, the capital, the opportunity to establish factories which would enable them to do this work just as well as manufacturers in the United States do it? My hon. friend has a just ground for making, on behalf of the Canadian people, the complaint wfiich he

has made. If we ihad attached to the High Commissioner's office, not Englishmen, who know comparatively little about Canada and its resources, as compared with what the people of Canada themselves know, but expert Canadians, who would give information on these matters, and would be in toucfh with the officials of the War Office from day to day, very much greater results would be accomplished for Canada and very much larger orders would be placed than have been placed. Of course, it is not too late to remedy the evil, and I trust that in the future some steps will be taken along the lines suggested by my hon. friend from Pictou.


Mr. OLIVER:: I wish to draw attention to the fact that, so far as the manufacture of war supplies in the city of Edmonton is concerned, the condition is not as good today as it was six months ago. Some time last winter a contract for the manufacture of saddles for the Russian Government was secured by the Edmonton Saddlery company. That was filled with complete satisfaction. Then, in the spring, a contract was secured for a thousand sets of artillery harness for the French Government. That contract was filled to satisfaction; it was turned out within the contract time, the quality was beyond criticism, and, of course, no fault was found with it. But since then no contract of that character has been secured in that city; in fact, no other contracts of any kind, so far as I am aware, except that two machine shops have been able to get certain shell contracts. The manufacture of lharness is an industry that naturally belongs to the western country. There is in that country an enormous demand for team harness, and it is advantageous that it should be made near where it is required. So we have in western cities harness manufacturing establishments manufacturing harness and leather work of that kind who do it, I have no doubt, as well as it is done anywhere in the world. Thus we are not barred by our conditions and circumstances from securing contracts for that particular form of war supplies. I wish to bring that fact to the attention of the Prime Minister as otherwise it might be assumed that while things were not satisfactory a few months ago they are satisfactory now. They were more satisfactory a few months ago than they are now, inasmuch as we were getting contracts then and are getting no contracts now.
I am under the impression that this question

is very much larger than it has been consid ered to be up to the present time. While it is not well to pay too much attention to what appears in the newspapers, still the fact remains that, there is an enormous industrial boom in the United States by reason of these war contracts. Only this morning I read in the Montreal Gazette that the bank clearings of the United States for the week ending on ' Thursday last were over fifty per cent higher than for the corresponding week last year, and the general impression is that that change of conditions is very largely due to the profitably work of providing war supplies. There has been no such increase in bank clearings on our side of the line. The same statement gives the increase of clearings in the eastern cities at twenty-nine per cent, in western cities at only six and a half per cent over the same week last year. So there is no doubt that unless there has been a misunderstanding as to the source of the industrial activity of the United States, it must be because the proportion of war orders there is immeasurably larger than here. The figures given by the Prime Minister were one hundred million pounds to the United States, as against forty-eight million pounds to Canada. That is to say we were receiving war orders of nearly half the value of those placed in the United States. If that were the fact, the forty-eight million pounds would mean relatively a much greater degree of industrial employment and advantage to Canada than the one hundred million pounds would to the United States; and yet we find that the financial conditions, universally represented as being the result of war orders, are very much better in the United States than they are in Canada. I do not wish to criticise or to suggest that the Government has not used every effort or has not appreciated its responsibility in the matter, or that the High Commissioner is not properly discharging his duties; but .the fact remains that with the condition of war now existing there has been an opportunity for tremendous industrial expansion on this side of the Atlantic. According to what we might consider fair play Canada should share in that industrial expansion at least equally with the United States. But, as a matter of fact, Canada has not shared equally with the United States in that expansion and, so far as the city of Edmonton is concerned, the conditions are not as good to-day as they were six months ago.


Robert Laird Borden: The industrial
organization of the United States is, of course, in a very much more advanced

condition than that of this country, and it is enormously greater. When the statement was given to me by the director of contracts. Mr. Winter, I really was surprised that the proportion placed in Canada was so large, because from the reports in the press I thought that the orders, placed in the United States must be perhaps ten times as great. I have no reason to believe that the statement furnished to me was not an accurate statement; I am sure it would be accurate and dependable. That, however, relates only to orders placed by the British Government. There have been orders for harness from the Italian, French and Russian Governments, and there may have been some for boots at one time, although I think lately there have not been any orders for boots. Whenever we have heard of a contemplated order by the French, the Russian, or the Italian Government, we have not failed to press upon the attention of the Government concerned, in each instance, Canada's ability to fill that order. We have not failed to do that in a single instance where the subject has come to our attention, and in some cases with good results. As far as leather goods are concerned, I am informed that we shall require for our own troops in the immediate future a very considerable amount of harness, that requests for tenders have been sent out within the past two or three weeks, and that tenders will probably be in shortly. I hope it may prove that the industries in Edmonton, to which my hon. friend has alluded, will benefit by the opportunity thus afforded.
I may say to my hon. friend that in dealing with orders for supplies for our own troops, the Government have felt it incumbent upon them to give special consideration to the industries of Western Canada. We have taken steps for that purpose which I think have proved effective. I do not think we can well be criticised for taking the course to which I have alluded, and which can be explained later by the hon. member for East Toronto (Mr. Kemp) as chairman of the War Purchases Commission. It was felt that we should give consideration to the conditions of unemployment which prevailed in the West, during the months of last winter and last spring, perhaps to a more serious extent than in other parts of the country, and that we should also have regard for the splendid response that has been made all through Western Canada to the call to take up arms in defence of the liberties of the Empire. I hope that
Edmonton may derive some benefit from the tenders which, I believe, are expected shortly.
At six o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: We have had the advantage of the statement which has been made by the Prime Minister in regard to this matter, but as has been pointed out by hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, I think the right hon. gentleman misapprehended the point I was making. I, of course, accept his statement as to what the Government did on this side in regard to supplying the material required for the war. It is, however, a matter of common notoriety in this country, that owing to certain representations that are said to have been made by certain members of the Government, a very large contract for shells for Russiia is now being filled in the United States, certain contractors having transferred it there. I quite believe that my right hon. friend discussed with the Sceretary-of State for the Colonies and other members of the British Government, what Canada might or might not do in regard to supplying the needs not only of Great Britain, but of the Allies. But he is here and the War Office is there. The point which I made was and I desire to reiterate it, that there is not in the High Commissioner's office today, and there has not been since the war began, that arrangement for business representation in the Old Country whereby the War Office would be advised of the thousand and one things that could be made in Canada. The High Commissioner's Office is not in a position to advise the War Office as intimately as it should be advised in regard to these things. My right hon. friend and his Government are many thousands of miles away from the War Office. What Canada wants, and should have, in the High Commissioner's office is a business attache or attaches equipped with a full and complete knowledge of Canada and her industrial facilities, and in touch with the War Office at all times. TJiat the necessity for such an organization exists I propose to prove by the evidence of my right' hon. friend himself, in a statement which he made to the House just before prorogation last year. On the 15th of April, 1915, the Prime Minister made certain remarks in regard to a statement prepared by the

j66
Chairman of the Shell Committee. The Prime Minister quoted the following paragraph from that statement:
The ordnance advisor reported this matter and indicated how many more shells could be undertaken. The Minister of Militia called a meeting of the committee at Ottawa and, after discussing the matter, cabled Lord Kitchener, pointing out that much larger contracts could be undertaken by the manufacturers in Canada. He emphasized the fact that many works were standing idle in the Dominion, while contracts were being placed in the United States for shells by the British War Office. This resulted in additional contracts for 18-pr. fixed ammunition, complete without fuses and empty 18-pr. shrapnel shells.
Then my right hon. friend went on to say:
It was proposed by several of the manufacturers that a deputation from the committee should be sent to the War Office, London, to put their claims before the Secretary of State for War. The Minister of Militia, decided on the recommendation of the committee, to send Mr. David Carnegie, as he was familiar with the whole situation. It was also decided that he should visit Woolwich Arsenal and obtain the latest information on the various details in the manufacture of complete ammunition.
The result of his visit has been fully reported to the Minister of Militia, but it might be briefly stated here that the War Office officials did not fully understand the nature and importance of the committee's work, and had no idea that the factories in Canada were capable of undertaking such contracts, until these facts were placed before them.
I submit that that proves my argument, that there should be in the High Commissioner's office in London a business representative or representatives with full and complete knowledge of Canada's resources and industrial facilities. Then it would not be necessary for an errant Shell Committee to send over to England after a long lapse of time some gentleman to inform the War Office of Canada's capacity for making shells. I submit that the first duty of our representative in London, 'after his diplomatic duties, was to lay these facts before the War Office. The Prime Minister gave this statement to the House in April, 1915, less than a year ago. The War Office had no idea that our factories were capable of undertaking such contracts until these facts were placed before them. The High Commissioner for Canada should have placed these facts before the War Office months before we sent over Mr. Carnegie to tell the War-Office what we could do; and I submit that if the conditions which prevailed in the High Commissioner's office at that time, and which had prevailed since the outbreak of war, still exist to-day I have fully proved my statement that Canada is daily losing business for the simple reason that we have nobody in England to tell the War Office

what we can do. My right hon. friend told us to-day that there was not a better business man in Canada than Sir George Perley. Though I have every personal regard for Sir George" Perley, I take exception to that statement. I do not think that the business knowledge of Canada will die with Sir George Perley. He was the fortunate possessor of inherited wealth, and his relation to business was largely confined to lumber and the Ottawa valley. There are hundreds of men in this country to-day who have fought their, way up in the business world and have a more general knowledge of the business of Canada than Sir George Perley, estimable gentleman though he is. And that he has fallen down, or has not behind him that organization which would enable him to attend to all these matters, is quite patent from the statement I have just read in regard to the lack of knowledge on the part of the War Office, and the necessity for Mr. Carnegie's mission to England. What is the position of Canada to-day? Is Canada supplying the needs of the boys at the front? We all know what a tremendous consumption of clothing, fittings, and accoutrements there is in connection with our boys in the trenches; how their underclothing has to be thrown away, and that sort of thing. Can my right hon. friend tell me whether Canada is supplying these deficiencies as they arise? "Unless we have in Whitehall or at Victoria street an organization which is able to be in touch with the War Office daily, and in a position to give the War Office full and complete information 'as to Canada's industrial facilities and capacity for production,-an organization in possession of all those details which proper business management would require to be on hand, is it any wonder that contracts are being placed in the United States while " many works were standing idle in the Dominion," as Colonel Bertram said in his statement. I submit that we should have in the High Commissioner's office an organization which would be on the qui vive .at all times, to inquire from the War Office what was wanted- and inform them as to the, extent these [DOT] requirements could be filled in Canada. That is what Canada requires at the other side. In considering this question we need not discuss the personality of Sir George Perley; the question is, has he under him that organization which will enable him to cope with the situation as it exists today? If the office of the High Commissioner is anything like it was some seven or eight years ago, I do not care how clever Sir

George Perley is, I say that High Commissioner's Office is totally and absolutely inadequate to deal with the representation of Canada's possibilities in connection with this war. Any one who has been on the other side will agree with me in that statement. I am urging, not upon any small ground, but upon the ground that it is in the interest of the whole country, that Canada should be properly represented in Great Britain. One does not need to recriminate in a discusion of this kind and I am not recriminating; I am simply stating that it is alleged in the press and that it is stated in the Shell Committee's report, that the War Office does not know what Canada can do; that it believed that we could not make shells and that it had to send Mr. Carnegie over here to tell us how to make them. The same is true of almost every other industry. I am as strong a British subject as any man, but I am also a Canadian, and I realize, as any hon. gentleman who has visited the other side must, that there is a long road to go in order to teach officialdom, and many people in Great Britain, just what Canada's possibilities are. Hon. gentlemen in afterdinner speeches will utter splendid sentences, and editors will write lengthy editorials In regard to these problems, but when you come down to the business end of the matter, Canada, if she is going to take her share in furnishing the supplies required to help out the Empire in this war, should have and must have adequate business representation in the High Commissioner's Office; or if not, the history of the first six months of the war, as detailed in this report will be repeated every six months until this war is over, and this great country to the south of us, whose rather apathetic interest in regard to the grave issues involved in the war has become the wonderment of the civilized world, will go on doing as it did during the first six months of the war, that is, taking many more millions of dollars for orders than Canada is receiving. I urge this matter upon the Prime Minister in all seriousness; I believe the importance of the business interests of this country requires this urging which I am attempting to make.
I assert that the High Commissioner should have a business organization representing this country which should gr.ther from governmental and other sources full and complete and adequate information in regard to the possibilities of Canada, and
that this should be available at all times sii as to enable the High Commissioner to pat his hand at any moment on information in regard to the furnishing of any supplies that the War Office may need from time to time.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend speaks of the lack of knowledge on the part of the British authorities as to the capability of Canada to manufacture shells.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: This report does.


Robert Laird Borden: As a matter ot fact, my hon. friend did not know that Canada could manufacture shells.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Oh, yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Further than
that, if he did know it, he knew more than the manufacturers themselves knew, because it was with the greatest possible difficulty in the first instance that they were persuaded to undertake the task of manufacturing, not shells, but shell cases, in Canada. At first, there was a great question as to the production of shells here, and it is to a gentleman in my hon. friend's constituency, Col. Cantley, that credit is due for making it apparent to the British Government that we could produce in this country steel which was perfectly well adapted for the purpose of manufacturing these shells, and the steel has to a very great extent been produced in Canada. It is all very well to look at conditions as they are to-day, but in order to understand conditions as they were when the war broke out, we must realize not only that the British Government- did not know the capability of Canada to do a great many things that it is doing to-day, but the manufacturers of Canada themselves did not realize the capabilities of Canadian industries to do a great deal of What is being done in this country to-day. When that capacity was once demonstrated, the Government was insistent, in season and out of season, in urging, not only on the British Government, but on the Allied Governments, the resources of this country to produce food supplies and also manufactured articles necessary for the war. I said to my hon. friend this afternoon that there was a distinct engagement-I have it in writing under my hand-that whenever any articles required by the British Government could be produced in Canada, application would be first made to Canada. I have asked for any instance during the past six months in which the purchasing

departments of the British Government have not fulfilled that promise. I repeat that if any instance of that kind can be brought to my attention, I shall be prompt to make the British Government acquainted with it, and to ask them the reason why a distinct engagement entered into with them last summer has not been carried out.
My hon. friend asks whether or not our men at the front are supplied with uniforms and clothing produced by Canadian manufacturers. Our men gq overseas supplied with uniforms and clothing ordered by the Canadian Government in Canada. I do not know whether my hon. friend had in mind what I had in mind when I was in t'he Old Country and brought the matter to the attention of the British Government. I said: " When our men get to the front, their uniforms and clothing have to be
discarded' from time to time and new issues are made by you; you tell me that you are able to supply in the British Islands all requirements for uniforms and clothing; I suggest td you that, so far as you issue uniforms and clothing to Canadians, under the conditions mentioned, you ought to consider the manufacturers in Canada, and I insist that you shall consider the Canadian manufacturers in this country." They gave me a pretty fair answer with regard to that, and I will tell my hon. friend what it is. I have it right here under my hand. They said to me: " Here is a statement of issues to Canadian troops already made and of estimated issues for the next twelve months, and here also is a statement of the purchases of these same articles in Canada from the first day of August, 1914, to September, 1915." The memorandum is as follows:
Issues to Canadian Troops.
Articles.	Issues already made.	Estimated Issues for next 12 months.	Total Issues.	Purchases in Canada, August, 1914, to 'Sept., 1915.Great coats.	
Jackets	
Trousers	
Flannel shirts	
.... Cardigans	
Vests	
Drawers.. . 	
Socks (pairs)	
Rubber boots	
Shoe packs	7,700 27.000 18,500 45.000 200 19.000 40.000 71.000 1,302 275	24.000 120,000 80.000 200,000 50.000 80.000 160,000 300,000 10,400 Nil.	31,700 147.000 98,500 245 000 50,200 99,000 200.000 371,500 11,762 275	103,145 504,738 502.000 1,015,385 665,488 207,450 3,028,800 5,155,002 110.000 9,700There were two items as these I will read:	to which purchases have not been made in Canada, and	Articles.	Issues already made.	Estimated Issues for next 12 months.	Total Issues.	Purchases in Canada, August, 1914, to Sept., 1915.Pantaloons	
. . . Ankle boots	13,500 31,130	60,000 120,000	73,500 151,130	Nil. Nil.
If hon. gentlemen take these totals, they will see that the purchases in Canada of articles of the character set forth have been infinitely greater than those supplied to the . Canadian soldiers. So, my representations to the War Office met, as I consider, with a very satisfactory answer. On the whole, purchases made by the British Government in this country are a good deal larger than hon. gentlemen imagine. I have documents here on this subject. They are marked "confidential," but I shall be very happy 
indeed to show them to any hon. gentleman on the other side. I have a summary of a statement of purchases, and I might just run over the list, without indicating the amounts, to show the wide range of articles purchased by the British Government: Sets of saddlery, artillery harness, blankets, saddle blankets, wire cable- thousands of miles of this has been ordered -copper rod-many tons-double sets of artillery harness, army blankets, high explosive shells, cardigans, pantaloons,

brass brushes, shaving brushes, paraffin candles, pick axes, . picketing points, picketing posts, shovels, anti-toxin, water bottles, bacon, cheese, flour, fowl, oats, preserved meats, dried vegetables, great coats, trousers, coats (sheepskin lined), cotton drawers, fingerless gloves, leather mitts, rubber boots, travelling kitchens, wagons, horse collars and a very great variety of other goods. This was up to last July. Since then, we have had a statement of further orders placed. I may read a selection of some of these: Cables, munition boxes, cartridge cases, finders, trinitrotoluene-a new product in Canada-folding axes, hand-axes, hammer-headed axes, barbed wire, forgings, helves, leather goods, musical instruments-particularly bass and side drums-nails, shovels, bacon, cheese, flour, hay, oats, dried vegetables, rubber boots-a very large number-suction hose, cardigans, woollen drawers, socks, undervests, shoe-packs, and a great many other articles with which I need not worry the Committee.
I am as anxious as any hon. gentleman in this House to see full justice done by the British Government and the allied governments to the resources of Canada. I am convinced that the British Government is giving us every consideration possible. That is the statement that was made to me last summer. The correspondence, as I have said, is largely of a confidential character, but perhaps I may be allowed to quote a sentence, if the House will pardon me for not laying the letter on the table. This letter is a summary of a great many communications made orally and in writing by the spending departments of the British Government. At the end of what I shall quote is a reference to the exchange difficulty, which was very great at that time. I hope hon. gentlemen will bear in mind, in connection not only with the British but with the Russian Government, that the exchange question presented very great difficulty, and as is well known, the arrangements made for a loan in the United States were partly designed to meet this difficulty. I quote:
Whenever it is found necessary to place an order abroad, it is and will be the settled practice of my department to give Canadian producers the first opportunity of tendering, but our purchases abroad must obviously be limited by our ability to pay for them.
That part of the sentence relates to the difficulty with regard to exchange, which was much more serious at that time than it is now. The pledge which was made to
me in that letter and in letters from other departments of the British Government, has, I think, been honestly carried out. I think it has always been the desire of the British Government to give every possible consideration to our industries. I am inclined to think that in the early weeks of the war orders may have been given on this continent in the belief that they were being filled by Canadian manufacturers, when, as a matter of fact, they were being filled by people on the other side of the line. I hope hon. gentlemen will appreciate the enormous task that was imposed upon all departments of the British Government when this war broke out. There is, perhaps, a little more routine in those departments than in our own; and up to that time they had been filling their military and naval requirements almost wholly, I think, in the British Islands. In the stress, hurry and confusion of the awful events which were precipitated in August and which have continued ever since, one would not wonder, perhaps, that the officials of these two great departments should select some large company in the United States to fill an order which had to be filled at once, without giving that consideration which we might have expected they would give to the resources of this country. I thoroughly believe that the officials of all the departments of the British Government were not at all aware of the extent of Canada's industrial resources when this war broke out, and in that respect I entirely agree with my hon. friend. I think, however, that my hon. friend Should be satisfied that I have taken every possible means to impress upon, them since the war broke out the extent of our industrial resources, and I know that Sir George Perley has done so. By means of telegrams, despatches, and oral conversations with the various officials of the British Government, we have sbught to impress upon them in the most vigorous way what we axe capable of producing in Canada, and I do believe that at the present time they are pretty well seized of our capabilities. Every official of the British Government who has come here during the past eight or nine months-and there (have been many of them, from the War Office and from the Admiralty-has freely admitted that the manufacturing industries of Canada are, much more extensively developed than they had previously realized. It is that point of view which we have endeavoured with a good deal of success, I think, to impress

an all the official! of the War Office, the Admiralty, and the other spending departments of the British Government.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Anything that I say must not be construed as an unfavourable criticism of Sir George Perley, much less a condemnation of his business ability. Sir George went to London as High Commissioner, not as commercial agent. The duties of High Commissioner heretofore have been along lines entirely different from those now under discussion, and it would not be surprising if the High Commissioner, without the necessary machinery at his disposal, should not be able to accomplish everything we might expect of him as our representative. But the point is that we have an office in London, and that we have not supplied that office with the machinery necessary to meet all the requirements of industrial Canada. Shortly after the war broke out I met in Toronto a gentleman from western Ontario, who wanted to know to whom he should convey the information that he could supply certain things for the War Department. I tried to advise him as well as I could, but he said that he had approached without success the persons whose names I gave him.


Robert Laird Borden: Had he tried me?


George Perry Graham: I think I did not give
him my right hon. friend's name. Whatever we have done in the past, I think it is now time that we had in the city of London full machinery to meet the requirements of businessmen and manufacturers of Canada who have had and will have goods to export. The office of High Commissioner has always been, as it is now occupied by prominent men who have upheld the dignity of the Canadian people. That is well; but as a young nation depending largely upon the returns from pur export trade for our advancement, we ought to have in our office in London the most practical machinery that we can arrange for. A Canadian who had occasion to visit the United States frequently since the war began would have the peculiar experience of meeting in that country Canadians with orders in their pockets from the various Allies, which they were trying to place with manufacturing concerns across the line. Had we had the necesary machinery these orders would have come through the High Commissioner's office, and would have come to Canada first. The fact that a Canadian got an order did not imply that that

order would be filled by a Canadian manu facturer.
That gentleman, no matter whether he lived in Canada or not, would take that order where, perhaps, he could get the largest amount of commission out of the various allied countries. Men from our own country, not by the single individual, but by the score, have been in the great cities of the United States ever since the war broke out, handling orders from the Allies and .from the British Government, that ought certainly first to have been offered to the Canadian manufacturer.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: What was the nature of the orders received from the British Government that they were peddling over in the United States


George Perry Graham: They had orders for
munitions of various kinds, and these were offered to and generally accepted by the United States manufacturer. I am not saying that I blame the Canadian for getting these goods manufactured in the United States as a pure business proposition, speaking of it in a cold-blooded way; but my contention is that if we have had the proper machinery attached to our High Commissioner's office, or, in an office by itself in London, these orders would (have come through that business office, and the Canadian manufacturer would have had the first opportunity to fill the orders; then if he could not do so it would be his own fault. The other day I referred to the many millions of dollars' worth of orders placed in the United States, and it is no secret that some orders have first gone to the United States and nave then come back to Canada. If proper steps had been taken we would not have had so many unfinished shells in Canada. Russia, I am informed, has a surplus of time fuses, or did' have a few weeks ago. They were getting shells in the United States to be fitted with these time fuses, while we in Canada, an ally of Russia, have to make the empty shells without the time fuses. With proper organization these two parts would have been brought together, and the Allies would have had several more millions of rounds of ammunition complete, and the Canadian manufacturer would have had the benefit.


Robert Laird Borden: Were these time fuses manufactured in Russia?


George Perry Graham: I am not sure. They
had them on hand but had not a supply of


shells equal to their supply of time fuses. That there is a - lack of information my right hon. friend admits. Of course one cannot be surprised, if we take Mr. Winston Churchill as an authority, because some years ago he did not think much of us as a manufacturing country. He thought we had not land strong enough to put a fifty ton crane on, and that we could not build the crane anyway. That only shows that we have not given our friends the Allies the information they ought to have. The Prime Minister, I admit, went to the Old Land and placed the information before the War Office, and has done so by correspondence as well.


Robert Laird Borden: We had done it before that.


George Perry Graham: There ought to be some machinery, outside of the Prime Minister of Canada, to carry on this business. It ought not to be left to the First Minister of this country to make a commercial agent of himself and to have to go to the Old Land to tell them what we can do in Canada. It is not the man who does all the work himself in an institution who makes the institution successful; sometimes he is wasting his time doing things that the hired man ought to do. It is the man who will surround himself with men of ability to organize, so that he only has to say what ought to be done and he has the machinery at' his disposal for the carrying out of his orders. The Government should have organized, as quickly as possible after the outbreak of the war, an office, either in connection with Sir George Perley's office or by itself, which would have been an official medium between Canada and the Allies to furnish information as to what Canada could produce and how quickly she could produce it. Then, when orders came to Canada, as no doubt any of the Allies were willing to give orders to us, they would know that there was an office in London where they could apply and receive the proper information. I do not wish to unduly criticise, but, I believe that during the first few months of the war when munitions were so badly needed, Canada missed the opportunity of her life to put herself on the map as one of the chief manufacturing countries in the world. Many of our shops that were standing idle for reasons to which I need not refer, could have been kept running at full speed; and instead of Canadians going to Russia., France, and Great
Britain, getting large orders and taking them to the United States, we would have had an organization in London to direct a portion of these orders .which we could have handled, to our own manufacturers. Whatever mistakes have been made in the past, would it not be a good idea for the Canadian Government from now on to attach to our London office some machinery to look after the business interests of Canada, npt only in war time but in peace time! We have commercial agents in different parts of the world, but it is not strong or harsh criticism to say that the system of commercial agents for Canada has not produced the results the manufacturers and agricultural interests of Canada hoped it would. Particularly in the heart of the British Empire, Canada ought to be known; her resources ought .to be recognized. Her ability to produce on the farm and in the shop ought to be as well known in London as in Ottawa, or Montreal, or Toronto. That is not the case with manufactured goods alone. We have our tanners, our meat producers, our men who are arranging for the marketing of agricultural products. We have supplies of all kinds that could have been sent to the Allies; Russia, Italy, and France, as well as to Great Britain. My experience is that the people of Canada who produced these goods did not seem to have an adequate idea of how they were to get to that market and get at it quickly. There is no question that we can produce all these kinds of goods; and we ought, and we can, produce them as Cheaply as they can across the line. If, after forty years of protection, our manufacturers cannot produce the goods then we have been on the wrong t^ack all these years and ought to start some other way. But I take the ground, without wishing to discuss the fiscal policy, that the manufacturers of the Dominion of Canada to-day have shown in the completion of the orders which have been given to them, that they are equal to the manufacturers of the United States or anj other part of the world, and that all they need is . to be given the machinery by which they can get at the consumer. Then, they as producers can compete with any other producers in any part of the world.


William Humphrey Bennett: After the war
broke out a great deal was said in different magazines and newspapers as to the supplies that were going to the old country, and I am sure it will be gratifying to know that one-half the purchases made by Great

Britain have gone from Canada. That was the official statement made by the Prime Minister this afternoon.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Oh no; it was not.


Robert Laird Borden: 
William Humphrey Bennett: 
George Perry Graham: That would not be fifty per cent.


William Humphrey Bennett: Was it to be assumed, in view of the fact that urgency was the whole crux of the situation, that the British Government would look to Canada for supplies when it must have been patent to the British Government that the great factories of the United States, producing material for one hundred million people, would be better able to supply their immediate wants than the factories of Canada, which were producing for only eight million people? A great deal has been said in the newspapers that has misled people. For instance, in a town in the riding of East Simcoe there is a concern that makes motor boats. A public-journal said that huge orders were being given in the United States for the construction of motor boats. I was appplied to as the sitting member to see if I could not have an order placed with this concern. I got in touch with the Prime Minister's office. What were the facts? The facts were that the Schwab Company of the United States had received a contract amounting to many millions of dollars from the Allies, not for these motor boats alone, but for a variety of articles, including, I assume, munitions of war. Included in that order were some two hundred or three hundred motor boats. Had the newspapers gone a little further they would have found that these motor boats were being manufactured in Canada because this concern came over to Canada and placed the order in Montreal and Quebec-at least that is the information I received from that boat company in Penetanguishene. The hon. member from South Renfrew says the British Government would not know what we could produce in Canada. Why, Sir, the first contingent of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces were thoroughly equipped in Canada, and the British authori-

ties must have known that they were equipped in Canada. They knew that the equipment had not been sent out here. The hon. member for South Renfrew complains that shells were not made in Canada in the first instance. He is a director of a company engaged in making shells, and if they knew that shells were needed why did not his company send over a representative to ask for orders. That is the fact, and hon. gentlemen opposite know it. When war broke out, the large concerns in the United States did what the Canadian manufacturers neglected to do; they dispatched their commercial travellers or agents to Great Britain to secure orders at the outset. Any hon. gentleman who has read the magazines or newspapers knows, that London was swarming with representatives of those large concerns at the beginning of the war, and that was how they secured their first orders. As I have already said, urgency was the first consideration, and it was natural to expect that the British Government would look to the larger field. The hon. member for South Renfrew said he had been informed, and I have no doubt it is true, that Canadians had placed orders in the United States; but he will not say that they were orders for clothing, meats, canned goods, or for a thousand other articles that I could niame. He says that they were simply orders for munitions, and that was to be expected.


George Perry Graham: One order was for shirts.


Robert Laird Borden: Was the order
from the British Government?


George Perry Graham: I did not say that.


William Humphrey Bennett: I do not know
what the position may be in the hon. member's riding, but I do not think there is any complaint in my riding that the manufacturers are not getting a fair share of the work. Not only were British orders placed in -Canada, but French orders as well. I know that a large number of woollen mills, including one in my own town, were employed for months in making blankets for the French army, and that order was, I assume, secured through the High Commissioner's office, or through the Department of Trade and Commerce. There were also, I understand, large orders placed throughout Canada for all kinds of woollen goods, and the * entire equipment of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces was made within Canada. Sir George Per-ley is known as a leading business man,

and, apart from his own business as a lumberman, he is well known as a director of a bank and of other concerns. I think most people in Canada who know him will be quite satisfied to have Sir George Perley as an agent in London representing the business interests of this country.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the orders placed in this country by the French Government are larger than is generally imagined. Up to last summer they had placed orders for 458,200 army blankets; 15,000 complete seta of saddlery, 15,000 supply blankets, 5,000 complete sets of saddlery, 5,000 supply blankets,
9 p.m. 20,000 sets of artillery harness, 20,000 long driving boots, 20,000 supply blankets. Then the Russian Government, I know, placed .an order on one occasion for 20,000 sets of saddlery. I think there were other orders, but I cannot recall at the moment what they were.


William Pugsley: What would the total amount of these orders be?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could not tell my hon. friend accurately; it would amount to several million dollars.


Mr. GOPP:: I notice that in reading the items supplied by Canada to the British Government, the Prime Minister referred particularly to harness and saddlery. Can he inform me whether any of these articles are being supplied by Canada now for the British Government; that is, harness, saddlery and things of that nature?


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot say whether there are any outstanding orders for the British Government.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Will the Prime Minister get the information and let me know; I have an inquiry on the point?


Robert Laird Borden: The Minister of Trade and Commerce is more intimately acquainted with these matters, but I will ascertain and let my hon. friend know. I am reminded by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) that the Russian Government placed a considerable order for locorhotives, and a large order for cars also. I hope that hon. gentlemen .will realize that for those orders which have come to Canada, Sir George Perley is entitled to a great deal of credit, for he has worked very hard and assiduously to procure them through the representatives of the various governments, and also through the Foreign office. I do not think my hon.
friend from South Renfrew was in the House when I stated that the staff of Sir George Perley was more efficient than some hon. gentlemen seemed to realize. I also stated tljat when I was in London I told Sir George Perley that we were prepared to give him any additions to his staff, or any organization that he might think was necessary; and he told me that he did not think that any additions were necessary then. Whether his judgment was mistaken in that regard I do not know, but I have a good deal of confidence in his judgment on such matters. My hon. friend from South Renfrew, rather deprecated the idea of the Prime Minister of this country taking up such matters. I do not agree with him in that at all, because I can assure him, from my knowledge of how those matters are dealt with on the other side, that it is of some importance to this country that the Prime Minister should .show such an interest in matters of that kind as would bring them to the attention not only of the ministers but of the permanent officials of the British Government. I am thoroughly convinced that the efforts which have been made directly by myself in that regard have not been thrown away- I will not say more than that. My hon. friend can take my assurance that the labour has not all been in vain.
For supply of Canadian publications to Library of High Commissioner's Office, $1,000.


William Pugsley: Now that we are getting down to business in connection with the Estimates, I would like to point out to my right hon. friend what seems to me to be a great anomaly in the Estimates which have been presented to the committee. These are supposed to be estimates of the requirements of the Government for the coming year, and as submitted to the House, they amount to $188,981,218.58. In the Budget speech, my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) made the statement that the total estimated requirements of the coming year would be only $160,000,000, there being nearly $29,000,000 in these printed estimates beyond the amount which the Finance Minister said would be required for the coming year. Does my right hon. friend think he is treating Parliament right when he brings down printed estimates for the very large amount of nearly $30,000,000 more than the Finance Minister says will be required to carry on the public services? That is the first point which I make: these Estimates ought to be revised, and there should be submitted to this commit-

tee Estimates of the actual requirements for the coming year. If the Government should disagree with that view and decide that they will not revise the Estimates, it seems to me the committee should be given a statement of what amounts are to be deemed as struck out; otherwise, in the case of each of these thousands of items we shall have to inquire which amounts it is deemed unnecessary to expend, and .which are put in the Estimates simply, shall I say, as a matter of form, or with a view to inducing people interested in the various constituencies to believe that Parliament has voted certain amounts to be expended, when it is not intended to spend these amounts at all. We are left completely in the dark, and I think at this early stage in the Estimates the information I have asked for should be given to the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend will bear in mind that the Estimates for last year were made up, to a considerable extent, on the basis of-the year before, and that for reasons which are obvious a number of public works, for example, were not proceeded with although they had been sanctioned by Parliament two years ago, and would have been carried out had it not been for the war. These Estimates have been somewhat cut down again this year, but some items have been left in, with the understanding that it would not be wise while the war is going on to begin new [DOT]works. Oil' the other hand it seems undesirable to cut out items which have been sanctioned by Parliament on more than one occasion, and which would ihave been expended had the financial condition of the country permitted the work to be done with due regard for the necessary equilibrium, so far as it can be maintained, between revenue and expenditure.


William Pugsley: I do not remember that any such statement was made to Parliament last year as has been made this year by the Minister of Finance. Ordinarily, the Government asks Parliament to vote amounts for public services which are deemed to be necessary in the public interest. If, by reason of changed conditions, or delay in getting the plans prepared, it is inconvenient to go on with any particular work, that, of course, is a reason for not making the expenditure. But it would appear from the statement of the Minister of Finance, which can be found on page 84)7 of Hansard, that these Estimates have been gone over

very carefully, and that the Finance Minister has determined what items shall be proceeded with and what shall not be ca-ried on for the present, for he has given a positive statement that the estimated expenditure will-be only $160,000,000. It does seem to me that before we go through the farce of voting those moneys we should know how the Finance Minister arrives at that figure; we should know what makes up this $30,000,000. If some of these works are not to be gone on withy Parliament at another session will have to vote the money for such as it may then be decided to carry on, and we shall therefore be going through the farce of voting moneys that there is no intention of spending, and that there is therefore no reason for asking Parliament to vote. My right hon. friend says it would not be fair to strike these items out. Why not? If it is not intended to carry on these works-and the Minister of Finance must have deliberately resolved that some of these works shall not be carried on or he would not have made the definite statement he did to Parliament- the fact of our voting the money this year will not save the necessity of voting it at another session. Does my right hon. friend not see how unfair it is not to give this comittee the same information as the Finance Minister has, so that we may know what amounts it is seriously intended to spend during the coming year, and what amounts are put in the estimates simply that those interested may have the pleasure of reading them over and seeing what might have been under other circumstances and other conditions. It does seem to me a perfect farce to vote $30,000,000 of the, people's money as being required for the coming year, when the Finance Minister in his - budget speech told this Parliament "that that $30,000,000 would not be expended. If the Government are determined to keep the estimates as they are, I submit that this committee has a right to be informed as to what items-it is not intended to act upon.


Robert Laird Borden: As we come to
the different items we can make explanation as to whether it is intended to proceed with them or not, but I haTdly think that my hon. friend with his warm and sympathetic nature would deny to the people interested in some of these items the poor consolation of seeing an item continue in the estimates which has been approved by Parliament on more than one occasion. My hon. friend knows that the Government do

not propose to proceed with new public works during the continuance of the war. It is desirable, however, I think, that the items should remain in the estimates as they have already been voted more than once. For instance, it might happen that the war would be over before the money is voted again. We have no reason to believe at present that such will be the case, but it is a contingency which none of us can absolutely dismiss. I do not think there is any harm in, permitting these estimates to stand, as the Government has already given the assurance that it does not intend to proceed with new works while the war continues.


William Pugsley: I doubt very much
whether not proceeding with new works will account for the large sum of $30,000,000. Does not my right hon. friend see


The CHAIRMAN:: I must say to the hon. member for St. John (Mi. Pugsley) that out of courtesy to him as an old parliamentarian, and in view of the fact that he wished to make his protest while the Prime Minister was present, I did not take objection to his -course. I must say, however, that the hop. gentleman is out of order, and if he purposes to continue, I must respectfully call his attention to subsection 5, of rule 13:	' '*
Speeches In Committee of the Whole must he strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration.	.


William Pugsley: I will make it strictly relevant to the item under discussion. As you will see, item 309 is to provide " For supply of Canadian publications to Library of High Commissioner's Office." I have a right to know whether this is one of the items that it is intended to expend; therefore I am quite in order in the remarks I have to make. Does not my right hon. friend see that if we have to ask questions on all items that go to make up this enormous sum of $30,000,000, it will take us weeks to get the information? If my right hon. friend thinks these items should be left in the Estimates, surely he will not think it unreasonable that there should be a statement prepared of the items which it is not proposed to expend.


Robert Laird Borden: I will bring the observations of my hon. friend to the attention of t'he Minister of Finance. I understand that this particular item will be expended.


William Pugsley: This is not a large amount, but it is by the thousand and
one such items in these Estimates that this $30,000,000 is arrived at. . At .such a time as this we might very well defer the buying of new books for the library of the High Commissioner's office. If the High Commissioner and his staff do their duty, they will be devoting their attention, to matters connected with the war, and they will not have much time to read the books in the library, so that they will not require much of this additional expenditure of $1,000. I take it that this library is merely for the use of the officials of the High 'Commissioner's office and not for . the use of the public. I fail to understand why $1,000 should be expended at this time wlien money is so urgently* required for other purposes.


Robert Laird Borden: If my hon.
friend will confer with the hon. gentleman just behind him (Mr. Macdonald), he will understand, that it is very important for the officials of the High Commissioner's office to make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the capabilities of Canadian industries from day to day and to know the progress of the business affairs of this country.


George Perry Graham: They can get that information in Government returns.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend will realize the great importance, at this particular time, of the officials of the High Commissioner's office keeping themselves thoroughly informed of what is going on in this country.


Frank Oliver: In regard to the advisability of keeping items standing in the Estimates because they were voted in good faith some years before, if we are to appreciate the statement made by the Minis

ter of Finance in his Budget speech, we must realize that we are facing new conditions in regard to matters of finance, and that the conditions that prevailed two years ago .when these items were voted, will never jigain prevail. We are already shouldering burdens that were never contemplated at that time, and we certainly shall have to shoulder still greater burdens. I think we hardly appreciate the tremendous change that has occurred in our financial situation, when we keep in the Estimates from year to year items that were originally voted under very different circumstances.	.


Robert Laird Borden: I will bring my hon. friend's observations to the attention of the Minister of Finance.
To provide for the publication of the second edition of Constitutional Documents relating to Canada, vol. 1, 1759 to 1791, $5,000.


William Pugsley: My right hon. friend will surely admit that if there is any item included in this $30,000,000 in regard to which we may fairly assume that the expenditure cannot be deemed urgent, this is one. Is it proposed to spend this money?


Robert Laird Borden: It is proposed to expend this money fqr the reason that the previous edition is altogether exhausted, and we have received innumerable demands from judges of the courts and others in all parts of Canada, and from other countries, for further supplies of this book. It is a very important publication, and of a character such as is published by nearly every civilized country in the world. Commendations of the work have been received from time to time from important bodies in nearly every European country, and in the United ^States. The book is said to be urgently required in Canada for many purposes. I have had many personal letters on the subject, and, after a good deal of consideration, the Government thought that the demand for this book and its usefulness were such as to justify us in asking for the moderate sum of $5,000 in order that a second edition might be published.


William Pugsley: The Prime Minister will see that it is an entirely new item.


Robert Laird Borden: Oh, yes; it is an absolutely new item for the second edition of the book.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Can the Prime Minister tell us whether or not this is the book which an agent was endeavouring to sell in my province last summer? This agent represented himself as being connected with the Archives, and as co-operating with the gentleman whom I understand to be at the head of the Archives, and he said that the book was highly recommended by the Government. The book-from its name-pretended to publish constitutional documents and "documents in the Archives that were never published before. Perhaps this is not the same book as is mentioned in this item, but I wish to bring to the notice of the Government that the publication I refer to is regarded as a huge fraud; it consists of sixteen volumes

which are sold iat $4 each. I am not speaking personally as having been hurt in any way in connection with this book, because I did not subscribe to it, but clergymen and other respectable people in my community came to me and said that the book was a great fraud upon the public, and that this agent had said that he was an agent of the Government, and was encouraged by the Government to sell this book, and he also had the names of some reputable men in this country. I take it for granted that this is not the same publication, but I take this opportunity of pointing out that this agent, whose name I now forget, represented himself as bOing connected with the Archives as receiving the assistance and cooperation of the gentleman at the head of the Archives, and as selling the book under the supervision and authority of the Government. Those who have received the volumes are very much disappointed, and they think that there is nothing new about them at all, and that the public should be warned against this agent.


Robert Laird Borden: The book mentioned in the item consists simply of one volume of Constitutional Documents. There is a publication-I will not go into the merits of it-called the Resources of Canada, or something like that, in a large number of volumes, but the Government has absolutely nothing to do with that work. If my hon. friend will send me the name of the agent who represented himself as acting for the Government, it will be my duty to make some inquiry into the matter.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I want it distinctly
understood that I did not mean to say that he was acting for the Government, but that he said he had the approval and commendation of the Government. That was about all he said.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not aware personally that the Government had ever expressed any opinion about this work one way or the other. I would not understand it was the duty of the Government to make any comment upon it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Can the Prime Minister tell us who is publishing this work?


Robert Laird Borden: The book referred to in this item was got out under the former Administration. I think Dr. Shortt compiled the volumes almost entirely, with some .assistance from Dr. Doughty.

To provide for the expenses of the Conservation Commission, $80,000.


William Pugsley: Is it expected to expend the whole of this money?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, I understand it is necessary to expend the whole amount. The hon. gentleman will observe that there is .a reduction in the Estimate this year of $13,000.


William Pugsley: It seems to be a large
amount to be spent in one year. Perhaps the Prime Minister would give us some items of the expenditure of last year.


Robert Laird Borden: They are all in the Auditor General's Report.


William Pugsley: Then I need not trouble the right hon. gentleman.


Frank Oliver: I desire to ask a question in regard to the authority of this commission. An order has been issued to compel the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trank Pacific Railway to use crude petroleum for firing on their locomotives in British Columbia. Is that order issued under the authority of the Conservation Commission or is it by the Government on the advice of that commission?


Robert Laird Borden: The Conservation Commission have taken a great interest in preventing forest fires caused by sparks from locomotives. They make representations to the Board of Railway Commissioners and the Board of Railway Commissioners issue the orders. If I am not mistaken there was an arrangement between the Board of Railway Commissioners and the Conservation Commission to bear jointly the expense of some investigation on that subject. I have not the details clear in my mind, but I remember that I have conferred with the chairman of these commissions and the Minister of Bailways and Canals on the -subject.


Frank Oliver: Recently the Canadian Northern railway has opened a line across British Columbia. Will it be compelled to install oil-burning appliances on its locomotives also?


Robert Laird Borden: I could not give an answer off hand, but I -shall make inquiries and let -the hon. gentleman know. These matters do not ordinarily come before me, but sometimes I have a representation from one or other of these bodies asking me to take some action, or to give particular attention to some subject that i-s regarded as urgent.


Frank Oliver: It would be an anomaly, of -course, if the Canadian Pacific railway and the Grand Trunk Pacific railway are compelled to use oil and the Canadian Northern is not so compelled, because for some considerable distance west of the summit of the Rookies the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern run alongside each other within a few yards. But I take this opportunity to say that this order of the Railway Commission, even if based on the recommendation of the Conservation Commission, does not enjoy any large measure of favour in the minds of the people of Alberta, where they have a superabundance of coal which they are anxious to have used. The fact is that this order has been a stunning blow to the coal-mining industry of Alberta. It appears to me that the order was given, perhaps, with hardly a full appreciation of the industrial consequences to result from the importation- of California oil to take the place, as a motive power, of Alberta coal. And while it is- necessary, of course, that the forests should be conserved from fire, it does seem to me that some other means of protecting the forest from fire from locomotives might surely have been discovered by the Conservation Commission rather than a means which transfers such an important part of the industry of Alberta to the oil fields of Southern California.


Robert Laird Borden: I will direct the attention of the Board of Railway Commissioners to the observations of my hon. friend. In stating what I -have stated about it, I speak, not so much from personal knowledge as from a recollection of the fact that the Conservation commission drew my attention to the matter. I am not sure of the representations they -made, but I know that they were greatly interested in the subject.	>


George Perry Graham: I -am not sure that the Board of Railway Commissioners made that order; I am not sure they did not, although I have some doubt about it.


Robert Laird Borden: I was only suggesting that if the order was made I feel quite sure the Conservation Commission did not make it, because that commission would have no jurisdiction.


George Perry Graham: Some years ago, when the question of better protection of the forest. Not only along railways in operation but along lines of construction, was under discussion, shortly after the formation of the



Conservation Commission, the chairman of that body, the then chairman of the Railway Board, the representatives of the railways interested held a conference in the office of the Minister of Railways of that time and expressed their views strongly as to what should be done for the protection of forests along railways built or under construction. Also, the Department of the Interior had certain 'methods of dealing with timber lands in their charge. The result of it all, was if I remember well, that certain amendments to the Railway Act were drawn up and submitted for the joint" approval of those interested. And under that amendment powers were given to the Board of Railway Commissioners which were very wide in reference to the protection of forests. I think that if orders have been given in this case it would be under those amendments to the Railway Act. And I have been told that the two railways, of their own accord, had begun to use oil as a fuel, although I am not sure. It is also very well known that the Imperial Oil Company, which is the Canadian branch of the Standard- Oil Company, is establishing a distribution plant in the West, for the purpose, I suppose, of meeting that demand. It may be somewhat hard on the coal producers of Alberta and British Columbia if the large consumers of coal use oil. Is the chief of the medical staff of the Conservation Commission across the ocean at present?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, he is in charge of the Red Cross work.


George Perry Graham: Is he still connected with the Conservation Commission?


Robert Laird Borden: It was suggested by the Red Cross Association that his services might be utilized in connection with Red Cross work. The chairman of the commission was consulted and he gave it as his opinion that leave of absence might be granted to Dr. Hodgetts without detriment to the public interest.


George Perry Graham: That gives rise to the question as to whether the Government intends to create a new portfolio in the Cabinet, to be taken charge of by a medical man. Some months ago I had the pleasure of listening to a remarkable address by a young Canadian woman now resident in the city of Rochester. They have established in that city a " Live a Little Longer" association, the object of which is to give instruction in first aid. The public school
l.mr, WiiUiam. J
buildings are utilized for the purpose of holding and giving instruction. Lectures are given by physicians; practical demonstrations are made by physicians and nurses as to how to treat every sickness in its incipient stage. Medical, men assert that many deaths could be averted if those in attendance upon the sick person knew immediately what to do. Sometimes a few moments delay in getting a physician means death, while prompt action may save life. In Rochester valuable information in this connection is being carried right into the homes. Mothers are being instructed as to the symptoms of the diseases to which little children are subject, and how to deal with them 'instantly in order to protect these little lives until professional aid arrives.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the instruction given to the parents?


George Perry Graham: The mothers go to the
schools and receive instruction. As evidence of the fact that this work proves to be of practical value, I may point out that this young woman was asked to deliver this address at a. meeting of the presidents of the life insurance companies of America. The heads of these great institutions believed that the information to be gained from this young woman's experience would be of actual financial benefit to their companies; they printed many thousand copies of the address and sent them all over the United States. I think it would be worth while bringing this matter to the attention of the Conservation Commission with a view to seeing whether we in Canada could not undertake that kind of work. I wrote the Chairman of the Conservation Commission, and sent him a copy of the address. He seemed impressed with the idea, but unfortunately the war broke out. Dr. Hodgetts was called away, and I suppose the matter was crowded out from the attention of the commission. It ought to be considered whether we in Canada cannot, perhaps at first in a small way, and with little or no expense, using for the purpose our public school buildings which are unoccupied during the greater part of the day, establish courses or classes of instruction along this line. If we should do si, I believe the benefit to the people and to the country as a whole would be marvellous


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the Conservation Commission give attention to the conserving of forests in the provinces, or do they

confine their operations entirely to Dominion lands?


Robert Laird Borden: They interest
themselves in the preservation of all forests.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In Nova Scotia it is
the practice of lumbermen to take leases of large tracts of timber lands, from which they cut the best of the timber, leaving scattered throughout the woods the tops, limbs and other parts of the trees that they do not want. The result is that forest fires occur in different parts of the province, causing immense loss. These men should be compelled to clear away or burn the rubbish and brush that is left after they have finished cutting, or dispose of it in such a way as to guard against fires. In Nova Scotia I do not think that any person takes special interest in that sort of thing. The Conservation Commission might cooperate with the Government of Nova Scotia or with their own officials in that province with a view to averting this danger.


Robert Laird Borden: The Conservation Commission have no administrative power in such matters. The only authority that would have the power would be the provincial authority, which could make regulations in connection with the leases, such as are made in a number of provinces, requiring the cutting to be done in a particular way and the dangerous material to be cleared up.


Frank Oliver: The duties of this commission are educative and advisory, not administrative. In view of the results to the province of Alberta of their advice up to date, I would be willing to agree to even a greater cut in the Estimates than has already been made. If the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance should see fit to reduce the amount, I think the province of Alberta, at any rate, would submit with equanimity to the suggestion.
Cost of proceedings before the International Joint Commission, $10,000.


William Pugsley: Will this be expended?


Robert Laird Borden: I think it probably will be. There are some important inquiries to be made, and the Government has to be represented sometimes by counsel and sometimes by experts.


William Pugsley: I think this is one of the most important courts in the country, because it has to deal with international questions arising between Canada and the
G2i
United States, and it has already settled some very important questions. The very fact that there is a tribunal of this character to which may be referred all disputes with regard to rights upon boundary waters, with regard to the erection of piers abutting on either one side or the other of boundary waters, with regard to the use of water for irrigation, and all those intricate questions which necessarily arise as to the use of waters having their origin on one side or other of the boundary line, and which are of such enormous importance, will go a long way towards preserving amicable relations between the United States and Canada. Therefore, I think that the court is a very important one, and everything ought to be done to make it thoroughly respected by the people of both countries, so that its judgments will carry weight with the people of both the United States and Canada. As Minister of Public Works in the late Government, I had a good deal to do with the formation of this court, as it came within the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Works, My own idea, and, I am satisfied, this was the idea of the Government of which I was a member, was that the tribunal should consist of eminent lawyers who would devote their entire attention to the work of the Commission. We started in that way. The Canadian Government appointed three lawyers, and the United States Government appointed three lawyers also. I impressed upon the gentlemen appointed on behalf of Canada that they would be expected to give up their professional work and to devote their entire attention to the work of this international tribunal. As my right hon. friend knows, a change of Government took place shortly after the appointments had been made by the Canadian Government, but before they were actually ratified by the Imperial Government. New appointments were made and a departure was made from the idea which we had. One gentleman on the Board is a layman, a very excellent man indeed, but still one who has not had any experience or training which would enable him to determine legal questions. In matters relating to rights of irrigation, and, perhaps, many other questions, he would be valuable as an expert to be attached to the Commission. The United States Government, I believe, has followed the course which this Government has adopted, and has not been careful to appoint only lawyers of eminence to the Commission. Gentlemen of the Commission

who are lawyers are constantly engaged in the practice of their profession, and I think it is not at all worthy of that court that gentlemen who are members of it should be engaged in hearing these questions of enormous importance affecting the interests of the two nations one week, and the next week be trying small cases in a county court, or in the Supreme Court of one of the provinces. If the salary is not large enough to induce them to give all their time to the work of this Commission, it ought to be increased. I believe, too, that the position ought to be a permanent one. It is now for ten years, but, of course, there might be a change in the personnel with a change of Government, if a new Government were to follow the procedure set by this Government. I remember my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when a criticism was made of the cancellation of the previous appointments, made the defence that the members of the Cbmmission ought to be in touch with the Government of the day. I take an entirely different view from that. To ensure for the decisions of this court the respect and the confidence of both countries, it ought to be recognized that it is an International court, that it is not subject to be influenced by the Government of either country, and that all questions that come before it will be decided according to the principles of right and justice, irrespective of the wishes of the Government which happens to appoint either one or the other branch of the tribunal. I should think the tribunal ought to be of a permanent character, and the gentlemen who comprise it ought to devote their entire attention to the very important work which they have to perform. It may be that the salaries are not large enough, but I think the Government ought to consider whether it would not be well to fix the salaries at such an amount as would ensure the giving by the members of that court, so far as Canada is concerned, all their attention to the work of the tribunal. I have very little doubt that if the Canadian Government were to adopt that course the Government of the United States would follow suit. The questions which may be referred to this tribunal are of enormous importance. There may be referred to it questions which either Government may desire to have referred to it, and also, by the joint desire of the two Governments, all questions, not merely boundary disputes, but all questions of every nature and kind which may arise 
affecting the relations between Canada and the United States. One has only to mention the important subjects which will come before it to realize of what vast importance this court is and how much it may accomplish in the future towards preserving amicable relations between these two countries.


Robert Laird Borden: I entirely agree with my hon. friend as to the importance of this tribunal; indeed, I took occasion, when speaking in New York not long ago, to emphasize the very great importance of the work it had accomplished. It has brought about in a very quiet may, and with no loss of time, the settlement of many disputes which it might have taken a very long time to settle by diplomatic methods, and which might not have been settled by diplomatic methods in the same satisfactory manner as has characterized the work of this tribunal. So far as the appointment of commissioners is concerned, those representing Canada consist of two very eminent members of the legal profession, and the gentleman to whom my hon. friend from St. John has made allusion. I think the latteT gentleman practically gives the whole of his time to the work of the Commission, and he is a man of a thoroughly judicial type, although not a lawyer. I do not believe that any member of the Commission, on either side, has given better service than that gentleman has given during the time he has been a member of the Commission. I am not so fully acquainted with the members appointed by the United States, but I do know that Mr. Tawney, who is, I think, chairman of the United States Commission, is a very eminent lawyer, a man who has taken a distinguished place at the bar of his State, and is regarded as a leader in his profession.
With respect to the point which my hon. freind has raised, that the members of the legal profession, who are members of the Canadian Commission, do not devote the whole of their time to the work, and engage in private practice, I may say the stipulation made with them when they undertook the work was that their duties as members of the Commission were to be considered as paramount and as having precedence over any work in the private practice of their profession. If I remember correctly, and I think I have a fairly correct remembrance of the matter, we followed in that regard the same instructions as were given to the gentlemen whom the late Administration proposed to appoint. I think

I have a pretty distinct recollection.-I am not going to state it positively-that before writing to those gentlemen on the subject, I examined a .letter or was made acquainted with a communication from the right hon. the leader of the Opposition at that time the Pirime Minister, and that he laid down precisely .the same principle to be observed by them in the performance of their duties. My. hon. friend seems to have formed a different impression. I shall be glad to refresh my memory on the point, and we could let the item stand. I know that I had in mind to follow the same course as was laid down in some communication by the then Prime Minister to the gentlemen whom he proposed to recommend, and whom he did recommend, to the British Government as suitable commissioners to represent Canada.


William Pugsley: I had more especially in my memory the conversation I had with Mr. Barnhill, whom I gave to understand distinctly that he was expected to devote all his time to the work of the commission, and that he would have to remove his residence to Ottawa. Possibly my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, then the Prime Minister, might have taken a different view, but at all events, that is the view I formed at that time.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not make
the assertion positively, but I have a distinct recollection- that we followed the same course in that regard as was proposed by the late Government. Of course, as my hon. friend has already mentioned, and as I would like to emphasize, we could hardly expect a leading member of the bar in any province in Canada to give his whole time to this work for the remuneration that is granted, which is I think $7,500. The leading men of the bar, I think in every province, are in receipt of much larger incomes than that. The remuneration of the Commissioners is less than the salary of a judge of some courts, and the appointment is only temporary. They cannot be assured that the treaty will be continued beyond the ten or eleven years mentioned, and they do not enjoy, as a judge does, any provision by way of pension, even if they were to remain commissioners for thirty years.


George Perry Graham: They are no worse off
than Cabinet Ministers.


Robert Laird Borden: If Parliament
desires to get the best men for the work, and the best men we can get are none too
good for a tribunal of this kind, and if it expects them to devote the whole of their time to the work of the Commission, I think it would be necessary to increase "very largely the remuneration which is now provided by law for the Commissioners.
To assist in suppression of the white slave traffic, ?10,000.


William Pugsley: Was the vote all expended during the past year?


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot say, but we could let the item stand, and I shall ascertain.


William Pugsley: This might be one of the items which the Minister of Finance had in mind to strike out.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not sure it was expended, but I have not examined the Auditor General's report.


Frank Oliver: Under what authority is this expenditure made?


Robert Laird Borden: It is under the charge of Colonel Sherwood, the Commissioner of Dominion Police, who has his agents and representatives in different parts of the country.


George Perry Graham: Has the Minister of Justice anything to do with the administration of the fund? There must
10 p.m. be some judicial action in some of those cases, and I would like to know whether that lies with the Minister of Justice or with the provincial authorities.


Robert Laird Borden: I imagine that the agents and representatives of Colonel Sherwood would lay information for any offence against the law, and then pro-cedings would be carried on under the provincial authorities. Doubtless Colonel Sherwood and his agents and representatives would see to it that the evidence was forthcoming.


George Perry Graham: It would be interesting
to know how many convictions were obtained under this machinery during the past year.


Robert Laird Borden: I will get a report from Colonel Sherwood. Of course my hon. friend will bear in mind that the object is not merely to punish offences, but to prevent their commission; and really, I think the energies of Colonel Sherwood and those whom he employs for this purpose are chiefly directed to the latter consideration.
98a

I shall be very glad to let the item stand until we get a report.


George Perry Graham: I agree that an ounce
of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I think it would be interesting to know just what has been done.


Frank Oliver: I should also like to know whether there is any lack of co-operation on the part of the authorities of any province.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not expect to go on with these Estimates, or I should have had a report from Colonel Sherwood before me. We shall let the item stand.
Amount required to pay Consular offices abroad for services, $500.


Robert Laird Borden: It occasionally happens that we require some special services from a British consular agent-services that we .could hardly call upon him to undertake without recognizing them in some way. A small grant for this purpose has been placed in the Estimates for the last two or three years.
Salaries and expenses of the Paris Agency, $28,000.


George Perry Graham: I do not want to repeat the discussion we had with reference to the High Commissioner's office, but I should like to ask whether the Paris offices are conveniently situated, and whether they are all together. The last time I was in Paris they were in separate places, but our agent was preparing to get new offices.


Robert Laird Borden: The offices now are very convenient and, I think, all together. They are entirely suitable, and are visited by a great many Canadians; at least, that was the case before the war. I was in the offices in 1912, and again last summer. When my hon. friend visits Paris again, I am sure that he will be pleased with the offices and come to the conclusion that the establishment there is creditable to Canada.


George Perry Graham: At the present time
we stand in a closer relationship to France and will probably continue to do so than ever before. Our treaty with France, entered into during times of peace, has I believe shown excellent results and we were just beginning to experience the benefits of that treaty when war broke out. It is a matter of general comment that when the war is over, there will be a closer

trade relationship between the Allies and that may mean there will be a greater distance between the Allies and those opposed to them. I wish to direct the attention of the Government and the country to the fact that after the war our relations with the countries who are now our Allies will be on a different footing from what they have ever been before. From what the Prime Minister has said, I believe that we have comfortable and commodious offices in Paris. Naturally, we expect that when the war ends our trade with France will increase; for after the experience of the two countries, standing side by side facing a common enemy, when in days gone by they were facing each other, I cannot conceive how it could be otherwise than that great trade results will accrue to both countries. Whatever else we may do, I think we should not neglect to keep our machinery in France for trade information and trade increase up to the minute, so that every opportunity that presents itself may be taken advantage of without waiting; and we must remember that trade cannot easily be compelled to go in any certain direction. The feeling now between the Allies is that we should be friendly in business, as in everything else. If that spirit is taken advantage of and the business clinched (if I may use the term) at the opportune time, Canada will reap a rich reward financially and industrially in the years to come, and any reasonable expenditure along that line will, I believe, meet with the unanimous approval of the people of this country.


Robert Laird Borden: I think Mr. Roy has had these matters before his mind during the last eighteen months. We find him efficient and indefatigable, doing everything within his power under present conditions to promote trade between this country and- France, and particularly to promote the placing of orders in this country for supplies required by the French Government.
Pension to J. B. Allan, $450.


William Pugsley: What is that for?


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. J. B. Allan was a member of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police who was rendered unfit for further service owing to a gunshot wound which he received while endeavouring to effect the capture of an escaped Indian prisoner called Almighty Voice.
Civil Government-administration of justice -salaries, $146,224.37.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What is the explanation of the increase of $4,075.62?


Mr. DOHERTY:: The increase is attributable to statutory increases and to provision for one additional messenger.


George Perry Graham: The first item in this is the deputy minister's salary, $10,000. Will the minister explain why his deputy gets $10,000?


Charles Joseph Doherty: This is the third year that this salary of $10,000 has been provided. It was considered that my deputy earned this salary. Any one who is familiar with the remuneration ordinarily received by a lawyer of the standing in his profession of Mr. Newcombe, giving his entire time and services, will readily recognize that the amount allowed here to him is fully justified. I hardly think that we could expect to get the services of a man like Mr. New-combe for less.


William Pugsley: The minister in his Estimates is asking for $4,075.62 more than last year. Is it intended to expend this amount, or will it form part of the $30,000,000 not to be used?
Mr? DOHERTY: The increase is attributable to statutory increases and to provision for one additional messenger, so that I have no doubt it will be spent. I think the gentlemen will collect their statutory increases.


George Perry Graham: The minister understands readily that the staff of his department has been increased very materially since he became minister, not in the lower grades, but by good strong men. I think the Solicitor General works pretty hard. He has been made a member of the Government so that, as a matter of fact, the Department of Justice has now two members of the Government. I do not suppose this one gentleman is deputy to these two members. If he were, I could see why he should receive more than another deputy, but I presume he is the deputy only of the Minister of Justice and not of the Solicitor General. The Government will have to adopt one of two principles in reference to deputies. I am not criticising the very able gentleman who is Deputy Minister of Justice; I agree with a good deal of what the minister has said, but this question of the salaries of deputies has always been a trouble with Governments and it is getting chronic. It
started in easily. My hon. friend the Minister of Public Works has a deputy; the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has a deputy; the Minister of Justice has a deputy; the Minister of Railways has a deputy. You cannot convince these deputies that they are not working just as hard as men can work. The ministers must find it a little difficult every time they are making up their Estimates to have one deputy getting $10,000, another $8,000, another $7,000, while the statute says $5,000.


Mr. CROTHERS:: You gave us a bad
example in your time.


George Perry Graham: When I was Minister oi Railways I had a gentleman who was Chief Engineer and deputy, and he got not quite but approximately the salary of both, because he occupied the dual position. When he left the department and two officers were appointed, they were put on the statutory basis, and the Deputy Minister of Railways got $5,000, the amount named in the statute. There is a difficulty which is not easy to settle. Possibly the solution might be found in following the course which has been taken in Great Britain, where even ministers' salaries differ according to the labour they perform. I would not like, to go through this Government and pick out the ministers who should get more, tnough that would be more popular than to pick out those who should get less. But there certainly is a difference in the labour performed by the heads of the departments, though- it should be remembered that each head of a department has joint responsibility as a member of the Government, a responsibility which the deputy minister does not bear. There is no question that the responsibility of deputies, as well as the work they have to perform, varies. The statute which fixes $5,000 as the salary for each deputy is honoured in the breach every year. I think it Should be under-stogd that the harder-worked deputy ministers will be paid more and the statute fixing the deputy's salary at $5,000 might well be wiped out.


John Douglas Hazen: The statutes give some deputies $5,000 and some deputies $6,000.


George Perry Graham: Of course, the whole thing is statutory, 'because these Estimates are put in the form of an Act of Parliament, but I mean the salaries fixed under the Civil Service Act.


John Douglas Hazen: The salaries of the deputies are fixed by statute. For instance, the
9&4

Naval Department-the statute provides that there shall be a deputy minister, whose salary shall be $6,000 a year. And I think the same is true of some other departments. I have the two departments under my charge and the salary of the-deputy of one is fixed at $6,000 and of the other at 5,000.


George Perry Graham: I think that the Naval Service Act is a ease where the salary was " slipped over," because a deputy with technical knowledge was required. But every year we are over-riding the Civil Service Act by these estimates, and I think the time has arrived when statutes ought to be passed fixing the salaries of deputies in the several departments. Then, the man appointed to the position would know exactly what he is to receive, and there would not be this friction and discussion every year.


Mr. ROGERS:: There is no violation of the statutes by the passage of the Estimates; and the amounts here are the same as last year.


George Perry Graham: Yes, and the same as the year before. But the fact remains that we have a general statute declaring that the salaries of deputies shall be $5,000, and to that we make exceptions every year. It might cause a little friction at first to have the matter understood and fixed, but it would be better in the end.


William Pugsley: I presume that nearly all the employees of the department are lawyers?


Charles Joseph Doherty: 
William Pugsley: Under Item 316 of these Estimates there is an appropriation of $13,000 for " expenses of litigated matters conducted within the Department of Justice." Does this money go to these gentlemen beyond their salaries?


Charles Joseph Doherty: This is for necessary expenditure in this litigation. You have to print your factums, you have to pay such disbursements as the court requires, and so on. This is an item that has been voted year after year. The expenditure under it last year was $5,997.60, and the year' before that $6,665.47. The amount varies necessarily year by year, and it is 
not possible to estimate it with accuracy in advance.


William Pugsley: Would this include lists of costs that might be made up and taxed, or would it be limited to amounts paid for printing and so on?


Charles Joseph Doherty: It is for expenses of
litigation conducted in the department. The amount expended would indicate that it is not used to pay fees.


William Pugsley: Suppose a suit is carried on by the Department of Justice; there will be solicitors' costs of say, $500; and these are incurred in the performance of work by the officials of the department. Would that be paid out of this item of $13,000?


Charles Joseph Doherty: If the work is carried
on by an official of the department we do not pay him solicitors' fees.


William Pugsley: This is for disbursements?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Yes.


George William Kyte: The report of the Auditor
General, Volume IV, page 4, shows three
items charged by the Justice Department as fees paid to lawyers for the preparation of legislation, as follows:
Preparation of Legislation ($1,570.50.) Lafleur, E., Montreal, hotel expenses at
Ottawa	$109.40
O'Connor, W. F., Halifax, servioes 17 <!.
at $40; travelling expenses, $131.10. 811.10 Surveyer, E. Fabre, Montreal; services
15 d. at $40; travelling expenses $50. 650.00
In view of the statement made by the minister that he has eight lawyers in the department, and considering also that we have a Solicitor General, and a Parliamentary counsel, with two legal assistants, one would imagine that sufficient legal knowledge would be found in the combined staffs of the Minister of Justice and the House of Commons to make it unnecessary to go all the way to Halifax to obtain the services of a lawyer-who, apparently, was brought up here-at $40 a day, and also two lawyers in the city of Montreal.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The item that the hon. gentleman refers to arose in connection with the examination of a large number of questions which it became necessary especially to look into just at the time of the outbreak of war, and these gentlemen's services were retained for that work. At that time Mr. Newcombe, the Deputy Minister, was in attendance before the Privy

Council. In considering Mr. Newcombe's salary, it ought to be borne in mind that he represents this Government before the Privy Council; if we had to employ special counsel to do that important work, the cost in a year would exceed Mr. Newcombe's salary by quite a substantial amount. But in regard to the particular matter that the \ hon. gentleman speaks of, it was considered that the importance of the questions to be dealt with and the research to be made necessitated this extra assistance, and the three gentlemen named were employed for that purpose. It is but paying them a fair tribute to say that their services were most valuable.


George William Kyte: Where was this work done"


Charles Joseph Doherty: In Ottawa.


George William Kyte: The gentleman from Halifax who took part in this work is a very capable professional man; I find no fault on that score. But the department would have saved his travelling and - hotel expenses if they had secured the services Of a lawyer in Ottawa instead of sending to Halifax.


Charles Joseph Doherty: This gentleman had done work of a somewhat similar nature, and we felt that he was thoroughly suitable to undertake this particular work. As he was available, we did not feel that we should be deterred from obtaining his services simply by the expense of his coming from Halifax to Ottawa.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I notice that during the interim between the last session and the present session, the Solicitor General has become a member of the Privy Council. Is it the intention of the Government to introduce legislation to amend the statute by providing that the person filling the office of Solicitor General shall be ex-officio a member of the Privy Council?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Not that I am aware
of. As I understand the matter, the position of solicitor general remains precisely what it was. Hon. Arthur Meighen has become a member of the Privy Council, but the position of Solicitor General in itself has not been altered; his appointment to the Privy Council does not necessarily involve the Solicitor General ex officio being a member of the Cabinet.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I understand, then,
that the Solicitor General has been made, in persona, a member of the Privy Council,
and that no legislation affecting the Solicitor General in this respect will be introduced.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not think any is contemplated at this time; as to what may be done in the future, I am not in a position to say.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I regard Mr. New-combe as one of the ablest men in the Dominion, and I think he performs his duties with satisfaction to the country. I should like to know what is the status of tiie Solicitor General in the Department of Justice.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The statute governing
the office of Solicitor General does not, I think, go further than to say that the Solicitor General shall perform such duties in connection with the Department of Justice as may be assigned to him.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Has the Solicitor
General done any court work during the past year on behalf of the Government?


Charles Joseph Doherty: He has appeared for
the Government in quite a number, of cases since he took office-whether within the last twelve months I should not like to say positively offhand.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I understand that
the duties of court work, so far as the Department of Justice is concerned, are performed largely by the deputy minister. Has the Solicitor General devoted any special attention to court work?


Charles Joseph Doherty: He has devoted attention to certain eases; whether it would be called special attention I would not undertake to say. Up to the present time cases that have gone to Privy Council and cases heard before the Supreme Court have, as a rule, been handled by the deputy minister.
Expenses of litigated matters conducted within the Department of Justice, $13,000.


George Perry Graham: Are there any cases to
go to Privy Council this year?


Charles Joseph Doherty: At the present moment I should not like to say positively. We have just disposed of the references with regard to companies, and one or two other cases; I think these are the only ones actually pending before that court.


George Perry Graham: Is the minister settling
with the Ontario Government the question of water-powers, or is it going to the Privy Council? -


Charles Joseph Doherty: Two cases are pending with regard to water-powers; they have not

as yet come before the courts of this country. We are negotiating with a view to arriving, if possible, at a settlement of those cases.


William Pugsley: What influences me particularly in asking as to this is the fact that the Minister of Finance has assured us that there are some thirty millions of dollars in these Estimates which will not be required next year. I am not sure whether we have any means of compelling the Government to tell us, I have not much confidence in our strength and ability to force the Government to do the reasonable thing when they are determined to do what is unreasonable, but we want to know, if we can find out in some way from some minister, how that thirty millions is made up. Do any of the items of the Minister of Justice form part of it? Has he informed the Minister of Finance that any part of his items are not to be expended? We have tried to get the. information from the Prime Minister, and he is going to see the Minister of Finance. If the Minister of Justice can assure us that he will exert his best efforts to get that information for us, and will give a list of items which will not be expended, it will save many days' investigation of these accounts, because we would not then question the Government about this thirty millions.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I have no reason to suppose that any item contained in my Estimates was included in the thirty millions. I made no statement of the kind to the Minister of Finance. The only instances where I am not prepared to say it is intended to spend the money are cases in reference to which one has to take an approximate amount, as for instance where we may- not have as much litigation this year as last.


George Perry Graham: Then this department may be eliminated from the thirty millions?


Mr. CARROLL:: Is the Department of Justice furnishing counsel in the case of McGillivray and the Sydney Pilotage Commission? McGillivray was a pilot, and was dismissed after the election, presumably for partisanship. He sued the Commission for wages, etc., before the Supreme Court. He succeeded in the lower court, but lost his case on appeal in the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia. He finally won in the Supreme Court of Canada, and I was given to understand the Commission had the assistance of the Justice Department in the furnishing of counsel.
.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I can safely say we have not employed counsel in connection with the case. That would come under the Marine Department and it would be only on their recommendation that we would employ counsel. The expense would be borne by that department if counsel was employed.
Annual contribution Canadian Daw Dibrary, London Eng., $1,000.


William Pugsley: While this is not large, might it not very well be struck out? There is connected with the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council a splendid library available for all lawyers, and I understand that this is a library in a private office.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think the system has been changed and that the books are now kept at Downing street where the Privy Council sits. It has been found to be of great advantage and a great convenience to Canadian lawyers appearing before the Privy Council to have these books gathered together in' one group. Out of the $1,000, such additions as are pecessary from time to time to keep the library up are made. This amount has been voted for several years past and I think that the advantage to Canadian counsel fully justifies it.


William Pugsley: While the amount is
not large, there are over a thousand items in the estimates and in the aggregate they *in to a very large sum. This has been voted for some years, but we never had a war on until now. The position of Canada has never been so desperate, 'Canada has never been in so distressed a condition as to-day. Unusal and enormous taxes are being levied on the people and poverty *and distress axe spread all over the country. Some people say Canada is prosperous. It is not prosperous. Certain industries are prosperous. But real estate, for instance, is greatly depressed and vast numbers of people are in a position that is everything else but prosperous. We are imposing heavy taxes to meet the war expenditures and interest and yet we are proposing to give a thousand dollars for additional books for a Canadian law library in London for the convenience of counsel going there to argue cases before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Every lawyer who has argued cases before the Judicial Committee knows that there is a magnificent library connected with that committee adjoining the room in which the argument is carried

on. The books there are aecesible to every lawyer; messengers are in attendance to bring the books out to the reference room and there is every facility for studying the cases which it may be necessary to study in order to properly argue cases before the committee. Is not this a time to drop unnecessary items of this kind? It is only a thousand dollars, but you will find a vast number of items of the same charter. It would not in any way militate against the public interest if this item were dropped for the present. The amount could be put in after the war is over, when good times return.


John Douglas Hazen: My experience before the
Judicial Committee, so far as books are concerned, is entirely different. I found the greatest difficulty in getting books to refer to there. On one occasion when I was appealing against a judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada I wished to refer to judgments of that court, and I found that I had to go outside and make long extracts and bring them in. I could find no library in the room adjoining the committee room. While I was Attorney General of New Brunswick I was asked to supply a copy of the New Brunswick reports for the use at the Privy Council of lawyers who went from Canada. I was informed that the other provinces of Canada were being asked to do the same thing and that the same request was being made of the Government of Canada with regard to reports of the Supreme Court of Canada. If I remember correctly we sent a copy for the purpose of having them placed in a room adjoining the Judicial Committee room. My experience is entirely different from that of my hon. friend.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend must
have been very timid and modest.


John Douglas Hazen: I always am, of course.


William Pugsley: And perhaps the gentleman in charge looked too dignified for my hon. friend to approach him. I had no difficulty. I told him what books I wanted and he got them for me.


Charles Joseph Doherty: It was just part of the magnificent library the hon. member enjoyed that we are now dealing with. The Imperial Government furnishes us a place to keep the books and they are kept and cared for, and, as I have said, we try to keep up the supply of books.
As the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has said the provinces supply their own
statutes, and I think there is every reason to believe the hon. gentleman was enjoying the advantage of that library.


William Pugsley: At the time I was there the Canadian library was kept in another part of the city, and was connected with the office of Mr. Blake.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The Impeded Government are furnishing for that library caretakers to look after our books, and the provinces are contributing books which are especially useful to us. However distressful our condition may be at the present time, I hardly think We ought to take the position of saying to the Imperial authorities : you can go on maintaining our library, looking after our books, and providing books that are necessary to us, while we do nothing. I think, on reflection, the hon. member will see that even in our present condition we ought to make this expenditure for the sake of our self-respect, as well as for the advantage of those of our counsel who go there to conduct cases.


William Pugsley: If my hon. friend cannot see his way clear to cut down this item I would like to know where we are going to begin to save the $30,000,000 which the Minister of Finance said we ought to be able to save.	.


Arthur Bliss Copp: On whose advice are the books selected that we are asked to pay fOT?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not know that there is any body specially appointed to advise as to the books. The department here have communicated with the librarian with regard to those required, and I believe that the deputy minister has expressed his opinion upon the desirability of particular books. Not improbably, counsel attending the library might make representations as to certain books; I cannot say positively, but the expenditure for books, and the keeping up of reports, which have to be maintained from year to year, is not very considrable.


Mr. McCRANEY:: Who administers the money; is it paid out from the department, or is it placed in the hands of the librarian to be expended by him?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The money necessary
to purchase any books is paid from here.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Did I understand the minister to say that part of this money went to the librarian for taking care of the books, indexing, cataloguing and so on?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to give the names of the individuals to whom this money has been paid. If the hon. gentleman would like to have the details, I shall he glad to furnish them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It would be quite a different thing if, as I understand now from the minister that part of this money would go to the librarian for looking after the library, and cataloguing books.


Charles Joseph Doherty: A sum of $250 is paid for the maintenance of the library, and apart from that, books are purchased according as they arer required. As a matter of fact, I understand that it may not be necessary to spend the whole of the $1,000.


William Pugsley: How much was spent
last year?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Last year, there was
only $250 spent; no additional books were bought.


William Pugsley: And that was in time of peace.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not know whether we need more or less books in time of war.


William Pugsley: In connection with the Judicial Committee there ought to be a library worthy of the Empire. Counsel go there from all parts of the Empire to argue appeals, and a great many eminent English lawyers are engaged in the arguments as well. Surely in that library there ought to be the ordinary text books and reports of the courts of the Empire as well as English reports. If it is simply a matter of getting statutes from the different provinces, these could be furnished free of charge, and reports of the different provinces would not cost very much. But it-is absurd that each country should be contributing to the upkeep of an Imperial library in the city of London in connection with the Judicial Committee.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Are we not part of the Empire, and should we not pay a part of the upkeep of the Imperial library, particularly when it is useful to ourselves?


William Pugsley: We have here the Supreme Court of Canada, and who
11 p.m. would ever think of asking the province of New Brunswick, say, to pay for keeping up a library in connection with that court.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: This is one of the
items which drifted into the estimates in times of plenty, when it was not necessary
.
to scrutinize them so closely as now, or to pursue a policy of economy. If there are in these Estimates items amounting to $30,000,000 which can be saved, as the Minister of Finance said, surely this is one of them.
Consolidation and publication of Reports, Orders in Council and correspondence upon Provincial Legislation since 1905, $500.


William Pugsley: Was the amount ail
expended last year?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I understand that this is a revote; it was not spent last year.


William Pugsley: Surely this might be dropped.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think the hon. gentleman will understand the importance of our preserving the reports upon the statutes of the different provinces, and the correspondence with regard to them. As the hon. gentleman knows, the statutes of the different provinces have to be passed upon each year from the point of view of determining whether there is anything that calls for disallowance. In that connection, questions not infrequently arise of very general interest. I think this country can afford $500 to provide for the compilation and publication of those reports.


William Pugsley: If this is so important, why was not the amount spent last year?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Important matters do
not present themselves for determination every year. Some years the Provincial Statutes, while they have to be carefully examined, do not call for any special observation. Other years serious questions present themselves as to disallowance, and I think it would be unfortunate if we left ourselves without provision, where such questions did arise and had to be passed upon, to preserve the decisions passed upon the statutes. For instance, when we have to deal with these questions, the pronouncements of previous Ministers of Justice on statutes with regard to which similar questions have been determined are invaluable to us. The compilation is very useful, and I think it would be unfortunate if we left ourselves without provision to continue it in case it should be necessary.


George Perry Graham: Before the committee
rises I should like to ask a question. I have seen an item in the newspapers that application has been made to the Privy Council in reference to certain Ontario

legislation known as bi-lingualism. Is there any truth in that report?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Not to my knowledge, and I think I would have heard of the application if it had been made.


George Perry Graham: I saw it in the papers.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Many items that appear in the papers are not true.


George Perry Graham: It seems that the attitude of ministers in regard to the Estimates will resolve into this: each minister will adhere to his Estimates, and the Finance Minister will finally have to explain to the country how he came to make the mistake in his Budget of $30,000,000. None of his colleagues seem prepared to help him carry out his promise.


Robert Rogers: It will all be susceptible of explanation at the end of the session.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. R.. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.
Tuesday, February 22, 1916.