1908-07-15

QUESTIONS.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBITAILLE-by Mr. Taylor-asked:
1.	What amount was voted last year for the foundations of the dam on the St. Maurice at Grandes Piles?
2.	What amount was voted and expended during the past eight years ?
3.	For what were such amounts expended ?
4.	How much did that portion of wharf built at Grandes Piles cost?
5.	How much did that portion of wharf built at La Tuque cost ?
6.	What salary during the past four years was paid to Mr. Eucharist© Crete, of St. Jean des Piles, and what for ?
Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$40,000.	.
Voted. Expended.
2.	Previous to 1904	
1904-	5	$10,000	$1,529	201905-	6	
16,0001906-	7	
20,0001907-	8	
40,000
3 and 4. Above expenditure was for labour, timber, hardware, smithwork, dynamite, soundings, cartage, &c., in construction of wharf, costing, $3,937.50, balance being charged against St. Maurice slides and
booms.
5.	$3,502.02.
6.	In 1904-5, $2 per working day,
as captain of stone lifter.. .. $430 00 In 1905-6, three months at $75, as captain of stone lifter. . . .	225 00
In 1905-6, four months at $55, as conductor of works at [DOT]
Rapid Manigance	 220	00
In 1906-7, four months and five days at $75 per month, as
captain of stone lifter	 312	10
In 1907-8, seven months at $75, as captain of stone lifter.. ..	525 00
In 1907-8, four months at $35, as caretaker of stone lifter, dredge and plant	 140	00


$1,852 10 DREDGING AT DORVAL.
Mr. BOYER asked :: How much material has been taken out by dredging at St. Laiwrence yacht club, at Dor-val, since 1867?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works).: 59,180 cubic yards.


GRAZING LEASE OF H. RIVIERE.
Mr. S. J. JACKSON asked:: 1.	What is the exact location and area of the grazing lease held by Mr. H. Riviere n township 4, range 1, west of the 5th aneri-ian ?
2.	Did H. Riviere apply for any other lands
in township 4, range 1, west of the 5th meridian ? If so, why were these other lands not granted ?	.
3.	Has any other person any interest in this lease ?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior):: 1.	Section 25, the northeast quarter of section 26 and section 27, comprising an area of 1,440 acres.
2.	(a) Yes.
(b)	The other lands applied for were not granted Mr. Rivifire on account of a conflicting application, and a protest having been received from some ranchers living in the vicinity.
3.	I do not know.


WHARF AT MILFORD HAVEN, N.S.
Mr. BLAIN asked :: 1.	When was the wharf at Milford Haven, or the Intervale, Guysborough counity, constructed ?
2.	What has been the total expenditure on this wharf ?
3.	How many vessels have been moored at the wharf since its construction ?
4.	Who is the wharfinger or caretaker, and what has he been paid each year since its construction for services ?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	In the vears 1904-5 and 1905-6.
2.	$2,049.94.
3 and 4. Department has no information as to number of vessels moored at the wharf since its construction; no wharfinger has been appointed.


IMPORTATIONS OF FARM AND GARDEN PRODUCE AT SAULT STE. MARIE.
Mr. BOYCE asked :: 1.	What quantities of farm and garden produce were entered for consumption at the port of Sault Ste. Marie during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1908?
2.	Of what classes were suoh importations, respectively ?
3.	What duties were paid upon the same, respectively ?


Mr. BRODEUR.: 


Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: Statement showing the imports at the port of Sault Ste. Marie during the fiscal year
ended March 31, 1908, of hay, potatoes, and other farm and garden produce, showing also the duty collected thereon.
Articles.	Unit of Quantity.	Quantity,	Value.	Duty.Hay	Tons	3,837	$ 56,526	$ cts. 7,674 00Bush.	57	92	14 25Pease	10	13	1 00Eggs	Doz.	12,301	2,558	369 12Apples	Bits.	13	207	17 20Berries	Lbs.	2,224	284	44 48Cranberries	Bush.	76	219	54 75Grapes	Lbs.	4,053	444	93 06Peaches	15,290	1,065	152 90Plums	Bush.	77	441	23 10Fruits, green, n.o.p	Lbs.	8,535	492	42 67Cheese	H	4,588	990	137 64-Melons	No.	2,852	560	85 56Potatoes	Bush.	13.814	8,739	2,762 20Tomatoes, fresh	"	278	479	143 708	5,077	1,523 10


NEW APPOINTMENTS IN DEPARTMENT OP PEBLIC WORKS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBITAILLE-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
1.	Since Hon. Wm. Pugsley has held the position of Minister of Public Works, how many new appointments to office have been made in his department?
2.	What are the names and salaries of the
said appointees?	*
3.	How many French-Oanadians are in the above list, and at what salaries?
Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works) :: 1.	Sixteen.
2	and 3.
Names.	Salary.
Arthur Winslow..	..	$ 800 per annumR. A. Sauriol	
800	".T. H. Parent	1,500* K. Brown	
500	"F.	McGovern	
700	"O.	A. Beauchemin.. .'.	1,200J. N. Levesque... 1,250	"G.	Macdonald.... 1,200	"
(also $400 as private secretary
to minister) I
Allan Taylor.. ..	. . 900	per annumM. Laframboise. .	. . SOO	>*A. McLeod	.. 500	F. C. Sullivan. . . .	.. 1,500	ttE. St. Jorre	. . 600	ttJ. G. Taylor	. . 1,200	ttL. Nicolson	.. 600	ttJ. H. Wattsford. .	. . 900	ft
I have no official information as to which of the above are French-Canadians. My information, however, is that they are all Canadians.


MARINE STORES ON SUSSEX STREET, OTTAWA.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. FOWLER-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
1.	Has the Department of Marine and Fisheries a warehouse for the storage of marine stores on Sussex street? If so, how many employees are engaged in said store, and what are their names and salaries?
2.	Who is the janitor of the building, and what is his rate of pay?
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 1 and 2. The Department of Marine and Fisheries has a warehouse on the first floor of a building on Sussex street. The warehouse is under the control of the inspector of lighthouses above Montreal and the materials stored are in connection with this service. The only employee at this store is the janitor and storekeeper, Albert Cor-beil, who is paid at the rate of $50 a month. This building is also used as offices for certain branches of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
LEASE OF BROWN, BEDINGFIELD & COMPANY.


Mr. CRAWFORD asked :: 1.	How many acres of grazing land is held under lease by Brown, Bedingfield & Company? If so, how long does the lease run?
2.	What is the name and address of each member of the above hum?
3.	Is this a close lease?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior) :: 1.	(a) 55,427 acres, (b) 31st March, 1926.
2.	John Garrett Cory, Gilbert Plains, Manitoba; Joseph Harrison Brown, Pekisko,

Alberta; Frank Bedingfield, Pekisko, Alberta; Glen Campbell, Gilbert Plains, Manitoba.
3.	Yes.


IMPORTS FOR HOME CONSUMPTION.
Mr. FOSTER asked :: .
1.	What are, respectively, the values of and duties on imports into Canada for home consumption for the months of January, February, March, April, May and June, for the years 1907 and 1908?
2.	What are the value of exports of the produce of Canada from Canada for the same periods?


William Paterson: 
DREDGE ' KING EDWARD.'
Mr. DRAIN asked :: 1.	Has the dredge ' King Edward ' been employed in dredging the harbour of Lunenburg?
2.	Is the government aware that dredging operations in that harbour have obstructed access to and from private docks by the throwing up of mud?
3.	Is the government aware that this has prevailed to such an extent that in some cases vessels have been unable to get in and out of private docks for a certain period?
4.	Is this dredge or any dredge now employed in Lunenburg harbour ?
5.	In what portions of the harbour have
dredging operations been carried on, and to what extent and at what cost since January 1, 1907?	'


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works) :: 1.	Yes.
2 and 3. No.


Mr. OLIVER.: 
DUTY ON TOBACCO.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1.	What was the total amount of duty collected on tobacco for the year ending March 31, 1908, by the Department of Inland Revenue ?
2.	How much of this was due to the additional duty imposed by the legislation of 1897?


Hon. WM. TEMPLEMAN (Minister of Inland Revenue) :: 1.	$6,841,060.19.
2.	$2,143,190.60.


AMERICAN QUARANTINE ON SHEEP.
Mr. ELSON asked :: 1.	Does the United States place Canadian sheep under quarantine when going into their ooumtry? If so, for what length of time?
2.	Would it be sufficient to dip Canadian sheep once or twice during the season to remove the cause of quarantine, and allow Canadian sheep to enter the United States without quarantine restriction?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: The United States authorities have recently imposed a quarantine of thirty days on' sheep entering the United States for breeding purposes. In regard to the second question there is no alternative to the quarantine in the United States regulations and we have not yet succeeded in inducing them to make any change.


WHARFAGE DUES AT BRONTE.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1.	What was the amount of wharfage dues collected at Bronte harbour during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1908?
2.	What was the amount of rental collected at Bronte harbour during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1908, for ground on which fish houses have been built?
3.	How much of such collections has the wharfinger retained for his services, or how much has such official been paid for such services during said fiscal year?


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	$90.40.
2.	$50.
3.	$22.60.


IMPORTS OF SUGAR, 1908.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1. What was the total amount of sugar, raw and refined, respectively, imported into Canada during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1908?

2. What was the amount of duty paid on raw sugar and refined sugar during the same year, respectively?


William Paterson: 


PURCHASE OF SEED OATS IN PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND.
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior).: Some days ago a question was
	Quantity.	Value.	Duty.
			
Sugar above No. 17 D.S., in colour, and all refined sugars of what-	Lbs.	$	$ cts.ever kinds, grades or standards.	
Sugar n.o.p. not above No. 16 D.S. in colour, sugar drainings or pumpings drained in transit, melado or concentrated melado, tank bottoms and sugar concrete	
Raw sugar as described in preceeding item, when imported to be refined in Canada by Canadian sugar refiners, to the extent of twice the quantity of sugar refined during the calendar years, 1906, 1907 and 190S by such refiners from sugar produced in	32,945,709	987,454	273,819 71412,503,413	8,950,400	2,323,573 85Canada from Canadian beet root	22,056,516	491,463	115,794 71


CORRECTION OF ANSWER TO QUESTION-PURCHASE OF STEEL RAILS.
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals).: I rise to what might he called a question of privilege, to make two corrections, in answer to the questions asked by Mr. Boyce on June 18 :
1.	From what manufacturers has the National Transcontinental Railway Commission purchased steel rails for use in the construction of the railway?
2.	What were the prices per ton, respectively, paid under such contracts?
The price of steel rails purchased from the Algoma Steel Company 32,000 gross tons should read $34 per ton, and not $54 per ton, as it appears in ' Hansard.'
In answering a question by Mr. Boyce on the same subject more information was given than was asked for and the result may be confusing. The question was : 1 2 3
1.	From what manufacturers has the National Transcontinental Railway Commission purchased steel rails for use in the construction of the railway?
2.	What were the prices per ton, respectively, paid under such contracts?
3.	What 'contracts for rails are still incom-pleted ?
The correct answer Is :
1.	65,371-2 gross tons.
2.	Donlinion Iron & Steel Company-
Per ton.
Delivery at	Quebec	$35	00"	Levis	
35	00"	"	Moncton,	N.B	
35	85"	"	Edmundston, N.B	
37	00
Algoma Steel Company, Limited- Delivery at the junction of T. & N.
O. Railway	 40 00
asked by Mr. Fowler In reference to the purchase of seed grain in Prince Edward Island, but only the first two parts were answered. The balance of the question reads :
3.	How much money was paid the Prince Edward Island Railway Company and winter steamers for freight on said oats?
4.	When were the oats inspected, by whom, and what was the cost of inspection?
5.	What was the price charged to the farmers of fhe West for these oats?
6.	What commissions, if any, were paid, and to whom paid?
The answers to the other parts are :
3.	The freight charges on the Prince Edward Island Railway and winter steamers on said oats were paid by Jos. Read and Company. The amount is not known to the department.
4.	Between February 25 and March 16, 1908-
S.	J. Moore, seed inspector for the maritime provinces-No additional cost for inspection.
5.	Eighty-five cents per bushel.
6.	No commissions paid.


CORRECTION IN VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS.
Mr. BERGERON.: I find in the Votes and Proceedings an error which might be serious. In the report of the money voted day before yesterday I find the name of .Tules Chaconguay as junior second-class clerk at $800 per annum. The name in the estimates was Evanturel. The circumstances stated and the amount are the same, but the name is different, whether intentionally or not I do not know.


Mr. SPEAKER.: It is an error.


RAILWAY SUBSIDIES.
Hon.  G. P.@: GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House

do to-morrow go into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolutions :
1.	Resolved, that the government of Canada may aid and assist the construction of a line of railway of the Edmonton, Yukon and Pacific Company, hereinafter called 'the company/ from a point on the company's line of railway, or on the line of railway of the Edmonton and Slave Lake Railway Company, at or near Edmonton or Strathcona, in the province of Alberta, thence, in a generally western direction, to the coal areas, situated at or near the Brazeau river and the headwaters of the McLeod river, for a distance not exceeding one hundred and fifty miles, by guaranteeing the principal and interest of the bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities, hereinafter called ' securities,' secured as hereinafter mentioned, of the said company, or of its successors by amalgamation as hereinafter provided, to the extent of thirteen thousand dollars per mile for the first fifty miles of the line so aided, and, for the remainder of the said line, to the amount of twenty-five thousand dollars per mile, not exceeding in all one hundred and fifty miles, the interest upon the said securities to be at the rate of three and one-half per cent per annum, payable half-yearly, the principal to bo payable in fifty years.
2.	Resolved, that the said securities so guaranteed shall be secured by a deed or deeds of trust, by way of mortgage or charge, to a trustee or trustees, approved of by the Governor in Council, and such deed or deeds of trust shall respectively grant a first mortgage or charge upon the said line of railway so aided, and the right of way, station grounds, or other real estate and interest therein, buildings and other structures and improve inents, rolling stock and equipment, plant, machinery, tools, supplies, materials, and other personal properties, present and future, acquired for the purposes of the said line so aided, and in connection with operating, repairing and maintaining it, and the tolls, incomes and revenues of the company arising and to arise from the said line, and the rights, privileges, franchises and powers of the company now or hereafter held with respect to and in connection with the said line and the operation maintenance and repair thereof.
3.	Resolved, that the deed or deeds of trust shall also create a mortgage, or charge, upon all other lines of railway and properties of the company, and upon all the property and franchises, tools, incomes and revenues connected therewith, to rank thereon next after the bonds, debentures, debenture stocks or other securities theretofore issued by the company, and next after any existing deed or deeds of trust by way of mortgage or charge securing them : provided always that, with respect to lines of railway or parts thereof now constructed and in operation, for the mileage of which no bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities have yet been issued, the company may issue first mortgage securities at a rate not exceeding twenty thousand dollars per mile, and may secure them by deed or deeds of trust by way of first mortgage or charge, having priority over the mortgage or charge created by the deed or deeds of trust hereinbefore mentioned.


Mr. GRAHAM.: 4.	Resolved that the kind of securities to be guaranteed as aforesaid and the forms thereof, and the form and terms of the deed or deeds securing them, and the times and manner of the issue of securities and the disposition of the moneys to be raised thereon, by sale, pledge, or otherwise, pending the expenditure of such moneys for the purpose of the line of railway so aided, and the forms and manner of guarantee, shall be such as the Governor in Council approves of, and such terms, provisions and conditions may be included in such deed or deeds of trust as the Governor in Council deems expedient or necessary.
5.	Resolved, that the said guarantee shall be signed by the Minister of Finance or such officer as is. designated by the Governor in Council to sign it ; and upon being so signed the government shall become liable as guarantor for the payment of the principal and interest of the securities so guaranteed according to the tenor thereof, and the said payments shall form a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue Fund.
6.	Resolved, that the rates and tolls charged by the company upon any of its lines shall not in any case be higher than the rates or tolls fixed in the contract to be made between the government of Canada and the company.
7.	Resolved, that any moneys paid by the government of Canada under any guarantee herein provided for, shall be held to be paid in discharge of the liability of the government and not in discharge of the liability of the company under the securities so guaranteed, or under any deed of trust securing them, and the moneys so paid shall be held to be still secured by the said securities and deed of trust, and the government shall be subrogated in and to all the rights of the holders of such securities, the interest upon or the principal of which has been paid by the government, and the government shall, with respect to all moneys so paid, be in all respects in the position of security holders with respect to whose securities default has been made in payment to the extent of the moneys paid by the government.
8.	Resolved, that the guarantee of securities, as herein provided, for the said line of railway shall not be given until the Edmonton, Yukon ' and Pacific Railway Company and the Canadian Northern Railway Company have amalgamated into one company under the name of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, nor until the amalgamated company, as successors by such amalgamation, has become, as maker of the securities, liable for the payment of the principal and interest of the securities so to be guaranteed with respect to such line of railway.
9.	Resolved, that the decision of the Governor in Council as to the length of the mileage of the said line of railway so to be aided, shall, for the purpose hereof, be final. *
10.	Resolved, that the books of the company shall at all times be open for inspection for and on behalf of the government by any person named in that behalf by the Governor in Council or the Minister of Finance.
He said :	His Excellency the Governor
General having been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution commends it

to the favourable consideration of this House.


George Eulas Foster: Will there be any memorandum for distribution to the members giving particulars of these various cases or are we to proceed to-morrow with no information except the meagre information that can possibly be given by the minister?


George Perry Graham: I will have a memorandum prepared ; I have a map with all the lines in both resolutions and forms of application and particulars. I shall have this information laid on the table this afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Hon.  G. P.@: GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that t.he House do to-morrow go into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolutions :
1.	Resolved, That the government of Canada may aid and assist the construction of the lines of railway, set out below, of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, hereinafter called ' the company/ by guaranteeing the principal and interest of the bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities, hereinafter called ' securities/ of the said company, to the extent of thirteen thousand dollars per mile of the said lines of railway so added, respectively, interest on the said securities to be at the rate of three and one-half per cent per annum, payable half-yearly, and the principal to be payable in fifty years.
2.	Resolved, That the said securities so guaranteed shall be secured by one or more deeds of trust, by way of mortgage or charge, to a trustee or trustees, approved of by the Governor in Council, and such deed or deeds of trust shall respectively grant a first mortgage or charge upon the line or lines of railway included therein, and the rights of way, station grounds and other real estate and interests therein, buildings and other structures and improvements, rolling stock and equipment, plant, machinery, tools, supplies, materials and other personal properties, present and future, acquired for the purposes of the said lines so aided, and in connection with operating repairing and maintaining them, and the tolls, incomes, and revenues of the company arising and to rise from the said lines and the rights, privileges, franchises and powers of the company now or hereafter held with respect to and in connection with the said lines, and the operation, maintenance and repair thereof.
3.	Resolved, That the said deed or deeds of trust shall also create a mortgage or charge, next after the charges existing thereon, upon all the lines and branch lines of railway of the company now in operation and upon all the property and franchises connected therewith, and upon all the tolls, incomes and revenues derived therefrom by the company, and also next after any bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities heretofore issued or hereafter to be issued by the company to raise the moneys required from time to time to meet the expenditures heretofore made or hereafter to be made -for and in connection
with the company's yard and freight terminals in Winnipeg, and the expenditures under the agreement -respecting Winnipeg terminals, set out in chapter 52 of the Statutes of Canada of 1907, -made between the company, the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, and His Majesty the King, and after the deeds of trust, mortgages, pledges and charges heretofore given or hereafter to be given to secure them: provided always that, with respect to lines or parts thereof now constructed and in operation, for the mileage of which no bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities have yet been issued, the company may issue first mortgage securities at a rate not exceeding fifteen thousand dollars per mile, and may secure them by deed or deeds of trust by way of first mortgage or charge, having priority over the mortgage or charge to be created by the deed or deeds of trust hereinbefore mentioned.
4.	Resolved, That the kind of securities to be guaranteed as herein provided and the forms thereof, and the form and terms of the deed or deeds of trust securing them, and the times and manner of the issue of securities and the disposition of the moneys to be raised thereon, by sale, pledge or otherwise, pending the expenditure of such moneys for the purposes of the lines of railway respectively so aided, and the forms and manner of guarantee shall be such as the Governor in Council approves of, and such terms, provisions and conditions may be included in such deed or deeds of trust as the Governor in Council deems expedient or necessary.
5.	Resolved, That the said guarantee shall he signed by the Minister of Finance or such officer as is designated by the Governor in Council to sign it, and upon being so signed the government shall become liable as guarantor for the payment of the principal and interest of the securities so guaranteed according to the tenor thereof, and the said payment shall form a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue Fund.
6.	Resolved, That the rates and tolls charged by the company upon any of its lines shall not in any case be higher than the rates or tolls fixed in the contract to be made between the government of Canada and the company.
7.	Resolved. That any money paid by the government of Canada, under any guarantee herein provided for shall he held to he paid in discharge of the liability of the government and not in discharge of the liability of the company under the securities guaranteed or under any deed of trust securing them, and the moneys so paid shall he held to be still secured by the said securities and deed of trust and the government shall be subrogated in and to all the rights of the holders of such securities the interest tipon or the principal of which has been paid by the government, and the government shall with respect to all moneys so paid he in all respects in the position of security holders with respect to whose securities default has been made in payment to the extent of the moneys paid by the government.
8.	Resolved, That the decision of the Governor in Council as to the length of the mileage of any of the said lines of railway shall, for the purposes thereof he final.
9.	Resolved, That the hooks of the company shall at all times he open to inspection for and on behalf of the government by any person

named in that behalf by the Governor in Council or the Minister of Finance.
10.	Resolved. That the lines of railway above referred to are the following:-
1.	A line of railway from or from near Regina, in the province of Saskatchewan, to the westerly boundary of Manitoba, there connecting with the company's line to Brandon, not exceeding one hundred and fifty-two miles.
2.	A line of railway from or from near Saskatoon, in the province of Saskatchewan, thence running in a southerly and western direction tmvards Calgary, not exceeding one hundred and seventy-five miles.
3.	A line of railway from or from near Prince Albert, in the' province of Saskatchewan, by way of North Battleford and Battle-ford Junction, to or near to Battleford^ excluding, however, the mileage between North Battleford and Battleford Junction, the distance, exclusive of the last-mentioned mileage not exceeding one hundred and thirty-two miles.
4.	A line of railway from the Thunder Hill line to the company's railway at or near the westerly boundary of the province of Manitoba, running in a gen3rally western direction towards Rosthern, a distance not exceeding one hundred miles.
5.	An extension of the Rossburn line from the western boundary of the province of Manitoba, in a northwesterly direction, a distance not exceeding fifty miles.
He said :	His Excellency the Governor
General having been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution commends it to the favourable consideration of this House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Hon.  G. P.@: GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House do to-morrow go into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that it is expedient to provide as
follows:
1. The Governor in Council may grant a subsidy of $3,200 per mile towards the construction of each of the undermentioned lines of railway (not exceeding in any case the number of miles hereinafter respectively stated) which shall not cost more on the average than $15,000 per mile for the mileage subsidized, and towards the construction of each of the said lines of railway, not exceeding the mileage hereinafter stated, which shall cost more on the average than $15,000 per mile for the mileage subsidized, a further subsidy beyond the sum of $3,200 per mile of fifty per cent on so much of the average cost of the mileage subsidized as is in excess of $15,000 per mile such subsidy not exceeding in the whole the sum of $6,100 per mile:
Revotes.
1.	To the Kettle River Valley Railway Company, for a line of railway from a point at or near Grand Forks to a point fifty miles up the north fork, and east or west fork of the north fork, of Kettle river, in lieu of the subsidy granted by chapter 43 of 1906, section 1, item 39; not exceeding 50 miles.
2.	For a line of railway from Owen Sound,


George Perry Graham: in Council on the report of the Minister of Railways and Canals, and specified in each case in a contract between the company and the said minister, which contract the minister, with the approval of the Governor in Counoil, is hereby empowered to make. The location also of such subsidized lines and Siridges shall he subject to the approval of the Governor in Council.
6.	The granting of such subsidies and the receipt thereof by the respective companies shall he subject to the condition that the Hoard of Railway Commissioners for Canada may at all times provide and secure to other *companies such running powers, _ traffic arrangements and other rights as will afford to all railways connecting with the railways and bridges so subsidized reasonable and proper facilities in exercising such running power, fair and reasonable traffic arrangements with connecting companies, and equal mileage rates between all such connecting railways; and the said hoard shall have absolute control, at all times, over the rates and tolls to be levied and taken by any of the companies, or upon any of the railways and bridges hereby subsidized; Provided always that any decision of the said hoard made under this section may he at any time varied, changed or rescinded by the Governor in Council, as he deems just and proper.
7.	Every company receiving a subsidy under this Act, its successors and assigns, and any person or company controlling or operating the Tailway or portion of railway subsidized liereinunder, shall each year furnish to the government of Canada transportation for men, supplies, materials and mails over the portion of the lines in respect of which it has received such subsidy and, whenever required, shall furnish mail cars properly equipped for such mail service; and such transportation and service shall he performed at such rates as are agreed upon between the minister of the department of the government for which such service is being performed and the company performing it, and, in case of disagreement, then at such rates as are approved by the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada; and in or towards payment for such charges the government of Canada shall be credited by the company with a sum equal to three per cent per annum on the amount ot the subsidy received by the company hereunder.
8.	As respects all railways and bridges for which subsidies are hereby granted, the company at any time owning or operating any of the railways or bridges shall when required, produce and exhibit to the Minister of Railways and Canals, or any person appointed by him, all books, accounts and vouchers showing the cost of constructing the railway or bridge, the cost of operating it, and the earnings thereof.
9.	The Governor in Council may make it a condition of the grant of the subsidies herein provided that the company shall lay the railway with new steel rails and fastenings made in Canada and; shall purchase all materials and supplies required for the construction of the railway and bridges and the rolling stock for the first equipment of the railway, from Canadian producers, if such rails, fastenings, materials, supplies and equipment are procurable in Canada of suitable quality and upon


George Perry Graham: terms as favourable as elsewhere, of which the Minister of Railways and Canals shall be the judge.
10.	Whenever a contract has been duly entered into with a company for the construction of any line of railway hereby subsidized, the Minister of Railways and Canals, at the request of the company, and upon the report of the chief engineer of the Department of Railways and Canals, and his certificate that he has made careful examination of the surveys, plans and profile of the whole line so contracted for, and has duly considered the physical characteristics of the country to be traversed and the means of transport available for construction, naming the reasonable and probable cost of such construction, may, with the authorization of the Governor in Council, enter into a supplementary agreement, fixing definitely the maximum amount of the subsidy to be paid, based upon the said certificate of the chief engineer and providing that the company shall he entitled to be paid as the minimum, the ordinary subsidy of $3,200 per mile, together with sixty per cent of the difference between the amount so fixed and the said $3,200 per mile, if any; and the balance, forty per cent, shall be paid only on completion of the whole work subsidized, and in so far as the actual cost, as finally determined by the Governor in Council upon the recommendation of the Minister of Railways and Canals, and upon the report and certificate of the said chief engineer entitles the company thereto ; Provided always-
(a)	that the cost, as certified, is not less on the average than $18,000 per mile for the whole mileage subsidized;
(b)	that no payment shall he made except upon a certificate of the chief engineer that the work done is up to the standard specified in the company's contract;
(c)	that m no case shall the subsidy exceed the sum of $6,100 per mile.
He said :	His Excellency the Governor
General having been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution commends it to the favourable consideration of this House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Hon.  G. P.@: GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House do to-morrow go into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that it is expedient ito authorize the government of Canada, pursuant to the agreement between it and the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, dated the 19th day of October, 1903, and set out in the schedule to chapter 54 of the statutes of 1903, to exercise the right to take over the whole of the undertaking, assets, property, and franchises of the Quebec Railway and Bridge Company, upon the terms and conditions set forth in the said agreement and the said Act, and that the moneys required to pay therefor be appropriated for that purpose out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

He said :	His Excellency the Governor
General having been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution commends it to the favourable consideration of this House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day being called :
Mr. 'BERGERON. When may we expect the French version of the Civil Service Report wThich has been at the Printing Bureau I think for a month now? I would be glad to have it before the close of the session.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I shall have to inquire in what position it is and will tell my hon. friend to-morrow.


George Eulas Foster: I would again call the attention of the Prime Minister to a question I put yesterday with reference to a return from the Justice Department.


Wilfrid Laurier: I shall again call it to the attention of the minister.


THE BRITISH CATTLE EMBARGO.
Mr. ARMSTRONG.: Before the orders of the day are called I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he has noticed an article in the Montreal ' Gazette ' referring to a large mass meeting held in London at which a strong resolution was passed urging His Majesty's government to remove the cattle embargo, and whether he intends to take any action in the matter.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not noticed the article referred to, though I have noticed some reference in the public press to such a meeting.


THE PARDONING POWER.
Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH (Minister of Justice).: I would like to answer a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) in regard to a return in reference to the exercise of the pardoning power. I explained when the matter was last mentioned in the House that the preparation of that return necessarily involved months of time. I may say that a man has been specially engaged for the work, which is of such a character that it is not everybody who can do it, and he has been working at it continuously now for some months, and expects to be finished in the course of the next two or three months.


CANADA-GERMANY TRADE RELATIONS.
Mr. LALOR.: I have received a letter from Germany stating that there is a rumour there that Canada and Germany are about to enter on closer trade relations. I would like to ask about that.


Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance).: Occasionally conversations on so important a question naturally take place, but no official action has been taken, and I think I can say to my hon. friend that there is nothing contemplated at this moment which would justify that statement.


THE WOOLLEN INDUSTRY
Francis Ramsey Lalor: In view of the fact that a number of deputations have lately waited on the government to urge increased duties for the woollen and knitted goods industries,
I would like to ask if the government contemplate makng any change in the tariff in that direction.


William Stevens Fielding: The Prime Minister answered that question two days ago.
SUPPLY :	INQUIRY FOR RETURN.
Mr. FIELDING moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: I wish again to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to a return of whch I have already spoken twice. Last evening the hon. gentleman told me that the return had been prepared and had been lost. I am informed by the hon. member for Queens, P.E.I., who asked me to bring the matter to the atten-on of the minister, that he received exactly the same reply several days ago. The extraordinary delay and the replies of that kind repeated at such long intervals, lead us to believe that we are being humbugged in this matter.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It will be brought down to-uay.


Robert Laird Borden: I trust that the hon. gentleman will see that it is, because if it is not brought down to-day the date of prorogation will be very seriously interfered with.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is no need of the hon. gentleman taking that stand, because there has been no intention on my part to be discourteous towards him-quite the reverse. The return was sent to me some time ago and was lost, but it will be brought down to- day.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think 1 should be troubled with the necessity of bringing matters of this kind to the atten-of the minister. I only brought this to his attention because members on this side of the House have come to me over and over again and said that they could get no satisfaction in regard to this return, and I was obliged to take the matter up myself. I should not be required to do that. Attention should have been given to it in the first instance. It has been pending for more than six months.
130S3


THE FRENCH TREATY.
Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: 1 would like to have a definite answer from the government in regard to the French treaty-whether the Senate of France has accepted it, and, if not, where we stand in regal'd to the treaty between France and Canada which existed before this one was negotiated. If this treaty is not ratified by France, shall we have no treaty or the one we had before?


William Stevens Fielding: The hon. gentleman is perhaps aware from the public press that the treaty, though approved by the French Chamber of Deputies, has not been approved by the Senate. I am advised that the French Senate has adjourned and will not meet again for some weeks. We still anticipate that the treaty will be ratified, though we are not in a position to make any statement in regard to that. We are aware that the French government are making every effort to secure the French Senate's approval of the treaty, and we hope that in the end that approval will be given. In the meantime the old treaty remains in force. Until the formal approval of the new treaty by the French Chambers and the parliament of Canada takes place the matter stands precisely as before-as if nothing had been done.


George Eulas Foster: I would understand, then, that no steps will be taken looking towards the establishment of the commercial steam line between France and Canada until this matter has been finally settled.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not (think any contract has been made yet.


George Eulas Foster: The minister knows that no contract has been made yet. That was not what I suggested. What I suggested was that until it is seen whether or not the French Chambers will ratify the treaty, I suppose that no steps will be taken to establish that line. It was understood that that was to be consequent on the treaty.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Of course, we shall have the service as it has been in previous years.


George Eulas Foster: I am not asking the minister either in reference to tire line as it has been. I am asking with reference to the vote which puts into the power of the government a centain amount of money for a service contingent on the new treaty going into effect, and what I asked the minister was if he proposed to put that into operation whether the new treaty is confirmed or not.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There was a service established in previous years, as my hon. friend knows, between France and Canada. That was to expire in the month of May last; but this year the same service is supplied as in previous years under the vote taken some time ago. But for that (there would have been no service. I will bring before the Minister of Trade and Commerce Mr. R. L. BORDEN
the question of my hon. friend. I have never discussed the question very fully with the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but T do not think it is his intention to make a contract for a certain number of years if the treaty is not ratified.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has the arrangement with the old company been renewed ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For this year, at the same rate, $5,500 per trip.


ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
Mr. R. A. PRINGLE (Stormont).: I would like to ask the Minister of Railways and Canals if any arrangement has been made by which the large manufacturing establishments at Cornwall will get a greater amount of water for power than they are now getting. I understand that since the unfortunate break in the canal they have been cut down to a very small amount, w3hich puts them at a great disadvantage. I recognize that the navigation is the first point to be considered, but I understand that without any great additional expense the channel could be widened in such a way that the cotton mills and the other mills could have a larger amount of water than they are now getting. I may say that the loss of power means to one industry alone an additional expenditure of some $15,000 a month. I saw that a deputation waited on the Minister of Railways and Canals the day before yesterday in reference to this matter, and I want to know if any arrangement has been made by which the mills can get more water.


George Perry Graham: As my hon. friend says, the restoration of navigation is the supreme object. That is being done as quickly as possible. We cannot allow anything .to be done that is at all liable to place us at the risk of another accident of that kind. There is a large dam of a horseshoe shape. One of the difficulties found is if the current is allowed to be made fairly swift steamers coming down are liable to strike that dam, and it might be carried away and we would be in trouble again.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: The currents will go away from the dam towards the mill.


George Perry Graham: Coming from the west is the difficulty. I discussed with the engineer last night the whole situation. He informed me that the curve in the canal was too sharp. I went over a rough sketch, and we decided it would be wise in the interests of navigation, apart from any consideration of the mills altogether, to widen out in one or two places so as to make the turn for vessels a little easier and ensure the safety of the cribwork as

well as improving navigation. He has also put in a crib west of the dam, so that vessels will strike the crib first and avoid the dam. It would be in the interests of navigation to widen out the channel in one or two spots, and that would also give the mills more water.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Has the hon. gentleman inquired into the accuracy of the statement made that about a year ago the department was notified of the liability of a break at this point in the Cornwall canal? It is understood that Captain Donnelly had made that statement.


George Perry Graham: The department are not able to find any such communication. The bank all along certain parts of the canal is a difficult bank to protect, and certain opinions have been expressed verbally, but I never heard any suggestion that there was danger of a break at this particular point.


THANKSGIVING DAY.
Mr. KEMP.: A large number of our citizens think it desirable to have Thanksgiving Day on Monday instead of Thursday. Many people would like to visit their friends or relatives at a distance, and on that account would prefer Monday to Thursday. I have in mind particularly the commercial travellers. They are much in favour of the change, because that will enable them to pass the holiday with their families.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have received representations on this subject from several organizations, especially the commercial travellers. They have been informed officially that this year Thanksgiving Day will be on Monday instead of Thursday.
1 boar two years old	 $180
1 boar yearling	 160
1 boar yearling	 80
1 boar under one	year	
651 boar under one	year	
801 boar under seven months	
351	brood sow	4 yearly sows	
[DOT] [DOT] [DOT]	1603	sows, eight	months	
2552	hogs, eight	months	
321 hog, eight	months (died)	
161 sow (died)	
150
This amount was paid to Mr. Brethour by the department on the 5th of April 1905. The department ordered a veterinary surgeon to go to Point Edward and examine the hogs when in quarantine. In a letter to Dr. Rutherford, Director Veterinary General, Ottawa, addressed to him by Mr. Perdue, I find the following :
Chatham, November 21, 1901.
It is a question hard to decide whether the bogs contracted the disease while at St. Louis or at Point Edward. Dr. Brown is of the opinion that these hogs became infected while at St. Louis, as one was coughing when it arrived at Point Edward, and was the first to succumb to the disease. The second hog that died I examined and found one of his lungs almost entirely hepatized.
Mr. Brethour applied for compensation and on December 21, 1901, the Minister of Agriculture wrote him as follows :
Dear Mr. Brethour,-I have yours of December 21 with reference to the hogs slaughtered at the Prince Edward quarantine. I note what you say with regard to the exposure of your hogs and will carefully consider the whole matter with Dr. Rutherford. On the first blush, however, I cannot see any possibility of paying compensation.
Yours very truly,


SYDNEY FISHER.
Mr. R. BLAIN (Peel).: I wish to direct the attention of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) to a matter in connection with his department. During the St. Louis exhibition, held in 1904, two gentlemen from Western Ontario, in connection with their own private business, exhibited hogs at that exhibition. On their return to Canada these hogs were placed in quarantine at Point Edward. While there they were slaughtered under instructions of the department. In the Auditor General's Report of 1906 I find, at page D-10, that Mr. J. E. Brethour, Burford, Ont. received compensation for his eighteen hogs, amounting to $1,533, and that Messrs. Douglas & Sons, Mitchell, Ont. were paid $932 for twelve hogs slaughtered on account of disease. 1 have before me, in the return brought down, the prices paid. On November 4, 1904, they were slaughtered, and the compensation allowed Mr. Brethour was as follows :
Although I have the correspondence before me, I shall refrain from putting on 1 Hansard ' any further extracts from it, as our time is very limited. I now find a list of the hogs owned by Messrs. Douglas & Son. These were the prices paid by the minister for compensation to this firm :
Lady Amherst	
Letty	
Blain's last	
Maplehurst Queen	
Full sister to above	
Maplecliff Pointer	
Maplehearst Leader	
Thoroughbred boar	
Thoroughbred boar under 6 months. Thoroughbred boar under 6 months.
Store hog	
Store hog

These gentlemen made application to the department for compensation. I have read a letter written by the minister that on

examination of the matter, ' at first blush ' he could not find that any compensation was due or could be paid by the department to Mr. Brethour. But in the correspondence I notice a letter from the hon. gentleman who represents South Perth (Mr. G. H. McIntyre) in which one of these gentlemen hve. It Is as follows ;
St. Marys, Ont., December 13, 1901. Hon. Sydny Fisher,
Minister of Agriculture, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-Mr. Dunbar has asked me to forward you the inclosed letter from him in reference to a very unfortunate loss of valuable stock that has come to the Messrs. Dou glas, who were Canadian exhibitors at the St. Louis fair.
I am not aware of your departmental re gulations in regard to the destruction of such diseased animals, and in regard to recouping owners for loss.
The public value of the enterprise the owners had been engaged in, and the special features in connection with the contracting of the disease, would seem to call for the most favourable consideration of the case that you can fairly give.
Yours sincerely,


GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
[Stage Direction]
Messrs. Douglas & Son had their case In the hands of a lawyer, Mr. Dunbar, of Mitchell. He gets in touch with the sitting member of the county who <Lius writes to the minister on behalf of these gentlemen. And, after some little correspondence-and an alteration in the Act, I may say-compensation at these enormous prices is paid by the minister. I have statements before me from other veterinaries who examined these hogs, and in view of these it seems surprising that compensation should be awarded. On November 3, 1904, a letter was written to Mr. M. B. Perdue, V.S., by Dr. Rutherford in the course of which he says, 'It is very important that the diagnosis should bo placed beyond question as the animals are valuable and under the regulations it will be impossible to pay compensation. The director general telegraphed to Arthur Brown, V.S., Sarnia, as follows :
Ottawa, November 3, 1901. Arthur Brown, Y.S.
Keep Douglas hogs strictly isolated. Will send consulting veterinary before ordering slaughter as compensation impossible.
3.	G. RUTHERFORD.
I shall not go at length into this case, but I would like to point out what the rega lations say as to payment of compensation :
1.	Hogs affected with hog cholera or swine plague, or which have been in contact with or close proximity to hogs affected with either of the said diseases should on an order signed by a duly appointed inspector of the Department of Agriculture be forthwith slaughtered and the carcasses disposed of as in such order prescribed.
5. The Minister of Agriculture is hereby authorized to order compensation to he paid Mr. BLAIN.
to the owners of such hogs at the rate set forth in subsection 2 of section 12 of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, 1903, as amended by chapter 6 of the Statutes of 1904.
The amended statute provides as follows :
4. In all cases, the value of the animal should be determined by the minister or by seme person appointed by him, but should not exceed, in the case of grade animals, one hundred and fifty dollars for each horse, sixty dollars for each head of cattle, and fifteen dollars for each pig or sheep; and in the case of pure-bred animals, three hundred dollars for each horse, one hundred and fifty dollars for each head of cattle, and fifty dollars for each pig or sheep.
So you will see that if compensation was allowed at all under the Act, $50 is the highest price that could be paid by the minister for any bog. In this case the bon. gentleman has paid Messrs Douglas & Son $175 and Mr. Brethour as high as $180.
At this stage of the session, time is so piecious that I will not dwell upon the case. I have mentioned the fact to show how some of the money is going. In view of such payments the people will not be surprised that the public expenditure is increasing every year. The Minister of Agriculture Is something of a czar in his department; whatever he says must go; if he says the price to be paid is $180 it is paid, even though the regulations and the law say that $50 is the highest price that may be paid. I suppose the minister will answer that these gentlemen were contributing to the public good and adding to the reputation of Canada in respect of swine breeding. Well, these gentlemen are private dealers in western Ontario. The department did not ask them to exhibit their hogs at the St. Louis exhibition as a government exhibit; they sent them of their own free will. The correspondence here points out that hog cholera was to be found at the St. Louis exhibition and one of these lots of hogs was close to swine affected with that disease. Judging from the correspondence I am led to believe that the bogs contracted the disease not at Point Edward in quarantine, but in the St. Louis exhibition. The minister, when the matter was first brought to [DOT]his attention, said that 'at first blush' compensation could not be given. I do not know how many blushes it took before he felt free to pay these enormous prices. Then, if these gentlemen had a right to compensation, they did not require a lawyer to present their case to the department, nor did they have to ask the influence of the gentleman who represents the county. Why should that hon. gentleman be requested to interfere ? Taking it altogether, it seems to me there was party politics in this matter and pay, because of this these gentlemen must he paid their price. I do not know what their politics are-nor do I care; that is not tlv; question before us. But I think the farmers of this country will think that such prices
130S9

as $175 are to be regarded as pretty excessive to be paid by the government for com pensation for bogs that were sent for exhibition as a private business enterprise. I await an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture of the excessive prices that he has ordered to be paid these gentlemen contrary to his own Act.
Sydney Arthur Fisher: I regret that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) did not give me a little earlier notice of his intention to bring this subject forward. I merely got a slip of paper a few minutes ago that !he was going to deal with the subject


Richard Blain: I rather apologize for the short notice.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The consequence is that I cannot answer the details of the case. I regret that, because I am sure there is a sufficient explanation to be given in regard to it. I have some memory of the case, but, not having had the opportunity to refresh my memory by reference to the files of the department, I cannot be sure of the details. The case was a very peculiar one, and that is why, when I first looked into it, I did not know whether there was any possibility of compensation or not. As a matter of fact, Air. Brethour and Douglas & Sons are well known hog breeders in the western part of Ontario. They were urged, not only by my department, but by the Department of Agriculture of the province of Ontario, to exhibit at the St. Louis exhibition. Efforts were made to get the stock breeders of Canada to do so, and assistance was given to them in taking their stock to St. Louis for the purpose of making a creditable showing of this country in the competition of live stock there. The result was that Canada did make a very creditable showing. My hon. friend said it was a matter of private business. 1 take exception to that. I think these men were public spirited citizens, and they were urged to take their stock to St. Louis.


Richard Blain: Did the department solicit these gentlemen to exhibit their hogs at St. Louis as a public enterprise ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Speaking from memory, I have no doubt that they did, though there may be nothing in the correspondence to that effect. At the same time, it is a well known fact that the Live Stock Commissioner of my department at that time went amongst the breeders of Canada and urged their taking part in the St. Louis exhibition, and the department went so far as to offer to pay extra prizes so as to encourage them to do so, and in order to get a creditable exhibit of Canadian live stock at that great exhibition.


Richard Blain: The department did not pay the expenses of taking these hogs to
the St. Louis exhibition. Does he say they did ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am under the impression that we paid the expenses besides.


Richard Blain: There is not a word about it in the correspondence.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: AVell, I am speaking from memory. If my hon. friend had given me an opportunity of looking into the matter I would have been better supplied with the facts than I am now. But I do say emphatically that the department did make arrangements by which we added the live stock breeders of Canada in sending their stock to St. Louis ; just to what extent and in what manner 1 would have to refer to the files of the department to say. My hon. friend is looking up the files, there may be nothing about it there.


Richard Blain: There is a letter addressed to the minister by Air. Dunbar, the lawyer having charge of this case, who says :
Had the exhibit been strictly a government exhibit, so that the government would have had charge of the transportation of the animals, I have no doubt that AIes9rs. Douglas & Sons would be compensated in full.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is true. But it was not a government exhibit, the government had not charge of the animals ; at the same time the government did assist pecuniarily these gentlemen to send their stock to St. Louis. What my hon. friend says does not in any way militate against my statement. The fact that it does not appear in that file is easily explained. The matter of sending stock to St. Louis was managed by a special officer attached to the St. Louis exhibition staff, and had no concern whatever with the veterinary branch of my department who had to deal with the question of paying compensation for this stock. I fancy that anything concerning that would not appear on those files. I am speaking from memory, but at the same time I am pretty sure that I am correct. However, the hon. gentleman says that these gentlemen were engaged in a private enterprise. They were to the ex-tejnt that it was their stock they were handling, but I state again that they sent it to St. Louis on the request of the Department of Agriculture of the Dominion, and also the Department of Agriculture of the province of Ontario, who were desirous of seeing Canada well represented at the St. Louis exhibition. Now, so far as concerns the compensation paid, I have not the details, I have not the figures here. I take the figures my hon. friend gave, but I cannot discuss them because I have not got them before me. I can well believe that if more was paid than would have been paid under the ordinary operation of the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act, it was because of the exceptional circum-

stances and the exceptional character of the stock. This stock for which compensation was paid was the stock that practically swept the hoards at St. Louis and took the prizes at that great international exhibition.


Richard Blain: Who received the prize money?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The men who owned the stock got the prize money, of course, who else would get it ? They sent their stock there, and did a credit to Canada which was of incalculable advantage to the whole stock industry of this country. I do not dispute the figures the hon. gentleman gave me, he need not hold them up, I daresay they are exact. All I say is that I have not been able to verify them. However I accept his statement that those figures are correct, and that the money was paid. But it must have been paid in consequence of the exceptional circumstances and the exceptional character of the stock.


Mr. CLEMENTS.: I understood the hon. minister to say that the Ontario government paid part of the compensation to these gentlemen who took the hogs over to St. Louis.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I said nothing of the kind. I said that the Ontario government encouraged these men to send their stock to St. Louis for the purpose of making a creditable representation of Ontario stock, but 1 did not say that the Ontario government paid any compensation. I do not know whether they did or not, but I do not believe they did, because full compensation appears to have been paid by my department, and I know Mr. Brethour and Douglas & Son well enough to know that they would not ask any other government for compensation after getting it from this government. They are not that kind of men. My hon. friend has spoken about political influence. I believe that the hon. member for the riding of Perth wrote me a letter simply drawing attention to the fact that one of his constituents, or some people whom he knew, had suffered in this way. But there was nothing improper in that letter, nothing of a political nature. It was the kind of a letter that any member of this House ought to write in the interest of his constituents, and if he had not done so at the request of his constituents, he would have been wanting in his duty to the people whom he represents in this House. But so far as politics are concerned, I do not know the politics of Douglas & Sons. I do happen to know the politics of Mr. Brethour, a gentleman of w!hom I have the highest opinion as a man and as a breeder of hogs, and he is a well known Conservative. He has been asked to be the Conservative candidate in his constituency, in a certain election some years Mr. FISHER.
ago. Mr. Brethour was the one who took up this correspondence and dealt with it before Mr. Douglas ever came near us. It was Mr. Brethour who made the first request to the department, it was Mr. Brethour who made the representations to me. It is tr-ue that Dougal & Sons were with him, it is true they suffered with him and they got compensation with him. It was Mr. Brethour who came to see me about the matter before the hon. member for Perth ever made any representations to me at all.


Richard Blain: Why was it necessary to place the case in the hands of a lawyer to get compensation if it was so freely given by my hon. friend's department ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not know why it was necessary. It was not necessary to put the case in the hands of a lawyer. It would have been considered in exactly the same way if no lawyer had interfered with it. I do not know why Douglas & Sons put it into the hands of a lawyer, and I do not care. iMr. Brethour did not put it into the hands of a lawyer, but came personally to see me about the matter. At my first interview with Mr. Brethour I said : This is an unusual thing, and I will have to look into it carefully to see the exact circumstances of the case before I can pay you any compensation at all. I did look into the circumstances of the case, but as I said,- I am speaking from memory and cannot give all the details. Finally it was decided, that, as these gentlemen had suffered a very large pecuniary loss due to the death of their animals by hog cholera, they should be allowed compensation, that compensation was based on the report of one of our own veterinaries and I authorized and agreed to the payment. As for politics entering into it there was nothing of the kind as far as Mr. Brethour is concerned. I do not know anything about the politics of Douglas & Sons as I do not know them personally. I do not know that I had anything to do with them personally, but as Mr. Brethour is a gentleman whom I know as being one of the leading producers of high class hogs, if not the leading producer, and whom I had met over and over again at exhibitions and at live stock conventions, naturally he came personally to me to discuss this heavy loss of his and to ask for compensation. Compensation was ordered to be paid in the ordinary way of business and to suggest that there were any politics in the matter is absolutely out of the question.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: 1 have had the return in my possession for some time, I have gone through it thoroughly and I have drawn my own conclusions from it. The minister is usually of a very kindly disposition and I want to give him credit for

that. But, he seems to have got very wrathy over this return, and it is for that reason that I want to say a word or two. He cannot justify the payment of this compensation in that way. I would be very glad to invite the minister to visit my own district where we have many breeders of high class animals, who have as good a reputation as Mr. Brethour and these other gentlemen spoken of, and yet I can show by this return that these breeders were allowed $0 and $7 each for their high class hogs when they were ordered to be killed by Mr. Perdu. It i's simply outrageous that the compensation allowed in this case should have been paid because any gentleman who knows anything about farming never heard of a hog being worth $233.


Mr. McCOLL.: Does the hon. gentleman know the price that Mr. Platt of Hamilton gets at public auction for his ihigh class cattle ?


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I do not know anything about Mr. Platt of Hamilton.


John B. McColl: These are high class hogs.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: You cannot see a solitary thing in any of the correspondence relative to taking these animals to St. Louis.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If my hon. friend is fair he will acknowledge that the correspondence with regard to takiug these animals over to St. Louis would not appear in this return because it is in another branch of my department. The statement he is making is a direct insinuation that what I state is not correct.


Richard Blain: Will the hon. gentleman lay that corresepondence on the table of the House ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can if the hon. gentleman will give me time.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: Mr. Brown, your own veterinary surgeon and inspector at Point Edward, as shown by this return, distinctly states that these gentlemen are not entitled to compensation. That seems to me to be the most direct evidence that this compensation should not have been paid. As far as Mr. Brethour is concerned the taking of these hogs over to St. Louis was a personal matter with himself. He was a breeder seeking a larger market for his stock and I give him credit for having the personal enterprise to go to the St. Louis exhibition. From the evidence of Mr. Brown there is no question that the disease was contracted at St. Louis. It is because of the irregularities of this government that so much loss has been caused to the farmers of western Ontario and so much compensation has been asked for as these irregularities have permitted a large quantity of American pork to come into this country. I censure in the strongest terms possible the action of the
Department of Agriculture in authorizing any such payments as these to these gentleman, and I invite the Minister of Agriculture to come to my district at any time and discuss this question.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: What authority had the minister to order the payment as compensation of such a large amount ? We had a case similar to this before the House last session, and in that case the minister refused to order compensation either large or small. The minister is controlled by statutory law the same as any one else. He may think that he is not but he is. The law says that where compensation is given the value of the animal shall be determined but that the conmpensa-tion shall not exceed, in the case of grade animals, a certain amount and, in the case of pure bred animals, $50 for each pig. It would be interesting to know what justification the minister has for the open violation of the law by which he must be controlled the same as any one else in making the compensation larger than the statute provides. Last year I drew to his attention a case in which an animal had been slaughtered because of tuberculosis and in that case there was an absolute refusal to give any compensation though the party could not afford to bear the loss. The animal had been killed in the interest of the health of the community. If these gentlemen were Induced to take their hogs to St. Louis for the purpose of representing the country I would naturally expect that they would be dealt with liberally as the circumstances would justify and the provision of the law permit. I would like to hear the minister's reason.


William Paterson: He has already spoken.


George Eulas Foster: He has exhausted his reason.


Mr. G. H. McINTYRE (South Perth).: I was not in the House at the time that my hon. friend from Peel introduced this matter but I heard a reference to a letter that I had written to the department. I am not aware that the hon. member for Peel has criticised that letter in its form or spirit and I can see no good reason why it should be criticised because it appears to me to be a perfectly natural letter for a member of parliament to write to a minister on an appeal from any one in his riding. It is three and a half years since I wrote it, but, as I recollect it, it conveys exactly what it was intended to convey. I do not think it was intended to convey any political meaning or bias. I know of no political reason why I should aid the Messrs. Douglas whom I did not know at all and about whom at this stage I knew nothing. In this I simply did as every member of this House would do, and all I can say to the hon. member for Peel is that whenever his hogs may be sick

or die and I can do him any good I will only be too glad to do so.


Richard Blain: I will send for you because you can be more influential than I could be.


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: I have never endeavoured to antagonize the minister. I will extend the same offer to the hon. member for Kent; I will be glad to aid him in the same way.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister oug3ht to give some reply.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. member (Mr. Sproule) is perhaps not aware that I have spoken already, that the Speaker is in the chair and that I am not authorized to speak again any more than any other hon. gentleman is.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the House will grant you that grace.


SALE OF INDIAN LANDS.
Mr. A. C. BOYCE (West Algoma).: I propose to refer briefly to the sale of a large block of land in the townships of Fisher, Haviland and Tilley, in the district of Algoma, by the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, on or about April 24, 1900. Presumably this sale was made under the Indian land regulations. The regulation under which it is stated the sale was made reads as follows :
Section 6. The above regulations as to occupation and improvement shall net apply to any lands in respect of which the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, has received a report, sworn to by a competent, reliable and disinterested person appointed by the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs to examine such lands that the same are in whole or for the most part unfit for cultivation. In the case of such lands the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs may dispose of the same or of the timber or other valuables thereon or therein to the best possible advantage in the interest of the Indians without reference to occupation or improvement.
Under that section and by agreement entered into between the Superintendent Gen-ral of Indian Affairs and the purchasers ou or about April 24, 1900, hut not carried out by grant of the Crown until September, 1906 the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs sold to three gentlemen who certainly were not unfriendly to the government and particularly to the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs at that time, the present member for Brandon (Mr. Sifton), 29,301 acres of lands in those townships at the very moderate price of $9,017.50. The names of the purchasers are: W. F. Wilson, sometime of Berlin, sometime of Brandon. Manitoba ; A. E. Philp, solicitor and barrister of Brandon, and D. Anson Ressor of Brandon, Manitoba. I wish to point out the conditions in regard to valuation. A Mr. G. H. McINTYRE.
valuator is to be appointed to report upon lands which are to be sold in this way and that valuator is to have the qualifications named in section 6, namely, he is to be competent, reliable and above all disinterested, and upon the report of such a man the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs may, in his discretion, sell the lands.
The first episode in this extraordinary transaction is a letter from A. H. Gale who hails from and describes himself as of Oxford, England. That letter reads ;
Toronto, July 25, 1899. Wm. Van Abbott, Esq.,
Agent Indian Affairs, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.
Sir,-I desire to purchase under section 6 of the land regulations the following Indian lands:
All sections in the townships of Ley, Haviland, Tilley, Fisher, Herrick and Palmer; also sections in Batchawana island. Also all sections in the west half of the townships of Tupper and Archibald, and all of the unoccupied lands in the townships of Kars, Fenwick, Pennefather and Dennis, and the west half of the township of Vankoughnet, all of the said lands being Indian lands and in the province of Ontario, at a price to be fixed by valuation of government valuator and upon such terms and regulations as your government may provide for the sale of the same.
I have the honour to be,
Your obedient servant,
A. H. GALE, Oxford, England.
Please send reply, if any, to Brandon, Manitoba, care of W. F. Wilson.
It is to be noticed that this gentleman comes from Oxford, England, writes from Toronto and gives his address as Brandon in care of W. F. Wilson. That letter is received by the Indian agent and forwarded to the Department of the Interior where it is filed. Nothing more takes place until March 19, 1900, under which date this letter appears :
Brandon, March 19, 1900. James A. Smart, Esq.,
Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Ottawa.
Dear Mr. Smart,-I inclose application to purchase certain hardwood timber lands in the Batchawana bay district, Lake Superior, under section 6 of the regulations, and as myself and associates are very anxious

Mark the words :
-are very anxious to establish a sawmill in that district, I would be very much obliged if you would take hold of the matter and put it through at your earliest possible convenience. I have been over the ground, and find there will be no difficulty in establishing, by the report and affidavits of men in the Goulais bay district, who are the nearest to this district, and who know the ground, that the lands we are after are unfit for settlement and that it would be -most expedient as a matter of public policy to allow of our application being granted.

There is a family, called McCaulay, settled in the Goulais bay district who are the nearest settlers to the land wanted and who are wood rangers, and have acted in different capacities for the government, who are in a position to give an accurate report and valuation of the lands. The elder McCaulay acted for the government as foreman or inspector, during the construction of the Sault Ste. Marie canal, and one of the sons is an expert wood ranger, and has been employed as wood ranger and timber inspector both by the government and by private lumber companies, and the report of either of 'these men would we believe be reliable.
I further think that we could have a petition signed by every settler in the Gonlais bay district asking that the government grant our request, and should you think it advisable will proceed to obtain it at once.
Kindly let us hear from you in this matter at your earliest convenience and oblige.
Yours truly,


W. F. WILSON.
[Stage Direction]
That accompanies the application. I would emphasize these features in the transaction, first that this gentleman wants to purchase hardwood timber, that he is anxious, nay he Is very anxious to establish a saw-mill in the district at the very earliest possible moment, that he has been over the ground and that it would be expedient, as a matter of public policy, to grant the application as soon as possible and that the settlers in the district are favourable to It and would petition for it if a petition was asked for.
I further refer to the extraordinary feature of that letter accompanying the application, namely, that the purchaser, the applicant for the land, nominates or suggests to the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs the person who Is to value the land under section 6. The application is as follows :
,Tas. A. Smart, Esq.,
Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Ottawa, Ontario.
Sir,-Myself and associates are anxious to establish a mill for the sawing and manufacturing of hardwocd in the Batchawana hay district, Lake Superior, and from a personal examination of the district we find:
1.	That there are absoluetly no settlers in the district and no lands have been taken up for settlement, or sold.
2.	That the lands in the said district for the most part are unfit for settlement.
3.	And that such lands as might upon examination prove fit for settlement are inaccessible for present markets.
4.	That there is no pulpwood of any value on the lands proposed to be selected.
5.	That the lands proposed to he purchased are now covered by timber license in the name of the St. Maurice Lumber Company expiring on April 30 next.
6.	That the St. Maurice Lumber Company has been merged in the business of the International Paper Company of New York.
7.	That neither the International Paper Company or the St. Maurice Lumber Company have ever built or operated a saw-mill upon the said limit and have no saw-mill in Canada manufacturing or for the purpose of manufacturing the timber upon the said lands.
8.	That we find that the International Paper Company cut a quantity of birch logs on the island in Batchawana bay and had them towed to a mill in the United States, there to be converted into lumber.
9.	That if myself and associates are granted the privilege of purchasing the lands or portions thereof hereinafter mentioned under section 6 of the regulations for the disposal of Indian lands we will establish a saw-mill at a point on Batchawana bay with a capacity of from three to five million feet per annum, and will further place a number of settlers upon such lands in the said district as shall be found fit upon examination for settlement under section 9 of said regulation (order in council) June 7, 1888.
10.	That the establishment of a saw-mill and plant on Batchawana bay would prove a great boon to the settlers of Gonlais bay and to those whom we might place on the lands in the said district and the carrying trade of the upper lakes.
11.	That no hardwood timber has ever been cut on the said district.
12.	That the majority of the said hardwood consists of maple and birch and- the large part of the timber trees are very old and many have already commenced to decay and unless the same are cut within the next few years much merchantable timber will be lost.
13.	That we would ask yon to appoint a person to report upon the said lands hereinafter mentioned, in accordance with the provisions of section 6 with a view to our purchasing the same.
The following are the lands proposed to be purchased in whole or in part, in quantities, in accordance with section 1 of the regulations, or settlers placed thereon where the lands are suitable for settlement. The townships of Haviland and Fisher, and the most western sections of the township of Tilley.

[Stage Direction]
There are some extraordinary features about that application. It is an application formal in its nature, of which the letter which I have read is not intended to form a part, and sets out the conditions on which the superintendent general is invited to sell these lands, the main features of which are the development of the district and the improvement of the conditions of the settlers in the neighbourhood. He sets out that the lumber companies that have been operating there have not been establishing any sawmills, but that on the contrary they have had the logs towed to a mill in the United States, to he there converted into lumber, iuferentially commenting very severely on that method, and suggesting that if he and his associates are granted these lands, they will adhere to the manufacturing conditions, establish a mill, and place a large number of settlers on the land. Then the application asks the government formally to appoint a valuator, and in the letter which accompanies that application the prospee-
[Stage Direction]
tive purchaser asks that McAuley, either father or son, be appointed the independent valuator, under the regulations. That application goes into the department on the 19th of March ; it is acknowledged on the 27th of March ; and while it is under consideration there is evidently communication between the applicant, the prospective purchaser, and this disinterested valuator who is to be appointed by the government. 1 refer to the following letter :
Goulais Bay, April 3, 1900.
W. F. Wilson,
Brandon, Manitoba.
Dear Sir,-I received your letter and in reply would say, the parties who hold the timber license have taken the present winter all the pulpwood off that portion of land that you were looking after around Batchawana
bay-
In regard to the petition it seems to me unnecessary as it is outside of the settlement. However, if the petition is needed I am at your service.
Hoping you will succeed in the undertaking.
I remain yours truly,

[Stage Direction]
The application was under consideration by the superintendent general of Indian Affairs, and here is the purchaser in correspondence with the valuator to be appointed by the government, employing that valuator in conjunction with the obtaining of a petition, the valuator offering to get the petition to accompany and support the Application of the purchaser, and expressing the hope that the purchaser will succeed in the undertaking. That letter by some means or other is in the possession of the Department of Indian Affairs. A report is made upon the matter on the 29th of March, 1900, signed by W. A. Orr. I will not weary the House by reciting the whole of that report, but I will extract portions of it :
Section 6 of the land regulations makes provision for having land reported unfit for settlement examined and authorizes the superintendent general to dispose of such land with the timber thereon to the best possible advantage in the interest of the Indians without reference to occupation and improvements.
He thinks Mr. Wilson's application is worthy of very favourable consideration, and he recommends that the lands be offered to Mr. Wilson and his associates on the following conditions :
1.	The lands and timber thereon to be explored and valuated by a competent valuator under oath and payment therefor, other than pine and spruce, to be made in cash at the time of sale at the value placed thereon.
2.	Sections and broken sections reported for the whole or most part fit for settlement to be subject to the following settlement duties- One settler to be placed upon each section or broken section, a house at least 18 x 24 feet to be erected thereon and occupied for three years, and five acres in every hundred, or in that proportion, to be cleared and cultivated.
Mr. BOYCE.: 3.	Sections or broken sections reported unfit for or for the most part unfit for settlement, not to be subject to settlement duties.
4.	The sale to be made subject to the existing timber license covering the lands as regards pine and spruce which timber may be cut and removed by licensees within three years from date of sale provided the license is yearly renewed.	_
5.	Pine and spruce not removed by licensees within three years, to be paid for by purchaser of, land at value placed thereon by valuator.
6.	The purchasers to establish a saw-mill at a point on Bataoha/wana bay with a capacity of from three to five million feet per annum, and to give Indians the preference in employment of labour, when found suitable for the work to be performed.
7.	All minerals, precious and base, to be reserved from sale, as well as the right to work mines and remove the mineral.
8.	Letters patent to be issued after the expiration of three years from date of sale, upon proof being furnished of the due fulfilment of all conditions.
I commend that last clause to the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior. This report closes with the recommendation that Mr. McAuley might, as suggested by Mr. Wilson, the purchaser, he instructed to make the valuation. The superintendent general of Indian Affairs thought that he was fulfilling his obligation and the requirements of his solemn trust under section 6 of the regulations, by appointing, as a competent and reliable and above all disinterested person to report on those lands, the man who it was shown was in correspondence with the purchaser, and appointing him while he was employed by the purchaser and doing his work in conjunction with this very application, and who was recommended by the purchaser. Mr. McAu-lev's letter was before the department at that time, filed there before any offer was made by the department to Mr. Wilson to sell these lands. The land was offered to Mr. Wilson in the following letter :
Department of Indian Affairs,
Ottawa, April 18, 1900.
Sir,-In further reference to your letter of the 19th ultimo, inclosing an application to purchase certain lands in the Batchawana district, I am directed to inform you that the department is prepared to sell you the undisposed of lands in the townships of Haviland (except part on Batchewaugn Island), Fisher and the nine westerly sections of Tilley, on the following conditions:-
1.	The lands and timber thereon to be explored and valued by a competent valuator under oath, and payment therefor other than pine and spruce, to be made in cash at the time of sale at the value placed thereon.
2.	Sections and broken sections reported for the whole or most part fit for settlement to be subject to the following settlement duties: One settler to be placed on each section or broken section, a house at least 18 x 24 feet, to be erected thereon and occupied for three years, and five acres in every hundred, or in that proportion to be cleared and cultivated.

3.	Sections or broken sections reported unfit or for the most part unfit for settlement not to be subject to settlement duties.
4.	The sale to be made subject to the existing timber license covering the lands as regards pine and spruce, which timber may be cut and removed by licensees within three years from date of sale, provided the license Is yearly renewed.
5.	Pine and spruce not removed by licensees within three years to be paid for by the purchaser of land at value placed thereon by valuator.
6.	The purchaser to establish a saw-mill at a point on Batchewana bay with a capacity of from three to five million feet per annum, and to give Indians a preference in the employment of labour when found suitable for the work to be performed.
7.	All minerals, precious and base, to be reserved from sale as well as the right to work mines and remove the mineral.
8.	Letters patent to be issued after the expiration of three years from date of sale, upon proof being furnished of the fulfilment of all conditions.
9.	The purchaser to pay proportionate amount of cost of valuation for the land found to be unfit for settlement.
Will you be good enough to advise the department whether or not you and your associates are willing to purchase under the conditions above named.
I may say as regards condition nine, that the practice of the department has been to require a deposit to cover the cost of valuation of land under section 6 of the regulations.
Your obedient servant,
J. D. McLEAN, Secretary.
Here is the answer :
Brandon, Manitoba, April 24, 1900.
J. D. McLean, Esq.,
Secretary Department of Indian Affairs, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-I have your communication of 18th instant and would say that myself and associates are prepared to complete on tne terms outlined therein.
We take it, however, that the valuator appointed will have as his basis of valuation the present price of Dominion and Ontario government of like kind in the same district.
Would like to have valuator make his examination at an early date. Would like to be advised about that date as we would like) to have a man go over the land with him.
I am your obedient servant,


W. E. WILSON.
[Stage Direction]
Just as if the purchaser had not got sufficient of his own way when he secured the appointment of a man interested in seeing that he succeeded in his application, he must also have knowledge of the time when the valuator would go over these lands in older that he might have another of his friends to accompany the valuator and keep the latter within the line of instructions given by the purchaser.
The next in order is the question of valuation. It is important to see what this valuation consisted of. Well, the result of the valuation was this :
Township of- Baviland	Acres	
10,701	$3,681 70Fisher	13,358	4,397 05Tilley	.. . 5,242	1,909 00Total	.. .. 29,301	$9,987 75
Let me refer to the report upon this valuation by Mr. Orr of the department, dated 17tli November, 1900. The terms of the sale were completed by the acceptance of the 24th April, 1900. The pretended valuation went on, and there is a memo, given by Mr. W. A. Orr to the department under date the 17ill November upon the whole matter, from which I extract the following :
ivir. Agent Van Abbott, in his letter of the 31st ultimo, reports that he had a conversation with Mr. Thomas Bishop, foreman in Die International Lumber Com.nany, the timber licensees, regarding the quantities of timber on the land in question, and the estimate given by Mr. Bishop is very largely dn excess of that repented by Mr. McAuley, as shown by statement attached hereto, but as i	^mate is not under oath I do
MoAnwk rt shou¥ ,be takeh as against Mr. McAuley s sworn statement.
, He asks that Mr. Wilson be now advised that the department will sell the land on these terms. Here is a man, Mr. Thomas Bishop, foreman of the International Lumber Company, a man of great experience, a man who has worked on these very limits tor several years-and the department was told before that report, by a letter from the Indian agent, dated 31st October, 1900 in which he says that Mr. Bishop has worked on these limits for several years. Bishop's estimate of the value of the timber was far in excess of this so-called disinterested valuation. The department made the sale to Wilson for the lower amount, upon the paltry, flimsy pretext that because Mr. Bishop's statement was not on oath and Mr. McAulay's was, they would prefer Mr. McAulay's valuation. It never seemed to occur to these officials of the Indian Department that in order to make this purchaser pay a fair value they might have sent out, at a little expense, and got an affidavit from Mr. Bishop. That never occurred to the department, or if it did occur they paid no heed. They did not want to get any affidavit, because they wanted to favour the purchasers who were trying to get the land at the most nominal value and then get rid of all the conditions on which they had agreed to purchase it.
Another strange feature about the valuation is that unfortunately all Mr. Me-Aulay's books and notes in connection with this marvellous valuation suddenly became lost. That is reported to the department by the Indian agent on the 27th October, 1905. All the notes and memo, upon which this interested valuator, nominated by the purchaser, made this wonderful valuation.
[Stage Direction]
were lost, destroyed by fire or in some other way unexplained, whether from accident or motive of expediency, the House can best judge.
Tlie department had the lowest possible valuation placed upon that land. There is no man of any experience in that country that I have seen who has not said that it is a shame and a disgrace for the government that that land was sold, even under those conditions with regard to the development of the neighbouring country, conditions by which the farmers and the settlers would get an advantage in the opening of that country. Even under those conditions, I have heard it said by many competent to give an opinion that it was a shame and disgrace that so little was got for that splendid acreage. In the township of Tilley
Mr. JOHNSTON.: Louder.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Considering the source from which the interruption comes I will not regard it. I will say that I am trying to be as brief as possible and if the hon. member will not interrupt me except when it Is really desirable, I will be obliged to him. In the township of Tilley, section 7, containing 646 acres, was estimated by the valuator at $425, with all the timber on It. The department sold it at $3S8. Section 8, containing 637 acres, was valued at $267 ; the department sold it at $262.50. Section 0 was valued at $247.50 and was sold by the department at $209.50. Section 18, containing 317 acres was valued at $111 and sold at $91. Section 4, containing 647 acres, was valued at $285 and sold at $190. Section 5, containing 644 acres, valued at $212.50 was sold at $175. Section 6, stated by the valuator to contain 565 acres, was valued at $206, but the department sold that section containing 644 acres at $169 ; so that upon that section there were 79 more acres and yet it was sold at $37 less than the value put upon it by the valuators. The same thing runs through a good many of the lands which I have cursorily touched upon. Let me call the attention of the minister to one particularly significant circumstance. In the same township the s.w.l of the n.w.J of section 17 and the wi of the s.w.i of section 17, containing 40 acres, realized about $4 an acre to this department. But when the valuator for the purchases by Mr. Wilson and his very acceptable associates valued a portion of the same section, all he could see of the value was 34 cents an acre. A great deal of time elapsed in correspondence with the department. Mr. Wilson was not as brisk as he might have been at the first in completing the purchase at the valuation, and we find that the department had to ask several times for him to exercise some haste in closing up the matter. It will be noted that on the 20th of April, 1900, Mr. Wilson writes to the department and asks to hasten Mr. BOYCE.
the application as he desires to attend to the erection of the mill. This is before the application is accepted. A part of the amount, tlie sum of $500 on account of purchase is paid on the 5th of May, 1900. After the valuation is made, Mr. Wilson seems to be thinking the matter over very seriously and the department is reminding him about it. On the 24th of June, 1901, Mr. Orr, of the department, reported that the land had been sold to Mr. Wilson and had been withdrawn from sale with a view to allowing Mr. Wilson to bring the whole question of his application before the minister, and it was understood from him when he was in Ottawa in the preceding February that the purchaser proposed bringing it to the attention of the minister. On the 25th of June, 1901, the department wrote to Mr. Wilson that unless action was taken to comply with the terms of sale the department would have to take into consideration the placing of the lands again in the hands of local agents. On the 29th of June, 1901, Mr. Wilson writes to the department that he is advising with his associates and will write later. On the 19th of August, 1901, a memo, is made by Mr. Orr in regard to an application from Air. Wilson to be relieved of a portion of these lands, reported to be unfit for settlement. This is accepted, the memo of 19th August reading in this way :
Approved on the grounds that the land is fit lor settlement and adjoining settled portions of the township. It is understood that this matter will be disposed of in the course of a couple of months.
Taking into consideration that the transaction was not closed until some time in the year 1906, five years afterwards, this memo seems extraordinary.
At one o'clock, House took recess.
House resumed at three o'clock.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: When you left the chair at one o'clock, I was proceeding to show that after the valuation had been made, the department was urging the purchasers to complete the sale in terms of the application by payment of the purchase money immediately after valuation. In a number of letters which I will not read at length, the purchasers were urged by the department to close. On December 6, 1901, a memorandum was sent to the department by Mr. Orr saying the matter had stood for a considerable time, and should be closed at an early date. On December 7, 1901, the department wrote to Mr. Wilson, the purchaser, that it would hold the application in abeyance two months. That is from December 7, 1901, to February 7, 1902. Immediately after that, an application was made for the same land, or a portion of the same land, by another purchaser who proposed to establish a hardwood industry in that district,

but lie was told tbe land was not open for sale. Then the same delay goes on down to February 13, 1902, when the department again urged the purchaser to close the transaction; again on June 20, 1902, when the department urged that the transaction be closed. On June 24, 1902, the purchaser wrote that he was ill, but he would be able shortly to lay the matter before his associates at Brandon and have it closed. On January 12, 1903, the department again wrote to Wilson urging that the sale be closed up, and received the reply that he had been again away from home for a couple of weeks, and that when he returned he would take the matter up with his Brandon associates and have it closed at the earliest possible moment. I mention these dates for a reason. Something was going on during the time that the purchaser appeared to be doing nothing, and while the department was urging him to close by fulfilling the conditions. Now we come down to January, 1903. Up to that time the purchaser had been paying money in instalments on account of the land, and on Mav 29, 1903. he had so far completed this purchase that he only owed the department, exclusive of interest, about S"00. On May 29, 1903. there comes a letter from Mr. Wilson, the purchaser, to the department which explains what has been going on in the meantime, and his reluctance to close.
Berlin, Ontario, May 29, 1903.
J. D. McLean,	.
Secretary Indian Affairs.
Dear Sir,-In reference to your letter to me of April 18, 1900

That is the original offer of sale.
-would beg to submit that owing to the said lands in Haviland, Fisher and Tilley townships being very lightly timbered and the lands so rough and mountainous, it is practically impossible to get enough timber within reasonable hauling distance at any point on the said lands to warrant the erection of a permanent saw-mill, and would respectfully submit that clause 6 with reference to the erection of a saw-mill capable of cutt.ng three to five million feet of timber per year, he withdrawn. The labour in lumbering, especially in a rough country like that, and in hardwood which cannot he floated down the streams, consist's chiefly in getting out logs to the shore. A very safe proportion of the outlay would be 75 to 90 per cent for cutting and hauling the logs to the shore, and the balance for labour in the saw-mill cutting them into lumber. The only way I see it possible to take out timber without loss is either to put in a small portable mill that can be moved from place to place on the shore, or make the logs into rafts and tow them to a place like the Soo to be sawn into lumber.
Trusting that you will see your way clear to abrogate clause 6 so I will be able to work the land without loss.
Yours truly,


W. F. WILSON.
[Stage Direction]
Now, Sir, what a farce is that letter. Note the first part of it, ' owing to the lands being lightly timbered and so rough and mountainous.' Refer back to his original proposition to the department to purchase those lands where he says that he has been over the lands and examined them, and he is very anxious indeed to establish a mill for the cutting of hardwood. It is his own proposition to establish a saw mill on those lands capable of cutting 3,000,000 to 5,000,000 feet of lumber a year. Then it *Will be observed that be still suggests that he desires to work those lands, but that he desires to work them without -loss. The correspondence shows that at the time he wrote this letter he had absolutely no idea whatever of working the lands, and in my judgment, from a careful perusal of the correspondence, I do not believe he ever had any idea of working those lands or of complying with the conditions imposed by the department; and I believe from the same examination that the department, that the officers of the department, that the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs at that time, now the hon. member for Brandon, knew that the purchaser had no intention whatever of complying with these conditions, and that he only made them in order to give face to his app'ication. That was dealt with by the department in this way. On June 20, 1903, Mr. Orr again made a memorandum to the department upon the letter just read, in which he suggests that if the permanent saw-mill clause is to be abrogated, that- the suggestion of the purchaser be accepted, and that the following clause be added:
The purchaser to place and operate a portable saw-mill of large size on the lands purchased and to give Indians a preference in the employment of labour, when found suitable for the work to be performed.
Paring down the most important condition on which the land was sold. The condition suggested by the purchaser himself was communicated to him by Mr. Frank Pedley on the 22nd day of June, 1903, and in ithe same letter he is asked to pay the balance of the purchase money. I propose that we shall look behind the scenes and see what this purchaser did. He was under an obligation to plant an industry on this land which would he good for the district, good for the workman and good for the farmer, and I propose to show how anxious he was later on to remove these conditions and get the land freed from them. He says In his application that there was an American firm in there, that they were exporting logs and lie asserted that if he and his associates had the property (they would establish a sawmill and comply with the manufacturing conditions, so that the settlers as well as the Indians would have the benefit of a bardwood manufacturing industry on tliis land. Wbat was he doing in the meantime? I refer to a letter, dated September 17, 1903, which reads as follows :
[Stage Direction]


Chicago, September 17, 1903.
To the hon.
Minister of Crown Lands,
Toronto, Canada.
Dear Sir,-A gentleman by the name of Wilson living in Berlin, Ontario, wishes to sell us 26,000 acres of timber lands as per the inclosed map, lands being shown inside the red lines. The owner represents that the logs from this timber can be exported into the United States without export duties or timber dues of any kind from the Canadian government. I desire confirmation of that statement from your department and will be very much obliged if you will inclose same and forward to me by return mail in inclosed envelope and at the same time inclose the blue print which I hand you herewith. I desire your answer at the earliest moment possible and would be pleased with your prompt attention.
Yours very truly,

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During the time that this purchaser was trying to get the mill clause abrogated it is shown by this letter that he was offering to sell the land to American firms and representing to them that the logs could be exported from Canada to the United States free of duty ito the Canadian government, representing that he could avoid all manufacturing conditions and that lie could avoid the very conditions upon which alone he could hope to get a patent of this land. That shows that ithe purchaser knew what the department was doing before the department had, made any ruling whatever about this mill. Before he had accepted or rejected the alternative proposition of the department as to the erection of a portable mill in lieu of a permanent mill this gentleman knew what he could do with the department, he knew (that he held some one in the department, perhaps at the top of the department, by the nose and he had confidence enough to go upon the American market and offer this tract of 20,000 acres free from all conditions, undertaking to say that there would be no export duty on logs to the Canadian government. That letter was written to the Minister of Crown Lands, Toronto, and forwarded to the Department of the Interior and, by the Department of the Interior, to the Indian Lands Department. It will be noted that the letter is dated on the 17th September. On the 19th September, just two days after the date of that letter, the purchaser replies to the letter to which I have referred, the letter of June 22, which is as follows :
Berlin, Ontario, September 19, 1903.
J. D. MoLean, Esq.,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Sir,-Referring to letter of June 22, signed by the deputy superintendent general of Indian Affairs offering a substitution for clause 6 of the original agreement of sale for lands in Haviland, Fisher and Tilley, would gay I am very much disappointed in the terms of the same. I have delayed commenting on Mr. BOYCE.
it till I could see Mr. A. E. Philp, of Brandon, who tells me you assured him that by proper representation of the case you would abrogate clause 6. If he has misunderstood you and it is impossible to do away with clause 6 it simply means that we have thrown away our money. I inclose two letters that speak for themselves. Cedar is the timber of most value at the present time and what we based our hopes on mostly. Kindly advise me if there is not some way of abrogating clause 6 so as to give us a chance to work the lands in such a way as not to make a loss.
Yours truly,

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On the same day a letter was written by the purchaser to the department in which he asks just exactly what the Chicago man to whom the land had been offered asks. He asks if the department would kindly inform him if there is any export duty on logs, timber or tan bark, or any other regulation prohibiting the export of timber from Indian lands to the United States. A reply to Mr. Johnson's letter is sent by Mr. Ped-ley :
Ottawa, September 22, 1903.
Dear Sir,-I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 17th instant, which was transmitted to this department by the assistant commissioner of Crown lands, relative to certain lots in the townships of Fisher, Haviland and Tilley which, you state, Mr. Wilson, of Berlin, Ontario, is desirous of selling to you and requesting information as to whether the timber can be exported to the United States free of duty.
In reply I have to state that Mr. Wilson has not completed the sale made to him, and, therefore, the patent for these lands has not been issued.
I inclose for your information a copy of the order in council of April 19, 1901, imposing ' the manufacturing conditions/ which will show the kinds of timber subject to the condition that it shall be manufactured in Canada, also the blue print which you asked to have returned.
Your obedient servant,

[Stage Direction]
Deputy Superintendent General Indian Affairs.
W. S. Johnson, Esq.,
138 Washington street,
. Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Let us see for a moment what that means. What is there included in these words, the ' kinds of timber subject to the conditions '? Here is the Department of Indian Affairs with its superintendent general, its deputy superintendent general, and all ithe officers of the department presumably watching the interests and carrying out the duties of their respective positions ; they have a contract entered into which requires the manufacture of this timber into lumber in Canada, that the purchaser shall establish a mill for that purpose of a certain capacity, that he shall employ the Indians where possible and that he shall plant settlers on the land. Notice is given to the department that the pur-

chaser is not complying with these conditions, that he is trying to abrogate them and that while the abrogation of the clause is under consideration by the department you have ithe department notified that this man is offering for sale in the United States the very same land free from all conditions which would prevent the export of logs to the United States. Would you say, Mr. Speaker, that that was a provident transaction entered into by a watchful, vigilant and honest Superintendent General of 'Indian Affairs ? I think not. I think if the Minister of Interior of that time who occupied the. position of Superintendent General of Indian Affairs had been honestly desirous of properly performing the duties of his department, if he had been desirous of maintaining the position of this government as trustee of the Indians, if he had been desirous of carefully guarding the interests of the district in which these lands were located, of the settlers and of those who were to get ithe benefits from the fulfilment of these conditions, from the establishment of that mill, he, when he got that letter, first, asking for the abrogation of the mill clause, and, secondly, followed by the letter from the Chicago man when the land was offered to him free from any conditions, would have said :	Mr. Purchaser, you
cannot have this land except upon the conditions stated in the application.
Would he not, had he desired honestly to adhere to the contract, itself, have notified the Chicago man at the same time that he told him the purchaser had not received his patent, that the patent could only issue and that the agreement was on condition that the mill should be erected and the logs cut into lumber in Canada and that the conditions of the agreement on which alone the land could be patented were such as to prohibit the export of timber from those limits in the log ? But what of the regulations themselves ? Here is an order in council dated April 9, 1901-a very significant date in connection with this transaction. The transaction was entered into in the latter part of 1900, and all this time the purchasers were being pressed to pay their money, the valuation had been made and the department was anxious to have it completed. It is shown by later correspondence that the land was offered for sale to American firms, that it was being held purely for speculative purposes, and we find on April 19, 1901, His Excelleucy in Council assenting to an order fixing manufacturing conditions on timber cut on Indian reserves and Indian lands in Ontario. These regulations are signed by His High Mightiness, Clifford Sifton, Superintendent General of Indian Affairs. I shall not read the conditions. They refer first to pine and second to spruce or other soft wood trees or timber. Whenever other wood than pine is mentioned, the regulations are careful to mention soft wood trees or timber not being 4164
pine. The regulations are careful not to mention but to except anything in the nature of hard wood, and hard wood is the very timber which was on this land and an industry for the manufacture of which it was a condition precedent to this application these purchasers should establish upon this land. The deputy was notified by Mr. Wilson that he would consent to nothing, that he would consent only to the employment of Indians at the current rate of wages if it was found they wen; suitable. The result of it was that the clause containing the manufacturing conditions and provision for the establishment of a mill was abrogated and struck out of the contract.
On November 5, 1903, Wilson says :
I presume now that the saw-mill clause is arranged that there will be no objection to issuing the patent for the lands.
In the same letter he says :
The matter of issuing patent for the lands was discussed between Mr. McLean and Mr. Philip some time since and Mr. McLean was favourable to it.
He gets a reply from McLean, who evidently is desirous of fulfilling his duty as acting deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs. The letter is dated November 27, 1903 :
Sir,-I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of -the 25th instant, regarding the issue of patent for lands applied for you in the Batehawana bay district and in reply would call your attention to the last paragraph of letter addressed to you on the 2nd instant, from which you will see that there is still a balance of purchase money due and unpaid of $415.80. Upon payment of the above sum a sale will be duly made in accordance with the conditions specified in letter addressed to you on the 18th April, 1900, varied only as regards clause 6 and under which arrangement letters patent can only issue after expiration of three years from date of sale, upon due fulfilment of all conditions.
(Sgd.) J. D. McLEAN.
Section G of the regulations having been abrogated, the next step is to pare down the conditions with regard to existing timber licenses. The purchaser then sets himself assiduously to work to get rid of the conditions and finally succeeds in getting rid of the conditions which make his purchase subject to any timber license.
Then the purchaser and his friends seem to have become anxious, as on March 11, 1905, A. E. Philp, one of the associates of the purchaser and one of the guarantees of this land by patent from the Crown, was in Ottawa. Here is a letter from him :
Brandon, Manitoba, March 11, 1905.
Frank Pedley, Esq.,	,
Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-With further regard bo our conversation regarding this matter would point
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out that I was correct in stating that the clause relating to a saw-mill had been entirely eliminated. I wrote Mr. Wilson, regarding this and he had forwarded a copy of your letter to him of 6th November, 1903, which I inclose and which you will see disposes of that question.
Now regarding the lessees, I trust you will be able to advise me that the solicitor general holds that your notice to quit was sufficient and that patent will issue.
The purchaser lias been anxious up to this time that the patent should be delayed, but now Wilson is very hostile over the delay in closing.
He insists that when he paid, he paid his money to the department some three years or more ago, he paid it in full of the amount due on Haviland township, and that the patent in any event should issue for that portion.
Tours truly,

[Stage Direction]
What that gentleman wants now is a patent from the Crown, if it is for only a portion of this land, anything for a patent. The political situation at this time seems to he significant. I find that on March 1, 1905, the Hon. Clifford Sifton, then occupying the position of Minister of the Interior, and Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, found it necessary to resign from that high office in empnasizing those high and lofty principles of public morality and public rectitude which it is said have always dominated his career. He resigned his portfolio and at once these purchasers, became frenzied with anxiety to get their patents and to get the lands at once out of the hands of the Crown. So soon as this mighty king who had dominated the Department of the Interior during the preceding years was about to abdicate his throne, these gentlemen were evidently afraid that there might rise up in the department another king * which knew not Joseph.' Well, Sir, they did not get their patent just then, and they were somewhat disappointed at not getting it. There was some little question as to the delay which was occasioned by the purchaser whittling away at these conditions. However, the matter was referred to the Department of Justice, not upon the question of interest, but upon tile question of the timber limit. On the 14th of April, 1905, Mr. Philp was again in Ottawa, and it is a far cry from Brandon to Ottawa. In March and April he was down twice to get the patent for these lands and to hurry it up. and on the 14th of April the department writes to the Deputy Minister of Justice stating :
Mr. Philp, of Brandon, called at the department to-day and was very anxious to have an [DOT]airly reply as to the decision of the Department of Justice in that matter.
Well, the Department of Justice gave a decision with regard to the timber limit,
Mr BOYCE.: and at the same time drew the attention of the Indian Department to the fact that this sale had been made on the 24th of April, 1900, and that interest must he paid on the purchase money. The result of that was that Mr. Orr makes another memorandum on the 28th of April, in which he says :
The other conditions of sale having been complied with

Although they had not been complied with at the time.
-the purchasers would appear entitled to receive letters patent for the land, reserving minerals, upon payment or remission of above interest and of the value of pine and spruce.
And a memorandum is sent to the purchaser saying that he owed to the department $1,107.32, balance of interest on purchase money-that during the time he was delaying he should pay interest on his purchase money. It appeared to be a considerable delay that the department was subjected to ; hut Wilson, at the same time, objects, and the result is that my hon. friend, tiie present Minister of the Interior, possibly with not a very careful examination of the file, possibly upon some one else's recommendation, possibly upon the statement of some one else whose word he was obliged to rely upon, as he had so recently come into the department, advises that this interest be remitted altogether. On the 12th of February, 1906, there is a recommendation by the Hon. Frank Oliver, as Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, which is very interesting in view of the facts. I do not associate the name of the hon. gentleman in any invidious manner with this recommendation, because I feel that he was trusting to the representations of those who had been administering the department before him, and this was one of those numerous legacies which were left to him to carry out. This recommendation is as follows :
Department of Indian Affairs,
Ottawa, February 12, 1906. His Excellency the Governor General in
Council.
The undersigned begs to report, in connection with a sale of the land on the Bateha-wana Indian reserve to Mr. W. F. Wilson and associates, of Berlin, Ontario-
He has made a mistake-it should be Brandon, Manitoba.
-which was carried out on November 21, 1900, that, although the land was purchased by Mr. Wilson and his associates for the purpose of securing the timber thereon, no timber has been removed by them owing to a misunderstanding as regards their rights to operate; and consequently the purchasers have not had the possession nor use of their property.
The final instalment of purchase price was paid on April 12. 1901, and, in view of the circumstances above mentioned, and of the

fact that the purchasers paid a fair price for the land, it is considered that the charging of interest on the unpaid principal to the above date would be excessive.
The undersigned would therefore recommend that, under the provisions of section 111 of the Indian Act, as added thereto by section 8 of chapter 35, Victoria 58-59, authority he given for the remission of interest in connection with the sale referred to.


FRANK OLIVER,
[Stage Direction]
Superintendent General of Indian Affairs.
And accordingly, the interest was remitted. Mr. Philp writes on the 24th of August from Brandon to the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs informing him that ' Mr. Wilson has sold the property, and has asked me to instruct you to issue the patent direct to him.' He wants the patent issued to William F. Wilson, of Berlin, manufacturer ; D. Anson Reesor, of Brandon, merchant; and Albert E. Philp, of the same place, barrister-at-law. That, after some delay, is carried out, and the patent of these lands is issued to these three gentlemen.
Now, I want for a moment to set before the House a statement of exactly how the matter worked out, so far as the purchase money is concerned, having regard to the changes which were made from time to time by the purchaser with the very easily obtained consent of the department. The valuation reported to tbe department by this highly disinterested valuator, nominated by the purchaser and appointed by tbe department, was $9,987.75 ; the interest, which was worked out by the Department of Justice as owing by the purchaser, amounted to $1,167.32 ; the valuation of the pine and spruce not removed by tbe licensee, and payable by /the purchaser under section 5 of the agreement, amounted to $704, making the amount payable under Hie agreement $11,859.07 ; whereas tbe department only received from the purchaser $9,017.50, so that the department lost $2,841.57, six years' delay, and an abrogation of every one of the conditions upon which tbe purchase was entered into ; a patent was issued clear and free to tbe purchasers without asking proof of any one single condition. I lay it to the charge of the hon. Minister of the Interior who sits in this House to-day that he permitted that patent to issue during the period of his administration of office, whether upon some one's recommendation or not. without seeing to it that the conditions had been performed, and that the letter of the contract upon which the patent should issue had been performed. The matter did excite some little comment and criticism. It excited criticism from a member of this House sitting behind the Minister of tbe Interior, and a gentleman who has done, or been interested in, lumbering in Algoma. I find this letter on file :
House of Commons,
Ottawa, May 30, 1905.
Frank Pedley, Esq.,
Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-I .have your favour of the 19th together with the full information asked for, and "&hdch I assure you is sufficient in every way. I have also been informed that a large tract of Indian land was recently sold for the sum of thirty cents per acre. Is it possible that such a transaction was put through? If so, would you mind giving the names of the purchasers and the quantity of land purchased? No further particulars will be required.
Thanking you for the same, I am,
Yours sincerely,

[Stage Direction]
What answer did Mr. Gordon get to that?
Department of Indian Affairs,
June 2, 1905.
Dear Sir,-In reply to your communication of the 30th ultimo, I beg to say that in 1900 a tract of land in the townships of Fisher, Haviland and Tilley, containing about 29,300 acres, was sold to W. F. Wilson and his associates at a price based on a sworn examination and valuation of each section, which price averaged about thirty-four cents per acre, the sale being made on specified conditions, pine, spruce and all minerals being reserved from the sale.
Yiours very truly,

[Stage Direction]
Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs.
Tbe minister must know that tbe deputy superintendent mis-stated the facts in this letter, because the essential condition of that sale having been abrogated, the deputy superintendent general concealed that from a member of this House w7bo desired the information. He informed this member that the sale was made on specified conditions when he knew that these conditions were entirely abrogated.
I have shown conclusively by the correspondence that three years before the patent is issued, these men were trying to get rid of the conditions and sell the same land in the United States free of conditions. The department was aware of that and assisted them in getting rid of the conditions and the spirit and letter of its own order in council of April, 1901, knowing that their removal would result in a sale being made. Before the patent is used a sale had been made. Let me give the figures to show the profits realized by these purchasers from the Crown on the sale they made to these Americans.
Township of Fisher-
Purchase .price to the department.$ 3,681 <0 Price of re-sale by the .purchasers to the American firm before the
patent was issued	 37,346 00
Net profit to purchasers	$ 33,664 30
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Township of Haviland-
Purchase price to department. 4,397 05
Purchase price paid by Americans to the purchaser® from the Crowh, before the patent was issued or concurrently therewith. 49,000 00
Net profit to purchasers	$ 44,602 95
Township of Tilley
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Purchase price to department. ..$ 1,909 00
Paid by Americans on the re-sale before the patent issued or contemporaneously therewith..	.. 15,481 00
Net profit	$	13,572	00Total purchase price	$	9,017	50total re-sale price	
101,830 00Net profit	$	91,812	50
And not a stick removed or a tree cut- not a dollar spent on those limits; not one condition upon which that contract was en tered into performed by these gentlemen.
. Referring again to section 6 of the regula tions, my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior will see that I am right when I say that section 6 contemplates the sale being made with the concurrence of the Superin tendent General of Indian Affairs, absolutely in his discretion, upon such terms and conditions as he may see fit to impose. But the sale can only be made on the report of a reliable and disinterested person, and then it must be disposed of with the timber and other advantages to the best possible advantage of the Indians. If that land was worth $101,830, to be paid in hard cash by the Americans after examination, report and valuation, it was certainly worth that amount when valued by the disinterested gentleman appointed at the instance of these purchasers in 1899-1900. That money was stolen from the Indians. It belongs to the Indian Trust Fund. The purchasers have no right to it and it ought to be restored. There ought to be restitution of that amount or some restitution, having regard to the value of this territory which was alienated in this extraordinary manner.
I was proceeding to show to the Minister of the Interior what the section contemplated as to application-this whole transaction by the Indian regulations, was to be separated entirely from sale of land by a local agent. A local agent, of course, would have no jurisdiction whatever over a transaction of this kind, it had to be made by the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs who had to proceed in the manner specified bv the regulations. Then, we see t)he application put in the name of A. H. Gale, who hailed from Oxford, England, and wrote from Toronto and gave his address as Brandon, Manitoba. We see that letter tucked away in the local Indian agency in Sault Ste. Marie. Why was it put in in this clandestine, peculiar and sinister manner? Gale knew the law. for, in his letter, he mentions the section of the regulations
Mr BOYCE.: 
W. F. WILSON.
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' Mr. Sifton 'wished the application put in in Mr. Gale's name at the time.' Mr. Sifton-the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, the high trustee for the Indians, who, under section C, had great discretion as to whether he would sell or not sell Indian lands, and who alone had tlife judging of applications of that character and the imposition of terms and conditions which would obtain the best possible advantage In the interests of the Indians-he, it appears, is a party to the sinister, clandestine application, not sent to himself, not presented to his department, but filed away in the local office in Sault Ste. Marie. For what purpose this was done goodness only knows, except this, that the application of Gale covered all the unsold Indian lands in that part of the district and the subsequent application of Wilson-who, by his own statement, had gone over the land and examined it-and who had the opportunity for nine months to select and narrow down his application to what he wanted. Where is the significance? Leave that letter as it is, carrying with it what information it does ; admit for the moment that W. F. Wilson was not justified in saying that the hou. Superintendent General of Indian Affairs had directed that application and had wished it to be in the name of a man who had nothing whatever to do with the transaction-admit all this, and what do we find ? Did the department recognize it ? The statement went to the Deputy Minister of the Interior, Mr. J. A. Smart, who was very close to the then Minister of the Interior, Hon. Mr. Sifton, if one can judge from evidence that has been adduced before commissions of this parliament. That letter went to him. Did he show it to Mr. Sifton ? Was it acted upon [DOT] Yes. it was acted upon in the Depai'tment of the Interior, it was forwarded to the Indian Department and whatever rights Gale had in that application were, upon the statement contained in that letter, by the wish of this high monarch, Hon. Clifford Sifton, transferred to, vested in and patented to Messrs. Wilson, Philp and Ree-sor to reap the profits. Is that significant
enough for my lion, friend ? If not, let me place some more significant facts before him. Who is Mr. A. E. Philp? He 5s a barrister-at-law, of Brandon, Manitoba.
I need not tell this House what association he had with the then Minister of the Interior and Superintendent General of Indian Affairs. He was his partner, bis law partner, connected with him in business transactions, very loyal ,to him, a hard worker in his election, a close political friend and a close adherent to the right hon. gentlemen, and a man who was down here just at the time when Mr. Sifton was resigning his office, clamouring to get a patent, frenziedly anxious that the will of the people should be carried out with regard to the domain of the Indians, and that the conditions of the sale should be performed. There, Mr. Speaker, is the transaction in a nutshell. Let us see how it is worked out in a summary :
1.	A blanket application (Gale's), while preliminary selection made by purchaser: and valuator chosen by him and arranged with.
2.	A restricted area applied for by Wilson after inspection, and a valuator nominated by applicant and appointed by the minister.
3.	The department's proposition to sell subject to manufacturing and other condj-tions is made to and accepted by the applicant.
4.	The purchaser's nominee. is appointed by the government to value the land, and his valuation is sent to the department.
5.	Indian agent concurrently informs the department that this is a low valuation, and that the valuation of an experienced lumberman in the district, who has had intimate knowledge of these lands, is far in excess of the valuation received.
6.	Department rejects high valuation and accepts the lower one, and then reduces even the lower valuation.
7.	After lapse of three years all manufacturing conditions of sale are removed so as to permit of the timber being exported to United States in the log.
8.	Before abrogating these conditions department is made aware that the lands are being offered to purchasers in the United States
9.	Order in council of 1901 is passed, in which export of hardwood in the log is not prohibited or restricted.
10.	Purchase is allowed to drift along from 1900 to 1900, during which time all conditions of sale disappear, and the land is being offered in United States markets.
11.	Minister of Justice rules that interest amounting to $1,167.32 should be paid on the purchase money owing to delay in closing deal on recommendation of Minister of the Interior. This is remitted by order in council.
12.	Before patent issues to purchasers
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they have arranged and completed a sale to United States firms of all the lands at a net profit to them of $91,813.50.
13.	Patent issues to purchasers without any conditions.
14.	Applicants and purchasers are (a) all political friends of Mr. Sifton, Minister of the Interior, Avho sold the land ; (b) one of them (A. E. Philp) his former law partner ; (e) and the others, D. A. Reesor and W. P. Wilson, active political workers and friends.
15.	Mr. Sifton, then Minister of the Interior, directs or wishes original application for the lands to be put in Mr. Gale's name at the office at Sault Ste. Marie at the time.
10.	By this transaction-*
(a)	The Indians are robbed of the true value of the land, the accrued interest thereon, and of the benefit of the manufacturing conditions, which would have provided them with labour.
(b)	The settlers in adjoining lots lose value of improvement, roads and settlement, as well as the sawmill and work in the same.
(c)	The district of Algoma loses an industry to which it was entitled, and its labouring men lose the work and its merchants the sale of material which would have resulted from its maintenance.
(d)	The close political friends of the minister gain $91,813.50 without cutting a tree or doing any work of improvement or development.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I notified the Minister of the Interior that I should speak about this matter, and I also drew it to the personal attention of the ex-Minister of the Interior, the man whose name I have mentioned, and who is irresistibly connected With this correspondence. He knew this matter was coming up, but he has not seen fit to houour the House with his presence. Why does he not think it of sufficient importance that ne should be here to listen to a transaction of this nature? Perhaps this is a transaction beneath the dignity of so important a gentleman, perhaps that, on the occasions when he does visit this House, matters of more paramount importance attract him. It is only on such occasions that this gentleman, who came into this House like the rest of us, not endowed with too much of this world's goods, but now a very rich man, deigns to visit us ; it is only on very rare occasions that an equipage that almost puts into the shade the carriage of His Excellency the Governor Genera], rolls up to the door of this House and that hon. gentleman condescends to honour us with his presence. It is of that gentleman that I desire to say a few words, and in his absence I will say them to the right hon. gentleman instead. I have drawn to the attention of the right hon. gentleman the quotation-it is on ' Hansard '-which I
Mr BOYCE.: will read again to refresh his memory. I quote from the London ' Economist ' of the 9th of November last, in which these words are used :
The worst his opponents can allege is that he has been remiss in not ordering an inquiry into the Interior Department and not dismissing those about him who make a vulgar display of riches acquired no one knows how, unless by official malversation on a grand scale.
I wonder whether the right hon. gentleman, after perusing these indisputable facts, after looking at the sinister way in which the then Minister of the Interior, whom he placed so high on the pedestal, and held up before this country as the Napoleon of the West, this minister who steps down from the office of Minister of the Interior in order to emphasize a great principle ; this minister who, if rumour speaks true, is shortly to be taken again to the political bosom of my right hon. friend-I wonder if the right hon. gentleman can read this evidence of record in the department and then say that there should be no inquiry into the transactions of the Department of the Interior, that nobody has been robbed, that no sinister dealing has taken place in that transaction whereby the public interests have suffered, and that officials high up in the department, even the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs himself, has profited, or his close personal friends have profited through his help, or through the originating mind of the hon. gentleman himself in initiating this great transaction, out of which so much money was made at the expense of the public domain?
Well, Sir, the right hon. gentleman made some professions as far back as 1893, and those professions were backed up by a gentleman. then a very modest young man, who came from the province of Manitoba and who addressed the Liberal convention, saying he was pleased to be there as representative of the youngest province of the Dominion, a young man himself in official life, as he stated. This hon. gentleman, at that great Liberal convention of 1893, was the seconder of this motion.
We cannot but view with alarm the large increase of the public debt and of the controllable annual expenditure of the Dominion and the consequent undue taxation of the people under the governments that have been continuously in power since 1878, and we demand the strictest economy in the administration of the government of the country.
The hon. gentleman said on that occasion :
Now, Mr. Chairman. I am called upon to second a resolution affirming again the Liberal principle of economy. I do not propose to lecture men who are my seniors in wisdom, as well as in years, upon the necessity of eoonomy in connection with the administration of public affairs, but I wish to call attention to this fact, that, as Liberals, we have the

right to say that we are the exponents of economy. Our opponents do not even pretend to be economical. Their principle is to get all the money they can from the people and distribute it amongst their friends.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that, comparing this extract from that speech of the hon. gentleman with the facts as they appear from the records in this matter, it is yery clear that he has somewhat changed the principle which he there enunciated. He stated that it was the principle of his opponents to get all .the money they could from the peop'e and distribute it amongst their friends. The bon. gentleman has shown that he has followed that principle by getting all the money he could from the people and distributing it amongst his friends, if not himself. These were the principles which were affirmed by the right hon. gentleman. Time after time grave matters of mal-administration in the Department of Indian .Affairs have been brought to the attention of the right hon. gentleman. In each case he has defended, or excused, or, if he has not defended or excused, and if he has been silent, he has been the first to rise in his place to vote down investigation, or the punishment of the offenders or that an inquiry should be held into the transaction referred to. Wherever there was a case of corruption the right hon. gentleman has defended or excused it. Where the public has been robbed he has voted down resolutions condemning the robbery. Where the public service was degraded he has denied an investigation and if public servants have been shown to have stolen from the people he has voted down inquiry, investigation, punishment or condemnation. The right hon. gentleman has lent his moral support to transactions as scandalous as this. He has upheld Siftoniau *deals, he has voted for them, he has approved them and if he does that and if he affirms before this House and the country that he does so approve of them, that he will not lend a hand to punish the offenders or even to inquire whether the accusations and information be correct, than I say that he is standing before this country at this hour, when he is about to ask for the re endorsation of the people, as one who has not elevated public morality, as one who has not done that which he professed and promised to do. which he vowed that he would do and which he pledged himself to do in his great platform and in his great speech of 1903, which induced the people of Canada to entrust to him the reins of power. The right hon. gentleman is very fond sometimes in this House of making quotations from the sayings and speeches of the Hon. Geo. Brown. He will perhaps remember this quotation from that statesman's speech which is pertinent to the position in which he finds himself to-day :
If, sir, a public man avows certain principles, agitates those principles and seeks to
overthrow a government to establish those principles, and when he attains power, laughs at his professions and casts his principles to the winds, he is aiming a blow at public morality.
I ask the right hon. gentleman to take those words to heart in conjunction with the very serious matter which I now commend to his attention and leave with him. There is not a fact that I have stated but which is referred to in the documents in his department. I am not responsible for any of them. Every one of these facts is set forth in the documents extracted from the Department of the Interior. How many more there may be that we have not seen I do not know, but I do know that there has been knitted together a case which the right tiou. leader of the government cannot excuse and cannot justify. One by one these facts have been knitted together and they disclose a transaction which is absolutely indefensible. I have embodied in the resolution which I now propose to offer to the House these facts as they appear and which I will commend to the right hon. leader of the House. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move :
I hat all the words of tile said motion after the word ' that ' be struck out, and the following substituted in lieu' thereof:
The government as trustees for the Indians is bound to sell Indian lands or timber, or other valuables thereon, for the best price obtainable, and to the best possible advantage of the Indians.
That the sale by the government of lands in the townships of Haviland, Tilley and Fisher, in the district of Algoma, with the timber thereon, containing 29,301 acres for $9,017.50 without competition to political friends who were thus enabled to reap profits amounting to $91,813.50,on re-sale of the said lands and timber made by them, before patent issued was not a sale for the best price obtainable, nor to the best possible interest of the Indians, but constituted a grave breach of trust by the government and deserves the condemnation of this House.
I have only to say in conclusion that we have recently had a most emphatic illustration of the wantonuess of this sale in which there was no competition and no public advertisement. We had a sale by public auetiou on the 24th June of Indian timber limits which produced the magnificent sum of $871,000 which went into the Indian funds where it ought to belong in exchange for the timber. In this case, by private sale, $91,000 went into the pockets of the friends and an erstwhile partner among them of the former Superintendent General of Indian Affairs who made the sale.


Frank Oliver: Mr. Speaker, I think it is proper, in discussing the question now before the House, to call attention tc what must be very prominent in the minds of all hon. members. We have before us on the Order

Paper at the end of an eight months' session


Mr. TAYLOR.: For which the government are responsible.


Frank Oliver: Ten Bills of serious importance for the consideration of the House. We have Supplementary Estimates on the table for consideration amounting to something like $10,000,000, railway subsidies of possibly $10,000,000.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
Mr. OLIVER-and we have also a proposition to guarantee certain aid to railways to the amount of something like $10,000,000. There is sufficient important business to claim the best attention of the House for the remaining period of the session, whatever it may be. To occupy the time of this deliberative body for two hours and a half in shrieking into ' Hansard ' the elements of a future campaign address is neither more nor less than an outrage upon parliamentary propriety and the patience of the House. The hon. member knows that in making such a statement at such a time he must have peculiar freedom because no person could take the time or the trouble nor would the House submit to the time or trouble necessary to contradict or disprove the absurdities he has placed before us. My hon. friend, however, has shown himself wiser than the gentleman whose parable he has taken up. whose mantle he seems to think has fallen on his shoulders, the hon. member for St. Antoine Division (Mr. Ames), the slander-monger in chief of our hon. friends opposite.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I think that expression should be withdrawn.


Frank Oliver: I withdraw it, I was so convinced of the truth of it-


Robert Franklin Sutherland: Order. The hon. gentleman knows that it must be unreservedly withdrawn.


Frank Oliver: I have withdrawn it unreservedly.


George Eulas Foster: There is too much of the woolly west in that.


Frank Oliver: The member for St. Au-toine Division (Mr. Ames), if I am not allowed to use the word slander in connection with statements he made before the House, was unwise, he was not satisfied with making them here when there was not a fair opportunity of disproving them. He was so successful in his efforts on the floor of the House that he undertook to carry them further where they could be investigated with an opportunity of determining their truth or falsity, with the result that 'he has retreated from the House to make his peregrinations in the remote parts of Canada with his limelight, his camera, and his micros-Mr. OLIVER.
cope. His usefulness in the House appears to have departed-and he has departed with it. The hon. member for Algoma (Mr. Boyce) is wiser in his generation, he is careful to delay his slander


Robert Franklin Sutherland: The hon. member has heard a moment ago that that statement should not be used.


Frank Oliver: I withdraw the term, I shall use the expression * unfounded and untruthful allegations.' He has chosen a time when the condition of business for the session does not admit under any circumstances dealing with this question either on the floor of the House or in the committee where it should be dealt with. If the one hundredth part of the noise that my hon. friend has made to-day were warranted by the facts and if he did desire to arrive at a knowledge of the facts, he has had eight months of this session, he has had from day to day the sittings of the Public Accounts Committee before which he could have brought his charges, to have proved, if possible, everything he has alleged here. I submit with due deference that allegation is not evidence, particularly at a time when such statements-and they would be grave statements if they came from a grave source-can not be dealt with as their gravity entitles them to be dealt with. My hon. friend must take it as he gives it. Having chosen to put forward these statements at a time when they cannot be proved or disproved he must accept the opinion that they are of but little weight and could not have been proved if he had brought them forward at a time when investigation would be possible.


George Eulas Foster: He dare not investigate them.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend is perfectly safe, there is no danger of investigation between now and the close of the session. My hon. friend has been here nearly eight months, he has been an active and energetic member of the House. The alleged facts he has placed before us are within a stone's throw of where he has lived for ten or fifteen years, but he chooses an opportunity, three days before the end of the session, to bring forward the statement he has made, and which I shall not call slanderous again.
I am somewhat at a loss to know just what my hon. friend's charge is. The allegation would seem to be that certain gentlemen lived in a place called Brandon. If that is a crime, then these certain men, Messrs. Wilson, Philp and Reesor, are residents of Brandon and must be condemned. Is it a crime that this land was sold? The land is of no use to the Indians unless it is sold, It is the price that the Indians want and not the land.


George Eulas Foster: Hear, hear.


Frank Oliver: And so the land has to be sold somehow, somewhere,to some one, at some time. Thus, if I understand the matter correctly, it has been the practice of the department for twenty or thirty years, during part of which time my hon. friend was a member of the government, to make sales of Indian lands under certain circumstances. According to that practice a certain sale was made. Is that a crime? Is that the offence charged against the Superintendent of Indian Affairs of that day or whoever was responsible? If that is the crime, then we must admit they are guilty. Is it a crime that the land was sold at 30 cents an acre ? The timber of value, that is, the pine timber upon it, had already been removed under a license which had covered this same area.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: My hon. friend will pardon me. The land was sold subject to the provisions of a timber lease then in existence, and that was subsequently cancelled, so that the purchasers got the benefit of the cancellation.


Frank Oliver: I repeat that the land was sold subject to the timber license, and the licensees had exhausted their rights, and their rights were cancelled because they had no more rights to exercise, and the purchasers of the land paid extra for the balance of the pine timber that remained upon the tract, and the valuation of the timber was $66. So that the timber of value, the pine timber, had been cleared off before the sale was made. The minerals an the land were also reserved. So that what the purchasers got was the hardwood growing upon the land and the surface rights, for which th.ey paid 30 cents an acre some eight years ago. Now, I am credibly informed that in all this vast area of New Ontario any person may at the present time go anywhere and buy any piece of land for 50 cents an acre, including the mineral rights and the timber rights except the pine timber, and that after performing certain limited settlement duties, and after a period of three years, he gets a patent for the land, including the pine timber. If it as a question of price, it seems to me that the Indians got a better price for their land that was sold eight years ago than the government of the province of Ontario is getting for the land that it is selling to-day. Under these circumstances the charge that there was something wrong in the sale at that price does not seem to be substantiated.
I am mi able to follow all the charges which my hon. friend made. There was a charge that a man lived in Brandon ; there was a charge that the laud was sold ; there was a charge that it was sold at a low price ; there was a charge that it was afterwards sold at a higher price. It had been sold at a higher price, and it had been sold before the patent from the Crown had been issued. What is the charge in that statement of fact ? When a sale is made,
if the purchaser fulfils the conditions, the conveyance has to be given, although the property may increase in value. Now, my hon. friend is of the legal profession, and I do not think he will suggest that the Indian Department, having sold lands at a certain price, and the price having been paid, the department had any right to refuse the conveyance of these lands, no matter whether the right to them had changed hands or not. If he holds that view, it is a decidedly new doctrine to me, and in administering the Indian lands and the Dominion lands, I shall have to take new advice in order to be able to conform to the rule my hon. friend has laid down.
But a charge is that the land was sold at a higher price than it was purchased for. Now, I do not suppose that anybody buys anything as a commercial transaction without expecting to sell it at a higher price. That is what he buys it for ; and does my hon. friend suggest that a sale having been made, if the value of the property increases, the sale must be cancelled ? My hon. friend is not surely so absurd as to hold sueh an argument when it is stated in plain words. And yet, if there is anything in his charge, that is the position which he insists that the Department of Indian Affairs shall take. Well, let us try this question out by a parallel case. There is a member of this House who sits on the opposite side, a man of high repute, personal and financial, a man whose personal honour or whose business honour I think nobody in the House will question ; I speak of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier). This hon. gentleman was a member of a company which had the ownership of certain lands which had been granted to the Regina, Qu'Appelle and Long Lake Railway Company. So far as the matter has come to my knowledge, this hon. gentleman was the chief agent of his associates both in acquiring these lands and in disposing of them. At a certain time, I think in the year 1902, this company-I believe, acting through the agency of the same hon. gentleman-disposed of a quarter of a million of acres of the lands at I think $1.63 an acre. To-day that land is worth $5 or $10 or $15 or possibly some of it $20 an acre. Does my hon. friend suggest that the sale that was made in good faith at the highest going price and through the agency of the hon. member for West Toronto at that time, was a dishonest sale and should be cancelled because that land is worth more today than it was then ? He would not suggest such a thing; he would say that anybody who would suggest it was not speaking with due responsibility.
And yet he stands up here and for two hours and a half he has shrieked into ' Hansard ' denunciations of a certain transaction because the value of the land went up and was sold at a higher figure in a subsequent year. I submit that the position he takes is an absurd one. To say that

because property has been sold at a certain figure at a eertain time and afterwards sold at a much higher figure, the transaction Is not honest, is to draw a conclusion utterly unwarranted. The hon. gentleman drew a comparison between the sale of land in these townships at Batchawana Bay and the sale which recently took place of the timber in the Dokis reserve. He pointed out that, in the first instance, the minister sold the land at thirty cents, and that, in the second instance, a comparatively small area of Indian lands was sold at $871,000. Sir, the comparison is far worse than that. In the case of the $871,000 sale, there was not a foot of land transferred at all. All that was sold was the right to cut the timber for ten years. It is quite possible that the tract to which the hon. gentleman alludes in the first place might have carried timber, but that timber had been cleared away, and to make a comparison between bare land, or more probably rock, and the timber on the Dokis reserve shows the absurdity of my hon. friend's argument from the beginning to the end, and it bears out the view that he would never have made the statement he did. had there been an opportunity to investigate the matter to a conclusion. I do not know that any more need be said. The transaction wa= in the ordinary line of business. It was just the same as those which had taken place in the department during the past twenty or twenty-five years. It differed from them in no particular except in this that some of these people lived at Brandon and that some of them wrote letters and some of them did not. My hon. friend (Mr. Boyce) has followed the example set him by the hon. member for St. Antoine division (Mr. Ames) and has imported into his statement of the case insinuations and suggestions entirely unworthy of being put before a deliberative body. The Indian lands are unquestionably a sacred trust. It is the duty of the government to administer them with the view of obtaining for the Indians their utmost value. These lands are looked upon by the public as a sacred trust, and the hon. gentleman is seeking to take advantage of that sentiment in making this most unfair attack especially at this period of the session. If he could prove that there was anything wrong done, he would have made a point, but he was careful to bring his accusation at a time when there could not be produced any proof.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Can the' minister give any good reason why the land was not put up at public auction ?


Frank Oliver: This land was offered for sale in accordance with the practice of the department which had prevailed for twenty-five or thirty years or more. What was good enough iu preceding years was still considered good enough when this sale was made. And because in the process of time.


Frank Oliver: conditions change and it becomes necessary to adopt new methods, that is no proof that the former administration was improper or dishonest. But my hon. friend jumped to the conclusion that because there has been a change of administration due to the changed conditions, there must have been something wrong with the previous administration. Nothing could be more unfair.


Mr. HAGGART.: A few words in reply to the extraordinary defence of the Minister of the Interior. What is the charge ? The charge made by my hon. friend from Algoma (Mr. Boyce) is that the Department of the Interior, against the advice of the Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, sold property belonging to the Indians, held by us in trust, for a sum altogether inadequate to its value. The hon. gentleman has tried to defend this by citing the policy of the government in the past. Well, if there is one sacred trust which the people of this country should fulfil to the utmost letter, it is that of the Indians. If there is one thing this or any government should be most careful to see to, It is that our wards, the Indians, should receive the highest value for the small moiety of property left to them in this country. There can be no doubt as to the accuracy of the statement made by my hon. friend from Algoma. There can be no doubt that certain parties, clearly connected with the ex-Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) got possession of these lands, belonging to the Indians, for a ridiculously low price, and t3he minister tries to justify this by saying that his predecessor, the ex-minister, (Mr. Sifton) only followed the precedent set him by previous administrations.
The justification pleaded by the minister is that he was following the usual course in the disposition of these Indian lands. I deny that. I give a most distinct and emphatic denial to the statement that it was the policy of the last government to dispose of these lands contrary to the very advice of the deputy superintendent general off Indian Affairs-who, in this case, it appears, declared in his report that the price for these lands was totally inadequate but was overridden by the Minister of the Interior of that day. And in this way these lands were disposed of, these lands which were held as a sacred trust by the government. I say it is a disgrace to the officers of the government and to the Minister of the Interior that such a thing should happen. Where is the authority for the Minister of the Interior to say that this was the mode by which these lands were disposed of in the past ? The policy of the late government was to ask for tenders for these lands. Nothing was more sacred in the eyes of that government than the trust they exercised in these Indian lands, and they did

all in tlieir power to see to it that the Indians got the very last farthing for all the lands that were disposed of. And not only were they careful to act according to the opinion of the chief officers administering the department, but they insisted that the Indians themselves should be a party to the surrender. I da not see anything of that kind here ; certainly it was not stated by my hon. friend (Mr. Boyce) nor was it shown by any of the documents he read that the consent of the Indians had been obtained for the sale of this property. But the bald fact stands out that parties closely connected with the Minister of the Interior of that day got control of these Indian lands, and, even before they had got the conveyance of them, they had turned them over at a profit of $90,000. And this government is trustee for these poor creatures who are not able to look after themselves, who at one time owned all the land of this country of which now but a pittance remains to them. And this is the way the Minister of the Interior of this government exercised the sacred trust reposed in him 

defrauding these poor people of whom we are the trustees of the sum of $90,000. I say it is simply a disgrace to the management of the department that anything of the kind should occur. I say that my hon. friend from West Algoma (Mr. Boyce) did right to draw the attention of the House to the vulgar ostentation of wealth of these parties from one end of the country to the other, wealth obtained by means such ns this. The people of Canada will soon have an opportunity to express their opinion of such transactions, and I hope and believe that the standard of morals among our peo pie is such that the electors will punish such crimes as these, committed by those who have thus unworthily exercised the power of government.


Robert Laird Borden: I desire to say Just a few words in response to the peculiar observations of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver). That hon. gentleman saw fit to apply some strong language to my hon. friend from St. Antoine, Montreal (Mr. Ames). There was good reason for his doing so. For if the minister has had certain workings of his department, which he would have preferred to conceal, exposed before this House and this country-


Frank Oliver: Mr. Speaker, I would like to know if my hon. friend is in order in saying that I desired to conceal the workings of my department ?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I think that that language is not in order.


Frank Oliver: I wish to say distinctly that I do not wish to conceal any part of the working of my department that is rightly the property of the public.


Robert Laird Borden: So far as you find my remark to be out of order, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw it. But I desire to say that it is this same hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) who stood up in his place here and declared that he would not bring down certain original documents which in the end he was forced to bring down. He stood in his place here and read a memorandum from his deputy, reading it as his own, which stated that these original documents should not be placed before parliament. Relying on a majority at his back in this House


Frank Oliver: I desire to correct the hon. gentleman's statement as to that memorandum, I did not read it as my own statement, but as the advice received from my deputy. And, if I remember well, it did not say that these documents would not be brought down-very far from it.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) declared that they should not be brought down until a special vote had been passed for that purpose in this House ; he declared that he proposed to abide by that memorandum and by the advice so received. But the hon. gentleman did not abide by that advice, because, in the end, the original documents were produced and laid on the table of this House without any special,vote of the House being demanded.


Frank Oliver: I desire to correct the hon. gentleman


Robert Laird Borden: I want to be correct.


Frank Oliver: I am sure of it. I objected, and stated to the House my objection, to bringing down private documents to this House, which documents, on motions calling for them being carried, and on the documents being brought down in response to those motions, became part of the records of the House and were removed from being part of the records of the department. And I instanced the case of what had occurred during the session before, when, in response to a motion by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster), certain original documents had been brought down which became part of the records of the House and ceased to be part of the records of the department though they were needed in carrying on the business of the department. And the motions of hon. gentlemen opposite requiring the production of original documents were amended so that these documents did not become part of the records of the House but were laid upon the table for inspection and returned to the department.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) laid great stress upon the circumstance that certain documents

had not been returned. But he knew, and every one knew, that all he had to do was to stand on his feet for thirty seconds and move for an order to return these documents to the department,


Frank Oliver: Precisely.


Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEN-but the hon. gentleman did not think it worth while to do so.


Frank Oliver: I did not think it my duty. The House had seen fit to make these documents part of its records. The House controls its own actions ; and, if it saw fit to do this, certainly it was not for me to take control when control had been taken from me by the House.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose the hon. gentleman is not so absolutely ignorant of the rules of this House as not to know that documents can be brought down only on motion by a member of the House. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver), as custodian of these papers, requires them back, it is his duty to move to that effect.
But this is only an incident. I was referring to the fact that the hon. gentleman had good reason, even in the absence of the hon. member for St. Antoine, to use strong expressions with regard to the course which that hon. gentleman has taken In this House. And the hon. minister (Mr. Oliver) has not heard the last'of it. For, if I am not mistaken, he will hear something from that hon. gentleman in the west; and if he desires to meet my hon. friend from St. Antoine on any platform in the west, a proper amount of time will be given him to make his explanation of the administration of his department. The hon. minister referred to the postponement of this motion, but he did not see fit to say that it had been postponed at his own instance. On at least three different occasions to my knowledge, the matter has been postponed either by the action of the government, or at its request. His allusion to the circumstance that this matter has not been brought up


Frank Oliver: I am not aware-


Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEN-was unworthy of the hon. gentleman and one in which, it seems to me, he ought not to have indulged.


Frank Oliver: I am not aware of having been the cause of the postponement of this motion, and I would like to know when the motion was first proposed.


Robert Laird Borden: The day before yesterday there was an arrangement made for it, that was departed from, and another arrangement was made yesterday and that was again, at the suggestion of the government, altered and a previous arrangement to that, when it was said the hon. gentlc-Mr. R. L. BORDEN
man could not be present on account of a cabinet meeting, was the third to which I have reference. I do not know how many others there were. Under the circumstances, it did not seem to be a happy taunt from the hon. gentleman to speak of postponements. Why should it be postponed ? There is no reason for it. My hon. friend, at the earliest opportunity, was ready to bring it on as soon as he had prepared the case and was able to speak upon it; and when he was ready to bring it on, there were the delays to which I have alluded'. The minister refers to the lack of evidence. The evidence relied on by my hon. friend from Algoma is to be found in the records of the hon. gentleman's own department, brought down and laid upon the table of the House. What better evidence does he want than that?


Frank Oliver: Such part of the record as my hon. friend chooses to pick out and present,


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. gentleman say t-liat there is any other portion of the record which qualifies that which has been alluded to by my hon. friend from Algoma ?


Frank Oliver: The best way to answer that is to bring it before a committee of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: We do not usuallv bring these records before a committee of the House unless there is some fact to be investigated, and inasmuch as the facts were plain and open upon this record, and inasmuch as that portion of the record mentioned by my hon. friend from Algoma is not qualified, so far as I understand, by any other portion of the record, the observation of the Minister of Interior is absolutely beside the mark, and shows his utter incapacity to make any defence whatever to the statements of my hon. friend.
The minister says the statements are grave. He is right, and there has been no answer, except the complaint of lack of time. The minister has had notice of this motion four or five days.


Frank Oliver: I never had any notice of this particular motion. I had notice that my hon. friend proposed to bring up a motion in regard to Indian lands, but I had no notice that they were the Indian lands he has alluded to.


Robert Laird Borden: I accept any correction of that kind.


Frank Oliver: That is not what I was objecting to at all. I objected to his bringing this question forward at a time when the press of the business of the session is such that it cannot be attended to fully, either on the floor of the House or in a committee of the House.


Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEiN. There is no necessity for any committee of the House, there is a necessity for investigating the records of the department which have been laid upon the table. If he has any complaint that all the facts have not been brought out, 1 will undertake to stay here an additional day, and to give him all the time from the present until next Monday, or next Tuesday, or next Wednesday, to go thoroughly through these records and show whether any of the facts stated by my hon. friend from Algoma can be controverted by the records, or in any other way, by the Minister of the Interior.
What is the gravamen of the charge of my hon. friend from Algoma? I accept the comparison of the Minister of the Interior to the ease of a private trustee. What would be thought of a private trustee, and where would he find himself, if, taking the trust property, he sold it upon the statement of a valuator selected by the purchasers, sold it under certain conditions, every one of which was afterwards abrogated, and finally handed it over for a sum of $9,000, although, before the deed was given by the trustee, the purchasers sold it to another person for $101,000? Where would any private trustee find himself under these conditions? In the first place, at the very earliest opportunity, any court of the land would hold this action up to the severest condemnation and would order immediate restitution, with interest. That would be the first proceeding. The next proceeding probably would be, if certain circumstances might fairly be taken into account, that such a trustee would probably be called upon to answer in the criminal courts upon a charge of malfeasance in his office of trustee. Why, the circumstances are almost unbelievable. If any hon. gentleman in this House had arisen and made the statement, without being able to base it upon the records of the Department of the Interior that this particular series of transactions had taken place in that department one would have said that the man was drawing upon bis imagination. And yet every line and every word he mentioned can be substantiated, and has been substantiated by my hon. friend from- Algoma, by a direct reference to the records of the Department of the Interior. There is small wonder that the Minister of the Interior takes up his half hour in making complaints as to the period at which this matter was brought to the attention of the House, and endeavouring to cast slurs and aspersions upon an hon. member wTho is not here to defend himself, and who needs no defence against any attacks that can be made upon him by the Minister of the Interior.
The Hon. gentleman had the temerity to refer to private transactions, and amongst others, to the transactions of my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Osier) in connection with the sale of certain
lands which were afterwards acquired by the gentleman who had formed themselves into that wonderful corporation known as the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. If I am not mistaken, when those lands were sold-I have for this the word of the member for West Toronto, as well as the records of the department, itself-when these lands were sold it was not known that the area within which they might be selected had been enormously increased by an order in council of this government, and that added very materially to the value of these lands. I do not doubt if the member from West Toronto had known at the time, as he has assured me he did not know, that that area had been so extended, the price he would have asked for those lands would have been very much greater. Further than that, what is the idea of the hon. gentleman in comparing a sale of agricultural lands in the west of Canada to the sale of these lands? He knows that the value of those lands, sold, as he says, by a company in which my hon. friend from West Toronto is interested, has been since Increased by settlement, and the development of that country by the influx of settlers. No such conditions prevailed in the district we are now discussing, so far as I am aware, at all events, they did not prevail up to the time of the resale by the purchasers. Will the Minister of the Interior tell me this? What was it that increased! the value of those lands from $9,000, the price received by these fortunate grantees from certain gentlemen from the United States, what was it that occurred to increase the value? Can any one doubt that if these lands had been put up at public auction, and if these gentlemen had had an opportunity to bid for them, the results would have been very different?
Another instance that is most startling in connection with the matter, is this : There was more than one report made to the government as to the value of these lands. There was a report made bv Mr. McAuley, the gentleman nominated by the very men who were purchasing from the government. That is said to have been a sworn valuation. There was another report brought to the attention of the head of the department by a man who had means of knowledge as to the value of the property. We do not know what that man's estimate was; it does not appear as far as I am aware, but it does appear in the records of the department and by the report of the deputy head of the department that the report of that independent man placed the value of this land very much above the amount stated in the report of the valuator selected by the purchaser. Imagine a private trustee acting with respect to a property which was not his own, acting under a trust, having before him two reports, one a report made by persons to whom the

land was to be sold and the other the report of an independent person,imagine him having it brought definitely and distinctly to his attention that the report of the independent person was very much larger in its estimate of the value than the report of the man who had been selected by the purchaser, imagine that trustee, in face of these circumstances, putting aside all further inquiry or investigation into the value of this land, disregarding the report of the independent valuator and taking the $9,000 report of the man who had been selected by the purchaser-imagine that in the case of a private trustee and come to a conclusion, if you please, as to what would be the result of an investigation by the courts into the conduct of any trustee such as that which has been described. The circumstances in the case being as they are I am bound to say that in my estimation, after listening with the utmost possible attention to the speech of my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior, I have heard not a single word uttered by him in defence or justification of the case which has been made out so clearly.


Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Bast Assiniboia).: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to say anything on this subject had it not been for some outside remarks that the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) has brought in and to which I wish to refer for a moment. The leader of the opposition has said that the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) made the statement that he was not aware, that, when the company of which he was the principal member sold some railway lands to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company, this government, by order in council, largely increased the area of the lands and therefore made them more valuable.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not say that it was when the sale was made, but I said that when the hon. member for West Toronto negotiated that sale, as the Minister of the Interior has told us, he was absolutely in ignorance of the fact that the area had been extended.	.


John Gillanders Turriff: That statement of the hon. member for West Toronto is an absolutely false statement in every shape, form and manner.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Shame; order.


John Gillanders Turriff: I have made the same statement in the House before and the statement I make is absolutely true.


Mr. BENNETT.: Order.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I cannot very well rule on that point. A statement is made by one hon. member as to what another hon. gentleman has said and the hon. member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) states, apparently from personal knowledge, that the Mr. R. L. BORDEN
statement is untrue or false. I cannot very well rule that that is out of order.


John Gillanders Turriff: I will say it is absolutely untrue if that will suit hon. gentlemen any better. I will say further that before the hon. member for West Toronto made the sale to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company the Minister of the Interior of that day, on two different occasions a year apart wrote to the solicitor of the hon. member for West Toronto, the man who was handling the case that they had against the government, asking the government to give them cash in lieu of land, sending him a map and stating that there had been set apart 10,000,000 acres of land in addition to what they already had had set apart in 1887.


Robert Laird Borden: May I ask the hon. gentleman who the solicitor is to ijvhom he refers ?


John Gillanders Turriff: I refer to Mr. Creelman who is at the present time the solicitor of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, who, at that time, was solicitor for Osier, Hammond and Nanton, and who had brought action against the government to force the government to pay them cash in lieu of land on the ground that the land was absolutely unfit for settlement. In order to give them a better opportunity of locating their land, the government in 1900 and 1901, set apart four different blocks in addition to what had already been set apart, out of which they might select the 800,000 acres which were coming to them.


Robert Laird Borden: Who had brought action?


John Gillanders Turriff: The Regina, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway Company.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not the records before me, but I have investigated the question very carefully. I have looked over every scrap of paper I could find in two very large returns. I looked up the case after it had been stated in the House that notice had been given, and I can find no such notice had been given, and I can find no notice given to any solicitor which would give the information which the hon. gentleman has stated. I examined the returns with great care because that statement had been made and I could find no notice such as the hon. gentleman has spoken of.


John Gillanders Turriff: If the hon. gentleman will get a copy of the bill of rights that was presented by Osier, Hammond and Nanton on behalf of the railway he will find copies of these letters of the Minister of the Interior to their own solicitor and copies of their letters from their own solicitor back to the Minister of the Interior giving the reasons why they would not take the land in these four new blocks, and saying that they had sent their inspectors over that

land. Not only did the hon. member for West Toronto know that the land had been set apart, but they sent their inspectors over the land, their inspectors examined most of this new area of 10,000,000 acres and they reported back to the government that in the additional area they were not able to find enough land which would come up to the requirements of their contract, that is to say, which was fairly fit for settlement. The Minister of the Interior notified them that if they could not find enough laud within these four blocks and within the original blocks set apart by order in council they could then go outside of these blocks into any land which had not been selected by other railway companies and take what they could get.


George Taylor: What, has this to do with robbing the Indians?


John Gillanders Turriff: It was the hon. leader of the opposition who brought this matter up. I am only replying to a statement made by your hon. leader to show that he has been misled by the hon. member for West Toronto and I am just putting the facts of the case before the House. It has nothing to do with the Indians, it has nothing to do with the matter that is under discussion, cut it was not I who brought it up; it was the hon. leader of the opposition.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend does not desire to mislead the House, I am sure.


John Gillanders Turriff: No.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not introduce it; the Minister of the Interior introduced it.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I think it would be wise not to pursue this subject any further but to confine the discussion to the subject before the chair.


John Gillanders Turriff: I will close in one minute. I want to say in conclusion the t the statement that has been made in this House before and which the hon. leader of the opposition has made now, on the authority of the hon. member for West Toronto, is absolutely without foundation, that there is not a word of truth in it, that when Osier, Hammond and Nanton sold the land to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company there was an increase in the area and that if the hon. leader of the opposition wishes to go into the matter further all he needs to do is to get the bill of rights presented by Osier, Hammond and Nanton or send over to the Department of the Interior and get copies of the correspondence with respect to the matter.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I assume that ns this matter of the sale of land by the trustees of the Regina, Long Lake & Saskatchewan Railway Company has been brought under review you will, Mr. Speaker, make 417
no objection to hearing the statement which I propose to offer with reference to it?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I think it is not relevant to the matter under discussion. It was brought in by way of illustration, as I understand, in the first place, by the Minister of the Interior and was used in the same way by the hon. leader of the opposition. I think the discussion of it is not relevant.


David Henderson: As the statement was made by the Minister of the Interior in reference to my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Osier), which I regard as a very unfair statement, I thought that I, would be entitled to a small modicum of the time for the purpose of placing the matter in its true light before the House.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: On a question of privilege that might be done, but it would seem as if it would lead to a great deal of trouble and confusion if it were done on a specific motion in amendment such as this. I think the preferable course would be for the hon. member to take the matter up on some future occasion.


David Henderson: I shall take another opportunity then of placing the matter in its true light.
House divided on amendment (Mr.	
Boyce).	YEAS : Messieurs
Alcorn,	Lancaster,
Armstrong,	Lefurgey,
Avery,	Lennox,
Barker,	Lewis,
Barr,	MacLaren,
Beattie,	McCarthy (Calgary),
Bennett,	Marshall,
Bergeron,	Martin
Blain,	(Qneen9, P.E.I.),
Borden (Carleton)	, Morin,
Boyce,	Northrup,
Brabazon,	Owen,
Broder,	Paquet,
Chisholm (Huron)	, Perley,
Christie,	Reid (Grenville),
Clements,	Roche (Marquette),
Crocket,	Schaffner,
Daniel,	Sproule,
Elson,	Stanfield,
Foster,	Staples,
Fowler,	Taylor,
Henderson,	Walsh (Huntingdon),
Herron,	White,
Hughes (Victoria),	, Wilson (Lennox &
Kemp,	Addington),
Lake,	Wright (Muskoka)-51.
Lalor,	
Aylesworth,	NAYS : Messieurs Lemieux,
Beauparlant,	Logan, Loggie,
Beland,	



Black,	Lovell,
Borden	Macdonald,
(Sir Frederick),	Maclean (Lunenburg),
Brodeur,	Macpherson,
Brown,	McCarthy (Simcoe),
Caldwell,	McColl,
Calvert,	McCool,
Carney,	McIntyre (Perth),
Caron,	McIntyre
Carrier,	(Strathcona),
Carvell,	McKenzie,
Cash,	McLean (Huron),
Chisholm	McLean (York, C.),
(Antigonish),	McLennan,
Clarke,	Marcile (Bagot),
Conmee,	Marcil (Bonaventure),
Crawford,	Martin (Wellington),
Cyr,	Michaud,
Delisle,	Miller,
Demers,	Oliver,
Desjardins,	Pardee,
Devlin,	Paterson,
Dubeau,	Parent,
Dugas,	Pickup,
Dyment,	Power,
Emmerson,	Pugsley,
Ethier,	Ratz,
Fielding,	Reid (Restigouche),
Finlay,	Rivet,
Finlayson,	Roche (Halifax),
Fisher,	Ross (Cape Breton),
Fortier,	Ross (Rimouski),
Galliher,	Ross (Yale-Cariboo),
Gauvreau,	Rousseau,
Gervais,	Savoie,
Girard,	Schell (Glengarry),
Graham,	Schell (Oxford),
Greenway,	Sinclair,
Harty,	Smith (Oxford),
Huehes	Stewart,
(Kings, P.E.I.),	Talbot,
Hunt.	Telford,
Jackson (Selkirk),	Tobin,
Johnston,	Tolmie,
Kennedy,	Tureotte,
Knowles,	Turgeon,
Lanetot (Richelieu),	Turriff,
Lapointe,	Walsh (Montreal. St.
Laurier (Sir Wilfrid	, Anne),
Lavergne,	Watson.-101.
Amendment negatived.	
DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT.


Mr.   S.@: J, JACKSON (Selkirk). Mr.	
Speaker, before you	leave the chair, I wish
to rise to a question of veracity between the	
hon. member for	Marquette (Mr. W. J.
Roche) and myself	which arose yesterday.
That hon. gentleman made the statement	
that the polling subdivisions in Manitoba were made by the judges, and I denied the statement The hon. gentleman was appealing to the Prime Minister and he said :
I would remind him also that the present provincial polling subdivisions have been created by the judges-not by the Lieutenant Governor in Council nor by the returning officers, but by the judges. There can be no party advantage in arranging polling subdivisions; my objection is based upon the confusion likely to arise in having different polling subdivisions for the Domin'on from those established for the province.


David Henderson: In answer to that I said :
I may state, as the hon. gentleman (Mr. W. J. Roche) is not aware of it, that at present the j udges do not arrange the polling subdivisions, but the government arrange the registration districts and the polling divisions.
The hon. member for Marquette said iu reply :
As usual, the hon. gentleman is speaking without full knowledge when he says that the judges do pot fix the polling subdivisions.
1 would just like to point out to the hon. gentleman that in the Manitoba ' Gazette ' of April 28, 1906, there is a proclamation issued by the Lieutenant Governor, which reads as follows :
Whereas, pursuant to the provisions of the Manitoba Election Act, it is necessary to add to and revise the lists of electors in and for the several electoral divisions of the province of Manitoba, and it is necessary for the said purpose to issue a proclamation containing the information hereinafter set forth.
Now, therefore, we have thought fit and do hereby, pursuant to the powers and authority contained in the Manitoba Election Act, proclaim the following:
>1. That it has been determined to add to and revise the lists of electors for the several electoral divisions of the province, except those of Brandon City, Winnipeg Centre, Winnipeg North and Winnipeg South.
2. That the names and post office addresses of the persons appointed to act as registration clerks in the respective polling divisions of the several electoral divisions are as follows:
It goes on and gives the polling subdivisions for every electoral district in the province of Manitoba. Then it winds up by saying :
In testimony whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent and the great seal of our said province of Manitoba to be hereunto affixed.
On the following page of the 'Gazette' you will find another proclamation :
Whereas it has been determined to add to and revise the list of electors in and for the several electoral divisions in the province of Manitoba, pursuant to the provisions of the Manitoba Election Act, and it is necessary for tbe said purpose to constitute the several judges of the county courts in the said province a board of registration;
Now, therefore, we have thought fit and do hereby, pursuant to the powers and authority contained in the Manitoba Election Act, con-situte the several judges of the county courts holding office in the province of Manitoba a board of registration for all and singular the premises.
I think it is not necessary for me to say anything further on this matter, except to ask the hon. member for Marquette how the judges can. obtain such knowledge of the various electoral districts as to enable them to lay out the polling subdivisions. As a practical politician, he knows that the mem-

bers always lay out the polling subdivisions. The judges would have to travel through every electoral district to get t!he necessary local knowledge to do the work. That is the political end of the business, and it is done by order of Lieutenant Governor in Council on the advice of the local member or the man who has been the candidate in the preceding election.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE (Marquette).: Nothing that the hon. gentleman has said has disproved in the slightest degree the statement I made. He asks what local knowledge the judges of the province of Manitoba have that they can lay out the polling' subdivisions ; and yet we approved yesterday of a section of an Act conferring that power on the judges.


Mr. S. J. JACKSON.: They will have to
come to me for advice in regard to my district.


William James Roche: This is the reason the hon. gentleman has been bringing his influence to bear on the Prime Minister, in order that the judges might go to the member for Selkirk and get advice. Now the cat'is out of the bag. This is the influence behind the Throne. So that after all the judges are not going to lay out the polling subdivisions.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: We will have to give them advice. You will have to give them advice too.


William James Roche: No, my advice will not be asked for. The hon. gentleman has read from the Manitoba * Gazette ' a proclamation defining the polling subdivisions, and he states .that orders in council are issued fixing the dates and places for the holding of the courts of revision. As a matter of fact the judges name the dates and places for the courts of revision and define the polling subdivisions. I have original letters from every judge of Manitoba showing that they fix the dates and places for the holding of courts of revision, as I stated yesterday. There is the order in council approving of every one of these recommendations and that was given out to the public by means of a proclamation, so that the judges in practice appoint the places and the very same practice and procedure is adopted in connection with the polling subdivision. The judges name the polling subdivisions and the Lieutenant Governor in council issues a proclamation making them known to the public.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: Where did that emanate from?


William James Roche: If 'the hon. gentleman wants to read the information, I have it right in my possession now.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: What is the use of looking to a judge against the statute?


William James Roche: I did not wish to place on ' Hansard ' those letters at this late stage, but, as the hon. gentleman seems in'doubt, I shall do so. Here is a letter from Mr. Justice Myers :
Winnipeg, April 7, 1908. James Hooper, Esq.,
Deputy Provincial Secretary, Winnipeg.
Dear Sir,-Replying to your letter of the 4th instant, I beg to say that the following times and places will suit me for holding the court of revision on the list of electors, namely:-
Lakeside at Macdonald, on Monday, June 8, from 11 o'clock, a.m., to 4 o'clock, p.m.; Gladstone at Gladstone, on Tuesday, June 9, from 1 o'clock, to 6 o'clock, p.m.; Beautiful Plains at Neepawa, on Wednesday, June 10, from 10 o'clock to 6 o'clock, p.m.
And so 'on, with each place an the riding. And these places named toy Judge Myers were in every instance adopted and a proclamation issued to the public.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: Those are the courts of revision.


William James Roche: This letter is signed ' Yours sincerely, R. H. Myers,' who used to be the leader of the Liberals in the local legislature before he was made a judge. I have got letters from the other judges in other ridings naming the times and places for the holding of the courts.


Mr. DUNCAN ROSS.: Does the hon. gentleman argue that because the judges have named the places for registration they have also named the polling subdivisions?


William James Roche: I can give the very same evidence with regard to the polling subdivisions. They named the polling subdivisions as well. I also wish to inform the hon. gentleman that I have it on the authority of the King's Printer of Manitoba that the judges were not only asked to name the different places for the holding of courts of revision, but to delimit the boundaries of the polling subdivisions, and they did so, and that was approved by order in council and issued to the public in the form of a proclamation.


DEEP WATERWAYS COMMISSION.
Mr. ANDREW BRODER (Dundas).: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker. I wish to bring up for a few moments the matter of the damming of the St. Lawrence down at the Long Sault. I have in my hand a petition to the International Waterways Commission from parties representing the St. Lawrence Power Company, and it has reference to matters that ought to be brought before this House and country. The American company, called the Long Sault Development Company, and the St. Lawrence Company are iaentical in their interests. The one gets its powers from the Canadian and the other from the American authorities, but there can toe no

doubt that they have a community of interests. The American Power House and Lock Company, known as the Long Sault Development Company, proposeto construct a power house and lock between the foot of the Long Sault island and the main shore, as shown on plan No. 1. Permission has already been granted them by the New York State legislature, authorizing this construction so far as it lies in American territory. What particularly affects the Dominion of Canada is that they propose to dam the St. Lawrence main channel, as well as the south channel, so that virtually the whole river will be dammed at that point. In looking up the correspondence, I find that if they are allowed to do what they want, all the risk will be run by the Canadians and none at all by the Americans.	.
I wish to refer to another matter which ought to be brought to the attention of the House, and that is that the Waterways Commission, in their recommendations, seem to take a line which would permit or justify the Chicago canal. We know that is going to affect Lake Erie, because they are proposing, as a remedy for the damage that that work is likely to do to the navigation of Lake Erie, to dam the lake near the Niagara river. The several reports and data furnished by the commission point to tlie conclusion that for sanitary purposes the Chicago canal will necessarily be allowed. The Chicago people have put up the argument that it is altogether for drainage and sanitary purposes for the city of Chicago, but none the less it will affect navigation. If any of the reports can be relied on, it will lower the water, and I want to draw the attention of the government to this. In every instance in which this matter has been referred to any expert authority under the control of the government, the opinion is given that they have not sufficient data on which to base a judgment. Take all the reports and correspondence, and you will find that no one ventures to express an opinion as to what effect this1 will have on the navigation of the St. Lawrence. That is sufficient reason for our government to say at once that no such thing will be allowed.
Kefei ring again to the proposed damming of the St. Lawrence, when you look up the record you will see that this question was dealt with away back in 1842 by the Ashburton treaty. The seventh clause of that treaty distinctly states :
It is further agreed that the channel, in the river St. Lawrence on both sides of the Long Sault isla ids and- of Barnhart island

It refers to other rivers which I do not need to specify here.
-should be equally free and open to the ships, vessels and boats of both parties.


Andrew Broder: Now, away back as far as 1842-I suppose in part, for the reason that this place is very near the point where the river ceases to be the dividing line between the two countries-this matter was particularly referred to. We should stand on the principle of that treaty, we should maintain the spirit of that treaty, and keep both these channels open to both countries for all time. In the treaty of 1871. while not the same language is used, virtually the same conclusion is reached. And, while I am dealing with the matter. I think it well to state very clearly that the people along the river are very much concerned as to what may be done by the government. We have the assurance, given, I think, last February, by the right hon. Prime Minister that nothing would be done bv the government without all parties affected by such operations being consulted or notified. That is not the exact language, but that is the spirit of the promise given. This is a matter affecting the navigation of one of our greatest rivers, and it ought not to be dealt with in any serious way without the people's representatives in parliament being apprised of the conclusion that is come to. We know that if the people once get the privilege of dammiug that river, laying out millions of money as they propose to do according to their own statement, navigation will be but a secondary consideration with those who hold these great interests. I do not think the government should allow local commercial considerations to affect the navigation of a great river which has been made by solemn treaty, common to the two countries.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Andrew Broder: When the House rose at six o'clock I was arguing that local commercial interests should not interfere with the navigation of a river that was of general importance. Now in order to give the House some idea as to what the St. Lawrence Power Company, in connection with the Long Sault Development Company, are asking the government of this country to do, I wish to read the request that they make upon our government :
(a)	To construct a solid masonry dam from a point near the Canadian main shore, about opposite lock 20, extending to the international boundary line, there to join a darn to be constructed in connection with the works above described in American territory.
(b)	To construct a power house between the northeasterly end of this dam and the Canadian shore, together with a new lock about 2,600 feet west of present lock 20, and an earthen dike, having a top width of about 100 feet, between this power house and lock, also a similar earthen dike extending from this lock northwesterly and parallel to the present

canal, and connecting with the main shore at Milles Roches.
(c)	To enlarge the present channel of Little river as above set forth, to a minimum width of about 800 feet, and to raise the level of the pond above the dams to an elevation five feet higher than the present level of the Cornwall canal above lock 20.
(d)	After the stability of all of the above described works has been satisfactorily proved, to remove the two earthen dams at the easterly and westerly ends of Sheik Island and to enlarge the present channel on the north side of Sheik Island.
And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.
Now that is the proposition. That means to dam the St. Lawrence river at that point from the main shore over to meet similar works on the American side. I want to say this, that you cannot tell, in a work of that kind, what eventuality might arise. Something might occur that might change the whole aspect of that river so far as navigation is concerned, and if anything should occur to transfer the control of the navigation of that river now in our hands, to American control, in which the citizens of the United States were interested, then Canadian interests might suffer very materially. Now it may be quite a surprise to many in this country to learn that the people Sf Canada have not had the use of the New York state canals for thirty-seven years ; for thirty-seven years Canadian marine interests and Canadian vessels have not been allowed to use the New York State canals. Now what does that mean in case anything should be done to transfer the control of the navigation of the St. Lawrence at that point from the Canadian government to the American government ? As I say, you cannot tell what might happen. It is a peculiar circumstance, that while in the treaty of 1871 the United States government stipulated and agreed to urge upon the state of New York the wisdom of giving Canada the use of her canals, whether they carried out that obligation or not, the state of New York has not allowed Canadians to use their canals for the last thirty-seven years. If you go down into the Richelieu river you find that our pulp wood, our lumber and coal go down that river to Lake Champlain in American bottoms. These are things that ought to be considered, and I would like to consider them more at length if time allowed. I certainly think that this is a question deserving of careful consideration by the Canadian government; it is a question that should not be left to one or two men, but should be considered from the national standpoint of keeping that river for the use of Canadian navigation interests. That river is the channel through which imports from Europe are carried into the interior of this country, and it is the great navigable outlet to the sea in the summer time from the interior portion of Canada. It seems to
me the government cannot be too careful in dealing with those interests, because no engineer seems to be able to say what effect the damming of the river at that point, as proposed by these companies, might have on the navigation of the river. We know that the slowing of the current by ice jams some miles below Morrisburg has raised the river ten or twelve feet at Morrisburg. When the ice jams occur some eight miles below, the ice gradually fills in until you can drive across it at Morrisburg. This is the first time that it has been known to have reached as far up as Morrisburg. But it has occurred several times some miles below Morrisburg, and raised the water in the river several feet. If the proposed dams were built, the slowing of the current might bring on this ice jam and cause very serious injury to the people along the shores of the St. Lawrence on either side. There is this point to consider, that if you leave the river in its natural condition, any damage that may occur from ice jams, or from any natural cause, the government of this country could not be held responsible. But if we allow dams to be built across that river then this government would be responsible for damages that might result. I have felt it my duty, as voicing the feelings of my constituents along the river in that section of the country, to draw the attention of the House and the government to this important matter, and I regret that the time at our disposition will not allow me to pursue the subject further.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I did not think that this matter would come up for discussion at the present time. I may say that I have long taken a very keen interest in the development of power on the St. Lawrence river at or near the town of Cornwall. The hon. member for Dun-das (Mr. Broder) has expressed my sentiments when he says that the question of navigation is one of paramount importance, and if I considered for a moment that the accomplishment of this scheme would in any way injuriously affect the navigation of the St. Lawrence river, I would oppose it strenuously. But, Mr. Speaker, the matter is in that stage that I do not think this House is in a position intelligently to discuss it. The Canadian sections of the Deep Waterways Commission have given this matter a great deal of consideration, and in their report they express themselves as not yet having come to a conclusion, and they desire to get the very best expert engineering evidence before they finally report on the matter. I may say that the constituency which I have the honour to represent is vitally interested in this question.
We have had meetings of our town council and our board of trade and delegations have been sent to appear before the Deep Waterways Commission to urge upon them
1314V

that they give to this matter their most serious consideration. The Deep Waterways Commission have not acted hastily in this matter. They have held meetings at different times. They held a meeting in the city of Toronto and after they had had some representations against the scheme they, for the convenience of the people who might urge opposition to this scheme, adjourned their meeting to Montreal so as to give every one interested an opportunity of being heard. Not one engineer in this or any other country has put himself on record as saying that this scheme will injuriously affect navigation. On the other hand we have the reports of the most eminent American, Canadian and English engineers to the effect that this scheme would not only not injure navigation on the St. Lawrence, but would be of incalculable assistance to it. We saw what occurred here a few days ago. We have a canal, over 9 miles in length, some G or 7 miles of that canal are separated from the river by an earth embankment and a greater strain is being put upon the banks of this canal year by year by the increased size of the vessels. They are not increased in length because the locks will permit of a vessel of only a certain length passing through, but they have been increased in width and in carrying capacity. To-day we have vessels going through that canal carrying 80,000 and 90,000 bus.'hels of grain and with the increased displacement of water there is greater pressure put upon these banks. In 1903 I put myself on record in this House in favour of a lock at the foot of Sheik's Island dam, into the St Lawrence river. If that lock had been built, and engineers of that day. said it was quite feasible, we would have had no delay to vessels passing through the Cornwall canal. There would have been no request for a vote of $150,000 to repair break as it is very probable there would have been no break as vessels could have come down Sheik's Island dam, passed through that lock into the St. Lawrence and gone on- their way saving the time that it now takes to pass through five locks which is considerable, and saviag danger to banks of canal from large vessels passing through canal. My remarks at that time are to be found in ' Hansard ' of 1903, page 14137. I said : I
I understand from those who are engaged in navigation that a saving of an hour or two could be made by having a lock immediately east of the Sheik's island dam, which would let vessels into the St. Lawrence river without going down through three locks to the eastern end of the canal; and it would also permit all vessels to come up and enter the canal just at the foot of the dam and go through the Cornwall canal in a very short space of time. Vessel owners have told me that it would be an immense saving if that lock were put in, not only a saving of expense, but a great saving of time in passing through the canal.
Mr. PRINGLE
It would not have been a very expensive lock. It would have paid for itself between 1904 and the present time. That is practically the scheme now. The scheme to-day is to have a lock, or two locks, where this dam will be built so that vessels coming through Sheik's Island dam may pass on into the St. Lawrence, saving time and expense. This is a matter of the utmost importance to the whole surrounding country but it should not in any way influence myself or any man in this House in favour of this scheme if it is not practicable and if it is likely in any way to interfere with navigation. What are the objections we find ? My hon. friend has said that no engineer has been able to say what effect it would have on navigation. I ask my hon. friend to read the reports of the engineers who have investigated this matter most thoroughly and who say that the scheme would not be objectionable from the point of view of navigation but that on the other hand it would assist navigation.
There are one or two objections made with regard to this scheme. One is that it will prevent certain tourist steamers passing through the Long Sault rapids. I say at once that it will. For four months there are certain tourist steamers which pass down the Long Sault rapids. They say it will' destroy the scenic hffect. What does one eminent engineer say in regard to that ? He says :	' Take the great dam
on the Nile-I think it is called the Assouan dam ; that dam is bringing yearly increasing numbers of visitors to see its beauties. It is possibly the largest dam in the world.' When this dam is constructed on the St. Lawrence it will be the largest dam in the world and the beauty of the dam will be just as great as the beauty of the Long Sault rapids. But this is not the only rapid we have. There is a chain of rapids all down the St. Lawrence and many boats pass down through them to the city of Montreal. Now, it is said that it will back up the water on the property west of the Cornwall canal. What do the engineers say ? The engineers say that it will back up the water as far as Farran's Point canal and they say that in so far as Morrisburg is concerned the effect will be practically nothing, that it will be nil.


Samuel Hughes: How many miles will that be ?


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: It will be 15 or 16 miles. There is a drop in the river from Morrisburg to where this dam would be erected of between 13 and 16 feet. We have between Morrisburg and the Long Sault a small rapid opposite Farran's Point and engineers say that it would practically do away with this rapid. It is a great inconvenience now to navigation and why ? Because steamers going west have to take to the Farran's Point canal instead of keeping to the river as they could not possibly


IS, 1908
[Stage Direction]
take their heavy loads up that raipd current. | This would do away with that inconvenience. The moment they came within the influence of this dam they would have practically smooth water until they got to Mor-risburg where they would take to the Mor-risburg canal. I ask the House to pardon me ; I know we are pressed very much for time, but this is a matter that could not be discussed intelligently in fifteen or twenty minutes. I have not taken up the time of this House for some time and it is a very important matter. For myself I do not see the necessity of it being brought ud at the present time because I am quite satisfied that the government would not consider entering into any arrangement for the construction of this dam until such time as they not only had a report from the Canadian section of the Waterways Commission, but until such time as they had brought the matter before this House where it could be very thoroughly discussed. My bon. friend has spoken of the channels. To-day all south of Barnhardt's island is the American channel which is practically the only navigable channel; 95 per cent of the water flows through that channel and only 5 per cent through what is an international channel, being the channel between Barnhardt's island and .the Canadian shore. The effect of the construction of this dain will be to send 50 per cent of the water to the Canadian side and 50 per cent to the American side. It is well to talk of the beauties of the St. Lawrence : nn one nnpi'e-ciates more than I do the grandeur of the Long Sault rapids, but I believe there will still be great beauty there after the construction of the dam and we will have hundreds of thousands of horse-power to be used by our people in manufacturing on the Canadian side. There will no doubt be a large development of power on the American side; they have it to-day. The Long Sault Power Company have their power at Messina. What has been the. result ? The construction of one of the greatest works in the United States. The Pittsburg Reduction Company have put up an enormous establishment there. They, came to us ; I went with them personally as I was anxious to see the work located on our side. They went over the St. Lawrence Power Company's scheme but found there was no possible way of getting more power than there is at the present without an enormous expense and they turned it down. They established their Canadian institution at Shaw-inigan Falls and built one of their American institutions right across from us. We wanted that industry and would have had it if we had the powers which we will have under this project. A great deal has been said by the lion, member for Grenville (Mr. J. D. Reid) against the St. Lawrence Power Company. It has been one of the best developments in eastern Ontario.
Mr. J. D. REID.: It has the largest rake-off of any company in Canada.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I do not know aything about the rake-offs, and I am not discussing the contract that has been threshed out before. It has been an enormous benefit. Only a few years ago one of our woollen mills closed down and had to go out of business. We were able to have it reopened because of the electrical power and to-day it is employing three or four hundred men in a different class of industry and owing to the power we have had other factories located there.
We suffer in Cornwall from floods in winter, caused by the frazil that comes down, forms in the rapids and passes under the ice which has become solid, causing a shove. The result has been that portions of the town have been flooded, and mills have been closed for weeks.' One of the largest of the cotton mills was flooded. These people are naturally interested in seeing this scheme go through, so long as it does not impair in any way the navigation of the Sit. Lawrence. They know from the engineers' reports that the result will be no floods in the winter. This water will be hemmed back, it will form almost level to the dam, will freeze solid there and there will be just a natural flow over the dam with no possibility of the injurious floods we have had in years past. On one occasion the government had to come to the rescue of people who had suffered from one of those heavy floods. It has been said that the American section of the International Waterways Commission nave reported favourably on this. If they have it has been after giving the matter the greatest possible consideration. When the Canadian section of the International Waterways Commission said to Mr. Calvin, to the Richelieu and Ontario Navigation Company and others who were opposing this scheme r Nominate an engineer and we will appoint him and get him to look into the matter and see what his report will be, they did not take the responsibility of nominating an engineer because no engineer would stand for the statements made by some of those people that the erection of this dam would decrease the flow of water east of Cornwall. Some went so far as to say it would affect the flow of water ait Montreal, but that statement was so ridiculous that they could not get any engineer to endorse it. The effect of this scheme would be that instead of only 5 per cent of the waters of the St. Lawrence going down on the Canadian side we would have 50 per cent. The effect, would be to give us all the power that could be developed, practically unlimited power, whereas we are now absolutely limited. It is no wonder that some of the power companies are instrumental in putting up opposition to this scheme. This development would be one

of tremendous advantage to the whole eastern portion of Ontario and I am satisfied it would be of great advantage to the county of Dundas, which my hon. friend (Mr. Broder) represents. While the Minister of Railways lias been expressing his opinion against this scheme it would tie a tremendous advantage to his own constituency for this power would be taken to Broeliville where it is needed, more than in any other town in Ontario. I have refrained from speaking on this before because I felt that we had not all the information before the House required for a full and intelligent discussion of the question, but when the hon. member for Dundas (Mr. Broder) opposes it in the dying days of the session, I feel that in the interests of the eastern portions of Ontario, especially in the interest of the county of Stormont, if this scheme does not injuriously affect navigation, but on the contrary, aids and assists it, the government should give it careful consideration and should procure all possible information on the subject before any agreement is entered into or any permission given for the erection of this dam. Of course 1 foresee that the permission would have to be a joint permission of the United States and Canada, but nothing T think should be done until the whole matter comes before parliament.


John Dowsley Reid: I protest absolutely' against the dam being built. It certainly would be unfair to have it built and destroy the navigation on the St. Lawrence. The hon. member for Cornwall (Mr. Pringle) complains that I have been finding-fault with the St. Lawrence Power Company. I have not been finding fault with them as a corporation, I have been criticising the agreement made by this government with the St. Lawrence Power Company for eighty-nine years, which . I think is' outrageous, while the price the government are paying this company is simply absurd. A scheme of this kind is such a great scheme, affecting the w-hole marine interests in this country, that I think no action should be taken by the government in regard to it until the whole matter is submitted to parliament. I only rose to ask if the Prime Minister can see his way to give us a promise that no action will be taken in the direction of granting a charter or the right to dam the River St. Lawrence until the matter is submitted to parliament and thoroughly discussed here. The right hon. gentleman did state a few months ago that nothing would be done until everv one had an opportunity of being heard; but I think we should have that opportunity in parliament, and if the Prime Minister would give us that promise, I do not think there will be any reason for detaining the House any longer at this time, as the matter could come up next session.


George Perry Graham: Being conversant with the territory covered by this discussion, Mr. PRINGLE.
there is a great temptation for me almost to attempt to make a speech; but I will resist the temptation. This is a matter that was brought before the department some months ago, and it was placed before members of the government-the premier, I think the Minister of Public Works, and myself. It is a matter of such great importance that it could not be dealt with quickly or without the gravest consideration. The government feeling that it affected particularly three departments-the Marine Department, the Public Works Department and the Railways and Canals Department-appointed a chief engineer of each of those departments, and these three form a committee, as it were, to-look into the matter from the departmental standpoint. They have not yet submitted to their respective departments the result of their investigation; they have not yet had time to do so. But, to be very brief, the matter is of such great importance-and there are two sides to it-that before anything could be done it would require the best consideration of the best talent that could be brought to bear upon it. The government has no idea of taking any steps to commit the country to anything in connection with this scheme until parliament has a full opportunity to discuss it and approve or disapprove of it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Steam service between Canada and Australia, $180,509.
William Stevens Fielding: This Is not a new service, but it was not included in the main estimates owing to negotiations which were taking place in connection with the contract.	[DOT]


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does my hon. friend know the company that is doing the service?


William Stevens Fielding: It is the same company as before. I think it is called the Union Steamship Company. Sir James Mills is the manager of it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it an English company?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, with Sieadquarters in London.
Additional amount required for the Canada, Japan and China service, $18,666.66.


William Stevens Fielding: This arises from a readjustment of the service with the imperial government under which we are obliged to pay somewhat more than we formerly did.
To provide for the appointment of a post office inspector, an assistant inspector and three clerks at North Bay, Ontario, $5,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: Will there be an office there for the staff?


Mr. LBMIEUX.: Yes.


Mr. DANIEL.: Who is to occupy the position of additional post office inspector for New Brunswick?


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is a matter of promotion, and we have not yet decided, but will in a few days.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Has the hon. gentleman filled the place of the late Mr. Ryan?


Rodolphe Lemieux: We shall in a few days. Mr. Gross, the senior officer, and an old and faithful employee, will be given the appointment.


Mr.  J. D.@: ItEID. I thought I saw that Mr. Hawken is going to be superannuated.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes ; he was appointed before confederation, and has on many occasions applied for superannuation, tie has done very faithful service, but of late the office has been rather in want of a younger man.


Mr. FOWLER.: I have a letter from a constituent of mine who is a mail carrier and has not received justice at the hands of the department. I refer to Mr. Gibbons, who has a claim some three years old. He had a mail contract and he went to Clifton, some ten or fourteen miles further than his contract called for. He sent in a claim for something over $100 and the department offered him $28, which he indignantly refused.


William Pugsley: I urged his claim on my hon. colleague's predecessor very strongly some time ago.


George William Fowler: This matter has been before the department some time. I am afraid the Minister of Public Works could not have urged it with his usual vigour, or it would have been paid long ago.


William Pugsley: I pleaded very strongly.


George William Fowler: I am satisfied that if the facts were put before the Postmaster General he would recognize the justice of the claim. A department with a constantly inci'easlng surplus does not want to get services for nothing.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If my hon. friend will send in this claim I shall give it every consideration.


Mr. STAPLES.: What progress is the hon. minister making towards the establishment of a post office at St. Charles? The people are extremely anxious to have one, and write me frequently about it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Some weeks ago I established a post office at the request of the people of the locality, selecting what I thought the best site, near the church. But I have received a complaint from some petitioners who say that this is not the proper site. There is a difference of
opinion among the people on this point. I have written to the inspector, Mr. McLeod, at Winnipeg, asking him to make a choice of a site.


William D. Staples: It will depend on the inspector ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, he will make the selection.


George William Fowler: I have found the letter of which I was speaking. The writer says :
They made me carry the daily for a month from Clifton, also the Long's cove bag for a time. And about three years ago the inspector had a bill made for me of $111.43.
The inspector is Mr. Colter, of St. John.
I was not quite satisfied and wanted $124, and sent this bill to the Deputy Postmaster General, but have heard nothing of it since.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Perhaps this was sent at a time when the Deputy Postmaster General was away. He was absent on leave for four months. I will see that the papers are brought before me and that justice !s done.


George William Fowler: Does that mean that you will send the cheque in the moi mug ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Practically so, if the claim is a valid one.


Mr. WHITE.: Has the department come to a decision respecting the establishment of a post office at Graham Station ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have asked the inspector to give me a fresh report, as there are conflicting statements with regard to that post office. I am sure that the distance justifies placing a post office at that point, but I will act on the report of the inspector.


Mr. .CROCKET.: Does not the department issue a monthly circular showing the new post offices established during the month and the changes made in existing offices ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Why is it not sent to members of this House ? I am sure it is information that would be of use to them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will see that that is done.' [DOT]


Mr. LENNOX.: At Barrie, there are two post offices, one in the old part of the town and one at Aliandale, known as Allandaie post office. I understand that letters transmitted from one post office to the other must bear a two-cent stamp. I called the Postmaster General's attention to this some time ago and, as I recollect it, he said the matter would be adjusted when the Bill went though. I have a letter which I have forwarded to the Postmaster General from a constituent of mine, not a political supjxo*[DOT]-ter I am sorry to say. who asked me to in quire into the matter. He says that the postmaster at Barrie informs him that he

has no instructions on the subject, and the two-cent rate is still charged.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The one-cent drop letter rate will come into effect as soon as the Bill is sanctioned.
Miscellaneous-amount required co piy losses sustained by Chinese residents of Vancouver in connection with the riots of Vancouver in September, 1907, and the legal expenses arising out of the inquiry into the same, $26,990.
Mr. BERGERON'. Are we to expose ourselves to such damages every time there is a row between whites and the Chinese in Vancouver ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It has Deen a good lesson, and I hope it will be the last.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How much are the legal expenses ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: About $1,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is not this a municipal matter ? If there were a riot in Ottawa or Montreal, would not the municipality have to pay the damage ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is a difference in this case. I do not wish to excuse the acts perpetrated in September last, but my hon. friend will understand that this is quite different from a riot taking place, say, in Ottawa, where there is only one nationality -that is, we are all Canadians. But this riot in Vancouver was engineered, I am sorry to say, not by our own people, but by foreigners

Mr. SAM, HUGHES. Galvanized Yankees.
Mr. LEMIEUX 

and directed against
other foreigners. They have appealed to their respective governments for redress and payment of the losses that have been suffered. We thought, under the circumstances, the government should see that this amount was paid, I hope we shall not hem any more of such riots.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Are we paying for houses wrecked, glass broken and that kind of thing ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bergeron) will refer to the report 1 laid on the table some time ago, first as to the Chinese claims, then as to the Japanese claims, he will see that the whole matter was sifted to the bottom. Mr. King went to Vancouver and took evidence. He had ,an attorney there to represent the government, and there were legal representatives of the Chinese and Japanese governments. No fancy damages are to be paid or were paid.	[DOT]


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: No doubt about that; but if these people enjoy this sport and go in for another row, will the government of Canada have to pay for the pots cassfis ?


Haughton Lennox: 


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think we must regard this case as exceptional.


George William Fowler: Does not the head tax paid by the Chinese go to the Receiver General ?


William Stevens Fielding: Only half of it; the other half goes to the provincial government.


George William Fowler: I was going to say that if the government receives the head tax it is only reasonable they should pay the damages.


Samuel Hughes: If this government is taxing Chinese who come in $500 a head, will he undertake to tax these galvanized Yankees, these anarchists who come in, $500 a head ?
Expenses of Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the losses and damages sustained by the Chinese population of the city of Vancouver on the occasion of riots during September, 1907 (payments on account of services rendered may be made to any member of the Civil Service notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act), $1,165.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Was that for salaries ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: To pay the expenses of (ho inquiry-shorthand writers, typewriters, and so on.
Expenses of Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the method by which oriental labourers have been induced to come to Canada (payments on account of services rendered may be made to any member of the civil service notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act), $3,311.


Samuel Hughes: Has this commission succeeded in connecting Mr. W. T. R. Preston With the inducing of these oriental immigrants to come to Canada ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am glad to be in a position to assure my hon. friend (Mr. Sam. Hughes) that Mr. Preston has nothing to do with the influx of orientals into Canada. Quite the contrary. I met Mr. Preston when in Japan, and I am in a position to say he is rendering very valuable service to this country on this question as well as in relation to commerce. He is a good and very efficient officer of the government.
To provide for expenses of Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the industrial disputes in connection with the cotton industry in the province of Quebec, $2,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What has the commission to do? Would my hon. friend tell us how It is going to work?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The commission has begun its sittings in Montreal to-day, as I see by the Montreal 'Star,' and several witneses have been summoned, and Mr. King is hearing evidence. My hon, friend will remember under what circumstances this eommis-

sion was appointed. During the month of May, a strike occurred at several points in the province of Quebec, at Montmorency, at Yalleyfield in the county represented by my hon. friend, at Magog and in Montreal. I was asked as Minister of Labour to intervene between the mill owners and their operatives. All I did was to promise the men that if they would return to work and accept the sataus quo I would appoint a commission. They said :	We do not know
what to do. One month we are told that our salaries are cut down by 10 per cent, and we do not know whether the financial position of the cotton industry is such as to justify a reduction in our salaries, therefore we ask the government to appoint a commission to investigate the circumstances. I did not make any promise, but I returned to Ottawa and submitted the case to the cabinet, and it was decided to appoint Mr. Mackenzie King, who has had large experience in these matters, to hold an investigation. He will confine his activities to the province of Quebec, and will ascertain whether it is true that the salaries have been necessarily reduced on account of over production, as it is claimed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Several delegates from the cotton workers met the hon. gentleman in Montreal, I believe. What did they say to him, and what answer did he give them?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not exactly remember the answer I gave. But they represented to me that they lhad suffered two reductions in wages within the last five or six months, ten per cent one time, and ten per cent at another time, and they gave me the facts and figures. They showed that the average wages paid to men in Montreal was $10 or $11 per week, including men, women and children. I thought that was not a very high wage in these prosperous times. They said that there were some people working in those factories, even some mechanics, who were only receiving $5 a week. The delegates represented about 5,000 working people, and they said they would accept the conditions offered by the mills and return to work provided the government would appoint a commission to investigate the situation, and see whether it was true that the cotton market was glutted with goods, and that the owners were justified in reducing their wages in consequence.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What kind of an investigation is Mr. King holding? Some time ago I remember my hon. friend saying that Mr. King, or some other commissioner, would ask the company to show their books and to reveal the stocks they had on hand, and generally the financial condition of the company, and whether they were in a position to pay higher wages to their operatives. I told my hon. friend that I did not think the commissioner could force the company to show their books, and I am under the same
impression still. I would ask my hon. friend to say how Mr. King can force any one of those companies to bring forward their nooks and show whether, from the condition of their business, they are able to pay the higher wages that they have so far refused to pay.


Rodolphe Lemieux: They will not be bound to pay higher wages, even if it is proven by their books that they have the means to do so, but the investigation will allow the public to judge who is right and who is wrong. The !hon. gentleman questions Mr. King's power to examine the books. I think he is mistaken, because Mr. King is appointed under the Great Seal, he has a, royal commission, and it gives him power to investigate the books of the company.


Samuel Hughes: Does Mr. King's commission empower him to inquire into the relationship existing between the cotton industry here in Canada and that industry in other countries, and to consider whether the Canadian tariff is high enough to protect these industries? Perhaps the Minister of Finance could answer that question. Has Mr. King power to investigate the effect of the tariff upon Canadian industries ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, I should say not.


Samuel Hughes: That is the whole question.


William Stevens Fielding: That is a matter of opinion, some people think it is not.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I believe that there is something wrong in the present condition of the cotton industry. I am better acquainted with that than with the woollen industry, although I know that in my county the woollen industry is closing down this week, and will not resume unless there is a change in the tariff. But the cotton industry has been a subject for politicians to make capital out of. A man by the name of Paquette is playing a great game in Montreal to help the Liberal party. He has become one of the leaders of tbe workingmen, and has got them to believe that he is a very powerful man. But he made a mistake the last time because he thought the elections would take place in the fall. He was foiled in his attempt at that time; though he succeeded once before, when I was the victim. The workingmen were deceived, I was defeated and another man gained the seat. Now this is what I wish to bring to the attention of the House. On the last occasion only a few men went on strike, the mule spinners I believe they are called, who furnish work to the great body of the other workers in the mills, and when the mill spinners strike there is nothing for the other operatives to do. But the other operatives were not quite ready to follow their example, they became frightened. The manager of the mills had told them in a very candid manner that he could not pay them the wages which they

had been receiving. I may say that a year ago this man Paquette brought on a strike just at the time that the mills were in need of their men, they had orders from the west to fill, and they were caught by the throat, and had to give a 20 per cent increase of salary. But a change took place, orders were cancelled all over Canada, and then the manufacturers told their men in a very honest way that they could not continue paying the same salaries and keep their mills running, that they could only keep their mills running on condition of a reduction of 10 per cent in wages. Well, the men did not believe that, the agitators told them that it was not true. So when the mule spinners did go on strike, about one hundred of them, the mills were closed down, and the men were thrown out of work. There was an over production of goods, the stores were filled with merchandise, orders were cancelled, and the strike could not have occurred at a more convenient time for the employers. This took place during the last local elections. Now what I complain of is that Liberal politicians are responsible for this trouble, and the Minister of Labour is responsible.
The Minister of Labour gave these men to understand that they would appoint a royal commission, that that commission would settle matters, that it would go to the factory and find out, by looking at their books, if the company were in a jiosition to pay the workingmen what they were asking or not. That was very unfortunate. My hon. friend knows that the Investigation Act passed last year gives him authority to compel public utilities to disclose tLeir affairs, but that he has no right to go to a private concern and ask them to open their books to him. These men relied upon the statement of my hon. friend that he would do something 'for their relief, and they did not go back to work for nearly three weeks, involving a loss of about $150,000 in wages and otherwise. When I saw the appointment of the royal commission published in the papers, it struck me that it would be of no use. Mr. King, whether he is appointed under the Great Seal, or twenty Great Seals, could not, under the law, force any company to show their books if they refused to do so. We should be honest about this. What the cotton and woollen industries are complaining of is the tariff. My hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) knows very well that there are gentlemen sitting behind him who have been for the last ten days worrying him to do something with respect to the tariff. About $14,000,000 worth of cottons and about $10,000,000 worth of woollens come in to compete with the workingmen of Canada. You may appoint all the commissioners you like, you may drag the Great Seal from one end of Canada to the other, but until you give protection to these industries they cannot compete with the product of Mr. BERGERON.
foreign workmen. You cannot pay a man $2 a day to make cotton and expect him to compete with a man in England who will work for 00 cents a day. Moreover, we give a preference to induce manufacturers in Great Britain to send cotton into this market. These factories in Canada to-day are working just on tolerance. At any moment they may close their doors, because they are not making any money. We cannot expect people to put their money into industries only to lose it. It is a matter of tariff and nothing else, and the appointment of this royal commission is only throwing dust in the eyes of these workingmen. It would have been better if the minister had gone to them and said : We cannot do anything for you ; you will have to go to your employers and leave it to them ; if they are in a position to pay you more wages they will, and if they are not we cannot help it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course, I am not going to discuss the question of protection, it is late in the session to take up tariff matters. If, as the hon. gentleman says, this commission has been a sham to throw dust in the eyes of the public, I could have appointed it during the local campaign in May. But I did not do so. It is my duty as Minister of Labour to adjust any differences that may exist between capital and labour, and powers are conferred for that purpose upon the Minister of Labour by the Act. Yes, it is my duty to see that differences are adjusted between capital and labour. Here, in the case, were 0.000 men parading the streets of Montreal, Yalley-field, Magog and near the city of Quebec, and they were complaining bitterly that they could not stand the reduction which was imposed, that the reduction was too severe. I sasr ' imposed ' ; I do not know if circumstances imposed that reduction upon them or not.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: If the manufacturers cannot pay them any more, what are you going to do about it?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I heard their side of the story. I heard from Mr. Gordon, of Montreal, and I saw Mr. Simpson in Val-leyfield.


Albert Edward Kemp: Tell us what they said?


Rodolphe Lemieux: They said it was a question of tariff. But still the operatives retorted :	They cut down our wages and
they continue paying the same dividends, and in s.ome cases pay increased dividends. I am not saying that statement is true. I have not ascertained for myself, except in a general way. But, Sir, as Minister of Labour was it not my duty to say to these 6,000 men parading the streets : Return to your work ; you have not the means to remain on strike. I advised them, in a fatherly way, to return to work so as to help their

families. They promised me that t!hey would return to work provided an independent commission was appointed to investigate the differences between themselves and their employers. The commission has been appointed. No man is better equipped to conduct such an investigation than the Deputy Minister of Labour, Mr. King. He is now proceeding with the work, and we will see what his report is.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Carried.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: My hon. friend says that he met these men, and that he told them in a fatherly way to return to work and he would see that a royal commission was appointed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The royal commission was not appointed, and as a consequence of that they did not go back.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The commission was appointed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Not at that time.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Mr. King was away.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: But I understand that my hon. friend says that he could have appointed somebody else.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And nobody else was appointed at the time ; the consequence was that these men remained out of the mills when they would have gone back to work. They waited until they were starving, and they do not believe any more in the promises of the hon. gentleman, or in what is told them by agitators who, if they went to Valleyfield, would be thrown into the water. They have gone back to work : they could not get anything to eat in the butchers' or grocers' shops, but they went back to the mills and begged to be given work. They are out of the union to-day, and I pity the man who goes there to advise them to go into a union after this. They said : We want to work ; we do not want to starve. The manager said : I will give you work at the rate of pay that I can afford to give you. My hon. friend says that these cotton companies are continuing to pay dividends. These men cannot put their money into these industries as a matter of public charity. They go into them with the idea of making money, and it is a good thing that they should make money. When they erect buildings like those which they have erected in Valleyfield, at a cost of $3,000,000. they do not do it for public charity, nor for their health but to make money, and if they do not make money they cannot employ
3.000	or 4.000 men. Mr. Simpson, of the Valleyfield mills, said to them : ' I will pay you as much as I can afford to ; later on, if I can afford to do so, I will increase your wages.' We know that to-day, under this
government, it costs the workingman 50 or 00 per cent more to live. The workingman who got $1.50 a day before this government came into power could live better than he can to-day at $2 a day. The crux of the whole situation is the tariff, and it would be a great deal better to say so instead of pursuing the course which the hon. minister has in appointing this royal commission. The Minister of Finance knows that there are lots of men in this House sitting behind him who are asking him to-day to do something with the tariff with regard to cotton and woollen_ goods, and, if that is so, there is no use trying to deceive us. These industries, cotton and woollen, cannot continue in a prosperous condition in Canada.


William Stevens Fielding: It may be well for my hon. friend to include in his statement to his friends in Valleyfield, that just across the border in the United States, where they have the blessing, if it be a blessing, of a much higher tariff than we have, the paralysis of the cotton industry was worse than in Canada.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I will not deny that but the circumstances are entirely different and my hon. friend knows, or if not he should know, that if we had not imported $14,000,000 worth of cottons and if they had been made in this country these working men would be continuing to work at the rates of two years ago.


William Stevens Fielding: That is quite debatable but it is too late to debate it.


Richard Blain: Does Mr. Mackenzie King receive a special salary in addition to his regular salary ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Oh no, just his regular salary.


Albert Edward Kemp: What instructions has Mr. King as to the basis upon which he should go in forming his indgment ? Has he been instructed to consider the tariff and dividends ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: As will be seen from the papers he has summoned not only the employees but the employers. Several leaders in the cotton industry appeared in the court to-day in Montreal and offered their evidence. They offered to show their books to let Mr. King see what shall be seen. Mr. King of course will exercise his judgment. He is called on not to form a judgment but to report on what he will learn through the investigation.
To meet the cost of boring for oil, coal, gas, etc., $35,000.


Samuel Hughes: Would the minister give some explanation of the boring for oil ?


Mr. TEMPLEMAN.: We have given some assistance towards boring for gas near Calgary and for coal in the province of Nova

Scotia bv private companies. After a company had sunk a hole 1,000 feet we gave in one instance $3 a foot for every foot below the 1,000 feet. We have $35,000 in the supplementary estimates and from this we purpose eiving some assistance towards carrying on boring operations in Prince Edward Island. Representations have been made to us by the provincial government and others that the Geological Survey has carried on little work there since confederation. No coal has been discovered in Prince Edward Island although our geologists say there is a reasonable prospect of finding coal there and we purpose spending $20,000 or $25,000 in sinking three or four holes in different parts of the island in the hope of discovering coal.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many wells does the minister intend to bore with the $35,000 ?


William Templeman: We anticipate from inquiries we have made that a hole can be sunk 2,500 feet for between $5,000 and $8,000 but much depends on conditions and circumstances, the geological formation, transportation, &e.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: At what points in the island will the holes be bored ?


William Templeman: One near Summer-side, one near Gallus Point and at two other points to be located by the Geological Survey.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I hope this boring will not interfere with the tunnel.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the minister is going to spend $8,000 or $9,000 to drill a hole 2,500 feet deep it is an absurd rate. In our town we sank a well more than 4,000 feet at a less cost.


William Templeman: My hon. friend may have accurate knowledge of what it costs to bore a hole but I have seen correspondence with well known contractors, some of them from western Ontario, and I am inclined to think he is very far astray. If we can get a hole properly piped at this price we would have nothing to complain of. I do not know whether this includes transportation of plant which is a considerable item. When it is landed from the steamboat, it has to be moved from one point to another on the island, which will cost considerable money. I should imagine that the diameter of the large pipe is 8 or 10 inches. We do not know whether the oil-bearing formation will be found on the island or not; but experts in well boring, better experts than my hon. friend, have given us estimates of the probable cost of this work. We have made no contract, but I firmly believe that if we bore a well 2,500 feet deep in Prince Edward Island and pipe it. for anything like $5,000 or $8,000-I am only speaking approximately-we will do very well.
' Mr. TEMPLEMAN.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I do not want to take up time in disputing anything the hon. gentleman has said, although I have been twenty years in the business and know something about it. Is Mr. Low still Director of the Geological Survey ?


William Templeman: Yes.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does the minister expect to continue him at full salary ?


William Templeman: Mr. A. P. Low, who was appointed Director and Deputy Minister of the Geological Survey two or three years ago, took sick about one year ago, and unfortunately he is still a very sic-k man. He is off on leave of absence, wita pay. He is not entitled to superannuation, I am very sorry to say. I do not know how long his illness will continue, and I am therefore not in a position to say whether he will continue permanently in the service or not. Unquestionably if Mr. Low should recover sufficiently to return to work, he will be continued on full pay.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has Mr. Dowling returned to the Geological Survey ?


William Templeman: Yes. and he is in the west now on one of his expeditions.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I want to protest in the strongest language against the minister allowing the men of that department to go out and work for private companies, as he has done in the past. Mr. Dowling spent five years in gathering information in regard to the coal lands of the Northwest, and last summer a German development company engaged him for two months and he went out and located all the best coal lands in the western country for that company, and in the fall returned to the Geological Survey. Last spring ne stepped out again, and, as the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Talbot) said a few weeks ago, was employed by another company at the rate of $5,000 per annum, and after being away for a few weeks, returned to the Geological Survey again, and he is now in the west gathering information which he can practically sell to private companies. If this is the manner in which the Geological Survey is going to be conducted, it is not in the best interests of the people at large. I only wish I had time to go into this matter more fully, and to show the minister that the work of that department needs his close attention.


William Templeman: I do not suppose there is any use in occupying the time of the House in repeating this old story. My hon. friend made all these statements a few weeks ago, and they were fully explained then. Therefore I do not see any use in repeating the explanation.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does the minister intend to continue to allow these men to go out for private companies and come back to

1316G
the survey when they cannot get work elsewhere ?


William Templeman: The minister is quit.; ready to give the services of any expert ot' the Geological Survey, I will not say to assist private companies, but to assist in the development of the great mineral resources of this country. That is all we did. Mr. Dowling is an expert on coal, one of tile best men in the Geoloaieal Survey ; he has been some twenty years or more in the department. He is getting a small salary, less than $2,000 a year. He came to us and told us that he was going to leave the service unless we paid him more money. He wanted $2,500 or $3,000. He had an offer from a company of $5,000 per annum for a period of years. He was not anxious to leave the service. It seems that our geological friends think more of the opportunities they have for scientific work in connection with the survey than they do of work for a private company at a higher salary. Mr. Dowling had almost committed himself to resigning from the service and going to a private company. We desired that he should not leave the survey, though we were not able to increase his salary to the amount he wanted. Then he asked if he could get off for some months last year to go with the company. After considering the matter fully, we agreed to give him leave of absence without pay. I do not know wliat salary he received from the company, but probably at the rate of $5,000 per annum.


George William Fowler: Is it the intention of the minister to send an officer to the old country to study the coal shales ?
'Mr. TEMPLEMAN. Some months ago instructions were given to Dr. Ells to go to Glasgow to be present at the investigation of shales that were being shipped over there, with the view of acquiring all the knowledge he could on the subject. This is another illustration of assisting private enterprise to some extent, although it will be seen at once how nnch benefit it is to the country.	[DOT]


George William Fowler: What company is it- from New Brunswick?
Mr. TDM T'LEMAN. Yes.


George William Fowler: The New Brunswick Petroleum Company, of which the late Minister of Railways is the president?


William Templeman: I do not know. All I know about the company is that ,a gentleman named Mr. Lodge interviewed me in regard to it.


George William Fowler: Mr. Lodge, of fragrant memory?


William Templeman: I do not know him. He said his company was on the point of shipping fifty tons of shale to Glasgow to have the oil extracted; and all we are
doing is sending Dr. Ells over, paying his salary while he is absent, and probably his expenses. It will not cost $1,000.


Richard Blain: Has the government been appropriating money before for boring purposes ?


William Templeman: This is not new. The government about twelve years ago spent considerable ' money in boring for petroleum in the vicinity of Edmonton.


Samuel Hughes: Is there anything being done on the Athabasca or on the Saskatchewan at Edmonton?


William Templeman: Not by the department. Private enterprise has stepped in, and I know that in southern Alberta several companies are boring for- petroleum.


Samuel Hughes: The department sent a man a few years ago to plug a gas hole in Athabaska country, the same as they did the waterhole in the Yukon. Did they succeed in plugging it ? Quite a large expedition went down to plug up this gas hole away dowrn the Athabaska.


William Templeman: We did not send a man up to plug a gas hole. An inspection was made of a gas well.


Samuel Hughes: Why, I saw the gentleman in Manitoba on the way down there. He was sent by the Dominion government.


William Templeman: We sent a man to inspect the wells.


Richard Blain: It is not so long as ten years ago when public money was appropriated for the discovery of oil wells in the Northwest. What is the policy of the government in respect of this matter ? There have been large amounts expended in Ontario during the past year for the discovery of coal oil. If application is made to the department, will the department furnish assistance to parties boring for coal oil ?
Mr. TEMPLE-MAN. I am bound to say that I do not think such an application would be favourably entertained. Some ten or twelve years ago efforts were made to find petroleum in Alberta. At that time no private companies were boring for oil, and the government gave its assistance in that direction. Since then,, however, private enterprise has been expending large amounts in the endeavour to find petroleum in Alberta, and we are not spending any money in that direction any more than we would in western Ontario where petroleum is known to exist in very large quantities. We are justified hi making an expenditure for the purpose of boring for coal in Prince Edward Island inasmuch as the island has no known coal deposits, although our geologists express the opinion that coal may possibly be found at a considerable depth and possibly oil and gas. It would be very

important if we could ascertain the fact that coal exists there.
Contributions towards the expenses of sending Canadian representatives to the Olympic games in London, $15,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How many have been sent to the Olympic games ?


William Stevens Fielding: Canada is sending eighty-four representatives, including sixteen men for lacrosse.


John Waterhouse Daniel: This is for competitors alone ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes. This matter is the hands of a committee of prominent citizens, including Colonel Hanbury Williams, Mr. P. D. Ross, Rev. D. B. Macdonald, with Mr. Pereira as secretary.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I regard such a vote as the height of absurdity. I think our country is running too far in the line of games and sports and too little in the direction of useful labour, and to sanction all this by a vote in the federal parliament seems to me to be going too far.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Do the other governments do this ?


William Stevens Fielding: The provincial governments are giving some assistance.


George William Fowler: What provinces contribute ?


William Stevens Fielding: Ontario gives $2,000 and British Columbia $1,000. The contributions of the governments are supplemented by receipts in connection with the preliminary trials and, no doubt, by private subscription.
Grant to National Gynmastio Society to assist in sending representatives to games et Rome, $3,000.


George William Fowler: What is this?


William Stevens Fielding: The National Gymnastic has its headquarters in Montreal, and is composed, I understand, chiefly of our French Canadian friends. This is to assist in sending competitors to games on the line of the Olympic games to be held at Rome.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I do not think parliament has heard about this National Gymnastic Society or knows what it is for.


Samuel Hughes: Everybody has heard of the Montreal Amateur Athletic Association. But, thouflh I am an old sport myself, I have never heard of this society.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is this for games at Rome, in Italy, or in Rome, N.Y. ?


William Stevens Fielding: There is only one Rome and all roads lead to it.
To compensate the Canadian Bank of Commerce for services in the Yukon from April 1, 1907, to April 1, 1908,'$4,800.


William Templeman: 


William Stevens Fielding: The Bank of Commerce have acted as the government's agent in the Yukon, we allowing them a small commission. At first it was something like 2 per cent, but it has been whittled down until it is about one-quarter of one per cent.


George William Fowler: Better cut it out altogether.


William Stevens Fielding: No, with the present condition of business in the Yukon, if that were not allowed, it is a question whether the bank would agree to do the business for ns.
Further amount to provide for payment of the Civil Service Commissioners appointed May 8, 1907, including $600 to T. S. Howe, $12 to M. M. Hutchison and $70.75 to T. L. Mainguy, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act, $15,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This is to pay the further expenses of the three Civil Service Commissioners whose report is before the House. They have not sent an account, and we are estimating the amount that is likely to he necessary.


George Taylor: It was money well spent.


William Stevens Fielding: I am glad to hear the hon. gentleman approve, so I suppose the vote will be carried.


Samuel Hughes: I do not see then-names here.
Mi-. FIELDING. It Is well known that the commission is composed of Messrs. Courtney, Fysche and Bazin. This is to pay for their services, and also for the secretary, stenographers and others who assisted in the work of the investigation.


John Waterhouse Daniel: What do you allow the commissioners per day ?


William Stevens Fielding: We assume that we shall be called upon to pay them $30 a day each.


George William Fowler: Is it the intention to form a commission to look into some of the other departments which this commission had not time to investigate ? The Public Accounts Committee has been doing what it could, thwarted though it has been by the efforts of those who are known as .the ' Obstruction brigade.' Is it the intention to appoint a commission to investigate, for instance, the Railway Department and take up these land deals such as those with Mr. Lodge in Moncton and Pearson in Halifax. Will the allowance of 25 per cent commission to the St. John 'Sun' on printing done in that city be looked into ? Is it the intention to look into the Met-win case, or to investigate Mr. Wallberg and the $100,000 that he Is to receive for the building of a sewer for the new shops at Moncton-no tenders called for, using bis men there as he likes, keeping no time hook, with no supervision or inspection provided-is it the intention to inves-

tigate these things? I would suggest that considering the success we Hiave had in finding out things with regard to the Marine Department, we should apply the same machinery to the other departments.
Amount required to pay expenses of the investigation into the Department of Marine and Fisheries, $15,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that the Cassels investigation ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes. It is expected that this amount will be sufficient to pay all expenses. My hon. friend will remember that Judge Cassels is not charging anything for his services, but there will be fees of the lawyers and expenses of witnesses.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it understood that the lawyers are to get $100 a day ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Watson is to get $100 a day, but the amount is undetermined what will be paid Mr. Perron, so I am informed by the Minister of Justice.
Additional amount required for general immigration expenses, $50,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Would the minister tell us something about the regulations that have been put into force to prevent labouring men from passing into Canada from, the United States.


Frank Oliver: This vote is chiefly for that purpose. Since the change of labour conditions last fall, there has been a tendency for workingmen to come over to Canada from the United States, and we have found it necessary to take some means of putting into force the same exclusion against those people that the United States authorities have for a number of years past enforced against our people going into that country. This action is not taken to restrict ordinary immigration. These are exclusion officers, not properly immigration officers. At the minor points along the line this duty is entrusted to customs house officers, who watch the trains. But at larger points where travel is heavy, we appoint special agents.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Could the minister tell us what is the sum total that we have voted this year for immigration purposes?


Frank Oliver: The total for this year, iucluding the vote we are asking for now, is $1,010,000.
Department of Marine and Fisheries Towards providing for purchase or construction of a steamer for hydrographic survey of Gulf and ltiver St. Lawrence to replace 'La Cana-dienne,' $50,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What are you going to do with ' La Canadienne ?'


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: ' La Canadienne ' is a boat of uncertain age and requires to be 418
replaced. In cases where old boats are of no more use we sell them by auction ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where is the new boat to be built ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Iu Canada.


George William Fowler: What is the name of the flagship of the Canadian navy ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The 'Canada.'
Indians-New Brunswick-To provide a further amount for salaries, $400.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Is this to increase the salaries of the agents ?


Frank Oliver: No, this is to appoint an inspector and superintendent of schools.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Is that a new office ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


George William Fowler: That is a perfectly absurd thing. There are only six schools in New Brunswick and there are only a little over 100 pupils in these schools. If you i want to do anything along -that line increase the salaries of the agents and put the additional work on them. The agents are capable of examining the schools.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Do not the agents inspect the schools now ?


Frank Oliver: Yes, there are two agents and the agents do the inspecting of the schools, but the agents have been appointed not with a view to their suitability to act as inspectors and it is thought desirable that there should be an inspection by some one who is fitted for that work.


Samuel Hughes: Why not increase the teachers' salary by distributing this money amongst them ?


Frank Oliver: That is worthy of consideration, but it is generally considered that there should be a uniform standard and general supervision of education.


Oswald Smith Crocket: As far as the Fredericton agent is concerned, Mr. Farrell is a most excellent official, I doubt if you can get any better results from the Indian schools of Mr. Farrell's district by placing a superintendent of schools over him. I cannot see any necessity for such an appointment as this. If the Deiiartment of the Interior want to spend $400, let them increase the salaries of the Indian agents. Mr. Farrell has a salary, I think, of only $500 ; why not increase his salary rather than appoint an unnecessary superintendent over him?


Frank Oliver: $600 is Mr. Farrell's salary.


George William Fowler: Whom have you picked out for this job ? Some one has been picked out for it.


Frank Oliver: The gentleman whom I intended to appoint as inspector is the Rev. Father Ryan of St. Mary's.



Some lion. MEMBERS. Oh, oh.


George William Fowler: I knew yon would have some one picked out for It. The fact that It is Rev. Father anybody does not affect iny mind.


William Pugsley: You wanted to know who it was.


George William Fowler: Certainly. I knew that there was a man picked out for it. That is your way of doing business-first pick out your man and then create the office for him. This $400 should be divided among the various agents in New Brunswick, men who, as far as I know have done their duty and are good men. Let them inspect the schools.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Is Father Ryan to be appointed for the whole province ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many schools are there in the province ?


Frank Oliver: There are six Indian schools. They are all Roman Catholic Mission schools. There are three in one district and three in the other.


George William Fowler: They are not separate schools ; they are schools under the school board.


Frank Oliver: They are Mission schools.


George William Fowler: I know, but they are schools under the school board.


Frank Oliver: Yes, but still they are conducted under the auspices of the Roman Catholic church.


George William Fowler: Why do you call them Catholic schools?


Frank Oliver: They are Catholic schools.


George William Fowler: This is the province of New Brunswick you are talking about, there we have non-sectarian schools.


Samuel Hughes: Are these not Indian schools ?


George William Fowler: These are Indian schools but they are under the control of the board of education. They are non-sectarian.


Samuel Hughes: Does the New Brunswick government pay anything towards these schools ?


George William Fowler: They pay the teachers.


Frank Oliver: The Indian Department pay the teachers.


George William Fowler: If these schools are under the board of education the teachers receive a provincial allowance.


Frank Oliver: My information is that these schools have no connection with the provincial school system. They are Indian Department schools but they are conducted Mr. OLIVER.
by teachers connected with the Roman Catholic churctti.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How are they supported ?


Frank Oliver: The teachers are paid salaries by the Indian Department. All the New Brunswick Indians are Roman Catholics, and the teachers are of that faith; therefore we speak of them as Roman Catholic schools.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The province is not taxed in any way ?
Mr. OLIVER, The provincial government has no connection with the schools.


George William Fowler: What did the minister mean by saying that they are under the board of education of the province ?


Frank Oliver: If I said that I did not intend to.


Samuel Hughes: $10 a school is the ordinary fee in Ontario for inspection and the same rate here would be ample. This inspection is done by a clergyman who probably receives his salary from other sources and it strikes me that $400 to inspect the schools is a waste of money. I beg to move that the item be stricken out of the estimates.


George William Fowler: What do you pay to these teachers ?


Frank Oliver: On the average about $300 apiece.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Upon whose recommendation wras this new office created? Did the agents recommend it ?


Mr. BARR.: Or did the Indians ?


Frank Oliver: I could not say, who recommended it; I am responsible for presenting the item to the House upon the recommendation of the officers of the department. I am informed it is not on the recommendation of the agents but on the judgment of the deputy as to the requirements of the work.


Samuel Hughes: How long has this system been going on ?


Frank Oliver: There has not been such an inspection, we are proposing it now.


George William Fowler: The minister's answer is a strange answer. He says it is the deputy. Does the minister think that we can believe the deputy, on his own initiative, without a recommendation from any one, has made this radical change in New Brunswick? I fancy tlhat the same person who recommended Father Ryan for the position, recommended the position too. Could that possibly be the Minister of Public Works ?


William Pugsley: I have no hesitation in saying that this is an office in which the incumbent, if he is a man who is enthusias-

tic for the welfare of the Indians, will he able to do great public service. The Minister of the Interior has mentioned Father Ryan as the gentleman whom he has in mind for this position. I know Father Ryan and I am sure that his work


Oswald Smith Crocket: An excellent man.


William Pugsley: He is a man devoted to his work, he has taken great interest in the Indians in the parish in which he lives, he has erected a church there at large expense and has set aside a portion of it especially for the Indians. He is doing a very great work among them and if the Minister of the Interior appoints him, as he says, as inspector of schools, I am sure the appointment will be a good one. I am told that they have a similar position in British Columbia, and I am sure a man of education and an enthusiastic desire to advance the interest of the Indians will do useful work.


Samuel Hughes: Where are these situated ?


William Pugsley: Some up the St. John river, one near Father Ryan's church, two in York county and some on the northern shore.


Samuel Hughes: Will there be travelling expenses for this inspector ?


William Pugsley: They will be very small, the salary is small and I am sure the Indians will appreciate it and be benefited very greatly by his services.


George William Fowler: I am satisfied now that it was the Minister of Public Works who proposed this arrangement and not the deputy, as the minister would have us believe.
. Mr. CROCKET. Have the agents of the department been consulted in reference to the creation of this office by the minister ?


Frank Oliver: I could not answer that question, but I am under the impression they were. The department did not consult the agents on the subject but they approved of the proposition.


Oswald Smith Crocket: How does -the minister know the agents approve of the proposition if they were not consulted ? I do not wish to be understood as saying a word derogatory to Father Ryan. I esteem him as a most excellent citizen. So far as his qualifications to perform such a duty are concerned, there can be no question. My objection is that there is no necessity for this office at all. Mr. Farrell, who has acted as Indian agent in the northeastern district of New Brunswick, is esteemed as one of the best officers in New Brunswick, and I do not think any man could perform the service better than he has done. He has had the complete superintendence of the Indians of the northeastern district. I have yet to learn of one single complaint having been made with reference to the 418}
manner in which he performs his duty. He has looked after these schools, and I do not think there is any need at all for placing a school superintendent over him. That is my objection. The government should have given Mr. Farrell and increase rather than create an unnecessary and useless office.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I asked about the number of the school children among the Indians.


Frank Oliver: About 135 enrolled, and probably about twenty-five per cent more than that would cover the total number. With regard to what my hon. friend from York (Mr. Crocket) has said, I am informed that Mr. Farrell has asked to be relieved of a part of his duties owing to his increasing age.


Oswald Smith Crocket: Has he asked to be relieved of the duty of superintending the schools ?


Frank Oliver: Not the duty of superintending the schools, but part of the duty of his agency on account of his advancing years. At the same time, I want to echo everything that the hon. gentleman has said as to the satisfaction given by Mr. Farrell in the performance of his duties as superintendent.


George William Fowler: I think that this office is entirely unnecessary, and that this vote is an absolute waste of public money. I think the service could easily be performed in the future as it has been in the past. For that reason I will support the amendment.


William Pugsley: I may say that I have the best of reasons for knowing that Mr. Farrell entirely approves of this proposition. I can say that'with positive authority.
Amendment negatived.
Additional to persons employed permanently in the public service, and remuneration to any other persons for services rendered for and in connection with passing vessels through the canals of the government of Canada, from midnight on Saturday to midnight Sunday, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $6,500.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Do I understand that the canals are' open on Sunday now on account of the break in the Cornwall canal? I think they were open last Sunday.


George Perry Graham: I gave instructions to open the canal last Sunday and next Sunday, until the pressure is relieved.


Samuel Hughes: Did you get the Rev. Mr. Shearer's permission ?
Laehine canal-to pay Joseph Richard for loss of horse, $225.


George William Fowler: What about the horse ?


Mr. STANFIELD.: I think the minister might put an item in the estimates for the two horses that were killed at Truro a 1 short time ago.


George Perry Graham: That is in connection with the Intercolonial Railway. With regard to this horse item, it is very questionable to1 my mind whether we are liable ; I thought it well to put the item in the estimates. The horse was driven on the swing bridge, fell into the water and was drowned.


George William Fowler: Who valued the horse ?


George Perry Graham: We had an investigation made by our own official.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Did nothing but the horse go through? W'hat became of the harness and the rig?


George Perry Graham: The harness would not get drowned. It went into the canal and no doubt they fished it out.


Mr. MONK.: It was through a mistake of one of the employees on the bridge. There was a division of opinion as to whether the government was responsible or not. The hoi'se was killed and the harness and rig injured. The man lost $400 and the government agreed to give him $225.


Mr. LOGGIE.: About three years ago on the floor of parliament I asked the then Minister of Railways to put a sum in the estimates to pay some very pressing claims for cattle killed on the Canada Eastern Railway. I explained that claims of the same character had been up to that time paid by the proprietors of the railway, the Gibson Company, but when the government took the railway over they came under a different law. I impressed upon the minister the importance of treating the farmers 1 viug along the government railway as favourably as were those living along a corporation railway. The minister said he would consider the claim but there the matter ended. This would be an opportune time to put such an amount in the estimates, because the House has passed a law this year which brings matters of this kind under the same law as that which governs private railways.


George William Fowler: For the comfort of my hon. friend from Northumberland, I may say that just before the election comes on, the government will pay .all those old claims if he can prove that by getting them paid ho will have a chance of being elected.


Mr. LAKE.: Does the minister remember that I asked him for a report about the Canadian Northern Railway between its present line and Le Pas ?


George Perry Graham: I am sorry that I have not got it here, but I shall let my hon. friend have it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Before you leave railways and canals, I would like to ask where the contract between the government and the McIntyre and Robert Syndicate stands. If I understand the lease, these gentlemen were to pay a certain amount at a certain Mr. STANFIELD.
time. Have they paid anything? I am referring to the lease of the Beauharnois canal.


George Perry Graham: I will bring my hou. friend the information.


John Dowsley Reid: Several parties are inquiring about that and would like to know if any rental has been paid and whether this company pays the employees on the canal in accordance with their agreement.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I would like also to know if there are any water-powers granted to any company or whether any company has asked for water-power there.


George Taylor: Better let this item stand as the ex-Minister of Railways is not present and may have some questions to ask.
Item allowed to stand.
Annual drill-Further amount required including Quebec review, $200,000.


Hon.   S@: This is necessary to carry out the review at Quebec. We found that it was costing more than we expected.	.


George Taylor: Let that one stand and we will pass the other, reserving the usual privilege of discussing any of the others on this item.


John Dowsley Reid: I would like to ask the minister if he has seen a letter published in one of the Halifax papers from the firm of Davis and Fraser regarding the matter we were discussing the other evening . of the supplies furnished the troops. As I understand it this firm supplies the man who is now furnishing the bacon to the troops in Halifax. A contract was given for breakfast bacon.


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: The letter does not say so.


John Dowsley Reid: The man who is furnishing the supplies purchases rolled bacon and supplies that to the militia except a little breakfast bacon to the officers. Seeing that this letter is published under the signature of Davis and Fraser, it does seem to me that the statement I made the other evening is correct, and that an inferior bacon is being supplied than what the government tendered for.


Frederick William Borden: I read the letter pretty carefully. It does not say that the contractor is buying his bacon from them. It does say that the troops have not been supplied with breakfast bacon, but it offers no proof of this, and, in the end, admits that the troops are now receiving breakfast bacon but says that for a time they did not. But daily inspection was made by two or three officers, and no complaint has been made to me or the department, either at Halifax or here. The letter

is the letter of a disappointed contractor, and I take no stock in it.


John Dowsley Reid: I feel confident that I saw in the paper's in this case that these people were supplying the contractor.


Frederick William Borden: I do not think they are friendly enough for that.


John Dowsley Reid: If the contractor was
doing what is alleged, it was certainly unfair.


Frederick William Borden: I called the attention of the director of contracts in my department to ' Hansard ' containing the remarks of the hon. member (Mr. J. D. Reid).
Royal Military College-additional amount required $1,000.


George William Fowler: What is that for?


Frederick William Borden: To increase the pay of the professor of English and the professor of French, who have been receiving much smaller salaries than their brother professors.


George William Fowler: Are you increasing the salary of the commandant?


Frederick William Borden: No.
Monuments to Battlefields-amount required towards the erection of a monument to commemorate the battle of Stoney Creek, $5,000.


George William Fowler: What is that?


Frederick William Borden: This is near Hamilton, one of the most Important battlefields of the war of 1812. The people in the neighbourhood have raised considerable money and have purchased the property there, and I thought it was the right thing to encourage them by giving them this amount. They are to raise an equal sum.


George William Fowler: Very proper.
Gratuity to the widow of the late Surgeon Captain C. D. Murray, P.A.M.C., $1,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is this the usual practice in such cases?


Frederick William Borden: I think it is. This officer did not come under the pension law, and he contracted his illness by performing his duty as a surgeon.


George William Fowler: He was a permanent officer?


Frederick William Borden: Yes.
Gratuity for caretaker J. Donovan, Montreal, retired, $555.10.


George William Fowler: The minister will remember Captain Mackenzie, who distinguished himself in the Indian Mutiny, and who was for thirty or forty years connected with the militSa oif Canaua, particularly in New Brunswick. He has been a very useful man in connection with militia matters in
that province. Is it the intention of the government to do anything for him?
Mr. EMMEItSON. Is that the man who wrote a book?


George William Fowler: Yes ; a very good book.


Frederick William Borden: I agree with what the hon. member has said concerning Captain Mackenzie. He has done good service to the country and to the empire. But he is a pensioner of the British army in receipt of a very fair pension, and he is also the holder of an absolute sinecure in connection with the drill hall at Fredericton. I think he is doing very well.


Oswald Smith Crocket: I thought he had been removed from his position in connection with the Fredericton drill hall.


Frederick William Borden: I would not be absolutely certain, but I think we give him pay.


George William Fowler: If he has been removed the minister will give him a gratuity, I suppose?


Frederick William Borden: In that case, I think he might receive one.


George Taylor: There are two items of public wrorks left, and when these have passed that will finish the latter part of the supplementaries.
Public Works-Chargeable to collection of revenue-operating	and maintenance expenses-telegraph lines-$55,600.


George William Fowler: There is a matter I wanted to discuss in connection with the telegraph lines, but I suppose I shall be allowed to speak on any item?


William Pugsley: Any item :	no objection.


Samuel Hughes: Is the government erecting towers here and there throughout the country in connection wnth the Marconi telegraph system?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; we have been erecting some in British Columbia-


Samuel Hughes: I mean in Ontario.
Mr. OLIVER, The towers .referred to are probably those of the geodetic survey, the object of which is to establish fixed [>oints throughout the country from which to true up, so to speak, the existing surveys.


Samuel Hughes: Who is in charge?


Frank Oliver: Dr. King, of the astronomical surveys branch of the Department of the Interior.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Part of this vote is for the Yukon telegraph system. Is that the system we built some years ago?


William Pugsley: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is this for repairs?


William Pugsley: For renewals and repairs. I regret to say it is a very expensive system to keep up. The hon. gentleman can understand that, as it is far from civilization and passes over vast wastes of mountains.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the total amount voted for this service in the main estimates?


William Pugsley: The Yukon system, $22,000. The operating expenses of the Yukon system, $180,000, were provided for in the main estimates.


Richard Blain: Has there been any reduction in the rates recently ?


William Pugsley: Yes, after consideration I gave directions ito make quite a large reduction on the western telegraph line from 50 cents to 35 cents, and in many cases to 25 cents.


Samuel Hughes: Has there been much interruption to telegraph communication in the Yukon ?


William Pugsley: There are interruptions from time to time. Within a day or two my attention has been called to interruptions to the line which have been caused by the contractors cutting the right of way for the Grand Trunk Pacific. Trees have fallen down from the mountain side and interfered with the wires. I have given instructions that every reasonable care shall be taken to prevent that occurring. We shall insist upon the contractors repairing the line.


George William Fowler: You have a telegraph lnie, I understand, in the counties of Chicoutimi and Saguenay?


William Pugsley: Down the northern side of the St. Lawrence.


George William Fowler: What is the purpose of that ?


William Pugsley: The telegraph line was extended down the St. Lawrence for the purpose of primarily assisting shipping, that is, to communicate more quickly with vessels in distress. That was the primary object of the extension of the system. But my hon. friend can see that from time to time demands would spring up to have connection made with business centres along the x-oute. From year to year there has been an extension of the system, and now it serves a commercial purpose. That is the case both in the east and in the west. The telegraph system is being extended in various sections where it was not supposed that the lines would be commercially profitable, and therefore where companies would not undertake to establish a service.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: 


George William Fowler: My information with regard to this matter is, that the depai*tment has been in the habit of building bridges and roads, and performing work that should be done by the municipal authorities, or at most by the local government, and that this work has been done by the department for the Dominion. I will read what my instructions are with regard to this matter.
There is a county road between Chicoutimi and St. Alphonse on Ha Ha bay, about midway. There is a swamp some three miles long, which should be under the care of local authorities. But the people desiring to rid themselves of this burden made application to the federal member for the county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, to get this road cut across the swamp. Being a somewhat ingeidous personage, he thought it would be a good plan to tack this on to the telegraph line. He did so. and was able to pi'evail upon the department to accede to his wishes, and they have been building a mile each year. The .work is now about completed. In the Auditor General's Report of 1905-6, D-306, will be found certain items. The whole line is 12 miles long. I am told the amount spent on it is out of proportion. For the two years tile total amount spent is about $1,300, for the 12 miles. There are charges for sand that was to be put in the holes for the tele-gx-aph posits, and this sand, I understand, lias not been piled up around the posts, but a wide ditch has been dug, the poles are outside the ditch, and the sand is spread on the road. They have also been building bridges. I find that they have built a bridge at Anse St. Jean.


William Pugsley: What is the cost of the bridge.


George William Fowler: I will come to that later. I am speaking on the question of principle, about the Dominion government building works that should be built by the local authorities.


William Pugsley: It might be that the men repairing or constructing the telegraph line have erected a bridge for their purposes.


George William Fowler: They did not do anything of the kind. There is a population living on both sides of the river. Formerly there was one school on the north side and two on the south side.


Mr. A. K.: MACLEAN- Is the hon. gentleman reflecting the information gathered by the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames).


George William Fowler: The hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) is capable of taking care of himself.


Mr. CARVELL.: In the Public Accounts Committee the engineer gave all ithe evidence on this question, and there is no necessity for the hon. gentleman replying to it.


George William Fowler: There was no evidence given with regard to this particular bridge, or any other matter that I am bringing up now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: So much the more reason why you should not bring it up. The hon, member for St. Antoine spent two days examining witnesses over this question in the Public Accounts Committee, and my hon. friend cannot make this committee believe that there was anything down there that the hon. member tor St. Antoine did not find. If you will read the evidence that is given I will not have any fault to find.


George William Fowler: I can quite understand thut if my hon. friend from St. Antoine did bring a matter uo in connection with bridges how great a difficulty he would iiuJ to get in any evidence with regard to it when the obstruction brigade, of which the hon. gentleman was one of the chief movers, was there in full force. But the obstruction brigade cannot get their work in now and i propose to put it on ' Hansard.' I want mv hon. friend to understand that it takes a great deal heavier force than he is to prevent me doing anything that I desire to do here. *


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is not sworn to.
dation of these schools but for the purpose of the telegraph line. The hon. gentleman will find that in the evidence.


George William Fowler: There are twelve miles of teiegraph line and they bring this officer-up and compel him to swear that the bridge is necessary for the telegraph line.
Mr. CARV'ELL. Your own evidence is not sworn to as I have stated.


George William Fowler: If it were possible to state anything wrongly my hon. friend would state it wrongly.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend takes good pains not to state it at all.


George William Fowler: The highway ran along the south shore of the river one hundred feet from the bridge so that the telegraph does not touch the bridge at all.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is not evidence.


George William Fowler: I am giving the evidence as I have it here.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend cannot show any sworn evidence that has been given before the Public Accounts Committee. I was there and I know what the evidence was.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


William Pugsley: Is my hon. friend now giving some facts from his own knowledge or from any testimony given before the committee ?


George William Fowler: I am giving the facts as they are stated to me. Appoint a commission and we will bring evidence to prove them up to the hilt.	[DOT]


William Pugsley: By whom are they stated ?


George William Fowler: They are stated by me.


William Pugsley: By whom ?
Mr. FOWliER. I am not required to state by whom and I do not propose to do it. When I make a statement here I say what my authority is. I say that I am presenting this statement according to my instructions.


William Pugsley: I want to know if it is from your own knowledge ?


George William Fowler: No. I was telling the committee about the reason that was given for the building of this bridge across the river. There were two schools on the south side of the river and one on the north side. It was found necessary in the interest of the school district to consolidate these three schools and there was no bridge. So, at the suggestion of the local member the party came to the rescue again. The result is that a bridge was built.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And the engineer swore in his evidence before the committee that this bridge was built not for the accommo-


Mr FOWLER.: Mr Chairman, I have not said anything about what was stated before the Public Accounts Committee. I am giving a statement of what the facts are as I am instructed.
There has been $200 expended onthisbridge. It has nothing whatever to do with the telegraph service.	.	, .,	,	.,
Saguenay river repairing bridge, west side; $200 has been spent on this work. This is a municipal bridge and oughit not to be kept in order by government money.
Ferland via Grand bay. Expense, $201.75. \ small stream, the Bras Hamel, flows into the Ha Ha river. Up this stream there are three or four farmers out m the woods west of the Ha Ha river, the main line of telegraph between Ha Ha bay and Bale St Paul is east of the Ha Ha river. This branch line three miles long was built for no other pur-bridge and repairing the road, No messages ever come down this line except for hunters pose than to give an excuse for building a in the cariboo season in the fall. Expenditure wholly useless.	_____ .
Riviere aux Cedres. Expense, $187.63. This money spent in entirely remaking a bridge which is on the provincial road from Chicoutimi to Baie St. Paul. The road is a provincial government road and the provincial government spend money every year in keeping it in repair. The Dominion government also do the same.
St. Felix d'Otis. Expenditure, $199.96. There is a lake -known as Obis lake in the township of Otis. A small stream flows northwest from this, empties into the Saguenay river. Where the provincial road crosses this -river a bridge has been built. It should not have been built with Dominion govern-


Mr FOWLER.: Is it ? Well this is the member for Kings and Albert who is discussing it now. There are two comities- Laval and Terrebonne.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is a pity you have not some moving pictures to illustrate them.


Mr. FOW  LER@: You would make a nice moving picture to keep crows out of a harvest field. There is a river separating these two counties, and a scheme was gotten up to build a wharf at a place called St Francois ties Sales.


William Pugsley: How does the hon. gentleman know that ?


George William Fowler: Because these are the facts. Does he say there is any business done at either of these wharfs ? My hon. friend is silent upon that point.


Mr. PUGS LEY.: Tlie hon. gentleman is making a certain statement and he is making a charge that certain wharfs were built where there was no business. My hon. friend will see that it is due to himself that he should give the committee the source of his information so that one may ascertain whether the statements of the hon. gentleman are to be relied upon.


George Taylor: The minister built those wharfs and he should he able to say whether there is any business at all ?


William Pugsley: I presume they were built before I became minister.


George Taylor: Y'ou are responsible if your department did it.


George William Fowler: The minister does not seem to know anything about his department and whether these wharfs are built on navigable water or not. I have here a statement with reference to this :
It appears that during 1901-5 and 1905-6 there was expended about $30,000 in construction of two ' wharfs ' on opposite sides of the river between Terrebonne and lie Jesus. Aftjer the ' wharfs ' had been constructed the town council of Terrebonne built a bridge and connected them costing $28,000. This Terrebonne bridge connects lie Jesus with the mainland to the north crossing the River de Prairie. It is some considerable distance above the Canadian Pacific Railway bridge, which is not a draw bridge and effectually blocks the river except for small boats. There is no navigation on this river above Laelienais four miles below the bridge, yet the government has expended within recent years $56,600 for dredging between Charlemagne and Terrebonne. This dredging has no other purpose than to give countenance to the expenditure at Terrebonne and St. Francois des Sales No boats have been up the river as far as Terrebonne since 20 years and then only at high spring tide. The result of the dredging is merely a ditch of about 20 feet wide with earth thrown up on both sides which washes back in again.
rj^' ^'UGSLEY. What is the name of tin:


George William Fowler: I will have to look. Tlie minister laughs. It is very funny that 1 should not know the name of a river in Quebec ! I think that my knowledge of geography will compare with that of the Minister of Public Works or of the burdocks who laugh when he gets off his funny speech. A vv harf was built at Terrebonne and a wharf was built in the county of Laval at St. Francois des Sales. There was no necessity for a wharf at that place. There was no business to be done at it.


George William Fowler: Then we have the River du Moulin in the Lake St. John district. This comes under the head of protection work. As to this I have this statement :
Riviere du Moulin-Protection work.
In the Auditor General's Report for 1905-6, page Y-229 appears the item $4,090.73; again in Auditor General's Report for 1906-7 page V-165, under Lake St. John wharfs appears $676.22 and again at V-176 an item $1,469.39 altogether a total of $6,236 spent within two years. The River du Moulin is a fair sized stream entering the Saguenay from the south, quarter of a mile east of the town of Chicoutimi. The regular public highroad between

Chicoutimi and Bagotville crosses the stream by a bridge about 200 feet from its mouth. There was formerly a wooden bridge across the stream built by the municipal authorities. They desired to have this replaced by an iron bridge and decided to do so. The township of Chicoutimi paid a contractor to make a stone abutment on the east side and persuaded the resident engineer to recommend to the government the erection of a concrete pier of similiar size on the west side and an iron bridge built by the munici-al authorities connecting the two piers. The ridge and the stone pier by contract cost about $8,000; the concrete pier alone on the west built by the government cost $6,236. The municipality did not want to spend $8,000 or $10,000 for the bridge which could not be built for less than $15,000 including abutments. They applied to the provincial government and not a few hundred dollars from that source, than they undertook to interest the local federal member, Mr. Girard, and he advised them to draw a petition which they did stating that the river was filling up the Saguenay and increasing the dredging and Mr. Girard stated that on these representations he would endeavour to get money from the government and the engineer although knowing the facts made a report along these lines. The river is a rocky river, the bed covered with boulders and little sand ever comes down. More than that the Saguenay river is very deep from the entrance of the River du Moulin down for some distance and the dredging operations are upon bars four miles down stream. Consequently the excuses given for these improvements were absolutely fictitious. This is called a protection work but as a matter of fact there are wooden wharfs on both sides of the pier which amply protect the bank at that point and part of these banks is rocky.
Mr. PUGSLEYL If there was no navigation there what do they want wharfs for ?


George William Fowler: You can call them piers, wharfs, piles or what you like.


William Pugsley: Who had built the *wharfs before ?


George William Fowler: I do not know, that has absolutely nothing to do with the question.


William Pugsley: Is that one of the wharfs you have a photograph of ?


George William Fowler: government really meant two wharfs for Seven islands. It is situated on the east side of Seven Islands bay. This wharf will be of no practical utility, the water being very shoal for a long distance oft the shore, and no steamer oould approach it were it built for a reasonable sum of money, considering the heavy cost and -the small service which will be rendered to about twenty fishing boats which frequent the place and fish only a part of each summer, and not half of these boats will make use of the wharf, as the settlement is directly along the beach, only one range of buildings consisting of about eighty families, many of the men having long ago given up fishing to work at the various lumber establishments in -the vicinity.
Something like that elevator-shaped building.


William Pugsley: Does the hon. gentleman say that another wharf is under construction at Seven Islands ?


George William Fowler: No, one proposed. I am warning the minister against this demand for a wharf, not at Seven Islands but in the adjoining county. There is a telegraph line at Esquimaux point owned by the government. Several years ago since 1896, the parties there decided that a new bridge over a creek that runs through the parish would be advisable, but how to get tlie government to put up the money for it was the problem. The member soon solved it. He proposed that it should be represented as a necessity in connection with the government telegraph line. He apparently represented the matter thus in Ottawa, and the following summer a bridge was built over the creek, which at times has about four inches of water over it, at an expense of $400 and charged against the department telegraph lines. The cost of the work was reasonable, but there was no necessity for it.
The latest plan to get money, and one to which the memebr for Saguenay appears to be agreeable, is for building roads. Funds for this purpose are voted from time to time, and of course spent, but one fails to perceive any improvements in the roads. Gangs of men are sent out under a local foreman, but they generally go along the telegraph line which has been cleared years ago, cutting the second growth of short spruce or fir. I would go more into details of these matters only for the fact that It Is now nearly twelve o'clock. Here Is another expenditure to which I shall briefly refer.
A bridge is to be built over the Chaudi&re river connecting the counties of BPauce and Compton in the town of Lake Megantlc. This is not in the county of Chicoutimi but evidently the representative of Beauce and Compton took a leaf out of the book of the hon. member for Chicoutimi. No doubt the hon. gentleman's supporters will point to him as a wonderful man in getting lots of money from the government to be spent In Mr. FOWLER.
his constituency, but there will be other constituencies where perhaps this thing will not appeal to the people in the same way. But apart from that. I take it that the public money which belongs to the federal government should be spent for federal and not for provincial and municipal purposes and that all parts of Canada should be treated alike. I have pointed out before to the minister and earnestly besought him to do justice to his own province, and I am showing him here the great favouritism enjoyed by certain sections, such as the county of Chicoutimi, and contrasting that with the injustice done the province of New Brunswick.
This Lake Megantic bridge is to be built over the Chaudiere river, connecting the counties of Beauce and Compton in the town of Lake Megantie. This river being nonnavigable, the Dominion government is to build one half from the Beauce side calling it a wharf, giving the town of Megantic permission to build a wharf from the Compton side to connect. The provincial government in some manner will grant the town of Megantic $2,000 to help to defray their portion Of the cost. And I think we voted in 1905-6, $5,000, in 1906-7, $5,000, and a revote now of $5,000. There has been expended so far about $12,000 in connection with this work. So that not only in Chicoutimi but in other districts throughout -the country we find the same thing carried on and the federal money devoted to works that should be done by the proyincial and municipal authorities.


Mr. J. GIRARD (Chicoutimi).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, with your leave, I think I should give a few explanations as regards the manner in which the public funds have been expended in the constituency which I represent here. I regret I am not in a position to present these with as much ease in English as in French, and for the sake of clearness and brevity, I shall take advantage of the right I enjoy of expressing in my native tongue.
My hon. friend from Kings and Albert (Mr. Fowler) has assumed the task of arraigning the government in consequence of certain works which have been carried out, with the consent of the minister, such as bridges, repairs to telegraph lines, the latter having been built through my district in the public interest, and not at all for local purposes.
I have the honour to represent here a constituency of exceptional importance and extent. The greater part of the north shore of the St. Lawrence lies within my county. For the purpose of assisting navigation. the government built a telegraph line along that coast. That line is entirely for the benefit of the country as a whole, and not for that of the residents in my constituency. It so happens that along that telegraph line there are small groups of



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population, small villages, at certain places, inhabited by fishermen, or by both fishermen and farmers ; but in the majority of cases there are no municipalities in existence. In other parts, In order to enable people to vote, municipalities have been organized, the valuation of which is very small. That telegraph line was built without foresight or care; it was practically forced on the people against their will. The posts were set in spite of provincial and federal legislations, and each post which was put inside of the road ditch was an impediment to travel. That work was done at the time the friends of the hon. member for Kings and Albert were in power. I mean the work which was carried on between 1880 and 1890, previous to my occupying a seat in this House ; and to-day, the government and your humble servant are called upon in honour and conscience to mend past errors, inasmuch as the law and common sense will allow. And now, my hon. friend, not knowing who are the people moving him in the matter, comes out with this unfair criticism and compels the people concerned to put matters in their true light, through my voice, and to place the responsibility where it belongs.
I regret that my hon. friend does not understand what I am saying, but having the right to speak in French, I want to prove to the government and to the Minister of Public Works, that this whole investigation that has been going on in the Public Accounts Committee, through the efforts of my hon. friend from St. Antoine (Mr. Ames), has no real foundation, but rests merely on the machinations of a group of local politicians, so-called Liberals or Tories, who really belong to neither party.' A small ring of speculators in my county have supplied the hon. member for St. Antoine with the information on which he has based his charges, being unaware that such information has no foundation in fact, is untrue and unfair, and the member for St. Antoine, in turn, has passed on this information to the member for Kings and Albert, who has very cleverly brought it once more before the House. However, he did not really know what he was talking about, being content with to repeat here strings of stories of which he would never have spoken, had he taken the pains of verifying the statements; for then he would have known that he had no interest in repeating stories like these, which finally fall back on his friends.
About forty years ago, the Canadian government thought fit, and rightly so, to build a telegraph line from Bay St. Paul, in the county of Charlevoix, to the city of Chicoutimi, in the county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, with a view to providing the people of that district, which was then very much out of the way, the benefit of an up-to-date means of communication. For that
purpose, advantage was taken of the road which the local government had opened through the Laurentian hills, between St. Urbain and St. Alexis. That road, as soon as the Quebec and Lake St. John Railway had reached Chicoutimi, was given up by the local government, and since then, the Dominion government, in order to protect their rights as to the telegraph line just referred to, was, and is still, obliged to repair that road for purposes of maintenance.
Eighteen miles from the parish of St. Alexis is the township of Ferland, where a small group of settlers have located under favourable conditions. On account of the remoteness of their location, they have, through me, applied to the Minister of Public Works requesting him to be so kind as to allow them to connect, on the main line running from Bay St. Paul to Chicoutimi, what I might call a side line, about two miles long, which would enable them to communicate more easily with the rest of the world. That application was immediately granted with pleasure, the expenditure called for being very small and the service thus rendered to settlers in my district being of great value to them. Now, having found this out,-although I see here nothing that should not be highly commended, my hon. friend from St. Antoine, the other day, before the Public Accounts Committee, flushed with virtuous indignation and gave an exhibition of himself which hon. members then present will loug remember. The settlers concerned, to whose knowledge will be brought the facts which I am stating to-night, would gladly listen to my hon. friend's argument, if he were so kind as to come and point out to them wherein there is a scandal or a waste of money in connection with work.
The bridge on the Cedar river referred to by the hon. member is situated in that, part of the road I have just spoken about, and, consequently, forms part of the maintenance of the telegraph line. Further west, is the swamp to which the hon. member for Kings and Albert has referred, on the road between St. Alphonse and Chicoutimi, and where he has also discovered some sort of scandal. Let me tell him that if, while building that line,' his friends, instead of putting the telegraph posts inside the road ditch, had put them, as the law required, in the proper spot, outside the ditch, there would have been no necessity for his informers to maliciously use him as an instrument for misleading public opinion and unfairly criticising the government. After all, that is only a mere business proposition which was carefully considered by the officers of the department and the council of St. Alphonse, the latter, in consequence of the trouble and damages inflicted by the improper building of the
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line, claiming from the government the compensation to which they were entitled, or else the removal of the line. All parties concerned have accepted as equitable the settlement now proposed, which is one of the most practical and acceptable which the government could make under the circumstances.
Reference has been made by my lion, friend to a bridge at l'Anse St. Jean, which he managed to mix up with a school-house matter, and stated, in support of his contention, that the bridge had no connection whatever with the telegraph line. I am willing to pay the expenses of my hon. friend if he will visit the spot, so that he may be in a position to judge of the fairness of his informers; and he will find out that the bridge referred to is right in front of the telegraph office of the parish, and facing the house of the man employed to repair the line between l'Anse it Cheval and St. Alexis. He will also find out that with a paltry $200, the amount voted for that purpose, it would have been impossible, in the ordinary course, to build a bridge 200 feet long, suitable for general traffic. Then, if lie inquires, he will learn that the people there, hearing that the department needed such a bridge, as a facility in the work of repairing the line, joined hands with the department and built a bridge costing $700 or $800; and I do not think there is anything to find fault with in this connection.
Now, let us proceed to St. F61ix d'Otis; it is a building put up in the woods; there is no municipal organization there ; only a group of settlers along the mail road from St. Alexis to l'Anse St. Jean. The government had to build a shelter there for the protection of the postman in stormy weather. A bridge was crumbling to pieces; the same reasons which justified the Dominion government in building a shelter for the postman, and paying $40 a year to the keeper, for the safety of travellers, justified them in repairing the bridge referred to without laying itself open to a charge of graft or embezzlement.
My hon. friend has spoken of the telegraph line to Lake Clair, north of the Saguenay river. Here again we have a building similar to that in Ferland township to which reference has been made a moment ago, put up for the benefit of isolated settlers, cut off from the rest of the world, but who nevertheless are contributors to the public chest, just as my hon. friend who is complaining, and who have the same right as he has to obtain from the Dominion government, when common sense warrants it, the permanent works they are entitled to. My hon. friend has spoken of subscriptions in connection with the roads in the parish of Ste. Anne. If his informers who have loaded him up, had been willing to tell him the truth, he would have learned that in order to secure a short Mr. GIRARD.
cut through the parish, it was arranged with the council that the telegraph lines would be allowed to pass over private property, in consideration of the sum of $300 which w-as paid to them, an entirely clear and fair bargain to the advantage of the department.
Suddenly my hon. friend jumps from Ste. Anne to Esquimaux Point, a distance of about 600 miles, where he discovers another telegraph bridge. If he had looked over the map before delivering himself up as a tool to his informers, who have so utterly deceived him, before the House, he would have found that between Ste. Anne and Esquimaux Point there are 25 or 30 streams, over which, with a view to the maintenance of the telegraph lines, bridges have been built by the department: and that built at Esquimaux Point is only one among many others. Now, at the place I have just mentioned there is a village inhabited by poor fishermen of the north shore, who will be much pleased, no doubt, to learn through the newspapers that the Conservative party has taken upon itself, on the floor of the House to cast aspersions on the government, unabashed for all that, because there are houses in their village, to build a bridge in it, just as they would do if it were in the bush.
My hon. friend will realize that under the circumstances, he has been humbugged by an organization of people who are certainly not his well-wTishers, and still less the well-wishers of his party; and I trust that in future, before lending himself to such trickery, be will take the means of ascertaining the real worth of the people claiming his services as a critic here.
I am not quite through dealing with the insinuations made in connection with repairs to telegraph lines carried on in my constituency. Once more, I think it my duty to state that the county of Saguenay, which is comprised within the limits of my electoral district, occupies a peculiar geographical situation, and comprises a widely scattered population, settled here and there, according to the natural advantages offered by the various localities. And that population lias been utterly neglected and practically forgotten by the Quebec government for all time, and by the Dominion government until the last seven or eight years. However those people, who number some nine or ten thousand souls, have contributed to the Dominion chest a large amount of revenue since confederation ; and I am sorry, indeed, to find that one of my good friends in this House thinks that this government is not doing right in looking after the welfare of these people, in endeavouring to improve their conditions, and granting them a modicum of the improvements which they have a right to claim. However, I do not wish to condemn too severely the hon. member, being satisfied that he acted in good

faith, and never perceived that, in making these charges which he has just made, he was merely being used as a tool in the hands of people down there who are greatly amused at the trick they succeeded in working on him.
But before proceeding further, I think it is my duty to state to the House that these criticisms are not endorsed by public opinion in our county and that all this is merely tlie result of a plot on the part of a few schemers who, unwilling to assume the responsibility for their deeds, have not had the courage to allow the use of their names to the hon. members for St. Antoine and Kings and Albert. On the contrary, they have sought to cast on the Conservative party of my district all responsibility for their action, by voicing their grievances through two members of the opposition in this House. But I am happy to state that I am in a position to defeat the effort which is being made to mix up certain people in this business. A few days ago, I received a letter from one of the leaders of the Conservative party in the county of Chicoutimi, stating that the Conservative party in the district denied all connection with the plot which was going on, apparently under its name, and rejoiced at finding that no French Canadian member of the opposition had been willing to undertake what he frankly-called the dirty business which others have been made to do. He requests me to assure the government that the Conservative party as a whole, with the exception of a few of its members whom it disowns, is generous enough and self-respecting enough not to wage war on the government, be it Liberal or Conservative, on the ground of favours which it has itself applied for on several occasions. I trust the government will realize the importance of such a statement.
-My hon. friend spoke of a bridge pier on the River du Moulin ; he showed a photograph which he afterwards handed to the minister and read a series of written statements which wei-e, of course, supplied to him by the ring of which I have just spoken ; statements which are false throughout. Let me state to my hon. friend that the pier referred to was built by the engineers of the Department of Public Works as a protection pier, because the wooden sheathing which he mentioned was beginning to give way, that wherever this happens, the bank is eaten up as a result of frosts, and that, one of these day-s, this wooden sheathing will have to be replaced by masonry extending from the said pier. Otherwise, the dredging of the Saguenay river, which has been started and is practically going on, would be of no avail, the channel being filled up by the material kept back heretofore by the woodwork referred to. My hon. friend claimed that, in the vicinity of that pier, the bottom of the River du Moulin is rock. That is true as regards the east side : but, when building that pier, it was necessary to put in piles 30 feet in length ; it will thus be seen that the rock bottom, if such exists, is very deep, and that his facts are far from being correct. That is the exact truth as regards the department. When that pier was built, the parish of Chicoutimi forwarded a petition to me signed by all the inhabitants, endorsed by the council, requesting that the government allow them to place thereon the western end of a bridge which they were building. The minister sent no reply, and the council took upon themselves to use the pier as they intended. But even admitting that the object in view was really the building of a pier for the bridge, I do not think I would have reason, or the government have reason, to be ashamed of it. And here are my reasons for say-ing so: in 1903 I had the honour to represent the county of Lake St. John in the Quebec legislature. Colonization in that district was then almost at a standstill ; it was necessary to undertake large works in order to restore confidence. Two bridges valued at $50,000 were to be built without delay-. The local government resolved to undergo that expenditure, but sought the co-operation of the Dominion government for that object I was sent to Ottawa as a delegate to discuss the matter with the Hon. Mr. Ouimet, Minister of Public Works. I submitted the plan to him; ho called in his deputy minister, Mr. Gobeil, and his chief engineer, Mr. Coste, to whom he submitted the ques-ton. After considering the matter, the minister decided with pleasure to pay $2,000 for /the construction, as wharfs, of two piers on each side of the Grande Decharge of Lake St. John. The Quebec department of colonization was advised of that decision. The bridge was built and in September. 1894, the Auditor General allowed the payment of these $2,000, mention of which is made in the Public Accounts, and in the following letter :
Quebec, March 18, 1908.
Joseph Girard, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons, Ottawa.
Sir,-In answer to your letter of the 15th instant, to the Hon. Mr. Devlin, I beg to inform you that the bridge at the Grande Decharge was built during the years 1893 and 1891.
We received as a contribution from the Dominion government the sum of $2,000.
Yours truly,

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Deputy Minister.
The Hon. Mr. Ouimet, in giving these instructions, stated he was happy that the Dominion law and especially the Hon. Mr. Foster, then the faithful guardian of the treasury had given him a free hand in the matter, towards promoting the settlement of the Lake St. John country-, the advantages of which were known to him. and wherein settlers were seeking t >
build homes for
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themselves under such favourable circumstances. If in 1904 the then Minister of Public Works and the then Minister of Finance, with the assent of the Auditor General, approved of the idea of contributing to the building of bridges in my constituency, with a view of promoting colonization, I cannot preceive why, in 1908, the friends of the hon. gentleman should take exception to the same policy when carried out by a Liberal government. There should not be two weights and two measures, and and what was perfectly right in 1894 cannot be all wrong in 1908. I have followed in the footsteps of these hon. gentlemen in my efforts to accomplish some good; I am not sorry for it, but they should not blame me to-day for carrying out their teachings.
A moment ago my hon. friend handed over to the Minister of Public Works, with a sarcastic smile, a photograph of the bridge which he finds fault with. I may be permitted in answer to show a photograph of part of the bridge of which I have just spoken, wherein will be seen the piers towards the building of which the Hon. Mr. Ouirnet *was so happy to contribute $2,000. If my hon. friend had known the history of the case he would have avoided dealing with the matter; for in 1894, at the time of the interview above stated, the Hon. Mr. Ouirnet was very glad to give' instructions to his engineer, Mr. Blais, to build, as approaches to a wharf to be built later on, three miles of road right through the woods, towards promoting the settlement of Talon township, in the Lake St. John district. These instructions were put down in black and white, and are on record in the department. Now, Mr. Speaker, is there much more harm in the present government building approaches to a wharf with a view to facilitating trade impeded by obstacles in the shape of bad roads, than in the government which was in power in 1894 ordering the building of a colonization road three miles in length as an approach to a wharf' which was not yet in existence?
I regret that I should thus be obliged, in order to answer my hon. friend's charges, to recall the political history of the last few years ; tout it is impossible for me to do otherwise. The Hon. Mr. Foster, speaking in this House on the 12th of March last, stated that the Dominion legislation did not exactly define the exact limit between local works and Dominion works, and that, in consequence, abuses arose from time to time; that it was necessary that such a state of things should be put an end to, and the limit exactly defined. He seemed to blame this government for not doing so. I have no objection to this government taking such action, should they think fit to do so ; but I wonder why this government should be under greater obligation than the old government to modify legislation enacted with sound sense by the Mr. GIRARD.
fathers of confederation ; and I cannot admit that the hon. gentleman has the right to blame the present government for doing what he himself was only too glad to do when he had the keys of the chest, and he was called upon to promote the development of some outlying part of the country, even though it be Chicoutimi and Saguenay.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I think my hon. friend realizes that those who requested him to make those charges before the House are not his best friends. I believe he himself has not seen them and that he is purely and simply entrusted with the task of carrying on the work started by the member for St. Antoine. Possibly he thought he was dealing with friends, though he did not know their names. I may be allowed to tell him who are the people working this scheme :	Mr. Allain, Mr. Savard, Mr. Dubuc, Mr. Joseph Guay, of Chicoutimi,, allies of Mr. Ben. Scott, of Roberval, who have as their agent Sir. Simon Lapointe, the latter having come to Ottawa to load up hon. members of the opposition. Mr. Savard and Mr. Allain claim to be Liberals, but in their committee they receive with pleasure those of whom I have just spoken, and who call themselves Conservatives, 'together have they prepared the plot; together have they delegated Mr. Lapointe to Ottawa; but on the very day that Mr. Lapointe left Chicoutimi, Mr. Allain and Mr. Savard wrote to a prominent man in Ottawa a letter which I have seen, advising him that Mr. Lapointe was proceeding to Ottawa to supply the hon. members on the other side with ammunition against the government, but that it was in spite of them. So, I am in a position to-day to state to the hon. gentleman that, instead of helping the cause of his Conservative friends in the county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, he is merely working for the benefit of certain people who claim to be Liberals, but who employ Mr. Lapointe, a so-called Conservative, to make war on the government, without the latter finding them out. Such are the lofty feelings of these hypocrites which I desire to make known to the House and to submit to the appreciation of the ministers who hear me. At the bottom of all this, there is jealousy, there is a desire to promote private ends, which the public as a whole does not suspect. but which people at home keenly appreciate.
My hon. friend has spoken of the wharf at Clark City in the bay of Sept-Iles and has described in a more or less gruesome light. I may say that this wharf has been built by the government with a view to securing control over the landing at that point, instead of leaving it in the bands of private concerns which might have taken advantage of it, to the detriment of others. The company which is doing business at

Clark City has spent heretofore about $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 of entirely 'American capital, which has been applied in developing one of the finest industries in the country, and the products of which will, within a few weeks, be put on the market. This company has contributed towards the building of the said wharf an amount as large, if not larger, than that contributed by the country itself ; but they have agreed to let the government have full control of the wharf, and business men consider such a departure to be in the public interest. Presently at Clark City there will be a large town, towards the building up of which the Dominion will have contributed a relatively small amount ; and I understand that it has been customary all over the country that the government should co-operate in the building up of industries so beneficial to the public weal.
On the 12th Of March last, my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) launched out in great style against the government at the instigation of those same people I have just named, because the government had built on the River Saguenay and close to Chicoutimi booms similar to those in the St. Maurice. He complained at the same time that the pulp company had not paid any dues and refused to pay them, under pretense that these booms were so badly constructed that the pulp company, after applying for them, refused to take advantage of them. That question has come before the Public Accounts Committee. An investigation was held. It was shown and proven by all the officers of the department who have to do with the question, from the chief engineer down, that these booms have been well and properly constructed, according to the ordinary plans in use by the department ; but that the Pulp Company of Chicoutimi who had been insisting on the government putting in these booms, had on the day following that on which the government decided to do so, insisted that the government should buy their own booms, consisting in a chain and a single log of small diameter, old and poorly put In, for the price of $30,000. Experts were sent to establish the real value of these fixtures, and it was estimated at $5,000, or $6,000 at most ; and the whole endeavour of the company since has been to run down the government booms, unbeedful of the reputation of the officials who had to do with this work, in the hope that the government would be constrained to buy up their old plant at $30,000. I shall now read a letter which throws some light on the subject :
Chicoutimi, February 9, 1906. Joseph Girard. Esq., M.P.,
St. Gedeon.
My dear Girard,-I have been requested by the board of directors of the Chicoutimi Pulp Company .to come to some understanding with
you regarding certain matters which have already been discussed pretty often, though without much success, owing to circumstances known to us. I am authorized to state to you that my fellow directors, iat this meeting, which was held during the absence of Mr. Dubuc in Europe, acknowledge that you are not in any way to blame in this connection.
Our company is just -now under stringent circumstances, and that should mot surprise you, being aware that we have always been in need of capital, and that our establishment has cost nearly $2,000,000. The directors of the company have shown public spirit in establishing this company in Chicoutimi, and have invested in it their whole capital, their whole credit, all their belonging, and even more.
After subscribing $600,000, wholly paid-up, ng $400,000 .worth of debentures, disposing of $400,000 of preferential stock, we have still to tackle a floating debt of more than $200,000, which will have to he paid up without fault and without delay; and it is in order to request you to assist us as best you can that I ha.ve .been asked to write to you, and to meet you if you .so desire.
You are a man of resources, you have shown it on many occasions ; you are aware of the importance of our undertaking, you know what its downfall .would mean for Chicoutimi. You know that should we .go under, our .plant would fall iuto the hands of Americans, who have their eye on it, and you are patriotic enough to he -willing to do what is in your power to prevent that, hon. .sir.
If you wish me to meet you, w© can diisouss what means are at your disposal towards assisting us. and you may count on the gratitude of the directors of .the company. I stated openly in public not very long ago, what are my feelings toward yon. You .may rest .assured that -these sentiments are wholly shared in hy my fellow directors who have requested me to meet you.
Believe me, etc.,

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Vice-president of the Pulp Co.
The pulp company of Chicoutimi being in very bad straits, having failed to secure from tlie city of Chicoutimi a subscription of $75,000, was striving to restore matters somewhat by extorting from the Dominion an amount of $25,000, which probably would have been very welcome. I deemed it my duty to submit that request of the company to the officials and to the ministers. After realizing that the proposal which was being made could not be considered in a fair light, I let the department deal with the matter as they thought advisable, and I am not sorrj for doing so. However, the result has been this plot before tlie House and before the Public Accounts Committee against the government and against myself, owing to the fact that none of us were willing to endorse such gross boodling as had been proposed. Had I been willing to be the tool of these gentlemen, and stooped to that dirty business, you may be sure that neither the government, myself, nor the House, would have
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ever heard of those strictures concerning a few hundred dollars spent in the public interest and for the interest of poor people who are worthy of the government's consideration, and particularly because they are honest and loyal.
With the co-operation of these same gentlemen, and their full approval, the government decided to complete the dredging of the Saguenay begun by the Hon. Mr. Ouirnet in 1891, and interrupted later. Matters were going on peacefully, the work had been started and was proceeding in good order, when on a sudden Lord Stratlicona, Canadian High Commissioner in London, as may be ascertained by a return to an order of the House, wrote to the Minister of Marine here, on behalf of a certain Mr. Becker, whom nobody knows, that the dredging of the Saguenay was an act of madness, that the undertaking should be given up at once, and that the seaport for the district of Chicoutimi should be located at a spot along the River Saguenay which is called ' Les Batures.' I was consulted in this connection. Knowing what was the consensus of opinion in my district, I opposed this demand,' although Inot knowing whence it came, and the government proceeded with the work. Since I have had constantly to battle against a certain party, whom I always found in the way without perceiving what was the reason of it all. But I have here a letter which will make known to you the promoter of this abusrd project, and which shows why the gentleman named is endeavouring to satisfy his hatred and a desire for vengeance against me. I shall now read two letters which wilt explan my meaning :
Quebec, April 3, 1908.
Joseph Girard, Esq., M.P.
Ottawa.
My dear Giraird,-I understand that an application iha« been made by Mr. J. A. Dttbuc, for the construction of a wharf at the Bat-tures and for the extension of the railway up to deep waiter at that place. That application will be made on behalf of the new harbour company.
Heretofore the Chicoutimi Pulp Company has requested the dredging of the shoals (bat-tures) as far up as Chicoutimi. You and the government have acceded to that request; large amounts have been spent, and there is no reason of recent occurrence why that undertaking should not be proceeded with. I have discussed the situation with Mr. G. S. Scott, Mr. Lemoiine and others, and their views coincide with mine, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. Dubuc claims that the dredging is almost at a standstill. I know, for my part, that the work is well under way, and that even greater progress would have been made if you had been given a free hand last summer. Half of the dredging is being carried on to a depth of 18 feet. I know that if the work is proceeded with this year and next, the dredging at the government wharf will reach a depth of 18 feet. That is a matter of great Mr. GIRARD.
importance for Chicoutimi, for us and the pulp company.	[DOT]	_	...Mr. Dubuc is indignant against Chicoutimi; he has a grudge against the city council and so states to all comers. My views differ from his in this respect.	.	.
I shall to-morrow return to Chicoutimi; I shall endeavour to cross 1 Millie's plans, call a meeting of the city council and of the citizens, and we shall send a delegation to explain matters to the government as soon as you so desire.
If the building of the railway is to be proceeded with, a proposition to which I do not object, it should have its terminus a.t St. Alphonse, instead of the Battmres, but we would like the dredging to go on just the same.
You can rely on me, on my paper, on my friends, on the whole population, I think, for support in this connection.
Do not give up, this is a critical hour, and we need your help.
Yours truly,

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Vice-president of the Pulp Co.
April 10, 1906.
My Dear Girard,-I received your letter on Sunday, just as I was leaving for Quebec, and I met Tache yesterday morning here at the Frontenac. He has given me good news.
Your stand will have the general approval of the people at Chicoutimi, barring the Dubuc faction, which is not very numerous, as you know.
You shall have our petitions by Easter. Tache tells me that we may rely on the dredging being done. I was informed here yesterday that the people in Quebec are expecting to have the dredge ' l'Internationale ' for the Louise basin here, as soon as navigation opens. Have your eye on these people; nobody can tell when they will be through.
Our fanners will be glad to learn that you have obtained $1,000 for them. You are already aware, no doubt, that we have voted the by-law unanimously, thanks to your telegram, which I have explained as -best I could.
Yours truly,

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Vioe-ipresident of the Pulp Co.
I am glad to be in a position to lay these letters before the House, in order to enable the government and my fellow members to judge of the plots against which I have to contend just now, and of the esteem in which your humble servant was held bv the vice-president of the Chicoutimi pulp company. I have not done anything wrong since, neither have any of my friends, notwithstanding which we are no longer held in the same estimation. There is no longer any hope of obtaining the $30,000.
A word of explanation concerning this whole matter. The county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, for its development, is dependent on various industries. Some are in the hands of millionaires; others in those of would-be millionaires. Those of the first class, such as that located at Jonquifire, grow and prosper for the benefit of the people as a whole, and of the shareholders,

without noise or trouble. Peace prevails in the neighbourhood, and it is a Protestant, Wm. Price, who is the foremost director of the undertaking, in the midst of an entirely Catholic and French Canadian population; and the same thing may be said of other industries in the county of Saguenay.
At Chicoutimi, the only industry in existence is in the hands of French Canadians, in the midst of a French Canadian population ; and there is in that locality any amount of quarrelling, litigation, disputes, plots, etc., and even a ring whose influence is felt right here, consisting of people who, though poor, are intent on getting rich quick and have made up their minds to crush any who refuse to follow their dictates. It matters not what is the status or the influence of the person whom they resolved to undo. As an instance, take the case of Judge Gagng, appointed for the district, an absolutely honest and honourable man, whom the Chicoutimi organizer, Mr. Dubuc, has denounced in the papers, and in a circular letter addressed to the members of this House, shamelessly and unscrupulously. Now here is the manner in which the hon. Judge Langelier has lately characterized such conduct ;
Lastly, a Mr. Dubuc has published a letter in which he threatened in plain terms Judge Gagne with impeachment, should he decide adversely ito his contention in a pending lawsuit. Whoever ventured to /make such a threat to a judge in England would probably have been sent /to jail for a term of six months.
In this connection, I wish to enter my emphatic protest against the malicious and slanderous attacks which the ring branded by me are unceasingly directing against the said judge, who has attained to his high position owing to his honesty and on that account cannot be made a tool of.
The clergy of Chicoutimi have not been spared. The newspapers of the province of Quebec, unfortunately, have been imprudent enough to spread abroad reports incorrect for the greater part as to the troubles experienced by the bishop, who perceiving that his good faith was being taken advantage of, hastened to grant to the person whom the ring was anxious to ruin in his esteem a certificate of good citizenship and Christian conduct. Two weeks later, one of the ring stated in a well-known office in the city of Quebec, that the bishop of Chicoutimi must have lost his head to act in such a way, and that he was bound to go. But His Grace knows that he still enjoys the full confidence and respect of the whole Catholic population.
Before the Public Accounts Committee, the inquiry was directed mainly against the engineers of the Department of Public Works, whom the ring had failed to bend to their own objects. The investigation clearly showed that the officials, chief engineers, resident engineers and other em-419

[Stage Direction]
ployees assigned to the district, are absolutely honest and above reproach and entirely beyond any slanders which the ring might be capable of devising, in spite of their cleverness, for their great talent consists in resorting to calumny unceasingly. There were left only the government and your humble servant who had1 not been the objects of attacks on the part of that gang of bold speculators. Now it is our turn; word has been given and we must suffer ; and so it is that in every station of life we find! victims of that gang ; the clergy, the judicature, public officials, the government and your humble servant. However, none of us are dead as yet; we all have in hand an antidote in sufficient quantity against the poison distilled by the gang; we have honesty ; we are impervious to their venom. In the minds of these organizers, this whole business may be considered as a personal attack on my honesty and that of my friends. Cowardice has prevented them from making their charges openly; but the whole trend of that affair was an insinuation to that effect.
The investigation before the Public Accounts Committee has clearly shown the correctness of all accounts. However, since it has been deemed advisable to entrust Mr. Lapointe with the task of investigating our honesty, I shall supply him for the next six months with the following information to be laid before the public : How can Dr. Savard, who was paymaster at Chicoutimi between 1886 and 1900, explain the various payments made to a certain Archibald McLean, an invalid, for square timber sold to the government during the years 1898, 1899 and 1900 for the wharf at St. Alphonse, to the amount of several hundred dollars? How is it that J. Tremblay, in 1900, an unknown, has sold wood to the amount of $690 for the wharf at St. Alexis? How is it that a man by the name of P. A. Potvin, in 1899, sold wood to the amount of $232.75 for the Pipe wharf? Who is L. P. Bilodeau, w7ho managed to sell to the government ordinary board nails for $5 to $9 a keg, and machine oil at $1 a gallon, when everywhere else " throughout the country nails were selling at $3 to $3.50, and oil at 30 cents? My hearers know what that means. Then, how is it that in 1899, B. A. Scott received from the government $1,000 for a buoy service on Lake St. John, -which at present costs only $300? How comes it that the same B. A. Scott was obliged to return a cheque to the amount of $202 for square timber which he had not sold? I call upon the informer of my hon. friends from St. Antoine and from King's and Albert to look up the public accounts from 1896 to 1900 with especial care, and to report at the next session. That would be of great interest.

Mr. LEONARD.: (Translation.) In -what year did these facts occur?
Mr. GIRARD, translation.) Between 1896 and 1900.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: (Translation.) So it occurred under this government?


Joseph Girard: (Translation.) Yes; but they are the same people to whom I have referred, and who in an indirect way have brought about my election in 1900, the electors having returned me by way of protests against these abuses. I am happy to state, and I wish it to he clearly understood, that the leader of this government having been advised of these facts previous to the elections, allowed me to be returned practically without any opposition, his intention being to have it understood that his good faith had been imposed upon by people who were utterly unworthy of his confidence.
This being understood, I wish to emphasize once more what I said a moment ago. viz., that this whole plot before the Public Accounts Committee and in this House is far from being advantageous, from a political point of view, to the party who is waging war on the government, the latter having taken advantage of all honest means which the law put at its disposal to promote the interests of all parts of (th'e constituency which I represent, and particularly those of the poorer localities. The government has acted in good faith and with the greatest honesty possible. Your humble servant, supported in the various parishes by the most prominent citizens friendly to the government, considered himself in honour and conscience bound to repay under the form of loyalty and respect the confidence and generosity which the Prime Minister reposed in the district and in its representative. Those hypocrites who expected they might remain hidden while the opposition would be waging war on the government on their account, because the said government practically had been working in the interests of the county, will find It difficult, in spite of their expentness, to satisfy the people that the government have done too much on their behalf. Accordingly, I can assure the House that the government candidate at the next election, in the county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, will have no difficulty in securing his election, the people knowing what they owe to the present Prime Minister; and I may assure the opposition that, as a sequel to the war which they have been waging against the interests of the county, it will be well for them not to put a candidate in the field, unless they are willing to forego his deposit. .


George Taylor: I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman is not speaking to the item under discussion.


Joseph Girard: 


William Pugsley: I hope the hon. gentleman will not press the point of order, because the hon. member for King's and Albert (Mr. Fowler) went out of his way to make an attack on the hon. member for Chicoutimi (Mr. Girard) in regard to the expenditure of public money in his county. I think the hon. member for Chicoutimi should have an opportunity to reply.


George William Fowler: I did not go out of my way to make an attack on anybody. I merely read statements and gave facts.


William Pugsley: You must take the responsibility of your statements.


George Taylor: An arrangement has been made between the two sides of the House to bring this session to a close on Saturday. If my hon. friend does not want to carry out that arrangement, this side is willing to stay here until next week or next month.


William Pugsley: Will the hon. gentleman say that after the member for Kings and Albert, at this late stage of the session and the night, made the attack he did with regard to expenditures in Chicoutimi, the hon. member for that county should not be allowed to reply ?


George William Fowler: Certainly, let him reply as long as he likes.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman from that county has already occupied more time in the reply than my hon. friend from Kings and Albert did in his statement. I was a party to the arrangement made last night, that in the time allotted to this subject we were to have practically the whole time. That arrangement is now broken.


Joseph Girard: I did not like to break any arrangement that has been made, but the hon. member for Kings and Albert has been dealing with so many things in my own riding that I think I should be allowed to answer him.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Go on.


Joseph Girard: I regret Mr. Speaker, I have spoken at such length. My hon. friend from Kings and Albert has compelled me to do so. I thought I had the right to answer every one of his charges. I wish to repeat what I said a moment ago, that the Conservative party of the district have not approached the opposition in the person of Simon Lapointe, who came to Ottawa to meet I know not whom. He may represent and belong to a certain class of Conservative parasites who associate with a small number of Liberal people of the same kind, whose existence in the county, unfortunately, we cannot avoid admitting. But I repeat it, the Conservative party in the county has not used this gentleman as its spokesman; and the government may rest assured of one thing, which I am anxi-

ous to impress on the mind of my hearers, and it is this: In Imy district we are new, we are poor, we are needy, but the majority of us are not looking for honours, because we have been brought up in an environment where honour is not a matter of jest; and no one would dare in our midst to try and knife whomever had extended a helping hand to him, whomever had been of service to him, be it the government or be it an individual, should he be a Liberal or should he be a Conservative. We are proud of our education, we glory in it fit may not give as brilliant results, but it is nobler, grander, better.
In our midst there is no Chateau-Sague-nay paid ten cents on the dollar, nor people paying their debts with worthless cheques; we make it a point to brand the few amongst us who act otherwise.
1 am not ashamed of what I have done for my county. I glory at the thought, and my mindi is quite made up to persevere. Always and everywhere have I acted toward the government and my constituents loyally and honorably. The government have not to regret what they have done. Far from it, the people concerned will seize the first opportunity of showing their gratitude. In the future the government should do as iu the past, and those who are trying to hurt the government in these parts of the country where those questions are not well understood, will not get much benefit from it. if they only have courage enough to say publicly what was said by the honorable member for Grenville (Mr. J. D. Reid). He said before the Committee of Public Accounts, after becoming acquainted with the charges made: ' That is too small for me.' Such is the verdict of an impartial member of this House, who had followed the trial, and it absolutely exonerates the government, its officers and myself, and we have reason to be proud of such a verdict.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Notwithstanding the lateness of the hour. I propose to place on ' Hansard ' the facts of the case. For many years the federal government have been constructing federal lines of telegraph in the eastern portion of the province of Quebec known as the Chicoutimi district. Some weeks ago the papers regarding payments in the Auditor General's Report were ordered by the Public Accounts Committee, and Mr. Tache, the chief engineer of the Public Works Department, was brought here and was examined by the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) for nearly two hours, and by other members. He was examined about every item in the Auditor General's Report regarding the payments of money over these telegraph lines, he was examined about roads and bridges, and he stated- emphatically that not one dollar of that money had been spent for any other purpose except purposes in connection with the telegraph lines.
4191	i iili
He said that in certain places they had built a bridge which was used by children going from one portion of the village to another, but he said that by building that bridge they saved four or five miles in going around to repair the telegraph lines, and that it was absolutely necessary. He stated that in one or two places there were long distances without a single settler, and that they had to repair these roads in order to get along so as to repair the telegraph lines. And some person, I presume the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames), has prepared a statement absolutely at variance with the facts as given before the Public Accounts Committee. There is not one word of truth in that statement. That is a pretty strong statement for me to make, but I make it deliberately. And the hon. member for Kings and Albert (Mr. Fowler) is the honourable medium by which that dishonest statement is placed on the records of this House.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


George William Fowler: That calls forth applause from hon. members opposite-not because they understand what they are applauding but simply because it is a sweeping statement made by one on their own side. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Carvell) is a lawyer, and he ought to know that he is not warranted in making the statement that there is not one word of truth in the statements that I have read


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Not a word is true according to the evidence before the Public Accounts Committee.


George William Fowler: So far as personal knowledge is concerned the hon. member (Mr. Carvell) has absolutely no acquaintance with the facts ; he has never been in the place, never saw one of these bridges or the telegraph lines. He is taking his story from what some one else has said, whether on oath or not is another matter. He says that in all I have said there is not a word of truth. The evidence of which the hon. gentleman speaks related to the telegraph line and the bridges built supposedly in connection with it. But I took up other matters. And yet the hon. gentleman, without knowledge, without having heard any sworn testimony with regard to these matters, makes the sweeping statement that the whole thing is untrue. That of course, is to be expected from the hon. gentleman-and he is the honourable medium by which that honourable statement is made to this honourable House, to use his own phrase.


William Stevens Fielding: To carry out the arrangement, we shall have to take some Bills. We might rise now for that purpose, and we may go into Supply again.
Some resolutions reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

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On the order :
Third reading of Bill (No. 109) to authorize a bounty to volunteers who served the Crown in South Africa.-Mr. Oliver.
George Taylor: Before we take this up, do I understand that after the Bills the hon. minister (Mr. Fielding) proposes that we shall go again Into Supply?


William Stevens Fielding: I take it that hon. members on both sides would prefer to do so. We can do it only by general consent. If there is any objection, it will not be done ; the hour is late.


George William Fowler: No more Public Works estimates at any rate.


Mr. CAR YELL.: We can stay here a month, if necessary. I do not like this-


William Stevens Fielding: There is nothing to be gained by saying what shall or shall not be done. I am not anxious to remain here unduly.


George Taylor: The minister told me we were to adjourn early.


William Stevens Fielding: We will not have trouble about that. We are merely carrying out the arrangement to take up Bills and dispose of .them. Let us do that, and, if there is any objection to further sitting, I am prepared to meet the wishes of the House.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.

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Bill (No. 109) to authorize a bounty to Volunteers who served the Crown in South Africa.-Mr. Oliver.
Bill (No. 209) to amend the Canada Shipping Act.-Mr. Fielding.

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House in committee on Bill (No. 188) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act.-Mr. Oliver.
George Taylor: There are two Bills here that run somewhat concurrently, this one and Bill (No. 203) to amend the inspection and sale Act as regards grain. Would it not be well to have both discussed while we are in committee ?


William Stevens Fielding: If it is agreeable to hon. members generally. It will be understood, then, that we can discuss both at the same time, and when the motion for the reading of the second Bill is made there will be no discussion. I have no objection to that.


Frank Oliver: The Bill to amend the Manitoba Grain Act has already been in committee and its provisions have been agreed to in committee. I asked the House Mr. FIELDING.
to leave the Bill in committee so that, if amendments were made to the Inspection and Sale Act that were found to clash in any way with the Grain Act, the Grain Act could be amended without serious delay. If possible, I would like to have the Inspection and Sale Act considered with that view.


William D. Staples: That is, we will take up both together.


William Stevens Fielding: Treat the two Bills as one subject. *
On section 2,


William D. Staples: I understood that we were taking up the Inspection and Sale Act as well as the Manitoba Grain Act.


William Stevens Fielding: We could substitute the Inspection and Sale Act amendment for the other.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: We can do so by agreement, but the Bill to amend the Inspection and Sale Bill has not been referred to the committee.


William Stevens Fielding: It will simplify it if we rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again on this Manitoba Grain Act, and take up the other.
Progress reported.
House in committee on Bill (No. 203) to amend the Inspection and Sale Act as regards grain.
On section 3-definition.


Richard Stuart Lake: I would like to know the reasons for inserting this clause. The grain dealers of the Northwest, at a meeting, asked that the hardness and soundness of wheat should be the test rather than the colour. This appears to disregard their wishes entirely because it makes it absolutely certain that colour Is to be the main consideration.


Frank Oliver: I am not able to answer that definitely. This is the Bill as it comes from the Senate and the Senate in its wisdom has seen fit to make a provision such as is here. It is clearly the intention to specify as thoroughly as possible that the wheat must be hard, of red colour and of the Red Fife variety. There is evidently no intention to relax any of the provisions with regard to the quality of the wheat.
Mr, LAKE. I do not agree with the view of the Senate with regard to this matter. I think it would be very mjuch better that we should leave it as it was before in which case there was a certain amount of discretion given to the chief inspector. I would move that clause 3 be eliminated.
Amendment (Mr. Lake) negatived.

On section 5-amended tariff of fees.
Mr. OLIVER moved that the section be stricken out.


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Motion agreed to.
On section 6-cost of appeal.
Frank Oliver: That section 6 be stricken out and that the following be substituted therefor:
Subsection i of section 81 is amended by striking . out ' inspecting officer ' in the first line and substituting ' department ' therefor.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 8-commercial grades.
Mr. OLIVER moved that section 8 be struck out.


William D. Staples: Is there any substitution?


Frank Oliver: Yes, there is a substitution later on, but the effect is that under the Act as it stands to-day there is no provision for the grain standard board to vary the grades of oats. The proposal of the Bill OOO is that the grain standard board shall have the right to vary the standards of oats under certain circumstances. This is objected to and in place of tbe right to vary tbe standards it is proposed to add ' No. 1 and 2 black and mixed oats ' so as to provide for all reasonable contingencies and to leave the standard as now made without any question of variation.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On section 9-grain to be inspected in Winnipeg district.
Mr. OLIVER moved that the following be inserted as subsection 2 and 3 of section 123.
2.	Grain which is shipped from points west of Winnipeg to Winnipeg for orders, as provided in section 99c of the Manitoba Grain Act, and which goes forward without delivery in Winnipeg, shall be inspected at Winnipeg amd the certificate of inspection shall be issued at the end of 'the period of detention: provided, however, that on the written order of the agent of the shipper a oar of grain held at Winnipeg shall he inspected on its arrival and the certificate of inspection issued.
3.	In the case of grain which is being shipped east from elevators in Winnipeg or St. Boniface, the sample for inspection shall not be drawn from any car until the car has been billed for shipment by the railway company.
William D. Staples: Will the minister explain that?


Frank Oliver: Tbe first of the two subsections provides that grain which is being held at Winnipeg for orders shall be inspected at the end of the period of detention. If tbe car has been held the inspection shall be made when it is going out and not immediately after it has come in except that the
shipper may order it inspected after it comes in. If be does not so order it is inspected as it goes out.
Mr. SCHAFFNER, Why on going out ?


Frank Oliver: It is necessary to inspect it at some time and if it is to be sold on sample it is not desirable to inspect it before the sale is made; but if it is not sold in Winnipeg it is necessary that the inspection shall be made before it goes east from Winnipeg in order that no grain may go east from Winnipeg except under Inspection.


Mr. SCHAFFNER.: Would it interfere with the sample market to have the inspection before the grain goes on the sample board?


Frank Oliver: It was thought that if it had been already inspected and the certificate issued the grain would be ticketed as of a certain grade, tbe buyer would buy on that grade and much of the advantage of the sample market would be lost.


William D. Staples: Is this the only clause in the Bill providing for a sample market?


Frank Oliver: The only provision.


William D. Staples: How does this compare with the sample market, say in Minneapolis?


Frank Oliver: The cases are not parallel. Winnipeg is on the direct route to the head of the lake.


William D. Staples: The owner of a mixing elevator in Winnipeg can buy grain, mix It as he sees fit, put it on track, call for inspection and forward the grain on that inspection.


Frank Oliver: Yes.


William D. Staples: Does he not think that is throwing the door open towards the mixing of grain and losing the identity of our wheat in its shipment to the foreign market. I do not think this meets the wishes of the Grain Growers' Associations.


Frank Oliver: There is undoubtedly every objection to the mixing of grain once it has been graded, but there can be no objection to mixing before the grain is assembled at the point of inspection. If we can guarantee that from the point of assemblage and inspection forward there shall be no mixing we will have achieved the purpose in the mind of every western man interested in this trade. There must be some point at which the grain trade changes from sample to grade and it is generally conceded that the point should be Winnipeg.


William D. Staples: For grain that does not pass through Winnipeg but goes, for instance, through Emerson there can be no advantage from the sample market.


Frank Oliver: No, that grain is sampled for inspection at Emerson.


William D. Staples: I suppose a mixing elevator could be established at Emerson, and that eventually a sample market could be established there the same as in Winnipeg.


Frank Oliver: Of course the sample market is of no value unless there is a large number of samples and a large number of buyers. One of the difficulties about the sample market at Winnipeg is that there may not be enough sample buyers to make the proposition successful.


William D. Staples: Suppose that somebody thinks that it is to his material advantage to erect an elevator and go into the mixing business and establish a sample market, does this Act restrict any such operation?


Frank Oliver: No ; there is nothing against it.


William James Roche: Does the minister think that the sample market will be of any advantage to the farmers, restricted, as it is, to the period after the middle of December? I understand that they cannot use it prior to that date.


Frank Oliver: I doubt if there are enough buyers at Winnipeg to make the sample market a success, even if it were carried on all the year round. It is only an experiment, and my hon. friend is aware that there are great objections urged against the experiment by the railway companies on the ground that it is liable to tie up traffic. My view is that it is not advisable, in urging any changes, or what we think are improvements in connection with the grain trade, to create a position that might be blamed upon this advanced legislation, as we call it. We think it is better to go cautiously in this experiment, and not risk what the railway companies, who are good authorities on the subject, contend would be a serious disturbance of trade conditions, until we see how the matter is likely to work out. Therefore, it is provided that the provision as to an order point shall only prevail from the middle of December to the first of September. I move to insert the following as clause 7a of the Bill:
7a. The following section is inserted immediately after section 108 :
108a. Every elevator operator who allows the grain in a car which has been ordered east of Winnipeg or St. Boniface, from which he has signed a bill of lading and from which a sample of grain has been drawn for inspection as provided in subsection 3 of section 123 of this Act, to be returned, without the permission of the grain inspector, to the elevator from which it was loaded shall, for each offence be liable to a penalty not exceeding $50.


William D. Staples: That is a pretty small penalty. If the dealer wants to manipulate the grain in this manner, to put it back and touch it up a little provided it has failed to reach- the standard he was anticipat-Mr. OLIVER.
mg, he can do so with the permission of the inspector. Does the minister think that it is in the interest of the grain producers of the west to allow that?


Frank Oliver: Of course, we do not anticipate that the inspector will give such permission, unless there should be some physical reason why the car should be unloaded. The understanding is that he shall not do so except for some physical reason which has nothing whatever to do with the grain trade.	.


William D. Staples: Should not the wording of the clause be made a little more explicit?


Frank Oliver: In any matter that is at the absolute discretion of tbe inspector, the intent of the law is sufficient for an honest inspector ; and, of course, we do not want a dishonest one.


Richard Stuart Lake: I would suggest that we substitute tbe chief grain inspector for tbe inspector.


Frank Oliver: I am quite willing to do that.
On section 10,


William D. Staples: Will tbe minister explain to what extent special binning is going to be permitted, because I understand that it is very apt to create great congestion in tbe forwarding of our grain?


Frank Oliver: The provisions as framed in the amendment to the Manitoba Grain Act seem to me to guard effectually against any possibility of a congestion of the trade. In tbe first place, the conditions are not operative through the rush season; and, in the second place, the privileges cannot be availed of except with the permission of the warehouse commissioner, and he would not give permission for special binning under circumstances that would be likely to cause congestion. This provision is looked upon rather as an experiment. We have carefully guarded, we believe, against any ill effects, and the provision will give a fair opportunity to work it out and see what value there is in it.


Richard Stuart Lake: Will the inspector be able to inspect and control special bins which are given in any but tbe elevators operated by railway companies ? If the Canadian Pacific Railway elevators, which are the only elevators there now, have to give the whole of tbe special bins, that may cause some congestion.


Frank Oliver: Every elevator at Fort William and Port Arthur will be subject to tbe same restrictions with regard to special bins or anything else. The section we agreed to in the amendment to the Manitoba Grain Act declares that at any point declared to be a terminal point all elevators are to be public elevators.


Richard Stuart Lake: Then the inspector will have full discretion to divide the special bins among the various elevators.


Frank Oliver: He does not divide the bins but will give permission to the person who applies, if he thinks the interest of the trade will not suffer, and that person makes his own arrangements.
On section 7-In the month of August stock shall be taken of the quantity of each grade of grain in the terminal elevators.


Richard Stuart Lake: There is just one question. You will have a very large number of different grades of oats provided for now and all mixing of grain in bins apparently is prohibited. Has the minister taken that into consideration so as to determine whether there will be sufficient bins to accommodate all the different grades we are getting. We are providing a large number and also for special binning. This has been taken into consideration, I presume, in the discussion the minister has had with his responsible officers.


Frank Oliver: There will not be any
ing it here. But when we have a sample market, and when it has been proven that this wheat, after it is sent to the hospital and doctored, is of the same value for milling purposes as other wheat, it does seem but fair that the farmer should have the benefit of the grade. I followed, as well as I could, the discussion in the Senate. As well as I can gather, the objection to the proposition is that it somewhat lowers the tvpe or grade of wheat in the British market. But, if the wheat is of equal milling value, it seems to me the farmers should get the benefit. I believe the grain deal-et s have made a great deal of money On this wheat. We have been so unfortunate in my district as to have some smutty wheat not verv much of it, but by the processes they use they are able to turn it into good wheat.


Richard Stuart Lake: This covers three different varieties of No. 1-No. 1 hard, No. 1 spring and No. 1 northern.


Frank Oliver: That is why the word ' No. 1 ' is not repeated where the expression is used ' to the grade to which it belarger number of grades necessary under this Bill than without it. There are a larger number of grades established by statute, but during the past season, under the peculiar conditions that prevailed, the grain standards' board had authority to establish commercial grades so that there was last season a considerably larger number of grades than is provided for under this Bill.


Richard Stuart Lake: How many grades of oats were there last year ?	.


Frank Oliver: I could not say how many actual grades there were, but my hon. friend knows that in w'heat at any rate the number of grades was very large. There were five statutory grades of oats last year.
On section 17-grades of spring wheat.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Are these satisfactory to the grain growers ?


Frank Oliver: This is in place of the proposal which caused so much discussion in the Senate. The difference between the proposal discussed in the Senate and this is that the proposal in the Senate undertook to permit scoured or dried grain to go into the regular grades on the judgment of the inspector. This provision makes a separate place for scoured and dried grain of No. 1 and No. 2 quality, but as to No. 3, it is to go into the regular grades or not at the discretion of the inspector.
longs.'-No. 1 hard, No. 1 spring, or whatever it may be.


Richard Stuart Lake: There is only one No. 2 grade, but the same wording is used. Could it lead to any confusion? It is pretty clear to my mind, but I make the suggestion.


Frank Oliver: I think it is all right. Whatever grade the grain may be, if it is scoured, it shall be given that grade, but the word ' scoured ' shall be attached to it, if it is No. 1 or No. 2. But, if it is No. 3, the word ' scoured ' shall be attached, or may not be attached, at the discretion of the inspector. I think the provision is very carefully drawn and is all right.


Mr. HERRON.: This Bill provides for a grade of 'Alberta red.' Has any representation been made regarding the weight in these classes No. 1 and No. 2 Alberta red? I have heard complaints of many farmers within the last two years. It is said that these grades were two pounds too high, which was a great disadvantage to the growers.


Frank Oliver: I have not heard any objections to this. Of course, my hon. friend will see there has been a regrading-Alberta red, Alberta white and Alberta mixed. So, the condition is considerably changed from what it was last year.


William James Roche: At both points-Winnipeg and Port Arthur?


Frank Oliver: Winnipeg is where the inspection is made.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I know that this matter was discussed at some length in the Senate; I shall not take up time in discuss-
On section 18-grades of wheat.


John Herron: No. 1 Alberta red is to be 62 pounds to the bushel. It has been contended that this is .two pounds to the bushel higher than it should be. But, as I have had no request to have this reduced, I let it go.
13216

On section 19-grades of oats.


Richard Stuart Lake: Is the minister really satisfied that there is need for the large number of different grades here as well as power in the standard board to create more?


Frank Oliver: After I explained the proposition to place in the hands of the standard board the right to fix grades for oats, it was objected to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 188) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act.-Mr. Oliver.
William D. Staples: I was in hopes up to the present momeht that there would be inserted in this Bill that very particular request of the Grain Growers' Association of the provinces of Manitoba. Saskatchewan and Alberta. It appears that what they have long been earnestly seeking for has been entirely overlooked. I am not in a position to know what took place at the various conferences that have been held, and up to the pres mt time that matter has not been discussed to any extent on the floor of the House. I refer to government operation of terminal elevators.
If there is anything that the Grain Growers' Association have endeavoured to get it is that. I regret very much that the government had not given that point more consideration and had not incorporated in this Bill a provision to take over the control of the terminal and transfer elevators. What have the Grain Growers' Association got out of this for all the trouble they have gone to ? They have had conventions in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and they have passed resolutions and these meetings have cost no small amount of money. They have also sent delegates down here. They sent them down to the first conference that was held with the right lion. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright). Then, in order that they might be able to secure the passage of this legislation, they sent their representatives down again, they are here at the present time and I regret very much that the government have not undertaken the operation of the terminal and transfer elevators. The government have gone pretty nearly the whole distance in so far as cost is concerned. This legislation will require the appointment of a sufficient number of officers, in my opinion, to operate the terminal and transfer elevators; so that the government might very easily have gone to the extent that the delegates of the Grain Growers' Association have been asking them to go. I think it is very important that I should call the attention of the committee to some of the resolutions that were passed at the conference of the


John Herron: Grain Growers' Association. I hold in my hand :
Extracts from minutes of meetings of conference of representatives from the Grain Growers' Associations of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and the Farmers' Association of Alberta, held in Saskatoon, February 15 and 17, 1908.
Whereas the Royal Grain Commission, in a report to the Hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce, dated February 1, 1907, report that the tendency at Fort William and Port Arthur is for elevators to go under control of private companies, that the operating of terminal elevators by private companies under present regulations would be detrimental to the trade, and destroy public confidence in the result obtained therefrom ;
Whereas the commission in their report laid on the table of the House of Commons, state that the private corporations operating terminals at Fort William are composed largely of the shareholders, officers and directors of grain firms and country line elevators in Winnipeg, and as such have a direct financial interest in much of the grain passing through Fort William ;
Whereas the commission in their report recommended as a remedy the weighing, cleaning and binning grain in all terminal elevators under the supervision of officers appointed by the Dominion government; and
Whereas we are of the opinion that the remedy suggested by the commission is inadequate to meet the requirements of a terminal system of elevators and maintain the public confidence in the result obtained at such terminals ; and
Whereas the Farmers', association of Alberta and the Grain Growers' Associations of Saskatchewan and Manitoba at their annual conventions each passed a resolution urging the Dominion government to acquire, own and operate the terminals at Fort William and Port Arthur ;
Be it resolved that we endorse the findings of the S.G.G.A. and the M.G.G.A. and the A. F.A., as expressed in their respective annual conventions re urging the Dominion government to acquire, own and operate a complete system of storage terminal elevators, and further that each of the executives of the above associations appoint two delegates to form a joint delegation to wait on the Dominion government to present the views of the grain growers of the three prairie provinces.
Whereas there is danger that in the transfer of grain on the various routes from the lake terminals to the sea-board, that much of the advantage obtained by the government ownership and operation at the lakes will be lost unless the transfer elevators are also owned and operated by the Dominion government ;
Be it resolved that the delegates to Ottawa be instructed to urge that these transfer elevators should also be owned and operated by the Dominion government.
What they desire the government to do is set out clearly there. The delegates that came down here, after listening to the evidence that was adduced by railway corporations, bankers, &c., sat down and made a digest of the discussion that took place

at that conference. They have sent to me, and, I presume, to all the members of the House, quite a lengthy synopsis of what they desire to have crystalized into legislation. Here is one of the principal recommendations they make :
The most important resolutions and the ones which induced the conference to the length of asking the several associations, to send delegates to Ottawa, were (1) the one urging the Dominion government to acquire (which may be by construction, purchase or lease without interfering with the essential future) and operate the terminals at Port William and Port Arthur, (2) the resolution growing out of this asking that the Dominion government acquire and operate the transfer elevators and (3) another providing for the special binning of grain at the terminals in order that a satisfactory sample market might be developed in Winnipeg to the mutual benefit of the producer and miller.
The government undertakes to classify western wheat into grades according to certain specifications. The safeguarding of the producer of that grain as well as the millers of Ontario and Britain requires that the government surround that grain in transit with such protection as will insure it9 delivery at points of destination as inspected by the chief inspector.
There is a growing and well grounded conviction among growers of grain in the west that existing conditions at the terminals at Fort William and Port Arthur and the transfer elevators between these terminals and the Atlantic sea-board, afford opportunities for manipulation detrimental to the best interests of the country. This conviction is borne out by the report of the Royal Grain Association. On page 18 of the report the following statement appears; say there is a possibility of the elevator operators mixing grain contrary to the Gram Inspection Act-in some cases samples were produced to us that would lead us to believe that there had been either manipulation or serious mistakes made somewhere.
This shows that the existing conditions not only afford an opportunity for mixing grain contrary to this Act, but that mixing and adulteration actually does take place. Again on the same page we read: There is a very general complaint throughout Ontario that they do not get the regular grades of Manitoba grain of wheat especially in as clean a condition as is called for by the Inspection Act. We also found from examination of arrivals in Great Britain, that the grain as received there contains too great a percentage of foreign matter.
I think I have read sufficient to show the House that what the Grain Growers' Association really want is government operation. I shall not argue at present whether it is preferable to obtain that by construction or purchase but I do urge upon the government the necessity of getting the control and operation of those elevators by lease. They have gone to the distance of appointing officers to check the grain through the elevator system, and the government should have gone one step further and obtained control of the elevators and operated them. That
was suggested on this side years ago and had the proposition of the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) received the attention it should we would by this time have worked out the system which the grain growers want. To show that members on 'this side in the last parliament called the attention of the government to the necessity of government ownership and operation of terminals, I shall read an extract from a speech made by the leader of the opposition. It will be found in the ' Hansard ' of 1903, at page 12626. Mr. Borden at that time fully realized that in order to protect the identity of our wheat it would be necessary for the government to undertake a system of terminal and transfer elevators, not only for Fort William but clean through to the sea-board. Mr. Borden said, replying to the Postmaster General (Mr. Lemieux) :
My hon. friend the Postmaster General grew merry over my proposal to equip the Georgian bay, the St. Lawrence, and maritime ports. At page 9777 of ' Hansard ' he actually derides this proposal, and in effect declares- and I think the attention of the country should be called to it-that it is no part of the policy of the government of this country to spend one single dollar upon the Georgian bay ports, or upon the St. Lawrence, or Atlantic ports. I say that after having examined the language of 'the Postmaster General, and I will show ito the House and to the country how I gather that distinct enunciation of policy from the language of the hon. gentleman. The hon. Postmaster General is making a fair comparison-he has stated that over and over agai n-between my proposal and the proposal of the government. He calls attention, at page 9778 of * Hansard ' to the fact that the debt of the harbour of the city of Quebec amounts to $5,803,538, and he calls attention to the fact that the debt of the harbour of the city of Montreal amounts to $8,051,156. He does not go into the cost of the equipment of other ports, he does not give the figures in regard to them, because he has not the figures before him, but he takes the figures which he has, and he deliberately adds them to the cost of my proposal, and adds not one single dollar to the cost of the government proposal. He is either making an unfair comparison, and I cannot charge him with that, or else it is not the policy of the government to spend one dollar on the equipment and development of the Georgian bay ports, the St. Lawrence or the Atlantic ports. If there is any answer to that, I would like to [DOT] know what it is. We have a member of the government, put up by the government to criticise the financial part of my proposal, deliberately adding $5,803,538, the debt of the harbour of the city of Quebec, and $8,051,156, the debt of the harbour	of the city of
Montreal, to the cost of my proposal, and not one dollar for any of these works does he add to the proposal of the government. Is it not an accurate and necessary deduction from that to say that not one dollar does the government propose to expend on the development of the Georgian bay ports, the St. Lawrence or the Atlantic ports? Either that is the policy of the government or

else ibhe lion. Postmaster General lias made a deliberately unfair comparison. I leave the bon. gentleman and the right hon. leader, of the House to say which of these alternatives he desires to accejrt.
After some cross-firing between himself and (tbe then member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) the leader of the opposition said :
My hon. friend from Selkirk /(Mr. McCreary) has perhaips misunderstood me a little. X do not think my information went so far as to say that there are" state-owned elevators, but my understanding is the state takes such control over them that the certificates issued for grain deposited in these elevators bear upon them the stamp of the state, *that farmers receiving these certificates can look to the whole credit of the state to see that they are paid and that, in fact, they are practically regarded as negotiable instruments by tbe farmers of the west. I would defer to the superior knowledge of my hon. friend from Selkirk in regard to that, but I am informed by people who profess to be conversant with the facts that such a condition exists in some of the western states.
If we bad had such legislation as the leader of the opposition then proposed It would have been most beneficial in the west last fall. It will be remembered that last fall we had difficulty in financing on our wheat. When the wheat was loaded on cars we could not get the banks to advance money' on it, but if we had the government of the country behind us, there would be no difficulty in financing on a bill of lading. Mr. Borden continued :
I would not suppose that it was a very radical thing after all to suggest that the government should consider the economic saving in providing elevators or warehouses at a minimum cost, instead of having farmers themselves provide them at a minimum cost. I think perhaps my hon. friend from Selkirk will agree with me in that view although he may have some modifications to suggest. For example, if it should cost a cent a bushel to warehouse grain for a certain period of time, and if by such assistance as the government could give to the farmers of the west that grain could be stored for a quarter of a cent a bushel during the same period of time, surely a suggestion of that bind is not so utterly absurd that the government should not take it into consideration. That was all I asked., I did not put this forward as a proposal. I put it forward as something which I thought the government should consider. I adhere absolutely to that opinion, notwithstanding the sneer of the bon. Postmaster General, and I think it is a suggestion whioh the government will have to take into consideration in the not very distant future.
I was very much pleased indeed in looking up information on this Important question of government operation of terminal elevators to discover that the leader of the opposition five years ago had this in mind and was anxious that the government should have worked out the legislation which the Mr STAPLES.
grain growers of Saskatchewan and Alberta are asking now. He even went further than that and incorporated that proposal in a resolution which was voted down by the government supporters. It was incorporated In a resolution of some length. I will not read the whole resolution, but only the portion that refers to this particular matter :
Perfecting a system of elevator warehouses, and creating free terminal facilities, and securing absolute aud thorough control of rates in consideration for assistance thus given.
I am very sorry that when this question has been discussed in a great many conferences in the room of the Minister of the Interior we on this side of the House had not an opportunity to go there and try to induce the government to take over and operate the terminal elevators at Port William, as well as the transfer elevators farther east. To my mind, the best way to do it would be to lease tbem as an experiment for ten years. I understand that the constitutional rule prevents us on this side of the House from moving an amendment or I certainly would even [DOT] now move an amendment and divide the House upon it. But that is a privilege that we on this side of the House do not possess. [DOT]


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I am very much in sympathy with what has been said by the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Staples). Anyone who has resided in the west during the last twenty years can come to no other conclusion than that a very grave suspicion has arisen between the producer and the grain dealer. I am not going to say that there have not been good reasons for this suspicion, but it certainly does exist. There is a feeling that the producer is not getting his fair share of the profit, that too much of it goes to the dealer. To my mind, that arises very largely from the grading of wheat, and it is a feeling that is not peculiar to Canada alone. The same condition of affairs exists very largely in the western states. 1 find that some bankers in the western states took this matter up in connection with the terminal elevators at Duluth, aud I think it is only reasonable to believe that a very similar condition exists at Port Arthur and Fort William. One of the great difficulties there is that most of the elevators are owned or controlled by private -dealers. The same dealers who control these elevators also own or control what we call the line elevators. That gives them a great advantage in connection with the transfer of wheat. This question of line elevators has to be met sooner or later, and the resolution which the hon. member for Macdonald has read shows that the grain growers of the west have but one opinion on the matter. They want the miller in the east or the British market to get the wheat, and the same grade of wheat, that the farmer gets his pay for. I have

here a statement signed by five of the leading bankers of Minnesota and Dakota, and if I spent two hours in talking I could not say more clearly what I believe than it is expressed in this statement. My opinion is that that condition of affairs has existed in Port Arthur and Fort William for many years, and the producers of wheat have been great losers in consequence. These bankers report the quantities of the different grades of wheat that were shipped into the elevators at Duluth and the quantities shipped out. Of No. 1 Northern 99,000 bushels were received, while 196,000 bushels were shipped out; of No. 2 Northern 141.000 bushels were received, while
464.000	bushels were shipped out; of No. 3,
272.000	bushels were received and 213,000 were shipped out. There were also received of No. 4 201,000 bushels, of no grade
116.000 bushels and of rejected 59,000 bushels. I have stated all the grades that were shipped out. Of No. 4, no grade and rejected, none were shipped out at all. This shows the very thing that our farmers in the west are suspicious of-that their wjheat goes into the elevator at a certain grade and comes out at a different grade. Until the government, who represent the farmers, get control of these terminal elevators, the farmer 'will never be able to get his share of the profit of producing wheat. That report of the bankers of Minnesota and Dakota should have great influence with this government in inducing them to control in some way these terminal elevators.


Richard Stuart Lake: It is now more than a quarter past two in the morning, and I can only express regret that this most- important measure to the Northwest has been delayed to the very last days of the session and to such a late hour of the night; but 1 do wish to add a word or two to what has been said bv my colleagues on this side of the House 'in favour of the proposal of the grain growers that the government should operate the terminal and transfer elevators. The grain growers who had this proposition very much at heart sent down here a delegation to discuss the question. Certain evidence was given during the discussion which took place in the office of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and certain points came out there which it is important to call attention to. The proposal is of course that, as the government undertakes to classify and grade this wheat and give it a certificate, it should see that the grain is keDt in its purity from the point of production until it reaches its ultimate market. The government proposes to have a very large' staff of inspectors to take care of this grain and have absolute control over it from the time it goes into the elevators until it reaches the market. That will mean practically doubling the number of persons at work in those elevators. There will have to be as many inspectors
as operators, and the expense on the grain will be practically doubled. I doubt very much whether the control will be effective. And I doubt very much whether It will be workable to have two sets of men with joint control. That will be sure to result in friction. All this extra cost must be borne by the producer. It would be very much better to have the one set of officials operate under the government itself in the capacity of government employees. In that case you could do with many less officials. Government operation need not be costly. Evidence was given before a committee of this House a couple of years ago to show that the western inspection department was more than self-supporting already. The prices which the producer now has to pay for the operation of the elevators, as well as for an efficient inspection, would much more than meet all the expenses of government operation.
As regards the private elevators, a gentleman representing the Winnipeg Grain Exchange and who in that capacity also represented the owners of the privately-owned terminal elevators at Fort William and Port Arthur gave evidence at the conference which was held before the Minister of Trade and Commerce. His evidence was to the effect that he believed there would be no objection on the part of the owners to the government taking over the elevators and operating them. The Canadian Northern Railway has already sold out their terminal elevators and the Canadian Pacific Railway would no doubt also be willing enough to do so. There is no reason why they should object to government operation, provided that operation was as efficient as their own, and I have no doubt it would be. We ought also to have the transfer elevators under government operation in this country. This evening we provided for wages of officials to operate the government elevators at Port Colborne. There are also government elevators a.t Montreal, Halifax and St. John. The proposal to have elevators operated by the government is not a new one, as my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Staples) has 1 minted out. If, as he suggested, it would be in order for a private member to move a resolution involving the expenditure of public money, a resolution would be moved from this side to the effect that the government should take over the operation of our terminal and transfer elevators. Such a resolution would be ruled out, and therefore we have to content ourselves with stating our views and regretting that the government has not seen fit to meet the wishes of the grain growers.


William James Roche: I simply desire to add my voice to that of my hon. colleague in expressing my regret that the very reasonable request of the grain

growers of the west has not been complied with, as regards the government operation of terminal elevators. I have Jhad numerous opportunities of meeting deputations of grain growers associations in my constituency, and I do not think there is anything in connection with the carrying, inspection and handling of grain that they urged with greater force than this question of the government operation of terminal elevators, and that of car distribution, and I am glad the distribution is not going to be unfair but must express my regret that the government have not acceded to the desire of the grain growers by taking, as an experiment, a lease of the present elevators and operating them as a government enterprise. This would establish the confidence of our farmers in the system of inspecting and the handling of grain, which they have not today. Whether warranted or not, there is a deep rooted conviction that there is mixing going on and grading to their disadvantage in the private elevators. To restore the confidence of the farmers is to have the handling of their grain under a system, of government operation.


John Herron: I want to say that I acquiesce in the statement made by the hon. members from the western provinces, and had there been an opportunity to vote from the opposition side of this House, I would certainly cast my vote in favour of government ownership and operation of the terminal elevators. Where I live the people have been looking forward to having that put in this Bill, and they will be disappointed to find it is not there.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



THIRD READING.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 183) to amend the Canada Shipping Act.-Mr. Brodeur.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
George Taylor: What business will be taken up to-morrow?


William Stevens Fielding: Railway subsidies and resolutions concerning the guarantee in aid of railways.


George Taylor: What about the Election Act?


William Stevens Fielding: I presume it will come up later, if the railway subsidies are disposed of early.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, House adjourned at 2.30 a.m., Thursday.
William James Roche: Thursday, July 16, 1908.