1905-01-23

Mr. SPEAKER.: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following communication :
To the Honourable the Speaker of the House of
Commons :
Sir-I have the honour to hereby tender my resignation as a member of the House of Commons for the electoral district of Wright, in the province of Quebec, having elected to sit for the electoral district of Quebec East.
Given under my hand and seal at Ottawa this 20th day of January, 1905.
(Sgd.) WILFRID LAURIER.
Witnesses :
(Sgd.) Sydney Fisher,
C. Fitzpatrick.



V AC ANC Y-C ARLETO N.

Robert Franklin Sutherland: I have received a further communication to the following effect:
To the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons :
Sir,-I, Edward Kidd, of North Gower village, in the county of Carleton, farmer and manufacturer, who was duly elected a member of the said House of Commons for the electoral district of the county of Carleton, hereby declare my intention to resign my seat as said member in this said House of Commons and I do hereby resign the same.
In witness whereof I have hereto before two witnesses set my hand and seal this 19th day of January in the year 1905.
(Sgd.) EDWARD KIDD.
Witnesses :
(Sgd.) Samuel Barker. M.P.,


John W.: Daniel, M.P.
I beg to inform the House that I have issued my warrant in each of these cases for a new election.


Mr. HAGGART.: A warrant for both ?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: Yes.



PAY OF NORTHWEST MOUNTED POLICE.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee to consider proposed resolutions respecting the pay of the Northwest Mounted Police.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
On section 1,
Resolved, That it is expedient to provide that the pay of the commissioner and other members of the Northwest Mounted Police shall not
exceed the amounts following :-
Commissioner of police, per annum .. $3,000 00 Assistant commissioners, per annum..	2,000 00
Superintendents, per annum	 1,800 00
Inspectors, per annum	 1,400 00
Surgeons and assistant surgeons, per
annum	 ,	 1,800 00
Veterinary surgeons, per annum .. ..	1,400 00
Four staff sergeants, per diem	 2 00
Other staff sergeants, per diem ....	175
[Stage Direction]


Other non-commissioned officers, per
diem	 $	1 25
Constables, per diem	 1 00
Special constables and scouts, per diem 1 50 Buglers under 18 years of age, per
diem	 0 50
Working pay to artisans, per diem ..	0 75
John Graham Haggart: What are the changes ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: This resolution was introduced in consequence of the representations which have been made to the government on the floor of this House on both sides, from time to time, advising that the pay of the Northwest Mounted Police should be increased. This matter has been under consideration, and I think we are meeting the public demand and the exigencies of the case in providing for the salaries now set forth in this resolution. The increases are as follows :
Officer.	Present Pay.	Proposed Pay.Commissioner	
Assistant commissioners	$ 2,600 1,000 1.400 1,000 1.400 1,000	*$ 3.000 2.000 1,800 1.400 1,800 1.400Inspectors	
Surgeons and assistant surgeons Veterinary surgeons	
.	
We have four staff sergeants to whom we give $2 a day. Other staff sergeants receive $1.50 a day, and we propose to give them $1.75 a day, an increase of 25 cents a day. Non-commissioned officers receive $1 a day, and we propose to give them $1.25 a day. Constables receive 75 cents a day, and we propose to give them $1 a day. Special constables and scouts we have no right to pay for particularly, but we have paid them from 75 cents to $1.25 a day. We propose to give them $1.50 a day. Buglers under 18 years of age receive 40 cents a day, and we propose to give them 50 cents a day. Working artisans receive 50 cents a day, and we propose to give them 75,cents a day. It is calculated that this will increase the pay of the force by $50,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the strength of the force ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot say what the strength of the force is at the present time. There are 300 in the Yukon, but I cannot say how many in the Northwest Territories. I think there are 600, but perhaps I am mistaken as to that. The force costs $1,000,000 in round numbers, and we will add by this resolution $50,000 to the cost.


John Graham Haggart: Under your resolution you take the power to increase the pay if The SPEAKER.	.
you like. Is it the intention of the government to increase it up to this sum ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Up to this maximum. We do not propose to make the increase in a bulk sum at once, but to gradually increase the pay. We take power to reach the maximum and no more.
On section 2,
Resolved, That the Governor in Council may authorize extra pay and allowances to- be paid to members of the force serving in the Yukon Territory or the unorganized portions of the Northwest Territories.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount of the extra pay in the Yukon?


Wilfrid Laurier: I think it is either 25 cents or 50 cents a day; I forget at the moment. That amount is paid to the constables, and the officers have been given a certain proportion of additional pay which I will be able to state at the next stage.


John Graham Haggart: Would it not be better to have the amount stated in the resolution ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No. Because at the present time we are simply carrying out what has been in force in the Yukon for three or four years. When we sent men to the Yukon it would have been just to give the staff we required the same rate of pay as was given in other sections of the country and we increased the rate generally; we now propose to maintain that same rate.


John Graham Haggart: I do not know under what authority you gave increased pay to the constables in the Yukon.


Wilfrid Laurier: We did it by taking an appropriation for it every year.
Resolutions reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Department of Labour, Civil Government, salaries and contingencies, $20,100.
John Graham Haggart: What is the reason of the increase?


Hon.   S@: I will explain all the increases. The total increases in salaries are $2,450. The vote last year was $16,400. This year it is proposed to ask for salaries, $18,850 an increase of $2,450. This increase is made up as follows:	$100 increase to the deputy
minister; that is under the statute; the deputies go up by $100. Five second-class clerks receive increases of $50 each, which make $250. Provision is made for the promotion of two third-class clerks to junior second-class clerkships, involving an increase of $100, which makes $200. It is proposed to make provision for the appointment

of a new chief clerk as secretary of the department at $1,900- That makes $2,450. All these increases are in the ordinary course excepting the one involved in the appointment of a new officer. The deputy minister is frequently required to be absent from the department in connection with various outside matters, and the work of the department is such that it is necessary to have some person who will be a responsible head of the department in his absence. During the past few years he has been called away to deal with important questions, and during his absence the department is more or less handicapped. No appointment has as yet been decided upon but if parliament passes the vote for the additional clerkship then we will endeavour to appoint a suitable person, a man who will be quite competent to act as deputy during the absence of the deputy himself, and who, whilst the deputy is on duty, will render valuable assistance in carrying on the increasing work of the department.


John Graham Haggart: Is the new chief clerk to be an officer in the department?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: No, it will be an additional appointment to the service.


John Graham Haggart: I suppose you have an Order in Council for the change of the classification of the officer on the report of the deputy?
Sir WILLIAM "MULOCK. Yes, we comply strictly with the Act; a report and recommendation from the deputy which is approved by the head of the department and decided by Council.


John Graham Haggart: It would be well always to submit these reports to the House, before the estimates are passed as they would give the reasons of the department for the change.


William Mulock: I have no doubt that we follow the regular practice, but I do not think it has ever been the practice to bring these reports to the House. I cannot recall any such practice in my experience, but of course there is no objection whatever to it.


Mr. WHITE.: I see a foot-note that this $18,850 or any portion of it may be paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act. What is the meaning of that ?


William Mulock: That is an error. The deputy says it was there in former years before this classification, and has been repeated by the printer ; but it is not necessary, and may' be struck out.
Administration of Justice-Miscellaneous expenditure, including Northwest Territories,. $65,000.


John Graham Haggart: We have no objection to voting any of the ordinary items in the civil service expenditure ; but in regard to all 4i
other matters we have a right to have the Auditor General's Report before passing the votes.


Mr. FTZPATRICK.: My hon. friend knows that the Auditor General never criticises the Department of Justice, and it is not at ail likely that there will be any reference to my department in the report. However, I am of the opinion that the objection taken, if presisted in, is a good one.


Wilfrid Laurier: I may say that on Monday there will be placed upon the table a preliminary report of the Auditor General, which will embrace the Audit Department,. the Customs Department, the Geological Survey, the office of the Governor General's secretary, the Indian Department, the Justice Department, Legislation, the Militia Department, the Post Office Department, the Department of Printing and Stationery, the Privy Council and the Secretary of State.


John Graham Haggart: Then we shall be in a position to consider these items on Tuesday, after we have had an opportunity of seeing the report.
Department of Marine and Fisheries-eight technical officers, $13,300.


John Graham Haggart: There are eight technical officers instead of seven.


Mr. PREFONTAINE.: We moved up one.


John Graham Haggart: What was the necessity of moving him up ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: A technical officer, Mr. Cunningham, was put in the outside service. That is how the change took place.


John Graham Haggart: What reason did the deputy assign for a new officer of that rank ? It is not sufficient to say that a man is at the maximum of his class, and is removed to this position. We must have a report showing the necessity for an increase of that kind.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: All these proceedings were taken. The deputy minister gave the necessary certificate on account of the increased work of the department. The work, has increased considerably during two years, and when that technical officer was removed to the outside service, the deputy minister reported that it was necessary to replace him, and consequently it was done.


John Graham Haggart: Have you the feport of the deputy at hand?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: It is on record and I can place it on the table.


John Graham Haggart: Where there is a change in an office of that kind, you should have the report giving the reasons for the change, especially when the statute requires that to be done.

104r


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I do not know that the statute requires that this statement should be put on the table of the House. It requires that the report should be had from the deputy minister, and that was done. As regards depositing it on the table of the House, I am prepared to do so.


John Graham Haggart: Surely the House is entitled to as much information as Council in reference to the reasons for making this increase.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I do not deny that, but I do not know that It has been customary to place these reports of the deputies on the table of the House. Of course, I have no objection at all to doing so.


Mr. TAYLOR.: I understand from the minister that this technical officer was put on the outside service. If so, why are we voting money for the outside service in this vote ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: We are not voting money for the outside service.


George Taylor: The minister said the technical officer was required for the outside service.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Not at all. I said that we had taken a man from the inside service and placed him in the outside service, and that it was on the report of the deputy minister that this new officer was required.


John Graham Haggart: It is the very opposite that you are doing. You are not taking a party from the inside service and putting him on the outside, but you are taking one from the outside service and putting him on the inside.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: That is what I said.


John Graham Haggart: You said the reverse-Has there been a recommendation from the department for the statutory increases, and has every one got the increase who was recommended for it'!


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Yes.


George Taylor: Last year there were twelve first-class clerks, and now there are eleven in the estimates. I understood the Minister of Justice to say that one of the twelve had been made a technical officer. But the Minister of Marine and Fisheries told us that the technical officer was brought in from outside.


Charles Fitzpatrick: An additional officer has been added to the technical branch. We have to make provision for one additional technical officer, and there is one first-class clerk less. The estimate is for one more technical officer and for one less first-class clerk.


George Taylor: But that is not what the minister of the department told us. He Mr. HAGGART.
said that the technical officer had, been brought from the outside and not from the inside service.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think he said that Cunningham had been transferred to the outside service, but did not say whence he had been taken. As to the construction to be put on the statute, I take issue with my hon. friend from Lanark (Mr. Haggart). The minister comes to parliament and asks parliament to vote an appropriation for an additional officer. The condition upon which parliament votes the appropriation is that full information be given by the minister to the House ; and after parliament has voted the item, it is necessary for the permanent head of the department to make a report to the effect that an additional officer is required, and that the person recommended has the necessary qualifications. But that is not a condition precedent.


John Graham Haggart: I have not looked at the statutes lately, but the practice used to be entirely different. First of all, the deputy head reported what his department required. Then the minister had to get the consent of the Council for the appointment asked for. The voting of the money by parliament was not a condition precedent at all. The power of appointing rests with the Crown. The Crown may appoint, but cannot pay. In the past, when a change was required in the cadre of a department, the report of the deputy head required the sanction of the minister, and then its adoption by the Council. If the Council approved, an estimate was submitted to meet the expenditure. The minister should always be ready in the House to give the reasons which he submitted to the Governor General in Council for the new appointment. As to the other question, the explanation of the Minister of Justice is entirely different from that of the Minister of Fisheries. The latter told us that he took this technical officer from the outside and not from the inside service. What was the need of an other technical officer if you had him already in the department as first-class clerk ? Who was the first-class clerk promoted ? Evidently the minister desired to give additional pay to some first-class clerk who had reached the maximum of his grade, and he took this means of doing it.


George Taylor: Will the Minister of Marine and Fisheries inform me if it was one of the twelve gentlemen who were in the first-class list last year who was promoted to the position of technical officer ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: My hon. friend knows well that no promotion could take place until authorized by parliament. All we are doing is giving authority to the minister to do this in the future.


George Taylor: What does the minister intend doing ? Does he intend taking one of these twelve first-class clerks and making him a technical officer ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: X cannot say at present, but will do for the best.


George Taylor: We ought to know before we vote the money. Last year we provided for twelve first-class clerks, and now are only providing for eleven. Who was the one who was promoted and made a technical officer ?


John Graham Haggart: The House does not authorize appointments or promotions at all That is the function of the Governor General in Council. What the House does is vote the money, and the minister makes the appointment on the approval of the Governor General in Council. Will the minister be kind enough to tell us who the officer is whom he intends to recommend for promotion to the technical branch ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The vote was over expended.


John Graham Haggart: X cannot understand that, and it is impossible to understand it with the explanation the minister gives. How could the vote be over expended ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The vote was $3,000 and it was exceeded by $2,000.


John Graham Haggart: There is an increase of $3,000 in the next item of contingencies, that for printing and stationery. We should have an opportunity of consulting the Auditor General's Report in order to understand how the money has been expended.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: This vote will stand.
Some resolutions reported.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 
John Graham Haggart: What is the meaning of this?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Last year there was only one of the persons-Cbarbouneau- mentioned in connection with this vote, as hon. gentlemen will see on referring to last year's estimates. The other two were being paid out of the same vote, though their names were not mentioned. Mrs. Lamouche has been employed in the depart-meut since 1S79, and, before that she was employed in the Finance Department. She had always been paid out of contingencies. Last year the appropriation v>
as exhausted before the end of the fiscal year, so she could not receive her salary, causing her great inconvenience. It was decided that hereafter her name should be men tioned in the estimates. She keeps the establishment book and also despatches the notices to mariners. Charbonneau is a messenger to whom we pay the same salary as last year. Since the redistribution ot the rooms by the department, another messenger is necessary. The officers of the Marine Department were formerly all on one nat but now, with the increased work carried on, we have offices on another flat, and we have O'Brien as messenger there.


George Taylor: And has the money voted last year been expended?	.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Yes.


George Taylor: And the minister tells us that the money could not be drawn by certain of these officers because their names were not mentioned. Then, the vote lapsed and the unexpended money should have gone back into the treasury.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House. He said:	On
Tuesday I propose to finish the item of civil government. We have the High Commissioner's office and the Departments of Justice, Interior and Militia. The Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden) will be here on Tuesday, and I will have somebody to take the estimates for the Department of the Interior.
Motion agreed to and House adjourned at 3.55 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, January 23, 1905.