1915-03-26

WAR SUPPLIES-CONTRACT OF E. POWELL.

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Mr. H. B. MORPHY, acting chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, presented the third report of said committee, as follows :
Your committee ask leave to submit to the House the evidence taken in respect to the contract for supplies purchased from Mr. E. Powell, and to express their opinion that the contracts for such supplies do not appear to have been so worded as to fully protect the public interests.
Your committee therefore recommend that the evidence adduced and all papers bonnec.ted therewith be referred by the House to the Department of Justice for any further investigation, if necessary, for the recovery of any moneys overpaid, the holding back of any moneys not yet paid over, and the taking of such further action as may be warranted by the facts.
And your committee herewith transmit the evidence taken and all papers which came under their view, in connection with the contract with Mr. E. Powell.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 
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Motion agreed to.


Mr. LANCASTER:: I beg to move.:
That owing to the advanced period of the session, Rule 28a, paragraph a, subsection 3 of Rule 89, subsection 1 of Rule 103, and Rules 114 and 115 relating to Private Bills be suspended for the remainder of this session, in accordance with the recommendation contained in the tenth report of the Select Standing Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines.
I might say in support of the motion that this was moved yesterday by the hon. member for North Ontario (Mr Samuel Sharpe), chairman of the Committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills, and recommanded both by that committee and the Committee on Railways, Canals, and Telegraph Lines. I could read the rules we are suspending, but it is sufficient. I think, to say that they are those which *make it necessary to go through formalities which entail delay, and if we are going to prorogue at the time contemplated, we would not be able to put these Bills through unless the motion is carried.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many
Bills are there?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: There are two or
three for the Railway Committee, and I understand there are a number for the Miscellaneous Private Bills Committee.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The rules to be suspended by this motion are:	28A, in reference to Bills originating in the Senate being placed on the Order Paper for first reading, which sometimes causes a delay of one or two days; rule 89, subsection 3, which says that when any rule is suspended in reference to a Bill the fee for such suspension is $100, and as the parties promoting the Bills are not in fault, it was thought a hardship to impose this fine; rule 103, subsection 1, which says that the committee cannot consider-a Bill originating in the Senate until notice has been posted up twenty-four hours; rule 114, which says that Senate amendments to Private Bills, if important, must be sent to the Standing Committee before second reading; and rule 115, which says that no motion for the suspension of a rule applying to Private Bills
shall be entertained unless recommended by the Committee on Standing Orders or some other committee.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand
from your statement, Mr. Speaker, that if there is any fault it is not the fault of the persons applying for the Bills, who in all cases have made due diligence.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: In such circumstances the motion should pass.


Robert Laird Borden: One of the main considerations for the rules of the House is, that due public notice should be given in respect to all these applications, and, as 1 understand it, this motion does not cut down in any way the notice which is required to be given.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: That is not affected
by this motion.


Robert Laird Borden: The motion relates merely to the procedure of the House and the suspension of some rules which involve delay.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Yes, as between the
two Hhuses.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the
motion might very well pass at the present time, inasmuch as the persons who have these Bills before Parliament have not been guilty of any default.


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Motion agreed to.


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Mr. EDMOND PROULX (Prescott) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 94, to amend the Dominion Elections Act. He said: This Bill purposes to amend section 70 of the Dominion Elections Act, so as to conform with the amendment which I proposed last week to the Act respecting the Senate and the House of Commons. As the law is at present, no person is qualified to be a candidate while he holds or enjoys a contract, express or implied, with the Government, or with any officer of the Government. I wish to widen the scope of this clause and to include any person who, during the time he is a director of, or holds, either directly or indirectly, a controlling interest in any incorporated company having a contract or agreement, expressed or implied, or any unsatisfied claim arising therefrom with or
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for or against the Government of Canada, on behalf of the Crown, or with or for or against any of the officers of the Government of Canada for which any public money of Canada is to be paid. The purpose of the amendment is to further secure the independence of candidates from the Administration of the day, which has the distribution of patronage and the awarding of contracts, often without public tenders, and at the same time safeguard the public interest.
Motion agreed to, and Bill was read the first time.

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On motion of Hon. W. T. White (Minister of Finance), the House went into committee, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair, to consider the following proposed resolution:
Whereas, for the purposes set forth in Orders in Council of date the fifth day of September, 1914	(P.C.	2325), the twenty-sixth day ofSeptember, 1914	(P.C.	2450), the twentyfourth day of October, 1914 (P.C. 2670), the twentieth day of November, 1914 (P.C. 2921), and the sixteenth day of December, 1914 (P.C. 3170), and pursuant to said orders, advances to the amount of ten million dollars ($10,000,000) in the form of an issue of Dominion notes were made to the Canadian Northern Railway Company, against a pledge by the company of its guaranteed securities issued in pursuance of the provisions of " The Canadian Northern Railway Guarantee Act, 1914," by placing the sums so advanced to the credit of the Minister of Finance for payment out under the provisions of the trust deed securing the issue of these securities;And whereas, for the purposes set forth in Orders in Council of date the fifth day of September, 1914 (P.C. 2326), the twenty-sixth day of September, 1914 (P.C. 2451), the twenty-fourth day of October, 1914 (P.C. 2671), and the twentieth day of November, 1914	(P.C.
2922), and pursuant to said orders, advances to the amount of six million dollars ($6,000,090) in the form of an issue of Dominion notes were made to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, against a pledge by the company of its guaranteed securities issued in pursuance of the provisions of " The Grand Trunk Pacific Guarantee Act, 1914," by placing the sums so advanced to the credit of the Minister of Finance for payment out and under the provisions of the deed of trust securing the issue of these securities;
And whereas, pursuant to an Order in Council of date the second day of November, 1914 (P.C. 2750), Dominion notes to the amount of ten million dollars ($10,000,000) were issued, in order that certain obligations of Canada might be met as they matured;
And whereas, with respect to the greater part of these issues of Dominion notes security in the form required by section 5 of the Dominion Notes Act, 1914, was not held ;
And whereas, it is expedient in so far as such issues and the making of such advances and the taking of security therefor, and the 
agreements with regard to repayment of such advances require legal confirmation, that they be severally confirmed;
Therefore resolved, that it is expedient to provide that the issues of Dominion notes, and the advances made in pursuance of the Orders in Council cited in the preamble to this resolution and all things done under the provisions of the said Orders in Council be confirmed and be deemed to have been duly authorized.
Mr. WHITE:: 
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: From the banks?


William Thomas White: From the banks here, or
in the United States or in Great Britain. My hon. friend will realize, though it is difficult to realize now, the exceedingly critical condition that prevailed immediately following the outbreak of the war. This was in September. The moratory legislation in England prevented our banks as well as outside banks from obtaining payment, even had they desired it, of deposits which they had with institutions in Great Britain. In this connection I may point out that in many cases companies, Arms, and, I suppose, individuals in Canada, who had provided for credits in advance in order to meet maturing liabilities in Great Britain, found themselves in the position, by reason of the moratorium, of not being able to avail themselves of credits so established.
As I said, both railway companies were earnestly requested by the Government to obtain loans from Canadian banks, or in the United States or in Great Britain, but they were unable to do so. Both the Prime Minister and myself took the opportunity to

consult with the bankers of the railways concerned to ascertain that the statements made by the railway companies in this respect were correct. In the circumstances two alternatives presented themselves. The first was to allow the railway companies to shut dowm construction work and disband their organizations. This would have involved the dismissal of about twelve thousand men engaged in the construction work of both companies. It would have meant the loss to the contractors of their organizations. It would have meant also that the supply businesses engaged in furnishing material and provisions to these organizations would suffer heavy loss and the trade of the country would be seriously inconvenienced thereby. By reason of the fact that interest would continue to run against the companies, it would have meant also that the Government's own security under these mortgages and under former legislation with regard, to both systems would be diminished and the date of their completion indefinitely postponed. The disbandment of existing organizations, of course, would have meant increased expense in assembling them at a later date for the purpose of completing construction. The other alternative was that the Government should make advances directly to the two companies upon their securities bearing its guarantee to ensure completion of their systems-that is, to effectuate the intention of Parliament in giving the guarantee. In giving the matter consideration it was borne in mind that Parliament, at the August session, had granted to the Government powers of a very far-reaching character under the War Measures Act of 1914, section 6 of which is as follows:
The Governor in Council shall have power to do and authorize such acts and things and to - make from time to time such orders and regulations as he may hy reason of the existence of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, deem necessary or advisable for the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada.


Mr. McKENZIE:: That would extend to company railway matters.


William Thomas White: I was coming to that a little later on, but may deal with it now. The Minister of Justice, I think, would be prepared to give his opinion-though it is not relevant, because I stated when the subject was referred to earlier in the session, that I did not propose to rely upon the War Measures Act-that if the Government considered the issue of these securities to be lMr. W.. T. White.]
of public interest during the period of the war it would be open to the Government to make such issues. But, as I have stated, I do not intend to rely upon that. I refer to it only for this reason-to show that an exceptional condition existed and was -recognized by Parliament in August last. For the War Measures Act would obviously not have been enacted under normal conditions. The powers conferred by that Act would not have been conferred under normal conditions, but only as stated in the Act, "In case of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection.'' The object of that legislation was to empower the Government to take such action in the public interest as the exigencies of the war might require and which, in normal times, could and should only be taken by the consent of Parliament.
Now, Mr. Chairman, there was no power in the Government to make advances from Consolidated Revenue Fund, upon the security of these guaranteed bonds and debenture stock. The only possible method that was open to the Government to assist in the completion of this enterprise which . the Government regarded as desirable in the public interest was to make advances in Dominion notes. There wtfs no other means to accomplish the end, namely, the completion of these lines, than the issue of Dominion notes by way of advances. As the banks were unwilling to intervene as borrowers from the Government on behalf of the companies, it became necessary, if the situation was to be met, that the Government should make the advances directly to the railway companies themselves upon the securities in question. Advances were accordingly made of Dominion notes from month to month upon the guaranteed securities at the rate of 80. The agreement of pledge taken from the railway companies was the same as that which has been taken from the banks in connection with advances made to them under the authority of the Finance Act of 1914. I may say that no question arises so far as the security is concerned. It is only a short time ago that Canadian Northern railway securities, guaranteed by the Dominion, were sold at a net price of 91J. As I stated, although I believe, the Minister of Justice would have been prepared to advise the Government that it had authority to make these issues-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What authority?
I do not understand.


William Thomas White: Section 6 of the War Measures Act.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is, the Minister of Justice would advise that the advance should be made out of the $50,000,000.


William Thomas White: Not necessarily.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is not very important, but it does seem strange to me that such a contention as that put forward by the Minister of Finance should be made, and I cannot understand how it could be sustained. Of course, I do not say it is important.


William Thomas White: Except that this exceptional legislation did exist. This legislation has no necessary relation to the war vote of $50,000,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In considering the interpretation of a statute, I think the minister should keep strictly within the rule that a statute should be interpreted in the light of the history of its time, the circumstances under which it was enacted and what was in the minds of the legislators when it was passed.


William Thomas White: I agree with my hon. friend. I do not propose to rely upon this statute; if I did, I should not be asking for confirmatory legislation. I believe the action of the Government is within the War Measures Act, but, as I was about to say, as we had specially amended the Dominion Notes Act in the August session and as we had in addition enacted the Finance Act of 1914, both relating to issues of Dominion notes, it appeared to me, as stated in the Order in Council, that the issue made by executive authority should be validated and confirmed by Parliament.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That seems to be right.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: When the minister is trying to get on solid ground by means of new legislation, I do not think he will help his case by propping it up upon an untenable interpretation of the War Act.


William Thomas White: 
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Under the Dominion Notes Act, when notes are issued they go into the Consolidated Fund Account. The result of the net issue under the Act of August last gave the consolidated fund account $15,000,000, and there would be $10,000,000 under the other issue.. Did this $25,000,000 actually go into the Consolidated Fund account, and does it appear in the



J532 COMMONS

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calculations of the Minister of Finance of his total revenue for the present fiscal year, namely, $120,000,000? If not, why not?
William Thomas White: It is not included in the $120,000,000. The $120,000,000 is the revenue of the Dominion; an issue of Dominion notes constituted a liability on the part of the Dominion. It is true that the Dominion used the $15,000,000 to which my hon. friend has referred, and the $10,000,000, or a total of $25,000,000, but it is just as if they had obtained a bank credit for that amount.


Robert Laird Borden: Just the same as if you had borrowed it.


William Thomas White: 
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 
William Thomas White: 
Wilfrid Laurier: You add them to the public debt.


William Thomas White: All added to the public
debt. Any increase of Dominion notes expands the public debt. But if, on the other hand, you hold gold against the Dominion

notes, your net debt is not increased, because the gold is a set-off.
With regard to the $10,000,000 issued for the general purposes of the Dominion, I may say that we have now $1,200,000 of gold against it, and it will be the policy of the Government gradually to redeem that $10,000,000, as has been done in other countries-as is being done in Great Britain today.
My attention has been called to certain newspaper .articles in which it has been said that these resolutions ask Parliament practically for a blank cheque for the issue of Dominion notes. The committee will observe that the resolutions are confined solely to the confirmation of the issues of Dominion notes aggregating $26,000,000 to which I have referred. The reason why a wrong impression got abroad was that it appeared to the Government last fall that, having regard to the critical condition which prevailed in all international markets, it might be necessary, and indeed that it would be necessary, for the Dominion Government to increase the Dominion note issue; and therefore in one of the Orders in Council, I think in the November one, it is stated that it was the intention of the Government to apply to Parliament for legislation which would authorize an increase in the Dominion note issue, secured by only 25 per cent in gold, to $80,000,000 instead of $50,000,000, as was done at the August session, or such other .amount as the exigencies of the war might require. I am glad to say that there has been such a wonderful improvement financially throughout the world -in London, in New York and in Canada- that it will not be necessary for the Government to consider the question of further extending the Dominion note issue or to ask for any legislation giving them that authority. As I stated, the policy of the Government will be to gradually redeem the $10,000,000 of Dominion notes issued for these general purposes; and, as the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern Railway securities which we hold are sold, to redeem the notes issued against them. If that programme is carried out, as I think it will be, we shall have our Dominion note issue in accordance with the express provisions of the Finance Act, 1914.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will that be by redemption or by building up your reserve?


William Thomas White: Either way. For example, if we acquired gold and added it to our gold holdings, then the issue to that extent would be quite regularized under the Dominion

Notes Act. I omitted to say that the advances which we made in Dominion notes to the two railway companies
12 m. were deposited to the credit of ' the Receiver General to be paid out under the terms of the trust mortgages securing the issues in accordance with the Acts authorizing the guarantees. For the further information of the committee, I may say that, at the end of December last, the proportion of gold to Dominion notes outstanding and not otherwise secured was 65.82 per cent; at the end of January, it was 65.83 per cent; at the end of February, it was 65.88 per cent. These percentages are higher than the percentages prior to 1903, when the rate was 62 per cent. It may be interesting to the committee to know that, under the terms of the Federal Reserve Act of the United States, the federal reserve banks are required to maintain gold reserves equal to 40 per cent of their outstanding circulation. These notes are issued to the federal reserve banks by the Federal Reserve Board on receipt of collateral security consisting of notes and bills accepted for rediscount under the provisions of the Act. Under this advanced legislation a gold reserve of 40 per cent is considered sufficient, that is in the United States.
The action of the Government in making this advance is justified, we believe, so far as the $10,000,000 issue is concerned, on account of the necessity of maintaining the Dominion's credit in the emergency of the war, which made it impossible for the Government to borrow. So far as the advances to the railway companies are concerned, the justification is, in our view, the effectuation of the intention of Parliament that the two lines should be completed; the fact that the companies were unable to sell or borrow upon the guaranteed securities; the public necessity that the unemployment and the great loss that would result from the closing down of construction should be averted; and, lastly, the interest which the Dominion Government has as guarantor that its security should not be diminished by the loss of interest which would have resulted had construction been discontinued for an indefinite period. The statement I have made to the committee this morning shows the extent to which the Dominion has had to go in the issue of paper money not secured by gold.
The House may be interested to know how far other countries have been obliged to go since the outbreak of the war. The British Chancellor of tne Exchequer, in August last, undertook to issue paper currency and to deposit with banks asking for advances an amount equal to 20 per cent of their deposits and current liabilities.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister
state that again?


William Thomas White: 
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would that have been Bank of England notes?


William Thomas White: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: We have legislation
enabling us to issue Dominion notes. Has England any legislation for the isue of what they call Bradburys?


William Thomas White: The Bradburys were first issued, I think, and then legislation ob-

tained validating what had been done and providing for the further issues which I have mentioned. I believe there is no limitation to the amount. In the United States the situation at the outbreak of war was similar to that which existed in Great Britain and ^anada, but fortunately the Aldrich-Vreeland Act had been amended in the previous year and, although up to that time it had not been availed of, it proved exceedingly useful in meeting the financial exigency of the war as experienced in the United States. Under that Act the banks were authorized to issue additional security, not exceeding $90,000,000, against cotton and tobacco secured notes, instead of as against United States bonds as previously, and under this measure the United States banks issued $363,000,000 of excess note circulation to meet the situation created by the war. In addition to that the Government deposited with the banks throughout the United States about $320,000,000, which, of course, was exceedingly helpful. I have taken probably an unnecessary amount of time in fully explaining these measures to the committee, but I realize that they are of great importance. Under normal conditions, in fact under even trying conditions, a Government, generally speaking, would not be authorized to take the action which this Government has taken in making these Dominion note issues. But by reason of the exceedingly critical situation created by the war and its effect upon international finance, which was described in my Budget speech of August last, and in the Budget speech of the present session, and is well known to all the members of the House, the Government felt justified in taking the executive action which I have described, feeling confident that their action would be subsequently confirmed by the House by reason of the exceptional circumstances which prevailed at the time the action was taken, and the objects we had in view in taking it. Having regard to the measures which were deemed essential, and which were taken in Great Britain, France and the United States, to say nothing of Germany, it must be conceded that on the whole Canada, a belligerent nation, has come through the crisis with as little amendment to her financial legislation and as little enlargement to her currency facilities as probablv any other nation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Before the minister concludes I should like to say just a word. We have at the present time a Dominion note issue of $76,000,000, of which

$50,000,000 is authorized under the Dominion Notes Act of August, 1914, ail'd the rest of which is, to be legalized by the Bill to be founded on the resolutions we are now considering. Therefore we shall have two pieces of legislation authorizing this total note issue of $76,000,000. It struck me as the minister was speaking that it might have been better to amend in some form the Dominion Notes Act so that all the legislation on this subject would be contained in one Act, or in the principal Act and an amending Act. There is no guarantee, of course, that the Government will redeem the excess circulation of $26,000,000 within any specified time, or that they will build up an additional gold reserve of $26,000,000 against this excess note issue, so as to come within the requirements of the Dominion Notes Act. I do not say there is much importance in the point I am making, but I am interested in knowing whether the minister has considered it.


William Thomas White: I have considered the point to which my hon. friend has drawn attention, and I have thought it better that the action of the Government should be confirmed by Parliament. I desire to leave the Dominion Notes Act precisely as it is, for I do not think it wise that we should enlarge the free Dominion note issue provided by that Act. Now it is true, as my hon. friend has pointed out, that there will be $26,000,000 of Dominion note issue legalized by the confirmation which Parliament will, we hope, now give to the action of the Government. But, as I have pointed out, it will be the policy of the Government to gradually reduce that amount, and according to my conception the $26,000,000 will be gradually redeemed; and the Dominion note issue will then stand as the original Government issue of Dominion notes. I think this was the course followed by the Government in 1908, when legislation was introduced confirming the action of the Government in making advances to the banks in 1907 during a critical financial period. Now, as soon as those loans were paid off, that confirmation was exhausted, and the Dominion Government then continued to be governed by the express provisions of the Dominion Notes Act. Once the notes that had been issued in excess of the amount authorized by the Dominion Notes Act were redeemed, there was no power by reason of the validating legislation for the Government to re-issue those notes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: As a matter of fact,
I do not think the loans were ever made.


William Thomas White: Oh, yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: As the Minister of
Finance has stated, this is very important legislation. Further, it is very intricate and technical, and I trust that anything I shall say will be accompanied with becoming modesty, and be taken as an endeavour to express my own views, rather than the opinion of any other hon. gentleman.
I think this is the first occasion in the history of Canada in which the authorized Dominion note issue has been exceeded, for reasons such as those now urged by the Minister of Finance. Our previous authorizations to extend the Dominion note issue were, if I recollect aright, due to two causes, the first of which was due to the expanding business of the country which necessitated an increase in the available paper money for our commercial needs, and the second occurred in 1907; the justification then being a currency stringency. I am not disposed to agree with the Minister of Finance that under the legislation passed last August there was authority for this excess note issue, but as he does not rely on that as a justification, and comes to Parliament asking for legislative confirmation, it is not necessary that I should deal with that phase of the question. There was no authority to make advances to the Canadian Northern Railway Company or to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company upon their own securities guaranteed by the Government of Canada, nor was there authority for the note issue made in respect of each of these two advances in Dominion notes. We, therefore, have two unauthorized acts on the part of the Government, and the question before us is a consideration of whether the circumstances were such as to justify these acts. I am not disposed to find very much fault with the action of the minister in making advances to the railway companies, because, no doubt, it was of great importance to the railway companies and to the country that they should be able to carry to completion their undertakings during the past year. These advances were made upon the authorized securities issued by the company and guaranteed by the Government of Canada. They were not, of course, liquid securities and could not be immediately realized upon, but inasmuch as they were guaranteed by the Dominion, one can hardly contend
that the security was not good. If the time ever comes when these are not a good security, then Canada and Canadians will be in a serious plight indeed. It is to be noted also that these securities were accepted at a discount of twenty per cent, which under the circumstances I would think a fair reduction to make. I am not disposed, therefore, to find any fault with the note issue made upon the securities of the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company. I have not perused the Orders in Council very carefully, but I am assuming that these advances to the companies, upon their own securities, are for a fixed period, and that upon the termination of that period the country may look for a payment of the advances. If the financial conditions then are such that the railway companies cannot meet these obligations, there will no doubt be some arrangement by which the maturity of the advances may be extended on just terms.
The note issue of ten million dollars is in a somewhat different position from the note issues made to provide advances to the railway companies, and which the minister states the railway companies were unable to secure from the banks. Perhaps I should here say tha,t I am pleased that the minister is in a position to state that the Prime Minister and he urged upon the banks to make these advances to the two railway companies, under the Financial Measures Act of last year. I think it would have been preferable had the railway companies secured the desired advances in this way. It would have relieved the Government of the responsibility of making unauthorized issues of Dominion notes. I do think that in the circumstances the banks should have met the request of the Prime Minister and his Finance Minister, particularly as it meant no financial risk on their part, and they would immediately have received Dominion notes from the Government. Of course, it would have increased their liabilities which perhaps they desired to avoid.
I am glad to have the assurance of the Minister of Finance that he does not purpose allowing this entire excess note issue to remain outstanding indefinitely, He proposes either a redemption of the excess note issue, or its justification under the terms of the Dominion Notes Act by the increase of the gold reserve so that the issue will come within the provisions of that Act. That being the case,the situation is very different from what it would have

been, had the minister come to Parliament asking for authority to increase the note issue from $50,000,000 to $80,000,000, as was proposed in the Order in Council of November 2, 1914. On the whole, I am very glad that the minister has taken this view of the matter; that he is only seeking confirmation of the action he has taken, and that he has given the committee an assurance of his intention to redeem those notes or to meet the requirements of the Dominion Notes Act so far as gold reserve is concerned in respect to that issue. Our paper currency has always been regarded as being in an extremely safe and sound condition; and it would be unfortunate if, at any time or under any circumstances, we departed very far from the requirements of the Act. I trust this will only be done under the most compelling of necessities. I shall reserve any other remarks until we are considering the Bill to be founded upon these resolutions.


Wilfrid Laurier: Just a word to complete what has been said by my hon. friend the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean). I take the same view as he does. I am very glad that the legislation goes no further than to confirm the issue of $26,000,000 of notes which was authorized by the Government last fall. At the August session we gave power to the Government to issue Dominion notes to the extent of $50,000,000 upon a gold basis of 25 per cent. The system upon which the credit of Canada rests is that every dollar issued out of the treasury in paper must be represented by gold in the treasury; but ever since that system was introduced, we have given a certain leeway to the Government, allowing a small proportion of Dominion notes to be issued in excess of the gold reserve. At the August session we increased that amount from $30,000,000 to $50,000,000; but the country was somewhat disturbed last fall when we heard that the Government intended to increase it from $50,000,000, to $80,000,000 upon the same gold reserve. The Government, however, does not intend to bring down legislation to confirm that intention. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance, has just stated that the financial situation has so improved that he sees no necessity now to ask what he intended to ask, and that, he will limit the legislation to where we left it in the month of August last; that is to say, the Dominion will be authorized to issue paper currency to the extent of $50,000,000 and no more. The Government, however, has

made an extra issue of $26,000,000, and its intention now is simply to confirm that illegal act, so far as it was illegal, because it was against the law, and nothing more. The Government does not urge that its power to extend that issue be confirmed, so that when that $26,000,000 has been recouped to the treasury, the Government will not have power to issue another dollar upon the legislation which we are about to pass. Once this transaction is completed, there is no more to it. When the Government has been recouped for the advances which it has made to the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific and to the public at large, when those notes come back to the treasury, they are not to be reissued. The power of the Government is limited simply to the $50,000,000 and no more.
So far as Parliament is concerned, the only question before us today is whether or not the Government was wise or could be justified in issuing the $26,000,(500 which it issued, as stated by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance in the very lucid explanation which he gave to the House th: ; morning. There has been some departure from sound principles. The basis of our legislation is that the credit of the country should not be used except under the strict terms of the law, but there are circumstances in which the Government is allowed to make some departure from the strict letter of the law. The late Government, over which I presided, did so in 1907. At that time the business of the country had so expanded that the ordinarv credit was found to be insufficient to move the crops of that, year. Upon finding that to be the case,, we thought we were justified in issuing Dominion notes to the banks so as to help the business of the country to go on. Our action was justified. In that case, however, we took for our issue absolutely liquid assets, and that is the object which the minister must have before him. He should make advances upon securities of that kind, so that if a sudden demand were to come to him, he could readily convert his assets into gold and meet his liabilities to the public. In this instance, 1 realize that my hon. friend could not secure liquid assets. The credit of the country was so disturbed by the war that he found it utterly impossible to obtain the liquid assets which he otherwise would have been expected to secure; but the securities which he obtained were of the best character that could be desired, because

they were securities, guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada. So far as that is concerned, no criticism can be offered against my hon. friend. The only criticism is that I think he should have taken that power last session, and he should be censured for not doing so. The correspondence shows that one of the companies, the Grand Trunk Pacific, came to him for assistance, and it would have been preferable if he had then taken the power which he is asking now. There would have been no difficulty in giving him that power, under the circumstances within the authority of Parliament, there can be only one excuse for the Government exceeding the authority of Parliament, that is, when there is a sudden demand which there was no possibility of for-seeing.
In this ease, my hon. friend should have foreseen that he would require that money, because the application had already been made. It was not a demand arising after the session of August, hut it had arisen before that session. But, so far as that goes, the point is not essential; the matter is one which we can overlook because, after all, " Salus populi suprema lex." In such circumstances as my hon. friend was confronted with, I agree with him, it would have been deplorable that the work of these two companies which is of such importance should not have gone on; and that it is better that he should have taken the action he did rather than have such a disturbance of business as would have occurred if these two companies had at once ceased their operations. On the whole, I have no hesitation in saying that we ratify the action taken by the Government, especially as we are now certain that the action is purely unique, that it is not general, but is confined to this one transaction.


Robert Laird Borden: There are only one or two observations I desire to make. So far as taking express authority for this purpose at the last session is concerned, I may say to my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and to the House that we had no reason to apprehend at this time that these advances would not be made by the banks. The best security that could be given to any bank was available-the bonds of the railway companies guaranteed by the Government of Canada. We had many conferences with the hanks on the subject, and we thought, and still think, that it would have been better that the advances should have been made in that way. How-97
ever, the banks had their idea of the extent to which they should develop their liabilities on the one hand, and their assets on the other: they thought it would not be desirable or prudent for them to take the course which was suggested. Then, as was pointed out-and I need hardly repeat it- the two alternatives before the Government were either to have the organization of these railway construction companies broken up, thousands of men thrown out of employment, the business and economic conditions of the country disturbed, and the confidence in the future of the country greatly diminished; or, on the other hand, to take the course which was taken. After giving to it as careful consideration, I think, as has ever been given to any subject by the present Government, we concluded that we ought to take the course which was taken. I may say-though the question is only academic at the present moment-that I have not the slightest doubt that we had the power to take this action under, the War Measures Act of 1914 if we had seen fit to do so. I say that for the obvious reason that section 6 authorizes the Governor in Council to perform such acts as he, by reason of real or apprehended war, etc., deems necessary or advisable " for the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada." Now, the general words under which this Parliament received power to legislate for Canada are that it may " make laws for the peace, order and good government of Canada." The words which confer power on the Governor in Council are quite as wide, and I think we might have exercised that power under the War Measures Act. But I thought, and my colleagues thought, notwithstanding the belief that we could have done it in that way, that powers of that kind ought not to be exercised to the widest limit except for the gravest possible reasons. So we decided that if we were to take the course of advancing money upon the securities of these companies guaranteed by Canada, we had better not proceed under the War Measures Act, but pass an Order in Council which would distinctly state, as these Orders do state upon their face, that we were doing that with the intention of having our action afterwards submitted to Parliament, and ratified by Parliament if it should approve.
We took tnat course, and I am very glad to learn that it has met with very little criticism on tne other side of the House; because hon. gentlemen there as here,"



153d
realize that the conditions were urgent:	I
may say, looking back at the two or three months which succeeded the outbreak of the war that perhaps none of us to-day fully realize just how much public opinion in this country was oppressed by - the conditions which prevailed and how grave the situation seemed to us at that time. I for one can testify that the responsibility placed upon the members of the Government in connection with all these matters were of so grave and weighty a character that I most sincerely hope I shall never be called upon to pass through anything of the same kind again.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: Now, with regard to the period for which the loan was made: I understand that it will expire very shortly [DOT]-at the end of this month. If renewal be necessary, as possibly it may be, it will be for only a fixed period. There was no idea of making the loan of an indefinite duration. And in order to reassure the House with regard to the situation, so far as the note reserve is concerned,.I may say that within two or three months after the first issue was "made we were assured by one of these railway companies, I think by both, that the securities given could be sold at an advance of from eight to ten points upon what the Government had advanced upon them.
If there had been any grave condition with regard to our currency, we could have consented that that should have been done; but it was believed by the Minister of Finance and by the companies themselves that with a little more delay the price that could be obtained would be greatly increased. Of course, the loss of three or four points upon the sale of any of these securities meant that just so much less money would be available for the purpose of carrying the construction of these roads to completion. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance has been compelled to leave his place to keep an engagement, but if there is further information desired which, it is within my power to give, I shall be glad to give it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I wish to say just one word to justify the criticism I have offered, that this legislation should have been sought during the August session. I quote from the Order in Council of the 5th September, 1914:

The committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report, dated 5th August, 1914, from the Minister of Finance, submitting the following facts:
(1) At the last session of Parliament an Act was passed known as " The Grand Trunk Pacific Guarantee Act, 1914," whereby the Government of Canada was authorized, for the purposes therein mentioned, to guarantee the payment of the interest and principal of an issue of bonds of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company for a principal amount not exceeding sixteen million dollars.
Then it goes on to say in section 4:
(4) By reason of the effect of the war upon financial conditions in Great Britain and elsewhere the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company has been unable to sell or procure advances upon the said guaranteed securities either in London or in New York. The company' has also been unable owing to prevailing financial conditions, to obtain any loan from Canadian banks.
The minister therefore authorizes the issue of Dominion notes to the extent of $60,000,000. This was the report of the Minister of Finance to the Privy Council on August 5. Everything that is necessary should be done to maintain the high standing which Canada's credit has in the financial world, and it is essential to the maintenance of that high standing that the law should be strictly carried out. In my esti-.mation, the Government should in August last have taken the powers which they are now taking. There has been some fear on the part of the public that the Government might resort to the very unhealthy practice of issuing paper currency. We have the assurance of the Minister of Finance today, however, that there is no such intention that any idea which was entertained in the month of November of increasing the Dominion note issue from $50,000,000 to $80,000,000 will not be carried out. Whilst we ratify the action taken by the Government, I think it will be agreed that it would have been safer and more in accordance with the fitness of things and with tlie maintenance of the high standing of Canada's credit, if the provisions which we are now making had been made in the August session.


Robert Laird Borden: I doubt very
much whether the date referred to is the correct date of the report. My right hon. friend will notice that the Order in Council was approved by His Royal Highness the Governor General on September 5. It may be that it came before us at that time;, I do not recollect it; but if it did come before us at that time, the view we had was that this ought to be done through the



19J5

[Stage Direction]
financial institutions of the country, the banks. After the session of Parliament closed, the managers of two of the largest Canadian banks were asked to come to Ottawa, and it was urged upon them that any advances made by the Government ought to be made through the banks in the way which had been provided for by Parliament. I really saw at that time no great reason why it should not be done in that way, because, although the amounts were large, compared with the enormous business done by the largest banks in Canada, it would not seem an excessive amount for them to have undertaken, particularly as they would have been granting the loan upon the security of the Dominion of Canada. They were so doubtful about it, however, that we could not convince them that it was their duty to undertake it under the circumstances, although we sincerely hoped and believed that, upon reconsideration of the attitude which they had adopted at first, they would be willing to go that far. So we proceeded in the course to which my hon. friend has referred. 1 entirely agree that if we could have definitely foreseen that the banks would decline to take business of this kind, it would have been better to have brought the matter to Parliament at the last session and to have obtained authority in advance rather than after the transaction had been carried out by the Government. With my hon. friend's opinion in that regard I am in perfect agreement.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 95, respecting certain issues of Dominion notes.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.
At one o'clock the House took recess.
The House resumed at three o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 96, respecting the Premier Trust Company.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 97, respecting the Northwest Life Assurance Company.-Mr. McCraney.
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Austin McPhail Bothwell.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 99, for the relief of Agnes Gra-velle.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Clara Elizabeth Darnell.-Mr. McCranev.
97i
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Thomas Batin Harries.-Mr. Schaffner.
Bill No. 102, for the relief of William John Owen Delaney.-Mr. Porter.
Bill No. 103, for the relief of Edith May Webster Boydell.-Mr. Micnael Clark.
Bill No. 104, for the relief of William Robert Delaney.-Mr. Michael Clark.

[Stage Direction]
motion of Hon. Frank Cochrane (Minister of Railways and Canals), the House went into committee, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair, to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to enact as follows :	'
1.	That it is expedient to provide that the Minister of Railways and Canals may, subejct to the authority of the Governor in Council, construct, purchase, lease or otherwise acquire, in whole or in part, any railway, railway bridge] railway station, railway terminal, railway ferry or other railway work in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Is.and ; prov del that a copy of every such lease or contract shall be laid before Parliament ; and provided, further, that no railway so leased, purchased or otherwise acquired shall exceed two hundred miles in length; and provided. that no contract for the construction of a railway exceeding twenty-five miles in length shall be entered into until after a sum ot£f money for the purpose has been appropriated by Parliament; provided, further, that any such railway or other work when so constructed, leased or purchased, shall form part of the Government railway system; and provided that no such railway shall be so constructed, leased or otherwise acquired unless it directly connects with some part of the then existing Government railway system.
2.	That it is expedient to ratify and confirm an agreement dated the first day of August, 1914, between the Intercolonial Railway Company of New Brunswick, Thomas Malcolm, railway contractor, and His Majesty the King, for the sale to His Majesty of the railway and whole undertaking of the said company, extending from Campbellton, at the head of the Bay of Chaleurs, to St. Leonards, on the Saint John river, a distance of about one hundred and twelve miles, for the sum of two million seven hundred thousand dollars, payable any time within five years from the date of said agreement ; and to provide that, pending the payment of the purchase money, His Majesty may lease from the said company, for a period not exceeding five years from the date of said agreement, the said railway and undertaking at a rental of ninety thousand dollars per year, payable in equal half-yearly instalments, the first half-yearly payment of such rental to be made to the company on the first day of February, 1915 ; and to provide that the purchase money and rents payable by His Majesty may he paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada.
3.	That it is expedient to ratify and confirm an agreement dated the eighteenth day of March, 1915, between His Majesty the King
[Stage Direction]
and the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island Railway Company, for the sale to His Majesty of the whole of the railways and undertaking of the said company, including the main line of the railway of the company extending from Sackville, in the province of New Brunswick to Cape Tormentine, in the said province, a distance of about thirty-six miles, for the sum of two hundred and seventy thousand dollars; and to provide that, until the purchase price is paid, His Majesty shall pay to the company interest on the said purchase price at the rate of 4 per cent per annum from the first day of August, 1914, the first payment of such interest to be made on the first day of August, 1915, and thereafter on the first day of August in each year; and to provide that the purchase money and the interest payable by His Majesty may be paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada.
Mr. COCHRANE; This is simply a copy of the Bill that was introduced into this House two years ago. At that time the Senate unfortunately did not see eye to eye with this House. The second section of this resolution is to confirm an agreement for the purchase of the International railway, which starts from Campbellton and runs to St. Leonards, a distance of 112 miles. What has hurried on the purchase is the construction of the International bridge down there, which, but for this purchase, would have meant the taking away of a large amount of traffic from the Intercolonial. This line of railway will also be the means, I tjiink, of giving the shippers down there a cheaper rate to the New England States, and the Intercolonial will make nearly as much out of it as if it were carried around the other way. Physically the road is in very good shape, with the exception of one curve near Campbellton, and we hope to have an item in the estimates to provide for the straightening out of that part of the line. The third section of the resolution is to confirm the purchase of the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway, which we have bought with the object of connecting up the Intercolonial with the Prince Edward Island ferry. We are leasing the International railway for a certain number of years at a little less than 3i per cent on the purchase price, and have the option of purchase. As regards the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway we have to pay 4 per cent until the House passes the the legislation authorizing the purchase.
Wilfrid Laurier: When this
resolution first appeared on the Order Paper, it was in the form of three separate 'resolutions. It is true that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister told me he want-

ed to present it as one resolution. As to that I have no observation to make, but no reason has been given to me why we should have only one resolution when three 'separate and distinct subjects are dealt with. 1 think it would have been preferable to have three separate resolutions. The second and third sections of this resolution apply to railways intended to serve the public in the Maritime Provinces, and to those no objection can be taken. The resolution to acquire the International railway is not objectionable from the point of view of the Intercolonial, for it will facilitate business between the province of New Brunswick and the Eastern States. That is a praiseworthy object, and to it we on this side of the House can have no objection, nor can we object to the third section, which provides for the lease or purchase *of the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway.
But the first one is of such a character that I hope to have a fuller explanation of .it than has been given by the minister. It is a resolution to buy railways here, there and everywhere.
The Minister of Railways has pointed out that in the session of 1913, this legislation passed the House of Commons, but that an amendment was made to it in the Senate, which the Government did not accept, but which, for my part, I think there was a good deal of merit in. We are entitled to know what the minister intends to do under this legislation. A resolution such as this, so broad in its terms, has not been brought before Parliament a second time without the Minister of Railways having given it a good deal of consideration. The hon. gentleman does not designate in the resolution any of the railways or works he intends to take over, although I presume he must have in his mind some scheme. This legislation is due to the efforts of our late colleague, Mr. Emmer-son, who session after session brought to the attention of the House the desirability of the Intercolonial Railway acquiring all the branch lines connected with it, and which are not now operated by that system. His view was, that these branch lines should be operated by the Intercolonial for the benefit both of the Intercolonial and of the public generally, and everybody will agree that there is considerable merit in that proposition. It is a notorious fact that these branch lines give very little satisfaction to the phone, that the companies which operate them have not the means of putting them in first-class

condition, and that if they were administered by the Intercolonial Railway they perhaps would not be unprofitable for the' railway, while they would certainly be of great benefit to the people. It was contended that even if it involved a loss to the Intercolonial railway the loss would be more than compensated by the great advantage which would enure to the public. These views were presented repeatedly to the House by my late colleague and friend, Mr. Emmerson, until at last they impressed the Government, and hence this legislation. We should know from the minister now whether action under this legislation is intended to be confined simply to the branch lines connecting with the Intercolonial. There are these qualifying words in the resolution :
Provided that no such railway shall be so constructed, leased or otherwise acquired unless it directly connects with some part of the then existing Government railway system.
The words "then existing Government railway system" are new words in the resolution, and they would seem to apply to any Government railway which does not exist to-day, but which may exist at any time in the future. The Minister of Railways would have power to acquire railways, bridges, stations, or any other works, not only this year but next year, or ten years hence, if the Act is not repealed in the meantime. The words "then existing Government railway system" seem to me to confer upon the minister a very wide power. We are entitled to know from the minister to what works and railways he intends to apply this measure.


Mr. COCHRANE:: Hon. gentlemen will remember that during the election campaign of 1911, it was one of the planks of the Conservative platform that if the Conservatives came to power the Government would acquire the different branch lines along the Intercolonial, which it would be in the interests of the Intercolonial and of the country generally to acquire. A Bill was introduced in the session of 1911-12 in order to carry out that policy, but unfortunately it did not go through this House. It was again introduced in an amended form in the session of 1912-13, and passed this House, but was rejected in the Senate. The proposition is to acquire any railway covered by the resolution, any branch line along the Intercolonial railway or the Government railway, which it will be in the general public interest to acquire. At the present
time, the people living along these branch lines have to pay a double rate, the local rate and the through rate on the Intercolonial, and if these lines were acquired as part of the Intercolonial, the shippers would get the advantage of a through rate, which would be greatly beneficial to the community. It is a question whether some of the railways down there are worth very much, but I am not here to run down any branch line. I do not think the clause is so wide as my right hon. friend thinks, because its wording ties us down to branches connected with the Government railway system.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Intercolonial railway?


Francis Cochrane: Any government railway. I cannot see what objection there would be to this resolution, even if we were to extend the Intercolonial and acquire branch lines, if it, were in the public interest to acquire them.


Wilfrid Laurier: I want to know where we are and what is intended. We all understand what the Intercolonial railway is, and we know that the government railways to-day are confined to the Intercolonial and the Prince Edward Island railway. Later on, it is quite possible there may be other government railways, and this resolution would then cover all these railways acquired by the Government. I do not object to it, but I want to know what we are doing. I understand that the object of the minister to-day is to acquire branch lines of the Intercolonial, and the reasons he has given satisfy me, and I hope they will satisfy the House, that such is desirable. The hon. gentleman tells us that at present there is double management and that there are double rates, and that it would be to the advantage of the people that there should be one management and a through rate, and so far I quite agree with him. I agree that he should be allowed to acquire these branch lines, which at the present time have been built at the expense of the people of New Brunswick, and which do not give to the people all the advantage they should derive from them. As I understand the intention of my hon. friend, it is to acquire thoise branch lines. So far, so good. I take that as the policy of the Government.
That point being settled, I come to another point, that which was at issue between this House and the other branch of this Legislature. The amendment to

this Bill came into this House two years ago in the dying hours of the 'session. We had a rather hot session and perhaps were not as well disposed or as equable in temper as we are at the present time; but now that our blood has had time to cool off and that we can approach the question, in perfect good temper, I will present to my hon. friend the views expressed in the other branch of the Legislature. I was not in the House when the Bill passed through this Chamber two years ago. When I came back, I took up the amendments made by the other Chamber, and I was told that the Bill as it left 'this House bad been agreed to by both sides. That is true, I believe. My hon. friend, however, will agree with me that -the two .sides of the House, even when they are unanimous, may not be absolutely perfect, and no one will contend that, when the two sides have agreed upon something, that it is the incarnation of wisdom and that it is impossible to make any improvement.
Two different powers are granted to the Minister of Railways under this Bill. First of all, 'he is empowered to acquire any existing railway, there being no limitation upon his power except that such railway shall not exceed in length 200 miles. If the railway exceeds 200 miles, he has no power to purchase it. Then he is given power to construct any railway that he deems advantageous in the interest of the country, provided it does not exceed in length 25 miles. If he constructs such a railway, he is hound to bring the matter	before Parliament; but his
power is limited to this, that the money	must	he voted	by Parliament. Parliament has complete control over his action if he constructs a railway twenty-five miles in length, but Parliament is not given power over his action if he buys a railway of two hundred miles in length. There is no reason why the same rule should not apply in the one case as in the other, that is, that the action of my hon. friend, acting as Minister of Railways or as the Government, should be submitted to Parliament for ratification. All that the amendment of the other branch of the legislature proposed was that, whether the contract was for the purchase of a railway existing already or for the construction of a railway by the minister, the money should be voted by Parliament. That amendment is not only legitimate, but the very essence of parliamentary government. My hon. friend will rather hesitate to take upon him-

self the power to buy a railway 200 miles long, dispensing with the authority of Parliament, when the mere fact of a signed contract binds Parliament to accept it. My hon. friend should allow his resolution to be so amended as to conserve over it the control of Parliament. If he were disposed to accept it, I would suggest an amendment to that end. I do not know whether or not it would cover the ground absolutely, but at all events it would meet the case in some way. I move the following amendment:
That there be inserted in line 2 of section 1, after the word " lease " the words " either with or without an agreement to purchase."
That is to say, the minister can lease, and he can put into the lease a clause empowering him to purchase. That amendment would make the clause read as follows:
That it is expedient to provide that the Minister of Railways and Canals may, subject to the authority of the Governor in Council, construct, purchase, lease, either with or without an agreement to purchase, or otherwise acquire-[DOT]
I think there can be no objection to that amendment.
I also move the following amendment:
That in line 9 of section 1, there be inserted, after the words " entered into," the words, " or the purchase price of any such railway or other work be paid."
The section would then read as follows:
And provided that no contract for the construction of a railway exceeding 25 miles in length shall be entered into, or the purchase price of any such railway or other work be paid, until after the sum of money for the purpose has been appropriated by Parliament.
I move these two amendments without asking my hon. friend the minister at the present time either to approve or to reject them. He will do well to take them into consideration. It is well to meet the criticism of the other legislature, which seems to me to have been in the right direction.


Mr. MACDONALD:: While the Prime Minister is considering the amendment, I may say that I saw in one of the Government papers to-day a statement to the effect that the Government proposes to operate the National Transcontinental railway sys-tetrn as part of the Intercolonial. We ought to have a statement in regard to that announcement, which is an important one, in connection with this resolution.


Francis Cochrane: 
William John Macdonald: If that is so, the point made by my right hon. friend is very important, because if my hon. friend proceeds to operate the National Transcontinental railway as part of the Government railway system, then there will be power given to him under this first section to take over branch lines which may extend all the way to Winnipeg. That would be a very wide power. Will the minister tell me what are the branch lines which he contemplates taking over this year?


Robert Laird Borden: As far as the
first amendment proposed by the right hon. leader of the Opposition is concerned, there is no objection to it at all. So far as I understand the purport of the second amendment, it has this effect, that no contract for the construction of a railway exceeding 25 miles in length shall be entered into, or the purchase price of any such railway or other work be paid, until after the.sum of money for the purpose has been appropriated by Parliament. Perhaps that language might have been inserted so as to make the meaning clearer. As I understand it, the intention is that the Minister of Railways shall be given authority to pui chase a line of railway not exceeding 200 miles in length, but the price must not
, paid until the money has been appropriated therefor by Parliament. I do not suppose the money could really be paid until it has been voted by Parliament; therefore I really see no objection to what my hon. friend proposes.


Wilfrid Laurier: Under this legislation the Minister of Railways is empowered to make a contract. Of course, the money could not be paid unless voted by Parliament, but if Parliament gives to the minister the power to make an absolute contract, Parliament will be bound to vote the money later.


Robert Laird Borden: I quite understand my right hon. friend, and, if it is thought that this amendment will make the provision clearer, I have no objection to it. As to the other matter to which reference has been made, at the last session of Parliament the Minister of Railways and Canals was authorized by legislation then passed to operate any portion of the National Transcontinental railway at the completion
of the line, before the lease should be entered into. The difficulty-if there should be any difficulty, a discussion of which I shall not enter into at the present time-is this: that neither the statute nor the contract which provided for the construction of the National Transcontinental railway contains any definite method for quickly settling the question as to whether the joad at any time is so completed as to make it necessary that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company shall accept a lease. One would have expected to find in the statute some better method of determining that 'question than seems to be provided. In case any difficulty should arise, therefore-and I am not for a moment apprehending any difficulty-a delay might ensue over the period during which that particular question might be under consideration. That question would have to be determined in one of two ways: in the first place by agreement with the parties, or, in the second place, by the determination of some tribunal board of arbitrators, or court of law. If it should be necessary to resort to the second method-and I do not predict that it will be necessary-it is perfectly obvious that some delay would occur, and the Government would not like to have the road left in a situation which would prevent its being operated. That is to say, it is in the interest of the public, in the interest of the road itself, and in every conceivable interest, that there should be some operation during any necessary period for determining whether or not the road is completed to such an extent as to make it incumbent upon the company to accept a lease. It is purely that, I think, to which the Minister of Railways has reference. I should be perfectly willing to restrict this legislation so that it could have no possible application to any portion of the National Transcontinental railway which the Government might find it necessary to operate, because that is not in our mind at all. If any amendment is desired to that end, I shall be glad to consider it.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: As to the power to take branch lines, it may be said that there are no branch lines on tne Transcontinental Railway at the present time.


Robert Laird Borden: There is one, I think.


William Pugsley: If the Government were operating temporarily, wouiu the Transcontinental be a part of the Government

"system of railways? I hardly think it would, because I think that by statutory definition the Government system of railways consists of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island railways.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think
this legislation would cover the case of temporary operation by the Government of the National Transcontinental railway. All the Government has in mind is not to leave the National Transcontinental railway unoperated if any question should arise which might cause delay.


William John Macdonald: Would it be a part of the Government railway system?


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think so, but I am perfectly willing to have that made plain.


Wilfrid Laurier: We understand, then, that this legislation applies to the Intercolonial only?


Robert Laird Borden: And to the
Prince Edward Island railway. That is thoroughly understood.


William John Macdonald: Will the minister
say whether under this legislation he proposes to deal with the Vale railway?


Francis Cochrane: I do not think it is in the public interest that I should make any announcement as to what railways I intend to deal with.


William John Macdonald: I understand, you have made arrangements?


Francis Cochrane: Temporary arrangements were mads down there. The arrangement is not yet completed.


William John Macdonald: When are you going to tell us about it? .	..


Francis Cochrane: When it is completed.


[Stage Direction]
Amendments agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Cochrane thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 105, to amend the Government Railways Act and to authorize the purchase of certain railways.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	-


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. C. J. Doherty (Minister of Justice), Bill No. 93, to amend the
[Mr. Pugsley.l
Judges Act, was read the second time, considered in committee, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. J. Roche (Minister of the Interior), Bill No. 85, respecting seed grain, fodder and other relief, was read the second time, considered in committee, and reported.
Mr. Doherty moved the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. OLIVER:: Have the Premiers of Saskatchewan and Alberta been made aware of the contents of the Bill?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Frank Oliver: Verbatim?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Militia and Defence-transport and freight,

William John Macdonald: Last evening, I asked the Minister of Militia and Defence for a statement of the cost of the upkeep of the militia who were in service in British Columbia since the outbreak of the war up to the present time, and the minister promised to have it to-day.


Major General HUGHES:: 
William John Macdonald: And I understand that that amount is chargeable to the war expenditure?
Major-General HUGHES: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Does that cover the total expenditure made by the minister in British Columbia for war expenses?
Major-General HUGHES: Yes, and a number of these men have since gone to the front.


William John Macdonald: Are there two thousand men on duty now in British Columbia?


Major General HUGHES:: Fully that Many. We have one regiment in Vancouver, and one regiment of cavalry, a regiment of infantry being organized, all for the front, and one in Westminster, a'=^ for the front.


William John Macdonald: I was not speaking of those volunteering for overseas service.


Major General HUGHES:: The only ones we have on home duty are the guards along the railway.


William John Macdonald: This expense of over a million dollars given by the minister is for militia on service in British Columbia.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


Mr. KYTE:: 
Major General HUGHES:: The memorandum will appear in Hansard, and I shall have great pleasure in bringing it before council.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: I take this opportunity of again protesting against the very unfair action of the Government in refusing to extend the provisions of this Act to the province of Prince Edward Island. There are a number of men still living in that province who, at the time of the Fenian Raid, volunteered in defence of their country, and who drilled under considerable difficulty and at very considerable expense to themselves, and whose case has been refused consideration at the hands of this Government.
It is unfair; it is unjust. There are a number of men living in Prince Edward Island at present who at the time of the raid lived in Nova Scotia. These men have had their bounties, and in discussing the matter with their neighbours have admitted that at the time of the raid they did no more than the men on Prince Edward Island, in fact not even so much. I think nothing could be more unfair than this discrimination against Prince Edward Island, and I hope that the Government, even at this late date, will take the matter into consideration; and the Government should above all things he absolutely fair to all sections of the Dominion. There is no reason in the world why Prince Edward Island should be singled out for this unfair treatment, and I must enter my protest against it even at this late date.


J 546 COMMONS
Major General HUGHES:: In Nova Scotia we have the clear records, but we have not been able to get clear records as regards Prince Edward Island. If it can be shown that any injustice had been done, or if we can get clear records as regards Prince Edward Island, I am sure that the Prime Minister and his colleagues will be glad to take the matter up.


James Joseph Hughes: We pointed out, when this matter was before Parliament last year, that the only difference between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island was a technical difference. The men in Nova Scotia were called out by proclamation while the men in Prince Edward Island were called out by a special Act of Parliament passed by the local legislature. Surely a special Act of Parliament should be just as good.evidence as the proclamation calling out the men from Nova Scotia.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Anything that the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) or the hon. member who has just spoken (Mr. Hughes) or I can do to strengthen the hands of the minister and his colleagues in trying to get this bounty paid to the widows of deceased veterans, we shall be very glad to do. One thing has been settled by this Government, and that is the principle that the Eenian Raid veterans are entitled to this recognition of $100 each; and the minister should have no trouble in keeping the Government up to that principle which they have already established and on which they have already paid out so much money. If there is any good reasoning at all about this payment of money-I am not finding fault with it-the money is paid on the principle that the veteran who came out and served his country has earned this money, that he is entitled to this $100 because at	the	time	of the raidhe volunteered and put himself in a position to	defend	his country.
According to that principle the volunteer has earned the money as soon as he has rendered that service. Now whether he dies early in life or late does not alter the position at all, because it is the act of bravery and sacrifice that he performed for his country in 1866 that has given rise to this right for himself or for his family. The fact that he died before the first day of April 1912 cannot change that principle at all. The Government has thought proper to pay the bounty to the widows of men who died since the first day of April, 1912. They are paying the bounty to the widows and heirs of veterans who served in 1866,

and were living on the first day of April 1912, but died before they got the bounty. I wish to bring home to the minister if I can, that as far as sound reasoning is concerned, the widow of the man who died two years ago has mo better right to this money than the widow of the man -who died four years ago. That is a mere accident of time, a mere accident of a long or a short life; iand that is all the difference between the two. If the widow of the man who died last summer is entitled to this money and has got it, should not the bounty be also given to the widow of the man who died three or ten years ago, or at any time since he put himself in a position to be entitled to this money? I think that is fair, and sound logic. The minister should put all the widows and all the veterans in the same class, no matter whether some of the veterans happened to die some months or years before this Act was passed on the 1st day of April, 1912.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: I am glad to have the opportunity of raising my voice on behalf of those widows who I think are unjustly discriminated against. I have had the honour of presenting to the Minister of Militia a petition signed by about one hundred petitioners from the county I have the honour to. represent. It seems to me these widows are just 'as much entitled to the bounty as those who have received it. The argument put up by my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Air. McKenzie) covers the ground so well that I have nothing further to say, except to express my hope that the minister will see his way to doing this act of justice.


Wilfrid Laurier: within the boundaries of the Valeartier Camp site, lias reported that he has been unable to come to satisfactory terms with you for the purchase of your property as shown above, you having refused the sum of $2,700 for the same.
I have the honour to offer you, with a view to obviating the necessity of taking expropriation proceedings and without prejudice, the sum of $3,000 for the property now in question. This offer will remain open until December 1st next.
If this offer is not accepted, it will be necessary to have the price to be paid to you determined by the Exchequer Court.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
E. F. Jarvis,
Asst. Deputy Minister.
To this offer of $300 more than the first offer, the following reply was sent:
Quebec, November 25, 1914.
The Secretary,
Militia Council,
Headquarters, Ottawa.
Sir:
Re the King vs, Jos. Griffin.
Your letter, number 67-69-1 of the 16th inst. offering $3,000 for lots 30 and 31 of Valeartier, has been referred to us by our client. We are instructed to state that this offer is not accepted and that Mr. Griffin will feel very much obliged if you will kindly start immediate proceedings, by way of information, before the Exchequer Court, to have the indemnity determined.
Yours truly.
Taschereau, Roy, Cannon, Parent
& Fitzpatrick.
That letter was written on the 25th November. The matter was brought to the attention of the House some four weeks ago, and the minister informed me that the cases in which the owners of the land had refused the compensation offered them had been placed in the Department of Justice and that the Department of Justice had taken or was taking proceedings to have the matter adjudicated in court. A discussion took place on the matter in this House about the 1st fii March, and on the 5th of March, I received from Mr. Cannon a letter in which he states:	.
I have read with great interest the debate which took place the other day between you and Colonel Hughes on the subject of the manner in which the farmers of Valeartier are treated.
I represent Frank McLaughlin, Hugh Bowles, Madame Veuve Conway, Thomas Thompson, Michael Woodlock and Joseph Griffin, and notwithstanding all my efforts I have not yet succeeded in having proceedings in the Exchequer Court to fix the amount of the indemnity.
I replied to Mr. Cannon, whom I know very well, asking him if I was to understand that up to that date nothing had been done before the Exchequer Court, and on the 10th of March he wrote me:

I have received your letter of the 8th, and I must tell you again that notwithstanding all my efforts we have not yet succeeded in obtaining the least satisfaction, and that no proceedings out of the Court of Exchequer have yet been served upon my clients.
On the 25th of November last, the department was asked to have the matter started at,once in the Exchequer Court, and up to the 10th of March no proceeding had yet been taken. I ask the Minister of Militia and I ask the Government if such negligence is not almost criminal? These people are in fair circumstances, but they are not millionaires, and having been deprived of their land they should have been paid compensation long ago, or the matter should have been promptly taken to the Court. Mr. Cannon, who belongs to one of the'leading law firms in the province of Quebec, represents seven or eight of these people. Yesterday morning I received a letter from another party, who was not a client of Mr. Cannon's, appealing still more and bringing a very sad case to my notice. I am sorry to say that it must reflect very severely upon the administration of the department. This is the letter I have received :
Valeartier Village, Que.,
March 23, 1915.
To Sir Wilfrid Laurier:
Sir,-I am taking the liberty of addressing you on behalf of my own family with regard to this land which is being taken up for the " Artillery Camp.", Our land is 120 acres and runs up to the camp ground from the Valeartier road, 75 acres or so being in a line with those large mountains, which part we agreed to sell at a moderate rate.
My husband's people have owned this land for a century, and, although it is not a model farm, have made a living on it. On Septemoer 4, 1914, the agent in charge of the camp sent a gang of men and tore down our fences, even a garden patch; and as the crop was not taken up, it was completely destroyed by the horses and cattle, while we were ordered to keep our cattle in the barn away from the shooting range. Now we have not received one cent for all this damage and have had to buy feed for our cattle at present rates. We have a family to keep, school, clothe, etc., and as last spring my husband had to go through a very dangerous and expensive operation in hospital, we cannot afford to lose our last year's crop. I am sure this matter has not been investigated by proper authorities or we would never be so abused.
The spring coming so soon and nothing settled leaves a poor lookout for us farmers. For confirmation of my statements I refer you to Mr. A. Robertson, K.C., 61 St. Peter street, Que. He has our bill and understands the case.
I am, yours very respectfully,
(Sgd.) Mrs. Rich. Smith.
To-day is the 26t.h of March. This is a poor family whose property has been ex-

propriated. Must I appeal to the 'sensibilities and the good feeling of my hon. friend the minister ? He should take this case to heart and see that those people at once receive what is their fair due. This family is in sad circumstances through the sickness of the bread-winner; the wife .appeals to me, and I appeal to the minister that this outrage should not be perpetrated any longer.


Major General HUGHES:: 
Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. We have done everything in our power to meet the wishes of those people in that regard, and to have the matter amicably settled, letting the people go to other homes. The department is now taking the ground that any one who does not settle immediately will have his case put into the Exchequer Court.


Wilfrid Laurier: That answer
is not at all satisfactory. I am told to-day that the matter will be put into the hands of the Exchequer Court. I have produced a letter from the attorney of one of those people asking on the 25th of November last tnat the matter should be at once put into the hands of the Exchequer
Court, and I am told on the 26th of March that that will be done. It should have been done months ago. There is no possible excuse for its not having been done before. That there have been differences of opinion between the man who receives the money and the man who pays it is natural enough. A man by the name of Griffin was offered $2,700 and that was not accepted. That offer was increased to $3,000 and it was not accepted. His attorney said: " We ask you as a favour to have the matter brought before the Exchequer Court." That occurred on the 25th of November. I have the authority of counsel for saying that on the 10th of March it was not done. To-day the only satisfaction which I receive from my hon. friend the minister is that the matter will be brought into court immediately. I complain that the matter was not attended to long ago when it should have been attended to.


Major General HUGHES:: The right hon. gentleman mentions a man of the name of Griffin. I do not know whether there is more than one person of that name at Valcartier, but in the last week of September, a man of the name of Griffin told me that he was well satisfied with his valuation and that he was willing to leave his own farm. He thought it . would be to his advantage to move, as a great many people, before we went to Valcartier at all, had been forced to leave the land because it was so poor in quality, and they had gone to Quebec and done remarkably well. I was very much astonished to find that that gentleman had held out.


Robert Laird Borden: The Crown has very extraordinary powers with regard to expropriation of land for public purposes, and those powers are necessary. By a mere filing of a plan and description in the registry office, the title of the occupant and the titles of all persons interested become absolutely vested in the Crown. In addition to that, it is not competent for the person in occupation of the land to take any proceedings himself, because under a statute amending the former Expropriation Act, -which was passed fourteen or fifteen years ago, the proceedings must be instituted by the Crown. I therefore entirely agree that there should be prompt action when a man's property is taken and the price cannot be agreed upon. In some of those cases there was a price agreed upon, and afterwards the person who had orally

or otherwise agreed to accept a certain figure thought that he was entitled to more. That would naturally be a reason for some delay. I take the view, however, that when it is once definitely ascertained that a price cannot be agreed upon between the Crown and a person whose land is being expropriated, then there should be no delay whatever in getting the matter to the Exchequer Court, because until the matter has been settled there, the man cannot obtain his money. Therefore I hope there will be no further delay in putting into the Exchequer Court the ease of any man whose property is expropriated, when there is any difference of opinion as to the price. I can assure my right hon. friend that, being impressed by that view, I will take some personal interest in the matter and confer with my hon. friend the Minister of Militia and with the Department of Justice, and ascertain the reasons for the delay and see that there shall not be further unnecessary delay in getting these matters settled.


Sir   W ILFRID LAURIER@: I am very glad to hear from the Prime Minister that he will take an interest himself in these matters. I know very well that there are differences of opinion and that sometimes a man may be asking too much. In any such case, the matter should be at once put into the Exchequer Court.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: I would not ask the indulgence of the committee, even for a few minutes, were it not that I desire to, correct a curious error which my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) fell into last night. I was not present when he commenced his speech, but I have had an opportunity of reading it in Hansard. He produced a number of affidavits which he read to the committee. It will be remembered by hon. members who have taken an interest in the discussion about the 17th Regiment of Nova Scotia, that I read a memorandum a few days ago signed by a number of soldiers who had been connected in some way with the 17th Battalion. This memorandum purported to corroborate the statements made by the Morning Chronicle, and to be signed by these gentlemen. I ivish to make it clear to the House and to the Minister of Militia that I had nothing to. do with the preparation of that memorandum. It was sent to me by Mr. Crowell, a reporter of the Morning Chronicle. In justice to Mr. Crowell, I thought it proper to lay it before the committee. The hon. member for Cumberland comes on [Sir Robert Borden.l
with a long list of affidavits from soldiers whose names were not on the memorandum. Why he produced these affidavits I find it difficult to understand. The first affidavit is from Robert Aldridge, of Toronto. He tells us a long story about Spas Stackoff, who, it appears, signed a paper and got a cigar for signing it. I do not know who Robert Aldridge is. He is not one of thfi men who signed the paper which I presented to the House-he does not figure in that paper at all. The next affidavit read by my hon. friend is by Mr. Stackoff himself. He tells a long story, and says he signed a paper and got a cigar. But he did not sign the paper I presented. The only document before the committee with the name of Stackoff on it is the one presented by the hon. member for Cumberland. I can only assume that Mr. Stackoff must have got a cigar for signing that 'paper.


Mr. RHODES:: I never saw this interesting memorandum to which the hon. gentleman refers. Has he the memorandum?


John Howard Sinclair: I haven't it here.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Can the hon. member get it?


John Howard Sinclair: I can.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The original?


John Howard Sinclair: The original is in Mr. Crowell's hands. I can get it for my hon. friend. A correct copy of it is in Hansard, and if the hon. gentleman will refer to it he will find that his friends, Stackoff and Aldridge, are not named there. So, they could not have got a cigar for signing that memorandum. The name on the next affidavit is William Thomas Oldridge, of London, Ontario. My hon. friend may know who he is; I do not. This gentleman says that Mr. Stackoff could not read. That is interesting information in itself, but I do not see how it concerns the House at this time. He says also that Stackoff signed a document and got a cigar. But William Thomas Oldridge did not sign the memorandum that I submitted to the House. If he got a cigar for signing a document it must have been for signing the affidavit submitted by the hon. member for Cumberland. These soldiers seem to have received cigars for signing papers. But as they did not sign the paper I submitted to the House,
I cannot see any .reason for reading these affidavits. The next affidavit is by Albert Harris, of Toronto.	This is
another man whom I never heard of before and whose name does not ap-

pear on the document I submitted. I do not wish to weary the committee going over the matter, but I want to point out that my hon. friend could not have read the memorandum sent to me by Mr. Crowell or he would not have read these affidavits.
Also, I would point out that at the time when he was dealing with these affidavits, the hon. gentleman must have had in his possession the letter of his friend Colonel Struan Robertson. He must have known what that hon. gentleman said in regard to these matters. It does not interest us very much what these other men from other parts of the country did or did not know about it. There are also two men from my hon. friend's constituency, Captain Bent and Captain Cutten who signed the memorandum read by my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte.) If, as I understand, these men come from Cumberland, my hon. friend (Mr. Rhodes) will probably know them and know whether they are men to be depended - upon or not. We have statements from them similar to those published in the Morning Chronicle at the time, and I would like to know whether or not we can depend upon anything they say.
I do not wish to delay the committee, but the whole difficulty seems to have arisen from the appointment of Colonel Struan Robertson to the command, an'd the only man responsible for that is the Minister of Militia. The minister, I understand, passed over other men who were entitled by seniority to the position which Mr. Robertson got. Mr. Robertson was a competent man, or he was not a competent man. If he was competent, the Minister of Militia should have stood by him and helped him through; if he was not competent the minister should have dismissed him and put a competent man in his place. That, it appears to me, is the whole story. It is for the minister to explain why this man failed so badly in the management of the Nova Scotia battalion. When he found that Colonel Robertson was not getting along very well in the position in which he had placed him and that he had not enough men to form a battalion, he should have sent for him, taken him into his tent, talked it over with him and assisted him to send back to Nova Scotia to recruit men. Men could easily have been had. The proof of that is that since that date a regiment has been recruited in that province. If the minister had stood by Colonel Robertson there would have been no trouble about it. He seems
to have got into an altercation and into trouble with him. It is not for me to explain that. He should have done one' thing or the other-he should have stood by Colonel Robertson loyally and made the battalion a success, or he should have dismissed him and put one of the other men who, I am told, are competent men, in his place, so that the battalion would have had a chance to be of service to the country. That is the whole question, and it seems to me that the Minister" of Militia has not yet given us a satisfactory explanation of this matter.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Knowing the persistency of the hon. member for Guysborough, I should be the last person in the world to enter into a verbal controversy with him in this committee, because I could never expect to succeed in having the last word. But he has made one or two remarks to-day which, I think, call for a few words from me. It is unfortunate that the hon. gentleman should continue from day to day to mention this matter even in a mild and brief way, because it serves only to accentuate the feeling of disquietude and unrest on the part of the friends at heme of those who are now at the front. The hon. member for Guysborough can serve but one purpose in bringing this matter to the attention of the committee, and that is the making of political capital for himself and his friends in the province of Nova Scotia.


John Howard Sinclair: The person chiefly concerned in this matter is the hon. gentleman's own political friend.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member for Guysborough, in common with other hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, fail utterly to grasp the significance of this question. If there is anything in it at all, it is a matter respecting the regiment concerned and the province which it represents. I say respectfully but sincerely that the fact that there are in this matter considerations above and beyond Major Struan Robertson or any other individual or group of individuals, seems to be too comprehensive to be grasped by the hon. gentleman's intellect. The point at issue is a matter affecting not particularly Major Struan Robertson, or Brown or Smith, but a regiment representing a province; I say this without the least desire to give offence to the hon. member for Guysborough. The hon. member is entirely too sensitive; he apparently thinks that any remarks which I made in regard to this matter last night were addressed particularly to himself.


John Howard Sinclair: Oh, no.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Or t,o his memorandum. It. was quite open t.o me to read the affidavit of Stackoff or of any other person which had particular reference to the matter under discussion. The hon. member for Guysborough admits that he read to the committee what purported to be a copy of the memorandum, the original of which is in the hands of Mr. Crowell of the Halifax Chronicle. I think it is incompetent and unfair for the hon. member to say that the memorandum which he read is a fair copy unless he has seen the original, and having compared it with the one in his possession, is thereby enabled to make that assertion. While I was not present when these affidavits were prepared, I have every reason to believe that while they were made by men whose names did not appear upon the memorandum read by the hon. member for Guysborough. They may have been made by men who signed the memorandum which was the original of the one read by the hon. member for Guysborough, some of the names on which had been erased. They may have been made by men who signed statements which were used in Halifax and which possibly appeared in the Halifax Morning Chronicle. But the argument of the hon. member was purely specious. If he will look carefully at his memorandum he will find" that these names were mentioned in it: H. Clarson; David Walters, of Cayuga, Ont.; H. Dobson, 577 La Salle road, Verdun, Montreal; W. H. Stearn, Lakehurst, Ont. I read affidavits signed by each of these four men, and I submit that this was perfectly good and competent evidence for me to submit.


John Howard Sinclair: I wish to correct the hon. gentleman: Walter Stearn, of Peterborough, not W. H. Stearn, of Lakehurst, Ont., was the man whose affidavit was read.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There may be some difference in the addresses, but my impression is that W. H. Stearn, whose affidavit I read last night, is the same man whose name is said to appear in the memorandum read by my hon. friend. To continue this discussion from day to day can serve no useful purpose, unless, possibly, that of gaining some small political advantage. I say possibly, because I do not believe that you can make small political capital out of 'a big question like this. And I believe that the people of the province of Nova Scotia are

patriotic enough, big-minded and broadminded enough, not to be misled by any small side issues which may be brought up while a great world war is taking place. It would be far better to leave this matter in abeyance until the men return from the front, because we cannot submit competent proof of the truth or falsity of the various statements until they do return. In the meantime, I think we ought to put our shoulders to the wheel, forget these small differences, and let the matter rest quietly. The Morning Chronicle, I think, made a very serious mistake-I say this not from a partisan standpoint-in publishing Mr. Crowell's letter, and those who read that paper observe that they regret the publication of that letter, because they are climbing down gracefully. But let us forget that. I am sure that if hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House will let the matter rest quietly, we on this side will do the same. I am not authorized to speak for the Minister of Militia and the Government, but I am sure that they are most anxious that the fullest and most complete inquiry shall be made into this whole affair when the proper time arrives.


John Howard Sinclair: No man likes the quiet life more than I do, but I wish to point out to my hon. friend that he misled the committee last night-not intentionally, I suppose-in reading these affidavits, because many hon. gentlemen supposed that they were made by the same men who had signed the memorandum which I had read to the committee, that these men signed the memorandum for a cigar, and that they did not know what they were signing. It turns out, however, that the great majority of the men whose affidavits were read by the hon. gentleman were not the same men at all, and that they had not signed the memorandum to which I referred. That was my reason for bringing up the matter again this afternoon, and I think my hon. friend will appreciate my attitude in the matter, because I do not think he would wish to leave a wrong impression upon the minds of hon. gentlemen of the committee.


Frank Oliver: What was the reason
which led to the purchase and fitting up of Valcartier camp", and what did it cost?


Major General HUGHES:: The department has been for a number of years selecting manoeuvring points in the military divisions of the country. We have one at Medicine, Hat, one near Moosejaw, which

has not been used much as yet, one at Seweli, Manitoba, a small area in Toronto, the Petawawa camp and so on. We have camps in various military divisions in order to avoid the expense of transporting the troops for long distances'! A few years ago I pointed out to the House that in three years the cost of transporting the troops of each division to one central camp would pay the cost of these various manoeuvring areas. It was with the object of avoiding this expense that we looked up a manoeuvring area for Quebec.
Quebec being a very important summer seaport, it was deemed advisable to select the area as near the city as possible, and it has been generally conceded that the department was fortunate in securing the area at Valcartier. I have not the figures of the cost, but I shall be glad to furnish them.


Frank Oliver: I am to understand that
the camp at Valcartier was not purchased with any relation to the existing war conditions; it was merely in carrying out the ordinary policy of the department?


Major General HUGHES:: During the summer, before war broke out at all, we had taken a portion of the land; then, when the war broke out, we took the balance of the present area.


Frank Oliver: I wish to have it thoroughly understood that the purchase of the camp ait Valcartier was in pursuance of the general policy of the department and had no relation to the existence of war conditions. Therefore I presume it is paid for out of the'ordinary militia appropriation.
In regard to rifle ranges, I should like to impress upon the minister, what perhaps is not necessary, that at a time like the present, when it is desirable that there should be an expansion of military knowledge, of which the most essential part is the use of the rifle, the department might very well give special attention to the securing and the fitting up of rifle ranges for the use not only of the enrolled militia but also of the civilian population who take an interest in rifle practice. At Edmonton the Government possesses a rifle range in a convenient situation which has not been in use and has not been replaced. I think it most important that if that range is not available it should be replaced by some other range. There is a large centre of population there, a large number of people who desire to practise rifle shooting, partly as a measure of amusement and partly as a military pre-98
paration. They have been debarred from doing so during the strenuous conditions that have existed during the past six months. Has the minister had in hand the securing of a convenient rifle range in the vicinity and what progress has been made and what are the prospects there?


Major General HUGHES:: I am glad the hon. member has brought this matter up and by his criticism has given me support in this matter. We have a rifle range at Edmonton, but it is right in the city, and there are houses right in the line of fire. While there is not any legal process which prevents us from using it, it is not what we call a safe range, and therefore we did not feel inclined to use it on account of the danger. We had selected a site eight or nine miles south of Edmonton, but there was no means of getting there unless we chartered a train every time we wanted to take men to the range. I was assured that there was a probability of a street car line being extended to the west of the city out towards the Indian reserve, and I would like to have my hon. friend look over the map with me sometime, when I would point out to him two or three places we have had in mind. The only objection to them
5 p.m. is that at present they are inaccessible. My officers have looked around Edmonton in every direction. Between Edmonton and Fort Saskatchewan the land is very dear, and down the valley it is practically all in use for other purposes. North of the city we have no proper land. I would be glad to receive any suggestion from the hon. gentleman, because it is a very important matter. We can sell the range we now have in Edmonton, even at a fair price, which would more than pay for a very extensive range.


Frank Oliver: While the range now owned by the Government is within the city limits, there has not been such an increase in building in the line of fire as would lead one to believe that the range was unduly dangerous. I quite appreciate that it is within the city limits with buildings liable to be erected within the line of fire, and that it is not desirable that this range should be considered a permanent one; but I certainly do think that during the past half year, when considerable interest was taken in militia matters, a special case might very well have been made for the opening of rifle practice upon that range. I really think that the militia authorities



have not shown that interest in the matter that they might very well have shown. As to what may be done in the spring, I would still urge on the minister a careful examination of the existing range and of the ground likely to be dangerously occupied in its neighbourhood. If arrangements could be made that would allow rifle practice to be carried on with a reasonable degree of safety until such time as the department might be able to secure another convenient range, it would be a distinct advantage. It must be remembered that this particular range is very conveniently situated and that there is no possibility of getting another as conveniently situated. Therefore, there is an object in using that range if on careful examination it is found to be practicable. I am a little afraid that when that range was rejected the rejection was made rather because of real estate speculation than because of the actual circumstances of the case; and as real estate speculation is not as buoyant as it was, possibly, on reexamination, the decision of the department might be reversed.


Major General HUGHES:: We are not negligent in the matter. Not only have I had the engineers of the department examine the locality, but I have examined it myself. In the line of fire there are within one and a half miles of the rear of the target twenty or thirty houses, if not more. The rule is that a range to be safe must have a 400-foot hill or embankment in the rear, or a 2,500 yards area free of houses. At Bisley a few years ago, during rifle practice, a child was killed who was standing 5,000 yards in the rear. The bullet glanced from the frozen ground and struck her. If the hon. member will just try to picture a distance of 2,500 yards-and a bullet will easily go that distance-he will see that at the place he speaks of a bullet might very easily go right out to his own property, or if it were shot in the other direction thirty or forty houses would be right in the line of fire. I know that an agitation was got up at the time, and I think it was due to the very thing that my hon. friend speaks of. The place is quite unsafe for a range. Our engineers have examined it, and I have looked at it myself on two occasions within the last year and a half. The hill is not 400 feet high; it is only 190 feet.


Frank Oliver: It would not be profitable for me to argue with the minister, but my understanding of the situation is not identical with his. I do not think that there are
	'	,
houses behind, as my ' hon. friend says. However, all I ask is that a re-examination be made of the place to ascertain the actual facts, not with a view to using it as a permanent range, but simply as a temporary expedient, so that those who desire to have rifle practice may be able to gel it, pending the securing of an adequate range. I understand that the range at. Port Saskatchewan is in much the same position, and I would ask that it be re-examined too, with a view to its being used in the spring as a temporary range until a permanent one can be secured. I quite appreciate that the securing of a permanent range is a very serious matter.


Major General HUGHES:: If the hon.
member knows aiiy safe range near Edmonton that would do for the time being, I shall be glad to rent it in order that the boys can get practice during the coming weeks. I would send out my engineers right away.


Frank Oliver: I would certainly appreciate it very much if the minister could locate temporary ranges. I know that a large number of people are eager to get rifle practice.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I do not wish to interfere with the more important work of the committee, but there is a matter which I have already brought to the notice of the minister in regard to military matters in my part of the country, and which I feel I should not be doing my duty to myself, to my constituents or to the public generally if I did not bring it publicly to the notice of the Minister of Militia and of the Prime Minister. In the part of the Dominion from which I come I am proud to -say that we have responded in the most hearty manner to the call of- our country in respect to everything that could be done to show our desire to assist in the strenuous fight that the country is now putting up not only for its own protection, but lor the protection of every part of the Empire. We are always glad to assist in whatever is going on in our part of the country in furthering that cause. I must complain to the minister that while sons of all families, irrespective of politics, were coming out, whenever any little favour was to be shown, whenever a dollar was to be spent or anything done that would be of any profit, then the party line was drawn as rigidly and as closely as ever it could be drawn; and I wish to bring home to the minister that he and everybody under him connected with that matter were of the narrowest possible kind ol partisans. For that alone,

however, I would not bring this matter up; but when militarism, and partyism, and Toryism get together for the purpose of interfering with the administration of justice in the High Couit of Justice in the province of Nova Scotia, it is time that the people of this Dominion should know where such interference comes from, and whether it is going to be tolerated. During last November, I think it was, a very serious and important action was being tried in the county of Victoria. A man in the militia was an important witness in the case. A subpoena was served upon him and his conduct money given to him at the city of Sydney. I was counsel in tne case, and I went to the colonel in command and said as respectfully as I could; " There is a man in your camp here who is a witness in an important case in the county of Victoria. He has been served with a subpoena from the Supreme Court and has been given his conduct money, and I hope you will let him go." xie positively told me, " No, I will not let him go." He knew what the case was, he knew it was an election trial, and he was a Tory himself. He told me bluntly, " I will not let him go." "We then took steps to get an order from the omcer at Halifax, whose name I forget, but he was a gentleman, fie issued an order that this man should attend the court under escort, that the escort should take him there and bring him back. That was perfectly satisfactory, and, I presume, according to the proper rules of the service. But the other officer was not to be outdone. He learned that this order had been issued over his head, and what did he do? He gave orders that the man should leave camp in civilian clothes, and the man was taken in charge by some Tory henchmen and stolen out of the country and landed in St. John's, Newfoundland. He was kept there for fully a week until they thought the trial was over. Then the men who stole him out of the country and took him to Newfoundland thought it was safe to leave him. They left the man, and he came back to Canada. We found out that he had returned and sent officers after him. We put him on the stand and he told his story. He told the story that he was stolen from the camp, and that he went out in civilian clothes by order of the officer in charge. They never looked for him; they knew where he was, and that there were parties who were going to steal him out of the couniry so that he should not give evidence. But he gave evidence on oath, which is a matter of record in the province, 98i
how he was stolen out of the country, and how he was permitted to leave camp. His name is Walter Tickner. Why was he wanted as a witness? He was wanted because during a certain election in the county of Victoria he was sent as pilot with four personators. These four personators were taken from the county of Cape Breton into the county of Victoria for the purpose of voting. They had no business to vote; it was well known they had not a vote in the county of Victoria, but these four men who were strangers in the county were guided by this fellow to a place called Middle River, where they swore falsely to certain names and voted. The man then took them to North Gut, where again they swore falsely to certain names and voted. They voted twice on the same day. This man Tickner was required as a witness in the election trial, but the Tory machine, headed by Mr. Douglas, Mr. Muirhead and Dr. Hayes, stole him out of the country. The officers of the militia were hand in glove with them and helped them to take him out of the country, and they tried, if possible, to prevent him giving evidence before the Supreme Court of our province. I wrote that to the minister very shortly after the. trial, but from that day to this I am not aware that the slightest action has been taken. The officers who were parties to stealing this man out of the country are still in charge as they were, and I never heard there was any complaint made about them. When conduct of that kind is committed by a minister of the Crown, by colonels and officers and generals in this country, and an attempt made to carry out small, dark, dirty politics, I think it is my duty, standing in this House, to let the country at large know what the Premier knows, that - that is the way some of the money voted here is being used, and that instead of being used for the defence of the country it is used for defending the low intrigues of such men as Dr. Hayes, J. C. Douglas, M.P.P. and Mr. Muirhead. I say I would not be doing justice to this great country, and I would not have a proper conception of the administration of justice in this country, if I did not bring this matter to the attention of the House.


Major General HUGHES:: I received a communication from the hon- member (Mr. McKenzie), and I immediately asked for a report. The report furnished to me was that this soldier had been sent on some mission and had been absent for some time, and

that he returned and' gave evidence on the trial. If my "memory serves me right, I was informed that the officer in charge was one of the staunchest Liberals in the country, a gentleman by the name of Major McLean. I do not know whether I am talking by the card or not, but the report to me was along these lines; that is, from the military view point, and I do not let political squabbles interfere at all in these matters. The soldier, on the occasion of my visit, happened to be the sergeant of the guard, I remembered his name, having heard it from my hon. friend, and I made further inquiries from the military view point, and I was told on that occasion that there had been nothing irregular, that the order had been given from Halifax in proper form, and that before the order was received the man had been sent on his mission. I was -assured at the time that the officer in command was one of the staunchest of Liberals, and a supporter of my hon. friend.
_ Mr. McKENZIE: The Minister of Militia is certainly misled on that point, because this man came into Major McLean's command a long time after the trial was over and after he had come back from Newfoundland. But, when he was serving in Sydney and >vhen he was spirited out of the country, he was under the charge of Colonel McRae. Major McLean had nothing to do with him until a long time after the trial was over.


John Howard Sinclair: There are about one hundred men stationed at Canso, N.S., protecting the cable station, and when I was at Canso last fall j was 'informed that these young men had no opportunity to practise rifle shooting. I was told they had made application to the department to be allowed to do some rifle shooting, and I thought it would be very desirable if their request were acceded to. I wrote the minister at the time and he was kind enough to reply that he was having the matter looked into. Have any steps been taken to establish -a rifle range there, so as to enable these young men who are guarding the cable station, to practise shooting?


Major General HUGHES:: I have taken steps at all these 'Stations where there are troops to have them allowed from 50 to 75 rounds per man for practice. In some places rifle shooting is dangerous, and we must first look to 'the safety of the people. Canso is one of the places I was unable to visit when I was in the Maritime Prov-

inces, but I was ait Sydney Mines, North Sydney, Glace Bay, and other places. I was ishocked to see the places in which our soldiers were obliged to stay. They were as fine-looking a lot of soldiers as one could find in the wide world; splendid-looking fellows and well up in their drill. The places they slept in were ill-lighted, and without water or baths, and I immediately gave orders that there should be electric lights and water and baths installed. The order was a general one, and I presume it was carried out in Canso.


Frank Oliver: There are throughout the country schools for training officers, and not being a military man I would like the minister to explain what results are expected from these training schools.


Robert Laird Borden: That, will all be found in yesterday's Hansard.


Major General HUGHES:: A great many boys have gone to the front .and we want officers for the regular militia.and for the corps that are to be raised, and these officers have to be trained. We take any young man who is a militiaman, and if he is not a militiaman we male him one, if he is sound mentally and physically, we give him an opportunity to train. Xnese schools are turning out a lot of fin} boys all over the Dominion, ready to take the places of the boys who have already gone to the front.


Frank Oliver: That is a very general statement, but as the information was given more in detail yesterday, I shall look at it, in Hansard.


John Howard Sinclair: It, is stated that a committee of the Cabinet was appointed to purchase supplies when the Minister of Militia was absent. Would the minister state if this committee is yet in existence, and of what ministers is it composed?


Robert Laird Borden: I have prepared the fullest information about That and will give it on the War Appropriation measure tomorrow.
Militia and Defence-training areas, $200,000.


Frank Oliver: In what localities are further training areas to be secured?


Major General HUGHES:: AVe have provided for them in British Columbia, but we have not located them yet. AVe have one in southern Alberta, but we want one in northern Alberta, and the same thing applies to Saskatchewan. AVe have one in Manitoba, but we want one in the

second military district, Toronto in time, and one in the first military district in time. The saving of transportation charges alone would in three years pay for these areas.
Mr.- OLIVER: In Alberta, at present the military training is being carried on at Calgary, which I should fancy is a very suitable location for concentrating troops. Has the Government secured a leasehold of the training area there, or under what conditions have they been able to use that property.


Major General HUGHES:: The training area is on the Indian reserve. The Indians offered us a lease of several sections of land; but, as there were certain little difficulties in the way on account of other claims, we have not yet received a permanent release of the Piegan Indian reserve. There is on the reserve a range and a manoeuvring area that we shall be able to hold for 99 years. The Indians are willing; but there are conditions, of which I do not know the details, which prevent us from consummating the deal. It is, however, a long haul from Lloydminster and from the boundaries of Alberta and Saskatchewan to Calgary, and that means many thousand dollars a year. When we get a troop area, all the troops in the north, as the different bodies gradually develop, can be brought to some home locality for training.


Frank Oliver: I rather understood the minister to say a little while ago that there was a training area in Alberta near Medicine Hat?


Major General HUGHES:: Just north of Medicine Hat.


Frank Oliver: I wondered what was the connection, because I had not heard of troops being trained in that area.


Major General HUGHES:: There was no railway there last year, and we would have had to go 30 miles without a railway. There is now a railway. The area may do for the whole of Alberta. The troops can go down those diagonal lines from the northern parts of Alberta to that range. We have not looked fully into the matter yet.


Frank Oliver: If it is possible to make an arrangement for a training area, it would be very much more desirable than the area my hon. friend speaks about, because it is not near Medicine Hat, although it is in the Medicine Hat district.


Major General HUGHES:: It is 30 miles north of Medicine Hat.


Frank Oliver: It is on a single line of railway, not at a point where lines come together. I quite appreciate the desirability of securing an area in the north country as well as in the south. I would be glad to see that done, but I think it should always be done with regard to convenience of location; that is, convenience for the bringing together of the different bodies of troops, if a considerable area can be secured at such a point, as it can be at Calgary.
Pensions payable to militiamen on account of the rebellion in 1SS5, and active service generally, flOO.OOO.


Frank Oliver: Is this in relation to pensions already earned, or has it any relation to pensions to be earned?


Major General HUGHES:: These pensions are payable to militiamen on account of the rebellion in 1885.


Mr OLIVER:: Is any provision made in the Estimates for pensions for soldiers disabled in the present war?


Robert Laird Borden: That will be a matter for the Supplementary Estimates.
I beg to move that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 106, to amend the Representation Act of 1914. He said:	This Bill has been prepared by the law clerk of the House upon information afforded by the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, and it is designed to correct errors in the Act of last year. The first section makes some amendment in the electoral district of Nipissing by striking out the word " Kelly," and correcting the spelling of another word. The second Section re-enacts the description of the electoral district of the city of London, which required some amendment. The third section makes some corrections in spelling. Tne fourtn sectim amends the description of the electoral district of Quebec West. The fifth section makes a correction in respect of the electoral district of Jacques
[Stage Direction]
Cartier. The sixth section makes correction in respect of the electoral district of Labelle. The seventh section corrects the proviso in reference to the electoral districts of Prince Edward Island. As it passed last year, it related to a resolution of Parliament of that session. That resolution did not pass owing to some difference of opinion between this House and the Senate. The eighth and ninth sections make some corrections in two divisions in the province of Manitoba.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Immigration-salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $620,000.
["No, I have heard no charges whatever.\nAt six o'clock, the House resumed, and then took recess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS."]
John Howard Sinclair: Has a special immigration officer or publicity agent been appointed for eastern Nova Scotia?


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Minister of the Interior) :: A petition was received yesterday or to-day, and is in my office, asking for the appointment; but it has not been given the consideration necessary, and no appointment has been made.


John Howard Sinclair: And the hon. minister cannot state whether he will make the appointment or not?


William James Roche: Does the hon. member
think it essential? He is better acquainted with the province than I am. I should like. to have the benefit of his opinion.


William Chisholm: I am surprised to hear that it is only now the hon.-minister is aware of the necessity of such a publicity agent. There was a petition over a year ago, backed by resolutions of the Boar3 of Trade and the Forward Movement Association; and I called the attention of the minister last year to the desirability of such an appointment being made. The hon. gentleman said then that he would give it favourable consideration. It is rather surprising to find that he does not seem to know anything about this matter except that a petition has just come in. There were representations made from all over the country, not only from Antigonish, but from the several towns in eastern Nova Scotia, and backed by many men of standing and prominence in that part of the country, urging this appointment. The files of the department are loaded down with corre-

spondence on this subject. Not only was the minister importuned, but the acting minister in his absence, -and the Prime Minister and others have been urged to make this appointment. It seems strange that the minister is not aware of the necessity and desirability of such an appointment being made. All that I can say'is that my remarks, made when the Estimates were going through last year with reference to this question, will be found on Hansard. It was then stated, as strongly as I could state it, that it was desirable that an energetic, wide-awake agent should be appointed.
An unfortunate thing is that the rural districts have lost population, particularly the county I have the honour to represent, this being due to the fact that the West was so extensively advertised. The effort is now being made to have the vacant farms taken hold of by the native-born and by immigrants from across the water. Of course, I suppose, just now we cannot expect very much in the way of immigration from Europe. But there are a great many of our native sons living in the West who would very quickly come back to the East, and the time, I think, is very opportune for the work of an energetic publicity agent who would bring to the notice of our own people as well as others not only the possibilities but the advantages offered by the farms of the East. I hope the minister will be able to say something a little more definite than that the matter is under consideration and that he has had it under consideration for only a few days.


William James Roche: It is not often that hon. gentlemen opposite condemn a minister for not making sufficient appointments. The criticisms to which we are subject are usually on the opposite line. Of course, in the multiplicity of applications hon. gentlemen cannot expect that I should have this one that has been mentioned by the hon. member for Guysborough immediately in mind and that I should recollect just what took place a year ago. But the matter is fresh in my mind by reason of the fact that there is a petition on my desk which I have recently received and to which I have not had time to give the consideration it deserves. That does not necessarily mean, of course, that I will not pass favourably upon it. I am glad to have had the opinion of the hon. member for Antigonish (Mr. . Chisholm) as to the desirability of having such an appointment. The only reason why I would hesitate is that I have to endeavour

to economize 'by not making more new appointments than are absolutely necessary. As the hon. gentleman says, there will not be very much overseas immigration this year. There may be immigration from the United States, although we expect that that also will fall off. That is one reason why I do not care to multiply the officials if I can possibly avoid it. At the same time, if I am impressed with the idea that in any particular province there is necessity to have another official publicity agent as the hon. gentleman suggests, and it falls within the purview of our department to make such an appointment, I have no objection to favourably consider it.


Mr. BURNHAM:: Do I gather from what the minister says that it is the intention to appoint a publicity agent to induce immigration from various parts of this country to other parts?


William James Roche: No, the work is more that of repatriation. I think the petition that I read this mornipg dwells upon the idea of inducing immigrants from outside of Canada to come to the province of Nova Scotia. There have been some complaints-we had mention of 'it here to-day-that the attention of the Immigration Department has been more particularly devoted to Western Canada, and it is suggested that Nova Scotia probably has not had its due in that respect. It was not with the idea of running a publicity bureau alone, but of appointing an immigration agent for the province of Nova Scotia.


John Hampden Burnham: Perhaps the hon. minister will say what he meant by speaking of the repatriation of Nova Scotians who have gone West.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman misunderstood me; I was not referring to Nova Scotians who have gone West. There are a number of Canadians in the United States who might be repatriated.


William Chisholm: I think it
is considered desirable that the province should be peopled with native-born persons; they understand the conditions peculiar to the province, make the best settlers, and are more desirable in every respect. I am sorry to hear the minister suggest that it is not intended that the publicity agent shall extend his operations to other parts of Canada with a view to inducing native-born Nova Scotians who are in the West to return to their own province. If the oper-
'ations of Mr. Webb are to be confined to the United States and to the Old Country, and if, as the minister alleges, there is a prospect of getting no immigrants from the old country and but few from the United States, I am afraid the minister has virtually admitted that there is little hope of this publicity agent being appointed in the near future.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman's idea as to how the public funds should be expended in connection with immigration differs from mine. I do not think that the money of the people of Canada should be devoted to an effort to induce settlers in one part of the country to migrate to another. In fact, accusations were made in years gone by against the then Government that they were trying to induce eastern Canadians to migrate to the West. If Nova Scotians have gone West or to other provinces of Canada, they know the conditions both in the province they came from and in the province in which they have settled; and if dissatisfied they will go back; if contented, they will remain where they are. We are spending money on immigration with the idea of bringing settlers into Canada from other countries; not with the idea of inducing Nova Scotians to go West or persuading those who have gone West to return to the eastern provinces.


William Chisholm: How many immigation agent's are there in Nova Scotia, under Dominion authority.


William James Roche: Three, I think. '


William Chisholm: Do these agents act
as agents for the whole province, or is the province divided into districts?


William James Roche: For the whole province.


William Chisholm: I think the minister is perfectly right in saying that he is not justified in these hard times in creating offices. That is why I argued that he could dispose of a great many of the unnecessary officials who are in the various branches of the service, and use the money received by them to pay a live, wide-awake, energetic publicity agent. Last year I called attention to the fact that this Government sent several special agents from Nova Scotia, including one from my. own county, to Europe since 1911. They went off on a pleasure trip which lasted three months, and cost the country something like $6,000, and if my memory serves me. I think they receive $100 a month and expenses. Their report*

are on file, but if the minister can find in those reports anything useful to Canada's immigration policy or tending to increase immigration into this country, he will do more than I have been able to do. If he will avoid appointing agents of this kind merely for political purposes, to satisfy those who have been disappointed in other respects, and devote the money to real publicity work, some good will be accomplished.


William James Roche: I should not want the hon. gentleman to leave the impression upon the committee that these officials were in any sense permanent immigration agents. It has been the policy of the department for many years to send delegates from the various provinces of Canada to the Old Country to act temporarily during the winter months as immigration agents. They are placed under the direction of Mr. J. Obed Smith, of the London office. He arranges in advance that they shall he at certain provincial towns at certain times, to meet the people and to give them information. Some of them act in the capacity of lecturers and give addresses on Canada. This is temporary work which is carried on during the winter months; I think the period is three months, or a little longer.
Mr. MeCRANEY: As a western man I do not fall in with the suggestion of the hon. member for Antigonish (Mr. Chisholm) that a propaganda should be carried on to induce Nova Scotians who live in the province of Saskatchewan to go back to Nova Scotia, The former chief justice, the Attorney General of our province, and the two candidates who have opposed me in previous elections, are all Nova Scotians. Nova Scotians are among the most successful men we have, and I am sure that no matter how great a propaganda were carried on, they would not return, not because they do not love Nova Scotia, but because they are doing so well in the West. Our province is almost dominated by Nova Scotians. When Nova Scotians complain that they have not enough influence in this Parliament by reason of reduction in their representation, I feel like reminding them of the great influence which they are acquiring the West.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: I wish to direct the attention of the minister to a matter which I have previously referred to him by letter, but in respect of which I have had very little indication as to what action he intends to take. It is with respect to the

grievance of a large number of the settlers west of the city of Wetaskiwin. The district, is about 50 miles from a railway. At one time it was heavily timbered, but a fire depleted it of its merchantable timber of any considerable value. Settlers were allowed to go in there and take up homesteads. After clearing up the land and making improvements they found that the soil was not suitable for the successful raising of crops; thus they have been unable to acquire the amount of land necessary to entitle them to a patent. At the same time they have been unable to make a living. My attention was called to the grievance of these people and I made a trip out to the settlement to look into the matter personally. I found the country entirely unsuited for anything except, possibly, mixed farming. To make matters worse, there has been considerable interference by the man who has been in charge of the patronage in that district. According to the statement of the settlers, he has been interfering with the duties of the homestead inspector and the timber ranger. Timber rangers who have been sent by the local office to make inspections have reported in many cases that there are more than 25 acres of merchantable timber on these lands. The regulations appear to be rather vague as to what constitutes merchantable timber, and the settlers consider that they are under a very distinct grievance inasmuch as the inspector has set aside a great deal of timber as merchantable which they say is a hindrance and a nuisance rather than of any value. A number of inspections have been made and yet these men are in the condition that they cannot get any satisfaction from the department other than the statement that they must fulfil the regulations and clear and crop 30 acres of land. This, in a district of this description, is practically impossible; and if they did carry out this condition the crops would not yield them any return. The district is better adapted for mixed farming and the raising and rearing of stock than the raising of grain. I wish to let the minister understand that political influences have been at work inasmuch as discrimination has been shown in favour of neighbours with the same amount of improvements in the granting of patents. Men who have done certain improvements have been allowed to get patents through the recommendation of the homestead inspector and the signs indicate that political influences have been brought to bear to bring

this condition about. I wish to point out to the minister the difficult and almost impossible condition that these settlers are in to clear and cultivate according to the regulations and, as I understand he has power as commissioner to alleviate these conditions in his own judgment, I think it would be wise for him to be as lenient as possible to the settlers in this district.


William James Roche: I believe that this question has engaged the attention of the officers of the department on several occasions. It appears that, as the hon. gentleman has said the settlers went into this district with their eyes open, and although there was abundance of prairie land open to be taken, they settled in a thickly timbered country where they could not make a living. It is true that fire had destroyed some of the timber. They took up homesteads contrary to the Dominion Lands Act by making affidavits at the land office that there was not more than 25 acres of timber on each area homesteaded. That is where they made their error. An inspector had been sent from the local office who reported more than 25 acres of timber. He set aside the 25 acres of timber, leaving them their homesteads, but leaving the other timber on the quarter-section to be utilized by settlers for permits. That was practically the only fair thing the department could do. They were not entitled to more than 25 acres of timber. The inspector set aside 25 acres. ' But they are not satisfied with that, 'they want to get their patents without doing the cultivation even although they cannot make their living on the quarter-section and they knew that before going on the land and they want to get all the timber to dispose of for commercial purposes. That is the way the case has been presented to me by the departmental officers. So far as politics is concerned, I know there have been some questions of that kind between the gentleman named and the particular man who is entering this complaint; but, as far as I can learn,, there is nothing in that, and the gentleman against whom the charges are made has sent us letters, which we have on file, absolutely denying that there has been anything of the kind.
Last session we passed an amendment to the Dominion Lands Act whereby on lands that have been taken up for homesteading on which the requisite amount of cultivation duties cannot he performed, patents may be secured by putting on a certain number of stock. That was not intended to be retroactive, but I am sure the department will look on this in a very
lenient manner, and if these gentleman cannot cultivate their lands, the department, I am sure, will have no objection to them qualifying for their patents by putting on a certain number of stock. What they object to is having the 25 acres of that timber land set aside for them and allowing the public to have permits to go in and take off the timber from the other portions of the quarter-section.


James McCrie Douglas: The minister will understand that the question comes in there as to what constitutes merchantable timber.


William James Roche: I understand that while there is no strict definition in regard to that, the department looks on timber above 10 inches in diameter as merchantable timber.


James McCrie Douglas: No matter whether it is poplar or spruce ?


William James Roche: Yes, if it is below 10 inches it can be used for firewood.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: Speaking about polities in the department, has the minister heard any charges of political interference in connection with the opening up of the Duck Mountain timber reserve ?


William James Roche: No, I have heard no charges whatever.
At six o'clock, the House resumed, and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 82, respecting the patent of the National Wood Distilling Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 83, for the relief of Lottie Thorndike.-Mr. Boyce.
Bill No. 84, for the relief of Arthur Ernest Birdsell.-Mr. Michael Clark.
Bill No. 86, respecting the Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 88, for the relief of Adam Clarke Anderson.-Mr. Wallace.
Bill No. 89, for the relief of Thomas Jefferson Moore.-Mr. W. M. Martin.
Bill No. 90, for the relief of Alexander McIntyre.-Mr. Bristol.
Bill No. 91, for the relief of Violet- Burnett Delmege.-Mr. Brabazon.
Bill No. 92, for the relief of Alice Beckett. -Mr. Michael Clark.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 96, respecting the Premier Trust Company.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 97, respecting the Northwest Life Assurance Company.-Mr. McCrkney.
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Austin Mc-[DOT]Phail Bothwell.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 99, for the relief of Agnes Gra-velle.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Clara Elizabeth Darnell.-Mr. McCraney.
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Thomas Batin Harries.-Mr. Sehaffner.
Bill No. 102, for the relief of William John Owen Delaney.-Mr. Porter.
Bill No. 103, for the relief of Edith May Webster Boydell.-Mr. Michael Clark.
Bill No. 104, for the relief of William Robert Delaney.-Mr. Michael Clark.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 81, respecting the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 72, for the relief of William - Ewart New.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 73, for the relief of Helene Suzette Baxter Douglas.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Immigration-salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $620,000.
['I will go on to-morrow.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.\nSaturday, March 27, 1915.']
Mr. McCRANEY:: his discretion. I hope he will not say that because some other applications are not in order, therefore the applicant whose documents are in order should succeed. Such a matter as this should not be treated as an undefended action in court. I think the tying up in any one man's hands, especially at this juncture, of ten thousand acres of land in that well-settled community is a very important thing, and I hope that the minister will not allow it. If the land is not altogether suitable for homesteading it is 'because it is near the north branch of the Saskatchewan river and there is no doubt a good deal of glacial stone on the surface.


William James Roche: When the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney) moved for the papers, I hastily glanced over the file to acquaint myself more or less with the condition of affairs, and I found if very much as has been stated by the hon. gentleman. There is on the file considerable correspondence going to show that there was considerable feeling both for and against Mr. Schrader. Of course, Mr. Schrader claims that a good deal of the opposition to him getting the lease emanates from political opponents. The affidavit which was read would show that, inasmuch as it states that the secretary-treasurer of the council had vowed that he would see that the council passed resolutions against Mr. Schrader getting the lease. I say nothing about that.
There are rival applications for the grazing lease. I understand that an inspection was made of the land,1 and some was recommended to be given to one applicant and the balance to be given to Mr. Schrader. It was stated that it would be useless to give it all to the other gentleman by reason of the fact that he has not sufficient stock to stock it, nor means to purchase stock. On the other hand, it is represented by the inspector that Mr. Schrader has a good deal of thoroughbred stock and is in a position to stock, and has on another farm a good deal of stock.


George Ewan McCraney: It may be in his possession, but I doubt if it is in his own name.


William James Roche: I know nothing about that. At any rate, the department, owing to the conflicting applications, thought it desirable, though an inspection had been made, to bring in an outside and independent inspector who would not be prejudiced. He reported, I believe, that the lands upon the whole were not suitable 
for agriculture, though portions ware suitable, but that a good deal of the land was broken, stony and hilly, on the banks of the Saskatchewan. By reason of the fact that Mr. Schrader was in a better position to stock it, he recommended that Mr. Schradar be given the lease. However, as I understand it, Mr. Schrader did not comply with the license conditions in regard to the posting of notice for so many days. He was notified that he had to post for a certain number of days, and did post in one of the larger post offices on the line^ but did not comply with the strict regulations, and was so notified.	I do not think we have received notice stating whether he has complied with the conditions or not.
I can understand local feeling on this subject if it is contended that a great deal of this land is suitable for agriculture. The municipal council naturally desires to see the land taken up by homesteaders so that it can tax the land and. get a revenue. I have not passed upon the application, in the first place because no person had complied with the condition up to the date it was before me, and secondly because I thought that owing to the largely signed petition which we had received, we should go very slow before we grant a grazing lease in the face of such opposition. True, it was claimed by one signer that misrepresentations had been made to him or he would not have signed-it had been represented that it was the intention to fence off the ranch and shut him off from the river. But at any. rate I can promise the hon. gentleman that, I will look very carefully into the question and will not issue a grazing lease until I am convinced in my own mind that the land is not suitable for agriculture. Of course, I have always been desirous that land not guit-able for agriculture should not be settled upon; and I am more strongly convinced 'than ever that we should not throw opeu such land for agricultural occupation after our experience of this year, when we find that so much land is taken up by homesteaders on which they cannot make a living and that they come on the Government for seed grain. In view of these facts, I feel that we ought to be very careful about throwing ranching country open for settlement. It might suit these parties better to have a lot of smaller leases rather than have the land tied up for a series of years in the hands of one rancher. I will give the matter serious consideration and will be careful not to act prematurely.


James McCrie Douglas: I desire to ask the minister to make an independent inspection of the place I brought to his notice before dinner in regard to what constitutes merchantable timber. There is a very strong feeling in the district of Wetaskiwin that politics has entered into this case.
If the minister would put an independent timber ranger into that district and have him make an independent report, the fact of the case as brought out would probably vindicate the conduct of the present timber ranger. The feeling is very strongly held, however, by a large number of people, that political influence has been brought to bear upon the officials of the department in the reports which they have made. I would urge upon the minister that he secure an independent and impartial report of these particular cases, and satisfy himself as to whether these settlers are being fairly treated, or whether undue influence is being brought to bear upon the local officials -by parties interested.


William James Roche: If my memory serves me correctly, another inspection has already been ordered.


James McCrie Douglas: Only by the homestead inspector, d think.


William James Roche: I am not certain of that.
] think the hon. member may disabuse his mind of the idea that the decisions given in these cases have been the result of political pressure unon the officials of the Government. My* officials are not of the political stripe which would permit them to be influenced by representations of that nature.


James McCrie Douglas: I mean the local officials.


William James Roche: The local officials have nothing to do with the decision; the " decision was made in the department by those who are responsible for it.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: I want to say a word about the political aspect of this question. I had occasion to be in the neighbourhood of Wetaskiwin during the recess, and I found, amongst a number of the intelligent people of the district whom I met and conversed with, a very distinct impression that discrimination was being used in regard to the issuing of patents on political grounds. I desire to say that I entirely exonerate the minister from acting in such a manner. I know my. hon. friend well, and I am quite sure that he would not do anything at once so wrong and so silly. It would be very wrong, because, speaking from experience,
I can assure the minister, if he needs the assurance, that when a man has taken a homestead and has done honestly the work which entitles him to a patent, he is very anxious to have it and he has a right to have it. I am sure the minister recognizes that, and it would be a great wrong to the country if every reasonable expedition were not observed in the granting of the patent.
It would be silly, because we are not accustomed in this country to German methods. In Anglo-Saxon countries people do not respond to interferences with their freedom by supporting the Government that so interferes. I think that any such action, taken for political purposes would have a diametrically opposite effect to that which it was intended to have. If any man with an ounce of Anglo-Saxon blood in him, knowing that he was entitled to his patent, was refused it by the minions of a government simply because he did not vote as they wanted him to vote, he would vote twice as badly that way and get as many of his friends , as he could to do the same thing. I have found the impression prevailing that this motive was actuating the inspectors, and that is not the only neighbourhood in the province of Alberta in which I have found this impression existing since this Government came into power. My hon. friend, I feel sure, will be grateful to me for bringing this to his attention. I cannot recall-and I desire to divest myself of all partisanship in making this statement-ever having heard a complaint of that kind when the department was under the administration of the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver). I can recall complaints against the hon. member for Edmonton, but not that he ever advocated, practised or allowed discrimination on political grounds in such matters as these. I desire again to say that I exonerate the present minister from being actuated by any motive so petty. I am quite sure that if this thing is happening, it is happening at the instance of inspectors who are more zealous for party than they are for the interests of the country. Having brought the matter before the minister, I should like to suggest to him-he may think the matter over-that as a precautionary measure he should send a circular to all his inspectors, pointing out the wrongness and folly of making discrimination against any homesteader in regard to the issue of his patent.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman, being a medical man, knows human nature well enough to appreciate the fact that when a

man applies for his patent and thinks he ought to have it because he belongs to the party in power, he frequently blames his own friends when he does not get it. We have received considerable blame from some of our own political friends because we did not give them patents when they thought they were deserving of them, and when the officials of my department and myself saw that they had not complied with the homestead regulations and conditions. The hon. member may not have heard any complaints when the old Government was in power, but I would be more apt to hear such complaints than a supporter of the then Government, and I did hear any number of them- just such complaints as are made in this case.	They have always been
made, and they always will be made, no matter what	Government is in
power. The trouble is that many persons who take up homesteads desire to shirk their duties and to obtain their patents without complying with the regulations. Officials of the Interior Department pass upon nearly all applications; only occasionally-in complicated cases, where the officials do not desire themselves to take the responsibility -do applicants come before the minister. It is true that there may be some local officials who try to create the impression that they are in a position to have their recomendations carried out, but even homestead inspectors' recommendations are not carried out by the officials if they have evidence which leads them to believe that they should not adopt them. Frequently an outside inspector is sent into a district, to make an independent inspection. The^ officials did pass upon the particular case mentioned by the hon. member for Strath-cona; but the whole thing in a . nutshell is	that these people did not
comply with the homestead conditions. The hon. member says that they cannot cultivate sufficient acreage to carry out the homestead duties; that they went on land which i3 unfit for agricultural development. This being the case, how on earth can he expect the department to issue patents? The regulations are there, and must be complied with. We are not responsible for the fact that these people went on lands which cannot be broken up and cultivated. They can, of course, avail themselves of the stock provision. The report we have, however, is that these people went on that land for the purpose of utilizing the timber commercially. They feel that they have a grievance because they are only allowed 25 acres, but [Mr. Roche. 1
that is what the law prescribes. They wish to divest that land of timber and move on to another district, perhaps claiming another free homestead on the ground that the first was no good; in the meantime they will have lived off the timber. It is practically an impossibility for officials under the existing regulations to issue patents for these lands.


James McCrie Douglas: The minister will understand that timber fifty miles from a railway cannot be very valuable commercially. It is said that discrimihation is made as to the quality of merchantable timber which these different homesteads are said to con tain, and this is one of the causes of complaint on the part of the settlers. The question arises as to what is meant by merchantable timber. If the officials of the department were lenient in their interpretation of the expression " merchantable timber," I do not think there would be any trouble in this district. If fair play were given to all the settlers in the district, no complaint would be made. The statement is openly made, however, not by one person, but by many, that unfair discrimination is made as between one settler and another by the officials of the department. My desire is that an independent timber ranger should be sent to make a separate report as to what constitutes 25 acres of merchantable timber and as to whether it should be en bloc or picked out all over a man's farm. The minister can well understand that no man who wishes to make a living by keeping stock or in any other way *would wish his fences to be torn down to permit neighbours to go in and take timber off the land. I do not know that the settlers are asking anything unfair, they simply wish to be treated as their neighbours are. The minister can .see that a small official may make things very disagreeable for a whole settlement.


Mr. EOCHE:: Do I understand that these gentlemen will be satisfied if they have their 160 acres with the timber on it ?


James McCrie Douglas: I think so. I never heard any complaint otherwise.


William Roche: In what way would that improve the condition of the soil ?


James McCrie Douglas: It might enable them to raise stock. It would not improve the soii, but the land might be suitable for raising cattle.


Frank Oliver: I would remind the minister that a regulation in regard to timber which may be desirable and applicable- m

one condition is not desirable and should not be made applicable to another condition. Some years ago when the settlement was confined to what was called the prairie section of the West, an interpretation of merchantable timber would properly cover timber that was merchantable as firewood; but now that settlement has covered the prairie and has pushed back not only into the park country but into the heavy woods, as in the case mentioned by my hon. friend, but more particularly in the district which I represent, the interpretation that would be proper 100 miles to the south or east of Edmonton would be an entirely improper interpretation 100 miles north or west of Edmonton where the country is practically entirely timbered, with timber that 100 miles to the south or east would be considered very heavy-and yet that timber has no commercial value and must be cleared away at cost to the settler in order to enable him to cultivate the ground. Unless the department takes the view that timber must be preserved because it is timber, and I do not understand that they take that view, then I would add to what the hon. member for Stratheona has said, the suggestion that there should be a new interpretation put upon the words merchantable timber, applicable to those parts of the country where the country is covered with a growth of what would be called on the prairie heavy timber, but which in the heavily wooded country has really no merchantable value whatever. That is the condition which prevails throughout a very large part of the constituency I represent. As railroads are constructed through that territory and the settlers naturally push back along the railroad lines into the timber, this 'question becomes one of very pressing
9 p.m. importance. The minister has had a concrete case presented to him.
. What is the condition in isolated cases in Stratheona is the condition throughout a very large proportion of the much larger district of Edmonton, and the minister will find it very frequently in the administration of the land throughout that district. I therefore suggest that a new interpretation be placed on merchantable timber applicable to these conditions where the country is covered with a heavy forest growth but where those trees are not, by reason of conditions, of merchantable character.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: I would like to bring to the attention of the minister an act of the department recently in the city of Lethbridge. Mr. A. E. Humphries, who had been an immigration official for some years, was relieved of office on the ground of economy. That was the explanation given to Mr. Humphries and the explanation which the minister gave to me this session. If that was the sole reason I would not be inclined to bring the matter to the attention of the House, because I am in favour of economy wherever it can be practised. Mr. Humphries was relieved from the positions of immigration inspector, immigration agent at Lethbridge, and caretaker of the immigration hall. But immediately after his removal, Mr. A. H. McKeown was appointed caretaker of the immigration hall at a salary of ,$65 a month, with plenty of accommodation for his family, which made the position a very good one for that gentleman. I think it would have been only fair to a servant of the character of Mr. Humphries that, if economy was to be practised, he should have 'been deprived of the other two positions but. have been allowed to retain the position of caretaker of the immigration hall. It is true that he was appointed by the late Government, but no charges were preferred against him that he was a partisan or an inefficient officer. Since this Government came into power they recognized his services and increased his salary, and officials of the department speak of him as one of the best immigration inspectors they had in the service, and he was recommended for an increase by the gentleman who at that time was in charge of the patronage in my riding for the Conservative party. There is no question that Mr. Humphries was an efficient officer, and I would like the minister to offer an explanation of his removal from all of these positions on the ground of economy, followed immediately by the appointment of a gentleman to the position of caretaker. I might say that within a very short time of Mr. Humphries being relieved of office relief was being distributed in southern Alberta. Mr. Humphries had had something to do in previous years with the distribution of relief in certain districts of Alberta. It was said that there was no work for him to do, that economy had to be practised. In my judgment, it would have been a wise act on the part of the Government to have given Mr. Humphries some of that work to do until the immigration business had improved, especially since the Government had recognized Mr. Humphries as an exceptionally good officer and had in-

creased his salary. But instead of that they appointed a gentleman from Lethbridge to the position of commissioner of relief at a salary of 1150 a month and Mr. Humphries, who was receiving less than that, was relieved on the ground of economy. If there had been any charge against him of inefficiency or partisanship I would not complain, but it is generally recognized by political friends of the minister that Mr. Humphries was one of the most capable officials in the department. That tribute was paid to him by Mr. W. C. Ives, who was handling the patronage in the riding of Medicine Hat and recommended him for an increase in salary,


William James Roche: I know very little personally about this except that I recollect the question placed by the hon. gentleman on the Order Paper, and also that the following answer was given:
Owing to the fact there was at that time practically no work to do in connection with immigration at Lethbridge, Mr. A. E. Humphries was on October 15, 1914, indefinitely suspended from his position as travelling immigration inspector.
It does not say he was dismissed. It says lie was indefinitely suspended. The gentleman who took his place was appointed I think on the 1st January, 1915, on the strong representation of the Commissioner of Immigration that it would not do to have such a good building left without a caretaker. I do not know who this man is, but I understand he is getting $65 a month as caretaker. I think Humphries was getting $100 a month. Because this new man was appointed on the 1st January, 1915, it does not follow that Mr. Humphries was dismissed. Apparently there was no work for him to do. There was practically no immigration. And he is not the only official whose services have been temporarily dispensed with during this period of stress, and that applies to Conservatives too. I had to let off one of our inspectors in the Brandon district who was appointed by this Government. There was nothing against him; in fact, he was a first-class official; but his services were dispensed with on the ground of economy. The hon. gentleman might ask why Mr. Humphries was not appointed as caretaker. I cannot explain that; I do not even know whether he would have accepted it if it had been offered him. I think the best evidence that there was no partisanship about it is. the fact that his salary had been increased since this Government came into power.


William Ashbury Buchanan: The criticism I had
to offer was this. There might have been reason to abolish the position other than that of caretaker which Mr. Humphries was filling, but he had been caretaker and in charge of the Immigration hall at Lethbridge for years, and I cannot understand why, when he was removed from.the other offices, he should not have been allowed to retain the position of caretaker of the Immigration hall, especially as he had been a faithful servant of the department for a number of years. This removal left him practically without any means of support, and at a time when business was stagnant and he could not get employment of any kind; and he has not a position of any kind to-day. In my judgment, the fairest thing would have been to allow Humphries to retain the position of caretaker. The ^Government had recognized the merits of Mr. Humphries. They had considered him a valuable official, and he should have been treated decently at all events, and allowed to retain this particular position at $65 a month. He had started in as caretaker of the Immigration hall and had always held that position while he was gradually being promoted to more responsible positions.


Frank Oliver: The item under discussion is No. 64, which is to provide $620,000 for the salaries of agents and employees of Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries. That is an increase of $20,000 over last year's vote. Now if Mr. Humphries was dismissed or retired from his position on the grounds of economy, perhaps the minister would be good enough to explain this increase in the vote?


William James Roche: Of course, this is an estimate for next year. As the hon. gentleman realizes, there was practically no boundary inspection at all up to 1908. Two classes of people seek to come into Canada: first, desirable settlers, whom we are anxious to get; and, secondly, undesirable settlers, whom we are trying to keep out. The development of the boundary inspection accounts for no small proportion of the gradual increase in the expenditure of the Immigration Department. In practically every province there are railways connecting with the United States, and undesirables could easily slip in if a close watch were not kept. In 1909, the first year we had boundary inspection at all, 37 were appointed; in 1911, prior to the old Government going out of power, there were 87; that is, they had increased the number

of inspectors by 50 within two years. In February, 1915, there were 152 inspectors. This increase in the boundary inspection, together with increases in salaries that might take place, largely accounts for the extra $20,000. Although we are asking for $620,000, it does not necessarily follow that we shall spend all of that amount; but we are very anxious to guard the international boundary at this time. While we do not expect a large increase of overseas immigration, undesirables from the United States, which is going through a time of stress just like Canada, will 'Seek .new pastures and endeavour to get into Canada. They have been trying it already, and every year the immigration laws in that respect have to be enforced more strictly.


William Melville Martin: What salary does an inspector get?


William James Roche: He starts at $900, and gradually increases to $1,200.


Frank Oliver: The minister's explanation makes Humphries' case very much worse, because Humphries was a boundary inspector, and an especially good one; so that according to the minister's statement there was absolutely no reason to cut down expenses in regard to Mr. Humphries. Lethbridge is an important point of access from across the boundary, and it has always been necessary and always will be necessary to have a capable man there to watch for undesirables. That being the case and in view of the_ hon. minister's admission that he finds it necessary to increase the strength of his boundary staff, his defence of the removal of Humphries clearly falls to the ground, and we must accept the other alternative that Humphries was removed because of political pressure.


William James Roche: He was a travelling inspector.


Frank Oliver: But his business as an inspector was rather to keep people out than to bring people in, that is why he was there, and that is what he was particularly efficient at.


Mr. MOLLOY:: What is the difference between a travelling inspector and a stationary inspector?


William James Roche: A travelling inspector has jurisdiction over several points, while a stationary inspector has jurisdiction over only one.


John Patrick Molloy: One might be a Grit and the other a Tory.


William James Roche: And one might be a Tory and the other a Grit.


Mr. MARCIL:: I do not want this discussion to be confined entirely to western members. Being a resident of the city of Montreal, and knowing the conditions that prevail there now, and the fact that probably three-fourths of the unemployed there are not native Canadians, I would ask the minister if there is going to be any change in our immigration policy during the continuance of the present crisis, or whether anybody is to be allowed to come into this country just as usual.
The country districts can get along very well, but cities like the port of Montreal, into which foreigners come to seek labour, have to look after the needs of a great number of these people. The corporation of the city of Montreal is spending this winter close on $70,000 in charity; and the Archbishop of Montreal has written to me to say that they have organized 75 sections of the St. Vincent de Paul Society to cover the city, and were providing at present for nearly 20,000 people. The Grey Nuns and other charitable institutions in Montreal are supplying 2,000 quarts of soup daily, and Montreal is at present going through the most severe crisis in the memory of those living. Is the minister taking any means to prevent Montreal being flooded by foreigners without any means of livelihood?


William James Roche: There has been practically no immigration from across the sea since the war started; it has cured itself. The Government are not encouraging people to come here, and we are practically not making any active propaganda even in the British Isles. We are more strictly enforcing the immigration regulations than at any time in the past. We are not encouraging any persons to come here except those belonging to the agricultural classes, and we are not paying any bonus on any of the labouring classes. We are even getting more strict in regard to domestic servants. In some places there is yet a little demand for domestic servants, but in other places the supply is probably greater than the demand. Formerly, some came over as domestic servants who were not really domestic servants before leaving their own country, and now they must prove, to the satisfaction of the officers, that they have been in domestic service at least twelve months prior to sailing. There are some who come to the country of their own volition.


Charles Marcil: Some are encouraged by railway companies.


William James Roche: That may be, but they have to comply with the immigration regulations and pass the medical examination.


Charles Marcil: If mechanics or labourers come here how are they allowed in?


William James Roche: We have an order prohibiting them from entering British Columbia, and while we are not directly prohibiting mechanics from coming in to other parts, yet our agents on the other side have been instructed to discourage them in every possible way.


William Melville Martin: The return with regard to the Civil Service shows that up to March 4, 1914, 110 officials of the Immigration Department were dismissed, 35 resignations received, and 343 appointed in their places. The minister has explained that there has been an increase in the boundary immigration agents of 50; will he say whether the remainder of the increase was in the inside service or the outside service?


William James Roche: We have had some increases in the inside service as well as in the outside service. We have opened two new offices in the United States, in England we have opened offices at Carlisle, Peterborough and Cardiff, and one in Copenhagen, all of which require staffs.
Mr. W. M. MARTIN': The new officers would be included in the figures given last year?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: The return is brought down to March 4, 1914, over a year ago; can the minister say how the Immigration Department stands to-day, as regards the number of its officials?


William James Roche: There have been very few increases since that return was brought down.


William Melville Martin: I presume the officials employed in the drought-stricken districts in the West would come under the Immigration Department and would contribute to the increase?


William James Roche: These are teihporary employees for a few months.


William Melville Martin: How many are employed in the drought-stricken area distributing relief as temporary officials?


William James Roche: There are about fourteen each in Maple Creek district, north and south, and about twenty in the Moosejaw district.


William Melville Martin: And apart from these
there have been few appointed to the Immigration Department since the date of that return?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: The cost of administering the department has increased very largely since 1911. What is the justification for that? The total cost of the Immigration Department, 1911-12, was $1,364,999; in 1913-.14, $1,893,297, and for the current year, 1914-15, $2,138,800 or an increase of 65 per cent over 1911-12. The increase in 1913-14 over 1911-12 is about $530,000, and the increase in 1914-15 over 1913-14 is about $300,000. This I cannot understand. In 1911-12 and 1913-14, immigration into this country was about as high as in any year of our history, but in 1914 the immigration has been very light. The minister, I suppose, will answer that since August 4, 1914, when war was declared, it would not be fair to make a comparison, but for the first eight months of 1914 the immigration had dropped off immensely. The immigration for 1911-12 amounted to 354,257, and for 1913-14 to 168,859. The cost of each immigrant in 1912 was four dollars, and the cost of each immigrant in 1914 was twelve dollars. I realize that even though immigration is practically stopped the minister cannot dismiss the officials and disband the organization.
But there must be some reason for this tremendous increase in the expenditure. We are getting no better service; we are getting no better immigrants than we were getting before. The minister might give the committee some explanation why the cost has increased so largely.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman is
rather confusing the fiscal year in one instance with the calendar year in another. He just took the year 1914 as a calendar year.


William Melville Martin: That is in regard to the number of immigrants. I compared fiscal years when I was speaking of the cost. The minister says it cost $12 per capita for immigration in 1914. I could not tell, of course, what the number of immigrants were for the last three months of 1914-15.


William James Roche: The cost per capita for the fiscal year, 1913-14, amounted to $3.80. The cost per capita of immigration in a time of financial stringency is always greater than it is in a time of prosperity. No better illustration of that is required than in the year 1908. For that year the cost per capita of immigration ran up several dollars during the time of financial stress. Then, of course, my hon. friend is comparing the Estimates of the past year, that is 1914-15, with what was expended in 1912. We are not expending all our Estimates for 1914-15. We expect that out of our vote for the current year we shall have left unexpended at the end of the fiscal year some $300,000. The Estimates might be cut and slashed, but it does not do not to have sufficient funds on hand in a department which is engaged in handling human beings. No better illustration of that is necessary than that during the present year, as the hon. member will know, in a portion of our country in Saskatchewan and Alberta, that is the drought-stricken area, the people were left almost absolutely destitute. They required prompt attention. We had no particular appropriation for that purpose, but we used the immigration vote. We advanced out of that vote $120,000 for the relief of those settlers. Our immigration and our homesteads are so intimately associated that we thought we were justified in doing so. Our immigration until this past year has been keeping very well. During 1913-14, the last fiscal year, we had the largest immigration that we have had in the history of our country, save one year, namely, the preceding year. The immigration in 1912-13-was 402,000, and in 1013-14, in round numbers, 385,000, a drop of some 17,000. Since the war started, we have had absolutely no overseas immigration at all. If the war continues, I do not expect we shall expend all the money we are appropriating this year, but I think we ought to take the precaution of having the money on hand. Supposing the war should cease in July or August, we might have a large influx of people into this country, and we desire to have the money to cope with the situation. The fact that we have the money there does not mean that we are going to spend it all.


Charles Marcil: There has been a large
falling off in immigration from Europe.


William James Roche: Yes.


Charles Marcil: The fact, of course, is attributable to the war, but what is the rea 994
son for the decline in immigration from the United States?


William James Roche: I might offer one explanation. About two years ago the United States opened up a large area of new territory. The lands, of course, are inferior, and the men are given what is known as enlarged homesteads of 320 acres, to enter into competition with our homestead entries and pre-emptions. That undoubtedly has had some effect. Some professional homesteaders may have come to our country and secured patents and then gone back to the United States to take up 320 acres there, or Canadians may have gone to the United States to take up 320 acres. The United States authorities have tried to put a stop to that by making the time on the land seven months in order to prevent a man from homesteading in both Canada and the United States.


Charles Marcil: Is there a homesteading
repatriation movement in certain districts?


William James Roche: Yes.


Charles Marcil: What measure of success has been obtained?


William James Roche: There has been some
measure of success, especially from the United States.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister give me the extent of the repatriation from the United States during the past few months?


William James Roche: In the last twelve months I understand that about 55,000 have come from the United States, and perhaps 20 per cent of those would be French Canadians repatriated.


Charles Marcil: Have they gone West?


William James Roche: A good portion of them
have gone West. Some of them have settled along the National Transcontinental line.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: I was informed some time ago that the department had appointed Mr. Peter Webb as general immigration agent for some particular portion of Nova Scotia. Is that a fact?


William James Roche: No.


William Chisholm: Has an application
been received from Mr. Webb for the position?


William James Roche: Not to my knowledge. The hon. gentleman was not in the House before 6 o'clock?


William Chisholm: No.


William James Roche: This question was asked
by the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair).


William Chisholm: I am asking for information for myself.


William James Roche: There was a petition sent in asking for his appointment.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister
seconded the efforts of Rev. Mr. Caron, who has been endeavouring to bring in settlers along the National Transcontinental railway from C-oohrane east towards the city of Quebec ? Last year I gave some figures in the House. Rev. Mr. Caron had 300 settlers on one excursion.


William James Roche: Is he not employed by the Provincial Government ?


Charles Marcil: I think he had some mission from the Dominion Government. He is probably employed by the province. His literature was printed, I think, under the auspices of the department.


William James Roche: He may be associated with one of the colonization societies.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister any information ?


William James Roche: Not 'here.


Charles Marcil: A complaint was made at the time that the National Transcontinental was not being operated, and that those settlers were taken in under very great difficulties. The letter I received at the time said that a group of them who were ready to leave their homes in Quebec had to go by a round-about route through Ontario and then come back to Quebec. That is too large a question, however, to take up to-night. I do not know whether any arrangement has been made since then by the department to facilitate settlement along the line of the National Transcontinental from Quebec westward.


William James Roche: I understand several of the colonization agents are using their best endeavours to get settlers along the National 4 Transcontinental. I do not know about this particular district.


Charles Marcil: The department is not doing anything itself ?


William James Roche: No.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister not think it should do something ?


William James Roche: When I say no, the department is1 paying some of the colonization agents. I do not know whether this [Mi-. Chisholm.]
gentleman is paid by the department or not. Several of those colonization agents are in the employ of the Government and they are bringing in settlers along the line of the National Transcontinental.


Charles Marcil: Outside of paying the
salaries of the agents, does the department give any assistance to the work?


William James Roche: No, except by grants to
colonization societies.


Charles Marcil: They have the distribution of the funds?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: I think I understood the minister to say two or three minutes ago that no effort is being put forward to bring labouring men into the country at the present time, and I also understood him to say that efforts are being put forward to bring in men to put on the land.


William James Roche: We are not paying bonuses on any class of immigrants coming to Canada except agriculturists, agricultural labourers and domestic servants. Those are the only classes of people whom we are encouraging to come into the country.


John Hampden Burnham: Is the minister paying people to come to this country?


William James Roche: There is a bonus paid to
booking agents for every agriculturist they bring into the country. We do not pay passages, and we do not assist the immigrants themselves in any way.


Charles Marcil: Do you make it a condition that immigrants shall settle in the country districts and not in the cities?


William James Roche: We endeavour to do so.
We have immigration agents to look after them.


Charles Marcil: The minister realizes
the importance of having them settle on the land?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: The decision of
the minister as to the present condition of affairs is a very wise one. I agree that we should bring into the country at the present time only agriculturists-men who will go on to the land. For the future policy of immigration into this country, that would be the very best policy that the minister could adopt, and it would be in the bestt interests of the country. We have in this country too many men who do not go on to the land. If you take the

figures for the last few years and compare the population of the various cities with the population of the country, districts, you will be surprised to find how much, faster the population in the cities has increased than the population of the rural parts of the country has done. I find that from 1900 to 1910 the rural population of the whole of Canada increased only 574,000, whereas the city population in the same time increased by 1,250,000, or 2J times as fast as the rural population did. A portion of that increase in the cities must be due to the fact that we in Canada have not pursued the right policy of bringing immigration into this country. We * have pursued the policy of getting men in in numbers, and not of picking the men whom we allow to come in. We all agree that we should build up the agricultural districts from one end of the country to the other. The cities apparently grow fast enough of themselves. Out of all the immigrants who came into the country during the last fifteen years, a large percentage went into the cities. It is difficult to understand why they go there. A large number of people go on to the land as farm labourers and homesteaders for a short time, and then gradually drift into the cities, and they do so under conditions that lead to starvation amongst a great many of them. I have never been able to understand why it is that people in this country will drift into the cities. They must be attracted by the glamour and pleasures of the cities. Wages may have something to do with it. It is generally understood that the wages paid in our cities are higher than the wages paid on the farms; but very often a man on a farm gets his board and lodging in addition to his wages. In that case the wages on the farm a*e almost as good as the wages paid in the cities. As a matter of fact, if you take the total amount of wages paid every year in the great manufacturing cities of Canada, and the total number of men who work in those factories, and find the average, it runs from $35 to $39 per month. Therefore, in so far as wages are concerned, there is simply no reason why men should drift into the cities from the farms. There are great industries in Canada. One is the manufacturing industry, and another is the agricultural industry. In so far as the strength of the industries are concerned, the agricultural industry at the present time is far ahead of the manufacturing industry, not only in the amount of capital invested, but in the amount of men employed and in the amount of production.
I think there is no question that our great success in the future will depend upon whether we have or have not a successful body of farmers and proper conditions surrounding those farmers. It is the duty not only of the Dominion Government but of the Provincial Government and of our municipal institutions to attempt to make conditions on the farm more pleasing to the people and thereby increase the production' of our farms. If the Department of Immigration should not attempt to bring in any but agriculturists it would be well advised and its policy would be in the interests of the country.


John Hampden Burnham: We took evidence for two years upon this very question before the Old Age Pensions Committee. We had people there from all over Canada, people in every walk of life. They were sworn and they gave their evidence absolutely without prejudice. I think that if the hon. gentleman will peruse that testimony he will find out largely why it is that the times seem so out of joint. It is true, there is a degree of glamour about life in the city-not in Montreal, I should judge by what is stated by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil)-


Charles Marcil: In Peterborough.


John Hampden Burnham: -but people like to be together where they can enjoy the moving picture shows, the advantages of the churches, the schools, and so on. But the fact of the matter is that life in the country -so the testimony shows-is such a disjointed, unorganized, unreliable sort of affair that the people do not really know what to make of it. The consequence is that when an attempt is made to move from the city to the country the people find they are up against hostile conditions. There is a chilly reception on the part of the people of the country for the urban settler. A man is easily swallowed up when he goes into the city from the country, but it is very hard for him to be swallowed up when he goes from the city to the country. The upshot of it all undoubtedly will be that strenuous conditions such as are spoken of by the hon. member for Bonaventure as existing in Montreal will compel the Government to devise some means of distributing the population of the country with advantage to themselves and advantage to the state. To my mind it is an absolutely senseless proposition to keep on asking people to come in here from outside *[DOT]men we are making no attempt tr>
ogen

erate conditions at home. I cannot understand-no doubt, it is largely due to my limited understanding-why we should allow these conditions to continue. This country shows the extraordinary condition of tens of thousands of people in the bread line, roaming you may say through the purlieus of the cities in quest of work or food, and in a terrible condition of both body and mind and with no prospect for the future. These conditions, of course, may be said to have been brought about by fifteen years of misrule. They are not the product of a day, all must admit that.
As one of those who sat on the Old Age Pensions Committee, I deem it my duty to express the opinion that something ought to be done; that it is entirely improper to ignore the conditions revealed by the evidence taken before that committee at considerable expense. I must protest against any attempt to bring people in from outside until such time as we reconstruct the conditions within our country. Perhaps it is due to the fact that a momentous war is taking place, but conditions are rapidly becoming very serious in Canada. I do not think we are humane; I do not think we display that loving kindness which we certainly ought to display. Economic considerations are our daily care, but solicitude for the people is not; we are prepared to let them go to the block. I wish in my humble way to call attention to this fact. The situation must be dealt with; the people cannot and must not be ignored. This movement from the city to the country must be carried on with some degree of skill and promptitude. The continuance of the present system of calling people from all over the world to come to our country, at considerable expense to ourselves, while at the same time not extending a brass farthing for the benefit of our own people in that respect, is something that is quite beyond me.


Mr. BICKERDIKE:: Is any provision likely to be made for the inspection of immigrants when they take passage on the other side instead of when they reach this country?


William James Roche: I presume the hon. mem' her means by that: have we duplicated our medical inspection system, or have we under consideration the idea of abolishing our Canadian inspection and adopting in lieu thereof inspection on the other side of the ocean. As to the latter, we have not done so. As to the former, any persons who attempt to come into Canada in contraven-

tion of our immigration regulations or who prove to be undesirable, are within a certain specified time taken back to their homes at the expense of the steamship companies, and the onus is upon the steamship' companies to see that they do not bring over any undesirables. They have medical inspection on the other side of the ocean. The inspectors examine the emigrants before they board ships, and accompany the vessel on the trip over. In addition to that, the boards of trade in the old country have their system of medical examination. If we attempted to put a staff of medical men over there, I do not think they would have any real status, and in respect of cases developing on board ship, we would still have to have a staff in Canada as well. I admire the hon. gentleman's persistency in trying to bring about the adoption of his suggestion in this regard. Theoretically, his doctrine is all right; I approved it more or less myself when in opposition. But when you have the responsibilities of administration on your shoulders, you have to take other things into consideration. It must be agreed that the carrying out of this principle is surrounded by a great many difficulties. In the (first place, when the emigrants get on board ship at Glasgow, Liverpool and other parts, they arrive but a short time before the departure of the ships, and any medical inspection made at that time would necessarily be a very hurried one. There are features connected with deportation which we all deplore; families are broken up, persons in this country are unable to bring their friends over. But before these people take passage for Canada they know what regulations they have to comply with, financially and otherwise. More persons are rejected by reason of their not measuring up to the financial requirements than for any other reason; nevertheless, they all know before they leave their own country what the requirements are in this respect.


Robert Bickerdike: The hon. minister
is perhaps not aware, as some of us in the East are, that families that land in New York or at our own ports are often broken up for some reason; the mother or the child has to return to the other side. Expense should not stand in the way of adjustment of this matter. If the people are not fit to come into the country, they are not fit to come when the ship leaves the other side. Of course, in some cases, objections may develop on the way over, but as a general rule every person coming to this country

should know before he leaves the other side whether he will be allowed to land here or not. My hon. friend says that the great trouble is shortage of dollars and cents. I do not think it is a good policy to reject persons for that reason; many men possessing but $5 may be much more desirable than others who have as much as $200. For the past six sessions I have urged this matter upon the department, pointing out that it is an injustice and a crime that families who are brought out to this country simply because some immigration agent makes a little out of it. should be broken up when they get to this side. Once more- probably it is the last opportunity I shall ever have to do so in the House-I wish to impress upon the minister the necessity of inspecting emigrants on the other side instead of when they reach Canada.


John Patrick Molloy: How many officials were added to the immigration staff at Winnipeg between September 1 and December 31, 1914?


William James Roche: I would have to get that
information for the hon. member. Very few additions to the staff have been made; those who have been added to the staff have been placed there temporarily in connection with seed grain distribution.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the minister a representative of his department in Prince Edward Island.


William James Roche: I believe we have one in Charlottetown.


James Joseph Hughes: Can the minister give me his name?


William James Roche: Mr. McCready. He has been located at. Charlottetown.


James Joseph Hughes: He is called publicity agent. How many men are employed in a similar capacity in Nova Scotia?	_


William James Roche: One.


Charles Marcil: After calling the attention of the minister to the conditions existing in Montreal and to the importance of controlling the immigration into that city, I procured from my room the letter addressed to me on the 15th of March by the secretary of the St. Vincent de Paul Society of Montreal. It is well known that the English, Irish and Scotch societies look after the poor of their own nationalities and the St. Vincent de Paul Society covers the French Canadian population,
which of course forms the great bulk of the population of Montreal. Mr. Venier says that last year they came to the relief of three times as many poor people as in former years, and that they have been obliged to organize 75 sections of the society to cover the island of Montreal. On the 15th of February the officers of the society were visiting 3,524 families consisting of 7,094 adults and 11,476 children, forming a total of 18,570 who were receiving charity at that time from this society alone. Many of these are of course Canadians, but a large number are not Canadians, but people who have come to this country, who have gone into employment in the country districts and gradually worked their way into the city. Many of them are of foreign extraction and have become a charge on the community. The society, up to February 21 of this year had expended $54,690 in charity. It must be said to the credit of this society that not one dollar of this money has been paid for services of any of its officials, all the work done by members of the society is done purely for charity. No man or woman receives one dollar for his or her services and therefore this $54,690 is the amount actually expended for charity up to that time. He goes on to say that in the months of January and February alone 137,399 free soups were given to applicants by the charitable institutions in Montreal. This letter is in French, otherwise I would have read it for the benefit of the minister; but I would like to impress upon him the importance, as long as the present conditions exist in Europe and are reflected in Canada, of having very stringent measures adopted by the department to prevent the coming to this country of any man, woman or child liable to become a charge on our cities, because when the country districts are unable to look after these people they work into the cities. Montreal, at the present time, looks after the sick, the maimed, the wounded, the unemployed of practically all of the province of Quebec and a portion of eastern Ontario. When they have no relief of any kind in any of the smaller municipalities or villages, if they are sick beyond the assistance that can be given to them in the rural districts, they work into the cities and the cities have to look after them. The work of this society is greatly to its credit. I wish to impress on the minister the necessity of stringent measures on the opening of navigation to see that no person comes to this

country who is likely to become a charge upon it. This is the most important subject that the Administration has to face in the province of Quebec.


William James Roche: If the Iron, gentleman had inquired a little more closely he would have found that the great bulk of these people are not immigrants.


Charles Marcil: I said that.


William James Roche: 
Frank Oliver: I notice there is a considerable reduction in this vote.


William James Roche: We are economizingcutting down in our advertising and other expenses. We are not expending as much on literature as we did. The High Commissioner is supervising our expenses in

the Old Country in conjunction with the assistant superintendent, Air. Smith, and has recommended that certain items of expenditure be omitted during the present year.


Frank Oliver: Will there be a reduction in the number or the character of the atlases that have usually been issued by the department?


William James Roche: That is something we have a considerable demand for. We issue just enough to supply the demands of our agents in the United States and Great Britain.


Frank Oliver: I believe there are two
atlases issued; one an atlas of Canada, and the other a western atlas. Can the minister say what the average yearly cost of these atlases has been for the last few years?


William James Roche: I can not give the exact
figures just now, but the price has remained about the same for several years.


Frank Oliver: Where are they printed?


William James Roche: The Alontreal Gazette
prints a large number of them. The atlases for United States distribution are printed in Chicago, by Rand, AIcNally & Co., I think.
Air. OLI\TER. Which atlas does the Gazette print?


William James Roche: The atlas of Canada.
Immigration-administration of Chinese immigration ; salaries, $30,000 ; contingencies, $20,000.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister make a statement as to how our Chinese immigration during the last fiscal or calendar year compares with the previous years?


William James Roche: In 1913-14 there were 238
exempts, and in (the nine months of 1014-15 only 95. In 1913-14, 5,274 paid the head tax, and for the nine months of 1914-15, 1,148. The total revenue for 1913-14 was $2,644,593, for the nine months of 1914-15, $577,912. There has been no Chinese immigration since the first of July, for it is prohibited by the Order in Council passed last year.


Charles Marcil: Do you keep track of the Chinese after they come into Canada?


William James Roche: The American authorities
say that we get the head tax, and they get the Chinamen.


Charles Marcil: There is a large colony of Chinamen in Alontreal. Has the department no control over them?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: Perhaps the rule works
the other way, and we may be getting the Chinese, whether the United States gets the head tax or not. There is no doubt at all that there is a very large Chinese population in Canada, and that it is increasing. Would the minister say whether it is the policy of the Government to permit or restrict the further increase of that population.


William James Roche: The Order in Council prohibits them from coming into Canada at all, which is about the best form of restriction we can have. According to the last census there were about 27,000 Chinese in Canada. Since 1885, 87,000 have come into Canada.


Frank Oliver: The prohibition of the
entry of Chinese applies only to British Columbia courts?


William James Roche: That is practically the
only way they come in.


Frank Oliver: It may be the only way
they come in legally, but I am not at all satisfied that it is the only way they do come in. I think they have the same advantage in crossing the United States boundary as other people have.


Charles Marcil: Three is no Japanese or
Hindu immigration at the present time?


William James Roche: No Hindu, and very little Japanese.


Frank Oliver: Are the Japanese subject to the same restrictions as the Chinese?


William James Roche: Under the Lemieux agreement with Japan me immigration cannot exceed a certain number.


Charles Marcil: Not even in war time
when they are our Allies?


William James Roche: The immigration does not reach the limit stipulated in the agreement.


Frank Oliver: The Order in Council does not apply to them?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: The minister has stated
that there were so many exempts. On what condition do they become exempt?


William James Roche: Tnose who are exempt are merchants and their families, and students who come to attend Canadian colleges or schools. It has been strongly urged that we should make our regulations more generous in regard to the admission of Chinese students. It is claimed that the Un.instates are very much more liberal in that respect, and thait they derive an advantage commercially for when these students go home after completing their course they practically become commercial agents and advertise the Unitea States quite extensively.


Frank Oliver: The reas n I ask about
exempts is that before I left Edmonton a gentleman called on me and made representations in regard to the right of a naturalized Chinaman to bring over his wife from China. This man was able to pay the head tax, but did not wish to pay it. He did not consider it compatible with the dignity of a Canadian citizen. That is as it nas been represented to me. Might I ask whether in such a case -ie woman would, be exempt from the head tax?


William James Roche: If this gentleman was a
merchant his wife would be exempt, but if he was not a merchant the fact of his being naturalized would not allow his wife to escape the head tax.


Frank Oliver: That is as it was represented to me. Half a dozen Chinamen may come to Canada ana be constituted a mercantile company, and then they are entitled to bring in their wives free. This particular Chinaman came in many years ago, I believe as an employee, and though not a merchant he runs a large laundry ana employs a considerable quantity of labour.
He is debarred from the privilege that is accorded others under circumstances that would seem not to entitle them to it so much as he. I am not making any plea on his behalf; I am merely placing before the minister the case as I received it. Under the circumstances I have stated, does the prohibition still stand?


William James Roche: Yes, unless he is a merchant. If we were to allow every one who runs a laundry to come in with his family, without paying the head-tax, there would be difficulty.


William Melville Martin: There are two timber reserves near Dauphin, one called the Riding Mountain reserve and the other called the Duck Mountain reserve, and it is rumoured through the country that these reserves are always held up as plums before the people at election time. It has even been said that men who vote right in the elections are promised homesteads on these reserves. What is the policy of the minister with respect to the further opening up of

these timber reserves; are there going to be any more homesteads on them or will they be left as they are?


William James Roche: It is not my intention to interfere at all with the boundaries of either the Riding mountain or the Duck mountain. Where any lands are withdrawn it is by reason of an inspection made and a report .to the minister, and they are taken out by Act of Parliament. It is not my intention to withdraw any lands from the existing boundaries.


William Melville Martin: Then the position would be that there would not be any more homesteads there?


William James Roche: There will not be any more homesteads.


William Melville Martin: I am afraid the statement of the minister will cause some consternation among his political supporters in that district. At the last local election in Manitoba, and even in the election before, it was stated that those who voted Conservative were to get homesteads on one of these reserves. I moved for the papers some time ago, but I suppose they will not be brought down now so late in the session.
I have asked if there was an investigation conducted by Inspector Cuttle, into certain things that took place in connection with the Duck Mountain reserve. Does the minister know anything about it?


William James Roche: I know of no investigation conducted by Inspector Cuttle regarding any lands in connection with the Duck Mountain reserve.


William Melville Martin: The source of my information is reliable and I can well understand that there might be an investigation which the minister would know nothing about, on account of the extent of his department. Ihe facts brought to my notice are briefly these: it is said that the investigation was held either at a place called Roblin or As-sessippi, into certain charges of irregularities in the opening up of the timber on the Duck Mountain reserve. At that investigation there were five different witnesses, whose names I have here, who appeared and said they were to get the privilege of squatting on certain tracts of land on that reserve and subsequently to get the right of homesteading, if they voted Conservative in the provincial election. The second condition imposed on them was, that they should pay $100 each to a man named R. H. Keay, who is a justice of the peace, and 
magistrate at a place called Roblin. I am also informed that there was evidence given before Mr. Cuttle at that investigation, that no fewer than 17 promissory notes for $100 each were drawn up in a certain store in, I think, Roblin, and signed by 17 of these applicants for homesteads, and that all of these men subsequently were allowed homestead entries. I do not pay very much attention to the fact that they voted Conservative, but I do pay attention, if what I am told is true, to the fact that 17 men had paid $100 each to a justice of the peace located in that part of the country, as a condition precedent to their getting a homestead. If that is the condition of affairs, I submit to the minister that it is very serious. I respectfully submit to the minister also, that if there has been no investigation and if these facts have not been brought to his attention previously, some investigation ought to take place now, and if what I am informed is true, some action should be taken.


William James Roche: Is Mr. Keay in the employ of this Government?


William Melville Martin: No. He is a justice of the peace and a very prominent Conservative in that district.


William James Roche: What has he got to do
with it ?


William Melville Martin: Apparently he had everything to do with it, because fee had to get $100 before a man could get a homestead, and the most peculiar part of the affair is that the inspector who made the homestead report, subsequently, Inspector Spears, recommended every one of the men who paid the hundred dollars to get a homestead, and not a single man who did not pay one hundred dollars, got a homestead. I bring these facts to the attention of the minister in the hope that an investigation will be made. I know that the minister himself would not stand for it for a minute, but the minister is not aware-to use an expression I have heard used before-of all the skulduggery that goes on in Western Canada under the guise of his department. The minister does not know anything about it, and if he did he would not stand for it for a minute. I think the minister told us that there was no politics in his department in the West. As far as the Department of Immigration is concerned, I do not know whether they have politics in it or not.
I am not worrying about that veTy much, but I can tell the minister that there are

politics in the administration of the Department of the Interior, and whether he is >to blame for it ot not I do not know. A condition precedent to a man becoming homestead inspector in Saskatchewan is that he must be one of the most violent Tories in the district he resides in. There is not one of them who was not a violent Tory politician, and there is not one of them whom I know at the present time who is not more an election agent than he is a homestead inspector, and that not only in Dominion elections but in provincial elections. These are facts that should be brought to the attention of the minister because I know that so far as he is concerned he does not want to administer his department in a political way.


William James Roche: Whoever the hon. gentleman's informant is has informed him wrongly. The only lands I know of, taken out of the Duck Mountain reserve, were taken out prior to this Government coming into power and were given to so-called squatters, and the gentleman who did this subsequently on oath swore that be gave them to men who were friends of the then Administration, and who were not squatters at all. He did it by the wholesale, and he admitted he did it. That is all I know about the Duck Mountain reserve. As to the questions which the hon. gentleman has been putting on the Order Paper as lto Inspector Cuttle's investigation into the Duck Mountain reserve, he has been truthfully answered. Inspector Cuttle held no investigation respecting any land regarding Duck mountain.


William Melville Martin: I did not put any question on the Order Paper about Duck mountain; I moved for the papers.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman wanted the Inspector's report, and there is no report because he held no investigation into that reserve. But Inspector Cuttle did hold an investigation in connection with certain charges made by one individual, a very strong Liberal, who was a disappointed homestead-seeker himself. At my instigation these homesteads were thrown open some time last fall, they having been taken out of the Riding mountain by Act of Parliament last session, as the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr Cruise) knows. Last fall after I returned home during my convalescence, I did give instructions to the department to throw these lands open for homesteaders under the regulations;
but before doing so, I asked them to have an inspection made to see if there were any bona fide settlers on that reserve and, if there were, while they had no legal claim by reason of being on the. lands after survey, still I thought it would be right and proper,	if	they	werelegitimate squatters	and	bona fide
settlers, that they should be protected. The inspection was made; the report was sent into the department, and homestead entry was granted, I understand, to all of those who were favourably reported upon. Each individual case was reported upon as to the amount of work done, the amount of improvements made, whether or not buildings have been put up, the amount of brushing done, and so on. There were some cases where the men were not at home when the inspector went around, but the inspector heard from the neighbours that they were away threshing with some one or something of that nature. Such cases were not favourably passed upon, and the inspector was instructed to go back and make another inspection to satisfy himself that those cases were as legitimate as were the ones passed upon. A letter was sent to the department by a gentleman-I do not know whether he was a Galician or a German; I think probably he was a Galician-who had applied for a homestead. He had exhausted his right for homesteading; and because lie' did not get a homestead, he made some rather serious accusations. Some of them were true, but many of them were untrue.


William Melville Martin: When was that investigation held?


William James Roche: After the New Year.


William Melville Martin: Was it not in December or last fall?


William James Roche: Instructions may have been given to hold the investigation in December, but I do not think the investigation was held until after the New Year. The man stated that because he' was a Liberal, he was denied a homestead, whereas other settlers who had signed notes to a man- he did not say who the man was-had been allowed to take up homesteads. It chanced that the assizes were going on in my own town, and a Mr. Keay, who was on the Grand Jury, came to see me at my residence.	In discussing matters
generally, I	told him	of this
complaint that had been forwarded to me by the department. I immediately replied to the department: " That kind of thing

cannot go on, if it is going on, and I wish you to authorize an investigation to be held to see if those charges are true." I mentioned this matter to Mr. Keay. Mr. Keay said: "Oh, there is nothing in it; I am the individual to whom they refer. What happened was this: In a few instances those Galicians who had squatted upon the land did not know where their stakes were, because the grass and scrub had grown up and covered them. I am old settler there "-he lives at Assessippi ;- "they asked me if I would go out and locate their lines. I went out. I charged them a fee for doing so. I got very little, but I took some notes." He left the wrong impression upon my mind. He left the impression that there were only two or three cases and that it was a matter of only $10 or $15. Therefore I ordered Mr. Cuttle to hold the investigation. Mr. Cuttle went up there; held the investigation; took the evidence under oath, and found that Mr. Keay had taken about seventeen notes for $100 a-piece from those people for locating them upon the land, not because they had voted this way or that, because as a matter of fact the evidence does not show that. I have read the evidence.


William Melville Martin: The information that I received came from a man who gave evidence before Mr. Cuttle.


William James Roche: Was that Mr. McLellan?


William Melville Martin: I do not wish to give the name to the minister. I am informed that this man gave evidence before Mr. Cuttle to the effect that he saw seventeen of those notes made out for $100 a-piece in favour of Mr. Keay, and that five of the men themselves said that they had to give the notes before they could get homesteads. If the report shows anything else, the evidence was not reported correctly.


William James Roche: I do not think that is in the evidence of Mr. McLellan. He swore that it was a very ordinary thing for these Ruthenians to offer money to the Canadian settlers to do this kind of work. In fact, he said, he had been offered it many times himself, and they look upon it as nothing wrong. He entirely exonerated the officials of the department of wrong-doing. This man Keay had nothing to do with the department. He went out to locate the land. These notes were given, but I wrote to the homestead inspector and the inspector of land agencies to notify each and

every one of the men who had given the notes not to to pay a dollar. I said it was nothing less than robbery. I told him he would not take it into court if he has any regard for his reputation. I may say that I am no longer a friend of Keay's if that is any satisfaction to the hon. gentleman.


William Melville Martin: He is a justice of the
peace.


William James Roche: We do not appoint justices of the peace.


Frank Oliver: That is highly to the minister's credit.


William James Roche: He imposed upon these settlers, no doubt. I do not know that the evidence shows that in any case these notes had been paid, though it shows that the notes were given. I gave instructions that they were not to be paid. Nobody connected with the department had anything to do with it. There was no promise about votes; it "was after the Provincial elections had been held. These people did not know they were going to have their rights protected until the month of October. That was the month I returned from Rochester, and I was glad to know that no appointee of this department had anything to do with it, and I think Mr. McLellan was good enough to state that in his evidence.
Government of the Yukon Territory-salaries and expenses conected with the administration of the Territory, $128,000.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister give us an idea of the population of the Yukon at this time?


William James Roche: If hon. members do not
mind, I will ask the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Alfred Thompson) to speak, as he is better posted on the subjeot than I.


Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON:: The population of the Yukon at the last census enumeration was about 9,000.


Charles Marcil: In what year was that
taken?


Alfred Thompson: In 1911. The population of the Yukon fluctuates somewhat. Last year a few more people came into the Territory than left it.
The Yukon-grant to local council, $125,000.


Charles Marcil: How is that expended?


William James Roche: We make a grant and the local council expends it.


Charles Marcil: What is it expended for?


Alfred Thompson: In building roads and trails in outlying districts, repairing bridges and maintaining roads already built; also in providing for hospitals and schools and for other charges devolving upon the local government of the territory. Besides this we have a special grant this year of $100,000 for roads. Nothing is a more important factor in the development of a frontier country than transportation. This is particularly true of the Yukon, where the cost of freighting goods and supplies from the coast cities or from the East to the Territory is exceedingly high, compared with charges in other sections of Cahada. These moneys are used chiefly for transportation purposes.


Charles Marcil: Does mining remain the
chief industry of the Territory?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, and I am glad
to inform the committee that the output of gold has been well maintained for the last few years. We are producing about $5,000,000 per year in gold. We have also some very encouraging prospects in the way of silver-lead mines in a new section of the territory recently opened on the Upper Stewart river. Copper mining has been successfully carried on at White Horse in the southern end of the territory, and was in a very promising state until the outbreak of the war, when the prices	of	metals dropped	and
mining had to be temporarily suspended. Coal mining is also a factor in the economic development of the Territory, and geologists tell us that we have within the four corners of the Yukon five billion tons of good coal.


Charles Marcil: Of what kind?


Alfred Thompson: It belongs to the lignite series so far as yet discovered. It it fairly well distributed.


Charles Marcil: Is placer mining carried on?


Alfred Thompson: There are three classes of placer mining, the original method of thawing hoist and sluice-box, the dredging method and the hydraulic method. The greater part of the gold is won by the use of huge dredges which float in their own ponds. The dredging industry in the Yukon is carried to a very high state of development; we have some of the very largest gold dredges in the world. These are driven by electricity developed from the water-powers on the Klondvke river itself.


Charles Marcil: Are there any American companies operating in the Yukon at present?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, we have one large American company, one Canadian company, and another company is being floated which will be chiefly English capital. There is in the outlying districts of the Klondyke, and in fact in other districts of the Yukon, the ordinary placer mining concerning which the hon. member asked. But in the older creeks in the Klondyke district itself, gold is won chiefly by dredging and hydraulicking.


Charles Marcil: Has there been any improvement in the transportation facilities within the last year or two? Is the country easier of access?


Alfred Thompson: Not so far as the building of railways is concerned. We still use the railway connecting tide-water at Skagway, Alaska, with Whitehorse, on the Yukon river.


Charles Marcil: This road runs in American territory?


Alfred Thompson: Twenty-three miles
from tide-water to the summit is in Ameri

can territory. The road is 110 miles long. When we reach the Yukon river, the freight is transferred to river boats and carried down to Dawson. Of course, we have a system of boats going right to Behring sea. Freight can be transhipped there to ocean boats and taken down the North Pacific to the ports of British Columbia and Washington. There is a regular steamship service there.


Frank Oliver: How much royalty is collected on the $5,000,000 of gold output?


Alfred Thompson: The royalty on gold in the Yukon is 21 per cent. Every dollar's worth of gold raised must pay this royalty at the Gold Commissioner's office.


Frank Oliver: What proportion of this
$5,000,000 was taken out by the more primitive method, aside from hydraulicking and dredging?


Alfred Thompson: I could not give the figures exactly, but I should say that at least four and a half millions of that gold is won by dredging and hydraulicking. Certainly not more than three-quarters of a million is won by the ordinary placer mining method to-day.


Charles Marcil: Where is the gold
assayed?


Alfred Thompson: A good deal of it is
shipped to our own assay office at the Mint in Ottawa. It is sent in small bricks byregistered mail direct to the mint. This was the rule until the beginning of 1914, but for a time the Mint was not in a position to handle our gold because they weie enlarging the refinery and so the refinery was not working. The gora that our own mint does not get, goes to the mint in California, in the main. Some goes to the Seattle assay office. When the Klondyke was discovered the United States placed an assay office in the city of Seattle for the purpose of getting the Klondyke and Alaskan gold to come to the Pacific coast cities. That was a very good, thing for them to do; their policy justified itself. It resulted in a stream of our gold pouring into the Pacific coast cities of the United States for years, and the cities of Seattle, Portland and San Francisco benefited very materially. At that time we were not in a position to handle our own output of gold. Since then, I am glad to say, we have established an assay office of our own in Vancouver, and the gold may be marketed there. But it can also be forwarded to the mint here by either express or mail. A good deal of it comes here, and mat which does not come here, goes in the main, to San Francisco or to the assay office in Seattle.


Charles Marcil: Is the Yukon self-supporting so far as agriculture is concerned?


Alfred Thompson: Not as yet. But there are great agricultural possibilities in the Yukon. One of the difficulties we have there is in importing feed for our stock. In the Yukon hay sells at the same price per pound as oats the year round, and in the fifteen years during which I have been in the Territory, I have never known hay to be sold for less than four cents a pound or $80 a ton, and at this time of the year, in the spring, it is from $100 to $120 a ton.


Charles Marcil: Quite a luxury.


Alfred Thompson: Yes, however, the
United States Government is carrying on some very interesting experiments in agriculture in the Yukon valley, in Alaska, just across the boundary. They have there a gentleman named Georgeson who is attending to some agricultural experiment stations that they have in the Yukon valley. He has succeeded in getting a type of alfalfa which matures in Siberia in about our latitude and in about the same environment that we have in the Yukon

He has succeeded in transplanting and growing successfully yellow-flowered alfalfa in the Yukon valley. I have this information from himself and it is accurate. He entertains the hope that eventually the Yukon valley will raise its own fodder.


John Howard Sinclair: Where can the seed of
that alfalfa be procured?


Alfred Thompson: I cannot say just
where it can be procured, but if my hon. friend will write to Professor Georgeson at Sitka, Alaska, who is in charge of the agricultural stations of the United States Government there, he will be glad to give him any information on the subject.


John Howard Sinclair: The farmers of Nova
Scotia have repeatedly tried to raise alfalfa and, on account of the climate, I suppose, have failed to do so successfully. It is grown very successfully in the western states, especially on the foothills of the Cascades. If there is a grade of alfalfa that will grow in a colder climate, it should be generally known so that the people may have an opportunity of getting the seed.


Mr. HAZEN:: My impression is that they have succeeded in growing alfalfa successfully in the neighbourhood of Sussex, in Kings county, N.B.


Alfred Thompson: We grow excellent
potatoes there. Barley and oats ripen there every year. Wheat has been known to ripen there, although it is not grown extensively. The cost of labour is so great in the Yukon that up to the present time agriculture has not been carried on to the extent of the great possibilities the country offers.


Charles Marcil: What is the length of the summer season there-what we might call the farming season?


Alfred Thompson: Wild flowers bloom in the vicinity of Dawson about the same time that they do in Ottawa-about the last week in April. We have practically no spring; just a plunge from winter into summer. May, June and July are our three summer months. August is a fall month; it is quite cool in September.


Charles Marcil: I suppose frost come in
August?


Alfred Thompson: We have a frost every year in July. That is one thing we have to look out for in raising some of the tenderer plants.


Alexander William Chisholm: You grow
potatoes there, but you cannot use them, can
.MARCH 26, 1915
you ? They are very large and soft, are they not ?


Alfred Thompson: We have a great many things to learn about vegetables. What my hon. friend says is more or less true. Hon. gentlemen must understand that this ground is frozen to bed-rock. We have a very light rainfall there, and on account [DOT]of continuous thawing caused by the warm sun of summer, moisture rises from the frozen ground in sufficient quantities to make things .grow. Potatoes grown in the rich loam of the river bottoms are wet and soggy, to a certain extent, but on the hillsides, where the loam is more mixed with sand, where there is not so much vegetable matter, and where the hillsides are well diained, we can grow a potato that is very dry and mealy; really a good tuber.


Alexander William Chisholm: I understand that you are quite successful in raising certain kinds of vegetables ?


Alfred Thompson: Yes. Cauliflower and celery thrive there. Radishes grow rapidly and are very good. We raise tons of tomatoes, but under glass.


Charles Marcil: Are most of the people in the Yukon of Canadian origin?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, they are of Canadian origin, or have become citizens of Canada. In the early days the greater number of the citizens were foreigners, but to-day they are practically all Canadians.


Charles Marcil: Is there any hope that in the near future there will be sufficient development to attract a larger population ?


Alfred Thompson: Hope springs eternal in the human breast-this is particularly so among the prospectors in these metalliferous regions. Every year a small army of prospectors roam around among the hills; we always expect that one of them will discover another Klondyke, although, unfortunately, that hope has not yet been fulfilled. Only a small percentage of that vast territory of 200,000 square miles has yet been even examined in anything more than a most superficial way. The people live chiefly along the great water-courses, the Yukon and its tributaries. The country has a great future; the last page of its history has not yet been written by any means.


Charles Marcil: Relatively speaking, is ths country as good as Alaska is?


Alfred Thompson: We believe it is, with this exception: we have not quite the
variety of climate that they have in Alaska. In the Yukon we are shut, off from the sea. The strip of sea-coast from Mount, St. Elias to the Portland canal went with the sale of Alaska to the United States by Russia; therefore we in the Yukon have no seacoast, on the Pacific, while the Alaskan people have. On that sea-coast they have a different climate altogether from what we have in the plateau which is drained by the Yukon river. So far as the interior of Alaska is concerned, perhaps our Yukon country is a little better, because we have in the south-eastern portion of the Yukon very large areas suitable for grazing, which eventually will be an important industry in the Yukon. As the Mackenzie River valley and the Northwest is settled, and grazing land becomes scarcer, the valleys of the rivers tributary to the Yukon will furnish grazers large areas where they can follow their business profitably.


Charles Marcil: Has there been any appreciable change in the climate of the Tukon within the last ten years, since the country has become more thickly populated?


Alfred Thompson: I really think not. The records do not go back very far, but so far as they do give us information, we have not been able to notice that there has been any appreciable change. This winter has been exceptionally mild, but I think that mildness has prevailed all over the country.


Frank Oliver: When I was last in the Yukon I observed that fires had destroyed timber along the rivers. Is there a more systematic protection against fire now, and has there been any destruction of timber since that time? I would consider that such timber as there is there is very valuable, and that it is necessary to see that it is conserved at almost all costs.


Alfred Thompson: The hon. member is right. Timber is a most valuable asset of our country, for its present and ruture development. We have lost a good deal of timber by fire, but we have fire rangers now whose particular business it is to stamp out fires.
The Northwest Mounted Police also do excellent work in this regard. We try to stamp fires out as soon as possible or prevent them if we can, because we realize how important it is to conserve our timber resources in that territory.

Grant to Local Council for maintenance of and repairs to roads, $100,000.


Frank Oliver: What are the principal roads?


Alfred Thompson: The principal road is our winter road from Whitehorse, at the head of navigation on the Yukon to Dawson. -It is about 360 miles in length, and is our main thoroughfare for seven months in the year. Besides that we have roads radiating from Dawson to the gold-producing streams, a very fine system and one on which the Government has spent a great deal of money. The expenditure is justified because gold-mining is the basic industry of the country, and it is of the utmost importance to get supplies into the mines. This is in the immediate vicinity of Dawson, and we are extending the system up the Klondike valley and up the Stewart and White rivers. Wherever, in fact, there are indications of a camp being located, we try as soon as possible to give roads to connect with the watercourses,


Frank Oliver: How far does the winter road extend west from Whitehorse towards the Kluane valley?


Alfred Thompson: We have a road there 150 miles through the interior towards the Kluane country, perhaps more. Then there are roads around Whitehorse, connecting the various mines with Whitehorse and some in Fortymile in the lower end of the territory. All of these roads cost a good deal of money to maintain from year to year and of course new roads are required from time to time. For instance, last year on the overland trail from Whitehorse to Dawson we put ferries on the Yukon and Stewart rivers, so that now a person may drive by automobile from the head of navigation to Dawson City.


Charles Marcil: The roads are fairly good?


Alfred Thompson: Excellent roads, we
have automobiles and all kinds of carriages in this country.


Charles Marcil: Are the roads made with
gravel?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, wherever we can, we build the roads on the side of the hills so that they are easily drained and have a gravel bottom. Of course, in crossing the tundra it is necessary to corduroy. The hon. member for Edmonton will bear me out that we have an excellent system of roads in that country considering that, it is a mining camp.


Frank Oliver: The hon. member says
that the road west of Whitehorse goes 150 miles. What is the communication from Whitehorse to the White river copper fields? Is there a wagon road all the way?


Alfred Thompson: No.


Frank Oliver: How much is road and
how much is pack trail, or do they go in that tvay at all?


Alfred Thompson: Yes, they go in that
way, that is the way they go in. In winter we have a trail connecting Whitehorse with the White River copper fields. In the summer they go by lake Kluane, which is 150 miles west of Whitehorse, and either hire or make boats there and sail down to the White river	and up the
White river to the	copper fields.
They may also go down the Yukon to the White river and up the White river ,to the copper fields. In the Estimates for the Public Works Department there is an item of $5,000 for the removal of obstructions to navigation in the Yukon. I intend to ask the Minister of Public Works to segregate $1,000 of that for the removal of some obstructions in the White river and the Donjek which connects Kluane lake with the White river. This will make it possible for boats to ply from the Yukon into lake Kluane and open up what is in itself a small empire. That will give the miners in that section, which is a promising section, excellent transport accommodation. This will enable them to cut their freight rates in two and you can understand the importance of what I say about transportation when I state that it costs from 14 to 20 cents a pound to get supplies into these remote mining camps. Anything we can do to assist the miner to get supplies to the seat of his operations aids to that extent in the development of that great territory.
Astronomical Surveys-investigations and demarcations of the exterior boundaries of Canada, the triangulation, levelling and topographic work of the Geodetic Survey of Canada, and astronomical work of the Department of the Interior, including the expenses of the Dominion Astronomical Observatory at Ottawa and the branch therefrom at Saanich Hill, B.C., and $1,000 to W. F. King, as International Boundary Commissioner, $260,000.


Frank Oliver: As this is a year of economy, I would ask the minister if the work demanded under this vote is so
11	p.m. urgent that it would not have been profitable to practise economy in regard to this particular vote?


William James Roche: There is a good deal of
this which is uncompleted work. For instance, the boundary survey is made under treaty, and it must be done. We could not very well avoid it. It will not be very long before that is all completed. The portions yet uncompleted are the Ontario-Minnesota boundary and the Quebec-Maine boundary.


Frank Oliver: I think it would have been fairer if the vote had been divided between the boundary work and the geodetic survey. How much of this is for the geodetic survey?


William James Roche: $125,000, and $60,000 for
the boundaries.
To provide for payments on account of the construction and installation of a large reflecting telescope for the Dominion Astronomical Observatory (Western Branch), $31,500.


Frank Oliver: What will be the total
cost of that telescope?


William James Roche: A very little over $90,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the purpose to be achieved by the installation of this expensive instrument, that is as compared with the instruments previously in use?


William James Roche: This is a subject of a rather technical character and I do not profess to be familiar with the details. I understand that it will be the largest telescope in the world. We wished when installing a new telescope to have something that would be of the greatest credit to the country. A very large and influential deputation waited on us urging that this should be gone on with. Certain experiments were made to ascertain the most suitable place for its location, in Eastern and in Western Canada. It was decided that it would be far better at Saanich Hill, which is eight or nine miles out of Victoria. The road up to the telescope will be very expensive to build, but the Provincial Government are allowing us a grant of $10,000 towards the purchase of the land. It is estimated that the road will cost $20,000, which will be paid by the Provincial 'Government.


Charles Marcil: Where is the telescope being made?


William James Roche: Part of it is being made in Cleveland, and part in Pittsburgh.


Charles Marcil: What is the diameter?


William James Roche: Six feet. It is the largest in the world.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to press the matter unduly or to ask for technical explanations that I would not understand even if the minister could make them, but again I say there must be some important purpose to be served by the installation of such a magnificent instrument as this, and I am sure the country would be interested in knowing just what the purpose is. We do not want this information for purposes of criticism, but simply to understand the object the astronomical department has in view.


William James Roche: I understand it is to enlarge the scope of the present work, which they claim is not at all commensurate with what should be done in a country like this. It would be no good for me to go into the technical details for I could not do it justice; but I understand it is to do the work on a much larger scale than our present equipment will permit.


Frank Oliver: Is it research work, educative work, or astronomical?


William James Roche: Astronomical work, stars and other things.


Frank Oliver: As the House meets at 11 in the morning and the committees at 10, and as it is now 11 o'clock and we have put through a number of items this evening, I think the House might rise.


Mr. ROGERS:: We do not want to object at all, but the Secretary of State would like to get some of his Civil Government Estimates through to-night. We could make some progress in the next few minutes, and then adjourn.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to press it very much, but the only person on this side of the House who could criticise the civil government of the Department of the Secretary of State is the ex-secretary, who does not happen to be here. I do not think there would be any time lost if the minister would adjourn.


Mr. CODERRE:: I will go on to-morrow.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.
Saturday, March 27, 1915.