1915-03-29

DOMINION ELECTIONS.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) presented the first report of the
[Stage Direction]
Select Committee appointed to inquire into the operation of the Act relating to the election of members to this House, and into the practice and procedure in connection with election petitions, as follows:
The Select Committee appointed to inquire into the operation of the Act relating to the election of members to this House, and into the practice and procedure in connection with election petitions, beg to report a Bill to amend the Controverted Elections Act, and a Bill to amend the Dominion Elections Act, to both of which Bills the members of the committee have unanimously agreed.
Upon the question of enabling officers and men of the military forces of Canada on active service to exercise their franchise at any election that may oocur during their absence in such service, referred upon the resolution moved in the House by Mr. Fripp, M.P., your committee beg to sumbit a Bill which is here annexed.
(Signed) Charles J. Doherty,
Chairman.
He said: The committee presents three Bills, one to amend the Dominion Elections Act, one to amend the Controverted Elections Act, and a Bill looking to provide for the giving of votes to soldiers and providing for the methods by which these votes may be registered. In regard to the first two Bills, I am asked by the committee to say that the committee is unanimous in recommending them to the House. With regard to the last Bill, with reference to the giving of votes to soldiers, I am asked to say that the committee was not unanimous in adopting it, but submit it to the House, the majority commending it, but the minority not concurring either as to the desirability of the measure as a whole or as regards the methods suggested for carrying out its principle.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: May I ask the minister if the War Office has been communicated with as to having sueh an innovation introduced into the British Army?


Mr. DOHERTY:: I am not aware that there has been any communication with the War Office on the subject.



ADULTERATION ACT AMENDMENT MAPLE SUGAR AND SYRUP.

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Hon. P. E. BLONDIN (Minster of Inland Revenue) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 114, to amend the Adulteration Act. He said: This amendment pur-* .poses to enforce the law passed last year concerning the fabrication and sale of maple sugar and maple syrup by forcing the sellers of imitations to label such articles with a declaration making the pub-

lie aware that they are imitations. It also restricts the use of the word "maple" to the absolutely pure products from the sap, and it increases the minimum penalty for infraction of said Act from twenty-five dollars to fifty 'dollars.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


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Mr. BLONDIN moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 116, to amend the Inland Revenue Act. He said: This amendment is in order to include in the Inland Revenue Act a clause similar to clause 6 of the Customs Act regarding the appointment of temporary officials by Order in Council.
Mr. SPEAKER:: My attention has been drawn to the fact that this Bill purposes to increase salaries, and that being so it is practically a money Bill that would have to be introduced by resolution. The resolution might be prepared and notice of it given to-day.


Mr. MARCIL:: Are these officials of the inside service or of the outside service?


Mr. BLONDIN:: The outside service.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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Mr. BLONDIN moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 115, to amend the Inland Revenue Act. He said: This amendment is to permit excise goods, such as tobacco, cigars and cigarettes, to be transferred from the factory to Halifax or Vancouver in bond, in order that they may be ready for delivery at such time as warships may stop at one of these ports for a few hours only.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Sir GEORGE FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 112, to amend the Canada Grain Act. He said: This Bill will make two short amendments to the Act. The effect of the first is to make the weighing at Fort William and Port Arthur final. The other has the effect of making the grade certificate prima facie evidence in litigation.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 113, to amend the Gold and Silver Marking Act, 1913-Sir George Foster -introduced and read the first time.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is it the intention to have an adjournment at Easter?
I make this inquiry because, though I thought at one time that it would be possible to prorogue before Easter, or about Easter, it is evident now that we, cannot possibly have prorogation before Easter even if we were to sit every day, and we cannot do that, next Friday being Good Friday. Besides, we find to-day seven new Government measures brought before us for the first time. There are the three Bills of the Minister of Inland Revenue, an important resolution by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and a still more important resolution by the Minister of Railways. That makes five. Then there are the two Bills from the Senate, which, as I understand, are Government measures, and which, while I suppose, not contentious, are still of great importance. This makes seven new measures to be taken up, added to what we have still unfinished. Besides, we have not yet the Supplementary Estimates for the coming year. So, it is absolutely impossible to contemplate a prorogation even within the coming week, and I ask, is it the intention to have an adjournment at Easter or not?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I do not abandon the possibility of reaching a conclusion of our labours this week. My right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) tabulates the new measures as seven. They are seven in number, but, so far as I know, the three Bills presented by the Minister of Inland Revenue, and the two from my own department, are practically non-contentious measures and very short; I think the House can deal with them very quickly. The two others that were mentioned may cause a little more discussion than these. We are practically very well along with the Estimates, and the Government measure which we have before us to-day I hope we shall be able to dispose of without too long a discussion. So that, with diligence and application, and the same good feeling that characterized the sittings of the House last week, I
think we can get the business very fairly well disposed of by Thursday night. However, as that may not be absolutely possible, though I hope that members on both sides of the House will work towards that end, I have given notice of a motion by which the House will be asked to adjourn -if it is to adjourn-from Thursday night until Saturday morning; and so we shall have Friday free, but no extended holidays at Easter. From what I have learned of the opinion on both sides of the House, while we are all anxious to do what is necessary and not to go away until that is done, at the same time we dp not wish to stay here an hour longer than is absolutely necessary. Many members on both sides of the House have expressed the wish that we should not have a long adjournment at Easter. I will move my resolution tomorrow; 1 hope that the right hon. gentleman will turn it over in his mind in the meantime, and that he will facilitate as much as possible the object we have in view.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is no
desire on this side of the House-and our conduct has shown that-to prolong the session beyond what is absolutely necessary. I would not have risen as I have done were it not for the fact that these very important measures-that proposed by the Minister of Railways and Canals is of very great importance-have been brought before us at this moment, and such measures cannot be passed except with ample discussion. Then, I have to remind my hon. friend that the Supplementary Estimates for the coming year are not yet down. 1


George Eulas Foster: As to the Supplementary Estimates, I think I can assure my right hon. friend that they will not be very numerous nor very extensive, and that they will be brought down to-day.


Hon. W. T. WHITE:: Or to-morrow.


Wilfrid Laurier: There does
not seem to be unanimity on that point.


George Eulas Foster: I am sure they will not call for much discussion. The Minister of Finance (Mr. White) says they will be down to-morrow anyway.



PRIVATE BILLS.


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Bill No. 82, respecting the Patent of the National Wood Distilling Company.-Mr. Green.
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Bill No. 83, for the relief of Lottie Thorndike.-Mr. Boyce.
Bill No. 86, respecting the Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 88 for the relief of Adam Clarke Anderson.-Mr. Wallace.
Bill No. 90 for the relief of Alexander McIntyre.-Mr. Bristol.
Bill No. 91 for the relief of Violet Burnett Delmege.-Mr. Brabazon.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. McKENZIE:: 1.	What is the speed and horse power of the revenue cutter Alert?
2.	When and where was she built?
3.	Who is the present owner of the Alert?
4.	For how long is the Alert hired by the Government, and at what rate per month?
5.	What is the name of the master of the Alert, and does he hold a master's certificate?
6.	If he holds a certificate, when and where was it obtained?
7.	Is the master of the Alert or any member of the crew a preventive officer?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	Speed, about ten knots; horse power, actual, 150; nominal, 24.
2.	South Bristol, Maine, 1880; rebuilt, North Sydney, 1907; new boiler and engine, 1911.
3.	W. N. McDonald.
4.	The Alert is hired for an indefinite period. Contract may be terminated by twelve months' notice of either party, $1,250 per month; the same as the Gladiator.
5.	Henry Joseph Lewis. Yes, British Board of Trade certificate.
6.	May 5, 1883. Liverpool, England.
7.	The master is acting as preventive officer of customs.


PURCHASES OF FLOUR.
Mr. ROBB:: 1.	Referring to the gift of one million bags of flour from Canada to the British Government, how many bags of such flour were purchased from each of the following firms, viz: Western Canada Flour Mills, Limited, Dominion Flour Mills, Limited, Lake of the Woods Milling Company, Maple Leaf Milling Company, Limited, St. Lawrence Flour Mills Company, Limited and Ogilvie Flour Mills, Limited?
2.	What was the price paid per bag?
3.	Did the price include cost of cover? if not, what was cost of cover per bag?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Western Canada Flour Mills, Ltd.,
125,000	bags; Dominion Flour Mills, Ltd.,

20.000	bags; Lake of the Woods Milling Co.,
100.000	bags; Maple Leaf Milling Co., Ltd.,
415.000	bags; St. Lawrence Flour Mills Co., Ltd., 40,000 bags; Ogilvie Flour Mills Ltd.,
300.000	bags.
2.	$2.80 per bag.
3.	Yes.


CHESLET PUBLIC BUILDING.
Mr. TRUAX:: 1.	How long was Wm. Halliday caretaker of the Chesley public building?
2.	What amount has he received for his services to date"?
3.	What amount was paid Samuel Wright for erecting a fence around the Chesley public building?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Mr. William Halliday was appointed clerk of works to supervise the construction of the public building at Chesley on 15th May, 1912, and served in that capacity until the building was fully completed and occupied in June, 1914.
2.	Services for 26 months at $80, $2,080.
3.	S. Wright was paid $486 for fence, and for other small items $25: $511.


AMHERST CUSTOM HOUSE.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What were the receipts of the Amherst, N.S., custom house, for each of the last three fiscal years?
2.	How many employees have been engaged during those years, and what has been their respective salaries?
3.	What were the receipts of this office, for each of the three years previous to 1912, and what was the number of employees engaged during these years, and the remuneration paid to each?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	1911-12, $93,061.22; 1912-13, $141,373.20; 1913-14, $139,447.78.
2.	Officers employed, 1911-12:	B. W.
Baker, $1,500; R. Lusby, $750; D. C. McLeod, $1,000 from February 1, 1912; L. J. Moffatt, $1,000; C. E. Ratcliford, $1,100 Mrs. Ratchford, 2 weeks during leave of officer L. J. Moffatt, $8. Officers employed, 1912-13:	B. W. Baker, $1,500; R. Lusby,
$750; L. J. Moffatt, $1,000; D. C. McLeod, $1,000; N. S. Sanford, $1,000, from August 19, 1912; C. E. Ratchford, $1,300.


LETHBRIDGE FIELD BATTERY.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Were tenders publicly invited for the contract for supplies and equipment for the field battery now being trained at Lethbridge?
2.	Were all merchants in the city given an opportunity to tender?


Mr. HAZEN:: My information is that
this question was answered on a previous occasion.
Question dropped.


TUFTS COVE DRY DOCK.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Was a boat hired in connection with the work of taking borings, etc., for the dry dock at Tufts Cove, Dartmouth, N.S.? If so, from whom?
2.	What was paid per day for the said boat, and for how many days was the same in the service of the Government?
3.	On what date were the said services discontinued ?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes, from E. F. Williams.
2.	50 cents per day for 151 days.
3.	June 20, 1914.
DREDGE No 7.


Mr. PROULX:: 1.	What was the cost of maintenance, and the particulars thereof, of dredge No. 7, for the calendar year 1914?
2.	What amount was paid the Southern Salvage Company for attending dredge No. 7, and supplying of coal, etc.?
3.	What amount was paid the Southern_Sal-vage Company during the calendar year 1914, on account of the Steamboat Coast Guard?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Cost of operating and maintaining dredge P.W.D. No. 7 in calendar year 1914: wages, $6,007.01; provisions, $1, 834.98; fuel, $3,297.93; stores and equipment, $1,544.42; contingencies, $36.02; water, $167.85; pilotage and towage,-*; wharfage, $124.84; rental of tugs, $8,085; repairs, $13,504.78; total, $54,602.83.
2.	Paid Southern Salvage Co., for attending dredge P.W.D. No. 7, calendar year, 1914, $8,085. Paid Southern Salvage Co., for supplying coal, etc., calendar year- 1914, $4,465.08.
3.	$2,424.10.


HALIFAX CHARTERED STEAMBOATS.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	What steamboats has the Government, or any department of the Government, had under charter at Halifax, N.S., during the years 1913, 1914, 1915, and who are the owners thereof?
2.	What service did such boats perform and how much per day is being paid respectively, to each?
3.	What is the total amount paid or payable to date for each of such boats so chartered?
4.	Were any of such steamboats chartered by any agents? If so, what fees or commissions were paid such agents in each case respectively ?
5.	What is the total amount paid or payable to date for such boat so chartered for maintenance, supplies and wages, respectively?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Steamer Isaac N. Veasey, owner, Clarence A. Larder, New Ross, N.S.; employed for seven days in 1914. Steamer Noreen, owner, A. B. Crosby, Halifax, N.S.; employed for 6 days in September, 1914, and from the 18th September, 1914, to date.
2.	The Isaac N. Veasey was employed carrying sand to the salvages where the department was constructing a new fog alarm station and was paid at the rate of $40 per day.
The Noreen is employed in transporting employees and materials between the agency at Dartmouth and Halifax. The Noreen was paid $25 per day for six days in September, 1914, and $20 per day for the balance of the time.
3.	Amounts paid to the 24th March, 1915, for Isaac N. Veasey, $280, Noreen, $4,191.
4.	No.
5.	Amounts paid or payaible to 24th March, 1915, for Noreen, charter $20 per day, $3,200 ; 6 days at $25, $150; coal and water, $526; wages of 1 man furnished by department, $315; total, $4,191. Crew of Noreen paid by owners. Maintenance and wages Isaac N. Veasey, paid by owner.


LAUZON DRY DOCK BOILERS.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Did the Government, through the Department of Public Works, during the month of October last, call for tenders for the construction of three steam boilers to be used at the Bassin de Lauzon, P.Q. ?
2.	If so, which tender was accepted, from whom, and at what price?
3.	If not, why were the tenders called for returned to the tenderers with the cheques they gave as guarantee?
4.	Was the construction of such boilers subsequently accorded to a person or a company, of London, Ontario?
5.	If so, when were the tenders called for, what is the name of each tenderer, the price of each tender, and for what price was the construction of the said boilers accorded?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Tenders were called for the renewal of .boilers at the Lauzon dry dock, in August last.
2.	Tender accepted was from Messrs. E. Leonard & Sons, Ltd., of Montreal, at $5,299.
3.	Answered 'by No. 2.
4.	The headquarters and works of Messrs. E. Leonard & Sons, Ltd., are at London, Ont., but tender was submitted by the Montreal agency.
5.	Tenders were called for on August 8, to be received until September 2, 1914: E. Leonard & Sons, $5,299; The Jen ekes Machine Company, Limited, $5,986; La Com-
1G48

pagnie de Machinerie Mercier, $6,865; H. L. Peiler & Co., $8,535; The John McDougall Caledonian Iron Works Co., Ltd., $3,065 (irregular). Tender of Messrs E. Leonard & Sons, Ltd., for $5,299 accepted.


ST. LAMBERT POST OFFICE.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	Have repairs been made to the St. Lambert post office?
2.	Were tenders called for, or else, if the work was done by the day, by whom was the work done?
3.	What is the amount paid for such repairs?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	A tender was received from Mr. Joseph Church, of St. Lambert, to paint all interior and exterior joiners work, plastered walls and ceilings on ground and first floors, oil and shellac hardwood floors, etc., for the sum of $1,235, which was accepted.
3.	$1,235 for painting, and $38.95 to A. Gravel for petty alterations.


HAWKESBURY-GRENVILLE BRIDGE.
Mar. PROULX:: 1.	To whom did the Department of Public Works allot the contract for the substructure of the proposed interprovincial bridge over the Ottawa river between Hawkesbury and Grenville?
2.	What is the contract price?
3.	What is the time limit fixed by the contract for the completion of the said work?
4.	Have the contractors been requested by the department last summer or last fall not to proceed with the work?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	The contract has not yet been awarded.
2,	3 and 4. Answered by No. 1.


EMPLOYMENT OF WM. McNEIL.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Is William McNeil, formerly of Pictou county, employed in the Customs Department? If so, in what capacity?
2.	What are his duties and where does he perform them?
3.	What is his salary?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	Yes. Clerk in the inside service.
2.	Clerical work. Statistical Branch, Ottawa.
3.	$900. Mr. McNeil is at present absent on leave.


RESTIGOUCHE DREDGING.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	What is the total amount of dredging performed by the Department of Public Works or or. its account at Restigouche, Quebec?
2.	What has been the cost by year of this work?
3.	Is the work of dredging completed there?

4.	Was any other work done by the department at that place? If so, what was it, and what did it cost?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	64,867 cubic yards.
2.	1907-08,	$2,207.24;	1908-09,	$4,529.94;
1909-10, nil; 1910-11, nil; 1911-12, nil; 1912-13, $17,598.12;	1913-14, nil; 1914-15,

3.	When the dredging ceased, the needs of the place up to that time had been met.
4.	No.


F. W. R. COLCLEUGH.
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	(a) Was F. W. M. Colcleugh appointed
returning officer in the electoral district of Selkirk, province of Manitoba, in the elections ot 1911?	(b) If so, by whom was he recommended ?
2.	Was the said Colcleugh appointed to a position in the Department of Indian Affairs since the date of said election? If so, to what position, at what salary, and by whom was he recommended ?
3.	Does he still hold that or any other position in the service of the Dominion Government?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	(a) Yes; (b) No information.
2.	Appointed to the position of Indian ag nt for the Clandeboye agency at a salary of $1,200 per year. The department is not awaie by whom he was recommended.
3.	He is still Indian agent for the Clandeboye agency.


CARDIGAN-ANNANDALE MAID CONTRACT,
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	How many tenders were received by the Post Office Department during the year 1914 lor carrying the mails between Cardigan and Annandale, P.E.I. ?
2.	What was the amount of each tender, and who were the tenderers?
3.	Why was the lowest or second lowest tender not accepted?
4.	Was the highest tenderer asked to reduce his tender? If so, why?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Four.
2.	John E. Shepherd, two tenders, one at $700, the other at $850; Neil H. Morrison, at $848; Daniel J. McLellan at $1,000.
3	and 4. The lowest tender was passed over because the person submitting it had when acting as courier in the same district given a very unsatisfactory service. The other two tenderers were given an opportunity to submit lower offers. Neil H. Morrison reduced his tender from $848 to $838, and Daniel J. McLellan reduced from $1,000 to $830. The contract was awarded to Mr. McLellan at $830.


CUMBERLAND RURAL MAIL.
Mr. RHODES:: 1.	How many rural mail delivery routes have been established in Cumberland county, N.S.?
2.	What are their names, the length of each, and the date when each was put into operation?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Twenty-one.
2.
Name of Route.	Mileage.	Date of Inauguration.Amherst No. 1	41	August 1, 1910.Amherst No. 2	22	September 1, 1911, extended % mile to 22%, P.R.T., October 1, 1914.Amherst No. 3	28	July 1, 1914.Athol No. 1	13	October 1, 1911, extended 7 miles to 20 miles, P.R.T., January 15, 1914.East Southampton No. 1	6	August 1, 1912.Fort Lawrence No. 1	61	May 1, 1909.Greenville Station No. 1	13	December 15, 1914.Halfway River Station No. 1. . ..	16	July 1, 1910, extended 2 miles to 18 miles, P.R.T., March 1, 1913.Nappan Station No. 1	13	November 16, 1914.Nappan Station No. 2	14	November 16, 1914.Oxford No. 1	17	December 1, 1914.Oxford No. 2	12	December 15, 1914.Oxford No. 3	9 & 111	November 16, 1914.Parrsboro No. 1	23	December 8, 1913.Port Howe No. 1	13	December 1, 1914.Port Howe No. 2	16	October 18, 1914.Pugwash No. 1	28	April 1, 1914.River Hebert, West Side No. 1. . .	12	February 1, 1913.River Hebert, West Side, No. 2. . .	18	October 1, 1913.Shinimecas Bridge No. 1	20	April 1, 1914.Tidnish River No. 1	24	October 1, 1914.


IMPORTS OP BINDERS.
Mr. W. H. SHARPE:: 1.	What was the total importation of 7 and 8-foot binders from the United States in the year 1911, at the ,port of Winnipeg, and the average value on which duty was collected?
2.	What was the total amount of duty collected on some, and the average amount per binder?
3.	What was the price of the International Harvester Company's 7 and 8-foot binders in the United States, as sold to dealers only, according to price lists in 1911 and 1914?
4.	What was the total importation of 7 and 8-foot binders from the United States in the year 1914, at the port of Winnipeg, and the average value on which duty was collected?
5.	On what prices did the John Deere Plough Company pay duty on 7 and 8-foot binders at the port of Winnipeg in 1913?
6.	Were these entries at customs made at prices below the fair market value of the binders, and in violation of the customs laws?
7.	What was the selling price of these binders as sold to dealers only in the United States in 1913?
8.	What was the selling price of 7 and 8-foot binders made by other manufacturers, and sold to dealers only in the United States in 1913?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	Number of harvesters, self-binding, all sizes, entered through port of Winnipeg, 104
year 1911, 208. Total value, $22,558. Average value, $108.40 each. In the total number above stated are probably included harvesters smaller than 7 and 8-foot, but the number of each cannot be given from the records in the Customs Department, as invoices are retained in the department for only three years.
2.	Total amount of duty collected on said binders, $3,947.65; average, $18.98 each.
3.	Selling prices of International Harvester Company's binders to dealers in the United States: 7-ft. binder with bundle carrier without tongue truck, 1911, $105; 1914, $100.50.	8-ft. binder with bundle carrier
without tongue truck, 1911, $107.50; 1914, $103.
4.	Seven- and eight-foot harvesters entered for consumption through the port of Winnipeg in the year 1914: total number 193; value, $19,462 (including the value of the bundle carrier); average value as entered, $100.84 each. Total duty collected thereon, $2,516.07; average, $13.04 each.
5.	Duty was paid by John Deere Plough Company, Winnipeg, on following values during 1913: 7-ft. binder with bundle carrier without tongue itruck, $78.22 ; 8-ft. bind-



er with bundle carrier without tongue truck, $80,85.
6.	These entries by John Deere Plough Company, Winnipeg, were made at prices much below the fair market value for home consumption and were therefore in violation of the customs laws.
7.	Selling prices to dealers of John Deere binders in the United States during 1913:
7-	ft. binder with bundle carrier without tongue truck, $103; 8-ft. binder with bundle carrier without tongue truck, $105.50.
8.	Selling prices for home consumption of
International Harvester Company's binders to dealers during 1913:	7-ft. binder with
bundle carrier without tongue truck, $100.25;
8-	ft. binder with bundle carrier without tongue truck, $102,75.


WAR SUPPLIES-HOUSEWIVES.
Mr. PEOULX:: 1.	Did the Department of Militia purchase any soldiers' housewives from Mr. Stewart McClenaghan, or the Two Macs Company, of Ottawa? If so, what quantity, and at what price?
2.	Did the Department purchase any soldiers, housewives from any other party in the city of Ottawa? If so, from whom, what was the price paid, and what was the quantity purchased?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Two Macs (or Stewart McClenaghan),
100,000	at 53J cents each complete.
2.	May Court Club, 1,000 at 53J cents each complete; United Relief Committee, 2,000 at 53J cents each complete.


AMERICAN FISHING VESSELS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Has a new regulation been made permitting American fishing vessels to sell and re-ship their fares in the ports of British Columbia?
2.	If so, what date did the regulation come into force?
3.	Does the regulation apply to vessels either wholly or partially driven by gasoline or steam?
4.	Does the regulation apply to the Eastern Coast of Canada?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	On the 8th November, 1897, an Order in Council was passed providing that-
Foreigners of foreign corporations bringing fresh fish in American bottoms to any port in British Columbia shall be permitted to land such fresh fish at such port, without payment of duties, and tranship the same in bond to any part of the United States of America, under such rules or regulations and conditions as the Minister of Customs may determine.
A further Order in Council was passed on the 29th day of January, 1898, viz.:

That until the Sth May, 1898, foreigners or foreign corporations bringing fresh fish in
[Mr. J. D. Reid.)
American bottoms to any port in British Columbia shall be permitted to purchase supplies at any port in the said province of British Columbia, under such rules or regulations and conditions as the Minister of Customs may determine.
The provisions of these Orders in Council have been renewed from time to time, and are in force now for 1915 as to ports in British Columbia, with additional provisions as follows:
Orders in Council dated March 9, 1915.
During the present calendar year (1915) foreigners or foreign corporations bringing fresh fish in vessels registered in the United States of America to any part in British Columbia shall be permitted to land fresh fish at such port without payment of duties and tranship the same in bond to any port in the United States, or to sell such fish in bond to such local dealer or dealers as may be properly and duly licensed therefor, under the regulations and conditions hereinafter mentioned, which dealer or dealers shall export to the same in compliance with the bonding requirements (without the right, however, in either instance to sell in Canada for consumption therein, or otherwise except in bond, any of such fresh fish so landed) ; and such foreigners and foreign corporations bringing fresh fish in vessels registered in the United States of America to any port in British Columbia, shall be permitted to purchase supplies, and ship crews for such vessels, at any port in the said province of British Columbia, the whole under such regulations and conditions as the Minister of' Customs may determine.
These Orders in Council are not based on the payment of any license fee by fishing vessels.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	These regulations apply to fishing vessels registered in the United States, irrespective of any question as to motive power.
4.	These regulations apply only to the western coast of Canada. The regulations applying to the eastern coast of Canada are framed under the authority of Section 3, Chapter 47, R.S.C., 1906. This section applies only to United States fishing vessels entering ports on the Atlantic Coast of Canada.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Has an Order in Council been passed allowing American fishing vessels to buy bait and supplies, and land fares for transhipment at the Port of Prince Rupert, B.C., or other Pacific ports, by paying a license fee for less an amount than that paid in similar circumstances on the Atlantic coast?


Mr. J. D. REID:: See answer to last preceding question.


BONDED WAREHOUSES, CAPE BRETON.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeKENZIE:
1.	How many bonded warehouses" ""'are rented by the Customs Department in the riding of North Cape Breton and Victoria?

2.	From whom rented, for what period, and at what rental?
Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	None. The examining warehouse at North Sydney, rented from W. S. Thompson, is used for storage of express goods, unclaimed goods and freight packages for examination. It is not classed as a bonded warehouse.
2.	Nil.


PUBLIC WORKS AT CONTRECOEUR.
Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	What was the cost of construction ot C isse below the parish of Contrecoeur, county of Chambly VercMres, province of Quebec?
2.	What was the cost of the bridge at the same place?
3.	Were tenders asked for this work?
4.	If so, who tendered?
5.	What was the amount of each tender?
6.	Who performed this work?
7.	Under whose superintendence was this work executed?
8.	To whom was the cost of this work paid?
9.	By whom were the accounts verified?
10.	Under what law were these works done?
11.	Did the municipality of the parish of Contrecoeur contribute or advance an amount for these works? If so, what amount?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	$2,029.55 was the cost of the protection work paid for by the department at Contrecoeur during the present fiscal year.
2.	No bridge constructed, but the cost of a culvert of 6 feet diameter is included in the above.
3.	4 and 5. No.
6.	Municipality of Contrecoeur.
7.	Ernest Lavigne. Accounts were certified by Mr. J. L. Michaud, district engineer of Montreal.
8.	Answered by No. 11.
9.	Answered by No. 7.
10.	No particular law is required to build protection works.
11.	Municipality paid for this work and on the production of duly certified receipts the amount above stated was paid to them by the department.


MONTREAL POSTAL STATION A
Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	Has the Department of Public Works recently granted the contract for the supply of furnishings and fixtures for postal station A at Montreal?
2.	Were tenders called for that contract?
3.	Who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender?
4.	To whom was the contract awarded, and at what price?
104*


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	No.	,
2.	Tenders now being invited.
3 and 4. Answered by No. 1.


WOODS AND CANADIAN BUILDINGS.
Mr. SAM SHARPE:: 1.	Was the following resolution passed by the Public Accounts Committee in May, 1910, viz:
" Moved by Mr. Sharpe, seconded by Mr. Carvell, that whereas the expense to the Government during the last year for lighting the Woods and Canadian buildings amounted to $9,465.91, paid to the Imperial Realty Company, which company is not an electrical lighting company; and whereas the city of Ottawa has a standard schedule of prices whereby the lighting would cost only $5,040 or less, thereby effecting an annual saving to the country of $4,425.91 or more; therefore this committee desires to urge upon the Minister of Public Works and the Government the desirability of cancelling the present arrangement and recovering the excess unjustly paid to the Imperial Realty Company, and giving the city of Ottawa or some other company the contract at lower rates; and that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the Minister of Public Works?
2.	If so, did the then Government take any steps to recover the moneys referred to as unjustly paid to the Imperial Realty Company?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes, on 22nd October, 1910, a statement of the case and the departmental file were submitted to the Department of Justice for an opinion as to what action could be taken to recover the difference between the amounts paid by the Department of Public Works to Mr. Woods and the amounts paid by Mr. Woods to the Municipal or Consumers' Electric Company for lighting the Woods and Canadian buildings, and on 28th August, 1911, the Deputy Minister of Justice informed the department that:
I cannot find anything in the papers to indicate that Mr. Woods undertook to light the building for the Government at cost price, and in the absence of any agreement to do the lighting at cost price, it appears to me that Mr. Woods is entitled to retain any profit he made under the contract.
Under the circumstances, no action was taken to recover from Mr. Woods or the Imperial Realty Company.


FENIAN RAID BOUNTIES.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How much has been paid to date by the Government, or any department thereof, to Mr. G. A. R. Rowlings, of Sydney, N.S., for services in connection with the administration of the Fenian Volunteer Bounty Act? .
2.	What is the total cost to date of the administering of said Act?
3.	How many claims for the said bounty are still unpaid?


Major General HUGHES:: 1.	$3,615.
2.	$8,267.19.
3.	4,571. including 3,173 disallowed claims.



SUPPLY OP AMMUNITION.


Mr. BOURASSA:: 
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Because he was himself engaged in the fishing business in the district that was under his jurisdiction. He was dismissed following the recommendation of the department.
3.	$350 per annum.
4.	James Kennedy, $150 per annum.


Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Has Alexandre Blais, of the oity of Lfrvis, a customs officer at Bradore Bay, been dismissed from his position?
2.	If so, when was he so dismissed, why, and at whose request?
3.	What was Alexandre Blais' salary?
4.	By whom was Alexandre Blais replaced?
5.	What is the salary or the salaries of the person or persons replacing him?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	The services of Alexandre Blais were dispensed with.
2.	His services were dispensed with from December 31, 1914, by the Minister of Customs, under terms of his letter of appointment.
3.	$500 per year.

4	and 5. There has been no appointment to the position.


Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	Is Arthur Lesiem still in the employ of the Public Works Department at Montreal?
2.	If so. what was the amount paid to him for January, 1914?
3.	What was the amount paid to him for January, 1915?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	No.
2.	$60 for January, 1914.
3.	$27.13 for January, 1915.


Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	Is Louis Bedard still in the employ of the Public Works Department at Montreal.
2.	If not, when was he dismissed, or did he resign?
3.	Was he replaced by any one?
If so, by whom, and on whose recommendation?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	No.
2.	Was dismissed on 26th January, 1915.
3.	Replaced by Mr. A. Gauthier, on instructions from the Minister of Public Works.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. McKenzie: For a copy of all letters and telegrams, or any other written communications which passed between the Minister of Railways and Canals and J. C. Douglas, Esq., M.P.P., of Ulace Bay, Nova Scotia, between the 1st of January and the last of December, 1914, and of all letters and telegrams between the Minister of Customs and Public Works, and the Postmaster General, and the said J. C. Douglas during the above period, in respect to the dismissal, appointment or restoration to office of Government officials.
Mr. Sam Sharpe: For a copy of all letters, petitions, resolutions and other documents asking the Government to take measures to so amend the Senate as to bring it into harmony with the principles of popular Government.
Mr. A. W. Chisholm: For a copy of all papers, documents, telegrams, petitions and correspondence of all kinds in the possession of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, in any way referring to charges against Alexander McDonald, fishery overseer, at Seaside, Inverness county, Nova Scotia.
Mr, Bourassa: For a copy of all documents letters, telegrams, testimonials, reports, etc., relating to the claim of TSlesphore Paradis, of the city of Levis, arising from the burning of his wharf and mills which were set on fire by a locomotive of the Intercolonial railway.
Mr. Bourassa: For a copy of all documents letters, telegrams, reports, etc., relating to the dismissal of Alexandre Blais, of the city of L&vis, from the position of customs officer at Bradore Bay, and the appointment of his successor or successors.
Mr. Bourassa: For a copy of all documents letters, telegrams, reports, etc., relating to the dismissal of Alexandre Blais, of the city of

LSvis, from the position of fisheries officer, and the appointment of his successor or successors.
Mr. Sinclair: For a copy of all correspondence, complaints, evidence, reports and other papers and documents in the possession of the Department of Public Works or any other Department of the Government, relating to complaints and charges against one Captain Thos. Brown in connection with the operations of the dredge Mudlark in British Columbia; and also of all correspondence and telegrams that passed between any person or persons in British Columbia and the Minister of Public Works during the years 1913 and 1914 to this date, relating to appointments and dismissals of officers or employees on board said dredger Mudlark.
Mr. Law: For a copy of all papers, accounts, vouchers, documents, etc., in connection with repairs to Coffin's Island Light, Nova Scotia, in the calendar year 1914.
Mr. A. K. Maclean: For a copy of all papers, letters, documents, Orders in Council, etc., in reference to the dismissal of Joseph C. Lavers and John Connolly of the Customs Service at Halifax, N.S.
Mr. Bureau: For a copy of all correspondence, despatches, telegrams, petitions, recommendations, or any documents whatsoever exchanged between the Minister of Public Works and any of his officers in connection with the construction of public buildings at Three Rivers, from the 1st January', 1913, to the present date.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. T. White (Minister of Finance), Bill No. 95, respecting certain issues of Dominion Notes, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
On the preamble:
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: I should like to ask a question with respect to the last clause of the preamble. After exhausting all the gold reserve required against the $50,000,000 note issue which was authorized by the Dominion Notes Aot of 1914, what amount roughly speaking will be available as gold reserve, under the requirements of the same Act, in respect to the note issue of $10,000,000 which this Bill is to confirm?


William Thomas White: I do not quite understand
my hon. friend's question. I made the statement when the resolutions were under discussion that the percentage of gold held against Dominion notes, not otherwise secured, was 65 per cent.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How much of that was available as against the note issue which is now being confirmed. What was the amount of it? Sixty per cent, odd, is applicable to the entire issue, authorized and not authorized. After fully complying with
the requirements of the Dominion Act respecting the $50,000,000 authorized, what balance will be left applicable as security to the unauthorized issue? Will it be 11 per cent, or 15 per cent, or what will it be?


William Thomas White: I think I understand my
hon. friend's question, although I am not certain that I do. The Dominion Notes Act, as amended in August of last year, provided for an issue of $50,000,000, 25 per cent secured by gold. That gave an additional issue of $15,000,000 of Dominion notes. These notes were duly issued and everything up to that time was regular and in accordance with the Dominion Notes Act as amended in August last. The sum of $10,000,000 was issued without security.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Perhaps I should have confined my question to that; I did really intend to.


William Thomas White: I stated the other day that we had accumulated $1,200,000 of gold since as against that $10,000,000. That would be 12 per cent.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is what I wanted to know.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think the correspondence discloses that these advances, made to the two companies, were to be refunded some time in April. Does my hon.-friend expect that the contract will be carried out by the companies?


William Thomas White: It may be necessary-although that has not been under negotiation -to renew the agreement, but such renewal would not be inconsistent with this legislation. The maturities are April 1 in each case.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


WAR APPROPRIATION BILL.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 87, for granting to His Majesty aid for military and naval de-12 noon fence-Sir Robert Borden-read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
On section 1-short title:
Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend the Minister for Naval Defence (Mr. Hazen) was to give, upon this Bill, some information in regard to our naval expenditure and our naval force.


John Douglas Hazen: My right hon. friend may remember that when my Naval Estimates were before the House on Saturday I said that I would be prepared to give a statement regarding naval expenditures in connection with the war appropriation of last year, some information as to our expenditures during the continuance of the war, and a statement in regard to what the Naval Department has been doing since the outbreak of the war. I may say to the-members of the committee that since the outbreak of the war, up to the 1st of February, the Naval Department has spent, chargeable against the war appropriation, the sum of $3,091,608.67. My figures are complete only up to the 1st of February, but I would estimate that for February and March our expenditures would be $700,000, making a total expenditure for the period of eight months of $3,791,608.67. The amount that we have spent is divided under several heads, as follows:
Statement of Expenditure on Account of War from August 4, 1914, to January 31, 1915.
War (including purchase of submarines)	$2,695,096	22
Naval Service (Halifax and
Esquimau dockyards)	
215,536	86Fisheries protection service and Hydrographic surveys (vessels used as auxiliaries to Canadian fleet)	
180,975	59

Estimated for February and
March	 700,000.000
Estimated expenditure to March
31	$3,791,608 67
I have the details in connection with the expenditures under these different heads, but perhaps it is not necessary that I should go into them now. As a matter of fact, when my Naval Estimates were before the House on Saturday, in answer to questions by hon. gentlemen opposite, I gave a statement of the expenditures upon the Niobe, the Rainbow and the submarines for wages and other items, and it may not be necessary to take up the time of the committee by presenting those details at the present time. For the future, taking the period of 12 months from the 1st of April next, my estimate is that in round figures we will expend $3,000,000 out of any war vote which passes Parliament. My estimate is made up in this way:
H.M.C.S. Niobe	$ 726,125
H.M.C.S. Rainbow	 366,450
Submarines CC 1 and CC 2.. ..	170,075
Submarine Depot Esquimalt ..	. .	38,800
Halifax Dockyard, civil employees..	257,500

Esquimalt Dockyard, civil emr
ployees	 173,350
H.M.C.S. Shearwater	(depot)..	. .	207,425
H.M.C.S. Diana (depot)	 264,975
Atlantic defences	 386,000
Pacific defences	 229,500
General account; Pension contributions to Imperial navy, Separation Allowance and other miscellaneous expenses	 179,800

I may explain that certain expenditures at Esiquimalt are charged up to the name Shearwater, while at Halifax certain charges at the dockyard are charged to what is called Diana. This $3,000,000 is only an estimate and it may vary one way or the other according to the progress of the war. If we find it necessary for any purpose to charter other vessels or to make use of other vessels in connection with any of the services on the Atlantic and on the Pacific, the amount would be augmented to that extent. This is the nearest estimate we can make at the present time.
It will be interesting to the House if I give a statement in a general way of the work that has been carried on by the Naval Department since the outbreak of war.
Preparations having previously been made to meet all contingencies which could be foreseen, it was only necessary to carry out or expand these preparations when war appeared imminent.
At that time the Rainbow had been commissioned for patrol duty in the Behring Sea and was therefore ready for immediate service, whilst the Niobe was laid up at Halifax with a care and maintenance crew on board, which ensured her being kept in such a condition as would enable her to be placed in commission at short notice. On the declaration of war the Niobe and the Rainbow and the officers and men serving in them, were placed at the disposal of the Admiralty. Arrangements were immediately made to commission the Niobe and to complete her crew to full sea-going requirements. This was done partly by the transfer of the Imperial officers and men of the sloops Algerine and Shearwater, which, owing to their small fighting value had been ordered by the Admiralty to pay off at Esquimalt, and partly by the inclusion of 100 Newfoundland Naval Reserve men; the remainder of the crew being recruited from men who had served in the British Navy and were resident in the Dominion. A large number of these volunteered their services and as many as necessary were

entered for service during the period of the war. As soon as she was ready the Niobe joined the squadron under the command of the Rear Admiral Commanding the North American -Station, in which she has been doing duty ever since. The Rainbow was despatched south from Esquimalt to guard the trade routes and protect the sloops Algerine and Shearwater which were proceeding north. These two vessels arrived safely at Esquimalt and since that time the Rainbow has been continuously employed in the protection of trade and other duties in the North Pacific, and on the coast of British Columbia, being under the orders of the Imperial senior naval officer on that station.
The Dominion Government on the out- . break of war purchased two submarines which were building at Seattle for the Chilean Government. The crews were recruited from officers and men in the Dominion, the Government being fortunate in this respect in obtaining the services of two retired officers of the Royal Navy who had had previous experience in submarines. These vessels also were placed at the disposal of the Admiralty.
Permission was also obtained from the Admiralty to use the Shearwater as a depot ship for the submarines. These tnree vessels have all been actively employed in the defence of the British Columbian coast.
Naval depots have been established at Halifax and Esquimalt, in the former place for the -accommodation of supernumerary ratings awaiting draft, and in the latter for the training of the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve officers and men. A large number of other vessels, both Governmental and private, -are being utilized in connection with the naval defence of the coasts. They are being employed on the various services hereinafter specified.
The icebreaker, "Earl Grey," on her sale to the Russian Government, was transferred to this department to be sent to Archangel.
A crew of naval ratings was provided and the vessel was successfully navigated to her destination, the voyage of 3,000 miles being completed in 14 days. On arrival at Archangel she was turned over to the Russian authorities. The crew returned by ordinary -steamer.
As to the personnel; recruiting has been actively carried on to complete the "Niobe's" crew as previously stated and to obtain the requisite crews for the other vessels employed on subsidiary duties, prefer-'
ence being given to men with previous naval experience. The naval volunteers, which were established just previous to the outbreak of war, developed largely in the West, where some 400 officers and men are enrolled. These volunteers have done good service both ashore and afloat, a considerable number having served continuously in the "Rainbow" since the outbreak of hostilities, whilst others are in H.M.S. "Newcastle" and various vessels at Esquimalt, including the submarines and their parent ship the "Shearwater." Their training is being continuously carried on. The department has acted as recruiting agent for the Admiralty. A large number of Imperial service officers and men have been reached and arrangements made for their transportation from all parts of the Dominion to England.
As to harbour defence; all details connected with naval defence at defended ports are undertaken by this department. At certain ports in Canada: Halifax, Quebec and Esquimalt, an examination service was instituted before the outbreak of war and has been uninterruptedly continued. This is for the purpose of ensuring that no vessel with hostile intent shall enter the harbour and also to facilitate the ordinary flow of commercial ships. To this end every vessel entering the harbour is boarded outside the port and her papers, crew, etc., examined. If satisfactory she is allowed to proceed; otherwise, she is detained for further examination.
The mine sweeping was undertaken at the request of and after consultation with the Admiralty. At certain ports a mine-sweeping flotilla is provided. This consists of comparatively small vessels whose duty it is to keep the approaches to the harbour clear of enemy's mines. This entails daily operations on their part.
A number of vessels are employed on patrol duty on different parts of the coast, including the Gulf of St. Lawrence and Bay of Fundy. They are charged with the duty of keeping watch for hostile craft of all sorts.
In reference to wireless telegraphy and censorship it was found necessary at the beginning of the war to close a large number of stations. On the west coast the situation having now relaxed they have all been re-opened. In conformity with the procedure in other parts of the Empire, a censorship is imposed on all wireless telegraph messages emanating there-from.
All enemy merchant ships were ordered

to be detained on tbe outbreak of war, tbe arrangement for this being concluded with ' the Customs Department. The only German ship in Canadian harbours was the barque "Bellas" which was seized at Ri-mouski and has since been condemned in the prize court. The Austrian steamer "Ida" was seized also, but subsequently released under the days of grace allowed. Many important questions regarding contraband and neutral commerce are continually arising which indirectly affect the department and are dealt with accordingly.
As to coast defences; at certain places guns have been mounted and manned by naval volunteers; whilst in other places protection has been prepared by the provision of motor torpedo boats and mines prepared for laying in case of emergency. These operations also were carried out largely by naval volunteers.
A system for the collection and distribution of naval intelligence has been organized, acting in concert with the Imperial authorities.
In connection with the stores branch for H. M. C. ships and dockyards, the organization and systems undeT which the work of this branch at headquarters and at the dockyards is performed, had been maintained in full force as far as possible before the outbreak of war. While the ships were manned by reduced crews, it had not been considered either necessary or advisable to maintain in the dockyards the full stock of stores required when ships were in full commission. When affairs assumed a threatening aspect in the last week of July, steps were immediately taken to *supole-ment the stock of stores necessary to complete the ships for active service. H.M. C.S. Rainbow being already in commission and the state of affairs on the Pacific coast being critical, no efforts were spared to supply at the earliest possible date all stores required at Esquimalt. Large quantities of stores were transferred from Halifax dockyard and special purchases were made as necessary. All stores necessary for the commissioning of H.M.C.S. Niobe were obtained without delay. Clothing and equipment have been supplied for all entries of active service ratings and the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve. Suitable arrangements were made for the messing of shore parties in various localities. H.M.C.S. Earl Grey was fully stored for her voyage to Archangel, and suitable supply arrangements made for the submarines and all fleet auxiliaries.

The following statement shows the extent of the purchases made under the store vote from August 1 to date shown:
Headquarters orders, 508 in No.
(January 31)	$ 652,700 00
Halifax local purchase orders (January 14)	 67,046	00
Esquimalt local purchase orders
(January 15)	 122,808	00
Local purchases by and on behalf of ships, west coast (December
31)	 51,537	00
Local purchases by and on behalf of ships, east coast (December
31)	
43,471	00Orders and commissions placed with the Admiralty (January 31) aggregating	approximately.. . .	200,000	00Total	$1,137,562 00
The following statement shows the value of stores issued and received at the dockyards to December 31:
Receipts at Halifax dock yard, Aug-
1 to December 31	$270,622 77
Issues during same period	 252,014 99
Receipts at Esquimalt dock yard,
August l to December 31	 272,527 18
Issues during same period	 302,777 02
The figures in this statement do not include stores handled for the Imperial Government, nor purchases made direct by ships as in t'he case of fresh provisions.
As to supplies ito Imperial ships, offers were made to the Admiralty by cable to supply H.M. ships on Canadian stations with all provisions, clothing, and such naval stores as are readily obtainable in Canada. These have been accepted in so far as provisions are concerned, and partly as regards clothing and naval stores. Contracts for provisions were let by advertised tenders, and stocks are maintained at both dockyards to be drawn on as required. Fresh provision contracts for all ships have been arranged at Halifax and Esquimalt.
Not including fuel, fresh provisions, stores, the property of the Imperial Government in the custody of the naval store officers and direct purchases made by ships from Canadian firms, stores of the values shown below have been drawn from the dockyards.
Issues from Halifax dockyard to Imperial and allied ships, August 1 to November 30:
Admiralty	$24,473
Russian Government for the Earl Grey. 9^859 Issues from Esquimalt dockyard to Imperial and allied ships, August 1 to November 30:
Admiralty	$80,000
Japanese	19,800
Includes some fuel.
The next matter to be considered is fuel and oil for the fleet. At the outbreak of

war Imperial and Canadian stocks of Welsh steam coal were low. The purchase of five cargoes of suitable steam coal were made to provide for the requirements of the fleet till supplies from Admiralty sources were again available. Coaling operations on both coasts have been extensive and have necessitated special arrangements for extra accommodation and facilities. Supplies of oil fuel, and lubricating oil have been contracted for as necessary. The following amounts of coal have been handled to date:
At Esuuimalt-
Received.. ..	."	
45,826 tons.Issued	
40,628	"Total	
86,454	"
At Halifax-
Received approximately. .	80,000 tons.
Issued approximately. . .	68,000	"
Total approximately . . 148,000


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Will Canadian coal be
suitable for war purposes?


John Douglas Hazen: With the ships equipped
with the present boilers and machinery, Canadian coal is not considered suitable. The difficulty from the naval standpoint, as I understand, is that the use of Canadian coal shortens the life of the boilers. Also, it creates too much smoke. The use of the Nova Scotia coal with the present boilers and machinery would make so much smoke that the vessels could be detected by the enemy's vessels at a great distance away. That might be overcome, and I should think it could be overcome by using boilers of a different character. But, being British-built vessels, the Niobe and the Rainbow are equipped with the same sort of boilers as other British ships, and the use of Nova Scotia coal is not desirable.


John Howard Sinclair: Were any experiments made to test Canadian coal?


John Douglas Hazen: I am told it has been attempted, and that at one time, some years ago, Canadian coal was used in the Niobe, but the results were not satisfactory. I would not suggest that that is the fault of Canadian coal; it is due to the fact that the vessels have been equipped to burn Welsh and Scotch coal, and the Nova Scotia coal being of a different character they could not use it.


Wilfrid Laurier: What of the Pacific?
' Mr. HAZEN: They are sending coal from Great Britain to the Pacific. But at the outbreak of the war we had to purchase a
certain quantity in the United States, coal of a harder description than the bituminous coal found in British Columbia.
The charter of 33 vessels for various services has been arranged for from time to time in accordance with the requirements of the service.


Wilfrid Laurier: Where were
they obtained?	[DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: In Canada, from private
owners. Besides those that were chartered, we have vessels belonging to the different departments of Government which have been used.


Mr. GRAHAM:: How many?


John Douglas Hazen: Those chartered number
33. I will give a list of them.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The itemized
statement of vessels and naval stores will appear in Hansard, I suppose?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, I will hand this to
Hansard.
All empty Admiralty colliers ' returning to Europe from this side of the Atlantic have been provided with cargoes. These included two shiploads of gifts from Canada to the Belgian relief funds. Arrangements have been made for the transportation to England of large quantities of stores purchased by the Imperial Government in this country and the United States.
The naval store officers at both dockyards have arranged on behalf of the Admiralty for the receipt, custody, and issue as required of large quantities of supplies of all kinds for the Imperial ships on the Atlantic and Pacific stations.
Regarding the naval dockyards at Halifax and Esquimalt, the work has since the outbreak of the war increased considerably, necessitating an increase in the personnel of these establishments and considerable overtime and nightwork. Halifax is being used as the base for vessels of the North Atlantic fleet, and the dockyard is being used for carrying out repairs to these vessels, including the Niobe, and also those necessary to the various auxiliary vessels which have been employed on the defence examination service, etc. At the Esquimalt yard the expenditure and personnel have increased correspondingly. Repairs have been effected to the Niobe, the submarines, the Newcastle, and other vessels, and, on the whole, the work has been efficiently carried out, having regard to the facilities available.

Soon after the outbreak of war, I felt, after consultation with my officials, that it was necessary to have some officer of higher rank than we had at that time at Esquimalt. We were fortunate in securing the services of a retired rear admiral of the British navy, Admiral Storey, who was living in Canada at that time. We sent him to Esquimalt, and since then matters have progressed very smoothly. The numbers employed in the different dockyards are as follows: in the Esquimalt dockyard there were 258 in August, 428 in September, 370 in October, 362 in November, and 289 in December, 1914. At the Halifax dockyard: in August, 419; September, 405; October, 396; November, 369 and December 378.
I now wish to make a statement with the regard to the radio-telegraphic branch of the Naval Department, and its connection with the war. Immediately on the outhread of hostilities, the following thirteen stations on the east coast were closed down, and the essential parts of the apparatus removed: Father point, Clark city, Pictou, Cape Bear, Cape Sable, Partridge island, (St. John), North Sydney, Sable island, Cape Ray, Point Riche, Harrington, Grosse Isle, Grindstone island.
These stations were closed down for two reasons. It was felt that it would be very unwise to leave them in such condition that if they fell into the hands of the enemy they could be used for their own purposes. In consequence, therefore, of a plan formulated by the Interdepartmental Committee before the war broke out, immediately on the outbreak of hostilities these stations were visited by different vessels and practically dismantled. As the wireless messages sent out by these different stations often interfere with each other, it was felt, too, that the operations of the stations that were left would be more efficient than they would be if the others were also in commission. The following eastern stations remained open for naval and commercial work:	Montreal, Three Rivers,
Quebec, Belle Isle, Point Amour, Fame point, Heath point Cape Race, Camper-down, and the transatlantic stations at Glace bay, Louisburg and Newcastle, a military guard being provided for their protection, and the necessary censor staff to censor all messages handled. On August 7, the small station apparatus from North Sydney was transferred to the transatlantic station at Glace bay, and the station at Cape Ray temporarily reopened to provide emergency communication 
between the transatlantic station and the outside world, in case of interruption of communication between the station and Sydney. The anticipated situation modified itself, and Cape Ray station was again closed down on September 12, 1914.
One of the alarming reports we received- it came from the Admiralty-was to the effect that hostile merchantmen were making arrangements to attack the wireless station at Glace bay. We got into immediate communication with Halifax. The next day, when we were in council, someone came in and said-this was reported in a special edition of the Ottawa Journal- that Glace bay was being shelled. During the early stages of the war this was the kind of rumour which frequently reached us, from sources which might be regarded as fairly authentic.
On another occasion we received information from a lighthouse-keeper way down the St. Lawrence river that a German man-of-war had passed through Cabot strait and was heading towards the river. We got into communication with points along the river, and notified the collector of customs at the port of Quebec. I have reason to believe, however, that the steamer seen by the lighthouse-keeper was not a German vessel, but one of the British vessels which were in the vicinity at that time. The lighthouse-keepers have all been furnished with diagrams or silhouettes of the war vessels, and this lighthouse-keeper thought that the vessel he saw was a German warship.
The eight stations on the Great Lakes were kept in commission, the officers in charge of the same acting as censors, a militia or police guard being provided in each case to protect the property.
The folio whig seven stations on the west coast were closed down at the outbreak of hostilities: Prince Rupert (Digby island). Dead Tree point, Ikeda Head, Point Grey (Vancouver), Triangle island, Alert bay, Estevan point. The following three stations were kept open for naval purposes: Gonzales hill (Victoria), Cape Lazo, Pachena point; each of them provided with a censor staff and a military guard. Telegraphic communication with the Queen Charlotte islands being entirely cut off on the closing of the Dead Tree Point station, and the naval situation becoming less acute, the Digby island (Prince Rupert) and Dead Tree Point stations were re-opened on September 22, 1914. On October 11, 1914, Alert bay, Estevan point and Triangle island were reopened; on October 13, Ikeda Head, and

on October 16 Point Grey; since which time all the stations on the coast have been in commission 'and, subject to censorship and naval regulations, are handling all the business possible.
Under authority given by Order in Council No. 2030 of August 2nd, 1914, and by subsection 3, Regulation 4, Part 1, of the radiotelegraph regulations, instructions were issued to the holders of amateur radiotelegraph licenses to dismantle completely their stations and take down all aerial wires. These licensed stations immediately complied with this order. Arrangements were made with the Department of Militia and Defence and the Chief Commissioner of Dominion Police to have their officers in the different cities, towns and districts of the Dominion close down any stations remaining in operation, which resulted in the closing of numerous unlicensed stations throughout the country.
The authorities also maintain a close watch for stations suspected of being in operation; such cases are immediately reported to this department and immediate steps are taken to close them down and to investigate the circumstances surrounding their establishment.
My hon. friend asked me for a list of the vessels which we have had engaged from time to time. There have been engaged the following vessels of the fisheries protection service: Curlew, Malaspina, Constance, Gulnare, Valiant, Galiano, Newington, Petrel, Restless. Of the Fisheries Patrol service: Falcon, Heron, Wing, Egret, Plume. Of Marine and Fisheries: Lansdowne, Aberdeen, Bellechasse, Druid, Estevan, Lady Laurier, Quador, Stanley, Lady Grey. Of the Hydrographic Survey: Cartier, Acadia, Lillooet. Of Public Works, the Speedy; of Customs, the Arthur, which was formerly called the Margaret.
The following is a list of vessels under charter for defence: Advent, Halifax, N.S.; Baleine, Sydney, N.S.; Deliverance, Liverpool, N.S.; Legal Limit, Esquimalt, B.C.; Sable I., Halifax, N.S.; Uncle Sam, Halifax, N.S.; Viking, Oak Bay, B.C.; Gladiator, Narada, Premier, Midland, Scotsman, Shannon, Melaniope, King Malcolm. The following is a list of vessels hired for defence not under any charter: Barge No. 2, tug Cruiser, Christine, Gop'heT, Klondyke (barge), Pilot, Scow 7, Scow 8, Scow 1, Scow 2, tug Sin Mao, Tug, Barge A.D., Barge Rose de Lima, Barge Flora Carveth, Barge No. 5. I here submit a statement showing the rates at which these vessels
were engaged, the names of the owners, and everything of that sort, and shall be glad to give the information to the House, if desired.
I would take this opportunity of saying that we had placed at our disposal by private owners, vessels that have been of very great use to us. Great patriotism was shown in connection with the matter by men desirous of helping during the present crisis in the nation's affairs. The Davy Jones, which we have used in connection with the northern defence scheme on the West coast, was lent to us by Mr. Evans B. Deane. The Ivy Leaf, the Laurel Leaf, the Holly Leaf and the Viner were lent to us by the British Columbia Packers Association. The Aquilla was a free donation from Mr. J. Rogers, Commodore of the Vancouver Yacht Club. The Nahleen was lent by Mr. J. Musgrave. The Jessie, by Messrs.
A.	W. Bridgman, J. H. Simson and T. J. Ryan, and the Legal Limit by Mr. A. H. Pease. On the East coast two vessels were lent for defence, the Semiramis by Mr. C.
B.	Gordon and the Albaoore by Lieut. J. M. K. Ross, R.N.C.V.R., of Montreal. That is a very fast vessel and is rendering very valuable service Mr. Ross received a commission in the Naval Service and is now on board another boat, the Tuna, which he sold to us for the nominal sum of one dollar and he is doing valuable work in connection with the defences of the Atlantic coast. His course has been of the most patriotic description and I feel it is only right to make reference to it here. He made a contribution of $500,000 for the purposes of the patriotic fund. But his interest in the war and his desire to help did not cease with that; he has also placed the Albaoore and the Tuna at our disposal and is himself serving in the Canadian navy in command of the Tima, and is rendering very valuable assistance in connection with* our intelligence service on the Atlantic coast. We also received an offer from Mr. J. C. Eaton, a public spirited citizen of Toronto, of the steam yacht Florence, which, however, was not required for our use. We were also offered by Mr. Gooder-ham the use of 'his yacht, a very handsome vessel, which we have not yet had occasion to employ. .
We also received valuable contributions in kind from three Canadian firms as follows: the Cowan Company, of Toronto, 3,024 lb. navy chocolate; Messrs. Brand-ram-Henderson Company, 30,000 lb. white lead; Messrs. Martin-Senour Paint Company, 4,000 lb. anti-corrosive copper com-

position, and 4,000 lb. anti-fouling composition. The value of these gifts ran into quite a large figure.
I would take this opportunity of saying that the department feel and I feel very much indebted to Colonel Aemilius Jarvis, of Toronto, who rendered great assistance in connection with the enlisting in Toronto of naval reserve men who were subsequently sent to Halifax and placed on board the Niobe. His services were invaluable. He collected the men and gave his time to the work, and I take this opportunity of thanking him on behalf of the department for what he has done. I would also take the opportunity of saying that since the outbreak of war a great deal of extra work has been cast on the officials of the Naval Service Department; but from the deputy minister down, the civil and naval officers of the department have all discharged their duties in the most indefatigable manner, without complaint about the extra work. In the early part of the war many of them were engaged day and night, serving much longer hours than under ordinary circumstances, but without complaint and in a way that was satisfactory to me as head of the department and ought to be most satisfactory to the members of this House and people of Canada generally. I make this statement without drawing any distinction. All through the department the same loyal service has been given and there has been the same desire to do what could he done.
The House is aware that four young men who were graduates of the Naval College at Halifax and were serving as midshipmen on the Good Hope gave up their lives. Wfe .have now serving on the 'Berwick nine young men from the Naval College, and there are six more of the same class in other ships, and ten other Canadians are serving in Her Majesty's navy. I believe that if they come in contact with the foe they will do their duty in a way of which we shall be proud as Canadians and which will be in accord witTT the very best traditions of the British naval service.


Mr. BURNHAM:: The sooner we get to the country and get this Canadian navy idea knocked on the head for good and all, the better. For my part, I have been intensely disappointed to see the right hon. leader of the Opposition, and his lieutenants and supporters generally, egging on this Government to a great naval expenditure; and, strange to say, the Government does not seem to have fortitude enough to resist 
it. The other day we had an example of the positively triumphant manner in which the Minister of Marine was compelled to say that he would take the sum of $1,000,000 which he had formally and technically provided for certain purposes, and would actually make use of it and spend it. A navy and an Army are two different things. The army in this country has been a great success. It was suddenly called into existence, yet it is ready to fight, and when the war is over it will melt as suddenly away, or can be readily reduced to a peace footing; and the ordinary people of this country will have the satisfaction of being able to go about their business without having to appropriate continually a very large part of their earnings for the purpose of some absurd, bombastic expenditure on an army in the name of nationhood. But a navy is a different thing and must be established beforehand. It is a breakable sort of thing that may break up at any time, yet it must be fully and permanently established; and of course the members on the two coasts, of both parties, are only too pleased to see the people in the middle of this country-in the middle West and in Ontario and in Quebec -breaking their necks to pay taxes to establish fleets and naval units, or whatever you choose to call them, on the coasts. We can mine the approaches to this country- if we like; we can stop all ingress, and we can defend the country with our military; but what on earth do we want a navy for? A country with a population of 8,000,000, why does it propose to blow itself up like the frog in the fable and actually try to rival Great Britain and the United States and other great nations with a naval establishment, with something that must be put on a great practical basis, with all its training colleges and training ships and equipment, involving an immense expenditure?
And here we are told in an easy off-hand way, that for the future it will be necessary to appropriate so many millions more, and, as I have said, I am amazed and disappointed to find that the leader of the Opposition is the apostle of this new propaganda. The other day a very eminent Liberal in this House said to me, " Burnham, we will yet have the Canadian navy in spite of you fellows," and I believe they will. I believe they will have the Canadian navy in spite of the country, unless we go to the country pretty soon and give the people a chance to knock the whole thing on the head. It cer-

tainly should be made an issue before we commit ourselves to it. The people of this country regret that they have to make a great military expenditure. They regret that the necessities of the hour are such that they must comply with the demands for defence. But the people are paying willingly, and are satisfied that, apart from a few boots or bootlaces and things of that description they are getting their money's worth. There has been a great and energetic attempt to place Canada on a war footing, and it has succeeded in a way that very few could have thought possible. A few years ago we were an amateur nation. Now we have suddenly entered the great arena of waT and are able to take our part. That is one thing. But that a little nation like this should have two strings to her bow, have not only a great military establishment, but a great naval establishment as well, is in my opinion a betrayal of the honest toiler of this country; and I beg the Opposition to recant, to cease to egg on this Government to an expenditure which is absolutely unjustifiable in every way. The time may come when we shall have a hundred millions of people, and if they should want a navy and can afford to pay for it, all right. But surely we have enough to pay for now; surely the increase in taxation is enough to satisfy the most ardent supporter of taxation for purposes of expenditure. But no, it is not; they want more. And next year when we come back they will have thought out a great system of naval expenditure that will be highly satisfactory to.the maritime parts and exceedingly pleasant to our friends of the Liberal party, who will then be able to say:	"We told you so; we have now a
great Canadian navy; are you not proud of it?" But mark my words:	J am a very
humble individual, but I assure you that I know what the people in the middle of this country think. If they only had an opportunity of voting on the naval question, they would send this Canadian naval establishment higher than Gilderoy's kite. That is what they would do. I regard this thing as unwise and uncalled for in every way, and as something that in its way is unequalled. Of course, the minister has done his work well. We are accustomed to seeing him do his work thoroughly. But he has allowed himself to be shoved into this expenditure simply because there was no opposition to it. In this case we have not two parties met for the purposes of discussion, but a Government and an Opposition, both together apparently trying to
unite a great overwhelming tide in favour of a navy, which in my opinion is unnecessary and absolutely unjustifiable.


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot let
the occasion pass without offering thanks to my hon. friend for directing his criticism not against the Government, but against the Opposition. That is certainly flattering to us on this side of the House. According to my hon. friend we are carrying on the Government, we are imposing our views upon the Government, and the Government are submitting to our dictation. If we had an opportunity of going to the country I am afraid the Government would be knocked down for being so submissive to the Opposition.


John Hampden Burnham: I think so too.


Wilfrid Laurier: We are a
people of some eight million souls. We have a country fronting on two oceans. Does my hon. friend believe that a country so situated can do without any naval service?


John Hampden Burnham: Perhaps not indefinitely.


Wilfrid Laurier: It has to be
one thing or the other. You have to choose between a Canadian navy and contribution to the Imperial Government. At one time I thought the Government had taken their stand for imperial contribution. But no, they seem to have submitted to the Opposition, to have been egged on and bulldozed by the Opposition into a Canadian naval service. Well, I can stand it if the hon. gentlemen opposite can. The minister has given us a very interesting statement, very full, very complete, and I sincerely offer him my congratulations upon it. But he has spoken' to us only of the naval service. There is another service to which my hon. friend must give his attention, and that is the protection of the fisheries. My hon. friend has not told us what he is doing about that.


John Douglas Hazen: When my Fisheries Estimates were before the House, I fully explained what we. were doing in connection with the fisheries protection service. We are carrying on that service on both coasts, but it has been interfered with a little on ' account of the war. Some of our vessels in the fisheries protection fleet had to be withdrawn for other purposes, such as coast service, patrol work, and that sort of thing. During the last few years the fisheries pro^ tection fleet has been considerably strengthened; very much so on the Pacific

coast, by the addition of two new boats, the Galiano, and the Malaspina. These boats are much better fitted to give the necessary protection than the vessels we had previously. There 'have been no additions to the fisheries protection fleet on the Atlantic. We have boats there like the Canada, the Curlew, and the Petrel, whose business it is to protect our in-shore fishermen from having their territorial waters trespassed upon by fishermen from outside. That work has been carried on by the Naval Service Department under the direction of Admiral Kingsmill, who visits the different vessels from time to time and sees the work that is being done. I think the work is being carried on as efficiently as in the past; but we Should have a faster vessel there, and it was my intention to ask Parliament to make an appropriation for that purpose, but in view of present conditions I 'hesitated to do so this session. I can assure my right hon. friend that the work is being carried on efficiently and satisfactorily.


Major General HUGHES:: I should like to inform the House that I have just received an official communication notifying me that the Canadians, after holding their position in the trenches for one month, have been relieved for a certain period by some other division. It is the opinion not only of the officer commanding the division, but of the general commanding the British forces in France, that they have done their duty splendidly. Perhaps I may be permitted to refer to the report in regard to our expenditure, which was placed in the possession of every member of the House some time ago. Before the House rises for recess I should like to place on Hansard a statement of our Estimates, and I shall be pleased later on to answer any questions that may be asked:
War Appropriations.
Required, 1915-16	$100,000,000
Voted 1914-15	 50,000,000
Pay of 100,000 troops at $1.25 each,
12 months	 45,700,000
Rations for 50,000 troops 12 months 7,300,000 Transport, rail and ocean, going
and returning	 18,625,000
Rifles, bayonets and scabbards,
90,000	at $33.25 each	 3,100,000
Stores and equipment	 15,000,000
13, 18 and 60, pounder guns with accessories, 75 per cent of value..	3,750,000
10,000	remounts at $200	  2,000,000

Particulars of Transport.
Required for outward transport of
67,000	troops and equipment of 2nd contingent and re-enforcements, all ranks, including equipment, etc	 8,375,000
FMr. Hazen. ]
For mobilization transport in Canada	 1,000,000
For return transport of 75,000 troops, all ranks, including equipment	 9,250,000

Note: Estimated at $125 per head each way for land and ocean transport, including horses and equipment.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Prime Minister has stated that the Government would welcome any discussion or inquiry as to the procedure to be adopted in the expenditure of this money. The vote in this Bill is a vote of credit and not an ordinary supply Bill. It is not a vote of credit given to any one department, and no department has or ought to have control of it. Consequently the method of expenditure in connection with this credit vote should be different from that followed in the case of ordinary supply voted by Parliament. We should have a statement from the Government showing the system under which they have expended the fifty millions voted m August last, and as to the system they propose adopting in connection with the expenditure of this credit vote of one hundred million dollars. It is true that in the printed document laid upon the table of the House there is a recommendation made by a committee, composed of the Auditor-General and some deputy ministers and officials of other departments, laying down a system of expenditure. For instance, a portion of this recommendation is as follows:
The principle of public tender should be adopted as far as practicable in the construction of works fir the purchase of materials and supplies, particularly when it reached or exceeded the amount of five thousand dollars.
It is quite apparent that this recommendation has not been followed in every instance. The House will, I think, be disposed to judge leniently of what occurred in the early days of the war, because it was not possible or easy for the Government to follow all the suggestions, but in the main it was a fair and businesslike suggestion, and should have been followed wherever possible. I submit that in connection with this expenditure of $100,000,000 which is to be voted as a credit to the Government, the principle of public tender should be adopted almost without exception. We are now past the stage when the Government might urge that they could be taken by surprise in connection with the

purchase of supplies for our troops, and it is now possible to exercise a great deal more care in future expenditure than was shown in the expenditure immediately after August last. I wish to ask if the Government requires any of these spending departments, such as the Militia Department and the Department of Trade and Commerce, to submit to the Governor in Council or to the Treasury Board an advance estimate of the probable expenditure which they are likely to make. This vote, as I have said, is not analogous to the money votes in an ordinary supply Bill passed by Parliament. The position of affairs under it has been well defined in a Treasury minute of the British Government of date 20th August, 1914 relating to a credit vote which was made in just the same terms as our own. That Treasury minute states a definition of a vote of credit:
The nature of a vote of credit is thus described in the Treasury minute of the 1st of February, 1880 :
"A vote of credit differs from ordinary army and navy votes, inasmuch as it is taken, not by the army and navy departments, but by the Treasury. The House of Commons, in fact, dispenses for the time with its power of control and grants a sum of money in gross and without the usual limitations to the Treasury as being the central department of finance, to which it leaves the responsibility of distributing the money in a manner best calculated to meet the emergency.
'In discharge of this grave responsibility, it appears to my Lords that they are called upon to require the department about to be entrusted with the actual expenditure of any part of the vote to submit to the Treasury- (which would be the Governor in Council in this case)-in the first instance a general scheme of the expenditure which such department proposes to incur."
This general scheme is meant, whenever practicable, to precede the vote of credit and to be presented to Parliament as a record of the grounds on which the vote is asked.; it stands, indeed, for the Estimates, more or less detailed for an ordinary vote on Supply. After the vote of credit has been granted it remains with the Treasury to deal with the issues from it; and my Lords are of opinion that such issues should be demanded by the spending department, in letters to the Treasury, explanatory of the proposed mode of spending them.
That is the substance of that portion of the Treasury minute of the 20th of August, 1914, or, speaking more correctly, it is a quotation from this Treasury minute containing the description of a vote of credit made by the Treasury Board away hack in 1880. I wish to inquire if it is the intention of the Government to require of any spending department a detailed statement to the Governor in Council of this
anticipated expenditure to he made by that department with all necessary information, before the Order in Council is passed authorizing the expenditure. In other words, according to the British parliamentary practice, this vote of money is given not to any department, but to the Governor in Council, and no one department is authorized to make any expenditure out of that amount before it has received the order of the Governor in'Council.
As I have already stated, this was done partially in the vote of credit of $50,000,000 made last year, but not wholly. As I have said, we will deal leniently with any departure from this policy in the early stages of the war, because the Government were probably in the same position as the British Government found itself in at the same period, unable to follow what was the well established procedure.
Now, another point, and one which also is referred to in the minute of the British Treasury of last August. They urge very strongly that no expenditures be mads out of this vote of credit which is not strictly referable to the war. In answer to a question placed on the Order Paper by the leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laur-ier), we had the statement that "$50,000, being the contribution to the Belgian Belief Fund, had been paid out of the credit of $50,000,000 last year, and further that the payment for the million bags of flour sent as a gift to Great Britain was also made out of this vote. I do not propose provoking a discussion as to the propriety of making these two payments out of the war credit vote, but I wish to express my doubt, my very strong floubt, of the propriety of making these expenditures out of that vote. I think it is hardly businesslike, it is hardly what tne country anticipated, that our cash contribution to Belgium and the payment of our gift of flour should have been made out of this amount which we are borrowing at the moment directly from the British Treasury. I mention these cases to emphasize the fact that the Government should exercise great care in determining what expenditures should be made out of this war credit vote.
That is all I wish to say at the moment; but I think it would be well if we had from the Government a declaration as to the general policy and system to be adopted in respect of this expenditure-what control the Governor in Council intends to exercise over the expenditures made by the several departments, and what authority

they will require from each spending department. Also, I should like to Hear from the Government a declaration of Its policy as to the system of tender and contract as recommended by the committee appointed on the suggestion of the Minister of Finance. This, as I have stated, was not adhered to, and I should like to have from the Government a declaration that in this credit vote of $100,000,000 they propose to adhere rigidly to the system of tender and contract.


George Eulas Foster: No one will quarrel with the proposition contained in the recommendation of the British Treasury read by my hon. friend the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean). That is the constitutional method of proceeding, and that constitutional method of proceeding rules in our Parliament and in our executive departments as it does in Great Britain. I agree with my hon. friend also in his statement that this is not an ordinary vote; that these conditions are not ordinary conditions; that this vote of $100,000,000, like the vote of $50,000,000 already given, is the people's money in a very different way from money expended in the ordinary exercise of the executive functions of Government. It is the people's money in either case, but it is the purpose, and the strain of accomplishing the purpose, which to a certain extent gives a different earmark to these war credits from those borne by ordinary expenditures of Government. I quite agree with that proposition, and I think it is fair to say that if the very greatest caution, prudence and oversight should characterize the spending of moneys ordinarily appropriated by Parliament, if possible still greater care, prudence and foresight should characterize the appropriation and spending of this money. I do not suppose there is anybody on either side of the House who will find fault with that expression.
As to the manner in which this vote is to be expended. This is a vote, as my hon. friend says, for no particular department, and no department has any right to spend any portion of this money except by the authority of the Governor in Council. That is the general principle to be laid down, and that is the general principle that has been followed so far as circumstances would permit, and will be followed still more closely in the expenditure of $100,000,000 involved in this Bill. I do not think that members on the other side of the House 
who take a dispassionate view of it, and I am certain no business man who takes a fair view of it, as they generally do, would expect that under the circumstances which suddenly faced us in August of last year and for the three or four months imme-' diately following, that we could follow exactly the methods of expenditure ordinarily followed. We had to act on the spur of the moment, without previous preparation and in many cases without time or opportunity for consultation. So, the expenditure for the war during these three or four months was governed by peculiar conditions. As stated by the Prime Minister, and as shown by the documents laid before the House, these expenditures were made, and had to be made, without the more leisurely exercise of the authority of the Governor in Council. And it is quite possible that circumstances may develop from time to time which will make it necessary that certain expenditures shall be made outside of the general rule that is laid down. But these are less likely to occur in the future than in the past on account of the considerations to which I have referred.
As to this war vote, if any part of it is expended by the Minister of Justice, or the Minister of Naval Affairs, or any other department of the Government, it is only made after allocation of a certain sum of money to that department for certain purposes which are detailed more or less to the Governor in Council before the authority is given. I imagine that squares with the Order in Council and with the constitutional practice. For instance, if it is thought right that a certain part of this money is to be set aside for the purpose of internment, the Minister of Justice brings his report to Council, stating the circumstances and the requirements, and from time to time he gets a vote or an allotment by the authority of Council, which he expends. And when other money is needed along the same line, the Minister of Justice brings his report to Council. He informs Council what has been done, and if more money is needed an additional Order in Council is given, allocating money for the necessary expenditure. This is the practice that has been carried out in the latter part of the administration of the war vote, and this is the system which would be carried out in the allotment and administration of the war vote which the House is called upon to make to-day.
In the written document prepared by the Militia Department, which is over an affair of prices, it is stated there what was

done and why it had to be done. Council was faced with actions which had been done and which it was absolutely necessary should have been done. As the Prime Minister explained to the House, a full tabulated statement of these expenditures was made; they were sent by the Council to the Treasury Board, and the Treasury Board was asked to take these accounts and look into them. The Treasury Board was met with these conditions, that these were expenditures that had already been made, and made under the spur of circumstances. The main part of the duty of the Treasury Board was to examine into the vouchers, and generally into the regularity of the payments that had been made. This the Treasury Board did.
That applies to the expenditures which were made in the early months of the war. After that, as I have stated, reports were made to Council and the expenditures were authorized by Council. When the Minister of Militia comes to Council with his list of proposed expenditures, he acts, as does the minister of every department, on the report of his officers and special advisers detailed for that purpose. His requisitions for supply, I suppose, have been adopted in the Militia Council. Then they are brought to Council, they are considered by Council, and if, after such discussion as takes place, they approve themselves to Council, authorization is made for the expenditure.
With reference to the last observation of my hon. friend, as to tender and contract: I think the Prime Minister stated some little time ago that the principle of tender and contract was the principle that was to apply so far as it could possibly be applied. In respect of that there are difficulties which are apparent to any one who has had the administration of a departmental office under his charge. There are a great many cases that are of minor importance, each one of them involving no very great expenditure; and to submit these to tender and contract means to take a great deal of trouble often for very little advantage. Yet in such cases, I am informed, the department gets prices from people who make the article, and upon these prices an award is based. It may be that the prices differ to a certain extent. In that case, I am informed, what is considered a reasonable price, averaged on the prices received, is set as the price for the article. With reference to larger matters, prices are asked by the department, and as far as possible, the allotment is based upon a fair price ascertained by inquiries made of 105
manufacturers. It is the fact also that the policy of the department and the policy of the Government most certainly is that these tenders for articles shall be asked from, and contracts made with those who are the actual producers or suppliers of the goods. It can be put in this manner-that it is not the policy of the Government that these contracts shall be given to middlemen and brokers but that they shall go to the larger producers and suppliers of the goods. And I.think that, while you may find exceptions in the early part of the war, in the period of which we have spoken, many more exceptions than we would care to have, I think you will find also that under the later and more leisurely arrangement made by the departments and the Government, that principle is carried out. That is the principle which the Prime Minister has recommended decidedly to each of the departments, the Militia Department included, and that is the policy, which, I understand, the Militia Department is anxious to carry out.
I think I have answered all the questions of my hon. friend with the exception of one, and that is as to the class of expenditure properly referable t-o this war vote. My hon. friend has mentioned two-the Belgian contribution and the gift of flour by the Dominion Government.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Might I interrupt the minister to add another, the payment of $50,000 to the Intercolonial railway for carrying the goods of the relief committee.


George Eulas Foster: In the memorandum which I have there are marked queries as to whether tnat is a legitimate payment to be made out of the war vote or not. This matter has been largely under the hand of the Prime Minister; I have just come into possession of some of these notes, in which I find that this query has been made. I dd not think it has yet been really decided whether that payment should be made from the war vote or not; the question is debatable. With reference to the others, opinions may differ. We must remember that although we are careful not to load up the war vote with ordinary expenditures, yet there is a fair region of debate within which it may be contended that certain expenditures are or are not properly referable to that vote. The Government does not make any allotment to the war. vote without a fair consideration of whether that allotment is or is not a proper charge upon it. t Take, for instance, the million bags of flour. What I want to keep in mind is that although one is a war



vote and the other is not, the $100,000,000 or the $50,000,000 is not a gift from the British people or the British financiers or the British Government; it is a loan, and we pay that loan and the interest upon it, just as we would pay the excess of expenditure over revenue during any one of these years by a loan which we would make on the British market. The two loans are similar in conditions; they must both be met by Canada, and the interest paid thereon. But with reference to these three votes: the Belgian relief; the gift of flour and the Canadian hospital in France, after due consideration it was thought that these expenditures might be fairly charged to the war vote. They involve in the aggregate a large sum of money. They are not ordinary expenditures, by any means; they are extraordinary expenditures. I am frank to say that the charging of these expenditures to the war vote was all the more readily decided upon when regard was had to the general state of the finances of Canada. This money had to be got somewhere; it had to be got out of loans in some form or other, and, as it was an extraordinary vote in each case, the conclusion was come to that it was fairly allottable to the war vote. I do not know that anything else was brought up by my hon. friend that I have not touched upon frankly and fully. I agree in tne sentiment that with reference to this vote most scrupulous care should be taken to see, in the first place, that it is efficiently administered, in the second place, that it is economically administered, and, in the third place, that it is honestly administered. For my own part-and I think I can speak for every member of the Government-I am jealous of one single ten cents of this war vote that goes to anything else than the objective for which this Parliament and the country authorized the appropriation; that is, to the prosecution of the war.


William John Macdonald: May I ask the hon. minister if he can give me the information which the Prime Minister on different occasions promised to bring down, namely: whether a committee of council was appointed to supervise war expenditures; whether that committee was appointed by Order in Council; what its duties were; whether it is still operative; whether that committee dealt with expenditures generally, or with the expenditures of any particular department: if so, of what department?


George Eulas Foster: The Dominion
Government, through its different departments, has been executing orders from foreign governments for war materials: saddlery, blankets, harness, hay, oats, etc. A sub-committeo of council was elected to allot the orders which were sent to us by the British, Russian or French Governments in respect of .war material that they required, and which they asked us to obtain for them at certain rates and under certain conditions. Whilst the purchase of those different supplies was entrusted to different departments, this sub-committee was appointed to make the allotments. That committee was also empowered to advise the Minister of Militia in respect of certain allotments or possible contracts required for Canadian troops. It has been in existence since September or October, I think; it has had charge of the former class of contracts in the way of allotment, and has consulted on several occasions with the Minister of Militia as to contracts for distinctively Canadian supplies required for the purpose of prosecuting the war, and paid for out of this war vote.
Mr. MACDONAi,D: Who were the members of that committee?


George Eulas Foster: The personnel
of the committee has been somewhat changeable. It consists of some six or eight members ol the Cabinet.


William John Macdonald: Was it appointed
under Order in Council?


George Eulas Foster: No, it was appointed by and acts under the authority of the Prime Minister.


William John Macdonald: Who were the first members of that committee?


George Eulas Foster: From memory, the Minister of Public Works, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, the Postmaster General, the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Customs; later there were joined to it the Minister of Railways, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. That is, as I remember, the committee.


Mr. MURPHY:: Was there a chairman of the committee, and, if so, which of the members was chairman?


George Eulas Foster: The chairman of the committee was the Minister of Public
Works.


Charles Murphy: From the first?


George Eulas Foster: From the first;
and I have been doing, without fee or reward, most of the clerical work.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Was the Minister oi Militia on that committee?


George Eulas Foster: When the committee was formed, the Minister of Naval Affairs was acting Minister of Militia, and he w'as placed on that sub-committee because he was administering the Department of Militia; so that the Minister of Militia is also a member of that committee for the purpose of allotting Canadian supplies.


Charles Murphy: Was he not chairman foi a while-the acting minister?


George Eulas Foster: No, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries was never the chairman of the sub-committee; that had one chairman only. But when that subcommittee sat with the Minister of Militia to advise as to contracts, the Minister of Militia during that session and in his own department was, of course, the chairman of that committee. You will make the distinction between those two duties:	the subcommittee was separated entirely from the Minister of Militia or the Department of Militia, when they were making contracts for the allied governments; but when they were advising with the Minister of Militia as to contracts in his immediate department the committee met with the Minister of Militia or the acting Minister of Militia and he was the one who presided.


George Perry Graham: I think it is well that
these observations have been made by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) and also those in reply by the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster). It makes very clear what, of course, the members understood before, that in a vote of this kind the Government as a whole is more directly responsible than it is in a regular departmental vote, although government responsibility is understood, no matter what the vote may be, departmental or otherwise. In a vote of this kind the Government as a whole is more distinctly and thoroughly responsible for every dollar that is spent. The manufacturers of Canada, for whom I have no brief, have been called on to do a good deal of prompt and extraordinary work. In the main I think they have responded to that call very well. I know a good many of them who have expended large sums of money in purchasing plant in order that 1054
they may meet the demands of this Government, as well as the demands of the Allies, in furnishing munitions of war. However, there have been cast certain reflections which may, if not cleared up, be discreditable to the manufacturers. The reason I mention this is that this is really the testing time for the industries of Canada. They have it in their hands to make for themselves a great name or to injure our future as an industrial community. A good many questions have been asked, some imputations have been cast, and there have been statements as to the necessity the manufacturers found of dealing through a third person instead of being able to deal directly with the Government. We have had it in evidence that certain manufacturing establishments were compelled to deal indirectly instead of directly with the Government.' The manufacturers of Canada have an association which is their official organization: all the leading manufacturers', and I imagine most of the smaller manufacturers as well, are connected with that association, which in very active and very strong and very influential. I cannot conceive that this great association would allow its members to be thus compelled to deal indirectly with the Government without making some protest, If they did I would mistake the calibre of the men very much, and would not have much sympathy for them. Have the Manufacturers' Association as an association officially protested through any of their officers to the Prime Minister the acting Prime Minister, or any member of the Government, as to the methods of purchase employed by the Government, more particularly as to the statement made that they were compelled in many cases to deal through a third party and could not sell directly to the Government? If there have been any such protests from the Manufacturers' Association, would the Government lay that correspondence on. the table before the clbse of the session so that manufacturers may have their side of the case before the public as well as the Government and Parliament? I think that would be but fair, if there be such correspondence.


George Eulas Foster: I join with my
hon. friend in his sentiment that the manufacturers and producers in Canada have evinced a disposition to rise to the occasion and to represent Canada at its best in the call that was made for supplies in this country. I may explain that they have been anxious to do that and have aided in

doing that and have co-operated in doing that very thing. As regards the other point, of middlemen or direct negotiation, I may say, if my hon. friends will allow me to refer to my department, that the practice is to shut down absolutely on the middleman in respect of whatever contracts my department may have to make for outside governments. In the case of the French blanket order, which is a good illustration, the French Government asked this Government to supply, or to have supplied, 400,000 blankets of certain dimensions and of certain quality. We took that up and it was left to my department to see what could be done. I immediately got in communication with every mill that could make blankets in the Dominion of Canada and asked them directly from the department, how many blankets of that quality they were prepared to manufacture within the time specified. A great many people came to me asking for specifications. My first question to every one was, "What mill do you represent"? And if he did not represent a mill, he had no further converse with me about that. What I proposed to do, and what was done, was to make the contracts absolutely direct with the mills themselves. That was carried out, and I think that is in principle what every other member of the Government carried out, or desired to carry out. Now, I will say this. Though it did not happen in my department that the middleman was at all a profitable or necessary man to come in between myself and the mills, I think there are occasions and there are certain articles where you would, perhaps, have to negotiate through the middleman. Every member of the Government has to exercise a certain amount of common sense with reference to that. I will not carry that any further, but I just make it as a suggestion which I think will appeal to business men. I do not believe that instances of that are very many, but I believe it does occur in certain lines of enterprise and manufacture that you will have to deal with the broker or the agent rather than with the original himself. I think that answers the first part of the question of my hon. friend. I may say that at a very early period in these operations of supply and demand last autumn, the Prime Minister himself issued a letter of instructions to the members of his Government along that very same line, namely, that, as far as it could possibly be done, the original supplier or dealer should be the one who was negotiated with. In that letter I think 
he also expressed the wish that if any minister felt that a different course ought to be pursued in any case, he would consult with the Prime Minister before going outside of those instructions. Now, as to what the manufacturers thought or did not think with reference to its being possible for them to approach the Government except through a middleman, I do not remember any direct communications of that sort from them. I have had a great deal of communication with the Manufacturers' Association. Whenever I received an inquiry as to sources of supply and amount of output with reference to something I did not know very much about, my practice has been to communicate with the secretary of the Manufacturers' Association, and get from him the names of all parties who might be applied to in respect to that particular line of goods. I think that answers my hon. friend as nearly as I can answer him.


George Perry Graham: It is very interesting, but I am afraid it does not answer my question. What I asked was this: Did the Prime Minister, or in his absence the acting Prime Minister or any member of the Government, have correspondence with the Manufacturers' Association as a body, or with any of its officers, in regard to the manner in which contracts were being let, with particular reference to the fact that manufacturers throughout Canada were in many instances compelled to do their business through a third party instead of doing it direct with the Government. What I asked was, if there was such correspondence, would my hon. friend lay it on the table of the House before the session closed?


George Eulas Foster: I have no recollection of such correspondence. If such correspondence took place, it would very likely be with the Prime Minister, and I have no knowledge of the Prime Minister's having received anything of that kind. The Prime Minister is absent now from a cause which of course we all deplore, but he will be back in the House before the session ends and will be able to answer.for himself in regard to that correspondence.


George Perry Graham: I do not wish to unduly delay the committee, but my question refers to any member of the Government, as well as to the Prime Minister and the acting Prime Minister.


George Eulas Foster: I have spoken for myself.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend has spoken for himself, and to-day he is the Government so far as this question is concerned. If there be such correspondence, would my hon. friend make a note and see that it is brought down?


George Eulas Foster: I will make a note of it, but I will not say that the correspondence will be brought down. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Prime Minister on his return, and if there is anything that can be brought down I have no doubt he will bring it down. But my hon. friend, as a member of the preceding Government, knows that he has received many and many a letter sent to him confidentially which he could not bring down.


George Perry Graham: I understand that, but I had reference to official correspondence with the Manufacturer's Association as a body.


George Eulas Foster: Then my hon. friend has his reply. I will bring the matter to the Prime Minister's attention on his return.


Mr. THOBURN:: As I happen to be a member of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, possibly I may be able to answer to a certain extent the hon. gentleman's question. As far as I am concerned, or as far as any company in which I am interested is concerned, the Manufacturers' Association has nothing whatever to do with them as far as their sales are concerned, unless it might be that we were asking for information about exports. But as far as sales within the Dominion of Canada are concerned, even to the Government, the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, as far as my knowledge goes, has nothing whatever to do with them. There has been a great deal of talk about the third person. I should like to know what constitutes the third person. For instance, in my business and other businesses with which I am connected, there are what are called commission agents. These agents undertake to sell the output of the mills. Now, there must be a certain loyalty between the manufacturers and their commission agents to this extent, Sometimes we get orders direct from the wholesale trade; that is, the order comes direct to the mill, and not through our agents. In such a case, instead of sending the invoice direct to the merchant who gave us the order, we send it to our agent just as if he had taken the order himself; and he gets his commission on that order.


George Eulas Foster: That commission being paid by yourself.


William Thoburn: Yes. Even if we were to get an order direct from the Government *-we have not had that good fortune so far- we should send the invoice to our commission agent, not to the Government. The Government would get the goods just as cheaply through the commission agent as they would from us direct. The mill in all cases pays the commission. So there is not so much force as some might think in this talk about the third person. If the third person bought goods from the manufacturer and then sold them at a profit that would - alter the case. But there is a vast difference between the third person in that case and the third person who acts as a commission agent for a mill.


Charles Murphy: And who has a permanent engagement.


George Perry Graham: That is the regular business machinery of a large institution. I understand that thoroughly, but it>
was not that I was referring to. If I were buying a large amount of goods from my hon. friend, I should receive them in just the same way.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend the Alin-ister of Trade and Commerce states that in making purchases for the allied Governments, they felt, and very properly, that a certain responsibility was cast upon them, and that in cases where he was concerned he sent notices direct to the manufacturers.
It was stated here by the hon. Alinister of Militia and Defence (Major General Hughes) that a contract was negotiated in the United States for ammunition for the British Government, I think, amounting to
75,000,000 rounds, that the .contract was negotiated by Mr. J. Wesley Allison, but. that subsequently the minister and a representative of the manufacturers met somewhere in the Adirondack mountains and * executed the formal contract. I would like to ask if that matter came to the notice of the Alinister of Trade and Commerce and of the Government as a whole.


Alajor General HUGHES:: Before my
hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce replies, I desire once more to correct my hon. friend the member for St. John. He has mis-stated the case absolutely, * and he knows that he has not stated it correctly. Air. J. Wesley Allison did not primarily negotiate the contract. 1 negoti-

ated it first with some of the hon. gentleman's friends in New York and in Cincinnati. One of the firms whose representatives I met asked $42.50 per thousand and the other Flint & Company, whom my hon. friend knows, asked $37.50. Then Mr. Allison stepped in and reduced the price to $33 for Mark vii ammunition, only $3 more than the British Government some weeks before, but during the war, had paid that same firm for Mark vi ammunition, which is about $5 cheaper than Mark vii. Thirty dollars per thousand rounds was what the British Government were paying for Mark vi and $33 was the price paid for Mark vii.


William Pugsley: I do not think my hon. friend The Minister of Militia and Defence has contradicted the statement I have made, that Mr. Allison negotiated for the purchase of 75,000,000 rounds of ammunition which resulted in a formal contract being signed by the minister on behalf of the British Government somewhere in the Adirondack mountains-I forget the name of the place. That the negotiations were carried on by Mr. Allison I think the minister himself admits.


Major General HUGHES:: No, the negotiations were carried on by the Minister of Militia.


William Pugsley: What the minister
said was that at the beginning of the negotiations he found that the prices were higher than he thought they ought to have been, and then Mr. Allison stepped in and got the prices reduced. If that does not mean that Mr. Allison carried on the negotiations to a conclusion then I do not know what language means. I think I would be entirely correct, in view of the minister's statement and in view of what he stated here a short time ago, in saying that Mr. Allison did carry on the negotiations. Now, I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if the Government took any steps to get information as to the negotiations which were carried on by Mr. Allison in the United States with the different leading manufacturers of ammunition and which negotiations were carried on under credentials from this Government on behalf of the British Government and other of the allies?


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend asks me whether the Government took any steps to inquire into the negotiations which have been undertaken by Mr. J. Wesley Allison for military or war supplies in the United States.
[Mr. Sam. Hughes.!


William Pugsley: For the British Government under credentials of this Government.


George Eulas Foster: As far as I am concerned, I do not know of any steps that were taken by the Government in that respect. The question of supplies, and as to how they were provided, ran itself into two classes. All supplies, other than munitions of war, the Prime Minister-I am speaking with reference to orders from allied governments-directed the ministers of the different departments to purcha."' as it was thought best, some taking one thing and some taking another. In regard to munitions of war, it was directed that these should be negotiated for and provided for under the control of the Minister of Militia, and with those I have had no particular concern other than the concern which comes to every member of the Government when reports are made to Council submitting certain acts for approval, when I used my own judgment, as other members of the Government do, in approving or not the proposals that are made.


William Pugsley: Let me say to my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce that there are current rumours which seem to be well founded. I am not able to say whether they are absolutely well founded or not; but I think they are de-
4 p.m. serving of the attention of the Government, because if there is no truth in these rumours it -ii desirable that they should be set at rest, particularly as they concern purchases which have been made by the Allies under circumstances which necessarily have resulted from action by this Government. I am informed that this Government did employ the agency of secret service officers who were sent to New York, and who ascertained that the British Government could have obtained this ammunition at the prica of $25 per thousand rounds but for the intervention of Mr. J. Wesley Allison in New York, under credentials from this Government or one of the ministers of this Government. I am informed that the price of this ammunition was raised from $25 per thousand rounds, which was the figure first named and at which the British Government could have purchased it, to $26.50, and to that extent the manufacturers benefited. I am informed that the price actually charged the British Government was $33 per thousand rounds, which left a difference of $6.50 per thousand as Mr. Allison's profit. On 75,000,000 rounds my hon. friend will see that that will amount

to somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 on that one order. It is rumoured-my hon. friend can ascertain whether it is true or, not-that the Government, or some members of the Government-perhaps the Prime Minister-sent members of the secret service to New York city, and that the result of the investigation of the two gentlemen who were sent there has been to verify the statement which I have made. I do not vouch for it; if it is not correct it ought to be made known that it is not correct. It does not reflect up">n the Government unless the Government was a party to it or countenanced it, aui of course the Minister of Trade and Commerce will agree with me that the Government should not countenance it. It is stated also that as a result of these introductions which be had, and on these conditions which he was able to make, Mr. Allison was able to control the' ammunition supply coining from these large manufacturers, and he formed a company called the Allison Supply Company. I find in the Montreal Star of the 26th of March this statement, showing the magnitude of the operations which Mr. Allison is carrying on:
The Allison Supply Company of Canada announced that they had let contracts with United States manufacturers for 535,000,000 rounds of ammunition for the European Allies. The company has contracts pending for 500,000,000 additional rounds of ammunition. J. Wesley Allison, of Morrishurg, is stated to be the head of the company.
This statement in the Montreal Star is in accord with statements made to rue by gentlemen in New York who profess to know. I regard it as a very serious matter. We find that instead of the allied governments being able to do what the Minister of Trade and Commerce-I judge from his remarks in reference to buying blankets for the French Government-says they ought to be able to do, namely, to buy on the most favourable possible terms directly from the manufacturers, they are buying through the Allison Supply Company, which has* obtained credentials from this Government. We find this company formed by Mr. Allison; we find it continuing its work, occupying the position of middlemen and supplying this large quantity of ammunition to the Allies. It may be said that this is the business of the allied governments, and I admit that would be a natural answer to make, if it is not a fact that through his credentials received from-this Government, Mr. Allison or his company has been asked, by the British Government, to purchase
ammunition, and has been enabled to effect a combination with the manufacturers which gives him the control of the busine-s of furnishing ammunition, and as a result has been able to get himself, or the company he has formed, into the position of middlemen, through whom the allied governments are obliged to make their contracts, instead of making them directly with the manufacturers. I am informed that the Government has information on the matter already, but if it has not it ought to get that information and supply the information to the House.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. gentleman has spoken of rumours, hut he has not honoured the House by giving any. He has not taken the usual course that even an ordinary back-bencher would take, of furnishing the House with the slightest bit of data on the subject. I will tell him something. Early in the war, the Militia Department, having successfully negotiated to save the British Government $9.50 per thousands rounds of ammunition, was requested to obtain a contract from the United States authorities for the manufacture of 200,000 shells, prices were obtained, deliveries were asked for, and it was found that the prices were abnormally high compared with what we could make them in Canada for, and the deliveries were very slow. I am anxious to educate the hon. gentleman from St. John, and I trust he is listening to me.


William Pugsley: I am listening most
attentively.


Major General HUGHES:: The matter
dragged on for a time, when I conceived the notion of calling the manufacturers together. I knew that our foundries, owing to the war, were not carrying on their usual business. I knew that our large steam plants were more or less reducing output, and I called a meeting of the large manufacturers of iron and steel of the Dominion of Canada together-I do not want my hon. friend (Mr. Pugsley) to lose a word of this.


William Pugsley: What has this got to do with the question of small-arms ammunition to which I have referred?


Major General HUGHES:: I know that
my hon. friend is sometimes so dense and thick-headed that it takes an awful lot of pounding to get it in, but it is going in, or I will know the reason why. The manufacturers were called together and the lacls were placed before them, and they were asked to appoint a committee to go to the

arsenal at Quebec and witness the manufacture of ammunition. They went there, and after spending several days, they came to the conclusion that we could make ammunition in Canada. Accordingly, a committee was formed of the most representative men that could be found-I will not say the most representative men that could be found, but I will say they were all representative men. I appointed a shell committee and entrusted them with the management of that work, and I think I am safe in saying that everything except the driving bands of copper and the fuse is today made in Canada, and that applies not only to the ordinary 18-pound and 15-pound shells, but to the larger shells as well. At present$57,000,000 has been contracted for throughout the length and breadth of the Dominion of Canada, and more than that large sum is forthcoming to the shell industry. I understand that Mr. Allison on his own responsibility-he is a free citizen, he does not owe any allegiance, thank Heaven,. to either the Minister of Militia and Defence for Canada or to the hon. member for St. John-Mr. Allison, profiting by the experience of Canada in this regard, and knowing that the Russian Government was very short of shells, made a contract with that Government for 5,000,000 shells- that is what the hon. member refers to-
5,000,000 shells and not 500,000,000, which are being manufactured to-day.


William Pugsley: Will my hon. friend
pardon me? This article in the Montreal Star does not refer to shells; it refers to rounds of ammunition. The hon. gentleman is speaking of a different matter entirely.


Major General HUGHES:: Is that so? I can tell the hon. gentleman there is nothing to it. These 5,000,000 shells were manufactured by a company of which a Canadian corporation is at the head, and they are being manufactured in Canada and the United States, and many millions of dollars will be left in Canada, and many millions also will be left in the United States. Let me say that a new company, owned in Canada, will he interested in this matter, and it is a new industry entirely brought to this country.


William Pugsley: The statement of the Minister of Militia is very interesting, but he has been dealing with a different matter entirely from that to which I was referring. He is referring to a contract which Mr. 
Allison, I am informed, succeeded in getting for the manufacture of shells for the Russian Government; a contract in which the Hon. Senator Curry is interested, as I have seen stated in the newspapers. That refers to a contract for shells to be manufactured as far as possible in Canada, and I hope they will be manufactured in Canada. But what I am speaking of is an entirely different matter; I am referring to ordinary ammunition for small-arms.


Major General HUGHES:: I never heard of it.


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman never heard of it?


Major General HUGHES:: No.


William Pugsley: Why, the other night the hon. gentleman told me that Mr. Allison had negotiated a contract for
75,000,000 rounds, and then I read the statement from the Montreal Star. The Minister of Militia says that I have a thick skull and that it is difficult to penetrate my brain, and while the Minister of Militia is ordinarily very intelligent he must have been sleeping when I was making my remarks, because I was speaking of a matter entirely different from that to which he has referred.
Major-General HUGHES: I am glad to see the hon. member so much better posted than I am; I never heard of this before.


William Pugsley: I am asking the Government to get the information and to furnish it to this House, if it is not already supplied with the information. I was stating, although probably the minister did not hear, that it is currently reported that the Government has already investigated this matter, that it has had its secret service men in the United States, and that it has ascertained the truth of the statement to which I have referred.
' At all events, if they have not, I think the matter is of such great importance that the Government ought to get the information. They ought to do so, because of the fact, which I will repeat, that if Mr. J. Wesley Allison and the Allison Supply Co. have got themselves into the position that the Allies are compelled to engage them as middlemen for the purchase of ammunition in the United States, it is because of the credentials and standing which this Government, acting as the agents of the British Government, gave to Mr. Allison, which enabled him to go to New York and announce to

these manufacturers that he was the representative of the Canadian and British Governments and had the authority, and he alone had the authority, to negotiate for the purchase of ammunition.


Major General HUGHES:: I am called upon to go over this ammunition business once more for the benefit of my hon. friend. The hon. gentleman himself stated-though I had to drag it out of him-that the United States Government, which he was representing by reading from the report, paid $36.50 per 1,000 rounds last year for ammunition which they purchased from their own factories-ammunition which is cheaper to be made than ithe British Mark vii. He slipped that out gingerly and gently, and reluctantly, when I dragged it out of him-that the price was $36.50. The price that his friends, Flint & Co., asked for ammunition, was $37.50 at the lowest; their highest was $48. They came down to $37.50, but below that they would not budge-the usual commission, I presume, was the difference. The British Government made a contract on the 4th of August for 20,000,000 rounds of Mark vi. ammunition at $30 per 1,000

this, I say, is for Mark vi. ammunition, for which $25 would have been ample-the old, roundnosed ammunition, the obsolete ammunition. Some weeks after the war broke out, the contract to which I have referred was negotiated by me, assisted by Mr. Allison, and we were instrumental in bringing down the price so that the British Government saved $4.50 per 1,000 rounds of ammunition; and I challenge the world to point to one line or one word to the contrary.


William Pugsley: I hope that what my hon. friend says is absolutely correct; I trust it is correct for the reputation and honour of this country and for the good name of the Government.


Major General HUGHES:: The Government does not stand any insinuations from the hon. member for St. John.


William Pugsley: I make no insinuations; my remarks have to do with Mr. Alison and his company. But if the report in the Montreal	Star is true, and
if the profit made is the difference between $26.50 and $33, it would amount to upwards of $6,000,000. On the contract which the minister says was first made, of 75,000,000 rounds, it would amount to between $400,000 and $500,000. The hon. Minister of Militia states that he accomplished great things for the British Government. Among other things, he says that the British
Government placed an order for twenty million rounds at $30 per 1,000.


Major General HUGHES:: That was Mark vi. ammunition.


William Pugsley: Which the hon. minister says is obsolete?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


William Pugsley: That is certainly a very serious reflection upon the British War Office, and shows that they stand a long way behind the Minister of Militia in knowing what are the modern requirements.


Major General HUGHES:: Not necessarily. They might have appliances for making Mark vi and not for making Mark vii. I may enlighten the hon. gentleman to that extent.


William Pugsley: At all events, does that justify this Government in standing idly by and seeing Mr. J. Wesley Allison and the Allison Supply Company taking $6.50 per thousand rounds of ammunition by way of commission out of the British taxpayer? I do not think it does. With reference to the cost of manufacture, the hon. gentleman says that the extract from the report of the Secretary of War states that manufacturers had been charging $37.50. That is true. But the Secretary of War also states that upon an order for only ten millions of rounds in their own factory, after charging up everything-which would necessarily mean all costs, including overhead charges, for otherwise the comparison would mean nothing- they were able to manufacture this ammunition at $22.50 per thousand rounds.


Major General HUGHES:: Then, why
did they pay their own factories $36.50?


William Pugsley: I am citing the report
of the Secretary of War.


Major General HUGHES:: But I am asking the question why did they pay $36.50? And the fact that they did pay it is the fact that I dragged from the hon. gentleman, and he stated it very reluctantly.


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman does not do himself credit *by saying that he dragged that from me and that I stated it reluctantly. He asked me what the United States Government were paying and I said ; $37.50. About a dozen times he has stated that he dragged this from me. If he thinks that adds to the strength of his position, he is at liberty to say it as often as he pleases.


Major General HUGHES:: He read the
statement of cost as being only $22.50 when he knows that that did not include overhead charges.


William Pugsley: I knew nothing of the kind. I assumed that it included everything.


Major General HUGHES:: He ought to
have known. Then, I dragged it from him that the only fair comparison would be with what the United States Government had paid factories;' and he was forced to admit, what he should have stated when he read his statement, that the United States Government were paying no less than $36.50 per thousand rounds a year before the war for ammunition which was Mark vi, whereas what the British Government bought W'as Mark vii.	.


William Pugsley: 
Major General HUGHES:: No, but I have reason to suppose that the hon. gentleman has been nosing around New York.
Mr. PUGSLEY The hon. gentleman has become so familiar with matters affecting round-nosed bullets that he does not know any other suitable expression to use. I may tell him, however, that when I go to New York I do not nose around.


Major General HUGHES:: Slipping
around.


William Pugsley: 
Major General HUGHES:: 
William Pugsley: If my hon. friend were as anxious to preserve the honour of the country and to save money to the British treasury as he is to attack me, there would be a very easy way for him and for the Government to satisfy this committee and the people of the country that I have been entirely misinformed in this matter. That would be to produce solemn declarations from the leading manufacturers who are supplying this ammunition to the Allison Supply Company as to the amount which they are actually being paid by the Allied Governments and the amount of commission which they actually pay Mr. Allison. That would settle the matter quite easilyand in a more satisfactory way than my hon. friend can settle it by abusing me. I shall not attempt to reply to his last remarks. There may be many things in respect to the administration of the affairs of my hon. friend's department in regard to which I might follow his example and resort to abuse, but I shall not do so. This is a matter of far too great importance to justify the adoption of that attitude, and I think my hon. friend might well devote his attention to furnishing to the committee affidavits or declarations of such nature as I have indicated.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-payment of $100,000,000 may be made:
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: A considerable
amount of the expenditure from this vote

of credit will have relation to the cost of the concentration of troops at various points, such as Calgary, Regina, Halifax and St. John. Do I understand that the system of tender and contract will apply to such expenditures, or is this to be left to patronage committees?


Major General HUGHES:: The system of tender and contract will apply.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In connection with the Belgian Relief Fund, the Federal contribution has been but $50,000. Several provinces of Canada have contributed nobly to this fund, none better than my own native province. I have always felt that the sum of $50,000 contributed by the Dominion of Canada was hardly a fitting or true expression of Canadian public opinion and that something more should be done. I am still of the opinion that, notwithstanding the many demands made upon the revenues of the country, the Canadian Government, for the Canadian people, should yet do something for the relief of the destitute Belgians on a larger scale than they have heretofore done. That puts my vjew briefly before the committee, and I would like to ask the Government if they have had under consideration the matter of a further contribution to this very desirable fund.


George Eulas Foster: The Government views the case of Belgium with equal sympathy and solicitude as hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. A preliminary vote was made to that fund of $50,000. Large and wide calls were made upon the public, both in Canada, the United States and other parts of the world, which have'been most magnificently responded to. Altogether the people have given, outside of the Government contribution, a very large . sum of money and a very large amount of value in the shape of what was just as good as money to the Belgian sufferers. That flow of sympathy and active help has not been diminished in these later months, nor is it, I believe, being diminished at the present time. Belgium is suffering to-day, but she will make an equal if not greater call for help in the future. Amid all the charity and good feeling that the world has evinced in the aid of Belgium's suffering, present aid finds its *way to the comfort of the sufferers. By and by, when the war is over, Belgium will face another phase which will not appeal to the general sympathy of the world as do the sufferings of the Belgians at the present moment. She will face the situation of a

nation, a large proportion of whom are exiled from their land, and all of whose property and possessions have been either absolutely destroyed or greatly diminished by the war. There will come a time when an appeal will be made to rebuild Belgium, to make the old homes good again and to put tools and resources into the hands of the people to go back to Belgium and rebuild their ruined nation. When that time comes there will be more necessity for an appeal to Governments than there is today, because there will possibly be less general world-wide ground of appeal to charity. The Government have both of those things under consideration. They have not at all determined, quite the opposite, that the limit of what they will do on behalf of Belgium has been reached. It is a question which may well be pondered as to whether a contribution in the way of charity for the mesent is more needed than a contribution for the upbuilding of the country in a few months after this, when that country comes to be rebuilt. The whole question* is before the Government, and my hon. friend may rest assured that the heart of the Government is just as warm towards that splendid little nation and feels just as deeply its woes and sufferings as do hon. gentlemen on the other side. There is nothing but, as it were, a competition among us all as to our sympathy and good-will towards Belgium.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend in front of me (Mr. Oliver) has suggested that the Belgians in the meantime have to eat three times a day, and that something ought to be done for them. We all hope that when the war is over the indemnity that will be collected from Germany will go to build up the ruin that has been.wrought in Belgium.
I have no doubt that this is one of the questions that will be dealt with rigorously by the Allies and that if money can repair the terrible ravages that have been made in that country it will be attended to when the indemnity is settled. I wish to join with my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) in saying that in my view the Dominion Government might do something more than they have done in this matter, as $50,000 does not look large enough for the Dominion of Canada to give owing to the enormous demands that have existed in Belgium during the last few months. As a matter of fact, the Dominion Government have really contributed nothing, because they have charged to the war fund $50,000

odd for carrying the Belgian Relief supplies on the Intercolonial railway. I was surprised the other day, on looking at an answer brought down by the Secretary of State in reply to a question asked by the right hon. leader of the Opposition as to the disposition of the war vote of last August, to find that among the items there is a charge for carrying the goods for the Belgian Relief by the Intercolonial railway, $50,107.25. I am informed that the Grand Trunk, the Canadian Pacific railway and the Canadian Northern railways carried these goods free of charge, and I think it extraordinary that, when the three great privately-owned railways do this free the people of Canada should have to vote out of the war vote the large amount of $50,000 to the Intercolonial railway for doing the same service. What has the Minister of Railways to say about that?


Mr. COCHRANE:: He has nothing to say. It is out of the Government's pocket anyway, and what difference does it make whether it is paid here or out of the war vote? The goods are carried through and charged up; so- what difference does it make?	.


John Howard Sinclair: It does not seem to me to be a proper charge against the war appropriation.


Francis Cochrane: That is a matter of
opinion.


George Eulas Foster: Anyway, it did not come out of the Belgians.


John Howard Sinclair: I did not say that.


Charles Marcil: Has any application been made to the Government for the relief of sufferers in Northern France? La France-Amerique and other associations have come to their relief, but has the Government considered doing anything? That part of France has suffered almost as much as Belgium.


George Eulas Foster: I do not recall
any formal application having been made from there, or from Serbia or Poland; a.nd we must recollect that if there is any spot in the wide world where suffering is more awful than it is in any other place, you will find that place in Serbia or in some parts of Poland. If our money were only as plentiful as our hearts are sympathetic we would go to the help of all. There is this, however, to be said. France is to a large extent intact. She is a rich country, and
does not stand in quite the same position as Belgium with reference to the sufferings that have been caused in this war. I do not recall that any request has been made from Northern France, although certainly the sympathies of the people of Canada are as open to the sufferers there as to those in Belgium.


Charles Marcil: Has any suggestion been made in regard to bringing over Belgian agriculturists?


George Eulas Foster: There have been statements in the papers and letters with regard to that, but I do not think it is at all practical; and for this reason. I think Belgium will want all her farmers and agriculturists in her own country when, a short period from this, she begins to rebuild.


Mr. OLIVER:: I do not know whether the question has been asked or not, as I was not here at the beginning of the discussion, but I should like to ask if this vote of $100,000,000 will carry Canada's war expenses for the period of a year? Or, if not, for what period will it carry?


George Eulas Foster: If my hon. friend had been here this morning he would have heard the statement read by the Minister of Militia. I will just give it to him in bulk. It is estimated that to carry on all the branches of this service and provide supplies for the fiscal year 1915-16, the sum of $95,475,000 will be required.


Frank Oliver: I take it, then, that this
is the measure of Canada's assistance for this year to Great Britain in this war.


George Eulas Foster: No, I would not say that at all. This is what, under circumstances as they appear to us to-day, Canada is making provision for. But if in the eventualities of this war it transpires that more is required from Canada, more will be given.


Frank Oliver: I have not read this itemized statement of the Minister of Militia. But to repeat what I said in the House some time ago. I understood that the British loan of $50,000,000 or $60,000,000, which is under expenditure now, was considered to be sufficient for Canada's war expenditure on the basis of 50,000 men for a period of six months. I understand that we have or are to have in the neighbourhood of 100,000 men in the field during this coming year. As I figure it, if $50,000,000 is necessary for the establishment and upkeep of

50,000	men for six months, it will certainly take more than $100,000 000 to keep 100,000,000 men for a year. I believe that my view is sufficiently pertinent to warrant a fairly frank and full statement on the subject from the Minister of Militia or the Government.


George Eulas Foster: I think my hon. friend is satisfied with the answer I gave just now.


Frank Oliver: No.


George Eulas Foster: If my hon. friend wants it any stronger, will he say how much stronger he wants it? Canada is in this war to see it through, and whatever is necessary for that purpose I feel that the House will be willing to put at the disposal of the Government, and I know that the Government will do whatever is necessary. If.it requires more than this vote for the sustenance of the troops that are at present in the field or in contemplation, or if more troops are required than those now provided for, the Government will be prepared to provide those troops and those necessaries, and will depend upon the House and the country for support.


Frank Oliver: I quite appreciate that.
But I still think that the position as I placed it before the House is entitled to something more than the statement of generalities my hon. friend has offered. We are here to vote a sufficient amount of money to achieve a certain purpose. Now either we are doing it or we are not doing it; and as intelligent and responsible representatives we ougnt to know from the Government whether we are or whether we are not voting enough money to keep up our proposed establishment during the year. If we are not, we ought to know it. If we are,' it is perfectly, right for us to know. As to eventualities that may occur in the future and how they are to be met, that is another question. But the question I asked was this. If $50,000 000 will keep only 50,000 men for six months, does the Government propose to keep 100,000 men in the field for a year on $100,000,000?


George Eulas Foster: The Estimates
given by the department are plain on ugh I think. They have estimated that for the fiscal year 1915-16 the amount of $95,475,000 will be required. My hon. friend need not be alarmed about it. We are now in March, and in all probability this House will meet in less than twelve months from the present time. Anything extra which needs to he provided for can be provided for. I do

not see how I can give any stronger answer than I have given, and I believe my hon. friend thinks it strong enough, hut just wants to play around it a little while.


Frank Oliver: No, if I may be pardoned, I cannot agree with my hon. friend. I will put the matter a little more definitely. What is the extent of the establishment that it is proposed to keep in the field for a year on this vote.


Major General HUGHES:: We have at the front at present a division, with details for filling up that division, aggregating 33,000 men, besides the Princess Patricias, consisting of 1,000 men, and 1,000 men at Bermuda. We have the second contingent at home consisting of between 22,000 and 23,000 men, including the medical and army service corps. The details of the second contingent will aggregate between 5,000 and
7,000	men. For the third Canadian contingent there have been enrolled, with details, 25,000 men, besides those we have on militia duty. Speaking of the overseas men alone, we have a total of about 90,000 men enrolled and under arms.


Charles Marcil: Are all these men under pay ?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. With reference to what my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) says, in the early part of the war, there were a great many articles and supplies procured, the use of which will extend over a part of this year, and the inclusion of these in the first estimate makes it relatively higher than this year'-s estimate, because some of these articles will be carried into the second year.


Frank Oliver: I am sorry that the information that has been given to the public so far would not indicate that my hon. friend takes a correct view of the matter. Supplies, so far from lasting into another year, have not lasted the six months of this year.


Major General HUGHES:: Some of them will last into the next year. For instance, the ordinary life of a wagon at the front is estimated to be less than a month. Many of our wagons and trucks will run for six months. The average life of boots and harness in the British army is six or seven weeks. Most of our boots, bad as they are, have lasted six months. It is difficult to make an absolute calculation; all we can do is to take the average life of these things in time of war, and figure on our estimates accordingly.


Frank Oliver: I think my hon. friend's allusions are hardly fortunate.


Major General HUGHES:: I said some of them.


Frank Oliver: The information that has been placed, before the public would indicate that the British supplies have lasted longer than- the Canadian supplies-that, in fact, an abnormally large part of the Canadian equipment has already had to be replaced by British equipment, for which, I presume, this country will be expected to pay. I do not wish to take up that side of the question; that is not what I am trying to get at. Parliament is in session, war has been in progress for eight months, and, as far as' we can see, it will continue for another year and may be much longer. What I want to arrive at is: What is the definite proposition that the Government is placing before the country ? What are we committing ourselves to ? Is the limit of Canada's aid given by this Parliament to be a vote of $100,000,000 to support a field army of
100.000	men ? If that is the fact, there is no harm in saying so. If it is not, the country, and everybody in the country, should know it. I am not calling in question the policy or decision of the Government, but I think that in all honesty and fairness they should say what their decision is.


Major General HUGHES:: Our intention is to keep 50,000 men in the field, which means a certain wastage every month. If it is necessary, and if it is the wish of the British Government, that we should increase that number, I presume the people of Canada will be more than willing that it shall be increased; but our figures for this vote are based upon an estimate for keeping
50.000	men in the firing line and a balance of relays going up to them. I understand that was the point of the hon. gentleman's question.


Frank Oliver: That was it.


Major General HUGHES:: That is what we are estimating on. If we find it our duty to give 25,000 more, I have not the slightest doubt that the people of Canada will be ready to back the Government up.


Frank Oliver: Certainly. I wanted to know what the Government's programme was. If it is to keep 50,000 men in the field with this vote of $100,000,000, we know exactly where we are, and we know the policy of the Government in regard to it. I wish.
however, to take this opportunity of, in some degree, questioning what has been done in the past in this particular. I do not-wtsh to pose as a military authority, but there are certain details of the matter that have been brought to my attention very strongly that I think the House should be made aware of, and I cannot bring these details to the attention of the House without in some measure criticizing the policy that has been pursued by the Government and the department in the past. I speak of the matter of enlistments for the contingents as they have taken place during the past months. When war was declared there was a call for men which was responded to very promptly throughout the country, and the men were sent forward. It was of course known that it was the greatest war that history had ever recorded or that might be expected to occur in the future. It was understood that Canada was to take a large part in this war, that it was to be in the war as an integral part of the Empire and was to take all the fortunes of war as they came. It was understood that there were to be further enlistments. There were posters issued, " Your King and Coun-5 p.m. try need you," and men were called upon to come forward for enlistment. In the part of the country where I live men sold their farms and their belongings on their homesteads, and came from distant parts of the West, some of them from the Peace River district, and some from far outlying homesteads, to answer this call. When they came to the centres where they expected to be enlisted, they got no consideration whatever. Many of them walked the streets, and spent the little money they had realized from the sale of their property waiting until their King and country, in the persons of the agencies of the Militia Department, should call for their service. Some of these men came in with considerable money-several hundred dollars, and some came in with very few dollars, and in a short while, as times were very dull and work was not available in the cities, many of them were stranded. Some of them were not only seriously discouraged, but had to find their way home as best they could or find some other location in which to earn a livelihood. From time to time notices came that enlistments were to be made. From time to time enlistments were made, but that condition of uncertainty and indecision continued in the conduct of the affairs of the Militia Department until some

time during the month of December, if not the month of January, when final enlistments were made for what is called the third contingent. That condition of- affairs militated very seriously against the spirit of sacrifice which is the first necessity to military enthusiasm. If a man has made every sacrifice that he can make and has placed himself at the disposal of his country and he is ignored and treated with contempt, it is not unreasonable to believe that that not only affects his military enthusiasm very seriously, but that the contagion is apt to spread and affect the enthusiasm of those in like circumstances.
I do not think I would be warranted in supporting this vote without calling the attention of the House to that condition of affairs, and to say that I consider it absolutely inexcusable. If it ever was necessary to enlist the number of men we have enlisted, and I certainly think it was necessary, it was just as necessary in the month of August last as it was in the month of January. If that enlistment of approximately 100,000 men had been made when the men were coming forward and offering themselves, it would have been an inspiration to the country at large. Although we have had a very good response, we would have, had an even better response than we have had. We might have been in a position now to have a larger force and to be more fully represented where the danger is, and where the sacrifice is being made, and where great events are to take place within the next few months. I have heard many reasons given why this was not done. It is because it was not done at the time when, in my humble judgment, it should have been done, that I approach the question as to what is the intention of the Government under the vote that is now being taken. If the Government has the intention of taking a greater part in these world-shaking events, I say to them, now is the time to take that part and not at some time in the future. If that enlistment had been made when, in my humble judgment, it should have been made, Canada would have been represented more fully than she is to-day, and it is to-day and in the next few weeks that the representation which Canada sends is wanted, and wanted most. It may be said that there was a lack of equipment, and of course equipment had to be provided, but at the same time it is necessary that men shall be gathered together, so that they may learn forms of drill, and these forms of drill could be learned in large measure without

any very full equipment. The men who could have been enlisted in August or September last would now have been ready to take their part. The equipment is ready now, but these men have not had that period of drill which fits them for their places in the firing line. They cannot go forward when the need for them is greatest, and we are prejudiced to that extent in the part we desire to take in these terrible events. It is not because of idle curiosity or a wish to criticize that I speak, but because I would not wish to see these events, which occurred in my part of the country last fall, occur in the future. I would like to see the Government make up its mind in good time exactly as to what it was going to do, and then do it, and not say: we will send our last men and spend our last dollar, and while they are saying that men are offering their services and are simply being ignored and compelled to return to their homes. If the Government purpose taking a greater part in the war than is laid down in these Estimates, now is the time to say what they intend to do, and what they want, and then let the men who are prepared to make the sacrifice know that they are wanted and that their sacrifice is appreciated.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. gentleman referred to a locality in the Dominion of Canada which is unique. Edmonton is the rallying-point, so to speak, for all the country beyond it. At the outbreak of the war there were a great many splendid young fellows who had been engaged in railway construction or in one occupation or another, far beyond Edmonton, and they rallied into that city and the Edmonton regiment, under command of Colonel Maynard Rogers, which was sent to the front, was one of the best in Val-cartier or Salisbury.	Previous to my
leaving for England, it was decided that the second contingent should be enrolled. The second contingent was enrolled, and one infantry regiment was taken from Alberta, and also a cavalry regiment. Edmonton furnished a squadron, if not more, for that second cavalry regiment, and also quite a percentage of the men of the 31st regiment, which was assembled there. Immediately on my return from England, we set to work on the third contingent, and in less than three weeks from the time I recalled Colonel Griesbach, he had a lot of splendid men gathered together. There was another regiment

under Colonel Horwood. Edmonton has raised another squadron of cavalry and another regiment of infantry, all fine young fellows. It may be true that we did not take all the men offering at Edmonton, but still the enlistment had to be graduated according to the wishes and requirements expressed from time to time, and limited by our accommodation for the men. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) knows as well as I know, that Edmonton could not possibly have provided for four regiments of infantry in winter time, even if they were billeted around the town, and it is not desirable to have the men in billets if it can be avoided. Edmonton has done splendidly, but Edmonton could not possibly have accommodated several regiments, and the system of billeting out does not tend to discipline. I am satisfied that all in all Edmonton has 'done splendidly. In October when I was absent I know they wanted to go on enrolling two new regiments, but Edmonton was given a fair share, and we had to allot the proportion of enlistment fairly between the different parts of Canada. I am proud to say that the province of Alberta has furnished relatively more men per head of the population, than any other portion of the Dominion of Canada, as I believe that one out of every forty, of the people of Alberta have enrolled in the, service in one way or another. As to the city of Edmonton itself, we could not do any better than we have done. Already Alberta has, I think, supplied four regiments, a part of a fifth regiment, and six squadrons of cavalry.


Frank Oliver: I am not criticising the
Government for their conception of their duty; that is a matter for their responsibility. I merely urge that this enlistment of men for foreign service be not taken lightly. The man who leaves his farm leaves his prospects, leaves his future, even if he should return safe and sound; and for the credit of the Government and of everybody else it should be well known in good time what is wanted and when it is wanted. If this point is guarded there will be a better response and better satisfaction all round. So far as Edmonton is concerned, our position was no different from that of Calgary and many other points of the West where men came from far points expecting to be enlisted and were not enlisted. That is over and done. All I urge is that the errors or mistakes which have occurred in the past shall not occur in the 106
future. There may have been excuses for them in the past; there are no excuses for them in the future. If it is the intention of the Government that there should be a larger part taken in this war than we are preparing to take, I say now is the time and here is the place to make that declaration and that preparation.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS PURCHASE BILL.
[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Frank Cochrane (Minister of Railways and Canals), Bill No. 105, to amend the Government Railways Act and to authorize the purchase of certain railways, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
On section 1-acquisition of railways and works:
Charles Marcil: I was not here on Saturday when this Bill was up. I would like to renew the question I asked on another occasion:	Is there any intention to take
over the Quebec and Oriental and the Atlantic, Quebec and Western railways.


Francis Cochrane: I do not think it is
in the interest of the country that I should name any roads that I propose to take over.


Charles Marcil: The International has been taken over?


Francis Cochrane: Yres, and this Bill is
to ratify that action.


Charles Marcil: And the minister is not in a position to state what intends to do with regard to those other roads?
. Mr. COCHRANE: Not yet.


George Perry Graham: The minister provides in this Bill for taking over two railways. Can he tell us about these roads?


Francis Cochrane: I explained that the other day.


George Perry Graham: I regret to say I was not here.


Francis Cochrane: The International road runs from Campbellton to St. Leonard's, a distance of 112 miles. It is in good physical condition, except for one curve and grade, which I think we shall be able to change. I have a vote of $25,000 this year to do it. The justification for taking over this road is that the International bridge at St. Leon-



ard's was being completed and it would have enabled this road to cut into the Intercolonial railway's trade. That place is a very large lumber section, and the taking over of this road will give us a shorter line through the eastern states. They could have injured the receipts of the Intercolonial railway very much. We shall be able to serve the shippers at that point at a lower rate and, I think, make as much in net profits for the Intercolonial railway as we could the other way. The other road, the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, is taken over for the purpose of connecting the Intercolonial railway with the car ferry for Prince Edward Island. That is a road thirty-six miles long not in very good shape.


George Perry Graham: Is that the road a part of which is floating?


Francis Cochrane: No. I was over it, and while it was not exactly in good condition we have improved it to some extent and must improve it more.


George Perry Graham: How much are we giving for it?


Francis Cochrane: It is stated in the Bill -$270,000. It was bought on condition that we pay four per cent until the House voted the money to pay for it. The other road was leased for five years at $90,000 a year, which is a little less than 3i per cent, and then we are buying it at $2,700,000. I think I can safely say that it would cost at least that amount to build the road to-day; I think it would cost that when it was built.


Charles Marcil: What has been the result of the operation of the International railway ? What information can the minister give as to the receipts and expenditures ?


Francis Cochrane: I cannot give the exact receipts, but I think I can safely say that the road is paying its running expenses.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister given any consideration to the construction of a bridge at Campbellton, over the Restigouche river, to connect the International and Intercolonial systems with the system of railways in the Gaspe peninsula ? Numerous petitions have been sent in by the people of Restigouche, the board of trade of the town of Campbellton, the county council of the county of Restigouche, the town of Dal-housie, and all the municipalities on both sides of the river. The late Government was petitioned in this matter, and petitions have been sent to the present Administration. I understand that a deputation was I Mr. Cochrane.]
here recently 'in connection with the matter. Has the minister given any consideration to the subject ?


Francis Cochrane: I have not considered it.


William Pugsley: I am glad indeed to hear the minister express the opinion that this traffic can be carried by the shorter route over the International railway across the bridge which is now being constructed over the St. John river. I am informed by the president of the company that the bridge will be ready for use by April 15. Certainly it is creditable to the company that, having begun the work only in the month of August last, they have been able to complete it in such a short period of time. The construction of the bridge is also somewhat unique by reason of the fact that no public aid has been given to the company either by this Government, the Provincial Government or the municipalities. This shows the great confidence which the people interested in the traffic have in the possibilities of that traffic. I know the country very well; the railway runs through a magnificent country, which is well timbered, and a large part of which is 'veil adapted to agriculture. Since the construction of the road I understand that over 5,000 settlers have gone into that country.


Francis Cochrane: Into the timber land?


William Pugsley: Thej have gone into the timber country, settling along the railway line, but very great care is being exercised, both by the railway authorities and by the Government to prevent the destruction of the timber. As I say, the land is exceedingly fertile and well adapted to farming, and I am sure that before many years it will become a splendid agricultural country. I quite realize that the Government has acted wisely in taking the road over. I have always felt, from the statements of railway experts, that this line occupies a strategical position, and if it were to go into the hands of another company interested in taking the traffic, the result would be a serious interference with the traffic handled by the Intercolonial railway. I am glad, indeed, that the minister has decided to take the road over. I think that if he acts under the powers contained in the first section as prudently, so far as the company is concerned, as he has acted in respect of these two roads, the country will not be very
much the	loser	by	reason of	thislegislation.	I desire	to express	mygratification	that	at last, after many	years in	which	the	acquisition	of
branch lines of the Intercolonial railway has been urged by members of this House, more especially, [DOT] I think, on this side-until some four years ago, when the hon. member for Kings and Albert (Mr. Fowler) took the matter up-to know that we are likely at last to have a consummation of the policy of taking over the branch lines of the Intercolonial railway. If I were in my hon. friend's position, however, I would not be too careful to be always sure that the branch lines would pay the Intercolonial from the standpoint of traffic.


Francis Cochrane: You have just said
that if I buy the others upon as good terms as I bought these, I should be doing all right.


William Pugsley: That is true; that would be as to price. But there are some small branch lines which do not show very great traffic earnings, but which serve fairly important sections of the country. When it becomes known that, by reason of Government operation, there will be a permanent, continuous and satisfactory service, industries will be established along these lines, and the country will develop to a greater extent than it possibly could develop while uncertainty of operation exists. Another important matter is that instead of being obliged to pay double rates, as they do now, persons who receive goods, over the railway will be subject to the very great advantage of only one freight charge, based on mileage. I feel sure that the carrying out of this policy will' result in a very great benefit to the people of the Maritime Provinces, and I think also to certain sections of the province of Quebec. .


Charles Marcil: When the International railway was built there was to be a bridge at each end of the road, one at St. Leonard's, and one over the Restigouche river at Campbellton. An Act of Parliament was passed authorizing the construction of a railway and highway bridge over the Restigouche river, for the purpose of giving the Gaspe peninsula easy access to the Intercolonial railway and the New England States.


Francis Cochrane: Was an appropriation made?


Charles Marcil: A subsidy was voted, but the president of the railway, Mr. Malcolm, subsequently declared that this subsidy was not sufficient to build the line, and that the Government would have to guarantee the bonds. This subject was under consideration when the change of Administration 1061
took place. However, the taking over of the International will provide a short cut to the New England States for the Gaspe peninsula. The Quebec Oriental railway was known at different times by two other names. It was originally known as the Baie des Chaleurs railway; then it had another name, the' Atlantic and Lake Superior; finally it became the Quebec Oriental railway. When the minister takes over this road I am sure that he will see that the properties which have been taken over as rights of way will be paid for. Many farmers from Matapedia to New Carlisle have had their farms cut up by the construction of this road, and have never been paid for the right of way. The station at Cross point, opposite Campbellton, is on the farm of a man named Fraser-, who never received a dollar for his property. The Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company made certain offers which the farmers would not accept. When the company went into insolvency, the Atlantic and Lake Superior Company took over the project, and they also did not pay for the right of way. There are, in addition, claims for labour, board and material on the part of persons all along the line from Matapedia to New, Carlisle. I hope that the minister will see that the people are treated properly; that those who gave their properties as rights of way, and those who furnished material, board, etc., are properly indemnified I would call his attention also to the importance of the lower part of the road-the new road which has been built from New Carlisle to Gaspe. That is in as good . condition as the International was or is to-day. A special subsidy was voted by this Parliament for the erection of some 25 bridges over a very difficult country down the Gaspe basin. The fact that this road is in good condition brings about a peculiar condition of affairs. At Chandler, in the township of Pabos, in Gaspe, an American company from Philadelphia has established a large pulp industry and is expending $2,000,000 or $3,000,000. I understand that a number of Canadians are now associated with that company. This company transported a lot of their material over the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway from the Intercolonial at Matapedia down over the Quebec and Eastern to New Carlisle, from Matapedia to New Carlisle being so unsatisfactory, they have entered into an agreement with Air. Scholes to utilize the deep water wharf at Gaspe to bring in supplies to Gaspe, which is connected with the Atlantic, Quebec and Western railway;
commons
and then they move their materials to Chandler over that road, which is in a good state, so that the Intercolonial is avoided entirely and loses all this traffic because of the state of the railway between the Intercolonial and the new Gaspe railway. I hope when the minister considers that the time has come-and it surely has come-when Gaspe should have proper connection with the Intercolonial, he will bear these points in mind. Gaspe is the oldest constituency in Quebec; it was there that Jacques Cartier stopped before he ever went to Quebec or Montreal; and the people there have been looking in vain for proper railway accommodation, and I trust the minister will see that they get it and get it under favourable terms. I trust he will also see that all the claims which the people have been seeking to recover, year in and year out, for the last 20 years will be paid-claims for time checks, right of way, board bills-, and accounts of various kinds. When the road is taken over, let us hope that this chapter will be finally closed to the satisfaction of the population in that district.


Francis Cochrane: When the time comes for taking over the road, I will certainly make that :a condition. Whether it is mortgaged up to the teeth or not, if they want to sell it to us they will have to pay these debts. I had a man go down to try to get a statement of the debts from the people themselves, and I think he now has it pretty fully prepared. In reference to the other point, as long as people can get shipping by water it is very hard for any railway to compete; but I can understand that if this branch of the road were put in proper order and this connection made by building the bridge so as to provide a line to the eastern States that way, we might possibly capture some traffic. I will certainly have the matter looked into. Financial conditions are such that we cannot do much this year, but that will not prevent us investigating and being ready when the time comes.


George Perry Graham: I notice the words:
Provided further no such railway shall be so constructed, leased, purchased or otherwise acquired unless it directly connects with the then existing Government railway system.


Francis Cochrane: That might prevent
what my hon. friend is talking about. These two roads are owned by two different people.


Charles Marcil: Yes, two different roads
connecting at New Carlisle-one 100 miles in length and one 102 miles in length.


George Perry Graham: They are too long and
do not absolutely connect. What is the definition of "directly"? Suppose a railway were on one side of the St. Lawrence river and the Government railways were on the other side and you had a railway ferry across, would that be direct connection?


Francis Cochrane: It might be, but not unless the ferry was there.


George Perry Graham: Take the city of Quebec. They have a ferry on which they take cars across. Would a railway starting in Quebec be considered as being in direct connection with the Intercolonial?


Francis Cochrane: There might be a point there.


George Perry Graham: I shall make it plainer. It has been stated in Montreal during the past week that certain railway arrangements have been made satisfactorily to the Government to do something with the Quebec and Montmorency railway-that the railway is going to be put in better condition and possibly pass into other hands. Under this section, if that railway ferry makes direct connection with the Intercolonial, that road could be taken over under this Act. What is the length of .that road?


Francis Cochrane: It is about 90 odd miles long.


George Perry Graham: It would depend altogether on what is meant by direct connection.


Francis Cochrane: Before the tunnels were built under the Detroit river my hon. friend would not say that the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific railway did not have direct connection between the two sides of the river. I am not arguing in reference to the road referred to, because I have not considered it.


George Perry Graham: I rather agree with the minister that that might be taken as a direct connection. Consequently this road might be taken over under this particular Act.


Francis Cochrane: I think not.


George Perry Graham: Has any suggestion been made that this road will be taken over?


Francis Cochrane: No.


George Perry Graham: It is a matter of some interest in Montreal. It was being dis-

cussed quite freely there the other day, and many business men in Montreal who were stockholders in this road were led to believe that it was going to be taken over.


Francis Cochrane: It has not come to me anyway.	-


Wilfrid Laurier: I understood
the other day that the Government policy was that this legislation was to apply only to branches of the Intercolonial.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3-to authorize the purchase of the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway:
Mr. COPP:: I would like to express, on behalf of the people of that section of Westmorland county, gratification that the Government has seen fit to enter into an agreement for the purchase of the New Brunswnck and Prince Edward Island railway. That is a branch line of railway that has been operated by a company for some thirty years from	Sackville to Cape
Tormentine, and during that time it has been allowed to get into a rather dilapidated condition, as the minister has said. It runs through settlements where there is quite a large traffic from lumber as well as from the agricultural community, and it also connects some rather thriving villages with the junction at Sackville. I am sure the people of that district will appreciate very much the fact that the Government is going to take over this road and make it part and parcel of the Intercolonial. I would urge on the minister that it is very necessary during the coming -season to improve the road. If we are going to have the car ferry across to the island, this road will require many improvements immediately. I believe that the road has been under operation by the Government since August 1st last. The only criticism I would offer would be that, unfortunately for the people living along a section of that road, the Government, since taking it over, have increased the freight rates. I do not think the company ran the road at a loss, and I cannot understand why it was necessary for the Government to increase the freight rates as high as 100 per cent in some cases. I should like the minister to look into the matter and see if he cannot put the rates back to what they were when the road was -operated by the company.


Francis Cochrane: I shall be very glad to look into it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock. SUPPLY.
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
Department of Railways and Canals-Intercolonial railway-Chaudi6re Junction to St. Romuald-double tracking, $30,000.
George Perry Graham: What is that for?


Francis Cochrane: We are doubletracking there. The contract was let to Soper and McDougall, and this is a re-vote of $30,000 to complete the contract.
Intercolonial railway-diversion of line between Nelson and Derby Junction, $6,000.


Mr. LOGGIE:: When the committee rose on Friday night, I had been referring the minister to the matter regarding the taking up of the rails on the south side of the Miramichi river and drawing his attention to the fact that the residents of that section of my county, who had enjoyed the privilege of a railway for some thirty or forty years, were still without an approach to the railway on the north side of the river. I intimated that the minister had made some promise regarding this matter last year. I find that it was not the minister who made the promise but the acting minister, the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid). Let me refer to the debate on that occasion as reported in Hansard, 1914, page 5112.
Mr. Loggie:	The minister on Friday last
said that:
" Bridges are now being built across the river, or it is intended to build them."
Who is intending to build them?
Mr. Pugsley:	He was more positive last
week than he is now.
Mr. Reid:	No. I,am just as positive nbw
that the bridges are to be built.
Then, on page 5113:
Is it not reasonable that, before final action is taken, the Minister of Railways and Canals should discuss the matter with the Provincial Government and see what is advisable to be done, whether this Government or the Provincial Government should build the bridges and where they should be located? That is the reason why it is very difficult for me to give definite information upon the matter or to arrive at a final decision.


Francis Cochrane: Who led them to believe that?


William Stewart Loggie: I would judge it was the Minister of Railways and Canals.


Francis Cochrane: I would like the hon. gentleman to prove it.


William Stewart Loggie: I cannot do any more than give the statement of the hon. member for St. John as quoted here and confirmed by my hon. friend from Gloucester (Mr. Tur-geon), who is reported at page 5113 to have said:
I remember the occasion when the Minister of Railways and Canals told the people of the locality that he proposed to take away that railway because it was, in his estimation, not a paying propositon, and that in compensation for the railway facilities he was taking away he would build a bridge, or two bridges -one for sure-across the river In order that the people might have connection between their homes and the station.


Francis Cochrane: Let me just say now that I never made that promise nor led them to believe any such thing.


William Stewart Loggie: Of course, I have to take what the minister says, but at the same time I think that the deputy minister and tlje acting minister a year ago did encourage me to believe that the matter would be favourably considered.


Francis Cochrane: Not in what you have read.


William Stewart Loggie: Well, I do not know. The hon. Minister of Customs said:
I am just as positive now that the bridges are to be built.


Francis Cochrane: He did not say by whom.


George Perry Graham: Who was he speaking for?


Francis Cochrane: I do not know whom he was speaking for.


William Stewart Loggie: I do not want to get into any controversy with my worthy friend the Minister of Railways and Canals; what I want him to do is to implement what I look upon as his promise. The minister has made a survey of the very places where the bridges are to be constructed. I want him to tell me if he can, what is the estimated cost of the substructures. Even if the local government should build the substructure, I am sure that his department will not object to supplying the superstructure, because they have old bridge material almost going to waste that would admirably suit this situation. The Government are not doing their duty to that locality, inasmuch as they have removed the railway, if they do not give these people an approach to the railway that they are now operating. The people of that portion of my county have been encouraged to believe that there would be a bridge built there and that they would have an approach to the railway that is being operated. I do not think that this Government should begrudge the money that it will take, and I hope they will take the matter into consideration and have the bridge constructed even if the local government pays the cost of the substructure. It would not be a very large outlay. The people whom they have deprived of the railway that they had been enjoying for so many years are surely deserving of consideration in this matter. I know the minister wants to be fair. The people were led to believe that these bridges would be constructed.
If the minister is not in favour of doing the entire work himself, he should at least implement the promise made by the acting minister last year, and supply the superstructure if. the local government would build the substructure. This is a very urgent matter, from my point of view, and I know I am stating the mind of my constituents when I press it upon the minister.


Francis Cochrane: I made an inspection of this branch and I found there would have to be two new bridges erected and that the road was not in a fit state to run trains upon. The service was not good on the road, and I found that most of the people going to Chatham and Newcastle crossed over the river and took the railway on the

other side. I did not consider there was traffic enough to warrant us going to the large expenditure necessary to put that road in proper shape. I do not want to have the hon. gentleman put words in my mouth, and I may tell him I never led the people to believe anything of the kind he says I did. I consulted Mr. Maloney, the mill-owner, and I asked him if we fixed the road and ran trains on it would he give us his traffic, and his reply was that if it suited him he would, but that if he could ship by boat he would do so. I do not blame him at all for it, because, of course, he was quite right, but the fact remained that there was not enough traffic on the road to justify its operation. I repeat that I did not give the people down there the promise that the hon. gentleman says I gave them. When I go on a special trip I have my secretary by me who makes a note of anything said by delegations, and consequently I am able to speak quite definitely on such matters as that. Sometimes the Federal Government may contribute to an interprovincial bridge, but it certainly is not the policy to contribute to bridges within the province. If our Highways Bill ever passes, we can take up the very kind of thing to which the hon. gentleman refers, because this may be one of the highways which it would be in the general interest to build. My hon. friend (Mr. Loggie) shakes his head, but he never yet has heard the scheme described which might be evolved from that measure, had it passed.
1 am not bringing that Bill in now, however, and there is no use in discussing it. I know nothing of surveys having been made, as the hon. gentleman says they were, but perhaps the work was done when I was away, and, therefore, I .cannot contradict my hon. friend. It is the province which should move in the matter and not this Government, and if the province sees its way to undertake any bridges which this Government might assist them in, I shall be glad to hear representations from the province in that respect.
Intercolonial railway-diversion of line between North Sydney and Leitche's Creek, $60000.


Mr. CARROLL:: What has been the increase in the freight rates from Sydney, on account of the construction of that line?


Francis Cochrane: I do not know; I have not the freight rates here.


William F. Carroll: This line is of course a great accommodation to the people of
Sydney Mines and Bras d'Or, but the freight rates have been very much increased since it was constructed, as I have been informed by business men in Sydney.


Francis Cochrane: The matter has not
been brought to my attention and I will look into it at once. As it would appear now there does not seem to be justification for it.


William F. Carroll: Neither do I think there is any justification for the increase, and I would be glad if the minister would makq a note of it and inform me.


Francis Cochrane: I will.


William F. Carroll: I am informed that the same freight rates are charged from Truro to Sydney, as from Antigonish to Sydney, although there is a difference in the haul of eighty miles. Does the hon. minister think that is fair?


Francis Cochrane: It would depend on
where the shipment comes from. I do not think it would be fair as regards local shipments, because I think there should be a somewhat higher charge for an extra haul of 80 miles.


William F. Carroll: I have been informed by a gentleman who was about to buy a horse at Truro, that the freight rate quoted to him for the carriage of that horse to Sydney was $7.20. He bought the horse in Antigonish, 80 miles away, and he had to pay a rate of $7.20. I do not think it is fair to the railway itself or to Antigonish and the points intervening between Truro and Sydney, that the same rates should be charged.


Francis Cochrane: You say that the rate on a horse from Antigonish to Sydney was the same as from Truro to Sydney?


William F. Carroll: Yes.


Francis Cochrane: Can you give me particulars as to the shipment?


William F. Carroll: The shipper.was Ronald AlcKeegan of Catalone Gut, Cape Breton county, and the waybill was dated January 20, No. 243, car 60460.


Francis Cochrane: I will inquire about
that.
Intercolonial Railway-general protection of highways, $16,000.


Francis Cochrane: This vote includes: Subway at Amherst, $9,000; subway west of Little Metis, $7,010.


George Perry Graham: Is the one at Moncton finished ?


Francis Cochrane: No.


George Perry Graham: How many level crossings have been done away with on the Intercolonial railway ?


Francis Cochrane: My official says that 20 have been done away with since I took office.


George Perry Graham: Some years ago an Act was passed for the elimination of level crossings. The Board of Railway Commissioners have power to recommend that a certain amount of the cost be paid by the municipalities, a certain amount by the Government and a certain amount by the road. The Intercolonial railway, as a Government road, should set a good example to the provincial municipalities in the matter of getting rid of level crossings.


William John Macdonald: I wish to call the minister's attention to the matter of calling for tenders for the coal- supply for the year. In a great many of the mines in Nova Scotia the men are working half time, and they are very anxious to know when the coal contracts are to be let. For years these contracts have always been let'at this time of the year, and I cannot see any reason why the minister should postpone the matter unduly. The department is a month late in asking for tenders;
I should like to know the reason for the delay.


Francis Cochrane: We have a large quantity on hand; that is why we have been slow in calling for tenders. As the hon. gentleman knows, I have been exceedingly busy this winter I am isorry to say that my deputy has -been sick nearly all winter, and my secretary, part of the time. Consequently, I have had more work to do than I would have had if these officials had been with me.


William John Macdonald: This matter would be reported upon by the management of the Intercolonial railway; they know how much coal they have on hand, and can estimate how much they will need. The calling for tenders is a matter that should be settled early in the season, particularly -this year, when navigation is somewhat difficult and vessels hard to get. Then, again, there is the question in which the men are interested: As to how much work they are going to be guaranteed this year. They are working half time in many of

the coal mining districts, and complaints aie coming from the representatives of the men in regard to the matter.
Mr. COCHRANE; It will not be long before we take the matter up.
Intercolonial railway-Halifax, docks and wharves, $30,000.


Francis Cochrane: This is to finish up pier No. 2.


George Perry Graham: It has nothing to do with the real terminal scheme?


Francis Cochrane: No.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN': Could the minister give me an explanation of a somewhat large amount which is in the Supplementary Estimates for Halifax docks ? Has that reference to the ocean terminals?


Francis Cochrane: This was carried on from last year and has been put in the Supplementary Estimates. This f30,000 completes pier No. 2.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This is for No. 2 pier? Mr. COCHRANE: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Have all the land damages been settled in Halifax?


Francis Cochrane: I do not think there were any land claims in connection with this work. On the big scheme they are not settled, by any means.
Intercolonial railway-Halifax, new terminal facilities, $3,000,000.


George Perry Graham: How much does the Government expect to spend to complete the terminals there?
Mr. COCHRANE That would be a little hard to say. The road down to the docks, the station, the sea wall, 2,000 feet long and the slip, have to be completed. The breakwater is well under way.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How much will be spent this year?


Francis Cochrane: 


George Perry Graham: I suppose when these terminals are completed they will have sufficient capacity to accommodate all railways that may go in there?


Francis Cochrane: Yes, that is the idea.


George Perry Graham: I suppose the Canadian Northern railway will eventually get there ?


Francis Cochrane: They have been discussing the question of obtaining running

rights or arranging for an interchange of traffic in the province of Quebec.


George Perry Graham: In reference to the guarantee of bonds, I think there is embodied in one of our statutes a provision whereby the Intercolonial may enter into some arrangement to this end with the Canadian Northern. So they will have to get there in some way to complete their lines. There are the 'Canadian Northern railway, the Transcontinental, the Canadian Pacific railway, and the Intercolonial railway.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I understand that these terminals are of sufficient capacity to accommodate all the traffic that will come to Halifax?


Francis Cochrane: When the whole
scheme is laid out it will accommodate all the roads that will come in for a number of years. But I do not know that the works that are now under contract will do that.


George Perry Graham: This is only one unit?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: And I suppose the
Government is keeping in its own hands the right to regulate the terms made with these other roads coming in?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: This being Government property, and the Intercolonial railway having possession, the other .railways will come in under approximately the same terms?


Francis Cochrane: \es.


George Perry Graham: That being the case, if traffic increases as it ought to increase, I think the Government is not making much of a mistake in going a little ahead of the traffic. By letting the contract for one unit, and with plans for others, I imagine the Government will be able to keep up with the traffic as it increases.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: The point I ask definitely is this-will the right of all railways be protected? Outside of the Intercolonial railway, will the other roads be brought in on practically equal terms, so that one will not have an advantage over the other?


Francis Cochrane: Everybody will be
treated alike.


George Perry Graham: I suppose the country is committed a little more to the National Transcontinental than to the other lines?


Francis Cochrane: Something similar to the Intercolonial railway itself.


George Perry Graham: So that the Intercolonial railway will be the Government end of the Transcontinental ?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: Of course, the sum is a large one to expend, especially this year, when dollars look much larger than they do when revenues are buoyant. But, personally, I should think the Government is taking the right stand in preparing for future traffic, and, while having plans for extension, to complete only one unit. We shall be disappointed in this country if we do not have traffic enough going to our maritime ports to use the greater portion of these facilities.


Francis Cochrane: The whole new
scheme covers accommodation for thirty boats at one time.


George Perry Graham: That will be three units.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: To be finished only as
trade increases?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the department under immediate consideration the proposal to connect the railway system at Dartmouth and the railway system on the Halifax side with a bridge?


Francis Cochrane: We have not done
any more than talk it over; we have not done anything practically. I have been wmiting to find out if there is enough traffic on that new Dartmouth-Deans road to make it worth while. I am not familiar enough with the country there to know what the traffic is likely to be.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: You are not likely to
make an early commencement on that project?	-


Francis Cochrane: Not this year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: If members of the Government come to Halifax within the next few months and make statements about the early construction of this bridge, I shall be justified in saying that they are unofficial and unjustified?


Francis Cochrane: I have made my statement, and I cannot help what others may say.


John Howard Sinclair: When the station at the south end is open, is it intended to close the north station?


Francis Cochrane: I think likely that
station will be closed, but we shall have to keep our facilities for freight there. I do not see the necessity for two stations.


George Perry Graham: There was a disagreement at one time between the Intercolonial railway and another railway about the use of our station in Halifax.


Francis Cochrane: The Halifax and Southwestern .


George Perry Graham: Something of that kind.
Did that ever get straightened out?


Francis Cochrane: No, they owe us quite a sum. We are trying not to let them get in any deeper.
Intercolonial railway-Halifax-to increase accommodation and provide machinery at, $3,500.


George Perry Graham: Does that mean shops at Halifax?


Francis Cochrane: It means some track
changes there.
Intercolonial railway-Halifax-Willow Park sewer, $14,900.


Francis Cochrane: This sewer emptied
where the new harbour facilities are being provided, and we had to change the outlet.


George Perry Graham: I see the Government
spent $100 there last year.


Francis Cochrane: That was for a survey. The contract was not let then.


George Perry Graham: Do you intend to spend it all this year?


Francis Cochrane: We will have to, I
think.
Intercolonial railway-Hampton-subway and facilities at, $39,750.


Francis Cochrane: This is a re-arrangement of the tracks to provide proper switching facilities; also the subway will eliminate a dangerous crossing.


George Perry Graham: You did not spend much on that last year,


Francis Cochrane: No, we shut down on nearly everything last year.
Intercolonial railway-installation of block system in connection with operation, $14,000.


George Perry Graham: I am sure it would be
of interest to the public to know how much of the line is under the block system. And does the minister use any of these signals that we see advertised? I know that gentlemen waited on the department to have

danger signals introduced connected with the block system.


Francis Cochrane: I do not know what
system my hon. friend refers to. Anything of that kind that is brought to my notice, I refer to the engineers on the ground, because they .know about these things and I do not. The people in this case are the General Railway Signal Company of Canada, Limited, of Lachine, Que. The portions of the road under the block signal system are from St. John to Hampton; Moncton to Painsec Junction, and Windsor Junction to Halifax. These are the three most crowded portions of the line.


George Perry Graham: How many miles altogether? Will the minister make inquiry about that?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: Without attempting to claim credit, I may say that in discussing railway matters, particularly in the province in which I live, I try to make the situation of the Intercolonial railway clear even since my hon. friend the present minister has mixed it up. I have endeavoured to point out to the people in the other provinces that the Intercolonial railway was not the drag that they had sometimes been led to believe, but that it was a good piece of property.


Francis Cochrane: I believe that.


George Perry Graham: And I have tried to do that no matter which Government was in power, in defence of our own Government railways, because I believe that the Inter- ' colonial railway has been largely misunderstood for many years and that the money we have been putting into it "has not been sunk but will bring a return. I want this information so that in discussing the Inter-[DOT]colonial as a national undertaking, a national property, I can tell the people how many miles are run on the most modern block system. I think it would be well if I could have that information.


Francis Cochrane: I shall have that information to-morrow. If I had a time-table I could at once give the distances. This is to finish the sections which are now being equipped in this way.
Intercolonial railway-installation of telephone system in connection with operation $100,000.


Mr. McKENZIE:: What is this installation of a telephone system?


Francis Cochrane: It ia for a telephone system between Moncton and Ste. Rosalie Junction. The most modem way of operating a railroad is by telephone; it is considered much safer. Only part of this Was spent last year. I hope to complete the work this year.


William F. Carroll: Is it the intention to install this all over the line in time?


Francis Cochrane: As soon as we can.


George Perry Graham: The Government will own this telephone system?


Francis Cochrane: 
Francis Cochrane: Unfortunately our station at Levis was burned last fall. We want to change it around, and will have to buy a little property. We hope to secure better accommodation both for the ferry and for the town.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is this sum all for the improvement of the station?


Francis Cochrane: The station and the additional land we have to buy-facilities in connection with the station.
Intercolonial railway-Moncton locomotive and power shops, with equiimient, $110,000.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: This is a big jump from Levis to Moncton, jumping over Riviere du Loup. I do not see why there is nothing for Riviere du Loup in this estimate. Is the minister ready to tell me what he intends to do for Riviere du Loup this summer?


Francis Cochrane: You mean in connection with the track from the proposed wharf?


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I should like to know what the minister has in mind to do for Riviere du Loup, and then I shall have some questions to put. .


Francis Cochrane: I do not think there
is anything in the Estimates for it.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: There is $50,000 in
the Public Works Estimates for improvement of the harbour. If I am not mistaken, last year the Minister of Railways and Canals was ready to help the "Public Works Department in connection with the unloading of coal at Riviere du Loup for the Intercolonial railway. Is there any prospect that next summer something will be done by the
Minister of Railways to help the Public Works Department in that scheme?


Francis Cochrane: There has been a development of coal in New Brunswick and the policy of the Intercolonial has been changed to some extent in consequence. We feel that we can buy coal in New Brunswick as cheaply as we can buy it in Nova Scotia, and I understand that we can deliver it cheaper from New Brunswick than we could get it done by boats, as we would have to rail it up from the station. Our coal at Levis, for instance, costs us more than coa.' costs the Grand Trunk or Canadian Pacific railway at Montreal, as our facilities are not what they should be, and it takes us much longer to unload, and they charge demurrage. Taking into consideration everything,
I do not think there would be enough coal brought to Riviere du Loup to warrant our expending $75,000 or $100,000 to install an unloading plant. I think we could better afford to bring the coal from New Brunswick.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Do I understand that the minister has abandoned the plan to have coal unloaded at Riviere du Loup.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Then the Department of Public Works are to proceed alone with the scheme for the improvement of the harbour.


Francis Cochrane: As far as we are concerned, I have given my explanation.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Will the minister explain what it is proposed to do at Moncton? Is this an extension of the present dock?


Francis Cochrane: It is the installation of a power plant, and of new equipment and a rearrangement of the machinery. I do not think it is for increased buildings so much as for increased power.


Arthur Bliss Copp: You have not been building cars to any extent at Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: Only in slack times.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is it the intention to build
more cars at Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: That policy has not
been decided, because 1 am told the cars cost more than we can buy them for, although I do not know that that is a good reason for not building them. We are short of power down there, and w^nt to increase it. No matter who runs the Transcontin-

ental railway, we must have a good deal of work there. There is not much of a shop in connection with the Transcontinental there. But even for our own work we have not enough power there at present.


George Perry Graham: Is that for new buildings?


Francis Cochrane: It is part of the power scheme, and for rearranging the equipment.


George Perry Graham: It says " locomotive and car shops ". Is the Government building any locomotives there?


Francis Cochrane: No, we never have
done so.


George Perry Graham: I think the Government has built some refrigerator cars, vans and that sort of thing down there. The Government has never tried to build passenger cars there?


Francis Cochrane: Only second-class. We have ordered some steel this year to see how they can work down there.


George Perry Graham: This question has often
been discussed before, but I know it is not easy to work out. Owing to the greater speed at which things go nowadays, railways and everything else, some of the larger companies are trying to do away with their wooden cars and use all-steel cars instead. Are we having steel cars made for the Intercolonial railway?


Francis Cochrane: We have steel frames. Our wooden cars, when they go to the United States, get mixed up with steel cars there, and when they get home enormous repairs have to be made. We shall have to cut them out altogether in future and not run them over there at all. We are making steel-frame freight cars now.


George Perry Graham: Has the Government
purchased any passenger cars recently?


Francis Cochrane: We are buying twelve this year; some of steel, and some of steel finished in wood. We are buying some of each to see how they work out. The allsteel cars cost about $250 apiece more than the steel-and-wood cars.
Intercolonial railway-Moncton-elimination level crossings and grades, $125,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is this to de.al with the crossing on Main street, Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: This is to finish the
one they are working at now. The contract has already been let.


Arthur Bliss Copp: A return I got the other day showed that the contract price "'as $45,000, I think.


Francis Cochrane: I have the particulars here: Subway superstructure, $21,000; substructure, $63,100 ; 4,500 sq. yards paving, $15,750; supporting track, 2,500 lin. feet, $1,120; 26,500 ft. b.m. hard pine, $1,590; 2,000 lbs. iron in trestle, $60; labour placing girders, $200; concrete platform and baggage room floor, $9,000. There are several other items, so my hon. friend will see there is a tremendous lot of work to do besides the excavation for which the contract has been let.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Was my hon. friend reading from the contract that has been let, or was that the estimate?


Francis Cochrane: The estimate is that it will take $125,000 to finish up the whole thing. The contract that has been let is not for the whole work.	*


Arthur Bliss Copp: The $45,000 relates to the contract that has been let.


Francis Cochrane: Yes, the total cost. There will have to be some change made around the station; otherwise we shall have to spend a great deal more money.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is it the intention of the department to eliminate the crossings just a little beyond the city?


Francis Cochrane: that scheme is being worked out. I think an arrangement has been made with the Moncton council. I am not very familiar with it, but I think it is settled that we are to change the whole thing. Several crossings have to be attended to, but we are not going on with them this year because we cannot get the money.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This $125,000 is necessary to complete that?


Francis Cochrane: Yes, and what other changes are necessary?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the minister decided whether to ask for tenders for this work, or is the railway going to do it?


Francis Cochrane: I have not considered that yet.
Intercolonial railway, Monoton-installation of roofing, $22,500.


Francis Cochrane: The cement roof down there gave us a great deal of trouble in the winter season. It sweats and drops down on the machinery and the men. We had to take it up in instalments and put

insulated roofing underneath.
9 p.m. The cement roof did not prove satisfactory on account of weather conditions.


George Perry Graham: It did not turn out the success we expected.
Intercolonial railway-Mulgrave-to provide new car ferry and dock for same, $354,000.


John Howard Sinclair: There is a good deal
of interest felt in eastern Nova Scotia over this question. The minister is aware that the car service across the Strait of Canso is now being handled by a single boat, and that any accident to it would disorganize the whole business of the Island of Cape Breton, which is where the largest part of the traffic of eastern Nova Scotia originates.
I was very pleased when the minister took this matter up two years ago and put in a vote for $354,000, but the delay in getting this duplicate boat is very disappointing. It has been a long time on the way. 1 should like some explanation from the minister as to what progress is being made and when the boat will be ready for service.


Francis Cochrane: The boat would have
been ready now but the War Office commandeered the yard and put our boat off the stocks. I am in hopes that it will be along in the next two or three months. I know the danger of having only one boat there,and have urged upon the manufacturers the necessity of having the boat completed as soon as possible. We shall leave no stone unturned to get it there.


John Howard Sinclair: Wh^t about the dock?
Is it proposed to build a new dock on the Mulgrave side?


Francis Cochrane: We shall have to
change the docks so as to accommodate both boats.


John Howard Sinclair: Has any progress
been made in providing docking facilities?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Have plans been prepared?


Francis Cochrane: I think so, but I have not got them here. I can send the information to my hon. friend before the House closes.
Intercolonial railway-permanent farm crossings and culverts, $10,000.


George Perry Graham: How many will there be
of these?


Francis Cochrane: The expenditure will be divided as follows: No. 1 district, Montreal
to Mount Joli, $3,500; No. 2 district, $3,500; No. 3 district, $1,500; No. 4 district, $1,500.
Intercolonial railway-power plants-Increased facilities at divisional points, $23,000.


George Perry Graham: These works will have to be carried on at the different divisional points?


Francis Cochrane: Yes, at Riviere du Loup, Chaudiere Junction, Mount Joli, etc.


George Perry Graham: Mount Joli?


Francis Cochrane: That used to be Ste. Flavie.
Intercolonial railway-Pugswash, spur line -Pugwash Harbour, $5,000.


George Perry Graham: Will that complete it?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the total amount that was spent on that spur line?


Francis Cochrane: 


John Howard Sinclair: Is it in operation?


Francis Cochrane: It is not in operation; there is a small bridge yet to finish.


John Howard Sinclair: Will this amount finish the bridge?


Francis Cochrane: This finishes the work.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it intended that a daily service will be given on that line?


Francis Cochrane: I do not know that it will run to Pugwash, but it may.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is there a spur line from the main line down to the wharf?


Francis Cochrane: There is a spur into the brickyard there.


George Perry Graham: Whose brickyard?


Francis Cochrane: I forget the name of the company.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Who owns the brickyard?


Mr. RHODES:: The Nova Scotia Clay Works.


Arthur Bliss Copp: While we are on this item I might as well say a word or two, as I cannot find an item in the Estimates that I expected to find in regard to the building of a spur line to the Sackville wharf. We had in Sackville for a number of years a somewhat dilapidated wharf, and after a great struggle we induced the Government to build a new wharf. The contract was let in 1909, the wharf was partly built in 1910, and it was

very nearly completed at the time of the change of Government in September, 1911. The present Government went on and completed the wharf, and there were some extras allowed. It cost somewhere in the vicinity of $40,000. Owing to the fact that there was some difficulty about the people of the locality agreeing , on the location of the wharf, it was delayed some years, but after careful surveys had been made by the engineers all along the river they decided on building the "new wharf 300 or 400 yards westward of the old wharf. There was a spur line from the Sackville station to the old wharf. The New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway had built a small wharf alongside of the public wharf that was owned by the municipality of Westmorland. This new wharf was built at a cost of $40,000, but when it was completed there was no road to it. The Government have, during the last three years, I believe, partially constructed a highway to it, but it is not yet completed. It is three years practically since the wharf was completed and there has never "been a team to it or a vessel tied to it because there is no access to it.


Francis Cochrane: Who is building the road?	.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I think the Dominion Government.


Francis Cochrane: The Department of Public Works?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Probably the Department of Public Works. The point I want to make is: There was some difficulty-I do not know how it originated-between some individuals in regard to this wharf. As a result of. that, for three years we have had a splendid wharf ready for service to that particular part of Westmorland county, but we have had no road to it and we have had no railway facilities in connection with it. . As the minister knows, owing to the work going on at Cape Tormentine, the shippers of lumber were debarred from using the wharf there. The result was that they had to carry their lumber over the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway. But they had no wharf accommodation owing to the fact that vessels of any size could not get to the wharf at all.


Francis Cochrane: To the new wharf?


Arthur Bliss Copp: No, to the old wharf. The new one is farther down the river. There is a bend in the river and this new wharf [Mr Copp.]
is built where you can get straight out to the river. After the Government has spent $40,000 on that wharf, it is only due to the town that the Railway Department should build a spur' line to the wharf. I believe the surveys show and it will only cost about $12,000 for a short spur line down to this splendid and commodious wharf. If the minister would look carefully into the matter himself and not allow little factional elements to influence him he would say that the people of Sackville deserve that spur line. I trust the minister will give me his assurance that the matter will be attended to this coming season.


Francis Cochrane: What would be the
length of the spur?


Arthur Bliss Copp: Speaking from memory, it
would be about 400 or 500 yards.


Francis Cochrane: I shall look into the matter myself the first time I am down there.	'


Arthur Bliss Copp: I thank the minister.


John Howard Sinclair: Last session the minister took a vote for $69,000 to build a spur line to Wallace harbour. Has that spur line been built, and if not why not?


Francis Cochrane: I am informed by my officials that they are endeavouring to make an arrangement with the coal company, as we wish to have some assurance as to the traffic.


John Howard Sinclair: That item has been
dropped from the Estimates this year; is it the intention of the minister to build that spur?


Francis Cochrane: Not now.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Does my hon. friend object to the expenditure on this spur line?


John Howard Sinclair: No, but I was wondering how it was that having voted the money last year it was not expended, and I also noted that it has been dropped from the Estimates this year. Last year I understood the minister gave reasons why that spur line should be built, and I was curious to know why he had dropped it.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This is a matter which
affects my constituency, and it is only fair that 1 should say that I have been following it with the greatest care. It was proposed in the first instance, after a conference between the Government and the Dominion Coal Company, that a spur line should be built to the town of Wallace.

The idea was to bring coal from the collieries at Spring Hill over the spur line to deepwater on the Northumberland strait, and thence by the St. Lawrence river to the Montreal market. Shortly after a tentative arrangement had been made with the Government, there was unfortunately a fire of somewhat serious proportions in the mines, with the result that instead of seeking more markets the mines were unable to supply sufficient coal for the contracts on hand. Because of the restricted output, the idea of shipments via the Strait of Northumberland and the St. Lawrence to Montreal was held in abeyance. I believe the company is now increasing its output to a very marked extent, and my information from the officials of the company is that they purpose carrying out the proposed arrangement, and probably before very long they will be before the Government again, seeking the construction of this spur line. If is only fair to add that the agreement ip question called upon the company to expend the sum of approximately $100,000 for the purpose of constructing a pier. The engagement of the Government involves the construction of this spur line of railway, and in return for the expenditure the Government had a contract with the company which called for the shipment of a minimum of 200,000'tons of coal per annum, at a minimum rate per ton sufficient to refund the Government interest upon the cost of construction .of this spur. I am very much interested in the project, because apart from its merits for the purpose I have mentioned, this branch line would be a great convenience to a very prosperous district in my constituency. I am exceedingly anxious that the road should be built, as I believe the coal company is also, and I hope that in the very near future the item will be found in the Estimates again.
Intercolonial railway-raising grade between Memramcook and Sackville, $3,500.


Francis Cochrane: This is to bring the road up beyond high tide, and several thousand yards of ballast are required.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I thinly as a matter of fact, * the tide goes over the railway at Memramcook and at Sackville. Last summer and autumn there were quite a large number of engineering parties going through the woods between Painsec junction- and Sackville, and it was thought that the idea was to select a new route for a road over the Memramcook or Dorchester hills.


Francis Cochrane: These parties were
making surveys with the idea of getting a double track in the future. Several routes have been tried and none of them so far has proved satisfactory.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If the. minister again sends engineering parties out through the woods there, he had better notify the people, because last fall they caused great alarm as the people thought they were going to be routed out of their homes.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That is no doubt due to the fact that the Liberal Administration always sent its surveying parties through the Maritime Provinces on the eve of a general election. They have not yet come to understand the practice of the present Administration, who make a genuine survey even when no election was in sight.


George Perry Graham: Oh, no, you expected an election last fall.	h
Intercolonial railway-rolling stock, $2,250,000.


George Perry Graham: How is this money to be expended ?


Francis Cochrane: It is to be expended on applying super-heat to twelve locomotives, for 10 Pacific type passenger locomotives, 6 consolidated freight locomotives, 4 switching locomotives, ballasting equipment and rail-loaders, 200 steel flat cars, and 250 steel gondola cars. ' Then, there are four light wrecking cranes; and a re-vote for 8 sleeping-cars,
4 steel" sleeping-cars, 4 baggage cars, 2 postal cars, 1 scale-testing car, and 1 motor inspection car.


George Perry Graham: The department had a system under which a certain amount was taken from the earnings each year, and placed to the credit of named accounts-[DOT] rail equipment, car renewal and fire insurance. Have these accounts been kept up, and do any of these amounts come out of these accounts?


Francis Cochrane: I am sorry to say they have not been kept up. I had intended to tell the hon. gentleman whether he had asked it or not. There did not seem to be any object, when you are losing money, to put money away. Better come out and acknowledge the condition.


George Perry Graham: So, in addition to the deficit on the Intercolonial railway, there is a large deficiency that did not exist in other years on this account.


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: I am not criticising, but it is well to know the situation. I admit that it would show no particular business ability to put money away in one account and then borrow on another. As a matter of fact, however, besides the $83,000 of deficit as on January 31, there is-


Francis Cochrane: Yes, the deficiency on these accounts will run about half a million.


George Perry Graham: Will any of these cars be built in Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: Some of the baggage cars will be. When the House is figuring up the position of the railway, I may remind hon. members of what I formerly stated that if we were in a position to curtail expenses, there are 3,000 men whose services could be dispensed with, which would represent $6,000 a day. And as there have been over 200 days since this depression began, it will be seen that if we could do as other railways do-and we can't-we should be able to pay up this half million and have a' small surplus besides.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This seems to be a pretty large expenditure in connection with rolling stock. I do not mean that it is large in comparison with other expenditures, or that it is not a proper expenditure. As I said the other day, I do not claim to be an expert in railway matters; but I think it would be a very proper thing, if this item passes, as no doubt it will, for the minister to make at least an attempt to provide more work at the general headquarters of the railway in the city of Moncton. I understand the Intercolonial railway owns a very large area of land there where the new shops were erected some years ago on the destruction of the old shops. Moncton is the terminus of the National Transcontinental as well as the headquarters of the Intercolonial railway; further, there are large number of men in that vicinity who are railway men. And I contend that, where you have the capital, the land and the facilities work should be concentrated. It would be of great advantage to the city of Moncton and to the surrounding country as well. I know myself that there are a large number of men who are experts in the car-building business, having been working in the near-by town of Amherst. My hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) will bear me out in saying that there is no work for these men, and that if

they could be occupied at their own calling they would be able to build ears at Moncton, I believe, as cheaply as those cars could be purchased elsewhere. I believe it is only fair to the railway that this should be done. We shall have the same expense for upkeep, and the foremen, general managers and officials of the Intercolonial railway could oversee a great deal more work than is being done at the city of Moncton now. I cannot see any reason why cars cannot be built in the city of Moncton as cheaply as they can be built elsewihere; I am sure that our working people as well as those dependent on the trade coming from working people, would appreciate the efforts of the department very much. I think it would be only right for the minister to give this matter his attention, to see if he cannot build more cars at Moncton.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not wish to claim the attention of the committee at any length, but I cannot sit quietly in my place and hear the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Copp) figure out that, in view of the fact that industrial conditions are very quiet in the neighbouring constituency of Cumberland, and men there are out of employment, they should be given employment in the constituency of Westmorland. Rather, I take it, the argument would be that the Government should contract for the construction of cars in the town of Amherst. I note my hon. friend's admission that he does not know anything about railways. I think he is quite right; and I will admit the same with regard to myself.	With us as participants, the
discussion would be largely academic, and I	do not	feel that	we
should take up the time of , the committee. But when we discuss the advantage of constructing cars in Westmorland, I am sure that the hon. gentleman, knowing the conditions, will admit that while a corporation or group of individuals might construct cars in Moncton as well as elsewhere the Government employees, under conditions that exist in Moncton, could not construct them as cheaply.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Why?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. gentleman need not cross-question me. But if he were frank, and had in mind the public interest rather than the interest of his own candidature, he would admit that conditions in the Government works at Moncton are such as not to call for the greatest efficiency in construction. The policy of large railway cor

porations in Canada and the United States in recent years has been to get away from the construction of rolling stock and to content themselves entirely with the repairs of such rolling stock as happens to be out of repair on their lines. They find that they can purchase cars in the open market from companies that make a specialty of manufacturing cars, more cheaply than they can manufacture them, having regard to the circumstance that the manufacture of cars by their own corporation would be, at best, only a side line and they would not be able to make a specialty of it as would a company peculiarly in the car construction business.
If the hon. gentleman wishes me to suggest some method whereby the condition of unemployment in his neighbouring constituency may be remedied at the tnoment, I would say that perhaps the best method to pursue would be to make a contract for the manufacture of cars in the town of Amherst.


Mr. A. A. MACLEAN:: With a view to settling the dispute which seems to have arisen between two hon. gentlemen as to where these cars should be built, I would suggest to the minister that the cars be constructed in the city of Charlottetown. We have in that city one of the best equipped shops that can be found in America, and we have a large number of skilled workmen who are well adapted to the work of building cars. Furthermore, we have just as much right to have those cars constructed in Prince Edward Island as these hon. gentlemen have to have them constructed in either of their respective constituencies. These hon. gentlemen assume to have a monopoly of the whole Intercolonial railway from Sydney to Montreal. One would think that the hon. member for Westmorland and the hon. member fir Cumberland control the whole thing, and that no one else should have a show; that the cars should not be built anywhere except in their constituencies. I would ask the hon. minister to take my suggestion into serious consideration.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My attention was particularly drawn to this matter when I saw in the press of Amherst a report that the town council held a special meeting not long ago to consider what they were going to do with the unemployed in Amherst, and the suggestion was made that the local Government give assistance to the town of Amherst in order to provide employment during the period of hard 107
times. It was only as a matter of kindness that I suggested that the men be taken to Moncton and be given profitable employment so that they should not be thrown on the mercies of their town or province. It is not a matter between myself and the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes). I do not say that the problem could be solved at once, but I do think that the Government should make the experiment. The cars can be built at Moncton as cheaply as they can be built anywhere; the head offices are there; the railway men are there; it is a railway centre. Large numbers of our good men have been employed in the town of Amherst in the building of cars, and they are special artists in that line. I should be glad indeed if they were taken to the city of Moncton and allowed to pursue their vocation there, and to earn a living for themselves and for their families. I believe that this would be an advantage to the Intercolonial railway as well, and I hope that the matter will be taken seriously into consideration by the minister.


John Howard Sinclair: I have here an envelope that was sent to me by a gentleman who is interested in the made-in-Canada propaganda. This is an envelope which is used by the Intercolonial railway. Endorsed on the back are the words, " Canadian Government Railways, Moncton, N.B." I find on looking inside the envelope a private mark indicating that the envelope is manufactured in the city of Chicago by the Transo Paper Company, and that it was patented August 9, 1904.


Francis Cochrane: Is this kind of envelope manufactured in Canada?


John Howard Sinclair: I want to get information on that point.


Francis Cochrane: I understand that it
is not.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister will know whether it is made in Canada or not. It has the Chicago stamp on it in two different places.


Francis Cochrane: I ask the hon. gentleman if an envelope like that is made in Canada.


John Howard Sinclair: I cannot tell the minister that, but I do not think the envelope makers of Canada should have any trouble in making an envelope like this. It is a very simple envelope and could be made, I presume,, anywhere. I am quite sure that



finer envelopes than this are made in Canada. I merely wanted to inquire whether it is really the fact that the Minister of Railways, whose party professes to be very much interested in this made-in-Canada propaganda, is buying his envelopes in the United States. It is known that the minister imports from the United State a great many of the men he employs on the road, but he may consider that to be necessary. I do not believe, however, that it is necessary to import the envelopes.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If my hon. friend is a
free trader, has he any objection to the purchasing of envelopes in the United States? In case he was not here the other evening, I may say that the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark) said that the propaganda of encouraging the purchasing of things made in Canada was stupid. I think the hon. gentleman should be the last person in the world to object to the Government purchasing envelopes in the United States.


John Howard Sinclair: I am not objecting to
what the Government is doing; but I want to point out that a government which professes to support the made-in-Canada propaganda should not purchase envelopes manufactured in the United States.


Francis Cochrane: Similar envelopes are
not made in Canada; I do not know why. When they are, I will buy them in Canada.


Charles Marcil: Is the rolling stock made in Canada?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.
Intercolonial railway-safety appliances for equipment, $24,000.


Charles Marcil: I urged upon the minister last year the advisability of looking into the question of constructing a subway at Matapedia, where the trains shunt close to the station. I am told that the crossing there is very dangerous. I suggested to the minister last year that it might be to the advantage of the railway and of the public to construct a subway. Has the matter been looked into at all?


Francis Cochrane: I admit that this is a dangerous crossing, and must be attended to as soon as possible.


Charles Marcil: Has the construction of a subway been favourably reported upon?


Francis Cochrane: Yes; the railway officials recognize that it is a dangerous crossing and must be attended to.


Mr. GERMAN:: What are these safety
appliances?


Francis Cochrane: It is new equipment
similar to that which the Interstate Commerce Commission has ordered on all freight cars in the United States. The Canadian Railway Commfssion has ordered their use on other Canadian roads, and the Government road is following that up. I cannot just at the moment give the technical description of these safety appliances.
Intercolonial railway-Mont Joli-(formerly Ste. Flavie)-to increase accommodation, $16,500.


Charles Marcil: What is that for?


Francis Cochrane: The amount asked for is for straightening the main line, and providing proper switching leads to facilitate switching, constructing additional platform accommodation at station, providing siding for loading potatoes, and removing track scale from present location (which is the centre of a busy yard) to track at west end, which will reduce largely the amount of switching now necessary in using scales.


Charles Marcil: The hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) complained that labourers around Ste. Flavie received ten cents a day less than those in New Brunswick.


Francis Cochrane: I will make a note and inquire.
Intercolonial railway-St. John-spur line to Courtenay bay, $112,000.


William Pugsley: Has any work been done upon this spur line? Appropriations have been made more than once in the past. Why has the delay occurred?


Francis Cochrane: The delay has occurred -owing to the war. We filed expropriation papers before the war broke out, and this is to pay for the land; we think the people should get the money for their land.


William Pugsley: When Parliament was asked to consent to increased taxes, these improvements and the necessity for them generally were given as one of the reasons whythese increased taxes shouldbe imposed. It was alleged that it was intended to go on with all these public works. Now my hon. friend says that the matter has been delayed. Does he intend to proceed this year with this work?


Francis Cochrane: This is to pay for the right of way. We are not doing any other work in connection with it.


William Pugsley: Has the minister a
statement of the prices? It strikes me as being a very large amount to pay for the right of way, from my knowelge of the district.


Francis Cochrane: Land seems to very high in St. John. The estimated value of land damages is shown and also the expenses in connection with the transfer.


William Pugsley: The spur is a very necessary work.


Francis Cochrane: The works at Courtenay bay are not in such shape as to be used to aitg great extent.


William Pugsley: The present approach to Courtenay bay by rail is very dangerous, The line goes right through a settled part of the city, and this new spur is necessary irrespective of the Courtenay Bay work. Would the minister lay a statement of the damages to be paid to the different owners and the names of the valuators on the table?


Francis Cochrane: I would not object to laying a statement of what they ask, but not a statement of what we think they are worth.


William Pugsley: That is what I want.


Francis Cochrane: Oh, no. I may have
to go to the Exchequer court for this.
Intercolonial railway-Sydney mines diversion, $10,000.
Air. AIcKENZIE: What is that for?


Francis Cochrane: This is for the completion to pay right of way claims, general cleaning up of the line, improving the foundation of a culvert at Florence, and survey and preparation of plans.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the minister's attention been brought to the desirability of making an overhead crossing at Florence? It was at first intended to make an over head crossing there. There is a very heavy traffic right through the town.


Francis Cochrane: How high would the
cutting be?
Air. AIcKENZIE:	When the road was
constructed the engineer told me that the only safe way was to put an overhead crossing there, but I have heard nothing of it since.


Francis Cochrane: I will make a note of it.
Air. AIcKENZIE: The level of the track is probably six feet below the level of the road, and there must always be a danger-1074
ous crossing. It was also thought that an overhead crossing would be put at the head of the bridge at Little Bras d'Or. I understand an engine and a train crew are kept at North	Sydney	for use in	connectionwith shunting	and	traffic	betweenSydney	Alines	and	North	Sydney.I think that as a matter of business that engine with a few cars could run a trip from Little Bras d'Or to North Sydney on Saturday nights. It could leave Little Bras d'Or about five in the evening, and run through Florence	and Sydney	Mines	to North
Sydney. Coming back it could leave about ten in the evening. It is only a distance of five or six miles. This accommodation is given every other night in the week by regular trains. The express comes in about seven o'clock and carries the people into these towns, and the other train leaving about 9.30 or 10 gives the accommodation coming back. But on Saturday night, when people most want to get into town, there is no service at all. I think this little train could be run without very much extra expense because the locomotive and crew are there, and no doubt a few spare cars. If they would make this little trip, leaving Little Bras d'Or about five in the evening and going back between nine or ten very excellent accommodation would be afforded the towns, and I think it would be a paying venture for the railway.


Francis Cochrane: It would be a run of 28 miles altogether.
Air. AIcKENZIE: Not more than 12 miles; it would be 6 each way.


Francis Cochrane: But they would have
to make the round trip twice, which would make it 24 miles. We should have to pay the men a day's wages, I think.
Air. AIcKENZIE: I think the men work till eleven o'clock every night anyway. They have to stay on.


Francis Cochrane: I will make a note and look into it. *
Intercolonial railway-to increase accommodation and facilities along the line, $102,000.


George Perry Graham: What is this for?


Francis Cochrane: This is to meet deferred payments, and to complete work already undertaken. It covers Chaudiere Junction, Fredericton, Bathurst, Amherst, Campbeli-ton, Millerton, Rimouski, Matapedia, and right on down to Orangedale.
1700 -


Charles Marcil: Is the work at Matapedia in connection with the freight shed?


Francis Cochrane: Yes, extending the freight shed facilities
Intercolonial - 'Trenton - increased facilities at, $20,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What is that for?


Francis Cochrane: The station is in a dilapidated condition beyond repair. It is also too small to handle the business.


John Howard Sinclair: It is proposed to build a new station?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.
Intercolonial railway-water supply-to increase, $27,300.


Charles Marcil: Have arrangements been completed at Matapedia for a water supply to some of the citizens?


Francis Cochrane: I think an agreement has been entered into.


Charles Marcil: The last information I had was that the lease had not been completed.


Francis Cochrane: I think it is signed, though I am not positive. The Order in Council has been passed authorizing it.


Charles Marcil: On a former occasion I asked that a certain quantity of hose be kept at Matapedia station, and
10 p.m. I think a promise was made to that effect. I am informed there is no hose there now, and that would make it very bad in case of fire, for the buildings of the Intercolonial railway and the village are all huddled together. They have had about three fires already. I think it would be wise to have a good long piece of hose there.


Francis Cochrane: I will make inquiry.


William Pugsley: What is the policy of the minister in regard to a water supply? Is it the policy to utilize public stations wherever possible, or the gravitation system where that is possible?


Francis Cochrane: Whichever is cheapest. If we can get a system of gravitation at a reasonable cost, we will take it every time, but where we cannot we use the pumping stations.
Intercolonial railway-towards the construction of a railway from a point on the Intercolonial railway at or near Dartmouth, in the county of Halifax, via Musquodoboit Harbour and the valley of the Musquodoboit to Dean's settlement in the said county, $510,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What progress is being made on that?


Francis Cochrane: It is graded pretty nearly up to Dean's Settlement, and the track has been laid for nearly three-quarters of the distance. They have the bridges to do yet. Steel bridges are being manufactured. The substructure is completed already, I think, and we hope to get all the bridges finished this year.


John Howard Sinclair: Will this vote complete the line?


Francis Cochrane: We expect so.


John Howard Sinclair: In connection with this question of branch lines, I wish to make an inquiry about the proposed Guysborough branch. I have here a memorandum which was attached to tlie plan the minister placed on the table the other day, in connection with that proposed branch. I want to read it, and then ask the minister a question about it:
Re Guysborough Subdivision-Intercolonial Railway.
The proposed railway extends from Sunny-brae to Mulgrave by way of Guysborough. Preliminary surveys have been made which indicate that the railway can be built on a maximum grade of five-tenths per cent westbound.
The details of the surveyed routes is from Sunnybrae to Lake Eden, thence down the East river St. Mary to post near Country Harbour Cross Roads,- then east along the Valley of the Salmon river to Guysborough harbour, along the shores of Chedabucto bay and Straits of Canso to Mulgrave.
The line is about 8.S miles in length. The distance from Truro to Mulgrave by way of Guysborough is 137 miles. The distance from Truro to Mulgrave via the present line is 122.3. The distance from Sunnybrae to Guysborough is 65 miles.
The object of the proposed railway is first to give transportation facilities to the central portion of Guysborough county and the port of Guysborough, and second to construct that railway with such grades as to make it the economical route for heavy traffic to and from Cape Breton over which it will be possible to haul practically double the amount of tonnage that can be hauled by the same pc -cr over the present line, which provides a great economy in operating expenses although the distance is increased about 15 miles
Ottawa, March 25, 1915.
The Country Harbour branch was a part of the route as originally projected, and I want to ask the minister if he includes it in the present proposal. It is not in the mileage given.


Francis Cochrane: Ultimately, yes, because the plan shows both places.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it on the plan?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


19J5
John Howard Sinclair: But you are not proposing to build it now ?


Francis Cochrane: Not until later on. I think the other road is the more important. The million dollars that I told my hon. friend would be included in the Supplementary Estimates will not be expended on that portion of the road at this [DOT]time.


John Howard Sinclair: When does the minister propose to build the Country Harbour branch ?


Francis Cochrane: As _soon as we can.
I brought the map to show the hon. gentleman the whole scheme that is proposed.


John Howard Sinclair: It will be a great disappointment to the people on that part of the coast of Nova Scotia when they learn that the Country Harbour branch is dropped out of the proposal.


Francis Cochrane: It is not dropped out of the proposal. I brought the map and the hon. gentleman can see that the road goes to both places, but I do not want to mislead him by saying that we are going to start on the branch to Country Harbour this year.
Mr, SINCLAIR: I quite understand that. The point I made is that while it is on the map it is not included in the minister's present proposal.


Francis Cochrane: It certainly is a part of the proposal. The scheme as laid out includes branches from Sunnybrae to Country Harbour and to Guysborough.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand there is ia line marked out on the plan to Country Harbour, but there is also a line marked out to Canso, 30 miles from Guysborough, on the same pl^n. These lines are found there, but that does not indicate that they are to be built, and I do not think the minister himself would say that the line to Canso, at all events, comes within his present proposal. I assure my hon. friend that a picture of a line on the plan will satisfiy nobody. We must have the line itself.


Francis Cochrane: The proposal is the whole scheme as laid out on the map.


John Howard Sinclair: Country Harbour Is the centre of a long range of coast, it is the best port on the Atlantic coast or in Nova Scotia, and I would regard it as a great mistake if the minister did not include it in the original proposal. The sea can be reached at Country Harbour at a much
shorter distance from Sunnybrae than it can be at Guysborough.


Francis Cochrane: Then you would rather have it go to Country Harbour than to Guysborough ?


John Howard Sinclair: Not at all; I do not care to accept anything less than the old proposal made originally by the late Government, which included a branch to Guysborough and also one to Country Harbour.
I do not think that anything else than that will be satisfactory, and I submit that if the minister will look into the possibilities of the traffic along that coast he will agree with me. I wish to say most emphatically that Country Harbour should be included in his proposal. That is all I have to say, and it is something I ought to say, because this is a matter of very great importance in my constituency. The disappointment will be very great in that part of the country when the minister's attitude is known.


Francis Cochrane: Is Country Harbour developed in any way?


John Howard Sinclair: There are very slight
facilities. There is a public wharf and some shipping, but nothing further. We want the railway to develop it.


Francis Cochrane: If the road were built without facilities it would not be of much use?


John Howard Sinclair: If it were reached by a railway there is no doubt in my mind that the trade would grow very rapidly.


Francis Cochrane: I know that. I am
not joking about the matter; I am in earnest about it. The railway would not be of much use to Country Harbour until the harbour was developed ?


John Howard Sinclair: The railway, if built,
would involve a wharf at the end of it, where ships could load and unload, and that would be all the development that we would expect at the present time. That, I suppose, would be a part of the minister's proposals. It would be useless to build the railway down to the shore without having a wharf at which to load the goods which would arrive there for shipment.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The diversion at North Sydney and Sydney Mines improves the condition of the road there immensely and enables you, in the operation of the road, to get clear of two heavy grades. Is it in contemplation to better the grades at other points between Sydney and the straits?

There is a very heavy grade near River Denys.


Francis Cochrane: There are a lot of them.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is about the worst. The old saying is that the strength of the chain is equal to that if its weakest link. There is not much use of improving the grades around Sydney unless you are able to overcome these other grades. I think some surveys were made about the Grand Narrows and at River Denys. I would like to know if there is any immediate prospect of having these grades removed so as to provide the road with as nearly uniform grades as possible.


Francis Cochrane: There has been a survey made and it seems to show that the improvement could be made at a less cost than by reducing the grades on the present road. Unfortunately, if we built another line we would have to run both the old and the new lines, because there is quite a settlement along the present line which would need the service, and we would have to give it. We have come to the conclusion, I think, that we will cut down some of the grades and renew the bridges so that we may be able to put on heavier rolling stock and heavier power for the present, anyway. To reduce the grades down to .06, with compensation, would cost about $58,000 a mile. It would cost in the neighbourhood of something like $45,000 a mile to go out by way of St. Peter's. The operation would cost just about double, as my hon. friend knows. The situation is such that we think the best plan now is to cut down the worst grades, increase the bridges and to put on heavier power.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: I would like to ask the minister if he has considered the report of Engineer Clark, whom he sent down to Inverness county last summer, with regard to the projected line of railway in Inverness county?


Francis Cochrane: I have not given very much attention to it.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have just read over a part of the report, which the hon. minister handed to me a moment ago, which indicates that this proposed line will cost very much more than was estimated by the minister's representative Mr. Tessier who went down there three years ago. I am disappointed. to say the least. The report ends up by holding out very little encouragement for the construction of this piece of road. It will be sad and discouraging news

for the people of Inverness when they hear that the Government have practically abair-doned the idea of constructing this road.


Francis Cochrane: I do not say that.


Alexander William Chisholm: I think the report would indicate that very clearly. Perhaps I may be too pessimistic, but I have very good reason to be so. iSince I have had the honour of a seat in this House I have kept this matter before the Government-the late Government and the present one. I had hoped that when the facts of this proposition were properly submitted to the Government they would undertake the construction of this road from a business standpoint if for no other reason. I succeeded so well with the late Government that I got their assurance that they would undertake the construction of the line in the summer of 1912, not as a favour but as a practical business proposition. After the defeat of the Liberal Government the people of Inverness county sent a delegation to wait upon the Minister of Railways, and I had the honour of associating myself with these gentlemen when they met the minister, and they were received verv courteously by him. They laid the facts before him, not in as full detail as I would like, but they did as well as time permitted.
I suggested to the minister that he should send one of his own engineers there to look over the line. The hon. minister remembers this. The minister was kind enough to grant my request and he sent Mr. Tessier, who, I understand, is an engineer of very great experience in railway work. Mr. Tessier spent some time in the county of Inverness and gathered a very considerable number of facts, and the only fault I have to find with his report is that there were a great many items of possible traffic along that route which he failed to enumerate,_ the reason being that he did not stay long enough there to go into all the details. The reason I refer to his report at all is, that as to the cost of construction he was 'quite definite, and made an extended investigation and study of the whole route, and be assured the minister that the road would cost in the vicinity of $23,000 a mile only. I asked the minister last year his opinion about this report, and his reply was that in his judgment the report was too rosy. We heard nothing more about this until last summer, I saw a gentleman going through the county of Inverness. He called at the town of Inverness and took with him a gentleman, Mr. H. A. McEachen, barrister, there

and they drove to Cheticamp and came back the next day, and no doubt they enjoyed the very pleasant drive along the coast. As to how they could gather much information with respect to the road, I could never find out. They called at my own town, Margaree, on returning, and one would think that the Government would expect its officers to pay the representative of the people of that county the courtesy of calling on him to discuss the question with him, but that was not done.
I thought it possible this gentleman might call on me, but instead of that he called together a number of the political friends of the Minister of Railways and they discussed railway matters'!' Then these gentlemen went through the country and announced that this Mr. x Clark had assured them that the Government was going to undertake the construction of this road. Mr. Clark and Mr. McEachen went on to Orangedale and I heard nothing more about them. I find that this gentleman in his report to the minister enters into a long statement as to the probable cost of the construction of this road, and as I expect he added several thousand dollars more to the total cost of the line than at first estimated by Mr. Tessier. No doubt for the purpose of destroying the rosiness of this gentleman's report. That of course, in itself, if true, is calculated to justify the minister in not undertaking the construction of this road. This second engineer, Mr. Clark, who spent about a week there, was apparently able to furnish the minister with an itemized statement as to the cost of construction, which would indicate that the road would cost about $14,000 more than Mr. Tessier reported it would cost, although Mr. Tessier spent four months there gathering information upon which to base his report. It is a marvel to me how this second man could have gathered all this information on this joyride he had in the county of Inverness-because, to my mind, it was nothing more or less than a joyride.


Francis Cochrane: You know what a joyride is, I do not.


Alexander William Chisholm: I do not know very
much about it either, but I have heard something about it. I have spent some fifteen or twenty years in the practice oi my profession in a country district, and I have never felt very much joy in driving, but evidently this engineer did because he felt very comfortable driving along the country road in the cool of the evening in order no doubt to avoid heat of the midday
sun; of course he was a gentleman. _ It will be bad news to the people of Inverness if the minister does not now promise that this road will be built. From all the information in the possession of the minister, he must be convinced that this is a practical business proposition which there is ample merit to justify him undertaking, even if for no other purpose than to furnish additional earnings to the Intercolonial railway. I made the statement in this House two years ago that none of the lines discussed by hon. gentlemen here had half as much merit as this line in Inverness county. I have already enumerated the various sources of traffic, and I will not detain the House to repeat them now, but the minister has, without doubt, sufficient information in his possession, to cause him to see that this is a most meritorious piece of railway, so far as earning power is concerned. I can tell the minister that all the wealth of that rich county must remain dormant until this road is constructed. We have gold, iron, coal, copper, silver barytes and several other minerals, all of first-class quality and almost inexhaustable quantity; we have a first-class fishing industry which would in the fishing season furnish this road with regular and very considerable quantities of freight; and as fine a farming country as can be seen in any part of Canada, and a wealth of forest which as yet practically has not been touched; but all must remain hnexploited. until railway /transportation facilities are afforded. We can never expect to get our natural ressources developed in any other way than by railway construction, because along the coast of Inverness from Port Hood north, it is most difficult to create -adequate harbours for shipping. I hope the minister will revise his opinion that nothing can be done at present because that is a most indefinite assurance to these suffering people. We have had many surveys and many estimates as to the cost of this road, and the minister has even sent his accredited representative there, to furnish him with a report, and an honest report it is, I have no doubt. There is another report from the engineer who went down last year on this famous trip I have referred to, which is based on information gathered in a few- days, which I noted clapped on $14,000 a mile in addition to the estimate of the former engineer's estimate, and now it is time to get down to businef -. I trust that the Minister of Railways will change his mind and go on with this work.

and thus confer a lasting benefit on my constituency and on the Government railway' system. Last year, I had faith in the hon. minister. I have not lost that faith altogether, it has been almost wrecked by the language of this report of Mr. Clark's and of the minister who will not say that the road will be built.


Charles Marcil: Before we leave the Intercolonial Estimates, would the minister please tell me: does he expect to be able to put on the Ocean Limited again this spring?


Francis Cochrane: I expect so. But I hope the trade will increase first. I was talking it over with the manager last week, and he thought about the 1st or 2nd of May he might start it again.
Railways-chargeable to capital account- Prince Edward Island railway, $1,938,925.


George Perry Graham: The chief item here is the car ferry. " To provide a car ferry, eon-struct terminals and necessary connections, $1,900,000." I think the other items might go through. Would the minister explain when he is going to have that ferry running and all about it?


Francis Cochrane: The hon. member was not present when I said I thought it would be running by September or October. The pier will not be completed, but we hope it will be in such shape that we can use the boats and start the ferry.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Will the boat be finished?


Francis Cochrane: Yes. .


James Joseph Hughes: Where?


Francis Cochrane: On the other side of the Atlantic. The company that is building her will deliver her either at Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick, whichever is the best harbour.


James Joseph Hughes: Will the pier at Cape Traverse be finished?


Francis Cochrane: No, but it tyill be in shape so that we can use it.


James Joseph Hughes: In case that should not be done, can the boat carry freight under deck?


Francis Cochrane: I cannot tell the hon. gentleman how much space there will be below.


James Joseph Hughes: Otherwise, I presume she would not be of use except as a car ferry. fMr. A. W. Chisholm.]


Francis Cochrane: I wont "presume"
about it. But I can find out.


James Joseph Hughes: If she were constructed with good space below decks, she could be made use of even if the piers are not ready.


Francis Cochrane: We will try to have
the piers ready.


James Joseph Hughes: Is the hon. gentleman
acquiring the land for the terminals at Cape Travers?


Francis Cochrane: That is not settled.
I am afraid we will have to go to the Exchequer Court with some; with some we are getting a settlement.


James Joseph Hughes: I understand a couple of parties have been speculating in land. Does the minister know anything about that?


Francis Cochrane: No. Could the hon.
gentleman tell me who they are?


James Joseph Hughes: One, I understand, is
station agent at Cape Traverse, and the other the engineer in charge of the works.


Francis Cochrane: The station agent, I
understand, has had his land for some fifteen years. That was rather a bad speculation.


James Joseph Hughes: My information-I do
not know whether it is correct or not-is that he has bought more land with a view to getting a large price from the Government.	f


Francis Cochrane: He can't succeed in
working me for a big price, the land is not worth it.


James Joseph Hughes: I understood that the
matter was brought to the attention of the minister by the two men disagreeing among themselves.


Francis Cochrane: Oh, I don't know.


James Joseph Hughes: Has any information
been given to the minister?


Francis Cochrane: There has been some gossip.


James Joseph Hughes: By these two men? Each accused the other of doing what was wrong?


Francis Cochrane: I am not prepared to say who was wrong.


James Joseph Hughes: Did each accuse the other of doing wrong?


Francis Cochrane: I suppose.


James Joseph Hughes: I am asking the minister if that is true.


Francis Cochrane: I think that is right.


James Joseph Hughes: And they are both
officials of the Government.


Francis Cochrane: Well, one is station agent of the Intercolonial the^e, I don't know how much he gets out of it.


James Joseph Hughes: And the other is the engineer in charge of the works?


Francis Cochrane: No.


James Joseph Hughes: He was?


Francis Cochrane: No.


James Joseph Hughes: Then, what office did he hold?


Francis Cochrane: He may have been assistant engineer.


James Joseph Hughes: That is about the same.


Francis Cochrane: No.


James Joseph Hughes: He was an employee of the Government at that time?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


James Joseph Hughes: Does the minister think it proper for employees of the Government-


Francis Cochrane: No, sir, I do not think it is proper.


James Joseph Hughes: What action does the minister intend to take in regard to it?


Francis Cochrane: If he owns the property, pay him what it is worth and nothing more. But he is warned already that'if he is caught again-


James Joseph Hughes: The station agent?


Francis Cochrane: We have done nothing with him. I am afraid this is going to the Exchequer Court.


James Joseph Hughes: He was one of the men speculating in the land?


Francis Cochrane: He may have bought some land since. I am not sure. My hon. friend says he has, but I am told on good authority that he bought most of the land he is holding, and I understood bought all of it, about ten or fifteen years ago.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the department constructed lately, or is it constructing, new cars for the Prince Edward Island railway?


Francis Cochrane: Unless we change some of the light cars on the main line of the Intercolonial, we have not. They may have changed some of these. There are
some twenty-ton cars on the main line that are not of much use now, being too small.


James Joseph Hughes: Are you having new cars built?


Francis Cochrane: Not that I know of.


James Joseph Hughes: Where is the work being done?


Francis Cochrane: Any work being done to change the light cars will be done at Aloneton.


James Joseph Hughes: Change them into larger
cars?


Francis Cochrane: No. They are too small for use on the main line of the Intercolonial, and we might change them so as to run on the Prince Edward Island line.
Air. A1ARCIL: Is the Prince Edward Island line a narrow gauge road?


Francis Cochrane: It is up to the present.


Charles Marcil: No work started about altering the gauge.


Francis Cochrane: Not yet.


James Joseph Hughes: We have jumped
over a number of items and we might as s well discuss them all at once.


Francis Cochrane: All right.


James Joseph Hughes: There is an item here of " Surveys and inspections, $10,400."


Francis Cochrane: That is put in every
year; I do not know how much of it we shall spend.


James Joseph Hughes: I understood the minister had had two applications, one for a survey of a branch line connecting Bridgetown with the main line either at Cardigan, St. Peters or Souris. Can the minister say if he has any intention of holding a survey there during the coming summer?


Francis Cochrane: We might. We have a number of places to survey this year. But, as we cannot get finances to build these lines, I do not want to spend money until there is an opportunity to put the work through.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister told me in the session of 1912-13, that in the coming summer he intended to have a report made on this proposed piece of railway.


Francis Cochrane: And he has not had it done yet.


James Joseph Hughes: He has not had it done yet; and unless he can give me something definite, I am afraid I must conclude that he did not mean much.


Francis Cochrane: Don't do that.


James Joseph Hughes: Can the minister say
anything more definite than he has said in regard to this matter, or will it be like the promise he made in 1912-13?


Francis Cochrane: I do not often make
promises.


James Joseph Hughes: Quite so, and when the
hon. minister made that promise in 1912-13 I had great confidence in the belief that he would carry it out.


Francis Cochrane: I will inquire into
the matter and write my hon. friend.


James Joseph Hughes: There is a branch line also between Montague and _ Cardigan. When that was built it was intended to extend it to connect with the main line to Murray harbour. That has not been done.


Francis Cochrane: How many more
miles would be required?


James Joseph Hughes: Seven or eight.


Francis Cochrane: I will make a note of it.
New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island- to bring: line up to Intercolonial branch line standard, $25,000.


George Perry Graham: Is that the line down to the ferry?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What does the minister propose to do with this $25,000?


Francis Cochrane: Strengthen the bridge and culverts; provide and place ballast; replace steel rails where necessary; make surveys.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is it intended to build any new bridges? There are two important bridges on this line.


Francis Cochrane: No, I do not think so. There is only $5,000 for bridges.


Arthur Bliss Copp: When this railway was operated by the company, a small station was used about a quarter of a mile from the main Sackville station. This little station, which was called Woods crossing, has been practically abandoned since the road was taken over by the Intercolonial railway. It is now only a siding, and when the train stops there the locomotive and part of the

train is directly across the street. To correct this would be only a matter of moving this small station-which is very small, not more than 20 by 30 feet-a short distance, so that when the train stops the engine or cars will not be across the street.


Francis Cochrane: Would it be necessary to buy any more land.


Arthur Bliss Copp: No. The point is that this is the main street of Sackville. The train usually leaves at one o'clock, about the time when people are going to and from dinner, and when a large number of school children are crossing at this point. I myself had the experience one day of seeing children crawl under the cars. I drew, the attention of the Board of Trade to the matter, and they sent a petition to the Intercolonial management. I hope that he will take the matter up and have it remedied.


Francis Cochrane: I am making a note of it.
Intercolonial railway-working expenses, $14,060,000.


George Perry Graham: I see that the minister intends to keep separate from the Intercolonial railway the working expenses of the International railway and the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway, the two lines in respect of which authority has been asked to purchase or lease.


Francis Cochrane: Next year the expenses of these lines will go in with the working expenses of the whole system. We would like to keep the expenses separate at first just to see how it works out. That may not be an easy task, either.


George Perry Graham: I think the minister is right in endeavouring to do this, either for his own information or for the benefit of the public, but on account of the through freight it will not be an easy thing to do. The rates now paid on these lines are absolutely local.


Francis Cochrane: We have kept them
so.


George Perry Graham: When it comes to be part of the Intercolonial the rates will have to be merged into a thorough rate, and evidently these branch lines, if traffic does not increase, will not be as remunerative as they are now. Of course, it is hoped that a greater traffic will develop. The rate per ton per mile will not be as great when the road becomes part of the Intercolonial as at

present. On the other hand, the people shipping goods will get the benefit of lower -rates. I suppose the minister is not in a position to tell how the International or New Brunswick has paid.


Francis Cochrane: The International pays working expenses, and we have not yet ^changed the rates. After this legislation passes we will have to give through rates and therefore lower rates. I hope that, as the hon. member for St. John said last evening, as this is a fertile country and there is a good lot of timber to ship out, the line will pay even after cutting the freight and passenger rates.
Prince Edward Island railway-chargeable to capital, $1,938,925.


James Joseph Hughes: There is a great
deal of dissatisfaction bf cause the rates of freight change so frequently; there are several changes in the course of a year.


Francis Cochrane: What are they?


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know, and a
great many of the station agents do not know.


Francis Cochrane: Are they fit to be
station agents?


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know whether
they are or not. The minister ought to be the best judge of that.


Francis Cochrane: I do not come in contact with them as you do.


James Joseph Hughes: In the olden times when Mr. Pottinger was general manager of the railway, the rule was that there was a winter rate and a summer rate for freight and passengers. Now there are several changes, during the summer season.


Francis Cochrane: We have reduced the rates instead of increasing them.


James Joseph Hughes: I mean the changes.


Francis Cochrane: We have reduced instead of increasing the rates on Prince Edward Island.
Mr. HUGHES. That is news to me, indeed.


Francis Cochrane: I will tell him how we did it: We absorbed the ferry charges.


James Joseph Hughes: The ferry is not in operation.


Francis Cochrane: There is a ferry jn
operation; there always is.


James Joseph Hughes: The local freight rates
are very much higher than they used to be.


Francis Cochrane: I do not think so.


James Joseph Hughes: I am sure of it, -because I have had to pay them. I have already complained that you do not know in. advance what you are going to be charged when you ship goods, because the station agent may have a new rate, different from what he had a week or two before; and where the stations are small and the station masters are not in touch with the changes, they charge enough to be sure to be on the right side.


Mr. BRODER:: Have they no collated rates?


James Joseph Hughes: I am informed that there are so many changes that a new circular will come out and they will be referred to section b or section c of paragraph 7 in circular No. 22 for instance, and they can hardly keep track of all these changes. I wanted to point this out to the. minister. I know hS'is favourably impressed with his new officials, but the country is not.


Francis Cochrane: Time will tell that.


James Joseph Hughes: It has not told so far. There appears to be a great deal more bookkeeping than there used to be, and very much less work or at least not much more work.


Francis Cochrane: Our officials are not working hard enough?


James Joseph Hughes: There is too much system, too much red tape. When the management was under Mr. Pottinger it was very much simpler and I think about as well done. I know that much better satisfaction was given to the public.


Andrew Broder: Could a man get through without paying freight at all in those days when there was no system?


James Joseph Hughes: No, I do not think so. I think the system was all right, because it was simple and effective. Now it is almost impossible to get anything over to Prince Edward Island without having it broken, arriving in bad order.


Francis Cochrane: I certainly -will take that up and go after the officials on the information given me by my hon. friend.


James Joseph Hughes: When you make a claim it is very difficult to have it looked into or adjusted. The difficulties are so great

that if the amount is small the person would rather abandon it than have the trouble. I do not think that is right.


Mr.   OQOHRANE@: You do not give us any instances by which we can check it up.


James Joseph Hughes: The claims made are pretty numerous.
Mr. 'COCHRANE: If you have any claims that have not been looked after, I shall be glad to have a memorandum of them and will go into them myself and see that they are adjusted.


James Joseph Hughes: I will certainly tabulate them in future and get the dates and present them to the minister, because the railway gives a receipt for goods received in good order, and with the number of officials now on the road they ought to be able to keep track of the goods and find out where the injury took place. The general impression is that the officials are careless-


Francis Cochrane: And too numerous.


James Joseph Hughes: -and goods are injured that might not be injured if the officials themselves had to pay for the injuries and if the injuries could be brought home to them.


Francis Cochrane: It is the ordinary men who are handling the goods.


James Joseph Hughes: Ordinary men, of course, but if the ordinary men are allowed to handle goods roughly and carelessly they will perhaps not be as careful as if they were held accountable-


Francis Cochrane: I think they are.


James Joseph Hughes: -for the damage that
they do.


Arthur Bliss Copp: In reference to damage to freight in transit, when a claim is put in it is naturally put in at the receiving station. I would draw the minister's attention to the case of Milton Kinnear, whose furniture was destroyed coming from Alassachusetts. It came in by St. John and went over this very branch line that my hon. friend has taken over. I have had the claim in my office three years, and have not yet had it adjusted.


Francis Cochrane: Does my hon. friend think this was done on the Intercolonial or-on the American roads ?


Arthur Bliss Copp: We do not know.


Francis Cochrane: That is a different proposition.


Arthur Bliss Copp: We want it looked into. All we know is that it was in good condition when we handed it over and it was in *bad condition when it arrived. We cannot .get information where it was destroyed or damaged.


Francis Cochrane: A carload or what ?


Arthur Bliss Copp: No, I do not think it would be a carload; only a part of a car. If my hon. friend will take up the case I shall be very glad to hand hirr) over my commission for the collection.


Francis Cochrane: Furniture in less than carload lots is shipped at the owner's risk on all railroads.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This was not shipped at the owner's risk, for they, admit liability; but the trouble is to locate where the liability rests.
All*. COCHRANE: I will see what can be done.


Charles Marcil: Since the dismissal of Air. J. B. T. Caron, the solicitor of the Intercolonial railway at Aloncton, who conducts the road's legal business in the province of Quebec?


Francis Cochrane: Air. Mathieu Papineau. He was not dismissed. His commission was dissolved.


Charles Marcil: Mr. Caron was required to reside at Aloncton. Does not the same rule apply to Mr. Papineau?


Francis Cochrane: No.	[DOT]
All*. A1ARCIL: He looks after the Quebec business in Alontreal?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Charles Marcil: What is his salary?


Francis Cochrane: He has no fixed salary; he is paid by fees.


Charles Marcil: He gets a fee for each case he takes up? He has then an interest in getting a number of cases?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It has been my experience that the officials of the Intercolonial railway feel it their duty to turn down claims instead of really considering them and reporting to the department. I have had quite a bit of experience in this matter, and know that nine times out of ten the claims agent will report to the minister that the claim should not be allowed.


Francis Cochrane: Probably he is right.


Arthur Bliss Copp: He is not light. I have known the claims agent to refuse claims that were absolutely just. I have in mind one small claim that was absolutely just. I cannot understand why the agent did not allow it. The man was afraid to take an action against the Intercolonial, but I would,have taken chances on it myself?


Francis Cochrane: How much was it for?


Arthur Bliss Copp: It was a small amount, $30 dollars I think.


Francis Cochrane: Then you have a right to take an action.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Yes, but the man was afraid to; and that is happening all along the line. If a man loses a cow worth $40 or $50, he will not bring an action because he does not like to fight against the Government. I do not blame the minister personally, for this has been going on for years, but I know that hundreds of claims against the Intercolonial have been turned down simply because the official 11 p.m. would not do justice as between the Intercolonial and the people. The official follows the line of least resistance and says, I will report against it. I wish the minister would take this matter up. The hon. member for Prince Edward Island is absolutely right. People will not bring action for small claims, but they should be compensated nevertheless.


George Perry Graham: There is a large item about the working of the Transcontinental. I imagine that may be discussed on the Transcontinental proper.


Francis Cochrane: All right.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I notice that the working expenses of the International railway are $85,000, and the working expenses of the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway $65,000. Is that the working expenses for the year?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand the International railway is 112 miles long, and the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway only 36 miles. Yet there is only a difference of $20,000 in the amount.


Francis Cochrane: During the construction of the pier I imagine we shall have to run extra trains for stone.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the department anything to do with the schedule of wages on the Intercolonial, or is that under the direction of the general manager's office at Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: The management at Moncton has charge of that. I think they have an association.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I should like the minister to take a memorandum of what I am going to say and bring it to their attention. A very peculiar situation arises in connection with the salaries of station masters on the Intercolonial.


Francis Cochrane: There should be.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Unfortunately the situation
is more difficult than the minister seems to realize. Take the station agents at Sack-ville and then take the agents at College Bridge, Memramcook, Shediae, Nappan, and then go down the line from Moncton to St. John, and you find that at the smaller stations the pay of the agents is better as a whole than it is at stations such as Sackville. It is well known that at these smaller stations the real salary of the agents is better than the salary at other places like Sackville.


Francis Cochrane: In dollars and cents
or proportionately?


Arthur Bliss Copp: In dollars and cents. At a
place like College Bridge there is a residence in the station, and the agent has his rent, coal, fuel and oil free.


Francis Cochrane: That is only recently. There is a new station there.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It has been like that right
along. At Sackville the station agent has no residence, he has to rent his house and buy his fuel, and when he has paid for those things the amount that he receives is really smaller than the salary paid to the agents at smaller stations. When a station becomes vacant the next oldest man in the service makes application for it. The result is that experienced stationmasters do not go to the better stations; they would rather stay at the smaller stations, because they get better salaries at those places. We had an agent at Sackville and he went to a smaller station because the salary was better. As a result of the present conditions, at the more important stations we have inexperienced agents. The New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway, which has now been taken over by the Intercolonial, used to be operated by a private company, and then the agent at Sackville got an allowance of $30 or $40 per month, because

of this being a junction point, receiving the freight and passenger traffic over this road. As soon as the road was taken over by the Government, although the agent had to do all the work in connection with the road, this allowance was cut off, and his salary was reduced by between $300 and $400 a year. While his work was increased, his salary was reduced. As a result, he left the station, went to a smaller station, and we have a new man in that position. I would like the minister to look into this matter.


Francis Cochrane: All right.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: At the present time
there is considerable trouble along the line of the Intercolonial railway in my riding about the right of farmers to cut hay beside the line of the railway in front of their property. The department have laid down the principle that between the two semaphores the hay belongs to the agents. Outside of the semaphores to whom does the right to cut hay belong? To the farmer whose property fronts on the railway, or do the management say that the right belongs to anybody to whom they may give it?


Francis Cochrane: It belongs to the Intercolonial Railway and they can dispose of it as they think best. They may sell it to certain individuals, or they may give some of it to the agents. In some cases the land is leased.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: The minister will not admit that a member of Parliament has any right to go to Moncton and say that they must give^the privilege for two or three years to any one special person?


Francis Cochrane: No.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I can prove that this has been done, and I hope that the minister will see that it does not occur again. I have a report here to the effect that the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) was granted the privilege, hitherto enjoyed by many farmers wnose properties fronted on the Intercolonial railway, and that he sent men along the railway to cut hay for themselves, thus depriving the farmers of the right to cut hay in front of their property. I want to call the minister's attention -to that.


Francis Cochrane: I will take a note of it.
Quebec bridge, construction, $3,500,000.


George Perry Graham: Could the minister tell
us how this is getting on, when it is likely

to be completed and how the company that got the contract is doing?


Francis Cochrane: The stonework is
completed and a splendid job it is. It cost a little less than the estimate. I have a sketch here that shows the work if my hon. friend will look at it.


George Perry Graham: How much will it cost
altogether?


Francis Cochrane: Including the old
bridge the estimate is between $30,000,000 and $35,000,000.


George Perry Graham: Leaving out the old
bridge, how much will the carrying out of the contract for this bridge cost?


Francis Cochrane: $17,000,000 for the
new bridge. The contract for the steel is at the rate of so mucn per pound.


George Perry Graham: We made a contract for the superstructure outside of the piers altogether. Will the superstructure cost $17,000,000?


Francis Cochrane: That includes the
piers.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister heard
any complaint lately from the British firm that did not get the contract?


Francis Cochrane: No, I. have not.


George Perry Graham: They had no case anyway.
Welland ship canal construction, $5,500,000.


William Manley German: Would the minister
state if any progress is being made towards the construction of the water main which it is proposed to lay from Lake Erie in order to supply Welland, St. Catharines, Thorold and Merritton which have been taking water from the canal?


Francis Cochrane: It has not been
started yet but I hope to be able to get it started this summer. I discussed it with the chief engineer of the canal and he thinks we had better do it by day work. It is important to get it done properly because it is a thing that must stand forever and he thinks that better than letting a contract. We have not decided whether we will do it by day labour or by contract, but I hope it will be started this summer in order to give these places water before turning the river in.


William Manley German: I am not interested in whether it is done by day labour or contract, because if it is done under Mr. MARCH 29, 1915
Weller's supervision it will be done properly and economically. The question is: will it be done?


Francis Cochrane: It is provided for in these estimates.


William Manley German: And the work will likely be commenced this summer.


Francis Cochrane: I hope so.


William Manley German: Has it been absolutely decided to put the river and the canal on the same level?


Francis Cochrane: We will have to turn the river in.


William Manley German: I was not sure it had been absolutely decided to do that.


Francis Cochrane: That is his scheme.


George Perry Graham: How many contracts have been let?


Francis Cochrane: Five. .


George Perry Graham: How many are there to be let and when does the minister expect the work to be completed.


Francis Cochrane: There are four contracts to let. No. 3 contract is the heaviest of all, and even starting this year I think we could complete these five by the time contract No. 3 is finished, which will, we hope, be three years from now, but I am afraid we may be a little shy on that. '


George Perry Graham: What is the size of the lock?


Francis Cochrane: 800 feet long, 85 feet wide, and 30 feet deep on the sills. The dredging will only go to 25 feet but they can keep on dredging year after year.


William Manley German: There is a cut off at Humberstone, where a kind of guardlock is to be constructed. That section will take more than three years and could not the minister find it justifiable to let the contract this year and begin work on that section.


Francis Cochrane: That will have to be discussed with Mr. Weller and my colleagues.


William Manley German: They want to go on if the minister can find the money.


Francis Cochrane: That is a point I have to discuss with my colleagues.
Towards construction of railway to connect Montreal with National Transcontinental railway, $750,000.


George Perry Graham: Will the minister explain this?


Francis Cochrane: In 1912 we gave a subsidy to the North Railway Company, and last session they came back again and wanted a guarantee, and a guarantee was promised to them; but before they got to work they wanted a guarantee and a subsidy both, and the Government concluded in that case they had better build the road themselves. The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) and others expressed the opinion that these people ought to be compensated for the surveys they had made and other expenditures they had gone to. They got a charter and a land grant from Quebec of 8,000 acres a mile up to where it touched the Transcontinental, and 10,000 a mile beyond that, and then they had a subsidy from this Parliament. They have given up all their rights, and this was the amount that was allowed them on their handing their surveys and everything they had over to the Government. Their claim was $900,000, but we would not entertain that.


George Perry Graham: Is the Government going to use these surveys?


Francis Cochrane: As far as we can; I think we will use a great portion of them.


George Perry Graham: Where does the road run from Montreal?


Francis Cochrane: It runs through the county of Argenteuil; it has to conform with the physical conditions of thg country.


George Perry Graham: Are there estimates as to the cost of the road?


Francis Cochrane: No. They said it would be an expensive road and would cost $50,000 or $60,000 a mile.


George Perry Graham: What standard road will be built?


Francis Cochrane: If the Government built it it must be the standard of the Transcontinental railway, because it is intended to give Montreal direct connection with the Transcontinental railway, and it would be foolish to build any other kind of a road.


George Perry Graham: Are you going on witli the road this year?


Francis Cochrane: I do not think so.-


George Perry Graham: The minister is not sure he will go on with it this year, and he probably will not.


Francis Cochrane: I insisted on having
' the vote in because conditions may change and no one knows when the war may end.


George Perry Graham: Are you not likely to be accused, as you have accused others, of starting to build a road before you know what it will cost?


Francis Cochrane: We will not do that.


George Perry Graham: You have spent a quarter of a million dollars on it already.


Francis Cochrane: Yes, but that was for surveys and there were various other expenditures which the company had gone to. It was not all for building a railway.


George Perry Graham: They will not build any railway.


Francis Cochrane: That is true.


George Perry Graham: I think in the first place there was a subsidy offered to any company that would build the road, and then it was transferred to a particular company, and this is the particular company.


Francis Cochrane: That is right.
Soulanges canal, protection works, $24,500.


George Perry Graham: I suppose, as a matter
of fact, the expenditures for repairs on these canals will have to be continued so long as you have canals.


Francis Cochrane: Yes, we cannot help it.


George Perry Graham: As long as the work is needed and the money is judiciously expended there cannot he any question about it. This work has been discussed on several occasions and it has been going on for a long. time.


Francis Cochrane: I think you let the
contract.
Trent canal construction, $1,500,000 ; to pay claim of Cory and Laverdure, $16,000.


George Perry Graham: When will this work be completed?


Francis Cochrane: They expect that the Rice Lake division will be completed in October, 1916. There is one contract not yet let.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: Does the minister expect that the contract for remaining section on the Severn river will be let this year?


Francis Cochrane: No.


George Perry Graham: Has the question about
the water powers on the Trent canal been settled amicably, or is it still in court?


Francis Cochrane: I think we will have to wait for the Privy Council- to decide that:


George Perry Graham: Is the case before the Privy Council?


Francis Cochrane: They have put in their statement of claim, but I do not think it has gone to trial yet. The Justice Department has had more than it could do since the war commenced, and the case has not been prepared for trial.


George Perry Graham: As I remember it, Cory and Laverdure put in their claim for work done years ago, and these several claims were submitted to the chief engineer, Mr. Schreiber.


Francis Cochrane: No, they were submitted to Joseph Hobson, Robert Surtees, and George P. Brophy.


George Perry Graham: That was the commission they were referred to, but Mr. Schreiber was the engineer. The claims, except this particular one, went through with the approval of every person.
There are minute details about it that I cannot recall to mind, but I remember that Mr. Cory discussed it with me several times, and I thought he had no claim, after I had read the documents many times and had consulted Mr. Schreiber. Some statement that he had made to Mr. Schreiber, if I remember well, put him out of court on this item. With the information before me, I declined to pay him. Perhaps the minister has some new information.


Francis Cochrane: I took my facts largely from the report and findings of this commission of engineers. It seemed to me that from an equitable standpoint he wasr entitled to this amount of money. He asked for a great deal more-$30,000 or $35,000. After going through it many times and discussing it, it seemed to me that he was equitably entitled to this money. He does not get over fifty per cent of his claim.
'Mr. GRAHAM: I am the last man to find fault with the settlement of a claim on equitable grounds as against legal technicalities.


Francis Cochrane: Legally he was out of court.


George Perry Graham: There are many claims- I suppose there are still-that have some foundation in equity, though not in law, and I would not object to their all being cleaned up in an equitable manner. I think the Government has no more right to

beat a man on technical grounds than one man would have a right to refuse to pay an account to another on technical grounds if he really owed the money. If the minister has come to the conclusion that the country owes Cory & Laverdure $16,000, I have no objection. All I am saying is that I looked into the matter, and I thought, with the facts before me, that they were not entitled to the money.


Francis Cochrane: As the hon. gentleman says, there are many of these claims. Mr. Cleveland has been here to get me to go into his claim. I have not done it yet. The claim is very old; the engineers on the ground at the time are gone. It is hard to work out what is due him in equity. I could not do it this year, but I believe there is something due him, and I hope to get at it,


William John Macdonald: What is the reason against him?


Francis Cochrane: He is outlawed for one thing.


William John Macdonald: That does not matter.


Francis Cochrane: The claim was more for extras, outside the contract itself. It was in the department even before my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) was minister.


George Perry Graham: Long before.


Francis Cochrane: It was a difference between Mr. Schreiber and the Board of Engineers.
Welland canal-towards construction of high
level bridge over canal, $50,000.


George Perry Graham: The Government pays that entirely?


Francis Cochrane: No, nor half. And we get rid of a low level bridge there which would have to be replaced soon, and a man will not have to be kept there.
Grand Trunk Pacific railway-remuneration to Government director of, $2,000.


George Perry Graham: Has the minister a copy of the director's report?


Francis Cochrane: No.


George Perry Graham: He usually makes a report of some kind.


Francis Cochrane: If he has, I have not yet received it.
Canals-staff and repairs, etc., $1,452,500.


George Perry Graham: At the Cardinal locks a statistical officer, Dr. Williams, was dismissed and a brother of the Minister of Cus-103
toms was appointed in his place. That was bad enough, but I am told that the new appointee does not do the work and that an assistant has been appointed to help him. There is no more need of an assistant there than there is of a fifth wheel to a coach. I wish the minister would look into the matter.


Francis Cochrane: All right.


George Perry Graham: How does the staff compare in size with that of last year?


Francis Cochrane: It has not been increased to any extent. Of course the elevator at Port Colborne has been working day and night; we have had to put on double shifts.
Canals - compassionate allowance to the widow of the late Michael Lawrence Allen, who was accidentally killed while in discharge of his duties as handy-man on the Lachine canal, $1,000. *


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am glad that the minister has put in items 362 and 363, compassionate allowances, and I want him to add one more. I brought to the attention of the minister the other night the matter of paying compensation to Mr. O'Rourke, who lost his wife under conditions similar to those in respect of these other two votes.


Francis Cochrane: My hon. friend says
that he would obtain further information and speak to me about it, but I have not received that information.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I will give it to my hon.
friend now. The hon. gentleman has information in his office with regard to this man's wife having been killed. Application was made for compensation. I was glad to hear my hon. friend say that he allowed these other claims to pass not on legal grounds, but on equitable grounds. I think he took the right ground.


Francis Cochrane: Cases are not at all similar.


Arthur Bliss Copp: But the precedent is similar and my hon. friend's argument is similar. While perhaps this man legally was out of court, equitably he was entitled to some consideration. I have received information that this man is in a very delicate state of health; he is partially paralysed and has hard work to get along. When a compassionate allowance is made in these two cases one might also be made in his case. I know it would be gratefully received by him and would be appreciated by the people generally.


Francis Cochrane: The Supplementary
Estimates for 1915-16 will be down in the morning, so I am afraid it would be too late to get anything in this year, even if my hon. friend's new information would convince me that an allowance should be made.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11.40 p.m.
Tuesday, March 30, 1915.