1915-02-16

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Regulations under the Destructive Insect Pest Act.-Hon. M. Burrell.
Report on the Agricultural Instruction Act, 1913-14.-Hon. M. Burrell.
Supplement to the 47th Annual Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, Fisheries Branch: Contributions to Canadian Biology, being studies from the biological stations of Canada, 1911-1914, Part I, Marine Biology.-Hon. J. D. Hazen.

Right Hon.   S@: I have much pleasure
in communicating to the House the following telegram just received by His Royal Highness the Governor General from the Secretary of State for the Colonies:
Mr. Harcourt to Governor General.
London, February 16, 1915. Your ministers will be glad to learn that the whole of the Canadian contingent are doing well at the front, having safely crossed over to France.
(Sgd) Harcourt.



POLLUTION OF NAVIGABLE WATERS.

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APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE. Mr. HAZEN moved:
That a Select Standing Committee consisting of Messrs. Boyer, Bradbury, Burrell, Casgrain, Graham, Gray, Hazen, Kyte, Lesperance, Mc-Craney, Molloy, Murphy, Northrup, Descarries, Warr.ock, and Wilson (Wentworth), be appointed to inquire into the pollution of navigable waters and consider all matters relating thereto, with power to send for persons, papers and rfcords, to examine witnesses under oath, and to report from time to time.
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Hazen, the Order for the House to go into committee on Bill No. 2, respecting the pollution of navigable waters, was discharged and the Bill was referred to the special committee above named.

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APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE. Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved:
That the report of the Board of Inquiry consisting of Lieutenant Colonel W. H. Halleck, 1'.. A. Stevens, Esq., and Theo. Galipeau, Esq., respecting boots supplied to the Department of Militia and Defence, a copy of which report was laid upon the table of the House on the 
15th instant, and all matters pertaining to the boots so supplied to the said department, be referred to a special committee of seven members with instructions to investigate the matters aforesaid and to report thereon to this House.
That the committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses on oath or affirmation and to report from time to time.
That the following members shall constitute the said committee, namely, Sir James Aikins, Mr. McCurdy, Mr. Middlebro, Mr. Rainville, Mr. Macdonald, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. .Nesbitt.
Motion agreed to.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I notice that the report placed upon the table of the House the day before yesterday, to which reference is made in this motion, does not contain the reference upon which the board of inquiry has acted. The commission has been omitted. It would be interesting to the House and to the committee to have the commission.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I am not sure whether there is any formal commission or not. It was a board constituted, I believe, according to military usage to make inquiry into a particular matter. If it should be found that there was a more definite reference to that board I shall be very glad to have it brought down.


Wilfrid Laurier: I notice that the report is made by one official of the department and two outsiders. Presumably they must have received some instructions.


Robert Laird Borden: Colonel Halleck,
I understand, is an officer at the head of a particular branch that has control of such matters. The other two gentlemen are outsiders-Mr. E. A. Stephens of the city of Ottawa, who is a dealer in boots and shoes and is supposed to have expert knowledge in such matters, and Mr. Theo. Galipeau of Montreal, who, I understand, is a manufacturer of shoes.


Wilfrid Laurier: There was no commission, but were no instructions given as to what was expected of them?


Robert Laird Borden: We shall be glad to bring down whatever information there is.


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Motion agreed to.
CANADIAN PATRIOTIC FUND ACT .	AMENDMENT.
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 39, to amend the Canadian Patriotic Fund Act, 1914. He said:
This Bill is intended to amend the

Act for two purposes:	first, to enable
the Corporation created by the Act of 1914 to assist the wives, children and dependent relatives of residents of Newfoundland who may be on active service during the present war in the military or naval forces of Canada; secondly, to assist men of the Canadian expeditionary forces who may become incapacitated in the course of the war and return to Canada; and likewise to assist the widows and dependent relatives of members of the Canadian expeditionary forces who may be killed during the war. Under the present Act, the power to extend assistance to wives, children and dependent relatives is limited to relatives of residents of Canada actually serving in the expeditionary forces; so that under the law as it now stands, assistance could not be given to the dependent relatives of a resident of Newfoundland on active service in our naval or military forces. I understand that there are a number of these men, more particularly in the naval force, and we desire to treat their relatives in the same manner as those of Canadian residents on active service.
Under the present Act the Corporation has no power to give any assistance to members of the Canadian expeditionary forces who have become incapacitated during the war and returned to Canada. Its powers are limited to giving assistance to the wives, children and dependent relatives of men on actual service. Again, under the Act as it now stands, there is no power to give assistance to the wives, children and dependent relatives of men who have been killed on active service. The present amendment will give the Corporation these powers. With regard to the power to assist either men who have been incapacitated and returned to Canada, or widows, children and dependent relatives of men who have been killed, it is provided that this power can be exercised at any time during the war or within six months after the war, but that it shall not be exercisable for a period of more than six months, in favour of any one individual, person or persons, or the relative of any one person or persons; and, further, that it shall not be exercisable in favour of persons who are in receipt of a pension provided by Canada. It is, in effect, intended to cover a period which may elapse after a man has died or become incapacitated and before his dependent relatives, or himself if living, may have established their right to the benefit of a pension that may be provided
either by Canada or by the government of the country in whose service the man may have been. [DOT]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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' sale of military stores.
Mr. JOHN H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 40, to amend the Criminal Code. He said: The object of this Bill is to make it a crime to defraud the Government by the sale of military or navai stores. The word "stores" is used in the Interpretation Act to cover ail articles sold to military or naval authorities.
1 was surprised on examining the criminal code to find that no punishment has been provided for defrauding the Government in this way, although ample provision is made for the punishment of any fraud perpetrated by a man on his fellow man. It is well that parties who attempt to defraud the Government, especially at a time like this, should know that there is a day of reckoning to come. I would give them to understand that, while they may deceive an innocent Minister of Militia or some simple general or colonel in his department, any attempt to defraud the Government may bring them behind the bars of a penitentiary. That is the object of the Bill.
I do not suggest that there are many people practising this kind of fraud in Canada. I do not know, but if some of the public speeches of the Minister of Militia have any weight, there are some at least. I understand the minister proposed that he should be given leave to shoot these swindlers, but I do not propose anything so drastic as that; that looks to me very much like a German move. My proposal is to give them two years behind the bars of some Canadian penitentiary. I am quite well aware that I shall not secure the passage of this Bill without the consent of the Minister of Justice, and I should like to ask him to see that this important and necessary Bill goes through the necessary stages and finally becomes a part of the criminal law of Canada.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved:: That a Select Committee composed of Messrs. Northrup, Maclean (Halifax), Murphy, Carvell,

Bobicioux, Bennett (Calgary), and the mover be appointed to inquire into the operation of the Act relating to the election of members of this House, and into the practice and procedure in connection with election petitions; and to consider what changes are desirable therein, with power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses under oath, and to report from time to time.
He said: The House will remember that at the last session a committee was appointed for the purpose set forth in the present resolution. That committee held a number of sittings, gathered some very valuable information, took steps to prepare a draft of legislation that seemed to be desirable, and in its report to the House recommended that it should be feconstituted at the present session in order that it might proceed with its labours. It is to give effect to that suggestion of the report that I now make this motion. The composition of the committee is changed to this extent: the name of Mr. Bennett, of Calgary, is substituted for the name of Mr. McKay, who last session represented Prince Albert in this House, but has since been appointed to the bench.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understood from the report presented by the committee last session, that a Bill was to be prepared by the parliamentary counsel for submission. Is there such a draft Bill now in existence?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The Bill has been put in regular shape by the parliamentary counsel for re-submission to the Committee.


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Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That when this House adjourns this day, it stand adjourned until Thursday next; that Government orders shall have precedence after questions and notices of motions for the production of papers on Thursdays until the end of the session; and that Government orders sha 1 also have the same precedence on Wednesdays as on Thu: sdays until the end of the session; the House to meet at three o'clock on Wednesdays, and the sittings on such Wednesdays to be in all respects under the same rules* provided for other days.
He said: This motion to take Wednesdays and Thursdays for Government business is earlier this session than is usual. I may point out, however, that the session of the Imperial Parliament commenced on the 11th of November and continued to the 27th of that month, when after a session of sixteen days it adjourned until a few days ago. Practically all the time of that session was taken up with Government business, prob-

ably by consent or by some arrangement. Since the session of the Imperial Parliament has been resumed, the entire time has been devoted to Government business. We do not purpose proceeding that far here, as Monday is reserved for private members. There will be also the evenings of Tuesday and Friday for private Bills, and on Wednesdays and Thursdays Government orders are not to be taken up until after notices of motion for production of papers, and questions.


Wilfrid Laurier: There are really three motions included in this. The first is that the House should not sit to-morrow, Ash Wednesday, and that goes as a matter of course. The other two motions are to take for Government business first the Thursdays, and then the Wednesdays. We on this side of the House have no disposition to interfere with the object which is to be served by this motion, which comes earlier this session than in any other previous session. We know the peculiar circumstances under which we are meeting, and we find no fault with the proposition generally speaking. Under the Rules of the House Thursday becomes a Government day automatically after the House has been in session for a month, and then, in about the sixth week of the session, the Government moves to take Wednesday, whereas that motion is now made in what is practically the second week of the session. Private members will under this motion be deprived of every day except Monday, and consequently there are several important matters on the Order Paper which will not come up this session, amongst others the Bill of Mr. Bradbury, which has been to-day referred to a special committee, the Bill of Mr. Armstrong to amend the Railway Act, the resuming of the adjourned debate on the motion of Mr. Bickerdike on his Bill relating to capital punishment, an important Bill to amend the Criminal Code, introduced by Mr. McCraney, a Bill by Mr. Maclean (York),, to amend the Railway Act, and the resuming of the adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of Mr. Lemieux with regard to copyright. My suggestion to my right hon. friend is that he should not take next Thursday, when these Bills can probably be discussed.


Robert Laird Borden: I will accept that.


Wilfrid Laurier: Then will the right hon. gentleman give us next Friday for private members' day in the same manner as we had Friday of last week? If that

were done we would have no objection to offer to the motion. The proposition with regard to Wednesdays would come into force on Wednesday, the 24th instant.


Robert Laird Borden: I will have the motion amended so as to meet the suggestions of my right hon. friend. We will take next Friday as private members' day, the order to be the same as it would have been on Wednesday had we been sitting to-morrow. I move the motion in the following amended form:
That when this House adjourns this day it stand adjourned until Thursday next; that Government orders shall have precedence after questions and notices of motions for production of papers on Thursdays on and after the 25th instant until the end of the session, and that Government orders shall also have the same precedence on Wednesdays as on Thursdays until the end of the session; the House to meet at three o'clock on Wednesdays, and the sittings on such Wednesdays to he in all respects under the same rules provided for other days.
Motion as amended agreed to.



SOUTH WELLINGTON MINE DISASTER.

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On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. WILLIAM GRAY (London):: I wish to ask if the Government has any knowledge of the serious accident which has recently taken place in the Pacific Coal Company's Mine at South Wellington, Vancouver Island, British Columbia. I notice by the press reports that some of the workmen have lost their lives. As I am a new member, it is with some diffidence that I ask the question. I have waited several days anticipating that some other honourable member would do so; but I feel it my duty in the interest of the workingmen of Canada to inquire into the facts. Miners have very arduous duties to perform, and there are many of them engaged in various parts of Canada. I know something of their duties and dangers, as I have been for some years in the mining business. They are exposed to underground work-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The hon. member is out of order in introducing a discussion at this stage. It would be in order for him simply to ask a question, and I hope the hon. member will confine himself to doing that.


Hon. T. W. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour):: A few days ago a fair wage officer residing in Vancouver .advised me that twenty miners had been drowned in one of the Pacific Coast Coal Company's mines at South Wellington, Vancouver Island. He was
instructed to proceed at once to South Wellington and advise us as to conditions there. One of the expert officers of the Department of Mines was also instructed to go to South Wellington. Later I received another message from the fair wage officer saying that the accident had occurred in "this way. There was an old mine, worked out many years ago and was full of water, near the mine that was being opened. The miners working at a lower level in the new mine had broken through into the old mine, and the water in the latter had rushed into the new mine, in which there were ninety-eight men working. Seventy-eight of them escaped, but the remaining twenty were drowned. The officer also advised me that nothing could be done by way of an investigation until the mine was pumped out; that was being done, but that it would require several weeks to empty the mine. It is the intention of the provincial government to make a thorough' investigation, and it is our intention that an expert of the Department of Mines shall attend that investigation in an advisory capacity.



MINISTERIAL CHANGES.

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On the-motion of Sir Robert Borden for Committee of Supply:
Robert Laird Borden: My right hon.
friend the leader of the Opposition has asked me to make a statement with regard to the changes in the Ministry which have taken place since the session of August last. Two changes have taken place, as my right hon. friend and hon. members generally are aware. Mr. Pelletier, who was Postmaster General from the time that we took office until some time in October last, felt that his physical strength was not equal to the further performance of the very arduous duties imposed upon him as the head of that important department. I know personally that he had been advised by his physician from time to time during the past eighteen months that his health would not bear the very severe strain imposed upon it. Those who were colleagues of Mr. Pelletier, and especially I, as head of the Government, have reason to know that he applied himself to the duties of his office with a vigour and an industry -which perhaps have never been surpassed by a member of any administration since Confederation. I do not think it is too much to say that no minister at the head of the Post Office Department has ever proved himself more capable as an administrator than Mr. Pelletier. The correspondence

which has taken place between Mr. Pelletier and myself has been laid upon the table of the House.
The former Minister of Inland Revenue, Mr. Nantel, has also retired from the Government and has been appointed to a position on the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada. The position which he now fills had formerly been occupied by Mr. Bernier, at one time a member of the late Administration, whose health in recent years prevented him from giving to the discharge of his duties the attention which he would undoubtedly have desired to give. Mr. Nantel, as head of the Department of Inland Revenue, occupied himself very closely and assiduously with the duties of his department, and the correspondence which took place between him and myself upon the occasion of his retirement has been placed upon the table of the House.
Mr. Casgrain, who succeeds Mr. Pelletier as Postmaster General, has had a long service in public life, although in recent years it has been interrupted for a considerable period.
Both in the Legislature of Quebec and in the parliament of Canada he had been a distinguished figure years before he made his re-entry into public life as Postmaster General. I have no doubt he will give to the duties of his department the same indefatigable attention, and that he will bring to them the same ability, as characterized the administration of his predecessor.
Mr. Nantel, as Minister of Inland Revenue, has been succeeded by Mr. Blondin, a man whose services in public life have not been nearly so long as that of Mr. Pelletier, as he came into Parliament only in 1908. During the past three yeafs, having been selected to occupy the position of Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees, he has displayed, sometimes under very difficult conditions, an ability, discretion and good judgment which I am sure must haye commended themselves to the members of the House without exception. I have no doubt that in his new position as a responsible minister of the Crown he will display the same qualities and will give to the public service of the country an administration which will commend itself to the judgment of all.


Wilfrid Laurier: The explanations which have been given to the House by my right hon. friend (Sir Robert Borden) have been copious in words though absolutely lacking in substance. He has told us what everybody who reads the news-
papers already knew that there have been two vacancies and that they have both been filled. I have no exception to take to what he said of Mr. Pelletier, as to his ability and vigour. Mr. Pelletier was well known to us who come from Quebec as a man of ability, and those who did not come from that province were soon convinced of hi* ability when they saw him in office. As to his vigour, especially in the line of dismissals, I do not think, it was exceeded even by any of those who still remain on the Treasury Benches. I have known Mr. Pelletier for a great many years, and I think I can do him no injustice if I add to what has been said about his qualities that he is also possessed of qualities which find expression in the maxim, " What we have we'll hold." He never was known willingly to give up what he had obtained. It was a surprise to us who knew his good points and his weaker points that he had made up his mind to' resign his office. Some there were who remembered that Mr. Pelletier had carried on his campaign in 1911 on the policy of no participation by Canada in the wars of Great Britain, and that the Canadian navy should be destroyed unless the scheme were approved by a plebiscite; who remembered also that, after having taken office he went to his constituents for re-election, he promised that he would obtain a plebiscite or something better. When something better did not come, some there were who proposed that he should do what Mr. Monk had done, and withdraw. Others remembered that when he went for re-election, and afterwards, he more than once told the people of Quebec that as he had agreed to have the shops of the Transcontinental removed from the line of the Transcontinenetal to the line of the Canadian Northern railway, some nine miles from the Transcontinental line, he would see to it that the line of railway, which runs in the valley of the St. Lawrence river, and the shops which are in the valley of the St. Charles river would be connected by a tunnel; but, finding that the Minister of Railways was obdurate and would not agree to the tunnel, finding, as I should say if the Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) were present, that the minister had hardened the heart of Quebec, he thought that it was due to his honour not to remain in a Government in which he could not have his wishes and promises carried out. But all these suppositions were wrong. The true reason of the removal, or rather resignation, of Mr. Pelletier is to be found in his ill-health. All were certainly sorry



1C15

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to hear that Mr. Pelletier's health was not equal to the duties he had undertaken to perform. But their feelings were relieved when they found that, though he was too ill to be a minister of the Crown, at least he could serve the people as a judge of the Superior Court of the province of Quebec. It is singular how bad health will affect individual cases when, unfortunately, it comes to gentlemen on the other side of the House. Here is Mr. Pelletier unable to serve the country as a minister of the Crown but still with health enough to be a judge of the Superior Court of Quebec; and here is my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) unable to serve the country as a judge and serving the country as a minister of the Crown. This is a. fortunate condition of things which may not be quite plain to the common understanding, but it can be explained by the flexible and elastic logic of the Conservative party, which can always find a solution of every difficulty, and find it on the profitable side.
With regard to the successor of Mr. Pelletier, Mr. Casgrain, I have only a word to say. In my humble judgment he was the logical appointment under the circumstances. Mr. Casgrain has always been a Tory, an undiluted Tory. If he were here, I am sure he would not object to that compliment; or reverse of compliment. He is certainly entitled to the credit-or discredit- of having been under all circumstances a pure, undiluted Tory. He never served the new gods whose stars have risen on the horizon; he was always faithful to his old convictions. I give him full credit for that. He and I are old friends. It is a pleasure personally, though I must say the reverse of a pleasure politically, to see him where he is. And I am sure that the statement of my right hon. friend as to Mr. Casgrain's ability to fulfil the duties of his office will be realized. As to his political views or convictions I cannot say much; they are the misfortune of his circumstances.
There is another change. Mr. Nantel also has been called away from the floor of Parliament and removed to another sphere. It is not my intention to say anything of the removal.of Mr. Nantel from office, but I may have something to say as to the choice of his successor, the present incumbent of the office, the hon. member for Champlain (Mr. Blondin). It seemed an evidence of the irony of fate that the hon. member for Champlain, the arch-Nationalist, should have been introduced into this House by my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), the arch-14
Imperialist. When, on the opening of the session, I saw the new minister walking into this House leaning upon the arm of my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, I thought the Minister of Trade and Commerce showed by the way he seemed to be limping that he had a heavy load to carry. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce has always been an insistent advocate of imperialism. I cannot say as much of his new colleague; but perhaps, after all, there may be within the ranks of the Conservative party, as there is somewhere else, some joy over the conversion of one sinner. The Minister of Inland Revenue was introduced by my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce. When he told you, Sir, that that hon. gentleman had taken the oath and had signed the roll, I thought he would add that the hon. gentleman had filled up the holes in the flag and that he would now breathe the atmosphere of liberty. But he did not, and really there was no necessity.for his doing so. The hon. member for Champlain is now breathing the atmosphere of office; he has found an atmosphere which is suitable to him, and he can breathe freely, whether there are holes in the flag or not. I have only this to observe: when my hon. friend the Minister of Inland Revenue, then the hon. member for Champlain, was making the speeches which he did make in the province of Quebec; when he was threatening to destroy the Canadian navy when he had an opportunity of doing so, I never believed that he meant one-half of what he said. I always supposed, and rightly supposed, that what he was after was simply to create advantage for himself and for his party. He has succeeded. He is now in office, but to attain office he has travelled a very dangerous road. He has sown the seed of discord -and these appeals to passion are always sure to bring forth a crop of prejudices. My hon. friend the Minister of Inland Revenue is a young member of this House; perhaps he will permit me to say, since he now has the responsibility of office, that he had better always stand by true principle.
Charles Joseph Doherty: If there were wanting evidence of how absolutely at a loss the right hon. gentleman is to find unfavourable comment to make upon the resignation of my hon. friend Mr. Pelletier and his nomination to the Bench, it certainly would be found in the fact that he could not do so otherwise than by making a statement in this House



which is absolutely and unqualifiedly untrue.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If hon. gentlemen will allow me to say what I wish to say-


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I only wish to remind the hon. member that to make the assertion that another member said what was untrue knowing it to be untrue, is not parliamentary.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Take it back.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I said that the statement was untrue; if I had been allowed to proceed I think it would have appeared that I was not stating that the right hon. gentleman knowingly stated what was untrue. If- I may be permitted to complete my phrase, I think I shall be able to put before this House what are the actual facts and at the same time be within the limit of parliamentary rules. I was going on to say that the right hon. gentleman ought to have known the assertion to be untrue. I say that because, Mr. Speaker, every man who knows me, and who knows the circumstances under which I resigned my position on the bench-and I thought until to-day that I might count the right hon. gentleman among them-knows that in connection with my resignation there never was a question, in any manner, shape or form, of illness on my part, or of illness incapacitating me from my. duties on the bench. The letter in which I tendered my resignation is on record in the Department of Justice, and I defy my right hon. friend to find in that resignation the slightest suggestion of illness on my part. I tendered my resignation without the slightest suggestion that I was ill, and I asked for nothing when I tendered that resignation; I simply pointed out that under the express law of this country-a law enacted long before I was born-my fifteen years upon the bench of the Superior Court of the province of Quebec entitled me to the annuity for which that statute provided. I tendered my resignation to take effect when
4 p.m. that right was recognized, and the Government of which the right hon. gentleman was the leader recognized that right by accepting my resignation; yet the right hon. gentleman ventures to-day to make the assertion that he has made. I recall a previous occasion when the right hon. gentleman made the same statement-or, let me correct myself, when it was reported that the right hon. gentleman made the statement. That was in 1908, when I ventured to comply with the

request of what proved to be the larger number of the voters in the division which I have the honour to represent, and to present myself for election to this House. It was then reported in all the papers-among them the papers supporting the right hon. gentleman-that he made in that election campaign a statement similar to the one that he has made here to-day. At that time I took occasion to point out precisely what had occurred; to point out that my resignation, as I said a moment ago, had no connection with any illness or any pretension of illness on my part, and to point out publicly through the press that all the friends of the right hon. gentleman in the province of Quebec, if he did not, knew that perfectly. I can see before me gentlemen with whom I was, as I am glad to say I am to-day, upon terms of friendly intimacy, who sit upon the other side of the House, and who knew me then and knew that I was not ill, and had made no suggestion and no pretension that I was ill. I published that assertion, and the right hon. gentleman has not come back to it until this late date. I may say that afterwards the right hon. gentleman denied having found fault with me in connection with my resignation at that time. What light has come to him since, that he makes the assertion that he has made to-day?
It is certainly a pitiable sight; the leader of a great party compelled to resort to making statements of fact which certainly he cannot know to be true, and which, as I say, the public documents on record in the Department of Justice of this country, the documents forwarded to the Minister of Justice of the Government of Which he was the chief, demonstrate to be false; and that for the petty purpose of making some jeering remarks both with regard to myself, who, thank God, enjoyed at the time I retired from the bench, as I am glad to say I enjoy to-day, the very best of health, and at the expense of my friend the late Postmaster General, with regard to whom I am satisfied that every one who knew him knew that his health during all the time he was- with us left much to be desired. When he left us it was in that position that while his medical adviser would not take the responsibility of counselling him to continue to give constant and arduous and unremitting attention every moment to the numerous details which his duty in the position which he occupied imposed the obligation of looking after, we all know that it is not inconsistent with that, that the hon. gentleman should have been capable of doing the

work that would fall to his lot in the position which he is now filling, work of a totally different kind.
I do not know that there is anything I can add to what I have said. I have heard whisperings of what the right hon. gentleman has said to-day from other people before. I thought the right hon. gentleman was a bigger man than they are, but I find to-day that he has chosen to -put himself upon a level with them. It is a matter, of course, for his own choice to determine. In making the statement which he has made, I am bound to assume that he did not know what he ought to have known; but the thing that outstands is that the statement is absolutely untrue, and that if I am entitled to receive what I am receiving to-day, it is purely and simply that, as recognized by the Government of the right hon. gentleman, as recognized in particular by the	gentleman who in
that Government held the office which I hold, as it must be recognized by any man who can read a statute, that the contract under which I was appointed to the Bench of the Superior Court gave me the same absolute right to receive the pension it provides for on condition that I gave fifteen years of my life to service in that court as it gave me to any dollar of salary which I drew while I sat upon that Bench. I say the truth of that statement does not rest on my word; it rests upon the public record of my resignation, and its acceptance by his Government, and it is justified by the. express provision of the statute law of this country. I do not think there could be any more complete demonstration of the untruth of any statement susceptible of being made than that which I trust I have made of the untruth of the statement of the right hon. gentleman.


Wilfrid Laurier: In reply to the hon. gentleman's explanation, I just wish to say that I knew, as everybody knows, that the law of the land allows a judge, when he has served fifteen years, if he does not find 'himself equal to the task, to ask for his pension; but I should suppose that if he found himself equal to the task, rather than take the pension he would continue to discharge the duties of his office. The minister has told us that he accepted the pension being in perfect health. I accept his explanation; every one will accept it.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I rise for the purpose of saying that the right hon. gentleman, to bolster up his statement, has had to misstate the provision of the statute.


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX:: Just a word about the retirement of my good friend the ex-Postmaster General. I quite agree that the Hon. Mr. Pelletier left office because he was in poor health. But if he was in poor health, everybody knows that he is a rich man. I am surprised to find that now, after ihe has retired from the Government and is a judge of the land, receiving $7,000 a year and a pension after fifteen years at his sweet will, that the mail clerks, who earn something like two or three dollars a day, who have large families and get no pension, are called upon to raise a fund for the Hon. Mr. Justice Pelletier. I have received protests from some mail clerks who are indignant at the audacity of some sycophants around the Post Office Department in Ottawa who are trying to raise a fund for the Hon. Mr. Pelletier. I state the simple truth when I say that everybody knows that Mr. Pelletier is a very rich man. Here is a circular- and I call the attention of the right hon. gentleman to this-issued from Ottawa and dated January 14, 1914. It is as follows:
Appreciation for the Honourable Louis P. Pelletier, the friend of the man in the service.
Ottawa, January 14, 1914.
To Postmasters, Chief Clerks, Inspectors, Superintendents, Officers, Clerks and employees of the Post Office Department.
A few months ago some admirers of the Honourable L. P. Pelletier revived the idea of a testimonial to Mr. Pelletier in view of the great sympathy he had always shown towards the best interests of his department during his term as Postmaster General. Released from the cares of office Mr. Pelletier is now free to accept such a testimonial of our esteem, which was impossible while he was a minister of the Crown.
At the convention of the Civil Service Federation held in Ottawa, January 7, 8, and 9, the following committee was entrusted with the completion of the work: F. Grierson, G. Carpenter, J. C. O'Connor, C. A. Halladay, W. J. P. Cantwell, postal clerk, and Wm. Hoop, President Dominion Federation of Letter Carriers, Winnipeg. The committee found the work well advanced but wish to afford an opportunity to all the members of the department to subscribe.
Will you, therefore, constitute yourself the local treasurer of the fund, afford those in your branch or district an opportunity of subscribing, and forward the amount received without delay to the treasurer, C. A. Halladay, Railway Mail Service, at Ottawa, or to any of the above named committee. Small individual contributions only are requested, and all must be in the hands of the treasurer by April 15, 1915, on which day the fund will be closed.
Signed on behalf of the committee.
G. A. Carpenter,
Chairman,
Dead Letter Office, Montreal.
C. A. Halladay, Secretary-Treasurer, Railway Mail Service, Ottawa.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the date?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is dated 1914, but I think from the context it should be 1915.
I have received protests from some of the unfortunate mail clerks who are being mulcted in this way, and in these hard times, for the benefit of a very wealthy citizen of this country, Hon. Mr. Pelletier. Here is a letter from Kingston in reply to Mr. Halliday, the man who is passing the hat.
I have a circular letter signed by you asking for contributions from the mail clerks for a fund for the benefit of Hon. Mr. Justice Pelletier. I did not know he was in need of this * widow's mite ' from his late employees. If such is not the case and a few of his personal friends or those receiving special favours choose to make a personal presentation, then it is their business; but if it is to be made in the name of the service, then I think you have your nerve with you to undertake to speak for them.


Mr. ROGERS:: Who signed the letter?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will show my hon. friend the letter. I do not want this man to be dismissed. The idea of raising such a fund for Hon. Mr. Pelletier from the letter carriers and mail clerks passes my comprehension. It is simply a hold-up and an evidence of sycophancy on the part of those who are getting up the fund, and I am quite sure that if the Hon. Mr. Pelletier knew about it he would stop it at once.


Mr. GATJVREAU:: Do not be too sure.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, I must give the
devil his due. We are all being asked to contribute to one thing or another nowadays. There is the Patriotic Fund, the Belgian Relief Fund, subscriptions to hospitals and the Red Cross, and is the poor mail clerk and letter carrier to be asked to stretch the last stitch in his purse and to give his mite to the Hon. Mr. Pelletier, who is worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars? I am quite sure that if he knew about this fund he would give orders for the hold-up to be stopped at once. I hope that the right hon. gentleman will see that this circular does not circulate any more, and that orders are given to the young man whose name appears on this circular to stop soliciting subscriptions at once.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not understand that I have anything to do with it. I never heard of it before. The movement originated, as I gather from the remarks of my hon. friend, in the Civil Service Federation, which is not an official organization at all. Any person who receives a circular

would be absolutely at liberty to disregard it, and his disregard of it would not have the smallest effect in the world upon his status in the Civil Service.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee of Supply.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Department of Trade and Commerce

Deputy Minister, $5,000.	,
["I shall be better able to discuss the matter when the item comes up for consideration.\nAt six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.\nThe House resumed at 8 o'clock."]
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: There are two mistakes on this page which I wish to correct. In the 12th line it reads, '1 at $931 50"; that should be $937 50. In the Census and Statistics Branch, in line 10, it reads, "5 at $1,500"; that should be 5 at $1,050. These are just mistakes in printing.


Mr. NESBITT:: The number of clerks
appears to have been increased.


George Eulas Foster: The work of the department has been very greatly increased and I had to add three clerks in the lower grade.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Where does the increased work come in?


George Eulas Foster: It comes in from all branches. I should think I would be perfectly safe in saying that in the last six months or a year the work we have been doing in that department, counted by our communications in and out and general activities, has been pretty nearly twice as great as in the preceding year. That is a large statement to make but it is fairly well-borne out by the facts. Especially within the last six months the correspondence has been overwhelming.


Wilfrid Laurier: Where does it come from?


George Eulas Foster: From all over.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is it on
account of the expansion of trade or in consequence of the war?


George Eulas Foster: It is because of the larger number of inquiries resulting from conditions brought about by the war. Commercial questions, questions in reference to internal and external trade have multiplied exceedingly. The bulletin which had a very small circulation previously has now a very large circulation. My own particular part of the work is very much more onerous than it has ever been before

21a
in my experience in that department or in any other department with which I have been connected.


Mr. MURPHY:: Has work previously performed by other departments been transferred to the Department of Trade and Commerce?


Mr. PUGSLEY:: That was done two years ago.


Mr.   EJSSBITT@: I quite believe that the work of the department has materially increased, but I think it is a bad year to increase expenses in any department, and that it would be better to keep the work of the department down in some way or make those on the staff work harder.


George Eulas Foster: My officers are working for all they are worth and a great many of them are working overtime; I will tell my hon. friend what I would do if I had a free hand. I would add $100,000 to this department and I would put it this year and next year into the commerce side of the department, and I would do that because I believe that the activities to be developed in connection with the general work of the country, owing to the dislocation of trade, the openings for trade and the vast number of inquiries coming from every part, would justify it. If it were not that financial matters are in such a stringent condition I would ask my colleagues for a 'large increase in this vote and I would use it I think to the great good of the country.


William Pugsley: Could not the minister
make some arrangement by which part of the clerical work could be done by some other department where the business has fallen off, for example, the Customs Department, the revenue of which is some $30,000,000 less than formerly, and which . cannot have anything like the necessity for the same clerical staff it had when there was an abounding and expanding revenue, as was the case under the previous Government? I speak of this because in this time of stress, when the Minister of Finance is obliged to impose what he, improperly I think-if I could use the emphatic language of the Minister of Justice, untruthfully I think-calls a war tax, which is striking everybody in this country, striking people who cannot afford to pay it, it does not seem to be a proper time to increase the expenses of administering the different departments. The Minister of Trade and Commerce is adding to the items on page
27 of the Estimates altogether pretty close to $12,000, which is a pretty heavy jump for one year, particularly a year like the present, when everybody in this country feels the necessity of curtailing. People who could very well make use of more employees in their business are cutting down the number of hands employed by them; they are doing more work themselves, they are spending longer hours at their business, in order to economize, and yet we find the Government instead of economizing going on increasing the expenditure of this department. Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce noticed the Ottawa Citizen of this morning, which refers to the addition of a number of employees and consequent very great increase in expenditures? The Citizen quotes from a statement made by Prof. Shortt, the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, at a meeting a short time ago, as to which the Citizen says:
Prof. Shortt referred to the return brought down in Parliament a few days ago, showing the names of 2.000 men who had been dismissed since the change of government. Who, asked the Speaker, took the places of the 2,000? The answer was 10,000.
It is a great pity that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who has been usually recognized as being pretty economical-perhaps the economical member of the Government-has not had some supervision over these other departments in which such an enormous increase in the number of employees has taken place. If that statement of Prof. Shortt is true, what does it mean? It means that, since this Government has come into power, during a considerable part of which time business has been depressed and times have been hard, if the statement of Prof. Shortt is true, there has been added to the employees of the Government the enormous number of 8,000. Assuming that their average salary would be $1,000-1 do not imagine that would be too large a figure-it would mean an addition of $8,000,000 to the expenditure of the country. Prof. Shortt, the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, is regarded as being very careful and accurate in what he says; and, if his statement is correct, this is rather an alarming state of affairs. Surely that expenditure might be avoided. Surely it is better to put up-, with some inconvenience; surely it is. better for the clerks already in the service; to work a little harder and for the ministers and deputy ministers to give a little more attention to their departments, than to go on so rapidly increasing expenditure.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: It is hardly fair to.
Charge the Minister of Trade and Commerce with this large addition to the service, because he is not by any means the greatest offender. I find, on examining the return, that in the Department of Trade and Commerce there were thirteen dismissals and forty-nine appointments during the present Administration. Some of the other departments, however, have gone much further than that in the number of appointments. The Department of Customs has dismissed 271 persons and appointed 1,649. The Department of Indian Affairs has dismissed 135 and appointed 295. The Department of Inland Revenue has dismissed 73 and appointed 291. The Department of the Interior has dismissed 309 and appointed 1,651. The Department of Justice has dismissed 20 and appointed 257.


William Pugsley: With immigration falling off.


John Howard Sinclair: The Department of
Public Works is perhaps the greatest offender of all, with 511 dismissals and 2,002 appointments.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Shocking!


John Howard Sinclair: The Department of the Secretary of State has dismissed 20 and appointed 287. The Department of Railways has dismissed 363 and appointed 2,076. The total number of dismissals is 2,115 and the total number of appointments 10,576.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about the Post
Office Department?


John Howard Sinclair: I have not the figures.


Mr. J. D. REID:: They did not dismiss
any.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: In observing the remarks of Prof. Shortt in regard to the subject to which the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) has drawn attention,
I noticed that the return said nothing whatever of retirements; and I myself was rather surprised that a man in the position which Prof. iShortt occupies should, with a return in that form, give the impression which would evidently be gathered from his words as reported in the press. During the discussion which may ensue on the words of the hon. member for St. John, it should be kept in mind ithat, whatever explanation there may be, tthe fact appears very patently that no account is taken of the very great number which there must be of retirements.


William Pugsley: How many would there
be?


Arthur Meighen: Would the hon. member expect me to answer that?	[DOT]


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Fifty at the most.


Arthur Meighen: I think those who affect to speak publicly on the subject should know before they speak.


William Pugsley: When my hon. friend
the Solicitor General says there are a great many retirements, he ought to be able to give us an idea of the number, if it be around 25 or 50 or 100.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister indicate to the committee what his staff is doing in the matter of seeking new outlets for Canadian trade? He has informed us that his department is extremely busy at one thing or another in consequence of the unsettled trade conditions, but he has not given us any definite idea as to the nature of the work his department is doing.


George Eulas Foster: Perhaps my hon. friend would rather take the items as they come under the regular heads. There is a vote which will come up shortly for trade commissioners, to which appertains chiefly the extension of trade. It would be better if the discussion would come up on that.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I think this is the proper place, because we are asked to vote these increases in salaries upon the ground that extra work has been thrown upon the department by reason of trade conditions. The Minister of Trade and Commerce usually gets through his estimates very quickly, and we may never again have an opportunity to have this explanation. It need not be a lengthy one.


George Eulas Foster: I was a little
amused at my hon. friend the member for St. John, who professed to be greatly alarmed at the increase of expenditures shown in this modest estimate of mine.


William Pugsley: This is only a sample.


George Eulas Foster: Verily some
great change must have taken place in my hon. friend during the last five or six years if he has learned now to be afraid of a small increase occasioned by the appointment of four or five clerks, mostly of low grade. My memory is fairly good; and I think I have been in the House when my hon. friend has come down, not only in connection with

his own estimates, but in company with his colleagues, and has asked for far larger increases, and he has never shown the least sign of alarm in his countenance.


William Pugsley: Those were prosperous
times.	_


George Eulas Foster: But my hon.
friend is taking fright at so small a bogey as is before him at the present moment. I would like to know what will become of him when he approaches some of my colleagues, of whom he has been speaking to-day, and comes up against what my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) has stated to be very large increases. It is not very fair that the brunt of this should come against the least offending one, according to my hon. friend's own contention. I have, however, always been used to taking a heavy burden on my shoulders.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Sin no more. ,


George Eulas Foster: I have appointed to permanent positions three clerks, who have been in the service of the department for a number of years at $500 each. Then there is an appointment, in the Census and Statistics branch, one in the third division; but while there is an appointment of one extra in that division, a very large number have been dropped out from the non-permanent statistical work on account of the work which had been apportioned to them in the way of tabulations and such like having been performed. But there is always a certain amount of work which remains over for file clerks after these tabulations have been made.
The one appointment that was made here is to keep up with that extra work. If my hon. friend insists that I should go into a disquisition to-day on general trade matters, of course I shall have to oblige him but he would oblige me if he would leave it over until the time when the principal items of the Trade and Commerce Estimates come up. I shall show to better advantage at that time.
Canada's proportion of expenditure in connection with International Customs Tariffs Bureau, $662.


George Eulas Foster: This is the International Customs Bureau which has been in operation for eight or ten years.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is that the one with its head office in Brussels?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. Since the war commenced it has not been carrying on its work, but we hope there will be an end to the war, and when that comes this work will be taken up -again, I suppose.
Gold and Silver Marking Act, $4,000.


George Eulas Foster: This work is carried on by our inspector, Mr. W. J. Ryan, of Toronto. He has been in charge of the work since the Act came into force. His salary is $2,000 a year. He was formerly an official of the Department of Agriculture for this same work, which has been transferred to my department.
West India cable, $38,932.33.


George Eulas Foster: 
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has there been any addition to the length of cable provided lor this service?


George Eulas Foster: No.
Supervision of lake and ocean freight rates,


George Eulas Foster: This is a vote I took last year for the purpose of employing an officer with expert knowledge, and at the same time practical knowledge, of freight rates, particularly of ocean rates and also rates by lake and river, in connection chiefly with the trade from the Great Lakes to and across the Atlantic. I explained last year why I wanted the vote and it was given me by the House, but it has been impossible for me to find a really good man whose services I could get, and so I have not made the appointment. I do not intend to fill the position until I find the one whom I consider to be the proper man; and it is

sometimes difficult to engage such a man, because they are not usually idle but are taken up by the great transportation companies, and it is difficult to get them at a fair salary. However, communications are now in progress which I think will result in my being able to find a man for the position.


Charles Murphy: Does this vote coyer salary alone ?


George Eulas Foster: Salary and
general expenses.


William Pugsley: How is it intended to supervise ocean freight ?


George Eulas Foster: As the hon. gentleman is aware, the Minister of Trade and Commerce makes a great many of these steamship contracts and provides the lines with subsidies, and has to oversee the service itself. I was successful in getting a very good man to take in charge the supervision of the service in Canada on both coasts and also the inland services that were subsidized. But in these contracts ' there is a clause which gives the Minister of Trade and Commerce the power to fix rates. So I find myself obliged to make decisions of that kind yet without the technical and expert advice necessary to give what I think a reasonable judgment. What I wished was expert advice upon which I could rely in enforcing these clauses of the contracts. A layman who has to deal with these matters finds it difficult to follow the intricacies of transport rates by 'land or sea. It is one of the most difficult and 'complex subjects that I ever attempted to get some knowledge of. The object then, of the vote is to get an advisor or expert who can inform the department and the minister with reference to these matters.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why not call in an expert each time you require one?


George Eulas Foster: If my hon.
friend had charge of the department I do not think he would be able to do that very well. Invariably the expert would be connected with a transportation company; one would need to enlist the services of an expert receiving salary or emolument not from these companies, but from the department.


Charles Murphy: Would it not be possible for my hon. friend to avail himself of the services of Mr. Hardwell or some of the other experts of the Board of Railway Com-

missioners to deal with these particular matters?


George Eulas Foster: I think their
time is pretty well taken up. I talked that over with the Chairman of the Railway Board; there are many things in respect of which we could co-operate if we had an expert of that kind in connection with ocean services.


William Pugsley: The minister stated that under the mail contract there is power on the part of the department to regulate and control freight rates. I should like to ask my hon. friend if he has taken any steps to regulate ocean freights in respect of subsidized mail steamers during the past six months. It appears that the rate on lumber shipped to the United Kingdom, which a year or two ago was 36 shillings per standard of lumber, to-day is 100 shillings. That, of course, very seriously interferes with the export of lumber to the United Kingdom. The freight charges made by the subsidized steamers naturally have a very considerable effect upon the charges made by steamers which do not belong to the regular lines and which are not subsidized.


George Eulas Foster: I think my hon. friend will recognize that the last six months have been a very difficult and stormy period in which to try to regulate ocean freight rates; the causes for this condition my hon. friend very well knows. Our subsidized steamship lines crossing the Atlantic were levied on by the British Government, owing to the necessity for securing transports, and were time after time much reduced in their bests vessels. All the great lines had their best vessels taken aw,ay from them, and they had to get such vessels as they could find. This disorganized and confused the service. These somewhat extraordinary causes and others, operating together, brought about a great scarcity of ocean tonnage, and freight rates have gone up in all parts of the world. It has been absolutely impossible for the Government to get, even for its own purposes, for the transport of war supplies, vessels at anything like the proper time or at anything like reasonable rates. If I had had all the experts available,
I do not think I would have endeavoured very much during the past five months to regulate ocean freights. As to our main subsidized companies, we have been keeping in constant touch with them and, so far as possible, consulting with them in the matter of rates. So far as our subsidized ser-

vices from Montreal, Halifax and St. John are concerned, whilst the rates have increased, I do not think they will increase abnormally. Certainly they have not done so, compared with increases that have taken place in all parts of the world.


William Pugsley: I think that freights on lumber have been subjected to an increase of about 150 per cent.
Mr. 'SINCLAIR: There is another reason for the increase in freight rates upon lumber with which my hon. friend, perhaps, is not familiar. Under the system that prevails in the province of New Brunswick and in some of the Maritime provinces, lumber cargoes taken across to England invariably fall short in measurement. The man who undertakes to carry a cargo of lumber to Great Britain expects to incur a loss; that - is, when he reaches the other side he expects to find that he is a number of standards short of the quantity he was supposed to carry, and the lumber people on the other side compel him to bear that loss, which usually amounts to a very considerable sum. The consequence is that the difficulties which are encountered come back on the lumber people. No ship-owner wants to carry lumber 'across the water, because he knows that he will have to meet the loss occasioned by shortage when he lands on the other side. An attempt was made to rectify this a few years ago. I had the honour of introducing a measure amending the law so as to make the shipowner responsible only for the number of pieces delivered to him at the point of shipment, thus relieving him from any liability for loss after having reached the other side. It is impossible to
5 p.m. measure lumber when it is placed on board ship. It comes down the St. John or some other river in scows or schooners; the ship is always in a hurry to leave, and to put the scale on each board or plank would be an endless and practically impossible task. The consequence is that the shipowner has to take the measurements given him by the merchant and is victimized when he reaches the other side with his cargo. When the measure to which I have referred was introduced in the House, the lumbermen, especially of new, Brunswick, came here in great numbers and insisted upon the restoration of the old law, which obliged the ship-owner to sign for the number of feet stated by the owners to have been delivered to him. Consequently the law is the same as it was before; ships are scarce and rates high, and the lumber owners are themselves to blame for their present difficulties.
I would point out to the minister, too, that if he employs an expert, that expert should not only be engaged in ascertaining the proper rates, but should be able to report to the minister as to whether or not subsidies should be granted in particular instances. Many of the subsidies have been on the list for twenty or twenty-five years, and some of them should not be granted.
I have no hesitation in saying that subsidies are granted by this House that should not be granted and would not be granted by the minister if he knew all the facts.
I realize the importance of obtaining information as to freight rates, but the matter to which I now refer is also an important phase of the work of the department.
Department of Customs-salaries, 5323,375 ; contingencies, $20,000.


William Pugsley: Why, witn a declining revenue, is it necessary to increase the staff?


John Dowsley Reid: We are not increasing the staff. Last year we had a staff of 245 and this year we have the same number.


William Pugsley: There is an increase of nearly $8,000.


John Dowsley Reid: That is the statutory increase only. We have the same number of employees, but one clerk in the third division, subdivision A, is replaced by one in the third division subdivision B.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I suppose that it seems
rather harsh to dispense with some of these people, but the customs have fallen off enormously. Could not the minister shift some of his staff over to say the Militia Department? There must be many in his department who are practically idle.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course, quite a number
have gone to the war. Seventy-six employees of the Customs, inside and outside, have enlisted.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What ' is the rule
adopted with regard to employees of the Government who have volunteered for foreign service? Do they get their full salary?


John Dowsley Reid: So far as the customs officials are concerned, any who have asked to be allowed to go to the war and who have obtained permission from the department are paid their salaries in full.


William Pugsley: The reason I ask is that I have heard lately that quite a number of the employees of the Intercolonial Railway volunteered for service, and they make

the statement in the press that they were assured by the Intercolonial authorities that they would receive their full pay while on serivce. The have latterly been informed that the Minister of Railways has refused to carry out the arrangement that was made with them by the general manager. They feel very much aggrieved at the treatment they are receiving, which they claim is harsh and, apparently from the statement of the Minister of Customs, is entirely different from the treatment meted out to the employees of the branch of the service over which he presides. I think the same rule should apply to all the employees of the Government service. If an employee of the Department of Customs is allowed full pay while on foreign service, I do not see why an employee of another department, such as the Intercolonial, should not be treated in exactly the same way, more especially as they volunteered -under an assurance given to them by the general manager that they would receive full pay.


Mr. STANFIELD:: Was any assurance
given the first contingent?


William Pugsley: Personally I do not
know the details, but I saw a statement in the press that the Government had gone back on the promise made by the general manager.


John Dowsley Reid: As I understand, in all the departments of the Government, which would include the Intercolonial, all who asked and obtained permission to go to the front would receive their pay in full, and the same applies to the Intercolonial. It was necessary to ask them to apply for permission for the reason that in some cases it was very difficult to allow men to go. There must be some misunderstanding, and I am sure that the Minister of Railways will be able to explain the matter satisfactorily to my hon. friend when the railway estimates come up.


Mr. PARDEE:: What is the cause of the enormous increase in the number of clerks engaged in the customs during the past three years? The following questions and answers are supplied in a return brought down on the 10th of March, 1914:
Q. How many employees of the Federal Government of Canada, including all services and all departments, have been dismissed from October 10, 1911, to the present date?-A. 271 dismissals.
Q. How many customs employees have resigned?-A. 194 resignations.
Q. How many have deserted the service?- A. 11.

Q. How many deserters have been punished? *-A. None.
Q. How many new employees have been engaged or appointed by the present Government during that period?-A. 1,649.
And it is signed by John McDougald, the Commissioner of Customs. To take on 1,649 new employees there must have been an enormous increase in the work to be done. The most likely explanation is that the Government or the Customs Department have created vacancies in order to find places for 1,649 men who are looking for Government jobs. According to that return, the Minister of Customs has a remarkable knack of making jobs for friends. But the knack is not peculiar to him. The Minister of Railways and the Minister of Public Works, as a matter of fact, even outstripped him in this respect, but by the pleased look on the minister's face I see he has made up his mind to catch up to them. Seriously, it is an extraordinary state of affairs and requires some explanation. The work must have increased enormously to justify engaging all these new employees.


John Stanfield: Does that return include deaths and superannuations? There must have been quite a number of them in that time?


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: It is up to the department to furnish that information.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member for
Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) has partly explained the increase. Information was not asked for in the return as to the number of deaths. I can get the numbers, however. During the last two or three years there has been a great deal more to do in the customs on account of the increased revenue, but we never appoint a man at any place unless he is recommended by one of the inspectors. We increased the staff in the town of my hon. friend. Does he complain of that?


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: That is a very busy point.


John Dowsley Reid: And so are other places. New offices have had to be opened and stalls increased all over the Dominion. We are continually being urged to open new offices along the frontier and throughout the West. With the growth of settlement it is absolutely necessary to have more men, but no more are appointed than are actually required; in fact, there are places now along the frontier where men are urgently required.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How many did
you appoint at the request of members?


John Dowsley Reid: None, unless there were
vacancies or some new port was opened.


Mr. KYTE:: The minister has just stated that he made no appointments except on the report of the inspector. Two years ago I called to his attention the dismissal of a man in my constituency, and was told by the minister that he had been dismissed because there was nothing for him to do. The salary he enjoyed was $100. Another man was appointed for the same job of doing nothing at $250.


John Dowsley Reid: Not at the same place?


George William Kyte: At the same place. The minister at that time stated that he made the appointment upon the recommendation of the inspector, and I asked him to bring down the inspector's recommendation. The minister was unable to find any recommendation on his file, and said that the man must have been appointed on the verbal report of the Commissioner of Customs. The Commissioner of Customs could not possibly have had any intimate knowledge of the circumstances existing in that remote community, but nothing that I could do could elicit any further information from the minister. As a matter of fact the dismissal was made upon the recommendation of the Conservative candidate, and the new appointment was made on the same recommendation, but with this difference: whereas the former occupant of the office got $100 for doing nothing, the present one does nothing and gets $250 for it. The minister cannot get away from that. There must be thousands of such cases in Canada to account for the extraordinary increase , in salaries of Customs Department employees, and for the extraordinary number that have been appointed to take the place of those who have been dismissed.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is it customary to punish deserters from the Customs service?


John Dowsley Reid: We never have deserters.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: If they did desert, would you punish them?


John Dowsley Reid: We shall wait for a case.


William Pugsley: The minister has stated that a large number of additional employees have been put on by reason of the increased revenue. My hon. friend knows that the revenue has fallen off lately at least 25 per cent. Has there been any corresponding reduction in the number of employees? There must be less work for them to do.


John Dowsley Reid: Those 1,600 positions are not all new appointments; deaths and resignations account for some of them.


William Pugsley: How many?


John Dowsley Reid: I will get that information. Although the revenue has fallen off, at some places it has increased very much and we have had to take on new employees. Then the war came. I do not feel like dismissing these men immediately. I hope the war will not last so very long, and I hardly think it is fair to turn out men with families, -who have been for some time in their positions. While perhaps they have not as much to do as before the war, I believe we should keep them on until at least we see what the conditions will be later. I believe that when the war is over these men will all have as much to do as they had formerly. I have not dismissed any officials on account of the war, but in cases where the revenue of a port has decreased and where there have been resignations at other ports and vacancies caused by men going to the war, I have sent the men from the ports where business has decreased to take their places. I am continuing that practice.


Mr. COPP:: I understand the minister to say that he has paid the salaries to his officials who have gone on active sei'vice.


John Dowsley Reid: Instructions were given to
pay every such official his salary and if my hon. friend knows of a case in which that has not been done I should be glad if he would let me know.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have no information as to that with regard to the Customs Department. I would like to know why what applies to the Customs Department in that respect does not apply to other departments of the Government. I may state that the employees of the Intercolonial railway who have gone on active service have not been paid their salaries. Why are the men belonging to the Department of Customs who have gone to the front paid, while the employees of the Railway Department are not paid?


John Dowsley Reid: I am not in a position to answer for the Railway Department. The salaries of all Custom officers who have gone on active service have been paid from the time they left the service up to the present.


William Pugsley: Then, it is correct to say that in the Department of Customs ever

since the war broke out there has been no effort made to economize or reduce expenses?


John Dowsley Reid: We have tried to economize in every way we could, but in some cases the war as a matter of fact made more work for the officials. We have had to take extra precautions along the frontier. I have done everything to economize other than to dismiss permanent officials. I do not think the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugs-ley) would urge that I should dismiss wholesale the officials who have been employed for some time. I do not think the hon. gentleman would suggest that under present conditions I should dismiss officials at every port in the country.


William Pugsley: I would think that before the Finance -Minister of this Government came to Parliament to impose a very unusual and very heavy tax burden upon the people of this country, there should have been an honest effort made on the part of the different members of the Government to reduce expenses in all the departments, not only in the matter of public works but in the matter of salaries. Apparently, so far as we know at present, there has been no effort to do that, although the Government has resorted to every expedient to impose additional taxes on the people. With a declining revenue it seems to me there ought not to be and would not be nearly as much work to do in the Department of Customs as there was when there was an abounding revenue and when of course there would be need for more help.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the minister intend to make any reduction in the cost of administering his department, outside of the salaries of the officials ? The estimates of the department provide for $4,215,000, or an increase of $400,000 over last year, although the revenue this year will be very much reduced.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman is incorrect in saying that these estimates exceed the estimates of late year by $400,000. The estimates of last year were for $4,210,000, and this year the estimates amount to $4,215,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is an increase anyway. I am sure there could be some means found to reduce the expenditure of the Customs Department by $100,000 or even $200,000.


John Dowsley Reid: The increase of $5,000 in these estimates is an amount to be paid to the Department of Justice to be disbursed by it, and on account of secret preventive service. Owing to the war the secret service has been increased, and we are asking for $5,000 more. Outside of that amount we are simply asking -for the same estimates as last year. Of course it does not necessarily follow that we will expend the whole amount of these estimates. If the war keeps on and there are resignations or deaths, we will not replace with new men. I do not think it would be proper for me to decrease these estimates.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why not ?


John Dowsley Reid: I may require them. .


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister tell me later on how many employees there were at the ports of Montreal, Winnipeg, Halifax, Quebec and Toronto when he took office, and how many there were on the 1st of January this year ?
- Mr. REID: I will get the information later.


Charles Murphy: I would point out to my hon. friends on this side of the House that bad as is this return which they are discussing, it is only a partial return. So far as the Customs Department is concerned, the return is about a year old, being dated March, 1914. The Minister of Customs should give us a supplementary return -showing the state of affairs approximately to date before he proceeds with his estimates.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the increase in the number of employees in the Inside Service ?


John Dowsley Reid: No increase. We had 245 employees last year, and we are asking for the same number this year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many were there before my hon. friend took office ?


John Dowsley Reid: In the estimates for 1911-12, 198 were asked for. There has been an increase of 47 since then.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What was the revenue when my hon. friend took office and what is the revenue to-day ?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not the figures. The revenue last year was about $30,000,000 more than it was in 1911-12.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Upon what principle does the minister make promotions in posi-

tion and increases in salary in the outside service P I understand, of course, that the Civil Service Act furnishes machinery by which the minister makes promotions in the inside service. Does he receive a report from any official in his department, or is there any well-defined rule by which those promotions are made ?


John Dowsley Reid: As has been the practice for many years, the officials of the department prepare a statement for the minister showing the increases they would recommend in the outside service from one end of the Dominion to the other. It has been not only my custom, but that of my predecessor, to follow that practice very closely.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: An official of the department making a list of that kind would have some regard for the number of years of service of each officer, for the position which he occupied, and for the salary which he was then receiving. I would imagine that the official who would report to the minister would be an officer of the inside service who would be largely governed by the records of the department. There appears to be some peculiar method by which that official deals with officers in the otutside service. In the town from which I come we have many officers of the Department of Customs.


John Dowsley Reid: What town is that ?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The town of North
Sydney, a well-known town in the Maritime provinces. I am sorry that my hon. friend's geography has been so neglected. I find that by some beautiful instinct this inside official passes over the Grits and promotes the Tories in that town. I am rather suspicious that there must be some other influence than that of the inside official. I rather think that the inside official puts himself in touch with the Tory heelers in the town of North Sydney and finds out who are Grits and who are Tories, and that he promotes the Tory over the head of the poor Grit. Such has been glaringly the ease in the town of North Sydney lor the last few years. New men have been appointed at salaries four or five hundred dollars more than the old officials are receiving. That is unworthy of this country and unworthy of the department. The minister should inquire more closely into the knowledge which his inside officer has of these things and into the unfairness of this method of dealing with the officers of this Department.


John Dowsley Reid: As regards increases, I find that the statement which the official submits to me is very fair so far as both Liberal and Conservative officers are concerned. We have shown no favour, and I can hardly believe there is an hon. member on the other side who can say that we have not been treating all the officers, irrespective of politics, fairly as far as increases are concerned. I know that increases 'have been given to Liberals as well as to Conservatives in all the ports, including Sydney. The hon. member knows that. If he does not, I have a list of the olncials at Sydney and can show that they have received increases. Of course, there are officers whose salaries are at the maximum for the positions which they hold, and therefore we cannot give them further increases. I have, however, tried to give fair salaries where the salaries were small.
What happens in most of these Customs positions is, I suppose, whiat happened when my hon. friends opposite were in power; that is, if a vacancy occurs, and a person competent to fill it is appointed, that position is generally the one that he gets. That has been the policy of the Liberal party, and I do not see why it should not be the policy of this patty. I am willing to make promotions as far as possible, but if a vacancy occurs in the Customs Department, that is the vacancy the appointee is after, and that is the vacancy he should get if he is qualified to fill the position.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I do not wish to mention any names of officers. If the minister . will familiarize himself with the different names, he will find that some of the old officers are working at small salaries, and that others who have been appointed since the change of Government are getting large salaries and have been receiving their increases from year to year, while the older officers, appointed under the former Administration, are not receiving increases at all.


John Dowsley Reid: I will make inquiries. I have a list before me of the officers at North Sydney. There are four or five men there, and they all got increases last year. If these are not all the names, I shall be able to give them to the hon. member later. We gave increases to T. L. Brennan, David Edwards, E. F. Jackson and Angus Young.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Those are the Tory officials.


John Dowsley Reid: Are there any Liberal officials there?


Mr. McKENZIB:: Yes; but you will not find their names on the list of those who have received increases.


George William Kyte: I would like to ask the Minister in reference to a vacancy in the Customs office at Arichat. The preventive officer there, Captain Lawrence Gerrior, died nearly a year ago, The office has not been filled, and I would like to know if it is the intention of the minister to fill it.


John Dowsley Reid: 'Not at the present time. I seem to be in a rather awkward position, the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugs-ley) insisting that I shall reduce the staff and the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) insisting that I shall make appointments.


George William Kyte: I am not insisting at all, but I would like to know how long the minister will persist in his determination not to fill the office.


John Dowsley Reid: I will not fill it until the work requires an officer at that port. .


George William Kyte: And that will probably synchronize with the decision of the Tory patronage committee there as to an appointee. They suffer there from an embarrassment of riches-there are about twenty, I understand, applying for the office, backed by their several groups of the patronage committee. Is it because there is no work to do that the position is not filled?


John Dowsley Reid: I have decided not to fill it at the present time. We can get along at present without the services of an officer there.


George William Kyte: And unless there is evidence that the services of an officer there are necessary, the minister will not fill the position?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


George William Kyte: You know, we have had instances of men dismissed because there was nothing to do and others appointed at higher salaries to do that nothing.


Charles Murphy: The minister said some of the, expert officers of his department had gone to the Finance Department?


John Dowsley Reid: One man, Mr. Breadner. Mr. Breadner was brought here from Toronto and took a position in the Customs Department. But the Minister of Finance wanted his services in connection with that depart-

ment, and so Mr. Breadner was taken over by the Finance Department, and has ceased to be an officer of the Customs.


Charles Murphy: Is he the only one?


John Dowsley Reid: So far as I know.


Charles Murphy: His salary is not provided for in these estimates?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


Mr. CARROLL:: Are the officers on the revenue cutters on the coast under the jurisdiction of the Customs Department?


John Dowsley Reid: The naval cutter Margaret
was taken over by the Naval Service Department at the outbreak of the war and the ' Customs Department has nothing to do with her at the present time.


William F. Carroll: I refer particularly to the Alert, a vessel in the service on the coast of Cape Breton.


John Dowsley Reid: That is a small vessel, and she is still with the Customs.


William F. Carroll: I would like to bring to the attention of the minister, for his investigation, certain occurrences on the coast of Cape Breton last year during the time the Alert was in that vicinity. In September, I think it was, a large amount of contraband or smuggled goods was landed at Lingan from a vessel called the Mary. For several days before that, the revenue cutter Alert was in Lingan bay or harbour. The arrival of the Mary containing the smuggled goods synchronized with the departure of the Alert. Now, I am not making any charge, but simply stating a fact when I say that the supposition in that part of the country is that the Alert was called off duty in Lingan bay after having knowledge of the fact that the Mary had left St. Pierre with a load of smuggled liquor. The public in the vicinity of Lingan and New Waterford believe that she was called off by certain political heelers in Cape Breton for the purpose of enabling their friends to land these smuggled goods. Many of the smugglers, it is true, have been convicted and have paid heavy fines. I say I am making no charge, and I am sure no charge has been made against Mr. Angus Young, who is not an officer of the Alert, but an officer of the Customs at North Sydney who was looking after the case in Sydney when these parties were tried. I would like the minister and his department to investigate and investi-

gate thoroughly, the rumours that have been going around in that vicinity as to the negligence and incapacity of the captain, and particularly the evidence of his negligence and incapacity in allowing these contraband goods to he landed at Lingan.


John Dowsley Reid: This is the first intimation
I have had of this matter. I have just made inquiry of the commissioner, and he tells me that the parties were prosecuted, and that this vessel, the Mary, which is not worth very much, is under seizure. Until the officers reach a final decision in a case of seizure, the matter does not usually come before the minister. I shall certainly have the matter brought before the commissioner for investigation, and if anything has happened such as the hon. gentleman says, of course we cannot allow that. I think there must be some misunderstanding. The commissioner and the officials of the department have dealt with the matter. However, before we get through with my estimates, and at some future sitting of the committee, I will be in a position to discus's' the matter much better than I can now:


William F. Carroll: Did the minister say he would investigate it?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There were rather extraordinary things in connection with the landing of liquors at Lingan. To begin with, let me tell the minister, that the chief leader of the Tory party at that place has been found guilty of being the leader of this gang of smugglers. It so happens that this landing was made on a beautiful Sunday morning. And the extraordinary thing is that it happened that these goods were landed right at the door of the customs officer at that place. But early on Sunday morning, before seven o'clock, this customs officer was called away, forsooth, by the leading Tory heeler of that town, for a meeting at Glace Bay.


John Dowsley Reid: Can the hon. gentleman tell me the name of the officer?	[DOT]


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: His name is John
Burke. I am not saying he went away, but that he was called away by the chief Tory boss in that vicinity. The absence of the officer and of the Alert seems to synchronize strangely with the landing of the goods.	I am surprised
that the hon. minister has heard nothing of this matter. It took place on Sunday morning, at a time when the Alert had glided away and the customs officer had been carefully stowed away in Glace Bay. The chief performer of the Tory party has since been found guilty of being at the head of the gang.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be better able to discuss the matter when the item comes up for consideration.
At six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at 8 o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 29, respecting the Van Buren Bridge Company.-Mr. Michaud.
Bill No. 31, respecting the British Columbia Southern Railway Company.-Mr. Taylor.
Bill No. 32, to incorporate the Brulb, Grande Prairie and Peace River Railway Company.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 33, to confirm certain agreements made between the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company, the Georgian Bay and Seaboard Railway Cbmpany and the Campbellford, Lake Ontario and Western Railway Company.-Mr. Blain.
Bill No, 34, respecting the Manitoba and North Western Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Cash.
Bill No. 35, respecting the Niagara-Welland Power Company.-Mr. Blain.
Bill No. 36, to incorporate Northern Pacific and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Taylor.
Bill No. 37, respecting Pacific, Peace River and Athabasca Railway Company. -Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 38, respecting the Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company.-Mr. Taylor.

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Customs-salaries and contingent expenses of the several ports in the Dominion, including pay for overtime of officers, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $3,590,000.
['There have been a great many of those claims, and Judge Audette has investigated nearly all of them. He is going to Britisn Columbia in a very short time to dispose of the remaining ones in which he has not yet heard the evidence. That will wind up the hearing of the claims, and I understand he hopes to be able to make*a report dealing with the whole question some time- during the coming summer. The matter is getting to the point where it will be wound up very soon.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.\nThursday, February 18, 1915.']
John Dowsley Reid: We placed in the Estimates the same amount as for 1914-15, as we had the same number of employees.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What proportion of that is for salaries and what for contingent expenses?


John Dowsley Reid: I have a list here of the amounts spent at every port in Canada.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the vote be ex hausted at the end of this year?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Approximately how much will be spent on contingencies?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not separate figures showing that.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The boat service would not come within that item?


John Dowsley Reid: No. There is an item below for boats and cruisers.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Can you give us some idea of what' will come under this item besides salaries?


John Dowsley Reid: Rent, overtime of officers, expenses in connection with stationery, and so on.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there no way in which the minister could reduce this item by a million dollars or so? This item of $3,590,000 for salaries and contingent expenses is more than the total cost of Customs administration in 1913, in which year the total cost was $3,150,000.


John Dowsley Reid: The increase in salaries
brings the cost of administration up each year.	'


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But the total cost in
1912-	13 was 3,150,000; for 1915-16 you are asking for an amount greater than that, which seems pretty hard to understand.


John Dowsley Reid: The revenue was probably $25,000,000 or $30,000,000 more in 1914-15 than in 1911-12. Although the amount expended for the collection of the revenue was more, the percentage of the cost of collection was less. I have a statement showing the percentages for a number of years. In 1912-13 the cost was $274,000, and it was higher in
1913-	14.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Your revenue in 1912-13 was $135,000,000. It was less than that last year.


John Dowsley Reid: The revenue in 1912-13 was $115,630,000, and in 1911-12 $87,596,426.40. The increase in the number of officers and in salaries of course makes our expenditures greater. Now that the war is on there is a groat deal more work to do, although the revenue is less. For instance, we could not possibly reduce the staff at Halifax or

Quebec, or Montreal, or Toronto, where many of the extra officers are employed. I do not think any member of this House would ask us to dismiss these men in the winter, especially as their services will probably be required when navigation opens.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: You should never have laken them on.


John Dowsley Reid: I never took a man on unless he was recommended by the inspector or by the Commissioner or one of the officials of the Department. I was asked a question about Montreal. I never took on a man there unless he was recommended by the collector, Mr. White, or the surveyor, Mr. McLaughlin. I have always tried to keep the staff down.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Two good officers.


John Dowsley Reid: No better in Canada. Before dinner I was asked for a statement showing the total number of officers and the total salary in force on October 10, 1911, and on December 31, 1914, and the duty collected in those years. The figures are as follows:
	October	10, 1911.		
Officers.	Salary.	Duty.	Halifax. .	. . 78	$ 63,880	$ 1,772,806	64Quebec . .	. . 72	72,940	1,352,345	94Montreal.	. . 306	261,605	18,233.550	77Toronto..	. . 177	153,122	13,698,275	03Vancouver	.. 99	74,434	5,499,593	93December 31, 1914.	[DOT]	Officers.	Salary.	Duty.	Halifax. .	. . 114	$111,900	$ 2,221,696	86Quebec . .	. . S3	82.440	1,853,595	20Montreal.	. . 386	400,340	24,460,813	30Toronto. .	. . 229	238,180	18,866,881	27Vancouver	.. 157	172,850	7,416,514	49


Rodolphe Lemieux: There has been quite a growth in Halifax.


John Dowsley Reid: That is true, but I do hot
think the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) would say we have too many officials there.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I do not know
about that; I think I could say that. Will the minister tell us how much more it would cost to collect a revenue of one and a half million dollars than it would to collect a revenue of one and a quarter million dollars?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not got it down as fine as that. The total collections throughout the Dominion were taken and the ratio was 2.74 which was one of the lowest in the history of the department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister implement that statement as soon as possible with the Winnipeg figures?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall. The Winnipeg figures were overlooked. I will hand them to the hon. gentleman to-mOrrow.


Mr. LAW:: I understood the minister to say that within the last two years the salaries of Customs officials all over the Dominion have been increased. Has there been any increase of salary granted to Custom officials in the port of Yarmouth within the last few years?


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot answer that question now; I have not got it on the list.


Bowman Brown Law: I always thought Yarmouth was something of a place, but if the minister has not got it on his list he cannot think much about it.


John Dowsley Reid: It is a good port all right.


William F. Carroll: Have there been any recommendations from Cape Breton county for the appointment of customs officers at New Waterford?


John Dowsley Reid: There was a petition some time ago but no action was taken.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the minister appointed any new customs officers in North Cape Breton, and if so, where ?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not remember of any at the present time. If the hon. gentleman will give, me some more information on the point I may be able to answer him.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The question is fairly explicit. Since last winter has the minister opened any new customs offices in the county of Victoria or North Cape Breton, and if so where ? For example, has he opened a new customs office in Iona in Victoria county; what has been the revenue from this office feince it was opened, and how far is it from the nearest previously existing customs office ?


John Dowsley Reid: There has been an office opened at Iona, but what tWe revenue has been I cannot say; I shall send a state-irient of it to the hon. member.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is it not a fact that this new office is within a mile of another office. It is a very nice country settlement, of course, but usually a country settlement like that is served by one customs house. I understand that about half a mile away from this new customs house 15
is another. What was the urgent necessity for putting a new customs house there when there was one close by ?


John Dowsley Reid: Is it not a fact that the old customs house is on the other side of the lake ? I am told there is quite a revenue at that office and it was opened for the convenience of the people.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That remark of the minister would apply to two customs houses at every bridge in the country because one would be at one side of the river and the other would be at the other. This is a -mere narrow arm of the sea where there is a very excellent bridge travelled all the time, and the old office was at one end of the bridge and I understand political necessity made it necessary to open another office at the other end of the bridge. '


John Dowsley Reid: It may possibly be true that the old customs house was within half a mile or a mile of the new one, but it is of great convenience to the steamers plying in that locality. Sometimes we have to put these offices close together for the convenience of steamers which run on lakes or rivers so that we may have a preventive officer to clear them in and out, or they could not call at a particular place. As I understood it, if we did not have an officer at this point it would be very inconvenient. At all events, representations were made to. that effect and we opened an office for the convenience of the public and I suppose it is benefiting them.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This bridge to which
the minister refers is a drawbridge and the draw is at the end of the bridge where the old customs office is. For any vessel that wants to enter there, the Government wharf is at the draw end of the bridge. There the vessels had every convenience necessary to depart or enter, as they might deem advisable. On the end where the minister has put his new custom house, there is no draw at all and no vessels go there in the winter time. No vessels will ever go there, so that the building is absolutely away from the market. I do not grudge the people of Iona the convenience of a customs house if it is to be of any use; but I claim that it was put in that- position for a political necessity, to meet a political emergency. Let the minister not try to defend it on any commercial principle whatever.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I understand from the minister's remarks that throughout the



country- there have been general increases in the salaries of the customs officials. On what basis have these increases been made? Have they been made on the basis of length of service? For instance, in any particular customs office there are the collector, the assistant collector and a number of clerks and appraisers. Do the collector and the assistant collector get stated increases by way of an added percentage each year, and does the same rule apply to the clerks and appraisers and under clerks in each office?
Mr. RE'ID: I explained this matter just before recess. The hon. member will understand that in the inside service the statute provides for certain increases'which go into effect at the end of each year. So far as the outside service is concerned, it has been the general rule for the Minister of Customs to ask for a certain amount to be distributed amongst the officers through-but the whole Dominion. Whatever that amount may be, the officials of the department divide it up as best they can amongst those whom they think are deserving of it. The inspector reports to the commissioner tne efficiency of each officer, and the report is generally accepted by the minister. It has been not only my custom but that of my predecessor to follow that report closely. Of course, there are many cases where men are at their maximum for the positions which they hold, and they sometimes complain because they are not receiving increases when others are. For instance, if the hon. member will look over the list of salaries, he will find that landing waiters in Ontario and Quebec receive between $800 and $900 per annum; but that many of them have from $200 to $350 for overtime, so that they make very good salaries. These salaries are considered about the maximum in the eastern provinces. In the western provinces, the landing waiters are paid $100 or $150 more. When the landing waiters reach that salary, the increases do not come as fast as they do in the case of other officers. Therefore, when a landing waiter is receiving a salary of $900, he generally has it supplemented by $200 or $300 for overtime. The clerks are supposed to hold higher, positions and they receive higher salaries than the landjng waiters, but they do not receive overtime. I would like to see the outside service on the same basis as the inside so that no fault could be found. My officials and I have tried to divide up the salaries in such a way that

very little fault can be found in any way and especially so far as politics is concerned.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: On what basis does the minister allow the extra amount for overtime? A man might be able to do his work without overtime.


John Dowsley Reid: The men are paid at the rate of thirty cents an hour for all their time over ten hours. They must get a certificate from the collector or the surveyor that the work has actually been performed. The surveyor in a large port like Montreal has charge of the outside work. In smaller ports, where there are only half a dozen officers, they may be working at a railway station or at a steamboat landing, and it is easy to have a check on work of that nature. An officer might have to be on duty all the time. In my own town, a ferry boat runs until twelve o'clock at night and an officer must be on duty until that time. The men divide up that time:	One man will be on
duty for a couple of hours and another for a . couple of hours each night. At a railway station they have to attend certain trains, such as express trains, coming in, and it is very easy for the collector to keep a check on the men's time. I do not think there would be much loss.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the estimate of the cost of collection of customs for the province of New Brunswick for the year 1914-15?


John Dowsley Reid: I have only the general
figures. I have not Nova Scotia separately.	,


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Before preparing his
Estimates for 1915-16, did the minister go into the matter with his officers and make any effort to reduce them by say two million dollars or by one dollar?


John Dowsley Reid: My officials tell me that
they have as much work with the war now on as they had prior to the war; in fact, a great deal more work has been thrown on the Customs Department on account of the war. The men are all busy and they will use the whole vote of last year. With that information before me, I do not see how I would be justified in asking for a smaller vote than that of last year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then the minister has not endeavoured to reduce the Estimates?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, I took the matter up
with the officials of my department and that is the information they gave me, and I must rely upon the officials who understand the situation thoroughly.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The minister has said
that on account of the war the work has been so heavy. I am curious to know how the war has increased the work of the customs officers seeing that the revenues have declined.


John Dowsley Reid: The war has made it necessary for us to have many more officers watching vessels coming in and going out. We have to watch the imports and exports much more closely because of the prohibitions made necessary by the war. Take it, for instance, at Bridgeburg, where many cars cross-we have to have officials there to watch very closely. The Commissioner of Customs tells me that the officials are busier than they have ever been though the revenue has decreased.


William Melville Martin: How many officers have been appointed in the Customs Department since the day when war was declared, the 4th of August?


John Dowsley Reid: As I said before dinner, we designed to make no new appointments at all. A number of our officers went to the war and their places have not been filled, the others being used as relieving officers until these men return. When vacancies occur, we do not fill them unless it is absolutely necessary. Therefore, the new appointments are practically nil.


John Stanfield: Before dinner I asked about a return showing how many deaths and superannuations had taken place since 1911. Can the minister give me that information now?


John Dowsley Reid: Since that return we have
had 39 deaths, 16 superannuations, 43 dismissals and 45 resignations.


John Stanfield: But can the minister
give me the figures since 1911?


John Dowsley Reid: I haven't it, but will get it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Were these voluntary resignations?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Bowman Brown Law: Will the minister please state what are the duties of these special officers?


John Dowsley Reid: These officers are for special preventive service. When we receive complaints of smuggling or learn that smuggling is suspected, these officers are detailed to look up the case. Also they are supposed to travel around and learn if smuggling is going on. Such officers are needed throughout the Dominion. We have two 15i
or three in Nova Scotia, two in New Brunswick, two or more in Quebec, and so with the other provinces.


Bowman Brown Law: In some cases, I think thet
duty of these officers consists mainly in _ collecting their pay at the end of the months


William F. Carroll: Last session I called
attention to the lack of a customs officer at New Waterford. Has the hon. gentleman changed his mind since then, and does he intend to appoint a collector of customs there?


John Dowsley Reid: We have not decided. At present I am trying to keep down the expense as much as possible, and to avoid the appointment of more officers while the war is on.


William F. Carroll: I am sorry the hon. gentleman has not succeeded in keeping down the expense. We do not see much difference in the expenditure except that the estimate of expenditure for next year shows an increase. I do not think there is another town of the size of New Waterford in the whole Dominion of Canada without a customs officer. The minister may not know it, but this is a town of about 8,000 people. The custom house is at a point three miles away, where there are not more than thirty families. The minister promised to give this consideration last year, but as no consideration seems to have been given, I call it to his attention again. If he feels that he cannot make a new appointment in New Waterford, I would suggest to him that he move the custom house from where it is now into New Waterford, and thus serve the bulk of the people in that locality.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be glad to look into the matter again. But the hon. gentleman admits that we have a custom house within three miles of New Waterford. There are many places quite as large, yet with no custom house nearer than three miles.


William F. Carroll: But I suggest that the minister put the custom house where it will serve the people, and not compel the seven or eight thousand of New Waterford to go to a custom house located where there is a population of about one hundred.


John Dowsley Reid: I did not understand the matter in that way before. I shall be glad to look into it and discuss it with the hon. gentleman.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I see that the customs revenue of Arichat in 1914 was $438.31, while the expense of collection was

$2,588.27. In Shelburne the customs duties were $1,641.51, and the expenses of collection, $1,966.39. There should be some explanation of the great cost of collecting so small an amount of revenue.


John Dowsley Reid: Arichat is a chief port with several outports under it-D'Escousse,' Fourchu, Irish Cove, L'Ardoise, Petit de Grat, Lennox Perry, River Bourgeoise, St. Peter's and West Arichat. The officers at these points all act as preventive officers. The hon. gentleman will see the need of having these officers when I tell him that 1,569 coasting vessels and 92 sea-going vessels arrived, and 1,556 coasting vessels and 99 sea-going vessels departed. It is necessary, therefore, to have these officers to look after the clearing of vessels at these several ports.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It was pointed out this afternoon by the member for Richmond that at the port of Red Islands a man in the customs service was dismissed because there was nothing for him to do, and a little later another person was appointed to the same office at a salary of $250.


John Dowsley Reid: But Irish Cove is one place and Red Islands another.


George William Kyte: I have endeavoured to teach my hon. friend a little geography, but so far my efforts have been entirely unsuccessful. These places are in the same parish. Irish Cove is a couple of miles from Red Islands, but no business is done at Irish Cove that could not be properly attended to by the collector at Red Islands. Irish Cove is in the same district as Red Islands, but in another part of it.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think there is any dispute between the hon. member and myself in that respect. These places may be in the same parish, but Irish Cove is just as different from Red Islands as Ottawa is from a place in Carleton county ten miles distant. [DOT]	*


George William Kyte: So is Sparks street different from Wellington street, but the hon. minister would not propose appointing collectors of customs on each of these streets. These places are in the same district; the same people are served in either case.


John Dowsley Reid: I am sorry I cannot agree with the hon. gentleman.


William Melville Martin: In many parts of the Maritime Provinces there seem to be a number of customs offices in the same

district, within two or three miles of each other. In western Canada it is quite unusual to see customs offices or ports of entry outside the large centres. I have intended to bring to the minister's attention the question of establishing another port of entry on the international boundary midway between Regina and Moose jaw.	There are two ports of
entry in that district, one called Big Muddy iand the other Wood Mountain, where there has been a customs office and a station of the North West Mounted Police for many years. The distance between these ports is seventy or eighty miles, and in that district there are a large number of settlers. I do not know whether the minister or any one in his department has had any correspondence in regard to the matter, but I have had correspondence, both before I left Regina and since I came to the city of Ottawa, with regard to the question of establishing a port of entry at a little place called Overland.


John Dowsley Reid: Does any railway pass
through that place?


William Melville Martin: No railway passes through Overland, but the Maryfield extension of the Canadian Northern, running west from a place called Goodwater, south of Wey-burn, runs north of this particular settlement. The people who live in that settlement are about thirty miles from Wood Mountain, the port of entry to the west, and about the same distance from Big Muddy, the port of entry to the east. There are no towns nearer these people than those on the Soo line, which is forty or fifty miles from where they reside. There is no town of any consequence there at all, and any proposed port of entry would be in the same class as that established at Wood Mountain many years ago and that which in recent years has been established at Big Muddy. It would be a matter of great convenience to the people of this district if they had a port of entry nearer their places of residence than those which they have at the present time.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know whether any application for a port of entry at Overland has been received, but I shall be glad to look the matter up. I agree with
9 p.m. the hon. member that along the international boundary there should be more customs offices; I think it is necessary not only for the convenience of the public, but in the interests of the revenue as well. I will discuss the matter with my officers. I may point out that it
r

is necessary to have at these ports of entry an official who can act in the capacity of veterinary surgeon and quarantine officer. I am advised that the Minister of Agriculture has found great difficulty in getting veterinary surgeons to act as quarantine officers at those places. I have been willing to open offices along the frontier if persons can be obtained to act in that capacity, and I shall be glad to do so now. The difficulty is that it is hard to get a man to take up his residence along the frontier in districts where there are practically no settlements. Only the other day I took up with the Minister of Agriculture the matter of locating at some place along the international boundary a veterinary surgeon who was mentioned as wanting a position. The hon. member can understand how awkward it would be if a settler should come across with his cattle and horses and find he could not get them through on account of their being no quarantine officer to inspect them. It is, perhaps, on account of that difficulty that I have not been able to open as many offices along the boundary line as I would like to have opened.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Shortly after the present Government came into power a man named Cavanagh of the customs service at New Glasgow, Pictou county, N.S., was removed from office. Will the minister tell me what salary he was getting, and the grounds for his removal?


John Dowsley Reid: My deputy does not remember the circumstances in connection with the matter; I will get the information for the hon. gentleman.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Can the minister inform me whether there are two men named respectively Gillies and Cameron in the customs service at New Glasgow, and what are their salaries?


John Dowsley Reid: Gillies, $1,000; D. A. Cameron, resigned.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was anybody appointed in his place?


John Dowsley Reid: A man named Bailey, I
think, was appointed in his place.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How much does he get?


John Dowsley Reid: $900, the same salary as that received by Mr. Cameron.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the list state how much Mr. Cavanagh received?


John Dowsley Reid: He was merely an acting
officer. I have not the information, but I
shall be glad to get the papers and send them to the hon. gentleman.
Mr. MeKENZIE: Has the department any building rented at the port of North Sydney besides the regular customs house; if so, from whom is the building rented, and at what rental?


John Dowsley Reid: We rent a warehouse at North Sydney. I cannot say at the moment what the rent is.
Mr. MeKENZIE:	I am informed that
there is a middleman in this case. The department required additional room and instead of the Government renting direct from the owner of the building two good Tories rented the building and sublet to the Government so that the Government are paying twice as much for the building as if they rented it direct. The minister will find that the people from whom he is renting are not the owners, they are not in business and have nothing to do with the building. The Government is paying them a subsidy because they are Tories and because they are middlemen in the handling of this little graft.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall be very glad to look into this matter and shall be very much surprised to find if it is the case. If I find any middleman I will-
Mr. MeKENZIE: I shall be equally surprised if you find that it is the case.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What will the
minister do if he finds the facts as stated?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall wait until I see if
these are the facts.


William Melville Martin: I have had some correspondence with the Department of Customs extending over two years on the question of the importation of certain horses. The department wrote me some time ago that, as far as they are concerned, the question was closed. At the same time I do not think it will do any harm to state briefly the facts. A man named Underwood, a farmer not very far from where I live, imported nineteen horses from some portion of the United States. He purchased the horses and brought them into the country by means of certain certificates and seven of these certificates were discovered on investigation by the Customs Department to have been false certificates. The reason for holding an .investigation was that some of the horses were quarantined by a Govern-

ment veterinary in the West for dourine which caused an' investigation into where they came from and the discovery of the false certificates. I am not concerned with the vendor of the horses in the United States. Underwood brought the horses into Canada, he paid for them to the vendor in the United States and filed declarations with the department that, as far as he was concerned, he had acted in good faith. I believe that the purchaser of these horses did act in absolute good faith and why he should have been punished by the imposition of double duty on him I have never been able to make out. I have taken that up with the department for two years but ceased doing so when I was informed that the matter had been finally closed. I cannot help representing to the minister that this man suffered an injury which he did not deserve. He acted in good faith and should not have been charged $2,200 by way of double duty owing to the false certificates under which the horses were brought into Canada, he having no part in the fraud.


John Dowsley Reid: The horses were fraudulently imported into this country.


William Melville Martin: Not by this man.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member agrees that they came in fraudulently.


William Melville Martin: M do not so far as he was concerned.


John Dowsley Reid: The man referred to claims
that he had nothing to do with the fraud, but at the same time we follow the goods. We followed the horses in this case and held them as responsible for this duty. In cases of this kind these matters are always dealt with by the regular seizing officers of the staff, and in this case double duty was imposed. That is one of the smallest fines that is imposed on fraudulent importations, and we could not possibly let men off in such cases, because if we accepted such pleas as this man's, then in every case of fraudulent importation a similar claim would be made and we feel that in business of this kind if we find the importer is not really the guilty man we impose only double duty. In other cases we would take the whole goods, simply take the horses and dispose of them and fine him the penalty of tire total value. In this ease while he may think it is a hardship, I feel that he got off as reasonably as many others have in similar positions.
[Mr W, M. Martin.]


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the minister estimate his customs and excise revenue will be at the end of March next?


John Dowsley Reid: I will let the hon. member
have that to-morrow morning.
Customs-to provide for expenses of maintenance of revenue cruisers and for preventive service, $100,000.


John Dowsley Reid: That will only be used in
case we get our other cruiser back again from the Naval Service. This is a new cruiser, the Margaret. Of course, this vote may be used if we have to get another boat to take the place of the Margaret during the continuance of the war.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What steamer does the minister use in the Halifax customs service?


John Dowsley Reid: A little gasoline launch takes the officer out to the steamer.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the boat satisfactory?


John Dowsley Reid: We have had no complaints about it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I understand that no provision was made for the engineer to get down to the engine room.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does this cover the Alert? I have a protest to register against the voting of money for the Alert and her crew. The minister will remember that about this time last year we had a local election in the county of Victoria, in the province of Nova Scotia, and that I charged the minister with sending this Alert down the coast with political agents and agencies with them, such as bobze and the other machinery that was brought to bear in the county of Victoria. The minister's friend the Tory candidate was elected on that occasion, but we have succeeded in unseating him since. That is what the minister does with the money we vote for him, and I am warning the people of Canada, particularly those in public life, that here we are voting money to be used by Tory candidates for Tory purposes throughout the length and breadth of this Dominion with the consent of the minister. The minister's chief agent on that boat was blacklisted by a judge of the Supreme Court, after having been found guilty of all the crimes in the calendar in connection with that trip. We are now voting money to pay for that trip, and I am registering my protest and saying that we should not spend money in that way. The minister should at least find out that the proper kind of booze is kept, for

one of the strong speakers for the Tory party on that occasion complained that the booze in some out-of-the-way place where he was landed was rotten. That is the message which he sent over the public wires, which were put at his disposal. Not only did the Government put the Alert at the disposal of this man, but the telegraph line as well. Everything that the Government had in the county of Victoria in the shape of Government appliances was put at the disposal of the head man of the Conservative party in Nova Scotia, who was blacklisted by Judge Russell of the Supreme Court along with twenty-three others of my hon. friend's friends.


John Dowsley Reid: I think the hon. member is hardly fair. He will remember that I never heard about this trip until the matter came up in Parliament, and that I then immediately suspended the officer and the use of the boat. I had nothing to do with it, and I think the hon. member is unfair when he says that I sent this boat down. An investigation was held at the time, but there was no evidence to show that there was any booze on the boat on that trip. The hon. member also says the judge blacklisted twenty three friends of mine. Whether they are friends of mine or not I cannot say, but certainly they were not customs officers. I do not think any Government official was blacklisted.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Let me tell my hon. friend that the customs officer appointed at Iona, fresh from his hands, was blacklisted.


John Dowsley Reid: I am glad to get the information; I never heard of it before. Was he a customs officer at that time?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Yes, with his honours fresh upon him.	*


John Dowsley Reid: I will make inquiries about that.
Customs

Amounts to be paid to Department of Justice to be disbursed by and accounted for to it, for secret preventive service, $10,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That is an increase?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, on account of the war.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What is the money spent on?


John Dowsley Reid: We have to give information to the United States and to other countries in regard to export stuff.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: If this item passes the minister will allow us to discuss any customs matter on a subsequent item?


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly.
Department of the Interior-salaries, $1,143,567.50.


Mr. ROCHE:: That is just the same as last year, except for the statutory salary increases.
%
Dominions lands and parks-salaries of the outside service, $465,000.


William Melville Martin: According to a
return brought down, up to March 10, 1914, there was a very large increase shown in the number of employees in the Interior Department, both in -the inside and the outside service. I have no doubt that since that date, owing to peculiar conditions existing in certain parts of the West, there has been a further increase, and as to a portion of that increase I have no criticism to offer. Up to March 10, 1914, the return showed 301 dismissals in the Department of the Interior and 1,649 new appointments. In certain parts of western Canada with which I am familiar, I believe that a large number of these new appointments were absolutely useless to the public service. I can give an instance of four homestead inspectors being employed by the present Government in the Dominion lands office in my own city, where there is not work for one. The late Government [DOT]for twelve or thirteen years only employed two homestead inspectors there and now I believe there are four, whereas any one who knows, the district knows that the homesteads are practically exhausted in that vicinity and one homestead inspector could easily do the work. I am sure the present Minister of the Interior does not want to waste the public money by keeping an unnecessary number of homestead inspectors sitting around doing nothing. A couple of years ago a man named Sipes -was employed as homestead inspector in the country tributary to Regina, and according to an answer given me by the Minister of the Interior some two years ago, for the four or five months that he was so employed he did not make a single homestead inspection. I know that the present Minister of the Interior has too much respect for his own reputation to waste, the public money in this way. The homestead office in Regina is just an instance of what is going on in other parts of Western Canada. The appointment of 1,649 new officials in the last three years is due to the fact that the present Government has largely increased the number of officials operating in the Department of the Interior in western Canada. Homestead work is decreasing, 'and immigration during the past eighteen months, even before the war,

as we all know, amounted to almost nothing, so that this enormous number of officials should not be needed. I do not wish to impute any motives to the present Minister of the Interior, but surely there must be some reason for keeping men in these various places in western Canada, doing practically nothing.


William Roche: In addition to what the
Solicitor-General explained before recess, as to appointments to fill vacancies by resignations and deaths, etc., there is something further to be said. I understand that Professor Shortt used an expression in an address in the People's Forum on Sunday night, which was calculated to leave an entirely erroneous impression on the public mind. In my own department the appointments probably numbered twice the number of dismissals, but that included not only the appointees referred to by the Solicitor-General, but a very large number of temporary employees. For example, the office of the Surveyor-General employs a large number of men for six months in the year when their services are dispensed with, and next year there will be forty or fifty new men engaged who, while only temporary employees, are reckoned as new appointees by the Government. The Interior Department has nearly 900 employees, and up to last year we have had as many as 140 temporary employees engaged for six months in the year, as the Civil Service Act will not allow us to retain the services of these temporary employees for a longer period. Professor Shortt not having explained this situation, his remarks have left an erroneous impression on the public mind. In reference to the homestead inspectors, I understand that some of these gentlemen have been transferred to other districts. An additional reason why there have been more homestead inspectors appointed is that we have been trying to	afford greater convenience to the farmers of the country who enter for their lands, and who ordinarily would have to pay a good deal of money and spend a good deal of their time travelling long distances to the nearest subagency, for their patent, by instructing many of our homestead inspectors to visit those farmers on their farms. This is a great convenience to the farming community, and I have many requests from the settlers that it should be continued.


William Melville Martin: That was done
before.


William Roche: Not nearly to the same extent as it has been done for the last eighteen months. It may be that there are more employees now in some of these offices than the work of the offices would warrant, but the hon. gentleman knows that in these hard times it is not very nice to dismiss employees, unless you have ground for it, and we do not wish to impose any undue hardships upon these men. No person has ever complained to me before with regard to the land office at Regina. I understand there are four officials in that office at present. It is true that there are not many homesteads remaining in that district, but at the same time there is considerable work in the office. The present land agent there has gone to the front and somebody had to take his place. At all events, I can assure my hon. friend from Regina that I certainly have not appointed as many officials as I have had demands for appointments.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the minister estimate that the revenue for Dominion lands will be for this year ?


William Roche: It will not be as much as last year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Let me put a few facts before the minister in Tegard to the cost of administering this branch of his department. In 1910-11 there was a revenue of S3,108,000 from Dominion lands, and the cost of administration was $1,804,000. In 1913-14 the cost of administration had risen to $3,286,000, or nearly $1,500,000 of an increase in three or four years. The minister estimated the administration cost for 1915-16 as over $4,000,000, with a revenue less than in 1914-15. How does the minister explain this ? We are receiving less money from Dominion lands than we did three or four years agp and the cost of the administration has increased between $2,000,000 and $3,000,000.


William Roche: I understand that heretofore, in the years which the hon. gentleman first quoted, there was one special item of Dominion lands alone. Now we have several branches included under the one vote.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I do not think that was true in 1910-11.


William Roche: For instance, the Parks branch.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That was in 1910-11.


William Roche: No, it was under the item of miscellaneous.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How much does that amount to ?


William Roche: The estimate for the Parks branch 'for this year is considerably below what it was last year-$586,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister give me the following information to-morrow or the next day by letter or otherwise, namely, the estimated revenue and expenditures for 1914-15 for Dominion lands, immigration and Indian Affairs ?


William Roche: Yes.


Mr. BOULAY:: I wish to refer to a matter which I drew to the attention of the minister last year, concerning the immigration inspectors working on the trains in the province of Quebec. I then informed the minister that of eighteen men appointed as immigration officers eleven could not speak a word of French, and I said it was not fair to French-Cana-dians passing the boundary line on their way back from the United States to be questioned in a language which most of them could not understand. The minister promised me then that he would look into the matter. I would like to know if anything has been done to improve that condition, because some of those inspectors go so far as to be very impolite to those who cannot understand them in English. I myself was a victim on one occasion. This situation was not created by the Conservative party, but I would like to know from the minister if anything has been done to give protection in some way to our fellow citizens when they cross the border on their way back from the United States.


William Roche: That matter more properly comes in under the Immigration vote, and I will have what information my hon. friend desires when that vote comes up. I have not had any complaints that I am aware of in regard to having too many officials who do not understand the French language; but I must admit that I have had quite a few complaints from other quarters in regard to officials in the province of Quebec, notably at the port of Quebec, because they did not understand the English language sufficiently, and it was stated that this condition had prevailed for a good many years. It may be true there are some border inspectors, notably in the Eastern Townships,
who are not very conversant with the French language, and I will make inquiries into the matter. I am, however, given to understand that there is a fair proportion who do understand it.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: What is the policy of the department in regard to members of the Outside Service who enlist? Are there salaries kept on in full?


William Roche: Yes, by Order in Council passed last fall.
Dominion lands and parks contingencies, advertising, etc., $300,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Anything can come under contingencies. In a manufacturing business an employer would sack a clerk who put in such an item. What does it mean?


William Roche: That has been the custom from time immemorial.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The minister ought to
change such a bad practice.


William Roche: This refers to the expenses of officials, such as homestead inspectors, including the purchase of their repairing outfits, harness, etc. It also includes the. expenses of timber inspectors and of inspectors of ranches; 26 Dominion lands and Crown timber agencies; offices of the inspectors of the Dominion lands and Crown timber agencies; payment of telegrams, telephones, commission, postage, subagents, clerical assistance of a temporary nature, janitor service, and so on; printing, stationery, advertising and miscellaneous, such as express charges, freight, and so on.
Protection of timber, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Northwest Territories, and the Railway Belt in British Columbia; tree culture in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and inspection and management of forest reserves, $750,000.


James McCrie Douglas: There is an increase
here; what is the explanation?


William Roche: Hon. members will recollect that last session we formed a number of new forest reserves in the northern portion of Alberta and Saskatchewan. A large part of the increase is made necessary by the work of organisation of those reserves. There is also an increase in connection with tree planting. This covers the work of distributing trees for planting on farms, which work is steadily increasing. This additional amount is asked for to develop the new nursery station at Saskatoon, established last year.


James McCrie Douglas: Are the trees got at the
experimental farm at Lacombe?


William Roche: No, I think mainly from the nursery station at Indian Head. [DOT]


James McCrie Douglas: This is the same policy that has been carried out for years?


William Roche: Yes.


James McCrie Douglas: As to re-forestation, is
anything being done along that line?


William Roche: Yes.
Protection of reindeer herd, $3,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What about this?


William Roche: I am sorry to say that the history of our reindeer work has not been very satisfactory. But probably we shall do better in the future, because of what has been learned. Thirty-three reindeer were taken from Labrador, of which seven died on the way. The first- season they were there flies stampeded them, and some of them did not recover. The survivors have been removed to a better part of the country where they are not likely to be so troubled with flies, and our officers have expressed the opinion that they are more likely to live.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why do you want to spend $3,000 on half a dozen reindeer?


William Roche: There were thirty-three
reindeer, though there are only nine left. They have a great many of them in Alaska and find them very useful.	.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They make money out
of them there.


William Roche: I hope that some day we.
shall develop the industry so as to make money out of it too.


James McCrie Douglas: What do you do for this money?


William Roche: We have to supply a certain amount of attendance for the reindeer. We have herders whose salaries have to be paid.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: How many?


William Roche: We had originally one
herder and two assistants, but there is only one assistant now.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Better tie the reindeer
up than have two herders for nine deer.
To pay expenses connected with water-power investigations and reports in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Railway Belt in British Columbia, $194,000.


William Melville Martin: What portion of
this grant, if any, is being spent in connection with the Saskatchewan river and on what water-power?


William Roche: I cannot give the facts in finite such detail as that. The whole expenditure is in the prairie provinces, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan-$2o 000 in Saskatchewan. The vote includes a considerable expenditure in connection with the head office at Ottawa. The offices are carrying on a good deal of work in con

nection with small water-powers, getting information for those who wish to develop them. My information from the superintendent of the branch is that they have been doing a great deal of useful work during the past two years and hope to continue it. They are engaged in a work which they think it would be wrong policy for us now to drop. Therefore, the superintendent recommended to me the securing of a vote for this amount This is one of the only two items that are increased in the Department of the Interior.


William Melville Martin: I wish to find out how
much of this money is being spent in connection with the supposed diversion of the Saskatchewan river or the taking of water from that river. Is any part of this money to be spent in connection with taking water from the Saskatchewan and diverting it through portions of the country south of that river?


William Roche: There is an item of $17,000 in connection with the storage in the Saskatchewan basin.


William Melville Martin: What has been done in
connection with that scheme? And is it the intention of the Government to actually take water from the Saskatchewan and distribute it in the surrounding country?


William Roche: A delegation from Prince Albert made requests of the department on this subject about eighteen months ago. I remember that several gentlemen waited upon myself on my western tour in 1913. As a result of that delegation an investigation was authorized with a view to improving, if possible, the low water conditions in the river and placing the municipal plant of Prince Albert at Lacolle in a more satisfactory position for the production of power. The future of hydro-electric development along the Saskatchewan river is largely dependent on the storage facilities which may be available throughout the basin. The importance of this question to the industrial life of the prairie is such that it

must receive immediate and energetic attention. The great demand for cheap power throughout the West makes it necessary that every possible effort be put forth to secure the same, and the storage investigations now going on have in view the best methods of securing satisfactory results from hydro-electric development. This appropriation will enable us to carry on the investigation which we have been conducting during the past year.


William Melville Martin: Do I understand from the minister that this item of |17,000 has only to do with the matter of the investigation of the power contained in the Saskatchewan river? For the last few years requests have been made by the city of Prince Albert to the Government to grant them some assistance in respect of obtaining some assistance for the development of iLacolle Falls up to the present time,
I believe, without avail. I am scarcely able to gather from the minister, however, whether this $17,000, which includes all the money voted for the purpose of investigating water schemes along the Saskatchewan river, is to be devoted entirely to the development of Lacolle falls for the benefit of the city of Prince Albert, or whether it has anything to do with the distribution of water for domestic purposes to the people who reside south and east of the Saskatchewan river.


William Roche: It is not at all confined to the particular item to which the hon. gentleman has referred. It is for surveys and investigations all along the Saskatchewan river, in what is known as the Saskatchewan basin.


William Melville Martin: I do not wish to be unduly persistent about this matter, but in the province in which I reside we have been led to beiieve that the Government had on foot a tremendous scheme having in view the supplying of pure water to the cities of Moosejaw and Regina and to the rural inhabitants of the adjoining country by diverting water from the Saskatchewan river and bringing it down through Buffalo lake to the southeastern part of the province. In a section of the country where water is scarcer than it is in the eastern provinces, it is important that steps be taken to secure an adequate supply of pure water. As I say, we have been led to believe that the Government has had this scheme in view, with the object of getting
rid of the question of the scarcity of water in the province of Saskatchewan for all time to come.


William Roche: I may say that there is no provision in these Estimates for an expenditure such as the hon. gentleman has mentioned. We think it is not a suitable time to launch out on such an extensive enterprise.


William Melville Martin: Does the minister consider that it would not be a proper expenditure?


William Roche: No, I say this is not the proper time to incur it.


William Melville Martin: I suppose it is the view of the minister that it is all right to spend the money somewhere else, but that it is not the proper time to spend the money there.


Mr. OLIVER:: This item is very largely increased this year. It is an item that provides for examination and exploration, which examination and exploration can not be turned to actual account without a vast future expenditure of money. It seems to me that if we are in a condition of financial stringency which precludes the probability of any of these large expenditures being carried forward within a short time, these processes of examination and exploration might very well be slackened off for the present or for a year or two, instead of being increased as they have been. I do not wish to make the criticism in any factious spirit, but, having regard to prevailing conditions, and especially to the financial situation, I take the ground that this is an item which might very well be reduced at this session without throwing any discredit upon the general purposes that the Government has in view, and without affecting the ultimate carrying out of these objects. But, inasmuch as the giving effect to the results of these examinations or explorations must involve a vast expenditure of money, which money is not likely to be available, the preliminary expenditures might be postponed for the time being, or reduced rather than increased.


William Roche: A special staff of engineers is engaged on this work. The hon. gentleman will realize the difficulties which would arise if we dismissed the staff and re-engaged later persons who possibly would not be so conversant with the work. Having set out to do this work, we thought it better to continue it, and we have kept the engineers together. This item covers not only the expenses of surveys, but several sub-items as well, such as: publishing reports in connection with investigations

and surveys; expenses of official administration at the head office; drainage and reclamation. There are several items under the one heading of water-powers. I realize that this is not a good year for launching out on new enterprises, and we have endeavoured not to do that, but in respect of this enterprise which we have already undertaken, we thought it would be more economical to continue it, especially in view of the fact that we have a special staff engaged for the purpose.
For surveys and works under the Irrigation Act, etc,, including $400 for P. Marchand, as auditor of disbursements made by companies acquiring lands under the irrigation system,


Frank Oliver: I merely repeat the
criticism I made on the previous item. I do not wish to make any adverse criticism of the payment to a very capable auditor, Mr. Marchand, but I think it is only fair to say that this item is, in my judgment, in very much the same position as the previous one. It is an item for expenditure upon examinations and explorations which, if it were desired to study economy, might be decreased or deferred in some measure during the present year.
Canadian national parks, $349,670.


Mr. WARNOCK:: May I ask the minister whether he has had any complaints or protests in respect to the extension of the boundaries of Waterloo Lakes Park?


William Roche: I think I have had one or two complaints in regard to the extension.
I cannot remember from whom, but I think the matter has been brought to my attention.


David Warnock: Is it proposed to reduce the size of that park? I understand that there has been some fric-10 p.m. tion, in the matter between the Forestry Department and the Parks Department. The matter is quite important, in a way; I am sure that some petitions have been sent in by stockmen and settlers.


William Roche: The matter is unaer consideration. I think I can tell the hon. gentleman that it is most likely that there will be a redaction in the size of the park.


Frank Oliver: In what particular feature is the very considerable reduction in this item?


William Roche: In nearly all the parks we are having a reduction of expenditure. There was a large expenditure in connection with the Banff park last year in build-
ing the bath house. That is now completed and will effect quite a saving.


James McCrie Douglas: Is any money being
made out of the Wainwright buffalo park? What are you doing with the surplus buffalo? They are breeding very rapidly.


William Roche: I do not think there is
much money being made out of the park, there may be some but not very much.


Frank Oliver: Is there any intention of increasing the area of the Jasper park? At present there is a stretch of, I think, ten miles on each side of the railway.


William Roche: If my memory serves me
correctly it was enlarged a year or two ago.


Frank Oliver: Before leaving Edmonton, I was spoken to in reference to a suggestion that the area should be increased very considerably. There was some objection to any very considerable increase, the idea was that it was fair and reasonable to have a stretch of say from ten to twenty miles on" each side of the railway itrack under the special park regulations. I wish to put myself on record as in favour of not having an unreasonable extension of the park regulations.


James McCrie Douglas: Has the minister had
any representations from the residents of Wainwright asking for the removal of the buffalo park?


William Roche: Not that I am aware of.


James McCrie Douglas: I understand a petition was sent in asking the Government to remove that park, that they required the land for arable purposes. Wainwright is the centre of a good arable country and it is considered a detriment to have the whole southern section of the district occupied by a buffalo park.


William Roche: I was under the impression that the people of Wainwright originally were all in favour of having it there.


James McCrie Douglas: At one time, yes.


William Roche: It may be that they have changed their minds and sent in some petition, but I cannot recall it.


Frank Oliver: At Jasper park the Government have made very considerable expenditures in road-making and otherwise. They have added greatly to the advantages of the park as a point for tourists and pleasure seekers but they have been so very particular in their determination that

everything be kept up to the highest standard that, up to the present time, time, no accommodation has been provided for visitors at the park. The natural beauty is there, but of course unless a visitor is able to obtain food and shelter, the scenery is not of any serious advantage to him, and he passes on through. I understand it is the intention of the Government to require the erection of very first-class hotel accommodation in the park. I would suggest that in these hard times the minister lower the standard required by his officials and endeavour to secure moderate accommodation which will meet the immediate purposes of the tourist trade and enable the visitors of to-day to enjoy the scenery and advantages of the park. There are two important points. Jasper is what might be called the capital of the park, and Poco-hontas the point at which people leave to go into the hot springs. There should be accomodation for travellers at both.
Engraving, lithographing, printing and preparation of maps, plans and kindred publications of the Dominion, including necessary materials for same, $81,500.


William Roche: This increase is offset by the reduction which we have made in the surveys, so that there is no real increase in the vote, and it is caused by the establishment of a blue print plant in connection with the department for lithographing, etc.


Frank Oliver: Homestead maps of the West are issued showing the progress of settlement from year to year. They are unique, and most valuable to any one who desires to follow them. They are gotten up in four separate sheets, one Manitoba, one Saskatchewan, one of the southern part of Alberta and one of the northern part of Alberta. I suppose that owing to the great amount of labour involved, in making corrections from year to year, the staff is occupied nearly the whole year, so that the last of the four maps gets out only at the end of the year. That is to say, the map of Northern Alberta which gives the condition of settlement up to the beginning of 1914, does not reach the public until the end of 1914. As the area covered by the map of Northern Alberta includes the Peace River country, which today is attracting attention and settlement more than any other section of the West, I would suggest to the minister that this map be made the first care of his staff in getting out these four maps.


William Roche: I recognize the force of
my hon. friend's remarks. As homesteaders are flocking into the Peace River District at the present time I think we might be justified in giving that map the first claim, although my hon. friend no doubt remembers the argument that is sometimes made against the department for encouraging settlers to go up into the north country in advance of transportation facilities. The settlers there frequently become a charge on the department for grub-staking and so on. After they have raised their crops they say: We have no transportation facilities; you encouraged us by your immigration literature to locate here, and now you must look after us. That must be taken into consideration, although personally I do not think that a map would induce people to settle there; but undoubtedly it would be a great source of information.


Frank Oliver: 
Mr. HAZEN:: I have practically to take the two departments together. Last year we had 178 officials in the Marine Department; this year we have 143, or 35 less. In the Naval Department last year we had 84 officials, and we have now 125, or 41 more. In explanation I may say that under the statute the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is also the Minister of Naval Service. The two departments are under the one minister, and for the purpose of equalizing the work of those departments we have found it desirable to transfer a considerable quantity of

work from the Marine and Fisheries Department to the Naval Service Department. This ' equalizes the work and promotes greater efficiency. For the Naval Service Department, which deals not merely with naval affairs, but with fisheries protection, the hydrographic and tidal surveys, and other branches of some importance, had a far less share of work than the Marine-and Fisheries Department. By the changes we have made, 38 clerks are transferred from the Marine Department to the Naval Service Department, which accounts for the great diminution in the number of marine officials, and the great increase in the number of JIaval Service officials. There are no salary increases in the Marine Department except the ordinary statutory increases. There are apparently three extra clerks, but when it comes to be looked into one of them is the naval architect, who has been employed by the department for many years. He has always been in the outside service, but it is now proposed to place him in the inside service on the same footing as other Civil Service officials. The other two extra clerks are stenographers at $500 a year. In the Naval Service Department too, there are apparently three extra clerks, but they are all outside service, officials who are being transferred to the inside ' service. There are no promotions, and no increases except the statutory increases.


John Howard Sinclair: Can the minister explain why there has been no return from the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the Department of Naval Service as to the number of officials appointed or dismissed ? A return was moved for more than a year ago asking for these figu"es in regard to all departments, and apparently the Post Office Department and the Marine and Fisheries Department are the only ones that have not complied with that order. Can the minister tell us how many officials have been dismissed and how many appointed since this Government took office ?


John Douglas Hazen: I am not able to say offhand, but speaking from memory I do not think a single official in the insiae service of either the Marine and Fisheries Department or the Naval Service Department has been dismissed since the Government took office.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand that most of the changes have taken place in the outside service. Might I suggest, to the 
minister that his department follow the good example of the other departments and furnish the House with that information.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know why it has not been done. I shall certainly have the information brought down.


John Howard Sinclair: There is apparently an increase in the total.


John Douglas Hazen: For 1915-16 the total
salaries for	the two	departments	are$379,700, and	last year	$359,950.	In	thetwo there is an apparent increase of $20,000, but fully half of that is accounted for by the statutory increases, which in the case of most of the officials is $100 a year, although some of the lower ones get only $50. In addition to that, there is the salary of Mr! Duguid, the naval architect, who has been transferred from the outside to the inside service. That accounts for $4,000. Two	stenographers at	$500	ayear brings that'	up to	$5,000.
In addition, there is an inspector in the radio-telegraph branch at $1,600, an engineer in connection with the fish hatchery work, $1,800, and a clerk in the accountant's branch of the Naval Department, $500. These three officers were in the outside service, and they were transferred to the inside service. These items amount to $9,000 or $10,000, and the balance of the other $10,000 is represented by the statutory increases in the salaries of the officers.


John Howard Sinclair: Would the minister
furnish us with a complete list of the appointed and dismissed officials before he goes into the main estimates?


John Douglas Hazen: I will if it has not already been brought down.


John Howard Sinclair: A large number of offi-. cers were appointed in October as inspectors of pickled fish and fish canneries.


John Douglas Hazen: The administration of that Act was handed over to us by the Agriculture Department and we re-appointed the officers, but it entailed no extra salaries.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would it not be
better to appoint competent men and pay them?


John Douglas Hazen: Perhaps it would.
Civil Government-Department of Naval Service, $220,600.


John Howard Sinclair: 
John Douglas Hazen: It was done with the intention of equalizing the work of the departments. -Ever since there has been a Naval Department it has had to do with the administration of a portion of the fisheries, such as the fishery protection service and
other branches, and it was thought desirable to equalize the distribution of the work between the officials. The change was made in the public interest and it has worked well. The book referred to was published first of all in 1913 for distribution at the Toronto Exhibition where the Department for the first time made an exhibition of the fisheries wealth of Canada. There was an edition of 60,000 originally published and that soon ran out, and we are getting further demands from all parts of Canada. Our French citizens have been asking ior copies of this book so that we have had a translation made for distribution amongst them. I am glad my hon. friend from Guysborough approves of the book, and coming as he does from a fishing county he no doubt recognizes the value of fish as a food.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why not say that it is issued by the Department of Marine and Fisheries?
!Mr. HAZEN : Because it is not issued by the Department of Marine and Fisheries; it is issued by the Department of Naval Affairs which has under its charge fishery matters. What difference does it make? I think it is better to speak the truth.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It makes a great difference. It is throwing ridicule upon the Department of Naval Service to say that this cookery book is issued by that department.


John Douglas Hazen: No one has tried before to throw ridicule upon it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I think the minister should not bring out another edition of this book and credit it to the Department of Naval Service.


John Douglas Hazen: Then we would not be crediting it to the right department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Government will forgive the minister if- he is not quite frank in stating the name of the department issuing the book. I think he should state the fisheries branch.
Ocean and river service, $1,256,900.


John Douglas Hazen: I just want this item of the main estimates called. I am not calling it for the purpose of discussion.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. minister will remember the plaims that are filed in his department with regard to the Behring sea fisheries. I do not know exactly which item they come under, and I presume they are not to this discussion; but I have received

several inquiries from men who laid claims before Judge Audette when he was going throughout the country and they are naturally anxious to know what progress is being made in regard to the matter. Perhaps while the minister is dealing with the estimates, ihe will be able to tell us in what state those claims are at present.


John Douglas Hazen: There have been a great many of those claims, and Judge Audette has investigated nearly all of them. He is going to Britisn Columbia in a very short time to dispose of the remaining ones in which he has not yet heard the evidence. That will wind up the hearing of the claims, and I understand he hopes to be able to make*a report dealing with the whole question some time- during the coming summer. The matter is getting to the point where it will be wound up very soon.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.
Thursday, February 18, 1915.