1915-03-19

REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
Sixth annual report of the Board of Civil Service Commissioners.-Hon. Louis Coderre.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EDMOND PROULX (Prescott) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 77, to amend the Senate and House of Commons Act. He said: This Bill is intended further to secure the independence of members of the Senate and House of Commons, and at the same time to safeguard the interests of the country. In these days of extensive purchases by the Government without public tender, I believe that the present legislation on this subject needs to be amended. As the law is at present, a member of this House or of the Senate is prevented from having any contract or business dealings with the Government, but he may be a shareholder in a company, and be largely interested in that company, which has the right to contract with the Government, except in the case of a company which undertakes to contract for a public building or other public work. By this Bill, I wish to add to the companies prevented from dealing with the government any company in which a member of this House or of the Senate is a director, or in which he holds, directly or indirectly, a controlling interest.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. T. White (Minister of Finance), the House went into 
Committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Bank Act by permitting the chartered banks up to the 1st day of July, 1915, to lend money for the purchase of seed grain upon the security of the grain purchased, the crop to be grown therefrom, and the grain threshed from the crop, and that any Act founded on this resolution be deemed to have come into force on the 15th day of March, 1915.
Mr. WPIITE:: This resolution is almost self-explanatory. We propose to amend section 88 of the Bank Act by allowing a bank to lend money to the owner, tenant or occupier of land for the purchase of seed grain, upon the security of the crop to be grown from such seed grain. At present it is not open to the banks to take such security, and it was thought advisable, having regard to the desirability during this year of greatly increasing production and prevailing financial conditions, that the amendment should be made and this additional power given to the banks. Representations have been made to me for some time past with regard to this matter. I took it up with all the chartered banks in Canada, and while it appears perfectly clear from the replies which I have received from the banks that the general credit and standing of the borrower will still be a controlling factor in their determination of whether or not loans will be made, it would appear also that it may be an advantage to the borrowing community that this legislation should be enacted, as the banks would, I am convinced, be more ready to lend than if they were not permitted to take this security.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: The present provisions of the Act covered this-not so far, I admit, as lending on the seed grain itself, which would be no security; but after that seed grain is once sown and harvested, the present provisions of the Bank Act would enable a bank to make advances upon the security of that grain. I do not see how one can differentiate between general grain and grain grown from seed purchased by the Government.


Mr. WHITE:: I think my hon. friend is correct in stating that once the crop is reaped and the grain harvested, if an agreement had been taken for a lien, it would probably be given effect to by the courts; but the section of the existing legislation to which I have referred does not cover the case of growing crops. As my hon. friend knows, growing crops are in a sense real estate and not personal property. We propose to give a lien analogous to the lien

which is given under legislation of certain of the provinces, in the West solely, so far as I am advised, by which legislation a lien may be given for advances made for the purchase of seed grain, upon the growing crop as well as upon its product when harvested and threshed.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: Does the minister know whether the banks are prepared to avail themselves of this proposal if it is adopted?


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Do not worry about
that.


William Thomas White: The banks must exercise
their discretion in regard to all applications for loans. It is not open to a government to enact compulsory legislation unless the further step is taken of supplying the financial institutions with money. The banks have to loan out money which is placed on deposits with them by the public throughout the country. It is for them to exercise their discretion as to whether or not in particular cases they will or will not extend credit. Our object in introducing this legislation is to enable a bank to take a lien, the idea being that, being able to take this additional security, it would be more willing to lend in a case in which there might be some doubt as to whether the loan was a good one or not. I believe that this legislation will facilitate the extension of credit to the farmers for the purpose of purchasing seed grain.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I presume
that this legislation is introduced in response to many requests which have come to my ihon. friend chiefly from western farming communities. I am under the impression that this is not the first time that similar legislation has been requested. There have been many efforts on the part of farming communities to (have the Bank Act amended in the way in which it is proposed to amend it temporarily. The question is not free from doubt as to whether or not such a departure from well-known banking principles will work satisfactorily. At all events, this legislation will serve as an experiment. I never could see why it could not be done. There are, of course, some conflicting principles. For instance, a moment ago my hon. friend said very properly that a standing crop is part of the realty. Under the present law of the province of Quebec, the crop would go to the purchaser of the soil. It is easy, however, by legislation to give a bank the necessary power to collect its lien. From
time to time the banking law has been amended to advance credit further so as to enable men to get accommodation from the banks. This is another step in that direction. It is an experiment, and I hope and believe it will woik out satisfactorily.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: With one exception, I am quite in favour of the resolution as presented by the Minister of Finance. He brings it into effect only until the 1st of August, 1915. A provision of this character is of such value to the farming communities of western Canada in particular, that it should become a part of the Bank Act of Canada and should remain in force along with the other provisions of that Act.


William Thomas White: I think my right hon. friend has put the matter very fairly in saying that such legislation has not in the past at least, been regarded as being free from doubt, and that this amendment is in the nature of an experiment. From the experiment which we shall make with this, we shall be in a better position to judge as to the advisability of adopting the suggestion put forward by my hon. friend. In the past, either this question specifically-or questions analogous to it-as to the security which may be taken by banks from their customers, has been very much discussed in the House and in the Banking and Commerce Committee. In the past one consideration as against legislation of this kind has had great weight with the House; that is, that the banker's lien is a secret lien, and one reason why Parliament has not been willing to permit banks to lend upon chattel security or to extend the list of securities upon which banks may lend money, has been that other creditors, who would not be aware of the existence of the lien, might be prejudiced, and that parties who had themselves taken a lien might find themselves cut out by a secret lien taken previously to their encumbrance, without notice on their part. Therefore the question is not entirely free from difficulty; but for the present year, and having regard to the exceptional situation which prevails, we think we may well enact this legislation, which, by the way, we intend shall date back to March 15, 1915. I notified the banks on the introduction of this resolution in order that any steps that they might take, immediately between March 15 and the date of the passage of this Bill, would be authorized and legalized by this legislation.
Mr. BUCHANAN1: I agree somewhat with the remarks of the hon. member for Strath-

cona (Mr. Douglas) in this respect. This is not compulsory upon the banks, but it gives them the right to do this, if they want to do so. If it were extended and made a feature of the Bank Act, it would rest with the banks as to whether they would make the ^advances or not. I think there is something to be said in favour of making it a permanent feature of the Act.
I would like to point out to the minister something which has relation to the condition in my own district, and which applied not only to seed grain, hut to feed for live stock. I think that in the recent amendments to the Bank Act provision was made whereby banks may lend money on the security of live stock. In my district great difficulty is experienced in securing feed for live ^tock. The Government is providing feed for work horses and some other farm animals, but I have received a great many complaints to the effect that the farmers are not in a position to borrow money from the banks to secure feed which will carry them through till harvest time. The owner of a large number of cattle or hogs or sheep who cannot get assistance from the Government is in the position that he cannot get assistance from the banks. He cannot get feed on credit, and he is forced to dispose of his live stock at a great sacrifice. I think that the banks should go out of their way to assist any farmers who have difficulties in that respect and of whose credit they are satisfied. I am led to believe, however, that the banks, without considering the credit of the farmer or the stock raiser, simply take the view that they will not lend money-and they are not lending it. Consequently, mixed farming in my section of the country is suffering severely by reason of the action of the banks in this respect. My criticism does not apply to all banks, because I know that some of the banks are treating the farmers fairly liberally in this respect. A great many of them, however, are not, and the result is that the farmers are losing their live stock. Although the banks may not avail themselves of any provision which may be made to obviate this difficulty, I would be glad if the Minister of Finance would urge upon them the desirability of their being more liberal in their treatment of the farmers, thus enabling the farmers to retain their live stock which they have purchased in recent years and which during the last season many of them have been forced to sacrifice on account of lack of feed. I received a communica-

tion this morning stating that the policy of the department was largely confined to providing feed for work horses in order that the crop should be put in this spring. I am told that the supplying of feed does not apply to milch cows; it is needless to say that it would be a serious matter for the farmers to have to sacrifice their milch cows at this time. Conditions are so critical that the farmer may lose many of their animals by being obliged to dispose of them at very small prices.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Any provision which
would enable the farmers to obtain credit certainly ought to commend itself to this committee. But I think in considering this measure one ought to bear in mind that the farmer would benefit by being enabled to get credit from storekeepers and from the people with whom he is accustomed to deal and from whom he is in the habit of getting his supplies. That brings up the consideration as to whether they or these bankers' liens should be secret. I do not believe that a banker's lien upon lumber or upon any other article ought to be a secret lien. If the banker takes a lien upon grain and upon the products of grain, I do not see why that lien should not be filed in the local registry office, so that everybody who chooses to make inquiry would be able to find out just what liens exist against a man who may be getting credit from the storekeeper or from any other person. By extending the banker's lien and still providing that it shall be secret, you hamper the farmers in getting credit from the persons with whom they have business transactions and the dealers from whom they may desire to purchase. Can my hon. friend suggest any reason why a banker's lien should be secret? If a man borrows from a private individual and gives a bill of sale, that bill of sale must be filed in the registry office. If he buys machinery on a vendor's lien or a lien note, that lien note must be filed in the registry office. That is the law; why should the banks be singled out for exceptional legislation and be allowed to make secret agreements? When the debtor finds himself unable to meet all his obligations, the banks may get in first and sweep away everything which the man has, leaving the other creditors absolutely without remedy or relief.
Mr. WHITE; My hon. friend has put forth very cogently the reasons which have usually been given in the House, in connection with the decennial revision of the

Bank Act, why the bankers' lien under section 88 of the existing legislation, should not be extended. The matter to which he refers was given very careful consideration by the Banking and Commerce Committee at the last revision, and was also discussed to some extent in the House. It was shown to the satisfaction of the committee that on account of the vast number of transactions, running up to a great number every day, which take place in this connection, it is inexpedient that the liens taken upon merchandise generally and lumber, to which my hon. friend particularly referred, should be registered. It was also shown to the satisfaction, I think, of the committee, that no disadvantage resulted to the community as a whole by reason of the existing legislation. Both the committee and the House were unwilling, however, to extend the principle of secret lien so as to enable the banks to take, let us say, chattel mortgages-mortgages upon all kind's of chattel property.
My hon. friend has said that he thinks it advisable that these liens should be registered, and there is much to be said for that view. But he will recognize that if a provision were made for registration, machinery would have to be created whereby the liens could be registered. The one great difficulty in the way at present is that in the province of Quebec such a thing as a chattel mortgage is not known; it is prohibited by law. There is in that province no provincial organization such as exists in the province of Ontario, let us say-and, I believe, in almost all the other provinces- whereby a mortgage, as we call it in Ontario, of that character, can be conveniently registered upon the payment of a small fee. It would be necessary, therefore, in connection with this measure which I am now introducing, if we decided that these liens should be registered, to create machinery in the province of Quebec for that purpose. A proposal of this kind would have to receive very careful and somewhat prolonged consideration. My hon. friend is not in disagreement with myself as to this. He evidently has in his mind that the farming community may be prejudiced in obtaining credit from storekeepers and others by reason of the possible existence of a lien in favour of the banks. There is also this view: that storekeepers and other creditors might be prejudiced by the existence of a secret lien of which they had no knowledge. That is the reason why Parliament in the past has not been willing to agree to the extension of the secret lien.
The seed grain situation this year is exceptional, because there appears without doubt to be a serious shortage of seed grain, especially in the West. The Government is doing what it can. I think we appropriated some $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 for the purpose of making advances to the farmers of the West in order to enable them to procure seed grain, which action is necessarily limited to those areas of the country which have been drouth-stricken because, speaking generally, when you deal with those who have patented their lands, as opposed to those who have not yet secured patents, who are the wards of the Government in a sense, any action of this character should be provincial rather than Dominion. If the Dominion assumed the task of financing any class of the community its action would have to be Dominion wide, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and I think it is common ground to both this Government and the Government which preceded it, as is shown clearly by the correspondence of 1908 with relation to seed grain advances, that once land is patented, prima facie, the duty of assisting those who had the patented lands devolves upon the provincial government. However, this has been an exceptional year, as was 1908; and the Government, as I have stated, decided to make very large advances to assist those in the drouth-stricken district to purchase seed grain. In order to carry out the suggestion of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) to provide for the registration of these liens, much more consideration would be required than we are able to give to it this year or than the House would be able to give to it; and as the measure is temporary and as my right hon. friend has said in the nature of an experiment, and as it may be demonstrated by experience that this legislation may safely be made permanent, I think the Government are quite justified in introducing this measure to meet the exceptional situation which prevails.


Mr. GERMAN:: The minister stated that this suggestion as to the registration of the liens had passed Parliament and the committee of Parliament when the Banking Act was up for discussion, to the satisfaction of Parliament and the committee. It probably did pass to the satisfaction of the majority of the House and the majority of the committee, but not with the unanimous sanction of Parliament or the committee, because it was pretty seriously discussed then and is a serious problem as was stated by the hon. member for St. John. The min-

ister says that no machinery exists or could be made to exist at the present time. It appears to me it would be the easiest thing in the world to devise machinery for the registration of these liens, that they could be registered with the clerk of the county court in each county and have a fee of 10 cents paid to the registrar or clerk of the court. Then every one would have notice that the bank did not have a lien. I for one think that the bank has altogether too much advantage over ordinary creditors throughout the country. They have the best of it all the way through.


William Thomas White: The banks have not asked for this legislation.


William Manley German: Certainly not.


William Thomas White: I am not introducing it at the instance of the banks, but at the instance of those who think it would facilitate the extension of credit in the West.


William Manley German: Quite so, but my hon. friend is failing to put in a clause providing for the registration of the lien at the instance of the bank. The banks do not want the lien registered, hut it should be registered.
Resolution reported, read the first and the second time and agreed to.
Hon. W. T. WHITE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 78, to amend the Bank Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. MACDONALD:: A few days ago I asked whether any Order in Council had been made providing for the appointment of a Committee of Council to deal with militia or war expenditures.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: Is the hon. gentleman alluding to orders from the British and foreign Governments or to expenditures by the Canadian Government?


William John Macdonald: Either or both, whichever the right hon. gentleman would give me information about.


Robert Laird Borden: There has been a sub-Committee of Council, not appointed in any formal way, in each case. They bring in their reports to Council, and anything that is done is the work of Council as a

whole, after the committee make their report, which is a very common mode of procedure.


Wilfrid Laurier: A committee composed of whom?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could not say from memory. It is quite a large committee. I will get that information.


William John Macdonald: The right hon. gentleman promised to give me the information.


Robert Laird Borden: I am bringing it down now. My hon. friend asked whether or not an Order in Council had been passed. I made inquiry and found that there was no Order in Council; but if it is desired that information should be given as to who were the members of the Committee of Council, I will get that; in fact, I have already given directions. It has not at all times been composed of the same ministers, as different members of Council have been added to it from time to time.


William John Macdonald: Was a separate committee appointed for the purpose of dealing with expenses made by the Canadian Government in connection with the war?


Robert Laird Borden: I am not sure
whether that would be done by the same committee or not, but it is my recollection that the committee was composed in the same way. I can ascertain about that.


Wilfrid Laurier: I notice by an answer that was given yesterday that certain purchases were made in the absence of the Minister of Militia. I presume these expenditures were made upon the report of that committee?


Robert Laird Borden: That would not necessarily follow. In the absence of the Minister of Militia, the matter would be taken up by the acting minister.



INSURANCE COMPANIES-EXTENSIONS OF TIME.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. C. J. Doherty (Minister of Justice), the House went into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to provide that any insurance company whose power to apply for a license under the provisions of the Insurance Act, 1910, will expire before the end of the next session of Parliament, may obtain an extension of such power until the end of the next session of Parliament, by filing a notice in prescribed form with the Superintendent of Insurance, and paying a fee of one hundred dollars.
Mr. DOHERTY:: Insurance companies,
which, under section 78 of the Insurance Act of 1910, are subjected to forfeiture of their charters unless they obtain a license within a period of two years after the granting of the charter, will by this Act be allowed, under certain conditions, to obtain an extension of that time. It was considered that under the existing circumstances there would probably be, or at all events there might possibly be, a fairly large number of companies whose two-year term would expire between now and the next session of Parliament and who, under existing conditions, would find it impossible or at all events very difficult to initiate their business before the expiry of the time limit. In fact, a certain number of applications have already been made and private Bills passed. It was also thought desirable to avoid passing the considerable number of private Bills that might have been presented by reason of these conditions, and we are in consequence making this extension general, subject to the condition that the companies must advance reasons why the time should be extended, and further that their time limit expires between now and the next session of Parliament. This Act will make it possible for companies filling that condition to obtain an extension of time, by filing a notice with the Superintendent of Insurance within two months after the passing of this Act.


Mr. NESBITT:: This Bill, when passed, will not change the Acts under which these companies received their charters ?


Charles Joseph Doherty: It will simply enable them to get an extension of that period of two years. Everything else will remain the same.


William Manley German: 
Charles Joseph Doherty: We are doing something for them that in the ordinary course of events would have to be done by the passing of a private Bill, and the passing of a private Bill would cost more than $100. If it is proper that fees should be paid for private legislation, it seemed to us not improper that these companies should pay something-and I understand that $100 is less than what they would have to pay for a private Bill-for obtaining relief by this exceptional method.


William Manley German: It will not be necessary for them to obtain a private Bill P This fee covers the whole thing P


Charles Joseph Doherty: Upon application, accompanied by this fee, the extension will be granted until the expiry of the next session of Parliament.


William Manley German: Then they would have to get a private Bill ?


Charles Joseph Doherty: If they wanted a
further extension, but it may be doubted whether Parliament would grant a further extension to those companies that did not initiate their business before the end of the next session of Parliament. We are saving them from the difficulty that might be incurred between now and the next session of Parliament.


William John Macdonald: How many companies would this apply to ?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to know how many companies will, between now and the next session of Parliament, have reached their time limit of two years from the date of their charter; but the Act will make it possible for all those companies to obtain an extension, provided they make application within two months of the passing of this Bill.


William John Macdonald: What has been the practice in the past with regard to a new charter?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not know of an
instance where a measure precisely of this character has been considered necessary or desirable, but as I said at the outset we believed, and that belief has been justified by a certain number of communications which have been received, that at the present session of Parliament we should have numerous applications of this kind; and one of the reasons that moved us in introducing this Bill was to relieve Parliament at this session of the necessity of dealing with possibly a very large number of such applications. In addition to that, there was reason to believe, in fact we had reason to know from a number of communi-actions received, that the present condition might make it difficult for companies to initiate their business within the prescribed time, although those companies might ultimately be in a position to start up in their business. Our principal object in bringing in this Bill was to enable us to deal by one measure with what we had reason to believe, and what I still believe, would have been a large number of applications for extensions, which in the past Parliament has made no great difficu'ty about granting.


William John Macdonald: The effect of tins measure is very wide. If the argument of my hon. friend holds good, there is no reason why the Government should not at any session of Parliament introduce legislation extending any railway charter, for instance, that might expire between two sessions of Parliament. That would be handing over to the Government the functions of this Parliament. It is this Parliament which grants the charters and whose function it is to determine whether that charter shall be renewed. My hon. friend is introducing a rather serious principle when he asks Parliament to abrogate its functions entirely, and to give up the right of scrutiny which the people's representatives here have in regard to all questions affecting the status of companies applying for charters, such as, whether their operations are bona fide, and all the other matters which Parliament ought to determine. If, as the minister says, this legislation is without precedent, it is a very important transgression upon the right of Parliament to deal with these matters. It means the transference from Parliament to the Government of important functions which hitherto have been vested solely in Parliament. Perhaps I may be wrong in my apprehension as to the effect of the measure, but I would judge, from what the minister says, that I am correct.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Parliament is not being asked to part with its power, save to a very limited extent, indeed. If this particular action is not justified by the exceptional circumstances, then I do not know that it would be justified at all. Parliament has. in view of the existing circumstances, confided to the Government very much wider and more important powers than the power that is involved in this resolution. It is a purely transitory measure. In two months from the date that the Bill is sanctioned, it will be absolutely without effect. It is only to meet a passing condition, and I think the hon. gentleman is unduly apprehensive in anticipating any serious consequences to be attached to it as involving any renunciation of any principle or the abandonment by Parliament of any of its powers.


William John Macdonald: With all due deference to my hon. friend, I fail to appreciate the force of his argument. Because Parliament has conveyed to the Government certain exceptional rights which they are supposed to exercise, and has given them power to deal with conditions which are

exceptional and which arise on account of the war, I fail to see a justification of the proposition, that, having given certain powers to railway and other companies possessing federal charters, these powers to be exercised within a certain period of time, we are to abandon altogether our right to scrutinize the actions of these companies and relinquish that power to the Government. It is not any condition resulting from the war that gives rise to this legislation. Why should not all these people whose charters were about to expire this year have given notice of their intention to apply to this House for an extension of time, and why should Parliament not have been asked to deal with this question in one case as well as in the other?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I have put forward the reasons that I have to give to justify this legislation. I have endeavoured to be as clear as I could, and I have nothing further to add to what I have already said. If my reasons do not carry conviction to the mind of my hon. friend, I can only express my regrets.


William John Macdonald: Do I understand that the minister declines, or is unable, to tell us why these companies should not have given notice in the regular way?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I have endeavoured to give the reasons. I have given all the reasons I have. I think they are satisfactory reasons but the hon. gentleman thinks they are not satisfactory.


William John Macdonald: I did not hear my
hon. friend give any answer to the question I am asking him now.


Charles Joseph Doherty: 1 do not know why
they could not have done it, and I do not suppose they could not have done it. It would have been possible to do it. That is so obvious that I would have thought the hon. member would have known it without my telling him, but what I was pointing out was that we had reason to believe, and we did believe, tnat, owing to present conditions, a large number of these applications were exceedingly probable. There was a general desire that the business of this session should, as far as possible, be confined to matters arising out of the present condition of war. It was also desired that the session should not be unduly prolonged in attending to matters of this kind. Under these circumstances it was thought a proper thing to ask Parliament to confide to the Government of the day this power to be exercised during this limited period of two months. These are all the

reasons I have to give. I cannot say why it was Impossible for these companies to give notice and come to this House. I do not suggest that it was, and therefore I have no reason to offer in sunnort of any suggestion that it was impossible. It is for the House to say whether the reasons I have advanced, as forming the ground upon which this legislation is before the House, are sufficient but they do not imply that it was impossible to give notice.


William John Macdonald: Then I understand
the minister to say that he bases this legislation, which means the abnegation by Parliament of its rights, on the conditions created by the war? If my hon. friend puts it on that ground it is entirely different from the other ground.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I suppose everybody
will determine for himself what are the causes of the existing conditions.
Resolution reported, read the first and the second time, and agreed to.
Mr. DOHERTY thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 79,
4 p.m. to authorize certain extensions of time to insurance companies.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Royal Nortiiwest Mounted Police, $1,406,691.
['Yes, these are new sections.']
Robert Laird Borden: There is a very substantial increase in this amount, due to the increase in the force which has been authorized by Parliament.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many
men are there in the force now?


Robert Laird Borden: 
Wilfrid Laurier: Are the police continuing the patrol of the northern waters?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, the same as in previous years. The controller informs me that the men who have been added to the force within the past year are of very good type. They have been very apt in learning their training and discipline and they are very effective members of the force.
"Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:	Are these additions to be permanent, or are they due to the war?


Robert Laird Borden: We thought it desirable to add to the force, but in view of the situation the usual time of enlistment was reduced, and the men have been enlisted for one year.


Wilfrid Laurier: Have any new arrangements been made with the Governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan with regard to the force?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, and no. There has been correspondence of a confidential character with the Governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta which I shall be very glad to submit to my right hon. friend. In Saskatchewan matters stand precisely where they were under the arrangement made some years ago; and so far as I can gather it is the proposal of the Government of that province to have their own provincial police force. The same communications which were made to the Government of Saskatchewan were made to the Government of Alberta, but there has been a more extended correspondence with the Government of the latter province, the result of which is that I am confident we shall come to a satisfactory arrangement with the province of Alberta for the continuance of the force. The terms which were recommended to me by the controller and by the commissioner had my approval, and just two days ago we had what I think may be regarded as the



final reply of the Government of Alberta. That reply is of such a character that 1 think an agreement will be reached. As to Saskatchewan, I do not think there is any prospect of such an arrangement. We have not had any suggestion that the Saskatchewan Government would be inclined to have the arrangement continued. So far as Alberta was concerned, it was largely a question of the length of time for which the Alberta Government would be prepared to enter into an arrangement. We could not very well go to certain necessary expenditure in that province except for a fairly reasonable term. We represented that condition to the Premier of Alberta, who received it in a very reasonable way <md apparently saw the force of it. The letter which I have just received froan him will, I think, result in an arrangement which will be satisfactory to both Governments.
Pensions, $106,869.57.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN-: Are we paying any pensions on account of the South African war? If so, what is the amount?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could not give my toon, friend the information.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I suppose some pensions are being paid on account of that war?


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose so. I am not sure.
Special allowance to Sir Charles Fitzpatrick to cover expenses in connection with the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, $2,500.


Mr. PROULX:: How many trips to London does the Chief Justice make each year?


Robert Laird Borden: He usually goes twice, so far as my memory serves me.
To assist in the suppression of the white slave traffic, $10,000.


Edmond Proulx: An officer was appointed some two years ago-Mr. Lambkin-in connection with this matter. I understand that he is not now engaged in this work. Has he been replaced.


Robert Laird Borden: This money is
expended under the direction of Col. Sherwood, Commissioner of Dominion Police. Mr. Lambkin was employed in the work for a time, I think, but he is not engaged in it at present.
Salaries and expenses of the Paris agency, $28,000.


Robert Laird Borden: This is the same as last year. I only desire to say in con-[S;r Robert Borden.]
nection with this vote that Mr. Roy has rendered very efficient and diligent service to this country and to the interests of the Empire generally during the past eight months.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.
Allowance to Mr. W. .1. Stewart, chief hydro-grapher, for services performed under Order in Council of the 19th October, 1912, in relation to the questions under consideration by the International Joint Commission during the year 1915-1916, $1,000.


Robert Laird Borden: I gave a full explanation with regard to this on a previous occasion. We are voting this amount from year to year for the reason that the duration of the treaty under which these questions are considered is uncertain; it was made for a limited period. We do not know at the moment whether it is desirable or necessary to make a permanent arrangement; therefore we think that in the meantime this temporary arrangement, which has proved remarkably efficient, had better be continued.
Amount required to meet expenses of the technical board appointed to consider questions relating to the level of the Lake of the Woods, $10,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What progress has been made with this work?


Robert Laird Borden: The latest information that I have with regard to it is that expert examination was being made of the levels with a view to having a report made, if I remember correctly, to each section of the commission. I do not think that that expert examination has yet been completed. However, I shall be glad to let this stand.


Wilfrid Laurier: Oh, no; I
wanted to know if any progress had been made. This is a very important work.


Robert Laird Borden: It is an important work, and I think it will take a good deal of time to complete. It is very proper that the House should be made acquainted with the exact position of the work. If my hon. friend will permit it to pass, I will take occasion to inform the House at a later date as to the precise situation of the matter.
Grant towards the erection of a monument to Samuel de Champlain at Orillia, Ont-revote of a lapsed amount, $7,500.


William Manley German: Why is that being erected at Orillia?

125J


Robert Laird Borden: I believe Orillia is one of the spots noted in the explorations of M. de Champlain. At least it is so represented to us, and I believe there is historical ground for the belief.


Edmond Proulx: Did he not land on Nepean point here before landing there?


Robert Laird Borden: We have a . statue on Nepean point.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: While this is not a good year to suggest expenditure, especially if one has urged retrenchment on the Government, I do think that at some time in the near future we should take into consideration the matter of the erection of a monument to the historian Parkman, who is really Canada's leading historian.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Oh, no, we cannot admit that Parkman is Canada's greatest historian.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The greatest historian of Canada, I shall put it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is my judgment, and I think it would be the opinion of Canadians generally. I think it quite appropriate that some recognition should be given this noted historian by the erection in these grounds of a monument to him.


Robert Laird Borden: As my hon. friend has very well said, this is hardly the time to take these matters into consideration; but at some future session we would be very glad to have him express his views at some length and to consider his suggestion.


Wilfrid Laurier: The International Committee for the Centennial Celebration of peace between Canada and the United States has in contemplation a project by which the commission will undertake to have a statute erected to Parkman in the Ottawa Government grounds, a statue of Queen Victoria erected in Washington, and a statue of Lincoln in London. Thus I think the wishes of my hon. friend will be gratified. The Postmaster General has in his mind that my hon. friend has forgotten Garneau.
Grant to Medical Council of Canada, $15,000.


William Pugsley: What is that for?


Robert Laird Borden: There is a medical council for the whole of Canada constituted in accordance with legislation passed by this Parliament which could not become effective until assented to by all the provinces. After some time it was assented 79i
to by all the provinces. This grant was made some time ago when the council was first constituted, and it has been continued. It is for the purpose of meeting in part the expenses which the council has undertaken in connection with the carrying out of examinations and other necessary arrangement for the purpose of enabling medical practitioners entitled to practise in one province to practise in any other province in Canada.


William Pugsley: 
Robert Laird Borden: My right hon. friend will observe that whereas last year the amount was $1,013,000, this year the total is only $763,600. He will also notice many imperatively necessary items. For instance, there is $78,000 for the Canada Gazette; $2,000 for the distribution of Parliamentary documents; $100,000 for miscellaneous printing; $2,000 for expenses under the Canada Temperance Act; $20,000 for expenses under the Naturalization Act; $10,000 to assist in suppression of the white slave traffic; $28,000 salaries and expenses of the Paris agency and so on. Thus the total I have mentioned includes a great many necessary items.


William Pugsley: Take, for example, the British Columbia Better Terms Commission. Nothing was done last year, and I would think that we need not go on with the inquiry this year.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not propose to take that up to-day, but I think that when I do take it up I shall be able to show my hon. friend that he is under a great misapprehension when he says that nothing was done last year.

However, I do not desire to discuss it now.


William Pugsley: I have not seen any
report.


Robert Laird Borden: There is no
report, because the work lias not been done.


Edmond Proulx: Does the Dominion
Medical Council report to the Government?


Robert Laird Borden: I really could
not tell my hon. friend. * I will obtain the information and let him know.


Edmond Proulx: I believe that the candidates who present themselves for examination are charged a fee of $100. I think the council could collect enough money to carry on its business without receiving assistance from this Government.


Robert Laird Borden: Would my hon friend like the item to stand?


Edmond Proulx: Yes.
Item stands.
Royal Academy of Arts, $5,000.


William Pugsley: What is that for, and
where is the society situated?


Robert Laird Borden: I remember
that a delegation -rom the society saw me with regard to obtaining a grant. Would my hon. friend like this to stand?


William Pugsley: I think that, at this
session especially, some reason should be given why sums of money are being granted to societies.


Robert Laird Borden: A reason ought to be given for everything, we will let the item stand. I have the information, but I cannot recall it at the moment.
Item stands.
Grant towards the erection of a monument at Lacolle Mill, Que., for the heroes of 1812-14 -revote, $1,000.


William Pugsley: What is the explanation of that?


Robert Laird Borden: I think the explanation is apparent on the face.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think this
is just part of the general plan for erecting monuments to the heroes of 1812.


Mr. PLUS LEY:: It is a very small
amount to vote for a monument, if there should be a monument at all. This item is very different from the amount of money that has been spent on erecting monuments all over the country to commemorate

Gnamplain. If a monument is to be erected to the heroes of 1812, I consider one thousand dollars a small amount.


Robert Laird Borden: Smaller grants have been made in different parts of the country. One grant was made for a memorial on Chrysler's Farm; I saw it myself.
Marine and Fisheries-Ocean and River Service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and ice-breakers, $1,125,000,


Edmond Proulx: How many dredges are working in the river St. Lawrence?


Mr. HAZEN:: This vote is to make provision for the maintenance and operation of the Ship Channel Dredging Fleet, as well as general additions to the machinery and plant. In answer to my hon. friend, I may say that we have eight elevator dredges with tugs, at $45,000 each, or $360,000 altogether; two new self-propelling steel -elevator dredges with tugs; one hydraulic dredge with two tugs; two suction hopper dredges; two self-propelling hopper barges; two dipper dredges with tugs; three inspection and sweeping tugs; three stone lifters and floating shop, and one rock cutter.


Wilfrid Laurier: Does this include the whole channel, above arid below Quebec ?


John Douglas Hazen: From Montreal to the sea.


Wilfrid Laurier: There was an accident last year near Father Point. Was it due to the state of the river or to some fault on the part of the ship?


John Douglas Hazen: The state of the river had absolutely nothing to do with the accident.


William Manley German: Did the minister ever consider whether it would not be cheaper to have this work done by contract? I have always considered, and think now, that it would be far cheaper for the Government to have this work done by contract, providing the tenders were properly called for and properly let, and the contractors held up to their contracts, as they should be. I feel sure that would be a cheaper method than having the work done by the Government, because it is a well-known fact that the Government dredges do not do in a day more than (half the work that is done by contractors under their terms of contract.


John Douglas Hazen: That has not been our experience so far as the work on the ship channel is concerned. The work is being done under the same system as when I

became minister. The work is in charge of Superintendent V. W. Forneret, C.E.
I can give my hon. friend some figures as to the cost. The work is carried on by these dredges owned by the Government and supplies in the way of food, etc., are furnished by contracts entered into with different people. The repair work is done at the ship yard at Sorel. The figures as to cost with reference to the different dredges Which I shall mention, include repairs and everything else, with the exception of the charge for interest on capital outlay. First, taking the dredge Labelle, we find that the cost of removing stone and gravel was $1.21 a yard; dredge Laurier, working in clay, shale rock and hard pan, 26 cents; dredge Lady Minto, clay, 19 cents; Baldwin, 19 cents; Israel Tarte, shale rock, 32 -cents, and Galveston, 8 cents. The average cost of removing material in the way we are doing is considerably less than if the work were done by tender and contract as suggested by my hon. friend.


William Pugsley: Does the department
keep -any account of the extra -cost based upon interest and depreciation of plant ? Is there no estimate made of that ?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think that we have any statement made up to date, but it is an easy thing to get at. We know what the plant has cost and, allowing interest on the cost, we h-ave found it considerably less than if we were to ask for tenders. Apart from that there is the -advantage of having, the work done under one uniform system and with one -superintendent having control of -the whole work. The work is very important and very good results lare being obtained from it. I am disposed to think that it is a better system than if we asked for tenders for different parts of the work.


Wilfrid Laurier: Can my hon. friend give us any information as to the actual condition of the channel between Montreal and Quebec ? What is the average depth and width ?


John Douglas Hazen: The work between Montreal and Quebec is progressing very satisfactorily. I-n all places there is a depth of 30 feet, and work is now going on to extend the depth to 35 feet. The -channel is being widened and straightened by degrees. The aim is to widen it to 500 feet. We started at 200 feet, it has been widened to 300 feet, and we propose to extend it to a uniform width of 500 feet with a uniform depth of 35 feet, and to make the channel
straighter. This is necessary on 'account of the larger ships that are now coming up to Montreal. The work is proceeding satisfactorily. In some places the channel is down to a depth of 30 feet, although it will take some time before the work is entirely completed. There was an inquiry made in reg-ard t-o the lowering
5 p.m. of the water in consequence of this deepening of the channel, and a commission was appointed a year or two ago composed of Dr. Haskell, dean of the engineering faculty of Cornell university, Mr. Stewart, superintendent of the ship -channel, and Mr. Stewart, chief of the hydrographic survey. These gentlemen have made their report, which report was laid on the table of the House a day or two ago. There was an apprehension that it would be necessary to put in reclamation works that would cost 'an enormous sum of money, but that has been dissipated entirely by the report. The report says that there has been a lowering in the harbour of Montreal of 2 feet 7 inches, that about two -or three inches is due to the diversion of water through the Chicago drainage canal from lake Michigan and that the balance is due to the work on the St. Lawrence channel and particularly due to the removal of obstructions at St-. Mary's rapids a little below Montreal. The effect of the removal of the obstructions has; been to allow the water to run out with more-freedom and cause a lowering of something over two feet in the water in the harbour of Montreal. Below that point the lowering has not been nearly so great. The report, shows how, in carrying on the ordinary-work for the improvement of the channel each year, dams can be constructed at a point below Montreal, where the river runs into lake St. Peter, by placing there the spoil that is taken from the river. In this way the level of the water can be raised and it is estimated that the total cost of this work will not exceed $400,000. Perhaps it will be a little over $400,000. The work can be done as the ordinary work of deepening the channel proceeds. I think the report is calculated to remove apprehensions from the minds of those who thought that the work going on in the St. Lawrence river was going to do a great deal of injury in the way of making very low water in the harbour of Montreal and above that point. The work is proceeding under the same system from year to year.
We had hoped to have the entire northern channel below the city of Quebec, which will be a much safer channel for navigation

after it is improved than the one on the south side of the river, finished by April. Last year we entered into a contract with the Canadian Vickers Limited of Montreal for the construction of a most modern dredge that would have facilitated that work. The work on the construction of the dredge was commenced, but unfortunately for reasons connected with the war, the work has had to be put to one side for the preseent. The delivery of the dredge will be delayed for probably a year, but that is something that is not under the control of the department.


Wilfrid Laurier: Have you commenced the work of dredging the northern channel?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we are working on it now and we have made considerable progress but with the dredges we have my recollection is that it will take perhaps six or seven years to complete the work. With this modern dredge about which I have spoken we could have had the work completed in less than half that time.


Wilfrid Laurier: In regard to the channel between Montreal and Quebec, I understand that the report of the commission to which my hon. friend has referred suggests that the refuse which is taken from the river should be placed between the islands at the entrance to lake St. Peter?
Mr*. HAZEN: That is it.


Wilfrid Laurier: Would that have any effect upon the flooding of that part of the country which is very low?


John Douglas Hazen: When the work is finished it will have no effect on the flooding.


William Manley German: If you put a dam in the river to raise the level of the water at Montreal, you will have to build a dyke.


John Douglas Hazen: There is no need for a
dyke.


William Pugsley: They are what are called wing dams.


John Douglas Hazen: Something of that sort.


William Manley German: The minister should
ascertain from his engineers just what work is necessary to deepen the river between Montreal and Quebec, and then advertise for tenders and let the work by contract. In tnat way he would get the work done more expeditiously and more satisfactorily. The work has been dragging on for twelve or fifteen years-I do not know that this

Government is any more to blame than the former Government-and it ought to have been finished long ago. This is an important work to the shipping interests and the Government have a lot of dredges of their own, working eight hours a day ostensibly, but really not working more than six and not -working very rapidly even at that, so that you are getting practically nothing done. This work will drag out till doomsday.


John Douglas Hazen: It is not fair to say we
are getting nothing done. Until compar-ratively few years ago the channel between Montreal and Quebec was only fourteen feet deep. Finally we got an average of thirty feet, and it is now found that thirty feet is not sufficient for the large steamers plying to Montreal. The channel has to be deepened to thirty-five feet and it has also been found necessary to widen and straighten it so as to make navigation safer. I believe the work is proceeding as satisfactorily as possible. It may be that even when we get the channel thirty-five feet deep and 500 feet wide, in the future it will require further deepening and widening to accommodate larger steamers. So far as I am capable of judging, I think the work has been carried on well, and there is a uniformity about it which would not be possible if we were to award it to different contractors year after year. We have a competent man at the head, in Mr. Forneret, who understands the conditions and is there year after year. I believe we get a more satisfactory return for the money we spend than we could in any other way.


Mr. LAW:: My experience is that the
Government dredges we have had in the harbour of Yarmouth have not done the work as satisfactorily or as expeditiously as the work could be done under tender and contract. The Government dredges do not work the number of hours that the private dredges do, and they do not seem to do the work so well. I must say that because I have had some experience. Taking it altogether, I believe that the Government could let the work by contract and save money.


Mr. COPP:: Do you find that this channel fills up and that the work has to be done year after year?


John Douglas Hazen: No. Every year when navigation opens we sweep the channel, because it was found once or twice that boulders

lodged in the channel during the winter. We have no trouble from the ordinary filling in with silt.


Bowman Brown Law: What does this dredging cost per cubic yard?


John Douglas Hazen: I have the returns here dredge by dredge, and it costs from five cents per cubic yard up to seventy cents per cubic yard. It depends upon the nature of the material. In places where there is a heavy rise and fall of tide, or where dredges cannot work steadily because of rough weather, the cost would be greater than in the St. Lawrence, where there is not that difficulty to contend with. Then there are certain modern dredges that will do more work in the same time than dredges of an earlier date. The average cost for 1914 was 14-75 cents per cubic yard, but that does not include a charge for interest on the cost of the machinery.


Bowman Brown Law: Neither uepreeiation nor interest?


John Douglas Hazen: No, but it includes the cost of all repairs. The dredges are kept in the very best state of repair.


Bowman Brown Law: These figures would hardly be a fair criterion to show the cost of the dredging to the country.


John Douglas Hazen: Every winter these dredges axe overhauled at Sorel and put in the best possible condition, and the cost of these repairs is included in the average I have given.


Bowman Brown Law: Some of these dredges must cost quite a lot of money, and to get a fair estimate of what the ultimate cost of the dredging is, the interest should be charged.
Mr. RAZ.EN: That is quite true.
Marine and Fisheries-to provide for construction and completion of dredging plant for river St. Lawrence from Montreal to Father Point, $871,000.


John Douglas Hazen: There is a portion of this
that we shall not be called upon to pay this year, because the woi-k will not be completed upon the self-propelling elevator dredge which was to have been delivered to us by the close of this season. I do not believe we shall get delivery of it until the close of 1916.


William Pugsley: How much has been expended?


John Douglas Hazen: The amount put in for the dredge is $500,000, of which I do not believe that more than 50 per cent will bo expended.


William Pugsley: About $250,000 will not be required. Why not reduce the item by that amount?


John Douglas Hazen: The war may end very
suddenly, and there is always a chance that more progress may be made than we expect at the present time. This is the amount that was voted by Parliament last year for the work. We thought it advisable to leave it in for that reason.


William Pugsley: The Minister of Finance has made items like this an excuse for the extra taxes. I believe there are millions of dollars just like this $250,000 which will not be required. My hon. friend will see how much better it would be if this item -were left out. I do not single this out especially, but it is on a par with many other items.


William Manley German: The whole amount might very well be omitted.


John Douglas Hazen: The whole amount cannot be omitted. We expended in 1913-14, $695,613.


William Manley German: Has the dredge been started yet?


John Douglas Hazen: It is under way.


William Pugsley: Is the work suspended now?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, for reasons which I cannot explain. The House will understand.
New ice-breaker for river St. Lawrence, $500,000.


William Pugsley: is that a revote?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. A great deal of progress has been made on this vessel. But for the war it would have been delivered to us at the opening of the season. It is expected by the people in charge of the work that the vessel will be ready for us, if not at the close of this season, then by the opening of next season. The vessel is being built by Canadian Vickers, Ltd., of Alontreal, that firm being the lowest tenderer.


Air.   AIACDONALD@: Has the Earl Grey been formally disposed of to the Russian Government?


John Douglas Hazen: 
Air.   AIACDONALD@: Has the minister arranged to get a new ice-breaker in place of the Earl Grey?



John Douglas Hazen: We are getting this new icebreaker built, which will be of much greater power, and which will be an icebreaker alone. It will not be used for any other purpose. It was found by the department to have an ice-breaker that does icebreaking at certain seasons and other work during other portions of the year, is not good business, as the vessel will consume a tremendous amount of coal to have the necessary power. With the putting on of the car ferry across the Northumberland strait from Cape Tormentine on the mainland to Cape Traverse on the island, and the railway travel going by that means, there would not be much use for the Ear] Grey on the route on which it was in the past. We think we shall not require to order another ice-breaker, with the two others that we have on the island route during the winter, and that we shall be able to get on tery well until this new icebreaker is completed.
lighthouse and coast service-agencies, rents and contingencies, $150,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the increase of $15,000?


John Douglas Hazen: It is due to the annual increases in the salaries of agents and clerks in the various agencies, authorized by the schedule established in April, 1911. While those clerks are not in the inside service, there was adopted a schedule of salaries for the different positions, so that they could get certain annual increases just as do the clerks in the inside service. There were additions to the staffs of some of the agencies owing to increased work and extended premises. This is a summary of the proposed expenditure: Nova Scotia, including subagencies at Sydney and Pictou, $30,800; New Brunswick, $13,150; Prince Edward. Island, $8,850; Quebec, $36,450; Montreal, $13,300; Ontario, $3,200; Parry Sound, $5,100; Kenora subagency, $700; Fort William, $1,800; Victoria, including Prince Rupert, $22,800; contingencies, etc., $13,850; total, $150,000. The Fort William agency is a new one. We used to make arrangements in different ways for the work there, but that plan cost practically as much and was not as satisfactory as having an agency of our own. Therefore, we established an agency there. We have also had some additions in connection with the agency at Prince Rupert in consequence of the development of that portion of the Pacific coast.


William Manley German: Has the minister decided finally and unalterably to construct the new

signal service at Point Abine, about which he has had a considerable amount of correspondence, so as to wind up that little ball of yarn at once?


John Douglas Hazen: I have had considerable
communication with different gentlemen on this subject. Steamers coming from Buffalo pass by that point, and the Government of the United States asked us to construct a fog alarm there, which we agreed to do. Opposition to its construction was offered by a number of summer residents in the locality, who had the impression that they would be disturbed by the sound of the fog alarm. During the season when the summer residents are there, however, there is very little fog on the lakes, and they would suffer very little inconvenience in that respect. Having lived in St. John much of my life, I have become rather fond of the sound of the fog horn. I think that the inconvenience which the summer residents anticipate is more fancied than real, and that after the fog alarm is in operation a month or two they will not notice it at all. Their interests ought to be considered, however, and we are trying to make arrangements with the United States Government whereby this fog alarm will be used only in cases of necessity during the summer months.


William Manley German: Subject to that arrangement, the fog alarm will be established?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, the work will be proceeded with.


William John Macdonald: Is the agency at
Pictou a subagency of Halifax, or of Charlottetown?


John Douglas Hazen: Halifax.
Salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $450,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does this amount cover the allowances made to lightkeepers all over Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. This vote is for the
purpose of providing salaries for superintendents of lights, lightkeepers and crews of lightships. For the fiscal year 1912-13 the expenditure was $415,294.47; for 1913-14, $420,616.13. We are asking for the same appropriation for this year.


Mr. BOULAY (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I would like to inquire from the hon. the Minister of Marine why the lighthouse keeper at Pointe au Prere is not put on the

same footing as the other keepers stationed along the coast.
Since we have been in power, that is since September, 1911, the lighthouse keeper at Pointe au Prere is without telegraphic means of communication at his station, while at every other station along the St. Lawrence lighthouse keepers have remained m possession and retain the use of telegraph facilities.
On a previous occasion' I drew the attention of the hon. gentleman to that fact. 1 do not know whether he did not catch my meaning or else was adverse to granting my request, but at all events I am from year to year in receipt of complaints from that keeper, stating that he is debarred from the use of telegraphic facilities, and I realize that he has good reason to complain. Whenever he wishes to know whether there are vessels coming up or down the St. Lawrence he is under the necessity of walking a distance of four or five arpents to reach the place where the telegraph office is now located.
It. seems to me his station should not be on a different footing from that of other lighthouses, unless the intention is to discriminate, and I for one am inclined to consider it in that light, since all other lighthouse keepers have the use of telegraphic facilities.
At Matane, in the constituency I represent, there is a telegraph station in the village. I do not see why at Pointe au Prere, which is a much more important station than Matane and many others, the keeper should not have the benefit of telegraph facilities. Under present arrangements, he is left completely in the dark as regards the movements of vessels up and down the St. Lawrence. To secure information in that respect he must go over a distance of four or five arpents, and apply to a man who is not always of a disposition to facilitate matters for him. I say that such a state of things is intolerable and should not be allowed to exist whether in Rimouski or any other constituency.


John Douglas Hazen: 
Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend sees now the mistake he made in depriving the country of the services of Mr. McWilliams. He should have been retained in the service.


Herménégilde Boulay: Does the Government pay any amount for the use of the telegraph ?


John Douglas Hazen: We are paying nothing to Mr. McWilliams in connection with the telegraph service, but I think he is the signal officer there. It is most desirable and in the public interest that the signal service officer should be the man who is the telegraph operator at the place in question.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would suggest that everybody would be pleased, the hon. member for Rimouski included, if Mr. McWilliams was re-instated in the office from which he was dismissed.


Herménégilde Boulay: My hon. friend should not be too hard upon the Minister of Fisheries for keeping friends of hon. gentlemen opposite in positions. Hon. gentlemen opposite should not. criticise him for that; he has always shown consideration for their friends.


Wilfrid Laurier: Exactly, and the man who is dismissed from the service suffers accordingly.
Maintenance and repairs to lighthouses, $750,000.
Mr.'A. K. MACLEAN: Is that the amount usually expended in o-ne year ?


John Douglas Hazen: Last year we expended of this amount $699,785. LTp to the 31st of December last, for the present fiscal year, we expended $566,444. Up to the end of February we spent $645,361.22. This money is used to maintain aids to navigation, for supplies, fuel, illuminants, cleaning materials, delivering supplies and repairs to aids to navigation. A considerable number of lighthouses have been established during the present fiscal year and doubtless there will be further additions during this year. The humane establishments at Sable island and St. Paul's island will be paid out of this vote. Formerly this was paid out of the life-saving vote.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the
amount of repair expenditures, roughly?


John Douglas Hazen: By provinces; in Nova Scotia, $166,000; in Prince Edward Island, $22,000; in New Brunswick, $96,000; in Quebec, $183,000; in Montreal, $24,000; in Ontario, $97,000; in British Columbia, $83,000; and on general account, $25,898.


William John Macdonald: Did the minister receive any request to establish telephone communication between Pictou island in Northumberland strait and the mainland?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, my recollection is that we received a communication asking us, in connection with the life-saving station there, to establish either a telephone or telegraph line to the mainland. We are making inquiries as to the cost and necessity of that work. That would come under the life-saving stations vote.


William John Macdonald: I do not know whether the cable already laid between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island could be utilized in connection with the work I have suggested. It passes in the immediate vicinity of Pictou island and on account of its having been laid the people on the island felt that it might be used to afford them some communication with the mainland. I hope the minister will be able to give favourable consideration to the suggestion. Many islands on the coast have telegraphic communication with the mainland through tire Department of Public Works. There is a telegraph cable from Cape Tormentine to Traverse and a telephone cable was laid by the steamers of the Department of Public Works last year from Caribou on the mainland, passing in the immediate vicinity of Pictou island.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know whether it is feasible to have a branch cable connecting with this one across the straits. The cable was not laid by the Marine Department; I understand it was laid by the Nova Scotia Telephone Company and some of the Government steamers rendered assistance in laying it. Possibly we could make arrangements with the Nova Scotia Telephone Company to connect a cable from Pictou island with this one, but our justification for doing so would be that it would be of advantage to the life-saving station. That would be the only ground on which we could do it.


William John Macdonald: It would be justifiable on that ground because the life-saving station is about 9 mile' from any port
TMr. Hazen.l
where the assistance of a steamer could be secured. Such a connection as has been suggested would enable people living on the island to communicate with the mainland in any case of urgency.
Construction of lighthouses and aids to navigation, including apparatus, submarine signals, and providing suitable boats for carrying on construction work, $750,000.


Mr. KYTE:: Will the minister indicate what new lighthouses he proposes to build in Nova Scotia during the present year?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot indicate the amount we are going to spend on lighthouses in Nova Scotia. My hon. friend knows the system that prevails, that as applications are made they are submitted to the consideration of the Lighthouse Board who pronounce upon	their necessity. The
Lighthouse Board meets from time to time	and	receives applications.
The principal works to he carried out next season are as follows: Establishment of a new depot at Dartmouth, 845,000. We were conducting the naval depot at Halifax on the property that belonged to the Imperial Government, but we have practically been driven out of there since t'he war started; so we have removed the depot to Dartmouth, to the property purchased by the late Government six or seven years ago.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Troop
property?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was that sold?


John Douglas Hazen: We purchased the whole property from Mr. Troop. That portion with the dwelling-house on it has been sold, and we have been using the other portion with the buildings on it; and to properly equip these will take $45,000. Then certain protection work has to be done at Flat Point, at the mouth of Sydney Harbour. A new light is required at Negro Island, and a new tower at Peggy Point.


George William Kyte: Where is Peggy Point?


John Douglas Hazen: Somewhere to the west of Halifax.


Bowman Brown Law: Is there not already a light at Negro Island?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but the Lighthouse Board recommends that a new light be put up there. A new light is required for Caribou Island; range lights for Sheet Harbour; a fog alarm for Digby Gut; new apparatus for Cheticamp and Cape St.

Mary; rebuilding burned lighthouse at St. Paul Island; and a new light and fog-alarm apparatus at Scutari. That is as much as I can tell my hon. friend about the work to be done in Nova Scotia.


George William Kyte: All these works have been recommended by the Lighthouse Board?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


George William Kyte: Does the minister propose to have this work done by tender and contract?


John Douglas Hazen: In nearly all cases our
work is done by tender and contract. But in some cases where the tenders are very high, the Chief Engineer recommends that the Government do the work by day labour, under an inspector appointed by the Engineering Branch of the Marine Department With that exception, contracts are let whenever the amount is over a few thousand dollars.


George William Kyte: It is not customary to advertise for tenders in the newspapers. I think the practice is to send notices out in different post offices and to well-known contractors?


John Douglas Hazen: That is the case with the
smaller jobs; the larger ones are advertised generally.


George William Kyte: I think that was the practice followed by the late Government. Do the officials of the department send notices of these tenders to the men whose names were on file in the department as light-house builders, before the change of Government?


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy says we have
no such list. In the case of the. smaller light-houses the notices are put up in the post offices. In the case of larger works, they are generally advertised in the district where they are to be erected.


George William Kyte: I had the impression that
the department sent out notices of these tenders to men who were known to the department as responsible contractors.


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy says he thinks not. He says that shortly after the notices are published in the post offices we receive inquiries for specifications from people who are always on the look-out for that kind of work.


George William Kyte: The reason I bring the matter up is because from day to day I am requested by contractors in my own county
to see that their manes are filed with the Department of Marine hnd Fisheries, as persons who would be likely to tender for such contracts; but if that is not the practice nothing would be gained by forwarding the names to the department.


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy tells me there is no such list in the department.


William Pugsley: I presume that the
depot at St. John will be paid for out of this vote.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Pugsley: How is work on the St. John wharf progressing? I have seen it stated, I am not sure whether it was in the newspapers, but certainly in communications that I have received, that some trouble had arisen by reason of the settlement of the concrete.


John Douglas Hazen: My attention was called to the newspaper paragraph to which my hon. friend alludes. I at once saw the chief engineer of the department, and the assistant engineer, Mr. Fraser. Mr. Fraser has had a great deal to do with the construction of this wharf, and he had just returned from St. John. He told me that there was nothing at all serious the matter, or which would add in any appreciable way to the expense. He said that the wharf when completed would be capital in every respect. There has been some little settlement, I understand, at one part of the wharf, but Mr. Fraser says it can be remedied without any trouble. Both he and Colonel Anderson assured me that I need have no apprehensions as to its safety or security.


William Pugsley: What was the contract price?


John Douglas Hazen: 


William Pugsley: What did the site cost?


John Douglas Hazen: Somewhere about $60,000.


Bowman Brown Law: What is to be erected at Digby Gut?


John Douglas Hazen: A fog alarm.


Bowman Brown Law: A new one?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Bowman Brown Law: In addition to the one that is there now?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, inside.


Bowman Brown Law: How much will it cost?


John Douglas Hazen: 


Bowman Brown Law: Is it necessary to have two fog alarms there?


John Douglas Hazen: The application came from the steamboat people who are running boats across the bay, and the Lighthouse Board recommended it.


Bowman Brown Law: I do not see the necessity for another fog alarm there.


John Douglas Hazen: They say that inside the
Gut you cannot hear the fog alarm at all.


Bowman Brown Law: When you are inside, you don't need to hear it. I have crossed the bay a great many times and have always been able to hear the fog alarm from quite a distance.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the minister propose to locate the depot at Dartmouth permanently, or to use Halifax later?


John Douglas Hazen: It is very difficult to get a convenient site along the water-front in Halifax at a reasonable price. Our idea is that we should use the site purcljased by the previous Government, I think, with the idea of a marine depot in view. There was a little difficulty at Halifax, on account of the men crossing and recrossing the water, but we can overcome that by a boat. We think on the whole it would be better at Dartmouth.


George William Kyte: What proceeding is followed after an application has been received for the construction of a lighthouse?


John Douglas Hazen: The Lighthouse Board consists of the deputy minister, the chief engineer of the Marine and Fisheries Department, the inspector of lights of the Marine and Fisheries Department, the chairman of the Dominion Marine Association, and the chairman or some man appointed by the Shipping Federation of Canada.
In many cases these gentlemen are familiar with the localities where these aids to navigation are or should be placed. The chief engineer of the department, who has been there for over forty yeaTS, is familiar with every lighthouse in Canada. I believe that he could sit down, and, starting at a point on the coast, point to the place where each lighthouse is located. Mr. McPhail is also familiar with this matter. For many years Mr. Andrew Allan has been a member of the board as the representative of the Shipping Federation of Canada. These gentlemen have a good deal of knowledge within themselves. If they have not the knowledge within themselves they may get it by an examination of the chart, or they
LMr. Hasten.]
may get it from the reports of the inspector of lights, or from the agents of the Marine Department, while in some eases they utilize officials in obtaining information in regard to lights.


William John Macdonald: Who succeeded Mr. Allan on the board ?


John Douglas Hazen: He is still on the board.


Bowman Brown Law: Since the appropriation was voted the other night for schools of navigation, I have received a letter from the teacher of the school of navigation at Yarmouth, in which he says that the opening of the free schools at Halifax and St. John has taken away about all his pupils. The school at Yarmouth is one of the oldest schools of navigation in Nova Scotia. It has turned out as many masters and mates as 'any other school in the maritime provinces. It would be quite a hardship if Yarmouth were deprived of this school altogether, as it serves the community from Lunenburg to Annapolis. The pupils are so few that it will be necessary to close the school altogether. On behalf of the western part of the province I would like to ask the minister to take the matter into his serious consideration and not allow this old, representative school to be displaced by these schools in Halifax and St. John. I am convinced that this teacher, who has done such good work, would be prepared to perhaps take a little less salary than the salaries paid at the schools in Halifax and St. John. I would ask the minister to take it into his consideration and see whether it would be possible to have the school at Yarmouth retained.


John Douglas Hazen: I think there is a great deal in what my hon. friend says. I would be very sorry indeed to see Yarmouth left without a school of navigation. It is an important point from the marine standpoint. Up to -a few years ago students at St. John and Halifax who wanted to get the necessary education in navigation had to go to Yarmouth. The opening of these schools at St. John and Halifax has perhaps drawn them away to some extent from the Yarmouth school. I will give this matter my very sympaihic consideration.


Herménégilde Boulay: I would like to ask the minister if he is aware that some boats struck rocks last season about two miles from the shore of the St. Lawrence opposite S;te. Felicite.


John Douglas Hazen: AVhat are the names of the ships ?	.


Herménégilde Boulay: I do not remember the names. One had to unload her cargo before she could get out, and she was badly damaged. The other one only touched something, but nobody could say what it was. I would like to know if these facts have come to the knowledge of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not recollect -any such circumstances at the present time, but I will endeavour to get the information for my ho-n. friend. I will ask the deputy to make a note of it.
At six o'clock, the House took recess-.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Bill No. 44, respecting certain patents of the Lohmann Company

Mr. Fripp-in Committee.
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Has the minister looked into this Bill?


Mr. J. D. REID :: Yes, I was present when the Bill was discussed in the committee. This patent has been kept alive and the fees have been paid in full, but where they were in default was that the patentee died shortly before the time had elapsed for them to come under the license system.


William John Macdonald: This is the ugual Bill to revive a patent. They have not complied with the terms of the patent and they come here to ask special legislation to get a license to do certain things, and that without- manufacturing necessarily in Canada. Many times the question has been discussed in this House as to the wisdom of reviving these patents, and in every case, unless some Special cause has been shown, I have dissented to such legislation. What are the special circumstances here?


John Dowsley Reid: I have always taken
the position that where a patent has been allowed to expire, because the fees have not been paid, the patent should not be revived, and that course has been followed in several cases this session. In the present case the fees have been paid. Under the Patent Act, they can within six months after the patent has been issued, get a
license on making application, but in this case the patentee died a month or two before the expiry of that period, and this legislation is simply to put them in a position to apply for a license according to the Act.


William John Macdonald: What is the nature of this patent?


John Dowsley Reid: The Bill is in charge of Air. Fripp, and, as he is not present, if the hon. gentleman wishes, it can stand.


William John Macdonald: My attitude in regard to such legislation as this always has been to oppose giving the patentee rights, after the expiry of the time provided for in the patent, unless perchance the article is manufactured in Canada. If the article were manufactured in Canada, I would he disposed to give the patentee any privileges that were possible; but, as that is not the case, there ought to be the fullest explanation in each case, and the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Fripp) ought to give us that explanation.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree with the hon. member. I am just as strongly opposed to the granting of these renewals as he is. I went into thi-s case very fully with the deputy, minister, -before I consented in the committee to support the renewal of this patent. I would prefer that a much fuller explanation be given to the committee, and therefore I am willing that the Bill should stand.


William John Macdonald: Last year I impressed on the Minister of Agriculture the desirability of having some amendments made to the Act, if it were desirable to have these privileges granted. If not, we ought to adhere to the Act, except in the most exceptional cases and only where it is m the interest of the country and not in the interest of the patentee that it should be done.


John Dowsley Reid: I drew the attention of the committee to the fact that applications for the renewal of patents had been increasing in number for many years. The committee unanimously came to the conclusion that we should very carefully investigate each care. It will be apparent from the results accomplished this session that the committee have done good work.
Progress reported.
Bill No. 55, to incorporate Vancouver Terminal Railway Company, and recom-

mending that the title be changed to an Act to incorporate Fraser Valley Terminal Railway Company-Mr. Stevens-in committee.
On section 1-name:


Mr. MACDONELL:: I would suggest that the Bill stand over until Monday, because the promoter is not here.


Mr. TAYLOR:: I do not think this Bill should stand over until Monday. It is a matter of great importance to the promoters to have this Bill pass through the Senate. I am prepared to give the committee any information desired with respect to it. It has been thoroughly thrashed out before the Railway Committee.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I was in the Railway Committee on the first occasion on which this Bill came up. It was fully discussed for an hour or an hour and a half, and by a substantial majority the committee killed the Bill. Later a motion was made in the House to refer the Bill back to the Railway Committee. I did not oppose that motion although I had very strong opinions adverse to the principles of the Bill. The motion was passed, and the Bill went back to the committee. On the same day and at the same hour at which the Railway Committee was sitting, I was engaged on another committee, and I had no opportunity of being in the Railway Committee when this Bill was under discussion; but I understand that many amendments were made of a far-reaching and substantial nature. Since then the Bill has not been reprinted, and it has been amended out of all recognition as compared with its original condition. I am glad of that, because the original Bill, in my opinion, was a highly improper one. As the committee should be properly informed as to the nature of the amendments, and as it cannot be properly informed unless the Bill is printed as amended, and as the hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) in whose name the Bill stands is not here, I think the Bill should stand. Monday is a day which, if necessary, can be devoted entirely to private Bills, and there is plenty of time for the Bill to be considered in committee then. I am not taking the ground of opposing this Bill; but there were some very obnoxious clauses in it, and I had sound objections to the principles of certain of its clauses. I would like a proper opportunity to consider the amendments. I am not desirous of blocking the progress of the

Bill. There is ample time for it to go through.


Mr. CARROLL:: The preamble of the Bill was killed the first time the Bill came up for discussion in the Railway Committee, owing to the stand taken by the hon. member in whose name the Bill stood. The Bill was referred back to the Railway Committee. That committee took it up the other day, and struck out the clause that was obnoxious to the hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens.) That meant that this terminal company would not have any of the rights which it had in the original Bill, all reference to Vancouver having been cut out. In addition to that, the only other amendment moved by the hon. member for Vancouver was adopted by the committee, with the exception of one word which the hon. Minister of Railways agreed should be cut out also. The only reason why I should like this Bill to go through is that it has been thoroughly discussed for two days in the committee. After the amendments made by the hon. member for Vancouver had been accepted, the committee passed the Bill practically unanimously. I do not see any good reason why the Bill should stand over, because the session is getting very short and it has to go to the Senate, and the promoters are anxious to have the Bill go through. If the hon. member for Vancouver was foiled in any amendment that he wished to make before the committee, there would be some reason for having the Bill stand over. The amendments to the Bill are not very far reaching; some of the sections having been cut out, and the objectionable features of the last section of the Bill having been corrected by the committee to meet the wishes of the hon. member for Vancouver.


William John Macdonald: Perhaps the hon. member for Westminster (Mr. Taylor) will explain the Bill.


George Taylor: This Bill gives authority to a company, owning a large area of property on Lulu island, in the constituency that I represent, to make connection with the several railways, namely, the Canadian Pacific, the Canadian Northern and the Northern Pacific principally, running into the Fraser valley. The essence of the Bill is the section giving permission to the company to run lines from its terminal at the extremity of Lulu island to all these railways. In committee, after the Bill was referred back, all reference to Vancouver city was struck out, because Vancouver had

126t
represented to the committee that the Bill as presented interfered with a certain agreement between that city and the Canadian Northern and Canadian Pacific railways. That being the case, no other objection on the part of the city of Vancouver or of any other interest remained. It is vital to the interest of an important part of my constituency that the promoters of this enter-prize be given the opportunity they desire to develop the dock and harbour works which they have in contemplation and which this Bill will enable them to connect with the railways. As to the alterations made in committee, nothing new was inserted in the Bill except a section at the end safeguarding the contract of the city of Vancouver, and a couple of standard clauses which were inserted at the instance of the chairman of the committee. The amendments made in committee consisted mainly of striking out what seemed to be unnecesarily liberal provisions. I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) that it is essential to the safety of this Bill that it should not be delayed at this late stage of the session, and I would suggest to the hon. member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Macdonell) that his purpose would be served if he would discuss any objections as the different sections are reached in this committee.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I am not opposing this Bill, nor am I concerned in it except from the standpoint of the public interest. The amendments are difficult to understand; they appear to change the whole character and nature of the Bill. I am quite willing that the Bill should be proceeded with, if that is the desire of the committee, and if proper explanations can be given with regard to the proposed amendments.


George Taylor: I think the hon. member is mistaken as to the nature of the amendments. I will send him a copy of the Bill which, I think, will reassure him.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-powers, etc.:
Angus Claude Macdonell: The operations of the company are now confined to the municipalities of Richmond and New Westminster.


George Taylor: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section II-special powers:
Angus Claude Macdonell: Sections 9, 10 and 11. as they appeared in the original Bill, have been struck out, I understand.


The CHAIRMAN:: Yes, these are new sections.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Bill No. 51, respecting the Kettle Valley Railway Company, and to ratify and confirm an agreement with the Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company.-Mr. Green.
Considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 72, for the relief of William Ewart New.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 74, for the relief of Helene Suzette Baxter Douglas.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Marine-Signal Service, $60,000.
['If the hon. gentleman will hand that letter to me I will have the case investigated.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Hazen the House adjourned at 11.25 p. m.\nMonday, March 22, 1915.']
John Douglas Hazen: This service collects and distributes information of the movements of vessels on the Great Lakes, in the river and gulf of St. Lawrence and on the Atlantic coast of Canada. ' It also reports ice and weather conditions. The service is also extensively used by the lighthouse and buoy service of the river St. Lawrence ship channel in connection with dredging. The expenditure for the fiscal year 1913-14 was $46,296 and the expenditure up to the 31st of December, 1914, during this fiscal year, was $39,271, so that the expenditure this year will apparently be about the same as last year. The stations are equipped to receive the reports by flag signals.


William Pugsley: Where is the signal office at St. John?


John Douglas Hazen: In the custom house There is also an official employed on Partridge island in connection with the Marconi station.


William Pugsley: I was wondering whether this included the wireless station.


John Douglas Hazen: The only thing it includes in connection with wireless is $200 paid to a man on Partridge island. The operator at St. John is Mr. H. P. Butler, with offices in

the customs, house. He has been in the service a considerable number of years. He has an asistant, Mr. C. A. Cromwell.


William Pugsley: What does the officer at Partridge island do?


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy tells me that
some arangement was made with the Marconi Company for one of their operators to do this work. That acounts for the $200.


William Pugsley: Who is he employed by, the Government or the Marconi Company?


Mr HAZEN:: The Marconi Company,
under arrangement with the Government.
' Mr. PUGSLEY:	I have been requested
from St. John to get some information as to the three other gentlemen who are em-employed on Partridge island.
i Mr. HAZEN:	I think you will have to
ask the Militia Department about that. I presume my hon. friend refers to three gentlemen who are acting as censors, Mr. Masters, Mr. Crockett, and Mr. Shaw. They are paid by the Militia Department.


William Pugsley: I have the best feeling in the world for these three gentlemen, more particularly Mr. Masters and Mr. Shaw, ' whom I am acquainted with, but there is a feeling of curiosity in St. John as to what the duties and salaries of these gentlemen are. Mr. Shaw is a lawyer and knows nothing about wireless telegraphy; no more does Mr. Masters.


John Douglas Hazen: These men are censors. All the telegrams passing through that station have to pass through their hands. If it would not be in the public interest to publish any of the despatches, I presume these gentlemen would submit the point to Major Hamilton here in Ottawa, who is the chief censor. All I know about these men is that I was asked by the Militia Department if I could recommend three suitable gentlemen, and I recommended the three men whose names I have mentioned, thinking they were suitable in every way.


William Pugsley: Nobody would go to
Partridge island to send a wireless message. Messages would he caught 'by the wireless instrument there and forwarded on, so I do not see how these gentlemen, unless they are familiar with the wireless system, can be of any advantage-unless the messages are translated by the operator and submitted to them for inspection.
[Mr. Hazen.J


John Douglas Hazen: I expect that is what happens.


William Pugsley: Does my hon. friend not know what they receive?


John Douglas Hazen: They receive a certain sum per day; I am not quite sure just what, but the Minister of Militia will explain the whole matter when his estimates are under consideration. My impression is that the chief censor there gets $8 a day, and the two assistants $7 a day.


William Pugsley: I have been told that they get $10 a day, and that each one rests about three days a week, but the pay goes, on just the same.


John Douglas Hazen: I think the chief censor gets $8, and the two assistants $7.


William Pugsley: If the services of these gentlemen are necessary, I have no objection at all to their employment. Indeed I shall be very glad to see them employed. But there is an impression, which I should be glad to know can be dispelled, that the services of these three gentlemen are not necessary. Personally, I do not know. Perhaps we can get the information from the Minister of Militia.


John Douglas Hazen: He will be here when his estimates are up.


William Pugsley: But he is so busy that one hates to bother him. I would sooner bother the Minister of Marine. This thing is in his own constituency, and I have no doubt he recommended these gentlemen.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, I was asked to recommend three.


William Pugsley: And imy hon. friend
gave no thought to the question whether they were really required or %not?


John Douglas Hazen: I supposed the Militia Department would not ask for them if their services were not required.


William Pugsley: I am glad my hon.
friend has such confidence in the Militia Department. It is said my hon, friend was acting Minister of Militia at one time; perhaps these men were appointed then.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


William Pugsley: They were appointed by the Minister of Militia?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Are all the censors in Canada under the direction of the Militia Department?


John Douglas Hazen: I tiiink so.


William John Macdonald: In regard to the signal office in Halifax; I think my hon. friend said that daily reports were published.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think there is a signal office in Halifax. Halifax gets its signal reports from St. John. I have the list of signal stations here, and Halifax is not included. I might read part of the list: Bersimis, North Sydney, N.S., Lurcher Lightship, Brier island, Pt. Lepreaux, Partridge island, St. John, N.B., Bay St. Lawrence, Money Point, C.B., Flat Point, N.S., Cape Ray, Newfoundland, Chatham, N.B., Pt. Escumiac, N.B., and so on.


William John Macdonald: What I had in mind was the daily publication of movements of vessels. I thought my hon. friend said that these were published by St. John, Quebec, and Halifax. -


John Douglas Hazen: No. Montreal, Quebec and St. John publish daily bulletins, and they are sent over from St. John to Halifax, I understand.


William John Macdonald: Are they published in Halifax?


John Douglas Hazen: They are immediately telephoned to all interested parties in Halifax.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I was not in when the minister was describing the signal service. What is it, just in a word?


John Douglas Hazen: It collects and distributes movements of vessels on the Great Lakes, on the Atlantic, and on the St. Lawrence, and gives the ice and weather conditions generally.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the publication consist of; is it posted in shipping offices?


John Douglas Hazen: They post up a bulletin.
Administration of pilotage and maintenance and repairs of steamer Eureka, $56,300.


William F. Carroll: I notice that this item includes repairs to the steamer Eureka, and I see that by Item 256, $100,000 is required to provide a vessel to replace the Eureka. Is the Eureka still in service?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes; she is used by the pilot service at Father Point. Both in the report of the Pilot Commission, which was laid on the table of the House last session and in the report of the Lord Mersey Commission appointed to inquire into the Empress 80
of Ireland disaster, it was recommended that a different system of picking up and dropping pilots, although the accident did not occur in consequence of the present system, be adopted. It was recommended that the pilots should board the ships at a different point from where they were dropped so as to avoid the danger of ships crossing one another when coming in towards the shore to pick up or drop the pilot. We have a boat at present there, the Eureka. It is an old boat but apart from that it has not the necessary accommodation and Parliament has made an appropriation for a new boat. We hope to be. able to purchase a boat that is suitable, but if we cannot ' purchase one then we will have to build one.


William F. Carroll: Are the pilotage commissioners at the ports of Sydney and North Sydney paid out of this fund?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


William F. Carroll: They maintain themselves?


John Douglas Hazen: They are paid out of the
fees they collect at the port of Sydney.


William F. Carroll: I do not mean the pilots; I mean the commissioners.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know whether
the pilot commissioners are paid anything at all, speaking simply from memory. At many ports the pilotage commissioners receive nothing for their services, but if they are paid they will be paid out of the fees collected at the ports.


William F. Carroll: The department appoint these commissioners?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William F. Carroll: I want to say a few
words about the conduct of the commissioners at the ports of Sydney and North Sydney. A couple of years ago they undertook to dismiss men who had grown up in that service. I am not blaming the minister at all; he does not pay them, although he appoints them. But in the interest of the department, and in the interest of the pilotage system, at these ports I would like to draw his attention to the fact that the pilotage commissioners are doing a grievous wrong. Old men who have grown up in the pilotage system, who have been earning their living in that way were dismissed and new men were appointed. The commissioners undertook to dismiss several of these men who had no other occupation and wlv.



were making a success of their work. Four men, including Mr. McGillivray at Low Point, were dismissed without any reason whatever. Under the by-laws of the commission they should have had an investigation in order to find some reason for dismissing these pilots. I am not finding fault with the gentlemen they put in their places. Mr. McGillivray took action against the pilotage commission for wrongful dismissal, the case was heard before one of the very best judges in Sydney and he decided that the commissioners were wrong in dismiss-tins man. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, Mr. McGillivray lost and it is now on appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. I would suggest to the minister that if the department does not pay these commissioners, they are under the jurisdiction of the department by reason of the fact that they receive their appointment from the department and it is therefore incumbent upon the minister to inquire into their conduct. I beg to inform him that in dismissing these men they were doing something which was not in accordance with the faithful performance of their duty. The men whom they dismissed have been practically since that time out of employment. One of them does not need employment because he has other business, but it is very unfair and very unwise to allow these commissioners to indulge in that sort of frivolity because 1 can think of no other word to characterize their action. If they had anything against these men, if there had been an investigation under the regulations and it was found that they were wanting in any respect, I could understand why they should be dismissed. If the minister cannot remedy the wrongs that have -been done there he should see that in future no such wrongs are committed again. To show that the pilotage commissioners knew that they were wrong I may state that The moment D p.m. Mr. McGillivray brought his action against them, and he had to bring action against the commissioners personally, they put him to work and he has been at work ever since.


John Douglas Hazen: Is the suit still going on?


William F. Carroll: The suit is still going on and it has been carried to the Supreme Court of Canada. I suppose that if the other three men had had sufficient money to start action that they would have had their jobs back by this time. I do not desire to criticise the minister, bi t I want to

bring this to his attention and the attention of his department.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Marine to a very similar case which has occurred in the town of Sackville. The chairman of the pilotage commission there was an old sea captain who had seen service for a long while, and there was a gentleman in that locality who desired to be appointed a pilot. I do not know whether there is an examination which applicants have to undergo for the position, hut at any rate the Board of Pilotage Commissioners would not appoint this man as a pilot. This was going on for two or three years; the minister may remember that there was some correspondence in regard to it. Recently the chairman of the board was dismissed because he would not appoint the man in question a. pilot. He claimed that he was absolutely unfit for the position. Another retired sea captain in that same port was offered the position of chairman of the commission but he refused to take it, because he would not pass this applicant as a pilot. (Since that time still another gentleman has been appointed chairman of the board who is not a seafaring man at all, although he is a very estimable man and I have nothing to say against him. I do not know whether this applicant has been appointed or not . There has been some correspondence within the last four or five months with regard to the subject. I do not know whether -this affair was conducted [DOT]as a matter of patronage or whether it was simply done by the Board of Pilot Commissioners. I shall have no hesitation in giving the minister the names of these gentlemen privately if he wants to look into it.


John Douglas Hazen: We always accept the recommendations of the commissioners before licensing the pilots. I have no recollection of the matter that the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Oopp) refers to. I am sorry we have not the file here to-night, but I will look into it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Captain - Anderson was the
chairman of the Pilotage Commissioners who refused to appoint this man as a pilot and who, in consequence, was dismissed. The position was offered to another gentleman, Captain Atkinson, who refused to accept it on the condition that he should appoint this man a pilot.


William F. Carroll: I feel like asking the minister to request the commission at Sydney to give their reasons to the department

for dismissing these men. They had no reasons, there was no investigation, and under these circumstances I think the men should get their positions back.


John Douglas Hazen: I will look into it.
Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $10,000.


William John Macdonald: What is that for?


John Douglas Hazen: That is for the maintenance of wharves that are under the control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. The hon. gentleman knows that when these wharves are built by the Department of Public Works they are handed over to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, who manage them and appoint a wharfinger who collects the tolls and so on. There is a provision that repairs not exceeding $50 shall be made by the Department of Marine and Fisheries. If they go beyond that amount the Department of Public Works are called upon to provide for them. It is for that service.
To provide for breaking ice in Thunder Bay and Lake Superior and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, $40,000.


John Douglas Hazen: There was a contract for
the breaking of ice in Thunder bay with the Canadian Towing and Wrecking Company which expired last spring. Public tenders were invited for renewing the service and only one tender was received, that of the Canadian Towing and Wrecking Company for $30,000. A new contract has been made at that figure. The contract formerly was for $33,000. Three years ago, when it expired, we asked for-public tenders and there was some competition and a contract was entered into for a sum which was less than $20,000, When that contract expired the contractor was not willing to go on, and we asked for tenders again and this was the lowest and only tender that we received. Included in this estimate there is $500 for the winter ferry service between the mainland and St. Joseph island which is under contract. Then $300 is allowed for keeping open the St. Croix river between New Brunswick and the state of Maine. I believe a similar amount is allowed by the government of the United States, or of the State of Maine, so that the river may be kept open and free from ice.


William Manley German: Is this not rather a broad way to put down an expenditure of $40,000:
To provide for breaking ice in Thunder bay and lake Superior and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, $40,000?
80i
That leaves it absolutely for the minister to say what other points shall be taken into consideration.


John Douglas Hazen: You cannot foresee whether ice will have to be broken or not, and where you may have to break it. I remember that one year we had a contract with Mr. Playfair, and ice had to be broken on some harbours in the lakes so as to facilitate the grain coming down. Another year, owing to strong representations from those engaged in the grain trade, we had to do ice-breaking on the St. Mary's river or else a good deal of damage would have resulted.


William Manley German: Of course, a good many thousand dollars may be spent on work like this which might not be necessary.
Lighthouse and coast service-repairs to Maritime Road, $1,000.


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose some' gentlemen will wonder what a maritime road is, as I have often wondered. In the seventies, the Government of Canada extended the telegraph line along the whole north coast of the Gaspe peninsula, and later to the island of Anticosti, as an aid to shipping, with the satisfactory result that shipwrecks on the island of Anticosti showed an immediate and substantial decrease in number. The north shore of the Gaspe peninsula is very mountainous and rugged and sparsely settled. A road was necessary for the maintenance of^the Government telegraph lines, if for no other purpose, and 185 miles of such road was built. Since then the Dominion Government has regularly contributed towards its repair. The municipalities would only repair the road within their own boundaries, and the Provincial Government would only repair those sections where there was population. There are long stretches of the road without any settlers fronting on it, and in these parts the road became impassable. Dr. Wake-ham, the Superintendent of Fisheries, who has charge of the repairs, recommends that this grant be continued for some years to come, and the Chief Engineer of the Department concurs in the recommendation.
Lighthouse and coast service-to provide for telephones at different points throughout the Dominion in connection with aids to navigation, $5,000.


William John Macdonald: Where are those
telephones?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not the information at hand just now, but I will furnish a list to my hon. friend.


William John Macdonald: The minister might
bring it down when next [DOT] he goes into Supply, and give the information to the House, because I wish to have it on Hansard.


John Douglas Hazen: Very well.
Lighthouse and coast service-for construction of a steamer to replace the Scout, $17,640.


John Douglas Hazen: A vote of $90,000 was passed in 1914-15 for a new boat called the Grenville to replace the Scout which was engaged in the buoy service on the St. Lawrence between Kingston and Cornwall. The Scout which was a very old boat was condemned by the inspector, and in the meantime we have chartered a boat for this service. The Grenville was built under contract with Poison's of Toronto and the contract price was $173,389. In 191314, $23,000 was paid and there is $90,000 voted for the present fiscal year 1914-15 leaving a balance due of $55,598. As the Poison Iron v.orks expect to be paid ninety per cent of the contract price before the end of the present fiscal year, it will be necessary to provide for $43,000 in the Supplementary Estimates for 1914-15. The Scout was an old wooden vessel built in Ontario. The Grenville is 164 feet long and 30 feet wide and will be completed for the season of navigation 1915-16.
Lighthouse and coast service-new vessel to replace the Maisonneuve, $30,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The Maisonneuve which
was engaged in the light service on the Ottawa river and the Kideau canal was an old wooden boat built at Smiths Falls, and she has been condemned as unsafe. The steamer to replace the Maisonneuve is being built at the Government shipyards in Sorel and is estimated to cost $40,000. A tug called the Maggie May has been chartered at $9 a day to take the place of the Maisonneuve..


William Manley German: What about the Scout?
I saw the Scout last summer.


John Douglas Hazen: The Scout was out last
summer, but she is not fit to go out again.


William Manley German: She did not look so unfit last summer that she could not go out again. I thought she was quite a boat.


John Douglas Hazen: As a matter of fact, we have been running her longer than we should have done. She was condemned some years ago.


William Manley German: Surely some use could
be made of her.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so. She has been condemned by the inspector of boilers and also by the inspector of hulls.
Lighthouse and coast service-amount required to provide a vessel to replace the Eureka, $100,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is what I told the
House about a few moments ago in regard to the pilot service at Father Point. We hope to be able to buy a suitable vessel for a smaller amount than the amount in the estimate, so that we can get it into service during this year. If we proceed to build a new vessel, I am afraid that it will cost more than $100,000. We are looking out now for a suitable vessel.


William Manley German: This $100,000 is put in
simply for the purpose of having it there in case you can find a suitable boat that you can buy at that figure?


John Douglas Hazen: We will buy one out of this appropriation.


William Manley German: Why bother about buying a vessel this year?


John Douglas Hazen: Because we want it for this season's business on the St. Lawrence. It is only a few months before navigation will open on the St. Lawrence, and if we are to carry out the recommendations made by the Pilot Commission and also by Lord Mersey, we must have a boat as soon as possible. If we have to get the designs and plans made for a boat and ask for tenders and award a contract, we cannot get a new boat until next year and perhaps not then. We are anxious to get a boat as soon as possible to carry out the recommendations.
Amount required to pay compassionate allowance to the widow of second officer Lachance of the C.G.S. Montmagny, who was lost on the occasion of the sinking of that vessel.


John Douglas Hazen: This is the compassionate allowance to the widow of second officer Lachance of the Montmagny, who was drowned while attempting to rescue passengers when the Montmagny collided with another vessel in the river St. Lawrence off Crane island in September, 1914. He was in the employ of the Government at the time, and it was thought fair to give this compassionate allowance.
Meteorological service, including magnetic observatory-grants, of $500 each to Kingston and Montreal observatories; also allowance of $400 to L. F. Gorman, observer at Ottawa.


John Douglas Hazen: Hon. gentlemen will see that the estimate is somewhat lower than it was last year. This is due to the fact

that last year [DOT]contained $8,000 for the completion of the observatory at St. John, $5,000 for an observatory at Victoria, and an item of $14,000 for director's residence at Toronto, which has been cut out. Otherwise the items are practically the same as last year. The service is carried on under the direction of Mr. Stupart, the chief of the service, and his headquarters are in the city of Toronto where the observatory is and he has observers in all parts of Canada.
Marine hospitals, including grants to institutions assisting sailors, $75,000.


Bowman Brown Law: Is there any change made in reference to the Marine hospital at Bunker's island?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Bowman Brown Law: Last year it was contemplated that the hospital be closed there and the seamen taken to the general hospital at the town of Yarmouth.


John Douglas Hazen: Nothing further has been done about, the matter.
Wrecked and distressed seamen, $3,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What amount was expended last year?	,


John Douglas Hazen: In 1913-14, $1,331.09. Up
to the 31st December of this year, $215. That is for assisting seamen, who are shipwrecked and distressed in foreign countries, to return home.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That policy was introduced only recently?	-


John Douglas Hazen: No, it is a very old practice.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is a good one and is to he commended. I did not know it was introduced 'before.


Arthur Bliss Copp: In reference to marine hospitals, take ports where there is not such a hospital. Have the sailors the right to be sent to the nearest hospital to receive aid from the Government and to be looked after?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: We used to have an old hospital at Westcock that has been abandoned. I did not know how the sailors would be treated.


John Douglas Hazen: We send them now to the local hospital at Moncton.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Can the minister tell me what amounts have been paid
to the medical men at Chetieamp in the county of Inverness for attending sick mariners last year?


John Douglas Hazen: I can give the hon. gentleman that information from the Auditor General's report. For attendance and medicine, Dr. P. J. Fiset was paid $110.75, and Dr. W. LeBlanc, $274; total, less $1 underpaid Dr. Fiset, $383.75.


Alexander William Chisholm: I suggest to the minister that an improvement might be effected in the work which is being done at Chetieamp by appointing one of these gentlemen at the usual salary. It is customary in other places to appoint one man at a salary of say $300. The whole responsibility would then be upon him, and the results would be more satisfactory. I respectfully ask the minister to take that suggestion into consideration.


John Douglas Hazen: The salaries in the different places range from $100 to $500, so far as my recollection goes. Perhaps it would be better to arrange to pay the amount in a lump sum. In this case the doctor furnishes his own medicines.


George William Kyte: What is paid to the marine doctor at Arichat, N.S.?


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. LeBlanc's salary as medical officer is $300.


George William Kyte: What is the salary of the doctor at St. Peter's ?


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. McDonald, $250.


William John Macdonald: I understood when I was home two or three weeks ago that negotiations have been had between the local hospital board in Piotou and the department with reference to the taking over of the old Sick Mariners' hospital. How does this matter stand ?


John Douglas Hazen: I think the negotiations are almost concluded. We were willing to hand the hospital over to the local hospital board at a nominal rental of $1, subject to certain conditions with respect to repairs, and so on; I have not the details in my mind. There was some little apprehension on their part that after taking the hospital and 'Spending some money on it we might probably take it back. There is not the slightest danger of that, however, because the idea of having marine hospitals has practically been abandoned. In every place where there is a proper public hospital the Marine Department makes arrangements with the hospital trustees to take all sick seamen at certain.

per diem rates. We find that this arrangement is better for the seamen, because they get better accommodation, and the cost to the department is very much less.


William John Macdonald: The organization
which conducted the negotiations with the minister in this matter was a local hospital board composed of persons of all denominations who are interested in charitable work. They did entertain an apprehension along the line suggested by the minister, and I pointed out to them that, from what I knew of the subject, the general policy of the department was primarily to see that the sailors were properly cared for, and that so long as the conditions of the transfer were carried out, the department would not take the hospital from them. I thought that the conditions proposed by the minister were fairly reasonable, and I said so. I hope the matter will be carried through, because the local people will be able to do the work very well.


Bowman Brown Law: If an arrangement is made to send sick mariners to a local hospital, is the salary to the medical health officer continued?


John Douglas Hazen: No. I will not say that there may not be exceptions to that rule. In a case where a hospital has been but recently taken over, the salary may continue for a short time, but the rule is that when a hospital is taken over the salary to the port physician ceases, because there is nothing for him to do.
Steamboat inspection, $83,265.
1 Mr. NESBITT: What was the cost of this service last year?


John Douglas Hazen: This is one of the few items in respect of which there is an increase. Inspectors' salaries will amount to $55,800, allowing for increases for the present inspectors and for salaries for other new inspectors whom it is necessary to appoint. One additional inspector has been appointed in Edmonton. The importance of this was urged upon me by the hon. member for Edmonton. There was no inspection of hulls in that district, and, as an inspector had to be sent a distance to make inspections there, a great deal of inconvenience resulted. The new inspector in that district is Mr. J. D. Matthews. The department has been giving some consideration to the necessity of appointing a hull inspector at Vancouver, where there is none at present. The remaining amendment is to cover travelling expenses and so on. This

includes travelling expenses of the inspectors, Mr. Ferguson, who is chief inspector, Mr. Duguid, naval architect, and Mr. McDonald, together with the travelling expenses of customs officers who from time to time assist us in this work. Salaries and inspectors, $48,850; travelling expenses of inspectors at $50 a month, 25 men, $15,000; Mr. Ferguson, estimated, $800; Mr. Duguid, estimated, $1,000; Mr. McDonald, estimated, $100; customs officers, $250. Adding 5 per cent for legal and other incidental expenses, we have the total of $83,265. The increases are in consequence of the addition of a new inspection district at Edmonton, and the appointment of an inspector at the port of Vancouver.


James McCrie Douglas: What salary does the inspector at Edmonton receive?


John Douglas Hazen: He was appointed at a salary of $1,500 and travelling expenses.


James McCrie Douglas: Does his district extend up the McKenzie river?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, it takes in the Great Slave lake district.
Salaries and disbursements of fishery officers, including' the expenses of the Fisheries Advisory Board, and an allowance of $300 to W. J. E. Casey, secretary thereof, $305,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would suggest to the minister the advisability of postponing consideration of the fishery Estimates, as the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) is not here.


John Douglas Hazen: We might pass some of
these items on the understanding that when these Estimates come up again any question respecting fisheries can then be discussed.
The increase here of $15,000 is due mainly to the fact that we expect to take over the administration of the fisheries in the tidal waters of Quebec west of Point Des Monts. It may be that we shall not take them over this year. The question of control of fisheries in tidal waters has been a vexed question for years. We made an arrangement, pending a legal decision, by which we would take control west of Point Des Monts. The case was referred to the Privy Council by a case agreed upon by the Dominion of Canada and the Government of British Columbia, and most of the other provinces intervened. Judgment was given by the Supreme Court of Canada; the case went to the Privy Council and the judgment there was in favour of the contention of the Federal government that there was a public right of fisheries

in the tidal waters and there being a public right of fisheries control was in the Federal Parliament. That is disputed by the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec claims that it is in a different position from the other provinces, that Magna Charta, under which this right of fisheries exists, does not apply and is not in force in Quebec. We gave notice that we would administer the fisheries and issue licenses; Quebec has done the same thing. We have had correspondence with Quebec and have suggested that, as apparently they are acting^ in good faith and we are acting in good faith another case should be taken for the consideration of the Supreme Court of Canada and then for the Privy Council. They have not agreed to that. Negotiations or correspondence is taking place now between the Minister of Justice of Canada and the Attorney General of Quebec, and I think some arrangement will probably b'e come to under which the question will be brought before the court for final settlement. It may therefore be that for the coming season we shall not attempt to enforce our rights but shall let 'matters remain in statu quo.


George William Kyte: Are these fishery officers in all cases the persons who collect the claims for fishing bounties and pay out the bounties to fishermen?


John Douglas Hazen: In nearly all cases they
are.


Bowman Brown Law: Referring to a return laid
on the table of the House with reference to a motion of mine as to tire salary paid to Ward Fisher, Inspector of Fisheries in Shelburne, I find that in 1912 his disbursements were $338.40. That is for six months. But in 1913 they went up to the magnificent sum of $1,009.84. Have the department any control over the disbursements or can the inspector charge what he desires? It looks to me as if $1,009 for one year was a very large sum indeed. In addition to that he charges expenses in coming to Ottawa to	assist the Shellfish Commission $113.70. He must have come up in a private car and gone back in the same way to run up such a bill coming from Shelburne here. In addition to that he paid a stenographer $58, which made $2,384.76 for one year. I say that amount is ridiculous and absurd, and it is taking money out of the pockets of the people, to which this gentleman is not entitled. Disbursements are larger than they have ever before been for the occupant of this office. The Government, in their kindness of heart
and from the fulness of the treasury, are paying this man in war time double the salary paid to his predecessor. I think it is time this gentleman came down to a salary such as others in the country have to live on.	[DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: Ward Fisher is, I am informed, a very competent and first-class man, and is doing first-class work. I do not think I ever met him personally, but I am told he is giving full return for every dollar he is receiving. Of course, an inspector who does not inspect is no good, and an inspector 'who does not travel about cannot do very much. An energetic man who gives the necessary time to his duties will have a larger. expense account than a man who performs his duties in a per-lunctory way. All accounts have to be accompanied by vouchers, for instance, a man furnishes vouchers for his hotel bills. When the accounts are furnished they are gone over by the accountant of the department, checke'd up and verified before being paid. As to the bill of expenses coming to Ottawa, he came here at the request of the Shellfish Commission and they kept him here for a considerable length of time. The vouchers for travelling expenses would all pass under the eye of the accountant, and would not be passed unless they were correct. When the return for which my hon. friend has moved comes down, and we are getting it ready, he will be able to get the information more in detail than I can give him.


Bowman Brown Law: Why does the inspector need a stenographer?


John Douglas Hazen: He has a very large amount of correspondence, especially with his department, and has a great many reports to make on license and other matters. I do not think it is unfair to allow him a moderate sum for a stenographer. The salary he receives himself is only $1,300, which in this age and generation is not a large salary for a competent man filling an important position.


Alexander William Chisholm: Do they all get the same allowance?


John Douglas Hazen: It varies with the work of the district. The fishery inspector on the river St. John gets $700, I think; and Mr. Morrison, the fishery inspector for northern New Brunswick, including the counties of Restigouche, Gloucester, Northumberland, Kent, Westmorland and Albert, gets $2,000, but no allowance for a stenographer. I
.COMMONS
think that is by long odds the heaviest district in the maritime provinces.


Bowman Brown Law: I understand then that he is getting $100 more than was put down in the answer to this question?


John Douglas Hazen: There is a schedule of wages. The inspectors start at a certain figure and get a yearly increase of $100 up to $1,500, which is the maximum; so that extra $100 is accounted for by the yearly increase.


Bowman Brown Law: He started with $600 more than the old inspector, and he gets an increase of $100 a year up to $1,500. His salary then in a few years will be two and a half times more than the salary of any other inspector.


John Douglas Hazen: My fishery officers tell me that it was the old inspector's fault. Before I came into office he was suspended for not attending to his duties. He would not carry out his instructions or do his work. He was getting all he was worth and more.


Bowman Brown Law: You would not expect him to do for $600 what another man would do for $1,200. This gentleman with double the salary can afford to do the work very much better.


George William Kyte: Do all fishery inspectors get an allowance for a stenographer?


John Douglas Hazen: They all get an allowance
except Mr. Donald Morrison, and I think Mr. Harrison.


George William Kyte: Is there an allowance in Cape Breton? -


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am afraid Mr. Morrison
will be asking for an allowance now for a stenographer.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, I am afraid this discussion will put him on the qui vive.


George William Kyte: He is on the right side of
politics, and will no doubt get one.


William Pugsley: He is getting about the highest salary of them all.


John Douglas Hazen: He has the largest district in the maritime provinces, and devotes his whole time to it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I presume that he has under him a large number of what .we call local inspectors?


John Douglas Hazen: Overseers, they are all included in this.


Arthur Bliss Copp: As I understand it, the overseers in my district get a salary of $150.


John Douglas Hazen: The pay is very small.


Arthur Bliss Copp: And they are allowed so
much for travelling expenses. I would suggest to the minister that it might be better to give them a bigger salary, and cut out the travelling expenses.


John Douglas Hazen: There is this about it. If you pay an inspector a lump salary there is no incentive for that man to travel around and. see that the regulations are being enforced in different parts of, the district, whereas if he is allowed a reasonable compensation for travelling expenses he is much more likely to see that the work is properly done.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I know my own district very well, and it is very easy down there to drive 20 miles in order to reach a place only 10 miles distant.


John Douglas Hazen: They ought to play the
game. -


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not say they do that,
but it might be done.


George William Kyte: Can the minister inform us as to the increases in salaries of fishery officers since 1911?


John Douglas Hazen: Inspector Calder is in charge of the Charlottetown officials and of the eastern part of St. John county and of the Isles of Grand Manan. He was getting $1,100 in 1911, and has had a yearly increase of $100 since, so that brings him up to about $1,400 this coming year; the same applies to Mr. Matheson of Charlottetown. Mr. Harrison, whose district is a small one, is getting the same pay as in 1911, $700.


George William Kyte: Unfortunately he is not a
supporter of the present Government. That accounts for the fact that the fairy godmother has not visited him.


John Douglas Hazen: Let me say that Mr. Harrison was a candidate against me on two occasions in the county of Sunbury. On one of those occasions he was fishery inspector and resigned his office to run against me, but immediately he was defeated he was reappointed fishery inspector.


William Pugsley: That was a great many years ago.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think I have shown very much revenge considering that he is still a fishery officer. I do not think that my hon. friend would suggest that he has
[Mr. Hazen.J

not been treated with a fair degree of consideration.


William Pugsley: Was not that in local politics, and was not one of the most prominent members of my hon. friend's Government a prominent Liberal, and was not that Administration alleged to be a coalition government?


John Douglas Hazen: What has that got to do with the fact that he ran against me?


William Pugsley: It would afford no excuse for my hon. friend, when he comes to Ottawa as Minister of Marine and Fisheries in a Conservative Government, to dismiss Mr. Harrison because he ran in a provincial election.


John Douglas Hazen: I will only quote the words of my hon. friend's leader, who laid it down as a principle, that if a man took an active part in either Dominion or local politics, he could not find fault if he was removed from office. It was on that occasion that my- right hon. friend said: "We feel that if a man wants to be a politician we ought to give him every opportunity to be one."


William Pugsley: He is a good man at any rate.


John Douglas Hazen: Oh, I think he is perhaps
a fairly good man. To return to the fishery inspectors. Mr. Hockin, who has been inspector in Pictou a great many years, was getting either $900 or $1,000 in 1911, and is now getting $1,300.


George William Kyte: What about Mr. MacLeod of Cape Breton?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. MacLeod is now getting $1,300, so my hon. friend will see the salaries are pretty uniform.


George William Kyte: Are these increases provided by statute or by the recommendation of the department ?


John Douglas Hazen: There has been an Order in Council passed providing for the increases. I found it .almost unbearable to have people getting their friends to write in order to get increases in their salaries and .so on. I felt that there should be some principle, or method, that would be uniform, and I got an Order in Council passed. providing that these men should get an increase of $100 a year up to $1,500.


James McCrie Douglas: What salary does Mr. Wood get in the northern. Alberta district ?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Wood is a fishery overseer, not a fishery inspector; he gets $500.


George William Kyte: Has there been any increase in 'the salaries of fishery overseers in Nova Scotia in the last two years ?


John Douglas Hazen: In western Nova Scotia there was a reorganization last year. We gave the overseers more pay, with no allowances.


George William Kyte: What are the salaries at present ?


John Douglas Hazen: In Annapolis county, W. Purdy, Deep Brook, $700;' Digby, W. Aymar, $500; G. E. Torrie, $700; Kings county, E. F. Reid, $200; Lunenburg, A. J. Evans, $200; Queens county, Charles Young, $700; Shelburne county, George Walls, $750; Yarmouth county, J. B. d'Entremont, $800.


George William Kyte: I did not hear the minister name the officers in Richmond.


John Douglas Hazen: Western Nova Scotia is where we have had the reorganization. We hope to follow that up with a further reorganization in other parts of Nova Scotia.


George William Kyte: Do the fishery overseers in eastern Nova Scotia remain as they were ?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Bowman Brown Law: I would like to know about the fishery guardians.


Alexander William Chisholm: What are the duties of one Cameron who was appointed to assist Mr. McLellan in Inverness county ?


John Douglas Hazen: I think he is a fishery guardian.


Alexander William Chisholm: I understand that
Cameron is doing a part of the work that Mr. McLellan used to do.


John Douglas Hazen: Guardians' duties are to assist the overseers.


Alexander William Chisholm: But these are not
guardians.


John Douglas Hazen: Cameron is a guardian.


Alexander William Chisholm: Where does he operate?


John Douglas Hazen: I have a list of overseers in Nova Scotia, and I have a list of overseers in Inverness county, and Cameron's name does not appear among them; so that if he is a fishery officer, he must be a guardian.


Alexander William Chisholm: That is what I want to find out. It appears that McLellan was the overseer.


John Douglas Hazen: McLellan is the overseer.


Alexander William Chisholm: Yea, John B. McLel-lan. I understand that some of Mr. Mc-Lellan's duties were taken away from him and that Mr. Cameron was appointed to do this work.


John Douglas Hazen: I should not think that very much of his duties would be taken away from him, because I see that he only gets $50 a year.


Alexander William Chisholm: That is at present, but what was it before the change was made?


John Douglas Hazen: I think it is the same. Cameron is not an overseer. His name does not appear in the list, and therefore he must be a fishery guardian.


Alexander William Chisholm: Cameron is doing some of McLellan's work; he is not a guardian.


John Douglas Hazen: From the information I have before me I am satisfied that he is not an overseer. I have not the list of guardians here, but if my hon. friend will come to my department and see Mr. Found, he will get all the information.


Bowman Brown Law: Has the minister the list of guardians in Yarmouth county?


John Douglas Hazen: No; I have not the guardians; I have the overseers.


Mr. TURGEON:: Would the minister
kindly give the salaries of the overseers in Gloucester county?


John Douglas Hazen: Gloucester county: Edmund Arseneau, Inkerman, $140; E. Sewell, Poke-mouche, $140; Thomas Canty, Bathurst, $200; J. P. Doucet, Petit Rocher, $200.


George William Kyte: Will the minister be good enough to let me have a list of the overseers in the county of Richmond before the items come up in committee again?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, I will have one sent to the hon. gentleman.


Bowman Brown Law: And of Yarmouth, too?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: Will this be a list for the coming year or for last year?


John Douglas Hazen: As it is at the present time.


Alexander William Chisholm: Does the department make it imperative for the overseers to send in the names of the guardians early in the season, or is there any fixed time?


John Douglas Hazen: The same method is* now adopted as that which has been in force almost since the department began.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: They are appointed annually?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: If the Minister has a list of guardians for Inverness
10 p.m. county for the year 1915, will he be good enough to send it to me?	.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, as soon as it is completed I will send it to my hon. friend.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What salary is Mr. Chapman getting?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Chapman is getting $709 a year.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand that is his retiring allowance.


John Douglas Hazen: It is not a retiring allowance; he is acting in an advisory capacity.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What was his regular salary before that?


John Douglas Hazen: $1,300 or $1,400 a year. .


Arthur Bliss Copp: And the present incumbent is getting $2,000.


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Chapman was advanced in years, and I had him appointed at $700 a year in an advisory capacity. I think my hon. friend approved of it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister send me a list of the guardians in Halifax county?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.
Building- fishways and clearing rivers, $30,000.


John Douglas Hazen: In 1913-14 the expenditures under this item were $12,341. In 1914-15, up to December 31, they were $8,837. The largest expenditures are usually in British Columbia where, owing to the nature of the country, jams form in the important fishery rivers from time to time which have to be removed, frequently at considerable expense. The natural obstructions, such as falls, may sometimes be removed, affording access for the fish to important spawning grounds.
Canadian Fisheries Museum, $8,000.


John Douglas Hazen: I wish hon. gentjemen
who are interested in fisheries would, if they have not already done so, visit the Museum, as I believe there is something to interest them there.


Bowman Brown Law: There is a reduction of $8,000 in this vote.


John Douglas Hazen: We have been getting the Museum established for some years, and now we are clear of that expense, so that we can reduce the rate by one-half.


Mr. MURPHY:: What officials are employed there?


John Douglas Hazen: There is Mr. Halkett, who is a scientist and a man of high standing as a biologist, and1 there are also Mr. Rochon, Mr. Grignon and Mr. Rice.
Oyster culture, $6,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is this for?


John Douglas Hazen: The department has had for some years the services of Mr. Kemp, who is an expert in oyster culture, and during the present year much of the time has been spent in endeavouring to rid the beds in Richmond bay, Prince Edward Island, of star-fish. Mr. Kemp also gives advice and instruction to those who are taking up oyster culture. In view of the uncertainty as to the ownership of the -barren bottoms suitable for oyster culture, for . many years after the Privy Council's decision nothing was done as neither the Federal nor the Provincial Government felt in a position to grant leases of these areas. Following our amendment to the Fisheries Act in 1912, agreements were entered into with the provincial governments of the three maritime provinces, and in Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick considerable progress has been made in building up an industry in oyster culture and cultivation. The star-fish in Richmond bay are proving a great enemy to the oyster, and as everything has an enemy it is said that the enemy of the star-fish is the lobster, and that the reason the star-fish are doing more harm than formerly is because there are not so many lobsters. Steps are being taken to try to get rid of the star fish in Richmond bay. As my hon. friend (Mr. J. J. Hughes) knows, in his own province and in the counties of Kent, Westmorland the barren bottoms have been planted on quite a large scale, and I think the experiment will be successful as was the case in Rhode Island where the oyster beds were depleted to a great extent and are now being renewed.


Mr. GOPP:: This vote is not all for M|r. Kemp's salary.


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Kemp's salary is less
than $2,000, but he has travelling expenses and the maintenance of a boat has to be provided for.


William John Macdonald: How is the oyster
bed in Caribou harbour progressing?


John Douglas Hazen: I think that is being attended by the government of Nova Scotia.


William John Macdonald: The deputy minister will recall that some four or five years ago the oyster expert of the Dominion Government set out a bed in Caribou harbour; is there any report as to that?


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that five or six years ago there was a bed planted there, and it has been carefully looked after, and is doing very well.	.


William John Macdonald: I would be obliged if the deputy minister would send me the last report on it.


John Douglas Hazen: That will be done.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Does Mr. Kemp
hire a boat?


John Douglas Hazen: No, he uses a Government boat called the Ostrea.
To pay customs officers for service in connection with issuing modus vivendi licenses, $900.
Mr. KY'TE: How is this amount appropriated to the different customs officers?


John Douglas Hazen: The modus vivendi license, which amounts to $1.50 per registered ton, is issued by the customs officers, and we pay them a commission of five per cent.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has'the minister ever taken into consideration the question of reducing the modus vivendi license fee to a nominal sum? I have no definite views upon the matter, but I know that the opinion has been frequently expressed that now inasmuch as Canadian fish have largely free entry into American ports, the modus vivendi license fee should be reduced to a nominal sum. I think it is worth considering, and I would ask the minister if representations have been made to him in respect to this matter. I did not know until lately that the department refuses to issue licenses to American fishing vessels propelled by gasoline. I am informed that it is claimed by the department that the provisions of the Treaty of 1818 preclude the issuing of licenses to that class of fishing craft. I would hardly think it proper to refuse a modus vivendi license to American vessels just because they are propelled by some power other than sail. In some of the southwestern counties of Nova Scotia there is a great deal of opposition to the policy of not issuing licenses to that class of fishing vessels, thus preventing them coming to Nova Scotian ports at a considerable loss to the ports.


John Douglas Hazen: There -are a good many phases of this question that have required
127G


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It would be a mistake to repeal the modus vivendi.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. There may be a
change of Government in the United States, and the Republican party may come back to power. They might reimpose the duties on fish going into the United States. While we have the free admission of fish into the United States, our fishing boats cannot take their fish there and sell them. They have

to transfer the fish to some mercantile boats. Take a boat that is going out from Lunenburg or Canso or any town in Nova Scotia, which has a cargo of fish. If she takes the fish to an American port and tries to sell them, she will not be allowed to do so. The fish must be in a vessel engaged in the mercantile business. If an American fisherman comes into one of our ports under the modus vivendi, he is allowed to clear to the shipping grounds. If a Nova Scotia boat goes across to Boston or any other port in the United States and wants to get away, she cannot clear for the fishing grounds; she has first to clear for some port in Canada and them clear from there to the fishing grounds. Therefore we are not on an equal basis with the United States, as we are giving them certain benefits under the modus vivendi which they are not allowing us. Under those circumstances, and in view of the fact that we do not know what the future may hold for us, I do not think it would be well for us to repeal the modus vivendi. There are places in Nova Scotia where years ago the people would have been glad to see the modus vivendi repealed; but they would not like to see it repealed to-day, although they would like to have a nominal fee imposed. This matter requires very careful consideration. Hon. gentlemen know the history of the modus vivendi, how it was expected that the Washington treaty would be confirmed under which we were to get free admission of our fish into .the United States on the condition that we would give the same rights to our ports for United States fishing vessels that were enjoyed by our own people. There was a delay in the Washington treaty being confirmed on account of the general election that was approaching, and therefore the modus Vivendi was passed under which fishing vessels of the United States were allowed, on payment of $1.50 a ton, to come into Canadian ports for the purpose of landing crews and transhipping their fish; whereas without that agreement they had only the privilege under the treaty of 1818 which gave the American vessels the right to come into Canadian ports for four purposes, namely, for wood, shelter, repairs and water, and for no other purpose whatever. Under the modus vivendi they have practically all the privileges of our own fishermen. Different views may be taken' about the question, and I do not think anything should be done in a hurry under present conditions.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: At the last general election, some of the hon. gentlemen opposite, particularly from Nova Scotia, raised the issue to which the minister has just referred, namely, the inability of Canadian fishing vessels to proceed from the fishing grounds to United States ports. There may be some disabilities of that nature, but 1 do not think it is a settled matter.


John Douglas Hazen: What I am speaking of is a very recent treasury rule. It was called to my attention within the last two days. We have sent for a copy of it to be certain about the matter.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would suggest this: if the United States market is of any benefit to Canadian fishermen-and I believe it is -then we should do everything in our power to preserve that market. The continuance of the modus vivendi license may be an irritant to those of the United States interested in the fishing business, and it will be used by American interests antagonistic to the present American tariff upon fish products as a ground upon which to urge a change in the present tariff and a reversion to former high tariff duties. If there is a disability against Canadian fishing vessels reporting to American ports directly from the fishing grounds, the minister should take up this matter with the United States Government and there should be some conferences with them upon that subject.


John Douglas Hazen: The total collections amount to less than $10,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is not very much, but perhaps a reduction might have the effect of causing the United States to maintain their present tariff on fish. As the minister himself suggested, the United States frequently change their tariffs, and it would be a great loss to Canada if the former tariff rates on fish were restored. As to the prohibition against issuing licenses to fishing vessels propelled by gasoline or other power, I am surprised to learn that there is such an Order in Council in existence. I never heard of it until recently. I do not think it is fair; I mink it will operate against our own interests. In counties like Shelburne, Queens, Yarmouth and possibly Iligby, this prohibition, I am informed, means a considerable loss of trade to many of the ports in these counties. If sailing vessels are permitted to obtain a license, it seems most illogical to say that vessels propelled by gasoline cannot obtain a similar
license. One needs only to state the facts to disclose the absurdity of the position.


John Douglas Hazen: We have had correspondence with the authorities in the United States about this matter, which is really under consideration at the present time. But does my hon. friend think that the question of the American tariff would be very much affected, by our action in regard to modus vivendi?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The fishery interests in Gloucester and Boston are very powerful.


John Douglas Hazen: The free admission of fish was a provision of the tariff of the Democratic party, which declared in favour of cheaper food for the people of the United States and for the removal of any imposition by way of tax upon it. I doubt very much whether our making a nominal charge would effect the attitude of the people of the United States; I am inclined to think that they would be guided by what they consider to be their own interests in the matter. If they believe that it would be to the advantage of their people to get our fish without the payment of duty, then they will continue the free fish provision. But if, on the other hand, they should think that the free admission of fish interferes with the interests of American fishermen, the chances are that they would put the duty on again. I doubt very much whether any action on our part in respect of a small matter like the modus vivendi license would affect that larger question.


James Joseph Hughes: Does a license
under modus vivendi give the right to land fish and to ship them in bond?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, to land fish and to
ship through Canada to the United States.
To provide for the exhibit of fresh and cured food fish at the Toronto annual exhibition, $15,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The year before last, for
the first time, we got an appropriation for the purpose of making an exhibit of fish at the Toronto exhibition, and the exhibit was so successful that we repeated it last year. The directors awarded us a gold medal for our exhibit; they said it was one of the best at the fair. I think that this exhibit at the Toronto exhibition has done a great deal to give the people an idea of the extent of the Canadian fisheries. Fish dealers in Toronto tell me that as a result of the exhibition of fresh and cured fish at the Toronto fair the demand for fish obtained from the Atlantic and Pacific provinces was very considerably increased. The

directors are most anxious that we should continue the exhibit, and I believe that it is in the interests of the country that we should do so.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How do you
spend $15,000 on that?


John Douglas Hazen: We did not spend that
amount. In the first year we spent $9,700 and since that $7,600. We had the idea last year that we might operate a restaur-rant where people could obtain fresh fish each day. We could not work the idea out, however; it was difficult to get a staff to take charge, and other obstacles presented themselves. I do not know Whether or not we can do it this year, but the larger amount would enable us to carry out that idea. I was at the Toronto exhibition last year for the first tirnie, and I was surprised at its extent; undoubtedly it is the largest annual affair on the continent of America. Each day they have a luncheon, which is attended by several hundred persons and at which addresses are given on various subjects. They have an agricultural day, an educational day and so on; I suggested to the president that they should have a fisl| day. I observe that this year they are announcing a fish day, and at the luncheon addresses will be delivered dealing with our fisheries, the advantage of fish as a food, and so on. nil these things help to make the people understand the value of our Canauian fisheries.


James Joseph Hughes: A great deal would depend upon the manner in which the fish is prepared. In Ottawa it is almost impossible to get fish properly prepared.


John Douglas Hazen: They do not know what salt fish is.


James Joseph Hughes: They certainly do not know how to prepare fish for table use.


Charles Murphy: Could not that portion of the exhibit which consists of cured fish be preserved from year to year, so that the expenditure under that head would be avoided?


John Douglas Hazen: I think some of it is being preserved.
Salaries, building and maintenance of fishbreeding establishments, $400,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Are lobster hatcheries included in this item?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the minister any report from the lobster hatcheries in our province as to whether they are successful or otherwise?


John Douglas Hazen: We get regular reports from all the hatcheries. There is no question as to the success of the salmon and white-fish hatcheries, but the lobster hatcheries have so far been only in the experimental stage. We believe that some advantage is beginning to result from the operations of these hatcheries; I understand that along the Northumberland straits that is the opinion of the fishermen. I do not believe, however, that the fishery experts have learned as yet the proper method of putting . these lobsters into the water in such manner as to prevent large numbers of them from being destroyed. The Biological Board of Canada is experimenting at the lobster pond at Digby with a view to overcoming this difficulty. Generally speaking, however, I think that results are beginning to show from the lobster hatcheries.
Inspection of canned and pickled fish, $25,000.


George William Kyte: Is this to be expended under the Act passed last year?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


George William Kyte: Would the minister allow that to stand? It is a new and rather important item, upon which there will be considerable discussion when other hon. gentlemen are present.


John Douglas Hazen: We might pass it on the understanding that it may be discussed on another occasion under any other item.


George William Kyte: I see that the amount provided in 1914-15 was $50,000, and that the amount for 1915-16 is $25,000. Does that mean that more than $25,000 was spent in -1914-15?


John Douglas Hazen: No, we spent only about $3,000. We estimated too much last year, the reason being that we took over from the Department of Agriculture the administration of the Meat and Canned Foods Act, so far as it relates to canned fish. At the time the Estimates were prepared last year it was thought it might be necessary to have a separate set of officers to carry out the provisions of that Act, but we found that on the Atlantic coast it would be sufficient to confine the inspection to factories, and the existing staff were able to carry out the inspection. We are getting our inspectors appointed, and some of them have been meeting the fishermen, instructing them about barrels, etc.


George William Kyte: Have any officers been appointed in Nova Scotia to carry out the Act ?


John Douglas Hazen: Some have been appointed. There are six districts for the purpose of this Act. District No. 1 includes t-he Gaspe peninsula and other parts of the Gulf coast of Quebec. No inspector for that district has been appointed. District No. 2 comprises the country from Restigoubhe county to Kent county, inclusive, in New Brunswick. An inspector has been appointed for that district, Mr. Colson Hubbard. District No. 3 comprises Prince Edward island, the Magdalen island and the counties of Pictou, Colchester and Cumberland. No inspector has yet been appointed for that district. District No. 4 comprises Cape Breton island. An inspector has been appointed for that district, Mr. Herbert Mann.


George William Kyte: What is the salary?


John Douglas Hazen: 


George William Kyte: And have they an allowance for travelling Expenses ?


John Douglas Hazen: Travelling expenses will
be paid. District No. 5 is from Antagonist! to Yarmouth county. Mr. Hilts has been appointed for that district. District No. 6 comprises the Bay of Fundy, counties of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, including Charlotte county, St. John county, Albert county and Westmorland county in New Brunswick, and Pictou and Hants in Nova Scotia. The inspector appointed for that district is Mr. A. O. Havelock Wilson.


George William Kyte: How many local inspectors will there be ?


John Douglas Hazen: There will be only the six district inspectors.


George William Kyte: Will there be any other salaried officers to carry out the law ? Will one inspector be able to carry out the inspection for the four counties in Cape Breton ?


John Douglas Hazen: The inspector will go to any point where he is required to inspect fish and see that they are packed and in proper condition and in proper barrels. If they are, he places the prescribed mark upon them, showing that they are properly packed.


George William Kyte: Suppose that half a dozen fishermen at one point wish to have fish inspected one week and the following week half a dozen others in the same place. Would the inspector have to make two visits ?


John Douglas Hazen: He would have to go back, but we naturally suppose that fishermen
wanting to have fish inspected would try to arrange to have one visit cover them all. Of course we want to do what is convenient for the fishermen.


George William Kyte: Is it possible for all fishermen in a district to have their fish ready for inspection at the same time ?


John Douglas Hazen: These are pickled fish and could wait for a while.


George William Kyte: I am afraid the minister will discover after a time that it will be impossible to carry out the intention of the Act with only one inspector for each group.


John Douglas Hazen: If more are required, I
suppose we will have to get them, but we are simply starting the system and we will have to feel our way with it. The Act is not compulsory. By the end of another year we shall have a better knowledge of what is required.


George William Kyte: I hope the minister is appointing competent inspectors. Who are Mr. Mann and Mr. Hilts, and what are their- occupations?


Mr. DUGALD STEWART:: Mr. Hilts belongs to Mahone bay in Lunenburg county. He has been foreman for a large fishing firm and is an expert in the business.


George William Kyte: Who is Mr. Herbert Mann?
Mr._ HAZEN : I have not the recommendations here, but on asking his qualifications we found that they were quite right. The qualifications laid down were that the^ should be healthy, accurate, strictly temperate, and, if possible, not more than 40 years of age; they should possess a reasonably good education, be capable of intelligently imparting instruction to fishermen and packers and have been directly engaged in the fishing business and have special knowledge of the curing of mackerel and herring. The general inspector is to be an expert in fishery matters, and have a knowledge of barrel making. Each inspector gets $1,200. In district No. 2 it was necessary to have an inspector who could speak the two languages. Mr. Havelock Wilson of St. John has been engaged in the fishing business all his life; he is a very intelligent man, of good education, respectable in every way, and with a thorough knowledge of the fishing business. Mr. Colson Hubbard carried on the fishing business in Gloucester county for a number of years, and is also very familiar with all the details of the business, and speaks French as well as English.


George William Kyte: Does the minister happen to know where Mr. Mann, the inspector for Cape Breton, lives?


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that he is from Sydney.


George William Kyte: Sydney would be rather an unexpected place to find a gentleman with these qualifications, because there is no one in the fishing business there.


James Joseph Hughes: How many inspectors are there for Prince Edward Island?


John Douglas Hazen: I explained that there is
one inspector for district No. 3, which includes the Island and the counties of Pic-tou, Colchester and Cumberland.


James Joseph Hughes: Is that district not too
large?


John Douglas Hazen: No, I think the division of districts is pretty good.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do you permit
the inspectors to engage in any other occupation?	/


John Douglas Hazen: No, we expect them to give all of their time to this work.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I hope that all the appointments made will come up to the standard fixed by the department. I think there should be a very high standard for such officers. These men have the opportunity of doing an educative work among the people whose fishery products they inspect. I think it is desirable that they should be well educated. I hope the minister will see that those who are appointed do not treat their appointment merely as a way of getting a living. They should be interested in their work, because if they are competent men they can do a great service to the State.
To provide for the building of fisheries patrol boats, $32,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is to provide a pew
boat for the Magdalen islands. The Semiahamo, the old patrol boat, has been condemned by the inspector. These boats will be gasoline.
. To provide for a fisheries patrol steamer for Lake Winnipeg, $100,000.


Charles Murphy: This is a pretty expensive boat.


John Douglas Hazen: -We asked for tenders for the construction of that boat, but not a single firm in Canada tendered. The difficulty was that the boat was for 'nke Winni-

peg, and would have to be assembled out there. As not a single firm tendered, we are building the boat ourselves at Sorel, and it will be sent out there to be assembled. I dn not think the cost is excessive, considering the locality and the difficulties of the situation. The fisheries of lake Winnipeg are getting more and more important all the time, and so is the' general commerce of the lake. There was an old boat there called the Lady of the Lake, but it is now obsolete. Hon. gentlemen may be interested to know that the name of the new boat is the George H. Bradbury.
To provide for an investigation into the fisheries of Hudson bay, $10,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why does not
the minister take that out and relieve the Finance Minister to that extent? It is no good.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. member will remember that two years ago there was a discussion in the House as to the necessity of our getting information with regard to the fisheries of Hudson bay. I think my hon. friend from Edmonton is quite interested in the matter. Last year we started to get information, and we had a vote in the Estimates for $15,000, of which we have spent $13,109. We have sent out three expeditions, two of them overland. The two overland expeditions confined their attention to James bay and the tributary waters. The report of each of these expeditions has been published and laid on the table of the House. Not much information has been secured regarding the fisheries of the bay proper, the main attention having been given to the rivers flowing into the bay. There is some reason to believe that valuable fisheries exist in Hudson Bay waters, and we think it wise to continue the investigation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: When I suggested that the amount be struck out I did not know that you were doing any >vork. I think that about two years ago the Government sent a special person to Hudson bay to investigate the fishery resources, but while he drew his salary he never gave ns any information; in fact I do not think he carried on any investigation at all.


John Douglas Hazen: That was Professor
McCarthy, of King's College, Windsor. He had no opportunity of acquiring information considering the conditions.


Charles Murphy: This amount will enable the Government to complete the investigation?

Department of the Interior-Immigration- Seed grain to settlers on patented and unpatented lands in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta-further amount required, including Governor General's warrants for $3,640,007.20, $8,159,958.25.


Charles Murphy: It is quite possible that the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) may wish to discuss this. I have no objection to the item going through, provided that my hon. friend agrees to let us discuss it later.


Mr. ROCHE:: On Monday I am introducing a resolution, upon which a Rill will be founded to legalize the arrangement we have made with various provinces, and any discussion could take place on the resolution or on the Bill.


Charles Murphy: Or on some other item.


William Roche: Yes. We are anxious to get this through to-night because many of the lnerchants are waiting to be paid for the relief supplied.


James McCrie Douglas: Was any time limit set within which applications for seed grain had to be made?


William Roche: I gave that information yesterday across the floor of the House in answer to a question from the hon. member for Regina. Applications closed as far as the drouth-stricken area was concerned, on January 31. Applications for the district outside of the drouth-stricken area, but in which the farmers were similarly situated, were received up to February 20. In other portions of the province applications were received up to March 10. That was the last day on which we received applications.


James McCrie Douglas: Is that a hard and fast rule? For instance, if a settler in the drouth-stricken area did not know that the distribution closed on January 31, would he be denied the seed if he applied at a later date?


William Roche: The hon. member will
recognize that we had to fix some date in which applications were to be received; otherwise we should not have known what quantity of grain to purchase, and it takes considerable time to purchase grain and have it put through the elevator, cleaned, bagged, and distributed. We circularized those in the drouth-stricken area, both through the press and by circular, notifying them of the date by which applications had to be in, and I am sure that those within that area had ample time in which to make application; and the best evidence of that 81
is the fact that we have accepted 48,000 applications. Several thousands more have been received, but rejected.


James McCrie Douglas: I have a letter making a complaint in regard to another man in connection with this seed grain distribution. This man writes that he had his application accepted for seed grain and that he was afterwards notified by Mr. Bruce Walker that owing to the statement that he did not have eighty acres of land under cultivation he could not be given the necessary grain to seed this land. In the letter which I have before me he states that he has eighty acres of land ready for cultivation. Mr. Walker writes as follows:
Winnipeg-, Man., Feb. 9, 1915.
Sir,-Further to your application for an advance of seed grain, I here notify you that your application for an advance of seed grain has been cancelled as I have been informed that you have not 80 acres under cultivation and that your land is not in fit shape to receive seed.
Kindly destroy the notice sent you that your application had been approved.
(Sgd.) J. Bruce Walker,
Commissioner.
This man had had his application approved by Mr. Walker, and then, on account of Mr. Walker's claiming that his land was apparently not fit for seed, his application was cancelled and he was notified accordingly. I would like to know how Mr. Walker knew that he had not eighty acres under cultivation or that the land which he had under cultivation was not fit to receive seed?


William Roche: Is this in the drouth-stricken area?


James McCrie Douglas: Yes.


William Roche: You are confident of that?


James McCrie Douglas: It is at Bar Hill, Alberta, near Lethbridge.


William Roche: The only explanation that I can give is that Mr. Walker, or his officials, were instructed to make an investigation in every ease possible and not give seed where the land was not suitable for seeding. We have a great many letters and representations urging us to see that the land is properly prepared for seed and to send out instructors to see that the seed is put in properly. I presume that Mr. Walker had investigated and found out that this man's land was in such a condition that it would be an absolute waste were we to give him the seed. They have been instructed



to investigate as closely as possible in each case.


James McCrie Douglas: Has he a special inspector for each case?


William Roche: He has a number of officials in each district. The drouth-stricken area was divided into five districts almost according to the boundaries of the land districts, and there was a supervisor placed over each one of these districts. He had a certain number of officials to investigate these cases. The Mounted Police are doing a considerable portion of the work at the present time.


James McCrie Douglas: There has been a report in the western papers that the seed which is being provided for distribution
11 p.m. is not clear of noxious weeds.
The department is claiming that no land Should be put under cultivation that is not fit. I presume that would mean that unfit land would be full of noxious weeds, and yet the statement is made in the public press that the seed contains a considerable quantity of noxious weeds. The statement may not be absolutely true. Has the department taken any steps to see that the grain has been properly cleaned? [DOT]


William Roche: Yes, the seed commissioner of the Department of Agriculture is on the ground looking after that. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Burrell) has his representative there and it is his special duty to see that seed is sent out containing no noxious weeds. I have never had a single complaint on that score. I believe they were particularly careful in view of the complaints that were received with regard to the distribution of seed in 1908.


James McCrie Douglas: In connection with this complaint, the man who wrote this letter from Bar Hill gives the reason why he was refused this grain. The reason may not appeal to the minister. He claims that he is a Liberal, and that the inspector is not of the Liberal faith. There is a personal grudge between these two men and that is the reason why he was refused the grain.


William Roche: I do not take any stock in that.


James McCrie Douglas: You would not believe that?


William Roche: No, not at all, particularly when Mr. Walker turned down his application.


James McCrie Douglas: Mr. Walker would only have the report of his own official in that section. The man makes the statement that the land is in the same condition as that of his neighbours and that his neighbours have been getting the seed while he has been denied it. As regards the quantity of land under cultivation he claims that he has eighty acres. Is there a regulation which requires that there shall be a certain amount of land under cultivation?


William Roche: There is a maximum quantity of 400 bushels of all kinds of seed grain.


James McCrie Douglas: Eighty acres would not require any such amount. Is there a minimum amount of land required to be under cultivation in order to get seed?


William Roche: Is it possible that he may have asked for more seed than his land would require. If the hon. gentleman thinks he has a complaint that is well founded, let him give me the facts of the case and I will have it specially investigated. If the case is as represented in these letters there is no reason why he should not be supplied with this seed.


James McCrie Douglas: Here is Mr. Walker's
statement:
Tour advance has been cancelled as X have been informed that you have not eighty acres under cultivation and that your land is not in fit shape.


William Pugsley: It is extraordinary to compel a man to have eighty acres in order to get seed.


William Roche: It is possible that he may have reported that he had eighty acres ready for seed and it may have been found that this was a misrepresentation. That may have called forth the letter from Mr. Walker.


James McCrie Douglas: This man writes that he has twenty acres fall ploughed which he intends to put in wheat and that when he ploughs the rest for oats and flax he will have eighty acres under cultivation in all. The only claim that Mr. Walker can legitimately have against this man is that the land is not fit to receive the seed. The question of the acreage should not enter into the matter at all. If a man asks for seed to sow eighty acres, and if the Government are fully protected by a lien on the man's land, I do not see why Mr. Walker should write telling him that he cannot get the seed. The question is whether this man's land is fit to receive the seed and also whether the inspector of the

department has been fair in stating that the land is not fit for the seed.


William Roche: Has the hon. gentleman the original letter of Mr. Walker?


James McCrie Douglas: Yes.


William Roche: If the hon. gentleman will hand that letter to me I will have the case investigated.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Hazen the House adjourned at 11.25 p. m.
Monday, March 22, 1915.