1915-03-27

REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
Report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, Part 4, for the year ended March 31, 1914.-Sir George Foster.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 108, respecting the Moncton and Northumberland Strait Railway Company. -Mr. Robidoux.
Bill No. 107, respecting a patent of John Milne & Son, Limited.-Mr. Kyte.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. T. White (Minister of Finance) the order for the third reading of Bill No. 76, to supplement the revenue required to meet war expenditures, was discharged, and the House again went into committee on the Bill, Mr. Sevigny in the chair.
Mr. WHITE:: Mr. Chairman, the amendment which I have to propose is to subsection 3 of section 20. It was called to my attention the other day that there might possibly be an abuse of the provisions of this section, under which we provide that action for the recovery of penalties may be taken in the name of the Minister of Finance, Minister of Inland Revenue, or in respect of penalties under Part 3, in the name of the Minister of Inland Revenue, or any other person. It was suggested that this might lead to litigation of a vexatious character. I have been impressed with the view put forward, and, while there is abundant precedent running through not only our own statutes but the statutes of the United Kingdom regarding the imposition of taxes justifying the language used, still, on account of the somewhat far-reaching character of this legislation, it has appeared advisable to the Government that the objection should be met and a modification made accordingly. I therefore have to submit the following amendment .*
Subsection 3, section 20, line 35, after the words "Part Two" insert the words "and Part Three," and at line 36 of the same subsection, after the words "Inland Revenue," strike out all the remainder of the subsection.
The section will then read as follows:
3. All penalties imposed by this Act may be sued for, prosecuted and recovered with costs by His Majesty's Attorney General of Canada, or, in respect of penalties under Part One, in the name of the Minister of Finance, or, in respect of penalties under Part Two, and Part Three, in the name of the Minister of Inland Revenue.

That will ensure that private individuals will not institute any prosecutions of a vexatious character.
Although the debate is, I believe, confined to the particular amendment which I mentioned in moving the resolution, I may be allowed to advert to another matter to which I promised to give consideration pending the third reading of this Bill. It relates to the International Postage Convention. The committee will recall that a question arose as to whether it would be necessary for the public to put an additional war stamp on letters where the postage is already five cents, which is the maximum postage referred to in the convention. I find that the Post Office Department has communicated with the International Bureau at Berne, and in reply it has been advised that letters and postal cards for international service cannot be subjected to any tax or fee or postal charge other than that which is established by the provisions of paragraph 1 section 12-I do not desire to discuss again the question of whether this is a tax or a postal charge. It makes no difference whether it is the one or the other. It is not open to the Government, without violation of the convention in question, to impose an additional tax or an additional postal charge. That is in substance what I stated to the committee the other day.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I certainly am of the opinion that the amendment which is now proposed ought to be favourably considered. This tax is a restriction, as all taxes are, upon the liberty of the subject. It is taking away from every one's revenue, and it may be abused. We know that all such taxes which bear a penalty are liable to be very seriously abused by a class of speculators who make it their duty to see that a man does not trespass beyond the law, and who take advantage of the opportunity if he does trespass. I approve the amendment, but I think my hon. friend would improve Tt IT Ee were to say:
All penalties imposed by this Act may be sued for, prosecuted and recovered with costs by His Majesty's Attorney General of Canada.
Why go beyond that? The amendment goes on to say:
Or in respect of penalty under Part 1, in the name of the Minister of Finance, or in respect of penalties under Part 2 and Part 3, in the name of the Minister of Inland Revenue.
The Attorney General, by reason of his office, is the one who should look after

infringements of the law.- It is not in the province of the Minister of Finance nor of the Minister of Inland Revenue to look after infringements of the law. That is the special duty conferred upon the Department of Justice. I cannot see any reason, and my hon. friend cannot give any good reason, why in one case the Attorney General should prosecute and in another, not the Attorney General, but a minister, should prosecute. My hon. friend is not able to give any good reason why there should be a departure from the principle to which I have referred, that is, that the Department of Justice is entrusted with looking after infringement of the law.


William Thomas White: My right hon. friend has put forward the principle of uniformity. On account of my right hon. friend's long experience in legislation, I always treat any suggestions put forward By him with the greatest respect; but I will point out to him that in this amendment we are having regard absolutely to uniformity. My right hon. friend has overlooked the fact, or it has escaped his memory, that under the Inland Revenue Act, chapter 51, Revised Statutes, section 132, it is provided:
That every penalty Incurred for any offence against the provisions of this Act... if the amount or value of such penalty does not exceed $500, may be recovered or enforced by summary conviction under Part XV of the Criminal Code.
There is nothing in the Statute which says that information is to be laid by the Crown or under the authority of the Crown. Paley on Convictions, page 73, says:
Generally, any person may be an informer, but sometimes the statute governing the penalty allows only particular persons to inform.
The conclusion is, therefore, that any person may lay an information under the Inland Revenue Act for penalties recoverable by summary conviction.
Under the Inspection and Sale Act, chapter 85, Revised Statutes, section 45, it is provided that where the penalty or forfeiture exceeds $40, it may be sued for and recovered by any inspector, deputy inspector or any other person.
A somewhat different policy is provided by the Customs Act, section 266, which is as follows:
All penalties and forfeitures imposed by this Act or by any other Act relating to the customs or to trade or navigation shall, unless other provisions are made for the recovery thereof, be sued for, prosecuted and recovered
100J
with costs by His Majesty's Attorney General of Canada, or in the name of the Commissioner of Customs, or any officer or officers of customs, or other person or persons thereunto authorized by the Governor in Council, either expressly or by general regulation or orders, and by no other person.
In practice what I understand is done is this:	If the informer desires to lay an
information, he gives it to the Inland Revenue officer or officers, and prosecutions are then instituted. Therefore, so far as my hon. friend's exception or objection is founded upon the principle of uniformity, he will observe that we are strictly in accord with Dominion Statutes which have been in force for a number of years. There appears, therefore, no doubt that there is ample precedent, including the Inland Revenue Act itself, for the form of legislation here adopted of allowing a private individual to institute proceedings for a penalty; but in this particular case, for the reasons I have given, and in order that we may "avoid the possibility of vexatious litigation-I do not think that would have occurred-we have thought it well to lodge the right of prosecution only in a minister of the Crown. With that amendment to the Act, and in view of the fact that we are preserving, as I have stated, uniformity of the statutes, it would appear to me that the amendment that I have suggested would be quite ample to meet the objection raised by my right hon. friend.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend is doing the very reverse of what he says he is doing. He says he is putting in this amendment for the purpose of uniformity, and he refers to the Inland Revenue Act. That Act says that proceedings can be instituted by any informer. In this case the minister prevents the informer from laying information. Therefore, he diversifies, and then having taken from the Inland Revenue Act the power of having proceedings instituted by an informer, he refers US' again to that Act. The point is not worth fighting about; but it seems to me that, if this Government is to become a party to a suit, the only one who ought to become that party is the Attorney General. Yesterday, when the Militia Estimates were under consideration, 1 claimed that certain proprietors had not been paid for their land, and I w!as told that the matter was in the hands of the Attorney General. And so it ought to he. This legislation would be simplified if such matters were left in the hands of the Attorney General.


William Thomas White: When I spoke of uniformity, I quoted not only the Inland Revenue Act, but the Inspection and Sale Act, under which any penalty or forfeiture exceeding $40 may be sued for and recovered by any inspector, deputy inspector, or other person. I also referred to the Customs Act, under which the penalty may be recovered " by the Attorney General, or' in the name or names of the Commissioner of Customs, or any officers of the customs, or other person or persons thereunto authorized by the Governor in Council, either expressly or by general regulation or order, and by no other person." It was in reference to those statutes in particular that I spoke of uniformity. My right hon. friend, however, says the matter is not worth wasting any further time on.


Mr. PROULX:: Then, no prosecutions
could take place without the consent of the Attorney General?


William Thomas White: Practically not without the
consent of the Attorney General.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Rir WULFRID LAURIER:: The Minister of Inland Revenue could dispense with tb? opinion of the Attorney General.
Mr. W'HITE: He would not do it.


Wilfrid Laurier: But he may.
Bill, as amended, reported, read the third time, and passed.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES FOR 1914-15.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Royal Highness the Governor General transmitting Supplementary Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1915, was presented by Mr. White (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the Committee of Supply.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Department of Secretary of State-Salaries, $75,300.
["It has made good progress.\nAt six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS."]
Mr. PUGSLEY:: There is an increase
here. Is it due wholly to statutory increases?


Hon. LOUIS CODERRE (Secretary of State):: The increase from $71,725 to $75,300 is made up of statutory increases and a net addition of three members to the staff. In the first division, subdivision B,

there is one additional, at $2,100. This is for a clerkship in the new Naturalization Branch. There is one dropped in the second division, subdivision B, and two in the third division, subdivision A, and there are five additional in the third division, subdivision B.


Mr. PAPINEAU:: The figures given by
the Secretary of State relate to the inside service. I have a statement here of increases in the inside service, showing a net increase of over 29 per cent since the present Government came into power. These figures I believe to be correct, and they show that whereas in 1911 there were 3,195 employees in the inside service, this year there will be 4,177, an increase of 982. The increases are in all departments of Government excepting the Printing Bureau. The figures I have are as follows:
Inside Service.
Number of employees in the different departments at Ottawa, inside service in the year 1911, and under the present Government in 1915, as shown in the estimates for the years 1911-1912 and 1915-1916, respectively.
	1911.	1915
Privy Council Office	20	26Administration of Justice	54	69Department of Militia and Defence.	102	137" Secretary of State.	36	52" Printing and Sta-	tionery	70	46Department of the Interior .. . .	747	897Indian Affairs . .	77	86Royal Northwest Mounted Police.	11	11Office of the Auditor General. . . .	83	94Department of Finance and Trea-	sury Board	92	99Department of Customs . . .	198	245Inland Revenue .	71	93Agriculture .. ..	287	335Marline and	Fisheries	152	143Department of Naval Service..	65	125Railways & Canals	27	110Public Works. . .	271	396Mines	128	212Post Office Department	510	763Department of Trade and Com-	inerce	44	84Department of Labour	27	39General Consulting Engineer to	Dominion Government	2	2Department of Insurance . . .	16	20"	External Affairs..
Office of the Conservation com
mission	
Civil Service Commission.. . .
Department of Public Archives	
_ Total	 3,195 4,177
Increase under present Government, 982.
13
This accounts for the increase of $178,286.60 a year in the Estimates for the inside service. WTe can understand perfectly well that there are many more employees under the Government when we find that thirty-six additional buildings have been rented

since this Government came into power, and that they pay in rents no less than $178,000 a year more than their predecessors did. This is according to the figures furnished by the Minister of Public Works on the 15th and 22nd February last.


Mr. MARCIL:: What is the total amount of the . rents paid by the Government in the city of Ottawa?


Louis Joseph Papineau: The additional buildings rented by this Government represent an aggregate annual rental of $202,148.60; the leases expired represented rentals of a total of $23,880; leaving a balance, the net increase, of $178,268.60.


Charles Marcil: That is merely the increase ?


Louis Joseph Papineau: Yes.


Charles Marcil: The hon. member has not the total amount paid by the Government by way of salaries ?


Louis Joseph Papineau: No; this is the increase in the total number of employees. The increase in connection with the cost of caring for the departmental buildings, which was $63,000 in 1911, is now $175,000. The Minister of Finance told us the other day, when this question of increase of civil servants was discussed, in an attempt to justify this increase, that in 1913 he had the greatest surplus in the history of this country. I understand that this year we will have the largest deficit that we have had, and according to the statement made by the Minister of Finance in his Budget speech, next year we may expect a larger one. The increase in the expenditure, according to the figures given by the hon. junior member for Halifax in his speech on the Budget, is over $6,000 a day for salaries alone. Under these circumstances, I think that if it is not possible to decrease the number of civil servants who are employed in the inside service in Ottawa, this is certainly not the time to increase it. I think that if my hon. friend's department finds it necessary to add to its staff, it should' obtain the necessary employees from other departments where their services may not be required.


Charles Marcil: How many employees are there in the inside service in my hon. friend's department ?


Louis Coderre: There were 49 last year; next year there will be 52. This increase of three is because of our establishing the new naturalization branch which was provided for by the legislation passed la-1, year.


Charles Marcil: Have these appointments been made ?


Louis Coderre: No.


Mr. CARROLL:: The minister has not given any explanation of the enormous increase in the number of the employees in the inside service, and the consequent enormous outlay of money.


Louis Coderre: I do not think
that I should be expected to give an explanation with respect to the increase in the other departments. The increase in the Department of the Secretary of State has not, I believe, been very large. We have had but few increases during the last three years. One of the reasons for the increase is that we have had to cope with a very large number of charters of incorporated companies; I am told that the number is much larger than it was during the preceding year. I am informed also by the officers of the department that the number of returns which it-has been necessary to prepare has exceeded that of previous years, and we have consequently had to add a few employees to the staff. Of course, in some of the other departments coming under the administration of the Secretary of State, increases have taken place; I can give the reasons for these increases when the Estimates for the departments concerned are brought before the committee.
Department of the Secretary of State-contingencies, $16,000.


William F. Carroll: What is the reason for
the increase of $5,000?


Louis Coderre: This increase is rendered necessary by a general increase in the ordinary work of the department.
Mr. PUG8LEY: It'does seem to me that the hon. Secretary of State is not giving a fair and satisfactory reason for the increase for the coming year. These are times of declining revenue, and certainly at this period the minister should endeavour to reduce rather than increase the expenditure. As one hon. gentleman has said, there must he a large number of employees in other department? whose services are not required, and they could very well be transferred to the Department of the Secretary of State if additional help is required in that department. It cannot be true that with the collection of $30,000,000 or $40,000,000 lev-

than has been collected during the past two years, the same number of employees are required in the Customs Department. When we complain of the increased expenditure in these departments, and suggest that there should be a reduction, the answer is given that it would not be fair to the civil servants to dispense with their services. But why should they not be transferred? The work is largely clerical; in many cases it is the work of stenographers or clerks. If the Secretary of State wants additional help, why does he not go to the Minister of Customs and say: I want two or three clerks transferred to my department during the coming year; you do not require them, because you are collecting $30,000,000 or $40,000,000 less revenue than you collected in previous years. Is there any reason why that should not be done?


Louis Coderre: Even if they were transferred, I would have to pay them out of my own vote.


William Pugsley: But the treasury would not have to pay the additional amount. We are asked by the different departments to go on voting these increases. It may be said that $3,000, or $4,000, or $5,000, in' one department does not amount to very much, but when you take all the departments the aggregate is a large amount and we find that instead of any effort being made to reduce in some other department, increases are made in different departments, notwithstanding the depression and the declining revenue and the fact that there must be much less necessity for all of these employees than there would be under normal conditions.


Louis Coderre: So far as my department is concerned the increase is not very large, and I have given the explanation. We were obliged to employ additional civil servants owing to the added duties developing upon the department. Since the - judgment rendered by the Privy Council on the question of incorporation of companies, the companies formerly incorporated under provincial laws believe that they are obliged to come to Ottawa and be incorporated anew under Dominion laws. It involves additional work and additional expense on the department and we have provided for that new expenditure by an additional sum of $5,000 in contingencies. Generally we ask for new employees, when required, through the Civil Service Commission, according to the law. Whether we obtained these em-

ployees from the Customs or any other department or from outside the service we would have to pay them just the same. The only question we have to consider in this committee is whether this department is in need of them.


William Pugsley: Would the minister explain the usefulness of this vote?
Contribution towards publication of International Catalogue of Scientific Literature, $500.


Louis Coderre: This catalogue is prepared by an international scientific society which publishes an index of scientific works and this is our share of the expenses. Copies of the index are distributed to the different countries contributing towards its publication and our copies are distributed among the universities in Canada.


William Pugsley: What is the total amount contributed by the different nations?


Louis Coderre: I could not give the total but I know that our contribution is a very small part of the whole amount. We receive nine copies of the publication.


William Pugsley: It seems then that we are paying $500 a year and receive nine copies of the catalogue in Canada. I think the minister should .allow the item to stand until he secures some information as to the whereabouts of the society and the proportion of our contribution to the total cost of the catalogue.


Louis Coderre: It is published in Brussels. I am willing to allow it to stand. I may say that this item has never been questioned before.


Charles Marcil: Is it published in only
one language?


Louis Coderre: The works are catalogued in the language in which they are published.


William Pugsley: Is the minister satisfied that this is a useful expenditure? If he is I have nothing further to say.


Louis Coderre: Yes, I am.


William Pugsley: You take it on trust?
Expenses under the Canada Temperance Act,


Edmond Proulx: Have there been any applications this year by any counties in Canada to have referendums under this Act?


Louis Coderre: Yes, many.


Charles Marcil: This year?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Charles Marcil: How many?


Louis Coderre: There -are three pending: one in Brome, one in Perth, and one in Nova Scotia, in Kings county, I believe.


Edmond Proulx: Is this to adopt or revoke the Act?


Louis Coderre: This is for a referendum to the electors under the Canada Temperance Act. If the electors vote for it, the Act will be forcibly applied there. There is a decrease of 518,000 between this and last year's vote. The reason why we had to have $18,000 more last year is that we had to get out lists of the New Ontario constituencies, and of course that will not be necessary this year.
To provide for purchase of 600 copies of the Parliamentary Guide, $1,200.


Charles Marcil: This is to provide for a new edition of the Parliamentary Guide?


Louis Coderre: Yes.
Reverend D. R. McDonald, allowance for appropriation of patent ballot, $3,000.


Louis Coderre: This item has to be further considered by the ministers in council, and I would ask that it stand.


William Pugsley: I was going to suggest that it should be looked into carefully. I see this is to pay for the patent ballot acquired by the Government some fifteen or more years ago. There is a controversy whether Mr. McDonald really invented the patent or not. I believe that in 1907 he brought a suit in the Exchequer Court against the Government, but it was dismissed. I think the minister should look into it carefully before asking for this vote.


William F. Carroll: I notice in the Canada Gazette of March 13 1915, a notice that ninety positions are to be filled during the period from the 1st July to the 31st December, 1915. Are these new positions or vacancies caused by deaths and dismissals?


Louis Coderre: In what department?


William F. Carroll: It does not say. It says.
The examinations will have reference to the following permanent positions in the inside division of the Civil Service of Canada, which require to be filled during the period from the 1st July to the 31st December, 1915:
Thirty clerkships (for men) in subdivision B of the third division.
Two positions as stenographers and typists (for men) in subdivision B of the third division.
Eight clerkships (for women) in subdivision B of the third division.
Twenty positions as stenographers and typists (for women) in subdivision B of the third division.
Thirty clerkships (for men) in subdivision B of the second division.


Louis Coderre: None of these concern the Department of the Secretary of State.
Legislation-General-printing, printing paper and binding, $300,000.


Charles Marcil: Would the minister give a general explanation of the work of the Printing Bureau, whether there has been an increase or a decrease in the output, whether the facilities have been improved, and such like?


Louis Coderre: There is an increase in the salaries paid.


Charles Marcil: Why?


Louis Coderre: There is more work to do than there was a few years ago, and we have had to employ more men. These employees are in the outside service.


Charles Marcil: Are these employees in Ottawa, and what class of employees are they?


Louis Coderre: Yes, they are in Ottawa. They are mechanics mostly.


Charles Marcil: Do printers rank as outside service employees?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Is there an increase in the total number of employees over last year?


Louis Coderre: Yes, an increase of about 110 to 120.


Charles Marcil: How many people are employed in the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: About 1,100.


Charles Marcil: How does that compare with four years ago?


Louis Coderre: It is an increase of about 300.


Charles Marcil: What is the explanation of that increase?


Louis Coderre: The output of the Printing Bureau is much greater,
12	noon, and consequently we have had to increase the number of employees. We have been obliged to lease two other buildings.


Charles Marcil: Where are they situated?


Louis Coderre: One at .the comer of
Murray and Dalhousie street and the other on Sussex street.
Mr. MARCH,: Are these new or old buildings?	.


Louis Coderre: One is the old naval building.


Charles Marcil: What is the other?


Louis Coderre: The other is a very good building rented from a man named Labelle. The stationery branch is there and that is where the stock is kept.


Charles Marcil: Is all the printing done at the Government Printing Bureau now?


Louis Coderre: No.


Charles Marcil: What was the total amount of work done in the printing bureau and outside the bureau?


Louis Coderre: The total expenditure for printing in 1912 was $1,105,000;	1913,
$1,274,000, and 1914, $1,597,000.


Charles Marcil: What was the cause of this large increase last year as compared with the year before and the year before that?


Louis Coderre: We work under requisitions coming from other departments and in some eases these have been very large.


Charles Marcil: How much of this work was done inside the printing bureau and how much outside?


Louis Coderre: There was paid for work done outside of the bureau last year $412,000.


William Pugsley: That is more than 25 per cent of the total.


Louis Coderre: Yes, and that is why we asked the House last year for an appropriation for the erection of a new building. We'have not the necessary accommodation to do all the work at the printing bureau.
I have asked again this year for the same appropriation but on account of the stringency it has not been possible to get it. So long as the new buildings are not erected it will be necessary to go outside for some part of the work. It is impossible to do the lithographic work at the bureau. We have not the plant because we have not accommodation.


Charles Marcil: If the minister is so limited in his accommodation how does he explain the large increase in the number of employees? Where does he find room to put them all?


Louis Coderre: I have two new buildings. The number of employees has increased but it will be seen from the figures which I have given that the output has also considerably increased.


William Pugsley: Is that so? While the total amount of the printing done has increased, the amount done outside is enormously large, over $400,000. Could the minister give us the figures for the work actually done in the printing bureau during the last three years so that we may see how one compares with the other?


Louis Coderre: The total increase of printing work outside and inside is about $300,000, and the increase in the amount paid for work done outside is about $100,000. The inside output is larger than it was before, there being an increase of about $250,000 a year.


William Pugsley: Does the minister think that this inside increase requires the addition of 300 employees ?


Louis Coderre: These 300 employees have been brought in during different years.


William Pugsley: Only as political necessities?


Louis Coderre: No; we have brought them in during the last three years. With the increase in the number of employees there has been a large increase in the output of the printing bureau.


Charles Marcil: Are these employees kept on during the whole year or are they laid off at certain seasons of the year ?


Louis Coderre: I have not yet been able to put them out.


Charles Marcil: The minister has a heavy job before him.


Louis Coderre: Yes, it is not because I should do it, but it is because we need them all the year round. During the session, when night work is done, we are obliged to take on a few men temporarily. Of course, when the session is over, they have to go. These are the only exceptions.


Charles Marcil: Is the permanent staff kept on all the year round ?


Louis Coderre: The staff is kept at about the same number, because the number taken on temporarily during the session is very small. The work executed by the bureau in 1913-14 amounted to $1,184,185.86, and in 1912-13 to $974,622, so that there was an increase of more than $200,000 for

the last year. In 1913-14 the work done outside amounted to 8412,000, and in 1912-13 to 8300,000. In that case there was an increase of 8112,000.


Charles Marcil: Are the employees taken from all parts of Canada?


Louis Coderre: Yes. They do not come under the Act of 1908. We do not have to go to the Civil Service Commission for certificates. They are recommended by those who know them and by the King's Printer. If they prove to be good, they remain in the Bureau. If they are not able to do the work, they have to leave.


Charles Marcil: Are they mostly printers and binders?


Louis Coderre: Printers, binders, packers, type-setters, operators on linotype and monotype machines.


Charles Marcil: Is the political line very closely followed? Is it possible for a Grit, man or woman, to get into the Printing Bureau? Is it an open shop, so to speak?


Louis Coderre: I believe that the Conservatives are more numerous than they were; but even to-day there is a large number of old hands and new hands belonging to the party of my hon. friend the member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil).


Charles Marcil: I do not think there is a single man or woman from Bonaventure in the Printing Bureau. I am glad to say that the Bonaventure people have healthier work to perform than to be shut up in the Printing Bureau. Is it not a rule of the establishment that no man or woman can get in there unless he is recommended by a member of this House?


Louis Coderre: There is no such rule whatever. It is only natural, however, that such should be the case. With one exception, I have never received any recommendations from members on the other side, but I have received recommendations from members on this side.


Charles Marcil: What happened to that recommendation?


Louis Coderre: The hon. member for
Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) gave a very strong recommendation, and his protege is in the Printing Bureau.


Charles Marcil: He was successful?


Louis Coderre: Yes. That is the only such case with which I have had to deal.


Charles Marcil: Is the Printing Bureau still an open shop or is it a closed corporation so far as trades unions are concerned?


Louis Coderre: An open shop. We are obliged to a certain extent to pay the prices established by the unions outside.


Charles Marcil: Do the rates compare with the Montreal, Winnipeg and Toronto rates?


Louis Coderre: The rates paid in the Printing Bureau are based upon the rates paid in Montreal and Toronto.


Charles Marcil: Are they higher in Montreal than in Toronto?


Louis Coderre: The higher rates are paid.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister expect this year to be able to improve the situation in the bureau by moving to other premises or by enlarging or making a change of any kind, or does he intend during the war to remain where he is now?


Louis Coderre: I have already claimed that it is impossible to get the necessary appropriation for a new building.


Charles Marcil: Is there an item in the Estimates for that purpose?


Louis Coderre: Not this year.


Charles Marcil: Was there any last year? Air. CODERRE: No.


Charles Marcil: Then the Government has not decided on anything yet regarding a new printing bureau?


Louis Coderre: The principle was decided upon when we came in. I remember having seen a memorandum from the then Alinister to the Council; but last year it was not possible for the same reason that it is impossible this year, that is, on account of stringency.


Charles Marcil: Has a site been selected for a new bureau?


Louis Coderre: No.


Charles Marcil: Then the question is still an open one?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Some years ago-I
*forget whether it was before the change of Government or not-there was a good deal of talk about the small pay given particularly to women employed in the printing bureau. The figures given then, in my opinion, were so small that no person would live on them. What is the

average wage paid to women who work in the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: Two years ago the
wages paid to the women were increased; of course, not very much. The Women had been receiving 75 cents per day for the last 25 years. Two years ago that amount was increased by 25 cents per day. There is another increase. Formerly young girls were paid $3 a week to begin with. We thought that was not enough, and we have been giving them since last year $4 a week as initial salary.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is not the wage in either case far to small? I cannot conceive of any person, man or woman, being able to live on less than $6 a week in a city like Ottawa. It would be better not to employ those girls at all, than to pay them $3 or $4 a' week.


Louis Coderre: Some are receiving $8 a week.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I do not think girls can live in anything like respectability and comfort upon $5 or $6 a week if they have to pay for their room and board. What are they to live upon? What is to encourage them in honesty and industry? This is a great country of ours; and when we employ young women and girls to do work for us, we should be willing to pay them respectable wages which will enable them to live comfortably and encourage them to do good work and to live moral and good Christian lives. 'The minister should do one of two things; either not employ those women or girls at all and let them educate themselves to do something outside of Government work, or insist on good quality of labour and pay them well for it.
Legislation-Contingent expenses in connection with the voters' lists, $8,000.


William F. Carroll: The minister in the past has been supplying members with voters' lists. I suppose the same rule will apply in future.


Louis Coderre: We have $8,000 for printing these electoral lists.


Charles Marcil: Work for the general election has not commenced?


Louis Coderre: There is always work
going on in connection with the lists. This $8,000 is for printing lists for by-elections. In some cases members want electoral lists of their counties, and on addressing the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery type-written 
lists are furnished them. As to the printing of the whole lists in the case of a general election, that is provided for by law, and it is not necessary to have a sum in the Estimates for it.
Legislation-Provincial voters' list, $11,000.


Edmond Proulx: What is that?


Louis Coderre: That comes under the control of the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery. We have to gather all the provincial lists, as the federal list is based on these lists. The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery receives these lists and pays for them. For instance, in Quebec, so far as the rural part of the province is concerned, the list is prepared every year in September, and we receive these lists.


William Pugsley: And you pay the local authorities?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


William F. Carroll: The lists received by the county clerk in Nova Scotia from the revisors are very often in need of revision, not for the addition of names, but for the correction of clerical errors and so on. I understand that in my own constituency of South Cape Breton, Mr. D. M. Curry, county clerk, received remuneration for this work of revision, which involves extra labour on his part and the employment of more clerical assistants in his office. But for the last two years or more the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery has refused to pay for this extra work. I would like the minister to look into it.


Louis Coderre: This is the first time
the matter has been brought to my attention. According to the law, these lists are paid for on the basis of the number of names. The hon. member spoke of corrections, but corrections are supposed to be made by the local authorities. I am under the impression that under the law the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery pays for lists only on that basis of the number of names, and that the lists supplied are supposed to be properly revised. If the hon. gentleman tells me that some other practice has been followed in the past, I am willing to see the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery about the matter.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Having had something
to do with this matter I may say that the lists are paid for at so much per hundred names, and the Clerk of the Peace is bound to under the law to send in the lists re-

vised. The names are counted in the office of the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and the lists are paid for as the statute provides.


Louis Coderre: I will attend to that and will see the hon. member about it. Miscellaneous-plant, new, $50,000.


Mr. OLIVER:: What is this new plant? Mr. CODERRE:	Printing presses, linotype and monotype machines, ruling machines-printing and book-binding plant generally.


Frank Oliver: What kind of presses does the Government buy?


Louis Coderre: Meihle presses*


William Pugsley: How much of this appropriation for last year was spent?


Louis Coderre: The whole amount.
Miscellaneous-miscellaneous printing $100.000.


Frank Oliver: What is this miscellaneous printing?


Louis Coderre: We have to print the
reports of the various departments. 500 of these reports are supplied to the de-part.ment concerned, but in some cases, under Order in Council passed for that purpose, this number is increased sometimes to 2,000 or 3,000 copies. Last year the Department of the Interior, by Order in Council, obtained 7,000 copies.


Frank Oliver: Does this expenditure
cover the ordinary printing to which the hon. gentleman has referred, or does it cover other printing?


Louis Coderre: About nine-tenths of
the amount is expended in the printing of departmental reports. The remainder is for special printing.


Frank Oliver: Does this vote cover the
general printing of the department, or is it supplementary to another vote? If so, what is meant by miscellaneous printing?


Charles Marcil: Why do you have this
amount separate from the other big vote which we have just passed?


Louis Coderre: This is a special vote
for the general and special reports which I have mentioned.


Charles Marcil: They are printed by the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: It is for the printing
of Departmental reports, either inside or outside the Bureau.


Frank Oliver: Do I understand that the printing done outside the Bureau is paid for out of this vote?


Louis Coderre: If a report is printed
outside, the outsider is paid out of this vote, because, as I have said, this vote covers expenditure for the printing of the reports of departments, general or special.


Charles Marcil: Whether the work is
done at the Bureau or not?


Louis Coderre: Whether the work is
done inside or outside the Bureau. I may say that a memorandum respecting the printing of reports has been made by the King's Printer and will be published in the next annual report of the Printing Bureau, which will be ready next week. According to the report of the King's Printer, some departments are receiving too many reports, many of which are lost. The hon. Speaker of the House has given much attention to this matter, as a member of the Printing Committee of the Housp.


Frank Oliver: Does this $100,000 pay the cost of all the printing that is done by the Government outside the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: No. This is a special appropriation for reports printed either inside or outside the Printing Bureau. For other printing done in the ' Bureau, we have a special vote which we call the Auditor General's account. This has already been voted.


William Pugsley: I think it would be very valuable information if the minister at some convenient time would lay on the table of the House a statement of the cost of printing for the different departments, of what that printing consists, and the appropriations made for the different items. I was under the impression that the vote for the King's Printer or the Printing Bureau covered all printing, but I find that we are asked to vote under the appropriation for Militia and Defence some $70,000 for printing for the Militia Department. That, I suppose, would be in addition to the vote which the minister has asked for; there may be also other items. I think these items should all be grouped under one heading and the appropriations asked for by the Secretary of State.	I am of opinion that a vast
sum of money is wasted each year in public printing. Large numbers of reports are sent out; many of them are never read. They may make useful additions to libraries and places where they may

be referred to, but many of them are wasted' and thrown away, and many of them are duplicated. Take the Auditor General's Report and the Public Works report ea/ch contains many pages of information which are duplicated in the other. I think that a sub-committee of the Government ought to take up the subject and see whether there could be a very considerable reduction in the cost of printing.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have given considerable attention to this subject during the present session because of information that was brought to me from time to time that a great deal of this printed matter which was distributed to members was never used by them. Many of them said that individually they did not want the reports and would not use them, ordering them to be taken from their rooms. I then requested the man in the Distribution Office to go to the members individually and procure a written order from each one stating whether he wanted the reports, and if he wanted them whether he would prefer to have them delivered to him here or at his home. In that way we would know what each member wanted and be able to reach a conclusion. But from the information brought to me I am quite convinced that there is an extravagant waste of money in the printing of reports and blue-books. In the first place, there is distribution of more reports to the members than they ever use; in the next place, these reports are duplicated, issued first in blue-book form and then in the sessional paper form and sometimes in some other form. I tried to procure data to place before the Joint Committee on Printing this year in regard to this useless waste of money, but was unable to get all the data I required until late last week, when it was of course too late for the Joint Committee on Printing to go over the data carefully and make an intelligent report to this House. Therefore I was obliged to leave it over. I have now all the necessary data for the consideration of the committee. As the minister has said, the usual number of reports apportioned to a department is 500; but I find that some departments through one request and another, make that up to 3,000 or 4,000. Then through extra orders of this House the distribution to members is sometimes thousands and thousands of copies which are left lying on the hands of the Printing Bureau or of this House and are never used. Ihere are thousands of copies right in this House; they could be taken away in wagon 
loads; no one wants them, and yet they have been printed by an order of this House. It did seem to me that it should be possible to devise some more economical way of printing and to bring about a reduction in the number of reports printed- and distributed to members, many of whom do not want them. I have all the data to be used in future by the committee, and hope to be able to leave it in their possession, so that whenever they come to consider the question with a view to effecting a saving in printing they will have some material on which to work.


Charles Marcil: I think the House will be thankful to His Honour the Speaker for the trouble he has gone to. He has tackled a long standing grievance that has been a source of expense, annoyance and worry. But if the English-speaking members of this House have reason to complain about the Government literature and printing, what about the poor French member, who gets a double supply? What about his wife at home who receives daily this narcel of blue-books? A member who is in Parliament long enough has either to build an annex to his house to contain ail these blue-books, or burn them as they come in. Has Mr. Speaker given any attention to the printing of blue-books in the French language within a reasonable time? Those of us -who have mixed communities find a very great difficulty in this respect. In my own constituency about one-third of the people are English and two-thirds French. Recently I was asked by two electors for the report of the Auditor General. I sent one copy of the report in English for 1914, three volumes complete. Of the French version. I could send only the first volume of the report for 1913, as the other two volumes for 1913 had not yet been printed. If we are going to issue these official publications in both languages they should be printed within a reasonable time in order to be of any use. Otherwise these French books which come to us a year or two after the date on which they are issued are simply a pure waste of money. When the report of a department reaches the Printing Bureau do they wait until the English edition is printed and bound before starting to print the French edition?


Louis Coderre: That is the whole trouble.
I believe that the hon. member is completely in the right when he says it is purely and simply a waste of money if the French publications are not printed and issued within a reasonable time.


Charles Marcil: They should be issued at least in the same year. I am willing to allow a few months to some of the departments.


Louis Coderre: There has been a great improvement in that respect since I took office. The hon. gentleman speaks of the Auditor General's Report, He says that he has received three volumes of the English report for 1914 but only one volume of the French report for 1913, a year old. The other two volumes are just being printed now. By a new arrangement the French version of the Auditor General's Report for 1914 is now being printed, practically at the same time as the English version is printed. I believe that before five months from to-day the French version of the Auditor General's Report for 1914 will be issued.
Mr. MARC1L: If the minister can bring about a reform in that way he is entitled to a great deal of credit, but he has a heavy task before him. I offer my condolences to him beforehand because he will find some of the departments difficult to handle. My idea was that the translation should be made from the manuscript before it is printed. In some cases the translators explained that they had to wait until the bound volume of the English version was issued before starting translation. The objection to translating from the manuscript was that a great many corrections were made on the proofs, after their return, to the departments, and this would naturally increase the difficulties.. I know there are difficulties in the way and if the minister can do anything that will secure publication in French within a reasonable time he will be doing a great service to the country.


Frank Oliver: The trouble seems to be much more far reaching than has been suggested. I believe the Printing Bureau was established for the purpose of promoting economy and efficiency in the public printing. Before the establishment of the Printing Bureau the printing was all done by private firms under contract and it was said, I believe, to lead to considerable abuse in the matter of patronage. It was hoped that when the Printing Bureau was established this abuse of party patronage and the distribution of printing for the sake of spending money with friends would be done away with, and that the Printing Bureau would give efficiency and economy in the furnishing of the public printing. I have tried to get the facts in connection with the estimate that
I have drawn attention to, but the facts that have been brought out in this discussion show-and it is within the knowledge of every one-that the condition that prevailed before there was a printing bureau at all exists to-day almost to as great an extent as then. So far from the Printing Bureau doing the whole of the Government printing, and thereby promoting efficiency and economy, and cutting out party patronage and expenditure for the sake of patronage, the Printing Bureau is so loaded up with duplicate printing that it is not able to print efficiently or in due time. This is a matter that I think should claim the attention of the Government and of the House. We have a printing bureau for a certain purpose, and that is, to promote efficiency and economy; and we should conduct that bureau so that economy and efficiency would be promoted, and so that we should not be under the necessity of farming out a large proportion of the public printing as a matter of party patronage. For my part, as a printer, I would be perfectly satisfied to see the bureau abolished and the work done under contract by private firms. That might not be the best way; it might not suit the public generally. But I say the work should be done either one way or the other. Either the Printing Bureau should be so organized and so conducted that it would do practically the whole Government printing, or we should cut out this enormous expenditure on the Printing Bureau and get our printing done by contract, just as the ordinary business house does. We have a double disadvantage at the present time.
At one o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Louis Coderre: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move that resolution 322:
Reverened D. R. McDonald, allowance for appropriation of patent ballot, $3,000.
be struck out. This is the item that was mentioned this morning. It provides for the payment of $3,000 to the Rev. Mr. McDonald on a claim against the Government for $5,000, his claim being based on his invention of a ballot paper. This item was put in the Estimates on condition that the Commissioner of Patents would give Mr. McDonald a certificate, which he has not done. We were told that the Commissioner of Patents would give him an award of $3,000 for his invention of the ballot now

in use for Dominion purposes. This condition has not been fulfilled, so that we do not believe we should pay the money.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Louis Coderre: We will now take up
the Department of Mines.
Mr. MARCH.:	Before the minister proceeds to the Department of Mines, I should like to ask him a question concerning naturalization papers. I understand that a certain application was made to his department for blank forms in French and that the reply was that there were no blanks printed in French.


Louis Coderre: The naturalization certificate was translated into French about three weeks ago and it will be printed soon. We have to give a temporary certificate in English or French because the real and final certificate has not yet been printed. The form of certificate has been drawn up according to the regulations passed by Order in Council. That form was adopted in English and it has been translated into French. Those who want the certificate form in French may have it but it will only be a temporary certificate.


Charles Marcil: Whatever form you have will be printed in both languages, I suppose?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Do I understand
that any person who was a resident of Canada on the 1st January last is still entitled to get a certificate of naturalization as a Canadian citizen? I understand the point was raised in a court of my own province when the judge decided that the effect of the law was that any person who was resident in the country on the 1st January could still get a certificate of naturalization as a Canadian citizen by proving qualifications under the old law.


Louis Coderre: This question has been submitted to the Department of Justice. I do not remember the conclusion arrived at by the department but it has been decided that, whatever appears to be the law on that point, these certificates may not be given during the war.


William John Macdonald: Would the minister be good enough to get the opinion of the Department of Justice and lay it on the table because it is a matter of importance throughout the country that we should know what view they take upon the subject.


Louis Coderre: I will do that.


Charles Marcil: What is the procedure
that must be followed by a Canadian who has become an American citizen and who now wishes to return to his original nationality?


Louis Coderre: I do not know that the the law passed last year has changed that.


William John Macdonald: Yes, it has.


Louis Coderre: Well, I could not give a statement as to 'those conditions.


William John Macdonald: The answer which my hon. friend the minister will get when he receives the opinion of the Department of Justice will be the answer which my *hon. friend from Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) wants, because the law provides that a person who had given up his allegiance here and had gone abroad could become naturalized again in Canada after a rssi-dence of three months, on taking the necessary oath.


Charles Marcil: Before the court in the district in which he resides ?


William John Macdonald: Before the court in the district in which he resides. The question I put to the minister as to the rights of parties under the old law, and the opinion entertained by the Department of Justice as to those people, would settle the question in my hon. friend's case as well as my own. It has been held, I know, that those who may be resident in Canada on- the 1st of January, under a section which came into the Bill after it had passed in this House or which was put in hurriedly at the end, was sufficient to cover residents on the 1st of January of this year.


Louis Coderre: When I answered the hon. member a few moments ago I understood his question had reference only to aliens who desired to become British subjects. The question which my hon. friend from Bonaventure asked does not apply to the -same class of foreigners. In the case mentioned by my hon. friend from Pictou, this question has been brought by the Department of Justice to the attention of the Home Government, and it has been decided that, whatever may be the Ipw on that point, aliens coming from foreign countries-not persons who have been British subjects and who wish to return to their allegiance-cannot receive certificates of naturalization during the war. I will bring down all the information I have received from the Minister of Justice.


Charles Marcil: In view of the changes which have been made in the naturalization law, would it not be possible for the minister to issue a circular giving instructions as to what may be done to enable repatriated Canadians to become British subjects ? The hon. Minister of- the Interior (Mr. Roche) told us last night tha-t the movement for repatriation was still going on in the United States, and that a large number of former Canadians were returning to Canada. Some of these people had become American citizens, and they now want to become British subjects again. Some doubt has arisen as to the naturalization of these persons, and perhaps my hon. friend would take the suggestion in good part that a copy of the certificate might be sent to members of Parliament and others, in view of the approach of a general election. Questions arise as to whether a man has been an American citizen or not, and as to what procedure is necessary in order that he may become a British subject again. In the case that I mentioned, the man was getting ready to vote at the next election, and he wanted to become a fit and proper subject for exercising the franchise. If there has been any change in the Naturalization Act, it will be well to get out circulars and send them to the members of this House and other parties interested so that they may know exactly how the law stands at present.	*


Louis Coderre: We will do that.
Civil Government-Department of Mines ; salaries, $358,775.


Mr. NESBITT:: Why the increase in salaries?


Louis Coderre: There is an increase of six in the number of permanent employees proposed to be employed in 1915-16. The net increase in the amount of salaries over the sum voted for 1914-15 is $12,800, made up as follows: one in second division, subdivision A. This man is already in the employ of the department temporarily. The change has been made according to the custom which has been followed in the Department of Mines for many years. Before making an employee permanent, the department employs a man temporarily so as to give him an opportunity to make good. In this case the man has proved to be competent, and we want him now to be made permanent. He is to hold the position of water analyst at a salary of $1,600. There is a new appointment in third division, subdivision B, a stenographer at $500. We require that stenographer. In the Geological Survey branch there is an appointment in the second division, subdivision
A,	of a junior geologist at $1,600. According to the system followed during the past few years, men selected from the different universities are tried out as temporary employees in the field before being taken on permanently. Three men are now available for employment, and we want one of those three to be made permanent. There is an appointment in the second division, subdivision C, at $1,200. This is required to replace Dr. J. A. Robert, transferred to the well-boring section, Geological division. We want two additional stenographers to replace temporary stenographers in the department. They require special training; and when they prove their ability to do the work, they ought to be appointed permanently. Those are all the new appointments in the Mines branch. We ask for the following promotions in the Mines branch: two from second division, subdivision A, to first division, subdiyision
B,	namely, Mr. H. S. DeSchmid and Mr. E. Stansfield. Mr. Stansfield is engineering chemist at the fuel-testing station, and he is giving eminent satisfaction. He is a thoroughly well-trained man, fitted to engage in original investigation, and his promotion is strongly urged. Mr. DeSchmid is assistant mining engineer in the ore-dressing and metallurgical division. He has compiled a monograph on mica, and he is now working on the felspar and phosphate deposits of Canada. He has had a good training, and is doing very useful work.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That is not exactly what I wanted to get at. Has the Mines branch more work to do than it had last year? If not, what is the reason for increasing the staff?	.


Louis Coderre: Although it appears that there is more than one increase, there is really but one. Let us take, for instance, the water analyst. He has been employed temporarily for a couple of years, and has never been made permanent. We now think he has proved to be competent and is entitled to a permanent position, and we ask for the necessary money. The same can be said in the case of the junior geologist, although it appears in the Estimates brought down that this is a new appointment. That man has been in the department as temporary employee for seven years. In that way, there is but one increase on the staff, according to the

Estimates brought down, with the exception of the two stenographers we require.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: According to page 25 of the Estimates, there were 206 employees in 1914-15, and there will be 212 in 1915-16. That will be 6 of an increase. There is also an increase of $12,800 in salaries. One man would not receive $12,800.


Louis Coderre: The hon. member must remember that there are the statutory increases in all those cases. The total increase is $12,800, and the statutory increases amount to $12,212.50. We have no control over the statutory increases.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We must be getting the six new men for practically nothing, because there is only a small difference between the total increase and the statutory increases.


Louis Coderre: Some men have been replaced by men who are paid less. Although it appears that six appointments have been made, in reality there has been but one new appointment, all the other officials having been temporarily employed for some time.


Charles Marcil: Who is the new water analyst?


Louis Coderre: R. T. Elworthy, who has been temporarily employed since May 14, 1914. He is now employed in an investigation of the mineral waters of Canada in a temporary capacity. This is important work, and will be of long duration. As Mr. Elworthy has proved himself a capable officer, it is proposed to make his appointment a permanent one.


Charles Marcil: I do not think there is any country in the world that has so much bad drinking water as Canada has. The water we drink here would not be given to cattle in Europe. Does the department provide any supervision of the drinking water which is consumed in large cities, such as Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa?


Louis Coderre: No.


Charles Marcil: Some of the rivers from which drinking water is obtained in this country are half in the United States and half in Canada; some are half in one province and half in another. The water which we drink here 'during the session of Parliament is not fit to drink. Half the Ottawa river is in Ontario, and the other half in Quebec, and I am told that while people are sick in Ottawa they are healthy in Hull. Should not the Dominion

officials exercise some control over this matter?


Louis Coderre: We have not that power; in order to obtain it, provision would have to be made to that effect.


Charles Marcil: On what principle is the examination of mineral waters carried out?


Louis Coderre: The jurisdiction of the Department of Mines extends to mineral waters; mines and mineral waters have a certain corelation; and on account of that corelation the investigation of mineral waters comes under the control of that department.


Charles Marcil: Are these mineral waters to be found in all provinces of Canada?


Louis Coderre: In all provinces, yes.


William F. Carroll: Who was appointed as mining engineer in the fuel testing division?


Louis Coderre: Mr. Edmund G. Malloch, salary $1,600.


William F. Carroll: Has he all the knowledge required of a person who holds such a position?


Louis Coderre: Yes, he was appointed upon the certificate of the Civil Service Commission.


William F. Carroll: I suppose it is the Civil Service Commission that advertises in the Canada Gazette with regard to applications for positions?


Louis Coderre: The Civil Service Commission advertises upon request being made by the department for a certain number of employees.


William F. Carroll: The advertisement in this case struck me as being very peculiar. It runs this way:
Candidates must be graduates in mining engineering of a recognized university, and must possess the following qualifications: a general knowledge of geology, chemistry, and of the mining industries of Canada; particular aptitude for technical statistical work, including accuracy, neatness, and the possession of keen powers of observation and deduction, the ability to prepare clearly and logically written reports; a general knowledge of draughting; a working knowledge of the French language; a pleasing personality.
I find no fault with the minister in this respect, but I do not see why it is required that the holder of this position should have a pleasing personality, provided he is in other respects a capable man, possessing full technical requirements.


Louis Coderre: This advertisement was drafted by Dr. Haanel, Director of the Mines Branch. A pleasing personality is really of importance in this position. The mining engineer in the fuel testing division has to meet all the engineers and mining people in the country, and it is better that he should be agreeable and pleasant. Dr. Haanel has had some experience in these matters and I presume that he thought that this was a necessary qualification.


William F. Carroll: Does the minister not think that $1,600 a year is a small salary for a man possessing those qualifications?


Louis Coderre: They start at $1,600, but as soon as they prove competent they pass to subdivision 2 A.


Charles Marcil: Are mining operations in Canada in a satisfactory condition at the present time? What progress has been made during the last year or two?


Louis Coderre: The production generally is not as large as it has been during other years. There are reasons for that decrease, one being the war.


Charles Marcil: What was the progress
before the war? Was there any increase?


Louis Coderre: The increases were in
coal and copper. There was some decrease in gold.


Charles Marcil: How about nickel?


Louis Coderre: I could not give exact
figures, but nickel also' has increased.


William F. Carroll: A Bill was passed last
year with reference to explosives in mines. Were any appointments made under that law? What was done?


Louis Coderre: No appointments were
made. It has been impossible for us to get the money for the buildings necessary for the proper carrying out of the law. Last year I had in the Estimates an appropriation of $63,875 in this connection. The money was not spent and the item appears this year also. But we have not been able to make the progress desired, and when we reach that item it is my intention to propose that it be reduced to $5,000.


William F. Carroll: This question of explosives in mines has been before the public for some years. We were in hopes last year when the Act was passed that the Government would make the necessary expenditure to carry the provisions of that law into 101
effect. I can understand that this year the Government is trying to keep down expenses, but it does seem to me that there are works that could be better reduced than this. In our own province of Nova Scotia we have very stringent local laws with regard to explosives, but some of the other provinces are not so well protected, and they need such a law as we passed last year to safeguard the miners. If the minister says that nothing can be done this year, I suppose we must accept that; but I would urge him not to overlook it for next year, for the mining people of Canada-I do not speak of mine operators so much as the people who go down into the mines to work-have been looking for years for such protection as this law would give.


Louis Coderre: I know that the hon.
member is right. I have been pleading this year, as last year, to get the necessary vote to bring into practical effect the law passed last year. But it has been impossible, for the reasons I have given. I hope that next year we shall be more fortunate. I realize that the situation should be dealt with as soon as possible.


Charles Marcil: Does the department exercise control over those establishments where explosives are manufactured, as for instance at Rigaud, in Vaudreuil, Beloeil, on the Richelieu river, and other places? Last year explosions took place, with most deplorable loss of life. I have wondered whether the department had any authority over these factories.


Louis Coderre: We have authority under the law passed last year, but, as I have explained, we have not the necessary machinery to bring the law into operation, money being too scarce. Without the money necessary to provide the buildings and pay the staff the work cannot go on. Meantime, the situation will have to be dealt with by provincial governments and municipalities under the laws, already provided.


Charles Marcil: Do the factory laws apply?


Louis Coderre: I think they would.
But there are special laws passed by some of the provinces dealing with manufactories of this kind, giving authority to public officers to inspect and in some measure control.


Charles Marcil: Of course, that to which
I call attention is different from the subject

mentioned by the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll). He speaks of the use of explosives in mines and I of the manufacture of explosives. Nothing is more [DOT]important than the safeguarding of human life, and if the Department of Mines can do anything to prevent loss of life through these terrible explosions, it would be hard to think of money being better spent. Some of these factories of explosives are right on the line of railway, within half a mile, and there is constant danger to the public. I have never heard whether any action is taken in the case of these explosions, but now is the time for the hon. minister to show what he can do.


Louis Coderre: In each of these cases the department has sent one of its principal officials to the scene of the explosion. Of course he could not do much. All he could do was to gather the particulars of the explosion and the extent of injury wrought in the destruction of life and property. He could not do more than that. This is one of the reasons why legislation was introduced by the Government with a view to prevent such accidents. We have not today the necessary machinery to enforce that law, but I hope that next year we will be in a better position.


Charles Marcil: The question of fuel is becoming a very important one in the large cities. In Montreal there are. some poor people who are buying coal in 25-lb., 50-lb. and 100-lb. lots, while many have to obtain it through charity from the St. Vincent de Paul Society. Coal is selling in small lots at $9, $9.50 and $10 a ton, and by the ton at $8.50. What progress has been made in the introduction of peat fuel? The Montreal Light, Heat and Power Company has introduced a new fuel, coke, which is a byproduct of the manufacture of coal gas and is used by the poor in conjunction with soft coal. It would be of great importance if peat could be introduced as a good fuel.


Louis Coderre: For years considerable sums have been spent, not only in Canada but all over the world, in the effort to solve the question of using peat as a fuel. The Government of Canada spent a considerable sum a few years ago at Alfred, in Prescott county, the total expenditure being $25,508. The results, I regret to say, were not satisfactory. That is to say, it has been found impossible to demonstrate by the process followed there that peat could be put on the market at a price which would compare

favourably with that of soft coal. I have since taken much interest in a process owned by a gentleman named Graham in Ottawa. Lately he said that if the department would pay $100 to Mr. Porter, a mining engineer attached to McGill University, for a report he was sure it would be favourable. We have done that, and I have here the report of Mr. Porter. He says:
It is a misfortune that Mr. Graham has been over-sanguine as to certain fundamental matters and it is with sincere regret that I feel myself unable to express unqualified approval of his proposal.
We have been working on that for two years and this is the result. It would be exceedingly important not only during the winter but all the year around if we could put peat on the market at a lower price.


Charles Marcil: What was the cause of the failure at Alfred, the raw material or the process?	.


Louis Coderre: Dr. Haanel, Director of the Mines Branch, will not admit that there has been a failure. He claims to have demonstrated that peat could be briquetted at such a price that it could be sold at $3.50 a ton. His report on this question is available to those interested.


Charles Marcil: Has the manufacture of peat at Alfred been discontinued?


Louis Coderre: After the Government experiments ceased, the plant was purchased by a Mr. Shuttleworth, an Englishman, who was deeply interested in the question and who has, since purchasing from the Government, spent through his representative, Mr. Moore, some $50,000 in developing the plant.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Last year I was told that this was a very successful undertaking of Mr. Shuttleworth. How successful has he been this year?


Louis Coderre: We are always hopeful in cases like this. I would like very much to have these hopes realized.


Charles Marcil: Has any progress been made in electric smelting lately?


Louis Coderre: In the Supplementary Estimates there is a vote of $10,000 to be spent in the operation of a process for the electric smelting of iron ore named the Motiai-Irving process. The hon. member must have read in the paper last year that a delegation representing iron ore interests, more particularly in the province of On-

tario, came here to meet the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance. They represented that as the ore was of a very low grade it would he well for the Government to give a bounty to the companies interested. Instead of that the Government appointed a commission, composed of three officers of the Department of Mines, to make an investigation; and that commission has made a partial report. If the House passes this $10,000 vote it will be used for the purpose of making experiments with the Moffat-Irving process, which is very well thought of in certain
4 p.m. parts of the country. So far as zinc is concerned I think the sum of $50,000 was appropriated some years ago for the purpose of making experiments at Nelson, but they did not prove a success. These ores are of a very low grade, and a process has not yet been invented for developing them on a paying basis. I beg to move that the amount of $63,875 in the third item of resolution 282 be reduced to $5,000.


William F. Carroll: What will the minister
do with this $5,000?


Louis Coderre: It is to pay the expenses of the officers who are to make the investigations. Part of it will be used in travelling expenses, and part in making preparations.


William F. Carroll: If there is an opportunity of enforcing the Act I do not think this item should be cut down.


Louis Coderre: It is impossible to get
this money. There is no item for it in the Estimates of the Public Works Department.


William F. Carroll: The difficulty is that the money does not appear in the Public Works Estimates?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Civil Government-Department of Mines- Mines Branch, second division, subdivision B; 1 at $1,300 ; 1 at $1,275 ; 1 at $1,262.50; 2 at $1,200 ; 1 at $987.50; 1 at $975; 1 at $800, $9,000.
Louis Coderre: I beg to move:
That the said Resolution be amended by adding thereto the words: "including $1,000 transferred for third division, subdivision A, to second division, subdivision B."
This is the same amount as was voted last year for this man. The reason why I ask for the transfer is that when we asked the Civil Service Commissioners for a certi-lOlj
ficate for this man, they told us it would first be necessary to have him transferred.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to. -
Mines and Geological Survey-Mines Branch -investigations of ore deposits, economic minerals, peat bogs, determination of fuel values of coals, lignite and peat of Canada, including wages of machinist and labourers, and additional machinery; investigation of ore dressing, wages of labourers, machinery and equipment of laboratory; collection of information regarding minor minerals, and metallurgical industries and operations, $62,000,
Frank Oliver: Would the minister give us a sketch of what the intentions are with regard to the expenditure, of the particular objects of the investigations mentioned in the list and in what particular localities it is proposed to make the bulk of the expenditure?


Louis Coderre: This is an item of $62,000 for investigations to be carried on by the Mines Branch. The hon. member will notice that there is a decrease of $24,000. The main vote last year for the same purpose was $86,000. This item is to provide for the continuation of investigations into the copper resources of Canada and their utilization. There will be an investigation for the purpose of studying the recent advances and experiments in the hydrometallurgy of copper. These methods are applicable to low grade copper ores which at the present time are not used by our operators. Inquiries have been received with reference to the application of these methods of the recovering of copper to certain Canadian ores. The ore testing laboratories have also been asked to make certain experimental investigations along this line. There is an item of $6,000 for the investigation of iron ore deposits including magneto metric surveys. For the purpose of continuing our investigation of the iron ore resources two field parties are proposed and the areas not yet examined will be surveyed during the field season. The location of the parties cannot be determined until the close of the present field * season, but one party will probably complete the work in Ontario while the other will be sent to British Columbia. There is another item of $2,000 which will be applied to the preparation of a new edition of the report upon the mining and metallurgical industries of Canada. The report is now in course of preparation by Mr. John McLeish, chief of division of Mineral Resources and Statistics. This item of $62,000 is divided into a large number of small items, and I am ready to go on with an

explanation of each of them, but it will take a long time.


Frank Oliver: I will not press the question; I see that the minister is not prepared to answer it.


Louis Coderre: I am prepared to go on with the explanation.


Frank Oliver: It would not really convey the information that I am anxious to have in a way that would he interesting. I wish to make a remark which perhaps is fitting at this place. I want to draw the attention of the minister and his department to the use of the word " lignite " in describing a large part of the coal formation of Alberta and Saskatchewan. A similar class of coal exists south of the line and there a different name is used for it. My information is to the effect that the use of the word " lignite " unduly and improperly prejudices the public mind in regard to the quality of coal so named. I may be getting into deep water when I undertake to discuss this question with the scientific members of my hon. friend's staff, but there is no question about the fact that the word " lignite " is properly used as a name for a coal that is not a coal but is a partially formed coal and therefore very inferior as far as burning qualities are concerned.


Mr. HAZEN:: What do they call it south of the line?


Frank Oliver: Sub-bituminous. I would not wish that a name should be used that would convey an impression unduly favourable in regard to the quality of the coal but I am just as insistent that a name should not be used which conveys an idea unduly unfavourable to the quality of the coal.


Louis Coderre: What would the hon.
gentleman suggest that we would do in order to change the name?


Frank Oliver: My suggestion is that a
more appropriate name be used in designating the class of coal that is found in the prairie portions of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, a name that would not mark that coal as inferior for fuel purposes when it is not inferior. In the United States they use the term " subbituminous." There is no doubt that this is a more truly expressive term than the term " lignite " which, if I have read the encyclopedia correctly, is applied in its native home to an article that is not yet formed into coal, has not yet the colour of
r Mr. Coderre. 1
coal and has not yet the qualities of coal such as has the coal of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. * I am quite aware that this name has been used for many years, but I hope it is never too late to mend.
There is no doubt that great harm has been done by the use of this inappropriate name. Now is as good a time as any to make the suggestion that a more suitable name should be used. The name used south of the line is a much more appropriate and expressive name than the one we use, and might very well be adopted in place of it.
For investigations of the manufacture and storage of explosives in Canada, apparatus and equipment, salaries of inspectors, chemist, machinist, clerical assistance and travelling expenses, $63,875.


The CHAIRMAN:: I have an amendment before me to reduce the amount to $5,000.


Charles Marcil: Under what head come the chief reductions in this item?


Louis Coderre: Under the operation of the law passed last year concerning explosives in Canada, we do not need this money at all, unless we have the money to be provided by the Public Works Department for the erection of the explosives test station and accessories. We cannot get the money from the Public Works Department, and so we do not need this estimate. We have retained $5,000 of it for certain expenses in connection with the operation of the Explosives Act.
For practical tests in road making of tar sands of Athabaska, $5,000.


William F. Carroll: Is this the second year that this vote has been in?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


William F. Carroll: What is it for?


Louis Coderre: Arrangements were made with the government of Alberta and the city of Edmonton to lay two types of pavement with material obtained from the tar sands deposits of Athabaska river. Mr. Ells, of the Mines branch staff, is selecting the material this summer and is arranging for its transportation in the winter. The tile pavement, the foundation for which will be provided by the city of Edmonton, will be laid some time in the year 1915. There are already 50 tons of that material at Athabaska landing.


Frank Oliver: The people of Edmonton
and vicinity appreciate very much the action of the minister in taking the course

that he has done in regard to this tar sand. It is a very practical piece of business that he has undertaken, and we hope that the experiment will turn out successfully, as it means a great deal to that part of the country. Has the department decided as to what the form the first experiment will take? There will probably require to be a number of experiments; but if the minister is able to make a statement in regard to what the present intentions of the department are, I shall be very glad to have it.


Louis Coderre: It is all experimental
work. This will be the first experiment. A man fully qualified for the work will be sent to Edmonton to represent the department. He will try with all his might to get the desired results. We shall have, moreover, an experienced layer of material at Edmonton for the same purpose.


Frank Oliver: Will the experiment be
tried out as pavement on the city streets or as improvement of the country roads? When we had this matter under discussion last year, we pressed for an experiment with a view to its application to the country roads. Which experiment is to have the first place in the attention of the department?


Louis Coderre: The experiment will be made on the city streets. There is an understanding between the city and the Government in that regard.


Frank Oliver: That was not the great
purpose that we had in view in bringing . the matter to the attention of the minister at the last regular session. The great purpose was the use of the asphalt in the improvement of the country roads. While, of course, its use in the improvement of the city streets is very good, the great purpose is for the country roads.


John Douglas Hazen: If the experiment proved
useful for the city streets, would it not naturally be useful for the country roads?


Frank Oliver: It is possible to incur an expenditure in preparation for the laying of the city.streets that would not be practicable in the case of the country roads. We wanted to find out if this would be a measurably cheap as well as efficient improvement for the country roads. Probably fifty tons would not be more than sufficient to try out an experiment thoroughly well on the city streets. Therefore, I would say to the minister that, while I give him every credit for what he has done to solve a practical problem in a practical way.
I still point out that the great purpose of dealing with the country roads will not be altogether served by the means that have already been taken. No doubt it will need a much larger supply of material in order to try out these experiments on country roads, and I should be glad, if during the coming summer, the minister would take that fact into consideration, and secure a still larger supply for the purpose of carrying that experiment further. As to the experiment on the city streets, I do not think there is any question about it, the article is well suited to that purpose. The great problem is to find a cheap means of establishing permanent roads in that country of black soil.


Mr. JAMESON:: Has the minister had
any analysis made of this so-called black sand deposit in the vicinity of the Peace river? If so, did it indicate the presence of petroleum or of material that would produce gasoline?	*


Louis Coderre: An officer of the department has been working there-Mr. Ells. I am told that he has not yet had time to complete his work, but is gathering the necessary material to make a report. I do not know whether it will be necessary for him, in the meantime, to procure an analysis of that tar sand. I think we shall have to wait until he brings out his report to see if an analysis is necessary.


Frank Oliver: Far be it from me to assume a knowledge of my hon. friend's department superior to his own, but I wish to inform him that I have already received a very handsome volume containing Mr. Ell's report, upon which I congratulate both Mr. Ells and the department.


Louis Coderre: I do not remember having seen the report. But what I meant is that Mr. Ells is continuing his work.


Charles Marcil: Is this asphalt to be
found in quantities sufficient to benefit the whole of Canada?


Louis Coderre: The deposit is very
large-millions of tons.


Charles Marcil: I understand that the
asphalt used in Montreal is all imported. It would be most encouraging to know that material for the making of good roads could be had in our own country. There is much to be done in the way of making good roads in the older provinces.


Frank Oliver: I understand that the item in regard to explosives has been reduced to $5,000 and passed in that form. But, if I may be permitted, I should like to say a word upon that subject. There are a number of operating coal mines in the constituency I represent, both so-called lignite and actually bituminous coal mines. While fortunately, we have not yet had any serious accident in connection with explosives, I should like to urge that the time to make expenditure for the protection of life against explosion is before the explosion takes place rather than after. As the law has been passed dealing with that subject, which has to be supplemented, by certain expenditures, and as it appears to have been the intention of the Government to provide for those expenditures, I would urge as strongly as I can the reconsideration of the suggestion to cut down that appropriation. There have been very terrible mining explosions from what may be called the natural conditions, but there are < other terrible accidents resulting from the nature of the explosives used. I understand that the legislation that I have referred to provides that proper precautions shall be taken that the explosives shall be in proper order and shall not be tampered with. There is no doubt there was a condition believed to exist which made it necessary to bring forward this legislation; and it seems strange that, the legislation having been agreed to by the House and the necessary expenditure having been considered and considered favourably, the appropriation should now be practically withdrawn. It is not a very large amount, and there is no doubt there are very important interests affected by the expenditure. I merely wished to place before the minister as strongly as I could the conditions as they exist and my views with regard to the matter.
Mines and Geological Survey-Geological Survey branch for explorations and surveys; ethnological, archaeological and palaeontological investigations; wages of explorers, topographers, draftsmen and others, $175,000.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Last year, the hon. minister will remember, I asked for information with respect to the dismissal of Mr. McLeod, who had been in the service of the Government for a great many years. At the time the minister was not able to furnish me with one part of the information asked for, that is, the reason of Mr. McLeod's dismissal. Can the minister give me that information now?	[DOT]


Louis Coderre: I remember that
question was put to me, and I had an op-
[Mr. C. Mardl.J
portunity later of going- into the record. The non-employment of Mr. McLeod was not last year, but the year before, last. I was not Minister of Mines at that time, and of course I had to go to the record for the facts. The man has never been a permanent employee; he used to be attached to field parties in Nova Scotia. I cannot find in the record any reason for his not being reengaged for the season of 1913. I believe that a return has been ordered in respect of this matter; I do not remember having laid it on the table, but I do remember having seen it in my office, and if it will give any satisfaction to my hon. friend I shall be glad to look for it, and bring it down Monday or Tuesday.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who has been appointed in Mr. McLeod's place?


Louis Coderre: He was only a temporary employee, working during the few months of the year in which these field parties were engaged. If he has been replaced, I do not know by whom.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am not surprised that the hon. minister is unable to give, any reason for Mr. McLeod's dismissal. The fact is that there was no reason for his dismissal, unless it was that he was one of my supporters. Mr. McLeod-this will show how little he was interested in politics-did not go home to vote at the last election. He had been in the service of the Government for twefiiy-five years, and had been efficient in his work, a fact which I feel sure the Government has utterly failed to recognize. It is absurd to dispense with the services of a man who has worked faithfully for twenty-five or thirty years. The minister says that a report was asked for. I got that report last year, and I was glad to know that all the officers employed in the Geological Sur-very spoke of Mr. McLeod as a most efficient man, whose services could not very well be dispensed with. I have a clear recollection of a favourable statement made by Mr. Fletcher, who was the head of the department while he lived; in his death the country suffered a great loss. In view of Mr. Fletcher's favourable recommendation of this faithful servant of the Government, and in view of the fact that the Government could not charge Mr. McLeod with active political partisanship, it is not surprising to me that the minister is unable to give any reason for his dismissal. I may suggest a reason, however : on account of personal animosity

between Mr. McLeod and some of the politicians in the counties of Inverness and Victoria, Mr. McLeod was victimized. If the facts were laid before the committee, hon. gentlemen would realize that Mr. McLeod's services were dispensed with because some of these politicians got itfhe ear ox my hon. friend's predecessor. I -am sure that my hon. friend's predecessor did not know the facts, or he certainly would not have dismissed Mr. McLeod. Last year I suggested to the minister that he should look into this case, and, if he found the facts to be as I represented them to him, that he should, on behalf of the Government and his department, offer to reinstate Mr. McLeod in the position, that he might continue to do the good work which he had been doing for so many years. What encouragement is there for any persons in the 'service of the Government to do honest work if they must look forward to the time when they will be thrown to the dogs, so to speak, at the instance of those who have not the slightest desire to further the interests of the country or to assist in the efficient administration of the department ? Persons of this kind care for nothing but the satisfaction of their own desires. I hope the minister will take this case up, and offer Mr. McLeod the position that he held for so many years. It is no explanation to say that he was only temporarily employed, because the work which he did could only be performed during six or seven months of the year. My hon. friend must remember, however, that this service was continued for 25 years or 30 years. Mr. McLeod worked during the summer, and istayed at home in the winter, doing clerical work for the department. I do not know whether Mr. McLeod would undertake the work again, but I think if would be a good thing if the minister would take the matter in hand and teach a lesson to those person's who have interfered.


Louis Coderre: As I have already said, I do not know why Mr. McLeod was not rq-engagedi in 1913; neither do I know whether I can find out. In the return which has been mentioned, there is a recommendation of Mr. McLeod by Mr. Fletcher. I am told that Mjr. McLeod was not employed continuously for 25 years. On one occasion the hon. member for Edmonton did not re-engage him; for what reason, I do not know. If my predecessor refused to re-engage Mr. McLeod because of partisanship, how am I to ascertain -whether he was right in the course which
he took? I will inquire into the matter, but if if is proved that Mr. McLeod has been guilty of political partisanship, I do not think my hon. friend will insist upon my taking him back.


Alexander William Chisholm: I certainly will not. Mr. McLeod's 'suspension at the time referred to by the hon. minister was due to little domestic troubles which he had with my hon. friend's predecessor; it was not on account of partisanship. I am sure that my hon. friend would not look unfavourably upon Mr. McLeod for anything he had done against my hon. friend's predecessor. If Mr. McLeod was not re-employed because of non-partisanship or because of his not taking a sufficiently active part in politics, it is evident that he is going to be damned if he does take part in politics, and he is going to be damned if he does not. It is not safe for him to go into politics, and it is not safe for him to keep out of politics. The hon. minister certainly can make no charge of political partisanship against Mr. McLeod, and I am sure that he can find nothing else against him. I am encouraged to think, therefore, that the minister will take into consideration the 'suggestions which I have made in this matter.


Frank Oliver: Does the vote cover explorations for economic minerals5'


Louis Coderre: These field parties will cover the country and collect data during the summer which will be used in the reports for the year, giving all the particulars of the country examined, the nature of the soil, the geological formations and the general character of the country. People will then be able to judge from these reports whether minerals will likely be found in certain localities. I do not mean that we will go prospecting or engage in the exploitation of mines. This year we will have parties working in Queens-Shelbume, N.S., examining the gold-bearing areas and will also carry on further investigations in connection with the coal measures. In New Brunswick there will be five field parties at work.


Charles Marcil: What are the parties looking for in New Brunswick?


Louis Coderre: They will investigate
general geology in some districts, and make special investigations of the oil shales. In Quebec there will be five field parties, the principal investigations there being in connection with asbestos, mica and graphite.


Frank Oliver: What are the areas and purposes of exploration in the prairie provinces?


Louis Coderre: In Manitoba there will be an investigation of the gold and copper deposits at Beaver lake and general geological work. In Saskatchewan and the Northwest territories there will be special examinations of the Devonian area of the Great Slave lake district, with special reference to the occurrence of oil, lead and zinc. In Alberta there will be further examination of the coal measures and an investigation of the occurrence of underground supplies of water in the neighbourhood of Lethbridge.


Frank Oliver: There is at present a somewhat pronounced rush from Edmonton to some point on lake Athabaska to an alleged find of silver, in fact of cobalt. Has that particular area been the subject of examination by the geological survey and have steps been taken by the minister to have an examination of this district during the coming summer. I believe it is at the eastern side of lake Athabaska, in the neighbourhood of Pond du Lac.


Louis Coderre: No special investigation has taken place in this district. In view of what has taken place recently, we shall endeavour to ascertain if there is any foundation for the reports of discoveries and if there is we shall have an examination made. We have nothing in the department on which to base an opinion as to the value of the alleged discoveries.


Frank Oliver: A certain prospector has been operating in that territory for two or three years. During the past winter, after the ice set, he came out and brought with him a number of samples. I did not see the samples, but I heard at the time about them being brought out. About two weeks ago there was published in the newspapers quite a startling report as to the assay value of these samples, and on the strength of that report quite a number of prospecting parties have started from Edmonton for the purpose of locating claims. If the department would take steps to see the samples this man brought out, they could satisfy themselves as to the merit of the strike. I have no knowledge myself of the actual value of the samples, but as a number of parties of men have outfitted at great expense for the purpose of going down there, I think it would be quite in order for the department to send out an expert to look over the field to see what merit there might be in it. The place is easily accessible in

summer time. I think this would be a wise step on the part of the department.


Charles Marcil: Is there anything new in the shale industry in New Brunswick?


John Douglas Hazen: I can perhaps tell my hon. friend about that. A friend of his in the Senate, Col. Domville, is very deeply interested in the shale business in New Brunswick, and I think some members of this House too. A little before war broke out, arrangements had been made under which a large amount of English capital was coming in for the development of that industry, but the war has prevented that for a time.


Charles Marcil: Is it in Westmorland
county?


John Douglas Hazen: No, Albert county chiefly. The matter is now being taken up again, and I understood from Col. Domville the other day that a diamond borer belonging to the local Government had been placed at their disposal, and that further explorations were being made. There are several different shale propositions in the county of Albert. I think Sir William Mackenzie is interested in one of the companies, but not much has been done on account of the war. The general impression is that there is very great wealth in the shale there. The shale will be reduced to oil, and will give very many valuable by-products. The shale has been tested in Scotland at the shale works at Pumperston, and has been found to be as rich as the best shale. The shale question has been talked of in New Brunswick for a great many years, and a good deal has been done. Different companies have been formed, but the difficulty has always been that a very large amount of capital is required in order to place the business on a proper basis. I was talking two or three years ago to Dr. F. S. Pearson, of New York, whom my hon. friend may remember as a scientist and a company promoter. He is the gentleman who promoted the Dominion Coal Company. He told me he was satisfied that in the near future there would be established in the county of Albert an industry that in dimensions and importance would be much greater than the Dominion Coal Company.
The delays have been somewhat
5 p.m. disappointing to the people of
New Brunswick, for everybody in that section is extremely anxious that something should be done to develop this mineral wealth, which is universally believed to be of very great importance.


Charles Marcil: What is this oil used for?


John Douglas Hazen: For fuel chiefly, for the
use of engines, steamships, and things like that.


Charles Marcil: And for lighting purposes?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so. It is
very rich in sulphate of ammonia, which enters very largely into the composition of fertilizers. Then there are all sorts of byproducts from which aniline dyes and things of that sort are made.


Charles Marcil: I think the industry is
an important one in every respect.
Mines and Geological Survey-Geological Survey Branch-for exploration and investigating the possible occurrence of radium bearing ores in Canada, and for the dissemination of information concerning these ores, $10,000.


Charles Marcil: Has anything been done
about this?


Louis Coderre: There have been no results as yet.


Charles Marcil: Are these finds expected
to be made in the West?


Louis Coderre: I do not see that anything has been done so far. We have a tentative programme of field work for this season.


Frank Oliver: I might say that this particular item goes entirely beyond and is entirely different from the intention of the preceding item. My hon. friend pointed out that the preceding item was not for the purpose of actually prospecting. This particular item is for the purpose of prospecting.


Louis Coderre: For exploration and investigation.


Frank Oliver: Yes, it is for the purpose of prospecting. I am not finding fault with that at all. I think it is a very proper purpose in which to spend a small amount of public money and employ the talents of the officers of the department. But what I wish to urge is that the same attitude be adopted by the department with regard to other minerals that might be found from time to time. I would suggest that a specialty be made of prospecting for particular minerals.


Louis Coderre: Owing to the interest being taken in radium, and owing to the fact that radium-bearing minerals are for the most part unknown to the ordinary
prospector, the department thought fit to do this exploration themselves.


Frank Oliver: I am supporting the department in that.


William John Macdonald: Who has succeeded Mr. Fletcher as chief of the exploration work in Nova Scotia?


Louis Coderre: Dr. Hayes. There will be several field parties in Nova Scotia this season.


William John Macdonald: There is a Dr. Hayes who is the provincial Tory organizer and a friend of my hon. friend from North Cape Breton. I suppose this is a different man?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Perhaps my hon. friend will give some statement as to his experiences and qualifications, with particular reference to coal.
Mr. CODERR.E: His full name is Albert Orion Hayes. He was employed as an assistant to Charles Camsell, Geological Survey, season 1907, at $75 per month; assistant to W. H. Boyd, seasons 1908-9; assistant to R. G. McConnell, seasons 1909-10-11; chief officer in charge of party, May 14,	1913. Appointed to
position of junior geologist in subdivision A of the second division in the Geological Survey, at $1,600 per year, from 9th November, 1914, per Civil Service certificate dated 9th November, 1914. He will be at the head of a party which will operate in Nova Scotia during the coming season to make an investigation of the coal measures at New Glasgow.


William John Macdonald: Dr. Fletcher was a man who had a wonderful reputation among all the coal people in the province of Nova Scotia, and, now that he is gone, that fact may not have any significance or importance. But I would like to point out that Nova Scotia is the only coal-bearing province, with the exception of a small quantity that is found in New BrunswicK, east of the Rocky mountains.


Frank Oliver: What?


William John Macdonald: With the exception of Alberta.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: East of the Great Lakes.


William John Macdonald: East of the Great Lakes, as my hon. friend (Mr. Sinclair) says, would probably be more accurate. There was a great deal of Dr. Fletcher's work which was not complete. There is

quite a problem, as to which he entertained a strong opinion, as to whether coal exists north of the conglomerate formation. He was of the opinion that there existed a very large bed of coal extending from the conglomerate formation down to the coal fields of Cumberland county. He was making an investigation into that question when he was called away. The coal area of Nova Scotia is limited to Pictou and Cumberland counties on the mainland of the province. Of course, Cape Breton Island is by itself. It is a matter of very great importance that the particular phase of the subject to which I have referred should be investigated. I hope that Dr. Hayes, who is the successor of Dr. Fletcher, will have his attention called to that fact. I notice the statement that he is exploring in the vicinity [DOT] of New Glasgow, but that is somewhat to the eastward of the point 1 mentioned.


Louis Coderre: Not very far.


William John Macdonald: No, not very far. It is in the present coalfield, which is delimited by the conglomerate foundation. The question is as to the existence of coal between the conglomerate and the coal measures of Cumberland. As to the existence of coal there in large quantities, Dr. Fletcher had very pronounced views. I would like to ask the minister to take a note of this fact, with the view of directing the attention of Dr. Hayes, who, I hope, will prove a worthy successor to Dr. Fletcher, to the possibility of developing that field in the province of Nova Scotia. The coal fields of Nova Scotia being limited, in the mainland of the province as distinguished from Cape Breton, it is most desirable that the idea of Dr. Fletcher should be followed up, in order to make sure of the existence of what he believed to be a large bed of coal. It would add to the coal resources of the country, 'and it would be a very great and important work if the department should locate, at a depth where they could easily be worked, coal measures as to the existence of which Dr. Fletcher was quite confident.
Mines and Geological Survey

Geological Survey Branch-for publication of reports, translation of reports into French, maps, plans, illustrations, etc., $75,000.


William John Macdonald: I have not seen any reports from the Geological Survey of late with reference to the province of Nova Scotia, although I have noticed pamphlets relating to other portions of Canada.


Louis Coderre: I do not remember having seen a report of the work done in Nova Scotia, but I will ascertain if tnere is one.


William John Macdonald: I think we ought to have a report on that work soon.


Frank Oliver: May I ask as to the time elapsing between the geological exploration and the publication of the report of the exploration? In times gone by there seemed to be such an interval between the exploration and the publication of the report that the value of the exploration in many cases was largely lost. I would like to know if anything has been d6ne under the present minister to speed up the production of reports. In regard to the Ells report, I think it is entirely creditable to Mr. Ells, to the department and to the printing shop that did the work. I would like to see that illustrious example followed in regard to everything else.


Louis Coderre: Last year the Deputy Minister of Mines drew my attention to the delay. As my hon. friend has said, that delay in almost all these cases is fatal. Some of these reports were useless when they were printed, published and distributed. To obviate that inconvenience we thought it would be better to have these reports printed by one firm because it was impossible to print everything at the Printing Bureau. Having to send something outside, and believing that these reports should be as well printed as possible, we have made a contract with the Mortimer Company, Limited, of Ottawa. I believe that, as a result, the reports will present more uniformity, will be brought before the public sooner, and will be printed in such a manner that they can be sent out of the country without the Government or the people being obliged to gloss them over. They will compare favourably with reports of the same kind, the world over.


Frank Oliver: It is not only a question
of printing the reports; it is a matter of compiling them. Can the minister say that the reports of the explorations that will be made during the coming summer will be available for the use of the public by the succeeding spring? The explorations having ceased at the end of summer, the explorers should make their compilations and the printers should do their work before the following spring, so that those who are interested in following up for economic purposes the information secured would

have that information available in time for its use in the following spring. That is the purpose that should be aimed at.


Louis Coderre: The report of the work done last year will come out within a month, and the report of the work done during the coming season will come out very early next spring. It is impossible to bring them out with more rapidity than that.


Frank Oliver: Without being too insistent, let me urge upon the minister that prospecting work begins as soon as spring begins. The prospector, if he is going into a distant part of the country, requires the whole season to make an effective summer's work; and if the information that has been secured by the Government through its officers in the Geological Department is available during the month of March, then he has the whole summer in which to do his work based upon that information; but if that report is not out before June, then he has only half the summer and can do only half as effective work in the interest of exploration and development.
Therefore, permit me to insist that the minister and his department should use every endeavour to have the results of the explorations of the coming year available before the beginning of the season of exploration in the following year.


Louis Coderre: 
Frank Oliver: I am very glad to hear that. Between the minister and myself,
I am very glad to compromise on April.


Mr.   MAGDONALD@: To what extent does the department exercise supervision over the operation of coal mines upon lands leased from the Dominion Government ?


Louis Coderre: I do not know anything .about that. That matter belongs to the Department of the Interior.


William John Macdonald: The minister does not nnderstand me. He is head of the Department of Mines, and anything relating to that department would centre in him. A person obtains a coal lease in Alberta, and proceeds to operate a coal mine. I am not speaking about the payment of rent or .anything of that kind; I am speaking about the operating of the coal mine. Does the Department of Mines exercise any supervision or make any regulations as to the precautions that must be taken by the operator, or what is the line of demarcation between the control of the Federal Government and the control of the Provincial Government ? Those lands being the property of the Federal Government, and in that respect conditions being different from conditions in the East, where the coal area is the property of the Provincial Government, it would occut to me that some duty would be cast upon the Federal Government in ^regard to the operation of the mine. Take the question of safety of life. Where the Provincial Government owns the land and gives it to the operator for a consideration, the Provincial Government lays down certain laws in regard to the manner in which the mine shall be operated, in regard to the safety of the lives of the workmen, and so on. Does this Government do that in regard to any of its properties ?


Louis Coderre: Those regulations do
not belong to this department at all. I do not know whether they exist or not; but, if they do, they must have been passed by the Department of the Interior.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: If my hon.
friend will allow me, something passed under my notice within the last week or two with reference to this matter. Those lands are leased by the Department of the Interior. The correspondence which passed under my notice stated that they seemed to have been leased by the Interior Department up to the present time; that those who worked them, worked them just as they wished without any supervision as to the manner of taking out the coal, the mining of the coal economically and without regard to the future. That was the representation from .a very influential quarter, urging that there should be supervision. That matter is before the Prime Minister and the Minister of the Interior. I thought that plea was a very

proper one, as it was very uneconomical to have those mines worked without a proper system and a governmental supervision. Therefore that matter will be taken into consideration.


William John Macdonald: In the province of
Nova Scotia, which has been a mining province for a long period, although a lessee is operating a mine he cannot proceed to take out the coal as he pleases. He must mine in a certain way; he must file plans with the Government, and the Government inspectors can prevent him from taking coal out of a certain pillar or from removing certain protections for the future. Are there any provincial laws on the subject?


George Eulas Foster: I should judge, from the correspondence which passed through my hands, that the matter would belong to the Dominion Government, it being the lessor of the land.


William John Macdonald: A great many men from my province are working in those coal mines. There have been quite a number of disasters of late, and it has been a subject of discussion amongst the friends of these men in the east as to where the responsibility rests, and as to the wisdom of exercising some control over the method of mining, which is important in the interest of life as well as of property.
Grant to Canadian Peat Society, $1,500.


Edmond Proulx: Is the department still
making experiments with peat?


Louis Coderre: No, we are not making experiments. This is a grant to the society.
Civil Service Commission, salaries, $32,037.50.


Charles Marcil: Is there any provision
here for the appointment of a third commissioner?


Louis Coderre: No.


Charles Marcil: No intention of making
such an appointment this year?


Louis Coderre: I could not say as to
that.


Charles Marcil: Is the salary provided by statute?


Louis Coderre: I think it is, but I am not sure.
Department of Naval Service-to provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, Naval College and dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau, and Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $1,000,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: We should like some explanation of this from the minister.


John Douglas Hazen: On Monday morning, on the second reading of the Bill for granting aid to His Majesty for military and: naval defence, I will make a statement in regard to the working of the Naval Department in connection with the present war; and so I will not refer to it now. This is an amount appropriated for the Naval Service, the same as in the Estimates of last year. It is doubtful whether any large portion of this vote will be expended. The expense of carrying on our naval end of the war, with the Niobe, the Rainbow, the submarine and other ships engaged in the Naval Service and placed at the disposal of the Admiralty, are being paid out of the war vote. I thought at first I might cut down this vote very materially; but in discussing the matter with the Finance Department, it was pointed out that this would not be a safe policy, for if the war came to a sudden termination, we must have some vote on which to fall back to carry on the services, which could not then be charged up to the war appropriation.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Is the cost of operating the Niobe and the Rainbow not paid out of the civil vote?


John Douglas Hazen: No, out of the war appropriation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is no authority
for that, surely.


John Douglas Hazen: Our information is that
there is ample authority under the war vote.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Of course, you can read anything you want to in that war vote. However, I will not discuss that now.


John Douglas Hazen: It may be that only a small portion of this $1,000,000 will be required during the war. I will read how it is made up: Royal Naval College, $90,000; dockyard at Halifax, $200,000; dockyard at Esquimalt, $85,000; for the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer reserves, $200,000; salaries at headquarters and other miscellaneous expenditures, $50,000; amount available for His Majesty's Canadian ships Niobe and Rainbow and submarines CC-1 and CC-2, $375,000. Total, $1,000,000. The amount for the Royal Naval College at Halifax will have to be expended. Some of the other amounts will have to be expended, but if the war continues, a comparatively large portion of it, I hope, will not !be expended.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What doe3 it cost to operate the Niobe and the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: The estimated cost of operating the Niobe for the year-^this is based on the expenditure during the present war -is $726,125, and the Rainbow, $366,450. For operating the two submarines, $170,075; submarine depot, $38,800; Halifax dockyard, $257,500; Esquimalt dockyard, $173,350; Royal Naval College, $90,000; the Shearwater, which is the name of the Esquimalt dockyard, $207,425; Atlantic defences, $296,000; Pacific defences, $229,500.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In this vote is not included the amount requisite for the operation of the ISftobe and the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: During the war, no.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Supposing there were no war?


John Douglas Hazen: These boats, when war broke out, were placed at the disposal of the Admiralty. When the war is over the expense of operating these ships cannot any longer be charged up to the war vote, and it is necessary, in case the war comes to a sudden termination, to have a vote from which these expenses can be paid. As I said before, my impression had been that it would not be necessary to have .such a large amount as $1,000,000, the amount which was voted last year, but after considering the matter the Deputy Minister of Finance thought that if this amount were not provided difficulties might arise if the war came to a sudden termination.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Of course, it is a very nice problem to determine what amount should'be expended from the ordinary sums voted by Parliament for the maintenance of any service directly involved in the war, and what should be taken from the credit vote of $50,000,000. This is a matter to which I think the Government have not given very careful attention. It is true that they insist upon passing Orders in Council for every expenditure made under the war credit vote, but I want to submit to the minister that in the ordinary vote there is a certain amount for the maintenance and operation of the Niobe, and that amount could be used, notwithstanding the fact that the Niobe is now under the control of the Admiralty and engaged in war operations. Supposing we were not in a state of war. The Niobe is in our possession and in any event it would cost something to operate her, for which purpose there
is a vote in our ordinary Estimates. This amount might be used, as far as it will go, towards the cost of operation at the present time. I think the same thing is being done in England. They have experienced some difficulty in working it out so as to adjust properly the expenditure which comes from the war credit vote and that which comes from their ordinary supply. I doubt very much whether it can be said that the vote made by Parliament for the maintenance of the Canadian nayal ships should not be applied in some way; the expenditure should not, at any rate, be all charged to the war vote.


John Douglas Hazen: That view presented itself, and was considered. The opinion entertained by officers of the department was ' that it would be most difficult to adjust it in the way suggested by my hon. friend. As a matter of fact, I recollect that one of the officers of the department told me that it had been found practically impossible in the case of the British navy to work out a system of that kind. As the money is paid by the country in any case, the matter would not seem to be of very great importance.


John Howard Sinclair: I notice that the vote
includes an appropriation for the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve. Will the minister tell us if he is making any progress in regard to obtaining volunteers for the navy, and what action he has taken in the matter generally?


John Douglas Hazen: We commenced organizing naval volunteers in British Columbia, where there was already a volunteer organization. Although no provision _ has been made by the Government for it, even before the regulation referred to by the hon. member for Guysborough was parsed a large number of citizens had organized at their own expense in Victoria and Esquimalt a naval volunteer reserve force. All we had done up to that time to assist them was to place at their disposal a shed and other facilities for their training at Esquimalt. We proceeded to organize a naval volunteer reserve there, and they have been a very useful body. We have been absolutely prevented from proceeding further with the work by reason of the fact that it has been impossible to get competent instructors to take charge of these naval volunteers. The naval reservists who were in this country before the war broke out have since joined the British

navy, and it has been difficult to get competent men to act as instructors. The organization in Victoria, however, has proved to be of great value. A large number of the men have gone on board the Rainbow, and many have been there ever since. Numbers of the men are serving in different capacities, as follows: on the Rainbow, 57; on the Aid, a ship engaged in connection with naval work, 20; on the Prince George, which was chartered for a time as a hospital ship, 18; in the barracks on shore duty, l76; in other capacities, about 107. This makes 35 officers and 387 men, a total of 422.


John Howard Sinclair: Have these men enlisted for any stated number of years?


John Douglas Hazen: They have enlisted for the duration of the war, or for three years; that is to say, the length of service is three years, and if the war lasts that long, at the end of the three years their contract has been completed and they are at liberty to retire from the service.


John Howard Sinclair: They are not all on the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: Some are on the Rainbow, some on the Prince George, and some on the Aid.


John Howard Sinclair: Are there none on the Niobe?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The minister
might give us the enlistment strength of the Niobe.


John Douglas Hazen: On the Niobe there are about 700 and on'the Rainbow about 300 The Niobe was manned by a certain number of men when the war broke out. On the Pacific coast there were two small British vessels, the Shearwater and the Algerine, which were the last remnant of the British navy on the Pacific coast. Those boats were kept at Esquimalt. They were small vessels of about 1,000 tons each and were used for the purpose of flying the British flag where it was thought well to do so. At the time the war broke out both of these boats were in Mexican waters to show the British flag there. They came up along the coast and, as a matter of fact, day in and day out, we were watching for signs of them because there was very great fear that they would be captured by German cruisers which were understood to be abroad in the Pacific ocean. These vessels made their way up to Esquimalt again and they never sighted the Germans. One of

them, in fact did not know that war had been declared until she arrived at Esquimalt. They are very slow boats making about ten knots an hour. The British Government laid these two boats up at Esquimalt. They gave us one of them as a parent boat to the submarines and the crews of the two boats were brought across and placed upon the Niobe at Halifax. In addition to that we enlisted several hundred naval reservists, thoroughly trained men, with experience in the British navy and still young enough to serve, in the city of Toronto, and in addition to that we have about 100 naval reservists from Newfoundland.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How many came from the two ships of the British navy?


John Douglas Hazen: I think not quite 300.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did Captain Corbett come from one of them?


John Douglas Hazen: He was captain of the Algerine and he took command of the Niobe.
Sir WILFRID LAL'RIER: Will the statement which my hon. friend promised for Monday contain a full statement of the ships of which our fleet is now composed?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, all the ships we have and the number of men in the service. I shall also state what part we have taken since the war broke out.


Wilfrid Laurier: Could my hon. friend give us to-day information about the naval college?


John Douglas Hazen: We have in the Royal
Naval College 28 cadets. The number applying for the examinations in the month of April this year show that our accommodation there, which is only about 45 students, will be taxed to the utmost for the first time. As the college continues and the work it is doing becomes appreciated the number of applications is increasing.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the age at which young men are admitted?


John Douglas Hazen: Between 14 and 16; not
over 16. We have had to refuse applications in a good many cases where young men were over 16 years of age. Some of the oases seem hard but we must not depart from the rule because if these young men are to have a career in the navy they must enter under 16 years. A man entering the college at 16 would be handicapped because when he joined a ship he would be older than the other midshipmen and it would not be

satisfactory from any standpoint. The age in England is between 13 and 14 years. In Canada the limit was fixed at 16 because it was thought, and properly thought, that our boys are not allowed to go away from home to school as early as they are in England.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would like a statement of the organization of the college, the number of professeors, etc.


John Douglas Hazen: The captain in charge, who is the head of the college, is Captain E. H. Martin. He is not on salary as a professoT, but is on the list of the Halifax dockyards. The director of studies is Mr. B. F. Hartley; the naval instructor, Mr. C. G. Allin; the engineer lieutenant, Mr. Angus D. M. Curry. There is also a boatswain, Mr. G. W. Brooker, who does practical work in connection with the instruction of the cadets. The civillian masters are Messrs. L. N. Richardson, John D. Pinhey, and A. C. Hatcher. In addition there is a matron of sick quarters, Mrs. F. L. Barnstead. The subjects taught at the college are mathematics, navigation, mechanics, physics, chemistry, engineering, seamanship, pilotage, either French or German, English, geography and history, including naval history. After serving with the college for some time these young men go to sea, where they are taught seamanship, pilotage, gunnery, torpedo-, applied electricity, mathematics, navigation, engineering, applied mechanics, ship 'construction, and the principles of heat and steam. At the end of each college term the progress of the cadets is tested by examination. We have at present serving on the cruiser Berwick eight cadets under Naval Instructor David A. F. Robinson. These cadets are William J. R. Beech, Thos. S. Critchley, John C. I. Edwards, Donald St. Geo. Lindsay, Howard E. Reed, Henry W. Soulsby, Cuthbert R. H. Taylor, Robert W. Wood. Among those who are serving in His Majesty's Navy in this fight are a number of college cadets, and from the reports we have received they have covered themselves with credit. One of them is a son of my hon. friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau), and we have received very good reports about him. My hon. friend was good enough to send me a photograph of his son in uniform, and I am sure there could not be a finer looking specimen of Canadian manhood. Four of our cadets were lost in the disaster to the Good Hope: G. V. W. Hatheway of Fredericton; M.
Camm of Yarmouth; and A. W. Silver and W. A. Palmer, both of Halifax.


John Howard Sinclair: They were all cadets
from the Halifax college?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The minister has given us the names of those serving on the Berwick. On what ships are the other cadets from the college?


John Douglas Hazen: They are serving on different ships. The names of the Canadian officers serving on His Majesty's ships are: Charles T. Beard, sub-lieutenant; Victor G. Brodeur, sub-lieutenant; Geo. P. Clark, engineer lieutenant; Stanley N. DeQuette-ville, engineer lieutenant; L. J. M. Gauvreau, midshipman; Frank H. Jefferson, engineer lieutenant; Hubert J. Napier Hemy, engineer lieutenant; Percy W. Nelles, lieutenant; John Eric W. Oland, midshipman; John M. Grant, midshipman; and Geo. C. Jones, midshipman. The father of Charles T. Beard is a civil servant, I believe, here in Ottawa. Victor G. Brodeur is a son of Mr. Justice Brodeur of the Supreme Court, and L. J. M. Gauvreau is a son of the-hon. member for Temiscouata.


William John Macdonald: On what vessels are Midshipmen Murray and Dand?


John Douglas Hazen: They are both serving on the Niobe.


William John Macdonald: What other midshipmen are on the Niobe?


John Douglas Hazen: R. I. Agnew, L. W. Murray, D. B. Moffat, G. A. Worth, J. D. Laurie, H. R. Tingley, A. F. L. Wilkinson, Alex. H. Dand, Ronald C. WTatson.


William John Macdonald: How many cadets altogether are serving in the navy?


John Douglas Hazen: About twenty, besides the eight cadets serving on the Berwick. I do not know whether my hon. friend from Pictou was in the House when I was saying that we believe the college will be crowded to full capacity after the April examinations. The college is situated in the naval yard at Halifax, in what used to be the hospital building. If the college continues to grow as we expect, it will be necessary in the near future to seek better quarters. It occurred to me when I was in Halifax last summer that a magnificent site for a naval college would be that splendid property in Halifax where the Admiral used to live. The house is magnificent, but I do not know whether it would be suitable

for a college, and the grounds are very beautiful and extensive.


Wilfrid Laurier: As far as I can judge, the organization of the college seems to be very thorough. I hope my hon. friend will be able to bring it up to the standard of the Royal Military College at Kingston, which is a great credit to Canada.


John Douglas Hazen: I quite agree with my hon. friend that the military college is a great credit to this country, and that standard will be something for us to keep in view. The military college at Kingston turns out young men capable of filling positions not only in military but in civil life. We hope to make the naval college as great a credit to the country as the military college at Kingston.


William Pugsley: When was the organization of the naval college commenced?


John Douglas Hazen: In 1910.


William Pugsley: It has made good progress.
At six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 107, respecting a patent of John Milne & Son, Limited.-Mr. Kyte.
Bill No. 108, respecting the Moncton and Northumberland Straits Railway Company. *-Mr. Robidoux.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
['There was a statement showing the whole cost, in answer to a question given to the House this session. I will look it up for my hon. friend. He will find it in Hansard.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.\nMonday, March 29, 1915.']
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would like to ask the hon. the Minister of Naval Affairs (Mr. Hazen) what are the disbursements per month in connection with the operation
of the Niobe, exclusive of the wages that are paid to the officers and men?


John Douglas Hazen: For stores and provisions on the Niobe the expenditure was $96,675. The total expenditure for stores of all sorts, including provisions, clothing' allowance, medical stores, naval stores, stationery, freight on stores, dockyard stores and contingencies, is $305,575.	.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the $98,000.


John Douglas Hazen: $96,675 for provisions.
IMr. Hazen.]


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How does the minister purchase the provisions?


John Douglas Hazen: By tender and contract with the exception of some very small and trifling items. In the Naval Service Department all supplies and stores are purchased by tender and contract.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are tenders for the supplies of the Niobe asked, at stated periods, or to suit the requirements?


John Douglas Hazen: Tenders for the .main supplies are asked twice a year.


Mr. LOGGIE:: The following letter is addressed to the editor of the Union Advocate of Newcastle:
Dear Sir,-We would like to know from the authorities at Ottawa how it is that the manager ot the wireless station here is an American who persists in displaying the American flag over his office door, so that all Britishers and others entering must pass under it; also that all Canadian and British employees have been discharged and a number of foreigners taken on instead. Is the Universal Radio Syndicate an English company, or is it an alien company? If the latter, why the need for a guard?
(Sgd.) Subscriber.


Mr. ROGERS:: What is the name of the paper?


William Stewart Loggie: The Union Advocate, of Newcastle, N.B., where the wireless system is established.


Robert Rogers: Has it any circulation?


William Stewart Loggie: Yes, it has some circulation.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, it is an old paper; I have known it for a long time. It used to be published by Mr. Amslow years ago.


William Stewart Loggie: It is pot published or
owned by Mr. Amslow now. It is a dyed-in-the-wool party paper. I suppose I can answer the question of the writer insofar as to say that the Universal Radio Syndicate is an English company. Still I am sure it would be interesting to the public at large to know the circumstances under which this wireless system was taken over by the Government. It was constructed very recently, and it was not much more than in working order when war was declared. It was lately taken over by the Government, and I suppose we all should be glad if such means of communication are available to the Government. The Government gave power to the English syndicate to construct this radio system. I understand that it has been in general use since war has been declared. It

would be interesting to the people of my county as well as the House to know to what extent it has been used and what are the circumstances that are referred to by this writer in connection with it, providing it is something that the public ought to know and it is not necessary to observe any secrecy in connection with it.


John Douglas Hazen: The information contained in this article, as far as I know, is quite incorrect. It is a private company, this is not one of the stations that is owned by the Government and the Government have not taken the station over. I understand that the station is not doing a commercial business yet. It connects with a station on the coast of Ireland at a place called Bally-bunnion. It is not perfect yet, but there are messages passing, and it may prove in the future of very great importance. If anything should happen to the station at Glace Bay I suppose the Militia Department thought it desirable to afford this station some protection from that standpoint, but we do not appoint the officers, and my deputy minister, who is fairly familiar with the wireless stations which the department controls at other places, says that he thinks that it is absolutely incorrect to say that any officials there are not British subjects. I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend any more information, but it does not come within my jurisdiction.


Mr. KYTE:: Surely the question of flying a foreign flag in this country comes under the jurisdiction of some department of the Government?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not suppose for a
moment that it is true/ My attention was never called to such a thing.


George William Kyte: I think it is a matter that
ought to be inquired into. I know that from time to time' we have seen in the newspaper press descriptions of incidents that happen in some parts of the United States when the British flag is flown on certain semi-public occasions. While I deprecate any such thing as a hostile demonstration because of the mere fact that the flag of a friendly nation is flown to the breeze, when it comes to the flying of the flag of the United States as a custom on one of our Canadian institutions in the province of New Brunswick, surely the Government ought to take some cognizance of it and inquire into the conditions under which it is permitted.


John Douglas Hazen: So far as I know, there is no law in this country to prevent a citizen of Canada from flying the American flag if he chooses to do so. Perhaps we are more broad-minded in that respect than are the citizens of the United States. It is not an uncommon thing in this country in the summer season to see the American flag flying from a hotel owned by a British subject, who is thoroughly loyal to the British Crown and to Canada, out of compliment to his American guests. This is a private company.


George William Kyte: Subsidized by the Government.


John Douglas Hazen: No, it has obtained nothing from our department, and it has no subsidy from the Government. This Government has not put a dollar of money into that private company, nor in any way assisted it financially. It is an English corporation; and if it chooses to % the American flag, although it may be very bad taste for that company to do so, yet there is no law in this country under which we can interfere. We live on terms of amity and good will with our friends in the United States, and I do not think we should make any complaint in regard to this matter. I do not approve of the practice of flying the American flag from hotels owned by British subjects: I would rather see our own flag flying,' that is, the British flag with the Canadian scroll upon it. I do not think, however, there is any reason for making a serious matter out of this incident. The deputy' minister informed me that all the officials were British subjects. He asks me to correct that statement. He says that one of the managers, he thinks, is an American citizen.


William Stewart Loggie: I do not think the illustration given by the minister is as happy as it might be. It is not a question of flying the American flag: it is a question of a doorway being draped with the American flag.


John Douglas Hazen: That is not so bad then.


William Stewart Loggie: The letter says:
So all Britishers and others entering must pass under it; also that all Canadian and British employees have been dismissed and a number of foreigners taken on instead.
The fact that the Department of Naval Service has not charge of that station i3 news to me.


John Douglas Hazen: Has tfhe hon. gentleman taken any steps to ascertain whether the statement in that letter is true or not ?


William Stewart Loggie: No. I am bringing it to the attention of the minister in order to find out whether it is true or not. The company displayed the American flag, and it is a question whether that was the proper thing to do under the present circumstances.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think it is in good taste.


William Stewart Loggie: The minister is quite right in that. I was surprised when the minister said 'that the station was not under the control of his department. I presume, then, it is under the control of the Department of Militia and Defence ?


John Douglas Hazen: The station belongs to a private company. The Dominion of Canada has nothing to do with its management. The Militia Department probably censors the messages it receives or sends.
.Mr. LOGGIE: I quite' appreciate the fact that it is a British company, but the minister must remember that the Government of this country gave that company its license to build a station, and in time of war it is under the control of the Government. In view of that, the Government should have seen to it that the employees were British subjects, and that the messages that go and come were censored.


John Douglas Hazen: There is a censor.


William Stewart Loggie: Then, I suppose the
Militia Department has charge of that s'ation, and I have gone to the wrong minister for the information.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Stewart Loggie: According to the statement of the minister, he has nothing whatever to do with the employees, and the Naval Department has not the censorship of the messages.


John Douglas Hazen: The censorship is in the Militia Department. I fancy my hon. friend will have to take the matter up with the Major General.
Mr. MACjjONALD:	I think my hon.
friend has come to the right quarter. It is true that the Minister of Militia has to do with the appointment of the censors; but, if I am not mistaken, the wireless telegraph people operate by virtue of licenses granted by the Department of Naval Service.
TMr. Loggie. ]
The control of those wireless offices, particularly in war-time is a matter of public interest, about which the department which grants the licenses should have something to say. I remember in the last Parliament, when hon. gentlemen opposite sat on this siae of the House, we debated for a wiiole day a resolution, which Was seriously put forward, to the effect that the use of the American flag should not be permitted at all in Canada, I would not go so far as that; but I think m a semi-Governmental institution, particularly in war-time, where for the public safety and in the interest of the nation as a whole, the control over war despatches passing through that station is vested in the Government of the day by censorship and otherwise, it is certainly bad taste to fly a foreign flag, when there are good citizens who may be sensitive about the use of such a flag. The statement is made, in this perfectly reputable paper which the minister approves, that the manager of the wireless station persisted in displaying the American flag above' his ofliee door. The writer also alleges that all Canadian and British employees have been discharged and a number of foreigners taken on instead.


John Douglas Hazen: That is not so. Would
the hon. member tell me the date of the
paper?


William John Macdonald: March 24, 1915. My hon. friend probably received the paper yesterday. There is no question about one of the departments of the Government in war-time exercising some control over messages sent by any wireless station in this country. That particular institution which, to that extent at least, is under Government control, should not fly the American flag or any other flag than the British flag over its door. In the next place my hon. friend has brought forward a matter of serious complaint, that is that the control of the sending and the receiving of wireless messages by this particular station is entirely in the hands of those who are not British subjects. If it is true that those who are British subjects have been dismissed and their places filled by those who belong to a foreign country, that is a proper matter for inquiry, and the minister ought to look into it. The license being in his control, he could stop the sending of despatches at any moment. There ought to be a British flag over that station, and the people who operate there, as far as possible should be British subjects.


John Douglas Hazen: The operators there are all British subjects without any exception, the deputy minister informs me. At one time some Danes were employed there. They are not there now, British subjects having taken their places. That letter may or may not be true. It may be that some man has an inside room, and that he may have a British flag and an American flag in it.


William John Macdonald: The American flag is flying over the door.


John Douglas Hazen: It does not appear that
the flag is flying from the building. We will, however, look into the matter.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister inform the committee in what condition the Niobe was at the outbreak of the war and what officers and crew were on her? If she was put in drydock, what repairs were necessary before she was ready to proceed to sea? And about what date was she fully equipped for sea?


John Douglas Hazen: The ship was in very good condition. Some of her machinery had been disconnected, and there was what you might call a nucleus crew on board. She was put in drydock, and certain work was done connecting up the machinery. She was ready for sea on the 1st of September.	*


William John Macdonald: When was her crew aboard and the vessel completely manned?


John Douglas Hazen: She sailed on the 1st of September from Halifax and went to Newfoundland, and took on Newfoundland reserves of something like one hundred men who constituted part of her crew.


George William Kyte: Does any portion of this vote go to maintain the Niobe and the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: Not during the period of the war. I explained that before dinner.


George William Kyte: Are these ships in commission at this time?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


George William Kyte: Have they fairly well performed their work since the outbreak of the war?


John Douglas Hazen: So far as I know. The Niobe has been based on Halifax, and has been in and out of that port. She renders assistance, I believe, in keeping clear the trade routes. The Rainbow has been on the Pacific coast. She was fully equipped and manned at the time the war broke out. I believe she has given good satisfaction.
The Rainbow is a cruiser of 3,400 tons, and the Niobe a cruiser of 12,000 tons.


George William Kyte: What is the speed of these ships?


John Douglas Hazen: They are each about 18 knots.


George William Kyte: The minister stated that their work was to keep clear the trade routes. I suppose that means keeping trade routes clear of the enemy's ships?


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose that is what the Niobe has been doing. She is based on Halifax. The Rainbow on the Pacific coast was available for any defensive operation.


George William Kyte: The minister is confident they could give a good account of themselves should they run across a German cruiser?


John Douglas Hazen: That would depend on the German cruiser they ran across.


George William Kyte: The minister is not afraid to allow these ships to get in the way of a German cruiser?


John Douglas Hazen: She probably would not get in the way of any German cruiser on the Pacific, she is so much slower than they are.


George William Kyte: All the more likely to get in the way.


John Douglas Hazen: She could not overtake one, but if overtaken she could not get out of the way. She is about the same size and tonnage as the Dresden and the Leipsic, but very much slower.


George William Kyte: The minister does not think that the men of these ships would be afraid to give battle to a German cruiser should they meet with one?


John Douglas Hazen: I am confident the men in the navy would not 'be afraid of anything.


George William Kyte: They would be quite confident in engaging a German cruiser?


John Douglas Hazen: I could not tell what is in their mind.


George William Kyte: They have not made complaints that the Niobe and the Rainbow were not fully equipped?


John Douglas Hazen: They would not make any complaint.


George William Kyte: The minister has no information that they are in any way afraid of the consequences in case of an engagement with the enemy?


John Douglas Hazen: No, I do not think a British sailor would be afraid of anything.


George William Kyte: That is quite true. As
regards the condition of these ships and their guns and other equipment, they are all that are necessary to maintain an action against an enemy's ship?


John Douglas Hazen: I think that the officers and crew of the Rainbow have acted with all possible courage, and if they had got into an engagement with a German' ship they would have conducted themselves in a way to make us and the British Empire proud of them. The same is true of the officers and crew of the Rainbow, they would discharge their duties with unflinching courage. In naval warfare to-day much depends on the ship you run across. A ship of lighter armament and with smaller guns is at a disadvantage in an engagement with a ship more heavily armoured and with guns of longer range. The guns on the Niobe, while of the same calibre as the guns on the Dresden and Leipsic would not carry so far. They are guns of an older type. So, she might be hit at a range so long that she could not strike the ship engaging her.


George William Kyte: Are these ships equipped with the same guns as before 1911?


John Douglas Hazen: I think so.


George William Kyte: The minister has not taken any step to strengthen the equipment?


John Douglas Hazen: No. I think the Hon. gentleman does not quite understand. These ships are placed at the disposal of the Admiralty and are to-day absolutely controlled by the Admiralty; we do not interfere with the orders in any way. If the Admiralty should make a representation to us that further armament was required, I presume we should take steps at once to meet their wishes.	*


George William Kyte: What other defences are there on the coast of British Columbia in addition to the services rendered by the Rainbow.


John Douglas Hazen: There are two submarines, CC-1 andCC-2.


George William Kyte: Owned by this Government?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but like the other vessels, controlled by the Admiralty.


George William Kyte: What additional defence is there on the Atlantic coast?


John Douglas Hazen: I should not have said that the submarines were the only additional de-

fence on the Pacific coast. Canada owned some small boats, and these are in use. We have also had a number of British vessels on the British Columbia coast, such as the Newcastle, and two Japanese cruisers, which have been acting in concert with the naval authorities at Esquimalt. On the Atlantic coast as the hon. gentleman probably knows, a number of the vessels of the British Navy are based on Halifax and are in and out of that harbour during recent months, the Lancaster, the Essex and the Suffolk; and 1 understand that at one time the Princess Royal, one of the largest vessels of the British Navy, a vessel of the battle cruiser type, with most modern armament and capable of a speed of over thirty knots an hour, visited Halifax.


Mr. PARDEE:: Has one of the submarines of the Canadian Government been in dry-dock?


John Douglas Hazen: One had to have some repairs because on one occasion she struck the bottom. We receive daily reports as to what they are doing and they are both in the very best possible condition.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand that, the Niobe was repaired last summer or autumn, about the time that, the war broke out, and that she was ready for sea in September. .


John Douglas Hazen: She sailed on September 1.


John Howard Sinclair: How much was expended on the repairs which were made to the Niobe on that occasion?


John Douglas Hazen: Somewhere in the vicinity of $25,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What repairs were
made?


John Douglas Hazen: The amount which I have stated includes all repairs, dry-docking and everything else. There was nothing specially wrong with her; she was put in dry-dock chiefly as a measure of precaution, in order to see that everything was in proper shape before she sailed.


John Howard Sinclair: When had she been in dry-dock previously?


John Douglas Hazen: Not since the time she met with an accident in coming from Yarmouth. At that time extensive repairs were made; I think she had not been in dry-dock from that time until just before she sailed.


John Howard Sinclair: 1913?


John Douglas Hazen: That was in the summer of 1911.


William John Macdonald: A great number of Canadian vessels are employed in the Government service in and about Halifax harbour at the present time; in fact Hah-fax has become once more a naval station, as it was in the olden 'days. In addition to the vessels of the Imperial navy, Canadian vessels, which for the time being are engaged in the naval service, are operating in that vicinity. I suggest to the minister that seafaring people of the Maritime Provinces should be encouraged to serve on these ships.


John Douglas Hazen: The Margaret, which was a customs boat; the Canada, and the Tuna, which was presented to us by Mr. Jack Ross, are all manned by Canadians. The Canada is officered and manned by the same men as made up her crew when she was taken over and put into the naval service. The same is true of the Margaret. The Margaret was built in the Old Country for the Customs Department, and was handed over to us for naval purposes. These boats have all been of great service along the river and gulf of St. Lawrence, off Halifax, in the Atlantic and in the Bay of Fundy. The members of the crews are all Canadians.


William John Macdonald: That is true, but
what I mean is that these crews could be made the nucleus of a naval service. The men could be enlisted, as it were, into the naval service for such term of years as usually applies to such cases. I heard the minister suggest that on account of the difficulty of obtaining naval instructors, proceedings in the "way of forming a naval reserve had been somewhat retarded in the West. I am suggesting that on account of having these vessels on active but not dangerous service, an opportunity arises for taking the course to which I refer.


John Douglas Hazen: When the three vessels to *which I have referred were handed over to the naval service, we could not retain the men who were on them, because the service is a voluntary service. The men nearly all volunteered, however; they have signed articles to 'Continue during the period of war if it does not last longer than three years, so that they are all enlisted as regular members of the navy at the present time.


William John Macdonald: The course I was
suggesting has been anticipated by my hon. friend, and to that extent we have in the
crews of these three vessels, seamen of the Canadian navy. I am sure that the action of Mr. Jack Ross in purchasing the steamer which he diid and in presenting it to the Canadian Government, himself volunteering for service in connection with its operations, is deserving of some remark by this committee and the House. I have no doubt that the minister will cheerfully and cordially endorse any complimentary remarks that may be made in that respect. I happen to know Mr. Ross very well, and am in a position to speak of the admirable spirit which he displayed in connection with the whole matter and the very laudable ambition which animated him and still animates him to do something, if possible, to assist Canada and the Empire upon the sea. I know that the extent to which his efforts in that direction would go is limited only by the opportunities afforded him to carry his ideas into effect. The vessel which he handed over to the Government, together with the others which are engaged in that service, are doing good work in connection with the operations in Halifax and vicinity.	"


John Douglas Hazen: I fully agree with what my hon. friend has said about Mr. Eoss. This is not Mr. Ross's only patriotic act since the war broke out; no citizen-of Canada has shown a more patriotic desire to advance tlie cause of Canada and of the Empire at the present time than he has. I had intended1 making reference to this matter on Monday, when the War Bill is before the House.	,


William John Macdonald: I trust that the
minister will not feel that I anticipated in any way the formal statement which he intended to make in that regard. It might be well to note the facts in regard to the position of the Niobe of which there has been a great deal of misunderstanding. I find by the Naval Annual that the Niobe is a vessel of 11,000 tons displacement, has an armament of 16 6-inch guns, 12 12-pounders; 3 3-pounders and 2 machine guns. She is of exactly the same age, size and armament as the Ariadne, a vessel which, if I mistake not, under very gallant leadership, was especially conspicuous in the attack made on Heligoland at an earlier period of the war. She is also larger than the Berwick and the Cornwall.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. member, I think, is mistaken; it was the Ar thusa.


William John Macdonald: The Ariadne was
also engaged at an earlier period of the year.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


William John Macdonald: The Arethusa may
have been the flagship of Admiral Beat!/, but the Ariadne was employed in attacks at the time.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so.


William John Macdonald: She was distinctly
mentioned in the press at the time. It would be wise to notice the statements contained in the Naval Annual in order to make comparisons of the size and equipment of the Niobe with many of the vessels engaged in naval warfare on the other side. I am glad to note that the minister tells us that the Niobe, when sent out to sea on December 1, was fully equipped and in a position to take her part, together with the vessels of the Imperial navy that have been on our trade routes since that time. Having been at Halifax frequently since the war began and having met naval officers who have been on British vessels that have been there, I happen to be in a position to know something of the services which have been performed but have not been published for the very reason that the operation of these vessels is not made public in the public interest. That what Canadian vessels wTe have on the Atlantic coast have been a factor, in conjunction with other vessels coming from the other side, in keeping the north Atlantic clear of German cruisers is, I am sure, a matter of gratification to every one.
Fisheries protection service-to provide for the repairs and maintenance of the fisheries protection steamers, $375,000.


George William Kyte: I have received the following resolution passed by the municipality of the county of Richmonjl, N.S.:
Arichat, Nova Scotia,
February 27, 1915.
In the Municipal Council, Municipal County of Richmond, Jan. 16, 1915.
Resolved, that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries be memorialized by this council, to take active steps to prevent the further depredations of beam trawlers operating at night in the waters of this municipality; further
Resolved, that the minister be implored to establish a patrol to check the open violation of the federal regulations by these encroachers; and further
Resolved, that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Hon. J. D. Hazen, Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to the federal representative, and to Messrs, J. C. Douglas and R. H. Butts.
D. H. Campbell,
Municipal Clerk.
I would ask the minister if he has received a copy of this resolution?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, a copy of the resolution, I think, was received in the department.


George William Kyte: This is a matter which deeply concerns the deep-fishing population in the county I represent. The subject has been discussed more or less frequently in this House and in the public press for years. We were assured by the Conservative party when in Opposition that they fully appreciated the damage which has been inflicted upon the shore fishermen in the province of Nova Scotia by these beam trawlers, and they announced by resolution at various meetings that, should their party come into power, they would take immediate steps to prohibit the use of these trawlers in the waters of the Maritime Provinces. I very much regret that their depredations are still being continued. I wish the minister would give us some assurance to-night that steps will be taken in the immediate future to prohibit the use of beam trawlers upon the coast of the Maritime Provinces.


John Douglas Hazen: Last year we had only two complaints in regard to trawlers having been within territorial waters. We at once carefully investigated these complaints, and the result of the investigation showed that they had not been within the three-mile limit. That, however, is not exactly what the fishermen want; they want the trawlers kept at a greater distance from the shore. If they get inside the three-mile limit it is because we do not give proper protection; but if some arrangement could be made to keep the beam trawlers a greater distance off, the fishermen believe it would be to their interest. We took this matter up with the fishery authorities of the United States and Newfoundland, and steps were taken in both countries to ascertain the effect of this beam trawling. That information has been obtained within the last two weeks. We have received a communication on ithe subject, and we believe thait within a short time it will be possible to have a conference of representatives of the United States, Newfoundland and Canada for the purpose of discussing this question and seeing what steps can be taken, by mutual arrangement., with regard to the evil complained of. That, however, leaves out of consideration the French trawler which comes across the ocean, and is absolutely within its legal right in doing so. I intended to make a statement to the House explaining the whole matter; I am having the statement prepared now, so that it may be perfectly accurate, as the matter is one

of international importance, and I shall make that statement to the House before prorogation.


George William Kyte: 1 brought the matter up tonight because, as the minister knows, we are very busy with committees, and I feared ,1 might not be present when it came before the House again.


John Howard Sinclair: Mr. Sinclair:
Have foreign steam trawlers been permitted to purchase coal and supplies at the Port of North Sydney, N.S., since the passing of Chapter 14 of the Acts of 1913?
Mr. J. D. Reid. Yes. The present collector at North Sydney says French steam trawlers have been permitted to purchase coal and supplies at the port of North Sydney, N.S., since he has been in office.
I got that answer on the 22nd February, this year. It contradicts the answer given by my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries a few days before, but I assume that the first answer was a blunder, because there is no doubt that French trawlers have had the free run of Canadian ports since that Act was passed. This is a great disappointment to the fishermen of the Maritime Provinces, who expected some relief from that measure, and I wish to bring the matter to the attention of the minister. I also wish to remind him of what my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) said, namely, that the party of hon. gentlemen opposite, in Nova Scotia at all events, took very strong ground on this question when they were out of power. They took the ground, and not only in Nova Scotia, but in the House here, that the late Government had not taken sufficient interest in the fishermen in regard to this question of steam trawling. It will be remembered that steam trawling was first commenced on the coasts of this country ifi 1908. Within two or three weeks of the arrival of the first trawlers along the coast of my own constituency, an Order in Council was passed prohibiting the operations of steam trawlers in the bays and harbours and within three miles of the coast of Canada, both east and west. That regulation has been fairly well enforced, although I understand that in certain sections it has not been absolutely enforced. The difficulty in enforcing the regulations is that these trawlers work in the night, when it is almost impossible for the cutters to watch them. But the regulation was a good one, and went a long way in the direction of assisting the fishermen. But of course it did not relate to the deep-sea fishing, which is a very important part of the industry.
At a convention of the Conservative party held at Truro in 1909, a resolution was passed to the effect that if the Conservatives came into power they would introduce measures to prevent steam trawling not only in Canadian waters, but outside of Canadian waters; and when my hon. friend introduced his Bill we thought it was in fMr. Sinclair.]
redemption of that pledge. And I must say to my hon. friend that there was a great deal of disappointment*when it was realized that the Act had been wholly inoperative during the two years after it- was passed, and that no attempt at all had been made towards putting it into force.


John Douglas Hazen: When the Act was introduced I remember the speech I made and also the discussion which took place. I certainly hope we may find a way by which we can minimize the effect of the French trawlers making ports in Canada the bases for their operations, the purchase of supplies, and things of that sort. The hon. gentleman will remember that the Act referred to prevents vessels, other than those having a right by treaty, from coming into Canadian ports. When the Act was passed in 1913 representations were made by the Government of France, through their Consular Agent in Montreal, who contended that, as under the treaty with Japan the Japanese fishermen had the right to come into our ports for certain purposes, and that, as France was a favoured nation, we could not exclude French trawlers from our ports so long as the Japanese treaty was in effect. This gentleman argued that matter very strongly, and I submitted the question t-o the Minister of Justice and had several discussions with him and with the Consul of France. The result was that the Justice Department were of the opinion that, in view of the Japanese treaty, it was practically impossible for us to enforce this Act of 1913 because of the fact that France was a favoured nation and must be accorded the same rights as those which were given to Japan under the treaty to which I have referred. I think that whoever prepared the answer which my hon. friend refers to, and which was done in a hurry and without consideration, evidently had in mind that the Act had been carried out as far as it could be with regard to all Countries except those which had treaty rights. That is the difficulty that we have come up against, and it is a difficulty that it seems impossible to overcome as long as that treaty with Japan remains in existence. My hon. friend knows how in making all these treaties there is what is called a favoured nation clause under which, if any favour is given to a nation, the same advantage has to be given all other nations which have favoured nation clauses in any treaties which they may have entered into with us. That is the difficulty that confronts the

department in dealing with this question There is another way in which I am trying to deal with it and I hope it will work out in a few days. I am getting the opinion of the Department of Justice and of the Department of Customs and I trust * it will give some measure of relief.


John Howard Sinclair: I am afraid that if we succeeded with the United States and Newfoundland the French trawlers come in such large numbers that the effort would be useless.


John Douglas Hazen: The difficulty of the French trawlers could be minimized to some extent by international regulations if the different nations would enter into them. In the North sea, where they have immense numbers of trawlers, there are regulations. There is a North Sea Convention, entered into by the Governments of all the countries with the fishermen who go to the North sea, that has proved to be very efficacious there. To-day there are regulations as to the territory which shall be fished over, those regulations are laid down for the governing of everybody who fishes in the North sea, and each nation supplies a vessel for the purpose of patrolling the district and seeing that the regulations are enforced. If this could be done the difficulty which is experienced on the banks when the trawlers are fishing, and the danger under which the boat fishermen labour of having, their nets and gear destroyed by the trawlers, could be very much minimized. I think we have got to the point now where we can get a convention of that sort so far as the United States and Newfoundland are concerned. I agree with my hon. friend that there is some difficulty in regard to the French fishermen who come over every year to ply their calling on the banks of Newfoundland. If the Newfoundland Government and the United States Government enter into an agreement of this 'Sort it may be possible to bring moral pressure upon the French Government as well to agree to the pass

ing of regulations of that sort and to enter into an agreement to that effect. That is the only remedy I can see except the measure, not iso far reaching, which I hope to bring before the House. The Act of 1913 prevents any foreign fishing vessels " not permitted by treaty ot convention " from entering our ports. It is these words that have made it so difficult for us to enforce the Act as against France. At the time that I introduced the Bill I did not foresee the difficulty, and nobody in my
department foresaw it. Neither did the officials of the Justice Department. We did not have the Japanese treaty in our minds.


John Howard Sinclair: It would be interesting if the minister would place the opinion of the Department of Justice on the table so that we might have an opportunity of reading it, or place it on Hansard when he makes his statement.


John Douglas Hazen: I have no written opinion from the Department of Justice. The matter has been .discussed verbally between the Minister of Justice, the Deputy Minister of Justice, and myself, but no written opinion has been given to us. Perhaps I should not say that an absolute opinion has been come to, but the opinion they had upon it was that it would not be desirable for us to proceed to enforce the law in view of the Japanese treaty. It is desirable to have the opinion, but perhaps it is not well to press an opinion of that sort too strongly at the present time.


John Howard Sinclair: If we have any legal rights it is well that we should know it. In dealing with this question I think the proper course would be to reserve certain territory at sea in which steam trawling would be absolutely prohibited. We cannot expect to get the French nation, or any ioreign nation, to agree that the whole Atlantic ocean shall be withdrawn from the operation of fishing vessels.


John Douglas Hazen: But we might get them to agree to regulations.


John Howard Sinclair: The gulf of St. Lawrence, which is the great breeding ground of the fish, might be reserved. I think that would be a reasonable request. The gulf of St. Lawrence is surrounded by British territory, and it is really an inland sea belonging to Canada. It was a great misfortune, -when these bays were defined in the convention at the1 Hague, that the gulf of St. Lawrence was not included among Canadian waters. If the gulf of St. Lawrence could be withdrawn from the use of steam trawlers that would be a great step in advance. But the place where they are operating most is at the Banks. Would it not be a fair proposal to ask that the Banks should be withdrawn from the operation of trawlers? There are certain areas along the coast of Nova Scotia that I think might be regarded as the breeding grounds of cod and haddock, and we might fairly ask that these be withdrawn from the operation of trawlers in the

same way that the sealing question has been dealt with on the Pacific coast. It -has been agreed by Japan, the United States and Great Britain that -seals shall not be killed in certain waters. Fish are just as important. If my hon. friend, in dealing with this question, can -succeed in withdrawing these waters from the use of steam trawlers and allow the trawlers to operate in the rest of the Atlantic ocean, he will have taken a gre-at -step forward even if he cannot go any further. If there are	any documents to	show whatthe legal position of this question is	I would like	to	see	them.
If there are any reports or communications from the United States which my hon. friend can place on the table at the time he addresses the House on the question, they will also be very acceptable.


Alexander William Chisholm: The minister stated that his department had received only two complaints last year in regard to a violation of the regulations prohibiting the operation of steam trawlers within the three-mile limit. When he makes his statement to the House, has he a statement to make with respect to that question also, and does he desire that I do not discuss it now? *


John Douglas Hazen: I am quite willing that my hon. friend discuss it now.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am not particularly anxious to do so, but I do not know whether or not the minister wants us to discuss it at this stage.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not want to shut off discussion at any stage.


Alexander William Chisholm: Shall I have an opportunity when the minister makes his statement?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.
Fisheries protection service-to provide for new vessels, $30,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This vote is for the fisheries protection service on lake Erie. Tne-department, in order to carry out efficiently the fisheries protection work on lake 'Erie, considers that a vessel is required to work in conjunction with the Vigilant, now employed on that service. Inquiries have been made into the matter, and it has been decided to obtain a small vessel which will be more suitable for work around the islands at the end of the lake. It is also proposed to build such a vessel, and designs and specifications have been prepared by the naval architect.


Charles Marcil: Is she to be built in Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. The policy of this Government is to build all our vessels in Canada.


Charles Marcil: Under contract?


John Douglas Hazen: When I say "under contract," there are some vessels that we build at the shipyards -at Sorel. We have a great many men employed there doing repair work, and I think the work is being very well done.
Hydrographic surveys, including the survey of Hudson bay, $390,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The details of this expenditure are: James bay, $30,000; lake Ontario, $30,000; lake Superior, $30,000; the lower St. Lawrence river, $50,000; the Pacific coast, $100,000; the Atlantic coast, $70,000; harbour surveys, $20,000; automatic gauges, $25,000; general amount, $35,000.


John Howard Sinclair: How much for Hudson
bay?


John Douglas Hazen: We have done a considerable amount of work in Hudson bay. We have port Nelson charted and the waters outside port Nelson. We have also charted part of the lower portion of James bay, and the work there has been proceeded with. There is more work, of course, that will have to be done in the future, but very good progress has been made. There is great necessity for work on the lower St. Lawrence and also for work on the Atlantic coast at the present time.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the depth of water at port Nelson?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot tell my hon. friend, because I have not the chart here.


John Howard Sinclair: What size of ship can come into port Nelson without dredging further? -


John Douglas Hazen: At high water vessels can come in that draw from 20 to 25 feet. There is one point where at low water there is only 20 feet of water. A vessel of greater draught than that would have to wait until high tide before coming in.


John Howard Sinclair: What tide is there?


John Douglas Hazen: Seventeen feet.


Frank Oliver: Is the survey at port Nelson merely with a view to acquire a knowledge of the conditions as they are, or is it being made with a view of -the improvement

of those countries in the way of creating a harbour?


John Douglas Hazen: The hydrographic survey
is for the purpose of obtaining accurate knowledge of conditions as they are. It has nothing to do with the work of building or enlarging or dredging harbours; but it affords information that is available to every shipmaster visiting the port, and also information of which the department, which has to do with the management and building and creation of harbours, can avail itself, in order to know what should be done to render the port safe for navigation. The information we have is available to the Department of Railways and to the Department of Public Works. The Department of Railways is carrying on the terminal works at Port Nelson in connection with the Hudson Bay railway. The object of the hydrographic survey is to have accurate charts so as to show the mariners just what the conditions of the waters are along the coast and in the harbour.


Frank Oliver: Is the minister able to say in short terms to the committee what is the condition of access to Port Nelson at the present time?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot do so with any
degree of accuracy without having the chart here. I shall be very happy to send copies of the chart to my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: I should be very glad to '
have them, and I would appreciate the courtesy of the minister in sending them. That, however, is hardly the point to be arrived at. I am quite aware that the minister will say, as he has already said, that if we want information in regard to the projects of the Government regarding Port Nelson, we must apply to the Railway Department; but from the fact that the Naval Department has information as to conditions as they are, it must be possible to draw from a knowledge of those conditions what improvements will be necessary in order to establish Port Nelson as a suitable ocean port. It is not a matter of idle curiosity; it is a matter of very far-reaching importance to the people of the prairie West, particularly in view of the criticisms that are being made from time to time with regard to the project of the Hudson Bay railway.


John Douglas Hazen: 
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Has the report been sent out?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. Every member has it.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Did you find any depth
of water suitable for a harbour at the lower end of James bay.


John Douglas Hazen: There is plenty of depth of water in the lower end of the bay. If my hon. friend would like to see the charts, we will send them to him.


Frank Oliver: Which is the lower end of the bay, the southern?


John Douglas Hazen: I should say the southern end. The James bay survey was in charge of Mr. Jobin, who left Ottawa on the 18th of April and went down the Moose river from Cochrane, Ont. His instructions were to survey the mouth of the Moose river and a portion of the East coast of the bay to ascertain if a harbour could be found at Snake point. He was successful in finding what might be made a very fair harbour. Moose river empties into the bay at the lower end.


Mr. W. H. SHARPE:: Has anything been done about the navigation of the straits?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we had a party there last year. That comes under the marine vote. My recollection is that we have had twelve beacons placed in the straits and a wireless telegraph station established at Port Nelson and one at Le Pas, and provision made for a wireless telegraph station on the straits to communicate with Port Nelson and Le Pas.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the minister any plans to increase the number of wireless stations on the coast of the Maritime Provinces?


John Douglas Hazen: I would be glad to tell my hon. friend privately. Certain work has gone on there in connection with the war which it is not desirable to make public.


Charles Marcil: What is the experience of the navigation of Hudson straits; how long is the navigation season?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not profess to give exact information. Last year was an unusually bad season in the straits; navigation conditions differ there from year to year. I find it stated here:
The serious ice condition found at the west entrance to Hudson strait, north of Mansel island, during- October, is most exceptional and hard to account for. There is little or no tide and current at this point, and a mass of ice once caught would be very likely to remain. As a rule the Fox channel ice never remains long during the season, but passes out of the strait.
That is, the ice from the north.
During the summer of 1912, little or no ice came down, being a fine calm season, and even on the 2nd November the Minto found no ice in this passage. On the contrary, during the past season, extremely and exceptionally heavy northerly winds prevailed, which would have a tendency to carry a great quantity of ice down. An ordinary freight vessel could not for a moment have attempted a passage when the Acadia passed out.
There is no information on hand concerning the passage south and east of Mansel island, and it may possibly have been clear of ice. When the Acadia arrived off the north end it was rather late in the season, and too expensive on coal to risk a trip around to explore. If the navigation into Hudson bay and and straits warrants the-expense, by operating a powerful tug equipped with wireless in connection with a wireless station on the north end of Mansel island, masters of ships could be kept informed regarding the ice conditions, and conduct themselves accordingly.


Charles Marcil: Would the navigation season last, for three months?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not like to speak definitely, but I do not think it would be three months on the average.


Charles Marcil: Would the season be in June, July and August?


John Douglas Hazen: No, later than that. Sometimes navigation may commence in July, but it is usually August, and may continue during September and October.


Charles Marcil: What is the nature of the ice encountered-icebergs?


John Douglas Hazen: Sometimes the place is filled with ice, so that a vessel would have to cut its way through. I have a picture on my desk of the Acadia taken in August last in the straits, and there is ice all around it. Conditions last year were worse than usual.


William Henry Sharpe: How long was Captain Anderson up there last year?


John Douglas Hazen: He appears to have reached Port Nelson on August 19. He left Port Nelson October 19 for Halifax and the remark is entered in the report that Port Nelson harbour was full of ice. I find that the Bellaventure arrived there August 10 and departed August 22, for Halifax. The Sinbad arrived September 4 with coal and left October 1 for Sydney, but returned again on October 8, as the passage was blocked by ice. The Alette arrived on September 13 with scow and lumber. She departed from Port Nelson October 7, but returned again October 14 in a sinking condition, having been 'damaged by ice off Mansel island. The ship was beached and the crew returned in the Government steamer Acadia.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Was there much field ice there in August?


John Douglas Hazen: 
John Douglas Hazen: In the season of 1913.


John Howard Sinclair: They appear to have encountered ice every month.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.
Mr. -SINCLAIR: What happened to the dredge that was wrecked in Hudson bay, about which we heard something at the last session of the House?


John Douglas Hazen: I always understood that it was not wrecked. The Minister of Railways can give you more accurate information than I can.


Charles Marcil: I suppose very little business is done at Port Nelson at present?


John Douglas Hazen: Fur trading may be carried on to some extent but, I should think, nothing else.


William Henry Sharpe: I must say that I am very much disappointed at the report which the minister has just read. I have taken a very great interest in the Hudson bay route; I have read almost everything in connection with it that I could get my hands on; but this is certainly the most discouraging report that I have seen or heard. I have talked with men who have been there; I have read reports made by men who have been in that country for twenty-fiye or thirty years, a great many
of whom assert that Hudson bay and the Hudson strait are open to navigation for eight to ten months in each year. I believe that their reports are absolutely correct. Captain Anderson has not given us a fair deal in the report which he has made in regard to the Hudson bay route.


Frank Oliver: So far as the navigation of Hudson strait is concerned, that is a matter that wo have to leave to Providence; we cannot change it, and the best we can do is to take it as it is and make the best we can of it. As to whether navigation is open for one month, two months, three months or six months, that is not the point. The point is that the trade of a vast country has been carried through those straits for a period of 200 years and can be carried through them for 200 years longer, if facilities corresponding to the requirements of advanced civilization are provided. What can be controlled are the facilities for reaching the bay and the harbour facilities at the bay, and it is in regard to that matter that we ask the minister for information. How far from the shore line does the general depth of the water become sufficient for floating large vessels?


John Douglas Hazen: I think the deep water is some distance out; I do not know how many miles.


Frank Oliver: My information is that it is a very considerable distance out.


John Douglas Hazen: It is all on the chart.


Frank Oliver: I am quite aware of that, but the point I want to make is this. The information on which I have based my opinion is that the difficulties in the way of making a harbour at Port Nelson are very great, while there is at Fort Churchill a natural harbour, requiring practically no expenditure in order to give facilities for loading and unloading vessels of the greatest draught. I have not in any way found fault with the Government for making the choice of Port Nelson as against Fort Churchill, but I want to get plainly before the committee and the country the fact that in doing so they gratuitously laid upon the enterprise of the Hudson Bay railway a vast and unnecessary burden. Having done this, I think it is their business to take such measures and to make such expenditures as will make Port Nelson a suitable port for carrying on the traffic of Hudson bay. I have been anxious to know what the plans of the Government are in regard to that

port; how long it will take to complete these plans and what the expenditure upon them will be. I am quite aware that these questions are not to be addressed to my hon. friend, but as he has already said that the information acquired by his department is the information upon which the Public Works Department and the Department of Railways must base their plans, I would, have thought that it would be within his knowledge as to whether the Government of which he is a member have made such plans, and, if they are adequate, how long they will take to complete and what their cost will be; or if the fact is that we are committed to the establishment and creation of a port at Port Nelson without any such plans having been formulated or without any such estimate of expenditure having been made, or any period of time having been decided upon for the completion of this work. I am as strongly in favour of the Hudson bay road as the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. W. H. Sharpe) or anybody else. I believe that the welfare of the West is intimately dependent upon the successful completion of the railway and port and the successful operation of the road. My fear is that unless this question of the port is taken hold of and handled energetically and the work completed adequately and in good time, the whole project will be unduly discredited, not because of the natural features but because of lack of due consideration in dealing with this port question, a question which need not have arisen if the railway had been carried to Fort Churchill. Now that it has been decided to carry the railroad to Port Nelson the responsibility is on the Government, and I am desirous of impressing strongly on them the measure of that responsibility, because upon what they do at Port Nelson, the time in which they do it, and the cost of doing it, depends in large measure the success or failure of the Hudson Bay Railway project.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: How far from the mouth of the Nelson river is it necessary to go out in the bay in order to get say 30 feet of water.


John Douglas Hazen: I could not say without having the chart here. Right in the harbour of Port Nelson I believe there is 30 feet of water.


James Joseph Hughes: The reports from men
who have been there are that you have to go a considerable distance,


John Douglas Hazen: Ships of considerable size go in now.


James Joseph Hughes: The Minto could not do that.


John Douglas Hazen: The Minto did so.


James Joseph Hughes: Is that really on record?


William Pugsley: I remember talking
about the matter with the late Minister of Railways who sent Mr. Armstrong, an engineer, to go over the country very carefully to examine the harbours in connection with the railway, and I understood that he had reported that there was an outlet to Port Nelson, although it was a somewhat tortuous channel. It is one not ordinarily known to navigators of ships who prefer to lie outside and send the small boats ashore.


John Douglas Hazen: 
William Pugsley: No doubt there is a
report in the Department from Mr. Armstrong giving full information on the subject.
Radiotelegraph service-to provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations, $350,000.
Mr. OLiVER: I have heard the minister say he proposed to establish a wireless station on Hudson bay. Owing to the fact that the flow of ice varies from year to year and from time to time within the one season, I would think there should be more than one station. [DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: I agree that there should
be more than one and v/e have a scheme worked out in the department which provides ultimately for three. We hope to work up to that and within the next three years to establish three stations there.
Tidal stations and surveying steamers, $35,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Are those new stations?


John Douglas Hazen: These are small observation stations. They are changed about from year to year. This year many of them will be in British Columbia. This service includes the preparation of tide-tables, etc.
Patrol of the northern waters of Canada, $50,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the latest information the Government has in regard to the Stefansson expedition and what are their intentions in regard to it?


John Douglas Hazen: The Karluk sank on
January 11. Those who were on board of her before she sank were Mr. Stefansson, Mr. Jenness, anthropologist, Mr. McConnell, meteorologist, Mr. Wilkins, photographer, and some of the crew. The scientific party and crew then camped on the ice.


Charles Marcil: Crushed in by the ice?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. On January 21, 1914, an advance party composed of Alex. Anderson, Charles Barker, John Brady and A. King started from the camp to effect a landing on Herald island. Nothing has since been heard from this party. On February 5, 1914, a .second party composed of Messrs. McKay, Murray, Beauchet and Morris left camp. Nothing has since been heard of them. A third party left on March 12, 1914, and landed on Wrangel island. The third party, which reached Wrangel island on the 12th March, was composed of O. Malloch, geologist; S. Mamen, assistant geologist; W. McKinley, magneticdan; R. U. Bartlett, captain; John Munro, first engineer; Robert Williamson, second engineer; F. M. Mauxier, fireman; L. W. Breddy, fireman; H. Williams, A.B.; R. Templeman, steward; E. F. Chafe, cabin hoy; and John Hadley, utility man. This party was under the command of Captain Bartlett, who is well known as a very skilful and experienced navigator in northern regions. All these men, with the exception of Messrs. Mamen and Malloch, who died from nephritis, and Breddy, who was accidentally -shot, were rescued by the King and Wing on September 7, 1914, and by the cordial assistance of the United States Government were landed safely at Victoria by the United States revenue cutter Bear. These men left Wrangel island and got over to the coast of Alaska. Captain Bartlett made his way down the coast and got word to us. We immediately got into communication with the United States Government, with the result that the revenue cutter Bear was sent out to bring the men down to Victoria.
Special attention is called by the officer of the department to the heroic behaviour of Captain Bartlett, not only for the manner in which he disciplined those under his command under most trying circumstances, *but also for his bravery in journeying over 160 miles of Arctic ice to rescue those who were stranded on "Wrangel island. Mr. Stefansson joined the southern party at Collinson point on March 8, as after leaving the Karluk he first made a trip to Herschel island to dispatch mail, and thence to the Mackenzie Delta
and Fort MacPherson for the purpose of scientific exploration. The scientific investigations of the southern party carried on during the winter of 1913-14 were most successful. Many new specimens have been obtained and forwarded to Ottawa for further investigation. I may say that since that time nothing has been heard of Stefansson. On March 22, 1914, accompanied by Messrs. Johnston, marine biologist; Mr. McConnell, secretary; Wilkins, official photographer; Bernard, Castleton, Crawford, Starkerson and Anderson, Stefansson started on a trip across the ice for the purpose of taking scientific observations, and of attempting to discover a new land or polar continental shelf. Of these men, Messrs. Wilkins, Bernard and Castleton, returned to camp. Later on Messrs. Johnston, McConnell and Crawford returned and reported that on March 23 the ice broke off and drifted eastward eighty miles in one night. They left Starkerson and Anderson with Mr. Stefansson. That was the last heard of Stefansson. There is a possibility that Stefansson may have got across to Siberia and may be heard from some day. The different parties out there, in fact, everybody going to the north, are keeping their eyes open and doing everything they can to find him. I had a long talk with Captain Bartlett, who came to Ottawa some months ago. He is a most experienced navigator in northern waters, and belongs to a family of experienced navigators. They are Newfoundland people. I think he was with Peary at the time he discovered the Pole. Bartlett thinks there is a possibility of Stefansson being found, if he has not already perished. He says Stefansson was a most experienced and resourceful man who would get along if anybody could. There is a possibility, but I am afraid it is only a possibility and not a probability, that Stefansson may be found.


Charles Marcil: Is the distance to Siberia very great?


John Douglas Hazen: It is about 1,100 miles from the point where Stefansson was last seen.


Charles Marcil: The minister has mentioned several interesting specimens. What do they consist off?


John Douglas Hazen: They have been sent here, but I understand have not been classified by the officers of the Geological Department. When they have been classified they will be put in the museum.


Frank Oliver: What part did this Government take in securing the rescue of the party which reached Wrangel island, and were afterwards rescued by the King & Wing ?	*


John Douglas Hazen: We knew nothing about it until we heard from Captain Bartlett. As soon as he sent word to us we got into touch with all the vessels that we learned were up in the North and with the United States Government and the Russian Government, which have vessels up in that neighbourhood. They at once went to their relief. The department has paid some bills that were incurred by one of these ships in bringing the party across to the mainland. We took immediate and prompt action as soon as we heard from Captain Bartlett and, as I said, communicated with the Russian and United States Governments. The United States Government rendered us very valuable aid with their revenue cutter Bear, which was up there.


Frank Oliver: Was the United States
Government paid for their services?


John Douglas Hazen: They would not accept anything.


Frank Oliver: Was the Norwegian boat paid that actually made the rescue?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, they were paid. That was the King & Wing.


Frank Oliver: Were they paid in a manner creditable to the Government?


John Douglas Hazen: It was certainly satisfactory to them, and I think it was a proper sum that we paid.


Frank Oliver: Has the Government in
mind any active steps to be taken in regard to Stefansson and the men who are with him ?


John Douglas Hazen: We have three ships up
there now searching for them: the North Star, the Alaska, and the Mary Sachs. We are doing everything that we think can be done, but as the hon. gentleman knows it is not an easy situation. These three ships have instructions to search and do all they can to find them.


Frank Oliver: These three ships are still up there?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Frank Oliver: The reason I press this
point is that I have seen an article in Harper's magazine, which I can only construe

as reflecting seriously upon this Government, for not taking more active measures looking to the relief of Stefansson and of those parties who have not been heard from since they left the Karluk.
I do not wish to unduly criticise, hut I must say that, taking the facts that have been presented to us from time to time by the minister, reading the accounts I have seen in the newspapers and reading this article by a friend of Stefansson-


John Douglas Hazen: Is that McConnell?


Frank Oliver: I think so-I am bound to say that the facts do not reflect any credit upon Canada or upon the Government. This expedition was sent out on the responsibility of the Government of Canada, and it is presumed that, it was intended to serve a useful purpose. The leader of the expedition has some reputation in that line. It has been usual under such circumstances by the Governments of other countries to take more notice of the misfortunes that have happened to their explorers than has been taken in this case. It may be that the Government is misjudged. I am not concerned so much about that, but the reflections that have appeared are reflections upon Canada as a whole. If the minister has any information that he can give to this House as to greater activity, on the part of the Government in seeking to relieve the situation of these explorers, he would certainly be very well advised to place it before khe House. Not to speak too strongly, it seems to me that there has been a very cold-blooded view taken of the case, and I think it would be entirely creditable to the country, as well as to the Government, if some more active measures than have been taken in the past were taken on the direct responsibility of the Government looking to the relief of these people.


John Douglas Hazen: This matter has been very carefully considered, and everything has been done up to the present time that can be done. It was considered by officials of the department and by many scientific men, knowing to a considerable extent the conditions that prevail there, and they think that everything has been done that can be dpne. I know there was something in an American paper, and I know a gentleman came here who wanted us to undertake an expedition by means of aeroplanes that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The proposition was carefully considered by the department, and the department believed there was nothing practical

about it, and that no good could result from it, and they declined it. It was after this that we saw these criticisms to which the hon. gentleman has referred. The officials thought that an expedition to go out with aeroplanes to search in the Arctic for Stefansson was absolutely impracticable, and was not one that would give any good results. That is the only proposition that has been made. We considered everything we could do. We are just as anxious as my hon. friend or anybody else to do everything we can for these unfortunate men. Even if Stefansson is lost, which I am afraid is the case, we would like to make a search to definitely ascertain that fact. We have three vessels up there, there are other vessels which know everything about it and I am satisfied that everything is being done that could be done in connection with the matter. It was considered with the greatest possible care, and the seriousness of the situation appeared to everybody. It was considered not only by the deputy minister but by other officials in connection with the department, and the conclusion they came to was that everything that possibly could be done of a practical character has been done in connection with the matter.
Rewards for saving- life, including lifesaving stations, $125,400.


John Douglas Hazen: This is a transfer. The lifesaving stations have been placed under the control of the Naval Service Department. This vote used to appear in the Marine Estimates. It is really no addition to the Estimates.


William Pugsley: The amount is the same?


John Douglas Hazen: Exactly the same.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there any increase in the number of stations?


John Douglas Hazen: Under this vote $17,200 is spent in British Columbia and $25,500 in Ontario, $10,000 in New Brunswick, $26,600 in Nova Scotia, $2,600 in Prince Edward Island, and, on general account, $6,500. That is for maintenance. A new building is being erected at Point Pelee, Ontario, costing $10,500. There is a general vote for new -boats, and repairs to buildings of $30,000, making the total $125,400. The stations in Nova Scotia are Bakers Cove, Blanche, Clark Harbour, Canso, Devil Island, Port Mouton, Scattari, Seal Island, St. Paul Island, Whitehead, Sable Island, Cheticamp, and Bay View. Some are permanent and some volunteer stations. The 103
stations, in New Brunswick are at Little Wood Island, Richibucto, Port Escuminac and Cape Tormentine.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the difference between a volunteer and a permanent station ?


John Douglas Hazen: A permanent station i3 where the men are there permanently, ready at a moment's notice to go out to sea.


John Howard Sinclair: They are paid every day in the year?


John Douglas Hazen: Paid for the season during which they are there. A volunteer station is a station where men living in the neighbourhood pursue their ordinary avocations and when a wreck occurs they go and man the lifeboats. They are not paid so much a day, but for the number of drills they do during the season.


Alexander William Chisholm: Have any new buildings been erected at Cheticamp during the last season?	"


John Douglas Hazen: There is one being built now.


Alexander William Chisholm: Was it put up to tender?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand it is a very small building, costing with the land $425.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who built it?


John Douglas Hazen: William AuCoin.


Alexander William Chisholm: Is the hon. gentleman sure of that?


John Douglas Hazen: It is an AuCoin anyway.


Alexander William Chisholm: I suppose there are five hundred of them down there. I may tell the hon. gentleman it was Alexander AuCoin. What system did the minister follow in giving an expenditure of $450 to one individual without tender and con-contract.


John Douglas Hazen: It was an arrangement that was made, I understand, by Admiral Kingsmill, who Went down there >and decided upon the ground. That probably was the cheapest way of doing it. The land was secured from the man who put up the building. As I understand it, he gave the land and put up the building for $425. I think Admiral Kingsmill came to the conclusion that that was the cheapest way out of the matter, because if he had not given the man the job of putting up the building, the land would have cost a great deal more. Putting the two together, Ad-



miral Kingsmill thought he was making a good bargain. The matter never came to my attention before to-night. I have just picked up the information about it here.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is the size of the building P


John Douglas Hazen: It is a double-boarded house with a stone foundation, and is large enough to serve as a living place for a crew of eight or ten men. I cannot tell the size.


Alexander William Chisholm: Was any protest made against giving this work to Mr. AuCoin ?


John Douglas Hazen: I certainly never had it called to my attention, and my officials here say that they never heard of it.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have taken particular interest in this station. In fact, I give myself credit for having initiated the idea of having it put there. The late Government made provision for the erection of a istation. I recognized that there was a great necessity for a life-saving station in that particular part of the county, inasmuch as the people are exclusively fishermen, ana rne coast is very rough. At the time the engineer went down there first to select a site for the station, I recommended to him a man by the name of Mr. Doucett for coxswain, or captain of the boat, as they name it 'down there. The change of Government came afterwards, and the friends of my hon. friend the minister made the .recommendation that this man be dismissed and another man be appointed in his stead, a gentleman by the name of Mr. Maillet. Mr. Maillet, I must say, was a very suitable man.


Charles Marcil: Was he a Tory ?


Alexander William Chisholm: Yes. I have nothing at all to say against him. Shortly afterwards trouble arose between Mr. Maillet and one of the crew, Mr. Cormier. Mr. Cormier was dismissed by one of the officers of the department, I think Commander Thompson. An investigation was asked for, and Mr. Nickerson, who is also an officer of the department, was sent down to investigate thi matter. He made certain recommendations. At the investigation, however, counter charges were made hy Cormier against Maillet, who was captain. Mr. Nickerson investigated the charges and the counter charges. His report I find in t1 return I have here. He exonerates both parties from any very serious guilt. He says:

In my opinion, the complaint against Cormier as contained in the coxswain's letter to you is by no means sustained in all its gravity, while the counter charge is a trifling matter indeed, a sort of trumpery accusation quite easily accounted for.
That is the opinion of Mr. Nickerson with regard to Mr. Maillet. I moved for this return 'some time ago, and looking over it from cover to cover, I find that there is nothing against Mr. Maillet. I propose, however, following the various pages here. The next thing I^find is that Mr. Cormier was reinstated, and that my opponent, Mr. Gallant a thorough gentleman, I must say, but of course a very strong Tory, recommended the dismissal of Mr. Maillet forthwith. The minister in reply to him stated that, in his judgment, the was no justification for the dismissal of Mr. Mail-let. The hon. minister said what was Tight, that one of his officers, who went down there and investigated the case, stated that there was nothing to justify his dismissal such a short time after his appointment. In that the minister was thoroughly correct. He had the interest of the station at' heart then; and had he continued to occupy that position with respect to this case, it would have been better for the station and for all concerned. Another officer, however, was sent down, namely, Admiral Kingsmill. He also made a report. I am going to put his report upon Hansard. He addressed the report to the department:
With reference to your memorandum of 31st August, I beg to report that I visited this station on the 15th of October and found that Mr. Gallant, who makes the charges against the coxswain was not there, but I interviewed several people and found that there is a feeling that the coxswain is not loyal to the Government who gave him his appointment.
I would hardly think that a man in the position that Admiral Kingsmill occupies would be sent down there to determine the politics of this man. He would be' sent down for technical purposes, to find out whether the station was satisfactory, and so forth. The report continues:
I would submit that there is no reason for retaining him in the appointment; he is not able to manage his boat's crew, and the station is most untidy and ill-kept. When the station is closed down at the close of navigation, I would suggest that some one be nominated to take charge, make an inventory and lock the boathouse up until the re-opening of navigation, when the new coxswain and crew should be appointed. None of the crew made any complaint to me against the coxswain, and he himself spoke such indifferent English that I could

not gather from him any reason for the trouble which had taken place.
Mr. Maillet is a Frenchman and speaks French very well. I do not know whether Admiral Kingsmill .speaks French or not.


John Douglas Hazen: What is the hon. gentleman reading from?


Alexander William Chisholm: From sessional papers, No. 159, page 41. I want to point out particularly with respect to Admiral Kingsmill's report that, in my judgment, he would have done much better had he got some further information than he seems to have secured down there. He says he met several of the people there; but what strikes me very forcibly is that, notwithstanding the fact that there is previous to this report a statement by the crew of the life-saving station setting forth the charges against this man Maillet, at the time when one of the officers of the department went down to investigate the case, those men had no complaint to make. I would think that if they had made a complaint-and I doubt it very much- against Mr. Maillet, when the officers of the department went down there, they should have been able to substantiate the charges. I find from the report of Admiral Kingsmill that they made no charges at all in his presence.
I find a report here from the Deputy Minister of Naval Affairs covering a communication which is addressed to Mr. Gallant. It points out again that the officers of the life-saving station, when called upon to give evidence, had no evidence to give.
I infer from the correspondence that the dismissal is the result of nothing more or less than a desire on the part of Mr. Gallant to dismiss the man whom he himself had appointed only a few months before. As to the politics of Mr. Maillet I know nothing. I had assumed that he was a strong Conservative and a supporter of Mr. Gallant. Evidently Mr. Gallant had suspicions, and the investigation of Admiral Kingsmill was to determine what the politics of this man were and not what his efficiency was.
I find a report by Admiral Kingsmill in which he says that he interviewed a certain gentleman down there, who, he says is the leading man in the community, and this gentleman told him that so far as he knew Mr. Maillet was as good a man as they were likely to get, but the opinion in this ease was that he was not loyal to the Government from whom he received his appointment. Here is another reference to this
man's politics. My only reason for bringing this before the committee is that I fear the virus of politics has been injected into this institution. I fear that there is very little prospect that this life-saving station can give the service which I hoped it would give. It is true, there was a little disturbance between these two men. But I can assure the minister that if he were down in Cheticamp, he would find an equally great disturbance between two other men; and I suppose the next thing will be the dismissal of more men because of this little difference that could have been settled simply by not listening to either party but insisting that each should do his duty in his position. I hope the minister will not give heed too readily to these representations made by men who are actuated, in my judgment, by no other desire than to give way to their political feelings. This is evident from the first page of the report to the last. I have taken up the time of the committee believing that the service may be benefited by the minister being placed in possession of the facts.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not wish to take up time unnecessarily; but my hon friend from Inverness (Mr. A. W. Chisholm) seems to think that this man was dismissed because of his politics. That question did not enter into it at all. This man was recommended for this position by Mr. Gallant, who was the Conservative candidate for Inverness in 1911, and appointed to the position largely on his recommendation. So far as I know the man was a Conservative, and there was no charge against him that he had interfered in politics. There was trouble at the station; discipline did not seem to be enforced by Mr. Maillet; and he made a charge against Mr. Cormier, one of his crew, and Mr. Cormier retaliated by making charges against him. Mr. Nickerson, an official of the Fisheries Department in Nova Scotia, was asked to make a report. He visited the place, and reported that in his opinion the complaint against Mr. Cormier contained in the coxswain's letter to Commander Thompson was by no means sustained in all its gravity, while the counter-charge was " a trifling matter indeed-a sort of trumpery accusation quite easily accounted for"-meaning, I suppose, that the coxswain had made a charge that was not sustained against this man, and the man retaliated by making charges against the coxswain. Mr. Nickerson proceeds to praise both men:
16J6

Maillet is no doubt a capable boatman. Cormier, I believe, is a trustworthy watchman. A slight personal pique was the beginning of the trouble which has been wretchedly augmented by outside interference into which it was not judicious for me to inquire, but which
was obvious enough______Much has been doneto place this Cheticamp station on a high plane of usefulness. The location is correct, the outposts are properly chosen, the equipment is good and the men well qualified. Order and discipline can be introduced and maintained here if the crew are more fully instructed as to the nature of their duties in every part ot the service. They are as yet new to the work.
Still, discipline did not prevail at this station; the coxswain did not enforce the authority he had, and constant bickering and trouble existed between himself and the crew. Representations were made about the matter, and I instructed Admiral Kingsmill, whose duty it is, to look into the matter and report what should be done. Admiral Kingsmill, I am sure, did not have any thought of politics. Being a civil servant, I suppose he has no politics, but if he had any, I presume they would lead him to sympathize with hon. gentlemen opposite. He went to this station and investigated, and he reports:
With reference to your memo, of 31st of August; I beg to report that I visited this station on the 15th October and found that Mr. Gallant, who makes the charges against the coxswain, was not there, but I interviewed several people and found that there is a feeling that the coxswain is not loyal to the Government who gave him his appointment.
I take that to mean, not that he was not loyal to the Administration, but that he was not loyal to the Government of the country, and was not doing his duty in his position. Admiral Kingsmill had no instructions to inquire into the man s politics; there is no charge of political interference connected with the matter. He says:
1 would submit that there is no reason for retaining him in the appointment; he is not able to manage his boat's crew and the station is most untidy and ill-kept.
That is the report which induced me to take the action I did. That the coxswain was not able to manage his boat's crew is clear from the trouble that arose, each making charges against the other. Admiral Kingsmill further says:
When the station is closed down at the close of navigation, I would suggest some one be appointed to take charge of it, make an inventory and lock the boathouse up till the reopening of navigation, when the new coxswain and crew should be appointed. None of the crew made any complaint to me against the coxswain, and he himself spoke such indifferent

English that I could not gather from him any reason for the trouble which had taken place.
Perhaps that was one trouble, that he could not make his views and wishes well known to his crew. Or were they all people who understood French?


Alexander William Chisholm: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the report on which this man was relieved of his position. There was no politics in it so far as the department was concerned, and no charge made of political interference. This man was appointed largely on the recommendation of the man who was the Conservative candidate for Inverness.
Admiral Kingsmill is presumed to know his business; he is a trained and experienced officer. Doss my hon. friend think that it would be good business to keep in office as coxswain a man who cannot, enforce discipline with his crew and who allows his station to be ill-kept and dirty, as reported by Admiral Kingsmill? So far as I was concerned the question of the man's politics never entered into the matter.


Alexander William Chisholm: The moment Mr. Maillet tried to enforce the regulations sent to him by my hon. friend's department, he incurred the enmity of the crew. The charges that were being made by the crew of the station were not laid before Admiral Kingsmill when he went down there, because the Admiral says that the crew had no charges to make. The same may be said in respect of Mr. Nicholson's visit. The crew of the station did not make their charges against the captain while the officers were there, showing conclusively that the whole thing was manufactured by politicians. My hon. friend's interpretation of Admiral Kingsmill's reference to politics does not correspond with mine. So long as the department refuses to help the captain of the life-saving station to carry out the regulations, so long will the station fail to produce	the results I had
hoped that it would produce. This man Maillet made an honest effort to carry out the instructions sent to him by the department, and thereby made himself un popular with the crew. The crew and their friends sent representations here which were false, and which they dared , not make when my hon, friend's representatives were down there. The matter is in the minister's hands.

Mr. A. A. McLEAN; I shoulcl like to bring to the attention of the minister a report which was current in the Maritime Provinces last year. A very severe storm occurred in Northumberland strait, and the report reached Charlottetown that a vessel was in distress between cape Tormentine and cape Traverse. The marine agent at Charlottetown sent the lifeboat to relieve the distressed vessel. The lifeboat could not get there unaided, and was towed by a tug. On the way out in the height of the storm, the crew went on board the tug, and shortly afterwards the lifeboat upset. If the crew had been on board the lifeboat, they would have been drowned. What I want to bring to the attention of the minister is the fact that it is currently stated that the boats which are supplied are not suitable for the purposes of life-saving stations. There is no use in maintaining life-saving stations at great expense if the boats supplied are not of the proper type.


John Douglas Hazen: The boat belonged to what live-saving station?


Mr. McLEAN:: Charlottetown. I took
occasion to ask some of the men who were on board the boat about this matter, and they told me-they are men who have been at sea for many years, and know something about these things-that in their opinion the boat was not of the proper type. I think that the department should take this matter up, because the material supplied to men who are engaged in saving life should be of the very highest quality in order that they may be able to render all possible assistance to vessels which may be in distress, without at the same time endangering their own lives. This is, perhaps, more important than any of the other matters that have been brought to the attention of the committee. I am not myself expressing any opinion as to the facts, because I am not' posted on the subject, but it is currently reported that the boats are not of the proper type and are not as good as those used in England or on the continent of Europe. If that is the case, I think the Government ought to take the matter up and see that it is adjusted.


John Douglas Hazen: I entirely agree with my hon. friend that if you are going to have lifeboats you want to have boats that will do the work which they are intended to do. I will certainly make inquiry into the case of the lifeboat of the Charlottetown station, and if it is not suitable for the purposes for
which it is intended, I will take steps to have it replaced by a suitable boat.


Alexander William Chisholm: The complaint is made in this report that the lifeboat is not adequate enough; I call the minister's attention to that fact.


James Joseph Hughes: A lifeboat should be self-baling and self-righting.


John Douglas Hazen: It ought to be self-righting. Is this boat an old boat?


Angus Alexander McLean: It is an old boat. I understand that the boat at Cape Tormentine is of the same type, and is of very little use.


James Joseph Hughes: I have some complaint to make about the boat at the Souris station.


John Douglas Hazen: Is that an old boat?


James Joseph Hughes: It has been in use seven or eight years, I think. It is said that this boat does not possess the essential requirements of a proper life-saving boat. Has the minister given us all the information he has as to the quality of these boats?


John Douglas Hazen: I fancy that some of the boats which are being built to-day for lifesaving purposes are better than those which have been in use at the life-saving stations for a great many years. We are trying, little by little, to substitute better boats for those now in use. I have heard no complaint about the Cape Tormentine boat.


James Joseph Hughes: My information is that there is a better type of boat in use in the United States. Why was the life-saving station at Souris removed from where it was to where it now is?
This station was established in 1908 and the boathouse built upon some land supposed to belong to Mr. J. J. Hughes, M.P., for which a nominal rental of $1 was to be paid by the department.
In 1911 it became necessary to enlarge the boathouse, and for this more land was required. When the matter was taken up it was discovered that the boathouse was not on Mr. Hughes' land at all, but partly on land belonging to the estate of the late John McPhee and partly on land owned by Mr. John McLean. Mr. Hughes then offered a new lease of right of way at and through his lane with a proviso allowing him to terminate said lease on six months' notice. It was impossible to accept this offer as, if the right of way was withdrawn there would be no way of getting the boat and wagon to the railway.
Mr. Lord, superintendent of life-saving station, after looking into the whole matter, recommended the purchase of a site from Mr. J. A. Remick, to which the boathouse could be movej

before the addition was built, and the matter would then be settled denitely. After approaching Mr. Remlclc, Mr. Lord was advised by Messrs, Fraser and McQuaid, attorneys, that the property in question was owned by the estate of John McPhee and could only be sold or leased after authority had been obtained from the Court of Chancery.
On this being reported to the department the chief engineer advised having the land expropriated, which was accordingly done. The cost of the land was $76, being 76 feet at $1 per foot frontage and the building was moved on to it at a cost of $70. After moving the building was reported to be in good shape. On the 17th of February 1914, however, the boathouse was damaged by an exceedingly heavy easterly gale which occurred on that day. It was then decided that the building had been placed too far forward when moved and it was accordingly moved back a little further where it now it.
My ihon. friend asked me about this and asked me to have the information when the Naval Estimates came up.


James Joseph Hughes: The boathouse was really on land belonging to the Crown.


John Douglas Hazen: That does not appear to have been the opinion.


James Joseph Hughes: At all events it was on land that belonged to the McPhee estate, nobody claimed it, nobody asked any price for it or asked rent.


John Douglas Hazen: Does my hon. friend know the firm of Murray and McQuaid ?


James Joseph Hughes: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: They advised that the land belonged to the McPhee estate. The land where it was belonged to two people, McPhee and John McLean.


James Joseph Hughes: I do not think the report is correct. It really was very difficult to move the building.


John Douglas Hazen: It only cost $70.


James Joseph Hughes: The building had to be moved across a wharf, and it was injured in the moving, and it is not now in as good a site as before; it is not as well sheltered or so near to deep water.


John Douglas Hazen: The Teport from Mr. Lord, superintendent of life saving stations for Prince Edward Island, is as follows:
With reference to the question: " is the new situation preferable to the old one?" I beg to state that the present site is infinitely better than the former one on account of the protection given by whiarf property owned by Messrs. Matthew and McClean and the railway wharf property.


James Joseph Hughes: Mr. Lord was the man who selected the first site, and 'he thought it was the best ;in the harbour.


John Douglas Hazen: He must have changed his mind.


Charles Marcil: I asked during the last regular session how it was that Quebec, one of the important maritime provinces of Canada, was without a life-saving 'Station, and the minister said he would look into the matter.


John Douglas Hazen: I have here a memorandum prepared by Admiral Kingsmill, in consequence of my hon. friend's request:
Memorandum for the Deputy Minister.
Regarding your request for a note giving reasons why there are no life saving stations on the river St. Lawrence: On the upper part of the St. Lawrence there is no necessity for any station, as vessels getting into difficulties are not likely to be completely wrecked so as to endanger the crew.
The lower part of the St. Lawrence is populated nearly all along its entire banks for a long way down, by farmers, etc., and If a small vessel is wrecked, until you get Into the gulf there are seldom heavy enough seas to break up a vessel before the persons on board could get ashore. I believe, several years ago it was proposed to erect a station in Chaleur bay but I can find no record of anything having been done.
As to establishing stations now on the lower part of the St. Lawrence and the gulf, I see less reason for it than in the past. At present, in the fishing communities there are so many large and well equipped motor boats that there would be no difficulty in getting men to go to a wreck if necessary, while the difficulty of proper supervision of a station districts is so great in these outlying districts. I could not recommend the establishment of them. .
There is no doubt a considerable feeling about, that had there been a life saving station in the vicinity more lives would have been saved when the Empress of Ireland sank off Father Point. A collision in open water is no reason for establishing life saving stations. Had there been a station near at hand it would have meant one more boat to assist in rescue work. The chances of collisions taking place in the vicinity of life saving stations are remote, it is impossible to provide against such accidents. That is Admiral Kingsmiill's opinion.


Charles Marcil: I hope he is right, but I regret to say he makes no reference to two very dangerous points on the lower St. Lawrence, Anticosti island and Magdalen islands.


John Douglas Hazen: I have here a list of the life-saving stations in Quebec. There is one on Entry island. That is in the Magdalen islands. There is none on Anticosti island.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there any system of reports on the practice of life boat crews ? To have an efficient service, practice and drill must be carried out regularly.


John Douglas Hazen: Reports are isent in regularly to the department and my ihon. friend could see them at any time.


John Howard Sinclair: I referred some time ago to the circumstances .surrounding the death of Joseph Le Blanc, of Point Felix. There is a feeling of unfairness among the relatives of this sailor who think that the truth was not told during the discussion which took place in the House last session in regard to this matter. I wish the minister to bear with me until I point out to him that there were some unintentional errors made in the statement which he gave last session. This sailor was in the employ of the (Government and on board the steamship Canada. He fell ill and was put in the hospital in Montreal. He died there on the 22nd of August, 1913, pnd on that date a telegram was sent to his nearest relative, Mrs. Margaret Richard, of Point Felix, announcing his death. The dispute was as to the date of the answer. On the 22nd August, 1913, the telegram was sent to Mrs. Benjamin Richard telling her that her brother Joseph had died in hospital at Montreal. It was stated by the minister in the discussion that took place that Mrs. Richard did not reply to this telegram until the 27th of August, and that it became necessary in the intervening period to bury her brother in Montreal, instead of sending the body to Port Felix as the relatives desired. I pointed out to the minister that Mrs. Richard informed me that she replied to the minister on the following morning, the 23rd August. The minister stated positively that he was instructed by his officers that such was not the case, and that Mrs. Richard's telegram was sent to the ship on the 27th of August, not the 23rd. During the summer and autumn I took the trouble to investigate this matter, and I got copies of the telegrams. I find that some officer in the department of my hon. friend must have misled him as to the dates. The first telegram [DOT] received by Mrs. Richard is the following:
Halifax, N.S., August 22, 1913. To Mrs. Benjamin Richard,
West Port Felix, N.S.
Joseph LeBlane died Montreal General Hospital. If you want body buried Port Felix you will have to pay expenses. Otherwise Government will bury him Montreal. Reply Canada, Halifax.
(Sgd.) Jim Bond.
Jim Bond was a sailor on board the Canada, and apparently the captain of the Canada asked him to send the message to
Mrs. Richard. The minister told us last year that the captain authorized Bond to send a message, and that it was sent in Bond's name. But this telegram stating that the Government would require the relatives of Joseph LeBlane to pay the funeral expenses did not appear on the file last year, although we thought we had a complete file of the telegrams. Now this is Mrs. Richard's answer:
White Head, August 23, 1913.
To Captain Stewart,
D.G.S. Canada, Halifax.
If Government will forward Joseph LeBlanc's body to Mulgrave free of charge we will meet it there. Otherwise please have buried Montreal. Advise answer.
Mrs. Benjamin Richard.


John Douglas Hazen: That telegram was received after he was buried?


John Howard Sinclair: you (or the trouble you are taking in this matter, I remain,
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) J. H. Sinclair.


John Douglas Hazen: What is the date of the telegram mentioned in that letter?


John Howard Sinclair: I sent a copy to the manager of the telegraph company, so that he might look the telegram up and see if it was correct.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the day after LeBlanc died?


John Howard Sinclair: Yes, Mrs. Richard got the telegram late on the 22nd, and she answered early on the morning of the 23rd. This is the reply I received from Mr. Laid-law:
Halifax, N.S., August 16, 1914.
J. H. Sinclair, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-Your favour of the 15th inst.,duly received. The Port Felix message you refer to was received here dated Whitehead, N.S., August 23rd at S.36 a.m. and sent to the Dockyard by messenger for delivery.
It appears that the D.G.S. Canada was not in port and we were instructed to forward the message to Shelburne, N.S., which was done on the same date. Our Shelburne office immediately reported the message as undelivered, the Canada not being there. On August 27 Shelburne advised us to disregard her former service as the Canada had arrived at Shelburne and message had been delivered.
It would appear from the above that the Canada was at sea between the 23rd and 27th of August last year and that Shelburne was her first port of call.
If you should desire further information in regard to this message I shall be glad to do what can to assist you.
Yours truly,
G. Laidlaw,
Manager.


John Douglas Hazen: Was that telegram delivered on the 27th to the captain of the Canada?


John Howard Sinclair: I presume it was delivered at Shelburne on the 27th. It was taken to the dockyard by a messenger of the telegraph company about 8.30 on the morning of the 23rd. The point I wish to make is this. Some one in the department of my hon. friend, either in order to conceal the real facts or by mistake, informed the minister that Mrs. Richard's telegram was dated August 27 and not August 23. The minister produced in the House a copy of the telegram, which he stated was a correct copy. It will be found on page 5334 of Hansard of last year, and reads as follows:

August 27, 1913.
The Captain Canada,
Shelburne, Nova Scotia.
If Government will forward J. Leblanc's body Mulgrave free of charge it will be met there, otherwise please have buried Montreal.
Mrs. Richard.
I want to point out to the minister that this telegram must have been partly manufactured by some officer in his department, and I was surprised that any officer should change a telegram just to fit the story that was put up by somebody in regard to this matter. In the first place the telegram produced by the minister last year is addressed to the captain of the Canada at Shelburne, N.S., whereas the actual telegram sent by Mrs. Richard was addressed to the captain of the Canada at Halifax. In the second place the date of the telegram produced by the minister last year is dated August 27, whereas the telegram sent by Mrs. Richard was dated August 23. The minister was very positive about it. He says on the same page of Hansard from which I have already quoted: " she did not send it until the 27th of August." It was further stated that, if Mrs. Richard had replied to Dr. Ower, at Montreal, LeBlanc's body would have been sent on to port Felix. I want to point out that Mrs. Richard did reply to Dr. Ower at Montreal, on the same day that she replied to Captain Stewart. Here is her message to Dr. Ower:
Port Felix, August 23, 1913. Manager, Montreal General Hospital,
Montreal.
Have you instructions from Marine Department to send Joseph LeBlanc's body home or bury there. Reply.
Mrs. Benjamin Richard.
That telegram was not produced with the file of last year. It was said that Mrs. Richard sent no communication whatever to Dr. Ower at Montreal in regard to her brother's body. On August 25 Dr. Ower replies to the telegram sent to him on the 23rd. It was received at Whitehead on August 25th and it is as follows:
To Mrs. Benjamin Richard, Whitehead.
Marine Department has given instructions for body to be buried here.
That telegram was not produced at all. It was either taken from the file or it never was received by the minister. I understand that the Canada has wireless machinery on board and that she could have received the message if the officers at the dockyard at Halifax had wished to communicate with her. Evidently they did not regard this matter as of sufficient importance to forward the message to the captain of the Can-

ada which they might have done. It cannot be said that it was Mrs. Richard's fault that the message did not reach its proper destination because it was the fault of some one in the Marine Department. It looks as if the real reason for it was to be found in the instructions of Captain Stewart, who says:	.
You must pay the expenses ; otherwise Government will bury in Montreal.
That was not stated in the discussion which took place last year.
So much for that phase of the question. Then, the relatives of this deceased sailor thinking that they were badly treated, made application to the minister for some compensation to the orphan child that was adopted by the sailor and left helpless at Port Felix. Some consideration was due to these people. The sailor was an unmarried man and it is rather an unusual thing for a man under these circumstances to adopt a child. But he did adopt a child and when he died the child was without any help or support. The sailor's sister applied to the minister for some small compensation owing to the fact that the sailor had died in the services of the Government of Canada. Here is what the minister said in reply to that request:
My hon. friend (Mr. Sinclair) has referred to the fact that perhaps something should be done in the way of assistance for a child which the hon. member says Leblanc adopted. Leblanc had only been a few months in the service of the Marine and Fisheries Department as a sailor on board the Canada, and our information is that this chold who was living with him was a nephew, and that the father of the child is living and is well able to provide for it.
That statement also turns out to be untrue. The child is not a nephew of Mrs. Richard or of her brother. The minister says that the father is well able to take care of the child but I want to tell my hon. friend that it is not known who the father of the child is. The fact is that the child is an illegitimate child and his father is not known. The story of this child is told by Mrs. Richard herself in the following letter:
East Port Felix, June 22, 1914. My dear Gentlemen:
Just a few lines to tell you that I have received your book and the letter-
That refers to a copy of Hansard.
-but my letter was gone, I think you got it now, and also I have read the question over and over again, and I see all the mistakes they have, say even to tell that the child was a nephew to poor Joe and to us, what a lie as I must say, nothing else but a lie, and another
thing to say that the J. Bond on board of the D.G.S. Canada was a cousin of the deceased, that is another fraud, and even to say the child's father was well able to provide for it, they know more than I do about its father. I know its mother, and that is all I know, and nobody else in this place know who is the child's father's name. I will tell you the whole thing about this boy. The first one that took the boy was our brother Remie Leblanc. You have heard about him before. He was married and they had no family of their own, so they heard about this young girl having an infant that she was wanting to give him away to somebody. She was alone, no one to work for her, and she was crippled, no one to earn her living, so she gave her child to poor Remie before the magistrate and a couple of witnesses, then after a while Remie and his wife both took sick, the wife took sick in May and she died in November, and eight months after Remie died, and this brother of ours, Joe, took the child and looked after him the same as a father to his own child, and they both came and stayed with me, and they had no one, no woman to wash and bake for them, after they stayed with me, Joe was going away to earn for both of them, he was taking everything to the house, and I was taking everything to Sinclair, I am writing to Mr. Hazen, telling him all the matter again. See if he will answer my letter. I know he won't answer it.


John Douglas Hazen: She is mistaken.


John Howard Sinclair: I will write again to Mr. Borden, see what kind of answer I will get. I know he will answer back. This is all.
Vours truly,
(Sgd.) Mrs. Margaret Richard,
East Port Felix, Guysborough Co., N.S.
That is the story of the little boy, and it appears that my hon. friend was misinformed when he stated that his father was living and was well able to take care of him. I do not know whether this will induce the minister to change his mind and to make some compensation to the child or not, but I think it would only be fair to the relatives in Port Felix who have felt very badly over the fact that their brother was buried amongst strangers in Montreal in place of his body being sent home when he died in the service of the Government, but which was not done because of the small expense which it would have necessitated. The department, without much expense, could have had the body transferred from Montreal to Mulgrave. That is all over, the body is buried in Montreal and there is no help for it now, but the child is still living, the people are needy, and if the minister could reconsider his position and make some compensation that would help to clothe and feed the young child for a short time, owing to the fact that he was left helpless after

the death of this sailor, it would be a gracious thing for him to do.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think there is any advantage in discussing this matter very much further, but the facts as they are disclosed by the records in our department are these: Le Blanc was a sailor on board the Canada, he had been on board for about two months, the boat was in Montreal, he was taken ill and he died of natural causes and not in consequence of any injury he had received while in the service of the Government of Canada. He died in the Hospital in Montreal, after receiving all proper medical attention, he was a Roman Catholic in religion and he was buried according to the rites of the Roman Catholic church, in the cemetery at Montreal.


John Howard Sinclair: What was the nature
of his illness?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think I have the statement, but it was from natural causes.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand it was
from pneumonia.


John Douglas Hazen: It was never claimed that he had contracted the disease on the boat. Immediately after his death, according to the files, his sister, Mrs. Margaret Richard, of Port Felix, was communicated with to ascertain the desire of his relatives in regard to the disposition of his remains. No reply was received from Mrs. Richard, and after two days the body was buried. It appears from what my hon. friend says that on the 22nd instant his sister endeavoured to communicate with the captain of the Canada-


John Howard Sinclair: On the 23rd.


John Douglas Hazen: -on the 23rd, the day after his death, that this telegram went to the dockyard, that they said that the Canada was not in Halifax but in Shelburne, that they communicated with Shelburne and found that the Canada was not there but that she was at sea and that this message was not delivered until the 27th. The message, that we believe is the message that was received, bears date the 27th. That is the message on the files.


John Howard Sinclair: How is that?


John Douglas Hazen: The telegram bears date
the 27th. My hon. friend says it was sent cn the 23rd, and it would certainly appear from the statement he has read from the telegraph company as if undoubtedly Mrs. Richard had sent the telegram on the 23rd.

I am not disputing that fact at all; but I would say that in some way or other this message was sent back and forth to different places, and when it was sent to Halifax, the captain of the Canada was not there. It bears the date of the 27th. That, however, does not affect the merits of the case in any way.


John Howard Sinclair: I have a copy of the
message here.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, and we have a copy of it on our file. That is the statement of Mr. Stewart in regard to the matter. It does not make any difference. The message was not delivered until the 27th, and on that date Mr. Richard had been buried for some days, and it was impossible to send his body down to Nova Scotia for interment. The message was received by the captain of the Canada only on the 27th. Mrs. Richard tried to communicate at an earlier date, but unfortunately the message was not delivered by any one whatever to Mr. Stewart or any one in the department. The Canada was at sea, and the message could not be delivered until she came into port.


John Howard Sinclair: A message was sent to Mr. Ower on the 23rd. My hon. friend will remember that one of the messages sent to Mrs. Richard instructed her to communicate with Dr. Ower in Montreal. She did so, and that ought to have been sufficient, even if the captain of the Canada did not receive the message.


John Douglas Hazen: The information given me by my officials is that Dr. Ower never received that message.


John Howard Sinclair: He replied to it.


John Douglas Hazen: We knew nothing about it in my department in any way. We never heard of his having received it. Had that message come to the attention of the marine authorities, they, of course, would have forwarded Richard's body to Nova Scotia, where it was to be buried. That would have been the humane and proper thing to have done, and the Marine and Fisheries Department would certainly have sent the body of a man dying in the Government service forward at the expense of the department.
It appears there was a boy whom Richard supported. Some time after Richard's death, an application was received by the department for assisting and caring for this boy. It did not appear clear what the relationship

was, and Admiral Kings mi 11 entered into communication on the subject with Captain Stewart of the Canada, and he received a personal reply from Captain Stewart based on the statement, he said, of E. Richard, cousin of the deceased, stating that the boy was a nephew of the deceased and that his father was alive and well able to take care of him, and that he did not -see why Mrs. Richard should ask for assistance. That information was in the department at the time the return was brought down in this House on the 9th of February of last year. On further inquiry by the department, a letter was received on June 22 from Mr. Richard addressed to the minister, .stating -that this boy was no relation whatever of LeBlanc. but that as he was left destitute LeBlanc had taken care of him. LeBlanc died suddenly after having been in the employ of the department only a few months. Under those circumstances, I would ask my hon. friend if he thinks the country should make a grant for that boy. He was no relation to the man who died. The man who took care of him did so out of the kindness of his heart. With all sympathy for the boy under the circumstances-	,


John Howard Sinclair: The boy was adopted in a formal manner by Joseph LeBlanc, Remie's brother, and when Remie died there was no one to take cafe of the boy, and Joseph took charge of him in place of his brother.
Mr. HAZEN-: Under those circumstances it would be carrying the matter pretty far if the Government had to take care of this boy. If LeBlanc had been in the service of the Government for a great many years and was taking care of this boy, something might have been done; but cases occur practically every year in the Government service of a man employed in the Government service dying and leaving dependents upon him. I can hardly imagine a case where we would not be obliged to make provision for the relatives, if we were obliged to do so in this case. We naturally feel all possible sympathy for a boy left under those circumstances. Personally we would be disposed to contribute to his support or to help him in some way; but does my hon. friend think that Government assistance ought to be -carried to the extent that he now suggests it should be, and that, if a sailor upon a Government ship dies leaving some one
dependent upon him, if that sailor has been in the Government employ only a short time and dies through natural causes and not in consequence of his duty to the Government, the Government should make provision for the dependent? With every possible sympathy for the woman and the boy, I do not think it is a case where I should recommend to Parliament that a grant be made for his support.


John Howard Sinclair: The principal reason I had for referring again to the matter was to clear up the mistakes of last year. There was a feeling of unfairness and injustice amongst the relatives of Jos. LeBlanc, that the matter had not been stated correctly in this House.
Fisheries-to provide for the maintenance of experimental work for the reduction of dogfish, |60,000.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister been successful yet in arranging for a test case with the Government of the province of Quebec regarding fisheries?


John Douglas Hazen: Correspondence upon that subject is now being carried on between the Attorney General's Department in Quebec and the Department of Justice here. I have not seen the Department of Justice for the last few days. I was in hopes that an arrangement was about to be reached.


Charles Marcil: Will action be taken by the department this year on this question?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, if an arrangement is come to, to have the matter finally settled by the courts.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the cost of the Fisheries Advisory Board?


John Douglas Hazen: There was a statement showing the whole cost, in answer to a question given to the House this session. I will look it up for my hon. friend. He will find it in Hansard.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.
Monday, March 29, 1915.