1915-02-26

[Stage Direction]
Gedeon Rochon, Esq., for the electoral district of Terrebonne, introduced by Hon. C. J. Doherty and Hon. Louis Coderre.


Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved:: That a Select Committee, composed of Messrs. Meighen, Fowler, McCraney, Gauthier, Sinclair, Guthrie, Fripp, Morphy and the mover, he appointed to consider and report upon amendments to the Criminal Code which have been or may be suggested at the present session of Parliament, with power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine wit- ' nesses under oath, and to report from time to time.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I might point out that it is not necessary to ask for power to examine witnesses, for Select Committees already have that power.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Two Bills have been introduced, one by the hon. member for Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair) and the other by the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. McCraney), seeking to amend the Criminal Code. When these Bills came up for their second reading it was agreed that they should be referred to a Select Committee such as is now proposed, and which would consider these and any other amendments to the Criminal Code that might be suggested. The reason why we take this course is that the Government did not contemplate introducing this session any legislation looking to the amendment of the Criminal Code, it being thought that under the present circumstances legislation should be limited to such as was necessitated by the war, or in some way connected with the present state of war. Having reached this conclusion, I myself, and I think some of my colleagues, pointed out this intention to the persons suggesting amendments to the Criminal Code, who then naturally did not press for legislation. It seemed to us fair that if these suggestions were to be dealt with, an opportunity should be given to others having different suggestions to put forward. The purpose of this committee would be to consider the two Bills I have mentioned, and such other amendments as might be suggested-tnere was a suggested amendment by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) with regard to copyright-and to embody all the suggestions that are approved in one Bill, which could then be introduced and passed through this House.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: There can be no objection to the granting of this motion and the organization of this committee; but the hon. gentleman will be opening the door very widely if he goes outsHe the two or

three Bills which have been introduced this session. Not that I have any objection myself; but there are merits in the Bills winch have been introduced, and if the hon. gentleman goes beyond these I am afraid we shall not get a Bill through this session.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I would expect the committee to take action only on such suggestions as might be shown to be really imperative, and I hope we shall be able to keep within that limit.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Charles Joseph Doherty: With tne consent of the House I beg to move~that Public Bills and Orders be taken up so that we may refer the two Bills I have mentioned to the Select Committee, and so avoid delay. I therefore beg to move:
That the order for the House to go into committee on Bill No. 19 (Mr. McCraney) be discharged, and that the said Bill be referred to the Select Committee appointed this day.-


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. MURPHY:: My hon. friend also
mentioned the motion standing in the name of my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux). Is it intended to refer that to the committee as well?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The hon. member for
Rouville did not give notice of a Bill, but he made a motion in the course of which he suggested an amendment to the Criminal Code. I shall see that the suggestion is put before the committee. I beg also to move:
That the order for the House to go into committee on Bill No. 40 (Mr. Sinclair) be discharged, and that the said Bill be referred to the Select Committee appointed this day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.	.


Hon. W. T. WHITE (Minister of Finance) moved:: That it is expedient, in pursuance of the provisions of section 4 of the Act assented to on the twenty-second day of August, 1914, intituled : " An Act to conserve the Commercial and Financial Interests of Canada," to continue in force the proclamation in the form following published on the fifth day of September, 1914j in the Canada Gazette:
Arthur.
Canada.
George the Fifth, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India.

To all to whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in any wise concern, -Greeting:
A Proclamation.
E. L. Newcombe,
Deputy Minister of Justice, Canada.
Whereas in and by section 4 of an Act of the Parliament of Canada passed in the fifth year of Our Reign and intituled: " An Act to- conserve the Commercial and Financial Interests of Canada," it was provided amongst other things that in case of war, invasion, riot or insurrection, real or apprehended, and in cast ot any real or apprehended financial crisis, our Governor in Council might by proclamation published in the Canada Gazette:
(a)	authorize the making of advances to the chartered banks and to the savings banks to which the Quebec Savings Banks Act, 1913, applies, by the issue of Dominion notes upon the pledge of securities, deposited with our said minister, of such kind and amount as may be approved by the Treasury Board; such advances to be repayable at such tmes as the Board may determine with interest at a rate likewise determined by the Board of not less than five per cent per annum;
(b)	authorize the chartered banks to make payments in the bank notes issued *>y such banks instead of in gold or Dominion notes, but the total amount of uie notes of any chartered bank in circula-ion nootes, but the total amount of the amount of its notes issuable under the provisions of the Bank Act and of the next clause (c) ;
(c)	authorize the several chartered banks to issue excess circulation, from and including the first day of March in any year, to and including the last day of August next ensuing, or during any part of such period, to amounts not exceeding fifteen per cent of the combined unimpaired capital and rest or reserve fund of the respective banks, as stated in their respective statutory monthly returns to our said minister for the month immediately preceding that in which the additional amount is issued;
(d)	suspend the redemption in gold of Dominion notes,-
Now know ye that by and with the advice of our Privy Council for Canada we do by these presents proclaim and direct that by and on the date of the publication of this our proclamation in the Canada Gazette, the said orders in council shall be revoked ; and we do further by these presents declare and proclaim as follows, that:
(a)	the making of advances to the chartered banks, and to the savings banks to which the Quebec Savings Banks Act, 1913, applies, by the issue of Dominion notes upon the pledge of securities ns provided in the said Act, be authorized;
(b)	the chartered banks be authorized, subject to the provisions and limitations set forth in the said Act to make payments in the bank notes issued by such banks instead of in gold or Dominion notes;
(c)	the several chartered banks be authorized to issue excess circulation as in the said Act defined from and including the first day of March, 1915, to and including the last day of August, 1915; and
(d)	the redemption in gold of Dominion notes by the Receiver General of Canada be suspended subject to the provisions of the said Act from the date of the publication of this our proclamation in the Canada Gazette.
Of all which our loving subjects and all others whom these presents may concern, are hereby required to take notice and to govern themselves accordingly.
In testimony whereof, we have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent, and the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. Witness, Our Most Dear and Entirely Beloved Uncle and Most Faithful Counsellor Field Marshal His Royal Highness Prince Arthur William Patrick Albert, Duke of Connaught and of Strath-earn, Earl of Sussex (in the Peerage of the United Kingdom), Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha; Knight of Our Most Noble Order of the Garter; Knight of Our Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle; Knight of Our Most Illustrious Order of Saint Patrick; one of Our Most Honourable Privy Council; Great Master of Our Most Honourable Order of the Bath; Knight Grand Commander of Our Most Exalted Order of the Star of India; Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George; Knight Grand Commander of Our Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire; Knight Grand Cross of Our Royal Victorian Order; Our Personal Aide-de-Camp; Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Our Dominion of Canada.
At Our Government House, in Our City of Ottawa, this third day of September, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fourteen, and in the fifth year of Our Reign.
By command,
P. Pelletier,
Acting Under-Secretary of State.
He said: Mr. Speaker, under the Finance Act, 1914, which was passed at the August session, authority was given to the Governor in Council, in case of war or any financial crisis, by proclamation published in the Canada Gazette, to authorize the making of advances in Dominion notes to banks upon securities approved by the Treasury Board; to authorize the chartered banks to make payments in bank notes instead of in Dominion notes or gold; to authorize the chartered banks to issue excess circulation during, that period of the year in which previously to the passing of this legislation they had not had that power and to suspend the redemption in gold of Dominion notes. The object of the Act was to give additional volume and flexibility to the currency and to conserve the gold supply of the Dominion. I draw the attention of the House to subsection 5

of section 4 of this Act, which reads as follows :
No proclamation issued under the provisions of this section shall continue in force for more than thirty days after the beginning of the first session of Parlament held after the issue thereof, unless it is approved by resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament.
In September last the Government, in pursuance oiT the authority conferred upon it by the Act, issued a proclamation authorizing the doing-of the several things which I have just mentioned, and it becomes necessary now, if this proclamation is to continue in effect, as the Government thinks it should, that a resolution should be passed by the House of Commons and by the Senate continuing it in force. While no such financial conditions exist as prevailed at the time this legislation was passed in August last, it is deemed prudent by the Government and by the financial and business community that the proclamation should be continued. It is quite impossible to forecast what effect the vicissitudes of the war may have upon international finance or monetary conditions in the great credit centres of the world, such as London and New York. Parliament having met on February 4, it is desirable that this legislation should be passed without further delay, The Budget. debate is proceeding next week and, we should hope, without interruption. I would therefore ask the House to facilitate the adoption of this resolution. I have already brought down, in answer to a question, information as to the amount of advances which have been made to the chartered banks in Dominion notes under he authority of this legislation. To refresh the memory of the House, I may say that the total amount issued to January 31, 1915, was $14,400,000, and the total amount outstanding of indebtedness by the banks to the Dominion Government was $7,900,000, which indicates that there has been repaid to the Government $6,500,000.
I might say to the House that the amount of the advances made to the banks is by no means the measure of the advantage which has been conferred by this legislation. It has enabled the banks, among other things, to meet treasury bills of governments, municipalities and corporations maturing in London, it has enabled them to make advances to governments, municipalities, corporations and other customers, and it has assisted them, better than they otherwise would have been in a
*"Mr. W. T. White.]
position to do, to finance the crop movement of last fall. The banks were required to make payments on behalf of their clients of treasury bills maturing due, to make advances to provinces, municipalities and other customers, and they did so the more readily by reason of the fact that they knew-and in many cases they had arranged in advance for it-that if it should become necessary, they could obtain advances of Dominion notes from the Government upon the pledge of the- securities which they had taken, and which would be approved by the treasury board. The principle of the Bill was fully discussed and unanimously concurred in last August. I do not think, therefore, that it is necessary that I should discuss the substance of the legislation at this time. It may be a satisfaction to the House, which, as I have stated, unanimously approved the legislation, to know that it was instantaneously efficacious for the purpose of meeting the object we had in view when it was enacted, namely, to add to the volume of our currency and enable the financial institutions of the country, in the public interest, better to withstand the strain, stress and exigency of the trying conditions which prevailed as a result of the sudden outbreak of war. If at any subsequent stage of the session the House should desire to discuss more fully either the principle of the Act or our action under it, it is unnecessary for me to say that we shall be glad to afford an opportunity for such discussion, but in the meantime, unless this resolution is adopted, the proclamation will lapse, and I, therefore, hope that the House will facilitate its adoption.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: The principle involved in this resolution was approved by Parliament at its August session. In order to make that legislation effective, the Minister of Finance states that after this House has been in session for thirty days, it is necessary to authorize, by resolution, a similar proclamation by order in council, and I do not think there is any objection to Parliament granting this power to the Government. It is quite possible that this power might be of great value to the country in certain' circumstances. While it is quite true the financial condition of the banks of Canada to-day is such that they can,
I think, reasonably meet all demands upon them, still, as the minister has suggested, the situation might change very quickly. I would also point out that there is not any very great danger of the abuse of this privilege by prospective borrowers, which in this

case must be chartered banks, owing to the fact that they must pay 5 per cent interest upon any loans, and" if their own position is strong they are not likely to make application for loans from the Government. I think, however, we should have from the Minister of Finance a statement showing the financial result of these operations to the Treasury Department, whether it has been financially profitable or whether it has covered its cost. I presume that in all loans we have received the statutory interest rate of 5 per cent, and that the transaction has netted some little profit to the treasury. The Minister of Finance objects to giving detailed information as to the amounts advanced to the respective banks, and I will not press for that to-day, knowing that on a future occasion we shall have opportunity to make further inquiry and to discuss the matter fully, if we so desire.


William Thomas White: I place upon the table the form of application under the Finance Act, which is signed by the banks, and the pledge agreement executed by the banks in connection with advances made. Loans were made to some seven banks, to the total amount of $14,400,000, and of that $6,500,000 has been repaid. I am quite satisfied that any amount outstanding would be repaid tomorrow morning if we desired it. It is unnecessary to say to the House that in addition to the, pledge of particular securities approved by the Treasury Board, under the Bank Act, the Dominion Government has a lien next after the note circulation, upon all assets of banks for any claims it may have against them, so that no question as to security could possibly arise. I have already explained why I consider it undesirable that I should bring down information showing what individual banks had availed themselves of the privilege of the Act. With the object of inducing the banks more readily to make applications for loans, in order to put them in a better position to meet the requirements of their customers throughout the country, I stated in a letter to them that their applications would be regarded as confidential. It did not occur to me then that the information would be asked for in Parliament, because in the fall of 1907, when advances were made in Dominion notes to banks, through the Bank of Montreal, no particulars were obtained, so far as I am aware, even by the department; the Bank of Montreal making the loans as the agent of the Government. I do not know that the matter is of very great importance, but certainly I would be the
last to deny any information to Parliament that it might desire to have. Having promised the banks that I would not make public their applications, I feel reluctant to do so, and I trust this will be satisfactory to the House. I should be pleased to give to my right hon. friend, as leader of the Opposition, details as to the loans to the banks, but I hesitate for the reason I have given, to make the information public.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Were these advances to the banks made out of the Dominion notes which the Minister of Finance had the power to issue under the special right Parliament gave him last August?


William Thomas White: Yes, all these advances
were made in Dominion notes, under the authority of the Finance Act, 1914, passed at the August session.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I understood the Minister of Finance to say that he was introducing a measure to ratify the overdrawing of these notes, and when that measure is introduced we shall have full opportunity to discuss the whole question.


William Thomas White: It is my intention to introduce a Bill validating and confirming the action of the Governor in Council, in making issues of Dominion notes to the amount of $26,000,000, outside of and in addition to the $15,000,000 additional Dominion note circulation which was authorized by the Dominion Notes Act passed at the August session of Parliament. The Bill will be introduced within a few days and of course it will be subject to discussion.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What was the
amount?


William Thomas White: The Dominion issued, in
November last, ten million dollars for its own general purpos'es. There were advances in Dominion notes to the Canadian Northern Railway Company, during September, October, November, and December aggregating $10,000,000 upon the security of $12,500,000 of the debentures of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, guaranteed as to principal and interest by the Dominion of Canada, that is to say, we made advances at the rate of 80. We made an advance of $6,000,000 to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company over the same period of time and for the same purposes, namely to enable it to continue construction and effectuate the intention of Parliament in giving a guarantee of its securities. This sum of $6,000,000 was

advanced upon the security of $7,500,000 of Grand Trunk Pacific debentures guaranteed as to principal and interest by the Dominion Government; that is, at the rate of 80. It is my intention to introduce a Bill, as I have said, to confirm the action of the Governor in Council in issuing these Dominion notes.


William John Macdonald: The minister says that $20,000,000 more of Dominion notes were issued than he was authorized last August to issue?


William Thomas White: Dominion notes were issued to the amount of $26,000,000 in excess of the amount which the Government would have been authorized to issue under the Dominion Notes Act of last session and under the Finance Act. But-though I do not propose to argue the matter now or to depend upon the Act-I am quite satisfied that the Governor in Council had under the War Measures Act, if we desired to rest upon it, the necessary authority for this action.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is not so sure as the hon. gentleman seems to think.


William Thomas White: I am expressing my own opinion; no doubt the right hon. gentleman has his. But I am satisfied I should have the sanction of very high legal authority, authority which my right hon. friend would respect, for such an argument.


William John Macdonald: Z. A. Lash?
Mr, WHITE: No, not Mr. Lash. By reason of the fact that we introduced at the August session the Dominion Notes Act and the Finance Act dealing specially with this matter of note issue, I think it only proper that the Government should introduce legislation confirmatory of its action.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me the discussion is rather irregular, as it does not refer to this resolution, but to another matter entirely. It would be better to deal with the resolution before the House.


Wilfrid Laurier: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Speaker. But referring to one observation of my hon. friend, I never knew a case so desperate but that you could find legal authority of high character to support it. I am not expressing an unwarranted opinion when I say to my hon. friend that he has beside him and behind him, I doubt not, very respectable opinion that will justify what he has done. Bowing to your ruling, we will not take up the question. Confining myself to the reso-
[Mr. W. T. White. 1
ution before the House, we have certainly no objection to the renewal of the provisions which would enable my hon. friend to continue in force the proclamation he has issued. For my part I am gratified to know that the power given to the Government to make advances to the banks was so limited in its application as events have shown. It is almost evident that there might have been no necessity for such legislation. The amount of $14,000,000 which was advanced to the banks under the Act is so insignificant as to show that the financial position of the banks was so strong that they did not want the legislation. In that case, the Act was granted from an abundance of caution, and it is renewed for the same reason, I suppose. I have only one point to take issue with my hon. friend upon, and that is his reluctance or diffidence, in giving information as to the banks that applied to him for advances. He tells us that only a little more than $7,000,000 is due now to the Government. That is so small an amount as not to be worth making an issue of in this House. I respect the precaution taken by my hon. friend, though I think it was not needed. I think he would do well to take the power to bring down to Parliament in future the information which, under the circumstances, we will not press for.


[Stage Direction]
Resolution agreed to.

Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. In yesterday's issue of the Evening Telegram of Toronto there is a report of the Budget debate of the previous day as follows:
J. G. Turriff came next with a speech wherewith he probably intends to spread his riding of Assiniboia-although the month is but February. He castigated the Government for extravagance 'and said that if the people had a chance to mark their ballots few would vote for the high expenditures now in vogue.
" Let us go to the country and find out," was Mr. Bradbury's bold retort to that.
"You can't go too quickly for us," returned Mr. Turriff, and the Liberals slapped their desks as lustily as the Tories had a moment before. The westerner loudly proclaimed that the Government dare not go to the country yet, though the members were busy sending out campaign literature.
" So are you," interrupted Mr. Bradbury.
" Well, I'm not saying anything about that," confessed the western liberal.
What I object to in that report is this: Mr. Bradbury may have made the remark attributed to him, but if so, I did not hear it; and certainly I never made any such

remark as, " Well, I am not saying anything about that." I had not any such thing in mind and could not possibly have said it, because as a matter of fact there has been no campaign or party literature sent out by the Liberal party since last August. But this reply attributed to me would give the impression that such literature had been sent out and that I knew about it but did not care to discuss it. Had Mr. Bradbury made the remark and had I heard it, I would have contradicted it there and then. The remark does not appear in Hansard, and I do not know whether the hon. gentleman made it or not. But I am taking this opportunity to state that I did not make the remark attributed to me and also that no campaign or party literature has been sent out by the Liberal party since last August.
17th BATTALION NOVA SCOTIAN
HIGHLANDERS.	.
On the Orders of the Day being called:


Air. KYTE:: I desire to call the attention of the Government to the following press despatch that is going the rounds of the Canadian newspapers:
London, Feb. 12.-The 17th Battalion, Nova Scotian Highlanders is no more. This battalion, one o: the bist trained and disciplined of the Canadian overseas contingent, has been broken up, the men requisitioned and sent to make up deficiencies caused by sickness, death and desertion in the ranks of the Canadian Highland Brigade. Colonel Struan Robertson was relieved of his command on the 28th of January, and the only satisfaction which he has been able to obtain from the General Officer Commanding is " that the authorities were down on him."
The despatch contains many other matters affecting the standing of the Nova Scotia contingent at the front. I desire to ask the Government if they have information to verify or contradict this despatch.


William Thomas White: The despatch, so far as I know, has not been drawn to the attention of the Government, and we have no information with respect to the matter referred to.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Air. Sevigny in the Chair.
Civil Government-Department of Labour- Salaries. $33,112.50.	.
['Yes, we say that this is to be subject to the provisions of sections 361, 362 and 363 of the Railway Act, which are very wide and all-embracing in regard to the protection that the hon. gentleman has in mind. They must take it before the Railway Commission. ,\nBill reported, read the third time and passed.\nThe following Bills were also considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed, without discussion:\nI Mr. Lancaster.]\nBill No. 4, respecting the Alberta Central Railway Company.-Mr. Michael Clark.\nBill No. 5, respecting the Athabasca, and Grande Prairie Railway Company.-Mr. Green.\nBill No. 6, respecting the Brantford and Hamilton Electric Railway Company.-Mr. Barker.\nBill No. 7, respecting the British Columbia and White River Railway Company.- Mr. Clements.\nBill No. 23, respecting the James Bay and Eastern Railway Company.-Mr. Girard.\nBill No. 25, respecting the South Ontario Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Wm. Smith.\nBill No. 26, respecting the Southern Central Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Green.\nBill No. 22, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway, Ontario.-Mr. Guilbault.\nBill No. 10, respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Macdonald.']
Wilfrid Laurier: Any resignations in the Department of Labour?


Hon. W. T. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour):: Yes, we have had twenty-four 31
resignations. But the newspapers did not mention these at all.


Wilfrid Laurier: The newspapers cannot mention what they do not know. We have never heard of this until this moment.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It was all in the return that was brought down, but the newspapers left out the resignations. Nearly all these resignations were of correspondents of the Labour Gazette. As hon. members know, we have about sixty-six correspondents in the principal localities in Canada.


Mr. NESBITT:: They are not paid anything.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They are paid from $125
to $300 a year. A resignation among them may be due to>
the fact that a person removes from one city to another.


Wilfrid Laurier: These are not members of the Civil Service?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: But they are included in the return of dismissals, resignations and appointments.


Wilfrid Laurier: It has been stated in the debate that in one department alone seven hundred members of the Civil Service had resigned. I was for some years connected with the Government and I never knew there was such a virtue of resignation in human nature as I have found out since hon. gentlemen opposite came into office. But the people to whom the Alinister of Labour refers were not members of the Civil Service, but temporary employees to gather information for the minister.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Perhaps the right hon. gentleman has not noticed the exact wording of this order for a return: "How many employees of the Federal Government of Canada"-it is not confined to the Civil Service-" including all services and all departments." So it includes all employees.


William John Macdonald: Has the Alinister of Labour pursued the policy of the former Postmaster General, who has now gone to what we may call a higher sphere?. When that gentleman wished to get rid of anybody in his department, he sent him a letter telling ' him he had better resign, and enclosing a form of resignation. Did the Alinister of Labour follow that interesting and original method?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: In what we call the
inside service, not a single man or woman

who was in the service of the department when I took charge of it has been dismissed. There was one whom I appointed, and with whom I took the course my turn, friend has spoken of-I intimated to him that unless he resigned we would dismiss him.


Wilfrid Laurier: Dismissed by invitation?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, appointed by me by mistake.


Wilfrid Laurier: What was the mistake? Was he a Grit?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No, I would not have appointed him if he had been a Grit.


Mr. CARROLL:: How many correspondents of the Labour Gazette have resigned since the minister took charge of the department?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Twenty out of the twenty-four designations were of correspondents.


William F. Carroll: And does the number of new employees appointed set forth in the return include appointments to replace these people?
Mr. .CROTHERS:	Yes. The return
showed 60 appointed, 21 dismissed, and 24 resigned-a total of 45 dismissed and resigned, 15 less than the number appointed. Of these 15 we appointed three additional fair wage officers, one at Vancouver, one at Winnipeg and one in Ontario. I have been urged to appoint another, and am considering the advisability of doing so. There is not so much work now, however, for the fair wage officers, and it is likely that no additional appointment will be made until the public works are somewhat revived. I have accounted for three of the fifteen; four of them were female correspondents of the Labour Gazette. There was a demand for female correspondents, whose duty would be especially to look after the interests of women and children, and as an experiment I appointed four in the four larger cities of Canada. They have proved a great success, and as soon as conditions are normal I intend to appoint female correspondents in other places as well. When we came into power there were five vacancies among the correspondents of the Labour Gazette. This accounts for twelve out of the fifteen, and we have appointed three additional officers in the statistical branch, which has expanded a great deal during the last three years. That accounts for the additional fif-

teen officers, the total of 60 being made up of 21 dismissals, 24 resignations and 15 new appointments.


William F. Carroll: At what dates did the 20 correspondents resign, and were . their resignations voluntary?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I could not give my
hon. friend the dates, which would be spread over a period of three years, but I can get the information for him.


William F. Carroll: In a return brought down March 4, 1914, this question was asked:
How many employees of the Federal Government of Canada, including all services and all departments, have been dismissed from October 10, 1911, to the present date?
That would cover a period of three years and some months. The next question was:
How many have resigned, including employees of the Federal Government of Canada in all services and In all departments?
The answer was:
One resigned and one transferred to another department.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think that is a mistake on my hon. friend's part. I have before me the answers to the questions so far as the Labour Department is concerned. The answer to the first question is 21, and to the second, 24.


William F. Carroll: The question which I
have read applies to all departments.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not responsible
for that; I never saw the return except so far as it was connected with the Labour Department. I have given the answers which were made to the questions so far as they apply to the Labour Department; if in the hon. gentleman's return the answer is. given as one, there must be an error somewhere.


William F. Carroll: How many officers are
there in the Department of Labour at the present time, including correspondents and outside employees?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think the exact number including correspondents, is 109.
V


Mr. MARCIL:: Were any correspondents of the Labour Gazette dismissed for political reasons, or is the paper a non-political publication?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: When I was placed in charge of the department I asked an officer to report on the efficiency of the labour correspondents throughout Canada. The officer, who was a Liberal, reported that in

many cases the work was not efficient or satisfactory, and we dispensed with the services of those to whom this applied. Three were relieved of their duties because of political partisanship.


Charles Marcil: With respect to the large number of unemployed in Montreal and in other Canadian cities, has the minister information as to whether matters are improving, remaining stationary or getting worse, or whether there is any probability of an improvement within the next few months? So far as Montreal is concerned, the matter is getting to be very serious.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Part of the duties of the Labour Gazette correspondents is to report monthly as to the conditions of employment in their various localities. Before the war broke out in July last I circularized these correspondents and requested them to answer certain questions with regard to unemployment, prices, wages, etc., and since that time they have been sending in weekly reports. In addition to that, the fair wage officers, of whom we have five, have covered their respective territories three times and have sent in three special reports checking up the reports made by the correspondents of the Labour Gazette. As the number of unemployed varies from day to day and from week to week, we have not been able to take anything like a census, but we have had an estimate made, based on information received from relief officers, heads of labour organizations and others specially interested in these subjects in the various localities. A great deal has been done to relieve unemployment. The Immigration Department has 163 special officers engaged all over Canada, who strive to have men placed upon the farms. They have also 30 regular agents whose offices 4 p.m. since the war broke out have virtually been turned into labour exchange bureaux; these officers have located a great many men on the farms. Private labour exchanges have also located a great many. Then the war has given employment to many. About 100,000 have enlisted with our troops and many thousands are engaged at the present time in making bodies for shells for the British Government. There are about a hundred factories engaged in that work in Canada at the present time. Since the 1st August last many thousands have been employed in manufacturing supplies for the Militia Department. Our reports, which are right up to date, show that conditions are not 314
nearly so bad as they were a few months ago. Now let us see what the provinces are doing. The Government of British Columbia early undertook to look after the unemployed in that province by providing road work and making loans to municipalities to enable them to carry on public works. The Government of Alberta is also advancing large sums of money to several municipalities to enable them to find work for the unemployed and to provide relief work. For instance, it is giving some seven thousand dollars a month to Calgary, and about the same amount to Edmonton, fifteen hundred dollars a month to Medicine Hat and Lethbridge, and a small amount to Taber, a small place south of Lethbridge. In Manitoba there is very little unemployment. The Immigration Department has distributed amongst the farmers of Manitoba some four or five thousand men from the city of Winnipeg. As regards the East, there is very little complaint from the maritime provinces. Montreal and Toronto have more grounds for complaint as regards unemployment than any other cities in the Dominion. There have been a large number out of work in Montreal and Toronto, and I believe a considerable number still are out of work in those two cities. But outside of these two places there is not much to complain about at the present time. The Agricultural Department has relieved the situation in Toronto by sending many men out to the farms. Altogether things are getting better. Several thousand men have also been interned by the Justice Department. Shortly after the war began I wrote to all the provincial premiers making suggestions on these lines, and I got satisfactory replies from all except from the Premier of Quebec. The others said they would look after their own unemployed. The only reply I got to my letter to the Premier of the province of Quebec was an assurance that he would place my communication before his colleagues; that was all. I think the province of Quebec is the only one where nothing has been done by the Provincial Government towards relieving the unemployed.


Charles Marcil: It is mostly mechanics or labourers who make up the unemployed in the city of Montreal?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Mostly unskilled
labourers. I have a detailed statement here from one of my fair wage officers, and it shows that a good many engaged in the building trades in Montreal are out of
4&4

work. I understand that the Montreal Builders' Exchange proposed last fall to continue building operations as far as possible, provided the mechanics would accept a certain rate of wages. The mechanics, however, would not agree and the members of the Builders' Exchange said they could not afford to go on erecting buildings at any other rate, and so work was stopped.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister tell us whether the Dominion proposes to do anything in the near future towards relieving the unemployed in Montreal and Toronto?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Last week I sent to Montreal Mr. DuBreuil, who has charge of that sort of work in the province of Quebec, to make a thorough investigation in a good many directions. He is to give me a detailed report, but I have not got it yet. 1 will be pleased to show it to my hon. friend when it comes.


Charles Marcil: I know the minister is cognizant of the condition of affairs in Montreal, for he reads our papers. Only last week the Archbishop called on the Board of Control to ask that money should be distributed amongst the needy. The oldest residents say that things have never been so bad, and I am glad to know that the minister is following the situation, and will do all he can to relieve the very serious conditions existing in Montreal at the present time.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: The minister has not told us how he proposes to relieve conditions in Montreal and Toronto. Investigations are all right, but conditions have been bad for a long time now, and while the investigation is being carried on people are going about hungry. I saw in a Toronto paper the other day that a large procession of labour men paraded the streets of that city with this device on their flags: ' British subjects we were born, and British subjects we will soon be dead.' The minister no doubt has been thinking over the matter, and I think the House is entitled to hear what solution he proposes for this serious state of affairs.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend knows as well as I do that unemployment can be relieved to a greater or less extent in many ways. The Dominion Government for instance, can go on with public works if it has plenty of money, and in that way give work to the unemployed. The provincial Governments and municipalities, if they have money, can also do the same thing. My hon. friend, perhaps could set half a
'
dozen men to work. I wonder if he has done it. If he has not, perhaps he has not fully done his duty. In a time of depression such as this, the Federal Government, Provincial Governments, municipalities and individuals should all join together and help the unemployed. Each one should do his part; that is the only remedy I know of.


John Howard Sinclair: That is a very indefinite remedy.


William F. Carroll: When the minister came back from his famous trip to England last year to learn how labour matters were conducted there, he made the statement, which appeared in the Ottawa Journal I believe, that he was going to revolutionize the existing labour legislation of Canada, and take steps to have introduced throughout this country a chain of labour bureaux. He stated that legislation for that purpose would be introduced at this session of Parliament. The minister has had the matter brought to his attention at various times, and by various labour organizations in this country. During the minister's unavoidable absence on account of sickness last year, this matter was taken up with the then acting Minister of Labour, the present Minister of Justice; and I understand that the Government gave some undertaking to at least introduce legislation at the present session of Parliament with a view to the formation of a central labour bureau with branch offices throughout Canada. This session, I understand, is going to be short,.and yet nothing has been done so far as we know by the Minister of Labour with the view of introducing these labour bureaux into Canada. Any one who is more or less conversant with the labour situation knows that labour bureaux in Europe have been a wonderful success. They have actually surpassed the expectations of the labour people of the countries where they have been introduced. The Minister of Labour is not overburdened in his department, yet, after having given this interview to the Journal last year and intimating that this matter would be taken up in a forcible way at this session of Parliament, he has until this time shown no inclination to bring down a Bill for the establishment of labour bureaux. He has agreed with the representatives of labour organizations throughout the country that labour bureaux are excellent things and that they have worked out admirably in other countries where they have been established. He did say at the time that perhaps the Government would not under-

take to pay the travelling expenses' that would be incurred in connection with the labour bureaux but that they would undertake to establish them. I have had letters from various labour organizations throughout the country asking me to bring this matter to the attention of Parliament and of the Government, and particularly to the attention of the minister, and I wish to ask him the reasons why he has not fulfilled the promise he made last year that he would introduce legislation at this session to establish labour bureaux, whether it is his intention to bring this legislation down and if not, why?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not think 1 ever made any statement to the effect that it was my definite intention to establish labour bureaux in Canada. I have often said that I had considered it, and I have considered it. My hon. friend (Mr. Carroll) refers to a trip to England. I did go to England. I am not the first minister who has gone to England. I went to England especially to look into this question of labour bureaux and I put in four weeks at this sort of work. When the labour bureaux were first introduced in England about five years ago, and for some time afterwards, they were not looked upon with favour either by the employer or the employee. After they had been in operation for	two
or three years they seemed to be more in favour with both classes. At the present time I am told that they are very much in disfavour especially by the working people of England. It is very often contended that these bureaux should be established now especially by reason of the depression that exists. Every economist who has written on this subject has pointed out that labour bureaux should never be established in times of depression, that the proper time to establish them, if you expect them to work out successfully, is when conditions are prosperous. They are sure to turn out a failure if you attempt to establish them in times of depression. Another mistake is that a great many people think that the object of labour bureaux is to create employment. They never were intended for anything of the kind and they are not used for that purpose in England, Germany or anywhere else. They have had labour bureaux in Germany for many years and still they have hundreds of thousands of unemployed people to feed every winter. It is a mistake to suppose that labour bureaux create employment; they do not. They are not for
the purpose of relief or for the purpose of giving work. The only thing they claim for them is that they will assist in distributing labour. One can understand that in a time such as this where there is a surplus of labour everywhere they would not be of very much use. Suppose there is a surplus of carpenters in every town and city in Canada, a surplus of a hundred or more, and you have a surplus of 200 or 500 in the city of Montreal; what would the labour bureau do towards relieving their positions? Send them to Vancouver where they already have a surplus of carpenters? That would not be of any use in a time of depression. The principal party who is interested in the establishing of these labour bureaux is one who has been harassing not only this Government but previous Governments during the last five or six years and that person seems to be more especially interested than anybody else. That person has gone so far as to prepare a Bill, send it all around the country and say that it is a Bill that I prepared and proposed to introduce this session-I have never prepared a Bill and I have never authorized anybody else to do so. What are the facts in regard to the labour organizations?	The Trades and Labour
Congress, at	their meeting at St.
John, New Brunswick, last September, passed a resolution substantially opposed to the establishing of exchanges in Canada. At a meeting of the Trades and Labour Council in Winnipeg last week they were unanimously opposed to the suggestion, and they arrived at that conclusion after quite a long discussion. I have received from some local Trades and Labour Councils a resolution passed at the request of this party who is so much interested, a person who wants to be appointed to inaugurate this system at a big salary-


William F. Carroll: Who is the gentleman?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It does not happen to be a gentleman; it is a lady. I have received from some local Trades and Labour Councils copies of a resolution passed in favour of the establishment of labour bureaux on the assumption that they would do something to provide labour for people who are out of wo,rk. That is not the object of them at all; they never pretend to do anything of the kind. The Trades and Labour Congress, composed of representatives from all over Canada, at their annual meeting at St. John, N.B., passed a resolution in substance opposed to it; and a very, strong resolution in opposition to such a system

was passed at a meeting in Winnipeg one night last week. Many of their leading men present at that meeting opposed it, and they gave particulars why they did not want it. A great many individual men, mechanics and others, are opposed to it, because, for instance if there is a scarcity of carpenters in Ottawa, they say that tends to increase their wages, and they do not want us to send in a number of men from Toronto to compete with them and reduce their wages. That is one of the lines they take in opposition to these bureaux. It is a matter that requires a great deal of consideration. In addition to what I have said, it would be a very expensive thing to undertake. Gentlemen who have had anything to do with Governments-this or any other Government-know that you cannot rent a building in a place like Montreal, Winnipeg or Vancouver, put a staff of people in that building, and do likewise in every town and city of Canada, without an immense expenditure. We have made a calculation upon that, and that is a matter that has to be considered in the present circumstances. The general feeling, I believe, amongst the workingmen is unfavourable to the establishment of national labour exchanges in Canada.


William F. Carroll: I have asked the Minister of Labour some questions which he has not deigned to answer. There is no person in this country who will for one moment contend that the establishment of a national labour bureau, with local offices throughout the country would create employment, whether it is established in times of depression or of prosperity. The minister says that there being so much depression at present in the country, it is not the time for the inauguration of a labour bureau, hut I Hold a contrary opinion. A year ago to-day there was as much if not more unemployment in Canada as there is now, and then the Minister of Labour was loud in his praise of the idea of establishing labour bureaux throughout Canada. The fact, as stated by the minister, that two organizations in this country have passed resolutions against the inauguration of such a bureau, is not complete evidence that the great bulk of the labouring people in this country are against the establishment of such a bureau, nor does it gainsay the fact that labour bureaux have been a great success wherever they have been established, and that they would be a success were they established in Canada. I asked the minister whether last year on his return from England he prom-
ised delegations, which waited on him, that he would introduce at this session of Parliament legislation to create labour bureaux in Canada, and whether or not it is his intention to introduce that Bill in accordance with the promise so given.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend has
been before the public long enough to know that he should not place entire reliance upon everything he sees in the public press. I do not think I ever made a definite statement that I would introduce a Bill of that kind this session, and even if I did conditions have changed during the past year. The Poor Law Commission was appointed by the Imperial Government in 1905, and in their report they say, with regard to these labour exchanges:
They were nearly all started in times of depression, exactly the wrong time to start a labour exchange. The time to start it is when trade is going up, because then the people whom you casualize have the best chance of finding other places for themselves.
I may add that the conditions in Canada are very different from the conditions in England. In England, if a carpenter in Liverpool goes to a labour exchange and asks if there is any employment for a carpenter, the United Kingdom being a small place territorially as compared with Canada, they are able to telephone around and in a few minutes they discover that carpenters are wanted in Manchester. The man says, I can not get to Manchester because I have no money, and the Government in that case supplies him with a warrant upon the railway to get to Manchester, and the employer is notified to deduct the amount from the first wages the man earns, and to send it back. I was told a year ago, when I was in England, that they had received in return 96 per cent of the money so advanced, which speaks very highly for the high sense of honour which actuates the mechanics and labouring people of old England. In Canada we could not, for instance, undertake to supply a dozen men, idle in Halifax, for work in Vancouver. I do not think from that point of view it would he practicable for the Government of Canada to undertake to do for people seeking employment here what is done for them in England. When I was in England I was satisfied that the system was working fairly well, but I am told that within the last year the working people have become very much dissatisfied with it. Something, however, has been done in this country already towards establishing these labour exchanges. The legislatures of Ontario and Quebec have established provincial

exchanges, and I think those in Quebec are working more satisfactorily than those in Ontario. Manitoba is also adopting the system; there are many municipalities throughout the country that have. established labour bureaux, and of course there are many private exchanges. The experience is that men prefer to deal with these private exchanges rather than with exchanges established by the provinces or by the municipalities. The necessity for labour exchanges in large centres like Montreal resulted from the large number of immigrants that were coming into the country-there are very few coming at the present time-and it is complained that some of these private agencies swindled these men. I sent an officer to Montreal to investigate, and he found out that one firm had swindled immigrants out of ten thousand dollars in a few years.


Charles Marcil: They exacted as high as fifteen dollars from a labourer.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That was our information.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I thought you were prosecuting them.
Mr. -CROTHERS: We had no power to prosecute them that being the duty of the province. But the Interior Department, under section 66 of the Immigration act, did pass rules and regulations for the governance of any one who had any dealings with immigrants, limiting the sum that they could charge any individual to one dollar,, requiring them to take out a license from the department, and providing heavy penalties for infringement. A great number of prosecutions have been had under these rules and regulations for the protection of immigrants, but of course they only apply to immigrants. In some cases, however, it has not worked out very well, because the immigrant desiring work will go in and tell one of these agents, when he gets to know the ropes, that he has been in the country over three years, and therefore he is not an immigrant any longer, and they proceed to fleece him, outside of the rules and regulations which we have made. It is for the province to look after these things; we have no jurisdiction. The provinces are trying to do something in the direction of getting good results out of labour (bureaux and so also are many of the municipalities. There are also a number of private agencies.


Charles Marcil: The Minister of Labour unintentionally said that the province of Quebec had done nothing for the unemployed in Montreal, but now he says that an important bureau of labour, established in that city by the provincial Government, has done good work.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It was established some years ago.


William F. Carroll: The Minister of Labour has not yet answered my question as to whether or not this Government intends to bring down legislation at this session of Parliament for the organization, creation and maintenance, to some extent at least, of a national labour bureau for Canada.
I base my arguments on the fact that the Minister of Labour, in an interview which he gave to the Ottawa Evening Journal, under date of May 20, 1914, said that he was going to introduce legislation at this session of Parliament. The article reads as follows:
Drastic Legislation to be Introduced dealing with Employment Matter.
Drastic Legislation to deal with the employment question will be introduced by the Government next session of Parliament. Action will be taken by the Canadian Government along the lines by which the Imperial Government has solved the difficulty in Great Britain. It was for the purpose of studying the methods pursued in England that Hon. T. W. Crothers, Minister of Labour, visited the old country last year. Since his return he has been in consultation with representative men in the various portions of Canada, and he is convinced, he said in conversation to-day, that he has evolved a scheme adapted to the needs of this country, and which will be a great boon to employers and workmen alike.
Incidentally, Mr. Crothers stated that there would be no labour legislation this year. He has fust recovered from a serious illness, and the session is now so near a close that it is impossible to get time for adequate consideration of the legislation he has in view.
In Great Britain the Government has established a number of labour bureaux, with a central office in London. All expenses are borne by the Government, and Mr. Crothers found that they were most excellently managed and had been a godsend. These bureaux supply workers for employers and work for those out of employment. There is a perfect system of information kept regarding the needs in the various parts of the country, and the unemployed are, therefore, not subjected to tne more or less misrepresentation of employment agents.
Travelling expenses are advanced to those who have to travel a distance to obtain work, and the experience is that 96 per cent of these have kept faith in refunding the expenses.
Mr. Crothers stares that the distances in Canada render it impossible for the Government to advance travelling expenses, but he believes that he has arrived at a solution of the difficulty by getting employers to advance the money.
The Minister of Labour has found that to allow persons out of work, especially immigrants, to get into the hands of employment

agents, has not been in the best interests ot workmen. He found, after going carefully into the matter, that one employment agent in Montreal had made $10,000 in three months out of immigrants alone, charging them as high as $15 and $16 to get them a job. He has stopped this extortion by compelling agents to take out a Government license, and there is now a regular system of inspection.
Mr. Crothers intends to go still further, and will establish Government bureaux at a number of centres of population. Accurate information regarding labour conditions in the various parts of the country will be available at each office, and to these offices those who desire employment will go. Employers also will be able to secure information as to the ability and record of those whom the bureau will recommend to them.
I agree with the Minister of Labour in everything that the Evening Journal reports him as saying. I agree with him also that it would be a great hardship for any Government to pay the travelling expenses of persons going long distances in Canada to secure work. He has told us also, however, that he has solved this problem in this way, namely, that he will get the employers to advance the travelling expenses of workmen, and they will deduct those expenses from the workmen's wages. That is all very excellent; but the trouble is that the Minister of Labour apparently is not doing anything to bring into effect this fine scheme which he evolved, and has no notion of bringing it into effect. I should not like to say that he is getting cold feet, because that is not a nice thing to say; but he has backed down from the position which he took last year when he was fresh from a country where labour bureaux had been an eminent success. I have here a long list of organizations throughout the country which have endorsed this idea of the establishment of a national labour bureau, and I will read some of the names to show that the people and the organizations of Canada everywhere have endorsed it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Has my hon. friend
got his information from the individual to whom I referred, who was seeking an interview?


William F. Carroll: The hon. minister has not deigned to tell me who the person is.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We both understand
who it is.


William F. Carroll: This petition is signed by N. J. Garland, Ottawa Board of Trade;
C.	G. Pepper, Canadian Federation of Labour, of Ottawa; J. S. Adamson, Ottawa Builders' Exchange; Auguste Lemieux, C. W. Bullock, and E. St. John Wileman.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The last is the most
important of the lot.


William F. Carroll: Perhaps the hon. gentleman can gather from those names the one he has in view.


John Howard Sinclair: Are they all ladies?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Did you get it from
the last-named one?


William F. Carroll: No, I did not. I have not been so fortunate as to have had the acquaintance of the lady. The minister has told us that at the Labour Congress at St. John and at a local meeting at Winnipeg, the establishment of a national labour bureau was not endorsed.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That Labour Congress was for the whole of Canada.


William F. Carroll: I understand that.
There are some of the people and institutions throughout Canada who have endorsed and still endorse the establishment of such a bureau:	Provincial Premiers;
Alberta Legislature in Committee; Ontario Cabinet; Associated Boards of Trade for Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba; Affiliated Boards of Trade for British Columbia; Union of Alberta Municipalities; Union of Saskatchewan Municipalities; Canadian Lumbermen's Association; Mountain Lumbermerehants' Association; Social Service Congress; Retail Clerks' Association; Canadian Federation of Labour; Dominion Trades and Labour Congress President; Guelph Civic Authorities; .Guelph Trades and Labour Council; Montreal Builders' Exchange; President Montreal Civic Improvement League; Associated Boards of Trade for Ontario-2 endorsements ; Ontario Provincial Builders' Exchange; Prince Rupert Board of Trade; Victoria Builders' Exchange; Vancouver Builders' Exchange; Revelstoke Trades and Labour Council and other labour bodies; Medicine Hat Builders' Exchange; Lethbridge Civic Authorities; Saskatoon Civic Authorities; Minnedosa Civic Authorities; Brandon Board of Trade; Winnipeg Builders' Exchange; Haileybury Board of Trade; Hamilton Trades and Labour Council; Moncton Board of Trade; Halifax Constructive Mechanical Trades Exchange; Calgary Board of Trade; Calgary Builders' Exchange; Toronto Board of Trade; Toronto Builders' Exchange; Ottawa Civic Authorities; Ottawa Board of Trade; Ottawa Builders' Exchange; The Sons of England; Orangemen; St. Jean Baptiste Society; St. George's Society; Y.M.C.A.; Devonian Society; Old Countrymen's Club; Overseas Club; The presidents of McGill

and Toronto Universities. Although the hon. minister's name is not on this list, he endorsed this idea on the 20th of May, 1914.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I nqyer did.


William F. Carroll: Will the minister say
that he did not give this interview which is credited to him in the Evening Journal of Wednesday, May 20, 1914?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am very glad to find that my hon. friend occasionally reads such a reliable paper as the Ottawa Evening Journal. I hope he reads it every day.


William F. Carroll: Always.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If he does, his information will be better than it sometimes is. I am not responsible, however, for what appears in the Evening Journal, and it is not at all likely that I have ever made such a definite promise. Ministers do not do such things, as those who * have had some experience know very well. We say that we will consider the matter, and if we arrive at a conclusion that in our opinion is in the best interest of the country, we do something. We do not say we will introduce a Bill next year. I do not remember the occasion at all, but I do not think I made any definite promise that this would be done. Even if I did so, conditions have changed since then. We are at present in a period of exceedingly severe depression and money is scarce. The Government has determined to introduce during this session no measures that can be avoided, that have no relation to the war. There may be some exception. Such a measure would arouse a great deal of controversy; the Government would have delegates of both shades of politics coming from various parts of Canada, and it is not considered desirable that such legislation should be introduced at this session. It would also be very expensive to inaugurate such a system. My hon. friend referred to a delegation. The particular individual to whom I . have already referred was here during the Liberal regime and interviewed the then Alinister of Labour on innumerable occasions. The same person has brought before me five delegations in regard to the matter, and she wants another interview next week. She wants special legislation to be brought down.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: The minister
might as well be in the trenches.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes. I received from several boards of trade and other organizations-I do not remember any of those to which my hon. friend has referred letters formally endorsing the whole scheme. In several cases I wrote back asking where they had got the idea that I intended to introduce legislation, and they referred me to this one source. I believe every one of those signatures which my hon. friend has read 'has been secured in that way. We all understand that if a lady, especially if she is young and charming, comes and asks us, we would sign a petition of that kind at once. I believe that the'majority of those signatures are attributable to the charming influence she exerts, and I have no doubt that she has exerted it on my hon. friend-


William F. Carroll: I have not been so fortunate.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have no doubt that the material which he has read to-day has been supplied by that individual.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You miss your guess.


William F. Carroll: I dare say that if I had had the pleasure of the acquaintance of this estimable young lady whom the minister . knows so well, and who calls on him so often, I would have made a much better presentation of the case which I am trying to lay before the committee than I have done. I am not, however, as fortunate as the Alinister of Labour in knowing the young lady. I am sorry to learn that the minister is not going to introduce this legislation this year. He says that he has no recollection of having given this interview to the Evening Journal, and he also says that the Evening Journal is a very reliable paper. As it is a very reliable paper and as this article contains almost every word regarding this bureau that the Minister of Labour has uttered here to-day, I would infer, since the minister says that he does not remember, that he must certainly have given this interview to the Evening Journal. Be that as it may, tnere is not much use in my discussing the question much further in view of the fact that it is not the intention of the Minister of Labour to introduce legislation at the present session for the establishment of a national labour bureau in Canada. Inis information will be received with deep regret by the people of this country. I hope the time will come when we shall have in this country a Minister of Labour who will take this question up with a more lively interest than* has been shown [by my hon. friend
49C

who now holds the position. I do not care whether he be a Conservative or a Liberal; I hope he will fill the need that we have had in this country for a long time.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Some of the representatives of the Trades and Labour Congress which met at St. John in September last were from my hon. friend's own town, and they voted in favour of the resolution to which I have referred.


William F. Carroll: I am willing to wager the hon. minister that there is not a member o,f the Dominion Trades and Labour Congress in the city of Sydney or in the town of Glace Bay who would not vote for the establishment of a national labour bureau in Canada.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The resolution was carried unanimously, and representatives from my hon. friend's town were there and I understood voted for the resolution, although I do not undertake to say definitely that such is the case.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I just want to suggest to the minister that either his department or the Immigration Department could do some good if they had a means of placing with the farmers men who have worked on farms. The spring is coming on and a great many men could be placed in the riding from which I come, and, I believe, in the riding from which the minister comes. There are a great many mechanics who are accustomed to farm labour.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Have you not in your town an agent appointed by the Immigration Department? -There is one at St. Thomas. [DOT]


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There may be one, but I have not heard of him.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend had better loolj him up and ask him for farm help.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Personally I have never had any difficulty in getting help. I have a number of applications for help at the present time, but there are a number of men in my section of the country who I know are willing to hire men now.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am told by my deputy that these agents last year distributed amongst the farmers 20,000 men. That is the report from the Immigration office.


William John Macdonald: In the debate on the Address I asked whether or not the fair-wage clause had been put into force dn*con-
nection with the contracts let in Canada for the supply of various articles for war purposes, and I pointed out that, as there is an English fair-wage clause similar to the one we have in Canada, it was the duty of the Department of Labour, in letting these contracts, to see that this provision was carried out. I understand that representations were made to the department from my section, where some of the shells are being made. Has a fair-wage officer gone to New Glasgow or that vicinity, or has anything been done in the way of looking into and adjusting this matter in regard to not merely to wages, but to the working hours of the men employed in some of these industries?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The same company is running a plant at Amherst, is it not?


William John Macdonald: No, a different company. You might tell us also about the company at Amherst.


Mr.   GROTKEBS@: There are about a hundred factories in Canada making bodies for shells for the British Government. Our fair-wage clause does not apply to any of these contracts.
I think the right hon. Prime Minister, in answering a question put by my hon. friend a few days ago, told him that these contracts are being let by a board appointed by the Minister of Militia, the chairman of which is Colonel Bertram, of Montreal. We received complaints from three different places to the effect that fair wages were not * being paid and that the men were obliged to work long hours. We replied at once saying that we had not the power to enforce any fair-wage clause, but that we would take the matter up with the chairman of that board, Colonel Bertram. That gentleman has taken a great interest in this matter, and has a very strong sympathy for the working people, mechanics in particular. He went to Toronto to go into the factories the men working in which were strongest in their complaints; he also went into those in the Montreal district. He said that he entirely sympathized with the complaints made by these men; that the manufacturers of these bodies were receiving fair profit and there was no reason why they should not pay the men fair wages. He said he would see to it that fair-wage clauses were put in future contracts, and that no contract would be awarded unless this grievance was at once remedied. The superintendent of one of the Toronto companies came here; I saw him, and he understood before he left that he would have to deal fairly with the men;

otherwise he would make no more shells.
I understand that he has proceeded to put things in proper shape so far as the men are concerned. I find Colonel Bertram exceedingly anxious to do everything he can to adjust matters in this respect. The complaint that came from the firm to which my hon. friend refers was handed over to Colonel Bertram. He is a very busy man, but I have no doubt he will see to it that the men in my hon. friend's constituency will get a fair deal.


William John Macdonald: I agree with what
the hon. minister says respecting Colonel Bertram; I know him personally and regard him as a very high-class man. While the situation may be remedied temporarily in some quarters, I think the minister ought in some way to assert control over his fair-wage officers in regard to these matters. I do not think that the minister, simply because Colonel Bertram says he will look into the matter, should refrain from any further attempt to have his fair-wage officers take action.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I neglected to tell my hon. friend that I sent officers to London, Toronto and Hamilton. They went into the factories, and I have full reports from them. I should be glad, however, if my hon. friend would suggest anything that I can do, apart from Col. Bertram, to remedy these grievances.


William John Macdonald: In England they have a fair-wage provision for Government contracts, just as we have in Canada. These contracts for supplies are important contracts, let through a committee appointed by the Government of Canada, so that although the money is not paid directly by the Government of Canada, it is paid through a body created for the purpose of carrying out the wishes of the Imperial Government. While it is well that Col. Bertram should undertake to look into these matters, I think the minister ought to send his fair-wage officers into localities from which complaints may come, in order to ascertain the nature of the grievances existing with respect to wages and labour. I am referring particularly to a communication which I understand was sent to the Minister of Labour from New Glasgow on behalf of a large number of men who are employed there, asking that a fair-wage officer be sent to that district. The minister has intimated that he sent men to Lon-
5 p.m. don and elsewhere, and if he has not already sent one to Nova Scotia, I would ask him to do so in order that the necessary inquiries may be made.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I may say further that we had communication on this subject with the British War Office, through Sir George Perley, and the British War Office said in substance that they did not want the men in Canada to work under anything but fair conditions. My deputy informs me that a copy of the correspondence touching that matter was sent to Col. Bertram. It is not always practicable to send a fair-wage officer unless definite complaints are received.


William John Macdonald: I understood that my hon. friend had received a letter from the labour people of that district.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, and the letter
was referred to Colonel Bertram. In many cases we sent men to districts thousands of miles distant to investigate complaints of a general character, with the result that no real grievance was found to exist. Consequently we insist upon receiving definite particulars with regard to wages, hours of labour, etc. I think we have done everything we can do in the matter. Colonel Bertram and his colleagues act, in a sense, under our authority through the Minister of Militia. I am satisfied with what he is doing, and I am glad my hon. friend knows him and corroborates what I have said in regard to his activities. I believe that he is very much in earnest about this matter, and that he will remedy conditions so far as it is possible to do so, even going to the extent of withholding further contracts if necessary.


William John Macdonald: Who is the fair-wage officer supervising these matters in the maritime provinces.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Mr. Dubreuil. My
deputy informs me that the communication received from New Glasgow referred to ^ome condition that might be brought about, not to anything at present existing.


Mr. GERMAN:: Has the minister's attention been called to a letter sent to his department in November last from the International Brotherhood of Steam Shovel and Dredge Men at Thorold, in the county of Welland? I have a copy of a letter, which is addressed to the Department of Labour, Ottawa, from this body, pointing out the minimum and maximum scale of wages paid to that class of men. The suggestion is made that something be done in the direction of fixing a definite scale of wages for these men, not only on regular days but on holidays and for overtime as well. Has anything been done?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: As my hon. friend is aware, five different contractors are working on the Welland canal. I think that during the last eight or ten months, one of our fair wage officers has been there practically half the time. I do not remember having seen the complaint my hon. friend refers to.


William Manley German: This is not really in the nature of a complaint; it is suggesting what should be done by the department.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Do you think that letter indicates that there is no schedule of wages?


William Manley German: I understand that there
is not a schedule, and they want one fixed.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The matter has not
been brought to my attention before, but I will look into it. I understand that there is a fixed schedule for all classes of labour employed on the canal.


William Manley German: If my hon. friend has not seen this letter, I will hand it to him so that he can look over it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: All right. We insist on the contractors adhering strictly to the schedules, and we have succeeded in getting large sums of money for men who have worked on the canal in different capacities. But it is a herculean task to keep track of it. I shall be very glad to look into this matter.


Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: The minister has referred to what the Government of Alberta is doing in the way of assisting the unemployed in some of the cities of that province. We can understand the cause of a good deal of the unemployment that exists; but there is a peculiar class of unemployment in a certain section of my constituency. I have taken this matter up with the minister by correspondence* and in interviews, and I wish to deal with it on the floor of the House merely to bring about if possible an effort on the part of the Government to look into this particular condition. The coal mines on the prairies of Alberta have been practically without work all this winter. I should, however, except the Galt mine in the city of Lethbridge. The Galt mine is the oldest domestic coal mine in Southern Alberta. It has an established market as far east as the city of Winnipeg, and on that account has been able to keep up a good business. But the other mines adjacent to Lethbridge have been working less than half time. East of there is the mining camp of Taber

a very extensive camp. I would say that there are eight to ten coal mines, large and small. I have satisfied myself that the mines of Taber from the beginning of 1914 up to the present time have not furnished work to the miners in that camp to the extent of a day and a half a week. That information wras given to me, and I have investigated it and found it to be corroborated by the statements of others. There must be some reason for this condition. We may have a period of depression in the country during which we may do without certain things; but there is one thing the people of western Canada cannot do without, and that is fuel. The winter in Southern Alberta this year commenced the latter part of November and has continued up to the present time, and it was not the open winter we usually have in that part of the country, but a real winter which made fuel absolutely necessary. No doubt economy has been practised; people may have used less coal than they did in other years. There has also been a development of the natural gas area and in a great many communities in Alberta natural gas has supplanted coal as a fuel. But I cannot believe that it is for these reasons that the time of the workingmen at Taber camp has been reduced on an average to a day and a half a week during the year. I have mentioned to the minister the establishment of a new and extensive camp at Drumheller, northwest of Calgary, and there is no question that it has been cutting into the business of the Southern Alberta mines in Central Saskatchewan and Central Alberta. But the condition at Taber is an economic matter to a large extent, [DOT]and I think requires an investigation. Charges have been made that some of the transportation companies are not assisting the mines at Taber, that they are operating against them, that in bringing back their empties this year the railways have filled them with a good deal of coal from the East which has come into competition with Western Canada coal. I do not know whether that is correct. But I know that in the camp at Taber the miners have been practically without work for a year, that there has been a great deal of distress and poverty, that there is no hope of employment ahead or that the situation will brighten. I think this matter is worthy of * the attention of the Department of Labour, and that an investigation should be made by some person who is acquainted with mining, and who will be impartial in his investigation. I have had in mind that it

might be possible for even the Railway Commission to look into this matter of alleged discrimination, and ascertain whether there is any truth in the charges. The prevailing opinion among the miners in that district is that the railways are discriminating against them.
I will anticipate a question that might be asked. It might be stated that the duty on coal should be increased; that American coal is supplanting our Alberta coal. I take no stock in that argument, because the duty has not been changed, except at the present session, and American coal has always had the same opportunity to come into western Canada as at present, and in past years this condition did not exist in the Taber and other western camps. Again there has been no labour trouble in the mining camps of Alberta during the past year. Things have been running smoothly between the union and the operators, due largely to the fact that there was not very much work for the men to do and it was not to their advantage to have any difficulty with the operators.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They have been quiet for three years.


William Ashbury Buchanan: The situation, nevertheless, is very severe, and I am bringing it to the attention of the House with the hope that an effort will be made by the Government to bring about a solution of the situation particularly at Taber. My opinion is that there is something economically wrong; for they had a market before, but-now for two winters conditions have been extremely bad, and there is no improvement in site. I think it is worth while for the country to investigate this charge of discrimination on the part of the railways, and if discrimination is found to exist to remove it if possible. I know that officials of the Labour Department have looked into conditions at Taber camp. 1 believe that if the minister paid a visit to Taber and saw the conditions there he would appreciate the need of some immediate actidh.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I regret very much that there has been so little work at Taber for so many months. Early in the fall I sent a fair wage officer from Vancouver to inquire into conditions there and later I wrote to my hon. friend (Mr. Buchanan) about it. He was kind enough to answer my letter and to give me all the information he had at his disposal. I have talked the matter over with him since the beginning of the session. Neither he nor I so far have been
able to devise any means for relieving the situation there. He mentioned that perhaps the principal cause of the difficulty at Taber was the opening of another mine at Drum-heller where they can get coal and supply the wants of many people in the province with a shorter haul than if they were to take it from Taber. I do not know that any one is to blame for that. I suppose that if a man buying coal finds he can get it at Drum-heller cheaper than he can at Taber he will get it at Drumheller and that will lessen the work for the miners at Taber. I am told that the coal produced at Taber is not of as good quality as that produced in some other parts of the province and that is given as a reason why coal is imported and brought from Other places. I understand that the Canadian Pacific railway is interested in the mines at Lethbridge, which my hon. friend has referred to, and that the miners are very busy there. The miners at Taber wrote me asking me to make a personal visit to Taber and my hon. friend desired me to do that too. Taber is in his constituency and if he will give me the assurance from his experience of the people there that if I go everything will be all right, I will make an extra effort to go.


William John Macdonald: Do you think you
can do that?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend (Mr. Buchanan) succeeds with the people at Taber and suggests that I should go. I do not claim to know anything about mining, but I will speak to the Chairman of the Board of Railway Commissioners and also to my colleagues and see if it would be possible to have the matter investigated by the Board. I cannot understand what good I could do these people by going out there personally, although they insist on my going.


William Ashbury Buchanan: They would like to see you.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: If that would please them and settle the difficulty I would be delighted to go, but I do not see wherein I could do very much more for them personally. It may be that an investigation will be held.


William Ashbury Buchanan: This is what is called domestic coal. With regard to the steam coal mines in the Crowsnest pass, there might be some reason for the slackness of work on account of the fact that the railways are not operating as they formerly were and some other industries are closed down and

therefore are not using as much coal. Domestic coal ought to be in general use from year to year.


Mr. WEIGHT:: I know that in certain sections of the West they much prefer Galt coal, and that they do not buy Taber coal if they can get the other. They are willing to pay as much as fifty cents extra for the Galt coal in preference to the Taber coal. I presume it is fairly good coal, but the Galt coal is preferred.


William John Macdonald: With regard to the question of coal in the west, coming as I do from a coal section in the East, the information I have about, the situation there -and the figures verify it-is that during the last two or three years there has been a tremendous displacement of coal in the western field, more in British Columbia than in Alberta, by reason of the fact that the \ise of fuel oil on locomotives on the different railways there has greatly increased. This would have its resultant effect upon domestic coal. I fancy the characteristics of the two kinds of coal are not defined in such a marked way that parties who produce coal, which they sold to the railways, would not, when they were driven from the railway supply; naturally seek a market in a great many places where the people who had been purchasing domestic coal, such as Taber coal, which people would be looked upon as affording a natural market for this domestic coal. There have been complaints coming from those who have gone from the East to the West as to the conditions which exist in a business way there, which conditions, of course, affect labour and these conditions are no doubt largely due to the tremendous importation of fuel oil displacing coal in the business of the country. I mention this as being one of the causes which the minister will have to consider in regard to the request made by my hon. friend from Medicine Hat (Mr. Buchanan), because I have no doubt that he has had the same problem submitted to him from the coal people on the other side of the mountain.


William F. Carroll: How many labour disputes have been settled through the intervention of the minister's department during the past year?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: At the time of the outbreak of the war I publicly requested all employers and employees to avoid as far as possible any labour disturbances pointing out that we required our united strength

to fight the enemy and that it would be unwise to dissipate that in any way by disputes between employers and employees. There were two or three disputes at that time approaching the appointment of a board of conciliation, but I was very much pleased to find that employers and employees got together and settled their trouble as I had suggested. We have not had a board of conciliation since although I think there are three at Edmonton in process of formation now. They are not large questions and I am in hopes that they will be able to settle them so that they may not require a board at all. Apart from that there have been about eighteen boards of conciliation during the past year. We have not had any serious trouble with any matter that has been dealt with under the Industrial Disputes Act.


William F. Carroll: Were the 17 or 18 boards that were appointed successful in bringing disputes to a satisfactory termination?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think they succeeded.
I think both parties, with one or two slight exceptions, accepted the awards made by the board.


William F. Carroll: The Act appears to be working pretty well for both parties concerned. Is it the intention of the minister to bring in any amendment, or has he been asked by any parties or organizations, to prepare a Bill in amendment of the existin'* Act?	6


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, I have been asked, and I have prepared a Bill, but it would be unwise to bring it up at this time. Some suggestions I have to make would not meet the wishes of all classes of working people, and as there would be a controversy no doubt I have determined not to bring that legislation in this year. Speaking generally, I want to testify to the fairly satisfactory working of the Industrial Disputes Act, so far as my experience goes. As no doubt my hon. friend (Mr. Carroll) knows, his native province is entitled to the credit for the main features of the Industrial Disputes Act. Credit is sometimes given to other places, but it was the legislature of Nova Scotia that, in the year 1890, adopted the chief features of that legislation. I think the Industrial Disputes Act operates fairly well.
I desire to make some improvements to it and then I believe it will be as satisfactory as any similar legislation in any part of the world.


William F. Carroll: Has the commission on the high cost of living made a report?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They promised me a couple of weeks ago that their report would be ready before the end of the month. I think it is about ready now, and I think my hon. friend and other hon. gentlemen will find it a very able report and a very satisfactory one, especially the work in connection with it which was done in my department, and of which I am very proud.


William John Macdonald: The question of
technical education is, of course, a very large one, and in our province, in which we have a very large industrial population developing our various resources, there is a very satisfactory technical school, which has been started by the Provincial Government. The results so far produced by that school have been of such beneficial character that we all have become greatly interested in the subject and we look forward to the extension of technical schools with a good deal of hope. There are four or five constituencies in Nova Scotia which seem to have led the way, so far as the country east of Quebec is concerned, in industrial development. Nova Scotia was the scene of the inception of the iron and steel industries of the Dominion, the initiation and progress of which have been due entirely to latent Nova Scotian talent. The Nova Scotia Government has established a technical school under the direction of Professor Sexton.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: One of the best in
Canada.


William John Macdonald: One of the best in
Canada, and the beneficial results obtained from that school have attracted the attention of our people. One does not need to elaborate upon the desirability of extending the operation of the technical schools system among the working people of Canada. The report of the Commission on Technical Education has been before the minister for some time, and I would like to have him make a frank statement as to what his views in regard to that question are, and what his idea is at to what can be done in the future.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: When the Commission on Technical Education was appointed, the question of jurisdiction as between the Dominion and the provinces was raised, and so that there might be no misunderstanding the Prime Ministers of the various provinces were told that the object of this commission would be only to collect information and report that information to the various provincial governments. They were asked whether they in any way objected to
the appointment of such commission. The Prime Ministers of all the provinces replied, saying that they had no objection, but Prime Ministers of Quebec and Ontario drew special attention to the fact that under the British North America Act education was within the purview of the provinces. The report was completed in February last, and on the 12th of March it was sent to the Prime Minister of each province with the accompanying letter:
Ottawa, March 12, 1914.
My Dear Sir,-You will, perhaps, recall communications exchanged in December, 1909, between my predecessor as Minister of Labour and yourself, with reference to the advisability of the appointment by the Dominion Government of a Royal Commission " to inquire into the needs and present equipment of the Dominion as respects industrial training and technical education," etc., my predecessor going on to remark, " It is intended that the commission shall be solely for the purpose of gathering information, the information, when obtained, to be published in a suitable report to be at the disposal of the provinces and available for general distribution." Letters were similarly exchanged on this subject with the Prime Ministers of the other provinces of Canada. None of the replies received objected to the appointment of the commission, and several contained expressions of cordial approval of the proposed course of action.
The Dominion Government appointed a Royal Commission in June, 1910, and the commission in clue course reported. I deemed it well, before bringing the report formally ta your attention, to await receipt of the concluding section (Part IV), in view particularly of the fact that this part contains a report of the inquiry of the commission in Canada itself. Copies of this part having been received, the four volumes comprising the report are now sent you, and I should be pleased to receive, as soon as may be possible, an expression of your views as to the general nature of the report, and especially concerning the recommendations contained therein. Any suggestion you may be pleased to make will be submitted to my colleagues, and will receive, you may rest assured, careful consideration.
The earlier volumes of the report have been already forwarded to each member of your Government and to many of your leading officers.
Yours faithfully,
JJ\ W. Crothers.
I received a reply from all of the prime ministers, acknowledging the receipt of this report, but there was no indication that the Provincial Governments would take the matter up seriously, nor did they make any suggestions as to whether they were in favour of the report of the commission or not. The communication from Premier Murray, of Nova Scotia, was an exception, in that as he takes a special interest in the subject, he did go more fully into the question than did the others. The question


William John Macdonald: My hon. friend has not indicated what his aspirations are in regard to this matter, but has confined himself to the simple statement that on account of the financial condition of the country he is unable to propose anything at all.
Mr. CROTHERcS: My hon. friend will remember that I did not confine myself to that one point.


William John Macdonald: Beyond showing a pious sympathy, my hon. friend intimated that, as there was no money at hand to spend, he would not say what should be done. My hon. friend ought to take the initiative. I have no doubt the Premier of Nova Scotia has suggested to him that he should follow the line adopted by the hon. Minister of Agriculture in connection with the special vote made for the purpose of assisting agriculture in this country. When I say that I do not know what the Hon. Mr. Murray has said, I am only supposing that he may have suggested this course to the Minister of Labour. Where in any province of the Dominion there is a well-established technical school, it would <b' desirable to

supplement and extend its operations by assistance from the federal treasury along the same lines as assistance was granted to agriculture. The minister should not wait for the provincial ministers to tell him what he should do on this question. That is where I find fault with him. We admit that the financial condition of the country to-day is such that the Minister of Finance has to be very cautious when his brother ministers come to him with proposals involving inroads upon the treasury. We all know that he is bound to exercise the strictest economy in every quarter in order to maintain the financial status of Canada. He would be liable to criticism if he failed to take that position. I am sure that we on this side of the House will support him in that wise and cautious policy, if he follows it, endeavouring to keep things on an even keel. But assuming that he does so and that our business is to continue this war until it is brought to a successful conclusion, that ought not to prevent the Minister of Labour from having upon this question some policy, some views, which he may desire to carry into effect when the smoke of battle has cleared away and the Empire is sailing upon a level sea and Canada is following her usual course. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour apparently has no views on this question at all. Because the premiers of the different provinces have not suggested to him what he should do, he does not do anything and does not even propose to think about the matter. I entreat my hon. friend to get into a different frame of mind upon this question. Not only do we want to see this country great agriculturally, but where we have the facilities and the natural resources we want to see it great industrially. We cannot see it great industrially, unless we lay the foundation for that condition by a system of technical education. One of the things that has made Germany such a wonderful nation as she is in the way of providing modern devices relating to war, has been her system of technical education, which she has pursued with the greatest care for the last 20 or 25 years. In this new country of ours, where we are but laying the foundations, we should, at the earliest possible date, not merely provincially but federally, deal with this problem, so that we may lay a permanent basis of conditions upon which Canada may build an industrial structure which will give her a foremost place among the new nations of

the world. I beseech my hon. friend to adopt some policy upon this question; for apparently he has not any policy. I would like to know what he would do if he had the money. If he will frame a policy I am sure the people of Canada will supply the necessary money when the skies are clear.


William F. Carroll: This matter of technical education is very important in the province of Nova Scotia. Has there been under the advisement of the Department of Labour or of the Government any scheme whereby the provinces might be assisted in the matter of technical education along the lines of the report of the commission appointed for that purpose?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The matter has been
under consideration along the lines suggested by the members of the commission as well as along some other lines. Some of the provinces do not agree at all with the suggestions made by the commissioners. The report comprises four large volumes, which were sent out only last March. It would take a man a long time to read them, and a longer time to consider them. It is the intention of the Government, when the skies are clear, as my hon. friend the member for Pictou says, if we can make saisfactory arrangements with the provinces, to render material assistance in respect to technical education.
Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of the Labour Gazette, and allowance to correspondents and for clerical assistance in preparing tables on statistics, $35,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is the situation in regard to the British Columbia labour question?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: A short time ago I
asked my fair wage officer at Vancouver to go over to Vancouver Island and give me a detailed report as to conditions of mines there, and he did so, giving the number of white people and the number of Orientals working in each mine. What my hon. friend no doubt refers to particularly is the labour trouble which has existed on Vancouver Island for a long time. The strike was called off some months ago and a great many of the men have returned to work, and some of them have moved out, but everything is quiet there now.


William F. Carroll: A recent issue of the
Labour Gazette reported that the United Mine Workers paid out a million and a half dollars of their funds in conducting that strike. Is that correct?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I understand that that is about the amount they paid out.


William F. Carroll: An article in a recent
issue of the Labour Gazette, dealing with coal mining and, I think, not contributed by the regular correspondent, contained a statement which would lead people to believe that Sydney is a coal mining city. There is not a coal mining town within ten miles of the city of Sydney. The town of Glace Bay is the centre of the coal mining operations, and Sydney is the centre of the steel industry. The matter was brought to my attention by a gentleman who thinks that the article is unfair to the city of Sydney; I merely call the minister's attention to it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The correspondent of
the Labour Gazette in that district, Mr. John Moffat, is one of the best men we have in Canada.


William F. Carroll: This article was not contributed by the correspondent.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It was not contributed by Mr. Moffatt, but I fancy the editor based his article on information obtained from him. However, I shall look into the matter and see that it is remedied.


William John Macdonald: The correspondent in my county, Mr. Mackenzie, has gone to the war. Who is performing his duties during his absence?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We have had several cases of that kind. During the absence of the correspondent we pay him his salary, and pay a man to take his place, on the understanding that wnen the regular correspondent returns, he will resume his position.


William John Macdonald: Who is substituting in this case?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not remember the name; I will let my hon. friend know.


William John Macdonald: As my hon. friend
is aware, the coal situation in Eastern Canada is in a very bad way. Has the hon. member had any representations from' that section of the country with reference to slackness of work or other difficulties of a like nature?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think we have had no complaints of that kind from the eastern provinces.
Industrial Disputes Investigation - Act, $20,000.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We reduced that vote by $5,000, as we did not expect as many



boards of conciliation this year as we had last year.
Mr- COPP: Has the minister received a resolution passed by the Moncton Trades and Labour Council with regard, to the payment of wages bi-monthly instead of monthly?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think I did receive a communication of that kind.


Mr. COPP:: Has the minister received a action in the matter?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: This matter would
more properly come within the scope of the Department of Railways. It has been proposed that there should be an amendment to the Railways Act requiring all railway companies to pay wages twice instead of once a month. I myself suggested an amendment of that kind last year; when the Railway Act is revised I have no doubt that that matter will be discussed.


Arthur Bliss Copp: It seems to me that this is a matter which concerns more particularly the Trades and Labour Council of the city of Moncton than the different Railway unions. By these resolutions they have sought the good offices of the Minister of Labour; they believe that he is a friend of labour, I suppose, and hope that he will work out these matters in their interest. I should like to iknow from the minister whether he has taken any action in the matter, so that I may be in a position to advise those who have communicated with me in that regard.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I acknowledged receipt of the communication and promised, I think, to give the matter my favourable consideration and to consult the Minister of Railways about it. I have spoken -to the Minister of Railways; I do not know what will be done.


Arthur Bliss Copp: With regard to boards of arbitration and conciliation under the Industrial Disputes Act, I have received a long resolution, passed by System Federation No. 11 of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railways, complaining that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway officials will not recognize the decision of the arbitration board in regard to difficulties between the railway , and the employees.
I will read the resolution; it is as follows:
Whereas the workers are from time to time urged and are expected to live up to the spirit of conciliation and arbitration and award ot the board appointed under the Industrial Disputes Act;

And whereas we expect as workers that in accepting that spirit of the law, the employers should accept it in the same spirit, and when agreeing to the creation of such a board, they should accept such a decision;
And whereas the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, in view of certain considerations guaranteed by the Dominion Government, agreed to accept and be bound by an award of a board appointed to consider the condition of workers ( on that road;
And whereas up to the present time the management of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway have refused to put into operation the award of the said board, and such refusal being a serious violation of the spirit and intent of the Industrial Disputes Act:
And whereas many millions of the public money have been spent by the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, and as said company has frequently received valuable concessions from the Dominion Government, and therefore they should be compelled to respect the Industrial Disputes Act:
Therefore, be it resolved that this System Federation of the Canadian Government railways co-operate with the workers on other railroads in Canada and the Trades and Dabour Congress in entering our protest against the Dominion Government granting any more ac-sistance to the said railroad until such a time as they live up to the award of the late Board of Arbitration dealing with the conditions of the employees on said road.
Has the minister taken any action in this matter?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I fancy this refers to the Board of Conciliation which dealt with a dispute between the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company and their machinists at Winnipeg. A board was appointed in connection with this matter before I took charge of the Department of Labour, and an award was made. The Industrial Disputes Act provides that there shall be a board of investigation before there is a strike or lockout, and once the board has sat, heard evidence and made an award, any party to the dispute is at liberty to strike or to lockout, as they may see fit; there is no law against it. In the case to which, no doubt, they have reference, the machinists went on strike before the board sat; that was prior to October, 1911. An award was afterwards made and the company refused to carry that award out. An arrangement was made about a year and a half afterwards between the men and the company whereby the men were to go back and receive certain wages. Most of them went back to work at Trans-cona, near Winnipeg. The men contended that the company had not, as agreed, asked for a board, so they themselves asked for one. That was in the fall of 1913. Another board was appointed and another award made in favour of the men, which the company refused to recognize, contending that

the men had agreed that when they returned to work they would not ask for a board unless a majority of the employees in certain crafts were dissatisfied. The question at once arose whether there was a majority dissatisfied or a majority satisfied. The company said the majority of the men were satisfied; the men said that the majority were dissatisfied. The award of the board, however, was in favour of the men, and the company steadfastly refused to carry it out. The men have since continued to work.
At six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Private Bills, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Bill No. 9, respecting the Essex Terminal Railway Company-Mr. Wilcox-in committee.
On section 1-annual meeting:
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why has this section
been changed?


Mr. LANCASTER:: By the original chapter of this company the annual meeting of the shareholders was to be held on the first Monday of September which is Labour [DOT] Day, a holiday. This simply alters the date to the third Tuesday in September.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-extension of time for completion :
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Have they started the
road yet?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: It is partly under
construction, I believe. The road runs from Walkerville through Sandwich East and Sandwich West to Windsor, through the town and townships of Sandwich and Anderdon. We are adding what are called the three standard sections for the safeguarding of water-powers and for the protection of municipalities. The first clause is to prevent water-powers being acquired by expropriation, and the other two are for the protection of municipalities as to poles on highways or building on highways without the consent of the municipality.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
32*
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 13, respecting the Montreal and Southern Counties Railway Company-Mr. Bickerdike-in committee.
On section 1-extension of time for completion :
Edward Arthur Lancaster: This company has
water-powers, and we have incorporated a section in this Bill to subject those water-powers to what is known as our standard policy in that regard. The other two sections prevent the construction of poles on highways and the building on highways without the consent of the municipality.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 21, respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company-Mr. Blain-in committee.
On section 2-extension of time for the construction of certain authorized lines:
William John Macdonald: Are these the lines that were referred to in the legislation of last year which provided for security being taken or are they entirely other lines on which no work has been done?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I understand that no work has been done on these lines yet. The amendments are to strike out the words " or near " in various places, so as to make it definite where the railways are to go.


William John Macdonald: Nothing here would affect the legislation of last year?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I should think not.
Bill reported read the third time, and passed.
Bill No. 24, respecting the Ottawa and New York Railway Company-Mr. Fripp- in committee.
On section 1-lease of railway authorized:


Edward Arthur Lancaster: The committee probably would like to know why we amended this Bill. The Railway Committee thought it was not well to pass that section without limiting the power to lease to a certain length of time and they therefore required the company to make the lease for not more than ten years at a time. They also thought it was not well to enact that they

could renew the lease from time to time; therefore, the Committee has amended the Bill so as to compel them to coine forward every time they desire to renew the lease and ask for a special sanction as a safeguard to the public interest.


William John Macdonald: The effect of the
legislation is to divest a Canadian company of control over the railway and to put the railway under the control of an American company.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: To a certain extent. It is like the Michigan Central and Canada Southern.


William John Macdonald: To what extent has the committee reserved control over the New York Central operating this railway in Canada under our statutes. Does the chairman think that our laws are fully operative as against a foreign corporation?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Yes, under the Railway Aot the operating company is under the control of the railway commission. The New York Central becomes the operating company. We were careful to see that they could only operate for ten years at a time without getting a new arrangement and we refused to give them the latter part of their section which provided that they could renew from time to time.


William John Macdonald: Were the terms of the lease submitted to the committee?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: No, I have not seen the lease; I do not know whether the department have. The gentleman who appeared in support of the Bill before the committee, Mr. Scott of this city, said that the lease had not actually been executed yet and that they could not get it executed until they got this sanction.


William John Macdonald: Did the wisdom of providing that the terms of the lease shall be subect to the approval of the Railway Commission occur to the chairman?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Yes, we say that this is to be subject to the provisions of sections 361, 362 and 363 of the Railway Act, which are very wide and all-embracing in regard to the protection that the hon. gentleman has in mind. They must take it before the Railway Commission. ,
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
The following Bills were also considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed, without discussion:
I Mr. Lancaster.]
Bill No. 4, respecting the Alberta Central Railway Company.-Mr. Michael Clark.
Bill No. 5, respecting the Athabasca, and Grande Prairie Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 6, respecting the Brantford and Hamilton Electric Railway Company.-Mr. Barker.
Bill No. 7, respecting the British Columbia and White River Railway Company.- Mr. Clements.
Bill No. 23, respecting the James Bay and Eastern Railway Company.-Mr. Girard.
Bill No. 25, respecting the South Ontario Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Wm. Smith.
Bill No. 26, respecting the Southern Central Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 22, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway, Ontario.-Mr. Guilbault.
Bill No. 10, respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Macdonald.


SECOND READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 48, to incorporate Austral Insurance Company.-Mr. Bickerdike.
Bill No. 49, respecting the Calgary and Fernie Railway Company.-Sir James Aikins.
Bill No. 50, respecting the Canadian Western Railway Company.-Sir James Aikins.
Bill No. 51, respecting the Kettle Valley Railway Company, and to ratify and confirm an agreement with the Vancouver, Victoria jind Eastern Railway and Navigation Company.-Mr. Green.
Bill No. 52, respecting the Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal Company. -Mr. G. V. White.
Bill No. 53, to incorporate the Marcil Trust Company.-Mr. Marcil.
Bill No. 54, respecting the Toronto Terminals Railway Company.-Mr. Mac-donell.
Bill No. 55, to incorporate Vancouver Terminal Railway Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 58, respecting the Casualty Company of Canada.-Mr. Macdonell.
Bill No. 59, respecting the Empire Life Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Macdonell.
Bill No. 60, to incorporate Entwhistle and Alberta Southern Railway Company.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 61, respecting the Simcoe, Grey and Bruce Railway Company.-Mr. Middlebro.

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
Labour-Industrial Disputes Investigation , Act, $20,000.
Mr. M. MARTIN (Montreal, St. Mary's) (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to take up much of the time of the Committee but it seems to me that in my capacity of mayor of Montreal, it is incumbent on me to criticise the Government and specially the honourable Minister of Labour for neglecting to provide in the estimates an item of a few million dollars towards assisting the unemployed in the great industrial centres.
Of course, we were called upon to vote $150,000,000 to be spent in Great Britain for war purposes; but no provision whatever was made towards helping the workingman in the manufacturing centres of the Dominion. We have reached such a stage of misery that unless the Government realize what is going on and try to remedy matters, large numbers of our fellow-people are bound to starve.
In Montreal there are 45,000 of our people unemployed. The same state of things exists in all large cities of Ontario, and particularly Toronto. I deeply regret that this Government, and specially the Minister of Labour, should have overlooked the desirability of taking a vote towards helping out the destitute during this period of stress.
This morning, more than 800 unemployed called at my office at the City Hall; they included men in all class of society, accountants and clerks as well as laborers; for all our factories have closed down.
Therefore, I say that this Government should have been content with asking for a somewhat smaller amount to be forwarded to Great Britain. We are bound to borrow $150,000,000, that will be handed over to England; that money will not even cross the Atlantic, though we will have to pay interest on the loan and make good for it later on. We are willing to send men over there, but we should not send money, and I regret that no provision has been made for the destitute in this country, while millions are being sent to England.
Unless the Government make haste to assist our destitute, wa shall presently be threatened with a revolution. I say then that we should at once provide in the Estimates, either of the Public Works or of the Labour Department, an amount
sufficient to give work to our unemployed. Why not start forthwith the building of the Georgian Bay Canal? Why not carry out immediately the great work of improvement of the Montreal Harbour?
Times are hard, but the worst is yet to come.
The Minister of Labour need not laugh. It is a time to cry, not to laugh. It is very funny to see the Minister of Labour laughing when we are discussing questions of importance.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: You did not see him laughing at all. You are making that up.


William Melville Martin: You were laughing. It is not a time to laugh.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I was not laughing.


William Melville Martin: I know you always laugh when you see citizens without bread in their house; but you will see, when the next election comes, that the shame will be on you.
* (Translation) Mr. Chairman, I say that the Minister of Labour has been remiss in his duty in neglecting to provide in his Estimates an amount sufficient to assist urban municipalities. Rural municipalities, whose inhabitants undergo no hardship and are in a position to sell their produce at a large profit, need no help on our part. In cities, however, conditions are vastly different from those existing in the country, workingmen cannot find employment and charitable associations, among them St. Vincent de - Paul find themselves unable to Gope with the numerous demands made upon resources.
The city of Montreal has provided $75,000 to supply bread and soup to these unfortunate people. In my view, municipalities are not alone responsible for the maintenance of these dependents. I think the Minister of Labour should pay a visit to the poorer sections of our city, that might induce him to alter his views.


Mr. PAQUET (Translation):: They should change the mayor.


William Melville Martin: I think
rather we should change the government. At all events, I challenge the honourable member for l'Islet (Mr. Paquet) to try and have the people of Montreal change their mayor.
Labour-Combines Investigation Act, $5,000.


William John Macdonald: Has there been an expenditure under this head during the past year?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No.


William John Macdonald: The minister is asking for $500 less than last year?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes.
Labour-Industrial Training and Technical Education, $2,500.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What part does the department take in industrial training and technical education? What is this money for?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend will recollect that the Commission of Technical Education was launched from the Labour Department. Its report was completed only last February. Had my hon. friend been in his place before six o'clock he would have heard a letter read that I sent to the Prime Ministers of the various provinces with this report requesting that they should give expression to their views as to its contents and recommendations. We may have inquiries made, or may have inquiries to make, and we put in this small sum to meet any expenses that may arise in connection with this matter.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You have not taken any action on the Commission's report?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The commission was appointed only to collect information and submit it to the various provinces, and this we have done. It does not follow that we are not to do any more. As my hon. friend knows, the subject of education is, according to the British North America Act, entirely within the jurisdiction of the provinces. Unless some arrangement can be made with the provinces such as was made by the Minister of Agriculture in the matter of assisting agriculture, there will be nothing done. The commission recommended, as my hon. friend knows, that we should supply the provinces with $3,500,000 a year. But we thought that other matters were more immediately pressing and made a first demand upon the treasury and that we were not justified in making such an expenditure now.
Labour-Inspection of railway construction, etc., $10,000.


William F. Carroll: How is this money to be expended?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Up to a few years ago the Labour Department did not undertake to uo any work of this kind; but complaints came to us from the construction camps on the Grand Trunk Pacific and other railways 
that sanitary and hospital provisions were not being carefully looked after. We undertook an inspection. One of the fair-wage officers of my department made two trips from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. On the first trip, he found things in a horrible condition. By reason of his inspection and the action he took on it the principal complaints were remedied within two or three weeks after his report was made. He has been over that whole line a second time. We have inspected the construction camps on the other railways of Canada, and we expect to expend this sum, or a portion of it in the same way. We cannot know in advance how much we shall be required to spend. That will depend on the complaints that come in.


William John Macdonald: Who are the people employed in this work?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: 
Edward Walter Nesbitt: I understand that the
fair-wage officers are employed to go round the various public works to see that fair wages are being paid.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is part of their
work. The principal work they did originally was to fix fair wages, according to thj current rates being paid in the district, on ally public work that might be going on. If a public building, for instance, is to be put up by the Public Works Department, they send a request for us to make a schedule giving minimum rates of wages that should be paid to the various trades, such as stone-cutters, bricklayers, carpenters and plumbers, that are to be engaged in the construction. One of the fair-wage officers goes to the district where the work is to be carried on and ascertains what the current rate of wages is and what are the hours of labour for similar work in that district. He then makes a report. Those who are to tender on the job see exactly' what they will have to pay the different craftsmen in the execution of their work. These officers do not go about inspecting these works unless complaint is made. But if complaint is made, for instance, against a contractor on the Welland canal or the contractors for public buildings, that they are not paying the wages, the fair-wage officer is sent to inquire into the circumstances and report, and we here try to see to it that the contractor pays what he should pay under the schedules contained

in the contract. These officers are sent out when a labour dispute arises even between two individuals. They are looking into the wages paid in the manufacture of shells now being supplied to the British Government. Anything of the nature of a dispute between employer and employed of either a private or a public character is investigated by one of these fair-wage officers.


William John Macdonald: What is the total
amount of the minister's estimates as compared with last year's?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There are total reductions of about $12,800. The amount of money spent in the Labour De-
9 p.m. partment last year was nearly $9,000 less than was expended in 1910-11, the last year of our predecessors.


William John Macdonald: And the hon. minister proposes still further to economize?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I propose to cut it down quite a bit within the present year.


William John Macdonald: It is good to find one minister economizing.
Civil Government-Department of Inland
Revenue-salaries, $142,812.50.


William John Macdonald: There is an increase of $13,175. Why the increase?


Mr. BLONDIN:: It is due mostly to statutory increases. But there are some new appointments. If hon. members will turn to the details of this estimate at page 18, they will be able to follow my explanation. There is one more officer in the first division, subdivision A. This is due to the appointment of >a translator. There is 'provision for a translator in the Department, but such an officer was not appointed before. Then, there is a new appointment in the second division, subdivision A. This is for the appointment of an analyst required for new laboratories opened in Winnipeg, Vancouver and Halifax. In the Electrical Branch there are to be two employees instead of one. This is to provide for the appointment of an assistant to the Chief Electrical Engineer in Ottawa. In the Weights and Measures Branch, in the lower grade, there are to be two instead of one. This is to provide for an assistant to the chief in Ottawa.


William John Macdonald: There is another increase-second division, subdivision A.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I was mistaken. This
change in the second division, subdivision A, is to provide for an assistant to the chief. There is a small increase in contingencies
also. That is due to an increase in business.


William John Macdonald: Why is an assistant to be appointed to the chief of the Weights and Measures Branch?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Both these appointments as assistants to the chiefs of these branches are made that there may be some one to take the place of the chief of the branch when he is absent.


William John Macdonald: Has that need been recognized under the hon. minister's predecessors?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I could not say. I rely only on the necessity for the appointment.
I understand that this is a long-felt want in the department, and I feel we badly need these appointments.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We have just learned from the Minister of Laoour (Mr. Crothers) that he is doing without many things, even to technical training, on account of the stringency of the times. Does not the lion. Minister of Inland Revenue think that by a little effort he could have done without these new appointees? He ought to employ men who do not get sick. No doubt there are a lot of men who could run the branch even if the chief is away for a day or two.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I understand this man is sick, and we have to get some one else.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Who is he?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Mr. Way. Hon. gentlemen must not forget that this is a depart. ment of collection, and I believe it is good economy to have a proper organization to collect the money and manage the department.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the Weights and Measures branch collect as much money as it pays out?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: No. That is a branch more for the protection of the public.


William John Macdonald: Is it for the same reason you are putting in an assistant in the Electrical branch?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Have both these men taken ill at the same time?
- Mr. BLONDIN:	The chief electrical
engineer is not ill, but his duties often call him away from the office here, and we need somebody to take his place when he is away.


William John Macdonald: The Minister of
Labour, whose estimates we have just finished, congratulated himself on the fact that he was going to administer his department at a saving of something like $12,800. My ho-n. friend (Mr. Blondin) has just assumed control of his department, and he proposes to start out with an increased expenditure. I do not know where he will land in a year or two, if the fates permit him to retain his office.	[DOT]
For what the Minister of Finance thinks will be a bad year my hon. friend is certainly starting off at a pretty fast clip, and I think he should explain why he is running into this unnecessary expenditure. These officials who have occupied their positions for a number of years under different ministers have never asked for assistants before, and I think my hon. friend is starting at the wrong end in appointing new assistants now. The. Minister of Finance has intimated to the Minister of Labour that, although technical education and the interests of labour throughout the country are very important, he must practise economy in his department owing to the present condition; and yet the Minister of Finance permits my hon friend to appoint half a dozen extra assistants to sit in the office when the head man is a little unwell or. wants to go out for a while. I am afraid the Minister of Finance is disposed to be too generous with his new colleague from Quebec. If these new assistants are really needed, I do not see why the gentleman who is now gracefully occupying the position of Railway Commissioner was allowed by the Minister of Finance to struggle along without this extra help. What a state of mind that gentleman must have been in when on going to his office in the morning he found that the chief of the electrical branch, we will say, was not feeling very well, but could not get away because there was no one to relieve him. In these times, when one looks at his purse twice before spending money, I think the Minister of Finance should admonish his new colleague to practise economy, and warn him against increasing his expenditures in this spendthrift fashion.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: We are making only two new appointments.


William John Macdonald: Six.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Not as assistants to the chief. My officers inform me these men have been badly needed for a long time.


William John Macdonald: Mr. Nantel got along without them.


Charles Marcil: Has the translator mentioned here been appointed P


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Not yet.


Charles Marcil: I was amazed when a messenger brought into my office this morning copies of the Auditor General's Report. There were three volumes in English for 1914, but only one volume in French, and that was for 1913. As the minister is asking for a translator, I think he might explain why only one volume for 1913 is out.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: That would concern the general staff of blue-book translators. I regret I have not with me Mr. Desaulniers' report, but if I remember rightly the translating staff lost four of its members by death last year, and their places were not filled for months and months. When these new men have had a little experience, things will get in better shape, and no doubt they will catch up with the work. When Mr. Desaulniers took charge of the translating staff, there was a great deal of work on hand to be done, and that accounts for the delay in getting out the French reports.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister have the translation done in his own department?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: In the past the translation has been done outside, but it is our intention to have a translator in the department to translate purely departmental affairs. The blue-books of course are translated by the blue-book translation staff.


Charles Marcil: The practice of the departments varies. I understand that there is a translator in the Department of Agriculture, in the Post Office Department, and in the Department of Trade and Commerce. Only last week we appointed four translators for what is called the House branch. Personally, I think the proper w'ay is to have the translation done in the department. From what I have said about the Auditor General's Report the House will see under what a serious disadvantage the French population labours. Only one volume of the Auditor General's Report for 1913 has yet appeared in French, and yet we have translators for Hansard, translators for the Law Branch, translators for the House, and translators in the various departments. At present we have on the pay-list about 50 translators, whose salaries range from $1,500 to $2,000. We probably spend about $100,000 on translation alone. My hon. friend will

see how useless it would be to send out one volume of the Auditor General's Report for 1913 in French, when he could send the whole report for 1914 in English. I think the minister is taking the proper step in appointing a translator to his own department. I must congratulate the Postmaster General upon the fact that the French report of his department was out ten days after the English report was published. There is some sense in that. The Marine Department, although short in one section, if I remember correctly, was only a few months behind with its French report. I do not know who is to blame for the delay in translating the Auditor General's Report. The correspondence at the beginning is the only thing that would have to be translated, for the rest is made up of names and figures. But certainly there has been omission somewhere. Can the minister tell us whether each department is to have a translator hereafter? That system has this advantage :	Translators in the department
could go ahead with the manuscript, whereas when the translators are clubbed together they have to wait for the whole bound volume before they can start work, and they are bound to be behind time.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I do not think it was
the intention of the Government when they appointed translators to have one in each department translating blue-books. I understand that that is the work of the blue-book translation staff. This question of translators is a most interesting one, and I hope we shall have an opportunity of discussing it more fully later on, when I shall have on hand a report of the work done in the last two years.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: My hon. friend said just now that he was increasing his clerical staff because the duties were heavier, but if my memory serves me right the Minister of Finance told us that on the eight or nine months previous to the Budget speech the Inland Revenue Department was $200,000 behind the previous year. If that is so, where does the extra work come in?


William Thomas White: I think my hon.
friend will find that the Inland Revenue returns will increase, and are increasing.


William John Macdonald: From weights and
measures or whisky? It is not in the weights and measures that he wants the extra men; it is at the whisky end of the department.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The Department of
Weights and Measures has to be completely reorganized.


William John Macdonald: Why?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Because it is not giving the satisfaction that the public has a right to expect.


William John Macdonald: We have heard nothing of this.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I am a new minister in the department and I have to' rely upon the reports of my officers.


William John Macdonald: I have been looking through the book to find one or two things. Take the Minister of Militia and Defence; he is very much in the limelight, has been for some months and probably will be for some time longer unless something happens-One cannot tell what may happen. That hon. gentleman, with all the responsibilities that have been put upon him and his department, actually comes before Parliament and says that he is prepared to run his department for $5,000 less than last year. The Minister of Railways and Canals has a very important department with vast interests to preside over. The Finance Minister is optimistic in regard to the amount of whisky that is going to be consumed. I would be rather inclined to take the other view. With Russia dispensing with vodka and the temperance movement spreading probably owing to the war, I think there is going to be less whisky consumed since the duty has gone up.
Mr. W- T. WHITE:	I think my hon.
friend's opinion on that subject is very much better than my own. I bow to his superior judgment.


William John Macdonald: I am very glad to
find the Minister of Finance is willing to give some one else the right to express an opinion that is perhaps better than 'his own.


William Thomas White: I defer to an expert-


William John Macdonald: That does not affect the point of my argument. I was coming to the Department of Railways and Canals. The Intercolonial, I understand, is showing a surplus. In addition to his running the Intercolonial railway, my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals has very great and important interests from one end of the Dominion to the other under his charge. Yet he says that lie is willing to struggle along this year with only $812.50 more than he had last year. We find that our versatile and interesting friend the Min-


Pierre Édouard Blondin: My hon. friend is right *when he says that there is an increase of $13,175 in my department, but he is wrong when he says that that increase is due to new appointments. Most of this sum is due .to statutory increases.

Mr. AfcCRANEY:	How much is due to
statutory increases?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: There are five or six new appointments.


William John Macdonald: That is new appointments?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: That is new appointments-the balance is all due to statutory increases.


William John Macdonald: Take the first one in the Department of Inland Revenue.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: There is one at $2,800.


William John Macdonald: You are putting a man into the department at $2,800. Why do you need him?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: This is a promotion, I am informed, from the second division.


William John Macdonald: You put somebody else in the second division? Why do you promote him? What is he going to do?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: This is a promotion by order in council, but let us proceed. My hon. friend will not make any reproach to me for the appointment of a translator?


William John Macdonald: I am speaking of this additional officer to whom you give $2,800.
I want to know what his duties are and what his name is.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: That man was in the
$2,800 class. This is simply a promotion.
1 understand there is no change in [DOT] his salary.


William John Macdonald: You put somebody else in his place?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I lack the information
with respect to this man, but if my hon. friend will permit me to proceed I will supply the information later on.
Air. A1ACDONALD: This man has a pretty big salary and we want to know what he is going to do for it.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: This man is getting
$2,800 now.
Air. A1ACDONALD: What do you give the man that takes his place?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The other man starts at $2,100. He was in the department before, so that the increase is simply a promotion.
Air. A1ACDONALD: What is the name of this $2,800 man?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Air. Doyon.


William John Macdonald: What is he going to do?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: He is in the statistical branch.


William John Macdonald: We will pass that
one; we have not got much information about him; who is the next one?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The next one is the translator.


Charles Marcil: Has he been appointed? Mr. BLONDIN: No.


Charles Marcil: Will he be appointed by the minister or by the Civil Service Commission?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I hope he will be
appointed by the minister.


Charles Marcil: Will there be an age limit fixed in the case of this new translator?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: It is technical work, and I have always contended that there should not be an age limit.


Charles Marcil: But an age limit was fixed when the translators were appointed in the House of Commons.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: That is another question.


Mr. PROULX:: Why should there be any difference made; it is the same class of work?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: It is not in my department and 1 cannot discuss matters pertaining to the House of Commons staff.


Edmond Proulx: Last year there was a translator appointed by the House and the Civil Service Commission fixed an age limit; why should not the same thing be done in this case?	[DOT]


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I would be the last man in the House of Commons to take up the defence of the Civil Service Commission.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: There is an increased expenditure in this department and we should not allow the vote to pass without recording our protest. Notwithstanding the falling off in business there seems to be no attempt made at economy in this department, although some of the other departments have made a pretence at it. At a time when the poor people of the country have to pay extra for every drop of patent medicine they buy, when a poor country-woman cannot post a postcard without having to pay extra postage, when there are increased duties on boots and shoes and everything else, and when business is going to the dogs generally, one would think that the Minister of Inland Revenue would show some evidence of a desire to economize. The minister told us that some of this was represented by statutory increases of salaries to the officials, and when a man gets a statutory increase it is evidence of his ability to do his work satisfactorily, and there ought not to be any necessity for increasing the number of employees. It is true that the deputy minister of this department was a well-known lawyer in the city, without any qualification for a position in a department of this kind, and being appointed, and enjoying a high salary,
I suppose all the others in the department felt that they having some knowledge of the business of the department should get more pay. Another explanation may be that the ministers wanted to be kind to their new colleague in the Department of Inland Revenue, and there may have been reasons why they did not venture to suggest any interference with him, he being a man to be reckoned with. Perhaps the Minister of Finance and others of the ministers were afraid to discipline the new Minister of Inland Revenue, as he should have been disciplined, and hence they allowed him to increase the expenditure of his department. It might be all right if the country could afford it and if the Government were not piling on the taxes and bleeding the poor people white. If ever there was a time for economy surely it is now. Has the Minister of Inland Revenue increased his outside staff such as the preventive officers? If the minister has found that he has a preventive officer looking after the manufacture of illicit whisky in a district where illicit whisky has not been made for the last quarter of a century, is he still keeping that officer employed so as to give him some little reward for political services? There was a preventive officer in my country who had not instituted a prosecution for eight or nine years, and when the Conservatives came to power, there being nothing for him to do, they decided to dispense with his services. It was discovered that for the first few years he held office he had reported on two prosecutions and for the next nine years there was nothing to be done, and so the office was an honorary one, hut the officer being an old man they didn't discharge him. But he was finally discharged, and immediately after the change of government the then Minister of Inland Revenue employed another man, not-

withstanding that there was a report to the department that the services of such an officer were not required. In order to help him they made this new appointee food inspector and gave him $350 a year, but there was no food for him to inspect. I refer to an officer, in my own county, and I ask the minister now if there have been any prosecutions in that county since this officer was appointed. I do not believe that officer ever wrote a report because I know he has no duty to discharge. As a matter of fact, did this officer ever make a report to the minister?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: What is his name?


William Chisholm: Moses Delorey. He
is preventive officer and food inspector and he lives in a part of the county where there is no food exposed for sale. If he lived in a town or visited a town, there might be some reason for his going to the grocery stores and inspecting the food, but as a matter of fact he never did anything and never had anything to do. I am not saying anything against him personally because he is all right as a citizen of the community, and he is a loyal Conservative and he ought to have got a reward, but the Government ought to have rewarded him without doing anything so brazen as they have done and outraging public opinion and public morality. The people in that district, when they go to town have to pay an extra fare on the train; and they have to pay extra for everything they buy when they get to town, and probably they receive nothing more for the produce they have to sell, and in view of these conditions these supernumerary and unnecessary offices ought to be abolished.
I wish to refer to a matter that has not direct reference to this department. Some eight or nine immigration officers who were appointed for the province of Nova Scotia were given a three months' trip to the Old Country. Their salaries were $700 or $800 or $900. Separately the amounts are small, but collectively they are large. These agents have nothing to do. The one appointed for my county was a discharged railway sec-tionman. For some reason or another it was not convenient to replace him, and so he was made an immigration agent. There is on file in the department a report costing the country $800 or $900, and all the information contained in it is that up in the highlands of Scotland, whence this man's forefathers came, he met people who spoke Gaelic. We could get that information without paying $800 or $900 and with-[Mr. W. Chisholm.!
out sending a man all t'he way to the Old Country. The other officers who were appointed were men of the same class. With some two exceptions, they were illiterate and did not possess sufficient education to deliver public lectures describing the country whence they had come. I have nothing to say against them personally, but they were not fit for a position of that nature. They were appointed to these positions simply and solely as a reward for political service. My hon, friend the Minister of Inland Revenue has a number of the same class of men in his department. When he is trying to justify the increases in the inside service, he will see the necessity of lopping off these officials to whom I refer, who are neither ornamental nor useful.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I will give my best attention to the remarks of my hon. friend concerning Mr. Moses Delorey. The department has to have officers even in places where there is not much work to do, in order to prevent infractions of the law. The case of my hon. friend, of course, may be quite different.
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM: There is a report on file showing that this man's predecessor had nothing at all to do, and that the office could be abolished. In the face of that report my hon. friend is appointing another man and making him food inspector as well.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: My hon. friend will admit that I am not responsible for his appointment as food inspector. I will inquire into the matter. The salaries in cases such as the one my hon. friend has mentioned are not much over $100 or at most $200. The reason that my hon. friend is giving, namely, the extra tax on the people, to induce me to be more economical in the management of my department, is the same reason which imposes more work upon my officers than they had in the past, as I am sure my hon. friend will realize.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The Tilbury Gas Company supplies gas to many places in my section, and I am sure the minister has received a number of communications complaining that the gas is not purified. The town of Brantford, I understand, is taking the matter up with my hon. friend. Last year Mr. Nantel, my hon. friend's predecessor, sent a man to that district to inspect the gas and to report. He reported that the gas contained sulphur, and that it was not fit to be supplied to the people without being purified. The company made arrangements

with the various corporations to purify the gas; but when it came to operating and it had got the gas into the people's houses for cooking, in some cases for lighting and in other cases for heating, the company immediately turned on the unpurified gas. I wrote to my hon. friend since he came into the department, pointing out that in the case of Woodstock, as soon as the cold weather started and an additional amount of gas was requiredrthe company turned on the unpurified gas, which was dangerous to the health of the people. We were placed in a peculiar position. We had an agreement with the company that they were to supply purified gas; but if we enforced the agreement and made them cut off the gas, the consequence would be that the people would have nothing with which to cook and some of them nothing with which to heat their houses. We were between the devil and the deep sea, and we had therefore to take the unpurified gas. I know a great deal about the matter, as I had to suffer from the effects of this unpurified gas. The department should be able to caucel the company's right to operate if it does not carry out its agreement, as T understand the law gives the department the right to force the company to supply purified gas. Hon. members could not stand the unpurified gas in this chamber for half an hour. Their heads would ache so much that they could not see, and unpurified gas is certainly not fit for use in houses. Has the minister taken any steps to force this company to supply purified gas to tne various municipalities?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have received several letters in regard to the matter and some delegations have come to Ottawa. I have taken a great deal of interest in the question. My attention, however, was drawn to the fact that the particular section of the British North America Act mentioned as defining the scope of the powers of the Federal Government referred only to weights and measures, apparently leaving the quality of the gas to be dealt with by the provinces. My officers informed me that section 31 of the Gas Inspection Act, relating to the quality and purity of gas, was contested by some eminent lawyers as being beyond the powers of the federal authority. Therefore, I thought it best to refer the matter to the Department of Justice for its opinion as to the powers of my department, and I am expecting to receive their report at an early date.
Mr. NESBITT; Will you let me see the report when you receive it?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Are there any preventive officers in the county of Inverness at present?.	.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I do not see that there is any.


William Chisholm: The hon. minister in
replying to the hon. member for Antigonish justified the appointment of Mr. Delorey on the ground that his duty was to prevent the manufacture of whisky. And that is a good reason. There was a similar officer in Inverness, Mr. McDonald, who was dismissed, because evidently, the minister did not see very much for him to do. But if he will look up the history of his department he will find that, having regard to the past history of Antigonish and of Inverness, there will be more need for an officer in Inverness.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Because they made
whisky there?
Mr- CHISHOLM:	They used to charge
them with making some liquor there. I do not think they do it now. But if an officer were appointed it would make sure that they did not fall into the sins of former days. The hon. minister's predecessor dismissed Mr. McDonald because there was nothing for him- to do, and appointed the man in Antigonish; and there is nothing for him to do. The same reason that would justify the appointment in Antigonish would justify an appointment in Inverness. The man who was dismissed was a supporter of mine. But, as I am a believer in a measure that "To the victors belong the spoils" there may have been some justification for their action. But I understand that the difficulty about the appointment is that there are too many men who think that they ought to be appointed. I will try to influence my opponents to agree upon one man, and then I will suggest that he be appointed. Of course, he will be recommended by my defeated opponent, and then I hope he will be appointed.


William John Macdonald: With nothing to do-


William Chisholm: No, nothing to do, but
that does not make any difference.


Mr. BOULAY:: The dismissal may have been with a view to saving money, as in my own county. When we came into power in 1911, there was one preventive officer in Rimouski who had been appointed by the Liberals about ten years before, to do no-

thing. And when we came into power we found by the books that this man had actually been dismissed by the Liberal Government before they left office. They found that this man was doing so much nothing that they dismissed him themselves. We did not replace him because there was nothing for such an officer to do. My hon. friend from Antigonish should not be too much scandalized over the case he has referred to. If it is bad to appoint a man to do nothing, it must have been bad for his friends to appoint this man to do nothing and keep him in office for ten years.


William John Macdonald: If the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) did not get a man appointed in the Inland Revenue, he has been getting them appointed in the Railways and Canals Department all along the line from Moncton to Riviere du Loup. He is regarded with envy and admiration by other public men of that region, and with suspicion by his colleagues here because he is known as the greatest patronage hunter in the province of Quebec. We find the work of his hand as far down as Westmorland, and in western New Brunswick along the borders of the United States. His speech this evening is a real case of Satan rebuking sin. The minister stopped in his explanation at the translator. I wish he would go on with his explanation with regard to these other officers.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: In the Second Division, Subdivision A, there is an additional officer. This is a new analyst required for the new laboratories opened in Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Halifax.


William John Macdonald: You are giving him $1,600. Has he been appointed?


Mr BLONDIN:: This is to provide for his appointment.


William John Macdonald: You have no additions to the staff in the Methylated Spirits branch. You get along there without additional men?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes,


William John Macdonald: In the Electrical
branch, you need some assistance. Why?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Because the chief must often be away on official duties.


William John Macdonald: You have two chiefs, one man in the First Division of Subdivision A, to whom you pay $3,400, and another in the same division and subdivision to whom you pay $2,700.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: My deputy tells me that there must be an error in the account there. It ought to be $2,100. I will ask that this-item stand for further explanation.


William John Macdonald: I do not think the
minister has given us a very lucid explanation as to why he is going to spend this extra $15,000.


William Chisholm: I would ask the minister to lay on the table of the House a report showing what Moses De-lorey has done since he was appointed. I should like him to say also whether he is able to give any reasons for believing that there will not be anything for this gentleman to do in the future. If he cannot, I presume he will agree that any officials who are under similar circumstances should be dispensed with, in the interests of the country.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I will have much pleasure in laying a report on the table of the House.


William John Macdonald: We are willing to let this item pass if the minister, when he comes to deal with the outside branch, will give us an explanation with regard to the $2,700 to which I have referred.


Mr. OLIVER:: What is the scope of the duties of the inspectors of weights and measures?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: It is their duty to inspect and certify all scales in their district upon the request of any interested party and according to the regulations of the department. As scales are sold they are certified and stamped by officers of the department.


Charles Marcil: Measures as well as
scales?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes.


Mr. LAW:: How often are inspections of scales made?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The inspectors must
make an inspection in the same place every two years.


Charles Marcil: Is there any double system of measures in use at the present timer for instance, the imperial gallon and the old-style gaLlon? When buying maple syrup in Montreal recently, I found that there was a difference of 40 cents between the prices of the different measures; one is a larger gallon than the other.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The imperial gallon is the only gallon measure recognized in this country.


Charles Marcil: Is it an infraction of the law to use the old measure?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: Inspectors of weights charge a fee for inspection. What is the system of checking the money received for inspections; how is it known that the money is properly accounted for?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: When the officer makes an inspection of a scale he has to place a stamp on the machine; this stamp comes from the department at Ottawa.


Frank Oliver: At one time I was under the impression that the inspectors of weights and measures were on duty for the protection of the public, but that appears to be a misapprehension. As I understand their duty-what the minister has said confirms this, and I tfhink the public should know it-it is the protection of the dealer who owns the weight and measure, and not the protection of the public. The inspection is to guarantee that the dealer is not using a weight that is too heavy or a measure that is too large; it is no guarantee to the public that they are getting a full measure or a full weight. The point I want to make is that the inspector does not make his inspection in such ways or at such times as to give the public any assurance of protection. A dealer has a scale which is inspected and stamped by the inspector. That scale is in evidence when the inspector is there, and some other scale is in use when he is not there. I am not criticising the administration of my hon. friend; I am merely making the general criticism that so far as I am aware, the Department of Inland Revenue does not take steps, through the operations of their weights and measures officials, to protect the public interests and to see that honest weights are given and honest measures used.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I am afraid I did not make myself clear in answering the question of the hon. gentleman. Every merchant is compelled by law to have his
10 p.m. scale inspected at least every two years, but the inspectors are on duty all the time, looking over the scales that have been inspected, seeing that no other scales are used, and that no method is adopted whereby the merchant or anybody else may rob the public.


William Melville Martin: (Translation): Mr. Chairman, in Montreal complaints are made not only as regards the inspection of scales, but as regards the inspection of measures, such as pints,
quarts, etc. The public believe that they are not sufficiently protected in that respect, and I would like the honourable gentleman to inform the House as to the measures taken towards meeting such complaints.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The officers of the Department are at all times available to the public-free of charge. They play as it were fhe part of detectives and make every inquiry in that connection. It is their duty to give their services for the protection of the public.


William Melville Martin: In that case, the minister might give still stricter orders.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is the standing of D. Campbell, an official of the weights and measures branch at Strath-lorne? Is he an assistant, or the chief officer?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have not the information here.


William Chisholm: To begin with, let me tell the minister that I have a good deal of confidence in his sense of honesty and fairness. I am going to make one request of him. I am going to ask him to muzzle this man Daniel Campbell. He is the most active and I would say the most unscrupulous politician in the county of Inverness- and we have some of them there. It is seldom I have been heard to find fault in this House with any of my opponents in Inverness county, and I would not do so in this case if this man were not a paid officer of the Government. His business makes it necessary for him to go and see men of all shades of politics. There is not a convention, or a meeting or assemblage of Conservatives in the county of Inverness but he must be there and be head and tail of everything. He would have a perfect right to do that if he were not a paid officer of this Government, but if he is, I do not think it is fair or right. I will go further and say that I would not be very confident that a man would properly discharge his duties who is so influenced as this man is. He is a good officer, I believe, and does his duty all right when his political leanings do not carry him away. It is nothing to him to go to a meeting of the municipal council and stay there for a week at a time, when I am sure he has something else to do. At all events, he is paid for doing something else, and he attends the council for nothing else than to further the political interests of his party. I ask the minister

to take these few remarks to heart and correct this man, who is the only man in the county of Inverness that I have a word to say against.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I will certainly see that this man keeps quiet.


William Melville Martin: (Translation):	Mr. Chairman, I wish to
draw the attention of the Honourable Minister of Inland Revenue to what is going on in the country in regard to cut tobacco. I may state that the Department is losing heavily as a result of frauds committed, I am satisfied, at its expense. Many farmers cut their tobacco by passing it through a straw-cutter, without holding any license from the department. That is being done constantly, and more especially during snowstorms or bad weather, when such farmers shut themselves up in their barns and proceed to cut their tobacco. That is unfair competition on their part, and the Government is made to lose heavily thereby. I think that the department should have watchful inspectors, so as to put an end to such frauds.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: (Translation) :	In
answer to the honourable gentleman, I may say that our officers, though numerous, are kept busy going around and enforcing the law in that respect. The department is aware that frauds are being committed, detrimental to the revenue. Rigid measures have been taken to prevent and put a stop to such abuses. I thank the honourable member and shall be glad if he will suggest to the department any means that he may deem advisable for the better enforcement of the Act.


William Melville Martin: I would like to point out to the honourable gentleman that, in the same way that there are dishonest farmers, there are unscrupulous grocers who sell [DOT] cut tobacco in bags labelled thus: "Black Tea," "Green Tea," "Japan Tea," etc.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I shall be glad
if the honourable gentleman will forward to the officers of the Inland Revenue Department, in Montreal, any information in his possession. They have strict orders for the enforcement of the Act.


Frank Oliver: Referring once more to the inspection of weights and measures, I am to understand that it is a part of the duty of the officer, and the responsibility of the department, to protect the public. But I have

not been given to understand that by inspectors of weights and measures whom I have met. They have told me that they were purely officials; that is to say, that they were simply to test the accuracy of the *weight or the measure and that beyond that they did not have any responsibility for what I have called the protection of the public. That might be considered to be in the interest of the dealer rather than of the buyer. Now if it is the duty of the inspector to protect the public, I suggest to the minister that he pass the word to his inspectors all along the line to use greater diligence on that side of their duties than they have hitherto done; and that they recognize that they have a responsibility in the protection of the public in the actual use of those weights and measures, and that they take due means to discover-and in some cases it would not require very much effort- whether short measures or light weight was being given to the public.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Have not the inspectors power to confiscate inaccurate scales and measures?


Frank Oliver: Oh, yes.


William Cameron Edwards: It seems to me then, they have the power which the hon. gentleman thinks they lack. While it may be true that inspectors of weights and measures are supposed to protect the man who owns the scale, it is undoubtedly true that they make their inspections at unexpected times. They are liable to drop in at any moment to inspect the scales, and I would take that as an indication that inspectors are intended to protect the general public from improper weights and measures. I wish to call the minister's attention to one thing which I think worthy of his consideration. At the time the investigation was held at Montreal, in regard to the weighing of cheese, I visited that city and went over one of the factories where scales are manufactured. They told me that they manufactured a scale which was in general demand in the cheese factories throughout eastern Ontario and western Quebec, and they demonstrated to me that that particular kind of scale could not be relied on for any length of time. It might be tested to-day and prove correct, but after being in use for only a short time the scale would become defective.
I may say that there was a scale generally called for by the trade because it sold at a smaller price than a better scale. On account of that defective scale being in pretty general use in cheese factories throughout eastern Ontario and western

Quebec, there were discrepancies in the weights as given by the factories and the weights as recorded in Montreal, this leading to disputes and possibly a good deal of sore feeling because each party thought that his weight was right. The factory no doubt thought that they were weighing their stuff properly and the people in Montreal claimed differently. Is not the advisability of. getting out a standard scale in cheese factories, a scale which will stand the test of time and use, worthy of the consideration of the Minister? I would, in addition to that, express the view that the scales in cheese factories in particular should be inspected more frequently than they are. They should be inspected not merely once but twice or three times in a season. That would make for a better understanding between the producer of the cheese and the big exporter in Montreal and not only that but it would have a tendency to give us a better name in the English markets if our cheese went over there without any reflection being cast upon the people as to their giving full weight. I would like the minister to give his atttention to these suggestions.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I shall certainly take
note of the remarks of my hon. friend and give them consideration.


Mr. BOYER (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, as regards the inspection of scales in cheese factories, I may point out to the hon. gentleman that we have, in the province of Quebec, inspectors appointed specially by the provincial Department of Agriculture and under the control of the Dairymen's Association, whose duty it is to inspect at frequent intervals cheese factories and creameries. If only we were in a position to enable such inspectors to inspect scales, a work which is now under the control of the hon. gentleman, that department would find such inspectors to be very capable officers whose services would be precious to the public. The Minister of Agriculture was favourable to such a proposal, and the dairy industry in our province would be largely benefited by the granting of such powers to the aforesaid inspectors. Such inspection of the scales would entail no extra expense on the Government and would prove entirely satisfactory to the public.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: My attention has already been drawn to the matter, and it is being considered. I am confident that we shall be able to devise a means of inspecting scales in cheese factories and creameries that will be entirely satisfactory to the public.


John Howard Sinclair: What does the department do when a man is discovered using a defective scale and defrauding the public? Is there any action taken by the department to punish him or prosecute him?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The scale is confiscated and the party is subjected to a fine and the payment of the costs of the prosecutions.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: Before passing on to another matter, the hon. gentleman will allow me to say that last year-I mean during the session preceding that held in August-we amended the Act so as to protect maple syrup and sugar makers against adulteration of the products they sell. That enactment affords ample protection to producers, but if there be no inspection made, such protection is quite inadequate. For instance, the Act prohibits the use of labels which falsely state that such products are either maple sugar or maple syrup. However, it has been ascertained in the meantime that in many instances adulterated goods are sold labelled as maple syrup or maple sugar. The Co-operative Association of Maple Sugar Producers sent to the department a resolution stating the facts and protesting against what was going on. I have been requested to meet the officers of that association in the near future, and I should be glad if the hon. gentleman would kindly take me into his confidence and enable me to enlighten these people as to his intentions in that regard. Has he made up his mind to appoint inspectors for the purpose of ascertaining how the Act works? The enactment in itself is a good one, and his predecessor's intentions were excellent; but its enforcement should be looked after by inspectors. While there is no inspection, abuses persist, and the farmer is left without any protection whatever. I would like to know whether the hon. gentleman's intention is to fully apply the law?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The matter is now under consideration; the department will likely introduce an amendment to the Act so as to increase its efficiency, and I trust the hon. gentleman will be ready to assist me when it comes to increasing the number of inspectors.
Mr. J. .1. HUGHES: I understand that in cases where defective scales are discovered they are confiscated and the users are fined. Does the minister know if any fineB are remitted or not imposed?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: No, I do not.


James Joseph Hughes: In no case is that done?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I am informed that it might happen that a man has received a scale which was not correct and used it in good faith. Then the scale is confiscated, but no fine is imposed, or if imposed, is remitted.


James Joseph Hughes: If the minister will look at the records he will find that excuses which were not valid were put in certain cases and the fines remitted, and that influence had something to do with the remission of the fine.
Civil Government-Post Office Department, $932,710.


Charles Marcil: Is there any increase?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: There is an increase of $14,000. The statutory increases amount to $27,050. There is a difference in the salaries of clerks who died, left the service, or were promoted, and the salaries of clerks who filled the vacancies, amounting to $25,250, which if you deduct from the $27,050 leaves an increase of $1,800 in the salaries.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. W. T. White, the House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.
Monday, March 1, 1915.