1905-01-26

QUESTIONS.


Mr. SLOAN asked :: 1.	Has the government any information that the Imperial authorities propose to abandon Esquimau as a navail station ?
2.	If so, what action has this government taken in respect to section nine (9) of the terms of the union, under which the colony of British Columbia entered into union with the Dominion of Canada, reading as follows : ' The influence of the Dominion government will be used to secure the maintenance of the naval station at Esquimalt.' ?


Dr.  J. H.@: The government has no information that the Imperial government proposed to abandon Esquimalt as a naval station. Therefore, there is no occasion to make a statement in regard to the second question of my hon. friend (Mr. Sloan).


MACCAN MAIL CARRYING CONTRACT.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. FOWLER-by Mr. Foster-asked :
1.	Is there a contract in force for the carrying of mails from Maccan, Intercolonial Railway station, to the post office in the town ?
2.	If so (a) what is the contract price, and (b) who is the contractor ?
3.	(a) Were public tenders asked for ? (b) If so, who were the several tenderers, and what were the amounts respectively ?
4.	What sum was paid the previous contractor for same service ?
Hon. Sir WILLIAM iMULOCK (Postmaster General) :
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Ninety-seven dollars per annum ; (b) Robert Harrison.
3.	(a) Yes ; (b) Robert J. Harrison, $97; Jerome Loring, $97; George J. Harrison, $126.
4.	One hundred and eighteen dollars and ninety-two cents per annum.
MARCONI SYSTEM ON THE [DOT] STANLEY ' AND THE * MINTO.'
Mr. LEFURGEY-by Mr. Martin-asked :
1.	Under what arrangement and for what purposes has the Marconi system of telegraph been placed in the government boats ' Stanley ' and * Minto ' ?
2.	Does the government pay for this, and if so, how much ?
3.	Has the work thus far been successful?
4.	Has the Anglo-American Telegraph Company protested against the establishment of Marconi stations on Prince Edward Island, (a) in connection with these boats ; or (b) for the purpose of establishing telegraphic communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland ? If so, why ?
5.	Does the government recognize such a protest ? If so, why ?
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	Under contract, for the purpose of being able to communicate from one ship at


Mr.   POSTER@: the mainland to the other ship at the island.
2.	Yes, $1,500 for each ship, the cost of the installation.
3.	Very successful.
4.	Yes. (a) No. (b) Yes, on account of competition with them.
5.	No, for public reasons.


MURRAY HARBOUR BRANCH, P.E.I. RAILWAY.
Mr. MARTIN asked :: 1.	Has the Murray Harbour branch line of railway in Prince Edward Island been completed ? If so, when ?
2.	If not, what remains to be done, and what is the estimated cost of same, including rolling stock ?
3.	How .many of the bridges are wooden, or partly wooden structures ? Are they to be replaced by stone or steel ? If so, when, and what is the estimated cost ?
4.	How' many hooking and other stations are now built on this line, and where ? How many more are proposed to be built, and where ?
5.	Is a station to be built at Grand View or Newton Crossing on this line 1 If so, is it to be a booking station ?
6.	Has a delegation from Prince Edward w'aited on any member or official of the government during the session of parliament, asking for this station ? If so, of whom composed ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: The information to enable me to answer this question is only to be had at Moncton, and I have not yet had an opportunity to secure it.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Stand.


DISALLOWANCE OF ACT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA LEGISLATURE.
Mr. RALPH SMITH asked :: 1.	Have any of the Acts passed at the last session of the British Columbia Legislature of 1904 been disallowed ?
2.	If any of such Acts have been disallowed, what are they, and for what reason ?


Hon. CHARLES FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Chapter 20, intituled : ' An Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia'; it was found to be ultra vires or interfering with Dominion policy.


EMPLOYMENT OF MR. P. M. BREDT.
Mr. LAKE asked :: 1.	Is Mr. P. M. Bredt at present in the employ of the Dominion government ?
2.	If so, since when, in what capacity, and at what salary ?
3.	On whose recommendation was Mr. Bredt appointed to his present position ?
4.	Was Mr. Bredt in the employ of the Dominion government in 1904 ? If so, during what period or periods, and in what capacity or capacities ?	.
5.	Did Mr. Bredt retire from the service of the Dominion government in 1904 ? If so, on what date ?
6.	What was the reason for his retirement ?
7.	On whose recommendation was Mr. Bredt appointed to the position he occupied with the government during 1904, and prior to that year?


Dr.  J. H.@: Will the hon. member (Mr. Lake) tell me to what department he refers ?


Mr. LAKE.: The immigration department.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: We will let the question stand, and I will try to get the answer.


EMPLOYMENT OF MR. SYDNEY PORTER.
Mr. LAKE asked :: 1.	On what date did Mr. Sydney Porter retire from the position of homestead inspector prior to the general election of 1904 ?
- 2. What salary was Mr. Porter drawing at the time of his retirement ?
3.	Is Mr. Porter at present in the employ of the Dominion government ? If so, in what capacity, and at what salary ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER Prime Minister) :
1.	Mr. Sidney Porter retired from the position of homestead inspector on August 31, 1903.
2.	He was receiving a salary of $125 per month.
3.	Yes; colonization agent at $125 per month.


EMPLOYMENT OF MR. J. R. POLLOCK.
Mr. LAKE asked :: 1.	Is Mr. J. R. Pollock in the employ of the government ? If so, since when ?
2.	Was Mr. J. R. Pollock in the employ of the government during October. 1904 ? If so. what were his duties ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	Yes, Mr. Pollock has been in the employ of the government since May 12, 1902.
2.	Yes; homestead inspector.


LAND OBTAINED BY MR. HENRY EN-TENIER.
Mr. LAKE asked :: 1.	When did Henry Entenier enter for his first homestead ?
2.	Has Mr. Entenier entered for a second homestead, or obtained from the government any land since that time ? If so, what is its location, at what price, and under what conditions did he receive it ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	On May 31, 1893.
2.	Mr. Entenier has not entered for a second homestead. Upon report of homestead inspector that only a portion of the land in their homesteads was cultivable in consequence of early frosts, caused by the lowness of the land, and because of hail in some years, settlers in the Kroneau district (of which Mr. Entenier is one) were al-

lowed to purchase each an additional quarter section, subject to ordinary cultivation conditions. He bought the SE. quarter section 14, township 15, range 17, west of the 2nd meridian, at the regulation price of $3 per acre, payable one-fourth at time of purchase, the balance in three annual instalments, with interest on any ' unpaid balance at 5 per cent per annum.


DRILL HALL IN SHERBROOKE.
Mr. WORTHINGTON asked :: 1.	Has a sum of money been placed in the estimates for the construction of a drill hall in Sherbrooke ?
2.	If so, what amount, and when will such appropriation be available ?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to increase the appropriation in the near future ?
4.	Has a suitable site been procured ? If so, where, and at what cost ?
5.	Have plans and specifications been prepared ?
6.	Is it the intention of the government to call for tenders for the construction of the same ?
7.	When does the government intend commencing the construction of such drill hall ?
8.	Is the government aware that the four different branches of the service which exist in Sherbrooke have for some time past had no suitable premises for the retention of arms and accoutrements ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LATJRIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	$10,000. Money available at present.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes ; on Victoria street, between Belvedere and Goodhue streets ; price paid $6,000, of which $1,500 was contributed by the corporation of the town of Sherbrooke.
5.	Plans and specifications are now in course of preparation.
6.	Yes.
7.	As soon as plans are prepared.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Part of that question is not answered.


Wilfrid Laurier: It Is so general that I cannot answer it. I would have to communicate with several departments, and that will be done perhaps later on.


POST OFFICE IN SHERBROOKE.
Mr. WORTHINGTON asked :: 1.	Has any amount been placed in the estimates for the purpose of improving and increasing the accommodation of the Sherbrooke post office ?
2.	If so, what amount has been so placed in the estimates, and when will such appropriation be made ? '
3.	Have tenders been called for the work of the same? If so, have any been accepted, and from whom?
4.	Is it the intention of the department to increase the staff and efficiency of the Sherbrooke office ?
5.	What are the salaries of those now employed, postmaster and clerks ?
Sir WILFRID LAURI35R.


Dr.  J. H.@: 1 & 2. Yes ; there is at present an amount of $2,000 available for that purpose.
3.	The principal item is for lock boxes ($1,650), which are supplied under contract.


Hon.   S@: I would ask the hon. gen-man to allow the last two parts of his question to stand.



ANTHRACITE COAL USED BY GOVERNMENT.

Mr. A. K.: McLEAN-by Mr. Martin- asked :
1.	What were the quantities of anthracite coal used in the several departments of the government of Canada, in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island, in the years 1900, 1901, 1902. 1903 and 1904 ?
2.	What was the total expenditure per year for said coal for each of said provinces during said years ; and separately, what were the names of the parties to whom paid, and the price per ton paid to each ?


Dr.  J. H.@: As this reply would require a large amount of work, would the hon. gentleman be kind enough to ask for an order of the House for a return ?



SURVEYS FOR GEORGIAN BAY CANAL.

Mr. BRABAZON asked :: 1.	How many parties are engaged on the surveys of the proposed Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal ?
2.	Who are the engineers in charge of said parties, and what territory do they respectively cover ?
3.	When did the several parties commence operations ?
4.	Of how many men did each party consist on the 1st of January inst. ?
5.	Have any interim reports been received by the government from any of the engineers ? If so, what is their tenor ?
6.	When is it expected that the survey will be completed ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	Ten.
2.	Section No. 1, Lake Nipissing to middle of Lake Huron, A. J. McDougall engineer In charge. Section No. 2, middle of Lake Huron to head of Johnson's rapids, on the Ottawa river, H. P. Bell engineer in charge. Section No. 3, head of Johnson's rapids to Des Joachims rapids, Wm. Cross engineer in charge. Section No. 4, head of Des Joachims rapids through north and south channels of Allumette island to Fort Coulonge, G. L. Griffith engineer in charge. Section No. 5, from Fort Coulonge through Calumet, Portage du Fort and Snows to head of Chats rapids, A. Robert engineer in charge. Section No. 0, bead of Chats rapids through Lake Deschfines to the Gatineau river, W. G. Warner engineer in charge. Section No. 7, from the Gatineau river down

the Ottawa river, through Grenville rapids, to the foot of Carillon rapids, E. E. Per-rault engineer in charge. Section No. 8, from foot of Carillon rapids, through Lake of Two Mountains and Ste. Anne rapids, to head of Lake St. Louis, C. E. McNaughton engineer in charge. Section No. 9, from head of Lake St. Louis to Montreal by the La-chine canal, with investigation of the Back river channels to the St. Lawrence river, L. R. Voligny engineer in charge. Party No. 10 (subdivision of section No. 1), Lake Nipissing, F. H. Peters, first assistant, in charge.
3.	The first nine parties were ordered to report on the 27th October, 1904 ; party No. 10 was formed later on, and. began work in the first week of January instant.
4.	Each party is composed of 10 men- engineering staff, 7 men ; river men, labourers and cook, 9 men. Extra men are employed when required. On the 1st January instant the several staffs were as follows :-
Section No. 1		. . . . 16 men.
" 9	.... 21 "
" 3		.... 16 "
" 4		.... 21 "
" 5		. . . . 16 "
" 0		.. .. 21 "
" 7		.... 29 "
" S		.... 20 "
" 9		.... 28 "
5. Only usual reports respecting field work have been received.
0. The survey is expected to last one year.



I. C. R.-STATION AGENT AT FREDERICTON.

Mr. CROCKET moved :: For copies of the letters of Mr. Tiffin, general traffic manager, and J. E. Price, general superintendent, of the Intercolonial Railway, reporting Odbur White, station agent at Fredericton, N.B., as not qualified for his position ; and of all other correspondence in the possession of the government or the Department of Railways and Canals,* relating to the dismissal of said Odbur White ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is no correspondence. Reports were made to me orally at Moncton in the month of December. I have received a letter from Mr. White, to which I have replied. That correspondence can be furnished if the hon. gentleman is satisfied with that.


Hon. JOHN HAGGART.: Perhaps the minister would be more particular in future, when he gives an answer to a question put in the House, to state that the report is an oral one ; for certainly, in listening to him, I came to the conclusion that it was a report in writing that had been made in reference to that matter.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
For copies of all correspondence had with the government or any member or official thereof, in reference to the building and location of a railway station at Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island ; also report or reports or memorandum of any minister or official of the government, with reference to delegations from the province of Prince Edward Island, asking for the construction of such work.-Mr. A. Martin.,

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Post office-outside service, miscellaneous expenditure, $289,740.
['They are large readers of the periodicals and the daily press.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at G p.m.', 'Friday, January 27, 1905.']
Mr. AMES.: Mr. Chairman, before this amount is voted, I would like to refer again to a matter which I spoke of yesterday when we were discussing the estimates of the hon. Postmaster General with special reference to the post office in the city of Montreal. I would like to quote for the benefit ot the hon. Postmaster General and the members of this House an extract from a statement which was delivered by Mr. Justice Desnoyers from the bench in the city of Montreal on December 17, 1904, at the time that he committed six prisoners for trial in the case of the Crown vs. Geo. Bis-sonnette et al., charged with conspiracy. At that time the hon. judge spoke as follows :
Besides, the first of November, Bissonuette, took from No. 29 St. Charles Borromee street, a bundle of envelopes and had the stamps cancelled and the envelopes brought back to No. 29 St. Charles Borromde street. These letters were to serve bogus voters by putting them in a position to make fraudulent identification in case it should be necessary so to do.
I would like to know whether the hon. Postmaster General has received a report from his subordinate, and what action has been taken on this report, inasmuch as it would appear from the words of the judge that some of the officials of the Montreal post office had prostituted their position in order to assist in the preparation of electoral frauds.


Hon.   S@: Until yesterday, I had never heard of the matter in any way. I made inquiry in the department and I find the following report from Mr. J. L. Palmer, the assistant postmaster at Montreal:
Montreal, 3rd November, 1904.
Sir,-I beg to report that yesterday complaint was made to this office that' some one upstairs had handed a parcel of letters to an employee to postmark and return to him ; that the same man had used the same employee for the same purpose the day before. I made inquiries of those likely to know something about the matter, and finally ascertained that Mr. Louis Thi-bault, of the public works branch here, had, on Tuesday about noon stamped a certain number of envelopes, whether empty and addressed I do not know. When I learned this I sent for Mr. Thibault, who is a very obliging person



and very useful to us, and questioned him concerning this accusation.


Mr. MORIN.: To us !
.Sir WILLIAM MULOCK. This is the assistant postmaster who is writing. This is Mr. .T. L. Palmer's statement :
He said that he had stamped some letters the day before ; that he thought he was doing no harm, and the chances are he did not think there was any harm in doing so. He said that he would bring me down what letters had been given to him yesterday. There were about thirty, I fancy, empty envelopes, unaddressed, prepaid with a two-cent stamp each, and some five or six closed against inspection. He gave me to understand that he got them from some one of the name of Bissonnette.
I asked the superintendent to warn the clerks in charge, our stampers and sorters and others concerned against allowing any one to meddle with our stamping machines, other than those authorized to do so.
Of course these stamping machines and electric plant are kept in order by employees of the Public Works Department, and they have, necessarily, free access to the office in consequence.
Mr. Thibault W'anted to know what he would do with these envelopes, and few closed letters which had been given to him by this party. He
was told to do as he pleased with them ; that they had not beep posted and that, consequently, it rested with him to dispose of them as he deemed best.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) J. L. PALMER,
Assistant Postmaster.
The Postmaster General Ottawa. Ont.
I sent for the secretary of the department and questioned him as to the position of this man Thibault and he gave me the following memorandum :
Re case of Louis Thibault :
Under date the 3rd November last, the postmaster of Montreal reported that Louis Thibault, who is employed as an electrician by the Department of Public Works, to attend to the electric stamping machines in use at the Montreal post office, had, at the instigation of a friend of his named Bissonnette, improperly passed through one of the stamping machines a number of unsealed empty envelopes unaddressed and prepaid with a two-cent stamp each, also some five or six envelopes which were closed against inspection.
The object which this man Bissonnette had was, it appears, to give the envelopes in question (which he used to inclose certain election documents) the semblance of having passed legitimately through the post office, although actually delivered by hand.
The question as to whether this department has any action against Bissonnette for an improper use of post office material, apparently for a fraudulent purpose, has been submitted to the Department of Justice, but as yet no answer has been received from that department.
The Department of Public Works has also been asked whether in view of the serious impropriety of Thibault's conduct he is a suitable person to be entrusted with work which gives him the opportunity of making an improper use of post' office material, but no reply has yet |jeen received from the Department of Public Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
Works, beyond a statement from the private secretary that the minister was out of town and that the matter would be referred to him on his return.
I asked the secretary of the department how this man Thibault came to be allowed access to the working part of the post office, and he gave me the following explanation : It appears that there are certain electrical works in connection with the building generally and that this man Thibault is an electrician. A small part of the post office in the city of Montreal is occupied by stamping machines that are run by electrical power, and It was part of the duty of this man Thibault to come in from time to time and see that these machines were in proper order. Accordingly, no question would arise in case of his appearing at one of these machines. The probability is that on one of these occasions he came to one of these machines, and whether surreptitiously or otherwise, the probability is that he made an improper use of his position, which was only to examine the machines and see that they were in order, to stamp these envelopes.


John Graham Haggart: What is the date of the letter in which you made inquiry of the Department of Public Works and to which you seem to have no answer ?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: December 17. I will read the letter to my hon. friend (Mr. Haggartj. It is from the Deputy Postmaster General to the Minister of Public Works, and it is as follows :
Under date the 3rd November last, the postmaster of Montreal reported that Louis Thibault, who is employed as an electrician by the Department of Public Works to attend to the electric stamping machines in use at the Montreal post office, had, at the instigation of a friend of his named Bissonnette, improperly passed through one of the stamping machines a number of unsealed empty envelopes unaddressed and prepaid with a two-cent stamp each, also some five or six envelopes which were closed against inspection.
The object which this man Bissonnette had was, it appears, to give the envelopes in question (which he used to inclose certain election documents) the semblance of having passed legitimately through the post office, although actually delivered by hand.
I beg therefore, to submit the question as to whether in view of the serious impropriety of Thibault's conduct he is a suitable person to be entrusted with work which gives him the opportunity of making an improper use of post office material.
That is signed by the Deputy Postmaster General.


Mr. BERGERON.: To that letter there was no answer.


William Mulock: There is an answer dated December 23, 1904, from the private secretary to the Minister of Public Works.	1


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is that answer?

ISir WILLIAM MULOCK. It is as follows :-
December 23rd, 1904.
Sir,-I have the honour to acknowledge your favour of the 17th inst., which has been received in the absence of Honourable Mr. Hyman from Ottawa, with reference to an employee of this department in the Montreal post office. Louis Thibault by name. On the minister's return to the city, your letter will be laid before him.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,



[Stage Direction]
[DOT] %	Private Secretary.
Herbert Brown Ames: I would like to point out to the minister that all this correspondence relates to the second offence, that the first time the letters passed through without detection and that nearly all this correspondence related to the second lot of letters which were caught while they were going through. [DOT]


William Mulock: I have not seen my deputy on the subject because he has been absent from Ottawa, but the file contains the letter from Palmer and of course our action would be with reference to this complaint. The letter from Mr. Palmer says:
I beg to report' that yesterday complaint was made to this office that some one ' upstairs ' had handed a parcel of letters, &c.
That was the information furnished to us by the assistant postmaster and that is the information which moved the department to action; I do not think we have any other, information in regard to any other alleged offence. It may have been as my friend (Mr. Ames) says, but the whole file was submitted to me by the secretary of the department this morning.


Mr. SPROULE.: In the letter you refer to another alleged offence, so that there must have been another occasion when the same thing was done.


William Mulock: That may appear; whatever was in Palmer's letter was the subject of our inquiries of the other departments, first as to whether Thibault or Bissonnette can be proceeded against criminally, and whether Thibault is a proper person to continue in the public service. One act of this kind is just as censurable as a dozen acts. If a man has committed this offence on one day that is sufficient ground for action although two offences may aggravate the case.


Herbert Brown Ames: Has the minister any reply to his inquiry to the Department of Justice as to whether the department can proceed against Bissonnette for the misuse of the mails?	.
Sir WILL1 AM MULOCK. The matter has been referred to the Deputy Minister of Justice, but I do not know what has trans-74
pired as I have not had an opportunity of inquiring.


Herbert Brown Ames: Will the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) let us know?


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: Probably we have fourteen or fifteen applications of this sort every day, and it' is absolutely impossible for me to carry in my mind the result of the different references, but since the matter was brought up I have made application to the department for details and I expect to have them in a few minutes.


Herbert Brown Ames: I should be very sorry to believe that there are fourteen or fifteen cases of this kind every day because it is a case of such an extraordinary character.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I am sure my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) would not intentionally misrepresent what I said. I did not say there were fourteen or fifteen cases of this sort every day; I said there were fourteen or fifteen references to the department.


Herbert Brown Ames: There is another matter which I would like to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General before we have the estimates for his department. In the Montreal ' Star ' of January 13, 1905, there occurs a statement purporting to come from the city treasurer as follows:
It is true that letters containing cheques for interest upon civic bonds have evidently been opened at the post office in this city and have been forged and cashed.
I would like to know if the minister has any information on this.


William Mulock: I am informed that this matter has not been brought to the attention of the department except through a newspaper report, but as soon as it was brought to the notice of the department in that way, a communication was directed, on December 19, to the inspector at Montreal, Mr. Bain, instructing him to make an investigation. The memorandum is as follows :-
This matter was referred to the post office inspector at Montreal for a report on the 19th instant, but the report has not yet come to hand.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What seems strange to me about this case is that it was reported to the Department of Public Works, that one of their employees was doing improper work in the Post Office Department, and yet for two and a half months, so far as we know, that employee has never been dismissed or reprimanded.


William Mulock: In the absence of the acting Minister of Public Works I may say that he has not had this matter in hand for two and a half months. It was on December 17 that the Post Office Department directed a communication to him. The holidays were then on and the Minister of

Public Works, I presume, did not return to Ottawa until some time in the new year. It may be that lie has dealt with the case, for all we know, but it has not been under his notice for two and a half months. I presume the minister was with his family during the holiday season; he came down to Ottawa early in January and since then there has been a good deal to do getting ready for the session, and we are still only at January 26.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This I think would be the proper time to make inquiry in reference to another matter. Complaints are made with regard to the time of the delivery of mail, especially of newspapers, in the House of Commons post office. I was here week before last and we waited a little over an hour after the trains were in before we could get a paper in the House of Commons. I was told that this could be easily remedied by having a bag brought direct from the train to the House of Commons post office, instead of having the mails delivered at the post office down town, sorted there and then brought up here. It seems to me that could be easily done and it would be a convenience. We went down town and bought papers there, and hadi them up here nearly an hour before they were delivered in the House of Commons post office. That I think ought to be changed. I would also call attention to the fact that on Sundays the House post office is closed at four o'clock in the evening. Letters dropped into the post office after four o'clock do not go out by that night's mail, which leaves at eleven o'clock. It seems to me that it would toe an easy matter to have a bag sent from here at the last moment either to the train or to the city post office. I spoke about this to the postmaster, who is a most courteous, accommodating, and obliging man, and he told me that it would not be difficult to have a more convenient arrangement, tout that his attention had not toeen drawn to it before. This system has not always prevailed, because I can remember that some years ago we could mail our letters at a much later hour. Having drawn the attention of the hon. Postmaster General to the matter, I have no (lo"U*+imt be will confer with his employees and have a change made.


William Mulock: With reference to the first point made by my hon. friend, whether the mails would get here more quickly if sent direct from the train to the House of Commons rather than via the post office, let me explain that the arrangements for conveying the mails to and from the House of Commone are under the control o!' a committee of this House or a joint committee of both Houses. The postmaster here is not an officer of our department; he is an officer of this House.


John Graham Haggart: What joint committee controls them ?


William Mulock: 


William Mulock: It is called the Committee of Internal Economy, I believe. The Post Office Department has no jurisdiction over the mail service between the Post Office and the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The Postmaster General did not say so when we were distributing our literature and he threatened to throw it out.


William Mulock: We will discuss one thing at a time ; I am now giving my hon. friend the information he desired. At present the practice is to have the mails that come from the west and from Montreal sent here in a special bag directed to the House of Commons. They fire brought by electric car to the post office and there delivered to the courier of the House of Commons, who is in attendance, and who at once brings them here. He does not wait on the sortation of the mails at the city post office at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The Postmaster General evidently misunderstands me. I said that the complaint was not with regard to letters, but papers.


William Mulock: Whether letters or papers, they came in a bag directed to the House of Commons, and there is no delay7 caused by their coming via the city post office. There may be some delay on the part of the courier, but that is a matter for Mr. Speaker, and I will call his attention to the hon. gentleman's question. With regard to having the outgoing mail on Sunday evening close at half-past ten instead of 4 o'clock, I may say that the mails are despatched from the city post office to the station at the latest possible moment before the departure of the train, and if the House of Commons gets its mails into the city7 post office in time for the last despatch of the mails to the station, which takes place at about half-past ten, my hon. friend's point would be met. The remedy rests with the post office in the House of Commons, not with us.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The papers were one hour later than the letters. After- I had gone down to the city and purchased a paper, I inquired here, and was told that the mail had not yet arrived from the post office.


William Mulock: That is between tbe postmaster here and the courier.


John Graham Haggart: Is the party who brings the mail from the city post office to the House of Commons under the control of the Speaker or of the postal authorities ?


William Mulock: The postmaster of the House of Commons informs me that he. is a man named Patterson, and he is employed by Mr. Speaker.


Mr. MONK.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he is able to tell the com-

rnittee what is the amount ot rental paid for the branch post office in the city of Montreal situated at No. 2467 St. Catherine St, and whether the lease for that office expires this year ? Some documents have just been placed in my hands by the hon. member for St. Antoine division (Mr. Ames) who has been obliged to absent himself, and who represents that part of the city, from which it would appear that that post office as at present organized is a source of danger to the public health. Numerous complaints were placed in the hands of my hon. friend from St. Antoine division ; in consequence of these, the health officer of the city of Montreal was asked to make an examination and report. This is the report which he made :
Montreal, December 1, 1904.
H. B. Ames. Esa.,
ISO St. James Street.
Sir,-I have the honour to make you the following report re the sanitary condition of No. 2467 St. Catherine Street. We made the smoke test. The place is unhealthy at present and is besides very badly kept. There are not sufficient water closets for the number of employees. The proprietor, Mr. Pacaud, was notified to put the premises in good order and the department will see that that is done as soon as possible. I may also add that it is largely the fault of the occupants if their quarters are not kept as they ought to be. .
Your obedient servant,


J. A. DUROCHER.
[Stage Direction]
Supt. of Sanitary Police
It would appear that at a later date inquiry was again made of Mr. Durocher as to what had been done with regard to these premises. I have here his answer addressed to Alderman Ames :
City Hall, Montreal, 12th, January, 1905.
H. B. Ames, Esq.,	r [DOT]
180 St. James Street.
Sir,-Your letter of the 10th instant was received yesterday. In reply I must say, as X did, on December 1st, that the place is not kept as it should be. The water closets and floors are dirty. There has been negligence since we have had all put into good order, and it is again in a bad state. There is gas escaping from a pipe placed in the back by order of the manager of the office. There is not a single cuspidor in the establishment and you can imagine the result'. We have notified the proper party to repair the gas pipe, to supply cuspidors, to have the floors washed, &c. The said official believes the owner to he hound to do the cleaning, therefore, I believe he should be made to fulfil his obligation. I do not believe that the health department would be justified in interfering in such a case.
Your obedient servant,

[Stage Direction]
It is in consequence of these documents that I ask my hon. friend whether the lease expires this year or whether, in the short time which is to elapse between now and February 1, the Post Office Department could not take measures, before allowing that lease to be renewed either expressly or
tacitly, to have that public office made absolutely conformable to all the sanitary rules and by-laws of the city of Montreal ?
William Mulock: After my hon. friend from St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) had referred to this matter yesterday, I made inquiry, and was informed that it had not been brought to the attention of the department. I gather from the papers just read by my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier, that the health superintendent of the city of Montreal informed the hon. member for St. Antoine that the premises were not proof against the smoke test. Whilst Mr. Durocher has said in his report that the case is perhaps one which does not come within the jurisdiction of the health department of the city of Montreal, the Post Office De-partmerit is very much interested in having all its buildings in a sanitary condition satisfactory to the public and the officials.
I am sorry therefore, that my hon. friend from St. Antoine did not at once bring the matter to the attention of my department. According to the superintendent's statement, it would appear that most of the condition complained of is due to the neglect of the occupants of the building over whom the health department has no jurisdiction. That is a very extraordinary state of affairs. It is very extraordinary that the occupants of any public building should be so regardless of hygienic conditions as to impair their own health as well as that of the public. I shall however, have the matter looked into and see what can be done to abate the nuisance, whether the superintendent of sanitary police in Montreal has jurisdiction or not. That would have been done long ago if we had been made aware of the facts. The rental paid for the premises is $250 per annum, but I cannot say when the lease expires. I shall look into the matter and see that the department does everything possible to remedy the condition complained of.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not understand how my hon. friend can pretend that the health department of the city of Montreal has no jurisdiction.
Sir WILLIAM MX;LOCK. I do not say so. It is Mr. Durocher who says so in one of his reports.


Mr. BRODEUR.: Has this report of the sanitary superintendent's been sent to the Board of Health of Montreal ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: When a health officer in Montreal is called upon to visit a house, he makes an entry of his visit and the result, and that constitutes a report. Xle makes no special report, but will make one, if asked to do so, to a member of the Board of Health or any one else who wants it.


William Mulock: For the information of my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) I made inquiry of the postmaster, and he says that whilst there is a

mail despatched from here at four o'clock Id the afternoon on Sundays, there is also one despatched as late as 9 o'clock at night. Does my hon. friend desire a later service ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have mailed letters myself at 5 o'clock on Sunday, and they were only stamped and despatched the next day.


William Mulock: The concluding words of Mr. Durocher's report of January 12 are :
I do not believe that the health department would be justified in interfering in such a case.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: But the minister says that he will act in spite of that.


William Mulock: I will do all that is reasonably possible- I am sorry it was not brought to my attention sooner.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think the sense of that is that the Health Department would not be jusified in interfering to make the repairs itself, because there is no doubt I suppose, that the proprietor or occupant is bound by direction of the Act to obey a health officer. Perhaps the sanitary inspector considers that his rights do not authorize him to act, tout I think this department has enough in these reports to insist upon the place being kept in a sanitary condition.


William Mulock: Quite right.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that the Postmaster General still keeps a separate item for the Yukon Territory mail service- What object is there in that ?


William Mulock: The revenue and expenditure are given as a whole. It may be some information to give the Yukon expenditure separately. I suppose it is no harm to give that information.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But I was asking the reason for it.
iSir WILLIAM MULOCK. I do hot know.
I instructed the Deputy Postmaster General in balancing up the accounts to incorporate the revenue and expenditure as before, but I did not go into his report in detail.


Mr.   POSTER@: I suppose it is a relic of the system adopted toy the Postmaster General some years ago, when he kept the Yukon expenditure by itself. And, as he showed a surplus without taking account of the Yukon expenditure he claimed it as a surplus for the department. Yet, as every one knew, there was a large deficit in the total service. I am glad he has given up that arrangement, and I do not see any reason why a special heading should be made here for the Yukon. Before we leave the consideration of sums paid steamships and railways and miscellaneous expenditure, there are two or three points I wish to bring to the Postmaster General's attention. Will the Postmaster General tell us what was spent in commissions on sav-


William Mulock: ings bank business last year. He has taken $27,500. The rate has not been changed, I suppose?


William Mulock: As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) knows postmasters are not only paid an allowance on their revenues but also what is called forward allowance, allowance on money matters, saving's banks, postal notes and so on. They are now paid ten per cent more than they were on all salaries and allowances. For example, the man who formerly received $10 on money order business would now receive $11 ; the man who received $50 on savings banks would now receive $55. The Auditor General's Report page S-51 shows that the commissions allowed to postmasters on saving's bank business transacted was $23,604.90.


Mr. FOSTER.: The minister is taking $4,000 more than was expended last year. I suppose there is a gradual increase in the business?


William Mulock: The transactions in and out may be greater but I do not think there was a real increase in the amount on deposit at the end of the fiscal year.


George Eulas Foster: Does this cover money order business?


William Mulock: No, only savings bank business.


George Eulas Foster: On what principal are the allowances for travelling expenses of inspectors based?


William Mulock: They must furnish an itemized account of their expenses.


George Eulas Foster: They actually give vouchers, I suppose,?


William Mulock: Yes, so far as one can in travelling.


George Eulas Foster: I would like to be informed as to the payments for the manufacture of postage stamps, post cards, envelopes and post bands. As I remembered it, there was formerly a contract with the Buriands but a new arrangement was made. Under that new arrangement are the same rates paid as before, or are they lower rates?


William Mulock: The rates paid now are lower than were paid to the Bur-lands.


George Eulas Foster: 'Considerably lower?


William Mulock: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) desires it I can have a comparison made of the figures in the Auditor General's Report for 1897 with those in the last report.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. minister has his contracts?


William Mulock: It is all covered toy contract.


George Eulas Foster: 1 do not need the information to-day, but perhaps the Postmaster General will have it prepared.


William Mulock: I will have it sent to the hon. gentleman. To avoid mistake will he be good enough to send a memorandum of just what he wants.


George Eulas Foster: There is a large expenditure for mail bags, locks, repairs and so on. And I see a number of people are employed in Ottawa, Toronto and other cities in making the mail bags. Does the minister call for tenders for this work, giving specifications and allowing for public tender ?


William Mulock: A contract was let after tenders had been invited from competent persons. The present contractor Is Mr. Carson, of Ottawa. The contract was let about two years ago.


George Eulas Foster: My question was, whether public tenders were called for, either by circular or advertisement ?


William Mulock: There was a fair and honest competition. I am told that we have adhered to the practice that was in force when we took office.


George Eulas Foster: To come squarely to the point, does the minister simply advise certain friends of the party, whom he knows to be such, and get rates from them in a sort of private competition ?


William Mulock: No.


George Eulas Foster: Or is it a competition in which the public generally has a chance to give figures ?


William Mulock: I am informed by the superintendent of stores branch that he adheres to the practice that has been followed in the department for many years, of sending out notices to different parties asking them on or before a certain date to send in written tenders for the work. These tenders come in registered, they are all opened at the same time, and contracts are awarded strictly according to the tenders.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend still does not answer as to the selection of persons who receive these kindly invitations to send in estimates. How are they selected ?


William Mulock: Well, the hon. gentleman's colleagues left us a list of names, to which we have added, of men in the trade who are competent to do the work. They are not all of the same political faith-if that is what my hon. friend is driving at. In fact, the successful contractor on the present occasion, Mr. Carson, I understand is not a supporter of this administration.


George Eulas Foster: The information I have, then, is that there is no distinction made, that the selection is made independently of
the .political leanings of the parties, who are supposed to be competent manufacturers in that line, and that consequently these invitations are not confined to one class or one party.


William Mulock: I thought I had made it quite plain. The superintendent of the branch informs me that there ^ was a list of persons to whom the late government was in the habit of sending invitations for tenders. We have added some names to that list, but we have not created a new list, and tenders are invited from those whose names are on the old list, as well as from those who have been added. He reminds me that some of the late contractors, Borbridge & Co., are on that list. They are invited to tender, and have been successful more than once. They were not the successful tenderers the last time, they were third on the list; but when they were first they got the contract.


George Eulas Foster: The contract goes to the lowest tenderer, other things being equal.


William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: With respect to the uniforms, are they all got at one establishment, or is a contract price made, and. then are parties asked whether they will manufacture at that price ? I notice that, whether they are made in Toronto, or Ottawa, or somewhere else, the price seems to be the same all the way through, so far as 1 can judge. If separate tenders are called for in each city, it seems to me a little strange that the prices are exactly the same.


William Mulock: The superintendent of stores branch informs me that at one time the department invited tenders lor the supply of uniforms complete, the contractors furnishing the cloth. But there was a weak spot in that practice, we got inferior cloth, and we would not discover it perhaps until the goods were delivered, when it was too late to remedy it. We had to have different suits of clothing at different seasons of the year, and a few months before a change of season, supplies were required by the contract to be delivered to be used when that season arrived. But there was so much difficulty in getting uniform styles of cloth, and good cloth which complied with the samples, that at last the department decided to purchase the cloth itself, which had not been the practice. I made the mistake myself of inviting tenders for goods made up, the contractor furnishing the cloth, and our attempts in that direction were very unsatisfactory. So the department had to revert to the former practice of purchasing the cloth itself and issuing it to the contractors to be made up. The department also supplies small things called trimmings, monograms and numbers. The department knows what is the reasonable rate to allow for making up a garment, and

that rate is made known to the different makers. They are communicated with and informed that the department is prepared to allow such and such a rate for the manufacture of such and such garments. The superintendent informs me that he communicated with a number of manufacturers in different cities to see what rate they twould charge for making up different garments. That gentleman lias had thirty-five years' experience; and is able to form a good and reliable opinion. He thus established for tiie department a scale of prices for the manufacture of the respective garments, and that is the scale on which they are paid.


George Eulas Foster: Then there is no competition as to the price for making ?


William Mulock: We do not call for their manufacture at a lower price than the minimum price that we have made, so there is no competition in the matter of making up.


George Eulas Foster: Well, by allowing a fail-price we are in a position to criticise the manufacturers and to see that the goods are properly made up.


Sir   A@: A reasonable price is offered, and every garment has to pass examination.


George Eulas Foster: Every garment will have to pass examination even if they had a competitive price. I do not suppose the slowest department would accept the work, even if the contractor was making the garment at fifty cents less than his competitor unless he filled the specifications. This then takes away all competition as far as the making up is concerned. I am not saying that the price may not be a fair price for good work. It very probably is. After the long experience that has been had, it would probably be the fairest price consistent with quality and workmanship that you could get. Well, then, in reference to' the purchase of the original cloths-is that adder^'1 f01'' 0l' is St a matter of public tenfeir WILLIAM MULOCIv. Reputable mills are asked to tender.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: [DOT] Which mills ?


William Mulock: Good manufacturers of cloth.	'


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: All Canadian ?


William Mulock: All Canadian, all wool and a yard wide.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: If I understand web, tlie cloth is furnished by the department to the different makers in different parts of the country. All that the government has to pay for is the cutting and making of the uniforms. Could the hon. gentleman sav how much each of these uniforms costs ? ' '


William Mulock: 


William Mulock: The manufacturers of uniforms purchase the material from the department. We get it from the mills, and we supply it to the men who make up the goods. They have to pay us the cost price.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The cloth is inspected, of course, when it leaves here ?


William Mulock: Every yard of the cloth is inspected by the men in the department. To prevent substitution of any other cloth, every yard is stamped with the stamp of the department inside in a practically indelible way, so that the department can identify its own cloth after it is manufactured and after the goods come back.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who has given the idea of the model of the letter-carriers' uniforms and caps ? I think tlie letter-carriers' uniform is the worst I have ever seen in my life.


George Eulas Foster: I imagine a prize was offered for it.
Sir WILLIAM AIULOCIv. I am told that the 'design has been hallowed by antiquity.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Could it not be changed ?


William Mulock: Air. Smith! tells me that the question is under consideration. I would be very glad indeed if my boil, friend would furnish us with some suggestions.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The cap, also, I suppose, is a piece of antiquity ?


Sir   W ILLIAM MULOCK@: I believe there have been some improvements in the summer cap.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There might be an invitation issued for competitive designs.


George Eulas Foster: Is the same principle carried out in reference to the duck for the bags, or are the contracts made for the material and making up as well ?
Sir WILLIAAt AIULOCK. In the case of the mail bags, the contractors supply duck and all materials and furnish the bags complete.


George Eulas Foster: Would not my boo. friend think that he would probably get better hags and have a better return for his money if he took the same course in respect to those that he does in reference to the uniforms for the men, or are the standards more easily distinguished in duck ?


William Mulock: The superintendent says there is not the same necessity for adopting the precautions we take in regard to cloth for the uniforms in regard to the supply of duck, because the standards in duck are clear, precise and easily distinguished, so that there is not the same opportunity for the duck not being in accordance with the specifications.
\
.JANUARY 26. 1905


George Eulas Foster: I dare say that is so. The only information I would like to have, if the hon. minister will make a note of it, is the names of the parties from whom tenders were asked for the making of the bags and their tendered figures.


William Mulock: Do you want the amounts and all ?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


William Mulock: I will give all that information.


George Eulas Foster: Then I see here that there is an item of $4,342 for detective service. In what way is detective service used by the hon. Postmaster General ?


Mr. INGRAM.: Perhaps, before you leave that item of clothing, I may be allowed to ask the hon. minister a question in reference to the locks for mail bags. Do you anticipate making any change in the style of lock used on the mail bags, or do you propose to continue the use of the old one ?


William Mulock: Would my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) allow me to answer the question my hon. friend from North Toronto refers to ? He asks me what is covered by the item of $4,342 for detective service.


George Eulas Foster: What is the general line of service ?
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIv. Last year, or a year or so ago, we had a very serious robbery of the mails in the Northwest Territories, and we spared no expense to bring the culprits to justice. We succeeded, after a long investigation, in tracing guilt to a mail clerk and to a member of the legal profession, and put them on trial. They were convicted. One of them is undergoing a sentence of three years, and the other, I think, of seven years.


George Eulas Foster: That is the Calgary case ?


William Mulock: Yes, or the Regina case. Some of the money was recovered, but we did not spare expense in order to detect the guilty parties. I think there is another person accused of complicity or guilty knowledge at present in confinement awaiting trial. I think that about absorbs that item.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. Minister of Jus-ice is not concealing the other, I hope.


Charles Fitzpatrick: No ; he came back, but I do not know what became of him.


George Eulas Foster: Do you use the Dominion officials as detectives ?


William Mulock: Altogether.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The case was entirely dealt with by the Dominion officials.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who has the contract for furnishing the locks for the mail sacks and is that contract being continued ?


William Mulock: The lock on the mail bag is a patent lock. The patent was at one time owned by Mr. Low, and it was with him that the department had the contract for their supply. That was the condition of affairs prior to our coming into office, but some seven years ago Mr. Low sold out his patent rights and business to a Mr. Sheppard, who has carried on the manufacture ever since.


Andrew B. Ingram: Has the department not been consulted with respect to a patent lock that is much quicker, that will close ten or twelve bags in the time that it takes to close one of the old ?
.Sir WILLIAM MULOCK. The superintendent says that we have had no notice of any complaints that the lock is too slow in fastening or in any way unsatisfactory or that there was any new and quicker working lock. He says that this lock has been in use for ten years and has had a good trial.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think the hon. gentleman will find some correspondence in his department with respect to this improved lock which I understand is now being used quite largely in the United States. Time is a very important factor in the closing of mail bags where you have a large number to deal with.


William Mulock: I am informed by the superintendent that on several occasions persons from the United States, some of them connected with the United States post office and some not, have come to the department at Ottawa showing what they considered were improved locks. They have been shown our locks, and after examining them have invariably gone away saying that we had a better lock than theirs and that they had nothing to teach us.


George Eulas Foster: Where does the gentleman get his boots, I mean the boots for his letter-carriers ?


William Mulock: The same system that has been in force for years is in force to-day, the old price and the old system.


George Eulas Foster: What is that ?	[DOT]


William Mulock: The department has a standard quality and fixes a price of so much a pair for boots of that quality. The standard price is $4.50.


George Eulas Foster: I find that you have been particularly good to the Halifax people because the boots for letter-carriers in Halifax are put down at $7.50 a pair. Are they a long boot or different from the others ? There is a great disparity in price there. When you come to Ottawa, which must have just as strenuous a climate as that of Halifax, though perhaps there is not as much fog, the boots cost you $4.50 and there are

some cities where they do not appear to be any.


William Mulock: The $7.50 must be a misprint or a mistake in multiplication.


George Eulas Foster: The multiplication is all right, but I see the $7.50 is a mistake, because the multiplication carries out about $4.50. Are all these boots made in the same place ?


William Mulock: They are made in different cities.


George Eulas Foster: I find that in St. John there are no bootmakers ; the boots for that city are made by W. M. Watson of Aurora. Where is Aurora ?


William Mulock: In North York. The system is to have the boots to be used in one place made by bootmakers in another place ; for example, the boots for Halifax will be made in St. John and elsewhere. They say that that practice was adopted to prevent the carriers dickering with the contractors, perhaps getting them to have boots of a little different appearance and different material, and in order to preserve the standard for which we are paying, they are made in that way. The letter-carriers are measured and the boots are issued to them. The boots are all sent here to Ottawa and then, re-issued.


George Eulas Foster: And there is no competition in the price for the making of the toots ?


William Mulock: No, $4.50 is the standard price.


Mr. DANIEL.: Who has the contract in St. John for making the letter-carriers' boots ?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK  E.@: Walsh is the bootmaker in St. John who makes for us.


George Eulas Foster: He makes them for Aurora, does he ?


William Mulock: There are no letter-carriers in Aurora.


George Eulas Foster: 
William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And does it on the rental system ?


William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: What is the cost ?


George Eulas Foster: 


William Mulock: We have machines of two classes, one is worked by electrical power and the other by hand. The patent is owned by a United States firm, the International Supply Company, but it was Mr. Dalton of that firm who interviewed me upon that subject. We formerly had perhaps a dozen machines which we rented. Some of them were electrical stamping machines, but they were very slow and were always breaking down. This type of machine is certainly the best known in the post office world to-day, and it was impossible to buy them. I tried the best I could to buy them outright, but it was not possible to do so.


George Eulas Foster: Is there no price for the sale of the machine ?


William Mulock: There is no price ; they would not sell them, and it would not pay any government to go to work to maxe them. If my hon. friend would drop into the city post office of Toronto or that of Ottawa, he would see a machine at work, and the rapidity with which it stamps will at once show him that no matter what rental we are paying, it is a great economy of time and money.


George Eulas Foster: In Toronto, I notice that the rent is $500 and. $200. I suppose they are on a smaller scale ?


William Mulock: That is $500 for each power machine and $200 for each hand machine.


George Eulas Foster: One other question. In most of the city post offices a large number of labourers appear to be employed at from $1 to $1.50 per day. Outside of the packers and sorters, what do these labourers generally do ?


William Mulock: These would probably be persons on the way to entering the service.


George Eulas Foster: Nine thousand dollars has been paid for labourers in Montreal.


William Mulock: They may gradually be promoted into the ranks of the packers and sorters and carriers. At Christmas-time we have to employ large numbers -at Toronto perhaps 30 or 40 ; and as soon as the pressure is over, we lay them off.
Mr. FOSTER, I suppose the minister does not remember the number employed about October and November in the Montreal post office ?


William Mulock: I know what my hon. friend has in mind, but I do not think there was any change.
Mr. SiPROULE. In regard to the clothing for letter-carriers, do I understand that the cloth is furnished by the government, and the charge is only for making the clothing ?


William Mulock: We issue so many yards of cloth to the contractor, and he has to make the garments to fit the different persons who wear them; and his price to us will be the cost of the work and the cost of the material.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In regard to the supply of mail bags and repairs, I understood the minister to say that there was no competition in that work. What method has been adopted to determine who should get these contracts ?


William Mulock: There was a list of persons who made the mail bags when I took office, and I added to the list. We invited tenders from these persons, and the tenders are received in a very strict and regular way by the superintendent. They come by registered letter to him, and at the time named he opens them, figures them out, and makes a report to the deputy, and the contract is awarded to the lowest tenderer.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are there only a few parties known to the government who are invited to tender, or is the invitation extended to the general public ?


William Mulock: Specifications are prepared and sent to these different persons, with an intimation of the average quantity that may be required.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What I want to ascertain is how you determine to whom these will be sent; because if the matter were entirely in the hands of the minister, he could select a few of his own friends and ask them to tender, but the outside public would not have any opportunity.


William Mulock: The system we are following is the system that was in force when I took office. There were a number of reputable contractors known to the department, and we added to the list, and the superintendent sent invitations to the persons named on the list. One of the successful tenderers under our administration is Mr. Borbridge, who had been a contractor under the previous government. The present contractor in Toronto is one of my hon. friend's friends.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman says he extended the list, and I have no doubt he did, and he has been remarkably fortunate in finding good men in his own constituency. I find that one William Willis, of Aurora, was paid $3,217.55 for making duck bags, &c. I also find that Thomas [Tardy, of Newmarket, for repairing cotton duck bags and jute newspaper sacks, was paid $600. Then, C. H. Hall, of King, which is in the same riding, was paid $2,024.75 for repairing cotton duck bags and linen newspaper sacks. Then, I see that Wm. Watson, of Aurora, was paid $307 for making letter-carriers' boots. So that the
Postmaster General has been pretty fortunate in finding just the right kind of men in his own constituency to do this work. I do not see many constituencies represented by members of the opposition favoured in this way.


William Mulock: My hon. friend has never asked me to give any of this work to his own friends. There is no telling what I might do if appealed to. These repairs are made on a regular system. You cannot measure the value of the work. The department allows a fixed sum out of which the contractors buy the material and make the repairs. They have to take the lean with the fat, and get the same price per bag whether it be' seriously damaged or not. They are paid 25 cents a bag for supplying the material and doing the work and they are held to a minimum rate of wages to their employees.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was not complaining about the cost of repairs, but, I was pointing out the large proportion of friends of the minster in his own constituency who are given this work and to whom a large sum is paid every year for this purpose. I believe that others quite as capable would do the work just as well and perhaps cheaper if they were allowed an opportunity to compete.


William Mulock: There are more on the list than those in my constituency.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I know that, but I am drawing attention to the somewhat large number of contracts given to the hon. gentleman's constituents.


William Mulock: It has always been the practice to let the work in that way.


George Eulas Foster: I see that Chas. Miller was paid $3,713 and Robert Miller, $3,309, being amounts deposited by them in the Post Office Saving's Bank of St. Scholastique and fraudulently was drawn by the assistant postmaster.


William Mulock: That was discussed last year.
Mr. FOiSTER. Then I shall not refer to it again. With reference to the hon. gentleman's officials in the Yukon Territory, does he give them a living allowance in addition to their salary?


William Mulock: No, only a salary, but their pay is greater than it would be in old Canada.


George Eulas Foster: The Minister of Justice might take a leaf out of the hon. gentleman's book and give a salary without a separate living allowance.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It would be well for the hon. gentleman to ascertain the dif-

ference in salaries. Our salaries are much smaller in proportion.


George Eulas Foster: The salaries in the Post Office Department in the Yukon do not seem to be so inordinate. The postmaster of Dawson city gets $5,000.


Charles Fitzpatrick: He would not get more than $2,000 in an eastern city.


George Eulas Foster: What I am objecting to, is keeping up the distinction between living allowance and salary- I think a fair salary should be given and the living allowance done away with.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is a great deal of force in the way my hon. friend puts the case but how would he deal with the judges?


George Eulas Foster: They are always hard to deal with.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Would you pay a judge in the Yftkon double the salary you pay a judge in the Territories, although each is administering justice under the same conditions except as regards living expenses?


George Eulas Foster: That same line of argument would apply to everybody else. I should imagine that a judge after exercising his office two or three years in the Yukon, would not care to leave that delightful. region and sacrifice his living allowance. But even if you made the salary larger and dispensed with the allowance, if a judge wished to be removed east to a less rigorous clime, he would in that case have to accept the smaller salary prevailing in the district to which he desired to be moved.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I see that my hon. friend gives a larger bonus to some letter-carriers than to others. Why this discrepancy?


William Mulock: The bonus is the same to all, pnd is at the rate of $20 per annum. But the letter-carriers come in at different times. Suppose a letter-carrier were appointed in November, he [DOT]would only get his proportion of the $20 for that year. The bonus is estimated for the calendar year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There must be many new letter-carriers, because I see a good deal of difference in the bonuses paid.
'Sir WILLIAM MULOCK. They were employed before, but under the old Act to which I referred yesterday. They were given the privilege of coming in under the new Act, and so the bonus applies to them.
time forward on a different principle, and, on December 31, he will be given the part of the bonus of $20 proportionate to his length cf service under the new Act to the end of the year. After that, at the end of every Mr. FITZPATRICK.
year he will be paid the bonus of $20 if his conduct during the year has been satisfactory.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Irrespective of the amount of his salary ?


William Mulock: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: But, on this page there does not seem to be three who are paid the same amount.	[DOT]


William Mulock: The amount paid would depend upon the length of time from the date of the letter-carrier coming under the new Act to the end of the year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Some receive nothing at all ?


William Mulock: They are probably not under the new system.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it necessarily that, or does the payment depend at all upon good conduct ?


William Mulock: If a man does not deserve it, he does not get it. If he has been guilty of misconduct sufficient in the opinion of his superior officer to disentitle him to the bonus, it would not be paid to him.
Mr. BERGERON, I suppose that would be decided by the postmaster or deputy postmaster ?


William Mulock: The postmaster is responsible.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is at his discretion? It does not come to the office here ?


William Mulock: We have nothing to do with it. The men are reported on by the officers where they work. It is perfectly fair ; there is no politics in it and no interference.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I suppose not. I merely wanted to know the principle on which it was done. Now, on what principle does the Postmaster General proceed in determining what places shall have letter-carriers ?


William Mulock: There is no rule. When it seems necessary in the public interest, and a wise thing to do then the system is established. Not many cities have been brought under the system. I think I have only brought one under it- Brantford.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the population of Brantford ?


William Mulock: I think the revenue of Brantford post office was over $36,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Would the revenue be one reason for establishing the letter-carrier system ?


William Mulock: It would be a circumstance to be considered.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And the population too, I suppose ?


William Mulock: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the population of Brantford ?


William Mulock: I could not say.


Samuel Hughes: The bon. member for Brantford city (Mr. Cockshutt) would be able to inform the committee.


Mr. COCKSHUTT.: The population of Brantford city is about 18,000. The population of the parliamentary division is different, because Brantford takes in also a part of the country district with a population of about 5,000.	.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: In what cities has the letter-carrier system been established ?


William Mulock: Halifax, St. John, Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto, Hamilton, Brantford, London, Winnipeg, Vancouver and Victoria.


George Eulas Foster: There is some talk of a pneumatic tube system for certain cities. Will the Postmaster General please give us an idea of what is contemplated, and what the cost and advantages are likely to be ?


William Mulock: A contract I.as been let for the .manfaeture of tubes for a pneumatic system for Toronto and Montreal. These are the only cities for which there has been any parliamentary provision. The money was voted last session, and the matter is in charge of the Public Works Department.


George Eulas Foster: What will be the extent of the system in these two cities.


William Mulock: The scheme for Toronto is to have tubes from the post office to be established wherever the Union station is, to the main post office at the head of Toronto Street, and also to the sub-office at the subway on Queen Street West. In Montreal it is proposed to acquire a site- it may have been acquired by this time- to erect a station post office near Bonaven-ture station, and to connect that office by pneumatic tube with the main post office. That is the extent of the work for which there is a parliamentary appropriation.
Mr. F'OSTER. These tubes will be used, I suppose, for the transmission of the incoming mail matter to the central post office and of the collections at the central post office to the railway V


William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Is it intended that the whole service shall be done by the tube ?


William Mulock: We shall utilize it as much as possible. I do not know whether or not it will be equal to the demands upon it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has it been decided to build a branch post office in the St. James division. Montreal ? Before the session opened I saw a correspondence about it in the papers, saying that an application had been made, and we were told the matter was being taken into serious consideration.


William Mulock: That is a matter for the Public Works Department.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The construction of it, but the request for it must come from the hon. gentleman. If the hon. gentleman says he wants a branch here, it will be built.


William Mulock: I am not able to give my hon. friend a scheme for the erection of public buildings in Montreal in connection with the post office. I know it has been the subject of investigation and inquiry, and the officials of the department have furnished to the Minister of Public Works a requisition, probably, in regard to the matter. But I do not pretend to give any details.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has my hon. friend decided to recommend the establishment of a branch post office in St. James division, the eastern part of the city ?


William Mulock: 1 am not sufficiently familiar with the geography of Montreal, with the names of the wards and streets, to be able to speak upon that question with any degree of satisfaction to myself. I do remember that a decision was come to, to recommend the acquisition of a location for an office near the station. But I cannot say about these other points.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Perhaps I may be able to help my hon. friend's memory by reminding him of the fact that the member for St. James division, Montreal (Mr. Ger-vais), some time ago made a demand upon the hon. gentleman for the esablishment of a branch post office in the eastern part of Montreal, a great commercial division. If my hon. friend has not decided to recommend it, I do not know how the Minister of Public Works could ask parliament for an appropriation for that purpose. The Minister of Public Works will not ask any money from parliament to build a branch post office in that part of the city unless the hon. gentleman asks for it.


William Mulock: If the hon. gentleman will look into the estimates he will see that there was an appropriation. Whatever was in the estimates was put there in accordance with the views of the department. I have not got the' estimates of last year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Well, the Minister of Public Works would not build a post office

anywhere without having first been advised by the Postmaster General.


William Mulock: I presume not.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Then the hon. gentleman must remember whether he has advised the erection of a branch in St. James division.


William Mulock: If I had advised it, I would not hesitate to tell my hon. friend exactly. I am very anxious to improve the service at Montreal ; it has been the subject of investigation and inquiry. I think the views of the department have been presented to the Minister of Public Works.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does my hon. friend remember receiving a letter about it from the member for St. James division ? That might help him to remember.


William Mulock: Do not ask me to talk about letters that I have not here.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Could not the hon. gentleman find out whether he did get a letter from the member for St. James division ?


William Mulock: If I had, I might not think it proper to divulge the letter.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It was published in the papers.


William Mulock: Then my hon. friend has seen it ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Certainly ; and I am surprised the Postmaster General has not seen it.


William Mulock: If he sent me a letter, I suppose I received it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Now, we are coming to the point. I want to know from my hon. friend if he has decided to recommend the building of a branch post office in that part of Montreal. Since he says himself that in the estimates of the Minister of Public Works there will be an amount of money-


William Mulock: I did not: speak of the future ; I said there had been a provision in the estimates of last session for giving additional facilities in Montreal.


William Foster Cockshutt: I would like to ask the hon. Postmaster General if he intends to place an amount in the estimates for improving the service in Brantford ? Brantford is receiving at present a little over $5,000 per annum, whereas Kingston, giving si revenue about the same as Brantford, is receiving over $18,000 per annum. We think the facilities there are not what they should be. that the building is inadequate, and the whole service needs reorganization. The board of trade has pressed for that for several years, and I think they hove communicated with the minister with reference to it. We would esteem it an act of justice if the minister would place an addi-Mr. BERGERON.
tional amount in the estimates for Brantford, making a more liberal allowance to the men employed there all round. I think they are underpaid. The letter-carriers are fairly well paid, I do not think they are complaining ; but the general administration of the office is not very satisfactory to the business men. They pressed that point upon the minister last year, and I think it was investigated, but very little has been done. There has been a coat of paint applied to the outside of the building and some slight reorganization inside. But the building is not adequate for the purposes of the Post Office, the Inland Revenue and the Cus-oms Departments, for which it is now used. We think it is not in keeping with the position of Brantford commercially. It may have been adequate twenty-five years ago, when the revenue derived from the post office was about one-third what it is to day. I would like to ask the minister if anything is going to be done about it ?


William Mulock: With regard to the first part of my hon. friend's question as to whether there is to be an additional building, I cannot anticipate the estimates that are to be brought down. As to whether there is sufficient money expended upon the staff, or whether the service itself could be improved, those are departmental matters with which I am bound to deal. We have what is called a superintendent of city post offices, whose duty it is to keep himself advised of the conditions of city post offices and to report. If tbal; officer should report that it was necessary to make any changes in the management and the business of the Brantford post office, the department would be very much influenced by his advice, and would endeavour to give effect to it. I am not aware that lie has made any report or recommendation that has not been attended to.


William Foster Cockshutt: There is this important point, that while Brantford receives an expenditure of only $5,147, Kingston receives $18,978, and the revenue of the two offices is about the same ; if there is any difference it is in favour of Brantford. We think the expenditure is altogether out of proportion to the revenue which the office returns to the department. Either we are getting a great deal too little, or Kingston is getting too much.


William Mulock: I think my hon. friend has made a mistake in' his figures when he says that Brantford is only receiving $5,147. That sum represents only the salaries of the letter-carriers. There is paid in salaries to the staff $6,829 ; altogether over $12,000 a year is paid to the Brantford staff, inside and outside.


George Eulas Foster: If my hon. friend beside me is through with that other business, I want to ask the hon. Postmaster General a question on another point. That is in refer-

ence to rural delivery. Has the hon. minister come to any conclusion in reference to the introduction of that system ? It strikes me that at one time he had the idea that rural delivery might be experimentally tried in some sections of Canada. Does he hold that opinion now, or has he any intention of making any experiment in that way ?


William Mulock: I do not think I ever expressed myself in favour of even making the experiment.


Mr.   POSTER@: Yes.


William Mulock: I expressed myself in favour of properly and thoroughly investigating the system, its merits and demerits, and I have come to the conclusion that it is altogether premature to talk of rural delivery in Canada.


George Eulas Foster: The reason being the sparseness of the population ?


William Mulock: The conditions of Canada would not warrant it. It would involve this country in millions upon millions of dollars of expense. I think the prevailing opinion amongst the people of the United States is that they have established a system that in the course of time will be a burden upon them as great as the pension system, and I know that many of them would gladly recede from the system if they could, but it is too late. The United States congress four or five years ago voted $3,000,000 a year for this system. The vote went up to $6,000,000, then to $12,000,000. and now it is $20,000,000 a year, and they have not got beyond the fringe of the service yet.


Mr.   POSTER@: This, I believe, is a point the hon. gentleman has looked into. To what extent is it applied in the United States ? Is it applied to certain portions of the country ?


William Mulock: They have certain regulations. They pretend to confine it to places where the roads are good and where there is a certain number of people per mile, but those who are living in less favoured places are not content with these regulations, and the regulations are not strong enough to bind the public and politicians. So, they are face to face with the question now as to whether they will have to apply it everywhere throughout the whole United States.	.


Mr.   POSTER@: I think the hon. minister is wise in his conclusion that we are not yet quite in a position in Canada to adopt that system. I quite agree with him in that respect. Another point is as to the increase of rates of certain classes of mail matter, since last session, or was it before last session that this increase took place ? It is greatly complained of. and it is said that it has made burdensome the transmission of certain articles, take books, for instance, commercial documents, and the like of that; that it has made it almost impossible to transmit them by mail at any kind of reasonable cost. Sometimes the cost of the postage is equivalent to the cost of the book itself that is sent. I think the hon. minister has power under the law to make these changes to a certain extent in the revenues that he collects, or in the taxes he puts upon certain articles. I would like to know what were the increases made and upon what classes of material and whether the hon. minister is satisfied that he did a wise thing, and did not overburden certain classes of transmitted articles.


William Mulock: There are a number of different rates chargeable to different kinds of mail matter. My hon. friend will not perhaps ask me to define the different articles, but I will just by way of illustration say that there would be one rate for a lithograph and another rate for a printed picture, and there were fine distinctions as to whether a bit of mail matter came under one rate or another. It was found perfectly impracticable to apply such fine discriminations in the practical working of a post office. Mail matter is brought in at a late hour and the staff cannot open the packages to see that they are properly prepaid. They had to have a practical scheme, and accordingly we endeavoured to reduce the classification. There is the letter rate, the newspaper rate, the parcel post rate, and the rate on miscellaneous articles.


Mr.   POSTER@: That is one of the classes on which the raise took place.


William Mulock: My hon. friend is not correct in describing it as a raise. This was discussed ad nauseam last session. When the Deputy Postmaster General was here last session, I remember asking him the question, and he told me that whilst they had grouped all of the miscellaneous articles into one class, it did not amount to a raise generally, although you might pick out an isolated item and say that there was a raise in respect to that one item, for example, as regards books. The rate on books in Canada is as low as it is in Great Britain, or the United States, or, I fancy, anywhere in the world.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: In his last answer, the hon. Postmaster General spoke about a sum of money that had been voted last session for a site in Montreal. I find in the estimates the following items :
Montreal post office-improvements, $25,000.
Montreal post office-installation of pneumatic tube system for post office purposes, $55,000.
Montreal new postal station-site and building, $75,000.
Will my hon. friend tell me in what part of Montreal this site is, or where this post office will be situated ?


William Mulock: I think chat is intended for the postal station, in the vicinity of Bonaventure station.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And the amount of $55,000 for the pneumatic tube system is entirely for that system and not for a building ? They are two different things ?


William Mulock: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And the site of this new postal station will be near the Bonaventure station, of which my hon. friend Spoke a few moments ago. Do I understand that ?


William Mulock: I have said so, so many times that I did not think it necessary to repeat it. That item is to supply a postal station and plant in the vicinity of the railway station.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: So it has nothing at all to do with any post office branch in St. James division or any other part of the city of Montreal ?


Samuel Hughes: Is the hon. Postmaster General taking steps to have the post offices in the Northwest Territories opened up as settlement goes on from place to place ?


William Mulock: Yes, I think so.
Indians, Ontario and Quebec-relief, medical attendance and medicines, Quebec, $5,600.


George Eulas Foster: ' Before going into that, I may say that in looking over the Auditor General's Report I find that the First Minister in some way fell into error in reference to the promotion of .Mr. Bray to a chief clerkship. The reason given for the promotion was that when a deserving clerk in a class below had come to the maximum ofl his class and was a good clerk and there was no vacancy it was then legitimate to create a clerkship in the class above and translate him by promotion to that class. The right hon. gentleman's whole contention was on the ground that Mr. Bray had several years, and there are also two clerks tout I find from the report that he had not reached the maximum, that he got last year only $1,650 and that the only person who has reached the maximum in that class was Mr. MeGirr, who is at his maximum and has been at his maximum for several years, and there are also two clerks who are as high as or higher than Mr. Bray in point of salary, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Orr. This requires some explanation.


Wilfrid Laurier: I shall give the information to my hon. friend at the next sitting.


George Eulas Foster: Coming to the item, is that relief administered on the same principle as when I was in the House before?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am not aware that there is any change at all ;


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: it is given for actual medicines and for medical services. I shall read the explanation.
The [DOT] Indians in the province of Quebec have with a few exceptions no funds of their own, and it has always been found necessary to provide funds for relief of destitute and for seed and medical attendance. Assistance in the way of relief is only extended to such Indians as are shown to be in actual need of the necessaries of life through sickness or some other unavoidable cause. Seed is only supplied to such Indians as have land ready for cultivation and who are unable to procure seed themselves, and it is supplied as near seeding time as possible. The cost of medical attendance is gradually increasing. It seems that not only in this province but in all, the cost of this service increases with the advance of civilization.
The amount provided for the year 1903-4 was

The expenditure was $4,153.17.
Annual salaries are paid from this grant to the undermentioned physicians :
Dr. Jules Constantine, Pointe Bleue ..$500	00
J. A. Claveau, M.D., Chicoutimi	
200	00J. A. Pelletier, M.D., St. Urbain	
50	00W. Ouimet, M.D., Oka	
100	00P. W. McCartney, M.D., Gaspe	
SO	00E. Allard, M.D., Escoumains	
200	00L. G. Pinault, M.D., Restigouche	
200	00
Other physicians are paid according to the attendance given from time to time. A portion of the cost of maintenance of Indian patients in the provincial lunatic asylums in Quebec is also paid from this vote.


George Eulas Foster: How are the supplies that are given out in small quantities to the Indians purchased ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Through the agents on the reserves.


George Eulas Foster: There seems to be a distinction between medical officers and the attendance of doctors. Have you some medical officers entirely devoted to the work of the Indians?


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that on some of the reserves there are regularly attending physicians at yearly salaries and the others are simply called in for attendance and paid by fees. They send in their bills for services rendered and are paid.
Indians. Ontario-relief, medical attendance and medicine, $3,300.


Wilfrid Laurier: The attendance in Ontario is of very much the same character. I shall give it in detail as I have it here.
This grant is intended for the assistance of sick and destitute Indians belonging to bands in the province of Ontario which have no funds in the hands of the department. The fixed charges against this grant are :-	[DOT]


Dr.  J. W.@: McIntosh, Manitoulin Islands
and North Shore	$1S4 00
(The balance of Dr. McIntosh's salary of of $1,000 is paid by the band.)


Dr.  J. H.@: Arthur, Spanish River	 75 00
(The balance of Dr. Arthur's salary of $600 is paid by the band.)


Dr.  F. H.@: Mitchell, Oneida Reserve.. ..$300 00


Dr.  J. F.@: James, Munsee Reserve	 60 00


Dr.  J. W.@: Merrill, Pogomasing and White
River	
100	00Dr.	E. Bedard, Mattawa	
200	00Dr.	Channonhouse, Golden	Lake	
200	00Dr.	J. M. Grady, Fort William	
50	00
(The band pays $75 additional.)
I observe from the report that each year the demand for relief is increasing in the unorganized districts of the province.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it too late to inquire the name of the physician at the Caugbna-waga reserve?


Wilfrid Laurier: There is no regular physician for this reserve. The Indians pay their own fees for the services rendered, and the account is sent here and paid.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There is no regular physician.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in understanding that this is all that is paid out for medical attendance and medicine for Indians in the various provinces. I see you have Quebec, $5,000 and Ontario $3,300. Are no other salaries or payments made to medical men for attending Indians?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am giving the names of all the men who have been appointed to receive yearly salaries for attending the Indians. If there are reserves which have no regular physicians, and where the services of a physician are required, he is sent for, and his account is paid ; but everything is paid out of this appropriation.
Indians blankets and clothing, Ontario and Quebec, $500.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where are these bought and from whom ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are
bought by tender. Last year they were furnished by Horn Bros., of Lindsay.
Indian Schools-Maritime Provinces. Ontario and Quebec, $49,230.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is the same vote as usual.


George Eulas Foster: Are the schools being satisfactorily carried on ? What are the results from year to year ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not
know how far we claim to have made progress in the education of the Indians, but I do not know that any retrogression has taken place either. The Indian, as my hon. friend knows, is rather refractory in regard to education. I understand from the department that the condition of things is about the same from year to year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How many schools are at Caughnawaga ?


Wilfrid Laurier: The number of schools in the province of Quebec is 17, 8
the number of pupils on the roll 795 and the average attendance 377. At Caughnawaga there are two Roman Catholic schools, each with a hoys' division and a girls' division, and one Methodist school, at Lorette 1, at Becancour 1, at Oka Village and country 2, at Restigouehe River 1, at Temiscaming 1, at Lake St. John 1, at Maria 1, at Mani-wakl 1, at Lake St. Francis 2, at Betsia-mits 1, and at St. Regis 2.


George Eulas Foster: Is the school population from year to year increasing, diminishing, or keeping about stationary? Also, is the attendance compulsory ? If we provide the school and the teacher, there ought to be means taken to see that the greatest benefit is got out of it for all the children.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that there Is not much progress in that direction. The attendance is about stationary. There are compulsory clauses which the government may enforce, hut whether that is done or not, I do not know.


George Eulas Foster: Can the minister say what are the general effects of the schooling on the children ? Do they still remain Indians, with all their desires, or do they get any higher ideals from going to these schools ?
'Sir WILFRID LAURIER. On that point I cannot speak for the department; I speak from my own information. I am afraid we cannot have very much hope in that respect. Some years ago, at the time the Indians had a vote, I remember being in tbe province of Ontario, in a riding where there was a large Indian reserve, on which there were about seventy families of the Five Nations who were still pagans, who spoke their own language, and absolutely refused to be taught English. In the province of Quebec, so far as I have been able to see, the Indians at Lorette and Caughnawaga, Lorette especially, they are slowly improving. But they still live in tribes and pursue their own industries of fishing, hunting, and manufacturing certain Indian curiosities. Some of them, however, are educated, even liberally educated, and have joined the professions. Some have gone into the ministry. But speaking generally, I am afraid we cannot claim that we have trained the red man to the standard that we would like.


George Eulas Foster: I acknowledge that it is a somewhat hopeless and despondent task ; but I suppose we are obliged to do all we possibly can to put these advantages before them. What are these children taught ? After they get through, are they able to read and write and do arithmetic, and thus somewhat fitted for business ? Do they carry away anything with them in the shape of learning, and do they apply any of their knowledge to mechanical work in the schools ?


Wilfrid Laurier: My informa' tion from the department is that at the



[DOT]day schools they are taught simply the primaries which are taught to w'hite children. As regards results, if X can give personal experience, a large deputation last year from the Oka Indians waited on me. One of them was certainly a very well read man. He had a bundle of papers to show his titles and was well versed in the history of his tribe from the early concessions of the French kings down to the present. He could read and write very well. I believe that in the Ottawa and Quebec tribes the knowledge of reading and writing is pretty well distributed, but whether they apply that knowledge to the arts of life and to bettering their circumstances, I am unable to say.


George Eulas Foster: Does the department know from its experience whether, as a result of a generation of education, the Indians who have grown up in these schools really do any amount of general reading?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are large readers of the periodicals and the daily press.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at G p.m.

Friday, January 27, 1905.