1905-01-19

[Stage Direction]
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) delivered a message from the Governor General.
Mr. SPEAKER read the message as follows :
Grey.
Government' House,
Ottawa, January 18, 1905.
The Governor General transmits to the House of Commons estimates of sums required for the service of the Dominion for the year ending June 30, 1906, and in accordance with the provisions of the B. N. A., 1867, the Governor General recommends these estimates to the House of Commons.
Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs) moved that the message of His Excellency and the estimates be referred to the Committee of Supply.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 6) to amend the Steamboat Inspection Act, 1898-Mr. L. G. McCarthy-by Mr. A. Johnston.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. KEMP-by Mr. Foster-asked :
Did the government, previous to the third day of November, 1904, give instructions permitting hay to be transported over the Intercolonial Railway free of freight charges ? If so, at what date were such instructions given ?
Hon. IT. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: Instructions were given on October G, 1904, permitting certain municipalities, under certain conditions, to have hay carried free over the Intercolonial Railway.



PAY OF THE NORTHWEST MOUNTED POLICE.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved that on Friday next the House go into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution :
1.	That it is expedient to provide that the pay of the commissioner and other members of the Northwest Mounted Police shall not exceed
the amounts following :-
Commissioner of police, per annum ..$3,000 00 Assistant commissioners, per annum ..2,000 00
" Superintendents, per annum	 1,800 00
Inspectors, per annum	 1,400 00
Surgeons and assistant surgeons, per
annum	 1,800	00
Veterinary surgeons, per annum .. .. 1,400 00
Four staff sergeants, per diem	
2	00Other staff sergeants, per diem	
1	75
Other non-commissioned officers, per
diem	
1	25*Constables, per diem	
1	.00Special constables and scouts, per diem 1 50 Buglers under 18 years of age, per diem 0 50 Working pay to artisans, per diem....	0	75
2. That the Governor in Council may authorize extra pay and allowances to be paid to
members of the force serving in the Yukon Territory or the unorganized portions of the Northwest Territories.
He said : This resolution has been submitted to His Excellency the Governor General, and he approves the same and commends it to the attention of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.
Mr. FOSTER.: I suppose that to-morrow we shall take up the estimates.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: To-morrow is not a government day. But I suppose the business in the hands of private members can hardly be ready for consideration. In that case, we shall take up the estimates, considering first the civil service.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 3.15 p.m.	'
Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: Thursday, January 19, 1905. '



QUESTIONS.


Mr. A. MARTIN asked :: 1.	Has the government decided on a site for the proposed railway station in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island ? If so, where is it to be placed ?
2.	If a site has not been decided upon, is the Minister of Railways going to the province to decide as to the proper site, and when ?
3.	If a site has been decided upon, are tenders for construction to be called for, and when ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 1.	No.
2.	Yes, at the earliest opportunity offering.
3.	Answered by number one.



VOTERS' LISTS FOR MANITOBA CONSTITUENCIES.

Mr. W. J. ROCHE asked :: Where were the voters' lists for the respective constituencies of Marquette, Selkirk, Macdonald, Portage la Prairie, Provench'er, Dauphin, Lisgar, Souris, Brandon and Winnipeg printed ?


Right Hon.   S@: Voters' lists for the constituencies of Marquette, Selkirk, Macdonald, Portage la Prairie, Provencher, Dauphin, Lisgar, Souris, Brandon and Winnipeg were printed by the King's Printer for Canada, at Ottawa, and his imprint is upon all he printed.



SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES.

Mr. HYMAN.: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report with all convenient speed, lists of members to compose, the select standing committees ordered by this House on Thursday, the twelfth instant, as follows:-
No. 1.-ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS. Messieurs
Alcorn,
Barker,
Belcourt,
Bennett,
Bergeron,
Boyce,
Broder,
Bureau,
Car veil,
Clarke (Essex), Dubeau,
Dugas,
Emmerson,
Fitzpatrick,
Lapointe,
Laurence,
Lavergne (Montmagny), Lemieux,
Lennox,
Lewis,
Logan,
Macdonald,
McCarthy (Simcoe), MoCoM,
Mclsaac,
Monk,
Mulock (Sir William), Northrup,

Geoffrion,	Piche,
German,	Porter,
Gervais,	Pringle,
Grant,	Rivet,
Guthrie,	Sifton,
Haggart,	Stockton,
Hall,	Tisdale,
Lancaster,	Ward.-44.
No. 2.-	-ON EXPIRING LAWS. Messieurs
Archambault,	Herron,
Avery,	Jackson (Elgin),
Barr,	lamont,.
Black,	McCool,
Eland,	Martin (Queen's, P.E.I),
Bourbonnals,	* Mayrand,
Boyer,	Morin,
Carney,	Paquet,
Chisholm,	Parent,
Copp,	Seagram,
Dubeau,	Talbot (Bellechasse),
Ethier,	Turgeon,
Finlayson, Gauvreau,	Wilson (Russell).-27.
And that the	Quorum of the said Committee
do consist of Seven Members.	
No. 3-ON RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES. Messieurs	
Adamson,	Laurier (L'Assomption),
Alcorn,	Lavergne,
Ames,	(Drum. & Arth.),
Archambault,	Lavergne
Armstrong,	(Montmagny),
Avery,	Law,
Barker,	Lefurgey,
Barr,	Lemieux,
Beauparlant,	Lennox,
BSland,	Leonard,
Belcourt,	Lewis,
Bennett,	Logan,
Bergeron,	Loggie,
Bickerdike,	Macdonald,
Blatn,	Macdonell,
Bland,	MacLaren,
Bole,	Maclean
Borden (Sir Frederick), (Lunenburg),	
Bourassa,	Maclean (York, S.),
Bourbonnals,	McCarthy
Boyer,	(Calgary),
Brabazon,	McCarthy
Broder,	(Simcoe,)
Brodeur,	McOoll,
Brown,	McCool,
Bruneau,	McIntyre,
Bureau,	Mclsaac,
Burrows,	McKenzie
Caldwell,	(C. Breton, N.),
Calvert,	McLean
Campbell,	(Queen's, P.E.I.),
Carvell,	McLennan,
Chisholm,	Marelle^ (Bagot),
Christie,	Marcil
Clare,	i(Bonaventure),
Clarke (Essex), Martin	
Clarke (Toronto), (Queen's, P.E.T.),	
Clements,	Mayrand,
Cochrane,	Miller,
Oockshutt,	Monk,
Conmee,	Morin,
Copp,
Costigan,
Crawford,
Crocket,
Danieil,
Dt lisle,
Derbyshire, * Desjardins,
Dubeau,
Dugas,
Dyrnent,
Elson,
Emmerson,
Ethier,
Fielding,
Finlay,
Finlayson,
Fitzpatrick,
Forget,
Fortier,
Foster,
Fowler,	[DOT]
Gallery,
Galliher,
Ganong,
Gauvreau,
Geoffrion,
German,
Gervais,
Girard,
Gladu,
Gordon,
Grant,
Greenway,
Gunn,
Guthrie,
Haggart,
Hall,
Barty,
Henderson,
Herron,
Hughes,
(King's, P.E.X.), Hughes (Victoria), Hunt,
Hyman,
Ingram,
Jackson (Selkirk), Johnston
(Cape Breton, S.), Johnston
(Lambton),
Kemp,
Kennedy,
Lake,
Lalor,
Lamont,
Lancaster,
Lanctot,
Lapointe,
Laurence,
Mulock
(Sir William), Northrup,
Oliver,
Osier,
Parmelee,
Paquet,
Parent,
Per ley,
Pichd,
Porter,
Power,
Prdfontaine,
Pringle,
Proulx,
Ratz,
Reid (Grenville), Riley,
Rivet,
Roche (Halifax), Roche (Marquette), Ross (Rimouski), Ross
(Yale-Cariboo),
Rousseau,
Savoie,
Schell (Glengarry), Schell (Oxford), Scott,
Sifton,
Sinclair,
Sloan,
Smith (Nanaimo), Sproule,
Staples,
Stewart,
Stockton,
Sutherland (Oxford),
Talbot
(Bellechasse),
Talbot
(Strathcona),
Telford,
Thompson,
Tisdale,
Tobin,
Turgeon,
Turriff,
Walsh,
Ward,
Watson,
White,
Wilmot,
Wilson
i(Len'x & Adding.), Wilson (Russell), Worthington,
Wright (Muskoka), Wright (Renfrew), Zimmerman.-186.
And that the Quorum of said Committee do do consist of Twenty-live Members.
No. 4- ON MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS.
Alcorn,
Ames,
Avery,
Beland,
Belcourt,
Bennett,
Messieurs :
Hunt,
Jackson (Elgin), Jackson (Selkirk), Kennedy,
Lake,
Lalor,

Black,
Bole,
Bourbonnais,
Boyce,
Brabazon,
Broder,
Brodeur,
Bruneau,
Caldwell,
Calvert,
Chisholm,
Christie,
Clements,
Cochrane,
Conmee,
'Crawford,
Crocket,
Cy.r,
Daniel,
Desjardins,
Dugas,
Dyment,
Elson,
Ethier,
Fitzpatrick,
Galliher.
Gauvreau,
Girard,
Gladu, Gordon, Greenway, Gunn, Guthrie, Harty,
Lavergne
(Drummond & Arth.), LeBlanc,
Lemieux,
Logan,
Maedonell,
Maclean (Lunenburg), Maclean (York S.), McCool,
Mclsaac,
McLean
(Queen's, P.E.I.), Martin
(Queen's, P.E.I.), Martin (Wellington), Meigs,
Monk.
Morin,
Farent,
Power.
Pringle.
Proulx,
Ross (Yale-Cariboo), Schaffner,
Schell (Glengarry), Scott,
Sloan,
Talbot (Bellechasse), Thompson,
Tobin.
Turgeon,
Turriff.
Walsh,
White,
Hughes (King's, P.E.I.), Worthington-79.
And that the quorum of the said committee do consist of Ten members.
No. 5-ON STANDING ORDERS.
Messieurs :
Black.
Brabazon,
Brown.
Calvert,
Chisholm,
Clare,
Clements,
Copp,
Demers (St. John), Finlay,
Finlayson,
Fortier,
Gallery,
Galliher,
Grant,
Guthrie,
Hall.
Hughes (Victoria), Ingram,
Lake,
Lamont,
Lancaster,
Law,
Lefurgey,
Maclean (Lunenburg), Macpherson,
McCarthy (Calgary), McIntyre,
Mclsaac,
Marcile (Bagot), Martin (Wellington), Meigs,
Morin.
Reid (Restigouche), Roche (Halifax), Roche (Marquette), Ross (Rimouski), Smith (Nanaimo), Staples.
Stewart,
Thompson.
Turgeon,
White.
Wilmot,
Laurier (L'Assomption), Wilson Lavergne	(Lennox & Addington),
(Drummond & Arth.).Wright (Muskoka), Lavergne (Montmagny), Wright (Renfrew)-50.
And that the quorum of the said committee do consist of Seven members.
No. 6.-ON PRINTING. Messieurs
Bennett,
Bergeron,
Clarke (Toronto), Cyr.
Maclean (York,South), McColl,
Marcil (Bonaventure), Oliver,
Dyment,
Gervais.
Henderson.
Hughes (Victoria), Johnston (Cape Breton, South),
Johnston (Lambton), Lavergne
(Drummond & Arth.),
Parmelee,
Pichb,
Prefontaine,
Roche (Marquette), Ross (Yale-Caribou), Scott,
Sutherland (Oxford), Taylor,
Tisdale.-24.



NO. 7.-ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs :
Adamson,
Ames,
Barker,
Belcourt,
Bennett,
Bergeron,
Bickerdike,
Blain,
Borden (Sir Frederick), Burrows,
Campbell,
Carney,
Cash.
Clare,
Clark (Essex),
Clarke (Toronto), Cochrane,
Cockshutt,
Costigan.
Daniel,
Demers (St. John), Desjardins,
Emmerson,
Fielding,
Fitzpatrick,
Foster,
Fowler,
Geoffrion,
German,
Greenway,
Haggart,
Henderson,
Hughes
(King's, P.E.I.), Hughes (Victoria), Hyman,
Jackson (Selkirk), Kemp,
Kennedy.
Lancaster,
Lapointe,
Laurence,
Laurier (L'Assomption), Law,
LeBlanc,
Lennox,
Leonard,
Loggie,
Macdonald,
McColl,
Mclsaac,
McKenzie (Bruce), McKenzie (Cape Breton, North),
Monk.
Northrup,
Oliver,
Piche,
Pickup,
Porter,
Pringle,
Reid (Restigouche), Riley,
Rivet,
Roche (Halifax),
Savoie,
Scott,
Sifton,
Sinclair,
Sloan,
Smith (Wentworth), Sproule,
Stewart,
Taylor,
Ward,
Wilson (Lennox & Addington). Zimmerman.-75.
And that the quorum of the said committee do consist' of Twenty-one members.
No. 8.-ON BANKING AND COMMERCE. Messieurs :
Adamson,
Ames,
Archambault,
Armstrong,
Avery,
Barker.
Barr,
Beauparlant,
Bdland,
Belcourt,
Bennett,
Bergeron,
Bickerdike,
Blain,
Bole,
Borden (Sir Frederick), Bourassa,
Boyce,
Brown,
Hyman,
Ingram,
Johnston
Cape Breton, South), Kemp,
Kidd,
Lake.
Lalor,
Lanctot,
Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Lavergne
(Drummond & Arth.), Law,
Lefurgey,
Lemieux,
Lewis,
Loggie,
Lovell,
Maedonell,
Charles Smith Hyman: Bruneau,	.
Bureau,
Burrows,
Caldwell,
Calvert,
Campbell,
Carney,
Cash,
Clark (Essex),
Clarke (Toronto),
Clements,
Cochrane,
Cockshutt,
Conmee,
Copp,
Costigan,
Delisle,
Demers (Ldvis).
Demers (St. John),
Derbyshire,
Dubeau,
Emmerson,
Fielding,
Finlay,
Forget,
Fortier,
Foster,
Fowler,
Ghllery,
Galiliher,
Ganong,
Gauvreau,
Geoff rion,
Gervais,
Gladu,
Gordon,
Grant,
Greenway,
Gunn,
Haggart,
Hall,
Harty,
Henderson,
Herron,
Hughes
(King's, P.E.I.).
Hughes (Victoria),
And that the quorum of the said committee do consist of Twenty-one members.
Christie,	Miller,
Clare,	Morin,
Clements,	Mulock (Sir William).,
Cochrane,	Oliver,
Conmee,	Paquet,
Copp,	Parent,
Crawford, *	Pickup,
Crocket,	Proulx,
Cyr,	Ratz,
Delisle,	Reid (Grenville),
Demers (LGvis),	Roche i(Marquette),
Derbyshire,	Ross (Rimouski),
Desjardins,	Ross (Tale-Cariboo),
Dugas,	Rousseau,
Elson,	Savoie,
Ethier,	Schaffner,
Finlay,	Schell (Glengarry),
Fisher,	Schell (Oxford),
Gauvreau,	Scott,
Girard,	Seagram,
Gordon,	Sinclair,
Gunn,	Smith (Nanaimo),
Guthrie,	Smith (Wentworth),
Henderson,	Sproule,
Herron,	Staples,
Hughes (King's, P.E.D, Talbot (Belleehasse),	
Hughes (Victoria),	Talbot (Strathcona),
Hunt,	Tayilor,
Ingram,	Telford,
Jackson (Elgin),	Thompson,
Jackson (Selkirk),	Turgeon,
Johnston (Lambton),	TurriH,
Kennedy,	Walsh,
Lake,	Watson,
Lalor,	White,
Lament,	Wilmot,
Li no tot.	Wilson
Iicurence,	Len'x & Adding.),
I.aurier	Wilson (Russell),
(L'Assomptlon),	Worthington,
Lavergne	Wright (Muskoka),
(Drum. & Arth.),	Wright
LeBlanc,	(Renfrew).-122.
Ienmox,	
And that the Quorum of said Committee do consist of Twelve members.



INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.

[Stage Direction]
McCarthy (Calgary), McCarthy (Simcoe), McIntyre,
Mclsaac,
McKenzie (Bruce), McLennan,
Marcil (Bonaventfrre), Mayrand,
Miller.
Monk,
Morin,
Osier,
Parmelee,
Paterson,
Perley,
Pickup,
Porter,
Power,
Prefontaine,
Ratz,
Reid (Grenville),
Reid (Restigouche), Riley,
Roche (Halifax),
Ross (Rimouski), Rousseau,
Savoie,
Schell (Glengarry). Sifton,
Sinclair,
Smith (Wentworth), Sproule,
Stewart,
Stockton,
Sutherland (Oxford), Talbot (Belleehasse), Taylor,
Telford,
Thompson,
Tisdale,
Tobin,
Ward,
Wilmot,
Wilson
(Lennox & Adding.), Worthington,
Wright (Renfrew), Zimmerman.-129.
No. 9.-ON AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION.
Messieurs
Adamson,	Leonard,
Archamhault,	Lewis,
Armstrong,	Logan,
Barr,	Lovell,
Beaupanlant,	Macdonald,
Beland,	MacLaren,
Blain,	Maclean (Lunenburg),
Bland,	McOoll,
Bourassa, *	MeCool,
Bourbonnais,	McIntyre,
Boyer,	McKenzie (Bruce),
Brabazon,	McKenzie
Broder,	(Cape Breton, N.),
Brown,	McLean
Bureau,	(Queen's, P.E.I.),
Burrows,	McLennan,
Caldwell,	Marcile (Bagot),
Calvert,	Martin
Carvell,	(Queen's, P.E.I.),
Cash,	Martin (Wellington),
Chisholm,	Meigs^
Resolution respecting the inspection and sale of seeds was read the first and second time and agreed to.
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 7) respecting the inspection and sale of seeds.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

['Certainly, he prepares the manuscript of his own report. The fault is not with the departments so far as I know. I will see the Auditor General, and perhaps I can give the House more information to-morrow. But I cannot hold out any hope of an early presentation of the Report of the Auditor General.']
Hon.   WM@: PATERSON (Minister of Customs) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
Hon., GEO. JE. FOSTER. Before the House goes into Committee of Supply, there are two points upon which I would like to have information, if convenient to the ministers. I noticed in newspapers of a



late date a statement that the proposed steamship communication, with mutual subsidies I suppose, between Canada and Mexico, had run up against some difficulty. The minister who has had that matter in charge is in his place, and I would like to know how it stands at present.


Sir WM. MU LOCK (Postmaster General).: Last spring the Mexican government agreed with the Canadian government to grant a subsidy of $50,000 in gold towards establishing two lines of steamers between Canada and Mexico, one on the Pacific ocean and the other on the Atlantic. The Canadian government, in pursuance of that understanding, asked and obtained a vote from this parliament of $50,000 last session, and the Mexican government did the same. I understand that the Department of Trade and Commerce invited tenders for both services, and received tenders ; but the tenders were quite in excess of the total sum of $100,000 gold voted by the two governments.


George Eulas Foster: Were they monthly services ?


William Mulock: Yes, monthly sailings. Negotiations I think, were entered into by the tenderers for the Pacific servicespeaking from memory, I think the names were Weir & Co., of Glasgow-with a view of making, some modifications in the specifications and details. A representative of that company, after consulting with the Minister of Trade and Commerce, left him, expressing his intention of proceeding to Mexico and presenting some request to the Mexican government. I am not aware if he has yet had this interview with the Mexican government. But when I was in Mexico in the month of December last, the Mexican government informed me that they were much disappointed at the amount of money demanded for the service on the Pacific ; and without explaining to me what they had definitely in view, they did suggest that the proposition for completing that contract should stand over for a short time until Sir Weetman Pearson, a very eminent engineer, a man who is carrying on very large works in Mexico for the government, should reach Mexico, and then the government of that country would discuss the subject with him with a view to proceeding with the matter. They have no desire to withdraw from it, but they seein to think that perhaps they could make some arrangements through him that would be helpful to the scheme in view. But they expressed a willingness to grant at their approaching Congress another subsidy of $50,000 in gold, if we would do the same, for the establishment of a line on the Atlantic. That would mean that the Mexican government would contribute $100,000 in gold and we would contribute $100,000 in gold, by which we would get at least a Mr. FOSTER.
monthly sailing on the Atlantic and on the Pacific. Therefore, as X understand it, there is nothing now in the way of our completing an arrangement for the Atlantic if we can get it within the subsidy ; and the Mexican goveriynent think they will be able to arrange for the completion of a similar service on the Pacific. I think we may hopefully regard the prospects and that we may iiave both services in operation within a reasonable time.



George Eulas Foster: I do not happen to understand it myself, and on asking some of my fellow members I find them to be quite as much in the dark with reference to the subject as I am, but we see frequent references in the papers to an arbitration taking place between the Dominion Government Railways and the Grand Trunk Railway Company. Under what authority is that arbitration proceeding, and will the results, in so far as the evidence is concerned, toe presented to the House when the arbitration is finished ? Is it by commission or by virtue of the agreements themselves between the two parties ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The arbitration in question is being held by agreement between the government and the Grand Trunk Railway Company. The question was submitted mutually to the arbitration of three gentlemen. This occurred in 1903-I think in the fall of 1903-and the arbitration has been continuing, but the question as to submitting the evidence to this House has not been considered by myself; it has not come before me at all yet. It is sub judice at the present time.


George Eulas Foster: Then as I understand it this is something that has taken place by virtue of the action of this government?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Mr. HAGGART.: I understand that there was a difference or dispute between the Intercolonial Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway Company as to the carrying out of the contract entered into between the Intercolonial Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway. I understand that the government entered an action in reference to it. Is this arbitration being conducted by a committee or parties appointed by the Exchequer Court, or by any other court, for the purpose of taking evidence instead of leaving the question to the courts to decide ?


Hon. CHAS. FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice).: This is an arbitration in respect of differences that have arisen between the Grand Trunk Railway Company and the government under diverse contracts entered into at different times. One of them was

entered into in 1879 in connection with the purchase of the line of railway from RiviSre du Loup to Point L&vis, and another has arisen out of the purchase of the extension of the line from Levis to St. Hyacinthe. The contracts themselves provided for a reference to arbitrators of any disputes that might arise under the contracts. There has been no action entered by the Crown, but the Crown has had claims against the Grand Trunk Railway arising out of what they claim to be the non-fulfilment by the company of these contracts. I am speaking from memory but I think it would be better that I should bring down the references.


Mr.   POSTER@: Yes.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That would be more satisfactory because this occurred two years ago and i cannot recollect the particular terms of the references.


Mr. BARKER.: I think that last session the hon. Minister of Justice did bring down several papers relating to these arbitrations.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not remember.


Samuel Barker: Or perhaps the right hon. First Minister did, and in these papers I think there was a very considerable claim made by the government in respect to the diversion iby the Grand Trunk Railway Company of traffic that ought to have been given by the Grand Trunk Railway Company to the Intercolonial Railway.


Charles Fitzpatrick: They arose out of the agreements in connection with the purchase of the Drummond County Railway.


PURCHASE OF THE CANADA ATLANTIC RAILWAY.
John Graham Haggart: I notice by the papers the alleged purchase by the Grand Trunk Railway Company of the Canada Atlantic Railway. I wish to know whether the government are parties to that contract, or if they have entered into any arrangement with the Grand Trunk Railway Company for running Intercolonial Railway trains over that part of the Canada Atlantic Railway which has been purchased by the Grand Trunk Railway, or whether this is a transaction entirely between the Grand Trunk Railway Company and the Canada Atlantic Railway Company?


Wilfrid Laurier: As far as we know it is entirely between the Grand Trunk Railway Company and the Canada Atlantic Railway. The government has nothing to do with it.
Motion agreed to and House went into Committee of Supply.
Charges of management, $241,400.


George Eulas Foster: If the hon. minister would be kind enough to leave item No. 1 as I should like to have the hon. the Minister of 34
Finance (Mr. Fielding) here when it is taken up, and allow us to go on with No. 2, we may get through with that.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: Item No. 1 stands.
Civil government-Governor General's Secretary's office, salaries, $11,450.


George Eulas Foster: What changes are there?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Cus-tims).: There is an increase of $200.


George Eulas Foster: Where is that ?


William Paterson: Page eleven, I think.


Charles Marcil: Page eight.


George Eulas Foster: I have the page, but I have not the names of the parties who are receiving the increases or the reasons why the increases are granted.


John Graham Haggart: I would suggest that instead of passing them en bloc we follow the course we always pursue and pass every item separately.


William Paterson: There are four statutory increases. Does the hon. gentleman want to know the names ?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, we are very anxious to have all the information.


William Paterson: The names have not been asked for before and the officer has not therefore asked for them but he can do so. These are four of the clerks who are employed there and,who are getting statutory increases.


George Eulas Foster: $50 each?


William Paterson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: To which they are entitled?


William Paterson: To which they are entitled.


George Eulas Foster: Has there been a report from the chief of the branch on the matter?


William Paterson: The Governor General's secretary applied for the increases.
Clerical and other assistance, $2,000.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase of $100 in this and we should like to have some explanation of it.


William Paterson: My opinion is that some of the officers who are paid out of contingencies are getting an increase.


George Eulas Foster: I do not want to be at all unreasonable but every department in asking for supplies should at least give a schedule of the changes in the votes so that the minister who has the estimates in charge will be able to give information.


William Paterson: I have no doubt that where a minister is at the head of the department that will be done.


George Eulas Foster: Sometimes even the somewhat irresponsible departments have to be curbed a little.
Printing and stationery, $1,200 ; sundries,


George Eulas Foster: How much of the vote for sundries was spent last year ?
'Mr. PATERSON. I cannot tell that.


George Eulas Foster: That is also a piece of information which sometimes is very valuable, for a department may perhaps be running along with $2,000 or $3,000 more in the estimates than they are using and this is a great temptation to extravagance.
Privy Council office-salaries, &c., $34,800.


Wilfrid Laurier: I shall read a list of the officers who come under this vote. There is no explanation to give as to the ehief clerk.


George Eulas Foster: The same chief clerk Mr. McGee ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, the same, Mr. McGee. The assistant clerk, Mr. Boudreau, who is also acting as my chief private secretary receives a statutory increase of $50. The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, Mr. Lamothe, I think is at the maximum of his class, $2,500. There are two chief clerks who receive statutory increases of $50 each. They are Mr. Bennetts, an old employee, and Mr. Foley, who acts as assistant to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery. There are two first-class clerks at $1,500. * There is here a decrease of $350 owing to the fact that an entire change has been made. The chief clerks last year were Mr. Lelievre, who has been transferred to the Senate, and I think Mr. Foley who has been promoted, and instead of giving the salaries that were paid last year we give $1,500 which is about the minimum Of the second-class clerks two are at the maximum so there is no increase in their case but the other seven second-class clerks receive the statutory increase, and it is the same with the junior classes. The allowance for the private secretaries is the same. There are two messengers instead of four. It would appear that there is to be some economy here, but I am sorry to say I do not deserve any credit for that as there is no change in reality.
I must say that I am not yet up to all the mysteries of the Civil Service Act, but I understand from Mr. McGee that the two junior messengers whom we have are not permanent and cannot be paid out of the general fund, but have to be paid out of the contingent fund so that although there is a decrease of $1,000 in this vote there is an increase of $1,000 in the contingencies. The Auditor General would not pay these officials out of the vote for last year.


George Eulas Foster: The right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) has explained that these increases have been statutory in-


William Paterson: creases. Is it the rule now that all clerks get their regular statutory increases if their duties have been reasonably well performed, until they reach their maximum ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I can only say that in my own department we have given statutory increases to all except one man whom we thought did not deserve the increase. The others who were satisfactory have received them.


George Eulas Foster: That is in the right hon. gentleman's own department ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.
Contingencies, clerical and other assistance, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act, $4,000.


Samuel Barker: What is covered in this ease by that expression ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.'


Wilfrid Laurier: This is to cover expenditures which have been going on for the last 15 years. Perhaps my hon. friend will remember that there is some clerical work being done in the Privy Council Department by parties who do not come technically within the rules of the Civil Service Act and they have not been disturbed.
Department of Justice-salaries, $41,415.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase of $400 in the item for cliief clerks, but there are four chief clerks.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There are four chief clerks of whom two, Mr. Power and Mr. Fraser have got even beyond the maximum of their class, they are paid $2,800 under a special vote which I obtained a couple of years ago so that so far as these are concerned, there is no statutory increase. The other two Messrs. Hecker and Gisborne received the statutory increase. The statutory increases in my department are always granted upon the report of the deputy head of the department.


George Eulas Foster: As to satisfactory service?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.
Nine first-class clerks, $14,97S.


Charles Fitzpatrick: These are Messrs. Leslie, Cote, Chisholm, Narraway, darke, Lane, Pownall, Muffin and Yerret, each of whom receives the usual statutory increase of $50 except Mr. Leslie, who receives $25, which will bring him to the maximum of his class.
Five second-class clerks, $6,650.


Charles Fitzpatrick: These are Messrs. Creighton, Burpee, Harris, Belanger and Miss Armstrong, who each receive $50 increase except Mr. Creighton, who gets $25, which will bring him up to the maximum of his class.
Three junior second-class clerks, $2,637.50.


Charles Fitzpatrick: These are the same as before, except that each receives the statutory increase of $50.


George Eulas Foster: Each of two, because the increase is only $100.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That must be a mistake.
Allowance for private secretary to the minister, $600.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is the usual amount.
Allowance for private secretary to the Solicitor General, $600.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the minister of that department ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The Minister of Justice is supposed to be the minister, but since the appointment of a Solicitor General, he has always been considered entitled to a private secretary.


George Eulas Foster: So that the minister really has two.


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, one private secretary to the Solicitor General and one to the minister.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the Solicitor General now ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The Hon. Mr. Le mieux.
Two messengers, $1,340.


Charles Fitzpatrick: These are Messrs. Morse and Picken, with the usual statutory increase of $50 each.
Department of Justice, contingencies-clerical and other assistance, $2,500.


Charles Fitzpatrick: This is to provide for payment of extra clerks and messengers and for copying or other work which may be required in emergencies, such as press of work, vacations and sickness of the regular staff, &c. The amount expended i" 1903-4 was $1,953.26.
Department of Justice, contingencies-printing and stationery, $4,200.


Charles Fitzpatrick: This is to cover stationery, printing and binding of statutes, books, forms, Ac., used by the department. The amount expended in 1903-4 was $6,117.49.


George Eulas Foster: How does the minister defend the expenditure of more than the vote ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: That I cannot explain.


George Eulas Foster: Where did you get the money ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: My bon. friend can explain how it was got in the old days.


George Eulas Foster: We have a new regime now. Will the minister make a note of that ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I will.
Department of Justice, contingencies-sundries, $5,700.


George Eulas Foster: What of that was expended ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The principal payments are for travelling expenses, telegrams, postage, newspapers, telephone messages, cab-hire and other petty expenses. The amount expended in 1903-04 was $5,136.32.


George Eulas Foster: May be you cribbed a little of that.
Department of the Secretary of State-two chief clerks, $4,500.


George Eulas Foster: Is one of these at the maximum ?


William Paterson: Yes, and the other has
the statutory increase.
Seven first-class clerks, $12,650.


George Eulas Foster: There must have been some changes here ?	*


William Paterson: Yes, one of the first-olass has been promoted to a chief clerkship.


George Eulas Foster: How did the vacancy come in the chief clerkship ?


William Paterson: By the retirement of Mr. Audet, the keeper of the records, who was superannuated.


George Eulas Foster: At what age ?


William Paterson: Over 60.


George Eulas Foster: Was he iu good health or how came It that he was superannuated ?


William Paterson: He asked for superannuation some time ago on account of ill-health.


George Eulas Foster: And a first-class clerk was put into the vacancy ?


William Paterson: Yes, and of course at a lower salary.


George Eulas Foster: Who was the first-class clerk 1


William Paterson: Mr. Colson.
Eight second-class clerks, $11,225.


George Eulas Foster: What are these ?


William Paterson: The promotion of course left a vacancy to which a second-class clerk went up at a lower salary.


George Eulas Foster: Who was promoted V


William Paterson: Mr. Roy.


George Eulas Foster: What is the practice of this department as regards statutory in-

creases ? Are they given on the recommendation of the deputy ?


William Paterson: Yes. All who were entitled to the increase were granted it.
Seven junior second-class clerks, $6,500.


Mr.   POSTER@: There is one clerk less here.


William Paterson: We are able to dispense with one.


Mr.   POSTER@: That is a good example.
Contingencies, Secretary of State's Department-clerical assistance, $2,655.


Mr.   POSTER@: We are not out of the woods yet. Here comes an increase.


William Paterson: That is caused by the appointment of an extra clerk who gets $600 with. the statutory increase, and there has been one clerk dropped.


George Eulas Foster: Is this just for the year, or will it be permanent'?


William Paterson: It will probably continue.


George Eulas Foster: It is paid under Civil Service Rules ?


William Paterson: Yes, he has passed the examination.
Board of Civil Service Examiners and other expenses under the Civil Service Act, including $400 for the secretary and $150 for a clerk, all of which sums may be paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $3,000.


Mr.   POSTER@: Who are the examiners now ?


William Paterson: There has been no change in ten years.


Mr.   POSTER@: How many applicants are now on the list ?


William Paterson: I am told there were 900 applicants this year for examination.


George Eulas Foster: Did they all get through ?


William Paterson: I cannot say. The examiners' report will show that.


Mr. BERGERON.: I happened to go through the Library and found there an interesting book called the ' Royal Tour in Canada ', in 1901, describing the tour of their Royal Highnesses, the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York, by Mr. Joseph Pope, C.M.G. I asked for a French copy, but there was none to be had. I suppose that books of that kind are sent around to different libraries. I was anxious to have a French copy


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not understanding English ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Not altogether for that reason. I found that the work had been translated into French a couple of years ago, Mr. FOSTER.
but the French edition is not yet printed. Why has not this been done and the book put in form so that it may be sent around to the different libraries, as has been done with the English copy ?


William Paterson: The Printing Bureau had so much to do with the voters' lists and other work that this work was held over, but the intention is to have it done as soon as possible.
Department of Public Printing and Stationery-salaries, $40,700.


Samuel Barker: Are you creating another second-class clerk ? ,


William Paterson: Yes.


Samuel Barker: Have you followed the procedure prescribed by the Act ?


William Paterson: Yes.


Samuel Barker: Has'the deputy minister reported on the necessity of this clerkship ?


William Paterson: Yes.


Samuel Barker: And has that report been approved by the minister ?


William Paterson: Undoubtedly.
Mr. FOSTER, There is an increase in the item of junior second-class clerks.


William Paterson: One messenger has been made a junior clerk.


George Eulas Foster: Then it is proposed to do with one messenger less ?


William Paterson: Yes.
Department of Public Printing, &c.-cleaning, $2,500.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase. What has happened that they require so much more cleaning up ?


William Paterson: It is not that there is more cleaning up required, but that there has been an increase in the pay given to the charwomen of from 50 cents to 75 cents a day.


George Eulas Foster: Was the increase made just before the elections ?	.


William Paterson: It was a general advance. It was not confined to this department.


George Eulas Foster: I think it looks suspicious to see a large increase just before the elections.


William Paterson: It was about six months ago.
Mr. FOSTER, Just about the time preparations for the elections were being made.


William Paterson: The next is the Department of the Interior, but we cannot go on with that, as the minister (Mr. Sifton) is not here.


George Eulas Foster: When is the minister expected to be home ?


William Paterson: About the 28th, I am told.'
Office of the Auditor General-salaries, $51,787.50.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There is an increase here.


William Paterson: Provision is made for an additional chief clerk.


Samuel Barker: I suppose that this chief clerk was added in the regular way ?


Mr PATERSON.: I have no doubt that the Auditor General would see to it that it was done in the regular way.


George Eulas Foster: What is the meaning of the change ?


William Paterson: I will give the hon. gentlenmni (Mr. Foster)1 the explanation that the Auditor General has given me. There is provision for an additional chief clerk, that is the one we are discussing now. He is expected to do work in connection with payments for the transcontinental railway. We need to have an additional officer in connection with the auditing of those accounts. There is also provision for eleven third-class clerks, who are not, however, to be new employees, they are now temporary, and are not to have their pay increased. Those eleven are in the service now, but he thinks it would be more desirable to place them upon the permanent list.


George Eulas Foster: But that explanation requires a modification, because you see that the eleven third-class clerks are to cost at first $6,050 ; there is a reduction of only $4,000 in clerical and other assistance; Now are those third-class clerks ? They must be, when they are put in the clerical list, or they must be getting a larger salary than they did last year. Have you the names of those ?


William Paterson: No.


George Eulas Foster: I think probably you had better let that stand and get full information.


William Paterson: He told me he would be here, but he is not.


George Eulas Foster: I suppose we are to conclude that all this great interest in auditing is due to the Grand Trunk Pacific ?


William Paterson: No, not entirely.


George Eulas Foster: Who is to be the new chief clerk ?


William Paterson: The Auditor General has full power to appoint him. I have given all the information the auditor seemed to think was necessary.


George Eulas Foster: I think this item had better stand.


William Paterson: Then we will take Northwest Mounted Police.
Item allowed to stand.
Office of the Comptroller of the Northwest Mounted Police - salaries and contingencies, $16,225.


George Eulas Foster: The same comptroller ?


Wilfrid Laurier: The same comptroller, Mr. Fred. White. The chief clerk is the same, first-class clerk is the same-there are no changes except in the statutory increases.
Department of Finance and Treasury Board-salaries, $57,865.


George Eulas Foster: Is Mr. Courtney the deputy minister yet ?


William Paterson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: I understood that he was expressing a desire to be relieved.


William Paterson: He is still deputy minister.


George Eulas Foster: There was some one who went'in there and went out again.


William Paterson: There was a Mr. Ross who was in there for a time. There are five chief clerks; two increases, I suppose they are statutory increases.


George Eulas Foster: Who are the chief clerks now ?


William Paterson: Mr. Fowler, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Boville, Mr. Treadwell and Mr. Low.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase of $600 in first-class clerks- what is the explanation ?


William Paterson: I have not an explanation before me that is satisfactory to myself. The department is satisfied there is no increase asked for except the statutory increase. But I cannot explain that now, we will get it for you later.


George Eulas Foster: Better let it stand. I am sure it is not the fault of the Minister of Finance, it is the fault of the minister who is in charge. Then there are two messengers, showing an increase of $100. Clerical and other assistance, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $5,000. What is done with that 7
Mr. -PATERSON. These two messengers have not passed their civil service examination.


George Eulas Foster: I think we had better let that stand, as the minister has not an explanation.
Item allowed to stand.
Department of Customs-salaries, $67,385.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the assistant com. missioner ?


William Paterson: Mr. Bain. Three chief clerks, one at $2,250, one at $2,050 and one at $2,000. They are statutory increases.


George Eulas Foster: What is the policy of the hon. minister in his department as to statutory increases ?


William Paterson: Statutory increases are given to all this year. They have all been very deserving, and all who are not at the maximum have been given their statutory increases.
Eight first-class clerks, two at $1,900, one at $1,700, one at $1,600, four at $1,550, $13,300.


William Paterson: Messrs. Saunders, Bliss, Watson, Bristol, Gleeson and Frost.
Fifteen second-class clerks, three at $1,500 one at' $1,450. three at $1,350, two at $1,300, three at $1,250, three at $1,200, $19,950.


George Eulas Foster: Here is a large increase in high class clerks.


William Paterson: These are the second-class clerks. This is to provide for statutory increases to Messrs. Ackers, Campbell, Grafton, Roper and Rorke, $50 each. Then there are statutory increases from the first of January to three clerks, Messrs. Russell, Courtney and Dunlevie, of $25 each. There is a statutory increase of $50 to Mr. Lafon-taine, and in addition there is $25 to cover a short estimate for this clerk in 1904-5. His salary was estimated in 1904-5 for an increase from the 1st of January, while the increase actually took place from the 1st of July. The salaries of the remaining two old clerks. Messrs. Goodspeed and Telford, were estimated in 1904-5 at $1,250 in error, as their salaries were only $1,200, so that the statutory increases for 1905-6 are provided by leaving the estimates for their salaries the same as they were in 1904-5. All the clerks in this class are to receive their statutory increases. Then I am making provision for four additional second-class clerks, three at $1,200 and one at $1,250, making an increase of $4,850.


Samuel Barker: Did Mr. McDougald report the necessity for that additional number of second-class clerks ?


William Paterson: Yes, Mr. McDougald prepared this himself.


Samuel Barker: I mean did Mr. McDougald make a formal report under the statute? Did he make a formal report that the department needed four additional second-class clerks ?


William Paterson: I do not know whether he put it in writing or not, but he made a full report. He prepared this himself.


Samuel Barker: The hon. gentleman knows what the statute says. There may be no steps taken without his report.


William Paterson: He prepares these recommendations in his own writing, and brings them in.


George Eulas Foster: That does not make any difference.


William Paterson: 


John Graham Haggart: There is more than that required. You require not only the report of the deputy head, but the approval of Council, before you can bring that estimate down.


William Paterson: It is prepared by the deputy head and approved by Council.


John Graham Haggart: Has that been done ?


William Paterson: Certainly ; these estimates have to pass Council.


John Graham Haggart: But the hon. minister knows better than that. First of all, before your estimates are prepared you have to get the consent of Council to the addition, and you must have the report of the deputy head saying that this addition is required. Has that been done ? And what is the report ?


Samuel Barker: Section 19 of the Act relating to the civil service is this :
A second-class clerkship shall only be created by Order in Council passed on the report of the deputy head, concurred in by the head of the department, setting forth the reasons for creating the office, and after the salary has been voted by parliament.


William Paterson: After the salary is voted by parliament that will be done.


Samuel Barker: Yes, but I understood the hon. minister to say that the offices had been created and the men appointed.


William Paterson: No. The deputy recommends this.


Samuel Barker: Do I understand that Mr. McDougald, the deputy, has not reported recommending this increase ?


William Paterson: Yes, he has recommended it for submission, and what the hon. gentleman is reading now as being required after the salaries are voted will be complied with. That ^provision of the law is to be complied with after the salaries are voted.


Samuel Barker: I asked the hon. gentleman a few moments ago whether Mr. McDougald had reported in favour of these increases, and I understood the hon. minister to say that he had. Now it turns out that he has not.


William Paterson: Certainly he has. He prepared the estimates.
Mr. FOSTER, Now, Mr. Chairman


William Paterson: We had all this debated last year.


George Eulas Foster: There may have been many things up last year which will be up again. The hon. minister himself was up last year many times, and I apprehend that before he is through on the 1st of May he will be up many times again. But the hon. minister is asking for a certain amount of money. He says that certain formulas

have been complied with, and that if you will give us the money we will proceed and put on the clerks. That is all very good, but the representatives hold the purse strings, and when he comes to have them unloosened to the extent of four second-class clerks, the hon. minister has to give some reasonable reason why four second-class clerks are necessary.


William Paterson: Certainly.


George Eulas Foster: Why are they necessary 1


William Paterson: That is right, there is no doubt ; but that is not the point that my hon. friend (Mr. Barker) was examining. I may say in a general way that owing to the provisions of what is known familiarly as the Dumping Clause Act, and the regulations that we have had to make, and the steps we have had to take, in order to ensure compliance with the law, additions to the staff have been necessitated. We feel sure that we cannot get along with less than this number if the work is to be done efficiently, as no doubt it is desired to be done. Therefore, we propose to transfer, if the committee sanctions this expenditure that we are asking for, from the outside staff of the Board of Customs four ifficers. The Board of Customs is connected with and is paid for out of the outside vote, the reason being because the work which is done here now in Ottawa in the central office is really outside work that used to be done at the ports in days gone by. But when it was thought desirable to get out a statement of exports and imports and of the general trade and commerce of the country once a month, and it could only be accomplished by bringing those who were engaged in the work of the outside ports to Ottawa and having all the information furnished here, it was decided to make that change. Therefore, there are men in the office who are well qualified for the inside service for the checking of invoices and so on, and that work will now be done more thoroughly than heretofore, and it has been thought desirable to bring some of the gentlemen who have had experience in dealing with these matters from the outside to the inside sex-vice.


George Eulas Foster: These four men you propose to transfer ?


William Paterson: Yes ; they have been engaged in this work for some time past. They have been engaged here doing the woi'k, but they have been paid out of the vote for outside woi'k. As this work may pi-operly be considered to be inside work, I think it would be more regular that we should ask that they be placed on the permanent list in the inside service, and that they should be paid from the inside vote, and therefore we come before parliament with this vote. The gentlemen we propose to transfer from the outside staff of the Boai'd of Customs and whose salaries
we propose shall be paid from the vote of the inside service are Messrs. Heintz, McCaffrey, Richards and Ross. Mr. Heintz entered the seiwice in Winnipeg in June, 1882. Mr. McCaffrey entei-ed the service at Montreal in September, 1884. Mi'. Richards entered the service at Fredericton in 187S, and Mr. Ross at Rossland in July, 1898. As I was explaining to the hon. gentleman, we established the statistical branch here. These gentlemen had been engaged in compiling the statistics at the various ports I have mentioned. When we transferred all of this work to the statistical office at Ottawa we brought here the officers who were doing the work at these different ports, as they were not required at the ports, and having had large experience, we have assigned them to important work in the cheek department.


George Eulas Foster: What salaries do they receive ?


William Paterson: Mr. Heintz, and Mr. McCaffrey receive $1,200, Mr. Richards $1,200, and Mr. Ross $1,250.


George Eulas Foster: Do they start here with the same salary as they had outside ?


William Paterson: I think they do. Coming into the inside service they will get the statutory increase, which does not apply to the outside service.


George Eulas Foster: What kind of work is imposed on them by the dumping clause ? Are they dumping up in Winnipeg ?


William Paterson: No. It has always been the law of Canada since confederation, that the duties should be levied upon the value of the articles in the country of export at the time of export. It is our duty' to see that that is done. An improvement, as I consider it, was made a few years ago. The old system was that a person buying goods from a foreign country and importing them had to have affixed to the invoice a certificate made by the party from whom he purchased the goods, certifying that the price given was cori'ect. The seller might sell the goods at from ten to twenty per cent below the current market price to the Canadian customer, and that being a bona fide transaction between himself and the buyer he could quite honestly attach the certificate because it was correct as to the transaction between the two individuals, and we of course never questioned the right of a man to sell his goods at any price he chose, but the law imposes on the department the duty of saying that the duty must be levied upon the value of the goods as sold in the counti'y of expoi't. Thex-efore that certificate was changed and it was required that the exporter should cei'tify that the prices mentioned were the prices at which the goods were sold in the country of export, and if there was any variation in that regard it was noted in the

margin. That helped us a good deal to secure the duties that were required under the law better than they had been secured before that time. But, when parliament adopted as additional taxation 50 per cent of the amount of cutting if you allow that expression, it became even more important than before that we should secure all information that would not harass trade, but would enable us to carry out the law as it was intended. We have therefore required under the new regulations more than one invoice. Hitherto two copies of the invoice came to this country. The merchant kept one himself and the law required that one should be furnished the customs and should be left at the port of entry. The entry was all that reached the department here. The entry would be scrutinized by the check department, and if they thought from anything in the descriptions that the local officer had not been able to ascertain the correct value for duty, the port had to be written to to forward the invoice, which then had to be examined here by-the check clerk, and if it was found that an error had been made the importer vyoulci be written to.


George Eulas Foster: An error in what way ?


William Paterson: For instance if the port officer had allowed articles to pass at a certain value which was an honest value as between buyer and seller but was not the value required by law on which the duty should be paid. When an error of this kind was discovered, a call would be made upon the importer who had made the entry in good faith to amend the entry and pay the difference. That entailed time and a good deal of irritation on the part of merchants because when an error occurred at a distant point, a good deal of time was lost in correspondence and by the time the demand was made for the additional duty, the merchant might have marked the goods and sold them, allowing for duty at the lower rate. We therefore thought that it was desirable to ask for two copies of the. invoice. This of course caused a little irritation at the time as all customs changes do, but I myself thought that this change was required long ago. One copy of the invoice is kept at the port of entry as before, but the other copy comes to the central office, so that day by day we have the entries to scrutinize, whereas previously we had to write to the port for each individual entry when required. If any failure to appreciate the requirements of the law on the part of the local collector is discovered we can notify him quickly, and in this way we have done away with a great deal of the irritation that was caused by asking a man to amend an entry perhaps two weejts after it was made. In order to do this we have required additional help and the staff has been increased in that way. I think that parliament will see that the trade and commerce of the country and the revenue warrant us in asking this additional help.


William Paterson: 


George Eulas Foster: But you will require people in the places of those whom you have transferred to Ottawa, Mr. Heintz for instance who was transferred from Winnipeg.


William Paterson: No. Before the statistical branch was established four or five years ago, Mr. Heintz was engaged in compiling these statistics at Winnipeg. Now they are compiled here, his work is done here, and we brought him from Winnipeg here to do the same work. Now, that we have taken him from the statistical branch and placed him in the check department, we have had to fill his place in the statistical department. We consider that the checking branch is more important inasmuch as revenue is involved in its work, and we desire to have experienced men in it; we can better place the new men in the statistical department.


George Eulas Foster: That is the point I wish to make, that you have filled their places. Suppose that goods are brought in say at Shelburne, in Nova Scotia. One invoice is displayed there, the local officer passes upon it and collects the duty. Then a duplicate of the invoice and the entry is sent to Ottawa. All this supposes two things, that the local man in Shelburne shall have a knowledge of the current sale prices, say in Austria or Birmingham, or wherever the goods are bought. The difficulty seems to be how he is to know whether the prices that are on the invoice are simply the dealing prices between the seller and the buyer or the current prices at which the goods are sold in the market where they are bought. Does the local man, in Shelburne, or Guysboro', or anywhere else in this country, have a sufficient knowledge to adjudicate in a matter of that kind ? If so, how does he get it ?
I suppose that here in Ottawa you are better armed and equipped ; the men here do know. Have they an ubiquitous intuition as to the current prices of the goods in the country from which they are imported ? There must be a great deal of haphazard in the matter, and delay and dissatisfaction. After all, does not the hon. gentleman find a great deal of difficulty of getting at these current prices, and what machinery has he for doing it ?


William Paterson: There is difficulty, of course, even in our larger offices, where our regular appraisers are very well posted. The way the matter is attended tio is this : One of our new regulations, winich I omitted to mention before, is the one that was complained of a little in Great Britain. English merchants, who are accustomed to free trade and who are not hampered with any customs regulations, did not seem to see the necessity of it. Under the new system, if there is any change in the price, we not only require the exporter to note it on the margin of the certificate, but we have double columns in which we require him to

enter the price at which the goods are sold in the country of export and the price at which they are sold to the Canadian importer. They said: What is the use of filling out the second column when the prices are the same ? Our reason for that is this : Hitherto they had to make a declaration that there was no change in the prices. That was apt sometimes1 to be performed in a perfunctory manner by a careless house, which would put its stamp on the declaration ; but greater care Is likely to be exercised when the price of each item has to be entered in two columns, and the exporter has to make a declaration that these entries are true and correct. If he puts down prices that are not correct, he is, of course, liable to all the penalties under the customs law, which are very severe. So that all the collectors now have invoices with these double columns, in which are entered opposite each item the price at which the goods are sold in the country of export, and the price at which they are sold to the Canadian consumer. Where there is a difference between the two, the collector adds the difference to the duty, but not exceeding fifty per cent of the duty on the article. i do not think It is a hardship. 1 think the English merchants who expressed some vexation with it, have realized that our regulations must be general in their nature, and that exceptions cannot be made in favour of one country over another. I think the department has succeeded in establishing pretty safe checks, which, when the system is understood and in practice for a time, will be found not to be harassing at all, either to exporter or importer. The collector relies necessarily on the invoice being bona fide in the first place. Our staff, I may say, has been increased, for we have thought it necessary to establish, in the country to the south of us, special agents, whose duty it is to ascertain and to put forward to the department here, the values of all leading articles. We have these agents at New York, Chicago, Boston, Seattle and Cleveland. These cities are their headquarters, but they cover the whole country among them. What is called the cutting of prices is more in vogue on the other side of the line than in England. The information iin regard to leading lines is coming to us daily, and is sent by circular to the different local officers. This, in a general way, -is, I think, the information the bon. gentleman wants. That we are deceived sometimes is possible; it is impossible that it can be otherwise; but we have taken all the precautions that we thought necessary. If any one passes a wrong entry, either designedly or in error, the matter does not end with the passing of the entry. There is no limit to the time that we can follow the importers for the duty itself; but' we can follow them for three years for the penalties, which in the extreme amount to the forfeiture of the
goods. Therefore, people will be careful, at any rate, houses with a reputation and standing, both importers and exporters, to make proper entries.


George Eulas Foster: All this makes me,very reflective. I could not help thinking, when I was following the hon. minister's, I must say, clear and thorough explanation, how many of Ms old lessons he must have had to put behind him.


William Paterson: I have learned something.


George Eulas Foster: He who has sat at the feet, not of Gamaliel, but of Sir Richard Cartwright, who in some matters is far ahead of Gamaliel, who has heard him talk of the virtues of free trade and how delightful and necessary it was that you should buy in the cheapest market and sell in the dearest-after all you have done, by onesided preferential trade and the like, to encourage colonial and imperial favouritism and goodwill to each other, you absolutely make it impossible that an Englishman should sell to a poor Canadian at a lower price than to a German. If he wants to give a Canadian a good bargain, you prevent him. You will not let him sell to a Canadian at a cent less than to one of his own fellow-Englisbmen or to a foreigner. What a large amount of conversion must have been going on in the mind of the hon. gentleman to cause him to adopt any such policy.


William Paterson: There has been no conversion because under our policy, if you can suppose an English merchant selling to a Canadian at. less than he does to others, we simply charge an extra tariff and give a portion of the benefit to the treasury. But if the hon. gentleman had his way, he would double the duty against the Englishman and make it impossible for him to sell to ns at all. WTe only collect an extra duty when the English merchants are able to sell at a lower rate. The duty of 30 per cent might become a duty of 35 per cent, but the hon. gentleman would make it fifty per cent. With us when the prices are so cheap, instead of the consumer getting the whole benefit, the treasury gets a portion and we are able to reduce taxation in another direction.


George Eulas Foster: You will be a pretty good protectionist shortly.
Department of Customs-junior second-class clerks, one at $1,100, one at $1,050, three at $1,000, one at $950, five at $900, six at $850, two at $800, $17,300.


Samuel Barker: I wish to call the attention of the minister again to the statute with reference to this item. The minister knows it is not a new question. We have had it up during several sessions, and I have not yet been able to convince the hon. gentleman or any of his colleagues that

they ought to comply with the statute regarding these increases. I presume that the Civil Service Act was passed with some definite object. The clear intent of the statute was to put the responsibility for these increases upon, not tlie minister, but the permanent heads of the departments, as being the ones who know to what extent sucli increases are necessary. The permanent head of the department is required to make a report, that report has to be approved by the minister himself, then parliament votes the money ; and after all that is done, an Order in Council is passed creating the new clerkship. If you take section 15 of the Act, you cannot have any doubt as to the intention of parliament. Section 15 relates to the chief clerkships, and all the other sections follow in the same words, though not divided in the same way. That section provides that a new clerkship in any department shall only be created by Order in Council, to be passed after certain procedure has been followed. Three things must first be done. The deputy head must first report that such an officer is necessary for the proper performance of the public business in the department interested and must state the reasons on which he has arrived at 11'at conclusion. That surely does not mean that the deputy or permanent head of the departmeut must simply look at the item and not express any dissent. He Is expected to make a formal report to the minister giving the reasons for the increase. That being done, the minister must approve of his report or it can go no further. Having given his approval, the money must be voted by parliament, but what does the minister do ? He reverses all that. He first comes to parliament and asks for a vote. But how ridiculous would it not be for parliament to vote the money and then have the permanent head refuse to take the responsibility of recommending .that the extra clerks are essential to the working of the department. The procedure required by the Act is however reversed, and we are told that because the deputy minister has seen the item and has not objected to it, that is a sufficient compliance with the Act. Surely the minister will not pretend that that is a compliance with the statute. I would like the Minister of Justice to say whether he thinks it is? Here we have a $12,000 increase in these two items in the Customs Department, and we are entitled to ask the Minister of Justice whether the Minister of Customs has complied with the law ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: This question was up for consideration several times during the previous session, being raised by my hon. friend from Hamilton (Mr. Barker). At the time, it appeared to me that the statute was perfectly clear? As I understand it, in the first place, the minister comes to parliament for a money vote to enable him to create a clerkship, of whatever class it may Mr. BARKER.
be. If parliament approves the suggestion of the minister and supplies the money, it is upon the condition that the deputy head-the permanent head, as my hon. friend calls him-shall make his report, and that report, confirmed by Council will be the justification for the minister to apply the money voted by parliament. This, it seems to me, is the clear meaning of the section. But. at the time the point was raised, in view of the argument put forward by my hon. friend, I thought it well to consult the deputy Minister of Justice, who has been in charge of the department for many years- ever since 1890 or 1891, I think. And he told me that this was the practise that had been invariably followed.


Samuel Barker: But it does not follow that it is right.


Charles Fitzpatrick: And the deputy minister, excellent lawyer that he is, says that the section does not admit of any doubt, in his opinion.


George Eulas Foster: What is the meaning of the seven new clerks ?


William Paterson: That is the transfer of seven clerks from the outside staff of the Customs to the inside staff, at the following salaries: 1 at $1,050; 2 at $1,000; 2 at $900 and 2 at $850.


George Eulas Foster: And you have diminished the number of third-class clerks by four. Where have they disappeared to?


William Paterson: One, Mme. Jolivet, has been transferred to Quebec; two have been promoted to junior seconds, and one clerkship for which a vote was taken last year was not filled.


George Eulas Foster: Who was promoted?


William Paterson: Let me give the increases as summarized for me by the accountant;-Statutory increases, $425; additional clerks by transfer, $6,550, total $6,975. In addition we are providing for the promotion of Miss Sixsmith and Miss Mason from third clerkships to junior second class, at the minimum salary of $800 each, vice provision in old estimates for salary of R. Telford, $950, who was promoted, and R, H. Moir, at $825, transferred to the outside service.
Four third-class clerks, one at $675, one* at $635, one at $576, and one at $550, $2,435.


George Eulas Foster: Are there any increases here ?


William Paterson: Four statutory increases: Miss Low, Miss Burt, Miss Cram end Mr. F. Lessard.
Allowance for private secretaries and assistants, $600.
Mr, FOSTER. More than one. What kind of arrangement is this?


William Paterson: Miss Dawes and Miss Cram are assistants to the private secretary.


George Eulas Foster: Has the minister no private secretary? And, if so, where is his salary ?


William Paterson: He is assistant commissioner, and does any private secretary duties that I require, but takes no part of the allowance.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. gentleman divides the allowance of $600.


William Paterson: Not the whole of it. Miss Dawes gets $150 and Miss Cram $100. The balance is not used.


George Eulas Foster: , Then the hon. minister had better strike out the balance. That $150 laying around may be a great temptation-


William Paterson: This covers a period ending eighteen months from now, and I may need it by that time.
Department of Inland Revenue-seven first class clerks-one assistant accountant at $1,900, one assistant secretary at $1,900, one at $1,850, one at $1,750. one at $1,700, and two at $1,600, $13,500.


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Inland Revenue).: There is an increase here of $250, which is to pay statutory increases to five first-class clerks.


George Eulas Foster: What is the policy adopted as to statutory increases ?
Mr. BRODEUR, They are given to all those who have reached the maximum of their class.
iMr. FOSTER. You have one less senior second-class clerk, how is that ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I increased the number of junior second-class clerks. There was no one there last year.


George Eulas Foster: You had a vote that you did not utilize ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Is $800 the minimum of a junior second-class ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: These are statutory increases-four at $900 and three at $800.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Two have reached the maximum of their class, Mr. Chateauvert and Mr. Gervais.


George Eulas Foster: The difference is $350, you are making an increase in the item to that extent. You have only four clerks to get the statutory increase, which would only make $200.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Gervais is a new appointment in the third class. He was in the temporary service, and instead of coming in at the lowest salary of the class, we give him $700 in virtue of the law passed two years ago that those who were in the civil service as temporary clerks were entitled to come in as third-class clerks at the salary they were receiving as temporary clerks.


George Eulas Foster: Up to the limit ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Up to the limit, $700.


George Eulas Foster: In printing and stationery, what regulation is there as to the price you have to pay ?	-


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The stationery department fix the price themselves.


George Eulas Foster: Do they attempt to make any profit for the department, or do they make their prices at cost ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I never inquired whether the Printing and Stationery Department are making money out of it, perhaps they do.
Office of the Auditor General-salaries, $51,787.50 ; contingencies, $10,200.


William Paterson: The hon. gentleman asked a question with regard to this department-the Auditor General has now come in.


George Eulas Foster: Who is proposed to be made the new chief clerk ?


William Paterson: The Auditor General says he can't say anything about it until he gets the money.


Samuel Barker: That is not at all inconsistent with the statute. Mr. McDougall has probably made a formal report recommending this. That is what the other gentleman should have done.


William Paterson: Three juniors are made second-class clerks.


George Eulas Foster: What is the reason for making tlibni second-class clerks ? Do they become spryer ? Have they been at the maximum of their class ?


William Paterson: They passed the examination, and the auditor thought they were entitled to the promotion.


George Eulas Foster: Another point we wanted to know was, why are eleven first-class clerks necessary, all new ? Then as to the disparity between the amount dropped off from clerical and other assistance and the sum put in here for first-class clerks, if they are simply transfers.


William Paterson: While the Auditor General is asking for the eleven to be placed on the permanent list they are now in the employ of the department and have been paid out of the vote for clerical assistance and contingencies. He now makes them permanent. The question asked is : why the amount for clerical and other assistance is not reduced by the amount involved by the transfer of the eleven to the permanent list. While the Auditor General quite recognizes

that he has not been able to reduce his estimate for clerical assistance, because he anticipates that he will require more help in that direction, and in fact, he would like the committee to understand that even with what he is asking for now it may be possible that he will have to ask parliament to sanction a larger amount for the payment of other officers, but he will feel himself in a better position to know how he stands in that respect when the supplementary estimates are brought down, because the interval will give him probably six weeks time during which he will more fully appreciate the duties which will be entailed upon him by the new Bill.


George Eulas Foster: How long have these transferees been in the employ of the department ?


William Paterson: From two to four years.


George Eulas Foster: Are they going in as first-class clerks at the same salaries as they are getting '?


William Paterson: Yes, barring the statutory increase.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has the government surrendered to the demand which the Auditor General has been making for some time?


William Paterson: No.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Mutual concessions.


William Paterson: The government certainly want to give him all the help he requires.


Charles Fitzpatrick: All the help he wants.


George Eulas Foster: I have no objection at ail to the Auditor General's office being thoroughly equipped. The Auditor General has a very important work to do, and I imagine that lion, gentlemen opposite are troublesome enough to make his office more burdensome than it used to be, but any amount of help we can give him here that will enable him to search out the expenditures of hon. gentlemen opposite we are willing to give.
Department of Agriculture, deputy head, $3,800.


George Eulas Foster: Here is an increase.
Mr. FISHER, crease.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. FISHER.
That is the statutory in-
Who is the deputy head ? Mr. O'Halloran.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that the maximum?


Mr. FISHER.: No.
Six chief clerks, two at $2,500, one at $2,412.50, one at $2,300, one at $1,962.50, $13,625.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There has been a misprint in omission of one clerk at $1,950, the insertion of which will make the total right. If my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) will look at Mr. PATERSON.
the Item he will see that the printed line only shores the salaries of five, whereas there are six and that the printer has left out one at $1,950. The amount however is included in the total of $13,625.
Eight first-class clerks : four at $1,900, one at $1,750, one at $1,650, one at $1,600, one at $1,525, $14,125.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There is one added.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There was a necessity for a technical officer in the copyright department. There was no clerk except the chief clerk who could undertake the work. The chief clerk has been in ill-healtb, he has been absent a good deal, and I felt it necessary to appoint a technical officer.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that a new appointment ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Who has been appointed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Ritchie.


George Eulas Foster: Where from ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Toronto.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: He was not in the service before ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He was not in the service, but be had been doing work in my department in another capacity and was recommended by tbe deputy minister for this position.	*


George Eulas Foster: What is his work ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He is in tbe copyright branch under tbe chief clerk.


George Eulas Foster: Is he a lawyer ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He is a lawyer by profession.
Fifteen second-class clerks :	one at $1,500,
two at $1,450, two at $1,400, four at $1,350, three at $1,300, one at $1,287.50, two at $1,275, $20, 337.50.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These are all the same excepting statutory increases.


George Eulas Foster: Does the bon. minister give statutory increases to all deserving clerks ?
Mr. FISHER, To all those who have no report against them.
Twenty-five second-class clerks : eleven at $1,100, one at $1,050, two at $950, seven at $900, two at $887.50, two at $850, $24,825.


George Eulas Foster: Statutory ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Statutory increases only.
Three third-class clerks :	one at $667.50, one
at $600, one at $550, $1,817.50.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Same reason ?
Mr. FISHER, Yes.
Department of Agriculture, contingencies- clerical and other assistance, $11^000.


George Eulas Foster: How much of it was spent last year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 

Printing and stationery, $4,500.


George Eulas Foster: Was that pretty well spent too ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think about; I have not the exact figures.
Sundries, $3,250.


George Eulas Foster: Was any part of that ' sundries ' spent in trying to find out the lost members of the Free Christian Baptist Church in New Brunswick ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.
M". FOSTER. It should have been.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is another vote for that.


George Eulas Foster: There never was a greater outrage perpetrated than that, and we will hear more about it before we get through.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: With pleasure.


George Eulas Foster: Trying to suppress a denomination.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Oh, no, giving it all due credit.
Department of Railways and Canals-secretary of department and chief clerk, office of deputy minister and chief engineer, $2,500.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the secretary now ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Mr. Jones.
l'irst-class clerks, salaries, $17,250.


Henry Robert Emmerson: You will notice a typographical error there. It reads three at $1,000; that should be $1,900. There is a decrease of $50 owing to the superannuation of Mr. Filteau. He was receiving $1,900, but whoever takes his place will commence with $1,500, making a saving of $400. The difference is explained by the statutory increases.


George Eulas Foster: How old was Mr. Filteau ?	.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I do not know his age exactly, but he had been in the department a great many years. He became incapacitated because of his eyes and his throat.
Second-class clerks, salaries. $8,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: These are all statutory increases. There will be a saving of $100 with respect to one of these clerkships. One clerk unfortunately was drowne l during the past season and his successor will begin at $1,200. He was in receipt of $1,300.
Junior second-class clerks, salaries, $8,075.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Four of these received the statutory increase of $50, and three received six months' increases of $25. There is a recommendation for an additional clerk at a salary of $800.


George Eulas Foster: What is the necessity for that ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The deputy minister reports that in consequence of the additional work in the department it will be necessary to appoint another junior second class clerk.


George Eulas Foster: I suppose the new clerk will be employed to look after the increased deficit ? This will require a smart man.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The report of the deputy minister will explain that; we will speak of the deficit a little later.
Contingencies, $5,000.


George Eulas Foster: How much of this was spent last year ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Up to January 1, $3,000 had been expended.
Public Works-Chief engineer, salary, $3,400.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has Mr. Lnfleur been appointed chief engineer of the department ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes, Mr. Lafleur has been appointed chief engineer. He was acting engineer of the department for, I think, six or seven years, and upon the report of the deputy, Mr. Lafleur has been appointed chief engineer by Order in Council in the usual way. It is only fair to explain to the House, that Mr. Lafleur has been appointed at a salary of $3,500, but as these estimates have been.printed there is only $3,400, so I shall have to ask for $100 extra in the supplementary estimates for Mr. Lafleur.
Second-class clerks, salaries, $17,800.


Charles Smith Hyman: There is an increase of one second-class clerk by promotion from the junior second to the second-class of Mr. H. J. Guppy, in accordance with the report of the deputy minister. Mr. Guppy has been 22 years in the service. An amount was taken for this purpose last year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is he at the minimum of his class ?


Charles Smith Hyman: He was appointed at the minimum.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And was he at the maximum of his class before ?


Charles Smith Hyman: He was after 22 years service.
Three junior second-class clerks, $2,600.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Was he taken from that class ?


Charles Smith Hyman: He was taken from that class. That explains why there is one less.
Department of Public Works-contingencies, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: How much did you spend
last year ?


Mr. HYMAN  .@: 

Post Office Department-$362,189.


George Eulas Foster: What is the minister's policy now with regard to statutory increases ?


William Mulock: I give effect to every recommendation from the deputy within the law. All the increases here are statutory.
Five messengers, $3,524.25.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the maximum salary for a messenger ?


William Mulock: 


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I see one here at $724.25.


William Mulock: I do not understand that. If my hon. friend will let the item pass, I will get the information on another day.
Provisional allowance, $1,850.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the object of that ?


William Mulock: Some years ago we established some dead letter branches outside of the city of Ottawa, in Winnipeg and the west ; and the clerks in these offices are paid provisional allowances on account of the extra cost of living, in accordance with the policy laid down by our predecessors, which we have carried out.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: This is a lump sum to cover the different places, I suppose ?


William Mulock: This is the total sum paid on a certain fixed scale, established by an Order in Council.
Post Office Department-contingencies, $41,710.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I see here some words respecting letter carriers' boots. Do I understand that the government supply boots to all the letter carriers all over the country?


William Mulock: Yes. We do not make them here. They are made in different cities ; but before they are issued, they are all inspected by one man here. We furnish the letter carriers with uniforms, including boots.


George Eulas Foster: Is it done by contract ?


William Mulock: Tenders are obtained in different cities. Circulars are sent out inviting tenders from a number of manufacturers in each place.


George Eulas Foster: Always of the right persuasion ?


William Mulock: I would not inquire into a minor matter of that kind.


George Eulas Foster: The supposition is that a Conservative cannot make good boots, I suppose ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who is the contractor in Montreal ?	,


William Mulock: I cannot give that information now. I will give it on the outside estimates for my department.


George Eulas Foster: Are all the boots inspected by one man ?


William Mulock: Every pair. Not a single boot escapes his eye.
Balancing and summarizing depositors' accounts at the close of the year ending June 30, 1905, $3,710.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is there any special clerk for that ?


William Mulock: That is done by the clerks in the department after hours, and an extra allowance is made for work done after hours.


George Eulas Foster: You pick out the proper clerks ?


William Mulock: The head of the branch picks them out.
Department of Trade and Commerce, $28,950.


George Eulas Foster: Who is now responsible for this department ?	*


William Paterson: Sir Richard Cartwright is the head.


George Eulas Foster: Is he to administer it from the Senate ?


William Paterson: Yes.
Chief clerk and accountant, $1,900.


George Eulas Foster: This is a new appointment?


William Paterson: No. Mr. Code was for years assistant accountant in the Customs Department and has been replaced in that department by another. There is a great deal of extra work thrown on the Trade and Commerce Department owing to the payment of bounties on iron and coal oil.
Second-class clerks, $1,200.


George Eulas Foster: What became of the other second-class clerk ?


William Paterson: He was promoted to be first-class clerk.
Contingencies, clerical and other assistance, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $2,000.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase here of $500.


William Paterson: That is due to the fact that they are getting out weekly reports, containing the reports of the commercial agents, which are distributed throughout Canada. Heretofore they were published in the monthly report.
Some resolutions reported.
Motion agreed to without discussion.
I

Copy of the original list of the electors of Marquette supplied the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery; also a copy of the list as sent to the returning officer; and for copies of the lists supplied by the returning officer to the-various deputy returning officers-Mr. W. J. Koche.


ADJOURNMENT-AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT.
[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.
George Eulas Foster: Before the motion is put,
I desire to call attention to the fact, that we have not received the public accounts, nor have we the Auditor General's Report. Probably the First Minister will be able to tell us when the Auditor General's Report will be down. We have gone on with the Civil Service Estimates, but we cannot go much further without the public accounts-


William Paterson: The Public Accounts have been distributed.


George Eulas Foster: I think not. A copy was laid on the table, but members of the House have mot received copies. And, with reference to the Auditor General's Report, the First Minister will see that we cannot go much further with the estimates until we have received that report.


Wilfrid Laurier: I can hold out little hope of an early distribution of the Auditor General's Report. The last account I had of it was two or three days ago. There were then in the hands of the Auditor General proofs for about ICO pages ; but there are about 300 pages of manuscript yet to come.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: We are paying for eleven more clerks which ought to facilitate the work.


Wilfrid Laurier: We are not paying those clerks yet but shall begin to pay them nest July. That may expedite matters, but in the meantime, the position is that a good deal of the manuscript is not yet in the hands of the printer.


George Eulas Foster: That is the fault of the departments. If they have not got the work forward, he cannot do it. The Auditor General does not prepare the manuscript


Wilfrid Laurier: Certainly, he prepares the manuscript of his own report. The fault is not with the departments so far as I know. I will see the Auditor General, and perhaps I can give the House more information to-morrow. But I cannot hold out any hope of an early presentation of the Report of the Auditor General.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at 6 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Fbiday, January 20, 1905.