1915-03-23

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 80, respecting the Pollution of Navigable Waters.-Mr. Bradbury.
Bill No. 81, respecting the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Green.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I would like to communicate to the House the substance of a letter which I received this morning from Colonel Farquhar, of whose death in action we heard last evening. It is with deep and unfeigned sorrow that we have heard the news of his untimely death. He was one of the finest characters I ever knew; and of all the able men who have filled the position of Military Secretary to the Governors General of Canada, I do not know of any one who performed the duties of that responsible position more efficiently, or who more thoroughly endeared himself to the Canadian people, than did Colonel Farquhar. I know that all the hon. members of the House will join with me in an expression of our deep sorrow for the loss which the Empire has sustained in his death, and in a message of sympathy to those whom he has left behind. A few days ago I had a letter from him in the trenches, in which he spoke with very great pride of the bearing of his regiment in the field, and of the fine work which they had done. At that time he said to me that the work had already received the strong commendation of the General Commanding the Division. This morning I received a further letter from him, and, if the House will permit me, I will read a few short extracts from 81 i
this letter and the telegrams which accompany it. The letter is dated March 4:
You may like to have a copy of these telegrams. The episode which called them forth was the rushing of a German trench and its subsequent destruction. The enemy had been very active in front of us, and a night reconnaissance made it clear to me that we had an opening. For various reasons, it was inadvisable to occupy the trench, so J got leave to rush it and pull down the parapet. Crabbe and Papineau led the party, the latter being our bomb thrower. They both showed very great
dash and ran the Teutons off their legs	
Nothing could have been more spirited than the way the men went in.
The messages wrhich Colonel Farquhar enclosed were as follows:
From the Irish Fusiliers:	"Well done
P.P.C.Li.1.''
From the Second Army through the Brigade Major of the Fifth Corps: The following message from the Fifth Corps: The corps commander has great pleasure in transmitting to you following message from Second Army: "The army commander wishes you to express to the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry his appreciation of the grand piece of work performed by them this morning.''
From General Plumer:	" Please give my
heartiest congratulations to the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry on their gallant and useful exploit."
From the officer commanding the 3rd King's Royal Rifles: "Best congratulations on splendid achievement last night. Please tell us how you do it."
From 1st Canadian Division:	" Heartiest
congratulations on success last night."
From Sir John French, Commander in Chief: " To Colonel Farquhar, commanding Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry: I heartily congratulate you and your gallant men on your successful operation this morning. Please express to Lieutenant Crabbe and the party he led my great appreciation of their services."
From General Snow:	" Well done P.P.C.
Congratulations on your splendid work."
From the Twenty-eighth Division through the Brigade Major: "Twenty-eighth Division wire hearty congratulations."


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: The intelligence which has just been conveyed to the House by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister arouses our sorrow and also our pride and gratification that we have this testimony to the good work done by our boys at the front. May I be permitted to say, I was touched to hear the name of Papineau mentioned as among those who have done so well. And the House will be gratified to know that the gentleman who is the bearer of this name is a great-grandson, of one who did good work in his day, and in his own way, for freedom in Canada. The words of praise of Gol. Farquhar, I am sure, are a deserved tribute. It has been my personal privilege to know a good many

of those who have held the office that he held, and it is due to him to say that in his tact, kindness and good judgment, as well as in his constant desire to do his duty, he was the equal of any of his colleagues.



ROYAL NORTHWEST MOUNTED POLICE

[Stage Direction]
-MEMBERS IN ACTIVE SERVICE.
Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: I desire to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to a matter of some importance. I refer to the failure to pay the members of the Northwest Mounted Police who have volunteered for active service. They are not being treated on the same basis as other officials of the Government. Tt has been represented to me, and I am in sympathy with the representation, that they should receive their full pay while on service with the forces at the front. I bring the matter to the attention of the Prime Minister with a view to ascertaining the possibility of something being done in the direction I have indicated.


Robert Laird Borden: I will look into the matter to which the hon. gentleman refers. At present I am not aware of any member of the Mounted Police being engaged in active service. Several members of the force made application to get their discharge in order that they might serve at the front. That is the only aspect of the matter that has been brought to my attention.


William Ashbury Buchanan: There are members of the Mounted Police now in the fighting line in France who are British army reservists, and who have gone to the front in that capacity. It is felt that they ought to be treated the same as other officials of the Canadian Government.


Robert Laird Borden: The matter has not been brought to my attention so far as I recollect. I will make inquiry with regard to it.



THE WAR-THE CANADIAN FORCES.

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou):: In
view of the sad intelligence which comes daily to Canada of the loss in action of our boys at the front, I would ask the Minister of Militia if he could tell us whether the whole of the first contingent have gone across the Channel. I do not want information that it would be improper to give to the House and the country. I would also ask him, in view of the statements I have
seen in the press in regard to the appointment of Colonel Seeley to command the Canadian troops in France, whether the department here were consulted with regard to his appointment, and what is his command or status.


Major General HUGHES (Minister of Militia):: Regarding the^ first contingent, the first division has gone to the front and the Princess Patricias. At least three of the regiments, the Strathcona Horse, the Canadian Mounted Rifles, the Canadian Royal Horse Artillery remain as details under Colonel Seeley. He has in his brigade also some British troops, the King Edward Horse, a British corps, not Canadians, and it is unnecessary that Canada should have been consulted about the appointment of a brigadier to command the division. I was absent in the West at the time the matter occurred and am not familiar with the details.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Where is his command?
Major 'General HUGHES': When we last heard of it, in England.



INSURANCE RATES IN NOVA SCOTIA.

Mr. W. F. CARROLL (South Cape Breton):: I desire to ask the Minister of
Finance if he has had drawn to his attention the enormous , increase in fire insurance rates in eastern Nova Scotia. This increase amounts to 30 per cent of which notice has been given within the last few days. I will give the minister more formal notice of the facts in connection therewith.


Hon. W. T. WHITE (Minister of Finance):: The matter has not been drawn to my attention, but I will make inquiries of the Insurance Department and see if any representations have been made on the subject.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Bill No. 4, respecting certain patents of the Lohimann Company-sMr. Fripp-in Committee.
On section 1-order of commissioner:
Mr. J. D. REID:: As the hon. member
in whose name this Bill appears is not present, I may explain that this is an

application for the renewal of two patents, one of which was taken out in 1911 and the other in 1912. In each case the fees were paid for six years. Section 38 of the Patent Act provides that the patentee must manufacture within two years. Upon application, however, within six months after the granting of the patent, an order may be issued providing that the patent shall come under the provisions of section 44, which is commonly known as the licensing provision. Under this provision the owner of the patent may be required to grant a license to another person or persons to manufacture and sell the patented invention, and if this is not done within a certain period of time the patent may be cancelled. In this case the owner of the patent, Mr. Lohmann, died before the expiration of the time within which application would have to he made to have the patent come under the provisions of section 44; therefore that privilege was lost. The object of this Bill, therefore, is to place those who are now in possession of the patent in the same position as they would have been had the application for the licensing privilege been made within the specified time. The patent in question is a patent for the prevention of the corroding or rusting of metal. It is a process patent, and I understand that it is one in respect of which the Department of Agriculture would be willing to grant a license. It is not in every case that the owners of patents are allowed to come under the licensing provision, but when this application came before the Private Bills Committee it was thought that the privilege should be extended in this case. I myself felt, as a member of the committee, that, considering the whole circumstances, the application for renewal should be granted.
Mr. MACDONALD; Is the Commissioner of Patents satisfied?
Mr. REID; Yes; before the Bill was considered by the Private Bills Committee I took the matter up with the deputy minister and Commissioner of Patents, and they thought that it was fair and right that we should grant this renewal.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Bill No. 71, respecting the Sterling Life Assurance Company of Canada-Mr. Mac-donell-considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mt. CARVELL:: 1.	How many appointments have been made to the Civil Service subsequent to October 12, 1911, under section 21 of the Civil Service Act?
2.	How many males have been thus appointed?
3.	How many females have been thus appointed?
4.	How many appointments have been made to the Civil Service prior to October 12, 1911, under section 21 of the Civil Service Act?
5.	How many males were thus appointed?
6.	How many females were thus appointed?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	210.
2.	205.
3.	5.
4.	107.
5.	105.
6.	2.


GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AT PETERBOROUGH.
Mr. BURNHAM:: How many employees, permanent and temporary, were in the service of the Government at Peterborough in 1911, and in 1915?


Mr. CODERRE:: Agriculture: In 1911, 2 permanent employees; in 1915, 2 permanent employees. In addition to these, the following persons held positions as official veterinarians in 1911, which they still occupy: T. Johnston, F. L. Robinson. The duties of an official veterinarian are limited to the issuing of district health certificates for export stock shipments. They do not receive any remuneration from the Department of Agriculture, but are permitted to charge twenty-five cents per head for each animal in a shipment up to and including eight, and two dollars for each shipment of eight or more animals.
Customs: In 1911, 6; in 1915, 8, besides one at present absent on active military service. An appraiser and additional officers were added in the interest of the service, being necessary for the proper transaction of the Customs business.
Militia and Defence: In 1911, 3; in 1915, 4, including R. T. Biggs, who has enlisted with the Third Contingent, and his substitute, Wm. Stanley.
Post Office: In 1911,	20 permanent, 1
temporary; in 1915, 28 permanent, 5 temporary. Two of these men have been taken on to replace two men who have gone to the war.

Public Works: In 1911, 2 permanent; in 1915, 2 permanent.
Railways and Canals: In 1911, 34 permanent, 272 temporary; in 1915, 29 permanent, 24 temporary.
Inland Revenue: In 1910-11, 6 permanent, 1 temporary; in 1915, up to March 1, 1915, 5 permanent, 1 temporary.
Labour: In 1911, 1; in 1915, 1.


JOHN KRANS.
Mr. KAY:: 1.	Is John Krans in the employment of the Department of Agriculture, or any other department of the Government? .
'	2. What are his duties, and what salary does
he receive?
3.	Who recommended his appointment?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	Not in the employ of the Government.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-WORKS NEAR ANTIGONISH.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM:
1.	What amount has heen paid to the contractors for or on account of the Intercolonial railway abutments near Antigonish, N.S. ?
2.	What has been the actual cost to date of said abutments?
3.	Has the final estimate sent to the Department of Railways, or to the Moncton office, for said work been paid?
4.	What is the nature of the unsettled matters referred to in the answers given to questions put relating to this contract on the 11th inst., and why have they not been settled?
Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	$17,240.19.
2.	Total charges to date, $20,755.40.
3.	Yes.
4.	The penalty clause for non-completion within contract time.


CAMPBELLTON-GASPE STEAMSHIP SERVICE.
Mr. MARCIL:: Has any decision been arrived at regarding the request of the Board of Trade of Camp-bellton, N.B., and Dalhousie, N.B., council, for a semi-weekly steamship service between Camp-bellton and Gaspe? If so, what is it?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: The Gaspe and Baie des Chaleurs Steamship Company, which performs the service between Camp-Ibellton and Gaspe, has 'been offered what the department considers a reasonable subsidy for a semi-weekly service between these two points. In default of their acceptance of this offer the company has been instructed to carry out its present contract, which expires at the close of navigation of this year. _


DISEASED PIGS IN FRONTENAC' COUNTY.
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	How many pigs have been shot In Frontenac county by order of the Government during the past year, owing to an outbreak of cholera or other diseases?
2.	What are the names of the owners of such pigs, and the amount of compensation allowed in each case?
3.	How many pigs in Frontenac county, in addition to those ordered to be shot by the Government, died of cholera or other diseases, so far as the Government can estimate?
4.	What was the cause or origin of the said outbreak of cholera?
5.	Has the cause been removed and the disease stamped out in said county?
6.	Have any general precautionary instructions been issued to prevent a recurrence of the outbreak?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	Six hundred and eight hogs were destroyed in Frontenac county by order of the Government during the past year, owing to an outbreak of hog cholera.
2.	The names of the owners of such hogs and the amount of compensation allowed in each case:
No. Compensation.
Messrs. Nicholson and Elliott,	452	$3,965.3-3Henry Price and William Saunders.. ..	5	21.66Wm. Patterson	2	20.00Fritz Ditrich	4	18.00Erwin Ditrich	7	37.33Henry Webber	43	232.66E. .7, Metcalfe	3	20.00Wm. Gollogly	16	134.00Andrew Howie	13	61.00David Bauder	9	48.00Jas. A. Downie	8	53.33R. Harpell	31	213.33W. J. Norris.. ..	6	32.00
A. Ubdgrove, compensation cancelled.
3.	The department has no information with -regard to the number of hogs which might have died in Frontenac county from diseases with which it does not deal.
4.	The department is of the opinion that the outbreak of hog cholera in Frontenao county was due to the feeding of garbage.
5.	In so far as is possible the cause of the outbreak has been removed; all owners have been warned not to feed garbage and have been advised that if they continue feeding this material and an outbreak of hog cholera occurs on their premises the department may withhold -compensation. Owing to the peculiarities of the organism causing hog cholera, it is quite impossible, at this early date, to -say whether or not the disease has been eradicated in the

count.y in question. The last suspected case has been dealt with, and owners have been instructed to notify the department should they detect any signs of illness among their hogs.
6.	The precautionary measures taken to prevent a recurrence of the outbreak are outlined in the answer to question 5.


NEW CARLISLE PUBLIC BUILDING.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was the erection of a Dominion public building at New Carlisle, Quebec, authorized in the estimates of 1911-12?
2.	If so, was this building erected? If not,
why not?	[DOT]
3.	If not erected, was any request received since October, 1911, asking that the work be proceeded with? If so, from whom, and what answer was given?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No, as other and more important works were to be considered.
3.	Yes, from Mr. J. A. Mousseau, of New Carlisle, approved by Hon. L. P. Pelletier, to which a reply was made that the matter would receive consideration and the necessary amount would be noted in the Estimates at next session (1913-14). On 14th April, 1913, the hon. member for Bonaven-ture asked a question in the House: "Does the Government intend erecting a public building at New Carlisle and what steps have been taken to that end," to which the answer was: "Matter not finally disposed of."


ESCUMINAC WHARF.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was the construction of a wharf at Escu-minac, Bonaventure county, Quebec, authorized in the estimates of 1911-12?
2.	If so, was this work proceeded with? If not, why not?
3.	Has any request been received since October, 1911, asking- that this work be done? If so, from whom, and what answer was given?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No, as more important works were to be considered.
3.	Nothing on file in the records of the department.


ST. PIERRE AND SOREL POST OFFICE.
Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Has the post office at St. Pierre de Sorel, county of Richelieu, been closed?
2.	If so, at whose request, and for what reason?
3.	Who asked for the establishment of rural delivery system for Ste. Victoire, county of Richelieu, Ste. Victoire rural delivery No. 11?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No request was made. The post office was closed in accordance with the policy of the Post Office Department to close all post offices which have been rendered unnecessary by the patrons thereof being brought within scope of the rural mail delivery service.
3.	Rene Lariviere, Joseph Poirier and 29 others.


ST. AIME RURAL MAIL.
Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	What are the names of the persons who tendered for the carrying of mails in the parish of St. Aim6, county of Richelieu, and. what was the amount of each tender?
2.	To whom was the contract awarded, and at what price?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	St Aime rural route No. 1-Theophile Forcier, $850, reduced to $775; Philippe Godin, $900; Norbert Lamoureux, $900; Exeas Lebrun, $950; H. Brouillard, $975. St. Aime rural route No. 2-Fernando Forcier, $800, reduced to $759.50; Louis Belisle, $800; Norbert Lamoureux, $875; Pierre Larochelle, $900.
2. St. Aime rural route No. 1-To Theophile Forcier, at $775; St. Aime rural route No. 2-To Fernando Forcier, at $759.50.


SHEFFORD COUNTY RURAL MAIL.
Mr. BOTVIN:: 1.	Who is the mail carrier appointed by the Government for the delivery and collection of mail upon the rural mail delivery route in the county of Sliefford, known as Warden No. 1.
2.	By whom was he recommended?
3.	What salary does he receive?
4.	Were any other tenders received for the said position?
5.	If so, from whom, and for what amount?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Lorenzo Bachand.
2.	The contract was awarded after public tenders had been invited.
3.	$600 per annum.
4.	Yes.
5.	L. Bachand, $800, reduced to $600; W. F. Shores, $800, reduced to $625.


SABISTONS-HALF-BREED SCRIP.
Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: 1.	Did James Sabiston, George Sabiston, sr., George Sabiston, jr., William Sabiston and Colin Sabiston, or any of them, apply to the Department of the Interior for half-breed
scrip ?
2.	If so, has such scrip been issued, and to whom was it sent?

3.	Was such scrip deliverer! to each of the above named .parties, or any of them?
4.	Has the Department of the Interior received any receipts for such scrip from the above named persons, or any of them?
5.	Has the Department of the Interior re. ceived any correspondence or communications
of any kind from any of the above named parties, or any one in their behalf, asking that the said scrip be issued to them?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes, all of them.
2.	Yes, sent on 31st October, 1912, to E. Widmeyer, agent of Dominion Lands at Dauphin, Manitoba, for delivery to the grantees personally.
3.	Yes, to each one personally.
4.	Yes, from each of them.
5.	Yes.


D. A. MCDONALD.
Mr. McKENZIE:: 1.	When, in the year 1913, was D. A. McDonald, of north side of East Bay, Cape Breton, appointed foreman, on wharf construction at that place?
2.	By whom was he recommended?
3.	How long was he in charge of the -wharf construction?
4.	When was he dismissed, and for what cause ?
5.	At whose request was he dismissed?
6.	How much was expended on that wharf, at the north side of East Bay, during the years 1912, 1913 and 1914?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	13th October, 1913.
2.	Mr. John McCormick, of Sydney Mines.
3.	15th to 29th November, 1913, and 9th to 31st March, 1914.
4.	He was not dismissed, his services as foreman automatically expired at the end of the fiscal year.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
6.	1912-1913, $80; 1913-1914, $1,155.66; 19141915, $1,000. Total, $2,235.66.
NORTH CAPE BRETON RENTED .	BUILDINGS.


Mr. McKENZIE:: How many buildings are rented by the Department of Customs in the riding of North Cape Breton and Victoria?
2.	Where are they situated, and for what purpose are they used respectively?
3 Prom whom are the buildings rented, and upon what terms as to length of lease and amount of rental per month or per year, as the case may be?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	Three.
2.	Iona, for custom house; St. Ann's, for custom house; North Sydney, for King's and examining warehouse; size, 24 ft. x 40 ft., two stories.

3.	A. R. McNeil, Iona, $75 per year; D. McAulay, St. Ann's, $12 per year; W. S. Thompson, North Sydney, leased for 3 years from October 1, 1913, at $360 per year.


WILLIAM MACDONALD.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Is William Macdonald, formerly of Meri-gonish, Pictou county, employed in the Department of Customs at Ottawa?
2.	If so, what is his position and'salary?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


KENZERVILLE-BARNEYS RIVER MAIL SERVICE.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Has the contract for the mail service between Kenzerville and Barneys River, county of Pictou, been awarded?
2.	If so, to whom, and at what price?
3.	Who were the tenderers for the contract?


Mr. CAS GRAIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	It was awarded to Alexander Ross, the lowest tenderer, at 59 cents per trip, or $184.67 per annum, but he claimed that he had tendered too low, and asked permission to withdraw his tender. His request was granted, and the contract awarded to A. W. McKenzie, the only other tenderer, at 74 cents per trip, or $231.62 per annum.


LOUISVILLE POST OFFICE BUILDING.
Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	How much did the building for the new post office at Louisville cost?
2.	By whom did the Government have the work, in connection with that building, superintended ?
3.	What price was he paid for the works.
4.	When did he discontinue that superintendence?
5.	Does the Government know whether or not that superintendent is a builder by trade, or if he knows anything about building?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	$21,650, not including site, fittings etc.
2.	Under supervision of Clerk of Works P. A. Mousseau.
3.	$4 per working day.
4.	Discharged on 29th December, 1914.
5.	No, but he performed his duties, as clerk of works, to the satisfaction of the department.


STE. URSULE-LOUISVILLE MAIL SERVICE.
Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	How many tenders were received by the Post Office Department for the last contract awarded for the carrying of mails between Ste. Drsule and Louisville, county of Maskinongd?

2.	What is the price asked in each of such tenders?
3.	To whom was the contract awarded, and at what price?
4.	Was his the lowest of the tenders?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Five.
2.	Ephrem Grenier, $299, reduced to $262: F. X. Belland, $267; Alphonse Lessard. $275; Edouard Lesage, $295; Olivier Mineau. $500.
3.	Ephrem Grenier, at $262.
4.	Grenier's offer at $262 was the lowest received.


RESTIGOUCHE DREDGING.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was any dredging done at Restigouche, Quebec, in 1914?
2.	If so, (a) what was the amount expended, and (b) at whose request?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes, at Champoux wharfs, Mission Point, and Ste. Anne de Restigouche, Q,ue.
2.	(a) $6,915.60; (b) D. Champoux.


THE MATAPEDIA ROAD.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was any work done on the Matapedia road in 1914?
2.	If so, at what places, what was the nature of the work, and how much was expended?
3.	Was the work done by contract or day work, and under whose supervision?
4.	Is the work completed? If not, is it proposed to go* on with it this coming season?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The work done consisted of the repairing and rebuilding of several bridges and culverts and the reconstruction of a portion of the highway from Beaurivage to Mill-stream. Expenditure $4,559.83.
3.	Day labour. Under supervision of District Engineer J. C. Tache and Foreman Alfred Lepage.
4.	No. The amount of $2,500 has been noted in the Main Estimates 1915-16 to go on with this work.


WAR SUPPLIES-HAY.
Mr. COPP:: 1.	What is being paid for hay supplied the Militia Department at Amherst, N.S. ?
2.	Were tenders called?
3.	If so, were they made public?
4.	From whom were tenders received?


Major General HUGHES:: 1.	$21 per ton.
2.	Yes.
3.	Question not understood.
4.	Edgar Fillmore, Russell M. Embree. Robert Mitchell.


CARSLAKE HOTEL, MONTREAL.
Mr. McMILLAN:: 1.	Has the Government purchased a property known as the Carslake hotel in the city of Montreal ?
2.	If so, (a) what is the purchase price, (b) how much has been paid up to date, and what are the dates of these payments?
1.	The Carslake property in the city of Montreal has been expropriated and the case is now before the Exchequer Court.
2.	(a) The Exchequer Court will establish the price to be paid; (b) paid on account. August 15, 1914, $175,000; paid on account. November 21, 1914, $45,000; total, $220,000.


ST. ARMAND STATION RURAL MAIL.
Mr. KAY:: 1.	Who were the original tenderers for rural route No. 2, St. Armand station?
2.	What was the amount of the tender in each case?
3.	To whom was the contract let and at what price?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	G. G. Johnson, D. C. Hogle, B. J. Hastings.
. 2. G. G. Johnson, $600, reduced to $450; D. C. Hogle, $700, reduced to $550; B. J. Hastings, $950, would not reduce.
3.	To G. G. Johnson at $450.


YARMOUTH HARBOUR DREDGING.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. De WITT FOSTER :
1 What was the price paid per cubic yard for dredging in Yarmouth harbour for each year from 1906 to 1911 inclusive?
2.	Who were the contractors to whom these prices were paid?
3.	Who were the inspectors for the Government in each year?
4.	What amount was each inspector paid per day?
Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	1906-1907, no dredging under contract; 1907-1908, no dredging under contract; 19081909, Class A, $5 per yard, Class B, 50 cents per yard; 1909-1910, Class A, $5.02 per yard. Class B, 52 cents per yard; 1910-1911, Class A, $4.90 per yard, Class B, 90 cents per yard; 1911, Class B, 28 cents per yard.
2.	Dominion Dredging Company, Ltd.
3.	1908-1909, T. A. Crosby, Cereus Johnson, A. N. Kimball. 1909-1910, Geo. L. Wet-more, T. A. Crosby. 1910-1911, Captains N. S. McKinnon, C. W. Carty, Chas. McCarthy. 1911-1912, Thos. A. Crosby, N. S. McKinnon.
4.	Thos. A. Crosby, $2 and $2.50; Cereus Johnson, $2.50; A. N. Kimball, $2.50; Geo. L. Wetmore, $3; N. S. McKinnon, $3; C. W. Carty, $2.50; Chas. McCarthy, $2.50.


AMHERST MILITARY CAMP REFUSE.
Mr. COPP:: Who receives the refuse of the Amherst
Military Gamp, and how much is 'being paid for same?


Major General HUGHES:: P. T. Smith,
emptying dry earth closets at 95 cents per load, and emptying refuse pits at 20 cents per load.


WAR SUPPLIES-MOTOR TRUCK TIRES.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Where any motor truck tire3 purchased for
the first contingent?	.
2.	If so, (&) from whom were they purchased, and (bj by what firm manufactured?
3.	What price per set was paid for them?
4.	Were they of the same sizes and designs purchased for the second contingent?
5.	How many sets of each size and design purchased for the first contingent were similar to those purchased for the second contingent?


Major General HUGHES:: 1.	Twenty-eight and two-thirds sets were purchased for replacement only.
2.	(a) The Canada Cycle and Motor Company; (b) the Dunlop Tire and Rubber Company.
2.	An average of $390.18 per set of six tires.
4.	The same design, but not the same size.
3.	None of the first contingent trucks were equipped all round with 38x5 size tire, as used for the second contingent; the design of all is similar.


LEVIS QUARANTINE STATION.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	In what newspapers was call for tenders for the construction of the buildings of the Lfrvis quarantine station published?
2.	During how rhany days was that call for
tenders published?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	Quebec Chronicle, L'Evenement Daily, L'Evenement Weekly.
2.	Quebec Chronicle, three; L'Evenement Daily, three; L'Evenement Weekly, two.


CONSOLIDATED FUND EXPENDITURE.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	What was the total expenditure on account of Consolidated fund from April 1, 1914, to March 1, 1915?
2.	What was the expenditure on account of Consolidated Fund, for the same period, for each of the sub-heads of such expenditure as shown on pages 65 to 73 inclusive of the public accounts for fiscal year ended March 31, 1914?
[Mr. Rogers. 3


Mr. W. T. WHITE:: 1. Total expenditure on account of Consolidated Fund from April 1, 1914, to
March 1, 1915, $109,600,697.72.
2. Interest on Public Debt.$	9,694,864.88
Charges of Management ..	..	390,650.87
Sinking Funds	 1,279,900.79
Premium, Discount and Exchange	 2(,063.89
Civil Government	 4,970,121.44
Administration of Justice..	..	1,038,777.25
Dominion Police	 91,572.14
Legislation	 939,141.67
Penitentiaries	 701,626.79
Arts, Agriculture and Statistics	2,339,351.30
Immigration	 1,451,512.98
Quarantine	 189,828.27
Pensions	 238,549.66
Superannuation	 337,478.12
Militia	-	8,917,129.35
Mounted Police	 731,133.81
Public Works Consolidated
Fund	 15,649,410.77
Railways and Canals Consolidated Fund	 597,850.63
Mail Subsidies and SS. Subventions	 1,627,647.38
Ocean and River Service..	..	1,074,391.71
Lighthouse and Coast Service	1,918,856.92
Marine Hospitals	 44,433.06
Steamboat Inspection	 54,038.56
Fisheries	 908,299.81
Geological Survey	 326,227.26
Scientific Institutions.... 426,991.44
Subsidies to Provinces... 10,310,187.27
Indians	 1,747,703.67
Government of N.W. Territories	 2,462.84
Miscellaneous	 1,584,771.70
Yukon Provisional District	..	316,701.81
Customs	 3,177,724.42
Excise	 698,353.34
Weights, Measures, Gas and
Electric Light	 208,895.60
Culling Timber	 8,103.16
Inspection of Staples	 384,283.35
Adulteration of Foods	 23,717.61
Post Oflace	 9,766,856.26
Public Works Collection ..	..	635,389.91
Railways and Canals Collection	 11,164,105.65
Bounties	  112,126.77
Dominion Lands and Parks	..	2,879,609.06
Trade and Commerce	 1,487,423.22
Naval Service	 1,689,572.84
Labour	  56,293.89


CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT BILL.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 74, to amend the Criminal Code- Hon. C. J. Doherty (Minister of Justice)- read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions

steam service between Annapolis and London or Hull, England, or both, $5,000.
['I have not provided for\nthat.']
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Was this service performed last year?


George Eulas Foster: Nothing was paid out on account of this subsidy last year for a service between Annapolis and London or Hull; in fact, no subsidy has been paid on this account for the past two years simply because it has been difficult to make arrangements for a line from Annapolis to Hull. This year it was not found possible to make an arrangement but the United Fruit Company were very anxious to have help at the critical time in the transportation of their apples, and I took the liberty of telling them that under certain conditions, and with approved vessels, I would ask the House to change the wording and transfer the subsidy to vessels running from Halifax to these ports instead of from Annapolis. Under that proviso they have sent four vessels all loaded fully with apples from Halifax to the old country. In the Supplementary Estimates I will ask to have the wording changed from Halifax to Annapolis for this year only in order to encourage the service.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was any reduction of
ocean freight rates secured in connection with these four steamers chartered for the transport of apples last season?


George Eulas Foster: Just what the
rates were I do not know but the vessels were chartered by the company itself.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The United Fruit Company?


George Eulas Foster: By the United
Fruit Company and I understood from them that they got fairly moderate charters. The rates were governed by the amounts they would have to pay for the chartered vessels. They were not trying to make money out of it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The United Fruit Company made all arrangements as far as the chartering was concerned?
129a


George Eulas Foster: Yes.
Mr. JAMESOiN : Instead of striking out the word " Annapolis " and substituting the word " Halifax," I would suggest to the minister that he put in the words " or Halifax " after the word " Annapolis " so that it will read:
Steam service between Annapolis, or Halifax, and London or Hull, England, or both.


George Eulas Foster: I have no objection to that; the word can be inserted in the Supplementary Estimates.
Steam Service between Canadian Atlantic ports and Australia and New Zealand, $140,000.


George Eulas Foster: This is the same subsidy as last year, and a similar service has been carried on. There are some points in connection with it which it might be well to mention. The distance covered by this line of steamers is 15,656 miles, and it is in distance the longest service which we subsidize. It is a service which is subsidized one way. It takes exports from Canada to New Zealand and Australia. The vessels are free to get their freights as they choose back to the Old Country, and from the Old Country here, and then they pick up the service on this side. That arises from the fact that we cannot get a line, without expending a very large amount of money, which would keep to the one track, inasmuch as from Australia there is a comparatively small amount of freight offered for this side of the Atlantic, as Australia and New Zealand do the bulk of their trade exchange business with Canada by the Pacific Coast.


Wilfrid Laurier: What will be the effect of the Panama canal on this route?


George Eulas Foster: We cannot tell yet until it is tried by actual experiment, but the Panama canal might very well have the effect of carrying that traffic through it. The amount of freight that was carried last year was about equivalent to what was carried the year before, which had a value of $4,621,000 from Canada and $960,000 from the United States. The line is bound to fill all Canadian requirements before taking any freight from the United States. The articles that are principally exported are lumber, automobiles, vehicles, calcium carbide, paper, sole-leather, agricultural implements, rubbers, iron pipe, hardware, seed, fruit, cereal foods, wire, steel rails and organs. .


Wilfrid Laurier: What line of steamers is it?


George Eulas Foster: The New Zealand Shipping Company.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: May we expect to have a formal announcement from the Minister of Trade and Commerce as to the conclusion of negotiations on trade arrangements with New Zealand and Australia?


George Eulas Foster: There is no conclusion and, therefore, there is no formal announcement to make yet.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is four years since
you commenced.


George Eulas Foster: There are two
parties to the bargain, and the Legislature in Australia has been subject to a good deal of political excitement and some political changes within the last year and 4 p.m. a half. They were in the throes of an election contest shortly after I reached Australia, and when that contest was decided the odd juncture was brought about of the dominant party, if you [DOT] can call it such, having a majority of one in the House and a majority of four to one against it in the Senate. Under those circumstances, not much progress was possible in any kind of legislation, and really nothing was done with the exception of passing estimates in which both sides agreed. There came another election contest by which the party that had been defeated the year before was successful in the House of Representatives, and retained the largest part of its majority in the Senate. That legislature had but a short meeting in the autumn, and then adjourned to meet again in the middle of April. They passed a resolution embodying tariff changes, and that resolution, of course, as with us, has the effect of law, but the tariff Bill itself remains for action when Parliament meets again. In that, tariff preference was arranged for the United Kingdom, the Mother Country, and for her alone.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What was the
nature of that preference? Do I understand the minister to say there was a change made in the British preference applicable alone to the United Kingdom?


George Eulas Foster: The tariff resolution which was brought down in the first part of the session raised the duty on almost all articles that were imported into Australia, and instituted a preference of ten per cent on articles coming from the United Kingdom, and giving that preference to no

other country. The matter stands for consideration, and whether or not anything will be done before they pass their tariff legislation cannot be said.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then the minister is not likely to conclude any treaty with Australia in the near future; is that what the minister states.


George Eulas Foster: The minister
states what he has stated; that no conclusions have yet been reached and consequently there cannot be any conclusions announced.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: Is this subsidy meant for the promotion of foreign commerce?	.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, foreign commerce in this case with exclusive relation to the exports from Canada and without reference to imports.


Michael Clark: Does the minister not expect anything to come back to Canada?


George Eulas Foster: No; frankly I did not expect anything to come back on these steamers, because under the arrangements which are necessary with the subsidy that is given, these steamers would have to load up in Australia and go may be to Africa, thence to Europe, and then come back here, and of course nothing could be taken by that roundabout route. I am saying nothing as to what stimulus in the way of exports back again has been given, but they would find their way through the Pacific ports.


Michael Clark: Under usual circumstances I should think if was a very unprofitable line to subsidize; but perhaps I ought to congratulate this Government that they are not bringing anything back, because that might interfere to a certain extent with things being made in Canada.


George Eulas Foster: This is, I think, the sole instance in which we have given way to the prejudices of my hon. friend.
Ocean and mail service between Canada and Great Britain, $1,000,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: How is that -applied ?


George Eulas Foster: This service has been almost completely broken up, although if we compare it with the mail service from New York, we are not much worse of comparatively than the people are in the United States. Taking in two new steamers, the Calgarian and the Alsatian,
we commenced with a very good selection of steamers running from seventeen up to nineteen knots in speed. As soon as the war broke out, there commenced a system of requisition by the British Government for the purposes of the war. Owing to vessels being taken off from time to time, the service has declined until (now the whole fleet of the Canadian Pacific running between Canada and the old country is reduced to three cargo vessels and one passenger vessel. The best vessels of the Allan line have been requisitioned and are now in transport service. The Canadian Northern vessels have gone entirely off the route, having also been taken by the British Government for transport purposes. The White Star line may have one not very large vessel still running; all the others have been taken. The Allan line have still quite a number of vessels, but they are less important and of smaller cargo capacity and less speed. Therefore at the present time not only is this service crippled to a very large extent, but we are up against a somewhat grave condition of affairs in connection with the transportation of products from this side of the Atlantic to the other. The arrangements mentioned in the House the other day, that had been made by the Admiralty for the putting on of 18 vessels to carry supplies, unfortunately does not directly provide any carriage for general produce. It is meant entirely and solely for the carriage of British Government supplies, and incidentally of supplies going to our own troops, if there is space therefor. It is calculated, however, if we take into account what has been ordered in.this country and what has to go, that if those 18 vessels are secured,	all	the	space
that they can afford	will be taken
up with Government supplies, and that they will not afford any outlet either for general freights from this side or for freights which originate in contracts of companies or private individuals for war nur-poses on the other side. It of course relieves what may be possible of a chartered vessel-fleet from having to carry those supplies, and incidentally it is a help to the general transport of the country in that respect. There is a very great scarcity of vessel-space throughout the world, and we experience it in Canada to a verv laree extent. A list has been made of the vessels on the Great Lakes which are more or less able to carry ocean freight, and I believe that a considerable portion of the tonnase of the lakes will be chartered for the carrv-

ing of freight across the Atlantic. In fact, some of the lake vessels have been chartered already. These vessels, however, are small in carrying capacity, and therefore will not take the place of the immense freighters which have disappeared from our lines. At the present time an effort is beine made- and I hope it will be successful-bv which a number of the vessels that have been taken from our main lines may be released by the British Government, that Government chartering vessels from other than our regular lines to fill their places. All that can be done is 'ait this moment being done to bring that about, so that bv the first of May, if possible, we miay have a portion of the old carrying fleet back again at work.


Wilfrid Laurier: Have vou a special contract with any company?


George Eulas Foster: The contract runs until the last of this month: but the vessels have been so disorganized that we have not had the service that we exnected to have; nor have we paid the subsidies that we expected to pay. Although the contract runs up to the end of this month, a system of readjustment will have to be followed whereby we shall pay as subsidies what is reasonable considering the less speed and less capacity of the vessels.


Wilfrid Laurier: I suppose you have no exclusive contract with any company; but you subsidize four companies, namely, the Canadian Pacific, the Allan Line, the Canadian Northern and the White Star, and you pay according to the amount of mail matter which they carry?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. They are paid on a basis of the speed and the capacity that they give us as compared with the speed and the capacity of the vessels which were contracted for.
Steam service between Canada and- Cuba, $25,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister give the committee some idea as to the trade between Cuba and Canada? Has it grown in recent years or is it just maintaining its own?


George Eulas Foster: The appropriation was expended during the past years, although not during the year that has just passed. This service was carried on by the Elder-Dempster line. Mexican affairs became, as my hon. friend knows, very troubled and very mixed, and Elder, Dempster & Company gave up their service to

Mexico and, in connection with that, the service to Cuba. There has been no subsidized service between Canada and Cuba during the last year; but this item was kept in and is still kept in, so that if it happens that an advantageous arrangement can be made, we shall have this sum with which to carry it out.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the minister made any effort to negotiate some preferential tariff arrangements on behalf of Canada with Cuba? I do not know whether that is a practical question, but I have often heard it suggested in the maritime provinces, particularly in my own province, which at one time had a very considerable trade with the island of Cuba. Under favourable conditions a large trade might be built up between Cuba and Canada, particularly through Eastern Canada. I have heard the opinion expressed by business men in Halifax that if some modifications of the Cuban tariff on Canadian products could be secured it would facilitate trade very much. I imagine this matter has been brought to the attention of the minister at some time or other, and 1 should be glad to hear a statement from him with regard to it.
feir GEORGE FOSTER:	The attention
of the department has been constantly directed to that matter. But as mv friend knows, the United States and Cuba up to the present time have a trade arrange ment by which each gives the other a preference


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is that a permanent
affair, a portion of the Constitution of Cuba?


George Eulas Foster: I do not think so. But changes in the sugar tariff, which was the great incentive to Cuba to make the arrangement, will soon come into operation in the United States, and sugar from Cuba will no longer be in a favoured position in the United States market. When that takes place it may be possible to make some arrangement with Cuba. But at present, while that preference continues, there is not much that can be done. Cuba offers a market for quite a number of our products. The returns under the old service show that in 1912 the value of products exported was $62,969, consisting chiefly of fish, potatoes, paper, lumber, oats and hay.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That trade is smaller
than it was years ago.


George Eulas Foster: i think that is
true.

Steam service between Canada and Newfoundland, $70,000.


George Eulas Foster: That is the same vote as last year.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I thought I saw that
one of these vessels had been taken over by the British Government.


George Eulas Foster: I have not had notice of it. There was a loss of a ship a few years ago. It was replaced by a very good ship. Both vessels on this route are good ones and the service is very well maintained.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this service
performed by a line leaving New York and calling at Halifax?


George Eulas Foster: No, this is between Sydney and' Port aux Basques.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is the Reid Railway Steamship Service?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The Lintrose of this
line has been sold to the Russian Government, ana has noi been replaced on the line, so far as I know.


George Eulas Foster: That has not
been brought to my attention, and I think the two vessels must be running still.


George Perry Graham: There was an item in
the press a day or two ago about it.


George Eulas Foster: I will make inquiry about it.
Steam service between Canada and the West Indies, or South America, or both, $340,066.66.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: If the minister has the information at hand, I should like to know what the imports and export figures are for the eleven months of the present fiscal year ending February. I am particularly anxious to know the effect of the West India Treaty upon trade.


George Eulas Foster: I have not the figures referred to, but I will make a note of the point, and before we are through with these Estimates I will give an answer. I can give the figures of the carrying by this route. I think there was a sailing or two with these new vessels in the latter part of 1913, but the service really began in 1914. There was an unfortunate shipwreck, and one of the vessels went down on the Nova Scotia coast, and that somewhat disarranged the service. I can say generally, from inquiries made the other day, that the freight offerings are very satisfactory, in fact, the agent of the company
told me that they were not able to take all the freight that offered from sailing to sailing, and a quantity remains over. The movement of flour has been particularly good. The passengers carried in 1914 in twenty-six trips were 3,287, and the freight 142,718 tons, value $2,618,000. In this there was nothing of United States origin, all being of Canadian origin.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Can the minister inform me whether there are any differences between the Canadian Government and the West Indian Islands, who were parties to the treaty with respect to the interpretation of that treaty? My recollection is that since the close of Parliament last June, there was some difference of opinion in regard to sugar, some change in regard to the Dutch standard. I may not be right as to that, but my recollection is that there was a good deal of correspondence on the subject.


George Eulas Foster: The correspondence that took place had reference not to the matter that the hon. gentleman has just mentioned, but to the extension of the preference to outside dependencies. An Order in Council was passed two years ago under which we extended the British preference to all the British dependencies that had not previously enjoyed it, with one or two unimportant exceptions. The question then arose as to what effect that would have on the sugar market, having particular regard to Mauritius sugar. It was felt in the West Indies that this extension of the preference might affect the Canadian market for the West India Island product. As a matter of fact, not a pound of sugar came into this country from Mauritius last year; I understand that Mauritius sugar goes chiefly in other directions. After a good deal of correspondence, it was decided that upon the expiration of the preference given to the other West Indian Islands and British dependencies, the question with regard to Mauritius will be taken up with the consideration of what further general action will be taken in this respect.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There was some question as to the Dutch standard, was there not?


George Eulas Foster: The Dutch standard is made up every year in Amsterdam, chiefly from a collection of Java sugars. This standard is made up by traders, and has no official significance in Holland, not being used as a basis of tariff. There wa3 some little difference in colour between the

standard of this year and that of last year, hut the new standards are now made up and will be here in the course of a few weeks. There may be no difference between the new standard and standards of the past.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the nature of the Order in Council-perhaps I am not describing the instrument properly-under which the British Government, shortly after the declaration of war last year, prohibited the export of sugar from the West India Islands? Did that prohibition apply to exports to Canada?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The West India exporters, under that Order in Council, could export only to the United Kingdom?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is that Order in Council still in force?


George Eulas Foster: No. Great
Britain's idea was to make it possible for her to buy all these sugars in the West Indies and other places, to sell them to the British refiners at a certain rate and then to fix the price at which the refiners should sell to the consuming public; this she did. As soon, however, as Canada directed the attention of the British Government to the manner in which this might affect our trade, the prohibition was entirely taken away so far as Canada was concerned.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How long was it in existence? Under its provisions, were large quantities of sugar actually purchased by the British Government?


George Eulas Foster: I do not think
it operated to prevent any sugar from coming to Canada that would otherwise have come. The prohibition lasted about three weeks; perhaps less.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do the freight rates between Canada and the West Indies meet with public favour, or is there adverse criticism of them? Are the rates revised each year?


George Eulas Foster: The contract is so drawn that the Minister of Trade and Commerce has the power to approve the tariff of rates. No tariff of rates can be put into effect until it receives the assent of the minister. The tariff rates that were instituted when this service was inaugurated were about the same as those which existed under the Pickford and Black

arrangement; at the same time the vessels engaged in the service were more commodious and better in every respect. If there were any changes at all in the rates, there were but few; in some cases I think they were a little lower. When the war broke out, bringing with it additional risks and additional transport difficulties, the rates then in force were considered too low. My hon. friend knows that the service between Canada and the West Indies is a very difficult one. Although outward freights have been very good, the very occurrence to which my hon. friend referred, practically took away the major amount of return freight, and shipments' coming back were so small, the war risks so great, the rate of wages paid so much higher, that for these and other reasons the company asked for an increase in their rates. To a certain extent I acquiesced in that respect; I did not give them all they asked for, but I did give a fair increase in rates. I would not be able to say there is no criticism, but so far as I can judge, I think the rates are reasonable, and I think that that is the general view. This company have always treated very sympathetically any suggestions I have made with a view to the betterment of the service, and in most instances have done what I thought was reasonable that they should do.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Have these rates been increased ?


George Eulas Foster: The rates have been increased, by permission of the department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why?


George Eulas Foster: Simply for the reasons which I have been trying to state. It may be argued that if you subsidize a steamship service, no longer should the general influences which go to make freight rates higher or lower have their force; that the subsidy itself is a guarantee against any increase of freight rates. While that argument has some force, I do not think that under all circumstances it is applicable. After considering the matter carefully, and having regard to the best advice which I was in a position to obtain, I gave this increase in the rates of freight, deeming it to be not unreasonable under the circumstances.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Upon what principle did they ask for that increase ? Was it because of a loss in freight, which would have to be met by an increase in rates, or

was it because they wanted to participate in the world-wide increase in freight rates ?


George Eulas Foster: I think I stated, but perhaps not clearly enough, the grounds upon which they claimed the increase. First, owing to the prevailing abnormal conditions, the freight from the West Indies practically fell to nothing.
When you take away the sugar business you take away the greater part of return cargo to fill the transport from the West Indies. They were therefore in the Dosition of having a contribution one way of freight that was large, and another contribution the other way that was abnormally small; and that arose from a condition over which neither they nor we had any control. There has also been an increase in wages, and in the price of provisions and coal; so that in view of all these conditions and the war risk I think their ground for an increase a reasonable one.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will this freight rate tariff remain in force for a year, or does the department reserve the right to amend it in the event of a return to normal conditions?


George Eulas Foster: Oh, certainly, we have that right. This is iust a temporary increase. When these abnormal conditions pass away or begin to pass away the increase in rates will diminish or pass away along with them.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has this service been increased by inter-island trade in the West Indies?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, they have a very good interinsular service. Their services fit in with each other very well; in fact,
I think the best possible arrangement has been made in that respect.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is about the same as last year so far as we are concerned?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is no South
American service this year?


George Eulas Foster: No, except that the Royal Mail Steamship Company have some interchangeable services with certain ports on the South American coast, and they have made arrangements for through bills of lading and through freights so far as those services are concerned.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Just as it was last vear.


George Eulas Foster: Yes.



[Stage Direction]
Steam service between Canada and South Africa, $146,000.
George Eulas Foster: That is the same subsidy as last year, and to the same line, under the same contract. Last year they took out $3,236,000 worth of Canadian freight, and $948,000 of freight of United States origin. The principal freight that goes there is flour, agricultural machinery, calcium carbide, binder twine, automobiles, paper, lumber, cereal foods, wooden ware, furniture and so on. I think that Canada has the great bulk of the paper trade with South Africa, probably 95 per cent, and a large proportion of the flour business with that country. Just within the last few days the department has purchased a large amount of flour for consumption in South Africa itself, for South Africa has always to import a certain quantity of foodstuffs in the way of flour and wheat. Australia, New Zealand and South Africa all had failures with their last corn crop, and are consequently calling upon other countries for supplies.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this a direct service?


George Eulas Foster: This is a direct service one way, the same as the Australia service. The service has been distinctly favourable to Canada.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are the figures you have quoted of last year's trade higher than the figures for the preceding year?


George Eulas Foster: The value of the trade was just about the same, but of course circumstances have been rather against us this year.
Steam service between Halifax, St. John's,, Newfoundland and Liverpool, $20,000.


George Eulas Foster: This is the same subsidy as before.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this service
performed by Furness, Withy & Company, of Liverpool?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.
Steam service between Montreal, Quebec and Manchester, England, during the summer season, and between St. John, Halifax, and Manchester during the winter season, $35,000.


George Eulas Foster: That is the same as last year.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: These steamers carry a certain quantity of lumber, do they not?


George Eulas Foster: Not a great deal, except from the maritime provinces, from


EDITION
[Stage Direction]
129"
[Stage Direction]
which they take some timber, box boards, and the like. From St. John they take deal and lumber. These steamers carry a great variety of freight. Last year they carried goods of Canadian origin * to the value of $9,000,000 odd, nearly $1,000,000 more than the preceding year; and of United States origin, $1,705,000, as against $3,000,000 the preceding year, so that Canadian exports show an increase for the year of a little over a million dollars, and United States exports a decrease of a little over a million. The ships take from Montreal chiefly oats, wheat, cereals, oil cakes, hay, lumber, cotton waste, jewellers' sweepings and so on.
William Pugsley: It is a very useful service. Have any steps been taken to regulate the freight rates, particularly since the outbreak of war ? I notice by the newspapers, and I have heard from shippers of lumber, that vthe freight rate on lumber has almost trebled since the war broke out. Now, if the Government were to see that reasonable and fair rates were charged- and I think that under the subsidy contracts they have power to control the freight rates-it might do a great deal towards making general freights reasonable. If the subsidized lines would carry at reasonable rates, other steamship companies not subsidized would be obliged to follow suit, I think, to a certain extent.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, to a certain extent, provided the call was not so immeasurably greater than could be filled by the subsidized steamers. I do not recollect a single complaint as to rates having been made to the department with reference to this line, and as regards the freight rates of the Manchester line I think I should have heard if there had been any complaints, for such matters very quickly find their way to the department. With reference to our regular lines, the Canadian Pacific railway, the Allan line, and others, I know from personal knowledge that they have kept their own freight rates down, and not only as regards the transport of British Government supplies and our own supplies, but as regards what other freights they have been able to carry in addition. They have kept their rates down to a reasonable level, and I am very glad to know they have not taken advantage of the general rise in charters and freights to exact extortionate rates. As my hon. friend knows, the minister has the power of revising the rates, but it is a very difficult task in these times to decide what a reasonable freight rate is.

Winter steam service between St. John, Dublin and Belfast, $7,500.


George Eulas Foster: That is the usual vote.


Mr.  A. K. MAOLEAN@: Was the service performed this year ?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, in a way.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who were the contractors ?


George Eulas Foster: The same contractors as before, the Ulster Steamship Company Limited,	of Belfast,
but instead of the usual eight or nine sailings, only four were given. Some of their vessels were taken and the service was disturbed. Of course, we have only paid the subsidy in proportion to the trips they made.


William Pugsley: Why is it necessary in
these various services between Canada and British ports in the winter season to compel the vessels to make the two ports of St. John and Halifax? Why could not there be some arrangement under which some lines would go to St. John and some to Halifax, so that there would be a direct service to and from each port? There is an added danger and delay in compelling the steamers to make both ports. I do not know whether it is feasible, I do not know whether the people of the two ports would be satisfied or not, but I have always thought that it was a very great mistake, both in connection with the mail and freight service, to compel the companies to make both ports. I believe the people whom I have the honour -to represent would not be selfish or unreasonable in the matter, but would be quite willing to have these services fairly divided between the two ports. It seems to me that during the winter season the services between Canada and Great Britain, and between Canada and the West Indies, could be divided between the two ports. The present arrangement adds to the inconvenience, delay and expense of the vessels, and it must add very greatly to the inconvenience of shippers.


George Eulas Foster: A good deal of what my hon. friend says may be true, but he and I have lived some considerable time and we have both been acquainted with St. John and Halifax during all that long time. My hon. friend knows that there are some difficulties that stand in the way of an adjustment on this brotherly and economical

basis that he is proposing. As far as this service, and what I may call the smaller services, are concerned, there has been no agitation in the last two years as between St. John and Halifax. They seem to have settled into the way of carrying on the transportation system and-


William Pugsley: I suppose they have got tired agitating.


George Eulas Foster: It would be courting the fates, I am afraid, if I were to be adventurous enough to propose a change So long as things are going on in peace and quietness, I would rather let them go on.


William Pugsley: I am sorry to hear that from my hon. friend. It seems to me that he would be just the one to take hold of this matter, ignore what has taken place in the past and strike out upon the new path which he would consider to be right. It is a great mistake to be satisfied with what has been in the past. We are apt to get into a rut and continue a state of affairs which it is not advantageous to continue. My hon. friend says that there has been no complaint during the last two or three years. He can understand that the people of St. John have got tired of complaining.


George Eulas Foster: They will be
pretty well tired out if they do not complain.


William Pugsley: I do not see why a satisfactory arrangement could not be made that would be more convenient to both sides.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does my hon.
friend refer to passenger, freight and mail services?


William Pugsley: Yes, all services. If we could not give a weekly service at each port then I would give a fortnightly service, one week to Halifax and the next week to St. John. In regard to freight steamers, I would pick out the different subsidized lines and arrange for some to go to St. John and some to go to Halifax, so that each port would have a direct service. I am sure it would be an infinitely better service if you had one direct mail steamer running from St. John and one from Halifax. Even if there could only be a fortnightly service from each port you would have a direct service. There is waste of money, there is added danger and inconvenience and neither port gets the opportunity for development which might take place if there were a direct service.
m


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I have no doubt that in so far as the freight service is concerned, there must be a divided service as between St. John and Halifax. St. John is a very important port for export and import trade, and doubtless it will be a port which will in the future handle a great deal of our import and export traffic. I would not care to admit, however, that the same division in steamship services could be as fairly applied to the ordinary passenger and mail steamships. I would prefer to take the position that the steamships should be left to select their own ports and that the Government should make a contract with the companies for the port which they desire. I think they would be the better judges as to the ports which would afford them the best of facilities and which, generally speaking, would be most acceptable to the travelling public. The Government, more than a year ago, adopted as its policy the suggestion I am now making, but under political pressure I fear they were led to abandon it. The Minister of Trade and Commerce could tell us exactly what was the cause of the abandonment of that programme. I do not say he should tell us, but I only mean to say that if he cared to he might and could. There is a distinction between the freight service and the ordinary passenger and mail service. I would like to ask the Minister if there was a contract entered into recently for the Atlantic mail service with the Canadian Pacific Railway, White Star and Canadian Northern lines?


George Eulas Foster: For next year?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: For next year.


George Eulas Foster: It is absolutely impossible to make any contracts; there are no vessels for you to contract with.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I understand that, but I thought a contract might be tentatively made hoping that normal conditions would shortly be resumed and that the service could again be started up.


George Eulas Foster: The trouble
about that is that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, for instance, which contributed most of the vessels, and some very excellent ones, have not a single vessel of that description, and they do not know whether these vessels will come back to them in two months or a year or whether they will ever come back. We have taken the vote so that if matters do arrange themselves we can make a contract, but the

contract will only be made on the basis of the vessels offered.
Winter service between St. John and Glasgow, $7,500.


George Eulas Foster: This service is performed by the Donaldson line. They have been interrupted as well, and they made but eleven voyages last year instead of fifteen or sixteen.
Winter service between St. John, Halifax, and London, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: The same remark applies to this; they have made a lesser number of voyages than in preceding years, but they have carried a large amount of freight in the meantime.
Steam service between Canada and Australia or New Zealand, or both, on Pacific ocean, $180,509.


Wilfrid Laurier: What company has this contract?


George Eulas Foster: The Union
Steamship Company of New Zealand.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was this service interrupted?


George Eulas Foster: These vessels have not been requisitioned, and they are carrying on the service.
Steam service between Canada, China and Japan, $253,333.34.


George Eulas Foster: That service has been interrupted, and, in fact, dismantled. The Empresses have all gone, one after another, and the Monteagle is at present the only vessel left.
Steam service between Prince Rupert, B.C., and Queen Charlotte Islands, $16,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What company conducts this service?


George Eulas Foster: The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is it a weekly service?


George Eulas Foster: There are two round trips each month from November to March, and four round trips each month during the remaining seven months of the year.
Steam service between Victoria and San Francisco, $3,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What traffic is there to justify this?


George Eulas Foster: This is not justified by traffic, although it has traffic. This is to keep the covenant which was made at

Confederation with British Columbia, under which a service was to be kept up between Victoria and Vancouver and San Francisco.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is it at all utilized?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. The subsidy at that time was in the vicinity of $20,000. I remember when I was in the Government before, the uselessness of the service, compared with the amount of money
5 p.m. expended on it, did not commend itself to the department, and we cut it down to this sum, which is the smallest with which we could keep the traffic alive.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is it a passenger and freight service?


George Eulas Foster: Yes; 3,630 passengers were carried; 3,534 tons weight, and 4,386 tons measurement. The traffic last year was a little less than in the preceding year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In which direction is the greater portion of the traffic?


George Eulas Foster: The out traffic in passengers is 200 more than the in traffic. The in traffic in freight is the larger, which will be exactly to the liking of my hon. friend from Red Deer.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But it makes out a very strong case against the views of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to maintain a steamship company to carry into Canada so much of American products. The Minister of Trade and Commerce and the member for Red Deer had better get together on that.


George Eulas Foster: I am afraid we are as near together as we will ever get on this point.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there any desire on the part of the people of British Columbia to continue this service?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. I made them the offer that I would take this sum of money and put it on any other service, if they would agree to it, but they would not. So long as objection is made the articles of faith must be adhered to.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What are the chief products inward?


George Eulas Foster: The articles exported are liquors, automobiles, household goods and salmon; the income is bottle caps, cement caps and empty cylinders.
Steam service between Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagway, $12,500.


22, 10X5
George Eulas Foster: The total distance run on this service is 447 knots; the number of passengers carried was 7,500, and the freight 8,000 tons.
Steam service between Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia, $16,800.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I suppose this service is to ports in northern British Columbia which are not served by a railway?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who are the contractors?


George Eulas Foster: The Union Steamship Company of British Columbia.


Wilfrid Laurier: Does that include the service between Vancouver and Prince Rupert?


George Eulas Foster: The regular
sailings are from Vancouver to Granby Bay, which is on Osbervatory Inlet.
The service takes in the northern British Columbia ports from Vancouver Island.
Steam service, from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1915, between GaspS Basin and Dalhousie or Campbellton, $20,000.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister explain that item?


George Eulas Foster: I think my hon. friend knows that item as well as I do, and the section of country which is served. I will explain the situation of the matter as it is. This service was performed between Gaspe Basin and Dalhousie and Campbellton. The old service was carried on by the Gaspe and Baie des Chaleurs Steamship Company. Last year the proprietor of that line died, and the estate was not able to carry on the service. An arrangement was made for two years by which the service, which was then semi-weekly, should be made a weekly service, and the amount paid was half of the old subsidy. This service was undertaken by the present company, which put on two boats, the Gaspesia and the old Canada. The boats ran all the way through to Montreal, thus making the .weekly service. No subsidy was given either theoretically or practically for the service between Gaspe and Montreal, because there are other subsidized services on that line; but it was considered by this company that it would be profitable to it if it extended the service to Montreal. The company therefore ran its two boats to Montreal and did a better business for itself. I cannot say that the service in that way was at all satisfactory to the people between Gasp6
and Campbellton. It certainly was not satisfactory, because what the people asked for was the old semi-weekly service. I had some negotiations with the company, and it was willing to take up the semi-weekly service be.tween Gaspe and Campbellton with the steamship Gaspesia, but it asked the sum of $20,000 to do it. The company is under contract to carry on the service as last year until the end of the present year.
I made the company an offer of $15,000 for this service, if it would put on the Gaspesia between Campbellton and GaspA At present I do not see my way clear to give $20,000 for that service, and the company does not see its way altogether clear to perform it for any less. The company can stand upon its contract and run the service until the end of 1915 as it was run last year. Unless either the company or I come to a better frame of mind on the subject, that is the way in which the matter will have to stand.


Charles Marcil: I understand that the
merchants on the coast are quite willing that the service to Montreal should be kept up, because the minister will understand that it is a great economy to carry by water all the goods that are required in our district. As regards the service between Campbellton and Dalhousie and Gaspe, especially during the months of May, June and July, during the fishing season, it is very important that there should be a semiweekly service between those points. The minister should stretch a point and see that that service is put on, if not for the whole season, at least for half of the season. I know that the minister has had representations from Campbellton and Dalhousie. I hope that he will give the matter full consideration.


George Eulas Foster: I certainly will
do so.
Steam service between Halifax and Canso, $5,000.


Mr. KYTE:: What steamer is performing that service?


George Eulas Foster: The Scotia.
Steam service between Halifax and Newfoundland via Cape Breton ports, $10,000.


George Eulas Foster: That service is
being carried on by the Seal, an excellent vessel, which gives a good service.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Can the minister tell
me at what ports in Cape Breton the Seal proposes to call?


George Eulas Foster: Halifax to St.
Peter's, St. Peter's to Grand Narrows, Grand Narrows to Baddeck, Baddeck to North Sydney, North Sydney to Sydney, Sydney to Ingonish, Ingonish to Neil's harbour, Neil's harbour to Aspy bay, Aspy bay to St. Paul's island, St. Paul's island to Channel, Channel to Codroy, Codroy to Bay St. George, Bay St. George to Bay of Islands, Bay of Islands to Bonne Bay. If there is any other hay or island there than those, the Seal would probably call at them. She seems to cover most of them.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What will happen
when the St. Peter's canal is closed? Some of those ports are available only by reason of the fact that the Seal goes through that canal.


George Eulas Foster: It was closed
last year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is not closed yet.


George William Kyte: I understood that the Department of Railways and Canals had determined to close the canal and complete the improvements.
Steam service between Halifax, Spry Bay and ports in Cape Bretori, $4,000.


George William Kyte: This is the only steamship line that gives an all-year-round service in eastern Nova Scotia. I am particularly interested in this because it is the only means of communication we have by water [DOT]between Halifax and the constituency I have the honour to represent. The contract expires, I think, about the 21st of March. Will a new contract be made in due course?


George Eulas Foster: If not already made it will be made.
Steam service between Halifax, South Cape Breton and Bras d'Or Lake ports, $4,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is this vessel, the Scots-burn, assigned to call at any particular ports?


George Eulas Foster: The same ports as last year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am anxious that she should call at the northern ports in Victoria county. When steamers are subsidized it is desirable that they should make calls at ports not otherwise reached. They are only too anxious to slip these calls if they are allowed to do so.


George Eulas Foster: The ports called at are Halifax, St. Peter's, Grand Narrows, Iona, Baddeck, Sydney, North Sydney, Glace Bay, Port Morien, Main-a-dieu, Louis-
burg, Gabarus, East Bay, Johnston's Harbour, Irish Cove, Big Pond and Castle Bay.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It does not go north at all. It is highly desirable that these ports should be called at.


George Eulas Foster: This is the same list as last year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The northern part of Victoria is a great fishing centre, and it is sometimes very difficult for the fishermen to get their catch to Halifax. As this is a subsidized service, it would be of great advantage to have a vessel call at these ports.


George Eulas Foster: Perhaps some other service goes there.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: At these places along the Bras d'Or lakes, where the railroad runs and where the boats are almost knocking against one another, it is not so important to have a subsidized service as at places along the coast where there are no railroads.
Steam service from the opening to the close of navigation in 1915 between the mainland and the Magdalen Islands, $18,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the minister ever had a request from Mr: Leslie for a subsidy for a service between some Nova Scotia point and the Magdalen islands?


George Eulas Foster: On several occasions, but not this year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The minister must have discouraged him very much.


George Eulas Foster: There was no very great encouragement given last vear. though he wias listened to and we discussed the matter. But it does not seem possible to run a double service to the Magdalen islands, and the service now under discussion is the old-established line, and far the quickest route for mail.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Mr. Leslie's application has strong support from the Halifax Board of Trade and those interested in fisheries, and I believe the service would be of great advantage to the people of the Magdalen islands. I hope that if the matter is again presented the minister will look at it more favourably, at least that the minister will not discourage the applicant.


George Eulas Foster: I shall be glad to see him.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister had an application for a subsidy for a service between the Magdalen islands and the mainland of Gaspe to which the islands belong?


George Eulas Foster: Not that I remember.


Charles Marcil: The present service is from Pictou?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. a verv eood vessel and a very good service.
Steam service between Petit de Grat and Intercolonial railway terminus at Mulgrave, $7,000.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Leslie is the contractor for this service.


George William Kyte: Has the minister received
word as to inefficiency of the service in the winter time?


George Eulas Foster: Representations were made last autumn and winter. But at a certain season, as the hon. member knows, it is very difficult to make some of these ports, and you do not want to impair the ship. I think the company has done its best under the circumstances.


George William Kyte: The complaint that I have in mind is that he is obliged to lay the steamer up for inspection and repair at certain seasons of the year, and that he does not carry on the service with another boat during that time. The company which performed that service previously had several boats, and when the regular boat was laid up for repairs, the service was not interrupted. I suppose the contractor could hardly be expected to keep two boats on hand for the purpose of performing this service.


George Eulas Foster: There is a provision in the contract whereby he is permitted to lay off for two weeks in winter and two weeks in summer. These are comparatively short periods.
Schooner service between Pictou, New Glasgow, Antigonisb and Mulgrave, $1,000.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: Has an application for increased subsidy in connection with this service been received this year?


George Eulas Foster: Some correspondence has been had with regard to an increased subsidy, or, more properly, with regard to the placing of a different kind of vessel on the route, which would involve a larger subsidy. It is not possible during war time to accede to these requests.


William Chisholm: I think this is the only schooner service along the coast. Until a few years ago, we had a steam service. The service performed by the schooner is very satisfactory, all things considered, but the
trouble is that the harbours have been neglected and steamboats are not able to reach the wharves. During the years 1912, 1913 and 1914 money was provided for the necessary improvements, but the work has not been done, and as a result we now have a schooner service instead of a steam service.
If the minister has any influence with the Minister of Public Works, I would ask him to do something in the way of having repairs made to the wharves and breakwaters, and to have dredging done at these ports which will ensure it as satisfactory a service as we have had in the past.


George Eulas Foster: It is true that because of the shallow water it is difficult for large boats to get into these ports. As to how much influence I may have with the Minister of Public Works, I do not quite know; I will try him and see.
Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1915 between Pictou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp, $7,500.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Is it the intention of the department to subsidize a schooner to operate along a portion of this route?


George Eulas Foster: No, it is not.


William Chisholm: That is unfortunate. The port of Margaree is in pretty had condition and a steamboat would be of no use, because it would not be able to get to the wharf. If a schooner were subsidized to run say from Margaree to Mulgrave, it would be a great help to the people living round that port. There was a time when a steamer could get into that harbour, but unfortunately, like other ports along the coast of Antigonish county, this port has been neglected. $10,000 was provided in 1910-11 to effect an improvement in the condition of the harbour, hut the amount has not been spent. I am sorry that the minister does not see his way clear to provide a small subsidy for a schooner along with route.


George Eulas Foster: As my hon.
friend will see, I am not adding any increases by way of subsidies. I am afraid that if I once departed from the rule, the whole fence would come down.
Steam service between Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton and Newfoundland, $16,500.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What are the ports of
call?


George Eulas Foster: The service is carried ou by the Dominion Coal Company, Limited, between Montreal and Newfoundland, with calls at Prince Edward Island

and Cape Breton ports. It is practically applicable to Prince Edward Island in that it gives the island the advantages of regular calls for the traffic which during certain months of the year it carries on to a considerable extent with Newfoundland. The ports of call are: in Prince Edward Island, Summerside and Charlottetown; in Nova Scotia, North Sydney and Sydney; on westbound trips, Sydney.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The terms of last year were similar to these?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I understand that the steamer, although it made regular trips into Sydney harbour, did not call at the port of North Sydney, which is named as one of the ports of call. I hope the minister will see to it that the company carry out their contract.


George Eulas Foster: The calls at Summerside and North Sydney are conditional upon there being a sufficient depth ot water and a reasonable amount of freight offering at those ports. I have not received any complaints with reference to either of these ports, but I shall be glad to consider any representations which may be made.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The complaint may
not have reached the minister last year, but it is said that a considerable amount of freight for North Sydney was taken by the steamer to Sydney, and that the consignees had to get it over on the ferry or the best way they could. The boats of the Reid Newfoundland Company call at the terminus of the Intercolonial railway at North Sydney; there is quite a depth of water there, and I do not see why the boats of this company should not call there also.


George Eulas Foster: I do not know that they have said that there is not a sufficient depth of water there, but I will look into the matter.
Steam service between Rivitre du Loup, Tadoussac, and other north shore ports, $6,000.
Sir WIlFRID LAURIER:	Is that a
summer service alone?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.
Steam service between St. John and Bridgetown, $2,500.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does this steamer call at Digby and intermediate ports?


George Eulas Foster: Thirty-two
round trips are made between St. John and Bridgetown, calling at Ray's Creek, Tupper-ville, and Round Hill; and on and after

June 1, 1914, calling fortnightly at Clements-port and Deep Brook.
Steam service between St. John, Digby Annapolis and Granville, viz., along the west coast of the Ananpolis basin, $2,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this not a duplicate of the service mentioned in item 210?


George Eulas Foster: It is not a duplicate, with the exception of that part of the way from St. John *across. It is not a duplicate at the ports.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister
consider restoring the subsidy that was paid to the other steamship line between St. John and Bear river? It is a very important service, but the subsidy was withdrawn two or three years ago, and for reasons which never appeared to me very sound. Has the minister been asked to restore that subsidy?


George Eulas Foster: I think there
has been some correspondence about it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There always has been some correspondence about it.


George Eulas Foster: I will look it up and give my hon. friend tne facts.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would rather see the people who were giving that steamship service before get the subsidy, and the minister can keep his facts. I do not think the company was treated quite right.


George Eulas Foster: I shall be willing to discuss it with my hon. friend when I get the facts, or be very glad to have him talk it over with me at any time. There was no politics in tue withdrawal of the subsidy; it was a question of economy, and advantage to the public service.
Steam service or services between St. John, Westport, and Yarmouth and other way ports' $8,500.	'


Mr. LAW:: What boats are performing that
service?


George Eulas Foster: The Westport III of the Insular Steamship Company, and the John L. Cann, of Cann & Sons, Limited.


Bowman Brown Law: Does the minister propose to take $800 off the contract with Hugh Cann & Sons and hand it over to the Insular Company? I understand they were notified to that effect.


George Eulas Foster: The question is up with reference to the Insular Company and the Hugh Cann Company. During the latter part of the fall the Westport III intermitted her trips on the ground that she

was losing money. The subject was brought to my attention, and we now have a vote of $8,500 for this service. I am trying to arrange for a reasonable and equitable division of the subsidy between the Insular Company and the Hugh Cann Company, so as to keep both these services going.


Bowman Brown Law: What are the amounts paid to each?''


George Eulas Foster: The Insular Company received $2,271.63, and the Hugh Cann Company $5,871.18. The Westport III has a trackage of 132 miles, and the other vessel a trackage of 96 miles. The contention of the Insular Steamship Company is that they receive a smaller portion than is their due, and I am trying to make an equitable division between the two companies, either on the basis of the same number of trips, or, if the pay is not sufficient, by cancelling a few of the trips. - Both of these are important services, and I wish to come to a conclusion which will be agreeable to the two companies.
The Westport III serves a portion which has no other service, and the intermission of this for a few weeks last fall was very bad for the fishing industry.


Bowman Brown Law: I am sorry that a difficulty has arisen between these two companies. The services performed by both are very important indeed, and I am confident that at the present subsidy there is no money in it for either. Messrs. Hugh Cann & Company have informed me that if the minister carries out his notice to them, that their subsidy will be reduced by $800, tney will have to take their boat off. Their service was carried on with great regularity during the year, not a single trip being missed; and by the 31st March next, they will have made 12 more trips than the contract calls for. This is a most important service to the south of Yarmouth; goods are transferred at Yarmouth and go to the ports in Shelburne county. If that boat is taken off it is going to be a great inconvenience to the merchants of Yarmouth and the merchants on the shore to the south of us. I trust the minister can see his way clear to keeping the amount paid to Hugh Cann and Sons the same as it was last year, and also that he may be able to supplement by a few hundred dollars-say $800-the amount paid to the Westport Steamship Company. They have an excellent service and they are doing a lot of good to the different ports at which they call. It would be a great inconvenience to the merchants of Yarmouth if these services were interfered with. We have the Canadian Pacific railway; the goods heretofore have had to come to Digby, they have had to be reshipped there and they come to Yarmouth, but not in the order in which they are loaded at St. John and brought direct to Yarmouth. I do hope the minister will consent to the increase of $800, which I think the Westport Company are entitled to. I know that they have not made a dollar and that if the amount of the subsidy is not increased they will have to take their boat off. It is the only case in which I would advocate any increase in the expenditure this year, and I do it because they should certainly have this small amount.


George Eulas Foster: I quite agree with what my hon. friend says as to both of these services. If I can keep them both on I will be glad to do so.
Steam service during the season of 1915 between Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports. $6,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is there any change in the service there?


George Eulas Foster: The same as last year.
Expenses in connection with the supervision of subsidized steamship services, $3,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was this amount expended last year, or is there an official attached to the department who performs this service?


George Eulas Foster: We have a regular official of the department who gives his whole time to the work of supervision during the season of navigation. He goes over all the routes, calls at all the ports and makes inquiries as to the convenience of the transfers. He supervises the sanitary and other arrangements of the steamships, and I must say he is a good officer and that his work has had an excellent effect upon the service.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is his name?


George Eulas Foster: Tupper-a good name.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It was once.


Bowman Brown Law: How often is he supposed to go?


George Eulas Foster: He goes over the route once each year at least, and if there is any special necessity to make an examination he is sent to make it.


William Pugsley: This pays for his travelling expenses?


George Eulas Foster: This pays for his salary and travelling expenses.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: May I ask the minister whether the statutory votes immediately under the items we have been considering will be expended this year, or are they for interrupted services?


George Eulas Foster: The first one, the Canada, China and Japan service, is wholly interrupted, and the other, the Canada-France service, is partially interrupted.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I see that the total amount voted, and including the statutory votes, is $2,962,000. Will the minister inform the committee what proportion of the amount he expects will be expended during the next fiscal year?


George Eulas Foster: I cannot tell exactly, but I should say that of the Atlantic ocean services, outside of the large vote of $1,000,000, we shall expend the whole. With reference to the Pacific ocean services, with the exception of the Canada, China and Japan service, we will probably expend the whole, unless something occurs that has not occurred this year in the way of disturbance. In the local services I think every one of them will eat the whole amount that is appropriated to it, because the services are constant. They are going on, they are not interrupted, and the contract generally is pretty well lived up to. While there may be the omission of a few passages, it will not amount to a great deal. There will probably be an expenditure of between $2,250,000 and $2,500,000.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Indians-Ontario ; relief, medical attendance and medicine, $11,000.


George Perry Graham: How is that money
spent?


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Superintendent general of Indian Affairs):: The Indians in the northerly section of Ontario, north of Lake Superior and in James bay district, depend largely on the chase for their living. In consequence of the war the Hudson Bay Company and other fur-traders are this year limiting their purchase of furs, and it is expected that the Government will have to outfit the Indians this year instead of the fur-traders, as formerly. It is contemplated that we will have to distribute more

relief to destitute Indians and consequently there is an increase of $4,000 in this vote.


Mr. PROULX:: How many Indians reserves are there in Ontario?


William James Roche: There are over thirty.


George Perry Graham: I presume there will be no extra relief required for the Indians on reserves in the older portions of the province; this is for the Indians who depend mostly on the fur trade?


William James Roche: Yes.
Indians-Quebec ; relief, medical attendance and medicine, $17,000.


Charles Marcil: How many Indian reserves are there in Quebec?


William James Roche: About sixteen.


Charles Marcil: What are they?


William James Roche: Becancour, Bersimis, Cacouna, Caughnawaga, Lorette, Micmacs, Maniwaki, Maria, Mingan, North Timiska-ming, Oka, Restigouche, Seven Islands, St. Regis, St. Francis.


Charles Marcil: What is the total Indian population of Quebec?


William James Roche: Nearly 13,000.


Charles Marcil: Is it growing?


William James Roche: It remains about stationary.


George Perry Graham: Are the Quebec Indians affected by the war as are the Ontario Indians?	.


William James Roche: The Northern Quebec Indians will be. The Indians in Quebec have very little funds of tneir own from which they can draw, and we have to maintain a great many of them especially in the outlying reserves.


Charles Marcil: What is the population
of the Restigouche Reserve?


William James Roche: 523; it is about stationary.


Charles Marcil: How many Indians are
there at Maria?


William James Roche: 117.


Charles Marcil: Is there a physician appointed permanently for these Indians or do you employ a medical man as he is required?


William James Roche: At some of them, Restigouche for example, we employ a physician as he is required.


Charles Marcil: Is that found to be more costly than if you had a permanent physician?


William James Roche: It depends on the proximity of tne medical man to the reserve and the number of patients. In some cases we would not be warranted in paying a medical man a salary and in other cases the salary works out to better advantage perhaps.


Charles Marcil: Is a medical man employed at the request of the Indian agent or of the Indians themselves?


William James Roche: The agent employs him.


Charles Marcil: Has the agent to employ a man named by the department?


William James Roche: Where the Indians do not themselves contribute towards the expense, they are not permitted to take their own physician. The department I think generally employs tne physician recommended by the Indian agent. Sometimes the department cannot recommend a man because it does not know whom to recommend.


Charles Marcil: What was spent for
medical service on the Restigouche reserve last year?


William James Roche: Dr. Frenette, $73.05; Dr.
A. Martin, $388; Dr. L. G. Pinault, $18.25.


Charles Marcil: What is the residence of Dr. Frenette?


William James Roche: I do not know.


Charles Marcil: Dr. Martin and Dr.
Pinault reside in Campbellton. Dr. Frenette is a stranger to me. The hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) recommended a doctor who resided about fortv miles awav from the reserve. Whether this Dr. Frenette resides at Campbellton or not, I do not know. The minister would be at a disadvantage employing for political purposes people living at a distance from a reserve. The agent began to do some road makine last year and the year before on the Maria reserve. I had a letter asking that more work be done on that road. What has been done?


William James Roche: $500 was spent on that reserve last year.


Charles Marcil: Does that complete the work?


William James Roche: There will very likelv be
spent a similar amount during the present
season.


Charles Marcil: How is that work done?
By day labour by the Indians?


William James Roche: By day labour. Indians being employed as far as possible.


Charles Marcil: I suppose the work is under thS control of the agent.


William James Roche: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Was there any trouble on the Restigouche reserve in connection with the saw-mill there?


William James Roche: No.
Indians-Ontario and Quebec; general legal expenses, $5,500.


Mr. W. M. MARTIN:: I understand the department has some legal men attached to it? It is difficult to understand what work should be done by lawyers not connected with the department that could not verv well be done by those officials of the department who are legal men.


William James Roche: We have a law clerk in the inside service, but those expenses are in connection with outside work. The case of the Oka Indian reserve had to be carried to the Privy Council, and it involved a considerable expenditure. We had to engage some Montreal lawyers. In the last few years there have been a large number of cases in Canada which have been paid out of this appropriation.


William Melville Martin: Does the department undertake the defence of Indians who are charged with crimes in different parts of Canada ? In such cases, does the department pay counsel to conduct their defence ?


William James Roche: Not unless the offence is a capital one.


George Perry Graham: This item is for legal expenses in Ontario and Quebec. How are the expenses divided between Ontario and Quebec ?


William James Roche: The appropriations are
grouped under Ontario and Quebec legal expenditures. I have .a list of the cases that have been tried, some of which are in Quebec and some of which are in Ontario. I have not any tabulated statement -as to how many of them are in Ontario and how many in Quebec.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister the names of the Ontario legal men who were engaged ?


William James Roche: There is the ease of Booth vs. the King, on which were engaged Chrysler and Bethune. J. C. Judd was engaged in connection with the Cayuga Indians. A. B. Thompson was engaged re

the Rama, Indians. Macdonald, Shepley, Donald and Mason were also engaged. Those are the names of the lawyers from the province of Ontario.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: I would like to call the attention of the minister to a special case in my own riding. At the present time we have a few members of a tribe called the Malecites who are scattered over the country. Only one family lives in the town in which the reserve is. The man's name is Baptiste Launiere, and he is very poor. On the reserve there are two lots with pulp wood on them. I would advise the minister to take note of the matter, and see if he can find his way clear to sell those two lots and give the money to the Indians, as the department used to do before. The reserve is located in the township of Whitworth in the county of Temiscouata. During last fall I was obliged to write to the department asking it to permit that poor Indian to cut some pulp wood, because the agent down there was very hard to deal with and wanted to keep the pulp wood. After writing the department twice, I succeeded in having permission given to that poor Indian, who was nearly starving, to cut some pulp wood on those two lots.


William James Roche: I understand that some relief was given in that particular case.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Yes, but after I wrote twice to the department. I had to tell the department to put its agent right and to make him take a little more care of the Indians under his charge.
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM: Will the minister say whether it is permissible to cut pit-props on Indian reserves, and to sell them to any person that chooses to buy ?


William James Roche: On some reserves thev cut pit-props quite extensively.


William Chisholm: Is it permissible in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: I think so.


William Chisholm: Is there any nenaltv
for purchasing pit-props cut by the Indians on the reserves there?


William James Roche: If the props are cut in trespass or if they are not cut according to our regulations, there is a penalty.


William Chisholm: I have a case in mind which arose a year or two ago. The Indians on a reserve in Antigonish, being industrious, cut pit-props and sold them to a dealer who had been in the habit of buying year after year and who paid the regular market 
price. Soon after he was waited on bv a so-called officer of the department-I do not know whether that officer had authority or not. Then a man was put in charge of the props and the props were loaded with others on a car. The purchaser was subjected to a penalty of $15 and also expenses of something like $25 or $30. So, not only had he to pay for the props; but he also had to pay a penalty exacted by the department, and on top of that something like $1.50 a day for a fortnight or more that the man was in charge.


William James Roche: The props were cut in trespass.


William Chisholm: The purchaser was not a trespasser. The Indians brought in the props in the usual way and were paid in the usual way. But somebody got busy and the purchaser was penalized.


Charles Marcil: Have the fur operations
in northern Quebec been profitable? Are they self-sustaining?


William James Roche: They had a fairly good year, but they are not self-sustaining: the department has to assist them.


Charles Marcil: Are the furs taken in northern Quebec sold to one or two companies?


William James Roche: The Indians dispose of them where they please.


Charles Marcil: What about the liauor business there, is it extensive or is it well controlled by the department?


William James Roche: We have not had many complaints, and very few serious ones. We have officials for the express purpose of keeping down the illegal traffic in liquor and keeping liquor away from the Indians. We recognize that it is very injurious to the Indians in Quebec or any other province, and we have had comparatively little trouble with it in the past year.


Charles Marcil: The general tone among the Indians as to morality and temperance is improving, is it not?


William James Roche: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I think it would be interesting if the minister would give a statement to the country of the Indian population at the present time. Is it increasing or decreasing? And could he tell us, also, the difference, if there is any, between the relations with the Government of Indians on a reserve like that of the bay of Quinte and Indians in the Northwest.


William James Roche: I have here the report of the Department of Indian Affairs, which will give the information in as direct a form as possible. It says:
the Indians of Ontario are more prosperous than those of other parts of Canada. Though they number over 26,000, the expense of looking after them is comparatively small.
There has always been a good deal of interest manifested in the question of Indian population, and I am glad to say that, while some bands show a considerable increase and others a slight decrease, the total population remains approximately 100,000. The table immediately following shows a net decrease of 2,716. This, however, does not mark an actual decrease in numbers by death or emigration. It is difficult to secure accurate statistics for the interior of the far North, and it was thought advisable to eliminate from the census returns that were merely conjectural. Gradually, as this part of the country opens up and becomes more accessible, it will be possible to secure reliable statistics.	-
Examination of the table referred to will disclose decreases in Manitoba, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, besides that already mentioned in the Northwest territories. In Manitoba there is a decrease of 532, in New Brunswick 14, and in Prince Edward Island 4. Increases will be found in the other provinces; Ontario heading the list with 342, while British Columbia shows an increase of 198, Yukon 139, Quebec 93, Saskatchewan 80, Alberta 52, and Nova Scotia 32.
It is impossible to secure an accurate yearly census of the Eskimos, and their population is shown as 3,447, the same as last year.
The hon. member wanted the figures showing the actual Indian population of Canada. They are as follows:
Provinces and Districts.
Alberta	
British Columbia.. ..
Manitoba	
New Brunswick. .	. .
Nova Scotia	
Ontario	
Prince Edward Island..
Quebec	
Saskatchewan	
Northwest Territories. Yukon	
Total	 Eskimos	
Total	
Population.
1913.	1914.
8,229	8,281
25,172	25,370
10,822	10,290
1,920	1,906
2,018	2,050
26,077	26,419
292	288
12,842	12,935
9,699	9,779
8.030	4,928
1,389	1,528
106,490	103,774
3,447	3,447
109,937	107,221


Charles Marcil: Is Ungava included with Quebec?


William James Roche: They are more largely selfsupporting.


George Perry Graham: That brings me to my other question-the difference, if any, in relations with the Government as between the Indians of a reserve like the bay of Quinte Reserve, and the Indians of the reserves in the West.


William James Roche: The Indians of the Bay
of Quinte reserve are entirely self-supporting, so that they cannot very well be compared with the Indians of the reserves in the Northwest, to whose relief we have to come each year.


George Perry Graham: Self-supporting Indians
are the wards of the Government, are they not?


William James Roche: Yes. Of course, the Bay of Quinte Indians have trust funds of their own.


Mr. GERMAN:: If I may be pardoned for interrupting the consideration of the Estimates, I wish to announce to the Minister of the Naval Service that I have just received a wire containing the information that the village of Port Colborne in the county of Welland, which has a population of less than two thousand, collected for the patriotic fund $13,000 in two days, or over $6 per head of the population.


Charles Marcil: I think the hon. member for Welland (Mr. German) deserves to be congratulated. I met the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) a couple of nights ago, and he told me that Quebec is still ahead of Ontario.
Indians-Ontario and Quebec; general expenses, $51,075.


George Perry Graham: What do these general
expenses consist of?


William James Roche: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister give us * the figures for Ungava separately?


William James Roche: I have not that before me.


Charles Marcil: Are there reserves in Ungava under the control of the department?


William James Roche: No.


George Perry Graham: A fair inference from the figures that the minister has given is that


William James Roche: General expenses of management at the different agencies, including salaries, office expenses, clerical expenses, travelling expenses. There is a reduction of over $700 under that head.


George Perry Graham: When the item respecting Indian schools is reached, I would like the minister to give a statement as to the number of schools, the number of pupils, and what advancement the Indians are making along the line of education.

Indians-Nova Scotia, salaries, $6,200.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister
explain the increase?


William James Roche: This is an apparent, not a real increase. The salaries of two Nova Scotia superintendents, which were voted under the heading of general expenses, have been put under the heading of salaries; this accounts for the difference.


Mr. CARVELL:: Was a new superintendent appointed within the last year or two?


William James Roche: Superintendent Foster was appointed, I think, within the last year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Whom did he succeed?


William James Roche: It was a new appointment.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What rendered the new appointment necessary?


William James Roche: There are two superintendents in Nova Scotia, Mr. Boyd and Mr. Foster. I cannot of my own personal knowledge say very much about Mr. Foster, because his appointment was made during my absence. I presume, however, that it was made on the recommendation of the inspector, the agents, and the deputy superintendent general.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think this is a case in which my hon. friend should economize. It takes $6,200 to pay salaried officials to look after 2,000 Indians in Nova Scotia, an increase of $3,600 over last year. It is simply putting the fifth wheel on the coach to appoint another superintendent in Nova Scotia, and I think my hon. friend the minister will have very great difficulty in justifying the appointment on any other ground than that Mr. Foster, who is a very estimable gentleman, was a good political servant. In this year of special taxation upon the people, I think the minister ought to consider whether or not he can get along with one superintendent down there.


George William Kyte: Has the number of Indian
agents in the province of Nova Scotia been increased within the last couple of years?


William James Roche: During the last two or
three years I think but one additional appointment has been made.


George William Kyte: Where was that appointment
made?


William James Roche: At Windsor, Hants county.


George William Kyte: How many agents are there in Hants county at the present time?


William James Roche: Two.


George William Kyte: How many Indians are there in Hants county?


William James Roche: Eighty.


George William Kyte: What salary is paid the agents in Hants county?


William James Roche: The laTge amount of $100.


George William Kyte: It is quite large for the work they have to do. Is that the usual salary paid to agents in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: The highest salary is $200.


George William Kyte: Who receives the highest salary?


William James Roche: Mr. Chisholm, at Halifax, Mr. Freeman, at Lunenburg; Mr. Macdonald, at Richmond.


George William Kyte: The salary paid the former Indian agent at St. Peter's was $100. Upon whose request was the salary of the, present agent increased to $200?


William James Roche: I presume in the
first place at the agent's own	request, and then on the recommendation of the heads of the department, who considered that the agent was doing sufficient work to warrant the increase.' $100 is a very small salary.


George William Kyte: Has the department any official record to show that the present agent is doing more work than his predecessor?


William James Roche: If they have not, they certainly have something to show that it costs a good deal more to live to-day than it did two or three years ago.


George William Kyte: Is the present agent dependent on his salary as Indian agent for his living?


William James Roche: I presume not, but every little counts.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Has the Indian population increased to any extent?


William James Roche: No, it is about stationary.


William Chisholm: What is the salary of the agent at Antigonish?


William James Roche: 


Bowman Brown Law: What does the agent in Yarmouth get?


William James Roche: 


Bowman Brown Law: The agent at Yarmouth gets $50, and the agent at Hants $200. I do not think that is justice.


William James Roche: That is the salary he has been getting for a number of years.


Bowman Brown Law: I am surprised at the amount of money that is being spent in paying officials who have practically nothing to do. I see that $8,000 is being given for the relief of the Indians all over Nova Scotia. Why is this money not divided amongst the Indians, who certainly need it more than some of the agents who get this money? I think the minister might very well increase the salary of the agent at Yarmouth from $50 to $100.


George William Kyte: Do I understand that the only cause for increasing the salary of the agent in Richmond was the increased cost of living.


William James Roche: I did not say that.


George William Kyte: That is the only reason the minister gave.


William James Roche: I said there was nothing on file to show whether there had been an increase in the work.


George William Kyte: Has there been any increase in the number of Indians under his authority?


William James Roche: Very little.


George William Kyte: Has there been any increase at all?


William James Roche: I do not think 60.


George William Kyte: As a matter of fact, there has not been. Does this item include the salaries of teachers in the Indian schools?


William James Roche: No.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What are the particular duties of Mr. Foster, and what counties are under his supervision?


William James Roche: The western counties. He inspects the reserves and reports upon each one.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How many counties?


William James Roche: Halifax, and all west of Halifax.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Including Colchester county and Cumberland county?


William James Roche: I have not the list here, but I could get it for the hon. gentleman if he desires.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are his duties confined to certain counties, or has he general jurisdiction over the province?


William James Roche: The province is divided
between Mt. Boyd and Mr. Foster.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who made representation as to the necessity of this additional superintendent?


William James Roche: I think the hon. gentleman moved for a return.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There was nothing in it.


William James Roche: As I said at the opening of my remarks, personally I know nothing about this appointment. It was made in my absence. I presume that some person has been in the city of Ottawa and recommended the appointment of another Indian agent in that province.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: A very easy way.


William James Roche: The appointment was considered necessary. Personally I know nothing whatever about it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am bound to say that if the minister had been here he would never have made the appointment. I submit that the reason he has given for the appointment-that some person went to the Indian Department at Ottawa and said: We should like to have another superintendent down in Nova Scotia, and you had better appoint Mr. Foster-is not a good and sufficient reason why we should appoint another salaried official for the purpose of looking after the Indians who in the past have been perfectly well looked after by one superintendent. I ask the minister to look into this question and save this money, especially in this year of taxation and hard times. This -money would buy postage on 54,000 letters. I can quite see why the minister does not feel inclined to justify the appointment of this additional superintendent, and I am sorry he cannot give us any better justification of it than he has. I understand from my hon. friend from Halifax that the return which was brought down gave no information whatever except as to salary.


William James Roche: There is notning on the
file.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who was acting
minister when the hon. gentleman was away?


William James Roche: I was away so long, I
regret to say, that two or three ministers acted duing my absence-on one occasion

the Minister of Justice; on another the general utility man, the Minister of Customs; and on another the Minister of Public Works. I cannot say under whose regime the appointment was made.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the minister discovered whether there is any work for this new appointee to do?


William James Roche: Certainly. He forwards
his reports to the department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I know that, but has
the department discovered whether beyond the sending in of a report, there has been any work for him to do since the date of his appointment?


William James Roche: He visits and inspects
the reserves, and makes his reports.


William Chisholm: I do not
think the minister should be allowed to disclaim responsibility in that matter. Mr. Boyd had jurisdiction over New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, and I never heard that he was overburdened with work, or that he could not get over the whole country and still have lots of time to spare after doing his duties. The idea of appointing an extra superintendent at a salary of $1,800 and travelling expenses and $500 for an office is absurd in these hard times, when you are putting a tax on everything the poor man has to consume. Imagine this large amount of money being spent for salaries, when only $8,000 is being given for the relief of the Indians ! The only qualifications required, I suppose, were that the appointee should have been a good party man; and he was appointed, I suppose, solely because a job had to be found for him. There might be some justification for this sort of thing if the treasury was overflowing and the whole country was revelling in prosperity, but in these times I do not think the minister will find anybody in the maritime provinces, where the Indians are so badly used, to justify this appointment.


George William Kyte: When was the salary of the agent at St. Peter's increased to $200?


William James Roche: About two years ago.


George William Kyte: When was he appointed to that office?


William James Roche: He was paid $100 in the
year 1913-14, so it must have been about the 1st of April, 1914, or before, that his salary was raised to $200.


George William Kyte: Has the minister found any Teason since for increasing the gentleman's *salary other than what he has stated ?


William James Roche: There are some agents who are paid less than this agent was receiving, but most of the -agents were drawing $100. There had been complaints, I am informed, from the province of Nova Scotia, that salaries generally were too low.


George William Kyte: Complaints from the agents ?


William James Roche: Including the agents, certainly; you cannot blame them for that.


William Chisholm: Not from the Indians ?


William James Roche: No. The opinion of the officers of the department was that the salaries of most of these agents in Nova Scotia were too low for present day conditions. While there are more Indians in some of these counties than in others for the agents to look after, the more deserving cases were considered, and in these cases it was found necessary to increase salaries.


George William Kyte: Why was not an increase made all round ?


William James Roche: Some cases were more deserving than others, and if we had done it all at once the hon. gentleman would have been the first to have criticised us for it. We must do it little by little, and probably next year, if we have more funds, we will look after the others.


George William Kyte: The other evening, when we were discussing the salaries of fishery inspectors, we found that salaries were increased all round except in the case of a fishery inspector who had run an election against my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), and that was the Teason why his salary had not been increased. Who are the Indian agents in Nova Scotia whose salaries have been increased since this Government came into power ?


William James Roche: That is rather a difficult matter to tell at the present moment. I can provide the hon. gentleman with a statement if he so desires.


George William Kyte: This is the time to have the statement. We are here considering the item of salaries of Indian agents in Nova Scotia, and one would have thought that this was the time to have this information.


William James Roche: We cannot anticipate all the questions that will be asked.


George William Kyte: These are questions that should appear obvious to the mind of the minister inasmuch as we are discussing salaries. The superintendent of Indian agencies, Mr. Boyd, lives within ten miles

of the Indian reserve of St. Peter's. I know as a matter of fact that a laTge portion of the duties that fall to the Indian agents in other parts of Nova Scotia are performed by the superintendent, and I think there is no justification whatever for having an Indian agent at St. Peter's in view of the fact that the superintendent is living so close to the reserve, and that his duties take him very frequently to the reserve for the purpose of looking after the interests of the Indians. Whatever excuse there might be for increasing the salaries of Indian agents in otheT parts of the province of Nova Scotia, there is no justification for increasing the salary of the agent at St. Peter's, for the- reason that a large proportion of the duties that would otherwise fall to him are discharged by the superintendent.
Mr, LAW: Would the minister give the committee a memorandum of the agents in the maritime provinces who receive ithe magnificent salary of $50 a year ?


William James Roche: There is only one other
agent in Nova Scotia who gets $50 a year.


Bowman Brown Law: Is it the intention of the minister to level up the $50 man to $100? Will the minister say where he is stationed?


William James Roche: The Indian agent in Shelburne county has $50, and there are only forty Indians there. In Yarmouth there are 54 Indians, and that is the reason why the salary is so low.


George William Kyte: In Shelburne there are 40 Indians, and the agent gets $50 a year, while in Hants there are 80 Indians, and there are two agents getting $100 a year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What are the names of the two agents in Hants?


William James Roche: Mr. Wallace and Mr. Stephens.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Where do they live?


William James Roche: One at Windsor and the other at Shubenacadie.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I suppose the minister knows that these are purely political appointments?


William James Roche: No, I do not know that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Then the minister does not need to inquire very far before he finds out. Throughout eastern Nova Scotia, where there are quite a number of Indians *-some 2,000-in a great many oases the Indian agent is the Roman Catholic clergy-83
man who lives in the vicinity of where the Indians are. He has always been the agent because, being spiritual adviser to these children of the forest, he is their natural guardian. That being so, it is an additional reason why there was no necessity of having a new superintendent. I know the agent in my county, who is a very worthy clergyman of the Roman Catholic church, and he has always been in charge of the Indians there. I know he does not need two superintendents over him to see that his treatment of the Indians is proper. It is absolutely and totally unnecessary. The minister says to the committee that personally he is not responsible. Of course, he has to assume the responsibility of what the roving minister may have done or what the Minister of Public Works may have done in his absence. There is a limit to this kind of thing. It becomes an absolute farce when we find the Government, within the last year and a half, hunting up excuses to find new offices. When you take into consideration the fact that in a great many cases the local agents are the clergy of whom I have
9 p.m. just spoken, the absurdity of the appointment of two men to supervise these agents becomes apparent. The minister ought to look into this matter with the view of seeing whether, if there is going to be any attempt at economy anywhere, he can get along with one inspector. The minister should look into this matter and see if this additional superintendent is necessary in view of the fact that there is nothing in the department to justify it and in view of the fact that the chief officer of the department is not quoted as favouring it.


George William Kyte: This is clearly a case where the necessities of the poor Indians are being exploited by politicians supporting the present Government in Nova Scotia, just as the necessities of the poor soldiers at the front are being exploited by dishonest contractors. That is all that can be said about it. That is the plain English of the whole story. I know a case in which an Indian on one of the reserves in Nova Scotia has haa a contract from the department to look after the fires in the Indian schools. He was getting thirty dollars a year for four or five years. A year ago he said to the superintendent: "In addition to making the fires I am supplying the wood which is burned in the school, and all I am getting is thirty dollars a year." The superintendent said: "You will have to speak to the agent"

13'4

and he did speak to the agent. The agent said: "The department has no money, and cannot afford to pay you more than thirty dollars for making the fires and supplying the wood; money is scarce now; the Indians are costing the country a great deal." Then he turned around and said: "Where do you spend the thirty dollars?" "The man mentioned the name of the merchant who supplied him with such necessaries as he was able to buy, and the agent said: "Why, that man is a Grit; do you think I would recommend you to get more money to spend at his store? You will have to be contented with thirty dollars."


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I presume there are quite a number of the Indians who are comfortably well off, and would not accept assistance from the department; is there available, information in the department to show how many of the Indians in Nova Scotia are indigent and require assistance?
' Mr. ROCHE: We can compile such a statement from the records of the department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are these 2,000 the entire number of Indians, or only those who are wards of the department?


William James Roche: That is the total Indian .population of the province.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Do I understand the minister to decline to look into the question as to the necessity for this official?


William James Roche: Not at all; I do not wish to leave that impression. I have no personal knowledge of the appointment of this gentleman, and if the facts are as stated by the hon. member for Pictou to-night, I have learned more than I have known before. I have no information supplied me as to who recommended the appointment or as to why the official was appointed. 1 naturally took it for granted he was appointed because there was necessity for such an official. I have no objection whatever to tell the hon. gentleman that I will make inquiries into the question of what duties he is discharging, and as to whether his appointment was necessary.
Indians, Nova Scotia; relief, $8,000.


George William Kyte: How is this relief distributed?


William James Roche: Relief was distributed in the counties of Annapolis, Guysborough, Antigonish, Cape Breton and Colchester, and for such articles as clothing, provisions, fertilizers, bags, lumber, seed grain, potatoes, shingles, window-frames, and so on.
[Mr. Kyte.J


Bowman Brown Law: The application for relief and seed grain has to come through the agent?


William James Roche: Yes.
Indians, Nova Scotia; medical attendance and medicine, $5,000.


George William Kyte: How are the doctors paid for their attendance on the Indians?


William James Roche: Some are paid by salary and others according to accounts rendered for medical service.


George William Kyte: Has there been any increase in this expenditure since the present Government came into power?


William James Roche: Very little. In 1914-15 it was $5,000 and in 1915-16 it is $5,000.


George William Kyte: What was it in 1912-13?


William James Roche: I have not the particulars for the expenditure of 1912-13, but in 1913-14 the expenditure was $6,000.


William F. Carroll: The Indian agent at Sydney is also the medical attendant?


William James Roche: Yes.


William F. Carroll: What salary does he get?


William James Roche: 


William F. Carroll: That does not include medicine?


William James Roche: Yes, it includes medicine.


Bowman Brown Law: Suppose an Indian calls in a doctor outside of their regular medical attendant, and that doctor sends a bill to the department, will the department pay the bill? .


William James Roche: Only in an unusual case
or in an emergency. As a rule, the doctor who is appointed is supposed to be called in by the Indians and he is paid by the department.


Bowman Brown Law: Cases of emergency might arise where the Indians would suffer greatly if they were not allowed to call in a physician outside of the regular medical attendant. Dr. A. 3. Deveau, of Meteghan, Digby county, had an account for $228.07 against the department for services rendered while he was in Halifax county and the department has declined to pay it. The minister being a physician, has, I suppose, faith enough in his profession to know that a medical man does not usually send a bill unless he has rendered services for it. I am satisfied>
in this case that Dr. Deveau has rendered services to the Indians for the amount of his account. I commend the

matter to the earnest attention of the minister, because I think there might be cases in which the Indians would suffer if the physicians called in by them are not paid for their services. I know Dr. Deveau personally, and I know he would not send in an account unless it was perfectly correct, and under the circumstances it is only fair that the department should pay it.


William James Roche: I will have the case looked into. I understand that this gentleman was not the regular medical attendant and that he acted without the assent or direction of the agent or the department. If we allowed that policy to. prevail as a rule, I am afraid we would be landed in a good deal larger expenditure than at present. I shall look into the case.


William Chisholm: Suppose
the regular medical man cannot attend to a case and he calls in another physician, would the department pay the substitute or would the regular physician have to pay him?


William James Roche: The doctor must pay out of his own salary.


William Chisholm: In every case?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Chisholm: That seems rather
hard.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I moved for a
copy of the papers in regard to the doctor employed to attend the Indians in my county. The correspondence disclosed that from somewhere unseen and unknown came the suggestion that Dr. J. McKenzie should not be any longer employed as doctor, and that some doctor from elsewhere should be employed, because it was said that Dr. McKenzie lived at Pictou and that Pictou was not the proper place for a doctor to reside at who was to wait upon the Indians. From time immemorial the different doctors who have attended those Indians have lived in the town of Pictou, the Indian settlement in the county being at Pictou landing where the white people as well as the Indians do all their business with the town, and a new settlement having grown up at a place called Sylvester, which is in close proximity to the town. There was therefore no reason for making the change on the ground of the necessity of the Indians being better treated. The Indians did not make any complaint; there does not appear to have been any request from 83*
the agent that the change should be made, and I do not think the idea came into the mind of the gentleman in charge of the Department of the Interior, without a suggestion from somewhere, that Dr. McKenzie's services should be dispensed with and another appointment made. By whom was the suggestion made to the minister?


William James Roche: The suggestion came to me from the officials of my department that Dr. McKenzie, who, I believe, was a resident of Pictou, was not as conveniently situated to the major portion of the Indians as a doctor would be who resided at New Glasgow.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The reports did not show that.


William James Roche: It was stated that most
of the Indians are on the New Glasgow side of the waterway, and that a doctor from Pictou would have to cross over-I do not know how far it is-10 miles?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No. It is less than a mile by the ferry.


William James Roche: I understand that the
ferry is not in operation during the nighttime, when frequently a doctor's services are required. The ferry would also be out of operation during a portion of the winter season. All that was pointed out to me, and that was the reason why a doctor at New Glasgow was appointed.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who suggested this to the officials of the department?


William James Roche: I cannot answer that question. I am not personally aware who made such a suggestion; nor do I think the question as to who made the suggestion is at all germane to the subject, as long as the facts warranted the appointment of a doctor at New Glasgow. The hon. member will admit that it is more convenient.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Absolutely not at all.


William James Roche: That was the case submitted to me, and it seemed a pretty good ' one.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I do not know who made out the case. All I can say is that some person who wanted to get Dr. Keith appointed wrrote a letter, which has not been brought down in the file, to the officials of the Department of uve Interior suggesting that a change should be made. Ever since Confederation the different doctors who have been in charge of these Indians have lived in the town of Pictou. I do not be-

lieve that any one interested in the lands *suggested that change. The Indians did not suggest it, arid there was no reason in the world why the officials of the department should bother their heads about this question unless somebody wanted Dr. McKenzie put out and Dr. Keith put in his place. The correspondence shows that Mr. Boyd made two reports, and that in the second one, which was full and complete and was made after the department had made the change of doctors, it was shown that the r more convenient place for the doctor to be in was the town of Pictou. All the people, both white and Indians, who live at Pictou landing, receive their medical attention at Pictou. I do not believe there is a doctor from New Glasgow who goes to Pictou Landing once a year. When paper's are moved for in this House, the minister should bring down the full information. I do not see why he should start off a return with the statement that the gentleman in charge of Interior affairs has suddenly received an inborn inspiration on a question, and why on that inspiration he should proceed to slide a doctor out. Such a procedure is neither reasonable nor proper. Such inspirations do not come without some mundane suggestion.


George Perry Graham: They do not work from t'he inside.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Dr. McKenzie succeeded his father, who succeeded another medical man who died. They all lived in the town of Pictou and they all attended the Indians perfectly satisfactorily. Who was it who put the little idea into the head of the gentleman in charge of Indian Affairs that the Indians were not being properly looked after? Before the department gets the second Teport from Mr. Boyd the necessity is so great that it dismisses Dr. McKenzie, without any allegation as to his qualifications or his politics. There was a certain gentleman named Dr. Keith who was greedy for the job, and certain friends of his, if they did not write a public letter, wrote a private letter suggesting that Dr. McKenzie should be dismissed. I think the rhinister should bring down that letter.


William James Roche: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The papers do not show any recommendation from the agent or from the inspector. Was not this done when you were away?


William James Roche: I do not think so.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think this case
must have slipped through in your absence.
Indians, Nova Scotia; miscellaneous and unforeseen, $4,300.


George William Kyte: There is a very considerable increase in this item over last year.


William James Roche: It is a transfer from one
account to another. It is in exactly the same position as the item of salaries for the Nova Scotia superintendents. This account was formerly charged up to another item. This year we are putting it in its proper place. It is only an apparent increase.
Indians, Nova Scotia; repairs to roads and diking, $600.


George William Kyte: Where was this money spent last year?


Mr. ROOHE:: Whycocomagh reserve, $300; Chapel Island, $220; Heatherton, $31; total, $551.
Indians, Nova Scotia; rebuilding Indian Council House, Chapel Island, $2,500.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is this for?


William James Roche: The mission house where the Indians are in the habit of congregating once a year was burned, and this is for the purpose of rebuilding it, the Indians not having sufficient funds of their own.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was the building which was destroyed built by the Government originally?


William James Roche: Yes.


George William Kyte: I think the hon. gentleman is mistaken.


William James Roche: It was built many years ago, and if not entirely built by the Government, the Government gave some assistance towards it.


George William Kyte: I commend the Government for this vote. I endeavoured, when the late

Government was in power, to get assistance for the Indians in building their new church, but that Government refused to make an appropriation. But while I commend the vote, I rather object to it being put through under false pretences. This is called a vote for an Indian council house. There is no such thing there as a council house and never has been. There is a very beautiful chapel on the island, built by the Indians with contributions obtained from the white people. There was also a residence for the priest who attends upon the Indians for about two weeks when they have their mission. This glebe house, as it is locally called, was destroyed by fire, and this vote, I understand, is to rebuild it. I am glad the vote is here; I think it a very commendable one as the Indians are not in good circumstances and the building of a new glebe house without assistance would involve very considerable sacrifices for them. -


George Perry Graham: What is the building to cost?


William James Roche: It is estimated at $2,500. There is a special room for a council room according to the plan. I think I remember that last session, when the Indian Department estimates were under consideration, some hon. gentlemen strongly urged that this vote should be made or commended one that was proposed.


William F. Carroll: The money was not
spent.


William James Roche: No, there was difficulty about the plans and the work has been delayed.


George William Kyte: Has an agreement been reached as to the character of the building?


William James Roche: The building is a story and a half high, and on the ground floor are council room, dining room, kitchen and bedroom.	.


George William Kyte: Has the work been commenced?


William James Roche: No.


George William Kyte: Is it intended to call for tenders?


William James Roche: That has not been decided upon. As is frequently the case in such buildings, the Indians have promised to do a good deal of work themselves and to supply a certain amount of material. Sometimes, by employing the Indians and paying them for their services and purchasing from them what material they can supply, we
find the work can be more economically done.


George William Kyte: What advantage is it to employ the Indians if you pay them as you pay anybody else?


William James Roche: It would be an advantage to the Indians.


George William Kyte: But not to the Government. I tell the minister now, in good time, that if he wants to avoid difficulty, he will call for tenders for this building. There is no reason why he should not do so. As he has stated, any assistance received from the Indians will be paid for, and there will be no advantage gained by the department in having the building put up by day's work. But he will be opening the door to very considerable trouble in that way. I think $2,500 is a very reasonable amount for such a structure as intended. It is a residence for the priest during the two weeks he is there giving a mission to the Indians. That is all it will be used for. I am glad it is being constructed, but I want it to be constructed in a manner that will not open the door for charges hereafter. There seems to be a certain laxity in the affairs in the minister's department in that region. In order to avoid that, and so that we may not come back at him next year with complaints as to the way this money was spent, I suggest to him, and earnestly advise him, to call for tenders.


William James Roche: The department has no objection to calling for tenders. It has not yet been decided.


George William Kyte: So frequently they are not called for. I am asking the minister to make a special note of this case.


William Chisholm: How many council houses are there now in Nova Scotia? How often do the councils meet? And would the minister give us some idea of the manner of opening a council and of the deliberations that take place?


William James Roche: We have no information on that subject.
Indians, New Brunswick; salaries, $1,984.


Pius Michaud: Is there any authority by which right can be given by the department or by the Indians to run a road across an Indian reserve?


William James Roche: That is quite often done. The department is prepared to allow road allowances across a reserve. In some cases

we have to secure a surrender from the Indians before the road can be run. The municipality or whoever is promoting the road can appeal to the Government on the subject either direct or through the Indian agent.


Pius Michaud: The proceedings are the same when municipalities or private individuals wish to run a road across a reserve?


William James Roche: No; private individuals are not allowed the privilege of expropriating.


Pius Michaud: Is it only in a case of expropriation that a road may be run across a reserve?


William James Roche: No, but a private individual cannot ask to have a road constructed across an Indian reserve and have his wish acceded to.


Pius Michaud: Provided the assent of the Indians was obtained, would the department be willing to permit individuals to run a road across their reserve?


William James Roche: It would largely depend upon the nature of the case. If the Indians had no objection, and a strong case were made out in favour of it, the department might be inclined to view the request favourably.


Arthur Bliss Copp: How many agents are there in New Brunswick?


William James Roche: Three.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The province is divided into three districts, I presume?


William James Roche: There are three districts, the south western division, the northern division, and Big Cove division, Kent county.


Arthur Bliss Copp: How does the Indian population of New Brunswick compare with that of Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: The Indian population of New Brunswick is 1,920. There is a difference of about 100 between the Indian population of New Brunswick and that of Nova Scotia.


Arthur Bliss Copp: There is a striking difference between the salaries paid to agents in the respective provinces. In Nova Scotia the salaries of agents amount to $6,200, while in New Brunswick they amount to only $1,984.


William James Roche: There are more agents in Nova Scotia.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Why?
IMr. Roche.]


William James Roche: There are more reserves and the reserves are more widely scattered.


Pius Michaud: Who has been appointed in the place of the late Mr. Irving?


William Roche: No appointment has been made.


Arthur Bliss Copp: There are two agents in New Brunswick, then, and one vacancy?


William James Roche: Yes.
Mr. A. Ii. MACLEAN: Would the minister allow this item to stand until the hon. member for Carleton, N.B., returns?


William James Roche: I will have some Supplementary Estimates; he may discuss it when they are brought up.
Indians, New Brunswick; relief, $8,000.


Pius Michaud: Who was the inspector in connection with the construction of a school-house at the Edmunston Indian reserve, and how much was he paid for his services?


William James Roche: The Auditor General's report does not give the name, but it states that he was paid $5 a week for fifteen weeks.


Pius Michaud: Was he inspector for the whole of the construction?


William James Roche: Yes.


Pius Michaud: The man who was appointed inspector knows absolutely nothing about cement work or about the construction of a building?


William James Roche: Was he not worth $5 a
week?


Pius Michaud: No, not even that,
because he does not know anything about the construction of a building. If the building is properly constructed, it is on account of the honesty of the contractor, not the efficiency of the inspector, because he did not know anything about his work.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is the distribution of this relief left entirely to the agent ?


William James Roche: The Indian himself makes application to the agent. The agent investigates the case and issues his order on the merchant for the relief.
Indians, New Brunswick; miscellaneous and. unforeseen, $850.


Pius Michaud: I believe that during the last two or three years a certain person has not only bought lumber from the Tobique reserve, but has obtained also the title to three or four lots on the reserve.


William James Roche: This is the case in respect of which the ho-n. member for Garleton -moved for a return a couple of weeks -ago. The information -has been brought down.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Are the Indian agents supposed to look -after the Indians all over the province, or only those -in the special reserves over which they have authority ?


William James Roche: The Indian agent has jurisdiction over all Indians, whether located on the reserve or otherwise.


Arthur Bliss Copp: On many occasions it has come to -my attention that there are isolated camps or families of Indians located here and there who are sometimes in destitution. I think -the -agents -should look after these people.
Indians, New Brunswick; repairs to roads, $458.


Pius Michaud: I do not understand
why so much money is voted for roads for reserves in the province of Ontario and so little for those in New Brunswick. Is this amount voted on the basis of population or of mileage?


William James Roche: It is voted by reason of
the necessity for the expenditure.


Pius Michaud: I think the amount
for New Brunswick is rather small. The roads through the Indian reserves down there are very bad. I know that last year the department spent a little money on them, but we should like more money spent this year.


William James Roche: There have been very few applications.
Indians, New Brunswick; to provide for encouragement of agriculture, $1,000.


William James Roche: This is to provide seed
grain and implements for Indians who may be in need of them. It has been found that the Indians require from time to time to have their implements implemented. This is not a very large amount.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I wonder whether this
amount is sufficient for the purpose. Has the Government ever taken into consideration the question of educating the Indians along agricultural lines so that they might learn to maintain themselves? In my county there are many Indians who are getting no assistance at all, but who are able to maintain themselves on little farms and, to a certain extent, educate their families. Instead of voting a small amount like this each year, should not something on broader lines be done, which would be
of lasting benefit to the Indians throughout the country.


Pius Michaud: It has given me great pleasure to see the Indian agent at Tobique giving a great deal of his time to educating the Indians in the science of agriculture. He has taught them how to sow and reap, how to keep their barns, how to whitewash their houses, and so on. Altogether this gentleman has done a great deal for the department, and I have received letters of congratulation in regard to him. Unfortunately he lost his job because he sided with the Liberals on reciprocity, and since then the Indians have gone back a great deal in agriculture. I think with my hon. friend from Westmorland that not sufficient money has been spent on the Indians in the last few years. 1 believe that if they were approached in a proper manner they could be taught to maintain themselves on the products of the reserves.
Indians, Prince Edward Island; salaries, $600.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: How many agents
have we in Prince Edward Island?


William James Roche: This item is to pay the
salary of the Indian Superintendent, the Rev. J. A. Macdonald, and of the Assistant Superintendent, Mr. J. O. Arsenault, whose salaries are respectively $400 and $200.
Indians, Prince Edward Island; medical attendance and medicines, $850.


James Joseph Hughes: How many doctors have we in Prince Edward Island?


William James Roche: Two, Dr. J. A. Stewart and Dr. E. G. Gillis.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories; implements, tools, etc., $11,893.


William Melville Martin: Could the minister give us a statement respecting the existing condition of affairs in regard to the surrender of the St. Peter's Indian reserve? The minister will remember that discussions on this subject have taken place in the House on several occasions.


William James Roche: All the information that I can give is that after tilts question came up last session I handed the case over to my colleague the Minister of Justice. I understand that he has instituted proceedings, but how far they have gone I am not sure. I understand that some negotiations have been going on between the purchasers of this land and the Department of Justice with a view to settling the matter outside

of court, but matters have gone so far now that witnesses have been subpoenaed, and it looks as if everything was ready for the case to be prosecuted . The case is at such a stage now that there need be little delay.


William Melville Martin: Can the minister
tell us what were the grounds for the commencement of court proceedings?


William James Roche: A commission of certain
judges was appointed in Manitoba to inquire into the validity of the surrender of this reserve, and the majority of that commission reported that the surrender was illegal. That, in essence, is the basis of the court proceedings.


William Melville Martin: Was the Commission appointed by the Dominion Government.


William James Roche: No, by the Provincial
Government. In view of that commission's report that the surrender was illegal, and in view of the case that was made out in this House a few years ago by the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) and other members, the Minister of Justice considered that we should not allow the case to stand at its present stage.


William Melville Martin: I have not seen very much about these court proceedings, but I presume the action would be brought in the Exchequer Court and would be for the cancellation of the patents if they had been issued by the Indian Department-and I think in a number of cases they had been issued-to men who had bought the land, not from the Indians, hut from the speculators in the Indian lands. How many actions have been brought by the Justice Department? Do I understand that an action has been brought, against a large number of the speculators?


William James Roche: Not being a lawyer, I am not very conversant with the legal aspect of the case, but I understand the court proceedings were to set aside the surrender. If the court decided that the surrender was illegal, that would make null and void all subsequent purchases under the surrender.


William Melville Martin: When did the Manitoba Commission report to the Manitoba Government?


William James Roche: I do not know the exact date, hut it may have been a year and a half ago.
[Mr. Roche. 1


William Melville Martin: So far as the present Dominion Government is concerned, then, I am correct in saying that apart from the action, whatever it may be, taken by the Justice Department, nothing has been done in the period of three and a half years since this Government came into office in regard to the surrender of the St. Peter's Indian reserve, a proceeding which was alleged by some members of this House some five or six years ago to have been outrageous. I think that is the correct assumption, is it not?


William James Roche: I do not know that it is quite correct; but if, during this time, we have not made a great deal of progress, it may be because the other party to the suit has wished to arrive at some settlement in order to prevent the case going into court. I think delay has been occasioned because of that fact.


William Melville Martin: Who is the other party to the suit?


William James Roche: There are many parties to the suit.


William Melville Martin: The position, Mr. Chairman, appears to be this, as far as the Dominion Government is concerned, nothing has been done in regard to the surrender of the St. Peter's Indian reserve, and nothing would have been done by this Government, judging from the conduct of the Government, had it not been that some action was taken by the Government of Manitoba. Just what this action was I am not in a position to say. I can only say, from rumours I have heard and from statements I have seen in the newspapers, that I understand that after this Government came into power the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) and other members who were interested in the matter, having lost hope of getting the present Government to do anything in regard to the surrender of this reserve, resorted to the Government of Manitoba, and that Government directed their registrar, in the proper registration district, to issue no titles on the patents that had been issued by the Department of the Interior, or upon any assignments of those patents. That is a subject for reasonable and fair criticism. We in the House of Commons, and in the committee of the House, had listened to the discussion of this subject, not by the hour, but by the day. I remember very well hearing speeches made by the hon. member for Selkirk in the session of 1909-10, and for two or three years afterwards, on this subject, which, in so far as length is concerned, excelled anything

that was ever heard in Parliament. All kinds of charges were made by the hon. member for Selkirk and other hon. members sitting on the Opposition benches at that time. If I remember correctly, the House was divided on a motion of want of confidence in the late Government in regard to the surrender of the St. Peter's Indian reserve. The former Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Mr. Frank Pedley, was charged with all sorts of maladministration in regard to the obtaining of that surrender. All these statements were contradicted by an affidavit made by Mr. Frank Pedley, and I predict that any legal proceedings in connection with the matter will result in leaving it exactly where it is. Delay on the part of this Government, and intervention on the part of the Government of Manitoba, at the instigation of the hon. member for Selkirk and perhaps others, have resulted in preventing the settlement of the land adjoining the town of Selkirk for a number of years, and, if I am correctly informed, there is very grave dissatisfaction existing in and around Selkirk in regard to the action of this Government and of the Provincial Government with respect to the holding up of the patents or the titles for these particular pieces of land, thereby preventing the land in and around Selkirk from being occupied by farmers and properly cultivated. During two or three years, almost every week, certainly at very short intervals, the matter of the surrender of the St. Peter's reserve was discussed, and discussed at length, on the floor of this House. For the last three or four years the hon. member for Selkirk, and the other hon. gentlemen who formerly discussed that question, have remained silent. Nothing has been said. I submit to the
10 p.m. Minister of the Interior that, considering the situation with respect to this land in and around Selkirk, action should be taken by the Government in order to hurry the settlement of this very vexed question, and action should be taken without delay.


Mr. BRADBURY:: My hon. friend (Mr. W. M. Martin) is not apparently very well informed. He stated that a commission had been appointed by the Manitoba Government after this Government had come into power.


William Melville Martin: The minister said that.
Mr. BRADBURY. You will remember that it was appointed before this Government came into power and it was appointed to deal with the question of title.


William Melville Martin: I was taking the word of the minister. -


George Henry Bradbury: That was simply done because the registrar general refused to accepted the patents and to issue titles on them. Then it was up to the Manitoba Government, in defence of its guarantee fund, to demonstrate whether that title was a good title or not, and the only way the Government could decide it was by appointing a commission. The Government appointed a commission of its own volition simply to protect the province. My hon. friend, who is a lawyer, knows that the - Torrens title carries with it the guarantee of title. When the outrageous manner in which this surrender had been made and the manner in which the Indians had been fleeced out of their holdings was pointed out to this House, the registrar of the province took -warning and refused to issue title on these patents. The consequence was that the Manitoba Government, in its own defence, appointed a commission of three of the most eminent judges in Manitoba. This commission sat and took evidence. There was a majority report and a minority report. The majority report declared that the surrender was illegal and that there was nothing to justify the issue of titles on this surrender. The consequence was that when my hon. friends were in power we asked the Government to remedy the evil that had taken place.


William Melville Martin: My hon. friend
does not mean to say that the commission reported before the late Government went out of office. The commission only reported eighteen months ago, according to the statement of the Minister of the Interior.


George Henry Bradbury: I think they reported before the Government went out of power, In 1911 the surrender took place and I pointed out in the House in 1908 and 1909 the character of the surrender and called the attention of the Government to it. It was in 1912 that the commission was appointed, I think.


William Melville Martin: The commission of judges.


George Henry Bradbury: The commission of
judges. However, I admit frankly that there has been an unnecessary delay in bringing matters to a settlement. The late Government were seriously to blame. The change

took place under the late Government and they ought to have rectified it. This question was handed down to this Government to deal with.


William Melville Martin: What has this Government done to deal with it?


George Henry Bradbury: I will tell you what
this Government has done. This Government has instituted a case in the Exchequer Court of the Dominion for the purpose of setting aside the surrender. I think there are 400 or 500 Indians involved, together with others who are purchasers, numbering 500 to 600 all told. The Exchequer Court has issued an order naming a certain number of gentlemen to accept service for certain groups, and the case is now ready for trial.


William Melville Martin: I understood from the minister that subpoenas had been issued for witnesses, but, according to the statement of the hon. gentleman, the position of the case is that some men have been appointed to accept service for certain groups. .1 presume that means to accept service of Ithe original process in the Exchequer Court, and, therefore, the ease has only commenced.


George Henry Bradbury: Every one of these men has been served.


William Melville Martin: Then what is the use of having the groups?


George Henry Bradbury: The men have been appointed to accept service and they have been served. The reason the case has not been proceeded with is that there have been some negotiations going on. The gentlemen who secured this land have been negotiating to have some settlement without going to court, and I confess frankly that in my own estimation I have done something I ought not to have done in the interests of justice to the Indians; I have asked the Government to accept a settlement from these men so that the case may not be dragged out in the courts for years. I believe to-day as firmly as I did when I made my statement on the floor of this House, that there was perpetrated on the St. Peter's Indians one of the greatest outrages that ever has been perpetrated on any body of men in Canada. There is no question about that. I have not made one statement on the floor of this House that I want to retract. My hon. friend refers to the charges I have made against the former Deputy Superintendent
!Mr. Bradbury. ]
General of Indian Affairs. My statement stands to-day just as strongly as it stood the night I made it on the floor of this House, and it is absolutely true. The charge was that he took with him into the meeting at which the surrender was to take place, 15,000, and he said to these Indians: If you vote for this surrender I will divide this $5,000 among you, and if you do not I will take it home and you will not get a cent. That is my statement, and that statement is absolutely true.


William Melville Martin: Is it not a fact that whatever was paid to the Indians on the day of the surrender was paid on account of the purchase price of the Indians' interest in the land?


George Henry Bradbury: This is what the Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs has said since.


William Melville Martin: Was not that a fact?


George Henry Bradbury: I believe it was a
fact. But, Mr. Chairman, the Indians did not understand it that way, and it was not explained to the Indians that way. The Indians understood he was giving that money for voting for the surrender. However, there is no use going into that discussion now. As I understand it, the Department of Justice has the case in hand, and at the very next sitting of the Exchequer Court we may expect it shall go to trial. The surrender is being attacked, and I understand that if the surrender is successfully attacked that that practically ends the case. But, Mr. Chairman, I enter my protest here that, that ought not to end this case. The men who are responsible for the outrage perpetrated on the St. Peter's Indians should be criminally prosecuted. There is no question in my mind about that. However, I will not press that part of it. As far as the town of Selkirk is concerned, the agitation that has been raised in that town through the press of the country has been paid for by the men who have been trying to get away with these Indian lands. There is no question about that. The quicker the case can go to trial the quicker it will satisfy me.


William Melville Martin: What settlement has been recommended to the Department of Justice?


George Henry Bradbury: I do not think there should be any secret about this thing and I do not intend to make a secret of it. There have been a good many offers made by these people. I have been approached my-

self more than once, but I was not approachable, and as it stands to-day I understand that the Government has agreed that if these people make a fair settlement, that the money to he paid into the Indian Department is to be distributed among the Indians pro rata. Just "what the amount is going to he, I am not in a position to say. Whatever the amount, it is to be arranged with the Indians and to be paid into the Indian Department to be put to the credit of the minister, I suppose, and distributed among the Indians. I understand there has been a very reasonable offer made to these men.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and west Territories; general expenses, $263,924.


George Perry Graham: How is that distributed?


William James Roche: The price of flour and
bacon, which constitute a large portion of the supplies given to the Indians, has increased. The estimate has been made as low as was thought proper.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: Does that mean that the Indians are all entitled to rations in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta?


William James Roche: No, this vote is entirely intended to meet the requirements of destitute Indians.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, surveys, $11,000.


George Perry Graham: I suppose every member of Parliament has some young man who is anxious to do surveying; how do you work that out on these Indian surveys?


William James Roche: There are a staff surveyor and two outside surveyors, and they get local assistants and employ some of the Indians. .
Sioux Indians, $6,418.


Mr. McCRANEY:: Will the minister explain this item? The Sioux Indians are not an indigenous tribe to this country. They had no land to surrender. I understand that there are some Sioux reserves. They cannot he in receipt of any treaty money, and I would like to know how this item comes in.


William James Roche: The Sioux Indians are not treaty Indians; but when they came into this country the Government treated them in the same way as we treat other Indians. There are agencies at Birtle, Portage la Prairie, Griswold, Assiniboine, Qu'Appelle, Carleton and Moose Mountain. These are the Sioux agencies where we give relief.


George Ewan McCraney: Are the Sioux Indians paid money at the same time that the other Indians receive their money?


William James Roche: They do not get any treaty money.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Northwest Territories; supplies for destitute, $143,465* $143,465.


William Ashbury Buchanan: What portion of the Blood Indian reserve is open for lease to individual farmers in the district adjacent to that reserve? A year or so ago a lease held by private concerns expired. In answer to a question that I asked, the minister stated that the lease had not been renewed, and that leases were being made to individuals at certain rates per year for stock. The idea amongst the farmers of the district is very strongly in favour of their being given an opportunity to graze their cattle and other stock on this reserve, if an arrangement can be made with the Indians. At first the Indians were favourable to it, but afterwards they expressed opposition to the idea. It has been stated that an official of the department, who was inclined to be friendly to the company who wanted a renewal of the lease, encouraged the Indians to oppose the idea of individuals in the district having an opportunity to secure leases on the reserve for grazing purposes, and favour the private company.
I believe it would be beneficial to the mixed farming movement in Southern Alberta if some arrangement could be made to lease this land to individual farmers on a permanent basis. Temporary leases have been granted, but a permanent policy should be adopted of leasing the reserve for grazing purposes to farmers in the immediate vicinity who at the present time do not possess sufficient land for grazing purposes and who can utilize the reserve in that way. The minister has had the matter before him in the past, and I would like to know if there is any possibility of a permanent policy in this direction being adopted and carried out.


William James Roche: When I was out West about a year and a half ago, a deputation of gentlemen waited upon me from the neighbourhood of that reserve and made representations such as my hon. friend has made here to-night, namely, to allow a number of settlers adjacent to the reserve to have free access to it and not to tie it up in any one lease. The deputation which appeared before me and advocated that policy, repre-

sented in the main, Mormons. Subsequent to that visit, I asked the chief inspector of Indian agencies to visit the reserve and to find out the will of the Indians. As far as my information goes, I do not think he attempted to stampede the Indians into any particular line of policy; hut he called a meeting of the Indians and put the whole question before them, 'and they expressed strong disinclination to allow the adjacent farmers access to their reserve. There was a lease in the name of a man named Mc-Ewan from Brandon, and Gordon and Ironsides had made an arrangement with him for the stocking of the reserve. That lease terminated about a year ago, and it has not been renewed. We are charging them $3 per head and are getting by that more than the Indians have been in the habit of getting under their own lease. We have not finally decided as to our permanent policy. There are many things to commend this policy suggested by my hon. friend, although it has been claimed by a great many who have made representations to the department, including the Indians, that there would be a good many practical difficulties in working out such a policy by reason of the mixture of the stock. Herdsmen would be required to keep the stock 'separate, and a good deal of trouble would arise between the different owners. The question has been surrounded by a good deal of difficulty and trouble; and inasmuch as the Indians are getting quite a revenue under -the existing temporary arrangement, we have not seen fit to disturb it. We are quite open, however, to take into consideration the suggestion of the hon. member. We have consulted the Indian inspectors; and they have consulted the Indians, and I understand that the great preponderance of the Indians present at the meeting were against that policy. I do not know whether that was their view at the outset or not, but I am sure the chief inspector would not be guilty of attempting to stampede the Indians into an opinion that they had not held in the first place.


Mr. WARNOCK:: How many head of stock are Gordon and Ironsides allowed to carry on the reserve ?


William James Roche: They can go to the limit of about 7,000.


David Warnock: How many are Maunsell Brothers allowed to carry on the Peigan reserve ?


William James Roche: About 1,000.


David Warnock: Has the lease been renewed to Maunsell Brothers ?


William James Roche: Yes, a five-year lease.


James McCrie Douglas: What is the amount of salaries included in this large miscellaneous item ?


William James Roche: 5147,250.


James McCrie Douglas: That is in the three provinces ?	.


William James Roche: Yes.


James McCrie Douglas: Is that an increase, or is it about the same as last year ?


William James Roche: There are no increases in this item at all.
Indians, B.C.; to provide for the expenses of the British Columbia Land Commission, including a payment of $1,400 for the service of Dr. J. A. J. McKenna, as one of the commissioners, $41,400.


William Melville Martin: What has been the total cost of that Land Commission?


William James Roche: About $108,000 to date.


William Melville Martin: They are still conducting that investigation?


William James Roche: Yes. British Columbia
pays half the expense.


William Melville Martin: Has any report been presented by the commission?


William James Roche: Yes, they have made three progress reports.


William Melville Martin: With any findings?


William James Roche: None except interim reports with reference to rights of way.


William Melville Martin: Who constitute the commission?


William James Roche: Mr. M. W. White, of Shelburne, N.S., is chairman and the other members are Mr. S. Carmichael, Montreal, and Dr. McKenna, and two appointed by the Government of British Columbia-Mr. J. P. Shaw and Mr. E. A. Macdowall.
Indian education, $984,115.


George William Kyte: Does this include Nova
Scotia?


William James Roche: Yes.


George William Kyte: Are these schools inspected by the public school inspectors?


William James Roche: I understand that Indian schools in all the provinces are inspected by the public and separate school inspectors.


George William Kyte: Can the minister speak definitely as to Chapel Island Reserve in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: Not specially, but I understand the rule applies there also.


George William Kyte: I understand that two years ago the school inspector of the district objected to performing the duty of inspection of this school on the ground that while he had influence over other teachers the teachers in this school were not employed according to the provisions of the public school law, and that competent teachers were dismissed and partisans appointed in their places. Unless the department changed its policy in this respect he would not undertake the inspection. Has the minister had any communication with that gentleman recently?	.


William James Roche: There have been no communications to that effect during recent times.


George William Kyte: As a matter of fact, for the reasons I have given the inspector of schools in that district has not been inspecting the Indian schools in the Chapel Island Reserve. What report has the minister received as to the work of the school on that reserve?


William James Roche: If there is any report as to that particular school I will lay it on the table. I do not know the nature of any report on the subject that may be in the department.


George William Kyte: Has the minister the information before him that would enable him to state to the committee the salaries of the different school teachers in the Indian schools in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: They are as follows:
Afton, Antigonish	$ 400
Bear River, Digby	 400
Kskn.soni. Cape Breton	 450
Halfway River, Cumberland (white
school attended by Indian children...	50
Indian Cove, Pictou		360
Malagawatch, Inverness	 300
Middle River, Victoria	 500
Millbrook, Colchester	  400
New Germany, Lunenburg	 400
Salmon River, Richmond	 350
Shubenacadie, Hants	 400
Sydney, Cape Breton	 400
Tufts Cove, Halifax	 300
Whycoeomagh, Inverness	 500
Total salaries, day schools	$5,210


George William Kyte: Does the department insist
on properly certificated and licensed teachers being employed in these schools?


William James Roche: It is the aim of the department to employ such teachers, but in some counties it has been difficult to find a qualified and certificated teacher, and in such places we have to put up with the best we can get. There are in some schools, I understand, teachers not qualified under the provincial law, but it is the rule to have certificated teachers where possible.


George William Kyte: Does the minister remember any case in Nova Scotia where a properly licensed teacher was dismissed and an unlicensed and unqualified teacher engaged to fill her place?


William James Roche: I remember that there was something of that kind referred to a year or two ago. I do not recall the particular case, but I do remember the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kyte) discussing it.


George William Kyte: I may say, to remind the minister, that if they have unlicensed teachers in some schools it is the fault of his department, if not his own fault. The case to which I have referred is a case where a properly qualified and thoroughly efficient teacher was dismissed.


William James Roche: There were reports in the department against her.


George William Kyte: There were reports very much in her favour. The Superintendent of Indian Agents reported that she was one of the most competent girls in the district; and the inspector of schools reported to the same effect, and one reason why he refused to inspect the school was because a competent licensed teacher was dismissed and an unlicensed teacher employed in her place.


Mr. MURPHY:: I think the hon. minister was going to give the hon member for South Renfrew some information regarding the progress that has been made in the matter of Indian education.	[DOT]


William James Roche: The boarding schools are
maintained by the Government on the basis of a per capita grant. The maximum per capita grant is given to those schools in jvhich capital expenditure has been made by the churches, where the buildings are thoroughly modern and well equipped. The minimum per capita grant is given to those schools in respect of which the department has furnished capital expenditure, or where the churches furnish capital, but have not erected buildings which could be classed as modern and well equipped. The boarding schools are divided into three divisions:

eastern, western and northern. The eastern division is given $80 and $100 per capita, the western division, $100 and $125 and the northern division $125. These divisions are subdivided into three classes. Class A represents institutions where modern and well-equipped buildings are owned by the church authorities; class B represents institutions where first-class buildings are owned by the Government, and class C represents buildings which might be termed second-class, and which are own sd by church authorities The number of schools is as follows:
Day.	Boari ing.	Indus trial	TotalOntario	82	7	4	93Quebec	29	29Nova Scotia	15	15New Brunswick	12	12Prince Edward Island.	1	1British Columbia.. ..	45	10	8	63Manitoba	43	7	2	52Saskatchewan	19	13	2	34Alberta	4	18	2	24Northwest Territories.	1	3	4Yukon	5	i	6Totals	256	59	18	333
Payments of Indians surrendering their lands under provisions of section 89 of the Indian Act, which will afterwards be repaid from the avails of the lands, $25,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How much was paid out under this vote? What amounts were advanced to the Indians, and in what cases?


William James Roche: A total of $44,895, to the Sarcee, Stony reserve, Fort Francis and Cote Indians.
Relief to destitute Indians in remote districts, $60,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is that intended for?


William James Roche: This vote is intended to meet accounts which were incurred in the Northwest Territories, Northern British Columbia, and in the Ungava district of Quebec. No estimate for these districts is included under the provincial headings. As the destitution is often severe, and the cost of provisions high, it is necessary to vote this amount to meet the expenditure in this connection. Frequently the Indians in Northern Ontario and in part of Northern Quebec suffer extreme hardships owing to the failure of the fur trade in these districts.


James McCrie Douglas: There is a large increase this year.


William James Roche: Because of the effects of the war upon the fur trade, the Hudson Bay Company and their traders have anounced that they are compelled to limit to a considerable extent their purchases of furs from the Indians, who will consequently be deprived of their means of obtaining supplies. The department will be called upon to aid them in order to relieve their suffering.


James McCrie Douglas: I believe the destitution among the Indians in the far North is very severe; I presume the minister has had communications along that line.


William James Roche: Our information is that they are coming through the winter very well- much better than had been anticipated.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What was paid out of this vote last year?


William James Roche: 

Indians, general: to prevent spread of tuberculosis, $10,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is that amount the usual vote?


William James Roche: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How is it usually expended?


William James Roche: Sometimes it is more than expended. In 1913-14 $9,000 was expended, and for the five months ending September 30, 1914, nearly $3,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What means does the department take to see that this amount is properly expended?


William James Roche: The vote is intended to provide hospital treatment for those who can avail themselves of it. In many cases the residences occupied by tubercular patients have to be destroyed and a grant made towards their re-construction. We expended last year upon those in hospitals, $1,800.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How was the remainder of the vote expended?


William James Roche: Special supplies, extra
medical attendance, etc.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the department any knowledge as to what proportion of the Indian population is affected by tuberculosis? Is it a large proportion?


William James Roche: It is rather difficult to get at the exact proportion. It is a very prevalent disease among the Indians, and I should say that probably more than 50 per cent of them are infected.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In wliat parts of the Dominion?


William James Roche: In all parts.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Could any of our Indians in the maritime provinces be sent in a proper case to the provincial sanitarium at the expense of the department?


William James Roche: They can be sent there, certainly.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Have any been sent there from the eastern provinces?


William James Roche: I think not.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Where has the main expense been?


William James Roche: In the West, and quite an expenditure in Ontario.
Indians, general: printing, stationery, etc., $5,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How is that divided
up?


William James Roche: Prince Edward Island, 57 cents; Nova Scotia, $16.43; New Brunswick, $23.23; Quebec, $78.58; Ontario, $955.83; Manitoba, $442.19; Saskatchewan, $688.52; Alberta, $348.35; British Columbia, $363.46.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is a small total?


William James Roche: It is nearly $3,000. Then there is postage, express, freight, school supplies, binding, printing, lithographing, which amounts to nearly $2,000.
Indians, general: grant to assist Indian Trust Fund Account 310, suppression of liquor, $3,000.


William Melville Martin: What does this mean?


William James Roche: This amount is intended to assist the account of the Indian trust fund, which receives credit of the moiety of all fines imposed and bears the expenditure of the preventitive, detective and police services in furthering the policy of the department in carrying out the law to prevent the illegal sale of liquor to the Indians.
Mr. A1ACDONALD: Is that refunded to the department?


William James Roche: Yes, I have an abstract here of the revenue for 1913-14:
Revenue for year 1913-14.
Balance from. 1912-13. . ..$ 6,562 38 Fines and costs collected.. 10,904 22
Government grant	 9,000 00
" interest . .	..	196 87

Expenditure for year 1913-14.
Salaries for constables and
detectives	$6,706	71Services and expenses of regular constables .. . .	2,098	50
Services and expenses of
irregular constables.. ..	2,844	78Legal services	
1,259	27
Supplies for lock-ups,
handcuffs, etc	
101	12Moieties paid to informers. '[DOT] 21 00 Fines and costs refunded..	137	97Miscellaneous	
507	11
13,976 46
Unexpended	$12,687 01


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What is to the credit of that fund now?


William James Roche: Last year there was unexpended $12,687.01.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If there is that much to the credit of the fund now, why should it be necessary to vote an additional amount? Why not cut this amount out this year?


William James Roche: We have reduced the
amount.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I know, but unless
the minister expects a large expenditure this year this vote is not necessary.


William James Roche: It is difficult to tell what the revenue will be.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The revenue will depend on the successful prosecutions.


William James Roche: Last year we spent $13,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: But then you had a large revenue.


William James Roche: Yes, we had $26,000, but we cannot estimate to a nicety what the revenue will be this year.
Indians, general: to provide for expenses in connection with epidemic of smallpox and other diseases, $10,000.


Mr.  A. K. AIACLEAN@: On what basis do you estimate the expenditure for the coming year to be $10,000? Is that based on the experience of the department?


William James Roche: Yes, we spent over $13,000 last year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The expenditure Is accounted for by doctor's accounts?


William James Roche: It is under a number of
different headings. Quarantine, for instance, is one item, and to enforce a strict quarantine on the Indians is a somewhat difficult matter, and very expensive.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do those medical attendants receive a yearly stipend?


William James Roche: They are the regular medical attendants, and have often to call in the provincial health authorities.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What expenses under
that item were made in Nova Scotia last year?


William James Roche: None at all; there was no smallpox there.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It need not necessarily be smallpox.


William James Roche: Oh, no; scarlet fever or any disease of an epidemic or contagious character; but you were remarkably healthy down there last year.


James McCrie Douglas: Amongst what Indians is this money spent?


William James Roche: Among the Caughnawaga,
the Chippewas and the Lorette Indians. Then, we had to spend a large amount last year in connection with the smallpox on Manitoulin island.
Indians, surveys: Ontario, Quebec and Maritime provinces, $3,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What is the explanation of that?


William James Roche: This item is intended to ' provide for the subdivision of the Pays Plat Indian reserve in Ontario, the re-survey of the disputed limits of the Big Hole tract in New Brunswick, and of the Whycocomagh reserve in Nova Scotia. The vote also provides for any unforeseen and necessary surveys in re-marking the boundaries of Indian reserves in the older provinces.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How long have these surveys been going on?.


William James Roche: For some years.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In this particular case or in otheT cases?


William James Roche: No, these are new and will be completed this year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who disputes, these boundaries?


William James Roche: The resident settlers on the borders of the various reserves.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are you having any litigation about them?


William James Roche: I do not know that we have had any litigation, but it frequently happens that lines are overgrown and obliterated and

it is necessary to remark them. Those on the adjacent territory are the persons who make the requests.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Do you not think that might stand for a year?


William James Roche: It is not a very large item.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Every little makes a muckle, and there are a lot of little ones.
Progress reported.
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.
Tuesday, March 23, 1915.
The .House met at Eleven o'clock, toe Speaker in the Chair.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 82, respecting the Patent of the National Wood Distilling Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 83, for the relief of Lottie Thorndike.-Mr. Boyce.
Bill No. 84, for the relief of Arthur Ernest Birdsell.-Mr. Michael Clark.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. J. Roche (Minister of the Interior), the House went into Committee, Mr. Sevigny in the chair, to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to provide that the Governor in Council shall have power to provide for the purchase, sale and distribution, during the year 1915, among such farmers and settlers in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan as apply for the same, of seed grain, fodder for animals, and other goods, by way of relief, in such quantities and upon such terms as to the taking of security for the repayment of the cost of seed grain, fodder and other goods by way of relief so supplied, as shall appear necessary or proper, and that the agreement dated the eighteenth day of February, 1915, between the Minister of the Interior, on behalf of the Dominion of Canada, and the Hon. George A. Bell the Provincial Treasurer on behalf of the Government of Saskatchewan and the agreement dated the thirteenth day of February 1915, between the Minister of the Interior on behalf of the Dominion of Canada, and the Hon. Arthur L. Sifton, on behalf of the Government of Alberta, relating to the means by which such seed grain, fodder for animals, and other goods by way of relief may be furnished, and that any action heretofore taken by the Governor in Council or by any department of the Government of Canada during the years 1914 and 1915 to provide the said farmers and settlers with seed grain, fodder for animals or other goods by way of relief, be approved, ratified and confirmed.
William Melville Martin: Will the minister please state the main terms oi the agreement referred to as having been entered into between this Government and the provincial governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta?


William James Roche: The terms are the same in each case. The agreement provides t/hat liens to be taken against the land for the advance of seed grain shall be given priority over existing liens, the provincial governments to introduce legislation to that effect. That has already been done by the legislature of Alberta, and we have the agreement of the Saskatchewan government that a similar Act will be passed in that legislature. We are to be given a prior lien also for the relief of other than seed grain. That is the agreement in essence. Of course, in the Bill to be introduced based on this resolution there is a schedule containing the agreement.


William Melville Martin: I understood that there was some difference in the agreements entered into with the two provinces, that the province of Alberta had gone a little farther with respect to agreeing to pass legislation giving this Government a first lien upon lands for the supply of seed grains. My idea of it was that in Alberta they had agreed to pass legislation giving a first lien not only for seed but for certain classes of feed.


William James Roche: That was included in both agreements.


William Melville Martin: Then, are we to understand that before it would agree to advance any seed grain outside the restricted area spoken of, and even inside that restricted area, the Dominion Government insisted on the provinces passing legislation giving this Government a first charge upon land to the extent of the value of the seed grain advanced?


William James Roche: I do not know that this is the term to apply-that this Government " insisted." Of course, the Dominion Government wished to have sufficient security, because we are dealing with a vast amount of the funds of the people of' Canada. As the hon. gentleman knowis, in 1908 the late Dominion Government would not go even this far. The arrangement made on that occasion was that they would only advance seed grain to holders of unpatented land, inasmuch as this Parliament had not jurisdiction over the patented lands. The provincial Governments borrowed the money from the Dominion at five per cent and 84	.
themselves took the first lien against the land. We are taking the same 'Security that they took in 1908, and we are dealing with both patented and unpatented lands, because both provincial governments consider that the extent of the crop failure last year was beyond their coping with. We therefore ask the provincial governments to place us in -a similar position to that which they occupied as to security in 1908.


William Pugsley: Do I understand that it is a condition of the agreement to advance money to buy 'seed grain that the charge of the Dominion Government shall be a first lien upon the patented lands, ahead of the mortgages ?


William James Roche: Yes, the same as the provincial governments had.


William Pugsley: And without the consent of the mortgagees ?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Pugsley: I do not think that was done in 1908. The Government then was only dealing with unpatented lands.


William James Roche: The provincial governments dealt with patented lands.


William Pugsley: With all deference, I think this is 'an entirely improper thing to do. It does 'seem to me that if a man or a company has lent money upon patented lands and taken 'Security upon those lands, it is a most extraordinary step to pass legislation which will wipe away that first lien and place another lien ahead of it. It may be said that it is for the advantage of the property and the improvement of the security which the mortgagee holds upon the land, but it seems to me contrary to every precedent of justice for the Legislature to intervene and put a lien ahead of an existing mortgage. Now, it does seem to me that where the conditions in the West are such as to require this Government to step in and grant relief, the Government might very well expect that on unpatented lands the loans should be made a first Charge upon the property; Because until the land is patented the homesteader cannot properly execute any encumbrance upon the property. That would be all right in respect of unpatented lands, but it seems to me that the Government ought simply to take a lien upon the interest that the owner of the property has in patented lands, unless the mortgagee or other person holding the encumbrance became a party to the agreement. Another objection arises out of that: it will tend to dis-



courage the lending of money to farmers in the West if the money-lender realizes that in case there is a bad harvest, a failure of crops, the legislature, by agreement with this Government, will step in and interfere with the first mortgage or lien that the mortgagee may have upon the property. He would be very doubtful as to the value of his security, and very reluctant to lend money in a country where the legislature, with the consent and approval of this Government, will so interfere with rights which have already been acquired, with mortgages already registered, and which give first liens upon the property. While disposed to favour to every possible extent the granting of the aid which is proposed, believing as I do that it is a step in the right direction entirely justified from every standpoint, I myself think it most unwise legislation to interfere with such rights without the consent of those in whom they are vested.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. member for St. John apparently does not fully realize the conditions under which this proposal is put forward, nor is he familiar with the practice which has prevailed in such matters in the past. As I understand, his remarks are addressed altogether to the question of the patented lands. The provision of seed grain for occupants of such lands has Ihitherto been dealt with by the provincial governments, and, presumably, those governments, being acquainted with local conditions, the requirements of the people and everything that makes for the best interests of all concerned, would be in at least as good a position to estimate the desirability of a measure of this kind as my hon. friend or any other hon. gentleman in this House. They are pursuing precisely the same course and adopting the same methods that they did under similar circumstances in the past. The Government would be very glad if the companies already holding first liens upon the lands would advance these amounts themselves; and, if any one of them desired to do so and to add the amount so advanced to its security and relieve the Government to that extent, I am sure there would be no possible objection to that course being pursued; but we have not observed any desire on the part of the companies to take that course, and the measure which is being proposed by the Minister of the Interior is one which it seems to me is in the interest not only of those who own the lands, but also of those who hold liens upon them. If these lands are left without provision for seed every one will

realize that the natural result will be a serious and unnecessary loss, not only to the owners of the lands, but also to the companies or other persons who hold liens upon them. This is a measure designed to make the land productive where otherwise it would not be productive. It is very likely that the crops for the coming year will be so ample as to justify most amply the aid which the Government proposes to give. My hon. friend proposes that the Government should make its security subsequent to that which already exists upon the land. I see no reason why that course should he taken, because this is eminently not only in the interest of the land owner, but of the lien holder as well. My hon. friend desires that we should take into account the interest of the lien holder; he should also remember that we are bound to take into consideration the interest of the land owner, the settler, and it is in the interest of the settler that this money, provided for a specific purpose, in order to make the land productive, should be a first lien upon the land itself; as, if this money were not advanced, the land, for this year at all events, would probably be useless, and a foreclosure of the mortgage would be forced, which would result in a loss to the owner of all his interest in the land. No one desires to interfere more than is absolutely necessary with vested rights, hut my hon. friend knows that under certain conditions of the law, the law relating to shipping, for example, the man who makes the last advance for the purpose of saving property and preserving it to the owner has the first lien, and this is very much on the same principle. We think that the Government ought to have the first lien because the money that the Government advances not only preserves the property for the land owner himself, but makes the lien of the mortgage holder secure as it otherwise would not be secure. Under the circumstances, it is easy to see that it is not only reasonable but absolutely desirable that the money advanced for this purpose should be the first lien on the land, because it is not only to preserve his interest in the land to the land owner, but to maintain the security of the lie'n holder and to make that land productive for the present year when otherwise it would not be productive.


William Pugsley: It seems to me that the illustration given by my right hon. friend of the case of the party who salves a vessel or cargo having a first lien is not applicable.

Sir ROBERT BORDENI was not referring to salvage.


William Pugsley: My right hon. friend
was referring to instances where the law which is invoked has been the law of the land for years, and therefore persons who may lend money upon vessels or upon cargoes lend it with the knowledge of the existing law and all rights that may intervene. That would be like this case if there were a law upon the statute book, not made retroactive in its character, but existing, which provided that in case at any time the Government should lend aid to settlers that would be a first lien upon the property. If that were the law, then any person taking a mortgage or security of any kind upon the property would take it with a knowledge that that was the law, and that his rights might be cut down to that extent in the future. However, that is an entirely different case. People who have lent money to settlers-and we know that there are vast sums loaned by companies in Eastern Canada more especially-have done it under the existing law, knowing that when they did it they would receive by means of their conveyance a first mortgage upon the patented lands of the mortgagor. Now it is proposed to change the law. It is practically proposed to lend money to the settler, and for that loan to take a lien ahead of the mortgage which the money lender has taken in good faith; and this mortgage of the money lender may represent the security of widows and orphans in the East, who are very largely interested in trust and mortgage companies. But the Government's lien is to come ahead of all existing encumbrances. When my hon. friend the Minister of Finance spoke early in the session of what he proposed to do for the farmers of the West, I thought this Government was going to do something for which they would deserve the credit of the people of this country, and more especially of the people in the West. But to-day I find that they are exacting the pound of flesh. They are going to charge the settler five per cent upon the money they advance for the purpose of- securing seed grain, and they are going to say to him and everybody interested in his land: In addition to that, we are going to take a first mortgage upon your property irrespective of what other claims there may be against it. Now that is not doing very much for the settler. It does not recognize to a very great extent the extraordinary condition of affairs which exist in the West, and which calls for this 84J
relief. My right hon. friend says that this is a benefit to the western country. I grant that, but is it not also a benefit to the whole of Canada that as large a crop as possible should be raised during the coming year in our western country? Is not that in the interests of the whole people of this country, and especially at this time when the Mother Country looks to Canada to supply bread stuffs for the Empire during this war? And yet the Government is approaching this question just as a money lender or almost a Shylock would, and is demanding the last dollar of security, and the very highest security which can possibly be given by the settlers in our western country. They are taking a step which is going to destroy credit, and which is going to prevent eastern loan and trust companies from investing in the West. This Government may say that they are helpless because of the action of the Governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan; but that action was taken _ because this Government insisted on it as a condition of granting this relief. I say this is going to unsettle conditions in the West so far as credit is concerned, and it is something which this Government ought not to insist upon. My right hon. friend says I am not familiar with the method of dealing with these things in the past. I grant that, but I know that when this party was in power previously to 1896, the Government of that day, when there was distress in the West and need for seed grain, did not insist on taking a first lien upon the property. I know that the Government advanced seed grain to the settlers, took as security a bond, with one or two sureties which were satisfactory to them. That is the course that was pursued along in the eighties to my own personal knowledge; at that time no such extraordinary demand was made as this Government is now making.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Were those loans to
farmers on patented lands?


William Pugsley: I do not know, but I
presume not, because in the early days of settlement there was very little land that was patented. But I should think that, if a Government was prepared to lend seed grain to homesteaders on unpatented land, they would be more willing to lend to the owners of patented land because the security would be so much better. That was the course adopted along in the eighties, but I submit that the doctrine of this Government of trampling upon vested rights, of

setting aside first securities, and doing that without so much as asking the mortgagee for his consent, and of taking away the first lien which he has upon the property, I submit that that is entirely unjustifiable. I do not think this Government can shelter itself behind the fact that the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan are willing to pass this legislation. If they are willing to pass it, I am sure they are doing it simply because of the condition of affairs in the West, and because they have found that this Government would not grant relief unless such legislation were passed.


Arthur Meighen: The only two classes concerned in the subject of this discussion are the mortgagees and the Government representing the people of Canada. It would be impossible for any hon. member to pretend that, in asking the Government to take less security, he represents in any way the desire or interest of the farming community. The farmers of the West would be no better off if they gave a second or a third or a fourth encumbrance on their land instead of a first. To them it makes no difference whatever. Their interest is to get the seed grain, and-to protect themselves and their creditors. There are two classes: The Government of Canada, and the mortgagees, the moneyed interest; and the House will note with very considerable interest that when the interests of these two classes apparently clash the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) is the champion of the moneyed interests. It is not long since he was on the other side of the fence, when he found very serious fault with this Government for being so closely allied to the interests of big finance. . Aside from that, I am not one who would argue that we should by reason of any contingency whatever do an injustice to mortgagees, any more -than to any other class; but I take the ground that this is doing them justice in every sense of the word, and that it is of great benefit to the farmers, and at t'he same time no more than justice to the *Government representing all the people of this country. We insist on a first lien on the land. We are charged with sheltering ourselves behind the actions of the governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta, in that they agreed to giving us a first lien, and we are designated Shylocks because we ask for it. The hon. member for St. John forgets that in 1908, when we loaned these governments money, they themselves passed legislation operating over their own

respective provinces and taking to themselves this first lien ahead of all other mort-.gages; so that if we are in the Shylock class we have at least a precedent in the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan in 1908. More than that; in 1908 the government of Saskatchewan made loans to the farmers on the security of a first lien. They also took security on the crop. They stated that their loan was to be ahead not only of .all mortgages but of all taxes, ahead of any charge that any one could place against the land. But the government of Alberta-and I do not know whether my hon. friend is aware of this-went farther than that. They made their loan a first charge against the land in every respect as to present and future encumbrances, and also took to themselves the power of collecting this money by taxation, and of enforcing the collection of this money over and above any other debt that the farmer might have Charged against his land or otherwise. That is how they collected the money. Year by year taxation was the enforced method of payment, and operated by that government against the farmers of the province; and I do not know that any fault was found with that, even by mortgagees. But what I am trying to impress on the hon. member for St. John is this: we do not in any way seek shelter behind the action of the governments of Saskatchewan or Alberta, or behind the action of any government or any party. We have, though, the precedent of the action of these governments when there was no compulsion whatever-whether there be compulsion now or not-when they acted of their own free will, and in their wisdom were governed by the conditions of their own provinces and by no other conditions.
It is argued that because we take a first lien on the land we interfere with outside rights-the rights of mortgagees. My right hon. friend the Prime Minister pointed out very clearly that the principle is analogous in every way to the principle which gives priority to the one who comes in as the last insurer of a cargo and thus takes the last and greatest risk. The hon. member for St. Jolhn argued that inasmuch .as we have not had legislation on the statute book enabling us to get this first lien the mortgagees did not contemplate such an Act and consequently that we should not pass it. 1 may be wrong in my common law, as I have not read the point for some time, but I have a recollection that it was the common law before there was any statute that the

party Who came in as the last insurer got the first lien.


William Pugsley: On what class of property?


Arthur Meighen: On property insured on the sea.


William Pugsley: We are not dealing with property on the sea.


Arthur Meighen: It was recognized hy the courts, aside from the statute, as a matter of common justice and it is the same to-day. How can the mortgagee complain?


William Pugsley: If my hon. friend says that it Is the common law or that the Government has a first lien to secure the advance of seed grain I am with him.


Arthur Meighen: I am arguing that the courts of justice decided that it was a matter of common justice to give the last insurer priority and, if it was common justice then, common justice is eternal. It does not vary with the years.
The mortgagee has a Tight to obviate this lien if he wishes.	He has the
right to come in and do what we are doing. We will only he too glad to let him do it. What is his complaint? Would it be better for him that we should let the land, the farmer and the country go? No, he is better off by what we are doing. I admit that it would be better still for him if we took a second, third or fourth mortgage and came in on top of a great many encumbrances but it would be an injustice to the whole people of Canada, because the whole people of Canada have no right to be called upon to lend money on such security as that.
I want to draw attention to another feature of the Bill. The Bill takes other security, which also was taken by the provincial governments in 1908; that is security on the crop. I do not know that this is thoroughly understood, but I can very briefly state the position. We get security as to the land, for all we advance, but we get priority only as to seed grain and fodder for animals. We get no priority as to other relief. As to other relief we simply come on top; that is a matter as to which we get no priority at all. As to advances for seed grain and fodder for animals we get priority entirely.
But on the crops we have priority, a first lien as to all advances. The Government would, therefore, be in a position if the circumstances warranted it, to
relieve the mortgagees at as early a date as possible, by realizing, where-ever possible. I believe it will be the desire of the farmers to be released from these obligations, wherever possible, and thus restore the conditions which by necessity are somewhat dislocated by the legislation.


Edmond Proulx: Did the governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta ask this Government to loan them money, and offer to deal directly with the farmers?


William James Roche: They voluntarily offered
the legislation, but they did not apply to borrow money in the way they did in 1908. As a matter of fact, they refused to do as they did in 1908. They did not wish to have anything to do with the collection, but they volunteered the legislation that is now being enacted.


David Warnock: I am in favour of this legislation. I believe it will be welcomed by the mortgagees. Many of the mortgagors have not even paid their interest, and if these farmers are not assisted this year the mortgagees would have to take a great deal of land that they do not want. I do not quite understand the hon. the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) in what he says with respect to liens on fodder and other supplies. Does the Government say that it will have a first lien for money advanced for provisions?


Arthur Meighen: No, not on the land. We get a first lien for money advanced for seed grain and fodder for animals on the land; but we get no first lien on the land for relief.


David Warnock: Do you get a first lien on the crop ?


Arthur Meighen: As to the crop, we get a first lien for everything.


David Warnock: The only objection I see is that it will interfere with any advantage the settlers might otherwise get from the amendment to the Bank Act, which was introduced by the hon. the Minister of Finance a few days ago.


Arthur Meighen: No.


David Warnock: The settler who has received fodder for his animals and provisions and who has been too late in applying for seed grain, cannot then apply to the bank because the bank will not advance him money for seed grain unless ia first lien is given to the bank on the crop. There are a great many settlers who did not apply in time. I am getting letters every day from settlers who did not file their application

and who have been refused on the ground that they were too late in applying.


Arthur Meighen: The point of the hon. gentleman i<s that in many cases in the drouth-stricken districts, where a farmer has been compelled to ask for relief and that relief has been given, the Government lien is a first charge, and consequently, if he applies to the, hank, he cannot get an advance because the bank cannot get a first lien. That may be 'correct, but I do not think that when a settler is in the position that he has been compelled to get relief from the Government, he will not be able to get a loan from the bank anyway, even for seed grain. It may be that the effect that the hon. gentleman described would actually take place, but it is a very remote contingency that it may take place, because such a man could not get relief from the bank. He would get relief here.


David Warnock: Some settlers did not get their lands ready for seed, and their applications were rejected on that ground. Others did not apply in time. Under the amendment to the Bank Act, these men cannot get an advance from the bank, owing to the fact that the Government's lien has priority.


William Thomas White: I desire to say a few words in reference to the observations made by the hon. member for St. John * (Mr. Pugsley). The object of this legislation is to secure advances made for the purpose of furnishing seed grain to the farmers of the West. It has been pointed out by the . right hon. the Prime Minister and by my hon. friend the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) that the effect of the action of the Government will be to preserve the security of the mortgagees. It is in the interest of the mortgagees that these advances should be made by the Dominion Government. My hon. friend must know, in the course of his legal experience, that it is the common practice of the courts to give a charge in priority to a first mortgage for Salvage money advanced to preserve property upon which the first mortgage has been taken. In the course of my experience I have known that to be done a number of times. Let us take the case of a receivership, we will say, of a mining company, and let us assume that there are first mortgage bonds outstanding secured according to the laws of a province by a first mortgage charge. The mines have to be pumped out and preserved, and the same principle applies to railways and undertakings of all kinds.
[Mr. 'W'arnock.J
My hon. friend must know in the course of his legal experience, that when such an application, setting out all the facts, is made to a court, some one has to advance the money for the purpose of preserving the property in which not only the receiver representing the creditors and the company but the bondholders themselves are vitally interested; and the court, acting within its equitable jurisdiction, at once makes an order giving a charge in priority to the charge created in favour of the first mortgage or other bondholders.


William Pugsley: Has the hon. gentleman ever known that to be done except in proceedings which are instituted by the bondholders themselves?


William Thomas White: I have known it to be
done at the instance of the receiver representing all parties, and I have never known bondholders to object where the object of the charge was to preserve the property, unless they themselves were prepared to come forward and put up the money. There is no departure from legal precedent in what we are proposing to do.
What is the situation? We were confronted with something in the nature of a national calamity in the West; a great district was visited by drouth. There was no crop for miles and for hundreds of miles. In these circumstances there was great destitution and at a time of the greatest financial stringency- in this country the Government was, asked to provide funds, in the first place, to relieve those who were in distress and in some ca^es were starving, and in the second place, to provide seed grain for them, in order that they might put in next year's crop. Tfie Government provided, and gladly provided, and it was a great pleasure to us to so provide, a sum of money, amounting to between eight and nine million dollars for that purpose. The question arises as to how we are going to secure that money of the people of Canada, advanced under extraordinary circumstances, because it would not be advanced under ordinary circumstances. If my hon. friend will look at the correspondence in 1908 between the Minister of the Interior and provincial governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta, he will find that it was laid down by the Minister of the Interior, in the Administration of which he was a member, that once lands are patented any relief to be given must be given by the provincial governments. In 1908 the then Dominion Government made a loan- because the province could not obtain the

money readily on account of financial stringency-to the provinces, which in turn made loans to owners of patented lands, and took from them precisely the same security as we are taking to-day, and no untoward consequence resulted. I was in the mortgage business at the time, and I think I am reasonably well acquainted with loan conditions in the Northwest, and I never heard a single complaint from the mortgagees with regard to the action of the Governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta. On the contrary, I have had managers of loan companies say to me that the Government should make these advances to provide for seed grain. It is true that within the last three or four weeks I have had communications passed on to me from mortgage companies, protesting against the Government taking a lien in priority of their mortgages. I pointed out to them precisely what I have pointed out to this House: that the situation was exceptional and abnormal, that a vast district in the West had been visited by unprecedented drouth, and that if we did not come ito the relief of those settlers, not only would they suffer, but the security upon which their _ first mortgages was held would be greatly depreciated. I pointed out, further, that the result that might be apprehended would be this: that if the farmers failed to secure seed grain which would enable them to raise a crop next year, not only would their security be depreciated, not only would the farmers' crop of next year he not available to pay their interest, but it might well happen that a whole district would be depopulated, because of an exodus, and if that should occur the value of the security held by the mortgagees would disappear.
In these circumstances, I have no hesitation in saying, and I have been a financial man for many years, that it is distinctly in the interests of the mortgagees themselves, just as it was to their interest in 1908, that the Government should make these advances, and that it is no hardship on the mortgagees that the advances so made from the money of the people of Canada should be secured by a lien-the lien bought for a comparatively small amount-in priority to the security of those mortgagees whose interests will be protected by the action of the Government.
My hon. friend (Mr. Pugsley) says we are acting like Shylocks. I desire to say this to him: that from all over the West we have had requests, and repeated requests, that the Government should advance this
money, and we have met these requests as fairly as we could. I may say further to my hon. friend, that I have, in the many letters, to say nothing of personal interviews, impressed upon the bankers of this country the desirability of extending credit, in so far as they can safely do so without departing from the principles of sound banking, to the farmers of the West at this critical period in their history and in the history of Canada, in order that this year they may be able to secure seed grain and raise a crop which is so essential to them, and to Canada, and for that matter to the Empire. Everything that the Government could be reasonably expected to do has been done, and I am surprised at my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) rising in his seat in the interests of the mortgagees whose securities are advantaged, and putting forward views which, if the Government had held, would have prevented them from doing what they have decided to do and which they believe will be of great advantage to the farmers of the West.
There has been absolutely no protest from any of the farmers of the West against our action. On the contrary, there have been requests from all parts of the West for the Government to do precisely what it has done, and in addition to that my hon. friend knows that in 1908 the provincial government took precisely the security which this Government is taking to-day. In fact, as the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) says, they went farther in the taking of security than we have gone, and no untoward results have come from it. It gave advantage to the farmer, advantage to the mortgagee, and so far as I know no loss to any one concerned has resulted. Under these circumstances I say that the remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Pugsley) were ill-advised, and that, his criticism lacks foundation. I do not believe there is a manager of a loan company doing business in the West who, if it came to a question whether the Government would not make advances at all, or would make advances and take security, would not say that he is in favour of making advances and taking security.


William Pugsley: That is what I complain of; you will not lend the money on fair terms.


William Thomas White: Fair terms? We are lending salvage money to protect not only the farmers but the interests of the mortgagees as I have shown, and shown conclusively, in accordance with the practice of the
1.336

courts, and what we ask is the security which has been deemed essential and which has been taken by the provincial governments who are on the spot, and who, as the Prime Munster has said, know the local situations and are best fitted to judge as to what legislation will prove beneficial for the interests of all concerned. They have done that, and no question raised by my hon. friend in the House; hut when we do it, my hon. friend protests. Of course, he would protest. I have often thought that, if there were no ten commandments and if a member of this Government brought them down as they left the hand of Moses and as mey appear in Holy Writ, my hon. friend or some other hon. gentleman opposite would protest that they were class legislation of the most objectionable character.


William Pugsley: I had no idea that J was going to stir up such a hornet's nest. My hon.- friend says-in effect-that my criticism is ill-advised and senseless; that it 'does not strike any one as amounting to anything. It is strange that it has taken my right hon. friend the Prime Minister, my distinguished friend the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen), and my very able and eloquent friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. White), to attempt to answer the criticism which I have made. The reason is that they know that this condition upon which they insist is wholly indefensible. They know that they cannot justify the taking away of vested rights in this way. My right hon. friend, however, says: Oh, the land companies will consent, because, if it is put to them as a question of either insisting upon this condition or not getting the seed grain at all, they will say that it is in the interest of the West and therefore in their interest. That is what I complain of, namely, that this Government ought not to have put the people of the provinces of the West or the mortgagees or the loan companies in the position in which it has placed them. I am entirely in favour of the legislation authorizing the advancing of seed grain. I agree with my hon. friend the member for Lethbridge (Mr. Buchanan) that it is the right thing to do; but what 1 am opposed to is the insisting upon those conditions and the violation of every principle of justice and fair-play with regard to those who have encumbrances upon western property.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT:: What would you suggest?


William Pugsley: I would suggest that under the present condition of affairs the 
Government ought to he willing to lend seed grain to the people of the West, taking a bond with one or two sureties in the case of persons whose security the Government does not think is satisfactory, and also taking a lien upon the grain which is raised from the seed so advanced to the farmers. That would be a reasonable proposition and something that the Government could justify. What I complain of is that the Government says: Although this is a national calamity, and we feel that it is in the interest of the whole people of Canada that good crops should. be raised during the present year; yet we are not going to advance a bushel of seed grain unless it is treated as a loan, unless we get 5 per cent interest, unless we have a first lien upon the property, putting us ahead of all other encumbrances, and also unless we get a lien upon the grain to be produced from the seed. No private individual could insist upon harsher terms than those upon which the Government is insisting, so far as the settlers of the West are concerned. Such harsh terms cannot be squared with any expression of a desire to aid the people of the West in the crisis in -	which they now find themselves.
12	noon. The hon. Minister of Finance says that he has known frequently of cases where property is in liquidation, and where receivers are appointed and receivers' certificates issued which come ahead of the interest of mortgagees. That is quite true in the case of proceedings which are taken by the mortgagees themselves. Where the mortgagees are the parties to the receivership, the receiver is practically their officer, although appointed by the court. In that case the court will issue receivers' certificates which will come ahead of the mortgages; but my right hon. friend has never known of a case where a second or a third mortgagee, who has instituted proceedings, can hiave receivers' certificates issued at his suit which will come ahead of the prior mortgages.


Richard Bedford Bennett: When the Wabash railway went into the hands of receivers, that was done at the instance of the creditors and subsequently at the instance of the bondholders. The receivers' certificates are prior to all claims against that road. The same is true of the Pere Marquette railway.
I can give my hon. friend the reference in the Wabash proceedings.


William Pugsley: In what state?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Missouri. There were
several applications for a receivership, one

by the creditors and subsequently one by the bondholders.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend, who is very familiar with eourt proceedings, has been obliged to go to the State of Missouri to get a precedent. Other gentlemen have gone to Missouri in the past, and they have secured information perhaps equally valuable.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I will give my hon. friend an instance in Canada. I once had to do with the liquidation of a very large company, and it became necessary for us to get funds with which to carry on the work. We got authority from the court for the Bank of Montreal to advance money. That money was considered as a prior claim against the assets of the company.
I have in mind another claim. My hon. friend reminds me that when I was a youth practising law, I learned a great deal from him. In the case of the Crown vs. Sieve-wright, I appeared at the instance of my hon. friend and on his behalf for the Crown. I was very pleased and proud to do so. The case went to the Supreme Court subsequently, and it was held that the Crown had a prior claim over the assets of Sievewright from the time he signed the bond until the receivership became effective. In the case of the Maritime Bank vs. the Queen, which arose in New Brunswick, and which went to the Privy Council, it was held that the money deposited by the province had a prior claim over the creditors of the bank.
Having come from New Brunswick, I understand that we have the same characteristic there as have the citizens of Missouri; we have to be shown. In that instance the people of New Brunswick were shown just as the people of Missouri have to be shown.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend stopped short in the lessons which he learned from me. If he had remained longer, perhaps he would have known that the reason why the Crown obtained precedence in the cases to which he referred is that by common law the Crown has a prior right against the assets of the subject.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Exactly.


William Pugsley: But that prior right must have reference to the debtor's property at the time when the Crown's claim first arose. You could not give a claim to the Crown to-day and take precedence over a mortgage which was executed yesternay.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Except it be for salary.


William Pugsley: That, of course, raises another question. In that case it does not make any difference whether it is the Crown or not. I am quite familiar with all the cases to which my hon. friend has referred, and I am quite familiar with the fact that liquidators under the Winding-up Act can obtain money which would be a first claim; but my hon. friend knows just as well as I do that under that Act the interests of mortgagees are brought before the court and are dealt with by the court just the same as are all the rights of the other creditors. That is an entirely different principle from the issuing of receiver's certificates which will come ahead of a mortgage. I have never known of a case, in Canada at all events, where in proceedings to which the first mortgagee is not a party, a receiver's certificate can be issued which will take precedence over the first mortgage. I do not believe that any such case can be found.
I am very sorry to detain the committee by reason of any remarks I make. I did not expect to provoke such a spirited defence of this legislation as that which has been entered . upon by hon. gentlemen upon the Government benches.
I regret to be compelled to say that I have not been at all convinced by the argument that the hon. gentlemen have made. They refer to 1908. Conditions were entirely different then. The country was comparatively new and there were comparatively few patented lands. There were fewer mortgages and not so many loan companies engaged and not so much money was invested. The Solicitor General says that I am taking the side of the moneyed interests. If it gives him any pleasure to say that, he is quite at liberty to say it. I should have thought from the intelligence oif the Solicitor General that he would have realized that I am taking the side of simple justice. A loan company or mortgagee is just as much entitled to justice as any other portion of the community. While I believe that this seed grain should be advanced, and while this side of the House will cheerfully support the Government in advancing it, what I object to is that this Parliament should ask the legislatures of Alberta and Saskatchewan to violate every principle of justice and interfere with vested rights by placing those who are now first or second mortgagees so that their lien shall come only second or third, and this

without asking the consent of the people whose rights it is intended to take away.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I had not intended to speak on this subject, but inasmuch as I live within one of the provinces affected so injuriously by reason of the drouth to which the Minister of Finance referred, I rise to make one or two observations. I have found that, as a matter of fact, most of the loan companies are particularly desirous that this legislation should pass. In the law office in which I carry on business when I am at home, we have had to do in the last few years with the loaning of very large sums of money, and much of it has been loaned in the very district affected by the drouth. Foreclosure proceedings have been threatened and, unfortunately, in some instances, foreclosure actions have actually been brought. When these actions were brought it was represented to the large loan companies, the trust companies, that it was probable that the Government would come forward and loan money for the purpose of securing seed to the settlers. When that became apparent, the companies at once dropped their foreclosure actions, realizing that this action on the part of the Government would enable the lands to be planted and would add value which would enable them to get back their money. It was then pointed out that the Government would not make these advances unless they were given a prior claim. But, as the hon. member for St. John City (Mr. Pugsley) has said, the Crown has a prior claim under the common law. All that is done, then, under this legislation, is to assert in statutory form the common-law right of the Crown. We have regard to the fact that the money is advanced for one purpose only, namely, to save the farmer, and the principle that he who saves should have a first claim against that which he has saved. This is an ordinary case of salvage.


John Hampden Burnham: Did the mortgagees
object?	,


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was going on further- and I am giving concrete cases. When it was pointed out that the result would be that the Crown would have a prior claim over their mortgages by reason of the legislation to be passed by the provinces, most of these companies were content. Why? Because the added value of their security made it advisable that this should be done. Suppose that they had gone on to foreclose-
I have in mind several cases-the property [Mr. Pussley.7
would not have been bought; there is nobody to buy it; and they would have to take title. What would that mean? It would mean a piece of idle land. But when, last fall, it became evident that the Government would furnish the seed grain, the people banded themselves together and by cooperative effort in many instances they prepared a larger acreage for seed than has ever been prepared in Southern' Alberta, looking to the seed grain to enable them to plant. And the- loan companies that have a first mortgage were content to have it so, rather than have on their hands pieces of land taken by foreclosure. They said: Our security is more valuable by reason of the seed being planted this spring, even though the lien for that seed is made a first claim against the land.


William Pugsley: The loan companies
being willing, why not get them to sign consent?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am just coming to
that. I went West eighteen years ago. The seed grain bonds to which the hon. gentleman referred had not run out, and I well remember the difficulties connected with them. The man to whom the seed was advanced signed a bond, and two or three of his neighbours signed with him as guarantors. It was quite natural that in a country so sparsely populated as it then was, each man was both principal and guarantor. Some of the principals left the country. In the Land Titles Office many seed grain bonds were registered and many a man had to pay not only for his own seed grain but as endorser for the seed grain given to others. That is the reason why the province, in 1908, would have nothing more to do with this bond business.
The whole theory on which the legislation of the provinces proceeds is to make it as simple as possible, and to do by statute and inexpensively that which would require large expense to do in individual cases. This legislation is the legislation of the provinces, not of the Dominion. We have the Torrens system of land titles in Alberta. When a mortgage is given against a title it is entered upon the certificate of title in the Lands Title Office as a first charge. That stands. This seed grain lien is to be made, not by Act of Parliament but by Act of the provincial legislature which is composed of men in touch with local conditions. This Dominion did not insist on any specific lien, but pointed out what would be most simple, most direct.

best calculated to meet the difficulty at the least expense. We have a statutory declaration by the province of Alberta that the seed grain lien shall rank first against the crop produced from the grain and for the purposes of repaying the loan. Could anything be fairer?
I am afraid the hon. member for St. John city has what may be called a political sympathy with the settler rather than a business sympathy with the investor. For I know his ideas of business too well not to know that, with his great capacity for business, he would challenge this Government and criticise it severely if it did not take steps to provide that the money of the people of Canada-it is the money of all the people-should be secured by a claim against the crop which is produced by this investment even though the property upon which it is produced is already mortgaged. The principles to which he has referred make this clearer. We have had comparatively little experience of receiverships of railways in Canada. But everybody who has studied the matter knows that receivers' certificates, in the United States, in England and in every other country, take priority over the claims of other creditors, whether they be first mortgagees, second mortgagees or any other. And they will continue to do so. I trust my hon. friend will not endeavour to make any political capital out of what he calls " the harsh and unjust measures " the Government has taken. Consider the situation to the south of the line. The State of Montana has been stricken as the province of Alberta has been stricken; but no relief was given to the settlers of Montana by the Federal Government of the United States.
They have cried aloud and in vain for the same measure of relief that we have given the distressed people of Western Canada. The people of the United States have been very much impressed with the difference in treatment. I had a letter this morning in which it is stated that a gentleman recently had ten inquiries to take up land in southern Alberta because it is apparent that our settlers are so generously treated in times of trouble and stress and drouth that it is a good country to settle in. My hon. friend is not serious when he says that we are unjust to the people of the West when all we have done is to say that repayment of advances must be made. All we have done is to say that when the money of the people of Canada, east or west, north or south, has been kindly and generously voted by the
men of Ontario and Quebec to relieve 'distress in Alberta and Saskatchewan, we shall not be blind to our obligations and duties and to declare that this salvage money, which is going to make great added wealth for each quarter-section and each half-section of Alberta, shall be repaid out of the added wealth thus created. It will enhance the value of each quarter-section and each half-section to an extent that will leave an equity in favour of the original owner that would not exist but for the very relief that we are advancing. My hon. friend, I am glad to see, has a sympathetic consideration for those in the West. In 1908 he was not averse to taking a prior lien against the mortgagee-but he was then a member of the Government and he is now in Opposition. Of course, if you can create sympathy on the part of the settler, make him think he has been harshly treated, per-adventure-I say peradventure-he may vote for your party; but I think he has too fine a sense of justice, too high a realization of what the Government has done in advancing $10,000,000 to assist the settlers of the West, to be affected by such a cry. That action will not be forgotten. There could be no better advertisement for Canada as a whole than thus to show the sympathy of the men of the east, those who have the greatest amount of money, for those in less fortunate circumstances in the West. I trust we shall hear no more about the injustice of this matter.


Edmond Proulx: Does my hon. friend
think the political consideration is uppermost in the minds of the Government when they are making the seed grain appropriation?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am very pleased to
say that I know it is not, for the largest measure of relief has been afforded in the constituency of the 'hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Buchanan), who happens to sit beside the hon. gentleman, and who knows that a great deal of relief given has been given to men of the other political faith, those who came into Canada some time ago and who were led to believe that there was only one side to vote for. They are, however, seeing the error of their ways. I know that these men are able to go to the stores where they formerly purchased, Whether they are Liberal or Conservative, and get their goods just as in days gone by and the Government pays the accounts. I know that my hon. friend will at least give the Government credit for that.


Mr. PROTJLX:: I was led to believe that the hon. gentleman thought that the Government was thinking about the vote of the men from the West in the next election because he took credit to the Government for voting this money, and he hoped the settlers in the West would not forget the Government at the next election. He thought the men from the West had reason to feel gratitude towards the Government for what they are now doing.


Richard Bedford Bennett: My hon. friend is
entirely mistaken. What I said was that it was painfully apparent that hon. gentlemen opposite were endeavouring to show to the settlers that they had been treated badly by the Government, in order to induce them to vote with his side; but I said I thought they were men of larger intelligence and greater understanding than that, and would realize that the relief which had been accorded to them had been received from the whole people of Canada.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I think we are getting away from the real purpose of the resolution. In so far as liens and mortgages are concerned, as I am not a lawyer and do not know the merits of these particular arguments, I shall not discuss them. The assistance that has been rendered to this particular district in western Canada will save the mortgages of the loan companies within the next few years. That is my view of the situation.
There is also this fact to be considered- I want to be candid and fair-that if the Government of Canada had not come to the relief of that district last fall, there would unquestionably have been an exodus of people from that district back to the United States and back to eastern Canada; and the result would have been that many homesteads would have been left on the hands of the mortgage companies of Canada. The Government are assisting the settlers by providing relief to maintain them, and then they are providing them with seed so that they may hope to get a crop this fall. They are also providing feed for their stock. I say that this is a necessity. If we get a crop in southern Alberta this year it is going to maintain the population there, and I am not discouraged about the future.
In the year before last the state of Kansas, one of the greatest producing states in the American Union, had a complete crop failure. That state in its early days had a precarious history. People went in there and settled; they met with crop failures and many left the state; but to-day Kansas

is one of the most productive states of the Union, and its farmers, per capita, are amongst the wealthiest farmers of the United States.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Over 100,000,000 bushels of wheat.


William Ashbury Buchanan: They had a crop failure in 1913 but last year they had the biggest crop in their history-so I am not discouraged about the future in Alberta. We have had good crops there. In this particular district, east of Lethbridge, there have been crops of 40 bushels to the acre of wheat. If that was done in one year it can be done again, and I believe the Government of Canada will receive back all the money it is expending in this particular regard. I believe that the loan companies will eventually have their mortgages cleared off and that the country will be prosperous and successful. I have been told by men in my own district that they started in Manitoba in the early days. I remember a gentleman who settled around Carberry who said they had to overcome so many obstacles there the first two or three years he was in that district that the men who could afford to get out got out and the only people who remained there were the people who could not afford to get out; yet those men who remained are to-day amongst the wealthiest and most prosperous farmers in Canada. I believe that the same thing will be said of southern Alberta in the days to come. It is true that I come from that district and that I am an optimist about it even when the clouds are hanging heavy over that particular country; but a man who has lived there and has seen large crops raised cannot help believing in that country. If our farmers had been in the condition of the farmers of Kansas in 1913 the Government would not have needed to assist them; but the fact is that our country is new, the people have just gone in there, they have very little, if any capital, and have a great deal of expense to meet in the earlier period of their settlement. Consequently when they faced a severe crop failure they had to look to somebody, or some organization, or some Government for assistance. If they had been in that country for a number of years and had had a series of good crops so that they could have laid money aside, they would have been in the same position as the farmers O'f Kansas in 1913; they could have overcome that obstacle and not worried about the future.
I would like to impress upon the members

of the Government that the assistance they have given has been probably beyond the amount that was at first intended; there is no question about that; but they have undertaken a policy of assisting the settlers of that district and I would urge upon them to carry that assistance out as far as possible until the crop of this year is assured. There is every reason to believe, if present indications are any indication, that we shall have an exceptionally good crop in southern Alberta this year. But what I wish to point out is this. As I said, when the Minister of Finance had the amendment to the Bank Act before the Committee the other day, the farmers of southern Alberta were up against these obstacles; they had no crop, and they had no feed for their stock; and they could not get any assistance from the banks. That is the position the majority of them were in. The Government granted relief to the farmers and their families, and they are grantifig assistance now in the way of seed grain and feed for stock. But I find in the regulations regarding feed for stock, a limitation which is going to interfere with the development of the mixed farming idea in that -section, and that is, that very little, if -any assistance is being given to the farmers towards keeping milch cows on their farms. The result is they are being compelled to sacrifice that kind of stock. I am also advised that the feed which is being advanced for farm work-horses is not sufficient to enable farmers to carry out the farm work as it should be carried out at the present time.
I have a petition here from Foremost, which I will read in order to impress upon the Government the view of these farmers. Foremost is in the heart of the drouth district in Southern Alberta :
Whereas we, the undersigned petitioners, are agreed that the Government allowance of one-half bushel per acre of feed oats for spring work on the farm is far from being a sufficient quantity to properly conduct the spring farming operations, our horses having just come through a hard winter without grain, we believe that an allowance should be made of two (2) gallons of grain to the horse per day for two weeks before work on the land begins and one bushel per acre for all acreage for which each farmer has received seed grain.
Thai is the statement of the farmers themselves. I intend to forward this petition to the Minister of the Interior, in order that he may look into the matter and ascertain whether the statements are warranted.
There is another point to be considered. In our part of the country, if farming is to
be successful, summer fallowing has to be done, and done in the early summer months. If the farmers are not able to get feed at that time, either through the banks or through the Government-and I understand that the Government have not decided to continue their assistance any further than for spring work-the farmers will be up against the very serious problem of not being able to carry on summer fallowing, which is a prime necessity in that part of Alberta. I want to bring that to the attention of the Government, because it is a very serious matter. I repeat that, if the summer fallowing cannot be done this summer, it will interfere with the possibilities of a crop next year. It was established even last year that where summer fallowing was properly done there was a crop even in the drouth district, probably not very large, but a crop nevertheless. Summer fallowing is a necessity, and I wish to emphasize that point; also the point that assistance should be given in the way of feed for other farm stock. I do not say that assistance should be given to a man who is practically a rancher, but I mean the ordinary farmer with a few head of cattle, a few hogs and other stock. Feed should be given to these farmers so that they could carry the stock until they -are in a condition to provide feed themselves. The farmer will pay the money back, and if we have a good crop this year, and the prospects point that way, the Government will be repaid this fall for what they have advanced. I am strongly in support of the measure which is now before the House.


Mr. LEVI THOMSON (Qu'Appelle):: I
think we had better drop any objections we may have as to the mode of taking security. The procedure is not satisfactory in a great many ways, it is true, but T suppose there would be objections to whatever method was suggested. In some cases the mortgagees may be injured, but as a whole I do not think they will, although I cannot agree with the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. R. B. Bennett) in his rather sweeping statement that the mortgagees will in no case be injured. The hon. member for Calgary intimated that if blame was to be attached to anybody it should be attached to the Provincial Government, but I say that if blame should be attached to any one it should be to the Dominion Government, for the Provincial Governments acted under compulsion. I am not finding fault with the legislation, in

its present stage at all events, but this question should not be made a political matter, although perhaps it was unwise of me to expect the hon. member from Calgary to treat it in any other way, if any political advantage was to be gained. My object in rising is this. I have been advised by certain people throughout the West that they are unable to obtain seed grain from this Government because their applications were not in early enough. Now, I do not think that should be made a fatal obstacle to their getting seed grain. I am sure the minister can easily understand why some of the applications were not in within the prescribed time. The matter was in such a state of . uncertainty that the farmers did not know where they were; first they were told that they could get seed grain, then they were told that they could not, and then that it was only for farmers on unpatented lands, and so on. I certainly think that the Minister of the Interior should not consider delay in getting in applications a fatal obstacle to the farmers getting seed grain. I think that every 'application which 'seems to be bona fide 'should be considered and help given, and I hope the minister will be able to assure us that the mere fact of being late in getting in their applications will not prevent these farmers from getting the seed grain which otherwise they would have been entitled to.


William Melville Martin: a less price and the farmers should have been getting their seed grain for less money than they are being required to pay to-day.
There is another matter which should be considered, and it is the fact that in the fall of 1914 there was coming out from time to time a demand for seed wheat in the restricted or drouth-stricken area. The Government knew on the 10th or 11th of January that in the province of Saskatchewan alone there were 6,000 applications for seed wheat outside of the drouth-stricken area. The Government took no measures then to buy the seed at a relatively low market price, as they could have done. In October, November and December there was not a tremendous break in the price of wheat, either upwards or downwards. I have the figures here, and they show that on the 1st of October No. 1 Northern hard sold at Fort William for $1.07J, and it ranged through the month at $1.04, $1.06, $1.14, the high point being $1.16. In November the price ranged from $1.17, the high point being $1.20, and on the last day of the month it was $1.15. In December it started at $1.16, running down as far as $1.15, and on the 31st of that month the price was $1.22. In January, the market opened at $1.26, and-inside of ten days it was up to $1.32, the price on the 25th of January being $1.39, and on the 30th of January $1.45. The great rise in the price of wheat at Port Arthur and Winnipeg took place in the month of January. If the Government had exercised reasonable foresight it might have purchased all the seed wheat required in November and December and thus have saved from 20 cents to 25 cents a bushel to the farmers who ultimately have to pay for it. As the maximum amount to be allowed to any farmer is 400 bushels, a saving of 2o cents per bushel would have meant to him $100. Then again, what was the necessity for the Government employing a special agent to buy this wheat? The Government had its Grain Commission, thoroughly equipped with proper facilities for buying, cleaning and handling seed grain and supplying it direct to the farmers. When the government of New Zealand wrote to the Department of Trade and Commerce asking for a supply of oats, the Minister of Trade and Commerce properly handed the purchasing of the oats over to the Grain Commission, and it is a fair proposition to say that the Government should have asked their Grain Commission to provide for supplying the seed grain. We

have confidence in the Grain Commission, and no doubt the Government has also confidence in it. The Grain Commission is a body in regard to which the present Government take a tremendous amount of credit in western Canada for having it appointed, although the fact is that when this Government came to power they enacted practically the legislation that was prepared in 1911 under the Government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier. We have a good deal of confidence all throughout the West in the Grain Commission, and the farmers and business men of the West would consider, had the Grain Commission purchased that grain and handled it, that the work would have been done in an absolutely honest and economic manner. I have nothing to say against the man appointed by the Government to buy this seed grain, I know nothing about him, but it strikes me that he has not handled the situation in an economic manner, and for that the Government must assume responsibility. When we look at the market price of wheat for five months prior to the time this seed wheat was purchased, it becomes evident at once that more was paid for the wheat than can be justified. I am convinced that the Government have paid too much for the grain and in the long run the western farmer must pay for it, and this year, at all events, he will not be in a very good condition to do so.


William James Roche: The chief complaint of
the hon. gentleman seems to be that the Government have paid the farmers too much for their grain, because, of course, the great bulk of this grain has been bought from the farmers direct. It is true that the gentleman who was appointed by the Acting Minister of the Interior as a special agent to purchase this grain has in most instances, in order to get first-class grain, paid a slight premium above the market price, but when the hon. gentleman compares the price at Fort William with the price paid to the farmers of Saskatchewan, of course it is an uniair comparison, and he recognizes that himself when the states he had not taken into consideration the cost of bagging and cleaning, which is very considerable. All this grain was pur-, chased from the farmers and taken to the Government elevators.


William Melville Martin: If I had taken
that into consideration, the price paid by the Government would be higher than the prices I have given, and, therefore, to the

disadvantage of the farmer, who is paying for the seed.


William James Roche: The gentleman appointed is Mr. Lindsay, who I understand is a practical grain man, and who has been in the business for many years. He has had a great deal of experience, and it was his view that it would be much better to have one uniform price that we could charge the farmers for their grain, rather than establish one price for those who had their applications in prior to Christmas, when the price of grain was not so high, and another price for those who put their applications in later when the market price had gone up. It was deemed advisable to strike an average which would be just sufficient to save the Government from loss and such average was estimated at $1.50 per bushel.
As to the Government getting the Grain Commissioners to act as our agents to purchase the grain, I may say that it would he entirely too large a contract for them in addition -to their regular duties. It has really the special attention and consideration of one man, and I have no doubt that the minister had that in view when the appointment was made.


William Melville Martin: Who was the
acting minister at that time?


William James Roche: The Hon. Mr. Rogers. He selected this gentleman, and I understand there have been no complaints whatever against him. I certainly have received no complaints in regard to the manner in which he has discharged his duties.


William Melville Martin: I understand the Minister of Public Works would like to get rid of him now.


William James Roche: If the hon. gentleman
understands that he understands something I do not know about, because I have heard no such statement from the Minister of Public Works. It is true Mr. Lindsay has been rather unfortunate, because he met with an accident while travelling in the discharge of his duties, and he was in the hospital for some time. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Martin) states, and in that he is confirmed by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Thomson), that there should be no time limit within which applications have to be received, and that this Government should accept every application, no matter how late it comes in. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Martin) will see that the very argument he is using in regard to the prices charged the farmers would be 85
knocked on the head if we accept his suggestion at this late date when grain has reached so high a price. If you add to the present price the cost of cleaning, the cost of freight, and the cost of bagging, it would make a tremendous addition to the cost we are now charging the farmers. The longer we leave the time open for applications, the higher the price the farmers will have to pay.


William Melville Martin: It does not matter how high the price is, that would not prevent the Government purchasing at the market price.


William James Roche: How on earth will the Government know how many bushels to purchase unless there was a time limit for application. There was a time limit set in 1908, and I heard no outcry on the part of hon. gentlemen opposite against it then. There was a time within which applications were received in 1908, and there was a maximum quantity of grain allowed each farmer. We have had some complaints that we are not allowing as a maximum a sufficient quantity of grain to the farmers. In 1908, when the other Government was in power, the maximum quantity was 250 bushels; it is now 400 bushels. We recognize the necessity of having a greater maximum to-day, in view of the larger acreage that is being prepared for crop, and therefore we are allowing 400 bushels as a maximum instead of 250 bushels. We had to have a time limit, otherwise our buyer would not know how much grain he should purchase. That time limit within the drouth-stricken area was the 31st of January. Those living in the drouth-stricken area have no excuse whatever if they did not have their applications in long prior to that date. If there are applications coming in now from that area, there is no excuse, because the whole West was circularized with regard to that time limit. As I explained the other day, in a portion of the country similarly situated, drouth-stricken but without the area set aside, the time limit for receiving grain was the 20th of February. In all other portions of the province the time limit was the 10th of March. I discussed this pcint with Mr. Bruce Walker, who has this matter in charge, and it was considered that that was the outside date at which the Government could have the grain purchased and have it go through all the processes which I have indicated, in order to reach the settler's hands in time for them to put the crop in. He stated to me that no person

n-m

who claims that the time limit should be extended beyond that date to any extent for receiving applications, purchasing the grain, cleaning it, shipping it out and so on, can fairly understand the condition of affairs that we would be up against if we extended the time limit beyond the 10th of March. I am not going to say that this is an absolute law like that of the Medes and Persians, which we cannot change. If the Government has a sufficient stock of grain on hand, and if the individual cases sent in beyond the time limit are found to be extremely necessitous and the grain is absolutely needed and there is no money to pay for it, I am not going to say that we shall not pass favourably upon such cases, because it is much better to allow the farmers to have the grain than to turn around and dispose of the grain afterwards. We had to set a time limit, and that time limit was a very reasonable one.


Edmond Proulx: What will be the time limit for repayment?


William James Roche: The payments are due on or before the first day of January, 1916.
At one o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Mr. ROBB:: Having listened this morning to the discussion on the question of seed grain, I wish to say that I believe there are not many millers or grain dealers in Canada who will object to the standard of profit established by Government in the purchase and sale of this grain, The Finance Minister told us this morning that the Government was going to spend about $10,000,000 in the purchase of seed grain. And the Minister of the Interior said that the price they were selling the grain at was $1.50 a bushel. At this price $10,000,000 would represent about 6,500,000 bushels of grain. In answer to a question asked in this House, which question and answers will be found in Hansard, the minister gave the average price paid for wheat for this purpose as follows: October, $1.10 a bushel; November, $1.13; December, $1.14 and January, $1.49, an average of $1.21i a bushe'l. The Minister of the Interior told us that the Government were only entertaining applications received prior to the 31st of January. So, we have reason to say that the grain they are selling at $1.50 a bushel they purchased during the months I have mentioned at an average price of $1.21i a bushel. Now, this price was about 10 cents a bushel highei 
than the market price at Fort William. When one buys wheat at ten cents above the market price, we have reason to suppose thatx what he is getting is first-class seed wheat ready to put into the ground. But we will allow them 8i cents a bushel for cleaning and bagging this grain. The difference in freight between Saskatchewan and Fort William will pay the freight to the point where the seed grain is required. This makes the price to the Government $1.30 a bushel, which means that the Government is working on a margin of profit of at least 20 cents a bushel, which, on this deal will represent $1,300,000 as the amount which the Government have to come and go upon in the purchase and sale of this seed wheat. That is all I have to say in that connection. It is a matter which the Government can settle with their borrowers and the people from whom they are buying the grain.
It has been suggested by people in the West that the Government buying this seed grain ought to see to it that all who sow the grain shall be compelled to take out hail insurance; for I understand that the individual farmer loses his crop by hail probably three times for once he will lose it by drouth. I commend this to the consideration of the minister.


William Melville Martin: I wish to find out definitely if the agreement made with the Alberta government and the legislation passed by the Alberta legislature provides for a lien On the crop grown this year not only for seed grain but for feed advanced to those farmers in the drouth-stricken district?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: Is there a similar agreement with the province of Saskatchewan? Has that government agreed to give a crop lien or chattel mortgage for the purchase price of the seed grain?


William James Roche: The agreements are the
same.


William Melville Martin: That is, the lien will not only affect the land, but the Government may take security on the crop?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Melville Martin: It struck me there was
something in what was said by the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Warnock) with respect to the proposed amendment to the Bank Act. So far as the province of Saskatchewan is concerned, outside the burned-

out area I do not think it will make any difference. That is, the Government will only get the seed grain mortgage on the crop if seed grain is advanced; and if not, the Government will not have a mortgage, and the bank may advance the money and get that seed grain mortgage. But in the burned-out area in Saskatchewan or Alberta, a man gives a lien on his crop of next year in order to get an advance of feed, fodder or hay for his stock. But if he does not also get seed grain from the Government, where is he going to get it? The hanks will not advance on his security. It seems to me that, so far as the burned-out are,a is concerned, the amendment to the Bank Act will not be of any advantage.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman assumes that a man's credit is gone when he has given a lien on his crop for the feed advanced to him.


William Melville Martin: The minister will admit
that if the Dominion Government has a lien or a chattel mortgage on the growing crop for the purpose of securing the advance made to him for feed, no bank will advance money for seed.


William Thomas White: That depends on the amount.


William Melville Martin: There is no question about it in my mind. As I have said, it may not affect the country outside the burned-out area. There is one other matter: It seems to me the minister has not given us any assurance yet that a man making application for seed grain will get seed grain.


William James Roche: I cannot give that assurance, because I do not know whether the grain can be purchased at this date or what would have to be paid for it. The hon. gentleman was finding fault with the high price we charge the farmer. But I do not think we should be justified in going on the market and buying to-day unless to meet cases that are very extreme. At this time I do not think there would be any excuse for us doing so. Not only that, but as pointed out to me by the commissioner who has looked into this matter very carefully, I do not think we should have time to go into the market and purchase that grain, ship it to elevators and have it cleaned and put in sacks and then shipped and distributed, in time for seeding. I have already said that if, after supplying the wants of the present applicants we have grain on hand, we will cater to the wants of those whose 85J
applications are yet to come in, or that came in after the time limit had expired.


William Melville Martin: It seems to me that the statements of the minister to-day are not exactly the same as the statements made by him on February 10. On that date he wound up his address by saying definitely that every application would receive proper consideration.


William James Roche: Within the time limit.


William Melville Martin: No, there was no time
limit fixed in his address of the 10th of February. He said that every application would receive proper consideration. I quite recognize that some time limit must be fixed by the Government, but on the 10th of February the minister did not fix any time limit. He said every application would receive proper consideration. From his statement on February 10 a representative of one of these constituencies in this House would have been justified in saying to any person who inquired about the matter: If you have lost your crop through some misfortune, drouth or something of that kind, your application will receive proper consideration at the hands of the Government. That is exactly what has taken place, and from the 10th of February applications were made out by people in western Canada for seed grain, but they were told definitely that the time had expired and, as I said before luncheon, great uncertainty has existed during the past three or four months in western Canada as to whether the Government were going to supply seed grain. I am not finding fault with the supplying of any amount of grain that may be necessary to care for the people of the West, but I am criticising the way in which the matter has been dealt with by the Government officials in western Canada. The minister and other members will remember that for a period of three or four months every individual in the West was in no doubt as to the supplying of seed grain. Everybody was led to believe by Government newspapers and officials that seed grain was going to be supplied beyond all doubt to every person, whether on patented or unpatented lands, and the letters sent out by the department and statements made in Government newspapers in western Canada did not even fix any limit of area; every man, whether a farmer or a business man, was misled by the circular letters sent out by the Department of Immigration, with headquarters at Winnipeg and by statements published in

the Government press throughout that country. To-day we ought to have some assurance from the minister that, even if a man makes application to-day, his application will receive some consideration. Of course, if the Government cannot get grain, they cannot supply seed, but there was a time within the last five or six months when grain could have been got and got at a much less price than to-day. Take the drouth-stricken area, where the Government knew, when every man in the West knew as early as August 14, when the crops were proven to be a failure, that a large quantity of seed grain would be required, did the Government buy any seed grain? I asked some questions in order to ascertain that', but they were changed to notices of motion for orders, and so I cannot get the information before the close of the session and therefore cannot intelligently discuss this phase of the question. The condition of the matter is simply that for three or four months last fall, when grain could have been purchased at a reasonable price, $1.05, $1.10 or $1.15, the Government purchased a very small quantity of seed grain. I shall not criticise the Government for not looking after people outside of the stricken area, but I do criticise them for not having provided seed grain at reasonable market prices for the burnt-out district. They are charging farmers there $1.50 for seed grain which could have been bought for very much less at an earlier period had they chosen to do so. In so far as my figures given this morning are concerned, I presume it is a fair statement that the Government have probably purchased about
5.000.	000 bushels of seed grain up to date. According to the figures I gave this morning, which are beyond dispute, there has been m one month a loss of 6 cents a bushel, in another of 10 cents a bushel, in another of 24 cents a bushel, by the delay in purchasing grain. It is a fair assumption that on the
4.000.	000 bushels there has been an average loss of 10 cents a bushel, perhaps not a loss but an over expenditure by the Government, so that the total amount that has been over-spent runs anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000. It is true that the Government do not lose the money as it will be extorted at a later date from people who cannot afford to pay it. The minister should certainly give us some assurance that every proper application for seed grain will receive consideration at the hands of the Government, even now.


William Roche: I think if the hon. gentleman were as solicitous about the welfare of the settlers as he is to make capital against the Government on this question he would speak in a different tone. He is adopting a most unreasonable attitude. It has been a most difficult situation to grapple with. We have been doing our very best to meet it. The hon. member blames the Government because they could not foresee last August the amount of grain that would have to be purchased even for the drouth-stricken area. That is most unreasonable. Last January, from within the drouth-stricken area, there were received during four days when Mr. Bruce Walker was in Ottawa- and he estimated while here that there would be 600 applications awaiting him on his return to Winnipeg-9,000 applications.


William Melville Martin: These applications came to the knowledge of Government officials in western Canada long before January.


William Roche: A small proportion may
have.


William Melville Martin: If that is the case the Government officials who have been running loose in Saskatchewan the last six months have not been of much use.


William Roche: I think they tried to do their duty and have done it well under the circumstances. The hon. gentleman blames us for charging the farmers so much for grain, and in the next breath he urges us to go out in the market and buy at still higher prices. If he would consider a moment and try to deal with the situation as we have tried to do, in a fair manner, he would not be so keen in criticism. The provincial government of Saskatchewan estimated that it would take for relief within the drouth-stricken area one-half million dollars, but they found that in a short time they had expended $1,200,000. The provincial ministers told me that they had not the slightest idea of the extent of relief they would have to grant; and if the hon. gentleman's own friends, living on the ground, could not estimate the requirements of those in destitute circumstances more closely than that, how can he blame us for not having been able to tell, several months in advance, the amount of seed grain the farmers would require. Many applications that have come in have not been legitimate applications. It has come to my attention within the last week that

some farmers have been getting seed grain and selling it to the elevators, and some of them are to-day under arrest for doing so. A great many of those later applications, I have not the slightest doubt, have not been deserving cases; they have not been the kind of cases that we set out to assist in the first place. I have no doubt that the men who have put in their applications since the time limit, after the West had been circularized that there would be a time limit beyond which no applications would be received, could have got credit at the banks to purchase grain. Besides that, 1 understand that the provincial government took up the cases that we are not supposed to deal with and circularized the farmers of the West to meet their agents on a certain day in order to be dealt with; and now, because we do not deal with every application that comes in, no matter whether it was received before or since the time limit, no matter whether we have grain or not or at what price we would have to buy it, the hon-. gentleman is trying to bring the Government into contempt and saying that we 'have not been meeting the just requirements of the western people. I think his criticism is entirely unjustified. It has been a most difficult position, and Mr. Bruce Walker is deserving of praise, not of such censure as the hon. gentleman has passed on him, for the manner in which he has met the situation. The amount of grain that had been purchased up to the 2nd of March was between three and four million bushels of wheat and about the same of oats.
I think the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) made a miscalculation in his estimate of the profit which the Government would make, by assuming that all this was wheat. Now, we did not purchase that quantity of wheat. As a matter of fact, there was- very little difference between the quantity of wheat purchased and the quantity of oats. In addition to that, we purchased some hundred thousand or more bushels of barley.
In conclusion, if we have on hand any grain, after all the just demands that reached us within the time limit have been satisfied, we shall then consider those applications which reached us after the time limit, and shall supply the deserving cases so far as we can. Further than that I cannot go, and further than that it would not be reasonable to expect me to go.
Resolution reported, read the first and the second time, and agreed to.
Mr. ROCHE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 85, respecting seed grain, fodder and other relief.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	*

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. T. WHITE (Minister of Finance), Bill No. 78, to amend the Bank Act, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Sevigny in the chair.
On section 1-loans for purchase of seed grain:
George Perry Graham: Does subsection 10 of this section relate to what is known as the secret lien? My hon. friend will remember that we have discussed this principle on several occasions. As I understand it, bankers have the right to secure what is known as a secret lien on any industry, and other creditors of the industry have no reasonable means of ascertaining this liability to the bank. For example, a firm may be supplying goods to some industry or institution apparently doing a good business, but if that industry or institution should get into financial difficulties and fail, the firm that supplied it with goods discovers that the bank has a lien prior to every other creditor, and may not be paid one cent of what is owing to them unless the industry or institution has enough assets to pay all its liabilities; and at the same time the bank gets paid in full. The principle has its advantages, but could not some method be devised by which the bank's lien, if not registered, might be filed in some place where other firms doing business with the institution that has given the secret lien could ascertain what security there was before giving that institution any great line of credit ? I know that one of the arguments in favour of the secret lien is that establishments might go to the wall if the banks were not allowed to help them in this way. But is the good accomplished greater than the evil that may be done to the firm that supplies this institution with goods ? Personally I have not made up my mind on that point. I have discussed it with some manufacturers, who, of course, think it a very good thing when they are giving the secret lien themselves, but a very bad thing when they happen to be the creditor'. Is there not a middle course that could be adopted to overcome the difficul-

ties which have arisen in connection with this matter ?


William Thomas White: During the absence of my hon. friend the other day we had a general discussion of this very topic when the resolution preceding this Bill was under consideration; the matter has also been discussed upon every decennial revision of the Bank Act for a long time past; and the argument which has been suggested rather than put forward by my hon. friend has always been put forward on the occasion of such discussions. In a word, I may say that, so far, it has appeared to Parliament that the advantages in favour of empowering the banks to take secret liens upon merchandise in connection with the carrying on of the trade of the country have b^-en regarded as outweighing the disadvantages which my hon. friend has suggested. I was very much surprised myself to learn that liens are taken throughout the country by the hundreds, if not by the thousands, in the course of a single day. They are taken by branch banks all over Canada. It can be very conveniently done under section 88 of the Bank Act. * These liens may be paid off the next day or the day after. After twenty years' experience, if not more, I think the experience of the business community has been that no very serious disadvantage has resulted from these secret liens. On the other hand, the advantage has been great, enabling manufacturers to get their raw material and to manufacture their product, and then pay off the lien. My own view is that the range of transactions in which the secret lien might be taken should not be extended without the most careful consideration. It was discussed upon the occasion of the last revision of the Bank Act whether the banks should be permitted to take chattel mortgages upon farmers' grain or cattle and other live stock. I think, that while it was not the unanimous opinion, it was the general opinion of Parliament, that it would be unwise, for two reasons. In the first place, it would place the farmer at a disadvantage with the bank itself. A bank would obtain a chattel mortgage on all he possessed. Secondly, it would prejudice the right of creditors, such as storekeepers and others. On these grounds we did not favour allowing the bankers to take chattel mortgage securities. It would be extremely inconvenient, in the multitudinous transactions that take place between merchants, manufacturers and banks, to compel the
rMr. Graham.]
registration of every lien which is taken in respect to merchandise.
The question was raised the other day whether it would not be advisable that these liens which we are now permitting the banks to take under this legislation should be registered. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) took the view that merchants and others would be loth to extend credit to farmers if by chance they might be cut out through the operation of the secret lien. It was pointed out to him that there was not the machinery in the different provinces to enable the Government to provide under legislation of this kind for the registration of liens. I pointed out that in the province of Quebec, for example, mortgages or liens upon personal property were illegal, and that there is no provision in the province of Quebec such as exists in Ontario for the registration of chattel mortgages. Therefore, if at this time we determined that these liens should be registered, as the legislation is general, we should be obliged to create machinery for registration in all the provinces. We might have to enact that they should register these liens with certain courts or officers and that certain fees should be paid. Altogether, if we were proposing to enact such legislation, it would be a matter that would require very careful consideration, which consideration would require a greater length of time than we have, at all events this session, still remaining at our disposal.
There was another feature that was not brought out in the discussion the other day, and that was that the charge for registering these liens would of course be borne by the farmer. In the present condition of the West, which it is designed that this legislation shall aid, it is not advisable that we should increase the charges which may' be imposed by the banks on the western farmers by requiring that these liens shall lie registered. This legislation covers only advances made for a specific purpose-seed grain. Seed grain is vital to the West in order that the crop may be sown. If the crop is a good one, as we all expect, the amount realized from the crop will be many times in excess of the advances made for the purpose of securing seed grain. I think the western provinces have recognized that advances made for seed grain are exceptional and they have special legislation-"dealing with seed-grain mortgages.
There is one other feature that I pointed out the other day, my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) being absent, that is, that this

legislation is temporary. This is not a permanent amendment of the Bank Act.


George Perry Graham: Not like the tariff?


William Thomas White: War taxation can hardly be described as permanent taxation. This legislation is temporary in character. The legislation will have effect from March 15, 1915, and in order that the banks may not have to await the final passage of the Act, I caused them all to be notified of the terms of the Bill and the form of security which they might take. They, of course, will rely on the Bill being passed in substantially the form in which it now is before tjhe House, and I have no doubt that some of them are acting upon it now. I pointed out also that I had made inquiries from all the chartered banks in Canada as to whether this legislation would be helpful. They all said that the determining, the controlling factor in their extending of credit would be the general standing of the 'borrower. I think that is a sound banking principle, hut it appeared to me also from their replies that it would be of some material assistance to the farmers of the West if the bankers were put in the position of obtaining this additional security. I think that any farmer who is in good standing will be able to obtain an advance for seed grain probably without this legislation, but this legislation may help even his case, and there are some cases no doubt in which the ability to obtain the security may be decisive with the banker in considering the question of whether or not an advance shall be made. I explained the other day that this legislation had not been asked for by the bankers, but that it had been asked for by others-by the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. W. H. Sharpe) and by others who are interested in the West and who know the conditions prevailing there.


George Ewan McCraney: The minister speaks of this legislation as having a limited duration. What limit does he intend to put to it?


William Thomas White: For the present year. My right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) stated the other day that personally he could see no reason why this legislation should not be made permanent, but that inasmuch as it was an experiment we would be better able to judge of its results after we had seen how it worked out. I think there is much to be said for that view. If it turns out that this legislation is useful and not likely to
prejudice the interests of creditors I should be prepared to take into consideration very carefully-because this is a matter that would require very careful consideration- the question of whether it should be permanently embodied in the Bank Act. At present we only go so far as to bring in legislation which will assist the present situation existing in the West.


George Perry Graham: I am sorry that I was not here the other day when the argument in favour of this legislation was presented. I want to assure the Minister of Finance that I did not have special reference to this legislation.


William Thomas White: I know.


George Perry Graham: I was considering the larger view as to how what is known as the secret lien of the banks affects industries generally. I have as much confidence as any one in the West that the situation is just temporary and possibly the little difficulties that the West is experiencing now may not be such a bad thing for the country in the long run. I earnestly agree with any attempts that are being made to enable the farmers to get money from the banks. Possibly I would not go so far as to say that this legislation enables banks to give them money, but it enables farmers to get money from the banks. That is the way I prefer to put it. There has been some criticism as to whether the banks are doing their full duty to our great industries in the country in the present time of stress. I will not discuss that question, as I discussed it the other day. It always did strike me as a little anomalous that a bank should have the privilege of getting a prior security over all other creditors without the other creditors knowing it. That is a point that strikes the public as being very peculiar. But that is apart from this question, as the Minister of Finance has explained. I only rose to point out to the minister that I had no reference at all to this legislation because it is extremely necessary, and I would not throw the least straw in the way of having it made clear that the farmers will be able to get money from the banks on the best terms possible in order to tide them over the difficulties that now face them in the West. I have every confidence thait these difficulties will be tided over and that western Canada will continue to be a great and important part of this Dominion.


George Ewan McCraney: The minister pointed
out that in some of the western provinces special provision is made for security being taken on growing crops. In the province of Saskatchewan, and I believe in the province of Alberta, the Chattel Mortgage Act forbids the giving of any security on the growing crop other than security which may be given for seed grain. In the chattel mortgage itself the particulars of the grain supplied must be given as to quantities and prices, and an affidavit as to the bona fideness of the transaction is provided for. Consequently, under our provincial law, security on growing crops can be made use of for only the one purpose of purchasing seed grain. As the operation of these provisions in the Bill is confined to advances made only for the purpose of purchasing seed grain, I see no objection whatever to the conditions being made permanent. I understand the minister to say that he only wants this legislation for this year. I think the Bill might very well go through in a permanent form, because it looks like good legislation. If the provisions were that security could be taken by the bank for any other purpose than seed grain, I would object to it, but as it is limited to that one purpose, I think that it is not only good, but that it should be made permanent.


William F. Carroll: Does not the minister
think there should be some affidavit attached to this schedule in which the borrower could be made to declare that this money is to be used for the purpose of purchasing seed grain? I think the schedule as it now stands may leave an opening for fraud, although I do not think, of courser that the iarmers would be guilty of such a thing.


Levi Thomson: I am with the hon. member for Saskatoon as to the wisdom of some such legislation as this, and I also agree with what appears to be in his mind that probably there will be permanent legislation on this subject by and by. I do not know if other provinces have the same legislation as to the giving of securities on growing crops as the province of Saskatchewan has. I do not agree with the minister's reasons for not requiring registration; I do not think they are good reasons, with all due respect to the hon. gentleman. There may be some provinces in which there is no provision for registration of any chattel mortgages, but why should that be any objection to having a

provision in this Bill that in any province in which there is provision for registration, these liens must be registered in accordance with the law's of that province?


William Thomas White: Under the law of the province of Quebec there is no provision for registration, because a chattel mortgage is absolutely prohibited.


Levi Thomson: That does not prevent you from having a provision in this Bill whereby the lien should be registered in any province where there is provision for registering such a lien, in accordance with the law' of that province. I see no objection to that, but I do see every objection to allowing the banks to take liens without registration. I am satisfied it would work very badly in Saskatchewan, and I can see where a great deal of difficulty would arise. I do not know what the provisions of the law in Alberta and Manitoba are in this respect, but I fancy they are very much the same as in our province. The cost of registering is only 25 cents in Saskatchewan, and	I	think it is	about
the same in other provinces. The fact that there is not such a provision in this legislation will cause the farmers a great deal more loss than the paying of a small fee for registration. There is no doubt it will injure the credit of the farmers generally not to have registration. I have seen quite a number of these seed grain chattel mortgages, and sometimes they are made by mortgagees who have never seen the grain at all, and I have no doubt that in practically every case where the bank advances the money it will not be a delivery of the seed grain at all. If I want to borrow money from the bank I can sell my seed to the bank and then I can re-buy and give my mortgage, and that is the way it will be done. In that way we will find that a very large proportion of the farmers of the West will have their crops mortgaged. There is no objection at all to that in my mind, so long as the liens are registered that everybody can ascertain in the registry office whether or not such a farmer has given security on his crop. I certainly think the minister should never dream of passing this legislation without having a provision for registration in any province where registration is allowed, according to the laws of that province.


Mr. W. H. SHARPE:: I am not at all surprised that a law'yer like my hon. friend (Mr. Thomson) should be in favour of registration, but being a farmer myself I am

very much opposed to it in this case at the present time. My idea was to let the legislation go through as it is, because if you require registration the farmer will have to have a regular chattel mortgage form and that would mean five dollars for a lawyer to draw it up and seventy-five cents for registration. It is in order to do away with these hardships on the farmer that I am in favour of passing this Bill as it is.


Levi Thomson: I think my hon. friend is a long way off in reference to the charges of the lawyers.


William Henry Sharpe: I have paid those fees
before now.


Levi Thomson: If this legislation requires registration I do not think there is one lawyer out of a thousand who will ever draw a single chattel mortgage.


William Henry Sharpe: They would not need to
if the Bill passes in its present form.


Levi Thomson: They would not need to under the provision I ask for.


William Henry Sharpe: If registration is required, you would need to have a regular chattel mortgage.


Levi Thomson: No. The hon. member
for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney) has told us what is required in Saskatchewan, and 1 think the same applies to the other provinces. The instrument will show bona fide for what reason the mortgage is given, and the affidavit of the mortgagee must show the same thing. I think the laws in the different provinces in reference to this matter are much the same. This Act might provide that such a form need not be used, and you do not need to go to a lawyer.


William Henry Sharpe: They would go to a lawyer.


Levi Thomson: My hon. friend need not worry about the lawyers. The farmers are just ias liable to go to a lawyer under the Bill as it is at present than if registration were required.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: The remarks of
the Minister of Finance to the effect that he regards this legislation as experimental and that it may be followed later by permanent legislation, brings up the question of the banking facilities in this country. I am not now going to make any long criticism of the situation, but there is a very strong belief	in	the country to-day thitthere is not sufficient banking accommodation	for	the farmers. An excellent example has been set to Canada by other countries which have passed special banking legislation for the benefit and the relief of farmers. I see no outcome of the the present war except the widest kind of revision of our banking legislation with a view to giving greater banking facilities to the farmers. The chairman of the Conservation Commission, Sir Clifford Sifton, a short time ago delivered an address in Montreal in which he pointed out that the great need of the western farmer to-day was banking accommodation and that he could not , get it from the ordinary large banks which had their headquarters in the East and their western branches administered by local managers. I think that criticism was sound. He said further that there was a necessity in the West-and I believe throughout this country-not only for large banks but for smaller banks, very much after the style of the local banks in tho United States, which have proved of great assistance to the farmers in the West. I do not see why a farmer should not be able to borrow money from a bank on his real estate. Progressive banking legislation always makes provision of that kind. The minister says that he will have to reconsider the whole question. I know that he will have to reconsider it after the war is over or before it is over. Having the farmer always in view and that puts me in order-we shall have to have a banking system based on a national currency and a great national bank, the Bank of Canada, made up of all the banks of the country, in the same way as the National Reserve banks of the United States have been created. The latter were created by compelling all the banks in the United States to join in taking stock in those National Reserve banks. The national currency of the United States is the best currency in the world,	and our national	currency is the best currency that we have in	this country. We	are
going to validate certain action taken by the Minister of Finance for a larger use of the national currency. I am not going to blame him for it. Therefore, when we come to deal with banking relief for the farmer, it must be based upon two things, namely, a great national bank to which all the banks will be subscribers, and the emission of national notes in place of bank notes for the use of all the banks comprising the national bank of Canada. That national bank will have another function, namely, to be a bank of rediscount. The country is in need of that great relief. We


William Melville Martin: I was one of those from the West who took up this matter with the Minister of Finance two or three weeks ago, and he told me that a Bill would *be introduced along the line suggested by myself and others. I was induced to speak to the Minister -of Finance on the subject by correspondence I had with bankers in the city in which I reside. There has been a feeling that legislation of this kind would be of assistance in enabling the banks to advance money to farmers for the purchase of seed grain. The object was if possible to give the banks an opportunity to loosen up a little money for the purchase of seed grain for farmers who were not in the class designated by the Minister of the Interior in the legislation we have just been considering. It seemed to me it would be wise legislation if it relieved the bank of anything that now hampered it in advancing money in such cases. As to registration, I do not think it can make much difference in the present case. In Saskatchewan, in Alberta, and also in Manitoba, we have provision for what we call seed grain mortgages. The only thing for which a chattel mortgage can be given on a growing crop or a prospective crop is for the purchase of seed grain. The present Bill does not change the circumstances, but gives the banks the power to take a lien on a growing crop, and whether it is registered or not, it seems to me, it does not make much difference. As a matter of fact, the lawyers will not profit by this, as has been suggested. Seed grain mortgages in our country are usually drawn, by lawyers, because the document is less simple than a chattel mortgage. But this measure provides a simple form which will be in the hands of the bank, and will be filed in the bank. As the measure is for the purpose of assisting the farmer, it is just as well not to bother about registration. It is provided in schedule G of this Bill:
Inasmuch as the said advance was made on the representation that seed grain would be purchased.
The man represents to the bank that the money he seeks to borrow is required for the purchase of seed grain, and even though he does not buy seed grain, the bank still has a mortgage on his crop. I would not criticise that. For the sake of our financial
institutions and the stability of business, our banks must be protected.
As to what has been said by the hon. member for South York (Mr. W. F. Maclean), I have not his theoretical knowledge of our banking system; but I have one criticism to offer. I believe that, so far as the West is concerned, the banks have handled a very difficult situation there for the past eighteen months very well. And, by the way, the Minister of Finance will admit that, so far as the West is concerned, we had a financial stringency long before the war was ever thought of. The Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) made a speech in this House on agricultural credits in April, 1913, shortly after the Naval debate, in which he spoke of a financial stringency as existing. That was two years ago; and we have had that financial stringency ever since.
In Saskatchewan we have very few manufacturing institutions, and our province is better off since the war than it was before. The war has not benefited the, wildcatter and the real estate subdivider, but it has benefited the average business man and farmer by improving the prices of our commodities. So, financial stringency has not been caused by the war so far as Saskatchewan is concerned. But what I was going to say is that our banks are large chartered banks, not local institutions. They are all controlled in eastern Canada, and the men at the head of them have not the knowledge of western Canada that they ought to have. My only criticism of the Canadian banking system is that vast sums of money are gathered in the cities of Eastern Canada and loaned to great manufacturing institutions in huge sums, and the little fellow in the West has no chance to get any money. That is a criticism that will be agreed upon by men from western Canada sitting upon opposite sides of this House. I do not know whether the Minister of Finance can do anything to rectify that system. It is pointed out that the American banking system is better for local needs than our own. I do not think their banks are as strong as ours, but the advantage of them is that the money is gathered at local points and administered by local men who know and understand local conditions and the needs of the people of the locality. In the West we do not reap the benefit of the money gathered in; it goes to the East, and we do not see it again.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: This is a subject that has been discussed a great deal, and I

would like to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. W. M. Martin) a question about it. If I understand him, he intimates that money deposited by western people is not used in western Canada, but is sent to be used by eastern people. Now, I understand differently, and I have tried to ascertain the facts. I understand that there is less money deposited, in the West than is used in the West, and that instead of western money coming east, eastern money is all the time going west, But that is the point I raise, and if any one can give me information on it I shall be glad to have it.


William Melville Martin: I think there can be no doubt about eastern money coming West, but I have been led to understand that there is a large movement the other way. I have no figures to give the 'hon. gentleman.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The matter discussed has engaged my attention during a good many weeks of the last year. There have been many attempts in western Canada to solve the difficulty in connection with the lack of money to carry on not only farming operations but many other operations.
The banking system of Canada, it seems to me, may be considered under several heads. First of all, you have the capital of, the banks. The capital is the property of the shareholders of the banks absolutely. Over that, it seems to me, Parliament should have no power. Parliament has no reason to interfere with what men do with their own money which they subscribe for a corporation called a bank. With that capital they may buy offices, lands, premises-do anything they like. Then, secondly, we have the deposits made by the depositors throughout Canada. The duty of Parliament is twofold: first, to preserve by adequate legislation the rights of the depositor, and, secondly, to insure by reasonable legislation that these deposits are used by the banks for the public interest as well as for the making of profit. Then there arises the third position, that is, the franchise or privilege which is conferred upon the banks by Parliament. By the acts of this Dominion we have conferred upon banks the right to issue paper money to the extent of their paid-up capital. In other words, when three or four men band themselves together as a corporation and call themselves a bank, they have a right to issue paper money to the extent of the paid-
up capital of the institution. That is an extraordinary franchise, an extraordinary privilege, an extraordinary power given to individuals who, by an accident, are able to call themselves a bank instead of some other kind of a corporation. For that franchise this Parliament has a right to hold a bank to the strictest account, and in the exercise of those powers this Parliament must stipulate that they shall be exercised for the public interest and not for the benefit purely of the private individuals. That is the paramount duty of Parliament, and that duty Parliament has always endeavoured to discharge in times gone by by the passing of what are called Bank Acts. But with the development of society, which, after all, is very complex in these days, the question as to what powers and privileges should be given to banks is becoming of immense importance, and the real question we have to consider in this Parliament is to what extent the granting of so large a franchise as the right to create paper money to the extent of paid-up capital of the bank


William Findlay Maclean: More than that now.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, more than
that now, but I am speaking generally-to-the extent of its paid-up capital, and the extent to which the banks shall be com pelled to exercise these powers purely in the public interest as distinct from the right to exercise them for their own profit. I think that Parliament has been fairly reasonable in restricting the powers of banks and preserving the rights of the people. I devoted a great deal of time to the matter last fall, and I was confronted with this condition, and it is a very difficult one: the difficulty in the Dominion of Canada lies in the fact that we have too few deposits and that the volume of our wealth is too small. That is the real difficulty; we might as well face it frankly. I took the trouble to-analyse the situation in western Canada. I started out to criticise, and I was somewhat censorious, because I thought the banks had to some extent failed in the discharge of the duties which devolved upon them by reason of the powers conferred upon them by Parliament. What did I find? That west of the Great Lakes the deposits bore no proportion whatever to the loans; there is more money loaned in western Canada by 100 per cent than the aggregate deposits of the people there. When confronted with that difficulty what could I do? The hon. member for Regina (Mr. W. M. Martin)

says there are no western banks. On the contrary, the Union bank changed its headquarters to Winnipeg, the Northern Crown bank has its headquarters in Winnipeg, and the Vancouver bank has its headquarters in Vancouver. The Weyburn Security Bank has its headquarters at Weyburn, Saskatchewan. The Union Bank of Canada has in western Canada, with but one exception, the largest number of branches, and I once heard a rather distinguished gentleman, a director, I think, of one of the other banks, say that next to the Canadian Pacific railway western Canada owed more to the Union bank than to any other corporation for establishing branches in the West. But the volume of deposits in western Canada is insignificant compared with the loans. Let me give an illustration. The city of Calgary borrowed at one time $4,000,000 from one of the banks in Canada. The aggregate deposits in all the banks in Calgary, outside of commercial loans is, I believe, less than $4,000,000; so that that one corporation, the city of Calgary, had borrowed from one bank as much money as the aggregate deposits of all the citizens of Calgary ! There are two or three corporations in Calgary with loans running from $500,000 to $1,000,000.
I took up the question because many financial institutions in western Canada had come to the conclusion that the only way in which there could be any permanent addition to western Canada's wealth was by a policy of production. I do believe that the future of Western Canada rests entirely upon the development of a settlement plan upon a large and comprehensive scale. I do not believe that any good will be done to western Canada by merely inviting settlers into that country and sending them here, there and everywhere. I believe that in the future, after the period of readjustment and reconstruction comes in Canada, after the war and after peace, the hope of Canada lies in our being able to define, lay down and carry out a carefully prepared and well considered scheme for settlement. That scheme must involve many things which this is not the time nor the place to discuss, but to wrhich I have given some consideration; but in so far as the banking system is concerned, while I started out last fall with the idea that the banks had not treated the West fairly, after a very great deal of attention and consideration, 1 came to the conclusion that we were being loaned about twice as much as we had on deposit, and I felt that my strictures upon the banks
had been somewhat unfair. But to this extent only the banks are to blame for some of the extravagant ideas that have prevailed in western Canada. The first great impetus given to the sale of real estate in Calgary was given by a bank; in Edmonton and other places the same thing may be said. Banks have been buying lands at very exorbitant prices; they have always selected the best corners in communities, and they gave the first fictitious value to land in many western cities. I say that frankly, but the answer given to me is this-


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: The remarks of the hon. gentleman are very interesting, but it is my duty to draw his attention to rule 13, which states that in Committee of the Whole discussion must be strictly relevant to the question under consideration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I very much regret that my remarks are so wide of the subject under consideration. I shall defer to the ruling and make no further observations along the lines on which I started out. The whole business of banking in Canada at the present moment, owing to our limited capital, consists in being able to lend the savings of nine persons to the tenth, and the duty of the bank is unfortunately to determine who that tenth person shall be. Until our deposits have multiplied and increased we shall not be able to do more than make the savings of the nine persons suffice for the needs of the tenth. But presently, as our savings and deposits increase, we may be able to lend the savings of four persons to the fifth, and later the savings of two persons to the third, and possibly eventually do even better than that. But I say, in all fairness, after very careful consideration of the circumstances of the situation feeling just as the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Martin) has done, engaging sometimes in somewhat violent criticism, and assuming a somewhat censorious attitude towards the banks, that I am . convinced, first of all, that it was none of my business what they did with their paid-up capital; And, secondly, that having the deposits of various people throughout Canada they should be circumscribed and hedged round by legislation that is sound and based on proper principles, and that for the franchise they enjoy they should be held to the strictest account.
I should say this further. The Minister of Finance has shown a more intelligent desire to meet the demands of the farmers

of the West than any official that I have known for many years, and when faced with the very difficult situation that arose by reason of the shortage of funds on the part of industrial concerns, he went out of his way to endeavour so far as he possibly could to ensure that industrial development should not stop, and that the farmers in all cases where it was possible should receive small loans-because they have only asked for small loans. While his modesty may prevent him from stating it, I should like to say that the circular letter he sent to the general managers of all the~chartered banks last fall, directing their attention to the necessity of doing everything they could to extend credit to the agricultural classes in western Canada, has been fraught with good results, and has done something to alleviate the burden which the farmers have had to bear in days gone by, and has done something to make it possible for them to carry forward their operations, looking forward with a spirit of optimism to the crop that will come this fall. That is my only excuse for tresspassing on the time of this committee, and I very much regret if I have somewhat wandered from the question under consideration and spoken rather more widely than I should hav,e done.


Wilfrid Laurier: Sin no more.


William F. Carroll: When I suggested to
the Minister of Finance that a declaration or affidavit should be annexed to Schedule G, I did not have in mind the matter of registration at all, but the protection of other creditors. Under the Act as it stands there is nothing to prevent a man from borrowing two, three, or five hundred dollars from a bank and using the money for other than the purposes intended. It is true that Schedule G says that representation must be made that the seed grain will be purchased with the money advanced, but as the hon. member for Regina has pointed out that is protection to the bank. The ordinary creditor with whom the farmer deals should also have some protection, and I am sincere when I suggest to the Minister of Finance that there should be some sort of declaration or affidavit affixed to the schedule, in order to make either the bank or the borrower prove that the money will be used to purchase seed grain. I notice that by section 17 of the Bills of Sale Act for the province of Saskatchewan, in conveying future crops by a bill of sale,

The date of the purchase of seed grain, the number of bushels purchased and the price thereof per bushel must be stated in the mortgage as well as in the affidavit of bona fides.
I believe that if the declaration or affidavit were made out it would close up the loopholes or fraud, and give protection all round. The affidavit could estate the number of bushels purchased, the price per bushel, and declare that the money would be used for the proper purpose.


William Thomas White: 
Edmond Proulx: Could there not be a
limit to the amount borrowed, on the basis of the acreage sown?


William Thomas White: I have not provided for
that.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Civil Government-Post Office Department, salaries, $807,710.
['That the amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 46, respecting the Western Dominion Railway Company-Mr. R. B. Bennett-be concurred In.\nHe said: This does not materially change the Bill as we passed it. It is probably a matter of extreme caution on the part of their Honours of the Senate. They have specifically repealed a former time limit. I think our Bill repealed it by implication. However, it makes no actual change in the Bill.']
Hon. T. CHASE CASGRAIN (Postmaster General):: There is an increase of $1,800
which is solely due to statutory increases.


George Perry Graham: The permanent staff is
exactly the same as it was a year ago?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Yes.


George Perry Graham: There is another item
beneath this for contingencies and that is where the increases come in with regard to the permanent staff.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, not in the permanent staif; there is an increase of $14,000 for contingencies which I shall explain in a minute.


George Perry Graham: As I understand it the permanent staff in numbers is the same as it was last year?
Mr. CASGR.vIN:	Exactly.


George Perry Graham: I think there have been some promotions ana changes in the regular staff, although the number remains the same.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


George Perry Graham: It has been intimated by the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) that it is difficult to make promotions in the way that he would like on account of the Civil Service examination. Have the promotions in the Post Office Department been made according to the Civil Service Act? Has everybody passed the examination prescribed by the commission who has been promoted or appointed?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


George Perry Graham: The Civil Service Act
has been in force only a few years and it is not easy to get it into working order. Tlie uifficulty of having every person fall into line with a new order of things is not inconsiderable; in fact, some of tne departments nave not rallen into line yet. Has the Post Office Department adhered to the Civil Service Act in regard to its promotions and appointments?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Absolutely.


Wilfrid Laurier: Absolutely, does my hon. friend say?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: Let me call my hon. friend's attention to the item for contingencies:
Clerical and other assistance, including $50 a year to pay W. Cooch for inspecting letter carriers' boots, $48,000.
Inspecting ooots is quite advisable and proper, but that is not according to the Civil Service Act.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am told that this
has been continued from tne time of Sir William Mulock. I believe it has effected considerable saving.


Wilfrid Laurier: So long as my hon. friend follows the example of Sir William Mulock it is all right.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am only following a good example.


George Perry Graham: me question of the inspection of boots is a delicate point just now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not in the Post Office Department.
Post Office Department - contingencies. $125,000.


George Perry Graham: I presume the gentleman who inspected the bo^s was qualified, but how does the minister account for an increase of $8,000?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Out of this vote are paiu the salaries of the temporary clerks appointed by the Civil Service Commission to the inside service. It is estimated that we will require $8,000 until March 31, 1916. Then, temporary employees are taken on during the summer holidays. It frequently happens that when permanent employees are required ine Civ 1 Service Commission have no employees to give us ana therefore we have to appoint temporary hands.
I am informed that it will take this amount to carry ou through. That accounts for the $8,000.
The $6,000 increase in the cost of printing and stationery is occasioned by the increase in the parcel post rural mail delivery and should we, as we are considering, insure postal parcels, this amount of $6,000 will be absorbed.


George Perry Graham: There was a request I was going to make of some member of the Government, and perhaps as the Postmaster General is new in the Cabinet he will listen to me more kindly than some of the older hardshells. Every session we have employed in the buildings a very competent staff of stenographers to look after the correspondence of the members, and while this staff is fairly well paid during the session, yet there is a long recess, and it has occurred to me that it would be advisable for the Government to employ them as temporary clerks throughout the year when the House is not sitting. That would be following in the line that large manufacturing establishments adopt of endeavouring to keep their organizations intact. The experience these stenographers have gained during the session fits them for work the next session, and there might be quite a number of them employed during the balance of the year when temporary employees are needed. This would keep the 
organization intact; would not cost the Government any more, and I think it would be preferable to bringing in outsiders. These stenographers are all competent, so far as I have had experience of them.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The remarks of my hon. friend have fallen on willing ears. It is the custom of the department to employ these sessional employees whenever we require temporary help.


George Perry Graham: I am glad to hear that from the Postmaster General, and I wish I could convince other ministers as to the advisability of this. I understand that out of the war appropriations certain amounts have been taken to pay for the services of substitutes who have taken the places of members of the staffs of the different departments who have gone to the war. II an official goes to the war his salary is continued, but I am told that the substitute taken on in his place is paid out of the war appropriation. Is there any of that done in the Post Office?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is the intention, but it has not yet been carried into effect in the Post Office Department. At present we are paying those substitutes out of our own appropriation.


George Perry Graham: This Government is
hardly as patriotic as the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk and other large corporations, who pay their servants when they go to the war out of their ordinary funds. The Government here is practically borrowing money to pay for these substitutes. I am not criticising the system severely, but the public should understand what the Government is doing.


Mr. HAZEN:: Mr. Speaker has called
my attention to the fact that during the recess when temporary stenographers are required by the departments in Ottawa, it is the practice of the Civil Service Commissioners to send to the departments the officials who are employed here during the session, and in that way they are kept busy a great part of the time.


George Perry Graham: That is good.
Post Office

outside service, $16,677,355.25.


William F. Carroll: I want to call the attention of the minister to the mail service between the city of Sydney and the town of New Waterford. The city of Sydney is the terminus of the Intercolonial, and the town of New Waterford is about seventeen miles distant. New Waterford has a population of 7,500 or 8,000, and the mail is carried

from the city of Sydney to New Waterford by stage coach along the shore, arriving at New Waterford at twelve o'clock and leaving New Waterford again at one o'clock or half-past one. It has been suggested to me that I should bring to the attention of the department the fact that it would be more convenient for the business public of New Waterford if the mail came over the Sydney Louisburg railway in the morning, when it would reach the town of New Waterford at nine o'clock. The outgoing mail might go over the same route, the train leaving about four o'clock in the afternoon, and thus the business 'community of New Waterford would have an opportunity of replying to the letters on the same day, I commend this strongly to the minister. I want to point out that the mails between Glace Bay and the other mining districts are taken in the evening or morning over the electric tramway, and it would meet the wishes of the large community living in New Waterford if the mail could be carried across the steam railway known as the Sydney and Louisburg railway-.
I wish also to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General the fact that the post office facilities in New Waterford are not what they should be. It is a town which has sprung up in ia very short time so that perhaps the matter has not been brought to the attention of the department before, hut the post office there is absolutely too small and too cramped to accommodate that growing community. This perhaps is a matter for the Department of Public Works, and I brought it to the attention of the minister last year. There certainly should be a commodious public building in New Waterford to enable the people there to transact their postal business.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What is the population of New Waterford?


William F. Carroll: Eight thousand, I think. In the last census it does not appear at all, because it is a mining town that has sprung up since 1910. [DOT] The postmaster, against whom I have nothing to say, whom I do not know at all, runs a grocery and general store, and the post office is in the store. It is perhaps the best building he can get and it is not his fault; but I do wish that the Postmaster General would ask his inspector to visit that locality and make a report.
He certainly will see for himself that it is not a suitable place for a post office. I am not urging this for any political reason whatever. The gentleman who wrote me 86
concerning this matter will not vote for me if I happen to be put up again for election. The same is true with reference to the mayor. I hope the Postmaster General will take into consideration the matters which I have brought to his attention.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The two matters which have been brought to my attention by the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) are certainly important from the point of view of the two towns of which he has spoken. The first question to which he alluded was the service between North Sydney and New Waterford. I shall have that matter looked into. If we can accommodate the people of those two places, especially New Waterford, we will do so.
As to the post office at New Waterford which my hon. friend says will be too small for the efficient carrying on of the business of that town, we shall have the inspector go there as soon as possible and inspect the premises, and if the circumstances of the case warrant it and the premises are really too small, we will send a very strong recommendation to the Department of Public Works to have the post office put somewhere else.-


Bowman Brown Law: I would like to call the attention of the Postmaster General to the post office at Yarmouth. For several years the accommodation at that post office has been very inadequate. There are times when the mail comes in at night, when many of the patrons of the post office have to stand outside on the sidewalk, because there is not room inside. The town of Yarmouth is one of the most important towns in western Nova Scotia, having a population of about 7,000. The old Government, through my strong representations, purchased a building immediately south of the present building; but the present Government, I am sorry to say, has not made any use of that building whatever, not even renting it, which could have been done, if the Government did not propose to use it. It is quite a large building and could very easily have been converted into suitable quarters for the post office at Yarmouth. I am informed by the postmaster that at the present time there are not boxes enough to accommodate the public. If he had a larger number of boxes than he has at present, he could utilize them all. The inside staff of the post office have not proper facilities for opening the mail and for carrying on the business of the office.



The Postmaster General, of course, has just recently taken office; but I have brought this matter up for several years and, I regret, without avail. I sincerely trust that the new Postmaster General will signalize his entry into office by giving the people of Yarmouth better post office accommodation than they have at present. As the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) has said, there is no politics in connection with this matter. People should have proper post office facilities, no matter what Government is in power. That building is there, paid for and owned by the department, and it has not been used for anything but lhas been lying idle for three years. It is the duty of the Postmaster General, together with the Minister of Public Works, to see that the post office facilities at Yarmouth are enlarged
5 p.m. so as to give the people of Yarmouth the postal facilities to which they are entitled.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I thank the hon. member for his remarks. The matter to which he has referred will be looked into.


William Pugsley: I was sorry to hear the Postmaster General say, in answer to my hon. friend the member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll), that he would have an inspection made of the post office facilities at New Waterford, and that if they were not what they ought to be, he would at once place the matter before the Department of Public Works. I do not for a moment want it understood that I am opposed to giving further postal facilities to the town to which my hon. friend has referred; but the course indicated by my hon. friend the Postmaster General is one which has led to great evils which have occurred during the last three years especially, and also which occurred while I was Minister of Public Works. There is too strong a disposition on the part of the post office authorities to unload all those matters of increased postal accommodation upon the Department of Public Works. In some few cases while I was minister, I succeeded in making an arrangement under which better postal accommodation could be given to important towns without the necessity of erecting new buildings. In a case where a postmaster could not give sufficient accommodation, we allowed him a reasonable amount for renting a building, say a large flat in a building, which could easily be obtained

in most of the small towns of Canada, and by means of which ample accommodation could be given for years to come. The difficulty is that the Post Office Department will not allow anything at all to the postmasters that will enable them to give reasonable accommodation to the public. The only alternative is to go to the Public Works Department and to have a new and expensive building erected, which involves heating and a caretaker, and depreciation and an enormous expenditure, as compared with the small expense which would be necessary if the Postmaster General were to arrange with the different postmasters throughout the country to give them some small additional rent so as to enable them to provide additional accommodation.
This is what the result has been in the last three years. I want to call the attention of this Government to it, because I think it is deplorable. During Die last three years, when the late Government was in power, the total expenditure on public works was	$37,078,067.58.	This isexpenditure on both income and capital accounts.	It is	made up as	follows:1909-10,	$11,342,365.29;	1910-11,	$11,807,035.42;	1911-12,	$13,928,666.87. That includes the year 1911-12, for which the late Government is, of course, quite prepared to take the responsibility, it having had seven months of that year in the administration of affairs. Take the last three years and see the enormous increase in expenditure in the Department of Public Works:	1912-13,	$18,844,223.90;	1913-14,
$27,991,336.94; estimate for the present fiscal year, 1914-15, $39,853,598.43; total,-$86,689,159.27. A very large part of that increased expenditure has been caused by the erection of new public [DOT] buildings for post office accommodation in various parts of Canada. I am satisfied that, if an intelligent effort were made, ample postal accommodation could be given, particularly in those smaller towns throughout the country, and that millions of dollars could be saved.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: How much of those amounts is referable to public buildings in the last three years ?


William Pugsley: I cannot tell my hon. friend the exact amount. He will find in the report of the Minister of Public Works that in one year there was an increase of $7,000,000, which the accountant said was largely accounted for by an increase in the number of public buildings.


Michael Clark: Would the hon. gentleman give us some idea of how much of that was promised by the late Administration?


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman can find that out by looking at the Estimates.


Michael Clark: The hon. gentleman was Minister of Public Works at the time.


William Pugsley: I do not believe that fifteen per cent of it was promised by the late Administration.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh!


William Pugsley: I doubt if ten per cent of it was so promised. If the hon. gentleman will look at the Estimates he will see that in the year 1911-12, when I was Minister of Public Works, the total Estimates on both income and capital account of the Public Works Department were only about $18,000,000, whereas in 1913-14, that famous year when the closure was applied and the Opposition was gagged, hound and manacled, the Minister of Public Works actually came down to this House with Estimates for $47,000,000-some $3,000,000 more than the total revenues of Canada when the Liberal party came into power in 1896. I do not intend to make a speech upon this, or use it for a party purpose at this time; but I do invite the earnest and careful consideration of the Postmaster General to this matter. I do believe that in hundreds, if not thousands, of small towns throughout Canada, by making a little additional allowance to postmasters, they will be able to give suitable accommodation by renting portions of buildings now being put up by private parties or banks, thus saving millions of dollars to the public.


Edmond Proulx: I endorse the suggestion of the hon. member for St. John City (Mr. Pugsley). In 1908, instead of asking for a public building in my town, I asked the Post Office Department for an increased allowance for rent, fuel and light for the postmaster. I could not obtain it. But I easily convinced by hon. friend from St. John City, who was Minister of Public Works, of the soundness of my proposition, and obtained an allowance of $125 from the Public Works Department. With this allowance I provided accommodation which is just as suitable and just as ample as could be afforded by a public building.


Mr. EDWARDS:: In what town is that?


Edmond Proulx: L'Orignal.
86*


William Cameron Edwards: What is the population?


Edmond Proulx: It was 1,327 by the last census.


William Cameron Edwards: What is the revenue?


Edmond Proulx: I do not know exactly,
but it is enough to afford tne postmaster about $800. His allowance for rent, fuel and light was $75. Now he gets in addition $125 fro. i the Public Works Department, which makes $200. With this he pays his rent for post office accommodation and also for his residence which is in the same building. A gentleman in my town built a block for the bank and post office and the accommodation afforded, as I have said is just as good as if we had a public building, and it costs the Government only $125 a year over the former allowance.


William Humphrey Bennett: That shows how remiss the hon. member for Prescott (Mr. Proulx; was in looking after the interests of his constituents. He speaks of a town with a population of 1,300 and without a public building. Fancy the hon. member sitting idly in his place and seeing the then Minister of Public Works erecting buildings in villages in Ontario with only seven hundred of a population.
Mr. PUGftLEY:	What town does the
hon. gentleman refer to?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not a town at all; the
village of Milverton, of unhappy memory for the hon. gentleman (Mr. Pugsley).


William Pugsley: A very nice little town.


Edmond Proulx: My hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) is .still more remiss, because he has allowed the Minister of Public Works whom he supports to put up a public building in Hampton, N.B., which has a smaller population tnan the place to which he has just referred.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I want to discuss a
dismissal.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I do not wonder that hon. members laugh, because this is the first time I have had to discuss a dismissal in this House. But this was so serious, so glaring, so completely without any reason whatever, that I believe it should be brought to the attention of this committee. Since I was elected to represent the constituency of Medicine Hat and during the time the patronage was handled by my opponent and by another gentleman in whose hands he

placed it, I had no reason to complain of dismissals until this moment. There were practically none until six or eight months ago, when the patronage passed into the hands of some gentlemen who were bound to get rid of every Liberal office holder in the city of Lethbridge, and they have practically succeeded. I do not place the responsibility on the present Postmaster General; he was not the occupant of the office when this dismissal took place. From 1885 until last October, Mr. E. N. Higinbotham was in the postal service in Lethbridge. He became connected with it when the office was first established in that city. He was appointed postmaster in 1906, and had filled that position to the satisfaction of all classes of the community. On the 13th of October, he received this curt notice from the post office inspector at Calgary.
I am directed to inform you that Mr. Alvin Ripley has been appointed to succeed you in the postmastership at Lethbridge and that it is proposed to transfer the office to his charge as soon as the necessary preliminaries can be arranged.
This was the only notice that Mr. Higinbotham received. No reasons were given for the change. There was indignation throughout the city of Lethbridge when the an-nouncment was made. That feeling was not confined to Liberals but was just as strong among the Conservatives of that city apart from the patronage committee. A petition was circulated, not among the people generally, but among the Conservatives in the city of Lethbridge. It was addressed to the Postmaster General. Every person who signed that petition was a supporter of the Conservative party in 1911, and so far as I know is still a supporter of that party. They addressed to the Government the following petition, which I wish to read to show you that Mr. Higinbotham held the esteem and respect of the Conservatives of Lethbridge, that his services as postmaster were satisfactory to the people, and that there were no charges that could be preferred against him as a partisan or as an inefficient official. The petition reads as follows:
Lethbridge, Alta., Oct. 19, 1914.
The undersigned, who have no hesitancy in declaring that they are supporters of the Government at Ottawa, desire to bring to your attention the proposed removal of Mr. B. N. Higinbotham from the position of postmaster at Lethbridge.
We believe that there should be no change in the postmaster. Mr. Higinbotham has given satisfactory service, and we can learn of no complaint whatever from the public. As a matter of fact, no charge has been made against Mr .Higinbotham, who has simply been noti-

fled a successor has been appointed. During the time , he has been postmaster, we do not know of any offensive political conduct on his part. He has been a courteous, painstaking official, giving the duties of postmaster his undivided attention. We feel that it is a grave mistake to remove him from the posititon under these circumstances. We are only too willing to suggest that an investigation should be held, because we feel that an inquiry would establish there was no warrant whatever for the action which it is proposed to take in the case of Mr. Higinbotham.
We are bringing this matter to your attention, as we feel that in cases of this kind it has been your policy to refrain from removing from office men who .have conducted themselves properly.
This petition was signed by about sixty supporters of the Conservative party and was taken to Ottawa by two Conservatives. They made the trip from Lethbridge to Ottawa to present the case to the Government, and came back with some hope that Mr. Higinbotham would retain his position. But after a month of the first notice the office was transferred to the new postmaster. You will observe that in the petition a request was made for an investigation, and I think it had been announced as the policy of this Government that investigations would be granted in cases of this kind. But no investigation was granted in this case. No opportunity was given to Mr. Higinbotham to establish that he. had given efficient service and that he had not been a partisan in any way. Let me say that the only other two dismissals of postmasters that I know of in the constituency of Medicine Hat were the dismissal of the postmaster at Grassy Lake, a small place of probably 100 or 200 inhabitants, and the dismissal at Magrath, a place of 900 or 1,000. In these instances the postmasters were given an investigation, and were removed only after an investigation had been held. But in the city of Lethbridge, where a gentleman held a position in the service from 1885 until 1914, no investigation was granted; no charges were preferred against him and the Conservatives of the city of Lethbridge protested against the Change and sent a deputation to Ottawa to register their protest. I say that there is no excuse for this dismissal. I asked the Postmaster General for the reasons of the removal of Mr. Higinbotham and my question was answered in the House on March 8. I asked:
1.	What was the reason for the dismissal ot Edward N. Higinbotham, as postmaster at Lethbridge, Alberta?
2. Was an investigation asked for?
3. Was an investigation held?
4.	If so, what was the result of the investigation?

To this the Postmaster General (Mr. Cas-grain) replied:
1.	On the 23rd September, 1914, the departmental officers were instructed by the Postmaster General that as soon as the Lethbridge public building was ready for occupation it was the intention to appoint a new postmaster, and the superintendent was requested to keep in touch with the progress made, and as soon as it was ready for the department to take possession to inform the Postmaster General so that the change could be made without delay. This was done in accordance with instructions, and the Post Office Inspector, on the 9th October, was instructed to make the change.
2.	In a petition in favour of the late postmaster, which was received at the department in November last, it was suggested that an investigation should be made, but the appointment to the postmastership and the transfer of the post office to the new incumbent had already been made.
3.	No.
4.	See answer to No. 3.
The argument here is that when the Government build a new post office the new post office must be equipped with a new postmaster, provided that the old postmaster is of Liberal politics. I am sure the present Postmaster General is not going to carry out a policy of that kind. Mr. Hig-inbotham was an able official, a man who had been commended by his superiors; and he was succeeded, not by a gentleman who had had experience in the postal service, but by a gentleman who was managing a retail business in the city of Lethbridge, who knew no more about directing a post office than a child. Another statement made in reply to my question was that an investigation was not granted because the appointment to the postmastership and the transfer of the post office to the new incumbent had already been made. I say that that is not the case, and the facts do not bear that statement out. The transfer had not been made when the request came from the Conservatives of Lethbridge that this removal should not take place. The transfer did not take place until November 23. The new post office was unoccupied and Mr. Ripley did not become postmaster until November 23; and this deputation came to Ottawa during October and asked that Mr. Higinbotham should be retained in office. I understand that the deputation received some encouragement when at Ottawa, that some members of this Government were very much shocked to know that action of this kind had been taken when there was no warrant for it. I understand that very strong expressions were used by some members of the Government. There was a
delay in the transfer of the office from the old postmaster to the new postmaster and the new post office was not occupied for over a month from the time the notice come to Mr. Higinbotham that Mr. Ripley was to succeed him as postmaster. I am dealing with this case at some length because in my particular section of the country it has aroused a good deal of feeling and resentment, not amongst Liberals alone, but amongst all classes of people except those who think the spoils system should be generally adopted. I have here a resolution passed by the Presbytery of Macleod, a church organization which is interested simply in the welfare of the country and of our public service. I read it to you to establish that this particular dismissal aroused a great deal of feeling amongst the people of southern Alberta. Their petition reads:
Tlie Presbytery of Macleod beg respectfully to call the attention of the Right Honourable, the Premier of Canada, to the following:
1.	That there are clear evidences in certain governmental quarters of an attempt to perpetuate the system of distributing political offices among party supporters, which is antiquated, discredited, and hurtful alike to national loyalty and national effeiency.
2.	That on the occasion of his last visit to Lethbridge, Sir Robert L. Borden laid down in public the principle that no civil servant should be dismissed unless on good grounds and after fair investigation.
3.	That in spite of this declaration, Mr. E. N. Higinbotham, of Lethbridge, has received notice of his summary dismissal from the postmastership of that city, without reason or excuse being given.
4.	That Mr. Higinbotham is one of the best known and most highly respected citizens in southern Alberta, being one of the pioneers of Lethbridge.
Further that he has been in the service of the Post Office Department almost continuously since the year 1885, Ailing the position of postmaster for the past eight years.
Further that during all that time he has given most efficient and satisfactory service and commands the confidence of the entire public as well as the loyalty and devotion of his staff.
And further that he has not participated in politics since his appointment to office.
5.	Further that in view of these things this Presbytery do emphatically protest in the name of justice and of good government against this flagrant procedure, and request that the Premier give some explanation of this action and will take such steps as will rectify this wrong.
In so protesting the Presbytery assures the Premier that they are voicing a sentiment which prevails very widely throughput the Lethbridge district.
I have read that resolution merely to show that there was a strong feeling throughout the district over this dismissal, which it

was felt was not warranted. I have tried to establish here to-day, that Mr. Higin-botham was removed without any reason being given, that an investigation was asked for by sixty-five or more petitioners who felt that he should be allowed to retain the office, that this investigation was refused, and that the transfer did not take place for nearly a month after that investigation was asked for, so that there was plenty of time to have held an investigation. Mr. Higin-botham is a type of official that any government should be proud to have in its service. He gives full attention to his office,' and has, during the whole period he has been in the postal service at Lethbridge, had the reputation of giving the public an excellent service, and courteous treatment. I do not think that the department had one complaint to make between 1885 to 1914 about the administration of the post office at Lethbridge. I consider this dismissal as one of the most cold-blooded that has taken place since this Government came into power in 1911. There was abso'-itfiy no warrant for it whatever, and when the simple request for an investigation was made by their own friends, this Government refused to grant an investigation. The statements made in that petition and in the resolution are all non-partisan; they are not made by Liberals protesting against the dismissal of of a Liberal, but by Conservatives or by a representative body like the Presbyterian organization for southern Alberta. I claim that no defence can be offered for this dismissal; and it certainly is no encouragement to the men who enter the postal service to feel that, after they have served the public for as many years as Mr. Higinbot-ham did, and have given good service and kept out of party politics, they will be bound to lose their positions in the end because a few Conservatives want the offices for friends of their own.


William Cameron Edwards: I understand that my hon. friend came into the House in 1911, and it is therefore just possible that he may not be as familiar as some of us with the tactics pursued previous to 1911 by the party which he supports. The hon. gentleman has referred to this as a case without any precedent, and I dare say he is quite sincere in that statement. But I should like to call another case to his attention, which I brought up in th$ House between 1908 and 1911, I cannot recollect the exact year. It was the case of the dismissal of the postmaster at Souris, Manitoba, in the constituency which was then represented by
CM. Buchanan.]
Sir Clifford Sifton. By the way, I may say that they built a new post office in Souris and placed a new postmaster there, and dismissed the man who had been postmaster in Souris ever since the first letter and newspaper came into that village-it was a village then, but it has since been incorporated as a town. The dismissed postmaster was John Dolmage, who was one of the first settlers in that part of the West; his was the first house erected in the village; he had lived there for years with his family, and had taken an active interest in municipal affairs and in the general affairs of the community; he was highly respected by all, and in the very year that he was dismissed by the Liberal Government without one particle of reason being given, he was chosen by acclamation to oe mayor of Souris. That shows the esteem in which he was held. I brought this case to the then Postmaster General, the Hon. Mr. Lemieux, and what reason did he give for this dismissal? I will not attempt to quote his exact words, though thev can easily be found on Hansard, but the substance of his reason was that he had been asked to dismiss John Dolmage by the member for that constituency, Sir Clifford Sifton, and in his estimation that was a sufficient reason for the dismissal. And that was the only reason he gave. There was abso'utely no investigation whatever. When the new post office w.as completed they put in the new man, and dismissed John Dolmage, who had been postmaster for Souris ever since the first house was erected in that village; and dismissed him summarily without any investigation, and without a shadow of reason being given except that Sir Clifford Sifton asked that it be done.


Michael Clark: I just wish to say a sentence or two in reply to the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), and while I am on my feet I should like to say that I know Mr. Higinbotham, and I can say that everything that my hon. friend (Mr. Buchanan) has said of him as a gentleman well worthy of filling any office is absolutely true according to my own knowledge. I want to point out to my hon. friend from Frontenac that perhaps it is not well to be too severe on the former Postmaster General because he followed what is the method pretty generally followed by ministers of departments in regard to this iniquitous system of patronage, of which many of us on both sides of the

House are tired. We should not be too severe on the former Postmaster General in this case, because he failed to detect that Sir Clifford Sifton was properly a very bad case, largely because he was gravitating towards a camp where that sort of thing has evidently been done up to the present time.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I should like to say a few words in answer to the remarks of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) in regard to post offices and post office accommodation. Of course, the committee knows that there are two kinds of postmasters: in some parts of the country postmasters have to furnish their own premises; and in others post office buildings are furnished by the Government. When a member of this House says from his seat in Parliament that the accommodation in his city or town is inadequate, or that inefficient service is being given, I think it is my duty to have the matter investigated, and to send down an inspector of the department to see whether or not there is room for improvement; and if the city or town in which the post office is situated is one in which the Government has built or should build a post office, under the rules which have been followed for a long while by both parties, it seems to me that if the necessity for it is shown to exist, I shall be justified in trying to impress on my colleague the Minister of Public Works the necessity of erecting a suitable building there for a post office.-On the other hand, if this is a town in which the accommodation is furnished by the postmaster himself, the inspector of post offices will be able to inform me whether the premises are sufficient, or whether I should call upon the postmaster to furnish better accommodation.
I now come to the case which has been presented with great moderation by the hon. member for M'edicine Hat (Mr. Buchanan). The facts are these. When I came into the department Mr. Higin-botham had. been dismissed and replaced. It occurred, I believe, on the 13th October. I was not sworn in on that date. My hon. friend was kind enough to say that he does not place on my shoulders persona'ly the responsibility for having removed Mr. Higinbotham. I believe that everything my hon. friend has said about Mr. Higinbotham is true and that he was an efficient officer. It is only fair and just to him that I should make that statement to the committee. The reason for Mr. Higinbot-ham's removal from office is a
reason which was given as a good and sufficient reason in times gone by before this Administration came into power. It is that when a post office is removed from an old building to a new one the incumbent of the office is changed. Of course, as my hon. friend says, I am not personally responsible for the removal of Mr. Higinbotham or for the appointment of his .successor. Constitutionally, I am obliged to take the responsibility for the removal. I do not know whether my hon. friend is quite correct when he says that an investigation was asked for before the facts as stated had been accomplished. There seems to be some difference of opinion between my hon. friend and myself as to the date of the removal of the postmaster. According to the information which I have, the postmaster was removed and replaced on the 13th October. When this deputation came to Ottawa the postmaster had been removed and his successor had been appointed. The only reason for his removal, as far as I can ascertain, was the change in the public building. There was no necessity for an investigation. I do not for one moment want to say that I am not constitutionally responsible for this removal, but the deputation came at a time when I was -absent, because I had to be elected to this House, As far as I am concerned, the rule laid down by the right -hon. the leader of the Government will be followed by me, that no officer in my department will be removed unless there is a good and sufficient cause for his removal, -and unless -an investigation is held which will prove that such a cause exists.


William Ashbury Buchanan: I am not holding the present Postmaster General responsible, but I do hold the Government responsible, because -the facts of this case were presented to the members of the Government, and the policy of the Government has been announced in times past. It has been announced, by the Prime Minister that good and sufficient reasons -must be offered before an official shall be removed. In this particular case there were no reasons of any kind, but this gentleman was removed in the face of the fact that prominent and influential Conservatives in the city of Lethbridge believed that the removal of Mr. Higinbotham was such a discredit to the Government that -they sent a deputation down here' to Ottawa to wait upon the Government and protest against it. They came here on October 13, and interviewed the Government, and it was not until November 23 that the change
13G8

took place. During the interval between October 13 and November 23 the investigation could have been held if the Government had been willing. At the opening of the House this session I moved for the production of papers in connection with the removal of Mr. Higinbotham. No papers have been produced. As I understand it, there are no papers in existence. The dismissal simply took place through the direction of the late Postmaster General to some official that when the Lethbridge post office was ready a new postmaster should be put in charge. That is what I understand from the information given to members of the deputation who visited Ottawa to ask that an investigation should be held. I claim that the Government is responsible for the dismissal and that its attitude	in regard to this matter
is an	entire contradiction of the
announcement of the Prime Minister in regard to the policy of the Government, which is that good and sufficient reasons must be offered before an official is dismissed. The statement has been made also that where a member, or members, supporting the Government on the other side of the House ask for a dismissal it will be made. But no member asked for the dismissal of this gentleman, it was not asked for by the defeated candidate^ it was simply asked for by the head of "the Conservative organization in Lethbridge, and it was granted. The leading and most influential Conservatives in Lethbridge protested against this dismissal, which is an entire and direct contradiction of the policy of the Government as frequently announced by the Prime Minister.


Mr. McCREA:: I am not rising to complain of any dismissals in my locality, but I want to lay some facts before the Postmaster General, and perhaps when he hears them he will decide that he should make some dismissals. Some little time ago I asked a question in the House. I did not get an altogether satisfactory answer, and I want to get an explanation now. On the 18th March I asked the following question:
1.	How many days' actual service has A. Genest, an employee in the Post Office Department at Sherbrooke, given to said position from April 1, 1912 up to present date?
The answer is as follows:
From the 1st April, 1912, to 15th March, 1915, the records show that Mr. Genest reported for duty 481 days.
I did not ask how many days Mr. Genest reported for duty; I asked how many days

of actual service he had given in his capacity as an employee of the Post Office Department. I further asked:
What is the total amount of salary paid to him for his services during the said period?
And the answer is:
The total amount of salary paid for his services to the 28th February, was $3,973.31.
If my information is correct, Mr. Genest's actual services, if any, were very limited. I understand his reporting for duty consists of going to the post office, the same as any of the other citizens, to get his mail and while there dropping into the post office department. That may be counted reporting for service, but that is not actual service. I would like to get an answer to my question. How many days' actual service has "he given to the position since April 1, 1912, to date? If my information is correct, Mr. Genest, who is supposed to be in delicate health, is an insurance agent and is doing business as such. If he is able to act as an insurance agent he should be able to do his duty as an official in the post office or resign. He should not hold two positions, because there are other men who are earning their living in the insurance business. It is not fair for a man to be in the service of the people and to receive a salary as such, and at the same time be acting as an insurance agent and getting a revenue from that source too. That is my information, but I do not know whether it is correct or not. There is one thing that I do know, and that is that the Government have established a post office inspection bureau in Sherbrooke, and I think it ought to be easy for this bureau to find out whether this information is correct or not. If correct, the case should be dealt with. I am not asking for the dismissal of Mr. Genest, but I do not think any man in the public service should hold two positions. If it is true that he is acting as an insurance agent he should resign. If he is in delicate health and is not able to do any other work, I do not ask for his dismissal.	*


An hon. MEMBER:: How long has he
held the job.


Francis N. McCrea: For a good many years.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I see by the record that Mr. Genest is an old employee of the Post Office Department, having been appointed in 1893 and made permanent in 1895. This is the first intimation I have had that Mr. Genest was an insurance agent. My information was that Mr. Genest was in deli-

cate health but that there is hope of his recovery. I would ask my hon. friend (Mr. McCrea) if it would be fair that-I should treat this old employee harshly by dismissal rather than allow him to go along for the present, without perhaps doing as much work as the other employees, so that he might recover his health and go back to the duties of his office. I leave that to the good heart and good feeling of my hon. friend. If Mr. Genest is an insurance agent and has been carrying on business as such, that would seem to be evidence that his illness was not as we were told, and of course such a state of things would have to be put an end to.


Francis N. McCrea: I have not asked for Mr. Genest's dismissal and neither have I said that I have positive proof that he was acting as an insurance agent. I said that was my information, and I am asking the Postmaster General to investigate the matter.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I certainly shall.


Francis N. McCrea: My information is that Mr. Genest's health has been so recovered for some'time that'he has been able to act as an insurance agent and is receiving a revenue from that source. I am not asking for his dismissal, but I do say that if he is capable of acting as an insurance agent and derives revenue therefrom, he should confine himself to the work for which this Government is paying him.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I think you are perfectly right.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I wish to cite an
instance which has occurred in my constituency and which is somewhat similar to that mentioned by my hon. friend from Medicine Hat (Mr. Buchanan), but very much worse I believe. Of course, the tu quoque argument is an old argument, and I do not say it is a good argument, nor do I say it is a bad argument, but it has the merit at all events of being often used. My hon. friend from Frontenac (j.u.r. Edwards) referred to a case which occurred in the town of Souris, which is not in my constituency, and he attributed it to the influence of Sir Clifford Sifton. At one time my constituency was part of Sir Clifford Sifton's constituency, and when the Liberals came into power he simply turned out all the postmasters in tnat district. I have about sixty-five postmasters in the constituency, and I can say that only five out of the sixty-five have been changed since 1911.
The case to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is this:	Mr. Alexander McKnight was postmaster in tne town of ooissevain since the very day of iis inception. He was not only postmaster, but he built at his own expense on the main street of the town and in the centre of that streeit a splendid stone building, the lower flat of which was entirely given up to the post office, and he fitted it up with the very best furniture for that purpose. We then had a post office that certainly was a credn to any town of the size of Boissevain. Mr. McKnight was absolutely non-partisan. I could challenge any man in the town or in tne constituency to state that they ever even heard Mr. MeKnignt men,.on politics. In fact, he used to annoy me considerably, on account of the trouble I had with him, because he would not even vote for a school trustee or in the municipal election. He absolutely kept his hanus clean-perhaps I should use the word clear-of all polices in every sense of the term. He was a man in whom the people of the town had the utmost confidence; no more highly-respected citizen ever lived. Well, what occurred? In 1908 or previous to that Mr. McKnight received one afternoon notice that he would have two days to get out of the office and make room for his successor. Then occurred, somewhat similar to w^hat occurred at Lethbridge. The leading Liberal citizens, including among them the man who represented Turtle Mountain constituency and two defeated Liberal candidates, protested against the removal of Mr. McKnight from that post office. They went so far as to do exactly what my hon. friend said they did in the case of Lethbridge, and they sent a deputation to Ottawa, but it was of no avail. I remember a statement made by my partner particularly, who is a good Liberal and none the worse for that, and he said: there is no danger of Mr. McKnight being turned out; the Liberal party does not do things that way. In due time Mr. McKnight was turned out, and the Liberals held a meeting and raised money and made Mr. McKnight a splendid presentation, and every leading Liberal in that district, or so many as could get into my house where the presentation was made, made the statement that it was the last time they would ever vote for Sifton. Most of the hon. gentlemen present are old enough politicians to know that this is a promise that is very quickly forgotten. However, I want to put the facts of his case on record. I do not

know that anything so lhars'h as the treatment of Mr. McKnight ever before occurred in Canada. In view of what occurred then, I will go so far as to say that my experience up to the present in my own constituency in connection with this Government is that they are entirely too sensitive about ohanging postmasters or any other Liberal officials.


William Pugsley: I think the Postmaster General has elaborated somewhat and explained what was rather deficient in his previous statement. I understood him to say he would not take any steps to have the post office accommodation improved under the administration of the Post Office Department, but that he would rather look to the Department of Public Works for that. His last remarks on the subject seem rather to indicate that if in the town referred to he found, after consultation with the Deputy Postmaster General, that increased accommodation should be given, he would see that that increased accommodation is afforded. That is where the difficulty is as between the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works, and it is that difficulty which causes large expense in the Department of Public Works. When I was Minister of Public Works it was the same as I suppose it is now: the Post Office Department wants to have as large a net revenue as possible, and it refuses to make any sufficient allowances to postmasters to enable them to give increased accommodation, and so it gets the Public Works Department to erect buildings. The salaries paid the postmasters are small, and so the postmasters only go to as little expense for rental as they can manage to get along with. My point is, that instead of encouraging or insisting upon the Department of Public Works erecting new buildings, which entail all the expense of caretaking and heating and depreciation, if the Post Office Department would allow one hundred dollars, or a hundred and fifty dollars, or two hundred dollars a year, or a little more in special cases, there would be secured that increased accommodation which for a good many years would be entirely satisfactory to the people of the community.
That is what I want to impress upon my hon. friend the Postmaster General. Let him not look entirely to having a surplus revenue in the Post Office Department, but let him look to the accommodation of the public. I hope my hon. friend will be more successful than J was at times in 
urging the Postmaster General to do this very thing. I thought that in many cases if he would allow the postmasters a small additional amount so as to enable them to secure additional accommodation, the public would be thoroughly satisfied, and the country in the aggregate, because the country is large, and there are so many thousands of post offices, would save millions of dollars.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am very much obliged to my hon. friend for his advice. I will try to follow it; and if my hon. friend comes back to the Treasury benches, if he is not very old then, I hope he will put into practice what he is preaching now.
Mr. PUGSLEY': It is very good advice.


George Ewan McCraney: Will the minister make a statement as to the continuation of the franking privilege to the Aberdeen Association? Some years ago, under the auspices of Lady Aberdeen, an association was formed in the city of Ottawa, with branches throughout the West, to distribute literature amongst the settlers in the remote parts of Canada. The franking privilege was given to that association. Volumes of literature were donated to the association, and the ladies at the different centres in the West attended to the distribution of it. From my knowledge of the association, its work in distributing that literature is a very worthy one. At the end of last year the ladies in Saskatoon were informed that the franking privilege would be withdrawn; and as they had a great quantity of literature on hand, they asked me about the matter. I wired to the Post Office Department asking if this were the case and for all information. From that day to this I have not had any response to my wire except an acknowledgment of its receipt. I am told that later the ladies had word from one of their branches in Canada that the franking privilege would be done away with on the first of February of this year.
I understand that is not the case. At any rate, as the matter is so uncertain and as the Post Office Department has given no information, the ladies of Saskatoon have disbanded their association because they cannot undertake the distribution of the quantity of literature that they have on hand and pay the postage on it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have heard of this
association before, and I know that it is a most excellent one and one which does very good work. The work done by this associa-

tion consists in this, that the members of the association collect literature from all parts of the country and distribute it in the remote parts of Canada, where libraries do not exist and where it is difficult to obtain literature. For some time this literature has been distributed through the mails gratis. This was easier to do and not so -expensive before the change came as to the -carrying of the mails by railway. Before I get through with my Estimates, I will explain to the House how it is that now we pay much more for carrying the mails by rail than we used to do. The mail matter has increased enormously; and if we were to give the franking privilege of the mails to all the deserving institutions, not only would our revenue decrease very rapidly, but we would have such an enormous mail to carry that it ^vould cost us tremendous sums of money to carry it. I received the communication to which my hon. friend alluded, and I received some deputations of ladies and gentlemen who impressed upon me the desirability of renewing the franking privilege. On the one hand I must say that, after hearing the gentleman, and especially the ladies who addressed me, I would have wished to be able to assure them that I would continue giving them the franking privilege; but, on the other hand, the committee will understand that I have a duty to perform, and that, whatever may be my feelings upon the subject and whatever may be the very good aims that those charitable associations may have in view, I have to protect the revenues of the post office, and I am not able to say yet whether or not it will be possible for me to continue giving the Aberdeen Association, however deserving it may be, the franking privilege. A certain period has been fixed by agreement between me and certain persons who have interviewed me upon the subject.


George Ewan McCraney: The minister said that some time he would be able to make some definite announcement. The work of the ' association has been paralyzed by the indefiniteness of the matter.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: A very important deputation from Toronto waited upon me upon this subject, and I gave it the answer that my hon. friend is asking for now, and I will communicate to him later.


William Pugsley: Will the minister be
good enough to give us a statement of what persons enjoy the franking privilege now?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will have a statement made and will lay it on the table.
At six o'clock, the House resumed and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



Mr. LANCASTER moved:: That the amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 36, to incorporate Northern Pacific and British Columbia Railway Company-Mr. Taylor-be referred to Select Standing Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines.
He said:	This is a peculiarly worded
amendment, and I think it should be scanned by the committee before the House concurs in it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That the amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 46, respecting the Western Dominion Railway Company-Mr. R. B. Bennett-be concurred In.
He said: This does not materially change the Bill as we passed it. It is probably a matter of extreme caution on the part of their Honours of the Senate. They have specifically repealed a former time limit. I think our Bill repealed it by implication. However, it makes no actual change in the Bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 81, respecting the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Green.

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Post Office-Outside service-Salaries and allowances, $7,538,711.75.
['I have a statement\nupon this question which I will read:\nThe lock for closing mail bags now and for the past twenty years in use in the service having outlived its usefulness, the Ontario Equipment Company In 1912 submitted to the department a lock for which they had obtained patent rights from the inventors, and the firm manufactured 10,000 of these locks for the de partment, it being the intention to have this number of locks tried out in certain portions of the Dominion before giving any further orders.\nWhen this lot of locks was delivered, however, they were found from a post office standpoint defective and unsuitable for the service, and could therefore not be entertained, the department refusing to pay for the same, and the whole lot (10,000) was rejected and returned to the Ontario Equipment Company.\nThe company then submitted a similar lock, but greatly improved and overcoming all the objections found to the former one, besides being somewhat less costly than the first lock submitted; but, profiting by past experience, before placing an order for this improved lock the department submitted a certain number to practical post office men, as well as to expert locksmiths, in various cities throughout the Dominion. The unanimous report from all these officers was so much in favour of this', '\n\nlock that the department placed an order for 10,000 of them with the contractor, and is now engaged in the organization of a system for the introduction of this lock into the service gradually, it being the intention to thereby spread the necessarily heavy expenditure in connection with the introduction of the new lock through the whole service, over a period of several years.\nThis lock is repaired free of charge, under a guarantee, for a period of two years, hut owing to the simplicity of the construction, the repairing of this lock after that period is hoped to be virtually nil. The average cost of obtaining new locks and repairing old ones has been between $8,000 and $10,000 annually, and this sum will be quite sufficient for the gradual introduction of the new lock, without increasing the average annual expenditure whatever.\nThe lock costs 75 cents and the key 18 cents, making a total of 93 cents. The lock formerly used cost 80 cents and the key 20, or $1 complete. We gained 7 cents on each lock, and we have a much better lock.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Casgrain, the House adjourned at 10.52 p.m.\nWednesday, March 24, 1915.']
George William Kyte: Has the Postmaster General made any arrangements with the mail carriers for extra allowance on account of the parcel post they are obliged to convey?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No; the contract made between the mail carriers and the Post Office Department provides that nothing is allowed for extra mail matter which they carry, and until now we have not found any case in which we could grant an extra allowance. Some cases seem meritorious, and these we are investigating. The contract

provides that an allowance proportionate may be made to the mail carriers, if they are obliged, for instance, to use more horses or vehicles, or if they are put to some other extra expense. Up to the present time, there was only one case, I think, and that we are examining into it to see if we should grant any extra allowance.


George William Kyte: It appears that the inauguration of the parcel post system has resulted in application by the railways to the department for an extra allowance, I think, of nearly a million dollars. I presume the railways are carrying the mails under contract, as the couriers are; and as the department has given this extra amount to the railway companies-at least so I understand, though I may be misinformed-I would suggest that whatever treatment is accorded the railway companies in this matter should be extended to the mail couriers. I know of several instances where mail couriers have to carry a much greater hulk of mail matter than before the inauguration of the parcel post system. I have several cases in mind of couriers Which would make out a good case for extra remuneration for their services. I discussed the matter with the former Postmaster General a year ago, and he said the post office inspectors would be asked to report on each case. Mail couriers in my county have asked for an extra allowance, but no investigation has yet taken place. It might be that the extra allowance in such cases would not be very great; but the fact that the couriers are under contract and technically obliged to do this extra work is no reason why their application should not receive consideration. Even if a courier is not obliged to buy an extra horse, yet he has an extra load to carry and the service is much more difficult to perform. At certain seasons the roads are bad and travelling difficult and the extra weight of mail matter carried by the couriers should be a ground for extra remuneration. The greater the amount of work the greater should he the extra compensation. I think there is scarcely a courier in the province of Nova Scotia who could not make out a case that he is performing extra work by reason of the parcel post system and that extra compensation should be given.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The question raised by the hon. gentleman is an important and interesting one. It has already occupied the attention of the department. The hon. gentleman will remember that a year and a half ago the rates to the railways were changed, and the railways obtain now a

much larger allowance for hauling the mail than they did before. That is not altogether due to the parcel post system but to the fact that the mail matter generally has increased considerably. Before the time to which I have referred the railways were paid $132 per car per track mile; now, they receive 16 cents per mile for a postal car; 9 cents for cars half postal and half express, and 4 cents for a baggage car. This means a great increase in the expenditure of the department-about a million dollars. The railways have applied for additional remuneration because the weight of mail matter is increasing all the time, but they have not yet received it. The department has had several interviews with the railway officials, but we have come to no conclusion. If the mail matter becomes so voluminous that we have to increase the amount already given to the railway corrfyanies it will be only fair that any cases in which the mail couriers can justify their claims, these claims should be entertained by the department; and the hon. member and the committee may rest assured that every case will receive the most favourable consideration and that, consistent with the duty which I owe to the public, I shall see whether ea-ffi case is one in which the allowance should be increased.


George William Kyte: I can point out a case in which the Postmaster General would be justified in granting an extra allowance to a mail courier, that is, the contract between Grandigue Ferry and West Arichat in my county. A steamship subsidized by the Federal and Provincial Governments plies between Mulgrave, the terminus of the Intercolonial railway at the strait of Canso, and the towns of West Arichat and Arichat. During the summer the mail is carried by the steamboat to these points, but in the fall, when the steamer does not make daily connections with the trains, the mails have to be carried by the courier from Grandigue Ferry to Arichat. Owing to the inauguration of the parcel post system the volume and weight of mail has increased very considerably. Some months ago the old contract lapsed and new tenders were called for. I asked a question which was answered a few days ago, the question and answer being as follows:	-
Mr. Kyte:
1.	When did the contract expire for carrying the mails between Grandigue Ferry, Arichat and West Arichat, recently held by Joseph Parker?
2.	Were tenders asked for in respect of this service during the year 1914?
3.	If so, when were notices calling for tenders

posted, and what was the last date for receiving such tenders?
4.	Prom whom were tenders received, and what is the amount of each?
5.	(a) Who performed the service since the expiration of Parker's contract, (b) and what is the amount paid for same?
6.	Why was not the contract awarded to the lowest tenderer?
7.	What was the amount of Parker's contract ?
8.	When will the new contract be awarded?
Mr. Casgrain:
1.	31st December, 1914.
2 and 3. Tenders were invited twice. The first notices were dated 20th August, 1914, and tenders were due at the department on 2nd October, 1914. The second notices were dated 3rd November, 1914, and the tenders were due on 18th December, 1914.
4.	The tenders in both cases were considered excessive, and the department has been endeavouring to obtain more reasonable offers. It is not considered advisable to give the names and amounts of the tenders until the new contract has been awarded and executed.
5.	(a) Casie Parker, executrix of the late
Joseph Parker, who was responsible for the service, under the former contract, from 1st April, 1913, to 31st December, 1914.	(b) $3
per day.
S. Answered by No. 4.
7.	$495 per annum.
8.	As soon as a reasonable offer has been received.
After the notices calling for tenders had been posted, I understand some five or six tenders were sent into the Department. It is quite true that the lowest tender was considerably higher than the amount of the old contract, and I understand that is the ground upon which the Department refused to award the contract. The old contract was for $495, and had been running for a great many years. The parcel post system was inaugurated something over a year ago, and the courier complained to me several times that the bulk of mail had increased very considerably owing to the parcel post. He felt that he was, in all fairness, entitled to some additional remuneration. It is obvious that the service could not be properly performed now at the old rate, and, in view of the parcel post, the additional amount asked does not seem excessive; so there is no reasonable excuse for the department not executing the contract without further delay. The department are to-day having the service performed at a daily rate of $3, which would be in the neighbourhood of $1,000 a year; and I do not See how they can defend that rate of payment when they refuse to make a four-year contract for the carrying of this mail at a rate that would be a little less than $2 a day. I fear that the venom of party politics has not been completely
eradicated from the Post Office Department, notwithstanding that it is in charge of a very estimable and amiable Postmaster General. I received assurance from him a couple of weeks ago when I discussed postal matters in this House that he would not allow political considerations to interfere with the efficient performance of public duty by officials of his department. With regard to the tenders received for this contract, I believe that of the six tenderers five happened to be Liberals and one a Conservative. The lowest tenderer is a Liberal. His tender was considered excessive, and he wrote to tlie department making a very substantial reduction in the lowest tender, stating that if the other persons tendering reduced the amount of their tenders he wuuld make a further reduction to keep his tender^ still the lowest. This matter has been pending for many months and the tenderers are awaiting a decision by the department. Meantime some of them have prepared themselves for carrying out the contract by purchasing horses and carriages, thinking that in due course this contract would be awarded. The lowest tenderer particularly had reason to believe that his tender would be accepted. We hear from time to time justification by the Government of their conduct in increasing the salaries of some officials, that it is due to the high cost of living. This would apply with equal force to this mail contract, as the cost of living, the cost of horses, vehicles, feed and wages has increased. We know that in Nova Scotia, as in other provinces, a horse that' could be purchased four or five years ago for $100 cannot be had to-day for less than $150. We know that the cost of feed has gone up enormously. Hay that could be purchased a few years ago for $12 a ton now costs	$20 a ton,
and the same with regard to oats, and as regards the wages of the men required to assist in performing this work, men who could be got a few years ago for ten dollars a month and board have now to be paid $15 to $25 a month and board. All these things should be taken into account when the- department is about to execute new contracts for the conveying of the mail. I submit that the fact that persons do not tender for the^carrying of mails to the same extent to-day as they did some few years ago is no justification for this department's refusing to accept the lowest tender. I am bound to say that in years gone by there- was no class of public servant so

poorly paid as the mail courier. There was always competition among neighbours living in the country communities, which resulted in the mails being carried at a very low price indeed. But circumstances have changed in the last fifteen years in the province of Nova Scotia, and men who were then willing to perform this service for the Government at a very low price have found more profitable employment; and the competition is therefore not so keen as in the past. But I know of no case where the lowest tender for the carrying of mails ought not to be accepted. When tenders are called for in the ordinary course and several tenders are received by the department, the lowest tenderer ought to indicate the lowest figure for which the department should expect this service to be performed. Where there is proof of fraud or collusion between tenderers that is a different matter, and the department would be justified m looking into it; but where there is no evidence of fraud or collusion, and where a fair degree of competition exists between the tenderers, there is no justification whatever for the department insisting upon mail couriers performing this service at a starvation price, especially when it is recognized that all other servants connected with the Government are entitled to extra remuneration on account of the high cost of living. And in the case of the mail carriers there is not only the high cost of living to be taken into account, but the high cost of all the material and plant * which is necessary for the contractor to have in carrying on the service.


John Hampden Burnham: Is it the intention of the department to increase the remuneration of the mail carriers in proportion to the increased work, and on account of the increased risk there is in carrying parcel post matter in bad weather. If not, I know for a positive fact that in our part of Ontario there will be a complete smash-up of the service, and it will be no use for the Department to appeal to some of the members to try and have tne tenders lowered. If the pay is not increased .t will be simply impossible to get them to tender.
Mr. CASGRaIN :	I am glaa to have
this expression of opinion from both sides of the committee. I can assure the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) that I do not know the political colour of the gentlemen who have tendered for the mail service to which he has alluded. I was told by the experts in my department that

the demands were excessive. These men have been in the service for a very long while and have great experience, and of course I am bound to take my information, from them, and draw my conclusions to a great extent from what they tell me; for I have no personal knowledge of the service myself. But I do not mean to put any extra responsibility on their shoulders: I have to shoulder this responsibility myself. I think there is a great deal of force in what the hon. gentleman has said, and before I became a member of this House I felt somewhat that way myself on a great many occasions. But on the other hand, and especially in these times, I have to keep down the expenditure of the department, which is increasing all the time. But, consistent with my duty and consistent, with the laudable ambition of keeping down the expenditures as much as possible, I am disposed to increase the allowance to mail couriers.
In reply to the hon. member for Peterborough I think I gave the information he asked for before he came in. I said t"hat the railway companies, on account of the vast increase in the amount of postal matter which they are handling just now, have applied for a larger allowance; and we are actually in negotiation with them, but no conclusion has yet been reached. If we feel that the railway companies are, on account of the increased postal matter, justified in asking for an extra allowance, and also the mail couriers, the matter will be taken into very serious consideration by the department. If it is made plain to the department that the claims put forward by these men are claims that will bear tne light of day, we shall in every meritorious case increase the allowance.


John Hampden Burnham: I can see a frightful future if the merit of each case has to be established, because we may rest assured that all the couriers will think they have a meritorious case. Unless some business principle is adopted, the future looks to me extremely gloomy.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Up to the present we have not had a great many complaints on that score, and therefore I do not look to the future with such terror as my hon. friend does. We have had some claims, but not many, on account of the increased postal matter which the couriers have to handle.	-


John Hampden Burnham: The couriers in my district have nearly all told me what they expect, and I have assured them that tbn

department will probably treat their oases reasonably; and they are waiting for that treatment.


George William Kyte: The Postmaster General told us that he was guided entirely by the officials of his department as to the reasonableness of the cost of a particular service. That is quite proper. But I should like to know whether his officials are taking into account the extra remuneration that contractors ought to be entitled to, on account of the extra cost of living, and the increased cost of the plant and material required in performing the service; also the increased remuneration they are entitled to in respect to the parcels post service which they are performing.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Certainly.


George William Kyte: With respect to the particular case I am discussing, that is, the contract for carrying the mails between Grandigue Ferry, Arichat and West Arichat, the minister in answer to a question a few days ago stated that he would execute the contract as soon as a reasonable offer had been received. If I am correctly informed as to the figure submitted to the department by the lowest tenderer, I submit that there is no reasonable excuse for refraining from executing that contract. The circumstance that the service was performed at a lower figure some years ago ought not, in view of the circumstances to which I have called the attention of the committee, to have any weight with the department at the present time. I think there ought to. be no further delay on the part of the department in executing that contract. I am informed that the lowest tender in this particular case was for $650. The contract for years has been let at $495, so the difference in the amount asked for at the present time and the amount that has been paid for the last 15 years, is only $155. In view of the circumstances I have disclosed to the committee, I say there is no justification for the department refusing to enter into this contract. This is the first time that the contract is sought for under the conditions imposed by the parcel post sytem, and it may be taken for granted that those tendering for this service took into account the extra work on account of the parcel post system; so when this contract is let the book will be closed so far as any extra remuneration will be asked for by this contractor during the term of his contract.


Charles Marcil: Are all the railways being paid for carrying the mails, or only some of them ? I am told that a railway in my constituency carries the mails for the first 80 miles undeT the old Railway Subsidy Act and is paid for that distance, but that for the remaining distance of 120 miles, from Matapedia to Gasp6, they are paid nothing. Is that the case ?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The reason for that is that the railway from Paspebiac got a special subsidy.


Charles Marcil: This railway is not paid at all.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The department pays 3 per cent of the subsidy to the Finance Department.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister consider it fair treatment of a railway which has been eking out an existence to compel this company to carry mails without paying them for it?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am told that this is the law, and that it has been for some time.


George William Kyte: Would the minister tell the committee with what railway companies he has readjusted the rate for carrying the mails?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: All the railway companies in Canada, except a few which carry the mails for the subsidy I have just spoken of. I have not a list here, but if the hon. gentleman wants it I can give it to him.


George William Kyte: The readjustment has been made with the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Grand Trunk and the Canadian Northern, and those that have not received this more generous treatment are the smaller companies?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It is impossible for me to give the information this evening, but if the hon. gentleman wishes it I can give it to him at a later stage. It is with the larger companies that we have made this arrangement.


George William Kyte: I would be very glad indeed if the minister could bring that information before the committee when we again take up the Estimates of his department.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister not think, having some knowledge of the conditions in the Gaspe peninsula, that this railway company should be paid for the service they perform? The manager of the railway was here the other day, and he

spoke to me about the matter. Has there been any change in the policy of the department in regard to mail contracts? What happens when a mail contract is about to expire?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Tenders are called for except in some cases where the contract is renewed because the price is considered satisfactory to the department.


Charles Marcil: Where there is any change in the price are tenders called for?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Charles Marcil: I do not want to resurrect old issues, but the predecessor of the hon. gentleman cancelled a number of mail contracts in my county without giving the old contractors a chance to tender. I do not want the minister to follow that practice. We were fresh from the fray then, and I suppose that was the reason.


James McCrie Douglas: I wish to say a word or two to the minister in connection with the present postal arrangements in the city of Strathcona. Strathcona has been amalgamated with Edmonton, and forms a part of the city. We have a post office in the old city of Strathcona, and, as I understand, the department still recognizes the old city for postal purposes. The new stamp tax is going to inflict a hardship on the people of Edmonton in sending mail from one portion of the city to the other. The department, I understand,, was to change the system or name of the post office as soon as the city of Edmonton agreed upon a proper street numbering system. That system has been in existence now for something like one year, and yet I understand the department has made no move to change the name of the post office and put the office on a city basis, the same as the main office in the old city of Edmonton. I would like to know if the minister has done anything further along this line.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We have not received notice that this change has been made, but as soon as we receive notice we will make the change. We will take notice now from the hon. gentleman.


James McCrie Douglas: I give you notice now, because this is a grievance we have been suffering under for a long time. At present a letter from one portion of Edmonton to another is only allowed to go through on a one-cent stamp basis by the courtesy of the postmaster on one side of the river or the other. But in many instances an inexperienced clerk will return a letter for lack of

postage, and great inconvenience is thereby caused to those who are sending letters. I wish to say a word in regard to the question of mail contracts. On the 18th of this month I put the following question on the Order Paper in regard to tenders for carrying the mails between the post offices at Calmar and Telfordville:
1.	How many tenders were received in connection with the contract for carrying mails between Calmar and Telfordville?
2.	What are the names of the tenderers, and the amount of each tender?
3.	Who received the contract?
4.	Who is carrying out this contract, and to whom is payment being made?
To which the following answer was given:
1.	Three.
2.	J. H. Vanalstyne, $400; F. M. Grant, $468 ; I. J. McKinney, $700.
3.	I. J. McKinney offered to reduce his tender to $398, and the contract was awarded to him. The post office inspector reported that McKinney refused to sign a contract and submitted the name of W. J. Dent as a suitable person willing to accept $398. Mr. Dent's offer was accepted.
4.	W. J. Dent.
As a matter of fact these tenders were asked for and the local patronage committee, I regret to say, allowed politics to enter into this case. The tenderer who had put in the highest tender, Mr. McKinney, was recommended by the local patronage committee as being a proper person to receive this contract. Fortunately for the service, Mr. McKinney was a man of high character, and he refused to be a party to any such business as is shown in this answer. Mr. McKinney's tender was $700, and yet according to this return he agreed to bring down his price to $398, two dollars less than the price of the lowest tenderer, who unfortunately had been a liberal and who had been carrying the mail prior to this. When it is suggested that Mr. McKinney had agreed to reduce his tender from	$700 to $398 and had
then refused to sign .the contract it is evident on the face of it that he never made any such agreement. The agreement was made for him by the local patronage committee, who desired Mr. McKinney to do the work. The lowest tenderer was Mr. Vanalstyne, who apparently was completely ignored in the matter. The strange part of this is that Mr. Dent, who had not tendered at all, was awarded the contract at the price of $398. My information is that Mr. Dent is not carrying this mail at all, but that the lowest tenderer, Mr. Vanalstyne, is carrying the mail under a subcontract or verbal arrangement with the

contractor. I submit that this is a most unbusinesslike method of carrying on the business of the department. I do not think the Postmaster General knows anything about it, but these answers, on their face, would indicate that the return is absolutely incorrect. I wish the Postmaster General would see that everything is quite right in connection with this contract.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will look into that
case.


Charles Marcil: 1 wish to call the attention of the Postmaster General to the condition of the post office service in a part of Montreal which has come under my notice. Westmount and Notre Dame de Grace are two parts of Montreal which have progressed most rapidly during recent years. On Victoria avenue, Westmount, close to the limits of Notre Dame de Grace, the post office there is kept by a gentleman named Fry, with his wife, and his brother. No allowance is given for that post office, and it is probably the post office in which most business is done in Westmount. The post office returns show the gross receipts from it to be $13,000 with 7,604 money orders issued to the value of $65,000. With the exception of St. Catherine Street West post office and St. Henri it is I think the largest sub-post office in Montreal. The building is a small shanty of about 25 feet wide and 40 feet deep, and in addition to it being a post office it is a book-store and news-room. At certain hours of the day, men, women, and children who go there have actually to stand out on the sidewalk to wait their turn before they get into the building. That post office building is nothing less than a disgrace.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Is that a post office
where mail is received only, or is the mail distributed from it?


Charles Marcil: I think it is only a mailreceiving station. The distributing post office for Westmount is at the corner of Greene avenue and St. Catherine street and this office is on Victoria avenue, which is a transfer point for the urban and the city f street cars. The gentleman in charge of this post office is a very competent man and one who has given general satisfaction to the public. I asked him why he did not have better premises and he replied that he had asked the department lately for an allowance of some kind and he had been waiting to rent a very nice building on the 87
corner of Victoria avenue and Sherbrooke street, but the department would give him no allowance. If in a case like this the department had granted an allowance to this postmaster to rent a new building which at the time was unoccupied, a great service would have been rendered to the locality, and it would not have been necessary to go to the expense of putting up a large and costly public building in that immediate vicinity. The nearest post office to that on Victoria avenue is the new Yvestmount post office at the corner of Greene avenue and Western avenue, which has not yet been occupied. The old post office, at the corner of Greene avenue and St. Catherine street is a small brick building. I have no doubt that the minister wants to put his postal service on a proper footing and I think he should look into these matters.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The new post office in Westmount will be occupied in a few days.


Charles Marcil: The new post office will serve the people going down Greene avenue, but it will be of no use to people using Victoria avenue which is quite a distance away. There is another matter to which I would draw the attention of the Postmaster General, and it is that Sherbrooke street, from Victoria avenue, Westmount, through Notre Dame de Grace to Montreal West, is the only avenue towards the West from Sherbrooke street to Montreal West, and is the most frequented boulevard in the western part of the cilty, and there are no post office facilities from Victoria avenue to Montreal West, a distance of three miles. There is an old gentleman named Baker, whom the minister may know, a retired school-master and military man, and he tells me that within the last year he has worn out a pair of shoes walking down to Montreal post office.


George Perry Graham: What kind of shoes had he on?
Mr. CARV1LL: Was he a military officer?


Charles Marcil: He tells me he wore out his shoes walking down to the Montreal post office trying to impress on the postmaster and his assistant the importance of having a sub-office in this locality. A number of new stores have been erected all along that street, and I believe that whether the Postmaster General has an embarras des riches or not, he should give a post., office to that locality between Westmount and Montreal West. The post office in Notre



Dame de Grace at present is an old building near the church of Notre Dame de Grace, which was established in the old days when Notre Dame de Grace was a rural municipality, when to-day it is part of the city of Montreal, and the main traffic through it is now on Sherbrooke street where there are no post office facilities. A sub-post office should be erected halfway between Victoria avenue and Montreal West. I hope the Postmaster General will look into these two glaring cases which I have brought to his attention.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The postmaster at Victoria avenue, referred to by my hon. friend, gets an allowance of $200 a year for rental and besides he gets a commission on all stamps, postal notes, and money orders that he sells, so that, it seems to me, he should have suitable premises for the business done there. I understand that this is a suboffice where stamps, postal notes and money orders are sold, and that it is a receiving office only for mail. This gentleman has an allowance and perhaps he ought to accommodate the public better than he does. As to the other stretch of street, where my hon. friend says there are no post office facilities, surely there must be postal boxes?


Charles Marcil: Yes


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: My hon. friend says that a great many stores have been erected there recently, and it would seem strange if some of the owners have not applied to the department for permission to sfell stamps. I shall very carefully read over the remarks that are made in the House on this matter, and we shall try to give as much satisfaction as we can.


Charles Marcil: The public do not know
whether the postmaster at Victoria avenue receives an allowance or not, but they do know that the accommodation is not sufficient. The minister knows the character of the people who reside in Westmount and that they are among the very best class of people in the city of Montreal.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I know.


Charles Marcil: And when people come to that tumble-down old shanty and have to wait together in crowds to get in as best they can for parcel post and everything else, they rightly think it is not a credit to the Post Office Department. Neither is it a credit to the post office administration to have a stretch of three miles on Sherbrooke

street, from Victoria avenue to Montreal West, without a single sub-post office.


James Joseph Hughes: I wish to bring to the attention of the minister, who, I think, is attempting to give a proper service in the Post Office Department, a condition that exists in my province that requires to be looked into. The service is becoming demoralized.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


James Joseph Hughes: I will point out to the minister and to those hon. gentlemen who say "Oh, oh," why I feel justified in my remarks. Last year, during the session of the House, I found that most of the letters I wrote never reached their destination. Several letters written to me did not arrive. When I returned home I found that a number of people had a similar complaint, and 'a little later on a young man in the post office service, a railway mail clerk, fell under suspicion. The post office inspector put letters into the post office with marked money in them. Those letters disappeared. The young man was arrested, and the money was found on him. He was taken before a magistrate, and for some reason or other the inspector could not find time for several days to appear at the trial. Finally, when the inspector came to the trial, he could not remember the marks on the money; in fact, he could not remember anything, and the case was dismissed, because there was no evidence. Leniency may be a good thing to exercise in some instances; but that is carrying it to an extreme, and it will have a very bad effect on the whole service, because the circumstances are well known. That is the worst case that I have to relate. The whole service, from the top to the bottom, is going wrong. No care is being exercised. The rural mail system prevails very largely in my province. For some reason or another the mail couriers are illiterate men or careless, and the carelessness is extending to every one, so that, when a letter is mailed now, there is no certainty at all that it will reach its destination. The service in all parts of the province is very poor; there is a great deal of insubordination and inefficiency; there is demoralization and worse. I believe the minister is honestly trying to give to the people of Canada a good service, an improvement on that of his predecessor. I ask the minister to look into these matters.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am very sorry to hear that the service in Prince Edward Island is

as bad as my hon. friend says it is. Did my hon. friend ever report this state of affairs to the department?


James Joseph Hughes: I reported it first to the postmaster in my town, because I thought he was the guilty party. I found out subsequently that he was not. I feel satisfied that, if the Postmaster General makes an inquiry, he will make an improvement in the service. It is just as well to be plain. There is a great deal of drinking going on in the department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That does not apply to the department here.


James Joseph Hughes: I hope not.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I promise my hon.
friend to send a teetotaller to that province to make an investigation.


James Joseph Hughes: I am informed that a number of post offices have been closed in the neighbourhood of Red Point, and that the post office at Red Point still remains open. If the other offices have been closed, why is the posit office at Red Point left open?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Has the rural mail service been established in Prince Edward Island?


James Joseph Hughes: The rural mail service
has been established in nearly all parts of the province.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is the reason, I
suppose, why the post offices have been closed.


James Joseph Hughes: What is the salary of the postmaster at Red Point, King's county?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We will get that information.


Mr HUGHES:: In the spring of 1914,
tenders were called for carrying the mail between Cardigan bridge, Cardigan, and An-nandale. Who tendered for that
9 p.m. service and to whom was the contract awarded?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Did the hon. member
ask a question about that?


James Joseph Hughes: No.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am not able to furnish the information this evening, but I will give it to the hon. member.


Charles Marcil: On the subject of the rural mail system, will the minister tell the committee how the system is working in the lower parts of Quebec?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: 
Charles Marcil: There were some parts of Quebec where the minister had difficulty in introducing the system, were there not? I understand that in my own constituency tenders were called for, but the department refused to let the contracts because the tenders were too high.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I believe so.


Charles Marcil: Has anything been done
since then?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We hope that something will be done in a short time.


Charles Marcil: Are there any rural mail routes in Bonaventure?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Charles Marcil: Or in Gaspe?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Not yet.


Charles Marcil: In Rimouski?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have not before me
the figures as to the different constituencies.


Charles Marcil: Is the rural mail delivery system paying its way?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am told that it does not pay, and it never will.


Charles Marcil: What is the average loss in a year?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have not the figures before me, but I shall be able to give them.


Charles Marcil: I understand the system
is not paying in the United States.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


William Chisholm: What is
the saving from the closing of post offices?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will look that up.


Mr. LANCTOT (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to call the attention of the Postmaster General to the rural mail delivery in the county of Lapraire-Napierville. At Saint Constant, in my home parish, complaints are often made to me concerning the Saturday delivery. I will give the facts: When the general scheme was planned, a gentleman was sent from Montreal for the purpose of laying out the route; but instead of taking into account the boundaries of each parish, he took in for example part of I,a Fortune de Saint Philippe, thence through the parish of Saint Constant and up again into the " Petite Cote " of Saint Constant and stopped at a point in the parish of Saint Michel. So that the inhabitants of the Petite C6te of Saint Constant who, before the starting of the new system, used to get their mail at the village of Saint Constant now get it from La Fortune de Saint Philippe, which is at a distance of six miles from the village of Saint Constant.
Everything runs smoothly until Saturday. Then there is no delivery until the next Monday with the result that these people are deprived of the Sunday mail; and it is on Sunday that they most require it. If the boundaries of the parishes had been taken into account in the laying out of these routes, the mail would still be delivered at the village of Saint Constant and the people

could get their mail as usual on Sunday after mass. The minister is quite aware that the farmers who work every day from five o'clock in the morning to eight o'clock in the evening will not find time to read the newspapers on Monday morning.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Will the hon. member kindly tell me why the mail is not delivered on Saturday evening?


Roch Lanctôt: I presume that in many cases the mail comes in too late from Montreal; but where I reside, the mail for La Fortune de Saint Philippe, gets in at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. The case of La Fortune de Saint Philippe is repeated all over the county. I should suggest to the minister to have the mail delivered on Saturday evening or else to return to parish boundaries in establishing rural routes.


William Chisholm: I am afraid that there is a little too much truth in what the bon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. J. J. Hughes), alleges with respect to the Post Office Department. There is a general belief, whether rightly or wrongly, that the postmasters in the country sections are not as careful as they should be and that the secrecy that should be maintained is not observed in these offices. In fact, there is a suspicion that it is not safe to send mail matter through some of these offices. 1 grant that a good deal of that may be due to suspicion. The wholesale dismissals that took place under the late Postmaster General as compared with the almost inappreciable number that took place under the Liberal Administration-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Chisholm: -to which I will refer later on, may be responsible for these suspicions. Hon. gentlemen opposite laugh, but it is a fact that, under the late Administration, in the rural districts there were very few dismissals, and these only for cause. The reason for the difference may be that whereas formerly, postmasters were paid only $12.50 a year, and it was hard to get anybody to take the office, while there was no inducement for anybody to seek it, now the salary is $50. You can understand how the party friends will seek the job. The result is that wholesale dismissals of postmasters in country places have taken place under this Government That is a fact that cannot be disputed. I am not saying that the Liberal party are any better than the Gonservative party, I am not saying that they are not just as

human as the Conservative party. I am pointing out the fact and not discussing what may be the answer. Perhaps because of the fact that these wholesale dismissals have taken place under the present Administration, there is a suspicion, that may in many cases be ill-founded, on the part of a certain section of the country, that justice will not be done through these offices; but, nevertheless, there is this fact that some of these postmasters who have been appointed as a reward for political services, think they can do just about as they like.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: They cannot.


William Chisholm: And it is a notorious fact that under the late Postmaster General, the Iago who presided over the department since 1911, a condition of demoralization has arisen, the service to-day is looked upon with disrespect, it has been brought into disrepute by the ihanner in which the late Postmaster General administered his department. The spirit of the law, so far as the postal regulations are concerned, was practically disregarded by him, the system of awarding contracts after calling for tenders became a veritable farce. The hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) pointed to a case in his county under the present Postmaster General. I do not wish to say anything in the way of flattery of the present Postmaster General, but the country at large regard his appointment to the high office which he fills as a very much needed and decided improvement, and they feel that under him the postal service will be improved, that there will be a decided uplift in the administration of the department. As far as the service is concerned, I am sure that the country will read to-morrow with interest and with a great deal of satisfaction the assurance which the present Postmaster General gave that he would follow a straighter course and would aim at higher ideals than his predecessor.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I did not say that, I could not say that.


William Chisholm: You could not say that ? I am not saying that you did make a statement of that kind in so many words, it would not be. courteous to your predecessor to do so; but we heard from the hon. gentleman an assurance of the course which he intends to pursue, and if he will pursue that course it will be a deviation from the course pursued by his predecessor. I had occasion to point out last year several cases I knew of in my own constituency where the system of tenders was absolutely disregarded, where the late Postmaster General undertook to award contracts to men who were not the lowest tenderers, and did so in violation of the spirit, if not of the letter of the law; cases where, after having awarded contracts, he undertook to wantonly break those contracts without any regard to the fact that a contract is sacred, and that a contract to which the King's name is put should be regarded with a great deal more seriousness than an ordinary contract.


George Henry Bradbury: Could the hon. member name any of the contracts given out in that way ?


William Chisholm: I named them last
session, I quoted the evidence, I cited the pages of Hansard and the documents brought down from the department, and proved the cases so conclusively that the minister did not attempt to reply, for there was no reply possible to the cases to which I referred. I have in mind one or two of those cases. Let me take the case of the service between Antigonish and Livingstone's Cove. Tenders were called for that service; the lowest tenderer was Mr. John R. McAdam, who happened to be a Liberal. There were five or six tenders, but instead of awarding the contract to the lowest tenderer, McAdam, the department began to look around for excuses to give the contract to one McPherson, who was recommended by the man who had charge of the patronage of the county. McPherson was recommended as a reliable man and iu was alleged that McAdam did not have property in his name. So they searched the records and found there was nothing standing in his name. He was a young man living with his father on a property worth from $2,500 to $3,500. He was the man to whom the property was to go on the old man's death. I think, as a matter of fact, he had a deed although it was not on record. Coming back to his tender, he had two sureties proposed as bondsmen for the due performance of his contract. Some doubt was thrown on one of his sureties, but Mr. McAdam wrote and offered to provide * a guarantee bond from one of the guarantee companies and he also offered two private individuals, each of whom was worth anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000. So there was no possible escape so far as the question of security for the performance of a contract was concerned and, as he said, he did not know that it was

necessary for him to be a millionaire in order to run a mail service. They juggled that contract back and forth. Then the man McPherson, recommended by the man in charge of the patronage and alleged to be a highly responsible person, turned out to be an imaginary man and he disappeared. It developed that his tender had been put in by another person for this man McPherson, who did not want the contract; and the late Postmaster General stated in a letter to the man in charge of the patronage that it put him in an awfully humiliating position. That was the effect of the letter which I read last session. The tenders, as I said, were juggled with and they had to call for tenders again, McPherson having left the country. While they were juggling with the tenders ten months had elapsed. During that time they had to make a special arrangement at $125 a month for which they paid out $1,250. Had they accepted McAdam's figure, the lowest tender, and there was no possible excuse for refusing it, it would have cost only $786, so there was a loss of $464 in ten months, a net loss of 60 per cent. Perhaps the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) thinks that that is good business or is justifiable.
Take another case in my own constituency, and when I can find such glaring cases in my little county with a population of 12,000 what must it be all over Canada? Take the case of the contract between Guysborough and Heatherton. The lowest tenderer there was Mr. Anselm Rogers.


George Henry Bradbury: Mr. Chairman-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order.


William Chisholm: He had in competition with him a good Conservative, so the forces were brought to bear to see that Rogers did not get the contract. Objection was raised to his sureties and he wrote to the department-the file was brought down last year- and offered two sureties, one the local member, Mr. Trotter, a man supposed to be wonth from $40,000 to $50,o00, and Ithe other Mr. James Tory of Montreal, the local member of Provincial Parliament for Guysborough, estimated to be worth between $75,000 and $100,000. Yet in some way or other they managed to find that Mr. Rogers could not put up satisfactory security and they got him out and gave the contract to Mr. O'Connor. There was a loss to the country in the meantime, owing to their temporary arrangement with Mr. O'Connor, the previous contractor, who was paid tempor-

arily, of $650 in seven months. That was the loss as compared with what they would have had to pay if the contract had been awarded in a proper and businesslike way to the lowest tenderer.
That kind of thing has been going on in other sections of the county, and it has come to this now: No Liberal will put in a tender unless he does it for the purpose of bothering his Tory neighbour and making him submit a lower figure than he otherwise would; but they do not do that. The result is that the Liberals never put in a tender at all now, and there is no competition from that source. The Postmaster General stated a while ago that it was necessary to exercise economy in these strenuous times. That was a very good proposition for him to announce in this House, and one that the ministers on both sides of him might well follow. It is true that it is well to economize, but the service need not be starved, and. the couriers need not be obliged to work for the miserable pittance they get to-day and in the unfair manner in which they are working. If the Postmaster General will cut out the dishonest work that went on under his predecessor and carry out the principles he has enunciated today, and I believe he will, and award the contracts to the lowest tenderers, unless there is some legitimate reason for not doing so-and there may be a few cases of that kind-he will save hundreds of thousands of dollars all over the country, and be able to give the couriers something like reasonable pay for the service they are supposed to perform. There is a suspicion in the country, perhaps not very well founded in all cases, that the postmasters have not that conception of their duty which they should have, and it would be a good thing if the Postmaster General, now that he is new in the office, would inaugurate some system of discipline whereby their attention would be called to the fact that they are the servants of the public; and I am sure they would appreciate that themselves.
Some hon. gentlemen have referred to dismissals under the late Administration. I want to say that during the nine years I have sat in this House I have not recommended a single man for dismissal on account of political partisanship. Not a man in my district has been dismissed on account of his politics, or dismissed at all so far as I know, during the nine years I

have sat in Parliament; and my predecessor did not dismiss a single man in the county of Antigonish during the time he sat in this House from 1896 onwards. I have made some recommendations, and six new postmasters have been appointed. All of these were Tories, hut it was not because they were Tories that I recommended them, but because they happened to be situated in the most convenient part of the section. The late Postmaster General was not governed by any consideration of that kind, for in two places particularly, which I pointed out last year, he placed the post office at the extreme end of the district; and when the matter was brought to his attention he promised to look into it, but I do not think lie ever did. I refer to the post office at Doctor's Brook and the post office at Middleton, both in Antigonish county. Both post offices are at the extreme end of the district where they are not a convenience to the people at all. As I was saying, I have recommended six new postmasters during the time I have been in this House, and they were all Conservatives. I made no distinction between Liberals and Conservatives. Of course, other things being equal, I will be frank and say that I would recommend a Liberal. But the first consideration was the convenience and accommodation of the public, and that being so, I did not hesitate to recommend Conservatives when these vacancies occurred. There are 95 postmasters in the county of Antigonish and 19 of these have been dismissed under the present Administration, and more would have been dismissed but for the fact that the rest of them are nearly all Conservatives. In our time we made no distinction and, as far as my county is concerned, the majority of our postmasters were Conservatives; but I am bound to say there was not a single man against whom there was the slightest suspicion of improper conduct. I am bound to say that the postmasters in Antigonish county with scarcely an exception, Liberal and Conservative alike, are all straight and honest and can be depended on; they will do nothing crooked, which cannot be said of the postmasters in some other parts of the country. That is the record. I did not intend to say as much as I have, and I should now like to inquire of the minister why the contract for the service system between Antigonish and Sherbrooke was not awarded to the lowest tenderer? The tenders were received at the office of the Postmaster General on the 11th of December last. I think. The details
are given on page 51 of Hansard. Nine tenders were received, but seven of these were withdrawn, and I want to know why the Postmaster General did not award the contract to the lowest- of the two that were left. In this connection I may say that it sometimes occurs that persons put in tenders with the expectation of being bought up afterwards, and I have the suspicion that some of those seven put in tenders with that expectation, and had no intention of running the service when they put in their tenders. I can understand a case of that kind, and particularly with.this service. A few years ago there was a man on that route who ran a store halfway between Antigonish and Sherbrooke and did a large business, and he could afford to run the mail very much cheaper than anybody else. In fact, it was necessary for him to have a coach on that route in connection with his own business. It was currently reported at that time that certain persons tendered on that service who tried to hold up this man, also a tenderer, for a consideration to induce them to withdraw their tenders. As I was saying, I should not be surprised if some of these seven put in their tenders with the expectation of being bought off, and when they found there was nobody to do business with them withdrew their tenders. Perhaps they had put up no surety at all. But why was the contract not awarded to the lowest tenderer, and why did the department last December or January decide to call for new tenders?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: When these tenderers withdrew their offers we had a suspicion that there was collusion between them.


William Chisholm: Between whom?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Between the different tenderers, and that is why we called for new tenders. We received new tenders, which are much more favourable to the Government, and we have accepted one.


William Chisholm: Has the contract been awarded?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: If it has not been already let, it is being completed.


William Chisholm: Did the minister receive any reports that there was collusion?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not think so, but it looked very suspicious, and that was our honest belief.


William Chisholm: And when you arrived at that conclusion you decided to call for

new tenders? That was your sole reason for calling for new tenders?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Absolutely.


James Alexander Robb: The hon. member for
Laprairie-Napierville (Mr. Lanctot) has re-[DOT]presented to the minister that, in the laying out of a certain rural mail route, an inspector from Montreal laid out the route in a way that did not give the best service to the parish. We have a similar case in the neighbouring county of Huntingdon in connection with the rural mail route between Hallerton, Barrington and Hemming-ford. An inspector from Montreal looked over the rural mail route and, I understand against the advice of the people to be served by that route put in the mail service to Hallerton from Barrington instead of from Hemmingford. I have a complaint from a merchant of Hallerton who is, I suppose, the largest user of the mail service, that owing to this route coming in from Barrington the service is delayed by from twenty-four to thirty-six hours. It has been represented to me that a much better and more satisfactory service could be had coming in from Hemmingford. Will the minister take this up with his department and have it looked into. In this connection I would like to know what the policy of the department is in regard to rural mail delivery routes where a majority of the patrons along the route refused to sign for the rural mail delivery? Does the department insist upon putting in a rural mail delivery against the wishes of the people?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: To the first question
I would answer that the matter is actually being studied by the department and we will certainly take into consideration what my hon. friend (Mr. Robb) has said this evening. As to the second question, we do not grant a rural mail delivery on any route except where fifty per cent of the patrons have signed.


William Findlay Maclean: Would the minister make a short statement as to the progress of the parcel post system, and say whether he has in view an improvement of the system so as not only to widen its use but to cheapen its cost?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We are now studying this important question of parcel post in Canada. We have some special officers who are making a study of it. This is a question which I have not been able to master yet. It is a complicated question, it is a difficult

question, it is a question in connection with which one has to see what has happened in other countries so as to be able to lay down rules which will apply to this country. We are extending the system as much as we can. The parcel post service has been greatly extended in the city of Toronto, where, I believe, there are more parcels sent by post than in any other part of The country. In the province of Quebec we are also trying to extend it as much as possible. We are sending men around to introduce the system and show the people and merchants especially that there are considerable advantages to be derived from the use of this system.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If the minister will cut the price in half and put the cost below that of the express companies he will not have any difficulty in getting people to use it. As long as the public know that they can send an article just as cheaply by express as by parcel post and have the express company call around for it and deliver it at the other end, you can rest assured that the parcel post will not do a very flourishing business.


Mr. GASGRAIN:: I am informed that
our charges are in many cases below those of the express companies.


William Findlay Maclean: There has been a great development of the parcel post system in the United States and all other countries where it has been adopted, and a courageous policy, looking to the development of the parcel post system, will make the Post Office Department the greatest public service department we have in this country. The more liberal the policy is in that direction the better the service will be and the more prosperous and useful the department will become.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The deficit in the
United States due to the parcel post system is $17,000,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: And the saving to the people is enormous.


William Cameron Edwards: I want to say a word in regard to the parcel post. There is a feature of it, I know, that has received the attention of the hon. gentleman's predecessor, but I do not know how far he had succeeded in working out the difficulty. It is a matter of very great importance in the rural sections. We have hundreds of mail stage routes in various parts of the country. A considerable part of the revenue of the people who operate these routes was derived from the carrying ol parcels. The inauguration of the parcel post system has

very seriously affected the income of the men engaged in this occupation. There is no question that on many mail routes in the province of Ontario, and I dare say in the other provinces, the contract for carrying the mail was awarded at a low rate because of the passenger and small freight business that the owners of these stages did. I understand that the railway companies made certain representations to the Government and that some consideration has been given to them on account of the introduction of the parcel post system. That seems to be right and reasonable, but it also seems to me that persons who are engaged in the carrying of the mails on the various stage lines throughout the country have just as good a ground for demanding consideration because of the undoubted doss which they have been subjected to on account of the inauguration of the parcel post. I spoke about this to the Hon. Mr. Pelletier when he was Postmaster General, and he said that he was giving it very serious consideration. I do not know how far he got in his consideration of the subject or whether he reached any conclusion or not. It would not be reasonable to expect that the present hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Casgrain) in the short time that he has been in office has been able to work this out, but I do ask him to give it his very earnest consideration. I have many letters from different couriers who complain that their revenue has been cut down because of the parcel post, and I have told them that I had no doubt that in time the Government would give the matter its consideration and that they would get redress.
Mr. \VRIGHT:	I would like to emphasize the point raised by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), and put in a plea for those carrying the mail between the smaller offices throughout t'he country. I want to refer particularly to the advantage taken of the system by the mail-order houses who gat inside the twenty-mile limit rate. I do not know whether this point has been raised in the House, but I would state that they are now sending a very large amount of advertising literature, catalogues, etc., by freight up to certain local centres throughout the country. These catalogues, etc., are landed at certain points by the carload, and ithe local courier has to team them to the post office and team them back again, and it is a very great hardship indeed. I have 'had appeals made to me on
several occasions that these couriers should receive greater remuneration than they receive at the present time. I do not understand that this mail route business was inaugurated to enable the mail-order houses to get around the regulations by simply adopting the expedient I have mentioned. There should be some way of arranging the matter which would compel them to send out their catalogues in such a way as not to encumber the mail service and augment the work of the rural couriers for which they receive no consideration. If this condition is to prevail it will be necessary to increase the salaries of the men w'ho are carrying mails back and forward in these places.
Mr. J. ,T. HUGHES: With reference to the Prince Edward Island matter which I was discussing, I think the Postmaster General was under a misapprehension. He asked me if I had notified the post office inspector, and I replied that I had notified t'he postmaster in my own town. I understood the post office inspector was aware of what was going on and that he knew that a great number of letters were being lost.
I want the Postmaster General to make inquiry. I would like to know, after this man had been discovered what pressure was brought to bear upon the post office inspector to induce or compel him to desist- from prosecuting.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We will inquire into this case.


James Joseph Hughes: There was considerable pressure, and pressure of a most unusual kind.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: When a man is arrested and taken before the court, he is out of out hands; but there would be no excuse for the post office inspector not appearing if regularly summoned before the court. I cannot understand why he was not there; I will inquire.


James Joseph Hughes: He finally was there, but he had forgotten all about the transaction.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: We have not much control over the memory of these people.


Mr. D. A. LAFORTUNE (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, in 1907 and 1908, Justice Dugas, then member for Montcalm, had succeeded in obtaining the promise of a post office for St. Jacques de l'Achigan in the county of Montcalm. When I was elected in his place, Mr. Dugas said to me:	Mr. COMMONS
Lafortune, it is only after much trouble and hard work that I succeeded in obtaining this post office; I hope, sir, that you will carry on what I have begun. I pledged my word of honour that I would do all in my power to continue his work. In 1909, when I became a member of this House, the late Government at my request voted $15,000 for this post office. The land was bought, the plans were prepared and I was delighted to be able to spread the news that the post office was to be built at last. In 1910, all was about ready, with the exception of a survey which remained to be made and which occasioned .some delay in. starting work on the building. Then the unfortunate year, 1911, came upon us and the fate of the post office fell in the hands of my hon. friends.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Did a strike take place?


David Arthur Lafortune: And the $15,000 which had been placed in the Estimates at my request were no more to be seen in the Estimates of the second session of 1911-12. At that session, I applied for it, and nothing was granted; in 1912-13, I renewed my application, but was again refused. Before prorogation in 1913, I grumbled a little; I told the ex-Postmaster General that it was unfair to have left out this item; I insisted so much and I grumbled so much that I secured the promise that at the next session this item would be put back in the Estimates. In the Estimates of 1914, I did, to my delight, find those $15,000 in the Estimates. I was glad that at last justice should prevail. But now I find that nothing has been done. The $15,000 were there right enough, but figures on paper do not build post offices. This year that amount again show's up in the Estimates, but if nothing be done towards construction, I am no better off. Do you call that justice? Is not the newr Administration bound by the obligations entered into by its predecessors? I take it that when a Government has decided upon the construction of a post office, it must be in earnest and convinced that such a building is required for the public welfare and I say it is of especial necessity in that parish. I know the spirit of justice and sense of fair play of the Postmaster General and I put the question to him whether that project will long be left in abeyance. I therefore ask the Postmaster General-and I take this occasion of congratulating him on the trust that has been placed in him by the Prime Minister, on the confidence he has been shown by his electors, and on his elevation to a post of 
honour; he is one of the most brilliant advocates of this Dominion-to him then as minister and lawyer, I plead for fair play and ask him to give instructions for the construction of that post office. Otherwise he would fall a good deal in my esteem; not that further negligence would do me any harm; on the contrary, the more inefficient an Administration proves, the greater advantage can an opponent derive from exposing it; and I should make the most of it. But I personally am not in question here; I only seek to obtain justice for my constituency, because I say that once he is elected, a member represents not Liberals or Conservatives but all the electors of his county. The same holds good for ministers of the Crown; they have to adfninister the affairs of the country not for the advantage of Conservatives or Liberals only, but for the public weal; all must receive at their hands the same measure of justice. Will the hon. minister delay any longer the building of this post office? The candidate I had the good fortune of defeating at the last election is the one to oppose the proposal, intending thereby to get even with me. But so far as I am personally concerned, I do not require this building; I have my residence at Saint Laurent, in the county of Jacques Cartier; but the electors of Montcalm are anxious for it. We can see the $15,000 item in the Estimates, but we cannot see the foundations of the building. The ex-Postmaster General has been raised to the Bench, so much the better for him. He was a good friend of mine, although now and then we had our little wranglings. He had seriously considered the request of the electors of Montcalm, but the post office is still where it was. I insist once more that the minister see to it that the people of Montcalm receive fair treatment. Let him take Government supporters as architects, favour Conservative contractors and engage Tory workmen, if he would, but let him give us the post office. Otherwise it will be said that justice is denied those electors, and surely the minister would not have that said of him.
There is another small post office I wish to speak about. I had the misfortune of having it christened " Lafortune." An investigation "was made into charges against the postmaster, a poor man who had one arm severed by a threshing machine. His dismissal v'as asked but nothing improper could be brought home to him. But as he had to go, a scheme was devised: the post office was closed; then later it' was reestablished under the name of " Marion," my opponent, and another postmaster was

appointed. From what I know of the Postmaster General's sense of fairness, he will not countenance those petty devices; he is above any meanness of that kind and had he been in office at the time, he would not have allowed such a thing to pass. I am confident that he will take into his special consideration what I have said in favour of the electors whom I represent _and, I trust, will represent for a long time to come.
I heard what was said by the hon. member for Queens (Mr. Hughes). How could you expect that a court would without hesitation condemn an unfortunate employee of the Post Office Department who has taken 25 cents from a letter when the minimum penalty is three years. I have suggested and I insist again that the law should be amended so as to require the registration of every money letter. . If that were done, we would be spared the sight of good young men, belonging to respectable families, sentenced for the theft of 25 or 50 cents to three years in the penitentiary. There can be no surprise if the courts do all they can to save these young men from such a fate. The public, of course, must be protected; but I think it would receive more protection if the registration of all money letters was made compulsory. Registered letters, being easily traced, are not stolen; unregistered money letters are those that excite temptation. The minister knows that these thefts are committed by sons of respectable families, who have been recommended for their position by judges, senators or members. Not a week passes but application is made to me for the arrest of some of these unfortunate young men. It is a painful part of my duty. We should take away from these employees the opportunity of theft. If I thought the Government would favour a Bill to that effect I would introduce it immediately, but of what use would it be if it does not receive Government support. Some people steal $50,000 and $100,000 and they are sentenced to a few years only.
Will the minister please tell me if the post office which has been built in St. Laurent's parish will soon be open for business?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


David Arthur Lafortune: I
seconded Mr. Monk when ,he asked for this po-st office, because in my opinion it was necessary. Although I am not member for that county, I have my residence in that parish, and I say that the post
office should be opened soon. I therefore make a special request for it.
Mr. Chairman, as I have said, I hope that the minister will give instructions to have the work on the post office at St. Jacques de l'Achigan started without delay, so that at the next session, if I have again the honour to sit in this House, I shall not have to scold the minister, with whom I -wish to stand well, provided he treats me with fairness.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Just a few words in reply to my hon. friend. And first, let me thank him for his compliments. Apparently he wanted to please me particularly so as to induce me to build the post office at St. Jacques. Unfortunately I am not Minister of Public Works, and the building of post offices does not pertain in any way to my department. I would suggest that my hon. friend repeat his speech rvhen the Minister of Public Works is present, and I fain would believe that lie will grant his request.


David Arthur Lafortune: He
will so long as you recommend it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The hon. member may rest assumed that I shall recommend this post office. But he has no idea how hard-hearted the Minister of Public Works is. I have asked him for a number of post offices in my own county, but I have not yet been able to obtain them.


David Arthur Lafortune: In that
case, 1 shall help you.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Another question has been raised by my hon. friend; that is the punishment that should be meted out to those who steal letters My hon. friend, who has much experience with the Criminal Code, knows the seriousness of this crime and the consequence's it entails. The post office employee is a trustee, a servant of His Majesty, an agent of the people. If he fails in the performance of his duties, the punishment must be proportionate to the offence. Perhaps the penalty which is now provided is somewhat excessive-I am not prepared to discuss this point', but, in any case, it is a question which deserves the consideration of the Postmaster General and the Minister of Justice.
The interesting suggestion of the hon. member, that the public be compelled to register money letters, has been given out

again and again, and several times it was attempted to enact such a law. The attempt was made to introduce legislation to that effect such as exists in France- and I 'believe it is the only country where it is in force-but could never be adopted, because it could never find favour with public opinion. The Postmasters General who have sought to place this enactment in the statute 'books, have always met with opposition from the business community.
Mr. MARCH,:	The minister announced
some time ago that a new post office had been opened at Westmount, Montreal. Has a new post office been opened on St. Catherine street west lately?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am strongly under
the impression that a new post office has been opened on St. Catherine
10 p.m. street west, but I will seek further information and let my hon. friend know. Many sub-stations have been opened in the city of Montreal, and we are continuing to open new sub-stations. They are required by the constant increase in the population of the city.


Edmond Proulx: I would ask
the Postmaster- General if there is an existing regulation to compel people to register letters inclosing more than one dollar?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the department intend to increase the salaries of any class of the outside officials of the Post Office Department? Speaking specifically, I wish to know if the Government ever had in contemplation an increase in the salaries of letter carriers in Halifax. Has any increase been made in the salaries of mail carriers in the cities?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am told that they are well paid now, and it is not the intention of the department to increase their salaries.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has it been the intention in the past to increase their salaries?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are the salaries the same in all the cities?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Bowman Brown Law: Can I get a return for which I moved some time ago in reference to the dismissal of Mr. P. B. Hurlburt, Springdale, Digby county? There is very little

correspondence, and the return will be short.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: When did my hon.
friend move for the return?


Bowman Brown Law: Some two weeks ago or more.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: It is not the fault of
the department. We have been crowded with work lately. We have been using, all diligence. I will bring the return down as soon as it is physically possible to do so. We have a great many of these returns.


Mr. BOULAY (Translation):: Let me call the attention of the Postmaster General to the postal service on the railway between Campbellton and St. Leonard, in the county of Madawaska. This railway used to be operated by a private company, and the postal service was performed at fairly burdensome conditions. This railway has now been taken over by the Government.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: By the Intercolonial?
Mr. BOULAY' (Translation):	Yes. A
number of the settlers on that line come from the county of Rimouski, and that is why I am particularly interested in their welfare. Those good people ask for a daily service. True it is that the establishment of such a service may mean an excess of expenditure over revenue, but I believe that it should be granted all the same, to help on the development of that locality and promote its trade.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am
very thankful to the hon. member for having called my attention to the state of things that exist in that locality, and I can assure him that the question he has raised will have the immediate attention of the department.
Post office, outside service, mail service, $8,144,805.50.


George Perry Graham: What are the names
of the supervisors of Ithe parcel posit system? Where is the division between the eastern division and the western division?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The eastern division is east from an imaginary line running north and south through Montreal, and the western division from Montreal West to the Pacific coast, Dr. Fiset, of Montreal, is the supervisor for the eastern and Mr. Cornelius Gleeson is the supervisor for the western division.

Mr. GRAHAM.; What is Mr. Ross's position?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Superintendent of the city post offices for the western division. He is a most efficient officer.


Charles Marcil: Who occupies that position in the East?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Mr. Gaboury of Montreal, also a very efficient official.


George William Kyte: A few weeks ago I addressed a letter to the department in regard to the mail service between River Bourgeois and Cannes and the railway station at Sporting mountain. That service has been a source of great dissatisfaction and complaint to- the people served by those two post offices. The Cape Breton railway runs from Point Tupper, the terminus of the Intercolonial, to St. Peters, and carries the mail for the post offices along the route. River Bourgeois and Cannes are two post offices that serve a community about two and a half miles from the station. At the present time the mail courier carries the mail from those post offices, to the railway station in the evening, and the mail is taken aboard the train and carried to St. Peters, where it remains overnight. The consequence is that all letters for Halifax, St. John, Montreal and all post offices west of River Bourgeois must be mailed in the afternoon about three o'clock. They are then carried to the railway station at Sporting mountain, put aboard the train and carried down to St. Peters, where they lie over night, and the next day they are carried west. The result is that those people have not the advantage of a daily mail service. What they ask for is a connection between those two post offices and the railway station morning and evening, so that letters that are written overnight or early in the morning may be taken Ito the railway station and despatched to their destination by that day's train. I had this matter up when Mr. Lemieux w'as Postmaster General in the late Government. He submitted it to his officials, and I believe the reason why they refused at that time to give this additional accommodation was on account of the cost. It would probably be double the amount which the department is paying at present for carrying the mail between those two points. Those two post offices serve about 1,200 people. There are six or seven merchants in the village. There is a church and a telegraph office; and the inspector
of schools for the district of Richmond and Inverness resides in the village, and he receives a large quantity of mail from day to day. A petition was forwarded to the department -some years ago, but it was refused on the ground of the increased cost. When the department is spending so much money for rural mail delivery throughout the Dominion, from which it does not expect, according to a statement made by the Postmaster General to-night, that the expenses will ever be paid; and inasmuch as t$ie people receive no advantage from a rural mail delivery in the county of Richmond, or as a matter of fact in any portion of the Island of Cape Breton, I do not think it too much to ask that an actual daily service at least ought to be given to this large district. Even though the revenue to be derived from the post offices to be served by this contract should not be sufficient to pay the cost of giving the people the service requested, I think under all the circumstances that that ought not to be an insuperable hindrance to the carrying out of the improvement which is so much desired. As I have said, we have no rural mail delivery. We do not expect it; there is no demand for it, at present at all events. I wish the Postmaster General would take this matter up and show his determination to advance the postal accommodation in all parts of the country by acceding to the request of the people of that part of the constituency I have the honour to represent, and not permit the consideration of one or two hundred dollars additional cost to stand in the way of this improvement in the public service. The Postmaster General was good enough to state, in reply to my letter of a few weeks ago, that the matter khould be given further consideration. I realize, however, that the case will be submitted to the same officials who had it under consideration a few years ago. No doubt the same objections will be raised by these officials against the improvements I suggest, such objections as were urged against the carrying out of the improvements in the mail service between Grandi-que Ferry and West Arichat to which I referred a few hours, ago. I do hope the officials will take a broader view of this matter than they have taken in the past and will give to this important community the accommodation which very much less important communities have in all parts of Canada, a real bona fide daily mail service between the post office mentioned and the railway station.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I had the matter up with my officials a short time ago. They are not so hard-hearted as the hon. gentleman thinks they are. The only reason why I have not come to a conclusion on the question is that during the session, as the hon. gentleman will understand, it is extremely difficult to settle these matters. I am constantly interrupted by hon. gentlemen coming to see me, and whom, of course, I am very glad to see. But it is difficult under such conditions to reach a conclusion in matters of this kind. We hope that the session will not last long, and then we will take the matter up again. I hope to convince the officials, if they are not of my opinion and the hon. gentleman's, that we ought to have the service that he asks for.


George William Kyte: I should be glad to communicate the expression of good will on the part of the Postmaster General to the people who are so anxious for the improvements which I suggest.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I wish to draw the attention of the Postmaster General to the fact that the rural districts in my portion of the country, and I believe throughout Canada generally, are not given as good postal facilities as they deserve. In my constituency there are a number of places where they get a mail only weekly or twice a week. For years the " back to the land " .movement has been agitated. I do not believe there is a community in the Dominion-I am confident there is not in the province of New Brunswick-that ought not to have at least a daily mail. I would not give anything for the young man who wished to remain on the farm unless he could get his daily paper. Those of us living in other communities where we get our mail five or six times a day-and feel much put out if the mail is delayed by an hour-ought to be able to realize that people in a country district who receive a mail only once a week are not given proper mail facilities. I know the answer will be given that has been given on former occasions-that there is no revenue from these post offices. I remember coming to Ottawa a few years almost purposely to try to secure better mail accommodation and postal facilities for a certain community of forty or fifty farmers within four miles of the incorporated town of Sackville. I was met with the objection that there was no revenue from this post office. I answered that if a man got his mail there on a Monday he was not going to wait until next Monday to mail the reply. The post office 
at Sackville was given credit for the business of this smaller community. I speak on behalf of the country districts, especially those in my own constituency, but I believe I am voicing the opinions of the Maritime Provinces and of the Dominion generally. I believe we can do more to keep the young man on the farm, and to promote the " back to the land " movement by giving the people postal facilities than in any other way. We spend millions of dollars to get people to come from foreign countries to occupy the, very land from which we are driving our young men because we will not give them proper mail accommodation. I am a new member of this House, and do not know what the late Postmaster General did or did not do. But I have every confidence that the present Postmaster General (Mr. Casgrain) is anxious to improve the service of which he is the head. I believe there is no department of Government that deserves more or better attention than the Post Office Department. If there is one department more than another that the people expect to get good service from it is the Post Office Department. I am not speaking on behalf of the large centres because they have very good accommodation now; but I do speak for the rural districts and ask the Postmaster General to take this matter into consideration and see if something can be done.
I am not finding fault; the Post Office Department has done very well. But I believe that more can be done, and in a way that will bring satisfaction to people in rural places. I strongly contend that they have not been given fair consideration in the past. Nor am I finding fault with this Government more than with the other.
I came here more often when the other Government was in power and received very poor treatment as to securing proper mail facilities for the constituency I now represent. I would ask the Postmaster General to give attention and see what can be done to improve the mail service in the country districts.


Pius Michaud: Since the Postmaster
General is disposed to do something for the improvement of the mail service, I would call his attention to the service on the International railway. I believe this matter has been brought to his attention already. This railway communicates between St. Leonard and Campbellton, a distance of 116 miles, and makes a connection between the Canadian Pacific railway, the Transcontinental and the Intercolonial railway. They

have no mail service on the train. It has been asked for on several occasions within the last two years, but nothing has been done. There are many settlements along this railway line, and they have no mail accommodation of any kind.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Does my hon. friend say there is no mail service on the railway?


Pius Michaud: No good service anyway; for it takes three days for a letter to reach Campbellton from Edmundston, a distance of 150 miles. While I am on my feet, I wish to draw the attention of the Postmaster General to the fact that the revenues of Canada are not well distributed so far as public buildings are concerned. I am ready to give some figures with reference to revenues from post office and from customs. And, as this money goes to the treasury of Canada, 'I think that these places are entitled to receive consideration.
In the town of Edmundston, with a population of 2,000, we have a very poor post office and the service is sometimes not good on account of the lack of proper accommodation. There is a postal revenue at Edmundston of $2,800 yearly, and during the last five years Edmundston has given to the treasury of Canada $150,000. Yet we have no public building. I notice that from Claire, during the past five years, the Customs Department has received $91,000. At St. Leonard $58,000 has been paid. We have not even one public building throughout the county of Madawaska. I bring this fact to the attention of the Postmaster General in the hope that he will make an effort to have a public building erected at Edmundston. The revenues are there, as I have shown, and we are surely entitled to one public building.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: As I told the hon.
member for Montcalm (Mr. Lafortune), the erection of post offices and public buildings is not in my department, unfortunately for me; but I will make representations to my friend the Minister of Public Works and see whether I cannot bring him to build some more post offices, especially in my own constituency.


George Perry Graham: I see an item for drivers of automobiles, etc., for the post offices, $8,000. Does that include some of the cities where they collect letters by motor?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: In Toronto we have a great many motor trucks collecting mail, and the system is a very good one. We have motor cars in other cities.


George Perry Graham: In Montreal?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No, the transfer of mail there is done by contract with the Montreal Transfer Company.	.


George Perry Graham: How many of these other motor cars are there? I mean the ones that do not carry mails but the other kind of males?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: One in Ottawa, one in Montreal, one in Toronto, one in Sherbrooke and one in Quebec.


George Perry Graham: Four altogether?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I nearly got run down by one of these one night, and I wondered how many there were. There seemed to be about a dozen. This one must have been going about fifty miles an hour, violating all speed laws; it was too late for post office hours, and it seemed to me that every official in the city must have had one that night. I thought perhaps there were more than there ought to be. Is the department occupying the new post office at Eganville that has been in course of construction ever since the by-election three years ago?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will obtain that information for my hon. friend to-morrow?


George Perry Graham: The Public Works Department is building it, of course; but it is a comparatively small village and the post office has been under construction for two years or more, and it really ought to be completed by this time.
Post Office-for manufacturing of postage stamps, etc., $160,000.


George Perry Graham: In connection with the extra stamps required for the direct taxation, I saw a statement yesterday that it had been decided by the Government to permit the use of the ordinary one-cent postage stamp instead of a special stamp. Can the Postmaster General say if that is the case? If so, it would save a great deal of trouble and difficulty.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is right; they are issuing a war stamp, but in places where it would be inconvenient to get the war stamps the ordinary stamps may be used.


Charles Marcil: Will the Postmaster General mention the places?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not think so.


Charles Marcil: You will accept any stamp no mattex- where the letter comes from?
Mr. CASGRA1N: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: In the larger post offices in towns and villages, where the postmasters ai-e paid a proportion of the revenue but require to hire clerks and assistants, is that help paid by the postmasters?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the department any supervision over the class of people employed?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: In offices which are called revenue offices, where the postmaster is paid simply by the revenue, we do not appoint; but in the offices which are called semi-staff offices, where the postmaster is also paid by a proportion of the revenue, we appoint the employees ourselves and establish the salary. Of course, we always preserve a supei-vision over the employees of all offices.


Arthur Bliss Copp: In some post offices in my own county, Sackville, Shediac, etc., are the employees engaged by the Government or by the postmaster?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: By the postmaster.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand that the Post Office Department have supervision over the employees. .


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: To this extent, that if complaints were made we would tell the postmaster that he had to get other help.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not wish to make any charge against any pai'ticular postmaster, but maxxy complaints have come to me by letter, supplementing my own personal knowledge, that the young men and girls employed in these post offices are inefficient and do not attend to their duties properly; for instance, letters are all mixed up and placed in the wrong boxes. It is unpleasant for a citizen to have to makeaconx-plaint about these matters. I know that the mistakes are not committed wilfully, but some more stringent regulations should be made and enforced by the department, so that people would not be under the necessity of either putting up with that class of service or else making formal complaints. People do not like to do that sort of thing, which would perhaps lead to the dismissal of a neighbour. . In case of a charge being laid an investigation is held, and it is not pleasant for a citizen or a man in business to appear as complainant. Proper supervision is not made of the post

offices where the postmasters employ help. I see by the Postmaster General's report that in some places the postmasters rent buildings. Is there any possibility of them renting buildings of a certain price and receiving a higher allowance for rental from the Post Office Department?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The Post Office Department pays them an allowance based on the revenue, and the postmaster is bound to provide suitable pi'emises from his allowance.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The department might allow a postmaster $400, who is only paying $200 rental. Could that happen?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: He must give adequate accommodation.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Adequate is a very elastic
word which can be interpreted in a great many ways. Take Sackville, for instance. I am not finding fault because there is not a better post office there, but I should like the Postmaster General to urge his colleague to put up the building for which a lot costing $8,000 has already been bought. The present post office is situated on that lot, and the Government is paying interest on the lot, and a rental of $900 or $1,000 a year for the present post office and custom house. The town of Sackville is a college town and of some importance, but at present we have only a poor woodeix building for the post office and customs. I think the postmaster in every community should be allowed sufficient money to i-ent a decent building. I also wish to refer to the fact that in the small rural districts no allowance is made for the renting of buildings. In a great many cases you find the post office in somebody's back kitchen, and oftexx the post office sign hangs over the scullery doox^ and the people have to go through the kitchen to get their mail. Children are running around and caxx carelessly take the mail away. I say this is a disgrace.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What the hon. gentleman says is very ixxxportant, but if he deals in generalities it will be very hard for me to correct the abuses he speaks of. I would ask hinx to specify some place, and I can assure him that in a complaint of this nature we shall keep the name a secret.
Mr. COPP; I will be very glad to give my hon. friend the names privately. I am not exaggerating; this is what I have seen in a number of places throughout the



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country. I do not say that it applies to all country post offices, but to quite a number. I am not finding fault with any one, but I say that when the post office inspectors make their rounds they should see that some privacy is given in these places, and if the postmasters are not getting a sufficient allowance to rent a decent building, they should be allowed more. I do not say these postmasters are doing this sort of thing wilfully, but they are careless, and are not brought to book by the inspectors. Somebody's back kitchen is certainly not the place for a post office.
Mr. LALOR:: Does not the rural mail
in the county of Westmorland close up post offices of this kind?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes, in some cases; but Ithere are districts in Westmorland and elsewhere where there is no rural mail, and it is just in those districts where these places are found.


George Perry Graham: I should like to ask the minister about the extra stamp that is to be used on our mail. Does it apply only to such envelopes as are sealed? The reason 1 asked is that this point was mentioned to me, and I was not clear about it. If a booklet or a circular has to have the extra stamp, printers in large centres have represented to me that those who use a large amount of these booklets and circulars will probably have the printing done over the line and mail the matter from that side, where they would have to buy only a two-cent stamp. If that is the case the industry in Canada would lose the work, and the Government some of the revenue it expects.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: This extra stamp applies only to what are called letters, that is written letters, not to circulars of any kind.


George Perry Graham: They must be sealed?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes, if an envelope contains what is called a written letter the stamp would have to be put on it. This question does not come within my department, but that is my understanding.


William Chisholm: I would
like to ask the minister if he is in a position to state how many tenders were received for the mail service between Anti-gonish and Sherbrooke and who is the lowest tenderer?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I will give the hnn.
gentleman that information.


William Chisholm: Also, could he supplement the information that was asked for early in February in respect to the tenders that were received for the service due in his office in December last?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Yes.
Post office-Yukon territory, $150,000.


George Perry Graham: Is the population of the Yukon that is to be served increasing or decreasing?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Decreasing.


George Perry Graham: I suppose that the expense will naturally decrease but not to the extent that the population will?
Mr. CASGRAIin : We do not feel justified in decreasing the vote yet.


Charles Marcil: If you are sending a
letter bearing a five-cent stamp to Europe, will you be required to put on an additional ' one cent stamp?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: That is a question
we have not yet decided upon. It is a very difficult question to decide on account of the Postal Union and Convention. 1 would ask my hon. friend not to press the question.


Charles Marcil: I think this discussion
would not oe complete if we did not ask the present minister whether the famous padlocks have proved satisfactory and the number that were purchased during the past year.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have a statement
upon this question which I will read:
The lock for closing mail bags now and for the past twenty years in use in the service having outlived its usefulness, the Ontario Equipment Company In 1912 submitted to the department a lock for which they had obtained patent rights from the inventors, and the firm manufactured 10,000 of these locks for the de partment, it being the intention to have this number of locks tried out in certain portions of the Dominion before giving any further orders.
When this lot of locks was delivered, however, they were found from a post office standpoint defective and unsuitable for the service, and could therefore not be entertained, the department refusing to pay for the same, and the whole lot (10,000) was rejected and returned to the Ontario Equipment Company.
The company then submitted a similar lock, but greatly improved and overcoming all the objections found to the former one, besides being somewhat less costly than the first lock submitted; but, profiting by past experience, before placing an order for this improved lock the department submitted a certain number to practical post office men, as well as to expert locksmiths, in various cities throughout the Dominion. The unanimous report from all these officers was so much in favour of this



lock that the department placed an order for 10,000 of them with the contractor, and is now engaged in the organization of a system for the introduction of this lock into the service gradually, it being the intention to thereby spread the necessarily heavy expenditure in connection with the introduction of the new lock through the whole service, over a period of several years.
This lock is repaired free of charge, under a guarantee, for a period of two years, hut owing to the simplicity of the construction, the repairing of this lock after that period is hoped to be virtually nil. The average cost of obtaining new locks and repairing old ones has been between $8,000 and $10,000 annually, and this sum will be quite sufficient for the gradual introduction of the new lock, without increasing the average annual expenditure whatever.
The lock costs 75 cents and the key 18 cents, making a total of 93 cents. The lock formerly used cost 80 cents and the key 20, or $1 complete. We gained 7 cents on each lock, and we have a much better lock.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Casgrain, the House adjourned at 10.52 p.m.
Wednesday, March 24, 1915.