1916-02-07

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Report of the Auditor General for the year ended March 31, 1915, vol. 3.-Sir Thomas White.
Despatch to His Royal Highness the Governor General from the Right Hon. the Secretary of State for the Colonies, transmitting copy of the Parliamentary Debates of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom on the 12th January upon the resolution which was adopted by that House to this effect: With a view to increasing the power of the Allies in the prosecution of the war, His Majesty's Government should enter into immediate

consultation with the Governments of the Dominions, in order with their aid to bring the whole economic strength of the Empire into co-operation with our Allies in a policy directed against the enemy.-Sir Robert Borden.


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Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister) laid on the table a copy of an Order in Council appointing Robert A. Pringle, of the city of Ottawa, one of His Majesty's counsel learned in the law, and His Honour D. B. MacTavish, county court judge for the county of Carleton, commissioners for the purpose of conducting an inquiry into and concerning the origin of the fire which destroyed the Parliament buildings at Ottawa, and to make full investigation into all matters connected therewith, with full power to engage the services of experts, and technical advisers, and other assistance as they may deem necessary. .

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Right Hon.' Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister) presented the report of the committee appointed to prepare a resolution on the death of the Right Hon. *Sir Charles Tupper, Baronet, G.C.M.G.: This report reads as follows:
Resolved, that the House of Commons of Canada desires to express its deep sense of the loss sustained by the Dominion and the Empire in the death of the late Rt. Hon. Sir Charles -Tupper, Baronet, G.C.M.G., C.B. For many years a commanding figure in the Parliament and Government of this Dominion In the confederation, expansion and development of which he played so great a part, Sir Charles Tupper's name and career will ever be held by Canadians in intimate association with the progress and upbuilding of our country.
Full of years and honours he has passed away, leaving behind him a long and impressive record of public service.
The House of Commons avails itself of this opportunity to record its tribute of respect to the memory of one of its most distinguished members.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved, seconded by the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the adoption of the report.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, Sir Charles
Tupper entered public life in the province of Nova Scotia, of which he was a native, just sixty years before 'his lamented death last autumn. For twelve years before Confederation he was a leading and com-
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manding figure in that province, and his record and career in that provincial arena was what we might expect from one who displayed the great qualities which characterized him in after years in the wider Federal arena. Under his leadership the province of Nova Scotia entered upon a policy of free public education and of active railway development. His proposal for the union of the Maritime Provinces led to the holding of a conference at Charlottetown, at which delegates from the united provinces of Canada made their presence known, and in that way he directly led up to the great movement which resulted in the founding of this Confederation. For nearly twenty years after Confederation he was a member of the House of Commons; and in that historic building on the Hill, now in mins, his was one of the most commanding figures during all that time. He occupied many and important portfolios, and in 1886, or thereabouts, left the active discharge of political duties in this country to undertake the not less important duties of High Commissioner at London. All those who had an opportunity of knowing his record and his work during that time agree, I am sure, that Canada could have had no more able, no more indefatigable, and no more faithful public servant than Sir Charles Tupper. I came into Parliament when the Government of which he was- Prime Minister was defeated in 1896. I had known him, of course, but not intimately, as a great Nova Scotian, before I entered public life, and I can pay with every sincerity this tribute to his memory. After serving under him for four years, while he was leader of the Opposition from 1896 to 1900, I was impressed and inspired with an even higher appreciation of his great ability, and an even greater admiration of his wonderful qualities than when I first, in the autumn of 1896, as one of his followers, took my seat in the House of Commons. He had splendid qualities. Not only his political friends, but his political opponents admired and paid tribute to him. He had a magnificent courage which never quailed before any danger, or in the face of any odds. He had a fine optimism. He was a firm believer in every sense in the resources of this Dominion, and in the greatness of its future. His constructive statesmanship was evidenced in the various policies which he advocated for the development and upbuilding of the country. Whatever difference of opinion may have existed with regard to the wisdom of those policies, no difference of opinion could possibly have existed as to his sincere conviction that they were wise policies, or as to the remarkable ability and the wide vision which he displayed in defending them, both in Parliament and in the country. He was undoubtedly a great protagonist, a man who, in the course of his public career delivered and received as many hard blows as any public man in Canada. But those who knew him intimately, not only his political friends, but his political opponents, will agree that, behind the vigour of his attack, behind the strong and earnest effort which he always orought to the advocacy of the policies, which he upheld, there was absolutely no personal bitterness.
I had the privilege of an interview with him in the month of August last; I went to his home in the country, near London, for the purpose of seeing him before I returned to Canada. So far as his physical condition was concerned, he was, of course, very feeble, but I do not remember ever having spoken to him when his mind was clearer, his intellect more vigorous, or when he took a keener interest in the welfare of this Dominion, in its relations to the Empire, and in all that concerned the Empire at large. I spent about an hour with him on that occasion, and I came away inspired by the wonderful interest he displayed in the great events through which we are passing; by the boundless optimums and courage Which still animated him with regard to the conduct otf the wair, with regard to our duty in the war, and with regard to its ultimate outcome.	.
In him passed away the last of the great Canadians who took a^ leading part in laying the splendid foundations of this Dominion. He lived to see its boundaries extended to the gleat oceans on the West and on the North. He lived to see amply fulfilled the prophecies of early days which his far-seeing vision had inspired. At the last, as at the first, he held an abiding faith in the future of his country, and in its great destiny as one of the sister nations of this vast Empire. Among the thousands who followed his mortal remains to their last resting place, I wlafe privileged to be present. Years ago, he marked the spot where after life's fitful fever he should sleep. There in the quiet God's acre, in the suburbs of Halifax, where he desired to he laid at rest, he reposes by the side of her who for more than sixty years was his faithful companion and help-mate.
I trust that in the not distant future, upon Parliament Hill, there will arise a monument worthy of his memory; but.
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his most enduring monument will be the splendid record of achievement which commemorates his name in every province of Canada. Upon the tablet above the tomb of the great architect of St. Paul's Cathedral, there is written this inscription, " Si monumentum requiris, circumspice." So of him, one of the greatest founders of our Confederation, this may justly be said; if you seek his monument, look around you and behold all that he wrought for the Canada that he loved so well and served so faithfully.
Right Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, the House of Commons will honour itself, even more than it will honour the memory of Sir Charles Tupper, by testifying in the most solemn manner its appreciation of the many services and arduous labours of one who was in his time, [DOT] and who must remain for all time upon its roll of honour, one of its most illustrious members, one who contributed in no small degree to make Canada what it >s to-day. Sir Charles Tupper was the last survivor of that galaxy of strong and able men whom the Canadian people delight to honour with the name of Fathers of Confederation. Amongst the able men, who in the fall of 1864, assembled in the city of Quebec with the object of finding a basis of union for the then disjointed provinces of British North America, and whose united efforts brought forth the Canadian Confederation, the name of Tupper stands eminent among the most eminent. Fifty years and more have passed since that date, and perhaps now, we are sufficiently removed from those stormy times to be able to frame a correct estimate of the part played by the statesmen of Canada in that intensely dramatic period of our history.
Undoubtedly to George Brown was due the first initiation of Confederation. He it was, who, by his strong and persevering agitation against the unwieldy union of Upper rand Lower Canada, directed the destinies of Canada towards the Confederation of the older provinces of Biitish North America. It seems to me to be equally true that it was Sir George Cartier who first put the idea into shaue when he set upon it the seal of his essentially practical mind, and brought to it the support of the one province which was material to the idea, if the idea was ever to become a fact.
By his talent and ability, Galt lent aid to the movement; still more did he do so by obtaining for it the influential adhesion of the strong minority in the province fSir Robert Borden.]
of Quebec, of which he was the illustrious representative. It was the good fortune of Tilley to be able, almost from the first, to bring his province to support the idea with a minim|um of division and difficulty. Macdonald was the last to come into line. It is of record that for many years he objected to any change in then existing condition of things, and only a few days before the coalition of 1864 he had almost passionately antagonized the very idea of a federal union. But when ho did adopt the principle he became at once the captain and the pilot. It was his master hand that took hold of the helm, met difficulties as they arose, arrived at solutions of unforeseen obstacles, and steadily and unerringly directed the course until port was reached. And what was the part of Tupper? In his day, this question of Confederation antagonized friends and divided foes. Now that we may look upon it in the calm judgment of history, it must be admitted, I think, that Tupper brought to the cause more firm conviction and took more chances than did any one else. It must be remembered that at that time Nova Scotia was completely against him, and that instead of using time and patience to win the province over to the idea of Confederation, he forced it into the union by the doubtful authority of a dying legislature. The grandeur of the idea strongly appealed to his mind, and he would not let pass the opportunity which if missed might not occur again for many years. If he erred at all, he erred- because he loved not wisely but too well. Indeed, in order to understand the action of Sir Charles Tupper at this important juncture in the history of our country, we must remember what was the chief characteristic of the man. In my judgment the chief characteristic of Tupper was courage; courage which no obstacle could down, which rushed to the assault, and which, if repulsed, came back to the combat again and again; courage which battered and hammered, perhaps not always judiciously, but always effectively; courage which never admitted defeat and which in the midst of overwhelming disaster ever maintained the proud carriage of unconquerable defiance. This attribute of oouTage was the dominant feature of his whole public career, and perhaps never shone more prominently than in the manner in w'hOh he entered public life. It had not been his lot to be born to wealth or affluence. The son of a poor Baptist clergyman, he had succeeded by his own efforts in obtaining an education, and winning a

diploma in the medical profession. He was a young practitioner, not known at all outside the precincts of his own town, and hardly known within them, when with splendid audacity he threw himself against one who was the darling of the people, the most potent influence in Norn Soota and, perhaps the brightest impersonation of intellect thlat ever adorned the halls of a legislature in any part of what is now Canada. Joseph Howe was then the member fox Cumberland. In the province of Nova Scotia there is a tradition still extant, transmitted from father to son, and repeated at many firesides, that on one occasion, when Howe had addressed a meeting of his constituents and had brought Ms auditors to a pitch of enthusiasm even greater than that which his magnetic eloquence had ever before elicited, a young man rose from the audience to reply. It is stated that Howe was somewhat surprised and perhaps not a little amused hut at once yielded assent with something like patronizing -condescension. If the was surprised- at first, he had! greater reason for surprise when he listened to the address of his hitherto unknown opponent. He found that in the speech of this young man there was meat and substance which moved the people and which gave cause for reflection and worry. The tradition further has it, that when Howe returned to Halifax he stated to his friends that he had met in Cumberland a young doctor who would he a tower of strength to the Conservatives and a thorn in the -side of the Liberals. The truth of his prediction was soon borne out, even at his own expense. At the elections which followed in 1855 young Tupper came forward against Howe in the county of Cumberland and wrested it from him. Howe at that time was at the zenith of his fame and it may certainly be said of his successful opponent .that no one ever crossed the portals of any legislature through -so wide an entrance. Sir William Johnson was the leader of the Conservatives in Nova Scotia. He was a man of eminent ability, but being far advanced in years and in poor health, was only too glad to rely on the services of a young man of -so much promise. From the day that young Tupper came to the fore in the legislature of Nova Soo-tia he became the guiding spirit of his party and the inspiration of all his followers. Almost from that day his life became associated with the life of Canada, because it was only a few years afterwards, when
he had become premier of his province, that the movement for Confederation was suddenly started. In that movement for Confederation, with all the excitement that it produced, and with all the agitation to which it gave birth, he found a genial field for his great parliamentary ability.
I have s-aid that courage was his -chief characteristic; but it was not 'his only characteristic. His mind had been cast in a broad mould. Whatever question he had to deal with he never approached it from the narrow sphere of- parochial -limitation; on the contrary, he approached it always from the broadest conception it was susceptible of. When I entered this House, more than forty years ago these were the two things which particularly struck me in him. He was then in the prime, of life and in the full maturity.of his powers; he seemed to me the very incarnation of th-e parliamentary athlete, always strong, always ready to accept battle and to give battle. Though often my judgment was against him, in every case I -could not -say that he was animated by anything else than the broadest view of Canadian problems. When Confederation had become an accomplished fact he r-o-se to the front in the broader arena, just as he had taken the first rank in the legislature of his own province. From the day that he first entered the Chamber of the House of Commons, now unfortunately destroyed, his power was at once asserted and at once acknowledged by everybody. He came into the Federal House under the most distressing -circumstances, for in tihe elections of 1867, the first after Confederation, his whole province had gone against him; he alone had succeeded in retaining a seat. His conduct under these circumstances was worthy of all pra-ise. He applied himself with untiring zeal and unselfishness -to the task -of binding the wounds of his province, -and of reconciling the people to the new conditions. At first he met with but indifferent success; the feeling of resentment persistent only to be assuaged by the soothing hand of time. He had not the supreme gift of which Sir John A. Ma-cdonald was pre-eminently the master: ith-at of reconciling conflicting elements and, with the minimum of friction, of bringing them together as if they had always been one.
In this House his name must ever remain -attached to two measures measures very different in character, hut each

of -which brought forth the particular qualities with which he was endowed; I refer to Protection, and the Canadian Pacific railway- This is not the time nor the occasion to discuss Protection as an economic principle, but I think everybody, friend or foe, must admit that the introduction of Protection into Canada was, be it for weal or woe, was due to iSir Charles Tupper. Sir John A. Macdonald, as in the case of Confederation, had at first been rather indifferent and doubtful; Sir Charles Tupper never had a doubt. He it was who first became its advocate in this House, and he it was who carried on the agitation in the country; and in my humble judgment, great as was the personality and prestige of Sir John A. Macdonald, the victory of 1878 was due more to Sir Charles Tupper than to any one else. But it was not he, after all, who introduced the priciple of protection as an actual measure. He had been the champion, but be was not its artisan in this House. That honour was reserved for Sir Leonard Tilley. But if Sir Charles Tupper did not introduce the protective measure in this House, it was -simply because he did not choose to do -so. He might have had the portfolio of -Finance, but he rather chose the portfolio of Public Works, which at that time included railways. With this portfolio! he had the occasion to attach his name to another very great measure, the construction of the Canadian Pacific railway. All parties in this country had been in favour of a transcontinental railway, but no party had taken up the question with anything like serious earnestness until -sir Charles Tupper took it up with all the vigour of his nature. He organized the syndicate which built [DOT]the railway. Thes-e terms were- much criticised as extravagant and yet though we may yet criticise the terms granted the syndicate as extravagant-such was the immensity of the enterprise that it was more than once on the eve of collapse. Nothing daunted the couuatge of Sir Charles Tupper. He never had any doubt of its ultimate success, and it was his good fortune to see all his predictions more than fulfilled. Sir Charles Tupper had reached the zenith of his fame and power in this House when suddenly he withdrew from parliamentary life to accept the High Commissionership in London- The reasons which induced him to that step never were given to the public. But whatever they might have been, we who were his oppon-[ Sir Wilfrid Laurier. ]
ents thought that he had committed a great mistake. Undoubtedly his services in London were honourable and useful to the country, but in my opinion he was more fitted for parliamentary life, and his services to the country would have been still greater had he remained on the floor of this Parliament. Though absent from Ottawa and in far-away London, his heart never deserted the field of his former activities, and whenever there was a battle to be fought he appeared on the scene, and, with his characteristic vigour, was always in the thickest of the fray. Next to Sir John A. Macdonald, he was undoubtedly in his time the most powerful figure in the Conservative party. Indeed, it has always been a mystery to me and to those who sat on this side of the House that Sir Charles Tupper was not sent for when the old chieftain died. He was sent for at last, but then it was too late. The battle was already lost, and notwithstanding the vigour and brilliancy with which he threw himself into- the battle, he could not redeem the fortunes of his party.
The public life of Sir Charles Tupper ended with the elections of 1900, when he had reached the age of almost eighty years. His strong constitution had at last been shaken by a life of arduous labour, and he withdrew to a well earned rest. But though he retired from public life and the seclusion of his family circle, he continued from day to day to follow with passionate interest the fortunes of Canada. In that daily -spectacle h-e had this great , satisfaction, that the correctness of his estimate of th-e resources of this country, when they were still unknown and undeveloped, was abundantly justified. When at last the end came his eyes closed upon a Canada whose population had doubled and more than doubled, whose national revenue had trebled and quadrupled, whose commerce had risen from a comparatively small figure to the billion dollar mark -and -more, whose products in agriculture 'and industry had reacted figures that would have seemed fantastic in the first year of the Union-a Canada whose people were united even to the shedding of their blood in the defence and for the triumph of those principles of freedom and justice which the Fathers of Confederation had1 placed under the segais of Brutish institutions. To say that the life of Sir Charles Tupper was without fault would be to s-ay what cannot be said of any human life. But it must be said, and

Should ever be remembered, that but for the life of Sir Charles Tupper Canada would not be what it is to-day.
Motion of Sir' Robert Borden agreed to.
Sir Robert Borden moved:
That the resolution of condolence on the death of the Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Tupper be communicated to the members of his family on behalf of this House by Mr. Speaker.


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Motion agreed to.


Sir Robert BORDEN:: I desire to read for the information of the members a number of messages of sympathy which have been received on and since Friday last, but not in time to be communicated to the House at an earlier date.
From the Colonial Secretary to the Governor General.
London, 4th February, 1916.
To Sir Robert Borden:
Deeply sympathize with you and the Gov-eminent, Parliament and people of Canada in their great loss. People of Great Britain already bound to the Dominion by gratitude, magnificent services to Empire's cause will be yet" more firmly united to Canada by common grief.



ASQUITH.

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(Sgd.) BONAR LAW.
From the Governor of Newfoundland to the Governor General of Canada.
St. John's Newfoundland,
4th February, 1916.
My ministers desire me to convey the expressions of the universal sympathy in Newfoundland over the destruction of the Parliament Buildings at Ottawa and sorrow over the loss of. life through the conflagration.
(Sgd.) Davidson.
London, February 5, 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
Council and members Royal Colonial Institute deeply sympathize Government and people of Canada destruction your splendid Parliament Buildings.
Grey, President. London, February 5, 1916.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa.
Mr. Andrew Fisher, Australian High Com-m'ssioner, telegraph begins. Please convey to your chief and through him to the peopio of Canada Australia's sorrow at the sad misfortune that has overtaken them in the disastrous fire at Ottawa and our sympathy m the deplorable loss of valuable lives that attended.
Perley.
London, February 5, 1S16.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa.
My sincere congratulations on your fortunate escape from the disastrous fire which to our deep regret has wrought such damage to your Parliament Buildings.
Kitchener.
Toronto, February 4, 1916. The Right Hon. R. L. Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
Sincerely regret loss sustained^ in the destruction of the Parliament Buildings and especially sorry to hear of injuries sustained by your colleague and others, which I hope will not prove of a serious nature.
John. S. Hendrie.
St. John's, Newfoundland,
February T, 1916.
Rt. Hon. Sir R. L. Borden,
Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa, Ont.
Government and people of Newfoundland deeply sympathize with you in the destruction of your Parliament Buildings. This last act will still further increase the feeling of admiration throughout the whole Empire for your splendid work in connection with the war.
E. P. Morris.
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From 'the Governor General of Australia to the Governor General.
Melbourne, February 5, 1916.
Would express to Your Royal Highness my deep regret at loss sustained by people of Canada in* destruction of their beautiful Parliament Buildings.
(Sgd.) R. M. Ferguson.
Littlemill, February 5, 1916.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Canada.
Filled grief saddest news. For seven years new daily inspiration from sight beautiful towers. Lady Grey and X, while deeply mourning Canada's loss, know you will raise from ashes building worthy of a great destiny which war sacrifices in cause of righteousness have already abundantly insured for Canadian people.
Grey.
Sir Robert Borden,	.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
Grieved beyond expression, but this dreadful event will only weld together more firmly than ever the inflexible patriotism of all Canadians.	,,	,
Aberdeen,
Metropolitan Club, New York.
Toronto, February 4, 1916. Right Hon. Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
This Government and the people of Ontario as a whole have learned with deep regret of the destruction of the Parliament Buildings and we will be glad to co-operate in any way possible to minimize the inconvenience of the disaster. Have learned with much satisfaction of the escape of yourself and the members of the Government and members of Par-
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liament. We deeply deplore the logs of life which resulted from the fire and extend sympathy to those who have sustained personal injuries.
W. H. Hearst. Montreal, February 4, 1916. Sir Robert Laird Borden,
Premier and President of the Privy Council, Ottawa, Out.
1 hasten to present to you my sincerest condolences for the terrible disaster which occurred last night to the Federal Parliament Building.
Likatscheff,
Imperial Russian Consul General. Kamloops, B.C., February 4, 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
Shocked to hear of accident but thankful you escaped. On behalf of people of British Columbia wish to extend deepest sympathy to bereaved.
W. J. Bowser.
(Translation.)
Montreal, February 4, 1916. The Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
Following on the Are which has just destroyed the Parliament building, I wish to convey to you, on my behalf and that of the whole French colony, the assurance of our deep sympathy with the Dominion government in this dire calamity, and of our grief at the losses of human life consequent on it.
C. 33. Bonin,
French General Consul.
Montreal 4th February, 1916. The Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
On behalf of the citizens of Montreal I beg to express to you my heartful sympathy in the appalling disaster which has caused the loss of several lives and. the destruction of the most historic building of our Dominion.
Med eric; Martin,
Mayor of Montreal.
Winnipeg, Man., 4th February, 1916.
Rt. Hon. Sir R. L. Borden,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
The Legislature of the province of Manitoba desire to express to you deepest regret and concern for the great calamity which has befallen Canada in the burning of Parliament Buildings at Ottawa, and to convey our sincere sympathy for the families of those who have lost their lives, and to those who themselves have been injured.
T. C. Norris. London, 4th February, 1916.
Borden,
Prime Minister, Ottawa.
Accept my deep sympathy at great disaster.
Harcourt. Auckland, 5th Feb., 1916.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa.
Government and people of New Zealand desire express warmest sympathy with people of 
Canada in destruction their magnificent Parliament Buildings by fire and consequent loss of lives. Telegrams received indicate some doubt origin disaster. Will therefore not deal with this point until definite information to hand.
Massey,
Prime Minister.
From Mr. Bonar Law to the Governor General.
London, 4th Feb., 1916.
I hasten to express my profound sympathy with your Government and the people of Canada in the grave disaster which they have suffered by the destruction by fire of the Parliament Buildings at Ottawa. I sincerely trust that there has been no loss of life and am anxious to learn extent of damage.
Bonar Law.
Montreal, Que., 4th Feb., 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
I wish to express to the Dominion Government my sympathy for the sad loss of life and terrible destruction of the Dominion Parliament Buildings.
Italian Consul General,
Zunini.
London, 4th Feb., 1916.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa.
Deeply deplore loss of life and disastrous fire. Have received many expressions sympathy and regret here. Hope Burrell's injuries not serious.
Perley.
Toronto, Ont., 4th Feb., 1916.
The Right Honourable
Robert L. Borden
Premier, Ottawa, Ont.
Sincere sympathy in loss of noble buildings. God guide you in this fresh difficulty.
Bishop of Toronto.
London, 4th Feb., 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
At Grand Trunk Board to-day I was requested to convey great regret and sympathy at disaster of House of Parliament.
Alfred -Smithers.
New York, 4th Feb., 1916.
Sir R. L. Borden,
Premier Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
Am deeply affected by misfortune by brutal criminal act of our enemies, Am so glad the Lord has protected you. Please extend my feelings of sorrow to families of unfortunates.
Cap Seferovich, General Consul. London, 5th Feb., 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa.
Deeply grieved to hear of deaths and destruction of Parliament Building by fire.
Howard.﻿FEBRUARY 7, 1916
Aughrim, Wicklow, 5th Feb., 1916.
Itt. Hon. R. Borden,
Ottawa, Canada
AU Ireland filled with indignation at brutal *outrage. Accept deepest sympathy of our people.
, Redmond.
Panne, 6th February, 1916.
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Canada.
Lament irreparable loss of beautiful buildings. Congratulate you on merciful escape.
Alexander of Tech.
Boston, Mass., Feb. 5, 1916. Right Hon. Sir Robert Laird Borden,	,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
The Canadian Club of Boston in executive meeting assembled extends to you its sincere sympathy at the loss of life and destruction of historic Parliament Buildings. We are sure that from the ruins will arise with the indom-nitable Canadian spirit a new and grander edifice to testify the unconquerable soul of Canada.
Martin Green,
Secretary.
London, 6th Feb., 1916.
Prime Minister,
*	Canada.
I and all Canadian Corps wish to express our deep regret at deplorable loss of Dominion Parliament Buildings.
General Sir Edwin Alderson.
London, 6th Feb., 19T6.
Prime Minister,
Ottawa.
Desire express sympathy of Salvation Army in the deplorable disastrous fire which, whether occasioned by accident or design, has caused such loss and disappointment, and removed from one of the beauty spots of the Empire that striking result of faith and bold imagination so courageously established in early days of Canada's history. But the flag still flies I am convinced.	_
That faith in God in Canada in the future will shortly rise up out of the ashes a building more noble and more expressive of the opportunities and determination of a great and free people.
General Booth. Ottawa, February 5, 1916.
Dear Sir Robert:
Confirming my verbal communication of this evening, I hasten to inform you that I have just received a cable from my Chief, Baron Beyens, Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs, directing me to tender to the Government of the Dominion,- on behalf of the Belgian Government, the expression of its deep sympathy in the general regret caused by the destruction of the Parliament Building.
My Government expresses special feelings of sympathy with the loss of life having resulted from the disaster.
Yours sincerly,
(Sgd.) M. Goor.
Royal Consulate of Sweden at Montreal.
Montreal, February 4, 1916.
Sir,_The deplorable news of the disaster
that has met the Parliament Buildings in Ottawa and the loss of life and other great values thereby sustained induce me to offer to you the expression of my warmest sympathy.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant (Sgd.) David Bergstrom,
. Royal Swedish Consul General. ' The Right Hon. Sir Robert Laird Borden,

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Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa.
Toronto, Ont., 6th Feb., 1916.
The Right Honourable
Sir Robert Borden,
Ottawa, Ont.
On.behalf of. my congregation and myself 1 beg to offer expression of heartfelt regret ai the terrible catastrophe which has befallen the Parliament Buildings of the Dominion of Canada.
Rabbi Jacobs,
Toronto.
Consulate of Norway for Canada.
Montreal, 5th February, 1916.
Sir,-On behalf of my Government I wish to express my sincere regret to the Government and people of Canada at the irreparable national loss suffered through the destruction of the Federal Parliament Building and most of its priceless contents. I also much deplore the grievous loss of life with which this calamity so unhappily was attended, and desire to extend my sympathy to those bereaved on this occasion.
1 have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) F. Koren,
Royal Norwegian Consul for Canada. The Right Hon. Sir R. Borden, P.C., G.C.M.G., Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa.

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Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 21, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.
Mr. HAZEN:: Explain. [DOT]


Mr. SINCLAIR:: 
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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.
On the Orders of the Day:

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: With your
permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform my hon. friend the Minister of Militia (Sir Sam Hughes) of the contents of a letter which I have received from a certain county in Ontario. I do not care to give any names at the present time. A new battalion is being raised in this county, and my correspondent informs me that subscriptions are being taken up throughout the locality to supply the men with things which it is claimed are necessary, namely: five field kitchens, a motor truck, granite ware for cooking, a mess tent for the soldiers and a mess tent for the officers, signs or markers indicating the battalion to be attached to the coats of the men, and several other small items. I have heard that this is not the first incident of this nature, but that many similar subscriptions have been taken up. In my opinion, all these things should be provided by the Government as part of the equipment of the soldiers. Can my hon. friend give me any information on this matter?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Everything necessary for the soldiers in the field is supplied by the department.


Wilfrid Laurier: These subscriptions are being asked to supply the soldiers jvith field kitchens, mess tents, signs or markers indicating the battalion, and so on. These seem to be necessities which should be supplied by the Government.


Samuel Hughes: Field kitchens are now supplied by the department. They were not supplied at the beginning of the war, because a great many friends thought they would like to recognize their local battalions by supplying them with field kitchens. These mess tepts are really not necessary. If a battalion is to be in camp for the summer,. there is no reason why it should not have mess tents, but they are not essential for the soldiers' welfare. We supply motor trucks, but many regiments wanted additional trucks of their own and we allowed subscriptions to be taken up for them in a couple of cases, but only in the way I have mentioned.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would suggest to my hon. friend that whatever he thinks are necessities should be supplied 
by the Government, and that it is bad practice to allow subscriptions to be taken up for whatever is not necessary.


Samuel Hughes: These things are
not taken to the front; they are only allowed for the summer camps.



THE LATE MR. B. B. LAW, M.P.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: It
seems apparent that the apprehension which we had as to one of the members of this House, the hon. member for Yarmouth, N.S., Mr. Law, has become a certainty. It was my privilege and my duty, when I spoke in the House on Friday last, to express my very deep regret at the loss which we have all sustained through his death, and also to express the sympathy felt, I know, by all members with the family and friends of Mr. Law in their bereavement. It has been suggested to me that some hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House who did not find the opportunity to pay a tribute to the memory' of Mr. Law on Friday last, would desire the privilege of doing so to-day, and I hope that with the permission of the House they may avail themselves of this opportunity.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou):: On behalf of the gentlemen on this side of the House who have been associated in the representation of Nova Scotia in this Parliament with our friend, Mr. Law, who was the only victim among the members of this House in the disaster of Thursday night, I desire to express my thanks to the Prime Minister for the opportunity he has given us to say a word or two in appreciation of our late colleague. Mr. Law was the oldest member of this House in point of service, with the exception of the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden), from the province from which we come. He was the dean of the representation on this side from the province of Nova Scotia. Speaking as one who had the honour and pleasure of sitting in the Legislature of Nova Scotia with Mr. Law's esteemed father some fifteen or eighteen years ago, I desire to s.ay that those of us who come from that province regard Mr. Bowman Law as a man who among all our number was typical of the business people of Nova Scotia. He represented the constituency of Yarmouth where, in the old days, the merchants built their vessels and sailed them on the seven seas. He was the inheritor of -a business established in those days, which he extended and developed and

was a type of the men who have made Yarmouth one of the principal sea ports of the Dominion of Canada. By diligence in business he had attained a position, not only in his own county but throughout the whole province, which entitled him to the respect and admiration of all of our people for the splendid qualities he possessed in mercantile life. It was typical of the man that the last words he spoke in Parliament were on behalf of the industry, and of the men engaged in that industry, which is foremost in the constituency from which he, came. He was beloved by the plain people in his own constituency and honoured by men of both sides of politics, and so was re-elected to Parliament by increasing majorities and held a commanding position in his county which few men in Parliament have occupied. Every one who knew our honoured friend appreciated how modest he was in regard to the expression of his views. But, modest as he was he was a man not only of great business 'ability but was possessed of other high qualities which would have enabled him to take a place of eminence in public life, had he directed his abilities exclusively or principally along that line. Exceptionally devoted to the views he entertained and a man of the highest principles and ideals, he was recognized by all who were in close association with him as one of the strongest men in the public life of our province. It is a strange thing that to-day, just after we have listened to the panegyrics on the great Nova Scotian who was at one time leader of this House'and Prime 'Minister of the Dominion, and who passed away recently, by a strange coincidence of fate, we are called upon to mourn the loss of one of the members of the present House from the same province who occupied such a conspicuous place in public life, and who was loved and honoured by the people of that province.
In his private life, those of us who were aware of the relations that Mr. Law occupied with his beloved wife and daughter, who came with him to Ottawa on many occasions, know that these were of a character too sacred to touch upon. We know, however, that the blessings of happy association in family life were given him to enjoy in greater measure than to most men.
Dazed by the calamity of Thursday night, it is hard for us to realize that one who was so closely associated with us is gone and that we shall see him no more. It is one of the strange dispensations of Providence that the finger of death should have
touched him in the very midst of his labours. Knowing him as we did we are sure that when the time came for him to go down into the valley, of the shadow of death, when there was forced upon him the realization that for him the end of earthly things had come, he entered confidently within the shadow, and _ he was inspired by the faith which had guided him throughout 'life and with the certainty of a future which can only be given to men who lived as did Bowman Law. He has passed beyond our ken, beyond the reach of human harm or help,
To that vast realm of silence or of joy Where the innumerable dwell;
and he has left to us, who have been associated with him, as friends and as fellow-representatives nothing but the kindest recollections and a memory which will be cherished as long as life shall last. He has left to his constituents a record of devotion to their interests, of unswerving integrity in business and in political life, well worthy of emulation by us all and by those who come after us- Long after the disaster of Thursday last shall have been forgotten, the name of Bowman Law will be cherished in pleasant memory by the men associated with him and by the men and women of Nova Scotia whom he represented so well in this House.


John Howard Sinclair: I
had the honour and pleasure of Mr. Law's acquaintance for over fifteen years, and 1 esteemed him very much indeed. I counted him one of my best friends and his friendship was one of my most precious possessions. I have nothing to say except to join my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) in expressing my high regard for Mr. Law's character and my great sorrow at his untimely death.



RE-BUILDING OF THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day,
. Sir WILFRID LAURIER:	May I ask
my right hon. friend the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) if the Government have yet had time to consider the re-building of the Parliament Buildings. That question may be premature, but if so, will the right hon. gentleman give us an opportunity to debate the subject before a conclusion is reached as to what the plans shall be?
Robert Laird Borden: We shall be
very glad to have any opinions and sug-

gestions that hon. gentlemen opposite desire to place before the Government for consideration-



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 17, to incorporate The Canadian Indemnity Company.-Mr. Schaffner.
Bill No. 18, respecting W. C. Edwards and Company* Limited.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 19, respecting a patent of James W. Owen.-Mr. Middlebro.
Bill No. 20, respecting Queen's University at Kingston, and to amalgamate therewith The. School of Mining and Agriculture. -Mr. Niekle.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions to be answered orally are indicated -by an asterisk.)

Mr. McCRANEY:: Did the Minister of the Interior, at Chicago, in January, 1916, make any public statement on the question of enforced military service, with a view to influencing immigration into Canada? If so, in what terms?
Mr.'ROCHE: In addressing a conference *of our United States immigration agents recently held in Chicago for the purpose of reviewing the immigration situation and making plans for the future, the Minister of the Interior took an opportunity of making a statement refuting the false impression which had been created by articles which had appeared in certain United States papers regarding conscription in Canada.


PORT NELSON NAVIGATION.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	On what dates respectively did the first steamboats from outside ports arrive at Port Nelson in the summer season of the years 1912, 1913, 1914 and 1915, and what were the names of the said boats?
2.	On what dates respectively were the last steamboats cleared at the close of the season for any outside port in each of the said years, and what were the names of such boats so clearing? ,


Mr. BLONDIN:: 1.	1912, ss. Beothic. arrived off Nelson
roads, July 24. For lack of pilot did not proceed up river until July 29.	1913, ss.
Konaventure arrived at Port Nelson August 6.	1914, ss. Bonaventure arrived at Port
Nelson August 14.	1915, ss. Bellaventure
arrived at Port Nelson August 1.
2.	1912, &8. Beothic proceeded from Port Nelson to James bay. 1913, ss. Bonaventure, Bellaventure and Sinbad cleared

Port Nelson on October 13. Canadian Government survey steamer Acadia cleared October 19.	1914, ss. Bellaventure and
Sheba cleared Port Nelson October 17. 1915, ss. Bellaventure, Adventure and Sheba cleared Pprt Nelson October 22.


EXPORTS AND IMPORTS TO UNITED KINGDOM.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. II. MAOLEAN:
What was the total amount outstanding as exports and Canadian foreign exports respectively, to the United Kingdom for the calendar year 1915?
Mr. REID:: Domestic, $349,916,648; foreign, $11,570,085.


DOMINION NOTES IN CHARTERED BANES.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Whatwas the total amount outstanding as advances in Dominion notes to Canadian Chartered banks against deposited securities on December 31, 1915, under the Order in Council of August 3, 1914?	*


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: The strict answer to the question as worded would be that there w-as no amount outstanding, but as it is possible my hon. friend desires information as to the amount outstanding on the date mentioned on advances made in Dominion notes under the Financei Act 1914, passed very shortly after the order in question, I have answered the question on that understanding.
Amount of Dominion notes advanced to banks under the Finance Act, 1914, and outstanding on December 31, 1915, was $2 028 -635.


CANADIAN EXPORTS.
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What wpre the values of exports of domestic merchandise from Canada for the months of November and December, 1915, under the following heads, respectively: the mines ; the fisheries : the forests; animal products; agricultural products ; manufactures and miscellaneous. Also the total value in exports of coin and bullion and foreign products?


John Dowsley Reid: Merchandise.	November.	December.The Mine	$ 6,634,887	$ 5,632,984The Fisheries.. ..	2,075,877	2,067,132The Forest	4,556,502	3,553,083Animals and their	produce	12,113,520	9,430,534Agriculture	53,936,837	49,389,763Manufactures .. ..	13,231,022	21,810,697Miscellaneous .. ..	383,271	287,209Coin and bullion ..	9,865,896	101,342Foreign merchandise.	1,504,177	1,423,201


WAR SUPPLIES-SOCKS.
Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	How many pairs of socks are issued to each soldier on his enlistment for overseas service?
2.	Are socks supplied to soldiers by the Militia Department after they have gone overseas?
3.	If so, under what circumstances and conditions are they supplied?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Two pairs (as per regulations).
2.	Yes.
3.	On service, socks are supplied irom the Canadian Ordnance Depots in England on demand from the officers commanding units in any number required.


ST. PETER'S INDIAN RESERVE.
Mr. OLIVER:: Has the resolution of a public meeting held in Selkirk, Manitoba, on March 29, demanding of the Government the confirmation of the surrender and the immediate issuance of title to the lands of the St. Peter's Indian Reserve sold to private parties, been acceded to?


Mr. ROCHE:: Method of settlement of the matter in dispute has been determined and legislation confirming same will be introduced this session.


FENIAN RAID BOUNTY.
John Howard Sinclair: How much has been expended in the province of Nova Scotia for salaries and expenses in any way connected or arising out -of the investigation and distribution of the Fenian Raid Bounty payable to Nova Scotia Veterans, exclusive of the bounty itself?


Samuel Hughes: 


DOCTOR LANGFELDT.
[Stage Direction]
The following question standing in the name of the late Mr. Law was answered by Mr. Roche:
I
1.	Is Doctor Langfeldt, former Canadian immigration officer at Boston, Mass., now in the employ of this Government?
2.	If so, in what department and at what salary \
3.	What is the name and nationality of the present immigration officer at Boston, Mass., and what salary does he receive?
Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Not in the employ of this Government.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	James M. Stahl. British. Born in Australia. In the employ of Immigration Branch since 1905. Present salary $1,500 per annum.


HALF MOONS FOG ALARM.
[Stage Direction]
The following question standing in the name of the late Mr. Law was answered by Mr. Hazen:
1.	Who is superintendent of the fog alarm
station at Half Moons, off Blanche, Shelburne County, N.S. ?	,
2.	When was he appointed, and at what salary?
3.	Has the Government or Department of Marine and Fisheries received any complaints respecting the loss of the schooner Louise in 1915 on those rocks when the whistle was not being blown?
4.	If complaints were received, what action was taken by the Department of Marine and Fisheries?
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Jesse Obed.
2.	December 18, 1915; salary $980, out of which he must provide for the services of an assistant.
3.	Yes.
4.	The man then in charge was removed.


VOTERS' LISTS, 1915.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	What quantity of the voters' lists for Federal elections was printed in 1915, outside of the King's Printer's office?
2.	By what persons or firms was the printing performed, and what were the respective amounts charged by said firms or persons therefor respectively?


BKVTKED EDITION
Mr. BLONDIN:: Name of District.
Amount paid.	Where Printed.
Hants, N.S	
Kings, N.S	
Yarmouth and Clare, N.S	
Halifax City, N.S	
Halifax County, N.S	
Pietou, N.S	
Cape Breton South and Richmond, N.S.. Cape Breton North and Victoria, N.S.. .
Westmorland, N.B	
Inverness, N.S	
Shelburne and Queens, N.S	
Antigonish and Guysboro, N.S	
Cape Breton South and Richmond, N.S., Cape Breton North and Victoria, N.S..
York-Sudbury, N.B	
Colchester, N.S	
Lunenburg, N.S	
Northumberland, N.S	
Cumberland, N.S	
Victoria and Carleton, N.B	
Charlotte, N.B	
Royal, N.B	
Lunenburg, N.S	
Kent, N.B	
Restigouche and Madawaska, N.B. . . .
Gloucester, N.B	
St. John City and Counties of St. Johr
and Albert, N.B	
Brandon, Man	
$299.58.	. .Imperial Publishing Co., Halifax,
345.55.	. . . Do
407.65.	. . Do
612.15.	..Halifax Herald, Halifax, N.S.
518.90.	. . Do
663.55.	. . Do
193.95.	. . Do
325.15.	. . Do
. 660.85.	. . Do
425.40.	.Royal Print. & Litho. Co., Halifax
366.65.	. . Do
426.30.	. . Do
982.50.	. . Do
140.00.	. . Do
544.60.	. .The Sydney Post, Sydney.
367.00.	. . Do ,
257.80.	..Barnes & Co., St. John, N.B.
	..Standard, St. John, N.B.
656.00.	. . . Do
495.10.	. . Do
341.78.	. . Do
499.20.	. . Do
260.60.	. . Do
286.90.	..St. John's Globe, St. John.
448.80.	. . Do
410.18.	. .Barnes & Co., St. John.
1004.35.	. . Do
1163.58.	. . .Telegram Job Printers, Ltd., W peg, Man.
530.78.	. . Do
Lists printed in the province of Nova Sootia and New Brunswick were paid at the rate of 5 cents per name and 50 cents per heading, exclusive of paper.
Brandon and Lisgar lists were paid at the rate of 11 cents per name, including headings and paper.	*


IMPERIAL MUNITIONS BOARD.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Is it true, as alleged, that the Imperial Munitions Board proposes erecting or having erected in Notre Dame de Grace Ward, Montreal, a factory to employ 3,000 men to make fuses, and that if permission can be obtained by the amendment of the city by-laws which prohibit factories at that place undertake to remove or to have removed the said factory within two years after the war?
2.	if such is the case, is this factory to be operated by the board? If not, by whom?
3.	Who is to pay for the site and factory, and what"is the amount to be so paid?
4.	Who is acting for the board in this matter?


Robert Laird Borden: I have, as a matter of convenience and courtesy, asked the Imperial Munitions Board to give information with regard to this matter, but I would suggest to the hon. member who has asked the question that the information is as much available to him as it is to the Government, as the Canadian Government does not have any control over the Imperial Munitions Board. The information which
has been furnished me by the Chairman of the Board on request is as follows:
1.	The Imperial Munitions Board propose to erect a factory for the loading of time fuses at Verdun (Montreal).
2.	The factory will be operated by a company specially formed for the purpose, the entire capital stock of which belongs to the board.
3.	All expenditures for factory and equipment will be provided by the board through the above company. The amount will probably be $300,000 to $325,000.
4.	The answer is embodied in No. 3.


MAIL CONTRACT, SHELBURNE COUNTY.
[Stage Direction]
The following question standing in the name of the late Mr. Law was answered by Mr. Casgrain:
1.	Were tenders called for mail contract be-[DOT] tween North West Harbour, Shelburne County,
N.S., and Greenwood Station?
2.	If so, what are the names of the tenderers, and amount of each tender £
3.	Was Thomas B. Perry awarded this contract? If so, for what length of time did he hold same?
4.	Why was contract cancelled?
5.	Who is the present contractor, and what price does he receive for same?
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Yes.
3.	T. B. Perry, $200 per annum; C. H. Kelley, $218.40 per annum.
3.	The contract was awarded to Perry, but before it was executed the department

issued instructions to the inspector to withhold action pending further consideration.
4.	The department received an offer lower than that of Perry.
'5. C. H. Kelly, at $195 per annum.


THE POOR AND UNEMPLOYMENT.
Mr. MEDERIO MARTIN:: Is the Government aware as to whether or not there is an increasing number of poor people and people out of work? If so, is it the Intention of the Government to aid the municipalities where such people live?


Robert Laird Borden: The Government i3 not aware of an increasing number of people out of work; on the contrary, the information which comes to the Government indicates that there is very much less unemployment than there was a year ago; that in fact, unemployment at the present time is under the ordinary. No applications from municipalities for aid, as suggested, have come to the Government.


WAR CONTRACTS-CANVAS SHOES.
Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Has the firm of John Ritchie & Company, of Quebec, been making any canvas shoes for the Canadian Expeditionary Forces? If so, how many?
2.	How many pairs of canvas shoes have been purchased by the Canadian Military Authorities since August 4, 1914?
3.	For what special condition of service are these shoes considered to be adapted?


Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Yes, 60,000 pairs.
2.	485,000 pairs.
3.	Rest shoes for use on ship board, billets or in camp.


RIGAUD RURAL MAIL DELIVERY.
Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What are the respective dates of the tenders of $595 and $700 made by Joseph Cho-lette for the Rural Delivery, Rigaud No. 2?
2.	What are the respective, dates of the tenders of $495 and $600 made by Hilaire Seguin, for the Rural Delivery, Rigaud No. 1?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Tender of Joseph Cholette at $595, dated September 21, 1915, and tender at $700, dated September 9, 1915. Tenders were receivable at the department not later than December 24, 1915.
2.	Tender of Hilaire Seguin at $495, dated September 21, 1915, and tender at $600, dated September 9, 1915. Tenders were receivable at the department not later than September 24, 1915.


MACHINE GUNS AND ROSS RIFLE.
Frank Oliver: Mr. Speaker, I did not
intend to ask questions 95 and 96 again. I
asked them on Thursday, when the hon. minister suggested that he did not wish to make the answers public, but that he would give the answers to me privately. I note that the remark of the minister does not appear in Hansard, as I think it should. The questions were as follows:
No. 95-1. What make of machine gun ia being supplied to the Canadian Expeditionary Forces?
2.	How many machine guns are provided foi each infantry battalion?
3.	Have the infantry battalions now in Britain, Belgium and France been supplied with their full complement of machine guns?
4.	Are the infantry battalions now in training in Canada equipped with their full complement of machine guns?
No. 96-1. Are the infantry battalions of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces now in France and Belgium armed with the Ross rifle?
2.	If so, what is the mark or pattern of the rifle so in use?
3.	With what mark or pattern of the Ross rifle are the infantry battalions of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces in Canada armed, and what is the number in use of each mark or pattern?
4.	Is it a fact, as stated by the Mail-Empire, that 75,000 Ross rifles have been refitted to adapt them to British Service ammunition?
5.	If so, was the refitting done in Britain or in Canada?


PROCEDURE IN DIVORCE CASES.
[Stage Direction]
On the order for the proposed resolution:
That, in the opinion of this House, the procedure under which Divorces are granted by Parliament, and the consequent unreasonable expense thereof, are so unsatisfactory, besides being prohibitive to the great majority of the people of Canada, the same should be taken in . into immediate consideration by the -Government during the present session, with a view to reform-Mr. Northrup.
Mr. NORTHRUP:: As I have been requested not to bring this motion before the House in the absence of the Minister of Justice, I would ask that it stand.
Motion allowed to stand.


CLAIMS OF BRITISH COLUMBIA SEALERS.
Wilfrid Laurier: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, evidence on the claims of sealers of British Columbia under the last treaty with the American Republic.


John Douglas Hazen: I presume that
what my right hon. friend especially wants is the report of Judge Audette on this subject. As there were over 1,600 claims in this matter, involving about $9,200,000, my right hon. friend will realize that there are an immense number of documents and papers. The different papers that my hon. friend wants will be brought down at an

early date; I hope to be able to lay on the table of the House to-day or to-morrow the report which Judge Audette has submitted, and which we received about a week or ten days ago.


Wilfrid Laurier: I shall be
quite satisfied if my hon. friend will bring down the report of Judge Audette, and any correspondence which has taken place since the report was received.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Wilfrid Laurier: For a copy of all correspondence with the Imperial authorities in connection with the purchase of horses, and the prohibiting of the export of horses.


Robert Laird Borden: Some of the
correspondence may be confidential; any that can be properly brought down, will be brought down.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
For a copy of all documents, letters, messages, correspondence and reports concerning a conference between the Minister of Agriculture and certain representatives of the Mennonite Church in or about July, 1873, and referred to in a certain letter dated 23rd July, 1873, signed by P. M. Lowe, secretary of the Department of Agriculture, and addressed to Messrs. David Klassen, Jacob Peters, Heinrich Wiebe and Cornelius Toews, delegates from Southern Russia.-p-Mr. MoCraney.
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, evidence of witnesses at the investigation, and reports, thereon, in relation to the claim of Alexander D. Doucet, of Beresford, N.B., for cattle killed on the Intercolonial railroad on May 25, 1915.- Mr. Turgeon.
For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other papers and documents in the possession of the Department of Public Works relating to a request made by the Nova Scotia Historical Society for permission to place a memorial tablet commemorating the late Reverend Dr. James MacGregor, on the post office building, New Glasgow, N.S.-Mr. Sinclair.
For a return showing a copy of the prosp-*' tus, rates of interest, the effec*i-.'e interest, the net yield, commission charges, printing charges and other charges, in connection with the Government Domestic Loan of one hundred million dollars, and also in connection with the loan of forty-five million dollars made at New York in 1915.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the amounts expended by the Post Office Department for that part of the present fiscal year ending December 31, 1915, under the following subheads Conveyance of mails by land; conveyance of mails by railways; conveyance of mails by steamboats; making and repairing mail bags, locks, etc.; rural mail boxes, salaries, travelling expenses, manufacturing postage stamps and postage notes, tradesmen's bills, stationery,
[Mr. Hazen.j
printing and advertising miscellaneous burse-ments, ad maintenance of the service in the Yukon. Also showing the revenue for the same period under the various subheads of revenue mentioned in appendix "A" of the report of the Postmaster General for the year ending 31, 1915.

Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return of all sums of money expended, respectively, during the present fiscal year by the Department of Public Works chargeable to capital account, for public buildings, and harbours and rivers, by provinces, designating in detail the purposes of such expenditure.- Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing all sums of money expended during the present fiscal year to December 31, 1915, by the Department of Public Works, respectively, for public buildings, harbours and rivers, roads and bridges, telegraph and telephone lines, dredging and for miscellaneous purposes, chargeable to income, showing said expenditure under the above headings and by provinces. Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all correspondence between the Department of Militia and Defence or any of its branches and the Department of Agriculture, in reference to the using of the immigration or quarantine buildings at McNab's island and Lawlor's island, Halifax, N.S., for military purposes, and particularly for their use by the 63rd Regiment, overseas contingent.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all correspondence with the Imperial authorities respecting legislation by the Parliament of United Kingdom, in answer to the petition of the Canadian Parliment asking for amendment of the British North America Act with reference to the Senate.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
For a report showing the apportioning of electoral polling divisions in Manitoba, made by judges under authority of the Dominion Elections Act, 7-8, Edward VII, Chapter 26.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
For a copy of the Order in Council or department order dismissing Mr. Bayfield from the position of Superintendent of Dredging in British Columbia; and also Order in Council or departmental order appointing J. L. Nelson in his place.-Mr. Pugsley.
For a copy of all papers, memomranda, correspondence, reports, etc., In connection with the dismissal of John E. Hallamore, as Postmaster at Upper New Cornwall, Lunenburg county, N.S.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the number and purpose of all Commissions appointed by the Government since 1911, and the cost of each, together with names of the various members of such Commissions.-Mr. Pardee.
For a return showing the names and salaries of all the officials, assistants and clerks employed in the Intercolonial railway offices in Moncton, including the assistant superintendent's office, dispatcher's office, station and freight house, the names and salaries of the foreman employed in each of the shops, and also the names of all officials, clerks, engine drivers and conductors who have been retired and placed on the pension list since the first of January, 1915, with the amount of the annual retiring allowance to each.-Mr. Copp.
For a copy of all papers in connection with the appointment of LSon Roy as interpreter in

the Department of the Interior; and also a copy of the Order in Council, documents and correspondence relating to his dismissal.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier. >
For a copy of all Orders in Council or Departmental regulations, and amendments thereto, relative to the enlistment for Overseas Service of employees of Departments of Government and the matter of their departmental pay while under enlistment.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all letters, correspondence, memoranda, Orders in Council, etc., relative to the Transatlantic Mail Service for the winter season 1915-16, and passing between the contractor company and any Departments of Government or Minister of the Crown.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all correspondence, inquiries, evidence, reports by departmental officials or Orders in Council, relative to the dismissal of Clifford G. Brander of the Customs Preventive Service at Halifax, N.S.-Mr. Maclean (Halifax.)
For a copy of all evidence, correspondence, reports, memoranda or Orders in Council, relative to the retirement or dismissal from the customs service at the port of Halifax, of A. J. Crosby, Thomas Lynch and J. B. Naylor.- Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the names of all medical officers appointed and employed for immigration or quarantine purposes at Halifax, St. John, Quebec, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Victoria, together with the date of ap: pointment of each, their salary, and in each case designating whether they or any of them are still in the service of the Government, and whn not, the date when the service ceased.- Mr. Maclan (Halifax).
For a copy of all correspondence, evidence, reports, memoranda and Orders in Council relative to the dismissal of Charles McCarthy from the customs service at the port of Halifax, and in respect to his restoration to office.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all correspondence, evidence, official reports, memoranda and Orders in Council, in connection with an investigation or inquiry into the conduct of any officials of the customs service at the port of Halifax, N.S., in the latter part of 1915 by Mr. Busby, inspector of customs.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the number of subscribers to the Government Domestic Loan of one hundred million dollars which were in the sum of $1,000 or under, and the number of other subscriptions in multiples of $1,000.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a copy of all tenders, offers, letters, telegrams, engineers' reports and other documents relating to the construction of a breakwater or boat harbour at North Lake, Prince Edward-Island.-Mr. J. J. Hughes.
For a copy of all Orders in Council, letters and correspondence which led to the convening of the conference of local governments which took place in Ottawa during the month of October last; together with all the proceedings and resolutions of the said conference.- Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
For a statement showing the quantity of wheat shipped month by month, during the
calendar years 1914 and 1915, from Winnipeg to Fort William and Port Arthur, and by what railways; to Duluth by the Canadian Northern railway or allied system; to Minneapolis and St. Paul by the Canadian Pacific railway, to the seaboard by rail over Canadian territory ; and to American ports over American railways.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
For a copy of all correspondence between the Department of Marine and Fisheries, or any department of Government, and the Pilot Commissioners of the harbour and district ^ of St. Anns, in the county of Victoria, during the years 1914 and 1915, in respect to the removal or dismissal of Daniel Buchanan from the office of pilot of said harbour and district. -Mr. McKenzie.
For a return showing how many rural mail delivery routes have been opened during the last fiscal year, in what counties, and at what cost to each county.-Mr. Lemieux.
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or other communications between the officers of the customs at I^orth Sydney, N.S., or any of them, and the Department of Customs, in respect to the renting of a room or rooms for the purposes of the said department at North Sydney.-Mr. McKenzie.
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams duties rebated to importers during the present fiscal year up to December 31, 1915, with the particulars thereof.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the revenue collected during the present fiscal year up to December 31, 1915, from the importation of the following classes of dutiable articles, and under the divisions of general tariff, preferential tariff, and surtax tariff, together with the quantities and values of such importations: iron ore, iron and steel and manufactures of iron and steel; cotton and cotton manufactures; leather and manufactures of leather; wool and manufactures of wool; coal; manganese; zinc; copper, meats; eggs and butter.
Where any of the above items are numerously subdivided in the customs return, the principal items of imports as to quantity, value and revenue need only be given.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
For a return showing the names and post office addresses of all applicants for bounty under the Deep Sea Fisheries Act, from the districts of Ecum Secum, Marie Joseph, Spanish Ship Bay, and Liscombe, county of Guysbor-ough, N.S., for the years 1912, 1913, 1914 and 1915, distinguishing between applications that have been accepted and the bounty paid, and those that have been rejected, and also the reasons for such rejections, if any.-Mr. Sinclair.
For a copy of all papers and correspondence respecting the expropriation of Joseph Griffin for land at Valcartier, Quebec.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Rouville) moved:: That this House recognizes the necessity for immediate national action to cope with new and complex conditions arising after the war and emphasizes the urgent need for .a system of National Labour Bureaus.

Europe of those going back to live permanently there?
"5. How great will be the movement of those going back to Europe temporarily after the war to look after their relatives, or through sentiment to view the destruction of their early homes, etc., and who will return to this country after a short visit?"
By this means the Immigration Committee believes it may obtain information which will set the current of our thought and action toward the conditions that will follow the war, and which will lead to intelligent means of dealing with them, with some relation to their causes. We are a little behind by way of thinking that we can deal with any new problem by legislation. If we depend upon this method of dealing with the after-war exigencies here, we shall be framing a poor substitute for the patient, constructive and co-operative efforts which the condition demands.
Therefore, in the United States, by the admission of the President of the Chamber of Commerce, John Fahey, they are already facing this problem and trying to remedy it. But the United States' problem is also, in a perhaps even greater degree, Canada's problem. Speaking on the Address at the opening of the session, addressing myself to the leader of the Government, I said:	_
What reliable nation-wide organization does Canada possess to deal with the following gigantic,problems at the close of the war? The replacing of returned troops in suitable occupations, the readjustment of dislocated industrial conditions and the transference of workers from war industries to normal industrial training ; the industrial training and technical equipment of potential citizens to meet the strenuous and fierce competition for industrial and commercial expansion; the handling of the stream of immigration which will set in when peace is concluded; the replacing of interned aliens from concentration camps throughout the country.
It seems to me that in the above words I gave a resume of the situation which will confront us very shortly.
Mr. John Fahey speaks of technical education. I do not intend to dilqte on that subject as I have a motion on the Order Paper which will come up later on, but everyone will admit, with me, that this question of technical' education is more acute to-day than ever before; and if Canada is anxious to play her part in coming world events, the Minister of Labour will have to give effect at an early date to the recommendations contained in the very able report published by the commission two years ago.
In view of the present conditions in Canada and the prospective unemployment, it is very urgent that Labour Bureaus to which I have referred in my motion should be established. I referred a moment ago 
to the concluding words of Lord Shaugh-nessy. The conditions to which he adverted will be intensified tenfold at the close of the war when hundreds of thousands of soldiers return, when factories in Montreal, in Quebec; in Toronto, in Winnipeg and elsewhere cease their war work, and the whole fabric of trade and industry has to be reconstructed without a large reserve of wealth to facilitate the process. Sir, the victory will go to that nation or group of nations which devote their energy and resources to industrial training and organization. All the component parts of the. British Empire will share in that struggle, and all must participate in the strain. Is it too much to ask that we in Canada, who are so much interested in the future of our young country should now take the necessary measures in order to meet the serious situation which may arise after the war?


Mr. BURNHAM:: Why in the course oi his admirable remarks does the hon- member say that victory will be to that nation which does so and so? Why cannot he dwell upon the desirability of developing our own resources and obtaining that balance in which alone is happiness?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I hope my hon. friend will give us the benefit of his views this afternoon. They will be welcome to the House, I am sure. I am only expressing my own views and I will be pleased to hear his. My right hon. friend the Prime Minister, in answer to a question of the Mayor of Montreal, the hon. member for St. Mary, stated that there was less unemployment in Canada during the last year or so.


Robert Laird Borden: A good deal oi unemployment a year ago but not since then.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Less unemployment
during the last year than a year or so ago. Let me tell my hon. friend that I have here the evidence of Mr. Barnes, M.P-, head of the Munitions Workers Commission, who gave a statement to the London Daily News on his return to London from Canada last summer. He used the following language:
And yet it is producing in an intensified form some of the troubles of the Old World.
I have never seen in Great Britain such an acute unemployment problem as has been forced upon my attention during the last three months in Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: When did he
say that?


Rodolphe Lemieux: He said that last summer. I have not the date, but I remember taking notice of the statement when it was published. I quite agree with the right hon. gentleman that with the war industries that have sprung up the question of unemployment is perhaps less acute to-day than it was a year ago, but the object of my motion is to meet the very situation which will be raised when the war will be ended, when thosp temporary industries will be dislocated and thousands and thousands of workers will be thrown on the labour market without any employment.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, I do not profess to know the conditions absolutely throughout Canada, but I am sure that during the past four or perhaps five months the representations which have been made to the Government have been with regard to scarcity of labour and not with regard to unemployement.


Rodolphe Lemieux: They may be as regards scarcity of labour for these special war industries, but at all events I do not fully disagree with the right hon. gentleman. I say that the war industries have perhaps settled for the time being the question of unemployment, although there are many hundreds unemployed to be seen in the large centres of Canada to-day. But my motion has for its essential object to bring to the attention of the House and the country the urgency of establishing a clearing house for the labour market, not for to-day but for to-morrow, when thife war will be ended, when the war industries will be dislocated, when the soldiers by hundreds of thousands will be returning from the front, and when the vast flow of immigration will be setting in to the prairies of the West. In that regard Canada is sadly behind other countries just as the United States, admittedly, from what I read a moment ago, is also behind other countries. Why, even such a country as- Spain has a clearing house for labour, and we must not forget that in Canada the condition of unemployment, the condition of the ordinary labourer, whether he is a skilled or an unskilled labourer, is probably more difficult than in other countries, because of the distance between the important centres. Therefore, Sir, a central labour exchange is necessary to bring the unemployed in contact with the employers. For that purpose I believe that a permanent central organization is needed. It is a delusion, I believe, to suppose that all unemployment
will disappear with the return of what we call prosperity or prosperous times. For these reasons: First, in normal times the labour market is being continuously disorganized through the lack of a national policy with regard to immigration, Second, the workers are kept in ignorance of work opportunities at points distant from their places of abode, due to the lack of an adequate system of intelligence regarding employment opportunities throughout their immediate localities and in more remote parts of the country. Third, the labour market is still regarded as an inexhaustible reservoir to be treated much as we have treated traditionally other great national resources. Isolated seasonal trades, lack of training in industrial and manual activities, lack of vocational guidance, and incomplete provision of employment bureaus are some of the continuing causes of unemployment which it is possible to remedy, and which prosperity waves do not obliterate.
A moment ago I was speaking with regard to the unemployed in our large centres. Will you allow me, Mr. Speaker, to draw your attention to the following words which I find in part 1 of the report of the Ontario Commission on Unemployment? I believe that Canada is probably to-day the most favoured farming country in the world; she should attract large numbers of farmers; her destiny is eminently that of a great agricultural country. Yet for the last twenty years or so the urban population has increased at an enormous rate, and has become really a danger to Canada. At page 22, part 1, of the report of the Ontario Commission of Unemployment-


John Dowsley Reid: What is the date of that report?


Rodolphe Lemieux: 31 per cent urban; in 1901 an increase of 63. per cent rural and of 37 per cent urban; and in 1911 an increase of 54i per cent rural, as against 45J per cent urban. My bon. friend from Peterborough (Mr. Burnham) interrupted me a moment ago. Perhaps I might direct his attention to some of the resolutions which are suggested in this very able report published by the Ontario Commission on the unemployment problem. I may inform him that, much to my surprise, I find my good friend Sir John Willison advocating wider markets as one of the measures which would remedy the situation.


John Hampden Burnham: That is all very well coming from people who do not solve the question.
_ Mr. LEMIEUX: This question, Sir, is a nation-wide question. It is a federal, and not a provincial or municipal question. The handling and distribution of immigrants and labour must not be confined to provincial or municipal authorities. By its very importance, it is a nation-wide question. Mr. Philip Snowden, in a letter written on October 27,	1915, speaking of labour
bureaus, said:
I consider that they are absolutely essential to any system of labour organization, and if properly worked they will be a great help and in no way harm the interests of trade union... As a personal opinion I think it is very desirable that such agencies should be set up as soon as possible in Canada. When I was in Canada last year I was amazed to see the private labour bureau and it was quite clear to me that a Government system was a very urgent need.
I suppose he meant that a Dominion Government system was a very urgent need.
The state of industrial affairs in this country and in the colonies after the war will make it even more necessary. If you had Government Labour Exchange then there might be arrangements made between them and our system to the mutual advantage of both sides.
I agree with Mr. Snowden, who is an authority on Labour, that such problems are not provincial nor municipal, but nation-wide; and in this country they must be dealt with by federal authority. Such problems are interprovincial in their character; they can not be adjusted by provinces or by municipalities. The responsibility of solving them rests on the Federal Government, in co-operation, if you please, with the provincial and municipal authorities- Unemployment and the conditions of industry are not merely local problems. They 
involve, in my judgment, the larger unit of the nation. The unemployed must not be left to sporadic organizations, if I may so term them, such as those commercial employment agencies which generally exploit labour. They must not be left to mere chance, or to optimistic reports which are spread abroad. The u'nemployed must find a way'to a central organization, which is defined by all writers who have studied this question as a clearing house for labour.
Nor should we confuse the unemployed with the unemployable. One day in London, just as I was coming from the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on my way to Charing Cross, I met one of those famous processions of unemployed. They were passing by the thousands, preceded by the policemen of London, who, as we all know, can always maintain law and order. The unemployed were carrying banners with the inscription: " We want work and we want bread." One of my friends of the English Bar said to me:	There are only 25 percent of unemployed in this large procession; rest assured that the other 75 per cent are unemployable. You must not confuse the unemployed with the unemployable. The unemployable-that is, the vagrants, dependents, defectives, inefficients -should be treated by themselves as a problem of ' regeneration, but the unemployed should be looked after by those labour bureaus or clearing houses for labour.
Mr. Speaker, the labour market of this country must be organized, and systematized, and this is the time to organize it. Federal labour bureaus must be established that will centralize all the powers and activities of federal, provincial and municipal bodies. Labour bureaus are not a new institution, although they would be new in our country. Let us take the example which has been given us by other sections of the British Empire. They, are in operation, for instance, in New Zealand; also in Australia and above all in Great Britain. Great Britain, with her network of 430 labour exchanges, covering the whole country from county to county and from city to city, has proved, through statistics issued, the worth of that system, and its ' increasing facilities in dealing with future problems, when the Empire shall be girded wit)i a chain of labour exchanges, playing the leading part in the distribution of population and labour throughout the Empire. Let me give you a few figures, which speak for themselves. In 1910 Great Britain had

82 public exchanges; these by July, 1913, had grown to 430. In 1912, 2,432,000 applications for work and 1,286,000 applications for workers were received, a total of about
1,051,000	positions filled, or 77 per cent of all notified. Ninety-six per cent of all the workers were, found to have repaid fares, advanced by the Government to enable them to reach their positions. In France 162 exchanges have been established since 1910. Germany before the war had 323 exchanges; in 1911, 1,055,000 positions had been filled through the medium of those clearinghouses in Germany.
I said a moment ago that in the United States they were trying to meet the situation which will arise after the war. The experience of the United States in this connection has been a failure. Their experience is a warning to us as to what conditions should be averted in Canada. Sporadic attempts have been made, through the -establishment of 13 state labour bureaus and 12 municipal bureaus, to deal with national and complex problems. These halting, ineffective attempts have been seriously crippled by insufficient appropriations, lack of prompt interchange of reliable information, lack of proper transportation, little or no intelligent public opinion and active co-operation in maturing and administering the labour bureaus and, last but not least, inferior, incapable officials. Let us take a lesson from the errors made in the United States.
I understand that in 1914 two delegations met the hon. Minister of Labour in connection with this very question. Several organizations were included in these delegations. Five provincial premiers, the Alberta Legislature in Committee, the Agricultural and Colonization Committee of the House of Commons, the Labour Committee of the " Senate, associated boards of trade for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, affiliated boards of Trade for British Columbia, Union of Alberta Municipalities, Union of Saskatchewan Municipalities, Dominion Trades and Labour Congress president, Canadian Federation of Labour, Canadian Lumbermen's Association, and many others, were received on two different occasions by my hon. friend. The delegations urged the establishment of a public labour bureau system under federal management. This system of federal bureaus has been endorsed by several large and important organizations in Canada. On June 5, 1914, a letter was written to the hon. minister explaining the objects of the labour bureau, which were stated to be: to ameliorate existing unemployment and to provide practical remedies
against its recurrence; to provide for the intelligent and efficient distribution of labour; to provide a substitute for the present unsatisfactory and in many cases fraudulent and unscrupulous practice's of commercial employment agents. In reply to the delegation of May 18, 1914, the hon. minister said, I am told, that on account of the lateness of the day the promised Bill could not well be introduced until the next session, but that the subject would receive very careful consideration not only from himself but from other members of the Cabinet as well; and that its importance was fully recognized. The letter to which I have referred was signed by the president of the Devonian Society, by the president of the Orangemen's Society, the Ottawa Builders Exchange, St. George's Society, Overseas Club, Sons of England, Dominion Trades and Labour Congress, Ottawa Board of Trade, St. Jean Baptiste Society, Social Service Congress, Ontario Provincial Builders' Exchange, originator Canadian labour bureaus movement, United Protestant Societies of Canada. The Ottawa Journal of May 20, 1914, gives a summary of the answer then given by the hon. minister, as follows:
The distances in Canada render it impossible for the Government to advance travelling expenses
Travelling expenses are advanced in Great Britain and other countries. The Journal goes on to say:
But the minister believes that he'has arrived at a solution of the difficulty by getting employers to advance the money. The Minister of Labour has found that to allow persons out of work, especially immigrants, to get into the hands of employment agents has not been in the best interests of the workmen. He found, after going carefully into the matter, that one employment agent in Montreal had made $10,000 in three months out of immigrants alone, charging them as high as $15 and $16 to get them a job.
He has stopped this extortion by compelling agents to take out a government license, and there is now a regular system of inspection.
Mr. Crothers intends to go still further, and will establish Government bureaus at a number of centres of population. Accurate information regarding labour conditions in the various parts of the country will be available at each office, and to these offices those who desire employment will go. Employers also will be able to secure information as to the ability and record of those whom the bureau will recommend to them.
So this question is not new to my hon. friend the Minister of Labour or the Government. Delegations have been received and promises have been made. I do not wish to accuse my hon. friend of lack of diligence ox attention, but at all events the


COMMONS '604
[Stage Direction]
bald fact remains that nothing has been done.
On the 16th December, 1915, the Bound Table Conference at Montreal was called by His Lordship Bishop Farthing, of the Anglican Church, and'several of the leading citizens of the metropolis were present, also delegates from the various public bodies, both lay and clerical. The conference adopted unanimously the two following resolutions:
1.	That this conference recognizes the necessity for immediate national action to cope with new and complex conditions arising after the war, and emphasizes the urgent need for a system of National Labour Bureaus.
2.	That a deputation be appointed from this conference to urge upon the Government the immediate establishment of a National Labour Bureau system, with power to co-operate with representatives of other cities throughout the Dominion.
I understand that the delegation above referred to was to meet my hon. friend this very day, but that in view of the catastrophe of last Thursday its reception has been postponed for 'a few days.
I know, however, that a petition has already been forwarded to the Governor-General in Council, the conclusions of which embody a system of Labour Bureau®. I do not know whether my honourable friend has taken cognizance of that petition, and in case he has not I beg leave to read its conclusions :
Therefore we respectfully beg to suggest:
1. That legislation be enacted by the Government this session, providing for a permanent commission, who will be responsible to Parliament to organize and establish a system of labour bureaus for Canada. The salient points to be:
(a)	A commission or authority at Ottawa with executive power over the whole of the Dominion.
(b)	In the chief municipalities a small local Board representative of the local council, of the employers and of labour with power in agricultural districts to co-operate, a representative of a farmer's association-with the agent of the central authority acting as secretary.
(c)	A strict neutrality on the part of the bureaus m the case of lockouts and strikes.
(d)	^ Co-operation with the educational authorities for the better industrial and vocational training of children.	.
(e)	Co-operation with all the Government departments working towards the control and direction of immigration and labour, particularly the post office in the franking of let-' ters and the distribution of bureau literature.
(f)	The officers appointed to carry out the system to be tested as to business efficiency and vocational fitness by a board of examiners.
(g)	Where necessary, separate waiting rooms shall be provided for men and women, with proper supervision.
(h)	Owing to the number of women engaged in industry, it is recommended that a woman

be a member of the commission and local boards.
2. That your Government take such steps as they, in their wisdom, may deem expedient, m order that some immediate action be taken to ameliorate our present conditions, and with greater efficiency and success meet the new conditions arising after the war.
This petition, and the resolution unanimously passed at the Bound Table Conference on the 16th of December, 19X5, - weTe endorsed by the Montreal Board of Trade at their last sitting. The prayer of the petition, which was endorsed, is as follows:
That legislation be enacted by the Government this session, providing for a permanent commission, who will be responsible to Parliament to organize and establish a system of labour bureaus for Canada.
I stated at the beginning pf my remarks that the problem this country would have to face to-morrow is threefold: first, replacing our returned soldiers in civilian employment; second, the consequence of the displacement of the munition workers to the extent of at least over one hundred thousand; and third, a very large influx of immigration. Each of these three problems requires much thought and study, but I think that the salient points which are to be found in such a system of National Labour Bureaus as I have mentioned will be adequate to solving them all. The salient points are:
1.	A Commission or authority at Ottawa with executive power over the whole of Canada.
2.	In every municipality or district a small local board, representative of local council, labour and trade.
3.	Wherever possible, the present machinery to be used and the co-operation of the Provincial Governments invited.
4.	A strict neutrality on. the part of the Bureaus in the case of strikes and lockouts.
Such are the chief features of the system the establishment of which I strongly advocate. I repeat that I thoroughly re-echo the sentiments that were expressed at the round table conference held at Montreal in December last. I believe this question is a vital one, involving our future as a nation, and that it is one which should, be take'll into very serious consideration by the Government of the day. The war has created new conditions; let us be ready for its aftermath.
Hon. T. W. CEOTHERS (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. FEBRUARY 7, 1916 '
Lemieux) has brought this subject to the attention of the House. The hon. gentleman has had a good deal of experience, having been closely connected with the Department of Labour when he was a member of the late Government, and his judgment on a question such as is being discussed this afternoon is therefore of considerable value. I am also glad, because it gives me the opportunity of correcting some misapprehensions that exist concerning this question of the establishment of labour bureaus.
My hon. friend has referred to some delegations that waited upon me some two years ago. I think there were five delegations altogether. They were all inspired by the same individual, who had a personal object in view. He desired a position under this Government at a large salary. The same individual, I am advised, many and many a time waited upon my hon. friend when he was in the late Government, and also upon my predecessor in this office, pressing upon them the advisability of establishing such a system of labour exchanges as my hon. friend has advocated to-day. I do not know whether L should congratulate my hon. friend upon having changed his opinion - since he was in office, and when he had the power of granting the request made by this individual. At any rate, he did not grant the request. It does not appear to have struck him and my predecessor so favourably when they were in power and in a position to grant such a system of labour exchanges.
My hon. friend from Rouville has referred to conditions in Germany, Great Britain and Australia. It is very often said that there is in Australia a federal system of labour exchanges, but such is not the case. The Commonwealth of Australia has made no enactments whatever for the establishment of labour bureaus, but I believe that two or three of the separate states have. In Great Britain and Germany, where there are systems of labour exchanges, they are coupled up with a national system of unemployment insurance, sickness funds, and several other provisions for the amelioration of the condition of the working people. While I do not speak with certainty, I think that these matters are within the jurisdiction of the provincial legislatures, and not within the jurisdiction of the Federal Parliament.
My hon. friend has also referred to conditions in the United (States. In the year 1907 the United States established a system
of labour bureaus, although it is not a perfect one, as my hon. friend has stated. During the last eight years, according to a report recently made, they have provided positions for about 40,000 men. We have in this country an agency at work which, during the same number of years, although we have a population of only eight millions as against ninety odd millions in the Upited States, has provided positions for about
130.000	men. My hon. friend is aware that the Immigration Department of this 'Government has for years been engaged to a large extent in providing positions on the land for the unemployed who desire work, and beginning with the year 1907, when the late Government was in power, the positions furnished have averaged1 about
16.000	a year, excluding the excursions that go out to the West every year to assist in harvesting.
My hon. friend has referred to the conditions which will exist when this war is ended. While I think it is right that we should begin now to think about those conditions, there is no certainty whatever that there will be anything like the immigration about which my hon. friend speaks almost with certainty, and I do not think it is wise at present to arrange by legislation for conditions which may not exist at the close of the war. We are taking steps in that direction not only for the soldiers who return invalided, but for those who will return when the war is over. My hon. friend knows that a Military Hospitals Commission, under the presidency of Senator Lougheed, was established by this Government some months ago. A conference of the Premiers or other representatives of the various provinces was held at Ottawa, and all the provinces were represented with the exception of British Columbia, from which- we received a letter explaining why no representative could be sent. These representatives held a separate conference, the result of which was that they offered to undertake the work of securing employment for disabled soldiers. Since then, as I understand, a provincial commission has been appointed in each of the provinces, and these commissions in turn have appointed local committees. For instance, there is a commission in'the province of Ontario, and I had a little experience of a local committee appointed under that commission in my own city of St. Thomas. The local committee is instructed to meet disabled soldiers at the station on their return, and it provides comforts for them in the meantime,

and undertakes as far as possible to find employment for them. The problem is a very difficult one, as hon. members can understand.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is for soldiers who are invalided home?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes. The Government has shown its keen appreciation of the importance of these matters by referring them for definite consideration and action to the Military Hospitals Commission, called specially into existence- for the purpose, which, under the chairmanship of Senator Lougheed, has already met in conference the Prime Ministers and other representatives of the various Provincial Governments and is arranging a carefully considered plan whereby the Dominion Government, the provinces, and the municipalities will be enabled to work effectively together in discharging the debt which the country should honourably pay to the men who have risked their lives in the defence of the Empire.
It has not been overlooked that the conclusion of the war may give rise to other economic problems in 'Canada, plans to meet which may well be in course of prepartion at the present time, and the Government has created a body known as the Economic Commission, which, again under the chairmanship of Senator Lougheed, is giving careful consideration to, those matters with a view to advising, how best this Dominion may be enabled to meet economic emer* gencies.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the principal
object of this Economic Commission? Is it to meet such contingencies as that of the dislocation of war industries, when the war is ended?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The Order in Council appointing this commission sets forth fully the different branches of work they are to engage in. One, for instance, is immigration; another is settlement on the land; another is taking care of the soldiers when they return at the end of the war. I have not it under my hand, but if I can procure a copy for my hon. friend, I have no doubt he will read it with interest.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has it been laid on the table of the House?


Robert Laird Borden: It was laid on the table the Monday after the House met.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The commission is gathering from many sources important in-

formation and expert advice, and it will be better able to frame a conclusion when this portion of its work is completed. In addition to the work the immigration offices are doing throughout the country, locating on an average 16,000 men a year, as compared with an average of 5,000 in the United States under their system, some of our provinces have already established labour bureaus. They have not gone into it very thoroughly yet, but if my hon. friend has read the report of the commission appointed by the Government of Ontario to inquire into the question of unemployment, he will remember that they recommend a system of provincial labour exchanges. They indicate hope that at some future time, when the various provinces have established similar exchanges, the whole may be linked up, with Ottawa as a sort of clearing-house.
My hon. friend has referred to statements of an officer of the Trades and Labour Council, who was present at one of the delegations referred to, but if he will consult that gentleman I think he will find that he is not in favour of those bureaus at-all. The Trades and Labour Congress passed a resolution at its last annual meeting; and if I remember well, they passed a similar resolution at their previous convention, not saying in so many words that they were opposed to a national system or to a provincial system of bureaus, but declaring that they were in favour merely of a municipal system of labour exchanges.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was not present when the delegation waited upon the Government two years ago, but I was present the other day at a meeting in Montreal of the Montreal Trades and Labour Council, at which a representative of the Dominion Trades and Labour Congress, Mr. Foster, was present, and that gentleman gave support to the proposal I have read.
MJr. CROTHERS: He is only one member; but the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, when it met last summer at Vancouver, and the year before, when it met at St. John, passed a resolution in favour of municipal labour exchanges. I know Mr. Foster very well; he resides in Montreal, and is a member of the Trades and Labour Council there. But the Trades and Labour-Congress of Canada, perhaps the largest body of wage-earners in the Dominion, is opposed to a national-system of labour exchanges.
I was pointing out that the Dominion immigration offices are locating about three

times as many workers, with a population of eight millions, as the system in operation in the United States is locating with a population of a hundred millions. We have some labour exchanges established in the various provinces. They are not very completely at work yet. We have municipal exchanges in several places, and we also have a large number of private exchanges.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: When the House rose at six o'clock, I had referred to some of our facilities for the distribution of labour. I had pointed out that our immigration officials last year had placed 17,250 labourers, and that in the year 1914 they had placed 17,350; that something had been done in the way of developing provincial labour exchanges, and that the prospects were that there would be a very much greater development in the near future; that we have municipal bureaus that are doing a good deal in this direction; that the Trades and Labour Congress favour municipal bureaus and not provincial or Dominion bureaus; that under our system of distribution of labour, a very much larger number of labourers have been placed during the last eight years, in fact, three times as many, as have been placed in the United States under a system which they adopted in 1907. Undoubtedly there is much valuable work to be done in coordinating and systematizing the work of these agencies. This, however, is a work which falls in the first place on the provincial authorities, under whose authority these agencies have been established and are or may be licensed, inspected and regulated. The Dominion Government seeks opportunities of co-operating to the same end, and from this point of view availed itself three years ago of its powers under the Dominion Immigration Act to bring private employment agencies under a system of Dominion inspection, in so far as the agencies might deal with immigrants. This action was taken because of cases which had come to light, in which immigrants had been victimized by these agencies. Enforcement of the new regulation is believed to have worked very effectively for the protection of immigrants. Otherwise the agencies remain subject to provincial control.
There are besides numerous agencies of a voluntary or semi-philanthropic nature, such as the employment bureaus of the Y.M.C.A., Y.W.O.A., Salvation Army, etc.
The Department of Labour, though not exercising or claiming any jurisdiction over these various classes of labour exchanges, is endeavouring gradually to establish a system by which monthly reports are secured from them,- the results of which are tabulated and printed from month to month in the Labour Gazette. For instance, for the month of November last, nine employment bureaus, provincial or municipal, reported 4,668 vacancies notified and 3,782 persons placed; twelve Salvation Army labour bureaus reported the distribution of 1,402 casual jobs to 890 persons,, and Y.W.C.A. officers reported 1,217 vacancies notified and 253 women and girls placed. It is hoped to develop this system of reporting, and it is not impossible that, by keeping in this way and otherwise closely in touch with labour distribution agencies, opportunities may. be found where the facilities of the federal authorities may be advantageously exercised. While, however, there is apparent advantage in the coordination, so far as may be possible, of the various and numerous classes of agencies now working to the same end, there is perhaps some ground for the view that the assumption by the Dominion of practically all responsibility with reference to the-distribution of labour, in the manner suggested in many published statements on this subject, would lead to a cessation of the excellent work resulting from existing enterprises, particularly those of provincial and municipal bureaus.
In conclusion, it may be said that unemployment is less at the present time than normally; existing facilities in labour distribution are large and of a nature permitting extension as occasion requires. The Government is not unmindful that the future may bring emergencies, means to meet which are a matter of careful and immediate consideration.
The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) spoke of unemployment. There is practically no unemployment in Canada to-day. Many employers are looking for labourers and are unable to find them in as large numbers as they desire. In the respect things are very different from what they were fifteen months ago. About a year or fifteen months ago there was greater activity in the direction of efforts to establish these labour exchanges than

there is now. One can easily see that with conditions as they were fifteen months ago, that is with a surplus of labour everywhere, so that there was no place where you could direct one hundred men to go and find work, these labour bureaus would be of no use; and, when there is a scarcity of labour you do not need any labour exchanges. To-day no man who is able and willing to work need he idle-and that is to a large extent the case at all times. There are exceptions, but as a rule the man who is out of work does not want to work. We had some. experience of that kind in Ottawa a year ago, when we had sixty-four bona fide applications from farmers in the Ottawa valley for men to go out and work on the farms, yet during the whole winter we could only find fifteen men who would go to fill sixty-four,places. There were scores of men going to the city hall every morning to get a loaf of bread, but they would not go out to work for the farmers at $20 a month and their board. I know of a case where a man offered to hire fifty men out of work and to give them $20 a month and board and lodgings. But they said: No, we prefer to remain here and to go to the city hall every morning and get a loaf of bread to working on a farm for $20 a month and our board. My hon. friend referred to the problem of getting men on the land at the close of the wa!r- We will have an opportunity to discuss that on another motion to be proposed by the hon. gentleman. But it seems to me, that the important problem that will face us when the war is over, will be to get men upon the land where they will cause two bushels to grow where there is only one growing now. That is the effort we shall have to make. We do not want to firing men to this country who will go into the cities, who know nothing about the land and do not want to work on the land. As I have said, our great problem will be to get men upon the land, to make land productive which is not productive now. Of course we have fish and timber and minerals in this country, but I believe that our richest natural resource is the soil and -that it is the duty of the people of Canada to see to it that our great open, vacant spaces are filled up with men who will produce something out of ground that is now producing nothing.
My honourable friend referred to technical education, hut that subject also will be discussed on another motion of my hon-

ourable friend's, so I shall not deal with it now.


Mt. ALPHONSE VERVILLE (Mai&on-neuve):: Mr. Speaker, as a representative
of labour, organized labour especially, I will say at the outset that we do not want these employment bureaus. There are many reasons for that position, but they are too long, to enumerate. From the information I have gathered from members of the House of Commons in Great Britain, and from other Dominions, this system is not working as well as it it is supposed to be in those parts of the world. We came to the conclusion that it would 'be one of the finest political machines that could be invented fox a political party. Of course it may not be looked upon in that way by all, but I know it could be worked in that way and my honourable friends on both sides of the House know that too.
I wish to speak especially on the question of non-employment and I may say at once that I do not quite agree with the Minister of Labour in respect to non-employment. I will admit that there are fewer men walking the streets to-day than there were a year ago, but we must bear in mind the positions in which many of these men have been placed. A great nrany men who were receiving a living wage prior to fifteen months ago, have had today to accept half a living wage. Many who were working for about $3 per day eighteen months ago are working for $1.75. There is no doubt that the number walking around the streets is less now than it was then, but we must remember that these men have been forced by circumstances which we all appreciate to accept positions altogether inferior, so that they have not now the same power to buy the necessities of life for their families. That is probably why we do not see so many men walking the" streets to-day. We must also bear in mind that great numbers of men 1-eft the country ait the outset of the war, and two and a half or three months afterwards there might have been a sudden shortage in the supply of labour. I have always noticed, in my experience in life, that if employers of labour want men, even for two or three weeks, they have it published in the newspapers all over the country that there is a big shortage of labour. It is not a question of how long they intend to employ those labourers; it is a question of .employing them there and then; it is not a question of what they are going to do after the work, however short

it may be, is over. In the large cities to-day -I know that there are some in Toronto, and also in Montreal-there are men asking every day for positions. They say: can you find me a position, at labouring or anything at all. Of course there are positions in connection with shell making and so on, but I take this occasion to state that if one of those men does not happen to have a recommendation from one who supports the Government he does not get the job.


Mr. ROGERS:: I would like my hon.
friend to give us some names or some evidence in support of that statement, because I do not think it is a correct statement. The Government are taking no part of any kind or description in the making of shells. I think that is a very unfair statement to make.


Alphonse Verville: I can give my hon.
friend names and places. I am stating exactly what happens. I do not say the Government aTe responsible; I do not know that. I am not accusing the Government when I say that a man who does not have a recommendation from one who supports the Government cannot get a position. I do not say that the Government have given instructions to that effebt.


Robert Rogers: Give us a case in point.


Alphonse Verville: I will give to my hon. friend privately or publicly, next week if he likes, the names and places. Whether it is the fault of the manager of the works or of some subordinate, I do not know. I am not going into these details now, but I have come to the conclusion that if one of those poor men wants to get a job anywhere he has to see his own member and get a lettter of recommendation. I am merely stating a fact, and my hon. friend will correct me if I am wrong, when I say that there are a certain number of men unemployed in the cities at the present time. It is quite a problem I know. I could never see that it was possible to prevent men from getting positions if the men were really wanted.
This question of unemployment is going to be one of the most acute questions that ever came before any Parliament in any country 'in the world. So far as immigration is concerned, I do not anticipate that we are going to get the very big influx of immigrants that some people expect. That is my personal view. I cannot help wondering how many men will be left in the home land after the war is over. At the present
time there are organized in Britain and also in France institutions to prevent if possible immigration, .because they recognize that after the war everything will have to be reconstructed. Therefore, I do not anticipate the big influx of immigrants that others do. My view is that it is the men at home that we shall have to look to. Industries . connected with construction work have practically ceased operations during the past two and a half years, and the trades connected with construction are the trades that we base our opinions upon. I admit that many of the men who were employed in construction work are now engaged in other industries, such as making shells and munitions of war, but after these industries stop we will have a tremendous number of men out of work. Probably by that time the country may be in a position to provide public works to em-' ploy the greater part of those men; it will probably come to that, 'but it is a very big problem to face.
I want to come back to the question of employment bureaus. Where they are controlled by private individuals, these employment bureaus are' absolutely wrong. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour knows that in the city of Montreal some of the individuals running those private institutions were dragged before the courts for levying exorbitant charges on the men. They used to send the men to places where there were no position^ to fill. I claim that every one of these institutions should be abolished. I have no objection, .and the labour men of this country have no objection-I am speaking now for organized labour-to municipal bureaus if they can work in harmony with the different provinces, because they form a kind of family circle in which the problem can, be handled very much better than by private individuals. We have a municipal bureau and a provincial .bureau in Montreal, and both work in harmony. I can assure you, Sir, that they are not .strike-breaking bureaus. What organized labour fears, and rightly fears, from their experience, is that if those bureaus were established by the Federal Government throughout Canada, it would be an easy matter, four or five or six months before some labour trouble threatened, to send a number of men as strikebreakers.
My hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Le-mieux) made a reference to the attitude of the Trades and Labour Congress. I am sorry to say that he must 'have .been mis-



informed. The president of the Trades and Labour Congress may have said, speaking as an individual, that he "was in favour of employment bureaus, but if 'he made that statement he had no right whatever to speak for organized labour in this country. My hon. friend attended the meeting in Montreal. I was asked to attend that meeting, but I would not go. He attended that meeting, hut he was non-committal. The president of the Trades and Labour 'Congress had no right to commit the labour men in that respect, and I do not suppose he did to the extent which my hon. friend imagined. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour spoke at the different associations that at the present time operate as bureaus,
/ and he mentioned the Salvation Army and other organizations. I would advise the Salvation Army to keep to their spiritual work and not to bother about placing people at work. It would be a great deal better for the working men of this country if they did so, because experience has proved that these people were more interested in getting so much per head some few years ago, if not now, than in where the men were to go. If we -are going to solve this precious problem, if I may -so term it, we shall have to face it in a manly way. The taxes are increasing -and hearing more and more upon every working man, woman and child, and I believe, -as many others believe, that if the taxation was lowered, and the people were afforded wider markets so as to enable them to secure the necessities of life, it would be -a -step towards solving the problem of employment.
Of course, there is a school made up of persons who think they know how to settle this problem altogether. First of all, they say that if we want the staff of life we must own all the mills. But after we obtain ownership of the mills we shall have to own all the fields and grow the wheat ourselves; we shall have to own the bakeries, and everything of that kind. Well, at the present time I do not suppose that any government is ready to go that far. That * is why the liberal-minded men of the country have been always in favour of the nationalization of public utilities; and I believe that that should be the first step. According to the last report of the Minister of Labour, the cost of-living has increased throughout the country; the report, issued,
I believe, in August, showed an increase of about five per cent. That report showed what is would cost the workingman with a salary of $800 do live, taking into account
	t
some 28 articles which it was necessary for him to buy. We know that at present there are any number of men who are obliged to accept positions at a much lower wage than they received prior to the breaking out of the war-and the cost of living is still increasing. Rents are increasing, too; though some may say that they are not. What we call the big rents are not increasing, but the economic conditions have forced certain classes of people to move, we will say, to another street, and while formerly they were paying $40 a month, they were forced by economic conditions to move to a street where they should pay $25, but they are paying $27 a month. And a man who lived on that same street and who formerly paid $25 was obliged to move to a section of the city where the rents should $15, but where he pays $17. So you will find that the lower rentals have increased to the extent of two or three dollars a month. Rents, therefore, have decreased for the class of people who can best afford to pay, hut they have increased for those who can least afford to pay.	-
Different associations in Canada to-day, including all sorts of church denominations and benevolent societies, are asking for such a provision as that which is suggested by the hon. member for Rouville, hut they are all asking for something that they do not want, and something that is not wanted by the people who ask for it. True, it is a good thing to bring the matter up and get the decision of the House upon it, so that the people of the country will know once for all what the labour man wants; but if the House passes a measure of that kind they will do it against the will of those who are most interested in the matter.


John Hampden Burnham: My apology for making some remarks upon this question is that I have devoted many years to the study of it. I have been very seriously impressed with the fact that whilst nowadays we apply scientific principles to the study of every other subject, to the economic problem we continue to apply all the old haphazard methods that have endured for so -long.
I was much struck with the opening remarks of the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux). He spoke of what he called the industrial victory, saying that if we in Canada were to do in the future as we should, namely, accomplish some wonderful conquest, or obtain some great industrial victory, then we must pre-


G12 COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
zation, luxury, development, or what you will. But this is something that can be handled only by the people themselves, and the people can handle these things only by means of a central organization, and that central organization is their Government. And unless the Government says: this must be done, and that must not be done; unless the Government finds out how all these units may interchange their affinities and activities so that the different -parts of the body of the state may work together in unison and harmony, they have not accomplished the first step in economic science. It is useless, therefore, to talk of bureaus, or benevolent societies, and all these other so-called agencies or remedies for the public good, when the seat of the disease has not been ascertained. And the seat of the disease has not been ascertained, because the seat of its occupation has not been ascertained. As we all know, there was' a time when throughout the world physical disease was treated according to symptoms. Sometimes the symptoms gave certain ideas to the doctor, and if he was a little lucky he might perhaps hit what was the matter and treat it accordingly. By and by a Frenchman discovered, and a German also, that disease proceeded from the deposits of certain germs. When that was ascertained, it was simply a matter of finding the germ and the deposit and applying the neutralizer. That was scientific; the other was guess work, experi-mentalism, empiricism. From that date medicine ceased to be an empirical science, falsely so-called, and became a natural science. Economic science too must be a natural science. It must find the germ of the trouble, and the body in which it lies, and then apply the neutralizer and allow nature to have its full scope. Otherwise there will be no natural development and, consequently, no permanent development. Surely we have seen to be utterly useless the various theories promulgated since the beginning of the world which were in opposition to nature. Nature governs, nature is clearly and admittedly the expression of the will of God. For men to eradicate nature, to set it at naught, is clearly so absurd that at last the world found it out.
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM: Why not try theology on it.
John Hampden Burnham: I will come to you in a minute. These things have been found out by scientific men at various times, and until this labour problem is determined in

a similarly scientific manner, there is no possibility and no hope of a solution. Theology is, of course, a little uncertain, but I would expect the hon. gentleman to turn to theology, as it coresponds best with his state of mind, which is somewhat chaotic and decidedly nebulous. I would expect the gentlemen who do not give much thought to these matters and who read less about them, who think what is is, and that what is not ought not to be, to ignore absolutely what stares them in the face, what appears in every magazine, what newspapers even furnish from day to day, what cheap text books enable them to learn; and that is: that the age of those things we have been speaking of has disappeared, and a new age has arrived, and the economic problem must be treated in a new way.
To repeat, before I close. Just as in nature and in all science the aim is to find out what will produce a happy state of rest, satisfaction or equlibrium, so we must strive to find out that which will produce in the economic body known as the industrial portion of the -state that equilibrium, that natural compensation which alone can produce satisfaction. Otherwise we can never hope to attain rest.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I have listened with a good deal of pleasure to the philosophic arguments of my hon. friend from West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham). The hon. gentleman's remarks are always very interesting, but whether his remarks will help us to arrive at a conclusion as to whether or not labour bureaus should be established throughout this country is a question. I remember hearing the question of labour bureaus discussed in this House last year, and I do not intend to make any remark in regard to that phase of the question, except to say that I have always understood that the object of establishing labour bureaus throughout the country is to enable men to go to that portion of the country where they can obtain employment. - If that is the object, I do not see why the system should not be given a trial. I do not think the Minister of Labour can argue against it on the grounds of expense, because, it being a fact that labour bureaus are established in some of the provinces to-day, all that is necessary would be to establish an organization in connection with the Labour Department in Ottawa. This organization could co-operate with the provincial labour bureaus, and in that way the matter of

expense would be reduced to a minimum. Notwithstanding what has been said by the Minister of Labour to-night, I see no valid objection to the establishment of this system for the purpose of distributing labour throughout Canada.
At this point it seems to me only fair to correct an impression that, I think, was left by the honourable member for Maiison-neuve (Mr Verville) in regard to the Salvation Army. Although I do not know under what' conditions the Salvation Army bring immigrants into this country, I know that they have brought many immigrants who have located in western 'Canada-I am not so sure about the East. As regards the organization of the Salvation Army, I know that they have done a great deal in the way of distributing domestic help in the western, cities of Canada and also in finding employment for all kinds and classes of men.
At the present time the question of unemployment is toot very serious in this country. I understand that in the eastern cities no man need go without employment to-day, and that the siame can be sain of Winnipeg and the smaller cities with which I am familiar in the province of Saskatchewan, although I cannot say anything about the cities of Calgary and Edmonton. Before the war the condition of labour was abnormal, in my own city hundreds, and in Winnipeg thousands were out of employment. We all remember that some 9,000 men

if I am exaggerating the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) will correct me-marched to the legislative buildings in the city of Winnipeg demanding employment and other assistance from the then Provincial Government. In the eastern cities of Canada practically the same condition of affairs existed, large numbers of men being out of employment. -Since the war started, by reason of the manufacture of munitions and also because a large number of our unemployed enlisted for overseas service, we have -not had those conditions of unemployment. -I am not however, very optimistic, as to the condition of affairs in Canada after the war is over. I believe that when peace is declared, when the manufacture of munitions in this country ceases and when our soldiers return, we are going to have conditions of unemployment here, although I do not agree with my honourable friend from West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham) that for that reason w-e should not bring immigrants into this country.
The Minister of Labour said, in reference to the Military Hospitals Commission, that iMr. W. M. Martin.]
this Government is doing something for the returned soldiers, but I understand that the work of this commission is confined to looking after soldiers who are invalided home. I would not for a moment suggest that the Government is not doing wh'-.t it should in regard to -looking after returned soldiers, but it is not entitled to all the credit with regard to the formation of the Military Hospitals Commission, because if -I am correctly informed, the men who are doing the work in connection with that commission are the local organizations of each province, and I believe, when the various provincial representatives met the representatives of the Dominion Government here some months ago for the purpose of forming this commission, the resolutions were framed and all the work in connection with the organization was done by representatives of the various provinces.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I thought I made it
clear that what the various provinces undertook to do was simply to find work as far as possible for the invalided soldiers and to aid us as far as they could in opening up institutions for the blind and the insane, the Government paying them for any patients who might be taken in. The Military Hoe-pitals Commission provide convalescent hom-e-s of which they are operating a large number now, -and they are also undertaking to re-educate men, and do other work of a similar nature.


William Melville Martin: I understand that the Dominion Government is paying the cost of all this work, and I am not finding any fault in regard to that. I believe it is better that the work should be handled by the local authorities, because they can get more Teadily into toudh with the men who come back from the front.
Let me refer briefly to an experience of mine in connection with the Military Hospitals Commission, and in doing so I must refer to the 'Militia Department. Some time ago I wrote to the Minister of Militia in regard to three men who returned from the front, one df them being discharged in September, one in October, and one in December. Each of these men had about a hundred dollars coming to him by way of back pay-I have forgotten the figures because my correspondence has been destroyed. Now, I have been trying for the last three or four months, through the city organization of the Military Hospitals Commission, which is looking after the welfare of the returned soldiers, to get this

back pay, but shave failed in my efforts, and these men are depending simply on local charity. It is perhaps not in order to deal with a question of this kind at this stage, but I thought of it when speaking of the Military Hospitals Commission.
Other commissions have been mentioned during the course of this debate. I do not think that I heard the commission with respect to the High Cost of Living mentioned by the Minister of Labour, but that commission went throughout the country; it was in the city of Regina, although the information which it got in that city did not amount to much, because it did not get into touch with the proper people to give it information as to local conditions. So far I have not, seen any report of the work of that commission, and I hope that the Military Hospitals Commission will show better results. The Minister ol Labour also referred to the Economic Commission, the powers of which are wide enough to include almost everything, so that we should expect some results from that august body of men chosen by the Government to look into questions ol economics. I believe, as my hon. friend from West Peterborough has suggested, that this commission will deal with economic questions in a practical manner.
The present Government might very well make use of the valuable reports submitted in a number of volumes by the Commission on Technical Education appointed some years ago by the late Government. When our soldiers return from the front without employment, and some of them without sufficient means of subsistence and without a trade at their back, valuable assistance could be given them if the Dominion Government, in conjunction with the Provincial Governments, would establish some system of technical education whereby these men might be taught some method of making a living.
I wish to refer for a moment to the question of immigration. I do not agree with my hon. friend from West Peterborough when he says that there are too many men on the land, and that that is the reason why farming does not pay.
There is a general impression, and to some extent it is justified, that farming in certain parts of this country does not pay. I can advance very substantial reasons for that condition. The reason is not that there are too many men on the land, but that in the part of the country I come from farmers are too much hedged about by restrictions.
fM. W. M. Martin.!
By the lack of free wheat-perhaps; the Minister of Public Works says: "perhaps." But he knows what the people of western Canada think of free wheat, and if the hon. minister told fully and frankly what he believes on this subject I have no doubt that he would agree with me in favour of free wheat. If I mistake not, the Minister of Public Works at one time almost promised the people of Manitoba free wheat, or some kind of free trade with the nation to the south. But we will deal with that later in the session.
There is another condition which causes farming, perhaps, to be not so profitable as it might be, and that is that the farmer -at any rate the farmer in western Canada-pays a higher rate of interest than is paid in any competing wheat-growing country in the world, and a noticeably higher rate than is paid 'by the manufacturers of eastern Canada. The farmer of western Canada who has any honesty about him at all is just as good a risk for $1,000 as is the manufacturing institution for $100,000 or $1,000,000-and many of these manufacturing concerns get tremendous sums of money from the banks, when the farmers in my part of the country cannot get $1,000. The bankers will say that they give every man credit who deserves it. I know something about business, and, having transacted legal business in western Canada for the last thirteen years, I know something of the business the banks are doing. Though the banks are fair as a rule, there are many instances in whidh they are unfair. They do not take the same risks at all with the western farmer that, they take with the manufacturing plants in eastern Canada. Something must be done if we are to settle the West. Our farming lands are those upon which we must put our immigrants, and not send them into the cities, to which immigration has been drifting for twenty years. We must surround farming in this country with such conditions as to put it on the same basis as the business of .the average business man or merchant. If we cannot do this by means of the business and financial institutions that exist now, then, I submit, the Dominion Government, in co-operation with the provincial governments, must devise a system by which cheap money can be got to the farmers on the prairies of western Canada, to enable them to carry on their business at a reasonable rate of interest. This question has been dealt with in other countries; Aus-

tralia, New Zealand, Russia, Algeria, and France have done something in this line.


An hon. MEMBER:: Even Bulgaria.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: And Ireland.


Médéric Martin: These countries have
taken up the idea of doing something to keep the people on the land. Take the case of western Canada. If an immigrant goes in and is to establish himself as a farmer, he must have capital. The best immigrant we have in the West is the American farmer, and one great reason is that he has sold his farm in the United States and the money he brings with him. So he has capital with which to establish himself. But it is impossible for a man to go on the land and get a sufficient outfit without capital. I do not think it is beyond the power of the statesmen of the Dominion to devise some system whereby the immigrants who may come to this country after the war is over can be provided with the capital they need, at reasonable rates.


Robert Rogers: I am sure the House appreciates very much the importance of the question brought to its attention by my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux). Both sides of the "House are most anxious to take any measure, in the public interest, which will assist in preparing for the conditions which will arise at the close of the war. But the hon. gentleman in his resolution makes a definite statement and it is evident from the statement of my hon. friend from Maisonneuve (Mr. Verville), and others who are taking part in this "debate, that there is somewhat of a difference of opinion. With the consent of my hon friend from Rouville and of my hon. friend the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) I would suggest that the resolution be amended to read:
That this House is of the opinion that the Government should carefully consider the advisability of establishing- a system of national labour bureaus to cope with the new conditions arising after the war.
If that is satisfactory to my hon. friends the member for Rouville and the Minister of Labour, I think the House will approve it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I accept with pleasure
the suggestions -made by the leader of the House (Mr. Rogers) in view of the spirit with which my motion has been received. I am sure the Government and Parliament will do its duty when the
question again comes before the House for its action-


Hon. WILLIAM PUGSLEY:: The hon.
member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) has done me the honour to ask me to second his resolution, which I cheerfully do, with the amendment which has been proposed by the Minister of Public Works and accepted by my hon. friend. I am not sure but that the Minister of Public Works would like to have the discussion closed, with a view to going on with other business. It seems to me, however, that the question is not only very important but is well deserving of discussion by the members of this House. It is not often we are afforded an opportunity in this House to discuss these questions of social and economic importance. Not many days are allotted to us for the discussion of private members' business, and especially for the discussion of matters of this character. When these questions do come up we are very likely to he told, as the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) has told us in this case, that the Government has appointed a commission, rather putting it to the House that this shows the keen interest the Government is taking in the matter. The Minister of Labour mentioned the Economic Commission which is to make recommendations to the Government as to action to be taken to deal with questions raised by the war. He referred also to the commission to deal with the cases of disabled soldiers. It seems to me the Government ought themselves to bring these questions to the attention of the House, and ought themselves to deal with them. Some time ago, -when the people thought that conditions were ripe for beginning the work of building the Georgian Bay canal to connect the city of Montreal with tlv Great Lakes, so as to make the most direct and shortest waterway from Montreal to Fort William and Port Arthur, and everybody seemed satisfied that the work was -deserving public support, the Minister of Public Works told the House that a commission had been appointed to investigate the whole subject, and thus the matter was shelved.
And so with regard to the question raised by the resolution. The Minister of Labour says there has been a commission appointed to consider the cases of disabled soldiers, and another to consider the whole state of the country, and to recommend something to be done after the war has been concluded. I do submit that the people of this country expect their representatives in

Parliament to deal with these important questions. Parliament is the great council of the nation. The representatives of the people are sent here from all parts of this country., and I think it is their duty to discuss, and I think the Government should take the lead in having discussed, these questions which are of importance to the future of Canada. Therefore, I am glad that my hon. friend has brought this question before the House, and I am glad it has been discussed to the extent it has. I hope the discussion will continue, because it deals not merely with the question to which the hon. member for Rouville devoted the most attention, that is the question of the employment of labour, but it also deals with the whole question of how the people of this country can best prepare to meet, in a satisfactory way, those conditions which will exist in Canada after the war has been concluded. It deals directly with the question of immigration, to which my hon. friend from Kegina (Mr. Martin) has devoted some attention. No subject is more deserving of the attention of this Parliament than that of the best method of settling the public lands of this country, in conjunction, of course, with the different provinces. I quite agree with the Minister of Labour as to that; where I disagree with him is that he does not hold out to us any hope that he or his colleagues are going to take the lead and come before Parliament with some definite and advanced proposition along these lines. My own view is- _ and, while I have entertained that view very strongly for a considerable time, yet 1 have hesitated to advance it because it may not meet with popular approval-but my own opinion is that the day has gone by when our lands should be given away as free homesteads to everybody who chooses to enter upon them and occupy them.


Robert Rogers: I quite agree with you.


William Pugsley: I am glad indeed to hear the Minister of Public Works make that statement.
Mr. W. F. MA'CLEAN: What would you do ?


William Pugsley: In conjunction with the different provinces, with a view to promoting immigration and the settlement of our own people upon the 'Crown lands, I would have a careful examination made of the Crown lands in the different parts of the Dominion; I would fix the prices for

those lands at what would be reasonable; I would extend the terms of payment over a long period of time, twenty, thirty, or even forty years; I would make the rate of interest low, and then I would encourage the settler who could be induced to go upon the land. I would- put under cultivation a certain area which would be all ready for him when he went to settle on ' the land; I would build him a house; I would encourage him in the early years of settlement in making a comfortable home. And I would take, in the name of the-Crown, a mortgage on his land and upon his improvements and extend that mortgage over a- long period. Sir, it is in the earlier years of the settler's life upon the land that much of his time is wasted. He becomes heartbroken in many cases and, in many cases having become heartbroken and discouraged, he leaves the land and goes back to the city. Under such a system as I have suggested land which to-day is being given away for nothing would produce to this-country in the course of fifteen or twenty years from $15 to $20 per acre, yielding a small rate of interest in the meantime; and at the end of forty years you would have more money out of the lands than would pay off our national debt three times over. And you would be doing the very best thing possible for the settler because, as I have said, in the earlier years you would be giving him an opportunity to use his labour to the best advantage, to make his land most productive,; and in this way you would be benefiting both the country and the settler by reason of the assistance you would give him, I would re-survey the lands of the West so that instead.of having the'settlers separated from each other by long, distances you could have the settlers in colonies, perhaps with roads running like the spokes of a wheel from a central point which would become the social centre of the community, where you would have the store, the doctor, the church, and the schools and the centres of social life. Thus life upon the prairie would not be so lonely for the settler and especially for the settler's wife and family as it is to-day. This, in a very few words, is the course which I should pursue. But my hon. friend from West Peterborough says: Oh, you do not want immigrants. In reply, I say Canada was never so prosperous as a few years ago when settlers were pouring into this country, not merely by the thousands but by the hundreds of thousands; then the factories of the East

were steadily employed supplying western people, the wholesale merchants weie busy supplying the western retail merchants and the retail merchants were busy selling to the settlers and there was prosperity all around.


John Hampden Burnham: My hon. friend refers to one kind of immigration only.


William Pugsley: 
William Findlay Maclean: That is the
American system. The credit of the nation is behind it.


William Pugsley: No, I think my hon.
friend is wrong.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: No.


William Pugsley: That was in the Bill
which was passed by Congress last session, but it was vetoed by the President, and the Bill which has been introduced during the present session of Congress leaves out the provision of national credit. There are a good many members of Congress who are in hopes that they will be able to get the Bill changed, so as to have the national credit, hut they very much fear that they will not be able to do so, and some are in favour of accepting the Bill without the national credit provision in it. I think if my hon. friend looks at the Bill he will see that I am correct.


William Findlay Maclean: There is provisipn made for large deposits of Government money in this new system of banking. In that way great sums of national money can be issued for the use of the farmers in connection with farm credits. But I see the point my hon. friend is making with regard to improved security.


William Pugsley: Will my hon. friends
on the Treasury benches pardon me if I remind them that before the Solicitor General became a member of this Government,
- before he became Solicitor General, he stated to this House that he was in favour of introducing a Bill, and of having it passed by this House, to provide for agricultural credits. There is no one better qualified to draw a Bill along these lines than my hon. friend the Solicitor General. He has become the legal adviser very largely of this Government. He occupies a very prominent position in this House, and no doubt is influential in the Government. But since he has become Solicitor General we have had no word of 'the provision of agricultural credits, no word of the provision of a banking system for the benefit of the farmers. Why is this? Some member of 'the Government might enlighten us, and let us know whether the Solicitor General, who has become a member "of the Privy Council, and therefore a member of the Government, has changed his mind, and whether the Government has abandoned the idea of introducing a Bill along those lines. If the Government has abandoned the idea, and does not intend to submit the matter to Parliament, it will become a question for other members of the House whether they suould press the matter

upon the attention of the Government, and endeavour to rouse public attention in favour of the enactment of such a measure. Of course it will be well understood that a Bill of this nature would have to he introduced by the Government. The most that other members of the House could do would be to agitate for the measure in the hope that the Government would later on see its way to take some action. At all events, if they should not do so during their-they will pardon me for saying it - their short tenure of office.


Robert Rogers: Smile when you say that.


William Pugsley: Then it could be brought to a successful conclusion by their successors.
There are other matters in regard to which this Government ought to ask Parliament to prepare for the future, and to prepare immediately. We should not wait until this war is over. You will agree with me, I am sure, when I say that we should not wait until we have thousands and hundreds of thousands of men coming back from the front, many of them with no work to engage in, many of them who left their occupations to go to the front, and who have no occupation to take up when they return. We should not wait until that day arrives; we should be looking ahead and making preparations. In addition to a broad and comprehensive plan for the settlement of our young men upon our Crown lands, there are surely other lines of industry which ought to receive consideration by the Government. Take the matter which my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries referred to some three or four years ago when he took such a lively interest in such matters. You will remember the occasion, Sir, when he said that he had the smell of the salt air in his nostrils, and that he wanted to assist in the building up of a great ship-building industry. Surely, Sir, we ought not to wait niany years, we ought not to wait until the war is over before we take up that question. To-day there .is a tremendous demand for a mercantile marine in this country, and surely this Canada of ours with its thousands of miles of coast line on the Atlantic and the Pacific, ought to be encouraged by the Government to engage in ship-building. We should proceed with the establishment of a mercantile marine. That would give employment to many people, not to disabled soldiers, but to many people who might want to come to this country, and to many soldiers when they return from the front after the war is over. It would not require 
very much encouragement upon the part of this Government to induce people to establish shipyards upon both the Atlantic and the Pacific coasts. Has the Government thought of this question at all? I fear not, i Sir. I have it from a gentleman in my own city, who would like to take some steps towards the building of sailing vessels with auxiliary engines, that he is met at the very outset with a very heavy handicap. Many sailing vessels which are built in the United States to-day and which are engaged in the Atlantic trade use sails, but they also use the Deisel oil engine as auxiliary power, and they have to pay a duty of something like 35 or 40 per cent on the Deisel oil engine. These engines are not manufactured in Canada, and the man who wants to engage in shipbuilding in this country must pay a duty, as I say, amounting to 35 or 40 per cent before he can bring in the necessary equipment to enable him to build a vessel which, would successfully navigate the ocean. These sailing vessels could be built for a comparatively small sum of money compared with the cost of steel ships. Allow me, with the very best of feeling, to suggest to the Government that they take up this question, give attention to it, and see if they cannot do something to encourage and promote the establishment of shipyards in Canada.
I might go on and speak of many other things which this Government might do, and I beg of them, if anything occurs to them, not to appoint a committee or a commission for the purpose of shelving the question, but to deal with these questions effectively; to submit them to Parliament, to invite discussion upon them. I assure the Government that, so far as the members on this side of the House are concerned- and I believe I can say the same for all the members of this House-any measures which they submit, looking towards the development of any industries in this country, looking toward giving employment to the people of this country and to the additional thousands whom we hope to have before long, will be heartily supported. Proposals on a broad and comprehensive scale will be heartily supported by all the members of this House, and I feel sure by all the people of this country.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The
resolution as proposed originally by the hon. member for Rouville was limited, but there was this to say in favour of it, that it was practical. The hon. member for Rouville evidently had in mind specifically the' matters of immigration and labour

Accordingly, lie ended his resolution with emphasis upon the urgent need for a system of national labour bureaus. At the suggestion of the -hon. Minister of Publio Works, however, the latter paTt of the resolution has been eliminated, and we are left with a pure abstraction. In order to jmake the resolution completely idealistic,
I suggest that it be further -amended to read as follows:
That this House recognizes the necessity Tor immediate national action to cope with new and complex conditions arising during and after the war.
I insert after the word, " arising " the words, " during and,", so that we shall have reference within the resolution to -all the present and future ills which may happen to this country in consequence of the war.
The hon. member for Rouville based his argument this afternoon-I must say I did not follow him throughout the length of his remarks-upon a great immigration into this country after the war. If he or the Minister of Public Works wishes this House to understand' that the new and complex conditions which will arise after the war will be entirely referable to an unusually large immigration, I feel that the resolution is of very little value. I rise chiefly to express in a word or two my views upon the subject of immigration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My motion has reference not only to immigration after the war, but also to returned soldiers, and to the fact that dislocation will take place in the existing war industries that will throw out of employment -a very large number of workers.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I quite understood the hon. gentleman to discuss the particular which he has just mentioned; nevertheless I heard him distinctly say on more than one occasion during the course of his remarks that we should undoubtedly have a very large immigration into this country after the war. Now, I say it is very important that we have some definite and intelligent view upon the question as to whether or not we shall have a large immigration after the war. If we do not have immigration, then the new and -complex conditions which the resolution states will arise after the war will be of one kind; if we do have immigration, perhaps we may have another set of complex conditions to deal with. The statement has been made frequently by hon. gentlemen in this
House during the present session, as well as by many citizens of this country outside of Parliament, and by many of the newspapers of Canada, that we shall undoubtedly have a very large immigration after the war. As I have already remarked, it is important that we know, so far -as it -is possible to know, what is the future of this country in respect to immigration after the war. I have never yet heard any hon. gentleman in the House or any person outside of the House, give any reasons to justify the opinion that after the war there will be any substantial immigration, or even a -moderate amount of immigration, into Canada. It is quite possible-I think it is quite probable-that for a number of years after the war we shall have practically no immigration into this country. I trust that I -am in error-I am not so entirely pessimistic as to be beyond conviction-but I do -say that those who argue that we are going to have a large amount of immigration into Canada after the war ends should give some reason for the opinion.


William Findlay Maclean: The Transcontinental Railway.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I submit -that every -condition rather points to the conclusion that immigration into Canada will be very very -small indeed fox many year-s after the conclusion of the wax. It is not improbable -this is the view held by many men in the United States-that in that part of the North American continent there will be not immigration-, but emigration. I say that the matter of future immigration is a fair matter for inqniry on the part of the Government. It is possible, I think, ito obtain by investigation some facts which will indicate-as to whether the European countries will permit emigration after the war and whether we axe likely to obtain any of it if it comes to this -side of the Atlantic. It is us-eless to predicate public policy upon the probability of a large immigration into Canada after the war unless that probability i-s prima facie established. It would be' a - misdirection of public energy, and, possibly, a misuse of public money, to attempt to provide any remedy for abuses coming from a very large immigration before determining whether we are going to have that immigration or not.
The resolution now-I understand that the Minister of Public Works agrees to my amendment

is -sufficiently wide to enable one to discuss almost -any -matter, and there

are just one or two subjects to which I wish to refer very briefly. One has reference to industrial conditions in portions of Nova Scotia. I have in my mind the county of Cape Breton, wherein are located the collieries of the Dominion Coal Company and the plant of the Dominion Iron and Steel Corporation. There has been >a very creditable and generous enlistment for overseas service on the part of the employees of these two corporations. The enlistments have been tso very heavy that during the past few months, and perhaps at the present time, the operations of these corporations have been very much endangered. The same conditions may prevail in other Canadian industrial centres; they may be applicable to some particular industry in another portion of the country. Notwithstanding the existence of war, this country must pay special attention to production. In order to pay the interest upon our indebtedness, it is necessary to export at least $150,000,000 worth of products a year, and in order to carry on the life of this young nation it is urgent and imperative that the productions of the country be kept to the highest possible level. Just here I wish to say that recruiting should be more directly under the control of the Government than it is. I do not suggest thajt some responsibility should not rest upon the citizens of the country, but I think that recruiting should be controlled to some extent by the Government, particularly in order that enlistment may be discouraged at certain points if the national interest so demands, or controlled in such manner that labour may be transferred from one point to 'another in the event of recruiting weakening the industrial strength of the country at one or more particular .points. This is a matter which, I imagine, may become vary acute in many sections of the country; therefore it is a question deserving the immediate consideration of the Government. The Minister of Labour this afternoon referred to the Hospitals Commission, and the hon. member for Regina (Mr. W. M. Martin) also made a passing reference to it. I am told by those having experience with the duties assigned to this Hospitals-Commission, which is working in conjunction with the Commissions appointed by the Provincial Governments, that the work is not being satisfactorily performed. In my judgment that was likely to be the natural result of control by a Federal commission, particularly a commission of the 
character appointed by the Government. The personnel of that commission consists of very estimable and capable citizens of this country-among the very best people in the country I should think; but they reside in different cities and far apart, and I say it is impossible for this Hospitals Commission properly to do the work assigned to it, and it should be immediately dissolved. A>s the hon. member for Regina has already .stated, the work up to date has in reality been performed by the commissioners appointed by the Provincial Governments, that is, so far as obtaining employment for the men who' have returned from overseas is concerned, and I think that is the only practical work that could have been done by any person. Whether that does or does not include all the work that has been done by the commission, or could be done by the commission, I say that a commission like this, composed of men who reside a considerable distance apart, is not likely to be very successful. I would suggest that there be established under some one of the present departments of the Government, the Department of Militia, or of Labour, a bureau having control of the work which this Hospital Commission is supposed to perform. It would then be possible for the organization in the several provinces to get quickly in communication with the administrative head in Ottawa and have prompt action taken-something which I submit is utterly impossible in the present circumstances. I say-and I am not making this criticism ,in any censorious spirit, or suggesting that, the Government made a grave error of judgment in appointing this commission-but I say that a little experience has proved that the Hospitals Commission as now constituted is utterly impracticable and incapable of doing the work, and it ought therefore to be dissolved.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES (Kings, P.E.I.):: I just wish to .say a few words on the matter from my point of view. The resolution suggests, and the members who have already spoken on it have also suggested, that now is the time to take into consideration the condition that will exist after the war. I think the resolution has been amended to read " conditions that will arise during and after the war." There is one condition that is certainly going to exist after the war, and that is an enormous public debt, and enormous public taxation, and it would, perhaps, be well to consider whether the country is getting value for the

expenditures it is making, particularly in the Militia Department. We know that in the early days of the war the expenditure was very large, and under the circumstances it probably could not be controlled; but now that conditions are becoming more settled it is a question whether the country is getting full value for the exceedingly large expenditure that is being made. I think all will admit that the Minister of Militia and Defence is not a man who values expenditure. While he may have, and doubtless has, many qualities that fit him for the position he occupies, economy is not one of the hon. gentleman's characteristics. In the system of recruiting throughout the country, for instance, there appears to be no well-defined principle. The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) has referred to that to some extent, and I want to mention a few things that have come under my own notice. In the city of Ottawa I see in khaki very old men, some of them seventy years of age I should think. I do not know what military duties . they could perform, nor do I know whether they are drawing pay or not, but I have seen these men on the street, in the hotels, and in the House. Furthermore-I do not wish to be too particular-I have noticed' several members of Parliament dressed in khaki; for instance, the hon. member for West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham), the philosopher, I might call him. I presume he would be able to give good military service. Now, whether these men are drawing double pay or not I do not know, but I say that this is a time for economy, a time when men should not try to make their patriotism pay.
We are asked to consider the condition of the labouring men of this country. We are asked to consider the case of the soldiers who are returning, and who will return in greater numbers after the war is over. But we should also consider the position of the tax payer, who, after all, makes up four-fifths of the population. We know that he will have to bear exceedingly heavy burdens, and we also know as a matter of fact that this war is producing millionaires in Canada. It is producing men who have not only military titles, but titles of distinction, such as knighthoods, which involves a high scale of living. All this is going on at the present time, and it is a serious question whether greater economy could not be practised, greater value received for the money that is being voted so generously by the people of this country for
the conduct of the war. That is a question that might receive consideration now. It is a question that could be considered at any time. It concerns the ordinary taxpayer-the farmer, the fisherman, the miner, the mechanic-the man who is trying to support his family, and who, after all, pays the bulk of the taxes. He has to carry the burdens whatever they be, and the burdens will be heavy, and this country will not again for many years, perhaps forever, be a cheap country to live in. These are conditions that might very well be considered now in order to ensure, as my hon. friend from West Peterborough said, that every man shall give value or an equivalent for that which he receives. We know that this has not been done for the past year and a half; that value has been received for whicn an equivi-lent has not been given. As I already stated, perhaps that could not very well be avoided in the beginning of the great crisis through which we are passing, but it can to a large extent be prevented now provided that the Government tries seriously to prevent it. I thought perhaps I would be justified in presenting this view of the case, because it is of importance and consequence to the class of the community which I represent, that is, the ordinary people, farmers, fishermen, mechanics and men of that class, who have to bear their full share of the burdens that are necessarily being imposed.


Mr. J. D. TAYLOR (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, having listened to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. J. J. Hughes), I share the hope which he has expressed, as I understand him, that this country will not become a cheaper country than it is just now, because if ever I heard anything which, to my mind, is a cheap statement to a deliberative assembly, I heard it a few minutes ago when this hon. gentleman presumed to sneer at the members of this House who wear the uniform of His Majesty. I too, Sir, represent a large population of all classes, of the labouring class, of the farming class, of the artisan class, just as good people, I am sure, as those represented in this House by the hon. gentleman (Mr. J. J. Hughes) and who, I feel certain, does not represent his constituents in the sentiments he has uttered here. I will answer the question which he has asked in so sneering a way, as to why some of us are wearing the King's uniform in this House. I can answer it from my own standpoint;

I can tell him that I am wearing the King's uniform, because I heard the call to duty sent out by my King. I read the appeal of the King to the manhood of Canada, and to the manhood of the Empire, to come forward and do their share, and although it is thirty-seven years since 1 first put G-n the King's uniform and thirty-one years since I was privileged before to give field service to the King, I felt that 1 could, without any offence, and least of all without offering offence to the House of Commons, offer my services again to His Majesty. I have the uniform on because I desire to give an example to the younger men of my community, and as evidence that those to whom they look as their natural leaders are prepared to do their part.
I feel sure, Sir, that there is no service which any member of Parliament can give that will be of more value to the military authorities than that he himself should put on the uniform, thus to show to the people of his district, who are invited by this Parliament as well as by the Imperial Parliament, and by the King, to give military service, that their natural leaders, whom they honour with public positions, do not shirk their duty, but are prepared, when the call comes, to put on the King's uniform and render service in the field as well as service in the Parliament of Canada.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 9.53 p.m.
Tuesday, February 8, 1916.