1909-02-01

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Sir Wilfrid Laurier presented the report of the special committee annotated to prepare and report with all convenient speed lists of members to compose the select standing committees of the House, which was, on motion, concurred in.

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Sir WILFRID LAURIER laid on the table the classification of certain departments of the inside Civil Service.

Hon.  A. B.@: AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 31) to prevent the payment or acceptance of illicit or secret commissions and other like practices. He said the object of this legislation is fairly well indicated by the title. It is proposed to enact that the payment or acceptance of illicit or secret commissions and practices of that nature shall be an offence punishable either by indictment or upon summary conviction, according to the gravity of the circumstances. The measure is one of general application. We have already upon the statute book, in the shape of sections in the Criminal Code, enactments against the receiving of secret commissions by agents in the employ of any Government in Canada or of any municipal corporation. But this legislation proposes to go further and make it criminal on the part of any employee to accept any secret commission in consideration of favours to be given at the expense of his employer. This legislation is in substance the enactment adopted on the subject by the Imnerial Parliament two years ago. The Bill as drafted is an adaptation of that legislation and simply proposes to adopt, for the purposes of this country the legislation which, in that respect is now on the Statute Book of Great Britain. The clauses of the Criminal Code, to which I have referred, will none the less have their application to transactions within their scope and which may have already taken place. The enactment now proposed will to some extent cover the same ground, and it is proposed to increase the incidence of punishment and to make offences of the general character I have described fall within the provisions of the Act. The Bill consists simnly of a clause defining the terms used in the proposed legislation and one declaring that every one who falls iii
within the description of the proposed statute is guilty of an offence and liable, either upon indictment or summary conviction, to the penalties proposed.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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Mr. JOHN BARR (Dufferin) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 32) to amend the Railway Act. He said this Bill is somewhat similar to the one introduced last session. * Its object is to facilitate the crossing of railways by telephones, telegraphs, watermains, viaducts, and so on. The difficulty under the present law is that permission must be asked from the railway company before any such crossing can be made. _ In the rural districts, the railway companies demand $5 for each crossing. In my opinion this is most unjust. If the parties refuse to pay the ?5, they must apply to the railway board. This involves the drawing and filing of plans and the employment of legal counsel and necessitates considerable delay and expense. We know that the railway commission is overworked, and the result is months' delay before the sanction of the board is obtained to any application of the kind. At present telephone companies, small and great, are being built throughout the length and breadth of the country, and are accomplishing considerable good by bringing the rural districts in close communication with the towns and villages; and it is unfortunate that they should be frequently hampered and delayed in their efforts by reason of difficulties and delays in crossing the railway tracks, besides being put to a great deal of expense through having to make application to the railway commission. By adopting this Bill, which provides that the railways cannot demand or receive any compensation from telegraph and telephone companies for the right to cross a railway track, we will relieve the railway board of a good deal of work. Another provision in this Bill is that application may be made to the station master within the jurisdiction, or of the most convenient station master; and if no action be taken by the railway company during fifteen days, the applicants may go on and cross the railway tracks. So far as watermains and viaducts are concerned, they must give fifteen days' notice and pay the expenses of the engineer who will examine the work. If this Bill be carried, it will lessen the work of the railway commission, and relieve the telegraph and telephone and watermata companies from the long delay and expense now unavoidable.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Hon.   WM@: PATERSON (for the Minister of Finance) delivered a message from the Governor General.
Mr. SPEAKER read the message as follows:
Government House,
Ottawa, February 1, 1909.
Gkey.
The Governor General transmits to the House of Commons estimates of sums required for the service of the Dominion for the year ending 31st March, 1910, and in accordance with the provisions of The British North America Act, 1867, the Governor Genaral recommends these estimates to the House of Commons.
On motion of Mr. Paterson, the message of His Excellency, together with the estimates, were referred to Committee of Supply-



WRITS FOR COMOX-ATLIN AND CAR-LETON.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: Before the orders of the day are called, I desire to ask the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Lau-rier) whether or not the writs of election for Comox-Atlin and Carleton have been issued.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I think they have, but I will give my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) a definite answer to-morrow.



PRIVATE BILLS.


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Bill (No. 9) respecting the Brandon Transfer Railway Company.-Mr. Turriff.
' Bill (No. 10) respecting Brazilian Electro Steel and Smelting Company, Limited.-Mr. Pardee.
Bill (No. 11) to incorporate the Canadian Western Railway Company.-Mr. Pardee.
Bill (No. 12) respecting the Collingwood Southern Railway Company.-Mr. Pardee.
Bill (No. 13) respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Pardee.
Bill (No. 14) respecting the Huron and Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Pardee.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN asked:: 1.	What progress has been made towards arriving at a settlement with the provincial governments with respect to the fisheries?
2.	Has Mr. Bastedo made any report upon the matters with respect to which he was appointed ?


Mr. BARR.: 3.	If so, what is the nature of his report and when will it be brought down?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Not much material progress has been made.
2.	Previous to accepting another position Mr. Bastedo made some reports regarding provinces visited.
3.	The reports were of a tentative nature, and under conditions obtaining in respect thereof, the present moment would not seem to be opportune for bringing them down.


LOBSTER-PACKING LICENSES IN NOVA SCOTIA.
Mr. SINCLAIR asked:: 1.	How many licenses to pack lobsters were granted by the Department of Marine and Fisheries in Nova Scotia for the year ending December 31, 1908?
2.	Referring to the returns received by the department on or before September 1, 1908, under the provisions of section 39 of the Fisheries Act, how many of said licensees failed to pack any lobsters during the said year?
3.	What is the name and address of each of the said licensees who failed to pack any lobsters during the said year; and the locality where the factory is situated?
4.	Did any of the said parties holding such licenses fail to pack lobsters for more than one year prior to September 1, 1908?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Two hundred and forty-two canneries were licensed.
2,	3 and 4. To fully answer these questions it will be necessary to correspond with the district inspector of fisheries, which is being done.
ICE-BREAKER ' MONTCALM/
Mr. PAQUET-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	Has the Minister of Marine taken into consideration a resolution of the Council of the Quebec Chamber of Commerce respecting the work of the ice-breaker ' Montcalm ' at Cap Rouge?
2.	Is it the intention of the hon. Minister of Marine to have the work of the ' Montcalm ' at Cap Rouge stopped?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Under consideration.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-MEN EMPLOYED AT TRURO.

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Mr. STANFIELD-by Mr. Herron

asked:
How many men, not on the regular staff, were employed at Truro on the Intercolonial railway during the months of September, October. November and December, 1908, respectively?	i
Hon. G. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals).: September, 107 men, 1,977 days, under Mr. Burpee; 1 man, 26 days, freight porter.
October, 164 men, 1,774 days, under Mr. Burpee; 1 man, 27 days, freight porter; 8 men, 8 days, erecting bridges in new yard under Mr. MacKenzie.
November, 130 men, 2,209 days, under Mr. Burpee; 3 men, 75 3-10 days, painter, car cleaner and carpenter under Mr. Joughins; 1 man, 25 days, freight porter.
December, 95 men, 1,590 days, under Mr. Burpee; men 110 2-10 days, painter car cleaner, carpenter and locomotive cleaner under Mr. Joughins; 1 man, 23 days, freight porter; 3 men, 27 days, reinforcing roof of engine house under Mr. MacKenzie.



THE ROSS RIFLE.

Mr. NORTHRUP asked:: 1- How many Ross rifles were accepted by the Militia Department in the year 1908?
2.	How many were returned to the Ross Rifle Company in that year?
3.	How many Ross rifles have been accepted up to date?
4.	How many have been issued to the (a) permanent corps, (b) militia, (c) mounted police ?
5.	How many Ross rifles are there now in store?
6.	How many of these have never been issued?
7.	What is the total amount of the payments to the Ross Rifle Company to date ?
8.	What claims for damages have been sent in for injuries received through the use of the Ross rifle?


Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia):: 1.	18,000.
2.	No rifles have been rejected as a whole during 1908. When a rifle did not pass inspection when first presented it was returned for correction, and then again presented for inspection.
3.	51,000.
4.	(a) 2,830.	(b) 6,574.	(c) 1,000.
In addition 3,861 rifles have been issued to rifle associations.
It may be noted that all target practice in the different camps of instruction, where service ammunition was used, was done with Mark II. rifle with Mark III. sights.
The exact number of these rifles used in each camp has not been stated in the camp reports, with the exception that at Charlottetown 100 were used for musketry training; Niagara, 500 were used for musketry training; Sussex, 600 were used for musketry training; Three Rivers, 200 were used for musketry training; Calgary, 100 were used for musketry training.
In these camps and in all others, excepting Kingston and London, arrangements were made to supply Ross rifles for target purposes to the different units as they reported at the firing point. All preliminary instruction in rifle shooting was given with the Ross Rifle.
At London and Kingston, where ranges were not available for service shooting, practice was carried on with gallery ammunition and the Lee-Enfield rifle used for the purpose. In these camps rifle exercises and instructions in musketry were given with the Ross rifle.
5.	38,719.
6.	28,661.
7.	$1,487,932.79. This does not include the sum of $3,931.25 progress payment on account of the manufacture of bayonets.
8.	Three claims for compensation have been received, viz.:
(a)	J. T. Seale, Eastman, Que., transport, $9.20; compensation, $15; total, $24.20.
The accident in this case was due to the rifle bursting, owing to an abnormal pressure of gas, the cause of which is not known. The rifle had also been tampered with, the ' bent 5 of the cocking piece having been filed away considerably. .
(b)	Sidney A, Fletcher, New Westminster, B.C., $500. This accident was caused by the rifle bursting, due to a defective cartridge.
(c)	D. St. Dennis, Slocan, B.C., $114.55. The accident was caused by the rifle bursting, due to a double bulleted cartridge.
Accidents have also occurred with the Lee-Enfield, notably at London, where the firer of the rifle was injured and the man next to him at the firing point killed. In this case the department paid the funeral expenses and also the bills incurred for medical attendance.



EMPLOYEES OF INTERCOLONIAL AT MONCTON.

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Mr. EMMERSON-by Mr. Ralph Smith-asked :
1.	Was Thomas Williams, formerly treasurer and accountant of the Intercolonial Railway at Moncton, superannuated ? If so, at what date did same take effect?
2.	What is the amount paid to him monthly or yearly as his superannuation allowance?
3.	Is he still continued in the employ of the said railway, and in what department; or if not now in the employ, up to what date was be so employed, if at all?
i.	What amount, if- any, has been paid him monthly, or yearly during such employment, in addition to his superannuation allowance, .and under what authority were such payments made, and were the payments made by vouchers? If so, what was the total amount of such payments to date?
5.	How many permanent employees or clerks on the Intercolonial at Moncton or elsewhere are paid by vouchers, what are their names and the amounts respectively, paid them during each month since the last session of parliament to the present date?
6.	When was the system of paying salaried or wage officers or employees sums in addition to their agreed and authorized salaries
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or wage by means of so-called voucher, first adopted by the Intercolonial Railway?
7.	At what date was J. R. Bruce, traffic auditor of the Intercolonial Railway superannuated, when did his superannuation take effect, and what is his allowance per month or per year?
8.	Is he still employed in the railway service? If so, is it proposed to continue him in the employ, for what period and upon what terms, how will he be paid and on what authority, and is it proposed to use the voucher method in his case?
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	Yes, by order in council dated 31st August, 1908, to take effect 1st September, 1908._
2.	His superannuation allowance is $1,782 per year.
3.	No; although he has been employed to January 18, 1909, by the general manager as special clerk, closing up certain matters in connection with the Grand Trunk arbitration proceedings. The preparation of a statement showing proportion paid by the railway companies, for the use of the Intercolonial stations, and in the conducting of one or two special investigations which required the services of a trained accountant.
4.	$76.50 per month, under authority of the general manager, by voucher, amounted to $338.08.
5.	Two; R. W. Chipman and N. H. Morton. Chipman was paid in July $100, August $100, September $100, October $100, November and December $100. Morton was paid July and August $79.84, September $75.43, October $80.04, November $75.52, December $79.46.
6.	Ever since the Intercolonial has existed it has been the custom to pay such amounts by voucher.
7.	Superannuated from the 1st January, 1909. Allowance, $884 per year.
8.	Upon representation made to the Minister, that Mr. Bruce would be placed in an unfortunate condition financially, his wife having broken, her leg and numerous other difficulties, which a few months more would terminate; it was felt that fairly full value would be secured from him in aiding his successor to clear up arrears of work, permission was granted to the general manager to continue him for a few months. He, of course, will be paid by voucher, the usual way in which superannuated men are paid,
i.e., the amount included in the superannuation, payment is deducted from the salary, the balance paid by voucher. The authority for such payment by voucher is section 24, chapter 17, Revised Statutes of Canada.



ASSOCIATED PRESS DESPATCHES.

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Mr. LENNOX-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	IIow many newspapers in Canada are contributing to the expense of the Associated Mr. EMMERSON.
Press despatches under the terms 7-8 Edward VII, Chapter 12?
2.	What will be the amount of their contribution between 1st of July, 1908, and 1st of March, 1909?	.
3.	What amount will be paid out of the consolidated. revenue fund during that period?
4.	Has the government assigned to any person the duty of keeping track of these despatches, with a view of ascertaining if they are of a character financially beneficial to Canada, and particularly to the industrial and producing classes?
5.	Are the despatches generally satisfactory to the government?
Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: 1.	Twenty-three newspapers.
2.	The estimated amount of the contribution of the newspapers for the period July 1, 1908, to March 31, 1909, will be about $7,312.50.	.
3.	There will be paid out of Consolidated Revenue Fund for the same period, pursuant to the statute, an amount equal to the actual contribution of the newspapers.
4 and 5. The action referred to has not been considered necessary. The position taken for the government in parliament, when the Bill resulting in this enactment was under consideration, was that the government should have nothing to do with the management of the service, and did not desire to say what should be the nature of the. service. The government then preferred to leave to the leading journalists of Canada to form their organization, select their correspondents, adopt their own regulations and make their own arrangements, that policy has since been adhered to.



R, S. FALCONER, STELLARTON, N.S.

Mr. RHODES asked:: 1.	What offices or positions, if any, in the service of the Department of Railways and Canals, or in any other department, have been held during the calendar years 1907 and 1908 by R. S. Falconer, of Stellarton, N.S.?
2.	What position does the said Falconer
hold at the present time?	..
3.	Between what dates and for what length of time did he hold such offices or positions, 'and what were his duties in respect of the same ?
4.	What is the rate and amount of salary
and what were the allowances paid or to be paid to him?	_	,
5.	What is the total amount paid to him prior to the 1st of January, 1909?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	Inspector of Glengarry water supply. Inspector of construction of agent's dwelling, Riversdale. Inspector of construction of sand house, Stellarton.
2.	None.
3.	Inspector of Glengarry water supply and construction of agent's dwelling, Riv-eisdale, from 25th May, 1907, to 30th No-

vember, 1907. Six months and five days. Inspector of sand house at Stellarton from 23rd April, 1908, to 31st October, 1908. Six months and seven days. His duties were looking after inspection of these works to see that they were carried out according to the plans and specifications.
4.	$3 per day.
5.	$981.



DREDGING THE NAPANEE RIVER.

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Mr. URIAH WILSON-by Mr. Blain- asked :
1.	How many times has the Napanee river in the Conntv of Lennox and Addington, been dredged since the year 1867?
2.	What were the respective years in which the said dredging was done, and what was the cost in each case?
3.	What proportion of the said cost was paid by the Dominion Government, and what proportion bv the municipalities interested?
4.	What was the date of the last survey made with a view to having the said river dredged ?
Hon. WILLIAM PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works) :: 1.	Five times.
2.	In 1873-74, $4,999.73 ; in 1875-76, $12,527.39; in 1877-78, $1,499.68; in 1884-85-86, $10,721.12 ; in 1892-93, $757.04.
3.	Of the expenditure in 1875-76, the town of Napanee contributed $3,000 and the united counties of Lennox and Addington $2,-
000.	The balance of the total expenditure was borne by the Dominion government.
4.	30th July, 1907.



DAILY MAIL ROUTE-SILLSVILLE AND THE PINES.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. URIAH WILSON-by Mr. Henderson-asked:
1.	When was the daily mail route started between Sillsville and the Pines, in the County of Lennox and Addington?
2.	Who is the mail carrier on the said route, and what remuneration does he receive?
3.	Who is the postmaster at Sillsville, and what salary does he receive per year?
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Postmaster General) :: 1.	On 16th November, 1908.
2.	Jonas Garrison; $180 per annum.
3.	The postmaster is Arthur W. Melow, the revenue of whose office for the year ending the 31st March, 1908, entitles him to a salary at the rate of $35 per annum, in addition to which, since 11th November last, he is being paid a forward allowance at the rate of $6 per annum.



DAILY MAIL ROUTE-ROBLIN AND FOREST MILLS.

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Mr. URIAH WILSON-by Mr. Henderson-asked:
1.	When was the daily mail route started between Roblin and Forest Mills, in the County of Lennox and Addington?
2.	Who is the mail carrier on the said route, and what remuneration does he receive per year?
3.	Who is the postmaster at Forest Mills, and what salary does he receive per year?
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Postmaster General):: 1 and 2. Prior to 1st May last Forest Mills post office was served tri-weekly by Mr. John Schamehorn, contractor for carrying the mails between Leinster and Overton, the contract price for the whole service being $88 per annum. On 1st May Forest Mills was granted an additional tri-weekly service from Overton by the same contractor at a cost of $62 per annum.
3.	The postmaster is Theophilus Jones, the revenue of whose office for the year ending 31st March, 1908, entitles him to a salary at the rate of $42 per annum.



DAILY MAIL ROUTE-DORLAND AND U. E. LOYALIST.

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Mr. URIAH WILSON-by Mr. Henderson-asked:
1.	When was the daily mail route started between Dorland and U. E. Loyalist Post Office?
2.	Who is the mail carrier on the said route, and what remuneration does he receive?
3.	Who is the postmaster at U. E. Loyalist Post Office, and what salary does he receive
per year?
Rodolphe Lemieux: 1 and 2. The United Empire Loyalist post office was established on 1st October. 1908, and is served daily by Mr. S. E. Gallagher, contractor for carrying the mails between Adolphustown and Napanee, at an additional cost of $100 per annum.
3.	Mark Trumpour, $35 per annum.



FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE.

Mr. ROBB asked:: 1.	Has the government any information regarding the present condition of the foot and mouth disease in New York and other States ?
2.	Has the embargo on horses coming from New York State to Canada been so amended as not to interfere with the daily interchange of traffic along the frontier ?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (for Minister of Agriculture):: 1.	The last information received from Dr. Melvin, chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry, was on the 2nd inst., when he stated that they had reason to believe that foot and mouth disease had been eradicated irt the United States, but that they were continuing inspection in the infected regions and taking precautions against the possibility of any infection remaining, the last diseased herd having been slaughtered on December 19. On or about the 18th of

January, however, according to press reports, the disease was detected in a number of cattle in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one of the quarantined counties. A suspected outbreak in a herd of cattle in Plymouth, Mich., was also reported through the press on January 25, this being also in a quarantined county. As far as I have knowledge there has been no new outbreak of this disease outside of the previously quarantined territory.
2.	Yes.



WINNIPEG BEACH PROTECTION PIER.

Mr. BRADBURY asked :: 1.	What has the Government done regarding protection pier at Winnipeg Beach?
2.	Is it the intention of the Government to proceed with the construction of the pier at once? If not, when?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to remove the obstruction in the Manitou Rapids, Winnipeg river, if so, when?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1 and 2. Plans and specifications have been prepared contingent upon certain work being performed by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and Boundary Park Realty Company. It has not yet been decided to go on with the work, but a decision will be come to before very long after we hear what the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Boundary Park Realty Company are prepared to do.
3.	The sum of $2,500 was voted last year for the purpose of removing obstructions in Manitou rapids; but so far no work has been done owing to the exceptionally high water in Winnipeg river.



TELEPHONE LINES ACROSS RAILWAYS.

Mr. BARR asked:: 1.	What is the number of applications made to the Board of Railway Commissioners for the privilege to cross railway tracks with telephone wires?
2.	What was the number of applications granted ?
3.	What was the number of applications refused ?
4.	What was the cause for said refusal?
5.	What was the date of each application?
6.	What date were the said applications granted ?
7.	What was the length of time from date of said application to the granting of same?


Hon. GEO  P.@: GRAHAM (Minister of Railways);
1.	2,411.
2.	2,328.
3.	None.
4.	Answered by number three.
5.	As the number of applications is very large (over 2,000) and all the fyles would have to be gone over, it would take some time to obtain the specific details and


Mr. PATERSON.: would have to be given in the form of a return to the House.
6.	Answered by number five.
7.	See answers to numbers five and six.



NEW POST OFFICE, TORONTO.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MACDONELL-by Mr. Blain-askedr
What is the cause of the delay in proceeding with the erection of the new post office long promised to the city of Toronto?
William Pugsley: Until a definite decision has been come to regarding the location of the new Union Station at Toronto, it is impossible to provide the postal facilities there which were in contemplation.



RAILWAY MAIL SERVICE INCREASES.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MACDONELL-by Mr. Blain-asked:
Is it the intention of the government to grant increases of pay to the transfer agents and other employees of the railway mail service, as recommended by the Civil Service Commission? If so when, and upon what basis ?
Rodolphe Lemieux: The matter is under consideration.



ALGOMA STEEL COMPANY-RAIL CONTRACTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked :
1.	What contracts for the making and delivery of steel rails, have been let by the government or the National Transcontinental Railway Commission, to the Algoma Steel Company, during the year ending January 2G, 1909 ?	,
2.	What were the quantities, price and terms of deliveries, and for what railways respectively, were the rails ordered?
3.	Has the government or the National Transcontinental Railway Commission, under consideration at the present time the granting of any further contracts to the Algoma Steel Company, for the manufacture and delivery of steel rails, either for the National Transcontinental Railway, or for the Intercolonial Railway?
George Perry Graham: 1 and 2. Contract dated September 17, 1908, for 15,752 gross tons, of which 13,741 tons is for delivery at thei junction of the Toronto and Northern Ontario Railway with the National Transcontinental Railway at $38.50 per ton, and 2,041 tons for delivery at West Fort William at $33.50 per ton.
3.	No; neither for the National Transcontinental or the Intercolonial Railways.



UPPER LAKE LIGHTHOUSE KEEPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked :
1.	Were any increases of salaries paid to the lighthouse keepers on Lakes Huron and Superior during the year 1908?

2.	If so, what was the ratio of increase, what lighthouse keepers participated in it, and when did the increase go into fore?
3.	During what month were the cheques containing the increase sent out to the lighthouse keepers?
Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Yes.
2.	The increases were not made as a percentage of previous salary. All the light stations in the Dominion were classified, and a certain salary attached to each class. Several keepers benefited in varying degree, depending on the amount of salary they were previously receiving.
3.	September and December, 1908.



FISH HATCHERY AT SAULT STE. MARIE.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked :
1.	What, if any, representations have_ been made to the government as to the necessity or expediency of establishing a fish hatchery at Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, or its vicinity, and when were such representations made?
2.	Has any action been taken ;upon such representations, and is it the intention of the government to establish a fish hatchery on Lakes Huron and Superior at Sault Ste. Marie, or in the vicinity thereof? If so, when will iwork be proceeded with?
Hon.  L. P.@: BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) -.
1.	A resolution has been received from the Sault Ste. Marie branch of the Ontario Fish and Game Protective Association, endorsed by the Town Council and Board of Trade of Sault Ste. Marie. Resolution received May 22, 1908.
2.	No definite action has been taken, but the question of establishing fish hatcheries at suitable points on Lakes Huron and Superior is receiving consideration. Work will proceed when final decision is arrived at.



ST. JOSEPH'S ISLAND WHARFS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	What was the amount appropriated for improvement, alteration or extension of wharfs at Marksville and Richards landing, on St. Joseph's Island, Ontario?
2.	What were the amounts actually expended on these two works, respectively ?
3.	Was the work done by contract? If so, wiho was the contractor in each case, and what was the contract price?
4.	If done by day labour, who was the superintendent appointed in each case, and at what remuneration?
5.	What were the dates of commencement and termination of the work in each case?
William Pugsley: Marksville.
1. $2,000.
2.	$1,691.09.
3.	By day's labour.
4.	E. Stubbs, $3 per day.
5.	Work commenced 23rd September, completed 31st October, 1908
Richard's Landing.
1.	$3,000.00.
2.	$1,398.46.
3.	By day's labour.
4.	Kenneth Robertson, $3 per day.
5.	Commenced 12th October, 1908, and still in progress.



WHARF AT MICHIPICOTEN RIVER.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	What, if any, part of the appropriation for the construction of a wharf at Michi-pieoten river, in the electoral district of West Algoma, ha.s been expended, in what manner, and under whose direction or supervision?
2.	What is the estimated cost of 'the proposed wharf at that point?
3.	What are the proposed dimensions of the
wharf?	,
4.	During what period was work proceeded with last year?
5.	Is it the intention of the government to advertise for tenders and proceed with the construction of this work by contract?
Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public W'orks):: 1.	Appropriation, $3,000. No expenditure.
2.	Estimated cost, $19,000.
3.	207 feet long outer fence, 22 feet wide and having a height of 20 feet.
4.	No work done last year.
5.	Tenders have been advertised for and received, hut no contract has yet been let. Matter at present under consideration.



WHARF AT SEA GULL.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	What amount has been expended by the Government in the construction of a whart at Sea Gull, on St. Joseph's Island, in the
province of Ontario ?
2.	Between what dates was the said work proceeded with?
3.	Was the work done by contract, or by day labour? If by contract, who was the contractor, and what was the contract price? If by day labour, who was the superintendent and what was his remuneration?
4.	When did the work cease during the fall of 1908?
5.	Is the wharf now completed? .
6.	What was the amount of the estimated cost of the work and the appropriation therefor ?
7.	What are: the proposed dimensions of the wharf when completed, and what depth of water will there be at the end of the wharf?
8.	What and by whom were representations first made to the government as to the necessity for the construction of this work?
Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$646.93.	'
2.	October, November and December, 1908.

3.	Day's labour: T. A. Armstrong; $3 per day.
4.	Work still in progress.
5.	No.
t 6. Work estimated to cost $5,000. If an ' L ' is added, additional cost would be $1,500.
7. Wharf to be 350 feet long by 20 feet wide, when completed. Should it be decided to add an ' L,' dimensions of same would be 80 feet by 30 feet at the outer end.
_ 8. By petition of residents of St. Joseph's island addressed to the Minister of Public Works.



SAULT STE. MARIE IMPORTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	What quantities of hay and other farm and garden produce were entered at the port of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, for home consumption during the fiscal year ended 31st of March, 1908?
2.	What was the value thereof, respectively, and what amount of duty was paid upon the same according to different classification?
William Paterson: Statement showing the imports at the port of Sault Ste. Marie during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1908, of hay, potatoes, and other farm and garden produce, showing also the duty collected thereon.
Articles.	Unit of Quantity.	Quan- tity.	Value.	Duty.
			$	$1 cts.
Hay	tons.	3,837	56,510	7,074 00Beans	bush.	57	92	14 25Pease	it	If	13	1 00Eggs	doz.	12,304	2,558	369 12Apples	
.	brls.	43	207	17 20Berries	lbs.	2,224	284	44 48


Cranberries ..: 

WHARF AT TENBY BAY.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	Were any public moneys of Canada appropriated for the erection of a warehouse upon the wharf at Tenby Bay, on St. Joseph's Island, in the province of Ontario ? If so, when and to what amount?
Mr. PTJGSLEY.: 2.	Was a warehouse constructed during last year upon the wharf at Tenby Bay? If so, when and at what cost, by whose order and
under whose superintendence?
3.	When was the said warehouse commenced, and when was it completed?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	The expenditure at Tenby bay was defrayed from the general vote for harbour and river improvements in Ontario.
2.	Warehouse was constructed by the department in autumn of 1908 at a cost of $399.58, under the superintendence of Foreman John Gibbs.
3.	Pay-lists show work to have commenced 23rd October and closed 14th November, 1908.



COST OF VOTERS' LISTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Lake-asked:
1.	What was the total cost of making up and revising the Dominion voters' lists for purposes of the last general election in the electoral district of (a) Thunder Bay and Rainy River, (b) West Algorna, (c) East Al-goma, (d) Nipissing, (e) Muskoka, (/) Parry Sound ?
2.	When was the work of registration commenced and when was it reported to be finished ?
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State):: 1.	The accounts for the above boards of registration are incomplete. All the claims are not yet in, and a number of these submitted are in suspense, awaiting further information before final settlement can be made.
The following amounts have been paid: Electoral district of-
(a) Thunder Bay and Rainy
River	$ 4,478 11
(b & c) East and West Algorna 3,367 43
(d) Nipissing	 1,888 14
(f) Parry Sound	 751 41

2. The only date at present available in connection with the work of registration is that of its completion, viz.: 23rd October, 1908.



LAKE WINNIPEG WHITE FISH.

Mr. BRADBURY asked :: Is it the .intention of the government to extend the close season for taking w.hitefisli now in force on Lake Winnipeg, to include all the waters of Playgreen lake?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: Yes.



CANCELLING OF FISHING LEASES.

Mr. BRADBURY asked :: 1. Is it the intention of the government to cancel the fishing leases granted to F. H.

Markey, of Montreal, on the Nelson, Hays and Itipon Pigeon rivers and their tributaries, and the Great Slave lake?
2.	Is it the intention of the government to cancel the fishing lease granted to J. K, McKenzie, of Selkirk, Manitoba, on Lesser Slave lake and Lake Athabaska?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to cancel the fishing lease granted to Archie Me-Nee, of Windsor, on James Bay?


Hon.  A. B.@: AYr.ESWOR.TH (Minister of Justice) :
1.	Yes.
2.	The subject is under consideration.
3.	That course has some advantages, but there is no fixed rule in the matter to be laid down as established.



BACON CURING INDUSTRY.

Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes, as intimated in reply to a previous question. See * Hansard ' of January 26, 1909, page 180.



RURAL MAIL BOXES.

Mr. BARR asked :: How many rural mail boxes were delivered in the county of Dufferin, ihow many were put up for use, and when does the government intend to deliver mail in said boxes?


Rodolphe Lemieux: 31 boxes were erected on the Mono Centre and Orangeville route, county of Dufferin, but the contractor, having refused to accept the amount offered by the department for making collections and deliveries therefrom, in addition to the payment to which he is entitled by reason of his contract for the carriage of the mails between these two points, the department has been obliged to notify the contractor o' the department's intention to terminate his contract, and to invite tenders for a new contract which will include collections and deliveries from the rural mail boxes which have been established on this route, or which may hereafter be established.



TOWERS IN DUFFERIN COUNTY.

John Barr: 


Mr. BEATTIE asked :: 1 How mamv hogs have been killed during each month from the 1st of November, 1907, to 1st of November, 1908 _ inclusive, bv the following packing companies?
The Laing Pack, and Prov. Co., Ltd., Montreal.	_	,	_ ...The Collingvvood Pack. Co., Ltd., Colling-wood.	,	_	. .
The Williams Dav.is Co., Ltd., Harriston.
The George Matthews Co., Ltd., Hull.
The George Matthews Co., Ltd., Brantford.
The George Matthews Co., Ltd., Peterboro .
The Whyte Packing Co., Ltd., Brantford.
The Canadian Packing Co., Ltd.. London.
2.	What was the number of hogs condemned including intestines, during the same period?
Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of
Customs). The department would like that question to stand as notice of motion for a return.
Tn stand as notice of motion.



PORT STANLEY PIER.

Mr. MARSHALL asked :: What is the latest date up to which the men doing work on the Port Stanley pier have been paid?


Hon WILLIAM PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works).: 31st December, 1908.
Wbat purpose does the government intend to make of the towers nantially built in the townships of Amaranth and Mono, in the county of Dufferin, Ontario, and when do they intend to complete said structures?


Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State):: 1.	The towers built in the townships of Amaranth and Mono, Dufferin county, are observing towers (triangular stations) for the purpose of the Geodetic survey of Canada.
2.	The said towers are completed.



COUNTY COURT JUDGE-MANITOBA.

Mr. ROCHE asked :: 1.	Is the government aware that a new judicial district has been proclaimed in the province of Manitoba?
2.	Is it the intention of the government in the near future to appoint a county court judge for this new district?
3.	Is it the policy of the government not to appoint a lawyer who has been practising in the, district to a judgeship in the same district?



FUNDED DEBT.

Mr. AMES asked :: Assuming that the funded debt redeemable n London on or before the lot October, 913, will amount to $106,027,216.70, or theie-ibouts, what will be the total of sinking !und applicable to the reduction ot tne


William Paterson: Approximately $35,664,000.



TIMBER LIMIT REGULATIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LALOR-by Mr. Blain-asked :
1. Are the regulations regulating sale, advertisement, cutting of timber, erecting saw mills, &c., the same as the regulations in tne year 1896 and prior to that time?
3. Were these regulations ever suspended? If so, for what period, and at what dates?
3. During the time of the suspension ot the regulations, how many acres of timber was disposed of by the government, to whom, and what was the average price per acre?
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State):: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by '2.'



MILITIA-ANNUAL TRAINING.

Mr. WORTHINGTON asked :: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to discontinue during the present year any part of the annual training of the active militia, either in the usual camps of instruction or at Petawawa? If so, how many men would he affected thereby?
2.	Are any payments in arrears for 1908 for drill, instruction, maintenance of arms or other claims? If so, why?


Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence) :: 1.	It is expected that camps of instruction will be held this year at all the places where such camps are usually held, including Petawawa. The details have not been prepared, but will be prepared and published in due course as usual.
2.	All claims received for command pay and drill instruction, care of arms, and other allowances to the active militia received to date have been paid.
There are, however, many claims for cur rent financial year which have not yet been received and are delayed pending completion of inspection of arms, equipment, &c., and the settlement of any deficiencies found to exist. It is anticipated that all these claims will be ready for payment by end of current financial year.
There are no outstanding claims for annual drill.
EASTERN TOWNSHIPS MILITIA CAMPS. Mr. WORTHINGTON asked:
1.	Has ia site been 'selected as a camp ground for annual training in the Eastern Townships?
2.	Will the Eastern Townships cavalry brigade or other regiments or artillery or infantry do their annual training during the coming summer?
3.	If so, has it been decided at what point the annual training will take place?


Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence):: 1. No.
2 and 3. Details of the camps have not I yet been prepared, and in any case it would be undesirable to publish them piecemeal.



ROSS RIFLE AT BISLEY.

Mr. WORTHINGTON asked :: 1.	Was the Ross rifle, Mark I., Mark II., or any other description of Ross rifle, used by the Canadian rifle team at Bisley last year in the regular team competitions? If not, why was it not used?
2.	Was a Ross rifle of any description used in the Bislev competitions, regular or extra


Mr. LALOR.: ,
series matches, by any member of the Canadian team, or any Canadian marksman engaging in such matches? If so, what was the name of the individual, and was he in the employ of the Ross Rifle Company?
3.	If so, what was the description of the rifle, and in what way does it differ from the Ross rifle, Mark I. and Mark II. both as to _ length of barrel and such expert accessories as wind gauges, globe or ring sites, spirit levels, &c.?
4.	Is this rifle a target rifle or a service rifle and will it be adopted by the government for the militia?
5.	Was this rifle manufactured in toto in the Ross rifle factory at Quebec?


Hon.   S@: The government has no official information with regard to the matters referred to in this question, but if the hon. gentleman will let this stand as a notice of motion, I will endeavour to procure the information.
To stand as notice of motion.



THE ROSS RIFLE.

Mr. WORTHINGTON asked :: 1.	Have any of the bayonets contracted for by the government with the Ross Rifle Company been manufactured?
2.	If not, when will the first delivery be made?
3.	Does the price mentioned in the contract include bayonets and scabbard?
4.	If so, what is the respective cost of each ?


Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Yes.
4.	The contract gives no separate price for bayonets and scabbard. For the purposes of the contract, a bayonet is not complete without scabbard.



WINTER NAVIGATION, TADOUSAC.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. GAUVREAU-by Mr. Lavergne- asked :
1.	Is it the intention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to give orders that the steamer 'Montcalm' be removed towards the Riviere du Loup, Fraserville wharf, in order to establish communication with Tadousac, for the purpose of winter navigation between the north and south shores below Quebec?
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 1. The government having established a ferry service between the north and south shore from Riviere Ouelle to Murray Bay, it is not considered expe-client to establish another winter ferry service a short distance below the present one.



G.T.P.-RESIGNATION OF MR. MORSE.

Mr. ARMSTRONG asked:: 1.	What action, if any, has the government taken to bring about the resignation of Mr. FEBRUARY 1, 1909
Morse, vice-president of tlie Grand Trunk Pacific?
2.	Is there any truth in the following statements made in the Toronto ' Daily Stair/ of January 23, 1909, which reads as follows:-
' It is said every contractor in the country was an open enemy of Morse. The manner of his departure was exceedingly dramatic. It is stated by some well-informed railway men that the government notified Mr. Hays that they could not get on with Mr. Morse and that he was persona non grata to them ' ?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	None whatever.
2.	(a) The government has no knowledge of such being the case; (b) expression of opinion on this point is beyond the purview of the government; (c) the government is not aware that any well informed railway-men made such a statement, but if they did it was wholly unwarranted.



EXPORTATION OP ELECTRIC POWER.

Mr. MACDONELL asked:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the persons or corporations at Niagara Palls, who were exporting power or fluid immediately prior to the time the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act (1907) came into force, and who have subsequently been brought under the operation of the Act by license thereunder, giving the quantity or amount of power or fluid, exported per year or per month (whichever is the most convenient form in which to make the answer), since receiving license under the Act?
2.	The names and addresses of all persons and corporations at Niagara Falls who have commenced the exportation of power or fluid since the said Act came into force, and who have been licensed thereunder, giving the amount or quantity exported, according to convenience aforesaid ?
3.	The names and addresses of the persons or corporations to whom all such power or fluid referred to in questions 1 and 2 is consigned, supplied or exported giving quantity to each?
4.	Is there any person or corporation at present exporting power or fluid, at Niagara Falls, without a license, under the said Act?
5.	For what period or periods of time are such licenses issued, and are they all uniform in this respect?
6.	Are such licenses, or any of them, renewable ? If so, for how long, and on what terms ?
7.	What system of inspection, if any, has the government provided, to ascertain that the said Act 6 and 7 Edward VII., Chapter 16, is being lived up to and complied with, by the persons or corporations who ishould properly come thereunder?
8.	Do all such licenses provide that the quantity of power or fluid exported shall be limited to the surplus, after the licensee has supplied for distribution to customers for use in Canada, power or fluid, equal to the demand in Canada?
9.	What means does the government adopt to ascertain that the Canadian demand for power or fluid, as aforesaid, is fully supplied,
before licensing the export of any power, or fluid to the United States?
10.	What revenue does the government derive from export duties on such power or fluid so exported, and what, if any, exemptions therefrom, has the government granted under subsection 3 of section 10 of the said Act?
11.	Does the government of the province of Ontario impose any tax on such power or fluid? If so, what does it amount to?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (for Minister of Finance):: 1.	'The Canadian Niagara Power Company,' Niagara Falls, Ont.
'The Electrical Development Company oi Ontario, Limited,' Niagara Falls, Ont.
'The Ontario Power Company of Niagara Falls,' Niagara Falls, Ont.
The total quantity of electrical energy exported by these companies since the coming into force of the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act until the 31st December, 1908, is 381 million kilowatt hours.
2.	No persons or corporations at Niagara Falls have commenced the exportation of power or fluid since the said Act came into force.
3.	'The Niagara, Lockport and Ontario Power Co.,' Buffalo, N.Y. A continuous supply of 18,000 horse-power.
'The Cataract Power Conduit Company,' Buffalo, N.Y., a continuous supply of 33,000 horse-power.
4.	No.
5.	For one year. Yes.
6.	All such licenses are renewable for one year, provided the licensees have complied with the requirements of the Act and regulations, and provided, also, that the Canadian demands for power are such as to admit of the export being continued.
7.	The regulations established by the Governor in Council provide that any officer authorized by the minister may have free access to any premises in which electrical energy is generated to inspect the contractors' books for the purpose of ascertaining the quantities and prices of the commodities sold and such other information as may be deemed necessary for the proper administration of the Act. '
The Chief Electrical Engineer of the department has visited all the plants referred to within the last twelve months.
B. No. A fixed quantity is stated in the license, but it is expressly provided therein that said license shall be subject to the regulations established by the Governor General in Council. These regulations provide that 'Any license issued hereunder shall be revocable at will by the Governor in Council if the licensee refuses or neglects to comply with any of the conditions from time to time imposed by the Governor in Council with regard to the supply and distribution of electrical energy, gas or fluid in Canada and, moreover, whenever such electrical energy, gas or fluid is required for
347 -

use; of purchasers in Canada any such license shall be revocable upon such notice to the licensee as the Governor in Council deems reasonable in each case.'
9.	By informing itself, through the before-mentioned officer, of the conditions of supply and demand.
10.	No export duties have been imposed bv the Federal Government.
'll. The department has no information as respects the tax imposed by the government of the province of Ontario.



RURAL MAIL ROUTES.

Mr. ARMSTRONG asked:: 1. How many established rural mail routes have boxes placed on them from which mail is not being collected, and the date when boxes were delivered on said routes?
_ 2. Where are said routes located, and what is the cause of delay in making arrangements on said routes ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: 1 and 2. Rural mail boxes were established on the dates mentioned on the following routes:
October 28. Mono Centre and Orangeville.
October 22. Picton and West Lake.
About November 15. Croton and Thames-ville.
The contractors in each case refused to accept the amount offered by, the department for serving these boxes in addition to the payment made to them under their contracts for conveying the mails between the points mentioned, and therefore the department has been obliged to give them the usual notice for cancellation of their contracts, so that new tenders may be invited to include not only the conveyance of the mails between the terminal points, but also the collections and deliveries from the mail boxes which have been erected, or which may hereafter be erected.



ICELANDER RIVER DREDGING.

Mr. BRADBURY asked:: 1.	What was the total cost of dredging done at Icelander river last fall?
2.	What was the total cost of work done at Gimli for the protection of the bank, and is the work completed?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$3,632.26.
2.	$4,017.46; work completed.



SELKIRK POST OFFICE.

Mr. BRADBURY asked :: 1.	What was the estimated cost of post office at Selkirk, Manitoba?
2.	How many tenders were received, and what is the name and amount of each tender ?
3.	Did the lowest tenderer get the contract?


William Paterson: 


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$25,000 for building alone.
2.	(a) Two.
(b) A. S. Brown and W. Garson. .$24,000 Gudjon Imgimundson and Stefan Bjornson	 25,283
3.	Yes.



EXPENDITURE ON WHARFS.

Mr. BARNARD asked:: What amount has been expended by the government since 1896 in construction and maintenance, respectively, of wharfs in (a) New Brunswick, (b) Nova Scotia, (c) British Columbia?


William Pugsley: The details are as follows:



NOVA SCOTIA.

[Stage Direction]
Construction.	Repairs.	Total	1896.. ..	.. $ 10,496	73	$ 10,753	36	$ 27,250	091897.. ..	.. 22,989	52	21,086	51	44,076	031898.. ..	.. 37,858	83	35,634	47	73,493	301899.. ..	.. 61,526	34	33,197	99	94,724	331900.. ..	80,003	85	44,667	25	124,671	101901.. ..	.. 151,445	44	60,410	72	211,856	161902.. ..	.. 74,709	10	6,746	58	81,455	681903.. ..	.. 83,351	19	11,910	92	95,262	111904.. ..	.. 183,847	88	71,103	46	254,951	341905.. ..	.. 314,335	15	68,450	19	382,785	341906.. ..	49	36,265	20	378,800	691907.. ..	.. 194,832	57	42,797	67	237,630	241908.. ..	.. 245,997	90	65,874	21	311,872	11Total..	.. $809,929	99	$508,898	53 $2,318,828	52

[Stage Direction]
Construction.	Repairs.	Total	1896.. ..	.. $ 4,706	67	$ 10,113	07	$ 14,819	711897.. ..	.. 7,284	08	15,817	60	23,101	681898.. ..	.. 15,621	51	7,698	96	23,320	471899.. ..	.. 10,459	81	25,272	23	35,732	041900.. ..	.. 6,981	44	39,030	82	46,012	261901.. ..	15	53,855	33	100,301	481902.. ..	.. 44,710	90	16,005	19	60,716	091903.. ..	.. 30,900	68	7,620	51	38,521	191904.. ..	.. 88,908	10	33,604	87	122,512	971905.. ..	.. 165,812	58	19,832	96	185,645	541906.. ..	.. 240,444	97	4,946	48	245,391	451907.. ..	.. 140,533	19	9,791	68	150,324	871908.. ..	.. 110,557	35	21,562	55	132,119	90Total..	.. $913,367,	CO |	$265,152	25 $1,178,519	68

[Stage Direction]
1R96 .	Construction. ... $ 24,697 17	Repairs.	Total. 24,697 17 22,982 08 89,664 721897.. . 1K9R..	... 19,423 16 . .. 89,664 72	3,558 92	1899.. .	. .. 60,604 62	10,284 04	70,888 661900.. .	. .. 53,931 27	1,6S7 60	55,618 871901.. .	. .. 89,058 13	3,850 17	92,908 301902.. .	. .. 173,113 69	7,831 42	180,945 111903.. .	. .. 71,822 99	26,725 49	98,548 481904.. .	. .. 63,922 41	30,663 92	94,586 331905..	. 1906..	.	. .. 95,020 64 . .. 97,598 34	9,892 71	104,915 35 97,596 34 82,091 661907.. .	. .. 74,666 05	7,425 61	1908.. .	. .. 173,793 55	11,418 47	185,212 02
Total.... $1,087,314 74 $113,338 35 $1,200,653 09

George Henry Barnard: -
1.	Did the government nse its inflnence, as provided for in article 9 of the terms of union with British Columbia, in any way to secure the continued maintenance by the imperial government of the naval station at Esquimalt, either before, after, or at the time the said naval station was abandoned?
2.	If the answer to the above question be in the affirmative, in what way was such influence used?
3.	Has the naval station at Esquimalt been taken over by Canada.
4.	Has any arrangement been made for the taking over of such station?
5.	Has any expenditure in connection with the said naval station been authorized by the government of Canada, or to the knowledge of the government of Canada, by the imperial government? If so, to what amount, and for what purpose?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: (1, 2, 3, and 4) Negotiations are in progress with the Imperial Government for the transfer of the Naval Station at Esquimalt to the Canadian Government.
(5) No.



HUNGRY BAY DIKE.

Mr. ROBB asked:: Is it the intention of the government to make such repairs and improvements to the dike along Hungry Bay, Lake St. Francis, as will insure the prevention of floods on farm lands adjoining the lake?


George Perry Graham: It is the intention of the Government to perform the further work on the dike at Hungry Bay, which, it is hoped, will bring about the desired result.



MUTILATION OF ENVELOPES.

Mr. ARMSTRONG asked:: 1.	What means have been taken by the Post Office Department during the past year to remedy the constant mutilation of envelopes passing through the mail?
2.	Has the government received complaints regarding the management of the post office at MacKay, Ontario, and the condition and delivery of mail at that place? If so, what is the nature of said complaints and what action has been taken to improve the condition found there?


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Postmaster General):: 1. No evidence has been submitted in this department to indicate that there is any constant mutilation of envelopes passing through the mails, nor is there any reason to believe that such cases are at all frequent. Complaints are occasionally received as to the damaged condition of mail matter, but upon investigation it is generally found that the damage is due to
the fact that the paper used in the manufacture of the covers in which such matter is inclosed is of inferior quality, and not sufficiently strong to resist the ordinary friction and pressure which it must sustain by coming in contact with other mail matter during course of post.
2. There is no post office in the Dominion known as ' Mackay.'



BRITISH COLUMBIA PENITENTIARY-ESCAPE OF CONVICTS.

Mr.  J. D.@: TAYLOR-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	Has the government been made aware of the escape of a convict known as Bill Miner, together with three companions, from the British Columbia Penitentiary? If so, what was the date of such escape?
2.	Was the report of such escape made to and received by the Department of Justice?
3.	When and how was the report, if received, acknowledged ?
4.	If such report was received, was any reward offered for the recapture of these convicts? If so, what was the amount and the date of publication of the offer in British Columbia P
5.	Had the department any knowledge or communication from outside the penitentiary with the convict Miner prior to his escape? If so, was such communication by authority granted any officer of the department at Ottawa ?
6.	Has the attention of the Minister of Justice been drawn to statements in the press that the officer in charge of the British Columbia Penitentiary at the time of the escape has it in his power and has the inclination to make sensational disclosures in this connection?
7.	If so, is it the intention of the government to ^ take steps to bring out any disclosures in the power of the former deputy warden to make?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice):: 1.	Yes; 8th August, 1907.
2.	Yes.
3.	Report was made by telegram, received ori 9th August, stating that ' Four convicts had escaped,' and by a further telegram, received at the department 12th August, stating that ' Bill Miner was among those gone.' On 17th August, a telegram was sent to the warden that detailed reports were anxiously awaited. Report by letter was received on 19th August and acknowledged by letter of 21st August.
4.	Yes. On 12th August the minister instructed that a reward of $500 should be offered for Miner's recapture, and printed notices of such reward were issued from the office of the Commissioner of Dominion Police on 14th August. When such notices first reached British Columbia the department is not able to say.
5.	No.
6 & 7. Only by an item which appeared in several newspapers published on 29th

January, 1909, stating that the officer who was in charge of the penitentiary at the time of the escape was in a position to make disclosures with regard to the matter. The Inspector of Penitentiaries at once wrote to to the former deputy warden asking him for a statement of any information in his possession which he had not already made known to the department.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-RUNNING RIGHTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EMMERSON-by Mr. Ralph Smith-asked :
1.	Has the government or any member thereof, or any department of the government, since the last session of parliament, received from any party or parties, corporation or corporations, any application, communication or proposal, verbal or in writing, relating to the granting by the government, or by any department thereof, of any haulage or running rights or privileges to any railway corporation, upon or over the Intercolonial Railway, between St. John and Halifax, or between any other points on the said railway?
2.	If so, what was the nature and character of such application or applications, communication or communications, proposal or proposals, and at what date were they respectively made or received, and if any such were in writing, will the government place a copy of the same respectively, upon the table of this House?
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	Yes.
2.	The government has no objection to placing a copy on the table.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-BRANCH LINES.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EMMERSON-by Mr. Ralph Smith-asked:
Has the government or any member thereof, or the Department of Railways and Canals, at any time received from the government of New Brunswick, a copy of a report or rereports of the commissioners appointed by that government under the authority of the legislature of that province, to examine and inquire into the conditions and circumstances relating to the so-called branch lines of railways in that province connecting the Intercolonial Railway, and to report thereupon? If so, will the government have a copy of same placed upon the table of the House?
George Perry Graham: There is in the department a copy of such a report. There is no objection to laying it on the table.



MEASUREMENT OF POTATOES.

Mr. MACDONELL asked:: 1. Is there any statutory or other governmental requirement as to the quantity, either by measure or by weight, of potatoes per bag, when sold by the bag to the public?


Mr. AYLESWORTH.: 2.	If so, what means does the government take by inspection or otherwise to ensure the carrying out of the law? [DOT]
3.	Is the government aware that potatoes are sold to the public throughout the country by the bag varying anywhere from 65 to 80 pounds to the bag?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (for
Minister of Trade and Commerce):
1.	By chapter 85 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906, section 337, potatoes in con-tiacts for the sale and delivery-a bushel shall be determined by weighing unless a bushel by measure is specially agreed upon, and the weight equivalent to a bushel of potatoes shall be 60 pounds.
By section 338, in the province of Quebec, when potatoes are sold or offered for sale by the bag, the bag shall contain at least 80 pounds.
2.	The law is intended to be carried out by municipal market inspectors.
3.	No, but dealers evading the Act are liable to prosecution.



MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.

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For a copy of all orders in council, reports, correspondence, deeds, conveyances, regulations, conditions and other documents rc'-lat-ing to (a) the grant or conveyance to the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada of a portion of Major Hill Park, so called, for the site of an hotel, or touching the use or purpose for which the said conveyance was made or proposed; (b) the grant or conveyance to the said company or to the Ottawa Railway Terminals Company or to any other person or corporation of any lands in or adjoining the city of Ottawa for the purpose of or in connection with the building of a station at Ottawa or for other railway purposes. -Mr. Borden.
For a return showing what persons have been appointed, transferred or promoted, respectively, since July 1, 1908, in the various departments, coming under the operation of the Civil Service Act of 1908; the positions and salaries of such persons as have been transferred and promoted at the time of the change; the positions and salaries at present of all who have been so appointed, transferred or promoted, and which of these appointments, transfers or promotions were made in accordance with the present Civil Service Act.-Mr. Foster.
For a return showing what lands, at what price, and to what persons or corporations have been sold along the route of the Grand Trunk Pacific for station, terminal or town site purposes.-Mr. Foster.
For a return showing what disposition^has been made in detail of the vote of $25,000 under Miscellaneous, for seed grain in Alberta and Saskatchewan.-Mr. Foster.
For a return showing the total cost of the Royal Mint to December 31, 1908; the total expenses of Royal Mint for the calendar year 1908, (a) for additions and improvements, (b) for maintenance, (c) for salaries, (d) for bullion copper, silver and gold respectively;

the amount of copper, silver and gold coinage that was struck during that time; and the net profit on each kind of coinage.-Mr. Foster.
For a return showing what sums of money have been paid to each of the several holders of stock in the Quebec Bridge Company on account of stock, bonus and interest, respectively ; and what amount remains to be paid and to whom.-Mr. Foster.
For a return showing the number of applications made to the Board of Railway Commissioners for the privilege of crossing railway tracks -with telephone and telegraph wires and with water mains, each, over the said period from February 1, 1904, to the 1st January, 1908; the total number of applications granted over said period; the total number of applications refused; the date of each application; the date each application was granted; the length of time from the application to the granting of same; and what time should elapse before the board should give its decision.-Mr. Barr.
For the production of all original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the Interior in respect of timber berth No. 1122, and that the same he laid on the table of the House, said papers not to he part of the archives of this House, but to he returned by the Clerk to the Department of the Interior after inspection.-Mr. Campbell.
For a return showing:
1.	The total amount expended on public works by this government in the .riding of Bonaventure prior to the general elections of 1900.
2.	The total amount expended by the government in this riding; (a) on public works; and (b) in aid of railways and other undertakings since _ said general election, and the estimated additional amount .required; (a) to complete these public works; and (b) to meet the subsidies or grants in add of railways or other undertakings.
3.	The various public works undertaken by the government in this riding between the general election of 1896 and the general election of 1900, the dates when the several works were undertaken, whether they were let bypublic advertisement, tender, and contract, or how otherwise, and the sums of money, stated separately, expended upon these works prior to the election of 1900.
4.	Which of these works were completed and which of them remained uncompleted at the date of the election in 1900.
5.	The sums of money, stated, separately, expended in o,r towards completing these works since the said election of 1900, and the dates of expenditure.
6.	The various public works undertaken and carried on by the government since the general election of 1900, the dates when the several works were inaugurated <or commenced. the sums of money, stated separately, expended upon these works, and the estimated amount required te complete such of these works as have not been completed: and showing whether these works .were done by .tender or contract, or how otherwise.
7.	The moneys granted by the government by way of subsidy aid to railways or other undertakings in said riding since the general election of 1900, the sums of money paid under
these grants and the estimated amount required to meet future payments.
8.	The public works commenced and the money obligations incurred and moneys expended for public works within said riding of Bonaventure during the month of October last.-Mr. Lennox by Mr. Sproule.
A copy of all correspondence .between the Surveyor General's Department or Department of Indian Affairs and the late Mr. Vaughn, D.L.S., covering his instructions to survey the .parish of St. Peters, St. Clements and St. Peters Indian Reserve; together with Mr. Vaughn's correspondence, &c.; of all correspondence between the Department of the Interior and Mr. H. M. Howell, commissioner to investigate Indian claims on said reserve; of the report of Mr. Rothwell, law .clerk of the Department of the Interior, on the St. Peter's land claim; of the itemized account of Fred. Heap, for services rendered during the investigation, and instruction to him from the departments of the Interior and Indian Affairs.

Mr. Bradbury.
For a return showing the amount of gold, silver and copper coins manufactured by the branch of the Royal Mint in Canada, and the amount of said coin not disposed of since it commenced operation up to January 1, 1909.
2.	How much silver in its crude state has been offered for sale to the management of the Royal Mint from Canadian mines in the year 1908, and what quantity has been accepted.
3.	What reason the government gives for not purchasing .all the silver in its crude state that is offered?
4.	The system used in deciding from whom
to make purchases?	.
5.	How many Canadian mines have sold silver to the government, the names of said mines, and the quantity purchased from each. -Mr. Armstrong.
For a return showing the tenders called for by the Department of Railways and Canals for 144 miles, more or less, of wire fencing during the summer or fall of 1908, and the advertisements or circulars calling for same; how many tenders were received and from whom; how the contract .was let, at what price and to whom; the quantity of wire fencing purchased by the Department of Railways and Canals during 1908, by tender or otherwise, and the prices paid per mile.-Mr. Geo. Taylor.
For a return showing the total amount received by the Winnipeg 'Free Press' from all the departments of the government from July, 1906, to January 1, 1909, specifying amount each year.-Mr. Herron.
For a .return .showing rwhat operations, including .all expenditures, were carried on last year under the fishing leases granted to F. H. Markey, of Montreal, for Great Slave lake, Nelson and other .rivers; J. K. McKenzie, of Selkirk, for Lesser Slave and Arthabaska lakes; Archibald McNee, for parts of James bay; Coffey .and Merritt, Cedar lake; the Capital City Packing Company, limited, and the William Hickey Company, limited.-Mr. Bradbury.
For a return showing the names of the 85 temporary clerks formerly paid out of civil government contingencies who .have been classified under section 7 of the Civil Service
[Stage Direction]


Act since September 1, 1908, and placed in the third division, subdivision B; the position filled by each at the time of classification and the salary paid, the length of service, the age and what examination has: been passed: the position to twhioh assigned 'under the classification and the salary attached; the names of the persons appointed to the Civil Service since September 1, 1908, under section 47 of the Civil 'Service Act, the positions to which appointed, the date of appointment, and the salary attached.-Mr. Foster.

Mr. A. C. BOYCE (West Algoma) moved:: For a return showing all importations of steel bars, steel ingots, rolled iron and steel, steel rails and structural steel, into the Dominion of Canada, by months, since the 31st day of (March, 1908, and up to the 31st January, 1909, showing (a the quantity imported; Ob) the country from which imported; (c) port of entry; (d) the value of the imports; and (e) the amount of duty paid thereupon.


William Paterson: _My commissioner informs me that this will be a very much longer return than the hon. gentleman can possibly desire. I do not know whether it would be better for him to drop it and take another return that would be available. He could not get this return before the end of the session.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: There was a memorandum brought down which gave what I wanted down to 31st March, 1908. All I ask is that it should be extended down to the 31st January, 1909. The statement is a very short one, containing only two pages. It was handed the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) by the hon. minister, and all I ask is that it should be extended to date.


William Paterson: Was that return as comprehensive as this motion ? Do you want me to take in all these steel bars, steel ingots, rolled iron, &c. ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: No, not if they were not in that return. All I want is that return extended.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That in the opinion of this House it is advisable to appoint a select standing committee on natural resources who shall have authority to inquire into and consider and report upon all matters appertaining to the conservation and development of the natural resources of Canada, including fisheries, forests, mines, minerals, waterways and water powers, and to whom may be referred from time to time any report, document or matter touching the subject which they are appointed to consider.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no objection to my hon. friend going on with his motion, but I do not think the government
can close the debate on it to-day.


Robert Laird Borden: My remarks will not be very lengthy. So far as the exact wording of this resolution is concerned, I shall be very glad indeed to accept any suggestion from the government or any hon. member of this House. My object is to point out that public interest in the conservation and development of the great natural resources of this country might be stimulated by action of parliament. We have at present a committee on agriculture. That committee has engaged for the most part in thoroughly non-partisan work and work which has been of great advantage to the people. We thoroughly realize that agriculture must be the principal basis upon which the future wealth of this country depends ; but that consideration should not blind us to the further fact that we have, outside of agriculture, in the fisheries, forests, mines, minerals, waterways and waterpowers of this country, very great resources, the extent of which we do not at present realize, and the development and conservation of these are of very great importance to the people.
Now, in speaking of ' development ' and ' conservation ' I believe that these two words should be the watchwords of the country with regard to its natural resources. Conservation does not mean nonuser; on the contrary, it is consistent with that reasonable user of these great resources 'which is absolutely necessary for their development. And, on the other hand, development does not imply destruction or waste; it ought not to imply destruction or waste, but these great resources should be both developed and conserved, so that they may be of the greatest possible advantage to the present generation and may also be handed down as a continuing heritage to those who come after us in the work of upbuilding this Dominion and the British empire.
We have had a great many stimulating addresses throughout the country on the importance of these great resources. One might expect that the parliament of Canada would be one of the great forces in awakening public interest in our resources, and the consideration of means by which the development and conservation of these resources should be carried out. But owing, I believe, to some extent at least, to the fact that we have had no committee of parliament specially charged with the consideration of our natural resources, parliament has not taken the initiative to any very considerable degree, and the stimulus of public interest and public attention in respect of these matters has come to us almost altogether from outside sources. I

do not desire to put out of sight the most excellent work which the Canadian Forestry Association has done in awakening public interest in our forests. Nor do I desire for a moment to put aside consideration of the forestry congress or conference called by the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) some three years ago, which I had the privilege of attending, and which, I think, did very good work in awakening public interest in this matter. I think the Prime Minister, at that time, announced that at some future date a further conference or congress of the same character would be called. I have no doubt that the effect of that meeting was to stimulate public interest and to educate the public in appreciation of these great resources, and in that way to assist the object which we are all interested in accomplishing. Nor do I put to one side the work which has been accomplished by the forestry branch of the Department of the Interior. I know that that branch has been established only a short time ; I know that it has not yet had an opportunity to accomplish the very great work which has been accomplished in the United States of America by the forestry service presided over by Dr. Pinchot. I have had, during the past three or four years, the privilege of receiving from the forestry service of the United States a number of the publications which they issue from time to time. If I brought them all here and laid them on the table of the House-and I do not suppose that I have a complete set-they would make a pile a foot or a foot and a half high. I have brought a few, which will show that these publications are of a most practical, interesting and varied character. An example is one published in 1908, called ' The Use Book,' containing almost a complete manual of the work which the Forestry Service of the United States accomplishes, giving directions of an extremely interesting and useful character to the people who may desire to solicit the co-operation of the United States Forestry Bureau. There are a number of pamphlets of a thoroughly practical character issued to the farmers and others throughout the country. For instance, ' Practical Assistance in Tree Planting,' ' How to Grow Young Trees for Forest Planting,' * How to Transplant Forest Trees,' ' Progress of Forestry, 1905,' 'Forest Planting Leaflet '-these are issued in very great numbers, instructing farmers and others interested how transplanting should be done-' Consumption of Pulpwood in the United States,' ' Lumber Cut of the United States, 1906,' ' Wood Used for Pulp, 1905,' and so on in great variety and giving a vast amount of useful information. I desire it to be thoroughly understood that I refer to this not as casting any reflection on the work of the forestry branch of the Department of the Interior. I believe that the 124
officials engaged in that branch are doing the best they can. They have been engaged in the work only a short time, and, while it is not practicable to go to the Forestry Branch of Canada and obtain all the information that is available to one who consults the publications of the Forest Service of the United States, I have no doubt that that condition is being remedied as rapidly as possible, and that we shall have i-n Canada, in the near future, a Forestry Bureau which will give the same information, the same evidence of active and aggressive work in this connection as is given by the Forestry Service of the United States under the very able presidency of Dr. Pinchot, who spoke in this city not long ago upon these subjects.
I would say, in that connection, that the attention of the people of the United States has been called very thoroughly to the importance not only of the development but of the conservation of their natural resources. I do not know that I can do better, in order to icall the attention and awaken the interest of our own people in this matter, than to quote a few words from the very able and interesting address which Dr. Pinchot delivered in this city on the occasion of his last visit. He came, as I understand it, to bear a message from the President of the United States to His Excellency the Governor General and the right hon. leader of the government inviting the co-operation of this government in a conference or congress to be held in the capital of the United States, the delegates to include not only representatives of the United States, but also representatives of Canada and Mexico, in order that the people of the entire continent, through their accredited representatives, might consider methods of co-operation in this work of conservation of the natural resources of the continent. I do not know when that convention is to be held, but the announcement was made, on behalf of this government on that occasion, that the government of Canada proposed to send representatives to the meeting. I was very glad indeed to hear that announcement, and I am sure that the right hon. Prime Minister and his colleagues may count upon the co-operation of the members on this side in this work which has already been attended with such beneficial effects in the United States. Now, going back to Dr. Pinchot's address, I desire to quote a few words from it. Speaking of the steps taken in the United States towards the conservation and development of their great natural resources, he said:
The appointment of" a waterways commission was the first step. The second was the great convention of governors of States in Washington last May, at which all the States were represented, at which for the first time the attention of the nations was called to the waste going on. The next step was a meeting

of the National Conservation Commission at which the governors of half the States were present and delegates from other States, and at which both the outgoing president and the incoming president attended, and spoke, the latter being the chairman, and committing the new administration thorougliy and confidently to the policy of conservation left by the old administration; so that we know that in the United States, for four years more at least, this attempt to carry over for our children some of the things we received from our forefathers is going to continue. The first piece of work the National Conservation Commission did was to prepare an inventory of the national resources of the country, a somewhat rough and ready one, but so far as 1 know this is the first time that any nation has toted up its balance sheet and attempted to get an approximate knowledge of its supplies of natural resources. In other words, we have taken stock in the ordinary way in which any prudent man takes stock of what he has, so that we may inform ourselves of what we have, because we are to depend mainly upon ourselves for our supply hereafter. We are beginning to realize that; and, like a man cast away in a boat at sea, we are beginning to find out how Jong our water and food will last, and what we ought to do to save them. We learned a great many very striking facts. For example, we discovered (hat a preventable waste in our coal supplies amounts to some $300,000,000 every year; that if we go on increasing the use of them at the present rate, they will probably he gone by the middle of the next century-a long time perhaps, and yet not long in the life of a nation; that our iron supplies, which are just as necessary as our coal-the high grade ores-will be gone by the middle of this century; and that our oil and gas supplies will probably he gone by the middle of this century. We found that our lauds are being washed into the sea at the rate of 800 million cubic tons per year-that our farmers have been losing over $500,000,000 a year from easily preventable soil erosion, $130,000,000 a year from Injurious animals, and two or three times that amount from injurious insects and other forms of preventable waste; that some of our public lands were being disposed of in such ways that the number of homes on the lands were not being increased, which is the real test; that we are cutting out forests three and a half times faster than they are being produced; and that our forests are only growing at the rate of twelve cubic feet per acre per annum when they might easily grow at the rate of forty,-which shows the great loss of wood material that might be made but that is not being made. We found that of every thousand feet of lumber standing in the forests only a little over 300 feet gets into use; that the waste in logging, in milling, in seasoning, in working up afterwards, used up from the standing trees all hut about 310 board feet for every thousand hoard feet standing in the woods. And a very large part of that waste is preventable. We found that the reasonably available water-powers in the country at the present time would move every railroad train, every trolley oar, every wheel and every spindle, light every house, and answer every use of power in the country. That is to say, if our vast supplies of coal were burned up, Mr. E. L. BORDEN.
they might easily to a great extent be replaced by the use of our water-powers which are at present largely going to waste. We found that our water-powers were in process of being monopolized by two or three great companies-that our water-powers, east and west, south and north, were being acquired as rapidly as those wise and far seeing men could get hold of them, and were thus in danger of being monopolized when our coal supplies were either exhausted or so depleted as to have greatly risen in price, in the hands of one of the most far reaching and oppressive monopolies that has ever existed on the face of the earth. In any country where fuel is scarce, as in California after the oil is gone, every source of power, so far as men of science know at present must come from the streams; and when that time comes, every railway train and trolley car will be run by electric power from water, every house lighted and heated, every gallon of water pumped for irrigation, every bit of manufacture, every bit of printing will be done by electric power from water. At every point the average citizen will come into daily contact with the monopoly that controls the water-power if it is allowed to pass beyond the position of government regulation. So that we feel it strongly that one of the great problems of conservation, with us as with you, is to see that our water-powers are kept in a position where they will serve the public and not the great corporations first and the public afterwards. We learned that our navigable streams cover about 26,000 square miles. We spend $500,000,000 on our rivers and harbours and about half of that on our streams; and yet our navigation has declined in spite of this enormous expenditure, and our streams are less navigable than they were fifty years ago because the soil is being washed into .the streams faster than the government is able to dip it out in order to keep the streams in their original condition. How long the present conditions may be expected to continue, and what ought to be done about them, is the question we have to consider.
Now every one of these pregnant statements of Dr. Pinchot seem to have considerable application to Canada as well as to the United States. I would like to say in this connection that in a recent message addressed to Congress by the President of the United States, this language is used in referring to the work done by the National Conservation Commission which has recently met in the city of Washington:
The principle of the community of interest among all our people in the great natural resources runs through the report of the National Conservation Commission and the proceedings of the joint conference. These resources, which form the common basis of our welfare, can be wisely developed, rightly used, and prudently conserved only by the common action of all the people, acting through their representatives in state and nation. Hence the fundamental necessity for co-operation. Without it we shall accomplish but little, and that little badly.
Then he quotes the words of the resolution, which are as follows:

We also especially urge on the Congress of the United States the high desirability of maintaining a national commission on the conservation of the resources of the country, empowered to co-operate with state commissions to the end that every sovereign commonwealth and every section of the country may attain the high degree of prosperity and the sureness of perpetuity naturally arising in the abundant resources and the vigour, intelligence, and patriotism of our people.
Now haying touched upon these inspiring utterances of Dr. Pinchot, which were listened to with the greatest attention and interest by every person present, let me, before dealing very briefly with the various resources such as forests, mines, etc., with which we are endowed in Canada, refer to a very patriotic work which has been done in the province of British Columbia by Mr. A. C. Flumerfelt, who has offered, during the past two or three years, prizes in that province for the best essays upon the potential resources of the province of British Columbia. I daresay that every hon. gentleman in this House has received a copy of the essays, embodied in pamphlet form, which are the results of Mr. Flumer-felt's patriotic endeavours. They contain a vast amount of information with regard to the natural resources of British Columbia, and I do not doubt that when our Canadian forestry bureau gets to work, when possibly some conservation commission is established in this country, we may have pamphlets of this kind with regard to all the natural resources of Canada, for we need them very badly at the present time.
Now, I would like to say to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister of Canada, and I am saying it without casting any discredit upon the government, without casting any discredit upon the forestry bureau which has been recently established, that I have spent, during the last year a great deal of time, first and last, endeavouring to find out only a few things regarding the various resources of Canada. I wanted to find out, in the first place, whether the forest resources of Canada are enormously greater, as, I thought at one time, than the forest resources of the United States ; I wanted to find out what is the total acreage of the land in Canada which we can regard as properly available for the purpose of producing merchantable timber for export or for use at home; I wanted to ascertain how rapidly we are cutting that every year; I desired to ascertain how rapidly it is being replaced by the natural growth of the forest; and I am bound to say that, at the present time, there does not exist in Canada any official information whatever on these points, so far as I am aware, taking the country as a whole. Some information may exist in respect to one of two of the provinces, but taking the Dominion of Canada at the present time, there is absolutely no official information on those heads. I am not saying this in criticism of
the present government or of any previous government, but I am saying it for the purpose of indicating to the Prime Minister, and to my colleagues in parliament, and to the people of this country, the urgent need of thorough and systematic work for the purpose of obtaining this information and placing it before the Canadian people.
1 shall not this afternoon attempt any lengthy dissertation upon the natural resources of Canada. The greatness of the subject. itself would be appalling to any man who would attempt to deal with it exhaustively. Let me speak first of the fisheries. My hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) brought to the attention of parliament last year the importance of having a select standing committee of this House upon the fisheries. At that time I concurred entirely with the view expressed by my hon. friend upon the importance of the fisheries and the necessity of some action by parliament for the purpose of stimulating interest and also bringing about a more efficient operation of the fisheries in this country and better preservation of them for those who are to come after us. The fisheries of the Atlantic and the Pacific coast as well are of very great importance to the people of Canada. I do not believe they are carried on as thoroughly and effectively at present as they might be. I believe that we have on both the Atlantic and the Pacific coasts many species of fish which are not now sought, but which will some day be utilized for food, and I believe also that the fisheries of the Atlantic coast might be made to supply the needs of the people of Quebec ana Ontario to a very much greater extent than at present. This must depend to some extent upon means of transportation and upon better methods by the fishermen and better co-operation among them. I am glad to say that there is to-day more co-operation among the fishermen of the maritime provinces, especially of Nova Scotia than there has been in the past. All these things might be encouraged and stimulated by a committee upon natural resources, because I would suggest that if such a committee be appointed, there should be sub-committees on fisheries, forests, and mines and minerals, each taking up the particular subject assigned to it; in that way such a committee could do a very great deal of work along a line that I believe to be in the public interest, the development and conservation of every one of these great industries.
Coming for a moment to our forests, one realizes that the forests of this country should be and are one of the greatest sources of our national wealth. The subject of forestry has been studied and developed upon scientific and common-sense principles in Europe. Many parts of our own country are unsuitable for agriculture but are eminently suitable for forestry.

Those who are interested in this subject would do well to consult an article of Dr. Fernow in the ' Forest Quarterly ' of December, 1908, from which I propose to quote a little later. Dr. Fernow points out that a very large area indeed, of several of the provinces of Canada can be usefully employed for forestry purposes and for no other purpose.
I shall take but one illustration of many that could be given of the use that is made of mountainous lands in other countries. Saxony has under state control 430,000 acres of rough mountain land-an area not larger than an average county in Canada. From this she has taken two hundred million dollars in the past fifty years. During that time the cut has been doubled and is of infinitely better quality than it was fifty years ago. Then, only 17 per cent of the cut was serviceable, now 79 per cent is serviceable and the standing wood in the state forests has increased by no less than 16 per cent. The gross revenue per acre has increased from $1.75 to $6.67, and the net revenue per acre from 95 cents to $4.37. Canada possesses a forest area at least a thousand times greater than that of Saxony. While I am not advocating a policy of expropriation for the forest lands, nevertheless Canada and the several provinces of Canada do retain under state control an enormous amount of land which can be usefully employed for no other purpose.
There has been an enormous denudation of forest lands in the United States and the people of that country are beginning to realize that the true principle to be applied to forests; is the principle of harvest and not that of destruction of the resources from which the harvest comes. It is estimated that the United States have at the present time 500,000,000 acres of forest lands. The estimates in regard to Canada vary greatly, from 800,000,000 acres to 1,700,000,000 acres. After consultation with a person who has studied the subject and who possesses an official status in this country, I am convinced that the actual area in the United States as well as in Canada available for the purpose of producing merchantable lumber whether for export or for use at home would not exceed 250,000,000 acres in the one country or the other, and I am also convinced notwithstanding the enormous denudation of the forests' in the United States that the United States to-day possesses, contrary to what is generally be lieved, forest reserves slightly greater than those of Canada; and it must further be borne in mind that the forest resources of the United States are being renewed probably more rapidly than those of Canada, because in the southern parts of the United States, where a very considerable portion Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
of their forest area still remains, the growth is probably more rapid than it is in any part of Canada with the possible exception of the maritime provinces. I make this exception because a gentleman who is now engaged in lumbering in Nova Scotia, who has had experience in Sweden, in Scotland, in Newfoundland, in Ontario and in Nova Scotia, tells me. that the spruce forests of Nova Scotia are renewed more rapidly by natural growth than those of any other country in the world.
The paucity of our information in Canada is amazing both as to the extent of resources, area cut, waste and destruction and as to the period for which forests will last under present conditions. Of course when I refer to the present conditions I do not wish to put out of sight the enormous destruction by fire every year. Lumbermen will tell you that if you look over the history of forestry in Canada, an infinitely larger amount of lumber is destroyed by fire than is cut by lumbermen and this very important consideration should engage the attention with the provincial governments to the end that this enormous loss and destruction may be checked, so far as possible, in the future. Very valuable work has been done in the United States by forest patrols. Any one who will examine the reports of Dr. Pinchot, as to what has been done in the United States, particularly in the western portion of the United States, towards guarding against fires will realize that a very great work in this same connection can be carried on in this country, and I believe has been carried to some extent already, so far as our western forests are concerned by the Forestry Branch of the Department of the Interior. I do not, in the slightest, desire to minimize the good work which has been done by that Branch.
A word as to the lumber cut of the United States as compared with that of Canada The lumber cut of the United States, so far as I can obtain any information or details amounts to about 40,000,000,000 every year in merchantable lumber. If you add to that the railway ties, the pulpwood, the cordwood, the fence poles and the other wood that is cut from the forests of the United States, I am informed by Dr. Pinchot, to whom I applied for information on this subject, that the total annual lumber cut of the United States would amount to the equivalent of one hundred thousand million (100,000,000,000) of board measure. Now, how much are we cutting in Canada at present ? I am unable to inform the House as to that with any degree of accuracy, but we have the following figures in the census of 1900 :

Our total cut, 1900-
Value.
Lawrence valley, aaid 1 -7 millions in the southern Laurentian plateau. The wood lots on these farms are assessed at 5-5 million
Sawn lumber M. feet	
Other descriptions, fence posts, railway ties number Cord wood pulp, &c., cords.. Timber, cubic feet	
3.657.000
25.418.000
9.615.000
11.727.000

We have then to inquire what is the annual destruction of our forests by fire, and what are the total resources of timber in Canada to which we must look if we are concerned as to whether or not the supply will equal the demand in years to come. The best information I have been able to get on this subject is contained in an article by Dr. Fernow, published in the Forestry Quarterly for December, 1908. I wish I could read the whole of this article to the House, but I am afraid it would be too much for me to attempt to place it all on ' Hansard.' I will, however, ask to be allowed to quote two pages of the article because they contain very interesting information and statistics as to what the total forest resources of Canada amount to and where they are situated. Dr. Fernow was at one time head of the Forestry Department of the state of New York, and he is now professor of forestry in the University of Toronto; that university being, I believe, the first in Canada to take the highly commendable step of establishing a school of forestry. Dr. Fernow is reputed to be one of the most reliable authorities on this continent as to the timber resources of Canada and the United States. He has gone into this subject very thoroughly and exhaustively in this article, and if the House will bear with me I will quote a little from it. Speaking of British Columbia and of the western forests generally, he says :
In the mountain mills the average log sawed at the mill is 12 inches, of this description some 15,000,000 acres may be found in the southern Rocky Mountain type, which figured at 5,000,000 feet, gives another 75 billion feet, or altogether for the western Canada forest 300 billion feet. One might easily double these estimates without finding the supply inexhaustible. Every effort is being made to get rid of this valuable limited asset of the province.
Then Dr. Fernow continues:
Taking Ontario alone with a total land area of 126 million acres, of which 80.000,000 are still unsurveyed, we find that the distribution of these lands among three types. of forest country occupied by the province gives 30 million acres to the southern hardwood type, 50 million acres to the central southern Laurentian type, and 46 million acres to the northern forest. Not quite 25 million acres are disposed of to private owners. From the assessment lists we learn, that of these, 14 million acres are cleared, of which 12-4 millions are in the peninsula, Lake Ontario and in St.
acres, nearly 2 million acres are reported as slash, and 2 -8 million as swamp and waste 2:4, 2, and 1 million of the latter respectively in the three sections.
Applying a general experience figure for waste land incapable of recuperation, we would come to the conclusion that 85 million acres or two-thirds of the province will always remain in woods, except so far -as it may be turned into grazing lands.
Mr. Wbitson of the Crown Lands Department, one of the best informed men on these matters, places the figure as at best 70 mil-lieu acres productive forest area, and the stand of pine outside of the licensed lands (12 -5 million acres are licensed, and were some time ago estimated to contain 24 billion feet, the annual out being around 800 million feet) and of forest reserves (10 million acres) at 10 billion feet B. M. and the pulpwood at 288 million cords. He also states that of the jack-pine not 10 per cent is fit even for railroad ties.
For Quebec the distribution of land areas may be made .as follows :-
Of the 218 million acres (342,000 square miles) around 144 million acres belong to the northern forest. 50 million the same amount as for Ontario, to the southern Laurentian: the St. Lawrence valley with 5 million acres represents mostly farm area, and the balance of 19 million acres may be accredited to the Acadian region. There are about 9 million acres in farms, of which 7 -5 millions are in crops, and 1-5 millions is waste land, hence the total forest and waste land area is over 210 million acres. An estimate by Langelier, superintendent of forest rangers, places the standing lumber of the white and red pine at less than 40 billion feet, and spruce saw-logs at over 100 billion, all other saw material (including jackpine) at about 18 billion feet or altogether less than 160 billion feet.
The maritime provinces with somewhat over 57,000 square miles, together with the eastern townships of Quebec, south of the river 130,000 square miles) belong to the Appalachian or Acadian forest type. This area is practically cut out as far as pine is concerned, and irelies now mainly on spruce far saw timber.
In New Brunswick 12 mi.ll/ion acres a.re estimated to be under wood, the composition cf which, by good authorities, is figured at 60 per cent spruce, 10 per cent pine, 5 ner cent hemlock, 5 per cent cedar, 20 per cent hardwoods. Here the larger portion is owned privately, some 10-5 million acres. Of the 7:25 acres of crown lands all but about one million acres is under licenses, the latter area being barrens or burnt.
The small remaining urea of timber land on Prince Edward Island is in calculations like these entirely negligible. New Brunswick. together with No.va Scotia which represents an area of some 14 million acres, may round off the total stand of saw timber in the eastern provinces to 300 billion feet and for the whole of Canada to 600 billion feet. We might readily double these estimates and still remain within reasonable limits of the truth, if a closer utilization, especially on

the Pacific coast, and more careful lumbering generally were practised, and if tile fires running with tolerable regularity through the slash did not destroy much of the growing timber besides the young growth.
I invite the special attention of the House to what he says in conclusion:
Considering that the above estimated stand of saw timber, which others have considerably reduced, would not suffice to supply the present annual consumption of coniferous material in the United States for more than 15 to 20 years, and the import into Great Britain of this class of material for more than 60 to 80 years, the need of securing better knowledge of the conditions of this resource and of employing conservative methods in its use are apparent.
I think every member of this House who has given the subject the slightest consideration will agree with the latter conclusion at which Dr. Fernow has arrived.
Having spoken at this length with regard to the forests, let me say one or two words about the waterways. I regard these as a natural resource. They constituted at one time the only means of communication through the country. At the present time they constitute the cheapest means of communication and of transportation for the carriage of the great products of the country. In so far as the resources of the country will reasonably permit their development, they should be developed-not as political expediency or purely local demands may require, but upon a comprehensive and carefully prepared system based upon the probable future needs of the entire country.
Then, with respect to the water-powers, I am sure that every hon. gentleman who has heard this afternoon the words of Dr. Pin-chot with regard to the importance 'of the water-powers of the United States must be impressed with similar considerations as annlied to Canada. If the water-powers of the United States are so important as he says they are to the people of the United States, I believe that the water-powers of Canada are of infinitely more importance to the people of this country. I believe that their permanence under fair conditions can be assured, and 1 have not much doubt that if properly conserved, these water-powers will prove a more valuable asset to the people of Canada in the future than all our coal and other minerals, all our iron, all our gold and silver combined. They should be investigated, estimated and scheduled. They should not be subject to exploitation for purely individual profit, but should be conserved as an asset held in trust by the state for the benefit of the whole people. I realize that the committee on agriculture and also a committee of the Senate have made some Investigation into matters touching the waterways of Canada.
I believe that a committee such as I sug-Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
gest could do a splendid work along the same lines. That committee could investigate also another subject to which attention has been called by Dr. Pinchot in the portion of his remarks which I quoted this afternoon the destruction of our forests and the consequent denudation of our hills and mountains, which converts our streams into torrents in the spring and dry beds in the summer and early autumn. A great authority in the United States, Professor Shaler, estimated that up to i896 in the upland regions of the states south of Pennsylvania 3,000 square-miles of soil had been destroyed as the result of forest denudation, and that the destruction was then going on at the rate of 100 square miles of fertile soil every year. There cannot be the slightest doubt that the equivalent of hundreds of fertile farms is being washed into the sea every year as the result of our neglect of the proper conservation of our forests.
Our mines are subject to different considerations from the forests and the waterways. The mines must, in the very process of development, eventually become exhausted. But there is good reason, it seems to me, for adopting the view that they should be administered under such a policy as will prevent waste and speculative exploitation, and that, so far as they are not required for immediate operation, the state should retain ownership and control ; and it may be that later on in the history of this country, the state will have to take a step even in advance of what I am now suggesting in that regard.
The question is, what are our resources? At what rate are they being dissipated or wasted ? How can they be developed in the interest of the whole nation ? In view of these considerations, Mr. Speaker, I thought it only right to place upon the Order Paper the motion which is now in your hands. I suggest a committee on natural resources. The work of such a committee could be distributed among subcommittees, and might be made of great service in many ways both to the government and the people. We hear a great deal, both in the United States and in Canada, of the decadence of our legislative institutions, the decadence of the influence of parliament, in these latter days, when almost all the work of government is confined to the members of the Cabinet. I know that that process has gone on in Great Britain, and it is curious to observe that exactly the same development in that respect is to be seen in Canada-that is, the continued decline of the influence of parliament as a parliament, and the continued increase of the oower of the Cabinet. I do not know that that development is a very healthy development, and I suggest to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister that we might perhaps assist in restoring to parliament as a parliament-not as a partisan parliament,

but as a parliament earnestly striving to do some work of value in the public interest-some of its influence. If we could have committees such as the one I suggest, to take into consideration matters of great public interest, matters which perhaps for the time being, in the exigencies of the political situation, could not be taken in hand by the government itself, they might serve a very useful public purpose. The reports of such committees need not be acted upon immediately by the government of the day. For example, I believe that public attention should be directed to the pulp-wood of this country. I realize what the conditions are in Quebec, the maritime provinces and other parts of the country. The people of this country do not understand that at the present time, while our producers are receiving for their pulpwood about $6 or $7 a cord labour bestowed upon it in the United States, when that pulpwood goes across the borders, make it worth $50 or $60 or .$70. I realize that the subject is not free from difficulty ; but it seems to me that a committee of this House, taking up such a matter as that, and bringing before the committee the men who are most strongly opposed to taking any step towards utilizing our pulpwood in our own country, and inviting them to state their, reasons and to argue the matter out, could do a work for the conservation of the national resources of this country which could not be done by the government of the day. So, while men everywhere in Canada are lifting up their voices for the conservation and development [DOT] of our natural resources, it seems to me that some initiative should come from parliament, and that the members of narliament, without regard to party, sinking for this purpose all partisan considerations, should take un this work and endeavour to accomplish somethin? for the good of the country. It is purely in that spirit that I have brought this matter to the attention of the risrht hon. leader of the government and of this House. I am not concerned about the verbiage of the resolutioh, or whether the committee * shall be appointed on the motion of an hon. member on this side of the House or an hon. member on the other side. But I would like to see something done, and I trust that the suggestion that I have taken the liberty of submitting to the consideration of the House will receive the favourable consideration of the Prime Minister and his colleagues and of hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, and that in some manner it will be acted upon during the present session.
of Canada,' one is led in these days to consider mainly our water-powers and timber resources, and I listened with great interest to the remarks of the hon. the leader of the opposition in that connection. Though I have not given these two matters sufficient personal attention to hope to contribute anything of interest to the debate, there are a couple of points to which I wish very briefly to refer. My hon. friend referred to the fact that last session the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) proposed that a select committee should be named to deal with matters relating to Marine and Fisheries, and I notice by the Order Paper that that hon. gentleman has given notice of his intention to renew his resolution of last year. In my judgment there is a considerable contrast between matters which come within the purview of the Department of Marine and Fisheries and those which are generally understood to come within the meaning of the term ' natural resources,' and I trust therefore that when the House comes to determine what shall be the scope of the proposed committee, it will eliminate anything relating to Marine and Fisheries. However, I am sure that there will be no great difficulty on that score, and that the hon. leader of the opposition will concur in my suggestion. There is just one other matter which is recalled to my mind by the mention by my hon. friend of a lumber operator in Nova Scotia, Mr. Miller, who does a large business in the county of Halifax. Mr. Miller has carried on lumber operations in many European countries and takes a deep interest in the conservation of our Canadian forest resources. I remember his telling me personally, not so very long ago, that he imported from Scotland spruce tree seeds for the purpose of seeding a certain number of acres of his holdings in the county of Halifax each year. For the last three years, he has made it a practice to seed about fifty acres each year of the land he cut over the preceding year. Some two or three years ago he imported from Scotland a quantity of these spruce, seeds, naturally thinking he was doing some good to the country as well as advancing his own private interests, and being under the impression that these seeds were free of duty. You may imagine, Mr. Speaker, that he was rather mortified to find he was compelled to pay duty. The only suggestion I have to make is that the Minister of Customs should reduce his revenue tariff just a little bit by putting spruce seeds on the free list.


William Paterson: Parliament makes the law, and I only carry it out.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: I would like to make a few observations regarding one matter which has attracted my attention for some years past. Whether the committee asked for, could, if appointed, do


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN (Lunenburg).: I shall not, Mr. Speaker, take up much of the time of the House discussing this resolution. By the expression ' conservation and development of the natural resources

the work or not-and I do not think they could-it is very desirable to determine, at the earliest date, to whom these water-powers belong. Of late years a great many people are coming to this parliament to get incorporated for the purpose of controlling water-powers all over the country. We have had a Bill read the first time to-day for that purpose, and that is the same Bill which was thrown out last session by the Senate. It is quite clear to me that the desire of the incorporators is to get control of the water-powers of three important streams in the province of Ontario. Five or six years ago, I asked if the question had yet been determined as to whether these water-powers belonged to the provinces or to the Dominion. I can understand that the Dominion may control navigable streams, but many of these streams .are not navigable, and on some of the latter the most valuable water-powers are found. It is for the purpose of getting control of these water-powers and streams that these companies are being incorporated. Some four or five years ago I brought this matter up and asked the government to have the question determined by some tribunal so that we might know whether the control lay within the provinces or the Dominion. If the water-powers belong to the provinces, the provinces ought to have control, because these powers will be one of the most valuable provincial assets. If they belong to the federal authorities, let the federal authorities determine how they shall be controlled. But if there he a joint interest, let it be determined what belongs to the provinces and what to the federal authorities. But the question ought to be determined at the earliest possible moment. It is absolutely necessary that it should be in order to stop the efforts of individuals or corporations to get control. I hope the government will not forget this phase of the matter and endeavour to have the question settled at the earliest possible moment.


Mr.  A. H.@: I am happy to say that I have no word of dissent to express regarding the principle involved in my hon. friend's motion. The government is prepared to accept it and indeed would be prepared at once to grant this motion but for a consideration which I shall present later on to my hon. friend. He has said that the tendency of the present age is towards the decadence of parliament. I am not prepared to agree with him on that point, though I admit that the tendency is rather to put more and more responsibility on the government. Formerly members of this House would take the responsibility of certain legislation, but it is now felt better to draw the attention to, or the government to, certain subjects and expect the government to take them up and carry them to a successful issue. This Mr. SPROULE.
motion is somewhat at variance with the principles of parliamentary government as they came to us in 1867. We have several committees in this House, but all are intended for the one purpose only, namely, to aid legislation. We have the Committee on Railways to which all questions affecting railways are referred. We have the Committee on Banking and Commerce to which commercial questions are referred. We have the Committee on Private Bills to which is referred measures that do not affect railways or public works or banking. We have also the Committee on Agriculture, but that is a departure from the accepted doctrine which prevailed in 1867 when we got our constitution. That committee is not an aid towards legislation.
It is a committee of general information. And the work which has been done by that committee cannot be too highly praised. It has, almost every year, brought valuable suggestions to the attention of the House, and it has been the leader in legislation which has been most useful to the country. It has not initiated legislation itself-it could not do that,-but it has brought to the attention of the House from time to time important suggestions which the country demanded. The suggestion of my hon friend for a committee on natural resources is in the line, as he has said, of the Committee on Agriculture. It is not, as I have said, according to my reading of parliamentary institutions, as they have been. But parliamentary institutions must move with the times. I think the suggestion of my hon. friend is a good one. But I have one observation to offer, and one which I will ask him to consider between now and the time when this debate is resumed-as I intend to propose in a moment that it should be adjourned for the present. He has included in the work of his proposed committee a very wide sphere of action. He proposes that this committee should deal with fisheries, forests, mines, minerals, waterways and water-powers. A committee of that kind, it seems to me, would be cumbrous. He has suggested that the committee might divide" itself into sub-committees. I would suggest that it would be more in accordance even with the object he has in mind to make, not one committee only, but several committees. Exception has been taken by my hon. friend from Lunenburg (Mr. A. K. Maclean) to the inclusion of fisheries in the work of this committee; he suggests that a committee should be appointed to deal with this subject alone. I agree with my hon. friend from Lunenburg, and also with my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) who moved a resolution last year, and has repeated it this year, that the fisheries should be the subject of a committee by itself. We might deal with the subject of fisheries as we have dealt with the subject of agricul-



X, 1909

[Stage Direction]
ture. Next, mines might very well be made the subject of one committee's operations, as agriculture has been and fisheries would be. I think we might also have a special committee for forests. Possibly, there might be another for waterways. But forests and waterways are so intimately connected that, perhaps, they might be made the subject of one committee. I think we will all agree in what has been shown by the expert opinion quoted by my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) in his very interesting speech that, if we wish to preserve our waterways, we must preserve our forests. If our land is denuded of its forest cover the country must pay the penalty of ruined waterways. As these two naturally go together, we might give one committee charge of forests and waterways.
Robert Laird Borden: And water-powers.


Wilfrid Laurier: And water-powers. I would observe that it might be better for the general convenience of the House if we had more committees with less numerous membership. Our committees, at present, are unwieldy. The activity of members seeks exercise in some way, and all desire to be on committees. If, instead of six or seven committees, we have more, we might reduce the membership of the committees and engage the activity of members dealing with important subjects of which those committees would have charge. So, as I have suggested, we might have a committee on fisheries, a committee-already established-on agriculture, a committee on mines, a committee on forests and waterways-or, possibly, one on forests and one on waterways; as to that, I would not give a definite opinion, but we invite the opinion of the House. If these views are in accord with the general object which my hon. friend wishes to attain, I think I would be prepared to agree with him altogether. My only suggestion, as I have said, is that, instead of having one committee as is proposed by my hon. friend, we should appoint several committees. I will not press the matter, but will move the adjournment of the debate so that my hon. friend may consider the suggestions I have made.


Robert Laird Borden: So far as I am concerned, I would be prepared to fall in with the suggestions of the Prime Minister I can see no possible objection to the appointment of several committees; in fact, I might have made the motion in that way, but one naturally felt that it would be a rather startling proposal that four or five new committees should be appointed, and that it would be better to begin by proposing one. No doubt, the work would be better done in the way the Prime Minister has suggested.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned.

Mr.  E. A.@: LANCASTER (Lincoln and Niagara) moved the second reading of Bill (No. 6) to amend the Railway Act. He said:	Perhaps the Prime Minister would
like a word or two of explanation, but he will hardly desire more, as this is a well-known Bill. It has been discussed in this House for five years. After three years' discussion, it was passed by the House unanimously exactly in the form in which it is now, and for the last three sessions it has been passed by this House in that form and rejected by the Senate. The Bill is designed to provide for the protection of the public at railway level crossings in cities, towns and villages. I should think it would suffice to point out, as I have already done, that the Bill exactly as it is now, and after a full consideration, has been passed by this House. I may say that it was amended to its present form when the present member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson) was Minister of Railways and Canals. It was the subject of consideration by a special committee, where it was discussed for days and days, and where all that the railways had to say upon it-which was a great deal-was heard and voluminous evidence taken. The Bill was reported to the House unanimously by the special committee, and was unanimously passed by this House and sent to the Senate. Towards the end of the session of 1906 it went to the Senate, and naturally, one would think, without my making that remark, that it might have had some attention when it went there. I wish to point out to the House that it went to the Senate very late, because a committee of this chamber had spent a good deal of time during the session in getting it into that form, and it was not considered nossible by the Senate to deal with it then. But the next session previous to the last session, when the hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson) was Minister of Railways and Canals, it was passed unanimously by this House, and again last session. Therefore I think I can well ask this House, without going into a long discussion of the Bill, and in view of the great number of accidents that are happening at this time, to confirm the action of this parliament the last two sessions, and send this Bill, which is exactly in the same form, again to the Senate for their consideration this session.


Wilfrid Laurier: The last House has expressed its opinion of this Bill of my hon. friend, and I do not think that the old members would be inclined to revise their opinion. Therefore, unless some of the new members find it unsatisfactory, and unless we hear from them, I think the mo-| tion ought to be carried.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the . second time, considered in committee, and reported.
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I thought this was one of those cases that should be referred to the Railway Commission.


Mr. LANCASTER.: The hon. gentleman was not on the special committee that dealt with that subject. We dealt with the suggestion of the then Minister of Railways, and I fell in with it. The railways complained that they would be put to an unnecessary expense if they had to deal with a lot of crossings which years ago had been ordered to be protected by the Railway Committee of the Privy Council. The court is extinct, but the judgments remain, that is, the court has ceased to exist-I call it a court, to use simpler language. The Railway Committee of the Privy Council, years ago, gave orders in regard to certain of these crossings, and the railways contended before the committee that or if we referred this question only to the Railway Commission they would be obliged to go to elaborate expenses, to call witnesses, to take levels by engineering experts, and so on, and that a great many of these protections already ordered might well stand until the commission saw fit, for some reason, to change them. Therefore, the Bill is drawn so that they are not required to do anything else as long as they comply either with the orders of the Railway Committee, that is, the orders of the Privy Council, or of the present commission, the authority of which might apply to the crossings in question. It was at the request of the railways, to save them expense.



RAILWAY ACT AMENDMENT-FIRE CAUSED BY LOCOMOTIVES.

Mr.  A. H.@: CLARKE (South Essex) moved the second reading of Bill (No. 7) to amend the Railway Act. He said: The object of the amendment which I propose is to enlarge the classes of property for which a railway company shall be liable in case of fire communicated by a railway locomotive. In 1903, section 298, as it is at present in the Revised Statutes of Canada, was enacted. That provided that whenever damage should be caused to crops, lands, fences, plantations, or buildings and their contents, by a fire started by a railway locomotive, the company should be liable for damage so caused, with a provision limiting the amount of such damage in case the railway company could show that it was not guilty of any negligence. The object of the present amendment is to strike out the words which specify the kinds of property to which damage may be caused and for which the railway company is responsible. You will notice by section 298 that it is con-Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
fined to crops, lands, fences, plantations, or buildings and their contents. Now, it has been found in the experience of people owning property adjacent to railways, that there are other classes of property which are not enumerated in this section; for instance, building material. If a house is set on fire a railway company is liable under this section; if the house is not erected, the lumber, shingles and other materials upon the ground are not covered by this section. Another class of property which frequently suffers, in my constituency particularly, is cordwood and bolts for staves ; if they are destroyed, they do not come within this section.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: And fence rails not yet put up into fences.


Mr. A. H. CLARKE.: A case has arisen in the courts of Ontario in regard to marsh hay which has been baled. The contention has already been set up that this does not come within the definition of crops, and the courts held that it does. But the case is still subject to appeal, the words are capable of some misconstruction. I therefore move that these words be struck out, and that the section as amended shall read as follows:
Whenever damage is caused by a fire started by a railway locomotive, the company making use of such locomotive, whether guilty of negligence or not, shall be liable to such damage.
So whatever property is damaged, the company will be liable for such damage. The section was introduced last year by the then member for New Westminster and was referred to the Railway Committee, and passed in almost the very words of the Bill I am now proposing. The only difference was that instead of leaving the question of liability entirely at large the Railway Committee inserted words making it read 'damage to any property.' I have no particular objection if the House thinks it proper to add these words, but I would prefer to have them omitted. For instance, damage might be caused to a human being, a house might be set on fire and the inmates injured. But if it were limited to property there would be no liability in that case. It seems to me there is as much reason to make it apply to injury to human beings or, say, to live stock, as to property, and, as it has been fully considered by the Railway Committee, I think the House might pass it through the Committee of the Whole without sending it to the Railway Committee.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: 
Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia).: I consider tbis amendment absolutely necessary.
I know that in my constituency a man spent a considerable amount of money in planting out trees around his farm. A railway set fire to the prairie and destroyed the trees to the value of a couple of hundred dollars, and he had no redress whatever. If this Bill is passed it should cover any such cases.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.: Would the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster) state why this was limited by the introduction of the word ' property ' in the Railway Committee?


Edward Arthur Lancaster: As I remember it, Mr. Kennedy, then member for New Westminster, inserted the word ' property,' thinking it would make better reading, and the raih ways agreed to that change; but the Bill as introduced by him was very much in its present form. The only suggestion brought forward by the railways was that they should be subrogated if there was insurance, just as when they pay off a mortgage. But that was considered to be impracticable by the committee and finally that objection was withdrawn by the railways and I understood they had no further objection to the Bill.


Mr. F. L. SCHAFFNER (Souris).: I wish [DOT] e;!9?.1i?ss P15'' very great appreciation of this Bill. Any one who has lived in the west, where the railways are becoming very thick, knows that every fall, during the cutting of hay and of grain there, great losses are sustained' by farmers from this cause, and it is a question which,, every
member from the west has had brought to his attention. I am exceedingly pleased that the Bill is receiving the unanimous support of both sides.


George Perry Graham: This Bill, while not lengthy, is very wide in its scope. I know that last session, even before it got before the committee, it was the subject of private consultation, and it was agreed by every person that the Act as it now stands is not satisfactory, that it is too circumscribed, and that when any damage occurs it is a matter of practice at least that the railways take the exception that the property destroyed does not come within the terms of the Act. The railways urged that when they have to pay damages the amount of insurance the party received should be deducted. However, the committee practically passed the Bill unanimously, with the condition that the word ' property ' wiping out all restrictions, should be added. If my hon. friend who has introduced the Bill wishes to put it into the form of last year I have no objection to proceeding with it ; if not, we should send it to the Railway Committee. I would not care to change it materially and rush it through without referring it to the Railway Committee.


Alfred Henry Clarke: I would rather have it as it is now. It seems to me we are only inviting disputes. The question may come up what ' property ' means. I would very much prefer leaving it at large so that if any damage occurs they should be liable for that damage whatever it is. It would perhaps not be as good a Bill for the lawyers, but it would save confusion. If the House wishes to add the word ' property ' I will acquiesce.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that he had received a message from the Senate announcing the appointment of the Hon. Senators Campbell, Landry, Lougheed and Watson a committee to assist the Hon. the Speaker in so far as the interests of the Senate in the restaurant are concerned.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY moved that the order for the second reading of (Bill No. [DOT]5), to amend the Naturalization Act, be discharged. He said : The suggestions on
[Stage Direction]
which this Bill is based came to the Department of the Secretary of State from the Department of Justice. My attention has been drawn to certain errors and omissions in the Bill as introduced, and I therefore desire, with the leave of the House, to withdraw it, in order that I may discuss with the Minister of Justice the representations that have been made with a view to redrafting and re-introducing the Bill.
Motion agreed to, and order discharged.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 8), to amend the Dominion Lands' Act-Mr. Oliver-read . the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
On section 1,
Mr. E. L. BOEDEN.: The explanatory note states :
The above clauses are practically the same as the corresponding ones in the Act; they are not intended to change the law. The necessity for re-enacting these clauses is that they are not in their proper order in the Act. They are now placed in the order originally intended.	*
What are the corresponding clauses in the law at present ?


Air. OLIVEE.: Clause 5 of the Bill is clause 7 of the Act, clause 6 of the Bill is clause 6 of the Act, clause 7 of the Bill is clause 5 of the Act, and clause 8 of the Bill is clause 8 of the Act, but the words under subsection 7 of this section, are inserted in order to make the proper connection. In explanation of the Bill I may say that inadvertently, at some stage of the passage of the Bill through the House, three subsections of section 15 became misplaced, thereby altering their sense as they are read in the Act ; and this Bill is merely for the purpose of putting them in the places which will give them their proper _ reading and meaning according to the original intent. It was what might be called a clerical error, and I desire to have it corrected at the earliest possible moment. I wish to say to the House that it is not intended to make any other amendment to the Dominion Lands Act at this session. Though it might be found desirable in some points to amend the Act, yet it having been in force only a short time, I do not think it advisable to make any changes at such an early date.


Frederick William Borden: If the Bill really does not affect any change in the law, why is it necessary to make the change at all ?


Frank Oliver: Because the paragraphs, having been misplaced, do not read to give their true meaning. These are subsections, one relating to another, and when they are out of their proper places the proper relation is broken. All we want is simply to Mr. MTJEPHY.
put them in their proper places, so that they will mean what they were intended to mean, and really did mean as first drafted.


Frederick William Borden: In subsection 8 of the Act as passed last session, providing for compensation to be fixed by arbitration, are the words, ' in the manner hereinafter provided.' I do not know whether the minister attaches any importance to the words or not.


Frank Oliver: There is provision in the latter part of the Act for arbitration, and whether the words are there or not, the effect is the same.


Frederick William Borden: At qll events, that is what is intended ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Privy Council Department salaries, $32,825, contingencies, $7,400.
['The resolution of Mr. Fisher about the Civil Service ; then the estimates.']
Mr.  A. H.@: The salary of the clerk of the Privy Council has been raised from $3,575 to $5,000 under the Act of last session.
Then there is the assistant clerk of the Privy Council, whose salary was $2,100 and who is now receiving $2,850 under the last Act. All the other increases are simply statutory. There have been five messengers for the last twenty years, but three were paid out of contingencies and have now been transferred to the Civil Service list. The contingencies for printing and stationery have been increased $400. We have dropped altogether the clerical and other assistants. The messenger's estimate, which was paid out of the regular items, were formally paid out of this vote for contingencies. There is a decrease there of $3,000.
Department of Marine and Fisheries-Salaries, Professor E. E. Prince at $4,000, $228,640.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The reasons for the increase are these:	There were several
officers who were not included in the inside service, but in view of the change of the law last session they have been transferred to the inside service. The deputy minister has had his salary increased from $4,000 to $5,000 by the law of last session. Professor Prince has been appointed Canadian commissioner under the treaty passed with the United States. His salary before was $2,500 and in view of his appointment as treaty commissioner we have raised his salary to $4,000 in order to put him on the same footing as the American commissioner. By the treaty it is provided that two commissioners

have to be appointed for the purpose of drafting regulations. One is appointed by the American authorities and the other by the Canadian or British authorities.


Mr. DANIEL.: For what term is he appointed?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For four years, if I remember right. The regulations which have to be made will have to be made for four years.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Will this commission trnve any jurisdiction over our inland fisheries, say, on Lake Ontario?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The treaty covers Pas-samaquoddy bay, the St. Croix river and two lakes in the province of Quebec, also the River St. Lawrence where it forms the boundry line and the great lakes. Lake Ontario is included.


David Henderson: The western end of Lake Ontario from the Niagara river is not a boundary line, but is Canadian on both sides, and the people there are much alarmed lest this treaty may destroy the fishing industry entirely. What have the Americans to do with regulating the fisheries in a section such as that?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The situation is absolutely the same as in the case of Lake Superior. Although the western part is entirely within American territory it has been found ad visable that the whole lake should be included. This treaty will not have the effect of destroying the fisheries, but quite the reverse._ Those who have studied the subject claim that for years the fisheries were more or less destroyed owing to the fact that there were no regulations or that the regulations were not similar. On the American side there were three or four authorities making regulations on the same lake, which were all dissimilar and it was found advisable that they should be uniform. And the result will be, certainly, instead of destroying the fisheries, to protect the fisheries. That is the object that both British and American representatives had in view when the treaty was passed.


David Henderson: I see that the minister is more familiar with the facts than I am, but I am informed that in the western portion of Lake Ontario, which has Canada for its southern as well as its northern boundary,-I mean that portion of the lake opposite the county I have the honour to represent,-there is an important fishery, the cisco herring fishery. I am informed that the licenses, this year, will have a condition _ compelling the fishermen to use nets with a mesh of 2f inches. For the last fourteen years, they have been fishing with a mesh of 2f inches. If they are compelled to use a larger mesh, the effect will be to prohibit them from fishing, for they cannot catch these fish with this
class of net. What they fear is that this regulation which has been given out will be confirmed by this new commission or under this new treaty, and they are seriously alarmed for their industry. I trust the minister will bear in mind the peculiarity of the fishery of that section of the lake. I may tell him that the officer whose salary we are now discussing is quite familiar with the cisco fishery and with the class of fish found in that part of the lake. All I ask is that these people should be protected. Their all is bound up in this fishing industry. There is no use of saying that the fishing is being destroyed. The fish there were as abundant last year as they ever were. That is the information I have. I was there during the autumn, and there is no complaint that the fish are being depleted, in fact, the fishing last season was excellent. But if the fishermen are compelled to use the larger mesh, it will make no difference whether the fish are plentiful or scarce. The fish do not grow large, but those that would -be caught with the larger nets would be the mother fish, the breeders. I understand that a petition has been sent to the minister very recently. On inquiry on Saturday, I learned that it had not reached him then, but when it does reach him, I hope he will give it his serious consideration and will not allow the larger mesh to be made obligatory under the regulations.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am under the impression that no change has been made in the regulations governing the fisheries in that part of Lake Ontario. Had any such regulations been passed, I should certainly have had knowledge of the fact, and I think I should have remembered it, but I have no recollection of any such change. The other regulations are not in force, they are not even drafted. But the two commissioners have been appointed under the treaty, as I have said, to draft these regulations. I will bring the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) to the attention of Prof. Prince, and will see to it that the fishermen are properly treated.


David Henderson: I am under obligation to the hon- minister for what he has said. My information comes direct from men engaged in the fisheries, and I understand they get their information from Mr. Tinsley, of Toronto, who, I presume, does not speak without the authority of the minister, for he knows perfectly well that, while he has to do with the licensing of the fishermen, no change in the regulations can be made without the consent of the minister. I hope the minister will stand firm in the interest of the fishermen, and that he will consult his officers and any one else who can give him information on the subject. I feel sure 'that if he does this he will not permit any change in the regulations that have been in existence during the last fourteen or fifteen years.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Of course, I am speaking subject to correction on this subject. But I have been giving the matter great consideration and study recently, and I feel sure that any such change in the regulations would have been impressed upon my memory. I certainly have no recollection of such a change having been made.


Mr. GEORGE TAYLOR.: I would suggest that this item be allowed to stand. The hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) is not here, neither is the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden). This item is increased this year from about $115,000 to about $228,000, a very large increase and one that calls for explanation. There are a number of items that are non-contentious, such as items 10, 11, 12, 21, 23, 25 and 26. These,
I think, we might dispose of.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have no objection to allowing the item to stand, but I would not like these figures to be considered as representing an increase in the export on the fisheries. There have been a few increases, but the figures just read do not explain the situation. The hon. gentleman will see that the figure for last year, $115,250, represents the salaries voted under Civil Government last year. But by virtue of the law passed last session, all the officers in the fisheries branch in Ottawa, some of whom were paid out of the different votes, are now to be paid out of the Civil Government vote.


George Taylor: I understand that. But I find, at page 24, that the number of officers last year was 78 temporary and 77 permanent, a total of 155. Now, there are 171, a very considerable increase. I am sure that the number now is double what it was in 1896, though the work is practically the same.


William Paterson: Oh, no.


George Taylor: I would ask that this item be allowed to stand until the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr Foster), who was at one time Minister of Marine and Fisheries, is present.
Office of the Auditor General-Contingencies $t),500.


George Taylor: There is a decrease here of $11,500, but I see that $11,000 is transferred to salaries.


Wilfrid Laurier: Exactly.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


David Henderson: The Chairman must take into consideration the fact that we only had these estimates placed in our hands a short time before the House rose at six o'clock. We have had no opportunity of looking at them, and I trust he will not cry ' Carried ' too soon. We are handling a good deal of money.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is really not much money handled under this item Mr. HENDERSON.
The regular service last year was $71,000, this year it is $88,000. The contingencies were $18,000 last year, and $6,500 this year. The figures total about the same as last year.
Department of Finance and Treasury Board -Salaries, $107,812.50; Contingencies, $11,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I notice in this item that a third division, subdivision B, appears to be added this year that was not on before, and apparently 43 persons are taken in from the outside service. Is the cost increased?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes. The regular vote for contingencies last year was, in round numbers, $70,000, this year ^ is $107,000. This increase is explained by the fact that some 43 employees were taken from the outside service and put in the inside service.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I presume there will be 43 fewer people in the outside service than there were before?


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: What is the object of bringing them in from the outside service?


Wilfrid Laurier: As provided by the Act of last year.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It appears that a great many of these men are to have their salary increased by $150; is that in addition to this vote?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: So that what we are voting now as salaries to these men is not what they are to be paid. A considerable number of them are to be paid $150 each more than is put in the estimates.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: That is a serious matter to take into consideration. The salaries here are very much the same as they were last year.


William Paterson: With the statutory allowances.


Mr HENDERSON.: What about them?
Are we ever to hear anything more about them? Are they to drop out of sight?


Wilfrid Laurier: There will be statutory increases every year until a civil servant reaches the maximum of his class. The allowance increases from year to year by $50 until he has reached the maximum of the class he belongs to.


David Henderson: I was in hopes that we had got this Civil Service matter about where we could comprehend it. It seems to me the First Minister has not simplified the matter at all. He is going to add $150 to the salaries of a certain number of men, not all the men. Then some men, we do net know how many, we do not know who

they are, are to have their salaries increased year by year by $50. Now, if the Prime Minister could appoint a committee of this House to make the matter a little more obtuse than it is, I would like to see them at work.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am quite
willing to take the suggestion of my hon. friend. I have been some thirty years in the House, and I cannot say that I understand the Civil Service Act yet.


Mr. ROCHE.: How many civil servants are now at the maximum of their various classes?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot say.


David Henderson: There is another question. A civil servant will get his $150 added this year, for I suppose the government intends to put that Bill through. Will that do in lieu of three years of statutory increase, or is the statutory increase to be over and above the $150.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is.


David Henderson: That is a big lump. That means that each one will get $200 this year of an increase, at least a great many of the men. The impression has gone abroad in the country that all they were getting was $150 each, and that that was a settlement of the whole account. I do not know whether the First Minister, during the election promised more than that or not, I think it was only $150 each that was promised. But now it seems it is getting worse and worse; the increase is more than he promised.
Department of Trade and Commerce-Salaries, $38,837.50; contingencies, $19,350.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am satisfied there are no increases except those authorized last year by the Civil Service Act, except the annuities branch, which is a new branch altogether.


George Taylor: Does the Prime Minister think it necessary to continue this branch or has he any thought of abolishing it as recommended by the minister who presided over it a few years ago ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Far from it, it is more useful than ever.
Office of the High Commissioner for Canada in London, salaries, $10,600.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is no increase there except what is authorized by the statute of last year.


David Henderson: W7ho is the secretary referred to there ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Griffith.


David Henderson: That increase of $200 to the assistant secretary has no relation to 13
the $150 or the statutory increase, that is only an additional sum given to him ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: The next one has an increase of $100. I find there are a great many increases outside the statutory increases of $150. There seems to be an increase all along the line.


Wilfrid Laurier: These increases were authorized by the statute of last session.
High commissioner's office, London, contingencies, $19,775.


David Henderson: Would the minister say how that compares with say 15 years ago ? Away back in the 90's we heard a good deal about the expenses of the London office. Are we doing the work there as reasonably as it was done then or are we getting a little more extravagant in England as we are in Canada ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I was in the House at that lime, 15 years ago and I never heard my hon. friend complain that we were extravagant in those days.


David Henderson: I never complain, but I heard the right hon. the Prime Minister and his friends complain by the hour, denouncing the extravagance of the London office. I am afraid they have forgotten their virtue of those days. I do not know that we have any better service than we had 15 years ago.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have a very good service.


David Henderson: I called at the London office about two years ago and I tell you I would not give Mr. Griffith $5,000 for
his services. I have not a very high estimate of the way he treats strangers, much less members of parliament. I do not care if he reads that in ' Hansard.'


Mr. C. JAMESON (Digby).: Has the Prime Minister any information as to the amount of the income tax on the salary of the High Commissioner?


Wilfrid Laurier: I shall obtain the information at a later date.
Office of general consulting engineer to Dominion government, salaries, $7,250.


Herbert Brown Ames: When Mr. Schreiber acts as arbitrator as I understand he is doing on the present occasion to settle differences between the Grand Trunk Pacific and the government, is he paid extra ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not think so, it is not so intended.
Civil Service Commission, salaries, $19,075.


Herbert Brown Ames: W'hen did the Civil Service Commissioners definitely take office and commence work ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I think they were appointed on the 1st of September. I cannot say exactly when they took office but about that time, in September.


George Taylor: Who are the
commissioners ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Professor Shortt and Mr. Larochelle of Montreal.


David Henderson: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to state in very brief detail what the duties of these men are ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It would be difficult to put their duties into brief words. The duties of the commissioners are being defined by themselves now, they are establishing rules for the carrying on of their work. As my hon. friend knows, their chief duty is to select officers for the recruiting of the Civil Service. We have no power at the present time to appoint anybody to the service. For instance, the Minister of Customs would have to write to the Civil Service Commissioners that there is a vacancy of a certain character in his department and asking the commissioners to supply an officer, and the commissioners would appoint the successful competitor in the examination.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Do the commissioners select the man who has the highest marks?


Wilfrid Laurier: I think so. I cannot say they do it mechanically, but the theory of the' Act is that the successful competitor shall be appointed.


David Henderson: And would the Civil Service Commissioners have a right to reply to the Minister of Customs, saying:	You
have a sufficient staff already; you do not need another man and we will not let you appoint one. I for one am desirous that the inside and outside service should be well paid. I much prefer they should be well paid than that they should be underpaid. I have said before, and I say again, that in the Civil Service we have a great many educated men, men of ability, and men who are most accommodating and obliging when you meet them, but I do believe that the inside service is overmanned. I have the idea, I may be wrong, that you could dismiss from the service 500 officials and still have enough to do the work. I do not ask that any of these officials should be dismissed, because it would be a hardship, but I do think that when a vacancy occurs that vacancy should not be filled until there is a most careful inquiry as to whether there are not already sufficient employees to discharge the duties of any given department. I would have the officials work longer hours; I do not think there is any difficulty in an able-bodied man, or woman either, working six hours a day. Why, in my youth Mr. AMES.
I used to work twelve and fifteen hours a day and think nothing of it, but now a man gets fatigued after five or six hours work and he has to get out and play lawn tennis to recuperate his health, and we provide him with grounds for that purpose. I do not find fault with that, because that is probably as good a way as any other to occupy one's leisure time. But I do press on the government that a general opinion prevails in this House and outside of it that the service in Ottawa is overmanned. I am told that there are men in the service today whose time is largely taken up in simply revising the work of others who have not acquired a competent knowledge of their duties, and that these men who do know their business would be quite sufficient to do all the work that the service calls for. I would not advise the government to do any wholesale weeding out, because, as I have said, it would be a hardship to dismiss these employees, but if vacancies were not filled except in cases where it was absolutely necessary to do so, in eight or ten years you would be astonished to find how much fewer officials you could get along with. Then I would be in favour of the principle that those who remain in the service should get increased pay so as to encourage them in an energetic discharge of their duties. I am sure the work of the departments could be better done under such a system than by bringing in new men every six months, or every month or every day for that matter and schooling them in their duties. I do not look for so very much from this new system of appointing civil servants. The First Minister may knit his eyebrows; perhaps he realizes that the old system of pull would be better. By this competitive examination system you may get a man well up in algebra or Euclid or English grammar, or he may be a university graduate, but he may not be worth a button when he comes to perform some minor duty in the department. I understand that the examination will only be along the ordinary lines as a test of education.


An hon. MEMBER.: Oh, no.


David Henderson: Suppose you want an officer for the Customs Department, will he undergo an examination calculated to test his knowledge of the difference between cotton goods and woollen goods so that he may be able to determine the duty which should be paid? If that were so, then you would want to have as many commissioners as there are departments; you would want a man for the Fishery Department who would be able to conduct an examination as to the quality of the nets and the size of the mesh that would catch a big fish or a small fish, and you would want another for the Militia Department which would be

able to decide on what were the qualifications for a soldier. I have no hope that this commission is going to accomplish what we anticipate for it. I believe we will find that in the end pull will have as much to do with it as anything else. At all events I would urge on the government that vacancies should not be filled unless it is absolutely necessary to fill them, and if you have $347,000 additional to give to the civil servants I would divide part of that amongst the officers who remain in the service, weeding out the surplusage as vacancies occur and paying better the men who remain. If this were done, I am sure you would have more satisfaction amongst the civil servants of the country. Then when I and others go to the different departments we shall find the officials thoroughly posted in their work and prepared to give us the information we desire instead of meeting a young man who, from no fault of his own, is utterly unacquainted with the business he is assuming, and will perhaps be out of the office again in six months or a year and a new man put in his place. I trust the government will take up my idea and think over it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am very much disappointed at the remarks of my hon. friend. I thought he would give us some encomium for what we have done, but instead of that he gives us a lot of blame. My hon. friend, after paying a graceful compliment to the Civil Service, went on to say that it was largely composed of men who could not do their work and whose work had to be supervised by other officers; and he suggests that when vacancies occur we should not fill them. Well, if vacancies occurred in the offices of some of the good men who do the supervising, and the service were left to the incompetent ones, what would become of it? My hon. friend will see that the best course is to go on and apply the law as we have it, making appointments by competition and not by pull, as my hon. friend thinks is the case now. That is one of the prejudices of the other side. In order to satisfy the fastidiousness of my hon. friend we passed the present law, under which we have no pull. All the pull is with the commissioners, who I am sure are impartial ; and I am sure that under the operation of the law we shall have a good service, every man doing good work without his work requiring to be supervised by any other man.


David Henderson: Of course, my remarks could not apply to every one in the Civil Service. No civil servant will take exception to them in that respect, because no one could expect a man who has been in the service only six months to be as competent as those who have been there for six years. You find in the service a 131
great many men who are well up in their work and always accommodating and obliging. These are deserving men whom I want to see well paid. The First Minister asks what we would do when one of these good men drops out. I think the best thing would be to promote the next man below him. In that way you will fill the bill better than by appointing a raw recruit.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Who determines the appointments in the different departments- the minister or the Civil Service Commission?


William Paterson: The Act provides that officers requiring technical or professional knowledge may be appointed otherwise, but the great bulk of the appointments to the Civil Service are by competitive examination. For example, a clerk in the cheque branch of the Customs Department dies, and the Commissioner of Customs reported to me that it was necessary to fill the vacancy. Thereupon, as the Act provided, the Commissioner drew up a requisition to the Civil Service Commissioners to furnish us with an officer, and I as,minister wrote ' approved ' upon it. That requisition goes to the Civil Service Commission. They hold an examination, and we know nothing of the man they send us. I think they are using the old Civil Service examinations in a measure, but no doubt they will have new examinations before long. The young man who is sent to us was not known before either to my deputy or to myself, and he takes the position-not the position or the salary of the officer who died ; but we said to him, ' We have a vacancy in the cheque department, and we require one who writes a good hand, is good at figures and mathematics, and has a retentive 'memory.' We put him into the class in which the officer who died was placed in the reorganization of the service, not at $1,300, which I think he received, but at the minimum of the class.


Herbert Brown Ames: Suppose there is a vacancy in the first class, do you make a new appointment to that class, or do you move one from the second class to the first and one from the third class to the second, and make a new appointment to the third class?


William Paterson: In this case it is done by placing the new officer at the minimum of the class to which he is appointed.


Herbert Brown Ames: And all the others are passed up one grade accordingly?


William Paterson: No; their salaries remain as they were. They receive the statutory increase year by year, but a new man goes in at the minimum of the class.


Herbert Brown Ames: Who fills the place of the first-class man who drops out? Is there a promotion made?


William Paterson: No, there is no promotion made in that case.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Who determines whether the department is over-manned or not -the minister or the commission?


Wilfrid Laurier: If a new appointment is to be made, the government must come to parliament for an appropriation, and then the appointment is made in the way stated by my hon. friend.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish to make a few observations in regard to the inconvenience to which members of parliament are frequently put in trying to do business with the departments. The present custom is for a portion of the service to leave their offices for lunch from twelve to one o'clock, and another portion from one to two o'clock. We usually come here between nine and ten in the morning to get our mail, and after we get through with that there may or may not be committee work, and then it is pretty near twelve o'clock. If we go to the departments to-day to do any business, as a general thing, we are met with the answer that the clerk in charge of that branch is away at lunch and will not be back until one and we cannot very well get the papers ? We go back after one o'clock and we find that the head of the branch is at lunch and will not be back until two. There are thus two hours in which we cannot do any work. It would be a much better system for all officers to leave for lunch at twelve and be back at one or leave at one and be back at two. You go there at two o'clock and often they are not back and you have to wait until nearly three when you have to go to the House, and by the time the routine business of the House is done the offices are closed. Then on Saturday, these members who do not leave the city make an effort to overtake their accumulated work, the morning is usually taken up with routine work of mails, until it is noon, then at one o'clock the departments are closed and the whole afternoon you can do nothing. That is the experience of most members who have been here any length of time. Some change should be made.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sure that there has been no change in the service in my experience but I shall speak to my colleagues about my hon. friend's suggestion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: A few years ago this question was. brought up and it was then intimated that a large number of the junior clerks might have their lunch hour from twelve to one or from one to two, and the senior officers either from twelve to one or from one to two. At present it happens that just when you want to do business, you cannot get any one to do it.


Herbert Brown Ames: 


Herbert Brown Ames: Under what department or minister does this Civil Service Commission fall ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is like the Auditor General absolutely independent of the ministers.


Herbert Brown Ames: Will there be a detailed report each year ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Mr. J. D. REID.: I do not want to find fault, but in any industry in this country the employees generally work from at least eight in the morning until six in the evening, I do not know what the particular hours are for the civil servants, but at the very best they are no longer than from 9.30 a.m. until 4 p.m. I have gone to the offices and have found that even at 10 a.m. the officials are often not there. I do not think it would be a great hardship upon the officials if they went to work a little earlier in the morning and quit work a little later in the afternoon. If that were done, we could dispense with a good many of them. Any man in this country should be able to work from 8 a.m. until noon and then from one until 5 p,m. Let the right hon. the Prime Minister inquire of any manufacturer whether his employees do not work from 8 a.m. until 6 p.m.; I believe that the ministers themselves and their deputies are there from at least 9 a.m. until 6 p.m.


Wilfrid Laurier: And later.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes later. I honestly believe that an employee in the service at Ottawa should work from 9 a.m. until 5 or 5.30 p.m. And if they did we could dispense with quite a number. I agree with what my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) has said, that it was almost impossible to do anything in the departments for this reason. You go there at ten a.m. and find a lot of people waiting to do business before you, and by the time your turn has come, the officials go to lunch. Then by the time you can get back after lunch, the office is closed. Is it unreasonable to ask that these men should be on duty from nine till twelve and from one till five, or seven hours per day. I have been told by an ex-official, and one of the best, that as a rule the officers only get there about ten o'cleck, then they go away at twelve or one, and at four o'clock they are gone again. This man was always there at nine sharp and worked until six and was glad to do it, as he could get through Ills work more satisfactorily in that way. I do not wish to impose any hardships, but I believe that any man who accepts a position in a government department should be there at nine a.m., take an hour for his lunch, and then remain until 5.30. If that were done, we could do with a good many less officials.


Mr. GERMAN.: It is rather interesting to listen to my hon. friends. For years when the Conservatives were in power, exactly the same conditions existed and we never heard from them a word of protest.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman is
mistaken.


William Manley German: I would like the member from East Grey to point to me one utterance of his criticising the civil servants for not being in their departments during every hour of the day, while the Conservatives were in power.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not wonder that my hon. friend did not hear me because he was so seldom here, but I have made the same criticism on numerous occasions and can turn to ' Hansard ' to prove my words.


William Manley German: I could not possibly keep track of everything the hon. gentleman has said because he has so much to say on everything. But I have had as much to do with the civil servants, in at any rate three of the departments, as any other member of parliament for the last twenty, years, and I will say this. Take the Department of Railways and Canals and the Public Works Department and the Department of Marine and Fisheries, which has been so much talked about, there has not been an hour in the day from ten a.m. until six p.m. when you could not find one of the leading officers" there to do business with.


John Dowsley Reid: You are an exception; they favour you.


William Manley German: I believe I am not an exception. They were there when the Conservatives were in power, and they are there now. The chief officers of this department are in their offices from ten in the morning to six at night, with an hour for lunch.


John Dowsley Reid: That is what I admitted.


William Manley German: Then I cannot see what the hon. gentleman has to complain of. Surely, with these hours, they are performing their duties. Most of these officers having been appointed years ago are probably Conservatives in politics. But I believe that the public servants of this government are as fine a body as can be found in this or any other country. They are attentive and faithful in the performance of the services for which they are paid. They are intelligent and accommodating, and will grant any favour that is in their power. Why any hon. member of this House should complain of them I cannot understand, unless it is that my hon. friends opposite want to get some of their own friends into office. I am not sure that I am in favour of the Civil Service Commission. If I were a minister of the Crown I would appoint my own officers, and would not want
the Civil Service Commission to appoint them for me. I would select them myself, and I would select good ones, and I would have a body of officers that, I am sure, would satisfy even my hon. friend from Grenville (Mr. J. D. Reid).


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman (Mr. German) tries to censure me because I did not complain of the hours of the Civil Service when the Conservatives were in power. I was then, of course, a new member. In the remarks I made I was not censuring this government in particular, Even though the hours are the same now as when the Conservatives were in power, is that any reason why, if I should think the hours should be longer so as to reduce the number of employees, I should not mention it at this time? The hon. member for Welland states that the deputies, or a few of the leading officials, are in their departments until six o'clock at night. I admit that you can go there at that hour and find, probably, the deputy minister and his secretary, or the minister and his secretary, and perhaps the chief clerk. But 95 per cent of the officials have gone, having left as soon as the clock struck four. If the deputy and private secretary and the minister can work, as I believe many of them do, from nine o'clock until six every day, and probably long after that, why should not the other officials do the same? A clerk in the Civil Service should perform as many hours as he would in any manufacturing concern. I may be wrong in that opinion, but I hold that opinion until I am proven wrong. I contend that the officials here would not be overworked if their hours were from 9 o'clock in the morning until 5 or 5.30 in the afternoon. I believe that such a rule would help the minister and the deputy. When these leaders in the department remain late, they must require papers from the different rooms, and if officials were there they could supply them. And, if the hours were extended, is it not reasonable to expect that fewer clerks would be required to do the work? I am not finding the slightest fault with the members of the Civil Service. I admit that we have a good service; the officers are accommodating and willing to do anything they can to assist one who has to do business with them. All I say is that if the hours were made what seems to me reasonable hours, fewer clerks would be required to do the work. But so long as the law is that the officers can go at four o'clock


William Pugsley: There is no law to that effect. The clerks of the Public Works Department do not leave until 4.30.


John Dowsley Reid: Well, even admitting that it is 4.30 o'clock, it strikes me that that is rather early in the day for the officials to leave. I venture to say that

396'
there are many men in this House who employ large staffs of clerks, and I would like any one of these to say if he makes the hours for his staff from 9 to 4 or 4.30. You will find that, as a rule, the hours are from 8 in the morning till 6 at night, and many of them even come back after six o'clock. I believe that if the departments were open from 9 a.m. to 5 or 5.30, one-third of the civil servants would not be required. I say that without any disrespect to the members of the Civil Service.


John Gillanders Turriff: The hon. member (Mr. J. D. Reid) is not altogether right as to the number of hours civil servants work. I have had some experience in the Department of the Interior. The clerks of that department must be in attendance by 9.30 in the morning. They have to sign a book. At 9.30 a line is drawn and the book is taken into the deputy minister's office and any who arrive after that time are noted as being late. They get an hour and a half, not two hours, for lunch, and they sign the book when they go out and when they return as well. In the Department of the Interior the clerks work until 4.30 p.m. in the summer and during the winter until 5 o'clock. I know that is not the rule in some of the departments, but in the Department of the Interior these are the hours. As pointed out by the hon. member for Welland (Mr. German) the deputy ministers and many of the chief clerks are at work at 9 a.m. and remain in their office until half past five or six p.m. I agree with some of the remarks that have been made on this subject, that those clerks who reach the office at half past nine o'clock and scarcely get to work before ten, and leave at four in the afternoon, are not doing a proper day's work. I think there ought to be a uniform regulation made by which the hours of service in all the departments at Ottawa should be of the same length, and it would do no harm if they were made to last till five in the afternoon the year round.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: It seems to me the hon. member for Welland (Mr. German) has put up a few straw men for the sake of knocking them down. I am sure he defended a great many things which have not been attacked. The hon. member for Grenville (Mr. Reid) spoke of appointing fewer men and giving them longer hours. I have felt ever since I have been a member of this House, while not wishing by any means to ask anything unreasonable from the civil servants, that the hours they work are too short. Whatever the .law may be, it is the practice that we have to deal with; and the practice is, notwithstanding the remarks of my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff), that the great proportion of the civil servants leave their offices at four o'clock in the afternoon. I may mention an Mr. J. D. REID.
illustration that came to my notice yesterday, showing the effect of short hours. A young man told me that he was formerly in the Civil Service and I asked him why he left it. One reason he gave me was this: he said, because, when my duties are over at four o'clock in the afternoon, I have too much time on my hands. I believe there is a good deal in that. The young man and the young woman who get out at _ four o'clock have too much time for mischief.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In view of the observations of the hon. mfember for Welland (Mr. German) I wish to say that I neither intended to, nor did I reflect in any way on the civil servants. I do not hold them responsible for this arrangement, because I understood it was made by the deputy ministers in concurrence with the ministers, that a proportion of the employees should go away between 12 and 1 for lunch, and another portion between 1 and 2. I do not blame them at all, nor do I insinuate that they -were wanting in intelligence, in courtesy or in diligence. I said nothing about that at all, because I found them to be the reverse, in my experience. I was speaking about the inconvenience of the present system.


Mr. McGIVERIN.: I would like to say a few words on this subject, as one who for many years has had a good deal to do with the various departments of the government. I am glad to hear my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) speaking for the. Interior Department. In my experience, while the hours named have been from 9.30 to 4.30, if you enter a department at any time before 6 o'clock, you will find in it a number of clerks still at work. While it may be said that from 9.30 to 4.30 are not long hours, it will be found throughout the country generally, if you take the practice in insurance companies, banking concerns, and others of a like nature, that the hours are no longer than from 9 until 4 o'clock, and in many cases until 3 o'clock. In my experience I have never known of any inconvenience or delay occurring in the different departments by reason of the hours of work ceasing at 4.30 in the afternoon. If there was work to be done after that hour, it was always done by a senior official or by a junior official. While a good deal has been said throughout the country about the duties of the civil servants, and some fun has been made of their short hours, I want to say now that this opinion is altogether unfounded. As I said the other day, any one acquainted with the different departments and the work as done in them will find, if he takes the trouble to ascertain, that the work is thoroughly well done during the present hours. We must not forget that long hours do not necessarily mean good work. When the work is being done as

satisfactorily as it is at present, I do not think the civil servants deserve some of the criticism that has been levelled against them.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Nobody has said the work was not well done.


John Dowsley Reid: I was glad to hear the honourable the junior member for Ottawa <Mr. McGiverin). I did not know that he had so much experience with the departments as to know how the work was being done. This is the first time I have heard that he was inspecting the departments to see what work was being done. We have never heard any of the ministers get up and make a statement such as we have just heard from the member for Ottawa, namely, that he knew that all the work was done at 4 o'clock or 4.30, and that if it was not, the officials stayed there longer. Now, I have it from an official, a gentleman who was high up in one of the departments, that the clerks do not get there until just before 9.30 in the morning, and at 4 o'clock in the afternoon 95 per cent of them walk out the minute the clock strikes 4, whether the work is done or not. If it is not done, they leave it until the next morning. This gentleman was high up in the department, he gave me this version of the case, and I *would prefer to accept his opinion to the opinion of the hon. member. The hon. gentleman suggests that in banks and other institutions the clerks do. not work any longer. But it is a well known fact that when a bank closes at 3 o'clock in the afternoon the clerks have to remain at least two hours afterwards to balance up their books, to write letters, and get things into shape. They go to work before 9 o'clock in the morning, and I have heard from managers of banks that it takes them two hours after the bank closes to finish up their work. They have only one hour for lunch. The hon. member for Assiniboia says that the hours in the departments are from 9.30 in the morning. They work for two hours and a half until 12 o'clock, then they have an hour and a half until 1.30 for lunch, then they work until 4.30 in the afternoon.


John Gillanders Turriff: In summer, till 5 in the winter.


John Dowsley Reid: That is five hours and a half a day. Will any man .in the Dominion contend that five hours and a half is a day's work for any man in an office? The hon. member for Welland knows well enough, because I believe he is interested in some manufacturing industries, that if the clerks were not there at 8 o'clock in the morning and did not work till 6, he would dismiss them promptly. Here in Ottawa I think myself that the officials should commence at 9 o'clock and work till 5 or 5.30. I am not blaming this government any more
than their predecessors. It has been the rule probably ever since confederation. I claim that if the government would make the hours from 9 a.m. to 5.30 j).m. they would not require as many officials. People arriving here at 3.30 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon would be able to get work done and return home on the night trains. They cannot do this now on account of the short hours of the service.
Item allowed to stand.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The discussion recently has not been relevant to the question which is the Civil Service Commission; they have no power whatever over the hours of the Civil Service.


Mr. C. A. WILSON (Laval).: Are we to understand that the Commissioners have jurisdiction over or anything to do with the discipline of the employees of this House or are they simply appointed to ascertain the qualifications of the different candidates who apply for the Civil Service? Then what is understood by the distinction between the inside and the outside service? Are the officials of the Customs Department or the Militia or Public Works Department m Montreal or Toronto paid out of the appropriation for the inside service?


Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Charles Avila Wilson: What about the discipline then?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have suggested that this item stand. A good deal of information has been asked for and can be given next time.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Before we leave the vote for Civil Government, would the Prime Minister explain whether the bringing in of the outside service to the inside service will account for the increase from $2,061,000 to $3 933,000? If you add to that the increase from $347,000, the increase being granted to the Civil Service you considerably more than double the amount of money that was given to them in 1908-9.


Wilfrid Laurier: The outside service in Ottawa has been taken into the inside service and the salaries are now voted by parliament, whereas formerly they were voted in a lump sum in many departments. It is only a transferring of figures.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Would that be sufficient to double the amount?


Wilfrid Laurier: That is my impression, but I will have it. looked into.
Governor General's secretary's office, salaries $20,125.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the increase there?


Wilfrid Laurier: This is in consequence of the Act of last year. The only

large increase is that given to Sir John Hanbury-Williams. The intention was to bring his salary to the rank of subdivision A.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Would all that increase of nearly $9,000 be taken up by the increases of the three names mentioned here?


William Paterson: Five are brought in from the outside service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What are the names ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I will get them later on.
Charges of management $303,200.


Wilfrid Laurier: The only increases are from the outside service.


George Taylor: How do you make the large decrease?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot answer that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is a decrease of $10,250.


George Taylor: I presume the explanation is that the $24,000 put in last year for the printing of Dominion notes is not in this year. Against that there are some increases amounting to some $8,000 altogether. One is an increase in the amount for the removal of foreign coin from circulation and about $2,000 in salaries' at Charlottetown, Winnipeg and Halifax.
.Mr. AMES. There is an item, 'Commission for payment of interest on public debt, purchase of sinking funds.' To whom is that commission paid?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot give the explanation to my hon. friend this evening; I shall give it to-morrow.


Herbert Brown Ames: Do I understand the First Minister will give a statement on that tomorrow?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: Carried.


David Henderson: We have asked the item to stand on the promise of the First Minister that he would give us an explanation. We want to know all about this commission before the item passes. We do not expect that the right hon. gentleman would be in a position to answer the question to-night but the item should stand until we get the information.


Wilfrid Laurier: My understanding was that the item should pass on the promise that I would give the explanation to-morrow.


David Henderson: My experience in this House is that when we let items go in this way they are never called again and we never get the explanation. The surest *way is to allow it to stand.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Wilfrid Laurier: Very good.


David Henderson: That will be the rule for this session.


Wilfrid Laurier: Oh, not this session ; just this time.
Item allowed to stand.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What business does the government purpose taking up to-morrow ?


Wilfrid Laurier: The resolution of Mr. Fisher about the Civil Service ; then the estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at ten p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, February 2, 1909.