1909-12-13

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 67), respecting the Improved Paper Machinery Company.-Mr. Worthington.
Bill (No. 68), respecting the Kettle River Valley Railway Company.-Mr. Burrell.
Bill (No. 69), respecting the Prince Albert and Hudson Bay Railway Company. -Mr. Neely.
Bill (No. 70), to incorporate the Toronto Central Terminal Company.-Mr. Harris.

Mr.  E. N.@: LEWIS (West Huron) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 71) respecting assaults and offences against the person. He said:	The purpose of this Bill
is explained by its title. I have added to it the provision of the Bill which I introduced last year relating to homicide by hunters in the woods. I cannot explain this clause more clearly than by using the words of an editorial in the Ottawa * Citizen ' :
Hunting is a sport. Homicide is a crime. When a keen or careless sportsman in the bush sees something that he thinks is a deer, he fires at it, and subsequently discovers that he has killed a man. If he had seen his target properly he would have known beyond doubt whether it was a deer or a man. Not seeing it properly, he is not sure which it is, but he deliberately takes the chance of killing a man rather than miss shooting a deer. In other words, he does not give the human being the benefit of the doubt. If he gave the deer the benefit of the doubt, and it got away, he would lose about ten dollars' worth of venison. If he gave the man the benefit of the doubt, the life of a human being would be saved. Any hunter who will run the risk of killing a human being rather than risk losing ten dollars' worth of venison deserves to be in the penitentiary. Therefore, the ' Citizen ' thinks that the Bill of Mr. Lewis, M.P., to amend the Criminal Code should pass.
The other clauses of the Bill refer to assaults upon women and to punishment of tramps. I have here small items from newspapers from many parts of Canada. I may just mention some of them:	A despatch from Barrie, * Young farmer committed on charge of criminal assault '; from Stratford, * Stratford girl attacked; Cries frightened the man and he fled;' from London, ' Frightened to death by a tramp;' from Winnipeg, 'Another brute;' from Winnipeg, 'Tinsmith arrested; charged with criminal assault upon a child;' from Vancouver, ' Fiendish murder of a

seven-year-old.' This Bill proposes heavier punishment for such offences. How often, when a man is arrested for stealing-even if he has only stolen something to eat- the offender gets from three to five or even ten years. I have before me a newspaper item about a man getting fifteen years for breaking into a car in the city of Victoria. Here is another about a man who got three years for sending indecent post cards. But the man who assaults a child of five years gets only three months. This Bill propos_es to punish the wrong doer in such cases in such a way as to prevent the recurrence of such crimes.
Another clause has to do with what may be called a custom in this country which leads more to crimes by tramps than any other. In Ontario, at least, it is quite common for a magistrate before whom a prisoner is brought for having no visible means of support, to allow the man to go on the condition that he moves to another county. And in how many cases is that productive of crime? Take the case of the horrible murder committed in the city of Stratford, for which the criminal has just paid the last penalty; within the three weeks before that crime was committed that man had been arrested four times and had been allowed to go on condition of going into another county. The Bill empowers the magistrate, in the ease of a man arrested the second time as a vagrant, to send him into confinement under indeterminate sentence as a dangerous character to be at large.
And, Mr. Speaker, in view of the information contained in the newspapers to some items of which I have already referred, and many others which I have collected, I would ask your permission to say to the government that, in my opinion this Bill and others relating to criminal law should be referred to a committee for consideration. It is twenty years since the Criminal Code was really revised. I would suggest that the Committee on Privileges and Elections, which is a large committee with little to do, a committee composed of lawyers, experts in the enforcement of the criminal law, should have its power enlarged so that it may take into consideration this question of our Criminal Code and the amendments proposed thereto. In accordance with this purpose, it might be called the Committee on Privileges, Elections and the Criminal Law.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEWIS moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 72) respecting the saving of daylight. He said : This is the Bill which I introduced last year, and which was considered and favourably reported by a committee of this House. I wish to say that of all the replies we have received, from one end of the country to the other, by boards of trade and by councils, we have had only one objection advanced against the provision of this Bill. When the Bill was first brought up in the imperial House it was laughed at; but it was brought up again, and on the second occasion the House saw fit to appoint a committee of nine members to examine the Bill, and that committee reported absolutely in its favour It has come before the imperial House again, and the imperial House has found one or two reasons, on the eve of an election, why it would not be suitable for England. But those reasons do not apply to this country, and in England they are only thought to apply to the city of London and other large cities, in so far as it might affect theatres and the milk trade. Now, Sir, I contend that if this Bill were passed by this House it would operate one of the most beneficent revolutions in Canada, and after the people had tried it three months it would be absolutely impossible to repeal it. Millions of dollars would be saved to the people now expended on artificial light, and the benefit to public health would be incalculable. The heads of the great railways of this country, the Canadian Pacific railway and the Grand Trunk, are of the opinion that this Bill would be an incalculable benefit to them; because, if you take the records of the railways themselves, you will find that many, many thousands of dollars loss and many fatal accidents occur which would not occur if the trains were run to a larger extent by daylight, and they would be able to finish their journeys almost entirely by daylight. Now, Sir, I ask the government to appoint a committee to examine this Bill, and I think I may venture to say that there is not an bon. gentleman within the sound of my voice, who has examined and clearly understands this Bill, who is not entirely in favour of it.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MILLER moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 73) to amend the Interest Act. He said: This Bill is substantially the same as the Bill I introduced a short time ago.	.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EDWARDS moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 74) to amend the Canada Shipping Act. He said: The Bill which I am asking the permission of this House to introduce is identically the same as the
[Stage Direction]
Bill I introduced last session. It is designed to do away with the discrimination which at present exists against Ontario vessel owners, and it seeks to amend the Canada Shipping Act by introducing the word ' Ontario
Motion agreed to, and Bill read -the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. HARRIS moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 75) to amend the Criminal Code. He said: The object of this amendment is to make it a specific offence for a chauffeur, or any one else other than the owner of an automobile, to use said automobile without the consent or permission of the owner. This is a practice which is becoming altogether too common in . Canada, and during the past season many instances of this kind have occurred, causing danger to life and property. In New York state they have passed an amendment similar to this, and I think the Bill I am introducing will commend itself to all the members of this House.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. MONK.: Before the orders of the day are called, I wish to ask the government if they have any information about a report of Mr. Clark, an expert sent out to this country by Harland and Wolff to investigate the conditions of ship building. According t-o some of the newspapers, he has made a report, and it has been brought to the knowledge of the government. If so, 1 think it very desirable that the House of Commons should see it, and I would ask the government to let us have that report upon the table of the House.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: The Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Brodeur) is not in his seat to-day. I do not know if he has received such a report; so far as my information goes, no such report has been received by him. The minister will be here the day after to-morrow, and I will ask him about it.



COMBINATIONS IN RESTRAINT OF TRADE.

Mr. SPROULE.: Before the orders of the day are called, I would like to inquire of the government when they intend to introduce the Bill mentioned in the speech from the Throne rendering more effective the present legislation respecting combinations which unduly enhance prices?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot give any information to-day. The matter is under consideration.


Mr. EDWARDS.: 



QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

Mr. CAMPBELL.: Before you leave the Chair, I rise to a question of privilege. I see in an article in the ' Standard ' of December 11, that I have criticised the hon. the Minister of Agriculture for neglecting the duties of his department. I criticised him to some extent. I suggested to the House that it should look into the possibilities of this department in assisting the farmer. I criticised the hon. gentleman to this extent that I thought he had not done enough for the farmers, that he had allowed the money of Canada to be expended, for the Militia Department, for instance, that ought to have been expended for the Department of Agriculture. This article goes on to say that the Department of the Minister of Agriculture is one department that had never been criticised for jobbery or anything of that kind. Now, I will make the charge against the Minister of Agriculture that there is no department in the government where, in certain seasons, so much grafting exists as in his department,



OTTAWA NORTHERN AND WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 34) respecting the Ottawa Northern and Western Railway Company.-Mr. McGiverin.
On section 1: time for construction of railway extended.
Mr. GRAHAM.: Mr. Chairman, you will remember that at the last sitting of the committee the amendment that was made to this Bill by the Railway Committee went wrong in redrafting. The amendment made by the committee has now been drafted in accordance with the motion of the committee, and I think you will find it quite clear.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The clause as proposed reads as follows:
The Ottawa, Northern and Western Railway Company may, within two years after the passing of this Act, construct and complete the railway extensions and branches authorized to be constructed by section 1 of chapter 84 of the statutes of 1899, and by section 1 of chapter 72 of the statutes of 1900, and shall within the said two years expend thereon, including the expenditure already made, an amount equal to 15 per cent of its capital stock, and if the said railway extensions and branches are not so commenced and the said expenditure is not so made, or if the railway extensions and branches are not completed and in operation within five years after the passing of this Act, then the powers of construction conferred upon the said company by parliament shall cease and be null and void as respects so much of the railway, extensions and branches as then remain uncompleted.


Mr. TURRIFF.: That is not the amendment that passed the Railway Committee. In the amendment that passed the Railway Committee the 15 per cent was to be new expenditure.	.


George Perry Graham: No, after full discussion, it was understood that the 15 per cent was not to be new expenditure. The committee decided to put in a clause which we inserted in a couple of Bills last year, providing that they shall expend an amount equal at least to 15 per cent of the capital stock, including the expenditure already made.


John Gillanders Turriff: All I can say is that if we decided in the committee to adopt a clause that was not read, but which had been adopted upon one or two previous occasions, many of those did not understand it in that way, because the matter was discussed in the committee and it was decided that in renewing the charter they were to begin operations within two years and 15 per cent of the capital stock -of the company was to be expended during that time, not including what had already been expended. If you include what already has been expended you might as well not pass this clause at all, for the simple reason that many years ago a considerable portion of the railway was built and that would cover the 15 per cent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The clause passed the
committee just as it has been read, because I remember distinctly calling attention to the fact that they commenced the railway long ago and that the expenditure then made would cover the proposed new expenditure.	'


Mr. BARKER.: I understood it to pass hi the committee just as the minister says. It was very clear to me at the time, and I have no doubt at all that what the minister says is absolutely correct.


Mr. LENNOX.: I recollect it as the minister states it. All the same, the contention of the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) is what a good many of us contended for last year and what I have no doubt will be right. But, as a matter of fact, the other day, after it was discussed, it was determined to have it in the form in which it now is. We would be doing a good deal better if we did follow what we adopted last year on one or two occasions when we inserted a provision in the form now suggested by the hon. member for Assiniboia.


Mr. G. V. WHITE.: I agree with the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff). As he has pointed out, some 80 odd miles of this road have been already built and there only remains about 16 miles to be built; so that, everybody realizes that more
than 15 per cent has already been expended on the road.


George Perry Graham: This road consists of a long stretch that is not yet completed. There is one link to connect Pembroke, but that is only a small portion of the uncompleted part of the railway. That is the part that would appeal to the town of Pembroke, but the charter itself covers a very large mileage outside of that link. The hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Hod-gins) pressed very hard to have the committee say that this piece at least should be completed within one year. After a great deal of discussion I made the suggestion that we insert the clause as it now appears before the committee. The promoter of the Bill accepted that and it was passed by the committee.


Mr. HODGINS.: Does that apply to all the unconstructed parts of the line?


George Perry Graham: Yes.


George Frederick Hodgins: It is not possible that within two years the Canadian Pacific railway can construct the different branches that their charter calls for. I still feel, as I stated in the committee, that it would be better to confine that 15 per cent to the branch between Waltham and Pembroke. I think that would meet the wishes of the people who are concerned, and that it would also be in the best interests of the country.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 46), to incorporate the Pine Pass
Railway Company.-Mr. W. H. White.
Bill (No. 45), respecting the Phoenix Assurance Company, Limited.-Mr. Macdonald.

[Stage Direction]
. GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC BRANCH LINES.
['The budget.']
Mr. ARMSTRONG:: How many charters for branch railway lines have been granted to the Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Company; and how many of said lines are at present under construction, where located, the extent of line built on each and whether operated or not?



Prof.   J.@: -A. CURRIE:
Referring to the terms of the Rush-Bagot convention of April 29, 1817, and the agreement between Great Britain and the United States (after stating the establishment that would be by each nation in the future maintained there), that all other armed vessels on the lakes should be forthwith dismantled, and that no other vessels of war shall be there built or armed:-
1.	Have any representations been made to the imperial government to have this clause modified so that war vessels can be built on the Great Lakes and sent through the canal for armament on the Atlantic coast?
2.	If not, is it the intention of the government to make such representation?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	No representations have been made to the questions.
2.	It is not the intention of the government to make any such representations as no condition has yet arisen which would make it desirable to do so.


EXCURSION TRAIN FROM TRURO TO TATAMAGOUCHE.
Mr. STANFIELD:: 1.	Did a special excursion train leave Truro for Tatamagouche via Stellarton on September 13, 1909.?
2.	If so, what were the total receipts and
expenditures of the same, and was there a guarantee put up before the train left Truro? If so, how much, and by whom? If no guarantee was put up, on whose authority did train leave for destination ?	[DOT]
3.	Has the department collected such guarantee ?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Total receipts were $154.80, expenses, $66.35. The cost of the train was guaranteed by Mr. Pearson and the train authorized by the chairman of the board.
3.	The train earnings having exceeded the cost, the guarantee was complied with.


LANDS FOR NAVAL DEFENCE.
Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Are there any lands in Canada available for defraying cost of the naval defence? If so, what is the amount and where situated?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER.: Chapter 58 of the Revised Statutes sets apart certain lands for naval purposes. The list is contained in the statute.


LACHINE CANAL DISMISSALS.
Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	What was the reason for the dismissal of Demers, Bouchard, Tanguay, Crevier, Gariepy, Tellier, Latranche, Page, Mayrand, St. Jean, Savard, De Bellefeuille, Drapeau, Larivee, on the Laehine canal under the supervision of Denis O'Brien?
2.	What were the reasons for the reinstatement of Savard and De Bellefeuille, Drapeau and Larivee ?


Mr. GRAHAM.: 3.	What were the reasons for the dismissal of Savard and De Bellefeuille the second time?
4.	How long before the general dismissal _ of the men above mentioned was Wm. O'Brien promoted to be assistant carpenter?


George Perry Graham: ....
1.	The necessity of keeping within limits of the appropriation; about 40 other employees, besides the carpenters had to be laid off, at the same time and for the same reason.
2.	Some urgent works had to be done at Seignieurs Street Bridge; Savard and De-Bellefeuille were taken on to do it, the work only lasted a few days. Savard left of his own accord, before the work was fully completed, as he found the weather too cold. Drapeau was taken back on the 24th September last. Larivee was not laid off but kept on as spare man to work on locks, bridges and road repairs.
3.	The work given them to do was completed.
4.	In May, 1907, as handy man with carpenters, and promoted to assistant carpenter, 4 months before laying off the men.


DOUGLAS FIR FOR LACHINE CANAL.
Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	How many feet of Douglas fir lumber,
used for lock doors is now in possession of the department on Laehine canal in a proper state to be used?	1
2.	How many feet that is not proper to be used for new work or repairs is now on hand?
3.	Is it the intention of the department to order any more? If so, what will be the quantity and from whom?
4.	How many lock doors are to be made during this winter by the department?
5.	How many lock doors are to be repaired, and is all this work new and repairs to be done by the department?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	3,980 feet of lock gate timber.
2.	None.
3.	Some of the material is already ordered for the coming year, as it takes from two to three months to bring it from British Columbia. The J. T. Marchand Lumber Company are supplying this timber, under their contract accepted by the department.
4.	The carpenters that have been retained will be employed on one pair of gates, in-so far as the balance of the appropriation will permit.
5.	None will be repaired until April, 1910. All works on the Laehine canal lock gates are to be done by the repair staff of the canal.


RIDING MOUNTAIN TIMBER RESERVE.
Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Have all the squatters withing the Riding Mountain timber reserve been removed?
2.	If not, how many are still residing within the reserve? If any, is it the intention to remove all of them ?


Frank Oliver: *
1.	No.
2.	(a) One. (b) Yes.


AIRSHIPS FOR MILITARY DEFENCE.
Mr. THOS. CHISHOLM:: 1.	Has the government given any consideration to the advisability of developing the construction of aeroplanes or dirigible airships in Canada in connection with military defence ?
2.	What steps, if any, does the government propose to take for this purpose?
3.	Has the government taken into consideration the advisability of granting assistance to persons in Canada who have already made some progress along this line?
4.	Generally, what information has the government to give to the House in connection with this subject?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The matter is being closely followed, but no definite action has been decided upon.
3	and 4. The government is being largely guided by the action of the War Office, in England, in this respect. It is thought that the question has hardly reached the stage that it is desirable for the Dominion government to spend money in assisting inventors, but all reasonable facilities will be afforded to persons, possessing satisfactory credentials, in the way of giving the use of government land for the purpose of experiment.


VICTORIA IMMIGRATION BUILDING.
Mr. BARNARD:: 1.	What was the total cost of the immigration building at Victoria, British Columbia?
2.	What is the annual cost of up-keep?
3.	When was the building completed, and what number of immigrants have used the building since completion?
4.	What is the nationality of such immigrants ?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	$84,738.30, including site.
2.	It is hardly possible at this stage to give a definite answer to this question, as it depends upon the number of inmates in the building; the building, if occupied to its fullest capacity, would cost, for lighting, about $1,200 per annum and, for heating, about $250 per annum.
3.	(a) The building is virtually completed.
3.	(b) and 4. To be answered by the Departments of Interior and of Trade and Commerce.
QUEBEC SUPERIORr COURT.


Mr. NANTEL:: 1.	Before the Superior Court of the pro, vince of Quebec, sitting at Montreal, for the district of Montreal, how many cases were standing en d41ib4r6, before the judges of the said court on the 1st day of December, 1909?
2.	How many of these cases were en delibere before each of the said judges, respectively?
3.	Outside of the cases above mentioned, how many were there at the date aforesaid of pending cases inscribed, waiting their turn on the roll for the district of Montreal?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH.: The government has no information on this subject. The matter is entirely within the jurisdiction of the provincial authorities.


WINDSOR BRANCH RAILWAY.
Mr. RHODES:: 1.	Is the section of railway from Windsor
Junction to Windsor, Nova Scotia, known as the Windsor branch, under lease? If so, to whom, on what terms, and for what length of time?	,
2.	Can the lease be terminated by either party? If so, on what condition?
3i Upon what terms is the Dominion Atlantic railway granted running rights over the International railway from Windsor Junction.	*


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Yes, under agreement dated December 13, 1892, to the Windsor & Annapolis Railway Company. Limited (name changed to Dominion Atlantic Railway company. Canada 1894, chap. 69). The company to have the exclusive use of buildings, appurtenances and other conveniences (not including rolling stock and tools for repairs) in use thereon at the time of the agreement, attached to the branch between Windsor Junction and the junction of such railway with the then Windsor & Annapolis at or near Windsor. The company to employ their own station agents, booking clerks, switchmen and other servants for the management of its traffic. The government maintain the railway and works. The company to pay monthly one-third of the gross earnings from all traffic carried by the company over the branch. Term for 21 years from January 1, 1893.
2.	The agreement may be terminated by the government upon failure of the company to operate between Halifax and Annapolis.
3.	Under the agreement above mentioned the company to have use to the extent required for its traffic of the railway, appurtenances and other conveniences as lie between terminus at Halifax and Windsor Junction (both inclusive) not including machine shops or other buildings and - appliances for repairs of rolling stock, together with any extension into Halifax, to be made after date of agreement. The company to employ their own booking clerks, carting agents, and such other staff as may be necessary for the booking, collecting and handling of the company's own traffic. The company to maintain the railway and its works. The company to pay the government, monthly, one-third of the gross earnings from all traffic carried by the company over the railway.

Term 21 years, from January 1, 1893. Agreement may be terminated by the government upon failure of the company to operate between Halifax and Annapolis.


FRONTENAC COUNTY MILITARY CAMPS.
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	How many acres of land in the township of Pittsburg, county of Frontenac, are held by the government for military purposes?
2.	Where and from whom were these lands acquired, and what price was paid in each case?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 
THE DECENNIAL CENSUS.
Mr. BOYER:: Is it the intention of the government to have the decennial census taken during the present year?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER:: No. The Census and Statistics Act provides that a census shall be taken in the year one thousand nine hundred and eleven, (on a date in the month of June) to be fixed by the Governor in Council, and every tenth year thereafter.


FIELD ARTILLERY ARMAMENT.
Mr. CURRIE:: 1.	What is the reason for the re-armament of the whole field artillery, as stated to be the intention of the department in P-91 of the report of the militia council?
2.	What kind of guns are being replaced by Q.F. 18 pr. guns?
3.	In what particular are the Q.F. 18 pr. guns considered better than the guns they are replacing?


George Perry Graham: i. How many guns have been replaced, and what use does the government propose to make of the guns so replaced?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	To keep up to date by acquiring a more powerful weapon. The artillery of all field armies is now armed with quick firing guns.
2.	12-pr. B. L. guns.
3.	Increased rate of fire, increased range, increased shell power, shields to cover detachments.
4.	Thirty-two. The example of the imperial army will be followed by utilizing these guns for positions where rapidity of fire and increased power of projectile are not so essential as in a mobile field army.
The remaining four Q. F. 18-pr. guns have been distributed for instructional purposes.


COBOURG HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS.
Mr. THORNTON:: 1. What amount has been expended on Co-bourg harbour during each of the years 1907, 1908 and 1909?

2.	What contracts have been made by the government for improvements and repairs during the past three years?
3.	What amount is involved in each of these contracts?
4.	Will the contracts already let finish up all the improvements contemplated by the government ?
5.	When will the work be completed?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	In 1907-8	$ 25,590 34
1908- 9	 34,616 84
1909- 10	 54,669 80
Total	$114,876 98
2 and 3. Dredging was performed during the above-mentioned years, under contract with W. E. Phin, at a total cost of $56,024.02. A contract, in the sum of $139,000, has been entered into with the Randolph Macdonald Company, Limited, of Toronto, for the construction of two breakwaters.
4.	Yes.
5.	Construction of breakwaters to be completed on the 18th of August, 1910.


WALKERVILLE POST OFFICE.
Mr. WILCOX:: 1.	Does the government contemplate the placing of any appropriation in the supplementary estimates for the erection of a post office at Walkerville?
2.	If so, what is the amount of such contemplated appropriation ?


George Perry Graham: The matter is under consideration.


NORTHWEST LANDS.
Mr. WALLACE:: Are townships 52, 53 and 54, range 15, west of the 5th principal for sale? If so, what are the terms? If not, are they open for homesteading ?


Frank Oliver: The above townships are not for sale. They are open for homesteading, with the exception of part of township 54, which is within a timber berth.


DEPORTATION OF IMMIGRANTS.
Mr. C. A. WILSON:: How many persons have been deported from Canada to their respective countries since the passing of the Act for the deportation of undesirable immigrants and since the passing of the Act 6-7 Edward VII., chapter 19, amending section 2 of the Immigration Act, chapter 93 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906?


Frank Oliver: Rejected at port of landing	 [DOT] 4,896
Deported after admission	3,606
Total	8,502


JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
Charles Avila Wilson: How many children under 16 years of age have been brought before the criminal tribunals of Canada, and condemned, during the five years preceding the 30th day of September, 1909, in the different provinces and territories of the Dominion, but more particularly in the capital of each of the provinces and the city of Montreal?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The government has no information on this subject except in the returns for statistical purposes to the Department of Agriculture. All the returns for the year ended 30th September, 1909, have not yet been received by the department. The figures for the five years previous thereto are as follows, for indictable offences:
- .	1904.	1905.	1906.	1907.	1908.	Total in 5 Years.2	2	4	5	5	186{i 14	42	25	48	38	21916	22	16	28	96124	205	194	230	227	1,029 2,363 537 } 51389	431	383	499	661	81	75	116	148	117	1	3	26	/ 4	4	1	9	14	24	33	54	43	168Yukon	3	3	6
697	800	782	1,004	1,204	4,487
The returns as to summary convictions group the offenders without regard to age.
Prosecutions for criminal offences are in the hands of the provincial authorities.


SPEEDY TRIAL ACT.
Mr. C. A. WILSON:: 1. How many cases have been heard and judgment given in the cities of Montreal and

Quebec, respectively, under the Speedy Trial Act, each year from the 30th day of September, 1898, to the 30th day of September, 1909?
2.	How many trials by jury have been heard and judgment given by the Court of the King's Bench, criminal jurisdiction, in the cities of Montreal and Quebec, respectively, each year during the same period?


Mr. AYLESWORTH:: 1.	The government has no information on this subject.
2.	Prosecutions for criminal offences are in the hands of the provincial authorities.


MILITARY TOPOGRAPHICAL SURVEYS.
Mr. WORTHINGTON:: (a) What amount has been expended to date by the Department of Militia and Defence upon topographical work, and (b) what area has been surveyed and mapped out?


Frederick William Borden: (a)	$142,666.25.
(b)	Area completely surveyed, 17,000 square miles; area prepared for taking of topography (controlled), 4,565 square miles; area of sheets lithographed and issued 7,276 square miles.


MILITARY CLERKS.
Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Is the government aware that men are said to be enlisted to be military clerks without having to pass any examination as to their qualifications, and that such clerks are being paid upon enlistment at a rate two hundred and thirty dollars in excess of the minimum rate for subdivision B, third division, in the Civil Service of Canada, appointments to which are only to be had by competitive examination?
2.	Is the government aware that such clerks get an increase at a rate of seventy-three dollars per annum after, three months' service?
3.	If so, why are such high rates paid to military clerks for ordinary clerical work?


Frederick William Borden: I would suggest that the words * said to be in the first paragraph be struck out, as I do not suppose the hon. gentleman intends to base his question on gossip. If the hon. gentleman consents to that, the answer is as follows:	,
1. As far as the Militia Department is concerned, the individuals employed in subdivision ' B', 3rd division Civil Service, have not the military knowledge or experience to perform the work carried out by military staff clerks, who are non-commissioned officers with previous military service and special qualifications, and also older men. They have to undergo three months' probationary service before being finally approved. The men of the corps are liable to be drafted wherever their services may be required, and are also available for active service. Each man has to provide himself with uniform, &e., out of the salary he receives. The Mr. C. A. WILSON.
military staff clerk has not the opportunity of reaching a higher grade than that of sergeant-major, and after twenty years' service would not receive as high a salary as the maximum of 3rd division subdivision ' A ' Civil Service.
2.	Yes. This is not an increase for three months' service, but is the rate laid down after probationary service has been completed and no further increase can be paid until after three years' service.
3.	It is considered ^hat the class of man required could not be obtained for a lower salary, and men frequently leave because they are able to better themselves in civil life.


SUCCESSOR TO THE LATE SENATOR FERGUSON, P.E.I.
Mr. FRASER:: Is it the intention of the government to fill the vacancy in the Senate caused by the death of the late Senator Ferguson, Prince Edward Island, before the end of the present session ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I hope so.


CANCELLATION OF LAND GRANT TO PEACE RIVER COLONIZATION AND LAND DEVELOPMENT COMPANY.
Mr. MONK:: 1.	Has the grant of lands in the Northwest by the Crown to the Peace River Colonization and Land Development Company, under order in council of the 27th, July, 1900, as amended by order in council of the 8th July, 1904, been cancelled? If so, when?
2.	What were the reasons for said cancellation?
3.	Has the said grant of said lands, or any part of them, been renewed in favour of any other grantees?
4.	If a new grant of said lands in whole or in part has been made, in favour of whom, at what date, and on what conditions has said new grant been made?


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Yes. by order in council of the 3rd September, 1909.
2.	Conditions of the grant were not complied with, as the company did not locate the required number of settlers on the lands reserved within the prescribed time.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


WOOL AND YARNS-EXPORTS AND IMPORTS.
Mr. SEXSMITH:: 1.	What was the quantity of worsted and woollen yarns imported into Canada during each year from 1900 to 1909, inclusive, the number of pounds and the value for each
year ?
2.	What quantity and value of wool was imported into Canada each year from 1900 to 1909, inclusive?

3.	What quantity and value of wool was exported from Canada during each year from 1900 to 1909, inclusive?
4.	What is the total value and quantity of wool produced in Canada during each year from 1900 to 1909, inclusive?


Mr. PATERSON:: 1. The quantity and value of woollen and worsted yarns imported into Canada during the fiscal years from 1900 to 1909, inclusive, was as follows:
Fiscal Years.	Yarns, woollen or worsted, costing 30 cts. per lb. or over, imported by manufacturers of woollen goods.	Woollen and worsted yarns, n.o.p.	Yarns, woollen or worsted, imported by manufacturers of braids, cords, tassels, &c., and mohair yarn.	Lbs.	$	Lbs.	$	Lbs.	$1900	546,536	257,654	298,971	121,289	63,583	28,3681901	503,608	240,424	318,817	138,838	102,138	30,6021902	650,767	283,538	446,969	166,074	238,540	26,2921903	948,263	435,484	1,006,930	286,142	45,641	19,0041904	1,155,020	504,708	500,544	187,731	78,218	35,6131905	1.421,015	639,198	333,287	172,590	66,151	29,3591906	1,554,524	753,468	285,419	160,102	54,898	26,891l'J07 (9 mos.) 	1,134,408	579,271	170,969	109,549	42,929	20,9871908	2,048,857	1,097,648	336,624	183,335	53,949	26,5161909	1,695,556	878,860	324,507	179,188	36,619	14,841
2. The quantity and value of wool imported into Canada during the fiscal years from 1900 to 1909, inclusive, was as follows: Wool, not further prepared than washed.
	Lbs.	$
1900	. 8,054,669	1,574,8341901	. 8,574,605	1,292,8951902	. 10,360,738	1,374,0541903	. 7,994,704	1,239,9981904	[DOT] 7,339,369	1,319,7351905	. 7,617,211	1,553,4311900	. 6,311,837	1,489,2681907	. 3,928,791	853,1521908	[DOT] 6,129,216	1,407,2741909	[DOT] 5,683,948	1,042,6623. The quantity	and value	of wool exported from Canada during the fiscal years	from 1900 to 1909,	inclusive, was as follows:	Lbs.	$1900	420,7761901	197,5811902	302,2451903.	382,9351904	315,2071905	425,9391906	368,6791907	346,2301908	473,3061909	210,614
MILITIA-PAY AND ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS, &c.


Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Are the pay and allowance regulations of the militia so construed as to admit of officers entitled to engineer pay, for the days they are employed on the duties of their corps, drawing the same for Sundays and holidays when they are not so employed?
2.	Is engineer pay issued to non-commissioned officers and men for Sundays under the same conditions as issued to officers?
3.	Is the issue of artillery nay subject to the same limitations as to employment, leave,
and absence on account of illness, as those of engineer pay and corps pay? If so. under what article of the pay regulations? If not, why nof?
4. Is cerps pay issued to officers of the permanent army service corps and Canadian ordnance corps for Sundays and holidays when not employed on the duties of their corps, and is it issued to non-commissioned officers and men for such days under the same conditions as to officers? If not, why not?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	Engineer officers are considered to be employed on Sundays and holidays and they are, therefore, permitted to draw engineer pay continuously, except when absent on leave or sickness in excess of thirty days in the year.
2.	No.
3.	No. Because the regulations for issue of artillery pay are different to those prescribed for engineer and corps pay. The regulations governing all such rates of pay being made, as far as possible, to conform to the regulations in force in the British army.
4.	Corps pay to officers of Canadian permanent army service corps and Canadian ordnance corps is issued under the same regulations as engineer pay. See reply to 1.
The conditions, as regards issue of corps pay to non-commissioned officers and men of these corps, are different to those governing issue to officers, as it is considered desirable, as far as possible, to conform to the regulations in force in the British army.


EXPENDITURES FOR PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION OF CONTAGIOUS DISEASES.
Mr. MILLER:: 1. What amount of money has been expended by the government in each of the



past five years for the prevention and suppression of contagious diseases in horses, cattle, sheep and swine, and what has been the expenditure for each of said classes of animals?
2. What amount of money has the government expended in each of the same years for the prevention and suppression of contagious and other diseases of human beings, including as well as other expenditure the money spent for quarantine, and the annual grant to the Canadian Anti-Tuberculosis Association?


Mr. FISHER:: 1.	The total expenditure is as follows:
1904-	5	$190,253	271905-	6	
421,993	501906-	7	
276,667	991907-	8	
320,538	101908-	9	
325,385	29

The expenditure consists largely of the salaries and travelling expenses of the inspectors who deal with all classes of animals, and no apportionment among the different classes is made. The compensation, however, for animals slaughtered under ' The Animal Contagious Diseases Act ' is as follows:
-	Horses.	Cattle.	Hojfs.	Total.1904-	5.. 1905-	6 . 1906-	7.. 1907-	8.. 1908-	9.. Totals	$ cts. 53,009 39 265,114 15 119,857 24 111,139 58 77,405 14	$ cts. 1,568 00 1,632 00	$ cts. 7,032 73 6,531 11 1,566 67 2,624 00 8,307 44	$ cts. 61,610 12 273,277 26 121,423 91 113,763 58 85,712 58
626,525 50	3,200 00	26,061 95	655,787 45
There has been no compensation for cattle since the fiscal year 1906-7, the department having demonstrated that the Pictou cattle disease, the only disease affecting cattle for which compensation is given, is not a contagious disease.
2. 1904-5	$114,473	651905-	6	
111,754	761906-	7	
86,988	641907-	8	
154,841	521908-	9	
125,935	54

MAIL CONTRACT WITH CAPT. NOONAN. Mr. EDWARDS:
1.	Has Captain Noonan, of Kingston, a contract for carrying the mail?
2.	If so, what post offices are served under his contract, and what pay does he receive for such service?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Manotick, Kars, Burritt's Rapids, Mer-rickville, Smith's Falls, Rideau Ferry, Kilmarnock, Portland, Westport, Newboro',


Mr. MILLER.: Chaffey's Locks, Jones' Falls, Seely's Bay, Brewer's Mills, Washburn, Kingston Mills. $600 per season.


MAIL CONTRACT BETWEEN RIVER HEBERT AND MINUDIE N.S.
Mr. RHODES:: 1.	Who has the contract for carrying the mail between River Hebert and Minudie, Nova Scotia, and was the contract let by tender ? If so, what are the names of the several persons who tendered, the amount of each tender, and what is the term of the contract?
2.	Who held the previous contract, what was its time of duration, and what was the contract price ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	William Baird. The contract was let by tender. The contract is for four years from 1st October, 1909.
List of Tenders.
William Baird	$290 00 per annum.
L. E. Brien	 349 00 "	"


Ohas.   M@: 375 00 "	"
2.	Loring E. Brien from 1st November, 1901, to 30th September, 1905, and renewed from 1st October, 1905, for a further period of four years to 30th September, 1909. The contract price was $249 per annum.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
Copy of the correspondence exchanged since the 1st of January, 1908, between the medical examiners of immigrants and the Superintendent of Immigration, respecting the inspection of immigrants.-Mr. Paquet.
Copy of all instructions to J. O. Lewis, Indian agent at Selkirk, regarding the delivery of patents to Indians entitled to same, in connection with the surrender of St. Peter's reserve.-Mr. Bradbury.
Return showing a list of the free mail delivery routes which have been established in Canada, including the port of departure and the place of arrival, the length of each, the number of houses on each route, and the number of boxes on each route.-Mr. Armstrong.
Copy of all correspondence had between the Post Office and Public Works Departments, together with all reports and other documents relating to the necessity of providing adequate post office accommodations in the city of Lethbridge.-Mr. Magrath.

Mr. GEO. H. PERLEY (Argenteuil) moved:: That in view of the encouraging results which have come from the money already spent in disseminating information regarding tuberculosis and of the interest which the people of Canada are taking in this question, and also in view of the great saving in life which has been brought about in other countries by practical work in this connection, this House is of the opinion that parliament should now take more active steps to further lessen the great suffering and mortality caused by this disease.

He said: My reason for bringing up this question separately from that of general public health, the subject of a resolution introduced in the House last session, is that the disease to which my resolution refers causes more deaths in this Dominion than all of the directly contagious diseases, and also that it is one which it is peculiarly proper that this government and parliament should deal with, inasmuch as it is widespread throughout all the provinces of the Dominion and can only be properly dealt with the Dominion authority. I would therefore ask the kind consideration of all members of this House to this question, and particularly of those who are doctors in medicine, for as a layman I feel considerable difficulty in speaking on this subject. My reason for speaking is that I feel that this is one of the great questions of our day and generation and one in which we can accomplish a great deal of good.
I do not propose to enter into details or any lengthy explanation concerning the nature of this disease. It is too well known amongst us, particularly in its commoner form of consumption of the lungs. We all know that some years ago it was supposed to be hereditary, and also to be practically incurable. We now know that it is not in-h.erited; we also know that many cases, in fact I may say the greater proportion of cases, can be cured if taken at the proper time. We also know that the children of consumptives have not necessarily to have this disease, since it is not inherited, but it may be contracted afterwards. This disease is caused by a living germ, one that is directly contagious and easily communicated. At the same time, fortunately for us, the disease may be prevented by destroying the sputum of the patient. But the gieat danger at present is from the ignorance of the patient who is at home or on the streets. To-day the great object is to get at the source of the contagion. To slimy that it is easy to prevent this contagion, we have only to call attention to the fact that it is now stated that the place in which any one is least likely to contract consumption is in a properly organized sanatorium. This disease of tuberculosis is curable to a large extent if taken in time, and there have been many efforts made in this direction of late years. In some countries they have established sanatoria, but in Canada this is properly a subject for the provincial governments to take up. In other countries they use to a large extent the open air treatment in inexpensive shacks, where the cost is not very large, and where very good results have been obtained. We are making progress along those lines in many directions, and we are learning by experience. But although much has been done to relieve suffering and to prevent the spread of this dread destroyer of humanity, and although 44*
I am glad to see that a large number of people are taking an interest in this question, at the same time the fight is really only just begun. Dr. Woods Hutchinson,) who is a well known writer on bacteriology, has made the following declaration before the Tuberculosis Exhibition held in New York last fall:
Tuberculosis can be stamped out in New York city within ten years. Ten thousand lives a year can be saved from its ravages. A winning fight can be started within a year.
This is the opinion of an expert, and if this can be done in New York city, how much more easily it can be done in this Canada of ours, where fortunately at the present time we have no such large cities as New' York.'Conditions here are such that it is very much easier for us to fight the disease than it is in an overgrown city. During the last few years, more and more interest has been taken in the question of fighting this dread disease of tuberculosis, and the great work has been carried on in almost every country in the world. In 1906 an international congress was held at the Hague at which sixteen countries were represented. Last year an international congress was held at Washington in the United States, at which was represented almost every country in the world. An official report of that congress has been made, but it covers many volumes, and I do not propose to quote from it here. There is, however, a magazine published in New York called the ' Charities,5 and on its front page it is called a ' Weekly journal of philanthrophy- and social advance.' I would _ like to quote extracts from that magazine to show the nature of the work that was done in Washington last fall, and the good results that have flowed from it. On page 185 of this magazine we read:
From the opening felicitations of Argentina and Austria Monday morning, to the reluctant farewells of Switzerland and Uruguay on Saturday the Tuberculosis Congress showed an intensity and diversity of interest that it would have been difficult to anticipate.
Official delegations from thirty-three nations: a registration of over six thousand members: an attendance sufficient to throng the corridors of the Congress building, pack the section meetings, and tax the hotels of Washington: an exhibit by 438 contributors; and a million and a half sheets of abstracts of papers, printed in Spanish, German, French and English- are a few suggestive statistical items.
On page 204:
Of much more practical and popular interest, for instance, was the exhibit of the work being done in Ireland, by the Women's National Health Association, under the direction of the Countess of Aberdeen. Here was shown how, in the incredibly short period of fourteen months, a whole nation had been aroused to the importance of the problem of eradicating tuberculosis, and by means of a campaign of popular education, on the ' Ameri-

can ' plan, tremendous strides were being made against the disease.
The keynote of all the American exhibits was ' prevention ' rather than statistics or cure. They emphasized the fact that the relief from this plague must come through social and economic progress, as much as through medical agencies. The improvement of living conditions and the popular dissemination of knowledge regarding sanitary and other preventive measures are agencies which strike at the source of the disease, and these are the factors which are emphasized all through the American exhibits. Travelling tuberculosis exhibitions, popular illustrated lectures, and the wide distribution of leaflets of information are effecting a revolution in the popular mind regarding tuberculosis.
You will notice that this' extract states again that the key note was prevention. That is what we are'advocating here; we are asking this government to give a sufficient sum each year to teach the people how to prevent this dread disease. ^Again we read in this magazine, on page 172:
In the moving of the exhibit from Washington to New York, figures of impressive size are once more given out. The bulk of the exhibit is measured in carloads, in more than a thousand of packing cases, in hundreds of exhibitors from four continents, and in tons of freight. The tuberculosis exhibit of 1908 equals in bulk the circus of a generation ago, when circuses first moved from town to town by railroad.
Governor Hughes and Mayor McClellan took part in "the programme of the opening night and there will be other special programmes for physicians, for the state, for the city and for neighbouring cities in New York and Long Island and New Jersey. The first folder announcing the exhibit will reach 25,000 homes and others following it will, it is planned, penetrate into every tenement in the city. Where thousands saw the exhibit in Washington hundreds of thousands will view it in New York.
So we say it is only reasonable that this government should develop a system of somewhat the same kind, in order to teach the people by travelling exhibits the danger of this disease and the way of combatting it. Now, to show the practical success that has attended this work, and the effect it is having in reducing the number of deaths, and in inspiring us with a hope that we may be able in future to extinguish the disease altogether, I wish to give a few figures. In England, Dr. William Parker, of the Westmoreland Consumptive Sanatorium, gives the following figures of actual results:
Deaths per Ten Thousand.
1851-55	 28 05
1861-65	 25-27
1871-75	 22-.18
1881-85	 18-30
1891-95	 14 62
1896-1900	 13-23


George Halsey Perley: You will notice how the percentage reduces regularly in each term of five years, and it is estimated that if this decrease continues the disease will have entirely, disappeared by 1940. I ask why we cannot expect to accomplish such a result in this country when we consider that such a result has been obtained in other diseases- in the matter of leprosy, which was taken up by the Dominion government many years ago. In Denmark the fight against this disease was begun in 1895. According to Dr. H. T. Bulstrode the mortality rate in Copenhagen was 34-2 per ten thousand in 1870-4, and it fell to 16-6 in 1899-1901. It was less than one-half in 1901 what it was in 1874. In other towns of Denmark it fell from 25-2 per ten thousand to 13-1 per ten thousand. They have made a special effort in Germany to fight this disease and they have a great many ways and methods of doing it. I do not propose to weary the House with many figures concerning it, but I simply wish to gut on record the statement of Dr. Moeller regarding the sanatorium at Belzig that he is able to report from 12 to 15 per cent of absolute cures; 30 to 35 per cent of marked improvements, and 35 to 40 per cent of improvements; showing that in that sanatorium nearly 80 per cent have obtained considerable benefit. With regard to the general mortality in Prussia from tuberculosis, we find that in 1876 of every ten thousand persons there 30-95 per cent died of tuberculosis, in 1886	30-14, in 1896,	22 07
and in 1901, 19-54 per ten thousand. So much benefit has been obtained from this treatment that the German insurance societies have, in many cases, taken the matter up and have spent their own good money as they thought it would pay them to do so. According to the reports I find that from 1893 to 1901 they treated 5,814 persons of whom 1,228 died, 3,955 are now earning their own living and 630 could not afterwards bo_ traced. I find that Dr. Saar reported to the Washington congress that in the German army tuberculosis has been diminished by 42 per cent during the last 20 years simply by careful medical inspection and systematic precautions. Last year Dr. Phillip, an eminent authority on this subject, was here from Edinburgh and he stated that the measures taken in Edinburgh to prevent this disease had resulted in a reduction of 42 per cent in deaths in the ten years from 1897 to 1906. We know that right here in Ottawa very good work is being done. We have in this city a local association in which there are many men and women who have given a good deal of their time and money to assist in fighting this disease. What is the result? This association began in the year 1904 and during the last six years the deaths from tuberculosis have been as follows:

In other words they have fallen, in the last six years from 142 to 107. In the same period the city has kept growing, as.we all know. It is estimated now that it has a population of about 80,000, whereas, six years ago there were only 60,000. Taking the percentages of deaths we find that the ratio has fallen from 23-67 for every ten thousand people to 13-37. In other "words the deaths in this city are proportionately much less than they were six years ago. The number of cases taken care of outside the homes of the patients by this association in 1905 was 17; 1906, 41; 1907, 74; and 1908, 89. I give these figures out of fair play to the society in Ottawa. It has done much good work and one of the reasons why I am pleading with this government to increase its grant to the Canadian association is because the effect of the local work has been so good. This local association in Ottawa has arranged for an excellent system of visits by nurses, and it has also "made arrangements for giving free the advice and services of the medical profession at two different places in this city. At the present time it is building a large hospital for advanced cases of tuberculosis out near the experimental farm. This building is nearly finished and we expect to have it open in about a month. I think that the members of the local association would be very glad if members of parliament would take enough interest in it to go out, either by the street car or walking, some* afternoon and see the building which has been put up on the outskirts of the city for the care of advanced cases-of those unfortunate people who have hitherto had no place to go and who have been a source of contagion to their families and neighbours. I have here an extract from a report of Dr. Law the medical health officer for Ottawa for the year ending 31st October, 1908 He says:


EXTRACTS FROM THE REPORT OF DR LAW, MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH, OTTAWA, FOR THE YEAR ENDING OCTOBER 31, 1908.
[Stage Direction]
Six years ago scarlet fever held second place in the list of infectious diseases mortal-it_y with 50 deaths. This year it is in last place with but 2 deaths. (Population 6 years ago about 60,000 against 80,000 now).
Tuberculosis still maintains its proud supremacy as a life destroyer, apart from the sorrow and suffering it entails on the bereaved ones, many of whom are brought from comfort to poverty through the loss oi the household's provider after a long exhausting and expensive illness.
Contrasting the mortalities from these two
diseases and the respective measures for controlling them I do not think it will be denied that, if as efficient measures were provided for the fight against tuberculosis as are provided for scarlet fever and the latter disease were accorded the inadequate provisions meted out for tuberculosis, in 6 years the relative position of these two diseases in the mortality list would be reversed.
I read this as an expression of opinion from the health officer of the city of Ottawa who is an expert on this subject and who states that he has no doubt that tuberculosis could be eradicated from our midst as easily as scarlet! fever if the proper precautions were taken. Five years ago I had the honour of bringing this question before this House, and at that time a unanimous resolution was passed regarding it. At the same time it was brought up in the Senate and practically the same resolution was unanimously passed there. Up to that time the Dominion government had given $2,000 per annum to the Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis. Some two years ago, after we had brought the matter to the attention of the government in several ways, the annual grant was raised to $5,000 per annum. This money was placed in the hands of the Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis and was used by that association for the purpose of educating the people, disseminating information regarding this disease, its prevention and cure, and trying to stir up municipalities and provinces to take their share in this great work.
It has sometimes been said to me that we ought to raise money by private subscription to assist the Canadian association; in fact an important member of this government spoke to me privately about this some time ago. I am anxious to press upon the government that it would be exceedingly unwise for us to attempt to raise funds by private subscription to support the Canadian association. The Canadian association is entirely for the purpose of disseminating information by pamphlets and lectures and in any other way that it can in order to teach the people how they can protect themselves from this disease and how it can be cured. Any one who is willing to give money to help on this fight will give it to his local association. The Canadian association stirs up the people to put up a fight against this enemy. That necessitates the building of sanatoria or the establishment of local associations, a system of nurses, &c., in the different cities, all of which costs a great deal of money, and if the Canadian association arouses the people to the necessity of these steps it is accomplishing what it is established for. I claim that this government ought in all reason to make a grant sufficient to enable the Canadian association to do what is necessary to teach the people how to protect themselves or else
[Stage Direction]
that this government should take hold of the question under the director of public health as a part of the work of that department of government. A good deal has been accomplished by this Canadian association which has now been in existence for several years. The hon. member for South Grey (Mr. Miller), who was last year president of this association, will be able to tell you all about it. As far as I am able to judge, the people are waking up regarding this important question, they are organizing locally in many places in Canada and they are being taught to work to help themselves in preventing this disease and in curing it when it has been contracted. The hospital which is being erected in Ottawa is costing between $45,000 and $50,000. This money has been raised entirely by private subscription. The City of Ottawa has undertaken to maintain this hospital but contributes nothing towards the building or its equipment. A small grant is given by the . Ontario government to assist in building such a hospital and of the balance I am proud to say that the ladies of Ottawa have raised quite a sum by a fair which they held in the drill hall a couple of years ago to which all classes of the community contributed and in which the household of the Governor General especially took an interest. The balance of the money which has been contributed by citizens of Ottawa I have had the pleasure and privilege of collecting. Already there is talk in Ottawa of attempting to establish a sanatorium for incipient cases. That will have to be in the country somewhere, but we all hope we will be able to arrange for it after the hospital for the advanced cases is firmly established.
I wish to press on the government that this Canadian association is purely for the purpose of disseminating information by lectures and pamphlets, and also to urge on the provincial governments and municipalities local action in this matter. The association now has a medical lecturer and unless the federal grant is increased we will not be able to keep up the work of sending out pamphlets and also to keep this lecturer on the road all the time as he ought to be. I ask that this government either take the matter in hand themselves or else give a sufficient grant to the Canadian association to enable it, with the greatest economy, to do the necessary work in this direction.
I have laid before you some of the results of this work, I have shown you how the mortality has decreased where proper precautions have been taken and how the work of the Canadian association here has led to the establishment of our hospital in Ottawa
My hon. friend from South Grey (Mr. Miller) will tell you later on of other things Mr. PERLEY.
that have been done through the instrumentality of the Canadian association. I ask what possible objection there can be to this government granting sufficient money each year to this association to carry on this work properly. I can see no objection whatever. Five years ago when this matter [DOT] was brought up, a question was raised as to the propriety of this parliament doing anything, under the British North America Act. Even if that were a valid objection it would remind one of the action of a foolish man who was so careful of the rights of his neighbours that when his house was on fire he refused to jump out of his window because by doing so he would be committing a technical trespass on his neighbour's property. The argument that this would be an encroachment on the British North America Act would be as unreasonable as tha.t. But Sir, fortunately there is nothing in the British North America Act to prevent this parliament from taking action. It is true that under the British North America Act the sanatoria and hospitals are placed under the jurisdiction of the provinces. But public health as such is not mentioned in the British North America Act; in other words, it is_ under the Dominion and the provinces jointly. I need not go into this question in detail. It was discussed at a considerable length five years ago, when it was shown that in the early years of the Dominion there was on the statute-book a Public Health Act, under which action could be taken by the Dominion government to any extent that it saw fit. That Act was eventually repealed, but not because it was regarded as beyond our jurisdiction. The government has .already acknowledged that it has a perfect right to give money for this purpose, by granting $5,000 per annum. If the government can grant $5,000 it can grant $10,000 or $20,000 or whatever sum may be required to assist the fight against this dread disease. The hon. Minister of Agriculture this afternoon gave the amounts expended in protecting the human race from disease as against the amounts expended for protecting cattle and other animals. Where is the authority for this government expending such large sums of money in protecting cattle from disease? I fail to find it mentioned in the British North America Act. I did not catch the figures given by the minister this afternoon; but the expenditure in the four years from 1904 to 1907 inclusive in protecting the health of animals was stated last year, in answer to a question of mine, to have been $1,209,000; and this year the hon. minister of Agriculture has on the Order Paper a Bill entitled An Act to Prevent the Introduction or Spreading of Insects, Pests and Diseases Destructive to Vegetation, under which he is authorized 'to make regulations for the granting of

compensation for any crop, tree, bush or other vegetation or containers thereof so destroyed'. If this government can take such good care of the vegetable crops of this country, it seems to me that it ought to be able to grant assistance to protect human life from disease.
The humane considerations ought to be quite sufficient to justify action in this matter, and I apologize for suggesting the financial loss to the country resulting from tuberculosis. There are differences of opinion as to the amount of the loss from the death of each person. On this point Dr. Irving Fischer of Yale tells us:
The cost to the United States of every consumptive who dies is $8,000. That does not mean his sickness only and his funeral expenses. It includes the money he would have earned with the average ' expectation of life ' in the working years of which he is deprived, and adds to that the support of his family, which usually must be undertaken by some one else. Even conservative estimates rate the deaths from tuberculosis in 1906 at 138,000. A simple calculation, and we find that the United States lost in actual money used up, plus working nower destroyed, $1,100,000,000 during that year.
I do not place the actual loss as high as that, yet I must acknowledge that Dr. Irving Fischer knows a great deal more about it than I do. It is estimated that in Canada from 8,000 to 10,000 die annually from this disease. I have statistics only from the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, which contains about 4,000,000 people, for the year 1907. These show that the total deaths in that year were : in Ontario, 33,502; in Quebec, 29,007; total, 62,509. Of these the deaths from tuberculosis were: in Ontario, 2,530; in Quebec, 2,884; a total of 5,414 in the two provinces. According to these figures, I estimate that in the Dominion of Canada from 8,000 to 10,000 people die of tuberculosis every year, and of these all the experts are agreed that we ought to be able to save fully half. To say nothing of the misery and suffering and trouble caused by this fell disease, think of the immense money loss which this Dominion suffers thereby. If Canada loses from 8,000 to 10,000 people annually from this disease, there must be in the country from 40,000 to 50,000 people suffering from it. Estimating each'life as worth $1,000, a most moderate estimate, and the loss resulting from the inactivity of the patient during the years he is ill at $1,000 moTe, that makes $2,000 for each life lost from this disease. On this basis this country loses from $16,000,000 to $20,000,000 annually from these deaths. Does this not furnish a strong reason, on the money basis alone, why this government should provide any reasonable amount required for the purpose of teaching the people how to protect themselves from this great annual loss? Why, Sir, ordinary common
sense should teach us that such prodigious waste ought to be stopped if at all possible, and I am glad to be able to say that in this case we know that it is possible.
This government spends large sums of money in bringing immigrants into this country. This year we have $915,000 in the estimates for this purpose, and we know that some of this money is wasted. I am not casting any reflection upon the immigrants when I say, what every one knows, that our own people in Canada are of more value to us than trie newcomers; and would it not pay us better to spend some money in saving our own people? The expenditure on immigration is supposed to be partly as an advertisement, to show what a fine country we have. I ask, would anv advertisement be so good for Canada as to show not only that we have a climate in which we can cope successfully against this fell disease, but that we have a people and a government wise enough to take advantage of their opportunities and to put up a fight against it?
When this question was under discussion five years ago, the hon. Minister of Agriculture remarked that no one had suggested how the government could spend money on this object without trespassing on the rights of the provinces. This is a simple question. The provinces are building sanatoria and hospitals, and this parliament has not only the right but the duty to spend money in fighting this disease in any other way. For instance, this government could promote the dissemination of information by means of pamphlets or lectures. We have already had one lecturer at work a part of the time, but there is room in this broad Dominioin for a man to be at work every day in the year, promoting the formation of local associations to build hospitals and fight this disease in the various cities and towns.
It has been suggested in some quarters that an official physician should be appointed by the Dominion government, to take cognizance of this disease, to keep statistics concerning it, and if considered wise, later to arrange a system of inspection and registration. Of course, this appointment would come under the authority of the Dominion if they saw fit to make it. Then, there is one way in which we could help a great deal in fighting this disease, in a practical every-day way, and that is in connection with railways and steamboats. No steps have been taken, so far as I know, by any authority to try to keep down the contagion in these public conveyances. That is a matter that would naturally come directly under the authority of this government. Then, we have this magazine from which I have read. I wonder if there is any reason why this government should not have such a publi-
[Stage Direction]
cation which could be distributed throughout this Dominion, giving facts and figures with regard to this disease, as well as other matters of a kindred nature in order to teach people something which they ought to know for their own protection. Then a public exhibition such as that concerning which I read as having been held in New York and which was afterwards used as a travelling exhibit in many parts of the United States, is a homely, every-day way of teaching the people how to prevent this disease and how to cure it. That is something that would certainly come absolutely within the authority of the Dominion government, something with which the provinces would have nothing to do. The provinces have plenty to do, and so have the municipalities, but this general work ought to be done by the Dominion government.
I merely mention these things to show that there are many ways in which the hon. Minister of Agriculture can spend money in this good work without even technically violating the British North America Act. I am not wedded to any particular plan or method, but I feel strongly that this government should take prompt and serious action, in whatever direction it thinks best, to help the people to fight this grim enemy. In the session of 1905, a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons brought in a report on this matter indicating what further steps should be taken to suppress tuberculosis in this country. The committee had held several meetings, and on July 13, 1905, I had the honour to present its report in this House. That report was discussed here, and adopted, except that, at the suggestion of the government section 7 was struck out, which section, if I remember well, provided for a grant of money. In this report, as passed, section 8 reads as follows:
Your committee further suggests that unless the Dominion government feels prepared to take hold of the matter itself, a conference should be held at as early a date as possible between the federal and provincial authorities for the purpose of determining the best action which should be taken in the premises.
That report was passed unanimously. But no conference has been held. And, without finding fault too severely with the government for not carrying out this report,
I submit that it would have been wiser had this conference been called. What we want is to get everybody working on this problem. If we have the conference-and I would urge the government to call one- it could not but be productive of good.
I do not wish to weary the House with this matter. I do not think there is a greater or more important question before the country to-day, and I believe that if Mr. PEBLEY.
the people thoroughly understood it this parliament would be forced to spend every cent that was required to put up a good hard fight against this disease. I hope that the discussion of this resolution will help the public to understand this question. I trust that our friends of the press will give it space in their papers, not on my account, but on account of the vitally important interests involved. This is not, in any sense, a local question.. This disease is spread all over the Dominion, and people suffering from it move from one section to another. The number of deaths caused by it is so great that the need of fighting it is imperative. And we must get the help, not only of those individuals who are willing to help, not only of the municipalities, but also the great .strength of this Dominion government must be brought to assist if the fight is going to be a success. We know that our climate is as favourable to the cure of this disease as any other, if the disease is taken in time. And I am glad to say that, through the information that has been disseminated throughout the country during the last few years, the people are beginning to understand the question, they are waking up to the difficulties involved, and also they are learning to feel that it is perfectly possible to destroy this disease altogether if we make a united effort. At this time the Dominion government has a large revenue. It is making great expenditures, some of which are criticised by those of us who sit on this side of the House. It seems to me that here is a case in which the government can make a grant which no one will criticise, but with which every one will be satisfied, and which will accomplish much good for the people of the whole Dominion. I do not suggest in any way that this government should take in hand the building of sanatoria or hospitals of any kind, but I do feel that they should spend sufficient money to teach the people of tliis country 1'ow to prevent and cure this disease. I do not think that any practical or theoretical objection wmuld be raised to the spending of this money to protect ourselves and our children. And I say in conclusion that this parliament represents the common sense and wisdom of this Canada of ours, and if we do not put up a proper fight against this scourge of our day and generation, we shall be held responsible before the world of public opinion for neglect of a plain duty.
Mr. H. S. BELAND (Beauce) (Translation).: Mr. Speaker, the question of the prevention and cure of tuberculosis has been considered in this House on several previous occasions. The hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) alone has already had on the order paper two resolutions in

reference to this matter. My hon. friend from Hants (Mr. Black) also took the matter up, though in another form, two years ago. However, to my mind, a question such as this cannot be often and too carefully considered, and too great pressure cannot be brought to bear on the government in this connection.
Already, on a previous occasion, I have clearly expressed my views, both as a physician a.nd as a representative of the people, on this very live question. There is too much force and eloquence in the grim and cold facts or statistics submitted by the hon. member to make it necessary that I should dilate at any length on the sufferings brought about by the scourge of tuberculosis. After what has been so clearly and so neatly stated by the mover of the resolution, it only remains for me to approve of the conclusion laid down in regard to the grant in favour of the anti-tuberculosis association.
Indeed it would be regrettable were Canada, a leader in so many branches of industrial and commercial activity, to sadly lag behind when confronted with a social and economical problem of such importance. All civilized countries have realized what enormous losses result from the spread of tuberculosis, and have applied preventive and curative measures of the greatest efficiency.
The Dominion government has made a good beginning, but it behoves all members of this House who like myself belong to the medical profession to make official quarters ring with the necessity, in the country's interest, of preventing the spread of tuberculosis, and particularly of tuberculosis of the lungs.
I am of opinion, as previously stated, that a certain amount should be deducted from the items appropriated directly or indirectly towards forwarding immigration, and an equal amount spent towards the prevention and cure of tuberculous diseases. To my mind, more value should be attached from our country's standpoint, to saving the life of one Canadian snatched from the grip of tuberculosis, than to securing an immigrant from foreign shores, whatever his worth.
In short, Mr. Speaker, we have before us a question of the greatest import both from the economical and humanitarian standpoint; and I trust that the government, desirous of forwarding the best interests of the country, will find their way to granting a still larger appropriation to the men who have assumed the task of putting a stop, in this country, to what is sometimes termed the wdiite plague.


Mr. J. B. BLACK (Hants).: This is a subject that ought to give, and I have no doubt does give, every member of this House both interest and pleasure. It is a ques-1
tion for humanity, one of those subjects in which one side of the House will not disagree with the other, but in which we all unite for humanity's sake. And the pleasantest part is that such an interest and such an. initiative is being shown by the laymen. It has not been left to the medical profession alone to do this work, but the laymen, in many instances, have outstripped the medical profession in their earnest work for the protection of the lives .of our people against this sad destroyer. I would express my appreciation and gratitude for what this government has done year by year in fighting this disease. I regard this matter in no spirit of fault-finding, complaining or scolding, but rather in a spirit of gratitude for what has been done; and I believe we shall be, in the future, under a still greater debt of gratitude to the government, for I am sure they will respond to the request of the Anti-tuberculosis Association for some greater grant than has been given in the past.
I think it is right, in asking for a greater grant than we have had in the past, to review what has been done with the grants that have been given. Have we been doing good work? Have we been expending this money as it should have been expended? Let us see what has been done. For one thing, literature, in plain language that the unlearned might understand and that all might read, has been scattered broadcast all over Canada. This has been a great means of teaching the people how to protect themselves against this disease. Over and above that, we have a lecturer who goes all over Canada lecturing to the people on this subject. I think this is one of the most interesting and profitable means of combatting this dread disease. At present the travelling lecturer of the association is a medical gentleman of culture, an expert in discussing the prevention of tuberculosis, a man who has the ability to stand on the platform and interest the general public in the question. I believe that up to the present time he has gone over many portions of Canada. Speaking for my own province of what the lecturer has done, I may say that I had the great pleasure of arranging for him a series of meetings from Windsor to Yarmouth, where there were crowded houses at every meeting, where not only the educated, the intelligent and the cultured assembled to listen, but where the common people heard him gladly; and I think that was the most promising part of it. Not alone is information imparted by the lecturer, but in each place that the lecturer visits, an association is formed for the prevention of tuberculosis, and in many cases active working committees are formed for the spread of knowledge how to prevent tuberculosis. More than that, local medical men are giving lectures in their own communities and

in neighbouring communities. There are very few medical men, I hope there are none, who cannot stand up and intelligently instruct an audience in the details for the prevention of this disease, so far as those details are known to-day. *
I may say that over and above what has been said in regard to tuberculosis, over and above the spread of Knowledge how to prevent this disease, the enlightenment has not ended there, but it has gone beyond the bounds of the object first intended, and the knowledge of the prevention generally of all disease has been spread throughout the country. People have learned, not only how to prevent tuberculosis, but in learning how to prevent that they have also learned a better mode of living. More sunlight is entering the homes of our people, more fresh air is entering their houses, and a more sensible mode of preparing and eating our food, is being adopted, while a better knowledge of hygienic laws has been spreading all over the country. Now the question is being asked, if we can prevent tuberculosis, why can we not prevent other diseases? Interest has been awakened all over this continent, and in many parts of Europe, not only in the prevention of tuberculosis, but in the prevention of other diseases as well. This of course is beyond what was intended by the anti-tuberculosis association, but it is'a fact that the good work has gone beyond the bounds that were first measured out for it by the society. In the United States the light has spread abroad so much that men of wealth are devoting their means to the prevention, not only of tuberculosis, but of other diseases. We read in the newspapers an announcement that Mrs. Russell Sage has donated a million dollars in aid of the campaign against tuberculosis. That would have been an astonishing thing ten or fifteen years ago, but it shows how public interest is being aroused, and how men of means are turning their attention to this philanthrophic work. We also read that Mr. John D. Rockefeller has promised that he will give a million dollars to combat the hook-worm, which is a very destructive disease in the southern states, and that Mr. Andrew Carnegie will give a like amount towards battling pellagra, which is another disease carrying off many thousands in the southern states. Thus you will see that from the point where the anti-tuberculosis association began, the good work has gone on until it is spreading all over this continent and all over the world.
But this is only a sample of what has been done. Since the anti-tuberculosis societies have g;ot to work the question has been asked over and over again, not only, how can we prevent that disease, but how can we prevent other diseases, how can we save human life? For instance, atten-Mr. BLACK.
tion is now turning strongly toward the prevention of the slaughter of the innocents, the alarming and unnecessary deaths of little children, not only from tuberculosis but from ignorant care. There is nothing probably in Canada that is so decimating little children as ignorance in feeding them. The death rate among children in Canada is greater than any other death rate, and we might class the various diseases almost under one head, ignorance in feeding. There are every year over 31, 000 deaths of little children under five years of age. According to statistics in Canada, there are more deaths of children under five years of age, that is, more people die under five years of age, than die from the fifth to the fiftieth year. Much is being done through the interest awakened by the anti-tuberculosis association to prevent the enormous destruction of life in little children. In the city of New York a renowned philanthrophist, Mr. Nathan Strauss, has established milk depots to furnish pasteurized milk, in many cases for nothing, in many cases at cost price, to every one who wants it, and the health department of New York claim that he has reduced infant mortality in New York one-half. '
I have a clipping here from a Montreal paper of March, 1907. This is just an average statement that I happened to run against. [DOT] In March, 1907, in Montreal, in one week, there were 114 deaths; of these 114 deaths 103 were of children under five years of age. That is a terrible and unnecessary slaughter. The Guelph, Ontario, health officer reports 110 per thousand children died there against 11 per thousand of total deaths. That is an awful thing, but unfortunately, it is true. In Paris, so anxious have they become to save the lives of children, that they not only send out instructions to mothers how to feed and care for their children, but they have established depots all over the city where noor mothers, those below the poverty line, may go and have all the food they want to eat as many times a day as they please. The only requirement is that she is a mother and is, nursing her babe. The French government appreciate the necessity of preserving the lives of their people and they have taken this step amongst the poorest. All over the city of Paris they [DOT] have established these depots for the feeding of nursing mothers. The same care is being taken in other countries as well.


Mr. BLAIN.: May I ask the hori. gentleman if he has any statistics along the line of the free distribution of milk or the distribution of milk at cost price in the Dominion of Canada?


Judson Burpee Black: No, we have nothing of the kind in Canada.


Richard Blain: I may say that something of-the kind is being done pretty extensively in Toronto now.


Judson Burpee Black: I know that Toronto is taking steps in that direction but we have no statistics from that city. I am speaking of these things as the result of the light being spread by the anti-tuberculosis associations of the country. I want to show that they have gone beyond what they first intended, fortunately, and that the whole world is being educated up to the prevention of disease. Prevention, prevention, everywhere! That is something that has been done and it is a grand record. We have to thank our government for what they have assisted us in doing in Canada. Another question would be: Is this a paying investment? The government gave us last year $5,000. Have they got interest for their money? I think, from the local knowledge that many of us have, and judging from the local work done that the government have not only received good interest for their money but have received compound interest. Not only do I believe that they have received compound interest but I believe that the debt of $5,000 has been paid and that the government are deeply indebted to the antituberculosis association of Canada. I want to repeat that I believe that not only has this investment been a good one but I believe that in the matter of dollars and cents, in saving wage earners, in saving people to help to build up this country, the government of Canada-the peonle of Canada-are indebted to the anti-tuberculosis association for the great work they have done. I hope the government will not only give twice $5,000 this year but that they will increase the grant each year. I think we have shown that a great work has been done and I think we have shown that it is a grand investment for the government. What more should be done? I think that, in consideration of what they have done in -checking the spread of tuberculosis, in consideration of the great good they have done not only in the fighting of this disease but in the spreading of knowledge for the prevention of other diseases, the government acknowledge their duty to the country to send out information instructing the people how to protect themselves. It has been stated by the gentleman who moved this motion that the government have expended a great deal of money in preserving the lives of domestic animals. They have and I think every dollar has been well spent. Half a million was spent last year, or the year before, and I do not think any body will find any fault with it or will say that it was not a profitable investment yielding good interest. But, if the government feel the responsibility of protecting and preserving the lives of domestic animals, surely the government
must feel their responsibility in preserving the lives of the people, and I think the time has come when the government should, in a more systematic way, take ud this question of public health, either by forming a bureau of public health, which, I believe, is the proper course,, or by starting in the direction of teaching the people how to preserve the public health. The hon. gentleman who moved this motion laid considerable stress upon the work done in publishing pamphlets and circulating them all over the country. Why not the government appoint a special agent to publish pamphlets on the prevention of other diseases? Why not teach communities that there is no need of having typhoid fever? Why not teach municipalities that it is a disgrace to have typhoid fever? Why not teach the people that small-pox, typhoid fever, measles, scarlet fever, whooping cough and all diseases of that class are unnecessary and preventable? We have fairly driven smallpox out of Canada. We have driven typhoid out of many communities. We have lessened the death rate of all these diseases and no one will gainsay the reasonable possibility of driving out of this country all these preventable diseases if the proper steps were taken. Would it not be money well invested if $5,000 or $10,000 were expended in distributing pamphlets all over Canada instructing the people how to preserve their health and how to prevent these diseases? The day has long gone by when the old verdict 'died by the visitation of God' is indulged in. We know that people die in many instances when there is no necessity of their dying. Of course, all men have to die, but the unnecessary loss of life among the wage earners and producers at the producing time of their life is immense. Would it not pay the government, would it not be a good investment, casting aside all the humanitarianism of it to adopt some systematic mode of teaching the people how to save their own lives? As the previous speaker (Mr. Perley) has said, we expend a lot of money in bringing immigrants into this country and we do that rightly, every one will commend the exertions of the government in bringing people into Canada, for we need them; but how much more .sensible, how much better, to save the lives of our own people? Thirty-one thousand infants die every year, one-half of whom, according to expert evidence, might be saved; and I think that is a small proportion, more than one-half might be saved. Add to that the tens of thousands who die of typhoid or other diseases in middle life or earlier manhood. Think ot all this enormous loss which is being permitted without an effort on the part of the government to stop it, yet we are spend-

ing money in bringing foreigners in to take the places of those who die.
It is sometimes said that this is the work of the provincial governments. I do not know where that theory has come from. I have looked over' the British North America Act and find nothing there to justify it. When that Act was framed, very little progress had been made in state sanitation, in state medicine in public health. I think the first active organized step taken on this continent was a state society or board of health formed in Massachusetts when I was a student in college in 1863. Only two references to public health occur in the British North America Act. One defines what the provinces are to do and the other what is within the -jurisdiction of the Dominion. The Dominion has quarantine and the establishment and maintenance of marine hospitals. To the provincial government is allotted the establishment, maintenance and management of hospitals, asylums, charities, eleemosynary institutions in and for the province other than marine hospitals. There is no further reference to public [DOT]health. In the United States form of government anvthing that is not expressed as belonging to the federal government goes to the state government. In Canada the exact opposite prevails, what is not mentioned as belonging to the provinces, belongs to the federal government. Therefore, I maintain it is the duty of the federal government to take such steps as will protect the health of the people. At the same time there it no necessity of interfering with the rights and the work of the provincial governments. The federal government is doing many things for the benefit of its people that are also being done by the provincial governments, and I do not know that they ever clash. Both are doing their work in agriculture and in many other things. To advance this constitutional difficulty seems like shirking a duty, like hunting for an excuse, like the argument that the Levite might have used when he found the poor fellow wounded and suffering by the wayside. He might have said: I belong to a tribe whose duty it is to perform religious ceremonies only; I am not here to attend to the fallen, it it not my work, the man probably has friends or relatives somewhere-and so he passed by on the other side. How much better for the government to take the course of the Samaritan who came along that way. I think he was a country doctor, by the way, because he was poor and had only a few coppers in his pocket, but he had a big heart in his body and he took up the poor fellow, he did not wait to say: This fellow may not be deserving and it is not my place to look after him anyway, he probably has friends some-Mr. BLACK.
where. He assisted him as far as he was able with first aid to the wounded and then took him to the first hotel he came to. Like many another country doctor he had not much to pay his board, so he ran his face for the man's board for several days until he might come back again. How much better for the government to take that course, helping in this great cause of humanity.
I have no doubt this is coming, I have no doubt we will have the government of Canada, as well as the local governments, taking hold of this great work of assisting the people to preserve their lives. I hope this -question will be discussed during the evening session, I hope that not only every medical man in this House will support the member for Argenteuil in his resolution, but that as many laymen as medical men will urge this thing and not forget that there are other diseases besides tuberculosis, in preventing which this government should assist.
At six o'clock the1 House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE (Marquette).: Now, we have heard a great deal about the British North America Act standing in the way and preventing us from taking up this work as a Dominion work. I think that argument has been effectually disposed of by the hon. members who preceded me. This British North America Act is held up as a bugaboo, it is treated as an excuse for us to unload our responsibilities, or a portion of our responsibilities, upon the provincial authorities. I do not see why we should allow this to scare us away from our duties, or why we should plead it as an excuse. Illustrations have been given here to-day of the way in which the officials of this government act in concert with those of the governments of the several provinces in matters relating to education. Now, education is a subject that is relegated solely to the control of the provinces by the British North America Act, but consider such a matter, for instance, as the education of the farmer. Go to a meeting of a farmers' institute, and there on the same platform you will find a Dominion government official from one of the experimental farms who is there to assist in educating the farmer in the best way to carry on some of the many operations of the farm, and also some professor sent out under the auspices of the provincial authorities to carry on the work of education. These two officials work together, there is no clashing of authority, no question is raised by the provincial authorities that the Dominion government must keep off its preserve and must leave education wholly to the provinces. They are only too glad to share their responsibility. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) will know full well that a few years ago the question of looking after the health of animals was, in some provinces at least, wholly in the hands of the provincial authorities. But a mutual understanding was arrived at between the officials of the Minister of Agriculture and the officials of the provinces and this was handed over to the Dominion government, though, prior to that time, it had been thought a matter wholly within the jurisdiction of the province. The leader of the opposition (Mr. K. L. Borden) referred to cases in which assistance was given by this government to railways working under provincial charter. And so we could go on giving illustration after illustration to show that there has been invasion of the provincial domain without objection from the provincial authorities. This fight against tuberculosis should be a national affair. There will be no jealousy, no cry of provincial rights or anything of that nature from the provincial governments if the Dominion government desires to come in and lend a helping hand. We hear it stated that the Dominion government should not build sanatoria or hospi-Mr. EOCHE.
tals. That may be very true. But the Dominion government can render assistance to such institutions in operation. There are to-day at least two hospitals that are managed under civic authority-those at Winnipeg and St. Boniface-that receive money grants from the Dominion parliament. Why? Because immigrants are brought in by the Dominion government and dumped in the 'city of Winnipeg, and the Dominion authorities do not think it right or fair that the whole expense of treating and looking after those immigrants who need hospital care should devolve upon provincial or civic authorities. The Dominion recognizes that it has a duty to perform, and so it aids these hospitals by money grants year after year. We are carrying on a propaganda in the provinces to-day. They are doing good work by means of distribution of literature and by lectures. In this and other ways, many of the provinces are doing their full duty. Besides, we have our medical associations, and, philanthropists as they always are, the medical men are discharging their duty in the matter by getting out pamphlets on the disease and having them widely distributed. The good done by the central anti-tuberculosis association has been referred to by the hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley). It is a good work. I think $5,000 is entirely too small a sum to enable that board to discharge the functions that they have been trying to discharge during the last two years, at any rate I would certainly favour an increased amount for the central association. But, in addition to all this, we require the united and hearty co-operation of the Dominion government. If we do not wish to go into the sanatoria business ourselves

and I am not urging the government to do so at the present time-we would assist those sanatoria now in operation by giving them grants according to population of the hospitals or by giving grants outright as they do in the case of the Winnipeg and St. Boniface hospitals.
There are many things this government might do in addition to improving sanitary conditions. I will refer to one of them, and I have already refered to it when speaking on this subject in years past. I think we ought to have a Dominion laboratory in this country where our young men could enjoy the opportunities for experimentation that are afforded in other countries. Is it not rather humiliating to think that in a nation like Canada, her young men have to go abroad to find under a foreign flag a scope for their talents, where they are enabled to experiment in the preparation of serums, anti-toxins, and such drugs which we have to import from England, or Germany, or the United States? If we were alive to our owm duty u'e should provide scope for our own young men, and w'e would

have the serums manufactured within the confines of our own country. I commend these few remarks to the House, and especially to the Minister of Agriculture. I tiust the Dominion government will grapple with this question with a little more vigour than they have shown in the past. While 1 commend them for what they have done in the past, I think that a much wider field lies open before them full of opportunities, end I would urge upon them to take into their serious consideration this subject with a view of meeting more fully than in the past the urgent demands of the country in this matter.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I do not intend to take up much time in discussing this subject. One splendid feature of the debate so far is that the speeches have been so short; that is a plan which I very much favour in the discussion of all subjects. I think we are indebted to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Perley) who introduced this motion, and who introduced the same subject four or five years ago. I propose in my remarks to took at the subject from a little different point of view than that from which other hon. gentlemen have chosen to regard it. I do not think any medical man, or any layman, need make an apology to this House for taking up -some time in discussing this great question. My hon. friend from Argent-euil made many pertinent remarks, but none was more pertinent than when he said that if the people of this country were familiar, as they should be, with the ravages -of this -disease, the government would be compelled to act. I think that is an absolute fact. When we realize that in Canada to-day there are from 50,000 to 60,000 people affected with tuberculosis, and that from 10,000 to 12,000 are dying annually, the -subject assumes tremendous importance. Especially do we become impressed in view of tire well established fact to-day that tuberculosis is not only a preventable disease, but it is a curable disease. I know it is very difficult to make the people believe that, it will be difficult to make many members of this House believe it. Any medical man in this country "who has practised for some time will tell you that when a patient comes to us for physical examination with the slightest idea that he is affected with tuberculosis, it takes a 'good deal of courage on -our part to give the patient a straight -diagnosis. We have always felt in our practice that once we declare the patients to be tubercular, or to have consumption, as the term is, they pretty nearly always abandon hope; there is no question about that. Now, if medical science has done nothing more than to restore hope m the breast of the patient, it has certainly done a great -deal already, for any physi-'	45
cian is ready to admit that hope is one of the greatest aids we have in the medical profession.
Now, Mr. Speaker, it may seem a strange thing to say that tuberculosis is curable, or that it is preventable. But that is a fact established centuries ago. In the first centuries the best medical men held that this disease was contagious, that it could be communicated from -one person to another; they went further, and they said that the best means of curing it was fresh air. Now we have got but very little beyond that state of affairs to-day. I think there is no medical man in Canada who pretends to prescribe medicine now to his tubercular patients; he advises them to live out of doors, and that is the reason why the idea of the sanatorium lia3 arisen and has taken so much extension. They went further in olden times, and ws find that in the fifteenth century they used means which we do not often use to-day, but which we should use to a greater extent than we do. If a patient died of tuberculosis -or consumption, as it was then termed, the clothing and the -bed-clothing had to be destroyed. Now -certainly that is an evidence -of the -belief that tuberculosis is preventable or curable. The question then arises in our minds, how is it that, if this belief has been prevalent -during all those centuries, we have not made more progress in -our treatment of the disease? In regard to the sanatoria in -Canada, I think perhaps we have -done as much as most other countries, considering that we are a new country. I remarked a little while ago that from 50,000 to 60,000 people in this country were affected with tuberculosis, and yet in spite of all that the provinces have done, they have only beds for about 500 patients.
1 have a list of the provinces, but I will not read it. It is enough to say that in the whole Dominion there are only -beds for about 500 patients.
Now it is established that the treatment patients receive in the sanatorium is the only kind that holds out much hope for them as a cure of tuberculosis. What is to .become of all the others? And just at that point comes in the work of the association of which my hon. friend who introduced this motion was talking to-day, in connection with the education of the people. He has given you a pretty clear idea of what that association is doing in an educational way. I just refer to that to point out that we have only provided for 500 persons and to ask what we are going to do for the rest. I have had a little experience with tuberculosis and I have looked into the experience of some of the best men of this country. I say that spieh-did results can be achieved outside of a sanatorium. The same kind of treatment is required inside and outside of a sana-


SNOWMOO'
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toiium. Persons should be instructed to sleep outdoors, to sleep on the verandah.
I live in a fairly cold country and some people may say: Surely your patients cannot sleep outdoors in Manitoba? I have patients with whom I have achieved great success in my own practice. I might also refer you to Dr. Bell, one of the best bacteriologists of this country, an honest man, and he cures a great many patients by having' them sleep, during even this winter, on the verandah. That is one point that this association should impress upon the people. They should instruct them that if they cannot go to a sanatorium they can take the same kind of treatment. I have very carefully read the speech that the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) made five years ago on this subject and for fear that I may misquote him I want to refer to a few sentences which he used. I wonder if he has read over this speech carefully since he made it. It is in the minister's department that this matter is placed and I would like to have more faith that the minister is in earnest in connection with this great question, but I look upon this speech of his as more the speech of the politician than of the statesman, as trying to evade the question by having recourse to the British North America Act, trying to get all out of that Act that can be got out of it in connection with this most important subject. He says:
I would point out that up to the present time no scheme has been put forward by those who are interested and who form this association which they could lay before the government or before parliament to indicate in w hat way such work as that might be improved, extended or rendered more effective.
If he had any excuse along that line when he spoke before, I think the hon. gentleman who introduced this motion to-day has taken that excuse from him, and I just wondered when my hon. friend was speaking what kind of a speech he would make to-night in reference to that point. They may not have done all they could. I am of the opinion that there are too many academic speeches on this as on many other subjects, and I want to get down to practical facts. I think, in the short time at my disposal, that I can show the minister that, notwithstanding how hard and fast the British North America Act may be, there are lines along which this government can act and do as much good as if the British North America Act in this respect was wide open.
It is quite possible that the association for preventing the spread of tuberculosis may be able to provide that information. ... It would be impossible, I think, for me or any other member of the government to decide or to say what we ought to do or what we could do until some detail of a scheme of the kind were laid before parliament and before the , Mr. SCHAFFNER.
government, but we think that it would be in the interest of the people at large that those who are to-day giving their attention to this work should turn their attention most particularly to devising something which ought be done under the authority and through the intervention of this parliament.
I think that the hon. gentleman who introduced this motion has made that right.
To the Dominion is given by the British North America Act the establishment and maintenance of quarantine and the establishment and maintenance of marine hospitals.
The Minister of Agriculture will go no further than that. Well, let us take him at his word. But, before I refer to that, a contrast was drawn in the_ House this afternoon between those countries that have adopted the outdoor treatment for the cure of tubercular patients and those countries which have paid no attention to outdoor treatment. In England, in 1891, about 224 people in ten thousand died of tuberculosis. To-dav in England they cure about fifty per cent of the patients, and instead of having 22i deaths in ten thousand they have about half that number. Portugal, which has done verv little for the relief oi its people in this connection and which has a population of 4,500,000, loses about
20,000	people annually from tuberculosis. I do not think it is necessary for me to call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to anv other instances. There are two bald cases. One has adopted the outdoor treatment and the results are apparent. I believe that this government have a duty to perform no matter what view they take of the British North America Act, and I am going to refer to a few of the wavs in which that duty can be carried out. Tuberculosis to-day is considered to be a contagious disease which can be communicated from one to the other. I admit that there is perhaps too much stress laid upon the question of the sputum or that which the tubercular patient spits out and which, becoming dry, is disseminated and breathed in by other people. No doubt that is the most prominent way of communicating the disease, but there are many other wavs. When a patient coughs, the moisture which is discharged into the atmosphere certainlv is a means of contagion. Living in ill-ventilated rooms, poor food, insufficient clothing, anything that reduces the constitution of the individual, is a means of inducing tuberculosis. My hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) referred to the milk supply. That is a more important question than this country has yet realized. We have found that tubercular bacilli are not affected very much by the gastric juices of the stomach. The bacillus still remains in such a condition that it is able to do a great deal of damage

to the child or person who has drunk it. It seems to be absorbed into the glandular system. While the results along that line are not very clear there is still a great deal of opinion that we contract tuberculosis from eating the meat of tubercular animals. My hon. friend from Grev (Mr. Miller) asked a question along that line, and I may be anticipating what he wishes to demonstrate by saying that this government have spent more in guarding animal life than they have on humanity. I do not care how much they spend in protecting domestic animals from disease, if in all cases the money is spent judiciously and to the best advantage; but I believe that we should take even more pains than we have bestowed on the cattle we import into this country in the protection of human life. In relation to cattle we have to-day the tuberculin, test, by which we may ascertain absolutely that the food of which we partake is free from tuberculosis. Having that test, money is no consideration; at any cost we must be sure that our food, our meat and milk are free from tuberculosis.
But let us for a moment consider other methods by which the federal government can do great work in preventing tuberculosis. It has been said that if we are to grapple with this great subject we need an intelligent people, expert physicians and wise governments. Look to-day at the army and navy, where you have intelligent official superintendence of the health of men. Fewer cases of tuberculosis develop in the army and navy of Great Britain than in any other set of men. Why? No man can enter either the army or navy until he passes a satisfactory physical examination by a medical man and he is examined from time to time after enlisting; he must be physically healthy or he is not permitted to remain a member of the army or navy. Let our government apply that same principle m every department of its administration, and I am not sure that it will not do as much to prevent tuberculosis as all the sanatoria of this country are doing to-day. Take, for example, the opportunity'that lies before the government in the prevention of tuberculosis among Indians. We have in Canada to-day about 375 bands of Indians with a population of about 110,000. Every one knows that the Indian is four times as susceptible to tuberculosis as the white man. In the west the Indians generally wander over the country, in Ontario they live a more settled life and in Ontario they do not spread the disease to the same extent as in the Northwest. A little is being done for the Indians, but very little. Surely the British North America Act does not prevent the Minister of the Interior from having his officials ascertain who among the Indians are affected with this disease 45}
and seeing that they are segregated or kept from the other Indians, so that they are not spitting over the prairies with the chance that the sputum will be licked up by animals, absorbed into the glands and cause tubercular beef.
Let us look at the great department of the post office of this country. No other department of the government comes so closely in contact with the people as the Post Office Department. There is scarcely a person in Canada who does not have something to do with letters or papers handled by the post office. There are today almost 4,000 clerks in the post office of Canada. No one of these officers who handles tlm mails should be permitted to discharge his duties without having passed a physical examination for tuberculo.sis just as he would have to do in the Militia Department. There is great danger of the mail bags becoming contaminated with tubercular bacilli. At every station great bags of mail too heavy to be carried, are thrown from the mail car and dragged along and across the platform. Perhaps just before the mail bag is thrown on the platform a tubercular patient may have spat on the platform and I am almost afraid to say that one tubercular patient can expectorate seven billion tubercular bacilli in one day. Tubercular patients are not confined to bed in the earlier stages and in the small towns, as they have not much to do, they are likely to be found around the station at train time, so that this danger is a very real one. I would suggest to the government that they should have disinfecting stations for mail bags on the Atlantic and on the Pacific coast and also at one or more central points. It may be said that the mail is inside the bags, But as this economical government keeps patching these bags year after year and in sending them for repairs pack nineteen bags in one bag, the outside of each of these bags may contaminate the containing bag. Surely the British North America Act would not prevent these simple precautions in the Post Office Department, the disinfecting of mail bags and the physical examination of the men and women who handle the mail that goes into the families of different countries.	,
I am about to make a statement which I believe to be exceedingly important, but which I hesitate to make for fear of being suspected of unfair criticism. I may say, by way of preface, that I know very few civil servants in this country and that in the statement I am about to make I have no reference to any particular case. We have heard a great deal about isolating tubercular patients. We isolate small-pox and scarlet fever patients and we will never get rid of tuberculosis until we look on it just as we do on small-pox and scarlet
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fever. I am told that in the departments in Ottawa there are tubercular patients. If persons suffering from tuberculosis are likely to do harm on the farm, how much more harm are the'y likely to do where a great number of young men and young women, at the very age when they are most susceptible to this disease, are brought into contact with each other in their daily work. I am told that there are quite a few persons in the Civil Service of this town who are afflicted with tuberculosis in an advanced stage. If that condition of affairs exists, I say, with all sympathy for those who are afflicted, that it is a condition of affairs that should be remedied at once. If these civil servants are not in a position to take care of themselves, the government should do something for them; and I am prepared to support the expenditure of any amount of money for this purpose, for money is no object in dealing' with this great problem. But these persons should not, because they are poor or are deserving of our sympathy, be allowed to mingle from day to day with young men and young women who are free from that disease. This is another direction in which the British North America Act does not prevent the Minister of Agriculture working.
I am not going to discuss the Immigration Department. The Minister of the Interior is not here, and I do not want to say anything to which he would not have an opportunity to reply; but I have reason to believe that all the tuberculosis patients are not turned back, but a good many come in.
I feel that there is no subject that more deserves the attention of this House than this very question I have tried to suggest some methods by which the government could improve the present condition of affairs. I am strongly of the opinion that we should have in this country a bureau of health as a separate department. There is no other department so important. It seems strange that up to the present time the great country to the south of us has not had a bureau of health; but I am glad to observe that President Taft realized the importance of the subject and proposes that the United States shall have a bureau of health under a separate minister. Whether or not Canada could go just that far today I am not prepared to say, but I believe that is what we should aim at. The provinces are doing a great deal in this matter, and I am pleased to have a couple of photographs to show the Minister of Agriculture and other members of the government what the province of Manitoba is doing in this work. We shall have completed in about a month an institution with 50 beds. .
Now, this motion says:
That this House is of the opinion that parliament should now take more active steps to Mr. SCHAFFNER.
further lessen the great suffering and mortality caused by this disease.
I do not think I have said one word tonight outside the scope of that motion, and I would like to impress on every member of this House that he cannot do a better work for the people-and surely we are here to work in the best interests of the people-than to plead with his constituents to see that something is done in connection wutli this very important subject.
Henry Horton Miller: Mr. Speaker, I rise to take part in this debate for the sole and only purpose of acquainting this House with "the work that has been done by the Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis; in doing that, I do not wish to conceal the fact that my desire is to influence this government to make a larger grant to that association. I have been interested in and connected with the work of the association for several years, and it has been deemed to be due to this government, which has made an annual grant to the association for some years past, and due to this parliament that a fairly full account should be given of the manner in which the association has expended that money. The Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis was founded in 1899 at the instance of Lord Minto, then Governor General of Canada. In the early days of the association, its income was very small, and it could only attempt small things. In 1902 this government made a grant to the association of $1,000. In the following year the association engaged as its secretary the Rev. Dr. Moore, a Presbyterian minister who was greatly interested in the subject, a man of culture, tact and good judgment. Dr. Moore has continued in the service of the association as its secretary, and perhaps to no one person is due more than to him the success which has attended its efforts. For some time after Dr. Moore was engaged as secretary, the greater part of the work of the association was dope by and through him. His time was employed in part in the circulation of literature, which was mailed from the central office in Ottawa, and in part in delivering lectures throughout the Dominion. I do not think the association could have found any man within or without the medical profession whose lectures would have attracted more attention, aroused greater interest, provoked more inquiries or disseminated more information than the lectures given by this gentleman. I know this from reports which I have heard of his lectures and from having listened to one of his lectures myself. From those lectures much good has resulted.
In 1903 the Canadian government increased the grant of $1,000 to $2,000 and continued for some years after 1903 to give the increased sum per annum. In 1908

and 1909 the government was generous enough and wise enough to give the association an increased grant yearly of $5,000. These donations enabled the association to extend its work and the splendid results attained were soon apparent all over the land. In addition to the lectures delivered by Dr. Moore, and the circulation of literature, the association prepared articles and reports for the newspapers, and I desire to express the thanks of the association to the newspaper press of Canada for the liberal and prominent space they gave to these reports and articles. From the establishment of the association in 1899 to the present day, nine general annual meetings have been held, eight in Ottawa, which is the headquarters of the association, and the last one in Hamilton, Ontario. At each of these meetings addresses on the subject of tuberculosis, the best means of combatting it and preventing it, have been addressed by eminent medical men, most of them gentlemen who because of their special experience were peculiarly fitted to discuss the subject intelligently. Among the medical men who have addressed these annual gatherings have been Dr. Knopf of New York, Dr. Ravanel of Philadelphia, Dr. White of Pittsburg, Professor Adami of Montreal, the present president of the association, Drs. Richer and Laberge of Montreal, Dr. Sir James Grant and Dr. Bryce of Ottawa and Dr. Sheard of Toronto. The annual reports of the association have contained the addresses delivered by these eminent medical men together with a full report of the criticisms, notes and suggestions made by other medical men who were present at these gatherings. The annual general meetings of the association show clearly the awakened interest in this important subject throughout the Dominion for they have always been well attended by prominent medical and public spirited citizens from all over Canada. These annual reports have been mailed each year to persons who were known to take an interest in the subject and to great numbers of others who have written to the secretary requesting copies. Since 1899 when the association was established, fifty-five branch associations have been formed in different parts of Canada and there is no doubt at all but that these fifty-five associations were organized very largely through the influence of tile parent organization in whose behalf I speak to-night. Last winter Dr. Page of Quebec was instrumental in calling a public meeting which was attended by prominent citizens and as a result a local association was formed in the ancient capital. Since 1891 seven sanatoria have been erected in Canada, due largely to the interest awakened in the subject by the Canadian association for the prevention of tuberculosis. Free dispensaries have been
established in Winnipeg, Toronto, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa and Halifax. A great deal of literature has been distributed by the association and this literature has been written in plain English, which the lay people can understand. This literature has I believe taught the people who read it the best methods of stamping' out the disease, of preventing contagion and infection, and taking care of the unfortunate patients. Here are some samples of this literature:	Here is a little pamphlet
entitled ' Consumption-treatment at home, and rules for living,' this is an English publication written by H. Wassen Trowe, M.D.; here is another little pamphlet entitled ' Social and medical diseases by A. J. Richer, M.D., Montreal,' here is a paper written by Sir James Grant, upon our children ; here is a leaflet that has been widely circulated, entitled 1 How to prevent consumption '; another entitled ' Inspection of milk and meat '; another entitled ' Inspection of schools and school children '; another entitled ' consumption, its cause, treatment, and prevention.' Literature of this kind printed in the English and French languages has been circulated so persistently that including the literature now on hand it will amount to 7,000,000,000 pages. This literature has been systematically circulated and those employed in distributing it take the voters' lists of the municipalities as the mailing lists from which to make the distribution. So great has been the interest taken by the people of the country generally in^ this literature that in advance of the mailing many applications have been coming in from all over Canada asking the secretary to send literature. Many hundreds of letters have been received from all parts of the country expressing appreciation of this literature and the thanks of the recipients. The head office of the association in Ottawa has been a general information bureau; people in every province of the Dominion haye been constantly writing to the secretary for all kinds of instruction. Letters have come from the individual patient wanting to know how to regulate his diet and his habits of living; letters have come from friends, members of whose families have been afflicted, and letters have come from communities who contemplate the building of sanatoria asking for plans and estimated cost and such details. All of these letters have been promptly and carefully replied to. Lecturers of the association have lectured not only at public meetings specially called for the purpose, but at medical associations, normal schools, colleges, the senior departments of public schools, teachers associations, farmers gatherings and all kinds of public assemblies. The lecturer of the association at these gatherings has been a most welcome guest and has been most carefully listened to. Dr.

Valin, professor of Hygiene of Laval university is now engaged by the association to lecture on tuberculosis in the French tongue throughout the province of Quebec.
In 1908, our association was fortunate in securing the services of Dr. George D. Porter. Dr. Porter was engaged by the association as associate secretary and travelling lecturer. The experiences of Dr. Porter's own life have peculiarly fitted him for the work in which he is now engaged. He is not only an enthusiast, but an expert, and not only an expert, but an enthusiast- the right man in the right place.


Judson Burpee Black: Hear, hear.


Henry Horton Miller: The hon. member for Hants says: 'Hear, hear.' He has heard Dr. Porter within the last few months and knows whereof he speaks in approving that gentleman's work. So great was the inter-[DOT] est of Dr. Porter in the work of the association, so well does he realize the necessity of this work, that for several months he gave his services to the association entirely without charge. And the association was glad to avail themselves of his services without pay simply because there was not a dollar in the treasury with which to pay him. However, from every quarter comes high praise of Dr. Porter's work. I desire to read a very short extract from the Charlottetown ' Guardian ' of November 18 last. This newspaper gives prominence to a long report of a meeting addressed by Dr. Porter. The heading is ' Charlottetown will fight white plague; a subordinate antituberculosis league formed last night at a meeting which was addressed by Dr. Porter, who held the close attention of his audience.' One paragraph of this report says:
On the platform were his Honour the Lieutenant Governor, Premier Haszard, Dr. McLaughlin, Dr. Yeo, Dr. McNeill, Rev. G. J. McLeilan, Rev. Maurice McDonald, L. J. Miller and others.
This shows that the most influential and prominent people of the city listened with great interest to Dr. Porter, and, after hearing his lecture, organized a local association. I want to point out to you that not only were the people benefited who listened to Dr. Porter's words, but those who read the newspapers had the benefit of a careful and full report and thus received the information he gave. The Charlottetown 'Patriot' of November 12 says:
It is pleasing to note that Dr. Porter, the energetic associate secretary of the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Tuberculosis, is meeting with large and interested audiences in his tour through our own and the other maritime provinces. . . . The meetings at Mount Stewart and Souris, held on Wednesday and last night, were largely attended, the Mr. MILLER.
audience following closely Dr. Porter's plain, convincing talk. Dr. Porter to-night speaks at Montague and to-morrow night at York.
I find an account of the meeting addressed by Dr. Porter at Guelph. And, while at Guelph, by invitation of President Creel-man of the Ontario Agricultural College, Dr. Porter had the opportunity of addressing the students there. In Woodstock, by invitation of the principal, Mr. McNeil, he addressed the students of the college. And by invitation of the newly formed league in Galt, he returned in February and gave a public address upon tuberculosis. Let me read a letter written by Dr. Porter himself to Dr. Adami, the president of the association :
November 23, 1909.


Prof.   J.@: George Adami,
331 Peel Street, Montreal, Quebec.
Dear Doctor Adami,-I have much pleasure in submitting a brief report of the work which 1 have been engaged in this fall.
I have held twenty-two public meetings, addressed five different colleges and normal schools, and assisted in organizing six societies (Charlottetown, New Glasgow, Windsor, Fredericton, Moncton, and one for the three counties-Pictou, Guysborough and Cape Breton), and have met with an encouraging response from the medical profession, the press and the public in this work, the average attendance being about 300 at each meeting.
In New Brunswick, the Premier was present at a meeting in St. John, and evinced much interest in the work. His government contributed recently $20,000 towards some provision for cases in that province. Dr. Walker and myself had the privilege of bringing the work before the Presbyterian Synod while it was meeting in St. John.
In Halifax, Premier Murray has also been much interested in the work. The league which was recently organized there by Dr. MeCreay, of Montreal, is in a flourishing state and they are actively engaged in an educational campaign as well as in looking after a number of needy cases.
In Prince Edward Island, where eight meetings were held, both His Excellency the Governor General and the Premier expressed themselves in public as to the necessity of educating the public and in making provision for suitable cases.
I must mention the splendid series of five meetings which were arranged for me by Dr. Black, M.P., of Windsor, in the southwest portion of Nova Scotia (Windsor, Wolfville, Digby, Annapolis and Yarmouth).
At a meeting in New Glasgow a local league was formed and also a league for three counties (Pictou, Guysborough and Cape Breton), which is composed of the medical men and the authorities of the Francis Xavier College, of which Dr. McPherson was made honorary president. "Under the auspices of this league, an active campaign of education is to be undertaken. They have invited me to address some dozen meetings this coming month as a help towards arousing public interest.
Altogether the work in the maritime pro-

vinces and Prince Edward Island is very promising.
In the meantime, I have the honour to he Yours very truly,


GEORGE D. PORTER.
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Now, I have been connected with the work of this association only for the last two or three years. I feel that some mention ought to be made and some credit given to the persons who have borne the brunt of the work of the association, those *who formed the organization and have since helped in carrying on the work. I realize that, with my partial knowledge of the work, should I attempt to mention the names of those who are most entitled to credit in the early times of the association when it often met with discouragements- for those were days when the public interest was not manifested in the subject as it is to-day-I should omit some names perhaps as'well worthy of our thanks as those whom I shall mention. Yet I desire to name some to whom the thanks of this whole Dominion are due for the time and the talent and energy that they have devoted to the work of the association. I l ave already stated that the association was instituted at the suggestion of the Earl of Minto. To him is due, therefore, a very large measure of credit for what has been accomplished. His Excellency Earl Grey, our present Governor General, has been and is the honorary president of the association. He has not been a mere figurehead, but has taken an active, intelligent and helpful interest in the work. He has been personally present at some of the annual meetings, has delivered addresses and has shown his sympathy in many ways, has also given many useful hints that have been of real help to the association. The association has had no better, warmer, or more consistent friend than Hon. Mr. Fisher, the Minister of Agriculture. His time has been so fully taken up with other things that it has not been possible for him to be present at all the meetings of the association, yet he has kept himself informed of what is doing, has kept constantly in touch with the work and has given the association valuable advice and information and has been indeed a real friend. 1 may mention also Mr. Courtney, who was treasurer of the association and is now honorary treasurer. He laboured faithfully and well in the interests of the association. I would recall also the name of Senator Edwards, one of the earlier presidents of the association. I am not well acquainted with the work which Senator Edwards did, because he has not, since I became connected with the association, taken an active part, as I understand he did in the early days. The association has had no more ardent, practical, consistent friend than Mr. Geo. H. Perley, M.P., the mover of this resolution. I will also mention the names of Sir
James Grant, of Dr. Small, of Mr. Manuel, of Dr. Montizambert and of Dr. Rutherford. All these gentlemen have aided very materially to bring about the success that has attended the efforts of the association. These men. you will observe, are all of the city of Ottawa, the head office of the association is in Ottawa; it is then a matter of necessity that the persons who take a prominent part and bear the brunt of the routine work are men resident of the city. But I would call your attention to this further fact, that Drs. Daniel, Black and Schaffner, and Mr. Barker, members of this House of Commons, are on the executive of the association; and while they have not attended all the meetings they have attended many of the executive meetings of the association. The association had the benefit of their knowledge, the benefit of their suggestions, and they have been exceedingly helpful. Then I point out that prominent medical men, and prominent public spirited men outside the profession, from one end of Canada to the other, have been very helpful indeed to the work of the association, helpful _ by their correspondence and the suggestions they have made by correspondence, and by attending the annual meetings, and exceedingly helpful to the association by carrying on field work in the localities in which they respectively live. I want to say that the work of the association has not been a local work, it has been a work extending from ocean to ocean, a work extending from the United States border line away to the far north, farther north than the white man has yet chosen permanently to reside.
It has been a work carried on in both French and English, and many lectures have been delivered in both French and English. The literature of the society has been printed in both languages. The aim, the object of the association has been to enlighten the ignorant and to help the poor. When I say to enlighten the ignorant, I mean to enlighten those who have been ignorant of the great facts concerning this dread disease. I would say that the aim of the association has been to help the poor. The association has helped the rich as well as the poor, but in this as in every other case those most needing help have been the poor who, because of their poverty have been unable to help themselves.
The question may well be asked, the question has been asked: Why has not the work of the association been carried _ on by private subscription? Sir, it is just as easy to answer that question as it is to ask it. It was, I think, well answered by the hon. member for Argenteuil who moved the resolution, when he said that the aim of the central organization is to promote the establishment of branch associations. The moment you establish a branch as-
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sociation you establish a centre to which of necessity must be contributed all the funds that can b*e gathered in that locality for carrying on the local work. The bon. member for Argenteuil has given an instance of that as relating to the work in the city of Ottawa, where local public spirited men have contributed liberally and generously to the construction and maintenance of a hospital in the city, and to other work carried on within the city. It is not possible for every local association to build a hospital or sanatorium, but in the smaller local communities, in the smaller villages and towns, in rural centres where local associations are formed, it will be their duty to see that every consumptive patient within their territory is practically taken care of in their own homes where they may be provided with proper medical care, with proper nursing, with proper food, where they lack either means or intelligence to obtain that food for themselves. It will be the work of the local associations in such places to see that sputum cups are provided, and that every possible means is taken by proper sanitary regulations in order that there may not be contagion and infection carrying the disease to others as well as to those already affected.
Sir, it has been pointed out that this government has expended over a million and a half dollars in the last five years in preventing and stamping out disease in domestic animals. No one has found fault with that, no one will. It has been a very important work, properly and well carried out. But, Sir, if it is a praiseworthy work to expend a million and a half in five years to cure diseases of horses, cattle, sheep and swine that are in the barnyards, it is at least as important and much more important to spend large sums for the cure of men, women and children who are in the dwelling houses. I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, and I want to say to this government, that every single dollar that has been given by the government to the association has been economically, wisely and carefully spent. It has surprised me to see how exceedingly careful the expenditure of every single dollar was weighed and considered before the expenditure was ventured upon.
It may be said that if this association depends, as I admit that it does depend, almost entirely, one might say entirely, upon the government for its income-it may be said that it is really a government undertaking, and some may say, as I have heard some say around me to-night, that if the government provides the whole amount, the government might as well take over the work. But I wish to say that even though we admit that it is really and substantially the work of the government, yet I say that the work is being better carried Mr. MILLER.
on, more economically carried on, than it could possibly be carried on by any department of the government. Why? Because this work being carried on by a private association receives the gratuitous assistance, the gratuitous aid of clever, earnest and zealous men, aid which the government could not obtain gratuitously, and that is a very important consideration.
Further, let me say that gentlemen interested in the association recently approached the railways of the country and asked them to provide free passes for carrying to and fro the lecturers of the association; and I want to convey the thanks of the association to the railway companies for their generosity. The Canadian Pacific railway, the Grand Trunk railway, the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Intercolonial railway have cheerfully and readily given free passes to the lecturers of the association. This effects a considerable saving that would not have been effected, and would not have been asked, and if asked would not have been granted, had the government been carrying on the work.
Now, Sir, in conclusion let me read to you this resolution recently passed at an executive meeting of the association. The resolution passed within the last week or ten days is as follows:
Ikat the association finds it quite impossible to carry on its work as it would like to no and teels that it ought to do, with its present small revenue. The association has endeavoured to send out over the whole Dominion, suitable literature, in the French language in the French districts, and in English throughout the remainder of the Dominion. And also to keep in the field continuously a medical lecturer, and other medical lecturers for portions of the year. The association has been much encouraged by the undoubted evidences of the splendid success of its work to date, and respectfully requests the parliament of Canada to largely increase this year the annual grant which they have been good enough to make to the association.
Now, Sir, in conclusion I have to thank the government on behalf of the association for their liberality, for their generosity in years that are past, and at the same time to ask the government, to ask parliament, to increase the grant this year from $5,000 to at least $10,000. The hon. member who placed this resolution on the Order Paper, in the last part of it, uses these words:
This House is of the opinion that parliament should now take more active steps to further lessen the great suffering and mortality caused by this disease.
I think, although I have no authority to speak for him, that the mover of the resolution and that the Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis will accept it as carrying out of the meaning

in this resolution if the government will be liberal enough to grant the association, for the present year, the sum of $10,000
Mr. E. PAQUET (L'Islet).: (Translation). Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) deserves the thanks of this House and of the people of Canada at large..
I trust this House will not share the opinion that parliament should take more determined steps to still further reduce the great sufferings; and the number of deaths caused by consumption. Yes, it is our duty to make the most strenuous efforts to reduce the rate of sickness and death caused by tuberculosis in our country. Canada loses 8,000 lives every year by that dreaded disease, while 40,000 persons are suffering with it in the various provinces of the Dominion. Allow me in view of these alarming figures to read an important page concerning the work that is being done in the state of Rhode Island to stay the progress of tuberculosis:
Despite its wealth, its strength and its prosperity, is the American nation in a position to throw absolutely away every year the , sum of $430,000,000?
This is the question which is put to the public by the Rhode Island Anti-Tuberculosis Association. According to secretary Wallace Hatch, the white plague means to the nation an annual loss of $430,000,000.
This loss of money and the still more deplorable loss of thousands of lives each year will be stopped as soon as the anti-tuberculosis associations which are at work in the whole extent of this country have succeeded in teaching the people at large the essential facts relating to the cause, the treatment and the prevention of this terrible disease.
The brightest future is confronting the workers in Rhode Island. They announce a very effective work already begun and to be pursued. The state board of health and those of the leading cities are doing inestimable service to the cause. Education boards are opening schools of instruction. Hygienic rules are printed dn the text books and doctors are permitted to address the pupils in schools.
Manufacturers on the other hand are contributing to the great popular movement of educating the masses by including in the pay envelopes printed rules on hygiene, by posting up useful informations in their shops and by recommending to their sick employees to report to local or nearby associations. Lectures are also delivered to the workingmen.
Ministers of the church lend their influential and benevolent support to the movement in their respective pulpits.
Many more private and public organizations do their utmost to help the authorities.
Every year this great regenerating movement in the United States which ds intended to snatch the white race from this plague that strikes at the country's vitals and open up every year iso many thousands of graves for youthful victims is making immense progress. The future of the nation is at stake. The work will only stop when the last man, the last woman, the last child in the country
will have intimately identified himself with it, and when the last track of tuberculosis has for ever vanished from the American soil.
We must for the sake of humanitarian-ism and in the interest of the people of Canada follow that wise advice and we will be able thereby to maintain our nation to the fore among the other nations of the world We join in the generous work accomplished by our elder brothers. Our doctors attended the anti-tuberculosis congress held at Washington in September, 1908. Medical men and the public at large in the city of Montreal are not indifferent to modern progress, and they endeavour to battle against the fearful foe. I read the following lines in the "Union Medicate du Canada" of December 1, 1909:
On November 29, 1902, a number of gentlemen prominent in the world of finance, industry and commerce, as well as in the professions, informed on the one hand with the means employed in the various countries for the prevention of tuberculosis and on the other, feeling justly alarmed at the ravages of the disease in our city, founded in a public meeting held under the patronage or liis Excellency the Governor General of Canada an association for the protection of the people against consumption. . .
Then the "Union Medicate" shows the happy results which crowned the efforts of those real philanthropists. Quebec city has also organized an anti-tuberculosis association, but this government must not remain idle. Here is what Dr. Rousseau said at the medical congress held at Three Rivers:
The government cannot remain indifferent in presence of the greatest social evil which exists. We do not expect them to do all that is to be done but we do expect them to do their share of educating work. Their imperative duty consists in spreading information and helping every anti-tuberculosis movement.
The rector of Laval University at Quebec, wishing to help in fighting the awful disease, invited Dr. Rousseau, in March, 1909, to deliver a lecture at the University on the nature of tuberculosis and the conditions in which it will develop. Allow me to read the last page of his lecture:
You cannot think nowadays of insolating the consumptive; of tearing him violently away from his surroundings before his sad death.
But let assistance be tendered them; let some guidance, some help be extended to them in the fulfilment of their arduous duties towards their kindred and towards society: either in a sanatorium, in a hospital or in their own homes, properly isolated, let them find conditions of comfort and safety which are not generally available to such patients. That iis what we are in a position to do and what we should do; there lies the way out, provided generous contributions are forthcoming.

But we prefer dickering, dilly-dallying in the hope perhaps, a vain hope for the time being at any rate, that some great cure, some anti-tuberculosis serum will be discovered, though there is not the least foreboding of -such a discovery.
Now, when there are available to us efficient means of protection, it is unfair and unwise on our part to neglect them and be content with beseaching the medical profession to effect some wonderful discovery for our protection. Thus are we courting sad disappointment. Wealth, indeed, is more frequently met with than genius.
The government of the province of Quebec has appointed a royal commission to look into the means of preventing the spread of tuberculosis. I anticipate satisfactory results from the findings of that commission. However, if we are truly -anxious of wiping out all traces of tuberculosis from our Canadian soil, we should close our doors to tuberculous immigrants. To attain that great object, to meet the wishes laid down in the resolution introduced by my hon. friend from Argentueil, we should adopt better methods of inspection as regards immigrants. Men in good standing attach great importance to the medical examination as now effected at the shipping port. What reliance should we put in such inspection?
In the month of August, 1906, inspector B. Smith, of the Ontario charitable institutions (Report for 1908, page 16) noticed on a steamer a poor tuberculous immigrant who could hardly walk. Of course, such an immigrant, on the verge of death, could not be admitted. He was deported by the authorities and died on reaching Glasgow. If the steamship company's medical officer had thought of casting an eye on that poor man, he would not have permitted him to board the ship. Disease was fast carrying away that immigrant, heartbroken and disappointed as he was. The whole system is a downright mockery. I have evidence from the best sources to uphold me in this. According to Doctor D. Page, immigrants at the shipping ports in Europe are subjected to a superficial examination only. According to Dr. Bryce, the inspection effected at the shipping ports does not differ from the ordinary routine of the steamship companies.
The Immigration Act provides that all persons suffering from contagious or infectious diseases shall be excluded. Consumption of the lungs which represents the last phases of tuberculosis, should certainly he included among the diseases of a contagious and infectious character. The laws of the United States specially mention tuberculosis, and rightly so. Now on May
10.	1909, the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson), requested that the Minister of the Interior should make provision for the exclusion of tuberculous immigrants. The hon. minister's answer was rather startling: Mr. PAQTJET.
' We all admit, he said, the advisability of excluding those who are suffering from tuberculosis, but its diagnosis is a difficult matter at its various stages, and we would bo imposing on the department a task which they could not fulfil in a satisfactory manner.' I deplore this woeful expression of opinion, this extraordinary stand on the part of the minister.
As regards the greater number of immigrants sent to Canada by charitable associations, the trade carried on, the air breathed in the factories, the overcrowding in tenements, poor ventilation, scarcity of light and suitable food are so many factors concerning which the authorities should exert the closest supervision. The proportion of people affected or dying from tuberculosis in British cities, whence thousands of immigrants come to Canada, is verj high. Such immigrants should be submitted to a very searching examination of the respiratory organs.
In 1906, at the meetings of the anti-tuberculosis association, Dr. Page submitted an interesting paper on tuberculosis from the standpoint of immigration. He showed how dangerous was the situation and tried to indicate a remedy. Indeed the members of the association at once appointed a committee to interview the hon. Minister of the Interior. The latter promised to take the most energetic steps towards excluding tuberculous people. Notwithstanding which, on May 10, 1909, the hon. minister refused to include tuberculosis in the list of diseases entailing exclusion.
Tuberculous immigrants are coming in. Dr. Page, in the course of the civil service investigation spoke as follows: ' A certain number of tuberculous immigrants may escape our attention. The disease is difficult to diagnose at its inception, and we have not enough time at our disposal to make the required examination Such a startling statement points to the absolute insufficiency of our system of medical inspection. In the crusade we are waging against this most disastrous disease, it is to the government we must appeal for guidance and help.
The hon. Minister of the Interior taking heed of the progress of scientific discovery, should lay down as a rule the exclusion of tuberculous immigrants. He should increase the number of our medical inspectors at all large ports. He should promptly adopt a system whereby these medical men would be in a position to carry on careful examinations with the object of detecting any incipient case of tuberculosis. I am aware that the diagnosis of that disease is not always an easy matter. Certain forms evolve insidiously, and little by little leave an impress on the organism. However, tuberculous people cannot readily escape detection by competent physicians, provided

the latter have enough time allowed them to permit a thorough investigation. In March, 1908, Dr. Bryce seems to think that the difficulties in the way of diagnosing cases of tuberculosis were sufficient to excuse the introduction of tuberculous immigrants into Canada. He even went so far as to quote high medical authorities with a view to proving that such diagnosis in a great many cases can be obtained only at an advanced stage of the disease. The stand taken by Dr. Brice seems to me most regrettable as regards the selection of immigrants. According to the most renowned clinicians, the diagnosis of incipient tuberculosis can be obtained by a series of clinical symptoms and phenomena following the injection of tuberculine. At the very outset, that is in the stage of primary development of the tubercles, the physician who undertsands auscultation is in a position to diagnose a case of tuberculosis. Through the use of the microscope and a knowledge of bacteriology, and by means of the X rays, cases of that disease may be diagnosed at the outset. The possibility of detecting incipient cases of tuberculosis imparts great practical interest to the examination of immigrants. We are sadly at fault when admitting tuberculous immigrants into Canada. Not only is there danger of contaminating the present generation of Canadians, but also of transmitting this tuberculous taint to future generations.
An incomplete, -insufficient medical examination is apt to give the worst results. Tuberculous immigrants begin by contaminating some of their fellow-travellers on board ship. Then they contaminate people with whom they live in Canada, and imperil the health and existence of the whole community. Previous to 1904 there existed no systematic inspection of immigrants. The government then recognized the necessity of medical intervention with a view to ascertaining what immigrants were possessed of sufficient brains to understand the working of our institutions and live in harmony with our people, while helping on our national progress. That was a step in advance ; however, legislation is still very imperfect. If we really have at heart our country's welfare, we are bound to improve our methods of inspection, in such a way as to exclude all tuberculous immigrants.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Mr. Speaker, I would not address the House at this late hour were it not that by remaining silent I might be misunderstood as either opposed to the resolution or not sufficiently interested in one of the most important subjects that can at any time engage the attention of the Canadian parliament. The knowledge that medical men have of the ravages of this disease and the possibility of curing hundreds of thousands of cases, in addition to relieving the
sufferings of a verv large number, lengthening their lives and minimizing the danger r f their presence amongst others, is such that no medical man can be indifferent to this very important question. There is equally good work open for us to do, whether it is by education, by hygiene, by prophylaxis, which is preventing, or by providing better food for the people. It is sufficient to engage the philanthropic attention of the best minds, not only of the medical profession to-day, but of any class of people in the community. It is said: How can we, the Canadian parliament, assist in this good work? It is claimed by some that it is not within our province to assist this work. This association aims purely at the dissemination of information. When has parliament disclaimed its right to give assistance in disseminating knowledge? Never. Since I came into the Canadian parliament or so far as I am aware before that time, it has never been claimed that it was unconstitutional or improper for this parliament to aid in the dissemination of information. We give money for the dissemination of information in a great many lines outside of that which claims our attention to-night. Many years ago we accented the principle and voted yearly $2,000 for the purpose of publishing a health magazine, or a bureau of statistics and health for the purpose of dealing with sanitary subjects. That was kept up for many years under Dr. Playter, and I do not think any one complained at the giving of that amount of money nor was it considered that there was not an ample return to the country for its expenditure. I claim that parliament can spend monev for any purpose it likes, there was no interference with our right either in the British North America Act or any other Act. We can subsidize anything we desire, we can give money for any purpose we wish. We subsidize the building of railways by money grants, we give money to steamships, we vote money to employ lecturers to instruct the farmers with reference to- diseases of plants, grain, fruit and all vegetable diseases. No one objects to this nor does any one say it is wrong. We give aid to lectures to the farmers with regard to the diseases of animals, and why can we not as well vote money to disseminate information with regard to what is above all these others in importance, the health of our people. If we vote monev for these purposes in relation to plants and animals, whv can we not do it in the interest of the great human family? It is said that from 8,000 to 10,000 die annually of this disease in Canada. If we can do anything to lessen that number, surely a donation of money is not out of place. We mav lessen the death rate by disseminating knowledge, teaching the peo-

pie how to prevent and combat that disease. It you educate people so that they will understand how to prevent consumption, how to care for themselves by better hygienic surroundings when affected by it, how to isolate themselves, you will go a long way towards lessening the death rate from consumption. But we can go further and educate the people to care for themselves from a sanitary and dietetic point of view, teaching them the value of fresh air and of favourable surroundings. To mv mind if we gave instead of $4,000 or $5,000, a couple of hundred thousand, not one word of complaint would be heard in the country. But we must do more than educate, we must prevent it if possible. It has been said that the Indian cannot bear civilization, he dies off when you civilize him. What is meant by civilization? Taking him out of the wigwam, removing him from his outdoor life, and placing him in a close sealed house. The result is that consumption carries off thousands of Indians, and if the Indians were compelled to live in the same kind of lath and plaster house that the white man lives in it would be only a few years until they would be wiped out. Why is it so few Indians die when living a nomadic life? Because the fresh air, by vitalizing the blood, prevents the development of the bacilli favourable to tuberculosis in the human economy.
We must check consumption by supplying pure food. We must go beyond the disease among human beings and secure immunity from the disease in animals as well. In a report of the United States Department of Agriculture for 1905, I find some statistics bearing on this which are of importance to us. We eat a great deal of beef and pork in this country. The United States Department of Agriculture state that out of 25,000,000 hogs slaughtered in one year in the United States, 217,000 were affected with tuberculosis. Out of 6,000,000 cattle 11,000 were affected with tuberculosis but out of 8,000,000 sheep only 27 were so affected. That is only one sheep in every 295,550 was affected with tuberculosis whilst amongst the cattle there were 555 in every 291,000 and amongst the hogs there were 2,393 affected with tuberculosis in every 291,000. Ought not this to teach us a very important lesson- that we are eating very much of that kind of meat which has in it the greatest elements of danger to the human family, and that of the three kinds of meat, mutton and lamb are what we should prefer if we desire to avoid that danger. We must attack this disease not only by education, but by building up a stronger and more vital physical constitution in the people, because the stronger the constitution the less liable it will be to the inroads of the disease. This is the reason for the im-


ME. SPROULE.
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portance of supplying the human family with good food, whether it is butter, meat, cheese or milk, in all of which the tuberculosis bacillus is found. The fact that thousands of infants are fed on milk which is largely tuberculous means that if these children grow up to manhood and womanhood they will have less vigorous constitutions to resist the disease than those who have been fed on pure food. How important it is, therefore, that we should attack tuberculosis in the dairies and in the herds of cattle and swine as well as in the human economy. In all of these directions we should spend money freely. A few years ago I asked the Minister of Agriculture if he had made any calculation of how long it would take to eradicate tuberculosis from the herds of our country. I do not remember what his answer was, but one who knew whereof he spoke said that we could eradicate it in a few years if we were willing to pay enough money to do the work. How valuable this would be to the many thousands of young children who live largely or chiefly on milk. This subject is too important to be set aside by any quibbles about our constitutional rights under the British North America Act. That Act does not stand in the way of our doing our duty in this matter. We build marine hospitals which will harbour tuberculosis patients as well as others. We can grant money for technical education to the farmer and the horticulturist. Why can we not grant money to educate the men who look after the health of the human family? In mv judgment we can do it, and I hope the Minister 9f Agriculture will give the House an intimation to night that the government have reached the conclusion that there is a valuable work in this matter that can and should be done, and that towards that work they are prepared to give adequate assistance.
Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Speaker, let me first congratulate the proposer of this resolution not only on the manner in which he has presented a complex and important question to the House, but also on the untiring enthusiasm and industry which he has displayed for many years past in presenting the question to the public of Canada as well as to the House. I also wish to join with my hon. friend from Grey in saying a word of praise and congratulation "to the members of the Canadian Association for the Prevention of the Spread of Tuberculosis. The gentlemen who have been engaged in this work have been doing sometimes" a very discouraging and sometimes, as it appeared to be, a thankless *work. But they have persisted in their efforts, until at last I think they have been able to show a measure of success which calls for the recognition and gratitude of the people of the country. In speaking on this question, let me at once, in response

to the appeal of my hon. friend from Grey, say that I wish to support the resolution, and I hope the House will adopt it with unanimity so as to show to the people of the country that this House fully realizes the importance of and entirely sympathizes with every method that can possibly be adopted for stamping out this very dangerous malady. I am prepared to say that as no new step is asked of us by the present motion, I believe the government will be ready to recognize the appeal of the House and ask for further aid for the Canadian association. In doing this we are adopting no new plan or taking no new step which might bring us into conflict with the constitution or with the provincial authorities. I am glad that on this occasion the debate has taken that course. I am glad that W'e are not asked, as we were on a former occasion, to do something that we could not see our way to doing. My hon. friend from Souris (Mr. Schaffner) quoted some remarks of mine made five years ago. Well, I have no objection to my remarks being quoted, although five years have passed, but I would like to point out to my hon. friend that I was then discussing a totally different proposition. We were then being asked to grant aid for the establishment of sanatoria in Canada-to do something which by the British North America Act is in definite words relegated to the provincial authorities. I do not wish to discuss to any great extent the question of the British North America Act, but I must confess that I am not as prepared to trespass upon the special purview of the provincial authorities as my hon. friend from Argen-teuil seems to think we ought to be. I do not consider that the illustration which he gave of the man in 'the burning house offending against a technical ordinance was a good one, because the question of the powers relegated by the British North America Act to the provincial authorities and to this parliament respectively is in no sense technical.
When that Act was drawn up those things which were more local in their character were placed under the control of the provinces and those things which were of a more general nature were entrusted to this parliament. I have no hesitation in believing that the framers of that legislation, after careful consideration and study, have given good reason for the disposition of the items in that Act. Under these circumstances I hesitate to undertake to overstep the bounds of the authority of this parliament and to enter the provincial sphere. The question of education and the question of the action of my own department has been cited here to-night, but I would point out to my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) that when the Agricultural Department undertakes to deal with agricultural subjects it is not dealing with what is technically called edhcation. Education as I understand it in the terms of the British North America Act, is the education of the youth of the country, and not the giving of information to the grown people who are engaged in our various industries, agriculture among the number. The department over which I have the honour for the moment to preside has not in any way undertaken the education of the young people of the country by means of schools or colleges. What it has done is to conduct experiments in agriculture and to place the results of these experiments before the people for their benefit. There is a well-defined difference between that sort of work and the education of the youth. I would say, further, that the work of the Department of Agriculture is very similar to the work of the association for the prevention of tuberculosis, and I,am, therefore, quite at one with the movement to have this government grant any reasonable request for circulating information calculated to check the spread of disease. I am glad to know that the provinces have fully recognized their responsibility in regard to hospitals or sanataria. Several of the provinces have already established these hospitals and my friend from Souris (Mr. Schaffner) has sent me photographs of a very beautiful and I am sure complete and well equipped sanatorium at Ninette, in Manitoba. I know that the province of British Columdia has established a sana-tarium and I think the province of Nova Scotia has done something of a similar character. My hon. friend from LTslet (Mr. Paquette) told us that the government of the province of Quebec has not yet established a sanatorium, but that it has appointed a commission to investigate tuberculosis and to furnish information as to how that province may best deal with this dread disease. The provinces, therefore, are meeting their responsibilities in this respect and I do not think it would be at all advisable for this parliament to overlap the work they are doing or to try to duplicate it. Let me say a word with regard to what we are doing in reference to the health of animals. Some hon. gentlemen have drawn the conclusion that we are spending much more money on the health of animals than we are for the health of the human being, but I would like to say here at once that every cent spent in Canada for the health of animals is really spent for the health of the human being. We are looking after the animals because we want to ensure that the human being may be certain that the meat he eats, the milk he drinks and the products of the animal which he consumes shall be wholesome. Of course, the regulations in regard to the treatment of animals for disease are very much more simple than they could

possibly be in the case of the human being, because, in the public interest, we can slaughter diseased animals where that becomes necessary. Of the money expended in the last few years in connection with the health of animals, about $700,000 has been paid as compensation for animals slaughtered, and that for the purpose of seeing that disease is not spread which is inimical to the human being. It is true that the Department of Agriculture deals with quarantine, but when you compare the money spent for the health of animals with the money spent for the protection of the health of the human being, you must eliminate from the former the large sums which are paid as compensation for the animals killed. Even in that view I reiterate that the money spent in connection with the health of animals is spent for the benefit of the health of the people of the country and not' primarily or essentially for the protection of other animals against disease. Let me say that I do not believe there is any other country which can to-day present such a clean bill of health for its domestic animals as Canada can. In this connection I feel it my duty to take up the cudgels in defence of the Canadian cow. There is a tendency abroad to lay pretty nearly all the tuberculosis in the country to tubercular milk. Well, I have made a good deal of investigation and I have studied the question carefully, and from the information I have been able to get I am prepared to say that not 10 per cent of the tuberculosis in Canada can in any way be traced to the consumption of tubercular milk. There is the tuberculin test which can be applied to animals and that will test the presence of tuberculosis in any form in any part of the animal, but we have shown conclusively from experiments that the milk from a tuberculous animal in numberless instances contains no active germ Of tuberculosis which could possibly communicate tuberculosis to any human being who drinks it. There is this unfortunate fact, however, in connection with the tuberculin test, and it is the chief weakness of the test, that while the test almost absolutely shows whether there is any tubercle in the animal it does not show where the tubercle is nor the extent of the tubercle, and especially it does not show whether the tubercle in the animal can affect the purity of the milk or on the other hand the presence of disease germs in it.
Under these circumstances, while the tuberculin test does place any animal that reacts to it under suspicion, and though that animal may have in its udder and in its milk the germs of tuberculosis which may infect the person consuming that milk, the fact that the animal reacts to the tuberculin test is absolutely no proof whatever that its milk will be dangerous to a person I Mr. FISHER.
drinking it. Personally, I would not drink the milk of any animal that reacted to the test because I would wish to spend my money rather upon safeguarding myself than in the purchase of cheaper milk that was not so safeguarded. At the same time it would . be the height of folly, and I think it is to-day a mistake for people to believe or expect that the animals should be slaughtered simply because they have reacted to the tuberculin test. I state this with a full sense of my responsibility in so doing. I say it because I have studied the question for many years and because I have had experience of the disease in my own barns and my own herds, and I have seen the effect of it in other herds. Also, I have been in charge for thirteen years of the experiments of the scientific veterinaries who have examined into this question continuously ever since I entered office as minister. I wish to say further that, at present, we are trying to find some method, some sensible, practical method, not too extreme, not unnecessarily severe on the owners of stock, by which we can deal with tuberculosis among cattle, among cows especially.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does not the minister think he should attach more importance to the danger of drinking milk that may be infected with tuberculosis? What does he make of the experiments of Senator Edwards? Senator Edwards took calves from cows affected with tuberculosis and, from the first, gave them pure milk from other cows, and, as I vmderstand the matter in discussing it with the senator, not in one case did he find the tuberculosis present in the young animal. Is it not likely that milk is one of the means by which the disease is transferred from the dam?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think the hon. member has misunderstood me. I said that personally I would not drink the milk of any animal that reacted to the tuberculin test. That animal is under suspicion. But I know, from abundant experiments, that the milk of a great many animals that react to the tuberculin test does not contain the germs of tuberculosis. If the milk does contain the germs of tuberculosis, of course it is-dangerous; but the fact that a cow reacts to the tuberculin test is absolutely no proof that her milk will contain tuberculosis germs. Do not let me be misunderstood. I do not wish people to cease trying to remove tuberculosis from the cows of the country. I think that every means ought to be taken to accomplish that object, so-long as we step on sure ground. But to undertake the slaughter of innumerable animals without being perfectly sure that their slaughter is necessary for the health of human beings would be folly and a wrongful waste of a great asset of the people of Canada.

I was going to say, when I was interrupted, that at a meeting of the North American Veterinary Association last summer, Dr. Rutherford, the chief veterinary officer of my department was present, and he secured the appointment of a joint committee of American and Canadian veterinary surgeons, which committee is to meet, I think, this week in Buffalo for the purpose of trying to elaborate a practical, sane treatment of cows for the purpose 'of minimizing tuberculosis in our herds. I hope and believe that a scheme will be elaborated by that body of men, probably the best experts on that question to be found anywhere, and that it will be able to present shortly to the department at Washington and to my own department a scheme for practical steps to further reduce tuberculosis.
Now, I began a few minutes ago by saying our herds were healthy, that we have not a very large percentage of cattle or swine in Canada affected by tuberculosis, and hardly any sheep so affected. We have had, for some years past, a very strict system of inspection of all the meat packing establishments in Canada which are engaged in the export trade. Our veterinary surgeons have carefully examined every animals carcass taken into these establishments, and the percentage of rejections and condemnations for tuberculosis is so small as to justify absolutely what I have said. I have not before me the exact figures, but my recollection is that in the case of cattle the rejections are less than two per cent, and in the case of hogs less than five per cent. The animals slaughtered in these establishments come in from all over the country, without any inspection before they arrive, and without any selection, and yet [DOT]only a few of them are condemned for tuberculosis. Every carcass in the slightest degree affected by tuberculosis is condemned. Under these circumstances, I think I am justified in saying that the animals of Canada are exceptionally healthy and that the danger of communicating tuberculosis through food is not great. I have further the opinion of doctors and others who have discussed it with me that not ten per cent of tuberculosis is contracted through drinking any milk in Canada.
Now, let me say one or two things in regard to the requests made of us. I think it was my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) who spoke of the good we could do in the way of registration and notification. That is a matter, I think, purely local and municipal, and we can hardly entertain it *cr deal with it. I am glad that in this debate there has been no suggestion, as there was in former debates on the subject, that
we should undertake to build or aid the building of sanatoria. It is true that years ago when this question came up I objected to our undertaking the work, and I am glad that the whole tone of the debate to-day has justified that stand. The whole debate to-day shows that the matter is now regarded as one coming within the domain of provincial authority.
I desire to pay a tribute to the high order of this debate. The medical gentlemen have given us a great deal of very valuable information, information which I think ought to be placed before the public. I do not think the association can do any better work than to distribute all over Canada copies of the ' Hansard ' containing this debate. My hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) interested me a great deal with the information he gave us as to what is being done in Germany. I will say this for the continental nations of Europe, that in dealing with the welfare of their people they are very thorough, they go to the root of things, and do not hesitate to pass rules and regulations which we would consider somewhat drastic, and perhaps which western peoples would not like to submit to. I believe this association has done a great deal in stirring up the people to the necessity of vigorous effort in combatting the disease of tuberculosis. I agree with the hon. member for Grey (Mr. Miller) that it is better that this work should be done by an association of citizens rather than by a department of the government. I cordially admit what the hon. member for Grey has said, that the association has spent their money wisely, carefully and economically. I congratulate the members of the association on their administration of the money that has been entrusted to them by parliament, and I have no doubt they will expend with equal wisdom and economy any further funds that may be granted them.
There is another point I would suggest, although it is a matter coming under the domain of the provincial authorities, and that is the problem of dealing with tuberculosis in public schools. That is a very serious problem indeed. It is certainly a hard thing to say that tubercular children must be excluded from the public schools. That cannot be done in any community without proper provision being made to secure to such children just as good an education outside the school as they could obtain within it. At the same time, it must be recognized that their presence is a menace to the health of other children, and as I say, it is one of the most painful problems that confronts us in connection with this disease. I believe, however, that in the erection and enlargement of our public schools, if more attention were paid to ventilation, more cubic air space were provided, as we know that plenty of fresh air

is extremely essential to the health of children, a great deal of danger would be removed, at any rate the danger would be minimized and, the general health of the pupils would be improved. Ill ventilation, over crowding, shutting out of the school room the cool fresh air of Canada, which is one of the best heritages we have, all these things contribute to the spread of tuberculosis among children.
Now if the House will bear with me, I would like to relate an experiment which we have been conducting with cattle, and it affords a lesson which might be of use to human beings. About four years ago the herd of cattle on the Nappan experimental farm contracted tuberculosis. It spread very rapidly through the barns, and in a few months practically all the animals were affected with tuberculosis. Dr. Rutherford wished very much to try an experiment with regard to the outdoor treatment of the animals. We brought the herd up here, and established them across the river in an isolated place nearby, where we kept them out of doors altogether for four years. Every animal was diseased when it came here. We added to the herd some other healthy animals, but no one of the healthy animals contracted the disease. Of the calves that were born to the diseased animals, born out of doors in healthy surroundings, and fed on their mothers' milk, not one was diseased. They are to-day healthy animals. I have no doubt whatever that the spread of tuberculosis amongst the dairy herds of this country is almost entirely due to the confinement in which these herds are kept, and that better ventilation of stables, byres more cleanly kept, with more sunshine and more light, would contribute more than anything else to the eradication of the disease from the herds. Of course these conditions are equally necessary, if not more necessary, to human beings. They are necessary in public buildings, they are necessary in private buildings, in schools perhaps first of all, and in all public buildings belonging to the government. One hon. gentleman spoke about what'we should do in regard to our public service. I sympathize with that view. The Civil Service Commission created a couple of years ago had that very question under consideration and no doubt in the near future an improvement may be made^ in that matter as regards the Civil Service. I will close by saying that I hope the House will pass this resolution unanimously. I can assure the House that the government is quite disposed to do all it can within its sphere in order to strengthen this campaign against tuberculosis.


George Halsey Perley: As no one else wishes to sneak, I may sav that I appreciate highly the way in which this resolution has been received. I need hardly say I had no Mr. FISHER.
intention of treating the British North America Act with disrespect, or lightly, in any way; certainly I desire to live up to it as much as any other member of this House. I was only arguing that _ what we wished to have done would not in any *way interfere with it, either technically or otherwise. With regard to sanatoria, and the remarks of the Minister of Agriculture five years ago, I simply call attention to the fact that the resolution of five years ago made no mention of sanatoria, it was merely an academic resolution.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: But the debate did.


George Halsey Perley: It was an academic resolution, but I think that certain hon. gentlemen mentioned the building of a sanatorium. I quite acknowledge that under the British North America Act it would not be wise for this government, at the present time, at all events, to take any steps in that direction. I do not ask for it. I am very glad that the government has accepted this resolution and I simply conclude with the hope, after the kind words the Minister of Agriculture has spoken on this subject, that we mav expect in the supplementary, estimates a reasonable increase in the grant for this important work.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. FISHER moved the adjournment of the House.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose the budget to-morrow?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The budget.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, December 14, 1909.