1909-12-06

MEMBER INTRODUCED.

[Stage Direction]
Oliver James Wilcox, Esquire, member for the north riding of Essex, by Mr. R. L. Borden and Mr. Armstrong.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved:: That the name of Mr. Ross (Middlesex) be added to the following select standing committees:	1. Railways, Canals and Telegraph
lines. 2. Miscellaneous, Private Bills. 3. Banking and Commerce, and (4) Agriculture and Colonization.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Wilfrid Laurier: That the name of Mr. Wilcox be added to the following select standing committees:	1.
Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines. 2. Miscellaneous, Private Bills. 3. Public Accounts. 4. Agriculture and Colonization, and 5. Library.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. FIELDING.: With regard to the budget, I would propose to move that Thursday be made a government day and on that day I expect to make the budget speech, if there be no objection to taking Thursday for that purpose.


Mr. FOSTER.: I do not often have to ask for delay in these matters but there is an engagement made several months ago that is due on Thursday, and I will not be able to be here. Of course, the Finance Minister may go on, but it would deprive me of the pleasure of listening to his speech.


William Stevens Fielding: I would not care to go on in the absence of my hon. friend. His face opposite is always an inspiration to
me.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Thursday is government day, I think, without any motion.


William Stevens Fielding: Not this week.


Wilfrid Laurier: One month after the opening of parliament.


Robert Laird Borden: I thought it was after the third week.


William Stevens Fielding: I think the fourth week. I believe it is the last Thursday which is private members' day. Thursday would be the only day available. The trouble is that if we get into the following week we are getting dangerously near the recess. However, I will not bring it up on Thursday, if my hon. friend will not be present. I will probably bring it up on Tuesday of the following week, but I will later make a more definite statement.



QUESTIONS.


Mr. LAKE:: 1.	Wkat was the average price paid by the government per bushel for each of the different grades of wheat, oats and barley distributed as seed grain in the year 1908?
2.	What was the additional cost incurred per bushel for cleaning the grain, sacking, freight, distribution, customs duties, and other expenses in connection therewith?
3.	What was the charge per bushel for each grade made to the farmers to whom the seed grain was supplied?
4.	What was the average price per bushel at which the surplus of each grade, not distributed as seed grain, was sold by the government ?
5.	What was the contract price paid for wheat and oat sacks and at what price were the unused sacks sold?
6.	What was the total amount charged against farmers to whom the seed grain was supplied, and how much was paid on account of such seed grain by the farmers to the government up to March 1, 1909?

7.	What was the net profit or loss to the government in connection with the seed grain distribution?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER:: 
Mr. LAKE.: 


BUILDING OF GOVERNMENT STEAMERS.
Mr. J. A. CURRIE:: 1.	Has the government called for tenders for the building of the ships for which this House voted money last session?
2.	If so, when were these tenders called for and from whom?
3.	Were any tenders received? If so, from whom, and what were the respective amounts?
4.	Were the contracts let? If so, to whom?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR:: 
LACHINE CANAL EMPLOYEES.
Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	How many men, what are their names, and the length of time in the service, who were employed in the carpenter shop on the Lachine canal under the supervision of Denis O'Brien, from May 1 to November 25, 1909?
2.	Was there any one suspended or discharged during the same period?	_
3.	If so, what are their names, their length of time in the service and the date of their dismissal ?
4.	Was there any one dismissed or suspended and reinstated during the same period? If so, what is their names and the length of time in the service?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM:: 1.	See statement No. 1.
2.	Yes.
3.	Names and length of time in service, given in statement No. 2.
4.	See names in statement No. 3.
LACHINE CANAL-CARPENTER SHOP STAFF. Statement No. 1.
Name.
F. K. O'Grady...
R.	Parsons	
E. Fiset	
P. Demers	
Geo. Larose'....
L. Bouchard....
A. Drapeau	
J. B. Tanguay___
Ls. Crevier	
.J. Turcotte....
N. Drolet	
S.	Gariepy	
A. Tellier	
J. B. Labranche.
J. Langevin	
J. Savard	
L. De Bellefeuille
J. O'Grady	
L. Page	
S. Mayrand	
E. St. Jean	
W. O'Brien	
J. H. Landry____
A. Larive....,...
J. Dowton	
Occupation.
Wages	First
per day. Appointment.
$ cts.
Length of Service.
Remarks.
Years.
Head foreman Asst, foreman.
3 50 Jan. 16,1900.... 3 00 Aug. 1900....
Carpenter and pattern maker	
2 75
Carpenter
Asst. Carpenter. Handyman	
2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 50 2 00 1 75 1 75 1 75
1897....	12
Sept. 1882....	27
May 1892....	17
Nov. 16,1891...	18
Feb. 1897...	12
May 14,1894....	15
Mar. 1901....	8
1894...	
1897....	12
1904....	5
1906....	3
1896....	13
Nov. 20,1900....	9
Feb. 1903 ...	6
Mar. 1902....	7
1904....	5
1906...	3
1897....	12
1907....	2
1897....	12
1906....	3
1901....	8
1904....	5
Number of men to September 1st, 1909, 25 carpenters and handymen, n	November 25 th, 1909, 10 n	u



LACHINE CANAL-CARPENTER SHOP STAFF.

[Stage Direction]
Statememt No. 3.-Withdrawals, Suspensions, &c.
Name.	Occupation.	Wages.	Length of Service.	Remarks.Carpenter .. ti .. Handyman..	$2 50 2 50 2 50 1 75	6	years... 7	.. .. 12 „ .. 8	„ ..	Laid off Sept. 1, '09, but later worked a few days in Nov. Laid off Sept. 1, '09, but later worked a few days in Nov. Laid off Sept. 1, reinstated on Sept. 24th, '09. Transferred to Staff as Bridgeman, Nov. 15, '09.L. DeBellefeuille.. A. Drapeau .. ..

Mr. SMYTH:: 1.	How many members of the Dominion Police Force were sent into the districts of Thunder Bay and Rainy River, West Al-goma, East Algoma and Nipissing, at the last general election, respectively ?
2.	Upon whose request, and by what representations were such police sent into the ridings, and for what purpose?
3.	Who ordered them to go, and what instructions were given them?
i.	Were they, or any of them, in any instance sent upon a special train? If so, why, upon whose request, what was the cost of special transportation, and who paid it?
5.	What was the total cost per constituency of sending out and maintaining these police?
6.	Has it been the custom of the government to utilize the Dominion Police Force for this purpose? If not, why was an exception made in these instances, and upon what authority?
7.	Was the sending out of these police preceded by any request of the Ontario government to provide such? If so, by whom was such request made, and with what result?
8.	Was there any correspondence with the provincial government on the subject?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH:: 1.	To Thunder Bay and Rainy River, none; to West Algoma, three; to East Algoma, eight; to Nipissing, none.
2 and 3. It was stated in the Toronto Conservative newspapers of I9th October, 1908, Mr. GRAHAM.
that a number of men, not regular constables, were being given special authority by the government of Ontario to make arrests and were to go into the constituencies of East and West Algoma in connection with the elections then proceeding, to polling places called backwoods polls to patrol the approaches to such polls on the voting day and make arrests as they might think fit. It is the ancient and undoubted privilege and right of this House to conduct its own elections by its own officials, who are responsible to it alone. The House of Commons has at all times been jealous to guard this privilege and right, and quick to resent any interference with it. In these circumstances, believing the statements in the newspapers above referred to, to be true, I, upon my own responsibility as a servant of this House, directed that sufficient Dominion police to protect honest voters from intimidation or interference with the free exercise of their franchise and under instructions to arrest and prosecute under section 269 of the Dominion Elections Act any one guilty of such indictable offences should be sent at once from Ottawa to the Electoral Districts of East and West Algoma. I directed the Commissioner of Dominion Police to despatch the men and to give them their instructions in the words above stated.
4.	Two of the men went on a special train
1C09

[DOT]which, for a different purpose altogether, left Ottawa for Sault Ste. Marie on 25th October, 1908. No request was made by anybody that men should be sent on that train and there was no cost of special transportation. The circumstance that the train was going was simply taken advantage of.
5.	$338.12 in all, for the two constituencies.
6.	No, because this is the first instance, so far as known, in which any such interference with the conduct of elections to this House has been attempted. What was done in this case was done upon my authority alone.
7.	Certainly not.
8.	No.



GOVERNMENT REVENUE AT DUNN-VILLE, ONT.

Mr. LALOR :: 1.	What was the total amount of postal revenue for the town of Dunnville, Ontario, during each of the years from 1900 to 1909, inclusive ?
2.	What was the total customs revenue of the Port of Dunnville, Ontario, for each of the years from 1900 to 1909, inclusive?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	Postal revenue of the town of Dunnville, Ont., during each of the years from 1900 to 1909, inclusive:
Year ended June 30, 1900 .. ..$3,057 72 "	*'	"	1901	..	..	3,225	12"	"	"	1902	..	..	3,628	28"	"	"	1903	..	..	3,960	48"	"	"	1904	..	. .	4,178	63"	"	"	1905	..	. .	4,684	95"	"	"	1906	..	..	5,686	87Nine months ended March 30, 1907 4,437 98 Year ended March 31, 1908 . . .. 6,010 86 "	"	"	1909	..	..	7,463	84


Hon. WM. PATERSON:: 2.	The total customs revenue of the out-port of Dunnville was as follows:
Fiscal year ending June 30, 1900. .$ 4,644 16 "	"	"	1901..	5,747	28"	"	"	1902..	7,202	25"	"	"	1903..	9,017	51"	"	"	1904.-13,653	87"	"	"	1905..	16,367	51"	"	"	1906. .	30,856	00Nine months ending March 31, 1907 24,398 27 Fiscal year ending March 31, 1908 25,286 44 "	"	__ "	1909 22,499 94



OTTAWA GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS.

Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	Does the government pay the taxes and local improvement rate on the building which it has rented on the northeast corner of O'Connor and Queen streets?
2.	Who is to pay the water rates, street sprinkling and snow cleaning?
3.	Does the government heat and light the building and pay the janitor and elevator expenses?
4.	Who is to make the ordinary repairs and any changes that may be required by the government hereafter?
5.	In figuring the floor space as 23,470 superficial feet, has any deduction been made for the halls, stairways, &c., and has the basement been included in such estimate?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	The government.
3.	Yes.
4.	The government.
5.	Deduction made for halls, stairways, elevator, boiler and fuel rooms.



ALBERTA COAL AREAS.

Mr. MAGRATH:: 1.	What is the estimated total area of coilbearing lands in Alberta and the estimate total tonnage of coal within such area?
2.	What is the total area of such lands disposed of up to 31st of March last, and the average price per acre obtained therefor?


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	From the information at present available an estimate cannot be given of the number of acres of coal lands there are in the province of Alberta. Coal has been discovered in many parts of the province, but in the large majority of cases the development of these several discoveries has not been sufficient upon which to base an estimate as to the extent of the coal-measures. In addition to this, more than one-half of the province lies north of Edmonton, and as no great demand for coal in this northern part of the province has yet arisen, very little prospecting has been carried on. New discoveries of coal in the southern portion of the province are still being made, and while it is known that the coal-measures of the province are of very great extent no estimate has been attempted as to the number of acres of such lands or the total tonnage of coal within such areas.
2.	The total area of coal lands disposed of up to the 31st of March last is: Disposed of by sale, 259,525-33 acres; disposed of under lease, 83,830-28 acres; the average price per acre obtained for coal lands under sale is: For surface and coal mining rights, about $10 an acre; for surface rights only, about $7 an acre; under lease, about 85 cents an acre per annum.



HALIFAX AND ESQUIMALT DEFENCES.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Is proper care being given to the expensive machinery in the workshops and other buildings taken over from the imperial government at Halifax and Esquimalt to prevent undue deterioration?
2.	Is sufficient care being given to the defence works, fortifications, mines, buildings, machinery and defence appliances of every nature on ordnance, command or district

gunners charge at Halifax and Bsquimalt, to preserve the same so that they may be constantly fit for service?
3.	Have stores or material of any description whatsoever, taken over from the imperial government at Halifax or Esquimalt, been since sold? If so, under what instructions, description and quantity, what prices were obtained, and in what manner were such sales conducted?
4.	Has the attention of the government been called to' a speech alleged to have been recently made in England by Sir William Henry White, K.C.B., F.R.S., LL.D., B.Sc., in which great reflections are said to have been cast upon the administration of the Canadian authorities as respects the care of properties and materials handed over by the imperial government in connection with the defences at Halifax and Esquimalt? If not, will the government cause inquiries to be made and the correctness, or otherwise, of the assertions established?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	It is not practicable to reply to this question at once. Obsolete articles are disposed of annually undeT regulations for Canadian Ordnance Services, and it is impossible t-o state from records at headquarters whether some of the articles disposed of, such as tools, &c., formerly belonged to the imperial government or not. A report on this subject has been called for from the senior ordnance officers concerned.
4.	The attention of the government has not been called to a speech alleged to have been recently made in England by Sir William Henry White, K.C.B., F.R.S., LL.D., B.Sc.



THE PERMANENT FORCE.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Are all recruits of the permanent force required to follow such courses of instruction immediately after enlistment, as will qualify them to act as instructors to the active militia?
2.	How many competent instructors are the permanent force able to supply from its present strength of 2,710 for the training of active militia?
3.	Does the permanent force at Esquimalt provide courses of instruction for officers and men of the artillery branches of the active militia? If not, why not?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	In the combatant branches of the permanent force the course of instruction given to a recruit is such as to qualify a man, who has the faculty for imparting instruction, to be an instructor to the active militia.
2.	441 hold certificates as first-class instructors. A laTge number are qualified to instruct, but are not so highly competent.


Mr. WORTHINGTON.: It must be Temembered that the duties of the permanent force include others beside those of instruction.
3.	Yes.


Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Are all officers of the permanent force who are performing command or district duties paid according to the scale of consolidated rates of pay and allowances fixed by regulations for their appointments?
2.	If any such officers are paid according to the regimental or daily rates of pay and allowances, what is the additional cost to the public, how long have such officers been so employed, under what authority is the scale fixed by regulations departed from, and what reasons exist for such discrimination?
3.	Are any public quarters, that are owned or rented by the Crown or any department thereof, occupied by any officers in receipt of consolidated rates of allowances, or by any government officials whose incomes were so fixed as to include the hire of quarters? If so, by what officials and at what stations?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	Yes, except in two cases in which officers in command of permanent units were seconded to fill staff appointments with the same rates of pay and allowances as they were drawing previous to transfers. The staff officers of Winnipeg and Calgary are also drawing a special rate of lodging allowance.
2.	The two officers in command of permanent units, seconded to fill staff appointments, above referred to, are paid the regimental rates of pay and allowances according to rank at following additional cost over the consolidated rates fixed for the appointments: Deputy assistant adjutant general, Eastern Ontario command, $200 per annum; district staff adjutant, military district No. 12, $705.75 per annum. The staff officers at Winnipeg and Calgary draw from $300 to $362 extra for lodging allowance on account of the high rents there. These rates have been drawn since the following dates: Denuty assistant adjutant general, Eastern Ontario command, May 1, 1905; district staff adjutant, military district No. 12 (previously D.S.A., military district No. 81. May 15, 1907; district officer commanding, military district No. 10, June 15, 1907: district officer commanding, military district No. 13, May 1, 1909; district staff adjutants, military districts Nos. 10 and 13, February 2, 1909. The regulations have not been departed from, as in the first two cases the officers are drawing the pay, &c., of their rank, and were only seconded for duty on the staff. In the other cases the rates were fixed by order in council and hence became regulations.
3.	Yes. Officer commanding, Western Ontario command, Toronto; district officer commanding, militarv district No. 7, Quebec; chief staff officer, Quebec command,

Montreal. In each of the above cases the amount of lodging allowance included in the consolidated rates, is deducted from the salary of the officer concerned. In addition, the district officer commanding military district No. 1 has been permitted to occupy quarters at Wolseley Barracks, temporarily, until required by the officer commanding regimental depot, Royal Canadian Regiment, London.



ANNUAL COST OF PERMANENT FORCE.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	What is the full average cost to the public per annum for one soldier of the permanent force ?
2.	What is the average cost per annum for the keep of one horse for the permanent force, inclusive of shoeing, veterinary attention and all other incidental expenses?
3.	(a) What is the average cost per annum of remounts.; (h) where are they chiefly procured ; (c) by whom are purchases made; (d) how many were purchased during the last financial year, and at what total cost inclusive of all expenses incidental thereto, such as commission to purchasing agents, travelling expenses of purchasing officers, and transportation charges of purchased animals to destination ?
4- (a) How many horses have been cast by the permanent force during the five years ended 31st March, 1909. and (b) were any such cast within three years of their purchase? If so, for what causes?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	$564, with, in the case of mounted units, an additional $110 per man per annum for purchase of remounts and forage.
2.	Approximately, $130.
3.	(a) This includes travelling expenses of purchasing officer and all other incidentals. $184.65 average first cost each remount, based on three years' purchases. (b)Re-mounts are generally procured locally, but a few have been purchased in the Northwest for the use of the Royal Canadian Dragoons, (c) Purchases are made by the officers commanding the units requiring remounts, assisted by the veterinary officers, and acting under authority from headquarters, (d) 46 horses were purchased in 1908-9 at a total cost, including all incidentals, of $9,-
000.68. [DOT]
4.	(a) 73. (b) 27, for the following causes:
Number
Diseases.	of
horses
cast.
Sprained shoulder and rheumatism.... 1
Navicular disease	 3
Chronic laminitis	 1
String halt	   1
Ringbone	 1
Rupture	 1
Vicious and incorrigible	 4
Ataxia of hind legs	 1
Unsound in wind	 1
Number
Diseases.	of
horses cast.
Thick leg	 1
Weak pastern joint	 2
Injury to pubic region	 1
Atrophied shoulder	 1
Muscular weakness of loins	 1
Sprained perforans tendon	 1
Dropsy	 1
Sprained and ruined tendon	 1
Valvular affection of heart	 1
Larnygitis and bronchitis	 1



CONTRACT RE IMPROVEMENTS ON MONTREAL RIVER.

Mr. GEO. GORDON:: 1.	What is the name of the contractor to whom contract has been awarded for construction of improvements on Montreal river?
2.	Is the contractor hound to commence and complete the work in any definite time? If so, when?
3.	Have any arrangements been made to provide Cohalt with a suitable post office and customs building?'


Mr. PUGSLEY:: 1 and 2. Tenders have been called; the lowest tender received is from W. H. Sinclair and D. B. Campbell, $38,705. Contract has not yet been awarded.
3.	No, as far as the Department of Public Works is concerned.



CRUISE OF THE ' ARCTIC.'

Mr. JAMESON:: 1.	Has Captain Bernier made an official report covering the last cruise of the ' Arctic ' in the northern waters?
2.	If not printed, will the report if any, be laid on the table of the House, and when?


Mr. BRODEUR:: 1.	The reports covering the last cruise of the 'Arctic ' in the northern waters are now being prepared.
2.	These reports are generally included in the Annual Report of the department, which is laid on the table of the House at the beginning of each session of parliament. There is, however, no objection to these reports being brought down earlier, and when they are received by the department they will be laid on the table of the House.



FREE MAIL DELIVERY IN CITY OF SYDNEY, NOVA SCOTIA.

Mr. MADDIN:: Why has the free mail delivery service promised the city of Sydney, Nova Scotia, not been put in operation, and what has occasioned the delay?
SiT WILFRID LAURIER. The delay referred to has been occasioned by the fact that the department has only recently been

able to ascertain that the city had the necessary population to entitle it to free letter carrier delivery. Moreover, the service cannot be put into operation until after the houses have been properly numbered, and the streets labelled at intersecting points, and this latter requirement is only now being supplied.



IMPORTS OF MACHINERY STEEL.

Mr. RHODES:: What quantities of single-reeled and double-reeled machinery steel were imported into Canada during the years 1907 and 1908, and what was the value of each kind in each year?


Mr. PATERSON.: Single - reeled and double-reeled machinery steel are not classified separately in the customs returns. The imports of round steel shafting not exceeding 21 inches in diameter, during the years ended 31st March, 1908 and 1909, were as follows:
Year	Quantity.	Value.1908	
43,387 cwt.	$89,4281909	
28,322 "	53,747
FISHERMEN'S BAIT ASSOCIATIONS. Mr. MADDIN:
1.	What amount per ton has been paid to Fishermen's Bait Associations for storage of bait ?
2.	What amounts were paid during the years ending March 31, 1908 and 1909, as allowances to Fishermen's Bait Associations for storage of bait at Canso, Half Island Cove, Larry's River, New Harbour, Whitehead, Port Beck-erton and Drum Head, in Nova Scotia, to whom paid and the dates of the various payments?
3.	What is the total amount that has been paid by the government towards the cost of construction of the freezers at Larry's River, Nova Scotia, and to whom were these sums paid?
4.	What quantity of bait was stored in each
of the freezers mentioned in question 2, during the years ending 31st March, 1908 and 1909?	.
5.	What are the names of the persons in these places who report to the government as to the quantity of bait stored in the freezers?
6.	What amounts have been paid by the government to the steamer known as ' Drift No. 33,' during the years 190S and 1909, and for w-hat services has this steamer been used?


Mr. BRODEUR:: 1. $5 per ton of bait frozen up to twenty tons for the first five years of operation.
2. The bonuses to the	Fishermen's	Bait
Associations were paid	for the calendar	
years:	1907.	1908.Half Id. Cove	.. .. 100	$100Larry's River	.. . . 100	100New Harbour	. . . . 100	100Whitehead	Port Beckerton	... 100	Drum Head	.. .. 100	100


Wilfrid Laurier: 11th February, 1908,	and 28 th	January,
1909.		
3. $915.92, made up	as follows:	
Material supplied.. .		
Cheque			. . 797.07
The cheques were issued in favour of the		
Larry's River Fishermen's Bait Association.		
4.-	1907.	1908.
	Lbs.	Lbs.
Half Id. Cove	.. 42,000	98,000Larry's River	. . 48,076	115,416New Harbour	. . 60,923	104,826
. . 49 912	
Drum Head		. . 53,894	112,615
5.	Mr. Peter Macfarlane, the department's outside officer in charge of this service, on whose certificate the bonuses were paid.
6.	Nothing has been paid to this steamer, as she is the property of the department. She is employed as a tender to the Canso-Dogfish Reduction Works.



POSTMASTER AT CAMBORNE B.C.

Mr. GOODEVE:: Was a petition received by the Post Office Department from the citizens of Camborne, B.C., complaining about the appointment of a postmaster there, and objecting to being compelled to go into an hotel to receive their mail? If so, what action, if any, was taken in regard to it?


Wilfrid Laurier: No petition has been received from the citizens of Camborne, British Columbia, complaining about the appointment of a postmaster there, or objecting to being compelled to go into an hotel to receive their mail, but a telegram and letter were received from Mr. W. G. Marten, who informed the department that he was acting on behalf of the citizens of Camborne, stating that there was objection to the appointment of the present postmaster, inasmuch as the post office would be kept in an hotel, but the department was assured when making the appointment that the post office would be kept in a drug store, of which fthe present appointee, Mr. Abey, is the proprietor, and has no reason to believe that the postmaster has not kept good faith with the department, and that the office is now situated in a drug store according to agreement. If the hon. member for Kootenay will assert that the post office is now being kept in a hotel, the department will have immediate inquiry made and take such action as will protect the public.



EXPORTS OF FARM AND DAIRY PRODUCE.

Mr. ARMSTRONG:: 1.	How many bushels of wheat, oats, barley and pease were exported from Canada in the year ending 31st March, 1909, and the total amount received in each case?

2.	How many dollars worth, of butter anil cheese, respectively, were exported from Canada in the year ending March 31, 1909?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER:: 1. The exports of the produce of Canada and imports for consumption, respectively, of wheat, oats, barley and pease during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1909, were as follows:
Exports.	Imports,
(produce of	(for eon-
Canada.)	sumption.)
Bushels.	Bushels.
Wheat	
49,137,449	46,366Oats	
5,255,610	454,693Barley	
2,959,335	97,730Pease	
801,309	30,2102.	The value of butter and cheese the produce of Canada exported from Canada during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1909, was as follows:Butter	$ 1,521,436Cheese	
20,384,666



TITLE OF LOT 73, BAIE ST. PAUL, MANITOBA.

Mr. STAPLES:: 1.	Is the title of lot 73, Baie St. Paul, province of Manitoba, vested in the Crown? If so, is it for sale? If not, why not?
2.	Are there any unsettled claims against said lot?
3.	If so, how many, who makes the claims, and what is the nature of the respective claims?
4.	Has there been any applications made to purchase said lot? If so, who are the applicants and when did they make application?
5.	Is it the intention of the government to oiler said lot for sale? If so, when and on what terms and conditions?


Mr. PUGSLEY:: 1.	Yes; not for sale, pending settlement of claims thereto.
2.	Yes,
3.	Two, Louis St. Denis and Sus6 Gladu, respectively, on the ground of ownership before the transfer of the territories, July 15, 1870.
4.	Yes, John Merigold on the 14th September, 1876; Peter Kirton, 7th October, 1890; J. Lenfestey, 6th September, 1902; Alfred Hogue, I9th June, 1908, and John Cameron, 30th October, 1909.
5.	No; pending settlement of claims referred to in answer to question No. 3.



ESQUIMALT ARMAMENT.

Mr. BARNARD:: 1.	What was the cost of transporting the six twelve-pounders, B.L. 6 cwt. guns with lumber, wagons, stores and ammunition, &c., to Esquimalt, British Columbia?
2.	Where did these guns come from, what regiment had last been using them, and what guns have been supplied in place of them to such last mentioned regiment?
i
3.	For what purpose were these guns sent to Esquimalt, British Columbia, and what unit is to train on these guns?
4.	Has this type of gun been discarded by the imperial authorities as useless for modern warfare?
5.	Has the department withdrawn these guns from eastern Canadian regiments and armed them with more modern weapons?
6.	It it the intention of the department to send any more of these guns to the Pacific coast ?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	$957.27.
2.	(a) Montreal and Granby, P.Q. (b) 6th and 7th brigades, Canadian Field Artillery, (c) Q.F. 18-prs.
3.	(a) To replace 13-pr. muzzle loading guns. (b) No. 1 company, 5th 'British Columbia' regiment, Canadian Garrison Artillery.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 2.
6.	This will depend upon circumstances.



MILITIA CLOTHING.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Have articles of clothing issued to the active militia a fixed life, at the expiration of which the militia corps become entitled to a new issue, or is a new issue held hack until the previous issue is produced, examined, and condemned as unfit for further service?
2.	Have articles of clothing issued to the permanent corps a fixed life at the expiration of which they are replaced by a new issue, without reference to their fitness, or otherwise, for further use?
3.	If, at the expiration of a fixed life for clothing issued to the permanent force, such articles are found to he still fit for further use, are men permitted to continue to use the same, and in lieu of a new issue, draw a cash allowance for their personal benefit?
4.	Is the government aware that under existing regulations as to the issue of clothing to the active militia, purchases from the department have frequently to be made by militia officers, from private funds, in order to provide uniforms for their men?
5.	If so, does the government consider it proper to exercise such discrimination in establishing regulations to govern administration principles, as operates to the financial gain of the permanent soldier and the financial loss of the active militia?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1. A minimum period of duration of wear is fixed for all articles of clothing issued to non-permanent units. If, after this period has expired, an article is considered by the inspecting officer fit for further service, such article must be continued in use until worn out.
2 and 3. Clothing issued to permanent units is divided into two classes, ' public property' and 'personal property.' All articles of public clothing have a fixed period of duration of wear, during which

time the militiaman is financially responsible for the same. They are continued in use beyond this period until condemned as unfit by a board of officers. Articles of personal clothing are issued at stated intervals as part of the original contract with the militiaman. If an article of personal clothing is in sufficiently good condition to last another period, compensation in lieu of issue is authorized.
4 and 5. No. This should not be the case, as articles of clothing with a fixed period of duration of say three years, are, generally speaking, only used for three annual camps, that is for thirty-six days. The only charges made against officers commanding non-permanent units are for deficiencies or damages due to carelessness or neglect.



PROVISIONAL SCHOOL ALLOWANCES.

Arthur Norreys Worthington: Is the government aware that the allowance made tb the officers of the active militia to cover lodging and subsistence while attending provisional schools of instruction is fixed at one dollar per diem, while that for officers of the permenent force detailed for duty at the same schools, is fixed at two dollars and fifty cents per diem? If so, what is the basis for the discrimination in favour of the permanent force and against the active militia for the same service?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: The permanent force officer makes soldiering his profession; is ordered to the provisional school, and has to be allowed a suitable rate of subsistence while away from his station.
As regards the active militia officer, the provisional school is opened in his neighbourhood at his request and to suit his convenience. Usually no allowance is paid, but, where such is granted, the same rate is paid as at the royal schools, viz., $1 per diem.



PROTECTION OF ARCHIVES.

Mr. PAQUET:: 1.	Are the archives of the various federal departments secured against fire?
2.	Are these archives now, or will they be, transferred to our Archives Building?


Mr. PUGSLEY:: 1.	The departmental buildings, at the time of erection, were of fireproof construction so far as then practised. When the west block was rebuilt after the fire, it was made entirely fireproof. The records, plans, &c., of the departments are nearly all kept in steel files, which system has been generally adopted.
2.	About 350 old plans belonging to the Department of Public Works have so far been transferred to the Archives building and others will be transferred as may be advisable.


Frederick William Borden: 



CANADIAN YEAR-BOOK.

Mr. PAQUET:: 1.	What amount has been expended during the last fiscal year for the book containing the annual statistics of Canada, called the Year-book?
2.	What was the number of French copies-distributed?
3.	To whom is this book generally sent?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	$6,951.21.
2.	$1,465.
3.	Members of the House of Commons and Senate, provincial ministers, managers of banks, consular and diplomatic representatives, libraries of public institutions, universities, classical colleges, superior schools, school inspectors, boards of trade and newspapers as per file in the reading room of the House of Commons. The mailing list is revised each year.



RURAL MAIL DELIVERY IN ALGOMA.

Mr. BOYCE:: 1.	Has the Post Office Department had any application or applications for the organization of any system of rural mail delivery in any portion of the ridings of East and West Algoma? If so, when and by whom were such applications made, in respect of what territory or districts, and what decision was arrived at with respect to them?
2.	Has the department under consideration any plans or scheme for rural mail delivery in portions of any or either of the above ridings? If so, in what portions, and what would be the nature of the service to be given to the public?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	The only application for rural delivery in East and West Algoma was for the mail route between Goulais Bay and Sault Ste. Marie. Dr. R. J. Gibson, of Sault Ste. Marie submitted a petition on the 15th December, 1908. After inquiry and report by the chief post office superintendent, the delivery was authorized on the 29th March, 1909, but the inspector has since reported that only two of the seventeen petitioners have agreed to purchase boxes and the service has not yet been established.
2.	The department is prepared to consider the establishment of rural delivery on any existing mail route on receipt of a petition from the residents on or contiguous thereto.



TARIFF COMMISSION AT MIDDLETON, NOVA SCOTIA.

Mr. JAMESON:: 1.	What members of the government composed the Tariff Commission of 1906?
2.	Did the commission sit at Middleton, Nova Scotia? If so, upon what date or dates?

3.	What subjects were then presented to the commission for consideration, and by whom, respectively ?
4.	Was the evidence taken by the commission printed and distributed? If not, why not?
5.	Did the commission make a report? If so, was same printed and distributed? If not, why not?
6.	What recommendations, if any, did the Tariff Commission make respecting the subjects brought before it at Middleton?
7.	What action did the government subsequently take in regard to said matters?


William Stevens Fielding: A committee of ministers of the Crown, commonly spoken of as the Tariff Commission, conducted inquiries into the operation of the tariff at many places throughout the Dominion in the autumn of 1905 and the beginning of 1906. The committee sat at Middleton, Nova Scotia, on January 16, 1906, and the ministers present were the Ministers of Finance, Customs and Inland Revenue (Mr. Brodeur).
All the proceedings of the committee at every point were open to the public and were widely reported in the newspapers of the day. The names of all witnesses and the full report of their evidence were submitted to this House in the session of 1906 and are on file for the information of any member who may wish to consult the reports. The House of Commons ordered that these reports be not printed. The ministers made no formal report, but the information received by them, during the inquiry, was used in the revision of the tariff at the session of 1907.



FISHERY. REVENGES IN ALBERTA AND SASKATCHEWAN.

Richard Stuart Lake: What revenue has the government derived from licenses, fees, sales, &c., in connection with the fisheries of Alberta and Saskatchewan, respectively, from 31st August, 1905, to date?


Mr. BRODEUR:: Saskatchewan-
Leases and	licenses	$3,693	00Sales	
13	ooFines	
155	10
Alberta-
Leases and	licenses	$1,170	90Fines	
67	50



MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.

[Stage Direction]
L For a return of such information as has not already been brought down, showing the purpose for which, and the persons to whom, the $18,118,133.58 mentioned in the answer of the Minister of Railways and Canals of the 17th November, 1909, was paid, the information in the foregoing to be classified under the various heads.
2. The names of the 1,434 employees referred to in the answer of the Minister of Railways and Canals of same date; the position op-cupied by each; the salary each received; the place to which each belongs: the place where each is engaged; the dates of their respective appointments, and upon whose recommendation such appointments were respectively made, and the several employees classified under the heads of the various positions they occupy.-Mr. Jameson.
For a copy of all papers, reports, correspondence, &c„ between the Department of the Interior and its officers and agencies and any other persons, relative to the s.w. 1 section 24-38-10 w. 3rd M., and the respective claims thereto of Allen R. Mudie and Thos. G. Warwick.-Mr. Lake.
For a copy of all letters, communications, petitions and correspondence with and by the government, or any minister, with regard to the acquiring or building by the government of terminal elevators at any point or points in Canada.-Mr. Campbell.
For a return showing in detail all the sums of money expended by the government of Canada in connection with the imperial defence conference held at London, England, during the present year, with the names of all persons to whom payments were made in connection with said conference, the date and reasons of payment and the department interested.-Mr. Monk.
For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, and other papers between any person or persons and the governement or any member thereof, or any official thereof, with reference to the dredging of the Napanee river.-Mr. Uriah Wilson.
For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams, documents and correspondence with reference to or in any way concerning the installation of free mail delivery in the city of Sydney, N.S.-Mr. Maddin.
For a copy of all correspondence, documents and reports since the 1st January, 1908, between our immigration agents in Belgium and the Minister of the Interior.-Mr. Paquet.
For a copy of all correspondence, reports, documents and papers touching the matter of the salmon fishery of Salmon river, Digby County, N.S., and the fishways or passes in said river.-Mr. Jameson.
For a return showing all moneys paid by the government in connection with the surrender of St. Peter's reserve, to whom paid, and for what; also, all moneys paid in connection with the moving of Indians to the new reserve on Lake Winnipeg, to whom paid, and for what.-Mr. Bradbury,
For a return showing the amount received by the Minister of Finance under Land Titles Act, section 159, chapter 110, R.S.C., 57 and 58 Victoria, chapter 28, section 116; how such fund is invested under section 160 of the same Act; the amount of interest which has accrued from said fund; and the amount paid for losses arising from bad titles guaranteed by said fund.-Mr. Macdonell.
For a copy of all letters, communications, petitions and correspondence with and by the
[Stage Direction]
government, or any minister, with regard to the appointment of some one to fill the vacancy on the Board of_ Railway Commissioners, caused by the demise of the late Hon. Thos. Greenway.-Mr. Campbell.
For a return showing how many officials of the government, or of the Senate^ or House of Commons, have residences or living rooms in Ottawa supplied by the Crown, with the estimated yearly value_ and the rent charged in each case.-Mr. Blain.

Mr. HUGH GUTHRIE (South Wellington) moved:: That in the opinion of this House it is advisable that a commission of inquiry be forthwith appointed to investigate the needs of Canada in respect to technical education, and to report on ways and means by which these needs may be best met.
He said: During the session of this House in 1907, I had the honour to move a motion framed in terms very similar to those of the motion which I have now the honour of bringing to the attention of the House. But on that occasion the motion came up for discussion at a very late hour of the evening, and before a very thin attendance of members; the discussion was exceedingly limited, and the subject did not, I think, receive the attention which its importance deserved. I do not think that upon that occasion I was able to impress either the House or the government with the soundness of my argument, or with the propriety or necessity for the motion, strongly as I was able to impress myself. I may say that the views which I then expressed I still hold; and in presenting my case on this occasion, I shall discuss it from the same point of view as I did on the former occasion.
I hope that on the present occasion the discussion may become more general, as I am fully aware that there are many hon. members in this House far better able to discuss it than I am, men who have greater experience, more information, fuller knowledge in regard to the subject of technical education than I have. I bring it forward on this occasion, as I did on the former occasion, at the request of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada and of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, two very prominent and important bodies in this community. Both those bodies have passed very strong resolutions upon the subject, and have honoured me with the request that I bring the matter once more to the attention of this House.
The Canadian Manufacturers' Association has not only taken action in concrete form upon the subject itself, but has gone to the trouble of consulting many of the men who are at the head of the leading educational institutions in this country, for the purpose Mr. BRODEUR.
of obtaining their views upon the proposal contained in this motion. I think almost without exception the association has received replies from those men who are leaders of education in this country, commending the course proposed in this motion. The association has also sought to find the opinion of the leading Boards of Trade and Chambers of Commerce in Canada on this question, and has consulted probably all the Boards of Trade and Chambers of Commerce from east to west, in all towns and cities of any consequence. Out of fifty or sixty communications received from these bodies, I think, without exception, they have passed resolutions in favour of the proposal contained in the resolution. Furthermore, the Manufacturers' Association, realizing perhaps what was the most serious objection to the proposal, have taken the trouble of consulting the premiers of the various provinces of Canada as to the necessity and propriety of the motion and as to the question of its being brought up in this parliament, and I believe that without a single exception the premiers throughout the various self-governing provinces in Canada have replied consenting to the proposal, or, at all events, offering no objection to the appointment of a commission by this government for the purpose of making an inquiry such as is asked for in this motion. I would like, for the sake of placing them upon the record, to read some of the resolutions which have been passed by the various bodies which I have mentioned. They are particularly pointed, and, to begin with, I would like to place before the House the resolution of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, which is in the following words:
Resolved, that inasmuch as the natural resources of Canada in its rivers, in its forests and in its farm lands-are of immeasurable extent and commercial value, and are urgently calling for the best and most approved means of development and utilization; and whereas the present methods of production require further scientific stimulus-more especially in the mechanical branches of a broadly ' national character, through a proper and special educational system; be it resolved, that this Trades and Labour Congress of Canada place itself on record as in favour of the establishment of industrial technical schools throughout the Dominion, and it is hereby an imperative instruction to the executive of this body to use its best efforts* at an early date, in urging the importance of the subject upon the serious attention ol the Dominion government with a view to the establishment of such a system of special education throughout Canada.
Then, the Trades and Labour Congress, in addition to the resolution which I have just read, have presented memorials to the government on more than one occasion in the same direction, and I quote from one

of the memorials which have been presented the following language:
The workmen of Canada are strongly of opinion that the welfare and development of Canada demand some large scheme of technical education. It is not a matter alone for the welfare of the workmen or of the employer, hut of the whole Canadian people. We want Canada to be foremost in the arts and manufactures, and we are just at that stage of industrial development when the institution of technical schools would be ot most value.
The Manufacturers' Association of Canada has passed a resolution very similar in terms to the resolution which I have just read, but I do not find that I have before me a copy of it, although it was quoted by me in the remarks which I made to the House in the session of 1907 and is upon ' Hansard.' The various boards of trade and chambers of commerce from the Atlantic to the Pacific have passed upon this question, but, without reading all the resolutions, I take that passed by the Halifax Board of Trade as a fair sample of the resolutions which have been passed by the other boards and chambers. It is in the following language:
Be it resolved, that in view of tlie facts that the foremost nations of the world have definitely proven that the technical education is the greatest weapon of modern industrial warfare, and that Canada's immense natural resources should be intelligently and efficiently developed by the most modern methods, and whereas, Canada owes it to Canadians to furnish them the technical training adequate jo _ carry on such development, that the Dominion government be requested to appoint an able commission of investigation to ascertain the best measures for establishing technical education in this Dominion of Canada.
I quote these various resolutions for the purpose of showing that the demand foi technical education is by no means local or sectional, but is entirely national in its character.
During the last thirty or forty years great changes have taken place in the educational methods of many of the older countries of the world. Notably is this the fact in the case of Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Great Britain and the United States. Each of these countries has calmly sat down to consider its educational system, and each will be found to-day expending very large sums of money, not upon the old scholastic routine, but more particularly in looking after the actual needs of its great industrial classes for the purpose, in the first instance, of enabling the individual citizen the better to gain a livelihood, and, in the second place, for the purpose of enabling the nation itself to maintain its proper place in the markets of the world. The demand for technical education on the 33
part of the craftsman, the artisan and the workman of this country arises, no doubt, from the laudable desire of the mechanic to better himself in his own art or his own trade, in the hope thereby that he might increase his remuneration, and in the hope thereby that he might perform his work under less laborious conditions than hitherto. The demand for a system of technical education on the part of the employer or the manufacturer arises from the fact that in recent years the manufacturers of this country have from experience found that it is a difficult matter for them, either in the home market or in foreign markets, to compete against manufacturers of countries where there is a large staff of technically instructed artisans at their disposal.
I am well aware, Mr. Speaker, that perhaps the most formidable objection which *can be made to the proposal which I have the honour to lay before the House, will be the constitutional objection. The objection will be that under the constitution undeT which we in Canada are governed the whole question of education, by section 93 of the British North America Act, is a matter for the exclusive jurisdiction of the various provinces, and at first blush, upon a superficial examination of the question, that objection might be most formidable, indeed, might prove an absolute barrier to any action upon this subject by this House. However, I think that upon an examination of the Act and proper appreciation of what is meant by technical education the House will agree with me that there are many things that this parliament might do in regard to technical education which will in no way infringe upon the rights or the exclusive jurisdiction of the various provinces under section 93 of the British North America Act. Unfortunately, the term used, I think universally, in the English speaking world, to describe this particular kind of training, is technical education. A more correct phrase, to my mind, would be industrial training and probably, if the phrase were industrial training and not technical education, there would be less objection from the point of view of those who maintain that this is a matter now which infringes upon the right of the provinces in the matter of education. I am not positive that I can quote the exact language of section 93 of the British North America Act, but its provision generally is that, in regard to education the provinces shall have exclusive jurisdiction.
In answer to the objection upon the constitutional ground, I would state, in the first place, that one must consider the exact or precise meaning of the word 'education' as used in the 93rd section of the British North America Act. That Act was passed as far back as 1867. At that



time there was no such thing as technical education known within the confines of British America, and so technical education or industrial training did not enter into the contemplation of the men who framed that section. I submit that the word education as expressed in that section must receive its plain ordinary meaning, which is that course of instruction which we give to the youth of this country in the public schools, the high schools, the collegiate institutes and the universities; a training in languages, classics and moderns, in mathematics, in arts, in science and kindred subjects. It is entirely a scholastic training, one destined to turn out cultured and refined scholars in the Dominion, and that I submit is the meaning of the word education as used in the 93rd section. But technical.education is-an entirely different thing. It is a matter of economics rather than of culture; it is a matter of dollars and cents rather than of scholarship or refinement. That is the distinction I draw between the two, and in order to bring that distinction more plainly to the attention of the hon. members who hitherto have probably treated the subject with more or less indifference, let me place before the House the ordinary curriculum which is prescribed in the average institute of technology, whether it be in Europe, in Britain or in the United States. We all know the ordinary curricula of the colleges and universities of the countrv, but the curriculum of an institute of technology is an entirely different matter. In the average curriculum of a technical institute there will be a department of physics, including such subjects as light, heat, sound, electricity and magnetism; a department of hydrostatics treating of such things as liquids, gases, hydraulic engineering and machinery; a department of mechanics, treating of force, motion, gravitation and kindred subjects; a department of chemistry, where chemistry will be taught in all its branches, embracing theory and practical research; a department of mathematics, where mathematics will be taught so far as is required for practical application to scientific work; a department of free hand and industrial drawing and design; a department of machine construction and pattern making; a department of architectural design and decoration, clav modelling and leather cutting, and a complete course in mineralogy, metallurgy, geology, and engineering in all its branches.


Mr. SPEOULE.: Are not all these subjects now taught in the higher branches of education?


Hugh Guthrie: In a few institutions, yes. It may be argued that all the subjects I have enumerated are at the pres-Mr. GUTHRIE.
ent day taught in some way or other in the schools of the country. We know that the University of Toronto has its faculty of applied science, that McGill University has a very elaborate faculty of applied science, that Queens University has its department of mines, and that other universities are similarly equipped, so that it is possible for one to obtain instruction in almost any of the subjects I have enumerated at one or otheT of the great Canadian universities. But, Sir, that is accounted for by the fact that these universities have gone beyond what was the original intention of their founders; they have deemed it necessary in order to meet the needs of the people to go beyond the scholastic or academic training which in former years was considered sufficient. But, Sir, these institutions are only for the favoured few, and it is for that reason that I urge the view upon the House which I now do. The demand for technical education in Canada does not come from the children of parents who can give them a university education; it does not come from the rich, it comes from the moulder and the machinist, the metal workeT and the wood worker, the w eaver and the spinner, the shipwright and the millwright, the stonemason and the bricklayer. These are the men who are today making demands, not only upon this government but upon the provincial legislatures, for a more advanced system of industrial training.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. gentleman pretend to argue that when the British North America Act was enacted these subjects were not included in the higher branches of education then?


Hugh Guthrie: I think I can say without fear of contradiction that every subject I have read to the House as part of the curriculum of an institute of technology, with the single exception of chemistry, would not be found in the ordinary curriculum of any Canadian university in 1867. These subjects have only been taught in the university course within 15 or 20 years at the most indeed it is only within the last ten years that faculties of applied science in our universities have become of any very great importance. But, my argument simply is that when the word education was placed in the British North America, Act it meant the scholastic training to which I have referred and it did not mean industrial training at all. But, another answer to any objections which may be taken upon constitutional grounds as against the federal government carrying into effect such a motion as I present, may fairly be found in the language of section 91 of the British North America Act. Section 91 prescribes among other things that in

matters concerning trade and commerce this parliament shall have jurisdiction, and I submit that the question of industrial training is really a matter pertaining to the trade and commerce of the Dominion. It vitally affects the trade and commerce of Canada, it vitally affects our manufactured product as to its quality, its quantity and its means of transportation. It also affects the question of obtaining foreign markets for our products and the prices to be obtained. Indeed the Department of Trade and Commerce is to-day carrying on what in the German empire is a distinct branch of their technical training, because our department is sending out trade agents to various parts of the world to secure trade and to make reports on trade conditions. I submit then that the . training meant by the term technical education is a matter which closely affects the commercial standing of the country, that it is a matter which this parliament might well deal with, and that it cannot be open to the objection that it comes within the term 'education' in section 93 and so belongs to the provinces. Let me submit a parallel case. At the city of Kingston we have the Royal Military College, where this government is actually engaged in the work of tuition. A general education is afforded in that institution. They teach mathematics, languages, English literature, general subjects. They give a man a good ail-round education apart entirely from military requirements. It may be asked, why does the government do that in the face of section 93 of the British North America Act? It is immediately answered that this is a matter of militia and defence, over which this government has exclusive jurisdiction. Might we not say the same of industrial training as related to the trade and commerce of the country? We engage in the work of tuition at Kingston simply as a sort of adjunct to militia and defence; why not engage in industrial training as an adjunct to our trade and commerce?
I think I may fairly ask the House to consider another answer to the argument that the adoption of this motion would be an encroachment upon the constitutional rights of the provinces of this Dominion, that is, that the question is of national concern, and not a local or sectional matter. Let us see how other countries have dealt with this question, and what they include under the term technical education. No other country so far as I know has a constitutional Act precisely similar to the British North America Act; but there are other countries in which are applied general principles very similar to those under which we live in Canada. Notably is this the case in Switzerland, where there is a federal authority with a number of autonomous cantonal governments. Notably also is this the case in the United States, under 33i
their federal system, with their state governments. I might also point to the great empire of Germany, which is made up of a great number of states or principalities, with a federal authority presiding over all. In each of these countries industrial training is looked on entirely as a national matter, not as a state or municipal matter, and not as a matter of education in the sense of scholarship.
Germany has been the great pioneer, the great _ progenitor, in this work. The first technical institute in Germany was established at Carlsruhe in 1825, another at Munich in 1827, another at Dresden in 1828, and another at Stuttgart in 1832. These were the pioneer schools of industrial training, no other country in the world having adopted the system up to that time. But the work that Germany started 85 years ago has spread enormously until to-dav it has the most complex system of industrial training known to the civilized world. That system is briefly as follows. They have their public schools very similar to those in this and other countries, and in connection with the public schools they have a system of manual training very similar to what we have in the public schools of Ontario and probably in those of other provinces. It is not with the manual training part of the work that my resolution deals. That may be looked on more as a matter of education in the strict sense of the word. Indeed, I do not think the Trades and Labour Congress is in favour of manual training, because it has a tendency to turn out on the country a great many unfinished mechanics. After the public school course has been taken by the Gerrnan youth, he selects his trade or occupation, and, as an apprentice, is eligible for entrance into one of the technical continuation schools. This is really the first step in his industrial training. There are something like 2,200 of these schools in Germany to-day, attended by over 325,000 pupils. After having taken a course in a continuation school, the pupil is eligible for entrance to a higher grade technical institute, or specialized trade school.


George Eulas Foster: What is the length of that course?


Hugh Guthrie: It varies from two to three years consecutively, a great deal of the instruction being given at night. Some of the schools are free, and in some a small fee is charged. At the conclusion of that course, on which the German youth enters as an apprentice, he comes out as a more or less finished mechanic. But there is a much higher grade in the specialized trade schools, to which he then becomes eligible. In Germany there are 524 of these, subdivided as follows:	Schools of mechanics,
25; schools of mining, 58; schools of architecture and construction, 53; schools of

metallurgy, 10; schools of textiles, 117; schools of wood-carving, 24; schools of industrial art and design, 27; schools of ocean navigation, 41; schools of fresh water navigation, 52; schools of shipbuilding, 5. According to the curriculum of an ordinary building trade school, we find that a man who is otherwise looked on as a very good mechanic is taught there, stone-cutting and laying, brick making, plastering, carpentry, scientific construction, uses, strength and value of materials, designing, modelling and ornamentation, heating and ventilation, road and bridge building, drainage and irrigation. In that whole curiculum there is not a single subject that one would say *came within the definition of the word education as used in the 93rd section of the British North America Act. The course of instruction in a textile school covers the whole process from the lowest grade of primary weaving to textile and mechanical engineering. This is taught not only in the 117 textile schools, but also in 8 universities. The course including weaving, spinning, bleaching, dyeing, machinery, properties of raw materials, manufacturing of all woven and all spun materials. In the curriculum of one of these textile schools there is no subject taught that one could argue came within the meaning of the word education as used in the 93rd section of our Constitutional Act. Take the curriculum of the art trade school and these schools are schools of the highest consequence. They are not schools in the strict sense of the word, but deal more with commercial art, more with ornamentation and design. The courses there consist of drawing, modelling, ornamentation, painting, furniture designing, wood carving, pottery and leather cutting. These are the highest classes of trade schools, but in addition they have in Germany nine technical universities and three technical mining universities.


George Eulas Foster: Axe there stated courses in these schools?


Hugh Guthrie: I do not know the length of time. I have not come across that in my researches, but I fancy there must be some stated .time and system of examination. To show the length to which the -system has been carried in Germany, take the Principality of Wurtemburg, with a less population than Ontario, and you will find that in Wurtemburg there is one state university, one technical school, one textile school, one mechanical school, one building trades school, three weaving schools, two hundred and thirty-one industrial improvement schools, eighteen domestic schools for women, a commercial college and an agricultural high school. And all these are in but one state or province of the German empire, with a population less than that of Ontario. That great institute of technol-Mr. GUTHRIE.
-ogy instituted at Berlin and maintained entirely by the empire itself-the Berlin Royal Technical College-has 140 professors, 260 assistants, 3,500 students, and gives courses in engineering, chemistry, metallurgy, and there are besides free museums, free art galleries and free laboratories. The expenditure on technical education and industrial training in Germany amounts to a tremendous sum annually.
One question for us to consider is how is the cost of all these met? These are maintained according to the following contributions: Tuition fees constitute 23 per cent of the cost, municipal grants for school funds and other donations 49 per cent, and the German empire itself contributes 28 per cent. I mention this to show that in the empire of Germany, the question of industrial training is looked at as a great national undertaking and not as a local matter at all.


Robert Laird Borden: Are these schools all under the control of the empire or of the individual states?	-


Hugh Guthrie: I cannot inform my hon. friend on that point, but from such facts as have been brought before me, I think the control rests with the municipalities, though with regard to some universities, not only are they [DOT]controlled but they are maintained to the extent of 28 per cent by the empire.
It may be asked what has that system resulted in? In the first place it has resulted in furnishing a population with a larger percentage of highly skilled artisans than can be found in any other country. It has resulted in transferring some of the trade heretofore enjoyed by other countries to the German empire. Its results can be found in the records of the manufacture of aniline dyes. Twenty-five years ago the dye stuffs of the- whole world were manufactured in Great Britain. To-day the dye stuffs of the whole world are manufactured in Germany. This is one of the direct results of the work of the German students in the technical laboratories of the German empire. So with the coal tar products. Today Germany controls the whole trade in these products, and the reason is that she has discovered improved processes through the researches in her laboratories. In textiles, the German trade became so enormous about 1890 that the merchants and manufacturers of Great Britain, ^ at^ their own expense, appointed a commission to inquire into the conditions and discover the reason for the increase in German trade and the diminution in their own. That commission reported that the reason was to be found in the improved machinery, methods and higher standing of the German mechanical workman. And that report being submitted to the trade at Manchester,

steps were at once taken to institute technical education, and a scheme has gradually been developed, not only in Manchester, but in other parts of Great Britain.
So in the iron and steel trade. Twenty-five years ago the British exports of manufactured iron and steel were five and six times as great as those of Germany. Today, according to a recent article in the London ' Financial News,' German exports are almost on a par with those of England, and it is pointed out that raw material is more expensive in Germany than in England. According to this article, wages are higher perhaps in Germany than in England, and yet the German trade in iron and steel is rapidly equalling that of Great Britain. What is the reason? It is not to be found in the tariff legislation of either country but in the greater skill and improved methods of Germany arising from the development of her system of industrial training.
Turn for a moment to Switzerland as a fair example. It is made up of a number of cantons, with a federal government and constitution somewhat similar to our own In 1901 Switzerland spent, in round numbers, a million francs on technical education; 75 per cent was contributed by the various cantons and 25 per cent by the federal government.
Let us take a glance at the United States. Up to 1862 they did little or nothing with regard to technical education. During that year Congress passed an Act which provided that a substantial land grant should be given each state which would establish colleges with special courses in agriculture and mechanical arts. This offer was taken advantage of by many of the states. The State of New York received a land grant of some 800,000 acres, Pennsylvania 700,000 acres, Ohio 400,000, and other states lesser quantities. The Act was supplemented in 1890 by an Act which provided that each of the states which had established colleges, with these particular courses in agriculture and the mechanical arts, should receive a cash grant of $15,000 for the year 1890, and an additional grant of $1,000 for each succeeding year until the grant for each particular college should reach the sum of $25,000. That system of land grant and money grant has been in operation since that day, with the result that the federal government of the United States has paid in cash to such colleges the sum of $15,000,000 in round numbers and has given land grants aggregating about $16,000,000. The cash grant paid last year by the federal government of the United States to such colleges was about $2,500,000. What has that resulted in? It has resulted in the establishment of about sixty technical schools or colleges. In 44 of these colleges, courses are provided in mechanical engineering; in
38, in electrical engineering; in 37, in civil engineering; in 21, in mining engineering; in 6, in architecture; in 4, in metallurgical, technical and railway engineering. It is true that in all these cases where money has been granted by the federal authority in the United States, it has been to some college or state university where these courses were added to the ordinary courses of the university for the purpose, no doubt, of obtaining the land or money grant; but that does not affect the question and viewed from a constitutional point, it is of no importance whether the institute of technology be by itself or be an adjunct of a college or a university. If we undertook to establish it in Canada purely and simply as a matter of industrial training, it would not be necessary in any sense of the word-


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Are you aware that in the Act making these appropriations the federal government say:
Nothing in this Act shall interfere with the right of the state to deal with this particular matter.
-acknowledging in full the state's right of control.


Hugh Guthrie: I was not aware of that, but I think it would be a very reasonable provision, and I am sure that no state or province would object to such federal grant.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The federal grant does not interfere with the autonomy of the state.


Hugh Guthrie: I think we might adopt some safeguard of that kind in this country. We find to-day that industrial training has been inaugurated practically all over the eastern and middle states of America. The New England states are full of technical institutes, and they have been of great benefit to American industry. One recent achievement in the schools of Massachusetts has been in regard to Canadian wool, which had for many years been regarded as a coarse wool fit only for the manufacture of blankets and carpets. Not long ago I had occasion to discuss this question and the question of leather goods with a man from Massachusetts who told me that, through the work carried on in one of the technical institutes in Massachusetts, it was found that the coarse wool of Canada could be used to a very large extent in the manufacture of the best quality of tweed and worsted they are producing in the United States, and Canadian wool is now being used in the proportion of about 70 per cent to 30 per cent of other wools and other materials in the manufacture of these high class cloths. That is one result, perhaps a minor one, of a system of industrial training and industrial investigation.

In Great Britain practically nothing was done in reference to industrial training until the Manchester manufacturers and merchants took the matter up in 1891 in the manner I have outlined. In the next year the British goverment appointed a commission to visit Germany and the United States, and I think France and Belgium, for the purpose of acquiring the fullest possible information in regard to industrial training. The result of these inquiries was that the question of industrial training attracted the attention of the great manufacturers of Great Britain and a large number of very successful technical institutes have been established there and are attended by a large number of workmen. Indeed, some British manufacturers have gone the length of offering bonuses to their workmen to take a course in some one or other of these technical institutes. One result of this movement on the part of Great Britain came to my attention recently in discussing this question with the same man who gave me the information on the question of wool. He said that until recently the United States was certainly supreme in regard to the manufacture of boots and shoes. They not only supplied their own market, but largely the Canadian market and very largely the British market. He said that recently British manufacturers of boots and shoes have been making articles of a quality that will sell in the United States and certain consignments have .come in and have been sold in the United States. How was that done? That was done by the British manufacturer bringing from the United States certain American machinery, American processes of manufacture and American lasts, placing them in Great Britain, teaching the work in some one or other of the technical institutes of Great Britain and producing an article which resembles in appearance to all intents and purposes, the American shoe, but is of a superior quality. My information on that subject came about a year ago from a man from Massachusetts and I notice in this morning's newspaper that the editor of the Toronto ' Globe ', speaking before the Canadian Club at Ottawa on Saturday, referred to this same question of the manufacture of leather goods from Great Britain being sold in the United States, this information having been gained last summer in Great Britain, mine having come from a man residing in Massachusetts. Information coming from two points so diverse is, I think, probably reliable. The change that has taken place in the shoe trade is certainly to be attributed to the courses of technical training which the British workman has undergone in one or other of the technical institutes of Great Britain.
May I point to one other answer which I think is a complete reply to any objection Mr. GUTHRIE.
that might be raised on constitutional grounds, and that is that the Dominion government has already to a considerable extent entered upon the field of industrial training and that so far no objection has been raised. In regard to agriculture, we have established a system of technical education under this government in the experimental farm that is conducted here in Ottawa. Many of the institutes of Germany and some of the United States which are purely and simply technical institutes, do nothing more than what is done at the experimental' farm here. They carry on experiments as to new and improved machinery and as to new processes, they issue bulletins and in that way inform the public upon these various matters-just the work that is being carried on at the experimental farm. That is certainly a work of instruction, and if you like, a work of education. It is educating Canadian farmers, it is done for that purpose and has had the effect of raising the standard of farming very greatly throughout the Dominion of Canada. What this motion asks is that this government will do in regard to manufacturers, or with regard to our natural resources, just what it has been and is doing with regard to agriculture. It is carrying on technical work, it is engaged in technical education in regard to agriculture, and we ask that the same principles precisely be applied to other natural resources of Canada, and also to the manufactured products of Canada. I mention also the work of education which we are carrying on at the Royal Military College at Kingston to-day. We are carrying on also work at the School of Navigation at Kingston, teaching the science of navigation. That is a technical work, and in the German empire they have a large number of schools specially appointed for the work of teaching navigation pure and simple which this government has engaged in. Then we have two marine biological research stations carrying on work at Gaspe and on the Georgian Bay. This government, through the Intercolonial railroad, is indirectly providing for educational work at the University of McGill; the Intercolonial railway makes an annual grant to the Faculty of 'Applied Science of McGill University for carrying on experiments and work in testing different materials. That is an indirect contribution of this parliament to the University of McGill College. Then we are carrying on extensive experiments and a good deal of research work under Prof. Haanel. He has been investigating various ways of smelting Canadian ores. That is the very work which is taught 'at all the greater technical institutes in Germany and the United States. He has been engaged recently in carrying on experiments with a view of rendering the large and valuable peat lands of Ontario of some value. That

is a work of technical education and technical investigation, which we ask should be continued. Those are works which the Dominion government is carrying on to-day, and carrying on successfully for the good of the people. We ask that the work be continued.
In what way would you suggest? I have not at my disposal or within my knowledge all the avenues in which the government might put forth some effort, but I think it certainly could make money grants to institutions that are carrying on this work.
I think they could, as the German empire has done, establish experimental stations and museums throughout Canada, where the work might be carried on with new and improved machinery, in new and improved processes of manufacture. They might carry their investigations further in regard to electrical smelting, and the treatment of all native Canadian ores. They might carry on successfully serious experiments in regard to the great pulpwood growth of this country, in the way of seeing how this could be rendered a greater national asset than it is now, how that could be best manufactured and best transported. They could carry further their investigation, particularly in regard to naval construction and architecture. This is a mater which . has been taken up very largely by Germany. Germany has five ship-building schools and about 100 navigation schools; whereas twenty-five years ago it had none. It is now building a number of its own craft, twenty-five years ago it did not build any. That is an achievement in Germany also due most directly to the result of technical education and training.
I know it is sometimes skid that this is a matter which only pertains to a few of the larger cities, perhaps, and to bodies of workmen in those various cities. But I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that in the villages and towns of this country there is a tremendous demand for opportunity on the part of our workingmen to improve themselves in the various trades and crafts. Time was not so many years ago when a certain institution in the United States, called the Scranton Correspondence School, was looked upon as more or less of a, joke, as one of those sharp Yankee money making concerns which, by expensive advertising, would be able to gull the public and rake in the people's money. However, from what I know of that institution in Scranton, it is by no means a joke, and while it is a very successful commercial undertaking, and pays most handsome dividends, it has disseminated a tremendous amount of valuable information, not only in the United States, but in Canada. I was surprised to hear from a man interested in that school, that last year it drew from Canadian workingmen and artisans nearly
$800,000 in fees for tuition, and from the city of Montreal alone last year over $100,000. That money was drawn directly from the pockets of mechanics and artisans in this_ country, from men who were endeavouring by all means in their power to secure what is necessary to give them perfect knowledge of their craft, and who have no opportunity either to go to McGill, or the University of Toronto, where schools in science are certainly afforded to the children of the rich. I am glad to say that in Montreal an institution of technology has been founded. I believe that when it is at work it will have the effect immediately of keeping that $100,000 of the workmen and mechanics of Montreal within the city of Montreal instead of sending it over to the Scranton School of Correspondence and others. The Scranton school is only one of many schools; but it is the most prominent of those in the United States, and has been the subject of a special report by the British commission who went thoroughly into the institutions in the United States. I am glad also that in Nova Scotia a very large institution has been opened, and work is to be carried on there, I trust, on a very large scale. In Ontario, too, something has been done. But if we compare what has been done by any of the provinces of Canada with what has been accomplished in the little principality of Wurtemburg, we can see in a moment what is yet to be done in Canada in regard to this great question.
Now I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the passage of a motion like this cannot in any way prejudice the right or interest of any provincial authority. If such a commission were appointed, a small commission of five or six capable men, to visit Great Britain, and several European countries, and the United States, the expense involved would not be considerable. If it should turn out as a result of their investigation that there is nothing which this parliament could do in the way of furthering the great cause of industrial training, we will know it; that is one thing. But if the information will be of value to the various provinces of Canada, the money will not be lost, and I am personally satisfied that there are a great many things this government can do. I have not sufficient time to enumerate them, but I simply place before the House such facts as I have been able to gain from conversation, from the ordinary means of research. I know that I am but poorly equipped to discuss the question intelligently as it should be discussed. I sincerely hope that some other hon. members will continue the debate, as I know that there are those in this House who are well aware of all the facts and all the circumstances, and far better able to discuss the subject than I am.


Mr. ALEXANDER HAGGART (Winnipeg).: I am sure, Mr.'Speaker, that this House is under a debt of gratitude to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) for the able address he has just delivered. It is rich with information and replete with reasonings, conclusive reasonings, it seems to me, in affirmation of the proposition laid down in this resolution. 1 think this is one of the best things that have emanated from the other side of the House this session, perhaps because it was not inspired by a Liberal caucus or by a Liberal government. I have great pleasure in paying a personal compliment to the hon. gentleman who has brought this matter before the House. If this resolution were amended as suggested and instead of the word ' technical education ' the words ' industrial training ' were inserted I think it would better meet the occasion. As to the jurisdiction of this House, it has been said, and truly, that this parliament is doing to-day for the farmers what we are asking it to do for the industrial population. We are, by our experimental farms and by the machinery and efforts of the Department of Agriculture, acquiring information which is being used by the different agricultural colleges and other institutions. Even the public schools which are under the control of the provinces are availing themselves of this knowledge. In Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and all the old;r countries, they are doing this work of sheer necessity. For centuries their natural resources have been developed and their increase of wealth and importance come from the work of the hand and the brain. In our country it is perhaps different at the present time. The farmer, the merchant, the holder of bonds, the possessor of property finds, without any individual effort on his own part, that, by reason of the development going on around him, his possessions in four or five years have doubled in value. We may expect greater results if this question is taken up at the present time. If we can make one acre of the farmer's land produce what an acre and a half formerly yielded, if we can make two pairs of hands do the work formerly done by three pairs, that adds so much to the general wealth of the country. A trained industrial people is one of the best assets that any country can have, and if I were to look for some phrase to illumine or brighten this thought I would take the words of Whittier who, when paying a tribute to his own -state, does not refer to the visible or latent wealth of the forest, the field or the mine, to the accumulation of capital or to the vast volume of commerce, but he savs that:
The riches of the commonwealth Are clear, strong minds and hearts of health: Mr. GUTHRIE.
And more to her than gold or gain,
The cunning hand and cultured brain.
I do not think there will be any objection from the different provinces on the score that this parliament is exceeding its jurisdiction. If the parliament is animated by the spirit of the people of Winnipeg, the city which I have the honour to represent, I am sure that its action will meet with the approval of the people generally. The city of Winnipeg has dumped down upon it a large foreign population. There are something like fifty or sixty languages spoken there, and the people of Winnipeg have established night schools during the winter season at a cost of thousands of dollars to themselves. There was nothing to compel them to do that, but they are satisfied to do it and there is no objection to it on the part of the citizens although it considerably increases the taxes. This motion does not commit the House to the principle of technical education or to any other principle. All it asks for is a commission of inquiry, a commission composed of the most competent men entirely clear of politics to get all the information available upon the subject and if they gain that information, whether in Europe, or Massachusetts, or in any other place, it will be available for the benefit of all the province and every educational institution in the different provinces of the Dominion.


Mr. RALPH SMITH (Nanaimo).: Mr. Speaker, I agree with my hon. friend from Winnipeg (Mr. Haggart) that my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) has made one of the most important contributions to the discussions of this House that has ever been made in my experience as a member and that he has dealt with a subject second to none in relation to the industrial and commercial development of this country. He has given us a very exhaustive explanation of technical education and of its application in the older European countries. He has given us some very exhaustive and lengthy reasons and arguments why technical education, so-called, should not be read into the conditions of the constitution which provides that authority with respect to education shall remain in the hands of the provinces.
I want to emphasize those reasons and perhaps my hon. friend will permit me to add a few more practical reasons why this government should be prepared to take up this question as set forth in this resolution, appoint this commission, provide an appropriation and control the technical education of this country. I can quite understand how the government will be naturally cautious before taking upon itself financial responsibility which constitutional authority may declare legitimately was intended to belong to the provinces. When we consider the extent of this country, the enormous cost of its development in matters

appertaining exclusively to the authority of the Dominion parliament that the provinces cannot manage for Canada, I do not blame the Dominion authority for exercising some little care before it takes increased responsibility in reference to expenditures upon questions of education. But, I agree entirely with my hon. friend from South Wellington that the question of technical education is not associated or related to the question of general education, which, in my opinion, was placed by the constitution under the exclusive control of the provinces. My hon. friend made reference to two or three kinds of industrial training. He referred to the manual training schools and to the system of technical education. Considerable confusion has existed in the minds of some people as to the difference between these classes of education. I only know them as they exist in England and I noticed, as my hon. friend pointed out, that the labour organizations of this country had declared by resolution that they were opposed to any system of manual training, because a system ol manual training turned out mechanics who were brought into competition with the ordinary artisans of the country. My hon. friend presented a resolution from an important body of men. Trade schools, as they exist in England, are schools that take the place of the old system of apprenticeship. The system of apprenticeship in England was based upon a contract between the man who owned a business and the son of some other man to the effect that the apprentice would confine himself to this man's business for a given number of years. The system of trade schools was inaugurated in England as a substitute for the apprenticeship system and in these schools young men are taught the specialties of a particular trade. If a man wants to be a carpenter he is instructed in these trade schools in everything that appertains to that calling and so it is with respect to all other trades. I want to put myself on record as being entirely opposed to the conclusion of anybody or organization of la-bourmen who would object to a system of manual training.
Some horn MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


Ralph Smith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I go further and I say that I am astonished that any organization of labour men should oppose any system of education. In doing so they evince the very spirit that prompted certain classes of wealthy Englishmen, sixty or seventy years ago, to oppose in the British parliament appropriations of money for the advancement of education. These wealthy Englishmen proclaimed that it would be a serious disadvantage if the rural communities were educated, and there are yet men living in England who made the statement on the floor of the House
of Commons that if the artisans of England had a knowledge of history and science then representative government would be in danger. I say, Sir, that the spirit which actuated these men of the classes in England to restrict the intelligence of the masses is the self same spirit which prompts a labour organization to seek to restrict manual training in this country. Why ! above all others, labour men ought to stand for everything which conducts to developing the intelligence of the great masses of the community. A few years ago Andrew Carnegie gave a contribution of $50,000 to the city of Ottawa for a library, and the labour associations of this city passed resolutions against accepting that contribution for the reason that they declared the money was gained from the blood and sweat of the men whom Carnegie employed in his mills. At that time I wrote a letter to the Citizen over my own signature repudiating that contention and I held that if the tyrannies which makes it possible for capitalisits to secure unreasonable divisions of the profits of a business is ever to be subdued it can only be subdued by increasing the intelligence and knowledge of the workingmen and using such donations as that given by Carnegie towards that end. I am opposed to all kinds of restrictions, and when it comes to restricting the intelligence of my fellow men I am its avowed and open enemy.
Now, I want to give the government two or three practical reasons why they should support this resolution and appoint the commission which it asks for. My first reason has been expressed by my hon. friend from Winnipeg, and it is because technical training contributes to the development of the country, to its increased wealth, and to the protection of its citizens. My hon. friend (Mr. Haggart) said th it technically trained artisans were the greatest asset of any country, and let me add that no country in the world to-day is suffering a greater disadvantage in the development of its resources than is Canada because of this. She has to come into competition in the open markets of the world with the older nations who have workingmen trained under high class systems of technical education, and Canada has to draw her supplies not from the men who are the most technical in the old countries, but generally speaking from the men who are denied the same high educational advantages in this country. When I think of the rapid development of our country and when I see the few facilities for industrial training that we have, it has been a great surprise to me how our large industrial concerns and especially the railways, have ever managed to equip themselves with the number of trained men

required to carry on their enterprise. On the railways of Canada you have ashighly trained men as are to be found in any craft, and considering the numbers necessary to cope with the extensive development of our railway system it has always been a surprise to me how the railways managed to procure the trained labour required. Now, it is a well established fact that the value of a product increases with the increased intelligence of the workman, and perhaps the noblest and certainly the most profitable contribution we could make to the welfare of our people would be the expenditure of public money for the purpose of increasing the intelligence of our craftsmen. That is the purpose of this resolution. Another thing which concerns us very intimately is the providing of increased safety for our industrial classes, and this can most effectually be done by affording them technical education in their particular calling. In this connection I shall make special reference to the coal mining industry on the Pacific coast. It is deplorable to think that the highest percentage of mine accidents in any country is to be found in Canada, and the province of British Columbia, I regret to say, is lamentably pre-eminent in that respect. I should sav in justice to my friends from Nova Scotia who are largely interested in coal mining that the accidents in their mines are relatively fewer than in the mines of British Columbia. Now, the explanation for that condition of things in Canada	is	that	a large	number	ofmen without training are employed in working jthe mines. We have been startled	in	the	last few	months	by
accounts of explosions in coal mines; sometime ago there was one near Nanaimo, and just a few days ago 300 men were buried in an Illinois mine. Now, the royalties from the mines go to the provincial revenue and the supervision of mines lies with the province; but in the United States the geological department has extended its authority over the operation of coal mines and whenever serious accidents occur there the federal government sends their technical officers to make investigation and to find the cause. The history of mining and mining accidents in England shows that it is the scientific men who discover the *causes of these accidents. The Dominion government has a Mining Department with its technical officers, and I want to suggest to mv hon. friend the Minister of Mines that whenever a mining accident occurs in any part of this country one of those technical officers be sent to investigate the cause of the accident. Let me mention one or two mining accidents that occurred in British Columbia, the causes of which are not likely to be discovered by the ordinary practising engineer. The accident at the Mr. RALPH SMITH.
Fernie coal mine was due to a freak in the geological formation, which could only be discovered and remedied by scientific technical men who understand the business of mining. In England they have had very many explosions in mines, just as we have in British Columbia, and they have never been certain that they have found the real causes of these explosions.
Let me bring to the attention of the House another matter which has a very practical bearing on this question. Some months ago we were startled by the great number of accidents that occurred in the handling of dynamite in the construction of the Grand Trunk railway. Have we ever endeavoured to discover the cause of these accidents? In my opinion there is just one answer. In the first place, we have not the technically trained men who understand how to handle high explosives, and in the next place, we have no testing plant in Canada to enable even intelligent workmen to learn the properties of these high explosives. This is a matter that should be taken up by the Mining Department of the government. If we consider the practical importance of that department, it seems to me impossible for the government to avoid the responsibility of providing for technical education along these lines. Let us consider what the government has been doing. It has discovered from experience that it is impossible to avoid technical education in connection with the operations of certain departments. My hon. friend mentioned the Marine Department with its schools of navigation. The scope of these schools must constantly expand with the growth of the Dominion. My hon. friend also referred to the educational work of the Department of Agriculture. The lands in the settled parts of this country are owned by the provinces, and the revenues derived from them go to the provinces; and yet this government, on its own initiative, has established a very important system of agricultural education in the form of experimental farms, farming and dairy schools, and especially in the circulation of lectures that have been given by scientific men connected with the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa. I venture to say from my experience that there is nothing more appreciated to-day by the people of the west than the scientific agricultural literature distributed by the Dominion government. I do not believe it is possible to have the results of the technical education provided by the several provinces of this Dominion distributed throughout this large country unless it is done by the Dominion authorities. For instance, Nova Scotia has a technical school of mining at Halifax. It is to the credit of Nova Scotia that it has done so much along this line. As a matter of fact, Nova Scotia has practically supplied the mining engineers

for the Dominion. My hon. friend referred to the correspondence schools. Although British Columbia is a mining province, it has no institution for technical training in mining, and but for the correspondence schools of the United States, we could not have had a sufficient number of mining engineers for the mining operations of the province. The mining engineer who wants to advance in his profession, must of necessity increase his knowledge by means of these schools, Let me say also that this system of education is not central, it is one which has to be distributed. It has to be taken to the door of the men who labour. My hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) said that they only began this system of technical education in England in 1892. Let me say this, that 30 or 35 years ago the British government had a science and art department and spent thousands of pounds sending scientific lecturers all over the country, and let me add that the mining engineers of that country to-day are men who took advantage of these lectures. Further, 30 years ago there was a thorough system of technical education in the way of university lecture courses in the old country. The "head men in the universities were distributed all over England to give lecture courses in technical matters and their expenses were to a large extent met by voluntary subscription.
My hon. friend has said a great deal about Germany, and no one will be disposed to undervalue the technical educational system of that country. But we know that the whole system of education there is part of their colossal militarism. Personally I prefer the free English system to the German. In Germany every man is compelled by the state to take advantage of the education provided, but I doubt very much that the German system has raised the mechanic and artisan of that country above the capacity of the British artisan. I have not yet been convinced that the system of educational training in Germany has done more for the workman than the British system has done for the British workman. But whatever system we adopt, it must be brought to the door of the ordinary workingman. You cannot expect a working man to leave his work at Vancouver in order to take up a university course elsewhere. Any system of education, to be useful to the industrial classes, must be distributed, so that the people can avail themselves of it without detriment to their daily work. Any system of education should provide for the sending out of lecturers all over the country. That could be done now by the Department of Mining. Scientific trained men could be sent out to the mining centres all over Canada to give lectures in the different mining schools.
I think sufficient has been said to induce the government to take advantage of this resolution and provide a good appropriation by means of which important evidence may be collected on this subject, and the Dominion authority is the only one which can make the information thus collected profitable to every part of this Dominion.


Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough).: The House is, I am . sure, very much indebted to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) for the very able speech he has made on this important question. I was very much interested also in the remarks of the hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Haggart) and those of the hon. gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. Smith). I do not rise for the purpose of discussing the question of technical education itself. I assume that every hon. gentleman here is convinced that the question is one of the greatest importance to the Dominion, and it ought not to be necessary to say anything in favour of technical education at this stage in our history. My object in rising is to point out, in a few words, that the desire to have something done in this line by the federal authorities is not a local one, that it is not confined to the province of Ontario or British Columbia, or Manitoba, but that it exists in eastern Canada as well as the west. It is certainly not a new question in the province from which I have the honour to come. Some years ago I had the privilege of acting as chairman of a committee of the local legislature in that province appointed to investigate and report to the local government on this question, which has been a live one in Nova Scotia for a good many years. Some 15 or 20 years ago, when our present Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) was premier of that province, the demand arose that something should be done in the way of training the miners who were operating the coal mines. In answer to that demand, the local government established mining schools in the various industrial mining centres. These schools have been in operation ever since and have done very good work. Some 300 men have graduated from them and now occupy important positions of trust in the mines, not only of our own province, but of other provinces as well, and the United States.
Later on the fruit growers thought that something should be done for them, and an agricultural school was established in the Annapolis valley. That was carried on some years and then merged into the provincial agricultural college at Truro. That college has done splendid work. Some three or four hundred men trained there, go but that it exists in eastern Canada as and spread the knowledge gained in that

college among the farmers of the maritime provinces. There is no expense by the local government which has given better results than the money spent on the agricultural college at Truro.
But after the industrial expansion at Sydney, Amherst, New Glasgow and other places, it was felt something further should be done and two years ago, the Nova Scotia legislature devoted the large sum of $100,000 for the establishment of a technical school. The building has been erected and the college has been opened, and I trust it is doing good work.
I mention these facts to show that the subject of technical education is one which has taken deep root in the eastern as well as in the central provinces and the west. The technical school established at Halifax has formed branches throughout all the industrial centres of the province, and they are working together and no doubt will show very beneficial results. I might add that the progress which has been made is not confined to Nova Scotia. Similar good work is being done in Ontario. We all know that the agricultural college of Guelph has turned out men who have been of great benefit, not only to Ontario, but to every other province. We have some of those men in Nova Scotia. One of them is the principal of our agricultural college there and he is one of whom neither the college nor his province need in any way be ashamed. The Royal Military College at Kingston is also doing technical work and the McGill university students are known the world over. McGill university has earned a great reputation as a school of technical education. But, as has been pointed out by my hon. friend from South Wellington, these larger universities, such as Toronto and McGill, are only for the sons of rich men who can afford to send them to the city to attend the regular courses and spend two or three years in training, but are not open to the general run of people, and the want is keenly felt for something to be done in a general way.
The mover of the motion has pointed out what has been done in Germany. Something also has been done in France, Austria, Sweden and even in Russia and also in Great Britain. The people of Great Britain were a little slow to take up the idea. It was not until the prestige of their industrial establishments was threatened to some extent by Germany and others that they did adopt it. But good work is now being done in Great Britain in this line. There is no country in the world to-day which needs technical education no much as Canada. It is not money we require for the development of our country so much as men. We want in every department captains of industry who can take hold of our undeveloped resources and turn them into wealth. We are about to embark on the Mr. SINCLAIR.
construction of a Canadian navy and I will venture to say that the great difficulty the government will meet will not be the question of money, although money is always a serious question as the Finance Minister will tell you, but the question of men, of trained men to build these ships, to lay down plans, to make the models and turn them out as they ought to be turned out. This will be the most difficult question the government will have to meet. A few years ago we were all humiliated at the inception of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway to find that the skilled men were imported from the United States. It may not have been absolutely necessary to do this but it was done to a very large extent in order to inaugurate that great enterprise. It will not again be found necessary to do this because we have now a considerable number of trained men among ourselves. The same thing happened at Sydney when the industrial expansion took place there. We had not a sufficient number of trained men and had to import them from a foreign country in order to start the steel works. I would suggest that something in the nature of the Morel Act be adopted in Canada, some scheme by which the local and municipal governments would contribute perhaps the largest share to this kind of education, the central government contributing a stated amount in cases where the local governments came up to a certain standard. I see no reason, under the circumstances, why that should not be done. I hope the government will take it into their serious consideration and that some forward movement will take place in regard to this very important matter.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. A. C. MACDONELL (South Toronto).: I would like to say a word or two in support of this resolution before it is finally dealt with. I desire to preface my remarks by congratulating the hon. gentleman (Mr. Guthrie) who moved this resolution, both upon the resolution itself and upon the able manner in which he supported it. I am quite aware that the matter is not without difficulties if it is to be dealt with by the government, because it is a matter that calls for the expenditure of money, not a large sum, but still an expenditure of money along the lines of what is in a sense, at least, education. Now the fact that this question is of an educational nature has been mentioned as presenting a difficulty in the way of the federal government dealing with it. But I think that difficulty has been largely met by the hon. member who moved this resolution, and by the hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Haggart) and

others who have spoken. In a sense it is not a matter of education, using the word in a narrow sense, but it is a matter of practical training, of industrial training, in technical knowledge. There is no occasion to use the word ' education ' in this resolution at all. It seems to me something apart altogether from education as the word is ordinarily used, even if it were necessary to differentiate the matter in that way.
As has been pointed out to-day, the government in years gone by has undertaken to deal with matters that are no less matters of education than this. For instance, the attention which the government devotes to agriculture has been referred to, and the sums spent on agriculture have been mentioned as a precedent for government action in relation to this case. Certainly the government has spent large sums of money in what is practically the education of the farming class all over Canada, a work which is carried on by the Department of Agriculture. Now I have no complaint to make with the government on that score. But this matter of technical training is to the mechanic and the artisan what agricultural training and the agricultural college are to the student of agriculture and to farmers' sons. I believe the government has undertaken the work of education in several other branches of public affairs in this country. For instance, the military college at Kingston has been referred to, and the instruction given by the government in marine navigation and the examination of candidates for various departments in navigation. So there are to-day abundant precedents for legislation along the lines of what we are now discussing.
But that is not the only instance relevant to the question of whether it is one within the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces; because, as has been pointed out by the mover of the resolution, the object sought to be attained is primarily the appointment of a commission to take evidence. Even if the government acted upon that suggestion and issued a commission, and then chose afterwards, in accordance with the recommendations of that commission, to go further and embark on an expenditure of money for the purpose, it could still be done in conjunction and in connection with the various provinces or municipalities in different parts of Canada, whose moneys or other assets could be joined with federal assistance. So that, even if it were a matter of education, it need not be taken out of the domain of provincial control, because it could be dealt with primarily as a matter of education by the provinces, assisted by some substantial contribution on the part of the Dominion government. So that difficulty, if it be one, could be got over.
But -what this resolution asks for is simply that a commission be appointed.
Now if the government did no more than appoint that commission to take evidence, the commission would probably report its evidence and findings, it would bring down to this House its recommendations, and even if the government went no further, they would be doing a large measure of substantial justice in this matter. We know that in various provinces action is being taken along the lines of this resolution, and if every province were to act in turn and issue just as many commissions as we have provinces, it would mean looking at the subject from so many different points of view, and if followed by legislation it would mean probably legislation of various kinds, showing a want of harmony and of breadth of view in dealing with a matter which requires some broad and comprehensive scheme. Now this is not education in a primary sense, because, as we all know, the provinces have undertaken that work. Time was when the state did not consider it a duty to educate the youth of a country; that period has happily long since passed, and no sane man would to-day for a moment suggest that it was not a proper and essential thing for the state to educate the youth. But there has arisen a need of what may be called secondary education, an education that has already been undertaken by many modern civilized countries, and that is the kind of education we are now considering. It is an education that is needed to fit the youth for the business of life, and this secondary education at the present time is given freely and unstintedly by every important country of Europe, and very largely by Great Britain. One would think that the time had come in this country when we could not afford to lag behind Europe. We are accustomed to refer to certain parts of southern Europe as being backward and unprogressive, but those countries are far ahead of us in this matter, they have solved the problems of technical education in a way that those countries find highly satisfactory. As has been pointed out this afternoon, some of the European countries have undertaken specially to deal with particular trades or callings, and in that way such trade or calling is dealt with in the most efficient manner possible. The days of apprenticeship are past, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Nanaimo, and an age has succeeded by which the state has intervened and assumed the burden of what was formerly performed by the master to the employee. Technical education is engaging the attention of every large city in Canada. These communities naturally look to the government for something to guide them in putting into actual practice this method of education. They naturally look, to the government to provide them with the very latest knowledge available on this very important

question. It is too much to expect that municipalities, even if they be large cities like Toronto and Montreal, will go on a meandering trip around the world to find the latest system of technical education, and they are looking to this central government to take the first steps along the line of at least supplying them with all available information on this question. We have some technical education in Toronto, but it is of the higher order, being in connection with the University of Toronto. But, the hoard of education in Toronto is dealing with this matter. It is considering a question of the establishment of technical schools as an adjunct to the common school education in that city, so that that vast body of people, the sons of the labouring classes and the toilers, can get some kind of a reasonable education in the various trades and crafts. Everything has been said, I think, that' can be said upon this matter.
I would like to refer simply to this fact that we all know that unemployment is one of the pressing and most distressing matters that the governments, not only of this country, but of European countries, have to deal with. Happily the unemployment question is not a very prominent one in Canada at the present time, but the time has been when the question of unemployment was a serious matter and that time may come again. In the city of Berlin they have a clearing house for labour, known as the Berlin Labour Exchange, to which go those who are out of employment on the one hand and employers who want men on the other. It is an immense place where thousands of men assemble ^ every day and where hundreds are. placed in employment. At this clearing house it has been ascertained that very much the largest number of people who are seeking employment are unskilled labourers, that there is more unskilled labour seeking employment every day than there is labour in all the other trades combined. What does this prove? It proves that if men can get an education in some trade, business, or calling, they are not apt to be out of employment. The man who cannot get employment is the unskilled mechanic, while, if a man skilled in any line of business or in any trade does get out of employment, it is only as a rule temporary. The great body of men who are, practically, permanently out of employment are those belonging to the unskilled labour class. Surely that is a sufficient argument to prove to any government that it is the duty of the government to, as far as possible, educate the labouring classes in some trade or calling so that they may at all times have a trade upon which to rely and to fall back upon. If this commission were to issue I have no doubt whatever but that almost immediately upon its 1 Mr. MACDONELL.
being returned to this House and the report distributed throughout the country it would be made use of and be available in all parts of Canada. It would have a double use. It could be used for the purpose of giving information to the trades in different communities and provinces and it could be made the basis of further action by this government if the government sees fit to take this up, as it has taken up other matters of a kindred nature. As to the provincial aspect of this case, kindred subjects have already been dealt with by the government and therefore I do not anticipate any difficulty in dealing with it in such a way as not to violate the principle of provincial autonomy in regard to matters of education. It would not form a precedent for interference at any future time by this government with the matter of education. I think the resolution has been ably presented to this House. The difficulty of dealing with a question of education, which is entirely of provincial character, has been fully met by the arguments which have been presented and a few of which I have endeavoured to elucidate in the remarks which I have addressed to the House.


Mr. ALPHONSE VEKVILLE (Maison-neuve).: Mr. Speaker, the question which is now before the House interests me to a large degree, and it is especially interesting to those whom I represent. I strongly favour the resolution that has been presented by the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie). As has been truly said a change has taken place m the apprenticeship system. Now, it appears that they are anxious to produce a mechanic in three, four or five months instead of making him serve three or four years as they did in the past. I am not at this moment disposed to discuss the reasons which have brought about this change of affairs in the apprenticeship system, but I may state that this is one question and probably the only one in regard to which organized labour and the Manufacturers' Association agree. It is a very important question. My hon. friend who presented this resolution, as well as my hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Smith), spoke about manual training. It was stated that organized labour is against manual training. In the real sense of the word organized labour is not against manual training, but it is against the taking of a clerk in a store, for instance, or anybody else, putting him into a training school for three months and trying to make a mechanic out of him. We claim, and I think justly, that it is impossible to teach a man how to do the work of a mechanic in three months. That has been the case in many trades. In the United States there are schools which advertise that if an employer wants a man of a certain trade they will produce him in three or four months. I might mention the Coyne

school in the plumbing trade which is carried on in New York and which follows this practice to a large extent. I am not disposed to sav in the House why this is done. The labour people are not against manual training. We have that ourselves in the city of Montreal. In my own trade, for instance, regular training is provided. We have two nights every week when young men can come and receive instruction in addition to the practical training which they get while working during the day. We want men in the trade, but we do not want to spoil our trade any more than a lawyer wants to spoil his profession. A trade is a profession after all. As far as I am concerned I see very little difference between a trade and a profession. Just as long as we have no law to protect ourselves, as long as we cannot come before this House or the provincial legislature and have our rules and regulations sanctioned, we have, to a large extent, to protect our profession. I want to go on record as saying right here, that labour is not against manual training provided it is done in the proper way. I am strongly in favour of and I hope the government will see its way clear to furnish sufficient money to train the labouring .classes of this country in the higher walks of artisanship. It is a great pity that today Canada has to send to different countries in the world for men to occupy the highest positions, and that Canadians should have to be satisfied to work under them. We Canadians have as much intelligence and as much energy as the people of any country in the world, and if facilities were afforded to the labouring classes to develop their natural ability I have not the slightest doubt that you would see the very best men springing from the ranks of the , people who labour.


Mr. F. L. FOWKE (South Ontario).: Mr. Speaker; it is refreshing to know that occasionally a question may be brought before this House which can be considered from the national standpoint of what is best for Canada, and regardless altogether of party bias. I am glad that such a one is the question we have for consideration this evening. Any question that deals with the education of the masses of the people is important, and that the question now before us is important we are all agreed, as we also agree that it has been presented in a most able manner by the hon. member for Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) who moved the resolution. That hon. gentleman has submitted to us a verv practical question and he has asked that it be dealt with in a particular way. I venture to express the hope that the government may be willing to accede to the proposition set forth in the resolution, since, under the British North America Act, the provinces have bad relegated to them the work of providing systems of education. I am glad that learned gentlemen of the legal profession in this House are able to assure us tnat no strain will be placed upon the constitution should the resolution before us be adopted. For my own part I have always felt, and as the years go by I feel it more and more, that we have not in the truest sense of the term a national system of education in Canada. Since we cannot have that I am rejoiced to know that we will not be held to be trenching on the prerogative of the provinces should we adopt the scheme outlined in the resolution of my hon. friend. I trust, Sir, that the day may yet come when we will have a technical or trade school in every town of the land, and that the system will reach its apex in a national university established in the capital city of the Dominion. The resolution before us simply asks that an inquiry be instituted as to the merits of the proposition therein set forth. We ought not be unwilling to investigate; we ought not be unwilling to obtain from any and every quarter information which may tend towards the advancement of our people. I have no doubt that the commission which under this resolution would be appointed will view the question from a Canadian point of view, that they will see with Canadian eyes, hear with Canadian ears, and report back to us what is best in the older countries to suit our conditions and environment. It is something to have it recognized that there is such a thing as a Canadian point of view. To-day, I see that idea very fittingly given effect to by the Toronto 'Globe which is sending one of the best known newspaper men of Canada, Mr. Stewari Lyon, to report back to the Canadian people the conditions under which the political battle is being waged in England so that Canadians will not have the news filtered through American or even British sources, but through a Canadian channel and from the viewpoint of the Canadian people. Now, these centres of the old world. Germany, England, Belgium, and other continental countries in which for a long time they have had trade schools in operation will be visited by Canadian representatives and we shall have described from the Canadian point of view the adaptability of these various systems of education to the Dominion of Canada. That ought to be of considerable value to us. I was glad indeed to hear the mover of the resolution express himself as willing that the scope of this inquiry should be enlarged. The resolution speaks of an inquiry onlv into the matter of technical education, and my hon. friend (Mr. Guthrie) has stated his willingness to include an inquiry into manual training and trade schools; a fact which I hope the govern ment will note in connection with the proposed appointment of the commission. In Blisses' encyclopedia of social reform pub-

lished in 1908 there is given a modem definition of technical education and manual training, and if you bear with me I will read that definition because it appears to me that it may be helpful to a clarifying of views held on this question outside this House even though those within its precincts may be already thoroughly informed on the subject I read:
Technical education and manual training: We include under this general heading three subjects which are distinct, although continually confounded in the public mind-trade education, technical education, and manual training. We consider them under one head, in order that, by placing the subjects side by side, the important differences between them may be clearly brought out. We commence with definitions. Trade education is the preparing of craftsmen for practical work in a particular trade. Technical education is the teaching of the sciences in their particular application to the material interests of man. A good trade-school may be a very poor technical school, while a good technical school is not of necessity a good trade-school. Manual training is different from either; it is instruction in the use of tools as a part of a complete educational discipline. Trade-schools seek to turn out craftsmen; technical schools seek to turn out scientific specialists and professional men, such as civil engineers, architects, &e.; manual training seeks to develop complete manhood and womanhood by developing dexterity of hand as well as head.
I trust that definition will be borne in mind should the government conclude to accede to the wishes of the mover of the resolution. A very charming and interesting contribution has been made to the debate by those gentlemen who may in the proper sense be held to be representatives of labour in this House. I was glad to hear the hon. gentleman from Nanaimo (Mr. Smith) and the hon. gentleman from Mai-sonneuve (Mr. Verville) express their acquiescence in the suggestion that labour has no objection whatever to manual ^training in the proper acceptation of the term, being introduced into our schools. The knowledge that men have is of course only of value as it expresses itself in action, and the proposition is that the industrial classes of Canada may be as well equipped for their particular callings in life, for the duties and responsibilities of citizenship, by reason of the schooling placed at their disposal, as are those who are able to participate in the higher branches of learning and in the higher walks of life; and surely one of the duties of a representative institution in a democratic country like this should he to provide to the utmost facilities for the advancement and betterment of all sections of society which together make up the commonwealth of this great Dominion. I am well aware that outside of this House there are those who are altogether opposed to the proposition contained in the resolution before the House. There are Mr. FOWKE.
those who think that the educational system should continue as it is, devoting itself entirely to the classics, and that no man should be held to be educated unless he takes a classical course at one of our universities. The time was when two or three learned professions were very much looked up to and admired and were thought to be the sine qua non of everything proper in human society. I do not say that that day is past or will ever be past. I am bound to say, however, that useful as the physician may be in society, we prefer the prophylactics of common sense; we prefer to keep well rather,than to apply ourselves to any system of therapeutics whose only purpose is to make us well after we become sick. With regard to the lawyer, I suppose we may be asked to acquiesce in the suggestion that without him truth would perish fr.om off the face of the earth. I do not deny the proposition. The lawyer has his place in society, but we are glad to give him as wide a berth as possible. The clergyman, another member of the learned professions, has an important place. I see that the hon. member for Victoria and Hali-burton (Mr. Hughes) is not present this evening to pay his compliments to the clergy. We are perhaps all in the frame of mind to believe that a little teaching of the doctrine of total depravity would not be amiss-like the old lady wno wanted to join a certain church and was told that she would have to pass an examination by a board of elders and answer certain questions. 'What questions?' she asked. 'For instance, do you believe in total depravity? ' ' That's easy,' said she; ' I not only believe in it, but hope to practise it too.' So we do not hope to get along without the learned professions. I am glad that gentlemen of the learned professions this afternoon have emphasized the fact that the classical is not the only method by which men may be educated in order that they may make the best of themselves in life, and may attain to positions of importance in the industrial life of Canada and of the world.
The fact has been adverted to that we are already doing a good deal in aid of technical education. The hon. member for South Toronto (Mr. Macdonell) a few moments ago pointed out that the great agricultural industry in Canada b*s been mar. vellously helped by what is really a course of technical education given on the experimental farms of this Dominion and' in the laboratories of those farms. This is an age of the chemist in agriculture as well as in other departments of life, and I have no doubt that millions of dollars have been added to the wealth of this Dominion by reason of the technical education which the farmers have been able to avail themselves of through the reports issued by the Dominion government in relation to their par-

ticular calling, and I hope that this work will go on and increase. But I am also glad to reflect that this country long ago came to believe that it could never attain to greatness as a nation by remaining a pastoral people. So we have entered the field of industrialism, and this has grown in all the provinces of the Dominion until it is estimated that we have to-day invested in industrial pursuits $850,000,000, having an output of $750,000,000 per annum, with perhaps one fourth of our total population dependent upon those pursuits. Yet we are only in our infancy as an industrial community, and we could not do a wiser thing than avail ourselves of the knowledge, the wisdom, the experience, of the countries of the old world which have brought industrialism to a high state of perfection, and with whom we have to compete if we send our products into the marts of the world. Another reason for the appointment of a commission arises from the fact that this is a country of untold wealth in natural products. Some of these have been referred to this afternoon, and speakers have dwelt upon the importance of our training men to be experts in particular departments of industrialism, so that we may, with Canadian capital and Canadian labour, avail ourselves to the full of those natural advantages which Providence has placed at our disposal. Some natural produces of great importance I could mention that have not been named this afternoon. This is a country of fur-bearing animals. Canada exports millions of dollars' worth of furs every year, and why? Simply because in the old world, by reason of technical education, men have learned to treat those furs in such a way as to make them the desire of all who may be able to purchase them. Why may we not hope to teach and train men on our own soil so that they will be able to treat those furs which are now sent to Leipsic and London to be returned here in a finished state? In the same way the long lustre wools of Canada are being sent to the United States under a tariff of ten cents a pound, netting to our farmers only about ten cents a pound, whereas if we had skill and machinery to apply to the raw product, we could have the same market and the same profits as now go to the manufacturers of the eastern states. To stop the export of these raw materials and to enable our people to work them up into finished articles by the use of Canadian capital and Canadian labour on Canadian soil is surely worthy the attention of Canadian legislators. In this new era upon which we are entering, this business era, this era of trade and commerce and manufacture, it 34
ought to come as an inspiring thought to us that the opportunity is presented now to place ourselves on record as true to the belief within us and to take such action that the men of this generation, the youth coming on the stage of activity, the boys and girls in our schools who are destined to enter upon the industrial life, may have every opportunity and privilege to make the best of themselves, each in his particular calling, that, any boy or girl anywhere under the sun is known to possess at this hour.
At the risk of wearying the House, I would like to tell you of some concrete instances myself, which prove the advantage of having out own experts in the manufacturing interests. I come from a town which has had a varied experience in industrial life. We have had corporations formed to carry on industries in that community, without the advantage of technical knowledge in relation to their undertaking. They had plenty of capital, the world was all before them, and yet they came to naught. To-day, however, we have a number of flourishing industries in that town-the town of Oshawa-which may be called the Manchester of Canada. One of these industries is the largest of its kind within the boundaries of the British empire; another is the largest of its kind in the Dominion. Both are what they really are today-one employing nearly a thousand men, and its capacity circumscribed only by its ability to get men, and it could enlarge its plant at any time if labour were at hand-both these industries owe their success, not to their abundance of capital, but to the expert knowledge and training of the men in charge. One of these establishments started as a blacksmith shop on the side of the road, but the owner was a skilled mechanic, and under his management that has grown to be the largest institution of the kind in the empire to-day Why? Simply because the man at its head has skill and knowledge and is an expert in his particular line. The other industry I refer to owes its growth to the very same reason. One of its proprietors, and one of the finest inventors in the Dominion, is the manager of that business, and the president of the company told me only a few days ago that because of the skill of that particular man, of whom he is very proud, he is able to-day to start three new industries of a kind not now being operated anywhere in Canada, and will do so as soon as the right sort of men to manage them are available. So that there is any amount of scoper for an educational institution such as we have in our mind to-night.
It has been shown by the hon. gentleman who introduced the resolution (Mr. Guth-lie) that there is a current of public opin-

1C59

ion all over the country behind this movement. It is endorsed by the trade and labour councils and by the boards of trade and chambers of commerce, and the public sentiment in every manufacturing town and mercantile community is entirely favourable to the proposition. I therefore sincerely hope,-in view of all the circumstances, that the government will not be frightened away from the adoption of the idea by any regard for the small cost which the appointment of a commission would entail, and I hope they will not be alarmed by the bogey that it would place a strain on the constitution greater than it could bear. I trust that the House and government will give their favourable consideration to this most important resolution, so ably presented by the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) this afternoon.


Mr. A. B. CROSBY (Halifax).: I do not rise for the purpose of making any extensive remarks upon the resolution before the House, but for the purpose of tendering my sincere thanks to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) for having introduced this resolution. I am sure that any hon. gentleman who heard him present this matter before the House must have come to the conclusion that there is nothing to prevent the government coming to the assistance of industrial training. Coming from the province of Nova Scotia, where we have already a splendid technical school, established lately in the city of Halifax by the local government, and also a manual training school, second to none in the Dominion, of which we are very proud, I might be *content with that condition and give no heed to the rest of Canada. But that is not the way we are built down there. We are always glad to help the rest of Canada, even though sometimes, when we -seek a little consideration for our province, the rest of Canada looks at us with rather a forbidding eye. However, should this government come to the conclusion to assist technical education throughout Canada- while I am not in the position to speak for the government of Nova Scotia-yet I am sure I can say that the government of that province will be very glad indeed to accept any assistance for the carrying on of that school, without feeling that such a grant would interfere with their provincial rights m any way.
Ship building has been referred to by the mover of this resolution. One of the good reasons for instituting a technical school in Nova Scotia is that we expect to have a ship building plant there very shortly and we hope-because our people are very apt and quick to learn-to have men comnetent to take charge of the principal positions in connection with that in-Mr. FOWKE.
dustry. Navigation has also been referred to. I am sorry to say that in the maritime provinces we have no navigation school, and if there be any school this government should establish, it ought to be a school of navigation. Trade and navigation go hand in hand, and this government would be doing a great deal for trade and commerce and navigation by giving its assistance to the establishment of a school of navigation- It is a great disadvantage to the maritime provinces not to have a school. Several men competent to teach that branch have taken it up but could not carry it on because, although at times they had sufficient pupils, at other times they had not. Therefore it would be a good thing for this government to take that question into consideration. While I think that the government should contribute to all branches of industrial training, certainly I think it should contribute to the teaching of navigation, some contribution should be made towards the teaching of that subject in our technical school in Nova Scotia. We have been accustomed, particularly in the eastern mining sections of Canada, to go across the border for our mining engineers, but the government of Nova Scotia have now established mining schools which have done a great deal for us in providing and preparing men to act as mining engineers. Some of the industries which have been established fn Nova Scotia almost went to destruction shortly after their inception. When the sugar refinery was established in Halifax technical men were brought from the United States to conduct it. The result was that it looks suspiciously as if these men did not attempt to carry on the industry properly and in a very few years the industry had gone altogether and the capital invested in it was practically sunk. After getting a fresh start and depending more on the men who had gained a little information in regard to the manufacture of sugar in our own province, that industry has become a great success. If we had had technical education it would have been of great assistance to us in the establishment of that industry as well as in connection with our cotton factory and many other industries.
While I should be glad to see this resolution passed, I do not think that the appointment of a commission is necessary. I do not believe that a commission could obtain any more information, any better.collection of facts and could place them before this House in better order than has been done by my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) this afternoon. The commission is not necessary. This matter should be taken up by the government at once, and they could easily see the advantage from every standpoint of taking action in this direction. As has

been well stated here, there are many industries in the Dominion of Canada that have barely been touched upon yet. Take, for instance, the pulp wood industry. Great quantities of pulp as well as many other products of Canada are shipped to the United States in the raw state. If we had technical education, if our people were prepared to take hold of the different industries, such as the pulp wood industry and in place of sending abroad partly manufactured products to be returned to us m the finished state, should send out finished products, it would be greatly to the benefit of Canadian manufactures and of Canada generally. I believe that if the government would take action on the statement of facts as presented by the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) the country would endorse them in providing at least 25 to 30 per cent of the cost of taking care of any technical school that maybe started in any province. The hon. member (Mr. Guthrie) stated that in the German empire they pay 28 per cent, and I think that this government would be perfectly justified in arranging to contribute to the extent of 25 to 30 per cent of the -cost of running any technical school in any province in the Dominion of Canada.


Hon. MACKENZIE KING (Minister of Labour).: Mr. Speaker, I feel that I am only voicing the opinion of every member of this House when I say that our "thanks are due to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) for having brought this important subject to the attention of parliament and for the exceptionally able, forceful and comprehensive manner in which he introduced his resolution. I think, too, Sir, the House is to be congratulated on the very full discussion which has taken place on this resolution, to be congratulated because the subject is one which, no matter what view we may take as to the jurisdiction of this government or a provincial government to deal with it, cannot be viewed other than as one of great national concern. I should like to add a fbw words to what has already been said from that point of view, but before doing so I would like to refer to the remarks of the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. R. Smith) in, reference to industrial accidents in the coal mines of Nova Scotia and the coal mines of British Columbia.
The hon. member has drawn the attention of the House to the great difference in the number of accidents which have taken place in the mines of those two provinces, and I do not know that a more fortunate example could-have been brought forth to illustrate the important part which technical education may play in the industrial development of a nation than the example the hon. gentleman has cited. During recess I took advantage of 34i
the oportunity to look up a table showing the number of fatal and serious -accidents in the coal mines of Nova Scotia and British Columbia, and I find that in the last ten years in Nova Scotia 264 miners have been killed outright in the course of their employment, while in the province of British Columbia, 624 miners have been killed outright in the course of their employment. Reducing the figures to averages, the difference is still more striking. Taking the rate per thousand men employed in Nova Scotia and comparing it with the ratio per thousand men employed m the mines of British Columbia, we find that the fatal accidents in Nova Scotia have been 2-64 per thousand men employed and in British Columbia, 9 ;21. That, Sir, is to be accounted for, it seems to me, mostly by the different advantages given to the miners of those two provinces in the way of technical education. My hon. friend knows, as every member of this House knows, that factory legislation and legislation in regard to mines is enacted by the provincial legislatures. He knows that the mining inspectors, as the factory inspectors, are appointed by the governments of the respective provinces, and I believe that from the point of view of laws -and numbers of inspectors, the conditions in British Columbia will compare favourably with those in Nova Scotia. But there is this difference between the two provinces: In the province of Nova Scotia you have to-day a Department of Technical Education and since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) was Prime Minister of Nova Scotia, you have had technical schools in connection with the mines of that province so that when the miners who are spending their day time in the mine have an evening or have leisure, they may get the advantages of a technical training which will help to acquaint them with the difficulties and the hazardous conditions of their calling, with the scientific side of the work in which they are engaged. The result of that is shown in the figures that have been placed before the House. It seems to me the hon. gentleman has rendered to this country a great service in drawing attention to the fact that technical education may be the means of saving to the nation a large part of its working population.
Let me supplement these figures in regard to mining by some figures which the Department of Labour has been gathering during the last few years in regard to the subject of industrial accidents generally. Although the figures are imperfect, -although they do not begin to include the total number of accidents which have taken place, they are, I think, sufficiently large to show how important this particular phase of industrial life is. Taking the figures as reported in the annual report of the Depart-

ment of Labour, for the vear ending March 31, 1909, I find that the number of person? engaged in industrial occupations who were killed outright from accidents occurring in the course of their work, was 1,271 and during the preceding year, the total number was 1,353. Take that average for a period of ten years, and what does it amount to? Between 13,000 and 14,000 of the wage earners, of the wealth producers of this country, killed outright in the course of their employment. What a tremendous national loss this is, to say nothing of the great loss to industry, to say nothing of what it means to the friends and families of those who are victims of these disasters. We see here the necessity for an extension of governmental action which may help to acquaint workingmen with the difficulties and dangers attendant on their callings, and which may tend in some'way to reduce the number of fatal accidents which are likely to occur.
Now, I would like to say a word or two on another phase of the importance of technical education. And first of all, let me draw attention to the important part which technical education must necessarily play in the industrial development of this or of anv other nation at the present time- must play because of the change which has taken place in the methods under which industrv is carried on to-day in comparison with the methods under which it was carried on in the past. Under the old system as it prevailed before the mechanical inventions that have taken place during the last century, under the old domestic system, it was the custom of the employer to work with his men in his own home or in the shop. There were not then the large factories^ there were not the large organizations of capital and of labour .as we find them to-day. Under the old system of industrv the training of the artisan was a comparatively simple matter, but under the system as it has developed today through the introduction of different powers the harnessing of the forces of nature, be they water, steam or electricity, we have entered into an entirely different industrial era, we have an industrial condition in which technical education must play a tremendous part. No man, for instance, can deal with electricity unless he is something more than an ordinarv workingman, something more than an ordinary mechanic; he must have scientific training if he is to take any part in the application of electrical power to industry. Our whole industrial system being carried on to-day by factory organization and organization of capital and labour on a large scale, renders it abso-lutelv essential that a nation which is going to progress and keep abreast of the times must eauio its workers along the most modern lines, provide its workers Mr. KING.
with a practical technical training to enable them to deal with the new conditions under which they are obliged to work.
But not onlv has the industrial system vastly changed from what it was some years ago, the nature of the competition in industry has become vastly different from what it was not so long ago. It is no longer in any line of manufacture a question of competition as between municipality and municipality, as between nrovince and province, but it is a world wide competition, competition between one nation and another, between different countries forming a part of the same empire, and between different empires, a struggle for industrial supremacy so vast that it is difficult for the imagination to grasp its significance. Now, in a struggle such as that carried on under our industrial system, the slightest difference in processes, in technical devices, the slightest advantage in scientific knowledge, in the adaptability of machinery for different purposes, may have a far reaching effect. It may affect the whole of one industry, or the industries of one country, as compared with those of another country, and we in Canada, who at this time are endeavouring, as we all are, to become one of the foremost peoples in the industrial struggle of our time, should be prepared to consider carefully this question of technical education, since upon technical education will largely depend the success of our manufacturers in obtaining the advantage of the latest scientific processes. Not only the men who are directing an industry, but also those who are taking part in it, must be well educated to enable our country to hold its own and make headway against all competitors.
Sir, while speaking on this question of foreign competition, I would like to touch for a moment on the question of foreign trade. No nation that is worthy the name can hope to accomplish much unless it develops a large foreign trade, and this country, while it has already made considerable strides in the direction of gaining a foothold in the markets of Europe and elsewhere, will, we hope, go much further, and not only maintain a foothold in the markets of Europe, but also gain an entrance in the markets of the Orient, for which we are so well fitted by our geographical position. Perhaps the House will pardon me if I make a reference to one or two facts which came under my observation during the time I was privileged to be in the Orient last year. What impressed me almost more than anything else was the extent to-which the manufacturers of England, the manufacturers of Germany and the manufacturers of the United States were finding a sale for their goods in those distant parts. In the cities of China, in the towns and cities of Japan, one saw

everywhere articles of manufacture, products of one kind or another, coming from Great Britain, from Germany and other countries of Europe, and also from the United States; and I could not but wonder as a Canadian that we had not found our wav into those distant parts, possessing, as 1 have mentioned, a great natural geo-granhical advantage in the matter of trade with the far east. Going down from China to Japan, one travels through Manchuria on a road over rails that are made in Europe, and on cars that are made in the United States. The table service is made up of cutlery and china ,hat comes from Great Britain. Much of the food has been prepared in European countries or in the United States. Surely we can hope that before long the manufacturers and producers of this country will be finding a market for their goods in those distant regions, and this market, I believe, once it is obtained, will be one of the iaigest and most profitable in the world. But if we are to find an entrance to that market, and if we are to hold our own when we get there, it will be only in virtue of the fact that our industries are equipped in a manner second to none as compared with those of other countries, and that we are doing a business as up-to-date as that which any other nation can do.
But, if there was one thing that impressed me more than another it was the extraordinary industrial development which has taken place in those countries themselves, and that is one of the main reasons why we should spare neither time nor money in an endeavour to equip our industrial communities in the most efficient manner if we are going, not only to obtain a foothold in those foreign countries, but if at the same time we are to retain our own markets in face of the competition which is sure to come from the far east. Let me mention only one case. I had the privilege of visiting the city of Hankow, which is three days' journey up the Yangtsze river, just opposite on the other side of the river, is located a large iron and steel industry. At the time I was there, this concern, established by Chinese capital, employed in the vicinity of 20,000 Chinese workmen, and they were shipping pig iron and steel ingots not onlv to other cities of China but to the United States as well, paying the duty on the steel ingots all that distance from the interior of China, across the Pacific, paying the duty and landing that steel at a profit in the very districts in which steel is being manufactured in the United States. I asked myself how it was p'ossibie that the Chinese nation that we had supposed to be asleep was carrying on so successfully such an industry in the far east, and the answer
I found in connection with the very subject we are considering to-night. The men who were directing those industries were highly trained specialists, some of these young Chinese who had^gone to Germany, who had gone to the United States, who had gone to Great Britain to receive a technical education in the schools and colleges there, and with that fine intellectuality characteristic of Chinamen, were able to return to their own country and to take part in an industrial development which will be second to none in the near future.
Now, if we are going to hold our own against that kind of competition it will only be by bringing our workmen up to the highest degree of efficiency, and by seeing that our industries are managed by men who are second to none in technical knowledge and training. They talk of the Yellow peril. Sir, I nnd no danger in the Yellow peril if you consider it under the aspect of immigration. I believe that can be dealt with by diplomacy; I believe it will be possible to keep the oriental to his own side of the Pacific, as it is in every way desirable he should bo kept. The real Yellow peril, a peril tha1 is surely coming, is that of industrial competition with the Orient, and when it does come in all its power, it will present to us the greatest problem with which this continent has yet been faced. Let me show wherein it is at our doors at this very moment. I have in my pocket a letter I received from a gentleman in San Francisco, v. ho says that the company with which he is concerned is to-day in a position to control the imports of steel billets, from the company in China to which I have referred, and his company is arranging with that company in Hankow to secure their products, the steel billets and pig iron they are manufacturing tnere, and he writes to know what are the possibilities of his developing with this material a large iron and steel industry and_rolling mills on our Pacific coast. His company is proposing to establish a manufacturing concern somewhere on the western slope of the United States and Canada to carry on the manufacture of steel with their products coming from this old country of China. Now what is true there is going to be true in one industry after another, and how are we to meet it? It will not be met by our shorter hours of labour.	We work eight to ten
hours a day in our factories, whereas the orientals are working twenty-four hours in the concern to which I have referred, thev never stop even for Sundays, the Chinese New Year being the only day in which that industry closes down. Our regard for women in industry is not going to save us, our laws exempting little children from working in these industries is not going to

save us. Our higher wages will not the better enable us to meet this competition. What then is going to save us? Two things, and two things alone will enable this country to face the competition with which it is destined to be brought into conflict in the far east. One of these is the extent which the future witnesses the spreading of the light of the new world over the old, spreading of the light from the lamp of knowledge, and the still brighter radiance of Christian truth and Christian influence. Where that goes 'will come with it a greater regard and respect for women, a greater reverence for the little child, a greater and truer insight into the nature and dignity of manhood itself. With these things will come a shortening in the hours of labour, a lessening of the employment of women and children, and a respect for the Sunday which we observe as a day of rest, and a hundred and one other considerations which makes this our standard of living what it is among our own people. The other thing that mav help us to meet this competition is the greatness of our natural resources, combined with the industrial efficiency of our own working people, and this industrial efficiency can only be brought about by the development on a general scale throughout the whole Dominion of sound technical education, carried on by the authorities whose duty it is to do it. Only by the development of this system of technical education so far as we can possibly carry it, will we be in a position to face the future with a confidence of success.
Now, Sir, perhaps I have spoken on this point at greater length than the circumstances would warrant. But I have thought that perhaps another opportunity may not occur very soon to enable me to express my views on a question which seems to me of paramount importance. It seems to me there is great need for the development of a system of technical education in Canada. This need has been demonstrated in half a dozen different ways. First of all, it has been demonstrated by comparison of conditions in this country with conditions as they are in Germany, in France, in England, in Switzerland and in the United States. It has been shown by the hon. gentleman who moved this resolution and by others who have spoken on it, how much has been done by each of these countries in the- matter of promoting technical education. The hon. leader of the opposition asked, I think, in speaking of Germany, whether the work that has been carried on there had been done for the most part by the states. I think the work has been carried on by the states in Germany, for the most part. The work was started in Germany, as the member for South Wellington said this afternoon, away back early in the last century, and it has been taken up by Mr. KING.
one state after another. But the federal government in Germany has also done something to further this work. They have done nothing in the way of teaching, but they have established an institute for physical and technical research, they have an industrial museum, and they are giving financial assistance to ship-building and navigation schools. In the United States while most of the work has been carried on by the individual states, the federal government contributed land away back in 1862 for the purpose of aiding in the development of the agricultural and mechanical arts. They have had one or two commissions which have made inquiries into these questions, and a department of education which conducts researches along these lines. The federal government has also granted financial aid to the several states. In Great Britain there have been a large number of polytechnic schools, continuation classes, and technical schools and commercial and technical universities. All these countries are competitors of Canada, and are doing a great deal to equip their army of workers and enable them to take their part in this world wide competition. And were there no other reason why the authorities of this country should do their part in promoting the work of technical education than that our competitors are doing so that of itself would be a strong reason [DOT]vhy much should be done. But there is another reason that was mentioned by the hon. member for South Ontario (Mr. Fowke) and the hon. member for Guysboro (Mr. Sinclair), and that is that the employers of labour in this country are crying out for skilled workmen. We all know that .this demand comes from every part of the Dominion, one industry after another complaining that they have not enongh skill'd workmen. They allege that they have to send to other countries to get foremen, and import men skilled in certain industries. Why is this ? It is :iot because we have not in Canada men who are capable of becoming skilled in scientific knowledge, and of carrying on any industry after the most modern" scientific methods, but it is because we have not in Canada a sufficient number of institutes to enable our artisans and workingmen to qualify for these high positions the number of which is daily increasing. Not only is there a desire on the part of the employers for a greater number of skilled workmen but there is also, as the hon. member for Maisonneuve, the mover of the resolution and the hon. member for Nanaimo have said, a desire on the part of the workingmen themselves to avail themselves of greater opportunities, of education in this direction. I think it was the hon. member for South Wellington who pointed out that not less than three-quarters of a million of dollars was spent by the work-

men of this country in payments to the correspondence schools in the United States in the furthering of this work of selfeducation along technical lines. Where there is a desire to that extent, manifesting itself in that particular way, surely we have before us the strongest reason why the authorities, whose duty it may be to undertake this work, should undertake it to the greatest degree possible.
And, Sir, there is another reason, much akin to the one which I have already mentioned, and that is the need at this time for a better system of apprenticeship. Our industries are suffering in everv direction because workingmen do not go through the form of apprenticeship now that they went through in the olden days. It is inevitable that it should be so. In the olden days the apprentice worked with his employer in his master's shop, but to-day the employer is a large corporation and this personal relationship which formerly existed is now impossible. There is the greatest diversity of industry, and the greatest division of labour, so that the work of the ordinary mechanic comes often to be that of simply performing one particular kind of action, doing that in a monotonous, routine fashion and knowing nothing of the whole process of which his labour forms a part. That beiir" so it seems to me there is a greater need for some system of education which will make intelligible to the man who has the work to do the part which he is performing in industrial development and that service might be performed by an extension of the system of technical education throughout the country.	_
There is a further feature which I think should be considered in this connection and it is the obligation which society owes to workingmen to enable them to realize the best of the capacity which they have within them. This is something which we, in this day, are too apt to forget. We have all the comforts in our homes, we think of the enjoyments that we possess of one kind and another, but we fail to realize to what a considerable extent, I was going to say, the almost illimitable extent, the whole enjoyment and routine of our daily life rests upon the manner in which the great mass of men who are day labourers or ordinary mechanics discharge the duties which they are called unon to perform. Let me read an extract from the report of the Industrial Committee of the American Federation of Labour which recently held its session in the city of Toronto. It was a report brought in by a committee of the workingmen composing that body in regard to this question of industrial education and the sentence or two which I shall read is deserving of the consideration not only of this House but of every man in this country:
We must never lose sight of the fact that a large majority of the working people are poor, and because of this they are forced to begin the battle of life at an early age. The need of the day is that something be done for the children of this great wage-working class.
Formerly the apprentice system offered the boy an opportunity to learn a trade and become a thoroughly trained mechanic, but of late years the scheme of specialization has supplanted the old apprenticeship system, even to extreme specialization. It ought to be recognized as a scientific truth that the higher the skill possessed by the mechanic the more valuable his labour, both to himself, his employer and the community.
The one trouble in America to-day is that too many of our youths who have graduated from the grammar or high schools are misfits industrially. If we are to secure industrial supremacy, or even maintain our present standards in the industrial world, we must in some way in our educational system acquire an equivalent to our old apprenticeship system.
It is to the first paragraph of that extract that I would like t.o direct special attention.
A large majority of the working people are poor, and because of this they are forced to begin the battle of life at an early age. The need of the day is that something be done tor the children of this great wage-working class.
We leave these halls of parliament, we go to our homes in the evening, we take a street car, we so to our rooms and sit down by our firesides and unless there is a strike on the street railway, or a strike of plumbers so that our houses are cold when we go into them, unless there is a strike of miners so that we cannot get coal for our fires, or unless there is some other kind of industrial disturbance to direct our attention to the fact that there is a great industrial community working ceaselessly day and night, we are all too apt to forget that this great body of workers exists at all. For that reason we cannot too often remind ourselves of the fact that society does owe something to the great body of working people who are obliged to begin life early, to begin to toil before their education is completed, that we owe something to them in the way of conferring an opportunity at least to each to realize the capacities of which his nature may be capable. Carlyle says, in one of his famous works, that for a man to die ignorant who has capacity for knowledge, is a tragedy. Well, Sir, if this be true, the crime must somewhere rest upon the heads of those who have it within their power to confer the opportunity and who yet withhold it. It seems to me therefore that if we recognize the imperative ethical obligation which is upon us we will find it out dutv to do something to put in the way of the miner who daily risks his life in underground toil the opportunty for education which will better enable him to rise in the calling


Some hon. MEMBERS: Go on.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: While I have endeavoured to lay emphasis on the need for the extension of the work I would have failed to have properly presented to the House what I had in my mind had I conveyed the impression that Canada is not at the present time doing a great deal considering the number of other things that we have been called upon to do and the comparatively early stage of our industrial development. Just running over in a very rapid way what has been accomplished, let me direct the attention of the House to the province of Nova


Mr. KTNG.: Scotia. They have in that province a department of technical education. In that respect the province of Nova Scotia, as in some other respects, has gone far and away ahead of any of the other provinces of the Dominion. They have recognized the great importance of this work to the extent of having a department of the government under an able and efficient officer, Dr. Sexton, devoting its time exclusively to the work of technical education.
Thev have, I understand, 21 technical schools established in different districts throughout the province and these schools are attended by miners, by stationary engineers, by fishermen, and by craftsmen generally. It is, I believe, the intention of the provincial government to still further extend that work which was initiated by the Hon. Mr. Fielding, when he was premier of Nova Scotia. In Prince Edward Island something is being done in the way of manual training and in New Brunswick there is a department of forestry connected with the university, but little has been undertaken in the way of technical education in either of these provinces. In the province of Quebec a good deal has already been done and more is promised. Recently, Sir Lomer Gouin, the premier, in connection with the laying of the foundation stone of a new technical institute in Montreal promised that the government recognizing the needs of the mechanics and working classes, would make for still further progress in this line. There are at present 11 schools of arts and manufactures in the province of '*nh'-'c: there have been liberal grants to existing institutions and the premier has promised to the city of Quebec a technical institute similar to that in course of construction in Montreal. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company, experiencing the need for skilled mechanics, has started in connection with the Angus shops, classes for the technical education of its employees, and the classes, I am informed, are well attended. The universities of McGill and Laval have done good work in their technical branches, so that the province of Quebec has set to the other provinces of the Dominion an example which is only paralleled by Nova Scotia and Ontario. In Ontario, the development of technical education and manual training through the high schools and collegiate institutes has gone a long way, and there are also well equipped technical high schools at Hamilton and Toronto. The university has its school of Practical Science and department of forestry, there is the agricultural school at Guelph, and the department of mines at Kingston. Within the last few months the technical high schools at Toronto sent a commissioner to the United States to inquire into the conditions there, and the pro-

vincial government has sent another commissioner to Europe to inquire into technical education, so that it may be said that Ontario is doing good work in this direction. The hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Haggart) has spoken of what is being done in his own province and in his own city, and I would like to mention the commendable example set by the late David A. Mitchell, of Winnipeg, who, in his will, provided a large sum to be devoted to the erection of technical schools in which workingmen and artisans may receive free of charge technical training.at evening classes in their particular callings. This probably sums up all that has been done throughout the Dominion in the way of technical education. It is only a few years since the start was made, but what has been done thus far gives us reason to hope that these provinces will advance in the work and that their example will be followed by the other provinces.
The resolution before the House expresses the opinion that it is advisable that a committee of inquiry should be forthwith appointed to investigate the needs of Canada in this respect to technical education and to report the ways and means by which these needs may best be met. There can be no doubt that such a commission would render great service to the Dominion, and to all the provinces of the Dominion. The reports of the British consular agents afford very interesting information as to what is being done by other c^'mtries in the way of gathering information on the subject of technical education. I have here a list of British consular reports on technical education in Germany which I find in the library of the Department of Labour, and I will read it to show what information may be acquired by gentlemen who make researches into existing conditions in other countries. There is one report of 83 pages which deals with special schools and courses for mechanical engineering in Germany. There is another report of 91 pages dealing with what Germany has done for the development of the textile interests, another report on navigation schools, another report on the special technical schools for the ceramic industry, another report on agricultural instruction in Germany, another report on engineering schools, another report on the technical schools for the branches of the metal industry, another on technical instruction in naval construction and architecture, another on special schools for ship engineers, and another on special schools for the woodworking industry.
_ Now, if the great nation of Britain finds it to her commercial and industrial advantage to have her consular agents prepare reports on what a rival nation is doing to
develop industries along technical lines, that should be evidence enough to show wherein a similar course adopted by the governments that have charge of thi- particular work could be found advantageous to them, and that the work of any commission properly performed would be of great service to this country. 1 may say that the Department of Labour has already commenced to gather a large amount of information on this subject of technical education in other countries, and any work which a commission would undertake would be in part of that nature. So far as it has been possible to do it by means of correspondence we have endeavoured in the Department of Labour to gather in the library reports on what is being done for technical education in tin-different countries of the world. We shall be only too glad in the department to have any persons w'ho are interested in this subject take advantage of the information which is gathered there. Mr. Acland, the deputy minister, who has made a very full and careful study of this whole question would be pleased, I am sure, to lend his assistance towards facilitating the work of representatives of the provincial governments or others who may desire to consult any of the documents in the department.
There does not seem to be any diffe-ence of opinion as to the desire in many quarters for a commission of this kind. That has been made plain to us by the manufacturers as well as the workingmen through their representatives in the Dominion Trades and Labour Congress and the Canadian Federation of Labour, each of which bodies have made requests that something should be done in this direction. It goes without saying that the recommendations on this subject from boards of trade, universities and other public bodies, are also entitled to the greatest respect and consideration. But that leads to a further point which has been mentioned this evening. All that I have said thus far has had relation to the importance ol technical education; and I think every member of the House will agree that there is little room for difference of opinion as to the importance of this matter to Canada as a young nation seeking industrial supremacy be it ever so far removed. We cannot, I think, overestimate the importance of this work, no matter by whom it may be carried on. Much has been said of Germany. I think the commercial and industrial historv of Germany is most enlightening to this country. It was after the downfall of Napoleon that Prussia saw her opportunity to become a great nation. She started in the work of nation-building by laying the foundations sure and strong, bv endeavouring to establish without delay systems of technical training which would make her working-

men and artisans second to no others on earth. Then, alter the Franco-German war, the large indemnity paid by Trance left the provinces free to expend on technical education what they wotnd otherwise not have been au,e to devote to that object. From the fact that the provinces themselves made the beginning at the time they did, and from this other exceptional advantage, Germany has been able, since the time of the birth of the empire, to take the strides that have brought her to the position of industrial importance she holds in the world a.t the present time; and I think Canada is a young country, looking forward to tile part she shall play, as the largest and most import-an part of the British empire, can afford to take lessons out of the books of any other nation in the world and profit by them.
But there is left the doubt _ on the question of jurisdiction, and that is a matter which cannot be too carefully considered I do not believe that too much importance can be attached to the work of technical education to be done by the authorities whose duty it is to perform that work. But it is another question whether or not this parliament has the power to go into this question to the extent to which some speakers this evening have indicated they would like to see it do. The resolution asks only for a commission to inquire into the needs of this country. It suggests, however, that the commission should also report on ways and means. Other speakers have suggested that the government should do more than that-that it should assist in a financial way; and other speakers, the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Crosby) in particular, went so far as to express the wish that the word ' commission ' had been left out of the resolution altogether-though if it had been, I fail to see how there would have been any resolution left

and would prefer that the government should do something in a practical way. in the direction of instruction along technical lines. All of this raises a question which has been debated many times in this House, and one which we cannot consider too carefully-whether or not the good which might be done by the appointment of a body by this government to further the work of technical education might not be in part undone by the mischief which the appointment of such a body might create were the motives and purposes of this government in establishing such a commission not fully comprehended and understood. The hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) has said that communications have already been received to the effect that there would be no objection on the part of the provinces to such a course. Well, Sir. it seems to me that before the Dominion government should take the step suggested in the resolution, there should be some-thins more than this negative attitude on . Mr. KING.
the part of the provinces. It should not be a case of no objection, but a case of an earnestly expressed desire which the government should be asked to listen to._ I think, the risk should not be run of raising a great constitutional question in a matter of such great national importance until at least the exact position of this government with regard to this question is fully and rightly understood by the different provinces and by the people in the country. To my mind the section of the British North America Act which says that ' the legislatures may exclusively make laws in relation to education, undoubtedly gives to the provinces the right of legislation in all matters respecting education; and if this parliament were to attempt to legislate on matters affecting education, as set forth in this section. I think this parliament would be going beyond the powers which are given to it in the British North : meric a Act. But I am not so sure that the exclusive right to make laws with regard to education means the right to exclude the Dominion from gathering information on any subject which may be deemed a subject of national importance. However, that may be a debatable constitutional question, and in view of the importance of the subject of this discussinon, I think it would be well if the mover of this resolution would_ allow the government a further opportunity to consider the question from this point of view, and not press it to a division to-night. Assuming that we got over the question of jurisdiction all right, there is still the question of the advisability and the expediency of taking this step so long as there is any likelihood of that step being misunderstood; and I hope that one of the results of this debate will be that the true relationship of the provinces to the Dominion on this question of great national concern will be brought out in bolder and clearer relief than ever before, and if the subject be brought up again, as I hope it will be, there will be no doubt in the mind of any member of this House, or in any group of responsible persons outside, as to whether or not the Dominion would he trespassing in endeavouring to co-operate with the provin-oes-for it is co-operation alone that would be expected-to the extent the mover of this resolution would desire. I would beg to move therefore the adjournment of the debate.


Robert Laird Borden: Before the debate is adjourned, I desire to congratulate the mover of this resolution, (Mr. Guthrie) and the various other gentlemen who have snoken and who have shown such a wide range of information, upon having brought this matter so forcibly and clearly to the attention of the country. In a comnaratively new and almost undeveloped country such as Canada, it would be seen to be eminently

wise, in the first place, to take stock, as it were, of the resources which the country possesses, and in the next place endeavour to come to a conclusion as to the most effective way by which those resources can be developed. The industrial development of Germany has been alluded to by more than one speaker to-day. When we consider the thoroughness with which the German empire has laid the foundations of its great industrial development, and when we realize how comparatively nothing has been done in this country along the same lines, we cannot but wonder that Canada has made so great an industral advance as she has attained to. Her progress in that respect speaks volumes for the ability, energy and aptiiuue of our neople. 1 do not desire to labour the question of how important it is that there should be industrial training and technical education in this country. We are all pretty much agreed with regard to that. Take the professional man, the lawyer, the clergyman, you find that each of them has the advantage of a special training after he has finished his academic course. To a certain extent a farmer also has the advantage of such a technical training or education. But, as has been well said by the mover of this resolution (Mr. Guthrie) and my hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Smith) and others, when we come to look at the great majority of the labouring population, we find that they remain, in this respect, under enormous disabilities, which ought to be removed at the earliest possible moment.
My hon. friend the Minister of Labour (Mr. King) has made a very comprehensive speech. He has spoken very warmly on this point. He has spoken of the Yellow peril in the shape of industrial competition from the oriental countries, and this peril, he says, is not remote but it is at our door today. He has spoken of the disabilities of the working classes and the inability of our labouring population to utilize their time to the best advantage. He discussed many matters, and one would have thought that even so mild a resolution as that of my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) would have seemed to the hon. minister but a lame and impotent conclusion. The Minister of Labour, however, is not prepared to go even that far, and he conjures up some imaginary constitutional objection. I listened to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) with a great deal of interest, and I think that as regards the constitutional question, he need not have laboured it to one-tenth the extent he did. He made an absolutely convincing case so far as that is concerned. If the position of the Minister of Labour (Mr. King) be correct, the government has been violating the constitution of Canada for 35 or 40 years in the establishment of the military school in Kingston. But I have not heard of any province
raising any objection. But the hon. minister need not stop at the Kingston military school, let him look at the estimates of this year or any year, and he will find over and over again, where the government has spent moTiev bv the million on matters absolutely within the jurisdiction of the provincial legislatures. Does not my hon. friend know that his own estimates which he has just brought down, contain dozens of items for aid to undertakings purely local and absolutely within the jurisdiction of the local legislatures. Local works and undertakings, except in so far as they connect one province with another or some province with a country outside Canada, are purely and absolutely within provincial control, yet you can take the estimates and on page after page you will find money given by the $5,000, $10,000 and $100,000 to undertakings of that kind. The parliament of Canada has the right to vote money for any purpose that it may deem proper. It has voted money for purposes absolutely outside Canada. For example to aid the sufferers at San Francisco, to industrial exhibitions within our own country, subsidies to provincial railways which are purely works of a local character and under provincial jurisdiction, aid to arts schools, special lectures upon the advantages of the metric system, a grant to McGill university in aid of work" of this kind, schools for the examinations of masters and mates, to keep up the school at Kingston and for the establishment of experimental farms. When we have had illustrations. of the sort every year for the last 15 or 25 years in every set of estimates brought down, is it not absolutely perfect folly to talk about there being any constitutional objection whatever to granting aid immediately to technical education in this country. We can do it and no one can say us nay. If the Minister of Labour has no better answer to his own impressive speech than the one he gave at the end of it, I venture to think, he would do better to adhere to the first part of his speech, and not the last, and that the government should act in this matter at once. I would have thought that, after the information vouchsafed this afternoon, he would have said to my hon. friend from_ South Wellington:	Your motion is
well intended, you desire that a commission shall be appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the needs of Canada in respect of technical education, but we know the needs of Canada now, we know that this country is behind almost every country in the world in that respect, we have the example of Germany, we have the reports of the commissions in Germany, we have the example of the United States and the reports of the technical commissions in that country, we have the example of the British Islands and the reports of the technical commissions there, and consequently we have at least enough to know that some-

thing ought to be done and done quickly in this regard. Therefore, inasmuch as the last part of the motion simply desires a Teport on ways and means, and inasmuch as we know where the ways and means are to come from so far as the Dominion of Canada is to furnish them, namely out of the public treasury of this country, there seems to be no need for a resolution in this form. For this reason, I would have expected the Minister of Labour to say: I will propose to amend this motion by a more definite motion setting forth the absolute need of urgent and immediate action by the Dominion of Canada in order that Canada may no longer labour in this respect under t''e disadvantages from which she has suffered so long. Instead of that the Minister of Labour was constrained to suggest that the debate should be adjourned, that the motion should be, in effect, withdrawn, and that this session should pass without a single step being taken in this matter. I have thought it desirable to place this asnect of the question before the House. 1 say to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie 1 that I am entirely in sympathy with the object he ha., in view, that I trust action will be taken along the line he has suggested, if no other action can be taken, but so far as I am concerned I would greatly and infinitely prefer that a more definite and practical and speedy action should be taken than that which has been suggested in this resolution itself.


Mr. J. D. EEID.: Mr. Speaker, I must say I was greatly surprised at the stand taken by the Minister of Labour (Mr. King) upon this question. I would have supposed that we would have taken this matter into consideration and would have placed an amount in the estimates to at least make a commencement on me line suggested bv the member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie). Therefore, I was .surprised that the minister should move to sidetrack this issue. The action of the minister shows that the government have decided to take no further interest in the subject this session, and I hope that the House will divide and let us see whether the Minister of Labour is to be supported in his effort to sidetrack this important issue.
Mr. MOBLEY CURRIE (Prince Edward
County). Mr. Speaker, the question Taised bv the resolution of my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) has been shown by the discussion this afternoon to be perhaps of as much importance to the industry and commerce of this country as that of the tariff. Resolutions and memorials have been mentioned which have been presented to this House to show the im-Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
portance of the subject. I believe there a' e other indications which are perhaps of as great importance as these in showing the tendency of public opinion on this question. In the first place, I wish to reLc to the schools already established in the United States. We have there many schools for special industries, and a point which I believe is of importance is that there are in all parts of this country to-day young men who have learned their trades here and who are emigrating to the United States to take these courses in technical education in these schools. We have now stopped almost every other class of emigration to the United States, but with this one class we have not interfered, and I think it is high time that we took some steps to furnish our young men with the facilities which they are at present obliged to seek for in a foreign country. In the second Diace, it has been well said that the correspondence schools are attempting to carry out this work of technical education. That is very true, an immense amount of money is going to these schools. I do not believe that most people are aware of the number of men taking the courses in these correspondence schools. Some years ago I looked into this subject for a short time and I was surprised to find that one of these schools had enrolled as students at least 200,000 in the United States and Canada. That this large number of young men are attempting to obtain practical education in such an imperfect way shows the great need for education of this kind to-day.
I shad not discuss the importance of technical education; I believe wp are fully seized of that. What we have to discuss to-night is the question: Has the parliament of Canada a jurisdiction in this matter of technical education which it can take up and should take up and define? If it has such iurisdiction, I believe we should take advantage of the present occasion to take some steps in the direction of acting under that jurisdiction.
If the contention is raised, as I believe it was by the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) that this parliament has jurisdiction in the actual work of instruction in technical education, I cannot agree with it for several reasons. From the- simple reading of the British North America Act it is seen that by article 91 the federal government is given jurisdiction over those subjects not assigned exclusively to the provinces, and by article 93 education is assigned exclusively to the provinces. Some say that education should be subdivided, that we have in technical education something different from ordinary education. But I believe that the result of the thought of the best men to-day on this subject is that there is actually no dividing line be-

tween cultural education and technical education, that the one merges insensibly into the other and that this attempt to differentiate technical and cultural education has been a great obstacle in the advancement of all systems of the former. Again, it has been said that we have examples already, such as the Royal Military College at Kingston. I draw attention to the fact that the latter part of article 91 of the British North America Act says that subjects coming within the classes of subjects assigned to the legislative authority of Canada shall not be deemed to come within the classes of subjects of a private character assigned exclusively to the legislatures of the provinces, and it is only fair to consider the subject of military training as one which comes naturally within the jurisdiction of the Department of Militia and Defence. This being the case, in establishing the Royal Military College we have simply acted in accordance with the latter part of article 91 of the British North America Act. Again, in the case of agriculture, we see that by article 95 the Dominion parliament and the provincial legislatures are given concurrent jurisdiction, so that these two cases are exceptions and the rule, I think, judging by Die simple reading of the British North America Act, is that in the matter of actual instruction in technical education this parliament has no jurisdiction. However, I believe there is another and a more important reason why we should not interfere with the actual work of instruction in technical education. We have an example to go by in Germany. Thirty years ago they had the same discussion on the jurisdiction of the federal and state legislatures on technical education. At that time good reasons were given why technical education in Germany should be left to the states. In the first place, it grafted itself naturally on the system of common education; in the second place giving the states jurisdiction would give elasticity to the system, and in the third place, competition would be introduced. For these three reasons, the opinion of those who held that technical education should be placed under the jurisdiction of the states instead of the federal government in Germany had precedence. That action was taken in Germany on purely theoretical grounds. We have to-day the practical experience of Germany extending over a period of twenty or thirty years. The system has worked out splendidly and for that reason I believe we should not consider the advisability of this parliament undertaking any part of the actual instruction in the work of technical education. There is a third reason why I think we should not undertake that work and that is that we should be interfering with the excellent system of technical education which we already have
in embryo in the various provinces. The province of Nova Scotia and some of the other provinces have been referred to by preceding speakers and I wish for one moment to refer to the system in the province of Ortario. About a year ago there was a petition from the city of Brantford for the formation of industrial continuation classes in that city. This system of industrial continuation classes is a most important part of the system of technical education, and while I do not know what the result of the petition was, I know that it aroused discussion and every one feels today, in so far as industrial continuation classes go, that they are something that graft themselves naturally upon the public school system because these industrial continuation classes would utilize the public school buildings as well as many of the teachers and they would be simply for the most part classes continued in the public schools as they exist to-day. There is also a transformation going on in the province of Ontario in our high school system. We have a manual training department, a commercial department, an agricultural department, and it will probably be but a short time before we will have the remaining courses composed of the industrial, scientific and classical parts. When we have this one further change made in the high school system of Ontario, we will have the prototype of the gymnasia and the pro-gymnasia of the German system. In addition we have in Ontario the school of practical science in Toronto which corresponds with the third class of technical education in Germany represented by the great technical high schools. We have the fourth class represented in Germany by schools for particular industries and in Ontario this class is represented by the dairy school, the school of mines at Kingston and the agricultural college at Guelph. So, we have in Ontario already the skeleton of a system of technical education such as exists in the German states. For these reasons, for the reason that we have a good example in Germany of what can be accomplished by leaving the matter of technical instruction to the individual states, because of the reading of the British North America Act and from the fact that already we have in the provinces a system under way, I believe that this parliament will be very unwise in discussing seriously the question as to whether they have jurisdiction in this matter which would justify them in undertaking actual instruction in technical education. That being the case, the question arises:	Is there any function left
which this parliament can assume in the matter of technical education which would advance it? I want to refer to two or three things that I think are of some importance and which would result in some action be-

ing taken on the part of the parliament of Canada.
In the first place I want to say that if we took some action now we would define our exact position on this subject. It is evident to any one to-night that there is not a consensus of opinion as to what our exact position is, but if we took some action at the present time we would define that position and we would not have, as we had a year ago, the Minister of Education of the province of Ontario going about the country, making speeches, as reported in the press, to the effect that the province of Ontario were waiting to see what action the Dominion parliament would be prepared to take, before they took any action upon this matter of technical education. The mere fact that we have not already acted and defined our position has, for the time being, put off the discussion of the matter of technical education in Ontario, and I think that if this commission were appointed, or if some other action were taken by the government resulting in the definition of our position it would be an important thing for technical education in Ontario at least.
Eeference has been made in some of the speeches to the fact that this parliament would have it within its powers to grant money. While it is possible, I do not believe that it is an important subject. I just wish to refer in that connection for a moment to the cost of a system of technical education. The fact that we lay so much stress upon the granting of money for this purpose is owing to our belief that a system of technical education is a very expensive thing. Looking over a system such as that which exists in Germany we find that in some of the states the cost of the complicated system which they have there is between $200,000 and $300,000 a year. So that, I believe it fair to assume that a system of technical education could be established and put in a fair way of operation in any of the provinces for an annual expenditure of $100,000. That would not by any means be a very serious obstacle.
There is another reason and one which I think will appeal strongly to the Minister of Labour. In any consideration of the development of a system of technical education, as it exists in Germany, one is strongly impressed by the fact that unless you have the interest of the manufacturers and others interested in technical education aroused, the establishment of any system is bound to result in failure. You have to have the interest aroused first. You have to have a demand for a system before it can be a success. That being the case, I hope, Mr. Speaker, that I will be pardoned if I refer for a moment or two to some personal experiences. I have been interested in this subject for some time and


Mr. M. CURRIE.: often in travelling over the country I take occasion to talk with manufacturers on the train and in other places in regard to this subject. I usually find that there is amongst manufacturers an idea that this subject is important, but they usually think that it is of importance to some other manufacture than their own. They have no personal interest in it from the standpoint of their own manufacture. I want to illustrate that bv a concrete example. In the part of the country that I have the honour to represent the manufacturing industry is represented chiefly by the canning factories where fruits and vegetables are canned. The first man to undertake that work was Mr. W. Boutter, in Prince Edward county, over twenty years ago, and since I was a boy I have had a chance of seeing these factories in actual operation. I have seen valleys converted into level ground by being filled with spoiled fruit that went bad in the process of manufacture. I have seen the site for a factory made out of a marsh by being filled with spoiled goods. If we had a system of technical education for the instruction of those interested in canning factories it would be a great advantage to that industry. With that object in view, about seven years ago, I wrote out as complete a plan as I could for the establishment of an institution of that kind in connection with the Agricultural college at Guelph, where, in their chemical and bacteriological laboratories, they have facilities for such a course. At the same time I explained to the Hon. John Dryden that it would, of course, be necessary to get the interest of the manufacturers in this subject. It may be that at that time we did not have such intelligent manufacturers as the hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Marshall) and the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Lalor), but at any rate, after talking the matter over with them for six or seven years, I could never find any of them who would bring the subject to the attention of the Canners' convention. I only mention that to show that many _ of the manufacturers have not the active interest in the subject that they should have. It has been mentioned that steps have been taken in the United States to accomplish something in this matter of technical education. This brings me up to the point as to how it has been accomplished. The best work that has come into my hands on the auestion of technical education is the report of the commissioner of labour of the United States. That was distributed broadcast through the United States and has done more than any other one thing to give the people generally information on this subject and to stimulate the interest of all classes of people in it. There is a work that we can do, and I was very glad to hear that the Minister of Labour was about to collect material along this line. If the steps taken by the government re-
10S5

suited only in one thing and that was the Department of Labour being instructed to arouse the interest of manufacturers and others in this subject the establishment of that department would be a thing that we might be thankful for in the future. Therefore, I say that one of the great functions of this government is the stimulation of interest on the part of all classes in this great subject.
In the third place, there is something of a suggestion in a remark made by one of the speakers in regard to the Imperial Technical Institute of Berlin. This is a country of great resources; I think I am safe in saying that our undeveloped resoures are far and away greater than any we have yet developed. Our efforts should be directed towards developing our unknown resources and towards the utilization of the by-products of our different manufacturers which now go to waste. I believe it would be well within the jurisdiction of this parliament to establish a technical institute of the highest .class, and manned by men of the highest technical ability who would have as their duty the investigation of our unknown resources. For instance, just to mention only one out of the number, we have in Canada unlimited supplies of clay, felspar, and quartz which are the raw products of the china and porcelain industry, and I doubt if we have a single manufacturer of these articles in the Dominion. Again, if we look out of the windows of this building we ,can see at the mills on the other side of the river the great waste of sawdust which is going on, and it would be well within the duty of such an institute to devise means for its commercial utilization. I have been told that bearings could be made from this by-product which would be more useful than babbit metal or brass for the shafting of machinery. I will speak of only two examples of the utilization of by-products. Not many years ago a gentleman interested in the fish packing industry in Maine hired a young man named Lepage to look into some of the problems in connection with the curing fish, and within a year Mr. Lepage had discovered that a certain variety of glue could be made from the fish refuse, a simple discovery which resulted in his becoming a multi-millionaire. Take again the dye industry which has so enormously developed in Germany as a by-product of coal tar. As late as 1892, London had practically the monopoly of the indigo trade of the world, and Germany then imported about 4,000 tons of indigo yearly; but then came the discovery of Professor Hoffman, and to-day Germany produces three-fourths of the indigo product of the world, and instead of importing 4,000 tons a year, as formerly, she now exports 8,000 tons. The
experiments in connection with coal tar and other by-products have resulted in chemical discoveries which a year or two ago accounted for an export trade of about $200, 000,000 a year in Germany. In view of these results it is well that this parliament should consider the establishment of a Dominion institute of technology which would look to the development of our unknown resources and the utilization of the by-products of our existing manufactures.
Now, I believe that the general system of education in Canada is not excelled by that of any country in the world. The graduate in mathematics from one of our Canadian universities can go to one of the best schools in the United States and he will find that his Canadian mathematical training has resulted in putting him at least one year in advance of the graduate of Harvard, Yale or Princeton. If vou look at the curricula of the engineering schools of the United States you will find that mathematics are superficial and elementary compared with what is taught to the Canadian student. In the department of science you find the same condition. But when we want a man with high technical knowledge we have to take one of these American graduates who has been able to avail himself of the facilities afforded by technical education in the United States, although the ground work of his general education may be greatly inferior to that of the Canadian. It would be a grand thing for Canada if we were able to furnish our young men with the technical knowledge which would enable them to become great engineers and to erect, for example, such works as the Quebec bridge, without having to send for our experts to the United States. One Quebec bridge on top of the water instead of under the water would pay for a system of technical education in Canada for a long time.
Now, the function of the government of the German empire in connection with education is not, I fear, thoroughly understood in other countries. The pre-eminent function lies in the encouragement it gives to the associations of teachers and the associations of manufacturers and others interested in technical education, and under this system technical education in Germany has been unified and brought to its high standard. In most of the published works on technical education in Germany, in the English works at any rate, the assistance given by the German federal government to these associations is passed over as unimportant, while the Germans themselves look upon it from an entirely different view point. I notice that in the report of the Commissioner of Labour of the United States theTe are only a few lines dealing with this branch of the subject, and in consequence of this lack of information, until

three years ago the people of the United States were not seized of the importance of the relation of the federal government to the promotion of technical education. In the year 1906 there was formed the American association for the advancement of technical education in the United States, which at its second meeting in Chicago provided for an expenditure of $25,000 during the coming year for the advancement of technical education. At the second meeting of that association 18 states were represented, and at the third meeting every state in the Union had a representative present, so that our cousins across the line are now fully aware of the great importance of these federal associations for the advance of technical education. There again is a function which this parliament could assume. One of the recommendations of the American association at its second annual meeting was that the United States government should appoint a commissioner who would devote his entire time to a propaganda for the development and upbuilding of technical education throughout the states of the Union.
Now, Mr. Speaker, while I do not believe that the federal government has jurisdiction with regard to the actual instructional part of technical education, I do say that we can do something towards stimulating the interest of our Canadian people in this subject. I believe we could establish a chemical institution of the very highest order for the Dominion, and I believe we could give assistance to these large Dominion associations for the advancement of the cause. Perhaps in the future we might appoint a commission.	_ _
I was glad to hear from the Minister of Labour that the government was likely to give the matter serious consideration and I trust that the best men in the country will come to their aid. When this question became a very live one in Germany twenty years ago, Prince Bismarck did not consider it beneath him to give a great deal of his time and consideration to the question, and I shall quote a prediction made by Prince Bismarck at that time, After looking thoroughly into the subject, he said in substance that the nation which has technical schools has secured itself for commercial and industrial supremacy. That was said by Bismarck not twenty years ago, and at the present time we see that it has almost come true in Germany. I believe that will go down to history as one of the greatest predictions of one of the greatest statesmen. To-day we are giving a great deal of attention and thought to the matter of the Germany navy; but to-night we may well reflect that under the protecting influence of a system of technical education, Germany has already constructed a fleet of ironclads of commerce before which Mr. M. CURRIE.
the old wooden frigates of her commercial competitors have faded away like a toy flotilla. Mr. Speaker, I am in hearty sympathy with any effiorts which this parliament make make in forwarding a system of technical education in any way that lies within its jurisdiction.


Mr. WILLIAM THOBURN (North Lanark).: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of interest to the speech of the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) and those of other hon. gentlemen in favour of technical education. Indeed the textile trade of Canada owes a debt of gratitude to the hon. member for South Wellington for introducing to this House this most important question. Speaking from practical experience, I can assure this House that it would be a great benefit to the textile trade of Canada if we had technical schools established in the various provinces where textile manufacturing is carried on. While I say that on behalf of the textile manufacturers, I fully agree that technical schools should be established for every other industry that is carried on in this great Dominion. One of the things the workmen of Canada lack is technical education, and there is very limited means of getting such an education in Canada at the present time.
The hon. member for South Wellington has referred to the fact that the coarse wools of Canada are exported to the United States. These wools are manipulated there in a manner in which they cannot be in Canada, because there are in the United States a better educated class of mechanics, men who have had a thorough technical training, to manipulate that kind of wool. I know of no class of manufacturers in Canada who suffer more for the want of technically educated men than the textile manufacturers. In England and Germany this class of people get a thorough technical education, and consequently they are able to manipulate cheap raw material in such a way as to make it into a good-looking article which is sent to this country to the detriment of the Canadian manufacturers. Nobody knows better than the hon. Minister of Finance and the hon. Minister of Customs the difficultes which Canadian manufacturers have to contend with along that line. Deputation after deputation have waited on these hon. gentlemen in the effort to get this state of affairs remedied. The hon. Minister of Finance told us this afternoon that we might expect the budget speech before the holidays. Well, I can assure him that the textile manufacturers, especially those engaged in the woollen industry, are looking forward to that speech with a great deal of interest, in the hope that some measure of relief may be given to them. However, the question we are dealing with to-night has nothing to do with

the tariff. This is a question on which we may be thankful to find both sides of the House heartily agreed. Consider the great beneficial results that have come from the agricultural colleges established in the different provinces of this Dominion. Young men attend those colleges and get a technical education, and then go back to their farms and produce more grain to the acre and a better quality of grain, and breed better classes of cattle and horses. There are young men from these colleges attending farmers institutes and giving lectures, thus educating the young men who attend these institutes, but who cannot afford to attend the agricultural colleges. If we get such beneficial results from agricultural colleges, military colleges, medical colleges and business colleges, why not have established in this country technical schools in order that the manufacturers of this country may receive from those colleges similar benefits to those received from colleges I have referred to. I do not wish to prolong this debate, because it is getting late, but I do want to take the opportunty, from a manufacturer's standpoint, of expressing my conviction that no institutions of learning could be established in Canada that would impart more useful knowledge than technical schools. For these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I trust that the government will see its way clear to appoint a commission asked for by the hon. member for South Wellington.


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I had not the pleasure of being present in the earlier stages of the debate and consequently have missed a part of this very interesting discussion. I shall have to content myself with reading the earlier part of the debate in ' Hansard,' But what I have heard has enabled me to appreciate thoroughly the great importance of the subject under discussion. I must take exception entirely to the observation of an hon. gentleman opposite that the motion to adjourn is a motion to sidetrack this resolution; and while I propose to vote for the motion to adjourn, I do so on altogether a different ground. After the discussion we have had, after the abundance of information brought before the House, showing the great need of this movement in Canada, it would indeed be strange if nothing further should be done. We are all of the opinion that something should be done, and tire only question is what is the better way of doing it. I have no doubt that we have the power to spend our own money in the way we please. If, as a layman, I should venture to express an opinion on a constitutional question, I would on that point agree heartily with my hon. friend the leader of the opposition; but there may be room for doubt 35
as to whether we should organize the machinery for an elaborate educational system, even though we had the right to grant the money. It is not, however, necessary to enter on that branch of the question. If we agree that it is an important matter and something should be done, then it is for us to look about and see what is.the best way to do it. An hon. member of the opposition side said there should be no inquiry but that the Dominion should go right ahead and do something. Well, while appreciating the spirit that prompted the hon. gentleman to take that view, I do not agree in it at all. I think it is the duty of the provincial authorities in the first place to institute the work, but should they not do it efficiently, I do not say that the Dominion parliament should not step in and assist them. I am going to vote for the adjournment of the debate, not for the purpose of sidetracking the matter, but that we may have further opportunity of considering, not the wisdom of doing something, but the best way in which to do it. Take the province of Nova Scotia: that province has done a great deal of work and spent much money in the establishment of a system of technical education, and it would be eminently wise, before we proceed to deal with the question, to put ourselves in communication with its educational authorities and see how the Dominion and provincial authorities can work together. What is true of that province is equally true of the others. There is every desire on the part of the government to show our appreciation of this work, and I join most heartily in all I have heard this afternoon with regard to its necessity and importance, and in voting for the motion to adjourn, I do so in order that we may have the opportunity of considering further what is the best way to aid a movement which seems to have received the favour of the whole House.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES (Victoria).: Last year I asked the government some questions regarding its intention to establish some such institution in Ottawa or some other suitable part of Canada for the consideration of similar questions to those brought to our notice by the hon. member for South Wellington. There are three classes of technical education. One is such as might be granted by cities and municipalities for the development of artisans and mechanics along certain lines. The other would be such as come under the influence of the provincial authorities, for the development of matters purely connected with their own province; but there are many matters which evidently affect the Dominion as a commercial nation, a part of the great British empire, to be still closer connected with it in a very short time, I trust. These matters I think should be treated by the Dom-



inion at large. Let me name some of these, concerning which people from every part of the country are reaching for information. Take the question of the manufacture of steel. Patents are being held on the advanced processes of producing steel such as may drive every other industry, not using these advanced patents, out of the markets. Why should there not, - in connection with this development, be some institution at Ottawa where encouragement would be given and experiments carried on in order that the highest perfection might be attained in this very important industry? Only last year two patents were brought out, each of which, in its own sphere, practically revolutionized the trade and put every industry not using it at the mercy of those who do. The same may be said regarding copper. Then there is the question of sewage disposal. It is estimated by competent authorities that in a very few years our farms will he depleted of fertilizing elements and there will be nothing at the disposal of our farmers with which to replace them. I understand that the Americans are making gigantic strides in this regard. They are producing bacteria which, when mixed with the grain when sown, will draw the nitrogen from the atmosphere, and thus encourage the plant's life. There are various other processes of uniting carbon and phosphate with nitrogen. Why should not this government take up this matter, which is of vital interest to this country as a farming community, and have the experiments carried on in a government institution. I might also point to the question of producer gas being made from peat and all the various industries in that connection, which have been referred to by the Minister of Mines (Mr. Templeman). All our great northern country is rich in peat. Why should not the government pay the cost of carrying on these experiments in their establishments in the city of Ottawa, and thus save the cost to the individual. If this peat could be utilized profitably, it would place Canada in the front rank of manufacturing communities by giving us power cheaper even than the electricity from water-power. Moreover our supply of coal in central Canada depends on the United States. If peat could be profitably utilized for fuel, we would be absolutely independent of the United States in that regard. The experiment of utilizing peat should be conducted by the government. I know three or four gentlemen who have carried on experiments to develop that industry, and they lost their money. It ought to be the duty of the government to carry out these things in the experimental stages.
Every one knows that the dyeing and the dyes used in the trades and manufactures are also of very great importance to the development of the nation. There should be a scientific branch in connection with Mr. HUGHES.
the government to take up all this class of work. Progress in mining knowledge is being made all over the world, but I believe that if the government established an institution with highly skilled officers, advancement would be made very much more efficiently than by mere hap-hazard work on the part of individuals in mines here and there over the country. A very interesting matter was brought to my notice yesterday by Mr. Murray of Toronto. He had given an address in Montreal a few days before on the chemistry of the wool trade, a subject of which I had never heard before, but an explanation showed me that in this line there was a very important interest for the whole Dominion of Canada and an absolute need of a scientific investigation into the whole business. Then there is the development of nickel. One could mention a score of other branches of commercial industry all of which could be improved by having a bureau or a school of technology, an institute of some kind in Ottawa or elsewhere, where the best men in the country could be kept, even at high salaries. I am certain the country would endorse such an expenditure and it would be justified by the results.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) expressed a strong desire to do something. He said the Dominion government recognized the importance of the subject and had all the information necessary to deal with it. It seems strange to me if the government are so anxious to do something, the Minister of Labour, the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) are also anxious to do something, they should forget that we had a long discussion on this two years ago. At that time most of the members were anxious to see something done, but it was shelved in much the same way as it is being shelved to-night and we heard nothing more of it until to-night. The motion was placed on the Order Paper last year on January 28, it remained there until May 19, when we prorogued, but nothing was done. Now we have had the motion discussed at great length for the third time, and the_ Minister of Labour admits it is so very important he drew arguments from China and Japan and told us of the danger we were confronted with to-day from the industrial life of China. What was the remedy? To Christianize the Chinese so they would work less and keep more Sabbaths and I presume let the Canadians fall into the Chinese habits, work longer hours, and keep fewer Sabbaths, and then we would be able to compete with them. If it is so important that we should do so much to help the labouring class in this country why is it that the minister who is at the head of a department brought into being for that especial purpose, has allowed the whole summer to go

by and has permitted one of the most unfortunate disputes between capital and labour that this country has experienced to continue, apparently without making any effort to bring it to a close. I thought that he might have been of value to the country in this matter but he did not seem desirous to make any effort to be valuable. He will elaborate great theories and present strong arguments to the House on lines on which he is making no effort whatever to help the people. I think that if he had more of the practical in him and less of the theory it would be to better purpose. This is the third year we are going to sidetrack this question. How long will it be before it will be taken up in a practical way by the present government. The ministers admit that they have all the information that is required, but beyond collecting that information there is no effort on tile part of the government to doing anything.


Mr. J. D. TAYLOR (New Westminster).: I have pleasure in adding my voice to those raised in favour of the resolution of the hop. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) that this matter of the appointment of a commission on technical education be decided forthwith as opposed to the suggestion in amendment of the Minister of Labour that the matter should be indefinitely postponed. The Minister of Labour at least has the excuse that he was not personally cognizant of, and was not a party personally to the promises made by this government to the representatives of organized labour in Canada when early in this year they interviewed Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr. Lemieux, as representing the government and laid before them a series of requests for legislation which the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada desired to have passed. Replying to that delegation on the subject of technical education, Mr. Lemieux, on the 12th of January, 1909, nearly a year ago, stated, according to the published official report of the Trades and Labour Congress, that the appointment of a commission on technical education was under consideration. To my mind it is surprising that other members of the government who must be cognizant of the promise made by the Prime Minister and the then Minister of Labour, have not corrected the present Minister of Labour in the extraordinary position he takes on this occasion, and that when for the third year in succession the promoters of the idea of a commission on technical education come to this parliament they are told that they must wait indefinitely until the government gives consideration to this matter. As one of those interested in promoting the cause of technical education, interested particularly in seeing that effect is parliament to the desires of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada 35}
I must say that I can only regard the suggestion made to-night to adjourn the debate as evidence of the intention of the government to resist the suggestion to participate in the movement for technical education and to shelve the matter indefinitely. If there is any intention on the part of the government to appoint a commission later in the session I think it would well become some minister to tell us of that fact, to take us into his confidence and give us some reason for supporting the suggestion that instead of pressing the motion on the Order Paper we shall wait until it suits the pleasure of the government to tell us when the appointment is to be made. While I rose mainly to call attention to the definite statement made on the 12th of January last that the government had then under consideration the appointment of just such a commission. I wish to refer to one or two incidents brought out in the same report of the Trades and Labour Congress. The present Minister of Labour honoured that congress with his presence and he obtained, as might be expected, because the report of his eloquence had reached the congress before him, a most hearty reception. We read that the Minister of Labour received a tremendous ovation on entering the chamber. He made reference to many of the points the congress had under discussion and he also referred particularly to a matter which he has brought before us to-night." We heard with great interest that there was no other way under Heaven by which we could be saved from the menace of oriental competition except the adoption of some active measures in connection with technical education. We find that when the Minister of Labour addressed the congress he had a different idea as to what we should do to save ourselves from Chinese competition. We find it expressed in this extraordinary way:
He also referred to investigations conducted by the home and Canadian governments in China, and gave a brief synopsis of his observations while assisting in conducting these investigations in China, and stated that it might be well for the representatives of labour to study the effect the poll tax of $500 Canada had placed upon the Chinese was having upon the trade which the manufacturers of Canada were endeavouring to develop in China and the Orient.
Now when we contrast that as a chief menace to our trade with the orient in September last, with the statement to-night that the one thing we must do to save ourselves from oriental competition is to adopt a scheme of technical education, I think _we must come to the conclusion that the Minister of Labour, at least, is not serious. We find that the Trades and Labour Congress have a very different idea as to what this government means when it postpones from time to time the action which

their representatives have urged upon this House. We have a report in this book on the Bill introduced by the congress respecting an eight-hour law on government contracts; and on that occasion, as we}l as on this, the bug-a-boo of provincial rights was introduced as a reason why we should not deal with it. We find the parliamentary committee thus reporting:
His argument (speaking of the Hon. Mr. Lemieux) as to interference with provincial rights was answered by himself when he said that we could only pass such legislation as regards public works. That is all Mr. Ver-ville's Bill dealt with. But in any event there would be no conflict with provincial jurisdiction. The government did not think of provincial rights when it enacted the fair-wage clause nor when it made provision to prevent sweat-shop labour being employed on government work. There is no more conflict in the one case than in the other, and as for ' respect for the usages and customs ' of different localities, the very reason given, during the discussion of the fair-wage clause, by the then Minister of Labour, was, that the government should be a model employer and an example to other employers. It is all very well to refer to the dignity of labour, but it would be a greater compliment to assume that labour is intelligent enough to see through such arguments as those used by the Hon. Minister of Labour in the discussion of this Bill. The debate served a useful purpose at all events in showing what we have to meet when the Bill is next introduced.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I appeal to members of this House to remove from it the reproach levelled at it by the Trades and Labour Congress when they say in this official report that when the labour representatives introduced this Bill it was trifled with, and subterfuges instead of solid facts were advanced why it should not be dealt with. I say let us be men. If we are in favour of a grant for technical education, let us say so, to-night. If we are not in favour of it, let us be manly enough to say that we will not take up this matter, that the provinces must bear the sole burden, and that we will pay no heed to the resolution of the Trades and Labour Congress. Let us say so openly, and not put them off with the suggestion that this matter shall be postponed till some indefinite time. In conclusion I will read the request which is now before the government from the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada with respect to technical education.
Resolved, that this congress emphatically reaffirm its declaration in favour of the immediate appointment by the Dominion government of a commission on technical education, and that copies of this resolution be immediately sent to the Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and the Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, Minister of Labour.


Mr. LOUIS LAVERGNE (Drummond and Arthabaska).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.
I wish to say a few words in regard to that question. Though I sympathize with the idea which has inspired the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie), I confess that I cannot agree with the motion as it is framed. Therefore, if the wording of that motion were put to the vote on its own merit, I would be obliged to vote against it, whereas I am in favour of the proposed adjournment. We know bat everything relating to education is under the jurisdiction of the local governments, and for my part I would like the authority to remain vested with those governments. I do not want the federal government to interfere later on with our education affairs.
Just now we are secure from all danger with regard to education. I am anxious to keep for my province its self-government in its integrity, and I believe that all the other provinces are anxious also to preserve their autonomy. I would not therefore let anybody infringe upon it.
We have heard so much talk about the question of separate schools that we should not desire that matter to be brought up again. Our system is perfectly good, and 1 confess that I am against that motion if it is intended to deprive us of our rights with regard to education. If, on the contrary, the question is for the federal government to interfere only m order to give moneys with a view to assist provinces in the establishment of technical schools, I shall approve the motion, provided the moneys be given to the provincial governments and they have the right to control the appropriation of the funds and to manage them as they think proper, but not otherwise.
I think this motion is actually dangerous, because if it were adopted we in favour of separate schools would find ourselves, later on, in a very bad position.
As I have already said, if I were obliged to vote on the merits of this proposition, I would vote against it. But as the question is on the adjournment of the debate, I am in favour of this latter motion.


Hugh Guthrie: As mover of the resolution I may say a word on the motion to adjourn. After dealing with the question somewhat fully this afternoon, and endeavouring to impress upon the government the propriety of the motion, and also the expediency of appointing a commission forthwith, I hardly think it would be consistent for me now to vote for the postponement of my own motion. However, I accept in absolute good faith the statement made by the Minister of Labour in asking for an adjournment of this debate in order to give the government further time to consider the question. If I thought there was the slightest foundation for the statement of the hon. member for Grenville (Mr. DECEMBER 6, 1909
Reid) I would be the more inclined to press the matter with all the resources at my command. But I accept the statement of my hon. friend the Minister of Labour, and the positive assurance given to this House by the Minister of Finance that the government does feel in sympathy with the main purpose of this resolution, but requires further time for consideration. I was somewhat amused by the statement of my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) who seemed to complain that on this occasion there was a possibility of adjourning the debate, and that the question had been similarly adjourned indefinitely on a former occasion; and if the few members who were present on the former occasion were here now, they will perhaps also be surprised when they are told that the hon. member who moved the adjournment of the debate and postponed the question on that occasion, was my hon. friend from East Grey.
I might just state that while I myself am reasonably clear as to the constitutional rights of this parliament to go as far as this motion asks-and I am glad to know that I am supported in this view by the hon. leader of the opposition-I can tell the leader of the opposition that the gentleman who sits immediately to his right is not so clear. The hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) was good enough, at the six o'clock adjournment, to compliment me on the general tenor of my remarks but he saw fit to say that on the constitutional question I talked utter nonsense. So that, there is some difference of opinion on that subject also. However, as I feel satisfied that the government has evidently the intention of going ahead on this matter and desires only time for consideration, I do not ask any one to support what may be my vote if a division is taken. I would, for the sake of consistency, if there is a decision, have to vote for my motion, but I do not do so with the idea of antagonizing the government or of placing myself in a false position with regard to it. I realize that antagonizing the government cannot help the matter at all. I desire the support of the government, I desire the government to act, as I desire my motion to be carried out, whether amended or not, after consideration.
House divided on the amendment of Mr. King.
YEAS:
Messieurs
Aylesworth, Bickerdike, Borden (Sir F.), Brodeur,
Brown,
Bureau,
Cash,
Chisholm
(Antigonish),
McCraney,
McIntyre,
McKenzie,
McLean (Huron), McLean (Sunbury), McMillan,
Marcile (Bagot), Mayrand,
Meigs.
Clark (Red Deer), Clarke (Essex), Congdon,
Currie (Prince Edward),
Delisle,
Demers,
Douglas,
Dubeau,
Cerement,
Ethier,
Fielding,
Gauvreau,
Geoffrion,
Gervais,
Girard,
Graham,
King,
Knowles,
Kyte,
Lafortune,
Lanctot (Laprairie-Napierville), Lanctot (Richelieu), Lapointe,
Lavergne,
Law,
LeBlanc,
Loggie,
Lovell,
Low,
Macdonald,
McColl,
Miller,
Murphy,
Nesbitt,
Oliver,
Papineau,
Parent,
Paterson,
Pickup,
Pugsley,
Rankin,
Reid (Restigouche), Richards,
Robb,
Boy (Dorchester), Rutan,
Savoie,
Schell,
Sealey,
Seguin,
Smith (Stormont), Talbot,
Templeman,
Tobin,
Todd,
Tolmie,
Turcotte (Quebec County),
Turgeon,
Warburton,
White
(Victoria, Alta.), Wilson (-Laval).-78.
NAYS:
Messieurs
Armstrong,
Barnard,
Blain,
Borden (Halifax), Boyce,
Broder,
Burrell,
Campbell,
Clare,
Cowan,
Crosby,
Crocket,
Crothers,
Daniel,
Edwards,
Fowke,
Fraser,
Goodeve,
Guthrie,
Haggart (Winnipeg), Herron,
Hughes,
Jameson,
Lake,
Lor tie,
Macdonell,
McCarthy,
Maddin,
Meighen,
Middlebro,
Monk,
Nan tel,
Osier,
Owen,
Price,
Reid (Grenville), Rhodes,
Roche,
Schaffner,
Sexsmith,
Sharpe (Lisgar), Sharpe (Ontario), Smyth,
Sproule,
Staples,
Stewart,
Taylor (New
Thoburn,
Thornton,
Verville,
Wallace,
White (Renfrew), Wilcox (Essex), Wilson (Lennox & Addington), Worthington, Wright.-56.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and debate adjourned.
Mr. BEATTIE.: Mr. Speaker, I wish to apologize. I had forgotten that I was paired with mv hon. friend (Mr. Lloyd Harris) and I ask that my vote be stricken off.


Mr. SMYTH.: The hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) has not voted.


Mr. BRADBURY.: I was paired with the hon. member for Assiniboia. Had I voted I would have voted against the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What business will be taken to-morrow?


William Stevens Fielding: The railways branch Bill, the Bill respecting the government employees provident fund, the Bill of the Minister of Marine respecting water carriage of goods, and if we have time we will go into supply.


Robert Laird Borden: What estimates?


William Stevens Fielding: If the Minister of Public Works can be here we will take his estimates; if not we will take Inland Revenue and Customs.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, December 7, 1909.