1912-01-29

[Stage Direction]
Mr. VERVILLE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 85) to amend the Lord's

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I would ask my right hon. friend who leads the govern-

meat, if the writ for South Renfrew has been issued.


Right Hon. R. L. BORDEN (Prime Minister).: No, it 'has not.	There is
some difficulty with regard to the lists. Some otf the lists of 1911 may be used under the law, but others cannot, at present. I oamnot give the exact date but a little delay is necessary in order that all of the lists may be used.


Wilfrid Laurier: The vacancy in South Renfrew occurred on the 7th of December and the elections in Ontario took place on the 11th of December or four days later. There can be no reason why the lists which were good enough for the Ontario election, should not be good enough now.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not prepared to admit that. I do not know that the new lists were ready at the time the Ontario elections were held.


Wilfrid Laurier: The right hon. gentleman may presume that,


Robert Laird Borden: I do not presume anything, but look to the facts. My hon. colleague, the Secretary of State, (Mr. Roche), to whom I applied for information, informed me that a portion of the lists are ready and can be used, but that another portion could not be used under the law which requires that they shall be prepared or returned to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery at least sixty days before nomination day. That is the difficulty at present.


Wilfrid Laurier: According to -the law, when an election takes place the list in force on nomination day shall be in force sixty days- after.


Robert Laird Borden: The result would be that the election would be held, in some parts of the county on the lists of 1910 and in others on the lists of 1911, so that in some districts a number of men entitled to vote would not be able to do so because the old lists were used.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I might observe to the right -hon. the leader of the opposition that there has been no election in South Renfrew for the Ontario House lately. Consequently no lists were used.


Wilfrid Laurier: I did not say
they were, but- that they would have been used had there been an election.


Mr. CLARKE (Essex).: The objection raised is a very reasonable one. There is no general election


Mr. SPEAKER.: I must call the hon. gentleman to order. This matter cannot be discussed at this stage.


Wilfrid Laurier: 



THE ONTARIO AND MINNESOTA PULP AND PAPER COMPANY.

Mr. TURRIFF.: I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works regarding the Ontario and Minnesota Pulp and Paper Company. I understand that last year the then Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) issued an order to prevent this company from establishing grinding machines on the Canadian side, by which the Canadian pulp wood would be ground up and shot into a sluiceway and run across to the American side, there to be manufactured into pulp and then into paper. My information is that w'ithin thf last couple of months, this company has applied to the present Minister of Public Works (Mr. Monk) for permission to put their grinders in and take the ground wood across to the American side. Is it correct that my hon. friend has waived the rule made last year?


Mr. MONK.: That report is not correct. There has been an application recently for the ratification of the order to which -the hon. gentleman has alluded, but I have not yet been able to look into -the matter. No decision has been arrived at..


John Gillanders Turriff: 1 would ask my hon. friend not to take action in the matter without first giving the town of Fort Francis an opportunity to be heard.



ANNEXATION OF UNGAVA.

Mr. LEMIELTX.: I see a despatch in the Montreal ' Star' of Saturday headed ' Annexation of LTngava Again up for Settlement which states that correspondence has been exchanged between the Prime Minister of Quebec and the right-hon. Prime Minister of Canada. Would tae right hon. gentleman inform the House whether it is true or not?
Mr. BORDEN Correspondence was exchanged, I believe, before the present government came into power.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Not since?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, we have been reminded of that correspondence and asked to give it consideration.



NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAIL WAY- PROPOSED COMMISSION.

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou).: I see it stated in the press that a commission has been appointed to deal with matters relating to the construction of the National Transcontinental railway. 1 desire to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister whether the statement in the press as to the appointment of these commissioners is correct?


Robert Laird Borden: I have not seen the statement and so cannot answer the question. The Minister ot Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) is unfortunately absent to-day; but he will be in his place to-morrow and will be able to give information to my hon. friend with regard to the matter to which he refers.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: - Would the Prime Minister please call the attention of his colleague to the fact that I have asked the question, and, if the statement to which I have referred is correct, ask him to bring down whatever papers there may be in connection with the matter?


Robert Laird Borden: I will direct his attention to it.



RURAL MAIL DELIVERY.

Alfred Henry Clarke: I desire to ask the Postmaster General (Mr. Pelletier) whether an announcement is to be made at an early day as to the extension of the rural mail delivery. I understand that there is tsome question of extending it so that all the roads in a settled municipality may have it. I would ask the Postmaster General if that is likely to be announced, and if so when?


Mr. PELLETIER.: It is not so much a question of extension, but of the making of a well-arranged plan by mapping out each county and not working at random as at present. The question is under consideration.


Alfred Henry Clarke: Will it be announced?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, in due course.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will it be free rural mail delivery?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We will speak about that later.



SOUTH AFRICAN VETERANS' BOUNTY.

Mr. KNOWLES.: I desire to renew my uestion to the Minister of the Interior Mr. Rogers) whether he can accord us any information as to when we shall likely be made aware of what will be in his Bill in regard to South African volunteers' bounty extension?


Mr. ROGERS.: I will have the Bill prepared in a very few days.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 11) respecting the Canadian Birkbeck Investment and Savings Company, and to change its name to The Canadian Mortgage Investment Company-Sir Edmund Osier.
Bill (No. 13) to incorporate the Liver-pool-Manitoba Assurance	Company-Mr. Bickerdike.
Bill (No. 15) to incorporate the Vancouver Life Insurance Company of Vancouver, British Columbia.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill (No. 27) respecting the Security Life Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Coderre.
Bill (No. 57) respecting the Union Bank of Canada.-Mr. Barker.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 80) respecting the Dominion .Trust Company Limited, and to change its name to Dominion Trust Company.-Mr. Macdonell.	.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)	_

Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has Mr. J. G. H. Bergeron been appointed
a commissioner of inquiry in the district of Montreal ?	,
2.	If so, by what minister was he appointed?
3.	What salary does he receive in this inquiry?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The Minister of Marine and Fisheries; The Postmaster General; by order in council with respect to the Department of Customs.
3.	Remuneration not to exceed $15 for each full day's attendance, and reasonable moving and living expenses, and with respect to the Post Department, $15 per diem in addition to actual travelling expenses and $3 per diem for living expenses.


MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS.
*Mr. AMES:: Is it the intention of the government to continue the present Harbour Commissioners for the port of Montreal in office for the current year ?


Mr. HAZEN:: The government has no intention, at present, of making any change in the Montreal Harbour Commission. The powers of the commissioners already appointed to inquire into the public depart-
306;

ments will be extended to include the affairs and operations of the Montreal Harbour Commission. It is the desire of the members of the Harbour Commission that this should be done, and such investigation will take place without unnecessary delay.


INQUIRIES INTO CONDUCT OE PUBLIC OFFICIALS.
*Mr. LAPOINTE (Kamouraska):: 1.	Has Mr. Lawrence Stafford, advocate, of Quebec, been appointed by the government to hold inquiries relating to the conduct of public officers? If so, what is his emolument?
2.	Has Mr. L. Omer Beaulieu, advocate, of Quebec, been appointed by the government to hold inquiries relating to the conduct of public officers? If so, what is his emolument?
3.	Has Mr. Emil Gelley, advocate, of Quebec, been (appointed by the government to hold inquiries relating to the conduct of public -officers, and especially of the Intercolonial? If so, what is his emolument?
4.	Has Mr. Maurice Rousseau, advocate, been charged to represent the government in certain inquiries relating to the conduct of public officers in the district of Quebec? If so, what is his emolument?
5.	Has Mr. Honore Grenier, advocate, of Quebec, been charged to represent the government in certain inquiries relating to the conduct of public officers in the district of Quebec? If so, what is his emolument?
G. Has Mr. William Flynn, advocate been appointed inquiring commissioner or advocate of the government in certain inquiries relating to the conduct of public officers in the district of Quebec and especially in the county of Gaspe? If so, what is his emolument?
7.	Has Mr. Ernest Taschereau, advocate, of Quebec, been appointed inquiring commissioner or police magistrate in reference to the National Transcontinental railway? If so, what is his emolument?
8.	Has Mr. L. J. Blondin, advocate, of Trois Bivihres, been appointed to hold inquiries or to represent the government in some inquiries relating to the conduct of public officials? If so, what is his emolument?
9.	Has Mr. L. P. Crepeau, advocate, of Arthabaska., been appointed to hold inquiries or _ to represent the government in some inquiries relating to public officers? If so, what is his emolument?
10.	Are there any other advocates in the district of _ Quebec who have been charged to hold inquiries or to represent the government in them? If so, what are their names?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes, $10 per day in addition to actual travelling expenses, and $3 per day for living expenses.
2.	Yes. Remuneration not to exceed $15 for each full day's attendance, and reasonable moving and living expenses.


Mr. HAZEN.: 3.	Yes. $15 per day and all reasonable moving and living expenses.
4.	No.
5.	No.
6.	Yes. Post Office Department. $10 per day in addition to actual travelling expenses, and $3 per day for living expenses. Department of Marine and Fisheries, remuneration not to exceed $15 for each full day's attendance and reasonable moving and living expenses.
7.	Yes. Appointed by order in council 16th December, 1911, a commissioner under Part III. of the Criminal Code, Quebec. There is no information respecting his emoluments.
8. $15 per day in addition to actual travelling expenses, and $3 per day for living expenses.
'	9. No.
10. Yes. Wm. L. Shurtliff, J. G. H, Bergeron, Napoleon U. Lacasse, Napoleon Garceau.


SESSIONAL EMPLOYEES.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. MURPHY:
Referring to the government's answer as to the dismissal of sessional employees, reported on page 586 of unrevised ' Hansard ' of the present' session, how many were dismissed by the Speaker and the Sergeant-at-arms respectively, and what were the dates of such dismissals ?
Robert Laird Borden: One was discharged by order of Mr. Speaker, and twenty-eight were not re-engaged by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and one messenger resigned. The dates are as follows:
One sessional clerk discharged, November 10.
17 messengers, not re-engaged, November 15.
3 servants, not re-engaged, November 15.
7 pages, not re-engaged, November 1.
1 doorkeeper, not re-engaged, November 1.
1 messenger, resigned, November 18.
FjXPENDITURE IN DIFFERENT PROVINCES.


Mr. CLEMENTS:: 1.	What has been the total expenditure by, the Dominion government for the last ten years on wharfs, and public buildings, respectively, in the provinces of Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario and British Columbia, respectively?
2.	What is the length of coast line in eaoh of said provinces?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Total expenditure on public buildings and wharfs, piers, breakwaters, &c., (including construction, repairs, and maintenance) :

Public Buildings.	Wharfs, Piers, Breakwaters &c.	Total.Nova Scotia	$ cts. 1,547,440.17 897,555.93 . 5,185,207.90 16,021,273.21 1,958,080.07	$ cts. 3,054,150.68 2,381,247.43 10,461,565.19 5,910,460.88 1,080,405.12	8 cts. 4,601,590.85 3,278,803.36 15.646.773.09 21.931.734.09 3,038,485.19
British Columbia	 Grand Total				
	25,609,557.28	22,887,829.30	48,497,386.58
2.	New Brunswick, 600 miles. British Columbia, 5,000 miles. Nova Scotia, 1,600 miles. Quebec (to Quebec City) 1,600 miles. Ontario, (on James bay), 220 miles. All the above are approximate.
his solemn declaration in due form denying [DOT]-lie accusations of partisanship brought against him and offering to furnish proof on oath of the truth of his defence?


Robert Laird Borden: 


NAVAL SERVICE OE CANADA.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. DEVLIN:
1.	Is the order in council dated August 1, 1910, approving instructions relating to recruiting for the Naval Service of Canada still in force?
2.	Have any circulars been issued by the Post Office Department authorizing certain postmasters to act as recruiting officers?
3.	If so, is it the intention of the government to Teeall all such circulars?
1.	Have any representations been made to tlie government since the 1st October, 1911, by any member thereof against the system of recruiting for the Naval Service of Canada then in force ?
5. If so, what representations were made, and by whom?
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes, on February 6, 1911, to the postmasters in 72 localities.
3.	The matter has not been considered.
4 and 5. Questions irregular.


MR. MEDERIC PICOTTE.
Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	Has Mr. Mederio Picotte, a messenger of the House of Commons, been dismissed?
2.	If so, at whose request, by whom has he been replaced and who recommended the appointment of his successor?
3.	Did Mr. Joseph Morin, Advocate of Montreal, and unsuccessful candidate in L'Assomp-tion. support the request for dismissal of Mr. Picotte?
4.	What are the reasons alleged to justify Mr. Picotte's dismissal?
5.	Was there an inquiry, and was the employee placed in a position to defend himself?
6.	What is the delay in the notice given to Mr. Piootte to leave the service?
7.	Does the government know that the accusations brought against Mr. Picotte of having: taken part in the last electoral campaign are said to be false and foundationless, that the said Mederio Picotte, has given
1.	Yes.
2.	At the request of the member for Joli-ette. The vacancy was filled by the appointment of Mr. Henry Coffin. Mr. Coffin was recommended for employment by the member for Joliette.
3.	Yes.
4.	Active political partisanship.
5.	Yes.
6.	The delay was caused by giving time to the said Picotte to put in his defence.
7.	In this instance the written declaration of the sitting member for Joliette was accepted. The government has nothing to do with this matter. It pertains solely to the House of Commons.


CUSTOMS REVENUE AT DUNNVILLE, ONTARIO.
Mr. LABOR:: 1.	What was the Customs revenue of the port of Dunnville, Ontario, for the year 1910 and 1911?
2.	What was the Postal revenue for the town of Dunnville for the year 1910 and 1911?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	_
Fiscal year ending March	.
31, 1910	$38,577	48
Fiscal year-ending March
31, 1911	   50,410	14
2.
For the year 1910	
6,918	54For the year 1911	
7,644	59


THE PRINTING BUREAU.
*Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Have any increases in salaries been granted to any of the employees of the Printing Bureau since October 10, 1911 ?
2.	If so, to whom, for what reason and on whose recommendation were such increases granted ?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.-To whom, for what reason, on whose recommendation:
W. O. O'Neil, under the 'scale' of proficiency, foreman.
Theriault
0.

X. Leclair O'Meara Millar Lepage J. Ward Butler Pel ton Couvrette W. McGovern W. Archibald G. Sampson A. Smith [DOT]
F. TJhleman F. Mooney A. Lamont Miss V. Beaulne Miss G. Bate Miss C. Brisbois Miss E. Belleau Miss A. Brazeau Miss A. Morin Miss G. Waddell Miss R. A. Boily Miss A. Couturier Miss A. Lajoie Miss Y. Couturier Miss B. Groutx Miss C. Thomson Miss A. Gillam Miss A. Coursolle Miss E. P. Clement Miss C. Goulden Miss E. McGillicuddy Miss L. E. Larkin Miss E, Schinzel Miss M. A. Prudhomme Miss F. Granger Miss L. Dupuis Miss M. Hayes Miss K. Welch Miss S. Proulx Miss E. Villeneuve Miss M. Reilly John Thomson, proficiency King's Printer.
J. H. Foley, proficiency, King's Printer, and certificate from Civil Service Commissioners.
J. A. Langley	"	"	"C. B. Snelling	"	"	"


MAIL CONTRACT AT NEUVILLE, QUE.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Has the contract for the carriage of the mails from the Canadian Northern railway station to the post office at Neuville, county of Portneuf, been cancelled?
2.	If so, for wbat reason and at whose request?
3.	When would this contract expire?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1. No; a notice has been given, as provided for in the contract, that it will terminate on the 14th April next.


Mr. MORPHY.: 2.	In the public interest on representations made by Mr. H. Grenier.
3.	Contract will terminate at the expiration of the three months' notice above referred to.


POSTMISTRESS AT SAYABEC, QUE.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Has Miss Boulay been appointed postmistress at Sayabec Station, county of Rdmous-ki ?
2; What was the revenue of that office for
1911?
3.	Who recommended Miss Boulay to the Postmaster General?
4.	Is Miss Boulay the daugher of the member for Rimonski?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$907.07.
- 3. Mr. H. Boulay, M.P.
4.	The Department has no information as to this.


WHARF AT ST. VALLIER, QUE.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Has the contract been awarded for the works to he done to the wharf at St. Vadlier, county of Bellechasse?
2.	If so, to whom and for What amount?
3.	Wtio were the other tenderers, what was tdie a mount of their tenders, respectively, and when was the said contract awarded?


Mr. MONK:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Alexandre Duchesneau, $11,550.
3.	(a) E. Boulanger & Fils, $11,570; Johnny Gallibois, $12,250; La Cie de Lait-erie de St. Pierre, Go. Montmagny, $12,300; Theophile Beaumont, $12,350; Eugene Bernatchez, $13,300; Misael Bernatchez, $14,000; Daniel James Smith, $15,784; J.
S.	Boivin, Onesime Poliquin, $16,950.
((b) Awarded 'by Order in Council 22nd December, 1911.


POSTMASTER AT ST. ADELAIDE DE PABOS, QUE.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has an investigation been ordered against Robert Molloy, postmaster of St. Adelaide de Pabos county of Gaepe?
2.	What are the charges brought against Mr. Molloy, and by whom?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Active partisanship.
Ob) Dr. Gauthier, M.P.


PUBLIC BUILDINGS IN ALBERTA AND SASKATCHEWAN.
Mr. WHITE (Alberta):: 1. Is the government aware that sites have been purchased and paid for bv the Depart-


Mr. MONK:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Yes.
4.	The Government will proceed with these works as soon as circumstances permit.
5.	To hold the sites for public purposes. LA BANQUE EE ST. HYAOINTHE.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it the intention of the government to investigate the circumstances of the liquidation of La Banque de St. Hyacinthe?


Mr. WHITE (Leeds).: -No.


MR. TANCREDE MARCIL.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Has Tancrede Marcil, of Montreal, applied for a position in any of the departments? If so. to which department ?
2.	What is his position and his salary?


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot answer if Mr. Marcil has applied for a position in any department. If any particular department can be named further inquiry will be made.


Mr. PUGSLEY.: My hon. friend will allow it to stand until the hon. member is here?


Robert Laird Borden: It is no use allowing it to stand, as that is the only answer that can be given at the present time. I have made inquiries and I cannot find that Mr. Marcil has made application in any department. If any particular department is named more definite information can be obtained.


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Carvell) can put another question.


MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSION.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1. Has the Minister of Marine and Fisheries received the following resolution passed unanimously by the Montreal Corn Exchange on Tuesday, January 23, 1911:
Resolved, that, understanding that there is a movement on foot to induce the government to replace the present members of the Montreal Harbour Commission, the Montreal Corn Exchange Association hereby protests in the strongest possible manner against such action and records its high appreciation of the work of the three gentlemen who have done so much for the port since their appointment as commissioners on January 1, 1907.
That, in the opinion of the association, the removal of the present most capable commissioners under the present circumstances, while the work of modernizing the harbour is only partially completed, would be resented by the community of this city and of Canada generally.
2. What action does the honourable minister intend to take in this matter?


John Douglas Hazen: The Minister of Marine and Fisheries has not received such a resolution, but he was present when it was presented to the Prime Minister. In view of the answer I have given to question No. 2 on the order paper to-day it seems unnecessary to answer the second question of my hon. friend.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Is it true that a delegation composed of Messrs. Andrew Allan and R. W. Reford, of the Shipping Federation, Huntly Drummond, Vice-President of the Board of Trade, A. H. Harris, representing the Canadian Pacific Railway, William Wainright, Vice-President of the Grand Trunk, J. E. MacFarlane, of the Corn Exchange, and J. H. Sherrard, President of the Montreal Branch of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, met the Right Honourable Mr. Borden. Prime Minister, on Wednesday, January 24, 1912?
2.	Did that delegation represent to the Prime Minister that the Montreal Harbour Commission is composed of high-class and competent men, whose work has been highly satisfactory, and that it would be a grievous error to make any change when the scheme for the national port is being so satisfactorily carried out?
3.	Was any members of the House of Commons present at that interview?
4.	If so, what is the name and constituency oi said member or members?
5.	Did said member or members ask for the ci&missal of the Montreal Harbour Com mis-sioners? If so, upon what grounds?


Robert Laird Borden: A delegation composed of the gentlemen mentioned, and, I think, of some other gentlemen, did meet the Prime Minister on Wednesday the 24th of January, 1912, and on that occasion gave to the Prime Minister strong commendation of the work which has been carried on by the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1. Has the attention of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries been called to the following article published in the Montreal ' Star,' Wednesday, January 41, 1912-


THE MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSION.
[Stage Direction]
The commercial deputation which approaches the government to-day in support of our excellent and popular Harbour Commission, will speak for the intelligence, the enterprise and the future of Montreal. We have never before had so good a Harbour Commission. It is not partisan in any sense of the term. That is, indeed precisely the reason why certain elements of the community are demanding its decapitation. They insist that it shall he partisan, run in the interests of the party and not in the interests of the habour. It is not the trade of Montreal of which they are thinking but the sordid traffic in posts for persistent partisans.
The benefits which these three Harbour Commissioners have conferred on this city, and on the country as a whole, will not he properly appreciated until they are seen in the long perspective of the future. Still, they look very big even to-day in comparison with the puny efforts of the debating societies and the cumbersome organizations which had previously fiddled with this huge national problem. To sacrifice these successful commissioners to the fury of a victorious political horde, thinking only of the spoil and not at all of the prosperity of the city, would be an act of folly which we cannot believe the ministers are in any danger of committing.
Still, it is just as well that commercial and industrial Montreal, regardless of the party affiliation, should make its opinion known; and that the government should he put in possession of tlie stoutest defence against any ' camp-followers ' who continue to cry ' blood ' and ' boodle.'
2. Is it the intention of the government to accept the friendly advice of the Montreal 'Star'?
Robert Laird Borden: The attention of the Prime Minister has not been called to the article which is set forth.


John Douglas Hazen: May I be permitted to say the same thing so far as I am concerned.	.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The right hon. gentleman has not answered the entire question.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the answer to the question, as a whole, is a very fair one.


DISMISSAL OF EDWARD POULIN.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Has Edward Poulin, an employee in the Customs Department at Quebec, been dismissed ?
2.	If so, for what reason and at whose request ?	_
3.	Has an inquiry been held in the matter?


Mr. REID (Grenville).: The services of Edward Poulin, Acting Preventive Officer of Customs at Quebec, Rave been dispensed with, as they were not ^required during the winter season.
This action was taken by the Department * of Customs after inquiry into the matter by :a Customs Inspector.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 


IN RE SMUGGLING.
*Mr. BAKER:: 1.	Has the Minister of Customs taken cognizance of an article which appeared in the Montreal ' Star ' of January 12, under the caption ' M.P's name is mentioned in a smuggling case ? '
2.	Are the statements as communicated to the Department of Customs substantially as alleged in the said newspaper article?


Mr. REID (Grenville):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
POSTMISTRESS AT ANSE A YALEAH. Mr. LEMIEUX:
1.	Has any charge been made against Madame Proulx, postmistress at Anse a Valeau, county of Gaspe?
2.	If so, has any investigation been ordered?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.


MOTION AGREED WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
For a copy of all correspondence, representations, estimates, letters, telegrams and other documents received by the Right hon. Prime Minister, or by any member of the government, in any way relating to the subject of a oar-ferry service between the province of Prince Edward Island and the mainland across the Straits of Northumberland, and the widening of the gauge of the Prince Edward Island Railway; and also as to the estimated cost of all such work.-Mr. Bmmerson.

Mr. E. N. RHODES (Cumberland) moved:: That, inasmuch as the immigration policy of the government and the several railway companies has for many years been almost entirely confined to the development of western Canada, and largely in consequence of uis policy the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island have not grown in equal degree with the rest of the Dominion, in the opinion of this House, in order to promote uniform progress and *'[DOT]sperity throughout Canada, the government should speedily inaugurate and carry * ut a policy of publicity and immigration lesigned to promote the more rapid development of the said provinces.
He said: Mr. Speaker, It is possible that bon. gentlemen representing constituencies in other provinces of the Dominion outside the maritime provinces will at first view regard tins proposed resolution as provincial; as. one asking special and undue treatment for a particular portion of Canada, at the expense of the remainder.
Upon investigation, however, it will, I believe, be found that the reverse is the case and should this resolution carry and be acted upon by this government, the result would be but a measure of justice-

long delayed-meted out to a section of the Dominion, which has made greater sacrifice in proportion to its wealth and members-to create and develop the Dominion of Canada-than will be found to be the case in any other portion of this broad Dominion.
And further, to my mind, one great cause of the tardy development of these provinces is that their'people have been so unselfish so unprovincial and so patriotic; that, forgetting self, they have given unsparingly of their best to the development of this Dominion, whose very creation could not have come about, but for the courage and foresight displayed by their leading statesmen, who, in iooking to the larger field, largely neglected the one at hand.
At the outset I wish to make it clear to the House that this resolution is not brought forward in any party spirit. Whether the policy of immigration approved by the government which went out of power on the 21st September was good or bad, or whether the policy of immigration pursued by previous governments was good or bad, that policy has been concurred in by hon. gentlemen representing constituencies in the maritime provinces^by their silence at least-and for that reason it is not for us to make any party capital out of the question at all. It is possible, of course, that the special attention which the west has received in recent years is due to the fact that it is only in recent years the west has commenced to develop very rapidly. In the first place I will examine briefly the conditions of population in the maritime provinces, and I will take in this respect the figures of the census of 1901 because the detailed information contained in the census of 1911 is not yet available. As given in the census of 1901 the population was as follows:
Population, census 1901, 893,953.
Nova Scotia	 459,574
New Brunswick	 331,120
Prince Edward Island	 103,259
An analytical examination of the census of 1910, gives us the following result as to the race descent of the inhabitants of the
maritime provinces	in that	year:	
	Nova New Bruns		- P.E.
Scotia.	wick.	Island.English	.. 159,735	104,682	24,043Irish	.. 54,710	83,384	21,992Scotch	.. 143,382	48,310	41,753Others	.. 1,219	1,147	95French	.. 45,161	79,979	13.866German	.. 41,020	3,816	709Dutch	.. 2,941	3,663	242Scandinavian.. ..	.. 6 96	1,292	14Russian	.. 74	68	5Austro-Hungarian ..	.. 99	27	0Italian	285	60	12Jewish	.. 449	395	17Swiss	.. 1,004	37	0Belgian	.. 62	26	5Half-Breeds	.. 87	156	4Indians	.. 1,542	1,309	254Scotia.	wick.	Island.Nova New Bruns	- P.E.Chinese	. .. 107	59	4Negro	. .. 5,984	1,368	141Various origins .	. .. 492	355	47Unspecified	. .. 507	986	56


Totals .. .: . .. 459,574	331,120	103,259
From this table it will be seen that a very large proportion of the population are of British descent. Still more suggestive perhaps are' the figures showing their places of birth. For example iof the 459,574 population of Nova iScotia, 452,786 were born on Britirfi territory. In New Brunswick out of a total population of 331,120, 324,084 were born on British territory. And in the province of Prince Edward Island, out of a total population of 103,259, 102,351 were born on British territory.
Perhaps (even more istriking are the figures showing the percentage of population of these provinces bom in Canada. For instance in Nova Scotia, out of the total 459,574, 435,172 were bom on Canadian soil. In other words all but 6,786 were born on British territory and all but 24,407 were born on Canadian territory. In New Brunswick out of a total population of 331,120, all but 7,036 are of British birth and all but 12,942 are of Canadian birth.
The same proportion is carried out, perhaps in a greater degree, in Prince Edward Island. Out of a total population in that province of 103,259, all but 908 are British born and all but 4,253 of Canadian birth.
Then, taking the total population of the maritime provinces, out of 893,953, all but 14,732 are of British birth and all but 46,597 were born in Canada.
These figures, when reduced to percentages, become still more startling. Of the total population of the maritime provinces born in British territory, 94-8 per cent were born in Canada, and 98-4 per cent, are of British birth.
Taking the figures showing the percentage of population born in each province, I find the follofwing:-
Nova Scotia.. .. New Brunswick , P. E. Island .. Mar. Provinces..
94-7 born in province. 70.	"	"93-5	"	"93-1	"	"
My object in giving these figures in detail is twofold. In the first place, I wish to show how homogeneous is our population and in the second place to show to what a trifling degree that population has been affected by immigration. While these figures are taken from the census of 1901, I have no doubt that the percentage will be found approximately the same in the census of 1911 as soon as the complete figures of that census are available. There has never at any time been any considerable inflow of foreign settlers. Those designated as of French origin are the des-

eendants of those who were left behind after the expulsion of the Acadians in 1755, or of those of them who afterwards returned to the provinces. The Germans and Dutch are in the main the descendants of those who arrived as far back as 1750. The same may be said of the S'wiss. The negroes are mainly the descendants of slave forefathers imported by early settlers. And the other nationalities, represented by a handful of each, are descendants of those who have drifted across the Atlantic one by one into a maritime ship-owning country.
In comparing the area of the maritime provinces with that of Great Britain, I do so in the first place for the purpose of drawing a comparison between the sparse
population of the maritime provinces and the dense population of Great Britain, and in the second place because I believe the maritime provinces are perhaps the best situated portion of the Dominion for a certain class of immigrants from the British Isles. The area of these provinces is almost the same as that of England. England has an area of 50,903 square miles and the maritime provinces are 51,163 miles in extent. Compare then the dense population of England with the sparse population of these provinces. In England which is identical in size with these provinces, we find a population of 605 persons to the square mile, whereas in the maritime provinces there are only 17 to the square mile. Here are the figures in tabulated form:-
Area in Acres.	Area in Sq. Miles.	Population per square Mile.32,578,178 19,070,081 20,327,947 4,749,301 13,483,071 17,863,200 1,397,991	50,903 29,797 31,702 7,421 21,008 27,911 2,184 51,103	605 150 140 213 ' 22 12 47 17Scotland	
Nova Scotia				
New Brunswick					
			
The Maritime Provinces				
			
These figures show the great possibilities of these provinces. England with practically equal area has a population 16 to 17 times greater. Scotland, slightly larger than New Brunswick, has a population 12i times larger. Yet in all respects the maritime provinces compare favourably with the United Kingdom.
Take for instance the question of climate. The south of England lies 6 degrees north of the south of Nova Scotia and 3 degrees north of the extreme north of New Brunswick, the most northerly of the maritime provinces. This makes a great difference in the distribution of light in the favour of the maritime provinces. And, but for the effect of ocean currents, would make a considerable difference in climate. The climate of England is undoubtedly more equable than that of any of the maritime provinces, but I submit we are ahead of Great Britain as regards moisture and the annual amount of sunshine. While the climate of Scotland does not compare favourably in any respect with that of the maritime provinces.
In natural wealth the maritime provinces are the equal in all respects of the divisions of the United Kingdom and the superior in many. Their soil in many parts is of unsurpassed fertility. Under a similar system of agriculture it would yield Mr. RHODES.
as largely as the richest fields even of England. This has been actually demonstrated in many localities. The average hay crop, even with indifferent cultivation, is as large as that of the United Kingdom. Wheat when adequately cultivated has been known to return 40 to 50 bushels to the acre in Nova Scotia. In some sections of that province-in early times-grain crops were grown on the same land, without the use of fertilizer of any kind, for over 30 ye ars consecutively.
The fruit-growing capacity of many parts of the maritime provinces nas been "demonstrated conclusively by practical experiment. The apples of Nova Scotia have long been an important and increasing factor in the English market, and a large percentage of the total shipment from Canada to Great Britain comes from that province. To the growing of small fruits the maritime provinces are equally well adapted. For the production of root crops they are unsurpassed. Their resources in timber are well known, the total quantity exported from the province of Nova Scotia alone in the year 1910 being 214,368,493 feet. Notwithstanding the large cuts and great destruction by fire, these resources are still enormous, particularly in the province of New Brunswick.
The mineral wealth of the maritime provinces from present development, can safely

be said to be very great. The coal deposits of Nova Scotia in particular are practically inexhaustible, and new areas are being discovered. every year. To show the advance-that province has made in the development of these deposits. I will give the figures of the total annual coal product of the province of Nova Scotia for three consecutive decades:
1890	 1,984,000 tons.
1900	 3,238,245	"
1910 (in round numbers) 5,000,000	"
And during the coming year it is expected that one company alone in the province of Nova Scotia, will produce, according to their own estimate, from 4,500,000 to 5,000,000 tons. Iron is only less abundant than coal, and limestone lies everywhere in close proximity to both. The tremendous growth in the steel industry is but an earnest of the future. Gypsum is found in lavish abundance. Gold mining has been a staple industry for 'half a century. Silver, copper, lead, manganese and tungsten have also been found. And in all probability it is but a matter of time when most, if not all these minerals will be found in economic quantities. Petroleum of excellent quality and undoubted quantity has recently been produced in the fields of Albert, New Brunswick, and natural gas in abundance is at present being produced there, some of the largest producing wells in the world having been tapped and their further production will follow with expanding markets. In this connection I wish to give credit to Mr. W. E. McLellan, of Halifax, to whose excellent article on the effect of immigration in the maritime provinces I have had recourse for some of the data and percentages that I have given. Another industry capable of great expansion in the province is that of the fisheries. It is a great source of industry and wealth to us at the present time, but the opportunities in this industry alone are practically illimitable. To show something of the capabilities of the province I have here a table showing the value of commodities of various kinds produced in the province of Nova Scotia in the year 1911, taken from the edition of January 1, of the Halifax ' Chronicle ':
The Products of Nova Scotia in 1911 Yielded More than One Hundred and Twenty-two Million Dollars.
Coal	$17,600,000
Coke	_	$ 2,200,000
Gold, iron and other minerals .. ..	350,000
Gypsum, limestone, &c	 880,000
Building materials	 315,000
Pig iron	 1,500,000
Steel, steel rails, rods, &c	 14,500,000
Fisheries	   8,100,000
Manufactures, ships and freights... 45,500,000
Products of the farm	 25,926,076
Products of the forest	 5,000,000
Game	 200,000
Total	$122,071,076
I regret that I have not the figures of the wealth produced in the provinces of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island in the same year, but I have no doubt that they would show the same strikingly large proportion in comparison to population.
I have spoken very briefly of the manifold resources of the province of New Scotia, and it would seem to me that tha extent and quality of these natural r sources, coupled with the sparsity o< population, would prove sufficiently attractive to the immigrant. But there is a third advantage possessed by these provinces which we must not lose sight of. They occupy a strategic prosition geo-gaphically. Nova Scotia has been called the wharf of the Dominion, jutting out as it does into the Atlantic ocean, with each of its eighteen counties bordering on the sea. The same advantage is enjoyed by Prince Edward Island and in a very great degree by the province of New Brunswick. Then we have the great natural harbours of Halifax and St. John, among the best in the whole world, each as free from ice as the great harbour of New York, and a full day's sail nearer Europe than any other port on the continent. They are the oldest settled portions of the Dominion, and their social and economic conditions closely resemble those of the old world. Furthermore, for a portion of the year, there is a large flow of immigration through the ports of Halifax and St. John. In spite cf all these admitted advantages, during the past decade we have not held even the natural increase in population.
I find that the population returns of the Dominion, as disclosed by the last census, reveal the following figures:

211:0


POPULATION OF CANADA BY PROVINCES.
[Stage Direction]
Alberta	
British Columbia	
Manitoba
New Brunswick ....: year to the British Isles, only one went from the maritime provinces, notwithstanding the fact that the maritime provinces represent slightly more than one-eighth of the total population of the whole Dominion. Now, I find in the annual statement of W. J. White, Inspector of United States agencies, a few lines which I wish to quote, indicating the nature of the work being performed by the agents of the Interior Department in the United States. This is one paragraph:
The settler of to-day is not the pioneer that his farmer neighbour was, but he may possibly take with him more capital; in fact this is necessary if he wishes to keep himself abreast of the advancement of the man who went to any of the provinces-Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta-A few years ago.
He defines the word ' provinces ' to be Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta. In another place he says:
The farmer with means, the man who is able to dispose of his farm in Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Missouri, or any of the western states is satisfied that western Canada has passed the experimental stage in the mater of agriculural existence.
Take the concluding paragraph of this report:
We have continued advertising in the same manner as before, which consists in the securing of space in the advertising columns of the farm and country weeklies and also placing notices from time to time. The work of the agents throughout the territory has been satisfactory in every way. Our literature deals with western Canada as a whole, including British Columbia. It is carefully revised every few months, anti no old literature is allowed to be placed in the hands of the public.	.
That statement speaks more eloquently than any words of mine could do as to the nature of the propaganda which at present is being carried on in the United States. I find in the same report, for example, the annual statement of the Canadian immigration agent in Belgium:
I have this year added 37-6 schools to the number already large (3,900) in which the atlas of Canada is used in geography lessons. I take a special interest in keeping the winter night schools for adults well supplied with every_ kind of our literature, and the monthly edition of west Canada is regulatly furnished to every teacher who applies for it, either in French or Flemish language.
The special literature which he refers to there is a magazine dealing entirely with western Canada. It points out more eloquently than I could the character of the advertising work of this government in its various publications. I have here a few leaves torn from several well known publications. The first is a leaf from the ' Canada Gazette,' of London, England, Mr. RHODES.
published on December 14, 1911. It is a whole page, headed * Canada.' The picture shown is a very large barrel headed ' The flour barrel of the world.' The background is a field of wheat, and on the hoops of this barrel appear the words, ' Two hundred million acres of wheat land free for settlement.' It is hardly necessary for me to add that this advertisement is one dealing with the prairie provinces of Canada. Here is another page taken from the magazine ' Canada,' published in Great Britain, issued December 9, 1911. This shows a large field of wheat in a prairie country, with a three horse reaper and binder, and a prosperous looking Canadian wearing a Stetson hat, pointing out to a prospective Engilish /settler the merits of this beautiful farm. The scene is one which is typically western. Take another page from the magazine ' Canada,' of February 20, 1909,	' Free land
for all in Canada. 160 acres of government land free for farming,' and so on, dealing entirely with western land. I have also a page taken from the ' Standard of Empire,' of Friday, December 1, 1911. It says, ' The British farmer sees a good thing in Canada. For full information, free maps, and pamphlets, apply to J. Obed Smith, Assistant Superintendent of Immigration, 11-12 Charing Cross, London.' What is the picture? A western prairie scene with elevators in the distance, wheat growing in the foreground, three or four reapers and binders gathering the harvest, a typical western scene. Take another page from the magazine ' Canada,' of January 29. 1910. It is headed ' Free land for all.' The advertising scheme is a barrel of flour, at one end of which appears the words ' Manitoba No. 1 Hard XXXX flour.' On the side of the barrel is a picture and map, showing the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, bounded on the east by Winnipeg, on the north by Prince Albert and Edmonton, on the west by Calgary, and on the south by Areola. Below appear the words: ' The flour barrel of the world, Canada.' A man knowing very little about the geography of this country would suppose, from this government publication, that Canada was composed of the three provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I hear some of our western friends saying, Hear, hear, to that statement. Here is one more page taken from the magazine ' Canada,' of December 5, 1908: ' Free land for all in Canada. Free farms in the golden west.' It goes on in a .similar tenor.
Now, coming down to the question of expenditure for immigration, I find, upon examining the Auditor General's- Report, for the year ending March 31, 1911, at page J-2, these figures:

INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Expenditures, Year Ending March 31, 1911, Auditor General Report, J-2.
Immigration salaries	 319,298 86
Contingencies		755,271 1-9
Winnipeg and St. Boniface Hospitals	 4,559 50
Total	$1,079,129	85Civil Government salaries.. ..	833,373	42Contingencies	
56,732	66Total	
$890,106 08
A very large portion of the cost of the Interior Department is chargeable properly to the immigration branch, am-d I contend that it deals almost solely with the three provinces of Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan. It is impossible for me to define just exactly the proportion, but I find, by way of illustration, as disclosed at page J-13 of the Auditor General's Report, that foT the salaries of officers and clerks of the immigration branch, 80 in number, the expenditure was $94,310.61. Deducting abatements- in the department, the total was, in round numbers, $90,000. Take salaries, for example at Ottawa, a large proportion of which must properly be charged to the immigration branch olf the Department of the Interior under the following heads: minister, deputy minister, assistant deputy minister, -staff in the deputy minister's office, and minister's office, *accountant's branch, -a-nd secretary's branch; they -cost last year, in round numbers, $100,000. I find -also, under the head of ' Canadian National- Parks,' all located in Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia, that $146,671.60 was expended. It is tru-e that these are national parks, and as such they are for the whole of Canada. We find no fault whatever with that expenditure, but as a matter of fact the whole of that sum happens to be expended in these provinces and no portion of it reaches the maritime provinces. I find, under the heading of ' Miscellaneous costs litigation,' -an. expenditure of $7,520.99, and I venture to express the belief that no portion -of -that m-oney found its way to the -maritime provinces. The total expenditure last year in the Department of the Interior amounted to $4,829,520.69, -and I believe I am within the estimate when I state that at the very least $2,000,000 of that expenditure is confined- almost entirely, if not entirely, to the western provinces and -that no portion of it reaches the maritime provinces-. I -could give illustrations of a li-ke nature showing the policy which h-as -been -pursued by various governments in this country, but I -believe I have given -sufficient to ishow the direction which it has taken and that I could gain nothing by multiplying evidence of a similar kind.
We would have -sufficient to complain of in the maritime provinces if this expenditure had prevented us from receiving -a -fair share of the immigration to this country, but -it h-as another -objectionable feature and one which be-ars very hardly upon the people of the maritime provinces, that is that it not only takes aw-ay from us a portion of the immigration which is properly ours, but it -attracts to the western provinces a great -many of our sons and daughters too, who can toe ill-spared from the maritime provinces. There is the additional fact which, I sometimes believe, pe-o-ple resident in the west -are inclined to overlook, -and it is that -the great railway corporations of this country, the Canadian Pacific railway, the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific are carrying on a propaganda of advertising at -a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars with the view of -attracting population to the prairie provinces. Why? Because th-ey have land to sell and they have som-e 2,000 miles of railway -over which to haul people, and out of which they can make a profit, from the seaports to the interior. I contend th-at if not one cent of money were expended from this day forward on -the part of the Dominion government by way of immigration advertising, the money to -be expended -by these various railway corporations in their own interest would be more than sufficient, with the impetus which immigration has already in the west, to -carry the development of th-e western country along veiy r-apid'y.
I ia-m only going to give one illustration to this House of the nature of the -adver-ti-sing which is carried, on by the great railways. I have here a pamphlet circulated by the Harrison Agency of Philadelphia, -an agency that is only enabled to exist by reason -of the fac-t th-at it is subsidized by the Canadian Pacific railway and by certain towns in the west. This agency h-as issued -a pamphlet for circulation iin th-e United States -and -accompanying this pamphlet is a map of North America. It gives th-e' provinces beginning with those in -the west, first British Columbia, nex-t Alberta, then Saskatchewan, then Manitoba, next Ontario, -and, on the extreme east, Quebec. The maritime provinces do not -appear on this -map at all. One of the sad features in connection with -this advertisement, to -those who -come from th-e maritime provinces, -at all events, is that th-e live, bright, up-to-date man who is in charge of this- immigration bureau is one of our -sons from th-e maritime provinces.
I have very briefly, Sir, shown in the first place the nature of our population -and I h-ave recited -some of the conditions of the maritime provinces-, -sufficient to show th-at there is a state of things there which requires to -be re-medie-d, and it seems to me that the remedy lies in -a pro-paganida of advertising. I believe that that propaganda

will have to be assisted very materially, in justice, to the maritime provinces, by this government. The criticism has sometimes been launched that the people of the maritime provinces were too much inclined to look to the government. One former Nova Scotian said to me on his return from the west: The people of the maritime provinces are too much inclined to look to the Lord and the government for prosperity. Whether there is any truth in that criticism or not, at all events for the past two or three years the maritime provinces have endeavoured to take themselves ont of the rut. In St. John, New Brunswick, there was established by the local government, in 1909, an immigration bureau. But, I find that the sum at the disposal of the government of the province is very limited. In the fiscal year 1909 the total sum expended at the St. John office was $2,231.14, and at their London, Eng., office, $2,784.55, making >a total for the province upon immigration work of $5,015.69. The returns for the fiscal year 1910-11 were not obtainable by me in the library, but 1 have no doubt that they would show a comparatively small increase over the figures I have named.
The reason why more money is not expended by the maritime provinces is because their revenues are so very small that more cannot be allotted for this purpose, but there is a _ strong disposition on the part of the maritime provinces to carry on a propaganda which will bring increased population to them. Premier Fleming of New Brunswick has recently made a suggestion to form a reunion association along lines similar to that which has I believe worked so successfully in the city of Winnipeg. A number of philanthropists there have each guaranteed a certain amount, and a portion of the capital sum is advanced to worthy immigrants for the purpose of bringing out their wives and families from the mother country. In the province of Nova Scotia some immigration work has been accomplished and with regard to the expenditure of Nova Scotia on immigration the secretary of industries in that province writes me:
Since the inauguration of the department, the expenditures on immigration work both here and in Cape Breton by the provincial government, including the salaries and expenses of tbe officers of the agent general, which approximate yearly between seven and eight thousand doHars, were in 1908 twelve thousand dollars; 1909, seventeen thousand dollars; 1910, twenty-three thousand five hundred dollars; and 1911, twenty-three thousand dollars, which sum includes all expenses for advertising.
_ The work in that province has been going on for some two or three years! but with that limited amount of money it must be patent to every hon. gentleman that very . Mr RHODES
little can be accomplished. I believe that the facts as given this afternoon are sufficient to indicate that the maritime provinces have never received anything like a fair proportion of the money which has been expended on immigration in this country. It may be difficult to find out just how much should be allotted to the maritime provinces, but I throw this out by way of suggestion: the population of the maritime provinces as disclosed by the census of 1911, is 937,949; the total population of Canada is 7,202,122. That means that in the maritime provinces we have a little more than one-eighth of the total population of the Dominion of Canada, and that being the case it would appear to be just that one-eighth of the total amount of money expended for immigration in Canada should be expended to bring immigrants into the maritime provinces, and one-eighth of two million dollars, which I think is a low estimate of the immigration expenditure, would amount to the sum of $250,000 per year. I am not so much concerned as to how this money should be applied; that is a question of important detail which can be dealt with 'better by those who are more familiar with it, and perhaps it mav be that the only true method of finding otit how it should be employed would be to have an investigation into the whole matter. In view of the fact that we have immigration machinery in two of these provinces at least, it would seem to me that the case could be met by this government appointing one immigration commissioner for each of the three provinces with an office in London, England; that these agents should be supplied with assistants all of whom should be men familiar with the needs of these various provinces, and that possibly the machinery existing in the provinces could, with some slight improvement, be sufficient to take care of that end of the immigration question.


Mr. EMMERSON.: The hon. gentleman made a statement with respect to the expenditure by the Immigration Department in connection with the literature, and I understood him to say that within a certain period upwards of $900,000 had been expended, and that of that sum the proportion relating to the maritime provinces was $300,000.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I said $13,000, was the total sum expended on the provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Now, Sir, the character of immigration advertising which has been sent out by this government is almost entirely concerned with the free farms in the west. It is true that in various publications issued by the Dominion government a description appears of all of the provinces of this Dominion, including Nova Sco-

tia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, giving the nature of the products, the population, the climate, and so on, but there is always the inducement held out to the immigrant that if be comes to this [DOT]country he gets one hundred and sixty acres of land free and in order to avail himself of that opportunity, he must go to the west. The character of the publicity which should be given to the maritime provinces is entirely different. We have no free lands to give away in the maritime provinces; there is veTy very little Crown land, and for the purpose of settlement that is practically a negligible quantity. Any publicity with respect to these provinces must deal with our resources and he directed largely to the purpose of bringing in capital to develop our resources, to enlarge industries Which already exist, to create new industries, possibly to take over [DOT]our vacant farms or to help in the purchase of farms from farmers in the maritime provinces who are perhaps not farming on the very best lines.
I have no doubt that representatives of Ontario and Quebec will wonder why it is that when I proposed this resolution, I did not mention these provinces. I may say that in the first plaice, looking at the census returns, and seeing the magnificent growth oi the population in these two prov-inees, that was evidence they were not being neglected. But, Sir, there is another reason: the province of Quebec and the province of Ontario are wealthy. We find that the revenues of the province of Ontario are sufficient to enable that province to open a magnificent immigration office in London which is described in ' Canada ' for January 13, 1912, and I will read one paragraph from that article:-
With tlie New Year the Ontario government entered into full possession of its reconstructed headquarters in the United Kingdom, which occupy a commanding position at 163 Strand, near Somerset House, and of which the government now own the site until 1950. The building has been entirely reconstructed. Not only does it present an attractive exterior to the passer-by, but the interior space on its five floors has been so economically used that the building can welcome its oversea visitors in a well-appointed reading room, and can show the prospective British emigrant or investor fine samples of Ontario's production in agriculture, fruit growing, lumbering, mining, &c., and the attractions it offers to the sportsman and the tourist.
The article goes on to describe the great length and splendid equipment of this building. But I shall not weary the House with details. Let me mention, however, that in the year 1911 over 1,000,000 pamiphlleits, handbooks, &e., were sent away by mail and parcel post, describing the advantages of the province of Ontario. I am inclined to believe that the Ontario government in postage alone, for
the distribution of that literature, has expended more than the largest amount spent by the province of New Brunswick in any one year and, perhaps, nearly as large as that expended by the province of Nova Scotia in any year out of its sparse revenue. The province of Ontario has also opened an office in Belfast, Ireland, and has a representative there, besides special immigration agents whose duty it is to travel all through the British Isles describing the advantages and attractions of their province to prospective settlers.
I find that the wealthy province of Quebec has opened a splendid office in London. I find, also, from the last annual financial statement of that province, that it announces a surplus of something over $900,000, and that, deducting extraordinary expenditure which was taken from the revenue of the whole year, there is an actual net surplus in cash of over $600,000 in that province in one year alone. Contrast that with the condition of the maritime provinces where every one of the three local governments is struggling practically with a deficit every yeaw
As I stated at the opening of my remarks, I am not bringing forward this resolution in any factional spirit. I do not-and in this I believe I express the sentiment of the' people of all the maritime provinces-object to any expenditure in any other province in this Dominion. We rejoice in the success of the other provinces and in the efforts made to increase their prosperity, and we do not ssk that the expenditures in any one of them should be curtailed in' any material degree. All we ask is that a fair proportion of the money expended by this Dominion to encourage immigration shall be expended m the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince. Edward Island. We do not ask this as a matter of favour but as a matter of justice. In this connection I would draw attention to an article which appeared in the Winnipeg ' Telegram ' of October 30. last. In that 'article the writer says:
It will be quite in order for tlie Dominion government to study the situation of the maritime provinces and to devise, if .possible, a more aggressive policy of immigration for the benefit of those highly favoured sections. Canada wants the maritime provinces to share in the general progress which is marking its history. There is no reason under the sun why they should not attract and hold their share of the stream of immigrants coming yearly to onr shores.
The difficulty I have experienced, Mr. Speaker, is not in lack of material, but on the contrary in selecting out of the abundance of material at hand sufficient to con-

vince the House without trespassing too long on its time and attention. I trust, however, I have made out a case which will commend itself to this House and the government. If some such treatment as I have suggested is meted out to the maritime provinces, the added stimulus which will be given to the feeling of hopefulness and sturdy optimism, which are already making their presence felt there, will make for such development as will place these provinces on equal footing with the most prosperous of any in Canada. Not only will the benefit inure to the maritime provinces, but we can then accomplish our full share in making for that growth and development which will-I believe-before the middle of this century make Canada the wonder and admiration of the world.


Mr. R. BICKERDIKE (Montreal, St. Lawrence).: I do not rise to criticise in any way the very eloquent speech made by the hon. gentleman who has just addressed the House (Mr. Rhodes) in urging on this government the claims of the maritime provinces and particularly of his own province of Nova Scotia. But a similar argument would apply to the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. I think that all our eastern provinces have been neglected to a certain extent by the rush to the great west; but why I rose particularly is to point out again to the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Rogers) some defects in our present Immigration Act. Clause 28 of that Act provides that immigrants coming to Canada shall be inspected and examined on landing in this country. But the ground I take is that they should 'be inspected and examined before being allowed to sail from the other side. If that were done, a great many cases of hardship and a number of serious divisions of families would be avoided. There is one case to which I would draw attention. A father and mother and five children were about to land in this country when it was discovered that the youngest child, some four years old was afflicted with Trachoma. The father remained in this country but the child had to be sent back and naturally the mother had to go back with it. Now, if that family had been inspected on the other side before getting on board the immigrant ship, that separation would have been avoided. I shall not detain the House but simply wish to point out two or three sections of our Immigration Act which ought to be amended. In fact I think the whole Act might well be burned and a new one drafted. Take for instance the provision regarding the amount of money which an immigrant must have before being allowed to land. Every immigrant desiring to enter Canada must have in his possession $50 during certain months Mr. RHODES.
instead of $25. But why should a good man, a desirable immigrant, be obliged to have $50 in his pocket at any time. Had such a provision been in force years ago, when I was a boy, there are manv in this House who would not be now in this country.
If a good man came with only $10, I would let him in, and if a tad man came with $5,000, I would keep him out. I think there ought to be some way of getting over that requirement. There are some people who are exempt from it-farm labourers and domestic servants; but if a man is an engineer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, he cannot come in except under that regulation. Another regulation is that no immigrant of Asiatic origin shall be allowed to enter Canada unless in possession of $200. According to that, if a man is born in India or any other part of Asia, and wants to come to Canada to spend the balance of his life here, he cannot come into this country unless he has $200. If he is not a desirable citizen, the possession of $200 will not constitute him one. I wish to draw the minister's attention to these points, and I hope he will give them his consideration.


Mr. W. F. CARROLL (South Cape Breton).: Mr. Speaker, the resolution which has been introduced by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) is one of great importance to every maritime province man, and for that reason I desire to make a few observations upon it. I congratulate my hon. friend from Cumberland on his very able presentation of the case, to which he must have given a vast amount of study. I have very much pleasure in supporting the resolution. My hon. friend has spoken of the immigration policy of the late government, and of other governments with respect to western Canada. Personally I do not think there has been too much money spent in promoting immigration to the west, but there has not been enough money spent in bringing the maritime provinces to the attention of European countries. Not only have we had very little immigration into these provinces, but we have not been successful in holding our own people. It is of vastly more importance to the maritime provinces that we should retain our native-born population than that we should bring in numbers of undesirable immigrants from Europe. We in the eastern section of Nova Scotia, in the industrial portion of the island of Cape Breton, have not very much to complain of. The population in the constituency which I have the honour to represent has almost doubled in the last ten years. What surprises me is that my hon. friend from Cumberland, with all the attention he has given to this subject, has suggested no cure for the loss of population we have had in Nova Scotia for the last ten or twelve

years. What is the use of this government or any other bringing population into the prairie provinces of the west if their products are allowed to rot in the fields? There is one cure as far as the maritime provinces are concerned, that is, getting better and larger markets than we have at the present time. It will benefit the maritime provinces little to bring in a thousand or two thousand or ten thousand fishermen from Norway or Denmark and place them on our shores if the fish they catch are allowed to rot on the coast because they can get no market for them. Mr. Edward Blake once said that the great needs of Canada were men, money and markets. Last year the Liberal government at Ottawa endeavoured to get larger markets for us; but what was the attitude of the political friends of the hon. member for Cumberland? What was their attitude when the Liberal government of Nova Scotia sought to introduce capital into that province, and to amalgamate all the coal mining companies which we had previous to 1894? The coal trade was dead; there was nothing doing. The coal fields were there, but there was very little capital to operate them, and our available market was very small. The late Finance Minister, Mr. Fielding, then Premier of Nova Scotia, conceived a plan whereby American capital would be introduced into the province for the purpose of developing our coal mines, and what was the policy of the political friends of the hon. member for Cumberland on that occasion? Why, Sir, they went up and down the country decrying this attempt of the Liberal government of Nova Scotia to introduce capital to develop our mines.
And why did they decry it? Because, forsooth, some of that capital was coming from the United States. As a boy in those days I can well remember the great oratorical efforts made on behalf of the Conservative party to impress upon the people of that province how awful a thing it was to introduce American capital to operate our coal mines. They told us the Americans would come in and would close down our mines; they told us it was a disloyal thing to introduce this capital; in fact, attending a Conservative meeting, you could almost hear the bullets of American rifles whizzing by your ears. Notwithstanding their opposition, that measure was carried in the Nova Scotia legislature. But the friends of of the hon. member for Cumberland were not satisfied. They sent a delegation to Ottawa to try to induce the Conservative government that then controlled Dominion affairs to veto that legislation. But, notwithstanding, the legislation remained; the government here at Ottawa allowed it to stand. And, as a result of the legislation and of the 'Yankee dollars ' introduced into the province, we saw the greatest industrial progress in that province that has ever been witnessed in any part of Canada. This
took place in the island of Cape Breton. As a result of that movement the markets of Montreal were captured for the Canadian coal trade; and to-day, it is not a question of selling our coal in the Montreal market but a question of getting the coal there.
Now, last February something was attempted to be done which, to my mind, would have helped out the province of Nova Scotia very materially. As I have shown, we were opposed by the friends of hon. gentlemen opposite when we tried to bring in American capital, and we were told that our action was disloyal. Last year, we attempted to secure the American market. And the very same argument was raised against us by the political friends of hon. gentlemen opposite. We were told in Nova Scotia-as, I presume, the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) told his constituents^that, while it was all right to get a free market in the United States for our lobsters, it was a disloyal thing, a trampling of the Canadian flag under foot, to attempt to get our codfish and mackerel into the American market free of duty,-a truly marvellous situation. Now, the only part of our Nova Scotian fishing industry that is upon a footing such as every Nova Scotian would desire is the lobster fishery. And I do not think it takes a very profound mind to understand the reason why. The reason is simply that we have free access to the American market for lobsters. I just pointed out that the industrial centres of Cape Breton had a great deal of prosperity in the last eight or ten years. It was not in the mining centres that we lost population. Where then was that loss? In the last redistribution of seats in Nova Scotia where did we lose? It was found that the counties of Queens and Shelbourne had to be joined together and given one representative because" their population was not sufficient to entitle them to two representatives. And these are both fishing counties. And the same is true of the county of Victoria, an almost entirely seabound county, which was attached for purposes of representation to a part of the then existing county of Cape Breton.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: With the hon. gentleman's permission I would like to ask him a question as I was unfortunately unable to be present at his opening remarks. Do I understand that he objects to the terms of this resolution?


William F. Carroll: I do not.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. gentleman is in favour of it?	[DOT]


William F. Carroll: Very much so.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Glad to hear it.


William F. Carroll: And as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Rhodes) will see in ' Han-

sard I congratulated 'him very highly on his very excellent efforts. I was speaking of the fishing counties. I think it is a very pertinent fact that Queens, Shel-bourne and Victoria whose principal industry of fishing were the counties in which we lost population. And why? I take it to result from the fact that our fishermen couid not find sufficient markets for their fish. We have a fair market. We sell some fish in Ontario and some in Quebec, but very little. I think it was Joseph Howe who said that if you threw a grindstone into the Bay of Fundy it would naturally drift into the New England States. Mr. Speaker, that is our natural market for our natural products, it is our natural market for the fish taken along our coast. It is for that reason, in my estimation, and I believe in the estimation of every man who has given this subject consideration, that the fishing counties in Nova Scotia have lost population. Last year something was going to happen which .did not happen- unfortunately, as I believe, for the province of Nova Scotia. Years ago we secured capital for mining development though we were opposed by hon. gentlemen opposite. We attempted to get the markets, and we were opposed by hon. gentlemen opposite. And in my opinion, without that money and without those markets it is absurd to try to get more population into the province of Nova Scotia. But we were told that this effort to secure reciprocity for the benefit of the fishermen was a disloyal thing, an awful thing. Why, in the riding of South Cape Breton which I have the honour to represent. I heard the gentleman who opposed me, speaking at a large meeting in the town of Glace Bay, attended by perhaps nine or ten thousand people, tell these people that the savage customs which existed in the United States of hanging and burning negroes would follow in the wake of reciprocity should reciprocity be approved by the Canadian people. Such were the arguments put up against reciprocity, and such were the reasons, I believe, which induced the people of this country, including a large proportion of the people of Nova Scotia, to vote against reciprocity.
Now, I agree with the hon. member for Cumberland when he tells us that we have a great country in the maritime provinces. I agree that there is no better country in the whole of Canada than the little province of Nova Scotia. But I do not agree with their policy. Or rather, I am in favour of the policy that these hon. gentlemen have been trying to block for the last sixteen years. Now, what is the use-I put it in all fairness to my hon. friend from Cumberland-what is the use of trying to induce more people to come to Nova Scotia under existing conditions? We have not the Mr CARROLL.
men we formerly had employed in our fishing industries, because we have not the markets.
We have our coal mines, and we have a great many men employed in them, because we have a market for our coal. It is true that in some parts of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island there are sections of country becoming depopulated; but we are not actually losing the people, because +hey are going to the industrial centres. What is the use, therefore, of bringing in any more men? At what employment are we going to put them? Are they going to engage in profitable farming? I am sorry the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes), while dealing with this question, did not tell us that the Liberal government of Nova Scotia has done something to induce immigrants to come to our shores. It is true they have not done much, the reason being the small revenue which the government of Nova Scotia has at its disposition, and which prevents them from doing as much as they would like for the development of the province. But again I ask, where are we going to place those men? Are we going to put them in the lumber camps? Why, Mr. Speaker, we have not now. sufficient market for our lumber, and we cannot get freely into the United States market. Last year, I believe, the maritime provinces sent about $2,000,000 worth of lumber into the United States, notwithstanding the fact that they had to pay a high tariff on that lumber.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: May I ask the hon. gentleman a question?


William F. Carroll: For my information, or for the information of the House?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: For the information of the House, although the hon. gentleman may need it also. If he is in favour of my resolution, why is he speaking against it?


William F. Carroll: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman was not in the House when I began my remarks, because I said that I thoroughly agreed with his resolution. Then I started to point out what had been done by his political friends for the past twenty years.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: What has that got to do with this resolution?


William F. Carroll: It has everything to do with it. I would like to see the population of Nova Scotia increase four-fold what it is now, but I must say again that we must have something for that population to do when it comes to our shores. I am pointing out that while the resolution of my hon. friend is a good one, and worthy of ail consideration, there is something else that must precede this resolution, something that this government must do, before we can get anything for this extra population

to do. I want to say in this connection, Mr. Speaker, that I have it on reliable authority that seven out of every ten fishermen in the port of Gloucester are Nova Scotians. Now, if the reciprocity agreement had been sanctioned we would have got that population back again, and that is what I am complaining about. I have nothing to say against a single word that fell from the hon. member for Cumberland; but I repeat that before we bring in any more population we must provide larger markets for the population we have already. We have not even a sufficient market for the industries that are being developed at the present time. We have not sufficient market for our fish, hence the fisheries are not as flourishing as they ought to be. Now when I was interrupted by the hon. gentleman, I was going on to discuss the causes for the loss of population in the province of Nova Scotia. It is "well known that the farming centres have lost population, and while the late government had proposed a remedy, the present government so far has shown very 'little indication of a desire to afford a remedy for our loss of population. I make the statement on good authority, that the late government were preparing to relieve the farming centres of the province of Nova Scotia of some of the hardships under which they are labouring in getting their products to our markets. We have pretty good markets there. In the estimates last year the late government had put many thousands of dollars to help build a railway as a feeder for the Intercolonial railway down to the little town of Baddeck, which is the shire town of the county of Victoria, but which unfortunately is fast losing its population. We have no means there, especially in the winter months, of getting our farm products to market. A considerable amount of money was placed in the estimates last^ year for the purpose of providing a railway by which those people could get their products to market, and have a needed communication with the rest of the province. But what has happened? The present government has blotted those estimates off the book, and notwithstanding the fact that the hon. member for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) has asked many questions from the Minister of Railways on this subject, he has received no satisfactory explanation of what the government intend to do with that road, and what they intend to do with the sum of money which was voted by this House for the purpose of building branch lines in many other counties of Nova Scotia; for example, the acquisition of the St. Peter's road. The money was not voted for it, but I think I may safely say that it was the intention of the late government to take over that road, and extend it into the town 67
of Louisburg, to build a road also into the county of Guysborough, which is becoming depopulated owing to vne fact that the fishermen have no markets for their fish, and also owing to the fact that the farmers are unable to get their products to market. What has happened with that road? Is the hon. member for Cumberland doing his duty in trying to impress upon the government the desirability of going ahead with that very important branch of the Intercolonial railway, so important to the people of the eastern part of the province, to Halifax, to the county of Pictou and to the county of Guysborough? These are some of the things that would help us to keep our population. We want better markets, better facilities for getting our farm products to market than are possessed by the people of Nova Scotia at the present time. Let me say again that I agree with the proposition that the maritime provinces have not been given enough attention in the matter of immigration. I do not say that too much is being expended for the west; but what I do say is that in Nova. Scotia we want not only more population but better markets for the population we have. I have much pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the resolution of the hon. member for Cumberland.


Mr.   A.@: DeWITT FOSTER (Kings, N.S.). I desire to say only a few words in support of the resolution which has been so ably moved by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes), and which has also received the support of the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll). Let me say, however, that the speech of the hon. member for South Cape Breton struck me as being characteristic of those made by hon. gentlemen of the opposition. He says that he is in favour of this resolution, that is he is in favour of more attention being paid to the maritime provinces in the matter of immigration, and in developing the resources of that part of the Dominion; yet he evidently still feels so sore at the result of the elections on the 21st of September last, that he cannot get away from the old song of new markets, a proposition on which the people of Canada pronounced so decisively last September. He has placed ihis views upon ' Hansard,' and I hope that his speech will be circulated largely in the maritime provinces. I hope that the miners employed by the Dominion Coal Company, and by various other companies will have a chance of reading his speech, and the farmers also, in fact all who were responsible for his election. I hope that it will be perused by other miners in that section of the country, whom we are credibly informed were locked up in the mines on a certain occasion. The very fact that that was so-as I am informed-


William F. Carroll: On whose authority do you get that?


Mr. FOSTER (Kings).: I will give my authority at the proper time to the hon. member for South Cape Breton, but, as a matter of fact there evidently must be some truth in it, because my hon. friend comes to his feet very quickly, showing that he feels that there is something behind the prod after all. It is a well known fact that a certain section of the people of that constituency, who are responsible for his being in this House at this time were prepared to accept the proposition to lower the duty upon coal. I would like to ask my hon. friend if he is in favour of protecting the industry of the people who elected him in Cape Breton county, or if he is in favour of doing away with the protection which has been accorded, and will be accorded to that company? He was so anxious to rise in his seat and ask upon what authority I founded my previous statement that perhaps he will be so kind as to tell this House whether he is in favour of the protection of that industry or whether he still believes that there should be a lowering of the duty to the extent of 8 cents a ton on coal. I will sit down and give my hon. friend a chance to declare himself.
Since he does not declare himself on that question I shall proceed. We were told by the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat that the Conservative friends of the hon. member for Cumberland, Nova Scotia, opposed any attempt made by the government of that province to bring capital into that country, to establish industries, and generally to build up the country. Such a statement seems to me to be tantamount to saying that tne Conservative party and Conservatives generally in the province of Nova Scotia -were a class of people who were not progressive, and did not want their province to be progressive. Well, I noticed that it was left to the hon. member for Cumberland, himself a Conservative, to bring the case, of the maritime provinces for the first time to the attention of the Dominion parliament along these lines. It seems to me that the hon. member for South Cape Breton might have impressed it upon his friends who were, here to take up the case of the maritime provinces and impressed it upon the late government who were spending a great deal of money on immigration into Canada. I am not here to find any fault with the amount that was expended- so long as that amount was honestly expended, and so long as the people of Canada got a dollar's worth of value for every dollar expended. I believe that the people of the maritime provinces will agree with the hon. member for Cumberland, Mr. FOSTER (Kings).
and with every hon. gentleman in this House, that with any expenditure that this country makes for the development of the Canadian Northwest, for the development of Ontario, or Quebec, find absolutely no fault so long as it is honestly expended according to the best policy, and the best advice of the men who are in power. We in the maritime provinces are Canadians, we do not limit ourselves to one particular province, and say that we must have this to the exclusion of the other people or the other parts of this Dominion. We had an illustration of that spirit from the opposition benches the other night when an hon. gentleman, speaking in this House, stated that he did not care anything about protection in so far as the west was concerned, that what they wanted was free trade. Well, I submit, Sir, that in the humble judgment of the most humble representative of the people, who believes in the principle of protection, he will not get free trade for the west at this particular time in the history of Canadian development at least. Whether or not subsequent years will prove that this is the best policy for this Dominion is entirely another thing, but I think that the majority of the people who are in line with the progress of affairs and conversant with public sentiment, would say that it was time to cease harping back to some narrow, little policy that appertains to a particular portion of the country, and to adopt and stand by a policy which will give the greatest good to the greatest number.
I want to say a word or two more before I pass on to another line, to my hon. friend from South Cape Breton. He said that the Conservative party down there were opposed to this policy of bringing capital into the maritime provinces as in the coal industry. My recollection of the coal industry is something like this- I stand to be corrected if I am wrong [DOT]-that there were certain Conservative members in the local legislature who opposed the particular kind of contract that the government was entering into at that time because under that contract the people of Nova Scotia would be compelled to pay a very much larger price per ton for their coal than they ought to pay by virtue of the fact that they were situated near the mines. It was pointed out at that time that they would pay six and seven dollars per ton for their coal. Conservative members in the House and others in the country pointed out that the adoption of the proposed contract between the government and the syndicate which was then being formed, would enable the syndicate to charge practically any price that	they wanted
to for their coal. The supporters of the government said that such was not the case. The events of history

have proved exactly the claim made by the Conservative members of the House and by large sections of the people in general. What do we find upon investigation in Nova Scotia? We find that where it costs a little over $2.10, not exceeding $3, to ' produce the coal, those only a short distance from the mines have to pay $6.25, $6.75 and $7 for their coal while the same article is being delivered to larger firms such as the great railways, and even in the city of Montreal, at $3 or $4 per ton. It was found that coal was being delivered to the Intercolonial Railway, the government road, at a siding at Sydney or at Pictou for $3.10 per ton. Well, it seems to me, that the results have demonstrated that the men who were opposing certain sections of that contract took a wise course and clearly foresaw the events which have actually happened. I repudiate the charge that the Conservative party in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island or any province of this Dominion are or were against the bringing in of capital, the establishing of industries and the building up of this country. What the Conservative party have always stood for throughout their history is the building up, within this Canada of ours, of a great nation. That is what we stood for previous to the 21st September and that is what the Conservative party, if it is true to its own ideals, will always stand for in the history of this Dominion. We were told that down in Nova Scotia we had Conservatives going on the platform and saying that it would be disloyal to trade with the United States. I venture to say that there is not a Conservative candidate in Nova Scotia who ever made such a foolish statement as to say it was disloyal to trade with the United States. That .statement was made on the stump in Nova Scotia and throughout the Dominion by the very men who make it to-day in this House and it was made in a sarcastic way for the purpose of getting around the argument that confronted them. In my own constituency I was asked by a very estimable lawyer and a member of the local legislature if the fact that we got a dozen eggs from the United States, or we got two cents more for our eggs in the United States, would jar my loyalty any? I submit that a child would know better than that. When hon. gentlemen opposite say that Conservative members have said in Nova Scotia that it was disloyal to trade with the United States, I say they are but stating that which they themselves stated, to my own knowledge, upon the hustings in the province of Nova Scotia.
I was very glad to hear the hon. gentleman admit that the government of Nova Scotia has done very little for immigration. Practically all they have ever done, 67 i
is to come out at the first of the year and state that Nova Scotia is in the greatest state of prosperity that could be imagined. The newspapersupporting that administration displays in large headlines the announcement that Nova Scotia is most prosperous and that immigration is flowing in every year at the rate of one thousand a month or some such exaggerated figure. And, when the proper time comes around, these self same gentlemen declare that Nova Scotia is going backward, and that reciprocity with the United States is the panacea. The hon. gentleman told us that we had no market in which to sell our potatoes, but I can tell him that in the county of Kings, which I have the honour to represent, we grew 250,000 bushels of potatoes last year and we had a market for all of them. Let me tell him, further, that a few days previous to the 21st of September, when the Liberals were telling the people that what we wanted was the market of the United States for our potatoes, a carload of American potatoes came right into my own constituency and were retailed to the people of the town at a lower price than our own farmers were getting for their potatoes in the home market. That was a fine illustration of the absurdity of the argument put up by hon. gentlemen on the other side. I am very glad that carload of potatoes came because had I not such a concrete evidence as that of the absurdity of the contention set up by the Liberals, I might not have the honour and pleasure of sitting in this House today. The hon. gentleman told us that we had no market for our lumber, but I would point out to him that in Nova Scotia wc are disposing of our lumber at the rate of four hundred million feet a year, which is one hundred million feet faster than it is growing. Will the hon. gentleman tell me that that is not taking away from the forest fast enough? In the face of all this evidence these gentlemen opposite have the effrontery to tell us that we have no market. The hon. gentleman told us that we had no market for our fish, which seems to me to be a peculiar statement. Does the hon. gentleman forget that we took over $7,000,000 worth of fish from the waters of Nova Scotia alone last year and would he pretend that we are not selling this fish and that the men who cure it and distribute it are not making a profit and the fishermen a living?	_
Will the hon. gentleman state in this House now that there is no market for the products of the canning establishments in Nova Scotia? Why, if he looked at the returns published by the provincial govern-

ment he will find that there are firms in the town of Digby who are finding a market for their fish in the Canadian Northwest. The hon. gentleman also told us that there was no market for our apples but the fact is that last year we sold our apples in the Canadian Northwest, in Germany, in England, in Scotland and in Ireland., and some of our fruit even went to the West Indies, and so soon as our communication with the West Indian Islands is improved, I have not the slightest doubt that more of our apples and our potatoes will go there. The maritime provinces had eight million bushels of potatoes last year and I believe that in 5 or 6 years hence they will be raising five million bushels of potatoes and selling them too. I wish to say that I am heartily in accord with the resolution of my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) as I am heartily in accord with every project that will bring immigration to the maritime provinces. And Sir, whether a measure with that object in view comes from a Liberal or from a Conservative government, I am free to say that I believe the people will heartily endorse it. I believe, Sir, that all the brains and all the administrative ability to be found in this Dominion or in any new country, is not to be found in one political party and it seems to me that my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) instead of speaking for five minutes in favour of this resolution and for fifteen minutes to throw cold water on it, might have forgotten, in his zeal for the welfare of the maritime provinces, that the resolution was introduced by a Conservative.
And, Six, as to immigration, we are not only bringing back our sons and daughters who left Nova Scotia to go to the "United States, but we have been sending out people from the maritime provinces and from Ontario and Quebec as well to the Canadian Northwest. We are proud of our people who have settled in the west, and who have dene a great deal to advance the prosperity of their adopted province; I venture to say that no people who leave one part of this Dominion and go to another, bring more credit upon their native place than do the men of the maritime provinces. In this very Chamber we have men representing western constituencies who originally left the maritime provinces to settle out there, and that in itself is a tribute to the success which they have met with, and to the manner in which they have been able to establish themselves in the confidence of the people. Such men are sure to be foremost in the advocacy of a united east and west, and the binding together of all the provinces of the Dominion in one great country. I do not think that I can add anything to the eloquent words of my hon. friend (Mr. Rhodes) in Mr. FOSTER (Kings).
supporting this resolution. Let me point out, however, that in the last eleven fiscal years, from July 1900 to March 31st, 1911, out of a total immigration of 1,764,475 only 73,502, or a trifle over four per cent, went to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at Eight o'clock.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Speaker, when the House rose I was pointing out that the maritime provinces had been practically entirely neglected by the late administration. In support of that statement I need only point out that for the last eleven fiscal years, from July 1, 1900, to March 31, 1911, out of a total immigration of 1,764,475 only 73,502, or a trifle over four per cent went to the three provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. If even this sma'll percentage had gone to the three provinces mentioned with the intention of taking up their homes there, while still a very unfair division, we of the maritime provinces might not complain, but it is well known in the British Isles the advice given by immigration agents was: ' Spend six months or a year in the east, get used to the ways of the country, and then go west where the free homesteads are available.' That this advice was largely followed is well known; so while the perusal of statistics might lead one to believe that the maritime provinces secured four per cent of Canada's immigration, the real percentage was much lower. Now, we do not object to people going to the Canadian Northwest. If there were more farmers in Manitoba, there would be larger markets for the manufactured goods of the east; if the number of grain-growers increased in Alberta, there would be more purchasers for the agricultural implements of which our manufacturing friends are so justly proud; and if a larger area is placed under cultivation in Saskatchewan, it will mean more persons requiring the cotton and woollen goods, the boots and shoes and other products of those flourishing industries whose manufactures is as yet largely confined to the older parts of the Dominion. We do not object to promoting immigration to the west. Our whole argument has reference to the distribution of the immigration. While we are willing that the west should have its fair share of the immigration, we think more attention should be paid to the eastern provinces. In support of that position, let me read from a speech delivered in this House by the hon. member for Two Mountains (Mr. Ethier), on May 10, 1909, in which he said:

[DOT]2106
From the year 1900 to 1907 tlie Minister of Interior subsidized the following societies which are especially charged with the work of repatriation and immigration from the United States: The Quebec and Lake St. John railway was subsidized during these years to the amount of $25,300; the Repatriation Society of Montreal was subsidized for $25,300; the Repatriation Society of Quebec was subsidized to the amount of $22,000, and, by the last report, that of 1908, I see that the Department of the Interior, in order to encourage these societies has voted $8,000 to the Quebec and Lake St. John railway, $4,000 to the Repatriation Society of Quebec, $15,000 to the Ottawa Valley Aid Immigration 'Society, and $1,000 to the Union National Francaise.
I do not think the friends of the maritime provinces will take very much exception to the subsidizing of these societies. As has been pointed out, there are upwards of 50,000 French Canadians on the other side of the line, who would in all probability like to come back to Canada, and we take no exception to any effort to bring them hack; but where can you find an instance of a subsidy being granted to any society or company or railway in the maritime provinces for a similar object. Surely this shows lack of attention to the east.
Before passing to the advantages which Nova Scotia has to offer to the immigrating population of the British Isles or of Germany or of the northern part of Europe, I wish to state that my remarks as to the policy of the late government are not in any manner whatsoever intended to reflect upon the officials of the department. The officers of the Immigration Department, Whom I have met in Ottawa, I have always found to be courteous, obliging, and well versed in their work, and I have much pleasure in stating that they apparently are thoroughly conversant with the_ requirements of the province from which I come. But administration and policy -are two different things. The officers attend to the administration and with the administration I fi.nd no fault; hut the policy is in the hands* of the government, and, while I would hardly go to the extent of saying that Nova Scotia has been discriminated against, I will say that it has not received the attention at the hands of the late government which its importance and needs demand.
Coming now to the opportunities which Nova Scotia offers to the resident of the motherland, they may be divided briefly into five classes: mining, fishing, manufacturing, dairying and fruit-growing. I understood that it was not the policy of the late administration to do much for the first three of these industries, and perhaps a good deal might be advanced in support of that claim; but at the same time I do not see that there could be any great objection tc inserting in our advertising literature
for distribution throughout the world, the immense and far-reaching advantages ^ that might be found in the maritime provinces tor the establishment of industries along these lines. In the maritime provinces we have the resources along with ample water power and electrical power for the establishment of industries, and the government might very well put in their advertising literature something that might catch the eye of the immigrant intending to come to this country that would induce him to settle in the maritime provinces. It might perhaps be said that the manufacturing and mining interests are sufficiently well organized to take care of themselves. But with the dairying and fruit growing or the agricultural industry it is^ different. _ In neither of these quarters is the province developed to anything like the extent possible; nor is it reasonable to suppose that those now engaged in that work should of their own volition attempt to extend the production of the province by inducing others to enter the same occupation. They have neither the time nor the organization necessary, but they fully realize that an increase in their numbers would be a gain not a loss, to those already so engaged. If the apple production of Nova Scotia were trebled, the fruit would be that much better known in the western, German, and London markets and the Nova Scotia farmer would be correspondingly benefited. Here then is an opportunity to use a portion of the immigration appropriation for the benefit of the maritime provinces.
Let us look for a moment at what the people of the maritime provinces are doing in the potato industry alone. In 1901 there were 36,290 acres in the province of Nova Scotia alone under cultivation, and they produced 4,269,610 bushels. In 1907 there were 43,836 acres under cultivation, producing 8,294,097 bushels, an increase of acreage of 7,546 acres and an increase of production of 4,024,487 bushels. When we remember that it was practically the same population that were producing nearly twice as much, we are led to wonder what would be the possibilities of that province if our population were increasing so that instead of having 450,000 we had a million people there.
For we know that, as the late Dr. Johnson pointed out in a very able public address, that there are some millions of acres in the maritime provinces capable of producing farm crops not yet reduced to cultivation. It seems to me, as Dr. Robertson pointed out the other day, that with advanced methods of agriculture, such as are in use in some parts of Ontario, our present maritime provinces could increase their production by from seventy-five to one hundred per cent, even if they used only the land now in cultivation. In the

year 1910, the total value of field crops for Nova Scotia was $21,203,000; for New Brunswick, $18,959,000, and for Prince Edward Island, $9,998,100. It seems to me that, with the improved methods to which I have referred, production could toe doubled even by the present population. Add to that the annual influx into the maritime provinces of 1,000 people a month from Denmark, Holland, Norway, Germany and the British Isles, and the prospect is just toy that much the brighter. And when I speak of immigrants from the British Isles, some in the maritime provinces may say that our friends from the old country are not as excellent farmers as those who have been trained among ourselves. But these people from the British Isles are in this country only a short time when they become proficient, and as soon as they become proficient they settle down as farmers amongst us. In my own constituency some of the most progressive and up-to-date farmers were formerly residents of the British Isles.
Now, with regard to the fruit industry, only a few years ago in the province of Nova Scotia-in fact only last year-we were growing a little over 400,000 barrels of apples. This season we grew 1,500,000 barrels. And no one, even the most optimistic, pretends to set a limit to fruit growing in the maritime provinces. And from parts of Nova Scotia not now devoted to fruit growing, as well as from many parts of New Brunswick, come reports which show that the land suitable for the raising of fruit in the maritime provinces is unlimited. Well, why should not this information be given in the press reports and in the documents distributed all over the world in order that attention may be directed to the maritime provinces as well as to the golden west of which we are all so proud.
Turning now to the dairying industry, we find again an excellent opportunity for advancement, and a field which offers great inducements to the proper class of immigrants to be found in many English counties. The Dominion Dairy Commissioner, Mr. J. A. Euddick, in the course of a public address, made this statement:
There is no reason why Nova Scotia should not produce at least $25,000,000 worth (instead of $5,000,000 worth) of dairy produce a year. The export of butter from the little country of Denmark amounts to nearly $50,000,000 a year, and Denmark is only two-thirds the size of Nova Scotia. It is true that there is very little waste land in Denmark, but the total area available for dairying cannot be any larger than in Nova, Scotia, and there are large sections of this province that are infinitely more productive than any land to be found in Denmark. I believe that the season in Nova Scotia is quite as favorable as it is in the European country. Cattle do not suf-Mr. FOSTER (Kings).
fer in Nova Scotia to the extent that they do in Ontario and Quebec from the heat and flies in the summer months.
The members o'f the Scottish Agricultural Commission who visited Canada in 1906, gained an impression of the advantages offered by Nova Scotia for the development of the dairying and beef raising industry. In that section of their report that deals with the live stock industry they say of animal husbandry in mv province:
In Nova Scotia, as in the greater part of eastern Canada, conditions are especially suitable for dairy cattle. With a suitable climate and a rain fall of over thirty-five inches spread well over the spring and summer, Nova Scotia in many parts seemed especially adapted for rearing and feeding cat-fle. Roots of all kinds seem to grow well, and hey of good quality is abundant which means that the provision of winter keep for stock is not a matter presenting much difliculty.
It is a well known fact that in Nova Scotia great attention has recently been given to fruit growing. People have gone into fruit growing as a specialty and have neglected the raising of beef, -ypth the result that we have had to depend very largely upon the provinces of Quebec and Ontario for our supplies in that line. I believe, and Dr. Robertson expresses the same idea in the address he delivered-that directly the people of these provinces realized that they have facilities for raising and placing upon the market their own beef, directly they realized that this is a profitable industry, especially coupled with sheep raising, as soon as they become fully possessed of the notion that we have in the province of Nova Scotia this opportunity, just so soon we shall have these things developed in our province. Then, as I have already asked, is there any reason why we should not have such information as this distributed amongst the people whom we desire as colonists? It seems to me there is none. Opinions such as those I have just quoted, leave no doubt that there exists ail excellent opening for new settlers, and I trust the government will give early attention to seeing to it that the advantages of Nova Scotia; are properly placed before the emigration portion of the population of the motherland. With the improvement of the cold storage service to which this government is pledged, an immense impetus and additional advantage will be given to both dairying and fruit growing, and for that reason the present time is especially opportune for making an effort to direct a reasonable portion of the immigration towards the maritime province. As to the best course to pursue to bring about the desired results, the government will, I am sure, give the matter its best consideration; and, with thousands of acres of the finest land in the Dominion

lying fallow or only partially cultivated, with our population at a standstill and with our representation decreasing in this House, the subject is one, I contend, which should be dealt with energetically at the very earliest opportunity.
I make my statement with regard to what I believe to be the right of the maritime provinces, without any desire to have recourse to partisanship. But the House has seen that no sooner was the reason laid before the House than partisanship was dragged into the discussion. I believe it was my duty to appeal to the facts in refutation of what was said and which did not pertain to the resolution. In conclusion, I am in hearty accord with any movement that will tend to the upbuilding of the maritime provinces and of the Dominion of Canada; for I think I can truly say that in the maritime provinces we are all of us Canadians first, maritime province people second, and party men last.


Mr. O. S. CROCKET (York, N.B.).: I desire to endorse the resolution moved and so ably supported by my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes). There is undoubtedly a general feeling throughout the maritime provinces that those provinces have been ignored in the advertising propaganda which has been carried on by the Immigration Department of the Federal government within the 'last ten or twelve years, and that the efforts of the department have been too exclusively devoted to the booming of the west.
There is no objection in the east to the freest and most generous advertising of the resources of the prairie provinces, or to the 'employment of all legitimate means to attract desirable settlers to that section of the country. But we feel in the east that the efforts 'and the energies of the Immigration Department should not be wholly devoted to that purpose, as they have been in the past, and that the maritime provinces, which are seeking more population and which have equally 'attractive and more varied opportunities to offer for settlement, should now be given equal attention. At the present time, I may say that there is in the province of New Brunswick a feeling of optimism and hopefulness with respect to our future development that has not, I think, been equalled in any previous period of our history. For a long time that progress was not made which we would like to have seen, in agriculture particularly, in consequence largely of the fact that the valley of the St. John river, which traverses 7 of the 15 counties of the province from the Quebec boundary in the north to the Bay of Fundy in the south, and which contains the most fertile and productive lands within the province, has been deprived of very necessary transportation facilities. Now, however, that the construction of that great public work has been assured by the joint action of the provincial government of New Brunswick and the present Federal administration, a fresh impetus has been given to the whole of that section of our province, agriculturally , commercially and industrially. To-day the attention of the whole population has 'been fixed as it never has been before upon the extent and variety of our natural resources, and the unexcelled opportunities *and advantages which New Brunswick offers for expansion and development. Only recently I had the pleasure of listening to an address delivered before the Fredricton Board of Trade by Mr. Palmer, of the ' Financial News,' of London, Eng., ia very illuminating and encouraging address with respect to the resources of tlie province of New Brunswick. He stated that he was more impressed with the possibilities 'and resources of that province than with those of any country he had 'ever visited, and he had travelled over the whole of Canada three or four times. Therefore I say that in the province of New Brunswick at the present time the people 'are particularly hopeful and optimistic with regard to our future development. We have iin that province valuable fisheries, we have iron deposits, we have coal fields, we have oil wells and water-powers, and ia wealth of timber resources which is equalled by few of the provinces of this confederation, and a soil adapted for fruit growing and profitable mixed farming. In addition to all these things, we have the principal ocean port of the Dominion of Canada. All that we need at the present time is more population, and in order to get that we only need to make oetter known the resources of that province to the intending emigrant in the old world and in other countries. I am sure that this government will do its utmost in that respect. What we desire in New Brunswick is that the Immigration Department of this, government will cooperate to this end with the provincial authorities to a greater extent than it has done in the past. I a,m already assured that the government will do so, and that the result wild be that within the next ten years we will have 'the greatest development in New Brunswick that has ever been known in the history of that province.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think this House will be ready to congratulate my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes) on the admirable way he presented his case in moving ifhe resolution now under consideration. Indeed I think that the thanks of the hon. members representing maritime constituencies generally are due to my hon.

friend for what I may call the admirable compendium of facts which he has presented to this House. It is in a sense a handbook relating to the maritime provinces. Admittedly the resolution is one of importance to the: people of eastern Canada, not alone to the maritime prov-ences; it is a resolution in which the people of eastern Canada will take a keen interest- It is, therefore, essentia] that we should discuss this matter dispassionately, without any partisan bias whatever, solely from the standpoint of the interest of our common country. Mr. Speaker, I quite concur in the objects of the lesolution, in its spirit; but if in some respects I do not agree with my hon. friend in his diagnosis of the case, I am sure he wiil not attribute to me any desire to import into this discussion any partisan considerations. I may have to deal with what I conceive to be an economic truth, but I will do so in no partisan spirit.
My hon. friend says that the maritime provinces have been taunted in the past with relying almost solely upon the Lord and upon governments. It is a taunt which has been frequently heard, not only in this House, but outside, and in the press of the country. I am sure my hon. friend did not wish to endorse a taunt of that kind. I think we must all acknowledge that Providence has done much for the maritime provinces and no one can make any complaint on that score. If any proofs were necessary to show how rich and profuse the gifts of 1 rovidence have been to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, we need only to refer to the speech of the hon. member for Cumberland. He lias pointed out concisely the rich resources of that section of Canada, and it is upon those resources that he has based his resolution, a resolution that I will for a moment try to analyse.
He says:
That, inasmuch as the immigration policy ot the government and the several railway companies has for many years been almost entirely confined to the development of western. Canada, and largely in consequence of this policy the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island have not grown in equal degree with the rest of the Dominion, in the opinion of this House, m order to promote uniform progress and prosperity throughout Canada, the government should speedily inaugurate and carry out a. policy of publicity and immigration do-signed to promote tlie more rapid development of the said provinces.
If my hon. friend had charged the want of prosperity or population to other causes than the exclusive one which is mentioned,
I would certainly be in harmony with his resolution in every respect. I do not take Mr. EMMERSON.
exception to it even as it is, but I think it would be my duty to point out to my hon. friend wherein the policy of the Immigration Department has not been the only clog to the wheel of progress in respect to population in the maritime provinces. My hon. friend said, and I think with considerable truth, that the attention of the Immigration Department in the past has not been given, as it should have been, to the matter of promoting immigration to the maritime provinces. I bold that this is true in respect to all Immigration Departments from 1867 down to the present moment, and I am not going to' withhold my words of censure and criticism upon Dominion governments in the past in respect to their shortcomings in this regard. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, until the advent of the Hon. Clifford Silton into the Department of the Interior there was very little attention given to immigration to any part of this Dominion. II that attention was given, as it should have been, certainly it was a signal failure, because, until the regime of that hon. gentleman there was no progress made commensurate with the resources of Canada or commensurate with the bright prospects that we have in that land known as uur western heritage. Up to that moment there had not been given the attention to this matter which should have been given to it and from 1896, or shortly afterwards, down to the present, there has been nothing but a steady, spectacular progress with regard to it-he settlement and development of our westent country. But, during that time there has not been any attempt made to direct the attention of the people of other lands to eastern Canada, that attention which I claim the resources, prospects, and wealth of these eastern provinces would justify. If immigration has been steadily going into the west and if it has not gone to the east, I am not one wbo would charge the department with the sole responsibility.
I hold that the people of eastern Canada are themselves to blame. I hold that the press of the country and the public of Nova Scotia. New Brunswick, and the maritime provinces generally should share in the responsibility. So that, during all these years, our attention has been devoted to the west. My hon. friend has said that the railway corporations have done very much. They have done a great deal to withdraw the attention of the people of other lands from eastern Canada and our own people of eastern Canada have done very much more, perhaps unwittingly, in that direction. We have all been glorifying our western heritage, we have talked of the illimitable prairie, we have spoken from our public platforms, and our press has teemed with articles laudatory of our western country, and its rich re-

sources. Too little attention has been paid to the conditions which have prevailed in the maritime provinces. My hon. friend says that he is going to remedy them by a campaign of publicity on the part of the Department of the Interior. While that might do much to remedy it, while it might be of considerable assistance, I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I do not think it is the sole remedy that should be applied. It would almost seem, from the words of my hon. friend, and of some other hon. gentlemen from eastern Canada, that this is the first time that any attention has been given whatever to the promotion of immigration to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Why, Sir, it was for many years in New Brunswick a very burning question. In 1849, the government of New Brunswick, with the view of peopling the waste lands of that province, with the view of inviting settlement, in the rich valleys of the St. John, the Miramichi, and other fruitful sections of the province, brought over from Great Britain a gentleman of very great eminence, Mr. Johnson, to make an examination, survey and detailed report of its possibilities and resources in order that, he might return to Great Britain and bring to the attention of the people of that land that particular province as a possibility for intending settlers. I have in my hand a report on ' The Agricultural Possibilities of the province of New Brunswick, by J. F. W. Johnson, F.R.S., S. L. and E.' This report was published, many thousands and tens of thousands copies were circulated broadcast throughout the British Isles, and it was advertised to the fullest extent possible. It is an exhaustive, able and thorough report and well repays the attention that any one would give to it having a desire to make a research as to its contents. That was in 1849-50. Tn 1854 the government of the province of New Brunswick took further action.	,
Mechanics' Institutes and other societies throughout the province carried on a propaganda to make the rich resources of New Brunswick known in the motherland. The Mechanics' Institute of St. John was m existence long prior to 1850 and had its headquarters in the building known to this day as the Mechanics' Institute. In 1851 a pamphlet was issued by the government of New Brunswick giving mil and detailed information as to the conditions existing in the province and that was sent broadcast throughout Great Britain. In 1854 Mr. M. H. Perley, at the instance of the New Brunswick government, published a handbook of information for immigrants thousands of copies of which were circulated. In 1860 the government of New Brunswick sent the Hon. James Brown to Great Britain and Ireland to promote immigration.
I should have mentioned that in. 1849 the Mechanics' Institute offered substantial prizes on the subject of New Brunswick as a home for immigrants and the best means of promoting immigration and developing the resources of the province. _ One of these essays was written by William Till, jr., editor of the ' New Brunswicker,' one of the first papers published in that province. In 1874 Mr. Thomas Potts was appointed by the Mackenzie government to represent the Dominion Immigration Department particularly in .the interests of Canada and he issued a pamphlet. Mr. Samuel Watts of Woodstock also issued a book entitled * Facts and Information for intending immigrants to New Brunswick.' In 1866 Mr. R. M. Burtis, at the expense of the Mechanics' Institute, distributed in Great Britain his pamphlet on the subject, which was one of considerable value. Then, there was the report of Professor Johnston published by the government in 1849, and the pamphlet of James Edgar issued in 1860. In 1879, when the Hon. Michael Adams was Surveyor General of New Brunswick, the government issued a comprehensive pamphlet a.s to the opportunities afforded to immigrants in that province. All along, down to 1867, the government of New Brunswick by constant effort endeavoured to bring to the knowledge .of the people of Great Britain facts relating to that, province. But notwithstanding these efforts there still exists that sparsity of population which is a drawback to the progress of New Brunswick. Prior to confederation, we had, as we have now, such products as fish, coal, grindstone, building stone, gypsum, lime, oil, oil shales, lumber, agricultural products.
I believe that the conditions which existed prior to confederation in my province were very different from the conditions which have existed since.
The Department of the Interior ha,s been charged with being responsible for the want of increase in the population, but that charge cannot he well founded because from 1851 down to 1861 the maritime provinces increased in population to a marvellous extent. That was previous to confederation. During the first period of the decade, between 1851 and 1861 there was a material increase in the population. From 1881 to 1891 we had o-ur first decrease in the population. of New Brunswick, and I think I am correct in saying that the same statement would apply to Nova Scotia. From 1871 to 1881 the decrease was not so marked. But since 1881 and down to. 1911 the population of eastern Canada-certainly the rural population-has been practically stationary. That condition has been due to this fact that there has not been a proper development of our natural resources. It is due to the fact that our stone quarries, gypsum and lime quarries, the small lutn-

bering operations have been miserably stagnant, the stone quarries are silent. We hear a great deal about our home market. Why, in 1867 down to the period when the United States entered upon an era of high tariffs and enacted prohibitory tariffs, we had a home market certainly in the maritime provinces beyond anything we have had ever since. In the counties of Westmorland and Albert alone in New Brunswick, there was a home market furnished by the stone quarries alone where we had 1,000 people engaged, not to mention the other industries connected with these quarries which also gave employment to a large number. There were the coasting vessels employed in freighting that stone, there were the shipyards alive with industrious hands engaged in the construction of these coasting vessels. AH these afforded to the agriculturists of that section of eastern Canada a home market certainly far better than the market now afforded them by the works of the Intercolonial railway in the city of Moncton. There are not more than 1,000 men employed in the workshops, at Moncton. In 1867 and during that period between 1856 and 1866, there were quarries in operation which gave employment to thousands of men who are not there to-day because these quarries have been shut down owing to the closing of their natural market the American market, and no substitute having been obtained. If the people of eastern Canada are ever to develop their stone and gypsum and lime quarries and coal mines, they must find a market for these productions. But some one will say have they not a home market in western Canada? Well, the conditions of transportation and the conditions in western and other portions of Canada preclude the possibility of our finding there an adequate market for these products of the maritime provinces*, and naturally the *closing of the American market, the consequent silencing of our quarries, the sweeping away Jrom the seas of our coasting vessels, the shutting down of our shipyards, brought _ about *a great change in the conditions in eastern Canada. Where to-day are the men who worked in these quarries and their descendants? You may look for them beyond western Canada and in the State of Ohio. Where are the ship carpenters who worked in our ship-yards, and their descendants? They are to be found on the Kenebock and along the coast of the New England States employed in constructing vessels that sail, not under the Union Jack, but under the Stars and Stripes.
I am not going to hold any government responsible. I am not making charge.-against the last or any preceding government, but I am inviting attention to con-Mr. EMMERSON.
-	ditions which prevailed forty years ago 3 in Eastern Canada as compared with . those which prevail to-day. The people of 3 the United States, in their frenzy for a i protective tariff, closed to us their market, , and we have had no substitute for that mar: lcet down to the present. We had an oppor-
-	tunity,-and I do %iot refer to it in order E to excite airy discussion with respect to freer ' trade relations with the United States or
-	improved reciprocal trade relations,-but I ; will say this, that if there were these
-	open markets between Canada and the United States, if there were this interchange of commodities as the result of an arrangement between the two countries, the people of eastern Canada would have an opportunity of developing their resources, which they are now lacking, and there would be work for our labouring population. There would be thousands employed in the stone quarries, in the ship yards, in the construction of coasting vessels, in the gypsum and lime quarries not to mention coal and small lumbering. If this opportunity were furnished the people of eastern Canada you would not hear any complaint about the population of the eastern provinces. The subject is a gloomy one, the matter is one to be deplored, and the question to be solved is how can we best remedy present conditions. If there has been a decrease in our population from 1881 down to the present or if our population has been practically stagnant as regards its increase, and if preceding that period there had been an increase in the population of eastern Canada, then where are we to put the responsibility? That decrease or stagnation has not been due to lack of publicity, because in the period when our efforts for publicity were feeble on the part of our local government and naturally circumscribed, we had a population increasing every year and there came to our ports, people from the old land particularly, by the hundreds and thousands.
New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island may well congratulate themselves upon tire 'character of their population. My hon. friend has spoken of the rich resources of the maritime provinces, but he has not dwelt on the character of the men who went in and did the pioneer work there, hewing out homes for themselves and their families. I do not wish to be charged with making a partisan speech; I am not. I am giving utterance o the faith that is in me with respect to a certain economic policy. I hold that ifter all protection is a reciprocity, but it s a reciprocity of monopoly, while free frade is a reciprocity of freedom and of lommodities. My hon. friend says that >ur natural resources have been awaiting expanding markets. Why is it that we have not sought those expanding markets and
[DOT]2117

that tihose natural resources have to grow gray in their waiting? When the opportunity was afforded us to develop those resources and to obtain those expanding markets, we did not . seize upon it, and we are slow to-day to do so. Therefore I make this assertion, that the fact that we have not a larger population to-day than we practically had 20 or 30 years ago is due to the want of development of our natural resources. My hon. friend let fall a remark which certainly was full of meaning: he spoke of the vacant farms in the maritime provinces. Mr Speaker, there must be a cause for vacant farms, and if the Immigration Department had gathered together a list of those vacant farms in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, and had it circulated in Great Britain, what a splendid invitation it would have been to intending immigrants; what an incentive to them to take up their lot in a country which had been settled for a hundred years and which had reached that stage of agricultural development or stagnation that it had an innumerable list of vacant farms. Vacant farms are not a recommendation to any country from an agricultural standpoint. My hon. friend wanted the Immigration Department to take hold of that question. Why, the Government of New Brunswick, in 1897-98, when I had the honour of being connected with it, had pamphlets printed for circulation in Denmark, Scandinavia and Great Britain with a view to inviting immigration, and we were urged to have inserted in those pamphlets advertisements of farms for sale; but I am bound to say that I had not the hardihood to admit the advertisements stating that there were so many vacant farms, because I did not think they would recommend the country to those who wanted to come to the new world to take uo farms. Now, these vacant farms are in existence; why? I hold that it is because there has not been an incentive to the agricultural interests. I hold that the policy which has been pursued from 1878 down to the present even, has not been of such a character as would tend to the development of those agricultural interests in eastern Canada; and if there were an earnest and honest desire to develop our natural resources, if a proposition were placed before this House having for its aim and abject the development of the marine interests, the fishing interests, the stone interests and the coal interests of eastern Canada, it might be that we would be met with the cry that to develop your natural resources you exhaust them, and if you sell those resources, though you develop them, and find a market to the south, you sap your national independence and disintegrate your empire. That has been and is the cry, and it seems to me that when we seek to place I
upon the shoulders of the Department of the Interior the responsibility for existing conditions in the maritime provinces in the matter of population, we are forgetting entirely the cause which brought about those conditions. How can you invite to your land for settlement the people of other lands when they are restricted as to their home market, and every one must admit that in a limited home market you have a most uncertain and variable market. There is no incentive to production and therefore no great call for labour, and with no great calf for labour there cannot be any great increase of population. We are in the position in Canada to-day of having compelled those engaged in the development of our natural resources to buy in the dearest market. That is admittedly the very object of our fiscal policy in the past and certainly of all protective policies. But, worse than that, we have denied to the agriculturists of Canada and to all others developing our natural interests, the privilege of selling in the best market or in wider markets. Is not that the story in a nutshell? Under these circumstances does it not seem reasonable that there should not be that increase in population that God and nature intended that there should he in that section of the Dominion? We have had in the province of New Brunswick in the last decade a slight increase, I think about 20,000 souls, "in the previous decade ther was no increase; our population remained stationary. But in former years, when the development of our natural resources was going on, our population increased, our agricultural lands were settled, our lumbering operations went forward.
My hon. friend has spoken of the resources of the countv of Albert, its immense oil deposits, its gas fields, its mountains of oil shales. It is true that the attention of the public in the United States and this country has been directed to these rich resources again within the last ten years. But the oil shales were the basis of an industry in the fifties. Men were converting the oil on these shales into illuminating oil, which was sold in the markets of Boston at $1 a gallon. But when the oil wells in Pennsylvania were developed and oil was procured at a much cheaper rate, it naturally commanded the market and the business of production from the oil shales of Albert died out. But, all these years, that resource has existed and it has been known. But the conditions which have existed-'Conditions which we had an opportunity to set aside-have prevented the development of this industry. I have called attention to the pamphlet issued by the province of New Brunswick and written by William Till, jr., who was the editor of a newspaper. In speaking of the development of the resources of New Brunswick, he said:

It, therefore, follows that not only individual efforts hut some legislation should he directed towards giving an impetus to those branches of business which promise the best and safest returns.
Then he calls attention to some of the opportunities afforded by these resources:
As the agricultural resources of the province are universally acknowledged to be good-its forests limited only by its boundaries, affording the basis of an extensive trade in shipbuilding and lumbering-its harbours numerous and safe, and its water courses abundant, furnishing ample facilities for manufacturing establishments, while its mineral resources (which are as yet imperfectly known) cannot be justly estimated; but as far as they have been developed, the projectors have in general met with rich reward for their industry and enterprise. Limestone, coal, copper, iron, gypsum and other valuable deposits are known to exist in various sections, and in two of the eastern counties (Albert and Westmorland) mines of extraordinary richness are being worked. Building stone is also to be found in abundance, and some of our finest public and private edifices have been constructed of the various descriptions quarried in the province.
I have also referred to Mr. W. R. H. Burtis, who published a work on New Brunswick .as a home for immigrants under the authority of the government for the province. He said:
We come now to the third branch of our subject-' The best means of developing the resources of the country.' And first-it may he asked-what does the word ' resources ' mean ? In a limited sense, it may be taken to signify the material products of a country-whether animal, mineral or vegetable-either in a raw state, or enhanced in value by the labour of its people. In a more extended sense, it may include with these, local advantages, with facilities for amplification by artificial means, such as canals, railways, and the like. Viewing it in this broader import, the range of vision extends over a wider field, -and gives scope fo-r indulgence in brighter visions of both the early and the later future of this fine province. Next comes the question-what is meant by the phrase ' developing the resources'? To my mind, the developing the resources of a country is not a single fact or attainment, but a successive and never-ending series of facts or achievements reaching far into futurity-a constantly gathering and accumulating capacity, strengthening as it goes, in an increased ratio to its progress.
Further, he says:
Lying contiguous to Canada, and having water communication with that great and growing province, we might hope, in time, to drive an extensive trade with our sister colony. But our prospects in that direction are being blighted by the enterprise of our American neighbours, who are cutting off our trade, not only with Canada, but with the people of out own interior.


An hon. MEMBER.: Hear, hear.


Henry Robert Emmerson: 


Henry Robert Emmerson: Naturally, my hon. friend says ' hear, hear.' But there are the-geographical conditions 'and transportation conditions to be met. and our market for many of the products of our resources was necessarily limited, and could not expand under conditions then existing. Speaking of the conditions that then prevailed, Mr. Perley says:
All that is wanting is an extensive market. Hence arises the important question!-whether anything, and what may he done to improve our condition in this respect? As there is but little prospect of a radical change in the commercial policy of the United States

At that time the policy of the United States was towards exclusion, and there was exclusion to such an extent that even prominent men in these British colonies favoured even annexation to the United States as a means of securing a market and improving the economic conditions among our people. To such a height had this feeling risen that annexation manifestos were prepared and signed even by men eminent in the councils of the country, one of whom afterwards became Prime Minister of Canada. What they wanted in 1850 was an extensive market. And unhappily the conditions that existed then to too great an extent exist to-day. We lack a certain and extended market. We find ourselves without scope for our energies, ambitions and aspirations. Mr. Perley says further:
We have all the requisites but one, perhaps the only one, that to which I have elsewhere alluded, the want of a moire extensive market-
Here you have the people and the resources, but you have not the market.
That was in 1850. In 1854 that was given to them, and they prospered, and their population increased. It was taken -away from them, and since then th-ey have ceased to prosper -and increase in population. But they might have done so if we had availed ourselves of the recent offer of the United States in the matter of reciprocal trade, and which would have afforded to our agriculturists, t-o our fishermen, to our lumbermen, to our gypsum quarry men, a market which they need, ianid which, if given them, would greatly stimulate our trade and in-crease our population. Now I cannot close without inviting your attention to the re-marks of a Mr. Burtis, speaking on the resources of New Brunswick:
What an inviting field for immigration! To the stranger of every rank and degree, the road to wealth and distinction is as free as to the native of the soil. There are no favoured classes-no exclusive privileges-no absurd and depressing monopolies-no checks or-hindrances to laudable ambition-no station unattainable by patient industry and honest work. With nothing to cramp his energies

or chide his hopes and aspirations, the intelligent European who seeks this country for a home may reasonably look forward to comfort, if not wealth and position, as the result of a few years of well directed labour.
Those, indeed, were halcyon days lor the people of eastern Canada, days which have been succeeded by lack of prosperity, by lack of contentment. In 1874, during the regime of Alexander Mackenzie, his government sent to the old land representatives with a view to inviting people to make their home in this new land. One of the gentlemen thus sent, Mr. Thomas Potts, of St. John, a gentleman -who was well and favourably known throughout eastern Canada, but who has long since gone to his rest, delivered a speech in the city of Liverpool, which was published by the Liverpool ' Daily Post ' and widely circulated throughout Great Britain. After speaking of the resources of Canada generally, 'he came down to the province of New Brunswick specially, and I desire to make a shart quotation from his remarks :
Let me tell you further that Canada is one of the best governed and one of the least taxed countries in the world. The taxes imposed by the general government are scarcely one-fifth of what they are in the United States. {Cheers). In this connection, permit me to remark that I have found on the minds of many gentlemen I have met a very wrong impression. In conversation some time ago with the president of the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester he said: r Why do you in Canada put high tariffs upon our goods to protect your own manufactures? ' I respectfully said to him, what I now repeat, that we do nothing of the kind. Upon some articles the duty is moderately high, upon others there is no duty. There are upwards of eighty articles upon the-Canadian catalogue that come in free, the greater part of which are imported from England. For example, everything that enters into the construction of a ship, the whole of which is imported from England, except the wood and the labour, comes in free. The average Canadian tariff for 1871 was only 12J per cent, while that of the United States was 45 per cent. Canada puts on no tariffs for protective purposes. She puts duties on the articles that can best bear them, hut for nothing more than to pay her liabilities and keep her credit unimpeachable. And we want British capitalists to understand that she is determined to keep herself in that position.
Subsequent events show how wrong be was in his prophetic vision.
A gentleman largely interested in manufactures in Rockdale said to me one day: Why don't you take the duties off our goods and tax the people direct for the support of the government ? ' I replied:	' Why don t
you in England follow that plan?' I admit it would be the cheapest way a country could he governed; and after all your experience, you find there is something you are compelled to put in the bill where they can't see it.	,
Perhaps that is not a correct conclusion as to the conditions which then 'existed in Great Britain, but beyond question i-t_ is true with respect to the conditions which prevailed in Canada during that period. Now, Sir, I have referred to these matters with a view of diagnosing the conditions and to .applying a remedy. I am in hearty accord with the policy of publicity, I am in hearty .accord with the desire .evinced in the resolution, and which is so important to eastern.Canada. But that remedy will not alone be .sufficient to meet the requirements. What we want is to make Canada a cheap .country to live in, and to that end we must create trade, we must create a home market. I am heart 'and *soul with the policy of creating 'home markets, and I think the best way to create home .markets is to stimulate production, and by stimulating production we will inevitably increase population. There earn be no question as to the effect which would follow upon Canada by increasing our home markets. My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior would not then have to carry on his shoulders the sin of blocking the way of progress in the matter of population in eastern Canada.
1 do not think it is fair to throw the responsibility upon Providence, or the departments for this matter of population. I have felt called upon to analyse the resolution, and to point out to my hon. friend wherein he has failed in applying the whole remedy. I think that western Canada has been wisely advertised. I am not blaming this, or the preceding government, or the government preceding that. The conditions which have prevailed have been inevitable. The Minister of the Interior in all governments is likely to continue to [DOT]be .a gentleman who 'represents western Canada, not that he would not represent eastern Canada .as well, but his attention would be largely confined to, and his interest largely directed towards our western country. It is natural, it is human. There have been efforts made with respect to urging upon previous governments the desirability of paying particular attention to eastern Canada. I am told that if you go into the Canadian government office in London you will not find a man who knows anything about Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or Prince Edward Island, and they know very little about Quebec or Ontario. They know the west, they are schooled in it. That has been unfortunate and in so far as governments are responsible for it I charge it upon the preceding government as I charge it upon the government that preceded that one. But, this is not a matter of inquiring into the conditions that were. The object of this resolution is to direct our eyes towards the future, to have action taken at the present time, and in the future that will remedy these existing

facts. I know that this resolution will be viewed favourably by every one in my constituency, and by the people throughout Canada. I know that there are those who will favour it, and yet who will say that it does not contain all. The hon. member for Kings, N.S., (Mr. Foster) in his remarks endeavoured to refute some statements that were made by the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll). I do not think he was successful in that. He talked about some of our natural resources, our apple barrels, our fish, and our apples. When he mentions fish he knows that the vessels that sail out from Nova Scotia upon the fishing banks work side by side with the American vessels, and that when they get their catch the American vessel can sail into the open market of the city of Boston with its cargo and sell the fish at a price which, in the case of mackerel and cod, is nearly double the price that the Canadian fisherman receives at either Can-so or Halifax. The Canadian fisherman is obliged to go to the market in Halifax, he is there met with monopolistic prices, and he is compelled to sell. The American goes into the market of the United States, and he enjoys advantages twice as great as those enjoyed by his Canadian brother fisherman. They both endured the same hardships, they underwent the same peril, but their rewards are entirely different. My hon. friend spoke of apple barrels and he thought that we should not seek a market for shingles, laths and small lumber that are so largely produced in eastern Canada, but that we should conserve this lumber for the manufacturer of apple barrels. The people of Nova Scotia, I believe, make barrels out of spruce and soft lumber. I do not know that that has been the practice in other parts of the Dominion, and I do not know that it has been a great advantage to the people of Nova Scotia. But if it had been so that is no reason why the lumberman should not have the advantage of the expansion of these resources simply because in the dim and distant future the apple growth of Nova Scotia may so increase that all this lumber would be exhausted in the manufacture of apple barrels. But these are only incidents, and they do not in any way touch the vital, the sore spot that is involved in the subject of this resolution, a sore spot that has certainly existed, and does exist to-day in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island. It is something intolerable to think that Prince Edward Island, with 103,000 population in 1S01 is nearly 10,000 short in that number of souls, at this census. It is something awful, it is lamentable, that a peo-hardy, energetic and intelligent should not be able to live under the conditions which to-day surround them, amidst the most fruitful valleys, and rugged hills, and with the rich resources that nature has Mr. EMMEKSON.
provided for them. It is lamentable, I say, that they should not be able to hold their own, to grow and expand, and to gather around them, if not their own people, at least those from abroad. The states of the union are filled with deported Nova Scotians. Western Canada can rejoice that she is receiving from the maritime provinces such a splendid representation. The western provinces are to be congratulated, but Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island are to be condoled with. It is our loss. It is all very well to talk about the growth of this magnificent Dominion. It is to express a beautiful sentimeht, and also an undoubted fact, to say that we have a magnificent heritage, that we are helping to build up western Canada, and that we should all be proud of our country. That is all very nice, but when you come down to the cold, hard facts of dilapidated country districts, dwindling towns and villages, and a decreasing population in almost every rural constituency, and when you contemplate these things all this beautiful word picturing that you have with regard to the west is no compensation to us.
It is a sad commentary on the conditions there to realize that the hopes of the pioneers in these provinces have been blasted and that their descendants have been unable to realize their aspirations.


Mr.  J. A. M.@: 

the Minister of Agriculture received the consent of the Minister of the Interior. At this time I had charge of the Colonization Department for the government of Ontario, I wrote as follows to the Superintendent of Immigration:
Toronto, Ontario, April 21, 1911.
Dear Sir
We find that many immigrants hooked to Toronto and other points in western Ontario do not reach their destination. This often happens where men have received loans to assist them to come to Ontario. We also have a great number of applications for men from eastern Ontario. In order to, if possible, get in touch with the former and supply the latter, without having the immigrant come to Toronto, we would like to have an officer connected with this branch stationed at the port of landing, particularly Quebec. We would esteem it a favour if such officer would be allowed office room in the Immigration Office at the port of landing and also be allowed the privilege of interviewing parties for this province and having them hooked direct to applicants.
An early reply will he much appreciated.
Yours truly,
DONALD SUTHERLAND, Director of Colonization.
W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Superintendent of Immigration,
Ottawa, Ont.
I received the following reply from the STi'perintendeint of immigration:
Ottawa, April 26, 1911.
Sir:-
I heg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 22nd instant in regard to distribution of farm help. Your experience is much the same as our own and is probably due to the fact that the demand for general labourers and skilled workers is unusually great at this season of the year, thus offering tempting openings to immigrants who might otherwise have taken farm work. We have, as you are aware, quite a number of employment agents in eastern Ontario, none of whom are able to secure a sufficient supply of help; in fact I do not know that they are any worse off than those west of Toronto.
I regret being unable to comply with your request in the matter of stationing one of your officers at the port of Quebec. We have been obliged to refuse this privilege on a good many different occasions, and I am afraid to open the door now would only result in confusion.
Your obedient servant,


W. D. SCOTT,
[Stage Direction]
Superintendent of Immigration.
On the strength of the letter that had been recived from, the Minister of the Interior by the Minister of Agriculture of Ontario, and owing to the fact that we had a large number of men coming out to whom we had advanced loans, I sent an agent from the department to Quebec to meet that party and had made arrangements with the Canadian Northern railway people to have access to their office at the immigration building there in order to meet Mr. SUTHERLAND.
them. A short time afterwards, I received a letter from the party sent down stating that he had been refused access to the building and had been notified that he would not be permitted to interview these people on their arrival. A little later I received a letter from the superintendent of immigration notifying us that they were going to enforce regulations that would provide that for those being sent to the Ontario Government Labour Bureau at Toronto the booking agent would not Teceive the customary $5 bonus. After having received that, I had occasion to write again and I sent the following letter:
Toronto, Ont., June 10, 1911.
Dear Sir:-
I am in receipt of your letter of the 1st instant in reply to mine of the_ 25th ult., with reference to a number of immigrants who recently arrived here and who gained admission, to Canada through false pretences.
My object in calling your attention to the matter was owing to a clause in the Immigration Act which makes this sufficient cause for deportation. I note that you do not consider this sufficient cause to have them deported. I can give their names and full particulars, if necessary, but in view of your refusal to make an example of others in similar circumstances I have not done so.
I do also note the intention of your department to discontinue paying bonus to farm labourers, booked to Toronto, after the 1st of October next and your statement regarding the cause of your having adopted the present mode of distributing immigrants through your local agents throughout Ontario. In view of the serious consequences likely to result to this province from withdrawing the bonus oh immigrants placed by this office, I desire to call your attention to several features connected with securing farm help for Ontario.
It was as a result of your department having appointed local employment agents at various points in the province that the distributing from Toronto by this department was given up in 1907 and the office here has since that time remained in charge of pour department, but the problem of securing farm help becomes more acute than ever. So much so that it was found necessary, in order to meeit the demands of the province for ,the Ontario Department of Agriculture to again resume the distribution of immigrants from here. Very little attention had been paid to the requirements of this province either in the literature circulated by the department or by the agents connected therewith employed m Great Britain. Booking agents have repeatedly complained about the unsatisfactory method of sending men to fill applications received by the local agent9, of which they have been advised, as they have frequently found that the places were filled when the immigrant arrived here, owing to the length of time that must necessarily elapse between the time the application is made and the time it can be filled. Our attention had been called to many instances of this kind by parties who were disappointed in this way and for whom we had secured situations. This has also something to do

with the unsatisfactory reports sent home by immigrants which have appeared from time to time in the British press. There has been a severe drain made by the west on the supply of farm labourers in this province. The Ontario government is spending large sums to promote immigration to Ontario and is in a position to look after farm labourers on their arrival here. With our system we reduce to a minimum the danger of sending any one out to places already filled.
The withdrawal of the bonu s on farm labourers induced to come to Ontario by our agents and to whom we guarantee employment will be a serious handicap to this province securing a fair share of the immigration to Canada. The demand of the industrial centres will have to be supplied one way or another. They are continually drawing from the men sent to farm work. You will find that many men who have been sent to your local agents have been induced to accept employment in towns and cities after a short stay on the farm,. I hope that you will reconsider your decision to withhold the bonus on parties being sent to us, as after all the percentage who do not go out immediately on arrival here is very small and with a little firmness in dealing with them, I think that nearly all difficulty on that score would be removed.
Yours truly,
D. SUTHERLAND, Director of Colonization.
We find that on the 5th of July, notwithstanding the protest mialde against the proposed policy of that government, a circular was sent to the British booking agents notifying them what the consequences would be if they continued, sending men,, as they had been sending them, to the Ontario government. I will read that circular :
Ottawa, July 5.
Canadian government employment agents were appointed in Ontario and Quebec so that persons desirous of securing work on farms might proceed 'to the point at which these agents are located and without charge, be placed in suitable positions. The department regrets that some of the British booking agents have neglected to direct persons booked by them to these employment agents, hut have booked them to large cities where no employment agent is located, with the result that the immigrant has engaged in industrial pursuits, and so been lost to the agricultural communities.
With the object of remedying this condition, it has been decided that no bonus will be paid up on immigrants arriving on or .after October 1, 1911
[Stage Direction]
Fortunately tbey did not have much to do with matters after that date.
[Stage Direction]
who are booked to cities in Ontario and
Quebec where no Canadian government employment agent is located. Rooking agents have been supplied with a list of Canadian government employment agents corrected to March 1, 1911, and if further copies are needed they may be secured from Mr. J. Obed Smith, assistant superintendent of emigration, 11-12 Charing Cross, London, S.W.
Booking agents will he good enough to understand that it is the intention of the depart-68J
ment to enforce this rule strictly and in the event of any claims being disallowed on those grounds, _ nothing will induce the department to alter its original decision, unless the agent interested can supply this department with the name and address of the farmer with whom the immigrant, upon whom the ' bonus has been refused,' is working.
Bonus will be paid as heretofore upou domestic servants whether going to country districts, to towns or cities.
Your obedient servant,
[DOT]	.	W. D. SCOTT,
Superintendent of Immigration.
The list sent out to the British booking agents would show that there were no agents in the city of Toronto itself. As a result of these circulars there 'are but very few immigrants now coming to Ontario. With about several hundred applications on file the Ontario Government Bureau at j-oronto and the farmers of Ontario are asking for men, but are not being supplied even at this time of the year. I received a notice from the 'superintendent of immigration dated 15th January, 1912, notifying me that two of these local distributing agents in the riding I represent, appointed by the late government, had sent in their resignation'. I wrote back asking him to give me the date of the resignation, and how many men they bad placed in the last two years. I received the following reply:	b
In reply to your favour of the 18th instant, 1 beg to state that Charles H. Denton, of lilfeonburg, resigned on January 4, 1912. In 1910 he placed 9 farm labourers, and in 1911 3 farm labourers, 2 domestics and 4 children' H. Van Valkenburg, of Norwich, resigned on January 8 1912, having placed no immigrants irom the date of his appointment.
Now these are the kind of agents the late government appointed in the various constituencies, and a great many of them are placing just about as many immigrants as those two of whose resignations I have been notified. I know that to-day the people realize that it is absolutely useless to apply to the Department of the Interior for farm labourers on account .of the process that their application must go through. Possibly half a dozen booking agents in the old country may be notified or they may not be notified, to send un the men. The notice has to go to the Superintendent of Immigration, thence to the assistant superintendent, thence to the bqoking agent, and sometimes two or three months may elapse before the farmer can be supplied, and he has to engage some one else. You see, Mr. Speaker, how ridiculous such a policy is. I believe it was conceived with the idea of obstructing the policy of the Ontario government in regard to supplying farm labourers in that province. I have asked for the returns-which have not yet been brought down-as to the amount that has been earned by the differ-
[Stage Direction]
ent employment agents in the various provinces. I find that there have been 82 appointed in the province ol Ontario, and 16 in the province of Quebec; 1 believe those were the only provinces m which they adopted this method. 1 want to point out that most of the large tiuiius earners nre located in the city of Montreal, i believe one of them is an agent of the province of Quebec, and the other is engaged m bringing out domestic servants, not only to Ontario, but to Quebec well. Outside of these, the number that has been placed lias been very small indeea, ana altogether inadequate to the demand. Therefore, 1 contend that the resolution now before the House does not go far enough, but that it should include the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. For the reason I have pointed out, unless the demand is supplied the result to the province of Ontario is going to be disastrous. I may also cay that the railways are largely responsible for the difficulty in the province oi Ontario. We have dealt generously with the railways of this country, and we find that every fall, at the very time of the year when the farmer requires help more than at any other season, the railways offer low rates to take farm labourers out to supply the demand of the wheat miners of the west; they offer rates that are not fair to the farmers of Ontario. Many of them have engaged men by the year, and these men when they hear of these low rates become restless and dissatisfied, and want to go west, and the farmer has to let them go, as becoming dissatisfied they would be little use "to him, although he lias employed them by the year. I may say that not only the railways, but the press of this country also is largely responsible for the way in which Ontario is annually denuded of farm labourers. In view of the training that farm labourers receive in the old country, they have to get acquainted with the methods of agriculture in this country before they can become thoroughly efficient; therefore, I .think that the department should see to it that the province of Ontario is supplied with labour fitted to her requirements. I hope that the present government will take hold of this matter vigorously, without discriminating against any province in Canada, and will do their whole duty to every province. I hope they will establish a labour bureau in every province of this Dominion, and see that each province is treated fairly. I may also point out that although we have built a railway into northern Ontario the late government has done nothing towards advertising that district. The time has come *when it is necessary to do something in that respect. The late government did issue a small pamphlet dealing with the Rainy River and Thunder Bay district, and Mr. SUTHERLAND.
another one last year dealing with the Niagara peninsula. It is said that the appropriations made to Ontario have been small indeed. Let me say in conclusion, that during the past year the Ontario government had 7 agents in the old land. The people of Ontario require especially more labourers and domestic servants. I contend that the regulation that was passed by the late government on July 5, was one that the people of Ontario resented. It ill becomes any government to resort to tactics such as those resorted to by the late government. I am glad to know that they did not have an opportunity to put their; policy into effect for any great length of time, and I hope the present government will be more generous. I understand they have cancelled the restrictions referred to.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES (Kings, P.E.I.).: There is no doubt that tire policy ot the government for some years past has been directed more especially toward getting people to go into western Canada rather than eastern Canada; perhaps it was because the government thought that eastern Canada was fairly well populated already, and that the east could look after itself. As a matter of fact, the results show that the east, in this respect at all events, could not look after itself without assistance from the federal government, because the bulk of the immigrants, practically all the immigrants that came to this country, went into the west. I think, now that the tide of immigration has set so strongly towards the west, that the government could afford for a few years to neglect that part of the country and turn its attention toward the east. If they did that for a few years, no doubt a sufficient number of people would still go into the west to meet the requirements of that part of the country, as many would go as could be perhaps assimilated. Now, it is generally (supposed that eastern Canada has a soil as fertile as that of the west. In my remarks I will confine myself to Prince Edward Island chiefly, as that is where I live. I cultivated a farm myself some years ago, about the ordinary size in Prince Edward Island, and I will tell you what it produced. I do this chiefly for the benefit of the Minister of the Interior, who lias most to do with the policy of immigration. I found I could produce from an acre of land about 300 bushels of merchantable potatoes, 800 bushels of other vegetables, such as turnips and mangles. I could produce from 30 to 35 bushels of wheat to the acre, about 50 bushels of oats, about 40 bushels of barley, from 3 to 4 tons of hay. I do not think the west could do much bet: ter than that. Of course, there is this . great .difference; in the east we have to ap-

ply manure to the soil in order to get these results, but I am informed they have not got to do that in the west at the present time. The time will come probably when they will be obliged to do that.
It is under ordinary conditions that we get these results. I am told that under better conditions much better results would be obtained. Dr. McPhail of McGill University who is now growing potatoes largely in Prince Edward Island has told me that he can get 500 bushels of merchantable potatoes from an acre of land and that he can produce that result by applying some $12 worth of commercial fertilizers and seeding down to clover every three Real's. Results like that, providing we had a market for the produce, must be profitable. We have about a million acres of land on Prince Edward Island, practically all cultivable, and providing one fifth of that was devoted to the growing of potatoes under Dr. McPhail's plan, there would be nothing like a market in Canada [DOT]aind we would have to look for a market abroad. There is no doubt that if we had access to the New England states for that article, at all events, it would be a very great advantage to us. It may be asked: Why acre we losing our population in the eastern provinces, particularly in Prince Edward Island where the soil is so fertile, when we can produce such abundant crops. There is no doubt that we are losing population and it appears to me that our young people will leave us anyhow. Some years ago it was considered that perhaps farm work was more laborious, that it was more -shall I call it, degraded?-and that an equal degree of credit could not be obtained from work of that kind as that which could be obtained by work in a profession or some other occupation of life. The young people therefore were lured to the states. Since the west has been opened up the lure of the west has drawn our young people away. They are going away and, in my judgment, they will continue to go. Many of our young people have gone to the United States and as a rule they have done well and the reports that come back induce others to go. They have gone to the cities of Canada and to the west and they have done well. Farm help has become so scarce that it is very difficult to operate a farm in Prince Edward Island. When the young people go away and the older people find they cannot get farm help they simply have to sell the farms or leave them and for these reasons there are a number of vacant farms in Prince Edward Island that may be purchased cheaply. I think that perhaps similar conditions prevail in other provinces. If the Minister of the Interior could obtain farmers in the British Isles or in northern Europe with a small amount of capital, with even
$2,000, accustomed to farming, such people might settle in Prince Edward Island with a considerable degree of safety. If they had $3,000 or $4,000 so much the better. You can purchase cultivated farms with buildings in a fair state of repair for from $15 to $50 per acre. I sold a farm I had with good outbuildings at $30 an acre largely because it was almost impossible to get farm help. There is a good field for young men and women who would be disposed to go upon the farms as farm help. There is a good field for a reasonable number of men from -the old country who had a small amount of capital and would like to settle in a country such as the eastern provinces rather than go to the west. I do not think efforts have been made in the past to get that class of people to come to Canada. The men who have been brought to the west have gone out there to farm upon a large scale, but the small farmer, the man who is accustomed to a mixed farming and who perhaps would wish such under established conditions, would be an acquisition and if this class is obtainable every effort should be made to get it. I believe our young people will leave us anyhow, and the only way to get the farms occupied is by getting men from the British Isles and Northern Europe. If that could be done it would be a great advantage. There is no doubt that Prince Edward Island would support a population three times as large as that which we have now. We have now something over 90,000. Some few years ago we had over 100,000. Losing our population like that is a most deplorable thing, but if we could get people to take the places of those who are leaving it would be an important thing for us and anything the government can do along that line would he of advantage to the eastern provinces and to the whole of Canada. The railways do something, perhaps, to take the young people from Prince Edward Island and the eastern provinces, and I think that their policy in this regard is scarcely fair to the eastern part of the country. They give very cheap rates for these harvest excursions and a great many young people, desiring to see the west and to see something away from their homes, take advantage of these cheap excursions and go into the west, perhaps with the intention of coming back, hut inasmuch as the railways charge a very high rate for bringing them back, many of them do not come. I think that is unfair. If something could be done to compel the railways to bring back the young men and women who wanted to come back at the same rate as they took them out west it would he only just and fair. A number of our people leave us on these cheap

harvest excursions and do not return. They are induced by the railways to do that, and chiefly by the Canadian Pacific railway. I wish to make these few remarks for the benefit of the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Rogers) or for those who will have this matter under consideration. There is plenty of room for the right kind of immigrant in eastern Canada, and particularly for farmers with small capital and farm labourers. We are very much in need of that class of people. Whatever the Minister of the Interior or the government can do towards that end will be greatly appreciated in the east and will help to build up the whole of Canada.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN (Halifax).: 
Mr. A. A. McLEAN (Queens, Prince Edward Island).: 
Robert Rogers: Before making any reference to the subject matter of the resolution introduced by my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes), I would like to say a word or two with reference to the remarks which have fallen from some hon. gentlemen who spoke after him. In the first place, let me say to my hon. friend the member for Westmorland that I heard with Mr. M'LEAN (Queens, P.E.I.)
some surprise-his statement to the effect that in the immigration office in the city of London, England, we have no representative who knows anything at all about Nova Scotia or the maritime provinces. Let me say to him that if, when I make inquiry, I find that he is correct in his statement, I shall take the earliest possible opportunity of seeing that we have in that important office men who have thorough knowledge .and <are able to speak intelligently regarding the possibilities end resources of every province in our Dominion.
I am not going to attempt at this late hour to follow the hon. gentleman in his discussion of that old question of reciprocity, which, so far as the people of Canada are concerned, is dead and buried for all time to come. I cannot agree with the proposition of the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson) that in view of the present conditions it would not be wise to invite immigrants to the maritime provinces. As the minister presiding over the Department of the Interior, I propose to invite immigration to the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island in the same form and manner and with the same hope of results that I do to the other provinces of this Dominion, believing as I do with an intense conviction that we have in the maritime provinces, in common with the other provinces of Canada, great possibilities which should attract immigrants who want to better their condition. As a result of that great National Policy which was laid down many years ago, and which has been adopted and followed by both parties in this Dominion from that day to this, we are in the proud position in Canada of being able to point to the fact that we have more desirable conditions for intending immigrants than those which can be found in any other country in the world. Therefore, it becomes my duty as the minister of that department to lend every energy I possess to the work of carrying out a policy such as I believe will be best calculated to increase our population to the advantage of those who come as well as for the upbuilding of the country. Now, I have taken careful note of the remarks of my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Maclean), and I shall be glad to Teeeive the representations which he proposes to make, and I can assure him that they will receive full, clear and faithful consideration at the hands of the department. I have also taken very careful note of the suggestions which my hon. friend from the St. Lawrence division (Mr. Bicker-dike) has made for certain amendments in the regulations. I am not clear at the moment whether the changes which he

recommends would be advisable and desirable at the present time, but I shall be glad to give them the consideration which they require. In respect to the resolution itself, I entirely agree with the statements which have been so clearly placed before this House by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes). When I took charge of the Department of Immigration I at once saw, from an examination of the records, that in my judgment some improvement could be made in that department, and I found that that improvement could be best made by a policy of co-operation with the different provinces. To that end an officer was engaged, whose duty it was to visit the different provinces, and I am glad to say that that work is meeting with good results. I have had as a result of that course a visit from the Premier of British Columbia and one or two of his colleagues, and they are in a most hearty manner cooperating with us with respect to immigration to that province. I have also had a visit from a representative of the government of Ontario in the person of Mr. Duff, the Minister of Agriculture, and I am glad to be able to inform this House that I have been able to arrange a policy of co-operation with the great province of Ontario under which we are not going to duplicate our work, as we have done in the past, but are going to work together in harmony, and by this means are going to accomplish greater results for immigration in that province in the future than has ever been done in the past. I also had the pleasure of meeting the Premier of the province of New Brunswick and his Attorney General, and discussed with them the policy that they propose to inaugurate, better calculated to bring immigration to that province. I am very much encouraged by the aggressive policy which Mr. Fleming and his colleagues propose to adopt in connection with [DOT] the work in New Brunswick. I have made an arrangement with them by which we propose to assist them largely in their aggressive policy, and I am satisfied that as time goes on very fruitful and very desirable results will be found to come from the arrangements which we have made in this connection, and which I believe will be announced by the Premier of New Brunswick in the very near future. We have invited every province of the Dominion to co-operate with us, and every province will receive fair and generous treatment at the hands of this government.
Adopting, as we have, a policy which we believe to be that calculated to advance the best interests of our common country, a policy that will be common to all the
provinces of Canada, I do not desire in speaking of our immigration, to know either eastern Canada or western Canada. Let me say to those who have spoken this afternoon that we are going to inaugurate a policy by which we shall give publicity to every province in Canada. The gentlemen from the maritime provinces have pointed out in very able .addresses the great possibilities which those provinces possess, possibilities which in themselves are inviting to intending immigrants in many, respects; and it becomes our duty, as the central government, to advertise these advantages to the people of the world, in order that the maritime provinces in common with the others, may secure all advantages, and in order that the attractions which they possess may be presented to the intending immigrants from all parts of Europe, the United States, and elsewhere, who desire to become citizens of our Dominion.
Now, we have only to look at the returns of immigration in Canada during the last year, to find that the immigration to the three maritime provinces was less, I believe, than one third of the immigration secured by any other province in this Dominion. In view of this condition, I say, I am not surprised that we should have the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Rhodes), and other hon. members in this House from the maritime provinces, bringing to the attention of this parliament and of the people of the country, the advantages they .possess in those provinces. In view of the fact, they claim that the maritime provinces have not been getting their share of immigration. And the evidence of the correctness of their statement is to be found in the figures to which I have just referred. I am not here to say, nor am I in a position to say, what the reasons are that they have not secured a greater increase than that which I have named. But I am here to say, as representing the Department of Immigration, and voicing the policy of the government of the day, that we propose a policy of cooperation with all the provinces, to lend every assistance in our power, to give to the maritime provinces, and the other provinces all the support and all the assistance which a very healthy treasury is able to give, in order to bring immigration to Canada, with a view to having here a happy and contented people in greater, and much greater, numbers than we have at this time.


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton).: Mr. Speaker, I do not desire to criticise the resolution or to find fault with the policy of the Department of Immigration^ as laid down by the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Rogers). But inasmuch as a large part of the remarks offered to the House this after-

noon and evening have practically been in criticism of the previous administration of the department, it would, hardly be in place for me to let the occasion pass without having something to say in regard to that administration and policy. The hon. members who have preceded me said frequently that they wanted a Canadian policy, a policy that would build up Canada. Well, I take it that Canada has been built up with a fair degree of rapidity during the past few years under the immigration policy that has been followed. When we consider the increase in the population of Canada during the past few years-increasing, remember, from year to year until the year which has just closed has shown the largest immigration that ever took place in the history of this country-and in view of probably a larger percentage of increased population than has ever occurred in the history of any other country in the world, it might be thought that a policy having such success might have received commendation rather than adverse criticism. The policy which achieved such results was not by any means a haphazard policy. And let me suggest further that a policy on the lines which have been suggested by the larger number of our friends who have spoken here tonight, could not by any possibility have achieved such success for this Dominion of Canada. Some of our friends who have spoken seem to think that immigration is a matter of finding the people in one place, picking them up and removing them to some other place. I do not think my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Rogers) is under any such impression. But I can assure the House that if he is, or if his colleagues are under that impression, they will find they are greatly mistaken. The first requisite of successful immigration effort is opportunity for the immigrants. I will admit that advertising is valuable; and the evidence given here today proves that the advertising efforts under the late adminstration were reasonably successful, and, I presume correspondingly satisfactory. But advertising alone will not make successful immigration effort. It assists. But the original foundation of success is opportunity for the immigrant. Unless you have the_ opportunity, you cannot get the immigration by all the advertising expenditure you see fit to make. It was because of the opportunities in western Canada that the immigration to western Canada has been so much larger in proportion than that to other portions of Canada, and not because of the advertising. So far as the advertising is concerned, I will just say for the information of the House, that the most important piece of immigration literature gotten out by the Interior Department during my administration was an atlas of Canada which gave every province in Can-Mr. OLIVER.
ada equal treatment both in maps and in descriptive matter. This atlas is used in schools not only in many parts of Canada, but in foreign countries as well, notably in Belgium. It is also used in schools largely in England. And in that .atlas the maritime provinces had practically the same consideration in proportion to area and population as the western provinces had. Again, a very large sum of money was spent in maps-' school maps ' as they were called- which gave, of course, a complete view of the whole Dominion without partiality to one section or another.
Also when delegations have come out from the old country at the instance of the Interior Department to look over Canada to see what opportunities there were, they toured the maritime provinces just as well as the prairie provinces, and reported upon the opportunities they found there. Besides that, special pamphlets have been got out to describe particularly the advantages of the maritime provinces. I do not question for a moment the possibility of larger efforts, toeing made in the future th an have been made in the past. I do not find any fault with such efforts, I wish them all success, and believe they will achieve some success. But I say that if the department, in the past ten years, had directed its main efforts and its main expenditures to securing settlers for the eastern provinces, the results to Canada would not have been in any measure such as they have been under the policy that has been pursued. It is not in the nature of the case possible, and it will not be possible in the future, should it ever be attempted; and I give the Minister of the Interior credit for too much common sense ever to attempt such a policy. The result of the policy that has been pursued in securing the - occupation and development of western Canada has been essentially and truly a Canadian policy, because it has been upon the successful development of western Canada, so far as that development has yet gone, that the prosperity and progress of this whole Dominion has been built. Its increase in cultivated land and in the number of farms occupied, in the products of the soil of those western provinces, has stimulated manufacturing enterprises in all parts of eastern Canada, and in no part more than in the very town of the hon. member for Cumberland, the town of Amherst where he resides. The town of Amherst depends very largely for its progress and prosperity on the settlement and development of western Canada. Of course, I give every credit to the enterprising men of Amherst who have established manufacturing enterprises in that city. But all the enterprises that could have been centred in Amherst, with all the ability of her business men, could not have succeeded were it .not for the development of the

great Northwest, and the cultivation of the wheat fields of that country.
Now a lament has been made of the loss of population in the maritime provinces. From one point of view I must say that I have no sympathy with it. If the maritime provinces have not increased in population as fast as other parts of the Dominion there is a reason for it, a reason not to the discredit of its people, but rather to their credit. They are an active and energetic people, who look for opportunities wherever they may be found, and they seize the best that can be found, whether they be far or near. It is just because they have looked for wider and better opportunities than existed at home that the population of the maritime provinces has not increased, because the people have gone elsewhere where they could do better. It is immeasurably to the benefit of Canada as a whole that the population ol the maritime provinces, instead of congesting there during the past five, ten or twenty years, has been spread far and wide over the whole Dominion. If the lack of increase of population was due entirely to the movement of the people of those provinces to western Canada, I say again that the maritime provinces are to be congratulated instead of being condoled with.
Unfortunately the natural increase of population in the maritime provinces, which I am given to understand is more than ordinarily rapid, has not been retained in those provinces. This is a fact to be deplored. I believe that a very large proportion, very much more than fifty per cent, has gone to the United States. This has been greatly to the advantage of the United States, and correspondingly to the disadvantage of Canada. If previous governments had established active agencies in the maritime provinces to secure a movement of people for the prairie west of Canada, fifteen or twenty years ago, would not Canada have been better off to-day, and would not the maritime provinces themselves be just as well, or better off? I say it is little less than a crime to have allowed so many young men of those provinces to go every year to the United States, while not a finger was raised to prevent that exodus. It would have been ten times better for the government of Canada to have entered upon an active immigration campaign in those provinces in order to create a movement of their people to the prairies of the west instead of to the United States. Canada would have been far, far ahead, not only in money, but in men, in prestige, and in national spirit as well. I bad the pleasure of attending a dinner in Boston on the 24th of May last, a dinner given by the Intercolonial Club, and I was appalled, Mr. Speaker, at the figures that were given me of the number of people of lower province birth who were resident in the city of Boston, in the state
of Massachusetts, and in the other New England states. If I remember right, I was told that there were not less than 30,000 people of maritime province birth permanently resident in the city of Boston, and over 100,000 in the state of Massachussetts. There is no doubt that they form a very important element of the population of the city of Boston, and of the state of Massachussetts. I say it is most unfortunate that this should be the case. The late government was so impressed with that condition of affairs that we established an immigration agency in the city of Boston for the express purpose of getting back some of the maritime province people, and directing them to our prairie west. We achieved some success, and I am sorry to read in the newspapers that the present administration has seen fit to close the office. I think it was doing valuable work, and more valuable work could have beeen done. I believe that a very considerable movement could have been secured of those people toward our northwest. A moderate movement had already been started, and I believe it would have increased with time. Now let me put this thought before our friends.
It is not to the interest of Canada that a man who has good abilities shall be kept in an environment where he cannot use those, abilities to his own advantage or to the advantage of the country. With respect to the man who is born, we will say, in Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick in that condition of life that does not give him a farm to cultivate or a business to conduct, and who must spend his time in those provinces an employee of some other person, surely it is to the interest of Canada that that man, by removing to our Canadian west, becomes a proprietor land a producer on a large scale and adds enormously to the productive wealth of the country year by year. Is it not to the benefit of the country as well as to the individual himself, that instead of only securing a livelihood in Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick, by taking advantage of the opportunities which exist on the prairies, lie is able to become a producer on a large scale, and become, we will siay, a man of wealth and substance? Surely it is to the good of Canada that this change should be made as well as to the good of the man himself. I do not sympathize witb the view that would restrict the people of the maritime provinces, Quebec or Ontario, to the limited opportunities of those provinces when the greater opportunities of the western provinces are available to them. I want it to be distinctly understood that I have no word of discredit for the maritime provinces, or fox Ontario and Quebec, or the opportunities that exist there. Probably there are no more beautiful coun-

tries in the world. Probably there is no country where the advantages are greater, but if the initial advaintagea of this country have been occupied:, if (they have been, 'absorbed by the population Which has been resident there for ia series of generations', it is reason and common sense that the same opportunity does not exist there for the recent generation that does exist in a country that still lies vacant and is open to the first man who takes advantage of it. That is the situation and that is why the population in the west has increased and why the population in the maritime provinces 'and Ontario and Quebec has not increased. It is for the good of the country that the opportunities of the western provinces are taken .advantage of by Canadians as much as possible. It would have been a misfortune for Canada if these opportunities had not been taken 'advantage of by Canadians and Canadians could not stay at home in the eastern provinces and still take advantage of them. There is nothing to regret because they have availed themselves of them. The only regret is that the people of eastern Canada, in so many thousands, have gone to the United States; have added their population and their wealth and their energy to that country and that these have been lost to Canada. Over a million of our people, born in Canada, are to-<diay in the United States instead of in our own northwest building up our own country.
I do not wish to introduce any controversial matter, but I think the references of the hon. Minister of the Interior as to the results of what he was pleased to call the National Policy were scarcely unfortunate under these conditions when we consider that under the rule of that policy, when it was in its fullest blast, was the time when we lost most of our people, when they transferred themselves from this *country to that. We lost them and our rivals gained them. The hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) went into a good deal of detail as to the administration of immigration, matters in the province of Ontario and he found some fault with the attitude of the Dominion Department of Immigration. I do not know how his discourse struck other members of the House but when my hon. friend stated that he himself was an officer of the Ontario government administering matters, it struck me that from the amount of complaint that he was able to make and the readiness with which he found matter to complain of there would naturally *be some difficulty for another government to give any administration within the sphere of his influence that would be satisfactory to him. May I just suggest here that this is one of the difficulties that my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior Mr. OLIVER.
will have to deal with if he desires to co-operate with the provincial governments in regard to immigration effort.. I wish him all success, but I must say that any efforts of ours to co-operate with the provincial government of Ontario were not met with any spirit that tended to success and co-operation as the House might very well judge by the remarks of the hon. member for South Oxford. I do not wish to trouble the House with the details of the matter, but when we did the best we could to secure immigration of a desirable character to Ontario, we did not find the administration of the government of Ontario at all sympathetic or showing any apparent desire to co-operate with us in the effort. I hope the present minister will have more success in this line than I had. But, I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that in his mention of the interviews that he had with the different premiers of the different provinces his interviews so far were restricted to the premiers who were of the same political persuasion as himself, and did not happen to include the public representatives of the different provinces of a different political persuasion. There might be some difficulty in working out the problem on that line.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: They are all coming around now.


Frank Oliver: Well, I suppose that is tlie object. Until they do come around 1 think possibly there might be some little difficulty such as we had the misfortune to find in Ontario. I will not trouble the House with the details of our little difficulties in Ontario. We did the best we could and we believe that the immigration effort that we put forth in Ontario did have a good effect. But, we were quite aware of the limitation of our work and we would be very glad to see that work carried on with better results than we were able to 'achieve. Possibly with cordial cooperation between the Dominion and provincial governments better results can be achieved.
I want to say one word now in regard to the suggestion of the hon. member for Montreal, St. Lawrence (Mr. Bickerdike) in which he objects strongly to the financial restriction which is placed upon immigration. That financial restriction was not placed until there appeared to be the very greatest urgency and necessity for it. The financial restriction was placed upon immigration, and I do not think there is any doubt or that there can be any question that the improvement which we have secured in the standing and character of the immigrants who have come during the past few years, notwithstanding the tremendous increase in their numbers, is very largely due to the financial requirement

as well as other methods of selection and restriction.
I do not think it is possible in this day and generation to have a successlul immigration policy satisfactory to the people of this country unless it is selective and restrictive. It is true cases of hardship arise and it is true that in the past many have landed here who did not have twenty-five or fifty dollars, but the times have changed and I say it here now, and I say it strongly, that in my judgment a restrictive and selective immigration policy is an absolute necessity in this Dominion, and a financial requirement from the immigrant is one important feature of such a policy. I have no objection whatever to the resolution, but I must warn its mover (Mr. Rhodes), that he is too sanguine if he expects that any amount of government effort or government expenditure will achieve the same success in the maritime provinces as has been achieved in regard to the prairie provinces where the opportunities are greater.


Robert Bickerdike: Does not the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver), think that the immigrants should be examined at the port of embarkation.


Frank Oliver: The people have been kind enough to relieve me of the responsibility of administering the Immigration Department, and I do not think it important that I should give my opinion on that matter. However, I may frankly state that my view is that parliament having laid down the rule that immigrants shall not be admitted to Canada unless they meet certain physical and financial requirements, it is the duty of the government to carry out that law. It is a responsibility on the steamship companies that they shall not bring to our shores passengers who are not able to meet the requirements we have laid down, and if we took on ourselves the responsibility of holding an examination on the other side of the _water, we would be taking on our shoulders a responsibility that the circumstances did not call for, and we would not be any further ahead in protecting the immigrants. We have not jurisdiction outside of our shores, but the steamships have jurisdiction in the ports whence they sail. They hav" a nominal medical examination at these ports, and if they make that nominal medical examination practical there will be no trouble about it. I do not think it is a sound policy for Canada to undertake a medical examination on the other side of the Atlantic. In my judgment our immigration policy is best carried out by the methods pursued up to the present time.


Robert Bickerdike: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver), did not touch the real question.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member (Mr. Bickerdike), has already spoken.


Robert Bickerdike: I just wish to point out that there is no doubt we could get a law passed allowing examination before embarkation and although there might be extra expense it would be worth money. If my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) realized the great hardship experienced by these families which are broken up, he would recommend the new Minister of the Interior to change the existing law.


Frank Oliver: The steamship offices have their own medical officers and make an examination in the country from which the vessel sails, and if that examination is effective, it is all that is required, and if it is not effective, the steamship companies suffer the loss of taking the immigrants back again. I do not think the responsibility of this country goes any further than that. While I would not find any fault with the present Minister of Interior if he should order an examination on the other side, we will be borrowing trouble without achieving any good results.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. HAZEN moved the adjournment of the House.
Frank Oliver: What business to-morrow.


John Dowsley Reid: Bills and estimates.


Frank Oliver: Will the Grain Bill be
taken?


John Dowsley Reid: I understand it will.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at twelve o'clock midnight.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, January 30, 1912.