1916-02-10

THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS FIRE.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I wish to inform the
House that I have received the following messages of sympathy:
Paris, 7 fOvrier, 1916.
Monsieur le President de la Chambre des communes du Canada, Ottawa.
J'ai l'honneur de vous exprimer la profonde emotion de la Chambre Frangaise en presence du sinistre qui a detruit le Palais du Parlement canadien. Mes coll&gues et moi nous nous in-clinoiis avec respect devant les tombes des victories, et nous adressons a leurs families nos plus vives sympathies.
Le President de la Chambre des Deputes,
Paul Deschanel.
The Speaker, House of Commons.
Heartiest sympathy and congratulations escape Mde. S6vigny.
Grey.
London, February 5, 1916.
Speaker, Canadian Parliament, Ottawa.
Deeply regret disaster to Parliament House, and your personal loss. Sincere sympathy.
Speaker Lowther.
Quebec, 4 fevrier.
Hon. A. Sevigny, Ottawa, Ont.
Profondes sympathies dans cette terrible et cruelle 6preuve pour notre pays. Veuillez faire part de mes sentiments aux ministres, deputes et families des victimes.
Cyrille F. Delage, Orateur de l'Assembl6e Legislative, de la province de Quebec.
Translated, the above reads:
Quebec, February 4,
Hon. A. S6vigny.
Sincere sympathy in this terrible and cruel affliction for our country. Please transmit my feelings to the ministers, members and families of the victims.	CyrUlo F. Delage.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: With the permission of the House, I will read some telegrams which have been received since yesterday :
London, February 8, 1916. Prime Minister, Ottawa.
Empire Parliamentary Association offer sincere sympathy in appalling disaster and loss of valuable life. Congratulations on your fortunate escape.
Montreal, Que., February 8, 1916.
Sir Robert Borden, Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
I have the honour to inform you that I have just received a cablegram charging me to present in the name of the Government of the King of Italy the condolences for the loss and destruction of the Dominion House of Commons.
Zunini,
Consul General for Italy. Capetown, February 9, 1916.
Prime Minister, Ottawa.
The Government and people of the Union of South Africa send you their heartfelt sympathy in your great loss.
Botha.
Translated, the above reads:
Paris, February 7, 1916. The Honourable the Speaker of the House or Commons of Canada, Ottawa.
I have the honour to express to you the deep emotion of the French House of Deputies in the face of the disaster which has destroyed the Canadian Parliament Buildings. My colleagues and I bow with sorrow before the tombs of the victims, and we beg to address to their families our utmost sympathy.
The President of the Chamber of Deputies, Paul Deschanel.
Rajkot, February 8, 1916. Premier, Dominion Government,
Ottawa.1
Bombay Presidency deeply sympathizes with Canada in her irreparable loss.
Lord Willingdon, Governor.



REPORT OF CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF DOMINION POLICE.

[Stage Direction]
SiT ROBERT BORDEN: I was asked yesterday with regard to a report from Col. Sherwood, Chief Oommissiomeir of Do-
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minion Police, on the fire which occurred on Thursday last. On the 4th instant Col. Sherwood handed me a report which I did not get in time to bring down on that day, and I have since asked him if he desired to supplement it in any way. He says that it contains all the information with regard to the fire that is available up to the present time. The memorandum is: Chief Commissioner of Police, Canada, Ottawa, February 4, 1916. Memorandum for the Right Honourable the Prime Minister of Canada.
Sergeant Carroll who was in charge of the police on duty at the House of Commons last night, reports that at about 8.45 p.m., fire was discovered in the reading room among papers lying on the shelf of the second reading desk from the House of Commons entrance. Constable Moore was the nearest officer on duty at that point and his attention was called to it by a gentleman whom he recognized as a member, but whose name he cannot recall. The fire at the time he saw it had apparently just started and had not reached serious proportions. He immediately got a Are extinguisher from the Senate side, thereby passing the flame and upon operating it found that it had no retarding effect, because it had gained great headway in that brief space of time. The sergeant and one or two other men had arrived then and got ready the hose that was stationed at the Speaker's door, but the blaze was already coming out from the reading room so that they were compelled to abandon it, and got the hose in operation from the west corridor, while other constables with the caretaker of the Senate reading room had also a line of hose operating from the Senate side, but even then found the smoke so dense that they were unable to get any results and were forced away from that part of the building, by which time the fire brigade had arrived, the police then bent their energies to warning those in rooms and in getting them out of the building, as it was evident that the conflagration was going to be serious.
I regret to say that in addition to the two ladies who died by suffocation in Mr. Speaker's quarters five others are reported missing, and I fear have perished,-
Mr. Haw, member of Parliament for Yarmouth, N.S.
Mr. J. B. R. Laplante, assistant clerk, House of Commons.
Mr. Robert Fanning, Post Office Department.
Mr. Alphonse Desjardins, plumber, Publio Works Department.
Constable Alphonse Desjardins, Dominion Police Force.
I have no reason to believe the fire was the result of a malicious act, but would suggest that a board of inquiry be constituted to fully investigate all the facts, and if possible to ascertain the true cause.
(Sgd.) A. P. Sherwood,
Chief Commissioner of Police.

[Stage Direction]
Reports of the Auditor General for the year ended March 31, 1915, Vol. 2.-Sir Thomas White.

Orders in Council Nos. P. C. 731, dated April 19, 1915, and P. C. 1168, dated May 21, 1915, setting forth the arrangement between the Federal Government and the Governments of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan respectively in regard to the Royal North-West Mounted Police.-Sir Robert Borden.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: There is a press despatch this morning to this effect:
Hieut.-Col. Maynard Rogers, of Ottawa, has been appointed temporary staff officer to Major General Hessard. .
May I ask what is the mission of Major-General Lessard in England? What position does he occupy and what are his duties?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: He has been given leave of absence fox three months to visit the troops in England and at the front, in order to perfect his knowledge of military work.


Wilfrid Laurier: He is not on active service then?


Samuel Hughes: No.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Why was Col. Maynard Rogers appointed to ah official position?


Samuel Hughes: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Then the appointment of Col. Rogers was made by the Imperial authorities and not by the Canadian authorities?	.


Samuel Hughes: 

PRIVATE BILLS INTRODUCED.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 26, respecting the Corporation of the City of Brantford.-Mr. Cockshutt.
Bill No. 27, respecting The Empire Life Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Mac-donell.
Bill No. 28, respecting The Kettle Valley Railway Company and Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company.-Mr. Green.

Bill No. 29, respecting certain patents of The Pedlar People Limited.-Mr. William Smith.
Bill No. 30, to incorporate Seaport Trusts Corporation.-'Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 31, to incorporate The Eastern Canadian Union Conference Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists. - Mr. William Smith.
Bill No. 32, respecting The Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo Railway Company - Mir. Stewart.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. MURPHY:: X. Has an application 'been made within


Mr. PATENAUDE:: [DOT] * 	-				
Counties.	Officer's Name.	Date of Inspection.	Expenses.1. Bonaventure.	Nil.	Nil. Sept. 1914	Nil. $125.36. $115.66. Special railway inspector.Oct. 1914	Rimouski	A Bernatchez	Sept. 1914	Counties.	Officer's Name.	Date of Inspection.	Expenses.2. Bonaventure	
Gasp6	Nil. A B. Caldwell	Nil. June 1910	
July 1910	Special railway inspector.Rimouski	L. J. Bourget	July 1910	
the last twelve months by or on behalf of the Federal Light and Power Company, or any other company, for permission to export electricity generated in Canada to Detroit?
2.	If so, what are the terms of the application ?
3.	Has permission been granted in any case? If so, on what conditions?


Esioff-Léon Patenaude: 1, 2 and 3. No.


INSPECTION OP WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. MARGIL:: 1.	Who did the work of inspection of weights and measures in Rimouski, Gaspfi and Bona-vonture counties in 1915, and what was the total cost of the work?
2.	How many officials were employed as compared with the number employed for this work in 1911?


WAR SUPPLIES-HORSES.
Mr. McCOIG:: 1.	How many horses from the United States have passed through Canada since August 4 1914?
2.	How many horses coming from the United States for military purposes abroad have been detained since the above date?
3.	Why were they detained?
4.	What was done with them?
5.	If sold in Canada, what amount of duty was collected on horses entering Canada since August 4, 1914?


Robert Laird Borden: It is not considered advisable in the public interest that the information asked for in this question should be given at the present time.


Mr. KAY:: 1.	How many horses have been sold in Toronto by the British Remount Commission?
2.	Was the duty paid on these horses in every case? If so, by whom?
3.	What is the total sum Received in duties?
4.	Were all the horses examined by an official veterinary before being offered for sale? If so, were any found unfit for sale in Canada?
5.	If any horses were found unfit for sale in Canada, were they either desttoyed or deported after examination? If so, how many in each case?


Robert Laird Borden: It is not in the public interest that this question should be answered at this time.


Mr. KAY:: 1.	How many horses have been sold in Montreal by the British Remount Commission?
2.	Was the duty paid on these horses in every case? If so, by whom?
3.	What is the total sum received in duties?
4.	Were all the horses examined by an official veterinary before being offered for sale? If so, were any found unfit for sale in Canada?
5.	If any horses were found unfit for sale in Canada, were they either destroyed or deported

after examination? If so, how many in each case?


Robert Laird Borden: It is not in the public interest that this question should be answered at this time.


Mr. SMITH:: How many horses purchased for Great Britain in the United States have been admitted into Canada during- each of the months of November and December, 1S15, and January, 1916, and how many of this number have been shipped from Canadian ports?


Robert Laird Borden: It is not in the public interest that this question should be answered at this time.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	Did the parties who bought horses for the Government in Prince Edward Island receive any remuneration for their services?
2.	If so, what was the nature of the remuneration, and what did if amount to?


Samuel Hughes: 1 and 2. W. S. McKie, who purchased 99 horses, $10 per diem, total, $650; Major Thurston, who purchased 2 horses, no remuneration; Lieut. Barry, who purchased 14 horses, no remuneration.


CABLE AND WIRELESS RATES.
*Mr. FRIPP:: 1.	Is the Government aware that the cable companies operating the lines between Canada and the Mother Country, as also the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company operating between Canada and Ireland, have cancelled or suspended their deferred rates and week-end letters, thereby imposing an extra burden upon Canadian citizens who have sons at the front or in England, and who may desire to communicate with them by telegraph?
2.	Has the Board of Railway Commissioners authority over Atlantic or wireless rates?
3.	If so, will the Government move the Board of Railway Commissioners to compel the cable companies to restore deferred and week-end letter rates?


Robert Laird Borden: The following
answer has been received from the Board of Railway Commissioners:
The Board is advised that owing to cable trouble the Canadian Pacific Telegraph are unable to accept week-end and deferred capie-grams. This resulted in the business being turned over to the Great North Western Telegraph Company and the Marconi Wireless Company, which companies were unable to handle. For this reason the Great North Western and the Marconi companies temporarily suspended accepting such messages, but since 1st February, we understand, the Great North Western have been accepting them. The Marconi Wireless Company still unable to accept such messages.
The following correspondence by cable with Sir George Perley is submitted for the information of the House:

Ottawa, Ont., Feb. 1, 1916. Perley, Dominion, London.
Following question on Order Paper: ' Is the Government aware that the cable companies operating the lines between Canada and the Mother Country, as also the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company operating between Canada and Ireland, have cancelled or suspended their deferred rates and week-end letters, thereby imposing an extra burden upon Canadian citizens who have sons at the front or in England, and who may desire to communicate with them by telegraph? ' Please procure all available information and cable.
Borden.
London, February 8, 1916. Prime Minister, Ottawa.
Your cable yesterday. Inquiries elicit following. Western Union Company state special rates for soldiers cabling from this side not interfered with. Suspension deferred rates and week-end letters applies only ordinary traffic, but as regards deferred rates these were reinstated so far as messages from -Canada to this country are concerned fortnight ago. Commercial Cable Company at present time accept no deferred rate or week-end letters for transmission to or from Canada, but have not interfered with special rates for soldiers. Marconi Company suspended all deferred rates and week-end letters, but their special rate for soldiers still in operation. Operation Anglo-American Company not accepting traffic at deferred rates or weekend letters for despatch westward -but state cables at deferred rate and week-end letters reaching them from points in Canada. They have nOt suspended special rates for soldiers.
Dominion.
2.	The Board of Railway Commissioners has given the following answer: "No."
3.	Answered by No. 2.


QUEBEC POST OFFICE.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How many employees have been appointed at the Quebec post office since November 1, 1911?
2.	How many were employed up to that date in the inspector's branch and the sorter's branch respectively, and how many have been appointed since, and at what salaries?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Since 1st November, 1911, there have been two hundred and fifty-two appointments made in the Quebec post office. This number includes aid appointments to fill permanent vacancies caused by resignation or death, and all temporary appointments for the summer holiday and Christmas seasons for each year since that date.
2.	There were twenty employees in the office of the post office inspector at Quebec on 1st November, 1911. There is no sorters' branch. There have been twenty-five appointments in the office of the post office inspector at Quebec since 1st' November, 1911. This number includes appointments to fill permanent vacancies

67.'t
caused by resignation and death, as well as temporary appointments during the summer holidays and absence of any members of the staff, as follows:
2 at 11,800 a year, 2 at $1,200, 1 at $1,000, 2 at $800, 6 at $600, 7 at $500, 1 at $2.50 a day, 3 at $2 a day, 1 at $1.75 a day.


WAR SUPPLIES-CANVAS SHOES.
Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	What was the average price per pair ot the canvas shoes ordered for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces?
2.	How many pairs have been issued to the units of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces in Canada and overseas, respectively?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Brices paid were from $1.50 to $2. or an average price of $1.70.
2.	All units sent overseas were supplied with one pair per man; 116,000 sent overseas; 50,000 issued in Canada.
WAR SUPPLIES-OVERSHOES.	'


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	How many pairs of overshoes have heen purchased for the use of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces?
2.	What is the average price per pair?
3.	How many pairs of overshoes have been issued to the several units of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces on, overseas service?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	124,600 pairs purchased.
2.	The prices paid were from $1.67i to $1.96, or an average price of $1.86J.
3.	About 118,000.


SMELT FISHING REGULATIONS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What is the reason for the adoption of the Order in Council passed February 9, 1915, prohibiting Ashing for smelts in the spans of bridges or within one hundred yards of such spans ?
2.	On whose recommendation was this regulation adopted?
3.	Was it first submitted to the Fisheries Board?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	To prevent the blocking of the passage
of smelts through bridges and undue advantage to certain nets that would be set too close to such spans.	*
2.	On that of the Minister of the Naval Service, acting on the advice of his technical officers.
3.	No.


PURCHASE OF SHIPS FOR WAR PURPOSES.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1. How many ships have heen purchased by the Government for war purposes since the 1st August, 1914. to date?
2.	What are the names of the ships, what is the * tonnage of each, and what special purpose are they adapted for, or what service are they intended to perform?
3.	Where, and from whom were they purchased, what was the date of purchase, and what amount was paid for each ship?
4.	What amount has been expended on each ship for repairs or changes since she was purchased?


Robert Laird Borden: It is not in the public interest to answer this question at the present time.


SHELL INSPECTORS-STELLARTON.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Who were appointed inspectors of shells at the Albion Manufacturing Company, at Stel-larton, N,S.
2.	On whose recommendation were they appointed?	-


Samuel Hughes: No inspectors have been appointed by the Militia Department.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: By whom, then, were they appointed?


Samuel Hughes: They were not appointed by us.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who did appoint
them?


Samuel Hughes: Nobody.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There were no inspectors?


Samuel Hughes: None whatever.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Oh, yes.	.


Samuel Hughes: No inspectors appointed; we had no more to do with it than the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Mac-domald) had.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My question is a
simple question-who were appointed?


Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry: The question has been answered.


BALLOTS FOR OVERSEAS FORCES.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1. Were ba'lots for the voting of Canadian overseas forces sent from Canada in 1915 to England?
2.	If so, on what date, in what quantities, and in whose custody are they at present?
3.	Was application made to the Officer Commanding the British Forces in Europe for leave to conduct the polling of votes among the Canadian Overseas Forces, in the event of an election in Canada? If so, was the application granted, and by whom and when?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1. In compliance with the provisions of section 2 of chapter 11, Statutes of Canada, 1915, 70,000 ballots were sent by the Clerk



of the Crown in Chancery to the Secretary of the High Commissioner for Canada in London on the 20th April, 1915, and they are still in his custody.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	By section 4 of the statute, sections 2 and 3 were not to come into force until His Majesty in Council proclaimed them to be in force and such proclamation was published in the Canada Gazette. This proclamation was made on the 6th of May, 1915, and was published in the Canada Gazette of May 15, 1915.


PURCHASE OF HORSES-MR. FALLIS.
Mr. McCRANEY:: 1.	Has the attention of the Minister of Finance heen called to the following extract from a news item in the Ottawa Citizen of February 3, 1916:
"Mr. Fallis stated that desiring to conform to public opinion, he had decided to devote his profits of the horse sales, amounting to $1,880, to patriotic purposes and had forwarded a cheque for that amount to the commander of the Peel county Overseas Battalion to be used as he saw fit."
2.	If so, is It the intention of the minister to request payment of the above amount to the Dominion Government?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: The Government is not aware that it has any claim upon the sum of money referred to.


SHELL INSPECTORS-NEW GLASGOW.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Have any inspectors of shells been dismissed from their work as inspectors of the shells produced by Cummings & Sons, New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, since January 1, 1916?
2.	If so, what are their names and for what cause?


Samuel Hughes: The Government has no information of inspectors of shells having been dismissed.


THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS FIRE-ALLEGED WARNING.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1. Is the Government aware that the fol-i lowing despatch was published in the press of the United States and Canada on the 4th February last:
" Warning given three weeks ago of plot to
blow up Government Buildings in Canada.
Special to the New York Times.
" Providence, R. I., February 3.-The Providence Journal will preface its story of the Ottawa Parliament Buildings fire to-morrow morning with the following statement:
"The Providence Journal three weeks ago notified the Department of Justice that it had received information directly through employees of the German Embassy that the Parliament Houses of Ottawa, Rideau Hall, the home of the Governor General in Ottawa, and large munitions plants in Ontario were to be

the next objects of German attack on this continent, in the order named.
" The Journal, furthermore, notified the Department of Justice at the same time that the German Embassy had given instructions, that the work of destruction in American munitions plants should be temporarily suspended, and that the next move to be made would * give the people of Canada a few things to think about.'
" The statement was also made by embassy officials that the arrest of Paul Koenig and the prevention of the destruction of the Welland Canal, would only stimulate these activities in, Canada.
" This information, given by the Journal to the Government, was conveyed to the Journal through a channel which Government officers at once declared, when notified of the source, had to their knowledge been in constant touch with members of the German Embassy for many months past."
2. If so, did the Department of Justice receive any such information as above referred to?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1.	This despatch has been brought to the notice of the Government since its publication on February 4, 1916.
2.	No.


UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
For a return showing the number of field kitchens supplied by the Militia Department to each infantry battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces serving overseas, the number of field kitchens purchased by the Militia Department for the use of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, the average cost of each of the field kitchens supplied, and what manufacturing firms have supplied field kitchens to the order of the Militia Department.-Mr. Oliver.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance) the House went into committee, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair, to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Bank Act by repealing the provision limiting the time within which chartered banks may lend money for the purchase of seed grain upon the security of the grain purchased, the crops to be grown therefrom and the seed thrashed from the crop ; and also by- permitting the chartered banks to lend money to farmers and those engaged in raising stock upon the security of their live stock, that is to say, upon horses and their progeny, bulls and cows and their progeny, sheep and swine.
William Thomas White: The resolution
is sufficiently plain as to the nature of the legislation which we propose to introduce, but if, at this stage, any further explanation is desired, I shall be glad to give it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I wish my
hon. friend would give the information now.


William Thomas White: The House will recall that last year we amended the Bank Act by providing that banks might make loans upon the security of " grain purchased, the drops to be grown therefrom, and the seed threshed from the crop." By the terms of that legislation the time was limited practically to last year. It was stated in the House that it was desirable that production should be encouraged' in every way and it was thought we might for that year, on account of its being war time, enact this legislation. The legislation has given some .satisfaction. I have no doubt that good results have followed its enactment, and it is now proposed to take away the time limit which was imposed by the legislation of last year so that this year the banks may continue to make advances to farmers to enable them to purchase seed grain, and take the security which the legislation of last year enabled them to take.


Wilfrid Laurier: Do you propose to make it permanent?


William Thomas White: The legislation
is permanent as drafted, but if, while the Bill is before the House or the committee, it is thought desirable that a further limit should be placed upon it, I shall raise no objection.
The other provision of this Bill involves a considerable departure. At successive revisions of the Bank Act the question has been raised as to whether a bank shall be permitted to take security upon live stock, under what is now section 88 of the Act. There has been a considerable divergence of view on this point, in the past. In drafting the Bill previous to the last revision of the Bank Act, I provided that a bank should be authorized to loan to ranchers on the security of their cattle, and if my memory serves me, also upon the security of their horses. When the matter was under consideration by the Banking and Commerce Committee, and by the House of Commons, it was thought advisable not to enact that provision and it was accordingly withdrawn. The difficulty that has arisen on every occasion when this matter has been under discussion in the House, respecting this provision, which has been asked for by many, enabling the banks to loan upon the security of the live stock of the farmer, has been the question of notice to creditors. The House is aware that, under section 88, the bank is permitted to take security upon raw material and manufactures in their various stages of produc-431
tion without registration. The matter has been fully discussed in the House and I think it is not necessary for me to advert further to that aspect of it. I pointed out last year, when the matter was under consideration, that there were thousands of transactions taking place daily throughout Canada whereby liens were given to banks upon raw material, or upon manufactures in process of completion, or upon goods, under section 88 of the Bank Act. No notice is required to be given to the public by registration or otherwise as to these liens. As far as giving liens upon live stock is concerned, it has been felt every time that this matter has been before the House in the past, that it was advisable, not only in the interests of the public and of creditors, but also in the interest of the farmers themselves, that such notice should be given. But, there were difficulties in the way of giving notice by registration or otherwise. Most of the provinces of Canada have what is known as chattel mortgage, or bill of sale, legislation under which mortgages and bills of sale upon personal property which remains in the visible possession of its owners shall not be valid as against creditors, unless registered in accordance with the laws of the provinces. Most of the provinces of Canada have legislation of that character. On the other hand, there is at least one province, Quebec, in which chattel mortgages or bills of sale are not recognized, and where there is consequently no provision for their registration. The legislation that I now propose has in the past failed to become law because of the difficulties of giving notice by registration. The Dominion itself has no organized machinery for the purpose of receiving and filing chattel mortgages, liens on live stock, or bills of sale, which might be taken by banks as security. The only organization at hand is the provincial organization, and in order to draft a Bill that would meet the requirements of the situation it would be necessary to name officials in the several provinces and under the jurisdiction of the several provincial governments, who would receive, file, and keep records of these liens, chattel mortgages or bills of sale. Therefore, this legislation has not so far been enacted.	.
Strong representations have been made to me that this legislation is very desirable. It has been pointed out, particularly from the West, that the enactment of this legislation would facilitate the making of further advances, affording a greater degree of credit to those engaged in the live stock

industry; and also that the banks would be more willing to loan substantial sums, and for longer periods, if they were permitted to take the securities referred to in this Act. It is further pointed out with, regard to cattle, that it is very desirable that they should be reared to maturity in Canada rather than sold when young and finished on the other side of the line. For all these and other considerations which I need not mention too minutely, there appears to be a very considerable public demand for this legislation.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Has the demand for this legislation come from the banks or from the farmers?	.
Sir THOMAS WHITE. It comes from the farmers. I received only recently a resolution from the United Farmers of Alberta in favour of this legislation, and it has been brought to my attention that the farmers of Manitoba were also in favour of it. Hon gentlemen will be able to tell me whether that is also the case in Saskatchewan. Tbs demand has not come from tile banks, as I shall show my !hon. friend in a few moments. I have been aware that this demand existed, and that it was the view of those engaged in stock rearing that this would afford very considerable assistance to the communities engaged in that industry. Consequently, some time ago I took the subject up and gave it my best attention and consideration. It was brought to my attention that in the United States a very large business is done by banks loaning upon chattel mortgage security covering live stock, and that the facilities afforded under the system which they have in vogue in the western states has greatly promoted that industry. I communicated with the several banks of Canada and asked their views as to whether the enactment of legislation of this character would result in increased 'accommodation being afforded the farmers and those engaged in the live stock industry. I asked them further, whether in their opinion there would he ample credits afforded during rthe coming year for the needs of the agricultural community and those engaged in the live stock industry. I received answers from all the banks, and I think they were about equally divided in opinion. About one-half were of the opinion that while not objecting to this legislation they would lend as freely if the legislation were not enacted as if it were enacted, and that they would necessarily continue to look to the personal

credit and standing of the borrower. Some of them added that they were not particularly favourable to the legislation but thought it might be of some assistance. On the other hand, a number of the banks held the view very strdngly that this legislation would result in the extension of substantial further credits to the farming community and would be of great advantage to the live stock industry. They said that with legislation of this Character they would feel justified in making more substantial advances and for longer terms. My answer to the hon. gentleman, in a word, is, that the demand for this legislation has come from the farming community, and particularly those engaged in the live stock industry, and that as to the banks, while there is a division of opinion among them as to the benefits likely to result from this legislation in the way of extension of credit, they are generally of the opinion that it will be of benefit.
I had to consider then the question which in the past has been the obstacle to the enactment of this legislation, namely the question of the rights of creditors, and of giving notice of these liens. I gave the matter ^he best consideration of which I was capable and, after canvassing the several ways which occurred to me, the Bill has been drafted so as to enable banks to take chattel mortgages or bill of sale upon live stock according to the laws of the several provinces. That is to say, a bank is put in precisely the same position as an individual or an institution that has the power to loan upon chattel mortgage or bill of sale security. I thought that was a wise conclusion, for this reason: the provinces have deemed it expedient, and in the public interest, to enact legislation protecting the rights of creditors. Unless there is some strong objection, it has seemed to me we ought to respect, so far as we can, the legislation in that regard of the several provinces. We have respected that legislation. In the Bill which I shall introduce, in the case of the provinces in which no provision for registration exists, we provide a simple method whereby notice may be given in the official gazette. I have, in a general way, covered the ground, but I desire to say further that {he Bill will be referred to the Banking and Commerce Committee. ' I need not say how much confidence I have in that committee. There are some first-class lawyers amongst its members, and if any better method can be suggested for giving notice * of this legisla-

tion, I shall be only too glad to give it my best consideration, and if possible, to adopt it-


William Pugsley: When this matter was before the House on a previous occasion, I took very strong ground against legislation of this kind being effected. I still think it would be very objectionable to pass such an Act, because it would enable the banks to strengthen their security, as they would naturally do. While they might lend money to the farmer, they would take very good care to have him sign the printed form which they would always have available, and by means of which he would pledge to the bank all his horses, swine and cattle. Whether the debt was a large one or a small one, the words used would be of a general character, and it seems to me that the result would be that the credit of the farmer with the storekeeper, from whom he must continually purchase his supplies, would be very much impaired, and in the end this would result to the disadvantage of the farmer rather than to his benefit. The minister, I see, has to a certain extent met that objection by providing that the notice of these securities shall be published in the Canada Gazette.


William Thomas White: In the Gazette of the provinces. In the provinces in which chattel mortgages and bills of sale are recognized, and in which provision is made for their registration, a chattel mortgage or bill of sale must be registered in accordance with the provincial law. But in the province of Quebec, and in other provinces in which there is no provision under the provincial law for the registration of a chattel mortgage or bill of sale, within a certain number of days after the taking of the chattel mortgage or bill of sale by the bank notice must be given to the officials of the provincial Gazette.


William Pugsley: 
Mr. TURRIFF:: Can the -minister give us any information as to the extent to which advantage has been taken by the banks in regard to the legislation which was pa-ss-ed last year giving them wider powers than -they had had previously in the w-ay of taking securities on grain. Is the -minister aware of the extent to which advantage was taken of the advances?


William Thomas White: I have no definite information on the -matter, b-ut I understand that the -legislation was an advantage.


Mir. McCRANEY:: I live in a portion of Saskatchewan in which advances would probably be made by the banks to farmers for seed grain, if -such a practice was to be carried into effect, and the answer of the minister is in accord with the information I have. I am a practising solicitor, and I never heard of any instance in which a seed grain lien was taken by a bank. I would point out further to the -minister that under the legislation of last year, in the case of a lien which the bank -could take or of a lien which was not registered, the document could be put in the banker's desk. Notwithstanding that, we have provision in our provincial -statute providing for the -registration of mortgages taken in respect of -seed grain. Is it -intended that the provincial law shall govern the registration of documents taken fo-r advances on seed grain, cattle, and other things?


William Thomas White: We propose
, merely to take away the time limitation which was imposed last year. Under this legislation it will not be necessary for a seed grain lien to be registered.


George Ewan McCraney: If advances on live stock and cattle are to be put under the provincial law, why not advances for seed grain? I must say that I do not think the officials whose duty it is to register seed grain liens will -be troubled with many of them. You may lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink; the minister is leading the banks up to the trough, but
[Mr. Pugslev.1
I doubt very much whether, by this legislation, he will be able to induce them to give any further credit to the farmers.


Wilfrid Laurier: Why will not the banks give any more credit to the farmers?


George Ewan McCraney: The reason is that the advances they make at the present time are on the personal credit of the farmer. I am satisfied, or at least I will take the minister's word for it, that the legislation will be useful in big operations in the ranching country, but, like my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley), I fear for the small farmer. The tendency in our country is to limit the extent to which security can be given, and in that connection I would point to the amendment of the Saskatchewan Chattel Mortgage Act, which provides that ordinary exemptions will apply to chattel mortgages as well as to executions. There is a good deal of talk, particularly amongst bankers, about our farmers going in for mixed farming. We have had wise essays and long lectures as to our farmers changing their methods of agriculture. To the ordinary young banker out on the prairies, mixed farming expresses itself in hogs. The young banker out there frequently gets instructions from his head office to do all he can to induce his farmer customers to go into mixed farming, and his instructions usually specify that half of any advance he makes to a farmer shall be invested in mixed farming. As I have said, mixed farming to the young banker usually means hogs, -so that if he makes an advance of $200 to a farmer he insists that $100 shall be invested in hogs. A friend of mine in Saskatchewan, near the border of Alberta, told me some time ago that he saw ten or a dozen young dead pigs close to a barn. The banker had loaned $200 to the farmer, and had insisted that $100 be invested in 'hogs. The farmer bought the hogs, but he had no means of sustaining them, and they died of starvation. That is mixed farming according to the banker, and if we don't look out we are going to have trouble on account of bankers interfering with our methods of agriculture. I do not want to come to a final conclusion at the moment, but my own view is that the minister is not doing a good thing for the small farmer in this legislation. I think in some way he should distinguish between loans which are made to cattle men and loans which are made to farmers who have only a small amount

of stock. He might distinguish between the two classes by saying, for instance, that loans of $2,000 should come under this legislation, but nothing under that.


William Thomas White: In answer to my hon. friend, I would say that I have never been in any way censorious as to the class of farming that is done in any particular province. I always assume that those engaged in & business know the best way of carrying that business on. My hon. friend says quite truly that men write essays and give lectures as to what class of farming should be carried on, but after all the farmer kn-'-w3 best what kind of farming he should engage in. I have always .said that. So far as this legislation is concerned, the remarks of my hon. friend are most interesting to me. What my hon. friend from St. John has said, has been said upon many previous occasions when this legislation has been before the House. The one desire that I have in this legislation is to facilitate, as far as I can, the granting of credits to the rural communities in order to enable them to carry on their industry to better advantage. If the Banking and Commerce Committee is of the opinion that the small farmer should be exempt from this legislation, I shall be inclined to attach great weight to their view, because I know that this question will be very thoroughly discussed by the committee. We have only one object in introducing this legislation, and if1 any part of this Bill is likely to be 'controversial, I shall be only too willing to drop it. I may say, however, that the legislation has been brought forward for no other purpose than to meet the needs of a growing industry in the West, as presented to me by the parties engaged in that industry. If it is thought desirable by the Banking and Commerce Committee, or by the House, that this legislation should be limited to dealers in live stock only, I shall be glad to give their opinion my most earnest and best consideration. But I know that in the past there has been, and I believe there is to-day, a very substantial body of opinion, both in this House and outside, in favour of granting legislation such as this, which the farmer need not avail himself of, but which he may avail himself of in order to facilitate the rearing of live stock to maturity. I know that in certain sections of the West, and other parts of the rural community, this legislation is considered of very great import-


Wilfrid Laurier: I think it is an undoubted fact that bankers as -a rule do not favour lending to farmers. Banks are rather created for the purpose of active trade, and I believe that some time ot other we shall have banks in Canada intended especially for farmers. This resolution deals with two classes of goods belonging to farmers: grain, and live stock.
I understand that the purpose of the resolution is to give banks the power to take a lien upon live stock, and to have the lien published or registered. I do not quite understand the reason for the first part of this proposition:	-
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Bank Act by repealing the provision limiting the time within which chartered banks may lend money for the purchase of seed grain upon the security of the grain purchased, the crops to be grown therefrom and the seed thrashed from the crop.
Under the cir cum stances, I am sorry to say, I am not able to get a copy of the Statutes, and consequently I do not know exactly what is meant. If I understand my hon. friend correctly, the law as it is to-day provides that banks can advance money upon grain, and it is now proposed to withdraw that power from the banks.


William Thomas White: No. I can quite understand why my hon. friend misunderstands the situation. Last year we gave this power to the banks for one year only. We are now proposing to take away that limitation of 'time, so that the banks may continue to lend to the farmers upon the security in question.


Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: This idea originated in my section of the country. It really developed out oif the practice adopted by the Lethbridge Board of Trade, which, finding that the farmers in that district couM not get credit at the banks, formed what is known as the Lethbridge live stock guarantors, a body composed of some fifty of the business men of the city of Lethbridge. This body guarantees the payment to the bank of money advanced to farmers in the immediate district for the purchase of live stock. The scheme worked splendidly, and assisted materially in the development of mixed farming. The farmers thought that they should be able to get this credit direct from the bank. The matter came before the United Farmers Association, at its recent meeting in the city of Calgary, and they endorsed the idea contained in this resolution of the Minister of Finance.
ance.

In my section of the country "there are a great many people who have come from the United States. They dislike our banking system; in fact the banking system of Canada is extremely unpopular amongst the farmers of Western Canada, not because they want to get something from the banks for which they do not give an equivalent, but because they cannot get anything in many cases from the banks, and the American farmers argue in favour of the state or local bank which exists in the- United States. One argument in favour of that is the fact that they can secure small loans by giving small chattel mortgages. I agree with the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney), that a great many essays and lectures are delivered by the heads of the Canadian banks to the farmers as to how they should farm their land, and telling them they should go in for mixed farming and abandon mining the land. Those very bankers, however, are the men who refuse to permit the farmers to go into mixed farming. In 1914, during the drought which existed in Southern Alberta, the farmers had a great many hogs, but on account of the failure of the crop they had no feed on their own farms, and so they went to the banks and asked for an advance on the strength of this live-stock, so that they could get feed for them. What happened? The banks would not give them a cent, and the farmers were forced to sell their hogs at a price away below the market price because they had no feed for them, and because the banks would not provide an advance so that they could buy feed. In many cases the farmers were responsible men, but the banks seem to have had an attack of cold feet in Southern Alberta that summer; they were afraid of the country; they did not think it would amount to anything; but I think I am safe in saying that last- year Southern Alberta, which was drought-stricken the year before, had as good a crop as three average crops. In that area of country the average' crop has been greater than the average yield in any country during any one season. If the farmers are to go into mixed farming, they must have assistance from the banks. I do not want to attack the banks for their attitude during the past year, but their attitude has been the same during all years. They are not giving assistance in many cases to the farmers of Western Canada, and I presume the same is the case throughout the rest of the country. A bank sends out a young fMr. Buchanan.]
man to manage a branch in a small community surrounded by farmers, and he can hardly advance a cent to farmers without receiving sanction from the head office. He has to communicate with Toronto or Montreal, and a farmer having an opportunity of investing a small amount in a horse or a cow may have passed away before the manager receives the sanction of the head office. There will have to be some change in the method of management of the banks before the western farmer is satisfied.


Mr. LEVI THOMSON (Qu'Appelle):: I
suppose this is hardly the time to discuss this question generally, but I want to ask the minister one question. Before I do so,
I would like to refer to some points which have come up. It is rather early to say very much oil, this question, but at present I do not see much cause to be quite as afraid of the effect of this legislation as my hon. friends from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) and Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney) apparently are, although when we discuss the question further, we may change our minds.
With regard to the -increased loans, I have not heard of any in my own own locality, but we have better authority than my experience, and I am always prepared to submit to better authority when I find it. The Grain Growers' Guide of Winnipeg has taken the trouble to make inquiries among the farmers throughout the country, and I find in a recent issue of that journal-it was unfortunately destroyed, and I therefore cannot quote from it-that a number of the answers received showed that the recent * legislation had caused a very considerable increase in the loans to farmers, and that it also had made it possible for farmers, who otherwise would not have received loans, to get them. Now, I am inclined to think that some good has been done.
With regard to the difficulty raised by my hon. friend from Saskatoon as to a banker insisting on a farmer buying hogs or something of -that kind with a portion of the money advanced, I do not see that the situation will be any worse than it is, at present, if the legislation proposed by the minister is passed. There is nothing to prevent a banker from insisting on that sort of thing if he is giving a loan of any kind. The question I want to ask is thil:	My hon.
friend from Saskatoon referred to recent legislation in Saskatchewan regarding chattel mortgages providing that a chattel mortgage shall not affect property which is exempt from seizure under execution.

My hon. friend (Sir Thomas White) proposes to recognize the existing legislation of the provinces at least so far as registration is concerned. Is he proposing to recognize that existing legislation now? Supposing a bank takes a mortgage on a farmer's exemptions, will they be affected? Without expressing a definite opinion on the question just now, I think there is a good deal to be said in favour of recognizing recent legislation in Saskatchewan or in any other province-that shall pass such legislation. I am not asking my hon. friend to decide positively whether the legislation is going to be recognized now, but I would like to hear his opinion, because the subject is worthy of his consideration. The difficulty has been raised about loans to small farmers who have a very small amount of stock but if mortgages -on exemptions are ineffective that difficulty will be largely removed.


William Thomas White: I have followed
the principle of recognizing provincial legislation with respect to bills of sale and chattel mortgages, and in the Bill which I intend to introduce founded on this resolution, it is provided that:	,
13.	The security agreement may be fnade in the form of a bill of sale or chattel mortgage, or, in any province where no provision exists in the laws of the province for the filing or other registration of bills of sale or chattel mortgages, then in the form H in the schedule to this Act or in a form to like effect.
14.	Such security agreement shall be filed or otherwise registered in accordance with, and shall be subject to the laws relating to hills of sale or chattel mortgages, as the case may he, that are in force in the province in which the live stock included in such security agreement are situate.
I am not sure that that touches the point the hon. gentleman has in view. He has in mind the fact that in Alberta there are certain exceptions which cannot be made the subject of a chattel mortgage. I think that this clause will cover them/ but, if not, I shall be glad if he will give me the benefit of his information after the Bill is introduced, and I will have the matter discussed in the Banking and Commerce Committee.


Hon. FRANK OLIVER:: I have a word
to say on behalf of the mixed-farming country and of the small farmer- When the Bank Act was up for consideration some years ago, this matter was threshed out very thoroughly. On that occasion, certain members of the House, both on our side and on the Government side, took a strong position as to the propriety of including such a provision as is made here.
I am sorry that at that time the minister did not agree with us, and am correspondingly glad to see that he has come around to what seems to me to be a very much better view. I hope that when the Bill gets into the Banking and Commerce Committee he will not be swerved from his present intention of including all classes of stock farming, whether on a large scale or on a small scale. I do not anticipate the difficulties that have been suggested by some hon. members. The purpose of this legislation, as I understand it, is to enable the banks, as the reser.voir of the money of the people, to loan part of the funds in a manner they are not now permitted to do by the Bank Act. I cannot understand that this enabling provision as regards the use by the banks of money in their care is likely to result, or'can result, in aDy detriment to those who may be looking for the advantage of the use of ithat money.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Sir THOMAS WHITE thereupon moved for leave to-introduce Bill No. 33, to amend the Bank Act. ,


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Oil the Orders of the Day:
Hon. J. D- HAZEN (Minister pf Marine and Fisheries):	Mr. Speaker, as a matter
of privilege, I desire to refer to a subject that, I think, is of sufficient importance to justify me in asking the indulgence of the House for a few minutes. My attention has been called to an article appearing in the Ottawa Evening Journal of February 9, headed: " Germans Have Access to Confidential Papers in Ottawa," and reprinting an article contained in the Toronto Star of the same date which, among other things, Says this:.
Probably the most conspicuous case on record Is that of Gustav Heidmann, secretary of the Minister of Marine, and Naval Service, Hon. J. D. Hazen. Mr. Heidmann was horn in Germany, and no doubt has relatives fighting there. He has been a long time in Canada, and is reputed as an able and efficient secretary. His name appears on the most recent list issued from the Secretary of State's Department as having received full naturalization. But Mr. Heidmann has access to all correspondence connected with Canadian coast defence, wireless, harbour patrols, and marine matters which come to the office of the Minister of' Marine and naval defence. It is not conceivable that Admiral Von Tirpitz would he so trustful, in connection with the administration of his department.
[Stage Direction]
I think it desirable that I should state the facts to the House. My secretary, Mr, Heidmami, who has been my secretary since November, 1911, was bom in Germany, and, when an infant in arms only a few weeks old, came to Canada with his parents who were dissatisfied with conditions in Germany and sought Canada with a view to making their home here and becoming citizens of this country. The father settled in Toronto, and, soon after taking up his residence there, applied to an alderman of that city for naturalization as a British subject, and received a certificate which he believed conferred upon him the rights of a British subject, but about which there may be some question as the preliminary steps were not entirely complied with. However, for over thirty-two years Mr. Heidmanm's father has engaged in manufacturing business in Toronto, has voted at elections from time to time, and has taken such part in the affairs of the city as a good citizen ought to take. Mr. Heidmann, my secretary, was brought up in Toronto, educated in the common schools there, and, after having received his education, was appointed as private secretary to Mr. H. S. Strathy, General Manager of the Traders Bank of Canada, which bank, I believe, has since been amalgamated with the Royal Bank of Canada. In 1904 Mr. Heidmann came to Ottawa as a member of the Civil Service of Canada, and he continued in the Service until 1911, being at that time assistant to the secretary of the National Transcontinental Railway Commission. In 1911, I selected Mr. Heidmann, as my secretary out of a number of applicants, because I thought him eminently fit for the position. Before making that selection, I made inquiries regarding Mr. Beidmann's character and standing, from persons in . the city of Toronto, who knew him and his family well; in whom I had every confidence, -and in whom the members of this House would have every confidence if I were to mention their names, as they are among the leading citizens of that city. The reports I received from them were of the most favourable character, with regard to Mr. Heidmann's character and abilities, and also with regard to the standing and reputation of his family who had been living in Toronto, as I have said, for thirty-two years. Since then Mr. Heidmann has acted as my secretary and has done so with 'great acceptability t(o myself, 'because of the industry .and ability 
with which he has discharged his duties. I may say for the information of the House that one of his brothers, soon after the outbreak of the war, enlisted and is now a trooper in the third troop, " C " squadron, Second Brigade, Fourth Canadian Mounted Rifles, which has since been reorganized into an infantry brigade finder the command of General Victor Williams and has been in the .trenches in Flanders for some considerable time fighting for the defence of Canada and the Empire, and for the perpetuation of those democratic principles that are so dear to the heart of every Canadian. In a letter which was received only a short time ago from Colonel F. B. Black, a member of the legislature of the province of New Brunswick, and who is also serving his country at the front, he spoke in the highest possible terms of the services which were being rendered by Mr. Heidmann's brother in the trenches and referred to the fact that he had been offered promotion on several occasions but had declined it because he preferred to remain, as he stated, with his " pals " in the ranks, and to continue side by side with those with whom he had been serving since the outbreak of the waj;.
My secretary, until a short time ago, believed that he was a British subject. Believing that his father had been naturalized, and he himself having lived in Toronto since he was an infant, he considered that he was a British subject. But there being some legal question about it, he applied for, and obtained full naturalization at the time of the outbreak of the war. I think it is only right and fair that I should make this statement to the House in view of the article I have read from the Toronto Star, and which was copied last evening into the Ottawa Evening Journal. I would like to say further, that after the war broke out, when rumours became current in Ottawa in regard to Mr. Heidmann, and on different occasions since, he has come to me and told me that if, in the slightest degree, I felt embarrassed in consequence of his connection with me as private secretary, he would at once, and without any feeling, tender his resignation and seek to make a living in some other way.
Mr. Heidmann is married to an Ottawa lady connected with some of the most prominent and oldest families in the capital. He is the father of five children who are being brought up as good Canadians and good British subjects. I declined to allow

him to resign because I felt that if I did so, or if I accepted his resignation, or gave him some position in the service that was not as important as the position he held, I would he doing a very great injustice to a young man who, I believe, is in every way an upright, conscientious, and competent public official, and who, I further believe, is as loyal a Canadian and as loyal a Britisher as can be found within the four corners of the Dominion of Canada.
This matter, previously to its being taken up by the press, was the subject of comment, and 1 had hoped that the result of the investigation which was carried on then by the Ottawa Free Press would have put an end to the rumours that were then in circulation. I might quote this from the Ottawa Free Press published in November, 1914:
Another Rumour Run to Earth.
For several days past the Free Press has been in .receipt of communications calling attention to the fact that a gentleman holding a confidential position in one of the Government Departments in Ottawa is a native of Germany. Upon this fact has been built a formidable structure of suspicion. The Free Press has just completed a very thorough inquiry. It started out with a strong doubt as to the propriety of the retention of such a one in a capacity giving him access to important and possibly secret governmental information. These doubts have been dispelled. The loyalty and sincerity of the young man have been vouched for, not only by his minister and his deputy minister, but by a large number of responsible Ottawa people. An interview with him has given the Fress Press the same impression; and further, even in the position he holds, he has access to no information that would be of value to the enemy.
That last statement is absolutely correct. Any secret information in connection with the department over which I have the honour to preside is known only to the deputy minister . and myself and, on some rare occasions, to the Chief of Staff and the Director of the Naval Service. The article in the Free Press concluded:
Don't let us get into a silly war panic. Don't let us permit anybody's reputation to be blasted by irrational rumours. The warning seems necessary because this is not the first time since the war began that the Free Press has felt called upon to defend an Ottawa citizen from cruel injustice.
I feel that a very cruel injustice is being done to my secretary by the publication of such articles as appeared last night in the Ottawa Journal, and an injustice which must bring sorrow and tribulation not only to himself, but to his wife and the members of his family. Therefore, I deem it my duty as his chief, and as one whom he has served
with the very greatest possible loyalty and fidelity during the time I have been Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to say these few words to the House, not only as a matter of justice to my private secretary, but in order that there may be to some extent removed from the public mind the unfortunate conclusions that have been drawn from evidence and facts that are entirely insufficient to justify even the slightest suspicion being attached to Mr. Heid-mann's loyalty and fidelity.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CARVELL:: I would like to call the attention 'of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to a statement made by him in the House on the 24th January last, when we were discussing certain matters in regard to shells, and when there had been a number of questions asked by my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) and myself.
I asked the minister when he was making a statement to the House if he would bring down a list of the contractors to whom contracts had been given. He said:
I shall be very glad to go to the Shell Committee and ask them to give me a statement containing the names of those to whom contracts for shell boxes were awarded.
Mr. Carvell:	Will you give the dates,
quantities and prices? As the hon. gentleman is in a good mood, it may be good time to get this information.
On the next day, 25th January, I asked the minister if he would lay the statement on the table of the House, and he said that he would get it ready. Has the minister now the information and can he lay it on the table of the House?


Mr. HAZEN:: No, I have not the information for my hon. friend yet, but I am getting it.


GERMAN CANADIANS IN THE MILITARY SERVICE.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day: '
William Pugsley: Mr. Speaker, I wish to draw to the attention of the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence (Sir Sam Hughes) an interview which appears in the Ottawa Journal of the 9th of this month. I do this not for the purpose of making comment on it or finding any fault, at present at all events; but I think it very much better - that in cases like that to which I am going to call attention, as well as the case to which the Minister of Marine has called attention, the matter should be

brought up in Parliament and a fair and frank statement made. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) should - not be too censorious on either the newspapers or the people throughout the country who have written and spoken with reference to the subject of his complaint. I know there has been a good deal of talk, and I think it much better that the minister should bring the matter before Parliament and make a statement as he has done, because it tends to remove erroneous impressions, and to allay suspicion and anxiety. The press and people of this country are naturally exceedingly anxious and sensitive at the present time. I have called the minister's attention to this interview in the Journal and he has given me permission to bring the matter up. The interview is as follows:
" There is an erroneous impression in the country," saifi General Hughes to-day, " that there is some German officer around Ottawa doing intelligence work. That German officer is at the front in the trenches. He is one of hundreds of Germans loyally fighting with Canada under the British flag." The Minister of Militia was referring to newspaper comment on statements made some time ago by the Minister of Militia that Capt. Kahn, his chief intelligence officer, was a German with two brothers fighting in the German army, that he was the son of a German officer and that his mother was the daughter of an Austrian General.
" It is remarkably strange," continued General Hughes, " that they do not state that thirtj'-eight Germans have fallen in the service fighting the battles of the Empire with the Canadian forces. It would be better if those who are endeavouring to make a race war out of it would follow their example. This is not a race war, but a war of liberty.
" There is an agitation all over the country regarding military protection for civic works, such as water works. This is a pyrely municipal matter in which the Militia Department has no concern. If the people would throw fewer cigarette or cigar butts around there would be fewer fires. Twice in three weeks there have been fires in the reading room of Parliament.
" In the South African war," he said, " I had the honour of enlisting the first Boer in the British service. There never were truer men or better fighters once they realized the difference between Boer and British liberty."
Would the Minister of Militia kindly state whether that interview is correct, and if - it is not, in what particulars it is incorrect?


Samuel Hughes: I did not state that Captain Hahn-not Kahn, as in the newspaper-had any relatives fighting against the British in the Austrian or German forces. His father is a very estimable resident of the city of Stratford. In his younger days he was in the German army, 
but, like many another splendid resident of Canada and the United States to-day, he left Germany on account of the tyrannous government in that country, and the spread of militarism. He came to Canada as a citizen and has been a most estimable citizen ever since. His son, I am proud to say, is following in the footsteps of his father, and is now fighting splendidly at the front for the cause of liberty. He has already, rton the Distinguished Service Order a!t the front in the British service.


William Pugsley: The paper states that the minister said that Captain Hahn was chief intelligence officer at the front.


Samuel Hughes: Chief intelligence officer of the British Canadians at the front, and a finer fellow never lived. The statement in the paper is correct, that 38 Canadians *of German descent had fallen in action, while many more were wounded. I am proud to bear testimony to the fact that in the South African war, once the Boer realized that the British cause was the cauSe of. liberty, he fought with us against the cause of Krugerism, which is akin to Kaiserism in. Europe. If the people of the world would take a little trouble to understand that the cause we are fighting against is not the cause of the German people but the cause of Kaiserism and tyranny, I have that faith in humanity that I believe thousands more people of.German descent would be fighting with us to-day in the great cause of human liberty.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend has not referred to the statement that this man had two brothers fighting in the German army.


Samuel Hughes: I think I have already denied any such statement. I said that I made no reference directly or indirectly to his having any relatives in the Austrian or German forces. He has none whatever.


William Pugsley: Then there is the statement alleged to have been made by the minister that twice in three weeks there 'have been fires in the reading-room of Parliament. *


Samuel Hughes: That matter is now .under investigation; but my information is exactly as stated there. I know that on one occasion an incipient fire was caused by a cigarette butt, and on another occasion by a match.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Last year we were furnished with a printed statement giving details of the expenditures on war account,
i

[DOT] and we were promised a similar statement this year. Will isueh a statement be presented?


Robert Laird Borden: I have asked the various departments of the Government which have made any payments out of the war appropriation to give all necessary information as to their expenditures. This information has not yet been received from all the departments. When it is received I shall consider what my hon. friend has said and shall be glad to bring down the information.


WAR SUPPLIES-HORSES.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Samuel Hughes: In my absence yesterday a question was raised regarding the purchase of horses, into the details of which I shall not enter. Some observations were made concerning horses purchased in the Kings county region in Nova Scotia in comparison with those purchased in Prince Edward Island and other parts. The horses purchased by Major Anderson in New Brunswick for his battery cost upwards of $225 each. The horses purchased in Prince Edward Island cost, I think, an average of $175.50. The horses purchased in Sydney, C.B., I understand, cost $185 and upwards. These, taken all in all, were good horses. The horses purchased in the Kings county region cost on an average $171.09. Soon after the camp started, when these horses commenced coming in, I remember one morning, when I was out bright and early, seeing a number of horses coming into camp. I admired most of them as they passed, for they were in splendid condition. I asked whence they came, and was assured that they came from the vicinity of Kings county, in Nova Scotia. They were without exception the finest looking lot I had seen come into camp. Towards the tail of the procession there were about twenty-two horses that were rather dried up looking, and four horses that certainly never should have been allowed inside the camp; I am free to admit that, but it is an old game, I understand, among some of these smart-alec horse dealers to change horses in the cars when they are loading and things like that. Any one who set eyes on these four would have realized that they were swapped horses, and that the other twenty-two were not up to the standard. I immediately held them up, and made inquiries, and I was informed that they had been for forty-eight
hours without food or water in a car standing in a yard somewhere along the line. Four of them were disposed of as no good, but the other twenty-two-I am not exactly sure whether the number was twenty-two or twenty-one-were placed in suitable quarters and given lots of food and water, and at the end of two weeks they were a lot of very fine looking animals. I say this without prejudice to anybody. I do not wish to raise any controversial issue to-day, but I am prepared to enter into the details of this transaction on any occasion if any one chooses to bring it up. I do not want to make it a political issue, but if any one cares to make it such I am prepared to discuss it as a political issue. If any one wants to treat it as a business issue, I am prepared to treat it as a business issue. 'So fax as the horses purchased in Kings county are concerned, I say that they were about the cheapest horses purchased in the Maritime Provinces. They were better than the horses purchased in the Westmorland region, and better by 30 or 35 per cent than the horses purchased at Sydney.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is rather hard upon the Sydney horses.


Samuel Hughes: 
NEW NOVA SCOTIA JUDGE.
[Stage Direction]
On Orders of the Day:
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would like
to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister if the statement which I see in the press that Mr. Joseph A. Chisholm, K.C., has been appointed a judge of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia is correct?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, it is true. INSURANCE COMPANIES' CHARTERS.
On motion of Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance), the House went into committee, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair, to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to provide that any insurance company whose power to apply for a license under the provisions of the Insurance Act, 1910, will expire before the end of the next session of Parliament, may obtain an extension of such power until the end of the next session of Parliament by filing a notice in prescribed form with the superintendent of insurance, and paying a fee of one hundred dollars.


William Thomas White: The object of the legislation we have in view is to extend for one year, until the end of next session of Parliament, the charters of in-
5 p.m. surance companies which, while incorporated under existing legislation, have not been able to organize on account of the war. The Bill which I-propose to introduce is in precisely similar form to that introduced last year, and its object is the same.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I understand that the
object of the Bill is to give certain companies who have been incorporated a certain length of time to take out their license. Not having been able to organize, these companies have not taken out the license. The minister must have a list of such companies. Are they fire or life insurance companies, or both?


William Thomas White: It applies to any insurance company whose power to apply for a license under the provisions of the Insurance Act, 1910, will expire before the end of the next session of Parliament. My hon. friend desires a list of the outstanding companies, and I will endeavour to get it for him before we reach the second reading.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Sir THOMAS WHITE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 34 to authorize certain extensions of time to insurance companies.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rhodes in the Chair.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-Northwest territories, Yukon territory, provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan-pay of force, $630,216.75.
Robert Laird Borden: I might make
some explanation of this vote. The members will observe that there is a reduction of $280,356. That is due to the fact that the force has been reduced. On the outbreak of war the force was increased to 1,200 noncommissioned officers and constables, and a number of men were engaged specially for one year's service . Of these about 300 took their discharge in August and September last, the large majority joining overseas forces, and owing to the peaceable demeanour of persons of enemy nationality and the presence of large bodies of troops in training in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, it was not considered neces-

sary to keep the force up to its strength of, 1,200-900 non-commissioned officers ' and constables being considered sufficient. When the commissioner's recommendation of this decrease, concurred in by the comptroller, was brought to my attention, I gent a copy of the report to my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition before taking any action on it. I thought the matter was a proper one upon which to consult him, especially as for more than fifteen years he had been the political head of the force. He agreed with me that it would be safe to act upon the report of the commissioner and the comptroller, and the force was consequently reduced from 1,200 to 950, and the contemplated reduction is to 900. The present strength of the force is 950 officers and men, and 987 horses, distributed as follows :
Officers and
	men.	Horses.
Alberta	393	406Saskatchewan	445	559Northwest Territories...	22	2Yukon Territory . . . .	60	20Hudson Bay	30	950	987There are 10 divisional	posts	and 253 detachments.
With regard to the present arrangements between the Eederal Government and the provinces, information has already been given to the House in the Orders, in Council which I had the honour of laying on the table this afternoon. Briefly speaking, those arangements are as follows: the existing agreements will expire on the 31st of March, and arangements for their renewal have been entered into, the only difference being that they can be cancelled by either the Dominion or the Provincial Government on one year's notice being given. Each province pays $75,000 annually for the services of the force, and also pays for the maintenance of all prisoners and lunatics confined in Mounted Police guard rooms, and their transport expenses.
In connection with the work of the force for the past year, the attention of hon. members might be directed to the report of the comptroller of the force, which has already been laid on the table of the House. I think a portion of the report is of sufficient importance to read to the House, as it relates to a very important subject. I am reading from page 8:
When the war broke out, some natural apprehension was felt for the peace and good order of the Western provinces, owing to a

large percentage -of the population being of enemy nationality, and it was therefore decided that the strength of the Mounted Police should be increased. No disturbance of the public peace has taken place and the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta during the past twelve months have been singularly quiet and orderly This fortunate condition is due to a variety of causes, wise precautions, fair and impartial treatment by the authorities, and an admirable attitude of self-restraint on the part of the loyal population towards the enemy aliens, and the recognition by these nationalities that as long as they pursued their ordinary avocations, and refrained from inimical acts, they would not he molested nor interfered with.
Distributing reports have been received, and alarming rumours have been current, from time to time, all of which, no matter how trivial or improbable,' have been investigated and found to be baseless. However, there have been instances of individuals whose acts and words were treasonable and seditious. In a few cases, they were prosecuted and convicted.
The enemy nationalities are principally engaged in tilling the soil. They own their farms, have large interests, and have no intention of imperilling their property and their own security and safety.
I might say, in passing, that there was an intense desire all through the force to be permitted to enlist en masse. They would gladly have done so, but there were of course considerations which prevented that. The force had to be maintained at a suitable strength in the West in view of occurrences which might arise. The report continues:
The decrease in the strength is due to the fact that shortly after the outbreak of the war, authority was granted to increase the force by five hundred men for one year, and that nearly all the men so engaged took their discharges for the purpose of joining the army for service at the front. Many of them had joined because they thought that a contingent would be selected for active service. As this was not the case, they took the earliest opportunity of accomplishing their highly laudable and patriotic purpose.
The Comptroller, with whom I have discussed this subject, has made the significant statement that the influence of the women among the alien enemy portion of our population has been very beneficent. They are attached to the homes which they have established in the West, and appreciate, perhaps even more than the men, the liberties and privileges which they enjoy under the system of Government that is established and maintained in this country, and so their influence has been an important factor in bringing about the results to which I have alluded. The report continues:
They are scattered over the vast areas of these provinces, and it is quite apparent that
no concerted action could take place without preparation and organization, lacking which, any outbreak would be sporadic and fruitless.
The conditions for suppressing any such out- / break have greatly improved. Large bodies of troops are now under training at every centre.
For" the foregoing reasons, I recently reported to you that I did not consider it was necessary to maintain the strength at more than 900 and which recommendation you approved.
I have already spoken of the profound desire upon the part of the officers and men of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police to enlist for active service, but for the reasons I have indicated it was held impossible to grant their request. On the 25th day of August, 1914, this general order was made:
No leave of absence can be granted to officers, non-commissioned officers or constables of the force for the purpose of serving in any expeditionary force leaving Canada for the European war.
On the 3rd day of February, 1915, another general order was passed in the following terms:
Any non-commissioned officer or constable, who has less than three months to serve to complete his present engagement, may be permitted to purchase his discharge for the purpose of joining any contingent being raised for war services, provided he produces certificate that he will be enrolled in a contingent as above stated, if he is permitted to purchase his discharge, from the police.
This privilege is not to be extended to men who engaged for one year's service on account of the war.
I should also stale that these orders did not apply to Imperial reservists, about sixty in number, serving in the force, who were granted their discharge at the outbreak of the war to enable them to re-join the colours. The reason for that was that these men came to this country under a certain obligation as Imperial reservists. They joined the force under that obligation, and we thought it proper that they should not be prevented from filling an obligation that was binding on them at that time.
I am very glad, indeed, to be able to present to-the House the report with regard to the demeanour and behaviour of persons of enemy nationality in the western provinces. The spirit that has animated them throughout the war under somewhat trying conditions has been admirable, and the country is to be congratulated upon the comprehension and understanding of conditions as they exist, not only by persons of enemy nationality who have come to Canada for the purpose of making their home here, but by those of British or Canadian birth,
688	COMMONS
who are in large numbers in the western provinces, and who have shown a reason, able consideration for those settlers in the western part of our country who are of enemy nationality. Hon. gentlemen will remember that very early in the w*ar, on the 8th day of August, 1914, an Order in Council was passed; which, after reciting:
That there are many immigrants of German nationality quietly pursuing their usual avocations in various parts of Canada; that it is desirable that such persons should continue in such avocations without interruptionwent on to declare:
That such persons, so long as they quietly pursue their ordinary avocations, shall not toe arrested, detained, or interfered with unless there is reasonable ground to believe that they are engaged in .espionage, or attempting to engage in actions of a hostile nature, or to give information to the enemy, or unless they otherwise controvert any law, order in council, or proclamation.
That Order in Council, in the spirit in which it was promulgated, has commended itself to all elements of our population in Western Canada, with the results which, as they are embodied in the report of the Comptroller of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, I have been very happy to announce to the House this afternoon. I desire also to pay a tribute to the Comptroller, Mr, Fortescue, and to the Commissioner, Mr. Perry, for the good judgment and discretion with which they have dealt with the few matters in regard to which it has been necessary for the police to take action on the lines indicated in the report.


Wilfrid Laurier: Everybody
knew what everybody will be glad to hear from my right hon. friend, namely, that the character of the force has been and is being maintained to the very high level that it has always maintained. That will be the case so long as it is commanded by such able officers as have been at its head for 'Some years past. Commissioner Perry is the one man who is exceptionally well qualified for the position he holds, and Mr. Fortescue has also had very long experience. I have been informed that Mr. Fortescue intends to take his pension at no distant date. Is my information correct?


Robert Laird Borden: It is probable
that he will do so at no distant date; however, he is still in control.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Fortescue is advanced in years and his health is perhaps not as good as it was at. one time, so that I am not surprised to hear that 
he is contemplating taking his leave from the force. Every one will be sorry for this and I, who knew him well, will also be sorry to hear it. He is a most efficient man, most faithful in his duties, and my right hon. friend will be very lucky if he is able to secure as good a man to replace him. The work of the force at the present time in the older provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta is decreasing. In those provinces it has no other duties than those of preventing and looking after offences against the common law which are found in every society- The offences prevalent at one time, such as tampering with cattle, are becoming fewer and fewer. I suppose for some years, oir perhaps for many years, we shall have to keep a cordon along the boundary line between Canada and the United States. I suppose also that my right hon. friend is increasing his patrol and his stations in the northern part of the country. As the force becomes less and less required in the older settlements that are included in the three provinces, settlement is spreading in the North, and I would like to know if my right hon. friend can tell me how many stations of the force he has outside of the boundaries of the provinces; in the Atha-baska-district, on the Peace river, on the Mackenzie river, and on Hudson bay.


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed that there are six or seven.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many
men in all?


Robert Laird Borden: Forty-five, including Hudson bay.


Wilfrid Laurier: This will be
a very important duty of the force in the future. Settlement is going on and the older habitations of the traders and trappers are making way for permament settlements. Has my hon. friend received any information about the expedition which was sent to the North to investigate the murders reported to have taken place there?
Sir ROBERT BORDEN; The policy is to withdraw the police from the towns, as far as possible, in order to utilize th-eir services in the rural districts. When a town is incorporated, it is generally understood that it should be able to take care of its own affairs so far as police regulation is concerned. As t-o the expedition, nothing has been heard since August. At that time the report was not very important. It mentioned the discovery of a Large stone cairn where a camp had been made.


Frank Oliver: Is the murder referred to that of Street and Radford, or that of the two priests?


Robert Laird Borden: The murder of Street 'and Radford.


Frank Oliver: Is there any information with regard to the mufder of the two priests?


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that no definite information has been received up to this time.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Are efforts being made by the police to find the murderers?


Robert Laird Borden: Every effort of which the police are capable is being made.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am glad to hear the Prime Minister state that the conditions with regard to men of foreign birth are satisfactory, so far as the West is concerned, and that loyal citizens of Canada can feel that there is no disloyalty among the men who have come there to live. He spoke of the Order in Council of August 1914, as being, in effect, a message from the Canadian people as a whole to that section of our population and attributed to the provisions of that Order in Council some portion of the good results of which he spoke. But there is a growing feeling that the provisions of that Order in Council ought to be amended in relation to persons of foreign birth residing in Eastern Canada. Every hon. member must feel, having regard to information which, I ram sure, each of us is receiving from his people, that there has grown up in the mind of the average Canadian of to-day a great feeling of uncertainty and suspicion concerning people of German birth in their midst. In the West, you have communities made up of what may be called the plain people of central European countries, who have fled to Canada from the militaristic conditions under which they were living. But that does not describe the condition of affairs in the East. The people of Canada believe that there are in different localities a large number of people who are disloyal and who are in touch with the enemy. They note what * has taken place in the United States, where munition factories have been burned down and plots against life and property have been made, as is shown beyond the shadow of a doubt by the publication of the correspondence of attaches of both the Austrian and German
embassies in New York and Washington. There can be no doubt that these men have been in correspondence with spies throughout Canada. It is easy for us to publish to the world in a wholesale way concerning persons of German or Austrian birth residing in Canada that nothing will be said to him so long as he does not openly declare hostilities. But that is not sufficient, in my judgment. The time has come when something more must be done. If you have spies in the country, you may be sure that they are not shouting from the housetops the nature of their business. It is no answer to say that these men have gone to the front. The boys at the front write that the German troops seem to know all about what is going on among the Canadian sections there. A spy would probably be quite willing to go to the front in order to be able to gain information for the benefit of his country. At any rate, there can be no doubt that there is a feeling among the people of Eastern Canada that there are people among them who are in touch with the enemy. That is shown by letters which I received from Nova Scotia, and I am sure that my experience is not different from that of any other hon. members. The provisions of the Order in Council of August, 1914, ought to be made wider, and greater power should be given the Administration in order to deal with the cases-


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I would remind the hon. member that the item under consideration is the vote for the Royal North West Mounted Police, and I hope he will bring his remarks within the limits of the subject before the Chair.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You will remember, Sir, that the Prime Minister dealt with this very question. He spoke of the order of August, 1914, and dwelt upon the fact that its provisions, wide and generous as they were, had had good results amtong the foreign-born population in the West. Surely, I am in order in discussing the effect of that Order in Council, not only in regard to the West but in regard to the East as well. I do not want to go into the matter at too great length, but the same question was dealt with in another connection-if I am in order in referring to that-and I feel sure that the Prime Minister must attach importance to the representations in favour of a change in the provisions of that Order in Council. The utter disregard by the Germans and Austrians of the conditions that should ob-



tain between warring countries, is a sufficient reason why there should be, under the Defence of the Realm Act, the strongest kind of restraint upon all persons about whose loyalty there is any doubt. I have already said that I diaw a distinction between the case in the West and that of the East. The men who, coming from the common people of Central Europe, have fled from militarism and taken up pastoral pursuits in our West, are quite different from those who have come to the industrial centres of the East and who live under conditions that arouse the suspicions of the people among whom they dwell. There should be the widest possible scope given to the local authorities to deal with persons of that kind.


Robert Laird Borden: So far as the principle set forth in the Order in Council is concerned, I think there cannot be much difference of opinion. The principle laid down is with respect to persons who have been invited to come to this country, and who have come here as settlers to make their home, to become Canadian citizens and to assist in cultivating, building up and developing this country. The Order in Council provides that such persons who quietly pursue their ordinary avocations, shall not be interfered with unless there is reasonable ground to believe that they are giving information to the enemy or performing other acts of an illegal or hostile nature, or otherwise contravene the law. I do not know what action we should take other than that with regard to persons who have come to this country practically on the invitation of the people of Canada, and who are engaged in the ordinary pursuit of their every day affairs, and are quiet, peaceable citizens. But the Government was not unmindful of the fact that there might be many persons of enemy nationality who might make some attempt at disorder, and so an Order in Council was passed on September 3, 1914, which was laid on the table last session, prohibiting the use or possession of fire-arms, ammunition, or dangerous explosives, in Canada by alien enemies. I need not Tead the Order in Council, which contained quite elaborate provisions. Then, on October 28, 1914, an Order in Council was passed providing for registration of alien enemies, for appointment of regktrars of alien enemies, prescribing regulations, providing for internment, and providing that no alien enemy, required to register, shall be naturalized unless he files 
the certificate of a registrar that he is registered and that -his application for naturalization is approved -by the registrar. This Order in Council also provides that no alien enemy shall be permitted to leave Canada without an exeat from a registrar to be issued only when the registrar is satisfied that such person will not assist the enemy. The Chief Commissioner of Dominion. Police may also, in any case, grant or cancel an exeat.
'Then, on November 20, 1914, provision was made for periodical reports to registrars by persons of enemy nationality, and so on. These provisions are all that seemed necessary, as far as the Government has been able to study the situation, and I think that the good effect of the orders which have been passed in that portion of Canada where the greatest number of alien enemies is to be found is the best possible proof that the regulations -are in accordance with sound judgment and good sense.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am obliged to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister fox telling us about these official Orders in Council, but I think we might as well clear up the subject now. Matters are in an unsettled -state in Eastern Canada in regard to this question, because everybody recognizes the difference between the position of a farmer settled on the plains and a man who drifts into an industrial community in the East. Is there any provision in any Order in Council under which municipal or police authorities in any of our cities or towns can, upon ascertaining that a person is of alien or enemy birth or nationality, compel him to submit to surveillance, or to report at all times, or have they to depend upon the central authorities in Ottawa? I have in my mind the fact that in a community which adjoins my county there were two Germans living at the outbreak of the war. Shortly after the war broke out one of them went away. I reported to Ottawa at the request of the neighbours of the man who remained the fact that the other man was of alien birth, that he had only been in that place for a shirt time and that he was living on a farm. I suppose he was a man who eame within this Order in Council and who had been invited to come to Canada. I was told in reply that persons .would be sent down to investigate. They did investigate, and I was told afterwards that this man was perfectly harmless. However, it developed that he was not a perfectly harmless man, and

at the instance of the local authorities he was arrested and was, by various processes, eventually imprisoned at Halifax and then taken to the internment camp at Amherst. He escaped last summer from the internment camp by means which showed that he had at all times been an enemy and that he should have been interned. Doubt exists in a great many eastern communities in regard to matters of this kind. I had a letter to-day from my own constituency asking whether wider powers should not be given to the police authorities to deal with these men of foreign birth, at least in the four eastern provinces. These men who have come to this country and who, unfortunately, are Germans or Austrians, must pay the penalty. I wonder what our Canadian people would think if they were in Germany to-day. I think there should be the widest possible authority given to the police authorities to deal with persons of enemy nationality.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would like to ask the Prime Minister what the aliens who have been interned in the Abitibi region, in the province of Quebec, are doing. Are they cultivating the land, or simply lumbering?


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend will have to wait for definite information on that point until the Estimates of the Department of Justice are reached, because the internment camps are all under the Minister of Justice.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am not panicky, but
we must face the facts as they are. To emphasize what has been said by my hon. |riend from Piotou (Mr. Macdonald), I might give my personal experience. Last summer at Murray Bay, when the submarines which had been built by Vickers-Maxim at Montreal were undergoing their trials, there were for several days two spies in the district apparently surveying on the river Malbaie. The people at Murray Bay noticed them and immediately informed the police at Quebec. They did not get an answer as quickly as they expected, and, upon coming to me, I told them that they should wire to Col. Sherwood and he would direct the proper parties to have these persons looked after.
I do not know what became of the two spies; they disappeared as soon as they saw the brass buttons. But in the city of Quebec itself1-and my hon. friend from l'Islet (Mr. Paquette) can verify this statement-for one year before the war
there was a German named Mundschein-' they called him Moonshine down there- who had bought for a German syndicate, but apparently with the concurrence of some Canadian gentlemen, the extreme portion of the island of Orleans, just facing the Beaumont battery, which guards the city of Quebec and protects all that section of the river St. Lawrence. He had formed! a company which, I believe, came before this Parliament four sessions ago asking for a Bill authorizing them to erect some works there' It was found that Mundschein was a German spy who had been operating in Quebec. He was arrested and interned. This shows the audacity and the treachery of those people. My hon. friend, without being panicky, states what is the simple truth, that it is part of the highest German patriotism to act as a spy. Certainly these people will come into our cities with smiles and with graceful manners; but at the same time I say we should be on the look out at all times. What has been discovered in the United States as disclosed in the Von Papen papers and the revelations in San Francisco should open the eyes of the Canadian public. I am not panicky, but I say we must be very careful in guarding against the presence of these strangers in our midst.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I think it is only fair that while we are on this item of the Northwest Mounted Police, I should say a word in respect to that body, coming as I do from the city in which they have their headquarters and have had for many years. The mounted police in Western Canada, as I have known them, have been a body of men beyond reproach, perhaps the best body of men for the preservation of law and order that we have had in Western Canada or in tfie whole Dominion. I read not long ago the book of Colonel Steele, now General Steele, formerly an officer of the Northwest Mounted police, called "Forty Years in Western Canada. " That book gives one a very good idea of the pioneer work, of the hardships endured by that body of men in the earlier days of settlement all through the West. It was necessary in those days for the mounted poili-ce to go ahead of settlement and of civilization. They were the pioneers of civilization throughout the whole of Western Canada. A very interesting part of the book is the description of- the work of the police in British Columbia when the Canadian Pacific Railway was building its road into that province. They

also, of course, did work in connection with the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway from the time that road first entered the Western country.
The mounted police, as a body of men, are to-day just as good a military organization as they were many years ago. We often hear in the West to-day and in the East from men who have been in the West, that the mounted police are not as good an organization as they were, say twenty-five years ago, in the matter of the preservation of law and order. My experience with the mounted police has been that they are today just as good a body of men as they were twenty-five years ago. All of us, especially men who are growing older, are inclined to look upon things that took place in the past as being greater than those which are taking place to-day.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is as regard Governments.


William Melville Martin: As regards Governments it may be true. I also believe that we are inclined to look upon men living today as not 'being as great men as those who lived say twenty-five years ago. That may apply to statesmen as well as to ordinary individuals. However, in so far as the mounted police are concerned, I believe they are very well keeping up the traditions of the past.'
During the past year and a half, since the outbreak of the war, the mounted police as a body have rendered magnificent service in the preservation of law and order in Saskatchewan, and, I believe, in the West as a whole. Reference has been made to aliens, or rather to men who are perhaps not aliens but who are naturalized British subjects, although formerly subjects of enemy countries. We have in the West a large number of people who came from Germany, and particularly from Austria. We have had very little trouble with those people in the part of the country from which I come. A number of men have been interned, and a number have been placed on parole by the Northwest Mounted Police. I think some 360 or 370 were interned by the police, and a similar number placed on parole. A number of these came under my personal attention. The total number thus dealt with is very small when compared with the number of these people in Western Canada. I believe, of course, in exercising the greatest vigilance in looking after our alien enemies in this country; but I believe that the mounted police, in (Mr. W. M. Martin.]
our province at least, have done more than any other organization towards keeping these people in order-that is, if there had been any possibility of trouble. I am, of course, more or less inclined to look upon these people who are in this country as being entitled to a certain amount of consideration.


Robert Laird Borden: Hear, hear.


William Melville Martin: I do not believe in dealing out to them what you might term cold justice. I think the mounted police have exercised a reasonable amount of discretion in dealing with them; their justice has been largely tempered with mercy. I have always felt that these people were entitled to a certain amount of consideration largely for this reason, 'that if I myself were residing in Germany or Austria to-day I might be inclined to have my sympathies with the country from which I came, and we cannot expect these people not to have a certain amount of sympathy with their old fatherlands. Bu't, of course, they must be taught to exercise that sympathy in a proper direction. I rose simply for the purpose of expressing my views in regard to the mounted police. I have nothing to say with regard to them except a word of commendation.


Robert Laird Borden: Registrars of alien enemies are appointed in any part of Canada where representations are made to the Government, or wherever the Government obtains any information which seems to justify their appointment. When they are so appointed they are in constant touch with the chief of police and the civil authorities generally with respect to alien enemies in their vicinity. I entirely concur in my hon. friend's expression of appreciation of the work of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police.
At six o'clock, the Committee took recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Ocean and river service-maintenance and1 repairs to Dominion steamers and ice-breakers, $1,180,000.
Mr. A. K. MA'CLEAN: That seems a very large item.


John Douglas Hazen: The increase this year is $55,000, and it is due to the insertion of an amount for the maintenance of the steamer Montmagny, which, it is expected, will be raised and put in commission, after having lain in the bottom of the St. Lawrence since

the 18th September, 1914. When raised, she will be an extra steamer in the service. The cost of maintenance will be $67,500, but we are making the increase $55,000, as we will have a small surplus in respect of the other vessels. The expenditure under this vote in 1914-15 was $995,545.95, and up to the 31st December last it was $828,620.28. We are asking for the same amount as last year, plus the $55,000 for the maintenance of the Montmagny.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Have we the same number of steamers in the service as last year?


John Douglas Hazen: We will have one more when the Montmagny is raised.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was the steamer which was sold to the Russian Government replaced?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, she was replaced by the Prince Edward Island, which is one of the mail steamers between the island and the mainland.	.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: She is a ferry boat?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we are operating the car ferryboat. The car ferry service comes under the jurisdiction of the Railway Department, but for this winter's service the car ferry was placed at the disposal of the Department of Marine, and the Department of Marine pays the expenses of the operation of that steamer during this winter.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has that car ferry boat been successful?


John Douglas Hazen: We are told that it is
giving very good service.


Mr. KYTE:: What are the ice-breakers employed by the Government at present?


John Douglas Hazen: The Montcalm, the Lady Grey, the Stanley and the Prince Edward Island.


George William Kyte: Where are they placed for
the purpose of ice-breaking?


John Douglas Hazen: The Montcalm and the
Lady Grey are on the river St. Lawrence; the Stanley and Prince Edward Island are on the service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland.


George William Kyte: Would any of them be available for Sydney harbour?


John Douglas Hazen: I am afraid not this year, because I do not think we can take either of the boats from the St. Lawrence, and I am also afraid that at the time that Sydney harbour might want attention it would be
impossible to take the boats away from the route [DOT] between Prince Edward Island and the mainland.


Charles Murphy: Is the increase due to some repairs on the Montmagny?


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend will remember that the Montmagny was sunk in a collision on the St. Lawrence nearly two years ago. We have entered into a contract to have her raised for $27,000. The contractors are to place her in the dock of Levis or there will be no payment. It is a case of no cure, no pay. We expect that the boat will be repaired and ready for use by next summer, and it is for the running of the boat that the extra $55,000 has been placed in the Estimates.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This item does not include the naval service?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister give the number of steamers on the ocean and river service?


John Douglas Hazen: There are twenty-seven: the Aberdeen, Arranmore, Bellechasse, Scout, Brant, Champlain, Dollard, Druid, Estevan, Frontenac, Grenville, Lady Grey, Lady Laurier, Lambton, Prince Edward Island, Lansdowne, Maggie May, Montcalm, the new ice-breaker, Montmagny, Newington, Quadra, Rouville, Shamrock, Simcoe, Stanley and Vercheres.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there any revenue from these steamers?


John Douglas Hazen: There is from some. The Champlain conducts the ferry service between Murray Bay and River Ouelle and she earns revenue, but most of these are boats from which there is no revenue. The Aberdeen is engaged in the lighthouse and buoy service on the Bay of Fundy; the Arranmore is engaged in the same service in Nova Scotia; the Estevan in the lighthouse and buoy service in British Columbia; the Lady Laurier in the lighthouse and buoy service in Nova Scotia; the Scout is in the Prescott district; the Simcoe is on the Great Lakes; and the Stanley is in the lighthouse and buoy service in Nova Scotia.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What comes within the definition of maintenance?


John Douglas Hazen: The upkeep of the crew, coal, oil, and everything else that is neces-saray to keep the boats running.


George William Kyte: How many boats were acquired by the Government during the past year.


John Douglas Hazen: None by this department.


Samuel Hughes: Is the minister aware that the heating of the Prince Edward's saloon is very poor, and is any attempt being made to remedy it?


John Douglas Hazen: The matter has been attended to, and our latest advice, is that the saloon is comfortably heated.


Samuel Hughes: Could the minister give me the names of the officials, and the stewards on the Stanley and the Prince Edward? '


John Douglas Hazen: I remember that the name of the steward on the Stanley is Hill. I do not remember.the name of the steward on the Scout. The Prince Edward belongs to the Department of Railways and Canals, and all officials on that boat are appointed by that department. We simply operate the boat during the winter, and as soon as the winter is over the boat passes under the absolute control of the Department of Railways and Canals.


Samuel Hughes: Have the trips been
regular this year?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I see another item for repairing the steamer Montmagny. Why have one item under Ocean and River Service, and another item under Lighthouse and Coast Service?


John Douglas Hazen: The item under discussion is for the ordinary maintenance of the steamers. The other item is an extraordinary item, involving the raising of the Montmagny, and for repairs much more expensive than those which might fairly be charged to maintenance.


George William Kyte: How many boats have been sold by the department to the Russian Government since the outbreak of war?


John Douglas Hazen: Two, the Earl Grey and the Minto.


George William Kyte: Have any boats been purchased to take their places?


John Douglas Hazen: No; the car ferry takes
the place of one of the boats.
Ocean and river service-examiners of masters and mates, $16,500.


John Douglas Hazen: This item is required to pay the salaries, travelling expenses, and
[Mr. Hazen.J
rent of offices of the examiners. We asked for the same amount in 1914-15, and spent $12,723.17. For the current year the estimate is $16,500. Up to the 31$t of December we have spent $10,413. In addition to examining candidates for the positions of masters and mates, the examiners are expected to conduct preliminary investigations into wrecks, and to perform such other duties as the department may from time to time assign to them.


Samuel Hughes: Who is the examiner at Charlottetown?


John Douglas Hazen: Capt. Alexander Cameron.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: The minister intimated last year that he had in mind some changes in the form of examination for masters and mates which would enable captains holding coasting certificate's to take longer voyages than the present law permits them to take. Has the minister worked that idea out?


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend has introduced a Bill for the purpose of allowing those who hold coasting certificates to take Longer voyages, and when the Bill comes up I shall be prepared to give the views of the department to the House.


John Howard Sinclair: The Bill I introduced does not deal with the examinations; it simply seeks to have the line extended from 5 degrees north latitude to 40 degrees south latitude, in order to enable coasting vessels to go further south than they can at present. That is not the proposal the minister made last year. He proposed a new examination, and the issuing of a different kind of certificate. Does the minister contemplate doing anything along that line?


John Douglas Hazen: To do anything of that
sort we should have to have legislation. What I suggested last year was that in addition to the deep sea certificate, and the coasting certificate, there might be another certificate which I referred to as a limited foreign certificate, enabling captains to go, not only on coasting voyages, but a much further distance than they can at present. The matter has been given some consideration during the recess, and when my hon. friend's Bill comes up I shall be prepared to state just what our matured opinion on the subject is. As my hon. friend has pointed out to the House on several occasions, owing to the limitation

of a coasting certificate, a good many of our vessels have withdrawn from Canadian register. There is also a tendency to register in the United States and Barbados rather than in Canada. I hope that we shall be able to make an arrangement pretty soon which will be quite satisfactory.
Ocean and river service-investigation into wrecks, $12,300.


John Douglas Hazen: The sum voted to us for
the current year was $13,400 and up to the 31st of December, we spent only $3,068. Therefore we think we are justified in reducing this vote by $6,100 as compared with the vote for the current year.


John Howard Sinclair: Were there many
wrecks last year?


John Douglas Hazen: I have a list here of investigations held on wrecks that occurred during the year.


John Howard Sinclair: It would be interesting to know how many lives were lost.


John Douglas Hazen: The losses in the wrecks
that were investigated by the commissioner in most cases were small. The list, which is quite lengthy, is up to February 7, of this year. In June, the A. W. Perry stranded and was lost. The finding was that the stranding was in consequence of the carelessness and negligence of the master and the court suspended his certificate for six months. The cost of holding that investigation was $125.46. On August 30, the Alexandria was beached by the master owing to the fury of the gale and he was not held to be at fault. On August 13, 14, and 16, there was an investigation into the collision between the Batiscan and the Ben-gore Head. The Batiscan was held to be at fault; the master was suspended for two years, the pilot fined $100, and the pilot of the Bengore Head had his license cancelled. Does my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) wish me to read the whole list?


John Howard Sinclair: No.
Ocean and river service-expenses of schools of navigation, $8,000.


George William Kyte: Where are these schools
located?


John Douglas Hazen: At Halifax, St. John, Quebec, North Sydney, Yarmouth, Collingwood, Kingston and Vancouver. In addition, we pay with this vote $500 a year to Queen's University, and the university provides free
instruction and pays all expenses of lecture rooms, rent, etc.


Charles Murphy: Who are in charge of
these schools?


John Douglas Hazen: At Halifax, Captain John
Simmons; at St. John, Captain R. C. Coles; at Quebec, Captain P. L. LaChance; at North Sydney, Captain James Sutherland; at Yarmouth, Captain J. E. Murphy; at Collingwood, Captain Cole; at Kingston, Captain MacMaster; and at Vancouver, Captain Charles Eddie.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do you make any allowance to the Technical School at Halifax?


John Douglas Hazen: We supplied the equipment at the Technical School at Halifax, and I think we also pay the instructor.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What number of
students were there?


John Douglas Hazen: The school at Halifax is
run the whole year around and is well patronized. During the last six months there has been an average daily attendance of eight pupils, and fifty-nine candidates have been examined for certificates during the past ten months.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What number at other
schools?


John Douglas Hazen: The average attendance at the school at St. John has been three, and fourteen candidates for certificates have been examined during the past ten months. At Quebec the school was not in operation during the summer and autumn months owing to the transfer of the instructor, Captain P. L. LaChance, to the pilot service of the port. The Quebec school was resumed in December, with Captain Napoleon LaChance as instructor, and there has been an average daily attendance of thirteen pupils. The Kingston school was opened on the 14th of December, under the direction of Queens University, with Captain Mac-Master as instructor, and very satisfactory reports have been received respecting this school. The captain examined two candidates for certificates at Kingston on the 3rd instant. During December marine lectures were delivered at Vancouver, Collingwood, North Sydney and Yarmouth by Captains Eddie, 'Cole, Sutherland and Murphy respectively, and there were very fair attendances.
Air. KYTE- What about North Sydney?


John Douglas Hazen: Captain Sutherland reports a fair attendance so far this year.


George William Kyte: How much money has been paid by the Government to the instructor at North Sydney?


John Douglas Hazen: Captain Sutherland receives $250 a year; Captain Murphy, Yarmouth, the same; Captain Cole, at Collingwood, the same.


John Howard Sinclair: I would like to see the minister establish branch schools at points along the coast, because trained seamen are very scarce on the coasts of the Maritime Provinces. It is difficult to secure men to man the vessels there, and some people do not care to go into the shipping business owing to the great difficulty in securing masters and mates who have certificates. My idea is that this branch should be run with a little more vigour, and that points might be selected along the coast where there are numbers of young men engaged in fishing, and where schools might be established. For instance, the late minister furnished some apparatus at Canso a few years ago, and the master of the high school there "undertook to teach the boys navigation. In the winter season, after the month of January, the young fishermen are not very busy, and he had a vigorous class of between forty and fifty doing splendid work, about twice as many as in the city of St. John. I venture to say that there are more sailors at Canso who are prepared to attend a school of this kind and compete for certificates than there are at St. John or Halifax.


John Douglas Hazen: Is the nearest school North Sydney?


John Howard Sinclair: The nearest school is
North Sydney, about one hundred miles away. That is a long distance for the boys to go, and North Sydney is an expensive place to live in. You cannot expect these young men to leave their homes, pay their own expenses, and go to a school in these distant places. It will be a very important step in the right direction if the minister will establish schools at points like Lunenburg, where there must be a large number of young men would attend, and also at Canso, and perhaps at Louisburg. Certainly, in Lunenburg and Canso, there are a number of young men who would like the advantage of a training of this kind. I suggested this to the minister before. The expense would not be great. I do not think it would cost more than $400 in each place to establish a school, which would educate these young men.


John Douglas Hazen: The expense would not be great if we could get suitable instructors.


Mr. TURGEON:: I appreciate very much the remarks of my hon. friend from Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair). The minister knows that in Caraquet there is a fleet of a couple of hundred fishing vessels in which some seven or eight hundred young men learn navigation, as it were by instinct, and become as able as any others simply by following their fathers. A school of the class referred to, if established in Caraquet, would certainly have a large number of pupils. If established in Caraquet, the school would have to be carried on in French, because nearly all those who are inclined to the sea in that portion of the province are French Acadians.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: What advantage do the students get who attend these schools?


John Douglas Hazen: They get instruction in the art of navigation.


Samuel Hughes: What monetary advantage?


John Douglas Hazen: None, they pay their own expenses, but the instruction is free. Then, if they want to get certificates as masters or mates, they can pay the examination fees, and if they are successful certificates are issued. These certificates give the holders of them the right to command vessels.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Are.these examinations held in other places?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Samuel Hughes: I endorse the remarks of the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) and the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Turgeon). In the province of Prince Edward Island there is no such school as is proposed. I brought this matter to the attention of the minister last session. There are a great many young men engaged in fishing in our province, as well as those in other marine occupations, and yet, as the hon. member for Guysborough has said, it is becoming more difficult to find certificated men as masters and mates. Anything that the department can do to increase the number of competent certificated men will be a great advantage to shipping. The need of a school in Charlottetown is shown by the fact that it has been taken up as a private enterprise. The students have not only to pay their own board but pay for their tuition as well. Perhaps the school is not very well equipped. Is equipment given by the department to these schools?


John Douglas Hazen: In addition to these Government schools, there are a number of private schools, some of which have been in operation for years. The policy of the department has always been to interfere as little as possible with these private schools. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes) speaks of the difficulty of finding certificated men, but if he will refer to page 226 of the last report of the Department of Marine he will find a list of certificates of competency issued to masters, mates and sea-going second mates. This list covers eight pages of rather fine print.


Samuel Hughes: How many masters?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot give the number offhand, but I think the hon. gentleman will be surpised if he consults the list to see how large the number is.


Samuel Hughes: The claim made by the
minister-which he made last session also- that the policy of the department is not to interefere with private schools, hardly holds good in the case of Prince Edward Island, because the necessity there, as I have pointed out, has long existed.


John Douglas Hazen: Is there any private school on the Island?	.


Samuel Hughes: Only the one at Charlottetown, and the very existence of that school proves that many wish to get the benefit of this education. I do not want the department to interfere, by establishing a rival school, but a small grant would enable the teacher or teachers in that school to give tuition free, and this would undoubtedly increase the attendance. Those who wish to attend the school at Charlottetown have to leave their homes in Souris, Tignish, Rustico, or other outlying stations, and come to Charlottetown and.pay their board. The minister should take this matter into careful consideration. The province would, I think, be fairly entitled to that much consideration.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall have the greatest pleasure in looking into the matter, and if we find a grievance in Prince Edward Island that should be redressed it will be redressed.


William Pugsley: It will be a small thing, why not do it now?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know how I might be interfering with private enterprise there.


Samuel Hughes: I can assure the minister that if he follows the course I suggest he will not interfere with private enterprise.


John Douglas Hazen: Perhaps we can do something between this and next year. Two years ago the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) pointed out the necessity of having a school somewhere along the Baie des Chaleurs or Gaspe coast in Quebec. He made out such a strong case that I told him I would certainly make arrangements during the year to have instruction given there. I did so, and the school was conducted at Carleton, on the Baie des Chaleurs, during December, 1914, and January, February and March, 1915, ninety-six days in all. The average daily attendance was fouT, the maximum attendance six, and the minimum two. The school was fairly successful, four of the pupils passing for masters of tug-boats, and two for masters of passenger tug-boats on the minor inland waters. Owing to the absence of Captain Landry no steps can be taken to open the school this year. We understand that the desire there now is to have a school for the instruction of engineers for steam vessels, and we are considering that.
My hon. friend from Inverness asked where examinations had to be passed. If at any time we find two or three students at any place desiring to take examinations, say on the coast of Nova Scotia, we do not compel them to go to Halifax, but cause the examiner to go to the town where they are. This avoids putting the candidates to expense.


Samuel Hughes: Was the whole amount voted last year used?


John Douglas Hazen: No. Out of a vote of $8,000 we had used, up to December 31, $2,406.


Samuel Hughes: The minister could certainly take some of that money to implement the school alt Charlottetown and make it more efficient and available for those who wish to take advantage of it. He has the money; I tlhink he is favourably disposed; the cause is a good one, and, as he gave a promise to the hon. member for Bonaventure last year and carried it out, I would ask him to place the province of Prince Edward Island in line with the other provinces.


John Douglas Hazen: I have asked the deputy minister to make a special note with regard to Prince Edward Island, and we shall look into the matter. If conditions exist that make it desirable that there should

be a school of navigation on the island, [DOT]there is no reason why one should not be established there. But I think It will be found that the reason there has not been one on the island is that it might conflict with some other school and perhaps interfere with some legitimate business now [DOT]being carried on in Charlottetown.


Samuel Hughes: I am not asking the minister to interfere with the school already established; I only want him to assist that school and make it more efficient and valuable.


Onésiphore Turgeon: If I make my urgent request for Gloucester, may I have the same assurance as has been given to my hon. friend?


John Howard Sinclair: If I understood the minister, he said that officers of ships were more numerous than we supposed they were. I would be glad to know if that is the case, because it is a general complaint on the coast that it is almost impossible to secure masters and mates for oceangoing and coasting vessels. How many qualified during the past yeaT in all these schools? Is the list to which the minister referred a list of qualified men; when was that list revised, and can the minister assure us that these men are in the country and are available? Very often when these young men get certificates they go to Gloucester or some other American port and secure ships there.


John Douglas Hazen: I did not refer to a general list, but to the number who received, certificates during the year ended 31st March, 1915. It is a long list and will be found at page 226 of the report of the department. 1 do not know how many are available, but there must be a list somewhere showing that.


Mr. MIA CLEAN:: Has there been any change in the law requiring vessels to carry [DOT]mates? What tonnage must a vessel be [DOT]before she is obliged to carry a licensed or certificated mate?


John Douglas Hazen: There has been no change [DOT]in the law. It is more difficult to get certificated mates than to get certificated masters. The owners of coasting vessels [DOT]have made representations urging that they should not have to carry certificated [DOT]mates. That is a burning question with the owners of vessels.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This matter has been discussed annually on this same vote. As the hon. member for Guysborough says,

there is a great shortage in the supply of masters and mates in the Maritime Provinces, especially in Nova Scotia. During the last several years it has been a common things to have ships detained in ports for days, and sometimes for weeks, owing to their inability to get certificated mates. There may be fundamental reasons for this which the Government cannot euTe. It is a fact that in the Maritime Provinces today there is very little shipping owned, beyond the smaller shipping used in the coasting and fishing trades.
Whatever be the cause, it is not possible in the Maritime Provinces to get the same number of qualified masters and mates as one could find a number of years ago. In recent years, in my own province at least, it has become the practice to transfer the registry of ships from Canada to Trinidad, the Barbados, and other British possessions. I think that probably, to-day, with regard to the greater portion of all shipping in Nova Scotia not engaged in the purely coasting or fishing trade, the registration has been transferred to Trinidad and the Barbados, in order, I understand, to escape the necessity of carrying certificated mates. If these vessel owners can do that, anii escape the necessity of carrying certificated mates, there is not much encouragement to young men who purpose pursuing a marine career to obtain their certificates. I think it is also difficult to obtain certificated masters and there is also a great shortage in that respect. I do not object to the establishment of these small schools at any point which needs them. So far they have not been successful. I remember that when I represented the county of Lunenburg a school was started there. For a few weeks there was a very considerable attendance, but in a short, time the school proved a failure and I do not think it has since been resuscitated. That is true regarding a great many other ports in the province. I have frequently said here before that a better way of interesting young men and providing training for a marine career would be to have one central school, where a great number of young men might congregate together, and from the contact and association they would receive new views and wider ambitions. The great trouble about the small school is that the attendance is limited and the advantages are not very great. I remember a number of years ago men Goming from all parts of the province to attend a

private school at Halifax wliich was in existence when I was at college there. I do not think the expense is any impediment whatever to young men desirous of attending these schools.
A likely attendant at a marine school is one who has had some service at sea and he is not the sort of person who is apt to complain about the small cost of attending the school. I do not agree with some of the views presented by my hon. friend from Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes), because you cannot make a marine school with persons who object to making some sort of expenditure towards acquiring his education. I would hardly approve of that, although I should thoroughly approve of assisting a school in any way one possibly could. It may be that the difficulty in getting, in the Maritime Provinces, a sufficient supply of certificated masters and mates is due to our shipping laws of one kind or another and our statutory requirements in respect to masters and mates. Practically all the vessels from western Nova Scotia are registered in Barbados and Trinidad, but if you could avoid that and secure the registration of these vessels at home ports, you might be able to supply the ambition of our young men. This is a matter that requires looking into.


George William Kyte: To what extent are these
certificates recognized by the Board of Trade in England?


John Douglas Hazen: They are recognized by
the Board of Trade absolutely. My hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Maclean) asked me a question as to the tonnage of a vessel engaged in the coasting trade that had to obtain a certificated master and mate. A ship of 150 tons has to have a certificated master to engage in the coasting trade, while a ship of 400 tons and upwards is required to have a certificated master and also a certificated mate.


John Howard Sinclair: In reference to what my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Maclean) has said, really the main reason why vessels are being transferred to Barbados and other colonies is because they are not allowed to clear for distant ports. Most of these vessels over 400 tons require to have masters and mates. The owners of these vessels do not send them to sea without these officers. But the main reason why they seek registration elsewhere is that the customs officer will not allow them to go to
distant places. If a man comes
9 p.m. to clear for the River Plate the Canadian customs officer will tell him that he cannot allow him to go farther than the fifth degree of north latitude. The River Plate at present happens to be the place where the best business is to he obtained, and, therefore, these owners are driven to Barbados to register their ships. I do not want to enter into this question just now. When my Bill is before the House I will give the minister the reasons I have for asking him-to adopt it as a Government measure, which I hope he will do this year.


Samuel Hughes: I cannot see the force of the reasoning of my hon. friend from Halifax. I think he favours the establishment of a large school at Halifax.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Oh, no.


Samuel Hughes: Or at some point in Nova Scotia, but he would not have one at Charlottetown.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Oh, yes.


William Pugsley: I think it was St. John that he had in mind.


Samuel Hughes: That appears strange to
me. I do not see why. The very fact that there is a school at Charlottetown without any assistance shows the advantage and necessity of such an institution. I could not present any stronger argument than that. There must surely be a necessity for it when private enterprise tries to meet the necessity. If the department is encouraging such schools in the other provinces it seems to me that it would be a wise thing to encourage a school where it has already been established and where the facts of its establishment prove the advantage of it. There is another point but I do not know that the time is opportune to discuss it. I, and I presume other hon. members from the Maritime Provinces, get letters from coasting captains and owners complaining of the'privileges that are given to Norwegian and foreign vessels engaged in the coasting trade. They say that our men are at a very great disadvantage. If we buy a vessel, for instance, in Norway, or in any part of the world, and bring it here we have to pay a duty of from 25 to 33 per cent. But the Norwegians can come here in their own vessels. I understand that they fit them out in Norway, where provisions are much cheaper than they are in Canada; they are manned by Norwegians, and the

wages are much lower than in Canada. They come here and are admitted to all the coasting privileges of this country. They carry cargoes from one port to another, competing with our sea-faring men, with the result that complaints are loud and long. I presume that the department is cognizant of these complaints, and perhaps we might as well discuss this matter.


John Douglas Hazen: The matter falls within the control of the Customs Department and not the Marine Department. For a good' many years, since 1904, there has been passed from year to year a regulation allowing vessels of not less than 2,000 tons, owned by Norwegians, and trading between the Maritime Province ports and the ports of Quebec and Montreal, to engage in that business. I am not very familiar with the subject, but I think the regulation was passed for the purpose of enabling the coal owners of Nova Scotia to get their coal to the Montreal market. I have been told, and I think there is a report to that effect, that, if it were not for that privilege accorded to the Norwegians, the coal could not be brought in sufficient quantities to Montreal every year, and the result would be that American coal would have to be brought in to a greater extent than at present to supply the markets of Montreal and the West. The regulation applies, I think, only to vessels over 2,000 tons.


Samuel Hughes: Not to smaller vessels?


John Douglas Hazen: Only to vessels of 2,000 tons and upwards.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The point raised by the hon. member for Kings has suggested another matter to my mind. Whatever there may be in the objection raised to Norwegian shipping, I feel it would be hardly fair to press that objection at the present time, because Canada is suffering from a shortage of shipping in the province of Nova Scotia. There is really a coal famine in many parts of the province, despite the fact that we live in a province no part of which is far removed from a coal field, and that is due to a lack of shipping.


John Douglas Hazen: I understand it was partly due to a shortage of miners in Cape Breton.


Mr. MACLEIN:: it was due to the great demand for coal, and to the fact that it was impossible to obtain sufficient shipping. There is a coal famine in the Island of Newfoundland because it is impossible to get shipping. I have in mind a place west of Halifax where the people 
were obliged to do absolutely without coal during the present winter. If the coal was available at the collieries, the shipping was not available, and the coal could not be taken there by rail. This condition is very liable to recur next year, because the demand for coal will be greater than the capacity of the mines to supply it. The available shipping will not be greater, but in all likelihood it will he less. Is it not possible that this fleet of steamers, to maintain which we pay $1,250,000, could be available in the fall of the year, after the services .of the department have been completed, for the carriage of coal to certain sections of the country. I do not know whether that is practicable. It may be that the department is allowing steamers to lie in the River St. Lawrence all winter that could be made useful, perhaps not for the purpose I have mentioned, but for other purposes. There is a tremendous shortage of shipping in the Maritime Provinces during all seasons of the year. At all events, that was the ease last year, and I believe it will be more severe next year. If there are any ships of the Marine Department laid up in the river St. Lawrence during the winter, could they not he transferred to -the Maritime Provinces late in the fall, so as to have them available if needed.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think that any of these vessels would be suitable for carrying coal. As my hon. friend knows, they are not large vessels; they have been built for the purpose of putting out and taking up buoys, taking supplies to the different lighthouses, and doing that class of work. I doubt whether any of them are capable of being used as colliers. There are not many of them lying in the St. Lawrence. Take the Arramore, for instance. That boat is in Halifax during the winter months doing work in that neighbourhood, and most of our boats are well employed. They have to be repaired and overhauled annually, and as a rule they are kept pretty busy. For coal carrying purposes large dead weight boats are necessary. Some of the Government vessels carry coal to the lighthouses, but I do not think they could relieve the situation to which my hon. friend refers. If I understand him correctly, his view agrees with the idea that in order to get the coal away from the Nova Scotia ports to the ports of the St. Lawrence it is necessary to allow these Norwegian vessels to carry it. If that ser-

vice were cut off, there would be a shortage of the coal supply in Montreal, and the price would advance-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is a difference ot opinion about that. My own view is that this is not the proper time to press the objection raised by the hon. member for Kings, because the coal companies of Nova Scotia have great difficulty in supplying the demands along the St. Lawrence. In fact they cannot do it, and I am afraid they will not be able to do it for several years. Has the Government had under consideration during the past year the idea of supplying some marine tonnage in Canada, or of encouraging it by advancing money for the construction of vessels or otherwise? Canadian trade is liable to suffer immensely in the future by reason of lack of tonnage. The destruction of the world's tonnage during the past 18 months has been enormous, and it will probably be at least ten years before the tonnage destroyed can be restored. In Canada we depend entirely upon the exports of the products of the mines, the forests, the sea and the land. We cannot import anything unless we export, and it is absolutely necessary that we should he secured in the possession of tonnage sufficient to carry these exports. The minister has already stated that he has made arrangements with the Admiralty to secure tonnage, particularly for the carriage of munitions of war.
France has undertaken to advance money to persons who are willing to buy ships, or to have them constructed, and I think the Government of Canada might do well to consider giving assistance of this kind. I do not know what conditions are like on the Pacific, but there is no doubt at all that a certain extra amount of tonnage on the Atlantic might be the salvation of Canadian trade. But this must not be left till too late; it must be done at the proper time. I should like to hear from the minister whether the Government has had this matter under consideration.


John Douglas Hazen: I know my hon. friend would not expect me to tell him in detail just what has been discussed in connection with this matter between the members of the Cabinet. I may say, however, that the subject to which he refers has received the very serious consideration and attention of the Government. There are certain difficulties in the way, however. My hon. friend is no doubt right in saying that we may, suffer in the future from lack of tonnage.
That is true of all countries in the world.
I am told that a very unfortunate state of affairs exists at present in Australia and New Zealand on account of the difficulty they have in getting ships to carry away the wool, and it is not only unfortunate for Australia and New Zealand, but for the other countries that use the wool, and for ' the countries whose mills manufacture it.
I may say that since I spoke on this subject during the debate on the Address the Admiralty have furnished us with. more transports. At the present time fifty-three transports are assigned to the Atlantic trade. I get returns every morning, and I find that nearly every morning there are six or seven transports at Halifax, and five, six or seven at St. John-usually from twelve to fourteen boats at the two ports. At the present moment those transports are taking away Canadian goods-munitions of war, hay, oats, etc.-as fast, and I am inclined to think a little faster than the railways are able to get them to the ports of Halifax and St. John. At the present f,ime, therefore, there is little disturbance of Canadian trade on account of lack of tonnage, but I quite agree that disturbance may come in the future. There is, of course, a great deal less tonnage than before the war broke out. Many ships have been either destroyed, interned, or assigned to naval purposes. In regard to my hon. friend's suggestion that people should be encouraged to increase the tonnage of our country, I may say that at the present time people are not disposed to put their money very largely into ships. The expense of building is very great and the cost of the raw material is very high. On the otheT hand, freights are exceedingly high, but there is great uncertainty how long that may continue. Of course, I am not in a position to give any detailed statement to the House on this question, but I may say that negotiations have been going on, and much correspondence has taken place.


William Pugsley: Perhaps my hon. friend can tell us how it is that Japan is going ahead with enormous rapidity in the building of a mercantile marine. All the shipyards in Japan, the newspapers inform us, are busy night and day turning out ships. Thousands of men are engaged in the work. But here in Canada, with vast supplies to send across the Atlantic, we are doing 'absolutely nothing 'along that line. Our people, I regret to siay, are receiving absolutely no, encouragement from the Govern-

ment to go on with ship building. Friamce has given encouragement, with a view to increasing her mercantile marine for the purpose of enabling products of other countries to be brought to France more cheaply than would otherwise be the case. To-day the people of Canada, and those who consume Canadian goods, are paying on an average one thousand per cent more [DOT] than what is reasonable-one thousand per cent more than was paid before the war broke out.


John Douglas Hazen: That is true of other countries besides Canada.


William Pugsley: But, other countries are trying to make good the deficiency. They are trying to build up a carrying trade themselves. Japan is doing wonderful work in that direction. Here in Canada it seems to me that our mercantile marine is simply going to destruction; it is gradually growing less and less, and no encouragement at all is being given.


John Douglas Hazen: The main trouble is that our regular lineis on the Atlantic and Pacific have been commandeered by the Admiralty.


William Pugsley: They are not Canadian ships.


John Douglas Hazen: The Canadian Pacific Railway-


William Pugsley: Those are British ships.


John Douglas Hazen: But they are owned in Canada.


William Pugsley: They are built under circumstances and under laws which give to the British shipbuilder an enormous advantage over the Canadian shipbuilder. Those ships enter our ports without paying any duty. They come into Canada without paying one single cent into the treasury. On the other hand, a shipbuilder in Canada must pay an enormous duty on a vast number of articles . which go into the building of ships. If a Canadian shipbuilder wants to build a sailing vessel and operate it by means of auxiliary power, be has to pay an enormous duty on the machinery required to secure that power.


John Douglas Hazen: The Canadian shipbuilder gets a large rebate on most of the material that goes into the construction of a ship. Does my hon. friend suggest that we should place a duty on ships from Great Britain- ships that come here flying the British flag?	I | ,:


William Pugsley: Gentlemen on this side of the House might hesitate to advocate general protection, but surely hon. gentle. men opposite, who impose a very high protective duty against almost every other class of people in Canada, ought not to hesitate to give some encouragement to the building of ships in this country. One would think it would not be straining their conscience too much, or trespassing too much on their good judgment, if they were to move along these lines. As a representative of a Maritime province, I desire to say that there is no interest in Canada which is more deserving of encouragement than ship building. It would probably not be necessary to impose a very heavy duty, but surely it would not be unreasonable for the Government to give some encouragement by way of a bonus to encourage the building of ships. It is not absolutely necessary to go into the building of steel ships. Wooden vessels could be constructed, and would be able to do good work in the carrying trade. My hon. friend says the matter is under consideration. He makes , the same objection that the Minister of Trade and Commerce made the other day, namely, that the war may end very suddenly,' and that the people are not willing to go into this business. Should an argument like that influence the Government of this country? Surely it is of enormous importance that Canadian products-Canadian wheat, Canadian cattle, Canadian pulp and lumber-should be taken across the Atlantic and to our allies as cheaply as possible, and that this enormously heavy rate, which is a thousand times greater than it ought to be, should be done away with. Yet the Government, although the war has been going oh now for about eighteen months, has done absolutely nothing and the minister tells this committee just what the Minister of Trade and Commerce stated the other night, that the matter is under consideration, but that there are serious difficulties in the way. This Government should go ahead in the wiay of encouraging shipbuilding irrespective of whether this war may last for one year or for ten years. They should look ahead and seek to relieve the-situation by fostering a shipbuilding industry in Canada. There are splendid opportunities on both oceans; we have plenty of men who understand everything about shipbuilding; we have some of the finest ship-carpenters in the world, and we know that, in the past, when we were building wooden ships, the ships of Canada were found on every sea and bore the palm away from the

ships of any other country. If there was sufficient encouragement we could build ships in Canada, and now is the time when we may reasonably look forward to this as there will be an enormous demand for shipping for a good many years to come. We ought to take hold of the matter seriously and see if shipbuilding cannot be so encouraged that it may be undertaken in earnest on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. I do not mention this simply with the idea of bringing my views before the House in order to get them on Hansard, but I do it most sincerely and earnestly in the hope that my hon. friend who presides over the Department of Marine and Fisheries, which is peculiarly charged with this matter, who represents a maritime constituency and a city which used to be one of the great shipowninig cities in the world; a city where they used to build ships by the score and by the hundred, may take it up and press it upon his colleagues, and see that some action is taken in the immediate future, so that we may not come back next session and be told that the matter is still under consideration and that there are still difficulties in the way.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I fear we never
can become a great shipbuilding country while we have the present tariff fates, because so long as Brutish shipbuilders can build ships from 35 to 50 per cent below what we can construct them for in Canada, there is very little prospect for the construction of ships in Canada to any great extent. Further, I think the ownership of shipping and engagement in shipping is preliminary to the construction of ships in any country. The important thing, however, for Canada to-day is to own ships and this would be a very opportune time to encourage the early acquisition of shipping and that can be helped by removing the duty, which I understand is 25 per cent, Canadian interests might buy some ships abroad from neutral nations during the next few years and if that is possible, there is no reason in the world why a tariff of 25 or 35 per cent should be imposed. We want some changes in the tariff immediately to encourage the purchase of ships.


Mr. EDWARDS:: In the remarks of the
two hon. gentlemen who have just preceded me we have an example of that delightful unanimity which prevails so frequently on the other side of the- House. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugs-ley) almost announced himself as a protectionist 'along shipbuilding lines, while the hon, junior member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) considers that an impossibility, under existing conditions of shipbuilding in the old land with which we could not expect to compete. However, it was not to criticise the remarks of these two hon. gentlemen that I rose to speak. Speaking entirely for myself, because this is a forum where I presume we have the right to express our own viewis whether they have any value or not, I cannot see any reason why a country like Canada, which owns railway lines like the Intercolonial, which takes the money of the country to equip and operate those lines, should not also own and operate steamship lines. The difficulty of the transportation of wheat from the West to the markets of the world would be largely overcome if the Government would spend some millions of dollars in building and operating lines of wheat freighters which would guarantee to the farmers of the West that their wheat would be carried to the markets of the world at the lowest possible cost. Not only would we be justified in doing that by reason of the benefit that would accrue to the growers of wheat in the West, but it would necessarily mean that, instead of about 40 per cent of our surplus wheat leaving Canada by Canadian ports and the other 60 per cent by American ports, a very much larger proportion would go over Canadian railways to Canadian ports. I agree with the remarks of the hon. junior member for Halifax. I believe this is the time when we should boldly launch out towards owning our own ships, and spend a large amount of money, if necessary, in building vessels to carry our produce across the ocean. The United States has never been a maritime country; it has never purchased a large merchant marine and it does not look as if it ever would, and after this war is over, it seems to me there is going to be a magnificent opportunity for Canada to launch out into something big along the lines of a merchant marine. As a man from one of the older provinces, I believe that the country would be warranted in taking steps along that line. It seems to me that the result would be wonderfully advantageous to the producers of wheat in the Western provinces.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: This problem is not one for the Maritime Provinces, it is really a national problem. Every acre of land that is brought under cultivation

in the West, and every additional hundred bushels of wheat produced, makes greater the necessity for action in regard to this matter. Of what use to us as a nation are the three great transcontinental lines now practically in operation from sea to sea if, when we reach the seaboard on the Atlantic or the Pacific, there is no tonnage to carry our products except what is 'beyond the control of the Canadian people? When our friends in the West, of both political parties, say that grievances exist; that there is discrimination in ocean freights; and that the Western farmers have suffered because of the failure to transport products, there can be no manner of doubt that there is some basis for what they say. But I am not sure that our friends from the West quite grasp the situation as it exists in the Maritime Provinces. Thirty-five years ago, the foreign trade of Canada was almost exclusively carried by ships owned and built in Canada. Before the decay of the industry in wooden vessels, the tonnage of Canada upon the sea was greater per capita than that of lany nation in the world1-greater than that of England herself. After the disappearance of wooden vessels, there came an interim in which 'the carrying trade fell largely into the bands of Great Britain andi Norway. The Norwegians purchased the old Canadian wooden vessels, and by rigid lowering of expenses were able to operate them at rates below those asked by others. Now the question arises whether our internal development is to be hampered and interfered with by the possibility of lack of tonnage on the sea. That condition arose quite apart from the war. Last year we had an abnormally large crop, but even if the war had not interfered, as it has to a great degree, with the handling of that crop upon the ocean, there would be discontent and trouble probably just the same. Every year, as our production increases, there is great discontent in Canada over this question. Now, we have three propositions in this matter. The proposition of the hon. member for Prontenac (Mr. Edwards) is that Canada should own and control a mercantile marine. That is very similar to the proposition advanced by President Wilson last year in the message to the United States Senate, in which he proposed that the nation should purchase a very large number of vessels as a means of solving the problem which exists in that country. That proposition did not pass the 
Congress of the United States. The tremendous extent of our territory, and the fact that the greater number of our people are not familiar with maritime affairs, surrounds the question with a great many difficulties, as the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will see. When the hon. member for Halifax (Mr- Maclean) speaks of Canada owning a mercantile marine, I take it, he does not speak of it in the same sense as does the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards). What he means is that Canadians individually should develop and own a mercantile marine. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Maclean) points out that on account of tariff conditions there are difficulties in the way of vessel construction. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley), as I understand him, proposes to solve the problem by giving a bonus to those who will engage in the building of ships in Canada. These three honourable gentlemen, like everyone in Canada who has considered this problem, realize its significance and the necessity of some solution being found. We have been going on for twenty-five years considering whether we should subsidize this railway or bonus that one, until we have a great network of railways throughout Canada. But these will be of no value if their freights cannot be taken beyond the shores of Canada. That something must be done is recognized. I hope the Government will not deal with this question by appointing a commission to look into it. These commissions to deal with matters that the Government itself ought to deal with do not facilitate progress. The problem can be solved, and solved in the interests of the Canadian people. I come from a constituency in which steel vessels have been built without ,a bonus and in spite of tariff difficulties. At this moment you cam build vessels in Canada of steel, equal to those which come from the Clyde. We forget that the only reason why we did not begin to build steel vessels to replace the wooden vessels twenty-five years ago is that we had no steel industry in Canada. At that time we had no industry that could roll a steel rail or east a steel ingot, much less roll steel plates for building vessels. It is only within the 'last ten or fifteen years that that industry has arisen. Today we have many places where steel plates are rolled. Once you have the -steel plates the matter of putting them together is a very small problem. The proposition is one that requires consideration and the in-

auguration of a policy on broad lines. If there are conditions in the tariff which prevent development of the industry, amend the tariff. Let us not bandy words about our old differences with regard to free trade and protection, but come down to practical lines and assist in the establishing of an industry that is absolutely essential. We talk of the prosperity of the steel industry in this country. Why is it prosperous? Simply because the mills are rolling steel ingots' to be turned into shells, while another shop takes that ingot and carries on the manufacture to the completion of the article in the form of a shell. But some day this shell production is going to stop, and when it stops the steel industry of this country will have nothing to do so far as one can see under existing conditions. The construction of the transcontinental railway lines provided employment for the men engaged in the steel business for a long period of years. We cannot look forward to further large railway construction. The men engaged in 'the steel industry in this country will tell you that they are prepared to roll the steel necessary for the construction of vessels. Some plan ought to be devised by this Government-and I am not speaking at all in a spirit of partisanship-that would remove the existing difficulties, the nature of which could easily be ascertained upon inquiry, providing for the disappearance from the tariff of those things that interfere with the industry, and providing, by a bonus if you will, as is done in other countries, for the inauguration of the building of vessels. The question is one which can not be settled haphazard, but the Government, or any minister devoting his time and attention to it, could develop a policy within a very short time which would mean that something could be done to create in Canada a steel shipbuilding industry and bring about the construction of vessels which are absolutely essential to the future of Canada.
. This discussion is one which has taken a wide range, but the opportunity has not come hitherto this session, and I think that, the question having been discussed along this line, every hon. gentleman can see that the situation which exists is one that ought to be remedied. Let me reiterate this fact, that the condition is not one which has been precipitated by the war. Those of us who live down by the sea, when we see vessels going out from our ports, know that if this war had never occurred the difficulty would 45
have existed just the same, and that it h.is been increasing year by year. We know that the revenues of the Minister of Railways and Canals have been diminished in the past because there have been no vessels to take tthe products carried over the Government road. The situation as put by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) is absolutely correct. Millions of tons of Canadian products and freight pass through American seaports, and have been passing for the last ten or fifteen years in increasing quantities, simply because Canada has stood still on the question of marine construction. That condition will continue increasingly to exist, and will become very much more acute unless the Government deal with the question. The Minister of Railways and Canals is interested in this problem quite as much as the Minister of Marine is. We have two great transcontinental railway systems passing through Canadian territory, and we are looking for the time when the other will find an outlet through Canadian territory to the Atlantic, just as it already has to the West, and, as a patriotic people, we are hoping for the time when Canada will send her own products over her own roads down to the seaboard, ship them through our own ports, and carry them in our own bottoms across the sea.
Canada can never reach the point which we are all so ambitious to see her attain; she will never have that forceful place in the Empire, until we show that at our own steel works we can do what the men in the Clyde are doing, until we show to the whole world that we can do that which any other part of the British Empire can do. I have heard h,on. gentlemen tell us that you cannot do this because they are doing it in some other country. Everybody in these strenuous times is beginning to realize that we Canadians do not need to take off our hats to the men of any other nation or of any other part of the Empire whether it is in fighting or in industry. Canadians can do anything in an industrial way that is done by any other nation. Who would have thought a year and a half ago that every wheel in every iron shop in this country would be turning, that every lathe would be at work, producing shells for the war? Did anybody think that we could produce shells? Yet all of our industries are busy, all our workmen are engaged day by day at that industry. They told us that we could not make shells in 1914 and some people say that we cannot build ships. The



men who are turning out shells to-day can produce the steel plates that are used in the construction of modern steel ships, and they can rivet these plates together just as well as men who happened to be bom on the banks of the Clyde, or at Newcastle-on-Tyne, or anywhere in France or Germany.
Look at the question in the broad way, and what is the problem? You can assist or impede the development of an industry by questions of tariff and by other elements which must be taken into consideration. You must remember also that the inauguration of an industry has to take place. It is insulting to the intelligence and the capacity of our people to say that we cannot do this, because we can. All the rest is a matter of governmental action and governmental assistance along such lines as experience and wisdom may dictate. Let the Government devote their energy, attention and ability to the consideration of this whole question so that they may be in a position to formulate a policy which they can place before the Canadian people entirely apart from anything like narrow or partisan lines. I feel satisfied that the Government that would propound such a policy would receive the support of all patriotic Canadians irrespective of party.	'[DOT]


John Gillanders Turriff: I quite agree with
some of the remarks made by my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), and with that one in particular to the effect that all the money that we have put into railways during past years, amounting to probably over one thousand ' million dollars, will be, to a large extent, unproductive, unless some better system of handling the crops that these railways handle shall be adopted in the future than in the past. I would like to point out that the excess freight rates charged on the 1915 crop of wheat grown in western Canada will amount to between 340,000,000 and $50,000,000, and that for carrying the wheat across the water, it will cost between $30,000,000 and $40,000,000 this year more than it would have cost previous to the war. Even if it costs something to secure a proper supply of bottoms to take the products of Canada across the water we can afford to pay something to have that done. But the question really resolves itself into what is the best way of handling this problem. Last year when the matter of granting a new charter to the Canadian Pacific Steamship Company-a subsidiary company to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the vessels all being owned by the Can-
[Mr. Macdonald. 1
adian Pacific railway-was up, some of us endeavoured to have the Government take power to control the rates on these vessels. The Minister of Railways could not see it in that light; he could not see that he had any power to control the rates on the ocean. It seems very strange to me that if the Canadian Pacific railway can carry wheat from the western provinces to Montreal, St. John, or Halifax at the same rate that they charged two or three years ago, it should be necessary, the moment that wheat. strikes tide water this year, for them to charge five, six and seven times as much as they did previously. How are we going to get a remedy? Is it going to be by following the suggestion of my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley), that the Canadian Government could build and own the ships, or by following the suggestion of my hon. friend from Pictou that subsidies should be granted to secure the building of ships, or by so arranging the tariff that the ships will be built? I do not know which of these proposals would be the best, but I want to say that in the United States, under a heavy protective tariff, they have struggled for the last fifty years to build ships, and, they have not done it, and can not do it. My idea is that if you want to build ships to carry the grain products of Canadian farms from this continent to the European market, you do not have to build Government ships, and you do not have to pay a great big bonus to the Canadian Pacific railway or to the Allan line or to any otheT company, to build ships. You do not have to give great big subsidies to the steamship lines. What you want to do is to take the duties off the products, to make the building of ships cheap, to follow the example of Great Britain. How does Great Britain manage to have such fleets on every one of the seven seas? Simply because she frames her own laws so that the ships can be built cheaply and run cheaply. We in Canada have followed the opposite course and now we are up against a wall, and a remedy must be found. I do not know how that remedy will be found, but I am absolutely satisfied that the best remedy that could be found would be to take off the duties, to make the' material that goes into your ships cheap, and then you would find, as the hon. member for Pictou said, that you have the men in Canada, that there is the money in Canada, that would produce these ships and carry the produce of the country to the markets of the world

at a proper price, so that the farmer would get a reasonable price for growing the products. To my mind that would be a much better way than either to build Government ships or to subsidize privately owned ships. If you build Government ships, and I think we can build them-I do not at all agree with the Prime Minister when he said that we could not build ships in Canada in fifty years. We can build them to-day and to-morrow.


William Cameron Edwards: The Prime Minister
never said anything of the kind.


John Gillanders Turriff: I sat in the House of Commons and heard the Prime Minister say in 1911-12 that you could not build a navy in Canada in 25 or 50 years.


William Cameron Edwards: That is entirely different from your first position. You were in power for fifteen years and did not make much of a start at them.


Mr. PARDEE:: You are a small Canadian.


John Gillanders Turriff: We can build ships in Canada to-day, and we have
10 p.m. proven it time and again. We have built ships on the Great Lakes, some of them larger than many that cross the ocean, and we would build them to-day if the tariff was so arranged that they could be built profitably. Why are they not built? Simply because it is not profitable to build them.


Angus Alexander McLean: Where would you get the material?


John Gillanders Turriff: I understand from the
hon. member for Pictou that they can roll plates and all sorts of steel that goes into a ship down in Nova Scotia. My hon. friend comes from a province very close to Nova Scotia and he may have heard that there is an iron and steel works in Sydney.


Angus Alexander McLean: The hon. member said that the United States does not build its ships and never will. They produce everything which goes into a ship. Why then are they not able to build the ships as well as in England?


John Gillanders Turriff: I told the hon. gentleman why they have not been able to do so. It is 'because they have a high protective tariff and the ships cost so much that they cannot compete with Great Britain with her low tariff.


Angus Alexander McLean: But they produce
everything that goes into the ship, and
45i
there is no tariff on what they put into, the ship.


John Gillanders Turriff: They produce everything that goes into the ship, but the tariff on the material going into the ship is so high that it enables the home manufacturer to charge a price which makes the completed ship cost so much that it cannot carry freight at a profit. And that accounts to a large extent for our not having ships. Then the United States coasting laws prohibit foreign ships from coming in and carrying freight from one port to another. That accounts for the United States not having a mercantile marine and it accounts for Canada not having a proper mercantile marine. We built ships when wooden ships were in vogue, and now that steel ships are altogether in use we could make steel ships; but you have to make the conditions such that men with capital will see a fair return for the capital if they put it into ships.


William Cameron Edwards: Is there a protective tariff on the products of the steel company at Sydney?


John Gillanders Turriff: There is a protective tariff on a large amount-


William Cameron Edwards: Will you take it off?


John Gillanders Turriff: -of the steel that is manufactured in Canada.


William Cameron Edwards: Would you take it off? You want things free; now would you take it off?


John Gillanders Turriff: My bon. friend is asking
fOT-[DOT]


William Cameron Edwards: He wont say he will take it off.


John Gillanders Turriff: If the hon. member will keep quiet a moment he will get his answer. I would'take it off and I would take it off everything else. You cannot corner me on taking off duties-


William Cameron Edwards: It is not necessary; you will comer yourself.


John Gillanders Turriff: -you lose every time you try.


William Cameron Edwards: The hon. gentleman corners himself.	,


John Gillanders Turriff: Of course I am quite ready to take off any duties. The Government consult the steel people as to whether duties will be taken off or put on. and go largely by what the steel people

say. But they will not do that with us in the West; when we ask the Government to take the duty off our product the Government will not even take off the duty that the people ivho produce the goods ask to have removed.


William Cameron Edwards: They are wise.


John Gillanders Turriff: I would be glad to have all duties taken off. But to return to the question.


John Douglas Hazen: The question is navigation schools.


John Gillanders Turriff: I know, but the hon.
gentleman took this opportunity of discussing the general question, and now we are discussing the question of ships, which has something to do with navigation, and navigation schools have something to do with training officers for the ships- We must have the ships. We must have some better methods than we have to-day for carrying the products of the Canadian farm across to the . markets of the world. The question is how best to accomplish that. That is not for me to decide, but for hon. gentlemen on the Government benches. The Minister of Railways last year would not agree to control the freight rates on the ocean vessels. Now, since he would not agree to do that, and this year the prices are up five hundred fold and more, I think it is up to my hon. friends the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Marine, if they will not agree to control the rates on the ocean, to devise some other method by which the products of the Canadian farm can be put on the markets of the world without having to pay two, or three, or four, or five, or six times an ordinary freight rate. Until we can do that we will not have accomplished our duty, in this House. We are here to legislate for the people of Canada, and, speaking for one class alone, the wheat growers, the farmers of the three Prairie provinces, I say that this year they will pay over $40,000,000 more than the ordinary freight rate for the shipment of their grain across the water. If that is the case, if on one crop we pay an extra $40,000,000, that calls for a remedy of some kind; and it is up t,o the gentlemen sitting on the treasury benches to provide some better method than exists at present for getting the Canadian crop to the markets of the world.


Mr. MIDDLEBRO:: Some time ago I had the honour of attending a banquet of master shipbuilders and master mariners

on the Great Lakes, and the shipbuilders' complaint was that they had not any protection in Canada, with the result that the ship building industry had not proceeded along progressive lines commensurate with the general prosperity of the country. I think we must ail agree that in future years the great prosperity of Canada will depend largely on its export of its agricultural products, and when we consider that this year we had something 'like 376,000,000 bushels of wheat grown in the great Northwest and that sixty per cent of that was shipped by other than Canadian vessels, I think it does indicate that we should take some stepS towards a regeneration of our ocean traffic- Something like one thousand million bushels of wheat and coarse grains were grown in the West this year. What is the use of our having a hopper of that dimension in the Northwest, filled with grain which we cannot consume in this country, unless we have a spout sufficiently large to take care of it? That spout, it seems to me, must be enlarged either by granting bonuses to encourage ship building or by building ships for ourselves, or in some other way increasing the freight accommodation on the ocean.
There is another point in connection with that, and it is that we have, practically speaking, no control over the rates on wheat or other agricultural products from Canada to Great Britain. While we have control over the rates on the railways, we have no control over the through rate; we have no control over rates outside the Dominion of Canada. If we had the control, either by ownership, or by a subsidy, we would virtually have control of the wheat from the great western country to the British market. As you all know, the consumption of wheat in Great Britain this year amounts to something like 485,000,000 bushels. I see no reason why we should not supply every part of that demand, because we are nearer to Great Britain than the Argentine Republic. The freight rate from the Argentine to Great Britain js about 80 cents, while it is 35 cents or 40 cents from Canada. We should, therefore, take advantage of the shorter distance, and there is no reason why we should not supply the greater part, if not all, of the wheat required in Great Britain. I do not know- whether my hon. friend from Assini-boia (Mr. Turriff) is .quite accurate when he speaks of $40,000,000 that could be saved. It may be so, because we have a product of 367,000,000 bushels of wheat, and while we will not export it all, nevertheless the price

of the wheat will be determined by our ability to export our surplus. If we have 367,000,000 bushels in Canada, and increase the price 10 cents, by extra facilities on the ocean that would be a saving of $37,000,000. These figures warrant us in at least attempting to make some provision for our great export in the future. In times of peace we are told we should prepare for war, and in times of war we should prepare for peace. We are expecting a great influx of immigrants after the war is over. Perhaps we will not have such a large influx as some people imagine, because I believe that in the reconstruction of Europe after the war a great many people will be required. Besides, we will not have so many able-bodied men in the country then as we have to-day. Nevertheless, it is admitted by the statesmen of Great Britain that there will be considerable emigration. I noticed that Mr. Bonar Law, in a recent speech, said that there would naturally be a great influx of immigrants to Canada after the war. For the reasons I have submitted, I think it is imperative upon the Government to take some steps along the line of increasing the facilities for exporting our agricultural products. My hon. friend from Assiniboia stated that the United States were not able to build steamships in competition with Great Britain. I understand there is a Bill now before Congress granting $50,000,000 for the purpose of assisting shipbuilding. My hon. friend also stated that the reason why ships were not built in Canada was/because they could not be built as cheaply as elsewhere. If it is not profitable to build ships in Canada, then the only way in which to make it profitable is to give some encouragement.


John Gillanders Turriff: Take the duties off.


William Sora Middlebro: You cannot take the duties off, because British ships can come in, but you can give protection to the shipbuilding industry just the same as to any other industry. I do not know which would be the better way, whether to build the ships ourselves and put them on the ocean, thereby regulating the traffic, or whether to give a subsidy; but if we can increase the facilities, increase the capacity of the spout I am certain we will go a long way towards solving the difficulties which the farmers experience in the West.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend seems to speak with authority and knowledge. He said that we might control rates by subsidizing the vesse ,s. Did I understand him ter say that?


William Sora Middlebro: Yes.


William Pugsley: Well, then, will my hon. friend explain how it is that the steamship lines which to-day are receiving a very large subsidy from this Government-one company receiving as much as $1,000,000 a year-are, as I am informed, charging the same high rates as the unsubsidized companies, and are allowed iby the Government to do so.


William Sora Middlebro: The conditions to/
day are abnormal over the whole world. They are paying 80 cents a bushel for taking wheat from the Argentine to Liverpool, while we are paying 40 cents a bushel from Canada. The conditions are abnormal because of the scarcity of ships due to the war, and to the fact that many ships are engaged on behalf of the Admiralty.


William Pugsley: But does not my hon.
friend see that the very object, or what ought to be the object, of subsidizing a line of steamers from Canada would be to ensure reasonable rates at all times? What is there to warrant these steamship companies which receive a subsidy from this Government, in the case of one company to the extent of $1,000,000 ia year, raising their rates from $800 to $1,000 per cent, or to warrant this Government permitting them to do so?


William Sora Middlebro: My hon. friend
knows quite well that the subsidy which is granted to these steamship companies is not for the purpose of facilitating the carriage of freight, but to facilitate the carriage of mail, and the subsidy is comparatively small. That is not the kind of subsidy to which I refer. I have in mind a substantial subsidy to ocean-going ships that would enable us to control the rates upon freight of all kinds, and particularly upon wheat.


John Howard Sinclair: This is such an important discussion that to enable all those who desire to speak upon it, members will have to express their views briefly. It is really the greatest question that is before the Canadian people to-day. I have no faith in Government-owned steamships. I do not believe that the traffic would be satisfactorily handled by steamships owped by the Government. My hon. friend from North Grey (Mr. Middlebrol mentioned that the condition on the freight market today is abnormal, and that is true. When you

go back a few years you find that the -rates for carrying wheat from Montreal were practically down to five cents a bushel, and at New York the rate was about one penny half-penny per bushel. Steamers even carried wheat oveT as ballast, and brought it back again without waiting to discharge it. In those days, wheat was a drug on the market, and the shipowners were not making very -much money. But now the business has -changed, and the rates are enormously high, largely owing to the war. If you took -an average of ten or fifteen years you would find perhaps that the Government would not make very much money in running the business. The Government never -can run a business as economically and successfully as private enterprise, I am not arguing that the Government should do- nothing. I think they should do something. I think the time has come when this matter ought to be dealt with in some practical -manner. A number of proposals have been made to the minister, and I -think that some of them are practical proposals. What we want to do with the shipowner is to get off his -back, and let him have a fair chance at the business. There -are -too many restric

tions at present. In Canada we have been constantly piling on restrictions. Any one who reads the Canadian Shipping Act will see that they stick out on every page, restrictions in regard to the manning of the ships, to the inspection of the ships, and so on. The great question is the cost of building. It has been stated here tonight, -and i-t is quite true, that the high cost is largely owing to the high tariff we have in this country. When this question was up some years ago, I took the trouble to make some inquiries as to the extra cost of building ships in Canada compared with that of building them in Great Britain. It is true that a -certain number of articles that enter into the construction of a ship were admitted free, the plates, for example, and a few other things; but a large number	of the articles -are
subject to a high protective tariff.
* Some time ago I took the trouble of going to Collingwood to find out how much duty was paid by shipbuilders in that part oi Canada, on the r-aw material entering into *the construction- of a ship. While there I was allowed to look at the books of the largest shipbuilding firm in the town. 1 made an abstract of the figures, and my recollection is that it averaged something like flO on every ton of shipping; a very 
high tax indeed. Many articles imported into this country for use in the construction of a ship are subject to a very high duty. The consequence is that the price of the ship is increased. A proposal that was made at that time was that the duty should be returned to the shipbuilder when he turned out the finished -product. A man who builds ia hinder in this country and sells it in the United States, or any other outside market, gets -a rebate from the customs of ninety-nine per cent of the duty paid on the raw material entering into the binder. The same thing is true with regard to boilers engines, and ail kinds of agricultural machinery. Why should we not apply this principle to ships? When a ship is launched on the sea, it is an export. It has to compete with the whole world for business. If there is a cargo to carry it is chalked up on the blackboard at Lloyds, London, or at some other exchange, and the whole shipping tonnage of the world bids for it. The man who bids the lowest gets the cargo. Now, a man who has to pay $10 a ton more for his ship on account of duty cannot compete for the business. Shipping is like everything else: you have to get a return on your capital. If there is anything that ought to -be regarded as an export it is a completed ship. I think a Canadian-built ship should be treated just as we treat boilers, and binders, and other implements that are made .in this country and exported. This is a practical proposal. It is one which could be carried out, and without injury to anybody. I do not see what possible objection, could be made to it. The question of tonnage is a serious one, and it is going to be more serious as years go by. I do not -see why this matter should not he dealt with at the present session, and I trust the minister will bring the matter before his colleagues and -try and get something done.
The United States has been referred to. Everybody knows that the United States has not been able to build up a mercantile marine, and everybody who thinks about the matter knows that it is in a very large degree due to the high protective tariff. But even the United States has made a move in the direction of building up a mercantile marine. Only last year they struck the tariff off. Here in Canada you cannot buy a ship. If a man wants to puL his capital into the shipping business, he is not' allowed to go -out into the world and buy a ship and register it in this country unless he pays a high protective duty.

Since last July or August, when the new regulations came into effect in the United States, there has been an enormous increase in American tonnage. Since the American Government decided to allow ships to be bought and registered in the United States, under the American flag without the payment of duty, the people of the United States have bought no less than fourteen vessels that were registered in Canada. I understand that at the present time they cannot buy any more Canadian vessels, because our Government have passed an Order in Council prohibiting the sale of Canadian vessels to any foreign country. I think that was a very proper step to take, and I hope the regulation will he kept in effect during the war. At the same time it would not be. a proper regulation to have in force in time of peace.
I have made two practical proposals: one is to put a ship on the same basis as a manufactured article, and allow a rebate on the raw material entering into the ship when it is completed. The other proposal is to strike the duty off and allow the Canadian ship owner to purchase a ship from the markets of the world and register it free of duty under the Canadian flag. The minister knows I have also another little hobby. We have been driving our ships away from Canada. We have actually made them seek refuge in some outside country, because we would not allow them to trade in southern latitudes. The minister will allow them to go as far north as they like. They can go to the rocky coast of Labrador, or to the North Pole in winter time, and the Minister of Marine will make no objection; but when they want to go to the sunny South, amidst the laughing waves and eternal sunshine, the minister says, No, we will not allow you to go. That has been his policy ever since he has been minister.


John Douglas Hazen: I should be delighted to
see my hon. friend go South.


John Howard Sinclair: As you know, Mr. Chairman, there are numerous ways in which a minister can prevent a private member from securing any reform. It is impossible for a private member to get a bill through this House if the Government do not want the Bill to be passed. Two years ago I introduced a Bill to remedy the disadvantage I have spoken of. The Minister of Marine admitted that I was right. He said that the object of the Bill was good, and referred it to the Committee of Marine and Fisheries. The Committee of Marine and Fisheries never sat, and the Bill died a violent death.


John Douglas Hazen: Not a violent death, a peaceful death.


John Howard Sinclair: And I hold the minister responsible for it. Some hon. gentlemen have referred to Great Britain. We all know the two lines of policy that have guided Great Britain-free trade and free ships. The result is that Britain controls one-half of the world's tonnage. The British flag flies in every sea, and Britain does one half of the carrying trade of the world. She could not have done that under a protective system. She could not have done it under our system of charging a duty on ships. There is no necessity in Great Britain for a man to have a coasting license, for everything is free. If a man in Great Britain wants to buy a ship, he can go to the ends of the earth and buy it, and register it under the British flag free of duty. They will welcome it; they are glad to have it.under the British register. Let us adopt a policy like that in Canada, so far as the purchase of ships is concerned. I am not making the proposal that we should abolish the protective tariff in Canada altogether. At this time, when we need money so badly, I do not think it would be practical to strike off all the duties, but we could return to a ship-owner the duty he paid on the raw material entering into his ship. It is only fair that we should do that. These are the practical proposals that I trust the minister will not forget when he takes up this matter with his colleagues.


Mr. W. F. CARROLL (Cape Breton South):: It seems to me that the two grievances which the business interests of Canada have to-day in this connection are, first, the scarcity of ships, and, secondly, the high rates that shipping companies charge. These difficulties can be surmounted, first of all by building more ships, and, secondly, by having the ships built by interests who will be real rivals to the interests which control shipping in Canada to-day. I may say that the present Prime Minister of Canada, in the course of a speech at Halifax during the election of 1911, did promise some assistance in the building up of a Canadian mercantile marine.	.
I do not think that the right hon. gentle-


Angus Alexander McLean: One speaker on
the other side stated that there was a tariff on ships imported into this country. There is a tariff on ships imported from foreign countries, but not on ships imported from England, Ireland, or Scotland. Most of the ships imported into Canada are built in Great Britain. Let us look
at this matter in a broad way. It is stated that we can build our own ships. It is possible for us to do so, providing the steel industries will engage in the business of rolling steel. Where does Britain get the * siteel that goes into her ships? I understand that more than half the steel going into ships built in Great Britain before the war was rolled in Belgium and the United States. It is true tha/t this steel goes into that country free of duty.
I think that in this House there are enough men of ability to solve this question. It may be that if the duty were taken off steel, the firm of Vickers Maxim or some other firm in Canada with means could enter into this industry. That is a question that can be solved. It is not necessary to appoint a commission for that purpose. I would suggest to the Government that they get assistance from the men in this House in solving the problem, and that to that end a committee of this House be appointed, composed of business men, to confer on this subject. I do not know whether the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) and the hon. member for Red Deer" (Mr. Michael Clark) would agree with the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) or the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) in regard to the facts in this case. But I think we ought to attempt this question within the four walls of this House. The Government to-day is engaged in the problem of the present war, and every moment of the time of ministers is taken up with thlse problems. But I think that a great question, such as this, which is engaging the attention of all the business men in this country, should receive the attention of the business men of this House. I have no doubt that members of the Government would take suggestions from the members of this House on this subject. There seems a consensus of opinion that Canada should have ships and should have them at once. We all agree on that. How can we obtain these ships as cheaply as they are built in Great Britain? That question the Government can solve, I believe, with the House. There would be no harm in making a trial by appointing a committee. We may not all agree, but let us set aside our politics for a time and see if we cannot deal with this grave and important question. It is a question for this Parliament to solve. What are we here for? We are here to do the business of the people of this country, and this question of ship-


Mr. NICKLE:: I have listened with great interest to this discussion, for shipbuilding is a matter that has engaged my attention for three or four years. If anything were necessary to bring home to me the difficulty of the problem, I think it would'be found in the speeches of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Carroll), thp hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff), and the hon. member for Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair). The hon. member for Assiniboia comes from a rural district where grain is the chief product, and with characteristic shrewdness he sees that if the cost of a ship is increased, the cost of transporting grain by that ship must pe increased. And, as the price of the article of export is fixed in the foreign market, when the cost of transportation is increased, the return to the producer must be lessened. Therefore, he says: Let us have free trade in all that goes into the making of a ship, because in that way you will lessen the cost of transportation. The hon. member for Guysborough comes from the East. He is not particularly concerned about the cost of transportation, but would like to see shipping developed on the seaboard. Therefore, he says: Let us take the duty off. ships, and let the ships of all countries come into this country free of duty; in that way you will build up a great marine. But the hon. member for South Cape Breton sees that if the duty is taken off steel, a great business in his constituency will suffer. Therefore he says: Do not take the duty off steel; leave the duty on the component parts of the ship; develop the steel industry in Canada, pay 
the builders a bounty and we shall have a great mercantile marine. Let us face the question fairly and squarely. England has developed a great manufacture of ships. Three things have contributed to her success in this matter. She has coal, she has steel, and she has cheap labour. So her vessels cover the seven seas, and she controls the shipping of the world. The hon. member for Guysborough says: Let us rebate to the manufacturer of ships whatever duty the Government collects on the commodities that enter into the composition of the ship. Now, I have given this matter some thought, and know whereof I speak when I say that this would not solve the problem in its entirety. Two factors enter into the cost of an article-the material and the labour. If you were to rebate to the manufacturer every dollar he had paid in duty, he would still be at a disadvantage, comparing the wages paid to the skilled mechanic here with those paid in England. Further, in a highly organized manufacturing industry such as shipbuilding, the Canadian manufacturer is at a disadvantage because the overhead charges per dollar of production are infinitely greater than in the very highly organized and efficient plants that they have in England.
You have to go farther than rebate to the Canadian manufacturer the duty that he pays on the article. You have to develop some scheme by which the difference in wages ,is met. It would be manifestly unfair to ask the steel worker in this country to take a wage that would not bring him an adequate return for his labour. If you attempted such a thing the inevitable result would be that he would turn bis attention to some other means of earning a livelihood. That leaves you but one other way to manage the situation, and I quite agree with what hon. members on this and the other side have said that the Government should face "this shipbuilding problem. I see no way of doing it unless you can develop some system by which a certain tonnage bounty is going to be given. There is a small subsidy paid, so small that it does not amount to much. But on taking this matter into consideration, there are three things that you have to keep in view. You have to keep in view the fact that the farmer of the West will not stand an increased freight Tate, because that lessens the profit on his product; you have to take into consideration, in the second place, the fast that the skilled artisan is

not going to take a small wage to develop a national industry, and you have to take into consideration that if Canada wants a shipbuilding industry established, the entire people must bear a part of the burden during the pexiod while that industry is in its development stage.
Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $20,000.


William Pugsley: What was done with this |20,000 last year?


John Douglas Hazen: We spent $8,528.94 out of the $20,000.


William Pugsley: That is in a general *way.


John Douglas Hazen: There was some expenditure at BeaT river, Margaree harbour, Guys-borough harbour, Barrington passage, Yarmouth harbour, North Head, Grand Manan, St. John river, Charlottetown harbour, Summerside, Lachine, Lake St. Clair, Lake Erie, near Amherstburg, and Port Dalhousie. Half of the amount was spent near Amherstburg in removing the wreck of the City of London. It was removed by F. J. Trotter, of Amherstburg, under contract. The expenditures- at the other places named were comparatively small.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What was spent at Lake St. Clair?


John Douglas Hazen: The wreck of the Charles
Crawford was removed by F. J. Trotter under contract at a cost of $1,450. During the current year our expenditure has been very trifling, being less than $1,000 up to the 31st December. We ask for $20,000, but the expenditure might not be over $1,000 entirely depending on the wrecks that take place.


Alexander William Chisholm: What was the
expenditure at Margaree harbour? *


John Douglas Hazen: The wrecked steamer Elec-tra was removed by Captain G. LeBlanc under contract and the expenditure was $150.


Alexander William Chisholm: How was this tender
called for?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot give that information as I do not happen to have it here, but I will get it for my hon. friend.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am afraid that it
was only a contract in name. I do not think there was any contract. The contract, as far as I could find out, was given
by the man who has the patronage for the county.


William Pugsley: Let that item stand.


John Douglas Hazen: We can discuss this matter on some other item.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am not particular;
I do not mind, but I do not like to hear the statement made that this work was done by contract. I do not think it was.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the information
given me by the officers of my department and my deputy minister says that he is satisfied that it is correct. However, I will get the information.


Mr. McKENZIE:: What is the rule about the removal of these wrecks? I understood that the owner of the vessel had to remove a wreck at his own expense.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the rule. If there is a wreck, we ascertain who are the owners of the vessel and we give them notice to remove the wreck. Some times they do it and there is no further trouble, but in other cases they do not do it promptly and we have to do it and then we endeavour to collect from the owners. In some cases we succeed in collecting, but in some cases these vessels are owned by people who are really not worth anything and we do not succeed. But, the rule is that we notify the person to remove the wreck and if he does not we do it, charge the cost to him and endeavour to collect it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I have something to say about the next item, for "winter mail service," and as it is now eleven o'clock, I think we might leave it for another time.


John Douglas Hazen: This is for the winter service between Cape Tormentine and Cape Traverse by the ice boats. Is that the item that my hon. friend wishes me to discuss?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think we have got along very well, and it is rather late. I assume that is the general vote for that purpose?


John Douglas Hazen: This is for the service between Cape Traverse and Cape Tormentine when you have to cross by open boat. There are times when no steamer can cross and there is a crossing at the capes.


William Pugsley: I do not think the minister would lose anything by adjourning, because my hon. friend would like to discuss that matter.


John Douglas Hazen: I am not objecting, but I did not suppose that that was the item that my hon. friend desired to discuss.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What I have to say will be very much on the general question.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. <7. D. Hazen, the House adjourned aA 10.56 p.m.
Friday, February 11, 1916.