1909-02-08

Mr.  E. N.@: LEWIS (West Huron) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 45) respecting a load line on ships sailing on the inland waters of Canada.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Explain.


Mr. LEWIS.: This Bill has reference to an official load-line on ships sailing on the inland waters of Canada, and also to coasting vessels, but not including foreign ships. It is modelled after the sections of the English Act with reference to the load-line on ships. The purpose of the Bill is to lessen the liability to these very regrettable accidents which happen in the fall of the year, and which cause very great loss of life, as in the case of the 'Jones' two years ago, and the ' Asia ' some years previously. The clause referring to the inland waters applies only after the 15th of September, and until the 15th of May in each year. There is also a clause with reference to the loadline of barges on the coasting waters of Canada, and that clause is modelled on a Bill brought in by Mr. Lawrence, formerly member for Colchester, but which was not passed into law. There is also a clause which obliges the captain who enters his ship outward from each port in Canada after the 15th day of September until the 15th day of May in each year to leave with the customs officers before he gets his clearance a list of every person leaving port on his ship, with names and addresses. There is also a clause with reference to the loading of ships. One of the chief causes of these accidents is that ships are loaded on deck in a hurry to get produce out in the rush in the fall of the year.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: Might I ask the Prime Minister what is the reason of the delay in organizing the Public Accounts Committee? It is very important that this committee should be organized at the earliest possible moment, if we are to expedite the work of the session, and already a week has passed.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that' all the committees have been called for organization to-morrow.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not heard 6f that.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that is the arrangement.


Wilfrid Laurier: 



REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES.

Robert Laird Borden: When may we expect the report of the Department of Fisheries?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: I think it is ready; jt will be brought down as soon as I get it.


Robert Laird Borden: It will be distributed almost immediately?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.



SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved that Mr. Warburton be placed on the Public Accounts Committee in the place of the Hon. Charles Murphy.
Motion agreed to.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved that Mr. Harris be placed on the Committee of Agriculture in the place of Mr. Prowse.
Motion agreed to.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved that Mr. McCraney be added to the Committee on Standing Orders.
Motion agreed to.

Mr. EMMERSON.: I desire to ask the Minister of Railways as to when we may expect a copy of the report of the commissioners authorized by him to inquire into the branch lines of the railway connecting with the Intercolonial, which information was promised in the speech from the Throne.


Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM.: It is quite a large report, and is being copied as rapidly as possible. I asked my deputy about it to-day, and he said that we would have it in a very short time.


Robert Laird Borden: Shall we have it printed ?


George Perry Graham: No.



QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

Wilfrid Laurier: 
Robert Laird Borden: So far as what took place between Mr. Templeman and myself is concerned, it is quite true that I did not send a written answer to him, but I spoke to him explaining the reason why I had not done so. And I certainly understood from what took place between us on that occasion, that he would gather 

that there was some mistake in the telegram. I had no doubt that that impression would be firmly imprinted on his mind from what took place, I understood that he required no further answer. In his letter to me he expressed his own conviction that I had not sent the telegram in the terms in which it was published; I have his letter to that effect which I can produce. While on this matter, I wish to refer to comment made in at least, one Liberal journal, the Montreal ' Herald.' Notwithstanding my explanation made twice in this House, it repeated the statement a few days ago that I had known immediately after the publication, on the 26th day of October, that the telegram had been altered. For the third time I repeat in this House that I did not know anything about that until the middle of December after my return from the south. Therefore the statement of the Montreal ' Herald,' the inaccuracy of which I cannot account for on any principle of fair-play, is absolutely untrue. I make that announcement for the third time in this House; but I do not doubt that the misrepresentation will continue in certain quarters.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. TURRIFF moved the second reading of Bill (No. 30), respecting .the subsidy from the Ontario Government to the Lake Superior branch of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.
Mr. LENNOX.: I would ask the hon. gentleman to explain the necessity for this


Mr. TURRIFF.: I do not know that I can give very much of an explanation; but my understanding of the matter is that this Bill is to confirm an agreement made between

the government of Ontario and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.


Haughton Lennox: I can see that much by the Bill itself and by the notice on the Order Paper ; but what I would like the hon gentleman to explain is how the necessity for the Bill arises.


John Gillanders Turriff: I will explain all that before the Railway Committee.


Haughton Lennox: That is not the time. This is the time.


Mr. CONMEE.: I did not notice the Bill on the Order Paper, but I happen to know-something of the matter. I think there are provisions in the Provincial Act granting the subsidy from which the company desires the relief. That perhaps is the secret of the Bill. If so, I would ask the hon. gentleman to let the Bill stand for a few days until we find out what it means.


Mr. BARR.: I think we should know something about this Bill. The hon. gentleman thinks the explanations should be made before the Railway Committee; but all the members of this House do not belong to that committee. My hon. friend from Rainy River (Mr. Conmee) suggests that there may be secrecy about '+ and we ought to know whether that is the case or not.


John Gillanders Turriff: If the Bill does not commend itself to the good judgment of the Railway Committee, which is composed of practically every member of the House, we shall never hear any more about it. However I have no objection to its standing.
Motion withdrawn.



QUESTIONS.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN asked:: 1.	What was the number of (a) permanent employees, and (b) temporary employees in the service or employment of the Department of Marine and Fisheries in the county of Halifax upon (a) the first day of each month, (b) the 15th day of each month, and (c) the 31st day of December in the year 1908.
2.	What was the total amount of pay-roll of the said department in the county of Halifax during each of said months?
3.	How many temporary employees or labourers were engaged or employed in said county between the first day of September and the first day of November, in the said year, 1908?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In reply, I beg to submit the following statement:


John Gillanders Turriff: List of Permanent and Temporary employees in Department of Marine and Fisheries, Halifax County, from January 1 to December 31, 1908.
Ans. to No. 2.	Ans. to No. 1.	Ans. to No. 1.	Month.	Monthly wages.	Permanent.	Temporary.	First day of Month.	Fifteenth day of Month.J anuary	$ cts. 5,504 70	66	84	64	62February... 	5,362 09	66	83	62	63


March ...: 5,672 68	66	85	64	64April	5,642 04	66	85	65	65May	j	5,947 56	66	85	67	69June	6,109 68	67	114	69	94July	6,044 79	67	96	69	74August	6,143 02	67	92	71	71September . 	6,115 19	68	98	72	73October	8,404 80	69	20S	74	118N ovember	7,982 30	69	176	154	118December	8,010 42	69	149	118	10476,939 33	
Total Dec. 31, 1908, 97.
3. Total number of men employed between September 1 and November 1, 1908, 508.



THE VETERANS OF 1866-LAND GRANTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EDWARDS-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	Has the government under consideration the granting of lands to the veterans of 1866?
2.	If so, is it the intention of the government to introduce legislation during the present session for that purpose?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER
(Prime Minister). The government received on Friday last, an important and influential delegation on this question. The question is now engaging our attention.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE-by Mr. Blain-asked:	'
1.	What amounts of money were paid during the years 1906, 1907 and 1908, to W. S. Loggie Company, Limited, in respect of contracts with the Department of Railways and Canals, or the National Transcontinental Railway Commission?
2.	What were the dates, and amount of such payments, respectively, and for what purposes ?
3.	Were all the supplies, or work, for which such payments were made, let by tender, and to the lowest tenderer?
George Perry Graham: 1 & 2.
Year ended December 31, 1906, for
freight claims I. C. R	$197 17
Year ended December 31, 1906, for
ties	 242 01

Year ended December 31, 1907, for freight claims	$ 243 85
1908, for deposits
Year ended December 31,
amounts refunded on ___________
made for sidjngs	t . .. 114 00
Year ended December 31, 1908, for
freight claims, I. C. R	 393 63
Nothing has been paid the W. S. Loggie Co., Limited, by the National Transcontinental Railway Commission.
3.	Ties were purchased at the prices fixed for that season. The price was the same as paid to others.



REVISION OF VOTERS LISTS, PARRY SOUND.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ARTHURS-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	What was the cost of revision of voters'
lists in unorganized townships of Parry Sound district, in 1908, under Dominion Election Act?
2.	How many voters were on lists for such unorganized townships before last revision?
3.	How many names were added and how many removed?
4.	Were there any appeals and how many?
5.	What is the total number of names now on voters' lists for unorganized townships of the said district?
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State):: 1.	$751.41.
2.	The Clerk of Crown in Chancer/ reports that the unorganized list was not furnished, consequently he has no information.
3.	Same as to No 2.
4.	Appeals were before the judges, but the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery has no information with regard thereto.
5.	The total number of voters in the unorganized districts is 2,353.



LOAN OF DECEMBER, 1907.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Perley-asked:
1.	Of the loan of £1,500,000 floated in December, 1907, how much was available for the construction of publio works and similar undertakings?
2.	Of the £3,000,000 raised by loan in February, 1908, what amount was available for public works, &e.?
3.	Of the £5,000,000 raised in June, 1908, at 3J per cent, what amount was available for the construction of publio works, &c. ?
4.	Of the £5,000,000 raised in October, 1908, at 3) per cent, what amount was available for the National Transcontinental Railway and public works?
5.	Of the £6,000,000 raised by loan in January, 1909, how much will be available for public works, and how much will be required to meet outstanding obligations, temporary loans, &c.?
Hnn. WM. PATERSON (for the Minister of Finance).: 

ROSS RIFLE FACTORY BAYONETS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. WORTHINGTON-by Mr. Blain- asked:	[DOT]
1.	Has machinery been installed in the Ross rifle factory for the manufacture of bayonets?
2.	If so, was this machinery manufactured or purchased in Canada?
3.	If not, where was it purchased?
4.	Are the bayonets manufactured entirely in Canada?
5.	If not, what portions are manufactured
elsewhere ?
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia) :: 1.	Yes.
2 & 3. The department has no information on the subject.
4.	Yes.
5.	Answered by No. 4.



COMMUTATIONS OF DEATH PENALTY.

Mr. BEAUPARLANT asked:: 1.	In how many cases each year during the last twenty-five years has the death penalty been commuted in Canada?
2.	In how many cases in each year during the last twenty-five years has capital punishment been carried out?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice) :: 



DEATH SENTENCES COMMUTED OR EXECUTED FROM 1884 TO FEBRUARY, 1909.

[Stage Direction]
Year.	Sen-	Com	Exe-
	fences.	muted, cuted.	
1884	. 11	2	91885	. 19	8	111886	. 8	4	41887	. 6	3	31888	. 11	5	61889	. 2	0	21890	. 12	2	101891	. 4	2	21892	6	3	31S93	6	4	21894	8	3	51895	5	2	31896	4	4	01897.. .*	6	2	41898	11	4	71899	14	3	H1900	8	2	61901	7	4	31902	13	4	91903.. ..	10	5	51904	9	4	51905	8	3	51906	5	3	21907	12	5	71908	14	7	71909	1	0	1Total.. .	. 220	88	132
S.S. 'ANTICOSTI*.
Mr. CROSBY-by Mr. Rhodes-asked :
1.	What amount of work has been done on the steamship ' Anticosti' at Halifax, within the past year?
2.	Were tenders called for the said work? If so, who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender?
3.	W«s any portion of the work done for which tenders were not called? If so, by whom and for what amount?
Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	Work to the value of $5,107.
2.	Yes.
Tenders for hull repairs-
Halifax Graving Rock Company,
Halifax Nova Scotia	$ 4,850 New-Burrell-Johnson Iron Company,
Yarmouth, Nova Scotia	 6,700
Nova Scotia Iron Works, Dartmouth
Nova Scotia	 7,627
A. A. Webber & Son, Dartmouth
Nova Scotia	13,975
Engine repairs-
W. W. Howell & Company, Halifax,
Nova Scotia	 189
New-Burrell-Johnson Iron Company,
Yarmouth, Nova Scotia	 250
Moving diaphone-
Longard Brothers, Halifax	 68
N. Evans, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia 75
The lowest tender was accepted in each case.
3.	No.



POSTMASTER AT ETOBICOKE.

Mr. WALLACE asked:: 1.	Has any appointment been made for postmaster at Etobicoke?
2.	If so, by whom were recommendations made?
3.	What is the salary?	.
4.	Were there any applications for the vacancy? If so, how many?


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIETJX (Postmaster General) :: 1,	2, 3 & 4. An appointment has been made to the postmastership of Etobicoke, rendered vacant by the resignation of the postmaster, the person selected for the position having been recommended by Dr. P. D. McLean, ex-M.P. The salary attaching to the office is $35. Only one application for the position was received at the department.



RURAL MAIL DELIVERY, GREY COUNTY.

Mr. MIDDLEBRO asked :: 1.	Has the government taken any steps towards the establishing of free rural mail de livery between Owen Sound and Balaclava, in the county of Grey? If so, what steps have been taken? If not, why not?
2.	Does the government intend establishing said delivery on said route? If so, when?
3.	What increase, if any, has been made in the estimates for the fiscal year ending March


Allen Bristol Aylesworth: 31, 1910. as compared with the estimates for the preceding year, in consequence of the system of free rural mail delivery announced by the Postmaster General?


Rodolphe Lemieux: 1,	2 & 3. An application for the establishment of a rural mail delivery route between Owen Sound and Balaclava has been received, and is now the subject of inquiry. In connection with the estimates of this department for the fiscal year ending 3lst March, 1910, the amount asked for under the head of ' mail service ' has been increased by $193,000, which increased sum, it is estimated, will be required for extensions to ordinary land service (including rural mail delivery service), railway service and steamboat services.



MILITARY PROPERTIES AT ST. JOHNS, PROVINCE OF QUEBEC.

Mr. MONK asked :: 
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia) :: 1.	The following have each been granted a lease of a portion of the military property at St. Johns, Quebec :
(a)	The corporation of St. Johns. License of occupation, resumable at any time by the Department of Militia and Defence, at a rental of $1 per annum.
(b)	St. Johns Amateur Athletic Association for a term of twenty-one years from December 1, 1907, at a rental of $5 per annum, subject to the following conditions:- The lessee to pay rent and taxes, and to repair and keep up fences; not to cut down timber; not to carry on any business that shall be deemed a nuisance on the premises; not to assign or sublet the leased premises, or any part thereof, without leave in writing from the lessor; to allow the lessor to enter and view state of repair and to repair according to notice; to leave the premises in good repair. The lessor covenants with the lessee for quiet enjoyment; to have right of re-entry on non-payment of rent or non-performance of covenant, and also the right to determine the lease at any time by a demand of possession of the leased premises or any part thereof.
The lease also may be determined by either party giving notice to the other in writing, six months before the expiration, of the first or any subsequent year.

2.	Yes. The application is under consideration.



ST. VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY-MANUFACTURE OF FURNITURE, ETC.

Mr. MONK asked:: 1.	Has any furniture, consisting of seats, tables or benches, been manufactured during the past two years at the penitentiary of St. Vincent de Paul, province of Quebeo?
2.	Has such furniture been sold or otherwise disposed of outside of the said penitentiary?
3.	Have a certain number of pews been so manufactured in said penitentiary for the use of a church in Ottawa? If so, what was the price at which said pews were disposed of?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice):: 1.	Yes.
3.	Yes! $102.87.



PAROLED AND PARDONED PRISONERS-COST OF RETURN.

Mr. FOSTER asked:: 1.	What was the cost of preparing the return in answer to an order of the House for a statement of paroled and pardoned prisoners?
2.	What is the number of pages comprised in the return?
3.	Out of what vote was the cost of the return paid?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice):: 1. $1,100.
2. 686.
3.	From a vote for ' Payment of extra clerks for services rendered in preparation of returns ordered by parliament,' 1907-8, $75, and from vote ' To enable the Department of Justice to defray the expenses in preparing returns re application of convicts for clemency, 1908-9,' $1,025. I might be allowed to add that I was entirely in error in thinking that this payment was made out of the contingencies of the Department of Justice as I did when that item of the estimates was under consideration last week.


Mr. FOSTER.: Also in saying that it was



ICE-BREAKER FOR NORTHUMBERLAND STRAITS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr: FRASER asked:
1.	Has a oontract for a new ioe-breaking steamer for winter navigation of Northumberland straits been awarded to Messrs. Vickers Sons & Maxim, Limited, London, England, or to any one else?
2.	If so, what was the contract price?
3.	On what date was said steamer to be delivered?
4.	Has the government received any information from the contractors that said steamer will be delivered on date specified in contract? If not. when will delivery be made?
5.	How much has been paid to date on said contract ?
Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 

'STANLEY' AND 'MINTO'-OFFICERS AND MEN.

Mr. FRASER asked:: 1.	What are the names and given residences of the officers and engineers of the steamers 'Stanley' and 'Minto?'
2.	What are names and given residences of the sailors, stewards, firemen and other officers and crew of said steamers?



8. When and where was each person shipped or signed articles?
4.	How many men, including officers, are employed on each steamer?
5.	Who engages crews of said steamers and on whose recommendation are they employed?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Names of the officers and engineers of the ' Stanley ' and ' Minto ' are :
' Stanley -Angus Brown, master, G. T. Heighton, 1st officer; I. C. Rhude, 2nd officer; McGregor Fraser, pilot; P. W. Lyon, 1st engineer; Wm. Hislop, 2nd engineer; Edgar Finlayson, 3rd engineer; L. Martin, 4th engineer.
' Minto '-Allan Finlayson, master; John McPherson, 1st officer; W. Sencabough, 2nd officer; Angus Smith, pilot; Joseph Ferguson, 1st engineer; W. H. Clark, 2nd engineer; L. R. Unsworth, 3rd engineer; Alfred Roebuck, 4th engineer.
Particulars of residence of officers and engineers are not on record in the department.
2.	Names of the sailors, stewards and other officers and crew of said steamers are:
' Stanley '-H. R. Cook, operator; D. D. Ryan, purser; Andrew Lavers, checker; Harry Hill, steward; John McCarvill, 2nd steward; W. E. Grimes, waiter; A. Gillis, pantry boy; Maurice Donovan, mess steward; R. Beck, cook; Wallace McDonald, 2nd cook; Edward McDonald, carpenter; Mungo Ferguson, watchman; John Macmillan, quarter master; John Blue, quarter master; Dou-gal Mclsaac, deck hand; Wm. Grant, deck hand; R. Campbell, deck hand; R. Marshall, deck hand; Wm. Poole, deck hand; Gilbert Desroche, deck hand; Zacharie Cormier, deck hand; Dan. Nolan, deck hand; Dan. Falconer, deck hand; James Arbing, oiler; Wm. McFadgen, oiler; James Donovan, oiler; Alex. Stevenson, fireman; Ham-mon Alchorn, fireman; Sam. Martin, fireman; Vincent Mahar, fireman; H, McNeil, fireman; E. Harding, fireman; L. Wood, fireman; Albert Herron, fireman; R. Locke, fireman.
' Minto '-Joseph Maloney, operator; M. C. MacDonald, purser; J. R. Davies, checker; J. T. Lantz, steward; Noah Garnhum, waiter; Harold Arsenault, waiter; Brent Mc-Innis, waiter; Aneas McCormac, mess man; Nicholas Pelly, cook; Aneas Hennesy, assistant cook; John McPherson, carpenter; Sam. Donovan, watchman; John H. Watts, seaman; W. A. McKinnon, seaman; Benj. Graham, seaman; John Moran, seaman; Ham. Bertram, seaman; P. A. McIntyre, seaman; James Roach, seaman; Herbert Anderson, seaman; Frank Trainor, seaman; R. Dooley, seaman; Neil Campbell, seaman; James Currie, seaman; John Dunn, oiler; William Meek, oiler; Albert Feavyer, oiler; Thomas Butler, fireman; Philip Fougere, fireman; Walter Hammel, fireman; John McKenna, fireman; Daniel McEachern, Mr. FRASER.
fireman; Andrew Blaekier, fireman; Bert. Smith, fireman; Charles Thistle, fireman; Daniel Chipman, fireman; Lawrence Lan-gill, fireman.
3.	The crews are signed at Charlottetown and Pictou; the date of signing is not on record in the department.
4.	' Stanley ' 43 ; ' Minto ' 45.
5.	The agent at Charlottetown attends to engaging of the crews and in the case of an officer or engineer the recommendation of the officer commanding the marine service and the approval of the head of the department are necessary.



RAILWAY AID IN ALBERTA.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MCCARTHY-by Mr. Armstrong-asked :
1.	Has the Premier of Alberta, or any member of the provincial government of Alberta, by interview or correspondence, represented to the Minister of Railways, or any member of this government, the desirability of aid being granted by the Dominion Government for the construction of railways in the province of Alberta?
2.	If so, when did such interview take place, between whom, and what was the decision arrived at?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to grant immediate aid for such purpose?
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	The premier and attorney general of Alberta, waited upon the Prime Minister and the Minister of Railways and represented to them the desirability of further federal aid for the construction of railways in that province.
2.	The interview took place some weeks ago.
3.	It is not the intention this year to add to the obligations already incurred in granting aid to railways.



'OPPORTUNITIES IN CANADA.'

[Stage Direction]
Mr. McCARTHY-by Mr. Armstrong-asked :
1.	How many copies of the book intituled 'Opportunities in Canada, 1909' printed by order of the Minister of the Interior, have been published?
2.	How many copies up to date have been distributed and where?
3.	What is the cost of publication and distribution of the same?
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior):: 1.	' Opportunities in Canada ' was not printed by order of the Minister of the Interior. Its publication is a private enterprise, but the Immigration Department believing that it gave useful information about Canada ordered 20,000 copies of the most recent edition for distribution.
2.	15,000 in England and 1,000 in Canada.
3.	16 cents per copy.



EXPENDITURES ON RAMA ROADS AND BRIDGES.

Mr. SAMUEL SHARPE asked :: 1.	Were any public moneys expended upon the roads and bridges of Rama township, in the county of Ontario, during the year 1908? If so, out of what fund were the moneys expended ?
2.	What were the dates of expenditure, amounts and the number of men and teams employed on the work, rates of pay, and who, superintended the expenditure?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior) :: 1.	The sum of $2,000 was voted at the last session of parliament for improvements to roads and bridges in the township of Rama, in the county of Ontario, in which township the Indian lands and those of the whites are intermixed and the roads and bridges are of common benefit. This sum was paid by the Department of Indian Affairs to the treasurer of the municipality of Rama on the 25th September, 1908.
2.	The reeve, clerk and treasurer of the township of Rama have certified to an expenditure of $1,500 for last season; $500 remaining on hand to be expended next season. The work was done under the supervision of the municipal council.



FREE RURAL MAIL DELIVERY.

Mr. ARMSTRONG asked :: What is the total amount paid to mail and stage routes, on which rural free mail delivery is likely to be established?


Rodolphe Lemieux: As rural mail delivery services are only established upon existing stage routes subject to applications therefor being received at the department, it is impossible to estimate what amount mail contractors will receive for .such services, as the department is unable to judge to what extent advantage may be taken by the public of the opportunity of enjoying such services.



IMMIGRANTS REJECTED AND DEPORTED.

Mr. PAQUET asked :: 1.	What is the number of immigrants deported during the fiscal year 1907-8?
2.	What is the number of immigrants who underwent the medical examination at Quebec during the fiscal year 1907-8?
3.	What is the number of immigrants who were deported, after medical examination at Quebec during the same fiscal year?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior) :: 1.	1,172 rejected; 825 deported after landing; total, 1,997.
2.	138,932.
3.	278 rejected after medical examination at Quebec.
22i



COLONIZATION SUBSIDY TO LAKE ST.


Mr. PAQUET asked :: Does the Federal Government still grant, in the interest of colonization and repatriation, an annual subsidy to the Lake St. John Railway Company? If so, what is the amount of that subsidy?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior).: Yes, $8,000.



IMMIGRATION BOUNTIES, 1907-8.

Eugène Paquet: What amount has the government paid as immigration bounty during the fiscal year 1907-8?


Frank Oliver: $140,657.97 made up as follows:
5,976.50 commissions on settlers from United States.
2,412.00 bonuses on children sent out by philanthropic societies.
90,375.99 British bonuses.
41,893.48 continued bonuses.



IMMIGRATION AGENTS IN FRANCE.

[Stage Direction]
"'Mr. PAQUET asked :
1.	Has the government appointed new immigration agents in France since the 1st of January, 1908?
2.	If so, what are the names of these agents, how long have they been employed and what are their salaries?
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the
Interior):
1.	Yes.
2.	J. E. Cyr, appointed October 8, 1908, at $2,000 per annum. Paul Auve, appointed April 7, 1908, at $100 per month for three months. Edouard Montpetit, appointed April 10, 1908, at $60 per month. Leo. Eauclaire, appointed November 30, 1908, at $100 per month for three months.

Mr. PAQUET asked :: 1.	Has the Minister of the Interior lately issued a pamphlet on the province of Quebec? If so, is this pamphlet published in both official languages?
2.	How many copies have been or will be distributed, and where?


Frank Oliver: ,
1.	Yes, 'La Region du Lac Saint Jean, Guides des Colons.' Issued in French only.
2.	26,400 copies printed. These are being distributed among French speaking persons in the United States and in Canada, most of them in answer to letters of inquiry.



IMMIGRATION FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

Eugène Paquet: 1 How many immigrants arrived in Canada during the fiscal year 1907-1908 from each

of the following countries: United States, Great Britain and Ireland, Prance and Belgium ?
2. What was the amount expended in each of those countries during the same year for immigration work?
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the
Interior):
1.-
From the United States	 58,312
From Great Britain and Ireland.. 120,182
From France	 2,671
From Belgium	 1,214
2.-	Approximate.
United States	 $250,000
Great Britain and Ireland	 270,000
France	 20,000
Belgium	 7,000



NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY-LOANS RE CONSTRUCTION EASTERN DIVISION.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Perley-asked:
1.	What sums of money have been raised by way of loans for the purposes described in clause 23 of chapter 71 of Edward VII, 1903?
2.	What rate of interest is payable by the government on each of the sums so raised?
3.	What have been the total interest charges on these sums at these rates up to and inoluding January 1, 1909?
4.	What amount of debentures has been issued by the commissioners and deposited with the Finance Department in respect of advances from the proceeds of said loans?
5.	AVhat has been, up to and ijncluding January 1, 1909, the difference between the sums paid on the moneys borrowed by the government and the interest received on the moneys advanced to the commissioners?
Hon. WM. PATERSON (for Minister of Finance):: 

SAVINGS DEPOSITS AND LOANS, 3 PER CENT OR OVER.

Mr. SAMUEL SHARPE asked:: 1. How much money is on deposit in the Government Savings Department?


Mr. PAQUET.: 2.	AVhat loans, with dates and amounts, negotiated by the government are drawing over 3 per cent per annum, and what are the rates of interest thereon?
3.	AVhat loans carrying over 3 per cent have been borrowed from banks in Canada, from what banks, when these loans will mature, and rates of interest thereon?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (for Minister of Finance):: 

LIVE STOCK KILLED ON RAILAVAYS.

Mr. SAMUEL SHARPE asked:: 1.	How many heads of stock, horses, cattle, igs and sheep, and their value, have been illed on the properties of railway compa
nies in Canada during the past five years?
2.	In view of this destruction, does the government propose to compel the railway companies to adopt a safe and effective cattle-guard ?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	The department has no information.
2.	Provision for proper cattle-guards is covered by the Railway Act, section 254.
6S1



PURCHASE OF LINDSAY BLOCK, OTTAWA.

Mr. MONK asked:: 1.	Is the government negotiating with the T. Lindsay Company, Limited, of Ottawa, for the purchase of its real estate on the corner of Rideau and Sussex streets?
2.	Is the government aware that Senator Belcourt is the president of the T. Lindsay Company, Limited, and that !Mr. Emmanuel Tasse, of Ottawa, is one of the directors?
3.	Is the government aware that Mr. Emmanuel Tass6 is already the ministerial candidate for the city of Ottawa to succeed Sir Wilfrid Laurier as member for Ottawa, and that his candidature is especially encouraged and supported by Senator Belcourt and Mr. Thomas Lindsav, the president and manager of the said company?


Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister):: 1.	The government is not negotiating with the T. Lindsay Company, Limited, of Ottawa, for the purchase of its real estate on the corner of Rideau and Sussex streets.
2.	The government is not aware that Senator Belcourt is president of the said T, Lindsay Company, Limited, nor that Mr. Emmanuel Tasse, of Ottawa, is one of the directors. Moreover, it is not believed that the presence of Messrs. Belcourt and Tasse or absence from the board of directors of the said company is of any concern to the public service.
3.	The government is not aware that Mr. Emmanuel Tasse is the candidate for the city of Ottawa to succeed Sir Wilfrid Laurier, or that his candidature is supported by Senator Belcourt and Mr. Thos. Lindsay.



SUPPLY OF MINIATURE RIFLE TARGETS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. HUGHES-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	Is it the intention of the government to supply miniature rifles, targets and necessary supplies for use at company and rifle association headquarters, for practice in the science of rifle shooting?
2.	Is it the purpose of the government to extend the service above referred to, to universities, colleges, collegiate institutes and sohool cadet corps generally?
['1.\tOn the 17th September, 1908.\n2.\tOn the 18th September, 1908.\n3.\tThe returning officer in his proclamation fixed the 28th October for nomination day and the 16th November for polling day.\n4.\tThe 22nd January, 1909.\n5.\tThe returning officer fixes these dates under section 90 of the Dominion Elections Act.\n6.\tAlfred J. Morris, merchant, Prince Rupert, British Columbia.\n7.\tNot by the Secretary of State or the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, nor, so far as I am aware, by anybody in authority.\n8.\tNo instructions sent by the Secretary of State or by the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, nor, so far as I am aware, by anybody in authority.']
Hon.   S@: 1 and 2. These matters are under consideration, but there is no immediate intention of supplying miniature rifles.



[Stage Direction]
Mr. BURRELL-by Mr. Goodeve-asked:
1.	When was the tenth parliament dissolved?
2.	When was the writ for Comox-Atlin issued in the general elections for the eleventh parliament ?
3.	What date was fixed for the nomination, and what date was fixed for polling day?
4.	On what date was the writ issued for the vacancy in Comox-Atlin?
5.	What date was fixed for nomination and what date for polling day?
6.	Who is the returning officer, and where does he reside?
7.	Was suoh returning officer advised of his appointment by telegram?
8.	Was he by telegram instructed to prepare the proclamation before the writ could reach him? If so, by what minister or official was the communication sent?
Hon. C. MURPHY (Secretary of State):: 1.	On the 17th September, 1908.
2.	On the 18th September, 1908.
3.	The returning officer in his proclamation fixed the 28th October for nomination day and the 16th November for polling day.
4.	The 22nd January, 1909.
5.	The returning officer fixes these dates under section 90 of the Dominion Elections Act.
6.	Alfred J. Morris, merchant, Prince Rupert, British Columbia.
7.	Not by the Secretary of State or the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, nor, so far as I am aware, by anybody in authority.
8.	No instructions sent by the Secretary of State or by the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, nor, so far as I am aware, by anybody in authority.



WATER SUPPLY AT ROYAL MILITARY


[Stage Direction]
Mr. HUGHES-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1.	Whence does the Royal Military College derive its water supply?
2.	Where is the pumping apparatus located?
3.	Has the water been found uniformly pure, or uniformly impure?
4.	What steps are being taken by the government to remedy any defects in the supply ?
5.	Has the ozonization of the water been
considered by the government?
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence):: 1.	The Royal Military College derives its water supply from Lake Ontario at a distance of 460 feet from the lake shore, towards Cedar island.
2.	The pumping apparatus is located on the college grounds.
3.	The water is tested regularly both before and after filtration. The filtered water has been found slightly defective upon one occasion since June last.
4.	To insure absolutely purity of water, the drinking water is now sterilized.
5.	The ozonization of the water has been under careful consideration for some months.


ANNUAL TRAINING OF MILITIA.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. HUGHES-by Mr. Blain-asked:
1. Have plans been completed for the annual training of the militia for the coming summer? If so, what may they be?
[Stage Direction]
2.	What reduction in members is contemplated, if any?
3.	What corps are to he exempted from annual drill and training?
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence):: 1.	2, and 3. City corps will train at local headquarters and rural corps in camps of instruction. All details, however, have not yet been arranged.


UNIVERSITY DRILL CORPS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. HUGHES-by Mr. Blain-asked:
X. Has the government considered the question of establishing corps for military drill, training and target shooting in connection with the various universities throughout Canada?	.
2.	Has the question of the supply of uniforms, arms, equipments, &c., been considered?	.
3.	Would the government furnish caretakers for the arms, stores, &c., for such?
4.	In case one or more regiments were organized in connection with a university, would the government furnish drill sheds and armouries for such?
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence):: 1.	The question of establishing military corps, mostly engineer corps, in connection with the universities of Canada has from time to time been considered.
Dalhousie College, Nova Scotia, Engineer Cadet Company, the Toronto University Section of No. II Field Company, Canadian Engineers, and the McGill and Toronto University Rifle Associations, are cases m point.	.
2.	It has been considered that the existing
regulations regarding active militia organizations and cadet corps organizations sufficiently apply.	,	,
3	and 4. Yes, under the usual conditions.



CAPITAL SUPPLY COMPANY.

["In accordance with the suggestion made by my hon. friend the other day and in line with the observations I then made, I would suggest, if it be agreeable to him, that instead of having one committee we should have a Committee on Fisheries, as agreed to by the House, a Committee on Mines and Minerals and a Committee on Forests and Waters. I think forests and waters should go together. This is so in European countries. In France, for instance, there is a ' De-partement d'Eaux et Forests.' I would suggest that the order stand in the meantime for further consideration.\nOrder allowed to stand."]
Mr. HUGHES.: 


Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State):: The Government has not incorporated such a company, nor is it aware that any such company has been formed.



Mr. GEORGE GORDON asked:: When will the Indian reserve between Sturgeon Falls and North Bay be open for settlement?


Frank Oliver: It is intended to dispose of the land and timber on the surrendered portion of the Nipissing Indian Reserve between Sturgeon Falls and North Bay at as early a date as possible after the completion of the survey, valuation and classification of the lands and timber.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
For a return showing how many hogs have been killed during each month from the 1st of November, 1907, to 1st of November, 1908, inclusive, by the following packing companies: the Laing Pack, and Prov. Co., Ltd., Montreal; the Collingwood Pack. Co., Ltd., Collingwood; the Williams Davis Co., Ltd., Harriston; the George Matthews Co., Ltd., Hull; the George Matthews Co., Ltd., Brantford ; the George Matthews Co., Ltd., Peterborough; the Whyte Packing Co., Ltd., Brantford; the Canadian Packin Co., Ltd., London, and the number of hogs condemned, including intestines, during the same period.- Mr. Beattie.
For a return showing the Ross Rifles, Mark I, and Mark II, or any other description of Ross Rifle, used by the Canadian Rifle Team at Bisley last year in the regular team competition; what Ross rifles, of any description were used in the Bisley competitions, regular or extra matches, by any member of the Canadian Team, or any Canadian marksmen engaging in such matches; with the name of the individual, and if in the employ of the Ross Rifle Company; the description of the rifle, and in what way if differs from the Ross rifle, Mark I and Mark II both as to length of barrel and such expert accessories as wind gauges, globe or ring sites, spirit levels, &c.; if a target rifle or a service rifle and if to be adopted by the government for the Militia; and where this rifle was manufactured in toto.-Mr. Worthington.
For a return showing what states of the United States have been quarantined bv order in council by reason of the prevalence of foot and mouth disease in such states; how many inspectors were appointed by the government to prevent the importation of live stock into Canada from quarantined states: at what points such inspectors were stationed; and what salaries these inspectors were paid.-Mr. Thos. Chisholm.
For a return in detail showing what disposition has been made of the vote of $35,000 to cover the cost of boring for oil, gas, coal, &c., passed on July 15, 1908, with a copy of all correspondence, reports, telegrams, memoran-

da, &c„ connected with the matter giving the district in which the wells were drilled, the cost and present condition of each well, and a copy of all contracts and tenders.-Mr. Armstrong.
For a copy of any order in council authorizing the Canadian Pacific Railway to increase its capital stock.-Mr. W. F. Maclean.
A copy of all orders in council, correspondence and papers, including prospectuses, in relation to the loans negotiated by the Minister of Finance from the 1st of January, 1907, to date?-Mr. Foster.
A return showing all contracts for the carrying of mail, which exnire in the month of April, 1909, that have been renewed without asking for tenders; where the routes are situated, the price paid for carrying the mail, and the name of the carrier, and his place of residence in each case.-Mr. Armstrong.
A return showing the names of the deputy returning officer, poll clerk, scrutineer or agent, or any other officer who acted, res-pectivelv, as such in the several polling subdivisions in the electoral district of Calgary in the recent general election for the House of Commons.-Mr. McCarthy by Mr. R. L. Borden.
A copy of all lists of voters as prepared by the enumerators and completed by the deputy returning officers for the several polling subdivisions in the electoral riding of Calgary, in the province of Alberta, and used in the recent general election for the House of Commons.-Mr. McCarthy by Mr. Roche.
A copy of all applications that have been received for the transfer of villa lots in section 14, township 24, range 1, west of the fifth meridian, and all correspondence in connection therewith since the 10th day of June, 1908.-Mr. McCarthy by Mr. R. L. Borden.
A return showing in detail all moneys received by this government from the sale of land, forest, mines, fisheries and other natural resources of the province of Alberta for the last fiscal year?-Mr. McCarthy by Mr. R. L. Borden.
A return showing what measures, if any, have been taken by the government to lower the waters of Lakes Simcoe and Couchiching; what moneys, if any, have been expended for this purpose, the date of expenditure, and persons superintending the same; the future intention of the government in this direction, for the purpose of reclaiming thousands of acres of first-class arable land.-Mr. S. Sharpe.	j
For a return showing the number of seizures made by the Department of Inland Revenue during the years 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907 and 1908, the date of seizures; by whom seized; what the seizures consisted of; amount realized by the sale of such material seized; and how the seized material was disposed of. -Mr. Barr .

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MEIGHEN-by Mr. R. L. Borden- moved for:
A return showing all surveys made to date in the prosecution of the proposed Hudson Bay railway.
George Perry Graham: The trouble is that
there is nothing to bring down in reply to this motion.


Robert Laird Borden: That makes it a very simple matter.


George Perry Graham: Yes. We have no reports from our surveyors yet.


NATION RIVER DRAINAGE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ANDREW BRODER (Dundas) moved for:
Copy of all correspondence, orders in council, papers and other documents between the government or any member thereof, and any person or persons, referring in any way to the drainage of the Nation river running through the townships of Matilda and Winchester, in the county of Dundas.
He said:-The Nation river has had quite a history with regard to this matter of drainage. That history goes so far back as a considerable time before confederation, when there was a report made on the practicability of bringing the waters from the St. Lawrence river to the Nation river for power purposes. I do not wish to go so far back as that in asking for this correspondence, but I wish to state that previous to the defeat of the Conservative government in 1896, there was an arrangement come to between the people and the government, that if the people would put a dredge in the river the government would work the dredge. That arrangement was carried out for one or two seasons if I remember correctly. The Conservatives were defeated in 1896, and the incoming government carried out the understanding during the balance of that season and part of the following season. The Hon. Mr. Tarte was then Minister of Public Works, and he held the view that the Dominion government had no right to do this work, but he realized the responsibility for carrying out the contract entered into by the previous government, and he went so far as to offer the people a bulk sum as a quittance of the obligation of the government. I am not sure as to the amount mentioned by the Hon. Mr. Tarte of that time, but at all events it was not satisfactory to those who were dredging the river. In answer to the argument that the Dominion government has no right to undertake such work, I might say that the necessity now for draining the river is greater than it was at any time before, because as the country is being cleared the water get3 so rapidly into the river that it overflows its banks and destroys the crops. This takes the question beyond the local standpoint. It has got to be a very serious matter for the people. I may say that the present government have seen fit, for local drainage purposes, to deal with rivers of a similar nature. They have in the county of Prescott, dealing virtually with the same river, laid out quite a large amount of
[Stage Direction]
money at a place called Pitchoff. On the Chateauguay river, in the province of Quebec, in the county of Chateauguay, in the vicinity of St. Chrysostom, the government have laid out, purely for drainage purposes, some $12,000 or $15,000 ; and I think there is an obligation resting on the government to carry out the contract between the previous government and the people with reference to the Nation river. There is no question as to that, because the dredge is there which was built by the people assisted by the Ontario government at that time, as a proof of the contract. The Ontario government assisted by giving $4,000 towards the cost of the dredge. There is no question as to the understanding that was arrived at. The people have expended between $70,000 and $80,000 on that river. The engineers at that time considered that, if the river were enlarged, that would to a very considerable extent relieve the people of the difficulty; but the conditions have so changed that the relief is a very nominal thing to-day. I simply bring the matter to the attention of the government in the hope that they will deal with it on its merits and in accordance with the obligations resting on the government.
George Perry Graham: My hon. friend and myself, from force of circumstances, perhaps know more about the situation of this river than most of the other members of the House. This is a matter which has been before the public, and in which the public in that part of the country have been particularly interested, for, I suppose, twenty-five or thirty years. I had the honour of being a member of the counties' council of the united counties of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry when seme of the practical work in connection with it was undertaken, and I realize what my hon. friend says about the interest taken in that part of the country in the matter. The more the country has been opened up and drained into the Nation river, the more need there has been to get the water away. It is a comparatively small stream at low water, but it contains ledges which high water cause rapids, and the object of the work done has been to remove these ledges and so improve the flow of the water. At certain times the Nation becomes a violent stream, with the water so high that at some places it forms a lake a mile wide, flooding the land in the vicinity, so that sometimes the people are obliged to transfer mails and passengers across the lake by boats. The harm done by the flooding of this river is very great. A great deal of work has been done on it, and just what ought to be done now is a question for consideration. The provincial government has granted some Mr. BRODER.	[DOT]
aid, the Dominion government has also
granted aid in days gone by, and the people have taxed themselves very heavily. It is a matter not purely local, as it is quite wide in its scope. I support the resolution for bringing down the papers in order that the House may see in just what position the matter is.


Mr. BRODER.: I would suggest that the return be made from the year 1894.
Motion, amended as suggested, agreed to. COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES.
On the order:
Resuming the adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of Mr. Borden, that in the opinion of this House it is advisable to appoint a select standing committee on natural resources, who shall have authority to inquire into and consider and report upon all matters appertaining to the conservation and development of the natural resources of Canada, including fisheries, forests, mines, minerals, waterways, and water-powers, and to whom may he referred from time to .time any report, document or matter touching the subject which they are appointed to consider.


Wilfrid Laurier: In accordance with the suggestion made by my hon. friend the other day and in line with the observations I then made, I would suggest, if it be agreeable to him, that instead of having one committee we should have a Committee on Fisheries, as agreed to by the House, a Committee on Mines and Minerals and a Committee on Forests and Waters. I think forests and waters should go together. This is so in European countries. In France, for instance, there is a ' De-partement d'Eaux et Forests.' I would suggest that the order stand in the meantime for further consideration.
Order allowed to stand.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Archives $28,000.
['Minor Bills, first, then the Civil Service resolutions, and after that Supply.']
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: This is the usual vote except that it has been reduced by the amount transferred to the civil government. The amount transferred is $32,000. The civil vote is increased to that extent and the vote for Archives reduced. The work in the branch is carried on the same as heretofore.


Eugène Paquet: (Translation.) Who are the scholars engaged presently by the government in the archives at Paris?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) We have several clerks doing the transcription of the records in the Bibliotheque Nationale in France. These are not scholars, but young men entrusted with this work.


Eugène Paquet: (Translation.) What is the nature of the work done by the Abbe O'Leary, former professor of history?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) He does not work in Paris but in Canada, and he is busy making researches for collecting the historical documents scattered pretty near all over the province of Quebec, and having some bearing on our history. The work he does is under the supervision of Dr. Doughty, in order that we may be able to locate those historical documents.


Mr. J. D. REID.: As I understand, in the archives department, the salaries at Ottawa last year amounted to $23,721.54. There were no others outside of the staff at Ottawa who were transferred so that if the vote has been decreased $32,000, that is more than the Auditor General's Report shows was paid altogether for salaries. The page in the Auditor General's Report is D-8.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: When I was going through the civil government items of the Agriculture Department, I gave the exact figures of the reduction in the Archives.


John Dowsley Reid: I see, at the page I refer to, which says ' Salaries at Ottawa, $23,721.54.'


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not with me at the moment the list of those transferred to civil government with their salaries. I had that when the committee was considering the civil government items the other day. But I stated that the salaries, as a matter of fact came to $28,212, which was the amount given me by my officers. We have reduced $32,000. What the other reduction is due to is not shown in the notes I have before me. My deputy will be here in a few minutes and I can get the information from him.


John Dowsley Reid: Better let the item stand until we get the information.


Eugène Paquet: (L'Islet.) (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, allow me to make a few remarks about our archives. It is with pleasure that I grant the amount of $28,000 here asked for by the Minister of Agriculture to keep up the work of our archives. The literate people stand in with the hon. Minister of Agriculture and encourage him in his patriotic and historical work. We are proud of the record of our country and we must make ourselves familiar with it. What has been done so far stimulates the writers on our history.
By order in council dated April 17, 1907, the Minister of Agriculture has instituted a commission on historical documents. He was most fortunate in his selection of such men as the reverend Abbe Gosselin and Mr. Edmond Roy for the pursuance of such work in our province. It is important that an intelligent classification of our written records should be made in order that they
may be more easily got at by those desirous of studying them. I am pleased to quote among the students in that branch of our archives the reverend Abbe O'Leary, my old professor in history at the Seminary of Quebec. In the last fifty years, Mr. G. B. Faribault, the Abbe Tanguay, the Abbe Verreault and Mr. Joseph Marmette have been in Paris to make researches in the archives there and made very precious discoveries in the way of documents of the highest importance. Those who are working in the French archives under the direction of the Minister of Agriculture are performing a national work.
According to the report of the Minister of Agriculture, students in our history are also getting useful information in the archives in London. The last documents which have been added to the national collection give valuable knowledge on the maritime provinces. Let us keep up these historical searches. Let us be proud of our archives, they are the depository of our national traditions.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) I am happy to hear the observations which the hon. member for L'Islet (Mr. Paquet) has just made. I feel proud over them and I want to thank him most heartily for the good words he spoke in favour of the work performed for our archives. He was quite right in saying that it is necessary that our Canadian records should be preserved. I am pleased to be able to tell him that we have lately erected in Ottawa a fireproof building, a most suitable building, in fact a fine building where they are now deposited. Considerable work was performed in the Bibliotlifeque Nationale of Paris in searching for and sorting documents relating to Canadian history. Messrs. Marmette, Richard and others have gathered such an amount of them that we have been so far unable to have them all copied over, but that part of the work is just now being pressed with all possible celerity.
We have engaged the services of Mr. Big-gar, well known in Canada for his historical researches and studies. This gentleman is now engaged in pursuing this work in Europe, that is in Paris and London. He understands French as well as English. His researches are not confined to Paris alone, but are spread over Spain, Italy and Britain. He is superintending that part of the work in Paris. I should like very much to further press the copying over of those records, but it is not in our power to do so. It is somewhat difficult to get competent men to do this work. In England, we have clerks who are performing this task, and we are carrying on the work of transcription as fast as we possibly can. When I took up my department, Canada was providing $6,000 a year for the archives, but

having found out that there was much more to do in that direction, I am pleased to say that parliament has always voted the increased appropriations which I asked from time to time for the archives. I may say at the same time that those increases were always voted without hesitation not only by the party in power but by the opposition as well. I hope that I shall have in the future the same encouragement that was shown me in the past for the work of the archives. I also hope that under the supervision of Dr. Doughty, a very competent and devoted official, I might say a most enthusiastic official in the pursuance of his duties, all this work will be pressed forward with vigour and to still more satisfactory results.


Mr.  F. D.@: MONK (Jacques-Cartier.) (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I want to say that we are very much satisfied indeed of the declarations which have just been made by the hon. minister in answer to the remarks offered by my hon. friend from L'Islet (Mr. Paquet). My hon. friend from L'Islet has stated a point to which great importance is added in the province of Quebec, and I believe no other province in the Dominion is as anxious as ours**that the national records should be carefully looked after and properly stored. All of us, my hon. friend from L'lslet, the hon. minister and myself have those records at heart. I am glad the hon. minister has seen fit to do justice to the opposition in acknowledging that we never refused to grant him the sums required for the proper keeping of our records. This seems to surprise him somewhat, but experience must have taught him of old that when the government wants money for legitimate purposes and for the benefit of the public, the opposition never refused its sanction.
We have in Mr. Doughty a gentleman of such consummate competency it would be almost impossible to get a better on than he, and I think we should carry out all the suggestions which might come from him.
Now to come down to practical business, I would like the minister to tell us how he intends spending the $28,000 here asked for. I see that $60,000 were spent in the fiscal year 1908-09. This item is reduced to $28,000 this year. It is not customary for us to complain of any diminution, especially in the present condition of affairs. I believe, on the contrary, that we may congratulate the government for the excursions it may attempt in the field of economy. But we are interested in knowing how such retrenchments are arrived at as compared with the sums expended last year. What does the department intend spending for the archives in France? What staff do we employ just now for the gathering of records ? I know Mr. Biggar by reputation ; I believe he deserves all the good that is said of him. Is he alone engaged in col-Mr. FISHER.
lecting archives in France? I heard the minister say awhile ago that it was hard to get clerical help in France. Are the copies which we intend obtaining for our archives to be made in the national libraries or from documents held by private families whose records are connected with the history of our country ? I believe we can gather at a very low cost in French, all the documents we require, provided we take the necessary precautions.
I would be thankful to the minister for telling us how he will proceed in the course of the coming year to collect copies of those immense books of records which are actually held in France? What proportion of the money which we vote annually will be devoted to this task in the coming year ? There is no doubt that we can secure large returns in employing for that work nobody but absolutely competent men. It is pretty much the same as this in immigration work, but not as much as in the archives. It is possible to employ in immigration work a whole lot of people as was done in the past, to recruit settlers and spend large sums of money worthlessly. I think the hon. minister ought to tell us what he purposes doing with this $28,000 both in France and England in the course of the coming year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, nobody else but Mr. Biggar worked at the collection of those records in France. We already have a large number of documents selected and laid by in the Bibliotheque Nation-ale, in Paris. We want to have them copied before selecting more, not because it wouldn't be worth our while to press further our researches in that direction, but because we have sufficient records already awaiting transcription. In the meanwhile, Mr. Biggar keeps up his researches in different parts of France, in the private libraries of historical mansions and elsewhere from which he obtained lists of documents that are probably of some interest to Canada. Mr. Biggar takes these matters upon himself and when he comes across documents which bear upon our history, he has the power to have them copied, inasmuch as we cannot get them in Canada. I do not see that I can give more information upon the work that is being carried out in France.


Mr. MONK.: (Translation.) Do the same remarks of the hon. gentleman apply to the work carried on in England? Did Mr. Biggar first made a selection of the documents that are to be copied in England? Do we employ clerical help there in doing the transcription?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) It is the same in England as in France.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) Now, is the whole of these $28,000 to be affected to this work?

Mr. FI$HER. (Translation.) Oh, no.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) How then is this item applied?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) Besides Mr. Biggar's salary, $7,000 is provided for researches conducted in Europe under Mr. Biggar's care, then there is the messenger's salary, and certain office work at the archives here, $2,000 There is the salaries of the employees outside of Ottawa and who do not belong to the Civil Service, $2,000. Transcription to be made in Canada, $4,000. Purchase of books, newspapers, &c., $3,500. Printing, $5,000. Expenses by the commission on messengers, $500. And $1,000 for sundry expenses.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) The amount of $4,000 for transcription in Canada seems to me pretty high. What documents are there to copy? Are they documents belonging to private collections?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) Most of those historical documents, if not all, are held in the court houses at Montreal, Quebec and Three Rivers. Quite a number of them are also to be found at the provotship in Quebec. Others are to be found elsewhere. This sum provides for the transcription of these documents.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) I do not want to keep up unduly the discussion upon an item which is not opposed, but it seems to me that the sum which we affect to transcription of documents held in Canada, is higher than should be in relation to the results obtained. It might be that the returns are commensurate to the amount of money spent, but I doubt it. I believe that for a young nation like us, whose records are so extensive and which desires to extend the lasting work of its national history, we appropriate a sum of money rather inadequate to the task.
In reviewing the budget, I could easily find a great number of items which are extremely high and which are devoted to purposes less interesting, less urgent than the keeping of our archives. On this subject I may say that we, on the opposition side, will ever be ready to grant all items asked by the government, even if the amount was higher than this one, provided that it would be clearly stated what use it is intended for. If they are deserving and free of all waste, if practically, they would increase the volume of our national archives, they will receive our cordial support.
There is presently, in England and in France as in Canada, number of papers which are in danger of being lossed, and it is necessary that we should have in the administration of this department-which is much more important than we believe-men in every way able to keep them. We will always be willing to vote the moneys necessary for this object. I must say before resuming, that the hon. minister has made since a few years most commendable efforts, for the preserving of our archives.


John Dowsley Reid: I see that Professor Adam Shortt received $1,675. He received $1,500 for editing constitutional documents. Is Professor Shortt employed by the year to do that or was it simply a contract?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Professor Shortt was not employed by the year. This is work of an exceptional character, requiring a man of exceptional attainments. There was no question about Professor Shortt's qualifications for the work, and an arrangement was made with him that he should do it and we should pay him accordingly.


John Dowsley Reid: In what way?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He sent in an account which on careful examination was considered to be fair and just and reasonable, and we paid it.


John Dowsley Reid: Was it by the day or just a lump sum?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Just a lump sum. He did this at odd times during almost three years.


John Dowsley Reid: I see that during the same time Professor Shortt received $2,500 from the Labour Department for acting in connection with labour disputes.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think all of this work was performed before he acted in the labour disputes.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What is the salary paid to the archivist?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: $3,200 a year.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Has he an assistant?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, he has no assistant archivist. Mr. Edmor Roy is the next official in the archives branch, but he has not been called assistant archivist.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It seems to me that Mr. Doughty's position and qualifications are sufficiently important to place him upon the same footing as the deputy head of a department. His work requires very important qualifications and Dr. Doughty possesses them in an eminent degree. He has no assistant and is called upon to bring into life a new department. I think the House would be quite ready to vote him a larger salary than that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am very glad to hear my hon. friend say that. Dr. Doughty is now in the Civil Service and is subject of course to the Civil Service rules, like the heads of other branches. I do not think a department ought to be created unless there is a considerable amount of administration and detail work which there is not in that case.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I did not advocate making a department; I submitted that the duties

are sufficiently important and require high enough qualifications to justify Dr. Doughty being placed on about the same footing as the deputy head of a department.


John Dowsley Reid: I asked the minister about the $32,000 reduction in salaries?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In the first place I am informed that Mr. Roy's salary of $3,000 was not included in the Auditor General's Report. He was appointed since it was prepared, in March of last year.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the whole Archives branch now subject to the new Civil Service Act?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: So that in future persons who are employed in that department will be recommended by the Civil Service Commissioners?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: I am very glad of that, and I join in what my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) has said with regard to Dr. Doughty's qualifications, which in my opinion are of a very eminent order; I feel that the country would be placed in a very unfortunate position if we should lose his services. As far as I am concerned I would be very glad indeed to support the government in placing his salary upon a better basis than it is at present, because I know how extremely assiduous he has been in the work in which he is engaged. It is more than a mere matter of duty with him, it is not only a duty but a pleasure, the work of his life, and from personal observation of the work which he is performing, I have formed a very high appreciation of the services he has rendered the country since he has been placed at the head of the Archives department.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think that anyone in or out of the government appreciates or understands Dr. Doughty's work more than I do. I take a good deal of credit to myself for having got Dr. Doughty to become the Archivist, and I understand and fully appreciate not only the quality of his work but his personal character and devotion to that work which is of a very peculiar character, and which there are not many men qualified to perform. I know of no one in Canada as well qualified as Dr. Doughty.


John Dowsley Reid: The minister has not yet explained the $32,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The Auditor General's Report does not show the salary of Mr. Roy of $3,000 and another of $1,000 or $1,200. That is in addition to the $28,000 of salaries which are transferred from payments from the Archives branch to the civil government. Dr. Doughty made out an estimate of what he required this year and the esti-Mr. MONK.	,
mate came to less than $28,000. He asked for that $28,000 to carry on work outside of the work provided for by the salaries. $28,000 has been transferred to civil government and there is $28,000 of work to be done outside of this out of the vote to Archives.
Patent Record, $17,000.


John Dowsley Reid: That is paid almost entirely to the King's Printer ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Altogether.
Census and statistics, $11,500.


John Dowsley Reid: There is a decrease.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is a transfer of $28,850 of salaries to civil government, but I have asked for $5,000 more for other work of the census and statistics branch. If it had not been for asking for that $5,000 more the vote would have been reduced by $6,500. I have asked for $5,000 additional to be applied to the work of issuing monthly crop bulletins, which we undertook last summer, and hope to continue.


John Dowsley Reid: That will be spent for salaries?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, that is outside work. None of this vote will be spent for salaries in Ottawa, but it will be required for printing, correspondence and the expense of getting out these crop statistics.


Mr. BLAIN.: What is the total cost of the Census Department each year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The total cost for the coming year will be $28,450 in salaries under civil government, and $11,500, which brings the total to $40,000 in round figures.


Richard Blain: Will that be an increase over last year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: An increase of $5,000.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many civil servants are engaged in the department?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Twenty-nine in Ottawa.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has there been a material increase in the last few years?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, not material. Of course in the census years there were many more, but since the compilation and completion of the last decennial census they have not been increased practically at all. I will not say there has not been one or two added at some time or other, but practically there has been no increase.


Mr. STAPLES.: I would like to ask the minister to explain the system adopted in collecting these -crop statistics.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The system has been practically this: We have tried to find farmers throughout the country, who have shown by some correspondence or connection with the department with other work, that

they are men of intelligence and take an interest in the agricultural work of their particular sections. These have been communicated with and asked to send in perio-u rePor^s' which they do by mail, and are ^en made up into the estimates which these bulletins contain. We do not pay these correspondents anything. We expect them to do it, and we, in return, give them the advantage of sending bulletins to them and any other information from the department which they wish to have.


Mr. ROCHE.: Is not that a duplication of the work carried on by the various provincial governments?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Some of the provincial governments do that kind of work, but there is no such work done generally for the whole of Canada. We do make use of the bulletins and reports that the provinces issue for the purpose of checking these statistics, but that work, being done only by some provinces, does not give the results for the whole Dominion which we require to have.


William D. Staples: Are these bulletins issued weekly or monthly?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Monthly.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: May I ask the minister if it is not possible for him to gather together a greater volume of statistics in regard to the trade of foreign countries? During the past few years we have been urging upon the minister the necessity of enlarging the statistics in that regard and giving us seme comparisons between Canada and other countries similarly situated, the Argentine Republic, for instance, or some other foreign countries. I know it would require some research, but I cannot help feeling that we are not in touch with the statistics regarding the trade and commerce of these countries to the extent that we should be. I know that the department have improved somewhat in that regard in the last few years, but I would like to urge upon the minister the necessity of making further investigation and trying to bring down a more complete statement with regard to the trade and commerce of different countries, especially with regard to the exports and imports of products such as we produce from our own farms, mines and timber areas.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can understand the value of such information and the convenience of having it. But, we would simply have to go to the same documents that are now available to any individual. We might, of course, compile them and work them up into different forms of comparative tables. But I may say to my hon. friend quite frankly, that we have so much more to do in regard to our own statistics than we have been able to do, that I have hesitated
to turn the labours of my own staff, or the money which is voted by parliament for this purpose, to the compilation of statistics outside of Canada. I have in my mind much that we might do in Canada in the way of getting statistics which we have not yet done and which I would like to see done and that is one reason why, in this work, I am asking for $5,000 more than I did last year. It is to try and increase the amount of information to be given out and made available for our own people about our own work. I think it would be better to spend the money and devote our time and energies to our own work than to foreign work which is done in each country for itself and the results of which are largely available in the library for those who wish to study them.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I quite agree with the minister in regard to this information being available in the library and that is why I cannot understand why it would not be comparatively easy to gather these statistics together. If they can be gathered without a great deal of effort out of books in the library, the people in Canada who are desirous of getting in touch with these statistics not being able to come to Ottawa and investigate for themselves, would be put in possession of this information. It would be a source of interest to our people in general to have this information to a greater extent than they have at the present time.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to ascertain from the minister whether or not the annual statistics compiled with respect to some of our own matters should not be made a little more complete and should not be made to conform more to the information that is set forth in the decennial census returns. I have not made any careful examination of the yearly statistics that are produced in the Census Department as compared with the results of the decennial census of 1901 except in one respect, and that was to endeavour to obtain from the last statistical report respecting lumber such information as would enable me to ascertain whether or not the lumber cut in various particulars had increased and to what extent, since 1901. I found that they did not seem to run on the same lines. There was not the same division of production. Could not that be accomplished? For example, in the census of 1901 there are returns for so much sawn lumber, so many cubic feet of timber, so many cords of wood for fuel, so many railway ties, but when we come to ' Census and Statistics Bulletin No. 2, issued at Ottawa, 1907,' I do not get information of the same character as is contained in the census with reference to the lumber industry, and it is, therefore, impossible to make a comparison.
1 may add that upon application to the officers of the Census Department I received every possible assistance and all the in-

formation they had in their possession, and what I say is not by way of censuring them in any way, but for the purpose of ascertaining whether a better method cannot be devised. Possibly this particular information may appertain more properly to the Forestry Branch of the Department of the Interior when that is placed in good working order. From the yearly reports of the United States you can ascertain practically all the information about the production of lumber that you would obtain in the decennial census. In the Forestry Eeport of the United States for 1906 it is stated that they had obtained returns from about 12,000 mills in the United States with regard to sawn lumber. If the information published in our bulletins could be systematized a little better it would be much more valuable.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that there is about the same difference between the information in the American decennial census and their yearly reports as there is in our publications. The blue book which the hon. gentleman refers to gives the return of manufactured lumber and not what might, be called crude lumber cut in the forest. I quite agree that it is best to make the figures as nearly similar in character as possible in all our publications so as to enable comparison. I will discuss the matter with the chief statistician.


Robert Laird Borden: This bulletin gives the number of establishments, the capital, the number of employees, the wages for labour,, and the value of the product, but it does not give the quantity of the product. I know that you can obtain from the forestry service of the United States all the information respecting the annual production that you get in their decennial census.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am very glad to have suggestions of that kind because they will all help to perfect the various bulletins which we issue.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I have in my hand a bulletin entitled ' Census and Statistics, Monthly, No. 7, Vol. 2, January, 1907, published by authority of the Minister of Agriculture,' and I suppose this report is issued by Mr. Archibald Blue. I think sufficient care is not taken in the preparation of statistics with a view of their absolute correctness so as to make them of practical value. For instance, in this bulletin I find it stated that the average wage for farm help in Canada is $24.60 per month for males and $13.50 for females, but it is not stated whether that wage includes board and lodging. Perhaps the minister can say what the intention was.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The statement ought to have been made in that table that those wages were in addition to board and lodging in these cases.


Robert Laird Borden: 


David Henderson: That certainly should be stated.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I agree with you.


John Barr: The idea conveyed by the bulletin is that the wages are paid to that extent during the whole twelve months of the year, whereas they are not paid for more than six or eight months. That is misleading to people wishing to come to this country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot offhand answer the question; I shall have to look into the matter and see. Of course, wages do vary at different seasons of the year; but I took it that when they were put down in the bulletin as being so much a month, that meant the average of the year.


David Henderson: The wages as given in this bulletin are both the monthly and the yearly wages for males for the whole of Canada, namely, $24.60 a month or by the year $209, which would practically be $17.50 a month. I apprehend that $24.60 would only apply to certain months of the year. The danger of this report is that no doubt some copies of it will go to the old country and people coming to this country and relying upon it will be surprised. If, as the minister says, the board and lodging are included, I think it is unfair to Canada to place in the hands of the people in the old country statements that do not convey the full information they might reasonably expect. I think the hon. member for Dufferin is correct, that the wages per month applies only to say six months of the year.


Mr. W. WRIGHT.: The figures which purport to give the rates of wages for farm hands and female servants, leaving out of consideration board and lodging, are very misleading. It is well known that all over the country farm hands and domestic servants get their board and lodging, and these are always taken into consideration in fixing wages. In the future compilation of these figures, I think it would be well to give the wages for six months in summer and the wages for six months in winter. This would convey a more accurate idea to the general public and those interested, and the fact that board and lodging are taken into consideration should be distinctly stated in publications bearing the stamp of the Minister of Agriculture.


Mr. SAMUEL SHARPE.: In the Auditor General's Report, page E 9, I find this item: ' Amounts paid secretary treasurers of municipalities for lists of farmers, $1,074.74.' Did the minister send for lists to the secretary treasurers of all the municipalities, or were some favoured above others ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that when the lists of farmers were being made up, the

secretary treasurers of municipalities were in many cases asked to supply lists. That was done only in Quebec and the maritime provinces, as we had the information for the other provinces.


John Barr: How did you obtain that information for the other provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We got it from the provincial governments.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Why could you not utilize the voters' lists in the different municipalities ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The voters' lists do not show who are farmers.


John Barr: Why could you not get the lists for Quebec and the maritime provinces as well as Ontario ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The provincial governments in those provinces had no lists.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: What would be the nature of the prosecutions in regard to the census ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think they were for the refusal by some persons to give the information required by the Census Act.
Statistical Year Book, $6,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The subject of our Statistical Year-book is one which has been discussed every year for many years past. Ours is the most miserable Year-book published by any country, bar none. It is a wretched Year-book. Perhaps my hon. friend the minister will remember that several years ago we had a very long discussion in this House, in which the subject was threshed out completely. A member from Nova Scotia, Mr. Ross, who is now in the Senate, brought in all the year-books published by all the great British dependencies, and compared them, in regard to the printing, the forms, the manner in which they were prepared, with our own. In the year-books prepared in Australia and New Zealand, the information is carefully classified, and is given in a very pleasing form, which attracts the eye of the strang-eri Our Year-book lacks all these elements It is as dry as the Public Accounts Blue-book
There is nothing grouped in it in such a manner as to attract attention. That is a defect which we ought to remove. $5,000 or $6,000 additional is nothing. We spend immense sums to attract immigrants. We make folders, we encourage newspapers, political friends of the government, to the tune of from $50,000 to $100,000 to publish absurd, useless information and we do not seem to be able, although this matter has been frequently discussed and criticised and protested against, to produce a good Yearbook. Here is another point. Our Yearbook is published very) late. The one last
published is that of 1907. We ought to have our Year-book of the last year published at the very beginning of the new year, and surely it is possible to have a staff sufficient and competent to collect all the information and have it published at, the beginning of the year. Compare our Year-book with that of New Zealand. The latter has maps of the different parts of that country and photographs, and is a book which you could send to any one who desires information about that country. You cannot publish a proper book for $6,000-such a book as could be circulated in our schools and abroad. It is about time we made a new start in this matter, it is essential that a young growing country like ours, about which information is sought on all sides and by all classes of people, should publish a complete and interesting information on our possibilities and resources. Other countries take a pride in publishing Year-books infinitely superior to ours. What we are publishing is simply a waste of money.


John Barr: If we go back four or five years, we find that the Year-book now published is not equal to what was then published. We then had the returns of other countries and a lot of other valuable information not given in the present publication. We either should publish a Year-book which we will not be ashamed to send out to those desiring information or not publish one at all. Would the Minister of Agriculture inform us how many were published in 1907 and when we may expect to get the Year-book of 1908?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not at all convinced by my hon. friends of the advisability of doing what they suggest. Years ago our Year-book was increasing in bulk to such an extent as to contain a good deal of duplication of tables and a great deal of information about foreign countries not at all necessary for our purposes. My hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) say3 rightly that New Zealand published a very attractive pictorial volume, very much of the nature of a picture book, but I do not think that is what we ought to expect in a statistical year-book. And I know that the Commonwealth of Australia to-day has discarded that type of work and is now issuing a book of the same character as our own. The Year-books of European governments are of the same character as ours. They do not go into long descriptive accounts of the country, and voluminous dissertations on its industries. Such things are out of place in a statistical year-book. Such a book ought only to contain statistical information compiled so as to be available to the student who wants accurate information of that kind. That I think, we have accomplished. I do not think that the Canadian Year-book ought to be expected to contain information about other countries. That

information can be found in the Year-books of these countries.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: Every one has not the opportunity of having access to the Yearbook of other countries. A good deal of the information contained in former Year-books, which has been left out of the present edition, was of great) convenience to students and others.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If I were to adopt that suggestion. I would have to load down our Year-book to such an extent that it would be a volume no one would want to handle.


Uriah Wilson: That was not the case in the past.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Our Year-book in 1896-1897 was a very bulky volume.


Uriah Wilson: A great deal better that the present one.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think so for the purpose for which it is printed. It may have had reading matter for people who want this class of reading, but it was not a useful and complete volume of statistical tables concerning our own country. I am sorry if hon. gentlemen do not agree with me in that. But my judgment in the matter was formed after a good deal of hesitation. And I find my opinion in accord with the practice of older countries in Europe and of the United States as well, for they issue year-books of the same character as ours. And, while Australia in days gone by, did as the hon. member for Jacques Cartier has explained, it has come round to our view, and to-day the latest Yearbook from Australia is compiled and printed exactly on the line of our own. New Zealand, I think, issues such a year-book as was formerly issued, but I think I am safe in saying that it is the only country that does so. This seems to be confirmation of our judgment and practice in making our Year-book what it is.


Eugène Paquet: (Translation.) May I request that the Minister will make every possible effort to let us have as soon as possible the French edition of the Year Book. I will take advantage of the opportunity to request that he will also hasten the publication of the French copy of the report on Co-operative Associations.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: (Translation.) The last mentioned volume is under the control of the Minister of Labour. I shall, however, take care that the request of the hon. member for L'Islet is duly transmitted to him.
As for the Canadian Statistical Year Book, I may say that I have endeavoured to have the English and French copies sent to the Printing Bureau on the same day. In my Department I have issued instructions that all bulletins and reports are to Mr. FISHER.
be translated without delay and the English and French copies forwarded to the printer at the same time. It was found impossible to do this immediately, but I will endeavour to have the order carried out in the future.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I asked my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) a question which, I think, he has not answered. How is it that our Yearbook comes out so late ? The last Yearbook out, I think, is the one of 1907. That is a year behind. Why cannot we have the Year-book at the beginning of the year, giving the results of the year just closed? If the minister holds that the Year-book should only give statistics alone, with nothing to please the eye, no maps, nothing which we saw in the Year-books from other countries displayed on the table, why should it take a year to produce it? Why cannot we have it as promptly as other statistical compilations?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Monk) knows that the Year-book is compiled from the reports of the different departments and statistical reports. It takes a little time to compile the figures after these reports are out.


Mr. GEORGE TAYLOR.: Some time ago 1 received a letter from one of my constituents asking me to ascertain the quantity of mica produced in Canada and the quantity exported. I sent the letter to the Department of Customs and received an answer from the commissioner giving me the quantity exported, but explaining that he could not give me the information as to the quantity produced in the country. I had a copy of the Year-book lying on my desk, and, opening it, I saw the heading:^ ' Mineral products by quantity and value.' So I sent my corespondent the Year-book. Meeting him on the street the other day I asked him if he had received it, and he said that he had, but that it gave him no information. He said it showed the quantity produced in 1901. But what is the use of publishing in 1908 the figures for 1901? Any other information that it had he had already received in the Trade and Commerce and other returns. If we are to have a Year-book, and if we are to have a bureau and a staff charged with the duty of compiling information for the use of the public, what is the good of republishing information from the census of 1901? We ought to have in the department information as to the products of mines right up to date and not only information eight years old. The gentleman who asked the information of me is a manufacturer in Gananoque, but he found that the Year-book gave him nothing but information which he already had.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I speak subject to correction, but I think that if the gentleman had looked over other pages of the book he would have found information from the

Mines branch giving later information. The last authentic returns are those of the census of 1901, and they are put into the Yearbook for that reason. But the Mines branch makes estimates and has returns every year, and I think I am right in saying that my hon. friend would have found compilation of these figures in the Year-book as well as that which he did find.


Robert Laird Borden: Would not the reports of the Mines Departments of the various provincial governments give the information pretty well up to date?


Mr. SEAEEY.: I had the pleasure of presenting the recently published Year-book to the representative of a large financial institution in London, and, after looking it over for a time, he said that in the course of his business he became somewhat familiar with the Year-books of many countries, and the Canadian Year-book furnished the greatest information in the shortest and most convenient shape of any that he had seen.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Civil Service Commission, salaries, $30,575.


Charles Murphy: These estimates were before the House on a former occasion, and at the request of the Prime Minister were allowed to stand in order that certain corrections might be made. The salary of the secretary appears in the estimates as $3,050; this should be $2,900.


John Dowsley Reid: In addition to admitting candidates to the Civil Service, does the Civil Service Commission control promotions in the different departments ?


Charles Murphy: There is a difference between appointment and promotion. The deputy head of a department recommends the promotion and the commission must grant their certificate approving of the promotion before it can be made.


John Dowsley Reid: The commission must accept the deputy's recommendation ?


William Paterson: No, they are not bound to accept it.


John Dowsley Reid: They examine the candidate before granting the certificate.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think they are bound to examine.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the commission anything to do with the outside service ?


Charles Murphy: No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Have the Civil Service Commissioners laid before the government a 23
general scheme setting forth the method of holding the examinations and their scheme of procedure ?


Charles Murphy: The commissioners are preparing a set of regulations to be laid before the government which I understand will form part of the report to be laid before the House. The commissioners have been in conference with the heads of several leading universities and other institutions for the purpose of securing a uniform standard for examinations throughput the country. They have not yet absolutely decided on that standard and for that reason the regulations have not been laid before the government. They have held examinations along lines laid down by themselves and from the candidates successful at these examinations they have recommended several candidates for the Civil Service.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I suppose we will have these regulations before the estimates are all passed ?


Charles Murphy: If they are submitted to the government in time they will be laid before the House. They will be given to the House at the earliest possible date.


John Dowsley Reid: Will the commission recognize the certificates of those who passed before the introduction of the new Civil Service Act as a qualification ?


Charles Murphy: Yes. The commission have recently notified persons who have passed the examinations in times past to send in their names, addresses and dates of passing so that they will have a list ready.


John Dowsley Reid: Will successful candidates be qualified without further examination ?	[DOT]


Charles Murphy: I cannot answer that.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Have the places at which examinations will be held been announced?


Charles Murphy: That is a matter within the discretion of the commissioners; they may select different places in the Dominion to suit the convenience of the public.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: There seems to be an unusually large staff. The commission did not get under way, did it?


Charles Murphy: They are just getting under way.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Are they to be located in Ottawa?


Charles Murphy: The headquarters are to be in Ottawa.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not like to press my hott. friend unduly, but I think the committee will admit that it would be more satis-



factory in voting these amounts for this new arrangement that is going into effect this year to have before us the regulations and plan upon which these commissioners intend to proceed. But we will take the assurance of my hon. friend on that point that we shall get them.


Charles Murphy: Yes.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Therefore, we are passing this vote of $19,000 pretty much on the assumption that everything will be all right. I will call my hon. friend's attention, however, to this: There are two commissioners at $5,000 and a secretary at $3,050.


Charles Murphy: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I was going to observe that it seemed a little high, but we will leave that. Then, there is one examiner at $900, one at $600, and one, Mr. DeCelles, at $600. These, I understand, will assist the commissioners to superintend the competition for entry into the Civil Service. But, I do not understand this: In subdivision B we have three other examiners at $800.


Charles Murphy: They are clerks employed in the office.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I understood these were examiners, and I was wondering why we wanted examiners in the different subdivisions.


Charles Murphy: They are not examiners; they do clerical work in the office of the commissioners in Ottawa. I might explain further that there was an error in the item to which my hon. friend has just drawn attention. The proof was corrected and the , item should have been printed in accordance with that correction. That item of $2,100 should have gone into the item below, the. first item under 'contingencies,' and it should have read:
Amount required to pay temporary examiners and to meet the cost of holding the different examinations required by law, $10,000.
These items should not have been separated and the total will be $2,250 less than as it appears here. Then the other items under ' civil government ' relate solely to the Ottawa staff required by the commission.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is the secretary of the commission?


Charles Murphy: Mr. William Foran, formerly secretary of the Board of Civil Service Examiners.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Is it the purpose to examine candidates individually or in a body in a hall?


Charles Murphy: I understand that examination papers are set and that the competitors write as they do at a University examination.	i


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Then why the necessity of three examiners?


Charles Murphy: Because examinations are held simultaneously at different places, and these examiners are required to conduct them.


Mr. SCHAFFNER.: Will the same number of examinations be held each year as formerly?


Charles Murphy: The dates at which the examinations are to be held and the number of examinations are two of the matters before the commission. I do not think they are restricted as to places or dates. My understanding is that they intend to hold examinations more frequently than formerly.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Will the permanent examiners be kept on during the whole year or just at the time the examinations are being held?


Charles Murphy: Just at the time the examinations are being held. It is not the intention to have any permanent examiners. That item is incorrectly printed. It should have given the total amount for these examinations as $10,000. The wording of the item as it appears here was applicable to the former Board of Civil Service Examiners. There were permanent examiners attached to the board and this is a relic of the former system.


Mr. BARNARD.: Do I understand the minister to say that it has not yet been decided where the examinations will be held?


Charles Murphy: The Civil Service Commissioners have not yet decided upon the number of places where examinations will be held.


George Henry Barnard: I would ask the minister to bear in mind that there are a number of people in British Columbia and the west who would like to enter into this competition and some provision should be made to hold examinations in those provinces.


Charles Murphy: These are the matters that are engaging the attention of the Board and that is the reason why the regulations that the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) referred to are not yet complete. It is to meet such contingencies that the regulations are being framed.


Robert Laird Borden: How have the appointments been made since the 1st of September? The Act came into force on that date and after that date it was necessary to appoint to the inside service by competitive examination. Have all persons appointed since that date been appointed by competitive examination?


Charles Murphy: So I understand.


Robert Laird Borden: How has that been accomplished?


Charles Murphy: There were examinations held a couple of months ago, and I do not know of any appointments having been made prior to that. I understand that any appointments that were made were appointments based upon the result of those examinations.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. gentleman know whether or not the old examinations have been utilized for that purpose?


Charles Murphy: I do not know to what extent the results of the former examinations have been utilized, but I am informed that a number of temporary clerks have been brought on for temporary work who had passed the previous examinations. A few moments ago I explained to another hon. gentleman that the Commission had inserted notices in the papers asking those that had previously passed the Civil Service Examination under the old board to send in their names, addresses and the dates upon which they had passed the examination, so that they might have them for reference.


Robert Laird Borden: Are there not records of these examinations in the department and in the hands of the present Civil Service Examiners?


Charles Murphy: There are.


Robert Laird Borden: So that I suppose they could have been resorted to for the purpose pending the holding of new examinations? I do not know whether it would be in strict compliance with the statute or not, but in default of anything better it would have been wise to have utilized them.


William Paterson: I have had one experience with reference to the new Act. An officer died in one of our branches and the vacancy had to be filled. In accordance with the wishes of the commissioners, the deputy of the department addressed a communication to them stating that we required another clerk in subdivision B, or whatever it was-I think in the class running from $800 to $1,000. He expressed a wish that they would give him a name of a clerk, stating that he would have to do accounting work and suggesting that he should be good at figures and have a retentive memory. They simply, from the records now before them, I suppose, selected a young man and sent him to us. We do not pass an outside clerk making the appointment. The commissioners decide on the person who is to be appointed, they notifv the Auditor General, and he comes on without any outside clerk being passed. He must have three months' trial. The deputy cannot object to him until he has had three months' trial, then if he finds he cannot do the work, he must within six months notify the commissioners that he is incompetent for the work and they give us another person. But, if
231	. ;i II! Hi :im
the deputy does not notify them within six months that the person they have sent is incompetent he becomes permanent.


John Dowsley Reid: Who are the other permanent examiners? I see there is one gentleman named.


Charles Murphy: These were the old examiners. The other two were Dr. J. C. Glashan, Inspector of Public Schools in Ottawa, and Dr. Thorburn.


John Dowsley Reid: Do they act in a body or does each go to a different place and hold an examination?


Charles Murphy: They go as directed by the Board.


John Dowsley Reid: They go individually to hold an examination


Charles Murphy: Yes.


John Dowsley Reid: And the paners are examined by these men and the result sent to the commissioners?


Charles Murphy: Yes.


Mr. GOODEVE.: Do I understand that the $900 and the $600 respectively are paid to these men for holding an examination half-yearly?


Charles Murphy: I do not know that it is correct to say that these gentlemen will only hold semi-annual examinations. I understand the examinations are to be held more frequently than formerly and held in different provinces so as to give a larger number a chance to compete. I cannot speak with exactitude at the moment, but I understand these gentlemen do perform other duties than merely attending at the examinations.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: They perform other duties besides that?


Charles Murphy: Yes, and it is not the
intention to have these men permanent as was the case under the old system. They will be selected by the commissioners from time to time, and this vote is to provide funds to pay these gentlemen.


Arthur Samuel Goodeve: Then am I to understand that no matter how many examinations are held the total salaries will be $600 and $900 respectively?


Charles Murphy: These were the salaries received by the examiners on the old board.


Mr. W. H. SHARPE.: Did I understand that these examiners were to be sent from one province to another to hold examinations?


Charles Murphy: I understand that is the intention.


Mr. WARBURTON.: The system formerly was that the examination papers were pre-


John Dowsley Reid: It is a pity the minister was not able to give us that explanation.


Alexander Bannerman Warburton: 


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: If these Toermanent examiners are to be sent from place to place, what is the necessity for temporary examiners?


Charles Murphy: I understand there will he no permanent examiners in the sense that they were permanent under the old system. I shall, with the permission of the House, read the explanation that has been made to me:-
The scheme of competitive examination provided by the Civil Service Act will necessitate the employment of many outside examiners who will be entrusted with the preparation of questions and the marking of the candidates' papers, and the expenditure for this work alone will be considerable, especially as it is proposed to hold the general competitive examinations twice a year.
In addition to this there will be the remuneration to the presiding examiners and their assistants at some eighteen centres throughout the Dominion, as well as the rent to be paid for halls and the necessary furniture to equip them for examination purposes. Then again it is not improbable that a number of special technical examinations will be required during the year, for which the services of outside examiners will be utilized, and which will entail some expense. While the commission can only estimate approximately what the cost will be for the different services during the first year under the new system, it is fully expected that the amount asked for will be required.
It is hoped before the close of the next fiscal year to submit for the approval of the Governor in Council a regular tariff of charges for the different services required under the new Act.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I do not see what difference it makes whether you call them permanent examiners or what you call them. I want to know what these men do for the salaries of $900 and $600, and the distinction between them, and what are called temporary examiners?


Robert Laird Borden: There is another thing that I would like the hon. gentleman to explain at the same time, that is, whether or not the scheme is the same as the hon. member for Queens, Prince Edward Island, has explained, or the one that he himself has explained, because they are entirely different. The scheme which has hitherto prevailed, as far as I understand the explanation which was given, is that the papers have all been marked by a central body of examiners at Ottawa. The scheme outlined in the memorandum which the Secretary of State has read refers to a system of marking at different places by examiners appointed for those places. That is a very different thing, and we would like to know definitely just how that is going to work out. If you have a system of competitive examinations, how will you work out the scheme of having papers marked by twelve or eighteen different examiners throughout the country ? The system of

marking cannot be precisely the same. Of course, I speak with a great deal of deference, so far as the proposal is concerned, because no doubt the Civil Service Examiners have bestowed a great deal of consideration upon it. That, however, would strike me as an initial difficulty. I do not understand at the present moment how the system will be worked out, and would be glad to have further explanations.


Charles Murphy: I do not know that the actual marking will be done at the outside places.


Robert Laird Borden: If I caught the memorandum correctly, it did say that.


Charles Murphy: It provides that the outside examiners shall be entrusted with putting the questions and marking the examination papers. Then it goes on to indicate that the presiding examiners may have assistance at these different centres. That is the only information I have on the subject.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I would like to have an answer to my question.


Charles Murphy: I do not observe that it is the intention of the commission to make any difference between permanent and temporary. As I have already explained, the term permanent examiners is a misprint, and should not have appeared.


Robert Laird Borden: Section 11 of the Civil Service Act contains this provision :
The present civil service examiners shall continue to hold office during pleasure and shall be under direction of the commission.
As I understand, under this provision, the three Civil Service Examiners continue in office during pleasure.


Charles Murphy: Messrs. DeCelles, Thor-burn and Glashan are the three gentlemen who form that board, I do not understand that it is the intention to continue them for any length of time, but it is intended to select such gentlemen as may be available for the purposes of these examinations- not necessarily these three gentlemen.


Robert Laird Borden: This item refers to these three gentlemen, does it not ?


Charles Murphy: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Up to the present time it has evidently been the pleasure of the government to continue these three men in office. My hon. friends on the treasury benches do not seem to be familiar with their own orders in council, because I find in a return brought down to-day an order in council of the 16th of October, which, after reciting that the Civil Service Commissioners are engaged in formulating a code of rules and regulations for competitive examinations, provides :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, aoting on the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners, is pleased to order and it is hereby ordered, in order that the interests of the publio service may not suffer, and in order that everything may be done in compliance with the strict requirements of the law, that until such time as the rules and regulations above indicated are established by the Governor in Council, the ordinary entrance examinations or their equivalent, heretofore accepted for the inside service, and still required for the outside service, shall be the test for the employment of clerks in the third division of the inside service as prescribed by the said amending Act; it being nevertheless distinctly understood that, even in this interim arrangement, the competitive system shall prevail in such entrance examinations, that is to say, that those having the highest percentages in passing the entrance examinations in question shall be given the preference in appointments made as above set forth.
That is what I suggested a moment ago might very properly have been done. I am finding no fault with the order in council, but I think we might have had the explanation given a little more fully, so that we [DOT] could have understood what the situation was.


Charles Murphy: I may say that I was not in office when that order in council was passed.


Robert Laird Borden: I was not finding fault with the hon. gentleman any more than the other ministers.


Mr. WORTHINGTON.: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if the examiners just referred to have anything to do with examining applicants for positions in the permanent force; for I see at page 52 of the estimates an item of $700 to pay Civil Service Examiners for examining applicants for commission in the permanent force.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can give no explanation of that. It must be some arrangement in the Militia Department to employ the old Civil Service Examiners; but it is not under the Civil Service Act.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Is this $700 appropriated for this service included in the salaries of the examiners ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It must be extra pay.


George Taylor: I fully agree with the hon. member for North Ontario (Mr. S. Sharpe) that twelve men appear to be a very large number to examine persons for positions in the Civil Service. I should think that three or four at the outside could accomplish that work. Here is a staff of twelve men which is going to cost the country about $30,000 a year. It is simply an outrage.


William Paterson: They are! the masters- the absolute masters now.


John Dowsley Reid: What is the average number of new appointments made each year in the Civil Service.


Charles Murphy: I cannot give that information.


William Henry Sharpe: How many in your own department?


Charles Murphy: There have not been any that I am aware of.


John Dowsley Reid: According to the statements of some of the ministers the other evening, there were in the last year only five or six appointments in each of their departments. If there are, say ten or eleven departments, with an average of five or six appointments during the year in each, that would mean some 60 new appointments and it is going to cost $30,000 per year simply to examine applicants to fill that number of positions. Surely the Secretary of State must have an estimate of how many vacancies there are to fill each year on an average.


Charles Murphy: I can only answer for my own department, andi there were none in it last year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I should say, speaking offhand, there are in the neighbourhood of 150 new appointments each year. I am simply making a statement from what 1 know from experience in the last ten years


John Dowsley Reid: Will the Secretary of State agree to give us, on some other estimate, a memorandum showing how many vacancies there were in each department during the year 1908, and the number of vacancies and new positions that were filled?
just the same as if there were a hundred positions to be filled.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Are the examinations held in dierent provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, if one clerk has to be apDointed, opportunity must be given everyone throughout the Dominion to compete.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps my hon. friend could explain a matter I inquired about some time ago. Is it proposed that there shall be certain papers sent and that the answers of the candidates shall be marked by the examiners in different cities and different parts of the country?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot give an absolute answer. The same examination papers will be used everywhere and will be prepared and sent to wherever the examinations are going to take place just as in the old examinations. I cannot say whether the answers are all sent in to the central body here to pass upon, but I think that will be the case.


Robert Laird Borden: I received a contrary impression from the memorandum given by the Secretary of State, and I thought that possibly the Minister of Agriculture would be able to speak definitely upon the subject.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is it the intention of the commission to apportion the appointments from the different provinces according to population? In the United States the appointments are made to the Civil Service from the different states in proportion to their population.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no such provision in the Civil Service Act.


Charles Murphy: I shall try to get that at the earliest date posible.


George Taylor: Taking the statement of the Minister of Agriculture that there were probably 150 vacancies filled last year, along with the commission he engaged in making the selections.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The commission have a year's work to do before they can get the lists from which to select those people. They have to hold examinations all over the country. They have to prepare the papers and organize the examinations and under the new Act they have to prepare special examinations for technical officers and others. So that they not only have to hold two large examinations once every six months, of the ordinary class of applicant, but also special examinations. I have myself three cases in which I shall have to apply to the commissioners in a very few days for examination for officers, and in each case there will have to be special papers drawn and opportunity will have to be given to every one in Canada to compete, Mr. PATERSON.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I would like a little better explanation in answer to the question I put. You can say that this item is wrong, if you like, but if you take the two items you will find they make a total of $10,000. If this item is wrong, why is one of these men put down at $900 and the other at $600?


Charles Murphy: This item was in continuance of the practice that prevailed under the old plan of Civil Service examination. The intention is, and should have been carried out, to strike out that item, a lump sum of $10,000 being asked for to hold these examinations here and in the eighteen centres referred to in the memorandum.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: But that does not explain why one man is given $900 and one man $600.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: One of these men is Dr. Glashan, inspector of schools for Ottawa. Not being a member of the Civil Service, he was given $600. The others are members

of the Civil Service and they were given $600 for one and $900 for the other.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: What were his duties?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Their duties were to prepare the papers for examinations, send them out and examine and mark them when they came back.


John Dowsley Reid: It cost $2,100 before, and it will cost us $30,000 hereafter.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Besides the examinations, we have the services of the Civil Service Commission.


Mr. J. A. CURRIE.: Is it the intention to have the Civil Service examining body carry on examinations for the various branches of the service? For instance, there is a vote to be proposed of $11,000 for examination of masters and mates. I understand this does not now come under the Civil Service any more than the examinations for the permanent force, but I understand there has been a great deal of abuse in connection with this examination.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. J. A. Currie) is wandering from the item before us.


John Allister Currie: I simply ask whether
this central body will carry on these various examinations.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The Civil Service Commissioners, operating under the Act of last session, do not conduct examinations for the outside service.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not wish to delay the committee, but it seems to me that we are asked to vote this money pretty much in the dark. Many of the questions which we are compelled to ask would have been unnecessary if somebody had done the preparatory work showing why the money is asked for. We ought to have the regulations prepared by these commissioners. I do not wish to delay the Secretary of State unduly, but I would like to ask him when, as a matter of fact, we are to have these regulations, so that we may see exactly what the new commission intends doing. For instance, my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) asked a very pertinent question, whether any distribution was provided for as between the different provinces of those who were to enter the service, as had been provided in the United States when they began to do what we have undertaken-to give the preference to merit instead of to political patronage in Civil Service appointments. The minister says there is nothing provided in that regard. Is that absolutely so? It might happen that, for instance, Prince Edward Island would find within it so much talent that the 150 candidates necessary every year would come out of that province, and such
large provinces as Quebec and Ontario would get nothing. Surely that is a point which the Civil Service Commissioners have considered. Or are we to understand that there is to be no apportionments as between the different provinces, merit being equal? We all know what the former Civil Service examination amounted to. The Secretary of State (Mr. Murphy) knows it very well. Heaps of men were piled up in the Civil Service without examination, but with the understanding that they would submit to examination later on. The Civil Service examination has become practically a dead letter. Since we are now adopting a step forward, and making a reform, we would like to make sure that it is really going to be carried out as intended.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If I may take it upon myself to answer :	I said there was no provision in the Act such as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Monk) speaks of. When the Act was going through parliament, the question was more or less discussed. My hon. friend (Mr. Monk) was present, and I do not remember that he proposed to put such a provision in the Act.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: No, certainly.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Then, I suppose he did not wish it to be put in. In his remarks, it seems to me, he is thinking more of patronage than of the good of the service. It seems to me that it does not matter much whether one province or another gets a little more patronage under the Civil Service Act, but it does matter a great deal that the best men should go into the service, and that is the object of reform, that is the object of competitive examination. I think the Act will carry out the intention we had in passing it.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I never had a more senseless answer to a reasonable question. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) seems to have patronage on the brain. I never spoke of enforcing any special enactment as to that. Nobody knows better than my hon. friend that there are a great many administrative measures that are not introduced into Acts and it seems to me it is perfectly proper for U3 at this stage, when we are voting the money necessary to have this Act put into execution, to ask if those who are going to carry it out have given that particular feature of the case some consideration. My hon. friend will not say that when the American people started out to accomplish a reform far greater than any that we have accomplished here, they did not display some wisdom in finding that they had to attribute a certain number of civil servants to each state. That is not put in the statute but it is a matter for consideration.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is in the American statute.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I doubt it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It is.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: We are spending a large sum for the reform of the Civil Service and it is fair to ask if the consideration has been given to the attribution of the civil servants to the provinces of the Dominion in a certain proportion. For instance if a man from Quebec disappears from the Civil Service, will his successor be nominated from that province or will merit only govern? I am not advocating one side or the other but ask whether that point has been considered by the government or the commissioners. The answer of the Minister of Agriculture is that there is nothing in the law. If the committee think that is a satisfactory answer I do not. Can the minister give an approximate' date when we will have before the House the regulations that will govern the proceedings of the commission?


Charles Murphy: Since the hon. member made his inquiry I find that these regulations will be available within a week and I will have pleasure in presenting them to the House. I move that the item of $3,050, salary of the secretary, be reduced by $150, that the item of $2,100 for permanent examiners be struck out, and that the resolution be amended accordingly.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would not consent to the adoption of the item unless assured by the minister that we shall have an opportunity of discussing the regulations.


Charles Murphy: Certainly.


John Dowsley Reid: There is a difference of opinion between the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State. As I understand the Secretary of State, the examinations will take place at eighteen different places, and whoever holds the examination wi]l examine the papers, decide the number of marks of the candidates at these points, and on the number of marks sent in for each candidate, the commissioners will decide the special qualifications that he possesses. The Minister of Agriculture's statement is entirely the opposite. He states that the papers will be sealed up, sent in to Ottawa, and examined by the commissioners.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think my hon. friend misanprehended me. I said that they would be sealed up and passed on by the commissioners, but as to whether they would be passed upon by the examiners at different places I did not know.


John Dowsley Reid: But the Secretary of State has a memorandum from the Civil Service Commission.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If he has, that is all right.


John Dowsley Reid: Then I understand that is to be final, and that what the Minister of Agriculture stated is not correct?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not going to set up my opinion against the Board of Civil Service Examiners.


John Dowsley Reid: Then that, I understand, is to be final?


Samuel Hughes: Is there any provision for accepting the degree of a university or a teacher's certificate in lieu of an examination?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.


Samuel Hughes: Why not?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That was decided by parliament last session.


Samuel Hughes: It is not too late to reform.
Resolution as amended agreed to.
Civil government-Post Office Department-Salaries, $488,944.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This item last year amounted to $376,831.25. This year it is $488,944. The explanation for this increase is as follows:-Increases in the salaries of certain employees raised from the minimum of their respective classes under the Civil Service Act of last year, $57,836; 18 additional employees made permanent under the provisions of the amendment to the Civil Serivce Act of last year, $57,836; 18 additional clerkships and 6 additional messengers, packers and sorters, $24,800; 20 increases of $100 each, $2,000; 442 increases of $50 each, $22,100 ; 3 increases of $46 each, $138; increases in provisional allowance, $650. I will take each item separately. First, let us take the Post Office Department, 1st division, subdivision A. There is the deputy head, Dr. Coulter, raised from $4,000 to $5,000. I need not give any explanation as to that as it was fixed by statute last year. The officers in Class A are all heads of branches of the department and have a large staff under them.


George Taylor: How does the superintendent of correspondence come to get a raise of $1,000 ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: He had a salary at $],-950 and besides he had an allowance of $600 as my private secretary making $2,250. He now loses the allowance of $600 and he becomes head of the correspondence branch so that the increase to Mr. Verret is only $350.


John Dowsley Reid: Is this a new office ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes; it was recommended by Dr. Coulter.


John Dowsley Reid: The fact remains that you have actually increased his salary $950.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the minister made any new appointments in connection with this great boon of free rural mail delivery which he has conferred on the people?


Rodolphe Lemieux: In the province of Quebec Mr. Bolduc the chief inspector and in Ontario Mr. Ross, superintendent of post offices in Toronto, have been appointed heads of this service. In each province the inspector will be in charge of that branch of the service.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: There have been no new appointments made in Ottawa in connection with that service ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: No.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: And there are not likely to be any.


Rodolphe Lemieux: No.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: There would appear to be an increase of ten officials under this vote.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The business of the department has expanded considerably and we have had to appoint some new officials to cope with it. Mr. Moon has been promoted to be chief clerk; some fifteen years ago he was secretary to the then Postmaster General and I think he acted as secretary for Sir John Macdonald also. He is a very efficient officer and we thought he should be promoted. Mr. Martin an old and deserving official has also been appointed to a chief clerkship on the special recommendation of the deputy postmaster general.


Arthur Samuel Goodeve: The superintendent of correspondence received last year $1,950 and he apparently found time to act as private secretary to the minister for which he received $600 in addition. This year he has dropped that additional duty. In other words, while he does less work than before, his salary is increased by $350.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the facts were as stated, I would say that my hon. friend had made a very good case. But I must explain that last year Mr. Verret, my private secretary, was a chief clerk as well. My hon. friend knows that the Post Office Department is naturally a department of letters. Every morning we receive heaps of letters from every section of the country, some addressed to the Postmaster General officially, and some in my name. The sorting and distribution of all these letters has to be done by a man who knows the business of the department. Of course, we have some French settlements in the maritime provinces, we have the province of Quebec, and we have many French people in the west, and if my hon. friend will consult
the Civil Service List, he will find that I have not one officer in the higher ranks of the department speaking and writing in French and capable of attending to and preparing answers to the correspondence in French. Mr. Verret, while acting as my private secretary, was assisted by four subsecretaries in attending to the correspondence. Now he will not have to do that work, but will be confined to the superintendence of correspondence in the department. I must have a first-class officer who is well versed in the two languages, and he is the only one out of twelve who is fully qualified for that work. He is a very competent and good officer, and I need him.


Samuel Hughes: Will the minister explain to the House what his total salary was last year and what it is this year?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Last year is was $2,550; this year it is $2,900.


John Allister Currie: I would like to ask the Postmaster General if it is the policy of the department to maintain the sale of stamps as a monopoly. In the city of Toronto stamps could formerly be purchased from licensed persons all over the city. Now the sale is confined to the various branch post offices, where stamps can only be obtained during office hours.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The sale of stamps is a public utility, and the government alone can sell them. As a matter of fact, we have not reduced the number of licenses in the city of Toronto. Whenever the members apply for licenses in their respective constituencies, I am only too pleased to grant them, provided the licensees are a certain distance from each other. If my hon. friend will assign any of these licenses in his constituency, I shall be only too glad to comply with his request.


Mr. ARMSTRONG  .@: Has the minister any officer whose duty it is to examine into the literature that is coming into our country? Last session I called his attention to a number of undesirable publications coming into Canada, and I understood that some of them are coming in still in large numbers, as well as many others. The minister, by reducing the rate of postage to Great Britain has opened the door to a class of literature that is anything but of an elevating nature, while at the same time he has shut the door to the very best kind of literature coming from the United States. Our people are compelled to pay at least 50 cents a year for each monthly or weekly coming in, and at the same time he has placed on the weekly papers of Canada a ban that practically prevents them from having in the United States the circulation which they had for a number of years. I notice that the minister has made arrangements whereby these papers can go in to the United

States a little more conveniently than they could some time ago. I would like to ask him if he intends to continue the same arrangement that he had last year in regard to periodicals from the United States and in regard to Canadian weeKiies going into the United States.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As regards undesirable literature coming from England, I may say that during my recent trip to England I had an interview with the Postmaster General of Great Britain, Mr. Buxton, and I had with me the Hansard of last session, wherein my hon. friend referred to certain very undesirable periodicals coming into this country. Mr. Buxton answered by showing me a leaflet published by the Post Office Department of Great Britain, giving the names of the only periodicals which were authorized to come under the arrangement arrived at between the Canadian Post Office Department and the British Post Office Department. I know that the British Postmaster General is not willing to give to the undesirable papers the privilege which the legitimate periodicals have received through that arrangement, and I am sure, from the assurances that I have received from our officers and from numbers of the clergy of all denominations, that these undesirable periodicals have ceased to come through the mails. However, it is impossible to prevent them filtering in, for though they do not come by the Post Office Department, they may slip in through the Customs Department. I do not wish to shield myself behind my hon friend the Minister of Customs. We all know that as far as moral and sound literature is concerned, he is immune against any attacks that can be made upon him. I am sure he takes all the necessary precautions to protect this country against such undesirable literature. At any rate he has assured me that he has done so in the past. As regards the other question, the rates between the United States and Canada, I think we had better postpone to another occasion the very interesting discussion which no doubt we shall have on that matter. I may say however, that the weekly press have practically ceased sending protests. We have established at several points on the frontier, with the consent of the Washington authorities, means of sending the weeklies at the old rate, and since a few months, I have not received any protests.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN.: Has my hon. friend received a petition from the post office inspectors to be placed in the inside service? And is he disposed to regard it favourably?


Mr LEMIEUX.: I have, but I would not like to speak for the government on this point. Last year, when my hon. colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, introduced the Mr. ARMSTRONG.
new Civil Service Act, he said it would first apply to the inside service at Ottawa, and that later on we would bring under the operation of the Act a number of officers. I would be quite willing to have the post office inspectors come under that Act, and have had applications to that effect, not only from the inspectors, but from the ordinary clerks and lower grades of the service as well. The outside service are quite willing to come under the operation of the Act, and also receive the bounty received by the inside service


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: Is the hon. minister considering the advisability of raising the rate of interest in the post office savings banks?


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: That is- a question hardly proper to discuss under this item.


Rodolphe Lemieux: At all events we shall await the return of the Finance Minister.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: I give the hon gentleman notice that I shall bring it up in another way.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When my hon. colleague (the Minister of Finance) returns, I presume that question would be discussed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would remind my hon. friend that the letter carriers of Montreal have petitioned his department for an increase in pay. I do not want to go into the merits of their demand just at present, but my hon. friend is aware that these men are getting very small pay for the work they do. Living in Montreal and having to pay the rent and taxes which prevail there and the schooling of their children, and the variety of expenses which only occur, or occur in a much larger degree in large cities like Toronto and Montreal compared with smaller places, their pay of $1.50 to $2 per day for the responsible work they have to do in,-all sorts of weather is very inadequate. They perform their duties faithfully and are well entitled to an increase, and I am sure that my hon. friend, who has made several improvements in the service in the city of Montreal, will consider favourably their petition.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I cannot say more at present than that the matter is under my very serious consideration just now.


Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.: Might I ask which official of the Post Office Department had to do with the extension of free delivery in the cities? We in New Westminster, encouraged by the statement of the Postmaster General a couple of years ago that he com-templated an extension of free delivery not only to the smaller cities, but to the tows as well, have been petitioning the department for an extension of that service

to New Westminister. In the meantime we have seen the service extended to other places with lower standards of population and revenue-for instance Three Rivers and St. Hvacinthe.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the population and what is the revenue of New Westminster ?


James Davis Taylor: Our population is something over 12,000, and our revenue considerably over $20,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am very glad my hon. friend has brought to my attention the case of New Westminister. I did not know it had a population of 12,000 and a revenue of over $20,000. If such be the case, I invite my hon. friend to my office, and he will be given letter carriage in that city. The rule we have adopted is that wherever there is a population of 12,000 and a revenue of at least $20,000, that city will be entitled to free delivery.


James Davis Taylor: I have a statement from the mayor of New Westminster, and I believe it was sent to the department, of an official census, showing the population of New Westminster to be 12,198, and that the revenue is over $20,000 is established by the official reports.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If you have the population and the revenues and your city will number the streets, it will not take fifteen days before it gets letter carrier delivery.
Post Office Department-Contingencies (including $50 a year to pay W. Cooch for inspecting letter carriers' boots) $65,755.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is an increase here of $14,000. It is made up of: Printing, $11,000; sundries, $3,200. The increase in the amount of printing is due to the increase of the business of the department. A part is the printing of the forms and pamphlet which I shall distribute in a few days to hon. members in explanation of, and for carrying on, the rural mail delivery service. Out of the item of sundries, we pay for newspapers, telegrams, telephones, washing towels, travelling expenses of officers on duty and various other items.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: Does the Postmaster General intend to establish free mail delivery wherever it is petitioned for ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Certainly-according to the principles of the Post Office Department. I will explain that in a few days. Of course, it will be on existing stage routes. It will be established as we receive requests,-we are not going to differentiate.


John Barr: Will any particular number be required on the petition ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course, we cannot give free rural mail delivery for one individual. But, generally speaking, where twenty farmers


John Barr: And they must agree to take the boxes ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course, the letters could not be received otherwise.


John Barr: And for a box $3 is to be
paid?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


John Barr: Any other expense ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: No. The box becomes the property of the person who pays for it.


Samuel Hughes: Why does the minister call this ' free mail delivery '?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is free.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is this printing of which the minister speaks done by tender ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Our printing is all done by the Government Printing Bureau, but, of course, we have to pay the Secretary_of State. In other things, we buy nothing except by tender.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The Postmaster General of course, is aware that the American Bank Note Company do business with his department to the amount of $60,000 or $70,000 a year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is a special contract which covers not only the printing of stamps but also the printing of the Dominion notes. That contract is with the Minister of Finance. It was made, I believe, in 1897, and has been renewed once or twice since then.
Arts, agriculture- and statistics-Statistical Year-book, $6,000.


George Taylor: We will have to have a lot of discussion on that. Why not take item 7, Department of Public Printing and Stationery?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We were discussing this Year-book before dinner, and we had better dispose of the item, I think.


George Taylor: We have the Secretary of State (Mr. Murphy) here, and it would be better to take this item of Public Printing and Stationery and adjourn at a reasonable hour, especially seeing this is private members dav. There are a few of our friends investigating the Year-book, and they are not prepared to discuss it tonight.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Do I understand the hon. gentleman (Mr. George Taylor) to say that the gentlemen about him want further time to consider this and to look up the facts? If so, I would not prevent them. If they wish to study the Year-book, by all means let them do so. Let us take another item the vote for exhibitions.


George Taylor: That is worse; take something easy.

Arts, agriculture and statistics-Exhibitions $75,000.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Does this include the $50,000 given annually for the Dominion exhibition ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, this is for foreign exhibitions.


John Barr: How many exhibitions are provided for in this vote ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: One-that at Seattle next summer.


John Barr: Was there a grant to the exhibition in Scotland last year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We spent some money upon our own exhibit at an exhibition in Edinburgh; we do not give any grants to foreign exhibitions.


Samuel Hughes: Would the minister give the names of the officers who were at the Dublin and Edinburgh exhibitions?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would like to have also the list of those who represented Canada at the Anglo-French exhibition, with the salaries or allowances given to each one.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 
Miss R.   J.@: 
John Allister Currie: For what exhibition is this amount intended next year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The Yukon-Alaska exhibition at Seattle.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Would the minister give the details of the estimate?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Hutchison, the chief commissioner, has gone to Seattle. He informed me before leaving that he expected the building would cost a little under $20,000 and that the present staff, with the exception of three or four, will be required, but I have not his definite report as to which should be continued and which left off.


John Allister Currie: What is the nature of the exhibition, is it international or state or a county fair?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is intended to include the whole Pacific coast of America. The invitation to Canada to participate was accepted on very strong representations from British Columbia and the Yukon. Other countries bordering on the Pacific ocean are also invited to exhibit and I understand are accepting.


Mr. JAMESON.: Does not the minister think that the allowance of $20 a day to Mr. Hutchison, who receives $3,000 salary, is rather liberal? During 275 days of the year Mr. Hutchison drew at the rate of $20 a day or $5,500, and then there appears to have been a term of abstinence or rigid economy, 90 days, during which he was allowed only $10 a day. What is the explanation of these two allowances?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The $20 a day is allowed Mr. Hutchison during the period when he is actually on the ground of an exhibition. Of course, while representing Canada at the exhibition he has to take his share with commissioners from other countries and give entertainments and receive the guests of Canada at these exhibitions. As for the days when he is allowed $10, that is during the time that he was abroad working on an exhibition, but not having to do this entertaining, because the exhibition was not running and there were no other commissioners there and no people coming who would expect to be entertained by the representative of Canada.


Clarence Jameson: Has there ever been any system whereby instead of guaranteeing a per diem allowance, Bills were sent in as representing the cost of entertaining visitors or distinguished persons with whom the commissioner might find it advisable to come into contact. Is there any basis upon which this $20 per diem allowance is fixed?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, years ago when Canada had exhibits at the Chicago Exhibition, and, later on, at the Paris Exhibition and some others, that was the system. It was found to be very unsatisfactory. There were all sorts of petty little details appearing which were made fun of and created debate in the House and in the country which was felt to be quite unnecessary and quite undignified. The feeling was that the system should be changed and in the case of a man like Mr. Hutchison, who is not known probably to the hon. gentleman who has just spoken, but who is known well to the older members of this House, there is no suggestion of thought that he does not spend the money exactly in the way in which it is intended.


James Davis Taylor: I would like to ask the minister what system is followed in dealing with the accounts of the exhibition commissioner, and how it happens that accounts for 1905 are only being dealt with in the volume of the Auditor General's Report now before us, three years after the expenditure has been incurred?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot give an explanation off-hand, but I suppose there were some accounts held over for discussion, or something of that kind or perhans they did not send in proper vouchers and the accountant in the department refused to pass them.


James Davis Taylor: I was prompted to ask that question by the minister's statement that we should take the fact that this money has been spent by Sir. Hutchison as a sufficient warrantv for us to pass this vote without further inquiry, but on looking over this volume of the Auditor General's Report, I see the following:
Win. Hutchison, commissioner, living allowance, Maroh 27 to December 31, 1905, 279 days at $20.
That is his living alowance for 1905. It appears in the Auditor General's Report three years later, and it is not a reasonable supposition that Mr. Hutchison went without the money during these three years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Without the details of the accounts of 1907, I can only imagine that it was an open account which ran along and which eventually was settled by Mr. Hutchison?


John Dowsley Reid: How is that if he was paid $20 a day?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I need not say to my hon. friend that if he was over on the other side of the Atlantic he might not have drawn the full amount that was due to him, but that the matter was settled up finally and the accounts closed three years later.' I have no other explanation to give of it at present.
Mr., J. D. TAYLOR. There must be some further explanation than has been given to
the committee. This item on the face of it bears evidence of having been the subject of serious discussion in the department. But, to proceed, I read here:-
Less cost of banquet $670.05, paid in 1901-5.
I think there is something about this item which ought to be explained.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have an explanation to give my hon. friend which has just been given to me. Mr. Hutchison gave a large bannuet to his fellow-commissioners at Liege, and it was such a large thing and so unusual that he thought the cost ought not to be taken out of his living allowance. He therefore sent in a special account for it. There was considerable correspondence with regard to it, but I refused to allow it to be paid except from his living allowance and eventually it was settled in that way, and he was required to pay the expenses of the banquet out of his usual $20 a day. Although paid in 1904-5 the correspondence did not occur until 1907, and therefore the account appears in the report of 1908.


James Davis Taylor: 
Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is exactly the same thing. Miss Barry made some charges and sent in bills for some things which we could not allow, but which she looked upon as being over and above her living allowance. There was a long correspondence, and the account was finally settled on the basis of the Auditor General's Report.


John Dowsley Reid: Who is Miss Barry?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Miss Barry is a lady who is well known in the city of Montreal. She is very much interested in the advancement of women's rights, she is a member of the Women's Council, and she was engaged to represent the ladies of Canada at one of these exhibitions.


Mr. BURRELL.: Would the minister explain the method of exhibiting fruit at the Anglo-French exhibition?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The representation of the fruit districts of Canada was made as general as possible. We have to get the fruit which will show to the best advantage and keep the best. I was not present at the

Anglo-French exhibition, but I believe that most of it was shown in cold storage glass cases, and some was shown in the open. As soon as it began to deteriorate from contact with the air it was replaced by new fruit taken out of our cold storage which was not shown before it was taken out.
The fruit was gathered from all over the country and such fruit was shown chiefly as would keep the best. In the early days of the exhibition, starting in' May and lasting till November, that season's fruit could not be shown, and we had to get fruit of the season before. We had to keep that in cold storage, take it out and show it at the exhibition from time to time as the exhibition proceeded. For the first three or four months of the exhibition that had to be done, but later on we got the earlier fruit and placed it on exhibition.


Martin Burrell: I am afraid the minister did not quite apprehend the drift of my remarks. I understand the government took the ground that it was better to exhibit fruit as Canadian fruit and not as special exhibits under the names of various provinces.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


Martin Burrell: Of course I understand it was desired to show fruit that was essentially Canadian, but this does! seem to me to be a mistake. I am informed that a person who proposed to emigrate from the old country to the province of British Columbia went to the exhibition desirous of seeing British Columbia fruit. When he got there it was impossible for _ the commissioner to point out where the British Columbia fruit was, except-and I say this with all deference to our friends from Nova Scotia-except that of course it made its presence known by its superior excellence. Even though special advertisement was not given to the different provinces, it was in my opinion a great mistake to so mix up the whole fruit exhibit that intending immigrants could not ascertain which fruit came from a particular province. I am told that one man decided to emigrate to Manitoba, thinking that certain very excellent fruit was the product of that province, although I do not think our friends from Manitoba will be likely to admit that the growing of fruit is their long suit. I repeat that in my opinion it was a great mistake that there was not a clear line of demarcation between the fruits from the various provinces.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We decided years ago that the exhibit by the Department of Agriculture should be a purely Canadian; exhibit, and that we should not divide it on provincial lines. The latter was done in the earlier days and it was not a success. I have repeated and strong compliments from our rivals at these exhibitions directed to Mr. FISHER.
the fact that we made the one national exhibit. Australasia has exhibited over and over again in competition with us and she has shown her exhibit divided according to her states, and other countries have done the! same. We have gone on the principle that the Canadian exhibit in one harmonious whole should represent the Dominion of Canada, and there is an almost unanimous opinion, if not quite unanimous, that this is the most effective and best way to represent our country. I sympathize with the view of my hon. friend (Mr. Burrell), but as a matter of fact while there may have been a collection of fruit shown as coming from Canada, yet individual exhibits bear the name of those from whom they have been procured with their post office addresses so that the province whence the fruit comes would be indicated in that way, Although I was not at the Anglo-French exhibit, I am pretty sure there were boxes of fruit and individual plates of fruit marked as coming from British Columbia. On the whole our exhibits have been national and not provincial, and that is one of the chief reasons why they have attracted a great deal more attention than the exhibits of other countries.


Martin Burrell: While I believe in the policy of not making any special advertisement of a particular province, yet I was distinctly informed that this man was told by one of the commissioners in charge that he would not and could not show him any special fruit grown in a particular province.


Samuel Hughes: At page D-13 of the Auditor General's Report it appears that the pavilion cost us $39,643, and that it was disposed of for $1,460. Is not that a rather cheap sale?	*


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I must frankly say that we find it very difficult to dispose of those buildings. We had to erect this particular building in accordance with the regulations of the London County Council, which required a very expensive structure, and -we either have to take the building down ourselves and dispose of the material or sell the building as it stands. We contract to take the building away and leave the land as it was before we commenced to build, and I have no doubt that Mr. Hutchison did the very best he could and he probably thought himself lucky to be able to get anything for the building.


Samuel Hughes: I see in the Auditor General's Report that Mr. G. P. McHugh got salary and living allowance from May 8 to November 29. Might I ask if he is a son of Senator McHugh?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think so, but I am not quite certain.
Mr. HUGHES-Is it the custom of the department to employ the sons of -liberal members of parliament and senators?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Any good men we can get.


Samuel Hughes: And there were none but good men?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I hope not.


John Allister Currie: At page D-11 of the Auditor General's report there is a deduction on account of the payments made in 1905-6 to Mr. James Brodie, secretary of the exhibitions. Was Mr. Brodie also given a banquet that year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, but Mr. Brodie unfortunately was taking larger pay than he had been authorized to take and eventually I had to recall Mr. Brodie to settle up his accounts, after having tried for a long time ineffectually to get a statement of them. Mr. Brodie ceased to be an employee of the department afterwards.


John Allister Currie: In 1908-9 there is a payment of $84.75 to Mr. Brodie.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That was the final balance in closing the account and settling up the matter.


John Dowsley Reid: Are these exhibits sold by the government?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, we use them from year to year when they are fit to be used, but when they are not fit for use of course we cannot sell them.


John Allister Currie: In view of the fact that the estimates in all other departments are being cut down, and also in view of the fact that Seattle is a very strong trade competitor with our Northwest, and also because adding to the welfare of its exhibition would be rather a detriment to Canada than a benefit, I wish to enter a protest against voting this large sum of money for that exhibition.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think my hon. friend hardly realizes the amount of money that is spent in these large exhibitions. For instance, in the Franeo-British exhibition, Australia spent $600,000.	$70,000 is a very
small amount to spend on an international exhibition.


John Allister Currie: The hon. gentleman overlooks the fact that this is purely a local or state exhibition.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend is altogether wrong, as he will find if he consults the representatives from British Columbia.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: I think the hon. minister shqjild at least have given us the number of officials for whom this money is intended. He is asking for a large sum in bulk without giving details as to how he intends to spend the moncj.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There will be something under $20,000 for a building, something under $20,000 for the whole staff, $8,000 or
$10,000 for printing and literature for distribution, a heavy item for bringing the exhibits which were in London last summer all the way across the Atlantic and across the continent to Seattle, and a large item for packing and taking out the exhibits and setting them up.


Samuel Simpson Sharpe: How many officials do you expect to have ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Eight or nine altogether.


Clarence Jameson: The minister has omitted a very important item, the item of entertainment.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is included in the $20 a day payment.


Mr. THOBURN.: Will the minister explain how there was such a difference in the daily allowance of the different officials at the Dublin exhibition ? For instance, we find Mr. Turcotte receiving for 290 days $3 a day, while Mr. Quinn received for 228 days $8 a day.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Turcotte is one of the permanent men, with a salary besides the living allowance of $3 a day, while the $8 a day to Mr. Quinn, one of the temporary men, included both living allowance and salary.


George Taylor: The hon. minister stated a few moments ago, in reference to Mr. Brodie, that the $84.75 was a final settlement of the account. If he turns to page D-14, he will find the following: 'James Brodie, secretary, salary, 3 months to March 31, 1908, at $1,700 per year, $425.'


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend will notice that the salary is up to the 31st March, 1908, while the $84.75 was paid in 1908-9, just after that date, and was a final settlement.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Has the department dispensed with Mr. Brodie's services ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: For what reason ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Because Mr. Brodie had been drawing a larger sum for his living allowance than he was entitled to draw.


George Taylor: The hon. minister in replying to my hon. friend from New Westminster (Mr. J. D. Taylor) gave particulars of a banquet of Mr. Hutchison which cost $670. But that was not the only banquet. There were two, as my hon. friend will see if he looks at page D-10. I find here in connection with this item at the Liege Exhibition pay to Wm. Hutchison ' less cost of banquet $670.05 paid in 1904-5 and $885.45 1905-6.'


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that that is the same banquet and the only item of that kind.


George Taylor: The minister explained a few moments ago that there was a change in the system. Formerly when the government gave a banquet the details came in and were paid for at actual cost, but my hon. friend wanted to help Mr. Hutchison and so he gave him $20 per day living expenses, to be spent just as he liked. Being an advocate of temperance, the hon. gentleman didn't want any expenditure to appear for liquor so he gave this allowance of $20 a day, out of which Mr. Hutchison spent about $10, and, no doubt, put about $10 a day in his pocket. Here was an expenditure of the people's money which ought to go to the improvement of the farmers. Then there is Miss Barry, living allowance, 61 days at $5 a day besides transportation, Montreal to Liverpool and Havre to New York, $200, and sundry travelling expenses, $157.25. This is just throwing away the money of the country. Here we have $75,000 asked for ' to pay for an exhibition in Seattle, and no doubt we will have the minister coming back for another $300,000. There will be the same story as in the case of the pavilion erected in Dublin at a cost of $39,000 and which was sold for a few hundred. What earthly use is there in spending money in the United States on exhibitions? It is high time these foreign exhibitions should cease. It is money just thrown away for the benefit of a large staff of officials such as senator's sons at $5 a day and $6 a day living expenses without any benefit to the country.


Samuel Hughes: What is shown at these exhibitions? I presume the minister shows himself at them occasionally?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not been at one for five years except at Dublin.


Samuel Hughes: I thought he must have been at Dublin judging by the large expenditure there. I notice some details of expenditure for a page or two, but surely there were other items besides what are found in these pages. I see that the Massey Harris Company are down for a binder complete at $150 and a plough at $50 and so on. Are there no other agricultural implement manufacturers recognized as well? Further down you will find an item for cheese purchased from one firm and another item 'pay to J. C. Sutherland for writing preparing and proofreading a pamphlet " The Twentieth Century in Canada," $250, and to the King's Printer for 20,000 copies of that pamphlet $723.93.' Were there any other exhibits than those recorded on these pages ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, any number of them. A great many are exhibits sent to all the exhibitions such as mineral exhibits and exhibits of a permanent character. We have found the_ greatest difficulty in getting our Mr. FISHER.
agricultural implement makers and other manufacturers to furnish us with exhibits.


Samuel Hughes: I don't see why you sent binders to Dublin.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Binders are used in Ireland.


Samuel Hughes: Not very largely.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend is entirely mistaken. Lots of people from Scotland and England went to Dublin as well as the Irish and our agricultural implement manufacturers do a very large business in the old country and Europe generally. We have to get these exhibits as best we can. Our manufacturers are so busy supplying the Canadian demand that they will not look to the outside.


Samuel Hughes: Are not the exports of these implements increasing?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, they are much larger than they were twelve years ago.


Samuel Hughes: Does not an apple tree produce more fruit ten years after it was planted than the first year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, but until it is planted it does not produce anything.


Martin Burrell: In connection with the Seattle exhibition, what kind of display is specially mentioned?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We propose to make a general exhibit. We hope to get .a lot of fruit from British Columbia and trust our hon. friends from that province will aid us in that work. Also from Eastern Canada to show that other parts of Canada produce excellent fruit as well as British Columbia. We hope also to send mineral exhibits from British Columbia and Eastern Canada. One of the officers of the Geological Survey has been arranging to get a mineral exhibit from British Columbia and hopes he will be able to succeed. A large proportion of the expenditure of these exhibitions is in connection with the general display which makes the Canadian pavilion the most attractive on the ground, such as agricultural decorations, ropes of grain heads and such things as that. These attract people into the pavilion and once there they examine the other exhibits and learn what Canada is producing.


John Allister Currie: What happened to that binder ? I do not see any reported sale ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am told we still have it. It was shown in London last year.


James Davis Taylor: Is it intended to have, at the Seattle exhibition, any pamphlet corresponding to ' The Twentieth Century in Canada ?' If so, under what auspices will it be prepared ? I ask this be-

cause in pamphlets issued under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture I have observed that there was a tendency to ignore British Columbia and to convey the impression that agriculture is confined to the portion of Canada east of the Rockies.
I can assure the minister that that is a mistake.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I agree that that would be a mistake, but I do not think that it is the case. The literature we distribute is mainly that prepared under the auspices of the Immigration Department, although we have had some prepared by ourselves.


George Taylor: Who was 'The Twentieth Century in Canada,' prepared by?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It was prepared under our auspices. It was a former pamphlet of our own which was brought down to date by Mr. J. C. Sutherland.


George Taylor: He received $250, and travelling expenses $24. Is he one of the officers of the department ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, he is a newspaper man who is well acquainted with the general resources of Canada.


Samuel Hughes: Is the Department of Agriculture in the habit of sending copies of its pamphlets to members of parliament ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not those sent to exhibitions.


Samuel Hughes: It would be a courteous thing to do.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It shall be done, if the hon. member (Mr. Hughes) wishes it.


Martin Burrell: I think the suggestion made by my hon. friend from New Westminster (Mr. J. D. Taylor) is a very good one. The information in most of the literature issued by the Immigration Department has shown a peculiar tendency to stop at the Rocky Mountains, as if there were no province west of that. And, as I have come across the gentleman employed by the Dominion government, it has seemed to me that their knowledge was limited to that part of the country east of the Rockies. Of course we desire to see the Northwest and all eastern Canada thoroughly advertised, but we believe that British Columbia also should come in for its proper share. I trust that the Minister of Agriculture will bring pressure to bear on the Department of Immigration to have British Columbia given its proper space.
Some resolutions reported.
Mr. FISHER moved the adjournment of the House.


George Taylor: What business will be taken up to-morrow ?



Sydney Arthur Fisher: Minor Bills, first, then the Civil Service resolutions, and after that Supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, February 9, 1909.