1915-03-25

PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 88, for the relief of Adam Clarke Anderson.-Mr. Wallace.
Bill No. 80, for the relief of Thomas Jefferson Moore.-Mr. W. M. Martin.
Bill No. 90, for the relief of Alexander McIntyre.-Mr. Bristol.
Bill No. 91, for the relief of Violet Burnett Delmege.-Mr. Brahazon.
Bill No. 92, for the relief of Alice Beckett. -Mr. Michael 'Clark.
QUESTIONS.	^
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk].

Mr. SINCLAIR:: How much has been expended in the county and city of Halifax, N.S., by the present administration between the date on which they accepted office and the present date respectively,
[Mr. C. Mareil.'l
on railway construction, Halifax and Eastern, Branch; on new Halifax terminals, including railway approaching same, and on public works, inclusive of public buildings, wharves, breakwaters, etc. ?


Mr. CODERRE:: The Department of Railways and Canals as follows:	For increased accommodation, $327,307.12; for new pier, $915,694.31; South Eastern railway, for plans, surveys, etc., $85,000; for new ocean terminals, including railway approaching same, $1,976,519.74; total, $3,304,521.17.
The Department of Public Works as follows :	Harbour works, $222,642.67; public
buildings, $'246,646.30; total, $469,288.97.



H. GOBEIL.

Mr. KYTE:: 1.	Was H. Gobeil, former Deputy Minister of Public Works, employed by any department of the Government since October 10, 1911?
2.	If so, what was -the nature of such employment?
3.	What was the salary or remuneration paid him in respect of such employment?
4.	When did such employment cease?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	Yes, from 15th June, 1912.
2.	To prepare a complete history of the port of Quebec, in relation to the St. Lawrence trade; to investigate titles of ownership of lands required in connection with St. Charles river improvements, and compile other information required by the department.
3.	The difference between his superannuation allowance, $2,160, and $5,000, the salary, of a deputy minister.
4.	January 31, 1915.



PICTOU COUNTY RURAL MAIL.

Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Has any action been taken in regard to the petition asking that rural mail delivery be established to supply the districts of Hodson and Toney Mills, county of Pictou!
2.	If not, what is the cause of tne delay?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Yes, as regards Hodson district. A contract was awarded in January last for a rural mail delivery service over a route from River John post office via Hodson post office, and the inspector has been instructed to inaugurate the service as soon as fifty per cent of the eligible residents on the route pay for and erect their boxes.
No petition has reached the department for a rural mail delivery service in the Toney Mills district.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



LOUISVILLE POST OFFICE.

Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	Since the dismissal of Mr. L. F. Sansfagon as postmaster at Louisville, how often has the post office inspector employed an employee to make or assist in making the monthly report of the Louisville post office?
2.	At what date was his last trip made?
3.	Is the Government aware that the present postmaster, Mr. Geo. Lafontaine, is said to be absolutely incompetent, through lack of education, to fulfil the duties?
4.	Who has been appointed caretaker of the post office building at Louisville?
5.	What is his salary?
6.	What has been the revenue of the Louisville post office for each of the past three years?


Mr. CODERRE:: 1.	Since the dismissal of Mr. L. F. Sansfagon as postmaster, the post office has been inspected by officials of the office of the post office inspector at Montreal on 24th August, 1914, 12th January and 16th February, 1915; but the department has no knowledge of the inspector employing any person to make or assist in making up the reports of the post office.
2.	The last inspection trip was made on the 16th February, 1915.
3.	No. No complaints have been received at the department in regard to the management of the office.
4.	George Lafontaine.
5.	$33.33 per month.
6.	The revenue of the office for the past three years was as follows: 1912, $2,322.74; 1913, $2,601.41; 1914, $1,945.97.



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. K. Maclean:	For a return showing
the names, addresses, articles, quantities, prices and estimated total cost in connection with all articles of every kind purchased by the Government of Canada out of the War Supply Bill of $50,000,000 to this date, and unenumerated in the memoranda respecting work of the Department of Militia and Defence, European war, 1914-15, laid on the table of the House during the present session.
Mr. Macdonald:	For a copy of all letters,
papers, petitions, reports and other documents relating to the establishment of a rural mail delivery route, for the purpose of giving postal service to the districts of Hodson and Toney Mills, county of Pictou.
Mr. A. W. Chisholm: For a copy of all payrolls in possession of the Department of Public Works showing the expenditure of money on Mabou Harbour Piers, during the years 191213, and 1913-14, and the expenditure of money on Mabou harbour protection pier for one of the lighthouses in Mabou harbour during the years 1912-13 and 1913-14.
92i

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden, the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair:
Resolved, that an address be presented to His Most Excellent Majesty the King, in the
following words:
To the King's Most Excellent Majesty:
Most Gracious Sovereign :
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the	Commons of Canada, in Parliament assembled, humbly approach Your Majesty praying that he may graciously he pleased to give his consent to submitting a measure to the Parliament of the United Kingdom to amend certain provisions of the British North America Act, 1867, in the manner following, or to the following effect:
An Act to amend the British North America Act, 1867.	[DOT]
Be it enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
1. Notwithstanding anything in the British North America Act, 1867 , or in any Act amending the same, or in any Order in Council or terms or conditions of union made or approved under the said Acts, or in any Act of the Parliament of Canada:
(1)	The number of senators provided for by section 21 of the British North America Act, 1867, is increased from seventy-two to ninety-six.
(2)	The divisions of Canada in relation to the constitution of the Senate provided for by section 22 of the said Act, are increased from three to four; the fourth division to comprise the western provinces, Manitoba, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, which four divisions shall (subject to the provisions of the said Act and of this Act) be equally represented in the Senate, as follows:
Ontario, by twenty-four senators; Quebec, by twenty-four senators; the Maritime Provinces and Prince Edward Island, by twenty-four senators, ten thereof representing Nova Scotia, ten thereof representing New Brunswick and four thereof representing Prince Edward Island, the western provinces by twenty-four senators, six thereof representing Manitoba, six thereof representing British Columbia, six thereof representing Saskatchewan and six thereof representing Alberta.
(3)	The number of persons whom, by section 26 of the said Act, the Governor General may, upon the direction of the King, add to the Senate, is increased from three or six to four or eight, representing equally the four divisions of Canada.
(4)	In case of such addition being at any time made by the Governor General shall not summon any person to the Senate, except upon a further like direction by the King on the like recommendation, to represent one of the four divisions until such divisions are represented by twenty-four senators and no more.
(5)	The number of senators shall not at any time exceed one hundred and four.
[Stage Direction]
(6)	The representation in the Senate to which, by section 147 of the British North \ America Act, 1867, Newfoundland will be entitled, in case of its admission into the union, is increased from four to six members, and in case of the admission of Newfoundland into the union, notwithstanding- anything in the said Act, or in this Act, the normal number of senators shall be one hundred and two, and their maximum number one hundred and ten.
2. The British North America Act. 1867, is amended by adding thereto the following section immediately after section 5, of the said Act.
(51a) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, a province shall always be entitled to a number of members in the House of Commons not less than the number of senators representing such province.
All of which we humbly pray Your Majesty to take into your favourable and gracious consideration.
Right Hon.   S@: Mr. Chairman, there is no necessity to say a great deal about this resolution, as the matter was under consideration of the House last session. It is intended to be a joint resolution of the Senate and House of Commons, and the necessary blank space is left in the resolution for the inclusion of the words "Senate and." [DOT] The brief explanation which njay be made of the resolution is this: at the last session of Parliament Bills were introduced to increase the number of senators from the four Western Provinces. There was a consensus of opinion, I think, that, so far as Alberta and Saskatchewan are concerned, the Parliament of Canada had power to pass the necessary legislation to give the increased representation, but there was a difference of opinion as to Manitoba between hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House and us as to the competency of Parliament to increase the representation in the Senate of that province. As to British Columbia, it was agreed on both sides of the House that legislation of the Imperial Parliament was necessary. The House also had under consideration the necessity of making some new disposition in regard to the senatorial divisions which were constituted by the British North America Act, 1867. It was agreed that a resolution should be passed constituting four divisions for that purpose, instead of three as provided by the British North America Act, 1867. The additions proposed to be made to the representation of the western provinces are in conformity with the principle which was laid down in 1905 with respect to Alberta an'd Saskatchewan.
The last clause of the resolution has reference to the relation of the representation of each province in the Senate to that which it possesses in the House of Commons.

There was a recommendation by the committee which had under consideration the Redistribution Bill at the last session, and the proposal embodied in the second paragraph carries out the recommendation of the committee, and it passed the House unanimously. Eventually there arose a difference of opinion between the Senate and House of Commons in regard to the period at which these amendments to the British North America Act should take effect. My hon. friends from the province of Prince Edward Island have urged upon me that the resolution should again be introduced, and, after giving consideration to what they have urged upon me both privately and in the House of Commons, I have deemed it my duty to now present the resolution again to the House.


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: When this resolution was before the House last session we on this side did not in any way object, but rather tried to help the Government to come to a solution of questions which were vexatious in their nature. It was felt, and rightly felt, that the representation of the provinces in the Senate should be readjusted to meet the present condition of things after forty years of development since Confederation. My right hon. friend (Sir Robert Borden) has stated that as to that feature these changes were first suggested and enbodied in the Act which created the two provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta in 1905. The gist of this resolution is that to the three groups of population which were created at Confederation, namely, Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces, we add a fourth group representing the western provinces, and to this we altogether agree. The second part of the resolution refers not only to Prince Edward Island but to the maritime provinces generally. It is proposed to amend the British North America Act in these words:
Notwithstanding anything in this Act, a province shall always be entitled to a number of members in the House of Commons not less than the number of Senators representing such province.
It has been a grievance with the Maritime Provinces that their representation in the House of Commons has continued to de-crease'from decade to decade. It has been explained, and it is the true explanation, that at the time of the formation of Confederation no * one anticipated the extraordinary developments which were to take place west of lake Superior and in consequence of which the representation of the

maritime provinces in the House of Commons has decreased from decade to decade. We had to deal with the matter in 1902. At that time the province of New Brunswick, in particular, felt very much the diminution in representation which it had to undergo.
It was a special grievance in the province of Prince Edward Island, which always contended that under the terms of Confederation they should at all times he entitled to six members. Whatever may be the merits of this contention-it is true the record does not show it-I believe that what is now proposed is a fair compromise, and ought to be so accepted by all the provinces, so that henceforth, whatever may be its fall in population, the province of Prince Edward Island shall be entitled to a representation of fouT members. So far I altogether support the resolution. Last session, when this matter went to the Upper Chamber an amendment was moved to this effect:
That this Act shall not take effect until the termination of the now existing Parliament.
In other words, it was suggested by the Pipper Chamber that this resolution should take effect not after a general election, but at the time of the dissolution and not before.
We passed last year a new Act providing for a redistribution of the representation in the House of Commons, and in that Act the western provinces were given a marked increase of representation in this House. That ' Act does not come into force on the day of its promulgation, but at the termination of the present Parliament. There is this disposition to that effect in the Act:
This Act shall take effect only on the dissolution of the present Parliament.
This was not necessary, because the constitution itself provides that a redistribution shall not take effect until the dissolution of Parliament, but it was done from an abundance of prudence. The effect of the amendment made by the Upper Chamber was simply to put into the Bill the same provision with regard to increased representation in the Upper Chamber as the provision with regard to increased representation in the House of Commons; that is to say, that the Bill should only come into effect upon the dissolution of Parliament. The amendment came back to the House of Commons, and it did not commend itself to the judgment of my hon. friends opposite. I thought it was reasonable and fair, and that, as a measure of compromise, it should have been accepted
in that spirit. The Government, however, took a different view. I do not know what position will be taken this year in the Upper Chamber, but I present the views of that body as they come to me; and, as I have said, I thought they were fair and in a spirit of compromise in regard to the whole measure. I hope in this instance, as our blood has had time to cool, in this chamber as well as in the other chamber, that we shall be able to dispose of this important question in a manner satisfactory to all partie concerned.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: My right hon.
friend says that we shall wait and see what view the Government takes of this question this year; but it will be necessary first to see what view the Senate takes of it this year. Last year, if. my memory serves me well-and I think it does-we in this House unanimously concurred in not agreeing to the Senate amendment, and we gave reasons for our action. Those reasons seemed to be good at the time, and they commended themselves to the judgment of the House, because there was no dissent. It is of very little use, however, to thresh over these questions of the past. The main question now is, what we shall do and what the Senate will do this time, and I need add nothing to what I have said.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Representing one of the smaller provinces in the Dominion and one which is likely to be affected in the future by these proposed changes in the British North America Act, I desire to say that I think it was a very happy thought, on the part of the committee which had charge of the Redistribution Bill, to recommend the making of this provision. The problem is a very difficult one. It has been under consideration for a long time, and representations have been made from time to time to this Parliament by the maritime provinces urging that some provision should be made under which their representation should not be reduced. We in New Brunswick have the feeling that it would be proper to restore the representation to that which it was at the time of Confederation; but there were difficulties in the way which seemed to be insurmountable. One can, of course, understand that objections would be raised by the other provinces to changing the constitution. The provision, that a province shall always be entitled to a number of members in the House of Commons not less than the number of Senators

representing such province, ought to be satisfactory, although it is not what the Maritime Provinces had hoped for. Still, under the circumstances, it is perhaps the very best solution possible.
Does my right lion, friend not think that there ought to be some provision in this Bill, that in the adjustment of representation from time to time, the population of the added territory of the province of Quebec should not be included as forming the unit of representation P There is a consensus of opinion that Quebec should be entitled to 65 representatives, apart altogether from the population of the added territory in that province, arid that in the redistribution from time to time the population of that added territory should give to that province additional representation. If that idea is to be brought into effect, now is the time to make provision for it. I merely throw out that suggestion to my right hon. friend. I presume he has considered it.


Robert Laird Borden: The suggestion of my hon. friend admits of a very ready answer. So far as to the territory which was added three years ago that provision was made, as my hon. friend will doubtless recollect, and it is effective. As to the territory added, in 1897, I do not thinl' is competent for this Parliament to move in the matter without getting the consent of the province of Quebec because in every case where a change is made in the boundaries of a province, it is made with the consent of the Dominion Parliament on the one hand and of the legislature of the province on the other. It would not be competent for us to approach the Imperial Parliament to alter the dispositions agreed to at that time, without the consent of the province concerned.


William Pugsley: I am afraid that Parliament has not got rid of the matter yet, so far as New Brunswick is concerned at all events, because we can no doubt come back in the future and make a contention similar to that to which I have referred. The addition made to Quebec previously is the most important consideration, because in that territory there will be the largest increase in population. As the question of representation was not dealt with when the previous addition to the territory was made, it would be quite competent for Parliament to deal with it now. It would, not be in any way adding to boundaries; it would be making that provision which I think ought to be made under the terms of the British 
North America Act. It is very clear that Quebec, in regard to representation and readjustment from time to time, means the province of Quebec as it existed at the time of the passing of the British North America Act; and if the population of any added territory, whether that territory was added three years ago or eighteen years ago, or fifty years ago, should be entitled to representation according to its popu-. lation, in addition to the 65 representatives from the province of Quebec, I am unable to see hovr, as between one province and the other provinces of the Dominion, it would be necessary that the province of Quebec should be a party. Even if it were necessary, I would take it for granted that the legislature of that province would consent to what seems fair and what, by the terms of the Act to which my right hon. friend has referred, is recognized as being in accordance with constitutional principles. I merely mention the matter now with the understanding that, so far as I am concerned as representing the province of New Brunswick, I do not feel that our case is concluded, but that I shall be at liberty to bring it up at a later date.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a good deal of force in some of the observations of my hon. friend, and it is because we realized the force of those considerations that we made the stipulation with the province of Quebec when territory was added to that province three years ago. Unfortunately the same thing was not done in 1897, and the attention of Parliament apparently was not called to the subject at that time. For the reason that I have already mentioned, namely, that the proposal with regard to adding territory to any- province must be assented to both by the Parliament of Canada and by the legislature of the province, and because they were so definitely assented to in 1897, it seems to me that we could not alter the arrangement, it being virtually a contract as made at that time, without the consent of the province of Quebec. Therefore it does not seem to me that at this date we can take any effective action in the matter. It is not likely, moreover, that the territory in the immediate future will have any considerable population. So the considerations which the hon. gentleman has brought forward might be urged by him at a later date with the same effect or with greater effect than they could have at the moment.
Mr. A. A. McLEAN (Queens, P.E.I.j: As I understand from the right hon. the

Prime Minister, this resolution is identical with the one which was introduced last session. That part of it which provides that the representation in the House of Commons was not in any case to be less than the representation in the Senate for any province, is the one in which the members from the Maritime Provinces are particularly interested. The first part of this resolution does not greatly interest the members from the Maritime Provinces. We would naturally wish that the resolution which affects us should not be coupled with any resolution which would meet with the disapproval oi the hon. members of the Senate or contain anything which they would think contentious. Earlier in the session I asked the right hon. leader of the Government if he would not consent to introduce the part of this resolution relating to the Maritime Provinces, separately from that part which relates to the West. I would ask again to have tlfht done. I do not, of course, suppose that the Senate will do what they did last year; I do not see any reason why they should, because if the West is entitled to the additional representation now they are entitled to have their senatorial representation increased just as much as if the readjustment were postponed until after the dissolution of this Parliament. I do not intend to discuss that phase of the matter. What interests me is the second portion of this resolution, and that alone; and I would ask the Government to consider this matter before they go any further with the resolution. There is no reason why there should not be two separate resolutions. If there is anything contentious or anything which the Government think would not meet with the approval of the Upper House, I would say that, in order to meet the wishes of the representatives from the maritime provinces, the second part of this resolution should be introduced separately. I did not suggest it lately to the right hon. leader of the Government, but when the matter was up about a fortnight ago I did make that representation, and I would again ask that the Government should reconsider the matter. We no doubt are entitled, -so far as Prince Edward Island is concerned, to a representation of six, as has been stated in this House on many occasions. I think we have undoubted evidence that it was T&ally intended when we entered Confederation that we should have a representation in this House of at least six; but the committee who had charge of the Redistribution Bill thought otherwise, and they suggested as a compromise that no province should have a representation in this House less than their representation in the Senate. This matter was first brought up in this House by the representatives from Prince Edward Island. The provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick at that time, I think about the year 1900, did not foresee that their populations would decrease or Tather that the populations of the other provinces would so increase that their representation would decrease; but they have now come to realize that they are situated very much as are the people of Prince Edward Island, and they iare anxious, of course, that their representation should be what was originally intended. My own opinion is that the gentlemen who formulated the terms of Confederation did not realize the meaning of the word " adjust," they imagined that it meant that the representation should be increased or could be increased, 'but that it should never be diminished. Of course the delegation from Prince Edward Island in 1873 had before them the resolutions passed by the Legislature of British Columbia and by this Parliament admitting British Columbia into the Union, but I do not even now believe that delegates from Prince Edward Island or even this Parliament realized the meaning of the word " adjust " as used in the resolutions which were passed here with reference to the admission of Prince Edward Island into this Union. At any rate, all the preliminaries to the admission of Prince Edward Island, the telegrams and other communications, go to show that Prince Edward Island intended that they should enter this Union with a representation of six, and that this number should not be liable to be diminished. Under these circumstances this matter has been argued over and over again -before this House; and under the circumstances of the case I would suggest to the right hon. leader of the House that this resolution relating to representation should be put before the House separately from the other part of the resolution which relates to the representation in the Senate for the western provinces.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that all my hon. friend has in mind will be carried out if the resolution is sent to the Senate in its present form. There is no reason to believe that the Senate will adhere to their view of last year. If they do adhere to it then it will be time enough to consider the suggestion of my hon f-ien<L
14D4


Mr. J. J. HUGHES (Kings', P.E.I.):: As a member from the Maritime Provinces, and coming from Prince Edward Island, I am, of course, very much interested in the resolutions before the House; and I must say I regret that the Government has not seen its way clear to provide that the representation from the island province should be six instead of four. When this subject was before the Redistribution Committee last session several delegations came from the province of Prince Edward Island and placed before that committee the views of the province in connection with this matter. I think they also presented those views to the Government, but of that I am not quite certain. However, I know that the Prime Minister was quite familiar with the arguments that these gentlemen presented, because he referred to them in this House. These men were quite familiar with the subject, they were representative men from our province; one of them was the Premier and Attorney General of the province, the other was Mr. Stewart, now Judge Stewart, and the right hon. the Prime Minister, in referring to their arguments, stated that they had presented their case clearly, cogently and forcibly.
I am sorry that they failed to make an impression on the Prime Minister; it .would have been much better to have met the views of these gentlemen than merely to have flattered them for their arguments. However, as the right hon. gentleman is not disposed to meet their views, and as the right hon. leader of the Opposition states that in his opinion the present proposal is a fair compromise, I presume that we cannot do better than accept it. I must put in the proviso, however, that we will not accept this as closing the door entirely; we retain the privilege of bringing the question up at any time when we think it may receive more favourable consideration. I am glad to hear the Prime Minister say that the latter part of the reso

lution, which relates to the representation of this Chamber, will, if necessary, be separated from the other part of the resolution in order that the proposal particularly affecting Prince Edward Island may become legislation this session. But I want to ask the right hon. Prime Minister if he is quite mire that, the procedure which he is adopting is the proper procedure. I am not learned in the law, and in saying this, I present not my own view, but the view of Judge Stewart, who gave a written opinion that this is an entirely improper procedure.
>oir Fotiert Bopden.]
At the time he gave this opinion he was a barrister in Charlottetown; later a vacancy occurred on the bench and the Government thought so much of his legal knowledge and ability that they appointed him to fill that position. Judge Stewart was one of the delegates who came here to aTgue this question before the Redistribution Committee and the Government. He came with Premier Mathieson, and I think I am justified in saying that Judge Stewart's opinion and Premier Mathieson's would be identically the same on this question. In our province this has been and is a very live question. I was accused of not being quite orthodox in the matter; of not being favourable to the views that were entertained and upheld very strongly in Prince Edward Island. I think the right hon. Prime Minister was instrumental, to a considerable extent, in circulating that opinion, because ''he referred to a speech I made in 1903 in which he said that I used arguments that gave him great trouble-particularly that I used the word "oversight" instead of "unforseen" -when he wanted to do something for Prince Edward Island. I had to combat that idea, and in a letter to the press I pointed out that in the session of 1906 and again in the session of 1907, I had moved a resolution identical in principle with the resolution that is now before the committee: that an address be presented to the King asking him to submit a measure to the Imperial Parliament to amend the British North America Act so that no province of the Dominion should have fewer representatives in this Chamber than it had when it 12 m. entered Confederation. In 1907 I introduced a similar resolution, asking that an address be presented to His Imperial Majesty praying him to submit a measure to the Imperial Parliament providing that no one of the maritime provinces should have fewer representatives'in this Chamber than the number that was assigned to it -when it entered Confederation. In principle this resolution is identical with the one now before the committee. I will read to the committee the opinion of Judge Stewart, to which I have referred. Referring to the letter which I wrote to the press, he says:
In this letter he asserts that in the session of 1906 he moved for a resolution for an address to the King to have the British North America Act amended so that no province should have at any time fewer representatives in Parliament than it was given when it entered the Confederation, and failing in this the follow-

ing session he moved another resolution to the effect that the Constitutional Act should be so amended that the Maritime Provinces should not at any time have fewer representatives in the House of Commons than what was assigned each of them when they entered the union. If Mr. Hughes were some enemy of our province and desired to kill our case completely, he could not have made a more effectual move for accomplishing his purpose. Every one knows that there never was and never will be the slightest chance of such a resolution passing through Parliament, and if Mr. Hughes had any proper comprehension of the case and possessed that foresight which is expected of all representatives, he never would have thought of submitting such an absurd proposal.
If I may be permitted to use the name of the right hon. Prime Minister instead of my own in reading this opinion of Judge Stewart's, it would run this way:
Every one knows that there never was and never will be the slightest chance of such a resolution passing Parliament, and if Mr. Borden had any proper conception of our case and possessed that foresight which is expected of all representative^, he never would have thought of submitting such an absurd proposal.
Of course, I think Mr. Stewart is wrong, but I want to 'direct the attention of the committee and of the right hon. gentleman to Mr. Stewart's opinion. I am justified in believing that that opinion is entertained also by the premier of the province, who is also the attorney general. The date of Mr. Stewart's letter is March 26, 1914; it was published in the issue of the Charlottetown Guardian of March 27, 1914. The Guardian very strongly supports the present local and federal governments. This is the Guardian's editorial comment upon Mr. Stewart's letter. It, says:
Mr. Hughes unearthed a resolution which he submitted to the House of Commons praying that a petition be presented to the Imperial Parliament asking for an amendment to the British North America Act to provide that the three Maritime Provinces "shall not at any time have fewer representatives in the House of Commons than the number that was assigned to each when it entered the Confederation -striking directly at the root of the principle of Confederation."
To charge the right hon. gentleman with striking at the root of the principle of Confederation is a very serious charge * to bring against him. The article goes on:
As the Premier-	,
That is, the Premier of our province.
-pointed out in the Legislature, and as Mr. Stewart emphasizes in his letter, the Island's case requires very different handling from that, and it has received it at the hands of the local Government, Mr. McLean-
That is, the member who has just spoken.
-Mr. Nicholson, Senators Murphy, Prowse and Yeo.
These are the opinions of distinguished men and of an important newspaper, and I give them to the House for what they are worth. The Prime Minister himself has a very high opinion of these men, because, as I have already pointed out, when Premier Mathieson and Mr. Stewart came here as delegates from Prince Edward Island, the Prime Minister said that they had presented their case in clear, cogent and forcible argument, and later on he appointed Mr. Stewart to the bench in our province. The views of these gentlemen should therefore be worthy of consideration. We do not want any mistake made this time, and, if the present procedure is wrong, we want to know it in time, because we are very anxious that this resolution should pass and become law; so I commend to the House and in particular to the right hon. gentleman who leads the Government the well-considered and matured opinions of Judge Stewart, of Premier Mathieson, and of the editor of the Charlottetown Guardian.
Mr. 0. TURGEON (Gloucester):	May I
be permitted to call the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that in this clause, which is to give the various groups of the provinces an equal number of representatives in the Senate, we are merely asking that material form be given to the spirit of the resolution. In the last part we are asking that both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution be changed. My right hon. friend knows my long and strict adherence to the Constitution.
I think this proposal the most moderate which has ever been offered, and perhaps the most acceptable to every member of this House, as well as- to the different legislatures of the Dominion. My right hon. friend knows that each of the maritime provinces has made its own appeal about this representation to the Privy Council, but in every case the Privy Council denied their appeals; and these judgments of the Privy Council may have considerable weight, not only with the Imperial Government, but with the members of the Imperial Parliament as well. I am perfectly willing to accept this proposal as a very moderate one, but, in order to secure its acceptance by the Imperial Parliament, would it not be better first to submit it to an interprovincial conference; for it is scarcely two years ago that a con-

ference of the provinces denied this right to the maritime provinces. I believe that if the Prime Minister referred this proposal to the judgment of the Provincial Legislatures and secured their assent or, at least, their favourable comment, the proposal would be sanctioned by the Imperial Parliament. I join with my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island in suggesting that this proposal be separated from the other, in order that it may be submitted to the Provincial Legislatures for their assent.
On the first part of the resolution:
(1)	Tlie number of senators provided for by section 21 of the British North America Act, 1867, is increased from seventy-two to ninety-six.
(2)	The divisions of Canada in relation to the constitution of the Senate provided for by section 22 of the said Act, are increased from three to four; the fourth division to comprise the western provinces, Manitoba, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, which four divisions shall (subject to the provisions of the said Act and of this Act) be equally represented in the Senate, as follows:
Ontario, by twenty-four senators; Quebec, by twenty-four senators; the Maritime Provinces and Prince Edward Island, by twenty-four senators, ten thereof representing Nova Scotia, ten thereof representing New Brunswick and four thereof representing Prince Edward Island, the western provinces by twenty-four senators, six thereof representing Manitoba, six thereof representing British Columbia, six thereof representing Saskatchewan and six thereof representing A'berta,
(3)	The number of persons whom, by section 26 of the said Act, the Governor General may, upon the direction of the King, -add to the Senate, is increased from three or six to four or eight, representing equally the four divisions of Canada.
(4)	In case of such addition being at any time made by the Governor General shall not summon any person to the Senate, except upon a further like direction by the King on the like recommendation, to represent one of the four divisions until such divisions is represented by twenty-four senators and no more.


William Pugsley: Is there not some mistake in the printing in subsection 4? It
says;
Except upon a further like direction by the King on the like recommendation, to represent one of the four divisions until such divisions is represented-


Robert Laird Borden: The " s " should be off the word "divisions".


William Pugsley: That would make that
all right, but, again, in the first line of subsection 4, it says:
In case of such addition being at any time made by the Governor General shall not summon any person to the Senate.
Some words may have been left out.


Robert Laird Borden: I am obliged to my hon. friend. I will look at it.


Mr. GRAHAM:: In paragraph 4 the word " by " should be left out.


Robert Laird Borden: I have before me the resolution as it was before the committee last year. I see that the word " by " should he left out. I am obliged to my hon. friend for directing attention to the matter.
Resolution as amended reported and concurred in.


Robert Laird Borden: That it he resolved that the House do send to the Senate to inform their Honours that the House has passed an address to His Most Excellent Majesty the King praying that he will be graciously pleased to give his assent to submitting a measure to the Parliament of the United Kingdom to amend certain provisions of the British North America Act, 1867, in the manner set forth therein, and request that their Honours will unite with this House in the said address by filling up the blank therein with the words " Senate and."


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair.
['I agree with\nwhat the hon. member for South Renfrew said about the engineering corps; I think it is going to be a very fine corps. I may say, in addition to the explanation given by the Minister of Militia-I know something of this, having been Acting Minister for a time-that it was suggested from this side in October Tast that we have in Canada a number of very capable railway engineers and railway contractors, men accustomed to doing things quickly, whose services might be very valuable indeed in connection with the rebuilding of railways that had been destroyed in the course of the war. At that time it was not thought that they were needed, but later-I think it was in February-we received an intimation from the War Office that they would be very glad if such a corps could be organized in Canada. We got in touch with some of the large railway corporations, and eventually it was left to Colonel Ramsey who, I understand, is a very capable man, to undertake the organization of this corps. It was thought that by reason of his knowledge and experience he would be able to do this work more effectively than if it were done by the department itself. The matter, therefore, has been left entirely to him, and from what I have heard of the progress which has been made in organizing the corps, it promises to be a most excellent body of men; I have no doubt that they will do excellent work when they get to the front. The Minister of Militia informs me that applications for enlistment in this corps will be received at the office of any divisional superintendent throughout the country.\nProgress reported.\t.\nOn motion of Sir Robert Borden the House adjourned at 11.10 p in.', 'Friday, March 26, 1915.']
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Mr. Chairman, I desire to make a requeslt of my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane). It is that he negotiate with the contractors of the Halifax and Eastern railway for terms by which the operation of that road might commence between Dartmouth and Musquodoboit harbour or a point further east if circumstances permit. The construction of the Halifax and Eastern railway was commenced in 1912. I think it was in that year that the contract for its construction was entered into. The railway is incomplete. The grading is very nearly finished and the rails are laid for a very considerable distance from the western termini at Dartmouth. This railway has been long and anxiously waited for by the people residing in the district traversed by it and there is considerable disappointment over the delay in its completion and the commencement of its operation. The rails are all laid, as I understand, between Dartmouth and Musquodoboit harbour, t. distance of 25 miles in a southeasterly direction. The road bed, I understand, is to this point in very good condition, the rails being laid and I think all the heavy bridges have been erected. There is no reason why a train service should not

now be running from Dartmouth to Mus-quodoboit harbour. For a few weeks in the later months of last year a freight passenger service was in operation under some arrangements between the contractors and the Department of Railways and Canals. This service was operated by the contractors. I should say that the Government have not yet taken over the railway and it is still in the hands of the contractors. The country between Dartmouth and Musquodoboit is an old section, there is in that district a considerable population. If the road were in actual operation it would perform a valuable service for those people and it would be decidedly in the public interest to commence the operation of the road at the earliest date possible.
What I want particularly to urge upon the minister is that some working arrangement be made between the department and the contractors whereby a daily passenger and freight service may be put into operation between Dartmouth and Musquodoboit harbour or a point further east if possible. It would be a very great convenience to the people living in the district traversed by the road. The road not yet being in the hands of the Government but in that of the contractors, in order to secure a passenger and freight service at the present time it would be necessary for the department to enter into an operating contract with the contractors. I think it quite likely that the contractors would insist upon the payment of some amount for the performance of the service and I wish to submit that under all the circumstances the department would be justified in making such an expenditure. I do not think it would be very large but it would enable the contractors to carry on the service without loss to themselves and I hope with some little profit. I do not think that they would ask for more than a reasonable profit for the operation of the road.
There is just one other point that I would like to call to the attention of the minister. When this section of the road was in operation last fall, the contractors were obliged to stop their trains a mile or a mile and a half from the town of Dartmouth, owing to the fact that they were unable, or were not permitted, to enter into the town over the Intercolonial rails from the Acadia Sugar Refinery to Dartmouth ferry. I am not acquainted with the reasons for the refusal to permit the contractors to run their train directly into the town of Dartmouth. There possibly may have been good reasons for the refusal.
I would like to urge upon the minister that it would be well for him to enter into an arrangement with the contractors by which permission would be granted to them to run their traina as far as the Intercolonial station near the ferry wharf, which, as the minister knows, would be a very convenient point for receiving passengers and freight. I do not know that there is anything further that I can say upon the matter, except to assure the minister that if he can enter into such an arrangement with the contractors it will be a very great convenience to the section of the country interested, to the city of Halifax, and to other sfections of Halifax county not directly contiguous to the railway. I would therefore urge the minister, as quickly as possible, to enter into negotiations with the contractors, and ascertain if he could make a reasonable working arrangement with them for the operation of this portion of the Halifax and Eastern railway.


Mr. COCHRANE:: I discussed with the contractors the question of operation some weeks ago, and, in fact, we arranged for a temporary operation. They complained that there were some temporary bridges that they were afraid to run passenger trains over. The permanent bridges are under way now, and will be in place shortly. The question of running trains over the Intercolonial tracks into Dartmouth has also been taken up and will be arranged definitely. In reference to the other matter which the hon. gentleman has mentioned, I will take the matter up and see what can be done to secure the temporary operation of the road. I think it may go farther than the particular point that the hon. gentleman has mentioned; it may go to Country Harbour. I shall be very glad to take the matter up.
, Mr. SINCLAIR:	Before the minister
leaves the question of branch lines in Eastern Nova Scotia, I would like to ask him if he has any information for the people of my constituency in regard to the proposed branch in that county. I understand that the minister made a survey of the road during the past season. He was kind enough to answer a question I asked a few days ago by saying that this matter was under consideration. I would like to know what his policy is in regard to the construction of the proposed branch line. Is it to build a line to the port of Country Harbour and also to the port of Guys-borough, or has he any other scheme on hand in regard to it, and does he propose soon to take any action?


Francis Cochrane: The line is to run from Sunnybrae, and down to the ferry there, with a .branch up to Guysborough. It is not definitely settled yet to which point it will go, or whether it will go to Guysborough and Country Harbour. When the Supplementary Estimates come down there will be an appropriation for starting the work.


Mr. TURGEON:: While we are discussing branch lines, has the minister come to a decision to build that small spur that joins the Intercolonial main line at Bathurst with the works in the harbour?


Francis Cochrane: That will be in the
Supplementary Estimates. We propose to construct it.


Mr. MARCIL:: Early in the present session I inquired of the minister in regard to a balance of subsidy claimed by Mr. C. R. Scoles for the completion of the contract on the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway. I was informed by the minister that it had been paid. I subsequently moved for the papers, which were brought down on the 20th of March, in regard to the payment made to Mr. Scoles, and I regret that those papers did not give me the information I was anxious to get. In 1901, under 1 Edward VII, chapter 27, a subsidy was voted to the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway, to construct 20 miles of railway from Capla'n to Paspebiac, and a stipulation was put in the Subsidy Act that, when the road was completed, $35,000 of the subsidy was to be paid to the Hamilton Bridge Company for the erection of bridges; that some portion of the money was to be applied to the completion of the road and that the balance was to be paid to the labourers and others who had claims for labour, board and material. The work was performed by Mr. Scoles and by the Hamilton Bridge Company, who erected the bridges. They were paid. Then Mr..Scoles entered into a contract with the trustees for the bondholders of the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway, and he did his part of the work for them. When the time came to ascertain what Mr. Scoles was entitled to receive, an engineer from the Railway Department, I think Mr. Johnson, was sent to estimate the amount that Mr. Scoles was entitled to and the amount of the subsidy that was to be paid. Mr. Johnson and, I think, the accountant of the department at that time, agreed that the amount was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $154,000. I objected to the payment of such a large amount, because I .thought

it had not been earned, and that the road was not in the condition in which it should be. Mr. McLeod, one of the oldest engineers of the department, was sent down by Mr. Schreiber, and he went over the whole work. He reported that Mr. Scoles, who at that time -had been paid $104,000, had received all that he was entitled to. There remained therefore in the hands of the department a balance of some $18,400, which I claimed for the labourers and which Mr. Scoles claimed for himself. The matter remained in that condition until 1907, when an Act was passed in this House authorizing the Quebec Oriental Railway to acquire the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway, the old Baie des Chaleurs railway and the Atlantic, Quebec and Western railway. In that Act it was stipulated that, when the Quebec Oriental Railway acquired those roads, it would become liable to pay $50,000 for claims for labour, board and material. My intention at that time was to take the $18,400 which was claimed by Mr. Scoles, but which Mr. McLeod said that he had no right to have, and to add that $50,000 to it, and to ask the Minister of Railways to appoint a commissioner to distribute both of those sums amongst the claimants for labour, board and material along the railway. The then Minister of Justice, Sir Allen Aylesworth, informed me that that $18,400 was at the disposal of the Department of Railways for the payment of those claims for board, labour and material. The matter remained in that state. The Quebec Oriental Railway took over those two railways; but it does not seem to have made the payments necessary, and Mr. Scoles seems to be operating the road now under contract with the bondholders, for the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway on the one hand and the other part of the road for the representatives of the creditors of the Charing Cross Bank. The road is therefore practically under operation by some private agreement between Mr. Scoles and those people.
The point I want to get at is this. There is nothing in the papers to show why Mr. Bell, the financial comptroller of the department, reversed the decision arrived at by Mr. McLeod, that Mr. Scoles was not entitled to this money. It is to the credit of Mr. Scoles that, under very trying circumstances, under conditions of great hardship, he kept this road in operation for fifteen years. The road constructed by Mr. C. N. Armstrong in the old days is now in a dilapidated condition; that is,

that portion of it from Matapedia to New Carlisle. The portion of it from New Carlisle to Gaspe is in first-class order, a modern road, built only lately, and it can he operated to the entire satisfaction of -every one. The old portion is being run now at. great personal inconvenience to the travelling public, because the trains run off the track almost .every day, although Mr. Scoles, by dint of hard work and all the efforts he has made day and night, has kept the road in operation; but practically the whole of the old portion of the road must be built from Matapedia to New Carlisle. I would like to know what convinced the department that Mr. Scoles was entitled to that $18,000 which we contended was due to the labourers ?


Francis Cochrane: The Auditor General refused to issue his certificate to any one but Mr. Scoles, saying that he was entitled to it. I am sorry to say that that $50,000 has never been handed over for distribution amongst the other ^creditors. The only thing to be done is for the Government to take over the road and to keep that sum hack. When that time will come, I personally do not know. As long as the present financial stringency exists, it is hard to make any promises as to what roads will be taken over.
Mr. MARCH.: A portion of the money has already been paid by the department itself, to the labourers, for board, material and supplies. When it had been ascertained what amount of the subsidy was due, we paid $35,000 to the Hamilton Bridge Works Company for the bridges, and we paid $104,000 to Mr. Scoles on the report of Mr. McLeod. There remained a balance of $32,000, which Mr. Scoles did not claim and which we claimed and which we were entitled to.


Francis Cochrane: I think there is only about $20,000 still in the Consolidated Revenue Fund Account.


Charles Marcil: The sums paid to the
labourers for board, material and supplies were paid on the report of Judge Langelier, who was appointed commissioner by the department and who ascertained those claims. If I understand the minister aright that $18,400 was paid on the report of the financial controller, who reversed the decision of Mr. McLeod. If not, how did he come to pay that sum?


Francis Cochrane: I said that the Auditor General would not issue a certificate to anyone but Mr. Scoles. If the hon. member
will come over to my office, I think I can convince him that Mr. Scoles was entitled to it. The evidence shows that to be the case.


Charles Marcil: Do I understand the minister to say that he has no intention at the present time to take over that railway?


Francis Cochrane: I said that the Government could not promise to take over a road in the present financial stringency. I moved a resolution to-day to have the short line branches taken over; and as soon as an opportunity occurs, we will proceed to carry out the promises of the right hon- the Prime Minister.


Charles Marcil: The minister knows that last year Mr. Plante was appointed a commissioner. He went down and put advertisements on all the church doors in the county of Bonaventure that he had been appointed by the Department of Railways to receive claims against those railways. The people produced their claims, and he made a report to the department that all the claims should he paid, including the claim of Mr. Scoles, and those of several contractors and those of the people who had built these railways, many of whom had never been paid for their right of way, etc. Many of them were never paid for the right of way. Of course, we expected, when this commissioner was appointed by the Department, that good faith would be kept and they would be paid. But hopes were dashed when they learned that the commissioner had been sent down only to ascertain the validity of certain claims, and when Mr. Newmombe reported that the Government was in no way responsible for the claims against the Baie des Chaleurs and Atlantic and Lake Superior. I suppose the minister will take these claims into consideration if he takes over these roads. They have been recognized as valid claims, and some of them liave been standing for more than twenty-five years.


Francis Cochrane: The commissioner was sent there to ascertain to whom money was due, and if the Department gets the money, it will see to it being distributed in a proper way.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: Has the
minister made inquiries into representations made respecting the claims of the municipalities of Pictou, Antigonish and Guysborough for payment for Eastern Extension land damages? Representations

were made last year in the absence of the minister, and the acting minister promised that during the recess he would take t.l e matter up with the minister on his return. I desire to ask what action was taken, if any.	i


Francis Cochrane: I have not taken any action in the matter.


William Chisholm: Has it been looked into?


Francis Cochrane: No. If the promise was made, I must ask pardon for not looking it up and learning what I was to do. But I will look it up during the coming recess, and hope to be able to give an answer next session.


George Perry Graham: There is one point in connection with the matter brought up by my hon. friend from Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil). That cheque for $18,400 for Mr. Scoles was secured by a member of Parliament and carried down and given to the representative of the company. I think now would be a good time, especially in view of the experience of the last few days, to suggest that members of Parliament should take notice that they are not supposed to mix up in these matters even to the extent of carrying cheques.	'


Francis Cochrane: It was not paid to a member.


George Perry Graham: Yes, a member of Parliament received it and carried it down to the solicitor of the company for Air. Snow. The solicitor for the company was the hon. gentleman who now occupies the position of Postmaster General (Mr Casgrain'. He wrote objecting to the cheque "being sent thiough a second hand. I am not saying that there was anything wrong in this case, but the fact is that the correspondence on the table shows that a member of Parliament came and got this cheque insteal uf it being sent to the legal representative of the company. And lha ; legal representative, now a member of the House and minister of the Crown, protested against the cheque being sent in this way instead of being sent direct to him as representing the applicant for the money. Without suggesting that there was anything wrong in this case, I think a member of the House should not do that, -and even if he is ready to do it, the department should not give him the cheque but should send it direct.


Francis Cochrane: The present Postmaster General (Mr. Casgrain) was not then a member of the House. He carried on corre-

spondence with the department, but he was out of the country when the cheque was issued, and we wanted to get a receipt or confirmation of the final settlement of the matter, and the member of Parliament only acted on behalf of Mr. Casgrain. But perhaps the observations of my hon. friend are right and members of Parliament should not take such part in matters of this kind.


George Perry Graham: I was not reflecting on the hon. gentleman who is now Postmaster General; he was not then a member of the House.


Francis Cochrane: He was acting for Mr. Scoles.


George Perry Graham: And that was quite proper. But what I objected to was that the cheque for Mr. Scoles, supposed to go to Mr. Casgrain as his representative, being handed over to a member of Parliament to be carried to Mr. Casgrain. I believe that even if a member of Parliament shows himself ready to take that position, the department should not hand him the cheque.


William Chisholm: With regard-to the line under construction from Sunny-brae to Mulgrave, can the minister give us any information as to the character of the line-its curves and gradings?


Francis Cochrane: If the hon. gentleman will leave that until after lunch I will have a map and report here which will give all that information.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I understand that the Department of Railways and Canals is operating the International Tailway, a railway in the province of New Brunswick, between Campbellton and St. Leonard's. Before this Government took hold of this line, the road had a very nice service. There was a nice little express running which gave satisfaction to the public, and also a freight, service. The freight traffic offering is practically the same as before, and as to the passenger traffic, I am informed that it has not decreased as much as on other lines of railway, for instance the Canadian Pacific railway or the Temiscouata. But since the Government took hold of the railway they have changed the time-table and have cancelled the express entirely and have given us what they call a mixed freight. I hope the Minister of Railways has travelled on mixed freights in his younger days.


Francis Cochrane: Lots of them, and glad of the chance.


Pius Michaud: I am sorry he has forgotten what that kind of travelling means. I have here the time-table that was formerly in operation; and also the time-table since the Government took hold. Formerly there were two trains a day leaving St. Leonard's. One of these left at 5 p.m. for Campbellton, connecting with the Bangor and Aroostook and Canadian Pacific railway. Then there was a mixed train leaving at 8.30 a.m. and oonnecting with the Transcontinental at Edmuiidston. This would give the best possible accommodation to people travelling from St. Leonard's to Campbellton or from points north on the New Brunswick railway. The express would leave Campbellton at 8.30 a.m., connecting with the Canadian Pacific railway at St. Leonard's, while the mixed train would leave at 8.00 a.m. and would connect with the Canadian Pacific railway. Now, what about the new timetable? One result of this time-table is that it takes two days to go from Edmundston to Campbellton, a distance of 145 miles. Under the present arrangement the people from any part of the St. John valley wishing to reach the northern part of the province are at a great disadvantage. According to the Intercolonial timetable, a mixed train-only one train a day^-leaves Campbelltown at 8.15 each morning, and is-due at St. Leonards at 4.10 p.m. This train never reaches St. Leonards until late in the evening. The train which leaves St. Leonards at 8.20 in the morning is supposed to reach Campbellton at 4.20 p.m. But few trains leave Campbelltown each day, either for Moncton or Riviere du Loup, and the public are seldom able to make proper connections at Campbellton by travelling on that mixed train. I understand that this line has been paying a good dividend in connection with its freight and passenger traffic. I believe that since the express train was cancelled, the public have been travelling on other lines, preferring to go a longer distance in order to reach Campbellton within a shorter time. I understand that the minister is going to take over the Temiscouata railway. I am in favour of branch lines being operated by the Government, but if the hon. minister operates the Temiscouata railway or any other branch line as he is operating the International line, the public will not approve of his purchasing branch lines, I was asked to bring this matter to the attention of the minister and of the Government, and I hope that this mixed train will soon be discontinued and the old service re-established. Not only should the minister give us a better
freight service, but we should have the express service which we had in the past. I think the minister will lose money by not giving a better passenger service. I understand that the minister took over the International railway because it was the best branch line railway in the province of New Brunswick. If the Government proceeds to buy other branch line railways, we want even better service than we have had in previous years from private companies. The public will have a right to expect from the Government a service at least as good as they have had in the past.
At one o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Civil Government-Department of Railways and Canals-Salaries, including chief engineer at $5,000; departmental solicitor at $4,000 ; Janet Garvie at $900, $175,662.50.


George Perry Graham: Why are these officials
particularly mentioned here, for instance the chief engineer?


Francis Cochrane: Mr. Bowden, the
chief engineer, is not entitled under the Act to receive any statutory increase as he is above the maximum of his class. He has been underpaid for a long time, and I think that he has the ability to command $5,000 any place.


George Perry Graham: I am not objecting to
that part of it. I suppose that under the Civil Service Act you had to put the item in this way.


Francis Cochrane: That is true.


George Perry Graham: Who is the departmental solicitor?


Francis Cochrane: Mr. Fairweather is
acting. Mr. Alward, the former solicitor, went down to be solicitor for the Intercolonial Railway at Moncton. Mr. Fair-weather, who was his assistant, is a very good man, he has been tried out and has been found worthy.


George Perry Graham: Mr. Alward is an exceptionally good man, and I am not sure that I would have been willing to allow the Intercolonial to steal him from the department.


Francis Cochrane: He is an exceptionally good man and we wanted a good man there.


George Perry Graham: Then there is Janet
Garvie at $900. She is named, I presume,

on account of the provisions of the Civil Service Act.


Francis Cochrane: Yes. Miss Garvie
was my stenographer in Toronto for the seven years I was in the Government there. She is an exceptional person. I never saw any one equal to her. In Toronto she knew the department perfectly, and if my secretary happened to be absent she could take his place. I know my hon. friend will agree that a good stenographer, one who can do more than mere stenographic work, who can act as secretary if necessary, is a very valuable person.


George Perry Graham: I am free to say that
when I was in the Ontario Government I had a lady as my private secretary. I do not find any fault with the minister for bringing Miss Garvie here if she is the kind of person he describes. I presume the Minister of Customs will have many of these special votes to overcome the provisions of the Civil Service Act.


Mr. J. D. REID:: With reference to the appointment of a stenographer, the great difficulty is that when you want a man, or even a lady who has had ten years experience, the Civil Service Commission will only give a certificate for the minimum initial salary of $500, and at that rate it is an impossibility to get either a man or a lady who has had wide experience. There has been great difficulty with the commission in getting certificates even in the case of very experienced stenographers. They have a list of candidates who have successfully passed the competitive examinations but who have not had actual experience. For that reason, in my department and others, we have had to give more than the minimum of $500 in this way. The Minister of Railways has stated that this to be a case where the Civil Service Commission would not give a certificate above the amount of $500 and the clerk was worth a larger amount. I have had a little experience, and I would say that the amount is properly in the Estimates.


George Perry Graham: I am not quarreling with that at all. I suppose that the Civil Service Commission really cannot do otherwise under the statute.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, they can.


George Perry Graham: They have so many who have qualified under the statute and they do not care to give a certificate which would look as if they were giving some one per-
[Mr. Graham J
son a preference over others who had passed the competitive examination very highly. I have always maintained that the minister's own private staff is different from the general staff of the department. I have gone to the height of saying that I think a minister ought to be allowed to select his personal staff, even in spite of the Civil Service Act. His own personal staff should be excepted from the provisions of the Act.


John Dowsley Reid: That is right.


George Perry Graham: In the first place, his
private secretary must not only be a good official in a way, but the minister must have personal confidence in him. A private secretary knows not only the minister's official business but he is his confidant in many respects, and a stenographer or person acting in the place of a private secretary should be plaqed in the same category. I have always maintained that the minister ought to be allowed to select his own personal staff. In the department the work is of a more routine character and not so confidential.
Civil Government-Department of Railways and Canals-Contingencies, $28,000.


Francis Cochrane: We pay the travelling expenses of the heads of the departments out of this vote. Formerly it was done out of some outside vote and that is the reason for this increase.
Intercolonial Railway, $8,128,250.


George Perry Graham: Would the minister give the committee a general statement as to the receipts, expenditures and business of the Intercolonial? It might save us asking a lot of questions.


Francis Cochrane: For the ten months ending January 31 there was, I am sorry to say, a deficit of $83,000. Hon. gentlemen know that the Government have urged manufacturers to keep as many men employed as possible in these times, and we ourselves have followed the same -policy on the Intercolonial. If we had followed the example of other railways, such as the Canadian Pacific railway we could have let go 3,000 men and still carried on the business efficiently, but we endeavoured to keep every permanent man employed during the winter months. There has been a decrease in operating expenses of over $200,000, and a decrease of $1,500,000 in the receipts for the ten months. W7e got a Governor General's warrant for operating the two branch lines we .took over about the first of August.

Mr. GRA.HAM: That is the International?


Francis Cochrane: And the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway. I think there never was a time in the history of the Intercolonial when we had so many cars and engines in a fully repaired state as at present. There has been so little work for the men to do that we have kept the shops continually going, and we have now thirty engines fully repaired, but nothing for them to do. Our cars are in the same position. We have made quite a number of cars, etc., in order to keep the men goinsr.


George Perry Graham: That is at Moncton?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


George Perry Graham: How is the ferry scheme with Prince Edward Island progressing?


Francis Cochrane: 
Mr. MACDONALD:: Does the minister expect to operate this car ferry during the winter months?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


William John Macdonald: The ice conditions will not prevent it?


Francis Cochrane: The contract stipulates that they must operate the ferry at the rate of at least half a mile an hour in the worst, ice conditions.


Mr. CARVELL:: Has there been any change in the agreement made by the Intercolonial and the St. John and Quebec Railway Company since I last asked this *question in the House some four or five weeks ago? I can tell my hon. friend that I have heard from his own officers that the business development along that' line has been simply astonishing, more than they ever anticipated. Under the original agree-93
ment forty per cent of the earnings of this road were to go to the province of New Brunswick to help pay the enormous interest, and we feel that we are entitled todt.


Francis Cochrane: We propose to enter into an agreement covering that portion of the road on the first of April.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That will be the whole road from Gagetown to Centreville?


Francis Cochrane: Strictly speaking,
Gagetown would not come in under the Act, but there will be a service there Whatever the Act entitles us to do we will carry out fully.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am sorry indeed to hear that the minister is not going to take in Gagetown. It is not a question whether the Intercolonial is going to make money on the Gagetown section; I assume they are not, and I think that is a correct assumption. The province of New Brunswick is paying the interest on the money which built that Gagetown section.


Francis Cochrane: They have not built the road.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Surely my hon. friend is not going to hide behind a quibble of that kind. They have built the road for thirty miles from Fredericton down to Gagetown, the shire town of the county of Queen's, and the only important town in that part of the province. It is true that the legislation says that the section shall be 35 miles long.


Francis Cochrane: Forty.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well they have built
35 miles. It is 35 or 36 miles to Gagetown and the Statute says that the road shall be 40 miles long. It would be absolute nonsense to build the railway the other 4 or 5 miles down the country because Gagetown is the natural stopping place until the road is finished to St. John. It is pretty small business on the part of the Intercolonial railway-I am not casting any personal reflection upon the minister-to get behind a little technicality like that and to say that because you have not built the road 5 miles down the country beyond Gagetown we will not take over the road from Fredericton to Gagetown. If the minister could realize the financial burden which the province of New Brunswick is bearing as a direct result of the contract which he made with the province, he would take over the road and stand by his contract to the letter.


Francis Cochrane: So I am.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: He should stand by it in the spirit as well as in the letter and take over the road. While possibly the traffic on the road from Fredericton to Gagetown would not be as great as it is from Fredericton North, I think that if he gave something like a decent service instead of a train once a week he would find that there was quite a business to be done there. You must give people the accommodation before you can expect the business. The minister had no faith in the upper end and it was only after a good deal of persistent plugging by both his friends and his opponents that he would consent to give us the service that he has given us. I am satisfied that if he expresses his honest conviction, he will say that he is surprised at the amount of business that was done in the last three months. If he will give them this service to Gagetown and carry this traffic I am satisfied that the results will surprise him. I think the minister could do no-I was going to say nobler-thing than to take over that road and operate it to Gagetown and even if he does lose a little bit of money on that branch it will give the province of New Brunswick the amount of money they are entitled to and which they require to pay the interest on the bonds.


Francis Cochrane: There is a good deal of traffic between Fredericton and Centreville but it is only at certain times of the year when the products of the farm are going out.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Doubting Thomas again.


Francis Cochrane: Well, I will be delighted if I am wrong if that will be any help to my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I know you are wrong.


Francis Cochrane: I think any one will say that in an agricultural country the time when the products of the farm are shipped out is the time when a railway carrying those products may make a little money. But there will be a lean period. If there was an outlet for this road, if we could get into St. John and get connections in that way, there would not be the same difficulty. I am afraid that with the stringency in the money market they will not be able to get into St. John this year. I think I am living up to the spirit as well as the letter of the Act; I want to anyway. I will not promise to-day that I will take over the thirty miles down to Gagetown, but I will give a service.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am glad my hon. friend has some little faith. I can assure him that if he will come down and interview his officials it will confirm his faith.


Francis Cochrane: I will do so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I dare say there will be lean periods, but judging by the information that I have from some of my hon. friend's own ^officials, who know more about the business than I do, these lean periods will be of short duration. I can tell the minister that the officials 

not the officials at Moncton, but the men who are really operating the road and know the conditions-have no doubt that there will be a splendid profit-on that road during the whole year.


Francis Cochrane: I hope there will be.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have a great deal more faith than my hon. friend has. I am satisfied that if he will look it over he will have as much faith as I have.


Francis Cochrane: I hope to this year.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I hope he will. I have extended that invitation to my hon. friend a good many times and I am satisfied that if he goes down over that branch and makes himself acquainted with the possibilities around Gagetown he will have more faith than he has to-day. He talks about the stringency in the money market. I think I pointed out to him once before, and I will remind him again, that it is not a question of the stringency of the money market. The railway company sold their bonds for the construction of this road three years ago and they claim that they have the money on hand. If they have not the money on hand somebody has blundered, and blundered very seriously. It is not a question of the stringency of the money market; it is a question of whether or not the friends of the minister who got the money have properly conserved it. If they have not they should be brought to account and I think the minister should go after these people and find out whether they have been recreant to the trust reposed in them. If they have not they should be dealt with, and dealt with seriously.


Francis Cochrane: The people will attend to that and not I.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They will if they get the opportunity. There is one other question that I would like to call to the attention of the minister. Some four or five weeks ago I brought up in this House a professional matter. I complained very bitterly of the

treatment a client of mine, Mrs. Lynch, whose land had been expropriated nearly two years ago, had received at the hands of the minister, and I got his solemn promise that he would immediately have expropriation proceedings started. I have never known the minister to go back on his word, and I am not going to say now that he has done so. It may perhaps be a lapse of memory


Francis Cochrane: Instructions have been given.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend told me that a long time ago.


Francis Cochrane: You will soon find that the instructions have been carried out. My hon. friend is a lawyer and he knows how long it takes lawyers to get ready. I have done my part and I cannot do more. I will prod them up again.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can tell my hon. friend as a lawyer that it just takes about one hour to start these proceedings. It is the simplest little document imaginable; it is only a page and a half, the document is printed and all you have to do is to fill in the names of the parties and start the suit. It is no use talking about the time lawyers take. The fault must be in some way with the minister's department. Now that I have his pledge that he is going to prod them up again I will drop that.
There is a business concern in Fredericton whose land has been taken very much along the same lines as that of Mrs. Lynch and for the same purpose-to force the road through Fredericton. I am speaking of the firm of Palmer, McLellan and Company, the boot and shoe concern. They complain very bitterly of the same treatment as that which has been accorded to Mrs. Lynch. Their land has been taken and they can get no satisfaction; nobody will talk with them or settle with them. I am not speaking as the solicitor for these people but I am speaking as a representative of that portion of Canada. It is not in my own constituency butt I'know the location well. It is just as important that he start expropriation proceedings, or take some other means of settling the damages with this company as that he should take proceedings in the case of Mrs. Lynch. Have I the minister's promise that he will start proceedings and have this matter settled as well?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am very glad of it.


William John Macdonald: There were two returns that I asked the minister to bring down and they should have been brought down by this time.


Francis Cochrane: What were they?


William John Macdonald: There was one return with reference to the case of a man named Arbuckle. The returns are not voluminous. There are three of them relating to his department. I do not see why there should be any delay about them. We ought to have them before the Estimates are gone on with.


Francis Cochrane: I will look into it at once and let my hon. friend know.


Mr. COPP:: I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Railways to a matter brought to my attention recently in a letter I received regarding an accident that happened at the Main street crossing in the city of Moncton, on the 14th of September, 1912, when Mrs. O'Rourke was killed by a shunting engine. The matter was drawn to the attention of the department at that time, and some correspondence took place between the department and Mr. O'Rourke, who asked for some compensation, claiming that the accident was due very largely to the shunting operations which had been going on in Moncton for a number of years. I am glad to know that such accidents will be a thing of the past, as a subway is at the present time being constructed _ at the Main street crossing. The application made to the Department of Railways was given consideration. While I believe the department takes the ground that it is under no legal liability in regard to the death of Mrs. O'Rourke, yet I understand it has, if not admitted that it is willing to give some compensation, at least take the matter into favourable consideration. From some correspondence I have seen, I understand Mr. O'Rourke was led to believe that some compensation would be paid. Has the minister given the matter his attention, and has he come to any conclusion?


Francis Cochrane: The matter was
brought to my attention along with the facts in regard to it. The gates were down, and this woman unfortunately went under them and over the track and was killed.
I do not think it is a proper case for compensation. We had done our part in closing the gates. If the gates had not been down, we would have been guilty; but in this case I did not think we were.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My information is that the
gates were changed the day after the accident. I have sent for further information in regard to the matter. I have not received it yet, although I expect it daily. That information may be on file in the minister's office, and I may be able to see it there. The letter I hold in my hand says,
" We believe the position of the gates was changed the day after the killing.


Francis Cochrane: The gates were down, and that fact was notice to Mrs. O'Rourke that a train was coming. I have no information about the gates being changed. The gates were closed, and Mr3. O'Rourke took her life in her own hands when she went under them and crossed the tracks.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am not in a position to
argue the matter, because I have not all the information. The only information I have is general information that the gates were changed the day after the accident.
I have in my hand what purports to be a copy of a letter written by Mr. Gutelius, General Manager of the Intercolonial, to Mr. O'Rourke, under date of July 22, 1914. I do not know what authority that gentleman had for writing this letter or for holding out any inducement to Mr. O'Rourke that his application for compensation was being favourably considered by the Government, but this is the letter:
Your letter July 16, relative to compensation tor the loss of your wife by being struck by a shunting engine on the Main street crossing, Moncton, on September, 14, 1912.
I have already advised you, I think, that there is no legal liability on the part of the railway in connection with the accident; but in view of your circumstances I recommended a compassionate allowance, unfortunately such recommendation was not received by the department at Ottawa in sufficient time to have it put in the Estimates voted by Parliament for this year. However, the matter will have to remain in abeyance to be brought up for consideration at the next meeting of Parliament.
(Sgd.) F. P. Gutelius.
I presume this matter was brought to the attention of the Government by my predecessor, the late Mr. Emmerson. It has now been referred to me. Surely the General Manager of the Intercolonial must have thought there was some good reason that [DOT]could be advanced, and that was advanced, for a compassionate allowance being made to Mr. O'Rourke, or he would not have written that letter. While a definite promise is not given, the words of that letter can convey no other meaning to Mr. O'Rourke than that, if he waited until next year he 
would be allowed some compensation for the death of his wife, under those conditions. Mr. Gutelius would not have made that admission unless there was some circumstance that would lead him to believe that the Government would be at least morally responsible, and that it should give some compensation to Mr. O'Rourke for this very distressing accident. I do not know whether it is the financial condition of this man of which Mr. Gutelius speaks; but under the circumstances, and seeing that this inducement was held out by the General Manager of the Intercolonial, I hope that the minister will see his way clear, if the circumstances are as I am informed they are, to give this man, who is poor and who has a family to maintain some reasonable compensation for the loss of his wife. My hon. friend says-and possibly he may be right from a legal standpoint- that the gates were down and that this woman went under ithe gates or around them; but the Minister of Railways must not forget that that crossing for years has been a menace to the lives of the people of the city of Moncton. Considering all ithe circumstances, I think it is a very strong case for the consideration of my hon. friend the Minister of Railways.


Francis Cochrane: On what ground would you advise giving the compensation.


George Perry Graham: Compassionate allowance.


Arthur Bliss Copp: As suggested by the General Manager of the Intercolonial, some compassionate allowance should be given to Mr. O'Rourke. I am not standing here to-day as solicitor for the Intercolonial to advise the hon. Minister of Railways from a legal standpoint; but, speaking from my knowledge of the situation, I would say that, whatever compensation or compassionate allowance is given to Mr. O'Rourke by the Minister of Railways, no criticism nor objection will be offered by my constituents or by any hon. member in the House.


Francis Cochrane: When the hon. member gets the further information for which he is waiting, I shall be very glad to discuss the matter with him; but it is a dangerous precedent to establish, to give compensation when a person deliberately goes on a railway line that is protected, and gets killed.
Intercolonial Railway-Amherst-Additional facilities, $16,000.


George Perry Graham: What has been done at Amherst?


Francis Cochrane: Additional tracks necessary to provide for increased business at that point, as voted in 1914-15. The money was not expended last year.


George Perry Graham: What struck me is the fact that the money, though voted, had not been expended. Is the minister going to expend it this year ?


Francis Cochrane: I hope so.


George Perry Graham: It seems a pity to vote it when we are so hard up if we do not intend to spend it.


Francis Cochrane: I know; but if things improve we ought to have the money to expend. The improvements are absolutely necessary there for the accommodation of the traffic.


William John Macdonald: What action does the minister propose to take in regard to the construction of a bridge across Pictou harbour ? I understand the matter has been under investigation.


Francis Cochrane: It is, but I am sorry to say the investigation has proved the work a difficult one. The mud is very deep. We have not come to a conclusion in reference to this work. I hope we shall come to a conclusion by next session, but we aTe not providing any money for it [DOT]this session.


William John Macdonald: I know it is not the minister's fault. The engineers he sent there last year to take the soundings, instead of working as they should have done on the ice, delayed and fooled along with the work, and did not get their soundings until after the ice had gone out, when the work could not be done with as great perfection as when the ice was there. There is grave local complaint among friends of the hon. gentleman as to the way the engineers dealt with the question.


Francis Cochrane: This winter ?


William John Macdonald: No, last winter. This winter they were there only a day or two, and were said to be verifying some examination they had made before.


Francis Cochrane: I will make a note of the matter.


William John Macdonald: I understand the
position to be that the minister does not intend to do anything in the way of construction this year?


Francis Cochrane: No.


William John Macdonald: Another matter to
which I wish to refer is the case of Mrs.
Higgins, who was injured on the 23rd of August, 1914, at Ferrona station. I would ask the minister to have inquiry made. It is a case of the train starting too quickly before this old lady could alight. From the information given me there is great merit in the case, and it is desirable, where a railway is in fault, and cannot show negligence on the part of the person injured, that it should settle with the party.


Francis Cochrane: I will take a note of it.


William John Macdonald: I understand the
minister to say with reference to the plans he has brought down, that the line of railway he proposes to construct would run from Sunnybrae through Guysborough county and the town of Guysborough to Mulgrave. The minister showned me the plan and stated that he proposed going by East River, St. Alary's. I think he is taking the right course. He will go through a settled country which is very fertile and where the conditions are very good, indeed. I have always contended for that route when my hon. friend the former Minister of Railways (Air. Graham) placed in the Estimates, as he did, a vote of $1,000,000 for the purpose of constructing that road. I pressed upon him in the strongest possible way the desirability of following this route which the present minister tells me he has adopted, going through the garden of Eden and East River, St. Mary's section. I hope that, now that he has come round to the policy of his predecessor in constructing this road, though there has been a delay of some three or four years in the adopting of it- he will go on with the construction of the railway.


Francis Cochrane: To be fair, was there
not a little dispute then as to the way it should go? No definite route was decided upon, I think.


Mr.   AIACDONALD@: The whole was decided upon excepting with regard to the disputed point, for which I contended and which, as the minister will recall, I have frequently supported in the House since he became minister. Do I understand that the minister intends to proceed immediately to construct?


Francis Cochrane: As soon as we can get ready.


William John Macdonald: What effect will this have upon the portion of the line from New Glasgow to Alulgrave?


Francis Cochrane: There is a portion of that line which had a rather heavy track, coming up from the ferry, on which the grades will be better. Going east the grades will be .6 per cent, and going the other way, .5 per cent.


John Howard Sinclair: And what are the grades on the other line?


Francis Cochrane: I have not the figures, but I think they run over 1 per cent.


William John Macdonald: So the minister expects they will be able to make better time?


Francis Cochrane: No doubt about it. The hon. gentleman knows the state of the old road. With the improvements in the grades an engine will do nearly one-third more.


William John Macdonald: In spite of the additional distance?


Francis Cochrane: It is only a short distance. This line is only 88 miles, and the hon. gentleman knows the distance over the other.


William John Macdonald: So that the minister anticipates that when this road is constructed it will be a great highway for the traffic coming through from Cape Breton.


Francis Cochrane: I think it will be a great improvement on the present route.


William Chisholm: If I understand the minister's proposition, the line from Sunnybrae to Port Mulgrave will be the main line of the Intercolonial railway?


Francis Cochrane: I said it would carry heavy traffic; but we will have to maintain the other line.


William Chisholm: The minister points out that, as the grades will be lighter on the new line, the heavy traffic will necessarily go over that line. The result will be that the present line from New Glasgow to Mulgrave running through Antigonish will be merely a side line and only local traffic will be done on it. Has the minister looked into the facts to ascertain whether or not the present line could be improved, the grades reduced and the railway generally straightened out to enable it to carry as heavy traffic as the proposed new line? Three years ago there was a petition from Harbour au Bouche asking that the line be diverted from Lin wood, running through Cape Jack and the village of Havre Boucher on to Mulgrave, instead of as now. This would get rid of the heavy grade

between Big Tracadie and Mulgrave. I suppose the minister will say now, as he has said on previous occasions, that he is not responsible for the assurances of alleged agents or Tory emissaries who claim to have authority from him, but I may say that assurances were given that this diversion was going to be made. I see now that the minister does not propose doing that; he proposes that the general traffic shall cease to be carried through the county of Antigonish-through the districts of Harbour au Bouche, Linwood, Tracadie, Pom-quet, Heatherton, South River, James River-and that the people shall be served by a mere side line. I am sure that this will be a great source of disappointment to the people of that district. I hope that before the minister commits himself to the policy which he proposes, he will look into the matter more carefully. Of course, I do not imagine that he is going on with the construction of this line just now; there are certain reasons, perhaps, why this item should appear in the Estimates.


Francis Cochrane: Is it not a proper line to build?


William Chisholm: I am quite in sympathy with the construction of the line through Guysborough county, but I am not in sympathy with the degrading of that portion of the road which runs through the county which *t have the honour to represent. the Conservative party are not living up to their pledges-that, of course, will surprise them-because instead of improving the road, as they promised to do; instead of furnishing better accommodations, assurance of which they gave the people of the eastern portion of Antigonish county, they are putting them off with a side line. Guysborough is the only county in the whole province that has not had railway accommodations. The Intercolonial railway runs through the northern part of Nova Scotia; in the southern part of the province there is the Halifax and Southwestern. After the' construction of the Halifax and Eastern line was got under way, every county in the province with the exception of Guysborough and possibly Victoria, had been provided with railway transportation facilities. I approve, therefore, of the building of a line through Guysborough county; with that proposal I find absolutely no fault, although I Jo not know whether the route proposed is the most feasible. What I do find fault with, however, is that the Government proposes to put the people in that section of the country to which

I have referred on a side line, and the result will be that that portion of the line will not receive the attention that it otherwise would receive.


Francis Cochrane: What I did say was that probably the heavy traffic would go over the new line on account of the grades being better.


William Chisholm: 
Mr. McCURDY:: The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) has experience of this transportation problem, and in view of the unfavourable results anticipated by the hon. member from Antigonish, I am sure that the opinion of the hon. member for Guysborough would be heard with pleasure by the committee.


William Chisholm: Let us hear your
opinion first.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: My opinion is that the proposed line would be in the way of an improvement. The first question to be considered by the Government in planning a road of this kind is the public interest;
the second, the interest of the district immediately served locally.


William Chisholm: My hon.friend says
the proposed road would be in the way of an improvement. Perhaps it would, if on the new road you have six-tenths and five-tenths grades as against one per cent and upwards on the old road. But the hon. gentleman does not meet the point: can the present road be put in proper condition?


Francis Cochrane: Any road can, if you spend enough money.


William Chisholm: Has the minister any estimate of what it would cost to put the road in good condition for heavy freight?


Francis Cochrane: No.


William Chisholm: Has he ascertained
whether the present road could be put in just as good condition as the present line through Guysborough county? If he has not, why does he give the assurance now that the heavy traffic is going to go through Guysborough county?


Francis Cochrane: I think I was understood by the members of the committee when I said that the grades on the proposed line will be lower than those on the present line; naturally the heavy traffic would go on the line having the lightest grades. My hon. friend knows as well as I know that you can put any grade you like on a road if you have enough money, but the operation might come to be too expensive.


William Chisholm: Why has not the
minister obtained an estimate of what it would cost to put the present road in reasonably good condition for the carrying of heavy freight?


Francis Cochrane: Demands have been
made every session for the road which we are proposing to build. We have spent a good deal of time in selecting the best possible route, because, as I have often stated, a mistake is often made in spending too little money on surveys, and a thorough survey results in the securing of better grades. The necessity for reducing the grades on the other line has not arrived. In the future it may be necessary to look into the point raised by my hon. friend with regard to cutting down the grades, but that necessity has not yet arisen; it is in the interests of the province and of the whole country that we proceed with this

new line. Later, as I have said, the question brought up by my hon. friend might be considered.


John Howard Sinclair: Why did the minister
select the route down the East river of Pictou instead of the West river of St. Mary's?


Francis Cochrane: Simply because the
route which we have chosen runs through a productive country; on the other side it is barren.


John Howard Sinclair: I do not think my
hon. friend is well posted in regard to that matter. There is a stretch of forest between the two valleys.


Francis Cochrane: Is there a settlement on that side ?


John Howard Sinclair: If the minister calls the forest barren, there may be some truth in that, but when you reach the St. Mary valley at the West river you strike very fine farming country. I am not sure it is altogether as weld cultivated as east of St. Mary; there may be an advantage in that respect, but it is not barren by any means. There is a fertile valley running down the West river of the St. Mary, capable of high cultivation. I do not think that the minister would have made .any mistake in taking the route down the West river. I was wondering if any other reason had been placed before the minister by his engineers for selecting that route.


Francis Cochrane: No.


John Howard Sinclair: Apart from the question of route I am delighted with the announcement that the minister has made in this matter. This question has given me a great deal of concern all through my public life. For more than twenty years I have taken a very deep interest in railway communications in my native county, and I was very much pleased some four years ago to have the late Government take the matter up and decide to embark on the building of branch lines, and this one in particular. It was very gratifying to me that $1,000,000 was placed in the Estimates in 1911 to build a road into my constituency, and a decided step was taken at the time by purchasing the Sunnybrae branch at a cost of $100,000. The branch was conveyed to the Government by the Nova Scotia Steel Company; the money was paid and the deed delivered, I understand, prior to this Government coming into power. A contract was made for the con-
struction of a part of the line and a deposit of money made by the contractor. Notice was also given for the expropriation of a right of way. After my hon. friend accepted the portfolio of railways he saw fit to cancel the vote of $1,000,000, and he also saw fit to cancel the contract made with the company, and gave notice to the proprietors of the land that the expropriation of a right of way would not now go on. This delayed all progress for four years. I regret now that the right of way was interfered with, because it will now delay construction. I know that my hon. friend from Queens-Shelburne (Mr. McCurdy) wants me to say if I am satisfied with the present route. I am so much pleased to have any kind of a railroad built into my constituency that I shall heartily support the minister's proposals. I may say, however, that the proposal of the lalte Government was quite satisfactory to me and to my constituents, and it did not involve any change in the position of the main line which for many years has been the main artery between Cape Breton and Halifax. The former proposal was to build a branch line from Ferrona, in the county of Pictou, to Guysborough, which as my hon. friend knows, is a . seaport, with a branch from the cross roads of Country Harbour to the deep waters of Country Harbour. That proposal in the meantime was very satisfactory to my constituents in the county of Guysborough. They did not expect anything more than that at the time, and it was not proposed that any change should be made in the main line or the traffic on the main line. I would be glad if the minister were in a position to push forward the proposal of the late Government. That would be quite satisfactory to me. I wish to get all the railway accommodation I can for my constituency, but at the same time the member for Queens-Shelburne will understand that the old proposal was accepted by my constituents and myself and was satisfactory in every way. It did not interfere	in any way
with the rights or future prospects of the	present line	between	New
Glasgow and the strait of Canso. I notice that on the map the minister has a dotted line from Guysborough to Canso. I would like to know what his proposal is in regard to that line. I have no doubt that the minister is aware that there are great possibilities of traffic at Canso, that there is perhaps no other point in eastern Nova Scotia where the fish traffic could be de-

veloped to such an extent. If you look at the map you will see that it juts out into the Atlantic adjacent to the very best fishing ground that we have on the coast of America. You will also see that the fishing banks are directly outside of Canso and around it and that it is the most convenient place for fishing vessels to call and transship their cargoes. If we had a railway from Ferrona direct to Canso where the fresh fish could be shipped and put absolutely fresh aboard refrigerator cars bound for western points, I have no doubt it would, to a large extent, revolutionize the fish traffic in this country and give good haddock and codfish to the people not only of this province but of the West as well. The growth of the traffic has proven very satisfactory under the present accommodation. Not very many years ago there was only a boat three times a week connecting with the Intercolonial railway at Mulgrave, but under the late Administration a daily boat was put on the line and it is furnishing to a limited extent accommodation for fish traffic. On the establishment of a daily boat the fish traffic of Canso sprang to the front and it is now one of the most profitable branches of traffic from eastern Nova Scotia to the West on the present lind of the Intercolonial. It could be enormously increased by giving direct accommodation to Canso. As my hon. friend has the reputation of doing big things, might I suggest to him that instead of giving us half an apple now he give us a whole one and project the line right through to Canso?


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: I am sure the committee has listened with interest to the remarks of my hon. friend from Guysborough, even though they have something of a local flavour. He did not, however, correctly divine the thought in my mind. I like to see credit for public improvements go where credit is due. What I wanted to ask was the date when the purchase of the Bunny-brae road was arranged for by the late Government and when payment was made, and whether he had any knowledge of the surveys which would necessarily precede that purchase.


John Howard Sinclair: I think the negotiations were going on while Parliament was in session during the winter of 1911, and that the purchase was made in the following spring, but I cannot give the exact date. As to the other question, the survey was completed from Guysborough to Sunnybrae, but there was a difference of opinion whether the road should go down the eastern or the
western branch of the St. Mary's river. The late Government decided to divide the contract inter two and they advertised for tenders for constructing the eastern end of the road from Melrose, I think, to Guysborough with a branch to the deep waters of Country Harbour. The western end was not let because the question whether to go down the east or the west St. Mary's river had not been decided.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: Perhaps the minister can tell when the payment was made for the Sunnybrae road?.


Francis Cochrane: On the 20tli September, 1911.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: The deathbed act of a dying government.


Mr. McKENZIE:: There are three sections of railways in Nova Scotia that have been somewhat travelling together for the last few years. They are the Guysborohgh road, which has been receiving some attention here to-day, the Dean Settlement and Dartmouth road, and a section of road in the county of Victoria, which is part of the riding I have the honour to represent. Ever since I have been in the House one of my principal objects has been to obtain better railway accommodation for the county of Victoria, which at present is almost absolutely void of railway facilities. We should have no railway at all if it were not that the Intercolonial railway, by sheer necessity, touches the western end of our county. It is like the old story that to get to a certain district you must needs go through Samaria, not because of any profit there is to Samaria, but simply because you have to go through there to get to some other place. Similarly the Intercolonial to get to Sydney, has to skirt the western end of Victoria county, and that is all the railway accommodation we have. The minister is well aware that in 1911 the projects in those three places were about to be materialized and the contracts let. I understand that a contract was given in Halifax, and in Guysborough, but at any rate the tenders were in, whether they had been accepted or not, when the change of Government took place. The Dean Settlement and Dartmouth railway has been proceeded with, but the Guysborough and the Victoria roads have for the time being been abandoned. I am pleased that the minister has announced to-day that at all events a second step is to be taken in carrying forward the railway policy of the former Government in the eastern part of Nova

Scotia, and that the Government is going to provide the railway facilities so long sought for and so persistently fought for by the hon. gentleman who to-day represents that county. Although there was a change of Government, I myself did not let up upon the proposition of a railway in the county I represent, and last year I moved a resolution in this House, as appears at page 540 of the Votes and Proceedings of the House. The resolution read :
That, in the opinion of this House, the time has arrived for the extension of the Intercolonial railway of Canada into the nonrailway sections of the Maritime Provinces within reasonable range of the said railway.
And the question being put on the said motion, it was agreed to.
That resolution of mine was accepted by the minister and by the Government, and I have no doubt that the vote which the minister says will be found in the Supplementary Estimates is to further implement the policy of the former Government, and to implement this resolution of mine which was accepted on the 16th March, 1914. My purpose in rising is to ask whether the minister, in providing for the extension of the road into Guysborough, has made the same provision for the extension of the railway into the county I have the honour to represent.


Francis Cochrane: I am sorry to say I have not. We have not had the surveys checked up, and we have not a vote this year for such a road.


William Chisholm: The minister last year had a party of engineers surveying from Mulgrave to New Glasgow along the present line of railway, about the same time that Guysborough county was being surveyed. They also surveyed along the South River valley from South River station, on the Intercolonial, to Cross Roads, Country Harbour, where this new line was proposed to be run. I am sure the minister must have some report from his engineers, and some sort of estimate from them as to what it would cost to reduce the grades on the present line of railway. There must also be some report in the department on the proposed branch line from Cross Roads, Country Harbour, to South River. That road has been advo- ' cated by me ever since I have been in the House. There would be no engineering difficulties in building the road, and it would run through a well-populated, magnificent agricultural section that is badly in need of railway accommodation. I do not want the minister to think that I am for a

moment suggesting opposition to the road running through Guysborough. What I am complaining about is that the minister, when his attention was called to the fact that it was necessary on account of the grades of the Intercolonial railway to find another route, did not make an effort to get the grades on the Intercolonial railway reduced. If he had done that, gone on witli his proposed road from Sunnybrae to the strait of Canso, and built a branch line from South river to Cross Roads, Country Harbour, that section of the country would have been fairly well accommodated for tile present with railways. Later on, of course, a branch would have been required to Canso, and some other branch lines.


Francis Cochrane: I have sent out to see whether there is any information in the department with reference to it. If the hon. gentleman will just let his question stand for a while, I will give him later what information we have.


Mr. CARROLL:: I would like to ask the
minister a question with reference to the surveys which were made last year between Sydney and St. Peter's. What is the situation there? There is a company road operated from Point Tupper to St. Peter's. Is it the intention of the minister to put anything in his Estimates for a road from Sydney to St. Peter's.


Francis Cochrane: We had a survey made with the view of reducing the grades on the main line and also a survey made from Mulgrave down by St. Peter's canal. I am sorry that the surveys do not prove as good down by way of St. Peter's as we expected. The road would cost considerably more than we thought it would in the first place. Then it was found that to get a .06 grade on the main line it would cost $58,000 per mile. The question has not been settled and, without saying positively, the conclusion that we shall likely come to will be to put in heavier bridges. If you put on heavier rolling stock you must have heavier bridges.


William F. Carroll: On the main line?


Francis Cochrane: On the main line. I
think the engineers are pretty nearly prepared to recommend that we put in heavier bridges. If we built another line we would have to keep this line open as well, and it is believed that it would be more economical to put in heavier bridges on the main line and put on heavier rolling stock.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Could the minister give me any information in regard to

the proposed line from Orangedale on the Intercolonial to Cheticamp?


Francis Cochrane: An engineer went over the line this summer, but unfortunately I have not his report with me. I will be able to answer my hon. friend's question before the Estimates are through.


William F. Carroll: When does the contract with Mr. Gutelius as manager of the Intercolonial railway expire?


Francis Cochrane: He was engaged first
for two or three years-I think three years- and his engagement continues as long as he and the Government work together.


William F. Carroll: Has the first three years' engagement run out?


Francis Cochrane: I think it will run out in May, or in three years from the time he started. I do not remember the date he started.


William F. Carroll: Is the minister going to renew the contract?


Francis Cochrane: We are perfectly satisfied with him.


William F. Carroll: I have taken the ground in this House before, and I am taking it again, that Mr. Gutelius is not giving service on the Intercolonial railway commensurate with the salary he is receiving. While the minister is satisfied with him as a railway man-and I have no doubt in the world that he is a good railway man- the people of the Maritime Provinces are not satisfied. I am in good company in this opinion because I am in the company of the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield). I have always taken the stand before I came to this House, and I have done so since I came to this House, that there are men in the employ of the Intercolonial railway who are as well fitted to be placed in the position of general manager of the road as any importations which can be made by this or any other Government. I took that position two years ago. I believe that in the interest of the Intercolonial railway men who have grown up in its employment, bright, brainy men, who know the conditions of the road and who know the people that the road has to serve, should be given the opportunity of advancement to high positions when the time for opening these high offices comes. Men have grown up on the Intercolonial who have been obliged to leave that railway because they could not get the promotion which
they were entitled to. They have gone to other railways, to the Canadian Pacific railway and the Grand Trunk railway, and have made good there. I am not blaming the present Minister of Railways and Canals. I think the last Government sinned along the same lines, but not so grievously as has this Government. The Truro Citizen, which is the personal organ, I understand, of the hon. member for Colchester, has taken this matter up. While the Truro Citizen is spreading broadcast through the Maritime Provinces that this Government is not doing the proper thing by the Intercolonial railway, or by the Intercolonial railway men, it seems rather strange that the gentleman whose personal organ this is would not take this matter up in the House. It is all very well for him, and for his paper, to criticise the Minister of Railways in a publication which the minister perhaps never sees. I am going to read a few things that appear in this paper, and here is one of them:
Instead of removing Intercolonial Railway Company grievances rampant in 1911, the Government, if anything, has increased them, Instead of putting a stop to importing officials there has been an increase in imports. Of the old and tried officials in office in 1911, but three remain, so far as I can learn, viz., L. B. Archibald, superintendent of pullman, dining and parlor car service; D. A. Storey, district freight agent, and Owen Cameron, claims agent. All the others have been retired, including David Pottinger, and men imported to take their places; and In doing so I have no hesitation in saying that there was some rank injustice practised, injustice to men who entered the ranks as boys and spent years in trying to get to first positions. The present system has entirely killed merit on the Intercolonial railway. It does not come. The merit man finds himself supplanted by an importation.
Some may say we have not the so-called natives capable of filling important positions. Rot of the worst kind. Not long since there was published in these columns a list of young men who left the Intercolonial Railway Company, or were driven out, who went west and rapidly rose to first positions on company roads. Is there any person verdant enough to believe that these young men exhausted our supply of brainy, of capable men? It was only the other day that Grant Hall, driven from the Intercolonial Railway Company, went to a very important position in the service of the Canadian Pacific railway.
Now if brains, ability, count with western company roads, and they do, why do those roads, which always pay big salaries for the right men, let clever men go to join the Intercolonial Railway Company? If the men who have been imported for the Intercolonial Railway Company were such wonders, how came it that the company roads let them go? I am not attacking the ability of the so-called imported officials, not at all, I believe they are


Francis Cochrane: Did you go?


William F. Carroll: I would really like to have the assistance of my hon. friend for Colchester in this matter. I rather think his words and his opinions would have more effect than mine would, if he were to tell the minister point-blank what he thinks about the present management of the Intercolonial.	.

There is another long article in this paper under a date subsequent to that of the article from which I have read, in which he sets forth the reasons why the Intercolonial was built. He says that the >ninister ,does tnot understand thte constitutional principles that surround the Intercolonial railway. He tells the minister that that road was built for the people, an(l that it was not intended that the Intercolonial should be made a railway for the payment of surpluses. He is a very strong party man and is in favour of the present Government along other lines; but he thinks that the Minister of Railways, being from Ontario, does not really understand the Intercolonial. I am not going to take such a local stand as that. I believe the Minister of Railways understands perfectly well the intention of the builders of the Intercolonial, and the intention of the people who had to do with Confederation in this country in regard to the Intercolonial. I am not going into the history of the Intercolonial, nor of the various discussions that took place at Confederation on behalf of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick as to the future conditions which should surround the Intercolonial. Suffice it to say that if the people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick at that time could have foreseen Itlie developments along the lines of a corporation railway which have come and found themselves around the management of the Intercolonial in times past, I do not believe that either one of those provinces would have entered Confederation. That is an old question, and I am not going into it. The management of the Intercolonial railway at the present time may be all right, in so far as a business policy is concerned, that is, in the way of increasing freight rates and so on; but the policy of the Government, in so far as importations of men to be put over the heads of men who have grown up with the system, is not a wise policy; it will be detrimental to the best interests of the Intercolonial railway, because it will result in men coming to the conclusion that there are no avenues for promotion on that railway, and they will not take the same keen interest in their business as they have been taking in the past. The result will be that men who have grown up in the service of The Intercolonial will go to other railways. That will be a disastrous thing for the Intercolonial, because there are no men more qualified to manage its own affairs than are the men who have grown up with the sys-

tem. It is unfair to them as well as being an unwise policy. In so far as my views are concerned, I am in good company; I am with my hon. friend's, or his friends are with me in the matter. I am not finding fault with Mr. Gutelius; I am not saying that he is not a good man to manage the Intercolonial; but for a good salary the minister could get a man out of the service as well qualified and capable as is Mr. Gutelius, and those men should have the choice.
I have no doubt the Minister of Railways did not see the paper of his friend from Colchester, and I believe I could interest him by reading the very nice things it says about his department in regard to the management of the Intercolonial. Some of them are small matters, and I am not going to read them to the minister. Some of them are matters of more importance; but I have read what I think most helps my case in this regard, that is, that the policy of the Intercolonial railway and of the Government, should be to give to the local men from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and Quebec, through which that road runs, the chance of promotion. If it is a fact, as is set out by the paper of my hon. friend, the member for Colchester, that only three chief officials of that road have been retained by this Government, it is time that the people of this country asked for a chance in the management of the Intercolonial railway.


Mr. BOULAY (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I wish to recall to the attention of the Minister of Railways a question I put last year at a time when he was absent from the House. It was about the difficulties which passengers from the province of Quebec, between Campbellton and Montreal, encounter in the dining cars of the Intercolonial. Complaints come daily from Frenchspeaking people who, like persons of other nationality, desire to (take dinner on board, but cannot make themselves understood by the waiters. Only last week, two ladies who arrived here were telling me that they had taken their dinner on board the Intercolonial, and although they had paid the price they had been only half served, because the waiters could not make out what they asked and the menu was drawn up in English only. This has been the case for the last fifteen years. But that the abuse lias lasted so long is no reason to perpetuate it. It seems to me that it would be easy to have on every dining car a man who understands French to help the passengers who do not understand English. In this
connection, I shall quote from a correspondence published in " Le Progress du Golfe " of the 5th of February last. The heading is:	French on the Intercolonial.
Here is an extract:
Mr. Editor:-I think I read, a few weeks ago, in the columns of your valuable paper, that the Railway Commission had at last consented to provide for French Canadian passengers on the Intercolonial a dining-car service that would meet with their just requirements.
But you can imagine my surprise and indignation in realizing last week that no change in this respect had taken place on the dining-cars of the Intercolonial. I vainly insisted on being given a menu drawn up in French ; I was told there was none. I persisted in speaking French: they stupidly answered that they did not understand.
I grant that the author of this letter is perhaps a little too exacting. It would as a matter of fact, be quite expensive to have menu cards which change every day, printed in both languages. The English menu card might do, provided there be someone around able to translate it and it would be a secondary matter, provided there were some waiter who could understand French.
Every one knows that half of the Intercolonial line is through the province of Quebec, from Montreal to Metapedia. Very often our compatriots are put to that sort of inconvenience in travelling in that section of the country. There ought to be in the dining cars at least one man-preferably the conductor-who understands French. Waiters are changed oftener and it would be better if the conductor were the one to understand French. Conductors of dining cars should be made to learn some French. It is easy enough; we ourselves learn to speak English. With a little knowledge of French, this conductor should be useful to all the people travelling on that line. He need not be a French scholar, it would be sufficient for him to be able to speak a few words of French so as to make himself understood by passengers.


Mr. DELISLE (Translation):: As on board the trains of the Canadian Pacific railway.


Herménégilde Boulay: But there
is here more than a question of public convenience, there is a question of revenue. If only ten persons travelling on the line from Campbellton to Montreal do not take their dinner on board, because they cannot be understood by the waiters, it is so much lost to the railway. This improvement saould have been made fifteen years ago when dining cars were put on the line. Because it has not been done, is no reason why it should not be done now.



[Stage Direction]
Now, Mr. Speaker, I would call attention to the time-table of trains leaving Montreal. There may be serious reasons of which I am not aware and I should be glad to know them, I refer to the time when the maritime express leaves Montreal, which is 8.45 a.m. This train used to leave at twelve. But this was changed a few years ago and 8.45 a.m. is the present time of departure. That time is not in the interest of the Intercolonial, because it precedes by fifteen minutes the arrival of the Pacific train from the west. On that western train, which comes into Montreal at 9 a.m., there are always many passengers who are going east. What is the result? Some of these passengers continue on the Canadian Pacific railway instead of taking the Intercolonial, or if they wish to travel by the Intercolonial, they have to wait in Montreal for twenty-four hours, especially when the Ocean Limited is out of service. Even if the Ocean Limited is running, travellers from the West have to wait about twelve hours. I can see no reason why the maritime express should not leave at 10 o'clock, thus giving passengers from the west time to go from one station to the other and take the Intercolonial. I believe there would not be any great inconvenience in changing the timetable as I suggest. I did not have the opportunity of discussing the matter with the superintendant of the road. If there are serious objections I should be glad to know them. The present time-table occasions a loss of time to the travelling public and a loss of money to the treasury. Now, a word about another anomaly. The service on a section of the line which runs through my constituency is performed by New Brunswick people. Every one sticks to his own people and his own province; so I would plead for my own compatriots. The time has arrived for a change here. In olden times the Metapedia valley was an uninhabited desert, and naturally officials had to be selected from New Brunswick; but to-day things have changed and this mode of selecting officials should change also. Yet those New Brunswick employees do not speak French. Thus the superintendent and foreman do not speak French and those who work under them are all French Canadians. I cannot see why that section of the Intercolonial should not be under the control of the superintendent at Levis. If that would be giving him too much, a second division could be made comprising the line from Campbellton to Montreal under a French Canadian superintendent. 
That course could now be easily justified, because the superintendent at Campbellton has been .given a good deal more work since there has been leased by the Intercolonial one hundred and ten miles of railway going to St. Leonard, New Brunswick. It seems to me that this is a sufficient reason for giving control of the Quebec part of the Intercolonial to a Quebec man.
That is the occasion of much inconvenience to the farmers, for the passengers on the Intercolonial and to the patrons of the road who have to talk business with the superintendent, or the foreman either about fences or other works on the road and cannot make themselves understood. The same necessity was not always felt, because the land was not yet settled, but to-day the land is taken up and a change of method is urgent.
There is another defect I wish to bring to the minister's attention. That defect, or rather flaw in the Government railways legislation, has been discovered by the superintendent at Campbellton. When the farmers applied to the superintendent to have railway crossings placed at the end of their property with a proper grading, the superintendent always answered them during the last ten years that the law allowed it only for private companies and not for Government railways. So the farmers cannot have their crossings and cannot force the Government to make the necessary grading. I looked personally over the Act and I found that, as a matter of fact, it is silent in that respect as regards Government railways, while providing for private companies. It seems to me that the Government should not take advantage of this defect in the law to refuse the request of the farmers for proper crossings.
I will close my remarks, Mr. Chairman, by asking the hon. Minister of Railways to kindly grant us, as soon as the country's finances will allow and with the least possible delay, the favour of acquiring by purchase or lease the small railway from Sainte Flavie to Matane. Serious inconveniences are suffered by passengers and shippers who, because the road is operated by a company, have to pay double rates and experience long delays in the delivery of the freight. I submit it would be in the interest of ithe Intercolonial either to rent or purchase this shore line which cannot be very expensive.
It crosses a great section of my county fairly well populated and prosperous. The acquisition of this short line would work to the benefit of the Government and of the whole district.
Arthur Bliss Copp: I wish to say a few words on the subject of the general management of the Intercolonial railway which has been brought up by my hon. friend from South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll.) I do not profess to be an expert in railway matters, but this question of the general management of the Intercolonial is a very interesting one in the Maritime Provinces, especially at this time, and I believe there is no constituency more interested or more concerned in it than my own. I am not here to say anything of an unkind or harsh nature in regard to Mr. Gutelius, the manager of the Intercolonial railway. I have not the pleasure of his personal acquaintance, and therefore know nothing about his ability in his line. But from the information I have, information which I believe to be reliable, the management of the Intercononial railway for the last few years has not been of a character best calculated to promote the interests of the road. When I first had any thing to do with public matters the Intercolonial railway was operated under the management of Mr. Pottinger. I freely admit that within the last few years the Intercolonial railway has enlarged and we are having more and better trains than in the old times; but down to 1911, and even to 1912, Mr. Pottinger was at least a very prominent figure in the management of the railway. I believe that somewhere about the year 1908-the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) will correct me if I am wrong-a change was made and the management of the Intercolonial railway was entrusted to a commission, of which commission Mr. Pottinger was a member. This went on for some time, and different men were brought in from outside, and also some of our own men were chosen to be members of that board. I did not see any advantage in that form of management. Strange to say, in the election of 1911, the candidate of the Liberal party in the county of Westmorland condemned the commission form of management of the Intercolonial railway and declared that it would be better to have one man at the head of the concern as general manager. The candidate of the Conservative party in that constituency declared that the commission must go. More than that, he pledged himself that if there was a change of Government we should, have a Maritime Province man as Minister of Railways. As we all know, the Liberal candidate in Westmorland was successful but the Liberal Government was defeated. Yet, strange to say, the gentleman who at that time was particularly discussed, Mr. Brady-against whom personally I have not a word to say-instead of being dismissed as had been promised	by	the	Conservative candidate,	has	been	promoted and his
salary increased, and a house has been purchased or leased for him, and a large expenditure made to keep him living in luxury. And now, as the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) has said, a stranger has been brought in as general manager. The hon. gentleman refers to him as an "importation." If I refer to him in that way, it is with all due deference and not in a slighting way. I do back up
5 p.m. and corroborate, however every word that my hon. friend from South Cape Breton has said-in my opinion there are just as good men who have been in the employ of the Intercolonial railway, men who have been retired from the Intercolonial railway to make room for this gentleman, who are just as good in their line and just as capable of managing the Intercolonial railway as any man who could be brought in from anywhere outside of this Dominion. I may be wrong, but that is my strong conviction. Not only do I object to this man being brought in, but I go further and say that in my opinion the salary of Mr. Gutelius is altogether too large a sum to pay for the management of the Intercolonial railway. I am not here to talk, small politics, but I believe I am voicing the sentiments of my constituents and of the people of the Maritime Provinces generally when I say that, particularly under present conditions, the salary of Mr. Gutelius is far larger than it ought to be.


An hon. MEMBER:: How much is he
getting?


Arthur Bliss Copp: $20,000 a year, is it not?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Besides his salary of $20,000 a year, as my hon. friend has said he is provided with a private car, with a porter and servants-


Francis Cochrane: Have not the superintendents and others always had their private cars? There is nothing new in that.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I was going on to say when the minister interrupted me-and I want to be fair; I am discussing this exactly as I feel about it-that I have no objection to the general manager having his private car; I believe it is only proper and right

that he should have it, and I should be surprised if he did not. But I do not believe that it is in the interest of the Intercolonial railway, nor do I believe that it is in accordance with democracy as we have it in this country, that the general manager or any other official, if he wishes to go from Moncton to Amherst to address a public meeting, should go in his private car and take his servants with him. Nor is it necessary, when an official of the Intercolonial is called upon to go to Prince Edward Island, to have his private car attached to the train and taken to Pointe du Chene to take the boat. And when he wishes to return, I do not think it is necessary that he should wire back to have his private car sent from Moncton to Shediac, a distance of seventeen miles, to bring his lordship back to the city of Moncton. My hon. friend smiles. But I can tell him that that.has been done. I want to be fair: it was done not only under the present Government but under the late Government, and I opposed it then just as seriously as I do now. I believe the time has come when the Government will do well, the Minister of Railways particularly, though he is not a Maritime Province man, to take enough interest in the maritime provinces to let these people understand that they are being paid by the people and that they are the servants of the people and should not impose upon them in this matter.
I go a step farther. I fear that governments and cabinet ministers sometimes forget the time when they represented constituencies and had to look after the small things of those constituencies. In the same way, I believe that one of the disadvantages in bringing in these men from outside to manage the Intercolonial railway is that they are apt to forget that they have under them men who are struggling to meet bare expenses while they are living in luxury. It is all very well for Mr. Gutelius to draw down his $1,666.66 every month in the year, and besides that he has a free house, free fuel and everything in connection with the running of his house.


Francis Cochrane: That is not true.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am subject to correction
in that respect. He gets his house free I suppose?


Francis Cochrane: I think so.


Arthur Bliss Copp: And his fuel?


Francis Cochrane: No.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Mr. Gutelius draws, as I
say, $1,666.66 every month. Compare this with the amount paid to the average employee of the railway, who, working ten hours a day, must work three years in order to draw as much as Mr. Gutelius draws in one month. When these workingmen come face to face with that, consideration, then they begin to doubt that they are properly treated by the Government. The feeling is growing in the Maritime Provinces and in my own county that men who are working on the Intercolonial railway are not receiving the pay that they should receive, while officials of the railway in higher positions are being paid more than they ought to receive. Under those conditions, it seems to me, the policy of bringing in outside men and putting them over the heads of men who already hold positions on the railway is one which overlooks entirely the rights and interests of Intercolonial railway employes. I bring these matters to the attention of the minister simply for the purpose of expressing the opinion that they do not constitute the proper policy for the conduct and general management of the Intercolonial railway. I believe that the Intercolonial railway was just as well conducted and managed years ago as it is now. If newspaper reports are correct, I believe that there are many more accidents than there used to be.


Francis Cochrane: I want to correct my hon. friend in that. Since the " safety first " movement was introduced, accidents have been very materially reduced all round.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am glad to have that information; I was speaking simply from my reading of reports of accidents as published in the newspapers. It does seem that the Minister of Railways would do well to take into consideration the suggestion made by the hon. member for South Cape Breton in regard to this matter. Under the circumstances I think that the minister could very well ask Mr. Gutelius to allow his salary to be reduced, particularly during these hard times, when business is dull and money scarce. I express these view's not as having the least feeling against the gentlemen who manages the Intercolonial railway. I have nothing against Mr. Brady; I know him personally and do not wish to say anything against him. But I do say that as a general thing the management of the Intercolonial railway is costing too much, and I believe that

if a change were made the people would be better satisfied in the Maritime Provinces generally, and particularly in my own constituency of Westmorland.


Francis Cochrane: I do not object to any criticism made by the hon. member for South Cape Breton or by any member of the committee, no matter upon which side of the House he may be seated. I should not object to any Conservative member criticising my action in the management of the Intercolonial railway; I think the man who holds a position such as I hold to-day must expect criticism. The hon. gentleman said something about business management. I must manage the railway in a business way, because I do not know anything about managing it any other way. I have endeavoured, to the extent of my ability, to look after the interests not only of the people of the districts concerned, but of the whole people of the country. I do not suppose that anybody could manage the railway and give perfect satisfaction to everybody. I have endeavoured to keep politics out of the Intercolonial railway. I do not think it is in the interests of the line or of the people served by it that an institution like the Intercolonial railway should be run on political lines. I have held that view since I took office, and I will continue to hold to it and to carry it out. In reference to the promotion of men, one of the planks which I laid down when I first took hold of the Intercolonial railway was that promotion should take place from the ranks upon merit, and upon merit only. I am bound, as long as I am in office, to carry out that principle. I do not think that I am the only Minister of Railways who has ever been criticised, but I do not think that no Minister of Railways has gone over the system as I have gone over it and has tried to make himself as fully acquainted w.th it as I have. I have been told, though I do not know it as a fact, that other ministers-not my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) sitting over there-have had to lock the door of their car when they stopped at certain stations. I will never do that. The hon. member for Rimouski directed my attention to the advisability of having French-speaking officials on the buffet cars. I am glad he called my attention to that matter; if he had spoken of it before I should have had it adjusted, but it has never been brought to my attention. He complains about our bringing men in from New Brunswick and employing them upon the Quebec portion of the 94
railway. I do not believe that under any system you can avoid doing that, and I do not think it affects the men at all. It may be that to have on the line operating in the province of Quebec men who do not speak French would be detrimental to the service in some Tespects, but on the wohle I think it is better for the men to move round and to have this added opportunity of studying their work and becoming more efficient in it. I could not follow the hon. member for Rimouski in all his remarks, but I will refer to his speech when translated and take note of what he has said. In reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Westmorland with regard to the purchase of a house for Mr. Brady, I may say that the house was bought because of the subway to which reference has been made. The damages which were occasioned to the house necessitated its purchase, but Mr. Brady is paying rental for the house, just the same as other employees are paying rental for theirs. I think there is nothing wrong in leasing him the house, even if he is an official of the railway. My hon. friend referred to private cars. I think that when he studies the railway question a little further he will find that it pays to have a private car for the superintendent. Without exaggerating, I think Mr. Gutelius receives 300 letters a day, and when he travels in a private oar he can have his secretary and other officials with him and may attend to business all the time. I know he has done this, because I have made trips over the road with him. I am sure that any one who has had anything to do with the management of a railway knows that it pays for the manager, and even the superintendents under him, to have a car to travel in, for it enables them to perform their work much more efficiently and with greater satisfaction all round. As for the personnel, I must say that I think no railway in the land has a better class of men than is to be found on the Intercolonial. My instructions are that the men who show an interest in their work are to be watched, with a view to promotion. It is not desirable that I should bring in outside people, ,but I must say that the system introduced by the ex-Minister of Railways was not working out to advantage. With the exception of Mr. Pottinger who, like myself, was getting on in years and would in any case have had to retire very soon, we have kept on all the men who were on the old Board. Mr. Brady, who was superintendent and a member of the Board, is continued in active



work under the present General Manager. He was the man who, when I first took office, seemed to know more about the Intercolonial than anybody else. As regards the pay of the men, I do not take any credit for it, but the total amount paid in wages to-day is considerably higher than when we took office. We are getting the confidence of the men from one end of the line to the other, though of course we shall never have the confidence of them all. But the majority of them feel that we take an interest in them, that we have their welfare at heart, and are not simply trying to get all we can out of them. My hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp) has mentioned the safety first movement. I do not know anything that the men have taken a greater interest in, both for their own sake and for the sake of the travelling public, (than the safety first movement.
Notwithstanding the criticism that has been made of Mr. Gutelius, I say, and I am glad to say it, that he puts into his work all that is in him. He has satisfied me to the full. He may have made mistakes, but the man who does not make mistakes never does anything at all. He is there to work, not for any one individual, but in the interest of the whole people. I am satisfied that he gives great value for the salary he receives, and as long as I occupy my present position I propose, with the consent of my colleagues, to letain Mr. Gutelius in his position at that salary, for I think it is in the interest not only of the road, but of the whole Maritime Provinces. Where the greatest improvement has taken place is in the engineering. I do not wish to say anything about Mr. Mackenzie. He is an estimable gentleman in many ways, but I do not think he was a good engineer. If I were to criticise the construction of the Intercolonial I should say that instead of trying to get rid of grades they tried to get hold of them. It was in the engineering department that the great mistakes were made, mistakes which will cost a great deal of money to eliminate. I am satisfied that the Sydney branch could have been built very much cheaper and with much easier grades; and if that had been done our engines instead of being able to haul only 500 tons would have been able to haul 1,200 to 1,500 tons. It does not take an expert in railway matters to see how it pays to have low grades. I think that what we should study most of all is how to get the road down to a proper business basis, and how to get the most out of our rolling stock. And

as long as I occupy this position I intend to try and improve the system, to have the interests of the men at heart, and to do for the road the best that within me lies.


Mr. KYTE:: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the observations made by the Minister of Railways. I will supplement his statement that the unsatisfactory condition of the Intercolonial through the island of Cape Breton was due to bad engineering, by saying that the bad engineering, if such existed in the construction of the road, was due to bad politics. For it fs very well known that the location of the Intercolonial through the island of Gape Breton was purely a matter of politics. Very strong representations were made to the Government of that day that a very much better and cheaper line of railway from the Strait of Canso to Sydney could have been located through the county of Richmond and the southern portion of the county of Cape Breton. But political interests were too powerful with the Government of that day for them to accept the cheaper and more satisfactory road from every point of view, and the consequence is that the minister has to-day to deal with a railway running through the island of Cape Breton which is in the condition he has described. Last year a survey was ordered by the Department of Railways and Canals through that section of the country extending from St. Peter's to the city of Sydney, with a view to estimating the cost of a road through that section, and it was also the intention of the Government, at all events it was the intention of the late Government, to acquire the Cape Breton road, running from Point Tupper to St. Peter's, and to extend that as a Government line to Sydney. I very much regret to learn from the information which the minister has given the committee this afternoon that the report of the engineers who made that survey from St. Peter's to Sydney is unfavourable, and that owing to the cost the Government does not intend to take over the Cape Breton railway and extend it to Sydney. That will be a matter of very deep disappointment to the people living in the constituency which I represent, as well as to the people in the constituency of South Cape Breton. We have always felt that, owing to political exigencies, we were improperly deprived of having the Intercolonial pass through that section; but that injustice to that important section of the island of Cape Breton was about to be remedied by the late Government just be-

fore they went out of office. The Minister of Railways of that day had actually introduced legislation in this House for the purpose of enabling him to deal with certain branch lines in the Maritime Provinces, of which Cape Breton railway was one. Had the Government not been defeated in 1911, I am absolutely certain that the plan of the ex-Minister of Railways would have been carried out, and that to-day not only would the railway from Point Tupper to St. Peter's be operated as a portion of the Intercolonial, but I am convinced that if the extension of the line from St. Peter's to Sydney would not already have been completed it would be fairly under construction. From a statement made by the Minister of Railways this afternoon it seems there is no hope of the people in southern Cape Breton enjoying the advantages of a Government railway through that section of the country. We will endeavour to get along the best we can and hope that the day is not far distant when some relief may be afforded to the situation which exists there at the present time. While I am on my feet I should like to ask whether the minister has a report from the engineers who made the survey from Sydney to St. Peter's last summer, and if so would he be good enough to lay it on the table of the House.


Francis Cochrane: I am sorry to say I
have not got it here, I shall have to get it from Moncton.


George William Kyte: I see that the plan of the
survey of the road from Guysborough has been laid on the table of the House. I am equally interested in the report I have asked for.


Francis Cochrane: All right, I will get it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have listened with
some interest to the observations of the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte), and while it is quite true that possibly a better line of railway could have been obtained by way of St. Peter's to Sydney, there was a great deal of difference of opinion at that time, and the final location of the road was a sort of compromise between the two sides of the island) possibly the best for the time being. I have always contended that no one railway could supply the necessities of the island of Cape Breton, as it is practically two islands divided by the sea. When there is a railway running through each arm of land, the people will have fair railway accommodation, but until that is 941	.
done the necessities of the case cannot be met. The minister refers to Mr. Mackenzie, who was chief engineer of the Intercolonial railway. I am extremely clannish to the name Mackenzie, but I must say that this Mr. Mackenzie is no relation of mine. If there were bad grades on the Intercolonial railway, Mr. Mackenzie never had anything to do with the finding of the grades. He was not in the service of the Intercolonial railway when it was built from Riviere du Loup to Halifax, or to New Glasgow. The Intercolonial railway from New Glasgow to Port Mulgrave was built by a company with which Mr. Mackenzie had no connection. The road from Port Mulgrave or the strait of Canso to Sydney was built under the supervision of another engineer; and from Montreal to Sydney, I venture to say, Mr. Mackenzie never had anything to do with the finding of the grades of the present railway. It is true he was on the road as chief engineer of maintenance and other works, but never as an engineer of construction on any part of the line. It is only fair to an old servant of the Government and the road like Mr. W. B. Mackenzie to say that he never had a chance to find any grade on the Intercolonial railway. Therefore he should not be held responsible, whatever difficulties may arise.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The minister either misunderstood my argument, or he was hardly fair in attempting to make it appear that I had argued against private cars. I distinctly said I had no objection to private cars, and would be very much surprised if they were not used by the general manager and even the superintendents of the divisions. I was complaining of the use of private cars otherwise than on business trips.


Francis Cochrane: But they are doing business going and coming; the car is their office.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Would they be doing much business going from Moncton over to Pointe du Chene?


Francis Cochrane: Yes, some.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Or returning from the island, would it be necessary for the superintendent or any official to wire to have a car run down to meet him at Pointe du Chene to return to Moncton? Is that reasonable?


Francis Cochrane: That would take three-quarters of an hour, and he could do a lot of work in that time.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend says he believes that to be a proper use of private cars. I take issue with him on that ground. I do not believe that is a proper use of a private car. Is it a proper use of a private car, if an official's wife wants to go from Moncton to St. John, to put a private car on an express train?


Francis Cochrane: I am not going to discuss ladies here.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does he approve of that use of a private car, and further would he approve of the use of private cars being attached to express trains to go to the golf links in the afternoons?


Francis Cochrane: No, that I would not approve of, if it is true.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am glad to have something that the minister would not approve of, and if he will inquire into these things he wrill find that what I have suggested takes place in my constituency. I wish to have it understood that I make no criticism of the general manager or other officials having private cars for use on business trips, but I do not believe that the uses which I have pointed out are proper.
Intercolonial railway-To strengthen bridges, $700,000.


George Perry Graham: When the hon. gentleman's predecessor was in office the minister was not in this House, and so he does not know what real tribulation is. His predecessor used to be abused most unmercifully in the House because he insisted on spending something on capital account, and was told on more than one occasion that the time had arrived when the capital account expenditure of the Intercolonial railway should be cut out. All these items look so familiar to me and remind me of the strong criticism that we should have no more capital account expenditures, although that criticism was not well grounded. This year my hon. friend proposes to spend on capital account between the Intercolonial railway and Prince Edward Island some $10,000,000, which is a pretty large addition to capital account. There are one or two large items, such as the works at Halifax, which come into this, but does the minister really intend to spend all of the $10,000,000 on capital account this year? There are certain items of taxation which are being imposed, because the minister says he will spend $10,000,000 on capital account. If he is going to spend it judiciously and intends to expend it I have nothing to say,

but if it is only put in lest he might want to expend it and he does not really intend to, we might reasonably not have such a great amount of taxation imposed on the country, and this item might be reduced to just enough to cover what he really intends to expend.


Francis Cochrane: I think my hon. friend will agree that the expenditure at Halifax is necessary. Then there are heavy capital account expenditures at Cape Tormentine. If the hon. member had read the report on the bridges he would agree that they should be strengthened, because they have been there a long time. The bridges were not put in for the power that is being used to-day; in other words, we have been, increasing the motive power for a long time and not increasing the strength of the bridges. In many cases we have to brace up the bridges, and I think that is a very necessary item.


George Perry Graham: I am surprised that Mr. Gutelius wants to put in steel structures, because I understand that in connection with another system he thought wooden structures were pretty good. I am surprised that he should recommend steel structures for this railway. I agree that they ought to be put in. It is said that men shall answer themselves when they are in the wrong.


Francis Cochrane: That will come ill at another time.
Mr. (GRAHAM: In putting in steel bridges Mr. Gutelius answers himself. Could the minister give any general idea of where the bridges are to be put in.


Francis Cochrane: The following is a list of the bridges which it is proposed to put in: South iCocaigne bridge; North Coal Branch bridge; Richibucto River bridge; Kouchibouguac bridge; Barnaby river, third crossing and second crossing bridges; Bartibogue bridge; Red Pine River Bridge; Nepisiguit bridge; Tete a Gauche bridge; Beresford bridge; Elm Tree bridge; Belle-dune bridge; Dickey's bridge; Benjamin River bridge; Moffatt's bridge; Otter Brook bridge; Indian Brook bridge; Metis bridge; bridge three-quarters of a mile west of St. Anaclet; Rimouski River bridge; bridge half a mile west of Trois Pistoles; Trois Pistoles bridge.
Mr. MARCH,: Did I understand the minister to say the Restigouche river?


Francis Cochrane: N'o, the Richibucto river.


Charles Marcil: Do any subways come in under this vote?


Francis Cochrane: There is a different vote for those.


George William Kyte: I understand that a slow-up order was issued to conductors on all trains of the Intercolonial railway in the month of October requiring them to slow up on all bridges and culverts between Sydney and Point Tupper, numbering 39 in all. As a consequence it is impossible for express trains to make time. It does seem rather extraordinary that all the bridges on that section of the Intercolonial railway should have gone bad at the same time. I understood that Mr. Gutelius had Been devoting some attention to the Improvement of the Intercolonial railway and it seems rather extraordinary that all the trains should have to slow up while crossing the bridges and culverts.


Francis Cochrane: It was not so much that the bridges had gone bad, but the rolling stock was so much heavier than the bridges had originally been put in for.


George William Kyte: Was there anything done
during the last year to strengthen any of these structures?


Francis Cochrane: Some of them have
been strengthened this year.


George William Kyte: Has the minister any information as to why W. Jr. Mills, of Port Hawkesbury, inspector of bridges, has been dismissed? Mr. Mills was for many years foreman-carpenter on the section of the Intercolonial railway between New Glasgow and Sydney. He was afterwards appointed trackmaster and then promoted to be inspector of bridges.


Francis Cochrane: Over the whole line?
Mr. KYTE; Between New Glasgow and Sydney. I am informed that he was dismissed a week or so ago without any intimation whatever as to the reason why he was dismissed or any intimation from his over-officer that the discharge of his duties was not satisfactory. I would like to know why he was dismissed.


Francis Cochrane: I will get the information.
Chatham-diversion of line and branch to wharves, $2,500.


Mr. LOGGIE:: I was very much interested in the remarks of the minister when
he said that he was looking after the interests of the people down there. I want to ask him what he has done to implement his promise made to the House one year ago. I drew his attention to the fact that he had taken up the rails on the south side of the Miramichi river and that he had left a large number of farmers and merchants without any railway transportation whatever. In his reply he stated that he had decided to operate the railway on the north side of the river only. I drew his; attention to the fact that a large river ran between the residents on the south side of the river and those on the north side and that, having taken up the rails, I said that he should provide for another approach to the line that he was operating on the north side of the river. The minister promised me ttiat he would take the matter up with the local government and see if a bridge could not be constructed across the river at Chelmsford that would provide an approach to the present line on the north side of the river.


Francis Cochrane: I do not think it was I who promised that; I was not here.


William Stewart Loggie: Well then it must have
been the year before. It certainly was a minister, although possibly I may be wrong in saying it was the Minister of Railways. It may have been my hon. friend the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid). At any rate a promise was made when I brought the matter to the attention of the Government. I understood that matters were so far advanced that negotiations were entered into with the local government with a view to having this bridge constructed so that there might be an approach to the railway that is running on the north side of the river. Just think of the minister taking up the rails where some 200 people reside, and who have enjoyed railway facilities for 40 years, and saying: We will not operate the road any more on this side of the river, but we will operate it on the north side of the river, and while doing this not providing any approach to the railway that he is operating! While it is true that the local government have to do with the King's highway in the ordinary sense, it is also true that the Government railway provides approaches from the King's highway to the station where it is necessary for the public to get from the King's highway to the railway.
Is it not equally fatr that he should under the present circumstances provide an approach from the opposite side of the river

to that on which the railway is now being operated ? That is a reasonable request. Generally speaking, I understood it is the duty of the local Government to provide the King's highway, but this is a matter that demands the special attention of the minister, and it ought not to be overlooked. While the minister says: I am going down there to look after the interests of the people; is he doing it in that case ? I really feel that the minister is not doing his full duty.


Francis Cochrane: All right.


William Stewart Loggie: The Government of the day is not doing its full duty to the people living along that side of the river. Those people had railway facilities for forty years, and the Government undertook to take up the rails with the idea that it could economize and use the railway on one side of the river only; but the Government made, no provision so that the residents on the other side of the river could not reach the railway station. Moreover, there are a number of days in the fall and spring when it is absolutely impossible to get across the river under any circumstances. It is true there is a small boat ferry, and in the winter season there is the ice; but in the spring and fall there is no way of getting across. I do not know with what authority, but the rumour is going around that the roadbed that has been abandoned is to be transferred to the local authorities. When the minister replies, will he tell me if there is any. truth in that rumour ?


Francis Cochrane: I never heard of application being made.


William Stewart Loggie: I suppose the municipal authorities or the local Government would make the application. If the roadbed were transferred, it would be done with the idea that it would be used for a King's highway along that side of the river. I want to protest in the name of the people on that side of the river against any such proposition. The people living in Chelmsford hope that some day the rails will again be laid on that roadbed. They are so grieved over this abandonment of 26 miles of railway that they hope that some day better things will come to them. We are speaking about building new branch railways. Provision is made for the Government to build new lines that do not exceed 25 miles in length without even coming to Parliament first, but letting the matter come before Parliament afterwards.
Here the Government have taken up 26 miles of rails the use of which the public have enjoyed for oO many years. I want to impress especially upon the mind of the minister that it is his imperative duty at once to arrange for an approach to the railway from the side of the river from which he took up the rails. The people who live there at the present time have no reasonable railway transportation. They have no reasonable means of getting across the river except over the ice. There is no steam ferry; there is only a boat ferry, and in order to get across the river with a team, they would have to travel about 20 miles.
Many years ago it was my privilege to support a resolution in this House in regard to transportation of fish by express. On that occasion I suggested to the minister in charge that I thought the most reasonable and feasible way would be to reduce the rates of express from the seaboard to the interior points. I am glad to say that the Government acted on that suggestion and put into force a decreased rate by paying one-third of the cost. That has been a great boon to the fishing industry and has enabled the fishermen to distribute their product in the interior of the country to some advantage. This Government should extend that policy to other towns such as Chatham and Fredericton. That, however, is not the point which I wanted to raise at this moment. I wanted to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that he can very much improve the transportation of fish. In the summer season the cars are warm and the ice melts very quickly and the fish does not arrive at its destination in as good condition as it might. Hence the whole fishing industry, as well as the transportation companies, is hurt. In the winter season, when one would suppose it would be cold, frozen fish sent by express does not arrive in as good a condition as if it went by freight. I know of customers in Toronto who, when we ask	if we shall send fish by
express say: no; if it goes in a heated car, it will arrive in bad order; let it come by freight, although it may take ten days to reach its destination. It is in the interest of the railway as well as in the interest of the general public of Canada that an improvement should be made, because the fish will be more palatable on its arrival, and better fish will be put on the market. When the minister is having new express cars constructed he should divide them into two sections, having

MARtJH 25, 1915
a refrigerator in one section which can be simply installed with pipes and ice and salt, and it would cost very little. That refrigerator or cool room could be used in the winter to keep fish in fine condition. It could be used and kept cool in the summer, so that the ice would be preserved and the fish arrive at its destination in good order. If the minister will hear that in mind, when cars are being constructed again, it will _ help the express companies as well as the industries that are affected in the way I say. The city of Montreal and Toronto are large consuming centres, and it is important in the interest of those cities that the fish should arrive at its destination in good condition.
I want to remind the minister that there is a memorial in the office of the minister for the construction of a short line of railway from Newcastle down towards Tracadie. That section of my county is a rich one. The railway at present receives a very large benefit from the shipments of fish from Loggieville, and I am sure that if the railway were extended down on the other side of the river, it would be in the interest not only of that locality, but of the main line of the railway.
There is another matter I would like the minister to bear in mind when he is taking over the branch lines. There is a line between Moncton and Buctouche. A charter has been taken out to continue this line to Loggieville. I suppose the charter is got for the sake of what they can get out of it, for I hardly believe that any company will construct the road. But I hope the Government will some day construct that road in connection with the line between Moncton and Buctouche.


Francis Cochrane: What kind of country does it go through?


William Stewart Loggie: Buctouche is quite a
settlement.


Francis Cochrane: I mean the portions to be constructed.


William Stewart Loggie: A part would be wooded and the rest largely farming country. Would the minister please tell me what is to be done with the money under an item I see here for the diversion of the line between Nelson and Derby Junction?


Francis Cochrane: That is to pay some
unsettled claims and also to complete a portion of the telegraph line.


William Stewart Loggie: The hon. minister told me that he contemplated moving Chatham
Junction to the other side of the river. Now the junction is gone, for the present at any rate. But I hope better things are in store for us in the near future. I do not wish to take up time by telling the minister that the service is most unsatisfactory. These people not only have no facilities for getting across the river to take the train, but when they get the train, the service into Chatham is very, very unsatisfactory. But I have no doubt the management are doing their very best to make it right, and I do not think it would be fair for me, at this time, to adversely criticise heir work. But there are about 10,000 people on the south of the Miramichi river, between Derby -Junction and the terminus at Loggieville, and they certainly have great lack of railway facilities. Let me give the minister an illustration. I went home a few weeks ago, I left Montreal on Saturday morning and reached Newcastle about five o'clock on Sunday morning. As the minister knows there is no train into Chatham, so I had my horse meet me.


Francis Cochrane: They do not allow us to run trains on Sunday.


William Stewart Loggie: I left Newcastle at five, and I was home at six. If I had gone down by rail I could not have got home until seven.


Francis Cochrane: Then, surely the hon. gentleman does not want more railways.


William Stewart Loggie: Not railways run on those lines. However, I am not finding fault at the present moment, because I know the management are doing their best.


George Perry Graham: I think the members of the various committees will expect to go on with Militia Estimates to-night, and I would ask my hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) to look up the information I have asked for before his Estimates are taken up again. There is another matter. I have an idea that he has the same trouble with the Militia Department that I had to get them to give the business to him instead of to other roads. Could he find out how much the Intercolonial railway has received from the Militia Department for the movement of troops and so on?


Francis Cochrane: I will have that for the next time my Estimates are taken up.


George Perry Graham: Thank you. I used to have my difficulties in getting the Militia Department to give us traffic.
At six o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


William Pugsley: The hon. minister said that he would bring down the correspondence regarding the order for 10,000,000 rounds of ammunition, and also information respecting the censors at St. John.


Major General HUGHES:: I will send
over to my hon. friend the correspondence respecting the purchase of ammunition. I have the following memorandum respecting the censorship staff at St. John, N.B.:
The censorship staff at Partridge island, St. John, N.B., consists of: Charles Masters, St. John, censor ; George Shaw, St. John, assistant censor; J. Herbert Crockett, St. John, assistant censor. The censor is paid $9 per diem and the assistant censors $7 per diem.
Partridge island is a wireless station, employed only for communication with shipping. At the opening of the war it was closed, but on January 4, 1915, the chief of staff of the Naval Service Department wrote to the military Secretary of the Interdepartmental Committee, stating that it was being reopened to traffic, and asking that a censorship staff be appointed.
Delay was caused by the gentleman first offered the post of censor accepting and then declining. Mr. Masters accepted the post on January 12, 1915. Up to March 25 there is due to him $657 and to his assistants, $1,022 [DOT] total, $1,679.
Mr. Masters reports that he and his assistants are regularly at work in relays of eight hours as far as possible, the communication between the station and the mainland occasionally being irregular. There is always one member of the staff present at the station.
The number of messages handled to March 13 was 537. The volume of traffic is not great but the fact that the station is open for the transmission of wireless messages renders vigilance necessary, and it is essential to have the censor or an assistant censor present all the time to ^ ensure the absence of improper communications. The regulations for censorship state:	" the minimum number sufficient to
carry on the work of censorship at any station which is open day and night will be three." The station thus has the smallest number of censorship staff compatible with observance of the regulations.
(Sgd.) C. P. Hamilton,
Lt.-Colonel, Deputy Chief Censor.


Mr. RHODES:: Last evening the hon.
member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) brought up for the second time this session the question of the alleged ill-treatment of the 17th Battalion, comprised largely of Nova Scotians, -while at Valcartier camp and Salisbury Plains. He was careful to assert that he did not bring the matter up for the purpose of casting any reflection upon the Minister of Militia. His alleged purpose-I quote from his remarks as they appear on page 1494 of Hansard-was:

I think, however, that it is only just to the persons in Nova Scotia who are interested in the 17th Battalion, made up, as it is, of Nova Scotians, that these matters should be brought to the attention of the committee and of the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence.
I cannot possibly understand how the hon. member for Richmond could feel that he was serving any purpose likely to benefit the people of Nova Scotia by bringing such a matter to the attention of the committee at this time. It must be borne in mind, without respect to the merits of the allegations that were made by him and by the hon. member for Guysborough, that no satisfactory inquiry could be made in respect of this matter until after the return of the men from the front. I think it should be borne in mind also that while this great war is in progress the discussion of matters of moment to perhaps a few men, but of comparative insignificance as affecting the welfare of the Empire, might very well remain in abeyance. However, since the hon. member for Richmond and the hon. member for Guysborough sought to make an ex parte statement, as it were, of the alleged ill-treatment of the Nova Scotians at Valcartier and Salisbury Plain, I think it only fair that a statement in reply should be submitted. For that purpose I have had placed in my hands some affidavits made by men whose names are alleged to have been signed to the memorandum submitted by the hon. member for Guysborough, and bearing particularly on the question of the alleged ill-treatment referred to. I may add that I have had nothing to do with the preparation of these declarations. If I had been preparing them myself, I should not have included some of the statements which are contained in them, but I cannot read portions of them; I must read them in their entirety. The first one is from Robert Aldridge, and is as follows:
I,	Robert Aldridge, of Toronto, in the province of Ontario, fitter, declare as follows:
1. I know Spas Stackoff and knew him since Christmas. I was suffering from asthma in the hospital and Stackoff was in the same ward with me for a month. Stackoff has told me regarding signing the document regarding the Nova Scotia Battalion. He said he did not know what he had signed and said he thought it might be regarding the helping of the sick.
I told him it was not that but I had learned it was something done for the purpose of harming the Government. I have never voted in Canada and had no political sympathy in Canada, but as I considered all the men had been treated most fairly by the Canadian and Imperial Governments, I felt that it was doing a grave injustice to circulate such a false complaint. I saw the cigar box-

The significance of that statement will appear as I read subsequent affidavits.
-but would not sign the statement which evidently had been prepared without any reference to what the men would testify if they were asked. I never heard any complaints regarding the Nova Scotia Regiment and I was ir. the same surroundings as Staekoff; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath and by virtue of " the Canada Evidence Act." (Sgd.) R. Aldridge.
Declared before me this 18th day of March, A.D., 1915.
(Sgd.) R. H. Murray,
A Commissioner for taking affidavits to be used in the Courts of Nova Scotia.
Here is the affidavit of Staekoff himself:
I, Spas Staekoff, formerly of the 9th Battalion, 1st contingent, declare as follows:
1.	I enlisted in Edmonton in the 9th Battalion and went to England to Salisbury Plain. In November I was suffering from rheumatism and went to the hospital. I never saw the 17th Battalion from Nova Scotia. I never came in contact with them and never heard anything about them in any way.
2.	The day before yesterday, Tuesday the 16th inst., I was at the barracks on Sackville street, and I saw a man with a paper and a box of cigars. I asked him for a cigar and he said "if you will put your name down on the paper I will give you a cigar." I asked him what the paper was, but he would not tell me. I thought it might be to help the sick men and I signed it and he gave me the cigar. I cannot read English but can speak it fairly well. I am a Bulgarian. I have been invalided home but I have nothing whatsoever to complain about In my treatment in camp or in hospital. I never heard any men complain of conditions, as I believe we all had to help out and the authorities were doing the best they could for us. I make this declaration voluntarily and to free my conscience of making what I learned afterwards to be a complaint concerning ill-treatment of the soldiers,- a thing which I had no idea of doing and which was absolutely false in regard to the neglect and ill-treatment. No oath or declaration was taken from me on making the declaration referred to on the 16 th instant.
And I make this declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath and by virtue of the Canada Evidence Act, the said declaration having first been read over and explained to me, and I understanding the same, in the presence of myself, Cprl. R. Aldridge and the commissioner herein.
(Sgd.) Spas Staekoff.
Declared before me this 18th day of March, A.D., 1915.
(Sgd.) R H. Murray,
A Commissioner for taking affidavits to be used in the province of Nova Scotia.
Witness,
(Sgd.) R. Aldridge.
The next is the affidavit of Wm. Thomas Oldridge, which reads:
I, William Thomas Oldridge, at present in the city of Halifax, do solemnly declare and say as follows:
1.	That my home address is London, Ontario.
2.	I enlisted in the first contingent at London, Ontario, for overseas service.
3.	I joined with the 7th Fusiliers and was transferred into the 10th Battalion and went across to England with the first contingent.
4.	I was at Salisbury Plain continually from the time we sailed from Canada until after Christmas.
5.	I have been invalided home because of illness.
6.	The lines of the 17th Battalion, Nova Scotia, and the 10th Battalion joined one another, and the men of the two battalions mingled together and were intimately acquainted. This was at Bulford Sling Plantation and Pond Farm.
7.	I heard read in Halifax yesterday to several of the men who were in the first contingent and who were invalided home with me, typewritten or printed statements which I understood had come from the office of the Morning Chronicle of this city. These statements were read to the men at the South Barracks. There would be about twenty or so men in the room. Of these only three or four were members of the Nova Scotia 17th Regiment, and these had only been transferred to the 17th Battalion two or three weeks before they had come to Halifax.
8.	The persons who had the statements, however, solicited every man in the room to sign these statements notwithstanding that the great majority of them were not members of the 17th and knew nothing of the statements. On this occasion two or three men signed.
9.	The men who had these papers for signature were supplied with a large quantity ox cigars which they were distributing freely among the returning soldiers whom they were soliciting to sign the papers.
These circumstances just now related happened on Tuesday, the 16th. While they were passing the cigars around and getting the signatures the men handling the business announced that they had further supplies down at the office, which we understood to mean the Chronicle office.
10.	These men did not receive their pay until this morning, Thursday, the 18th inst., and yesterday afternoon, Wednesday, the 17th inst., a large number of them appeared to be supplied with money and were in an intoxicated condition. I did not see any of the men receive the money but from the circumstances and conditions and statements of the men I am satisfied that some person, on Tuesday and Wednesday were supplying these men with money and liquor. They had no part of their pay at that time.
11.	Most of the statements contained in these written papers which the men were asked to sign were not true. There were some inconveniences that all the battalions had to put up with and which we all expected to put up with, but the 17th Battalion had no more of them than any other. In fact they had more conveniences than we of the 10th Battalion.
12.	During the months that we were there together mixing one battalion with the other we never heard of any complaints from, the men of the 17th Battalion that they were being badly or unfairly treated or abused.


William John Macdonald: In the absence of the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) I should like to ask my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) whether he gave my hon. friend any intimation that he was going to bring this matter up?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I did not because I did not see him. These papers have been in my possession only about two hours.


William John Macdonald: I think it is to be regretted that my hon. friend from Cumberland, before bringing to the attention ol the House this matter which I thought was thoroughly threshed out last night, did not intimate to the hon. member for Guysborough that he intended to do so. I see by Hansard that the hon. member for Guysborough read last night a paper purporting to be signed by a number of men to the following effect:
We, the undersigned officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the 17th Nova Scotia Battalion, having read the article published in the Morning Chronicle of February 25, 1915, signed by H. C. Crowell, do hereby certify it to be a true statement of the facts concerning the treatment of the said battalion, so far as our knowledge goes, and we have a personal knowledge of most of the facts therein stated:
I never knew that that statement had been made until the hon. member for Guysborough read it last night, but as my hon. friend has again brought this matter up I think that, in the absence of the hon. member for Guysborough it must necessarily involve some statement from him in regard to it. At this juncture I merely wish to point out that the basis of all this discussion in the Morning Chronicle and in this House on these two occasions was the statement made by Col. Struan G. Robertson in the first instance, and that anything that may have been attributed to these non-commissioned officers and men in Halifax as to what they did or did not say is not half so strong as what was said by Col. Struan Robertson not only in letters to his friends, but in the information lie gave to the correspondent of the Halifax Chronicle who happened to be on the other side. So that the gentleman with whom the issue rests, so far as any difficulty of good Itaste is concerned, either in this House or out

of it is Col. Struan G. Robertson. I do not propose to discuss the matter any further except to express regret that the incident has again come up in the House and to point out to the hon. member for Cumberland. who I am sure will appreciate it, that in justice to the hon. member for Guys-borough who happens to be absent, we must naturally expect to hear from him again.


Robert Laird Borden: I should like to say that the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) introduced the subject by reading a letter addressed to myself, and neither the Minister of Militia, who is concerned in the statement, nor I had the slightest notice that he proposed to take that course, so I would not think the hon. gentlemen has anything to complain about. It is only by the merest accident that I happened to be in the House at the time when these statements were read. I have alluded to certain letters of which I had some recollection and I think it is only just that 1 should give them to the House, and I will give them in the order of their dates:
Dear Sir Robert:
The Minister of Militia showed me in London recently a letter purporting to be from myself and Major Struan Robertson. The letter was written as a protest on the part of Nova Scotia and contained strictures against the character and qualifications of the Minister of Militia. At the time that the Nova Scotians were striving to gain the authorization to form themselves into a regiment, a misunderstanding arose between ourselves and the minister as to the number of men we claimed to have brought into camp at Valcartier. Major Robertson asked me if I would sign a paper addressed to the Premier aiming to offset any mistaken representation that might have been made by the minister, and at the same time to present clearly the arguments as to why we should have a regiment from Nova Scotia. I was informed that all the other officers and non-commissioned officers were signing, and I readily affixed my name without reading, taking it for granted that the letter was as represented.
When Major General Hughes showed me a copy I was astounded as I had never sanctioned in any way such complaints and such strictures as were made against the Minister of Militia. The letter was not signed by other officers and I wish to place myself on record in repudiar tion of this letter, and I absolutely deny any responsibility for the accusations contained therein.
I am, very truly yours,
(Sgd.) C. A. Andrews. Wtst Down South Camp,
Salisbury, November 4, 1914.


William John Macdonald: That is Major Andrews?	.


Robert Laird Borden: Colonel Andrews,
I think. This is the next letter:

Pond Farm Camp,
Salisbury Plain, Nov. 9, 1914.
Dear Sir R-bert:
1 have just learned from Lieut.-Colonel Andrews that a copy of a statement signed by us has been received by you. It was- drawn up previous to your visit to Valcartier when we were all smarting under the unmerited treatment we had rece.ved. Tour visit rendered the completion of the paper unnecessary and I put the original and two copies aside to destroy them. I find that I have now only the original and one copy left and am utterly at a loss to know how or by whom the other copy was forwarded to ycu. I regret exceedingly that you should have been caused the annoyance of receiving the statement after all occasion for it had passed.
With regard to the rifle I brought this matter to the attention of the Adjutant General Colonel Williams who advised me to make a report in writing to Colonel Helmer. This I did. Colonel Helmer went into the matter carefully with me and assured me that the defects had been remedied by calling in the rifles while at Valcartier and adjusting the springs, while the sights were being improved so that they could no longer come apart in handling. My duty in the matter was thus discharged.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Tour obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Struan G. Robertson.
I am not absolutely sure whether this letter refers to the communication to me which has been read in the House. On reference to my files I do not seem to have any record of my having received that communication; at least my secretary informs me that he cannot find any trace of it although in replying to Colonel Robertson I seem to take it for granted that I had received it.


William John Macdonald: He seemed to take it for granted too.


Robert Laird Borden: Ottawa, Ont. November 20, 1914. Dear Colonel Andrews:
I have your letter of the 4th instant and note the information therein contained.
We are glad to know that the Canadian expeditionary force made so fine an appearance and gave so favourable an impression when they were reviewed by His Majesty the King.
I understand that Lord Kitchener spoke most warmly in commendation.
Tours faithfully,
(Sgd.) R. L. Borden.
Colonel C. A. Andrews,
West Down South Camp,
Salisbury Plain, England.
Ottawa, Ont., November 26, 1914.
My dear Colonel Robertson:
Your letter of the 9th instant reached me in due course. No copy of your communication was furnished by me to General Hughes, but from some source a copy has evidently reached

him as he has alluded to it in correspondence and in conversation.
Believe me, yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) R. L. Borden. Lt.-Col. G. Struan Robertson,
Pond Farm Camp,
Salisbury Plain, England.
Then there is a letter from Surgeon-General Guy Carleton Jones:
Office of Director of Medical Services, '
34 Victoria street, London, S.W.,
February 27, 1915.
The Hon. Sir George Perley,
High Commissioner for Canada,
17 Victoria street, S.W.
My dear Sir George:
Mr. Crowell, representing the Halifax Chronicle, came to see me on or about the 10th instant to ask some questions concerning the sanitary conditions of the camp, and more particularly as regards the 17th Battalion.
I gave him a few facts, and he then stated that he regretted that he had not come to me before, and that he thought it would be advisable for him to cable to his paper not to publish an article which he stated he had written and forwarded.
With reference to the 17th Battalion, this unit was under exactly the same conditions as all the other units of the 4th Brigade, namely, the 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th Battalions, the 3rd Field Ambulance, the Reserve Park and some other details. They were not crowded like cattle, and they were never left without a qualified medical officer.
They have had six cases of cerebro-spinal meningitis, but beyond that their health has been very good.
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) G. C. Jones, Surg. General, Director of Medical Services,
Canadian Contingents.
Next there is a letter from Lord Kitchener's secretary, which reads as follows:
War Office, White Hall, S.W., 1-3-15. Dear Sir George:
I showed the enclosed telegram to Lord Kitchener who desired me to say that, as you surmised, the allegations of the writer in the Halifax Chronicle were quite untrue. The Secretary of State did not know whether there were any means of bringing the originator of these malicious falsehoods within the reach of the law for, of course, such statements were calculated, if not strenuously denied, to have bad effects.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) H. J. Creedy.
The telegram alluded to in this letter is that which I have already read in the House. It was a telegram despatched by me to Sir George Perley, setting forth in substantial detail the allegations contained in the newspaper article alluded to. There is also a letter from General Alderson a portion of which has already been given to the House, and which is as follows:
France, March 7, 1915.
Dear Sir George:
I have your letter in which you send a copy of a cable from the Prime Minister regarding the 17th Battalion.
Were it not serious in that it gives the people of Nova Scotia a totally wrong impression, the article in the Halifax Chronicle would be as childish as was the idea, that you told me of, that trenches round tents were not allowed on Salisbury Plain, because they would interfere with the hunting.
The only word of truth in the whole article is that Colonel Robertson has been replaced.
The fact that these units knew that they were not coming with the division naturally dampened every one's spirits, and I have no doubt some of the men, in writing home, would overdraw the picture of the inevitable difficulties and discomforts.
All the nonsense about being used as scavengers, etc, is pure invention.
Tours sincerely,
- (Sgd.) E. A. H. Alderson.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Just one word which I feel it due to myself to say in response to the statement of the hon. member for Piotou (Mr. Macdonald). I think I realize quite fully that courtesy and consideration which ought to be extended by one member to another in this House on whichever side he may be, and therefore I would be the last person in the world who would wish to offer discourtesy to the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) or to any other hon. member. But I did not feel that this was a matter affecting the hon. member for Guysborough. It is a matter of public interest that affects everybody, that affects the people of Nova Scotia in particular, and I did not feel that it was incumbent upon me to advise the hon. member for Guysborough that I proposed to read these affidavits in the House any more than it was incumbent upon him to notify me that he proposed to make a statement last night. He did not notify me, he did not notify the Prime Minister, and he did not notify the Government or any member of it.


William John Macdonald: My hon. friend (Mr. Rhodes), I know, is very courteous, and I have always recognized that. Unfortunately, at the time my hon. friend spoke, my hon. friend from Guysborough was not here, and I thought that the tone of his utterances and the reading of the affidavit would be to a certain extent matters of interest to my hon. friend because these affidavits related to a statement which he had read in the House last night.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Not to the statement of the hon. member for Gyysborough.


William John Macdonald: No, but the statement which he had read to the House. This is not a question reflecting upon the people of Nova Scotia. Colonel Struan Robertson undertook to make certain charges to the Prime Minister, and he wrote to his political friends in the House acquainting them with these charges. He communicated these facts to a correspondent of a newspaper in the city of Halifax with the desire of having them made public. That is why they were made public. That is why we had the discussion here, and it is just as well to understand that if there have been any complaints it is no use blaming newspapers or anybody else. Colonel Robertson was the gentleman who inaugurated these complaints and who has persisted in reiterating them.


John Howard Sinclair: I regret very much that I did not hear the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) when he spoke, but I understood that he produced some statements from parties who had signed the memorandum which I read to the House last night, qualifying in some way the memorandum which they had signed. I do not know these gentlemen. I am not acquainted with any of the gentlemen in question except Colonel Struan Robertson himself. He is the only man amongst these officers that I have ever met or known anything about. I do not want my hon. friend to think that I am in any way personally concerned or interested in the result of this inquiry. I was simply interested on account of the province of Nova Scotia which he and I have the honour to represent, and I feel especially interested in regard to the parents and friends of many of these young men who have volunteered for service at the front. A few days ago I visited Nova Scotia and I was surrounded by some of these people. They were interested in the young men who had gone with the 17th battalion and they were very naturally anxious as to the treatment of the boys on the other side in view of the statements that had appeared in the public press. I thought it my duty to say a few words last night to ascertain whether or not the treatment that was supposed to have been meted out by the Minister of Militia himself to these officers and men at Valcartier was such as it had been represented to be. I do not pretend to discuss what has taken place on the other side of the Atlantic. The Prime Minister in his reply deprecated the fact that I should have thought of stirring up distrust between the 
people of Canada and the officers in command of the forces on the other side. I did nothing of the kind. My right hon. friend had no right to make any such statement. Any hon. gentleman who will read my remarks will see that I was very careful not to deal with anything that happened ^ at Salisbury. I directed my remarks altogether to Valcartier and to the statements in regard to the minister himself. These statements I do not need to reiterate to my hon. friend from Cumberland because they are on record and I would like to know if he is satisfied. Is he absolutely satisfied that the Nova Scotia battalion got that fair-play and consideration that they ought to have received at Valcartier?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I wish to say that in my opinion if the treatment accorded to the Nova Scotia men was as bad as it is alleged to be, or if it were a hundred times worse, it would still be most unfortunate that the matter should be ventilated in this House at this time when we have not the men here and when a proper inquiry cannot be had. While that statement involves the officer commanding, General Alderson, and others, I deprecate the circumstance that the matter should even be mentioned in this House, and I sincerely hope that the whole thing may remain in abeyance till such time as an investigation can be had after the war is over.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend has his minister here, and he is supporting him.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The minister has absolutely nothing to do with the soldiers once they cross the water.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister himself
has not said so. The minister was discussing the matter in regard to the officers of the 17th Battalion. I referred to nothing else. In my remarks I was careful not to refer to General Alderson or to any one else on the other side of the Atlantic. I wanted to elicit from the minister whether he had really treated the officers of the 17th Battalion in an unfair manner at Valcartier. My hon. friend the member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) ought to be as much interested in this question as I am. He ought to feel it his duty to stand up for the Nova Scotia Battalion in this House or anywhere else. I do not wish my hon. friend to insinuate that I was the first man to commence this discussion in this House. My right hon. friend the Prime Minister spoke 6f it on several occasions before I ventured

to say anything. It was not a hew question in this House last night. It had been discussed in the newspapers throughout the country. It had been discussed by hon. members previous to last night. The remarks made by myself and by my hon. friend the member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) last night were only for the purpose of completing the discussion commenced in this House on a former occasion.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: My hon. friend was not here when I made my remarks. When he reads them to-morrow morning, he will not take exception to a single word I said.


John Howard Sinclair: I am glad to hear that.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I made no reflection upon the hon. member whatever.


John Howard Sinclair: Enough has been said
to warrant a thorough investigation to set the matter at rest and to show, the people of Nova Scotia and the relatives and friends of the men who volunteered that the latter were well treated at Valcartier. I do not wish to criticise the minister unduly, but it is due to him to institute a thorough investigation into this matter, and to lay before the House and the country the real facts, so that the relatives and friends of the young men who volunteered may feel that when they did so at the risk of their lives and of their future, they were properly treated by the military authorities of Canada.	*
Mr. MoCURDY:	I was not in the
House last evening when this discussion was first precipitated. On perusing Hansard, I find that last night a copy of a letter written to me by Col. S. G. Robertson was produced and read. I am at a loss to understand how that letter came into the hands of the party who read it. Possibly the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) can enlighten me on that subject.


John Howard Sinclair: Which letter?
Mr. McCURD l :	The letter addressed to
me which was read in the House last night.


John Howard Sinclair: I did not read any
letter in the House last night. I read only a memorial from certain privates and officers corroborating the statement published in the Morning Chronicle. I know nothing about the letter except what I heard read in the House.


An hon. MEMBER:: It was read by the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte).
Mr. McCURDi : I am sorry that the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) is not here. He might be able to inform us as to how he procured the letter. The discussion seems to have been left by him at an early date and to have been taken up by my hon. friend the member xor Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair). I am very sorry that this subject has become at the present moment one of public notoriety, and that my name has been introduced into the discussion through the reading of that letter, for I have up to the present refrained from participating publicly and would hate continued to do so if my name had not been mentioned in this House. The present is to my mind a time for deeds, not words.
I will state first that the letter which was read last night is a copy of one which 1 received; but some six days prior to the receipt of that letter by me, the whole matter was precipitated for public discussion by publication in the press. The whole incident is, in my opinion, unfortunate, and in this view I think I am in line with the best public opinion in the province of Nova Scotia, as well as elset-where.
It has been personally stated to me that the direct result has been an adverse effect upon recruiting in Nova Scotia. I was told by an officer of the 40th battalion that the day before the public discussion began some 37 recruits offered for enlistment, and that on the following 'day the number fell to 12. Recruiting slumped to a marked extent.
Whether or not the matter should be publicly discussed is a question upon which members may differ. I have expressed my own opinion. Whatever the reasons for publication may be. the effect is quite apparent. But I cannot see how public interest is to be served by bringing the matter up in the House at the present time.
When the articles were first made public, they were brought to the attention of the Prime Minister in the House, and assurance was given by him that he had requested that an investigation be made by the proper military authorities of Great Britain. Therefore it is difficult to understand what useful purpose could be served by having the matter brought up in the House before the finding of that court is available.
The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) last night read a number of affidavits. He also stated that he was

east and that he came back yesterday. I should judge that the affidavits read by him were not voluntary on the part of the deponents nor, indeed, obtained without some expenditure of time and energy.


An hon. MEMBER:: And cigars.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: 
Mr. POWER:: On a recent visit to England I had the proud pleasure of spending a few days on Salisbury Plain. If any statements have been made that the Canadians there were dissatisfied or unhappy, I can say that those statements are not correct. They have been perfectly well treated there. They had hard times owing to the inclement weather, but no more at Salisbury Plain than elsewhere. So far as the Canadian boys in Salisbury camp are concerned, they were all happy and contented and all anxious to get to the front.


John Howard Sinclair: I am glad to hear the testimony of my hon. friend from Quebec (Mr. Power) in regard to Salisbury. But

we were discussing the question of Val-cartier. My hon. friend from Queens and Shelburne (Mr. McCurdy) is the particular friend of Colonel Robertson- He is the man to whom the Colonel appealed. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he did anything in answer to Colonel Robertson's communication telling of his difficulty, and asking the hon. gentleman to assist him in his trouble. He is the man whom Colonel Robertson most depended upon to right his wrongs. I should like to know if the hon. member took any action, or did he put Colonel Robertson's letter in his pocket and do nothing? That was what was worrying me when the hon. member was giving advice to us on this side of the House to say nothing about it.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: I have already told the hon. gentleman that with the idea of geographical location of units I am thoroughly in accord. I supported the proposal to organize a Nova Scotia battalion, and I have found no reason to change my mind. With regard to what he calls my particular friendship with Colonel Struan Robertson, I regret to say that I had not the pleasure of meeting the gentleman until after the first of August of last year. Anything that I have heard of Colonel Robertson's military qualifications is favourable, but it is a matter of hearsay. It was not for the purpose of advancing any one's personal interest, whether officer or anybody else, that I took an interest in the organization of the Nova Scotia regiments, but because I believed that the idea of grouping soldiers of one province in a battalion by themselves was sound and would result in more efficient service.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN:: I desire to ask the Minister of Militia a question. Is it not a fact that all the officers and all the contingents are under the author-9 p.m. ity of the British War Office and that the Canadian authorities have nothing to do with them?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: I quite understood that my hon. friend from Queens and Shelburne was in favour of the Nova Scotia battalion, and I understood he took an active interest in the formation of the battalion at the time it was first proposed. The reason why I thought he must be in the confidence of Colonel Robertson was, that while there are eighteen members in this House from Nova Scotia, the hon. gentleman was the man selected py Colonel 95
Robertson as the one to whom to address a letter of complaint. I inferred from this that Colonel Robertson had more coofi-dence in the hon. gentleman than in any of the rest of us. I would like to know if he is perfectly satisfied with the treatment accorded to Colonel Robertson and his associates in connection with this matter.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: Long before 1 received the letter to which the hon. gentleman refers, the whole matter had been placed before the public by the press and the Prime Minister immediately gave his statement to the House that he had asked the War Office for an investigation. That seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable and logical course of action, and I have not heard that Col. Robertson is not satis-ed with this course. I am surprised that the hon. gentleman is not himself satisfied with the assurances given and the procedure taken.


John Howard Sinclair: It is difficult for the War Office to investigate what took place on this side of the Atlantic, and that is the matter I am asking about. Is the hon. gentleman satisfied with the treatment of these soldiers before they went across to England? That is a question that can be answered by yes or no.


Fleming Blanchard McCurdy: In his treatment of the case last night, I understood the hon. gentleman referred both to Salisbury and Val-cartier, but possibly the reference to Salisbury was by the hon. member for Richmond.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: May I ask the hon. member for Guysborough if it is not true that he himself is very much more closely related to Colonel Struan Robertson than-


John Howard Sinclair: I am not related to him at all.


Avard Longley Davidson: I think that by marriage they are very closely connected. The hon. gentleman is a brother-in-law of Colonel Robertson, unless I am greatly mistaken.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend is mistaken.


William John Macdonald: I want to say, on behalf of the hon. member for Guysborough, that Colonel Robertson is not his brother-in-law.


John Howard Sinclair: I did not suppose that any one thought so.


William John Macdonald: It is rather amusing to see hon. gentlemen on the other side



trying to unload Colonel Struan Robertson on the hon. member for Guysborough.


William Pugsley: Last evening in discussing the appointment of censors, I referred t,0 the chief censor, Lt.-Colonel Hamilton, and stated that it was rumoured that he had been engaged since his appointment in writing party pamphlets. I desire to say in justice to him that I received a letter from him in which he calls attention to the report of my remarks and assures me that the rumour is entirely without foundation. I very cheerfully accept his statement and have no doubt that injustice was done to him by my giving currency to the rumour.
Militia and Defence-customs dues, $125,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It appears from evidence given in the Public Acounts Committee that in most cases duty has been charged on goods brought into Canada to be sent across to England and France. It is a most remarkable thing that the Government should borrow money from England for the purpose of prosecuting this war and then take a portion of that money to themselves in the way of customs duties upon goods imported into Canada to be sent across to England and France to help prosecute the war. Evidence was given that duty was paid in connection with motor transports of different kinds, amounting in the aggregate to many thousands of dollars. Would the minister explain whether there has been any fixed policy in that regard and, if so, the reason for that policy?


Major General HUGHES:: In the early
stages of the war our attention was not directed to these little points, although arrangements were made with the Customs Department-the Minister of Customs was only too willing to accede to the suggestion- whereby goods coming through in bulk or bond should be entered duty free. The case of trucks partly made in Canada, upon which the duty is paid by the manufacturer, is a rather complicated matter; we are looking into it. I found the other day that duty is being charged upon field glasses; it is of duty in this respect refunded by the Customs Department. We are proceeding to have this matter looked into, and whatever duty has been paid on imported articles to be used for war purposes, it is our intention to have refunded.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Refunded to the war appropriation?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: About how much money has been paid in duty on such articles as have been mentioned?	*


Major General HUGHES:: Not very much,
I think. It was in connection with the importation of field glasses that my attention was directed to this matter. We furnished the officers with field glasses, and I found that they were being put in at abnormal prices. Upon inquiry I found that these prices were partly due to the duty which was being paid and partly due to a combine which prevented the sale of field glasses at reduced rates. With this combine Canada has nothing whatever to do. We tried half-a-dozen times to break it; we did break it once, but I am sorry to say that we cannot break it again. Duties which have been paid upon these field glasses will be refunded.
Dominion arsenal, $300,000 .


William Pugsley: Where is the Dominion arsenal situated, what work is being done there, and how many men are employed?
Major-General HUGHES: Salaries amount to $34,000; wages of operatives, $581,000; material, $564,000; machinery, $5,000; electricity and gas, $18,000. It is required to keep the arsenal going night and day. About six hundred men are employed.


William Pugsley: What does the arsenal turn out?


Major General HUGHES:: The arsenal turns out mark vii rifle ammunition and a limited number of shrapnel shells.


William Pugsley: Where is it?


Major General HUGHES:: In the city of Quebec. Part of the works are on what is known as Cove Fields, near the citadel.


William Pugsley: What does it cost per thousand rounds to manufacture the mark vii ammunition?


Major General HUGHES:: I am informed by my deputy minister that at the present time mark vii ammunition, which is more expensive than the other, costs from $32 to $35 per thousand rounds.


William Pugsley: I have the last report of the Secretary for War of the United States, and in which it is stated by the officer who is in charge of the arsenal that the average cost of the manufacture of rifle ball cartridges during the year was $22.89. An

order for 10,000,000 ball cartridges was filled at the rate of $22.50 per thousand. That would be very considerably less than the cost of producing the mark vii ammunition at the Dominion arsenal.


Major General HUGHES:: The size of the American ammunition is .300; ours is .303; that however, may make no difference in cost. The cost which the hon. gentleman has given is the net cost, not including overhead charges. The American Government have a number of firms retained for the manufacture of ammunition-many of these firms are largely employed in manufacturing ammunition for the Allies-and to these firms they give what may be called semi-guaranteed orders each year. The British mark vii is more expensive to make than the American ammunition. Does the hon. member know what the United States pays for ammunition from the factory?


William Pugsley: Why does the hon. minister think that the price of $22.50 at the Brookfield arsenal recently would not include the overhead charges? It professes to give the cost and also in the same connection compare the prices which they have had to pay to the factories, running as high as $35.70. Therefore I would assume that the $22.50 would include the overhead charges in the Government arsenal.


Major General HUGHES:: If the hon.
member looks up the report he will find that it does not include overhead charges. The fact that the hon. member admits that his own report says that the cost runs up as high as $35 when the ammunition was purchased from outside factories bears out my contention.
Mr. PUGSLEY; Of course this must be borne in mind, that in the United States in times of peace, with a standing army of less than 80,000 men, their requirements of ammunition would be trifling compared with those required by the British Government as the result of the activities of Mr. J. Wesley Allison. I am told that as a result of his negotiations 200,000,000 rounds were ordered.


Major General HUGHES:: 75,000.


William Pugsley: My information is 200,000,000 altogether. That would be giving employment to the factories for a very considerable period of time, and- one would suppose that the prices at which the ammunition would be turned out would be very considerably less than if it was a case of comparatively small orders, such as the orders given by the United States 95i
Government. I take it from the statement of the American Secretary of State for War that they thought the manufacturers were charging too high a price and they made a careful study of the matter and gave an order to the Brookfield government arsenal recently for 10,000,000 rounds with the result that the total cost of manufacture was only $22.50 per thousand rounds.


Major General HUGHES:: If the hon.
member looks back he will see the figures are borne out relatively the same for years. What they pay to the factories is much higher than what they put down as the cost to themselves. The figures from which the hon. member is quoting are ante helium figures, the figures of last year's report when there was no war on. To-day I will venture that the prices for United States ammunition are 20 per cent to 25 per cent more from the factories. Therefore I do not see that my hon. friend has made much of a point.


William Pugsley: As my hon. friend says, these are war times; but it must be borne in mind that the Allied Governments are acting together in the purchase of ammunition; there is no competition. It is not as if Germany or Austria were buying. Neither of those countries is a customer because they could not get the war supplies- across the Atlantic to Germany, and therefore one would think that the British Government and the French Government and the Russian Government would be able to get ammunition supplies at fair and reasonable prices. I recognize that there might be a somewhat higher cost for materials owing to the demand and the many rush orders, but it seems to me that the margin between $22.50, which the Secretary for War of the United States says is the actual net cost of manufacture, which I would assume would include overhead charges, and $33 per thousand rounds is very large.


Major General HUGHES:: If my hon.
friend could induce some member of the United States Congress to take that matter up I presume he would have a good field to operate in; but as it does not concern ourselves in the slightest I do not know whether we need burden ourselves with it. Our net cost paid to outsiders is higher than the figures he has given and our factory price is lower than the price in the United States, which I think shows that we have made a good bargain.


William Pugsley: It concerns us if we find that we are paying very considerably higher

prices in Canada than the same ammunition costs in the United States, where the cost of labour and of materials would he at least as high as in Canada. It also concerns us in another way, that the British Government, which would be interested in getting ammunition at the lowest possible cost, has entrusted this Government with the purchase of ammunition for it. It concerns us if Mr. J. Wesley Allison, acting for this Government through the Minister of Militia, has committed the British Government to the payment, as my information is, *or something like $8 per thousand more than might have been arranged for if proper judgment had been exercised and proper arrangements had been made in the interests of the British Government.


Major General HUGHES:: Will the hon. gentleman, with his usual ability, point out where there is justification for any assertion that there is a difference of $8, He admits that the United States Government before the war began was paying $35 per thousand for their own ammunition. The Canadian Government was getting theirs for $31 before the war. As soon as war broke out it went up to $33 and $35. The ammunition which I had the honour of securing from the manufacturers in the United States was bought at a lower price than other ammunition that was sold since a shot was fired, $33 a thousand.


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman
stated last evening that Mr. J. Wesley Allison made no charge against this Government for commission so far as related to purchases which he made for this Government; but he said it was a different matter so far as the British and Russian Governments were concerned. Can he tell the committee what was the commission which Mr. Allison received for purchases which he made for the British Government in respect to matters regarding which he had been appointed through the instrumentality of the Minister of Militia?	.


Major General HUGHES:: Could my hon. friend just repeat that once more, it is a beautiful sentence.


William Pugsley: I would be very glad, is my hon. friend hard of hearing?


Major General HUGHES:: Not the slightest, or of conceiving either. If my hon. friend could bear in mind that he was distinctly informed last night that Lieut.-Col. Wesley Allison did not make contracts for

any Government, but was informed that he assisted in breaking down the combine of the American manufacturers from $42.50 to $37.50 and then from $37.50 to $33, two dollars less than the United States Government itself was paying for similar ammunition before the war broke out, I think he will agree that it is a tribute to the genius and ability of the Minister of Militia and Colonel J. Wesley Allison.


William Pugsley: That does not answer
my question.


Major General HUGHES:: I want the
hon. gentleman to repeat that question again.


William Pugsley: I suppose my hon. friend has to be ingenious to avoid answering all the questions put to him these days. My question was very clear.


Major General HUGHES:: State it again.


William Pugsley: I called my hon. friend's attention to the fact that last evening he stated that Mr. J. Wesley Allison had not charged the Canadian Government any commission in respect of purchases which had been made for this Government. My hon. friend also said that it was different so far as the British Government and the Russian Government were concerned. I asked my hon. friend whether he can state to the committee the amount of the commission paid to Mr. J. Wesley Allison in respect to the purchases which he made for the British Government through the instrumentality of my hon. friend the Minister of Militia?


Major General HUGHES:: If the hon. gentleman will name the contract that Mr. Wesley Allison made for the British Government I shall be pleased to answer his question.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend says that Mr. Allison was appointed by him to act on behalf of the British Government-


Major General HUGHES:: No.
Mr. PUGSLEY-in order to force down the prices and break the combine. Now does not my hon. friend see that that must have involved negotiation between Mr. Allison and these different manufacturers? Mr. Allison would be trying to cut down the prices first of one and then the other manufacturer, and would not the whole result be then communicated to the Minister of Militia, who then met with the representatives of these companies at Moira, in New York, and signed up the contract based


MARGu. 25, 1915
[Stage Direction]
on negotiations carried on by Mr. Allison on his behalf as representing the British Government? I ask if my hon. friend can tell me what commission Mr. Allison received from the British Government for those services?
Major General HUGHES:: Mr. Allison was not serving the British Government, but the Minister of Militia. He has had no commission either directly-or indirectly for anything he has done for or through the Minister of Militia in any shape, form or manner.


William Pugsley: Then what did my hon. friend mean by stating to the committee last night that although Mr. Allison received no commission on the purchases he made for the Canadian Government, it was a different matter so far as the British and Russian Governments were concerned?


Major General HUGHES:: I do not know that that is any of the hon. member's business, but I will answer it. There is nothing to conceal. Mr. Allison declined to accept anything either directly or indirectly for anything he might do in connection with the Dominion of Canada. I understand that Mr. Allison has been instrumental in making large contracts with the Russian Government in the Dominion of Canada and in the United States, amounting to upwards of $80,000,000 in one or two cases. I have no reason to doubt that he made at least expenses on these contracts. I presume	he	is	not	out for hishealth	any	more	than	my	hon.	friend
has not been out for his health all his life. I presume he would get an honest man's recognition in these matters, but I have nothing to do with that; I know nothing about it. I have heard it rumoured that large contracts for war supplies were made by him with persons in other countries, and. I suppose he has been making a fair profit. I have every reason to believe that he would not seek to make an unfair profit in any of these transactions. I can assure my hon. friend that, on any transaction in which I was engaged, Mr. Allison from start to finish refused to accept any recognition or commission.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend asks me on what I base my statement that there was a difference of eight dollars in the price at which this ammunition could have been bought for the British Government and the price at which it was actually bought. What I base my statement on was
this, and I was very careful to state when I addressed the committee last evening, and when I made a previous statement in this House, that I had no personal knowledge of the matter. I was speaking entirely on information that I received from parties in the city of New York who professed to have a knowledge of the subject.
I brought the matter to the attention of the Government, and, last evening, to the attention of the Minister of Militia, in order that the matter might be looked into. I am not making any charges at all, but my hon. friend will recognize that the people are entitled to get the facts in regard to purchases of war material. The statement which I made was this: that I was informed that the British Government, through a gentleman whom they had perhaps not definitely employed-perhaps it would be better to say tentatively employed-for the purpose of buying ammunition, had got into communication with the largest manufacturers of ammunition, and this gentleman had practically, if not absolutely, fixed the price at which it could be obtained in large quantities at $25 per thousand rounds.


Major General HUGHES:: I thought the hon. gentleman said $26.50 last night?


William Pugsley: I corrected that figure this morning, and I will tell my hon. friend how I got the other figures. My statement further was that before the contracts were definitely closed Mr. Allison appeared on the scene in the city of New York, as representing the Canadian and British Governments, that notices were sent out by him to the various manufacturers of ammunition, representing that he was authorized to act on behalf of the Canadian and British Governments, that as a result of his intervention the manufacturers broke the negotiations which were pending for the supply of ammunition at $25 per thousand rounds, and the price to the British Government was raised to the sum of $33 per thousand rounds. Now, it is only fair to say that my information is that the price to be actually paid to the manufacturers, that is, the net price which they would receive clear of Mr. Allison's commission, was raised from $25 to $26.50; and my information is that that left $6.50 per thousand rounds which would be available for commission to Mr. Allison and his associates, who devoted so much ability, as my hon. friend says, and so much energy in the arranging of these contracts with the manufacturers.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. gentleman has missed his calling; he should have been a professor of mathematics. I enlightened him last night or sought to enlighten him on the figures. When the hon. member in his own Christian spirit and with no desire to do anything but advance the cause of the country first placed the statement on Hansard which he has now given to the Committee, I was not in my place in the House. But I took occasion to look the matter up, and I found that a firm by the name of Flint & Company-I am talking right by the card and I can talk a great deal more if I want to-and the company at Cincinnati held the price up first to $42.50. They then came down to $37.50. This same firm of Flint & Co. claimed to have been instrumental in securing for some American concern a contract with the British Government for 20,000,000 rounds for mark vi ammunition, which I am free to say was at $26.50 per thousand very, very dear, and I venture to say there was quite a rake-off for Flint & Co. if they were instrumental in securing that contract. I understand on inquiry that the Remington Company claim that they secured the contract through the British agent in New York. I do not know who he is, but I understand he is connected with the British Embassy. I understand that they secured this contract through that officer, and that Flint & Company claim that they had something to do with it and have an action pending.* I do not know anything about the merits or demerits of the case, and I care less. But what I do know is that Colonel Wesley Allison has nothing either directly or indirectly to do with that contract.


William Pugsley: Is he a real colonel or
an honorary colonel?


Major General HUGHES:: He is a real
live wire.


William Pugsley: He must be; we will all admit that.


Major General HUGHES:: My hon. friend is making out a very bad case for himself.


William Pugsley: I am not making out a case at all.


Major General HUGHES:: I admit that, but he is attempting to. The hon. member has pointed out that the American Government before the war paid $35.76 per thousand rounds. That is what the Government of the United Statets paid to their own manufacturers for their own ammunition,

not as expensive an ammunition as our Mark vii.


William Pugsley: Why does the minister say that it was not Mark vii?


Major General HUGHES:: Because this Mark vii is a British number. The American ammunition is not .so expensive as what is known as -303 Mark vii. Mark vii is a sharp long bullet, with aluminum in one end and lead in the base. It is a very expensive bullet to make; the English bullet is a more expensive bullet to manufacture than the American. The British ammunition costs more, and yet the. American Government; before the war commenced, before the price had gone up, before kupfer nickel had become expensive, before aluminum and lead were in demand, and before powder had got dearer, were being asked $35.76 for this American ammunition. The Yankee Government were paying that .and they rvere glad to get it.	[DOT]


William Pugsley: In smaller quantities.


Major General HUGHES:: Never mind that. Yet my hon. friend would criticise us when the least the British Government paid for their -ammunition was $33 per thousand. The -same manufacturers in the United States, after the war broke out, were asking $42.50 for this ammunition.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend is trying to get away from the statement which I am informed is correct, viz.: That had it not been for the intervention of his very particular friend of thirty years standing, the British Government would have succeeded in getting this ammunition for $25 per thousand.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. gentleman .has not the -slightest particle of evidence that there i,s a tittle of fact in what he has stated, and he canno-t produce any. He cannot show that the British Government 'in Britain, in Canada, in the United States, or in any other part of God's green universe, ever was able to get Mark vii ammunition at less than $35 a thousand, excepting the one lot that I had the honour of being instrumental in getting for $33 per thousand.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend may be absolutely correct. I have not the slightest -idea as to whether I am correct or not. It may be that the gentleman who gave me this information gave me false information.


Major General HUGHES:: I say so.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend does not know that.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes, I do know it.


William Pugsley: He does not know it.


Major General HUGHES:: But I do know it.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend cannot
know it. But from his position as Minister of Militia he ought to be able to ascertain whether or not it is true that before Mr. Allison intervened in New York, and sent circular letters broadcast announcing that he was acting for the Canadian and British Governments, these manufacturers had been willing to take large orders for this Mark vii ammunition at $25 per thousand rounds. Perhaps my hon. friend will make that inquiry.


Major General HUGHES:: No, I will not, because I made it long ago.


William Pugsley: The difficulty with my
hon. friend is that he is so I was going to say self-opinionated, but that would be offensive, and I do not want to say that- but my hon. friend thinks he knows it all. He sympathizes with me because I know so little.


Major General HUGHES:: That is right.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend thinks I do not know the difference between what is called a round-nosed bullet-


Mr. FOWLER:: Squid.


William Pugsley: Did I hear the hon. member for Kings and Albert?


George William Fowler: You can generally hear
him.


William Pugsley: I am glad to see the hon. gentleman here to enliven us, and I w-ould be very glad if he would let the minister know what he thinks about the minister's transactions.


George William Fowler: He thinks the minister
is all right.


William Pugsley: Perhaps, having regard to ammunition, but not in regard to training grounds and that sort of thing. My hon. friend might criticise the minister and he could do it certainly more effectively than I could because I am not attempting to criticise him.


Major General HUGHES:: That is true.


William Pugsley: In any remarks I have . made I have not found the slightest, fault
with the minister because I appreciate what the minister has had to do and 1 appreciate the great energy he has brought to bear upon the discharge of his arduous duties. I think the minister would, if he had a little more backing from his Conservative friends, be able to discharge his duty even more effectively. He is in a very difficult position and he requires all the support that, can be given t,o him. While I recognize that from this side of the House we would be able to supplv many gentlemen who would be able to discharge these duties better than the Minister of Militia has done, I regret that I fail to see on the other side of the House any gentlemen who would compare with the Minister of Militia as far as the discharge of these important duties is concerned. Among the many thousands of loyal Canadians in the city of New York who wish well to Canada, and who would like to keep up the good name of this country, there is a general belief that the ammunition could have been bought by the British Government at $25 per thousand rounds and that by reason of the intervention of Mr. Allison they were induced to break off negotiations and the price was raised to $33 per thousand, the manufacturers themselves actually receiving net the sum of $26 per thousand rounds. The minister says he 'will not look into that. Well and good, if he will not look into it I will be obliged to think that he is not fully and properly discharging his duties.


Major General HUGHES:: I will tell my hon. friend why I will not look into it- because I looked into it long ago and I found there was nothing whatever in it more than there is in the remarks of my hon. friend here tonight. There is not a particle of truth in the statement that he makes. The British Government directly -not through any Canadian agency and not through Col. J. Wesley Allison-negotiated for 20,000,000 rounds of mark vi ammunition and they paid a great deal more for it than they should have paid for it. That was before the outbreak of the war I understand-I have never seen the contract.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How much did they pay for those 20,000,000 rounds?


Major General HUGHES:: I am not at liberty to give the figures, but it was more than they should have paid. It was not my contract; had it been I would have had no hesitation yin telling what was

paid. Before the war my hon. friend says reluctantly, I am free to say, that the Yankee Government were paying $35.76 per thousand for the Springfield ammunition and it is not as expensive ammunition as the British mark vii. It is a little more expensive than the British mark vi, but not so expensive as the British mark vii. There is about $5 difference between the two. It will be $7 or $8 now.


William Pugsley: This report does not say
so.


Major General HUGHES:: The report
says nothing about mark vii ammunition.


William Pugsley: It says that this is the latest ammunition.


Major General HUGHES:: That has reference to American ammunition. My hon. friend does not seem able to get it through his noddle that it is United States ammunition that he is talking about The ammunition of which I am speaking is two classes of British ammunition, namely, mark vi, contracted for by the British Government before the war and mark vii after the war had been going on for some time.


William Pugsley: British ammunition made by Yankee manufacturers.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. Millions of rounds. The British Government paid a certain figure for mark vi. Perhaps my hon. friend has the figures. I should imagine so by the style of his argument.


William Pugsley: No.


Major General HUGHES:: I should imagine that he has heard the figures at all events, if he has not seen anything. Mark vii ammunition is more expensive than the American ammunition, which- costs $35.76, according to the statement of my hon. friend. I am willing to accept these figures in this case, although not in others. That ammunition was put in at $33 for the British Government through the Minister of Militia and Defence for Canada, at a time when contracts were being made directly for $42.50, and when the lowest offer made by Flint and Company, in whom my hon. friend is interested, was $37.50. Today as high as $48 per thousand has been paid for ammunition.


William Pugsley: Does the minister mean to say that I am interested in Flint and Company?


Major General HUGHES:: Interested in a casual way, because it is their case that the hon. member is discussing.


William Pugsley: I understand that Messrs. Flint and Company are among the very largest merchants in the United States.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


William Pugsley: That is the reputation which they have. They have been entrusted by the various Governments with purchasing munitions of war for a very long time. They are a firm of very high standing.


Major General HUGHES:: Not only high in standing but high in price.


William Pugsley: That may be so. That may account for their wealth.
Mr. MeCREA: I wish to draw the attention of the minister to the supplies for the 5th mounted rifles now at Sherbrooke, although I presume he is not responsible personally The merchants of that town are complaining a great deal about the treatment accorded to them. They are all friends of the Conservative party. The Government advertised for tenders for the necessary food and other supplies, and tenders were to be in and opened on the 5th of February. It is reported-and I think correctly-that the party supplying the meats and some other goods had a car or two cars of those goods standing on the track several days before the tenders were supposed to be opened. The merchants of Sherbrooke are fair-minded men, and they would not expect any orders from the Government' unless their prices were as low or lower than those of their - competitors; but they are not very well satisfied when they find that their competitor has been awarded the business and that he has the goods on the ground three or four days before the tenders are opened. That is the complaint made to me, and I want to know whether it is correct or incorrect. If it is correct, it is hardly fair treatment.


Major General HUGHES:: My hon. friend does not deny that tenders were called for. The point that he makes is that this company that had the refrigerator cars seemed to know in advance that they were the lowest tenderers.
Mr. MeCREA: The people supplying the meat had one or two cars of goods in Sherbrooke nearly a week before the tenders were supposed to be opened.


Major General HUGHES:: I do not know anything about that. I will make inquiries and see how the matter stands.
Militia and Defence-Engineer services and works, $1,050,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend the minister seems to be spending a large amount of money on engineer services and works. It would strike a layman that, at a time when all our energies ought to be devoted towards prosecuting the war overseas, a great saving might be made. The minister is making a saving of $307,500 as compared with last years' estimates; but he is paying out in engineer services and works over $1,000,000. He is spending on ordinary repairs and works, $400,000, which is an increase	of $127,000	over last
year. One	could hardly imagine
how that could be necessary unless some special works are being carried on by the minister, of which we have not received any particulars up to date. For armouries, generally, there is an amount of $225,000 in the Estimates, in face of all the enormous expenditure which this country is shouldering at the present time. Does not it strike my hon. friend the minister that, in some way or another, he might cut down some portion of this expenditure?
There are some very remarkable stories floating around Canada as to the efficiency, or lack of efficiency, of his engineer service, taking it as a whole. Last August the minister was confronted with an extraordinary condition of affairs, when it was necessary to assemble an army of thirty odd thousand men for overseas service, and he had to as' semble them at a certain point. Every one admits that the minister was wise in his choice of location at Valcartier. So many people in Canada, however, have been there and knew what was going on, that I wish to recall to my hon. friends many of the stories. One is that absolute chaos reigned sppreme in getting ready for the work down at Valcartier, and that my hon. friend's engineer service absolutely fell to pieces. The fact was that so serious did the condition become, my hon. friend was compelled to call upon a rank outsider, a man who up to that date was known as Bob Low, but who since then has been designated by the more euphonious title of Colonel Robert Low. In the Maritime Provinces Bob Low is known as a good contractor. When the engineer service broke down at Valcartier, my hon. friend sent a telegram to Bob Low -I beg his pardon; I mean Colonel Robert Low-asking him if he could send a crew of
300 men down immediately. Bob Low replied,
" If you will send a special train, I will get there." I believe he got there with his men within two or three hours, and set to work and restored order out of chaos. We are told-and it is common knowledge around the eastern portion of Canada-that splendid work was done by this rank outsider. For the work that he performed he was made an honorary colonel, although many men have been made colonels for far less cause than Low was. Low should have been a real colonel, not an honorary colonel. He siiouid have had some real distinction. If the stories which I am relating are true, does the minister feel that he is justified in keeping up this enormous engineer service which he is maintaining and paying enormous amounts of money to it, which is evidently a waste, when we need all the money which we can possibly save? If I am wrong and Colonel Low did not perform the service, then possibly I am doing an injustice to the engineer corps; but I would like a statement from the minister, and I think it is due to the House and the country for him to state exactly whether the splendid results achieved at Valcartier later on were due to the energy and ability of Colone' Low, or if they were due to the energy and ability of the ordinary engineer services, for which we have been paying such a large amount of money during the past year.


Major General HUGHES:: I would point out to my hon. friend that when the war broke out there was no chaos in the Department of Militia and Defence. We got our feet on the table so that the intellects would run down, and in less than twenty-four hours things were moving. On the eighth of August the first day after the division was accepted our engineer forces were on Valcartier ground. The engineers were there: Major Deroche; Major Hughes- not of my clan, but an able man, one of the ablest in Canada; Colonel Maunsell, and other engineers. Colonel Low, who had been manager of the works at the Connaught ranges under Messrs Bate and MacMahon, was an estimable contractor. I invited him down because I knew he had two or three of the best machines for trenching to be found in America, and I knew he was the kind of a man who knew how to drive work ahead. Major Deroche did the engineering work and Colonel Low did the contracting, and it was mighty well done. Three and a half miles of rifle ranges were constructed in ten days. Mr. William Price of Quebec-now Sir William Price-and Mr. COMMONS
McCarthy, a very estimable engineering officer, undertook the laying of the water-mains and twelve miles of water-mains were laid under their direction -


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Or by Colonel Low?


Major General HUGHES:: No, by these
gentlemen. When Colonel Low was through with the rifle ranges, having an excellent staff of men, he was good enough to lend . his assistance in other works around the camp. The engineering officers built bridges across the river and they laid out and built roads. A great deal of other w'ork was done that it is not necessary to mention. Whatever opinion I had of my engineering service, before Valcartier, it was changed entirely, and I was surprised and more than delighted to see the splendid energy they displayed, the work they did and the service they gave to the country in this emergency. In the city at present are a large number of engineers, including some hundreds of graduates of the universities of the country standing in the ranks as privates and preparing to go to the front to do their duty there. The engineering service of the Dominion, whatever other department may have fallen down in this emergency, have come splendidly to the front.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Then I take it that Col-oriel Low is not entitled to all the credit given to him in some quarters-


Major General HUGHES:: I have never grudged him any credit. He is one of the most energetic, progressive and forceful contractors it has ever been my privilege to meet.


Charles Marcil: How did Valcartier come to be chosen? Was it on the report of the officers?


Major General HUGHES:: It was .not. I accept the full responsibility. I climbed the hills at Quebec with the object in view of . finding a site for a camp. I felt
10 p.m. that this emergency was going to arise in the near future, and that in any case the district of Quebec required a camp ground for manoeuvering purposes. Then if war ever came-as we hoped then it would not-we would have a training ground in the vicinity of Quebec. But the war did come, and we were so far prepared to meet the emergency. There are two other localities, not far from Quebec, that, 'I think, are better, because there is no river running through them. But in each case

we should have to build twelve or fifteen miles of road to reach the camp, and that would be more expensive. Valcartier is a beautiful spot; with a light sandy soil and the locality could hardly be better. The troops going there were more than delighted.


William Pugsley: I am glad to know that Mr. Low has been given the honour of a colonelcy as a recognition [DOT] of his proven merit. It was my privilege first to employ Mr. Low in connection with the public works in Ottawa when I was minister.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. member knew a good thing when he saw it.


William Pugsley: I am quite satisfied he is a very excellent contractor. I am glad to know that the training that he had received while I was minister and he was being employed in the Public Works Deparment stood him in good stead when he came under the employment of the hon. Minister of Militia.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There is an
amount here of $50,000 for Halifax defences. Does the hon. minister intend to expend this money?


Major General HUGHES:: It has to be expended this year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: On what?


Major General HUGHES:: If the hon. gentleman will come to my office, I will tell him.
Militia and Defence-Headquarters, divisional and district staff, $205,500.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: A few days ago there was- a change made in the divisional headquarters staff at Halifax, by which Colonel Humphrey was retired and another person appointed in his stead. I hesitate to pass an opinion on what a Minister of Militia should or should not do in respect to his own officials; but I may say that the retirement of Colonel Humphrey has occasioned a great deal of surprise in Halifax, and particularly amongst competent military gentlemen, persons capable of forming a valuable opinion on matters coming within the purview of headquarters officials. It does seem peculiar that this officer should have been retired just at this stage. I am personally acquainted with the gentleman appointed to succeed Colonel Humphrey, in fact, he is a close personal friend of my own, and doubtless will make a very competent official after having some experience in the office. I do hope the minister feels there was some good reason for taking the action he did. The question

which, more particularly, I wish to ask the minister is, what allowance has been made to Colonel Humphrey upon his retirement? Am I to understand that he receives the same allowance that he would have received had he served out his full term, which, I think, had a year or two years to run ?


Major General HUGHES:: The hon.
gentleman is right. Colonel Humphrey is getting his full pension, and also leave of absence necessary to complete his full term of service. He has been a very energetic officer in times gone by. There is no fault to find with him. But we felt that a post like that, with a large district to administer, and at a time such as this, required a younger man.
Militia and Defence-maintenance, military properties, $160,000.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Under the administration of the former Minister of Militia a piece of road near Kingston, about two miles in length, was taken over by the Government. Has the minister taken into consideration this year the matter of effecting repairs to that road ? It might not be advisable to 'spend money at present on that part of the road from the foot of the hill to the bridge, because during the building of the causeway heavy loads are taken over it for filling purposes. The worst part of the road, however, is that section from the top of the hill to the oamp ground, and I suggest that any permanent work that is propoised should be done to that part of the road. Nothing has been done for some time, but something will have to be done during the present summer. I do not want to press this matter unduly, but, as the minister knows, I have taken ia good deal of interest in this piece of road, and I should like to know if it is the intention of the department to make either temporary or permanent repairs or improvements to the Toad during the coming summer.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. gentleman has brought this matter up on *several occasions, and I must say that his ideas are very practical. A year or two ago we considered the advisability of building a sidewalk up to the Banriefield camp. The hon. member drew our attention to the fact that iit would be better to improve the roadw.ay than to build the sidewalk, and he secured estimates to show that wo could improve the road with the same expenditure as that which was proposed to be made on the construction of
sidewalk. The matter i.s now before our engineering department, and I may say that if we cannot expend the whole amount necessary to complete the roadway this .summer, we certainly will repair it, because our engineers report that it is badly in need of repairs.
Militia and	Defence-permanent	force,


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What proportion of the permanent force is now in Bermuda ?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister give at the same time the present location of the different parts of the entire permanent Canadian force ?


Major General HUGHES:: The Royal
Canadian Horse Artillery, the Royal Canadian Dragoons and the Strathcona Horse are, as the hon. member knows, at the front with the engineers and medical corps. We have still a permanent corps, infantry and artillery at Esquimalt. We have permanent forces also at Winnipeg, London, Toronto, Kingston, Quebec and Halifax. The regular Royal Canadian Regiment is at Bermuda.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Royal Canadian regiment now at Bermuda is a part of the Canadian permanent force?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.
Mr, CARVELL:	Can the minister give
approximately the strength of the respective forces?


Major General HUGHES:: I could not
give the exact figures. We are removing some of these troops, but I prefer not to give their destination.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I realize the importance of not divulging military secrets; I am not asking the minister to do that. All the permanent forces that left the country are being paid out of the war vote; there must be but a small proportion of the permanent forces in Canada as compared with a year ago.


Major General HUGHES:: No.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister can give
us the facts. That is why I wish to get the approximatae strength of the present permanent force.


Major General HLTGHES:: I will get particulars for the hon. gentleman. For instance, at Kingston, although the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery have gone to the front, the depot is still there. As soon as

the troops are taken away an effort is made to recruit the force up to full strength. At Halifax we are calling out four companies to replace the men who have gone to the front.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do I understand that when the Royal Canadian Regiment left Halifax for Bermuda the department immediately took steps to recruit a new permanent regiment to be stationed at Halifax?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The permanent troops
are paid out of the war credit vote?


Major General HUGHES:: Only those
who go to the front.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Take those who have
gone to Bermuda.


Major General HUGHES:: That is without the three-mile limit.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is the Royal Horse Artillery, the Dragoons and the Royal Canadian regiment. That would be a pretty formidable force of men. They are paid out of the special war vote. I know a number of infantry men who were recruited in the Maritime Provinces and taken to Halifax afteP the Royal Canadian regiment was sent to Bermuda. I do not know their exact status; I never understood whether they became a portion of the regulars or permanent force. Would the minister tell whether they are paid out of the war vote or this vote?


Major General HUGHES:: These are the troops who are paid out of this vote. They are to replace the men who have gone to the front. Vve are now calling in four new companies from the Maritime Provinces for this permanent regiment.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have sometimes in the past criticised militia expenditures and I have not much regret for having done so. The thing that has surprised me in the whole conduct of the war by the minister is the fact that we have been spending $JS,0o0,000, or $3,000,000 on a permanent force annually and wnen trouble came the men who were really trained, if there were any in Canada, the men on whom a very large amount had been expended year by year, were not sent to He H0n+ but were sent off to spend the winter in the beautiful climate of Bermuda. This is a remarkable thing and calls for explanation, i do not ask the minister to - uvulge any military secrets.


Major General HUGHES:: I am glad the hon. member has brought this matter up, as it gives me an opportunity to meet certain charges, the only 'narges that have been made against me.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not making
charges.
Major general HUGHES:	I have been
charged with being unfriendly to the permanent corps. What I have done is to see that the permanent corps get no favour over the militia corps. We are all tne active militia of Canada. But when the war broke out it was my uesire that the Royal Canadian regiment should not go to the front as a unit but that some of the noncommissioned officers and certain of the officers of this corps should be distributed among the other regiments in order to give them the benefit of their training, because these are simply instructional corps. However, about this time the British Government-there is no harm in saying it- requested that we should send the Royal Canadian regiment to Bermuda and release the Lincolnshire regiment then garrisoning Bermuda. We got the order, we recruited tne regiment up to full strength by the addition of 400 or 500 men, and in four days that regiment was sailing for Bermuda, a feat of which my officers are very proud. They are there yet. If the British Government want them at the front all they have to do is to ask them to go to the front and I am sure the Government of Canada would be only too pleased to accede to the request. From time to time personally and against the judgment of the regularly trained officers of the department I have been endeavouring to pick out some of these good fellows from that regiment and send them with the other regiments; but the officers of the department think tnat the regiment should be kept intact as a body and that if they go to the front they should go as the Royal Canadian regiment.


Mr. C. A. WILSON:: Could the minister explain the retirement of Colonel Alexander Roy, of Victoria?


Major General HUGHES:: He has been
retired on leave, getting full pension. I understand that his retirement was perfectly agreeable to him.


Charles Marcil: Would the minister give some information as to the status of the so-called home guards?


Major General HUGHES:: They are
purely voluntary organizations, splendid

organizations, showing the patriotism and loyalty of the Canadian people.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: They have such
a company in Toronto, have they not?


Major General HUGHES:: They have, I am very glad to say, a company in Toronto.
I had the honour of reviewing them a couple of nights after a certain event.


George Perry Graham: Interviewing.


Major General HUGHES:: I was interviewed first and then I reviewed them and I had the honour of having 20,000 people wait until five minutes to eleven in order that I might review them. They have since formed one of the best regiments in Canada. They had no uniforms last Thursday morning, but on Saturday they marched through the streets of the city in full uniform. The home guard as such are not a part of the militia force, they do not come under the Act. We give them our blessing and wherever we can we lend them some old rifles and furnish targets and ammunition and that sort of thing. That, is all we can afford to give them, they are not under the Militia Department at all.


Charles Marcil: Are they sworn in as volunteers?


Major General HUGHES:: We do not
swear them.


George Perry Graham: They have their ranks have they not?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. If my hon. friend or any one wishes to call himself a colonel or a major, there is nothing in the law to prevent it.


George Perry Graham: I was not sura about that.


Major General HUGHES:: I know tney do ail over. So does the Salvation Army. In order to meet the desire of these home corps all over the country, and very many of them are ex-milit.ia men and officers, we are bringing them under our Reserve Act. Colonel Mason of the Senate has taken a very active part, with Colonel. Geo. Starke, of Montreal, and others, in organizing this reserve. We are now bringing them under the Reserve Act in connection with the militia and while we cannot do very much for the home guard this will give them a sort of status without expense to the public.


George Perry Graham: They purchase their own rifles?


Major General HUGHES:: I have heard they have purchased some very excellent rifles and in some places corporations have purchased rifles and do not know what to do with them.
Mr. iC. A. WILSON: Is Lieut. Col. Ar-inand Lavergne in the active militia or is he commanding a home guard or has he gone to the front or is he still attorney to the hon. the minister?


Major General HUGHES:: Armand Lavergne is colonel of the 61st Montmagny regiment, a very excellent ' regiment-a handsome and excellent colonel.


Charles Avila Wilson: Is he at the front?


Major General HUGHES:: No.


Mr. PROULX:: Did he offer his services to the Minister of Militia?


Major General HUGHES:: He would not offer them to me, he would offer through the regular channel; he is a well posted officer.


Edmond Proulx: I read in Le Soleil, of Quebec, an article reproduced from Maclean's Magazine saying that the transport of the troops had been delayed for a month because a lady had informed the Minister of Militia that a German Zeppelin was in the Laurentian mountains and the hon. the minister wanted to make an investigation before the troops departed from Quebec.


Mr. HAZEN:: What is the lady's name?


Edmond Proulx: The article did not mention it, but it said that she met the minister at the table in the Chateau Frontenac and made an appointment for nine in the evening on the corner of Dufferin terrace, that the meeting took place and the lady informed the minister that a German Zeppelin was hovering over the Laurentian mountains, and that consequently it would be unsafe for the troops to embark.


Major General HUGHES:: I presume the hon. member saw the lady's picture in the paper. She was a very handsome lady, too. But to my mind the picture of the Minister of Militia did not do him justice, but of course my being nervous and bashful in the presence of the lady might account for that glum look they gave me. The hon. gentleman will see at a glance that it would never do to give away these state secrets.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does the department furnish rifles to home guards?


Major General HUGHES:: No. In one or two places where there were ten or fifteen old rifles I understand that the quartermaster general allowed these associations to make use of them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The reason I asked was because I have received a communication from a gentleman in my home town who is trying to form a home guard. He said that he had been unable to get rifles, but wished to continue the organization, and I thought perhaps the department might supply them.


Major General HUGHES:: I am sorry we are not able to furnish these. What town does my hon. friend refer to.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Sackville.


Charles Avila Wilson: Will the minister's answer be the same with regard to the home guard of Montreal?


Major General HUGHES:: The home guard of Montreal is well armed, they have splendid rifles.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the permanent force at Halifax in the same barracks, in many cases, as the contingents?


Major General HUGHES:: No, the permanent force is in the Wellington barracks.


Charles Marcil: Can the minister give us an idea as to the number of volunteer organizations that have been formed since the outbreak of war? I know one has been created in Montreal.


Major General HUGHES:: The hon. member does not mean contingents for overseas, but organizations for militia purposes?


Charles Marcil: The new volunteer organizations that have been authorized. There is talk of forming one in my own constituency, and that is why I am interested.


Major General HUGHES:: There is one
in Toronto, two in Montreal, one in Hull; I do not recall any more. I shall be very glad for the Government and the House to support the organization of a regiment in the county of the hon. gentleman. I imagine that the two counties, Gaspe and Bonaventure, could together form one battalion. Amherst has an organization. I should also like to see city regiments in Sydney and Moncton. We have had these plans on hand for some time, but have not been able to prosecute them on account of the cost.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the strength of the Canadian permanent force greater today than before the war?


Major General HUGHES:: I have not the exact figures, but I think the permanent force is slightly greater. The Royal Canadian Regiment is now kept up to full strength, and in fact nearly all the corps, whereas in times of peace they were not.


George Perry Graham: I should like to ask a question about cadet corps. A good many towns in Canada are largely interested in these corps, which include the younger boys in a great many families. Many of these companies have been complimented by the commanding officers as being more efficient in drill than the regular companies. The cadet corps of course have nothing to do with the Boy Scouts; they are two different things altogether. Could the minister tell us how many cadets we have in these corps, and whether any have supplied volunteers for the front and, if so, how many? I take a great interest in these cadet corps. I think they are splendid organizations.


Major General HUGHES:: I agree with my hon. friend thoroughly. I was very reluctant to reduce the vote for this purpose, but we felt that we should cut down a little the amount for the junior cadets this year, although we have an item in the Supplementary Estimates to keep things going.
I think the cadet corps is one of the most important factors in our militia force. I understand that about 100 boys who have been trained in cadet corps have gone to the front with the Seaforth Highlanders of Vancouver and Victoria, and at the front there will be about ten to fifteen thousand boys who, within the last three years, have trained as cadets. A good proportion of the officers relatively are from the ranks of these associations, and they make excellent officers. I remember seeing a bunch of young lads at Salisbury Plains standing off from the headquarters. I went over to them, ten or fifteen bright, handsome fellows from the Mount St. Louis Institute in Montreal, ' and no regular soldier ever handled himself better than these boys when they marched around the field, and the oflacer said they were just as good in drill. A good many cadets have gone to the front with the Highlanders of Montreal and Vancouver, and a good many from St. Catharines. I have been more than proud to see the splendid results of the cadet training in the boys actually going to the front.


George Perry Graham: I am glad to hear of that. In the casualty list a day or two ago, were the names of two boys from Renfrew and one

of them, perhaps both, had previously been in the cadet corps in that city. Then in the casualty list published last night was the name of a young man now of Montreal, but formerly of Brockville, and I think he first trained in the Brockville cadet corps. My hon. friend from Brockville (Mr. Webster) and myself are both great friends of his father. This young man went with the Highlanders from Montreal.
Royal Military College, ?160,000.


William Cameron Edwards: Before this item carries I want to place on Hansard a few remarks which I am sure will be agreeably received by members on both sides of the House. I may be excused for doing it, inasmuch as the Royal Military College is situated in a portion of the country which I have the honour to represent. I want to call the attention of the committee to the splendid service which* these cadets have given to the country, and the fine spirit they have manifested since this war broke out. In June, 1914, at the close of the college session, 38 cadets graduated from the Royal Military College, and of these two took imperial commissions, two took commissions in the Canadian permanent force, and all of the remainder of the class of graduates entered units of the Canadian militia, and are now on active service either in Canada or abroad. On the outbreak of the war, on the 4th August last, the War Office offered twenty imperial commissions to Royal Military College cadets, and those to whom the commissions were given were selected from the class which had recently graduated and the senior class expected back in September of that year. The twenty commissions were eagerly accepted I might almost say they were quarrelled over, so eager were the cadets who offered themselves for service. These cadets were gazetted to their positions on September 16, 1914. When the Royal Military College opened on the 1st September last, practically every cadet wanted to go to the war, and it was very difficult to make a selection without hurting the feelings of those who would necessarily be left behind. Many of the students who are at the college for the first time wanted to go, but having had no previous military training, this was out of the question. An army class was formed, and was conducted from the 1st September until the Christmas vacation, and the following cadets received commissions, namely: Imperial army, 49, including the 20 that I have already mentioned; Canadian permanent force, 29; oversea contingents, 25, or a total of 103. I have here
the nominal roll of gentleman cadets, including the graduating class of 1914, who have taken commissions since the outbreak of the war, August 4 to December 31, 1914. I am sure it would be of interest to all the members of the House, and as I do not want to take up the time of the committee by reading it, I will ask their consent to having it placed upon Hansard:
Royal Military College of Canada. Nominal roll of Gentlemen Cadets, including the Graduating Claes of 1914, who have taken Commissions since the outbreak of the war, August 4 to December 31, 1914.
Imperial Army.
Name and Regiment.
Arthur Leonard Bishop, Middlesex Regiment. Albert Collum Brooks, Royal Engineers.
Harold Gustave Francis Greenwood, Royal Engineers.
William Francis Howard Tidswell, Royal Field Artillery.
Edward Davey Ashcroft, Royal Engineers. Archibald Gorden Dobbie, King's Own Scottish Borderers.
Arthur Hope Stratford, Bedfordshire Regiment. Hugh Ethelred McCarthy Ince, Royal Field Artillery.
Leonard Alexander Reid, Lancashire Fusiliers. Charles Hamilton Palmer, Royal Irish Rifles. Patrick Alexander Ogilvie Leask, Royal Irish Rifles.
Ernest Denison Black Oxley, North Staffordshire Regiment.
Allen Dixon Walker, Lincolnshire Regiment. Norman Cummings Nelles, Northampshire Regiment.
Cyril Gordon Dodwell, East Lancaster Regiment.
Herbert Stopford Maunsell, R. Warwickshire Regiment.
Harold Oswald Day Wilkins, Bedfordshire Regiment.
Archibald McGoun, King's Own Lancaster Regiment.
Henry Herrick Ferguson-Davie, The Cameron-ians (Scottish Rifles).
Miles Wheelton Brown, Leicestershire Regiment. Geoffry Swaby Ridout, Royal Engineers. Samuel Davis, 1st King's Dragoon Guards. Richard Eric White, Royal Field Artillery. Edward Amherst Forbes Hale, Royal Field Artillery.
Sidney Ford Fisken, Royal Field Artillery. Robert Alexander Shearer Adair, Bedfordshire Regiment.
Geoffrey Holmes, Royal Field Artillery.
Francis John Plunkett Gibson, Royal Engineers. Ernest John Denis Townesend, Royal Filed Artillery.
Henry Taylor Genet, Royal Engineers .
George Evelyn Tinling, East Lancashire Regiment.
Eric Dudley Carruthers, Royal Field Artillery. Harry Adrian Roberts, Royal Field Artillery. Henry George Anderson Giles, Royal Field Artillery.
James Howard Scott, Army Service Corps. George Raleigh Parkin, 6th Service Bn., York and Lane. Regt.
Charles Beverley Robinson MacDonald, Royal Engineers.

Henri de LotbiniSre Panet, Royal Engineers.
Frederick Graeme Avery, Royal Engineers.
Thomas Gordon Fawcett, Royal Engineers.
Reginald Waring Lindsay Crawford, Royal Field Artillery.
Roland Osborne Bull, Royal Field Artillery.
R chard Roland ' Brown, Royal Field Artillery.
Frederick Pole Daw, Worcestershire Regiment.
Kenneth Sanderson Torrance, Manchester Regiment.
Allan Munroe Mitchell, Army Service Corps.
Rob rt Maitland Roy, Indian Army.
Doug'as Miller Ham, Indian Army.
Ronald Hope Kidd, Royal Field Artillery.
Canadian Permanent Force.
Name and Regiment.
Robert Lawrence Smyth, Royal Canadian Ar-til.eiy.
Cecil Ranloph Sircom, Canadian Ordnance Corps.
John Henry McQueen, Canadian Ordnance Corps.
Ralph Otter Geoffrey Morton, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Henry Vernon LeMesurier, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
James Duff Stuart, Lord Strathcona's Hofse (R.C.).
Hugh Esme Erie Cochran, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
John Henry Boulter, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
Donald Archie Grant, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
Alaistair John Crerar, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
William Hugh Wardrope, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
Percy Car nee Fauquier Arnoldi, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
William O way Boger, Lord Strathcona's Horse (R.C).
Joh Garnet Tatlow, Lord Strathcona's Horse (R.C.).
David Whitney MacKeen, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Andrew Rodgie Stewart, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Wiliam El war' Reginald M Tar Stone, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Harold Oswald Neville Brownfield, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Stuart Vernon Cooke, Canadian Ordnance Corps.
Harold A1 xander Campbell, Canadian Ordnance Corps.
Robert Hamilton Harrower, Lord Strathcona's Horse (R.C.).
Walter Findlay Clarke, Royal Canadian Artillery.
* Edward Ross Lethbridge, Lord Strathcona's Horse.
Gordon Byron Howard, Canadian Ordnance Corps.
Arthur Weston Ahern, Royal Canadian Artillery.
Gerald Percy Strong, Royal Canadian Engineers.
William James Whitehead, Royal Canadian Dragoons.
Ernest Hugh Simpson, Royal Canadian Regiment.
William Travis Sapte, Royal Canadian Regiment.
Canadian Overseas Contingents.
Name and Regiment.
Norman Haliday Macaulay, Canadian Field Artillery.

Gordon Thompson Cassels, Canadian Field Artillery.
Philip Waldron Cook, Canadian Field Artillery. William Avery Bishop, 9th Missisauga Horse. Travers Frederick Williams Taylor, 5th Royal Highlanders.
Harold Stratton Matthews, Ganadian Field Artillery.
Francis Fysche, Canadian Field Artillery.
John Stewart Barclay Maepherson, Canadian Field Artillery.
Franklin Sharp Rankin, Canadian Engineers. William Henry Victor Vander Smissen, 3rd Infantry Battalion.
James Kerr Cronyn, 3rd Infantry Battalion. James Alexander Dennistoun, 6th Infantry Battalion.
Charles Bruce Pitblado, 13th Infantry Battalion. William Hamilton Shoenberger, 14th Infantry Battalion.
CharEs Vivian Fessenden, 14th Infantry Battalion.
Nicholas Arthur Sparks, 9th Infantry Battalion. Francis Malloch Gibson, 14th Infantry Battalion. Wil iam George Kerr, 18th Infantry Battalion. Eric Ogilvie McMurty, 24th Infantry Battalion. B'ythe Dupuy Rogers, 6th Fd. Co'y. Canadian Engineers.
Arthur Hawley Archibald Morphy, 24th Infantry Battalion.
Harry Scott Parker, Canadian Field Artillery. John Alexander Ross, 24th Infantry Battalion. Bronard Hunter Tyndall Mackenzie, 24th Infantry Battalion.
Donald Edward Allan Risper, 24th Infantry Battalion.
Grand total, 103.
Every member of this House is interested in the Royal Military College because every province is represented, and worthily represented, by students attending that institution. There are in the Imperial Army list the names of Tegiments which have become famous in the past, and I venture to say that their fame will not be lessened, but will be enhanced because of the addition to their ranks of the cadets of the Royal Military College. We know that since the war broke out several students of the Royal Military College who have gone to the front have distinguished themselves by their valour, and have shed added lustre upon the regiments with which they have become identified. Of all the cadets who were eligible for commissions on the 1st September, 1914, 66 volunteered and were accepted. That represented 77.6 per cent of the attendance at the college, and it is only fair to those who make up the other percentage to say that if they were not included in the 77.6 per cent every one of them wished to join and would have liked to have gone but for various family or other reasons they could not do so. Very many of these obstacles have been removed and the acting commandant of the Royal Military College assures me that fully

50 per cent of the remainder bf the students will likely obtain commissions at the end of the current term.
The attendance at the Royal Military College is restricted. That, I presume, is on account of the accommodation. Only a certain number of pupils can be taken by the college in any one year, hut at the first of this present year they took in 28 additional students in order to fill up the vacancies created by those who have gone to the war. There are 88 cadets in attendance at the college and every one would like to go to the war. The War Office places certain restrictions upon them. They must be of a certain age and they must have been at the college for a certain length of time before they will be allowed to go. I want to pay a tribute to the acting commandant of the Military College at the present time.


George Perry Graham: Name.


William Cameron Edwards: Lt.-Col. Perreau. He has taken a very deep interest in the students and in the welfare of the college, and the results of his work are seen in the rapid progress which the students are making in their studies. I want to pay a tribute to the gentleman who was the commandant of the college immediately preceding Lt.-Col. Perreau. I refer to Col. Carleton. It was a decided acquisition when his services were obtained for the Royal Military College. No finer - gentleman ever set foot in the Dominion of Canada. It was a decided loss to the college when he was requested to go overseas and accept another position in connection with the present war. I hope the time will come when he may return to Canada as commandant of the college. He did much for the college in the short time he was there. As I have said, -every part of Canada is entitled to feel proud because of w-hat has been, -and is being, done -at the Royal Military College, because its students are drawn from every province in Canada and they are reflecting credit on all the provinces from which they come, as well as the college they are attending. We have reason to be proud of the Royal Military College -and its past record, and we have every Tea-son to look forward to its record in the future.
Right here I want to -say a word. I have visited the college, in connection with which there are several buildings, and I must -say that I do not think the classrooms at the present time are what they should be. The students are packed -almost-I was going to say 'like sardines in a box. hut not quite -so closely as that-* 96
but the accommodation is entirely inadequate. If any hon. gentleman wants corroboration of that, I would like him, whenever he is in Kingston, to go over and visit the college for himself, and if he does I am sure he will agree with what I say. Additional dormitories have been provided and that is a move in the right direction. We have a good class of professors, everybody in Canada is proud of the college and its past record, and is desirous of keeping up that record, and the teaching staff -and students -should be encouraged by giving them proper classroom accommodation. I do not know whether there is any portion of this vote that is to he set aside for this purpose or not, but 1 do say that, 'at the earliest possible moment, the buildings where the classrooms are located ought to thoroughly renovated and the students given the -accommodation which they are entitled to. There is every reason why this should be done. The Royal Military -College has been called the " West Point of Canada." It is the only military college we have in Canada, every part of Canada is interested in the obllege and its work, -and I am -sure it is interested in the accommodation of the college and the -appearance of the buildings and grounds. That is partly the reason why I have -advocated very strongly with the present Government, as I did with the past Government, that the -roads around, and in the vicinity of, the college, should be fixed up and put in proper condition, so that people who visit that part of the country will -not have to pass through mud holes in going to or coming from the college. Any person, especially from the United States, or a foreign country, visiting Kingston, invariably crosses over the bridge and visits the college, because it is the only military college we have in the country.
If they pass over good roads and through fine grounds, it is something to our credit. If they pass through mud-holes and over grounds indifferently kept, it is to the discredit not only of that part of the country, but of the whole of Canada, because we are all interested in that college, no matter from what part of Canada we come. I hope the minister and the officials of his department will give this matter of increased accommodation in the class-rooms their serious and earnest attention. I am not desirous of seeing any money thrown away; but I feel proud of the fact that that college is in a corner of my county. I am proud of the work it has done in the past and of the work



it is doing, and I am sure thosehon. members who have visited the place and who have listened to the record that I have placed upon Hansard, will agree with me that the college ought at least to receive every possible consideration at our hands.


Major General HUGHES:: I agree with
every word that has fallen from the lips of the hon. member. I am sorry that the condition of finances at the present time does not justify us in placing in the Estimates a sum to meet the requirements as set forth by the hon.. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards). I fully appreciate all that he has said regarding the splendid service of those [DOT] young cadets and of the graduates. Not only from the present classes, but from the classes of by-gone days, they have turned out in splendid numbers. Among the lists of officers, not only in the Imperial service, but in our Canadian service, are to be found scores upon scores of those splendid young fellows. Already I can recall two who have given their lives for the Empire, young Denison and young Ellis, both splendid lads who graduated from that college.


Mr. NICKLE:: And Carr-Harris.


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. I regret that we are not in a position to give what that college really needs, that is a new set of class-rooms, because the present ones are entirely inadequate. I join most heartily in the words of eulogy that have been uttered regarding Lieut.-Col. Perreau, the commanding officer. Those who know him will give him every credit. He deserves a great deal of credit because he is a young officer of distinction who was most anxious to go to the front and who, if he had done so, and if he had come through safely, would have risen very high in the Imperial service for his magnificent conduct in action. This young officer was left in charge, and he has fully justified the confidence placed in him. I am sure I am voicing the sentiments of all who know that institution.
Militia and Defence-Salaries and wages, $235,000.


William John Macdonald: There is considerable feeling in Prince Eupert in regard to the disbandment of the corps that existed there. I think it was drawn to the attention of the minister last year. A further complication arose during the present year. The department wired to the Commanding Officer of the original corps in regard to recruiting. The facts, as they have been submitted to me, are that this corps existed
fMr. Edwards.]
at Prince Rupert, known as the Earl Grey's Own Rifles. The authority to organize the corps was given in 1910. It is represented that at the inspection of 1913, after four annual inspections by four different inspecting officers who commended the offi ers very highly, the District Commanding Officer said that he was going to recommend to Ottawa that the corps be reorganized as a four-company city corps. The department at Ottawa acted on the advice of the District Officer Commanding, and were proceeding to carry out that idea. Letters of instruction to that end were given to the Commanding Officer of the Earl Grey's Own Rifles, and there was considerable enthusiasm over the organization ' and extension of the corps; but there were apparently some local reasons from some envious sources that caused some questions to arise-that is as the case is represented to me-and an Order was sent from Ottawa disbanding the corps.. On the disbandment of the corps, a public meeting was held to denounce the action of the local parties who, it was alleged, had made the representations. After the corps had been broken up and the arms and equipment sent back to Victoria, war broke out. A Fusilier corps was sent to protect the city, and they are still on the job. Then an attempt was made to reorganize the regiment. That went on during the late autumn. The consequence was that, by reason of the disbandment of the corps known as the Earl Grey's Own Rifles and the confusion that was occasioned thereby, the military interest in the community was considerably disorganized and a great deal of feeling resulted. I would like the minister to state his views in regard to this matter and say whether the representations that have been made to me are correct or not.


Major General HUGHES:: There was some difficulty in connection with the organization in Prince Rupert some two or three years ago. VI will not enter into the details of the causes, because I have heard them set forth by my hon. friend at different times. I cannot pretend to solve the difficulty by repeating them. There is nothing to be hidden so far as I am connected with the matter. It was, I think, a one-company corps and it was disbanded for the purpose of reorganization. My recollection is that it was re-organized, because while I was looking at the troops at Victoria, I met a number of the officers both in the Victoria regiment and in the Vancouver regiment who came from that corps.

I remember two or three of the leading officers. I think the matter is pretty well settled now, and that they are all doing their duty. If the hon. member wishes me to look up the matter, I will do so and bring down the information to-morrow.


William John Macdonald: Here is a letter published in 1914, a year ago:
T have the honour, hy direction, to inform you that a general order authorizing the disbandment of Earl Grey's Own Rifles with a view to re-organization as a four-company city corps will be issued shortly. The present officers of this corps will be placed on the reserve of officers.
It is complained by those men, who were in the Earl Grey's Own Rifles, and who gave considerable energy and enthusiasm to the success of that organization, that they were not placed on the reserve of officers; that they are not now on the reserve, and that they were completely and absolutely disregarded.


Major General HUGHES:: Might I point out to the hon. member that it is the usual custom, when a regiment is disbanded for re-organization to place the officers on the reserve. Otherwise they would be put out entirely. It is only a temporary step. Then those who choose to come in can come into the new organization. The matter is fairly well settled now.


William John Macdonald: That is not the representation that has been made to me. Here is a letter written under date of February 19, 1914:	,
In reference to your letter of February 10th advising me of the proposed disbandment, of Earl Grey's Own R fies, and also in regard to your general order of February 12th respecting recommendations submitted to headquarters for the retirement or removal of officers from Canadian milita, I beg to say that Lieutenant McMordie, Lieutenant Agnew and myself have no desire to be removed from the active militia. I hold a field officer's certificate issued in 1907, No. 12811, and Lieut. McMordie holds a cap-ta'n's certificate, April 15, 1912, No. 2343.
I would be pleased to be informed as to why these removals are being made and upon which officer's recommendation these changes are being considered.
I know of no cause or reason for this being done.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
Alfred Stork,
Capt. E.G.O.R.
He alleges that to that letter no reply was received.


Major General HUGHES:: To whom was it addressed?
96*


William John Macdonald: The District Officer
Commanding Military District No. 11, Victoria. Then on the 29th of April:
Instructions have been received this day from Ottawa per the District Staff Adjutant M.D. No. XI, for the withdrawal of all arms, ammunition, clothing and equipment from the unit under your command.
Will you therefore kindly return all stores to the Ordnance Officer M.D. No. XI, Esquimau, B.C., and mark all cases " Freight colJ lect."
Please give this matter your early attention.
This was done. It is asserted that the disorganization of the military conditions in Prince Rupert, the disbandment of the Earl Grey Rifles, and the 'displacement of the men who had taken an interest in this matter and had done a great deal in military work, was due to representations of local politicians and not to any desire to further the militia interest of the district. The minister intimates that something has been done in regard to the matter. I happened to meet Captain Stork who I know personally-


Major General HUGHES:: Is that the gentleman who went to the front?


William John Macdonald: I do not know. This information came to me over a month ago and did not come direct from him. It is claimed that discrimination was shown in regard to the acceptance of men in the district.


Major General HUGHES:: I remember that when the first contingent was organized the Prince Rupert people were not called on. The officers at the coast did
11 p.m. not accept the contingent from Prince Rupert; they said they felt that that small community required all the men that could be mustered there to prevent raiding. And I understand they had to be supplemented by soldiers from Vancouver, the Fusiliers. But when the second contingent was sent-'the hon. gentleman, no doubt, saw them while in Ottawa-there were, I think, 300 men from Prince Rupert. I know there were a number of officers, because I spoke to them and congratulated them on their splendid appearance. I understood that whatever little friction there had been at first had all been overcome when the war began, that the boys forgot their local differences in the great issue before the country.


William John Macdonald: The peculiar thing is that these instructions were sent to Victoria

after the company was disbanded and before the efforts made at reorganization. Under these instructions Captain Stork was to enlist men. He had enlisted about a hundred when instructions came to him to stop, throwing the whole work into confusion.


Major General HUGHES:: I think that this was because of fear of a raid.


William John Macdonald: But the recruiting was taken from him and placed in the hands of another party.


Major General HUGHES:: I have no record of that. It came from Victoria. Of course, I do not carry all these things in my mind. If the hon. gentleman wants the facts and will come to the office we will be. glad to give them.


William John Macdonald: I can hardly go there and be at the committee investigating the purchase of boots at the same time.


Major General HUGHES:: I am at the office at eight o'clock, and shall be glad to see him then.


William John Macdonald: The hon. gentleman is too generous. As to the number of men who were under arms in British Columbia in various military services, I may say that there seemed to be a great need of men. Something like 4,000 men were kept under arms, not for the purpose of going to the front but for local purposes. And they were so kept under arms for quite a long time. I would like to get the exact cost.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And to what account it was charged.


Major General HUGHES:: We will try to get that. The hon. member will understand that British Columbia is an isolated province, and that it controls our greatest highway. One charge of dynamite properly placed and set off might prevent the crossing of any train from coast to coast for three months. At the time when there was a talk of trouble between the Japanese and the United States people, the United States Government wakened up to realize that every bridge along their transcontinental lines, every pass and tunnel, could be blown up, and probably would be blown up, if trouble should arise. They realized that it would take them at least nine months to repair these bridges, passes and tunnels so that one train could cross. Realizing that the railway through the mountains is in this regard a national asset, we have been guarding it through the mountains and at all exposed points along
l-Mr. MavdonMct]
the way. Then, as to the soldiers at Prince Rupert, all these isolated and important points, Esquimalt, Halifax, Victoria, had to be guarded, especially when fear existed of activity of submarines.


William John Macdonald: Was the cost of maintaining these men and services part of the war debt, or was it charged to local militia charges?


Major General HUGHES:: It is part of the war debt.


William John Macdonald: Would the minister be good enough to bring down a statement of the number of men and the cost?


Major General HUGHES:: I am not sure that we have the figures of cost, but the numbers are given. However, we will endeavour to get the information.


William John Macdonald: The minister^ offer to receive me at his office in the early morning is a seductive proposition, but I am afraid I can hardly intimate to him that I can accept it in these strenuous days.
Militia and Defence-schools of instruction, $140,000.


George Perry Graham: Where are these schools?


Major General HUGHES:: In the large
local centres we have provisional schools of instruction as well as regular schools. In almost every large town in the countrj we have schools for training officers. There are also schools in connection with the universities.


George Perry Graham: They pass the examinations at the local schools?


Major General HUGHES:: Yes. They
have what is called a war class at the Royal Military College now.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Will the minister tell the
committee what arrangements have been made with colleges with regard to military training? I refer particularly to Mount Allison University.


Major General HUGHES:: Nearly all universities in the country have formed what we call an officers' training corps. I should be glad to send the printed particulars to my hon. friend. Sackville already has one; they have a splendid cadet corps.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand that a gentleman by the name of Borden-a military official at Halifax; I do not know his title- is coming to Mount Allison to give military instruction to the students. I understand also that the Government has paid a cer-

tain amount for fixing up a building there for training purposes.


Major General HUGHES:: We are furnishing instructors; I do' not know whether or not we fitted up a hall. I will look into the matter.


William John Macdonald: Will the minister
give the committee some information with regard to a special corps that is being organized, under the auspices, I think, of the Canadian Pacific Railway? I have a telegram here from three boys in my county who want to volunteer for enlistment in this corps, but who do not know how to go about it.	[DOT]


Major General HUGHES:: The corps is
being organized under the leadership of Colonel Ramsey, chief engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I think the corps is to consist of 500 men. Applications may be sent to Colonel Ramsey at Montreal.


William John Macdonald: What is the title of the corps?


Robert Laird Borden: It is a railway
engineering corps, I think.


Major General HUGHES:: Applications
may be addressed to Col. Ramsey of the Overseas Railway Engineering Corps. Inasmuch as I suggest that the boys may send their applications to the hon. member for Pictou, who can forward them to Col. Ramsey.	, . ,


Charles Marcil: What is the corps which
is being organized by Mr. Janin, former city engineer of Montreal?


Major General HUGHES:: That is an engineering corps; they may be seen at any time at the exhibition grounds. We mobilized a brigade of artillery some weeks ago. Some hon. gentlemen had the privilege of seeing them in front of the buildings this afternoon. One company section of about 80 men was made up of third and fourth year men from the University of Toronto. A finer lot of soldiers it would be hard to find; their marching was almost equal to that of the old regulars, although they have been organized only three weeks. I suggest to all hon. gentlemen that they pay the boys a visit; it would be a source of great pleasure and inspiration to them.


Charles Marcil: Have the companies from McGill University gone to the front?


Major General HUGHES:: Some have
gone, others will go.


George Perry Graham: I was informed last night that Col. Ramsey had not obtained his full
complement of men for the engineering corps of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Some of these young men have had experience in railway engineering work, and from what I heard from a Canadian Pacific Railway man last night, Col. Ramsey is going to have a magnificent corps. The minister has to be in his office at eight o' clock in the morning, and in order that he may be good-natured when he gets there I suggest that we pass item 96 and leave 97 and 98-in respect of these some hon. gentlemen wish to make comment or to ask questions-and then adjourn.


Major General HUGHES:: All right.


Robert Laird Borden: I agree with
what the hon. member for South Renfrew said about the engineering corps; I think it is going to be a very fine corps. I may say, in addition to the explanation given by the Minister of Militia-I know something of this, having been Acting Minister for a time-that it was suggested from this side in October Tast that we have in Canada a number of very capable railway engineers and railway contractors, men accustomed to doing things quickly, whose services might be very valuable indeed in connection with the rebuilding of railways that had been destroyed in the course of the war. At that time it was not thought that they were needed, but later-I think it was in February-we received an intimation from the War Office that they would be very glad if such a corps could be organized in Canada. We got in touch with some of the large railway corporations, and eventually it was left to Colonel Ramsey who, I understand, is a very capable man, to undertake the organization of this corps. It was thought that by reason of his knowledge and experience he would be able to do this work more effectively than if it were done by the department itself. The matter, therefore, has been left entirely to him, and from what I have heard of the progress which has been made in organizing the corps, it promises to be a most excellent body of men; I have no doubt that they will do excellent work when they get to the front. The Minister of Militia informs me that applications for enlistment in this corps will be received at the office of any divisional superintendent throughout the country.
Progress reported.	.
On motion of Sir Robert Borden the House adjourned at 11.10 p in.

Friday, March 26, 1915.