1909-03-03

QUESTIONS.


Mr. FOSTER asked:: What was the total payment in 1896 to the permanent Civil Service employees of the inside service at Ottawa, and of those employees not in the then Inside Civil Service, who were paid out of lump votes and Civil Government Contingencies, respectively, in the branches and departments added to the Inside Civil Service by the Act of 1908, and what is the sum estimated for the similar divisions for the year 1909-10?


Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance).: We are collecting the information, it is not yet ready. I would ask that the motion stand.


LEVEL CROSSINGS ON GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Mr. LENNOX asked:: 1.	Referring to press reports accrediting Mr. Hayes of the Grand Trunk Railway as saying that there are 50,000 level crossings on the Grand Trunk Railway system in Canada, and to the return brought down to the House on the 16th instant gave 14,999 as the total number of level orossings in Canada on the 30th June last, (a) are the figures of the return correct, (b) what is the number of level crossings on the Grand Trunk Railway system in Canada, (c) how many of these are said to be protected, (d) in what ways are they protected, and how many of eaoh class?
2.	Of how many of these crossings (a) protected,^ (b) unprotected, have the government or Railway Board plans, drawings or photographs?
3.	Of Grand Trunk unprotected crossings,
(a)	how many according to the company's statements to the board, require protection,
(b)	how many have the board claimed to require protection or (c) has the question been taken up at all between the board and the company?
4.	About what amount is said to be the cost of installing a set or pair of gates at a railway crossing, say in Ontario or Quebec, (a) in a city, town or village, (b) on a country highway or elsewhere, and (c) what is the ordinary average annual cost of up-keep, exclusive of attendance?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	I am not prepared to say how many crossings the Grand Trunk Railway Company have in Canada, but I understood Mr. Hays to make the statement that there are about 3,000. It seems to me that it would be comparatively correct The Board of Railway Commissioners have not the plans
of the Grand Trunk Railway system. These plans were filed many years ago, probably with the government, and long before the board was in existence. The only plans that the board has are locations made by railways since 1904. Plans previous to that date are with the Department of Railways and Canals.
2.	Submitted herewith is a list of the plans of the larger cities and the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific Railway Companies are supplying the smaller ones at the present time showing what crossings are protected and unprotected in the cities.
3.	No statement has been furnished by the Grand Trunk Railway Company to the board as to what crossings they think require protection, and while a large number of orders have been made ordering protection, it does not appear that the question of general protection has ever been taken up by the board with the company.
4.	The average cost of installing a gate is about $600. That would be approximately $700 in a city where the street is wider and a tower is used and $500 on a crossing in the country. With a watchman, fuel for his equipment, oil for his lights, shovels, etc., the average up-keep for a gate operated in day time only would be $600 per year. If operated day and night $1,200. This would cover all contingencies for ordinary repairs to the gate.
List of City Plans, Eastern Lines.
Belleville, city plans, shows crossings.
Guelph, city plan, shows crossings.
Hamilton, city plan, shows crossings.
Ingersoll, city plan, shows crossings.
London, city plan, Canadian Pacific Railway plan, shows crossings.
Montreal, city plan, shows Canadian Pacific crossings; Canadian Pacific plan shows Cote St. Paul; Grand Trunk plan of terminals, crossings; Canadian Northern Quebec Railway location city.
Ottawa, city plan.
Quebec, Canadian Pacific Railway plan.
Toronto, city plan, showing Canadian Pacific crossings.
Toronto, city plan showing Grand Trunk
crossings.
Woodstock, Grand Trunk partial plan.
Niagara Falls, Grand Trunk street crossings.
St. Catharines, Grand Trunk street crossings.
Brantford, Toronto, Hamilton and Brantford location, city.
Edmonton, city plan
Medicine Hat, city plan.
Regina, Canadian Pacific Railway yards.
Vancouver, city plan.
Winnipeg, Canadian Northern Railway yards.
Winnipeg, Canadian Pacific Railway yards.

Fort William, Canadian Pacific Railway yards.
Port Arthur, Canadian Pacific Railway yards.


EXPENDITURE ON NEWMARKET CANAL.
Mr. WALLACE asked:: 1.	How much money was spent on the Newmarket river canal on the Holland river, before March, 31, 1908?
2.	How much money was spent in April. May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December, 1908?
3.	What contracts were let since the 31st March, 1908?
4.	Were tenders asked for?
5.	Who were the contractors?


Hon. GEO  P.@: GRAHAM	(Minister	of
Railways and Canals):		
1. $31,444.26		
2. April	. ..$ 440	06May	. . . . 10,330	00June	. . .. 12,168	72July	. . .. 10,073	26August	.. .. 10,962	50September	. . .. 26,986	50October	.. .. 43,218	48November	.... 22,145	73December	. . . . 20,548	403.	Contract section 2, with John Riley 12th February 1908, and assigned to the York Construction Company, Limited, on the 3rd April, 1908, $652,009.50.
Contract with the Lakefield Cement Company on the 7th July, 1908, for 5,000 barrels cement at $2, $10,000, less $2,000 for empty sacks returned value of contract, $8,000.
Contract with the Hamilton Bridge Company on the 10th October, 1908, for three bridges as follows:
Green) ane	$ 6,482 00
Yonge street	 5,655 00
2nd Con. Road	 5,655 00
Total	$17,792 00
Contract Lakefield Portland Cement Company, February, 1909, for 15,000 barrels cement at $1.60 per barrel less bags, amount of contract, $18,000.
4.	Tenders for all work now under contract were asked for.
5.	The York Construction Company for section 2. The Lakefield Cement Company for cement. The Hamilton Bridge Company for bridges. Section 1, is not under contract.


POSTMASTER AT SOURIS, MAN.
Mr. SCHAFFNER asked:: 1.	Has J. Dolmage been dismissed as post master at Souris, Manitoba? If so. whe*>?
2.	Were there any complaints made agains! Mr. Dolmage as postmaster? If so, what was the nature of the complaints?
3.	Was any investigation made into tnr. manner in which Mr. Dolmage conducted th office? If so, when and by whom?


Mr. GRAHAM.: 


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEGX (Postmaster General):: 1.	Yes. Instructions were given to inspector on the 15th January, 1909. The office was transferred to the new postmaster on the 28th January, 1909.
2.	The removal of the postmaster at Souris was directed upon the ground of political partisanship.
3.	No formal investigation was considered necessary.


WALLACE BRIDGE WHARF.
Mr. RHODES asked:: 1.	Was the wharf which was constructed at Wallace Bridge, N.S., during the year 1908, built by contract or by day labour p
2.	If by contract, (a) what was the amount,
(b)	to whom was it given, (c) was it let by lender? If so, was it let to the lowest tenderer ?
3.	Who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of the various tenders, respectively?
4.	If constructed by day labour, (a) what are the names of the several persons employed, (b) what rate per day did each man receive, and (c) what total amount?
5.	If any horses or teams were employed, from whom were they engaged, at what rate per day, and what is the full amount paid to each person in this connection?
6.	From whom was the site for the wharf purchased, when was it purchased, and what was the price paid?
7.	If the wharf was built by day labour, (a) what prices were paid for the materials used in its construction, (b) what quantity of each kind of material was used, (c) from whom were the various materials purchased, and (d) were they purchased by tender?
8.	If by tender who were the tenderers and what is the amount of each tender?
9.	What is the height, length.and breadth of the wharf?
10.	At what date did actual work begin at the site of the wharf, and when did it cease?
11.	What is the total cost to date, and is the wharf now completed?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 2 and 3. Day's labour.				
(a)	(b)		(c)	
	Per	day.


Arthur W.: Scott ..	. .$2	50	$107	50


Mark Harpell .. ..: . . 1	50	61	50


George Scott .. ..: .. 1	50	39	00Simpson Langville . -	.. 1	50	37	12Manson Meade.. ..	. . 1	50	20	63


James Patreguin ..: . . 1	50	57	00


Alexander Slack ..: . . 1	50	33	75


James Sullivan.   . ..@: . . 1	50	45	38Roy Sullivan	. . 1	50	33	00


James Langville ..: . . 1	50	27	75Isaac McBurnie.. ..	. . 1	50	27	75


Edgar Sullivan .. ..: . . 1	50	41	25


Avard Woodland ..: . . 1	50	11	25Fred. Battye	. . 1	50	8	25

5. George Scott	
2 25	3 37Manson Meade	
2 25	18 00

6.	Site is being purchased for $50 from


Mr.  J. L.@: MeKim.
7 and 8. (a and b).
3,471 feet logs, 9 inches at top, at 9
cents per foot	$312 39
24 feet logs, 9 inches diameter, at 8
cents per foot	
1	92450 feet logs, ballast poles at	2	cents	9	0020 ballast poles at 60 cents	each..	12	00
634 feet logs, 6 inches at top, at 6
cents per foot	 38	04
94 lineal feet square timber, 10 by
12,	at 16 cents	
15	04200 tons of stone at 50 cents	per ton	100	00
7371 tons of stone, undelivered, 20
cents per ton	
147	5016 loads of stone at $1 per load....	16	00Smith work	
15	35Hire of scow	
10	00Hardware	
65	80
Wallace Bridge, Nova Scotia.
7.
(c)	Arthur W. Scott	$ 47 10J. B. Woodland	
282	88Manson Meade	
29	50


Norman F.: McFadden	
20	00M. P. Slack	
28	00H. A. Betts	
15	35Edgar Henderson	
25	00Fred. Battye	
41	92James Annis	
31	02McDonald Brothers	
51	57J. L. Kun & Company	
160	70George Thompson	
10	00

(d)	Materials were procured by foreman in usual manner, at market prices.
9.	The wharf consists of a rock bank 32 feet long, 24 feet wide and 11 feet high, and of solid cribwork, 85 feet long, 15 feet high at the outer end and 20 feet wide on top, with the exception of 30 feet of its length which is 40 feet wide.
10.	Commenced 7th October, 1908; ceased 30th November, 1908.
11.	(a) $1,315.54; (b) Portion constructed is complete and small vessels can use it.


DREDGING AT ST. JOHN, N.B..
Mr. FOSTER asked:: 1.	What dredging work is now being done in the harbour of St. John, New Brunswick, by whom, at what points, and what dredges are employed?
2.	Is this work being done under contract after public competition? If so, what tenders were received, and when, what is the date of contracts, the quantity to he removed, and the rates paid therefor?
3.	What dredges are being employed, of what dipper and depth of capacity?
4.	Were adequate surveys and borings made of the portions now being dredged? If so, when and by whom?
5. If the Maritime Dredging and Construction Company is doing any part of the work, who are the principal men connected therewith ?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	At the Ballast wharf, by Mr. J. S. Gregory, with orange peel dredge 'Asp'. At the Beacon Bar, by the Maritime Dredging & Construction Co., with the dipper dredge 'Iroquois'.
2.	(a) Yes.
(b)	Ballast Wharf-
J. S. Gregory, received December 17, 1908.
Maritime Dredging & Construction Co., received December 18, 1908.
Beacon Bar-
Maritime Dredging & Construction Co., received October 5, 1908. Dominion Dredging Co., received October 5, 1908.
G. S. Mayes, received October 5, 1908.
(c)	Ballast Wharf-Date of contract, February 8, 1909.
Beacon Bar, contract not yet signed, order in council passed February 16, 1909.
(d)	Ballast Wharf-Estimated quantities,
32,272 cubic yards, scow measurement.
Beacon Bar, estimated quantities, 2,193,000 cubic yards, scow measurement.
(e)	Ballast Wharf-Towed to dumping
grounds, rock, $5.00; other materials, 30c.
Beacon Bar-Scow measurement, rock or boulders exceeding two cubic yards, $4.90; other materials, 39Vfcc. Cast over-Rock or boulders exceeding two cubic yards, $3.00; other materials, 30c.
3.	Orange peel dredge 'Asp', 1% yard dipper, reach unlimited, capacity 100 cubic yards per hour. Dipper dredge 'Iroquois', 3 yard dipper, reach 27 feet, capacity 250 cubic yards per hour.
4.	At Beacon Bar-In 1898, surveys by Engineer E. T. P. Shewen; borings made under direction of Mr. C. P. Brown, division engineer of the C. P. R., in December, 1906, and adopted by Engineer Shewen; further surveys made by Engineer J. K. Scammell in September, 1908.
4.	At Ballast Wharf-Surveys made under direction of Engineer J. K. Scammell, in August, 1908.
5.	The only information in possession of
the department is that the tender is signed as follows:	'The Maritime Dredging &
Construction Company, per John E. Moore, manager.'
PURCHASE OF OSHAWA HARBOUR. Mr. HUGHES-by Mr. Geo. Taylor-asked:
1.	When did the government purchase Oshawa harbour?

2.	'Prom whom was the harbour purchased
3.	What was the price paid?
4.	Who conducted the negotiations on behalf of the harbour?
5.	To whom was the cheque made payable ?
6.	If the money was paid to a company, who constituted the company?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	April 8, 1901.
2.	Oshawa Harbour Company, Limited.
3.	$7,500.
4.	Representations were made to the government for the purchase and improvement by Messrs. L. Burnett, M.P., Wm. Ross, M.P., the mayors of Oshawa, the town clerk of Oshawa, the municipal clerk and the reeve of East Whitby.
5.	Oshawa Harbour Company, Limited.
6.	No information in the department.


DEPARTMENT OP MARINE-BOOKKEEPING.
Mr. LENNOX asked:: What is the expense occasioned by change of methods in the Department of Marine and Fisheries as the result of Mr. Falconer's work?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: The initial expense of buying books to instal the Falconer system in the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the various agencies was $2,916. A part of this expense would have had to be incurred for ordinary renewals or for books required by the extension of the agencies. The annual expense since that time has not shown any increase.


IMMIGRANTS COMING INDIRECTLY
Haughton Lennox: How many immigrants, British subjects, who have come to Canada otherwise than by continuous journey from the country of which they are natives or citizens and upon through tickets purchased in that country, have landed in Canada and settled here since 27th of May, 1908?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior).: 1,556.


GOVERNMENT TELEGRAPH STATION SUPPLIES.
Mr. BURRELL asked:: 1.	Who are the contractors for the carrying of the supplies of the government telegraph stations, north of Quesnel?
2.	What are the terms of such contract, and on what date was it let?
3.	Were tenders for this work advertised for in the usual way?
4.	Did the contractors purchase from the government a pack train for this work? If so, what was the precise nature of such pack train and equipment, and what was the price paid ?


William Pugsley: 


Mr. HUGHES.: 1,	2, 3 and 4. In the course of and up to the time of completion of the construction of the Yukon telegraph the freighting of the material and supplies was effected by means of pack trains employed by the department. After the completion of the line in 1901, however, there was no need for the all-y ear-round maintenance of the pack train; the only requirement then being the once-a-year distribution of provisions, &c., to the several stations along the line, which distribution, it was thought, might very well be dealt with incidentally by the general freighters. Accordingly, in June, 1902, the department's intention was publicly announced at Hazelton through the agent there, and, of three offers received, the one from Messrs. C. Barrett & Co. (viz.: $75 per head purchase price for the pack animals and a flat rate charge of l7i cents per pound for deliveries between Quesnel, Hazelton and the Ninth Cabin, the next station south of Echo lake) being the best and considered advantageous, was accepted and a contract entered into, and has since been annually renewed.
At the same time (June, 1902), a contract was entered into with Mr. J. F. Gal-breath (the only freighter operating in that district) for the section of 287 miles between Echo lake and Nakina, the prices charged ranging from 3 to 25 cents per pound according to distance. This contract, being considered fair and just by both parties to it, has likewise since been annually renewed.
The distribution of supplies along the line beyond Nakina to Dawson is done by the water and rail facilities at the regular rates of transportation without contract.


ORIENTALS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. RALPH SMITH-by Mr. Gutherie-asked:
1.	How many Orientals were there in British Columbia on January 1, 1909?
2.	How many of these were Chinese, Hindus and Japanese, respectively?
3 How many Orientals have been naturalized as British subjects up to the above date?
4.	How many Orientals came into Canada during the month of January, 1909?
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior):: 1.	Number estimated, approximately, 38,258.
2.	Chinese, 17,297; Hindus, 5,131; Japanese, 15,848.
3.	Up to June 30, 1908, 7,442 had been naturalized. No later returns.
4.	55.


WEEKLY CIRCULAR TO LIBERAL PRESS.
Mr. J. D. TAYLOR asked:: 1. With the respect to the weekly letter to the Liberal press, declared to have been passed through the mails during the recess of parliament free of postage under the frank of

' J. B., Solicitor General,' during what periods has this circular letter been so franked?
2.	Is the letter printed by the order or at the expense of any department of the government, or at the Government Printing Bureau? If so, what department?
3.	Is the matter of the letter prepared by the order or at the expense of any department of the government? If so, what department?
4.	If not prepared or printed by official authority, by whom are the letters presented to be franked?
5.	What has been the average number franked each week, as nearly as can be stated in case no record has been kept?
6.	Is the franking privilege of the Department of Justice being applied to any other matter of this nature?


Hon. JACQUES BUREAU (Solicitor General) :: 1.	From April 28, 1907, to November 27, 1907, and from July 21, 1908, to January 19, 1909.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	The mailable matter in question was never presented by anybody to be franked. It was delivered by the printer to Mr. Bureau, and by him distributed upon his own responsibility.
5.	On the average from seventy-five to one hundred.
6.	No.


EXPENSES RE LOANS.
Mr.   SAM@: 
William Stevens Fielding: As the answer to this question will be voluminous I would ask to have it stand as a notice of motion.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Stands as a notice of motion for a return.


MILITARY BUILDINGS AT KINGSTON.
Mr. EDWARDS moved:: For the production of the original tenders received in response to advertisement calling for tenders for the erection of the building at Kingston, R.M.C., intended for barracks accommodation for stables, and also for a return showing the advertisement and the papers in which inserted.
Mr. EDWARDS also moved:
For the production of the original tenders received in response to advertisement calling for tenders for the erection of the Veterinary Hospital at Kingston, and also for a return showing the advertisement and the papers in which inserted.


William Pugsley: There is no objection to these motions provided they be amended according to the arrangement of last session: That these tenders be simply laid on the table and then returned to the department so that they may not become permanently a part of the records of the House.
Motions amended agreed to.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
For a return showing in respect of the government steamship ' Stanley ' the following information for the years 1894 to 1908, inclusive:-The total yearly wages of officers, engineers, seamen and other hands aboard; the total wages paid for handling freight at Pictou and at other ports; the total wages paid for loading coal at Pictou and at other ports; the total quantity and cost of coal; the total quantity of meats and poultry used, and cost of same; the total quantity of fresh milk used, and cost of same; the total quantity of evaporated or condensed milk used and the cost of same; the total of other provisions used and cost; the total number of trips, winter service; the total number of passengers carried and fares collected; the total number of meals served and cash collected for same; the total freight carried and charges collected for same; the total amount paid for repairs to hull; the total amount paid for repairs to machinery, furniture, &c.; the total amount of men, work, machinery, furniture, &c.; the total expense of steamer for each year; the total salary of agent at Pictou and at Charlottetown, respectively; the total number aboard of officers, engineers, seamen and other hands, respectively. The same information in respect to ss. 1 Minto/ -Mr. Maddin.
For a return showing how many post offices have been transferred in the province of Manitoba since November 1, 1908; who the
[Stage Direction]


former postmasters were and who the present postmasters are, with the names of offices; and the reasons assigned for the transfers.-Mr. Eoche.
For a copy of all tenders received for the construction of the following sections of the eastern division of the National Transcontinental Eailway, together with the itemized schedules of the engineer's estimates of quantities on which the award of contracts was based, the sections referred to being those mentioned in the answer of the Minister of Railways and Canals in the House on the 13th April, 1908, as follows:-

[Stage Direction]
Mileage from Moncton.	Description.	No. of One Miles.	Amount of Estimate on which Contracts were let.	Date of	From	To	Contract.	Comple- tion.$ cts.	000	50.00	Moncton to near Chipman 	50	00	989,895 90	Mar. 14,'07	Sept. 1, '0850 00	58 55	Near Chipman easterly 8'55 miles	8	55	289,190 62	Aug. 23,'07	Aug. 1, '0858-55	97 60	Near Chipman westerly to i.C.K. cross-	39	05	767,434 95	Mar. 28,'08	Sept. 1, TO97 60	164 00	... [DOT] [DOT] * [DOT] [DOT] 	
I.C.R. crossing to Mile 164	66	40	1,898,124 21	„ 28,'08	1,10164 00	195 80	Mile 164 to Grand Fall	31	80	1,646,253 65	„ 28,'08	„ 1, TO195 80	25G G8 Grand Fall to New Brunswick boundary	CO	88	1,385,941 09	.. 9,'07	m 1, TO256-68	309 74	N.B. boundary to 150 miles east of Que-	5	bee Bridge	143	06	2,377,409 00	„ 28,08	1, TOf From Quebec Bridge 150 miles eastward	8	89	1	309 74	459 74	[DOT]j Quebec Bridge link (not included in	V 5,011,346 50	„ 9, '07	„ 1, '091	11	1	459-74	509-74	Quebec Bridge westerly 50 miles	50	00	1,489,537 92	May 15, '06	1, '07509 74	609 74	50 miles west Quebec Bridge to 150 miles	west	100	00	3,807,719 54	„ 15, '06	„ 1, '07609-74	654'74	150 miles west Quebec Bridge to near	45	00	Waymontachene	>
1,691,073 41	Mar. 13,'07	.. 1, '08654-74	656-07	To be included in this contract	1	33	J	656 07	877-75	Near Waymontachene to near Harrica-	naw River	221	68	Not let.	877 75	1,027-75	Near Harricanaw River to Junction T.	&N. O. Ry	150	00	3 386,901 42	„ 14,'07	„ 1,'091,027-75	1,127-75	Junction T. &N.O.Ry. for 100miles west	100	00	3,936,566 00	„ 28,'08	ii l.TO1,027-75	1,171-85	100 miles west of Junction T. & N. O. Kv.	to west end of District ' D '	44	10	Not let.	1,17185	1,334-35	West end of District ' D ' w-esterly ...	162	50	m	1,33435	1,40935	From 191} miles west of Mud River, east-	erly	75	00	2,101,499 88	„ 28,'08	„ 1,'101,40935	1,42976	From 19^ miles west of Mud River to	west end of District ' E '	20	41	Not let.	1,429 76	1,557'80	From westward District ' E * to Lake	Superior Junction	128	04	II	1,557-80	1,804-66	From Lake Superior Junction to west	bank of Red River	246	86	13,010,398 92	May 15,'06	.1 1,'07
-Mr. Lennox.
For a return showing the various quantities of work of each description or class actually executed by the several contractors and certified as correct by the engineers and paid for up to 31st December, 1908, upon the several sections of the eastern division of the National Transcontinental Railway, where the sections have not been completed the various chief engineers' estimate of the quantities of the various class of work remaining to be executed, together with an estimate of the cost of completing the same, based on the contractors' prices attached to each tender.- Mr. Lennox.
For a return showing, with respect to leases granted since 30th June, 1896, for timber on Dominion lands in British Columbia, the names and addresses of lessees, the date, Mr. PUGSLET.
term and acreage of each lease, and the bonus received for the same.-Mr. Taylor (New Westminster.)
For a return showing, with respect to prosecutions since 1896 for violation of postal law, the nature of each offence alleged, the place of residence of person charged, and the rosult of each trial and penalty imposed.- Mr. Taylor (New Westminster.)
For a return showing the amount on deposit in the Government Savings Department on October, 1, 1889, October 1, 1896, and October 1, 1897 and 1898; how many officials were employed in connection with the management of this fund in the years 1888, 1890, 1898, 1900 and 1908; the cost of management of this fund in the years 1888, 1890, 1898, 1909 and 1908.-Mr, Sharpe (Ontario.)

Mr. LAPOINTE (Kamouraska).: (Translation.) Moved:
That in the opinion of this House it would be m the interests of agriculture that new experimental stations should be located at certain places removed from those now in existence, where the conditions of climate and soil are different. That especially an experimental station should be established and put in operation in the eastern part of the province of Quebec.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, the resoluton I
have the honour to submit to the consideration of this House calls for the discussion of a question that is of vital interest to the most numerous and important class of this country.
Agriculture is the main source of wealth of Canada. I need no statistics to establish that Canada is above all an agricultural country and that the farming population exceeds considerably the combined population of those engaged in industrial, commercial and professional pursuits. The annual value of our farm products largely exceeds the collective value of the products of all our other industries.
Things being so, agriculture must take the first place in the minds of the economist and the politician of this country.
The future of Canada rests largely upon the_ place that we shall occupy as far as agriculture is concerned.
. In other countries, the farming industry is far from being inactive. Several countries are actually competing on the markets of the world*- they are perfecting their methods; they are developing and enlarging their cultivated areas; they are growing -products of a better quality and they are making every effort to remove all competitors.
Canada cannot afford to look passively at that struggle. But if we want to see our country take active part in the struggle, if we want our farmers to compete successfully with those of rival countries, they must be aided in their efforts by all the advantages that are to be derived from scientific knowledge, observation and new methods, without which no real progress can be obtained.
If the majority of our farmers whose daily toils give to the soil its productive value were to be shut out of the achievements of modern science, Canadian agriculture would be doomed.
The population as a whole must be in such a position as to take advantage of scientific discoveries, and to attain that end in a practical way, the special conditions of each section of the country and the distinct fitness of the people inhabiting these sections must be taken into consideration.
By the establishment of experimental
61J
stations in different parts of Canada, the federal government has taken a step in the right direction.	[DOT]
These experimental stations are designed to bring under the observation of our farmers the results obtained by the most perfected methods of farming in each region, to show them how the yield in wheat, vegetables, &c., can be increased by a judicious choice of manures, of seed grains, by the use of a new agricultural implement.
When a farmer living in a district where the yield in wheat is scarcely five bushels to the acre, can see a nearby field yielding 15 or 20 bushels to the acre, if he can be convinced that extra charges for seed and manure, in obtaining that result, are considerably less than the value of the increased yield, he cannot but return from his visit to the experimental station with the conviction that it is possible for him to do better than what he has been doing in the past.
It has been said that agriculture is a school for common sense, observation and practical notions. If it is so, no better means can be devised to supplement our agricultural wealth, than to materialize the scientific formulas and give the actual proof of possible achievements by the comparison of two fields, one yielding fifteen bushels of wheat, and the other, in the neighbourhood, yielding one-half or two-thirds more, and that without the aid of any theory.
Every country the world over has realized the vital importance of establishing experimental stations in different parts of the farming districts, and of increasing the number of these stations from year to year.
The United States are unquestionably in the lead. Under the terms of the Act of Congress of the 2nd day of March, 1887, the American government pays annually $15,000 for an experimental farm in each state and territory in the union. Special Acts also provide for the establishment of such farms in Alaska, Hawaai and Porto Rico.
In 1904, they had in the United States, 60 experimental stations, of which 55 were receiving $15,000 annually from the federal treasury. There are also, in the United States, several branch stations.
The total amount these farms could dispose of in 1904 was $1,508,820.25; of that amount the federal treasury contributed $719,999.67. The balance of $788,820.58 consisted in allocations from the different Rtates, in the sale of farm products, in fees for analysing samples, and in different other sources. In the year 1904, 795 people were employed for the administration of these farms and the carrying on of the experiments.
Besides the scientific reasearches of general interest, or special to the district in which they are carried on, these institutions are specially interested in the distribution of seeds imported from Europe, in

the study of diseases in vegetables, of objectionable insects, and of the best means to prevent damages of all kind to plants, &c.
They have also a large number of experimental stations in Germany-80. The allocations to German stations are far behind the allocations received by the American stations; those allocations are drawn from the same sources, the greater part being paid by the national government.
In France there are 71 experimental stations with a budget still less than the one
alloted to the German stations.
If the total allocations given to experimental stations in these three countries are divided by the number of stations in each country, we have, in round figures, the following result:
United States	$23,000
Germany	 8,000
France	 3,000
The same policy prevails in all agricultural countries. Here is a statement that I have compiled concerning several agricultural countries:
Country.	Area Sq. m.	Number of Farms.Germany	.. 208,830	80France.	.. 203,687	7.1Austria-Hungary ..	.. 261,030	61U nited States .. ..	.. 2,970.000	GOSweden	, .. 172,876	26Italy	.. 110,659	22Belgium	.. 11,373	15Japan	.. 174,000	15Norway	. .. 124,100	12
The purpose of those stations is the same everywhere:
1.	The cultivation of agricultural plants, not only those already grown in the district, but also those that could be grown, having regard to the nature of the soil and the
climatic conditions:
2.	Experiments to bring into cultivation plants fit for fodder, selected from the local vegetation or imported from countries where climate conditions are smilar;
3.	Experiments to test the effect of manures in different soils; _
4.	Experiments in irrigation of plants;
5.	Experiments and investigations in stock raising, in view of obtaining the best results for local agriculture;
6.	Geological and biological studies of the region as regard the climate, the soil, &c., in order to fulfil the purpose of the station.
Mr. Speaker, the data I have just quoted shows that a great deal is yet to be done in Canada if we want to be in a position to compete successfully with other countries in the field of agricultural progress.
With a territory of 3,600,000 square miles, yet the number of our experimental stations is limited to seven (7).
The province of Quebec, with a land territory of 341,750 square miles, an area


Ernest Lapointe: larger than that of Germany, of France and all the other countries I have mentioned, with the exception of the United States, has not one single experimental station for all that territory, notwitstanding that no country has a greater variety of climate and soil.
I am quite ready to admit that our experimental farms are of great service to the country but they are not in sufficient number to effectively represent the varied conditions in all the important parts of Canada.
In his report on Experimental Farms for 1896, Mr. Wm. Saunders, the superintendent, says, page 5:
When in October, 1886, the first step was taken towards the organization of experimental farms in Canada by the appointment of the director, the first undertaken was a careful study of the climatic and other conditions which influence agriculture in different parts of the country; and to find out where the several farms which it was proposed to establish could be placed so as to confer the greatest benefit on the farmers, the intention was that the sites chosen for these institutions should be located as to cover the more important climatic conditions prevailing in this country, and at the same time minister to the needs of the existing agricultural population.
In his report for 1895, Mr. Saunders says, page 6:
As the experimental farms are too few and too widely separated to fully represent all the different climates and other conditions affecting agriculture throughout the Dominion, the endeavour has been made to enlist the cooperation of farmers everywhere in the useful work of testing varieties by distributing among them, for this purpose, samples of such products as have proved most valuable at the experimental farms.
So, the officers of the Department of Agriculture expressly admit that the experiment-all farms already established cannot be of great service to the agricultural class in certain distant parts of the country where the climate is quite different.
In a pamphlet published by the Department of Agriculture, in 1905, for the Liege Exhibition, and entitled 'Le Canada, son histoire, ses productions et ses ressources naturelles,' and prepared under the direction of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, I see:
Canada is blessed with a marvellous variety of climate. Its most southern part is as near to the equator as Rome, while its most northern part is quite near the Arctic Circle. Between the Atlantic and Pacific coasts lie about 3,000 miles of land and inland waters. Therefore, it is quite evident that Canada jests under as large a zone of atmospherio conditions as the whole of Europe.
At page 85 of the same pamphlet publish ed under the direction of the hon. minister,

we can see the following statement relating to the province of Quebec:
The climate differs considerably between the different parts of the province.
I can ask for no better authority to estab lish that the Ottawa Experimental Farm, which is supposed to provide to the agricultural needs of the two great provinces, Ontario and Quebec, does not represent the climatic conditions of a large portion of the latter province.
When the Experimental Farm was established in Ottawa for the special advantage of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, four other farms were established in order to promote agricultural interests in the other provinces.
One of them at Nappan, Nova Scotia, near the boundary line between that province and New Brunswick, was intended to minister to the wants of the farming community in the three maritime provinces. Another farm was established at Brandon, Manitoba; a third one at Indian Head, Saskatchewan, and the fourth at Agassiz, in British Columbia.
I may be allowed to point out that the two farms at Brandon and Indian Head are only 182 miles apart by rail, and that the reasons given to justify the establishment of two farms so near to each other were the differences in climate and soil.
On page 10 of his report for the year 1888 Mr. Saunders makes the following statement about these two farms:
Some differences of climate, soil and situation are abundantly sufficient to warrant the establishment of the two farms, and with experimental operations in agriculture, horticulture and forestry carried on at each, a vast amount of useful and practical information will soon be gained which will be of great value to farmers in every part of that country and meet in large measure the varying conditions to which they are individually subjected.
Is it not surprising, Mr. Speaker, that the same considerations did not lead to the establishment of an experimental farm in the eastern part of the province of Quebec where the weather conditions are so utterly different from those prevailing in Ottawa, especially if it is considered that the farmers of that district must cover from three hundred to six hundred miles to reach the central farm.
In 1906 two new farms were established by this government-both in the province of Alberta. These two stations are 261 miles apart, following the railway line.
The hon. Minister of Agriculture, answering a question which I had put to him, stated on February 10 last that a new farm was being established at Rosthern in the province of Saskatchewan.
Now, I sincerely commend the establishment of these new farms in a district which is progressing rapidly and where new settlers will have to be assisted and instructed so as to make a successful start, but I think it my duty, Mr. Speaker, as the representative of a farming constituency in the district of Quebec to ask of the government our share of the funds set apart for the promotion and expansion of agriculture.
The farmers of the St. Lawrence valley have been the first tillers of the soil in this country; they have had a share in the progress of every other district, and to-day the government should put them in a position to successfully compete with their fellow countrymen in the other provinces.
Mr. Speaker, the climate of this eastern section of our province is utterly different from the cliamte of Ottawa and the western part of Quebec. All you have to do tp satisfy yourself about it is to refer to the reports of the different meteorological stations.
The climate of our district is affected by the elevation of the ground, its topographical situation, the vicinity of large areas of water and of forests, the inequality of the soil and the direction of the prevailing winds.
The winter season lasts much longer in the Quebec district than in the other regions; our farms are still covered with snow when the lands in Ontario and in the Montreal district are in full growth.
The summer season is much cooler in our district than it is in Ottawa. Let me inquire about it from the numerous citizens of the capital, who, in June, leave their own town in order to get the benefit of the change of temperature they can enjoy on the banks of the St. Lawrence.
On account of the length of the winter season, the period of vegetation is much shorter than in Ottawa. The following operations must be promptly attended to, and our farmers can devote but very litle time to the improvement of their lands which a century or two of farming has exhausted and whose productivity is probably not what it ought to be.
Another disadvantage arising from the protracted winter season, is the necessity of keeping our stock in the stables during seven months or seven months and a half, and consequently of growing large quantities of fodder.
During the winter of 1907, a number of farmers in the county of Kamouraska, had to undersell many heads of farm cattle, on account of the dearth of fodder which they could not buy at a reasonable price. Fodder plants suitable to our district and hardy, should be selected and put to a trial, and thus invaluable advantages would be gained.
Formerly, the farmers in the rural counties east of the city of Quebec, harvested enough wheat for the local consummation and for the export trade. Lately, one of

them told me that a bushel of seed often yielded a crop of twenty-five bushels. At present, the ordinary yield does not exceed between five and eight bushels. Result ; our farmers cannot compete with the western farmers and they have in a great measure ceased to grow wheat.
The advising of the farmer in the selection of the most profitable and germinative seeds, the practical teaching of a system of rotation, the suggesting of the means of improving land which has been depleted, such is the purpose to be fulfilled by the establishment of an experimental station in the district of Quebec.
How many farmers in the district of Quebec have thus lost large sums of money because they undertook to grow fruit trees that had been sold to them by American agents, or came from the province of Quebec, the varieties supplied by those agents not being hardy enough to withstand our climate. The fruit trees of northern Europe seem best suited to our local conditions, but practical tests ionly, such as might be carried on at an experimental farm would have sufficient authority to induce our farmers to devote themselves to this important branch of agricultural pursuits.
Mr. Speaker, the district for which I claim an experimental station contains a large number of farmers and covers a wide aiea.
Such a station would be greatly beneficial to the following counties : Gaspe, Bonaven-ture, Rimouski, T6miscouata, Kamouraska, L'Islet, Montmagny, Bellechasse, Levis, Dorchester, Beauce, Lotbiniere, Megantic, Athabaska, Quebec, Portneuf, Champlain, Montmorency, Charlevoix, Chicoutimi and Saguenay.
According to the census of 1901, the counties I have just mentioned, had a population of 534,366 inhabitants. The area occupied was 6,516,428 acres, and the number of settlers upon farms, 66,785.
At that time, the following statistics were collected in the different provinces :_____
Provinces.	Settlers upon Farms.	Acres Occupied.	Popula- tion.British Columbia.. Manitoba	6,739 32,495	1,497,419 8,843,347	178,657 255,211New Brunswick.... Nova Scotia	37,583 56,033	4,443,400 5,080,901	331,120 459,574Prince Edward	14,014 224,127 159,599 23,098	1,194,508 21,349,524 14,444,175 6,569,064	103,259 2,182,947 1,648,898 158,940
Quebec	 N. W. Territories..			
	544,688	63,422,338


Ernest Lapointe: Those statistics show the immense importance of the agricultural lands of the Quebec district so far as area and population are concerned.
The establishment of an experimental station in our district has been asked for for many years past. Recently this question has been often discussed before the public and this important improvement is sought for by the exponents of public opinion.
Last year tne board of trade of the city of Quebec unanimously passed a resolution asking the government to render that measure of justice to the farming class. It would be useless to quote that resolution which is no doubt in the hands of the hon. Minister of Agriculture. However, I must say that I do not approve that paragraph of the resolution which states that the proposed experimental station should be established in the vicinity of the city of Quebec.
The sums voted for the establishment and maintenance of experimental stations are purely agricultural appropriations to be expended in the interests of the whole farming community and not for the sake of a particular section of the country.
This question is of such a vital importance that it must not be considered as local and the experimental station of the Quebec district should be established at the most central point where the climate and the soil are fair samples of the conditions generally prevailing in the district.
Mr. Speaker, I leave it to the House to pass judgment upon my resolution. I ask for no favour, but I claim justice for our province and our district. I sincerely hope that this debate will not be merely acca-demic and that we shall soon have the occasion of witnessing its happy results.


Mr. MARTIN BURRELL (Yale-Cariboo).: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I have not been able to follow the argument of the hon. gentleman who has preceded me in the French language. I have no doubt that there are very cogent reasons why the system of experimental stations should be extended and if such extension is justified by facts in the province of Quebec, the proposal will have my hearty co-operation and support. It is a matter of congratulation that a resolution of this kind is not controversial. There are some who think that nowadays governments are too paternal, that they interfere too much with the liberties of the subject, and undertake to do things for the subject which he would be better able to do for himself. I think, however, that there are very few people at this time of day who will deny that within the sphere of governmental operations there rightly comes assistance of a scientific character to the great basic industry of agriculture, the immense importance of which to this country need hardly be suggested. One of the greatest problems facing

all governments and all people at the present time is the conservation of great natural resources. I think I am not far astray when I add that an equally great problem is the adoption of methods in connection with agriculture that will assist the agriculturist is making more in the way of production out of a given area than he does at the present time; because, after all, the day is not very far distant when, in spite of our immense areas of land in in this country, speaking at all events in a general way, it will be of vital importance to us that we should be able to sustain a much larger population on a given area than we do at the present time. This is a problem which has to be faced by other countries, it is true, of less extent than ' ours and with older civilization. We have to follow in the footsteps of countries like Belgium and Denmark which, with much smaller areas support much larger populations by the practice of intensive farming, a practice which has been very largely assisted by the governments of those countries. We have had various instances of the effect on the economic problems of the world of either a greater or a lesser production in the work of agriculture. I need only instance how a couple of years ago the great shortage in the gram product of the west practically meant a panic in the financial world of Canada, and we know with what palpitations of heart and what intense anxiety the other great industries which are associated with this country's development awaited the announcement of the condition of the coming crop. I do not think I need say any more in showing how agriculture, of all industries, deserves the most sympathetic consideration of a government, especially on the scientific side, because it is a practical impossibility for the average agriculturist or horticulturist to carry on experiments of a scientific kind. To do so would absorb all his time and energy, and he has not sufficient scientific training. There is great justification, therefore for the government taking proper steps along those lines, in the fact that the scientific results achieved by trained men mean increase not merely a hundred fold but a thousand fold the products of our country. I would point to the great benefits that have been derived from the establishment of agricultural experimental stations in the United States. It is hardly necessary for me to show to those who are at all familiar with the subject that the establishment of the great experimental stations at Cornell and in a great many other parts of the United States, with the assistance of the federal government, have been productive of improved methods in agriculture and horticulture that mean untold millions to the economic advantage of that country. The establishment of experimental farms, either
agricultural or horticultural, to my mind lies more within the sphere of federal than provincial jurisdiction. It is true, in some respects the provinces may well take hold of this what one might call educational work. No one will deny, for instance, the admirable character of the work done in this country in the establishment of the farmers' institutes in Ontario and similar institutions in other provinces. We have a great many small experimental stations throughout the province of Ontario. I know something of this matter, having had an intimate connection with one of these stations some years ago. While the province can do something, there are obvious limitations to its operations in some cases. I am glad to pay a tribute to the excellent work carried on by the central experimental station in Ottawa, and to express my belief that that work, in the various departments -agricultural, horticultural, chemical, etc., -is yielding results of inestimable value to the whole country. I want now to speak more particular of a sister industry-that of horticultural or fruit growing. That industry is intimately connected with agriculture; but though carried on upon a smaller scale in Canada, it is in some respects of more importance to the country. In the first place being a more intensive form of agriculture, it will sustain on a given area an immensely larger population than ordinary agriculture. I think I am fairly safe in saying that on ten acres of orchard thoroughly cared for we can have a) production as far as freight goes, equal to that produced by the same effort from 100 acres of grain. I may add that it leads to an immensely larger employment of labour. Those of us who have had any experience with horticultural work, know that acre for acre we employ probably five or six times the amount of labour that is required in ordinary agricultural operations. Therefore in the way of building up a largely increased population in this country horticulture deserves the particular regard of the governmental authorities.
Then I might also add that this not only : leads to the establishment of a lot of important subsidiary industries, but it also proves, probably, one of the best advertisements to the outside world of the climate and fertility of the soil of Canada that we could possibly have. Let me point out the enormous good that has been done by governmental experimental stations both here and in other countries, and I refer especially now to Canada, in the way of the immense saving effected by the giving out to the country of the proper method of fighting various pests which knock so large a percentage off the products of horticulture and agriculture. Let me give you one instance of the case of a most destructive pest:	That is, the codlin moth which attacks the apple. It will be a surprise to

some turn, gentlemen who do not know to what extent that one insect will shorten the financial proceeds of one branch of horticultural work. I speak from memory, but I think fairly accurately of what took place in the state of Illinois alone, a large apple growing state, where, upon statistics being collected some years ago, it was found that the ravages of this one insect in the state had lost two million dollars to those engaged in the industry of apple growing. If that is a fair sample of what one insect will do, when we extend the illustration to the various fungus diseases we can at once see that there is an enormous economic loss to this country, affecting not only agriculture and horticulture, but every line of industry in the country, because it is a well known fact that to a greater or less degree they depend upon agriculture and horticulture, and the loss runs up to untold millions. Here again, I think, we have a strong argument for governmental help and assistance. I might refer more particularly to my own province because I know there are hon. gentlemen here who are able to speak with reference to the province of Quebec and to point out its special needs. I wish to direct the attention of the House more particularly to the needs of tire particular province from which I come, and to try to present to the government. and the minister who represents that particular department the reasons why I think the federal government should take a somewhat larger view of the situation ' with regard to experimental stations. I am not going to deal with the statistics of Canada at large, although I might point out that horticulture now has arrived at the stage where it may be properly described as a national industry. Although in British Columbia we have not an industry which can bear comparison with that of the older provinces such as Quebec, Ontario and Nova Scotia, we are making rapid progress, a fact which will be appreciated by the House when I state that it was actually within my own lifetime that the first fruit tree was planted on British territory west of the Rocky mountains. Because of the difficult character of the country, due to geographical and other reasons, development and settlement went on slowly, and we have had to solve the great problems of clearing land and overcome other obstacles. This development went on slowly, until in the year 1900 we had an acreage in fruit of
7.000	acres. It was about the year 1900 or 1901 that we began to understand the immense possibilities in commercial horticulture that really lie within the limits of our great province owing to its climate and soil. These possibilities have been grasped by a large number of people and the development has been so marked within the last eight years that we have now over
75.000	acres in orchard. We apprehend that Mr. BURRELL.
we have about one million acres adaptable for the production of high-class fruit of all kinds in what we call southern British Columbia, and, speaking very broadly, a large portion of this area, certainly several thousand acres, is situated in what we call the semi-arid belt. It includes the districts of the Okanagan valley, the Thompson river, the Kettle river, Nicola valley and other portions of the country where the mighty Fraser river receives the waters of the Thompson at Lytton. At the present time the experimental station which the government has now under its charge in British Columbia and which it established some years ago, is of no practical use for all these great interior plateaus, which are not only being developed quickly, but which will present tremendous value to the country within the next ten years. I am not now discussing the point so much as to whether the government, through its officers, was well advised or ill-advised in picking upon that particular place to establish an experimental station. Of course, we know that- the experimental work carried on at this station is good for very many reasons, one being for the testing and propagation of varieties, and another the determining of the proper means of fighting various diseases, in which lines we must admit that the station at Agassiz can do fairly good work. But one of the chief things for which the experimental station should be of value to the great fruit-growing district of British Columbia is not only the determination of the proper way of fighting fungus diseases, but also of attacking the great problem of irrigation. The station at Agassiz is situated in a valley which is very humid in character and which is almost at sea level; so nearly, at all events, that we might call it at sea level. It is in a humid country in which there is an excess of rainfall. and the consequence is that the conditions presented by the work of the experimental station at Agassiz have absolutely no applicability to the problems which will be presented for solution in these hundreds of thousands of acres which are going to constitute the great district for commercial horticulture in British Columbia. For instance, a very large proportion of the acreage under orchard is situated at an altitude from 1,000 to 2,500 feet above sea level. I may say once more that as far as the Agassiz station goes it is of little value to us in the interior country. I do not want to go into too many details, but I would like to give a concrete illustration of how this great industry of horticulture has developed in our province.
I will take the case of the Okanagan valley. It was only in the year 1872 that the first fruit trees were planted in the Okanagan valley. These trees were brought in by the Mission fathers, who established a mis sion on the east side of Okanagan lake and

who brought the trees in under incredible hardships over the difficult and dangerous mountain trails from the coast. There are a few of these trees alive at the present time. Nothing was done in a large or commercial way until, by the foresight or enterprise of a former Governor General of this country, Lord Aberdeen, a large tract of land was purchased in the centre of that great Okanagan valley and horticulture was gone into on a somewhat large scale. The efforts of Lord Aberdeen in that direction showed what could be done, but up to the year 1893 or 1894 practically nothing was done in the Okanagan valley, in which today we have 18,000 acres in orchard, nearly 5,000 acres of which are peaches, and the whole of which is practically under the vital necessity of irrigation because of an insufficient rainfall. I would like to give some idea to this House of the value of irrigation in connection with agriculture and horticulture. I do not suppose that many of those who are not connected with this industry realize how intensely important irrigation is to successful horticulture or agriculture.
The science of irrigation is practised in every part of the world, and it has been a feature of agriculture for thousands of years. There are the remains of great irrigation works in Egypt and in parts of Asia which are at least 2,000 or 3,000 years old. At present, the science is carried on to an extent known to few people. For instance, in India millions of acres are under irrigation by means of canals, and other millions of acres by systems of pumping from wells or reservoirs. This means not only tremendously increased production but also an immense saving of life. In Italy, we find that in practically the whole southern part of the country, the work of agriculture is carried on with the assistance of irrigation. In Egypt and China the same thing is true. In the United States there are 4,000,000 acres under irrigation which means that practically all this land has been reclaimed from the desert and is now producing food. Careful computation shows that there is something like 40,000,000 acres in the world under irrigation, which, but for irrigation, would be partially or wholly unproductive.
The point I wish to press upon the Minister of Agriculture is that there is a need which, perhaps, the government, up to the present time, have hardly realized, for an experimental station in what is called the semi-arid belt of British Columbia. Because, it is impossible for us, the individual operators, to gain what the true value of water is, how to use it, how to distribute it and so on. This means that there must be an immense quantity of water now going to waste which, if economically used, would mean the reclamation of many
thousands of acres. If we had proper scientific experiments to inform us how much water to use and how to use it, it would mean an immense addition to the quantity of land, now sterile, that could be brought under cultivation. While the governments of the United States and the governments of other countries also have been going into this question in a thorough way to find out what the value of water is in connection with agriculture and horticulture our government has done practically nothing. In regard to the value of water, the customary standard of measurement throughout the world is becoming the cubic foot per second, and what is called the duty of water, is the area over which this quantity can be distributed with the best results. In Alberta, where the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have carried on the largest irrigation -works in Canada, if not in America, it has been estimated that, for the culture of wheat and grass, one cubic foot per second is enough for 100 acres. I think they are now fixing that duty at 150 acres. In other parts of the world, the duty of water varies according to conditions. In California, where they have done a great deal of this work, and where the land, without irrigation, is absolutely sterile, being in the arid belt, and where they realize every drop of water, they have extended the duty of water to 250 acres. Taking the average of 100 eases of the whole world, it will be found that one cubic foot of water per second has a duty of 117 acres, exclusive of the culture of rice, where much more water is required.


Mr. BRODER.: The quantity of water required will depend upon the evaporation.


Martin Burrell: These figures apply mostly to countries in which the evaporation is verv rapid. Now, I do not wish to take up the time of the House,, but I would like to say that this whole question of the application of water for the reclamation of great tracts of otherwise sterile lands in the arid or semi-arid districts is an immensely difficult question. Our present imperfect methods cause needless waste of water. We are groping in the dark as to what we should do for the development of our resources. Not only that, but a shortage of water in a very dry country means heart-burnings and quar-rellings; it means the division of communities into hostile camps; it means the neglect of proper methods to reclaim even some of the areas that might otherwise be reclaimed. I would strongly urge upon the Minister of Agriculture to take into consideration these facts and to realize that in British Columbia we have an industry of great value to the country as a whole and an immense acreage that can be reclaimed and made to afford room for population

and greatly increase the wealth of Canada. I trust the minister will see his way, at an early day, to look into this matter, not to put it by year after year, but to take it up in a whole-hearted way and establish an experimental station somewhere in the arid or semi-arid districts of British Columbia, where it can render benefit to the whole province.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton).: I appreciate very much the efforts of the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe) in bringing this subject before the House at this time. It is a subject of great importance, not only to Quebec but to every province of the Dominion. For years, we have been urging the necessity of establishing experimental stations throughout the Dominion, not merely stations for the development of the grain-growing industry, but in connection with the fruit industry, and I hope the efforts put forth by hon. members from Quebec and others will have definite results with the Minister of Agriculture. For some years past, we have been urging upon the minister the need of establishing an experimental tobacco station in the western district of Ontario. I do not need to remind the Minister of Agriculture of the importance of establishing such a station, of the extent of the industry or of the splendid work that such a station could accomplish. I would urge upon him the necessity of establishing another experimental station in the western peninsula of Ontario. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, in that peninsula we have a very mild climate, much milder, for instance, than that of Ottawa, at which the Dominion Central Experimental Farm is situated, or even of Guelph where the Ontario Experimental Farm is established. A large portion of that western peninsula is gradually being developed for the growing of different kinds of fruit. I have for some time been urging on the minister the necessity of investigating that western district with reference to this important question, because we cannot expect that the experiments that are carried on here at Ottawa, or at the other experimental farms in Ontario, can accomplish what we would like to see done in that district. The minister has been urged to afford help to establish a farm in the Niagara district. I know he is fully alive to the importance of such a step, and while the Ontario government are making wonderful strides in the establishment of experimental farms, and in giving valuable information to the farmers, yet I cannot help feeling, as the hon. member for Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Burrell) has so well said, that it is nothing but right that the federal parliament should take a deeper interest in the establishment of these experimental farms, not only in the province of Quebec, but throughout Canada. I am glad indeed to see that the mem-


Martin Burrell: bers from Quebec are taking up this question in earnest. I am satisfied that experimental farms are needed in the west also. Take for instance, the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, no one can estimate the amount of good that could be accomplished by farms of this kind in that western country. I well remember reading two or three years ago, in the report of the Minister of Agriculture, what was said with regard to the extra amount of grain that could be grown on farms if we were only able to add one bushel to the yield of each acre of land sown; it would bring into the pockets of the Canadian farmers over $12,000,000 a year. The advantage therefore of these farms is evident, and I am satis-fled that the question having been brought up from year to year, and now that both sides of the House are united upon it, the minister will give it a great deal more attention than he has done in the past.


Mr. E. PAQUETTE (L'Islet).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I beg to express my thankfulness to my friendly neighbour, the member for Karnouraska (Mr. Lapointe). He has ably pointed out the usefulness as well as the need of the establishment of an experimental farm in the eastern part of Quebec. Therefore, I have so much more ready willingness in associating myself to his labours and in seconding his motion.
My friend has gone over all of the agricultural field. Statistics demonstrate that experimental stations have been affording the highest and most valuable services to the farming community in Europe, in the United States and in our own country. All civilized countries put themselves to heavy pecuniary sacrifices towards the erection, improvement and perfection of experimental farms. In our work of nation building, it lies with us to go into all of those expenses which are calculated to be indispensable to insure eminence and prestige for the farming class.
Experim|ental farms along with our several farming institutes have largely contributed to the progress of agriculture, the very foundation of our national wealth and prosperity. The exports of our farm products amounted to $13,000,000 in 1891. In 1901 they had reached the figure of $24,000,000. The experimental farm is the farmer's true school. It is consequently of high moment to secure and place a good model under his keen observation. For instance, the nursery at Aulnaies village, for many years under the management of Mr. Dupuis, has done a great deal for the advancement of horticulture in the county of L'Islet. We are conscious of the happy influence exercised by the St. Hyacinthe school over the dairy industry. The establishment of an experimental farm in the eastern section of the province would perforce bring about some needful reforms

requisite for progressive scientific farming. Our farmers might be shown around it, they could study it, take an interest in the manifold experiments carried on, and they could avail themselves of them. This would mean a standing lecture and wonderfully satisfying results could thus he derived.
Our soil and climate differ from those of the Ottawa district. We want an experimental farm to test the different qualities of the soil. The building of the Grand Trunk Pacific or Transcontinental opens up new sections to both settlement and farming. The analysis of the soil of that country is of the utmost importance. This great work will be apt to be perhaps neglected if we remain too far away from our experimental farms.
This experimental farm might be made an experimental station for agricultural purposes. Our farmers are too far away from the Ottawa farm to derive the full benefit of it. I am aware of the stringency of our finances, but this work is urgently needed by our farmers and we must endeavour to find the money to further the progress of agriculture. The hon. Minister of Agriculture knows the needs of our district. He should be satisfied that the establishment of an experimental station for agricultural purposes in the eastern part of the province of Quebec would serve the interest of a territory the possibilities and the development of which are worthy the attention of this parliament and government. This experimental farm might be made an experimental station for agricultural purposes, might also help the cattle raising industry, and in short, it might further the progress of agriculture.


Mr. O. E. TALBOT (Bellechasse).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I could hardly allow this opportunity to pass without congratulating and at the same time without thanking the hon. member for Kamouraslca for the vary interesting remarks which he has just made in moving his resolution. And I think I state in this not only the sentiments of the farmers of the great county which I represent, and which is part of the district whose welfare my hon. friend has so much at heart, but also of the farmers of the whole province of Quebec. I will take the same opportunity to thank the Minister of Agriculture who, _ on all occasion, has shown us so much kindness, to us members of the province of Quebec and to our electors, every time we applied directly to his department or to the experimental farm, he always gave satisfaction to every one who has had to deal with him. I think this is a splendid opportunity to ask him to extend further the field of his operations in so far as practical farming is concerned.
Every one will admit that the farmers in that part of the province, which I belong have made wonderful progress in the last fifteen or twenty years, especially in dairying. But in certain respects, I have to own with regret, we are still deficient. It is true that our farmers have to put up nowadays with the impoverishment of the soil, due mostly to the neglect of our forefathers. The province of Quebec has a magnificent soil under a very favourable climate, but it has lost somewhat of its fertility as far as production is concerned. If there be any thing practical for the whole country, it is surely agriculture. I recognize that the lectures organized by the Minister of Agriculture throughout the country have had very good results, but more so theoretically than practically. It is a recognized fact to-day, not only in the province of Quebec, but, I dare say, in the world at large, that the farmer has a great calling, and that he is the very foundation of the wealth and progress of every country. These lectures have educated him to the importance of his calling, and in this respect the work performed in Ottawa is most satisfactory. But the experiments conducted at the model farm here do not all apply to the province of Quebec owing to the different climatic conditions. Much good will derive from the establishment of an experimental farm in our province, for instance in the way of drainage. Good drainage generally stimulates the natural action of the soil, so that crops may be at least a fortnight earlier than would otherwise be. We are also behind in the selection of seed grain. Our soil does not produce as much as it could. Certain quantities of seed grain are sown but do not bring proportionately as much as in other provinces. An experimental farm in the province of Quebec would result in the practical demonstration of good drainage.
The farmers of the province of Quebec have also to be stirred up to the advantages of improving their stock. Much has been done already, and the government of the province ,of Quebec has done their share, but in this also we are somewhat deficient. I acknowledge that much improvement ha3 been accomplished in that direction in such counties as Kamouraska, L'Islet, Bellechasse and others. For instance in my own county, where a man had from six to eight cows ten or twelve years ago, he has to-day between thirty and forty. But the breed is lacking. A branch of the Ottawa farm would surely be of immense advantage in this respect in that part of the country. Farmers as a rule love to hear lectures. They cherish what is told them, but_ there is nothing so useful as things practical, and I believe that the establishment of an experimental farm would alone give the best practical results.
As it is to-day, the government of the province of Quebec spend certain sums of

money as encouragement to a number of agricultural schools. I had occasion several years ago to be one of the commissioners appointed to investigate these schools, and out of the four, we condemned two. I hold that to-day the four or five thousand dollars which the government grant to the school at St. Anne de la Pocatifere is money absolutely thrown away. If this money was pooled with what amount this government would be willing to give, I think these four or five thousand dollars would bring many times the results which are derived from them to-day. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will accept in a friendly manner the suggestion contained in the resolution, and will give this very important question all the consideration it deserves.


Mr. MAGRATH (Medicine Hat).: Mr. Speaker, I deeply regret not to have understood the speeches made by the hon. gentlemen who preceded me upon the important question of agricultural interests. I wish to say a few words in support of this resolution, because I know that a new country cannot be successfully settled without the aid of experimental work. Experimental work has contributed greatly towards the successful settlement of northwestern Canada. The Indian Head farm has been in operation for many years and it has been of great benefit. At one period the territory immediately surrounding Indian Head was not being settled, and I believe that the great change that has taken place in that section of the country is largelv due to the experimental work conducted by the Minister of Agriculture. I feel that it is impossible to say too much in support of the work being done by these experimental farms. I am sorry we have not an experimental farm in the northern portion of Quebec, along the line of the National Transcontinental Railway. In a few years our prairie country will be largely settled and we will then have to locate people in the wooded areas. I see no reason why we should not direct attention to the country say 25 or 50 miles north of this city. That work, however, can never be taken up successfully until some experimental work is done further north in that province. I take pleasure in supporting this resolution and I sincerely trust that the government will see its way clear to give the province of Quebec at least one experimental farm and possibly two, because I believe we cannot have too many of them in the various sections of this large county


Mr. A. S. GOODEVE (Kootenay).: I am glad to say a few words in support of this resolution. In the Kootenays we have felt greatly the want of an experimental farm. As you are aware, we are situated in the mountains under peculiar conditions, and we are anxious to know the best kinds of


Onésiphore Ernest Talbot: fruit to grow and the highest altitude at which fruit can be successfully matured. This question has been taken up by various boards of trade in that district and at a recent meeting of the Associated Boards of Trade, at which thirteen hoards were present, a formal resolution was adopted in regard to this very question of having more experimental farms in that western country. I well remember that when cheese and butter factories were first started in Ontario the successful marketing of the product presented great difficulties to the farmers and others interested. The government then came to the rescue, and owing to the work done by the Agricultural Department a large and profitable industry has been built up in the province of Ontario and other portions of Canada. That is one phase of the question that appeals to us as fruit men. We have already learned by experience that almost any kind of fruit will grow in the valleys surrounding the rivers and lakes of British Columbia. We have in my own particular district several large valleys, particularly the Windermere, Pend-Oreille, Kootenay and Arrow Lake valleys. These have been largely advertised, many settlers are coming in,/ and the land is being taken up for agricultural purposes. Going through that district last fall I found that in many instances a good deal of the smaller fruit had been allowed to go to waste. This was partly due to the fact that some of the varieties cultivated there were not suitable for marketing, they were of too soft a nature. Then too, in many districts where the fruit was perfectly suitable for the market, there was not a sufficient quantity to enable the growers to get rates and accommodation to send it to their markets.
I know that experimental farms along the line suggested by previous speakers would be of great advantage to us in that portion of the country. The officials of such farms would be able to tell the ranchers not only the best fruit for the particular altitude in which they were situated but also the best fruit for marketing. As has been said by the hon. member for Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Burrell) it was not until Lord Aberdeen, in the Okanagan valley, 'established apple growing on a large scale that we were able to market successfully. That is one difficulty. A rancher in one valley will grow one kind of apple, cherry, pear, peach or small fruit, and his immediate neighbour will grow another variety coming in a few weeks earlier or a few weeks later, with the result that neither can market his fruit in the best condition or in' the quantities necessary to obtain the best prices. In that way there is no doubt that an experimental farm would do a vast amount of good and would hasten the time when the horticulturists of that district will be able to add materially to the wealth of Canada. I heartily support the resolution so far as it

applies to the further establishment of experimental farms in the various provinces. No doubt the arguments advanced by the hon. gentlemen from Quebec have been such as would impress the minister and the government, and I think that the arguments we can advance and have advanced in regard to the western provinces will also be of weight. I trust that the Minister of Agriculture will take this question, as he has taken other questions, into his serious consideration, and that he will grant such assistance in this matter as will hasten the time when we will have a large amount of fruit in the various provinces of this Dominion.


Mr. W. S. LOGGIE (Northumberland, N.B.).: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I was unable to follow the remarks of the hon. gentleman who moved this resolution. I was, however, able to sufficiently follow the remarks of the hon. member for Dorchester to know that he complimented the hon. gentleman from Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe) upon the manner in which he presented the resolution. I am very glad that I am able to heartily support the sentiments set out in the resolution. From the remarks made by the hon. gentlemen who have spoken, there is no question in the mind of any gentleman present as to the great benefit which has accrued to the agricultural interests of this Dominion from the operation of experimental farms. This idea is set out in the resolution and it is also set forth that if we had more of these farms they would still more benefit the agricultural interests of Canada. The reasons advanced in the resolution for asking for the establishment of a new farm in the eastern portion of Quebec are that the conditions of soil and climate are different from those at the experimental farms now in operation. We can easily realize that this is so. I understand that we have but two experimental farms under the administration of the Dominion in eastern Canada, one in Ontario and one in Nova Scotia. I wish to say on behalf of my own province that there are differences in the seasons, in the soil and in the climate between Nova Scotia and the northern portion of New Brunswick. It seems to me that it would be in the interest of agriculture in the province of New Brunswick that an experimental station should be established in that province, either in the northeast section or the north-west section. I may say for my own county that agricultural interests have advanced very materially during recent years; but in some departments, especially in dairying, we are still very far behind, and if we had an experimental station within reasonable distance, and at a point where the climate and soil are different from what they are at Nappan in Nova Scotia, I am sure it would add materially to the agricultural
interests of New Brunswick, in which all of us feel a deep interest.


Mr. A. C. BOYCE (West Algoma).: Mr. Speaker, I have very much pleasure indeed in joining my congratulations with those of other hon. gentlemen to the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe), who has introduced this very excellent resolution, a resolution in the sentiment of which I am sure hon. members on both sides of this House will join. What undoubtedly is wanted in the agricultural sections of this country are experimental farms; and the value of these experimental farms is undoubtedly proportionate to the manner in which they are managed. I do not rise for the purpose of indicating generally the localities where one of these farms should be established; but I do rise, as a member coming from that portion of Ontario known as New Ontario, for the purpose of suggesting to the hon. Minister of Agriculture, that that portion of Ontario needs a little more of his fostering care than it has received in the past. If the hon. minister would direct his attention to that very rich portion of Ontario, having regard to the maintenance there of one of these experimental farms, I fancy that he would do a great deal of good. Such an institution would be a means of instruction to farmers there who are labouring under rather rigorous climatic conditions and other disadvantages which are not met with in other portions of the province of Ontario. It is just to that class of territory, which is somewhat different in its nature and climatic conditions from the rest of the Dominion of Canada, that the hon. gentleman refers in the first part of this resolution. The northern parts of the province of Ontario are known to be agriculturally rich; but what they are capable of producing under more favourable conditions, which can only be ascertained by scientific investigations and by continued research and experiment, has never yet been demonstrated. I therefore thought this would be a favourable opportunity to suggest to the hon. minister that he should consider that portion of Ontario, with the idea of establishing in the most suitable part of it, the part where it would give the greatest good to the greatest number, an experimental farm, so that the people engaged in agricui ture in that country might have the advantage of instruction with regard to what the land is capable of producing, what fruits can be grown there and to what extent, and other questions affecting the agricultural industry. That experimental farms are of the greatest possible utility especially in a new country is too much of a truism to admit of any question, and I think the establishment of one or more in these northern districts would be of the greatest uti-

lity. _ We have a splendid experimental farm in Ottawa, which is of great benefit to the more thickly settled portions of Ontario and Quebec; but the conditions in New Ontario are so different in many respects to what they are here, that the establishment of an experimental farm there would undoubtedly stimulate agriculture and tend to the increased settlement of the country. I earnestly commend this matter to my hon. friend's consideration, and trust that he will give effect to the suggestion I make.


Mr. J. P TURCOTTE (Quebec).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker. This debate brought by the resolution of the hon. member for Kamouraska, is one of the most interesting that came before the House. Not only is the resolution asking the government to safeguard the interests of the agricultural classes of our country, but it seems to me that it will have the further result of creating provinces, every one of them endeavouring in the future more than ever to take lead in the development and progress of agriculture.
If I am not mistaken, we must to-day be well informed as to what goes on concerning the agricultural questions in the old and new provinces. The art of agriculture is relatively easy in the new provinces ; the land is virgin and consequently mere productive ; the farmers settling on these farms bring with them knowledge acquired elsewhere, new ideas, and they work in a manner which is entirely unknown in our old provinces. So that if it is necessary for these new provinces to receive help from the government to be more prosperous, I will say that the old ones need also that help in order to free themselves of the old routine of method which were probably good formerly, because they were answering the needs of those generations, hut which are to-day old-fashioned and no lrnger adapted to our times.
The hon. member for Kamouraska did well to call the attention of this House to this important question, and to beg the government to get more interested in the fate of the agricultural classes in the different parts of the country, and to state precisely, as he did, that it is on the province of Quebec that its care should be spread. Why ? Because this province being the first that has been settled, the agricultural customs which were developed, customs which have created these sound and industrious populations which we all admire, are not, however, in a position to correspond to the needs of our times. They must have a guide to show them the defects of their methods, and what should be dc.ne for the general benefit of the province of Quebec and the whole country.
_ If the government has at heart, as I believe, the agricultural interests and wants to protect them, they will gladly accept the proposition of the hon. member for Kam-Mr. BOYCE.
ouraska, whose object is to do away with the routine of which suffered the province of Quebec. The government would accomplish this an intelligent useful and pressing work.
It has been said that the difference of climate and soil in our province asks for different modes of cultivation; this is elementary and it does not require much experience to be proved, but when we pass ficm theory to practice, it becomes very important to have some men trained by study and experience to guide us, if we want to make good work. This is not the duty of individuals, but of the government. Just as the agricultural classes support in the great electoral contests the program of reform of the government, just the same these classes have a right to look for help when it comes to reforms and progress of which they shall benefit.
Some years ago, Mr. Speaker, a great movement was set on foot to give to the province of Quebec a model experimental farm. My predecessor in this House, Hon. Sir Charles Fitzpatrick, was at the head of this movement ; he wanted this farm to be established in the county of Quebec. Whether it pleases or not, my hon. friend from Kamouraska it seems to me that it is the right natural place for a farm of this kind. It was around that the first farms were cultivated at the virgin of the colony. I am not one of those who say that we must'put aside all that was done by our ancestors. Experience proves the contrary, and presently we- find in the county of Quebec the most beautiful farms of the province, some being valued as much as $75 to $1000 an acret. For instance, I will mention the farm of the Quebec seminary, the farm of Mr. Gustave Langelier at Cap-Rouge, upon which he spent lots of money, principally in the improvement of the cattle. At every exhibition, Mr. Langelier always won first prizes.
I believe that the efforts that have been made to bring the government to establish an experimental farm in the limits of the county of Quebec, must be continued, and as a representative of this country, though not being a farmer myself, I believe that it is my duty to continue the work begun. No doubt the financial question must be considered. I understand that the government which has great work on hand cannot apply considerable money for new undertakings, but it seems to me that it is sufficient to appeal in the name of the class which is most interested, the farmers, to urge upon the government to make new sacrifices. When we see at the head of the Department of Agriculture a man who represents so well the agricultural interests, it is to be hoped that in a near future another experimental farm will be established, and that the government will put it in the county of Quebec.

There is no jealousy in the population. It does not concern who will win the medal. It is not neither a question of party between the two sides of this House ; we all love the farmers, and the government has to look upon the agricultural classes for the progress of the country.
I believe that we all agree upon that, and whatever preferences each of us may have, if the government should establish another experimental farm in the county he chooses, we will all applaud.


Andrew Broder: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the debate upon the important question of government experimental stations, and I desire to say only a few words with reference to it. I am at a loss to know how my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture will be able to find locations for all the additional experimental stations which he has been urged to establish.


An hon. MEMBER.: What about Dundas?


Andrew Broder: Dundas is able to take care of itself. I would be in favour of further equipping and developing our existing experimental farms before going too far in establishing additional experimental stations. I believe the experimental farm at Ottawa ought to be one of the best equipped farms in the world, having a staff of the most capable and the most experienced scientific men available. But, there is this difficulty with scientific men. Science is a fine thing but it will not go alone in this world. The scientists should get down to the struggling masses and learn the philosophy of new experience. Every year we take important evidence before the Committee on Agriculture. A year ago we received such evidence, but this evidence is not in the hands of the people yet. I do not say that the minister is to blame for this. It is attributed simply to the system we have had in vogue for years. Evidence which was deemed to be of the greatest importance to the people has not reached them yet. There should be some system adopted by which this evidence may be put in the possession of the people with very little delay. When one takes up evidence that was given over a year ago he says that it is out of date and he will take no interest in it. I do not believe in building experimental stations to fight conditions, but I believe in establishing experimental farms to suggest what is best adapted to each particular locality, following along the lines of least resistance. You do not want to undertake to raise wheat scientifically where wheat is not intended to grow. Follow along the lines of least resistance and give to the country what is best adapted for each particular locality. While some people say that we used to raise good crops when we had none of these farms, that is very true, but the farmer is met by a hundred enemies
to his crop to-day when he did not have one fifty years ago. He is met by a hundred difficulties when he did not have one fifty years ago. The farmer has to fight all along the line. He has to fight bugs and he has to fight lice-we might as well talk plainly -which attack his crop. Every day that he gets up something is attacking his crop, his apples, his potatoes, his hay. What the experimental farms want to do is to suggest to the farmer, not to carry him on their back and let him act upon their suggestions. I believe that much could be done to improve conditions, speaking of Ontario alone. I am not referring to Quebec, and I know a great deal about Quebec because I was born and brought up there. I know that in some sections it is a great apple country and, I want to say, that millions of dollars could be added to the value of the apple crop every year if it were properly taken care of. Now the question is whether it would not pay this country to do the experimenting even at considerable expense. I believe that the localities that are_ suffering because of lack of knowledge in this respect could be easily reached if proper means were adopted to do so. What has been said about British Columbia is of the very greatest importance. I believe that an experimental farm would do a great deal of good in Quebec and the people of Quebec would eagerly use it if it were placed amongst them. They have done a great deal in their province. I was reading, last night, documents issued by the government of Quebec, which indicate a line of work that it would be well for the province of Ontario to copy in many respects. In these documents suggestions were made to the people for beautifying their homes and farms, and prizes were offered for the best kept farms and homes. If the minister will take this matter up and carry out some of the suggestions which have been made this afternoon I am satisfied that his efforts will meet with the hearty appreciation of the people of this country.


Mr. E. B. DEVLIN (Wright).: Mr. Speaker, I want to add a few words before this debate ends, in connection with the resolution which is proposed by my hon. friend the member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe). It seems to me that the resolution can be divided into two parts, first:
That in the opinion of this House it would be in the interests of agriculture that new experimental stations should be located at certain places removed from those now in existence where the conditions of climate and soil are different.
Then, again, referring more especially to the province from which the hon. gentleman comes, he advocates that:
Especially an experimental station should be established and put in operation in the eastern part of the province of Quebec.

I am not speaking upon this subject as a practical farmer. I have been allied with the farming classes for a great many years and I take a very deep interest in farming, though I cannot say that I ever really worked upon or worked a farm. But I take sufficient interest in the Dominion as a whole to understand the importance in this country of agriculture. I do not think that any sum of money is too great to be expended by this parliament in the interest of the farming community of Canada. I believe sir, that the time is not far distant when Canada will depend almost entirely upon its agricultural resources for the aggrandizement of the country and I believe that due importance should be shown to the farming classes. It is fortunate for this House and for this country that we have at the head of the department a man who is eminently qualified to act as Minister of Agriculture. It is fortunate, I say, that we have watching over the interests of the department which is more particularly concerned with the agricultural classes, a man who takes a deep interest in the farming community, a man who has studied the question in all its aspects and a man who never loses an occasion to show farming communities that he is fully competent to judge their needs and to cope with their difficulties. So far, our government has done a great deal which is of benefit to the agricultural classes. The government has expended large sums of money towards the improving and almost perfecting of the cold storage system. We have in this country elevators which are second to none upon the continent and which are of great benefit to its farmers in enabling them to ex-'port their wheat, grain and other products. If I may be permitted to say a word on behalf of the province from which I have the honour to come I would advocate as strongly as I possibly, can the earnest consideration of the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Kamouraska. It is true, that we have here, in the city of Ottawa, an experimental farm. It is true that in the distribution of grain throughout Canada and in the education of the agricultural classes the experimental farm is doing a wonderful work. Owing to the enlightened efforts of the Minister of Agriculture the fame of Central Experimental Farm has been spread throughout the world. And while that is true I do think the provinces, more especially those which are far distant from the capital, have a just claim for the establishment of experimental farm stations. I believe myself that a very appropriate place for an experimental station of not too great magnitude would be across the river in the county of Wright, but I shall not enter into the family quarrel which seems to exist between the hon. member for Quebec county Mr. DEVLIN.
(Mr. Turcotte) and the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe). I might perhaps be induced to waive my claim if either of those gentlemen should succeed in obtaining what he so earnestly desires. I do not think we should be selfish in this matter, and so I am free to endorse the suggestion that the farmers living on the St. Lawrence river below Quebec, in Kamouraska and Temiscouata and these other counties, should have the benefit of an agricultural station in their vicinity. The Minister of Agriculture would do well to give this resolution his earnest consideration and I trust that the House will generously vote a sufficient sum for the establishment of at least one experimental farm station in the province of Quebec.


Mr. A. B. McCOIG (West Kent).: The section of Canada in which my constituency is situated is not only the most important agricultural district in the province of Ontario, but in the Dominion of Canada, and so it behooves me to say a word for the agriculturists of southwestern Ontario.	The farmers of the counties
of Kent and Essex have probably more money invested in the agricultural industry than have the farmers of any other section of a like area in Canada. The fruit industry in that district is of increasing magnitude, although I must confess that there has been to some extent neglect in the furnishing of means to the fruit growers for the protection of their fruit trees. We have been unfortunate enough to have had experience of the San Jose scale pest, and while some assistance has been rendered by the provincial government that assistance has not been adequate. In this connection I would suggest to the Minister of Agriculture and to the government that they should allow the necessary spraying apparatus for the prevention of the San Jose scale, and which is largely manufactured in the United States, to come into Canada free of duty. If assistance were given in this direction we would be able to raise a larger fruit crop and to export this fruit in greater quantities than at present to other parts of Canada, where there is a profitable market for it. It is well that the House should remember that in the counties of Kent and Essex we are blessed with a climate and a soil which enable us to produce crops which cannot be produced in other parts of Canada. For example, last year the sugar beet crop of these two counties was over half a million dollars in value, and the corn crop amounted to at least probably three million dollars' worth. I need not tell hon. gentlemen that the culture of tobacco is also an important industry with us. Hon. gentlemen will readily see how advantageous it would be to the farmers of these counties if there were established in the vicinity of

Chatham an experimental station which would supply information as to the most approved system of cultivating these valuable crops which are largely peculiar to that district. A short time ago there was a corn convention in the county of Essex and had the Minister of Agriculture been able to be present he would have been justly proud of the samples of corn exhibited there. I do not wish to draw an invidious comparison, but nevertheless I think the newspaper was not far astray, which stated, that the samples of corn exhibited from other parts of Canada were as but nobbins compared with the samples from the counties of Kent and Esssex. Then again, as a corollary of the large production of corn in Kent and Essex, there is a very extensive hog raising industry in these counties, and I am safe in saying that three million dollars would not buy the hog products which have been sold from Kent and Essex. I must compliment the Minister of Agriculture that he has done many good things to encourage the hog industry but something yet remains to be done. The hog trade is not only of importance to the farmers of this district but it is of almost equal interest to the people of the other provinces who to a very large extent buy their dressed hogs from these two counties. I have every confidence in the Minister of Agriculture that he will give us every assistance within his power to enable us to profitably pursue that valuable industry. Then, I endorse all that has been said in favour of a large free circulation of bulletins in the different sections of the country, and I would specially suggest that an effort should be made to distribute these bulletins with particular reference to the kind of crop which is most successfully grown in any given district. These bulletins should be sent not only to the few on the subscription lists of the agricultural colleges but they should be distributed in all the schools of Canada so that the children might learn, and so that they might take home to their parents this information and instruction as to the most modern and best means of pursuing the agricultural industry. I halve felt, Mr. Speaker, that when a motion of this kind was submitted to the House, I would not be doing my duty as the representative of the most important agricultural county of Kent were I to refrain from saying a few words upon a question so interesting to my constituents.


Mr. JOHN BARR (Dufferin).: Representing, as I do, an agricultural constituency, I desire to express my views on the question now before the House. It is gratifying to know that there are questions upon which we can unite for the common good, divesting our minds of all political feelings. That is as it should be. For, when we come to consider the great subject of 62	!	!l.- 1	1	"1
agriculture, we cannot but realize that it is to the agriculturists that we must look for building up this country of ours. Though we have only seven millions of people at the present time, we have land to provide farms for a hundred millions. We should dig broad and deep the foundations for this great industry of agriculture. It seems to me that the successive governments of this Dominion have not given to this subject the consideration that it deserves. I say this without referring to one government more than to another. We have never given a fair proportion of our expenditure to the benefit and encouragement of agriculture. When we consider that nine-tenths of the inhabitants of Canada are of the agricultural class, and when we consider how little of our public expenditure goes to the development of agriculture, we cannot feel that we are doing our whole duty. It is true that the government has done much in this line, but there is very much more still to be done. There are only three or four experimental farms in the Dominion. The present resolution is in favour of establishing such farms in the eastern part of the province of Quebec. We have our Central Experimental Farm on the border between Ontario and Quebec, and that farm has done good work, and we are proud of it. But we know that conditions of soil and climate vary greatly in different parts of the Dominion, and, therefore, I contend we should have not merely an experimental farm on the border between Ontario and Quebec, but one in the eastern part of Quebec and one in the western part of Ontario. Instead of spending half a million in this service, we might well spend two or three millions. Agriculture is very different froni what it was half a century ago. At that time we had but to tickle the soil and put in the seed and Providence would do the rest. Now, we have all sort of enemies to contend with. It is impossible for any faimer alone to learn how his farm can best be handled under the conditions that obtain to-day. With experimental farms in different parts of the Dominion the best means of meeting the enemies that the farmer has to contend with would be discovered and the farmers could be educated in these methods as they are introduced. There are great new areas of the country being opened up which could be developed more quickly if experimental stations were established to learn how agriculture can best be carried on under the existing conditions. Some years ago we saw exhibited in the provincial legislature of Ontario wheat that was grown on the other side of the height of land, and beautiful wheat it was. It was grown by one of the then members for Ottawa on a large farm he had in that country. Hundreds and thousands of people are going into this new country which is being opened up by the



Temiscaming and Northern Ontario and Grand Trunk Pacific Railways. I believe we should have an experimental farm there for the benefit of those who are taking up farming in that country. The results would be beneficial to all Canada, for that country is rich not only in minerals, but, I am quite confident, in agricultural resources also. We should have experimental farms in the several provinces, and should spend large sums for the purpose of educating the farmers. I believe also that we should have agriculture taught in our schools. Our provinces are doing good work, but the Dominion ought to lead, not lag behind, in experimental work for the advancement of agriculture.


Mr. A. H. CLARKE (South Essex).: I desire to say a few words on a question which, while not strictly in line with the resolution, is of great interest to the fruitgrowers of the district I represent, and, therefore, I ask the indulgence of the House for a few moments. The matter to which I refer has been spoken of by the hon. member for West Kent (Mr. McCoig)-the question of protecting the fruit trees from pests. For, we may have experimental farms and encourage agricultural industry, but it will be in vain unless we protect the product we already have. There is great complaint in my part of the country that sufficient encouragement and assistance is not given by the government to the extermination of the scale and other pests wh^ch affect fruit trees. Special complaint is made that paris green and other spraying materials furnished in this country are not effective, and these materials are brought from the United States. The Horticultural Society and the Fruit Growers' Society have passed resolutions asking that the duty be taken off spraying materials in order to encourage the farmers to get rid of the scale and other pests that are doing so much to destroy the orchards of southwestern Ontario. I am sorry that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), who has to do with the question of duties, is not in his place, but I hope this matter will be brought to his notice and that something will be done to assist in protecting the fruit trees from these pests.


Mr. DAVID HENDERSON (Halton).: This debate has taken a wide range, and I shall ask permission to advert for a moment to some of the side questions that have been brought in. I am glad to hear the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. A. H. Clarke) speak of the necessity of securing the best spraying materials to assist the horticulturists of this country in getting rid of the pests that destroy the profit of their industry. The other day a petition was presented to the government asking that certain spraying materials should be placed upon the free list in order to give to those who have occasion to use Mr. BARR.
them a better article. The allegation was made that a proper spraying material was not produced in Canada. If that is the case it is the duty of the government to place such articles on the free list. That is in accordance with the policy inaugurated in 1878, where an article was not produced in this country it should be given to the people of Canada at the lowest possible price. I have here a circular issued by a company at Niagara who are manufacturers of spraying materials. It states that this article is manufactured by the Niagara Spraying Company, of Middleboro, New York, U.S.A. I understand that the product of this factory is a desirable article, and I draw the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to it. I am sorry the Minister of Finance is not here, because I think if he were to take note of it he would at once assist by the free admission of that article, for the destruction of the various pests that trouble the horticulturists.
We talk a great deal about benefiting the tarmers by experimental farms and thus enabling them to carry on their operations to much greater advantage, and to produce larger crops. The hon. member for East Kent (Mr. McCoig) a few moments ago made a reference to the hog industry of the country and to the large amount of hogs produced in his county. To my mind the very best experiment that the government to-day can adopt with regard to agricultural products is an experiment along the line of securing the greatest market we possibly can for the Canadian people for what they do produce and the better way to do that is to make sure that we prevent the large invasion of American products into this country. This invasion is ah injury to our farmers, inasmuch as the American products monopolize a large part of the market which ought to belong to our Canadian people. That is another matter to which I would direct the attention of the Minister of Agriculture. I do not think he can better help the hog industry than by doubling the duty and keeping out the American product as far as possible, giving all the market we have to the Canadian people. This might apply to other lines of agricultural products as well. It is useless to expend money to increase our production unless we safeguard our market for the production when it has been made. Along that line I think the government can use their energies and ability with very great advantage to the people of Canada.


Mr. J. A. DUBEAU (Joliette).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of unduly prolonging this debate, but as the representative of a largely agricultural constituency, I consider it my duty to support the motion of the hon. member for Kamouraska.

I will take advantage of the opportunity to remind the House that last year, in the course of a debate on the best means of favouring the development of the Canadian tobacco industry, I requested the hon. the Minister of the Interior to amend the Inland Revenue Act in such a manner as to issue the same license to all Canadian tobacco manufacturers, whether they handle foreign, mixed or purely Canadian leaf, instead of obliging them to take out three different licenses for these different branches of industry.
I also requested that the system of variously coloured stamps which manufacturers were obliged to place upon their goods, according to the origin of the leaf, be done away with. The government granted my request and so amended the Inland Revenue Act as to issue the same license for the manufacture of all tobacco whatever may be their classification, while according to the new departmental regulations, a uniform stamp is now issued to all. For this I tender my thanks to the government. These changes have rendered and continue to render great assistance to the Canadian tobacco industry, which is being very notably developed in the province of Quebec. I believe, however, as I had occasion to remark when the question was' debated last year, that we will be obliged to follow the example of other countries, and establish, in the midst of the planters, experimental stations under the charge of experts who are able to guide them in the proper industrial treatment of the leaf, in order to produce an article suitable to the requirements of trade. May I therefore express the hope that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will be able to place in the estimates a sum of money for the establishment of an experimental station in the district of Joliette. This would enable us to improve our tobacco to such an extent as to make it a staple article of export. Some days ago, a denutation composed of the members of the Tobacco Planters' Association of the district of Joliette, waited upon the government _ for the purpose of expressing the necessity of the establishment of an experimental tobacco station in that district. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture being at that time absent in Washington, I desire to call his attention to this fact, and I hone that he will give the request of the planters his most favourable consideration.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: I must congratulate my hon. friend from Kamouraska, not only on the substance of the resolution he has introduced. but also on the manner in which he supported it. He has shown us that he has thoroughly studied the question, not only in its application to the Quebec district. but also to the whole Dominion. I 62i
have great pleasure in accepting the resolution, and hope that it will meet with the unanimous concurrence of the House. The resolution is in line with what was proposed two or three years ago.
Two or three years ago we put into the estimates a sum of money for the purpose of establishing branch stations on the experimental farm system. We have already acquired three such stations since that time, and I have been in negotiation with proprietors in other parts of the country with the object of securing suitable locations for other branch stations. I want to say that the requests which we have received from hon. members here to-day, and requests for such stations in different parts of the country, involve very large expenditures, and show great eagerness for the establishment of these stations. In deciding where we shall first do this work we have kept this principle in view, that the experimental stations should serve the largest number of people in a district which was a fair sample of a large area of country, rather thaif to establish stations m districts which should serve an area for a small population, or as a model of work of a restricted and peculiar character.


Mr. MONK.: Would the minister say where the three stations are now ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: One is in the semi dry district of southern Alberta, one is in the northern part of Alberta, and one in the northern part of Saskatchewan. Since the question has been asked, I will say why it was that these localities were first chosen for this work. In the original establishment of the experimental farm system, there were five farms established. There was the Central Experimental Farm here at Ottawa, which was expected to serve the purpose of Ontario and Quebec, lying as it does on the boundary line between them. One was near the boundary line between the province of New Brunswick and the province of Nova Scotia and within easy reach of Prince Edward Island, to serve the purposes of the maritime provinces. One was established in the then comparatively new province of Manitoba at Brandon; a fourth was established at Indian Head in the then new territory further west, and a fifth was established in the great province of British Columbia. The idea was that these stations should serve the provinces mentioned. When, however, a few years ago we established two new provinces In the Northwest, we found that the province of Alberta had no farm which seemed to serve the needs of that great agricultural province. The question was how we could meet these needs, and instead of establishing a branch farm at some central point for the whole province, as was done in the earlier scheme

of organization, we thought better to establish two smaller stations, one in the south part, which is dryer, and one in the more central part of that great agricultural province, nearer the northern region, where farming must necessarily be of a mixed character, and where conditions are different from those at Lethbridge, where the southern farm was established.


Mr. STAPLES.: How many acres were acquired for the experimental farm in the northern part?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will not go into details of that kind just now.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Perhaps the minister will tell us when these new farms were established?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As soon as possible after the establishment of the province of Alberta. I think I acquired the first one about two years ago, and the second one a little over a year ago, immediately after the province of Alberta was established. Now a third farm was established in the northern part of Saskatchewan, very much for the same reason that the two farms were established in Alberta. The farm at Indian Head, in Saskatchewan, is in the southern part of the province on the line of the Canadian Pacific Railway, where the land is altogether prairie, where the climate is rather dry, and where farming consisted in wheat growing. We wish to establish another farm in the northern part where wood land is mixed with prairie land, and where the syle of agriculture will be necessarily different from that in the southern part. For that purpose we have bought a farm at Rosthern, between Saskatoon and Prince Albert. I have been in negotiation with the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island with a view to their purchasing a farm each, and placing it at our disposal for this work. We have not yet been able to fix upon the exact location, but I believe that before long these governments will be able to place at our disposal for the purpose of carrying on such work as this, one farm in the fruitgrowing district of Nova Scotia, and another in the centre of Prince Edward Island. I have had many applications for the enlargement of this system, and I wish to continue in the line that we have begun. I may say that I have already promised that a farm shall be established on the island of Vancouver, in British Columbia. The conditions there are very different, from an agricultural point of view, from the condtions on the mainland, and it seems only fair and right that that great island should have a model station where experiments and illustrations of the best agricultural methods can be carried on. My hon. friend from Kootenay (Mr. Goodeve), and my hon. friend from Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Burrell), Mr. FISHER.
have spoken of the interior or dry belt of the province of British Columbia. Here let me say to those gentlemen from British Columbia that no district in the Dominion has been given more careful consideration and study than the mainland of the province of British Columbia, both on my own part and on the part of my officials.
Most of us know pretty well the general character of that great province, but probably none of us realize its immense agricultural possibilities. The beauty of its scenery is famed the world over, as are the richness of its mineral resources and its wealth of fisheries, but I venture to say that in the future it will be the agriculture and the fruit growing of British Columbia of which Canada will be most proud, and from which it will reap the greatest advantages. I dare say it is a surprise to many to learn that there are 75,000 acres of orchard land in that province, and while many of the trees are not yet bearing, still so great has been the profit accruing that in recent years there have been thousands of acres of fruit trees planted and the experience already has proven that those who have engaged in the industry have been wise in their generation. There is a difficulty in the way, however. The country i3 divided by mountain chains and ridges, and the crop which is suitable to one valley may not be suitable to any very wide area. It is therefore impossible to find one central spot in the interior of British Columbia where an experimental farm or illustration station could be established to serve the whole of the interior. Until the time comes when such stations will be numerous, we will have to proceed on the principle of selecting a site which will serve the largest area and the greatest number of agriculturists within reasonable reach of the centre. In most other parts of Canada an illustration or experimental station will serve a- very large area and to begin with it is well that we should place them where they will be of benefit to the greatest number of people. I have been guided as much as possible by this consideration in the order in which I have taken up the placing of these experimental stations. I would like to go much further in this direction than I have gone. Let me tell hon. gentlemen who have not been many years in this House a little bit of history. In the year 1899 I came forward with a proposition in regard to illustration stations somewhat smaller than those branch experimental stations, and I desired as time went on and as I was allowed to have money enough to do it, to establish such a station in every county of the Dominion. And after eight years experience of the results of that proposition not having been given effect to, I have no hesitation in saying that the loss has been enormous to the agriculturists of Canada. But, the House of Commons was opposed to my

proposition and it had to be withdrawn, and from that day to this I have not undertaken to reintroduce it. I hope, however, that my idea will be amplified as time goes on, until, if not in every county of the Dominion, at all events in every part of the Dominion where an experimental station may serve a large number of agriculturists,, we shall have one established. I am glad to hear my hon. friend from Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe) and other hon. gentlemen approve of the stations already established. I can endorse what my hon. friend from South Alberta (Mr. Magrath) said as to the effects of the experimental farm at Indian Head. The district of Indian Head is probably to-day the most productive of that great whea't growing region, and I only speak what I have heard said by hundreds and hundreds of the best judges in the Northwest when I say that the fact that the Indian Head district is to-day so much in advance of most parts of the Northwest is due to the establishment of the experimental farm station there. I venture to say that everybody who knows the great wheat growing prairie area between the great lakes and the Rocky mountains will endorse my statement that Mr. McKay, the manager of the Indian Head farm, has done more to educate the farmers of the Northwest in the proper methods of wheat growing than any other dozen or perhaps any other hundred men in the Dominion of Canada. His work in that direction has been largely assisted by the fact that at Indian Head he has been able to carry on careful experimentation and observation, the results of which he has for a long term of years placed before the farmers of the Northwest. I believe that the, same can be said for the experimental farm at Brandon and other farms throughout the country. My hon. friend from Dundas (Mr. Broder) spoke about the value to the farmers of the evidence taken before 4he select committee on agriculture and he seemed to complain that this literature was not as freely circulated as it might be. Well, that is for the Committee of Agriculture and the Committee on Printing to deal with, because the taking of that evidence and the distribution of it is entirely under the control of the members of this House, and the Department of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture have nothing to do with it. If the evidence is not sent out to the farmers of Canada it is because the members of the House do not take the trouble to send it out.


Andrew Broder: The difficulty is that such a long time elapses before it is printed.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That defect can be remedied by the Committee on Printing and the Committee on Agriculture. I have no more control over that as Minister of Agriculture than my hon. friend has. I have inveighed against it, and urged the Committee on Agriculture to take steps with regard to it, but effective steps have not yet been taken.
Now, let me say a word with regard to some remarks of my hon., friend from Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Burrell). He spoke of irrigation and said that nothing had been done by the Department of Agriculture to measure the water that was required for the irrigating of certain lands. Let me say that in the establishment of the experimental station at Lethbridge a little more than two years ago that very work was taken up. Mr. Fairfield, the manager of that station, is an expert in irrigation work, and one of the first things that was laid out for him was that he should establish gates and measures on the irrigation canals of that farm, and watch them and take notes, and find out as quickly as possible the very point my hon. friend asked for. It is true, these gates and measures and sluices have only been built a little less than a year. They were erected as soon as possible after we acquired the farm, and therefore we have no results yet which we can place before the public; but just as soon as it is possible to obtain the results, they will be made available for those who wish to carry on irrigation work. Nobody appreciates more than myself the immense value of irrigation work in semi-arid or dry parts of our country. That has been impressed upon me for years, both in regard to that large area of land in the interior of British Columbia and that large area in southern Alberta and southern Saskatchewan, which until quite recently was thought to be too dry for agricultural experiments. I am glad to say that discoveries have been made by which to-day it is well known that much of that dry land can be cultivated, under methods which any farmer can carry on, and that excellent crops are assured in those parts of the country without irrigation. Irrigation is a splendid adjunct and help to that kind of dry farming. On the station at Lethbridge just that kind of work is being experimented with, and just as soon as we have any results that are assured, that information will be given to the public. If there is one thing in connection with the experimental farm system of Canada of which I am proud, and of which everybody connected with agriculture in Canada may be proud, it is that Dr. Saunders, who is at the head of that system, is a man of scientific attainments, well trained in scientific agricultural experimental work, a man who hesitates to jump to conclusions, but who, as soon as the conclusions have been scien-tificially proved, is well able to put them clearly and concisely, so that the ordinary farmer can understand them; and it has been the glory of that system, that what has been concluded as the results of years

of experiment, and what has been put before the public, has been universally acknowledged to be correct and well founded. Dr. Saunders and bis staff have never yet been obliged to withdraw any point that they have put forward, and have never been found out in hasty or incorrect conclusions. I congratulate Canada, and I congratulate myself as the minister in charge of that particular work, that we have a man of scientific training and attainments on whose word we can thoroughly and absolutely rely as to the results of his experiments.
Let me say, too, in reply to my hon. friend from Dundas (Mr. Broder), that while he is correct in saying that science must be joined with practice, still without science-and science to be of any use must be full and clear-the work of the practical farmer would be much less efficient than it is to-day in Canada. It was only a few weeks ago that in this city of Ottawa, and in these buildings, there was held the annual meeting of the Seed Grain Growers Association, and I regret extremely that more members of the House did not take part in that meeting. Dr. Robertson, the head of the McDonald Agricultural College at St. Anne, delivered an address in which he put before the meeting the fact that if the fields of grain in the province of Quebec generally had produced as much per acre as the fields of grain on the McDonald College farm, they would have produced $100,000,000 worth more than the grain crops of Quebec last year amounted to. That was not the quantity raised on the experimental plots, but was the quantity raised on some two hundred acres of the McDonald College farm. This is a statement of startling importance; and I venture to say, in reply to the hon. member from Dundas, that scientific knowledge is the handmaid of practical agriculture. Without scientific knowledge practical agriculture cannot make those advances in our country and on this continent which its importance justifies. The farmers of Canada today, partly through the experimental farm system, partly through the operations of the other branches of my department, and partly through the work of the different branches of agriculture in the various provinces, have an abundance of knowledge at their disposal which they do not make full use of. If they would make use of one-tenth of it and carry one-hun-dreth part of it into their everyday operations, the results would amount to tens of millions of dollars more from agricultural produce than there is to-day. It is the farmer's slip-shod methods in this country which is the limit of our agricultural production. We are fortunate in Canada in having established a reputation in the world's market for a fine quality of agricultural product; and today the market of Great Britain and Ireland is reaching out Mr. FISHER.
and demanding more of our finished agricultural products than we are sending to it, and the prices we get for these articles which we do send are such as to give the farmers of this country who raise the goods and export them splendid profits and splendid results, and the only pity is that the farmers of Canada are not doubling and quadrupling their exports every year. If they do not do it, it is not for lack of teaching or for lack of knowledge; it is for their lack of interest in their work, their lack of industry, and largely, I believe, for, the lack of that labour which is necessary in the carrying on of our farming operations.
Sir, the experimental farm system has, for twenty odd years back, been laying before the farmers knowledge of an inestimable value. Many have taken advantage of it, many have improved their methods as a result of it; enough have done so to be a leaven that is working through the whole system of agriculture in the country. There has been enormous progress, there has been great improvement and the agriculture of Canada to-day is infinitely ahead of what it was twenty years ago when the experimental farm system was first established. This is largely due to the example and model of these farms. It is largely due to the experiments which have been carried on, the principal results of which have been sent broadcast among the people through reports and bulletins, that this progress and improvement are so great. I venture to think that we can safely and wisely multiply the number of illustration stations so that the farmers who do not read and do not quite apprehend all that they do read may be able to go easily to these stations and see what they can do. Then I think they would be more willing to go home and try to follow up what they have seen. I would be glad, if, within seeing reach of every farmer in the Dominion, there was an experimental plot, or rather, I would like to call it an illustration plot, where, he could see the best methods in regard to those crops which are best adapted to the region in which he lives, so that the eye, as well as the comprehension in reading, will teach him what to do. It is a big and broad subject and the undertaking is too much to be accomplished in one year or perhaps in ten years, but we ought to work towards that end, and the resolution which my hon. friend from Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe) has introduced is a confirmation of my own opinion and an encouragement to me to go on and try to carry out as much as possible of the system which I had already inaugurated and which I would	like to	amplify'	- ,	.	,	,Let me say	]ust one word	m	regard	to apoint that I	had in mind. Different	sections of the country have organized excursions to the experimental farms in other parts of the country as well as to the ex-
perimental farm here. A very good thing. We have had some of the most interested and _ most intelligent bodies of farmers coming from the province of Quebec to the Central Experimental Farm, among them men who have come as far as 400 or 500 miles and spent three or four days on the trip so as to be able to have an opportunity of seeing the work on that farm and of going home with a better understanding of what farming is in a scientific way. I may say that I have had abundant evidence of this fact. I have letters by the score and by the hundreds from these people congratulating the Department of Agriculture on what was being done at the Central Experimental Farm, letters, which have, in consequence of these visits, even anticipated my hon. friend from Kamouraska and other hon. gentlemen who have asked for the establishment of other experimental stations. This is the best evidence of the value of these experimental stations, and I am glad to know that these excursions have taken place in different parts of the country. In Nova Scotia, Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island farmers have organized excursions to Nappan, out in the west, in the province of Manitoba, excursions are held to Brandon; in Saskatchewan and Alberta to Indian Head, and I believe also in British Columbia there are excursions of those interested in the fruit growing industry to Agassiz.
Let me say one word in reply to the remarks of my hon. friend from Yale-Carihoo (Mr. Burrell) in that connection. He spoke of the work there as being no use to the interior dry belt. I agree with him that it is of very little use. It happens that Agassiz is a very wet place and the result is that the work of fruit growing there is of very little value from the experimental point of, view to the dry belt of British Columbia. The farm is so situated that it is almost impossible to keep live stock on it successfully and well. The result is that the farm has not been of that advantage to British Columbia which was expected, and which, I think, a farm of that kind ought to be. That is one reason why I immediately decided that I would put a farm on the Island of Vancouver and why I have been groping and trying to find the right place to put an experimental station in the dry belt of the province. An hon. gentleman spoke about protection against insect pests and diseases which attack fruit trees, &c. Our farm system has been working on that ever since its inception. Let me here say that one of the very best officers of the experimental farm system was the late lamented Dr. Fletcher, entymologist and botanist of the experimental farm. His reputation and work extended far beyond the limits of Canada. He inaugurated economic botany and entymology, which is the true application of these two great natural sciences to the practical work of the farm, and his work has told so well that Canada is today freer of insect pests than any other country, which produces so much fruit and has so many trees. It is true that in a small portion of Ontario the San Jose scale is planted and established. That occurred some years ago, but our measures to shut out nursery stock and seedlings coming in from the United States, which is infested with this scale without fumigation, have been so successful that this pest has not been introduced into any part of Canada where it was not then in existence. It is true that it is spreading a little in that portion of Ontario where it has existed for so long. Efforts have been made to control it and reduce its evil effects.. The provincial government has been acting in this direction and I believe to-day that while the work has not been altogether successful it is largely due to the efforts of the provincial government that the pest has not spread much more widely and that it has not covered those parts of the province where the fruits which it affects are produced. We must beware of other pests. Just at this present moment Dr. Saunders and his staff are watching and fighting against the introduction into parts of Canada where it is not yet known of an insect which is known as the brown tailed moth, a pest which has attacked the great state of New York and other states on the border and is creating the utmost havoc amongst fruit and other trees. That pest is known slightly in our own maritime provinces. We are taking steps to stimulate its extermination there and we are watching and examining every entry of fruit trees and seedlings coming into Canada from those countries where this pest exists, so as to make sure that the pest will not be introduced into this country. That is but one instance of the work that the farm system is doing to protect this great fruit growing industry.
My hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) said a few words a little while ago about spraying materials. I commend his views with regard to the free entry of spraying materials, and I can only congratulate him, myself and the House on the fact that so ardent a protectionist as he is is willing to reduce the duties or remove them from any item. I am glad to hear it and I can assure him that he has my entire sympathy. I have spoken perhaps too long, but I feel very strongly on this subject. I think that I am in a better position than most men to know what has been the advantage of such work as the experimental farm stations and similar stations can do in this country. I have no hesitation at all in saying that what little expenditure Canada has made in this way has been returned, not only to the farmers,

but to every man, woman and child within the boundaries of the Dominion, ten and twenty times over in the results which have been achieved; and I am satisfied that any further expenditure, even running into large sums if we are able, with the present declining revenue to spend, the money will be equally well returned to the whole country. Do not imagine for a moment, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question which affects the farmers only. It affects the whole country; it affects the transportation interest, the mercantile interests, the export trade and the import trade. If, in any way, we can accomplish even one-tenth of what Dr. Robertson said could be accomplished in the province of Quebec simply in one part of the work of improving agriqulture-the improvement in the seed grain-we shall deserve well of our country, and I am sure that future generations will arise and call us blessed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, we have just heard a most interesting debate and I am not surprised, I admit, at the promise which has just been made on behalf of the government. I expected a precise statement from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher), for although this question may appear a new one in certain respects, in others it is not so. I well remember having referred to it in this House during the last parliament and having laid before the government the same request as that made to-day by the member for Kamour-aska, for the establishment in the province of Quebec of a very unpretending experimental farm, not nearly so extensive as the central farm at Ottawa, but sufficient nevertheless to supply our farmers with that information which it is difficult for them to obtain from our central station. I entered into no details as to its situation or extent. I stated before the House that we had spent much for the experimental farms so far established and that in view of the various conditions obtaining throughout our vast territory, this expenditure, great though it had been, was yet inadequate to the wants of the different provinces. I requested the minister to establish in the province of Quebec a model farm which would be within the reach of all the inhabitants of that province, and so conducted that farmers speaking the French language might be enabled to reap every possible benefit therefrom.
It is a great satisfaction to me to find that the minister has considerably altered his views concerning such stations, for when I made that request, urging practically the same arguments and giving the same statistics which have been to-day adduced before the House, I could not secure his approval. I predicted that he would become a convert Mr. FISHER.
to public opinion and I now find that he has been reclaimed.
No doubt, I would have desired more explicit explanations on the part of the minister as to the location of the farm to be built in compliance with the wishes of the hon. member for Kamouraska. The question being one of long standing and having been several times submitted to the Minister of Agriculture, who now admits that the step is necessary, we had a right to expect from him something more positive concerning the establishment he intends to create in the eastern portion of Quebec.
After the harmonious debate of this afternoon, I have certainly no intention of striking a discordant note, but I will say that in view of the great development of experimental farms in the Northwest, we are entitled to require a little more than this for the province of Quebec. There are already three experimental farms in that region of comparatively recent development. The minister has to-day declared that he has considered it necessary to establish no less than two new farms in Alberta and one in Saskatchewan. He informs us that another will soon be in operation in British Columbia. Now what arguments are we in a position to bring up in support of the motion now before the House? Have we not the Lake St. John region, containing at least a million acres of farming land upon which hundreds of rich and prosperous parishes might be built up? Have we not also the ancient valley of the St. Lawrence, concerning which our data are very general and vague and which is generally supposed to be so poor that the farmers living there scarcely reap a sufficiency? Nothing could be more removed from the truth, the regiop being exceedingly rich, but its various climates require to be studied. It is well known that fruit-growing has been undertaken with excellent results to the east of the city of Quebec. Have we not, moreover the valley of the Metapedia, where settlement is well advanced and which would be benefited by an experimental farm in eastern Quebec?
I am gratified to find that opinions which I claim as having been the first to express them here, are to-day unanimously accepted, even by the minister who some years ago had not attained the conviction which he has proclaimed to-day. Shall we have that experimental farm, and when?
There seems to be, I regret to find, some difference of opinion, even among the representatives of the region, as to the proper location of the experimental farm. The member for Quebec claims it for his constituency.


Onésiphore Ernest Talbot: (Translation.) He is not
serious.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) And one of them made statements which are to be regretted when he said that the farmers of his county were wedded to routine. This is often said of our French Canadian farmers and it is untrue. Let our farmers be given the same opportunities of progressing, let means of education be extended to them as generously as they are to others, and I am convinced that that exceedingly intelligent portion of our fellow countrymen will be even more prompt in taking advantage of them than many other portions of the population of Canada. I have acquired this conviction while travelling through the province of Quebec.
I would advise my friends in the Quebec district to elect a few more members to sit on the opposition side of the House. That would perhaps help them in obtaining experimental farms of which the government is so profuse in the west. How can the thing be explained unless by the indifference of the government? My hon. friend may indeed desire to punish those whom he loves and according to the principle of the Good Shepherd, he may be willing to leave the faithful flock, to go off in search of the stray lambs. I cannot tell; but apparently it is to the advantage of certain portions of the country not to pay too humble a court to the powers that be.


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Postmaster General).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I will add but a few words to the speech of my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture. As to the somewhat acerb remarks of the member for Jacques Cartier, I may pass them over in consideration of the cordial support he has given to the motion submitted by * the nember for Kamouraska.
The latter deserves to be congratulated upon the eloquent and instructive speech he has delivered, a speech showing that he has seriously studied the question. My hon. friend's success has been the more remarkable that opinions are generally so sharply divided here. He has rallied every representative in this House from Halifax to Vancouver to the idea that we have so long entertained of establishing an experimental farm in the district of Quebec. Montreal cannot object to such a request which is of more or less local interest. Indeed Montreal is within three hours journey of the excellent experimental farm we have here in Ottawa. Moreover, the whole Montreal region will reap especial benefit from the great agricultural school lately founded in the province of Quebec by that distinguished Scotchman, Sir William McDonald. The Oka school also will be of great use to the district of Montreal. But Quebec is far removed from Ottawa and from those schools. The climate of Quebec, as is well known,
differs from that of Montreal. Even within the Quebec district important variations of climate may be observed. Thus, in Gaspe and Bonaventure, the winter is longer than in Quebec, but milder. Summer and autumn lasts three and sometimes four weeks more.
We of Bonaventure and Gaspe have no present intention of claiming an experimental farm. The Quebec district proper should, we think, take precedence; that is one of the clearest results of the motion made this afternoon by my hon. friend from Kamouraska.
The member for Jacques Cartier does not seem convinced of the government's good faith in this matter. He even claims that if the district of Quebec should obtain an experimental farm, it will be due to his own efforts. I know that during the last session certain questions were asked concerning this, but I think I am not mistaken when I say that during the last election the people of the Quebec region themselves delivered to their representatives an imperative mandate to have so important a question definitely settled.
The member for Kamouraska deserves our thanks for having taken this matter in hand, and also our congratulations for hav ing succeeded in carrying conviction to both sides of the House. He has been through out the spokesman of the district of Quebec and has obtained from the Minister of Agriculture the equivalent of an official promise that his views will be promptly carried out.



ADJOUKNMENT - BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. K. L. BORDEN.: What business will be taken up to-morrow?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: The Bill of the Secretary of State (Mr. Murphy); then the Bill respecting the Civil Service, if it is ready, if not, Supply, Railways and Canals.
House adjourned at six o'clock.

Thursday, March 4, 1909.