1908-06-22

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day being read:
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inquire of the government at how early a date it is expected to bring down the remaining legislation that has already been mentioned by the right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) ; also whether there will be any supplementary estimates and, if so, when they will be brought down ?	[DOT]


Mr. FIELDING.: There will be supplementary estimates. As to the date, I am unable to inform my hon. friend. As to the other portion of his question, I would prefer to communicate with my right hon. friend the Prime Minister who will be here later in the day.



CIVIL SERVICE ACT AMENDMENT.

Robert Laird Borden: I would like to inquire whether or not it is the intention of the government to introduce any resolutions upon which the Civil Service Bill will be founded. In looking over the Bill since its introduction I observe that it creates additional charges upon the public revenues of the country, in some cases by way of increase and in other cases by way of addi-

tionul appointments and offices which involve salaries. I think it is perfectly clear, under the authorities which are quoted in Bourinot, pages 569, 638 and 664, that in so far as these portions of the Bill are concerned, they must be founded upon resolutions and with the view of expediting the progress of the Bill, I thought it best to call the attention of the government to what seems to be an omission in order that the necessary resolutions may be introduced at the earliest possible moment.


William Stevens Fielding: I think that it would probably be better to proceed by way of resolution and my hon. colleague (Mr. Fisher) has been contemplating that. It is possibly a debatable question whether this is actually an appropriation Bill or whether it is a Bill which is dependent upon later legislation. However, if there is any doubt it would be better to proceed by way of resolution and that will be done.


Robert Laird Borden: With deference to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, it seems clear to me that it is absolutely necessary because there are distinct charges upon the public revenue created by the Bill which are not in existence at the present time. The ordinary course is to introduce a resolution in the first instance, but there has been a practice sometimes of first introducing the Bill, leaving the money clauses in blank. However, not even that course has been pursued in the present case.
I have no doubt the House will not be disposed to be critical with regard to an important measure of this kind, and I think it would be'wise to have the omission corrected at the earliest possible moment.


William Stevens Fielding: I agree with my hon. friend as to what has been the course in the past. However, this is one of those cases in which I think the proper procedure would be to proceed by resolution.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend the Minister of Finance will observe that there are distinct provisions as to salaries of deputy ministers generally and as to the salaries of three deputy ministers in particular. There is also the distinct provision that members of the Civil Service Commission shall have the same salary as an ordinary deputy minister. Therefore, it seems to be a very distinct case in which the legislation should be founded on a resolution.


William Stevens Fielding: If that is so I think we would be hardly justified in paying any of these salaries without a distinct appropriation. However, 1 agree that it is better to proceed in the way my hon. friend suggests. There are cases in which reference is made to salaries but that does not create an appropriation Act. But, there is no difference of opinion between my hon. friend and myself as to the best procedure.


Mr. PRINGLE.: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) if
the commission would have power, under clause 10, to see as to the physical fitness of those applying for admission to the civil service, or whether there will be any provision in the Bill with regard to that. I think it is very important that the examination as to the physical condition of candidates should be such that they should be properly admitted to the civil service.


Mr. FISHER.: It has been contemplated that the w-ord ' health ' in the clauses referring to the examination of candidates would cover what my bon. friend (Mr. Pringle) indicates, but -these provisions should be subject to the rules and regulations of the commission.



PEACE RIVER VALLEY LAND COMPANY.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: I desire to ask the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver) in what condition the grant of land to the company in the Peace river valley now stands. The minister has had in contemplation the cancelling of the grant. I would like to know if he has cancelled the concession given to these people and if not, why there is any delay in cancelling it.
Mr. OLIVER, I have already informed the House that we have given the company-notice to show cause why the contract should not be cancelled. We delayed action on account of representations made by the company that they desired to have some time to put in a defence, the time they asked for being on account of the absence of some of their principal men from the country. I may say that recently my time has been very fuilv occupied in the House, that I have not had time to follow up the matter as I certainly otherwise would and as I intend to as soon as I have an opportunity.



JUDGES' SALARIES.&quot;

Mr. LENNOX.: I desire to address a question to the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) with reference to judges' salaries. I would like to inquire if it is a fact that application has been made by judges for their salaries and that it has been reported to them that their salaries cannot be paid because the money has not been voted.


William Stevens Fielding: I could not answer my hon. friend without making inquiry into the matter. I have no knowledge of the matter but something may have occurred that lias not been brought to my notice. I will inquire and let him know.



IMMIGRATION REGULATIONS.

Haughton Lennox: I also desire to ask a question of the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver). It is reported in the press that an order in council has been passed by which certain Immigrants are required to have in their possession at least $200 when they come to the country. I would like to

ask the minister what class of people that applies to and if he will lay the order in council on the table.


Mr. OLIVER.: Perhaps the best way to answer the question would be to lay the order on the table.


Haughton Lennox: I would like to have the minister's interpretation as well.
, Mr. OLIVER. I will be very glad to lay the order on the table as soon as I can procure it, and as soon as I do I will make a statement in regard to it.



QUESTIONS.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Blain-asked :
What area of coal lands in Alberta and Saskatchewan, not subject to the payment of royalty to the Crown, have been sold or leased since 1896?
Frank Oliver: 35,894-75 acres. Several sales of coal mining lands made during the above period were subsequently cancelled for different reasons, and these sales are not included in the above area.
WHARF AT RED HEAD, NOVA SCOTIA. Mr. ARMSTRONG asked:
1.	What is the total amount of money spent by the government at Red Head, Nova Scotia, since coming to office?
2.	Was the work done in a manner satisfactory to the government, and are the improvements giving general satisfaction to the public ?
3.	What is the length of the wharf built at North East Harbour?
4.	Is the wharf completed? If not, does the government intend completing the works, and when will operations commence ?
5.	What is the total amount of money spent on this wharf to date, and what is the total estimated cost of said wharf?
The difference between these amounts and the total cost is made up as follows :
Site	$2,300	00Survey	
103	05Legal services	
43	15Printing and advertising.. ..	658	03Clerk of works	
1,836	00Post office boxes	
903	00Wiring account	
600	00Boiler	
203	20Brass grilles	
178	25Safe	
316	75Travelling expenses, &c.. ..	391	20


$7,532 63 CHINESE IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 184) to amend the Chinese Immigration Act.-Mr Oliver.
Frank Oliver: This Bill stood for reconsideration with reference to the admission of students of Chinese origin into Canada. From the discussion which took place at that time there appeared to be a desire to make a radical change from the position as it heretofore existed. The Bill, as it was introduced, undertook to make a minor change restricting the condition with regard to student immigration. In the discussion, however, it appeared that this restriction did not meet the views of the House. It appeared that in the judgment of the House the basis was radically wrong and further consideration of the Bill was postponed for the purpose of drafting an amendment that would be presumed to be m accord with the views then expressed by members of the House who took part in the debate. In accordance then with the conclusion which appeared to have been reached at that time I beg to move :


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: 1.	$2,498.91.
2.	Yes.
3.	950 feet.
4.	and 5. Wharf is completed and total expenditure has been $4,221.85.


ST. MARY'S POST OFFICE.
Mr. BLAIN asked :: What was the total cost of the St. Mary's post office, including the land, and what was the contract price?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works):: (a) Total cost to date, including land, $37,532.63.
(b) Contract, construction of
building	
Contract, fittings	
" attic	
heating apparatus


Haughton Lennox: 


Mr. SPROULE.: You say ' one year.' Suppose the course of an institution does not run for a year, does that include a year from a certain date to a certain date, or the college term?


Frank Oliver: The intent of the amendment is that it shall apply to a period of one year within which the year of the university or other educational institution shall be contained.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it intended that after the Chinese subject has been in attendance at one of these institutions for one year, he is at liberty to remain in Canada without any head tax or any further charge ?


Frank Oliver: Yes ; but he is not entitled to this privilege unless he has satisfied our authorities that he has been a student in China.


Mr.   I@: The policy is that a bona fide Chinese student, who has been such in China, and who comes to Canada for the purpose of attending and does attend a university or other educational institution approved of by the Governor in Council, shall have his tax refunded, and shall thereafter be at liberty to remain in Canada ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
Frank Oliver: I move to strike out subsection 5 of section 2 to make it conform to the terms of the section just adopted.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill reported.
Mr. OLIVER moved third reading of the Bill.
Robert Laird Borden: Before the Bill is read the third time, I would like to ask the minister if he has formed any idea of the extent to which this provision is likely to be availed of ? In other words, to what extent will it open the doors to Chinese immigration in British Columbia and the other provinces ?


Frank Oliver: To a very limited degree. The abuse that exists in British Columbia is because of the advantage which has been taken of the provision now in the Act by those who had not been students in China, and who were not as a matter of fact bona
fide students in Canada. The evil, or that which we consider is an evil, will be absolutely cured by this provision, and we think that the door is not opened wider by it than ordinary international courtesy would entitle it to be.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['Tuesday, June 23, 1908.']
Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton).: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair I wish to call the attention of the House to the position of the Indian Department. I will show that that department is run in the most careless and reckless manner, that this government, since it came to power, has sold some 020,000 acres of Indian lands at prices ranging from 10 cents an acre up, the total money received for them being only a little over $1,500,000, and that it has disposed of dozens of islands belonging to the Indians at $1 a piece. I do not think the Minister of the Interior is conversant with what has been and is going on in the Indian Department ; or if he is, he is deserving of the severest censure. I admit that the department which the Minister of the Interior has charge of is altogether too large for the amount >of time and energy that he can bestow upon it. I am sure he will be frank enough to say that, so far as the Indian Department is concerned, he knows little or nothing about it and has given it very little attention. The total expenditure of the Indian Department is over $1,500,000 per annum, of which practically half goes to the officials and only half reaches the Indians. In this connection, I desire to give a number of figures which will show that the department and its affairs require immediate attention. We have to-day an Indian population under treaty of 85,000. The total Indian population is about 110,000, so that there is considerably over 20,000 outside of treaty. A large amount of money is taken from the funds each year on account of Indians outside of treaty, but we cannot learn that much of this expenditure really goes to the benefit of these Indians. The statistics I shall give cover mainly the ten years from 1895 to 1905. The next fiscal period after that is only nine months and does not afford a good basis of comparison. When this government came into power, Mr. Hayter Reed had charge of the Indian Department. As far as we can learn, he was conducting the affairs of that department in a businesslike and straightforward manner. But he was superannuated on something like $2,000 a year. And to show you the value of the man, it is only necessary to say that he is receiving $15,000 a year from the Canadian Pacific Railroad as superintendent of their

system of hotels throughout the Dominion.
Here are the figures showing the payments on account of Indians outside of treaty for ten years. I call the attention of the minister to these figures, which he can verify by referring to his annual report. I think he will find no justification in that report for the increase of these expenditures year after year :
Payments made to Indians outside of treaty:
1895		$ 2,900
1896		 3,700
1897		 1,400
.1898	   7,200
1899		 5,400
1900		 8,100
1901	 9,400
1902		 18,100
1903		  19,700
1904		 26,600
And, from all that I can learn, these expenditures have materially increased since that time, though the benefit to the Indian outside of treaty has not been very apparent. Some time ago I had an interview' with two missionaries, thoroughly acquainted with the district outside of treaty. They assured me that there are not 10,000 nontreaty Indians outside the Yukon. And when I told them of the large expenditures made for Indians outside of treaty, they gave me the instance of 3,000 Indians around James bay without a single doctor or official to care for them. They told me of another district in Moosonee and Keewatin, in which there are 10,000 Indians with no doctor or government official. And. besides most of these 10.000 are treaty Indians. It would be interesting to have a detailed statement of the expenditure of about $30,000 per year which the minister is making in connection with Indians outside of treaty. In 1904-5, the number of officials in the outside service of the Indian Department was 397: salaries paid to these officials $143,000. The total number of officials, inside and outside service, was 1,064 and the total salaries $343,769. In ten years up to 1904-5, the increase in the number of officials in the outside service was 80, the increase in the number of doctors was 106, and the increase in the amount of salaries was $35,800. The increase in the number of teachers was one. (And I may remark in passing that when I come to criticise the educational branch of the Indian Department, the minister will see that it has been sadly lacking in any advanced legislation or means of helping the Indians to receive a better education.) The total increase in the officials, outside and inside services, in the ten years referred to was 233, and the increases in the salaries made a total of $46,000. During this time there was practically no increase in the number of Indians under treaty. The number of Indians in the Yukon was 3,302. On May 9, 1906, there were three Indian Mr. ARMSTRONG. '
schools in operation in the Yukon, one boarding school and two day schools.
According to an answer I received from the Minister of the Interior, there are no officials of the Indian Department in the Yukon up to 1906.
The following figures show the condition of Indian affairs for the several provinces :
-	Indians.	Government doctors.	Payments to doctors.	Other officials.!	Salaries.
			$		9
Ontario	20,850	58	14,427	157	36,000Quebec	11,218	32	3,127	65	8,980Manitoba	
N. W. Ter.- Saskatchewan	6,850	26	8,388	202	55J190and Alberta Man. and N.W. Ter. generally B. Columbia....	. 17,393	63	21,724	319	100,920 16,144 45,54025,it2	52	13,958	112	Mew Brunswick	1,600	41	3,222	61	5,590Nova Scotia.. ..	1,993	42	3,605	70	6,775P. E. Island ...	1,288	y	787	11	600
The total number of Indians under treaty was 85,553 and the number of doctors was 323, an increase in ten years of 106. The cost of medical attendance was $69,332, an increase in ten years of $35,810. The officials numbered 1,064 and they received $343,768 in salaries, -an increase in ten years of $46,160. The total amount paid to doctors and officials by the Indian Department amounted to $413,000. The minister should take this into his consideration. Hs will find that of the $1,500,000 expended In a year on account of the Indians at least $750,000 goes towards the wages of officials, the payment of doctors and the administration of Indian Affairs.
Comparisons between the expendi/tures on these accounts in the different provinces disclose remarkable differences.
It might be worth the minister's while to endeavour to ascertain the cause of these differences in expenditures between Manitoba and such provinces as Quebec and British Columbia. As I understand, he will find many of the officials in Manitoba have been actively engaged in partisan work for this government, that they are' devoting a great deal of their time to looking after the welfare of members of this House and Liberal members of the Manitoba legislature. He will find from the reports all over Canada that the Indians have been in remarkably good health for a number of years, and that there has been no great amount of contagious disease in the districts to which I have referred.
I cannot understand the great differences in the expenditures in the different provinces. I have given a great deal of attention to this department for the last two years,

and I can assure the minister that after making a somewhat thorough investigation of it I consider that it is high time he should take a direct interest in that department or else that the government should appoint a minister who would take a direct interest and see that the moneys, instead of being squandered as they are, are used for the benefit of the wards of this nation. The Indians not under treaty are as follows:-
No. of
District.	Indians.
Ungava	 5,060
Franklin district	 2,500
Athabaska	 1,239
Mackenzie	district	 4,419
Yukon	 3,302
Keewatin	_	 5,834
Total	 22,084
In 1905-6 these Indians had expended on them some $26,000.
The minister should also consider the number of reserves in each province. It
is as follows :-
No. of
Province.	Reserves.
Ontario	 If 6
Quebec	  110
New Brunswick	  65
Nova Scotia	 37
Manitoba	 129
British Columbia	 21
Saskatchewan	 165
Alberta	 215
Prince Edward Island	 144
I wish to call attention to the fact that in the province of British Columbia, according to the minister's own statement that I have in ' Hansard,' he admitted that they had 1,040 reserves with 25,000 Indians, and possibly that goes to explain the manner in which affairs are conducted in the Indian Department in that province. In Saskatchewan the average population of a reserve is 165 ; in Alberta, 215 ; in Prince Edward Island, 144 ; in British Columbia only 21. The minister will see the- wide range in the numbers located on the different reserves. Let him look up the Indian Report of last year and he will find that he has a great number of reserves where men are being paid as agents while there are very few Indians on the reserves. I shall be able to show him later on that there are a number of reserves having only 25 or even 10 people, and a great many of them having a very small number, and that attention and those advantages cannot be given to them which they would receive if the number on the reserve was larger. I will be able to show the minister the manner in which the reserves are conducted in the United States, and the large number of Indians that are on the reserves of that country. In the large industrial schools of the United States there are 30 or 40 different tribes represented, and these are receiving an education from the state in a thoroughly up to date business way. If he will investigate the United States reports he will see that their Indians are making wonderful advances towards civilization, while the Indians in the Dominion of Canada are practically where they were 100 years or more ago. They are not on the whole making any great advances towards citizenship. The minister may say that it is scarcely possible to make a good citizen of the Indian, but if he will look into the manner in which the Indians are treated in the United States and see what they are accomplishing towards civilizing the Indians, he will be convinced that we as a nation should be ashamed of the manner in which we are treating the Indians, and the slow progress they are making towards good citizenship. It is all very well to bring in Doukhobors and people of that class, with less intellect than the average of our Indians, and make them citizens of Canada and give them the franchise, hut it is not worth while, apparently, judging from the minister's administration of the department, to take the Indians of this Dominion and elevate them and bring them up to the standard of citizenship.
Now in Quebec, with an average of 410 on the reserves, the Indians are in better circumstances. According to the figures for the other provinces, there are 64 reserves with less than 100 of a population; there are 71 reserves with less than 75, 57 reserves witli less than 50, 24 reserves with less than 30, 35 reserves with less than 20, 6 reserves with less than 5, and 1 reserve with less than 10. Surely some radical change is needed in the policy of locating Indians on the different reserves, and the minister might consider the advisability of a policy of concentratiofn. Let him consider that the Indians already in the Dominion of Canada own land and property to the value of $82,000,000, and that last year they were able, in spite of many drawbacks, and in spite of the position they are placed in by the manner in which their affairs are conducted, earn over $5,000,000 from their personal efforts. According to the statement of the Department of Indian Affairs the property owned by these 85,000 Indians in the Dominion of Canada, amounted to over $32,000,000. There is, therefore, no excuse for this government not to give them a proper education and proper care. The agricultural statistics of 1904-5 show the value of the implements and vehicles owned by them amounted to $819,000; live stock and poultry, $2,148,000 ; real estate and personal property, $28,960,030. The report of the minister for 1906 show's that $5,000,000 is the aggregate earnings of the Indians from all sources, exclusive of all interest moneys, annuities and rentals. The increase from 1903-4 to 1904-5 was $248,9*3. The expenditure by this government from

consolidated fund was $1,177,364. The expenditure from Indian trust funds was $346,660. The total expenditure in that year amounted to $1,524,024. Now I wish to impi'ess this point upon the minister, that an expenditure of $1,500,000 on the Indians, one half of that goes for administration. If he will look at the pay given his officials, salaries to doctors, expenditures in connection with treaties, and expenses of his agents in conducting their establishments and purchasing supplies, he will find that about $750,000 of the $1,500,000 goes towards expenses in conducting affairs of the Indians. It seems to be an extraordinary condition of affairs that one-half of the money which is expended on the Indians is required to expend the other half. I would urge upon the minister the necessity of giving them better consideration in many regards. In the provinces of Quebec and Ontario the expenditure on 32,000 Indians amounted to $17,000; in Nova Scotia, $8,000, in New Brunswick, $6,000; in Prince Edward Island, $1,000; while 24,000 Indians in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories cost $869,900. I wish the minister to pay particular attention to this statement. In British Columbia $148,000 was expended on the Indians and on the office in connection with the administration of the British Columbia Indians; in the Yukon district, $9,600 was expended; for general and miscellaneous, $13,000 was expended, making a total of $1,117,000 in addition to $346,000 from the Indian trust fund or a total expenditure of $1,524,000. In 1S95 the expenditure to consolidated fund on Indians was only $881,000 and from the Indian trust fund, $263,000, making a total of $1,114,000. The expenditure from consolidated fund on Indians in 1905 had risen to $1,177,000, giving an increase over 1895 in that branch of the work of $295,091. The expenditure from the trust fund in 1905 was $346,660 as against $263,000 in 1895, an increase in the 10 years of $83,000.
I wish I could impress upon the Minister of the Interior the importance of investigating these figures in connection with the administration of the Interior Department and the Indian trust fund. There is no excuse in the world for this large increase of expenditure which in 10 years has amounted to $378,665. I hope the'minister will be able to give us some definite knowledge of where this money has been going and what return we get for it. I think if the minister consults the official documents he must admit that there is no great improvement in the condition of the Indians in 1905 over 1S95. The report of the Indian Department shows that the general health of the Indian outside of tuberculosis is good and that the physicians have reported 20,220 cases of illness. But among this number there are 1.111 cases of toothache and some other of the most ridiculous things you could imagine a doctor re-Mr. ARMSTRONG.
porting on. Out of the leases reported, 3,167 were tuberculosis diseases, and yet I am satisfied the department has taken no active steps toward eradicating that disease or protecting the Indian children from contamination. I would like the minister to explain how it is that the physicians in charge of 41,000 Indians did not report at all in that year, although their salaries are going on just the same ? It is stated in the report that the agricultural pursuits show great improvement, that the live stock has increased. The returns from all sources would seem to show that the Indian is able to make himself sustaining if he is given the opportunity. The work of the missionaries has, I must say, done a great deal towards assisting the Indian race, but I believe the day is coming when we as a people will urge upon the Dominion government to take their wards from denominational schools and give them a free system of practical education that will be for the general benefit of the race. From a return I asked for on the 22nd of June, 1906,
I find there were no officials or school teachers employed by the government in the Ungava, Mackenzie and Franklin districts. The minister might tell us why that is! Hie question is whether we are going to carry civilization to the Indians or carry the Indians to civilization. Unless we take an active interest in them we cannot expect them to develop in civilization. Judging by the management of the Indian schools in the Dominion It is apparently the hope of the government to keep the Indians for all time in darkness. If the minister will look up the reports and follow up the work of the agents as carefully as I have done he will come to the conclusion that the Indian agents on the different reserves are largely keeping the Indians in the dark. The agents are anxious to keep the Indians in a position that they will not become citizens of this country so that these agents may not lose their positions. That may seem to be a very unfair statement to make, but I believe I can prove to the minister's own satisfaction that the agents are practically keeping the Indians in the position they are. The Canadian Indians are not making the advancement the United States Indians are. The Indian agents of the different districts of the United States will take 50 young men off a reserve and engage them to a railway contractor or on the public works of the United States. And they will stay with the Indians and get the best salary they can for them and see that they expend it properly and educate these Indians and make good citizens of them. In many Indian districts in the United States the police are largely Indians, and if the minister goes through the Indian districts of that country as I have he wiil see Indians worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, with beautiful brick homes and living in towns with streets and stores, and if

lie sees that as I have seen it he must conclude that the race is worthier of greater consideration than it is receiving at the hands of this government. The object of our Indian Department seems to be to increase the number of officials and to squander the money of the Indians and give them as little enlightenment as possible. The increase of the number of school teachers in charge of the Indian schools in 10 years was just one, and yet in every other direction there lias been an extravagant increase amounting to $340,000. It is only a year ago since prominent representatives of the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptist Churches called on the minister and urged on him the necessity of revolutionizing the system of education. Such men as Hon. Mr. Blake, Mr. Cassels, the Rev. Mr. Farrar, the Bishop of Moosonee, Bishop Holmes, Dr. Tucker, the general secretary of the Missionary Society of the Episcopal Church in Canada, made suggestions.


Mr. RALPH SMITH.: What was the suggestion of these gentlemen with regard to the education of the Indians?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I was not present when these representations were made, but the press reports indicated that they urged upon the minister the necessity of improvements in education and improvements in general in the western districts. I could show him from the newspaper reports of the day the speeches these gentlemgn made wherein they stated that the Indians in the west are in a deplorable state. I had a long interview with some of these representatives and one man said to me personally: If you want to see the result of the education of the Indian schools in the west go to the cemetery.


Ralph Smith: You ought to go to British Columbia and see for yourself.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I am s.tating nothing but facts and the hon. gentleman can try to refute them later on. These gentlemen said to me : The Indian boys and girls are not cared for in, these institutions as they should be; when the Indians leave the industrial school there is no place for them to go but to return to their old haunts and environments; the industrial school in Calgary has only 20 pupils. If the minister looks at the expense of that school he will find it is exorbitant in comparison with the number of pupils and the amount of care given them. There is no need of a school there. Too many hangers on is the cry from these men; the Indian industrial schools are a misnomer. This man told me that 50 per cent of the Indian children died from want of proper care, that from 2 to 5 children die in every family because of the ignorance of the parents. They suggested trained nurses should be sent to teach the mothers how to care for their children. They said the day schools at present were
a failure largely due to non-attendance; that numbers of these schools had only an average attendance of from l to 2 children. They said this state of affairs could be found in 300 of the day schools in the west. Does the member for Nanaimo (Mr. Ralph Smith) thiuk this is a condition of affairs that is going to civilize the Indians?


Ralph Smith: I want to tell the hon. gentleman that so far as he refers to the Indian schools in my district there is not a single word of correctness in his statements. They have first-class schools, they are treated in a first-class manner, and they are making wonderful improvement.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That may be in the hon. gentleman's district. I am well aware that the Indians of British Columbia have better care taken of them and have been making some advancement. But let the hon. gentleman take the Indian population all over the country and see what the result will be. I am merely quoting from the words of these gentlemen and if the minister would bring down the reports from the different agencies I would be able to back up the statements of these gentlemen. The teachers receive from $200 to $300 per year, and it is no wonder they give inefficient work. The minister knows the department has admitted that the teachers have no qualifications. The only qualifications required, as this man said, to teach the Indians in the west was that the teacher should be a supporter of the present government Compulsion is not used and half the schools would be closed to-day if people knew of the average attendance. The hon. gentleman from Nanaimo shakes his head, but if he will get outside of British Columbia and the district in which he lives


Ralph Smith: I am speaking for my own district. The hon. gentleman made special reference to the west, and I assume that British Columbia is in the west.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I didn't know British Columbia was the whole of the west.


Ralph Smith: It is a part of it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It is only a small part of it where these Indians are located. But I will show the hon. gentleman something that is going on in British Columbia.
I turned up the Auditor General's Report for the year 1907 and I find in the Fraser agency of British Columbia there are all kinds of expenses: Cross cut saws, 3, $27; British Columbia Telephone Company, rent of telephone, $3S; harness, $33; artificial arm, $76; cleaning of an Indian orchard, $400; grant to the industrial fair out of the Indian fund, $500; salary, nine months to IR. C. McDonald, $900, and he has an assistant-


Mr. KENNEDY.: Would the hon. gentleman say what is wrong with these expenditures in the Fraser agency?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Wait until I get through. Don't get excited, we have lots of time, we expect to be here all summer, and we might as well be happy and have a good time.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Judging from the position taken by the government within the last few weeks we cannot come to any other conclusion. They have been obstructing and interfering with the progress of legislation.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The statements I have made this morning are worthy of the serious consideration of this government, and I cannot think of any more rotten state of affairs than the management of the Indian affairs of this country. When you find how this government has squandered the lands of these poor wards of die nation and squandered their funds by careless and reckless management it is time the government were put out of office. Bet us go a little further with this Fraser agency- the salaries for nine months, McConnell, $900; his clerk, Nellie Macdonald, $450; salaries, physicians eight months from February 28th, W. D. Bryden-Jack, $800; C. A. Elliott, $500; R. F. Green, $333; Hall and Drew, $800; J. C. Henderson, $266; A. A. King, $200; A. J. Stewart, $333. I might go on to show the expenses of travelling of this man McDonald and the expense he is putting the people to. What do we find when we turn up the Indian report from the. same agency ? It distinctly states that the population of nine of these bands is 319, and it says:
Their health during the year has been good. They kept their villages in a sanitary condition and most of them have been vaccinated.


Mr. MACPHERSON.: Does my hon. friend say that in the Fraser river agency there are only 319 Indians?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is the statement made on page 207 of the report of the Department of Indian Affairs for 1907 :
The total population of these nine bands is 319.
These are the bands in the Chilliwack district of the Fraser river agency.


Robert George Macpherson: That is simply a small district in the Fraser river agency.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I eould go on and show that in the other districts of the Fraser river agency there is the same condition of affairs.


Robert George Macpherson: Does my hon. friend mean to say that the doctors receive Mr. ARMSTRONG;
their remuneration from that band of Indians in the Chilliwack district?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the hon. gentleman had kept his nerves for a little while he would not have interrupted, pi was going on to say that the report says that the rest of the Indians in the Fraser river agency are in the best of health, and that everything is satisfactory.


Robert George Macpherson: My hon. friend has not answered my question.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I might go into other matters in regard to the Indians in British Columbia. For instance, $10,000 is spent in the Victoria office alone for the management of 20,000 odd Indians.


Ralph Smith: I understood that the hon. gentleman's general complaint was that there Was not sufficient spent on the Indians.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The hon. gentleman must be very dense, for the statements I have made seem to have made very little impression upon him. The hon. gentleman will find on page J-55 of the Auditor General's Report for 1907 that the salaries paid in the Victoria office were $18,000, while the expenditure on relief to the Indians amounted to only $5,700, and that the seed the Indians got amounted to only $772, while the medical attendance and medicine amounted to $15,204. For salaries and medical attendance $35,000 was paid. The money spent on officials and medical attendance amounted to a great deal more than the Indians received. The statements I have made go to show that instead of the Indians receiving any great advantage, their funds are being handled in the most extravagant manner.


Ralph Smith: Is my hon. friend against the principle of making the Indians self-supporting?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: No. What is my whole argument, but an attempt to show that the Indians are capable of being selfsupporting, and that this government is not conducting their affairs in a way to make them self-supporting? The hon. gentleman is thinking only of his own little district.


Ralph Smith: One-fourth of the Indians in British Columbia are in my district.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How does it come that in a district which covers 1.040 reserves, with only 25,000 Indians, there is such wonderful advancement in the way of education and civilization as the hon. gentleman wishes to lead us to believe there is among the Indians of the province of British Columbia ?


Ralph Smith: I want to say that the only real gentlemen we have in our district, the men who ride around in

coaches, are Indians, while the white men do the work. There are no class of men in my district who are so well treated or who have such good times as the Indians.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That is only an argument in favour of the position I am taking, that the Indian is capable of being civilized. If the Indians of British Columbia could see the manner in which the Indians of other provinces are treated, they would come to the conclusion that this government is doing very little to assist them ; and were it not for the assistance that the churches are giving to the Indians of British Columbia they would not be up to their present standard.


Ralph Smith: We appreciate it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Let the hon. minister take into consideration the fact that while these Indians, as a whole, have property worth over $32,000,000, people in the different churches of this country are going around begging money and clothing and the wherewithal to keep these Indians. The churches of this country are being taxed to an enormous extent in their efforts to get reasonable assistance for these people and to care for them in their schools.


Ralph Smith: Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that the financial contributions of the churches of this country are towards the material maintenance of the Indians-their clothing and food?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Certainly.


Ralph Smith: The hon. gentleman does not know the first thing about it. The churches contribute simply towards their religious teaching.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the hon. gentleman will go to the Presbyterian church, or any of the other churches in the city of Ottawa, and ask their pastors he will find that they do take up collections every year for the Indians-their clothing and everything.


An hon. MEMBER.: In British Columbia?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: There are other parts of the country than British Columbia in which these Indians are to be educated. However, I will go on with the statement I was making. I was quoting from an interview which I had with some men from that western country who had visited the east. As I said, compulsion was not used. Half the schools would be closed to-day if the people knew the average attendance. An estimate given of the daily average attendance in dozens of these schools only amounted to half a pupil. Think of it- only half a pupil, and then expect the Indians to grow and develop. Salaries are paid by this government to teachers, and no inquiry is made as to their qualifications. Perhaps the hon. member for Nanaimo can
tell us of the qualifications of the Indian teachers in the Northwest Territories?


Ralph Smith: I can only speak for Britisu Columbia.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The bishop of Kee-watin has closed twelve schools for nonattendance. Thousands of dollars are spent in the building of schools and equipping them, and no apparent energetic effort is made to enlighten the Indians in many of these districts. These men stated that the industrial schools were carried on in a most expensive way, and little good resulted to the Indians from the manner in which they were at present conducted. Their own words were : ' Men who cannot get a living at anything else are made teachers.' They urged that all the Indian children, after leaving the industrial schools, should be taken from their old environment and protected. In the province of British Columbia, if they are allowed to go back among their own people-and the member for Nanaimo (Mr. Ralph Smith), I am sure, will agree with me-they cannot advance in the direction of civilization as they would if they were taken away from their people. These children should be protected ; they should be followed to see that the white man does not take advantage of them. Why not place the Indians on a farm, or do as they do in the United States, take a number of young Indians and give them work in factories, on railroads and in other occupations. These men also informed me that one of the greatest curses that ever happened to the Indians in the west was the sale of their scrip. Let the hon. member for Nanaimo consider the amount of this scrip and the manner in which it was squandered. The Indian was given $25 or $50 of scrip, and then the whisky dealers and the traders were allowed to go among them, and between them they soon had the poor Indian's money.


Mr. WILBERT McINTYRE.: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Armstrong) will allow me ; it is news to me that the Indians of the Northwest Territories ever received scrip. If the hon. gentleman is confident that the Indians, at any time ever received scrip he has information that no other person in this House has.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does not the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilbert McIntyre) remember the debate in this House upon the scrip to the Indians given in lieu of their lands ?


Wilbert McIntyre: The hon. member is confusing the half-breeds with the Indians. The half-breeds received scrip it is true, but the hon. gentleman is trying to impress upon us the idea that the Indians received it. There may have been instances of Indians who got themselves classified as half-breeds, and received scrip. But that is an entirely different matter. Such Indians would not rate as Indians thereafter, nor

would they be regarded as wards of the government. If the hon. gentleman is stating anything contrary to that, he is stating something that is absolutely an error.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: So far as the Indians and half-breeds are concerned, there is no such wonderful lot of difference. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilbert McIntyre) knows that. The half-breeds did receive the scrip as I have stated. These gentlemen to whom I have referred went on to tell me how the government officials of the Indian Department in the western country were used in the Dominion and provincial elections, devoting their whole time and energy to keeping in power this government and the governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta. I am satisfied that the hon. member for Strathcona (Mr. Wilbert McIntyre) will not deny that. He will admit that, so far as the Indian agents in the western country are concerned, they take an active part in the elections both Dominion and provincial.


Wilbert McIntyre: Does the hon. gentleman know that the Indians in the west have no vote ?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I am aware of that. But it is the agents I am referring to-* they have not only votes but influence, and they devote their time and attention to election work. If the hon. gentleman, had listened to my statement, he would have heard that there were some 212-I think it was

Indian officials in Manitoba


Mr. S. J. JACKSON.: Is the hon. gentleman (Mr. Armstrong) aware that he has included in that number all the officers in the Indian Commissioner's office, and that the Indian Commissioner has charge of not only Manitoba, but the Northwest Territories and also Ontario as far east as the Great Lakes ? Yet, the hon. gentleman has charged all these salaries to Manitoba.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The facts I have stated, have been icollected from replies given by the Minister of the Interior to questions I have asked from time to time.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: They are not right.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The hon. gentleman himself admits that there are 212 officials in Manitoba. The only thing we can do is to explain that their duties cover a wider territory than Manitoba-


Samuel Jacob Jackson: I do not admit anything of the kind. I have not verified the hon. gentleman's statement.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Then, he' does not know anything about it.


Samuel Jacob Jackson: I do. I know that there are not 219 in Manitoba.


Ralph Smith: Take it back.


Wilbert McIntyre: 


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It is not for me to take anything back. I have only collected the facts given by the Minister of the Interior himself. As I have said before, the object of the government's policy and methods is to keep the Indians in the dark. And that is the cry of the official : Keep things as they are ; if we educate and civilize the Indian, we lose our jobs. And this also is the cry of the department. Compare, if you will, the position of the Indian in Canada and the way be is treated, with the position of the Indian in the United States, especially in regard to the sale of Indian lands and the leasinsr of coal and timber areas on Indian reserves. Compare the money that is received by the Indians on our side with that which goes to the Indians of the United States, and the blush of shame should come to the cheek of every man who allows this condition of affairs to continue.
The lowest amount contributed by the department towards the salaries of teachers of Indian schools, according to a statement of the Minister of the Interior, is $125 per annum. Teachers receiving this grant are in denominational schools, and the religious bodies which conduct them supplement the departmental grant. Out of the 228 day schools, 1S2 are denominational. And yet the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Ralph Smith) would lead us to believe that the denominations are not taking an active part in the help of the Indians. Now, I have here the regulations relating to the education of the Indian children. I do not intend to take up time by reading these regulations. I cite them merely to show that they do not compel a standard of education in any of the schools, and that numbers of the schools are not investigated at ail by the agents-in effect, the schools are not regulated at all so far as the standards and teaching are concerned. From what I can learn, this is left entirely to the agents of the different districts. One agent may take an active part in seeing to it that the Indians in his district are receiving a reasonable and fair education. There are districts in Ontario, for instance, where the Indian schools are giving advanced education. But I make the statement that in many of the western provinces and eastern provinces also, no special regard is given to the Indian schools.


Wilbert McIntyre: The hon. gentleman is speaking of something of which I have personal knowledge, the Indian schools of the west, the day schools particularly. He would give the impression that the denominational schools are not public schools. I would inform him that the denominational school is the public school of the reserve, irrespective of the religious denomination of the people of the reserve. But the departmental machinery in connection with the reserve works in concert with the denomination in order that the services

of the right man for the work may be utilized.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilbert McIntyre) has the right to speak by permission of the hon. member (Mr. Armstrong) who has the floor.


Wilbert McIntyre: They work in concert with some denomination in order that that denomination may have the right of securing a suitable man to act as teacher. The hon. gentleman will readily understand that to secure a suitable teacher on an Indian reserve is a very delicate matter, and it is quite within the jurisdiction of the church to choose suitable men for that work.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I appreciate what the hon. gentleman says and I made the same remark, that as far as the denominations are concerned, they have been doing a noble and good work in connection with the Indians, but there is a time, and there is no doubt in my mind that as far as the denominational schools are concerned the time has come, when the Indian should be taken out of these denominational schools, given superior education and assisted materially towards his general advancement and welfare. Even in Ontario we find the Six Nation Indians coming to the synod in London and asking for higher education.
The delegates were Messrs. Jacob Miller, president Six Nations Rights Association, and David S. Hill, and both spoke clearly and with force, and applause greeted them constantly.
They asked for more stringent laws to put the youngsters at school and facilities for high school education, as the laws of the province shut them out from the Ontario high schools.
They asserted that many of the Indians had outlived their present system of education, and they wanted something better, and they were willing to pay the government for it.
They also asked recognition on the same terms as the white people, as they believed the teachings of Christianity taught all believers. Applause greeted this statement.
The Six Nations have ten schools in Brant county, which are maintained by the interest on their own funds held in trust by the Dominion government, which refused to grant the Indians' request in March last. The deputation now waited upon the synod as representative Canadians, feeling that further protests to the government would be unavailing, coming as they would from voteless Indians.
The three things they ask for are: First, the adoption of the Ontario programme of studies in their schools; second, the engaging of qualified teachers, and third, proper inspection by regular county inspectors.
Bishop Williams responded to their speeches and assured them that they were regarded on perfectly even terms. He was pained to learn, he said, that the Canadian government was not giving them the educational facilities they required. He declared his willingness to help them and asked the synod if a committee should be appointed to communicate with the I government. His question was answered with 1 350
thunderous applause, and the motion was carried unanimously.
Are these reasonable or unfair requests to make? The minister and his department have had them placed before them time and again and the Minister of Customs (Mr. Paterson) knows full well that in that country the Indians are anxious to make better progress. There are two reserves in my own riding and there is not a doubt in my own mind that if these men were given proper educational facilities and looked after in a proper manner they would become civilized and take the positions that Indians are now taking in the United States. Up to 1901 there were in the United States, 16,000 Indians who had become civilized citizens of the United States and 4,000 Indians in addition who were under probation or had received their lands in such a way that in a few years they would become citizens. Of course the minister may say : We will give the Indians their lands, they are allowed to become citizens. But he knows that the treatment these Indians are receiving, the manner in which their schools are conducted and their funds administered, have not been for the general advancement of the Indians and are not likely to bring him to take the civilized position he has taken in the United States.
Let us look for a moment at some statements made by Mr. Frank Pedley, Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, who was brought before the Public Accounts Committee and answered questions in reference to the manner in the affairs of these Indians are managed. I have here a newspaper report which reads :
Frank Pedley. Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, was examined as to the policy of the department in purchasing cattle, Some 1,400 or 1,500 head of cattle, mostly young animals, are bought every year to put on the Indian reserves. They are bought without tender, and at prices named by officials in the Northwest. Mr. Pedley gave as an explanation of the large purchases in the east the statement that ranchers in the west did not wish to part with their young female stock. He would neither affirm nor deny that in all such purchases regard was had to political patronage.
Mr. Foster endeavoured to refresh the witness' memory. ' Is E. Devlin, of Ottawa, a partv supporter ? ' he asked.
' Well, he has the reputation of being one,' was the reply.
Mr. Devlin was in 1904 given an order for 222 two-year old cattle, at $30 per head, delivered in Calgary. Mr. Pedley had made no inquiry as to what it would cost per head to land cattle at Calgarv, and would be surprised, he said to hear that it could be done for $3.50 each. He did not know that young cattle could be bought around Ottawa for $15 or $16 per head.
Mr. Foster could not get the witness to express an opinion either as to whether it would not be better to purchase the cattle in the



west than to distribute the patronage among the eastern friends of the party at a profit of from $8 to $10 for each animal sold to the government.
This is only one instance of the carelessness of even the Superintendent of Indian Affairs in the handling of the funds and the squandering of money in the purchasing of supplies. Seeing in the Auditor General's Report the exorbitant prices paid for those supplies, you cannot but believe that the department is run in a very careless and reckless manner. I asked the minister a number of questions in connection with this on May 14, 1906. My question and the minister's reply were :
1. Have complaints been made by Indians as to the studies _ prescribed by the Department of Indian Affairs in their schools? If so, what is the nature of said complaints?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior) :: 1.	Yes. An organization calling itself the Six ^Nations Rights Association has comnlain-ed of the curriculum prescribed by the department, and anonymous communications have appeared in the Haldimand ' Banner,' addressed to the president of the Rights Association, protesting against the department's programme of studies and asking that the provincial programme be substituted therefor.
I would ask the minister why it is that when these Indians have been coming not only before the synod in London, but before the synod in Hamilton and other parts of the province as well, he does not appreciate the fact that they are anxious to make advancement towards civilization and does not give them every opportunity he possibly can in that respect. The Indians not only of Ontario, but of the whole Dominion should be accorded every possible facility for advancement. Another question I asked was :
2.	What qualifications are required by this government of teachers in Indian schools?
And the minister answered :
2. Third class at least, or equal thereto, when obtainable.
.. What can you make out of a statement like that? That is the class of teachers who are placed in the Indian schools throughout our country and we cannot expect any result different from what we have witnessed. I also asked :
How many qualified teachers are engaged in the schools on the Indian reserves in Ontario?
To this the minister replied :
Thirty-eight, according to the public and separate school inspectors' reports.
I asked :
Is the public school curriculum used in any of the schools on the Indian reserves in the province of Ontario? If so, on what reserves?
The minister replied :
i. All Indian schools are directed to follow the departmental programme of studies, al-Mr. ARMSTRONG.
though where pupils are preparing for high school entrance or other examination, the additional subjects necessary are allowed to be taught.
What are the departmental regulations? I defy the minister to take up the regulations and to show us any regulation that will come up to anything like the standing in our public schools in Ontario. He also stated :
Indian schools are a charge on the federal government, with the exception of 28 in Ontario, which are paid from band funds.
To another question asked by the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster), the minister gave this answer:
The answer to that question, as I read it is, that no returns are received as to the number of Indian pupils who have passed the entrance examination to the high school, and therefore we are not able to answer that part of the question.
The minister practically admits that even in the province of Ontario the Indians are not able to get into the high schools, owing to the quality of the schools maintained by the Indian Department.
At one o'clock, House took recess.
House resumed at three o'clock.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Mr. Speaker, I owe you an apology or an explanation. My attention was called to the fact that it was one o'clock. I said that I wished to close my remarks, but my statement was apparently misunderstood by you. I am sure that we all appreciate your consideration of the members of the opposition. I can only say that we have always been treated in tlie fairest and kindest way by you, and I would be the last one to wish to interfere in any way with your right.
However, when I closed at one o'clock I was calling attention to the position of the schools in the Indian districts. I do not expect to take up a great deal more time with that part of the question, because there are other very important subjects to refer to, but I will refer briefly to a few facts that appear in the United States blue books in connection with the way that the schools are conducted there. Referring to page 87, ' Acts of the 55th Congress,' first session, 1897, chapter 3, I find the following :
And it is hereby declared to be the settled policy of the government to hereafter make no appropriation whatever for education in any sectarian school.
Volume 1, Statutes, Indian Affairs :
The United States have a force of Indians) 1,000 in number, who act as scouts in the territories and Indian country and receive the pay and allowance of cavalry officers.
On page 45, House Documents, volume 19, will be found the following :

The complex nature of the Indian schools requires a large force of efficient employees to look properly after the moral and material' welfare of the thousands of children enrolled. The following list of those employed during the year will be of interest.
I simply desire to refer to this list for the purpose of showing the House that a large number of the people who are employed in the Indian schools of the United States are Indians themselves and that they have been educated in order to fit them for these positions.
Supervisors, 7 white; superintendents. 117 white and 1 Indian; assistant superintendents, It white and 1 Indian: clerks, 56 white and 18 Indian; physicians, 29 white and 1 Indian; disciplinarians, 23 white and 13 Indian; teachers. 450 white and 50 Indian: kindergartners, 41 white and 1 Indian; manual training teacher, 1 white; matrons and housekeepers, 215 white and 37 Indian; assistant matrons. 116 white and 49 Indian; nurses, 31 white and 2 Indian; seamstresses, 113 white and 43 Indian; laundresses, 88 white and 59 Indian; industrial teachers, 68 white and 34 Indian; cooks and bakers, 144 white and 73 Indian; farmers, 50 white and 13 Indian; blacksmiths and carpenters, 65 white and 19 Indian; engineers, 55 white and 27 Indian; tailors, 9 white and 6 Indian; shoe and harness makers, 16 white and 20 Indian; gardeners, 19 white and 6 Indian ; dairy men, 7 white; Indian assistants, 44; superintendents of industries, 3 white; teachers of agriculture, 6 white; day school inspectors. 3 white; miscellaneous positions. 68 white and 85 Indian; total, 2,416, being 1,814 white and 602 Indian.
I have merely read this to call the attention of the minister to the fact that the Indians in these schools are employed as assistants and that they are able to earn a considerable amount of money in that way. Page 51 of the report gives a summary of the Indian schools and the attendance for the last twenty-nine years. I do not wish to go into this any more than to present the figures given in the following statement :
Year.	Boarding school.	Average | attendance.	Day school.	Average attendance.	Total schools.	Total average attendance.1882	
1905	71 167	3,077 21,812	76 146	1,637 3,643	147 312	4,714 25,455
At page 171 of the same report I find the following statement :
There were 826 pupils enrolled in the Phoenix school during the year, the average attendance being 720.
I am placing this on record as an argument that the Indians can be gathered together in the principal schools and can be given a more thorough education.
350*
These pupils came from four states andf three territories, 35 tribes being represented. Eighty-four per cent of the pupils are full blood, and 82 per cent of all are from Arizona, considering the Navaho as belonging ex clusively to this territory.
The resume of the report contains the following :
There has been a steady increase during the past seven years in school enrolment and attendance. The average attendance has risen from 19,915 in 1898 to 25,104 in 1904, and the ratio of attendance to enrolment from 81 per cent in 1898 to 85 per cent last year. While the number of schools remain about the same, their capacity has been enlarged from 25,944 to 29,161.	'
Now, that is practically all I have to say in connection with the schools as they are conducted at the present time.
I think the manner in which supplies are purchased for the Indian schools of the United States is a subject which is worthy of our consideration. I quote as follows:
An important part of the business of the Indian office which attracts little public attention is the purchase of supplies necessary to meet the demands of the service. This is done annually, and the labour and responsibility involved are greater than would be guessed at a first glance. Estimates are sent in by the several agents and superintendents in the early spring of the things that they will need to carry on their operations for the coming year. These are tabulated, and then advertisement is made for bids to furnish the articles called for. The classification of the things bought and their approximate cost may be seen in the statistics of the fiscal year 1905, which are given here in round numbers for convenience of study.
It goes on to show how, in purchasing 81,700,000 worth of supplies for the Indians of the United States, public tenders are invited in the most public manner possible. Altogether these supplies embrace 2,673 items and, without quoting the number of the different kinds of supplies, the report proceeds :
Bids for these articles were opened this year as follows

It gives a list of the districts in which they were opened and the number of bids that were received :
The number of bids received were as follows: Chicago, 460; St. Louis, 70; New York, 72; Washington, 102; San Francisco, 75; total, 779.
The report continues :	__
When we consider the number of bids offered, their tabulation and arrangement, the comparison of samples, which sometimes number as many as a dozen different makes of one article, and the precautions necessary to prevent the expert judges from knowing the identity of any bidder, it will be seen that the work involves a great amount of clerical and other labour and not a little time.

I might call the attention of the minister to the maimer in which their coal and oil lands and gas fields are being operated, the splendid business methods which are adopted in the management of the whole of their lands and the large amounts that are received from these sources in the United States. I will only just refer in particular to one aspect of this subject. The total_ amount collected is about $2,000,000 and the amount collected from oil, coal, gas and the different industries that are being operated in the different Indian districts in that country represents millions of dollars which are applied to the Indian fund. This government has disposed of 620,000 acres of Indian lands for $1,500,000. I am safe in saying that over 500,000 acres of these lands were disposed of either by private sale or at an upset price fixed by the Indian Department which is practically the same as a private sale. However, a small portion of these lands was disposed of at public auction and when we compare the prices received at public auction with those obtained at private sale it must convince any man that the Indian lands are being administered in a most unfair manner to the Indians. I have before me a statement as to 550,000 acres of Indian lands disposed of, giving the date, the lot, the concession, the township, the acreage, and the price per acre. I have given a great deal of attention to this matter but time will not permit me to review more than a couple of these instances. One of these statements shows the sale of Indian lands in the counties of Bruce and Grey since 1896, which were disposed of by the local agent resident at Wiarton at private sale or at an upset price fixed by the department; and I find that some of these lands were disposed of for 10 cents, 15 cents and 20 cents an acre, which is a ridiculously small sum. Page 10 of this statement gives part of the sales in that district and on one page I find 26 lots ranging from 23 acres to over 100 acres and sold at 10 cents an acre, three lots sold at 15 cents an acre, two lots sold at 20 cents an acre and one lot at 25 cents an acre.


Mr. MIDLER.: What is the date of these sales?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Since 1896. I have also a statement of the islands disposed of in Lake Huron and here is one island of 15 acres and 62 perches sold for $90 and there are four or five islands in that group. In the township of Esnor there were three islands consisting of 253 acres sold at ten cents an acre. I have also a statement as to the islands sold in the St. Lawrence and without detaining the House to enumerate them I may say that the result of my investigation leads me to believe that the government committed a great injustice towards the Indians when they sold these islands at private sales at an upset price fixed by the department. It is surprising!


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: to see the number of ladies who have purchased islands in the River St. Lawrence which leads me to think that the men must have been ashamed of placing their names on the list. I have here a similiar statement with regard to the islands in the Georgian Bay district between Penetan-guishene and Moose Deer Point which have been sold by private sale since 1896 or at upset prices fixed by the department, and dozens of islands have been disposed of at one dollar apiece. One man received 76 islands comprising 78 acres for $1,371. In the same way with the islands in Stoney lake near Peterborough where 21 acres were sold for $60, 22 acres for $50, and so on.


An hon. MEMBER,: How were they sold?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: By the local agent at upset prices fixed by the department. If any hon. gentleman wishes to investigate these cases I can give him the details here. Then, as regards leases of coal lands in the Indian districts of the Northwest I believe the minister has not been giving his attention to this matter, because the sum received for these leases is only a paltry amount compared with what one would expect should be received. If we compare the prices obtained for these lands with the splendid prices received for similar lands sold by the Ontario government I cannot help but feel that the affairs of the Indian Department have not been conducted in a business-like and straightforward manner. I know that there are thousands of acres of Indian lands yet to be disposed of. I understand that there are to-day 300,000 or 400,000 acres of Indian lands which the Minister of the Interior can dispose of at almost any time ;- and when I see these lands being disposed of in the manner in which they have been, and the Indian schools conducted in the manner in which they have been conducted, and see the expense creeping up year by year with no great advantage to the Indian population of our country, I cannot help feeling that this government have been most negligent in conducting Indian affairs. Now, I do not wish to take up any more time.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Hon. gentlemen say ' hear, hear.' I have no doubt that they are quite ready and willing to say ' hear, hear,' in regard to the disposal of the properties belonging to the wards of this nation; but, Sir, let them do as I have done during the last two years, investigate this Indian Department, and they will conclude with me that the manner in which that department is administered is a blot on the fair name of our Dominion.


Mr. DUNCAN ROSS.: Why does the hon. gentleman not give the result of the investigation?



Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How much more result does the hon. gentleman want? Does he think it is a joke to dispose of 620,000 acres of the Indian lands of this country for a song-large quantities sold by private sale at prices fixed by the department? Does he think it is a joke to squander the Indian islands in the manner in which they have been squandered? Does he think it a joke to conduct .the Indian schools in the manner in which they have been conducted? If he will give this department the thorough investigation that I have given it, he cannot help feeling not only that the rights of the Indians have been taken away from them, but that their lands, their mines, their schools, and practically everything in which they are concerned, have been managed in a" loose and careless manner, and not for the general advancement of the Indians as a whole.


Frank Oliver: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the House is indebted to the hon. gentleman for the information which he has given it as a result of his two years' research, and notwithstanding the assertion of my hon. friend, I think it will be admitted, so far as proofs are concerned, the Indian Department has come through the ordeal with every reason for gratification. Those who have followed my hon. friend's remarks throughout will agree that in no case did he make a statement that he did not after-v'nrris contradict; so that balancing the contradiction against the statement we come out fairly well. However, the administration of Indian affairs in this country is an important question.


Samuel Hughes: Perhaps the minister, in all fairness to my hon. friend from Lambton, will substantiate his statement by giving just one instance of the many in which he says the hon. member contradicted himself.


Frank Oliver: Perhaps the hon. member will allow me to do as I allowed the hon. member for Lambton to do, that is to say, to make his own statements and trust to the judgment of the House for their being received at their proper value. If my statements are not correct, I assume that the intelligence of the House will reject them, and if they are correct, I assume that the intelligence of the House will receive them.
I was about to say that the administration of Indian affairs in Canada is a very important question, one that calls for a great deal of consideration and requires a great deal of expenditure. It is a matter that may very well receive from the House more attention than it does receive, and I have no fault whatever to find with my hon. friend for having made a study of the question during the past two years or for having given the House the benefit of
his conclusions. I am, however, within my right in stating my view of those conclusions.
I appreciate the view expressed by my hon. friend that one great lack in respect of the Indian administration is a minister who knows something about the department. I accept the criticism in the spirit in which it was given, and shall have to leave the question of the merits of the criticism also to the judgment of the House.
I would like to say, however, in my own defence, that having assumed a responsibility in connection with the Department of Indian Affairs, I have done my best, so far as my limited ability and time and opportunity allowed, to discharge that responsibility honourably and creditably, for the benefit of the Indians and the welfare of the country. That I am not familiar with every detail of the administration of that department I will freely admit; and I will go further and assert that were my hon. friend in my place, let him be as earnest as he pleases, I think the statements which he has placed before the House to-day are ample evidence that he would not be any more familiar than I am, if he were nearly as familiar, with the details of that department. If I could gather anything from the criticism of my hon. friend, it was that because it costs more to administer the Indian affairs for one part of the country, in proportion to the number of Indians, than it does for another part of the country, therefore there was either incompetence and waste on the one hand, or niggardliness and want of regard for the interests of the Indians on the other hand. I can only say that such a statement placed before an intelligent assembly does no credit to the study that my hon. friend has given to the subject; because if there is one thing that is more marked than another in connection with the Department of Indian Affairs, it is the wide difference that exists between the conditions prevailing in one part of the country and among one set of Indians from those prevailing in another part and among another set. So that the comparisons which my hon. friend has made are absolutely without meaning or purpose or reason. It will be admitted that the condition amongst Indians who have never seen the face of a white man, as is the case with some Indians in Canada, must differ very radically from those amongst Indians who for generations have lived in the midst of white men, surrounded by and necessarily subject to all the conditions of civilization. Yet my hon. friend has undertaken to draw a comparison between the expenditures on these two classes of Indians. There is no comparison between them. However, let me deal more in particular with the conditions. For instance, in the maritime provinces and in Quebec, the occupation of the country

by white people was established without arrangement with the Indians-that is, the Indians were simply forced back. The treatment of the Indians by the whites, as handed down from times past, is on the basis of mere concession; they have been displaced from the country at large and are dealt with as-I do not use the word offensively-as merely a class of poor whites. They are, to a certain extent, dealt with as paupers. Coming west into Ontario, we find that the Indians have been dealt with on a very different basis. There the Indian was not dispossessed of his country as in the maritime provinces and Quebec, but gave up his lands under treaty, which treaty secured to him certain rights and considerations, required the payment to him of certain annuities, and gave him the title to certain lands to be occupied by him or to be sold for his benefit. And not only is there a difference in treatment between the Indians of Ontario and those of the country to the east of Ontario, but there is a radical difference in this respect between certain portions of the Indian population of Ontario itself. For instance, the Six Nations, who were really natives of what is now the United States came as immigrants into the province of Ontario and settled there almost as a free nation, allies of the British Crown. The treatment of these people necessarily differs from that of those who were natives of what is now the province of Ontario and with whom treaty was made for the surrender of a part of their lands. Going further west to the prairie country, we find that the principle of surrender, treaty payment and the holding of reserve lands by inalienable right prevails throughout that whole country, and extends into the northern and wooded country as far as treaties have extended. But to the north of that and between that and the Arctic zone, there remains an area, approximately one-third of the Dominion of Canada in which no arrangement whatever has been made with the Indians, and in which, so far as we can see at the present time, there is no prospect of settlement that would interfere with the Indians. Across the mountains of the Pacific slope, the Indians are in a different position from that prevailing anywhere east of the mountains. Some treaties were made with local bands of Indians in the early days, when British Columbia was a Crown colony. Other treaties have been made since. But in British Columbia the right of the Indian to the land in his reserve is not conceded as an absolute right by the provincial government, as the right of the Indian to the land in his reserve is conceded as an absolute right everywhere east of the Rocky Mountains.
Now, these are very varied obligations of the government towards the Indians in these different parts of the country, and these differences of obligation call for differences of treatment. There is, besides, the differ-Mr. OLIVER.
ence of condition. My hon. friend (Mr. Armstrong) stated, concerning one band of Indians in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, that a certain amount had been paid for medical attendance and a certain amount as salaries to officials. In Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, the Indians are in very small bands, and wandering bands, in very few cases located permanently in certain places. The Indian agents there are people engaged in some other occupation who receive a small salary for looking after the interests of the particular Indians in their immediate vicinity. The same general conditions prevail in regard to medical attendance. In Quebec, the condition is somewhat the same, and yet different, because the greater number of Indians of that province are non-treaty Indians. Only a comparatively small number of Indians in Quebec are close to civilization; and those who are close to civilization are practically surrounded by the evidences and influences of civilization and are governed by these conditions. In Ontario, as I have said, some Indians are settled, and have been settled for generations, in the midst of civilization, and surrounded by civilized conditions where education is readily available and every advantage of civilization may be received. On the other hand there are other Indians in Ontario, and thousands of them, who only see a white man once or twice a year and who are no more in touch with civilization or civilizing influences to-day than they were two hundred years ago. The Indians of the prairie country have conditions that are peculiar. The settlement of the country and ihe change in the condition of the Indians came about with such suddenness, and was so radical, as to make the conditions of dealing with them absolutely different from those which exist in Ontario or any of the provinces of the east. It is within my personal knowledge, since I became a resident of that country. When I first took up my residence there, the Indian of the plains was the richest man in the world; he had everything he wanted and he owned everything in sight. To-day, the Indian of that same country-that same Indian, in fact-by reason of the change of circumstances, is in a pauperized condition, in a erudition which, to him at any rate, seems the limit of despair. And. because of that rapid change in the condition of the Indian of the plains, a greater obligation has rested upon this government in dealing with them than upon the government in dealing with the Indians of any other part of the country. Then, in British Columbia, the approach of civilization has not altered the conditionn of Indian life there to the extent that it has altered it in the country east of the mountains. The Indians of British Columbia, where civilization has touched them, have adapted themselves more to that civilization. So, here again, we find the conditions radi-

cally different from wliat they are in other parts of the country. It appears that the Indians of British Columbia are more capable of civilization, that they more naturally take to the ways of white people than other Indians do. They work for wages; they live in houses ; they have a fixed place of abode-things entirely contrary to the ideas and traditions of the Indians east of the mountains. In the thousand valleys of British Columbia, these Indians have had their homes from time immemorial, each little band in its own valley, having its own means of livelihood. And. when arrangements were made with the Indians in order that the white people might have peaceable possession of the country, does my hon. friend suggest that it was improper to allow these people to remain in the valleys where they and their fathers had lived for untold generations; that they should be permitted to live there according to conditions they understood, where they would not be, as thev are not dependent on any one but could make their living in their own way. It seems to me my hon. friend has an absolute lack of comprehension of the conditions surrounding Indian life throughout the Dominion of Canada.
My hon. friend drew attention to the increased expenditure in connection with Indians not under treaty, that is to say in the vast north country where we have no treaty with the Indians and no treaty obligations towards them. At the same time we have no treaty obligations as I understand with the Indians of the Yukon or the maritime provinces, but these people are in a way citizens of Canada. It is well known to those who are acquainted with the life of the hunter that years of plenty and years of scarcity succeed each other in cycles, that after a series of years of plenty come a series of years of scarcity and the Indian, by reason of his way of life, does not provide in his years of plenty for the years of scarcity. So, in the years of scarcity it is a case of the survival of the fittest and there is starvation in that great northern country amongst those Indians. It has seemed right to the government that under those circumstances the great trading company. the Hudson's Bay Company, which has trading posts and the only supplies in that country should be asked to see that the Indians do not starve. Thus, in this year we will say of scarcity, there has been a large expenditure in that country to save from starvation the Indians who were the first inhabitants and who are the only inhabitants to-day. My hon. friend objects apparently to that expenditure. We stand
convicted

	,


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I do not think the minister wishes to put into my mouth something I did not say. The statement I made in regard to increased expenditure on Indians outside of treaty was simply that in
1895 only $2,000 or $3,000 was expended on these Indians, that amount gradually increased until 1904, when the minister was spending $26,000, and that has been largely increased from what the minister states. I was not objecting to the Indians receiving the benefit from this, but from the information I obtained and the knowledge I had of the disposal of this money, I did make the statement that it was expended in a very unwise and unfair way towards the Indians -and in a reckless way too.


Frank Oliver: Aside from the assistance that is given to certain Indian schools in that country that is outside of treaty all the expenditure that is made is made under the circumstances which I have stated to the House, under circumstances of stress and necessity. We are not in control of those circumstances of stress and necessity, we cannot say beforehand when they are to occur, we fervently hope they will not occur, but the best we can do is that when they occur they shall be met according to the dictates of common humanity.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister make sure that these are always cases that arise in the interest of humanity or does it sometimes happen that a trader having a bad account against an Indian secures payment of his account during the winter under the guise of charity? What mode of inspection has the minister to make sure that the cases are all meritorious?


Mr OLIVER.: 
Mr SAM. HUGHES.: There are others than the Hudson Bay Company, many others.


Frank Oliver: We have to trust then to the honesty of these others to a certain extent and while as it appears to me we have to trust to some extent to the honesty of the Hudson Bay Company-and why should not another man be as honest as the Hudson Bay Company in such a case-there is no other recourse. If my hon. friend takes the position that we must show vouchers and evidence of actual honesty in all these cases, we will simplv be compelled to refuse the assistance. That is the choice that is before us, there is no use assuming or professing that there is some other choice.


Samuel Hughes: Can the minister name a settlement of any importance in the northern regions where there is not a gov-

ernment official, a mounted police officer, a clergyman or a person of some standing -who would be neutral ? The minister knows there is not such a place and he has heard, as other members have, that even persons connected with the parliament of Canada have engaged in handing out things to Indians under conditions which would bear considerable scrutiny.


Frank Oliver: We are here in parliament and 'there is a Public Accounts Committee whose -services are available in all these cases; the accounts of the Indian Department are audited by the Auditor General, they are subject to the scrutiny of parliament. If there is such a complaint as the hon. gentleman makes this is not the right time or place to make it, and if he has failed so far there is still an opportunity to question any of these payments and expenditures. The Indian Department welcomes any scrutiny made by either the Auditor General or any committee of this House in regard to the payment of any of its ordinary accounts. But in regard to these accounts I say frankly and fairly that we cannot give that which we would give if it was a business transaction and we stand to be condemned by the House for doing as we have done, if the House sees fit. We have done this, as I have said, simply following the instincts of humanity ; if we have done wrong it is for the House to say so, and we will not sin again; but in my estimation we have done right and I believe the country will support us in the course we took under these circumstances.
, In regard to the general expenditure within treaty limits, that has increased in the past two years because the area of our treaty operations lias increased. We increased the area of our treaty obligat'ons by the Athabasca treaty in 1900: we added the Northern Saskatchewan treaty in 1906, and we are negotiating a treaty for the northern part of the province of Manitoba during this summer. Besides, we have a treaty made, I think, in 1905 in the northern part of the province of Ontario. We have added in the past eight years nearly as much territory to the Indian treaty as was under the Indian treaty up to that time, and it is hardly to be wondered at that our expenses under treaty obligations have increased under those circumstances.
We spent one and a quarter millions on Indian affairs in 1905-6. Of this amount, $200,000 was in payment of annuities, payments agreed to by the government on making a treaty with the Indians as a part of the purchase price of their lands. Nearly half a million dollars was spent on education. $200,000 in medical attendance and relief, and $360,000 for all other expenses lumped together as expenses of management.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The statement I made in regard to the increase of expendi-


Samuel Hughes: tqre was for the ten years previous to 1906. The minister is referring to the last two years. Previous to these treaties the expenditure increased $378,366 per annum.


Frank Oliver: As I was not /directly responsible for the work of the Indian Department during those years, I am not in the same position to answer for that expenditure as I am for that made since, notwithstanding my hon. friend's suggestion that I am not posted in the affairs of the Indian Department. However, I would like to say that his criticism is, on the one hand that we have not given proper attention to the Indians, and, on the other hand, that we have spent too much money on the Indians. Now in regard to annuities, that is not a matter of policy, we owe the money and we have to pay it. Our great expenditure is in regard to education. We spend half a million dollars on education out of the total of a million and a quarter. Now, it is in regard to education that the hon. gentleman insists that we should do more for the Indians. It is for education that we spend most of our money on the Indians, therefore, I think his criticism is hardly well founded. If he wants us to spend more money for education, well and good, but let him not find fault with us for having spent the sum we have spent.
There is an expenditure of $200,000 for medical attendance and relief. My hon. friend has suggested that we are spending too much money on account of medical attendance. Perhaps we are. But it is a fact we should keep in mind, that the Indians were not created to follow the same life as the white man-I am assuming that at any rate, and experience shows that when the Indian undertakes to follow the life of the white man, or when circumstances compel him to follow the life of the white man, it does not agree with his constitution, and his health suffers in consequence. Now, if there is one obligation that rests more heavily than another upon the white people who occupy this country, to the displacement of the original Indian population, it is that in so far as medical science is available, and within a reasonable measure of expenditure, there should be no lack of such medical care as will compensate for that radical change in the life of the Indian forced upon him by the civilization which tends to his physical destruction. We may spend too much money on medical attendance, we may not spend it wisely, but I want to say that in my humble estimation there is an obligation resting upon the white people of this country to alleviate the physical condition of the Indians, rendered bad, not because the Indians themselves are of an inferior physical condition, but because of the conditions of civilization forced upon them by the white man.
My hon. friend complained that we were spending a million and a quarter on the

Indians, the greater part of -which -went for management and only a small part of -which actually reached the Indians. No-w, that is perfectly correct. That is the policy of this government and of preceding governments; it is an obligation laid upon the government by parliament. The reason is that the Indian needs protection, care and education more than he does money. It -would not be sound public policy in the interest of the Indian any more than it would be in the interest of the state to take the million and a quarter of money that we spend on the Indians in one year and hand it over to them to control and expend as they pleased. If that were a sound policy then the Indians would not be Indians, in fact they would be better than a good many white men. But inasmuch as the Indians are Indians, inasmuch as they have not a knowledge of the ways of civilization, it is necessary that money should be spent upon them in education, in medical attendance, and in instruction in agriculture, as well as in the general supervision and management of their affairs. It is true that for every $2 that is voted by parliament on only $1 reaches the Indian's pocket. If this is a fault, we stand convicted of having committed it. But that is done because it is the fixed policy of the government and of the parliament of this country to take care of the Indians, and always has been the fixed policy, and I believe always will be, so long as there are Indians to take care of. As soon as an Indian arrives at a point when he is able to manage his own business, then we have no longer an Indian question, because there is plenty of room here for Indians as well as white men. But it is because the Indian has not the business capacity of the white man that we have to manage his business for him, and that costs a great deal of money. It is not that the Indian is not physically able to earn his own living, that he is not able to work the land or hunt the game. In a great many ways he knows more than we do, but as a business man he is lacking, and it is to make up for his lack of business ability that we are spending these vast amounts of money.
With regard to our dealing with the land of the Indians, if there is one thing that is considered a more sacred trust than another by the government of Canada-and I speak of the preceding government as well as of this government-it is the land of the Indians. It is the boast of this government that no man can place a finger upon any instance of having cheated the Indian out of his land. That has been the traditional policy of Canada ever since it has been Canada. My hon. friend speaks of the difference between the United States and Canada in regard to Indians. He says it is the policy of the United States to make the Indian a citizen. I have always understood
that it was the traditional policy of the United States to make the Indian a citizen of some other world rather than of this ; whereas, it was the policy of Great Britain and it has been the policy of Canada to treat the Indian honestly to the last cent and the last acre. If my hon. friend can find, by the efforts of the Public Accounts Committee, or in any other way-let him employ the hon. member for Montreal, St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) with his card index, his camera, and all his Sherlock Holmes methods-that one foot of the Indian's land has been dishonestly alienated, then he will have made a successful attack upon this government, because this government rests solidly upon that point, that in all its dealings with the Indians and Indian lands it is discharging a sacred trust and that trust has not been violated in the slightest degree. We have sold large quantities of Indian lands in the province of Ontario. We have sold islands belonging to the Indians. These sales have been made on conditions agreed to with the Indians, not established by this government -I do not know whether they were established by our predecessors-perhaps by some preceding government-but carried forward to-day as then with the knowledge and consent of the Indians. My hon. friend says that land has been sold for twenty cents an acre. I can only say that in some cases the Indians is twenty cents ahead, that the Indian has the twenty cents and the man who bought the land has nothing of value.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does the minister think it is the best way to have the lands sold at private sale by the agent and the price fixed by the agent, or, does lie not think it would have been a wise thing if the 620,000 acres of Indian lands that have been disposed of had all been disposed of by public tender and sale instead of by private sale as 500,000 acres were ? Does not the minister think it would have been in the interest of the Indians, if all that land had been disposed of by public sale after advertisement and does the minister intend to conduct the affairs of the Indian Department in future by selling the lands in the same way ns he has been doing in the past ?


Frank Oliver: Yes, the minister in so far as he has control, intends to conduct the sale of Indian lands in future as he is doing it to-day. Where the land is of sufficient value to make worth while a sale by auction, a sale by auction is made and where the land is not of such value as to make it worth while to sell by auction, then a price is fixed and is sold to the first man who will pay the price. My hon. friend in this matter,' as he has done in other matters, makes a comparison when there is none to be made, when there is no simSlarity of cases and conditions. He is undertaking to measure wheat with a yard stick instead of

with a bushel measure. He made some suggestion that we had sold land without the consent of the Indians. There are conditions under which we sell land without the consent of the Indians. Under the Railway Act, when a railway requires to cross a reserve the railway may cross the reserve and the Indians are paid for the land acquired for railway purposes at the value fixed by the department. That is in accordance with the Indian Act, that is a practice, that is what has been done, but that Is the only case in which land has been alienated without the consent of the Indians. Within a few days we will have a sale, right in the city of Ottawa, of the timber only on an Indian reserve of no great area within a couple of hundred of miles of Ottawa, and I fancy from all I can learn that my hon. friend will have his eyes opened, if he attends that sale and finds out the price that will be realized by the Indians for that timber.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Why have you not been doing it for years?


Frank Oliver: In regard to this particular timber we would have been glad to have done it years ago if we had been able to get a surrender from the Indians of their rights, but although that timber is estimated to be of enormous value, although it was in danger from year to year of being burned up, of being destroyed and becoming of no value to any one, the Indian Department would not stretch forth its hand to take a *tree off that reserve except with the consent of the Indians, signed, sealed and delivered according to the treaty made with them. They would rather that rt should be left to be burned, to be destroyed, to be lost to the Indians and the country than that the rights of the Indians should be violated in the slightest degree. That is the principle upon which the Indian lands are administered. We may not have been able to secure the results in the way of advanced civilization from the Indians tiiat we had hoped for and that we would like to see. It is true that the Indian is still an Indian. I am not going to argue as to why Providence saw fit to make one man as he did and to make another man as He did, but I must say that if providence did see fit to make the Indian an Indian and the white man a white man, the contract which my hon. friend says has been taken by the 'United States government of making the Indian into a white man is a large one. I do not wonder that the United States so far has failed in the attempt and I am not going to apologize because so far this government has also measurably failed in the attempt. But, we have entered into compacts with the Indians, we have discharged our obligations as a sacred trust, we have done for the Indians not only everything that we were called upon to do under the treaties that we have made with them, but all that the instincts Mr. OLIVER.
of humanity and the desire for the betterment of the conditions of the Indians has required us to do. We have gone as far as we could in that direction.
Now, my hon. friend lias said that he believes that in the matter of Indian education we should take the schools out of the hands of the churches and take the responsibility for the education of the Indians on the shoulders of the government. I am as well aware as my hon. friend and perhaps a little better, by reason of the circumstances, of the difficulties surrounding Indian education and surrounding the co-operation of the government and the churches with regard to Indian education. I do not know just how far I can go in pointing out the difficulties that exist in co-operation between the government and the churches in securing Indian education. I am not personally strongly impressed in favour of co-operative methods. My own inclination would be to allow the church to transact its business and the government to transact its business with regard to the Indians ; let them do as they jilease and let us do as we please. But, this fact is borne in upon me and I want to state it to the House with a full sense of responsibility that what the Indian needs is not a knowledge of geometry, or algebra, or astronomy or of the different branches of higher education. It is not even the reading and writing and the arithmetic he needs. Even a white man may live and live well and never know how to write his name or to read a book. But what the Indian does need is to have moral character instilled into his mind and heart. That, the government does not pretend to do. It looks to the churches to do that, and it is with that end in view the government has sought the co-operation of the churches in imparting education to the Indians. Perhaps we have failed, perhaps the churches have failed, perhaps the co-operation has not been as satisfactory to either party as it should have been. Remember, it was not this present government that undertook that co-operation, but I am stating to the House what I understand to be the foundation reason of the co-operation, and I believe it to be a good reason, and while I find difficulty in carrying out the educational work in connection with the churches-I find the churches difficult to deal with, difficult to satisfy if you like-I still recognize that if we are'to have an improvement in the condition of the Indians, that improvement must start in the mind, in the heart, in the soul. I do not think that even this government can satisfactorily undertake that work.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Frank Oliver: I think we may very well look to the churches in their missionary effort to do the work they have undertaken. They have gone far along that road ; we have co-operated with them so far as we have been able to, and whatever good we

may hope from the Indians we must expect it to begin there and in that way. The Indian problem is a great problem in this country. It began with the settlement of the. country and it will last as long as there are any Indians in the country. After all, 'Mr. Speaker, speaking for myself, I despair of ever making the Indian a white man. But, I do not despair of discharging the obligations of the government towards the Indians ; I do not despair of discharging the responsibility resting on any Christian country towards the less fortunate amongst its people, and the more so when those people are the original owners of the country ; people who have always been in friendly alliance with us on behalf of our common country. I want to say to the House that so far as I am concerned, notwithstanding what my hon. friend has suggested, I have a full appreciation of my responsibility in dealing with the Indian question, and I strive to the best of my ability to discharge that responsibility. If I fall it is not because of lack of effort to acquire knowledge and with all humility I say it is not because of lack of knowledge of the Indians or the Indian question, because I have lived amongst them when they were Indians and I know them from that time to the present day.


Mr. WM. WRIGHT (Muskoka).: As this is one of the questions in which I take a little interest I desire to say a few words. I recognize fully, as the Minister of the Interior "does, that the Indian question is a verv big question and that it is a very difficult question. The hon. minister has intimated that the member for Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) had not that appreciation of the question which he ought to have, and that he failed to recognize we are dealing with all kinds of Indians-Indians that approach civilization and Indians that Ijave never seen the face of a white man. I do not know where the Minister of the Interior would find this latter class of Indians because I assume that all Indians that have come under treaty and have been brought face to face with white people and have come under the influence of the missionaries for a good many years. It seems to me that there are influences which might be brought to bear in the civilizing of the Indians and which are overlooked by this government. The Minister of the Interior has said that he is leaving entirely to the churches the moulding of the moral and religious character of the Indians.


Frank Oliver: What I said was that we depended on the co-operation of the churches.


William Wright: I think I have stated fairly what the minister said, namely, that he was leaving entirely to clerical influences the moulding of the moral and religious character of the Indian.
Now, I think that ought not to be. In all the dealings of the department with the Indians, in the appointment of the agents who will be brought more or less in contact with the Indians and have influence on them, the moral aspect ought not to be overlooked. I believe the department have as much responsibility resting upon their shoulders to-day and for years past, as rests upon the various religious agencies that may be at work for the amelioration of the Indians. I think the minister would do well to look into that aspect of the case.
I have spoken to Indian agents and others who have been more or less in contact with the Indians of the west and they tell me one great difliculty is that many of the agents and those who are brought in contact with the Indians are not of a character which would be likely to prove morally uplifting to the Indians. I think sufficient care and attention has not been paid to that phase of the question by the department. And with regard to the Indian schools which have been delegated to the various religious bodies, it may be the best the government can do and I will not make any criticism of that. However, as I understand it these children are taken to the schools and trained there, but just when it comes to the critical moment when they leave these schools, they are neglected,. They have been taught the trade of carpenter or blacksmith as the ease may be, and when they leave the school they go back on the reserve and no more attention is paid (to them. On the reserve the Indians are roaming at will, living the life of the Indian; the only call that comes to them is the call of the wilds and they pursue their life as in the aboriginal state. The call of the wilds meets with response in the heart of the ex-pupil of the Indian school and he responds to it and he again becomes an Indian pure and simple. If, when the Indian boy or girl is ready to leave school they were not allowed to go back on the reserve but were surrounded with other influences to carry them along two or three years longer, I believe we would get better results from our handling of the Indians. I think a great deal more care should be paid by the government to that phase of the question, and I do not believe it would be out of the way for the government to make an experiment at that point. Let us suppose some of these boys had been taught the trade of carpentering. If they were taken under some proper management and put to building little houses on homesteads all over the west, there are hundreds and thousands of settlers who would appreciate that and be willing to pay more for their lands ; and at the same time it would be an excellent training for those boys. I only throw that out as a suggestion.
Now, I apprehend that we are dealing

with these Indians as wards of the government, and if I understood the minister aright, he fully appreciated that fact, and invited criticism in regard to his handling of Indian affairs. I think that in handling the funds of the Indians the government ought to be just as careful as if they were handling the money of the rest of the people of this country, and if anything more careful, to see that no undue charges are made against them and that their moneys are not needlessly paid away to agents or others who have dealings with them. I want to, mention a few facts in connection with that phase of the question, as shown by the Auditor General's Report. In the first place, I find that Dr. Bryce is drawing yearly from the Indian funds $1,125, while at the same time he is paid a salary by the Interior Department of $2,200, and I suppose ail expenses in addition. Dr. Bryce may be doing very valuable work, but I hardly think that the Indian fund should be dipped into to the extent of $3,325 to pay that official alone. I find that a little time ago Mr. Pedley was paid for travelling to Vancouver $163.65 for, I suppose, his fare, 75 days' allowance for travelling expenses at $10 per day. I think that is a pretty heavy charge to make on the Indian fund ; and yet out of those 75 days they figure up $913.55, so that he got more than $10 a day. At page J-10 I find that Mr. Itamsden and Mr. McKay have drawn considerable sums ; and just here I may say that I think there is no necessity for this government buying so much clothing as they do for many of the officials of the various departments. Under the expenses of treaty No. 9 we find that Mr. Ramsden was paid for his railway fares $165.75. Then, of course, he could not travel like an ordinary man, but must have a pullman, for which $13 was paid ; a travelling bag, $11; two pairs' of gloves, $4.25; two sweaters, $4; a waterproof suit, $4 ; a pair of long boots, $9.50; sundry other clothing, $5.05, and so on. Mr. McKay has to have a suit of clothes costing $20, an overcoat costing $10, sundry clothing costing $11.90 ; and, of course, he is very lavish with government money, and pays out in tips $10.25, and so on. We find such payments as these that men would hardly make when travelling on their own business. I think we might very well cut out a large part of that kind of expenditure instead of charging it up against the Indians. I admit that there is a good deal of medical attendance and medicine to be paid for. For instance, I find on page J-19 that A. R. Yates was paid $7.50 for one gallon of alcohol, $14.90 for bottles-I do not know whether there was anything in them; one gallon of whisky at $6.35 ; drugs and medical supplies and so on. I think we might very well ask whether it is necessary to spend the money of the Indians on items of this kind. Then, Mr. W. WRIGHT.
on page J-47 we find large commissions charged for purchasing supplies. I think we might very well cut out some of these. In connection with the gratuities and expenses of negotiating treaty No. 10, we find charges of this kind : Cigars, 200, $12.65 ; whisky, no ordinary whisky, but good Irish whisky, five gallons at $5.67 ; tobacco for party, two caddies, $24.44 ; tobacco to Indians, three caddies, $41.01; 24J lbs., $17.55. Then, Mr. McKenna, who gets his salary and expenses, lias also to have sundry clothing costing $15.87. There is a pair of boots for Dr. Labrecque, $5.50. There are medicines and toilet requisites costing $182.02. We find charges like these running through the accounts in many places, and I feel sure that they are overcharges. On page J-29 I find that $84 was paid for a Peterborough canoe. Though I am accustomed to canoes, I do not know what they would be worth in that country, but I think that is a high charge even for a Peterborough canoe. On page J-33 I find an item of $685 for installing two furnaces, one in the agent's house and one for a house being erected, I suppose* for his clerk. This seems to me to be a very outrageous price for two ordinary furnaces in any reasonable part of the Northwest. I feel with regard, not only to the Hudson Bay Company, but to many others having dealings with this government, that there is no attention given to the prices they charge, but they are allowed to charge whatever they see fit.
I do not think it can be contended by tbte minister or anybody else that there is any reason why we should pay $685 to put in two ordinary house furnaces. That seems almost outrageous. At page J-34, we have some peculiar charges. For instance, here is a charge for ' Pine Expectorant,' which I suppose is some medicinal preparation. The department bought twelve gallons of it. Then, we find that of Bole's Liniment they bought five and a half gallons. I suppose they are very much subject to toothache in this particular agency and that it was necessary to draw the teeth of a great many Indians. At any rate, we have a charge for one and a half dozen forceps, $48.60. I can hardly imagine such a case arising, but, of course, toothache may become chronic. Or an epidemic of toothache may have broken out in that agency, Or, it may be that some friend of the government had that many forceps on hand and wanted to get the money for them, so he put them in the Indian accounts and got a cheque for them. I find that a Mr. Paton, of Montreal, who does business with some of the other departments, has been getting in his work with the Indian Department also. A large number of fire extinguishers have been bought for the schools in the Northwest and even as far as British Columbia. The average price in the Northwest is, I think, $15, but I believe that in British Colum-

bia as high as $20 has been charged. I am not sufficiently acquainted with these matters to be able to say whether these are worth the money or not, but; gentlemen who know what they are tell me that they are of no value as a protection against fire, that they are simply bought from friends of the government and that this is a means by which the money of the Indian Department is frittered away. At page J-12, is a charge for plumbing which seems somewhat remarkable. We all know that plumbers can sometimes charge high figures, but when we find a charge of 95 cents an hour, that seems somewhat extreme even for the department to pay. And these people charged 79 hours at 95 cents. I would like to draw your attention also to page J-45 of the Auditor General's Report, the charges of Mrs. Paget, of Ottawa. My information is that this was supposed to be an effort to collect some data with regard to Indian lore, to be put in some publication that the government is supposed to be getting out. Rut in the Northwestern country, and all over Canada, we have Indian agents, we have preachers and teachers, who have been familiar with the Indians for many years, and would be conversant with the Indian loi'e, and in a better position to secure information concerning it than any lady, be she ever so clever, who would go out from Ottawa to secure it. If the government have those on their hands who would like a holiday trip in the Northwest, it would be better to pay the expenses out of the ordinary funds of the government, and not charge up to the Indian funds a pleasure trip of that kind. Let me call attention to some of the figures. This is referred to, in the Auditor General's Report, as an ethnological investigation, but the nature of the trip seems not to have been altogether well understood by the Auditor General. The following are some of the items :
Services, self, July-November, February-March, 1907, $664.50; board, $172.85; cabs and baggage, $50.75; horse-hire, $45.50; laundry, $31.80; Pullmans and porters, $102.25; railway fares, $343.70; bead work and leather coat, $31
I suppose this was essential :
-camp outfit, $68.46; cash to Indians, $37.50; Empire typewriter, $60; heavy rain coat, $8.50; provisions, &c.,	$81.90; stenographer, $25;
trunk and two leather cases

I suppose to put the beadwork, leather coat, heavy rain coat and other things into.
-$40; sundry outlay, $86.15.
I think we might well look into such expenditures. It seems to me that they are totally unnecessary in the management of Indian affairs. I find many similar charges running through these accounts of the Indian Department. At J-48 of the Auditor General's Report, I find the charges of the inspectors which include cleaning their
boots, tips to porters and waiters, and so on.
I think that these inspectors, who are officials drawing good salaries, and paid their travelling expenses, ought to be able to black their own boots or pay to have it done, they ought to buy their own clothing and pay their own laundry bills. I raise my voice in protest against burdening the Indian funds with personal charges of this kind. The department is apparently run at loose ends. The minister would do well to tighten up matters and see if we cannot get rid of a lot of these charges. For instance, in the accounts of the Babine agency, in British Columbia, I find a series of charges under the head ' Rev. Father M. Coceola, services and expenses re trip to Ottawa with two Babine chiefs.' Among the charges are the following :
Services, August 26-December 26, four months at $100; expenses en route, self. Fraser lake to Vancouver, $72.90; board, &c., in Vancouver, $4.50; first-class ticket. Vancouver to Ottawa and return, $136.30; Pullmans, $17; meals, $13; telegrams, $9.50; expenses of two chiefs en route, Babine to Vancouver, $79; two second-class tickets, Vancouver to Ottawa and return, $222.80; meals, $18; expenses in Ottawa, October 26-November 29, self, board, 36 days at $3; laundry, $10; livery, $5; chiefs' board, 36 days at $4; washing and mending, $24; tobacco, $4; medicine, $3; motor cars, $10; livery, $2.50; telegrams, $4.50; 2 suits of clothes, 2 overcoats, 2 pairs of shoes, $32.
And so on.


Mr.   M A CPU F. R SON@: If my hon. friend (Mr. Wm. Wright) understood the facts with regard to the Babine agency and Father Coccola's trip to Ottawa, I am sure he would not make it a matter of criticism.


William Wright: Does the bon. gentleman (Mr. Macpherson) wish to ask me a question ?


Robert George Macpherson: I ask if the hon. gentleman knows of the condition under which these men made the trip ? I am asking with no desire for controversy.


William Wright: I am objecting to the principle of the government paying expenses of this kind. Let the officials of the government be paid their salaries, and let them pay such expenses as these themselves. I decidedly object to things running along on the principle that they can charge for their washing, mending, clothing and things of that kind. And when they buy trunks, valises, travelling bags and boots, how do we know what becomes of these things ? I suppose they simply keep them. I strongly object to it all as a matter of principle. I am not discussing whether it was necessary for them to go, I make no criticism of that; I criticise the manner in which this has been done.
I find an item at J-49 for placing a wind mill head at Brandon, $85. There is another charge of $500 for a pair of horses

which seems high for the kind of horses probably required to run around an Indian agency. If they were heavy horses for farm purposes It might be ail right, but that does not seem to have been the case. Then I find a charge from the Western Hardware Company of 6 enamelled basins, whatever they may be, $237. At .T-53, we find a number of charges for medical attendance and surveys; Pullman fares for surveyors are charged to the extent of $53. Then when the surveyors finish their operations and sell their outfit they charge a commission of 25 per cent. I see one man charges $92 for simply selling the balance of the stuff he had on hand. It seems unreasonable that men drawing good salaries from the government should also charge commission.
The minister said that the only lands they disposed of without the consent of the Indians, were those through which railroads would run, that is that the right of way would run through an agency and the railways had to have the lands whether the Indians wanted to sell or not. Large sums of money are sometimes received in this way, but of the amount received for the land 10 per cent is charged against the Indians, simply for transferring the land to the railway.


Frank Oliver: Who gets that 10 per cent?


Mr. W. WRIGHT.: The man who does the selling.


Frank Oliver: That is the auctioneer ?


Aaron Abel Wright: I do not know whether it is the auctioneer.


Frank Oliver: That is 10 per cent of the cash received goes to the Indian Land Management fund provided for by the Indian Act.


Aaron Abel Wright: It does.not go to any fund, it is simply charged against the agency. They are given credit for the total amount of the sale : if it is $50,000 the agency is credited with that, $5,000 is charged against the agency.


Frank Oliver: That would go into the land management fund provided for by tiie Indian Act.


Aaron Abel Wright: I do not find any record in the receipts to make up this amount, so if it was intended to go into that it probably never reaches the place where it was intended to go.


Frank Oliver: If my hon. friend is of that impression he should bring the matter before the Public Accounts Committee without any delay.


Aaron Abel Wright: There is more before the Public Accounts Committee than it will ever be able to get through. We find an illustration of this charge at page J-99, Fort Francis agency reserve, Canadian Nor-Mr. W. WRIGHT
them Railway, payment for the right-of-way, $2,000. That is put into the fund created for the management of the lands, but the percentage taken out of that is $200. I think that is too much, no matter where you put it. I would like the minister to give some information about an item at page J-99 a payment of $500 to Mr. Chisholm, of London, for settling the Clench defalcation. I do not think that will ever find its way into any fund for the Indians.


Frank Oliver: It is up to my hon. friend to suggest an amendment to the Indian Act. I cannot administer the department in any other way than what the Act says.


Aaron Abel Wright: I was labouring under the impression that the hon. gentleman would be the most likely person to have it made right if it was wrong.


Frank Oliver: I think the Indian Act is right, I am not asking it to be amended.


Aaron Abel Wright: Very well then what are you asking me questions for ?


Frank Oliver: Because you complained and you are the man. to secure the remedy.


Aaron Abel Wright: I think the amount is excessive, the minister is perfectly satisfied and we will let it go at that.
At J-112, I find a payment on account of the Blood Indians, Alberta to R. H. Wilson for a hay mower, $475.47. Would any of that money find its way back into the Indian fund ?


Frank Oliver: Again if my hon. friend thinks the charges are wrong the Public Accounts Committee exists to deal with such questions, not the House of Commons. The House of Commons is not entitled to have its time taken up with that sort of information.


Aaron Abel Wright: The minister should lie in a position to state whether he thinks that is a proper charge to make for an article of that kind. If he does not know he should
say so.


Frank Oliver: I do not know anything about it, it is not necessary that I should. If my hon. friend wants to know more about it, he should take it to the proper place and he will receive full information.


Aaron Abel Wright: The hon. gentleman knows quite well that there is no opportunity of getting anything of this kind before the Public Accounts Committee that it is already overloaded with work. I may be able to reach it in that committee in two or three years.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend has had four or five months now.


Aaron Abel Wright: A fair price for that mower would be about $65 or $70. The minister says that his department is properly managed and that the greatest care is

exercised to see that no unreasonable charges are made. I have pointed out some of these items which struck me in reading the reports as being abnormal and not such charges as would be made in transactions between private individuals both of whom were' familiar with the value of the articles dealt in. In handling Indian affairs I believe it is the duty of the Indian Commissioner and of his chief, the minister, to deal with this matter very carefully, to see that no outrageous charges are allowed, and that only proper prices are paid. Some time ago the minister mentioned the fact that he had no method of checking, purchases made for goods sold by the Hudson Bay Company, and I presume the same condition of affairs runs through all the purchases made for the Indians, namely, that people put in their bills and charge what they like and as long as they do not seem too outrageous, they go through.


Frank Oliver: I may correct my hon. friend in that respect. I said that in regard to the expenditures made in the unceded territory for charitable purposes, we were not able to keep that check on our accounts that we were able to keep under other circumstances, and that in fact we did keep under all other circumstances.


William Wright: I presume that the hon. gentleman is only dealing with Indians in those parts of the Dominion where they are under the influence of white men, either as teachers, or preachers, or agents of various kinds, scattered all over that country, and I think that by their means a check could be kept over the accounts. I have gone over the accounts of the Hudson Bay Company, and while I am not familiar with the transportation problem, and the difficulty of transporting goods from the places where they are purchased to these Indians, I noticed that very heavy bills were paid for transportation. In many instances I think the prices charged are outrageous, and I can easily understand that the minister has no check over them. But where purchases are made running up into the tens of thousands, would it not pay the department to employ a man to check these accounts over, and see that only proper prices are paid, somebody familiar with the transportation problem in that country? In view of the prices that are paid, we must come to the conclusion that proper care is not exercised over the purchase of goods for the Indians, and over the schools. I am not quarrelling with the salaries paid to the teachers, I believe they are fairly reasonable, but I do think that the goods purchased in many instances are paid too high, and the minister might cut down the prices considerably. I know he has a large field to cover, but bv putting the proner man at the head of this department, I think he would bring about a better condition of affairs.


Mr. H. S. CLEMENTS (West Kent).: I think the hon. member for Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) deserves credit for bringing to the attention of the House this very important question. If the facts and figures he has given, as well as those given by my hon. friend from Muskoka (Mr. Wm. Wright) are correct, then it is high time that the government should take this matter into their serious consideration. While I do not profess to be familiar with the financial affairs of the department, I do say that if we can do any more for the benefit and the true interests of the Indians of this Dominion, it is our duty to do it. While I may appear to be a young man myself, I have considerable knowledge of the Indians of this country. In 1887 and 1888, I became familiar with the Indians of the Northwest, and particularly with those of British Columbia, on the Fraser river. While in the Northwest in the vicinity of Calgary, I was much impressed with the Indian school. I do not know whether that particular Indian school has been assisted by this government or by the past government, but I want to say that the school which was under the charge of Father Lacombe, and similar schools seemed to be doing a great deal to advance the Indian race in that country. When I visited that country again two or three years ago, I was informed that the great mistake made in some of those industrial schools was in allowing the pupils to drift back to their old habits, wherein they lost the advantages of the education they had received or the trade which had been taught them in these schools. Now I am sure that every Canadian is willing and desirous to advance the condition of the Indians, and I believe it would be to their advantage if the old and feeble among them were taken better care of and afforded more assistance. I would suggest also that every adult Indian of either sex who is strong and healthy, should be compelled to rely more on his own resources. I think that would be a good thing for this country and a good thing for the Indian race. Visiting a reserve last year, near Kams"ck in the Fort Pelly district, and chatting with some of the residents there who knew the Indians as well as the minister does, having been residents of that country for thirty years, they told me that the Indian Department was not managed in the interest of the Indians, that great changes ought to be made in the administration, and that all Indians of either sex who are able to work should be thrown more upon their own resources and be no longer fed with a silver spoon. I was told, and I saw personally, that if an able bodied Indian came in with a load of hav or a load of wood, he had to go to the Indian event and get a permit to sell it. I believe if some method were devised to throw these people more upon their own resources and give them a little more liberty

in their business, it would be a good thing both for the Indian race and for this country. It would take them out of the rut in which they are living at the present time, and where they will remain as long as their affairs are managed as at present. I only rose to offer my advice from a public standpoint, and to say that I believe a great improvement could be made in the present method of administering Indian affairs.
My hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Ralph Smith) spoke of the British Columbia Indians. In 1887 and 1888 I had a good deal of experience with the British Columbia Indians on the Fraser river. These Indians were bright, they were willing and able to work, and, even at that time, they gave every indication of making good Canadian citizens. The principal reason, as it appeared to me, for their advanced condition was that they were thrown more upon their own resources than the Indians were in any other part of the Dominion. The fact that a different condition has prevailed in Ontario, Manitoba and the Northwest has been a disadvantage to the Indians In those parts of Canada. I know something about our educated Indians in the province of Ontario, and I am sure that they are a credit to that province. If the minister or any hon. member of the House would ask any educated Indian of the province of Ontario his advice as to what was best in the interest of his race, he would say that the bands ought to be broken up and scattered, because it would result in their becoming better Canadian citizens, and it would be to the advantage of every one concerned. The minister found fault with my hon. friend from Muskoka (Mr. Wright) for having referred to the purchase of a hay mower at $400, and he told him that the Public Accounts Committee was the proper place to bring that matter up. Quite possibly it is, but the minister must know that it would be absolutely impossible, as hon. members upon this side of the House have been blocked in the Public Accounts Committee, to get any more work advanced in that committee than that which has now been undertaken. I know that personally, because I have a matter with respect to a binder twine seizure that I desired to have investigated by the Public Accounts Committee. The hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) told me to take it up there. I have been endeavouring to get it before that committee, but I have been unable to succeed so far, and that is the position we are in with regard to all these matters. However, I want to give my hon. friend from Muskoka credit for having referred to an account of that kind. Everybody who knows anything about farming is well aware that $400 is an excessive price to pay for a hay mower. This may be a hay mower on a large scale, but if it is not, I cannot understand how the department could have paid such a price. The same Mr. CLEMENTS.
remark applies to similar accounts which have been referred to this afternoon. The Minister of the Interior, who, I am sure, desires to conduct his department to the advantage of the country, should take the advice which has been offered him this afternoon, Investigate these matters, curtail the expenses of the management of his department and conduct it in a more economical and efficient manner.


Henry Horton Miller: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words, not on the question generally, but in reply to the remarks made by the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) as to the sale of Indian lands in the counties of Grey and Bruce. My hon. friend has examined the records faithfully and diligently, but the mistake that he made before bringing this matter to the attention of the House was thsft he failed to examine the land. I think it is probably true that twenty-six lots sold at ten cents an acre and that other lots sold at fifteen, twenty and twenty-five cents an acre. It is also true that some of these lands were sold by the Indian Department by private sale at an upset price. I would not take up any of the time of the House only that in all probability we will see the Conservative newspapers in the morning, under large headlines, making the statement that in the good old county of Grey and the fertile county of Bruce this government has sold land for ten cents an acre. The southern part of Bruce is perhaps as good a tract of agricultural land as will be found anywhere in western Ontario. The Bruce peninsula, bounded on the east side by the Georgian bay and on the west side by Lake Huron, runs probably sixty miles north from the town of Wiarton. The railway does not go farther north than Wiarton, so that these lands are quite inaccessible by rail. There is a tract of good farming land in the peninsula extending from Lion's Head to the Lake Huron shore, and there is another small tract of f arming land south of Tobermory, at the extreme north end of the peninsula. The land, other than these two tracts, is of very poor quality. Very littre of it is of any use for agricultural purposes. It has been of value for the timber, but there have been saw-mills at Owen Sound, Wiarton, Lion's Head and at a great many places along the peninsula, on the water and inland, for a large number of years, and the owners of these saw-mills purchased years ago all the lands in the peninsula which were of any particular value by reason of the timber upon them. A few years ago the Indian Department had a careful valuation made of the unsold land. There was a very small part of the land remaining unsold at that time. One of the valuators was named Halliday, and I do not just now remember the name of the other valuator. These two men, who were men living in the county, men of experi-

ence, valued, after a careful inspection, all these lands in the peninsula. Some of the larger islands were valued by the same men, and some of the islands on the Lake Huron shore were valued by Mr. Warren, a provincial land surveyor living in the county, who had a good knowledge of the value of the islands. In the department the hon. member for East Lambton, or any one else, may see, not only the valuations which were made by these valuators, but also the report showing the nature of the lands either on the mainland or the islands upon which they fixed the valuation, and reasons given for the valuations they made; so that there was no looseness in so far as that is concerned. It may seem strange perhaps that any land in that part of Ontario should be worth only ten cents an acre. I remember going through that peninsula on different occasions and for different purposes. I went up there at one time to endeavour to dispose of a considerable area of land that was owned by a loan company in Hamilton. I remember that I reported to the loan company that some of the lands were absolutely valueless, that it would be better to abandon these lands and not continue to pay taxes any longer because they were not worth the taxes. The reason for that absence of value is that there is not on 100 acres of some of this land enough soil to fill a wheelbarrow. These lands had at some period in their history some soil or vegetable mould and some timber upon them, but fire had swept the country, had destroyed the remaining timber, had burned off the vegetable mould and left the land absolutely valueless. I bought timber lands in that peninsula for a large furniture company with which I was connected, and the price ranged from fifty cents to a dollar and up to five dollars per acre, according to the value of the timber they contained. The hon. gentleman stated that an island containing some 18 acres was sold for $90. It may well be, as the minister has said, that the Indians are $90 ahead, and that the island is not worth even 90 cents to the man who purchased it. These islands, almost without exception, are mere rocky places without timber, without vegetation and with no capacity for producing vegetation. They might at some time be valuable as summer resorts, but that they are in an unaccessible place. You can only reach them by driving over rough roads from Wiarton, and there is not likely to be a railway in that section of the country. Most of them are surrounded by deep water, making them of very little value even if they were more accessible. It has also been stated by the hon. member for East Lambton that 76 islands containing 78 acres were sold for $1,371. The only marvel to me is that 76 islands, averaging only one acre in extent, could have brought the sum of $1,371.
One will easily understand that these 351
islands were not all of an average size and, therefore, if some 76 islands contained 71 acres some of these islands must have been, as they are, mere dots of rocks scarcely visible above the surface of the water. When the larger island was sold the smaller islands or juts of rock in the neighbourhood were sold with it. I do not think these islands would have brought that price only that in recent years some men of a speculative nature have had the idea that as there has been some evidence of the existence of coal oil on Manitoulin island, some of these islands south of Manitoulin may perhaps contain coal oil and they have been bought on the chance that at some day in the future coal oil may be discovered' there. I remember very well the sale of two comparatively large islands in the Georgian bay 16 or 20 miles from Wiarton and Owen Sound. These islands were put up for sale and tenders called for. One island was about 2,000 acres in extent and the other about 3,000 acres. I went very carefully over one of the islands with a member of the furniture company to which I have referred and we made very careful examination of the extent and kind of timber. The island at one time contained a large quantity of valuable oak, but that had been disposed of by the Conservative government ; what price they obtained for it or whether they obtained anything I do not know. The timber left was not of large value, but we were anxious to obtain it if it coud be obtained at a reasonable price, and we put in a tender for the largest sum we thought we could afford to pay. An Owen Sound miller put in another tender and different tenders were put in varying in amount. When the tenders were opened we found that some one else had valued this particular island more highly then we had and had obtained it. It was well advertised, many tenders were put in, and I have not the slightest doubt that these two islands brought the very outside limit of their value. The member for Lambton has stated that it .would have been better not to have put a fixed value on the islands, but to have sold them by public auction. I may say that year after year many of these islands in the Bruce peninsula were sold by auction at tax sales. The lands were obtained and patented at a time when there was timber of some value on them, and the timber having been destroyed in part and in part removed, many of these lands were put up to auction at tax sales after having been advertised in the newspapers for three or four months. I have seen lands in this same locality sold at these tax sales not at 10 cents an acre, but at 3 cents, 4 cents, 5 cents and 10 cents an acre and at a somewhat higher price. But many a hundred acres have been sold for $4 or $5 to a purchaser who had never seen the land and who when he did see it considered it of too



small value to pay the cost of registering h-is deed or further taxes. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Armstrong) had taken the trouble to examine the land as carefully as he has the records, he would not have brought this matter to the attention of the House and the country.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Surveys and inspections, $50,000.
William Pugsley: - This is to defray expenses of inspections and surveys in connection with harbours, rivers, slides, booms, &c., and other services under the control of the department. The estimate by provinces is : Maritime provinces, $19,000; Quebec, $14,000; Ontario, $19,750; Manitoba, $1,500; Alberta and Saskatchewan, $1,500; British Columbia, $4,250. We shall probably have to ask for $10,000 in the supplementary estimates. The actual expenditure last year was $53,687 and a vote had to be taken in the supplementary estimates.


Samuel Hughes: Why do you maintain these slides and booms?


William Pugsley: They were constructed by the provinces before confederation and they have been maintained since as federal works.


Robert Laird Borden: What are these surveys ?


Mr.   PTJGSBEY@: For instance, if there is an application for the building of a wharf an engineer is sent from the department to make examination and careful inquiry as to cost.


Robert Laird Borden: Are engineers sent from Ottawa or do the resident engineers in the different provinces carry on the work ?


William Pugsley: In most cases the work is performed by the resident engineers, but in some cases the engineers are sent from Ottawa. For instance, a short time ago an examination was required in the city of St. John and an engineer was sent by the department. His expenses would come out of this vote. But in most cases these inspections and surveys are made by engineers in the localities concerned.


Mr. STAPLES.: Will the minister tell me what rivers or lakes or harbours have been explored in Manitoba?


William Pugsley: Last year. $1,701.40 was spent out of this vote for Manitoba-on Lake Manitoba, Lake Winnipeg and the Red river.


William D. Staples: What surveying was done?


William Pugsley: I am not able at the moment to give the details. I will get them for my hon. friend if he desires.	I


Henry Horton Miller: 


William D. Staples: Was any of that money spent around Delta?


William Pugsley: I think not.


Mr. PORTER.: In what manner does the hon. minister determine the amount of money that will likely be required in the various provinces? Is it a mere guess, or is it derived from the amount expended last year?


William Pugsley: It is based to a certain
extent on the expenditures in previous years, but also on applications and petitions to the department from people in various sections of the country, asking for the construction of a wharf or for certain dredging work or for the removal of obstructions from a river and the like. Having all these applications, the minister gives instructions to the chief engineer to have a survey and report made for his information in order that he _ may determine whether or not an appropriation shall be asked from parliament for a particular work. The Chief engineer estimates the probable cost of making all these surveys in the different provinces, and has also the experience of previous years as a guide.


Edward Guss Porter: I ask the question for this reason. During the present session occasion arose to have an inspection and possible survey of the harbour of Belleville owing to floods from anchor ice in the river having caused considerable damage. I asked the minister if it would not be possible to have an inspection and survey of the harbour made with a view to avoiding a recurrence of such floods in the future. The hon. minister told me that it was a matter that did not belong to his department, and I think referred me to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. It seems to me that out of this vote an inspector or surveyor might be sent to investigate just such a case as I refer to. Nothing has been done to remove the difficulty, and next winter we may be met by the same conditions that existed last year and have existed for many previous years.


William Pugsley: I may say to my hon. friend that an engineer of the department was sent to Belleville by my directions and did make an examination and report on the matter to which he refers. That would be just one of the things that would be paid for out of this vote. I think my hon. friend misunderstood me in regard to making the improvements suggested. One suggestion was that there should be an icebreaker sent there and kept in the harbour for the purpose of breaking the ice, which I did not think appertained to my department. What I did was to send an engineer, Mr. Sing, of Toronto, who made an examination and report. I have no objection to bringing down the report if the hon. gentleman would like to see it.


Edward Guss Porter: Could the hon. minister tell me what is the effect of it?


William Pugsley: I do not remember at this moment, but I shall be very glad to furnish a copy of It to my hon. friend.


Edward Guss Porter: I was told that an engineer had been sent from the department to make an examination, and I found that half a dozen holes had been cut in the ice; but I was also told that instead of making a survey or inspection of the harbour, he spent a large portion of his time in inspecting the revetment wall about which I made some complaint in the early part of the session. May I ask, was the same officer engaged in making an inspection of that wall and of the harbour?


William Pugsley: I do not recollect at present.


Samuel Hughes: Might I ask the minister what works his department retains charge of in the Trent Yalley and Gull river waters, or have any of them been handed over to the Department of Railways and Canals?


William Pugsley: The Trent Valley Canal I would regard as being within the jurisdiction of the Department of Railways and Canals, but I would regard it as my duty to look after the construction of wharfs or the providing of other facilities for navigation in any of the lakes along the route.


Samuel Hughes: Can the minister recall what works his department still controls in those waters? Has he anything to do with the booms or slides?


William Pugsley: All dues on booms and slides are collected by a gentleman named Smith. The more important ones are on the Ottawa, St. Maurice and Le LiSvre rivers.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I am in somewhat the same position as the hon. member for West Hastings (Mr. Porter). I am glad there is an estimate of $50,000, and I hope it will be properly spent, for a purpose which I have mentioned in this House several times, the improvement of the Thames river. I hope the minister will get a thorough report upon the conditions there, not a report the result of a mere observation of half an hour or so. The minister sent an engineer up there last spring, at a time when a very serious flood was expected. I can only say that if it had not been for a kind providence, the waters would have broken bounds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage would have been done. I hope that between now and next spring the minister will go into that problem, which, I am sure, he will agree should be taken up either by his own department or the Department of Marine and Fisheries. I may inform the minister that his predecessor, Mr. Hyman, took that question so seriously into consid-351J
eration that he realized that the whole district was placed in danger and that this cut-off which I advocated should be built. The department was inclined to argue that this was a provincial matter, but I refer the minister to ' Hansard ' of March 29, 1906, in w-hich Mr. Hyman said that he would endeavour, so far as his department was concerned, to make that cut-off. If we require assistance in the coming winter or spriug, I hope the minister will allow us what we require.
Now, if I am in order, I -would like to refer to another matter. I was not in the House when the Ontario Public Works estimates were going through. I would like to ask the estimated cost ot the work in connection with Teeumseh park on the River Thames. There is a work there, to which I objected when it was built, which ' is falling down, but has been partially rebuilt or pulled together. I understand that it is proposed to build 200 feet of wall along the River Thames, adjoining the Teeumseh park wall already built, and I would like to know if it is proposed to build that wall as high as the wall already there. If that wall is properly built, it will serve as a wharf. This is what I have advocated on several occasions. I thought it would be money wisely spent to build this wall where, I understand, this 200 feet is to be built now. But, in view of the conditions in that beautiful park, I hope the minister will put the work in charge of some efficient officer. I understand that Mr. Flook, of Chatham, has the contract. I can say only good words of Mr. Flook, because I understand he is one of the best men to do that work. But I hope the minister will not build that wall in the same way as the other, for the one already built is a disgrace to the department and to the country, especially in view of the amount of money spent on it.


William Pugsley: I will have the matter looked into carefully. I wish to say a word with regard to the steps necessary to be taken for the prevention of floods at Belleville and Chatham. I am sure that my hon. friends will agree that the matter is of great importance from both the federal and provincial standpoint. It is important to consider very carefully just how far we shall go in carrying on works of this character which are not for the improvement of navigation, but are designed to prevent? damage being done by the flooding of their banks by rivers such as the Thames and the Moira. While I reeognue that there may be reasons why the federal government should engage in this work, yet, if we undertook work of this character, it -would be difficult to determine just where the expenditure would end. There are innumerable rivers in Canada on -which there is danger of floods occurring from time to time resulting in great damage to property, and I

would not like to hold out the hope to hon. gentlemen that the federal government, at any rate through the department under my control, will undertake expenditures of this character. I am disposed to look into the matter very carefully. I will confer with the chief engineer upon the reports which have been made, and shall be glad to consider the matter, with careful attention. But I would not like the local authorities to feel that they could throw off their shoulders the burden of making works of this character.
iMr. PORTEK. I think that the condition existing at Belleville are such that the statement of the minister cannot apply to that case. I can readily understand the position he takes in regard to streams generally. But I call his attention to the fact that in Belleville the harbour is under the absolute control of the federal government, the provincial government having no jurisdiction.


William Pugsley: Are the commissioners appointed by the fedei'al government ?


Edward Guss Porter: Yes, the harbour is carried on by commissioners appointed by the federal government. It is generally believed in Belleville that the floods in the river are caused by the fact that the harbour, just where the river enters it, is not deep enough to allow the ice to float out into the bay. The overcoming of this difficulty is a work that must be done, as I take it by the Dominion government. If that is the situation-


William Pugsley: I may say to the hon. gentleman that the want of consent of the federal government need not stand in the way, because, if that consent is necessary to enable the work to be done to prevent the floods, it will be cheerfully given.


Edward Guss Porter: I understand that, but the provincial and local authorities are glad to leave the responsibility with the federal government. Is there an inspector for this kind of work, or is it done by any engineer of the department ?


William Pugsley: This kind of work is done by the staff of engineers of the department. In the case of Belleville, Mr. Sing, of Toronto, was directed to make investigation. For the Ottawa river, an engineer from headquarters would probably be sent, if in the Montreal district, some member of the staff of Mr. Michaud, the resident engineer. There is no positive rule in these matters. If it is more convenient to send an engineer from headquarters, such an engineer is sent.


Edward Guss Porter: It would seem to me to be better to have special engineers who would make themselves thoroughly familiar with this class of work and so become especially qualified to do it. We have had a number of engineers examine the situation Mr. PUGSLEY.
at Belleville, but they are unable to suggest any means that would obviate the difficulty.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: Mr. Fuller of the Public Works Department is I think most familiar with the situation on the Thames.


William Pugsley: It was Mr. Fuller who did report on the Thames.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I would be satisfied with a full report from Mr. Fuller. While the river is navigable and a great deal of tonnage passes through it, the great trouble lies at the mouth of the river. There is a small channel about a mile and a half long and shallow water on each side of it. This has to be dredged each year, and I would suggest to the minister that if a cribwork or pier was built along one side of the channel it would prevent a great deal of the dredging now required, and in the end save a great deal of money to the department and country.


Mr. HERRON.: Has the minister had any report from McLeod as to damage by floods?


William Pugsley: I do not recall any such report and my deputy says that nothing has come to his notice in regard to it.


John Herron: Although I have no official reports, I judge that the breakwater built by this government about a year ago to protect McLeod from the falling away of the banks of the Old Mans River have been washed away, and I do not think the local government would feel capable of spending the necessary amount to protect the banks. As the work has already been done by this government I suppose the responsibility will -fall on them.


William Pugsley: Not necessarily ; it may-have been done when Alberta was a territory.


John Herron: No, I think it would be within twelve months that this work was finished. May we look for assistance from the government in securing protection there ?


William Pugsley: I cannot say at the moment, because there has been no report so far as I know.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The precedent has been established years ago of doing that kind of work in one or two places at least. I am not saying whether it was wise or not. Whatever may be said with regard to Belleville, if the difficulty was owing to the shallowness of the river and it would be an aid to navigation to improve it, then this government would be justified in undertaking it. It would apply to the Thames because the Thames is navigable and is certainly under the control of the federal government.


William Pugsley: For purposes of navigation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the trouble is owing to shallowness there and you would improve it by dredging the river, it is in one sense an aid to navigation, and when improving navigation you are getting rid of that trouble as well. In that respect I think the government would be justified in using money there for that purpose.


William Pugsley: It is a question of more difficulty than my hon. friend seems to imagine. We have applications for large expenditures upon navigable rivers for the protection of banks. Not long ago I received a telegram from the Minister of Public Works of British Columbia taking it for granted that this government would reimburse the British Columbia government for an expenditure of many thousand dollars they had made on the Fraser river at Mat-squi and also at Revelstoke. I did not feel that as a matter of course this government should bear that expenditure. If we had to... do it as a matter of federal policy upon all the navigable rivers of the country it would cast a very severe burden upon the federal revenues. Take the St. Lawrence for instance. There are scores of places where in the spring the banks being low, lands are overflowed and considerable damage is done to property. If we recognize as a principle that the federal government can properly be called upon to protect the banks from overflow because the rivers are navigable, the House will see that a large expenditure will be involved. I admit it has been done in some cases, but we have to be somewhat careful as to the extent we shall go in that direction. It is admitted that in the case of Chatham and Belleville the primary object in making improvements Is not to aid navigation but to prevent damage to adjacent lands by flooding of those lands by the river in the spring either because of ice jams or excessive rain fall. The question is one of great importance, and the most I can say at present is that I will give these two claims which have been brought before us by the hon. gentleman, my most careful consideration.


Edward Guss Porter: I would mention another matter to the minister. The government employed one of their dredges in deepening the channel to the Belleville harbour in that part where the river enters it, and they dredged this channel for a considerable distance up towards wdiere the harbour and river join. But they did not quite reach that point, and there remains about one-third of the work yet to be done. I am bound to say of the work that has been done that it considerably relieves the situation there, and we believe if the channel were continued up to the point of junction it would probably remove the whole difficulty.


William Pugsley: I wrill see what can be done.


Mr. OWEN.: I would like to ask the minister if he has given any consideration to the request of a deputation from the village of Brighton that waited upon him and asked him to take over the wharf and build a shed ?


William Pugsley: I have given careful consideration to the matter. The hon. gentleman will remember that the delegation pressed .upon me the view that the present owner of the wharf was willing to sell at a reasonable figure. I stated that I would not be willing to engage to purchase the wharf unless I knew beforehand what the engagement would mean. A short time ago I received a letter from one of the principal members of the delegation in which he stated that the owner had declined to put any price on his property.
Cement testing laboratory-improvements, $5,000.


William Pugsley: This vote is for the purpose of making additional provisions and adding the latest improvements for testing the strength of cement. The amount expended last year was $3,166 out of $5,000, and as the part unexpended has lapsed, I will now ask for another vote of $5,000. I may say there is a laboratory known as the cement laboratory which has been established in Ottawa under the charge of Mr. G. E. Perley. In this laboratory samples of cement and other building material may be tested free of charge for those who are interested in cement. A good deal of work has been done. I think in all, nearly 1,200 samples have been tested during the past year, of which 996 were from the engineers of the Public Works Department, 149 from the Railways and Canals Department, nine from the Intercolonial Railway and some from the contractors and cement companies.


Edward Guss Porter: How many people are employed there ?


William Pugsley: I think there are five or six in all. During the last eight months there has been installed a complete electrical storage battery plant. Mr. Perley has urged this further amount as neccessary in order to thoroughly equip the laboratory with the latest appliances.


Edward Guss Porter: I wish to inquire whether the work of this laboratory is confined to the testing of cement after it is manufactured. We know that a great change has come over the manufacture of cement, and instead of making it from marl it is now principally made from rock. Is it possible for persons who believe they have material for making good cement from rock to have a test made to find out what percentage of lime it would carry, and whether it would be workable or not for manufacturers' cement.


William Pugsley: I think that would rather be the work of a chemist. My de-

puty informs me that that has not been done so far. I do not know whether it would be desirable to provide for that, but if it were done, we would have to have a staff of chemists. This is for the purpose of testing the strength and durability of cement. It would be a different matter to determine the quality of stone beforehand.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you not test by analysis what the cement is composed of, and is that not done in a chemical laboratory ?


William Pugsley: They are tested both chemically and physically.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the interest of the cement industry it is important that facilities should be afforded for determining whether the rock of a certain locality is suitable for the manufacture of cement.


William Pugsley: I think that would be desirable.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We have a great deal of marl and clay deposited in various parts of Canada, as well as stone, and many people would like to know the value of these materials for cement. Frequently people make inquiries about it, and would' be very glad to have a chemical analysis made, and it would not cost the government much money to have this done in a laboratory. With regard to this vote, you start a vote for a certain purpose, you expend part of the money in one year, and you carry the vote on from year to year, and never know when it is ended. It is not always because the work is not completed, but because somebody wants to satisfy his ingenuity and carry the expenditure on a little further, and you want to keep somebody employed. I think these things ought to be looked into from time to time, and there ought to come a period when the expenditure should stop.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Richard Blain: Are the result of these experiments published?


William Pugsley: No, they have not been published.


Richard Blain: What objection would my hon. friend have to publishing them? There are a great many people interested in the success of the cement business. A large number of people have their money invested and in some cases the cement industry has not been very successful.


William Pugsley: The laboratory is for the purpose of testing cements which are used in the various public works. We also do testing for the Department of Railways and Canals and the Department of Marine and Fisheries. If we published the results Mr. PUGSLEY.	-
they would be used for advertising purposes, whereas these tests are for the information of the department.


Richard Blain: Of what value are they?
Mr. PUGSLEY'. The department have refused to allow any cement to be used which does not stand the test made in the laboratory. I am not sure that it would be desirable to have the results published.


Mr. MACLAREN.: Do you test a sample from every carload of cement going into the work or simply make one test?


William Pugsley: I am not prepared to go into the details of that. It is understood that the superintendent, Mr. Perley, tests the various samples of cement. Of course, it is for him to be satisfied that the samples are a fair average of the cement to be used.


Alexander Ferguson MacLaren: He should test every carload.
Mr. PUGSLEY'. Possibly that may be wise. I presume that he tests to such an extent as he thinks necessary in order to determine the quality of the cement.


Alexander Ferguson MacLaren: The results of the tests, if published, might be used for advertising purposes, but at the same time it would be a good thing for the people of the country to know who had good cement and who had bad cement. There are many factories who are making an inferior quality of cement and there is a lot of cement made out of rock deposits containing magnesia which also interferes with the quality. I think it is a splended idea for the department to have a laboratory and to have these tests made, but I think the public should have an opportunity of knowing what the results of the tests are, provided it would be fair to every one to publish them.


William Pugsley: Just at the present my mind is open on the subject, but I can easily see how, if all the different cements were tested irrespective of whether they are to be used on public works, some manufacturers who were supplying cement for private contracts might think that perhaps an injustice was being done them by the publication of the results. So far the object of the laboratory has been to satisfy the department and the other departments of the government using cement as to the quality, but the suggestion is worthy of consideration. I shall think it over carefully ond consult my staff regarding the propriety or otherwise of publishing these results.
, Mr. HENDERSON. I am not sufficiently acquainted with the proces to know whether the result will be as the minister has stated. Take a parallel case. Go down to the Geological Department and you will find analyses being made of lime and lime

rock which are of very great value to the public. People go there to get analyses of various limes. One man wants a lime of a certain composition, another man wants a lime of another composition and they determine in that way which is the most suitable. One man may want lime for manufacturing paper, another for carbide, another for building or plastering purposes, and I know they do go there to ascertain the character of the lime in order to determine the article that will suit their purpose best. It may be that the same condition exists with regard to cement. Perhaps one cement would be more suitable in one place and another more suitable in another place.


William Pugsley: I doubt that. I think it is a question of the strength of the cement.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Probably the minister may be quite right, but it may be that one cement may be more suitable for use under water and another for surface work. I do not think there would be much harm even if the public were made aware of where they can find the best cement in the country. I think it is the duty of the government to educate the public along that line by furnishing them with information. I would not be afraid of interfering with any man's industry. If he cannot make an article equal to that of another, let him suffer the consequences, and if he has a better article let the government give him the advantage of it.


Richard Blain: Have the tests been sufficient to cause the department to say that no American or imported cement shall be used in any public works in Canada? ,


William Pugsley: The tests have been sufficient to assure the department that Canadian cement is as good as any in the world.


Richard Blain: That is very good in so far as it goes, but, in my opinion, it does not go far enough.


William Pugsley: Perhaps I can go farther -and in the specifications for public works required by the department it is provided that none but Canadian cement shall be used. '
'Mr. MONK. I think this is a very important question. I am very glad to hear the minister declare that Canadian cement is equal to any in the world but I do not see why the results of the experiments are not published. Is the testing of cement subject to any other rule than the tests which we apply in the Department of Inland Revenue to all the products that are examined there? The Minister of Public Works has stated that only Canadian cement will be used in his department and that'Seeriis a wise resolution. But the Montreal Harbour Commissioners have just contracted for 30,000 barrels of cement in Belgium and that has created quite a stir in Montreal. I believe the tenders from the Belgian firm were a little lower than those from Canadian firms, but the cement being just as good there would be compensation in ordering Canadian cement. I do not wish to unduly criticise the Montreal Harbour Commissioners because I think they are a very good body of men. They are under the control of the Dominion government and I would like to know from the minister why they depart from the rule he has laid down in his own department. Such an order as 30,000 barrels of cement would be a great encouragement to the home industry and Canadian cement being as good as the imported article why was not the order given here to encourage Canadian industry and Canadian workmen? A word from the minister on that point might soothe the feelings of a great many people in Montreal who are interested in the industry.


William Pugsley: I assume the Montreal Harbour Commissioners are an independent body who award contracts according to their own judgment. They are under the department of the Minister of Marine who may have something to say.


Mr. BRODEUR.: The matter was brought to my attention by a question put in the House and in reply to inquiry the harbour commissioners stated that they gave the contract to the Belgian firm because their tender was much lower than the others, and as they wanted to administer the harbour in the most economic way they accepted the lowest tender.


David Henderson: Do I understand the contract was given to the lowest tenderer without regard to quality.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Oh no, quite the reverse. They have reported that the Belgian cement could stand the test with the Canadian cement and was of good quality.


Mr. MONK.: The information I got in Montreal was that there was only a few cents difference in price and that on account of the increased cost of living here and the better conditions of our workmen it was impossible to produce cement In Canada as cheaply as they do in Belgium or most European countries. The cement industry is starting in Canada and Canadian cement is as good as imported cement. This was a very large order and the quality of our cement being equal to the imported it is a poor principle to say that because the Belgian cement is a few cents cheaper such a vast order should go to a foreign country. The Montreal Harbour Commissioners are business men and have so far done their work very well but in this instance I think they made a mistake. The works in Montreal are not by any means finished and unless there is some very grave reason future orders should go to the Canadian industry.


William Stevens Fielding: Assuming that the quality of the two cements is equal I would be disposed to say a word for the harbour commissioners. We give a very respectable duty on cement which Is an encouragement to the Canadian industry and I have reason So think the industry is doing very well here.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The duty is not high enough.


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is, and we have had very serious complaints that it was too high. We have given that important industry a certain degree of protection and if the Belgians can make the cement, bring it across the ocean, pay the duty, and sell it cheaper than our Canadian manufacturers can I submit as a business proposition the harbour commissioners are right.


Aaron Abel Wright: Last fall a very important industry in my riding was unable to get cement from our Canadian manufacturers at any price and was in consequence obliged to close up their works. There was no factory in Ontario that could furnish them with cement.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That is news to me.


Aaron Abel Wright: It is not news to me.


Alexander Ferguson MacLaren: The great trouble at the season of the year referred to by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wright) was lack of cars to ship the cement. Last October we could ship 15,000 barrels more but we could not get the cars.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It will be news to every one, because I know there was an ample supply of cement in Canada although there may not have been cars to move it. If we follow the principle announced by the Minister of Finance I do not see why we should encourage Canadian industries at all. There are a large number of European manufactures which on account of the conditions in the European labour market, can be sent to Canada and pay the duty and undersell the Canadian manufacturers, and if the principle laid down by the Minister of Finance is sound it should be applied all round. I do not know why any one industry should be singled out. For instance, pickles can be produced in European countries and sold in Canada at a lower price than the Canadian manufactured article to the consequent damage of the Canadian farmers who grow vegetables for that industry.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: It is a fair business proposition that if the government goes to the expense of testing cement the people of the country should have the benefit of the results so that they may know where to get the best cement. What does the minister intend to do in future with regard to that ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


William Pugsley: If the results of the tests were published it might enable certain manufacturers to use the certificate of the government, while the cement they would manufacture one week and which had received the certificate might be of better quality than the cement manufactured the following week.


Uriah Wilson: Is that the experience of the department?


William Pugsley: To some extent, yes. The cement produced by the same manufacturer will vary considerably in quality, and consequently we have, from time to time, to test the cement used for any particular work. If we publish the result of these tests the law would have to be changed so as to compel cement manufacturers to produce a standard quality and to forward their cement for continual tests. It would have to be compulsory, and we would have to do it from week to week. As I have said, my mind is not closed on the subject. I will consider it, but at present I see quite a strong objection to doing so.


Richard Blain: The Minister of Public Works has stated to the House that his department imposes the restriction that the cement used in public works must be manufactured in Canada. May I ask if that is the policy of the other departments of the government?


William Pugsley: I cannot answer for the other departments.


Richard Blain: Perhaps the Minister of Marine and Fisheries would say whether that is the policy of his department.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We do not purchase a large quantity of cement, but what we have purchased lately has all been manufactured in Canada.


Richard Blain: What objection does my hon. friend have to making it compulsory that all the cement purchased by his department shall be of Canadian manufacture?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I would not go so far as that, because if we confine our tenders to Canadian manufacturers we sometimes get very high- prices. It is open to all the producers of cement to put in tenders, and then we are guided by the prices and the quality of the article.


Richard Blain: If that is a good policy for the Minister of Public Works to adopt, I cannot see why it is a good policy for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to refuse. I think there is now sufficient competition in the cement business in Canada to ensure a sufficiently low price to the government or to any person using cement; and if, as my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier has pointed out, we are to have protection for Canadian labour and for the manufacture of cement in Canada, I think if

should be the policy of the government in every department to specify that the cement used In public works should be Canadian cement. If the time arrives when the government find the price too high, they can1 take action; but so long as there are in Canada a sufficient number of cement factories to supply what is required in Canada, we should encourage Canadian enterprise in this respect. I think it would be fair to publish to the world the result of the experiments that have been made, showing that the cement manufactured in Canada is equal to any in the world, for there are a good many people in Canada who think imported cement is better than Canadian cement. May I ask the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals whether in his department, if cement is required, he specifies that it must be of Canadian manufacture?


Mr. GRAHAM.: I am not sure that that is the specification, but I think that is the practice.


Richard Blain: Would a contractor who purchases cement from a Canadian firm have the right to send it to the department to be examined and reported upon?


William Pugsley: Only contractors on gov-' ernment works.


Richard Blain: If that is the policy, I do not think it goes far enough. The government appropriates public money for the purpose of making tests of the quality of cement. Why should not a contractor in any great centre of population, such as Ottawa, Montreal or Toronto, or any other place in Canada, or any man who is investing his money in building, have the right, if he thinks the cement he is buying is not up to the standard, to send it to the department and have it tested and reported upon?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Then the position, I understand, is that in all the departments of the government where cement is used, it is a custom and condition that Canadian cement alone is supplied, except in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, where freedom is granted to use foreign-made cement if that is found more convenient or cheaper.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We have not used any foreign cement at all.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The Harbour Commissioners of Montreal are under the control of my hon. friend.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Oh, no. The Harbour Commissioners of Montreal are an entirely independent body. They do not submit their contracts to the department, and we have no control over them. They are absolutely free.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: My hon. friend is not serious in that. If the law were as my hon. friend states it to be, the relations between
the government and the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal are such that a mere hint from the government that that is the policy they have adopted would be sufficient to cause the Harbour Commissioners to adhere to the same policy. But my hon. friend is wrong. Under the law all important contracts made by the Harbour Commissioners, all changes and improvements in the harbour, have first to receive the approval of the government. I know that the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal were inclined to give the contract in Canada in order to encourage our own industry. I think therefore that it is a great pity that the Department of Marine and Fisheries should have departed from the general rule laid down by the government in a province where we have cement industries at the present moment, and should have allowed latitude to those who have control of public works.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think my hon. friend will find any provision in the lajv obliging the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal to submit to the department every contract they made. It has been the policy of the department to leave to them a free hand in that respect. The only thing they are obliged to do is to submit to the government for their approval the plans for harbour works or improvements; but so far as contracts are concerned, they are absolutely free to do as they like, and there is a very good reason for that. The Harbour Commissioners of Montreal have been borrowing money from the government on which they are paying interest. Why then should they be obliged to submit to the government the contracts they made? We have the good fortune to have three able business men who are doing a great deal for the port of Montreal in the way of large improvements. In fact, since last year when they were appointed, they have done more than was done for many years previous. Why, then, should they be hampered in the way they administer their affairs? I want to leave them with an absolutely free hand in making their contracts.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I very much prefer the reason given by the Minister of Finance to the one I have heard from my hon. friend, and I regret very much that he has departed in the administration of his department from the very wise and patriotic rule laid down by his predecessor, Mr. Frefontaine. He believed it his duty, in any department over which he presided, in any public works that he controlled, unless there was some very grave reason against it, to give the work in such a way as to encourage Canadian labour, enterprise and industry. My hon. friend, of course, is mistaken when he says that he exercises no control over the harbour commission. He knows that a

mere expression of desire from the government in such a case, where the difference of price was small, w'ould have guided, and properly guided, the Montreal Board. For they have continual dealings with the government, and have no reason, on the contrary, to depart from the general principle applicable throughout the country that the government has seen fit to adopt with regard to the encouragement of our industry. I cannot see much, I must say, in my hon. friend's allegation that he has done a great deal to encourage the harbour board. For he knows perfectly well that the most important suggestions and recommendations of the Commission on Transportation, recommendations all-important to that city, and concurred in by shippers, merchants, exporters and all others interested, have been left entirely aside. What the government has done is to'lend the board a little money. But that is not what the commission suggested, either for Montreal, Quebec or Halifax


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: What did the commission suggest so far as Montreal is concerned?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: If my hon. friend (Mr. Brodeur) asked me that question to'puzzle me, he will not be successful. I would ask him if he knows what they have suggested? For it is only with the greatest difficulty that one can procure a copy of this most valuable report of the commission. You have to hunt around for it, and if it is handed you it is almost with the request to you to ' keep mum.' The commission suggested, with regard_to Montreal, Quebec, Halifax and other Atlantic ports, that they should be made free ports.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The commission said ' national ports.'


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That is the distinction which I have heard my hon. friend make here more than once when we have been discussing the estimates. Does he imagine that by calling these ' national ports ' he is fulfilling the intention of the commissioners? Does he know what a free port means? He does not pretend, surely, that a port where you collect |250,000 of port duties is a free port? The hon. gentleman I prefers spending money in wharfs, such as that at St. Hilaire, alongside the bridge, that tumble down the next year, and in other parts of the province of Quebec


Mr. JOHNSTON.: Where?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is that my hon. friend from Cape Breton? Throughout the province. We need the nationalizing of our national ports, but we cannot have it until we have a change of government.


Richard Blain: I was asking the minister what objection he would have to instructing his department to test samples of cement sent by contractors engaged in work Mr. MONK.
for private individuals and make reports upon them?


William Pugsley: To make tests and give certificates upon which the public could rely in case of contractors engaged in private work all over the Dominion would require a very large staff, and would involve greatly increased expense. Tests would have to be made frequently-perhaps you would have to make tests every two weeks of the cement being turned out by the different manufacturers. As I have said, my mind is not made up against doing this, but I am not prepared to say at this time that it is desirable. That is as far as I can go to-night.


Alexander Ferguson MacLaren: Will the department undertake to test material for the manufacture of cement-rock, clay, marl, etc.?
Mr. PUGSLEY'. That has not been done.


Alexander Ferguson MacLaren: In the event of this vote being passed, will it be done?


William Pugsley: There is no present intention.


Richard Blain: Could the hon. minister give us a list of the manufacturers who have supplied cement to the government during the past year?


William Pugsley: I have not that information here, but I could get it and submit it for the information of my hon. friend and of the committee.


Richard Blain: At some future sitting of the committee?


William Pugsley: Yes, and it might be discussed on some other item.


Mr. BARR.: Is cement purchased bv tender?


William Pugsley: Where it is for the use of the department it is always where any considerable quantity is required, purchased by tender. And cement purchased by a contractor who is carrying on a government work must stand the test provided for it.
Mr. FOSTER, How long has this cement testing laboratory been in operation?


William Pugsley: My deputy informs me that he thinks it was established in 1892.


Mr. FOSTER.: On what scale? Cement has always been tested, I know. But it would seem, comparing the past year's expenditure with the present vote, that this is a rather ambitious attempt to have a permanent aud thorough testing machinery.


William Pugsley: It is, for, as the hon. gentleman is aware, the use of cement has vastly increased during a few years. Concrete is now being used, I was going to say universally, where stone was used- for sidewalks, for whole buildings, for bridge piers and abutments, and so on.

In the past eight months the samples tested numbered i,156, an increase of 330 over last year.


George Eulas Foster: Does the department test other cement than that used on government work?


William Pugsley: It is limited to the participants in government work.


George Eulas Foster: Where is the testing
done?


William Pugsley: In Ottawa.


George Eulas Foster: What expenditure has there been on plant and machinery?


William Pugsley: I cannot give that information to-night. There is a staff of five or six. The expenditures for improvements were $3,866 out of a total vote of $5,000.


George Eulas Foster: And the bon. gentleman is asking $5,000 this year. What is he going to do with it?


William Pugsley: The requisition comes from Mr. Perley, who has charge of the work. He reports that he is desirous of procuring the latest and most approved appliances in use for testing the strength of cement, and this is also to pay his expenses in visiting the best laboratories in the United States. His desire is to perfect his system here to the highest degree possible.	>


George Eulas Foster: What machinery does he call for and what estimate does he make ?


William Pugsley: He has not given an estimate in detail.


George Eulas Foster: The minister should have details of this. Surely the officer does not say : I want $5,000 and I will spend it in a proper way.


William Pugsley: Of course the desire is first to ascertain just what will be the most suitable plant and then submit a statement of what is required and get the authority of the minister for it.


George Eulas Foster: What appliances will be required ?


William Pugsley: That I am not able to tell the hon. gentleman. I am to get some information as to the different manufacturers whose cement has been used by the department during the last year, and I can get this information at the same time.


George Eulas Foster: How long has the minister been able to say that Canadian cement is as good as can be made.


William Pugsley: My information is quite recent.


George Eulas Foster: And it has resulted from this testing ?


William Pugsley: That is the information I get from the testing, that it is, as good as any produced.


George Eulas Foster: And as I understand it the minister does not think it well to have a place where samples of cement can be sent and results published ?


William Pugsley: I am not prepared to say that; it would mean a very large increase of staff and additional expense. The purpose of the government testing is that on our works the cement must be up to a certain standard.


George Eulas Foster: Could you not have a standard test and keep the contractors up to that sample ? Could you not have an initial grade for all the establishments ?


William Pugsley: It would require a great many more tests, instead of 1,100 it would require perhaps 11,000. A test occupies about two weeks.


Mr. J. D. REID.: The remark of the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) about the 30,000 barrels of cement being purchased outside of Canada applies in other cases. I claim that in all such cases we should if possible use our Canadian cement. It gives the Canadian employees work and helps our Canadian industry. How is it that the cement is always purchased from others than the manufacturers?


William Pugsley: That is not the case.


John Dowsley Reid: Here is a sample at page V-174 where the Ottawa Fireproof Supply Company furnished cement although there are cement works right near Ottawa.


William Pugsley: What is the quantity ?


John Dowsley Reid: Sixty barrels and 240 sacks. There is another case at V-163, and you will find the same thing in other cities. This was discussed before the Cas-sels commission the other day. The question was brought up by Judge Cassels, who said :
Practically the country loses the difference between the' wholesale and retail prices. How much would this amount to in the last three
years?


Col.   GOTJRDEAU@: 

Then this $200,000 is spent to secure the fidelity of the faithful?


William Pugsley: Don't you think you are wandering


John Dowsley Reid: The same thing applies in the Public Works Department.


William Pugsley: That does not show it.


John Dowsley Reid: It does because the Minister cannot show the House where he purchased cement direct from the manufacturers.


William Pugsley: Just the other day we asked for a large quantity of cement to

be used on the lock and dam on the Red liver north of Winnipeg and that was supplied direct by the manufacturer at Owen Sound.


John Dowsley Reid: The minister is leading us to believe that he practically purchases direct from the manufacturers.


William Pugsley: Except in small quantities for small work we purchase all our cement by tender and we award the contract to the lowest tenderer provided the cement comes up to the standard required by the government scientist.


Mr.   POSTER@: Could you not buy all of it ?


William Pugsley: Not small quantities.


John Dowsley Reid: Take the International Cement Company for instance, they will sell 60 or 600 or 6,000 bags.
for his department. But while complimenting him, I want to direct his attention to his colleagues.


William Pugsley: Please discuss this item.


Richard Blain: I am discussing this item, because I never could understand why it would be a good policy for the Minister of Public Works to say that the cement used in his department must be manufactured in Canada, while his colleagues say that it was all right to bring it in from Belgium and the United States.


William Pugsley: My colleagues have not said that.


Richard Blain: I asked the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Minister of Railways if they had adopted the same policy as the Minister of Public Works and they said no.


Mr. HARTY.: There is a great deal of difference in the price according to the quantity.


John Dowsley Reid: You can buy from the International Cement Company direct as cheaply as the Ottawa Fireproof Supply Company can. In doing that you save the profit the middlemen make. But I want to say to the minister that when manufacturers gives him a tender, they will give the wholesale price for all he wants during the year. If he asks for tenders from the International Cement Company, they will give him a certain price for the whole year, whether he takes 60 bags at a time of 6,000 bags. I think from the way this is purchased the government is paying a very much higher price than they would if they purchased direct from the manufacturer. I am only instancing that to show that the same system is going on in this department as in the Marine Department, where $200,000 was lost last year.


Richard Blain: The cement the minister has referred to was supplied by the Owen Sound people and sent up near Winnipeg. May I ask the minister if that was supplied after public advertising?


William Pugsley: Yes.


Richard Blain: What does my hon. friend mean by public advertisement ?


William Pugsley: It was published in a sufficient number of newspapers to give the widest publicity to the manufacturers of cement everywhere in Canada.


Richard Blain: Would you state the price ?


William Pugsley: I think the price was 70 cents per bag. Then there is an allowance of 10 cents per bag, which makes 60 cents net. If I remember rightly, that was delivered at the works.


Richard Blain: I wish to compliment my hon. friend on the policy he has laid down Mr. PUGSLEY.


William Pugsley: They said they both bought Canadian cement.


Richard Blain: No, I asked the Minister of Railways if, in the purchase of cement, he specified that it must be of Canadian manufacture.


George Perry Graham: I told my hon. friend something that he could not possibly construe into what he says now, if he wishes to be fair, that while I could not say that was in the specification, as a mater of fact we did purchase Canadian cement.


Richard Blain: That is all very nice for an answer. The Minister of Public Works in answer to my question stated that the policy of his department was to specify in tenders that the cement must be of Canadian manufacture. I am asking him whether that policy applies to other departments, and I would like some member of the government to say to the House now why, if that is good policy for one department, it is not good policy for every department. It is all very well for the Minister of Railways to say that he has been purchasing Canadian cement, but there is no saying what he might do to-morrow,
I repeat that there is sufficient competition among all the cement manufacturers to supply all the cement required for the public works of this country in every department, and I say that should be the policy of every department.


William Pugsley: Does not my hon. friend see that that has not been found necessary apparently in the Railway Department and the Marine and Fisheries Department, because they have always found that the lowest tenderers were Canadians.


Richard Blain: I do not so understand it. But when my hon. friend is bringing down the information asked for perhaps he will supply to the committee a list of all the cement manufacturers in Canada that have

supplied cement to the government during the last twelve months.
Mr. PUiGSLEY. In the Public Works Department ?


Richard Blain: No, I do not wish to confine it to the Public Works. I repeat the request, so that there will be no misunderstanding about it when you come to take up this item again.


William Pugsley: If I look after my own department I have enough to do.


Richard Blain: I am asking now that the government in all the departments furnish the committee with this reasonable information.


William Pugsley: Let this item stand until we get the information.


Samuel Hughes: When the minister is buying cement does he makes a test of its strength ?


William Pugsley: Yes, the strength is taken by the tester.
Engineering branch-salaries of engineers, inspectors, superintendents, draughtsmen, clerks and messengers, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $175,000.


William Pugsley: This amount is $15,000 greater than it was last year. The vote is asked for to make provision for the salaries of the officers mentioned in the item whose services have to be retained year after year in connection with the construction, maintenance and repair of harbour and river works, slides and booms, roads and bridges, and also surveys and examinations in all parts of the Dominion. The increase is caused by the yearly increase in the staff. I may say that quite a number of years ago, I think when Sir Hector Langevin was minister, he organized what might be called the non-permanent branch of the department, and that was organized more systematically by Mr. Hyman. It is divided into first, second, third and fourth classes, in the same way as those who are actually on the civil service in the Public Works Department. Those who are in the civil service form but a small proportion of the whole. These consist of engineers and assistant engineers, draughtsmen, clerks, superintendent of dredging and his assistants, in fact a very large number of officials throughout the Dominion, all connected with the work of engineering or the architect's branch. It comprises almost the entire staff of the department, both inside and out, with the exception of between thirty and forty persons. The total amount which was required for 1907-8 was $167,000. The appropriation was $160,000 and I obtained in the supplementary estimates of last year $7,000. The vote required for the present year is $180,000. This has been made up very carefully, taking into account all the increases. I am asking for $175,000 and I
shall have to ask for a further amount of $5,000 in the supplementary estimates.


John Dowsley Reid: This is quite a large amount, and if it were to be the total amount to be used for that purpose we might be satisfied. But, the minister will remember that last year he spent over $100,000 for draughtsmen outside of this vote.


William Pugsley: No.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, he gave it to outside architects. I remember that one evening my hon. friend from East Simcoe (Mr. Bennett) read a list of the different firms that were asked to make plans for public buildings under the Public Works Department.


William Pugsley: This pays the salaries for all those who are specified in the list that I have here.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, but these men are in the department for the purpose of making these plans. I understand the minister has a staff of architects and draughtsmen who are employed making plans for different buildings throughout the Dominion. Am I not right?


William Pugsley: That is right, not only public buildings, but harbour works.


John Dowsley Reid: If you have a staff for preparing the plans for public buildings and harbours how is it that a good deal more than half as much again is paid to outside engineers and architects? In one case $25,000 was paid to a man for preparing plans and supervising the erection of a building and in another case $2,000 or $3,000.


William Pugsley: What building was that?


John Dowsley Reid: It was a building at Montreal or Quebec. I will turn it up. My hon. friend from East Simcoe mentioned it.


William Pugsley: Yes, that refers to the erection of an immigration building at Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: Why does the minister not employ twenty or thirty more men and have a sufficient staff to do this work? The idea that a man should get $25,000 for making plans and looking after a building in the course of construction ! Surely the minister could get a man as competent as he for $5,000 a year.


William Pugsley: The amounts which my hon. friend refers to were made up by reason of the exceptional employment of certain architects and engineers. I am inclined to think that during the past year he will find the amount paid out in this way has been very much less, that it is comparatively small. The decision which I have come to is that as far as possible I shall have all the plans and specifications

prepared in the department. But there may be a special work which requires special knowledge, such as the work upon which Mr. Vautelet was employed.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not agree with the minister that this is special work. Surely there must be men in the department who could draw the plans for the immigration shed at Quebec. There was a little building at Belleville and there was nothing exceptional about it. Does the minister say that he has no men in his department who are capable of making these plans?


William Pugsley: Mr. Vautelet was employed to prepare the plan for the construction of the lock and dam upon the Red river. The chief engineer and Mr. St. Laurent informed me that there was no man in the department who had the experience which would enable him to draw the plans and specifications for that work.


Samuel Hughes: What is there special about that work?


William Pugsley: It was a work of a very special character. The Red river rises in the south and runs to the north; therefore It is different from ordinary rivers. The ice melts away at the head waters of the river before it moves away at the site of this lock and dam. It required a special contrivance to get rid of the water to prevent the country around from being flooded in the spring of the year. If the country were flooded it would result in most serious damage not merely to a large farming district but to the city of Winnipeg.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister know how high the banks of the Red river are at Winnipeg ?


William Pugsley: I know they are not much higher than the water when it is at flood. The Red river rises very rapidly and to a very great height. I believe there is only one place in the world where they have a lock and dam under conditions similar to those at the lock and dam at St. Andrew's.


Samuel Hughes: How far below Winnipeg are the St. Andrew's Rapids?


William Pugsley: About eighteen miles. At all events the matter can be discussed later. My intention is, as far as possible, to have the architectural and engineering work done by the members of the staff.


John Dowsley Reid: Do I understand that the minister intends that there shall be no farming out of this work of preparing plans for buildings and other works?


William Pugsley: As far as possible, yes.


John Dowsley Reid: What does ' as far as possible' mean?


William Pugsley: They are well understood words.


William Pugsley: 


John Dowsley Reid: That leads us to believe there will be no change


William Pugsley: I will let you see next year how this is carried out.
Architectural branch-salaries of architects, inspectors, draftsmen, clerks and messengers, $65,000.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase of $5,000 here?


William Pugsley: There are $2,500 annual increases and $3,600 to cover the cost of new appointments, promotions, etc.


George Eulas Foster: What was spent last year?


William Pugsley: About $60,000.


Air. FOWLER.: Is this money paid for architects alone ?


William Pugsley: It includes the assistant architects, the clerks, Air. Hunter, purchasing agent.


George William Fowler: What does he purchase ?


William Pugsley: That is a mistake, he is a clerk.
Air.'FOSTER. Is he a professional architect ?


William Pugsley: No. His services are utilized for the purpose of examining sites of proposed buildings all over Canada. He is a man of excellent judgment and quite diplomatic, and he has been found exceedingly useful in getting property at the lowest possible price.


George Eulas Foster: Was he instrumental in getting the Dauphin property ?


William Pugsley: No.
Air. FOSTER, You did not employ diplomacy there; you went straight at it ?


William Pugsley: We thought the man we had out there was a very good man.


George William Fowler: How many clerks are paid from this vote ?


William Pugsley: Forty-five.


George William Fowler: Does this include the outside architects ?


William Pugsley: No, just the staff.


Mr. DANIEL.: What does Air. Jordan do?


William Pugsley: He had charge of progress esitmates, he is dead. This vote includes the assistant architects and clerical staff of the architects branch.


George William Fowler: It is a pretty large and expensive staff for the work they have to do.


William Pugsley: 
George William Fowler: Does this include the chief architect's salary?


William Pugsley: No.


George William Fowler: How many are outside of this vote besides the chief architect?


William Pugsley: I think he is the only one, he is on the civil service.


George William Fowler: This branch costs $70,000 a year and in addition to that you spend as much more per year for outside architects.


William Pugsley: It has not been so very much.
Telegraph service-salaries of staff, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: What does that include ?


William Pugsley: The salaries of Mr. Keeley, the general superintendent, one second-class clerk, one third-class clerk, one junior fourth-class clerk, and three inspectors-one for the Yukon, one for the Northwest Territories and one for Quebec and the maritime provinces.


George Eulas Foster: How long has Mr. Gobeil been in the service ?


William Pugsley: Eight or nine years.


George William Fowler: What duties have this staff at headquarters ?
Mr. PUGSLEY\ They have the same duties to perform which would be performed at the headquarters of any telegraph company. The government owns, if I remember rightly, 11,000 miles of telegraph lines in all parts of the country-down the St. Lawrence, in Cape Breton, along the north shore of New Brunswick, all through the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, up to Edmonton and north of Edmonton, in various sections of British Columbia and in the Yukon. We are continually extending the system into remote districts, and constantly making repairs and renewals, and we must have at headquarters a staff to look after that work.


George William Fowler: What is your total income ?


William Pugsley: I have not that information at the moment, but will get it.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I notice that some of the headquarters staff are classed as nonprofessional and others as professional. What does that mean ?


William Pugsley: Those who are professional are practical telegraph men. Those who are non-professional are clerks.'


John Waterhouse Daniel: What is the object of having professional telegraphers on the staff at headquarters ?


William Pugsley: One can easily see that it would be desirable for many reasons to
have one or more persons who are expert telegraphers. Their knowledge would be very valuable in connection with different questions that would come up in different parts of the country.


George William Fowler: Simply because they can pound keys.


William Pugsley: No, because they know the business.


George William Fowler: It seems to me that operating a telegraph key and knowing* something about the management of a telegraph line are two different things.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I notice that one who is spoken of as a senior fourth-class professional gets a salary of $2,000 per annum. What would be the salary of a first-class professional ?
Mr. PUGSLEY'. Mr. Keeley, the general superintendent, gets $2,300; Mr. Gobeil, who is superintendent of the Yukon system, gets $2,000; Mr. Macdonald, superintendent of the system in the Northwest Territory, which includes Alberta and Saskatchewan, gets $2,000; Mr. Crean, superintendant of the Quebec and maritime provinces system, gets $1,700.


Mr. BRODER.: Where does Mr. Gobeil reside-in the west or in Ottawa ?


William Pugsley: In Ottawa.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Where is Mr. Charleson ?


William Pugsley: He is not connected with the telegraph service. He is inspector of buildings.


George William Fowler: Why does the inspector of the Yukon telegraph line reside in Ottawa ? It is not much wonder that it is down very much.
Mr. PUGSLEY7.	I may say that the
Yukon system is a very large system, which requires a good deal of looking after, and just as soon as the session is over I intend to look into the whole question of that system. Just at present I would not like to say whether it would be better that the person giving special attention to it should be on the ground or at Ottawa. Of course, there are assistant superintendents, very good men, out there engaged in the work. It is just possible that the work could be done there to advantage uuder the direction of the general superintendent. That is a matter I intend to inquire into carefully.


George William Fowler: Surely the minister knows that it is absolutely impossible for a man living in Ottawa to act as inspector of a Y'ukon telegraph liue. An inspector is for the purpose of inspecting, and he should be in a position to go over the line.
Mr. PUGSLEY7. I was about to say a word about Mr. Gobeil. He was appointed specially to look after the Yukon system.

He has been to the Yukon and has examined into that system carefully and reported upon it. At present we are keeping him in Ottawa. It is possible he may be sent off to the Yukon. Or it may be that we shall avail ourselves to better advantage of his services here and send to the Yukon a gentleman from British Columbia.


Mr.   POSTER@: What work has he been doing here?


William Pugsley: He is in the office of Mr. Keeley, the general superintendent, and assisting him in the work to be done here.


George William Fowler: Why this increase in the vote?


William Pugsley: It is only $2,500, and is accounted for by the salary increases and by some further assistance possibly required.
Public Works-temporary clerical and other assistance, inclusive of services of all persons required who were first employed after July 1, 1882, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $75,000.


William Pugsley: Most of these clerks are on the non-permanent staff. Under the organization perfected by Mr. Hyman when minister, they are, to all intents and purposes, as permanent as though under the Civil Service Act. They are divided into first, second, third and senior and junior fourth classes. There are altogether 83 under this vote.


George William Fowler: Why the increased vote?


William Pugsley: There are statutory increases of $3,400, four additional employees and also possible promotions of $1,250.


George Eulas Foster: This does not take in the architectural and engineering staff?


William Pugsley: So ; it Includes the secretary's branch, the minister's office, the accountant's branch and parliamentary estimates and appropriations.


George Eulas Foster: Who is there in the minister's office?


William Pugsley: Secretary and _a clerk.


George Eulas Foster: Not the minister's private secretary ?


William Pugsley: Yes. She is a clerk who is also private secretary. The private secretary is in the Civil Service branch.


George Eulas Foster: Does the minister have two private secretaries?
(Mr. PUGSLEY. No, but there are two typewriters who are also in the minister's office.


George Eulas Foster: What new persons have been brought in during the past year?


William Pugsley: Mr. A. Winslow, Miss MaeNeill, Miss Jones, Mrs. Nutting and Miss Lillian Nicholson. There were three Mr. PUGSLEY.
temporarily employed, Mr. Sauriol, Mr. McGovern and Miss Annie Macleod.


George Eulas Foster: Is Mr. McGovern a young person?


William Pugsley: Yes, quite young.
Public Works-technical books of reference and other publications, purchase of, $500.


William Pugsley: This is a small vote for the purpose of buying books and publications.


George William Fowler: How much money did you spend last year ?


William Pugsley: We spent $412.82.


George Eulas Foster: This vote does not seem to have any reason for its existence when there is a vote for contingencies. Last year, for instance, out of this vote you bought a Cassells English-French dictionary, $1.50; 30 copies of the Supply Bill, $4.85 ; Montreal directory, Toronto directory and other things. These are not technical works and should be included in the vote for contingencies.


William Pugsley: I venture to say this vote has existed for forty years. If you strike it out, the expenditures will have to come out of some other vote.


George Eulas Foster: But that is what your vote for contingencies is for. Why have votes scattered all over, and, under a vote for technical works, buy copies of the Supply Bill?


William Pugsley: That was only $4.85.


George Eulas Foster: But it is so petty a matter that it would be better to make an end of it.


William Pugsley: Possibly it might be better to arrange the vote some other way.


George William Fowler: What did you buy out of this vote, for instance?


William Pugsley: There was a dictionary of architecture.


George William Fowler: I am glad of that. I think I would allow them to buy all the books of that kind they can use, because they need instruction. I would like to make sure you are not buying ' Collier's Weekly ' or any of these new Liberal publications out of this vote.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The largest item of expenditure under this vote is * sundries, $313.'


George William Fowler: That has a very suspicious sound.


William Pugsley: I have not the details-of that.


John Waterhouse Daniel: That is the large item in the whole thing.


George William Fowler: The only technical book is one costing $30.


William Pugsley: Take Langelier's 'Droit Civil.'


George Eulas Foster: Is that technical?


William Pugsley: It would be in connection with contracts in Quebec.


George William Fowler: What are the sundries ?


William Pugsley: I do not know, but I will find that out.


George William Fowler: Will you bring down the details?


William Pugsley: Yes.
Deep Waterways Commission, including payments authorized notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $20,000.


George Eulas Foster: Would the minister state what has been done and what this commission has cost to date ?


William Pugsley: I cannot say what it has cost to date. The balance of the remuneration to the commissioners is that they receive pay for the days they are actually engaged. Mr. Gibbons, of London, is chairman of the commission, the other commissioners being Mr. Coste and Mr. Stewart, the Dominion hydrographer.


George Eulas Foster: What has been done so far ?


William Pugsley: I do not know the details of what they have done, but they have made a joint inquiry into the use of water at Niagara and have come to a joint agreement. They have done the same thing at Sault Ste. Marie. They have considered other questions and have agreed upon a draft treaty laying down certain principles with regard to the use of international waters, which, if adopted by the United States and Great Britain, would prove of very great value in settling disputed questions with regard to international waters and boundary waters upon a proper and just basis. They have devoted a great deal of attention to their work, the commission is a good one, and they have been very diligent in the discharge of their duties. The representatives of the United States are Mr. Clinton and Mr. Haskill.


George Eulas Foster: I do not understand from the minister's meagre explanation the scope of the commission or whether it is to be everlasting. I know it costs about $20,000 a year. Mr. Gibbons gets $50 a day for his work and for three days correspondence he gets $150. What does that mean ?


William Pugsley: That would mean, I suppose, that keeping track of his correspondence he would consider that he had actually devoted three days to it. on days when toe commission was not actually sitting.


George Eulas Foster: Messrs. Coste and Stewart are paid $25 a day. They are government 352


REVISED
[Stage Direction]
officials, are they not? What salary do they get ?
William Pugsley: Mr. Coste is an employee of the department, but his salary, if I remember right, is quite small in proportion to his abilities-I think only $2,500-and it was agreed that for this work he was to be allowed extra. Mr. Stewart is not in my department and I do not know his salary.


George William Fowler: Do their salaries as officials in the departments continue while they are serving on the commission ?


William Pugsley: That would apply to Mr. Coste who has a permanent salary, and I presume It would apply to Mr. Stewart.


George William Fowler: They sit when they like ?


William Pugsley: They sit in conjunction with the American commission. Of course, they may sit separately for purposes of conference, but that is very seldom.


George William Fowler: Under what circumstances would Mr. Gibbons require three days' continuous correspondence ?


William Pugsley: He would necessarily have correspondence not only with members of toe American branch of the commission, but also probably with toe Prime Minister, with the Minister of Public Works and with the secretary. The correspondence would be of a very important character. Among other duties he has been in personal communication with the British ambassador at Washington. I know he has given very close attention to his work which is of great importance and requires great care and delicacy of treatment.


George William Fowler: He would write occasional letters to the Prime Minister and to the British ambassador and makes up his mind that he should have three days' pay for his services.	.


William Pugsley: I do not think he would charge three days unless he was three days at toe work.


George William Fowler: That would be a great deal of correspondence.


William Pugsley: He only charges us for three days during toe whole year.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The members of the board charge for only 5 days, the chairman's time being 41 days, but toe secretary has charged for 212 days. Would the minister explain that ? The members of the board only met 50 days and how could the secretary be on duty 212 days ?


William Pugsley: My hon. friend must remember that the secretary's duties are not confined to the time when he is in actual attendance on the commission. These days would be his attendance at his office in Ottawa, preparing the records of the


EDITION
[Stage Direction]
meetings, and attending to tlie correspondence as secretary of the commission.
John Waterhouse Daniel: 
William Pugsley: I presume be was.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I understand that he is employed on ' La Presse ' of Montreal.


William Pugsley: But he is here continuously. I have seen him a great deal. Does my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) mean to say that he was on ' La Presse ' in 1906-7 ?	'


John Waterhouse Daniel: That is what I understand.


Haughton Lennox: Where is Mr. Louis Coste ?


William Pugsley: He was here to-day. Ordinarily he is at Port Colborne.


Haughton Lennox: That is the gentleman who has been described by the minister as well as he could, but he found it difficult adequately to describe his eminent services. We have had some illustration of them. This is the hon. gentleman who lent his services in his private capacity to a company in connection with the Collingwood dry dock. He was engaged by the government at that time at a salary of $2,400 a year, and was supposed to give his entire services to the government. During that time the Collingwood dry dock people, under some plea of satisfying the government, saw fit to engage the services of this gentleman, and in a period of less than six months time, in that capacity, still remaining in the service of the government, he earned $3,500 from this private company, and subsequently the government, for reasons I have not been able to fathom, saw fit to employ that same gentleman to value these works as between that company, a private corporation, and the government.
I have not caught exactly what his services have been in this outside work. Has he been paid an extra allowance tor that while his salary was running at the same time ?


William Pugsley: He is on the International Waterways Commission.


Haughton Lennox: He is also paid his regular salary during that time, I presume ?


William Pugsley: I explained that his salary was quite small.


Haughton Lennox: Not small, if he is dividing his time in the wray he was a year or two ago. His salary ought to be a good deal smaller. It ought not to be accruing at all. because the spectacle of a public official engaged by this government, going to work in the service of private parties who are seeking a bounty from the public, and subsequently to that being employed by the government to value those very works, together witli a lot of other circumstances the minister has probably heard


William Pugsley: related in this House, would seem to indicate that instead of his not receiving enough he has received too much.


William Pugsley: I do not know the circumstances to which my hon. friend refers. But I have always understood that Mr. Coste is a gentleman who stands very high in his profession; he is a man of integrity and honour, and a man wTho, if he were to engage in outside employment, would be able to command a very high salary. That is his reputation. I do not know whether anything occurred which my hon. friend speaks of, which would be calculated to change one's opinion, I am not familiar with those facts. All I say in regard to Mr. Coste is that when I became minister I found he was engaged on the works at Port Colborne at a salary of $2,500, and he was also a member of this commission, being paid for the time he was actually engaged in the work. He has also been engaged at different times to perform special work for the department. Mr. Coste was appointed some 20 or 30 years ago, under the old government, and he rose to the position of chief engineer. Those who are acquainted with him speak in very high terms cf his skill and his ability.


Haughton Lennox: So far as his ability is concerned, I have nothing to say against it. But I think the minister will recognize, it is a sound proposition that we should not pay officials in two capacities where we can possibly avoid it. When an official takes a salary of $2,500, or more, or less, he should understand that as a rule his whole services belong to the government.


Richard Blain: The chairman of the Deep Waterways Commission is Mr. Geo. C. Gibbons, of London. He was paid by the government last year $2,200. I am not going to criticise the ability of Mr. Gibbons. I assume he has sufficient ability to discharge well the duties assigned to him. But I want to direct the minister's attention to the policy of his government in respect of men receiving salaries and who take an active part in elections. If my hon. friend is not informed, he can easily learn from his colleagues, that Mr. Geo. C. Gibbons, of London, is one of the most active politicians to be found in western Ontario. He figured in a recent investigation that took place, and which discredited all the people of Ontario, to some extent. I want to ask the minister whether he thinks it is right that a gentleman occupying the position of chairman of the Deep Waterways Commission should be an active partisan.


William Pugsley: Is my hon. friend referring to something that took place some years ago ?


Richard Blain: No, within the last two-years.


William Pugsley: Mr. Gibbons was not appointed more than a year ago.


Richard Blain: Perhaps he was appointed because of his previous activity for the Reform party in the London election.


William Pugsley: I think he is a very able man.


Richard Blain: I am not discussing his ability. Indeed, I rather complimented him upon his ability. I am asking my hon. friend whether he thinks it is good policy to reward all these politicians by placing them on important commissions of this kind, or whether he does not think that men who are less active in politics would be more acceptable to the public. I do not know when this gentleman was appointed but during the investigation which took place in London his excuse for the activity of his party, including himself, was that they had to tight the devil with fire.


Mr. PUGS LEY.: That is a very good thing to try on the devil.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend must have had soipe experience in the east; I do not know. I want to ask my hon. friend whether he thinks Mr. Gibbons should have the right, receiving more than $2,000 a year as he does, to be an active partisan.


William Pugsley: I do not understand from any statement which my hon. friend has made that Mr. Gibbons has since he, was appointed to this position, taken an active part in politics. I have always made it a rule not to decide what I should do until the circumstances which necessitate it shall arise?


Richard Blain: That is a very nice policy but it does not quite reach my question. I am asking my hon. friend whether this gentleman, being in the employ of the government, should have liberty to take an active part in politics.


William Pugsley: But you do not say that he is taking an active part now.


Richard Blain: Will the policy laid down by the right hon. the leader of the government that a man in the employ of the government may vote but must not take an active part in politics apply to Air. Gibbons or will he be permitted to do as he wishes?


William Pugsley: I will answer that in the sweet by-and-by.


Richard Blain: But my hon. friend has more to answer in the sweet by-and-by than he will be able to answer.


George Eulas Foster: Better not pile them up.


Richard Blain: When we have the item before us, is a good time for the minister to lay down the policy of the government. It is important that we should know whether this gentleman is to have the right to take an active part in politics. Within a few 3524
months we are to have a general election irn Canada.


William Pugsley: Are we really?


Richard Blain: I am assuming that is correct from the large quantity of literature that is being sent out at the post office.
An hon. A1EMBER. Who is sending it out?


Richard Blain: Hon. gentlemen opposite are sending their share because we see the twenty page pamphlet going out by the thosuauds every day, and I am assuming that we are within reach of the general election. However, I have nothing to sav about that, and it is not my business. 1 think the minister should say if it is his policy to allow these men to be on the payroll and at the same time take an active part in politics? This gentleman was mentioned in the newspapers as a candidate when Air. Hyman resigned.


William Pugsley: If he is a candidate he will have to resign his position.


Richard Blain: We are quite aware of that, but it is a very easy thing for this gentleman, receiving his salary, to take an active part in politics.


Duncan Ross: I think the hon. gentleman is getting into deep water now.


Richard Blain: Well, I did not know tlpit I was. Perhaps my hon. friend can help me out.


Duncan Ross: I can assure my hon. friend that I would not help him out if I could.


Richard Blain: I would suppose that my hon. friend would have his time pretty fully occupied by helping himself out of deep water. My hon. friend has to answer his own people in the west. They have asked him and his colleagues to resign.


Duncan Ross: That is the second time that the hon. gentleman has made that statement. I denied it, I deny it the second time and he ought to withdraw it. Aly people never asked me to resign.


Richard Blain: Does my hon. friend deny that a public meeting was called in British Columbia, and that the members from that province were asked to resign on the Chinese question ?


Duncan Ross: I certainly deny that there ever was a public meeting held in Yale-Cariboo at which I was asked to resign.


Richard Blain: That is beside the question. My hon. friend says that in his own district there was none, but he knows that in the province he represents there was.


Duncan Ross: No.


Richard Blain: Evidence was given on the floor of the House, and the matter was discussed. However, I do' not care very much because the hon. member will have an opportunity of explaining when the general election comes on. Perhaps my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works, if he is not able to answer my questions put to-night, will answer in the sweet by-and-by.


William Pugsley: Yes, I will be glad to tell the hon. gentleman what my view is.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I would like the minister to look at page V-248 under the head of 'travel of commissioners':
Cote, Thomas, vouchers B. 1490, 175, 7, outstanding, $171.77.
With regard to the members of the commission the details are given, the number of days they were travelling, the charge for living expenses and matters of that kind, but with regard to Mr. C6te there are no particulars given except a reference to certain vouchers. It does not state what the amount is for and he really charges more than all the others. I would like the minister to explain what these vouchers refer to and what ' outstanding ' refers to.


William Pugsley: I cannot give the information to nly hon. friend now. Mr. C6t& is the secretary, and he would be called upon to make disbursements in connection with the commission.


George Eulas Foster: But this is travel.


William Pugsley: There would be various expenses of the commission.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It does not state what it
Is.


William Pugsley: No. But, I will get the information for my hon. friend. I will get copies of the vouchers.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is Mr. Cote still secretary?


William Pugsley: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: This is really a very important vote. Under,,what minister is this being carried out-the Minister of Public Works ?


William Pugsley: The Minister of Public Works.


George Eulas Foster: I thought so. We are called upon to vote $20,000. We have already voted $20,000 and I do not know how much was expended. I asked my hon. friend in the first place how much was expended and the minister was not able to say.
Mr. PUGSLEY7. I was going to tell you when 1 was interrupted.


George Eulas Foster: Well I had better put these before the committee. Then I asked the minister what had been done. The min-Mr. D. ROSS.
ister was not in a position to state what has been done. I then asked the minister as to what it was proposed to do. Is this going on ? How7 far is it going on ? What ground is to be covered ? What is the scope of the commission ? When we have only this opportunity of discussing this Deep Waterways Commission I think we should have some adequate explanation of the matter. These men are being employed for so many days each year. They are paid at a certain rate and last year pretty nearly $13,000 were expended. Mr. Gibbons gets 41 days' pay and Mr. Coste 51 days pay. How is it that Mr. Coste sat on the commission 51 days and the chairman only 41 clays ? Mr. King gets 50 days' pay. YVhat is the explanation of Mr. Thomas Cote being paid 210 days at $10 a day when the commission under the chairman only sat 41 days ? There is no explanation of that given in the Auditor General's Report. Then we have 15,300 copies of the report printed by the London ' Advertiser ' and 5,000 apparently printed elsewhere. Is that the same report of the same commission ?


William Pugsley: Of this $20,000, $10,000 is a revote. Last year there was expended $11,997. Mr. Coste is the engineering expert and may very well be travelling and making expert inquiry when there was no actual sitting of the commission.


George Eulas Foster: He may be but was he ?


William Pugsley: My deputy tells me he was.


George Eulas Foster: Who certifies to 212 days work ?


William Pugsley: The payment would be made on the certificate of the chairman.


George Eulas Foster: Has the chairman given a certificate of each one of these ?


William Pugsley: I think so.


George Eulas Foster: Is it so ?
Mr. PUGSLEY". I am informed it is so. I do not suppose my hon. friend is in ignorance of what these commissioners are doing. I think we all know pretty well what the International Waterways Commission is doing for the reason that there was a vote for this service previously and the whole country has been apprised that they have been for a considerable time engaged in the work of settling questions in connection with the international waterways.


Samuel Hughes: Would the minister tell us what conclusion the commission has arrived at in regard to the approaches to the Sault Ste. Marie canal from the Canadian side? I suppose the minister is aware that the cutting through the Hay channel has lowered the water in the international channel. Have Canadian vessels the right of way through that channel ?


William Pugsley: My deputy states he does not think the commission has sat upon that question as yet. I believe a report of the commission has been submitted to the House and quite recently a further report has been made which X think has also been presented.


George Eulas Foster: The minister has taken up five minutes telling how much everybody knows about this commission and he has ended by demonstrating that he knows nothing about it himself. Surely he can give us a short statement as to what the commission has done, what it purposes doing this year and how long this thing is supposed to last ?


William Pugsley: One of the most important works the commission has been engaged in is in endeavouring to settle the question as to the use of the waters of the Niagara river at the falls, I am sure ny hon. friend knows what they have been doing there.


George Eulas Foster: What have they been doing ?


William Pugsley: They have agreed upon the terms of a treaty with regard to that. Whether it has been ratified by the congress 1 do not know ?


George Eulas Foster: Have they been making a treaty ?


William Pugsley: They have agreed upon a draft treaty which will determine the quantity of water each country may use.


Samuel Hughes: Have they done anything about the Sault Ste. Mane canal .


William Pugsley: They have been considering it but X understand they have not reported upon it. They have been dealing with international waters and what is of the utmost importance they have agreed upon a draft as, to the general principles which shall govern the use and diversion ot international streams. They are now engaged in settling the boundary line between the United States and Canada in the River
St. Lawrence.


George Eulas Foster: Have they to determine the boundary ?


William Pugsley: Not to determine where the boundary is fixed by law but to locate it where it is uncertain.
across the continent she wanted to use the canal, if the steamers could not traverse this international waterway where would we find ourselves ? That is a very important matter which I think the minister -should look into.


George Eulas Foster: Do I understand that these gentlemen are delimiting the water boundaries between the United States and Canada ? We had a discussion here the other day with reference to the boundaries and I understood from the explanations given by the Minister of the Interior that his commission was for that purpose, and that it had commenced with the boundary line between New Brunswick and the state of Maine, and intended to take the work in sections clear up to the boundary between Alaska and the Yukon Territory. We cannot have two commissions doing the same work. That is a commission of scientific men. I do not understand that these gentlemen are delimiting the boundary between Quebec and the states bordering on Quebec.


William Pugsley: That is what I understand they are doing.


George Eulas Foster: In what way? They are not surveyors or scientific men.


William Pugsley: They are engaging experts.


George Eulas Foster: They did not pay any experts last year. Is this a new branch, of business ? I do not understand that it is in their commission. I believe the minister is drawing on his imagination.


William Pugsley: No, that is in their powers.


George Eulas Foster: What are they doing on that line? Is there a boundary between Canada and the United States along the St. Lawrence river? If so, are they delimiting it-staking it out? If there is not a boundary, are they studying up the treaties and marking the boundary?


William Pugsley: I am informed that they are proceeding to locate the boundary between the United States and Canada in the chain of lakes which form the St. Lawrence system, and they are to have a meeting in Buffalo to-morrow with a view to determining what procedure they shall adopt in connection with that work.


Samuel Hughes: This is a most important question. Large steamers cannot traverse the old international boundary waters because the American government made a cutting to shorten the distance which has had the effect of lowering the water in the approach to the canal on the Canadian side. Large steamers must traverse this American cutting. Suppose Britain became involved in war and as an auxiliary means of transporting munitions


George Eulas Foster: There is already a boundary line between us and the United States.


William Pugsley: There is a boundary fixed by law, but it is not located.


George Eulas Foster: Are they flagging it?


William Pugsley: I presume that where there are islands they will fix monuments. I do not know whether they will have any buoys in the water. They will use theirmil

own judgment. As to the details, I have no information.


George Eulas Foster: Is that included in their commission?	.


William Pugsley: I understand that it is.


Robert Laird Borden: The boundary between Canada and the United States through the lakes is fixed by treaty, is it not ?


William Pugsley: Yes, and the commission is to locate it.


Robert Laird Borden: The only way to locate it, I understand, would be to place monuments of .some kind. 'They might mark it on charts.


William Pugsley: I do not see why they should not agree upon a chart which would be the work of the joint commission and would be adopted by the two governments.


Mr.   I@: What is the date of their last report?


William Pugsley: Two or three weeks ago they submitted a report.


Samuel Hughes: Is this commission going to have anything to do in regard to the boundary between Canada and the United States among the islands of the Pacific ocean?


William Pugsley: I think not.


George Eulas Foster: What is the particular work you are going to charge them with this year? I understand that they have finished the Niagara work, having made an agreement between themselves, which to become operative must be put in the form of a treaty between the United States and Great Britain?


William Pugsley: Yes. It is impossible to state exactly what work they will be called on to do. But let me give my hon. friend an illustration of the work that has come to them. Some time ago a company obtained a charter from the United States Congress or from the legislature of the state of New York authorizing the building of a dam and the creation of a water-power on the St. Lawrence. That was referred to the International Waterways Commission for their report. There was an application also for power to erect a dam in the Rainy river district. That was referred to the" International Waterways Commission, and at their suggestion it was referred bv this government fdirectly to Washington. Then there was an application from a large number of people on the Richelieu river for the doing of a certain work there, and the plans and specifications were referred by the government to the Internationa] Waterways Commission to ascertain if there would be any objection by the government
the United States to these works on the Richelieu river, which takes i1 s risa in the


William Pugsley: United States. The joint commission reported that there was no objection, and the government is proceeding with the work. These are illustrations of the class of work the commission undertake in addition to the work directly assigned to them.


George Eulas Foster: That opens up a different subject. I do not suppose that parliament understood that the commission was to make reports on anything that the government thought ought to go to them. I think they were appointed with certain specific powers. What my hon. friend outlines now looks to the permanent sitting of this commission for the purpose of making any reports the government may wish from time to time to have made for their information. I suppose this commission was appointed to act in conjunction with the United States Commission appointed for the same purpose?


William Pugsley: When I. said that these matters were referred to the commission, I meant the joint commission.


George Eulas Foster: This commission was appointed to work in conjunction with the commission appointed by the United States government. Then they will do about the same class of work as has been committed by the United States government to their commission?


William Pugsley: Quite so.


George Eulas Foster: I find that this is what was to be done under the United States order :
The President of the United States is hereby requested to invite the government of Great Britain to join in the formation of an international commission, to be composed of three members from the United States and three who shall represent the interests of the Dominion of Canada, whose duty it shall be to investigate and report upon the conditions and uses of the waters adjacent to the boundary lines between the United States and Canada, including all of the waters of the lakes and rivers whose natural outlet is by the River St. Lawrence to the Atlantic ocean, also upon the maintenance and regulation of suitable levels, and also upon the effect upon the shores of these waters and the structures thereon, and upon the interests of navigation by reason of the diversion of these waters from or change in their natural flow; and, further, to report upon the necessary measures to regulate shell diversion, and to make such recommendations for improvements and regulations as shall best subserve the interests of navigation in said waters. The said commissioners shall report upon the advisability of locating a darn at the outlet of Lake Erie, with a view to determining whether such dam will benefit navigation, and if such structure is deemed advisable, shall make recommendations to their respective governments looking to an agreement or treaty which shall pro- . vide for the construction of the same, and they ' shall make an estimate of the probable cost.

These are the duties which are imposed upon the Commission of three appointed by the United States. Now, the invitation was transmitted in December, 1902, and tiie Canadian government accepted the invitation of the United States and in 1903 the government was informed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies that His Majesty's government had accepted the suggestion of the Canadian ministers with regard to the appointment of Canadian commissioners. And the American members were appointed and the Canadian members were appointed.
I do not find anything in the commission which authorizes them to delimit the boundaries between the United States and Canada. That was given to an entirely different commission, the commission which is working under the Minister of the Interior, which is a scientific commission, and has undertaken the location of the whole boundary from the line between Maine and New Brunswick to Alaska and the Yukon. And the minister gave very extended information in answer to inquiries from myself of the different sections into which this was divided and how the work had progressed. I would like to know where the Minister of Public Works found his authority for putting his men to work to delimit that boundary along the St. Lawrence river. It goes on to give certain subjects which have been taken up.
1.	The proposed diversion southwards by the Minnesota Canal and Power Company, of Duluth, of certain waters in the state of Minnesota that now flow north into the Rainy river and the Lake of the Woods.
2.	The diversion, about a mile and a half east of the town of Sault Ste Marie of part of the waters of the St. Mary's river into the Ray channel entirely through American territory the River St. Mary now forms part of the boundary between the United States and Canada, and the waters of the river are clearly international. The Canadian vessels of necessity are using the Hay channel, but no treaty has been made concerning their right.
3.	Inquiry into the effect of the levels of Lakes Huron and Erie by the construction of the Chicago drainage canal.
i. The building of a dam and other obstructions on the St. John river flowing through the state of Maine into New Brunswick, contrary to the express stipulation of the Ashburton treaty.


William Pugsley: From what is the hon. gentleman reading?


Mr.   POSTER@: Prom the report of 1903?


William Pugsley: Since that time the Secretary of State for the United States directly referred this question of the boundary In Lake Erie to the joint commission.


Mr.   POSTER@: Where does the hon. gentleman find that ?


William Pugsley: In the report which I have received from the distribution office and which must have been laid on the table.
It says that the question of the international boundary of Lake Erie, so far as the United States is concerned was referred to this commission by direction of the Secretary of State of the United States-
-with a view to having the exact international water boundary line on Lake Erie marked by buoys.


Samuel Hughes: What is the object of buoying Lake Erie ?


William Pugsley: To enable the fishermen to readily ascertain the location of the boundary line. I presume that this commission means that it would consider the question of correctly determining the boundary and to fix it in such a way as they may deem most convenient.


Mr.   POSTER@: Which of these subjects to which I have referred have been completed ? Take the first-the diversion of waters flowing north into Rainy river and Lake of the Woods.


William Pugsley: I think they have got through their work there, but I am not sure.


Mr.   POSTER@: Then, as to the second diversion of part of the waters of St. Mary's river into the Hay channel.


William Pugsley: I think they have determined that between themselves as to the division of the water at the Sault.


Mr.   POSTER@: It says

The Canadian vessels of necessity are using the Hay channel, but no treaty has been made concerning their right.
It would seem they were to investigate that subject and have certain rights defined. Has anything been done about the ettect of the level on Lakes Erie and Huron of the Chicago Drainage Canal, which is a most important thing so far as we are concerned .


William Pugsley: On that subject a joint report has been made.


George Eulas Foster: And as to the fourth, the observations on the St. John river ?


William Pugsley: It was considered afterwards by the government of the United States that it did not come within the scope of the commission.


Mr.   POSTER@: Has it been withdrawn?


William Pugsley: It has not been referred -the United States declined to allow that question to be referred.


George Eulas Foster: And how about these other three ?


William Pugsley: I have told the hon. gentleman with regard to the diversion of the water at the Sault. There is a joint report upon the drainage canal in the report of the Minister of Public Works for 1906,

page 173. I suppose the hon. gentleman will not trouble me to read it.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. gentleman might name the subjects and state whether they nave finished them.


William Pugsley: The commission by their various reports made suggestions and recommendations, from which the following conclusions were drawn:
. e great lakes system, including Lake Michigan and Georgian bay, should be made a common highway for the purposes of navigation to the people of both countries.
2.	The right of either country with respect to such waters is the right of user only.
3.	The primary right of user is for domestic uses (including necessary sanitary purposes) and the services of locks and navigation canals.
4.	Subject to these uses, the use for navigation shall be paramount to all others.
5.	No diversion of these waters shall be permitted to the injury of navigation interests, save such diversions as are necessary for the preservation of the public health (sanitary purposes and domestic use) and service of locks of navigation canals.
6.	Where temporary diversions of such waters without injury to the interests of navigation are possible, they should be permitted so that each country, so far as is practicable, shall receive an equal benefit. This principle is applicable to diversions for power purposes in the St. Mary's and St. Lawrence rivers.
7.	As to streams which cross the international boundary, no diversion of such streams or their tributaries should be permitted in either country so as to interfere with the natural flow thereof to the injury of private or public rights in the other country ; nor should any obstruction be permitted in such streams in one country to the injury of public or private rights in the other.
8.	In Niagara river, diversions would not interfere with navigation, but there a special consideration, the preservation of the scenic beauty of the falls, was brought to play. It was found, however, possible to divert about double the quantity of water on the Canadian side to that possible on the other side, without material injury to the scenic effect.
9.	The commission have not, for lack of jurisdiction, suggested any principle governing the use, for irrigation purposes, of waters which cross the international boundary, but some principle should be adopted which would have general application. We respectfully submit that all the principles so far adopted by the commission commend themselves as worthy of adoption.
Those principles were embodied in a draft treaty to which the commissioners of both countries are parties. That is as far as the matter has got. My hon. friend will see that these principles are very important to Canada.


George Eulas Foster: That having been agreed to in both instances, by both commissions, representing the United States and Canada, what action has the government taken to-Mr PUGSLEY.
wards having those principles carried into effect by treaty?


William Pugsley: I do not think it would be proper for me to state what has taken place; that would be a matter for the Prime Minister, but the matter has been a subject of correspondence through the British ambassador at Washington. Of course my hon. friend can understand that there are' general principles laid down there which are very important to both countries if embodied in a treaty. All I feel at liberty to state to-night is that this agreement of the commissioners and Its embodiment in a draft treaty has been the subject of correspondence with the government of the United States through the British ambassador.


George Eulas Foster: And on all those questions there is a substantial agreement between the United States and the Canadian commissioners?


William Pugsley: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And this summer they are going on with the delimitation of the water line boundary.


William Pugsley: Yes.


John Dowsley Reid: Reverting to the dam at Cornwall, I felt much interested in that question and am strongly opposed to it. I understand a petition has been presented to the government to grant this dam across the St. Lawrence river. A company was formed on the American side, the Long Sault Development Company, to which a charter was granted by the government at Washington for that pin-pose, but afterwards it was found that it would come under the juiisdiction of the New York state government and for some reason it was not workable. The company purchased a plant at Cornwall, the St. Lawrence Power Company,! think was the name, and they are applying to the government to get permission to build a dam under that charter. Will the minister promise that before any permission of that kind is granted by order in council or any other manner it will be submitted to parliament so that it may be fullv discussed.


William Pugsley: The Canadian section of the International Waterways Commission appreciate, I know, the great importance of this question and a report has been made by the chairman of the commission of the request. I have had and I know my colleagues have had representations by the shipping federation and the boards of'trade of Montreal and other cities on the St. Lawrence, under most careful consideration.


John Dowsley Reid: They are protesting against it.	6


William Pugsley: Petitioning against it. I can assure my hon. friend that he need not

hare much fear that that request ;will be granted; at all events it will not be granted until there is the fullest opportunity for the general public to be heard, and I think also the matter would come before parliament. X would not like to speak without the sanction of the government, but I think as minister I am quite safe in giving the House that assurance.


John Dowsley Reid: There will be other days when this matter can be brought up.


William Pugsley: Oh, yes.


Samuel Hughes: The minister speaks as if this might possibly be done without the consent of parliament?


William Pugsley: It certainly could not be built on the Canadian side. The legislature of New York might give authority to construct a dam on the American side of the channel.


Samuel Hughes: We could not stop that any way.


William Pugsley: The government would not think of giving permission to erect a dam right across the river.


Samuel Hughes: And the commission would have no authority?


William Pugsley: They would have to come to parliament.


John Dowsley Reid: The minister knows they could build from one Canadian shore to the other and have it entirely in Canadian waters.


William Pugsley: Not without the authority of this parliament.
Mi-. J. D. REID. If the minister says it could not be done without the authority of parliament it is all right. As the minister knows, opposite Cornwall the river is absolutely in Canadian territory. The government could grant the power to build a dam.


William Pugsley: There must first be a charter to build a dam.


John Dowsley Reid: The minister knows that the St. Lawrence Power Company have a charter now from this parliament, thev have a water-power from the Cornwall canal.


William Pugsley: Not power to dam the river.


John Dowsley Reid: They have a dam from the foot of the Cornwall canal across to Shiek's island. If they wished they could extend it across to the Canadian side and dam up the whole river as the Canadians own both sides of the river opposite Cornwall. But I take it for granted that if the government do grant permission, it will be submitted afterwards to parliament for their approval. It is an
important matter. These steamers are going down every day. The Richelieu steamers run the wThole rapids. If the minister was living on the St. Lawrence he would see steamers going down every day, carrying thousands of people from all over the world. It is one of the finest trips in the world. In addition rafts have been going down for the last 50 years; they go down the south Sault instead of the Canadian channel. If the government intend to grant that permission and then bring it befora parliament, we will have the whole matter threshed out.


William Pugsley: I have no thought of permitting any one to dam the St. Lawrence.
International Commission (Red river of the north) Manitoba, $5,000.


William Pugsley: It appears that in 1900 it was proposed to have a commission to investigate conditions upon the Red river. There have been times when a very large section of the country south of the international boundary line and extending up towards Winnipeg have been flooded, and it was thought there might be some means devised to prevent that flooding. It was proposed to appoint a commission for that purpose, and in 1907 an appropriat'on of $5,000 was made for the expenses of the commission. But the commission has never been appointed. I am asking for a revote in case it might be desirable to go , on with the commission.
Monument to memory of the late Sir L. H. Lafontaine and the late Robert Baldwin, $20,000.


Mr. TAYLOR.: This is a revote: what is the reason that it has not bean expended?


William Pugsley: There was a delay in asking for the designs of the proposed monument. Some months ago a number of designs were received and they were submitted to the judgment of what is called the Art Council, an advisory body, to assist in the purchase of pictures and statuary. The council is composed of Sir George Drummond, Mr. Byron Walker, manager of the Canadian Bank of Commerce, and Mr. Boyer, of Montreal. They decided in favour of the design of Mr. H. F. Allward, of Toronto.
Grant towards the erection of a monument at Brantford to commemorate invention of telephone, one-fourth of cost, not exceeding $10,000.


George Taylor: This is a revote. Had not that better be dropped?


William Pugsley: I would not like to take the responsibility of dropping this item. The telephone is one of the greatest Inventions of modern times.


George Taylor: Has there been anything done yet towards the erection of this u:onu-

ment? Is the country committed Jo anything?


William Pugsley: Nothing has been done yet.
To cover balances of expenditures for works already authorized for which the appropriations may be insufficient, p rovided the amount for each work would not exceed $200, $6,000.


William Pugsley: This vote is taken every year. It is for works authir.'z id, but for which the appropriation has been found insufficient. Suppose that a repair for a breakwater is undertaken and tli ra is no special appropriation for the purpose, the expenditure may be taken out of this vote. Last year the same amount was expended on about 30 different buildings and breakwaters in different places.


Samuel Hughes: Before the minister leaves this item for the monument-I do not see an item for a monument to Samuel de Champlain, at Fenelon Falls. I have the promise of the Postmaster General that a monument shall be erected there, and I intend to hold him to his promise. I hope the minister will put a vote In the Supplementary Estimates for that purpose. Fenelon Falls is in the county I have the honour to represent. There is another matter that I want to direct the minister's attention to, and that is in his own city of St. John. There are the remains of an old Huguenot fort across the river at Carleton. I have brought the matter to the attention of the House several times. Some of the old forts are being reclaimed and preserved and I would like to see the minister take steps to have this one reclaimed and preserved. There are only a couple of old houses in one corner of it and it would make a very nice little park for the people of St. John. I hope he will take it into his consideration.


William Pugsley: I will be glad to do that, but I am not at all sanguine that I would be able to persuade my hon. friend the Minister of Finance at this late stage of the session to put any items in the Supplementary Estimates which have not been thought of until to-night.
Some resolutions reported.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
_ Mr. TAYLOR. Before the House adjourns would the minister be good enough to tell us what business will be taken up to-morrow?


William Stevens Fielding: The third reading of the Railway Bill, I think, is set down for Tuesday, we will take up the Bill respecting the use of tobacco by minors and after that Supply, continuing with the estimates of the Minister of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.07 p.m.
George Taylor: Tuesday, June 23, 1908.