1915-02-10

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Bill No. 4, respecting The Alberta Central Railway Company.-Mr. Michael Clark.
Bill No. 5, respecting The Athabasca and Grand Prairie Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 6, respecting the Brantford and Hamilton Electric Railway Company.-Mr. Barker.
Bill No. 7, respecting the British Columbia and White River Railway Company.- Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 8, respecting the Edmonton, Dun-vegan and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 9, respecting the Essex Terminal Railway Company.-Mr. Wilcox.
Bill No. 10, respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. E. M. Macdonald.
Bill No. 11, respecting the Hudson Bay, Peace River and Pacific Railway Company, and to change its name to ' Winnipeg and Hudson Bay Railway Company.'-Mr. W.
H.	Sharpe.
Bill No. 12, to amend The Independent Order of Foresters Consolidated Act.-Mr. Glass.
Bill No. 13, respecting the Montreal and Southern Counties Railway Company.-Mr. Bickerdike.
Bill No. 14, to ratify and confirm a certain agreement between the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Oliver.
Bill No. 15, respecting certain patents of Duncan Donald McBean.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 16, respecting The Title and Trust Company, and to change its name to ' Chartered Trust and Executor Company.'-Mr. Nesbitt.
Bill No. 17, respecting The Canadian Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.

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Bill No. 18, to amend the Criminal Code -Mr. Robert Bickerdike (St. Lawrence, Montreal)-introduced and read the first time.

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Mr. GEO. E. McCRANEY (Saskatoon) moved for Leave to introduce Bill No. 19, to amend the Criminal Code. He said: The Bill is to protect purchasers of real estate who have paid in full for lands and are unable to get title. It is intended to apply particularly to cases where the person selling has bought under an agreement of sale and still owes money on the lands which he has sold and has no title except the agreement. It frequently happens that such a vendor does not use the money which he receives from his sale in getting title, but uses it for some other purpose. For this reason the man to whom he has sold and who has paid the purchase money cannot get title to the land nor can he get back the money which he has paid for it. ft is obvious that, until such a vendor has
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himself acquired title, the moneys which he receives, unless devoted to that purpose, should be treated as trust moneys. The purpose of the Bill is to fix them with that character. It is an accepted principle of law that a person who has title to lands, sells them under contract, and has received the purchase money, holds the lands in trust for the purchaser until he gives title. The Bill would require him to hold the moneys in trust for the buyer if he could not give title-. The Bill proposes to add a -subsection to section 390 of the Criminal Code respecting criminal breaches of trust, as follows:
Every one who contracts to sell real property and has not in himself the title which he has contracted to give to the purchaser, shall hold any moneys received by him on account of the purchase price, in trust for the purchaser, unless such moneys have been paid by the vendor in acquiring such title. Any violation of this subsection shall be deemed a criminal breach of trust within the meaning of this section.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]
WAR CONTRACTS-PURCHASE OF BOOTS. Mr. LEMIEUX:
1.	From what firms have the boots supplied by the Militia Department for the first expeditionary force been purchased?
2.	By whom have they been reported upon?
3.	What is the price to be paid for them?

Mr. SINCLAIR:: How many aliens were enrolled at the various Government offices opened for that purpose since the 4th of August, 1914?


Major General HUGHES:: Quebec, 8,845; Ontario, 7,571; New Brunswick, 52; Nova Scotia, 1,300; Manitoba, 5,521; Saskatchewan, 1,416; Alberta, 2,350; British Columbia, 1,310; Yukon Territory, 55; total, 28,420. Internments, 1904. Grand total, 30,324.


INSPECTION OF PICKLED FISH.
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	What are the names, addresses and salaries of officers appointed in Nova Scotia under chapter 45, 4-5 George V, ' An Act to provide for the Inspection and Branding of Pickled Fish? '
2.	How many barrels and packages of fish were inspected during the year 1914?
3.	Have rules and regulations been prescribed for the carrying out of the provisions of the said Act?
4.	Will the Minister of Marine and Fisheries attach a copy to the replies to the foregoing?
1.	None have been appointed up to the present.
2.	None, as the Act does not come into operation until May 1, 1915.
3.	Yes.	"
4.	Copy of regulations filed with clerk of the House.


ALBERTA OIL LEASES.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1. What was the total amount received by the Dominion Government for oil leases in Alberta during the years 1913 and 1914?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1. The total amount received by the Dominion Government for oil leases in Alberta during the years 1913 and 1914 was $1,445,130, made up as follows: During 1913, on Dominion lands, $266,838.48; on school lands, $22,216.40. During 1914, on

Dominion lands, $1,052,669.35; on school lands, $103,405.77.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
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Mr. Buchanan: For a return showing how much money was spent amongst the merchants of the city of Medicine Hat for government relief, to whom payments were made, and the total amount in each case.
Mr. Buchanan:	For a return showing the
quantity of coal imported into Alberta. Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, respectively, from the United States in 1914, and the amount of duty collected in each province for coal imported during 1914.

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Mr. \V. M. MARTIN (Regina) asked for leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the question *of supplying seed grain to the farmers of the [DOT]western provinces.
And leave having been granted,
He said: I have no apology to offer for bringing this question to the attention of the House at this early stage in the session. That the matter is of great importance and urgency cannot be disputed. It has been the policy of all governments in Canada to supply seed grain to the farmers of the West in case of need. That has been done on two or three occasions during my residence in western Canada. In 1908 and on previous occasions seed grain was supplied to farmers on unpatented lands, under . certain restrictions. The Government, however, proceeded on the assumption that men who had not yet got their patents for their homesteads were really wards of the Dominion, and for that reason no question whatever was raised as to the proper policy to be pursued by the Dominion Government, no matter which party was in power. I desire to put before the House briefly some of the facts in connection with the conditions at present obtaining in western Canada, in order to show to the Government, to the House, and to the country, that the supply of seed grain, not only to men who reside on unpatented lands, but to men who reside on patented lands, is necessary for the development of the province of Saskatchewan in the year 1915.
It is a well-known fact that a large portion of the province of Saskatchewan-I refer particularly to the southwest portion-was drouth-stricken during the year 1914, with the result that very little crop over a large area of that part of the province was harvested. During last summer, before we held our short session of Parliament in the month
of August, I went through the western part of Saskatchewan from Swift Current, southwest and then east from almost the Alberta boundary, and the whole country for at least a hundred miles had the appearance of a desert. The wind that blew off that portion of the country felt almost like the wind from a desert. There was practically no crop there at all. This condition of affairs was known to the provincial governments of western Canada and also to the Dominion Government as early as the month of October, 1914, and certain steps very properly were taken by the Dominion Government and by the provincial governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta to relieve the need that existed among the farmers of that drouth-stricken area. There is no question to-day that certain relief has been given by the provincial governments and that certain precautions have been taken by the Dominion Government for the purpose of supplying seed grain to that drouth-stricken area; but a difficulty has arisen with respect to farmers who reside outside that drouth-stricken area or on patented land. In addition to the large area which I call the drouth-stricken area, there are other portions of the province of Saskatchewan, smaller in extent, which require assistance by way of seed grain during this year. There are portions of the country not very many miles from the city of Regina in which I reside. Only the day I left Regina to come down to this session of Parliament 1 had two requests in my mail for seed grain, one from a group of farmers who feside within twenty miles of the city of Regina and the other from a group of farmers who reside within forty miles of that city. I mention these instances only to show that the drouth-stricken area is not the only portion of Saskatchewan which requires seed during the present year. There is a great demand for seed grain throughout Saskatchewan outside of this drouth-stricken area.
Yesterday I received a letter addressed to myself from an organization of rural municipalities with headquarters in the city of Saskatoon. I have no doubt that other hon. members on both sides of the House from western Canada have received similar letters. The letter reads as follows:
At a meeting of representatives of the following municipalities, namely, 374, 343, 310, 280, 345, 375, 373, 313, 252 and 344, of district No. 5, Saskatchewan Association Rural Municipalities held in Saskatoon, the following resolution was unanimously passed:
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' That this representative meeting of municipal officers strongly urge on the Dominion Government to supply seed grain to all farmers, in need of same, for seeding season of 1915.
That letter has to do with a large territory. There are, I think, ten municipalities mentioned, which would cover an acreage of about 2,073,600 acres of land. Each municipality in the province of Saskatchewan consists of nine townships so that there are ninety townships represented by that letter, and the need apparently is great in that locality. I find also that only yesterday or the day before a delegation of three or four members of the Regina Board of Trade waited upon the Dominion Government with a view to urging upon it the necessity of taking some immediate action on this question. Seed time will be upon us in a few weeks; the people are anxious as to what will be done; some farmers are without seed grain at the present time, and immediate action is necessary to relieve the doubt that exists and to give the farmers in that section seed grain in order that they may properly produce and harvest a crop in 1915.
I am informed-I do not know whether it is correct or not-that the Department of the Interior has on record over 6,000 applications for seed grain from the province of Saskatchewan outside of this drouth-stricken area altogether. That number does not include applications for seed grain from the province of Alberta and Manitoba; and if my information is correct, the number is very much in excess of 6,000.
The worst feature of the situation as it, exists in the province of Saskatchewan to-day is that the farmers from north to south and from east to west outside the drought-stricken area have been deceived with regard to the attitude of the Dominion Government in respect to this matter of supplying seed grain. It may be an open question whether that is the case or not; but I have only to say that since the month of October the people in the district in which I reside, and I believe the people throughout the length and breadth of the province of Saskatchewan, believed that the Government were going to supply grain to farmers on patented and unpatented lands without the drouth-stricken area. That belief was strengthened by official information sent but by men high in the employ of *cUe Dominion Government. I have here a copy of a letter which, in the month of October, 1914, was sent broadcast throughout the province of Saskatchewan from the

office of the Commissioner of Immigration of the city of Winnipeg. In this particular letter no exception is made whether a farmer resides in the drouth-stricken area or not, or whether on patented or unpatented land. The letter is as follows:
In answer to your letter of recent date, asking for an advance of seed grain, I have to inform you that this department is making arrangements to supply bona fide settlers, who have lost their crop this year and are unable to obtain seed, with good clean seed next spring, delivery to start about the middle of February. This seed will be furnished at cost, cleaned and sacked, and thoroughly inspected by inspectors of the Department of Agriculture, and security therefor taken by a lien on the unpatented land of the settler.
Here is the important part of it:
In the case of the settler having only patented land, a note must be given for the amount so advanced.
Therefore the Government during the months of October, November and December of last year was satisfied with the notes of farmers who had patented land. The Government were particularly generous at that time.
Lien or notes will he repayable on or about January 1, 1916, with interest at five per cent per annum.
The farmer during those months thought he was getting a square deal from the Dominion Government.
When making application give correct description of your land, state whether it. is unpatented, homestead, pre-emption, purchased homestead or script. Should you have only patented land, say so and give exact location of same, state also how much encumbrance against the land, if any. Wheat, oats and barley are the only grains which will be distributed and in sufficient quantities to sow land you have under cultivation and ready for seed.
No limitation put upon the quantity.
I am enclosing you herewith an application form, which, if you will carefully fill out and return to me, will have due consideration.
What I wish the House to note is that the Government in that letter of October, 1914, says that it will supply seed grain for the year 1915 without any limitation whatever. It also states that in cases of patented lands where the Dominion Government would not have control of the title could not exercise the right of lien as provided for by the Dominion Lands Act, an ordinary note would be taken with interest at five per cent per annum, such note payable January 1, 1916.	'
The last point in the letter is that all that any settler, whether on patented or unpat-
FEBRUARY 10, la,:,
ented lands and whether inside or outside the drouth-stricken area, had to do in order to secure seed grain, was to send in his application to the Dominion Lands Office in Winnipeg. With that letter in circulation throughout the province of Saskatchewan, it was a fair assumption for the agriculturist in that country to go upon that he would get seed grain from the Government. The result of that is this-that many farmers, being pressed by wholesalers, machine companies and ordinary creditors, sold their seed, and so have not a bushel to-day. I live in Regina, and for three months, when any person asked me if he was going to get seed grain, I said: Of course, the Dominion Government is going to supply seed to all bona-fide settlers who have lost their crops,, for statements to that effect have been published in their party newspapers throughout western Canada, and in official documents. No exception at all has been made; and even though you have been farming in the West for twenty-five years, and have got a section of land, you are going to get seed grain. So, as I have said, many have sold their seed and have not a bushel to-day. And they have been put in that position by these letters sent out from the Winnipeg office of the Department of Immigration. I have here quotations from newspapers that circulate largely in the province of Saskatchewan. I find that in the minds of the people who were doing business for this Government, and in the minds of the editors of party newspapers, and also in conversations that took place amongst ordinary men, there was never any doubt, until the 11th of January, 1915, that the present Dominion Government was going to supply seed grain this year to every person in the province of Saskatchewan who required it. First, let me quote from the Saskatoon Star of the 24th of November last. This appears in large typo at the top of the column and on the first page:
Now is the time to put in demands for seed grain from government for next year. .
M. A. Maclnnes, Dominion Lands Agent, issued a statement yesterday, asking all farmers In need of seed grain in this district not to delay their application. The flow of grain is passing through Saskatoon very heavily now, he stated, and while the heaviest movement was in full swing was the best time for the purchase of seed grain by the government; it was desirable that all applications be forwarded as early as possible in order that the government might be able to find out how much seed grain it will be necessary for them to secure. This is the advice also handed out by Mr. Lindsay, the government's chief buyer.
Applications hitherto received at the Dominion Lands office have been numerous and each day shows an increase. The stream of applications was materially heavier towards the end of last week than at any previous time during the present season.
The last statement on the subject in this issue of the Star is the following:
* Whoever has an application to make said Mr. Maclnnes, * tell them to make it right away, so that the government will know how much to provide.'
There can be no doubt about that statement. As late as November 21, I find a long statement in the Saskatoon Star, in the same kind of type and at the head of the column on the front page, as follows:
Seed grain supplied by Dominion Government alone; stock is ready. Considerable misapprehension on the part of many people throughout the province resulting in delay.
Some have been applying to the provincial authorities, which is wrong and wastes time. Applications should he made to lands office.
Let me read a paragraph or two of this article:
Many of the farmers of Saskatchewan are losing much valuable time owing to a misapprehension which seems to have arisen. They have been led by some means to believe that the Provincial Government is handling the supply of seed grain to the farmers who need it. This is an entire error. The Saskatchewan Government has nothing to do with it, and all applications or communications with regard to the supply of seed or feed should be addressed to the proper representatives of the Dominion Government. Farmers should direct their inquiries and applications to the agent of the Dominion Lands in their particular land office district.
Mr. M. A. Maclnnes, Saskatoon Dominion Land agent, showed by his correspondence yesterday that the needy farmers, or many of them, are losing time, because of the fact that they have been addressing their inquiries and applications to Premier Scott and other members of the Saskatchewan Government. One farmer in particular wrote asking Premier Scott if the Provincial Government intended to supply seed grain to the northern part of the province, as well as to the southern. As a matter of fact, the Provincial Government is not handling the purchase or distribution of seed grain in any way, and the only thing that the members of that government can do is to turn the letters over to the Dominion Lands offices and notify the farmers that they have done so. This is all a waste of much time which could be saved, and the business of arranging for supplies of seed grain could be greatly facilitated if the farmers would address their inquiries and applications to representatives of the Dominion Government, who are authorized to handle the matter.
And a little further on is this statement:
Thus far the local Dominion Lands office has on file thousands of letters touching the seed
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grain question, and in totalling up the amount applied for up to the present, it was announced that approximately a quarter million bushels of all grains is needed in the Saskatoon land office district. The Dominion Government is not only helping with regard to the land which failed to prodtice a crop last season, but is anxious to see that every farmer gets grain enough to seed every acre he can possibly get under crop for the coming year.
I do not mean to argue that the Government is responsible for every item that appears in one of its party newspapers. But it is responsible for the letter sent out by its commissioner in Winnipeg on which these articles are largely based and by reason of which the people have been led to believe that they were going to get seed grain.
It came as a shock when, on January 11, a letter was circulated throughout the province of Saskatchewan, sent out by the Commissioner of Immigration in Winnipeg, in which he withdraws altogether, in meaning if not in direct terms, the letter of October 14. We were led to believe, in October, November and December, and even up to the middle of January, that we wer-e going to obtain seed grain in abundance, whether we were on patented or unpatented lands, and whether inside or outside the drouth-stricken area. Here is the letter, which, as I have said, w.as a shock to the people:
Arrangements have been made to supply seed grain to all who have lost their crop, whether on unpatented or patented land, in the following area:
Then it describes the drouth-stricken area as described by the Department of the Interior. At -any rate, for three months the position was taken by every person in Saskatchewan, including the Dominion Government officials, that seed grain would be supplied, and I say we had a right to go on that assumption. If the man occupying the position of Commissioner of Immigration in Winnipeg sends out statements which the people of the province or others cannot rely upon, where are we to look for correct information ? The Government cannot urge such an excuse. This letter vihich, as I say; came as a shock to the people, said that the supply of seed grain would be confined to the people in the drouth-stricken area. I have copies of letters here addressed to applicants by the Commissioner of Immigration, in reply, apparently, to requests sent in by men outside the drouth-stricken area. The first is a letter dated January 12, addressed to Mr. J.	W. Whittaker, Salvador. This gentleman
t Mr. W. M. Martin.]
is within the drouth-stricken area, but, unfortunately for him, is on patented land. The letter says:
In answer to your letter to the Department of Agriculture, Regina, I have to state that this department is only making an advance of seed grain to needy homesteaders on unpatented land and who lost their crop through some calamity. All others will require to look to their local municipality or to their Provincial Government for assistance in the matter of seed grain.
That contains a mis-statement of fact, because the letter referred to says that: " the department is only making an advance of seed grain to needy homesteaders on unpatented land, and who lost their crop through some calamity." So far as the drouth-stricken area is concerned, that is not correct, because they were then supplying seed grain in the drouth-stricken area to the holders of both patented and unpatented lands.
I have another letter here of the 19th of January, from the Commissioner of Immigration to Mr. D. B. Martin:
Referring to your application for an advance of seed grain, I have to inform you that this department is only making an advance of seed grain to those in your district who are on unpatented land.
I note from your application that you only hold patented land, and it is with regret, therefore, I have to inform you that your application cannot receive consideration. You will require to look to your local municipality or to your Provincial Government for assistance in the matter of seed grain.
The position in certain parts of that province to-day, owing to the people having been misled, is one of confusion, even of chaos. The records of the department and the records of the Department of Agriculture at Eegina and Edmonton would indicate that there are thousands of applications from farmers outside the drouth-stricken area in both provinces for seed grain, perhaps more in Saskatchewan than in Alberta. These men have all been led to believe that they would get seed grain. They have gone on that assumption, and to-day I say they are entitled to seed grain.
I have here a book which I obtained since coming to Ottawa a few days ago, published by the Dominion Department of Agriculture, called " Patriotism and Production." It is a very admirable publication and contains many statements of value to the people of Canada, whether members of the agricultural population or otherwise. In looking over that book I find, over the signature of the Minister of Agriculture, this statement:
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Should the war continue into the summer ol this year the food production in Europe cannot approach that of normal years. Looking at the situation in even its most favourable light there will be a demand for food that the world will find great difficulty in supplying. Canada is responding promptly to the call of the motherland for men and equipment. Britain needs more than men, she must have food,- food this year and food next year. We are sending of our surplus now. We should prepare for a larger surplus this year and next year. The government is strongly impressed with the desirability of increasing the crop acreage in Canada. The Canadian farmer, earnestly bending all his energies to increase the food supply for the Britisher at home and the British soldiers at the front, is doing his share in this gigantic struggle of the Empire.
I would urge the farmers to do their share in helping to assist the people of Great Britain, who for many years have borne the burden of a heavy tax for the maintenance of a great navy, in preventing them from suffering want or privation.
From the standpoint of whether it is proper agricultural policy to encourage men to put in grain on all land, irrespective of whether it has been summer-fallowed or not, I shall say nothing as I am not a farmer. The fact remains that the Dominion Government and the provincial Governments, during the six months since the commencement of this terrible war, have been urging the farmers throughout Canada, especially western farmers, to increase their production. With what result? The Commissioner of Immigration in Winnipeg, Mr. Bruce Walker, whose letter I have referred to, has said that in western Canada there will be 40 per cent more land ready for crops this spring than in any other year in the history of western Canada. I think his figures are exaggerated. My information is that there will be 10 per cent or 12 per cent more land ready for cultivation when the spring ploughing is done for 1915 than was under crop in any other year in Canada. That is in Saskatchewan. Providence last fall favoured the farmers of western Canada with climati/ci conditions conducive to getting land ready for crops. Any person who had any available land has it ready for the spring of 1915. The work has been done by the farmers of western Canada, they have not credit with the banks to borrow money to buy seed, they are looking to the Government. to supply seed, and, without raising any question of party politics, as I have no desire to do anything of that kind, 1 earnestly entreat the Dominion Government to take this question up and to act on it at once. Seeding time will be on us in six weeks or two months. It may be a question
whether the Government can readily obtain seed in western Canada; but an effort should be made right away. We have been priding ourselves in Canada during the last ten years on being the greatest wheat-producing colony in the Empire. We pride ourselves on our great production of wheat and other grains and say that we are the greatest agricultural colony in the Empire. The farmers of western Canada and of all Canada have done the work; they have acted on the suggestion made by the Dominion and Provincial Agricultural Departments, they have made all the land they possibly could available for crops for the season of 1915. Now give them the seed they are entitled to, the seed you promised them in October and November; and give them an opportunity to show in 1915 that we are worthy of the title we have taken to ourselves during the last number of years, namely that of being the bread basket of the British Empire.
William James Roche: Being a western man myself, I can sympathize with the farmers in the West, more especially in what is known as the drouth-stricken area in the southern portions of the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. I sympathize with the hon. gentleman, who, as a representative of the province of Saskatchewan, in his efforts to secure, in so far as we can possibly concede the legitimate demands of these farmers, the seed grain which is necessary to seed down land which is already prepared for crops. The hon. gentleman has referred to the history of the seed grain question in years gone by. It is true that this Government has been in the habit of looking more especially after the homesteaders, inasmuch as we have regarded them in the light of wards, and we have been in the habit, to a limited extent, where they have had crop failures, of advancing seed grain to them, taking a lien against the homestead, which, of course, was good security, as we had the title to the land in our possession. In 1908 the question assumed much larger proportions, and, as a result of negotiations between the then Minister of the Interior and the provincial governments of the West, very much larger demands were made on the Dominion Government. At that time the provincial governments desired the Dominion to advance money, not only in the case of lands not patented, but also on lands that were patented. The then Minister of the Interior took the position, and quite properly so, that this Government


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: Do I understand
that the position taken by the Dominion Government was that they should have a first lien upon patented lands, with priority over all existing encumbrances and mortgages, for the amount of seed grain supplied to each farmer?


William James Roche: That is the position. That v 'as the position of the Provincial Government in 1908. I have in my possession letters and telegrams received fromj the Provincial Governments. I might as well read one I received from the Premier of Alberta last evening. We sent out an agreement to be signed by the respective governments asking not only for preferential legislation in favor of our liens for our seed grain advancement, but also to include the relief which we had been giving destitute settlers. Mr. Sifton replies:
Agreement received; provision as to payment of expenses satisfactory; perfectly satisfactory as to seed grain. If words ' relief other than seed grain ' confined to feed for horses putting in crop, that also will he satisfactory.
I do not know whether the hon. member

for Regina is in sympathy with our liens being given preferential treatment but this government of his friends in Saskatchewan and Alberta have signified their willingness to pass that legislation. The question resolves itself into this: Are we to enlarge the area; are we to go outside of the drouth-stricken area, or are we going to pass upon every application from every man, every farmer, who has sold his grain and now applies to the Government for aid? That is rather a large proposition. Already our expenditures under this head have amounted to a large amount. Up to the 31st March this year our estimates for seed grain and relief amount to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $5,800,000 which amount will be supplemented next financial year for relief to the extent of $3,000,000 or $4,000,000. The expenditures, if we were to act upon the applications that are being made to us at the present time, would amount to in the neighbourhood of $11,000,000. That is a pretty serious expenditure for this Government to assume especially during a time of financial stringency. We do not think it is a reasonable request to be called upon to satisfy all these applications to share in the distribution of seed grain, but I have instructed Mr. Bruce Walker that we would advance seed grain within the drouth-stricken area on patented lands as well as unpatented lands and that as far as applications outside of that area are concerned we would give them close scrutiny and investigation and where it was found that farmers are in much the same position as those in the drouth stricken district and have no crop we would be perfectly willing to advance seed grain to them. Close scrutiny has boen given to this matter within the last fortnight or more. I think we will be able to meet all the legitimate demands that are being made upon this Government, but we certainly cannot be expected to meet the demand where men who own two, three or four sections of land, have sold their grain and now apply to the Government to advance them money for seed grain.
We have had to supply not only seed grain but also provisions to keep a number of these people alive during the winter months, such as groceries, the necessaries of life and fuel and for relief of this kind we have expended $2,500,000 which is included in the $5,800,000. In addition to that the farmers say: What is the use of giving us money to purchase seed grain, or giving us seed t-Vir. Roche.]
grain unless we have our stock in condition to put that grain in? We recognize the validity of that argument and we shall supply them with feed for stock during the months in which they will be engaged in putting in their crop. I think that we have been dealing very generously and very reasonably with the requests that have been made to this Government. I believe that I have touched upon, all the points that the Iron, member for Regina has brought up, but if there is any other question that any hon. gentleman would desire to ask I will be perfectly willing to answer it. We all recognized that this is a very frightful condition of affairs in western Canada, that they have had during this past year an area some five hundred miles north by south and one hundred and fifty miles east by west within which there have been practically no crops at all. It has been quite a setback to that country and it has been represented to us that unless we can meet the demands of the farmers there, a great many of whom have prepared their land in anticipation of having a large crop this year, the responsibility will rest upon the Dominion Government. We are quite willing to assume the responsibility that we think properly belongs to us but we are keeping this assistance within the drouth-stricken area except as before explained and in doing that I think we are assuming a pretty large obligation. But notwithstanding that, we are willing to go farther and, if after close investigation, applications that have been sent in are found to be just as deserving, if the people have had no crops last year, if they have no money to secure seed grain and have no credit to secure the money, we are quite willing to treat those people with the very same consideration as that with which we are treating those within the restricted area.
Mr. GEO. E. McCRANEY (Saskatoon): This question of the supply of seed grain is not a question of a gift from the Dominion Government to the farmers in the West, nor is it a question of a gift from the Provincial Government. It is a question as to which credit shall be used for the purpose of getting the grain, whether it shall be the credit of the Dominion, or the Provincial Governments. In either case there will be security for the advance made. At this date in the month of February it is rather more a question of nine, of opportunity to purchase, than it is a question as to whether the Provincial Government or the Dorn in-

ion Government shall take security from the farmers upon making the advance. The hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) has spoken as though there was a misunderstanding between the members of the government of Saskatchewan and of this Government as to tne area that would be supplied with seed grain. I think I am safe in saying that if there has been any misunderstanding, there has been no misunderstanding in the province of Saskatchewan in relation to it. There has been no member of the Provincial Government who believes that the assistance of the Dominion Government was to be restricted to the area in the south-western part of the province. There has been no misunderstanding in the minds of the people at large throughout the province on that point and there has been no misunderstanding in the minds of those who are closest to this Government and who belong to the Conservative party. My hon. friend from Regina (Mr. Martin) has quoted articles published in the Saskatoon Star, which is the Conservative organ of the district. The city of Saskatoon and that district are not within this area of drouth so that any observations which that paper made editorially or by way of news could not have reference to the drouth area but were audressed to those who live outside of it. The Saskatoon Star of the 3rd of December, 1914, has an editorial showing the sort of invitation which was sent out by this Conservative organ to the farmers of the Saskatoon district, and you will notice that there is no restriction in it as to whether those who require seed grain live on patented or on unpatented land:
The Government's Prompt Aid.-There will be general appreciation of the fact that the Dominion Government is rising to the occasion in the matter of extending aid to the western farmers who lost their crops in the drouth of last summer.
A further editorial appearing in the Star, as late as the 30th of December last, contained this statement: -
At' the big storage elevator at the edge ol J this city, hundreds of thousands of bushels of seed grain are being accumulated, and no man who flies his application for a supply for spring seeding need he short. Farmers who are without seed grain and who may not have the means of procuring any should at once make their wants known. Application should be made at as early a date as possible and every farmer should sow every available acre of land. Grain prices are sure to be high next fall.
This shows the character of the appeals made by the organ of the Conservative party to the people.
The Conservative candidate in the last election in the riding of Saskatoon was Mr. Donald Maclean, a gentleman who has received the Conservative nomination for the next election whenever it will be held. His ' understanding of the matter is apparently the same as that which has been put forward by the Saskatoon Star. On the 8th of January last Mr. Maclean addressed a meeting of Conservatives in the city of Saskatoon and his explanation of the delay in supplying seed grain was, that it was due to difficulty on the part of the Dominion Government in getting assurances from the provincial Government that the Dominion Government would be given satisfactory security for the advances made. Mr. Maclean's statement would go to show, however, that the distribution of seed grain would be general, and that it would be made both within and without the drouth area and on either patented or unpatented lands. In that speech which was published in the Saskatoon Star, Mr. Maclean said:
Overtures were then made to the provincial governments of this province and Alberta, and they were told that if they would guarantee to legislate so that the Dominion Government could take liens upon patented lands as security for the advances, the Dominion Government would undertake the supplying of all seed grain that the farmers needed.
There is a general statement made by Mr. Maclean without any restriction whatever, and apparently any question as to security to be provided to the Dominion has been removed. According to the statement of the minister, the Dominion Government is to be given a first lien on the land, which I think is quite fair, and it removes the only difficulty which seemed to arise in Mr. Maclean's mind at that time, in the' way of the Government carrying out what he believed to be its policy as to the distribution of seed grain which Mr. Maclean must have been informed of by the friends of the Government. Later on, Mr. Maclean gave an interview in the city of Saskatoon, which was quoted in the Winnipeg Free Fress of February 2nd last. He had evidently found out in the meantime that the Government had changed its policy, and that they wanted to restrict the supply of seed grain to the drouth area. This is the statement of Mr. Maclean, who as I say, is now the accepted candidate of the Conservative party in the Saskatoon electoral district, and who retains the view, which had evidently been impressed upon him, before the change of policy on the

part of the Government. Mr. Maclean said in part:
The problem now is a financial one. It is not a question of which government is willing or which government is unwilling, but which government is able. Obviously, the Dominion Government is in a better position to borrow the large sum needed to supply feed and seed than provincial governments. The municipalities are helpless and the banks are doing nothing. Consequently, the Dominion Government is being bombarded from all sides to come to the rescue. If is a question of finding the money and the grain. It may not be the business of the Dominion Government to supply the seed and feed, but it looks as if no one else can do it.
This matter has also been dealt with by the Saskatoon Board of Trade. On the 6th of January the Saskatoon Board of Trade sent the following telegram to the Department of the Interior:
It is stated by Walker of Winnipeg that only those on unpatented homesteads will he given seed or feed grain. Surely this is incorrect. Wire immediately so that we may contradict.
There is a letter confirming that telegram, which I need not read, and the answer of Mr. Cory, the Deputy Minister of the Interior, is quoted in the letter of the 15th of January written by the Board of Trade to Mr. Cory. Mr. Cory's answer was dated the 12th of January and is as follows:
Tour wires 6th and 7th and letter 6th. Arrangements being made whereby it will be possible to advance seed grain and relief to needy settlers who own their lands.
This despatch from Mr. Cory on the 12th of January, places no restriction as to area, on patented or unpatented lands. On the 21st of January the Saskatoon Board of Trade wired Mr. Cory:
Bruce Walker's letter to farmers, dated 13th, emphatically states seed will.only be given to those on unpatented lands who lost crop and that all others must look to their municipalities or provincial governments. This flatly' contradicts your wire dated the 12th. Such conflictions causing serious general unrest. Please wire us something to publish that will finally remove all uncertainty.
This telegram is quoted in the Phoenix of January 30, 1915, and up to that time no reply had been received. Notwithstanding the attitude of the Saskatoon Star and its statements to the public that there was no use sending a delegation to the provincial Government, on the 4th of February, 1915, the Star came out with an article headed:
' How the provincial Government is dealing with the seed grain question; Mr.Mc-Nab's letter,' and then it says a circular letter signed by Mr. McNab showing how the provincial Government is dodging the

question of assisting in supplying seed grain in the case of needy farmers, is being sent around. It will be noticed that from having been most positive that there was no use applying to the provincial government for seed grain, the Saskatoon Star, which is one of the culprits in the whole matter, turns around and tries to make out that it is the provincial Government that is dodging the issue, and when as a matter of fact if there is any dodging it is being done by the Ottawa Government.
As I said a little. while ago, it is not a question of the Dominion Government or of the provincial Government or of the municipalities giving so much money to the West; it is a question which government will lend the farmers so much money, for which it will have ample security. The important point to-day is not that, but the opportunity to buy seed grain at the present time as compared with several months ago. It will cost to-day at least fifty per cent more to buy seed grain, in consequence of this policy of uncertainty and delity on the part of the Dominion Government in dealing with this question than it would have cost if the seed grain had been purchased some months ago. If the provincial government had understood three months ago that they were to take hold of this question, the necessary grain could have been purchased much more cheaply and supplies of grain would have been available which are not available to-day. Like my hon. friend from Begins (Mr. Martin), I have received telegrams asking me to use my influence in having certainty instead of uncertainty with reference to this question.
This discussion has come up at an opportune moment. I wish that the statement of the minister had been more satisfactory than it is, because his own friends have produced the situation. He has said that some will be dealt with who have patented lands outside of the area, but there is a discrimination which gives no certainty to any one who may desire to rely upon the promise of this Government to make advances of seed grain.


Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I am in a position to complain or not, because if the statement of the Minister of the Interior is earried'out, my district will be satisfied. Unfortunately for me, I represent a district that is almost entirely within the drouth-stricken area of the province of Alberta. The

farmers there have been carried through this winter by the assistance of the Dominion Government. I am prepared to pay tribute to the Dominion Government for the assistance which they have given to the settlers in my district. I am not prepared to go the length of saying that this assistance has been administered in the fairest possible manner to the people of that country; but at the same time I think the government deserve credit for having come to the assistance of the people and for providing means whereby they can exist and remain in the country. If I understand the Minister of the Interior aright, the people of that district are to be provided with seed grain no matter whether thpy are on unpatented land or on rented land or even on land which has been purchased, because in many cases where land has been purchased, the farmer is in just as bad a position as the man who is on homesteaded land whether patented or unpatented.
There seems to be an impression throughout Eastern Canada that that district is worthless; that it is not worth while paying attention to on account of there being such a severe crop failure. I desire to remove that impression, and to say that during the time I have lived in the southern part of Alberta that district has produced splendid and profitable crops; but, owing to conditions of pioneering in a new country, lack of transportation facilities and difficulties due to commencing farming with very little capital, the prosperity of the people has been impaired, and they were not in a position to finance themselves through a complete crop failure. There are parts of that district, which I consider to be within the drouth-stricken area, where farmers to-day are told that they cannot get seed grain. I have a letter in my possession from Diamond City, a place northwest of the city of Lethbridge, in the drouth-stricken area, a point from which no grain was shipped last fall, and the writer informs me that he was refused a supply of seed grain whereas other farmers surrounding him are receiving seed grain. I intend to hand this letter to the Minister of the Interior, because I think this case should be investigated, and this particular farmer is certainly entitled to seed grain. Any farmer in the constituency of Medicine Hat who asks for seed grain, unless he has accumulated some wealth, is entitled to seed grain, because the entire district is within the drouth-stricken area, The inability of many farmers to receive seed grain this year is due to some of the
banks of this country. I want to be candid in saying that some of the banks in this country, since the war commenced and since this depression came upon us, have been of no assistance whatever to farmers who have securities which they could offer to these banks. In that way many men who anticipated that they could secure seed grain through their own resources, have been unable to do so on account of the fact that they could not get any advances whatever from the banks. I have been told this by men who have assured me that they could offer gilt-edged security. If I remember aright, the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Bennett) made a similar statement in that city. It is on account of this fact that the demand is now coming in to the Government for advances of seed grain from people who, I believe, ordinarily would not seek advances, because out of their own resources they cannot secure assistance which they could have secured in other years. It is the duty of the Government under such circumstances to look after those people, no matter whether they are in the drouth-stricken area or not. In my own district I am satisfied that there is at least a ten per cent increase in the land under cultivation for crops next year. That is in a district which did not have any crops last year, where the people were absolutely discouraged and down-hearted; but at the same time they have cultivated more land than they had last year and are prepared to raise a crop this year, and, from the conditions that exist in southern Alberta, I believe we have never had better prospects for a crop than we have at the present time. If we get a crop, with the prevailing prices, all the obligations the farmers have undertaken with the Government of the Dominion of Canada will be met, provided that the machinery companies, the banks and others do not get after the farmers first and take everything.
Now, I desire to add one observation with regard to this area which I represent and within which I reside. I would like to mention the question of feed for stock. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) has been an advocate of mixed farming in western Canada. Others have given those farmers the same advice. The farmers have followed that advice to a very large extent, and in my district there has been a large increase in live stock during recent years. But on account of the drouth there has been no feed whatever for that stock. In October last I communicated with the Commissioner

oO
of Immigration in Winnipeg in regard to the matter, and he intimated that he had forwarded the following wire to the Sup.er-* intendents of Relief:
The Government will provide baled hay for farm stock only where it is necessary and in moderate quantities.
Now, this is entirely satisfactory; but that promise is not being carried out, and as a result farm stock is being lost, especially cows. As farmers are not able to purchase feed or get it from the Government their farm stock is being destroyed. It is most important for the cause of mixed farming'that the Government should carry out the promise made by the Commissioner of Immigration in October last which led the farmers to believe that they should have feed for their stock. I hope the Minister of the Interior will see to it that the necessary instructions are given to furnish feed until the farmers can provide it themselves.
As to the prospects of that country, I am satisfied there is more optimism among the farmers in the drouth-stricken area than can be found in many communities that had good crops last year. Many of these farmers come from states in the American Union where they had to face adverse conditions in the early stages of agricultural development. They believe in the future of that district; they believe the district will come out all right. I am satisfied if the Government come to the assistance of these farmers this year with a supply of seed grain, then, with prospects-which were never better-for a good crop and for high prices, the farmers will establish themselves on a firm footing which will make them satisfied with their new homes in western Canada.


Mr. LEVI THOMSON (Qu'Appelle):: My hon. friend who has last spoken (Mr. Buchanan) comes from a constituency entirely within the drouth-stricken area. I come from a constituency no part of which is within the drouth-stricken area. I have a few words to say with ^regard to the remarks of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche). Like the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney), I am not entirely satisfied with the statement made by the hon. minister, for it seemed to me to consist mostly of qualification. I should like to have some definite statement made. The hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin) in introducing the motion, referred to the fact that some farmers who now wanted seed had sold grain. The Minister of the Interior
[Mr. Buchanan.)
makes quite a point of that. Had my hon. friend from Regina been a farmer, he would probably have explained the matter a little differently. I know men who are wanting seed grain, not in the drouth-stricken area but in other parts of the country, who, though they have grain, have not grain fit for seed. In the locality in which I live, where we were not drouth-stricken though our crop was a little light, none of the people are asking for seed grain, but we will have. difficulty in finding amongst us seed oats that will grow. That will, perhaps, explain the position with regard to the farmers who have sold oats and still want seed. The same is true with regard to wheat. These people who are so badly drouth-stricken may yet have a little wheat, but it is not fit for seed. The case is not quite so bad with wheat as with oats. Rather poor wheat will grow, but it is madness to sow very poor oats. I hope the-Minister of the Interior will bear these points in mind when he is considering this question. In the constituency of Qu'Appelle there are only two localities of which I have information as to the need of seed. In one of these, a very small district, the people have a little grain, but none fit for seed. They may have sold a few bushels, but in doing so they did not sell seed grain. Of course, if they had creditors, those creditors would not be willing to remain unpaid if these people had grain to sell.
I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to another matter. In most of the places where seed grain is required, the demand arises on account of drouth. But in one locality in my own constituency, the trouble arises through a complete destruction by hail. I grant you that in cases of this kind it has not been usual to give seed grain, but I think that the Minister of the Interior, in considering this question, must not entirely ignore the localities in which the destruction is due to hail. It is true that when grain is destroyed by hail, the destruction is generally confined to a narrow strip of territory. In the locality to which I refer, one block was hailed out.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Do not you have provincial hail insurance?


Levi Thomson: Yes, we have provincial hail insurance where the law is adopted by the municipality. In these particular localities there is no hail insurance in force; the men of whom I speak have received nothing at all. 1 grant you, under ordinary circumstances they could procure their own seed

grain, but under present circumstances, I do not think they can. The same thing would apply to municipalities. Under ordinary circumstances, municipalities might supply the seed grain required, but under present circumstances they cannot do so. I am not here to blame the banks; I think the situation they have to face is a serious one. I understand, however, that the banks are refusing to supply money to municipalities for such purposes as this. I am not sure that we can blame the banks for that, they have a heavy load to carry. I do not think the argument of the Minister of the Interior is good when he seeks to show from the action of the Saskatchewan Government that it was not their intention to supply grain to any except those in the drouth-stricken area. It may be true that public works which went on in that province were only carried on in the drouth-stricken area, and it is also true, I presume, that the Government here have not received requests, for ordinary relief of the people except in the drouth-stricken area. That, however, has no application to the question of seed grain, especially as matters stand now in regard to finances. And I think the minister must consider the financial situation. He is bound to consider all these things, and considering these things, I think he must come to the conclusion that, though the demands may be very great, he will have to very freely interpret the promise made here to-day in order to fulfil his duty. There are many localities outside the drouth-stricken area in which, if he fulfils his duty as a minister, he will supply the requirements so far as seed grain is concerned. I shall be pleased to furnish him with information as to localities in my constituency that I think require seed, and I trust he will give them favourable consideration, as I trust he will give favourable consideration to all localities requiring seed, remembering that the financial situation is not such as ordinarily faces us, but that men who, under ordinary conditions could get seed on their own credit cannot get it now.
' Mr. D. B. NEELY (Humboldt): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised to learn that the Government have decided to limit the area in which they propose to give help in the matter of seed grain to the settlers of the West. I remember that during the months of November and October of last year a number of my constituents who are not in what is understood as the drouth-stricken
district of Saskatchewan, wrote to me with respect to the question of getting seed grain for the coming year and I immediately laid their communications before the Commissioner of Immigration at Winnipeg, Mr. J. Bruce Walker. I have not his reply at hand, but I remember very well that in every instance Mr. Walker directed that these settlers should communicate with him directly and should give full particulars as to whether they resided on patented or unpatented land, as to the amount and nature of seed they would require, etc. Copies of Ills reply to these settlers came to me, and therefore my memory is sufficiently clear for me to speak plainly and absolutely on .the point. It appears that the Government changed their mind and are now going to limit the aid proposed to be given in all areas except certain prescribed areas known as the drouth-stricken districts of the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. If the Government carry on this policy it certainly will have the effect of leaving a great many settlers in various parts of the provinces of oaskatchewan and Alberta; outside of what is known #s the drouth-stricken district, without any provision for seed grain this coming spring. While in certain areas of Saskatchewan there was practically a complete crop failure, there were many other limited areas, a number of them in my own constituency, where, while there was not a complete crop failure, the amount and quality of the crop were so poor that the settlers in those instances find themselves quite without any provision for furnishing themselves with seed for the coming spring. If the Government propose to be parsimonious in dealing with the settlers in these scattered and. more or less limited districts, then I say there will be dozens and scores of settlers in various parts of Saskatchewan, outside the drouth-stricken area, who will, in the coming spring, be unable to seed their ground. This is a serious situation and requires heroic treatment by the Government. It certainly is no't a time when this Government or this country can afford, through the laick of seed grain for the farmers of the western prairies, to have a shortage in our grain crop. I am sure that every member in the House will agree witli me in that statement. It is in the interests not only of the farmers on the plains but of the whole of Canada and of the British Empire, that every acre of land in Canada, from east to west, that can be

put under cultivation, that can he made to produce a good crop during the present season, should be under crop. I have received numbers of communications from the heads of municipalities to which this matter has been referred by the provincial Government of my province in which they say that, notwithstanding all the efforts that they may put forth to relieve the needy settlers in those municipalities, they find themselves quite unable to cope with the situation and unless either the Dominion or provincial Government come to the assistance of these settlers, as one telegram which I have received within the last two or three days states, ' there will be many thousands of acres of well-prepared land which will lie idle.' That, Sir, is a situation too serious to contemplate and no consideration of a few isolated cases throughout these provinces where, by a more generous policy on the part of this Government, men would obtain seed grain who were not deserving of that consideration and assistance, should lead this Government or any government, at this crisis in our country's history, to restrict the policy of generous aid to any needy settler who, without. that aid, will not be able to grow a crop during the coming season.
I was not in the House to hear all the explanations of the situation given by the Minister of the Interior in reply to the hon. member for Regina. I did not hear him give any adequate explanation of the reason why the Government have changed their attitude and their policy on this seed grain question since it first came under their consideration last August and September. I have no desire to give any reason or suggest any motive for this change of mind, but I would like the Minister to tell us frankly why the Government's policy was so generous last October and is now so parsimonious. I have before me a copy of the Saskatoon Star, dated Tuesday, October 13. We are used to unofficial reports these days, and this is one of them. Though not official, it is given a prominent place on the front page under the heading ' Dominion Elections, November 19.' That is to say, whether the people of this country were well advised or not, there seems to have been a suspicion in the minds of some editors in the West, and I presume in the East, of the possibility of an occurrence in this country which we generally describe as a general election. I do not suggest that the Government's generous policy of last 
October had anything to do with this widespread suspicion in the minds of the people that a general election was impending, but I fail to see why, if a generous policy was necessary in the interests not only of the western settler but of Canada and the whole Empire in October last, there should be any change of policy between that time and now. The western farmer who is unable to purchase seed grain this year is in a more unfortunate position than a farmer similarly situated in any previous year. It is a well-known fact that the banks of western Canada are not treating the farmers generously this year. In days gone by the farmer who had a good name and needed ready money could go to his bank and secure an advance to purchase seed grain, but in the present crisis he cannot do so. Nor are our municipalities in a position to obtain money by the sale of debentures at the present time; and unless this Government can relieve the situation I see no prospect of many farmers in different districts in Saskatchewan and Alberta getting any crop this year.
The Minister of the Interior stated that it would take some $11,000,000 to meet all the demands that have come in for seed grain. As I understand it, we are to be asked to vote this session $100,000,000 for war purposes, and I am sure that no man on either side of the House will demur at voting such an amount, no matter what the present financial stringency may be. But what better aid could be given in this crisis of our Empire's history than for the Government to see that every farmer who is unable to purchase his own seed grain shall be in a position to grow grain which will help feed the armies of the Allies in Europe. If $11,000,000 is necessary for that purpose, the money could not be better spent; and if this were done the Government would be helping not only the settler who needs aid, but Canada and the whole Empire, and the cause for which our soldiers are fighting so faithfully at the present time. How could the money be better spent than in supplying the multitudes who to-day are unable to purchase bread, with bread produced on the many hundreds of thousands of acres of land that are ready for crop on our western prairies, but will not be put in crop unless this Government furnishes the seed.


Hon. ROBERT ROGERS (Minister of Public Works):: spect to tho instructions issued by the department for dealing with this question.


William Melville Martin: How does the minister explain the-letter that was sent broadcast throughout the West in October, November and December, 1914, two months after the letter which he lias just read, and which letter has nothing to do with anything at all except tho question of relief in the drouth-stricken area?


Robert Rogers: I do not understand my hon. friend's question. That letter is entirely in keeping with the letter of instructions _I have just read. It was dealing entirely with this drouth-stricken area and with no other part.


William Melville Martin: How does the minister
explain the letter of October, 1914, which was sent broadcast throughout the West, in which Mr. Bruce Walker, Commissioner of Immigration, stated in-as plain English as he could that an advance would be made if applied for in any place in Saskatchewan and that in the case of a man who had patented land all the security that would be required would be a promissory note with interest at five per cent?


Robert Rogers: I have not read such a
letter myself, I never heard of it before and I do not think such a letter exists because Mr. Bruce Walker was dealing with the district he was appointed to deal with as laid down when he received the letter of the 19th August, 1914. Another statement was made by the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney) to the effect that the member of the provincial Government had no such understanding as that which appears to exist in the minds of the members of the Dominion Government in respect to this distribution of seed grain and assistance to the settlers in the drouth district. Shortly after this letter of instruction was issued to Mr. Bruce Walker we had a visit from Hon. Walter Scott, Premier of Saskatchewan, and Mr. Bell the provincial treasurer, who came to us to discuss this and various other matters at that particular time. I am going to quote you what Mr. Scott had to say to the press after our interview and it was taken by Mr. Dafoe and sent out and published in the press of western Canada. It is as follows and is dated September 2:
Premier Scott of, Saskatchewan, and Hon. G. Bell, Provincial Treasurer, were in Ottawa to-day conferring with members of the Government regarding the supplying of seed grain to farmers in a portion of the southwestern section

of the province, whose crop this season had been almost a complete failure. They asked that the Government advance these men seed grain in order to tide them over in their failure.
' Every man who has land ready for seed next spring,' said Premier Scott at the conclusion of the conference to-night, ' can he assured that he will have seed provided to put in crop.'
I think that makes very clear the distinct and definite understanding which Mr. Scott and Mr. Bell had. There was no question about it. There was no consideration of any bther district save and except the one which was laid down on the map which was before us for our consideration. We have had mention to-day of a circular letter issued by Mr. McNab, Minister of Agriculture for the province of Saskatchewan, and I must confess that I am surprised at the contents of Mr. McNab's letter because he could very easily have got correct information from his leader, Hon. Walter Scott, if be had taken the trouble to consult him in respect to his understanding of the matter after his visit to Ottawa in this connection. In regard to the districts outside of the stricken area, Mr. McNab says and properly so, that the Government of Saskatchewan, following the example of the Government of Manitoba, had adopted legislation whereby power was vested in the different municipalities to render assistance in individual or general cases as they might see fit with respect to seed grain. What I am surprised at in Mr. McNab's letter is that he did not consult his leader and obtain a better understanding of the true facts and the real position of the question of the assistance that it was proposed to render and that was suggested and discussed with Mr. Scott and Mr. Bell when they were here. Then there would have, boen no misunderstanding; there should be no misunderstanding. We all agree, we all desire to render the greatest possible assistance within our power, and the Minister of the Interior today has undoubtedly made a very generous statement as to how far we are going to carry out this policy with a view of assisting the settlers. When we were visited by Mr. Scott and Mr. Bell, the amount that would have been necessary to supply seed grain was estimated at something like a million and a half or two million dollars. To-day you have the statement of the Minister of the Interior that this is going up now to eight or ten million dollars, or even eleven million dollars, and I think that proves the very contrary of the statement

of my hon. friend (Mr. Neely), and it shows that we undoubtedly are a great deal more generous to-day than we ever thought of being when we discussed the matter in the autumn of last year. However, that is immaterial. I for one, as a western man, with my other western colleagues in the Government, have been pressing that the fullest possible relief in the power of the Government should be given to the western farmers. I think it ought to be admitted in all fairness that the statement of the Minister of the Interior makes it abundantly clear that we are endeavouring to carry out a policy which will be of great advantage to the people of western Canada and to the entire satisfaction of every reasonable-minded man in that portion of the Dominion.
Mr. D. WARNOCK (Macleod).r For the past three months I have been among the farmers of Southern Alberta, meeting them individually in their homes and collectively in their association meetings, and I am in a position to give the House some first-hand information in regard to the seed grain question, especially as it effects Southern Alberta. Since the outbreak of war, the farmers have been deluged with literature and lectures, urging them to go in for increased production. There is not a farmer in Southern Alberta who does not wish to increase his production; there is not a farmer who does not realize that increased agricultural production would in this crisis be a splendid thing for the Empire, and not only for the Empire, but for Canada and the farmers themselves. It is not lectures or advice that the farmers require at this time; it is financial assistance, and the greatest problem that the farmers in the drouth-stricken district have is to find ways and means of procuring seed for this coming spring. And, Sir, notwithstanding the long explanation of the Minister of Public Works, it is very evident that some one has blundered in this matter. The indecision of those entrusted with formulating a policy of seed grain assistance has led to a great deal of disappointment and much valuable time has been wasted. As the member for Saskatoon pointed out, the price of seed grain has materially increased and is getting higher every day, and unless prompt steps are taken by the Government this grain will be at an almost prohibitory price. In October last it was understood that every farmer in the drouth-stricken area would be provided with seed grain.
There were letters written which led farmers to expect that assistance. In the month of January the deputy relief commissioner visited the farmers in my own district and led them to understand that all would be assisted, and many applications for seed grain were handed to him. A little later, the farmers were notified by letter that only those living on unpatented lands would be assisted. Here is a sample of these letters over the signature of J. Bruce Walker, Commissioner, and it is dated Winnipeg, January 25, 1915:
He Seed Grain.
sir.-Replying to your application for an advance of seed grain, I have to inform you that this government is only making advances of seed grain to those in your district who are on unpatented land. I note from your application that you only hold patented land and it is with regret that I have to inform you that your application cannot receive favourable consideration. You will require to look to your local municipality or to your provincial government for assistance in the matter of seed grain.
Your obedient servant,
J. Bruce Walker,
Commissioner.
The Deputy Seed Grain Commissioner had visited the district in which the gentleman who received this letter lived, and I think that district is within the prescribed area, it being in the Macleod district, which would be included in the Lethbridge land district. The Deputy Seed Grain Commissioner had visited that area in January and had received these applications, and had led the farmers of that district to expect assistance. I may say that this was not the first crop failure the farmers of that district had met with. In 1913 they suffered severely from hail, and last year their crop was almost a total failure. I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that so far as I know not one farmer now asking for assistance in that district sold grain; they had no grain to sell.
As to holders of patents not receiving assistance, I would like to explain to the House that in my opinion patentees are in a worse position than homesteaders. It has been customary for homesteaders, as soon as they receive their patents, to at once apply to a loan company and borrow every dollar . procurable. They do this so that they may reimburse the storekeepers and others who had carried them while they were fulfilling the homestead regulations. They also purchased horses and equipment to go on breaking more land, and so these patentees are often really in a worse position than the homesteaders who have not

received their patents. I was pleased to hear the Minister of the Interior say that he had discussed with his colleague the Minister of Finance the question of the banks advancing money, and that the Minister of Finance had taken the matter up with the bank presidents who had communicated with their western managers requesting them to give settlers every assistance in their power. But I want to say that the western banks will change their methods very much indeed if they grant any assistance to a farmer who has already secured a loan from a loan company, and has given that company a first mortgage. It is utterly impossible for any man in that position to get a loan from a western bank at the present time. If the Minister of Finance can make these banks more generous, or compel them to change their methods, he will confer a very great boon on that western country. I think every one will admit that the time has come when the prosperity of every city, town, and village; every railway and every industry, is absolutely dependent upon the prosperity of our rural population. The time has come when the prosperity of our country is dependent upon the permanent development of agriculture. The manufacturers of the East realized that. We had the unique spectacle in November last of representatives of the manufacturers journeying to Winnipeg to meet representatives of the western farmers. The manufacturers wished the co-operation of the western farmers in putting before the Government a scheme to bring under cultivation another million acres of raw land. They proposed that they should ask the Federal Government to advance fifty million dollars for that purpose. A joint committee of representatives of the farmers and of the manufacturers was formed. That committee on visiting Ottawa had a conference with the Prime Minister and his colleagues, and were informed that the matter would be given consideration. I believe they were promised that a commission would be appointed to investigate agricultural conditions, but so far as I know nothing more has been done up to the present time.
The prevailing opinion among all classes of business men in the West, irrespective of their political affiliations, is that until the province of Alberta, for which I am speaking on this occasion, is given control of its natural resources, it is the duty of the Federal Government to assist in developing agriculture in that province. A great deal is heard of the ' back to the land' move-
ment; and if we are going to try to bring the people back to the land, the best method is to improve the conditions under which men and women in the rural districts are living to-day. If we have better agricultural conditions, there will be less talk ol rural depopulation. No finer opportunity was ever presented to any government than the opportunity now presented to the Federal Government to assist in building up and developing agriculture. Soil conditions never were 'better. A very large area is prepared for seeding in the spring. We have had an unusual amount of moisture; the ground is thoroughly saturated; and if the Government of Canada will assist these farmers with seed grain, I am sure the benefit will be prompt and, I hope, lasting. If these farmers are assisted now it will put them on their feet and enable them to go on and succeed. I wish to say earnestly that, if these men on patented lands in particular are not assisted this coming spring, instead of their having an increased area under crop, the area in many districts, including my own, will be decreased. It is the bounden duty of the Federal Government to advance seed grain to the farmers and to give them every encouragement. What if it does take 811,000,000 r We have given 845,000,000 to a railway company; we have been handing out millions of dollars in other ways, and I feel sure that we shall get prompt returns from the farmers if they are provided with seed grain this year. I would ask the Government to take prompt steps to provide that seed grain, even if it costs twice eleven million dollars.


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):: It must be impressed very strongly on the minds of hon. members the tremendous nature of the task that confronts the Government, and the necessity of going forward with that task with the intention of seeing it through to substantial success. It is satisfactory to have the explanations of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) and of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers). In the face of their explanations, it might be said that there was no good ground for the uncertainty that has prevailed in the minds of the people of the West who are particularly interested in this matter. The very fact, however, that the Commissioner of Immigration in January sends out a circular letter which contradicts specifically the terms of his letter of October, gives substantial grounds for the question as to how far the Government is

going to implement its promise of October. It is an officer of the Government who has raised the question in the minds of the people, and it is for the members of the Government in this House on this occasion to set at rest that question.
The Minister of Public Works specifically stated that from the beginning it was the intention to restrict the area of assistance to certain land districts which he mentioned, and such adjoining territory as might properly be included. To show again that there was ground for misunderstanding, the Saskatoon land district is not one of those which the minister mentioned. The southern part of that district adjoins the districts which he mentioned; but it is quite evident from what appeared in the public press, and from the statements of the gentleman who was chosen to represent the Government, that in that district it was the general understanding of the people that their requirements would be met as well as those in the districts to the south.
Now, it is not because we desire to question the good faith of the Government that this matter has been brought forward today; it is for the purpose of being assured that the matter will be dealt with fully and completely as circumstances will permit. My hon. friend from Macleod (Mr. War-nock) and other hon. gentlemen have stated, in terms that I think cannot be improved upon, how important the question is, and * the good results that will flow from dealing with it in a satisfactory manner. My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior used expressions which did not restrict the aid to be given to a certain specified area; when he said that the Government would consider the granting of aid to the holders of patented lands outside of the drouth-stricken area. Then the question came up at once-and this is the point which it is very desirable should be settled beyond any question and at the earliest possible moment-how far does the Government intend to go in that connection? It has been said that the banks will come to the rescue; that the municipalities have the responsibility, or that the Provincial Government must take care of these matters under certain conditions. If it is to be the banks,
' if it is to be the municipalities,~if it is to be the provincial governments, the limit to which this Government will go, or the limit to which these different authorities will have to go in order to relieve the situation, should be specifically laid down. There should not be any question of doubt 51
about it. If arrangements are made with Provincial Governments, with the banks, with the municipalities, or with any other authority, and if there is to be a division of authority and responsibility, that division should be made without delay. If there is to be no such division of authority, if th& Dominion Government is not to expect the banks, the municipalities, or the Provincial Governments to take part in this matter, then it is for the Dominion Government to say so and to live up to its promises.
We do not wish to raise this question in any spirit of criticism or with any desire to hamper the Government, but to impress upon Parliament how important the question is from a national standpoint that the details of the matter should be worked out so that justice shall be done to all parties concerned, and that no part of the country and no section of the people shall fail of the assistance required because of lack of understanding between the different authorities concerned or in regard to the exercise of authority by this Government. And, I repeat, if a misunderstanding has existed, or exists up to the present time, it is because of the Government itself and not because of its critics.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK (Red Deer):: I do not intervene to find the slightest fault with the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche). I should like to offer to him and to the Government my sympathy; and I would extend that sympathy to the people of the West. I offer to the Government my sympathy in their having to deal with a problem of such magnitude at a time when money is so scarce and the nation is taken up, as we all know, with an affair of overpowering size and importance outside our own boundaries. I have risen for the purpose of making one or two observations which I think may convey practical suggestions to the minister which he might find useful to consider and possibly to act upon. I have the good fortune to represent a constituency which is inhabited by a very large number of highly intelligent settlers. They have shown, their intelligence by coming to a part of the country where, in the thirteen years that I have known it, no large portion of the community has suffered by either hail or drought. I could mention other ways in which they have shown their intelligence, but refrain for the present. I have had, nevertheless, a couple of letters from limited areas in my constituency. One of these refers to a fact to which my hon. friend from Qu'Appelle (Mr. Thomson) al-

luded-that some people are in difficulties at the moment through having been" hailed out and not being insured. The other letter pointed out what is very well known to us all who live in the West, that it was a very dry year all 'over the western provinces. The drouth affected one limited portion, at any, rate, of even the Red Deer constituency, favourable though its location. Now, in the presence of these facts which I do not think can be gainsaid, I hope the Government has not followed too arbitrarily the line in defining what they understand to be the drouth-stricken area. If I followed the hon. Minister of the Interior correctly, he seemed to confine his promises to an area exclusively within the southern limits of Alberta, for example. That is what I understand him to mean by drouth-stricken area. I would therefore ask the minister in all sincerity to remember that there are isolated cases outside Southern Alberta of people who have been affected by the drouth, and there would appear to be no good reason why they should be arbitrarily excluded from the Minister's careful and, I trust, favourable consideration. I offer that suggestion sincerely and somewhat hopefully. As a matter of fact, while we may regard this question from the point of view of the settler with whom we all sympathize, yet in this House we ought to regard it very largely from the point of view of the results which are likely to be obtained. And I should like to point out to the minister that he would have a better guarantee of results for grain advanced in an area so generally successful in its crop as that which I have the honour to represent than he would in the southern district, where, I am afraid, drouth is rather frequent. I was reassured by the statement of my hon. friend from Medicine Hat (Mr. Buchanan) on that subject, but I have heard others say that the hot winds there are so prevalent, that a crop in four years is all that they can look for. I would suggest to the Minister that it might be a bad investment for a nation to put seed grain into that region. At any rate, I would suggest that it might be possible to make inquiries of the individual settlers who are being relieved to find how often they have been stricken by drouth. I sometimes have had a doubt whether the policy of what I might call pushing settlement, has not been carried too far in southern Alberta. I have often wondered whether it would not have been better if large areas 
in that region bad been left to be ranged by cattle. However that may be, I think it would be well worth the Minister's consideration whether he could not, through his numerous agents, institute inquiries in each case of relief, if possible, as to how far be >is likely to get results from advancing seed grain in specific cases and how often the people he is helping to put seed into the ground have been stricken with drouth in the years immediately past. To keep a man putting seed into an area that will only grow grain once in four years is of very questionable benefit either to the man or to the country.
That is one suggestion I should like to make. Then, I should like to be allowed to press the idea with which I opened-that the Minister might extend his idea of the drouth-stricken area, somewhat anyhow. I sympathize with him in the difficulties of the situation; they are- very great. The price of grain is a tremendous aggravation of the case and increases very much the difficulties of the Administration. Nevertheless, with a view to the results, I would press upon the Minister that he should not close his mind absolutely to isolated cases outside of what he appears to have regarded as the drouth-stricken area. If he opens his mind to this extent and wants to know where he can help some people outside of southern Alberta with the utmost certainty of good results, I shall be glad to tell him of one or two limited localities in the riding I have the honour to represent.


Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Solicitor General):: One would not be a loyal representative of any constituency of western Canada who did not feel very deeply concerned as to the situation of that country in regard to seed grain. Nor, indeed, could one endowed at all with human sympathy, no matter from what part he came, be doing his duty if he did not exercise it to the full in the extension of relief.
The hon. member who has just taken his seat has made remarks which we on this side of the House cannot but appreciate. We feel perhaps more keenly and directly than they the responsibility of the situation, particularly the financial difficulty involved. I rise not to add anything to what the Minister responsible has said or to the Government policy, but.only because the hon. member who has just sat down and hon. members who preceded him did not seem to fully comprehend the effect of the Minister's

statement. But I fear that, in the matters in which they were astray, if the Minister was not explicit'it is impossible for me to be more so. The occasion is fraught with unusual difficulty from several causes. In the first place the year before last in our country was not an auspicious year. The crops on the whole were bountiful, but only ordinarily so, in the districts most affected by the drouth of 1914; but the prices received were not proportionate to the cost involved. The prices were not equal to those received in previous years and this year. Following that a season of excessive drouth prevailed, extending from our own older province of Manitoba westerly to the Rockies, and most pronounced in the southern portions of Alberta and Saskatchewan. That was, of course, the initial, the foundation cause of the trouble. But upon that there was heaped this situation that at a time of financial depression caused not only by the war but by other conditions and intense indeed before the war commenced, the banks assumed an attitude that added indeed to the difficulties of the settlers; the banks assumed such an attitude, whether justifiably or not I cannot inquire, which has resulted in their not being of the assistance to the farmers that they have been in previous years and not being, in the opinion of a very great many, of the assistance that they ought to have been last year. The duties or responsibilities of the Government were great on account of both these conditions. However, in the province of Manitoba, from which I come, even this unusual situation was not such as to involve extraordinary responsibility upon this Government. It is a matter of congratulation to us from that province-and in this I am sure that I shall be joined by the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Cruise) and the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Molloy)-that even although we had suffered to a considerable extent from last year's drouth and although, as a result of that, there are large areas in that province to which assistance must undoubtedly be extended, an appeal to the Dominion Government is not yet essential in regard to patented lands. As to the two other provinces the situation is different. A similar situation arose there once before. As the minister has pointed out a drouth, although not to the same extent, occurred in 1908. That was met by the Government of the day by advances to the provinces, the provinces supplying the
grain to the settlers and becoming responsible to this Government. But so great and so fraught with difficulty was the situation this year that the remedy of 1908 could not be applied and it became necessary for this Government to extend the line further and to decide to what limit it could go, because it was determined to go to the utmost limit in the power of the Government in meeting the demands of the western settler. The Minister of the Interior has defined the line between the responsibilities of the Federal Government and the responsibilities of provincial governments and municipalities in those two provinces and I believe that we, representing the western provinces, should be grateful to the representatives on both sides of the House from all the provinces of Canada because no criticism has been made of the very liberal extension of the responsibilities assumed by this Government as compared with the responsibilities assumed by the Dominion Government in years gone by. We from the West believe, and I am sure that in this I shall be joined by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark), that the Government of the day has gone far and assumed a very great responsibility in carrying the line of demarcation as far as it has in regard to relief to the western settlers. Now how far has the line been carried? It is pointed out that when the situation first arose the Government of the day determined that there were certain areas that were so deeply involved and were so etriken that to those areas at least relief must be extended not only in the way of seed grain but in the way of supplies of the necessaries of life. Those areas were taken care of first, the unpatented lands and the patented lands, the unpatented, of course, being those for which this Government would be more directly responsible. But later on, as evidenced by a letter read by the hon. member for Regina, the Commissioner of Immigration at Winnipeg declared that the Government had decided to go further, to go beyond that stricken area. In this connection I have some fault to find with the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin), and I include in my complaint the hon. member for Humboldt (Mr. Neely). I think I have discovered in the remarks of both these gentlemen one cause and a very great cause, for the added difficulties the Government is in, difficulties for which they are not responsible, but for which I am not so sure the hon. member for Regina is not responsible. The letter of the

Commissioner of Immigration of October 21, that has been so much discussed, is not worded, perhaps, as a lawyer would word it; but at all events its meaning is reasonably clear and its meaning in regard to the points referred to by the hon. member for Regina is perfectly clear. It will be remembered that the hon. member for Regina said that after reading that letter, after having had it shown to him by various farmers in his constituency, he assured them that in it no distinction was drawn and that, without respect to person, or area, the Government would give seed grain to any man who asked it. He assured them that they would he quite justified in selling their wheat because the Government of Canada had undertaken to be responsible for seed grain if they did not have it. Was he justified in giving that assurance to his constituents? What is there in the letter to justify it? Was he acting fairly with the Government of Canada or with his constituents? Does the letter say that the Government of this country would be responsible for seed grain to any man who was without it, whether on patented or unpatented lands? It says nothing of the kind. The letter is written after the Government has been catering to. the necessities of those who have lost their crop by drouth within certain specified areas. Under those circumstances the letter says:
In answer to your letter of recent date, asking for an advance of seed grain, I have to inform you that this department is making arrangements to supply bona fide settlers, who have lost their crop this year and are unable to obtain seed, with good clean seed next spring, delivery to start about the middle of February.
Then he goes on to say in a subsequent paragraph that the applicant should state in his letter whether his land is unpatented or patented, and if patented the encumbrances upon it. The hon. member for Regina went on to say that the Government was in an exceedingly generous mood at that time, and that they offered to advance this man seed grain no matter where he came from and what his condition, so long as he asked for it, and so long as he gave his note at 5 per cent. But did the Government offer there to give it to any mam who had not seed- grain?
5 p.tn. He had first to be a bona fide settler ; secondly, he had to be in the position that he had lost his crop in 1914, that he had not sold his crop; thirdly, he had to be, in the position that he could not obtain seed grain elsewhere.
IMr. Meighen.]


William Melville Martin: I did not say that I had ever advised any man to sell his grain. I said that by reason of this letter men had sold their grain, and that a reasonable interpretation of the letter was that the Government was supplying seed grain to any man in the prorvinces who had lost his crop, whether on patented or unpatented land and whether within the stricken area or not.


Arthur Meighen: I am only too glad to receive the correction of the hon. member, because I recognize that his statement needed correction, and very badly needed it. The hon. member for Regina did say that many had come to him and said that they had sold their grain, and that he justified them in selling their grain and pointed to the Government's letter as making good to them the grain they had so sold. I say to the hon. member that he had no mandate and no warrant in that letter to make such a statement. The hon. member for Regina goes further. He says that the generosity of the Government was evidenced by the fact that they were willing to supply seed grain and to take nothing but an oath. Now, I draw his attention to the fact that Mr. Bruce Walker in the latter part of his letter states that the applicants must in their application state whether their land, if patented, is encumbered-it could not be encumbered if unpatented-and if encumbered, what encumbrances are against it. I ask the hon. member what would be the use of that information if we were not going to take a lien on the land?


William Melville Martin: How does the hon. gentleman explain the statement, that as far as patented lands are concerned the only security asked for in the application is the promissory note at 5 per cent payable on a certain date?


Arthur Meighen: I answer, that is not in the letter. It does not say that that will be the only security asked for. It says, that will be asked for, and then says, tell us what encumbrances are against your land. I do not need to observe to the House that the hon. member for Regina has not yet answered my question as to what value to the commissioner the information would be as to whether the land was encumbered or not if they did not intend to have anything to do with the land. I earnestly hope that the hon. member for Regina was not joined by too many of his colleagues on that side of the House in

interpreting the contents of that letter to their constituents. It is a fact that, as a result of something, the applications for seed grain have come in very late and very precipitously. It is a fact that taking what care the Government could and making all investigations within its power, and, as the result of that care and those investigations, having procured such a supply of seed grain at a very moderate price as they felt	would be sufficient,
Notwithstanding that, later on and right up to the end of January, 1915, large numbers of applications poured in. I believe the Minister of the Interior said some 9,000. It may be there is some explanation of that. It may be that because of an industrious circulation of a wrong interpretation of the letter of October 21st, men in the province who had never hoped to look to the Government for assistance were induced to look for assistance at that late date, and that in consequence all these applications came in.
However, the main question now is what is the Government doing, where does the Government's responsibility end and where does the responsibility of others begin ? The hon. minister has stated-and it did not seem to be caught at all by the hon. member for Humboldt (Mr. Neely)-that the Government was in no way restricting its responsibility geographically within those provinces. That is to say that the relief of the Government, in the way of seed grain and for feed for horses for putting in the seed, extended to places beyond the stricken area. The minister also stated the conditions under which that relief would be extended; that in cases beyond the stricken area where the farmer had suffered the previous year as the farmer in the drouth-stricken area had suffered, and where, as a result, he could not procure seed grain elsewhere, the Government was prepared in those cases to mete out to him the same relief as to the farmer of the stricken area. That is, wherever the farmer could place himself in the same position as to causes and conditions as., the farmer in the stricken area, then he placed himself in the same position as to remedy. I do not know that a fairer policy could be agreed upon. I do not think the hon. member for Red Deer or the hon. member for Edmonton will say that the line could possibly be drawn, having regard to the responsibility of precedent, more generously than it has been done. There is not a definition of locality; but the "causes must be the same, the conditions must be the same as to the possiblity of getting relief elsewhere, and, being the same, the farmer is in the same position as to remedy I do not wish to be understood as arguing that beyond the pale of the relief so extended there will not be many deserving cases, many eases such as those described by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle, where the farmer though he may have had some remnant of a crop in 1914, had not grain of such a quality that he would dare to use it as seed in 1915. There may be" some cases such as that which are deserving cases; possibly just as deserving as those to which relief must be granted, 'but the line must be drawn somewhere and there are responsibilities upon other institutions, upon other governments, upon municipalities and units as well as upon this Government. And I believe all will agree that under the very unusual and overpowering circumstances of the time, when the calls upon the treasury of Canada are unprecedented, the Government has met the situation in a generous spirit, and in a spirit that every reasonable man should accept.


Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia):: It was not my intention to say anything on this debate, because fortunately in my part of the province of Saskatchewan we had a fair crop. Up to the present I have not received a single letter from a constituent on the subject of seed grain. But it seems to me at this stage of the debate that there is some uncertainty about the position of the Government. The Solicitor General has explained it pretty well. We all know that he has a wonderful faculty of drawing nice distinctions in law or in anything else, but will the ordinary farmer who has not seed for his next crop be able to follow the nice distinctions in this letter that my hon. friend draws? Mr. Walker stated absolutely that those who were on patented lands would	be	asked for a note.
I do not think it is worth arguing about whether, in addition to that, they give security on their land or not. If the Government want additional security, well and good; -I think they are quite entitled to it. Here is the position: Farmers want seed grain; they were all led to believe by this letter of Mr. Walker's that they would get seed grain. I have a copy of Mr. Walker's letter, and there is absolutely nothing said in it about a restricted area. There is nothing said to the effect that it

will be confined to farmers who are living on homesteads the patents for which have not been issued. According to this letter any farmer on earth would be justified in saying that if he had lost his crop last year he could get seed grain from the Government. The Solicitor General says that the municipalities and the provincial governments must assume responsibility in the matter of seed grain. It is no time now to come forward and say that the municipalities and thfe provincial governments must assume responsibility for seed grain.
After the members of the provincial Government in Saskatchewan came down here last fall and had an interview with the members of this Government, they went home with the understanding, which was perfectly satisfactory to them, that they would attend to a certain amount of relief in the stricken area in the province of Saskatchewan, and they have expended over a million and a quarter of dollars in carrying out that work. They understood absolutely that the Dominion Government would attend to all -matters of seed grain, and that they were not going to be called upon in that connection. Members of this Government asked the members of the provincial Government if they would pass certain legislation which would give this Government the right to a first security for the amount of any seed grain that they advanced to the settlers. The Saskatchewan Government said they would be pleased to pass the necessary legislation; they are quite willing to do that to-day and will do it.
To come forward now and say that the provinces and municipalities must assume responsibility in connection with this seed grain is altogether unfair. Had the Governments of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta known last August, September or October that they were going to be called upon to provide seed grain, or if the municipalities had known that they wouM be required to assume this responsibility, it would have been an easy matter then to have secured the seed grain. Today, I doubt if it is an easy matter. On the other hand, it would be a most difficult matter for these authorities to secure the necessary seed grain. We ought to have a straight and definite statement from this Government that in all deserving cases it will undertake to supply seed grain. It is not a gift; it is only a loan of the money.
1 know it is a large sum, and I know that the Government have a falling revenue and tremendous expenses to meet otherwise, but

if they want to follow up the argument that they have been putting forward for the last six months in favour of increasing production, let me ask how they are going to increase production if they allow two or three million acres to go without seed. Seed must be procured in order that we may get the benefit of next year's crop. Where is the seed to come from? Taking into consideration this letter, copies of which Mr. Bruce Walker sent out by the thousand all over the country in October last, it is up to the Government to supply every deserving case, and I would like to have a statement from the Minister of the Interior as to whether they will do so. I understand the Solicitor General, acquiesced in by the Minister of the Interior, to say that outside of the restricted area, throughout Saskatchewan, Alberta or Manitoba, if there is any farmer in the position of a farmer in the stricken area, his case will be examined into, and if it is found that he lost his crop last year he will get seed grain. That is satisfactory as far as it goes But there will be many cases, such as were mentioned by my hon. friend from Qu'Appelle (Mr. Thomson), where they have had a certain amount of crop but where the grain is Absolutely unfit for seed. If it was absolutely unfit for seed the revenue that the farmer got from the crop will not enable him to buy good seed especially now when, I do not suppose, wheat could be delivered to the farmer under |2 a bushel, or perhaps $1.75, or $1.80.
I think the Minister of the Interior should give us a definite statement that they will not throw this responsibility on the municipalities or on the provincial governments. They are not in a position at the present time to secure millions of dollars to get the necessary seed grain to give to the farmers. They have no organization for that purpose. The Minister of the Interior and the Minister of Agriculture have an organization already handling this very subject. Why then divide the responsibility? The responsibility cannot be divided and have any success in handling this question. What is done has to be done by this Government. They have the organization, they are in shape to do it and if they have not the money they can get it much more easily than the provincial governments or the municipalities can.
I say again that this letter of Mr. Walker led every farmer in the country to believe that if he had not seed grain to sow the

land that he had ready <he could get it from the Government. It may be that, technically speaking, as was pointed out by the Solicitor General, there are some loopholes to enable you to place another interpretation upon this letter. But this Government have led the farmers to believe that they were going to give them seed grain if they did not have it. Take security for it if y,ou like, take a lien on the land and get the necessary guarantee from the provincial governmqjit to give your lien priority over all other encumbrances on the land-take or get that if you want to, but give the farmer the seed. If you do not give it to him he is not going to be able to get any seed grain. You have led him to believe that he would get it and if he does not get it the responsibility is on this Government and there will be the loss of many millions of dollars if we have not a good crop next year. It will be a severe loss because the price next fall, whether the war stops to-morrow or goes on a year or two, will be high. It is the duty of this Government to give seed grain to every farmer who has not got it otherwise, charge him the price of it and take the necessary security. This Government will not lose a dollar. They get their money back with five per cent interest. We heard the Minister of the Interior say what the banks were going to do. I quite agree with my hon. friend from Medicine Hat (Mr. Buchanan) that if they do what the Minister said they might do there will be a tremendous change in their policy. I doubt if they will do very much in advancing money to farmers. They have never done it in the past, and I think it would be a poor reed for the farmer who has no seed grain to rely upon. I do not think they will all get it if that is the case. This is a serious matter. The Government has spent millions of dollars on this question as it is and all we ask is that they may go a little farther and carry out exactly what everybody will naturally take to be the meaning of this letter that Mr. Bruce Walker sent out broadcast over the whole country- Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta-in which no distinction was made with reference to the restricted area. Take the security if you wish, but do not have divided responsibility, for it will not work, and it is too late if it did work. If you are going to make a success of 'his, the Federal Government will have to deal with the whole question of seed grain and if this Government does not take action in the light of this letter, they will be held
responsible by the people who are not able to get seed.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT (Calgary):: I rise
in the first place to express my appreciation of the attitude on this question taken by the members who come from the older provinces. Prima facie there is no duty on the Federal Government to supply seed grain for patented land in any province of Canada. That is clear. In the province of Ontario this Government is not asked to supply seed grain, nor yet is it asked to do so in the province of Quebec. For once I am entirely in accord with my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) when he says that this Government has approached this problem as one of great magnitude, recognizing that it is a question that must be dealt with in the very best possible way, having regard to the conditions that exist and to the precedents by which it is more or less bound.
Unfortunately, owing to causes about which it would not now be proper to inquire, the western provinces do not own their natural resources, and have, in my judgment, parted with them for a very insufficient compensation. Having regard to these ' conditions, the Federal Government having assumed responsibility for the administration of the public domain in these provinces, feels that in accordance with the precedent adopted in days gone by it should meet the existing situation and deal with it. That being so, the question as to what should be done in this particular case is a matter for consideration, and I am bound to say that I am very much reassured by the statement of the Minister of the Interior this afternoon. I did at one time feel owing to the documents to which attention has been directed this afternoon, that possibly some one had been misled or that there had been a change of policy on the part of the Administration. Such I now know is not the case. After all, it is no longer a theory but a condition that confronts us, and the question is as to how the Government is going to discharge the duty it has taken upon itself, in the light of the circular sent out to the settlers and which indicated that in so far as seed grain was concerned, the Administration proposed to supply seed grain solely within the stricken area, whether the settlers lived on patented or unpatented land. At first it was only supposed to be on unpatented land, their duty being only to homesteaders. But, in order

that their might not be divided authority within that area, the Government very properly assumed the duty of dealing with those who live on patented and unpatented land. I think they are dealing with the situation fairly, especially since the Minister of the Interior has announced that he was prepared to extend the same treatment to those who are similarly situated beyond that stricken area. I think he went as far as he possibly could, and I would like to adopt the language ol the member for Red Deer to this extent, that I hope the minister will not be too censorious or critical, but that where he finds areas that have been devastated by drouth or hail, he will extend to them the same treatment as he has to that area which is represented in this House by the hon. member for Lethbridge.
The condition is really a very serious one. Sometimes I think the members of this House who represent eastern constituencies little realize the conditions brought about in some parts of western Canada. In some districts the land has been swept as clean as a floor, and where once there was vegetation there is now nothing but the driest dust. It is even true that the children of the farmers in some instances have been suffering from the pangs of hunger, almost starvation, and under these circumstances the Government relief is absolutely needed to encourage the settlers within that area and to enable them to have their land bear crops next year. As the hon. gentleman from Macleod has said, we have had more snow and moisture this winter than we have had for many years, and I have every reason to believe that next year we will reap abundant harvests within that very area where in the past succeeding crop failures have occurred. Even if the Government should expend several millions more than was anticipated at first, it seems to me that this duty devolves upon them fairly. I think we in the West have every reason to feel grateful for the spirit of toleration with which hon. gentlemen who come from other provinces have dealt with this question in this time of great stress in the West.
Motion negatived.
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House adjourned at 5.35 p.m.
Thursday, February 11, 1915.