1905-06-09

NEW MEMBER.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that he had received from the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery a certificate of the election of Mr. Louis Auguste Carrier for the electoral district of L6vis, in the province of Quebec.

[Stage Direction]
Report of dividends remaining unpaid, unclaimed balances, unpaid drafts and bills of exchange in chartered hanks of the Dominion of Canada for five years and upwards, prior to December 31, 1904.-Hon. W. S. Fielding.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 173) respecting the St. Maurice Valley Railway Company.-Mr. Bureau.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called,
Mr. HENRI BOURASSA (Labelie).: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to give a word of personal Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
explanation. I notice by reading the report of yesterday's debates that in replying to a question that was put to me by the hon. the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden), I gave a reply which certainly entitled the hon. gentleman to say later on in the debate, while I was absent, that I had stated something that led to an absurd conclusion. 1 see by reading the report that in fact I had not properly understood the question of the hon. gentleman. He asked me :
Suppose there was no majority of either Protestants or Roman Catholics in the district ; suppose there was one-third Protestant, one-third Roman Catholic and one-third Jews and Mormons ; does he not think that the word ' majority ' in section 11 would enable the majority of these people to establish a school ?


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: No, I do not think so.
I had evidently misunderstood the question of the hon. gentleman. I was dealing at that time with the distinction that was established with regard to denominational schools, and meant to say that there was no other denominational school referred to in section 11 of the Act of 1S75 but Protestant schools and Catholic schools, and I understood the hon. gentleman's question to mean that in case a majority would be composed partly of Protestants aud partly of Mormons, they could establish any other denominational schools. Naturally the context to my remarks later on proved that I acknowledged the right of any majority to have a public school, hut, as far as denominational schools are concerned, it would be either a Protestant or a Catholic school. Of course, I could have corrected this iu the report of the debate so as to make my thought clear, but I considered it would be at injustice to the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) on account of the further remarks he made later on, so I prefer making this explanation and leaving the text as it is, I hope this will he satisfactory to him.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Certainly.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Steamship subventions-for a line or lines of steamers to run between St. John and Halifax or either, and the West Indies and South America, $80,700.
['Stand.\nOrder allowed to stand.']
Mr. DANIEL.: As I understand it, tenders have been called for in regard to this service, which will be due, I think, about the middle of this month.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: No ; the tenders have been invited, and are now in.


John Waterhouse Daniel: They have been received ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I am aware that the contractor for this service has expressed a desire to leave out the port of St. John and confine the maritime port to the port of

Halifax. Our business people in St. John have been considerably disturbed over that matter, and I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether this line will in future continue to make its trips to St. John as well as to Halifax, as it has been doing in the past.


Mr. FIELDING.: The contractor who has been doing the service for some years has made a proposal that some change be made in the ports of call, both as respects the West Indies and the Canadian end of the service. The matter is still under consideration, and at this moment has not been finally determined.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The minister cannot say at present, then, how the line will be conducted in the future, with regard to the inclusion of the port of St. John ?


William Stevens Fielding: A proposal has been made which would involve the dropping of the port of St. John and making some arrangement for carrying the St. John freight by rail to Halifax, as one alternative. That suggestion is under consideration, and up to this moment nothing has been done with regard to it. If that arrangement should be made before this item is finally passed, it would necessitate a change in the wording of the item. For the present we are following the same wording as before.


Mr. FOSTER.: My hon. friend will see that he cannot ask for a change in the wording of the item unless he has first made up his mind what the policy is to be. If this item is voted, it will be impossible to cut out St. John. It would seem to me to be much better, if the minister has not made up his mind as to the policy, to let the item stand until he has, because I imagine that it would raise a pretty brisk discussion were he to propose to cut off the service to the port of St. John and leave the St. John shippers to run their freight around to Halifax in whatever way they could. It would be a radical change, and I think it had better be decided by the government before they ask for the vote.


William Stevens Fielding: I think the wording of the item would admit of the change if the change should be determined on, although when I spoke a moment ago I did not contemplate that. What I thought was that if a change in the wording were required, it could be made in the Supply Bill before the items were finally passed. What the tenderers propose is either to carry out the service as in the past, or as an alternative, In order to have a more rapid and more frequent service to the West Indies, to have the steamers call at Halifax only, and to have the St. John freight sent to Halifax by rail. Upon that no judgment has yet been come to by the government. If there is a desire to hold the item over, I do not 228
suppose the Prime Minister would have any objection; but we are at present taking the vote with the same wording as in the past.


Mr. AMES.: Have any offers for this service been made by other steamship companies than Pickford & Black ? Have the Royal Mail Line or the Elder-Dempster Company during the past six months entertained the possibility or made an offer for this service ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, the Royal Mail Line, to which my hon. friend refers, did not make any proposal.


Herbert Brown Ames: I would like to say a few words as to this service, because the manner in which it is at present carried on is unsatisfactory, to the merchants of the city of Montreal at least. Either that service should be made purely a mail service and paid for accordingly, or else it should be made a truly representative freight service, which would collect all the freight that could be taken from Canada, the inland as well as the external ports, with a view to the expansion of the business with the West Indies. The merchants of Montreal are of the opinion, and I think then-opinion can be very readily endorsed by facts, that if the terminus of this service could be made at Montreal, in summer at least, a very large amount of freight could be sent to the West Indies. That would not necessitate cutting out the maritime province ports, it would only necessitate adding Canadian ports in order to cieate a larger amount of business. I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Finance to a communication on this subject from the Corn Exchange of Montreal, which I think has been forwarded to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. On the 10th of December last the Montreal Corn Exchange passed the following resolution :
Resolved, That understanding that the term of the present subsidy for a steamship service between Canada and the West Indies expires in June next, the committee of management of the Montreal Corn Exchange Association urges upon the government the great desirability of adopting measures for the establishment of a new service to the West Indies, especially to Bar-badoes, Trinidad and British Guiana, the steamers to run from Montreal in summer and the maritime ports in winter ;
That the West Indies import from the United States a large amount of products and goods which Cam*da could supply, and that, moreover, much of the present limited export of Canadian goods to the West Indies is now handled by United States Arms, owing to the frequent steamship communication between those islands and New York and other United States ports ;
That the circumstance that so many steamship lines find freight between American ports and the West Indies would seem to show that a line from Montreal would secure enough business to warrant its establishment ;



That there is no doubt that the reason that Canada is exporting so little to the West Indies is the lack of direct steamship communication from Montreal, the present service from the maritime ports being too far removed from -Montreal to ensure its successful operation in the summer months.
In connection with this resolution a statement was prepared and submitted to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, in order to show the freight possibilities of the port of Montreal for such a line ; and from this statement I make the following citation :
Canada's trade with the West Indies is not as extensive as it was thirty years ago, although the trade of the West Indies has increased enormously in that time. I wisti to cite from ' Industrial Canada,' which, as is well known, is the official organ of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, which body has given considerable, study to this matter. Here is what they say of the Pick-ford & Black Line, and I think it is worthy of consideration :
The Pickford & Black boats that call at only the important Islands have nine days' delay in
Statement for the year 1903-4 of the principal imports into British Guiana, Barbadoes and Trinidad of products that are produced in Canada.
-	Flour.	Meats.	Lumiber.	Butter.	Grain.Brls. 210,226 52,664 30,725 231,160	Brls. 10,000 Lbs. 2,490,000 495,(00	Feet. 7.000.	000 4,800,000 1.000.	000 11,999,000	Lbs. 497.000 403,505 30,275 654.000	Bush.[DOT]	20,000 23,046 201,525
Trinidad 						
					
In addition, there are large importations of lard, oil cake, boots and shoes, live stock, machinery, cement, hardware, cottons and potatoes.
While only four of the islands are mentioned above, many of the others might be made ports of call If trade offered. There are no stocks held at St. John and Halifax from which to make shipments, and there being no steamers from Montreal to the West Indies, Ontario shippers prefer to ship by way of New York rather than via St. John or Halifax ; hut with a ilne from Montreal such shipments would naturally come here, the more especially that advantage could be taken of cheap water rates from the west to Montreal.
Last year raw sugar to the aggregate value of $13,000,000 was Imported into Canada by way of New York, refiners preferring to import by that route rather than by St. John or Halifax, because they can get better railway rates and quicker dispatch ; but with a line running to Montreal these importations would of course come direct.
Now, I make these citations because this is a matter that has been very seriously considered by the Montreal Corn Exchange Association. The memorial was presented to the Department of Trade and Commerce fully six months ago, and I hope the memorial was considered, because I think the matter is well worth the attention of the department. The present service is wholly inadequate and unsatisfactory, and it seems that the time has come when the service should be either a mail service and paid for at mail-subsidy rates, or it should be made an adequate freight service and paid for accordingly. An article in ' Industrial Canada ' is authority for the statement that Mr. AMES.
Demerara before starting on the homeward trip, and nine days' delay in St. John or Halifax before starting again for the islands. The explanation is that the boats are under contract to carry malls to the islands at stated intervals, and the smaller islands are passed by to give the more important ones a faster service.
I am informed that if the delay at each end of the right trip was done away with, the existing boats could give a ten days' service to the large islands at least and a twenty days' service to the other, which would be a decided improvement, but it is plain that until we have a weekly service to all the islands, we will be handicapped in our competition with the United States manufacturers, unless we are able to secure equally favourable freight rates via United States ports.
And again, in this same magazine, 'Industrial Canada,' in the issue of April, 1904, we have another reference to this Pickford & Black service, written by Mr. Cooper, the secretary of the Manufacturers' Association, who made a special trip to the West Indies for this purpose :
There is one great obstacle to a growth of direct trade ; I refer to the inferior steamship conneotion. While due credit must be given to the company now operating, for the energy they have shown in developing the trade, it must be pointed out in the interest of the public generally, that the West Indian merchants regard the Canadian line (in the words of one gentleman whose opinion I esteem highly) as ' running to little purpose.' For each trip to Demerara and return the company is paid by the imperial and Canadian governments about $4,S85. and from all I have learned in the West Indies, if that amount cannot secure a more frequent and superior service, with cold storage accommodation for fruits, it would be advisable to

follow the example of the United States government and pay out the subsidy in the form of a fee for carrying mails. There would at least he competition where at present there is none. The chief results of the present contract under which the subsidy is paid are (1) to prevent the establishment of a competing line ; (2) to make the route a slow one for the principal ports, Barbadoes, Trinidad and Demerara, by forcing the boats to call at all the northern British islands. At all events it is hopeless to expect the boats now running to compete with the larger and more modern ones running from New York with a comparatively smaller coal consumption.
The present service does not do the work properly, but it takes enough of the work to make it impossible for a competing line to live and thrive. In the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce published in 1904 you will find this comment on the transportation facilities in connection with Jamaica :
Messrs. Bickford & Black's steamship ' Beta ' has been making her usual monthly trips with regularity as regards time, and as far as this end is concerned has accorded every satisfaction in keeping with the terms of the contract. Good care seems to be taken in handling the cargo both ways and consignees' claims when arising, are usually liberally met.
When all the above, however, has been said, there is still a persistent wail regarding inadequacy of the service. And this will certainly be more keenly felt in the coming year when the demand for space will be decidely multiplied. However, with the coming of the new contract it is confidently expected that all defects and drawbacks will be remedied.
Now, if it is the intention of the government to renew the present contract with Messrs. Pickford & Black, making no modification further than to render it less efficient than it is to-day by cutting out the port of St. John and leaving only the port of Halifax, in my opinion the government is making a mistake. It seems probable that this trade with the West Indies can be worked up to a considerable business and one that will be valuable for Canada. It would seem worth while for the government to ascertain whether a first-class service of proper frequency and calling not only at the maritime ports but at the head of navigation on the St. Lawrence, could not be created which will give satisfaction to the exporters and merchants of the Dominion.


William Stevens Fielding: There is no doubt that if you like to pay for it you can get such a service as my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) suggests. You can get the ' Lueania ' and the ' Campania ' in this service if you are willing to pay the price. But, being Finance Minister, I have to sometimes consider the financial side of these questions.


George Eulas Foster: Just what amount of money is being paid ?


William Stevens Fielding: The amount we pay for this service is $65,700.
228}


George Eulas Foster: What does Great Britain pay ?


William Stevens Fielding: Great Britain pays an equal sum.


George Eulas Foster: A total of $130,000 ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes. That is a very considerable sum of money


Herbert Brown Ames: For what you get for it.


William Stevens Fielding: Well, my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) is a business man and knows something of the effect of the law of supply and demand. One hearing my hon. friend's remarks would naturally think that steamship companies should be running after this grand privilege. But, instead of that, you find that Messrs. Pickford & Black are practically the only company willing to do the work at that price. So, it does not seem that we are paying too much when they are allowed to hold a monopoly and, when the opportunity of competition comes, nobody is ready to take over the work.


Herbert Brown Ames: Has the hon. minister made any endeavour to secure a service which shall call at the port of Montreal ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, we publicly advertised for tenders for this service in accordance with the practice of the past. My hon. friend argues that it is desirable that we should have communication with Montreal. In what I say, I do not wish to be understood as arguing against that. But I am afraid it will not be found convenient to combine this service with the one that exists. The paper the hon. gentleman quoted from points out that there is considerable delay, that these steamers call at a number of places and make a rather long voyage. That is one of the difficulties compared with the New York steamers. After some correspondence, it was proposed by the contractors- and it is a point we have not yet decided upon-to shorten the voyage by cutting out some of these ports of call, thereby creating v more efficient service for the remainder of the ports.


George Eulas Foster: What average speed do they make ?


William Stevens Fielding: About ten knots, I am informed.


George Eulas Foster: All the voyage ?


William Stevens Fielding: The speed at sea is about ten knots, and against that there is the delay at the islands. Undoubtedly, calling at many islands is a serious trouble. The principal markets of the West Indies may be described as Trinidad, Barbadoes and Demarara, British Guiana, which is on the mainland, though we commonly .speak of it as the West Indies. These are the principal markets. But there are a number of smaller inlands which have some little trades which we naturally desire to cultivate, and)

the British government being parties to the contract, also desire that the smaller islands shall be considered. We have been; working in harmony with them in a policy which would develop trade in the smaller markets as well as in the larger ones.


George Eulas Foster: Do the islands give anything?


William Stevens Fielding: There is no local subsidy at all. But the point of view of the British government is not perhaps exactly the same as ours; ours would be purely the commercial view, the imperial government would have another view besides. Even though the islands might have a small amount of business, and though for ordinary commercial reasons the contractors might be willing to drop an island, it is conceivable that the British government, for imperial reasons, might feel that the little is-1 land should not be ignored. . That creates some little difficulty, and makes necessary some mutual negotiations in order to maintain co-operation between the British government and ourselves. I fear that if we started a line of steamers from Montreal and attempted to call at maritime ports' as well, we would but add to the disadvantage under which we now labour in our competition with New York. The voyage to a distant point, say Georgetown in British Guiana, would be long, and we would find ourselves entirely beaten in the race with the New York steamers. I am inclined to think that if it becomes necessary to den velop trade in the line suggested by my hon. friend, it would almost involve a separate service. We have been doing something in the direction of trade from Montreal this year by making provision for a line from Montreal to Cuba and Mexico, calling at Halifax, and that is one of the things that we have now in hand, and which it is hoped will be realized. I think if we were to insist on this line of steamers starting from Montreal, calling at the maritime ports, at one or both, and then go on to the West Indies, we would find ourselves at a great disadvantage in the competition; and that would lead to the conclusion that if there is a prospect of business at Montreal to the degree the hon. gentleman suggests. it would necessitate an independent service during the'summer months.


John Waterhouse Daniel: This West India service originated quite a few years ago. It was begun by St. John people and started from the port of St. John, and it is really a St. John conception entirely. The service up to the present time has been regularly proceeding to Mid from St. John. Lately the board of trade of the city of St. John made some complaints, and sent a memorial to the government in regard to this matter. They referred to the delays, which have also been referred to by the hon. member from St. Antoine Division, Montreal (Mr. Ames),


William Stevens Fielding: and the great number of lay days. They think that is a serious objection to carrying on successfully the business. It does appear to me that one of the difficulties with regard to this service is that the contractor, instead of fitting his steamers in size and accommodation to the business, is rather trying to make the business conform in size to the equipment of his steamers. The memorial which the board of trade sent to the government requested that the government, in asking for tenders, should ask for an improved service, with modern steamers, with greater capacity, from 3,500 to 4,000 tons, with a maximum speed of 13 knots an hour, with fan ventilation and ample cold storage for carrying perishable cargoes. We know that to do a successful business with a tropical country like the West Indies, steamers should be equipped with proper cold storage and fan ventilation facilities, not only on account of those products and commodities which we export, but also on account of those commodities which we import from the West Indies, especially fruits and things of that kind. We could only expect to do a successful business by having vessels properly arranged for that business. From the standpoint of the members of the board of trade in St. John, they complain very bitterly of the number of lay days at Halifax, and they state that in consequence of the large number of lay days, perishable goods on these steamers were injured very materially, and to that fact it is due to a large extent that we are not doing that extensive flour export business from St. John which would otherwise be done. That business is going to New York, whereas, with an efficient and proper service, the export of goods from the port of St. John would be very materially increased indeed. As a matter of fact, that business has increased in the port of St. John during the last three years from 17 to 24 per cent, and it is increasing all the time. The complaints that our people make there is largely on account of the unnecessary delays which this steamer makes in the maritime ports, instead of going rapidly to the port of destination. I hope that the government will not entertain any idea of throwing the port of St. John out of this business. I think it would be a mistake in so far as the business of this country is concerned. Not merely the commercial business of handling which accrues to the port of St. John would be increased, but if a proper service were inaugurated, the exports from that port coming from the west as well as from the immediate vicinity, would be very much increased. Now the contractor makes arrangements in order to increase the exports by his line from the port of Halifax, to pay the excess of freight on goods coming from the north shore of the province of New Brunswick to Halifax, which goods, on account of the

shorter haul and less freight, would nature lly find their port of export at St. John. The contractor ihimself pays the difference, and gets that business carried over the line to the port of Halifax ; whereas, under ordinary circumstances, that business would tind its way to the port of St. John and thereby increase the total export business from that port. However, if the hon. minister is not in a position to state to-day what the mind of the government is with regal'd to that matter, since I am very much interested in it as representing the city of St. John, I would ask that this matter stand over, and not be considered until the government has made up its mind with regard to what policy they will pursue. I think that is not asking too much.


William Stevens Fielding: There can be no objection to the item standing over. But I do not think it is profitable that we should enter to-day into the conflicting statements that have been made with regard to the amount of business that is offered at St. John. I offer no opinion, except to say that the contractors made representations as to the amount of business they had been able to get at 'St. John, and their representations do not harmonize with the information which my hon. friend representing that city has received. However, I did not think it was worth while our discussing it to-day, because we desire to hold the matter over so as to allow us to look into 'both sides of the question, and I will undertake to say that it will be thoroughly investigated before any decision is reached. In regard to the efficiency of the service it is well to remember that if you are calling at a number of islands there will be inevitable delay. You may get a vessel that in some respects will be better at sea, but not better suited to the different ports, and perhaps not so well, because, if you have a larger vessel with a heavier draught, she cannot approach many of these islands. You could not make some of these islands except with the assistance of lighters.


George Eulas Foster: That is the case now.


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) has been over the ground and so have I, and we know' the difficulties of it. However, we all have a common desire that we shall encourage our AVest India trade as much as possible and if by a separate service by the St. Lawrence, or if by any arrangement w'e can make with this present line of steamers, we can get a better service I am sure the government will be no less desirous than my hon. friends opposite to accomplish it. Although we are told that this service is not a very efficient one, and that this is a liberal subsidy, we must still bear in mind that there is nobody chasing after it. Messrs. Piekrord & Black are not making a very large sum out of it ; in fact, they have been having a very uphill fight.
My hon. friend is correct in saying that the service originated in St. John, but my information is that the contractors who undertook it from St. John found it so unprofitable that they were glad to get rid if it. It has not been a very big bonanza for anybody. There is not a great deal of money in it.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The parties who originated the business at St. John undertook to do it with unsuitable vessels-vessels not sufficient for it in any way and the consequence was that they did not make it a success. The amount of business which this line has done during the past year is over a quarter of a million-$268,000 odd, I think is the amount.


George Eulas Foster: In and out ?


John Waterhouse Daniel: In and out. I am quite aware of the case of the contractors. Air. Piekford supplied me with a complete statement of the case which he laid before the government, and 1 know the position he takes, but I think if the hon. minister will allow this item to stand it would be better.


Air. A. A. WRIGHT.: Before the meeting of the congress of the Chambers of Commerce which was held recently in the city of Montreal the matter of trade with the AVest India Islands came up before our board of trade and a delegation was appointed, of which I was one to go to Alon-treal to meet the representatives of the AVest India Islands, particularly those from the island of Trinidad and see if we could not arrange to send them goods from our own section of the country. AVe had an interview with them and ascertained the tilings which we thought we could ship to the AVest Indies. Among other things we thought we could ship cheese, which we produce in large quantities, butter, flour and what they call bread. Perhaps I might inform the House that what they call bread is what we call shanty biscuit or sea biscuit, the flour to manufacture which we could supply. AVe could also send them pot barley which they use in very considerable quantities, boots and shoes and that kind of thing. AVe found among the other things that they required different grades of flour-low grade and high grade. It is sometimes very important that we should know where we can send our low grade flour which is not very easily sold sometimes. AVe can always sell the finest grade of flour, but sometimes, if we have a grade which is not very good, to get a market for that is desirable and important. After the representatives of the AVest India1 Islands had gone away we had considerable correspondence with them. I conducted the correspondence myself. I think the time is not far distant when we shall undertake to ship goods from our section of the country to the AVest Indies. But, our people have always urged

upon me that they did not like to go to the trouble of sending goods all the way to Halifax and shipping them from there. They thought there should be a service from Montreal so that they could undertake the shipment from there. I would like to draw the attention of my bon. friend the Minister of Finance to this fact too : There has been a great deal of difficulty in having our beet sugar factories maintained in western Ontario, and in fact in any part of the Dominion of Canada because they could not get a sufficient supply of beets to run these factories long enough to make it pay. My hon. friend from East Kent (Mr. Gordon) who is interested in a beet root sugar factory at Wallaceburg undertook to solve that difficulty. When the supply of beets became exhausted he brought in raw sugar from the West India Islands and has been using that instead of the beets and making a complete success of it. If we could get a supply of raw sugar from the West Indies and in this way secure facilities for sending our own goods back in the same vessels, I think it would be an advantage and I do not see why it could not be carried out. I wish to direct the hon. minister's attention to the fact, and when this question comes up for discussion again I may have something further to say upon it. If there is anything I can do which will assist my hon. friend from Montreal (Mr. Ames) I shall be glad to do it.


George Eulas Foster: Although the hon. Minister of Finance is going to keep the item over, probably, as we have commenced the discussion of it, it might be as well to say what we have to say to-day. I acknowledge, in the first place, the difficulties of establishing a satisfactory service with the West Indies. They have been greater probably than they are now. It may be that the late changes in the sugar business, in its aspect towards the governments in Europe, has made the conditions a little more favourable in that one direction, but favourable as they may be made in that way there are some very great difficulties in having a satisfactory line and establishing a satisfactory commerce with the West Indies. We have to take that in as the first idea, but right alongside of that we ought to put this idea : I do not know that there is any section of the world with which we ought to be, comparatively speaking more anxious to establish and sustain a good trade than with the West Indies. For various reasons. They form a counterpart to our temperate and cooler zones, they are kindred countries and the future may hold within its possibilities a union between Canada and these British West Indies of some kind or another, and ought to hold without doubt the possibility of closer and better trade relations as between the two. So, we ought not to be discouraged by difficulties to the point of discontinuing Mr. A. A. WRIGHT.
a service which does not seem to be as satisfactory7 as it might be. On the other hand you must take this into consideration : We give now $132,000 or $133,000 a year as a subsidy7. Everybody will admit that it is better to give a larger amount for a proper service with the view7 of establishing something which shall be self-supporting, or which will gradually grow7 to be selfsupporting than fritter away7 the very large sum of $130,000 a year and make a fair or reasonable progress towards a self-supporting service. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable to offer a larger amount for a proper service which would stimulate trade, w7hich would gather legitimate trade between the two countries wffiich is now carried by the United States of America and make the service self-sustaining in the end.
I think w7e ought to very carefully look over the whole matter. I do not want to find fault w7ith any department, but I know w'hat most of the departments chronically suffer from. They get into routine habits; w7e vote the money and they pay it out, and not very much activity is displayed towards bettering or even keeping track of these services. We are paying out over $2,000,000 yearly on steamship subsidies of this kind, and earlier in the session I found on inquiry that the Department of Trade and Commerce could not give to the House a statement of wTiat is done in the way of traffic by these different lines to which we are paying so much of the country's money every year. I made a plea then that the department should keep its hand on every subsidized service and be prepared to lay on the table of the House a report as to what these steamship services were doing in the way of developing trade, especially with a view7 of ascertaining w7hether it is ever possible to make themselves sustaining or whether the money had not better be given towards some prospective self-sustaining services. We cannot discuss this matter intelligently now ; w7e do not know the amount of commerce carried on between Canada and particular ports in the West Indies so that we may determine whether some of these that are useless should not be cut out. What I am pleading for is, that we should have a thorough supervision, so that parliament could have from the department all the information possible with regard to the expenditure of this $2,000,000. You cannot carry on such a service between Canada and a tropical country like the West Indies unless you have modern machinery in your vessels. Outside of salt fish, you may say that almost everything we export to the West Indies is of a perishable nature. Any one w7ho has been in the West Indies know7s how quickly things perish there, not only to satisfy the capacious appetites of the coloured population but from the efforts of the torrid heat. We will find it a very hard task with slow- vessels and no

refrigerating machinery to do any kind of a decent trade with the West Indies. If it is worth while doing this it is worth doing well, and if we do it well we must pay for it. Sooner or later I want to see every one of these services self-sustaining, or cut off. I have had a talk with Mr. Pickford, not to any very great extent ; my hon. friend has had all Mr. Pickford's figures and has gone through them. I understand the point of view of the contractors and they have a great deal in their favour, but I hope the minister will not make any change at present. I would suggest something like this :	Let us utilize the good common sense we have in this country. If the department would gather together representatives of the Board of Trade of St. John Halifax, Montreal, Quebec, Toronto and the western cities, and go into this whole question either here or in Montreal, with a view of solving how best we can increase our trade with the West Indies, I think good v ould result. That is the first point; there is another point which ought to come subsidiary to that hut which very often has taken precedence of it, and that is the question. Can anything be done for a particular town or particular city ? I confess to a weakness with regard to particular cities just the same as other people, but the prime idea should be as to what is best to make greater the commerce of the entire country. Then, as far as you can, utilize such place as will best suit that plan. But I do not think we should lean altogether to the sentimental idea in reference to a city which wants a steamship service. The department should next year keep its hand on this and other services and find out exactly what we are doing ; which are the ports that give most return and what they give, and then in this conference of level-headed and wideawake business men a conclusion could be come to as to the service between Canada and the West Indies which would be best adapted to our needs. If it is impossible for us ever to have a self-sustaining traffic between the two countries, then perhaps we should reconsider our policy. If the conclusion should be arrived at that not only for trade reasons, but for national and imperial reasons we should persevere in this policy, then let us persevere along proper lines! These are some thoughts that have been running through my mind ; I have not given expression to them in the way of captious criticism for I would be very sorry to see the service between Canada and the West Indies fail. Its record has not been as good as it ought to be. There may be some reasons why we have not a larger commerce now than we had 15 years ago, but it is not very encouraging, and it ought make us pause to consider whether or not we can do better.


Herbert Brown Ames: One last word before leaving this subject. I should like very much if the government would take into serious
consideration the idea of endeavouring to obtain offers from some responsible steamship company for a service between Montreal and the principal commercial points in the West Indies. I believe that the amount of trade now offered and that will offer at Montreal for a service of this kind, and which now passes to American ports, would be sufficient to induce responsible lines to put on a good service. For a great many years we have been carrying on via Halifax and St. John this service to the West Indies, and our steamers have been stopping at many points at which there is little more than mail matter to be left off. That is an accommodation train service accomplished by boats that have been in this trade for 30 or 40 years. It seems to me that the time for such a service is about over, and that we should now consider the establishment of an express service from the principal shipping port of the Dominion to the most important shipping ports of the West Indies. Just by way of ascertaining what may be done in that respect would it not be advisable for the department to put themselves in communication with some possible tenderers to ascertain whether a new line of this character might not be established largely as a commercial enterprise without such immense assistance from the government as the minister has intimated may toe necessary ?


Mr. WM. ROCHE (Halifax).: and that is the cause of the falling which was reprobated by the member for Montreal, to endeavour to secure markets and also to endeavour to obtain services through all these islands. Although the speed of the ships may not be very great, they are adapted to the carriage of the articles. If you have boats of high speed you run extreme risk, and also the increase in the carriage of freight is material. The next desideratum is to have the nearest port of shipment, and we all know that Halifax is the nearest point in Canada to any other part of the world.


William Stevens Fielding: The discussion is a very Interesting one, and I am sure will prove advantageous to the Minister of Trade and Commerce in considering the action to be taken. I may say that some portion of the information which the member for North Toronto suggests is already in the possession of the government, and we could, if necessary, furnish statistics showing the volume of business annually done by these particular vessels. But if it is thought well to have that branch of the departmental work made broader and fuller in the future, I have no doubt we will be able to get somewhat fuller statistics and interesting information. There is one other thought worth remembering, not as a reason for doing nothing, but to enable us to realize the difficulties, and that is that the West Indies are not large customers for the class of products which Canada is most anxious to make. Canada is making a high grade of goods, but the West Indies, after all, can only be a limited market for that class of goods, because, as is well known, the bulk of the population of the West Indies are coloured people who are not very wealthy, and they are not seeking for Manitoba hard wheat and the finest bacon and cheese which Canada makes. There is a limited demand for these things, but if we are to have a very extended trade in the West Indies for these goods, I am afraid we will have to work down instead of up and be prei>ared to sell goods cheaper. That is a difficulty in the way ; the bulk of the people there are poor. There is a smaller number of wdiite people who desire a better class of goods, but the merchant who sends goods to the West Indies is made aware of the fact that the people are generally poor. Many shippers will tell you that it is not profitable to send goods to the West Indies, because the people will not pay the prices they want. I suppose we are only human ; and if they desire cheaper goods, we will find some one in Canada to make them.


Robert Laird Borden: Where Is their business done now ?


William Stevens Fielding: Largely in the United States.


George Eulas Foster: They must make the goods
cheaper.


William Roche: 


William Stevens Fielding: They do in some cases ; the goods are cheaper, but not of as high grade as the Canadian goods.


George Eulas Foster: But they are a go-ahead people.


William Stevens Fielding: They are, but they cultivate the market and make what is wranted. That is the objection made against the English manufacturer. It is said that he makes the thing you ought to want whether you want it or not, while the American or the German will make what you want, and if you want it bad he will make it bad. We have not been educated in Canada up to adapting ourselves to the markets.


Robert Laird Borden: Before the discussion ceases with regard to this item, I would like to urge that it is extremely desirable that our commercial connections with the British possessions in the West Indies should be preserved ; and even if assistance to the steamship service, looking at the present, does not seem to be a paying proposition, regarding it from a commercial standpoint, I would be very reluctant indeed to cease any subsidy or take any step which might to a still greater extent divert the commercial interests of the British West India Islands to the United States. At the present time I think the United States have a very great advantage, with regard to some of the islands at least, by reason of the better steamship communication they possess from the port of New York and possibly from other ports. There are those in this country who look forward to the possibility that some time in the future this country may have more than a commercial alliance with the British West Indies, that some time in the future those islands, or some of them, may be brought within this Canadian confederation. Whether that be a dream or not, it certainly is extremely desirable that we should not take any retrograde step, nor withdraw from any policy which was designed to preserve commerce, so far as it can be preserved, between the British West India Islands and Canada.
With respect to the maritime ports, I fully appreciate the point of view which has been put forward by my hon. friend from Sr. Antoine division of Montreal (Mr. Ames). At the same time, so far as the maritime ports are concerned, there is this to remember, that, in the first piace, during the winter months the maritime ports are the only ports by which that service can be kept up, and, so far as the summer months are concerned, one would suppose that if the Intercolonial Railway is ever to fulfil any of the functions which it certainly is expected to fulfil under the scheme of the government brought down to parliament last session and the session before, it ought to fulfil the purpose of making the necessary connection between the city of Montreal and points

west of that city and the steamship service 'between Halifax and the West India Islands. If the Intercolonial Railway cannot fulfil that object, it seems to me its usefulness has, to a very great extent, departed. A steamship service from Halifax and St. John to the West India Islands is, I think, desirable. It may be desirable at some time in the future to establish, possibly upon a more commercial basis, as the member for Montreal (Mr. Ames) has suggested, a steamship service from Montreal. Perhaps that should be done in the immediate future, but the maritime provinces of 'Canada have had in the past a very large trade with the British West India Islands ; they have a very considerable trade at the present, and I believe that with the expected development ol the fishing industry of the maritime provinces that trade ought to Increase rather than diminish in the future. I am speaking iu the presence of the members for Halifax, one of whom at least, the junior member for Halifax (Mr. Carney), has had a great deal of experience in this trade in the past, although he is not engaged in it at present, and his opinion on the subject would, of course, be very valuable.
I would desire that the service between the maritime ports and other ports of Canada and the West India Islands should be as expeditious as possible. But there are a great many islands to be visited ; there are a great many points from which traffic, both passenger and freight, must be gathered up ; and I do not suppose that vre can at the present time have both an express service and what my hon. friend from Montreal has very aptly called an accommodation service. If we make that so-called accommodation service the very best that the resources of the country will reasonably permit, and that the traffic at present would reasonably require, we may perhaps in the future reach a development in traffic betwmen Canada and the West India Islands which will enable us to have not only what might be called a freight service, but an express service as well. I do most heartily concur in the view that has been put forward by my hon. friend from Toronto, that parliament should be exactly advised What we are receiving in return for these enormous subsidies. We have asked for that information, perhaps not so directly as it has been asked for to-day, but in a more piecemeal fashion, in the debates on the estimates in the past. I would think it only businesslike on the part of the Department of Trade and Commerce when it comes to parliament for these subsidies, to be prepared, without any request from this side of the House, to state the exact results which the country is obtaining from every subsidy which this House votes for such purposes. That is the method which any business corporation would follow in dealing with such information when asking their shareholders for an appropriation of money. My hon. friend from North Toronto says
that the departments frequently get into a rut with regard to matters of this kind. There is danger not only of the department, but of the government and the House, getting into a rut unless we have information of this kind whenever these estimates are voted. We must not get into the habit of voting them as a matter of course, because they were voted last year and the year before and the year before that.


William Stevens Fielding: What information does my hon. friend want ?


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to know, with reference to any of these subsidies for promoting business between Canada and any other country, what the net results have been-the volume of trade, to what extent any increase in the volume of trade can be attributed to the service furnished by us, or to what extent any diminution in the volume of trade is due to the fact that the service has not been up to the standard required, in what way we are affected as to that commerce by the competition of foreign countries and in what way the competition of foreign countries has been made formidable by better steamship services or better means of communication than ours. All these, it seems to me. are proper matters to be considered and debated by parliament. They are matters which any business man would take into consideration. I hope we shall get a little more out of the usual rut in these matters, and that the department will come down with information which may stimulate some debate and lead to some useful suggestions and perhaps to a better system in the end.


George Eulas Foster: In speaking about this matter before, what I suggested, and what I would suggest again, is that a report be prepared. Piecemeal information of the kind we get while the estimates are being voted is not so satisfactory. You cannot sit down and size the whole business up, and make up your conclusions with regard to it. If the department would make a report on the steamship subsidy services by itself, it could easily be used, and the members could thoroughly study and digest it.


William Stevens Fielding: No doubt in the future we shall be able to do more in that respect from the information now being collected.


Mr. A. MARTIN.: I would like to remind the premier that during the session a delegation from my province waited on the Minister of Trade and Commerce to see if it were not possible to extend to the province of Prince Edward Island a service somewhat similar to the one that obtains with the province of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The province of Prince Edward Island labours under a great many disadvantages. In this respect I suppose it labours under more disadvantages than any other province of Canada. Before it can

have a share in the cheap freights which follow these subsibized boats, its produce has to be shipped over the Prince Edward Island Railway, over the straits, and then from Pictou to Halifax-three short hauls over a railway on which the rates are exorbitant. I do not know that there is any district in Canada of the size of Prince Edward Island which does more business with the West Indies than that province-in fish, in horses, and many other products which the West India market require : and if the object is to develop trade with the West Indies, surely you are not going to leave that province out of your reckoning. The scheme proposed by the hon. member from Montreal, of a steamer from Montreal calling at Prince Edward Island, would be of some service ; but I am afraid, from what I learn, that it is not likely to eventuate for some time ; and if any of those boats at present running from Halifax and St. John to the West Indies could not conveniently call at a port of Prince Edward Island. I would suggest that a steamer might be subsidized for two or three trips a year from the province. If that were done, I think the amount of money it would require would be amply repaid by increased trade between that province and the West Indies. There are some trips made by steamers at present, tout they are handicapped by the fact that a steamer running from Halifax has a subsidy, while a steamer running from Charlottetown has none. Then, these boats have many ports of call. Why not lessen the number of ports of call in the West India Islands and increase the number of starting points in Canada ? I brought this matter to the attention of the committee on a former occasion. The Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) very kindly promised that, if a line were established between Montreal and the West Indies, the province of Prince Edward Island should be made a port of call. I feel grateful for the promise. Now that the Minister of Finance seems overburdened with funds let him subsidize a steamer that will make three or four trips during the summer between Prince Edward Island and tbe West Indies.


William Stevens Fielding: I understand that in the application to which my hon. friend (Mr. A. Martin) referred, while a desire is expressed for an extension of communication, generally, there is a special wish to have communication with the Island of Cuba. We hope to have made an arrangement with a line of steamers to cover the route from Montreal to Cuba, calling at Prince Edward Island. To that extent, I hope the hon. gentleman's wish will be met. As to the other boats calling at Charlottetown, he will see at once that a vessel starting from St. John or Halifax, for the West Indies could hardly call at Charlottetown.


Alexander Martin: Why not start from Charlottetown ?


Alexander Martin: 


William Stevens Fielding: The hon. gentleman is the first to make the suggestion. But though one can make a suggestion on this point, it takes a number to make an arrangement. For. instance, there is the contractor, who is to furnish the steamer and pay the bills ;-he wishes to have something to say in the matter. We have had nothing to indicate as yet, that a commercial enterprise could be successful on the basis of starting from Charlottetown, calling at St. John and Halifax and going in to the West Indies.


Alexander Martin: Then subsidize both.
1 Air. FIELDING. The hon. gentlemai is so anxious to be a martyr that he forgets the good things his province already enjoys. They have several steamers run. ning between the island and the mainland to bring them into touch with the other lines. Of course, it would be very nice to have lines of steamers running from every port in the Dominion. That of course, is impossible, all you can do is to take the main ports. The hon. gentleman says that they have some lines running between Prince Edward Island and the AVest In dies that receive no subsidy. I suppose that what be means is that sometimes a steamer makes a special voyage over the route, but there is no regular line.


Alexander Martin: I did not suggest that there was.


William Stevens Fielding: I thought the hon. gentleman suggested that we were subsidizing steamers to compete with existing lines. Of course, the sending out of a special steamer may happen anywhere. But such a trip is undertaken at the will of the owner, and having no fixed time is not much accommodation to the public. We realize the position of Prince Edward Island, and if there were reasons to believe that a subsidized line from that province to the West Indies could promote business, there is every inclination on our part to consider it.


Alexander Martin: In this large sum of money-over $1,000,000-for steamship subsidies, the province of Prince Edward Island shares to a very small extent indeed. As to the minister's suggestion that you cannot subsidize a vessel from Prince Edward Island to the West Indies, I would remind the minister that he is doing that very thing in another case-giving a subsidy for two or three trips from Princq Edward Island to Great Britain. This is not a regular line. I feel sure that if he would do the same thing to improve communication between Prince Edward Island and the West Indies, it would increase the trade of Prince Edward Island considerably. Years ago the trade between Prince Edward Island and the AVest Indies was a very large and lucrative one. And the Minister of Finance himself has pointed out , that our trade with the West Indies has

not increased as it ought to have done. That is a question for the government to deal with. We are paying a subsidy of $140,000 to develop trade between here and South Africa. Our whole trade with that country is only about $2,000,000. The West Indies are much nearer to us and we already have a good trade with them which our neighbours to the south are taking away from us. Now, in this ' growing time ' of which we boast; now that Canada's prosperity is advancing by leaps and bounds, will the government, by penuriousness, allow tills important trade to be lost ?


Mr. A. A. MCLEAN.: A good deal might be done to develop a trade in horses from Prince Edward Island to the West Indies. In those islands light horses are in demand. Under present arrangements they must be shipped either by rail or steamer-usually by rail-to Halifax. If special rates coutd be given to shippers by the Halifax line it would be a great advantage. Let those rates continue until a regular line from Montreal is established. The freight on the short hauls from Prince Edward Island to Halifax is excessive, so much so that the men who ship from Prince Edward Island by way of Halifax are not in as favourable a position as those who ship from Mom tieal, or even from Hamilton, Ontario.


William Stevens Fielding: Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. A. A. McLean) mean special railway rates ?


Angus Alexander McLean: Railway and steamer rates. As there is a subsidy given to the steamer, the Minister of Trade and Commerce could regulate that. It is a recognized practice with the railways to grant a cheaper rate on goods intended for exportation than on goods intended for con sumption in Canada. If that principle were applied to the trade between Prince Edward Island and the West Indies, it would be a great boon.


William Stevens Fielding: I was under the impression that the railway rates in that region were pretty moderate, and that no grievance could arise on that account either as against either the Intercolonial or the Prince Edward Island Railway. Sometimes the criticism is made that the charges are too low.


Alexander Martin: I do not think the minister (Mr. Fielding! was in the House when I made a statement which he will find can be verified. Take a car of cattle from Prince Edward Island and land them in Halifax and the freight on those cattle to Halifax will amount to $65. The distance is about 200 miles. You can take a car of cattle from Guelph, Ontario, and land it in Halifax, after a trip of 1,000 miles, for $65.


Mr. A. JOHNSTON.: What is the Intercolonial portion of that ?


Alexander Martin: That lias nothing to do with the question I am discussing. I am simply showing the minister that we do not get the benefit of the long haul to Halifax. We want a rate per mile over these 200 miles the same as is charged over any other part of the Intercolonial, and more especially if these goods are intended for export. I do not think that is an unreasonable suggestion, and I hope the minister will try to have it carried out.


Alexander Johnston: I venture to suggest to the hon. member for Prince Edward Island (Mr. Martin) that if he makes a calculation he will find that the rate charged on the Intercolonial between Pictou and Halifax is lower than the rate charged by any other railway in Canada. I think he will also find that the higher rate charged between Charlottetown and Halifax is due, to a large extent, to the steamboat charge between Charlottetown and Pictou. That is unfortunate. But I want the hon. member to recollect that a few years ago a proposition was made to this parliament to bring about a state of affairs which would result in lowering that rate. The hon. gentleman was not here at the time, but a number of his friends from Prince Edward Island appeared before the Railway Committee of this House and protested against any interference with the present system of transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland.


Alexander Martin: Who was it that appeared here, and what was the proposition ?


Alexander Johnston: The proposition was to establish a rival line of steamships, a rival line of transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, and delegations appeared before the Railway Committee from all parts of Prince Edward Island protesting against any interference with the present system of transportation.


Alexander Martin: I do not know what the hon. gentleman's remarks have to do with the question under discussion. I think a transportation company was incorporated, the Act passed this House and was sent up to the Senate, where it was given a three months' hoist. The hon. gentleman says the Intercolonial is not responsible for these rates ; I think it is. I know that the Intercolonial is the route over which this freight goes, and I know the Intercolonial is the road' which charges these rates.


Alexander Johnston: Does the hon. member mean to say that the Intercolonial charges a $65 rate from Charlottetown to Halifax ?


Alexander Martin: A part of that rate is paid to the boats, about $15 or $20 would be the water charge, the Intercolonial would charge the rest. It is the short hauls which

7199
make the rate from Prince Edward Island so high.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend lias to recognize tlie fact that Prince Edward Island is an island-for the present, at all events, until certain events happen. Now if he is correct in his impression that the ralway rates on the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island lines are excessive, that is a matter for investigation. I am glad my hon. friend takes that view, for sometimes we have to fear criticism, not in the maritime provinces, that the rates on these roads are too low. I am glad the hon. gentleman puts forward the other side of the question I think, however, he will find on inquiry that the railway rates on the Intercolonial and on the island are not excessive, they are probably as low as the railway rate's for an equal distance in any other part of Canada. If that is not the case, then it is a proper subject for investigation ; because, while we are trying to run the Intercolonial as a public convenience, we have certainly no desire to charge rates higher than those which are charged by a private company. I think it will be found on examination that ii there is a difference between the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island railway rates on the one side and the company rates on the other, for a given mileage, it is in the way of higher company rates.


Alexander Martin: It is the short haul rates which we complain of. As to Prince Edward Island being an island, the province can't help that. We joined the confederation at the urgent request of the other provinces, but I do not know that they appreciate us now, they do not at least show it in the treatment they give us. On our side we are losing our population, we are losing our trade, and I am sure the Finance Minister does not desire that. I think this is one of the means that will check it, and if the Minister will take that means, he will do a service to the province; if he does not, the population will continue to decrease. VVe have lost 18,000 people since the census of 1891. taking into account the natural increase, when there should be a large increase.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Coming back to the question before the chair, I notice that the government seems to be taking power to subsidize a line of steamers from either St. John or Halifax, or from both. I understand that the subsidy has heretofore been paid to a liue of steamers from Halifax by way of St. John, and thence on to the vv est India Islands.


William Stevens Fielding: From St. John to Hal-irax and the West India Islands.


David Henderson: Now I understand the government have under consideration the idea of running this line of steamers only from Halifax, and leaving out the port


Alexander Martin: St. John. Now I wish to draw the minister's attention to this point ; These two cities are rival cities, they are both looking out for trade ; and after so many years of a service between Halifax and' St. John and the West India Islands, assisted by the government, I do not think it likely' that either of these cities will quietly submit to seeing an advantage given to the other. I think the minister can rest assured that if he limits this service entirely to the city of Halifax, he will find an agitation at once started for another service from St. John, and that instead of one subsidy he will be called upon to provide for two subsidies. 1 think that is a very likely thing to occur, and I know the hon. gentleman has no desire to waste the resources of this country in subsidizing more lines than are necessary. Even at the expense of perhaps saving a day's time in this voyage I do not think it would be wise to limit the service to the one city only. It might be that the government would meet all interests better and save money to the country by continuing the service as it has been in years gone by, and not now taking it away from either one city or the other and giving the rival city a decided advantage over the one which is not to receive the service. That is the only point I desire to make, and I draw the hon. minister's attention prominently to the fact that he can rest assured from'what I know of the people living in the city of St. John that they will not quietly submit, but that they will at once begin to agitate and continue to agitate until they secure the service which has been provided for them in bygone years if it should be taken away from them.


Mr. INGRAM.: Just a few words in respect to the freight rate question. I did not understand my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. A. Martin) to complain of the rates in the sense in which the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) has referred to his remarks. We have the statement of the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals to the effect that if the rates were the same on the government railways as they are on the other lines of railway, instead of having a deficit, the government would be able to show a surplus. No doubt hon. members on this side of the House will find fault with the administration of the government railways because they charge rates that are complained of by the hon. ex-Minister of Railways and Canals. If the government are charging a lower rate on their line of railway than other lines are charging then I think other roads will have good ground to complain. As I understand my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island he complains that it costs the same amount to transport a car of cattle from Prince Edward Island to Halifax, $65. as it does to carry it from Guelph to Halifax, and that therefore an unfair charge

is imposed upon the people of Prince Edward Island.


Alexander Martin: I did not complain particularly of the rate on the car to the other point, but I complained of the high rate charged on the people of my province.


Andrew B. Ingram: Quite so. But the hon. Minister of Finance must not run away with the idea that we in Ontario do not complain in the same way. They complain in every province of the Dominion of the rates which are charged by some railway companies for the short as against the long haul. That is a general complaint throughout this country; farmers and shippers all over this country are complaining. They think it is unreasonable and that is one of the very questions which the Railway Commission should inquire into and readjust. This has been the complaint all over this country for years. Personally I take the view that if the railway companies did not take advantage of their lower rates for long hauls tliev could not give the rates they give now for short hauls, that if they charged high rates on long hauls that would be cut out by American competition.


Wilfrid Laurier: I hope my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Alex. Martin) will profit by all this.


Andrew B. Ingram: There are many other hon. gentlemen in this House who take exactly the view of my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island, but the railway companies take a different view. They make their argument something on the line that I have already stated. On shipment from Chicago to Portland through Canada the proportion of the rate which the Canadian x*oads handling that trade receive is very low, and if they did not carry it at a low rate the trade, instead of passing through Canada, would pass through the United States to Portland. As a result of making this low rate they are in a position to get the trade, and by reason of getting the trade are in a better position to offer low rates to the Canadian people for short hauls. That is the argument, and I think there is common sense in it. Let the Railway Commission hear the complaints of shippers, farmers and others, especially those shipping cattle, let the question be fully discussed, and let the commission give their ruling as to what should be done in the matter of the long and short haul. In reference to the government railway do I understand the hon. Minister of Finance to say that the people of the lower provinces who have the advantage of government railways in their provinces are not satisfied with Height rates even though the rates are lower than the rates charged on other competing lines? Do 1 understand that the people of the eastern provinces insist on having lower rates than competing lines are able to give them, and that as a result there is a deficit in respect to the service of the government railways? If that is the position, then we will argue it from that point of view. Am I correct in understanding that to be the hon. gentleman's statement?


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know what my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) may or may not understand. He could not have received that understanding from anything 1 said because I did not touch upon the subject at all. My hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Martin) said that the railway rates are too high and I said in reply to that, that the statement was sometimes made that the Intercolonial Railway did not charge enough. I cannot put my hand on any particular member but I have heard it said a dozen times and I was glad to have my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island bear testimony to the fact that the rates were not too low, at all events. He wants them lower.


Alexander Martin: I have here a copy of a resolution passed at the annual meeting of the Maritime Board of Trade. I suppose my hon. friend the Minister of Finance would pay a good deal of respect to the opinion of the Maritime Board of Trade on a question of this kind?


William Stevens Fielding: Certainly. I respect my hon. friend's opinion too.


Alexander Martin: The Maritime Board of Trade at a meeting held at Moncton on August 17. 1904, passed a resolution, and I think my hon. friend the Minister of Finance will agree that it bears out what I said on the subject. The resolution is as follows :
Whereas, shipments from points on the Prince Edward Island Railway to points on the Intercolonial Railway, and shipments from stations on the Intercolonial Railway to stations on the Prince Edward Island Railway, are subject practically to three short haul rates, winter and summer, the ferry service on the straits charging a short haul rate, and
Whereas, shippers on the Intercolonial Railway from points on the mainland to stations in Cape Breton, notwithstanding the ferry service at the straits or Gut of Canso, are only charged a contiiiuous railway haul

How is that? From points in Nova Scotia, the province from which my hon. friend the Minister of Finance comes, to Cape Breton across the Gut of Oanso, there is no such thing as a short haul railway charge. A long haul rate is charged for goods shipped to Cape Breton which also has the misfortune to be an island. It appears that the hon. Mkiister of Finance has some antipathy towards Prince Edward Island, but in the case of Cape Breton the antipathy does not show itself to such

an extent as it does in the ease of my own province.


Alexander Johnston: I would ask my ton. friend (Mr. Alex. Martin) whether the cars of the Intercolonial Railway run over the Prince Edward Island as they do to Cape Breton and whether in his opinion that does not make a difference.


Alexander Martin: Our complaint is that they do not. We hope they are going to do that very soon.
Whereas, shippers on the Intercolonial Railway from points on the mainland to stations in Cape Breton, notwithstanding the ferry service at the straits or Gut of Canso, are only charged a continuous railway haul, the resulting overcharge on shipments to and from the island on fifteen ton carloads of eighth-class produce on an eighty-mile haul is equal to the difference between $45 and $28.
That is quite a difference on a 15 ton car ; you pay $45 in Prince Edward Island and it goes to the island of Cape Breton which is attached to the province of the Finance Minister and it gets there for $28.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN.: Is the hon. gentleman aware that there is a special ferry charge on freight going to Cape Breton ?


Alexander Martin: This is what the Marine Board of Trade says, and the ferry charge is included.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Never mind that ; is it not a fact that there is special charge for ferriage across the strait of Canso ?


Alexander Martin: This includes the ferry charge because the resolution says so. It says :
The resulting overcharge on shipments to and from Prince Edward Island on fifteen ton car loads of eighth-class produce on an eighty-mile haul is equal to the difference between $28 and $45, as compared with an equal haul on the Intercolonial. Rates on first-class goods show a much greater injustice against Prince Edward Island shippers to the mainland than mainland shippers to the island.
Therefore, resolved, that in the opinion of this board the rates of freight from all points on the government railroads to and from Prince Edward Island should be adjusted on the basis of a continuous rail haul.
That is what I suggested before ; put it on the basis of a continuous rail haul in place of three short hauls.
Resolved, that the same principle apply to shipments originating at Prince Edward Island points and transferred to the Intercolonial Railway.
Resolved, that copies of this resolution be sent to the Minister of Railways and our maritime representative at Ottawa.
I suppose 1jhis resolution was sent to the ' Minister of Finance, and I am not astonished he has overlooked it in the multitude of business he has to attend to. That is what the people of Prince Edward Island want, Mr. A. MARTIN.
and if they had a proper rate from Prince Edward Island to Halifax for export to the West Indies they would be satisfied without a subsidized boat at all. We are at present handicapped with these high inland rates and shut out of the market. We have to depend on the speculative genius of the people of Prince Edward Island to do for themselves a trade with the West Indies, whereas the people of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are doing it at the public expense.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not want to set my opinion against the view which my hon. friend presents, but as I understand what the Maritime Board of Trade asks, it is that we should deny the existence of these three short hauls and call them one. There is a short haul in Prince Edward Island over a narrow gauge railroad, there is a short haul over an independent steamship line to the mainland, and there is a short haul over the Intercolonial Railway. We are to deny the existence of these and say that there is only one haul. That is a very simple proposition, but I am afraid it is expensive.
Trade and Commerce-administration of Chinese Immigration Act, $4,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This item is solely for the payment of salaries for the administration of the Act.


George Eulas Foster: What is the tax now?


Wilfrid Laurier: $500, since the 1st of January, 1904.


George Eulas Foster: How many Chinese have come in?


Wilfrid Laurier: For the year 1904 we collected $3,200, but out of this sum there were $1,700 collected from 17 Chinamen who had entered previous to January
1.	1904, the tax not being collected until after that date. Only three Chinamen have come in paying $500 each, and that was paid by the Canadian Pacific Railway on account of three Chinamen deserters.


George Eulas Foster: Only $1,500 has been received?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And $4,000 paid out ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: To whom is that $4,000 paid ?


Wilfrid Laurier: To Mr. Newberry, collector at Victoria, an extra salary of $400 ; to Mr. Beckwith, preventive officer, $200, to Mr. Mong Kow interpreter, $1,000 ; to I. G. Pickard, stenographer, $60 ; and to George Wynne, caretaker, $60. At Victoria there is paid to J. M. Bowell, collector of customs extra salary, $400; to
C.	E. Yip Yen, interpreter. $S00, and to F. Bowser, landing waiter, $200.


George Eulas Foster: What really is aimed at is keeping these Chinamen out of Canada ?


Wilfrid Laurier: That is practically what is aimed at.


George Eulas Foster: And the $500 fee is practically prohibitive ?


Wilfrid Laurier: So it is.


George Eulas Foster: For what reason in the world can you want two interpreters paying them an aggregate of $1,800 a year. The steamship companies do their own interpreting and the only reason you want an interpreter would be that when you pounce upon an unfortunate Chinaman and tell him to whack up his $500 or get out, he may talk to you then you want to understand his frame of mind just at that moment. It seems to me you could easily get an interpreter for these three Chinamen without having one interpreter kicking his heels up at $1,000 a year and another at $800.


Wilfrid Laurier: The present law has been in force only one year and the service has been continued as it was before. We did not know how events would turn out ; they have turned out practically to prohibit Chinese immigration, but it has not altogether prevented and extinguished Chinese trade. There are a good many Chinamen who come in bond.


George Eulas Foster: How many have come in ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not know how many have come, I have no information but at all events there is a Chinese population of about 20,000 on the Pacific coast in Canada alone. It is not increasing at the present time, but, as far as my memory serves, at the time of the last census it was about 20,000 and it is still at that figure. There is no increase but there is a movement of population going to and fro between China and British Columbia. The services of this interpreter ax-e not only for the purpose of collecting the $500 from the men who come in, but are also required owing to the fact that there is a China trade going on constantly. I said a moment ago, and I think I am right, that the services of the interpreter are attached to the customs generally, although these services are mostly required for the purposes of the passenger traffic. I think they are also required for the purpose of the freight traffic. I met in 1894 one of the Chinese interpreters in Victoria, and from what I gathered he makes himself generally useful in the Customs Department. Perhaps I was misinformed, perhaps his chief services were connected with the collection of the Chinese tax which was in existence at that ti me, but I was "under the impression that he made himself generally useful in the customs and I can assure my friend that at Victoria and Vancouver these interpreters were necessary to the Customs Department.


George Eulas Foster: I think the minister had bettter look into that. It seems iike an illustration of what I said a while ago that you get into a certain rut in the department and you go on voting and paying whether the business is going on or not. I cannot see why if the Customs Department want an interpreter it is not the business of the Customs Department to employ and pay him ? I imagine we paid them because of the large number of Chinamen coming in and that no doubt kept them employed ; now when you have a prohibitive tax you cannot need these men for the administration of the Chinese Act, so I should think the Prime Minister had better look into that and see whether that vote cannot be done away with. You pay $600 and $800, altogether $1,400 to collectors in connection with Chinese immigration. If your immigration tax is really prohibitive, and you are only getting in three or four Chinamen in the course of a year I do not think you can justify that vote. If the customs officers are not getting enough pay as customs officers, give it to them, but let the customs pay it, certainly they cannot have much to do in connection with Chinese immigration. That looks also like the survival of an old vote which there has not been enough energy in the minister of the department to revise. I must say again to my right bon. friend that we find it very inconvenient to have what ought to be a live department like the Department of Trade and Commerce administered from the dead house, so to speak, that is from the house that my friends opposite used to signify as the moribund house. It would be a great deal better in these live matters if we had the minister here. We have had examples of that this year. You cannot expect the Minister of Customs who has a large department to administer to bring these estimates down and show any know-ledge of them and he did not do that ; it is not to his discredit. The Minister of Finance is also a busy man or makes a pretense of being busy.


William Stevens Fielding: It is the same thing.


George Eulas Foster: About the same thing I suppose as far as his conscience goes. I think he has enough work to keep him going, and he cannot be expected to understand this department ; he cannot understand it unless he lives in it; and I would suppose you could take one of the supernumerary departments, such for instance-w-hen you get through this Autonomy Bill-as the Department of Justice ; you might put the Minister of Justice up there and bring the live department down here.


Wilfrid Laurier: He has had enough to do already.


George Eulas Foster: Well he has to keep a check over the Department of the Interior and so long as that is run in the way it is I think it is well he is down here but we want to have the Department of Trade and Commerce down here also.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would have no objection to have the Department of Trade and Commerce here as it was before ; I would have no objection at all but I do not know that it is less effective because the head of the department has been transferred from one chamber to another. The only inconvenience is that the man who has to handle the estimates in this House cannot be so well supplied with the information to which the hon. gentleman is entitled. I am sorry I have not all the information because I learn myself as I go on in this matter. My hon. friend must not suppose that there are only three Chinamen who have come into Canada because only three have paid the capitation tax of $500. There are others, there are three classes of Chinamen and my hon,. friend will realize that when there is a population in our own country of 20,000 Chinamen and when they insist on going back to China during their life-because if they do not they must go back when they are dead,- there is necessarily a trade going on all the time. There are four classes of Chinamen, first of all there is the Chinaman who is subject to the capitation tax, that is to say on his first arrival when he comes here to work in Canada. Then there are Chinese who are living here, and are returning under registration to China. A certain number are registered, those who have their certificates and have paid their capitation tax. and they are entitled to go back to China for one year. Therefore there must be an examination of these men at the customs house, to see that they are the proper men they must be examined orally and their papers must be examined also, and therefore the services of the interpreter are required for that purpose. Then there is also the Chinaman in bond.


George Eulas Foster: Dead or alive ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are very much alive sometimes. We are a growing and progressive country and we do not import only goods in bond, but Chinamen also. We have to look after these men; they have to be carefully checked, because we do not want to mix our Chinamen with the American Chinamen, we must keep them separate. Then there is the Chinaman who is exempt altogether, the trader or the student who is above these little inconveniences, and for these reasons it has been found that the services of the interpreter were necessary. I am quite sure if my hon. friend had been here two years ago and had these estimates when the capitation tax was $100 and there was a pretty brisk trade in live flesh between this country and China, he would have had no fault to find with the employment of these two interpreters. Since that time the capitation tax has been increased, and it has almost prohibited that passenger trade. It was increased only two years ago. and my hon. friend I think cannot expect, and I do not think that on reflection he will insist, that the department should at once have cut off Mr. FOSTER.
its employees. We have to see how it will work out, and therefore perhaps it will be advisable in the future if the trade is so restricted-


George Eulas Foster: Why do you need one at Vancouver, as well as at Victoria. Victoria must be the first port of call ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Some are landed at Victoria and some at Vancouver, There is a Chinatown in Vancouver and one in Victoria also.


George Eulas Foster: Which is the first port of call ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Vancouver.


Andrew B. Ingram: The right hon. gentleman referred to examining the Chinamen orally and also examining their certificates. As I understand it there is a further examination required. All Chinamen I think look very much alike.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Andrew B. Ingram: And in order to get over the difficulty you have to have measures as to the height. Ac., and these are recorded.


Wilfrid Laurier: These would require to be examined as well.


Andrew B. Ingram: You will continue I suppose to measure them in the same way ?


Wilfrid Laurier: This can be done by somebody else than the interpreter. They are all carefully examined and marked.


Andrew B. Ingram: I presume that the Chinamen who leave Vancouver or Victoria for China and return are remeasured, so as to make sure that others are not being smuggled in, in place of those who left.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes. With regard to the item of $50,000 for commercial agencies, I suppose my hon. friend will expect me to give a statement of the agents and their localization. Mr. J. S. Larke is stationed at Sydney, Australia, D. H. Ross, at Melbourne, Australia, C. M. Kittson at Cape Town, South Africa. He was the representative of the Ogilvie Milling Company in South Africa for the last three years, and we appointed him on the death of Mr. Jar-dine. He is a Montreal man.


George Eulas Foster: He devotes all his time to this V


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes. A. F. A. Poindron is in Paris, France.


George Eulas Foster: You have a commercial agent there besides Mr. Fabre ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Why could not Mr. Fabre attend to this service ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Because I do not think Mr. Fabre, who is a success in

other directions, would be a success as a commercial agent. Mr. Poindron had been stationed in Montreal for a number of years in connection with Canadian trade, and is a very competent man. Mr. Fabre, as my hon. friend knows, is not at ail versed in commercial matters, and we thought it better to have a man who made trade his business.


George Eulas Foster: How long has this gentleman been there ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Since the fall of 1902.


George Eulas Foster: How often has he reported ?


Wilfrid Laurier: He reports regularly. I will give a statement by-and-by in regard to the reports of all the agents. The next is P. B. Ball, at Birmingham, Eng.; J. B. Jackson, at Leeds and Hull, Eng.


George Eulas Foster: Has not my hon. friend ever had any thoughts as to whether this is an acceptable appointment for Canada or not ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I will come to that in a moment. I am now giving the list. P. B. MacNamara, at Manchester, Eng.; W. A. McKinnon, at Bristol, Eng.; Alex. MacLean, in Japan ; A. W. Donly, in Mexico ; C. E. Sontum, in Norway ; E. E. Burke, in Jamaica ; Edgar Tripp, in Trinidad ; S. L. Horsford, in St. Kitts ; R. Bryson, in Antigua. With regard to the system followed, this is the way it works. The Canadian commercial agents in various parts of the world are under the constant and direct supervision of the department at Ottawa.


George Eulas Foster: What officer is in charge of them ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. O'Hara. Their reports are forwarded regularly upon a very large variety of commercial and general topics of information. Their reports are carefully edited and promptly printed in the Weekly Report issued by the department. The Weekly Report is distributed free all over Canada to any persons interested.


George Eulas Foster: How do you find out the persons interested ?


Wilfrid Laurier: By circulars and inquiries.


George Eulas Foster: As a matter of fact, how many of these go out monthly 1


Wilfrid Laurier: 1,150 every week.


George Eulas Foster: How many are published ?


Wilfrid Laurier: About the same number. All commercial agents, when in receipt of trade inquiries, forward the same td the department and the inquiries are published in the Weekly Report. Parties in Canada requesting addresses of the same obtain them by return mail, upon applica-229
tion to the department. When an address is furnished a correspondent in Canada, the commercial agent is advised, so that he can notify his client of the name and address of the interested party in Canada. Uniform instructions have been sent to all the commercial agents, which has reduced their work to a systematic basis. A complete index of the Weekly Report is published every six months and sent to the regular recipients of the report. A comprehensive index of all the trade inquiries received from commercial agents is kept in the department.
With regard to Mr. Jackson's appointment, which I know has received some criticism, and as to which we had a debate in the House last year, I would like to read to my hon. friend the following letter :
The ' Trade Review ' Publishing Company,
687 Craig Street,
Montreal, Anril 22nd. 1905.
F. C. T. O'Hara, Esa.,
Superintendent of Commercial Agencies, Department of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-We take the liberty of congratulating you upon the splendid reports issued by the commercial agencies throughout Great Britain. It seems to us that you could make arrangements with trade publications in Canada for a larger issuance of the information contained in the reports, as we think it would be a good thing for the manufacturers in this country. We are satisfied in many instances the commercial agencies could be used direct by manufacturers to extend their trade in the various districts throughout Great Britain where your agents are located ; at any rate they could ascertain the possibility of doing business in their respective districts and thus save the manufacturers the necessity of incurring the expense of sending a representative there direct.
It seems to us that the manufacturers of this country are not availing themselves to the extent they might of the valuable information issued each week by the commercial agencies throughout Great Britain. You will observe in our issue of April 7th, on page 43, we publish in full the report of Mr. P. B. McNamara. At that time we also had at hand a report'from Mr. J. B. Jackson, which we would have given at length, but the space at our disposal did not allow us to do so.
We would simply say in conclusion, we have been closely following the reports issued by Mr. Jackson since he has received his appointment, and we are pleased to go on record as saying, said reports compare favourably with the reports issued by any of the American consuls throughout Great Britain, which we receive from week to week. We make this statement in reference to him because of the somewhat unfavourable criticism that was passed upon him at the time of his appointment. And we further make this statement for one who is and always has been a staunch Conservative, and believe it is only right that when an injustice is done an individual it is a duty to repair that injustice as far as possible.
We beg to remain Yours truly,
(Sgd.) HENRY' HARVEY & COMPANY, Proprietors ' Trade Review.'



With regard to the general work of the agencies, I would like to communicate to the House the following from the Canadian Manufacturers' Association :
Canadian Manufacturers Association.
Toronto, April 29, 1905. The Right Honourable
Sir Richard Cartwright,
Minister of Trade and Commerce.
Dear Sir,-I have the honour to inclose herewith a resolution adopted at the last meeting of the executive council of this asoooiation with reference to the commercial agency branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce.
Submitting the same for your consideration, I have the honour to be.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) R. P. YOUNGE,
Secretary.
Resolution adopted at the regular meeting of the executive council of the Canadian Manufacturers Association, held at the head office, Toronto, on Thursday, April 20, 1905 :
Resolved, whereas, the Department of Trade and Commerce of the Dominion government has increased during the past year the usefulness of its commercial agency service :
(1)	By publishing the reports of the commercial agents and the foreign trade Inquiries weekly instead of monthly ;
(2)	By extending the scope of its work and appointing agents to new fields, and
(3)	By providing for more frequent visits to
Canada by its foreign agents in order that they may be kept familiar with Canada's increasing possibilities in export trade.	.
Therefore, be it resolved, that the Canadian Manufacturers Association express its appreciation and tender its best thanks to the Honourable the Minister of Trade and Commerce, for the assistance given to increase Canada's export trade by the development of the commercial agency service as above.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have read many of the reports of our different commercial agencies, and in nearly every instance I have found complaint of tlie way goods were parcelled and shipped and of the state in which they arrive at their destination. This you find, for instance, in the reports of Mr. Larke. He has been in Australia for several years. I am not aware he has ever paid Canada a visit since he first went to Australia.


Wilfrid Laurier: He sails tomorrow for Canada.


Andrew B. Ingram: It seems to me that if the commercial agents were brought home to Canada for an occasional trip, and, while here, addressed meetings in Toronto, Montreal and other important centres explaining to the people what is necessary in the shipment of their goods to the points in the territory for which the agent is appointed, it would do much to educate manufacturers and shippers on these points and so would overcome this difficulty. I believe that some organized body have already made this suggestion to the government. I am not sure, but it runs in my mind that that is the case.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


George Eulas Foster: Are these reports sent in weekly?
Sir WILFRID LAVK1ER. They are asked to report at least once a month and more frequently if they have anything to report.


George Eulas Foster: I am not in a position to criticise very much the reports of the commercial agents, for I have not been receiving them. I would like the minister to ask that my name be put on the list of those to whom these weekly bulletins are sent so that 1 may see what is in them. We are paying about $45,000 for our Canadian agencies, so called; and the field covered is not as wide as it should he, even at that amount of money. In fact, our agents do not cover a very large territory. I see that there are none in the United States of America.


Wilfrid Laurier: I omitted one name. We appointed an agent in Chicago last March-Mr. Arnaud from Annapolis.


George Eulas Foster: The United States consular service, although a poorly paid one, is most thorough.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


George Eulas Foster: And I notice, in reading the United States consular reports, that those who make them take a great deal of pains in gaining and compiling information. They do not distribute themselves over a large area, with a paragraph referring to each thing, which is a very discursive and not very satisfying method. They take one particular subject at a time and make a thorough examination of it; and, when their report is sent in, their government has in it almost everything that can be said upon that subject. The Prime Minister will see what I mean if he will examine the United States consular reports. 1 notice that our reports are fragmentary-very fragmentary. For instance, take Mr. Jackson's report of May 3rd. He has four items. One is the trade of Bradford with the United States during the month of April; the second gives the trade of Huddersfield with the United States during the month of April ; the third gives the expenditure, income, &e., of the Leeds tramway; and the fourth notes that a good deal of dissatisfaction is being expressed as to the shipments of stale and over-kept bacon from the United States, and that Canadian bacon is steadily gaining ground. While all this is good information, I do not know that it is information that greatly stimulates the trade of Canada. It is a nice thing for a man to know just what the trade of Bradford with the United States in the month of April was, but it does not lead to anywhere. It is not merely *a fragment, but it is a mere point of a fragment. When you have got it read, there is not much of it that you can keep

or use. While such things may be good if they are well selected, I think it would be still better-it our men are capable of doing it; and I am sure that they are, many of them at least-if they would take up one subject of trade and make a thorough investigation of it and give all there is in it, so that those who read can make up their minds as to what field it opens if any, and whether they should go in to possess that field.
Further, the sending out of 1,100 copies of these reports each week is something ; but it is not very much. If you take the trouble to gather this information, tabulate it and print it, then, it seems to me you ought to give it a wider circulation. I suppose the present circulation is mainly among producers and shippers, but, no doubt, a good many of the 1.100 copies circulated go to persons not actively engaged in commerce. What the government ought to do is to get this information before the trading and producing public, and it might be worth while to consider whether means cannot be taken to give this information a wider distribution.


Wilfrid Laurier: What would my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) suggest?


George Eulas Foster: I would suggest a little active propaganda. I would communicate with the members of parliament and ask them to give the names of manufacturers, producers and shippers in their constituencies to whom these reports could be sent. That is a thing that members would like to do, because they would like to have this information in the hands of those of their constituents who are interested. Then, boards of trade, manufacturers, associations and other bodies of that kind ought to co-operate. I daresay they do co-operate but that co-operation might be made more active. It may be worth considering whether the information could not be utilized in the trade papers. The point I make is that along with the fragmentary information. our agents ought to be asked to take up certain subjects so that the department here could make a thorough examination into the conditions. Take the fruit trade, the bacon trade, those are pretty well established, but there are other trades which are not, a lot of things we produce and that we want a market for.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Butter and cheese.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, but these are pretty well developed now. But there are many other things for which we want to find a market. Now if they would take up these and make an exhaustive examination and put into brief form all the information there is, where the demand chiefly is, the prices paid, and everything of that kind with reference to any article of export, they would give very valuable information, which I 229*
think would be more useful than the fragmentary information now given.


Wilfrid Laurier: The suggestions of my hon. friend are very practical, and I am happy to tell him that in part they hare already engaged the attention of the government. I will ask the department to send my hon. friend the bulletins which have been issued in the past, and which will be issued. He will find In them something that will interest him.


George Eulas Foster: There is another remark I would like to make. I have been led lately to question whether these monthly returns of exports and imports, and tabulations of trade, were fulfilling the object which the department had in view. Are they really read ? They are pretty bulky, they are a blue book, and there is a general disposition, when one gets a blue book, to throw it away somewhere. A blue book requires almost a technical education to understand it. A new member coming to this House knows what I mean. He gets a blue book, and he goes to an older member and says : Where am I to find out this thing? Well, it is in the book, but it requires a particular training to find and utilize it. If that is so with a new member of parliament, it is a great deal more so with a busy man outside. I have been led to question whether these monthly reports, coming out so long after the month in which they are dated, being so voluminous, and in part technical -whether they are not largely defeating the purpose we had in view, and whether better results would not be attained by the government in picking out certain points of interest and issuing a bulletin with reference thereto, putting the facts clearly so that the lay mind could understand them. I have been looking over some of these this morning, they are almost the size of a blue book, and they are incomplete. I doubt whether our commercial men freely read them. I would like to have the views of some commercial men here as to whether they do use them, whether they are of much value, whether it would not be better to take up some particular subject in the form Of a bulletin and present the statistics in regard to it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would not like to give any opinion on the question raised by the hon. gentleman, in the absence of the Minister of Customs, under whose purview this subject comes.


George Eulas Foster: The Department of Trade and Commerce issues them.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think they are prepared by the Customs Department, and issued by the Trade and Commerce. But I can say from my own knowledge that there is one class of the community which scans these reports very closely, and' I think would not like to have any change, and that is the manufacturers. To my certain know-

ledge they follow these reports very closely from day to day, from week to week and from month to month, in order to see in what line and in what direction trade is moving. As to the rest of the community, I have no personal knowledge how much interest is taken in them. I think my hon. friend from Leeds (Mr. Taylor) will corroborate me in saying that these reports are closely scanned by the manufacturers.


Andrew B. Ingram: In comparing the reports of the Department of Trade and Commerce with those of the Customs Department, I find in a few instances that the figures do not agree. Now in the reports which have been referred to by my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Poster), the title itself would lead one to suppose that the figures were not correct. That matter has already been brought up in the House this session, and the Minister of Customs stated that the figures were correct. If that is true, then why put in the title on these books the word ' unrevised.' That alone would lead the public to suppose that the figures were not as accurate as they might be.


Mr.   POSTER@: The unrevised figures would have reference to the last month.


Andrew B. Ingram: They are a monthly report, and the title would lead one to suppose that the figures are not vouched for by the department as being accurate. Therefore the public cannot have full confidence in it mere is a report to the end of the year, and you desire to find out some information for the first two or three months, of the following year when you go over the monthly reports and have your figures worked out, you are not certain whether the figures are accurate or not.


George Eulas Foster: In the desire to get up as nearly as possible to date, they put in the figures of the last month, even though they have not been revised. It is a close approximation.
Mi\ INGRAM. I presume we have a right to assume they are as nearly correct as they can be. The Minister of Customs says that they are as correct as they are in the yearly report. If that be true then the words used make a person who is looking up the facts believe that he is simply getting the figures of the total amount of the supposed actual trade done.


Sir WILFRID LAURIE  R.@: My hon. friend from North Toronto has just given the exact reason why they are issued in that form. To come back to the subject-that he mentioned a moment ago I may say to my hon. friend from North Toronto that the subjects which have already been treated in the weekly reports of the Department of Trade and Commerce are as follows : Butter and cheese to the West Indies ; butter and bacon in Great Britain ; Danish methods in marketing products in Great Britain ;
boots and shoes in the West Indies, and Canadian flour in the West Indies.


Herbert Brown Ames: I notice there the item of boots and shoes in the West Indies. When that statement was prepared was it sent to the manufacturers of and the wholesale dealers in boots and shoes throughout the Dominion 1


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that to a large extent it was and to everybody on the list. I am informed also that a large number of circulars are going out daily to firms not already on the list asking if they desire the report.


Herbert Brown Ames: With a particular report such as this which so obviously interests a class of manufacturers, the manufacturers of boots and shoes for example, I should think it would not be necessary to write in advance and ascertain if they wished bulletins sent, but that bulletins or instructions from the department should be sent to all of that class throughout the Dominion. They would all appreciate it. While the probabilities are that the regular reports of the department published by the department would not be read and considered, this one special report which affects their business would be welcomed, I am sure.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.
Bounties on iron and steel, manufactures of steel, on lead contained in lead ore, and on crude petroleum-to cover expenditure in connection with the administration of the Acts, 511,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is the whole expenditure on these items up to date ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, The total amount paid last year is a pretty large one. The different amounts are as follows :
Pig iron	8 553.9S2 15
Puddled iron	bars	
11,668	99Steel ingots	
347,990	17
Articles manufactured from
steel	
15,320	85Lead	
195,627	09Binder twine	
25.452	04Crude petroleum	167,204	47Total	81,297,245 76


Andrew B. Ingram: How does this amount compare with the estimate of the amount which would be paid out on account of these bounties made by the hon. Minister of Finance last year ?


William Stevens Fielding: I do not remember that I made a definite estimate of the amount. If so I do not recall it at the moment. I will look it up however.


David Henderson: Would the right hon. Prime Minister say whether the bounty paid on crude petroleum is for the full twelve months or only for a fraction of the twelve months ?


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Sir WILFRID LA  DRIER@: It is from the 8th of July to 18th of January.


David Henderson: So tlie amount paid does not give us an idea of what the yearly amount will be. The statement is only for a little over half a year.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think the estimate of the hon. Minister of Finance was about $300,000.


William Stevens Fielding: I did give an estimate in regard to the bounty on petroleum.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think it was about $300,000 but l would not be sure.


William Stevens Fielding: I cannot recall it. I think that is the only case in which I gave an estimate. It entered into the calculation as to the duty.


David Henderson: I understand the bounty on petroleum is paid monthly or at short periods. Why have we not a statement since January ? It seems to me that the statement should lie brought down from a later date.


Wilfrid Laurier: These statistics were prepared some time ago.


David Henderson: They are somewhat ancient.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, somewhat ancient. We can give him some more modern history >if my hon. friend desires it.


George Taylor: We will get it on the sup-plementaries.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: ' My object in asking the question was to ascertain what is the probably yearly amount we are called upon to pay.


Wilfrid Laurier: We will have it here the next time.


George Eulas Foster: It may be over $300,000.


David Henderson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Well, this fact we have just brought out sets one thinking. But, I suppose this is not a proper place in which to criticise the system of bounties. I never thought when I used to be here that I would ever look into the face of a Liberal government and have the information given to me by the head of the government, especially its present head, that the enormous sum of one million and nearly five hundred thousand dollars would be paid out for bounties.


David Henderson: It avoids the adoption of a protectionist tariff.


George Eulas Foster: Would the right hon. First Minister give us the details of the
expenditure?


Wilfrid Laurier: The expenditure in connection with the iron and steel
bounties is as follows: James A. Russell, supervisor for Nova Scotia, salary $1,400 a year; .James McNeil, assistant supervisor, Sydney, $900; James G. Parmelee, Sault Ste. Marie. $1,000; Hugh Murray, $250; lead. G. O. Buchanan, Kaslo, $2,400 ; James B. Harvey, supervisor, Petrolia, $1,200 ; L. B. Jackson, clerk, Petrolia. $420; James Spierman. excise officer. Sarnia, $200; C. J. Coffey, Moncton. $200. Then with /regard to binder twine there is a name which is somewhat familiar, J. L. Haycock, Kingston, Ontario


George Eulas Foster: How do vou spell him: Hay


Wilfrid Laurier: I thought my hon. friend was familiar with the name.


George Eulas Foster: I wanted to see how it was spelled so that I would be sure of it. Is that the last surviving remnant of the Patrons of Industry ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I only know him as inspector of binder twine and supervisor of bounty.


George Eulas Foster: What do you pay him?


Wilfrid Laurier: 


George Eulas Foster: It is worth $1,600 to collar the whole business.


George Taylor: It is money thrown away.


Andrew B. Ingram: He is a little Czar to administer the law.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 165 respecting the Canadian Yukon Western Railway Company.-Mr. Campbell.
On the order being called for,
Second reading of Bill (No. 172) for the relief of Philip Vibert.-Mr. Zimmerman.
Mr. ZIMMERMAN.: I know nothing about this Bill. It has been put on the order paper in my name and I decidedly object and ask my name to be withdrawn.


Wilfrid Laurier: Stand.
Order allowed to stand.



[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Trade and Commerce, $65,600.
['The Militia Bill.']
Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster) asked for some explanation as to the methods which were observed by the gov-

eminent for tlie payment of the bounties which we were discussing this afternoon. Under the Acts providing for these bounties it is enacted that regulations shall be made by the Governor in Council for the purpose of checking the way in which they are to be paid. Orders in Council have been passed providing that the work shall be superintended by an officer of the government who is stationed in each of the different premises, the regulations provide further that the officer in charge is to see that ail quantities of ores and the different ingredients which go into the making of the metal shall be carefully examined into, that they shall be weighed and that he shall satisfy himself of all the quantities that have entered into the metal, so that the officers in charge at the different works at Sydney or Sault Ste. Mane follow from day to day all the operations of the manufacturer. They weigh all the quantities of ore that go in and satisfy themselves from day to day of everything that takes place in the manufacture. When that is done the company makes a claim for the quantity upon which they think they have earned bounty, and the claim is checked by the officer on the books of the company. Then it is transmitted to Ottawa to the accountant, who goes over it as far as he can and then the claim is sent to the Auditor General for payment.


George Eulas Foster: If the payment is so much on each ton of pig-iron then what about the payment on puddled bar ?


George Eulas Foster: And how much is paid on steel ingots ?


Wilfrid Laurier: $2.25 a ton upon the steel ingots.


George Eulas Foster: And the steel ingots are made from the pig-iron ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: So that you pay really $4.50 on the perfected process in each case ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is $2.25 and $2.25. On pig iron which is made of ore 50 per cent Canadian, $2.25, and on pig-iron made from 50 per cent foreign, $1.50.


David Henderson: I presume that is about right. The bounties oi'iginally were $3 for converting the ore into pig-iron, $3 more for converting the pig-iron into steel, but there is a gradual reduction year after year, until the whole thing is wiped out, I think in about seven years from the time the law was passed. I think that the Prime Minister is about right when he says that it is $1.50 for this year, as this reduction has taken place during the last three years.


George Eulas Foster: What is the process with reference to the crude petroleum?


Wilfrid Laurier: We have an officer by whom the quantities are ascertained. The claims are njade by the companies, and, when verified by the officer, are transmitted by him.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, The same methods are followed.


George Eulas Foster: How much is paid now on pig iron ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, $2.25 on Canadian and $1.50 on foreign ores.


George Eulas Foster: Does that decrease each year ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It decreases each year. It has to run, I think, two or three years more.


George Eulas Foster: [DOT] How much is paid per gallon ?	i


Wilfrid Laurier: One and one-half cents.


George Eulas Foster: For every gallon pumpecl -is that it?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, the bounty was applied in July last. It wag paid up to what was in store, and since then it has been paid upon what was pumped.


David Henderson: How frequently are the payments made?


George Eulas Foster: After you have paid the $2.25 on pig-iron that pig-iron is put through processes which make puddled bars ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, Yes.
Sir WILFRIL LAURIER, About monthly.


George Eulas Foster: This crude petroleum is pumped at the different wells and then run into a central tank?


George Eulas Foster: And then you pay on it again how much ?


Wilfrid Laurier: On puddled bars $2.25.


George Eulas Foster: What does the steel ingot come from, puddled bar ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is made into pig-iron and then steel ingots afterwards.


George Eulas Foster: The next is steel ingots, what are they made from ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are made from the pig-iron, as I understand.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And the quantity is calculated at the central tank?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And the bounty paid on that? Then, the bounty is paid to the purchaser and not to the producer?


Wilfrid Laurier: * No, to the producer.


George Eulas Foster: Then, it must be measured in some way before it goes into the central tank?


Wilfrid Laurier: 1 understand that there is no difficulty about that, 'lhere is a system of checking the amount pumped from each well into the tank.


Andrew B. Ingram: Many of the wells are owned by private individuals. A man may have an" oil well in his garden. But the pumping of the oil from that well is done by a power which is used to pump perhaps twenty other wells. The well owner pays so much for the pumping and he gets so much for his crude oil. To pay the bounty, of course, it must be known what each well produces.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that the quantity pumped from each well into the central tank is measured as it goes into the central tank. I may say that all the expenses that were mentioned this afternoon of checking the operations for the payment of the bounty are borne by or recouped to the government by the companies to receive the bounty.


George Eulas Foster: Tell us how the binder twine is done and how many pounds were made?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have here the figures to show the production in detail.
Statement showing Bounties paid on Binder Twine during the Fiscal Year 1003-4.
Finn,	Quantity of Binder Twine made.	Manilla Fibre used.	Bounty paid.Canadian Cordage	Lbs.	Lbs.	$ cts.Mfg. Co., Peter-, borough	6,352,835	1,137,696	3,873 2(iBrantford Cordage Co. (Ltd.), Brantford	2,245,4S8	1,430,131	4,870 59M. J. Wilson Cordage Co., Chatham	575,578	221,728	754 82Independent Cordage Co. of Out., Toronto.	637,786	378,173	1,287 8jConsume rs' Cordage Co., of Montreal and Dartmouth. .	3,724,150	2,432,024	8,276 93Brandon B' i n d e r Twine Co., Brandon, Man...	973,832	516,360	1,760 32Walkerton Binder Twine Co., Walkerton. . 	822,808	565,449	1,927 66Kingston Penitent: ary Binder Twine Factory, Kingston	832,571	792,193	2,700 65Totals	16,165,048	7,473,754	25,452 04


George Eulas Foster: That bounty was paid to the Kingston Penitentiary binder twine factory as a matter of bookkeeping ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes. The total production was 16,165,048 pounds ; the manilla fibre used was 7,473,754 pounds ; and tbe total amount of bounty paid was .$25,452.04.


George Eulas Foster: Is there any restriction put on the sale price of bounty-fed binder twine, or do tbe manufacturers fix their own prices ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They fix their own prices.-


George Taylor: I notice that most of the factories produce about two pounds of binder twine to one pound of manilla used, all except the Kingston penitentiary, where they use a pound of fibre to a pound of twine.


George Eulas Foster: Does that take in all our bounties ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIEE, That takes in all our bounties, so far as I know at this moment.


David Henderson: What is the bounty on binder twine ?


Wilfrid Laurier: 75 cents per 100 kilos, and one kilo is equal to 2-20 pounds.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the lead bounty work satisfactorily in British Columbia ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that it does.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice that some of the newspapers say that it is not satisfactory, and that the miners would prefer a straight duty on lead.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would not be surprised at that. It is difficult to satisfy everybody. If a duty were placed on lead, it would seriously interfere with the manufacture of paint, and therefore it would necessitate a pretty extensive revision of the tariff. The government will perhaps take that matter up for consideration on the next revision of the tariff ; but in the meantime they considered that the best way of protecting the lead industry was by means of a bounty.


David Henderson: Before we pass from the binder twine, is tbe First Minister able to say whether the bounty will be a complete offset to the export duty charged by the American government on manilla coming from the Philippine Islands ? Will it place our manufacturers on a par in that regard with the American manufacturers ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say that my information on that point is not such to enable me to commit myself to a definite statement. I know that such was the intention when the bounty was put on.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice that $195,627 has been paid in lead bounties. Suppose the paying of a bounty on lead ceased, in what position would our lead producers in British Columbia be ? If a straight duty were imposed, they would be protected and would be receiving some benefit.


Wilfrid Laurier: As I have explained to my hon. friend last year, when the lead men came to us for assistance, representing that they had established an industry in British Columbia, which employed some 500 men in producing lead, that they had lost their market in the United States as the result of a combine there, and that unless we came to their assistance, the whole of the money which they had put into the industry would be wiped out and the men employed in it would be deprived of their work, I dare say they would have) preferred a duty to a bounty. But the government considered that they could not at that moment impose a duty on lead without interfering seriously with other industries of which lead is the raw material. AH the manufacturers of paint use our lead, and this is a growing industry, and a very rapidly growing industry, as my hon. friend knows. If the government at that time had been prepared to revise the tariff, I do not say but that they would have taken into consideration the request of the lead producers. Whenever the time comes for revising the tariff-and that time cannot be very far distant, for our tariff has been in existence for about eight years-the Minister of Finance may think it advisable to revise his policy in regard to lead, and may replace the bounty by a duty. I do not say that in the way of forecasting events, but the matter is fairly open for consideration.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, I understand from the right hon. gentleman's remarks, that the paint manufacturers wished to import lead from the United States. I suppose that was their objection to having a duty imposed on lead.


Wilfrid Laurier: No. I say that if a duty had been put on lead, whether it came from the United States or from Canada, it would have so seriously interfered with the price of the raw material of the manufacturers of paint that their industry would have been placed in serious jeopardy.


David Henderson: That involves a pretty deep question-whether it would have increased the price of lead or not. Is it not possible that by means of a good round duty you would have succeeded in developing the lead industry in British Columbia to such an extent that we would not require to import any great quantity, while the competition amongst the miners would have kept the price as low as it is at present, with the


Wilfrid Laurier: bounty added ? That is a pretty big question, and perhaps the First Minister does not desire to go into it to-night; but I think that is the true protective principle-to develop that industry with a view not only to maintaining and increasing it, but with a view to bringing down the priqe of lead.


Wilfrid Laurier: As my hon. friend has rightly stated, this is a very big question, and his view that the imposition of a duty does not increase the price of the manufactured article to the consumer is one which is not generally shared by those who have to pay the duty. They say that it does increase the price of their raw material. I have heard the argument of my hon. friend before, and no doubt I shall hear it again. I will refer him to the example I have seen very often when we are asked to increase the duty. We are told it will not increase the price, but there will be so much competition from within that the price will remain just as it is. But with respect to the raw material used in the manufacture of that ai'ticle the man always says : Hold on, you cannot increase that duty without increasing the price at the same time.


David Henderson: I should think the Prime Minister, with his sunny ways, might be able to persuade him of his fallacy.


Wilfrid Laurier: My sunny ways do not always succeed, with my hon. friend, at all events.


Andrew B. Ingram: I was pointing out that we were paying $195,627 in bounties, and when this bounty ceased, if there was no duty put on, then our lead producers would be in no better position than they were before the bounties were put on.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is another question we will have to take up in due time.


George Taylor: Is it the duty of Mr. Haycock to ascertain the quantities made by each one of these factories, and arrive at the amount of bounty they are entitled to ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: When it is not in stock.


Wilfrid Laurier: That was in the past.
Inspection of staples-chief inspectors, inspectors, deputy inspectors and other employees under the General Inspection and Manitoba Grain Acts, $60,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: I wish to make an amendment in the language of this item. I move to insert after the word ' inspection ' in the third line ' grain inspection.' I will now give *a statement of all our inspectors, first taking the inspectors of grain, which are the most important :
List of ail persons employed under the inspection of staples, including those of the

eastern and western grain inspection divisions, inspection of hides and inspection of binder twine :
Name and title.	Salary-.
David Horn, chief inspector of grain for
the Dominion, Winnipeg	$ 5,000


Charles C.: Castle, warehouse commissioner, Winnipeg	 3,500
Matthew Snow, deputy warehouse commissioner, Winnipeg	 1,S00


Thos.   M.@: Horn, deputy inspector of grain,
Winnipeg	 1,800
Geo. Serls, deputy inspector of grain, Winnipeg	 1,800
E.	Thompson, assistant warehouse commissioner, Winnipeg	1,500
C.	N. Bell, secretary of board of survey
and board of grain examiners, Winnipeg 750
F.	E. Gibbs, inspector of grain and weighmaster, Fort William	 3,500
A. F. Gibbs, deputy inspector of grain,
Fort Arthur	 1,500
Geo. Hill, first weighman, Fort William 1,500 Fred. Svmes, charge cargo shipments,
Fort William	 1,500


Jas.   D.@: Fraser, chief clerk, Winnipeg.. 1,020 Jas. Gershaw, charge night work, Winnipeg	 1,200
Stewart Langille, assistant, Winnipeg.. 900 Wm. Crawford, assistant, Winnipeg.. ..	1,200
F. E. Endersby, yard clerk, Winnipeg.. ..	780
Frank Collins, assistant, Winnipeg.. ..	900
W. G. Corbett, clerk, Winnipeg	 720
J. T. Hollinshead, weighman. Port Arthur 960 Jas. O'Hagan, deputy inspector of grain,
Fort William	 1,020
R. J. Temple, weighman, Fort William.. 780 J. A. McTavish, cargo sampler, Fort William	 780
J. D. Watson, cargo sampler, Fort William	 780
W. F. Clipston, cargo sampler, Winnipeg 780 T. A. Elliott, weighman, King's elevator,
Port Arthur	 780
Jas. Beirnes, assistant, Winnipeg	 660
Wm. Cuddy, assistant at night work, Winnipeg	 720
James Cuddy, assistant, Winnipeg	 660
H. McLean, assistant, Winnipeg	 720
D.	W. Duff, assistant, Winnipeg	 660
J. A. Drummond, assistant, Winnipeg.. ..	660
40,830
Eastern Grain Inspection Division.
E.	F. Graig, chief inspector of grain,
Montreal	 3,500
Hospice Labelle, inspector of grain, Montreal	 3,000
Alex. Boyer, deputy inspector of grain,
Montreal	 1,000
Ed. Boyer, deputy inspector of grain, Montreal	 900
A. F. Fillion, grain sampler, Montreal.. 750 L. G. Labelle, clerk, grain inspection
office, Montreal	 1,100
E. M. Campbell, inspector of grain and
hay, Toronto	 2,000
A. Turner, deputy inspector of grain,
Toronto	 1,000
W. J. McNeill, inspector of grain and
hay. Kingston	 650
J. Hurley, inspector of grain and hay,
Peterboro	 650
Total grain inspection	 55,380
Geo. Roy, chief inspector of hides, Quebec	$ 1,500
J. L. Haycock, inspector of binder twine, Kingston	 1,600
Total-inspection of staples	 59,480


David Henderson: Was there, not another one in Toronto, Mr. Adamson ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No, Mr. Adamson is dismissed. The total of the salaries for the two divisions is $59,4S0.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman speaks of two divisions ; where is the line drawn ?


Wilfrid Laurier: East and west of Fort William.


Andrew B. Ingram: To Montreal?


Wilfrid Laurier: To Montreal.


David Henderson: Fort William is included in the western division?


Wilfrid Laurier: Fort William is included in the western division. This is a very important branch of the service and perhaps my hon. friend would be interested to know in what manner the work of weighing and inspecting grain is performed. The inspection of grain in Canada has become from year to year a work of the greatest importance, constantly increasing and constantly necessitating improvements in the methods adopted to insure the reputation of Canadian grain in the foreign markets. There are two divisions at present under the Grain Act, which two divisions comprise the whole of Canada. The wrestern division with headquarters at Winnipeg and the eastern division with headquarters at Montreal. Mr. David Horn, until recently, was chief inspector of the western division, and Mr. Edward Craig was chief inspector of the eastern division. By an Order in Council, however, Mr. David Horn has been appointed chief inspector for the Dominion, so that the two inspection divisions as at present, and any future divisions which may be erected, may be brought into harmony throughout the Dominion. Upon the arrival of every grain train in Winnipeg, when it comes in, night or day, Sundays or holidays, a staff of grain men must be on hand so that samples may be taken from each car expeditiously in order that no train may be delayed. Mr. Horn has at Winnipeg a staff of from twenty' to thirty according to the season of the year ; six of these are duly examined deputy inspectors holding certificates. As soon as the train pulls in and the conductor hands in his way hill, the inspectors are allowed to make a list from it. With this list they go out to the track, open the cars as they come to them, according to the list. They usually go in gangs of three, that is to say, two samplers in charge of a deputy or foreman of experience. With a specially

contrived instrument lie stabs tbe grain in from seven to ten or a dozen places, and places eacli sample in a clotb on top of tbe grain at tbe door of tbe car. Tbe foreman mixes these various samples and satisfies bimself that it is a fair average of tbe car. This sample of about two pounds is tben placed in a bag, ticketed with tbe number of tbe car, &c. This sample is then taken to the grain inspection office and carefully examined by expert inspectors. A careful lookout is maintained for cars in bad condition, for leakages, &c. If any irregularities are discovered they are immediately reported. Tbe certificates are issued accordingly and the trains proceed to Fort William or Fort Arthur, the necessary documents being sent by mail to the grain inspection offices there. Samples of all tbe grain inspected are kept at the Winnipeg office. The system at present in vogue is found- to be eminently satisfactory, as is attested by the reputation of Canadian certificates in the foreign markets. The system at Montreal is very similar ; though at this point the work is not so heavy as it is in the west, and somewhat different from the large quantities of United States grain having to pass inspection at Montreal, whereas at Winnipeg the inspection is wholly of Canadian origin. I think the service has been performed satisfactorily. In so far as I know no complaints have been received against the men who do that work.


George Eulas Foster: W'hat grades are given in the inspection of wheat?


Wilfrid Laurier: I could not say at this moment, but if I had the statute at hand the only thing I could do would be to read the Grain Act passed last year. The grades are fixed by statute and the quality of the grade is fixed by a board of examiners appointed by the government. The standards are fixed every year as the quality varies from year to year ; the crop is not the same every year. Samples are taken in advance and distributed among the officers who keep them as the standards of the different grades. The samples are also sent to the corn exchanges in Great Britain.


George Eulas Foster: You say that United States grain in Montreal has to pass our inspection?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


John Waterhouse Daniel: What is the system in regard to the grain that is taken to the seaboard in the winter? Is that accompanied by a certificate from one of the inspectors from the west or from Montreal?


Wilfrid Laurier: It applies to all grain for export. A certificate has to be taken either from Montreal or Winnipeg.	i


Wilfrid Laurier: 


George Eulas Foster: Are no grains tested that go through except they are for export?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are all inspected whether for foreign or domestic use.


David Henderson: A year or so ago there was a good deal of complaint about the Montreal inspection. It was not accepted in the old country as readily as the western inspection. Have there been any complaints recently in regard to that?
Sir WILFRID LAURIEIi. None at all.


David Henderson: That was the case, I am aware. The standard did not seem to be so high. I am glad to know it has been overcome. Do I understand that Mr. Horn is the chief inspector for the entire Dominion?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: Then Mr. Craig is reduced to a subordinate position as the inspector for the eastern division?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: Who is the inspector for the western division?


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Horn.


David Henderson: He is chief inspector and also inspector for the western division?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


David Henderson: There is no doubt Mr. Horn is a very capable man.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


David Henderson: I think he is believed to be the best man in the Dominion of Canada for that purpose. That is the opinion both east and west in so far as I have been able to learn. In regard to the change in Toronto from Mr. Adamson to Mr. Campbell, did the government have any special reason for discharging Mr. Adamson? He was an officer who had occupied that position for some considerable time. Could the right hon. minister tell me if Mr. Campbell had any special quail-' fication ? The appointment was criticised somewhat in Toronto when the change was made.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Adamson was dismissed upon the special recommendation of Mr. Horn. As to the qualification of Mr. Campbell, he passed the required examination and passed, I understand, one of the best possible examinations.


George Eulas Foster: Where is the examination passed? What is the board?


Wilfrid Laurier: At Toronto.
The board of examiners which fixes the standards is the board which makes the examination.


George Eulas Foster: Is there any record of the amount of grain examined at Winnipeg, Montreal or Toronto?


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend will find the information in the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, page 740.


George Eulas Foster: This whole business amounts to $92,500. Who pays that ?


Wilfrid Laurier: There are specified fees charged for inspection and for weighing. I am informed that the capacity of a car has now so much increased that the government are contemplating almost duplicating the fees for weighing carload lots.


George Eulas Foster: What amount of fees were collected last year ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Toronto produce grain inspection, $3,111.68 , Montreal, grain inspection and samples sold. $4,599.20 ; Manitoba inspection division, grain inspection, warehouse licenses and samples sold, $53,157.43.


George Eulas Foster: According to that the government is in for about $30,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: I should think that the grain business ought to pay for its own certificating.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


George Eulas Foster: The government should see that the fees charged would cover the expenses.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have just said that we were contemplating increasing the fees.


George Eulas Foster: In the meantime the country lost $30,000 last year.


Wilfrid Laurier: That fact has already engaged the attention of the government and it seems to be reasonable that the fees collected should be commensurate with the expenditure.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is estimated that there will be 90,000,000 bushels of grain in the west this year. Our present inspecting staff costs us $95,000 a year and I would like to know if that same staff will be able to inspect the increased production. If so the chances are the receipts will double the expenditure.


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot say as to that, but I suppose we will be guided by Mr. Horn, who the member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) states is a very competent man. He would no doubt be able to estimate in advance whether he will want any extra men or whether he can perform the service with the present staff. I have no doubt that the department will confer with Mr. Horn on the matter.


George Eulas Foster: I understand the policy of the government is to make this business pay its own charges.


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot say if that is the policy of the department, but I am of the same mind as my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) and think it would be my policy if I had charge.


George Eulas Foster: It is the certificating that gives the character to and fixes the price of the grain ; it must be of great advantage to the trade as a whole and to the producer ultimately.


Andrew B. Ingram: Under the Act of 1903 the Governor in Council had the right to fix the fees to be charged and I do not think that has been amended.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have the right.


Herbert Brown Ames: I have only just come into possession of the correspondence which was brought down in response to a return moved for by me on the 22nd of February, in reference to the reasons why the nominations of the Montreal Board of Trade were not accepted on the Grain Survey Board named for Montreal. We were given to understand on the 27th of February, by the Prime Minister, that good and sufficient reasons for ignoring the recommendations of the Montreal Board of Trade would be found in this correspondence. The Prime Minister then said :
I do not mean that the fact that Messrs. Carruthers and Metcalfe were passed over would indicate anything against these gentlemen. I do not think it would he fair to imply or_ accept anything of that kind, but the Minister of Trade and Commerce informs me that these gentlemen have been passed over for good and sufficient reasons which will appear upon the face of the papers when they are brought down.
The papers have now heen brought down and although I have looked them over very carefully I can find no good and sufficient reasons given. The reasons are referred to in oue or two instances here. In a letter of the 4th of October addressed to the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and signed, J. S. Norris & Co., a firm of Montreal grain shippers, these gentlemen call the attention of the government to the fact that great dissatisfaction exists in Montreal because the nominations made by the Montreal Board of Trade were not given effect to by the government. Mr. Norris writes :
Both Mr. Carruthers and Mr. Metcalfe have heen long identified with the grain trade here, and without doubt possess superior qualifications for acting on that board.
Turning to a letter of October 12th, which is a reply to this letter of Messrs. J. S. Norris & Co., by W. G. Parmelee, Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, I find this statement:	[DOT]

I do not propose entering into an argument upon the subject at all, but I know that your opinion is very different from the opinion of the Department of Justice to which the question was referred in the flrst instance. The decision of the department, as communicated to this office, is as follows :
Then follows the decision of the Department of Justice. In another letter of the 8th of October, signed W. G. Parmelee, Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, and addressed to the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, this statement is made:
The change in the personnel was not made without due consideration and it was deemed advisable that there should be a change, the reasons for which would take up too much space if enumerated.
It will be seen, therefore, that no reasons are given in the correspondence. Now, Sir, there are two questions involved in tills matter. The flrst question is :	The
slight which was offered to the Montreal Board of Trade by the government in making these nominations. Whether or not we accept the interpretation given to the Act by the Minister of Justice, the fact remains undisputed that on the 23rd of August. Mr. Parmelee wrote to the secretary of the board of trade as follows :
The Act of course provides for a recommendation by the board of trade of fit and skilful persons to compose the grain survey board, and the full provisions of the Act must be complied with before the new board is in a position to act. Your board will do well to make their recommendation so that they may be considered by the Governor in Council as early as possible.
And then, when the recommendations were made the reply which we received in Montreal was that the recommendations in a large measure shall not be adopted, that the government is not bound to adopt them and that the Minister of Justice has given an opinion to that effect: in fact that the recommendations might or might not have been made at ail, and yet the government would have felt perfectly free to go ahead with their nominations. The board of trade at the present day cannot see why they should be called upon to make any suggestions at all if their suggestions are to have such little weight with the government. but I cannot help feeling-and in this I know I voice the sentiments of the grain trade and the board of trade of Montreal-that there is some personal reason on the part of certain officials connected with the grain board at Ottawa or Montreal which has operated against the nomination of Messrs. Metcalfe and Carru-thers. and if we knew the whole facts it would be found that not so much the efficiency of the service is considered as certain private reasons that have not yet come out in the correspondence, and I think we ought to have some explanation that would be at least acceptable by the Montreal * Mr. AMES.
Board of Trade and the Montreal Grain Exchange, as to why Messrs. Metcalfe and Carruthers were not accepted when nominated.


Wilfrid Laurier: I take some exception to the first statement which has been made by my hon. friend, that the Montreal Board of Trade have reason to complain that the representations which they made to the government were not accepted in their entirety. I have only to observe to my bon. friend that the power of appointment rests upon the government and not upon the board of trade. The board of trade can do nothing but make suggestions.


Herbert Brown Ames: Would it uot have been courteous to the Montreal Borad of Trade, in case any nominations which they made were not acceptable to the government, to have asked the Montreal Board of Trade to have made other nominations until a sufficient number of nominations were made to enable the government to choose a board which would be mutually satisfactory ?


Wilfrid Laurier: If my hon. friend asks me if it would not have been courteous for the department to ask the Montreal Board of Trade for other recommendations since the first ones had not been accepted, I think as a point of etiquette, although I ant not prepared to discuss it, there might be something in it. My point is that I do not accept the view of my hon. friend if I correctly understood his idea to be that the government was bound to accept the recommendations of the board. The government in this case has to consult somebody as to the making of the appointments, and I imagine there are no better parties to be consulted in a matter of this kind than the board of trade. But upon the advice that the government receives the government has to exercise its best judgment, and if for reasons sufficient for themselves they think the recommendations which have been made are not the wisest that couid have been made, if they have reason to take some exceptions to them, I think they are quite within their rights in not accepting them. As to the matter of courtesy I have nothing to say. I do not think it is a thing which after all amounts to very much if the relations have not been as tender and gentle as they might have been. I believe there is something in what my hon. friend says that there is an impression in Montreal-in some quarters, not everywhere-that there has been some bidden reason why the nominations of these two gentlemen have been passed over by the government. In addition to that my hon. friend says : We are entitled to know what these reasons are ; the government are not expected to act on caprice or by whims, and if they passed over the recommendation of a respectable body like the Board of Trade of Montreal they must have had

some reasons for that and we should know them. The government of course must accept the responsibility of their action, and I do not know but I presume that if the government have passed over the names of these two gentlemen and substituted two other names, who 1 think are vei-y competent, they had some reason for that. There could be no reason at all why the action of the government should not be scrutinized in every way. My hon. friend thinks we ought to know these reasons ; I have only to say that I cannot give him the reason at this moment. When my hon. friend brought the matter up on January 27, I called upon the Minister of Trade and Commerce and reported to him the views which had been expressed by my hon. friend when I saw his notice on the order paper, and the Minister of Trade and Commerce told me then that he had good and sufficient reason for the action which he had taken. I shall be happy to confer with the.Minister of Trade and Commerce again and I shall be happy to discuss the matter with my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) at a later stage, and to give the reasons which have actuated the department in the action of which he complains.


Herbert Brown Ames: 1 think it.would be in the general interest of the grain trade and of that harmony which should prevail between the government and commercial bodies if the matter should be a little more thoroughly ventilated. There is a feeling-how just it may be we do not know-which is not entirely one of satisfaction with the local officials connected with the grain inspection of Montreal. I have myself been in receipt of considerable correspondence from grain importers in Great Britain making severe criticism on the grain inspection officials of the city of Montreal, and there is a feeling that the government was influenced to some extent in their action in this matter by the fact that those nominations were not acceptable to certain officials stationed at Montreal in connection with the grain trade.


Wilfrid Laurier: All I can say >at this moment is that if there are any reasons to suspect any official of the government at Montreal It would be the duty of my hon. friend to give his reasons, not here, but to the department so that the department may fake action if it deem it advisable. I have had, so far as I am concerned, no complaint against any official, but if there are some officials who are under suspicion it is not fair that they should be held under suspicion. The matter should be investigated and if they are found guilty they should be removed from the service, but if they are not guilty their record is clear and nothing more should he heard of the charges. I think my hon. friend will find when I give them the reasons and the documents upon which the government has acted that perhaps he will have cause to change
his mind as to the reasons which have influenced the government.


Herbert Brown Ames: Possibly.


David Henderson: On this point I regret that I have not the wording of the statute before me, but my impression is that when we passed this Act last year provision was made that the Board of Trade of Montreal and the Board of Trade of Toronto should recommend to the government the persons that might be appointed to these positions. I certainly for one- and I attended meetings on 10 or 11 days of a sub-committee examining the whole Act but my impression is that we intended to provide that out of these recommendations the government should make the selection of inspectors, and I am somewhat surprised to learn from the member for Montreal (Mr. Ames) that this lias not been carried out, that the government, for some reason 'which the Prime Minister has not made known, had gone outside apparently of the recommendations. I think certainly that if there was any good reason why these men should not be appointed, it is just as well the country should know it, because there has been, as my friend (Mr. Ames) has said, for some time a suspicion that; everything was not right in connection with Montreal inspection; in fact it was not acceptable in the old country at all. That was the reason why I asked the right hon. gentleman with respect to whether or not complaint had been made during the past year in that regard. I was very glad indeed to hear that the difficulty complained of here had been removed, but it seems that there are still some inquiries with respect to the same thing. Whether it is owing to some particular officials there not being acceptable or not discharging their duties properly, for my part I am entirely unable to say, but I would say that it is of the utmost importance to all grain shippers that complete confidence should be established in Montreal grain inspection, not only among the people of this country but more especially among the people of the old country who are receiving the shipments of grain. Had the government followed the course laid down in the Act, and named the men recommended by the Board of Trade, I think ft would have tended to remove a good deal of the difficulty, that seems to have prevailed in the last year or two, and have established complete confidence both in the old country and in this country. But it would seem as if political or some other influence had prevailed, and no doubt the shippers and the receivers of goods from the old country will still be under the impression that tire right men are not in the right place.


Herbert Brown Ames: May I say a word in reply to my hon. friend from Halton ? He has,
I think, to a slight extent misunderstood my remarks. So far as the individual gen-

tlemen are concerned, the nominees of the government are perfectly satisfactory. The only question at issue was that the Montreal Board of Trade thought that the government could only act on their recommendation.


David Henderson: I thought so too.


Herbert Brown Ames: That is certainly what any layman would read in the law, and the board of trade were considerably chagrined at having been invited to make nominations and having their nominations turned down. They thought they should at least have been asked to make new nominations, because, without disputing the power of the government to make the appointments, they thought that the nominations should first come from the board of trade. But I wish ic to be understood that we have no criticism to make of the personnel of the board. The gentlemen composing it at present are in every way fitted for the duties they are called on to perform.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would further say that when the government received the communication of the board of trade, the Minister of Trade and Commerce thought he was bound to take exception to two of the names recommended, and he did so. But he was of the same opinion as the hon. member for Halton and the non. member for Montreal, that the government could not go outside of the recommendations of the board of trade ; and it was to clear up that point that he asked the opinion of the Minister of Justice, who advised him that he was not bound to take the recommendations of the board of trade, but that those recommendations were merely sent to them as a means of attaining an end, and that he could exercise ms own judgment, which he did. I am glad to have from the hon. member for Montreal his confirmation of the fact that no exception can be taken to the gentlemen appointed.


Herbert Brown Ames: Allow me to put one further question. Supposing a British shipper of grain is desirous of having samples of the standards that are fixed on this side of the water, in order to enable him to purchase by letter rather than by sample, can he on demand obtain such samples practically free of charge ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am informed that he can. He can have those in England without applying in Canada at all, because all the samples, when determined in Canada, are sent to England.


Herbert Brown Ames: That does not quite meet the case, which I have in mind, the case of a large flour milling firm in Cardiff, Wales, who import large quantities of wheat, including Canadian wheat. Thev recentlv applied to the department in 'Montreal for samples of grain, and received a very curt reply from the local inspector to the*effect Mr. AMES.
that there were no samples of the kind of grain they asked for. I transmitted this letter to the department, who I know appreciate the situation. What I wish to know is whether this Cardiff miller can secure samples direct from Canada; because it is probable that the samples in possession of the British exchange could not be divided for the purpose of distributing them among several millers. Would it be possible for this large milling concern-and it is greatly in the interests of Canada that they should purchase largely Canadian wheat-to produce direct from Canada their own samples of the current standards of wheat, corn and other grain ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say that I cannot give my hon. friend the information to-day, but I will have the matter inquired into, and have it given to him officially.
Culling timber,, $17,100.


David Henderson: How many of these cullers are there now ?


Uriah Wilson: And what are their duties ?
Sir tvILFRID LAuRIER. At present there are six.


David Henderson: Are they located chiefly in Quebec ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are located in Quebec. The trade which necessitated these cullers is more and more diminishing, and it will not be very long before the office will have to be abolished altogether. The position of superintendent is vacant, and we have not filled it. In fact, I think the department has prepared a Bill for next session, with a view to dealing with this subject.


John Waterhouse Daniel: What is the object of this culling ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is to measure the square timber coming to the harbour of Quebec for exportation, and to give certificates of measurement. If there is a dispute between the purchaser and the vendor as to the quantity, it is customary to have the culling done ; or if a man brings a raft down and wants to have an official statement of the measurement of the timber in it, he obtains it from the cullers. These are the principal services which they render.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is Quebec the only port where this is done ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes. It was formerly a very important office.


David Henderson: Why do the owners of the timber not pay for the measurement of it ? Why is it charged to the government ?


Wilfrid Laurier: My bon. friend bas asked me more than I can explain. 1 can only say that it lias been so for fifty years.


John Waterhouse Daniel: In, St. Jobn and everywhere else, so far as I know, there are sworn surveyors, and the expense is paid by the owners of the timber ; and one would think that would be followed in all the cities and ports.


Wilfrid Laurier: The office of the cullers has been in existence for some fifty years, and at one time I believe it was thought to be an absolute necessity. That was at a time when millions of square timber were shipped from Quebec every year. 1 remember-I think it was 1S76-the lumbermen who were then in the House agreed and pressed upon the government the diminution of the number of cullers. A certain number were superannuated, each receiving a pension of $200 a year. This year, the amount asked for pensions is diminished by $200 as one of these gentlemen has died. I think we may have here a precedent to dispose of the other cullers in the same way. My impression is, as representing the city of Quebec, that the time has about arrived when we should do something with regard to that office, either to completely abolish it or to re-east it on some other plan.


David Henderson: I notice that the government ask for the same amount-$4.200- as last year, notwithstanding the fact that one of the cullers has died.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, The amount for the payment of cullers is the same, $4,200, but the amount for superannuated cullers, which was $4,200 last year, is reduced fh $4,000 because of the death of one of these superannuated cullers.
Public works-chargeable to income-harbours and rivers-Nova Scotia, $387,260.


David Henderson: Is it the intention of the government to proceed to-night and put through all the items covered by this large vote ? We are almost defenceless on this side of the House ; we are scarcely equal to the occasion. I trust the minister will not press these matters in view of the fact that we have no Minister of Public Works in the House. I have no doubt he hopes to have one within two or three days. But in the absence of the Minister of Public Works we can hardly hope for a full explanation of these votes. Having adjourned early last night and the night before, I think we might follow in the same line, and not proceed to deal with an important vote like this with so few members present. The works represented in this list of items are scattered all, over Nova Scotia. And, the opposition not Jiaving a single representative from Nova Scotia, will be obliged to get its information from some other source than its
own members. So, it cannot be expected that we can duly criticise these items with such a thin House. I trust the minister will not take advantage of our weakness on this occasion and try to press through so many items as are covered by this vote.


William Stevens Fielding: There is no disposition to press these matters unduly. We have been getting along very pleasantly with our estimates-we certainly have no reason to complain. I would suggest that this item should not be proceeded with to-night. At the same time 1 would not like to accept the suggestion of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Henderson) that we should not proceed with any of these items unless the Minister of Public Works is in his seat. We may find it necessary, in order to keep the business of the House moving, to take up some of these votes. But, if there is any item that any hon. gentleman wishes held over, that can be done. Instead of taking up Public Works we might take up some miscellaneous items not of so controversial a character as the vote for Public Works. A number of these are merely formal votes, and, I think, will not require any particular explanation. If there is any item that is objected to, we will let it stand. And, in any case we will have an early adjournment.


David Henderson: In half an hour.


William Stevens Fielding: All right. If, on any of these items, the information is not ready, yet, as these matters are of a formal character, the committee might be good enough to let the items pass with the understanding, that, on the supplementary estimates, further information will be given if desired.
Miscellaneous-Academy of Arts, $2,000.


David Henderson: I thought that was disposed of.


William Stevens Fielding: It is not marked as passed. This is the usual grant to the Royal Canadian Academy of Arts. It is for the encouragement of the fine arts, and is paid to the president of the Royal Canadian Academy.


Uriah Wilson: In Toronto ?
. ' [DOT]


William Stevens Fielding: The Royal Canadian Academy holds its exhibition in different parts of the country. I think Toronto is the headquarters.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I do not know whether the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) is able to give me the information I desire, yet, in case he may be, I will put a question. Is it intended to introduce this session an amendment to the Criminal Law with relation to Art Unions incorporated in the old country, which are at present forbidden by our criminal law to carry on their operations in Canada ? I understood from the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) that he would



[Stage Direction]
'mo
introduce this session an amendment -which would allow art unions incorporated in the old country and known to he of high class, to do business in Canada.
William Stevens Fielding: I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) a definite answer. I am heartily in sympathy with the view he expresses. I am familiar with the subject, for it was called to my attention when I was in the old country by gentlemen of high standing connected with the Art Union. The difficulty is to draft a clause which will distinguish between genuine art unions having for their object the encouragement of art, and other concerns that are mere lotteries. My hon. friend from St. Antoine division, Montreal (Mr. Ames) will remember that there were a number of institutions operating in Montreal under the guise of art unions which did a good deal of harm. In the effort to suppres these it appears we have shut out bona fide organizations. Now, all over the country there will be found genuine objects of art which have been distributed under their system, and no harm has come, but on the contrary much good, by supplying the homes of Canada with line pictures at a moderate cost. I sympathize with the view that we should endeavour to get a form of words which wTouId allow bona fide art unions to be formed without admitting the mere lotteries. But up to the present time there has been a difficulty in getting a form of words which would serve a good purpose without at the same time admitting evil. I will remind the Minister of Justice of the matter again to see if we can carry out the object which I think the most of us will concur in.
Grant to the imperial government to cover Canada's proportion of probable losses in connection with the operation of the Pacific cable, $125,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This cable is a joint concern between the imperial and colonial governments, and this is the proportion of the loss which is chargeable to Canada. This is an estimate made of wbat the loss is likely to be. We had to pay a sum in a previous year, I do not exactly remember the amount, but I think It corresponds with this, and this estimate is based upcfn past experience.


Herbert Brown Ames: In any case, this item is one which we are in honour bound, at least to pay, whatever it may be. The amount is determined, I understand, at the end of the fiscal year, and we pay directly to the imperial government.


William Stevens Fielding: AVe pay to the commission, and the imperial government is the centre. It is an obligation, the proportion of Canada is fixed. The exact amount is not fixed, because that is a matter of business at the close of the year.


John Waterhouse Daniel: 


David Henderson: What is Canada's proportion ?


William Stevens Fielding: I would not risk saying, lest I make a mistake.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does Australia pay any proportion and what 1


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, the various colonies pay in proportion to their interest, as laid down in the arrangement. They are to he charged with the sum which will represent their share of the earnings, and of course they would share in the profits, if there were any.


Uriah Wilson: It seems to me, either that this cable is badly managed, or else it was not necessary. There seems to be something radically wrong in the whole concern.


William Stevens Fielding: Well, it was thought to he necessary as a part of a large colonial policy in which we must take a little risk. Probably it has been somewhat disappointing financially, but all these important undertakings, in their early stages, are apt to involve some loss. But we hope to do better. My hon. friend Is aware that the Postmaster General has just left for the old country in order to be present at a conference in relation to this matter, and we hope that some better arrangement may be made. However, as my hon. friend from Montreal (Mr. Ames) says, we are obligated to pay our proportion, whatever it may he, and this is the estimated amount required for that purpose.


Uriah Wilson: I do not object to pay anything that we are really and in duty bound to pay. But I would like to have a statement of the whole cost of the business. It would be much more satisfactory, before voting this large amount of money, to have the whole statement on the ' Hansard ' so that members of the House may become familiar with the transaction.


William Stevens Fielding: This is a large item, and my hon. friend's criticism is so reasonable that, if it is his wish that this item should stand, I will offer no objection.


Uriah Wilson: When may we have the information ?


William Stevens Fielding: Very soon.


Uriah Wilson: Will it be given before six o'clock on Monday ? I am here generally all the rest of the week.


William Stevens Fielding: I will promise not to .give it before six o'clock on Monday.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does this item cover our proportion of the loss in laying the cable in any way ?


William Stevens Fielding: No. This cable was laid at a very large cost, and bonds were

issued representing the capital outlay. Interest lias to be paid on that capital, and also working expenses. There is found to be a deficiency and this is Canada's estimated proportion.


Uriah Wilson: At what rate were the bonds sold ?


Mr. IT EL DING.: Oil very favourable
terms, because it was looked upon as an imperial undertaking.


David Henderson: I have an impression that Canada's share is one-sixth..


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is more than that.
of interest, as we think, the rate of interest they demand.


David Henderson: What interest is the government now paying to the province of Ontario on the trust money held by the Dominion ? Is it still 5 per cent, or has it been reduced to 4 per cent, as it was proposed at one time by the Finance Minister ?


William Stevens Fielding: I think that is one of the points in dispute. My recollection is that we are only paying 4 per cent, but their intention is that it should stand on a par with provincial subsidies, and that the interest should be 5 per cent.


David Henderson: That was my impression. about one-sixth. * In that event, the entire loss would be about three-quarters of a million dollars. The minister, I understand. is not able to inform us what the total loss is. As it is a matter of interest. perhaps the minister could give us the information on that point. I have no desire to prolong the discussion. The member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson), however, would like to have further information. Perhaps the minister would be able to tell us tonight what the entire loss is. Would it be more or less than three-quarters of a million dollars?


William Stevens Fielding: I could not give my hon. friend the information, but I think it is only reasonable the House should have the figures asked for, and I will let the item stand until the information is furnished.
Consolidation of Dominion statutes which may be paid, notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act or in the Act respecting the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, $20,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is item 231 passed, with regard to matters between the Dominion and the provinces ?


William Stevens Fielding: That item is to wind up all these old accounts between the Dominion and the provinces that have been in the hands of arbitrators. The operations are necessarily very slow. Most of the matters referred to of this class have been dealt with, and those that remain are now being considered. I hope we will see the end of it, while some of us are still on earth. I have been urging both the counsel for the Dominion and the counsel for the provinces to push it to a conclusion.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is in dispute yet ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are some questions at present respecting interest, but most of the matters have been disposed of ; some however, are still outstanding. One in particular was referred to the Exchequer Court, the matter of interest on certain balances in favour of the provinces, whether we are bound to pay them a high rate
Mr. HENDERSON, if there is to be a judicial decision given, of course, we will all learn in due time if we remain here. I always had the impression that it was really a fixture by the British North America Act that we in Ontario received 5 per cent on these trust funds. The matter of subsidy, i do not think, has anything to do with it because' the question of subsidy is not based upon the matter ot interest. The whole question, as I unsis Aether we in Ontario shall receive o per cent from the Dominion
on this trust money, on account of the common school fund, the grammar school fund and the Upper Canada building fund. , his view in regard to the question has been raised. I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that it was fixed by the British North America Act that these funds were to remain in the hands of the Dominion and that the Dominion was to account to the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada at the rate of 5 per cent. It did seem to me a very strange proposition when the hon. Minister of Finance proposed to reduce the interest to 4 per cent notwithstanding the fact that interest had fallen all over the country. This is part of the revenue of Ontario. However, I presume, if it is in court, it will have to be determined by the Supreme Court, or by whatever court it is being reviewed. I understood from the hon. Minister of Finance last year,
I think, that after the 1st of July the' proposition was to pay 4 per cent?"


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


David Henderson: I was somewhat curious to ascertain whether 5 per cent was received up to the 1st of January and whether he proposes to pay 5 per cent on the 1st of July and let the courts decide. Then, of course, if the province of Ontario is entitled to 5 per cent, the Dominion would have to make it up.


William Stevens Fielding: In any case we will have to abide by the decision of the court. My impression is that we never recognized the right of the provinces to 5 per cent, but whatever the judgment of the court s we will have to submit to it.


David Henderson: How was the 5 per cent arrived at in the first instance?


William Stevens Fielding: The claim was that the rate was 5 per cent as in the case of the subsidy accounts. The word subsidy account, although it is used sometimes in our department, is not strictly correct. There are items which appear sometimes under the head of subsidy accounts whereas they 'are not subsidies. Strictly speaking the subsidy is only the 80 cents per head, but anv balance of capital remaining at the credit of the province shall earn 5 per cent under the British North America Act. Whether this is one of the balances which should earn 5 per cent under the British North America Act is a question to be determined.


David Henderson: Of course the hon Minister of Finance is not quite correct when he says the 80 cents per head is the only subsidy. In 1884, the provinces were granted an additional subsidy.


William Stevens Fielding: Not in that form.


David Henderson: The province of Ontario was granted 8142.414.


William Stevens Fielding: Not as a subsidy.


David Henderson: The Act of parliament says it is to be paid as subsidy.


William Stevens Fielding: It is a sum placed at their credit. It is as broad as it is long.


David Henderson: $142,414 certainly was the interest on a large sum which the Dominion of Canada admitted for the purposes of a settlement might be due to the province of Ontario, not actually owing, but in order to meet the demands for better terms at that time the Dominion of Canada generously admitted that such a liability actually existed, but never proposed to pay over the actual sum. They always held themselves liable only to pay over what was equivalent to 5 per cent interest, to use the term which my hon. friend is using in the Autonomy Bill in regard to Alberta-a sum equivalent to 5 per cent. Of course, it may ,be that the hon. gentleman's intention is to reduce that subsidy of $142,414. If he do.es it is going to materially affect the revenue of the province of Ontario and I do not know of any reason why it should be done. It was a matter that was settled in 1884, and we thought it was settled for all time to come. However, the item was passed, I believe, the other night, we allowed the government $20,000 to meet the expenses in connection with this arbitration, and I hope that before another year has passed we will see the end of it.	.
Consolidation ot Dominion statutes, which may he paid, notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act or in the Act respecting the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, $20,000.


William Stevens Fielding: 


David Henderson: Who are the commissioners who are revising these statutes i They seem to be slow in their work.


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: They have been appointed for about three years and they will carry out their work, notwithstanding that they have the statutes for the last sixteen years to consolidate, in half the time which was taken at the last revision in 1886.


Uriah Wilson: What is the remuneration which will be paid? Give us the system.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friends want to get many details 1 will have to ask them to allow the matter to remain over, because, when my estimates were on,
I asked specially that that particular item should remain in order that I might make a complete statement to show the progress which had been made and also to be in a position to say when the revision will be completed. 1 will say, speaking from memory, that the revision will be completed within the next month or two with the exception of the Criminal Code and the index to the statutes. The Criminal Code is being done separately and has not progressed quite as rapidly as the other part of the work. The commissioners are the late chief justice of the Supreme Court, chairman of the board; my own deputy is the next commissioner; with him is associated Mr. Power, also of my own department, who has had large experience in these matters aud the registrar of the Supreme Court, in fact, I may say that I have taken as many officials as I could because I thought they were perhaps more competent to deal with these matters as they have had large experience in regard to the statutes. There are also engaged on this work Mr. Roscoe, of Nova Scotia; Mr. Sirois. of Quebec ; Mr. Robertson, of Collingwood and Mr. Cameron, of Goderich.


Uriah Wilson: Are there five ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Outside of my own department and the Supreme Court, I think there are four. I thought the House ought to be put in possession of the facts and that I would ask the Deputy Minister of Justice to make a complete statement to show first how far the work has progressed, the statutes that have been revised, the cost up to the present time and the estimated cost to complete the work.


Uriah Wilson: When could tint be ready?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I will have it on Monday.


Uriah Wilson: Would it not lie well to have that statement go on 1 Hansard '?


JUJSTE 9- 1905
[Stage Direction]
111-. FITZPATRICK. I think it would be well to have the item stand over. When *the matter was up before my lion, friend *the leader of the opposition (Mr. It. L. Borden) put a question or two to me and I said if he would allow it to remain over I might give him the information he asked for.
David Henderson: The matter I wish to refer to has no reference to the statement made by the hon. Minster of Justice. I think the hon. gentleman has made a satisfactory statement. I hope that this revision will be completed at as early a date as the hon. minister says it will be completed. Perhaps, if any mistake has been made at alT in regard to this matter, it has been in the fact that the government have allowed sixteen years to pass without having a revision. It may be all rigiht for lawyers who keep their statutes indexed regularly, but for the ordinary justice of the peace or layman who has occasion to refer to the statutes it is absolutely impossible to get anything out of the old" consolidated statutes or to know what tlie law of the 1-aqd is. But that is not the question I wish to refer to. I want to refer to the indexing of the statutes. Whatever the hon. Minister of Justice thinks of it, I desire to tell him that I regard the index as absolutely useless to the ordinary man and 1 believe it is next to useless to *the members of the profession.
I wanted to find the Inspection Act in this volume to-night, and I had to give it up. The index is distributed all over the statutes, one part here, another part there, and sometimes not there at all. To any one not in the legal profession the index is absolutely useless and even to the legal profession I believe the index is unsatisfactory. I trust that the index of the revised statutes will be in simpler form^so that we can make some use of it. I have bc-en told that the index to the Ontario statutes is far superior to the index to our Dominion statuses. I am referring now specially to the Acts of each session; I -had occasion recently to search for a particular Act and I was unable to find it. I showed it to a good lawyer in the House and he succeeded in finding it after some trouble, but he too complained that the index was most unsatisfactory. The Minister of Justice is so familiar with statutes that I have no doubt that what is easy to him is very difficult to ns, but nevertheless I have the idea that he will say that in his judgment the index could be vastly improved. I trust he will make a suggestion to that effect in the proper quarter.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I am in no way responsible for the index to the sessional statutes, and so far as I am personally concerned, and without wishing to criticise those who are responsible, I have to say 2304
that this index is nothing more or less -than atrociously badly done and is_ of very little use. The index to the revised statutes will proceed largely on the lines of the index of 1886. So much importance is attached to this index that I have been advised to secure the services of -a gentleman who has no connection with the commission to do the work. This gentleman has had in the past considerable experience in making indices, and I have been told that he has had some connection with the index of the revised statutes of Ontario. I am not committing myself to employ this gentleman, but I am perfectly convinced that we should get the best expert advice obtainable for the purpose of making that index. I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) that the statutes ought to be revised as nearly as possible every 10 years. It would be more convenient to the public; the revision could be made more easily and altogether we owe it to the bar and to the general public. For one reason or another this revision has been extended beyond the time originally thought proper and the result is that a great deal of work has to be done. I have asked for a report as to what has been done on the revision up to the present time, and had I known this item would come up I believe I could have had that report before the House.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it the intention of the government to submit the draft report of the commission on the revision of the statutes to a committee of this House?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The work has to be approved by the House. The commission "simply revises the statutes, giving effect to the intention of parliament and making such verbal changes as are thought advisable, but of course the roll must be submitted to and approved by parliament.


Andrew B. Ingram: The statutes are revised every ten years in Ontario and referred to a special committee appointed for that purpose.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That will be for parliament to decide next year.


David Henderson: The consolidated statutes will not be available until next session ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No.


David Henderson: The Minister of Justice agrees to a large extent in what I have said respecting the index, and I hope he will take some quiet opportunity of giving a hint to the official of the government who has charge of making the index.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think he is an official of parliament.


David Henderson: Whoever he is, I hope the hint will be conveyed to him that he ought to change the system.


Angus Alexander McLean: I think there could be an improvement made in the index of the Ontario statutes as well.


Robert Laird Borden: I agree with the Minister of Justice and with my hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) with regard to indexing the new volume of the consolidated statutes. So far as the statutes are to be regarded as a work of reference, a great deal of their value depends upon the index, for if the index is not satisfactory the labour of finding what you want is intolerable. X must say that I have never seen in any volume of consolidated statutes either of the Dominion or of the provinces-I speak more particularly of the statutes of Nova Scotia with which I am more familiar-X have never seen an index that is anything like up to the mark, and I trust there will be an improvement in the index to the revised statutes. I was under the impression, until the Minister of Justice spoke just now, that the work of the commissioners would be completed so that the revised statutes might become law during the present session.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The Criminal Code will not be ready.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the Minister of Justice expected earlier in the session that the work would be completed in time to be enacted by parliament his year.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I am afraid that cannot be done unless we deal with the Criminal Code as a separate work, and I do not think that would be advisable.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think it, would.
Expenses of litigated matters which may be paid for services in connection with litigation, $15,000.


Charles Fitzpatrick: 1 have not my memorandum on this item with me and I would not be in a position to give information on it to-night. It is the same amount that has been voted annually since 1896, and if there are any inquiries i shall be prepared to answer them on another item. .


Robert Laird Borden: The Minister of Justice might procure the memorandum and if there is anything of importance in it we might ask it on another item. If the minister would he prepared with the information on another item this one might pass.
Relief of distressed Canadians other than in the United States, $500.


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is administered by the Department of the Interior ; it has reference to distant countries.
To pay grant to Canadian Mining Insitute,


William Stevens Fielding: This is an apparent reduction but my impression is that a supplementary vote will have to he taken. The Mr. HENDERSON.
amount was originally $2,000 and was increased to $3,000, but the increase was not noted and unless there be something I am not aware of to cause the reduction there will have to be a vote in the supplements ries. It is a grant paid to the Canadian Mining Institute, which holds an annual meeting, has a library in Montreal and is a representative organization of the mining men of Canada.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice the Department of the Interior has asketL for some money for a purpose largely on the line of this mining institute to cover just such purposes as this.


William Stevens Fielding: This,, is a grant to a society just as we make grants to various public bodies under various conditions. The government do not expend it but the society expends it for what we know to be good purposes.


Andrew B. Ingram: My point is that an item was passed by the Interior Department to assist in mining and the like of that. It seems strange that they should reduce this amount to the Montreal organization if they are doing a good work in connection with mining.


William Stevens Fielding: I think the purposes are quite different. This is a society as I have explained. They have gatherings and then there are visiting bodies from the neighbouring country. I think it is recognized as a very excellent body and the money is well expended. It is not part of the Interior Department except as that department advises it.


Andrew B. Ingram: I was referring to an item of the Interior Department for obtaining technical knowledge, &c., in connection with mining.


William Stevens Fielding: We had an item with regard to certain experiments which were made with regard to the electrical smelting of ores and things like that. These experiments are being made through the Department of the Interior directly, but I think it is rather a different class of work from this.


Andrew B. Ingram: 1 have no doubt it is.
Grant to assist the 'Canadian Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis, $2,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Does this association make any report which is given to parliament ?


Mr. FISHER.: They have issued a report of their annual meeting which was distributed some days ago. I think it is sent to the members of parliament but it is not laid on the table.


David Henderson: I do not often complain of an item being too small, but I honestly think that the government in this case have struck a very low figure indeed. This question is attracting a great deal of

attention in the country and a certain amount of money is required for the gathering of information and in other ways making a strong attempt to improve the condition of The people and suppress this terrible disease. $2,000 to my mind is a very small sum when we consider the large sums which we vote for other purposes. We have just voted $2,000 for a mining institute. To my mind this is a far more worthy object. We had a discussion on the matter of tuberculosis in the early part of the session and I regret very much that the member for Ar-genteuil (Mr. Perley) who takes a deep interest in that matter is not in the House tonight. I think he would have liked very much to have been here and make a statement with reference to it. I simply express my opinion that the item is very small indeed considering the vast importance of the subject.
Some resolutions reported.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What business do you expect to take up on Monday after private business is disposed of.


William Stevens Fielding: The Militia Bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.15 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 12, 1905.