1905-02-14

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 56) respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway.-Mr. Bole.
Bill (No. 57) to incorporate La Compagnie Electrique. de Trois Rivieres, St. Maurice, Maskinonge et Champlain.-Mr. Bureau-* by Mr. Talbot.
Bill (No. 58) respecting the Canadian Northern Railway.-Mr. Lamont-by Mr. Parmalee.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. VICTOR GEOFFRION moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 59) respecting the jurisdiction of the Exchequer Court as to railway debts. He said : This Bill is for the purpose of correcting an apparent oversight in the Act which it proposes to amend. In the province of Quebec all sales made by judicial authority, under the Winding Up Act, in insolvency proceedings, have the effect of clearing the movable property sold of all incumbrances, privileges, hypotheques and mortgages, so as to give to the purchaser a clear title to the property. It is obvious that a sale under this Act ordered by the Exchequer Court should have the same effect as when ordered by the judge of a superior court, it should have the same effect as in a sale made by a sheriff. Of course, we should give the same authority to the Exchequer Court, because otherwise the law would be unworkable. A difficulty of this kind arose in the case of the South Shore Railway, which was offered for sale under this Act by the Exchequer Court, but nobody would buy it because the Exchequer Court could not give a clear title. It is clear that a hypothecary creditor would not suffer any more prejudice in a sale made by order of the Exchequer Court than in an ordinary sale by a sheriff, because we can rely upon the judge to see that the sale is properly advertised ; and, of course, the creditor could protect himself in bidding at the sale to see that the property was sold at its full value. If it is sold at its full value, no one can suffer any prejudice. This, briefly, is the purpose of the Bill.
Mr. MONK.: I would ask my hon. friend if the Bill provides for notices to be given, as in the case of a judicial sale ?


Mr. GEOFFRION.: Yes ; it is left to the judge of the Exchequer Court to' give a proper notice of the sale. I have no objection to introducing a clause providing that a certain delay should be given, but it was thought that a judge of the Exchequer Court would see that the proper notice was given by advertisement of the sale.


Mr. MACDONELL.: I would ask the hon. gentleman if provision is made in his Bill for pending litigation ? There is now pending before the Privy Council litigation regarding this very matter, from the province of Ontario, in the case of the Central Ontario Railway Company. Is there provision made for pending litigation ?


Victor Geoffrion: No such provision is made in this Bill. It is simply an amending Bill, and will have the effect, in the province of Quebec, when a sale is ordered by the Exchequer Court, of giving a clear title to the purchaser of the property, the same as in the case of a sale made by a sheriff. Otherwise, under the Act as it stands, a sale ordered by the Exchequer Court could not be attended with a clear title to the property. It is almost certain that under the sale ordered by the Exchequer Court a clear title could not be given. That is the opinion of the court, as I understand it; and, as the Act is unworkable, we want to remedy it as far as the province of Quebec is concerned, so that the sale ordered by the court may have the same effect as if it were a sheriff's sale.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Did I understand that the operation of this Bill is confined to the province of Quebec ?


Victor Geoffrion: The Act to be amended applies to the whole Dominion, but we want to have, in the province of Quebec, as far as this sale is concerned, a clear title. I have no objection to extending it to other provinces if it is the will of the House.


Mr. BERGERON.: May I ask the lion. Minister of Justice if he knows anything about the provisions of this measure which has been brought down by the hon. member for Verch&res (Mr. Geoffrion)-and whether it is an encroachment upon provincial rights. This is a single case which might be remedied by reverting to a sheriff's sale in the province of Quebec. The railway for which my hon. friend seems to be asking for the passage of this measure can be sold under the authority of the sheriff without this measure at all.


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: All I know of this Bill is what I have learned from what has fallen from the lips of the hon. gentleman who has introduced it.



YUKON-DELAY IN OPENING BALLOT BOXES.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Carleton).: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to ask the government whether they have any information as to the cause of the somewhat extraordinary conduct of the returning officer in the Yukon. If I understand it he delayed the date at which he should open the ballot boxes and sum up the result of the elections until the 7th February with the result that the member for that constituency will not be gazetted until, I suppose, near the end of March. I do not know what period of time at this season of the year is required for the transmission of the mails. I have been led to look into the condition of the law a little, and while it seems to me perfectly evident that a clear and satisfactory explanation is required from the returning officer of his Mr. MACDONELL
conduct in this regard, it also seems desirable that the condition of the law should be looked into. I think that the returning officer under the law has the right to fix the date. I have examined the provisions of the Yukon Representation Act and of the Dominion Elections Act, and they seem to be identical in that regard. Unless I have overlooked some provision of the law the result seems to be that any returning officer can postpone as long as he sees fit the date at which he shall open the ballot boxes and sum up the results. The iesult in regard to the Yukon seems to indicate that this condition of the law should be amended in some way. Some period should be fixed within which the returning officer shall open the ballot boxes and sum up the results, and some provision should be made giving him the power to adjourn whenever an adjournment might be necessary by reason of his not having received all the ballot boxes. I may have overlooked some provision of the statute which can be brought to my attention by the right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) or the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick), but from a very hasty perusal of the statutes I have arrived at the conclusion which I have just mentioned. However, I rose for the purpose of asking whether any explanation has been obtained from the returning officer because I think the hon. Minister of Justice, somewhat earlier in the session, stated that an inquiry had been made of him by telegram asking him to give the reason. The results are somewhat serious. The gentleman who was elected in that constituency on the 16th December last will not be able to take his seat in this House until the middle or the end of March. As a result of this the "Yukon is disfranchised during a period of about two months when matters will come before the House in which the interests of the Yukon are very much concerned. I would therefore be glad to know from the right hon. Prime Minister whether or not any answer whatever has been made by the returning officer in regard to this subject.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: If there has been any correspondence on this subject it has been carried on no doubt by the Secretary of State. I cannot give any information at this moment to my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden), but if he will renew his question to-morrow probably I will be in a position to give him the information.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to know whether the hon. Minister of Justice agrees with my view of the law in regard to the powers of returning officers, and if so whether or not he thinks it desirable that there should be some amendment to the law.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Mr. Speaker, when this question first came under the consideration of the De-

partment of Justice we looked into the law and the conclusion we came to was abso-' lutely the same as that to which my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden) has come. This is the first time that a difficulty of this sort has occurred since the law has been in force, and it has now been in force for over twenty-five years, but this one case will probably show the necessity of an amendment in the direction my hon. friend has indicated. I have spoken to my hon. colleague the Secretary of State on the subject and we are endeavouring to determine what the policy of the government should be in regard to it. When this question was brought to my notice by the hon. member from Toronto earlier in the session I communicated with the Secretary of State. He has been in communication with the returning officer and perhaps it would be proper to bring down the telegrams exchanged. I would suggest to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister to ask the Secretary of State for these telegrams.



PAYMENT FOR BALLOT BOXES.

Mr. J. B. MORIN (Dorchester).: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to draw the attention cf the government to the complaint of a gentleman about some ballot boxes that he has in the county of Dorchester. He writes as follows :
(Translation.)
Sainte-Claire, February 9, 1905.
J. B. Morin, M.P.,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-Will you kindly interest yourself for me in the proper quarters to obtain an allowance for me for 21 ballot boxes which have been placed in the post office since 1891 by the late Dr. C. A. Lesage, who was the returning officer for Dorchester ? These boxes were new when I received them, and I have taken good care of them. I have never used them, and I would be glad to have them taken away and to be compensated. Will you please look into that matter for me, and tell me what I ought' to do ?
Yours devotedly,



J. E. CAYOUETTE,

[Stage Direction]
Postmaster.
Now you have a right to say what you please about boxes.
Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that some, one in the county of Dorchester has had a claim against the government since 1891. I have never heard that we had a creditor in the county of Dorchester, but I have no doubt the government can pay anything that is owing to him so that if my hon. friend (Mr. Morin) will send me the letter I will see what can be done with it.



CENSUS AND STATISTICS.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, That it is expedient to provide that the Governor in Council may from time to time pay out of the moneys to be provided by parliament for such purposes, such sums as are required for the taking of the census, and for the collection, tabulation and publication of agricultural, commercial, criminal, educational, manufacturing, vital and other statistics ; the remuneration of the necessary officers and clerks and the payment of all expenses incurred in carrying into effect an Act for such purpose.-Mr. Fisher.
Mr. TAYLOR.: Before this resolution passes, might I ask the Minister of Agriculture how the money, some $18,200, which we voted last year for agricultural statistics was expended ? The Auditor General's Report dealing with this expenditure is not yet down and we do not know what was done with that money.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: I could not give my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) a detailed account of it of course. The sum which he refers to was in the estimates for the current fiscal year. A. portion of it has been expended that was voted for general statistics. I speak from memory-I would have to look up the vote of last year to be accurate-but I think the sum mentioned was a part of a vote for general statistics, and the vote for the year-book would be included to make up the sum the hon. gentleman mentions. That which was voted for the year-book was spent in paying for the printing and binding of the year-book. The vote for general statistics was expended in the payment of the clerks who are engaged in statistical work in the Department of Agriculture. I do not remember any other expenditure that has been made under that vote during the current fiscal year ; 1 do not think there is any other expenditure. I do not remember at the moment the figures the hon. gentleman used but I rather take it that it covers the votes I have mentioned. I am just reminded of another vote for what is called criminal statistics, which appears in the estimates for my department, and which is also, I think, included in that .sum of $18,200. I have here a list of the employees and the salaries they have been paid, and I am not aware that there has been any other expenditure.


George Taylor: There was a special vote for the Statistical Year-book at $6,000 ; that had nothing to do with the amount I referred to, which is for general statistics, $18,200. That is apart from the year-book. Was that money spent in gathering statistics ? If so, of what nature were these statistics and was this expenditure outside of the census or was the money used as part of the expenditure in connection with the census ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not know the figures to which my hon. friend alludes, but the figures I have are $3,200 for general statis-

tics and a supplementary vote of $10,000 for general statistics.
-Mr. TAYLOR. If my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) will refer to the estimates now before us, on page 32 he will find the figures I refer to.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Perhaps the second vote I referred to may have been $15,000 instead of $10,000 as I suggested ; that would make the $18,200.


George Taylor: And you are asking the same amount this year. I want to know how that money is expended.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I shall be glad to give the information up to the present time. That vote lias been expended on statistical work, part of it, the usual statistical work always carried on in the department every year and part of it special statistical work, that is work drawn from the compilation of the census, and it has been found that a portion of that latter work has been of sufficient value to be included probably in the final reports or volumes of the census. The consequence is that I might almost say that a portion of it has been devoted to such work as is contemplated in this Bill, that I have now before the House, between the decennial census. It is largely the kind of work, although not all of the kind of work that the Bill contemplates and which I would like to see taken up and continued by the officers of the department between the decennial census years and the work which was necessary after our decennial census year on the compilations of the census of that year. I can give my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) the expenditure which has been made with regard to the individuals employed &c., if he desires it.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: As this is a somewhat important measure, I would like the minister to give us an outline of what the expenditure contemplates in connection with this new office in the immediate future and what work would be performed by the officers of this new department for the first few years ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would say to my hon. friend when discussing this Bill a few days ago in committee, before the financial resolution was before the House, the question was asked of me as to the probable expenditure involved in the proposed legislation. I then said that I thought it would be about $20,000 more per annum, practically immediately, than we are how spending on statistical work in the department. I have since been' going carefully over what I would like to do under this Bill, and I think that the amount which I then indicated is quite sufficient to accomplish all that I contemplate or expect to do for several years to come with the possible exception of some expenditure in connection with printing which I did not take fully into Mr. FISHER.
account when I made that estimate. I do uot know yet that the printing would require more money than the amount I stated, but I want to be entirely frank with the House and do not wish in any way to say anything which I am not quite sure is within "the mark. I therefore thought that I ought now to say that if we are to undertake to publish monthly bulletins or to publish every year a very large amount of statistical information that we gather, in extended form, it might be that the printing bill would be larger than I at first thought.
An extra thousand or two of dollars might therefore be required from year to year for printing. I wanted to give this explanation of the financial side of the ease so that there would not be any suspicion that I was minimizing or misrepresenting it.
My hon. friend from Jacques Cartier has asked me to give an outline of what is proposed. We have had under the law a general census every ten years, and a census of Manitoba taken in the mid-year between the regular decennial censuses. In 1885 or 1886 we had a census of the Northwest Territories taken on the same basis as the census of Manitoba; but since that time there has been no special census taken of the Northwest Territories. Under this Act I propose to continue to take every ten years a census of the whole Dominion of Canada, and to take in the mid-year between the regular census years, a census of Manitoba, and, if this parliament at the present session should create two new provinces in the Northwest Territories, or any provinces, to take a census of them in the same way that the census of Manitoba is taken. The Manitoba census is taken by virtue of a provision in the Subsidy Act. Nobody can say to-day what may be decided in regard to a new province or new provinces in the Northwest Territories. But whatever is decided in regard to subsidies for those new provinces, I think it is well that this Act should provide for the censuses to be taken in the province of Manitoba and in the new provinces to be formed in the Territories. The figures which I have given do not include any expenditure which may be necessary in connection with those censuses. Those figures indicate what I expect the annual expenditure to be, in addition to which special provision will have to be made for the taking of the decennial census and for the taking of the census of Manitoba and the other northwest provinces. As I have said, I believe the value of this work will be very great; and, as the work will grow, it may be that a few years from now the minister will have to come down and ask for a larger vote on this account; but, so far as our expectations or intentions go at the present time, the money I have spoken of will. I think, cover the necessary expenditure for several years to come.


Mr. SPROULE.: I inferred from wliat the hon. minister said at first that there would be a considerable saving in the cost of taking the decennial census. Where will that come in?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That will come in whenever the vote is taken for the decennial census. I hope and believe that the organization of this work regularly and permanently will facilitate and cheapen the taking of the decennial census. The saving will be in the appropriation made by parliament for the decennial census.
Mr. Si'ROl'I.E. I wanted to know by what means you were to make a saving, and how much the saving would be.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It would be difficult to say how much the saving would be. Thu officers appointed permanently would be able to devote a good deal of time and attention, for a year or two before the taking of the decennial census, to preparation for that, work, so that it would not have to be all done within a few mouths, as has hitherto been the ease. It would not reduce the expense of the work of the enumerators or the local commissioners throughout the country, but I think it would reduce the expenditure at the head office. It is proposed by this Act to consolidate the three present laws relating to the statistics-the General Statistics Act, the Criminal Statistics Act and the Census Act. The work will be an expansion and enlargement of work which was contemplated when the General Statistics Act was passed. That is proved by the fact that in this consolidated Act I ask for very little increase of powers. Practically I have to-day the necessary powers for nearly all the work for which I am asking powers to-day. That work is the collection of statistics.
The kind of work to be done I outlined the other day. I would like to do for the Dominion a good deal of what is being done in Ontario through the Bureau of Industries. I would like to give statistics every year of the crops, the live stock, the areas of land under different crops and so on, and establish a system by which bulletins would be issued giving correct information with regard to agriculture, and also probably every year a larger bulletin or pamphlet giving a compilation of the results. In some years we might take up one group of subjects, the next year another and so on, and thus, the course of the whole ten years between the two censuses, publish probably four or five times certain classes of information. At present we have no such information for the Dominion which we have for Ontario and one or two other provinces, and what is obtained in Ontario is not available to the people in other parts of the country. 1 think that that work ought to be done for the Dominion and published as often as can reasonably be expected. I would not un-32
dertake at the outset to issue the whole of the information every year, but I do think it would be advisable immediately to issue some of it every year. Some classes of information we might issue two, three, or four times, between the two decennial censuses, That is as regards agricultural information, but it is equally important to get industrial information. Let me add that in the agricultural information would be included everything that grows upon the soil. Forest areas and the production of wood would be included, but the manufacture of those products into other articles would come under industrial information. As far as the latter information is concerned, we have to-day practically none of an official or authentic character except that contained in each decennial census. It is important, in the development of our industries and national progress, that we should have that kind of information more frequently and thus follow the example set by other countries. I would consider it advisable, at least once and more probably twice or three times between the census years, to take a pretty complete industrial census. I would not have it taken by enumerators or by sending agents to individual factories, but would get the information by correspondence and by sending out schedules to be filled up. This work could be done by the central office at Ottawa without any need for the great staff which we have to employ throughout the country at each decennial census. Nearly all the agricultural information we can get in the same way. To a large extent it. is got in this way in the province of Ontario for the bureau of statistics. I might say that in the year 1902 the United States passed an Act for the establishment of a permanent census office, and the arguments they gave in favour of the scheme are very largely those which apply to this one. The condition of affairs there used to be pretty much what it is to-day here. They had no general census statistics. Some of the states had partial statistics, but there was nothing in the shape of national statistics taken between the censuses. They have, however, established a permanent census office for the purposes I have outlined, and they do the work in the same manner and on the same lines I have indicated. They are this year taking an industrial census of all their manufacturing establishments, without any army of enumerators or agents throughout the country. They are doing it by correspondence. by sending out schedules to be filled up from the central office at Washington. and they are satisfied with the results so far as the work has gone. I would like to see such information got here between the two censuses-probably twice or three times. We shall not take all the Industries in any one year, but might so arrange that a very small staff working every year would be able to get in the ten years an immense mass of new information which would be of



the greatest value to every one engaged in industrial enterprises.


George Taylor: I think the hon. minister should allow this resolution to stand until we get the information I am asking for now. A few days ago I asked this question :
Has the work in connection with the taking of the census for 1901 been completed ?
To that the minister replied :
The work in connection with the taking of the eensus for 1901 has been completed.
I then asked if the services of the staff engaged on this work had been dispensed with, and got this reply :
Yes, in so far as the taking of the census and the compilation are concerned ; but' there are a certain number of the staff still in the service of the government working on tabular statements drawn from the compilation of the census. These are paid out of the general statistics vote.
Then I put a third question : How many are still retained in the service of the government ? And was told that only six persons wei'e so engaged. X asked again :
What has been the total expenditure in connection with the taking of the census of 1901 up to 1st January, 1905 ?
To this the minister replied $1,192,296.19. What I want to know is what is the total cost in connection with the census from start to finish. Last year we raised the vote from $12,000 to $20,000 for the archives. Then we voted for the collection and compilation of criminal statistics, $2,000 ; for the statistical year book, $6,000 ; and for general statistics, $18,200. That vote is asked for again. I want to know what was done with that $18,200. Did a large portion go to pay this census staff that are still retained in completing the census ? If so, how are we to know, ten years hence, what the census of 1901 actually cost us ? I gather from the answers of the minister the other day and to-day that persons are still employed working up the figures from the census, which figures will be published in the last volume. If that is work in connection with the census, surely it should he paid out of the census vote. The census of 1S81 cost less than half a million, and the census of 1891 just about half a million. And, so far, we have paid for the census of 1901 almost a million and a quarter, and still, judging by the minister's answers, money is being paid on account of the census to-day. It is only by questioning the minister in the course of such debates as this that we can gain information. I put a question on the notice paper the other day asking for information which, it seems to me, the minister might easily have given. He has three or four staffs gathering statistics, yet he could not answer these simple questions :


Mr. FISHER.: 1.	How many inspectors or other persons have been appointed or employed to attend to the enforcement of the Fruit Marks Act of 1901 ?
2.	What amount has been paid for the services of said inspectors or other persons up to the 1st of January, 1905 ?
3.	What amount has been paid for travelling and other expenses for said inspectors or other persons up to 1st of January, 1905 ?
These were simple questions and called for only such information as we require for the intelligent consideration of measures that the minister brings before us. He might have asked one of his clerks to turn over the book and, in five minutes, get the information to enable him to answer these questions. But, instead of answering he told me that the information is so voluminous that I must move for a return. I think this is unfair. And now he wants us to pass this resolution. But before it is passed we want certain information. The Auditor General's Report is not down showing what was done with the vote of $18,200, nor does the minister undertake to give that information to the committee. Before we can vote the people's money we ought to know what has been done with other votes.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am willing to give the information the hon. gentleman (Mr. Taylor) asks for. He speaks of the Auditor General's Report not being down ; hut he knows that the expenditure since 1st July last, to which he refers would not be included in that report.


George Taylor: I want to find out what was done with the general statistics vote.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am quite willing to give that information. I have already said that the general statistics vote was applied to the payment of a staff engaged in that work. Of that staff there are a number who have been there for years, who are practically permanent. The names of some of these are Messrs. Munroe, Watts and Pelletier and Miss Ross. These have been paid out of this vote the same as in former years. I think that Mr. Pelletier was appointed three or four years ago, hut the others were all members of the staff when I came into office. There is almost infinite work to be done in preparing tables giving in form to be used by the public, information from the census schedules. Much work of that kind has been done by this staff within the last few months, and this may appear in the last volume of the census. It is not really census work. The census volumes could have been published on the 1st of July last. But the volumes were not all printed. All but two were not as complete as they are now, but they were as complete as census volumes need to he. This preparation of tables of which I have spoken' Is statistical work pure and simple. It is a kind of work which, I hope, if this Act is passed, to have carried on all the time from one census to another. It is for

work of that kind that I retained a portion of the staff who had been employed on the census, knowing them to be experienced in that kind of work and being aware of what they could do. I had no intention of hiding what was done, and thought I had given the hon. gentleman (Mr. Taylor) the information he asked for in as complete form as be could expect. I have nothing to hide in the matter. If this Act is passed, I will have officers working for the next five years in the compilation, or rather tabulation-for I prefer to reserve the word compilation for the census work for publication in the census volume-in the tabulation of information drawn from the census. That is, to a large extent-but not altogether-the work which these clerks have been doing for the last six months who are paid out of the vote for general statistics. I say frankly that, in doing that work they did finish a small part of the compilation of the census volumes which was not quite complete on the 1st of July last. But it is statistical work within the proper meaning of that term.


Mr. BLAIN.: As I understand the minister, he says that some part of the statistics contained in the Year-book are taken from the last census and some other part collected in some other way. Do I understand the minister to make that statement ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not remember making that statement, but the Year-book, as a rule, is compiled from the departmental reports of the year. There are certain tables in it taken from the census. For instance, I think the population tables are taken from the census and then computed on a certain basis of the actual increase for every year. I think there is a statement of the population of the country every year in the Statistical Year-book which is computed from the last census on a fixed proportion of the natural increase, and in that way it is taken from the census. I think there are some other tables computed in the same way from the census. But the Year-book for this year would not have any statistics taken from the census of four years ago. It would have to be computed to bring it up to what the officer in charge of the Year-book would calculate to be the statistics for this year. But the great bulk of the statistics in the Year-book are taken from the departmental reports for the year, and one reason why the Year-book has been late in coming out is that the officers working on it can only begin their work when the other reports are finished and supplied to them.


Richard Blain: Are we then to understand that the information contained in the Statistical Year-book is all taken from the last census returns and the departmental books that are published ? Or, in other words, does the Statistical Year-book contain any further information than that which is procured from these two sources ?
32J


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The officer in charge of the Year-book gathers no outside information each year for the Year-book ; it is only from the publications of the government that he compiles or tabulates it. He does not collect statistics in the way that this Act contemplates they shall be collected in the future, and which I hope to do with the power proposed to be given.


Richard Blain: I understood the minister to. say that some proportion of the $18,000 expended last year was for the purpose of collecting special statistics.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, what I said was that of this $18,000 $15,000 is a new vote. The $3,200 which has been voted for general statistics for many years back has always been expended in the payment of certain salaried officers who are doing work on the Yearbook. The work I have spoken of was other work, but none of this money was spent in the way of gathering information from outside sources, it was only spent on work connected with the compilation of the census and the preparation of tables from information in the census.


Richard Blain: Then the Statistical Yearbook gives no new information whatever, it is simply a compilation of the returns of the different departments?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think that is the case.


Richard Blain: Then the minister proposes to expend a certain amount of money for the collection of information between the censuses that are now being taken? Would the minister state how he proposes to collect that information in the province of Ontario, both in respect to agriculture, commerce and manufactures?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If the hon. gentleman will look at the Bill he will see that I take power to get such information as I can from any provincial or local sources ; when I consider it accurate and complete I would not undertake to do the work over again.


Richard Blain: The minister stated the other day that in the province of Ontario there was very full information taken every year by the assessors ? Does he propose to take any further information in the province of Ontario in respect to these statistics ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot say just now what the assessors do collect. I think myself we would not make any commencement of getting more information than is now published by the Bureau of Statistics in Ontario on agricultural subjects. Perhaps afterwards we might arrange to get more.


Richard Blain: What about other subjects?
Mr. FISHER, Yes, industrial subjects, because in the province of Ontario, so far as I know, there is no information of an industrial character such as I have outlined and that I think we ought to collect. But

we would not need to collect whatever is already collected by some local or provincial organization. If there was a local or a provincial organization which already collected such information, I would make use of it, and supplement it where necessary.


Richard Blain: We are to understand then that in Ontario, at least, the agricultural statistics that will he procured under the new expenditure will be no different from what they are at the present moment, but the minister proposes to expend money for the purpose of procuring commercial and manufacturing statistics which will be valuable to the people. I suppose, before bringing down his Bill, he has outlined some plan that he proposes to adopt before asking for this increased expenditure. He knows that at the present time there is a large number of manufacturing concerns in Ontario and he knows that information respecting them and respecting commercial affairs, would be valuable to the people. Surely the hon. gentleman must have some fixed policy in his mind of the way he proposes to collect that information ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I thought I had already answered that question. My plan would be to take industrial statistics, as well as agricultural and manufacturing statistics. For that purpose I would have the officer here prepare a schedule of questions, and I would send these questions out to the industrial establishments whose record we have in the department. I would have the office here secure information by the best means in their power as to new industrial establishments wherever any sprung up. I would ask the managers or members of these establishments to fill up the schedules which were sent to them, and return them to the office here. That information would be very considerable in its character, it would enable the office here to compile those answers and tabulate them in a proper form to be published. I think that ought to be done as far as manufacturing industries of all kinds are concerned, once, twice or three times between every decennial census. That ought to be done, not only for the province of Ontario, but for the whole Dominion. I may say that the work of this office would be done for the whole Dominion, the same kind of information would be obtained for the whole Dominion, the information will be compiled for the whole Dominion in all its subdivisions and would be issued as information concerning the Dominion of Canada. I do not know whether that covers the ground referred to in my hon. friend's question.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Suppose they refuse or neglect to give answers to the question ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have power to require them to give the information under this Act. We have power under the Census Act to require the information when taking the census. If anybody refuses to give us in-Mr. FISHER.
formation he can be summoned before the court and ordered to give it, and if he then refuses he is subject to a penalty. I forget the exact penalty but it is a serious one. There is a fine and imprisonment in the final resort for a refusal to give information. In this Act I ask for power to get that information in the same way in any investigation undertaken by the office. This same power I now have in connection with information in census work.


Richard Blain: I would like to ask the hon. minister if this work will be done without the appointment of a number of officials in different parts of the provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The outline I have given does not contemplate the appointment of officials. At the same time, I do take power under certain circumstances and for certain special investigations, if by Order in Council these investigations are decided upon, to appoint a special official for such special investigations. That is now given me under the General Statistics Act. I can to-day appoint an official under the General Statistics Act to go and make an investigation of any special industry in Canada and get statistics and information in regard to it, but I could not force people to give information. By this Act, if passed, I will have that power, but otherwise I have the power now' except wTith that limitation of which I have spoken.


Richard Blain: The hon. minister has already stated that the department have a correct list of the industrial establishments in Canada. If a new' establishment is put in operation or an old one ceases, what facilities has the hon. gentleman for keeping the list in the office up to date ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: One of the first duties, I think, of a department of this kind would be to make what I might almost call a catalogue or index of the industries of the country. I think that can be done in the first place by taking the names of the industries already entered in the last census. We have all the details of them. Of course, a few of them may have disappeared and a number of others may have been created. We have easy facilities for getting them. The Boards of Trade in the different cities and towns and the commercial directories which are available to anybody would assist us in that respect. We would have all these available to our hand and we would, as one of the very first works of an office of this kind, prepare a list of industrial establishments. I think that should be one of the first works in connection with any industrial investigation. As a matter of fact, in the census of the industries of the United States which is going on to-day under the permanent census office that is just the way that they are proceeding. That is the way I have proceeded in connection with the agricultural industry in this country. I

have to-day in my own department elaborate and very carefully prepared lists of those engaged in what I may call the agricultural industries which have been prepared in the way that I indicated, and by a careful consultation with those who know about these things all over the country. To illustrate the matter I may say that we consulted the dairy association in regard to the butter and cheese factories. We have inspectors all over the country who know all about these. We have an almost absolutely complete list of all the butter and cheese factories in Canada, and wTe also have a very correct list of the bacon establishments, the fruit evaporating works and various industries of that kind that are connected more or less with agricultural work. The same kind of thing could be easily done : it will take a little time and money, but there is no insurmountable difficulty and I am satisfied that under the operation of this Act as complete records of the other industries of the country can be obtained.


Mr. BARR.: Mr. Speaker, we are undertaking a work which will in all probability cost a very large sum of money and it may be proper at this stage to consider what we are going to get in return. We do know that in Ontario and Manitoba, at least, they have already facilities for gathering all the statistics and information that are likely to be received through this new office. The hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) has told us that he proposes to have this census taken every two or three years. It will be important for us to know how many months or years will be permitted to elapse between the collection of this information and the time at which it is given to the public. We do know that a most important part of the census which was taken three years ago. a part that we desire to have as dealing with a question of the greatest importance to the members of this House, is not yet out, and we have no guarantee that it will be out within the next year or two. It seems to me that unless some better proof can be shown of the necessity for the information proposed to be gathered it is not desirable that such a iarge sum of money should be expended. We should have some guarantee from the hon. minister as to the time at which the census will be taken and we should also have some guarantee as to whether we are going to have this information within a few months after it is collected instead of being furnished with some old, out of date material. because, if this information is to be of any value to this House and to the country we must have it within a few months of the time at which it is gathered. If it is the intention of the hon. minister to collect that information and to give it to us within a reasonable time there may be some excuse for the inauguration of this new department. but when we find that the publication of the results of the last decennial census
has not been characterized by such expedition as is necessary if the information is to be of value to the country we are not encouraged to hope for better results in this ease. If the hon. minister can assure us that the information will be collected and issued within a reasonable time and in a form in which it will be readily available, especially to manufacturers, then I say there may be some excuse for it. but I do hope that we may get this information more promptly than we have been able to obtain that which has been collected in the past.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would say to my hon. friend (Mr. Barr) who has just taken liis seat that certain parts of the information, such as I have been talking about now, can be got and after it is got it can be compiled in about a month and issued. When we have the whole census to deal with that is another matter. I am only speaking about certain interim or partial information obtained from time to time. That information can be issued very rapidly by bulletin. A complete eonsus of industries for the whole country might take longer, but to obtain what I might call this industrial intercensus information for, interim reports, I believe would take a very short time : I believe that we could get the information and compile it within a couple of months of the date on which the heads of the firms furnished their information. Supposing that next week I was to send out schedules to firms all over the country and to ask them to return them to us on the 1st of April, filled up with information to that date, I venture to say that all the compilations in regard to that information would be ready and issued to the public before the first of .Tune.


Mr. GANOXG.: Will the schedules under this Act be the same as those in the regular census?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Oh, no, the schedules will be specially prepared for this purpose.


Gilbert White Ganong: I think if there are special schedules we should know what they will be because I do not think'the manufacturers should be subjected to the whim of any minister, no matter how honest he may be, as to the information they are forced to give.
Mr. FISHER, In regard to that the census requires manufacturers to give us this information, but the individual manufacturer's information is never divulged to the public; it is only compiled and the compilation is given to the public, but the individual manufacturer's information is given to our officials under the seal of secrecy and that information is not accessible to anybody. We cannot get general information for the whole country unless the details of that Information are supplied to some officer who will compile them. That is an 1 essential principle of the Census Act rind

it must be an essential principle of any arrangement for collecting statistics. I may say to my bon. friend that in tbe last census there were only a few individual and scattered instances where any manufacturers objected to giving the information. When such a case arose, instead of taking the manufacturer by the throat and forcing him by law I sent a special officer to meet the manufacturer and to explain the situation to him, and in almost every case the manufacturer recognized the true situation and saw that the information in regard to their own particular business was not going to be divulged to the public but would simply be a portion of a statement in regard to the general business of the country. I think that in two or three cases I actually had to threaten them with proceedings to get the information, but in the whole Dominion of Canada there were only one or two such cases.


Gilbert White Ganong: I am not objecting to a general census schedule, but I think it is putting a good deal of power into the hands of the minister. If the minister went far enough he would find a good many kickers in this country.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think in a matter of this kind the schedules must necessarily vary, in the United States the information is not divulged except with consent of the parties interested.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is not divulged at all.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: They must necessarily vary ; it is not like the case of a general census. I listened to the information given by my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) and of course he has convinced me that it was necessary that a permanent census office should be established. In the United States it is true that the permanent census office was only created in 1002 and it is still in the probationary stage. That appears by the annual report published by the new census commissioner of the United States, the chief of the permanent census bureau, and it is a question that has been discussed in the United States ever since 1879. I believe also that if we had a permanent bureau organized with as little expenditure as that intimated by <tlie minister, and if the work was properly carried on, it would tend to diminish the expenditure of the decennial census because there are two parts in the measure of my hon. friend, one in regard to the decennial census and the other in regard to the creation of this permanent office. I have nothing to say as far as the decennial census passages are concerned ; they are very much the same as those already in the law. The Bill of my hon. friend, however, abolishes the Act respecting statistics and the Act respecting criminal statistics. We are entering upon an entirely new order of things and crea ing a machinery which I submit to my hon. friend must necessarily Mr. FISHER.
tend to increase in expense from year to year if it is to be really effective. Although my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) has given a general explanation I do not find that he has gone into enough detail as regards the method of carrying out the work of the permanent office and the details of expenditure. I think that if we are going to limit it to some $20,000 per annum for four or five years it would be a certain consequence that there would only be work performed here at the permanent office; no field work could be done but my hon. friend lias not given us that assurance. Indeed from some of his later remarks I would rather gather that outside work would have to be done on a rather extensive scale and I really cannot think it is possible to confine the expense of that new machinery within the figure mentioned by my hon. friend. We are furthermore to create a permanent office, and I question if it would not be worthy the consideration of the hon. gentleman and the government whether it would not be better to place the permanent census office as soon as we create one under the control of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Of course if the census had been confined to a decennial event it is not so important and we can ignore the question of why it was placed in the Department of Agriculture. I do not say this because I have any want of confidence in my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) but because I tlinil- the work of the Department of Agriculture must necessarily tend to increase greatly, and that this work of the collection of statistics in regard to industry, agriculture, and the trade of the country would be much better placed in the Department of Trade and Commerce just as I think that the Department of Labour would be better if entrusted to the Department of Trade and Commerce because these subjects are corollary ones and are better treated in the same department. That is the way the United States have constituted that work, and I see from the reports that the placing of these three branches of work under the same department has been productive of very good results. My hon. friend has spoken of a sum of $20,000. I would like to call my hon. friend's attention to the figures of the cost of the permanent census office in the United States since this department was established two years ago. Of course, I am prepared to admit there is a great difference in the work to be done, but having due regard to the work to be done I find that our census work and work connected with statistics in Canada calls for a much larger expenditure proportionately than the same work in the United States.
The census of the Philippine Islands, taken quite recently, and the tabulating and compiling of that census, with a population considerably greater than we have in Canada. namely, 8,000,000 souls, has cost the United States $214,117.58. The twelfth c-eni

sus of the United States itself cost only about $11,000,000 ; and when one considers the population of that country, what that census has produced, the large number of volumes and what a marvel of research and information it is, one cannot help coming to the conclusion that the one and a quarter million dollars which we spent for our census is proportionately a very much larger sum. The cost of the census bureau of the United States, similar to the one which my hon. friend seeks to create here by the present measure, was, in 1903, $1,350,271.08, and in 1904, $1,102,693.04 ; and it will appear to members of the committee who will take the trouble to peruse the first report of the Director of the Census Bureau to the Secretary of Commerce and Labour concerning its operations for the year 1903-4, that a much more clearly defined scheme, carefully prepared and studied, was submitted to Congress, before Congress, by a law passed in March, 1902, decided at last to establish that bureau. There is another point to which I desire to call the attention of my hon. friend and the committee. We have not a very large amount of money at our disposal for the mere taking of statistics.
I mean that we have much more immediate and practical uses for our available money, although I do not for an instant deny the usefulness of a permanent census bureau, if the expenses of it can be kept within proper limits ; and t do not think that can be unless a more detailed and carefully thought-out scheme is first submitted to the House by the department interested. We are exposed, 1 think, to the danger of a double taking of the census, unless, before seeking the authority of parliament for the establishment of this bureau, my hon. friend finds out what can be done with the provinces in regard to the statistics which they take at present. I see by section 16 of my hon. friend's Bill that he takes authority to arrange with the authorities of the provinces or territories for the supply of their statistics. That is what has been done in the United States with a large number of the states. Arrangements have been made by which the federal office gets the benefit of the statistics gathered in the different states, and even, as in the case of Michigan, contributes equitably to the cost of obtaining those statistics. I have heard it mentioned here that industrial statistics are gathered in the province of Ontario. I do not believe that we have in the province of Quebec machinery for getting industrial statistics. My hon. friend from Beauharnois (Mr. Bergeron) reminds me that we have agricultural statistics, and a very complete system established under our municipal law, by which we obtain a very valuable amount of information which is absolutely necessary for a census office such as the one in contemplation, and which is obtained without any expense to the province. Of course, the information gathered from time to time
would be absolutely useless unless it were furnished to the public, as it is under every proper system of this kind. My hon. friend will find that for educational, municipal and agricultural statistics he can obtain ia the province of Quebec almost all the information which he requires for his office, and which I am afraid will be duplicated if we rush hastily into this proposed scheme of a permanent bureau without beforehand making arrangements with the provincial authorities. I may say, with regard to municipal statistics, that under our provincial code the secretary-treasurer of every municipality governed by the code is bound to furnish to the Lieutenant Governor the name of the corporation, the estimated value of the taxable real estate, ihe estimated value of the real estate not subject to taxation, the estimated value of the property declared liable to taxation by article 710, the number of persons paying taxes, the number of arpents of valued land, the rate of assessment in the dollar imposed for all purposes, the value of the property of the corporation, the debentures of the corporation, the amount of taxes collected within the year, all other sums collected, the amount of arrears of taxes, the capital amount due to the municipal loan fund, the amount of interest due upon such loans, all other debts, the amount raised by loan within the year, the amount received from the government under the Seigneurial Act, the interest paid on debentures, the expenditure for salaries and other expenditure for municipal government, all other expenditure, the number of persons resident in the municipality, any other statement which the Lieutenant Governor in Council may require. That is what the secretary-treasurer of each municipality is bound to furnish to the Lientenant Governor in Council. In other words, he must give every possible municipal statistic of interest, and whatever other information may be required from him by the municipal authority. Town councils, under our General Town Clauses Act, are obliged to furnish by their secretary-treasurer similar information. The secretary-treasurers of county councils are also obliged to furnish special information. We have, of course, a complete set of educational statistics. It is only the province that can at present obtain that information. I am sure that a system could be easily devised under which, at very small expense, we could obtain agricultural statistics. With regard to industrial information, it would perhaps be better to wait until we see what is the result of the first industrial census which is being taken by the permanent census bureau in the United States, where there is under contemplation at present a general law called the License Law, which will apply to all corporations under the jurisdiction of Congress, requiring them to furnish automatically, so to speak, to the government all statistics
100V

and information of a general nature, saving always to the officers of the general census bureau the right to obtain special information for special and specific purposes.
Does my hon. friend intend doing any outside or field work ? As far as I can see. he has not tried to make any arrangement with any of the provincial authorities in order to prevent the duplicating of the same work and thus causing confusion and useless expense. I should think that the provincial authorities, who are best qualified to collect the information referred to by my hon. friend, would do that work for very much less than it would cost to have it done from Ottawa. My hon. friend does not seem to have attempted to follow the system adopted in the United States. There a very considerable proportion of the states act in concert with the federal census bureau for the purpose of securing and compiling statistics on many subjects. I believe that the scheme outlined by the minister will lead to the appointment of officials to do outside work and entail considerable expenditure. It seems to me that before deciding to establish this bureau, we should find out what arrangements can be made with the provinces so that we might work harmoniously with the provincial authorities. For these reasons I think that my hon. friend should wait until he has gone further into the subject and made sure oi what co-operation he can obtain from the provinces.
province of Quebec where there is no agency for the collection of those statistics ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The same difficulty exists in Ontario. Even in Ontario there are no industrial statistics collected to-day.


Mr. INGRAM.: Yes, there are.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: To a very limited extent.


Andrew B. Ingram: In the matter of labour employed in manufacturing institutions, I have here certain letters which the department of the province of Ontario sends out to tlie manufacturing establishments asking for certain information. Look at page 101 of the Bureau of (Statistics Report for 1903.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Is there any tabulation of the returns there ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not examined that particular volume, but I have always understood that there was very little of what I have called industrial information collected by the Ontario Bureau of statistics. There may be a little about the number of hands employed, and, in Ontario and Quebec- and the other provinces, I suppose-information is collected by the factory inspectors as to the hygienic condition of factories. But I do not think there are statistics as to the manufacturing productions of the province, the capital employed and so on.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am pleased to note that my hon. friend endorses at any rate my idea of having a census office established for the Dominion. If I am not mistaken, the leader of the opposition last year gave utterance to somewhat similar views as to the desirability of having a permanent census office established at Ottawa. Anybody who has interested himself in statistical work will appreciate the advantage of such an office. I quite agree with my hon. friend regarding the advisability of our utilizing where possible, provincial and raunicip'al labours. We certainly would not for a moment think of collecting ourselves statistics which can lie procured from provincial or municipal bodies. In the province of Ontario certain statistics are compiled by the Bureau of Statistics and published. but there is not much of that work done anywhere else. In the General Statistics Act, I am given the power, which is repeated in this Act, of making arrangements with local authorities to supply me with the information they gather. But if certain statistical information can be obtained from the provincial or municipal authorities, that would still have to be compiled for Dominion purposes and also separated into groups, and that work could only lie done at the central office in Ottawa.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How will the hon. gentleman collect industrial information in the


Andrew B. Ingram: Here are a few words from the letter :
The bureau in seeking your co-operation in this matter gives you the fullest assurance that any information you may give will be received in the strictest confluence, and will only be used in tabulated form, and in such manner as will not disclose the identity of the person supplying such information.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Will the hon. gentleman furnish me with the list of questions asked ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes ; there are twenty-one questions in the list.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Even supposing that this work is done for the province of Ontario, it is not done, as the' hon. member for Jacques-Cartier (Mr. Monk) says for the province of Quebec. I propose to ask that information from the manufacturers all over the Dominion. I have already told the committee that I had no intention of sending out enumerators between censuses to collect industrial information. I would do the work by correspondence, by sendjng schedules to be filled up by the heads of the industrial establishments. I want it throughly understood that, if such machinery as my hon. friend seems to think necessary-a corps of enumerators all over the country to collect this Information-were adopted, the amount I have estimated would


Frederick Debartzch Monk: not be nearly enough to meet the expenditure. The estimate I have made is based upon the plan outlined. First, we will take all the information that is now collected by local, provincial or any other machinery, and, secondly we will collect Industrial information by sending out schedules asking for reports to the office. I have no intention of going into the more expensive method referred to by my hon. friend from Jacques-Cartier. This is a scheme which has been adopted, as my hon. friend says in the United States. Their expenditure is very much larger than ours. For instance their census cost about $11,000,000 against, about $1,000,000 for ours. My hon. friend says that they have a very much greater number of people to enumerate. But the area over which the enumeration takes place in the United States is not larger than in Canada. The expenditure in proportion to the number of people might reasonably be expected to be greater in Canada. Also, speaking from memory and subject to correction, I think there is a considerable amount of information in connection with mineral production given in our census which does not appear in the census of the United States, but which it is the intention of the permanent bureau of census of the United States to collect.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not see how my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) can even avail himself of the statistics gathered by the provinces without either outside work or making an arrangement with the provinces and contributing at least a small sum in order to secure the benefit of the statistics collected by the provinces. As he has said, the statistics of the provinces are not compiled as he would want them compiled, and there must be expenditure in getting them in the shape in which he wants them. He must make an arrangement with the provinces, an arrangement which, X think, we ought to control to a certain extent; or else he must employ outside help. And once he enters upon that he will find the expense considerable. Moreover I fear, as an hon. member on this side has suggested, that once we enter upon this work, the provinces will abandon the statistical work in which they are engaged, in order to save expense and oil the plea that we are doing the work. That is one reason why I would urge that an arrangement be made with the provinces beforehand. I do not wish to prolong the discussion. If this were merely a question of the expenditure of $20,000, it would not be of so much importance. But I again call the attention of the committee to the fact that three departments which naturally are closely connected are now separated. We have the Department of Labour, under the Postmaster General-for what reason, I cannot imagine, except expediency at the time of its establishment-possibly political expediency. We have the Department
of the Census under the Department of Agriculture, though there is no natural relation between the two. We have the Department of Trade and Commerce. X really think that more effective work would be done and some money saved if these three departments were under one head.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have now six millions of people in the Dominion of Canada. And, since 1896 this government have increased the public expenditure enormously. In 1896, under the former government, we had a statistical department. When the year for taking the census came round, the work was done under that department for about $500,000 on each of two occasions. The last census, under the present government, cost more than double that amount. Now, after the census has been nearly completed the Minister of Agriculture proposes that we establish a census bureau. The people of the United States, up to 1902, got along very nicely with only a statistical department.. They did not think it necessary, until they had a population of about eightly millions to have a census bureau. But we, with a population of only six millions think we must have a census bureau. We have had a statistical department for years. We hqve had a Department of Labour which has agents all over the country furnishing it with statistics.
Now how does the hon. gentleman propose to obtain his statistics 7 He says the reason he is asking for so little money is the excellency of the method he proposes to adopt, namely :	to issue a circular letter
to the various individuals in order to get the information. In the province of Ontario where they have agricultural, industrial and mining statistics, they have found that the circular letter method for collecting statistics does not work well, it is largely a failure, and it will be still greater in the hon. gentleman's case. Indeed the failure will be still greater, because lie is proposing to perform an entirely new work in a new field, while the Ontario system has been going on for years. Now what do we find in this circular lgtter ? We find that they ask for :
Name of firm ; post office address ; character of business ; capital employed, including plant; number of days in operation during the year ; gross value of product manufactured during the year; lias the production increased or decreased during year ; if either, what per cent; value of materials used in production during year, including fuel, gas, &c.; total taxes paid during year ; total insurance paid during year ; amount invested, if any, in permanent repairs or plant enlargement during year ; total number of employees during year (wage-earners only) male and female ; total wages paid during year to wage-earners only, male and female ; highest weekly wages paid, male and female ; lowest weekly wages paid, male and female; total

number of salaried clerks and officials, male and female ; total salaries paid to clerks, officials, &c., during year; have wages been increased or decreased during the year; if either, wbat per cent; what class of employees has increase or decrease affected; if both, what per cent in either case ?
Now, I doubt very much whether the hon. gentleman, under his method, can draw up a better set of questions than those twenty-one questions I have read. Of the method of collecting statistics, the Ontario officials say :
Notwithstanding that every assurance of confidence was vouchsafed by -the department, but 307 answers were received to 3,000 circulars issued, demonstrating the prediction previously expressed that the mail method of seeking such information is altogether ineffective.
Now here is a province that for years has been collecting statistics, having educated people to the necessity and importance of replying to these circular letters, yet we have the admission in that old province of the total failure of that method. I pointed out the other evening that for the amount of money the hon. gentleman was asking his method would never work. Instead of asking for $35,000 he is now asking for, the expenditure will be largely increased by the establishment of this branch of the census bureau. The creation of this department of the census bureau will mean a head, a deputy head, possibly, and many assistants, it will mean the incurring of a large amount oil. expense. Now instead of doing that, why not adopt the machinery you have at band ? You have a statistical department, give it more clerks, and obtain by its means the information that you are proposing to obtain by this new method. It would mean less expenditure, and to my mind, it would accomplish all the hon. gentleman is endeavouring to accomplish by this legislation. The people of the country are complaining of too much government, of over legislation. They say that we have too many members in this House, too many ministers in this government, too much government machinery, and they are complaining of the burdens imposed upon them. We are to have this session the creation of one, or perhaps two, more provincial governments in the Northwest Territories, no doubt a very proper thing ; but they will certainly increase the expenditure of government in this country to that extent. Instead of going on with this Bill, let the hon. gentleman adopt the suggestion of my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) and see what the United States are going to accomplish by their new census bureau. The time for taking the new census will soon be on us, and I hope we will then be in a position to take a better census than has been taken this last time. This last time there were many statistics collected that were really unnecessary, because the several departments already had the figures recently collected which Mr. INGRAM.
would have served the purpose, instead of issuing so many schedules to collect the same information. For instance, we have an Indian Department, a Department of the Interior, who know perfectly well the number of Indians we have on the reserves, and know all about them. What more could we gain by employing census enumerators to go round and take these Indians all over again ? That is only one instance of the prodigal manner in which the public money has been expended, and that is one reason why the cost of taking the last census has already reached $1,250,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The questions asked in the province of Ontario for collecting industrial statistics are more numerous than I would propose to ask. But there is this essential difference in the operation of the method, that whereas the provincial government lias no authority to compel people to answer questions, and as a matter of fact they do not answer them, I have power at the present time, under the General Statistics Act, to require answers to such questions. I desire to obtain the same power under the Bill I now propose. I have that power at present, but only in so far as the census year is concerned ; I want the same power to obtain answers to these questions. I think the reason why the information with regard to industries in Ontario is not complete is that the local authorities have not got power, and cannot collect the information. Practically the Bill now before the House is a consolidation of the General Statistics Act with the Census Act.


Mr.   BRAIN@: May I be permitted to draw the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that in the province of Ontario no new manufacturing establishment can commence operations until it has first been inspected by the factory inspector, and a certificate given that everything is all right. Yet the hon. gentleman says that the reason he wants this large amount of money is to get industrial information in the province of Ontario, as well as elsewhere. I do not think the hon. gentleman has given sufficient information to the committee, and I do not think he has sufficiently posted himself on this question before he has ventured to introduce this measure and ask for this large amount of money to be expended. Speaking for the province of Ontario, I object very strongly to this expenditure of money. If the Ontario government is to expend a large amount of money for taking care of this work of enumerating the industrial institutions and collecting agricultural statistics, paying for it out of the treasury of that province, why should not other provinces do the same thing ? Are we going to govern in Ontario and regovern in the Dominion, or govern in Manitoba and regovern in the" Dominion ? As my hon. friend from East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) has pointed out, the people are opposed to this

expenditure. We are paying enormous amounts of money for provincial information and it is now proposed to duplicate this expenditure in the Dominion. 1 am sure that the hon. minister, when he looks into these matters more fully, will either abandon the proposition or come forward and give more detailed information as to what is done in the different provinces.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time, and agreed to.
Mr. FISHER moved that the House go into committee on Bill (No. 5) respecting the census and statistics.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: No.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Weil, if my hon. friend objects to going into committee on the Bid I will not press it, but I would be glad to go on with the matter.


Mr. FOSTER.: It is a case of exhaustion, that is all.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If my hon. friends object we will have to go into Committee of Supply. Do my hon. friends prefer going into Committee of Supply ?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: We might as well make some progress on this matter.


George Eulas Foster: We are ready for anything.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that as soma bon. gentlemen on this side of the House would like to consider a little the suggestions which have been made by the hon. Minister of Agriculture it would be better to allow the matter to stand until to-morrow.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not wish to press it.
Motion withdrawn.



SUPPLY-ICE JAM ON THAMES RIVER.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['The Minister of Agriculture will proceed with his Bill respecting the census, after which we shall continue with the estimates of the Minister of Public Works.']
Mr. H. S. CLEMENTS (West Kent).: Mr. Speaker, I desire to call the attention of the government to a very important question appertaining to the district in which I reside. There are a large number of people living between the city of Chatham and Lake St. Clair on the banks of the River Thames, covering a distance of seven or eight miles on each side of the river, who have a very great grievance because of the ice jamming in the River Thames and causing a large amount of damage to property in that district. I may say that the jam there last year caused damage to the farmers in that vicinity to the extent of from $175,000 to $200,000. The cause of tills jam is the breaking up of the ice between London and Chatham previous to its breaking up between Chatham and Lake St. Clair and the reason of that is that the banks are higher from Chatham to London than from Chatham to Lake St.
Clair, the result being that the water rises more rapidly above than at the lower end. The ice breaks up above several days previous to its breaking up below. The ice remains firm and solid at the lower end and *the ice from above comes down and jams there causing the ice and water from the London district to overflow the banks of the river and flood the property of adjacent residents. I may say for the information of the government that the jam that was caused there last year resulted in the flooding of the magnificent farms on both sides of the river to the depth of eight or nine feet. I may also state that the Grand Trunk tracks were swept away causing damage to that company to the extent of from $40,000 to $50,000 besides impeding traffic for several days. I am not speaking in the interest of the Grand Trunk Railway because I think they are able to take care of themselves, but I am speaking particularly in the interests of the farmers of that district who lost, practically, in many cases, everything that they had. Some farmers, who have good farms, were last-year obliged to go out and work by the month or the day to get a living. The hon. acting Minister of Public Works (Mr. Hyman) who lives in the district knows the situation possibly as well as I do. Although not living in the exact vicinity in which these jams occur the hon. acting minister knows possibly the results of these jams and of the floods caused by them. I trust that the government will see fit to give us a remedy at once. I think there is a remedy. What we desire, and what I have agitated and what a number of prominent men in my district have agitated, is that we should have the services of an ice crusher that would come from Lake St. Clair and crush the ice between Lake St. Clair and Chatham two or three days previously to its breaking up in the London district. There are men living in the district who will be able to notify the hon. acting minister when the crusher should go up the river and break the ice. There are ice crushers at Detroit and at Port Huron, so that they are available in that district, and I trust that the government will see fit to provide a remedy at once. The reason that I call the attention of the government to it now is that the river may break up within the next six or seven weeks and we may have the same results this spring as last spring. I trust that in the interests of the residents of that district the government will see fit to go into the matter at once and give these people the relief which I think they are properly entitled to.


Hon. CHARLES HYMAN (Acting Minister of Public Works).: Mr. Speaker, I may say in answer to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clements) that this is not the first time that the attention of the government has been called to the matter. The former member for Kent also brought the matter to the attention of the government. I am aware of the difficulties to which the hon. member

lias referred. The constituency which I have the honour to represent in the House is also on the River Thames, hut of course, very far up from the hon. gentleman's constituency where the conditions are not exactly the same. The difficulty seems to be that it would be almost impossible to get a boat from Detroit through the Detroit river and Lake St. Clair in time to do the work that would be necessary on the River Thames. If the hon. gentleman thinks it would be any advantage I,should be very glad, as acting Minister of Public Works, to communicate with some of the boat owners at Detroit and see if it is possible for one of these boats to go from Detroit and accomplish the work that the hon. gentleman brings to the attention of the government. We have a resident engineer in the neighbourhood and I shall be very glad to call his attention to the matter, have him visit the locality and get a report thereafter to see if it is possible for the department to carry out the wishes of the hon. gentleman.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I may say, as far as being able to get the crusher from Detroit or Port Huron is concerned, that I think the hon. minister would have no difficulty whatever because the ice is not, as a rule, over a foot or one foot and a half thick. The minister will understand that these crushers are able to crush ice three feet thick, so that it is not necessary to have a boat lie at the mouth of the river for this special purpose. But it would be a great advantage if we were able to get a boat when we required it. We quite understand that it is just at a certain period that the boat is required; it must be at the time when the ice is breaking up, which may be three weeks from now or may be in six weeks.


Charles Smith Hyman: I shall have the engineer report and see what can be done in the matter.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Before you leave the chair I wish to inquire of the Minister of Public Works about an order of the House given January 23, for
A statement showing the amount of money spent by the government, or any department thereof, in the parish of Chateau-Rieher, county of Montmorency, for building wharfs, piers, docks, breakwaters, &c., or for removing boulders or rocks from the beach in front of the said parish, or for any other public works, from the 1st of September, 1904, to the 15th November of the same year.
We would like to have that as soon as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, House went into Committee of Supply.
Public Works-Antigonish public building, $15,000.
['Before you leave the chair I wish to inquire of the Minister of Public Works about an order of the House given January 23, for\nA statement showing the amount of money spent by the government, or any department thereof, in the parish of Chateau-Rieher, county of Montmorency, for building wharfs, piers, docks, breakwaters, &c., or for removing boulders or rocks from the beach in front of the said parish, or for any other public works, from the 1st of September, 1904, to the 15th November of the same year.\nWe would like to have that as soon as possible.']
Gilbert White Ganong: We had some discussion in regard to this matter the other day. I do not think that any member objects to Mr. HYMAN.
Antigonish having a proper building. As far as I am concerned it is wholly as a matter of principle that I am objecting to this vote. I think, as the member representing that constituency said that this town should have a fair share of public money but I do not think it should have more than a fair share, that it should have the share of two or three towns of similar size. Perhaps the hon. gentleman representing the constituency will advise us as to when this town was incorporated?


Mr. McISAAC.: About twelve or fifteen years ago; I do not remember the exact date.


Gilbert White Ganong: Now this is a growing time in Canada. In 1881 the population of the County of Antigonish was 18,060. In 1891 it had dropped to 16,114, a loss of 1,946. In 1901, during the regime of hon. gentlemen opposite, it dropped again to 13,617; it had lost 2,497 of its population.-That is, the total population of the county at the present time is 13,617 according to the census. This population is divided in this manner: Rural population, 12,091 and urban population 1,526, which includes the town I presume incorporated fifteen years since. Well, let us look at the records of the town itself. In 1891, the population was 2,758; in 1901 its population was 1.838. a loss ol' population in ten years of 920, and still they propose to erect a public building there in a town containing 1,838 people that has lost 920 of its population in the last ten years, a town having really no manufacturing business to amount to anything or any present prospect of any such business, a town that is simply an outport, not a port of entry, where not a large amount of shipping is done. I think it is inexcusable to spend $25,000 of public money on such a building as they propose to erect in this town, which has no possibility of growth as far as one can judge. They had to bring forward some kind of excuse and the only excuse they could advance is that they must house the engineer and his assistant. But these officials have evidently been housed before in some form. I do not think that when a buildiDg worth $10,000 or $12,000 is sufficient for the population of this town and is all the government is justified in erecting that we should add another $15,000 to the cost in order to house the engineer and his assistant. Not only does it entail an additional expenditure in the first place, but a janitor must be kept and the heating and lighting of such a building must be almost double that of a building suitable for the requirements of that town.


Colin Francis McIsaac: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ganong) is entirely mistaken in the figures he has given.


Gilbert White Ganong: I should like to pass the census report over to the hon. gentleman ; the figures are in it.


Colin Francis McIsaac: The hon. gentleman asked me how many years it is since the town was incorporated. I do not remember the exact year, I said twelve or fifteen years ago but I am satisfied that it was incorporated since the census of 1891 and that the figures for Antigonish in that census include the population of Antigonish polling district outside of the town limits as the town is now constituted. The only census of the town taken since it was incorporated was that of 1901 which gives a population of 1,838. But it must be remembered that this too is misleading. The town of Antigonish covers a small area, probably a mile long and half a mile wide, but the district outside the incorporated town must be included in the population which will receive benefits from this building. If the committee will look up the census figures they will find that the incorporated town itself is put down at 1,838, but the population of North Grant is 403. That is a poling subdivision of the polling district of Antigonish. There is also Antigonish South, which is put down at 590, making in all a population of 2,831, which is really the population of the town and the adjoining districts which will utilize this public building.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Is there no post office in these outlying districts ?


Colin Francis McIsaac: No, there will be no other post office within a radius of three or four miles. This is the only town and the people outside use this building. When you consider that there are about 2,800 people benefited, it will be seen that the situation is very different from that indicated in the statement made by the hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Ganong). As I stated, the other day the importance of the town of Antigonish has been recognized long ago. It was recognized by the late government as far back as 1882, when they purchased a building which had been used as a college building. It was a wooden building thirty years old when they purchased it, and instead of putting up a new building at that time the government undertook to repair that old building which was very poor economy indeed, because they had, year after year, to make appropriations to keep it in repair. The money was being wasted and the building was not being much improved by the money that was expended on it. It was getting worse year after year until two years ago, when a vote of $1,500 was put in the estimates for repairs. The Board of Trade of the town protested against the expenditure of any more money on the building, a wooden building fifty years old and in such a condition that the expenditure of any more money upon it would be a waste, and they pressed for an examination of it. The Public Works Department sent a man down to examine the building, and he reported that it was entirely unfit for further use, and that It would be a waste of money to attempt any further repairs upon it. Therefore a vote was put in the estimates last year for a new building, and the vote of this year is for the completion of that building.


Gilbert White Ganong: I anticipated just about what our friend has given us, and, to show you that the town is going back, I want to quote these figures. The population of the town proper shrunk from 2,758 in 1891 to 1,838 in 1901, a reduction of 920. The country district, where something is produced for market, I suppose, increased in the same time from 482 to 590. But taking the town and the village together, their population dropped from 3,340 in 1891 to 2,428 in 1901, a drop of 912, and that drop was almost wholly within the town, showing that there has been an absolute loss of nearly a thousand people in a population of less than 3,000 in the last ten years ; and yet we are asked to build a $25,000 building as a monument to the hon. gentleman who represents that district.


Colin Francis McIsaac: The hon. gentleman does not properly represent the facts. He should add the population of North Grant, 403, as well as that of Antigonish South, 590, which brings the population up to 2,831. So that, so far as the town of Antigonish is concerned, there is no reduction in the population at all. The hon. gentleman is not familiar with the locality, and does not give the figures of the surrounding district.
IMr. BLAIN. I see that $1,500 was voted two years ago for putting new letter boxes into this post office. I judge, from what the hon. gentleman representing the county says, that that money was not expended.


Colin Francis McIsaac: No, that is what I refer to.


Richard Blain: The hon. gentleman also stated that a report was presented to the government on the condition of the building. Perhaps the hon. minister would give us some statement as to that before the item goes through.


Charles Smith Hyman: The chief architect in his report states :
The Antigonish public building is a.wooden frame building, fifty feet by thirty-two feet, two and a half stories high, and in a bad state of repair. The main beams and sills are rotten and in such a state that portions of the timber can be pulled away by the hand, and the boards are so 'decayed that 'where repaired they will not hold the nails. The building has settled four inches in the centre, and the plaster is cracked beyond repair. It is reported to he fifty years since the building was erected.


Richard Blain: On whose recommendation was the contract for letter boxes let to a Montreal firm ?


Colin Francis McIsaac: That vote of $1,500 was not expended at all, for the reason I gave.


Gilbert White Ganong: On whose recommendation is it that the department undertakes to spend $25,000 for the erection of a public building at this place, in view of the actual facts of the case, showing a reduction in the population and revenue ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 
Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman asks me a question, and then he says it is on the recommendation of the member alone. I have just read the recommendation of the Board of Trade, asking for the expenditure.


Gilbert White Ganong: There is no such amount mentioned in the resolution of the Board of Trade. They do not suggest for a moment that a $5,000 building would not answer all the purposes. I was perfectly justified in making the statement I did.


Charles Smith Hyman: The Board of Trade certainly made no suggestion as to the amount. The amount expended and the character of the building are of course left very largely to the department.


Mr. WILLIAM WRIGHT.: I would like to suggest that, as there are a great many important growing towns in the Dominion of Canada of larger population than this one which do not participate in these expenditures for public buildings would it not be well for the government to require any municipality wishing a public building to


Colin Francis McIsaac: contribute say half the cost ? If this sort of thing goes on, any little town which has a political pull will be able to get a building, while many large and growing towns all over the country will not participate in these expenditures.


George Eulas Foster: There is no doubt that the old building was pretty old. Fifty-seven years is a considerable age for a wooden building. Something had to be done. The whole question at issue is not that something should not be done at Antigonish, but as to the wisdom of putting $25,000 of the people's money into a building to accommodate such public business as there is there in the way of customs and post office. If it be necessary to provide room for some engineers who have a district under their supervision, they could be accommodated without the country putting up an expensive public building. Suitable rooms could be hired in any town at a very moderate figure. If we were on the other side of the House and the time was about 12 or 15 years, ago, we would have such questions as these put to us. The Minister of Public Works would be asked whether or not there had been any report from the Postmaster General as to the absolute necessity for a building to accommodate the post office in Antigonish and what kind of building was required. He would then be asked, whether the Minister of Customs had urged the necessity for better accommodation for his collector. And if such reports were not supplied, there would be a pretty good sized row kicked up and a charge made that this building was simply being put up in order that the member for the county might be able to show that a certain amount of money had been spent in his constituency. But if you have to put up a building, does not the minister think that in a place of that kind a serviceable and commodious building, which would give all the accommodation required, could be put up for, at the outside, $10,000 or $12,000. Why should the department put up a $25,000 building, when a $10,000 one would give all the accommodation required ? What does this $25,000 expenditure involve ? It involves the annual payment of $1,000 for interest and $500 at least for the cost of caretaking and repairs. You cannot get a caretaker to take hold of that building and pay for the heating and the little repairs every year for less than that figure. That makes $1,500 which you take from your revenue ; and as the whole postal revenue of that office is only about $3,000, one half of it will disappear entirely. Nobody objects to Antigonish getting a serviceable building for its public business, but $25,000 is altogether too much to pay, considering its revenue, population and prospects.


Charles Smith Hyman: In this particular instance the officers of the Post Office Department

were askecl with regard to their requirements and so also were the officers of the Customs Department. It does not seem to me that it would be good policy to put up a building in this town which would not give all the accommodation required. The difficulty is this, that although the estimate of building is only $16,000, it will cost almost as much for fitting up and electric light, and I do not think it is in the public interest that we should skimp and put up a poor looking building which would not do credit to the country. As regards the cost of running it, there is a caretaker there at present, and when the hon. gentleman says, the cost will take one half the revenue, he leaves out of consideration the customs duties which are collected there to the extent of $7,700.


Mr. FOWLER.: I have not the slightest objection to Antigonish getting a public building, but since the county of Albert has, no public building and contains the town of Hillsborough, which has a considerably; larger population than Antigonish, and the population of which is increasing, instead of decreasing, as is the case in the latter, I would suggest that the hon. minister would reduce the cost of this building to $15,000 and spend the other $10,000 on the erection/ of a building of like character in the town; of Hillsborough. That is a fair proposition and in this way he would meet the views of the hon. member for Algoma, who wants tc have the money to be voted for these public works more evenly distributed over the whole country. We have a large customs and post office business in Hillsborough. It is the centre of a splendid farming population and does a very large trade, and I trust the hon. minister will take note of my remarks and see whether he cannot agree to the suggestions I am making.


Charles Smith Hyman: I am sorry I cannot accede to my hon. friend's suggestion. We do not think that a fit and proper building coujd be put up in Antigonish for less than $25,000. But of course if the hon. gentleman has any presentation to make in favour of a public building in the town of Hillsborough, I shall be happy to give it every conJ sideration.


Robert Laird Borden: How many towns are there in Canada with a population of from 1,500 to 2,500 which are not yet provided with a public building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have no statement of the kind with me, but I could have one prepared.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not delay this item for that. Perhaps we can find it in some return already brought down. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hyman) could indicate any official source of this information I would not give him the trouble of having the statement made up by the department. Otherwise, I would like to have it.


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course, it would be easy to make up a statement in the department giving the places that have public buildings, and a list from the census returns of others of similar population.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not speak of this matter because this building is to be in Antigonish. I shall be glad to see a public building there. There are public buildings in towns of a similar size in different parts of the country. But, when we propose to spend $25,000 or $30,000 in a town having a population of between 1,500 and 2,500, I think it would be a desirable thing for this committee to know exactly what that is going to amount to in the long run. If Antigonish is to have a building costing $25,000, we may anticipate, I suppose, that practically every other town of approximately the same size, will demand a similar building, and, according to what I have heard during the last two or three sessions of parliament, we have every reason to expect that their requests will, some time in the early future be acceded to. What is that going to cost us ? To be able to judge of that I want a list of towns from 1,500 to 2,500 population which are not supplied with public buildings sufficient for the ordinary public service of those localities. With this information we shall have an idea of what this policy means to the country. I am assuming, of course, that the department has some policy with regard to it, and that in selecting Antigonish or any other town as a place in which a building is to be constructed costing $25,000, it is proceeding upon some definite policy with regard to the erection of these buildings throughout the country and is not doing it at hap-hazard and simply because one locality or another happens to have political influence with the government.
Mr. BLA)IN. A vote was given in 1903 to equip the old building in Antigonish. That seems to have satisfied them for that year; but, in 1904, they seem to have realized the need of a new building costing a lai'ge amount of money. I think the minister ought to give us a statement of the cost, showing the cost of the land and how it was purchased, the cost of the building and of its equipment. He should also tell us whether the contract is to be let by tender. And when the building will be completed and ready for occupancy and will a caretaker be appointed ? I ask all these questions at once in order that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hyman) may not be called to his feet too often.


Charles Smith Hyman: I desire to give the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) every information. I think this is the third or fourth time I have answered these questions in detail. There will be no cost for the land, as it is the intention of the department to build on the old site. It is estimated that the building itself will cost $16,000; heating, $2,000;

wiring, $600; fittings and the furnishings, $3,000; fencing and sidewalks, $300, and a clerk of works and contingencies to make up a total of $25,000. No contract has been entered into by the department yet, nor have tenders been called for. Plans and specifications will be prepared and tenders will be called for in the legal way by public advertisement.


Richard Blain: When will the building be completed V


Charles Smith Hyman: That is a matter to which the department has not given attention as yet. When a contract is to be let, no doubt the time allowed for construction will be fixed.


George William Fowler: Is it the custom of the department to build sidewalks in front of all these buildings ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Where improvements of this nature are made it is the custom of the department to pay its share of the cost, and, where the department destroys a sidewalk in the course of constructing a building, it has been the custom of the department to replace the sidewalk so destroyed.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Canso public building, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: Has the site been obtained?


Charles Smith Hyman: No. The cost of the site will depend altogether on the part of the town in which it is purchased. There have been no negotiations yet for purchasing a site. The populaion is 2,367. The postal revenue is $1,487, and the customs revenue, $1,787.


George Eulas Foster: What is it proposed to spend there ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is proposed to spend about $9,500 for the building. Then the heating may cost $1,100, the fittings about $1,500, boxes about $1,700; altogether probably not less than $14,500.


George Eulas Foster: What arrangements are now made for the post, office and custom house ?


Charles Smith Hyman: They are in a rented Duild-ing. Wo- pay $00 a year for the post office and $50 for the custom house. It is proposed to put up a brick building on a stone foundation.


George Eulas Foster: Well, the minister sees that whilst, with reference to Antigonish, there was a postal revenue amounting to $3,700 and a customs revenue of $7,700, Canso is a town with only $1,487 postal revenue and $1,787 customs revenue, and the minister now proposes to spend, we will say, about $20,000. on a public building in that Mr. HYMAN.
town. The rentals for the two buildings now amount to $110 a year. The other will be running up to $1,200 or $1,300 a year. It does seem as if the minister wTas running the thing pretty well into the ground. You are undertaking to put these expensive public buildings in every part. What do they do in the United States ? That is quite a forward country, with 80,000,000 people, fairly prosperous. What is the principle adopted there with reference to small post offices ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I must acknowledge that I have not looked closely into the methods pursued in the United States with regard to these matters, and I do not know as we are accustomed to go there for precedents, at least hon. gentlemen opposite tell us we should not. In Canada, when we put up public buildings, we think it is a good principle to make them a credit to the locality and a credit to the country. No doubt by scrimp ing on these buildings we might cut down the expense a little, but I question if, in the long run. that would be in the interests of the country. In making up these estimates I have endeavoured to make the class of buildings fit the localities in which they are erected. In making up these estimates-I desire to be perfectly frank with the committee-I put the sum high enough to cover all probable expenditure, and I expect that we shall be able to keep within the estimate.


George Eulas Foster: What is the trouble with the present arrangements for post office and customs house in Canso ? What is the trouble with the business being carried on under rental as it has been, I suppose, for a number of years ? Did the minister ever think of the system which is in vogue in the United States and other countries, the rental system, not entailing large capital expenditures, where you get a fairly reasonable service for the people ? The minister says it is not always well to look for exsimples on the other side of the line. Just nt this time, when we are building $25,000 post offices in little towns, giving from $1,000 to $3,000 of a revenue, the minister does not want us to go to the United States for an example. I notice the Postmaster General seemed to echo the sentiment of the Minister of Public Works. If the echo were only long enough and persistent enough to reach back eight or ten years, we would hear the hon. gentleman's voice


William Mulock: You can hear it whenever you wish.
Mr. FOSTER-in this chamber very strongly, very vehemently, denouncing the expenditure of large sums of money In small towns for public buildings. I think if the Minister of Public Works would look into the matter as it is carried on in the United States he would find that they have an excellent postal system in small towns and villages, where they use rented buildings. They

give a certain amount as a salary to the postmaster, he finds his place, and finds accommodation, and the people never think of asking the government to erect public buildings in little towns and villages. The Minister of Public Works says he don't want to scrimp. No one asks him to scrimp, but there is such a thing as looking to the source from which the money comes. That source is the hard working men all over this country, many of whom have all they can do to make both ends meet. They have to pay their taxes, and their taxes form a fund into which the hon. gentleman and his colleagues dip. This kind of expenditure is the least valuable that we can make. If you build a railway with public money there is a growing value that returns to the people. They get their goods carried and themselves carried, business is developed, and if you help trade and commerce by subventions, it all tends to growth and development. But a public building in a little town, though it may be nice as a monument, does not bring a revenue, it does not cause any development. It is a nice thing to look upon sometimes, if it is well built, but it does not fructify anything, it does not add anything to the development of the country. You can easily spend a million dollars in that kind of fixed expenditure, but you would much better take the million dollars and put it into what you might call development expenditure. Are we to look upon this as a party measure or as one in the country's interests? If we look upon it in the country's interest, neither of these votes would be in the estimates to-night. But the party is bound to stand by the minister, and to say that the expenditure is good. But the time is coming, our expenditures are increasing so much, that we ought to call a halt upon this method of expenditure. I do not think it is economical; I do not think it is in the interest of the country. What is the rule that the hon. gentleman takes ? If he gives to his friend who represents Guysborough an expensive public building for a small and somewhat thriving fishing town how can he avoid in any fair way of administration giving it to every other town unless he gives simply on the line of distributing it as a part of the party spoils ? My hon. friend may hark back to previous years. Let previous years take care of themselves as far as I am concerned. He can get up and in answer to me he can call up the shades of the past if he pleases, but it is for the present and for the future that we are here and now in the future I am opposed to that kind of expenditure.


Charles Smith Hyman: If my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) and the House would say that for the future there shall be no expenditure on public buildings, but that in all cases buildings for public purposes shall be rented I have not the least doubt of the possibility of a certain amount of money being saved to the 33
country. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster>
takes exception to the erection of these buildings and he says that the time has come to stop expenditures of this kind. The hon. gentleman was in power here for a number of years. He had the honour of being a minister of the Crown and of holding one of the most important positions a* Minister of Finance, and I have just as much right to ask him why the time did not come then when expenditures of this class should be stopped. There is no doubt that this class of expenditure was not inaugurated by this government; it was inaugurated by the previous government, it was carried out by the previous government and if we have erred in this respect it is because we are following in the footsteps of our predecessors in office.


Edward Cochrane: You said it was wrong.


Charles Smith Hyman: If we said it was wrong you say it is wrong now so that we are on an equal footing.


Edward Cochrane: You promised that if you got in you would remedy it.


Charles Smith Hyman: If we are to look at this matter simply and solely from the sordid dollars and cents point of view I do not think that expenditures of this character can be completely justified. I am not prepared to say that the time has come when we should simply call a halt and stop entirely the erection of these public buildings. There are a great many counties in which there are no public expenditures of any kind. There are shire towns in which it is only fair and right that we should have a public building without looking at it entirely from the sordid standpoint of dollars and cents. Without any desire to bring up any particular cases in which the old government may have erred in regard to these expenditures, I can only say that in this we are following the precedent which was set up by our predecessors. The hon. gentleman says that these expenditures are entirely political. Let us assume for the moment that the expenditures of the old government were entirely political-and I presume the argument would apply in that case as well as in this -what would be the effect? The effect would be that that party having been ,in power for a number of years they would have public buildings erected in constituencies represented by the party. Is it fair to say that if another party comes into power it shall not erect buildings in the counties which have been overlooked by the previous government? I remember very well that in 1891 a discussion, possibly like the present discussion, took place in which the hon. gentleman who is now the Minister of Public Works very strongly pleaded on behalf of the town of Woodstock. He pointed out that expenditures were being made in very much smaller places, but that no expenditure had ever been made in Wood-



stock although it was a town of 10,000 inhabitants. I think that neglect was afterwards corrected and that an expenditure was made by the hon. gentleman's government. If you look upon these matters purely and simply from the dollars and cents standpoint I do not think that there can be any doubt that the public business can be carried on in a rented building as well as in an office which is built for the purpose. But, that is not entirely the policy of the government. The policy of the government is, when they have public money, when they feel that they can afford to make an expenditure on a public building to erect a public building, to endeavour to keep the amount of the expenditure as low as possible, but to erect a building in accordance with what the Department of Public Works should erect.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: I am not going to indulge in anything like the pot calling the kettle black, and I am not going to say the province of Nova Scotia is not entitled to her share of the expenditure, but I would like to see that expenditure devoted to some valuable purpose on the lines set out by my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster). Take this Canso vote; $800, is four per cent on the money, $S00 additional is the cost of caretaking and maintenance, and $500 is the sinking fund, making $2,100 a year put on the country where $110 now meets everything. I quite agree with what my hon. friend said that this money should be spent efficiently no matter what we haye done In the past. Look at the good that would be accomplished by the establishment of a technical school in a little town like Canso. If we gave $2,000 to every county in Nova Scotia to improve the fisheries, to extend railways, or to be expended in some other progressive way- the people would get a return for the money. But all they get from this expenditure are brick walls to look at. In the erection of a public building there is no advancement in the commercial or educational life of the people. There is a blank brick wall which is practically of no use except that it is an ornament. We are not here to build ornaments, we are here to advance the interests of the people and we are here as the trustees of the people to administer their estate. The money is theirs, it is not ours. The hon. Postmaster General is one whom everybody respects as an administrator of trust funds and I have heard him speak at times very learnedly on that subject. We are here as the administrators of trust funds which are to be administered in the interest of the people who own the money which is not to be squandered. If it has been the practice in the past to justify expenditures of this kind it is high time that practice ceased no matter which party is to blame. Let us administer this money in a way in which it will be profitable and in which it will convey some benefit to the public. I Mr. HYMAN.
would far sooner see this money put into railways, public schools, the promotion of the fisheries or the encouragement of agriculture and things of that kind than see it expended in this way. It would end in the development and progress of the country and the people would learn to appreciate the act of any government that would spend money in that way. I am not taking objection to Nova Scotia getting her share of the money but I do take objection to the doctrine being set up that when good things are going this or that town is to have her share of the good things because some other town had it in the past and that because one party is in power, qow is the time to reward the constituencies friendly to the government. I do not subscribe to those doctrines at all. I repudiate them and I am sorry to hear them enunciated in this House. If the hon. Acting Minister of Public Works would pay a visit to the United States or some other countries and see if there is not some rule that governs in cases of this kind I think the result would prove advantageous to himself and to the country. I have a pretty fair idea of what obtains in the United States. There is a rule-it is not a very strong rule-but there is a general rule that a certain amount will be spent in towns of a certain population and with a certain revenue and in that way those who have these matters in charge can keep a check on the expenditures. But now, we have sent the idea abroad that an expenditure will be made in any town that is friendly to the government-


Charles Smith Hyman: No.


William Findlay Maclean: That is pretty near what we have heard here to-night; that is that any town of 1,500 inhabitants that is friendly to the government can have $25,000 spent on a public building. That is not good policy. There might be a reason for a public building of this kind if we had public ownership of telephones and telegraphs and if the express business were conducted in connection with the post office. But, we have not got that at the present time and that being the ease I say that this expenditure cannot be justified. I oppose it, not because Nova Scotia is not entitled to an expenditure of public money, but because it is not being expended efficiently and it is not our duty as trustees to squander the public money as it has been squandered in these votes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I entertain the same opinion to-day in regard to expenditures on buildings of this character as that which I have entertained for many years, and I hold that no government has any business to expend money on that principle. We have post offices all over the country and have a somewhat extensive experience as to the cost. Take towns and villages with the

same population and the same amount of *business,, and you will find that in every instance where we rent the building it costs the country very much less, in most cases not one-fourth of the money that it costs to erect our own buildings. Then we put up buildings in some small places while in large towns never a dollar has been spent for public buildings, and to-day we have only rented buildings in them. Take, if you like, the county of Grey, which 1 represent. It is one of the largest counties in Ontario, with a population of about 75,000. If you take Meaford in that county with a revenue of $3,807, which shows that it is a live, prosperous town, yon will find that not a dollar has been spent for a post office, but people there have not clamoured for the expenditure because there is a good postoffice building built by a private individual and all we pay for that is $160 a year as an allowance for rent, fuel and light. $160 a year covers all the expense of a building for a place which is as large or larger than Antigonish or the place where we now propose to put up a post office. What justification can there be for incurring an annual outlay of over $1,200 a year to give the same accommodation to the public which they can receive for $160. It is a very bad business principle. Then take Owen Sound, one of the best towns in Ontario, a town of 10,000 population, but up to the present there has not been a dollar spent for a post office. They have a building rented there at a very much less cost than the interest in the investment and the cost of caring for a government building. Not many years ago when the Minister of Customs (Mr. Paterson) was running up there the Postmaster General visited that town and picked out a very nice site-


William Mulock: I never did anything of the kind.
Mr. SPROULE-and gave the people to understand


William Mulock: I never did anything of the kind.
Mr. SPROULE-all I can say is this that I will give my authority for the statement, Mr. Hopkins, with whom I have been very well acquainted for many years. Mr. Hopkins with the Postmaster General walked into the Patterson house in Owen Sound. The Postmaster General walked upstairs. I asked Mr. Hopkins what he was doing, and he said picking out a site for a postoffice and he picked out a very good one.


William Mulock: It is quite untrue.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And he gave the people to understand


William Mulock: I never did.
Mr. SPROULE-that if they supported the government in this election what a fine
thing it would be for them-
33i


William Mulock: I never did. If the hon. gentleman says that I gave the people to understand that, I give the most emphatic possible contradiction to his statement. I can quite recall being pestered by people wanting to sell lots for post office purposes and to all of them I declined to say anything except this : Owen Sound needs other things more than a post office; it requires the developing of its harbour. That is what I have told the people in many instances.


George Eulas Foster: What does Canso require ?


William Mulock: I am speaking of Owen Sound.


Edward Cochrane: What did you go upstairs for ?


William Mulock: What I have said in Owen Sound is : Owen Sound has magnificent harbour facilities and I think that Owen Sound requires the improvement of its harbour to enable it to make money. That would be better for Owen Sound than to spend money on public buildings that otherwise might very properly be erected. I took this argument and I leave it to my hon. friend if that is not correct. No matter what must be the claims, no matter how justifiable it would be to expend for post office building and harbour works, after all there is a limit to what the country will pay to any particular place, and I have pointed out to the people, not of Owen Sound alone, but of other places, when they have discussed with me from time to time proposed expenditures to public buildings, I have asked them : is there not some other way, is there not something more urgent that would be a more useful expenditure than would the erection of public buildings? My recommendation to them is to see that the application is first made in regard to public works that are of greater urgency and likely to be more advantageous. I have given that advice constantly to people from places like Owen Sound. I did so in Meaford ; my hon. friend refers to Meaford. It is not many weeks since some gentlemen from Meaford proposed to me, thinking I had something to do with the recommendations for the building of post offices, that I should, in the interest of M.eaford, recommend the appropriation of some money for a public building. I said : I think that whatever money the country can afford to give for Meaford would be more wisely expended to-day in developing your harbour. We have commenced to develop Meaford harbour and my hon. friend will justify, I am sure, all we have done there.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.


William Mulock: And will justify more. It has a bright future if wo enable it to trade outside. That is the kind of argument I have advanced at Meaford and at other places. There are some places

not so situated geographically where wharfs, &c., can he of service, inland towns or places that are not in need of harbour facilities; these places may press for expenditure on public buildings, but we have had to contend with the effect of a bad example. The public have been falsely educated. For example, I have before me a paper and 1 will show you-but I did not intend to cut in on the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) and I must apologize. I will later on show where we have been left by the bad example I spoke of.


Edward Cochrane: What did you go upstairs for ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I only hope the Postmaster General will be fortified with sufficient strength to withstand this bad example and adopt better principles. I would like to call the attention of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Hyman) to what a splendid rebuke this is to his policy in regard to post offices, and the principle is a good one, if they only lived up to it. I will say with regard to the Postmaster General that he must have been very unfortunate in the choice of his language in explaining the situation in Owen Sound, for my information was that he went down and showed what a splendid place they had for a dry dock, how much they required for harbours, how badly they needed a post office, and what a fine thing it would be to have all their workmen employed. I had been speaking there and I said that no matter what candidate was returned the government would have to do justice, and then along came Mr. Hardy and said : Oh yes, you will get justice, but there is a difference between cold justice and hot justice. Hot justice was an active commerce, employment for the labourers, expenditure of money in the town, fine buildings going up, improvements to the harbour, and expansion of commerce. This was the warm justice they were going to get in contradistinction to the cold justice which would be meted out if they sent an opponent of the government. The Postmaster General being there two different parties were vying with each other in the effort to sell a site and one of them, who had always been a Conservative, told me in the hotel that but for the fact that he had reasonable hopes of being able to sell a site to the Postmaster General he would support our candidate, but he said : You know I am hard up and anxious to sell my lot, therefore I cannot afford to oppose them. He was unfortunate in his language, because that is the impression he left.


William Mulock: The hon. gentleman has no information except hearsay. Mr. Hopkins he says, told him. I never knew a member of this House more given to founding statements on hearsay than the hon. member. He begins a statement by


William Mulock: saying ' I have heard,' ' rumour says,' ' a man told me,' &c. He is a regular Sarey Gamp with a ridiculous Mrs. Harris. He is eternally producing some imaginary witness to bolster up some absurd argument. I never suggested to any one that we would buy or build a post office in Owen Sound ; I never gave a promise during or before or after an election or said that I was favourable or that the government was favourable to the building of a post office. I ask the hon. gentleman to desist from charging me with doing a thing when I did not do it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think it is quite gratuitous to intimate that I am in the habit of basing statements on hearsay. I say that the evidence that I submit is as good, as reliable and as honest as the evidence that lie submits. I have given the name of a respectable gentleman in Owen Sound who has been there for 30 years or more.


William Mulock: It is about the only time you ever gave the name.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He walked in in my presence along with the Postmaster General. I happened to be in the hotel because I was staying there. Is that not good evidence ?


William Mulock: No.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I submit it is. Let the Postmaster General go Into Owen Sound and say that the evidence of Hopkins is not reliable. I can tell him one thing, that he would not get a very courteous reply. If; the Owen Sound ' Advertiser,' which supports the hon. gentleman, does not bear out in the main what I say with regard to the impressions left on the people's mind, 1 will admit that I was entirely wrong in my impression. But I believe I was justified in every particular. With regard to Mea-ford, I said nothing. About the wisdom of spending money on harbours instead of post offices, I agree with the hon. Postmaster General. The expenditure on Meaford harbour was an admirable expenditure and served a good purpose. If the hon. gentleman proposed to-morrow to spend money for a post office in Meaford, I do not know that I would justify it. Meaford has now a good post office^ which costs the country only $160 a year* whereas, it would be impossible to have a good building put up there at a less cost than double or treble that amount. Take the village of Markdale, where I live. It has as large a revenue or larger than this place, but there is no post office there, and there has never been any application for one. Take Chesley, Durham, Shelbourne,; Dundalk, any one of them as large as this place ; but no person pretends to say that the government would be justified in incur-* ring an expenditure of $15,000 or $20,0001 to put up a public building in each of these

places, because the public are now provide^ with accommodation for less cost than they! would be if the buildings were put. up. What I complain of is the want of business prim ciples in the spending of the public money, the wastefulness of paying $1,000 or $1,200, a year for a service that could be got quite as well for $100 or $200. When the Post-i master General and his friends were on this side of the House. I took the same ground. I said, as a supporter of the government at that time, that whenever the government could not get a suitable building for a moderate figure, they might be justified in erecting a building, but otherwise they would not.


Wilfrid Laurier: But you always supported their votes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Not always.


William Mulock: Yes, always.
Mr. SPRoULE. I ought to know what I did quite as well as the Postmaster General.


William Mulock: Did the hon. gentleman ever vote against a grant of the late government for a post office building ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not in the witness box now.


William Mulock: His principles are his own and his vote belongs to his party.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I said, and I repeat, that when I was on that side of the House supporting the government, I gave voice to the same sentiments that I do to-day. I say now, as I said then, that that is a sound principle, and the government that departs from that principle is not a good business government, and is not using wisely and economically the trust funds of the people.


Sir. SINCLAIR.: The main argument used by some of the hon. gentlemen who have addressed the committee is that we should rent buildings for custom houses or post offices. I wish to point out that in Canso we are absolutely without decent facilities at the present time. The occasion of applying for this building was a fire, in which the existing custom house was burned. The business is now carried on in a dwelling house, a very inconvenient place. There is no building in the town at all suitable that could be secured by the government. The post office is in a small wooden building, something like 8 by 10 feet. It is so'small that the people have to stand outside in the snow on stormy nights while the mail is being sorted, and there is no place to shelter them while the mail is being delivered. This small building was erected by the postmaster because there was no other suitable building. I may also point out that while the revenue from the custom house is small, a large business is carried on in connection with it. Canso is the principal fishing station on the eastern coast of Nova Scotia.
It is now the headquarters of the banking fleet, and a large number of vessels call there year after year. I find on looking at the trade and navigation returns that thu 'lumber of vessels engaged in the coasting trade which called at Canso last year was 802, with a tonnage of 41.349 tons, and having crews numbering 4,988 ; the number of steamers was 607, with a tonnage of 63,317 tons, and crews numbering 6,249 ; the number of vessels outward bound for sea was 466, with a tonnage of 41,066 and crews numbering 6,909 ; making altogether 1,875 vessels calling at that port during the last year, with a tonnage of 145,732 tons, and crew's numbering 18,227 men ; showing the committee that there is a large business done in the custom house there, although the revenue is small.


George Eulas Foster: How does the hon. gentleman account for that ?


John Howard Sinclair: It is the duty of the customs officer to enter these ships and report them.


George Eulas Foster: These are fishing vessels.


John Howard Sinclair: Fishing vessels, from which there is no revenue at all. Canso is not an importing point. A large quantity of goods are used there, but they are imported chiefly from Halifax. Consequently, the amount of duties paid there is small, but the officer has a great deal of work, which he is required to do under the Merchants 'Shipping Act. Canso is a growing town. Some complaint was made in connection with the last item that we were voting money for a town that was decreasing in population. By the census, I find that the popluation of Canso in 4871 was 1,090, in 1881 1,411, in 1891, 1,824, and in 1901, 2,367, an increase of 35 per cent during the last ten years. The number of money orders issued there last year was 2,583, and the amount of money transmitted $29,750.98. Besides being the headquarters of the fishing industry in Nova Scotia, Canso is a cable station. Eight or ten cables are landed there, it has two large stations, one under the management of the Western Union, the other under the management of the Commercial Cable Company. The committee will therefore see that it is absolutely necessary to provide this accommodation at Canso, owing to the fact that there is no building that could be rented at the preseit time.
Glace Bay public building, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population of Glace Bay ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Over 11,000. The town is growing very fast.


George Eulas Foster: What are the revenues ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The postal revenue is $5.443.8S and the customs revenue $46,650.72.

103&


George Eulas Foster: What is it proposed to spend there ?


Charles Smith Hyman: $39,900. The building is to cost about $30,000, heating $2,300, fittings $3,700, and contingencies. The site has not yet been purchased, but negotiations have been started with regard to some sites.


George Eulas Foster: Started before the election ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No, I think within the last month.


George Eulas Foster: Have not the officers been there ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand that an officer was sent there during the last week. There is no report from him yet.


Mr. BARKER.: What has the $3,000 already spent been spent for '1


Charles Smith Hyman: There has been no expenditure of any kind. We have to June 30 to spend the money voted last year.


Samuel Barker: What do you contemplate spending $3,000 for-buying the land!


Charles Smith Hyman: It must be remembered that these estimates are made very early in the year, and it is always a question just what amount we are able to spend within the fiscal year to carry out the orders ot the House. The officer of the department has only been there within the last ten days, and he could not tell within a dollar how much we shall spend of the vote of last year.


Samuel Barker: The minister tells us that he does not know how the $3,000 is to be spent before the 1st July ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not.


Samuel Barker: Surely, the hon. gentleman must have had some idea before he asked for a revote of $7,000 on $10,000 ?


Charles Smith Hyman: As I tried to explain, these estimates are made up early in the year. They were started last December, and so the officers of the department had to look ahead six months. They put down the sum of $3,000 as being the amount of the probable expenditure up to the 30th June next.


George Eulas Foster: Has the minister received any report from the officer sent down to look after the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No.


George Eulas Foster: How much is it supposed that the site will cost ?	.


Charles Smith Hyman: It depends upon the location. I have no report before me. I have some knowledge of the town, and I am afraid the site will be somewhat expensive.


George Eulas Foster: I do not see quite how the hon. gentleman can make his estimate unless Mr. HYMAN.
he has some idea of what he will require for the site.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) will see that we are asking only $15,000. I have given the amount it is expected to spend for the building. Without question we shall have to ask for a further vote, as the whole amount will not be expended in the fiscal year for which this is being asked. When I ask for a further vote,
1 shall have more particulars as to the site.


George Eulas Foster: Is this a general public building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: For customs and post office ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: This is an expenditure which, I think, the minister himself will feel, he has no difficulty in defending. Here is a town of 10,000 or 11,000 people, a growing town; and the hon. gentleman asks for $39,000 for a public building. I should think that there could be no very great objection to that. But how to justify' $25,000 in the ease of one of the towns we have been considering as against $39,000 in this case I cannot see.
I want to.impress upon the minister, if I can, the general policy, already largely carried out in this country, of renting buildings for the public service in the smaller towns and so keeping the expenditure within reasonable bounds.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have already explained that, as between the buildings proper in these two places there is a difference of 100 iter cent. But, when you come to the heating, lighting and fittings, there is not the same percentage in difference in cost. I have gone somewhat carefully into the character of the buildings we are providing for the different places, and I find that there is not so much difference in these accessories between a building costing $10,000 and a building costing $30,000.
Public buildings-Nova Scotia-Halifax Dominion building-improvements, repairs, &c., $2,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is to be done there


Charles Smith Hyman: General repairs. The dep-partment is at present erecting a new building at Halifax, but it is necessary to make pome expenditure on the old one. It is intended to use the new building for customs house purposes, and to use this building for a post office alone. I think the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. R. L. Borden) is aware of the circumstances. The post office part of the old building has outlived its usefulness, and it is proposed to renew the whole building and use it for post office purposes only.
Halifax immigrant building-additional story qver the one story portion, &c., $11,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is to be done with that ?


Charles Smith Hyman: That is explained by the rote itself-it is an addition story over part of the building. There is a contract for the work amounting to $15,000. The estimate for heating is $2,000 ; lighting, $1,500 ; furniture, $1,500 and fittings, $2,000-total $22,000. The amount we have at our disposal now is $11,000 and this is to complete the building.
Halifax immigrant building-detention building, $24,000.


Mr.   R.@: b. BORDEN. Where is that being constructed ?


Charles Smith Hyman: We are now looking fo>
a site.
Mr. It. b. BORDEN. It was voted last year, but, apparently, no part of the money was spent.


Charles Smith Hyman: The whole question in regard to this has been a question of site.
Halifax new public building, $112,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is to carry on the work on the new public building in Halifax which has been under construction since 1902.


Samuel Barker: What is the object of this building, and what is the ultimate cost to be ? So far the figures seem to be $187,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The object of this building is for customs purposes, and to furnish offices for the engineers of the Public Works Department. The contract for the building was $250,000 It is proposed to spend on fittings and furniture, $12,000 ; engine and boilers, $3,000 ; heating boilers, $8,000 ; electric wiring, &c., $4,000 ; elevator, $7,000 ; incidentals, &c., $6,000.


Robert Laird Borden: How many stories will this building have ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Four stories besides the basement.


Mr.   R.@: b. BORDEN. What is to be the size of the building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The lot is 106 feet by $6 feet, and the building covers the whole lot.


Mr.   R.@: I>. BORDEN. Within what time was it to be completed, under the contract?


Charles Smith Hyman: It should have been completed last fall. I understand that the main reason given by the contractor-I have had some communications with the contractor, trying to hurry him up-was the difficulty in procuring stone from the quarry; that, and the difficulty of getting enough stonecutters at Halifax, are the reasons given by the contractor for the non completion of the building at the time specified.


Robert Laird Borden: I understood there was some difficulty raised about procuring skilled workmen, and the workingmen of
Halifax were not very much astonished to find that that excuse had been given. Some action was taken on the subject. Perhaps the hon. gentleman would have no objection to bringing down the correspondence with the contractor. I would not consider the building more than half finished. I think there are two stories and part of the third story up.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have seen a photograph of the building, I think the third story is up and part of the fourth.


Mr.   R.@: b. BORDEN. Has the hon. gentleman any idea when the building will be completed? It has been going on for a year and a half now, and at the same rate it will take a year and a half longer.


Charles Smith Hyman: I think it would take at least a year from the present time to complete it." There is another half story and the roof to be put on. I understand the work will go forward much faster in future.	i


Samuel Barker: I understand this building was to have been completed according to contract five months ago. Will the minister tell us whether anything has occurred since the contract was entered into to postpone the completion of the building? It ought to have been finished in September last. What peculiar circumstances are there that make it improbable that the building will not be completed for more than a year to come?


Charles Smith Hyman: There has been nothing between the contractor and the Public Works Department since the contract was made, which can be urged as an excuse for the non-completion of the building. I gave the reasons which the contractor lias offered, namely, the difficulty with regard to procuring stone. I may say that the contractor, before the building was commenced or a short time after, made application to the department for the substitution of one stone for another, and the department did not accede to his request. The contractor has always said that the main difficulty was to procure the stone fast enough.


Samuel Barker: Has that question of the kind of stone been definitely settled, and is the government to stand by the original contract? [DOT]


Charles Smith Hyman: Absolutely.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to have a copy of the contract and of the correspondence with the contractor, if the hon. gentleman has no objection.


Charles Smith Hyman: Not the slightest. Some of the statements I have made with regard to the stone may not appear in the correspondence. I was in Halifax myself last year, and strongly urged upon the contractor the necessity of pushing forward


tile building, and he made the statement to me personally about the stone.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like an opportunity of discussing this after the documents are brought down, at the same time I do not want to hold up the item.


Charles Smith Hyman: Certainly, I shall be glad at any time to discuss this item when the other estimates are going through.


Robert Laird Borden: I think this is a case in which the department should urge expedition upon the contractor and enforce it by every possible means. The Postmaster General himself spoke the other day In strong terms of the miserable, wretched accommodation in the city of Halifax for the postmaster and his staff. He did not use language any too strong. There was a good deal of delay in letting the contract. It dragged oji for about two years after the item first appeared, and now we have a building only three-quarters finished, that should have been completed five or six months ago. The circumstances of the case rendered It absolutely necessary that that building should be completed within the time fixed, and it does not seem to me that what has been stated by the minister affords any good excuse. The contractor knew the kind of stone that was required for the building, and he should have made provision for it. He simply offered as an excuse, so far as I can gather, that he had some difficulty in getting the stone. Is there no penalty in the contract to compel the contractor to be a little more expeditious ? It is for that purpose I would like to see a copy of the contract. The minister may be able to tell me now whether there were the usual provisions in the contract for some penalty, or some recourse against the contractor in ease he does not complete the building within the time specified.


Charles Smith Hyman: The contract is the usual contract made by the department with contractors. There is a deposit of ten per cent, or thereabouts of the amount which is in the hands of the government, and it is in the power of the government to enforce the contract by making any such deduction from the deposit that the government might feel proper to make. But it is rather a harsh measure to take with a contractor. The government have not always carried that out. I do not know myself of any place where that forfeiture has been carried out by the government against a private individual. The contractor has given as his reason that he is unable to get the stone.


Mr.   R.@: 
Charles Smith Hyman: I understand from the officers of the department that the material is being collected, and that certain stone cutting is going on. I do not think there is any actual laying of stone being done at the present time.


Mr.   R.@: Tj. BORDEN. I am bound to say that I did not see any great evidence of haste on the part of the contractor when I observed the work. However, I would like to see the correspondence before being able to judge definitely, but I would be surprised if any satisfactory reason has been made out by the contractor for the great delay.


Charles Smith Hyman: The documents will be produced.
Inverness public building, $15,000.


Gilbert White Ganong: Is this an incorporated town ?


Mr. MCLENNAN.: It was incorporated last year.


Gilbert White Ganong: It is not so stated in the census.


Angus McLennan: a municipal census taken last year shows a population of some
3,000.	The town is growing very rapidly, it has in fftct much exceeded the population of the shire town of the county of Inverness, or any other of the growing towns in that county. So rapidly indeed has been its growth that in the year 1901 when the last census was taken, the population did not exceed 100, whereas, owing to the development of the coal mines by the Inverness Coal and Railway Company, the population of that locality has increased to 3,000 last year, when a census was taken for the purpose of incorporation. The Postmaster General's return for 1900 or 1901 will show that the revenue from the post office for either of those years would be something like $80 or $85, whereas the postal revenue is now $1,255. The amount of money orders issued was $11,000 and odd during the past year. This abundantly shows the rapid growth of the town even

without reference to census. As an illustration of the rapid development that is going on in mining in that county, I may state that there are two other towns in it which are rapidly developing on similar lines hut not to the same extent as in this instance. There were coal sales from this mine during the past year amounting to 200,000 tons, securing to the government of Nova Scotia $20,000 of revenue and no doubt a proportionate amount to this government The customs revenue at that port will not show much of the amount collected because the goods consumed there by the miners, who are almost absolutely a consuming population, are entered at Halifax and at Montreal. At the same time the customs receipts there would exceed those taken at Canso, and other points where similar buildings are sought. I may say also that although the county of Inverness in population and resources in every particular is one of the most important counties in Nova Scotia, strange to say, it is the only county in that province to-day without a public building within its confines-not one. Its population, according to the last census, is 25,000 in round numbers and from the description I gave of the progress of these mining towns it would not at all he exaggerating to estimate the population of the county to-day at 30,000 ; yet, as I have indicated there is not a public building within its confines.


Mr.   POSTER@: What is the customs revenue there ?
Mr. McLennan. $1,950. It is an out-port of Port Hood.


Gilbert White Ganong: What is the total cost of this building, land and everything complete?


Charles Smith Hyman: There has been no site obtained for this building as yet nor have there been any negotiations in regard to the matter of a site. I am in hopes of putting up a building of the class ' O,' the estimated cost of whicn is $9,500 ; heating, $1,128 ; fittings, $1,485 ; boxes, $288, making, with contingencies, $14,500.


Gilbert White Ganong: It is quite evident that this building is not to be built on the basis of revenue, for I question if you can find another town with the population claimed by he hon. gentleman (Mr. McLennan) with a postal revenue as small as that which he gave.


George Eulas Foster: That $15,000 does not include the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No.


Angus McLennan: In regard to the postal revenue I might further explain that the postal accommodation in that town is so very poor that the company and the bank agent there do their postal business in a great measure with the postal ear, sending
their mail by train direct without any reference to the post office at all, because, there is only a wretched building. There was great difficulty in securing a building at all for the post office for the simple reason that rents are so high in the town that no person would rent the government a building for so low a rent as would be paid for postal accommodation.


George William Fowler: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if these gentlemen buy their stamps from the postal car too ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I am not able to give the hon. gentleman that information.


Angus McLennan: There is nothing to prevent these gentlemen from buying postage stamps where they please.


George Eulas Foster: They do not come up to Ottawa to get them do they ?


Angus McLennan: No, but they go to other offices*


George William Fowler: How far would they go to some other office to get them ?


Angus McLennan: I know that the bank particularly buys its stamps at other post offices.


George William Fowler: Would the hon. gentleman say that this is because of the poor accommodation at this post office ? Surely they have room enough in the post office to keep the stamps. Surely there is enough room for a person patronizing the office to stand in out. of the wet while he is buying postage stamps.


Angus McLennan: The accommodation is so very poor indeed that these parties scarcely care to do business with the office.


George William Fowler: I would suggest that in fine weather they might be able to buy stamps there.


Mr. A. MARTIN.: I would like to know whether the population which the hon. gentleman refers to of 2,800 is the population of the whole country, and if there are any other post offices in the county besides this ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I cannot give the hon. gentleman any information in regard to other post offices, but there is no post office building owned by the government in the county.


Alexander Martin: What is the population of the village where this post office is located ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The population is given at
3,000.	_


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Would it not be worth while for the hon. minister to consider whether a $14,000 post office would meet the wants of * this growing town ? If the town keeps on growing as the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. McLennan) says,

in two or three years it will perhaps need a $30,000 building.
Mr. McLennan. There is no doubt of it. I will come up here again for more.
Shelburne public building, $15,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This vote is asked for the purpose of providing a public building at Shelburne. There has been no site purchased up to this moment. The postal revenue is $1,552 and the customs revenue, which I note has doubled in the last year,
[DOT] is $1,227.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population of Shelburne ?


Charles Smith Hyman: In the last census it is given as 1,445.


George Eulas Foster: What is it supposed this building is going to cost ?


John Barr: It is very hard to understand the principle which hon. gentlemen opposite pursue. We find that in Shelburne, N.S., where the population is 1,445, the government will probably spend $15,000 while, in Shelburne, Ont., which is about the same size there is no building at all.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And the postmaster dismissed.


John Barr: And the postmaster dismissed. It must be because of the large support that hon. gentlemen have from Nova Scotia and which they do not seem to have in. Ontario. I ask on what principle of justice are we spending these large sums of money in one province and in one part of one province when we have a village equally as large, a country surrounding very much superior and a larger post office revenue, and yet we hear no word of any expenditure in connection with a building in that place. There should be some principle of justice and fairness laid down in connection with the expenditure of public money in the different provinces. In Ontario to-day it is very true that there is a large majority against hon. gentlemen opposite, and yet we find from the returns that the money spent in Ontario according to population is much smaller in amount than in other provinces that give a large support to hon. gentlemen opposite. It does seem to me that the prin ciple upon which they act is that to the victors belong the spoils. It does seem to me that this is a pernicious principle. It is one which I admit hon. gentlemen contended against very strongly, one on which they grew eloquent on every occasion when questions of this kind came up. It seems to me that they have forgotten, in these short years that they have been in power, all the principles they professed and the course which they pointed out should be followed, and would be followed as they promised, if they attained the reins of power. Now we find that they have out-Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
heroded Herod, that they have gone far beyond any previous government along these lines. We must draw some line or this system will become a game of grab and the county that gets the greatest pull upon the government will receive the greatest amount of money.


William Mulock: I think my hon. friend will find that he is in error in thinking that Ontario has been slighted, in fact or for any such reason as he has as->
signed. It is a mere accident that money may be distributed among the provinces so that one receives more than another, but it certainly is not based on political grounds, if the hon. gentleman will turn to page 47 he will find that the items to be voted for Ontario for this year amount to $1,094,200-


Samuel Hughes: For post offices ?


William Mulock: Under the head of public buildings-whilst the appropriation for Nova Scotia is $240,500. Of course Nova Scotia in population and area is much less than Ontario, but the vote to be given to Nova Scotia is not 25 per cent of the amount being voted to Ontario.


Samuel Barker: The population is very much smaller.


Gilbert White Ganong: What is the total cost of this building ? You say the ground has not been acquired ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The land has not been acquired. Both the customs house and post office will be placed in this building. It is estimated that the cost of the building will be in the neighbourhood of $S,500. Then it is estimated that there will be $500 for heating, $1,500 for fittings, $500 for any requisites in regard to sidewalks, fencing, &c., and then of course there is an estimate for contingencies, $1,500 making a total of $13,t OOO for the building.


Gilbert White Ganong: I notice that the population of this town is 1,445 and it has made wonderful growth. In the last ten years it has grown 145 people. In the last census the population was 1,300. It seems as if the same principle that applies to outside counties applies also to tho counties represented by the ministers.	[DOT]


George Eulas Foster: Where is the business done now and for the last twenty years.


Charles Smith Hyman: In a rented building.


George Eulas Foster: What is the rent ?


Charles Smith Hyman: $60, for the post office and $40 for the customs.


George Eulas Foster: $100, and you say the customs revenue is $1,227. . You are building a customs house to collect that much money.
Sydney public buildings-addition to, $2,500.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a small amount of money to make provision for completing an

addition to the public building at Sydney. The original building was built some years ago


Samuel Barker: We might take the two items for public buildings at Sydney and North Sydney Mines together.


Charles Smith Hyman: They are not placed together.


Samuel Barker: They are not very far, apart. We have had about $200,000 granted last year and this, about Sydney. Nobody I think, objects to every assistance being given to. Sydney, but we ought to have particulars about this expenditure.


Charles Smith Hyman: Sydney of course is on one side of the harbour and Sydney Mines is entirely on the other side of the harbour. I do not know the exact number of miles but it is quite distant.


Mr.   D.D. McKENZIE@: They are about 22 miles apart and this amount is simply to complete the Sydney building.
Sydney Mines DUblic building, $14,000.


George Eulas Foster: Is this a new building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is a new building, the contract is given, the amount of the contract being $16,750.
Mr. FOSTER, For fittings and all ?


Charles Smith Hyman: That is for the contract ; the estimate for heating the building is $2,000. Fittings are placed at $3,000, and incidentals, $2,500, amounting in all to about $24,000. The department are not sure whether the building will be wired or not; if it is wired we will have to add $1,000 to
doubtful if the expenditure required to keep it entirely isolated would be justified. The policy of the department is wherever possible to have a corner site. In this case the custom of the department is to have a lane on either side so as to make the building as far as possible a detached building.


Samuel Hughes: I do not know the value of land there and whether $4,500 was a high expenditure or not, but I will say there have been instances, both under the present and past administrations, when land was paid for at too high a price, and if it cost three times that amount, I am satisfied that the government would be justified in having fine public buildings kept up, and would be even justified in taking them off the main street of a town and putting them in the nearest square with a park where they, would be safe from fire from adjoining buildings, and would be more attractive. I hope the minister will give this serious consideration. The public will stand $2,000 more for this building if we must have these buildings in order to have proper surroundings for the public building.


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course while the department has the right to choose a site, in most instances they have to consult thh convenience of the city or town in which the buildings are being erected. I can quite conceive myself that if we were to look at it solely from a public works standpoint,1 what he hon. gentleman suggestsi might be carried out, but it has always been the desire and the usage of the department to endeavour to meet the wishes of the city or town in which public buildings may be erect-, ed.
that.


Mr. BE AIN.: How much did the site cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: The site was bought some time since and cost $4,500.


Samuel Hughes: I suppose that was the case in reference to the Sherbrooke drill hall ?


George Eulas Foster: What is the revenue there?


George Eulas Foster: What is the population ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 3,191.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the size of the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is a corner lot on the corner of Main Street and Fraser Ave. There is 96 feet frontage ; tne lot is 45 feet wide, and 130 feet deep at one point; it is a triangular site.


Samuel Hughes: Has the minister taken the precaution that was suggested here of having all these public buildings a certain distance from any other building ? 1 called attention to the fact that in the United States, government buildings are by law not to be within a certain number of feet-I think a hundred-of any other building, public or private.


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not think that could be carried out in the case of small post offices. Here the site cost $4,500 and it is


Charles Smith Hyman: The post office revenue is $2,450, and the customs last year was only $S5.


*Mr. D. D McKENZIE.: There is no customs house at Sydney Mines ; it is an out-port of North Sydney. The post office is a rented building.


George Eulas Foster: How much is the rent ?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I see by the estimates that the postmaster is allowed $65 for rent and fuel, but of course it is notorious that the accommodation is not satisfactory and that there has been an urgent cry for increased accommodation for some time. The hon. minister gave the population of the town of Sydney Mines as 3,000, but I may say that it is one of the boom towns of he province of Nova Scotia and that its population to-day is easily over
5,000.	The amount of money orders handled there last year was $64,000, which shows that there was considerable business done.

It is the home of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Co. The coal shipments from that port have trebled within the last few years. Tailing it all in all, it is a very important town, and not to be measured by the amount of customs revenue collected, because there is no customs house there at all.
Mx-. SAM. HUGHES. Has the minister ever compared the municipal assessment of any of these sites with the price the government is paying ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Our officer has been asked to obtain that as evidence of value.
Souris public building, $10,000.


George Eulas Foster: Has anything been spent on that ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population ?


Charles Smith Hyman: In round numbers 2,000. The postal revenue is $1,537 and the customs revenue $3,358. The estimated cost of the building is $9,500, heating, $1,128; fittings. $1,703, and contingencies, amounting in all to $14,500. If we have to wire the building that will cost $500 extra. No site has yet been selected.


George Eulas Foster: What is the business being done in now 7


Charles Smith Hyman: I have not got that informotion
Campbellton public building, $16,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population V


Charles Smith Hyman: 3,500. The postal revenue is $4,836 and the customs revenue $13,686. This building is under contract. The amount of the contract is $16,600. The heating is estimated to cost $2,000, fittings and furniture about $2,000, extension of sidewalks, if necessary, $500, and adding $3,000, the cost of the building will be about $25,000. In addition, it is a question whether we shall have to put in electrical wiring.


George Eulas Foster: What did the site cost ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 


George William Fowler: From whom was the site bought ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Mr. Archibald Mackenzie.
ill. I OSTER. Hoes the minister have any report from his officers as to existing accommodation before he commences putting up a new building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Only in cases where buildings are rented by the Public Works Department. In this case the rental would be paid by the Customs Department and the Post Office Department, and, therefore, we would have n0 report as to that.


Samuel Hughes: With regard to sites, would it not be advisable for the government to secure options on sites before it is generally known that a public building is going to be erected? It is customary tor the owners of possible sites to raise the pi ices as soon as it is known that a public building is to be put up. Why might not an officer of the department secure a proper site beforehand? He need not even communicate with the leading Liberal of the place. He might get an option on a site large enough to provide a nice public ground around the building. The minister would immortalize himself if he would start that rule.


Charles Smith Hyman: It has been the custom of the department ever since I had anything to do with it to endeavour to secure these options as quietly as possible, so that the government shall not be called upon to pay more than may be necessary. I am endeavouring to get a number of options in different places in that way at present. We usually endeavour to obtain options on several sites, and then send an officer of the department to examine them and report before deciding.
Mr. d. d. McKenzie.


George William Fowler: What is the size ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 100 feet square.


Gilbert White Ganong: This seems to be the only item for public buildings in New Brunswick, and I feel it just that 1 should again call the attention of the minister to the fact that there are three towns in my county all of them more deserving of public buuildings than the town of Shelburne. We have Mill-town, with a very large cotton mill, employing over 800 hands and with a population of over 2,000. It has no government building of any kind. We have St. Andrews, which is as important as Shelburne, being a large watering place with the largest hotel in the maritime provinces-the shire town as well -without any public building. We also have the town of St. George, in which Mr. Gillmor promised a post office, I suppose on the authority of the government, although they disclaim it now. They have five large granite concerns in that place and a very large pulp mill, and still they have no public building. The post office in that town is a disgrace to the Canadian government. The surprise to me is that the postmaster will even stay in it. I would like the minister to take these matters into consideration. As I suggested to him this afternoon, if he would divide up the amount squandered in Antigonish, he might greatly improve the accommodation in these places. However, if money is plentiful in the treasury, we will be willing to accept a vote in the supplementary estimates.


Charles Smith Hyman: It is only fair that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ganong) should inform the committee that he has a large public building in one of the towns of his constituency.


Gilbert White Ganong: And it is only fair to state that for its size there is not a town in Canada that gives so large a revenue either from customs or post office.
St. John drill hall, $10,000.


Mr. DANIEL.: Will the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hyman) please give us the dimensions of this building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I shall be obliged to ask this vote be allowed to stand. I would prefer that it should be discussed when my colleague the Minister of Militia is present. I have not all the particulars I would like to have.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I would remind the minister that this sum was voted last year, and - that in February, 1904, plans of a drill shod [DOT]were displayed in my constituency. Surely if the plans were ready then, the minister might be able to give us dimensions and other particulars of the building now and tell us where it is to be erected. This drill shed is very much needed in the city of St. John. The old drill shed there, I believe, was the first, or among the first, of the drill sheds built in Canada. It is a wooden building, extremely leaky and it costs the government a great deal for repairs. Besides, it is absolutely inadequate for the force there. We have a regiment of artillery and a regiment of infantry. And, as the minister knows, St. John is one of the strategic points in Canada. It is the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway and one of the termini of the Intercolonial Railway and is at the mouth of an important river. No doubt, at no very distant day there must be a permanent, battery of artillery there. The force now existing in St. John is a very good force. The artillery has more than once, I believe, taken the highest efficiency prize in the whole artillery of Canada, and their infantry corps is a very creditable force in every respect. The men are enthusiastic, and they should be encouraged. But they feel very much discouraged indeed because of the want of proper armouries and a proper drill shed. The artillery, to which I myself have belonged for a number of years, were forced to build two armouries, one in the north end and one in the west eud of the city. I do not think any militia force in Canada should be imposed upon in this way. And I certainly think we should havb some explanation from the minister why, this vote having been given for the last two years, we hear nothing about the drill shed, and why a commencement has not been made in providing a building so much needed.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have asked that the item be allowed to stand, and I hope the hon. gentleman (Mr. Daniel) will not object. My reason for asking to have it stand is that 1 may be able to give him all the particulars he wishes. This is a matter that concerns the Militia Department, and I prefer that my colleague the Minister of Militia should be present when it is discussed.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The .tern stands.
St. John immigration detention building, $22,-
000.


George Eulas Foster: What is to be done there ?


Charles Smith Hyman: This is for a detention hospital at the port of St. John. The difli-culty up to the present moment has been the acquiring of a site. I have a memo, from Dr. Bryce, who, at the present moment, is trying to arrange for a proper site. It is intended to keep the expenditure within the estimates.


John Waterhouse Daniel: This, I take it, is for a new building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Is it now under contract ? Mr. HYMAN. No.


George Eulas Foster: There is a St. John Immigration building that has been under con-tiact.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a detention building, a little different from the ordinary immigration building.


John Waterhouse Daniel: This is a sort of immigration hospital ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes, something of that kind. When shiploads of immigrants come in, as I understand, the usual immigration sheds are used. But in all large bodies of immigrants, there are some who must be detained for examination or for reasons of health.


George Eulas Foster: Where is it proposed to put the building-in the city or on Partridge Island ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Dr. Bryce, who is the head of the department, informed me within the last two or three days that he intends to choose the site, but I do not know where it is to be.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It would be in the city.


Mr. OSLER.: This building is to be used in case of immigrants held for examination ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


Edmund Boyd Osler: If the government have not a building of that kind already, this ought to be erected without question, for, we are getting into this country a class of immigrants absolutely inferior to the class allowed to enter the United States. No matter what is said, as a matter of fact, they are coming in, and from here they are filtering into the United States. No time should be lost in providing the proper housing to care for and examining these men. If they are not all right, send them back. We are getting a lot of people who have no right to come here, especially men from southern Italy, who have contagious diseases. If the government has not proper quarantine build-1 ings in St. John, Halifax and Quebec to look

after these people, the money should not require to be re-voted, but should be spent at once.


Charles Smith Hyman: In Quebec they have a building for this purpose, erected, I think, last year. In the present estimates. I think, will be found a vote for a similar building in Halifax. This one is for St. John, and, as I have explained Dr. Bryce is there at the present time to choose the site. I have instructed the chief architect to call Dr. Bryce's attention to the matter immediately on his return, and we shall endeavour to proceed with the building at once.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Dr. Bryce was there last summer in plenty of time to have the building started. It is evidently intended not to make it an expensive building. If they have not the site, they know about where it is to go. There has been no delay, as far as I can gather, on the part of Dr. Bryce, but the delay appears to be on the part of the government. As the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) has stated, this is a building that is very much needed for the purpose of detaining the people who are physically unfit to be allowed to go loose in the country

people suffering from trachoma, favus and other contagious diseases. Such a building is now urgently needed. All this winter immigrants have been coming in through St. John ; and certainly we have heard no good reason why, when the money was voted last-year, the work has not been carried out.


Charles Smith Hyman: I know that Dr. Bryce has had some difficulty in acquiring a proper site. The very moment the site is decided upon, plans and specifications will be prepared. The Department of Public Works cannot prepare them until we know the character of the site.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Does this $22,000 cover the site and building'


Charles Smith Hyman: No. The estimate for a building of this character is $18,000, the estimate made by the chief architect, which, with contingencies, will amount to $22,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How large will the building be?


Charles Smith Hyman: We cannot tell until we first see what the site is. Dr. Bryce, who is at the head of that branch of the department, will give us two or three sites from which we will choose.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I thoroughly approve of this vote. But I think no time should be lost in erecting the building, because there is nothing more important in the interest of Canada than to have the immigrants well looked after at these stations. For the sake of $2,000 I do not think delay should be allowed in the erection of a proper detention building.


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand that in the
winter time all the immigrants come to St.


Edmund Boyd Osler: John, and I think the building will be ready for the coming winter.
St. John Quarantine Station, Partridge Island-hospital and two detention buildings, and acetylene gas plant and building ; also repairs to old buildings, water service, &c., $22,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Does this include any damages for the building that was blown down there last fall during the course of
,erection [DOT]>


Charles Smith Hyman: An arangement has been made with the contractor concerning the building which was blown down. We make no allowance for that.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Who is the architect for that building?


Charles Smith Hyman: The plans and specified- * tions are prepared in Ottawa. We have an agent of the department there, Mr. Water-bury, who looks after the local work.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I think the building must have been faulty, because it blew down during a gale, in the course of erection, and it was freely stated that the building was too narrow for the height, the stringers-if that is the technical term-were not strong enough, and if the architect had been more careful in drawing the building on safer lines it would not have blown down. It stands on an island exposed to every wind that blows, and in the winter time the storms from the Atlantic are pretty heavy.


Charles Smith Hyman: It need not necessarily have been the fault of the architect if the building was blown down. I think in this case it was the fault of the builder, the building was not properly protected. The contractor should have known that these storms were likely to occur. I understand he did not even board up the windows, but allowed the wind to rush into the building, and in that way the accident occurred. The partitions were not even put up. The contractor stands the loss.
Mr. FOSTER, I see that this is to be lighted with acetylene gas. How much does the plant cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: The plant complete for generating the gas, costs, $4,625. That was bought from the Acetylene Gas Construction Company of St. Catharines.


George Eulas Foster: Is that the only company in Canada?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not know of any other.


George Eulas Foster: Were tenders asked for an acetylene gas plant?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not think so.


George William Fowler: For the information of the minister, I can inform him that in the constituency I have the honour to represent there is a plant for the manufacture of acetylene gas, within twenty-five miles of

the city of St. John. So there can be no difficulty in getting a plant.


Charles Smith Hyman: This plant was arranged for before I came into the department. I understand that we do not require to ask for tenders where the price does not exceed $5,000. But it is necessary for the chief architect to certify that the price is fair and reasonable, and that was done in this case.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Was there a contract made with the company to supply acetylene gas?


Charles Smith Hyman: No. we have no contract.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Is that supplied by one company alone?


Charles Smith Hyman: I cannot give the information.


John Barr: Were tenders asked for ?


Charles Smith Hyman: That was the only tender.
Mr. FOWLER Wh't was the cost of this gas plant, and what the number of lights?


Charles Smith Hyman: $4,625, including the laying of the pipes; 500 lights, and 2,500 feet of piping.


Edmund Boyd Osler: In that contract is there
anjr obligation to get the gas from that company?	.


Charles Smith Hyman: No obligation of any kind.


George William Fowler: This was let without tender?


Charles Smith Hyman: No, it was not let without tender, but there was only the one tender.


Edmund Boyd Osler: As a matter of fact, is there only one firm supplying that in Canada?


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman from King's, N.B. (Mr. Fowler) has just told me there was another firm. I did not know that. But in a case of this kind where the use of acetylene has to be very carefully guarded, I think the department was justified in accepting the tender from a firm that is well acquainted with this business.


George William Fowler: There is a company manufacturing acetylene gas plant in New Brunswick who are thoroughly capable, and thoroughly equipped, and have met with great success. One of the gentlemen engaged in the manufacture of this plant is the inventor of an improvement on the ordinary. gas plant, which has been very successful indeed.


Edmund Boyd Osler: That sum, I understand, includes the manufacture of the gas?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes. includes the lights and the pipes.


Edmund Boyd Osler: When this discussion came up a year or two ago, I think it was understood that there was only one firm in Canada supplying acetylene carbide. Is th it the case still ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not know of any other company. I understand there is a company here supplying acetylene and a company in St. Catharines. I do not know whether they are the same.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have been told it is a
fact that the one company owns the three different establishments, the one here, the one in St. Catharines and the one at Shawe-uegan; and that Mr. Wilson, who was the original patentee, is in all these companies, and all the profits go to the same persons.


Charles Smith Hyman: I suppose the hon. gentleman knows that is the case.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am told by parties who ought to be well informed, one living in St. Catharines and another living in Woodstock and who knows Mr. Wilson very well that there is no competition in it and that the purchases which the government have made for lighting on the lakes and for their buoys have all been made from the same company without any competition and at their own prices.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have no knowledge as to what has been done by the Department of Marine and Fisheries in regard to this matter, but in regard to what the hon. gentleman says about the purchases of acetylene carbide, I do not think that he has the right to draw any conclusions at all. There has none been bought, there has no contract been made by the department for any acetylene and when the question comes up the acetylene will certainly be bought by the department at as low a figure as it is possible to buy it at.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think I have a perfect right, if I believe it to be a fact-


Charles Smith Hyman: But it is not a fact. '
Mr. SPROULE-that the only companies in Canada are under the control of the same combine and that the government have bought from them up to the present, and must buy from them in the future, unless they or other parties get the right to make acetylene gas, to assume that what has been done in the past is what will be done In this case. The hon. minister says that this contract was let before he took charge of the department. Who let the contract ? He ought to know that.


Charles Smith Hyman: The Department of Public Works.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Through the Minister of Public Works ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I presume through the Minister of Public Works.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And the Minister of Public Works is certainly one of the owners of these three concerns. That is the in-

formation I have and that is where it seems to be very objectionable.


Charles Smith Hyman: As a matter of fact I have not the least information in regard to the matter. It seems to be somewhat unfair that the hon. gentleman should undertake to pass a criticism of that kind. I do not know whether the hon. Minister of Public Works owns one dollar's worth of stock in a company of that nature. I have no knowledge of the matter at all. It seems to me under all the circumstances that the words of the hon. gentleman might have been just as well left unsaid.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am asking the hon. gentleman whether he knows it or not. He seems to be in a state of blissful ignorance which is very useful at times.


Gilbert White Ganong: As far as the price of carbide is concerned I think I can speak with some authority on that subject as I have used it for some years. There is but one price. it is sold under the Wilson patent so-called. It does not make any difference where you buy it there is just the one price, but as far as the machinery is concerned there are at least eight or ten reputable firms making carbide gas machines. I have been running a plant for the last three or four years of 125 lights, and I think the whole plant, outside of piping, cost me about $300. I do not know where the hon. gentleman is going to put the money.


Charles Smith Hyman: As the hon. gentleman has made some insinuations in regard to the matter I do not suppose he has the facts before him. As a matter of fact this includes not only what may be properly termed the plant with a capacity of 500 lights, but it includes the building, and the gasometer.


Gilbert White Ganong: The gasometer is a part of the machine.


Charles Smith Hyman: And in addition to that some 2,500 feet of piping.


Gilbert White Ganong: The piping is not very expensive.


George William Fowler: What is the size of the piping ?


Charles Smith Hyman: What is the size of the building ?


George William Fowler: Yes.


Charles Smith Hyman: 17x22.


George William Fowler: What is the diameter of the piping ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The supply pipe ?


George William Fowler: Yes.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have not the size of the pipe.


Mr SPROULE.: 


George William Fowler: The hon. minister is putting forward as a reason for the tremendous cost of this plant that there are 2,500 feet of piping. Then it is important for us to know what the size of this piping is because it varies in price as it varies in size. I have some knowledge of the cost of this acetylene gas plant and I believe that the cost of this is double what it should have been.


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course this includes also the excavation.


George William Fowler: That would cost about


Charles Smith Hyman: This includes excavation, a building 17 x 22, brick, hollow walls, stone foundation, with separate room


George William Fowler: You are going to bring in the whole cost of the building now ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Surely the hon. gentleman is not insinuating that I am giving information misleading to the committee. There are brick hollow walls on a stone foundation, gas piping 2,500 feet, meter 9 x 12 with a capacity of 1,000 cubic feet, the gasometer to be sunk in the ground, rock or concrete. The plant will be of sufficient capacity to furnish 50 lights, the gas piping to be laid from the gasometer to the various buildings.


George William Fowler: A building 17x22 one story high, and with a hollow wall-that is two bricks-would not cost more than $500 at the outside.	.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I am not objecting at all to the cost, because I think the men who own the patent are entitled to a very large profit, but when the government enter into a contract I think they should be very free in their information as to whether there is only one company owning the patent. I think the company are entitled to make a lot of money out of this, having worked for many years with it, but I also think that the government should give us the fullest information when they are dealing with this acetylene gas as to whether this is a close corporation and whether they must purchase at the price at which these men supply it. They should ascertain whether they are charged the same price that the acetylene company charge the railways. I do not think any one would object if the price paid by the government is the same as that paid by the ordinary large consumers. As there are apparently several contractors prepared to put in the plant, fair competition can evidently be had in this respect. I think that is all the House would want and I think that in this ease where there is apparently a close patent there should be the fullest information given, because in connection with this lighting we are going to spend a large amount of money.


Charles Smith Hyman: The department have never purchased a pound of acetylene. The Department of Marine and Fisheries has its estimates before the House and I have no doubt that the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries will give all the information that hon. gentlemen opposite require.


Edmund Boyd Osler: In connection with the contract for the plant if there are several firms building this plant then care should be taken to have tenders asked for from the different firms so that the owners of the patent should not have a cinch, on the machinery as well as on the gas.
Woodstock armoury and gun shed, $35,000.


George Eulas Foster: What about this ?


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a vote to complete the Woodstock armoury. There was a contract entered into with Mr. Fisher, of Woodstock, on the 25th October. The amount of the contract is $31,981.


George William Fowler: What Mr. Fisher is that?


Charles Smith Hyman: Mr.-Wm, Fisher. I have no knowledge of him.


George William Fowler: Is it not Williamson ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have just ' Wm.' in my notes. I presume it stands for William. 1 have no knowledge in regard to that matter. This is *o complete the work.


George William Fowler: What is the whole contract ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The amount of Mr. Fisher's contract is $31,981.


George William Fowler: What was paid for the lot ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand that there was a lot purchased for $6,000. That included a rink which was on the property. The roof and a considerable portion of the rink were used in the construction of the new building. Of course the plans and specifications showed that. Tenders were called for in the usual way by public advertisement and the lowest tender was accepted.
Mi\ FOWLER. Was an officer sent down there from the department to purchase the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George William Fowler: Who was the officer ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Two officers were sent down at different times-Mr. Shearer and Mr. Ogilvie.


George William Fowler: Who purchased the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Neither of them purchased the site. They reported to the department and the site was afterwards bought by the minister.


George William Fowler: Did you not have an option on the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have not the particulars here in regard to the matter. I take the information from the officers of the department.


George William Fowler: From whom was it
bought ?


Charles Smith Hyman: This is the Paxton, Baird and Rink property and a small lot purchased from Small & Fisher.


George William Fowler: How much for the Small lot ?


Charles Smith Hyman: $6,000 for the Rink property and $1,200 for the lot.


George William Fowler: That will make the
whole building cost about $40,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: I gave the amount of the contract, it is for $31,908. That is for the building. For the heating and wiring the estimate of the department is $3,500, and then there will be fitting up of the armouries $3,500, for renewing the sidewalks, &c., the '*estimate will bring the total up to about $50,000 including the site.


George William Fowler: Is the building going on?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes, this is to complete.


George William Fowler: Have you a clerk of works in charge ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George William Fowler: How long has he been in charge and what salary is he receiving.


Charles Smith Hyman: $3 a day, the usual price.


George William Fowler: How long has he been in charge.


Charles Smith Hyman: Since February 1.


George William Fowler: Of this present month ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George William Fowler: What was his former occupation ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have no knowledge of his former occupation.


George William Fowler: It is of importance that the department should know his former occupation.


Charles Smith Hyman: It may be.


George William Fowler: Not only may be but is. There was an instance in the town of Sussex where I reside, the principal town in King's, part of my constituency. The clerk of works in charge of an important woi'k was a tailor by occupation and was in active work as a tailor. He had no previous knowledge of building and was not a mechanic except with his needle, and yet he was put in charge of the construction of that building as clerk of works. He was paid $3, or I think it was $3.50 a day. This man must be a mechanic because he is only getting $3 a day whereas the other, on account of his superior qualifications as



41 tailor, got $3.50. The contract price for the building was $4,300, but this clerk of works, who was a tailor, drew $1,900 as clerk of works.


Charles Smith Hyman: I am not disputing the hon. gentleman, I have no knowledge of it.


George William Fowler: He will find if he refers, to the accounts that they will bear out the statement.


Charles Smith Hyman: He must have been a good tailor.


George William Fowler: He knew how to make a bill, which they say is a requisite of a good tailor.


George Eulas Foster: He evidently found his goose.


George William Fowler: Evidently there was lots of cabbage. It seems that the department forgot he was employed and he kept on drawing his pay all the time. The building occupied four months in construction but he was kept on for a year and a half. I hope the same mistake will not be made hi this case, and that is why I asked the minister what this person was. I would like the minister to find out from his officers.


Charles Smith Hyman: I suppose the hon. member from the constituency can give the information.


Mr. CARVELL.: I think I can give some information to the hon. member for King's (Mr. Fowler). I can tell him that the clerk is Mr. Drysdale, who has been a contractor for probably 25 or 30 years, and who, some 15 or 20 years ago, had charge of the building of the record building in Woodstock.1 He has been engaged in work of this kind all his lifetime. My hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) I would imagine objects to the construction of this building.


George William Fowler: Not at all.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am glad to hear him say so. Perhaps no item here to-night is more necessary than this armoury and drill hall in Woodstock, in the county of Carle-ton, N.B. which I represent. We have there the 67th Regiment, an eight company regiment, the Woodstock Field battery and the Brighton Engineers, the oldest in Canada. For want of accommodation the Woodstock bah tery is still armed with the old 9-pounder guns and will be until we can get proper accommodation for the new equipment. The Brighton engineers have never yet received their equipment, although two years ago the establishment was increased to almost double its former strength and given 28 horses or whatever the ordinary equipment of an engineer company is, and yet on account of lack of accommodation they are not able to receive the equipment. The 67th Regiment is still armed with the old Snider rifle for want of the accommodation Mr. FOWLER.
and four of five years ago it was felt by the department that they should build an armoury in Woodstock. The result was that in 1902 the vote was placed in the estimates for an armoury at Woodstock and then it was only intended to have an armoury. A site was purchased for $1,250 and before that site was purchased the Department of Militia and Defence took pains to find out the value of the land from independent sources, and it has never been questioned in this House or I think, in the country, that the price paid was reasonable and just. It was afterwards decided by the department that this building would not be large enough to meet the requirements of the militia under the new conditions. A battery of field artillery formerly consisted of 6 guns and 6 ammunition wagons ; to-day it would be 6 guns and 24 ammunition wagons besides forage and store wagons. At that time the accommodation of the engineers would not occupy a space of more than 30 or 40 feet square, but now it would take four times that space, and therefore it was decided to be inadvisable to erect a building according to the plans, although tenders had been called for. The department then looked for another site and they found that they could buy the rink property for a reasonable price and that the owners were willing to take the other property in part payment. The result was that the Rink property was purchased, tenders were called for and the contract was let. I can assure the committee and the hon. member for King's that we will have ample accommodation for all the militia in the county. We will have, besides, accommodation for the Woodstock Field battery and the engineers, a drill hall which will be 60 x 100 feet. It will be a modern building, the front part of which will be 30 x 100 feet, will be solid brick, and when completed will be a credit to the department and to the town of Woodstock, and will fill a long felt want for the militia of the county of Carleton. I can assure the committee that the clerk of works is actively engaged, that the contractor is drawing materials to the ground every day and that there can be no objection to this clerk of works. I do not think any gentleman in this House would find fault with the construction of the building.


George William Fowler: I was not raising any objection, I was simply asking if the department, having made a mistake in Sussex by appointing a tailor to superintend the erection of a building, were guarding against the occurrence of a similar mistake in this case. The hon. gentleman should be thankful to me for giving him an opportunity to fire oft_that battery of artillery with which lie waST loaded up.


Samuel Hughes: The hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat (Mr. Car-vell) has pointed out that this is for an eight

company regiment. He seems to fail to recognize that these companies keep their arms at company headquarters and will not keep them in the drill shed. He pointed out that the Brighton engineers have no accommodation for their materials. I presume that the engineers' material and the guns of the battery can be kept in the drill shed, but I want the minister to explain these tilings to the House. I understood there was going to be an agreement made between the Department of Militia and the Department of Public Works as to some set form for these regimental or comnty armouries. If they are all to cost $35,600 or $50,000 I shall be delighted that the one for Victoria shall cost that sum. However, I hope that the Departments of Pubic Works and Militia will keep in mind the principle that these buildings should not be made too large at one point and too small at another, but should be commodious at all points and of uniform quality, so that there could be no fault found in any part. Is there any ground in connection with this drill shed other than the site of the shed itself ? How many acres adjoin it


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand there is no ground that could be used for drilling purpose.


Samuel Hughes: That is a serious mistake. There should be grounds outside in connection with all these as in the old plans. There should be a large area. The only time the regiment will form up there is when it happens to go to or come from the annual camp. Then it should certainly have a large area outside for a parade ground.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are two pieces of land in the rear of the building which could be purchased a a reasonable price, and I Will take the hint given by my hon. friend and ask the department to purchase them.


Mr.   SAM@: HUGHES I do not know the political stripe of the hon gentleman, but I do know that the Woodstock, N.B., battery gave a good account of itself on all occasions when under fire in South Africa, and the men were several times in action.


Andrew B. Ingram: What would those two lots be worth ?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: One is about 30 by 80 feet and the other about 80 or 90 "feet square, and we have an offer to purchase them for $1,600.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the size of the lot on which this rink was placed?


Charles Smith Hyman: 100 feet by 160 feet.
that a larger space immediately in the rear can be got for about $1,600.



[Stage Direction]
__,	

 i thmk that the hon.
member will agree that there is a great cut-ferenee between a lot fronting on one of the principal streets of the town and two pieces of land in the rear of the building that could not be sold for anything else. The lot in question is within 300 feet of the post * Ce is next but one to the town building. The town has 4,000 inhabitants; its postal revenue is the fifth in the province, and it is one of the most important commercial and manufacturing towns of the province. The land on which the rink stands could not be bought in the open market for less than $2,500 or $3,000.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir WILLIAM MU-LOCK moved the adjournment of the House.
Robert Laird Borden: What government business will be taken up to-morrow?


William Mulock: The Minister of Agriculture will proceed with his Bill respecting the census, after which we shall continue with the estimates of the Minister of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, February 15, 1905.