1905-01-25

QUESTIONS.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. MORIN asked ;
1.	What is the actual cost to the government of the steamer ' Champlain ' delivered at Quebec ?
2.	What average sum per diem has the said steamer ' Champlain ' cost the government since she arrived at Quebec ?
1.	Who are the present members of the Harbour Commission of the port of Montreal appointed by the government ?
2.	When were the several appointments made ?
3.	What is the length of their term of office 7
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and'Fisheries):: 1.	Hon. Robert Mackay, Jonathan Hodgson. Robert Bickerdike, M.P., Alphonse Racine, Eustache H. Lemay and W. E. Doran.

2.	The date of appointment of tlie first five was September 28, 1890. The date of Mr. Doran's appointment was April 15, 1902.
3.	During pleasure.


Mr. AMES asked:: 1.	Has Mr. Jonathan Hodgson tendered his resignation as a member of the Board of Commissioners for the port of Montreal ?
2.	If so, what reasons did he give for his action ?
3.	Has the said resignation been accepted ?
4.	Is it the intention of the government to name another in his place ?
5.	If so, when will the nomination be made ?


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Yes; March 23, 1904.
2.	Personal reasons.
3.	No.
_ 4- No. The intention of the government is to revise the whole organization of the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal this session.
5.	Answered by the answer to No. 4.


OCEAN AND RIVER SERVICE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. xlMES asked:
1.	Referring to the estimates for 1904-5, in which occurred the following Item : Ocean and river service, further amount required for removal of obstructions, including sunken elevator at Montreal, and obstruction in Ostall river, B.C., $9,000, and regarding which it was stated in the House by the Hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries that $7,000 of this amount was for the raising of the above elevator, has this amount been reimbursed to the government by the parties interested, or are any steps being taken to secure the repayment of same ?
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	The cost of raising the sunken elevator at Montreal has been paid to the Montreal Harbour Commissioners by the Montreal Grain Elevating Company. The Department of Marine and Fisheries has been put to no expense in the matter.


STEEL SHEDS-MONTREAL HARBOUR.
Mr. AMES asked:: 1.	When were the plans, specifications and estimates for the steel sheds, presently being constructed in the port of Montreal, first approved by the government ?
2.	Since the aforesaid approval have any alterations in said plans, specifications and estimates been authorized by the government ?
3.	Since the awarding of the contract by the Harbour Commission have any alterations in the terms thereof received the sanction of the ^government, and if so, what are they ?


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: *
1.	December 21, 1903.
2.	No.
3.	No.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 


MR. P. W. ST. GEORGE.
Mr. AMES asked :: 1. Is there at present in the employment of the Department of Marine and Fisheries a party by the name of P. W. St. George ?
2.	If so, when did his term of service commence ; for what work was he engaged ; and what remuneration has he to date received ?
3.	What degrees, titles or certificates does the said P. W. St. George hold as engineer ; and what previous experience has he had in the matter of the construction of steel sheds ?
4.	Has the said P. W. St. George prepared plans independent of the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal for steel wharf sheds ? If so, when, and at whose instance ; and have any such plans been submitted to or approved by the Governor in Council, or by the Minister of Public Works, or by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries ?


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: 1.	Yes.
2.	August .9, 1904. As engineer to superintendent, in conjunction with the engineer of the Montreal Harbour Commissioners the construction of sheds and conveyor galleries in the harbour of Montreal.
He has been paid up to date, $1,107.07.
3.	He is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers of London, England, and a member of the Council of the Canadian Society of Civil Engineers. - This is considered sufficient guarantee of his professional standing.
4.	In October, 1904. At the instance of the minister to embody changes suggested ly the Shipping Federation and other parties interested. They have been submitted to the Minister of Marine ami Fisheries and are now under consideration.
IMPORTS UNDER PREFERENTIAL TARIFF. Mr. DANIEL asked :
1.	What is the amount and value of goods imported into Canada under the preferential tariff during the years 1903 and 1904 ?
2.	Of these amounts, what proportion was imported through St. Lawrence ports, and what proportion through Canadian Atlantic ports ?
3.	What amounts were imported through United States ports, and what were the ports, and what was the amount for each such ports ?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: 1.	The Customs Statistical Returns do not enable an answer to be given to this inquiry, except as to the value of goods entered for consumption in Canada under the Preferential Tariff, which was as follows :
For fiscal year 1902-3, $37,014,505.
For fiscal year 1903-4, $44,705,253.
2.	-3. The Customs Statistical Returns do not show separately the goods imported through the United States of the St. Lawrence or Atlantic ports of Canada when entered under the Preferential Tariff. We could give from the total imports under both the General and Preferential Tariffs,

the quantity that came in at the Atlantic and St. Lawrence ports and the American ports, but we cannot distinguish with reference to the Preferential goods in that respect.


TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. WARD-by Mr. Foster-asked :
1.	What surveys, if any, have been made during the past year, of proposed routes of the Trent Valley Canal between Rice Lake and Lake Ontario ?
2.	By whom have such surveys been made ?
3.	Have any reports of such surveys been received by the government ?
Hon. II. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	Surveys have been or are being made between Rice Lake and Port Hope, also between Rice Lake and Cobourg and between Rice Lake and Trenton in connection with the Trent canal.
2.	The surveys are being conducted by Mr. E. ,T. Walsh, C.E.:
Port Hope survey being made by Mr. G. L. Law.	.
Cobourg survey being made by Mr. G. L. Law.
Trenton survey being made by Mr. S. E. Patterson.
3.	No reports have yet been received of the results of these surveys, which are not
, finished.


MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSION-PERMANENT SHEDS.
Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved:: For copies of all correspondence between the Board of Montreal Harbour Commissioners and the Department of Marine and Fisheries in regard to the erection of permanent sheds upon the wharfs in the harbour of Montreal ; and of the correspondence had 'between the government an'd the Federation of Shippers ; and engineers' reports in the possession of the government upon the same subject ; also copies of correspondence between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and F. D. Monk. M.P., upon the same subject.
He said :	The object of this motion is
to obtain all the correspondence which has taken place within the last two or three years between the government and the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal. It is desired also to have some light thrown, by the production of that correspondence, upon the difficulties alleged to exist among the Harbour Commissioners, or if not within that body itself, between the Harbour Board and the government. These difficulties have undoubtedly delayed the prosecution of the harbour improvements and more particularly the construction of the permanent sheds, which were expected to be terminated for the opening of navigation.
It is also desired to know what is the policy of the government in reference to the Montreal Harbour Board, and if the government intends, during the present session, remodelling and changing completely the constitution of the board. I perceive by an answer given by my hon. friend the Minister pf Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine) a moment ago, that that object is in contemplation; hence it is that we are interested, not only in Montreal, hut I submit all over the Dominion, in knowing what those changes are. Let me state, Sir, for the information of tlie House, that the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal are a very old institution. The administration of the harbour may be said to have been organized long before confederation, and indeed previous to the union of the two Canadas. The first statute relating to harbour administration in the port of Montreal is 6 William IV, chap. 20; and from time to time during the union that statute was amended by tlie parliament of United Canada. Since confederation, no less, I believe, than twenty-one amendments were made to tlie law organizing as a body tlie Harbour Commissioners of Montreal, defining their jurisdiction and indicating tlie limits of tlie harbour itself.
In 1894 the legislation to which I have just referred was consolidated by chapter-48 of 57 and 58 Victoria, known as the Montreal Harbour Commissioners' Act of 1S94, which is the law as it stands to-day. Under the terms of this law, I think it is well to remind the House, the Montreal Harbour Board, the administration of tlie harbour, is, in an indirect manner, under tlie control of tlie Dominion government. Tlie corporation of the Harbour Board of Montreal now consists of eleven commissioners, of whom six are appointed by the Governor General in Council, and hold their office during pleasure. The mayor of Montreal is ex-officio, during his occupation of tlie magisterial chair, that is during his term of office, a member of the Montreal Harbour Board. In addition there are four commissioners elected by each of the following bodies for four years : First, the commissioner elected by the Montreal Board of Trade, another commissioner elected by tlie Montreal Com Exchange Association, another by the Chambre de Commerce de Montreal, and finally, a fourth by tlie shipping interests; that is to say, persons or companies having offices in Montreal, owners or agents of sea-going vessels entering the harbour of Montreal for the purpose of trade. This legislation of 1894 not only defines anew the limits of the harbour, but gives the commissioners extensive powers of borrowing, expropriating, executing improvements, and levying tolls and rates.
A word now as to the personnel of the commission as it is composed at the present time. The members of the commission named by the government and occupying their positions during pleasure, are : The Hon. Robert Mackay, president of tlie

In a continuous manner, and when tliis interruption was calculated to be very detrimental to them. It was stated in the town of Lacliine by a number of people who were not my most active supporters in the last election that the suspension of these works was to be attributed to the fact that the county of Jacques Cartier had not elected a supporter of the government. Mr. Speaker, I think I may say to you who have been elevated by the unanimous vote of this House to the high position you occupy outside entirely of the field of active politics, and I think you will be prepared to admit, that there are a great many cunning men in the Liberal party who are endowed with the wisdom of the serpent. I deemed it incumbent upon myself to make an investigation, because I am bound to say that I never for one instant supposed that this government would have been so machina-vellic as to endeavour to obtain a suspension of these works being carried on at Lachine out of pure party spirit. I corresponded in regard to the subject with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and he gave me every assurance that the cause of the suspension was not what I have just mentioned that it was represented to be and I believe he also gave me the assurance, as the correspondence will show, that he would endeavour to bring that matter to au immediate settlement, which, 1 believe, he has endeavoured to do.
Xow, what in reality, has been the c'ause of these difficulties which seem to have existed between the Harbour Commissioners or amongst them and the government of this country ? I have been unable to find for this question an absolutely definite solution, but I have no doubt that some light will be thrown upon the subject by the lion. Minister of Marine and Fisheries himself, and by the correspondence which will be brought down. There was a consulting engineer named by the government, if I well understood the answer given to-day by the lion. Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the question put by my hon. friend from St. Antoine division (Mr. Ames), and 1 believe that there have been serious differences of opinion between that consulting engineer and the regular engineer of the Board. I believe that these two gentlemen are both qualified to advise the Harbour Board and the authorities in charge of the carrying out of these improvements, and it would be, I think, highly desirable that the government should use its influence because in reality not only has it the supervision, but as I have indicated before, it lias the absolute control of the majority of that board, and it would be desirable I say that the government should exercise its influence to harmonize, if possible, the relations existing between these two engineers in charge of the works.
It has been said that differences have existed even between some members of the Mr. MONK.
Board and the hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. 1'refontaine) and it has been said that my hon. friend from the St. Lawrence division of Montreal (Mr. Bicker-dike) is one of those who have had serious differences of opinion with the Minister of .Marine and Fisheries in regard to what was to be done in the harbour of Montreal, and there are others also. Possibly the hon. gentleman will be able to throw some light upon that subject himself. What we particularly desire to know and what I trust the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will be able to tell us is, in the first place, whether the plans for the present improvements have received the approval of the department and if they have received that approval, and if no change has occurred, if the present ^i mister of Marine and Fisheries is of the same opinion as the previous minister who no doubt was called upon to give his approval to those plans, then what are the causes of delay and of difficulty? There is also the larger question which I mentioned when I opened my rermirus and it is this: Is it the policy of the government to change the present order of things and to assume immediately or during the present session, under legislation to be introduced, complete control of the port of Montreal, Tlie Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine) will remember that last year lie. gave notice of a Bill relating to' the Montreal Harbour Board, a Bill which was no doubt intended to modify in some degree tlie present law. My hon. friend gave notice of that Bill but towards tlie end of the session, I think in May last, he withdrew the Bill and I do not believe the House ever had any knowledge of what were the provisions or dispositions of law contained in that,Bill. In regard to this latter question, which is one of very much importance not only to ourselves in Montreal but to the Dominion at large, opinions are divided. There are a great many who believe that it would be in the interest of the port of Montreal and of the country in general that the government should assume absolute control of that very important port, and make it a national port and a free port. That opinion is entertained by many, and if I liad time Sir, I would read to the House a very interesting report which I have here which was prepared by a sub-committee of ' La Cbambre de Commerce de 'Montreal, a body represented by election upon the Board of Harbour Commissioners, a report prepared with tlie object of showing that the change to which I have alluded would be a change in tlie interest of tlie harbour of Montreal and of tlie commerce of the country generally. There are others who undoubtedly fear that if that change was carried into effect the administration of the harbour of Montreal would no longer be participated in by representatives of our great commercial bodies ns it is at present, would no longer be participated in by the mayor of Montreal,

one of the Harbour Commissioners ex-officio, and 1 may mention for the information of the House that the city of Montreal in 1902 contributed over $125,000 to these harbour improvements. There is a fear in other words, Mr. Speaker, that the administration of the affairs of the hoard would assume a political aspect and that the business interests would not be sufficiently represented. It seems to me, after having gone fully into the matter, that it would be possible to obtain the great .advantage of the government making the port of Montreal a national port, assuming its cumbersome debt and administering the port without at the same lime sacrificing the right of representation, which under the present law is reserved for the shipping, commercial and business interests of Montreal, nor would it, I think, hi; absolutely necessary to eliminate from representation on the Board of Commissioners, if such were created for the administration of the port, some representation from the city of Montreal itself. The House will understand that these questions are questions of importance upon which we have a right to expect some information and enlighten-i ment -from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. 'I hope, Sir, that nothing which I have said has tended to reflect upon the Harbour Board as at present constituted, which is a body entitled to the greatest respect, but there are two observations which I would make, one is that it appears from reports of recent meetings of the board that the difficulties to which I have alluded do in reality exist and that these meetings of that important body convened for practical and urgent purposes are sometimes employed in wliat would appear to be a purposeless manner. I have here a copy of the Montreal ' Witness ' of Saturday, ' January 21 last, in which appears a report of the meeting of the hoard which occupies some three columns. It is entitled ' A wrangle over an inventory ' and, without taking up the time of the House in reading that report, which is somewhat long, I may say that members of the House, by looking at that report, will understand that there was some truth in what appears to have been said by a member of the board present at that meeting. He is reported to have said:
We are ridiculous before the public. How much more ridiculous we are making ourselves.
Perhaps this comment upon the proceedings of the board was a little severe, particularly when applied to men occupying high business positions such as the members of the Montreal Harbour Board, but from one end of that report to the other it appears that the time of the meeting was taken up in discussing subsidiary questions. A violent altercation for instance occurred between the hon. member for the St. Lawrence division (Mr. Bickerdike) and some other members of the board as to whether the storekeeper had been absent for 6
a month or less than a month on election work. My hon. friend for St. Lawrence Division (Mr. Bickerdike) if he looks over this report will see that there was a great deal of excitement in regard to what I consider a Question of not very much importance, in view of the really very important matters that the board has to deal with at the present moment. The general impression in the city of Montreal is that there are difficulties there that should be assuaged. A general impression also exists that the government has a policy in regard to the administration of the board and that policy is a policy of change and of improvement. A French paper of Montreal, ' La Presse,' I think I may say an organ favourable to the government, "on January 21 last alluded to that general impression in the following words:
Rumour has it once more that it is the intention of the government to submit to the parliament the abolition of the harbour commission and to substitute in its place five standing commissioners who will give all their time to the business of the harbour.
As a matter of course, such commissioners would be paid by the government.
The commission so reconstituted would be put under the jurisdiction of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
There are other points of information there which do not bear exactly upon the question which I have just alluded to- Under all the circumstances, Mr. Speaker, I think the production of this correspondence and a declaration from the government as to what its policy is at the present moment in regard to the port will be information very gratefully received by this House and the public at large.


Mr. ROBERT BICKERDIKE (St. Lawrence, Montreal).: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended taking any part in this discussion, as I felt that the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries would bring down all the correspondence that has been asked for, only that my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) has alluded to me as being one of the wrangling members of the Harbour Commission. It is true that a large body of merchants, eleven in all, cannot always be of one mind. If they were, there would be no necessity of having eleven ; it would be sufficient to have one. There is hardly an institution in existence, commercial or otherwise, in which there are not sometimes differences of opinion. If the newspaper reports are correct, even in the Tory caucuses, which my hon. friend sometimes attends, there are differences of opinion.


Mr. FOSTER.: Fight like blazes.


Robert Bickerdike: I think there is no better guarantee that the funds of the pub-lie will be judiciously expended than the fact that there are on that board different representatives who have different views.
, The best proof of that fact is that we have



now a port which, while not complete by any means, is very much better than it ever was before. With regard to the permanent sheds which my hon. friend has alluded to, there has been considerable discussion. He will, I am sure, remember that we had meetings with all the different commercial bodies of Montreal on that subject, and that we thrashed it out for nearly a year getting ideas from the steamship companies, the railway companies and the minister himself. Finally we had a joint meeting of all the interested bodies in Montreal, at which I think the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Minister of Public Works were present, and the Prime Minister as well. The various ideas on the subject were threshed out on that occasion, and the general consensus of opinion was that for the upper or extreme western portion of the harbour, which the large mail and passenger steamers mostly frequent, double-decked sheds were absolutely necessary, that in the centre of the harbour, the section known as the Bonsecours market district, which is frequented by the large freight and cargo steamers, single sheds would be sufficient, and that at the eastern end of the harbour, which is chiefly used for lumber and coal, no sheds would be required.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Might 1 interrupt my hon. friend to ask him if this was decided on before the trip which the Harbour Commissioners made within the last three or four months to the United States for the purpose of inspecting the permanent sheds there ?


Robert Bickerdike: The Harbour Commissioners did not make a trip recently to the United States to examine the permanent sheds. The recent trip to which my hon. friend alludes was made by the Harbour Commissioners for the purpose of examining the railway terminals. It was in January, 1903, that it was decided to build the permanent sheds in Montreal. I will just read, for the information of my hon. friend, one of the motions that was then adopted :
After an examination of the plans and a very long discussion, it was moved by Mr. Robert, Reford, seconded by Mr. Lemay, that the plans of the sheds on the wharfs prepared by the chief engineer he approved.-Carried.
It was in January, 1904, that the Harbour Commissioners went to the United States to examine the terminals of the railways. So far as I know, there has been no delay. I think it is a mistake to say that the bridge works at Lacliine, in the county which my hon. friend represents, stopped work on that account. I have no doubt they closed down during the winter months, just as a great many factories do, when there is not much to do ; hut it was not on account of any change in the plans. It is true, the government have had some plans submitted to them, and they are looking into them to see whether they would he any improvement Mr. BICKERDIKE.
on the old plans ; but up to the present time there has been no change in the plans. So that that story about the bridge works is entirely without foundation. We must have, Mr. Speaker, at Montreal the best harbour on the continent, and it will be made so either by the present board or by our successors. What Montreal requires is these permanent sheds, with good elevators. We have now one elevator belonging to the harbour, two belonging to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and two or three belonging to the Grand Trunk Railway. There is no reason whatever why the harbour of Montreal should not, inside of two years, be the best equipped harbour in America and become the Liverpool of this country. Even with the reduction of over 40 per cent that was made in Montreal on the harbour dues, we have still paid our interest, we have never repudiated it, and we hope to continue paying our interest out of revenue without any additional taxation.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Would my hon. friend, who is a member of the Board, tell me why no report has been issued for 1903 and 1904 ? The last report published was for 1902.


Robert Bickerdike: There is a very good reason for that. We have not had the time to get out the report for 1904. The report for 1903 was delayed on account of a difference in stock taking. When the stock was taken by the Harbour Board they were not quite certain whether it was quite correct or not, and they decided to take it over again. That could not be done in the summer and had to be postponed until the autumn. It is now being done, and the report will be out inside of a month.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
For copies of all Orders in Council, reports of the minister, recommending and authorizing the sale of government lands in the Northwest Territories during the years 1903 and 1904. Also a return of the lands sold, if any ; the rates and terms at which they were sold, and the persons to whom they were sold.-Mr. Foster.

George Eulas Foster: For copies of all correspondence had with the government or any member thereof, or with any official of the Intercolonial Railway, in reference to tile transport of hay during the year 1904, from points in Ontario and Quebec to points along the Intercolonial Railway, including the railway in Prince Edward Island. Also the -report' of the Minister to Council and the Order in Council, if any were passed, recommending or authorizing a rebate or reduction in the rates for -carrying the same. And the names of the parties to whom rebates or reductions in the -rate of freight upon hay were made, and the quantities shipped to each.


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: There is no objection to the motion, hut it may take some little time to prepare the return, became the papers are very largely at Moncton.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

George Eulas Foster: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would remind my hon. friend the Minister of Justice of the conversation we had across the floor the other day regarding the arbitration now going on, I have picked up incidentally some little information myself in respect of it, and I see that the arbitration really covers all the disputed points-of which there are a great many-between the Grand Trunk Railway and the Intercolonial Railway, from the contract of 1879 down to the latest, including those important ones with reference to the Drummond County Railway and the procuring of terminal advantages in the city of Montreal. I find also that the situation is really very grave and serious, and I think the House ought to have all the information that can be given it. I quite understand that the questions in dispute are being arbitrated but any papers that can be brought down ought to be brought down. Some of the points are extremely important, and the House should be possessed of all information concerning them as soon as possible.


Hon. CHAS. FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice).: There is no deed of submission, as I thought there was. The contract provides for an arbitration with respect to the difficulties referred to by my hon. friend, and the arbitrators are now adjudicating upon claims put forward, both by the government and the Grand Trunk Railway. In view of the statement I made in the House the other day, I thought it proper to apply to the gentlemen representing the government before the arbitrators for a 'statement. I received a very complete statement this morning, which I intend to have copied and laid on the table, and will have a copy sent to my hon. friend. In all probability in a day or two I shall be obliged to ask for leave to introduce a bill to amend the Act of last session, and will then be in a position to give further informas tion.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Post office-outside service, $1,694,238.50.
['I would like to ask the hon. Postmaster General to bring down, for the next meeting of the Committee, the report aliuded to by my hon. friend from St. Antoine, Montreal, in regard to the illegal stamping of letters which took jilace during the last election campaign.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 6 p.m.', 'Thursday, January 26, 1905.']
Hon.   S@: When the committee rose yesterday I was explaining the increase of $125,06S in the outside service. I had got 64
down to the last classification of increases, namely, the increases in the city post offices, which amounted to $92,680.75. I propose now to give the details. I will give the increase by classes :
375 increases of $50 each	$18,750 00
17S increases of $78.25 each	 18,928 00
19 increases of $30 each	 570 00
1 increase of $24	 24 00
52 additional appointments	 25,197 50
Short estimate 1904-5	 30,210 75
Increase in provisional allowance.. .. 4,000 00
Total	$92,680 75


George Eulas Foster: There is no benefit in going over the list; if there are any special cases the hon. gentleman might mention them.


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: There is nothing special. But perhaps I might give some particulars of that estimate of $30,000. There is someting I ought to explain. There is a short estimate of $30,210.75, and an increase in the provisional allowances of $4,000. That $4,000 is to provide for increasing the staff of the Winnipeg, Vancouver and Victoria post offices, and to meet the increased expenditures, and the increases in the salaries of the staff. The hon. gentleman will remember there is an increased provisional allowance given to the staffs in all the cities west of Ontario.


George Eulas Foster: At what rate is that given now ?
iSir WILLIAM MULOCK. In Manitoba and British Columbia to employees whose salaries are $800 and under, the provisional allowance is at the rate of $15 a month, or $180 a year. That is given on account of the increased cost of living in the west over the cost in eastern Canada.


George Eulas Foster: Is that on the same scale in Manitoba, the Northwest and British Columbia ?


William Mulock: The same.


George Eulas Foster: What difference is there between that scale now and the scale, say in 1896 ?


William Mulock: Allow me to complete the statement. I gave the provisional allowance where the salary is under $800. Where the salary is over $800 and running up to $900, clerks are paid an amount which will make the total income reach $980, this being the amount that would be received by a Clerk whose salary is $800 a year. Where the salary is $900 and up to $1,200 a year, _the allowance is at the rate of 10 per cent of the salary. Railway mail clerks are paid a provisional allowance at the rate of $10 monthly if the salary is less than $800, and from $800 to $960, the allowance is 10 per cent on the salary. There is no allowance when the salary exceeds $960 a year. I am told that the rate at a

former period was $10 a month, and it is now $15.


George Eulas Foster: Has the rate of living increased ?


William Mulock: When this increase was made it had been pressed upon us as a just provision. I think there is no doubt that in consequence of the recent de-\ elopment in Manitoba, and the large number of people going in there and into the Territories, the. cost of living has increased, and in British Columbia as well.


George Eulas Foster: Has the minister any data upon which he makes that statement or is it just an impression ? What means has he taken to find out ? It would seem to me that, with the opening up of that country, the larger number of railways and better communication, more products in the country itself, and all that, the cost of living should not increase-I mean over and above the rate of increase in other parts of the Dominion. I think the rate of living has increased in Toronto for instance. But has it increased more largely after all this development in the west, has it increased more largely there than it has in the east ? The hon. gentleman knows that the provisional allowance was first given because there was a difference between the scale of living in the east and west. Now if the scale of living has increased in the east and is equal, to say no more, to the increase in the west, there is no justification for the increase in that provisional allowance. I would like to have some information so that we may know upon what basis this is done. I hope the time will soon come when we will be able to treat these employees in their several classes just the same all through the Dominion. I think these distinctions and discriminations should cease as soon as possible.


William Mulock: It is not just lately that the increase has been made. It is three years since the increase was made in the provisional allowances. Speaking from memory, my recollection is that information was obtained as to the increased rental, and the value of many of the necessaries of life, in consequence of the great growth in the cities of Winnipeg and Vancouver. There was a careful consideration of the question, and I will give to my hon. friend proof that this was a necessary step. We could not retain in the service in the Winnipeg post office any persons who were appointed at the salary allowed by law, and with the old provisional allowance ; they could do far better elsewhere, we could not get fhern to remain with us, and they complained that they could not even subsist reasonably on the allowance made. In fact, the difficulty was so great that until this was brought about, we had to transfer officers from the older districts having larger salaries, to Winnipeg, Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
giving them a provisional allowance. But since we have increased the provisional allowance we do not experience the same difficulty. This allowance was made in two steps. Frst of all, it was given to the staff in Manitoba, and it was represented to us that the same reasons existed for giving it to the staff in British Columbia ; and it was not possible, on looking into the matter, to resist the argument, it seemed to be well supported. There were communications of different kinds, members on both sides of the House brought this matter up in parliament and pressed it on the attention of the government; so it was not a haphazard step at all.


Mr. DANIEL.: Have all the clerks in the St. John post office received the statutory increase who were entitled to it by length of service ?


William Mulock: I am told that all the members of the staff of the St. John post office with one exception were given increases. That was an exception on merit. That one person was not considered entitled to the increase.


John Waterhouse Daniel: On examination!


William Mulock: Proper inquiry by the department. My deputy is unavoidably absent on account of some domestic affliction, but the accountant informs me that the deputy passed upon that case deliberately, and thought that the clerk in question was not entitled to his increase. I do not interfere with these matters at all.


George Eulas Foster: What is the system ? Do you get reports from the postmasters.
Sir WILLIAM MULOCK- The practice is to require the superior officers-the postmasters-to report upon the merits of the different persons who are members of the staff, to furnish a good deal of detailed information and to give their opinion. The deputy in turn-


George Eulas Foster: The deputy here!


William Mulock: My deputy here. The deputy here also exercises some judgment or discretion, and as the result he brings to me his recommendation.


George Eulas Foster: The superintendent in the province has nothing to do with that!- Coulter, for instance, in New Brunswick!


William Mulock: No, the postmaster of St. John, for instance, would speak for the St. John post office. These matters do not pass through the inspectors' hands at all.


Mr. SPROULE.: It seemed to me while listening to the names being read that at some post offices there was a larger number who got additions to their salaries than at others. Is there any basis or principle upon which it is done!


William Mulock: The maximum salaries as provided by law are not excessive or unreasonable, and the practice of.the department is to consider every person entitled as time goes on to bis ordinary annual increase if bis services have been satisfactory, and that is the rule that is applicable throughout. There may toe some instances where persons, as in the case of St. John, do not receive the increase because they do not deserve it. As to there being more increases in one office than in another the explanation of that is that there are more clerks in one office than in another. Take Toronto for instance; my bon. friend representing Toronto will be pleased to know that the growth of business has been something very great there. The revenue exceeds a million dollars a year now. I have forgotten what it was a few years ago but you cannot have an extra $50,000 of revenue without having to correspondingly increase the staff. There is a constant growth and our staff is increasing almost every day in consequence of the increased business. Toronto has a staff of many hundreds now. The revenue in Toronto is by far the greatest of any post offi(^ in Canada. .


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is one of the offices that I was impressed with comparing Toronto with Montreal. It appeared to me, while listening to the list being read out that there was a larger number of employees in Montreal who had received increases than in Toronto, and I was anxious to know upon what principle or basis these increases were made. We had in addition to the information given to us that increases were granted in Winnipeg and1 Vancouver because of the increased cost of living which it was said was much greater there than in the east. Of course, that would not apply to Toronto or Montreal.! There surely must be some basis established for increases in all these post offices -Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver.


William Mulock: They are all treated in the same way. I think on the surface my hon. friend must have something to justify his Inquiry but I think I can explain it to his satisfaction. Whilst there has been a great increase in the re-' venue of the Montreal office and also of the Toronto office there has been a greater increase in the Toronto office and that has involved greater additions to the staff. If a member of the staff has reached the maximum, that ends him. The more new men who are appointed the more increases there will be. because there will be more men below the maximum, and that will explain! why there are more men below the maximum in Toronto than in Montreal-


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in understanding that each clerk, say a first-class
clerk, who has not reached the maximum gets a certain percentage of increase according to the number of years he has served,-and that the same rule applies to the second, third and fourth-class clerks as well?


William Mulock: Yes, they are all treated in the same way. Every man's case is gone into individually. If he has not reached the maximum he will be given an increase if his services are satisfactory. That principle has been applied throughout the whole service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If they are not satisfactory they are not increased?


William Mulock: There are increases that the law allows- Under the Civil Service Act there is a maximum salary assigned to every office and the Civil Service Act provides for a sum that may be paid by way of increase. Parliament votes the money and the increase is then awarded if the case is a meritorious one.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Under the Civil Service Act there is a statutory increase of $50 per year, but that would not be the same to the different grades in the post office.


William Mulock: Well, yes, some would get $50 and some are entitled to $30.


Mr. FOWLER.: Does this work automatically? Do they get their increases as a matter of course?


William Mulock: No.


George William Fowler: Only if they are recommended?


William Mulock: That is all. Is my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) interested iu the St. John post office?


George William Fowler: Only generally.


Mr. CROCKET.: Mr. Chairman, before this item passes I would like to call the attention of the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) to the fact that the Fredericton post office is not adequately equipped or sufficiently staffed for the business that is done in the office. I find by the Auditor General's Report that for the fiscal year ended June 30, T904, the revenue amounted to $14,054.93 and that the staff of the office was composed of a postmaster, three second-class clerks, and two fourth-class clerks, five assistants in all. In 1895 the revenue of the Fredericton post office amounted to $11,638.74 so that there has been an increase in the business of the office amounting to nearly $2,500, whereas the staff, I believe, is the same to-day as it was ten years ago. I have examined the record in referenece to the Charlottetown post office for the purpose of making a comparison, and I find that for the year ending June 30, 1904, the revenue of the Charlottetown post office amounted to $19,193.57,

while the staff of that office was composed of a postmaster, one assistant postmaster, four second class, five third class, and one fourth class clerk and one stamper and sorter. The postmaster in Charlottetown had twelve assistants where the business done amounted to $19,193.57. Fredericton, then with three quarters of the business of Charlottetown has less than one half the staff.
I think that these facts show pretty conclusively that the Fredericton office is not sufficiently staffed. There have been many complaints among the business and professional classes of Fredericton, and among all citizens who have occasion to go to the post office frequently of the slowness with which the mails are distributed. Fredericton, as all know, is an important city. It is the capital of New Brunswick, the seat of the legislature, the seat of the courts, the military centre of the province, aud the seat also of the provincial university, the provincial normal school and several other important provincial institutions. A large volume of business is done there, and the citizens generally feel that they are entitled to a more expeditious distribution of mails than they are receiving under the present service. I trust the minister will take this matter into his consideration, and if possible provide that office with at least two or three additional clerks, as I think the records clearly show it is entitled to.


William Mulock: Mr. Chairman, I would explain to my hon. friend (Mr. Crocket) that in the case of Charlottetown the post office officials also discharge the duties which ordinarily devolve on the office of inspector. There is no inspector's office in Prince Edward Island, and the postmaster, and such of his staff as he may draw on, act also as inspectors. We have a separate inspector's establishment for New Brunswick. It may be, however, that the public interest would be advanced by the addition of a junior clerk, and I will have that inquired into again.


Oswald Smith Crocket: I observe in the statement for the city of Charlottetown that one official is designated as being also assistant post office inspector.


William Mulock: Yes.


Oswald Smith Crocket: I did not observe that any of the other clerks had any duties to perform in reference to the inspection.


William Mulock: I should have added that the post office officials in Charlottetown also do the work performed by the superintendent of the railway mail service in other places. For instance, in New Brunswick you have a superintendent of railway mail services, but we have none for Prince Edward Island, this work devolving upon the postmaster and such of his staff as he may require, and I have already explained the case of the inspectors.


Oswald Smith Crocket: 


George Eulas Foster: At the same time I think, having some knowledge of that city myself, as I represented it for four years

aud this matter was. a subject of complaint even at that time-that if the minister will look into it, he will see that the people are not giv-eii as complete and quick service as they ought to get. There is a great deal of waiting and delay in the delivery of the mail, and the general impression there is that this occurs because there is not a sufficiently large staff to have the work done quickly as well as efficiently. It is a well manageid office at the present time, and the clerks are efficient clerks, but I think that the minister will probably find that he will consult the convenience of the people and greatly help matters by the addition of at least one more clerk to the staff.


William Mulock: I shall carefully inquire into it.


George Eulas Foster: There are, of course, all these other things to whigh my hon. friend (Mr. Crocket) has referred, which entail a great deal of work.


William Mulock: The same thing apples to Prince Edward Island.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, there is a local legislature there and also university educational establishments. However, I think the facts of the case, as set forth by my friend from York (Mr. Crocket), merit some inquiry from the minister.


Oswald Smith Crocket: I do not wish to be understood as in any way reflecting on the staff of the Fredericton post office. It is recognized throughout that city that the staff is painstaking, faithful and efficient from the head down; the complaint is that the staff is not sufficiently large.


William Mulock: I shall have the officer whose duty it is to look into these matters give his best consideration to the case of Fredericton.


George Eulas Foster: I understand, with reference to the provisional allowance, that this $4,000 extra is not to increase the amount of allowance given to the clerks who have already received the allowance, but is for new services.


William Mulock: Yes, it is to meet the additions to the staff.


George Eulas Foster: There was an item of 52 new appointments that the minister is to explain.


William Mulock: Yes, there is an item of 52 additional appointments with salaries amounting to $29,197.50, as follows :
Charlottetown post office, one stamper and sorter.
Halifax post office, one letter-carrier.
St. John city post office, one fourth-class clerk.
Sherbrooke post office, one porter.

Montreal post office, three fourth-class clerks, one stamper and sorter, fifteen letter-carriers, three porters.
Toronto post office, five letter-carriers, nine porters.
London post office, three letter-carriers.
Hamilton post office, one letter-carrier, one porter.
Winnipeg post office, one junior third-class clerk, one letter-carrier, one porter.
Vancouver post office, three letter-carriers.
Victoria post office, one letter-carrier.
That makes up the list.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I presume that later on we will have supplementary estimates in which these officers are interested, and that we can discuss these matters then, because some of our friends who are absent desire to speak on them.


William Mulock: That is quite right, there will be opportunities. I said that in that $125,000 there was an item of $80,210.75, a short estimate. I have given the details of everything except this. My statement in reference to it is as follows :
The minimum salary of the senior second-class having been fixed at $1,000, and the minimum salary of the junior third-class at $700 by the amendment to the Post Office Act of 1903, the salaries of seven senior second-class clerks were raised to $1,000 each and the salaries of forty-one junior third-class clerks to $700 each, making a total increase of $2,360.
One hundred and thirty-nine increases of salaries not specially provided for in the estimates for 1904-5, $12,416.50.
The undermentioned employees having-been promoted to higher classes, their salaries were raised in consequence :
J. O. Carrier, Quebec post office, senior third at $800 to junior
second at $900	$100	00
G. W. Wills, Ottawa post office, senior third at $800 to junior
second at $900	
100	00C. F. Cole, Windsor post office, stamper and sorter at $360 to fourth-alass at $400	
40	00

One hundred and forty-nine letter-carriers, messengers and porters have been brought under the provisions of the amendment of 1902 to the Post Office Act. involving an increase of $15,620.50. I will explain why this was not estimated before. Under the new Act they had the option within a certain period to come under its provisions. They have come in by degrees. As they come in they become entitled to additional pay. A letter-carrier now appointed is appointed under the grade system, at a per diem rate of pay. At $2.25 per day it amounts to about $700 a year, in addition to which he is entitled to a bonus of $20 for good conduct. So that he can now get $725 a year instead of the old maximum of
$600. We do not force the new system upon them, but one by one they have been coming in under it.


Mr.   POSTER@: What advantage do they lose ?


William Mulock: I think it is entirely for their benefit.


George Eulas Foster: Did they have superannuation under the old system ?


William Mulock: Yes, and they have the same under the new. The Act declares that their coming in under the new system shall not affect them prejudieiously with respect to their superannuation. Some of them were nervous about it for a while and hung back; but a great many have now come in.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What percentage of them have availed themselves of the Act since last year ?


William Mulock: Of those appointed prior to July 1, 1896, 49 accepted in 1902, 60 in 1903, and 108 in 1904. Of those appointed since July 1, 1896, 144 accepted in 1902, 11 in 1903 and 12 in 1904. According to this statement, there are now 384 under the new Act. That leaves out about 142. They are timid about it, having an idea that if they were sick they would not receive pay and might be in some way prejudiced. The idea of the amendment was to put pressure upon them to prevent them being unnecessarily sick. When men are paid by the year, we find that they art' occasionally absent from duty, when, if they had a fear of loss of pay, they would discharge their duty. With regard to letter-carriers, it is extremely inconvenient to the public if they do not report for duty.


George Eulas Foster: How many grace days has a letter-carrier ?


William Mulock: They are allowed two weeks' holidays, and they have a sort of half holiday on the ordinary statutory and other holidays enjoyed by the people.


George Eulas Foster: The per diem is simply for working days, including holidays ?


William Mulock: Yes. They are paid for all holidays.


George Eulas Foster: Suppose one does not turn up for duty, what is the process to find out what is the matter with him ?


William Mulock: When a mail does not turn up, it is the duty of tin officer of the post office to at once seek the cause of his absence, and to make a report to the ! postmaster and ultimately to the deputy. Every case of absence is specially inquired into, not just dealt with in an automatic way, and the true merits ascertained. Under this system a letter-carrier can make

$125 a year more than he could under the old system, and for that increase we reserve the right to deduct his pay when he does not appear for duty.


George Eulas Foster: But if he is really ill ?


William Mulock: We do not encourage absences at all.


George Eulas Foster: If he Is really ill, is his pay docked ?


William Mulock: There is no provision for payment in the case of absences from casual illnesses. I would not say anything to lessen the influence of the department on the staff to see that they are in attendance. There is one case on record, a very sad case, of a man being paid though absent; but I think that should be the exception.
Mr. FOSTER, It has also this point to it: it makes the government a pretty hard employer. An employer of labour in a factory or a store, if he has deserving employees and they are laid up for a few days by real sickness, will commonly pay them. It seems that, if it is real illness, there should be at least a minimum limit for which deserving employees should have the pay granted to them.


William Mulock: My hon. friend did not quite catch the point. I explained that we have a provision for paying the men a bonus of $20 a year; so that if a man had a few days illness, that bonus would cover eight days at $2.25, or ten days, at $2. All who give good and faithful service during the year get the bonus.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought you expected good conduct from every employee who was earning his salary. What other kind of conduct do you expect ?


William Mulock: Every man is supposed to render reasonably good service, and if he does he gets the bonus. No two men discharge their duties precisely alike ; but when a man is reported as having rendered satisfactory service, he gets the bonus of $20.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He is reported on by some superior oflicer ?


William Mulock: Yes, there is a superintendent of letter-carriers attached to every post office except perhaps some small ones. The superintendent keeps a check on the letter-carriers. They are all, I think, very well satisfied with the arrangement, and I think are giving very excellent service. We hold the postmaster responsible for the efficiency of the office. He in turn looks to his subordinate officers to do their duty, and will call upon the superintendent of the letter-carriers to see that they do their duty. The superintendent reports to the postmaster, who in due time makes his recommendations to us. There Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
is every disposition to encourage faithful service and the men are treated very well.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not saying that they are not, but wish to know if they ore all dealt with exactly on the same principle, or is it in the power of some one to favour some and overlook others ?	*


William Mulock: There could not be a man overlooked. The superintendent is there every day and knows every one of these men. He is anxious to have them do their duty and he would demoralize the service if he were to introduce favouritism. A letter-carrier must be faithful and punctual in attendance, prompt in his work and tidy. These are conditions the superintendent will bear in mind, and he is most anxious to encourage them. I think there is an excellent feeling amongst all the officers. I have never heard of any friction and would be very much disappointed if I thought any superintendent was guilty of any injustice to any one.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have not heard of any, but simply asked for information.


George Eulas Foster: What superannuations has the minister made last year ?


William Mulock: I am not in a position to give that information.
ilr. FOSTER. I see by the returns that one O'Neil, in Montreal, was superannuated at thirty-three years of age and a gratuity of $506 paid him.


William Mulock: He had consumption and has since died. He was not superannuated in the ordinary sense. Under the Act, if a man has not been ten years in the service, he cannot get superannuation but a gratuity.


George Eulas Foster: That would be the case here, because he had been only flf years in the service;
Mail service by railways	$1,468,800 00
Mail service by steamboats .. .87,900 00 Mail service by ordinary land conveyance	 975,000 00
Supply and repair of mail bags, &c.	30,000 00
2,561,700 00


William Mulock: I will explain the practice which has been followed of late years. You will observe that there is no increase either in the mail service or miscellaneous expenditure, but it does not follow that there will not be an increase asked for. Our service is expanding very rapidly and I would prefer waiting until the last moment before asking for any increase. In a couple of months we will be three-quarters through our fisca'l year, aud my officers will be iu a better position to tell me what increases will be required than they were last December when these i estimates were prepared. I prefer to ask

for all tlie increases later on than ask for whether the mail matter carried is much or them piecemeal.	little.


George Eulas Foster: That is a reasonable position provided the minister does not wait until tlie dying hours of the session, as is so often done, to ask for increases. My hon. friend has frequently sinned in that respect as well as his illustrious colleagues. If the items are brought down in sufficiently good time to enable the House to criticise and discuss them, that will be perfectly satisfactory. Is there any system upon which our carriers by water are paid ? Are they paid according to weight or is it just a rule of thumb arrangement, each carrier getting as much as he can for the service he does ?


William Mulock: We have a maximum allowance of 5 cents a mile for steamers. Where the volume is very small the rate is lower.


George Eulas Foster: Have you no system of paying by weignt ?


William Mulock: No, there has never been such a system.
Mr. SI'ROULE. Is it five cents for any quantity of mail, or for any specific quantity ? '


William Mulock: The volume of mail matter which goes by steamer is not very great. A steamer will have to handle a bag or two or three and really the trouble is bringing the bags to the dock and putting them on board and receiving them and taking care of them during the voyage.


George Eulas Foster: I see that the Newfoundland service, between North Sydney and Port Aux Basques seems to be upon a weight basis. Mr. Reid is paid at 50 cents per pound for letters and 5 cents per pound for papers.


William Mulock: I am informed that that is an arrangement that has been in force for about twenty years. Newfoundland pays it one way and we pay it the other. At one time it was paid through some other department, and it has been transferred to the Post Office Department.


George Eulas Foster: Is that the only case in which the payment goes by weight?


William Mulock: I believe so.


George Eulas Foster: Of course, this does not include the steamship subsidies?


William Mulock: I do not know whether the steamship gets a subsidy or not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood, when the Minister of Trade and Commerce explained the steamship subsidies that they had some relation to the number of 'pounds carried. But now the Postmaster General, as I understand him, says it makes no difference


William Mulock: The amount of mail matter carried varies with the occasion. Take, for instance, the ordinary man-carrier, one day he may start with a bag almost empty, and next day, through the publication of a weekly paper or something of that kind, the bag may be pretty heavy.


George Eulas Foster: Are tenders called for in the case of these steamships?


William Mulock: No. I do not recall a case where there is any competition.
Mr. FOSTER, But where there are competing lines on the same route, are tenders called for and contracts made?


William Mulock: Yes. But cases of competition are so rare that I thought for the moment there were none.
I am informed that there is one, from Vancouver up the north shore.


George Eulas Foster: And between Kingston and Cape Vincent there ought to be 'competition.


William Mulock: I think there is no competition. The contract is held by the Folgers. I think it is a continuance by renewal of a contract that has been in force for many years. I remember looking into it when it expired and trying to find a way by which we could better ourselves, but decided to renew it.


George Eulas Foster: Has there been any change in the basis upon which the railways are paid? Some ten years ago, or more, I think, there was a readjustment. Has any change been made since then?


William Mulock: There has been no change.


George Eulas Foster: And the mileage allowances of that time have been extended to the new branches of the railways?


William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: On the same basis?


William Mulock: In some cases where the line is into a new country where, population is very sparse, we pay a smaller rate, which is increased as the volume grows. The controller keeps track of them.


George Eulas Foster: Can the minister tell us whether he is carrying parcels, pamphlets and that kind of matter at a rate that pays for the service rendered. It must be a large part of the mail carriage at the present time and constantly increasing. There was a period, I think, when the country was paying a good deal more for this class of matter than it received. The country has a right to get at least the cost of carriage upon that class of matter.


William Mulock: I am afraid I could not give an opinion that would be of any value on the question whether or not we lose money in the parcel post branch. But, taking parcel post and newspaper post together, I am assured it is a great loss/
IMr. FOSTER. Postage is imposed on newspapers is it not?


William Mulock: A very small one.


George Eulas Foster: On the zone system?


William Mulock: Within a radius of forty miles from the place of publication newspapers pass free from the office of publication. This is the same as it was before. Beyond the radius of forty miles, and within a radius of 300 miles the rate is i cent per pound, and beyond that i cent per pound.


George Eulas Foster: These are the rates fixed at the time the hon. gentleman (Sir William Mulocli) made the change ?


William Mulock: There has been a slight change since then.


George Eulas Foster: In the way of lowering or increasing?


William Mulock: Lowering.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the practice with regard to mail carrying- contracts. Some years ago, a good many contracts were cancelled because they had been renewed without public tender. Are all contracts on expiration thrown open to the tender ? Or are they renewed, and if so on what basis ? Are any contracts renewed at higher figures than when they were tendered for in open competition ?


William Mulock: The Post Office Act provides that ail contracts involving an expenditure of $200 or over must be let by tender. That, of course, has been done. When these contracts have matured we have made it our business to ascertain whether or not the service had been satisfactory and whether it would be in the public interest to renew or to call for tenders. I do not think it expedient to be always changing mail carriers if the one holding the contract has given satisfactory service. When a contract which was let at open competition expires, the inspector makes a report stating whether good service has been performed or not. If the service has been good, the contractor is given the opportunity of renewing. If the service involves an expenditure of less than $200 a year, the law gives the Postmaster General power to make a contract without tender. But that is a power I have not exercised unless the expenditure was very trifling, and the circumstances justified it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that the Postmaster General has drifted into a system


Mr.   POSTER@: that was in vogue before he took charge of i that department, and which he condemned - unsparingly on many occasions, that was the lenewal of contracts to mail carriers where the amount was $200 or less and where it had originally been let by public tender. I know that many of these contracts in our part of the country were cancelled, where they had been let exactly upon those principles, and it was stated to this House that there was a great saving to the country in consequence, and of course the previous government were condemned for carrying out a system which was not the most economical. Now it seems that experience has proven the wisdom of what the hon. gentleman's predecessors did, he is now adopting the same principle that was in vogue before he came into power. In some instances I am told that these contracts are renewed and a larger price given. I am not complaining of that, because I think that on the whole mail contractors are doing the work at prices too low. I do not know of any specific cases where there is a great grievance ; but 1 have been told that in some instances where this work was let by contract originally, at the expiration of the time when others were contemplating doing it at a lower figure, they' did not have an opportunity of tendering because the contract was renewed at the original figure. They think now they have as good grounds of complaint as others had before who were under the same system denied the right of tendering by a renewal of the contract.


William Mulock: I do not know that it is necessary to revive the discussion on that point which we have had many times. But perhaps my hon. friend would permit me to explain to him the point I used to take. The objection I took to the contracts was that they had not been let by tender where the law required them to be let by tender, and therefore they had to be cancelled and relet by tender.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I drew the attention of the minister to cases in my personal knowledge where they have been let by tender and cancelled.


William Mulock: My hon. friend will agree that where a contract is let by tender and it might be well in tile public interest to renew it, it might not be wise to renew it under the same conditions. In a market wrhere the price of labour goes down there might be such a change in the conditions as would make it proper to renew that contract without tender. But where the reverse is the case, as it is to-day, where the price of labour is going up, there is nothing to be gained by inviting tenders to perform r. service that was let by public tender four or five years ago. I am desirous of renewing now, where we can on that basis, any contract made a few years ago,

and where it is in the public interest. I do not think my hon. friend can cite to me one single case since I have been Postmaster General, where I have renewed a contract involving an expenditure exceeding $200 a year, and allowed a larger sum. I have no power in law to do it, and 1 am quite satisfied that I have not done so. There are cases where I have had to increase the price where a contract involved a smaller sum than $200, where the contract has expired, and the contractor would not renew it. Then it is wiser to get somebody else to take it, if you can, for ten or twenty dollars more. There are some cases of that kind, but that power is given to me by law, X have power to make these contracts under those circumstances ; but I have no power by law to renew a contract involving $200 a year or more, a year at a higher price, and I do not think I have ever violated the law in that respect.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have been told of cases where the contracts were entered into at a higher figure. I do not complain of that, because I do not think they were paid too much. But I rose more especially to say that I do not think there was that fluctuation in wages from year to year previous to 1896, which would justify the adoption of the principle that is carried out now, any more than it justified the same principle then, because wages are about the same today.


William Mulock: A good deal higher to-day.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Well, the contracts for carrying the mails, so far as I know, are about the same as they were eight or ten years ago.


William Mulock: It costs more to keep a horse to-day.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I understand that the amount of subsidy given to the Star line amounts to $1,510 a year, for thirty-two weeks; they do not run in the winter-time. Out of that $1,510 they have to pay, or did have to pay a year or two ago, $550 to employees for the delivery of mails at the St. John office and getting mails from that office. The same way at all the stopping places such as Maugerville, Gagetown and other places on the River St. John, also at Fredericton. That leaves them only $950 for the service, which is at the rate of eleven and a quarter cents a mail bag. They consider that the amount is entirely too small. In addition, they have to give bonds of $3,000 a year; and they carry between 8,000 and 9,000 bags a year. They also state that the amounts which they have to pay for obtaining delivery of these mails are increasing year by year and they think that the amount of the remuneration which they receive for carrying these mails is not sufficient and that it should be increased. 1 would be very glad if the hon. Postmaster General would leave that item over so that vre can see a little more about it and bring the facts a little more to his personal attention. I have just now met a gentleman who is interested in this very service and I know he expects to call upon the hon. Postmaster General to-morrow and 1 would be glad if the items were allowed to stand over for to-day.


William Mulock: I may explain to my hon. friend that we do not take a vote for each separate service. We have thousands and thousands of services and there is a bulk sum taken. My hon. friend will have an opportunity later on to discuss this matter upon the supplementary estimates.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Very well.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It may, but I find contracts were taken when they were made without public tender, and were taken at about the same figure as seen years ago.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Do these items include the subsidies given for carrying the mails on the River St. John?


William Mulock: All those expenses are included here.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Will the minister state the amount paid as subsidy to the Star line of steamers carrying the mails on the St. John river ?


William Mulock: The Star line for many years, long before we took office, carried the mails under an arrangement which has been continued since. But of late years there has been some additional post offices established along the route, wnich involve some more trouble and expense to the steamers, and some allowance has been made for that.


Mr. AMES.: I would like to ask the hon. Postmaster General whether any complaints have reached him as yet in reference to the unsanitary condition of the branch post office on St. Catherine street in the city of Montreal, whether it is his intention to renew the lease for the post office without requiring the premises to be put in a proper sanitary condition, and whether the Health Department in Montreal has not on several occasions found fault with the condition in which the premises are kept and no notice has been taken of its complaints.


William Mulock: We have no information upon that subject. I think my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) is perhaps misinformed.


Herbert Brown Ames: I can lay the originals of the Health Department's reports before the House if necessary. I should like also to ask the hon. Postmaster General whether any report was made to him on or about November 1 in respect to the illegal stamp-

ing of letters by an employee of the department in the main post office in the city of Montreal ?


William Mulock: My officer does not know the facts in that case. He says that there has been something of that nature the subject of an inquiry, but if my hon. friend desires information upon that point I will get it for him.


Herbert Brown Ames: I would be very glad to have It. I would also like to ask the hon. Postmaster General whether it has been brought to his attention of late that a number of remittances of interest made by the city of Montreal to some of its bondholders have disappeared, presumably in. the mails of the city of Montreal, and whether any investigation has taken place to ascertain whether these cheques have been stolen, endorsed and paid through the negligence or culpability of any of tbe officials of the department ?


William Mulock: No, we have no information upon that point. Were these letters registered ?


Herbert Brown Ames: I cannot say as to that, but I can lay the facts before the House.


William Mulock: Can my hon. friend say whether the letters were registered ?


Herbert Brown Ames: I do not think the letters Were registered, but there were letters sent out by the city treasurer containing cheques for interest due to certain parties, which cheques disappeared and which were forged and collected to the detriment and loss of the parties for whom they were intended.


William Mulock: Can my hon. friend say whether the matter was brought to the attention of the postmaster of Montreal ?


Herbert Brown Ames: It was by the public prints. I can lay a statement before the House if desirable.


William Mulock: It is generally the case, if there is any possible chance of a grievance, that it is brought formally before the officials. They may have taken steps in this case, and if so I have no doubt it will be fully investigated. Of course, the parties would not suffer by reason of the forging of the endorsement.
number of new offices opened during the year ?
-Sir WILLIAM MULOCK. That is in the annual report.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. Postmaster General might turn up at the same time the number of miles of mail service added during the year.


William Mulock: There was an addition of 317,468 miles of stage routes during the year. If the hon. gentleman desires to know the number of miles additional carried, it will be necessary to go through the service and multiply that mileage by the frequency of the service. There were 919 and 96-100 of a mile additional railway mail service in force during the past year. We are now carrying the mails IS,366 track miles a year and 16,129,121 stage route miles per year. The total number of post offices in existence on June 30 last was 10,460, but I do not find a statement in the report showing the increase during the year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was led to make the Inquiry from the fact that the same amount is asked for the mail service for the coming year as was voted last year. It would appear to be very easy, if we added 317,468 miles of mail service, to determine approximately how much more money would be needed. It would seem from the estimates here as though the country is not expanding at all or that the service is not growing. It is true that the hon. minister says that later in the year be will be better able to make an estimate of just about how much will be needed in tlie year, but you would think even at the beginning of the year, in view of the number of new offices that have been opened up and tbe number of additional miles of mail service, that one could make an approximate estimate of the additional amount of money that would be required for the coming year.


William Mulock: We are adding new post offices and mail services every day especially in the Northwest Territories.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That 378,000 miles is some proportion of what we had last year. Would it not seem natural to assume that there would be that proportion and that it would increase by that amount.


Herbert Brown Ames: The reason I bring these matters up is for the purpose of ascertaining whether the hon. Postmaster General is fit present satisfied with the working of tlie Montreal post office and all its particulars.


William Mulock: There has been a recent change in the postmastership.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can the hon. Postmaster General give any information as to the Ml-. AMES.


William Mulock: When the supplementary estimates are brought down we will have a great deal of data giving the actual conditions up to that time. People are flocking into the Territories and wherever there is a little coterie of settlers we try to establish services whether they pay or do not pay. People are spreading all over the Territories ; they are going everywhere and we are adding servics every day of the year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It does not appear to be on a very intelligent business basis if you have no idea of the proportion. There must be some proportion from year to year.


William Mulock: If the hon. gentleman can tell me how many immigrants are going into Manitoba from now until next year and where they are going to settle, then perhaps I can tell him definitely. In answer to the hon. gentleman's inquiry as to the increase in the number of post offices I find that 310 were added during the last fiscal year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There are now 10,460 post offices and 310 must be some proportion of the whole number, must it not ? There were so many miles of mail routes ; this year we have added so many more, and that must be some proportion of the whole number. Now would it not be natural to estimate, if you are judging from a business standpoint, what would be the additional amount required for the coming year, and then to provide for that proportion of in-' crease? We are only estimating one year ahead, but you are giving exactly the same estimate as that of last year. That does not seem to be the most intelligent business judgment that could be exercised.


William Mulock: It must be remembered that these estimates are prepared not to-day, 'but as long ago as December, on data covering the period up to the end of November. I want to give the House the latest possible information, and when the supplementaries are brought in we will know the state of affairs up to that date, as the new services are posted up in the department from day to day. Is it not better to have definite information up to March 1, than up to last November ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.
(Sir WILLIAM MULOCK. That is the object of it and I think my hon. friend (Mi'j Sproule) on reflection will see that we are taking the better course. ,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I can hardly agree with that. Whatever information was in the possession of the department up to November or December must be as reliable, in estimating the future, as the information up to March 1 would be; one is a proportion of the year just as the other is. Any one coming into this country picking up the estimates and seeing that the Postmaster General is asking the same amount for the coming year as he did for the last year would naturally reach the conclusion that the country is not expanding very fast, but we know that it is expanding very fast.


George Eulas Foster: My friend is right. I think that on general principles the main estimate ought, wherever it is possible, to be the main estimate and that the supplementary estimate should be made as small
as possible. I wish to ask the minister from what railways we are now getting free mail service and to what extent. It strikes me that some of our subsidies were given some time ago with an obligation compelling the railway taking the subsidy to carry the mails of the Dominion free. Are we getting any return in that way at the present time?


William Mulock: The department is getting no mails carried free. I think the condition attached to these subsidies is that in the case of a railway receiving a subsidy it must perform services to the government to the extent of three per cent of the subsidy before it would be entitled to payment for services.


George Eulas Foster: For mail services?


William Mulock: For services of any kind, for carrying police or supplies or mails, it would have to earn three per cent on the subsidy before it could get any cash.


George Eulas Foster: To what extent is the Post Office Department benefited by that ?


William Mulock: I think we pay the Receiver General as if the Receiver General was the railway. When we put the mails on a new line of railway that is in that position, instead of paying what the railway earns to the railway we pay it over to the Receiver General.


George Eulas Foster: What payments are made by the Post Office Department, and in respect of what roads ? What I want to get at is whether we have got any actual advantage in that respect ?


William Mulock: I suppose the Receiver General could get us up a statement on that point. We simply pay our money over to him. These roads are only in their infancy as yet.


George Eulas Foster: Was not the Canadian Northern which runs to Winnipeg subsidized under that condition ? That has been running for two years.


William Mulock: I think it first ran one train a week, then two and then
three trains a week. It is now, I believe, running a train daily.


George Eulas Foster: Would the minister inquire in his department and find out to what extent the post office or the country has benefited in that way ?


William Mulock: The post office, I explained, has not benefited in the slightest.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend knows what I mean. H3e knows (that certain railways were bonused under certain conditions, one of these being that they were to do a certain amount of public carrying for the country. What I want to get at is

to what extent the Post Office Department has participated in that. Thejcountry has got the benefit of it if these roads under these conditions have been carrying the mails.


William Mulock: As I explained to the hon. gentleman, if it is a question between the department and the railways the department has to pay the Receiver General for the service. The railway company has not received money from the government, because it is not entitled to payment of its claim until it has earned three per cent.


Mr.   POSTER@: Very well, I will put my question in another way. Will the minister give us the information as to how much his department has paid the Receiver General in respect of the services rendered to his department by such roads as were bonused under the .condition that they should do a certain amount of carrying for the country ?


William Mulock: I will get that information.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There has been a good deal of talking for some years past as to whether it would not be wise to put the telegraph and telephone systems of the country under the Post Office Department, and the hon. minister informed us last year that that question was engaging his attention. I would like to inquire if he has reached any conclusion regarding it, or has he been able to collect sufficient data. to enable him to judge whether it would be a proper thing to do or not ?


William Mulock: That is a very interesting and large question. I am afraid I am not able to supplement what I stated last session. It is now 6 o'clock, and I do not think it is desired to meet to-night. If it is not, perhaps my hon. friend will allow the discussion to terminate now. I move that the Committee rise and report progress.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would like to ask the hon. Postmaster General to bring down, for the next meeting of the Committee, the report aliuded to by my hon. friend from St. Antoine, Montreal, in regard to the illegal stamping of letters which took jilace during the last election campaign.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 6 p.m.

Thursday, January 26, 1905.