1916-05-01

REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
Annual report of the Topographical Surveys Branch for the year ended March 31, wi5.-Mr. Roche.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 96, for the relief of David Whim-sfer Rhodes.-Mr. Boys.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved the first reading of Bill No 96, respecting rentals payable to the

Mount Royal Tunnel and Terminal Company, Limited.
Mr. GRAHAM:: This is a Government
Bill; will some one on the Government side explain?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: As I understand it, this is really a declaratory Bill to make perfectly plain the provisions of an Act passed about two years ago, and as to which some legal point has been taken.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Robert Laird Borden: I am informed by the Deputy Minister of Militia and Defence that Private Wallace, whose case was brought to the attention of the House by the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) has received his discharge, being under age. With regard to another matter which was mentioned, the case of Private Dougall Curry, there has been received a further telegram dated 26th April, and addressed to the Adjutant General from the General Officer Commanding the Military District. The telegram reads as follows:
Reference headquarter telegram of 24th O-apt. Calder states delay in seeing Dougall Curry caused by not getting word from hospital until noon following day. Impossible to say what person or persons are exactly responsible for this delay. Formerly one of hospital staff always notified him when military patient was admitted. In this case nurses say they did not know whom to notify. Captain Munro states he was unab'e to get St. Joseph Hospital by telephone till li a.m. following day owing to the line being out of order.
With regard to the case mentioned by the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles), I am informed by the Deputy Minister of Militia that a telegram has been sent to the commanding officer requesting an immediate investigation and report by wire. I am also informed, with regard to the case mentioned by the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), that an investigation has been ordered and is now in progress.


Mr. KNOWLES:: I presume the officer
to whom the telegram was sent i'n the matter to which I referred was an officer at Winnipeg?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could
not say at the moment.


William Erskine Knowles: Surely not the officer
who was implicated, in case the rumour is correct?


Robert Laird Borden: The report that came .to me was that an investigation in the ordinary course had been ordered. I shall ascertain as to the character of the investigation and the person by whom it is to be made.


William Erskine Knowles: The Prime Minister
said that a wire had been sent to the officer asking for a report. I presume it goes without saying that the report will not be made by the officer upon whom I have made my observations.


Robert Laird Borden: If I remember the memorandum I had before me, it spoke not only of a report but of an investigation.



EMPLOYEES OF SOULANGES CANAL-CHARGE OF PARTISANSHIP.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I am informed from the county of Soulanges that at the convention which took place last week for the selection of a Conservative candidate in the pending provincial election, the superintendent of the canal, his whole staff, and the employees of the canal, attended the convention and took part in it. I have always understood that the policy of this Government was that there should be no offensive partisanship on the part of employees of the Government, and I call the attention of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister to the matter.
-Sir ROBERT BORDEN:	I will direct
the attention of the Acting Minister of Railways and Canals to it at once.



EXTENSION OF TERM OF PARLIAMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM:	On Friday last, in the absence of the Prime Minister, I inquired what had become of the joint resolution of the two Houses of Parliament praying that an amendment be made to the British North America Act providing for the extension of the life of Parliament. AVould the Prime Minister give us some information with regard to that matter?
Robert Laird Borden: It was sent forward at once by the Governor General. I also wrote Sir George Perley, enclosing copies of the debates on the subject that
204*
had taken place in this House and in the Senate, that he might be afforded any necessary information as to the grounds upon which the resolution had proceeded.. I understand that it is in progress over there, but I do not know what progress has been made. Everything that was necessary to be done, as far as the Government is concerned, has been done.



FENIAN RAID BOUNTY.

Mr. BOIVIN:: I wish to ask the hon. Acting Minister of Militia and Defence if applications for the Fenian Raid bounty will be considered if made prior to the expiry of the delay fixed by the Government, which, I think, was on the 31st July last, but from persons who were unable, before that date, to make the required proof.


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot give my hon. friend an answer at the moment, but I will make inquiry of the deputy minister as to what the policy of the department has been, and give an answer as soon as possible.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	How many persons are employed by the Secretary of State's Department as translators, apart from the official and permanent staff?
2.	What are their names, occupations, residences and salaries?
3.	Is one Arthur SauvS so employed as a special or other translator?
4.	If so, is the said Arthur Sauvfi the member for the county of Two Mountains in the Quebec Legislature?
5.	Who recommended him as translator, and on what date?
6.	What is the character of the documents that have been sent to the said Arthur Sauvfi for translation at his home?
7.	What amount has such translation cost, and how much has the said Arthur Sauvfi received to date on account of such translation?


Mr. BLONDIN:: 1.	There are no persons employed in the Department of the Secretary of State of Canada as translators.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Arthur. Sauve is not employed by the
Department of the Secretary of State of Canada.	,
4.	5, 6 and 7. Answered by No. 3.


ENLISTED CIVIL SERVANTS-SEPARATION ALLOWANCE.
Mr. PARDEE:: Do the wives of civil servants who have enlisted, whether as privates or officers, receive a separation allowance?


Robert Laird Borden: No, unless the civil service foregoes his Civil 'Government salary, in which case he would draw all military pay and allowances.


WAR SUPPLIES-PURCHASES IN ALBERTA.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Who were the persons employed in purchasing horses, hay and oats in Alberta for the Department of Militia ?
2.	How much were they paid in each case?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	Lieut.-Colonel A. D. McRae.
2.	Pay of rank and expenses.


NEW RICHMOND WEST POST OFFICE.
Mr. MARCIL:: Has the Postmaster General decided to reopen the New Richmond West post office? If not, why not?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: The question of the reopening of the New Richmond West postoffice has been under consideration. As far as can be at present ascertained, there does not appear to be any urgent necessity for reopening this office. The department has obtained the opinion of 86 householders, the majority of whom are in favour of rural mail delivery. Fifteen families located on range 5 have not yet been visited. They are, however, said to be in favour of rural mail delivery since they are far from any posit office at all. The former patrons of the New Richmond West post office ask that the office may be reopened to be served by special courier from New Richmond as heretofore. They do not accept as satisfactory any supply thereof by the rural mail delivery courier. All the patrons of the New Richmond West post office, with the exception of 10, though residing immediately on as well as being within the scope of letter carrier delivery, could easily subscribe for boxes if they are so disposed.


EMPLOYMENT OF ROBERT E. STEDMAN.
Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: 1.	Was Robert E. Steelman employed by the Army Service Corps at Regina at any time since the commencement of the war? If so, in what capacity was he employed?
2.	What wages did the said Robert E. Sted-man receive, and what were his duties in such employment?
fMr. Blondin.)


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	Yes, as private in No. 20 company, Canadian Army Service Corps.
2.	$1.10 per diem pay and 75c subsistence.


LEVIS DRILL HALL.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	How much per toise did the stone used for the military drill hall sidewalk at LSvis cost?
2.	By whom was such stone supplied, and what amount was paid therefor?
3.	How many toise of stone were supplied for the said sidewalk?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	No price asked for per toise.
2.	Jos. St. Pierre; amount paid, $862.50.
3.	No price per toise, ;but price per cubic yard obtained from Jos. St. Pierre was $1.50.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Oliver.-For a return showing all transactions entered into by the Government of Canada to clear up squatter's rights to the Banff Hot Springs; together with a statement of payments made on such account, and to whom paid.
Mr. McCrea.-For a copy of all Orders ini Council, departmental orders, and of ail correspondence in respect of the embargo on the export of tan bark from Canada to United States.
Mr. Graham.-For a copy of the lease made by the Militia Department, or other department of the Government, with Lindsay and McCluskey, for a building situated in the town of North Bay.
Mr. Michaud.-For a copy of all correspondence between the Minister of Justice, the mayor of the town of Edmundston, N.B., the police magistrate of the said town, and others, in reference to one Antoine Levesque.
Mr. Buchanan.-For a copy of all papers, telegrams, letters and other documents in connection with the decision to locate an interior storage elevator at Calgary, Alberta.
Mr. Buchanan.-For a copy of all correspondence and papers relating to the change in the location of the post office at Roseberg. Alta.
Mr. Devlin.-For a copy of all papers, correspondence, documents, petitions and communications between the Post Office Department and the postmaster, or any other person, in connection with the Aylmer, Quebec, post office, received or sent by the department since October, 1911, relating to complaints, changes or dismissals and appointments to the said post office.
Mr. Ethier.-For a return showing the names of the tenderers for the different mail carrying contracts in connection with the rural mail delivery recently established in the county of Two Mountains; the amount of each of such tenders, the name of each tenderer to whom a contract has been granted, and the price to be paid to him if there were any contracts given without tender; if so, to whom, for how much, and on whose recommendation; if any indemnity has been allowed to mail conductors for the transportation of rural mail boxes; if so.

to whom, and for what amount; if any indemnity was allowed to any mail conductors who had discontinued the service before the expiration of the three months' notice required by the contracts for the carrying of mails, if so, to whom, and for what amount?

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden (Acting Minister of Militia), the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolutions, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair:
1.	That it is. expedient to provide that a sum not exceeding two hundred and fifty million dollars ($250,000,000) be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses that may be incurred by or under the authority of the Governor in Council during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1917, for:
(a)	The defence and security of Canada;
(b)	The conduct of naval or military operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	Promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or otherwise;
(d)	The carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the Governor in Council in consequence of the existence of a state of war; and
(e)	Payments made for the said purposes during the fiscal years ending respectively the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen and th6
- thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, in excess of the amounts authorized by the War Appropriation Act, 1914, and the War Appropriation Act, 1915.
2.	That the Governor in Council be empowered to raise by way of loan, temporary or otherwise, such sums of money as are required for the purpose of making any payment authorized by any Act founded on these resolutions.
3.	That the principal raised by way of loan under this Act and the interest thereon shall be chargeable on the Consolidated Revenue Fund.
Right Hon.   S@: Before the consideration of this resolution is taken up in the ordinary way, it is desirable that I should give some explanations which may naturally be expected at. this stage. In the	first,
place I desire to point out that the work of the Department of Militia and Defence before the war began was of an insignificant character and volume, as compared with the work it has been called upon to undertake since August, 1914, and particularly during the past year, when our forces have been so greatly augmented. Before the war the organization of that department was designed for dealing with a permanent force of about 3,000, which was under arms during the whole period' of the year, and the training of from 50,000 to
60,000	men, for varying periods, usually
from twelve to sixteen days during the year. The organization was adequate for that purpose; and the Headquarters Staff was organized for dealing with a somewhat larger force in case of war. The organization, however, was entirely inadequate in the first instance for the tremendous strain which was thrown upon it by the events of the war. We all recall that within six weeks after the war broke out a force of 33,000 men was mobilized at Valcartier camp, organized, trained, and equipped ready for active service. It went overseas early in October, 1914, with a surplus of guns and ammunition which were placed at the service of the Imperial Government.
The necessities of the war have, from time to time, called for very large increases in our forces, and as the Orders in Council authorizing these increases have been laid on the table of the House in printed form, and are available to hon. gentlemen, I need not recount them. The enlistments have proceeded upon a scale far beyond what any of us had in mind in August, 1914. Up to the 15th of April of the present year the total number of men enlisted was 309,616, of whom 102,455 joined the colours between the 1st day of January and the 15th day of April.	.
If we compare the organization which the Department of Militia and Defence has been thus called upon to undertake, with the military organization of the whole Empire before the war broke out, we shall have some adequate idea of the burden and the responsibility imposed upon the Government of this country, and especially upon the Minister of Militia and Defence, and the officers of his department. For example, the establishment of the British regular army, according to a statement which has been handed to me by General Gwatkin, Chief of the General Staff, amounted, before the war, to 127,368 men in Great Britain; in India (including only British troops) 77,317 men and distributed in different parts of the Empire other than the British Isles and India, 49,076, or a total of 253,762.
That constituted the regular army of the United Kingdom; but to that of course must be added the establishment of native troops in 'India. Excluding the native troops in India, it will be seen that the total forces of the Empire, as organized in the United Kingdom, were some
60,000	less than the number of troops which have been enlisted in Canada for active service overseas and .otherwise,

steps have been taken and machinery has been provided for the purpose of co-ordinating the work of this branch of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in Canada with similar work which is necessarily carried on in Great Britain and in France.
I now take up the work of the Assistant Adjutant General No. 2, Lieut.-Col. Palmer. The memorandum that I have before me contains the information that since the war no change has been made in the organization of this division, but it has been expanded to meet requirements as .far as possible. The work has been increased by the provisional appointments of officers to units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and by the large number of new appointments to the Canadian Militia, as all officers before joining a unit of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, if they do not'already belong to the Canadian Militia, are appointed to some unit thereof. There are now some 11,000 or 12,000 officers in the Canadian Expeditionary Force. The Assistant Adjutant General No. 2 has himself dealt with all provisional appointments, promotions and retirement of officers in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and all correspondence relating thereto. As units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force sail for England, lists of officers are mailed in duplicate to His Royal Highness the Governor General; the Secretary of the War Office, London, England; the General Officer Commanding Canadians, Shorncliffe; the Officer in charge, Canadian Records, London, Eng.; the Director of Recruiting and Organiation, Folkestone.
-The next part of the organization to which I direct attention is the administration of the medical branch. It is not necessary to advert to what that organization was in time of peace. The general organization remains practically the same throughout Canada. The Central Army Medical School has been discontinued, as well as the Central Laboratory of Hygiene, the work carried out by these organizations being now dealt with in military districts. Civil hospitals have been largely utilized throughout Canada for the oare of the sick, as the military hospitals available were not sufficient for the sick in troops mobilized. The Central Medical Stores remain in operation, and all technical medical equipment for overseas units is supplied through them. The arrangements for the purchase of medical supplies generally has been somewhat

changed, as the War Purchasing Commission now carries out all such purchases.
The Permanent Army Medical Corps has sent overseas most of its officers and nursing sisters and a number of non-commissioned officers and men, leaving, for the most part, the carrying out of the medical services in Canada to the Army Medical Corps.
The organization of the Army Medical (Corps remains the same, with the exception that the dental surgeons are now no longer a part of the Army Medical Corps, but are a special corps.
All medical officers are now appointed to the Army Medical Corps, and are not of the regimental service. Medical units of the active militia have been kept on foot, but increased efforts have been given to securing personnel for overseas medical units.
Voluntary aid detachments have been formed and registered as applied for.
The general scheme of the organization has provided sufficient machinery to carry on the medical services in Canada, but a great deal of inconvenience has been experienced owing to the medical officers most experienced in military matters having been sent overseas with the earliest contingents. Newly appointed officers have been called upon to fill posts for which they have had little training.
Training depots for the Army Medical Corps, to provide reinforcements for the overseas Canadian Army Medical Corps have been established in military districts 1, 2, 4, 10, 11, 13. In addition to providing reinforcements, they assist in carrying on the medical services, especially in places where a medical officer of the Army Medical Cbrps is not available.
Civilian medical practitioners have in many cases been utilized to carry out the medical examination of recruits. There has been no lack t>f officers, nursing sisters, and men for this branch of the service.
The establishing of the Military Hospitals* Commission really creates a new division of the medical service, and had this not been established the Medical Service would have had, to a large extent, to carry on the work which that Commission is now performing. The organization of the medical services was such that the securing of sufficient personnel and allcting them to various duties has been more necessary than the establishing of special new divisions.
The duties of medical officers, as far as

Canada is concerned, compared with the duties of medical officers in time of peace, have been very greatly increased, and with special reference to the care of troops on active service.
The selection of officers for various duties has been made with due regard to their special qualifications and experience, but, in most cases, personnel of all ranks has had to be trained for the duties to be performed.
In speaking of the co-ordination of the Service in Canada with the services overseas, the following observations are to be made from the report which I hold in my hand:
The machinery at present utilized to coordinate the work of the medical services in Canada with that overseas has been the medium of letters, cables, reports, etc., passed between the office of the Director General of Medical Services and the Director of Medical Services, Canadian Expeditionary Force. In every case where problems arising in Canada appear to have any bearing on those overseas, the Director of Medical Services, Canadian Expeditionary Force, is communicated with.
I shall now allude briefly to the Teport regarding the Canadian Army Dental Corps.
The Canadian Army Dental Corps service is divided into two branches, the one dealing with the services necessary to the recruit on enlistment and the soldier in training; the other with the casualty branch or that dealing with the returned, wounded, and invalided soldier.
I have been informed, not only from this report but during my visit overseas last summer, that the value of the work of this corps can hardly he over estimated. It is a service I believe, to which not very great attention was given in the British establishment before the outbreak of the war, and I am informed that there is less attention paid to this subject by the British military authorities than has been thought desirable in this country. The report goes on to observe:
In the early months of the Corps' existence its time was largely taken up wth the first branch, viz., treatment of recruits and soldiers in training, but, as is inevitable in a war of this kind, the casualty branch has been increased by leaps and bounds, while the former service has not been lessened in the smallest degree.
With regard to the evolution and development of this corps, the report continues:
With the proportion of men rejeoted on enlistment, greater, for dental defects, than for any other cause, the need for just such a unit as the Canadian Army Dental Corps impressed itself on the authorities. So important have been its services that the disability existing at first, in regard to enlistment, has been entirely removed and tens of thousands of men are serving in the trenches to-day who owe their presence there to these. very services.
The personnel of- the Corps has increased from the modest beginnings of 57 to the number of almost 1,000 to-day. New divisions have been created overseas and a corresponding increase in our Corps takes place with each new division. The total personnel for each new division is 96. The duties cover dental services to every unit in the service, wherever permission can be obtained to post Canadian Army Dental Corps officers.
No provision had been made at the inception of the Corps for its services to be utilized in Canada, and this has been since done, and the Canadian force now consists of nearly 400 all told.
Practically all the administrative work falls on the office of the Corps Headquarters, Ottawa, and the difficulties of administration in a unit whose territory extends from Victoria, B.C., to Great Britain, France, Cairo in Egypt, and Salonika are easily discernible.
Dental history sheets have been provided so that where a man goes overseas before having his work completed, the uncompleted portion is carried out on his arrival over there.


Charles Marcil: Would the right hon. gentleman give us some information about the transfer to the Government of France of Canadian hospitals in France? T saw by a newspaper report the other day that Sir George Perley, the High Commissioner for Canada, had gone to France to be present at the ceremony of transferring these hospitals.


Robert Laird Borden: In the answer I am about to give I shall not speak of the hospitals which form part of the regular establishment of an army in the field. We have, of course, hospitals of 4 p.m. that character, which have been established in France from the first. I saw no fewer than five of them when I was in France last summer, and nearly all, at that time, were near Boulogne. But in addition to that we have three hospitals to which probably my hon. friend alludes. One of them, under the command of Colonel Mignault, is at St. Cloud, and that hospital has been placed entirely at the disposal of the French Government. It is true that Sir George Perley went to France to be present at the opening of the hospital, and I think that occasion was also honoured by the presence of the President of the French Republic. That hospital has been placed entirely at the disposal of the French Government to be used for French soldiers who have been wounded at the front and require hospital care.


Charles Marcil: The Canadian staff is
retained?


Robert Laird Borden: Oh yes. The staff is entirely Canadian; in fact entirely French Canadian.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Is that not the gift of the Canadian Government to the French Government?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, that ds the gift of the Canadian Government to the French Government. The arrangements were made for it last summer while I was overseas.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is there not also another hospital at Dinard?


Robert Laird Borden: There is also another hospital at Boulogne and one at Dinard. Of the three hospitals, the one at St. Cloud is a Freneh-Canadian hospital, as I have explained. The efficers, surgeons, every one connected with it, are from the province of Quebec. That hospital has been accepted by the French Government and is maintained by the Government of Canada. There are two others to which my hon. friend perhaps alludes, at Boulogne and Dinard. One of these ie a hospital which was organized by the University of McGill, and the other one is a FrencffiCanadian hospital, organized somewhat along the line, I suppose, of the hospital at St. Cloud. So there are these three hospitals, in addition to the regular establishment of military hospitals necessary for the purposes of to army in the field. I am very glad indeed that they have been established. I am sure that not only the British Government but the French Government as well have received their establishment with a great deal of appreciation, and I am also confident that their work will be up to the highest standard, and will reflect credit not only upon those who are responsible for their management but upon this country as a whole.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The reason I mentioned Dinard is that I have received letters from a French friend, who is also a friend of Canada, being a large investor in the West, and he speaks most highly of the Canadian hospital at Dinard. He says it its a most creditable institution.


Robert Laird Borden: My experience of the Canadian hospitals that I had the honour to visit while I was overseas, corresponds entirely with what my hon. friend has Just said. I do not know that there are anywhere in Europe to-day hospitals better organized or betteT equipped than

the hospitals established by Canada, including the three I have alluded to.
The next branch to which T shall refer is the Record Office. I have very voluminous reports here with regard to that branch. It is difficult to appreciate the enormous amount of work which devolves upon that particular office unless one is brought closely in touch with it. In time of peace the Record office itself has an establishment of four clerks. It has now an establishment of 360 clerks. The separation allowance branch had no organization before the war; that branch has now a staff of 270. To illustrate the amount of work that some of these departments have to perform, I was informed to-day by the Accountant and Paymaster General that in connection with the assigned pay and separation allowances, no less than 5,000 cheques have to be issued daily, while
1,000	letters have to be written daily. Then there is the Contracts Branch. In time of peace it consisted of a personnel of 30; this has been increased to 250, all of whom are working very hard, as I am informed. The Accountant's Branch in time of peace had a personnel of 35; to-day is has a personnel of 108. The Superintendent of Stationery Branch in time of peace had a personnel of 10; to-day it has a personnel of 24. At the outbreak of war all these branches had a personnel of 79. To-day they number 1,042. In many of these ' branches, a great deal of the work has to be done at all hours of the day and night. For example, the separation and assigned pay branch is obliged to work in three shifts of eight hours each; because the work has to proceed during the whole 24 hours.
However, I was going to speak of the work of the Record Branch more particularly. I must omit the greater part of the report which I have received, but there are a few details to which attention should be directed. The staff works in two shifts; the day staff from 8.30 a.m. to 5 p.m., and the night staff from 5.30 p.m. till midnight, and often later, when the work of the office requires it. Each section is in chaige of a clerk specially selected to supervise its work, who is assisted, when necessary, by other senior clerks.
It is further observed that when the troops proceeded to France and the casualties commenced to come in, it became necessary to engage a special staff of typists for night work, owing to the fact that practically all cablegrams reporting casualties

reached the department after 6 p.m. The next of kin in each case are informed of the casualty by telegram, and an arrangement has been arrived at with both telegraph companies to report to the Record Office when delivery had been made, thus ensuring that no information relating to any casualty is communicated to the pub-lie press until the next of kin has received notification. For some months the work of the Record Office was carried on under great difficulties, owing to the fact that the available space in the department was very limited, and this handicap was felt severely when some 6,000 casualties were reported at the battles of St. Julien and Langemarck. Notwithstanding this, however, by working until between 3 and 4 a.m. each day, they were handled at the rate of not less than 500 per day. The particulars on each attestation paper are recorded on a card, so as to render the information readily accessible, not only for the purpose of furnishing information to the next of kin, but also to enable inquiries from all parts of the Dominion, which average 150 per' day, to be promptly answered. At the present time over 200,000 index cards have been written and filed in alphabetical order.
The discharge documents of men who have been returned to Canada as medically unfit, undesirable, etc., are recordel and filed alphabetically. The particulars in each case are recorded on a card as well as entered on a form specially drawn up for the purpose, which is placed on each man's file, so that the necessary information is readily available for any one who deals with the case. Lists of men discharged in the different districts are received at headquarters daily. These lists are carefully checked and compiled, and a copy is furnished each day to the Military Hospitals Commission, to several branches of the Canadian Patriotic Fund, and to different large firms and companies who are retaining their employees on their pay rolls whilst overseas. A cable is received each week from England giving the names and classifications of all men who are to be returned to Canada as medically unfit, undesirable, or for other cause. Copies have to be made and forwarded to the different officers commanding military districts, to the Military Hospitals Commission, to discharge depots, and to several branches of the Canadian Patriotic Fund, as well as to various staff officers at headquarters. As the number of men enlisted increases, and casualties increase, so does the work in this section increase correspondingly. At present the average number of letters sent out daily is 300, and this number is considerably augmented after each important engagement in which Canadian troops have taken part.
With regard to personal effects and wills, up to a month ago, that is, prior to the organization of the .Estates Branch, all questions relating to personal effects, wills, etc., including the distribution of property, were dealt with in the Record Office. An arrangement was made with all express [DOT] companies operating in the Dominion, to transport in Canada, free of charge, the personal effects of deceased soldiers. There is now, however, a special branch which deals with the estates of deceased soldiers, and which is carried on by competent men and under adequate supervision.
With regard to missing men: at the present time the Record Office is dealing with the cases of men who have been missing for a period of six months or over. The number reported missing, whose next of kin reside in Canada, is about 500. A letter has been written to the next of kin, in each case, asking if any information has been received, from any source, which would lead to the belief that the soldier is still alive. In addition to the letter to each next of kin, a communication is addressed to the officer in charge of records, England, with the view of obtaining like information. From time to time lists of men who are prisoners of war have been prepared and issued to different societies formed especially to look after their welfare. We have taken upon ourselves the responsibility of arranging, through Sir George Perley, that any supplies of necessaries, which may be required by prisoners of war or persons interned in enemy countries, shall be provided for them, and we have received many grateful letters from these unfortunate persons acknowledging the excellence of this arrangement.
Inquiries from insurance companies are very numerous and they include the furnishing of death certificates and certified copies of attestation papers. Extracts have to be made from burial reports, giving the exact date and place of burial and particulars as to the location of the grave, and forwarded to all concerned.
I also have a memorandum in regard to the Pensions and Claims Board, but as that subject is under consideration by a committee of the House I do not think it

necessary to go into it more fully at the moment.
I shall allude very briefly to the duties of the Quartermaster General. The Quartermaster General is responsible for a great number of services among which are. the following:
(1)	The organization, administration and technical training of all transport, remount, railway supply, barrack, ordnance and veterinary services.
(2)	Settling the reserves of food, clothing, equipment, general stores and material to he held in depots, garrisons or mobilization stores, and the scales of such articles to he in the possession of the troops.
(3)	The patterns of clothing, equipment and ordnance stores.
(4)	Holding and issuing all military stores.
(5)	Compensation for injuries to animals or material.
(6)	Selection of officers for employment in the above services.
(1) Arrangements for postal services.
(8)	Advising and assisting the Deputy Minister, Militia and Defence, in making arrangements for contracts for the above services.
(9)	Preparation, jointly with the Finance Minister of estimates for the above services.
There is a statement in this report as to the personnel of. the staff which I need not read. The duties of the various administrative heads who are connected with this branch may be briefly referred to. For example, the Director General of Supplies and Transports, among 19 different administrative duties, of which he is in charge, deals with the following:
Appropration and occupation of barracks, hospitals, offices, armouries, drill halls, etc.
Supplies of food, forage, paillasse straw, fuel and disenfectants. Questions as to the amount of water or light allowed in barracks, and of the supply of oil, carbide, etc., for the production of light in barracks and camps.
Supply arrangements in connection with mobilization and defence schemes.
Ail questions in connection with transport and conveyance of stores.
Provision, repair and administration of transport vessels'
Arrangements for the execution of postal services in war, and in camps (when necessary).
This branch is represented in each district by an assistant director of supplies and transports, who is, in most instances, an officer of the Canadian Permanent Army Service Corps, and who is in charge of the above services in his district. He is assisted, wherever possible, by a small detachment of officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Canadian Permanent Army Service Corps. The Assistant Director of Supplies and Transports also commands and administers the Active Militia companies of the Army Service Corps ,n his district who are employed in the

annual training camps in carrying out the necessary administrative services. There is also a statement of the other officers connected with the service whom I need not specifically mention at the moment. In addition to the duties already enumerated, this director has performed all work in connection with the chartering of ships for the conveyance of troops overseas and the passing of the accounts in connection therewith.
There-is a Director of Supplies and Transport in England, whose duties there are analogous to those of the Director of Supplies and Transport here, viz.: The feeding and transportation of the Canadian troops in England. He has also'charge of the Army Service Corps reinforcements sent from Canada from time to time from which the wastage both in officers and men at the front is supplied. This officer is attached to and comes under the control of the General Officer Commanding Overseas Canadians.	[DOT]
There is also associated with the Quartermaster General's department the general directorship of clothing and equipment. The Director General has charge of some twelve administrative matters but there are only three of them that I need mention:
All questions in connection with clothing and necessaries, such as mobilization reserves, thefts, losses and scales of issues.
Preparation of estimates for clothing and necessaries.
. Disposal of worn-out colours, clothing, etc.
Then there is the Principal Ordnance Officer who has charge of ten cervices, only three of which need be referred to:
The administration, distribution and corps training of the Canadian Ordnance Corps, and inspection of the same.
Preparation of War Office requisitions and contract demands for all clothing and necessaries.
The maintenance of reserves of stores and of mobilization stores.
The principal duties of the Canadian Ordnance Corps are the receiving, storing, accounting for and distribution of all clothing, necessaries, stores, guns, ammunition, vehicles and all other warlike stores except those of a technical medical nature. The corps is also charged with the maintenance and repair of the above stores, etc.	[DOT]
The director of stores has charge of eight different services, to only three of which I shall allude:
The preparation of annual and other esti-matis for all equipment and general stores required for the militia during time of peaes. and

for the Canadian Expeditionary Force during-war. The provision of all sudh equipment and stores, e.g., personal equipment of soldiers, camp equipment, harness and saddlery, tools, signalling equipment, and materials, barrack and hospital stores, miscellaneous stores, etc.
To arrange for the selection, approval and sealing as standards of all patterns to govern future supplies and to provide specifications for same.
Preparation of mobilization store tables and the revision from time to time to govern issues of equipment to units in the field; and the compilation of tables -and other regulations governing issues of equipment and stores to the permanent and non-permanent militia, Rifle Associations and Cadet Corps.
There are also the duties of the Headquarters Branch of the Mechanical Transport Section, Canadian Permanent Army Service Corps. It has charge of twelve services to only a few of which I shall allude:
Administration of Headquarters Detachment, Mechanical Transport Section C.P.A.S.C., including the Mechanical Transport School of Instruction.
Inspection of motor trucks, cars, ambulances, motorcycles, bicycles and spare parts for same.
Motor trucks. The chasses, tires, bodies, cowls, tool boxes, etc., are received from the various manufacturers and are assembled into complete motor trucks for shipment overseas.
Local transport. In conjunction with the testing of motor trucks for overseas, an average of 150 tons per day departmental stores are handled by this branch between the various railroads, inspection rooms and Ordnance stores.
School of Mechanical Transport instruction for officers being ^ sent overseas, previously carried on by the training depot at Toronto, is now directly under this branch and carried on at the Victoria garage.
That gives & very rough and imperfect estimate of the work that is being carried on under the direction of the Quartermaster General.
I next come to the work of the Master General of the Ordnance. The organization of this branch resolves itself into two divisions or directorates, supervised by (1) Director of Artillery, (2) Director General of Engineer Services. In regard to the organization since the war I have the following observations in a report from Brigadier General Elliott:
No changes in the organization have been made since the commencement of the war, except that the Master General of the Ordnance also performs the duties of the Director of Artillery, the latter officer being on service in France. An Inspector of Artillery Stores, with an assistant, has been added to the branch. The work has increased enormously but the present staff has so far been able to cope with it by working much longer hours.
The development that' has taken place since the commencement of the war is
divided into two main branches: (1) the mobilization and training of the various units and drafts of engineers for overseas; (2) Engineer Services-construction and maintenance of military works and buildings as in peace time, with the addition of housing of troops mobilized in Canada in winter, and fitting up their training areas in summer, as, for example, at Valcartier and the various training oamps in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.
The total trained and sent overseas amounts to 322 officers and 6,321 non-commissioned officers and men. For this purpose an Engineer Training Depot was organized in Ottawa, where all non-commissioned officers and men were sent from districts to be trained before proceeding overseas. __The officers are drawn from the existing peace units of engineer and regimental lists.
In addition, a School of Signals is attached to the Training Depot to train and provide the signal units and drafts.
In addition to the duties carried out by the Engineer Services in .peace time, much extra work has been entailed in the arranging for housing of troops in winter, fitting up large training camps, which continue for about five months, and the construction of certain fortifications, defence lights and munition buildings not otherwise provided for. To co-ordinate the work of this branch in England and in France in its relation to the Canadian Expeditionary Force, an Engineer Training Depot has also been organized at Shorncliffe, England, to further train and make up the engineer units for the front.
Owing to the immense drain on engineer personnel, the staffs .have been reduced to a minimum, and this entails a greatly increased amount of work at Militia Headquarters. Nevertheless, the difficult and responsible duties have been satisfactorily carried out by all ranks, more especially that of housing of the troops.
Then there is a Small Arms Inspection Branch at Quebec, charged with the duties of inspection of all materials for the manufacture of small arms and ammunition, also machine guns, instructional and other stores. They have the custody of sealed patterns, specifications, samples, standard gauges, drawings, and models of all stores to be inspected. They conduct firing proofs of small arms and small arms ammunition. Inspections are also carried out at factories.-
So far as the Dominion arsenal at

Quebec is concerned, the personnel consists of a superintendent, one assistant superintendent, and one medical officer; also a supernumerary staff consisting of chemist and staff, including laboratory foreman, and foremen of the different departments of the arsenal. Since the commencement of the war, in addition to the woTk devolving upon it in time of peace, the arsenal has manufactured a greatly increased quantity of field gun ammunition and stores in connection with the inspection and proof of War Office ammunition; also material for the training of the Expeditionary Force. On account of the large amount of additional work devolving upon it the supernumerary staff has had to be increased.	[DOT]
With regard to the work of the Accountant and Paymaster General, there are now five divisions in this branch. The following table shows the number employed in each on three different dates, viz.: August 1, 1914; January 1, 1915; and April 1, 1916:
August January April
1, 1914. 1, 1915. 1, 1916.
Accounts division	14	25	50Pay audit division	10	25	70Separation allowance	and assigned pay	division	42	250Stores audit division...	ii	13	15Pension division. . ..	7Total	35	105	392
At the outbreak of war in August, 1914, there was a Permanent Force of 3,000 troops, and the total Militia expenditure -was at the rate of nearly $12,000,000 a year. There are at present 300,000 troops in the field, and the expenditure has increased to $250,000,000 a year.
There -were no radical changes to be made in the system of carrying on the work, but rather a quick expansion of the one in operation; and the great difficulty at first was to find trained men. There were but few of these to be found, and the only solution was to get the best available, and train them.
Regimental paymasters have been a source of trouble from the start, and still are, but as we have now a number of trained and experienced paymasters we are using some of these as instructors and inspectors, and in this way the situation is improving, as inefficient regimental paymasters are soon discovered and either given instruction or relieved of their duties altogether.
The chief paymaster, Canadian Expedi-
[Sdr Robert Borden.]
tionary Force, London, England, is treated the same as a district paymaster in Canada. Ete is* provided with funds through the High Commissioner, but reports to the Paymaster General, and accounts directly to him for all expenditure.
One or two observations as to the very great stress that has been imposed upon the officers of the department might he useful at the moment. A pretty full memorandum on this subject was prepared in December last. It is very lengthy, and when a copy of it has been prepared, I shall be glad to lay it on the table of the House, but there are one or two extracts I might read to the committee. The Director of Contracts, speaking of the very urgent work of great magnitude that was imposed upon his branch at the outbreak ,of war in connection with the hurried despatch of the first contingent, says:
All this work for the first contingent was therefore disposed of by the ordinary staff, with some additional inspectors and half a dozen additional junior clerics. Of necessity the usual methods, the ordinary safeguards and precautions were not always practicable. In peace time goods were bought usually after competitive tenders had first been obtained, unless the purchase was under a previously made contract still in force. In the early days of the war competitive tenders took much valuable time; sometimes they were got by telephone, occasionally they had to he disposed with. In general, every possible short cut was taken to ensure the prime object-delivery of the goods in time. The hours of work were extended to the uttermost-the working day varied from 10 to 20 hours, and the average must have been at least 70 hours weekly for many months. The continuous strain of working at long tension under great pressure and with the knowledge that the time was far too short to allow proper attention to he given any transaction, even the most important, taxed the nervous and physical strength of all to the limit. Under these circumstances some irregularities were unavoidable, and it is surprising that so few occurred.
He goes on:
The months of February, March and April (of last year) were times of absolute paralysis and congestion. The various parliamentary and other committees of inquiry and investigation absorbed practically all my time and that of the most valuable of my assistants, either in attendance thereon, or in preparation of papers and information called for. The work of the branch remained, perforce, at a standstill; although the necessity for it continued unabated. The arrears thus accumulated took months to overtake, after work was resumed and the staff had been enlarged.
To give an idea of what 'had been imposed upon his branch at the first, the following partial list of clothing, etc., purchased since August 1, 1914, will serve to

give some idea of the magnitude of the business:
Greatcoats, 229,100; cloaks, 70,500; serge jackets, 401,500 ; serge trousers, 298,000; flannel shirts, 650,000 ; suits underwear, 732,000 ; service shirts, 278,000 ; service trousers, 205,700; sweaters, 398,225; socks, 1,969,100; forage caps, 313,000 ; puttees, 474,800 ; caps, comforter, 515,000; blankets, 746,500; boots, 670,000.
These fifteen, items alone have an approximate value of 515,929,845. For the making of uniform cloithing, 9,566,000 yards of various materials have been bought, received, inspected, and re-shipped to the various manufacturers of clothing. These are only a few items amongst thousands dealt with. The value of warlike and other stores bought, as distinguished from clothing, is as great or greater than the clothing; and their range and variety is much greater.
He goes on to deal with the subject of British and foreign contracts. Between August 1, 1914, and May 1, 1915, stores and equipment for British and foreign Governments were bought to a total amount of $41,563,180. A very considerable part of this was for the French, while $1,460,000 was for the Russian, and the balance for the British Government. The contracts in all cases were made in the branch; the supplies inspected and the accounts certified for payment. It will be observed that the foreign business alone was in value three times as great as the ordinary ante-bellum work of the branch for the same time. His summing up is as follows;
The war suddenly increased the work from ten to fifteen times; and this had to be disposed of by a staff absolutely undermanned at first and never large enough during the whole period now under review, and hampered by lack of time, lack of space, and many other hindrances to prompt and satisfactory despatch of business.
There are one or two observations I would read from the report made by the A'eoounjtant and Paymaster General:
To the layman the work of paying an army may seem a simple task, and it would be simple if it consisted merely of paying men a fixed rate once a month as in the case of large corporations. Owing to the fact, however, that the Government assumes a sort of paternal charge over the soldier, clothes, feeds, houses, and pays him, and also in a way provides for his family, the work is not so simple as it might appear; and where desertions and discharges are extremely numerous, as was the ease for the first few months, and regimental officers, including the paymaster are more or less inexperienced in their duties, there is bound to be care and worry for those in charge of the work. Add to this the difficulties resulting from having to issue part of the soldier's pay in Ottawa to his dependents and the balance to the soldier
himself in England and France, and the work becomes extremely complicated and the correspondence enormous as the pay officers at Ottawa and London have to keep each other advised of the state of each soldier's account. For this purpose it is necessary to open a ledger account with each soldier and also one with each dependent. Some idea of the work may be had from the number of cheques issued from the pay office at Ottawa which total now eighty thousand a month.
This report was made in December last. I stated the number at 125,000 a moment ago; that is the number now.
As already stated a great deal of difficulty has been experienced as a result of having to employ inexperienced regimental paymasters. Until these officers become trained in their work and attend to it properly there is bound to be trouble for all concerned. Not only must the paymaster be efficient but the regimental officers must be efficient as well and give him their co-operation. This is often lacking in the early stages of the organization of a regiment, and, as. a rule, some months elapse before the work goes smoothly. Naturally pay work is not considered the most important by regimental officers in a crisis like the present, when the great object is to make the regiment fit for the firing line ; hence, at first, there is more or less lack of attention to pay matters and men are discharged or allowed to desert without notifying headquarters of the fact.
So it may happen that cheques are sent to men who may have been discharged or may have deserted, or their dependents may receive cheques, because proper information has not been given.
These cases, however are becoming more rare and every means is being taken to obtain at Ottawa speedy notification of discharges and desertions. The old method of paying the men in cash has, as regards the troops in Canada, been discontinued, and cheques are now issued instead twice a month. While this system is somewhat cumbersome and entails more work than the other, yet it prevents irregularities and enables headquarters to keep a perfect check on paymasters. These latter are not allowed to draw cash from the bank, and the cheques issued to them do not go hack to them from the bank but are sent to headquarters.
There is a great deal more information of a similar character with regard to all branches of the Department of Militia and Defence, but I have given enough to make hon. members realize the very great magnitude of the task which has devolved upon the Government in connection with the organization required toy the war.
Now, with regard to the distribution and strength of the forces that have already been raised. Overseas, elsewhere than in Great Britain, there are approximately 65,000 men. It is understood that we have at the front three diyisions, which include all lines of communication units, includ-
SMi

ing hospital depots. We have in Great Britain at the present time approximately
70,000	men. I would like to say in this connection that there has been very earnest effort on the part of the Minister of Militia during the past four or five months, and an equally earnest effort on my own part, since I have been acting in the department, to procure the consent of the War Office to sending our men forward more rapidly than in the past. As a result,
I believe that we have despatched during the months of March and April about 30,000 men. And, in reply to a communication which I myself sent to the War Office on Thursday or Friday last, to which I requested very earnestly an answer as early as possible, I have now received permission to increase the number of battalions in Great Britain to fifty-two. This will involve the despatch to the other side of a -very considerable additional number of battalions in the early future. I have not been unmindful of the fact that there seemed a discrepancy between the number of men we were keeping here in Canada and the number we have in Great Britain and the number we have actually fighting at the front. As has already been explained more than once the Government of Canada was subject to certain limitations in connection with forwarding men to Great Britain and. from there to the front. In .the first place, we desired to have our men equipped, as far as possible, before they went forward, and it was absolutely necessary that they should first receive a certain amount of training. During the past three or four months there has been some difficulty in' providing .accommodation for the troops in Great Britain, end, then again, there has been delay in sending troops forward on account of not always being able to secure transports when required. However, the best has been made of the situation, and I am convinced that in the future troops will go forward more regularly and in greater numbers than during the first three months of the present year. It should be borne in mind that during the last' nine months of 1915 our forces did go across at the rate of about 2,000 per week, if I remember correctly. That average, however, was not maintained during the first three months of the present year. Then, besides that, we have in Canada, let us say, about 135,000 men, or a total of effectives of 270,000. I set down for non-effectives, casualties, wastage, etc., about 30,000, and I set down for the

militia in Canada, doing garrison and outpost duty, about 10,000. This brings the total to the 310,000 men which 'I mentioned as having been enlisted. I may say that the troops in Great Britain at the present time are toeing inspected toy General Lessard. He had been at the front on leave of absence and 'before returning to 'Canada it was thought desirable that he should make inspection of troops over there.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I had understood that General Lessard had obtained leave of absence, but that he was not officially connected with the department over there. I understand from the right bon. gentleman that General Lessard has been inspecting the troops?


Robert Laird Borden: He is now engaged in that work in Great Britain.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Since when?


Robert Laird Borden: Since about ten days, I think.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I thank the new Minister of Militia for what he did.


Robert Laird Borden: The arrangement for the inspection was made after consultation with the Minister of Militia and with his entire concurrence. In fact he thought it a very desirable thing that the inspection should be made by General Lessard.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Hear, hear. The news will be hailed with pleasure by all Canadians.


Robert Laird Borden: A difficulty has arisen in connection with the supply of drafts and reinforcements; I think hon. gentlemen will understand at once what it is. When it is proposed to organize a battalion at any point in Canada, the most capable officers are selected-men, if possible, with initiative and a good deal of energy, who will throw themselves wholeheartedly into the work of recruiting the battalion, and be likely to bring it up to its full strength as soon as possible. As the officers -are selected and the battalion organized, associations spring up between the officers and the men through the fact that the men are usually recruited from one particular locality, and there is a most natural desire on the part of the officers and men that the battalion shall go to the front as a unit and not be used for drafts or reinforcements. The result is that when it is necessary to fill the ranks at the front after an engagement, or to supply drafts

to fill up battalions in Great Britain which have been much depleted, there has been a great deal of reluctance and more or less murmuring on the part of the officers and men at being separated from each other and allocated to other battalions. 'Some arrangement by which difficulties of that kind will be obviated altogether, or at least reduced, is now under consideration in the department, and I hope that eventually we may arrive at some scheme which will make the difficulties less in the future than they have been up to the present time.
I have procured from the Deputy Minister of Finance a statement of expenditures up to the present time.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that a battalion is made up of 1,100 men?


Robert Laird Borden: About 1,140 or 1,160 men.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Including the officers. What is the proportion of drafts to be levied after a battalion has left and who looks after1 the drafts? I understand that each battalion must have its drafts in Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not quite sure of the precise method that is. adopted in Great Britain. I suppose that the officer at the front, after his battalion has been depleted, applies to the officer commanding the Canadian forces in Great Britain for the number of men necessary to bring his battalion up to strength again. Many battalions have been raised in different parts of Canada which have recruited 200 to 500 men above full strength. These men have gone forward to Great Britain, and, as I understand, have been used to make good the depletion in the ranks of Canadian reserve battalions in England, according as drafts have gone to the front. '
I was proceeding to say that the war appropriation was not to be used solely for the Department of Militia and Defence. It was an appropriation couched in practically the same language ae that which is now on the Order Paper. There have been payments to several departments of the Government out. of the war appropriation, and the books of the Finance Department up to April 30 show the following results:
Militia and Defence, $146,679,117.38 ; Justice Department, $1,142,250.36. (Chiefly in connection with internment prisoners.)
Dominion Police. (Additional police engaged and work in connection with intelligence,
and precautions against damage apprehended in this country from alien enemies coming from some other
country)	
$	199,859 24External Affairs	
10,228	62Public Works	
94,414	04Naval Service	
4,132^201	74Railways and Canals	
204,529	20Indian Affairs	
1,901	21Secretary of State	
21,119	75Governor General's Secretary's office	
8,399	34Privy Council	
17,319	08Inland Revenue	
1,970	00Trade and Commerce	
11,257	60War Purchasing Commission.	24,11$	58Finance Department	
73,671	16Auditor General's office	
5,109	46Labour Department	
1,071	19

Less Agriculture Department..	433 32


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: That is to April 1?


Robert Laird Borden: To April 30.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is 13 months.


Robert Laird Borden: It is of course desirable to reduce in every possible way the very great expenditure which is necessitated by the war, and I have asked the various heads of branches in the Department of Militia and Defence for a report upon that subject. The major part of the expenditure naturally consists of the pay and subsistence of the men, and the provision of uniforms and equipment and stores of various kinds which are necessary for the purposes of the war. So far as. these are concerned, and they form the vhstly greater part of the expenditure, we could not expect to reduce the expenditure very much, but there may be some minor matters in respect of which reductions can be accomplished. If there is any such possibility we shall not fail to avail ourselves of it.
With regard to recruiting, representations have been made to us from various quarters urging the necessity of some further system. We have received a delegation which very strongly pressed upon the Government the necessity of a complete registration of the manhood of Canada, and eventually of conscription.' We have not had an opportunity of giving adequate consideration to this proposal, but the Department of (Militia and Defence has endeavoured, particularly during the past six or nine months, so to guide recruiting that the agricultural, commercial and industrial strength of Canada shall not be unduly weakened. It is, of

me,

course, impossible for a country like Canada to raise 310,000 men without any inconvenience to the various industries, such as agriculture, manufacturing, and the various commercial activities of the country, but we have endeavoured to arrange with recruiting officers that where a very large number of men have been taken from a district which is a centre of a particular industry of importance to the country, recruiting in that particular place shall be _so directed that the industry in question shall not be unduly hampered. So far as agriculture is concerned, a general order was passed by the Department of Militia giving permission to the men enlisted in all parts of Canada to engage in agriculture during a certain period this spring, to assist in ploughing and seeding. Representations were made to us, on behalf of some agricultural interests, that in some parts of the country this permission was not being availed of to a very large extent. So, upon my suggestion to the Deputy Minister of Militia, an instruction was sent out to the officers commanding the various battalions directing them to encourage and even to urge the men to assist in this work, which is of the highest possible importance, as we all agree that agricultural production should, during this war, as indeed at all
5 p.m. times, be brought up to its highest limit. We have endeavoured to relieve the situation, so far as possible, by such means.
I have detained the com'mittee at very considerable length, but I think not without some advantage, in making members of the House acquainted with the very great magnitude of the work which is being carried on and with the very valuable services which have been rendered to this country by the officers of the Department of Militia and Defence. I have found them inspired throughout by a splendid spirit of earnestness and devotion to the public interest. It is almost impossible for hon. members of this House who have not been brought closely in touch with the activities of the department, to realize the enormous burdens of responsibility and of work which have been undertaken by the officers of the department, which have been assumed by them without a murmur or complaint, and which have been carried out, I believe, in a manner which reflects credit not only upon them but upon the administration of public affairs in this country. In common with all the people of this country, they

have been called upon for a certain sacrifice, and they have made that sacrifice cheerfully and patriotically.
The spirit of our people has been so splendid that no words of mine are needed in commendation of it. Who would have imagined, in August, 1914, that in less than [DOT] 18 months more than 300,000 men in Canada would have flocked to the colours? The difficulty has been not ' to obtain enlistments, but to prbvide uniforms, equipment, arms, and all the necessaries for war. But more than that, we in Canada, in common with all the citizens of the Empire, can congratulate ourselves upon the splendid courage and endurance which our men have displayed at the front. It was a supreme test to which they were subjected. They -had not been trained to arms as had the forces of the enemy whom they went to encounter. Eew of them had had any military training before the outbreak of war. They went to the front and they met the very best troops that 'Europe could produce. They met the forces of the enemy, in the first instance, under the most trying conditions that could be imagined.
It would be impossible, I believe, for any man now within the sound of my voice to realize the test to which the Canadian troops were subjected on the 22nd April, 1915. I have said before that only those who have seen in the hospitals, men still suffering, months afterwards, from the effects of that gas attack, could realize what it meant to the Canadian forces who were subjected to it. They not only endured that, they remained in the *'trenches and held them, held them not only in the face of that attack, but in the face of overwhelming numbers, and they did not retire, not a man of them, until they received orders to do so, and some of them did not retire even then. To-day the men at the front, unless I am misinformed, are holding one of the most important and perilous portions of the line in France or in Belgium. We can rest assured, from the spirit which was shown a year ago, that the Canadian troops who hold that line will hold it to the end, and, while we mourn the casualties which bring sorrow to so many homes, we know that in the outcome the Canadian troops at the front can be relied upon to do their duty. We are all conscious of the -sacrifice which this struggle for liberty and the preservation of our institutions demands, and although Canada is conscious, from the Atlantic to

the Pacific, of that tremendous sacrifice of life and of resources, she faces the future with undaunted eye and with a firm heart.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I desire to ask the Prime Minister a few questions for information, as I did not wish to interrupt him in the course of his remarks. I am sure that hon. gentlemen on this side of the House will cordially endorse the appreciation, just delivered by the Prime Minister, of the Canadian forces. I quite agree with the right hon. gentleman when he stated that considering the fact that our soldiers were inexperienced in the art of war they have accomplished great deeds, and have reflected great credit upon our country. I am sure that Canadians all look forward to a continuance, during the balance of the war, of the same courage and distinction on the part of the Canadian troops as we have witnessed in the past.
The right hon. gentleman has given ue a very great deal of information this afternoon, which I am sure the House will receive with pleasure, and which will be valuable to the country. I quite appreciate the fact also, that the Department of Militia had very suddenly thrust upon at a vast amount of labour, and I agree with the Prime Minister in saying that a great deal of credit is due to that branch of the public service for its splendid work during the past 18 months or more. Sometimes, however, I feel that there has been such an amount of extra work pressed upon that particular department that possibly there has been, in regard to details, a lack of organization, that has not been to the advantage of the country. I was,glad to hear the Prime Minister state that he had asked the various heads of the branches of the Militia Department for a statement showing where, if possible, they could minimize expenditures on the war credit vote. I think that this matter might very well engage the serious consideration of the Government. I do not think that the country would be too critical as to small details of war expenditure, but, in the main, they will expect from the Government an oversight and direction in respect to war expenditures that will make them feel that their interests are being protected.
As was pointed out last year, a special responsibility rests upon the Government, as a body, in respect to war expenditures that does not attach to them in connection with expenditures by departments. In
205*
the latter case, ministers come to Parliament and designate in the Supply Bill the various detailed amounts which they ask Parliament to vote, but in the case of the resolution before the committee, a flat vote of $250,000,000 is asked for as a war credit vote. There are no details given, Parliament surrenders to the Government its control over the expenditure, and expects it to exercise that oversight as to detail which Parliaments usually exercise in respect to supply votes to the various departments of Government. The expenditures made by the Militia Department, or by any depart-iment, in connection with the war, are therefore under the responsibility of the Government as a body, and that responsibility does not rest upon any one particular minister, or upon 'any one particular department. Last session of Parliament, on the occasion of the consideration of a resolution similar to this, I gave to the commit-,tee a statement, or a minute of council of the Lords of the Treasury in England as to the system that should be followed .in respect to war expenditures, and I would like to know from the Prime Minister whether that system is followed rigidly, as we were promised laet year. The principle there laid down is that in the absence of estimates, or details of general war expenditure, each department should furnish to the Treasury Board, or to the Government, a detailed statement of probable expenditure during the forthcoming year, and that no expenditures should be made by any department without the authorization by Order in Council of the Treasury Board or of the Government. I should like to have some information from the Prime Minister as to whether that system is followed. Further, under the terms of the minute of the British Treasury Board, it was ordained that, not only the war credit vote, but the ordinary war and naval credits also should be expended in that manner. The reason is obvious. It is almost impossible to distinguish between expenditures made by the Militia Department, or the Naval Department, as to what are ordinary, or peace, expenditures, and what are war expenditures. I would say that all expenditures made by the Naval branch have reference, in some degree or other, to the war. Therefore, I think it would be a very wise course for the Government in the future, if it has not done so in the past, to insist that these ordinary militia and naval expenditures be authorized by the Government, or by a committee of the Govern-

ment, or by some proper authority, whatever that may be. I do not wish to elaborate this point as rl discussed it fully last year. 'I think we had the assurance of the Government that it would not shirk its responsibility in respect to the oversight of all war expenditures and that nothing should be left to the entire initiative of any department. It is true that war expenditures must be initiated by. some department, but before the authorization is made they should be considered by the Government, and before any expenditure is actually made, it should be seen that the authorization has also been duly made. I said that there is a distinction between a credit vote and the ordinary parliamentary vote in the form of the Supply Bill. Inasmuch as Parliament surrenders its control absolutely over the $250,000,000 that is to be voted by this resolution, it is only fair that Parliament should receive all possible information from the Government before the resolution is passed.
It is needless for me to say that hon. gentlemen on this side of the House will unhesitatingly vote the amount asked for by this resolution and accelerate its passing. We are as much interested in it as are the members of the Government and therefore I venture the suggestion, and the request, that the committee should be furnished with a statement showing the probable nature of the expenditures to be made out of the amount mentioned in the resolution. At page 49 of the printed memorandum, No. 2, which has been placed before Parliament, I find a detailed statement of the expenditures since the beginning of the war down to December 31, 1915. I think it would be well if the Prime Minister would submit to the committee a statement on that basis showing the' particulars, as far as they can be obtained, of the proposed war expenditure of this year. I think that not only the Militia Department should furnish this information to the Government to transmit to Parliament but that the other departments ought to do the same thing. I should like to say, because it is possible I omitted to do so before, that other departments, such as the Department of Justice and the Department of Trade and Commerce, which are expending war moneys should also have from the Government an authorization before engaging in any expenditure. I also think that they, as well as the Department of Militia and Defence should, as far as they can, furnish us with particulars of the expenditures

which they propose to make during the year.
That is all I have to say in a general way regarding these expenditures. There are a few questions I should like to ask the Prime Minister, and the information can be given later in the day. I, of course, wish to reiterate, in case I have not already made myself clear, that the committee should be furnished by the minister with a statement showing the particulars of the proposed expenditure for this year. There is one matter upon which I should like some information and that is the operations of the War Purchasing Commission. I understand that that body makes pretty nearly; all the purchases required for |he Department of Militia and Defence in connection with the war. I would like to know if in all cases the system of tender and contract is carried out by that body. I understood the right hon. gentleman to say this afternoon that such was the practice. Before the Public Accounts Committee a few weeks ago a statement was made by the Director of Contracts that there was a patronage list in connection with purchases made by that commission. I was somewhat astounded to hear that statement, because I had hoped that such was not the condition of affairs. If there is an occasion when we should be delivered from a system of patronage it is in connection with the spending of public money for the prosecution of the war. If it is true, as stated by the Director of Contracts, that a patronage list exists in the Militia Department, and is used by the War Purchasing Commission, then I say that such condition should not exiist and that such .patronage list should be immediately abolished. The public should have that assurance from the Government. I may be making an argument that may be very easily answered, because I rather gather from the expression of the right hon. gentleman who leads the Government that he is under the impression that my remarks are hardly apropos, because the Purchasing Commission does not use a patronage list. However, I should like to have a statement from him as to what is the practice of the commission, because we have the statement of the Director of Contracts that such a list does exist.
Further, statements have been made during the present session by many hon. gentlemen on this side of the House indicating the introduction of partisanship and patronage into war expenditures in some localities in Canada at least. I am sure it was not gratifying to members of Parliament or to

the country to learn of these facts. I do not propose saying anything further upon that point other than to emphasize the fact that if any portion of these war expenditures is made upon the basis of patronage it is absolutely indefensible and the country is entitled to an assurance from the Government who are collectively responsible for the proper expenditure of this amount that no such things did occur in the past and that they shall not occur in the future.
I noticed in the press recently that there was a surplusage of officers in the Canadian Overseas Forces. I have also been informed that the officers training schools throughout Canada are to be suspended very shortly, on May 1st, I think, owing to the fact that we have now more officers than we actually require. 1 am referring to this particularly because, rightly or wrongly, I am under the impression that there is an unnecessary expenditure in this direction. There are in England to-day many Canadian officers who went overseas with their regiments, and there is now apparently no service for them to perform. Again, we have had returned to Canada officers who went overseas but who were discharged, or at all events, returned to Canada, on the ground that they were incompetent or unnecessary in the overseas' forces; and in many cases I believe these officers are still retained by the department and, I suppose, still receive their pay. I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say that the Government and Parliament should ma^ke an effort to minimize war expenses as much as possible, for we all realize that our expenses on account of the war are mounting rapidly, and fast assuming such proportions that we shall be faced with a serious financial responsibility in the future. I therefore venture to suggest that a very great saving might possibly be made by the reduction of these officers in the Canadian forces, if they really are not necessary. I would make this further suggestion :	better judgment and discretion
should be exercised in the selection of officers than has been the case in the past. I know that in Canada there have been placed at the head of regiments men who were never militia officers and who had never taken an officer's training course- men who had never evidenced any capacity for leadership, and who, in the judgment of the public who know them, were unfitted for the positions which they held. If there is a surplusage of officers-and that objection should be removed if it does exist-surely we must have some men who have had
either some experience at the front or some militia experience, and I think .these should be given the preference in the selection of officers. I do not make these remarks in any censorious spirit, on the contrary 1 want to pay my tribute to the man who duns the uniform in this great crisis, and who is willing to make the sacrifice of going overseas and doing the very beet he can. I feel that way myself, because it will not be my privilege to offer myself for service in this great war. Notwithstanding my admiration for their self-sacrifice, I have no hesitation in making these observations in respect to officers for the overseas force, particularly if I am correct in believing that a large number of them are unable to perform any service because there is no service for them to perform. I have no hesitation whatever in urging upon the Government, or the department responsible for the selection of the officers commanding regiments that it is proposed to send overseas, that only men who have had some experience or have some natural capacity for the position should be placed in command of regiments.
There is just one other matter to which I wish to refer before taking my seat, and that will be in the nature of a question to the Prime Minister. I should like to know whether war expenditures are submitted in detail to the Government periodically. On page 35 of the printed memorandum No. 2, the monthly expenditures since the beginning of the war are shown. Possibly they have been prepared just recently for the information of Parliament. Is it the practice of the spending departments to submit to the Government monthly statements of their expenses, and an estimate . or requisition giving details of any expenditures they propose to make?


Robert Laird Borden: As regards my hon. friend's question relating to the requirements of each departmeent, I have given him a statement of what has been spent during the past year, and I can get the information in detail as to the requirements of the different departments for the coming year. That can be given to the committee, a little later on. As regards patronage lists in connection with the War Puchasing Commission I had never heard of any until my hon. friend mentioned it to-day and I do not believe that any such lists exist. I sent out just now for the chairman of the War Purchasing Commission, but I find that he is not in town.

When he returns I shall ask him to give full information on this subject.
As far as the surplusage of officers is concerned I cabled for some information on this subject a few days ago and I shall be glad to give it to the committee when I receive it The Canadian establishment is, I believe, somewhat different from the British establishment by which our men are governed when they go to the front. Where a regiment in Great Britain becomes practically broken up through the necessity of sending drafts to the front, a surplusage of officers may occur from time to time. As regards officers in Great Britain, I understand from the deputy minister that although there may be a surplusage so far as the regular authorized establishment is concerned, all the officers are employed in someway while in Great Britain. In fact I remember seeing a telegram in response to an inquiry a few days ago, to the effect that there were only two officers in Great Britain who were not attached to some unit there. Although the number may be above the recognized establishment, if the information which I have given just now is correct, all those officers are employed and made useful in some way.
My hon. friend speaks of sending to the iront only officers of experience and capacity. I hope no one thinks that we have enough officers of military experience for these three hundred thousand men.


Mr.  A. K. MAOLEAN@: I intended to make reference entirely to regiments recruiting in Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: We do not possess in Canada men of military experience according to the standard my hon. friend has set up. The best we have been able to do is to take men who are inspired by a patriotic desire to serve in this war-some of them have had a little military experience in training camps, perhaps, some of them have had none at all, but they come rorward-and we judge of their cajpaeity best we can. It is absolutely impossible for any man, my hon. friend or any other, to know just to what extent any officer, when he is put in command of a - regiment, or brigade, or division, at the front, is going to develop the qualities of leadership and capacity which are necessary for the command of such units. Men comparatively inexperienced are necessarily sent to the front after such training as may be possible in this country and in Great Britain. It ought to be a source of very great pride to all of us that, with very few

exceptions indeed, the men "who have had to contend with the difficulties arising from inexperience have made good, as they have made good, during the past eighteen months. Some of them have come back through physical unfitness to stand the awful strain imposed upon them at the front. A great many have come back invalided through wounds received or diseases contracted. The men who have come back have been utilized, as far as possible, for the training of units in Canada, so that these units may have the advantage of the knowledge and experience gained by officers who have been at the front.
So far as the war expenditures and the Government's control over those expenditures are concerned, nothing has been paid out of the war appropriations granted by this Parliament-except in the early months of the war as 'to which I gave an explanation last year-that has not . been previously directly authorized by by Order in Council. No department of Government has this appropriation at its command; the appropriation was not so granted by Parliament; it was not granted to any minister, 'but to the Government as a whole. Therefore, a minister, whether the Minister of Militia and Defence, the Minister of Naval Service, or the Minister of Justice-with reference to internment operations-must come to the Government, and the reports of (Council show why payment from the war appropriation is asked and for what purpose. That is done in every case. We have passed thousands of Orders in. Council. of this kind during the past eighteen months. That was not absolutely the case in the first two months of the war. As I explained last year, some payments were made without previous authority of Council by the Department of Militia and Defence. With regard to these payments, we had them all collected and put in a report, which was submitted to the Treasury Board. The Treasury Board spent days upon them and went over them carefully, and finally an Order in Council was passed giving subsequent authority for payments already contracted, and which had to be contracted unless we were disposed to greatly delay the desptch of the first contingent.
The Minister of Justice, for example,-may desire that a further sum of money shall be placed at the disposal of Major General Sir William Otter in respect of internment operations; he submits a statement, not absolutely in

detail, but of a. general character, showing for what purposes the last appropriation has been paid-so much for food, so much for clothing, so much for other things, the money having been paid out under the supervision of Major General Otter-and showing that, from the experience of the past, there will be required for the next three months a certain sum of money. An' Order in Council is passed placing a certain sum at his disposal, and stating in explicit terms that, so far as supplies are concerned, they must be purchased under the War Purchasing Commission, and under the Order in Council establishing that commission. The same is true of the Department of Naval Service, or of the Department of Militia and Defence. I trust I have made myself clear. I shall be glad to answer any other question.	,


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: In the session of 1914 we in this House, irrespective of party, voted the $50,000,000 asked for the purposes of carrying on Canada's part in the war. In the session of 1915, we voted $100,000,000 just as readily. We are now called upon to vote $250,000,000 and this we intend to vote in just as generous a manner as on the previous occasion. I wish to refer briefly to one or two matters and first to recruiting. I am not able, perhaps, to give any suggestions to the Government that would assist in stimulating recruiting, and possibly fop, that reason the minister may think that I have not much to say, but I have observed one or two things about recruiting the knowledge of which by the House, I think, would do no harm. I am afraid that throughout the part of the country in which I live no system is followed in connection with recruiting. It may be that the Government has found difficulty-no doubt it has-in mapping out a general plan to cover the whole of Canada. Recruiting appears to be left entirely to each community and the city in which I live handles it for that part of the country. We have a recruiting committee and the same plan exists, I suppose, in many other places both in western and eastern Canada. I believe these local committees look after recruiting very well. Another feature that occurred to me is the scattering of recruits in small batches in small towns which I do not think is in the best interests of the recruits. When I was coming down to Ottawa on the Canadian Pacific railway a few days ago, I saw at the divisional points on the north shore
of Lake' Superior, a few recruits at every station. On inquiry I found that these were some of the towns where twenty-five men had been recruited and were stationed. These men cannot possibly get the training they would be given in a larger centre or at some concentration camp. I venture to believe that they should not be scattered in this way, but rather that they should be sent to some place where a large number of them would be collected and.where they would be given the training they ought to have before they cross the Water. In these small places there is not the equipment for efficient training, nor can the Government maintain in every one of these places an efficient training officer who can train two hundred men as easily as he can train twenty-five.
Another question raised in my part of the country is whether or not the recruits taken out are all physically fit. The information I have is only general, and I can not give specific instances, but that information is to the effect that, in* the anxiety of officers to fill up a battalion, a large number of men are being recruited who are not physically fit and who, in the last resort, when they get across the water, or perhaps even before they leave Canada, will have to be rejected.
1 think it is a mistake to take men into a battalion if they are not physically fit, because their places will have to be fillet later, when, nexbaps, it w:il be too late to give the new men the proper training. There is another matter which I wish to bring to the attention of the minister- and I do so with a good deal of hesitancy. I doubt very much whether some of our piilitia officers in certain parts of the country have the Reeling of responsibility, that they should have when put in charge of such a large number of men. The 1,100 men forming a battalion are really wards of their officers; the officers occupy the same position towards them for the time being, at least, as the schoolmaster or teacher in a college does to the boys who are put under his charge. I question very much whether on all occasions the officers do have the sense of responsibility that they ought to have in regard to the men who are put under their charge. I know an instance that occurred in the city of Regina. A young boy named Darraeh enlisted with the 68th battalion there. The boy's home was in the city of Regina; his parents lived there. He was at home over Sunday; on Monday he became ill. Al-

though the distance from the barracks where he was stationed to hi-s father's office was not more than a mile or a mile and a half, no word was sent to the parents. On Tuesday he became worse; on Wednesday he was put in the hospital, and still no word was sent t'o his parents. On Friday, just a few minutes before the boy died, the parents were communicated with by some person in the hospital, but before the father could reach the hospital the boy had died. Naturally the parents in their bereavement, not having been advised of the boy's illness, felt very bitterly towards some of the people in charge of militia matters in the city of Regina, and one cannot blame them very much for feeling the way they did. I mention -this matter largely for the purpose of indicating that the officers on that occasion should have taken some little precaution to advise the parents of the boy's illness. Occurrences of that kind will not stimulate recruiting in any community. Parents will not allow their boys eighteen, nineteen and twenty yeare of age to enlist if they think that* the boys will not get proper care.
I do not know whether the boy got proper medical attendance or not; I assume that he must have got proper medical attendance when he was in the hospital. The point where the military men were apparently at fault-I heard no defence of the matter at all-was that no communication was sent to the parents. As I have said, I hesitate a good deal to mention these circumstances to-day, largely on account of the fact that the 68th battalion, of which this boy was a member, very recently went to the front, and any person who might be able to make a defence of this case is not here to do so.
I wish to emphasize the point brought up by the junior member for Halifax with regard to the question of patronage. I have heard it stated in the House by the Minister of Militia that there was no. patronage list in the Department of Militia. Well,
I can only say this: The Militia Department and the Government have allowed the matter of patronage in connection with militia supplies to drift into the hands of local patronage committees. Although all persons, Liberals and Conservatives alike, are doing their share in the matter of enlisting and recruiting, sending their sons to the front-both parties in equal degree,
I -think-and contributing to patriotic and Red Cross funds, no person tout one who is on a certain side of politics in parts of

the country with which I am familiar can get anything to do at all. Surely, when all the people of the country -are spending all the money they can -afford and doing all they can in the interests of Canada's part in this war, it is time to- instruct these local patronage committees to leave party patronage alone and deal with matters on a business basis.


Mr. BURNHAM:: With regard to one
observation that the hon. gentleman made, I am quite convinced that he is entirely wrong. When men enlist they must be taken out in green squads and handled by non-commissioned officers. They cannot be taken out in large numbers; they are taken out in green squads whether at headquarters or in the outlying villages, and they have to spend a certain time there until they are licked into shape before they can be taken to Barriefield or some other place and put into a large body such as a battalion or brigade for the purposes of manoeuvres. The reason this plan was adopted, I am quite sure, is that squad drill is the beginning; it is the only possible way that a green man can learn anything. Non-commissioned officers, such as sergeants and corporals, are scattered throughout the country for that purpose. You could not take a great mob of green men and put them together at some large centre and go through large manoeuvres right off-it would be ridiculous; it could not be done. With regard to patronage, I was somewhat interested in that question, because Canadians-I do not know whether they db so more than any other people- have to fight against a tendency in the country to look to the loaves and fishes. Some people are inordinately green; we all know that.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


John Hampden Burnham: They have to be fought against by both parties. They are without shame and entirely shameless. We have seen lots of them. They are only too eager to cut your throat if they can possibly do it. They do not make their objections in connection with those things that could be freely and openly and effectively answered; they always take up something by which they can stab you in the back. Our only answer to these people is to give them a good kicking. They are not worthy of being fought in the good old British way, with the fists; they should be simply spanked. Intellectually, and especially

morally, they are children. As a matter of fact, some people-I am not speaking of my own locality, you may rest assured- have more or less criminal instincts.


William Melville Martin: Where did you get
your experience?


John Hampden Burnham: I was out West two or three years ago.


William Melville Martin: You have some political friends out there.


John Hampden Burnham: However, it is not
necessary to enlarge upon the point; we know that it is a fact. Out of curiosity, I endeavoured to find out if there was any patronage in the war purchasing and other departments, and I found out that there was not.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.
Mr. KY'TE: Where did you look?


John Hampden Burnham: There is no question, Mr. Chairman, that there is only one way of doing business, and that is the business way. Tenders should be called for, and the public should be notified; then every thing is above board. If that has not been done, I have been unable to find out the contrary. I quite agree that if it has not been done, most certainly it ought to have been done.


Mr. TURRIFF:: I wish to refer to the matter brought up by the member for Regina with regard to the men being taken into the different battalions who are absolutely unfit. Men are taken in for some reason or other, in many cases because certain officers are anxious to get their company or battalion recruited to full strength in order that this may be to their credit and that they may secure permanent appointments. There are many cases where men are recruited and given uniforms, although they could not possibly pass the usual rigid examination that a man is called upon to undergo before he goes to the firing line. The result has been that in many cases men have been enlisted and trained for six months or a year, and then, on a more rigid examination before being sent to the front, have been rejected. This involves a tremendous and useless expense to the country. I knew that this was taking place, and my own knowledge was confirmed by the statement of a gentleman who went over with the first contingent as a junior officer and returned as a lieutenant colonel a year ago. He said that in some cases men who were suffering from some physical disabilities concealed those disabilities when enlisting, that they were not discovered by the medical examiners, and that, becoming tired of trench life after one or two months, these men made known their physical disabilities, and so were relieved of duty and sent home. In many cases these men had some injury, or had suffered from illness through their exposure in the trenches, and so they will become charges upon the people of Canada so long as they live. I would urge that the examination at enlistment be made much more rigid.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: I think the hon. member will find that the present system is to examine the men viery closely on enlistment, and not to examine them again. I know that to be the. practice in my district.


John Gillanders Turriff: I am aware that there has always been an examination of the men on enlistment, but in some cases where commanding officers are anxious to fill up their regiments men are accepted who are absolutely unfit physically, and who could not pass a rigid examination. While there has undoubtedly been some improvement, there is still room for further effort and further improvement along that line.


John Hampden Burnham: Is the hon. member aware that the regulations call for all of those things? The fault must lie with the examining officer.


John Gillanders Turriff: That may be. I have no doubt that if all the regulations were lived up to things would be better. I am not bringing this matter up with any intention of complaining, but I am anxious to effect improvement and to save money. Could the Prime Minister, after eight o'clock, give us any idea oi the cost per man of the maintenance of our army in the field, including supplies, munitions and everything?
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou):: The terms of this resolution, as has already been stated by hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, will be received without opposition; in fact, will be received with full accord in pursuance of the policy which has been adopted by men of all parties since the beginning of the war, of uniting, irrespective of political affiliations, to do all we can to help the Mother Country. In this connection, I would like to take
32&4

exception to a statement made by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister this afternoon as to there having been some wonderment, or doubt, before the war began as to whether Canada would be able to contribute as many men as she has contributed to the fighting forces. I do not pretend to be a prophet in any sense, but I always felt that there could never be any doubt whatever as to the attitude of the Canadian people when the interests of the Empire were at stake. Those of us who copse from people who have lived for two or three generations in Canada know that among the Canadian people there has always been the feeling that the little island which constitutes the seat of Empire was the home land, and although our patriotism may not have been very demonstrative, there was always the certainty that, under the conditions which prevail in Canada, under our democracy, and with the full realization of the issues of this war, there would be a response on the part of the people to whatever extent might be necessary to aid the Empire. I therefore assert that there need never have been any doubt whatever as to what Canada's response would be. There was certain to be a recognition of the conditions, and a gathering round the banner with that enthusiasm which we have seen manifested in all parts of this country. When it is said that it is a matter of particular wonderment that within three months of the outbreak of war, 30,000 men rushed to the colours, I would like to point out that no man and no party is entitled tc any particular credit, and that the wonderment has no justification whatever. The response simply proved the latent patriotism of the people of this land and was an expression of the realization of the tremendous issues at stake and of the people's attachment to our constitutional fabric. They rushed to the standard, just as their forefathers did in the days of yore, as a matter of course. They responded to the call of the Empire, and the proposition of sending them overseas was a mere matter of detail which could be worked out, as a matter of detail by any Administration or by any minister capaJble of attending to the business of the country.
I do not make that remark in any harsh or complaining spirit, but I think it is only right in the Parliament of this country we should have a full recognition of the fact that the Canadian people, with their aspirations and ambitions, were there, ready for the call; that they came of their own free will, that they went to the front, 
and are going and will go, to whatever extent the necessities of the situation demand. Recognizing these facts, realizing that the Government had to take the responsibility of administering the affairs of this country in war time, I say that the same spirit which actuated the men who volunteered, actuates hon. gentlemen in this House on both sides, without difference and without question. Hence it is that, with a free hand, we have given to the Government everything that they have asked for in the way of financial aid, and now this resolution comes to us and is received in the same spirit. While that is so, however, it is only right to say that the Canadian people expect from the 'Government a special regard for wise economy in the administration of affairs, and an honest administration in dealing with the expenditures which are committed to its care. Though a strict accounting is not looked for at this stage, the Government may rest assured that the time will come, and perhaps come speedily, when war's alarms are over, when a strict accounting will be demanded.
With regard to such questions as relate to the administration of affairs, and more particularly to the preparations for war, an idea was expressed to me recently with reference to the mobilization of troops, which, though it may be too late for the Government to seize, might, I think, have been recognized earlier. All through this country, from one end to the other, we had a militia organization built up. In some distracts there was a very strong interest and an intense local spirit manifested, and it seems to me that it is one of the unfortunate things connected with the mobilization of our troops that we have absolutely destroyed, so far as this war is concerned, if not forever, any spirit of enthusiasm in the Tanks of the militia corps in this country. The men who have gone to fight cannot come back and say that they went from the 28th, the 38th, or 78th Militia Corps, and when, in the days to come, we seek to perpetuate, as we must perpetuate in this country, a system of militia organization, there will be an entire lack of that enthusiasm for the old militia associations from which the men went to fight, because these militia corps have lost their identity altogether in the battalion_s that have been formed. We have heard references this afternoon to the number of officers who have qualified, and as to their selection for the particular corps in which they have served or are serving. The idea

ments were to go over as a Highland brigade, I say to the Prime Minister, now that he is Acting Minister mf Militia and Defence, that he should see that all obstacles to their going are removed and that a Highland brigade be formed, because, unless he does so, he will find that it will create a sense of disappointment throughout the province and a lack of enthusiasm when the call comes again, if it does come, for more recruits.
I do think that, there ought to be a more intimate connection, between the Militia Department and the people who are engaged in recruiting. In one of the recruiting efforts that took place in our province, we were told that although the band of a certain regiment, accompanied by its commanding officer, was going out to look after men, the few recruiting agents in that province would not undertake to pay the travelling expenses of that band. Local people were asked to contribute towards that purpose, even to feed them when they were on tour. That occurred to my knowledge in my own constituency. Of course, that is a matter of detail, but at the same time it means that somewhere in this marvellous organization, about which we have heard so much, and about which so much credit is claimed, not with any right, oh account of the reasons I gave at the beginning of my remarks, there ifc something -wrong. This sort of thing naturally chills the enthusiasm of our people. If we are going to have recruiting, let us have it looked after in a proper manner. Such absurd conditions as that ought not to be permitted. It may be, of course, that an incident of that kind arises from the action of some subordinate but more care should be exercised in the matter of recruiting. Everybody in this country who is interested in the war, and who is anxious to see its successful completion, and to see Canada playing her part, must realize that if you are going to interfere with the highest ideals of the men -who are going to this war as volunteers you are simply hampering the cause that you want to succeed. You can go into any part of the Dominion and tell men to forget the smaller issues of life and rise to an appreciation of their higher duty and the possibility of the greatest sacrifice, but if you are going to complicate that with conditions which absolutely explode any thought of idealism in regard to the matter the result will be unsatisfactory. That applies in regard to recruiting. It also applies

in regard to the question of patronage. ' My hon. friend told us to-night	that
there was no patronage in the	War
Purchasing Commission. I will tell him how it works out. You have a	proposition to recruit men and billet them in a certain locality. The quartermaster of the particular regiment is told in some mysterious way that when he goes into a particular section he must consult the man ,who has the patronage and therefore, when he goes to that district, he parcels out the supplies among men who are dictated by the man who has the patronage. This is not perhaps of great importance but it grates harshly on the sensibilities of the -man who is actuated by idealism. I have had it occur in my own constituency where no attempt whatever has been made to call for local tenders. What difference does it make after all who sells the sugar, or the meat, having regard to the higher conditions, but when you go into a small locality where people are making their living out of this business and where a man is made to realize that because he happens to be a Liberal he must be kept out of the opportunity of tendering for supplies, how much enthusiasm, how much idealism are you apt to get from -him? I will tell what occurred in my own constituency. A company was billeted in my own town. An officer of the 106th Regiment goes to the gentleman who has the patronage and proceeds to parcel out these things without asking anybody to submit tenders.. I called the attention of the Acting Minister of Militia to it, hot for any purpose of my own, but because' the matter was. remarked about among the people, and he promised to call for tenders. He. did 60 eventually. Why was it necessary for me to have done that? Why should not he, in the first instance, have issued instructions that it was. the duty of the officer, on going into any locality, to poet up notices inviting tenders? It seems to be a small matter and personally it does not make any difference to me, but my right hon. friend knows that when you are dealing in high ideals and you bring in small, tu'penny ha'penny politics, you cannot continue on the higher plane and that is where the shoe pinches. The same thing occurred in another constituency just as it has occurred all over Nova Scotia. The way in which patronage in regard to militia matters has been handled in the county of Cape Breton is a disgrace to the Administration and I ask my right hon. friend to 'look into it.

A matter was called to my attention within the last two days which I wish to bring to the 'attention of the right hon. gentleman. This is not a matter possibly that has to do with militia business but it is in reference to the question of hospitals. The gentleman who has the patronage there was going around to find out if this Government was going to take charge of the hospitals so that he would be able to dictate the men who should be employed iin these institutions. I would ask my right hon. friend, for the credit of our province, to make some inquiries in regard to the gentleman who has the patronage in the county of Cape Breton and 6ee whether or not this is the kind of idealism to hold out before the Canadian people.


Robert Laird Borden: What kind of
hospital was it?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It was under the
Hospital Commission, and this gentleman was inquiring whether or not this hospital was going to be taken over by the Government, with a view to making recommendations as to the people to look after it. The conduct of the gentleman who has the patronage in Cape Breton county is known all over the province of Nova Scotia, and my right hon. friend had better inquire into it.
There have also been cases of ill treatment of soldiers, and I wish to call my right hon. friend's attention to the case of Pte. Chapman in my own constituency. He was one of a company of the 106th Regiment in charge,of the Nova Scotia Steel Works, and on account of being absent without leave, was strung up by the hands under the direction of the commanding officer of the company. This fact became known to the men in the works, which are in close proximity, and they went in a body and demanded that the man be taken down. He was taken down; otherwise there would have been a very unpleasant time. An investigation has been held locally hy the people interested. I can see no reason why any Canadian should be treated in that way when he is under military discipline in any of our towns. I know that in the face of the enemy drastic measures can be taken to punish a man, but when the men are in our cities in Canada the most refractory case can always be given in charge; there is always recourse to imprisonment. But to string a man up by his hands for such an offence as being absent without leave, is something the people of this country will
not stand for, and one very unfortunate thing abput it is that it has a most injurious effect upon recruiting.


Robert Laird Borden: Is that the same case mentioned by the hon. member for Guysborough?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Yes, Pte. Chapman, of a company of the 106th Regiment in charge of the Nova Scotia Steel Works. I happened to be in my county the other day and heard of the case, and I am calling these matters to the attention of my right hon. friend because this affords an opportunity we have not had hitherto.
My right hon. friend has referred to the givirig of commissions, which was brought up by the hon. member for Halifax. Of course, I know it is difficult to deal with these commissions altogether apart from favoritism. The party in power will, of course, listen to the requests made by its political friends; I can see that it is difficult to evade that. But in some constituencies the process of log Tolling to get commissions is going on continually. I do not suppose my right hon. friend, with his burdens of office, has any occasion to deal with these matters at first hand, but I can give him instances of this sort of thing. I should prefer to do it privately, however, as there is no necessity for doing it in open Parliament. But my right hon. friend must realize that there have been abuses of that kindj and the hon. member for Halifax was perfectly justified in mentioning the matter. There is no question about it. Men suddenly become patriotic Canadians, and develop into paymasters, quartermasters, and holders of other non-oombatant positions Of every other kind, and the only evidence that you can possibly find why they should have been appointed is that ^omebody had pull and got them there. Nobody ever charged these men with exhibiting any great enthusiasm in the past for the body politic or for the preservation of the rights and liberties of the people. Their sudden appearance in positions of this kind, which do not call for personal exposure on the battlefield in the face of the enemy, indicates a public spirit that has developed a little too rapidly to be considered entirely honest. A certain amount of that kind of thing, I suppose, cannot be helped, but if it can be helped, it ought to be. I am speaking from the highest possible motives, and not with a desire to be partisan in my criticism. I know the gentleman who

has the patronage in my county has gone to certain gentlemen and said: I can get you made a major, or colonel, or something else. I have known, men, particularly this gentleman from Cape Breton that I have referred to, trying to remove men who were politically dangerous to him, by offering them commissions of one rank or another. So long as it is possible for that kind of thing to be done, what is the use of talking idealism to our people, or asking a man to come out and fight for liberty! Men are being granted commissions in exactly the same way as postmasters, or mail-carriers are being appointed- bringing the thing down to absolutely common clay. Surely this matter is deserving of some attention, and should be looked into.
The weakness of the medical officers is a thing I have had occasion to call attention to before. This, in our province, is largely a matter of political patronage pure and simple. I know an order was issued by the Militia Department not long ago changing the system, but it all rests with the colonel of the regiment as to who shall examine the men. A young man in Nova Scotia with a good old Scotch name, Findlay MacMillan-


John Hampden Burnham: Have you any Canadians down there, or do the people down there all come from other countries?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: They are a good deal better than, my hon. friend from Peterborough.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: He has enlisted.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend from Peterborough belongs to the Paymaster Brigade, sitting down here in uniform and not doing a bit of work. I like to see men in uniform go out with their corps. We are all getting tired of my hon. friend's diatribes. This young man Findlay MacMillan was very anxious to serve his country. After being examined by the local doctor in New Glasgow, who passed him and told him he would have no difficulty in getting to the front, this young man sold his farm and everything belonging to him, and was sent down to Halifax to join the regiment. The doctor at Halifax discovered that his was a case of what is known as flat feet; that is, his instep had fallen. The doctor said he could not be taken, and the young man was ordered to return home. But he had sold his farm and everything he had, and had no place to go to. My at-

tention was called to the matter to-day in a letter from a friend of his, who described the situation as most unfortunate. There is evidence of incomplete medical inspection. Then there are oases' of men who have been sent overseas and have had to be sent back from England. This young man, Findlay MacMillan, was told by the doctor that he was all right, and he joined the army at considerable material loss to himself. He has now lost his ambition to go to the war, because he would not be allowed to go, and he is compelled to stay at home, with his occupation gone and with no home life. I do not know what remedy to suggest in this particular case, but I can give my right hon. friend all the facts, and I think they are worth inquiring into. I do not mean to say that the medical officer deliberately passed him in the first place, knowing he had flat feet, but that is just one example of improper medical inspection in the first . instance.
Another thing I would take the liberty of asking my right hon. friend is that he should tell the House frankly what the attitude of the Government is in regard *to returning money subscribed for machine guns. I think the House and the country are entitled to a full explanation of how that matter came before the people. Every one was startled at the announcement made by Senator Lougheed, then in charge of the Department of Militia and Defence, calling upon the people to contribute money to provide machine guns. Parliament had voted $150,000,000 for the very purpose of providing equipment, clothing, and other things including machine guns. For the moment I was at a loss, so far as my own constituency is concerned, to understand why the Government was asking the people to come to their relief in this matter. The newspapers, in the enthusiasm of the moment, called upon every one who was a patriot to subscribe to this fund. But what did Parliament vote $150,000,000 for if the people were to be appealed to to put their hands in their pockets for the purpose of providing machine guns?


Robert Laird Borden: To what appeal does the hon. gentleman allude?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: To the appeal made in the Halifax Herald, for instance, my right hon. friend's own paper, asking all the people to contribute to this fund, and indicating those who did not .contribute were unpatriotic and disloyal.


Robert Laird Borden: An appeal made by the Government?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Senator Lougheed
who was then, I think, acting Minister of Militia, had written a letter, which was published in that paper, calling upon the people to respond to this appeal. That appeal was made throughout our province, and certain municipalities passed resolutions in view of the demands made, appropriating money for this purpose. Patriotic organizations and individuals also contributed. I think we are entitled to know whether the Government intends to return the money thus obtained-. I put a question on the Order Paper asking a statement of the Government policy in regard to this matter. The Prime Minister answered me that he had given an answer to the question. I looked up Hansard, to which he referred me, and got very little satisfaction. What we want to know is whether the Government will return to the municipalities and individuals this money which should never h^ve been taken from them. And right here let me say a word in regard to this matter of people going up and down the country getting up subscriptions for this, that, and the other thing. The Government, through the Department of Militia, or some other department, should exercise supervision with regard to this. I was asked by some very estimable gentleman to join a delegation to wait upon the Minister of the Naval Service to ask the Government to give a subscription to the Seamen's Fund of Great Britain. I said at once that I would do nothing of the kind, for coming from one of the provinces by the sea I knew something of the conditions, and I knew that this was not a war fund at all. There does not exist in Great Britain such machinery as we have, to provide marine hospitals and to care for sailors. Some well-intentioned person had started this propaganda by which everybody in Canada was to be asked to contribute to this fund and the Government was to be asked to make a special contribution; but the fund is purely local in its character and is dealt with entirely by people on the other side of the water. I was glad to find that my hon. friend the Minister of the Naval Service (Mr. Hazen), in discussing this matter before the Pension Committee, agreed absolutely with the position I had taken. This is an illustration of the kind of appeals that are being made all over Canada today. I feel that it is the duty of the Government to have some supervision over these appeals, which, no doubt, are made by well-intentioned people, to the generosity of our
folks who, thinking they are contributing to some good cause, give a lot of money to objects some of which ultimately turn out to be of no value. Take, for instance, the appeal made at the beginning of the war for a hospital ship, which movement was started in Toronto. Those who understood these matters knew there was no real advantage in that movement, and yet over $100,000 was raised. And so it goes on. I ask that those municipalities and individuals who so wish should be refunded the money they contributed toward the purchase of machine guns. It would be just as reasonable to start a public subscription to buy rifles, or clothing, for the troops. It is a regrettable thing that these subscriptions should have been asked for apparently under official sanction.
In connection with thi6 war vote, I wish to call the Prime Minister's attention to a situation which exists in our province with reference to what might properly be called a naval matter, the commandeering of ships. Newfoundland has made the very strongest representations to the Mother Country with regard to what they allege to have been discrimination in the commandeering of ships, and these representations, I understand', have had some effect. Here in Canada what is the result of this commandeering? In regard to our coal, companies, the total number of ships engaged in the coal trade between Nova Scotia and Montreal have been Commandeered, and ^et, you can go out and charter vessels at enormous rates which sail under the British flag. Why should that be? Why. should this coal industry in our province be seriously interfered with; why should the city of Montreal be put to a disadvantage through not being -able to get coal from Nova Scotia, and why should the American coal people be given a chance tp get a foothold in the Montreal market, by the removal of the ships engaged in the coal trade while there -are ships flying the British flag which can be chartered at very high rates?
Canada is doing her level best in this war. The very be^t of our men have gone to the front. And in discussing this matter, we .should never forget the splendid enthusiasm exhibited by the women of Canada, which is even greater than that of the men. The women have been called upon to make great sacrifices in giving up sons and husbands and dear ones-and the son is generally dearer to the mother than to the father. The devotion ot our women

will never be forgotten. The people of Canada have made marvellous sacrifices, and are prepared to make more. But we must realize that, as far as possible, we should keep our house in order, we should keep an eye to the future. If there is, as I say there is, a condition under which one of our greatest industries is being paralyzed for want of ships, if there are other vessels available which could be commandeered, those other vessels ought to be taken first.
This resolution provides for expenditures in the Naval Department. I am sorry to see that the hon. Minister of the Naval Service (Mr. Hazen) is not here. I am sure that I voice the sentiment of every hon. gentleman on this eide of the House when I say that our hearts go out to him in sympathy on account of the death of his boy. Such an event as thiat saddens every one and stills the voice of faction. I .am sure that every hon. member in the House extends to my hon. friend the deepest sympathy in the great loss he has sustained. '
I was proceeding to refer to the Naval Service. I am glad to see that within the last week or two we have been getting evidence of the truth of the statement which I made earlier in the session; that Great Britain needed men upon the sea. I was told in this Parliament since the House opened this session that Great Britain did not need men upon the sea. I know the facts, and I knew that I was correct. We have been glad to see men wearing the blue uniform of the navy amongst us; it is evidence that Great Britain does desire men on the sea, and these naval men are recruiting for that purpose. If the Minister of Naval Service were here I would ask him at the earliest possible date to. make a statement, as to the kind and number of men that Great Britain wants from us, so that the facts may be placed properly before those who are in a position to respond to the call. I am quite sure that that call for men for the navy will be responded to by our hardy and brave sea-faring Canadians in as great degree as the call for men to serve the Empire on land.
I noticed the other day an advertisement in some of the local papers which purported to come from my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, encouraging the people to patriotism and production and embodying some other propaganda. It is a desirable thing, of course, to patronize the press of the country, but I would like to know from my right hon. friend whether or not expenditures in that line and in connection with

the pamphlets we have seen in regard to the subject come out of this vote? I am quite sure that the people who live on the farms need no incentive to produce all they can, and that there will be no lack of response from all classes of our people in regard to this question of production. One, of the strange features of the war is that the agriculturists of Canada are able to get higher prices than they ever got /before for .all staple lines of production. SO it is with most of the other things that enter into the necessaries of life, These things wil be produced, and I do not know that it is evidence of economy that there should be any special .publication of books to call forth the most ordinary business efforts from the agriculturists or from any other class of people in onr country. The idea that has been promulgated, that the people of Canada | were not ready to assist the Empire in this war in every possible way, is a delusion. While Canada was not playing a 'brass band at the front door before the war, shouting her patriotism as some other colonies or nations were, she was ready to assist the Old Land whenever necessity arose. No pumping up of enthusiasm was necessary; no political efforts were required in order to get a response. Freely and generously from every province of this great Dominion the boys came forth and have gone to fight. The same feeling of devotion exists in connection with our industrial and agricultural life, and I am quite sure that everything that is necessary will be forthcoming, to the extent of our resources, and that it will come without any particular pumping or fostering or unnecessary expenditure.
I have endeavoured to bring to. the attention of my .right hon. friend some matters that seem to he of importance in connection with this resolution, and I submit them with the hope that they will receive his fullest consideration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The hon. member for Pictou has just mentioned the fact that officers of the British Navy are here recruiting for the British Admiralty. I am very pleased to hear that. In connection with the Navy, I wish to inform my right hon. friend that I clipped from one of the New York papers a few days ago the following :
San Francisco, April, 27.-According to unconfirmed advices received at the Mare Island Navy Yard today, the American power schooner Oregon, owned by the Crowley Launch and. Tugboat Company of San Francisco, has been

seized by the British cruiser Rainbow in the Gulf of California.
The Oregon sailed from San Francisco last June, under charter to the German firm of Linga and Company of Mazatlan. At that time she carried a cargo of lumber. It was understood the vessel was to be used in the west coast trade. Nothing is known here of her recent movements.
I would like to ask my right hon. friend if that report is confirmed? If it is, it is one other exploit on the part of the much despised Canadian navy. As one of the fathers of that navy, I rejoice greatly that the Rainbow and the Niobe are proving true to their fathers.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES (Kings, P.E.I.):: I
wish to say a few words upon the resolution now before the committee, and particularly with regard to my own province. I am under the impression that the percentage of recruiting in the province of Prince Edward is not as large as in some of the western provinces of Canada, but the reason is very easily understood. The province being purely agricultural, the young men, as soon as they come to manhood, go either to the United States or to western Canada in large numbers, leaving just enough men at home to work the farms. Consequently, those of military age and ability are not as numerous there as they are in some of the other provinces, particularly in the West, where they get the young and the healthy, the strong and the energetic from the other provinces and from the Old Country as well. Notwithstanding that fact, however, I believe that the percentage of recruiting in the province of Prince Edward Island is very good. Moreover, the people subscribed liberally to every appeal that was made to them. In that connection I wish to refer to the appeal that was made on behalf of the fund that was needed to buy machine guns. When it was stated that the troops at the front were handicapped to a very great extent by not having a sufficient number of machine guns, the people thought that if they would subscribe money to that fund the defect could be remedied. An appeal went out at that time, from the Acting Minister of Militia, Senator Lougheed, that it would be very acceptable to the Government and the Militia Department if money should be obtained for that purpose. To show how that appeal was received in the province and even in the town from which I come, the people of the town provided money to purchase three guns. One man subscribed enough to purchase a machine gun; he happened to be in a position
to do so easily. Another citizen in very moderate .circumstances, feeling the necessity of doing everything he could, subscribed for another gun. Then the town provided another, and this citizen who, as I say, is in very moderate circumstances, gave $300 more for the second gun. Everybody subscribed, even the school children, who offered their small savings of fifty, sixty, or seventy cents, or a dollar. In a very short time sufficient money was subscribed for three machine guns. It has been the same with every other fund, the Belgian relief, the Red Gross, the Patriotic fund, the Field Army Service fund, every fund was subscribed to generously. I think that, instead of showing organization in the Militia Department, the appeal for funds to purchase machine guns shows a lack of organization. It should not have been necessary for the department to appeal to the patriotic impulses of the people in order to provide money to purchase one of the most necessary articles for troops at the front.
With regard to the patronage list, to which the Prime Minister referred this afternoon, the right hon. gentleman no doubt thinks he is stating the facts. But, as a matter of fact, he is far astray; he is misinformed, because so far as Prince Edward Island is concerned, and I presume conditions are very similar in other provinces, there is nothing but a patronage list. A Liberal has no more chance of providing any supplies for the troops stationed at local headquarters than if he were a man belonging to a foreign country. I have now a question on the Order Paper, and if it is answered satisfactorily and truthfully I shall be able to give names that I am sure will satisfy the Prime Minister of the accuracy of my statements. I say truthfully, because I find that questions which I put on the Order Paper and which were answered earlier in the season were not answered correctly, and I have the proof under my hand. On February 3, this question was answered by the Minister of Militia and Defence:
Mr. J. J. Hughes:
1.	What procedure is followed to obtain supplies for the troops at local headquarters?
2.	Are tenders asked for by public advertisement, or is there a patronage list, and are the parties whose names are on the patronage list asked to submit offers?
3.	Is there a patronage list for Prince Edward Island?
4.	If so, who prepared the list for the Government, what are the names and addresses of the parties on the list, and who recommended these names to the Government or the purchasing committee?



Sir Sam Hughes:
1.	The practice followed in making contracts for supplies to the troops at the various mobilization centres throughout Canada varies according to circumstances. If there is time enough before the supplies are required, tenders are called for by public advertisement, usually by posters put up in and about the town where the troops are to be stationed. When the time is too short to allow this to be done, tenders are obtained by circular letter or telegram from Ottawa, addressed to dealers of the locality concerned. Names of dealers are supplied by War Purchasing Committee. In some cases where the time is very short, the officer commanding the district is authorized to procure tenders from local concerns and transmit them, by mail or telegraph, to Ottawa for approval. No application from responsible parties for permission to tender is refused; and tender forms and necessary information are supplied to all such applicants. In all cases, the lowest tenders received are accepted.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
That is a very satisfactory explanation; but, strange to say, according to letters I have received from reputable people, not a Liberal has been found to provide any supplies in the carrying out of this arrangement. Let me come down to a concrete case. I shall take the article of milk. On the 16th of February this question was answered:
Mr. Hughes:
1.	Where is the milk obtained that is supplied to the troops at Charlottetown, P.E.I. ?
2.	Is it fluid or powder milk, and what price is paid for it?
3.	How is powder milk made, and is there any cream in it?
Sir Sam Hughes:
1.	From J. Tobin & Co., Halifax, N.S.
2.	(a) Powder milk. (b) 14i cents per pound.
3.	(a) By a superheated process .	(b)
Powder milk which is the solids of milk with the water evaporated containing 23.8 per cent of fat which returns to its original element by the addition of water.
Parties who obtained some of that powdered milk 'had it analysed
9 p.m. in Charlottetown and found that it contained no fat at all, although this answer says it contained 23 per cent. I had a sample of it analysed here at Ottawa by Mr. C. H. Robinson. Hie report was as follows:
Central Experimental Farm,
Ottawa, March 16, 1916.
J. J. Hughes, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir,-In the absence of Dr. Shutt I beg to hand you my report on the sample of milk powder forwarded by you on the 6th Instant.

Analysis.
Moisture		2.86
Fat	 2.44
Protein	 35.09
Ash	 7.44
The undertermined consists almost entirely of milk sugar.
The analysis corresponds to that of powder made from skim or separated milk. One pound of this milk powder added to nine pounds of water would give a milk closely approximating in composition to that of skim or separated milk obtained from dairymen.
* Tours respectfully,
C. H. Robinson,
Assistant Chemist.
There is a factory in Charlottetown that manufactures condensed milk.


Robert Laird Borden: Where did the hon. member get that report?


James Joseph Hughes: From Mr. C. H. Robinson, assistant chemist at the experimental farm.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You should have got Borden's condensed milk.


James Joseph Hughes: This factory at Charlottetown makes condensed mi'lk which is sold all over Canadd, and is used in construction, mining and lumber camps. It is whole milk and is sold at from 10 to 11 cents a pound, yet that factory could not supply -a pound of milk to the troops at Charlottetown, while the department were buying skimmed milk in Halifax at 14^ cents a pound. They were not personae gratae to the [Patronage Committee. I am informed by reputable people that hardly a Liberal in Charlottetown is supplying anything to the troops, and I understand That the same condition prevails at Summerside.


Robert Laird Borden: Was there not a public call for tenders?


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know about that.


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed by the Deputy Minister of Militia that there *was a public call for tenders,


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know what the tenders call for. I saw one of the forms of tender, and it called for powdered -milk. I do net know whether that was the form used in this ease or not; if it was, of course, that factory could not supply it, because it does not deal in, that class of article. It deals in a much better article, and _could supply it at a lower price, at, as I have said, from 10 to 11 cents per pound. At the town of Souris, where 150 soldiers are located, I understand that the officers in charge made some inquiries of different

people with regard to supplies, and, as a matter of fact, Conservatives are supplying the articles. I am told-I cannot state positively whether this is correct or not, although I have the information from a reputable source-that it has been found -that the supplies are about 20- per cent short of weight, and if that can be done- and I am given to understand that a somewhat similar condition exists in other parts of the province-and favoured parties can supply short weights of course they can put in low tenders.


Mr. MORRIS:: Can you give us the names of any parties who supplied short weights?


George Perry Graham: They must have been among the men supplying the goods.


James Joseph Hughes: I wish to draw the attention of the Prime Minister-


James Morris: I have asked the hon. gentleman a question; I have asked whether he can give us the names of any of those farmers who are supplying short weights.


James Joseph Hughes: I have a question on the Order Paper asking for that information, and as soon as I get it I will give it to my hon. friend.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Appoint a commission.


James Joseph Hughes: In connection with the
Militia Department, advertisements have been published asking for students for the Militia College at Kingston. This is in connection with the war and I have here a particular instance of a' Liberal newspaper published in Charlottetown which was not allowed to publish that advertisement. That paper, I know, took an active part in promoting everything connected with the war, publishing freely notices calling meetings for recruiting purposes, and notices in connection with subscription funds, and doing everything that every other newspaper in the province did. In fact, there were no party lines drawn, so far as the people were concerned. Liberals and Conservatives alike have been eager and anxious to do their bit all over the Dominion, and it is the same in the province of Prince Edward Island as in other provinces. And yet this advertisement, calling for young men to attend the Military College, which is supported by the people, for the purpose of qualifying themselves to defend their country in case of need, was withheld from this newspaper. I can give the names
in this instance, but I presume the officers of the Milita Department are well aware that I am stating a fact.
In regard to the medical officers employed in connection with the Army Service, I have this to say: A medical man in Charlottetown, who held a position in the active militia, and whose son or nephew has already given up his life in defence of his country, has not been allowed to examine a single recruit for active service. He has been turned down, although he was an officer in the active militia before the war broke out. These are some of the things that are being done all over the country.
Something has been said here to-day with regard to the surplus of officers in the Old Country, and in Canada. I have information to the effect that there are about 600 officers now in Great Britain who are not employed. I might as well state how I came by that information. Just a few days ago, in the Queen Hotel in Halifax, I happened to be sitting at a table when two officers were discussing the matter. They put it in this way:	They said that there
were 600 Canadian officers " canned " in Great Britain, 600 officers who had nothing to do. They 'appeared to know what they were talking albout. They also said that there were enough officers in the Dominion of Canada to supply an army of one million men, many of them striplings, some of them boys of from 18 to 20 years of age, who would have nothing to do, and for whom there was no possibility of employment; mere boys who could not be placed in charge of troops. A peculiar condition of things, in this connection exists even in this Parliament where we see men in khaki who evidently are not going to the front. Early in this session I myself had an invitation to become an officer. Now, there would be no more chance of my going to the front, or of being of any use as an officer, than of taking a trip to the moon.


An hon. MEMBER:: Hear, hear.


James Joseph Hughes: I would be just as qualified as some men who sit in this House in khaki, and who are in receipt of pay as officers as well as of their indemnity as members. According to a return brought down, their wives are also in receipt of a separation allowance. That is a matter which should receive some consideration. Is there any limit to the demands that are to be made upon the war appropriation fund? If there are 500 or 600 officers in Great Britain who are on the pay roll and

who are doing nothing there; if there are enough officers in Canada to supply an army of a million men, all of whom are on the pay roll, and if there are men sitting in this Parliament who will never by any possibility go to the front, who know they will not go, who never expected to go, and who are in receipt of pay while their wives receive a separation allowance, is it reasonable to suppose that when the people know these things they will be as generous with their subscriptions to the war funds ,as they would be if these matters were conducted properly and honestly and economically as they ought to be. Taken individually, these things are perhaps small, but in the aggregate they amount to a good deal.
There are things that ought to be looked into. I am going to give you concrete cases. The- Prime Minister is not well in-. formed when he states there is no patronage list in this country. He stated this afternoon that as far as he knew there was no patronage list, and in that he may be correct, but I say again that he is not well informed, because every man who- reads that statement will know that it is not correct. The patronage list, in so far as the war is concerned, is just as active as it is in regard to any civil matter in the Government service. It is so in the province from which I come, and I presume it is so in other provinces.


An hon. MEMBER:: No.


James Joseph Hughes: Perhaps not. Well, so much the better. The patronage system should not prevail in any province. The whole of the people of Canada are doing all in their power to win this great war. Liberals just as well as Conservatives, are volunteering, going to the front, they are willing to shed their blood, willing to sacrifice their lives, willing to do everything in their power, and patronage should have no place in a matter of this kind. Now that the Prime Minister is taking a more active part in the expenditure of the money appropriated for war purposes than he has done heretofore, we will probably have a better condition of affairs. I heard that a paymaster at one of the headquarters in Ontario, whose accounts were examined and found not to be correct, was sent to Great Britain as a paymaster at a greatly increased salary.


Robert Laird Borden: Who was he?


James Joseph Hughes: The information will come a little later.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.
(Mr. HUGHES:	I understand he is a
member of a family that is near to the Minister of Militia .and Defence. These are conditions which are existing in the country. It is time for a change, it is time that an improvement should be made, because every person in my province knows that I am stating facts. I regret to have to state them. We will look for better things if the Prime Minister pays more attention to these matters than he has been able to pay in the past.


Mr. A. B. COPP (Westmorland):: I
do not intend to take up very much time of the committee, but I would like to say a few words in regard to the resolution that is now before the House to provide for the war appropriation for the coming year. In doing so I do not desire to assume the role of a critic or to say anything that would seem harsh or unnecessary in regard to the carrying on of our part of the war. But I do want to draw the attention of the right hon. the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden), who is now looking after the Department of Militia and Defence, to some matters that I think are of interest to the people as a whole, and which are of interest to the Government of which he has the honour to be the head. Much has been said this afternoon, while this resolution has been under discussion, in regard to matters that have Come to the attention of hon. members in different parts of the Dominion concerning the carrying on of the war insofar as Canada is concerned. One particular criticism was brought to the attention of the committee to-night of which I heartily approve, and that was in regard to the officers that are being appointed to carry on recruiting and to train and control the men in the regiments -I will not say throughout Canada, because I do not know if this criticism will apply to all parts of the country-but I will say down near my own home in the Maritime Provinces. We all know that a very large number of men have been appointed to responsible positions in connection with the training of recruits and the raising of battalions, without due regard to their military qualifications. These men are selected-I do not want to say without any regard to their fitness for the position-but I do know of many instances where men have been selected and placed in charge of battalions who have not had the slightest military experience before they

put on the King's uniform, and have been made captains and quartermasters in different battalions in the Maritime Provinces. I do not say this because I have any personal feeling against these men. They may be imbued with the most patriotic sentiments, but while that may be true it does not impress the country; it does not impress the young men; it does not impress the men whom we are seeking to enlist in the Canadian army that officers should be selected from people of this class. They are selected from three standpoints, and three standpoints alone-social influence, financial influence and political influence. That is the way selections are made of officers in the Maritime Provinces very largely.


Robert Laird Borden: In which category are those which you refer to?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Pardon me?


Robert Laird Borden: I thought you spoke of a number of Italians having been appointed.


Arthur Bliss Copp: No, I said "in raising battalions." I did not say that any Italians had been appointed. I doubt very much if the Italians would have sufficient social or political influence to warrant their .appointment to these positions in any battalions or any other place.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: I understand that the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) has a son who is an officer in a Nova Scotia battalion. To which class of influence does he owe his position?
M.r. COPP: I do not know to which class, but I understand that that young man had been in the militia for a number of years, that he had 'had considerable experience and that he was qualified for a commission before the war- broke out.


Robert Laird Borden: YTou do make
some exceptions?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes. I am sincere in what I am saying to this committee to-night. I am saying absolutely what I believe to be true and with a proper regard to the spirit in which the war should .be .carried on. I am not here to say that there have been no Liberals appointed but I am here to complain that there have been a large number of officers appointed in the Maritime Provinces who have not had the slightest experience and who are	no
more fitted to be majors, captains or quarter-masters than I am, and I have
not had the slightest experience in the world. .My hon. friends have mentioned a number of things in regard to the treatment of soldiers who have been punished for lapses in conduct. As far as I am personally concerned I admire the man who takes upon himself the duties of citizenship and enlists as one of our soldiers to go forth and do his part in this war. I admire and respect that man. I believe, however, that you cannot carry on a war, or properly train soldiers without a certain amount of discipline. It is absolutely necessary that there should be proper discipline, but while I admife discipline I detest military snobbishness, and there is a great deal of that in this country at the present time. Just because a man happens to be an officer and holds a little higher rank than somebody else has, he has no right to abuse his authority in the way a number of military officers are doing in this country. The punishments that have been meted out to soldiers in the ranks have been reported in the newspapers, and are absolutely true.


Robert Laird Borden: What was the character of the punishments?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It was spoken of in the House here to-day-a man strung up by the arms for example.


Robert Laird Borden: Has the hon.
gentleman any other instances of that kind?


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have no instances of that
kind to,give. I am not speaking from my own knowledge of the harsh treatment some of the privates receive from their officers. The point I am making is that, the privates are very often treated as if they were far below the officers. We are all Canadians, and the private may come from just as good a family and have just as good blood in his veins as the officer who happens to have been chosen through influence; and simply because an officer has that influence is no reason why the private should be abused and trampled upon, as they are in many training camps throughout the country.
With regard to this vote, I am sure there is not a member of tills House but who intends to vote it cheerfully. At the same time I think it devolves upon us, as representing the people of this country, to demand that the money shall be honestly and reasonably expended for the purpose for which it is intended. No one, I am sure, could have occupied a seat in this House for even so short a time as I have, and heard the evidence given at meet-
32G6

ings of the Public Accounts Committee, without coming to the conclusion that the money that has been voted for war purposes during the last two years .has not all been expended with that degree of care that should have been exercised. A number of instances have been given, and tonight I wish to draw .the attention of my right hon. friend to an expenditure which has been much talked about in the province of New Brunswick, near my home town. I know the location very well; it is in the constituency of my hon. friend the member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes), and I may say that we live very happily together in adjoining towns. If the statements that have been made by a large number of people in that constituency, and that have appeared in the press, in regard to the expenditure of a sum of money last year in the preparation of a building for the billetting of the soldiers in that particular town are true an investigation should certainly be held, to ascertain whether or not this large amount of money was, not to use a harsher term, absolutely wasted. If the reports in regard to the expenditure of that sum of money in the constituency of my hon. friend are true, and if his attitude on patronage is what he publicly stated it to be at the Forum the other night, then I must congratulate him for having had a very sudden change of heart in regard to the -patronage system. I hold in my hand a reputable paper published in the province of New Brunswick, which makes very serious charges with regard to the expenditure of public money in the county of Cumberland, for the purpose of fitting up a building to accommodate the soldiers who were in training there in the year 1915. The editor of this paper is a responsible gentleman, both financially and otherwise, and claims to have made a careful personal examination into the matter. Several times .he has demanded an investigation, and is prepared to prove his statements. I shall read a few of the charges he makes, but I might first of all say that although we have plenty of lumber close to Cumberland county, while the lumber that was used in this building was purchased some distance away, in the county of Hants, and brought over two railway lines to Amherst. We must not forget that there were already two public buildings in Amherst which could have [DOT] been used-the armoury and the winter fair building. However, they fitted up these barracks for the soldiers at the extraordin-
ary cost of between $25,000 and $30,000. The soldiers remained in the building only a few months, and last winter it was dismantled, .and the soldiers quartered in another place. If this is true it was certainly an extravagant expenditure, to use no harsher term. After the building had been fitted up, then arose the question as to provisions, groceries, meats, and hay and oats, because horses were to be billeted there as well as soldiers. The Prime Minister said this afternoon that he had not 'heard there were any patronage lists. He did not say there were none; I am sorry he was not able to say that. If he had attended the meetings of the Public Accounts Committee this session he would have heard the Director of Contracts state under oath that there was a patronage list in the Militia Department, and that it had been prepared shortly after the election of 1911, and that the material required by the department was purchased from persons whose names appeared on that list. Whether he was mistaken or not, I cannot say; I do not know anything to the contrary; but I can tell the Prime Minister that if he does not know that there are patronage lists, he is not aware of what takes place in different constituencies throughout the country when supplies and provisions are purchased for the maintenance of the troops. I know what takes place in my portion of the country.


Mr. MORPHY:: Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that these supplies are not ah purchase*! subject to public tender?
Mr. OGPlP:	They are not purchased
subject to public tender. Further, in certain localities the patronage is not merely confined to the Conservative party, but it is confined to an inner ring of that party, the ordinary Conservatives being excluded, and only a very select few allowed to tender for supplying the troops.
. As an illustration, would you be surprised, Mr Chairman, to know that -the contract for coal in the town of Amhurst was given to an ice cream and oyster vendor who never handled coal in his life before. That is the charge made by the newspaper which I hold in my hand. Let me read portions of a long article on this subject:
A resume of the rumours, which are current, not only in Amherst but elsewhere throughout the Maritime Provinces, and which seems to justify the demands for a parliamentary or a special investigation into the facts will be found in the statement contained herein. ************


1CJ6
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Among the amounts paid were $7,355 for lumber bought from the Brooklyn Lumber Co., of Brooklyn, N.S., of which Company Mr. E. N. Rhodes, M.P. is said to be President and Senator Curry, a Director. This lumber, much of which, it is reported was shaky hemlock, was brought from Brooklyn in Hants county, over the Midland railway to Truro and from there to Amherst over the Intercolonial. It was freighted 75 miles before it reached the boundary line of Cumberland, which is known as a big lumber producing county. Why? Do the names mentioned furnish an answer?
For heating and lighting the buildings, the Canadian Car and Foundry Co. was paid $2,000. For plumbing there was paid $2,360, for cook-ranges $1,380 and incidentally $1,663 wag paid to the foreman of the job, who was not a carpenter nor a builder, but a Conservative on the inside. He was only engaged on the work about five or six weeks. No man could get a day's work unless O.Ked by the Tory Patronage Committee.
************
Public tenders were never called by advertisement it is reported.
There was a farce of private tendering.
Even these forms of tender it is said, were only to be had at one office, and only by those not only of the right political stripe but within the ring.
For instance, a leading hay dealer of Amherst, who happened to be a Liberal, tried to get a chance to tender on the hay (to be" provided for the horses.) He was told
That $17 a ton would be highway robbery and anyway he could not get a chance to tender because he was of the wrong political stripe. Within a week the contract for hay was awarded to one of the ring at $21 per ton.
One of the leading meat supply firms of Amherst desired to tender for the beef required. One of the members of this firm was a strong supporter of Mr. Rhodes at the last election, but he was not in the ring and although he made repeated applications for a chance to tender on the beef he failed to get an opportunity of doing so. He was told by one of the ring that beef should be supplied for about eleven cents a pound, but within a few days the contract was awarded to the same man who got the hay contract at the price of fourteen cents per pound. This gentleman made a contract with the Harris Abbatoir Company of Hamilton, Ont., to supply him with beef required at ten and a half cents a pound delivered in Amherst. As there was used between 1,500 and 2,000 poqnds per day it can be seen that there was a profit of somewhere between $52,50 and $70 per day in beef alone.
There are several large bakeries in Amherst and although their proprietors had -worked hard for Mr. Rhodes at the last election and spent their time and money in his interests they were outside of the ring and were passed by. The contract was given to a wholesale grocer.
The contract for vegetables was given to this same wholesale grocer at an extravagant price (although he was not engaged in the vegetable business) and who sub-let it to a lesser member of the ring.
The contract for coal was given, without tender, to the proprietor of an ice-cream parlor and oyster saloon, who up to that time had
never been engaged in the coal business but the price he received was encouraging to say the least.
Now, even suppose that these statements are incorrect, some investigation should be held, for these allegations go forth to the country and if they are incorrect they do a great injustice to those in charge of these matters. But the people are very sensitive in regard to the expenditure of these war appropriations. They might not care for a few dollars in regard to ordinary expenditures; but when they realize that day after day and week after week they are called upon at every street corner to subscribe to good causes in connection with the war- and they are glad to give what they can afford to give-and when they are told that money is being squandered and wasted, not to use a harsher name, in patronage contracts given to friends of the Government, the contrast between the sacrifices they are making and the unjust advantage which others are gaining arouses the keenest dissatisfaction. The people expect a square, honest, careful expenditure of the money voted by this Parliament to the Govern- . ment for the carrying on of this war. The Prime Minister this afternoon said that he did not knoyv of any patronage list from which provisions were purchased for the Militia Department. Now, saying nothing of the past, however unfortunate it may be that we have been extravagant-for the. past is gone-I would ask the Prime Minister to go a step further and say that if there is a patronage list at the present time there should be no patronage list in the future, so far as concerns the expenditure of the money passed under this resolution. I have felt it my duty to call the attention of the committee to instances of what is believed to be extravagance in the expenditure of money voted for the war.
I hope that in the future greater care will be exercised and that we shall have a better report in regard to the expenditure of the money now to be voted than we have had in regard to the money voted in former years.
Mr: EDGAR N. RHODES (Cumberland):
I could have hoped that my hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp) who has had some twenty or twenty-five years' exjperi-ence in 'public life, off and on, would have had the kindness to advise me of his intention to speak about the way mhtters have been administered in the constituency of Cumberland which I have the honour to represent, particularly in view of the eir-
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cumstance that being chairman of committees I am debarred from taking an active part in the debate. I certainly should not have spoken under ordinary conditions, but I could not sit quietly in the chair and listen to wild, outrageous, and absolutely unfounded assertions as I shall be able to show them to be. I cannot at the moment speak from the documents, for I have not them with me, but I might have had them here had I had notice that I should be called upon to deal with these charges. The hon. member has been entirely misinformed. When troops were first brought to Amherst, there was a certain urgency in the matter of securing tenders as it was supposed that the troops would be brought there at an earlier date than they were. At that time, a supply officer of the Department came and left with me certain tender forms, asking me to submit these to various contractors in my constituency. Now, I wish to state the case exactly as it happened. I made particular inquiry of him as to whether this was the method which had obtained in the department, and he told me it was the method that had obtained for many years. I wish to assume entire responsibility for the manner in which these contract forms were at that time distributed. I took care, having regard to the system which had obtained in this country, that these tenders were handed to my political friends and not to my political opponents. I am not here to defend that	system.
I deplore the patronage	system.
I believe that it is a canker which is eating into the body politic of this country and I am willing to assist in every possible way in an attempt to eradicate it. That was the system which obtained, however, and I took care that tender forms were at that time placed in the hands of those who had been my political supporters. That is what hon. gentlemen opposite would do; that is what hon. gentlemen apposite have done; that is what I did, having regard to the circumstances, and knowing that that was the system which had obtained up to that time. But I did not approve of the system-and I have discussed the matter since on various occasions with different responsible officers of the Militia Department. Excepting those contracts which were awarded in the first instance, every contract in the constituency which I have the honour to represent has been awarded on open contract and by competition. As an evidence of that let me 
say that the very man whom the hon. member for Westmorland referred to a short time ago as not receiving a contract in the first instance is to-day the meat contractor in the town of Amherst, and he was a violent opponent of mine in the last political contest, but I find no fault with that. I have had absolutely nothing whatever to do directly or indirectly, with the awarding of contracts in the constituency of Cumberland since that first and only case. Troops have been quartered in the town of Springhill for several months. I wish to tell the hon. member for Westmorland that I do not know the name of a single contractor in the town who is supplying foodstuffs to the troops. At the request of the War Purchasing Commission, which did not receive a sufficient number of tenders in response to advertisements which were posted in public places in Springhill, I gave the name of every merchant in that town, Liberal and Conservative. The statement that I make in respect of the town of Springhill is absolutely true in respect of the town of Amherst; I do not know who the contractors are in Amherst to-day. I happen to know something about the meat contract because of some peculiar conditions that arose, and in regard to which I made particular inquiries. I was not consulted in any shape or form with respect to the awarding of contracts, and I state my absolute belief that they were awarded aftei competition and to the lowest tenderer.
My hon. friend drew some evidences of mirth from some hon. gentlemen on his side of the House by stating that a certain coal contract had been awarded to an ice-cream vendor, a man, he said, who had never been in the coal business. This ice-cream vendor, to my certain knowledge, has been in the coal business for at least ten years. He sells coal to the public in the town of Amherst to-day and he has done so in the years gone by. I do not think because a man happens to sell a few quarts of ice-cream or any other commodity that he should be debarred from selling coal. It seems to me that the two important considerations are: Was the coal of good quality, and was it sold at a fair price?
I notice, too, that the hon. member for Westmorland skated on thin ice when he discussed the question of lumber supplies. .He did not tell the committee that the company which supplied lumber was one of which I am president and in the stock of which I hold a fifth interest. I do not think that this is a matter to be hidden. As a matter of fact, it is well known that

I am in the lumber business and have been for a great many years:	I was very glad
indeed to find out, for the first time after the contract had been awarded, that a contract had been given to the company of which I am president. I am in the lumber business and I do not see why, becauses I am a member of Parliament that the company with which I am connected should be debarred from doing a certain amount of legitimate business, provided the company has lumber to sell and sells it at a fair price.
I do not purpose going into that matter further than to say that the lumber was, I believe, of fair quality and that it was sold at a fair price. By reason of its being dried in the open air it really had to be purchased from that company at ' that time, having regard to the fact that a large quantity was required at a season of the year when that quality of lumber could not be purchased from mills which had sold and shipped their whole cut.
I want to make the assertion positively, so that there can be no misunderstanding in respect to it, that so far as the constituency of Cumberland is concerned-I can speak only of that constituency, because I have not been concerned with outside constituencies-every contract for supplies is awarded on open tender and absolutely without respect to a man's political qualifications. I do not think the hon. member for Westmorland would have made the rash statements that he did make if there did not happen to be within the precincts of the building to-night one of the most prominent Liberals in my constituency. The hon. member for Westmorland has probably had a prod from him; that gentleman wished to take home with him some statement that Rhodes wa? getting a little bit of criticism in the House of Commons. There is in the constituency which 1 represent a newspaper which was founded solely and entirely for partisan purposes;
I refer to the Amherst Guardian an out and out Liberal sheet. That paper, published in my constituency, has not published any such statements as are published in the paper which my hon. friend has read. He reads from a paper which is published in his constituency, some 50 miles from the town in which I live. That paper would not dare publish such statements in the constituency in which I live. The hon. member made an appeal here to-night, as if, perforce, he were being shut off in the matter of investigation. Does he not know that the Prime Minister did something that was never heretofore done
in the Dominion of Canada-never done, so far as I know, in any British country before? He established a Royal Commission, with a roving commission, travelling up and down the length and breadth of this country and inviting people to lay charges against the Administration. That commission was in the province of Nova Scotia, and I myself caused an editorial to be published in the Amherst Daily News, a paper which is friendly to myself, inviting any one who had a charge to make in that constituency to bring it before the commission. Did they do so? Not at all. Then, does my my hon. friend forget that there is a Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons? It is the easiest thing in the world for him to have these various matters investigated, and I may say that I shall be only too happy to assist him. If there is anything wrong in the manner in which this Government business has been conducted in my constituency, I want to know it, not for partisan purposes, but in the public interest, and I am just as anxious to know it as my hon. friend is. I repeat that I shall assist him in full measure if he will cause these matters to be brought before the Public Accounts Committee; I welcome an opportunity of having them investigated.
Troops were brought to Amherst in the first instance, and they were quartered in the building of the Canada Car and Foundry Company. I have no interest in the Canada Car and Foundry Company; I do not own a dollar's worth of stock, nor does any member of my immediate family.
I have no interest directly or indirectly in it, except that I happen to be local solicitor for the company-I say that only in passing. I wanted to see troops brought to Amherst because of the peculiar conditions at that time. Following the industrial depression, large buildings suitable for the accommodation of troops were vacant, anu the quartering of a regiment in the town at that time would have been of great lofad benefit. Amherst is strategically located as the geographical centre of the Maritime Provinces; the military authorities at Halifax were only too happy to see the troops brought into Amherst, and I was only too happy to lend my assistance to their being brought there. They were given the use of the buildings of the Canada Oar and Foundry Company, without the cost of one dollar by way of charge. The company have asked to be reimbursed for certain expenditures to which they were put, but there has been no charge for rental of the
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buildings used by the Hoops. _ Insurance rates, which were of a favourable character, were raised, and the Government is being asked to pay the difference between the insurance rate which the company pays in ordinary times and the increased rate which was demanded by reason of the occupation of the building by the troops.
Arthur Bliss Copp: Does the hon. member know what it cost to put the building in condition?	.


Mr. RHODES:: I think it was somewhere in the vicinity of $26,000. However, the answer is open to my hon. friend, because this matter has been the subject of various questions by him, and I think others during this and the previous session. But it must be borne in mind that while the winter fair building was available for the use of the troops at that time, the military authorities then decided not to use that building for this reason:	Quarters were
being fitted up at that time for the 22nd French-Canadian Battalion, which came from Quebec, and also for the 6th Mounted Rifles, and for the use of the 6th Mounted Rifles it was necessary to have a building where 750 horse stalls could be built for the accommodation of their horses. There was not room in the winter fair building for the two regiments. If they had used the winter fair building it could only have been used for one regiment. There was no building within a mile of the winter fair building which could accommodate the horses, and as there were available two buildings within a distance of some 50 or 60 feet, which are part of the works of the Canada Car and Foundry Company, one of those buildings was used for the accommodation of the men and the other for the horses. The military authorities were thus compelled to select the buildings of the Canada Car and Foundry Company at that time. This year the winter fair building has been used, for the reason that no accommodation for horses was required, and it was well adapted as a barracks for the men. Furthermore, it was owned by the town of Amherst, and it was given rent free, with an understanding on the part of the town that it would be available for the uses of the Government until the war is over. The abandonment of the quarters in the buildings of the Canada Car and Foundry Company did not involve any loss; in fact, even with the additional cost of fitting up the winter fair building, the Government will be in pocket, for the reason that the 
extra insurance and the various incidental charges of watchmen and that sort of thing would make the continued occupation of the Car and Foundry Company's building far more expensive than to pull out the fittings, as was done, and transport them to Aldershot to be used for military purposes. Let me point out that while the cost of the equipment of quarters in the building of the Canada Car and
10 p.m. Foundry Company was something like $26,000, that cost included accommodation for one full regiment of infantry, a squadron of cavalry, and in addition, 750 horses; that the buildings that were fitted up this year-that is the winter fair buildings-were fitted up for the accommodation of one infantry regiment alone; and if my hon. friend will look at the returns which he has before him, he will observe that it cost more to fit up the buildings this year for the one regiment of infantry than it cost last year for the regiment of infantry, the squadron or cavalry, and the horses, combined. So he need not draw any comfort from the circumstance that a large sum of money was spent in buildings owned by the Canada Car and Foundry Company.
I do not know that I have covered all of the ground which has been gone over by my hon. friend, but I wish to do so. I do not wish to avoid any detail, and if there are any questions in connection with the matter which the hon. gentleman wishes to raise, I should be glad if he would do so.
The hon. member criticised the awarding of a contract for hay and fodder. I have only this to say with respect to that contract, that I was responsible for its having been awarded. It was given in the manner I have indicated, being one of the first awarded. I saw that it went to one of the most responsible and honourable farmers in the constituency, a man in whom I have entire confidence. My hon. friend criticised the prices, but he did not tell the committee that the Government did not buy a pound of hay, Let alone sqveral hundred tons, with the result that this farmer, on this contract, lost something over $1,000. I have been importuning the Militia Department for nearly a year asking them to compensate this man for his loss on the contract, and I believe that I have them convinced that he has a just claim and that he will be paid at least a portion of his loss. So far from having made any profit on the contract, he made a loss of the amount I

have mentioned. My hon. friend also says that one prominent Liberal was told that he could not get a contract because he was a Liberal. I would like to know who made the statement; I would like to have names.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I read it in the newspaper.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes,, but about threequarters of what you read in the papers was not true.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That may be.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: And the other quarter
was a very substantial loqking structure built out of a very delicate fabric; there was a very small modicum of substance in any of the statements which the hon. gentleman read from the newspaper. I do not know that I need take up the time of the committee at greater length except to say that there is no good purpose to be served by making wild statements in the House. If the hon. gentleman has any ground for believing that anything is wrong in connection with the awarding of contracts, his . remedy is open and he can have it out in the Public Accounts Committee to his heart's content) and I for one, just as well as my hon. friend for Westmorland, will welcome the opportunity of seeing these various matters investigated.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend has taken us very fully into his confidence, in regard to the awarding of contracts in Cumberland county. If it was a proper thing to give notice of my intention to bring up this matter, 1 offer my [DOT]'apologies for not doing so, because I certainly did not know that it .*.as customary on referring to a small matter like this to give any particular notice. 1 brought it up, not because I had the slightest feeling in regard to the matter. My hon. friend and myself have always been personally very warm friends, and I trust we may remain so. I brought this matter up because it had been brought to my attention, as I said at the outset, by a very reputable and responsible public journal in the countty of Westmorland, in New Brunswick. The editor of this , journal is, both financialy and in every way, responsible to answer for any charges that he makes in regard to public matters. I distinctly stated that I was taking my information from the newspaper that had published the statements and I was bringing it to the attention of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister for if it was true it was a disgrace and a shame that
the money had been so wasted by extravagance in the carrying on of the work in the adjoining county of Cumberland. I wish to -say to my hon. friend that if it was not true it should be cleared up because it was attracting a great deal of attention in that 'quarter and was -being used in a manner very detrimental to the Government as well as to recruiting in that portion of the country. But my hon. friend from Cumberland arose in his place and said that he was going to dissipate this allegation entirely and to show that what I said was absolutely made out of whole cloth and really had no foundation in fact. Let me say to my hon. friend that in the very first words he uttered he admitted the very charge I made.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I will assume that the hon. member wishes to be fair. I said that, following the custom of the Militia Department in the past, contracts over a year ago had been awarded. What is the date of the newspaper from which my hon. friend has read.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It is with reference to the
billeting of soldiers in 1915.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have stated that for
over a year contracts have been awarded in my constituency upon open tenders. Not a word does my hon. friend say about that.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If my hon. friend will have patience, I will say a word about that. I want to say a word or two about the state^ ment which he made that what I said was absolutely without foundation. He made the admission that those contracts for the hay, and for the provisioning of the camp, were made by himself in the way in which this paper states they were made, without regard to tender, and given to his own political friends. That is what the hon. gentleman said.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The first contract was
made by tender and contract, but the tenders were not publicly advertised. They were not given publicity, but the contracts were made upon tender.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I will acceipt my hon.
friend's word that it was made on tender, but the only people who were allowed to tender were the political friends of the hon. gentleman.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes, in the first instance.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is what I was talking about. That is the charge which is made

in this paper, that it was in the first instance. My hon. friend says that tenders were called for and that contracts were awarded, and he excuses himself on the ground that it had been the practice of the former Government to act in the same way.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I said the practice of
the department; I did not mention Government at all.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The practice in the department, if my hon. friend wishes to play upon words. Let me point out that when tenders were called for by the department 'in the past it was in time of peace, and not in, time of war. Let me go a little further. If he wants to hide behind the statement that it was the practice followed 'by the Militia Department under the previous Government, let me ask him if that is a sufficient excuse. He admits that it is wrong; he admits that he has changed it, and, forsooth, because I draw the attention of the committee to the fact, he says I have made a statement that is without foundation in fact. I appeal to this committee; I ask toy hon. friend; and I ask the people of this country whether or not the charges made by the newspaper which I have read are not absolutely admitted by the hon. member for the county of Cumberland.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The effect of the hon. member's statement, as it would appear in Depress to-morrow, would be that the practice of this Government was not to award contracts by tender and contract or by the publication of tenders, but that it was the practice to award contracts under a system of political patronage, which is entirely and absolutely untrue.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I will come to that. I do not want to take the least advantage of my hon. friend, or to allow anything to go out to the public press that is not absolutely correct. I do not wish to do any injustice to my hon. friend. I read extracts from an article in the Moncton Transcript which referred) entirely to the billeting of soldiers in the winter of 1915, and my hon. friend admits that at that time the contracts were let upon tenders from his political friends. We are agreed upon that particular phase of the matter. My hon, friend now says that he has changed that practice.
Mr, RHODES: I did not say that I changed it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It has been changed.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I presume my h6n. friend had something to do with the change. He would recommend it, I suppose. Did he approve or recommend the change?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I thoroughly approve of it<.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend will not go so far as to say that he recommended it, but he approves of it. I did not speak of what went on during the past winter. I am glad to have the admission of my hon. friend that in the county of Cumberland the old system is not being followed now. But he must not forget that while he may play a little upon words,,' facts are stubborn things. When he says that he does not know of a single individual in the town of Springhill who is supplying provisions- for the soldiers billeted there, does he mean that his patronage committee do not know?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: In the first place I have no patronage committee in Springhill. In the second place, I wish to be frank, it will be news to me if any of my political supporters have influenced the letting of contracts in the town of Springfield in the slightest degree. I know that every man in the town of Springhill, Liberal and Conservative alike, has had equal opportunity to tender for supplies, and I would be very much surprised if the lowest tenderer did not get the contract in every instance.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That does not answer my
question.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Put it again, and I will try to answer it. I thought I did answer it/


Arthur Bliss Copp: You said so far as you
know.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I cannot go further than that. What more can I say?


George Perry Graham: He means that your
knowledge might go further.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The hon. gentleman says he does not know of any case, and I accept his word, but probably there are many things going on in his county of which he does not know. I would like to ask whether he has not a patronage committee in his county?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have not, and never had a patronage committee in my constituency.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Nor any one acting for him?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I consult my friends constantly, daily, with Tespect to matters

affecting my constituency that are not matters of patronage at all.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would ask whether my
hon. friend's law partner did not have something to do with the political patronage in his county?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: No doubt he had.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Then in common parlance
would my hon. friend not say that his partner was a dispenser of patronage when he was not there? I want to be perfectly fair. When my hon. friend tells us that there is no dispenser of patronage in the county of Cumberland-well, I live very close to that county and have been there and have consulted some of the very men who claim to be dispensers of patronage.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Who?


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend's law partner.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Did he claim to be the dispenser of patronage?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes. Is it not correct? Does my hon. friend claim that he is not the dispenser of'patronage?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not know that any particular purpoos'e can be served by catechising me with respect to my relations with the gentleman referred to. In the first place he is not my partner; I presume my hon. friend refers to the gentleman who was at one time my partner.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Until very recently.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Until the beginning of the year. I did not consult him any more frequently than I did many other men in my constituency, and I am not aware of his handling patronage- in any particular degree. I do not believe that, he has been consulted with respect to one of those contracts. I wish to be frank with my hon. friend. The situation is this: The contracts are awarded by the War Purchasing Commission, and I shall be very much surprised if they are consulting anybody with respect to the awarding of those contracts. They have not consulted me, and I think that if they had to consult anybody it would be me. The only contact I have had with the commission was, as I have said, when I gave them a full list of names of the merchants in the town of Springhill for the reason that no sufficient response had been made by the merchants to the public call for tenders.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend has not satisfied me, nor, I think, the committee,
as to whether or not this man, or some one else, up till very recently at least, looked after patronage matters.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I tell my hon. friend that I do not bplieve that Mr. Sterne has been consulted in the slightest degree with respect to the awarding of those contracts,


Arthur Bliss Copp: Do not cover up this thing; let us get at the facts. What I have said is based on my knowledge of Cumberland County and upon information that I have. I have had business relations with Mr. Sterne. Surely my hon. friend would not attempt to make us believe that he had not some one in the county of Cumberland to look after the dispensing of patronage


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: We- were discussing the
question of purchases by the Militia Department. I am consulting Mr. Sterne every day with respect to appointments in my constituency. Only to-day I recommended the appointment of a returned soldier as a letter carrier in Amherst. I do not know the man's religion or polities. I wired Mr. Sterne to know if he thought this man would be suitable for the position, and he wired back " yes." I know the man, I have known him for a number of years, but I do not know his religion or politics.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does not that exactly prove what I .say, that Mr. Sterne is the dispenser of patronage and that he is referred to by my hon. friend whenever an appointment is made? My hon. friend applies to him in connection with the appointment of this man. He had to get Mr. Sterne's recommendation before he appointed him. I am not making any charges, but I have a suspicion in my own mind that Mr. Sterne had found out that this gentleman who was appointed recently would be very acceptable to my hon. friend in Amherst. My hon. friend says that recently all contracts have been let by tender and to the lowest tenderer.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I believe so.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That being so, I want to congratulate my hon. friend upon having taken that course in regard to war expenditures, particularly because if there are any expenditures in regard to which no patronage should be -allowed they are the expenditures in connection with this war . My hon. friend apparently would like to have this committee believe that because there was no hay purchased, the statement I made was absolutely -incorrect. I told the committee, when I referred to it, th-at they expected to have

horses billeted there, and contracts for hay were let. I did not attempt to deceive the committee by saying that there was any hay supplied, because 'I knew better than that.
I knew there was no hay supplied. In fact, my hon. friend was being importuned to make up for the loss because some of his friends did not get an opportunity to supply hay and oats. But still the fact remains that a contract for hay was made and my hon. friend admits that the price was to be $21 per ton at Amherst.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I did not admit that; I did not say anything with respect to the price at all.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Was not $21 a ton the price?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It may have been-I have not the figures before me-'but I did not mention the price.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Well, the statement was made that it was $21 -a ton and if my hon. friend, does not know, surely we may take it for granted that that was the price at which the hay was contracted for. My hon. friend knows as well as I do that at that time-$21 a ton was $3 or $4 more than hay was being purchased for.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not know anything of the kind.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Then I may inform my hon. friend that $21 a ton was $3 or $4 more than the highest price the farmers were being paid for hay at that time. He says that he had that contract let himself to his own political friends at $21 a ton with the expectation that a large quantity of hay would be used for billeting h'OTses and remounts at that place during that winter. The principle involved ig what I am talking about and what I am trying to impress upon the Prime Minister is that in the expenditure of this war vote he should see to it that no patronage is allowed to creep in or that any excessive prices, are allowed to friends of the Government when supplies are purchased. My hon. friend also claims that I have made these remarks because there is a prominent Liberal from Amherst here. That was the first intimation that I had that there was a prominent Liberal from Amherst here, and I shall be very glad to see him, hut his presence has nothing to do with my remarks upon this question, I simply brought the matter to the attention of my hon. friend in the most candid manner feeling that extravagance bad occurred in the past and hoping 
that it would not occur in the future. My hon. friend says that the cost of fitting up the Canada Car and Foundry building for troops was some *[DOT]$26,000.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: State the figures approximately.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is approximately correct. There is a building that w.as fitted up for troops and for only five months at a cost of $26,000; it cost another large amount of money to demolish it and fit up a building somewhere else. When this building was fitted up for the billeting of soldiers during five months of the winter, why was it necessary to dismantle it and go to the expense of fitting up another place in the same town for the billeting of soldiers? If that is reasonable, if that is good business, then I admit that I do not know anything about what good business is. After this large expenditure had been incurred for fitting up and arranging the building I cannot understand why it was necessary to tear it down after one winter's use and go to expense in fitting up another place.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Probably the prevailing reason was that the building was not available for continuous use. It was being used this winter for the construction of cars, not to as large an extent as it was, but in part and it is being used now for that purpose.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If this building was only
going to be wanted for one winter it was hardly necessary, even though it gave to my hon. friend's company a chance to sup-/ply a certain amount of lumber, to fit it up. It does not seem to have been good business enterprise, even although the lumber was supplied by my hon. friend's company, to fit this building up when it was only going to be used for five months. My hon. friend asked me to bring this matter before the Public Accounts Committee. It is not necessary to bring it before the Public Accounts Committee because he admits the charges in regard to the letting of contracts and that is what this whole newspaper article and argument- are about. No word has been said about the letting of contracts during this past winter and I have not heard anything with regard to it? If he had pursued the course that he tells the committee he has pursueid, he would be able to tell us that contracts had gone to the lowest tenderer. If my hon. friend had pursued that course no fault could be found with him. But my hon. friend says that a commission went

down through the Maritime Provinces last summer, that invitations were held out to parties having charges to make against the Government, or any department of the Government, to go and make their charges, and they would be investigated.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That is right.
*Mr. OOiPP: That may be true. But what better position should we be in to-day if that 'Commission that went through Nova Scotia had investigated these charges and taken evidence? We should not have known anything more aJbout it than we do to-day. We have no report from that Commission as to the charges they did investigate in Nova Scotia; we know nothing whatever about it. My hon. friend from Cumberland has admitted that the charges made by the Moncton Transcript are absolutely correct. While he admits he did wrong-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: No, I do not.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If it was not wrong at first it would not be wrong now. My hon. friend took great credit to himself just now that tenders had 'been called for in every instance, and contracts let to the lowest tenderer. If you read between the lines you could see that he was taking great credit/to himself for that, because it would have been discreditable to do the business in any other way. I repeat, the charges have been admitted by my hon. friend, and I trust that, now he has apparently resolved to do better in the future, his example will be followed by all the other members from the Maritime Provinces.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK (Red Deer):: I intervene	in this discussion
with some	reluctance,	because I
have a very great question in my mind * as to whether this discussion should really be taking place. I think, Sir, there is room for grave doubt whether we are not losing our sense of proportion in the greatest crisis that has ever been passed through by this country, by this Empire, by the world, and by the world's prospects of the advance of civilization. I intervene from a strict sense of duty, and because I think it would be unfortunate that a vote of this magnitude in connection with a war of this magnitude, should pass without a note of clear support of the Government at this crisis, coming from this side of the House.
I come from a province where up to the
present moment we have recruited 2,656 more men than make our quota towards the
500,000	at which the Government is aiming. That is a fact of which, as an Albertan, I am reasonably proud, and that is a fact for which I find the explanation, if it is to be found, in this: that the people of Alberta are not so much concerned where the sugar is being got for the troops, as they are in getting the troops and beating the Germans.
I listened with very great care to the statement of my right bon. friend the Prime Minister from beginning to end. I listened to it calmly, and as I listened I was proud to be a citizen o.f Canada, and proud to he a citizen of Canada because of what the present Government of Canada has done in connection with this war. There were certain things which loomed up before my mind as I listened to that statement, and the first thing with which I was impressed was the magnitude of the burdens and the responsibilities which came upon the Government of a small portion of the British Empire with the swiftness and the suddenness that we know characterized the commencement of this war. It was my privilege, as it was my honour, at the beginning of the war, and as it has been more than once since, to express what was my clear convictions then, and what is equally my clear conviction now; that the head of this Government and the Government itself and the majority of its supporters were seized at once with the importance of the issues, and bent their whole energies to the task of contributing a proper quota on the part of Canada to the successful prosecution of the war. That was my conviction then and it is my conviction now. and I am clear in my own mind that history will record-whatever may be the petty political fortunes of party in this country at the next or any other election

I am confident that the impartial historian will record that my right hon. friend who leads the Government has from the day the war-cloud burst kept a single eye to the winning of the war, and has not been led aside or diverted from that purpose by any small motive or any small consideration whatsoever.
The next thing that loomed out in front of me as I listened to the statement of the Prime Minister was the point that was referred to by the right hon. gentleman himself, and that was the tremendous task which had fallen upon a.large and momentarily increasing number of the staff of the Militia Department, and of the loyalty


Hon. PRANK OLIVER:: (Edmonton) I wish to ask a few questions in regard to matters more or less directly connected with the subject now before the committee, and I will do so later if this is a suitable occasion to secure information with regard to matters of detail.


Robert Laird Borden: There are a few matters about which inquiry is made, and I will speak very, briefly with regard to these and then take up what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) wants to know. If I am not able to give the information he requires, I shall have inquiry made, so that the information may be available at a later stage.


Frank Oliver: My intention was to ask questions with regard to matters of administration, but I will forego that for the moment. The hon. member for Red Deer has introduced a new note into this debate. Up to the present time, as I understood it, no question had come before the committee as to any lack of support to the Government in its proposals before the House. I understood that there was absolute unanimity in willingness to vote the money and support the Government. But there has been discussion in committee, as is right and proper, as to matters of detail. Some of these matters might foe of greater importance and some might be of lesser importance, but I submit that all this discussion was with a view to securing greater advantage and a greater efficiency in the proposals of the Government, in its administration and in its expenditure. If my hon. friend takes the position that because this country is at war the Government must be supported in everything, right or wrong, good or bad, and that that must be done with a view to securing success in the war, I can only say to him that in my humble judgment that is the wrong way to secure success. Success will never be achieved by that means.


Michael Clark: Can my hon. friend quote a phrase from what I said that would indicate that as an opinion of mine-not a phrase?


Frank Oliver: My memory is not good for details, but I gathered from the enthusiastic applause with which his remarks were received that that was their import, to our friends on the other side at any rate.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: I should say that the silence on your own side would indicate that.


Frank Oliver: I think my hon. friend (Mr. Clark) said very specifically that he had not time to criticise or assist in criticism of the Government at this present time. He declared that the Government was doing the best that could be done, or if it was not, it was to be excused for not having done that very best. My appreciation of the position is this: while we recognize the stupendous responsibilities that have been placed upon the Government of the day by the outbreak of war; while we recognize that the conditions, call for every support that is possible to be given to the Government in the discharge of those responsibilities, the very fact of the greatness of the responsibilities that are on the shoulders of the Government lays the responsibility upon the shoulders of -members of the Opposition to take their proper part as critics of the action of the Government, and they cannot divest themselves of that responsibility by saying yea and amen to everything that is put before them by the Government. There has not been captious or partisan criticism of the Government during this debate. There has been no unworthy criticism of the Government or its administration. What might seem to be trivial matters may have been considered, and some important matters may have been considered, but I ask this committee, who is to say that a matter which tends to affect the mind of the people at this particular time is a trivial matter? Let it be small in material importance, if you will; if those who are discharging the responsibilities of government in this country are not dealing' fairly or squarely or honestly or with a sufficient sense of their own responsibilities, is that the way to win the war? Is that the way to get that unanimous support that we must have in order to win? That is not my appreciation of the situation. We on this side of the House are elected to this position for the 
purpose of criticising the Government. That is our business, the country looks to us to see that the actions of the Government that are open to criticism shall be criticised on the floor of this House, and we as members of the Opposition will be doing far less than our duty if we fail to make that criticism when it is called for by the circumstances. The civilization of the world is to-day in danger. It is in danger because it is being attacked by the greatest organization of military efficiency that the world ever saw. How is civilization to be protected? Are we to meet efficiency with inefficiency? Unless we meet efficiency with efficiency, civilization goes down; and we cannot have efficiency unless in this country of free government we have fair but free criticism. We look across the water and we see a Government in power in Great Britain relieved during a period of a year or more from the ordinary vicissitudes of parliamentary debate, of opposition, of criticism. It is not for us iat this distance to criticise what has been done over there, but I think no one will come to the conclusion that the experiment has been to the advantage of the Empire or the Allies or the cause of civilization. I say it would he deplorable for the part Canada is to play in this war if we in this country took such a position as has been taken over there. I do not suggest for a moment that I am here to criticise what has been done there. They have their special responsibilities, and we on this side are not in a position to say how best they may meet them. But the fact remains that the dispensing with political criticism in the Parliament of Great Britain has not resulted in success for the Allies; and we cannot expect that if we are to take the position that my hon. friend (Mr. Michael Clark) has suggested here to-night, we would have any better results. We have a duty to perform, and we must perform that duty. Our appreciation of the' matter is this: in the discharge of our responsibilities as critics of the Government of the day we are doing our part to win the war just as much as the Government is doing in discharging its responsibilities. I hope my hon. friend will pardon me if I do not agree with him, but my view is that if we took the position that he has outlined for himself, we would certainly not be doing what we should do to secure success; and that way failure lies.' Efficiency is what we want. Efficiency is what we must have. We need efficiency to the last limit, and we can only get it in the

administration of the country's affairs, as in any other line of life, by the friction that comes of mind against mind by criticism and discussion of important matters.
The Premier in giving to the House a statement the other day of the number of men enlisted and their location, spoke of the casualties and of the wastage. He said that the casualties amounted to something over 20,000 and the wastage to about- the same or a little more. What is the exact meaning of wastage?


Robert Laird Borden: It would include all men who, for any reason whatever, are discharged from the service after having been once enlisted, for example, men who, upon a second examination, are not permitted to go to the front; men who are invalided from disease or any cause before going to the (front; .men dismissed from the service on account of misconduct or cri-me, deserters and minors.


Frank Oliver: 
Robert Laird Borden: 
Robert Laird Borden: The idea which the W7ar Office has in -min-d, -and which it supports by a memorandum, which was transmitted to us through the Colonial Office, is that giving the casualties with the numbers of the battalions gives certain information to the enemy which it is un- * desirable to afford.


Frank Oliver: ' Of course, I am not responsible for the conduct' of the British

armies in the field, but I am one of the people of Canada who have some interest in the armies in the field, and I am going to say upon my responsibility as a member of tne House of Commons that I do not think that the advantage compensates at all for the disadvantage. Of course, we have to accept the situation as it is.


Robert Laird Borden: We hardly felt like taking the responsibility of declining to accept a very strong representation, which, as we understood, had behind it the support of the Commander-in-Ohief and the General Staff at the front.


Frank Oliver: In expressing my opinion I am exercising a privilege, which, I appreciate, could not very well be exercised 'by the Government. Iln connection with the publication. of the casualty lists there is another feature to which I wish to draw attention.. The list, as published, is a number of days, say three, four, or five days, or a week be hind the actual facts. The other day I received a telegram from a man in Edmonton giving the name of his son, who had been wounded, and wishing me to get particulars as to his condition. He had been wounded, I think, on the 8th of April, and it was not until at least a week after that date that the young man's name appeared in the casualty list, indicating that the casualty list does not represent the losses of the immediately preceding day, or, indeed, of any particular day.


Robert Laird Borden: That is quite true, so far as the immediately preceding day is concerned. But my hon, friend must remember that the information has to be picked up, in the first place, under the fire of the German batteries at the front, amid all the confusion and strain which are incessant under the conditions which prevail at the front. The identification number of the man must be obtained; sometimes he may have lost his life in a situation which renders it impossible to get near him at the moment. Delays are absolutely inevitable. After that has been done the information has to be transmitted to London, and then across the Atlantic. The code messages must be deciphered; the man's number must be compared with the records we have here, and a telegram must be sent to his immediate relatives. It must also be ascertained that the telegram has been delivered, and then, and not until then, 
can the information be made public in the press.


Frank Oliver: 
Robert Laird Borden: I can .conceive that the military authorities at the front might not regard it as a prudent course to indicate the precise number of casualties that had occurred in the Canadian forces on a particular day. I can easily conceive that they might take that in view. However, that may be, I do not think they ask us to pursue a different course from that pursued on the other side of the Atlantic. So far as I know, the method of making public the casualties is precisely the same there as here.


Frank Oliver: I am going to take the liberty at this- time, and on this occasion, to express the view of the Canadian people who are interested-I am taking the liberty of saying that it is the view of the Canadian people. The Canadian people are interested in these casualties more than anybody else, and I claim that they are entitled to be considered in regard to the matter of their publication. The impression on my mind is that these casualties are fed out, so to speak, judiciously -in the opinion of those in authority-with the view fhat they shall not alarm the public by giving too large numbers on any particular occasion. That is to say, those who at the moment have

authority in these matters do not, in their wisdom, think that they can trust the public with a knowledge of their losses from day to day. They are afraid to trust the public. They treat the people who are offering their fathers and brothers and sons as a sacrifice in the Empire's cause as if they were not to be trusted. They do not deal with them honestly and fairly and above board. They do not say: yes, on a certain day such and such a thing occurred, and such and such casualties were suffered. They say: we are in control; we are afraid to let you know, and we will only give out just as many casualties as we think ought to appear on a particular day. I am speaking on my responsibility as a member. I am not criticising this Government. But I say that that is not fair; it is not right, it is not good business. It is not the way to win the war for the Government, or for those who are in control of military affairs, to maintain an attituue of distrust towards tiie people upon whom they must aDSolutely depend, and who must absolutely trust them for success. If they do not trust the people, the people cannot trust them. If they do not trust the people to the extent of telling the truth in regard to that matter, which is so close to their hearts, the people cannot trust them in their administration of affairs. I go further, and say that, in my humble judgment, the dissemination of information by the military authorities has been used very much more to deceive and mislead the people of their own country, and to cover up their own incompetence, than to mislead the enemy.


Robert Laird Borden: Is my hon.
friend referring to the action of the department here?


Frank Oliver: No, I do not know whether it is the department here or the department there. Whoever it is, they are not treating the people who are making the sacrifices with fair consideration; they are not giving them their confidence, and it is not being done for the good of the Empire; because everything that detracts from the confidence of the people in the conduct of military affairs certainly does not tend towards the people giving their support. There are many other matters that I wish to deal with, but as I understand the Prime Minister wishes to make a reply to what has been said, I will postpone what I have to say further to some other occasion.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I wish to congratulate my right hon. friend the Prime Minister upon having appointed officially General Lessard. The people of Quebec are very jealous of their heroes, and they are in that connection very conservative in a way. They are proud of them, whether in politics, in religion, in literature, in the arts or in military matters. General Lessard is one of them. Will my right hon. friend, who is a friend of the province of Quebec, listen to my candid advice? General Lessard has gone to the front to inspect officially troops, and no better man could have been selected; in fact, it was a surprise, and indeed a matter of regret, that his services should have been ignored since the beginning of the war. But, I did not rise to criticise. When his task on the other side is completed, I would ask my right hon. friend to give us back General Lessard in the province of Quebec, and I make bold to say that under General Lessard, Quebec will raise more battalions, because the province has confidence in his military efficiency, in his capacity, in his judgment. Fathers and mothers will be quite ready to confide their sons to the leadership of such a distinguished military officer.
I say this because there has been criticism in the press of the various provinces of Canada as regards recruiting in Quebec. I sincerely regret that there is not a happier feeling existing between the French-speaking population and the English-speaking population in Canada; I mean in the back concessions of the country. We have our own extremists, and my Englishspeaking friends have their own extremists. I am always reminded of the opening sentence in Lord Durham's report, which xuns as follows: "I came to Canada in the expectation of finding one country and one people; I found two countries and two peoples." Since the beginning of the war there has been, generally speaking, bad feeling as regards the attitude of the province of Quebec, and if I speak of that particular subject this evening it is because I think it is relevant to the issue, and because I wish to, if possible, clear the sky.
It has 'been stated that the French-Cana-dians were not enlisting as they should. Let me make on this subject a frank statement to the committee. There are surely people with heads on their shoulders who read the daily papers. Every morning since the famous battles of Langemarck and St. Julien, the roll of honour is published in

those daily papers, and I can find in it the names of the young English-speaking Canadians and of the young French-speaking Canadians who enlisted with the first contingent. In this morning's Le Canada among those in the casualty list I read the names of Paul Adrien Lambert, Lachine; Charles Richard, Montreal; Louis Savard, Quebec; Edouard Goulet, Trois-Rivieres; Joseph Mongeau, Sorel; Hormisdas Berthiaume, St. Eugene; Romulus Bourget, Montreal. If any one takes the trouble to scrutinize the list every day he will find that there is quite a galaxy of young men from my own province who on the battlefield are doing their duty to their country, to their King and to the Empire. Let me pay my respects to the British-born in Canada. They have done wonderfully well. They responded to the call as true Britons shoulu respond where-ever they may live. If I speak of the British-born in this way it is because in connection with the figures I intend to give the committee, I must make a distinction between the British-bosn, the Anglo-Canadians and the Franco-Canadians, in order to be fair and just to the people of my own native province who ,are ibeing accused in some parts of Canada of shirking their duty in this war. If my right hon. friend will give us General Lessard he will find that the habitants of Quebec will respond cheerfully. I have already invited my right hon. friend to visit the province of Quebec, but he could not accept the invitation on account of his sessional duties, but if my right hon. friend, who commands the respect of my province, as he commands the respect of the country, will come to Quebec with my right hon, friend who leads the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), and with some of his ministers, we on this side of the House will join with him and we will make an appeal and thus swell the number of the existing French-Canadian battalions.
Coming back to the British-born: When the first contingent left Quebec, the figures were as follows: There are 33,000 soldiers gathered at Valcartier, and I say in passing that all credit is due the Government and the Department of Militia and Defence for the mustering of our yeomanry within such a short interval. Of the 33,000 soldiers who left Valcartier with the first contingent,
26,000	were British born.


Robert Laird Borden: Where does my hon. friend get his figures?


Rodolphe Lemieux: From Senators Mason's statement in the Senate the other day. Of

that 33,000,	2,500 were French-Canadians
who had responded to the call of duty and
4.500	Anglo-Canadians. I may be told that
2.500	is not a large number, but in speaking of recruiting in the province of Quebec, we must bear in mind certain facts, and I am glad that I am addressing myself this evening to leaders of the people from all provinces in Canada. First of all, Quebec is a self-sustaining province; she is the only province of the Dominion which does not receive any influx of immigration from abroad. Quebec receives no immigration from the British Isles, no immigration from the United States, no immigration from France, and practically no immigration from Belgium.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Where do all the Jews
and foreigners in the city of Montreal come from?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was speaking of the
French-Canadians

not that I despise the Jews and foreigners in Montreal; for after a while they cease to be foreigners, and become naturalized and just as good Canadians as my hon. friend and myself. I am not speaking of what we call the foreign element, but of the native born French-Canadians. The increase in population of French Quebec, if my hon. friend prefers that description, is due solely to her birthrate, and we are rather proud of that. It is not so with the western provinces, or the great province of Ontario, to which flock nearly all British immigrants who come to Canada, In Ontario the trend is from the farms to the city: in Quebec, as all those who know the province will realize, the trend is in the opposite direction.
I hate to prove anything lby the law of averages, but what I am stating now I state in good faith, and in order to dispel any prejudices that may exist in the minds of the people. I think I shall be able to prove to the satisfaction o'f the committee and of the country at large that Quebec is not below her proper proportion of recruits at the present time. Do no't forget, that Quebec is above all things a rural province. We are being urged to increase production. Not later than two days ago I received a voluminous pamphlet UTging the people of Canada to go in for more production, and still more production; and only this afternoon we were told by the Prime Minister that production was an imperative, yes, even an Imperial duty. If he did not use that expression, .that is what I gathered from his remarks. The farming population in Quebec is primarily

needed on tlhe farms. Bear in mind the appeal that is now made from the platform and in the press, in the province of Ontario and other provinces, for more farm hands. In the province of Quebec, with the exception of the city of Montreal, the city of Quebec, the city of Sherbrooke, and to a certain extent, tlhe city of Three Rivers, our population is entirely rural.
What has the province of Quebec done in the way of recruiting since the beginning of the war? Let us face the facts without any prejudice, bearing in mind the situation as I have described it in good faith. I have stated that with the first contingent there were in round numbers
2,500	Freneh-iCanadians, and my right hon. friend will, I am sure, agree with what I aim now going to say. In many battalions, in the Maritime Provinces for instance, and in Northern Ontario, and the western provinces, there was quite a large sprinkling of FrencluCanadian volunteers. The other day Mr. M>ageau, tlhe local member for Sturgeon Falls, stated through the - press, that in a battalion organized in Northern Ontario at least 40 per cent were French-Canadian volunteers; and those who are familiar with conditions in my province and the facility with which the French-Canadian. absorbs other races, know that in many other regiments there are any number of Ross's, Scotts, Warrens, Camerons, Campbells, who would be very surprised if you addressed them in English, because their language is French. So that, in addition to the 2,500 French-tCanadians in the first contingent, at least 1,000 were sprinkled through the , various English speaking regiment's of Northern Ontario, amid eastern and western Canada. Since a year and a half ago we have had a recruiting! movement amongst the yeomanry of the province of Quebec, in which our public men are taking an interest. We have requested the Militia Department to favour the formation of French-Canadian units. I am glad to say the Militia Department gave a favourable answer to our request. I quite understand that there should be only one badge of nationality in this country-Canadian nationality. But look at what takes place in the Old Country. You have there the Irish Fusiliers, the Welsh Fusiliers, the gallant Scotch Grenadiers, and the English crack regiments. You cannot do away with these racial characteristics and affinities; they are deep-rooted, they are part of the soul of men of any
nationality. At the beginning of the war I urged very strongly upon the Minister of Militia that not only should we have French-Canadian units commanded by French-Canadian officers, but that the various corps should also have their own national uniforms. That, I confess, was a hobby of mine, and, perhaps, I was wrong. I advocated it to promote the cause of recruiting. We have at the present time in Quebec thirteen French-Canadian units or battalions. Some of them are at the front, others are in course of formation, and others are ready to start. I have said that
3,500	have already gone, and that is a modest figure. Then we have these other thirteen units of 1,100 per unit.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: How many are filled up?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Nearly half of them are [DOT] filled up.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: How are the others?


Rodolphe Lemieux: They are doing pretty well. I will give an instance. Yesterday I met Colonel de Salaberry. I may say, en passant, that I was instrumental in having Colonel de Salaberry brought from the front, where he had served with distinction. I .appealed to the Minister of Militia, and said: Here is Colonel de Sala/berry, the grandson of the hero of Chateauguay. He has served well and faithfully. Now we want a good name, we want a great name to induce our young men to follow the colours. The minister brought back Colonel de Salaberry, whom yesterday I met at church. Colonel de Salaberry has not been 'here more than four weeks, and he has already recruited 300 men. Three months ago. as the Prime Minister will remember, I asked him to give me a letter, which letter was read in Montreal at a public meeting to promote recruiting for the Desrosiers-Asselin regiment. Colonel Derosiers had been at the front. He was called back and started to form a regiment with Major As-selin. They had not one recruit three months ago, and to-day, I am pleased to inform the committee and the country, the Desrosiers-Asselin regiment is almost completed. Three months of reoruiting, three months of organization and work, has brought the battalion together. I think that within two months, when perfectly drilled and trained, the men will be anxious and eager to leave for the front. Now, let me give a list of our thirteen French Canadian units:

1.	22nd Battalion, under Colonel Gaudet, at the front.
2.	41st Battalion, Lieut.-Colonel Archam-bault, at the front.
3.	57th Battalion,Colonel Paquet.
4.	69th Battalion, Lieut.-Colonel Dan-sereau. Just left for the front.
5.	150th	Battalion,	Lieut.-Col.	Barre.6.	163rd	Battalion,	Lieut.-Col.	Desrosiers.7.	165th	Battalion,	Lieut.-Col.	Daigle.8.	167th	Battalion,	Colonel Readman-an
English name, mark well, but a French-Canadian.
9.	178th Battalion, Colonel Girouard.
10.	189th Battalion, Colonel Piuze.
11.	206th Battalion, Colonel Pagnuelo.
12.	230th Battalion, Colonel De Salaberry.
13.	233rd. Battalion, Colonel LepTohon.
Then there is the stationary hospital
under Lieut.-Col. Mignault, to which my hon. friend (Sir Robert Borden) alluded to in very kind words this afternoon. Let me say, in passing, that speaking as one who has French blood in his veins, I thank the Prime Minister and the Canadian iGovem-ment for the noble gift they made the old Mother Country, in providing a Canadian hospital for those wounded in France. There is also the stationary hospital under Colonel Casgrain, and the one that left a few days ago under Colonel Beauchamp. There is also a corps of engineers which left several months ago under Major Janin. Unfortunately Major Janin perished with the Arabic.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is that the whole list?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have given the whole thirteen battalions.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I thought the hon. gentleman said thirty.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Assuming 3,500-a very low figure-as the number of those who went with the first contingent, then add these thirteen regiments-


An hon. MEMBER:: Battalions.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I should have said
battalions. I am not a military man, although I have at the front a nephew who married a nice English-speaking girl from Ontario, and to whom I cabled " Good for you, you have settled the bi-lingual question." These thirteen battalions will number at least 14,000 men which, added to the number of those with the first contingent will make 17,500. I do not include the hospitals and the others I have already mentioned. But I say this to the Tight hon. Prime Minister and to my Englishspeaking friends on both sides of the

House: give us General Lessard and let the Prime Minister and his ministers and the public men on this side of the House make a proper appeal to the province of Quebec,det the press of Canada be fair and generous, and I make bold to say that the old province of Quebec will respond nobly to the call of duty, King and flag.
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM: As we are all anxious that these resolutions should be reported to-night I trust the committee will bear with me for a few minutes. It is possible that I may not be here when the matter comes up in committee in the form of a Bill, and I would like to say a few words nown I do not think it requires any effort on my part, speaking in the absence of the leader of the Opposition, to reassure the Government, if that be necessary, that they have the hearty co-operation of every member in this House, no matter on what side he sits, in everything that is necessary to be done until victory finally comes to the cause which W'e all think is the noblest cause for which man ever contended. As to criticism, I think the Prime Minister invited criticism. Having been a member of a Government myself, let me quietly tell the members of the House who have not had that trouble on their hands, that although they may not think it, Governments like criticism. It is not an admission of ^weakness on the part of a Government to invite criticism. The Government would not dislike it if some of their own friends would criticise occasonally, and in this I sipeak from experience. 'Criticism enables a Government to stand off people of both political parties who ought to be stood off. Some criticisms may seem in Parliament to be of small importance, but nothing that tends to improve conditions can be called a small matter. I have taken considerable part in recruiting in my own weak way, and those things that we in Parliament regard as small are really the things that affect recruiting in the different localities. What is not a large matter to us sitting here to-night is mountain high in some localities when you appeal to the people on recruiting, or on behalf of patriotic founds. We must not however, lose sight of the magnitude of the war or forget the sense of proportions. Towering above all these things is the one great object we have in view, which is that Canada shall do her part, as she has been and is doing and will continue to do, until victory comes to the Empire. That is what we must keep in

view, and if I had time I would elaborate it, and say that even if we were not part of the British Empire, I would not feel that I was a good Canadian citizen doing my duty to my country, if I did not take some part in this fight for the betterment of world conditions.
The hon. member for Rouville has spoken of our fellow-citizen in the province of Quebec. Remember, we have many French Canadians in Ontario and throughout the West. I do not like to discuss these things, because we are Canadians, one and all, and in each doing his own duty, we will find that we have enough to do. Let us do our best in our own locality in the sphere in which we exert influence, and the results gained cannot but be good. If it be true that the recruiting in Quebec has not been what some people say it ought to have been, the men who have gone must have been of the real kind of stuff and worthy of the front ranks of any fight, because when we read the casualty lists we find French Canadian names dotted all through them. I say again that the men who have gone from the province of Quebec have not only brought lustre to their own province and to the land of their forefathers, but have brought credit and renown to the Dominion of Canada and to the British Empire as a whole. It would not be out of place for me to say as one not of French Canadian but of Irish descent, a word about the situation, as it may affect Canada, that has arisen in the land from which my forefathers came. In the present crisis John Redmond has proved himself a patriot of the right sort, a man who has won for himself greater distinction, if that be possible, than heretofore he enjoyed; a man who will have a bright page in the history of this Empire when it comes to be written in future years. He said recently, in condemning the outbreak in Dublin, that these foolish men were encouraged not only by Germans and German sympathizers, but by some misguided individuals on this continent. I think it will not be out of place for me to say, being of Irish descent, that there must be no mistake in the old land about the fact that in this case America does not include Canada. I know that I am justified in saying that from one end of Canada to the other the men who came from Ireland or whose fathers or grandfathers came from Ireland are true and loyal to the British flag. Ho people in the British Empire will condemn more strongly the outrages of misguided men in the city of Dublin, than will the Irishmen who have found a home in Canada.
I want to say this on behalf of the Militia Department. I myself have annoyed them terribly, although /I think the 'Government will not say that I have criticised their conduct unduly in the House. It is better for the Government, it is better for the Prime Minister that criticism should come, if it is of the right kind, and the Prime Minister was wise in inviting criticism. We are passing to-night a resolution for the raising of $250,000,000. Who will say that we have engaged in undue criticism if in one day we pass in this House a resolution giving the Government a credit for that enormous sum. There is no desire on t)he ipart of any person but to get what is best out of the money we are expending, so that satisfactory results may come from its expenditure. I say that I have annoyed the Militia Department incessantly about things that they may have thought small. I am afraid, with all due deference to some of the speakers to-night, that I have annoyed the Department with things as small as some people think the criticism was to-day. But what may seem small here is big in some localities. I sent my complaints to the Militia Department, whether the information I received was good, bad or indifferent. Being personally acquainted with the deputy minister, I have loaded him with a great deal of material that he may have thought useless and cumbersome, but I have always received most courteous treatment. When representatives of the people in Parliament take some pains in these matters, the people appreciate that the Government and its supporters and the .members of the Opposition are here to do the very best they can undeT these very serious conditions which confront us. Members sitting to our right and left, in front of us and behind us, are startled every time the telephone rings, jump every time a telegram is handed to them, are almost afraid to see an official of the Militia Department coming toward them, lest he have some bad news.
The situation has come home to us; members representing constituencies in this House have those dearest to them in the trenches, their lives hanging in the balance. Some have paid the highest tribute they could to their love of country, and it is with deep regret we have seen that a minister of the Crown has to mourn the loss 'of a dear son. It is a serious time, a serious situation. Whatever differences we

may have had, have sunk into- insignificance in the one great task we have in hand. I have, in going through the country endeavouring to do something in the way of assisting in recruiting, been asked a question that has been asked here to-day, and in a measure I answered it myself by my experience. I have been- asked: Why should, men without experience be given commissions as officers. There are in localities in Canada men who are not military men, men who have had no military training and who, on the field might be failures; but as men holding the respect of the communities in which they live and having the power of organization and the ability to attract men to them, they make better recruiting officers than any general you could send into a community. Many of these officers, I imagine, will never go the .front; I do not think they would be useful there, nor could they be trained in time to take charge of actual operations in the field. But until such time as the battalions are ready to be taken charge of for fighting purposes, these other men without training, are the very best men that can be secured to rally the recruits. I have several instances in my mind. In the city of Toronto, there is what they call the Sportsmen's Battalion, the officers of which have never had any military training, but they recruited that battalion with wonderful rapidity. That has occurred in several places*, and I have entirely altered my mind as to the necessity of a man having military training to get together a battalion, because many officers who have never had military training have shown themselves best able to get together the men, who can then be trained by experienced military officers.
This resolution is for a large amount of money, and while it is a sad duty to vote it, still that sadness must be tempered by the consideration that we are glad in Canada that we are able to vote it, and we are doubly glad that there is no dissenting voice to our voting it from one end of the country to the other. It is divided into several parts and "the defence and security of Canada," is the first. We have all read in the newspapers lately items which give a certain serious'aspect to that section. We have read recently of a plot unearthed in the city of New York for the destruction of the Welland canal and for other depredations in Canada. Money is
12 midnight, necessary for the defence of Canada in Canada. Even those, of whom there are very few, who still

insist that they should not go outside of Canada to serve the country, might possibly be put to work to do all this Canadian duty. We might take them on their own ground and put them to work defending Canada under this section.


Mr. EDWARDS:: They would not do
much good.


George Perry Graham: I should not like to say that.	.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: You have to furnish the foe first.


George Perry Graham: Let not my hon. friend be so sure. As I was remarking, a plot was exposed in the city of New York, which if carried out, would have done an immense amount of damage not only to Canada but to the Empire. Perhaps the hon. member has read also a confession by a man in New York who said there was another plot to gather together a certain number of men near the Canadian border and rush them across. They could not have accomplished anything; they could have been taken care of if they had come across the line, and I have very grave doubts if they would have been allowed to cross. It is necessary that certain money should be devoted actually tc the defence of Canada in Canada, and I was making the suggestion that if it be necessary, the very few men in certain parts of Canada who insist that they are ready to fight but would not go outside of Canada to fight, should be utilized for that service.


William Cameron Edwards: With Choquette for
leader.


George Perry Graham: This resolution also provides " for the conduct of naval or military operations in and beyond Canada," which includes, of course, all the operations in which we are engaged, and which are of mighty import. The vote also provides for: " Promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risks or otherwise." This is not the most unimportant section of the resolution because if the trade or the industry of Canada in its various parts were to fall down, we might become a burden to the Motherland and the Allies, instead of an aid to them because, on the continuance of our trade and industry, as far as we possibly can continue it, rests our financial progress, and without that financial stability we might be a burden instead of an aid. Money expended along those lines is second in importance only to the money spent in buy-

ing munitions and paying for the men at the front. The resolution also provides money for:	" The carrying out of any
measures deemed necessary or advisable by the Governor in Council in consequence of the existence of a state of war." This section is one of some considerable importance. Then the resolution says:
Payments made for ttoe said purposes during the fiscal years ending respectively the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen and the thirty-first of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, in excess of the amounts authorized by the War Appropriation Act, 1914, and the War Appropriation Act, 1915.
At the beginning, of course, no person had any idea that the war was going to be of such magnitude or that the expenditure was going to be of such huge proportions, but now, we are prepared to accept almost anything. This clause must mean that the Government lias found itself obliged to expend a good deal of money, by Governor General's warrant I presume, in excess of the .amount provided in 1914-1915.


Robert Laird Borden: There have been no Governor General's warrants.


George Perry Graham: The money was expended in excess of the vote.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes. At least
liabilities have been incurred. I think they came to about $10,000,000 more than the amount provided in 1914-15 and to about $50,000,000 more than the amount provided in 1915 and 1916, the reason in the latter case being, of course, that the establishment was increased very much beyond the number estimated for when we voted the $100,000,000 last year.


George Perry Graham: I was not finding fault
with the money being expended; I was referring to the method in which I supposed it had been expended, and I was going to say that I hope that in the future- and I hope that the future will be very much restricted-the vote we are making now will be fully ample to meet the requirements without being over-expended. Of course if the necessity arises, Parliament will uphold the Government in any expenditure necessary, but it will be wise to make the amount as large as we think will be needed so that the Government may not be put in the position of over-expending the appropriation. These are things that struck me as I was reading the resolution. No matter what we may think, this is a very important resolution. It involves an enor-ous amount of money, and while we are
anxious to put it through and expect to put it through in a very little while, it is wise that we should understand it and understand what is expected to be done, always keeping in mind that it is efficiency we are after and not carping criticism. I might ask the Prime Minister whether, when the Bill is in committee, he will be able to give us information as to the probable expenditures under the various head? in the resolution, or whether the Bill founded on the resolution will be subdivided in that way. I am not asking for that information to-night, because it would involve too much detail, but when the committee comes- to deal with (he Bill founded on this resolution I presume that questions will be asked, and the Government shomd be in -a position to give us an idea of vs hat is likely to be the subdivision or expenditures for the coming year.
Let me say, in conclusion, that no matter what party they may belong to

I do not care from what country their fathers or grandfathers came, or how long they have been here; no matter what the differences of opinion may be, or what criticism may be made of what the Government has done, or has not done, let all the people of this country understand; let the people of the Empire fully understand, as they do; let the Allies understand, and, above all, let our enemies understand that the Canadian people are as one behind the Government until this war is won and victory crowns the cause to which we are all so devotedly attached.


Robert Laird Borden: I appreciate very much what has been said by my hon. friend who has just addressed the committee, and who has given evidence that he understands the very great responsibilities which have devolved upon the Government in the conduct of this war. Responsibilities have come upon us, especially during the past year, with the vastly increased establishment of the military forces, which no one of us could have anticipated in August, 1914. Not only has the magnitude of the war proved greater than we supposed at that time, but its probable duration will also be much longer than any of us then imagined. I am also- very grateful to the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) for his appreciation of those responsibilities, and for his tribute to the purpose of the Government in what it has done towards making our part in this war effective. Probably no one who has not been brought

closely in touch -with those responsibilities can adequately appreciate what they have been. Therefore, a word from any hon. member of this House testifying to his understanding of what the burdens of Government have been during the past eighteen or twenty months is- very acceptable to those who have had to bear the weight of those responsibilities.
While I do not in the least suggest that the discussion has been too long-I would not have been surprised if it had lasted more than one day upon the resolution	itself-nevertheless, some of the
matters which have been dealt with were of a rather trivial nature, as has been observed, although they may loom very large, as the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) has said, in the immediate communities which they concern. So far as the responsibilities of the Government are concerned, I hope it will be understood, not only by the members of this House, but by the country, that the various transactions and affairs carried on through an enormous territory in this country are in many cases absolutely beyond the direct control of any member of Gio Government, or, for- that matter, of any departmental officer. Naturally such traos-actions cannot be dealt with by a wholly centralized administration in a country which extends nearly 4,000 miles from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and which is composed of a great many scattered communities.
In the first instance, I should like to refer to the question of patronage, whicn has been discussed by a good many hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. Let me affirm to the members of this committee, and to the country, that, so far as I am concerned, and so far as the Minister of Militia is concerned-he has had mostly to do with them-there has been absolutely no desire or intention on the part of the Government to. deal with these matters from any party political standpoint. In the early months of the war the question of contracts was brought to my attention by an hon. gentleman who owns allegiance to the party which is represented on the other side of the House, and I told him at that time that it was not seemly or desirable, whatever the practice might be in ordinary conditions, that such matters should be dealt with from a party political standpoint. I am in a position also to affirm, on behalf of the Minister of Militia, that that was precisely his own view. Indeed, on many occasions, on countless occasions, I

might say, during the past 18 or 20 months the reproach has been made to me personally, and it has been made with regard to the Minister of Militia, that party considerations had been absolutely put aside, and that the conduct of this war by the Government had been of such a character as to discourage some members of the Conservative party. These reproaches have even been carried to the extent of suggesting that military officers who had been appointed by the Minister of Militia and Defence were using the positions, which he had entrusted to them, for the purpose of injuring or discrediting the Conservative party. I have always said in reply to such representations that these officers had been selected for the reason that they were efficient, and because the Minister of Militia and Defence believed them to be the best men for the particular positions entrusted to them, and that I was not disposed, nor was the Minister of Militia disposed, to attach importance to representations of that kind. It is possible that in a number of localities persons affiliated with the Conservative party may have endeavoured to make use of patronage in regard to some of the matters complained of, but, so fab as any information which has come to me is concerned. I believe that the hon. gentlemen who have put forward those views in this comjnittee have been rather misled in the instances referred to, or that the cases have been very much exaggerated.
My hon. friend from Regina (Mr. Martin) referred to recruiting in small communities, and he doubted the expediency or value of that system which has been pursued during the past winter by the Minister of Militia and Defence. The minister discussed with me and with his other colleagues the method before it was put into operation, and it was his idea that keeping men a certain number of months in the community in which they were recruited would accomplish two purposes. In the first place, they would be under the eye of their immediate relatives, under the eye of the mothers and the fathers of the boys during the early months of their training. Their parents and immediate relatives would 'know the associations into which they were brought and would probably have greater confidence in sending them forward to camps at a later date if the early preliminary training took place in the communities where these young men lived. In the second place, he had in mind,

whether rightly or wrongly, that such training for a few months would be equally as valuable as it would have been if the method suggested by the hon. member for Regina had been pursued. As an illustration of that, may I point out to my hon. frind from Regina-whose remarks were put forward in a very reasonable way, and whose criticism, if it can be called criticism, was of a character that the Government will always welcome-that I see every day from my office window in the eastern block, men being trained upon the lawn of Parliament Hill and I see them being trained in squads of about eight. I have seen that going on day after day and for a time I wondered why it was so done. But I think I appreciate the reason for it, namely, that the first training which the soldier must receive is what is called squad drill and that can go on equally well in the community where a few men are recruited as in larger camps.
With regard to the criticism that has been made of the medical inspection, I have sought information from the Deputy Minister of Militia and Defence and he has informed me that our inspection in Canada is equally as strict as that in the United Kingdom. It may be that too much zeal on the part of recruiting officers has led to some influence being brought to bear on the medical men who examine these recruits; I will neither affirm nor deny that because I do not know. I understand, however, from the deputy minister that after these men are sent to camp, as they all will be sent to camp, a further medical examination takes place, and then very possibly some of the men who have been accepted by the local medical officers may be weeded out. It would be difficult to devise a method by which incidents of that kind would be entirely avoided. We have to select the medical men in different parts of the country. There has been some suggestion that they are selected on account of their political - affiliations. I venture to 'think that that cannot possibly be correct and I will give an illustration in my own constituency. In many cases, as I know, in Kova Scotia men are selected not by the Department of Militia and Defence but by the local recruiting associations. There was a gentleman in my own constituency, a man honoured by those who are hie friends politically and by those who are opposed to him, a man who has been in practice
for forty years or 'more in the locality in which he resides. There is also in the same locality a young man, a member of an old and well known family in that particular district, who lhas been in practice only two or three years, whose family has been recognized as the champions and leaders of Liberalism in that district for a great many years in the past. When it became necessary during the past year to select a medical officer for the examination of recruits in that district, the man selected was not the physician who had been practicing for forty years and who was honoured and respected by all and who happened to 'be a Conservative, but. the young man of two, three, or four years' standing who happened to belong to about the strongest Liberal family in the district. I should think that 'an illustration of that kind would convince hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House that the selection of medical officers has not been conducted in so far as the Militia Department is concerned, with any regard for political affiliations.
Then the statement has been made, that in some cases .a sufficient sense of responsibility has not impressed itself upon the officers commanding regiments or engaged in recruiting regiments. My hon. friend from Regina gave a reference to the case of Private Robert Darragh whose family, most unfortunately, were not made acquainted with news of his illness. I shall have that matter inquired into. As ,far as commanding officers of regiments are concerned, when well founded representations are made to the department that any officer is not discharging his duties with competence an inquiry is made by the Adjutant General. An hon. member on the other side .of the House within the past week wrote me a letter representing that a certain commanding officer was not filling the bill, ii I may use that expression, and that the particular regiment which he was recruiting would not be effectively organized or .properly trained unless some change were made. The course which I took is the one which, I believe, has been taken in all such cases by the department. The matter was referred to the Adjutant General to whose branch such matters naturally appertain, and he was instructed to send a special officer for the purpose of inquiring into the organization and probable efficiency of that battalion if it should continue under the command of that officer. The complexity of these matters that daily

present themselves to the officers of the Militia Department, and to the minister whoever he may be who is entrusted for the time being with the administration of the department, is very great indeed and probably beyond the conception of those who have not been brought personally and closely in touch with it.
My hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) referred to some matters. I was rather surprised to. hear him express the view that I had ibeem taking undue credit to the Government, or to the department, with respect to what has been accomplished in this country. It has been my duty on a great many public occasions


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I was not speaking
of the personal attitude of my right hon. friend because I did not accuse him of having made that statement, but I was referring generally to the claim that was made to the effect that the way we had responded to the demands of the war was a matter of wonder. I said that it was not a matter of wonder.


Robert Laird Borden: That is another matter and I will come to it in a moment. It has been my duty on many different-occasions to point out, as I am glad to do now, that without the splendid spirit of the Canadian people, and the equally splendid support that they gave to the Government, it would not have been possible for any Administration to accomplish all that has been done in the past twenty months. Let there be absolutely no doubt about that. My observations were made rather for the purpose of impressing on the members of the committee, and upon the people of the copntry, the very great magnitude of the task that had been undertaken with the support of the Canadian people, and to express the belief that that task had been discharged in a manner fairly creditable to this Dominion and to its people. In regard to the number of men who have been enlisted, my observation was to the effect that not one of us would probably have believed in August, 1914, that within eighteen or twenty months 310,000 or 320,000 men would have rallied to the colours of this country, or that there would have been occasion for them to do so. It is all very well for us to-day, with all this accomplished by the Canadian people, to say we had no doubt upon the subject; but I venture to think that if we had looked forward in August, 1914, to the enlistment of 310,000 or 380,000 Canadians within the period that has intervened, we could hardly have believed that

it would have been accomplished with the expedition and efficiency which' we have witnessed.
My hon. friend also alluded to a supposed lack of enthusiasm because the militia units did not go forward as such. I have not found any lack of enthusiasm by reason of that or by reason of anything else. The mere fact that more than 102,000 men have rallied to the colours in the first three and a half months of this year indicates that there is no lack of enthusiasm in any part of this country; and as far as militia units -are concerned, there has been no reason why any militia regiment should not organize a regiment for overseas service. That has been done in several cases. It has been done, I am informed, by the 89th Rimouski Regiment and by the 65th Regiment of Montreal. The Grenadier Guards of Montreal, the 5th Royal Highlanders, the Victoria Rifles, the 48th Highlanders, the Mississagua Horse, the Queen's Own, the 10th Royal Grenadiers, the 90th Battalion of Winnipeg, the 55th Irish Rangers and other militia regiments have raised or are raising overseas' battalions with the parent regiment.
My hon. friend from Pictou also alludes to the work of a gentlemen who bears my own name, Colonel Borden, and I entirely agree in the appreciation that he has expressed of Col. Borden's work. He seemed to have some apprehension about the Highland Brigade. Let me tell him that those apprehensions are entirely groundless. The only question about the Highland Brigade and the 85th Regiment is this:	The 85th
Regiment was organized by Col. Borden, and is now fairly well trained and practically ready to go to the front. The only question to be determined is whether, inasmuch as the 85th Regiment under the command of Colonel Borden was really ready to go to the front and had been organized for - a considerable time, and having regard to the further fact that if the regiment was retained in Nova Scotia it would be very useful, not so much in the organization, but in the training of three other regiments which had been recruited there-the question is whether, having regard to these considerations, it would be better in the public interests for the 85th Regiment to go immediately to the front, oi to remain in Nova Scotia, going to Aider-shot or some other central point, and assist in training the new regiments which had really been raised through the efforts of Col. Borden in co-relation with the 85th, which he commands. The Chief of the

General Staff has been consulted about that, and I understand that Col. Borden himself has been sent for, and his opinion will be considered before any decision is arrived at.
My hon. friend referred to recruiting officers, and their inability to pay for a band. I really do not know anything about details of that kind. I do not suppose it would be proper to pay for a band unless there was some authorization for it from the Department of Militia and Defence. Recruiting has been carried on in many parts of the country by voluntary effort, and the Government is most profoundly grateful, and I think the people also ought to be profoundly grateful, to the men who, night and day, have been devoting their energies to this good work. It has been done to a very great extent in a voluntary way, and possibly it may have occurred that some of these voluntary associations have not been able to give an undertaking that the Department of Militia and Defence would pay certain expenses. All that, however, simply shows due regard for the public interests, to the end that public money shall not be expended except under adequate sanction
The hon. member for Pictou speaks of cold water being thrown on idealism by reason of the improper distribution of contracts for supplies. I do nut quite agree that the idealism of the people of this country is influenced by considerations of that kind. He speaks of some gentleman in Cape Breton having undertaken to bring the affairs of the Hospital Commission into a question of patronage.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No. The question was whether or not the Government was going to take a certain hospital, in which event he was going to prepare a list of employees whom he would recommend.


Robert Laird Borden: All these hospitals are regulated by a commission of gentlemen who have been appointed without regard to their political affiliations, and if there is any gentleman in Cape Breton or elsewhere who imagines that the Hospitals Commission is administering its affairs with a view to political patronage, all I can say is that that gentleman will find himself very thoroughly mistaken in the end.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am not complaining about the Hospitals Commission.


Robert Laird Borden: With regard to the obtaining of commissions through favoritism, my experience of these matters has been that the Minister of Militia and Defence has sought to get efficiency, and has been guided by that consideration alone.
One- hon. gentleman opposite, I am not quite sure who it was, indicated that the Government might be subject to criticism whichever course was pursued. For example, if a Conservative was appointed to a particular commission, the allegation would be made that it was done through favouritism, and if a Liberal had been selected for the command, the allegation would be put forward that the commission was offered for the purpose of getting the man out of the way, and clearing the political atmosphere.
With regard to machine guns, about which my hon. friend from Pictou has made some inquiry, I do not understand that there was such an appeal made by the Government as he suggests. Let me state what the situation was. The Government of the province of Ontario, for example desired to make some contribution to the war through the Federal Government. They suggested and desired machine guns, and we accepted their proposal in the same spirit in which it was put forward. The /matter was fully explained to the public in a letter which I wrote to the Government of Ontario, and which I believe was made public by that Government at the last session of the legislature. A gentleman, a splendid patriotic citizen of this country, who had lost a very near relative in this war, came to the Government nearly a year ago and desired to make a contribution of $100,000 as a memorial, so to speak, of the sacrifice which his brother had made in giving up his life in this war. He was especially desirous that that sum should be utilized by this Government in the purchase of machine guns, and if the regulations of the War .Office would permit it, that those guns might be added to the ordinary establishment of regiments in the British service for our Canadian forces when they went to the front.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Was that Mr. James Car-ruthers?


Robert Laird Borden: No, it was Mr. Huntley Drummond, of Montreal. We assented also to>
that. Then the matter was taken up in the press, and appeals were made. At that particular time a great deal was said in the press as to the vast importance of machine guns at the front. The Government had not -been idle in the meantime. I remember, I think it was in October, 1914, when I was attending to the affairs of the Department of Militia and Defence for about a week, it was represented to me that unless a certain proposal that

was made to us with regard to the - provision of machine guns was accepted at once, we might lose them altogether. The number of guns in question was 250. I directed that the guns should be ordered at once, and they were ordered the same day the matter was brought to my attention. Further orders were given during the autumn and winter, and very considerable orders during the spring and summer of 1915. The Government had in mind the necessity of machine guns throughout. But when this campaign was made by the press in various parts of the country, patriotic people all over Canada were naturally very much interested and enormous sums of money were subscribed and very large amounts paid in. If I remember well the total amount otf subscriptions paid in was nearly $800,000. When I returned from Great Britain the matter was brought to my attention and I made a public announcement in the city of St. John as to what the desire of the .Government was. I have not the words before me, but I made it clear that so far as the provision of machine guns was concerned, that should be defrayed from the public treasury, and I expressed the hope that those desirous of giving of their means for patriotic purposes would contribute rather to the Patriotic Fund, the Canadian War Contingents Association, the Red Cross Fund and other movements of that kind. I found it necessary to make three or four public statements before the movement came to -a standstill. Then the question was, what should be done with the money that had been paid in? After very careful consideration we arrived at-the conclusion that it would not be desirable, or even possible, to repay those sums. In a few cases request was made of the Government that sums contributed should be repaid. In all such cases the same answer was given and the reasons explained why, under the circumstances, the Government thought it undesirable to begin repayment of these sums. One reason was that a portion of the money had been applied to the purpose for which it was given, apd we did not see that it would be useful or desirable to entertain any request for repayment.
My hon. friend from Pictou has also spoken of the commandeering of ships, and with a great deal of what he has said I desire to express my concurrence. I can assure him that this Government has not been behind hand in placing before the Government of the United Kingdom all the

considerations he has expressed, and in several instances at least we have induced the British Government to reconsider their determination to commandeer vessels engaged in the local trade of Canada. For very good reasons we took that stand. It is quite impossible for a committee of the Admiralty in 'London, upon which the Government or the people of Canada have no representative, to be thoroughly aware of the local conditions in this country, to be thoroughly aware of the interests of our people and their dependence upon water communication. All this has been put forward in very cogent terms, and on a very great number of occasions during the past four or five months that very subject has been the cause of urgent communication from the Government of 'Canada to that of the United Kingdom.
I join my hon. friend from Pictou in his tribute to the women of Canada for their splendid spirit of devotion and selfsacrifice in this war.
The hon. member referred also to recruiting for the naval service. I regret that I am not able to give information on that subject, but the Minister of the Naval Service, no doubt, will do so.
The hon. member was inclined to criticise the efforts put forth by the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Finance to impress upon the people the importance of production and the necessity for saving. I do not think that an admonition of that kind is out of place, notwithstanding the view of my hon. friend to the contrary. I recollect being very much impressed by a remark made to me by a representative sent by the Government of Denmark to this country a few years ago, I met him for a few moments on Parliament Hill, and, in the course of a short discussion, I asked him: What is it that has impressed you most during your visit to this country up to the present moment? He answered:	If I may be perfectly frank
with you, the thing that has most impressed. me in this country during my visit is the awful waste that goes on in Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific." I think that increased production, the desirability of saving and the elimination of waste ought to be impressed upon the people of Canada during this war, and in my judgment the Department of Finance and .the Department of Agriculture have made no mistake in the movement for that purpose which they have initiated.

So far as cruel and unusual punishments are concerned, I entirely agree in condemnation of such methods. The Deputy Minister of Militia and Defence informs me that there is no warrant for them in the militia regulations. Every necessary investigation will be made-an investigation is being made at the present time,-and if it is found that the allegations made in this House with regard to this matter are well-founded, then the necessary action must of course follow.
My hon. friend from Kings, P. E. I. (Mr. Hughes) brought up matters with which I shall not trouble the House to any great extent, but I desire to say a word or two about some of them. As to powder milk, I am informed that the analysis to which exception is taken was made by the Dominion Analyst, and the department thought themselves entitled to rely upon it; also that the ration of which powder milk formed a part was determined by the Army Service Corps, and that tenders were called for in the usual course.
With regard to the advertisement of the Military College, he said that a newspaper somewhere in his province had not been permitted to publish it. The Deputy Minister of Militia and Defence informs me that the publication was restricted to a few papers, and that many Conservative newspapers have applied for permission to publish it and have been refused.
The hon. member says that " 600 canned Canadian officers "-to use his expression embodying some wild misinformation of which he has become possessed-are to be found in Great Britain at the present time. I am informed that a certain number of officers in Great Britain are what is called " supernumeries," but all are attached to some unit and all are employed.
Some hon. member on the other side, I think it was the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mi. J. J. Hughes) criticised members of this House who have put on uniform in the endeavour to do their duty as loyal, patriotic sons of this country. My hon. friend is sufficiently answered by the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), who points' out that, even where men do not possess the military knowledge and experience which would enable them to go to the front, or even where they are beyond military age and could not face the physical endurance required of them if they should go to the front, nevertheless they can give real and valuable service to this country by devoting their energies in the communities where
they reside to promoting the enlistment of battalions which will go to the front. It seems to me that such efforts are not to be condemned, but are to be commended.
My hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp) spoke of many matters as to which answer has already been made by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes.) I will not pause to deal further with them. There was no wish or sanction on the part of the Government for any departure from well Tecognized and proper methods of administration in the county of Cumberland or elsewhere.
My hon. friend the member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) spoke of General Lessard having been ignored since the outbreak of this war. I must take exception to that statement, because General Lessard has been engaged in the discharge of exceedingly important duties. I do not believe that any man at the front has had responsibilities that are more important or that have been discharged more adequately than those assumed by General Lessard in his position as Inspector General. I know of his work in the province of Ontario, and I believe that he has rendered most valuable service to Canada and the Empire in the discharge of his highly important duties as Inspector General. The hon. gentleman has spoken of the assistance which General Lessard could render to the cause of recruiting in the province of Quebec; I should be very glad to take all that into consideration. I pay a tribute also to the gallant and loyal citizens of French origin from the province of Quebec who have gone to the front and who have in very many cases notably distinguished themselves. I paid the same tribute to them when I had the privilege of being in France and Belgium last summer. I had the honour on that occasion of congratulating some of them upon the fine service which they had rendered to this Dominion and the whole Empire.
My hon. friend the member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) spoke of certain matters as to which I gave him answer at the moment, except in one respect. He suggested, indeed, he asserted, that the lists of casualties were being dealt with by some authorities-I am not quite sure whom he intended-not with the view of giving information to the public as it ought to be given at the earliest possible moment, but with the view of political expediency and in . order to cover up the shortcomings of those who are responsible for the conduct of this war. I desire sc far as this Government is



concerned to repudiate in the strongest terms consistent with Parliamentary usage any such statement as that. I am informed and I believe that the casualties are published in this country as speedily ^as possible consistently with the considerations to which I alluded when answering the hon. member for Edmonton. It is necessary in the first place that the next of kin so far as they are known shall be notified. The telegrams are decoded, the men are identified, all the detail that is necessary is dealt with, and after all that has been done the casualties are published at the earliest possible moment. So much is this the case that the staff of the Department of Militia and Defence which is charged with this duty remains at work until four or five o'clock in the morning whenever these casualty lists come in. The idea is, to give notice to the immediate relatives of those who are killed or wounded, and when it is ascertained that that advice has been given to the immediate relatives, not a moment's time is lost in making the casualties public.
I do not know that there is anything further with which I need trouble the committee at the moment. In conclusion, 1 hope hon. gentlemen on both sides and the people of the country will at least give those responsible for the administration of public affairs, under these circumstances of great strain and urgency, the credit of *believing that they are inspired by a fixed resolve to do their duty. 1S0 far as I am concerned and so far as my colleagues are concerned, we have devoted ourselves to the great common purpose, which is of the highest possible import not only to this country but to the Empire and to the world, with all the energy that in us lies.
Resolutions reported and concurred in.
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House adjourned at 143.55 a.m., Tuesday.
Tuesday, May 2, 1916.