1905-05-31

[Stage Direction]
Mr. JACQUES BUREAU (Three Rivers) moved for leave to present a petition praying for the passing of a Bill to amend the St. Maurice Valley Railway Company. He said : The object of the amendment is to allow the railroad to cross the St. Maurice river at a point three miles east of the point mentioned in the charter. The company are *-[DOT]ery anxious to go on with that road, and find that to do it they must cross the river three miles below the point mentioned. That Is the object of the amendment desired to be made to the Bill. Unless this is done we cannot go on with our railway this year.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Report of Canadian Archives for 1904.- Mr. Fisher.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. PAQUET-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
1.	Do any grave reasons of state exist that might prevent the Minister of Finance from having the Dominion one and two dollar notes or all other bank notes, printed simultaneously in English and French ?
2.	Are they unaware in the Finance Department that the two languages are official in Canada ?
3.	Is it the intention of the Minister of Finance to rectify in the future this state of things by ordering that those bank notes be printed in the both languages, English and French ?
Hon. IV. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance).: There is nothing in the British North America Act or in any Act of the parliament of Canada which requires or contemplates the printing of Dominion notes in two languages. The Finance Department has not contemplated the advisability of any departure from the practice which has existed under all governments from the beginning of confederation down to the present time.

<5827


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-TIME TABLES.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. PAQUBT-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Why are not the time tables o£ the government railways printed in English and in French, since both languages are official in Canada ? _
2.	Is it the intention of the Minister of Railways and Canals to rectify the present state of things by having such time tables printed in the two languages ?
Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 1	and 2. 'It lias not been the practice in Canada to print the time tables in French, only as advertised in papers printed in the French language. Time tables published for use of the employees have always been in English, but the employees are all conversant with that language.
The non-publication in French has not been found to cause any inconvenience.
If it be found that there is any necessity for such publication, the department will arrange accordingly.


SALE OF KINGSTON CORDAGE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. CLARE-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Has the cordage manufactured by the government at Kingston, between June, 1904, and March, 1905, amounting to 58 tons, been sold ?
2.	What tenders were received for the purchase of the same ?
3.	What tender was accepted, what was the price, and was it the lowest tender ?
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (for Minister of Justice) :: 1. A tender has been accepted, but tbe goods have not yet been delivered."
2	and 3. Tbe highest tender was accepted. It is not in the public interest, however, that the names of those who tendered or the prices offered should be made public until the transaction is completed and tbe purchaser has bad reasonable time to dispose of tbe goods If be desires to do so.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-TIME TABLE.
[Stage Direction]
On tbe Orders of the Day being called,
Mr. J. W. DANIEL (St. John City).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the attention of the Minister of Railways to the new time table which is to be put into effect on the Intercolonial Railway, I think, on the 4th or 5th of this month. At the present time the express from St. John leaves that city in the morning at 7 o'clock. Under the new time table that time has been advanced one hour, so that the train leaves at 6 o'clock in the morning. I am advised that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with regard to this change, and that it will be a very considerable trouble to tbe travelling public, and there is dissatisfaction among that class of people on that account. I would like to ask from the Minister of Railways i'f it is not possible for him to continue the running Mr. FIELDING.
of that train leaving St. John at 7 o'clock as at present. I believe the change will be a very unsatisfactory one. I understand it relates to tbe Halifax express alone, find I cannot see what advantage there would be in the change. I hope the Minister of Railways will reconsider that change and, in the interest of the travelling public, allow the train to leave at 7 o'clock in the morning and not change it to 6 o'clock.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is absolutely impossible to arrange a time table that will suit the convenience of every section of the Intercolonial Railway without entailing unwarranted expense. Last season there were a number of trains following each other on the Intercolonial Railway between Halifax and St. John. The train referred to by my bon. friend is known as No. 2 train. There has been at the same hour a train known as No. 1 leaving Halifax for St. John. In the consideration of the time tables during tbe present season tbe great aim that I bad was to suit as far as possible tbe convenience of tbe people and to minimize the cost of running trains. Nos. 1 and 2 cross each other at Amherst. I found that it was possible to discontinue No. 2 train as a through train from St. John to Halifax and also to discontinue No. 1 train as a through train from Halifax to St. John.
At the same time, we would meet the convenience of the people and the requirements of the traffic by having No. 2 train run from St. John to Moncton, connecting with the maritime express from Montreal in the morning; and the maritime express could do the whole business between Moncton and Truro. Last year the maritime express reached Moncton in the vicinity of 10 o'clock and went through to Truro. Then, 15 minutes after, No. 2 train from St. John followed, without passengers, without traffic, but not, of course, without very great expense. By tlie arrangement we have made, this difficulty is overcome. It is true that it necessitates the St. John passengers getting up at an earlier hour, but it meets the convenience of the travelling public along the line, because it is a local train ; it is not designed to do through passenger traffic between St. John and Halifax. As a matter of fact No. 2 train has not done that traffic for years. Originally it was a train started out with that object, and for a number of years, when the Intercolonial was a mere by-way it served that purpose. But, now that we have trains going every few hours, the Canadian Pacific Railway and other trains, this through train from St. John is no longer a necessity; it is only a bill of expense. Having regard to the necessities of the traffic, I felt that No. 2 train should leave St. John at an earlier hour and run to Moncton coming back in the evening at six o'clock and meet-

ing the requirements of the people between these points both going and coming, and that train No. 1 should leave Halifax and run to Amherst, returning in the afternoon and meeting the requirements of the people between these points. This will obviate the necessity of running a through express between St. John and Halifax. As a matter of fact, that train has been going out at seven o'clock in the morning without passengers, without traffic. And, in the interests of the railway, and, I think, quite agreeably to the convenience of the people, there should be a change ; and I have ordered accordingly. There is no great amount of traffic from St. John to local points by this through train. They have the local trains to depend upon. The suburban train service at St. John is unexceptional-they have trains at almost all hours. As to through traffic, they have a night train leaving St. John about eleven o'clock. This takes the through traffic. The Canadian Pacific Railway train, during the summer season reaches St. John about 11.30 a.m.-certainly not later than 12. The Boston train reaches St. John at 11 o'clock. The Intercolonial train connecting with that train and also with the train for Montreal leaves between 11 and 12.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It leaves at 11.40.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think I was sufficiently accurate in saying between 11 and 12. But, at 11.40, to be precise, that train leaves for Halifax. That takes practically the whole day business between St. John and Halifax. Recognizing that fact, I thought the country should be saved the expense of running No. 2 train which existed simply because it had been started at the time of the initiation of the Intercolonial service, and which has continued for years without any pressing necessity for it. Of course, I regret that, in order to connect with the maritime express from Montreal to Halifax we are obliged to start earlier from St. John. These are the facts, and I think the facts are sufficient justification for the action decided upon.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I was a little surprised to hear the minister-


Mr. SPEAKER.: I would call the attention of the hon. member (Mr. Daniel) to the fact that there is no motion before the chair.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: The House will be moved at once into Committee of Supply, and my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) will then have his opportunity.



SUPPLY-INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY TIME-TABLE.

["With reference to the dismissal of officials, the Toronto 1 Telegram ' a Conservative paper, some time ago urged the Whitney government not to dismiss Liberal officials from office, saying that the Laurier government in that respect had set a good example.\nAt six o'clock, House took recess.\nAfter Recess.\nHouse resumed at eight a'clock."]
Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
217 J


John Waterhouse Daniel: I was rather surprised to hear the Minister of Railways intimate that there were so many trains leaving St. John. He said there was one out every hour I think.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I said one every few hours.


John Waterhouse Daniel: As a matter of fact after this train leaves at six o'clock in the morning, there is no train until 11.40. This train is booked to leave the city of St. John so early that it will be a great inconvenience. The mail must close so very much earlier that even the morning papers will hardly be able to be sent out by it. I cannot see, from the statement of the minister, why the hour must necessarily be changed.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Let me tell my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) that that was with a view to meeting the maritime express which runs through from Montreal to Halifax and reaches Moncton somewhere about 10 a.m. When that maritime express reaches Moncton it can take the St. John traffic, or the traffic gathered up between St. John and Moncton on to Halifax if there be any. As a usual thing there is none. It only means a little inconvenience to the St. John people to get up a little earlier. But there are few people who get up to take the early morning train. They take the 11.40 train. Ordinarily-and I speak from personal experience-No. 2 train going out hitherto at 7 a.m., goes out absolutely without passengers and it is dependent for its earnings upon the traffic which it gathers between St. John and Moncton. I think the reasons which I have stated are good and sufficient. They are substantial. They are in the interest of economy and the arrangement, as I think, does not very greatly inconvenience the travelling public excepting a few who may wish to leave St. John in the morning for some intermediate point between St. John and Moncton. They have to get up an hour earlier. I am sorry for them, but it is impossible, as I stated at the very inception of my remarks, to contrive a timetable that will suit every point. Somebody has to be inconvenienced and I do not know of any people who should be more self-sacrificing that those of St. John.


John Waterhouse Daniel: At the same time I think that the hon. minister is making this change at the wrong time in the year because he must be aware of the fact that the amount of travel in that district is not as great in the winter time as it is in the summer time. People naturally in the summer time prefer to travel by day rather than by night.


Henry Robert Emmerson: They have a night train. They have a train at six o'clock in the morning, they have a train at 11.40 in

the forenoon, and they have a train in the afternoon.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I still hope the hon. minister will reconsider his position in the matter and allow the time-table to remain as it was before.


Mr. J. B. MORIN.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if'it will be possible for him to arrange the running of the trains on the Intercolonial Railway in such a way as to connect with the Canada Atlantic Railway or the Canadian Pacific Railway at Montreal so that people coming from the east to Ottawa may arrive at their destination on the same day. The way the train has been running for years we are compelled to stay in Montreal over night. There is no train for Ottawa connecting with the train from the east. If that could be arranged it would be very handy for us.


Mr. EMM EPSON.: I want to say in reply to my hon. friend from Dorchester (Mr. Morin) that I recognize the very great inconvenience that has resulted to passenger traffic from the east to Montreal and Ottawa. This has not been the fault of the Intercolonial Railway. I have repeatedly called the attention of the Grand Trunk Railway authorities to the matter since I have been in office, and the invariable reply has been that in consequence of there being two lines interested, that is the Canada Atlantic Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway, they could not make an arrangement such as we desired and for which we had asked, but I have the assurance not only of Mr. Wainwright, but also of Mr. Hays, that immediately on the acquisition of the Canada Atlantic Railway by the Grand Trunk Railway, which will occur, as I understand it, within a few weeks, if not within a few days, a train will leave Montreal at seven o'clock in the evening whereby passengers coming up by the Intercolonial Railway on the maritime express and reaching there at 5.30 will be enabled to reach Ottawa before ten o'clock at night, or at least not later than ten o'clock.


Mr. A. LAVERGNE (Montmagny).: Mr. Speaker, whilst I have the opportunity, may I call the attention of my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Em-merson) to the fact that there is a most serious inconvenience for people travelling from Ottawa on the Intercolonial Railway on Saturdays and Mondays? There is no maritime express.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is a maritime express on Monday.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Coming up ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Going down.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: There is none on Monday coming up. A man who leaves Ottawa at the end of the week has to miss Mr. EMMERSON.
the sitting on Friday night if he wants to be home on Sunday or on Saturday evening, and if he wants to be here for the sitting on Monday he has to leave his home on Sunday night. I wonder if the hon. gentleman could afford any remedy for this most serious inconvenience suffered by people travelling to and from that part of Quebec.


Mr. O. E. TALBOT.: In addition to what my hon. friend from Montmagny (Mr. La-vergne) has just said, I would beg to remind my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson) that last year I drew his attention to that fact. It is a great inconvenience to us in our district that we cannot have the ordinary express on Saturday to go down upon and on Monday to come up by. Every one suffers by this arrangement because we have either to leave one day sooner or come back one day later if we want to visit our homes. If a remedy could be provided it would be of very great service to us.


Mr.  A. A.@: STOCKTON (St. John city and county.) I recognize the fact that it -is somewhat difficult to arrange a time-table to suit all the people along the line of the Intercolonial Railway, but yet I am satisfied from the representations that have been made to my colleague and myself from the city of St. John that there will be general dissatisfaction and general inconvenience by the change proposed by the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson). Under the proposed change the first train going out will be, as the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals has said, at six o'clock in the morning and there will be no other train going out from St. John after that until 11.40 a.m.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is a freight train.


Mr. STOCKTON.: Oh, a freight train 1 People do not travel on freight trains.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Between local points they do. It has passenger accommodation.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: We have got over the day of corduroy roads and freight trains. People travel by Pullman passenger ears in these days. These are growing times. It *will be very inconvenient for the people of St. John and the travelling public generally and there will be another inconvenience. It is too early for the despatch of mails and of newspapers. They will close at five o'clock, an hour before the mail goes. The representations that have been made to my colleague and myself have pointed out very strongly that there will be very great inconvenience indeed. At all events I hope, having brought it to the notice of the hon. minister, that he will see if some change cannot be made. I recognize the fact that we ought to be economical in the running of the Intercolonial Railway, but

not too much so at the expense of the convenience of the travelling public generally and the people in our own community in whom I am more particularly interested.



Hr. A. C. MACDONELL.: Mr. Speaker, I desire to refer to a matter of considerable importance to the city of Toronto; that is, the proposed erection of the new post office. I notice the absence of the hon. Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock). I understand that his absence will be somewhat prolonged, but notwithstanding that fact I think the city of Toronto is entitled to some answer from the government regarding the present condition of the burnt area where it is proposed to erect this new post office. That disastrous fire occurred in Toronto considerably over a year ago and there are still acres of the burnt district remaining in the same condition in which they were on the day after the fire. Nothing has been done there. Owners and lessees are greatly prejudiced by the inaction of the government regarding the selection of the post office site and also by the delay of the Railway Commission in stating whether or not the balance of the area is to be expropriated for station purposes. The matter has been called to my attention recently by an article in the ' Globe ' of Monday last which states :
The Dominion government will expropriate all or a portion of the property on Front street between Bay and Yonge streets for the new post office when the surveyors have decided just how much of the land will be required. Mayor Ur-quhart obtained this information from the Postmaster General during his visit to Ottawa.
No information of that nature has been given to the House or the country as far as I am aware and I would like to know if that statement is authentic. The article proceeds :
Mr. Alexander Asher and a number of other lessees of the property complained to the mayor that the uncertainty as to what the government would do was seriously interfering with their plans.
I personally know that to be the case. Several industries have left the city of Toronto because of the inaction of the government and the uncertainty as to what is to be done regarding that burnt area. It comes under two headings: first, that portion of the area that would be required for post office purposes; and second, the balance of that area which is now under the consideration of the Railway Commission as to whether it shall be expropriated for station purposes. Information as to either or both of these matters would be gratefully received by the people of Toronto and particularly by those who are interested as owners or lessees of this land.
>
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance). So far as proceedings before the
Railway Commission are concerned we are not in a position to give any information ; that will have to pursue the ordinary course before the commission, and of course we cannot' say as to what the determination may be. With respect to the post office site I am aware that the Postmaster General and the Minister of Public Works have had some conferences on the subject, but I think no final decision has been come to. I would not like to say that the property in question is not to be taken, although officially I think the matter is not yet determined. That is under the consideration of the two ministers. It may he that the Minister of Public Works and the Postmaster General have had an understanding but in the absence of both ministers I would not like to give a more definite answer to my hon. frionds' question.


Angus Claude Macdonell: The people of Toronto certainly think that the government should take some immediate action. The fact as to whether or not they are going to expropriate for post office purposes and the extent of the expropriation for that purpose should be decided on by the government at once. This is intimately connected with the other question as to the balance of the land which is now before the Railway Commission, and it is reasonable to ask that the government should help -to advance the matter by deciding one way or another with reference to the post office site. We think that the government should do something and can do something to expedite the proceedings before the Railway Commission. The matter has been standing for many months and people are abandoning their property in that area and are actually removing their industries to other cities.


POST OFFICE REGULATIONS.
Mr. J. BARR (Dufferin).: I wish to call the attention of the House to a letter which has been sent to postmasters by the post office inspector at Toronto, and which I think to a certain extent infringes upon the franking privilege of members of the House. The ietter is as follows :
Post Office Inspector's Office,
Toronto, May, 18th, 1905.
Dear Sir,-The department is informed that under date 20th April last a package of government publications addressed to you was posted from the House of Commons, the contents of which were apparently intended for distribution by you at your office, contrary to instructions contained in departmental circular of the 15th April last.
Be so good as to let me know precisely what this package contained and what disposition was made of the contents by you.
(Sgd.) J. HENDERSON,
Post Office Inspector.
I may say that this package was sent out by me to a postmaster in the county of Dufferin and signed by my frank. In re-

ferenee to government publications such as the reports on agriculture and other reports which are of importance to the agricultural community but which are scarcely important enough to send in separate envelopes, it has been my practice and the practice of many other members of this House to have an understanding with the postmasters in the rural districts by which they would place these documents on the counters of their stores, so that the farmers coming to the post office could take copies if they desired. The postmasters were quite willing to do this, and it was a great convenience to the members of the House as well as to the agricultural community. The circular of the 15th of April referred to in the letter which I have read appears to have contained instructions that postmasters must not continue this practice. I made an effort to see this latter circular and I telephoned to the Deputy Postmaster General-the Postmaster General being absent-and he informed me that the cir-


C ROW'S NEST PASS RAILWAY-PASSENGER RATES.
Mr. J. HERRON.: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to inform the right hon. Prime Minister that I have had several communications from gentlemen who reside in the district through which the Crow's Nest Pass Railway runs, complaining of the high passenger rates charged on that railway which I understand amount to four cents per mile. These gentlemen consider this rate very high and they have requested me to bring it to the attention of the government and to inquire if it is not one of those matters which might be brought before the Railway Commission for investigaion.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a matter which ought to be referred to the Railway Commission. I do not think the government can have anything to do with it. I shall look into it and have it investigated by the Railway Department.
cular being a departmental matter it could not be seen. For this reason I am unaware of its actual contents. We know that the corridors of this House are piled up with reports that involve too much work for the members to send out In separate envelopes, and it would seem to me that the practice to which I have referred of distributing them through the medium of the rural postmasters, is a practice that ought to be encouraged rather than prevented. At all events I am unable to see what right the inspector had to ask the postmaster to find out what was in the mail parcel that I forwarded from this House. I presume he may have been looking for such infringements as hon. gentlemen are said to have been guilty of in the past in sending out advertisements, &c., but there should be other ways of finding that out without violating the secrecy of the mails. It seems to me that this letter should not have been sent out by the post office inspector. I draw the attention of the government to the matter with the expectation that some explanation will be given. I may say that we do not hold the postmasters responsible for the distribution of mail matter sent in this way ; we merely send each postmaster a private letter asking him to place this departmental literature on the counter of his store if he has no objection, and I cannot see what harm there can be in that.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: The government has undoubtedly the right to interfere if it sees fit.


THE AUTONOMY BILL.
Robert Laird Borden: I would like to mention what has already been discussed between the First Minister and myself and that is the date at which we shall take up the remaining clauses of the Autonomy Bill. I understand that, owing to the indisposition of the Minister of Justice we camnot take them up to-day nor before Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.


Wilfrid Laurier: Some time next week.


Robert Laird Borden: My right hon. friend is not able to fix the exact date ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Robert Laird Borden: When the subject was last discussed, I think the Minister of Justice informed us that the clauses would be taken up in the order suggested from this side. Is that the understanding of the right hon. gentleman, or will he give us aif idea as to the order ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have not considered that at all. If the Minister of Justice agreed upon any order, I have no objection.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry the Postmaster General is not in his seat to-day, but he is expected to-morrow or the day after when I shall make it my duty to call his attention to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Barr). I hope that at next sitting we will be able to give my hon. friend the information he asks ; I do not know whether he will be satisfied with it or not, but at all events he is entitled to It.


Robert Laird Borden: My understanding was that he would consult the wishes of hon. gentlemen on this side and follow the order we suggested.


Mr. PATERSON.: I think lie said lie would leave the schedules to the last.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, he desired to have the redistribution clauses left until the end ; but apart from that, lie was willing to leave the order to us.


John Barr: 


SUPREME COURT, NOVA SCOTIA-'VACANT JUDGESHIP.
Robert Laird Borden: Some time ago, when the right hon. gentleman and the Minister of Justice were both here, I said I would bring up again the question of the continued delay in filling the vacancy upon the bench of the Supreme .Court of Nova Scotia. The answer I then received was of a very indefinite and unsatisfactory character, and 1 am bringing the matter up again, not for the purpose of discussing it, but for the purpose of stating that I would like more definite and satisfactory answers when the Minister of Justice and I are next in the House together. I'reminded the right hon. gentleman in the first instance that there are now only six judges instead of seven, as required by law, upon the bench of the Supreme Court of the province, and that lias been the condition since the month of February, 1904-nearly eighteen months ago. I do not wish to discuss the subject in the absence of the Minister of Justice, but I would like the right hon. gentleman or his colleague to be prepared to discuss that question just as soon as the Minister of Justice, whose indisposition I very much regret, is able again to take his seat in this House.


Wilfrid Laurier: The question of my hon. friend is quite reasonable, and I shall make it my duty to accede to it. I am sorry that at this moment I cannot indicate at what time my hon. colleague will be able to resume his seat in the House. But if he finds himself unable to do so next week, the public business will not suffer, and we shall proceed in his absence. If by the middle of next week, he cannot be here, I shall ask my hon. friend to bring up this question.


Robert Laird Borden: I was not urging that the Minister of Justice should come here before he is quite able to attend to business, but merely desired to bring to the right hon. gentleman's notice that this is a subject which in my opinion demands discussion and which I trust the government will be prepared to discuss at an early date.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Port Hawkesbury wharf-additional amount, $700.
William Stevens Fielding: This is a balance due on the purchase of a wharf at Hawkesbury, N.S. The price was $2,950, legal expenses $250, total $3,200. We paid by cheque $2,500, leaving a balance of $700. The wharf was purchased from Mrs. raint.


Mr. BERGERON.: Is not $250 rather high for legal expenses ?


Mr. TAYLOR.: Who was the legal gentleman who got that plum ?


William Stevens Fielding: I could not give the name. It was for the legal expenses in connection with the transfer of the property, but there may be more in the item than is expressed here. All these items are passed upon by the Department of Justice and no doubt the charge is reasonable.


Robert Laird Borden: The legal expenses in the case of an ordinary transfer of a piece of property would not amount to $250 or anything like it. For $25 to $50 would be about a reasonable charge. If the Minister of Finance will consult his hon. colleague, the Solicitor General, that hon. gentleman will tell him what would be a fair charge.


Mr. LEMIEUX.: Ordinarily the amount might appear rather large; but it happens sometimes that there are many negotiations in connection with the sale and transfer of property. Lately we had a transaction in Montreal in which it appeared at first sight that the amount for the transfer was large, but we found that we had to take proceedings through our agent, which increased the expense.


Robert Laird Borden: In very special circumstances the cost might be easily run up to $1,000 ; but I am speaking of an ordinary transfer of property where you examine a title and prepare a conveyance. From $25 to $50 would be ample for that.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Why cannot the account be brought down ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is no objection to that.


William Stevens Fielding: I will undertake to see that the account will be brought down when the main estimates for Nova Scotia are under consideration.
Fort Lawrence landing pier-to complete payments. $2,800.


William Stevens Fielding: This is to complete payments to contractors for the construction of the pier. It is built in Cumberland basin at the head of the Bay of Fundy. The main object of the construction of the pier is to afford accommodation to the thriving town of Amherst.


Mr.   I@: What depth of water do you get ?


William Stevens Fielding: At low water about 17 feet. It is a place of high tides.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the amount of the whole thing ?


William Stevens Fielding: The contract, cost of superintendence, &c,, amounted to $16,541.25. This vote will finish the work.
L'Ardoise-extension of breakwater up to shore, $750.


William Stevens Fielding: This is a small balance remaining to close up the transaction. The contract, inspection, contingencies, &e., amounted to $26,350. This completes the work.
<6839


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: As a matter of fact, a]] of these are to complete works for which money was voted before ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, in most of these cases ; but 'there may be some works still going on which may require future appropriations.
Quebec-Riviere du LiSvre-reconstruction of dam at Little Rapids, $3,S00.


William Stevens Fielding: This is a balance necessary to complete a dam. Hon. gentlemen familiar with works of this character know that unless you finish the work you may lose all that has been done.
(Mr. BERGERON. What is the whole amount ?


William Stevens Fielding: $20,000 has already been expended, and this balance completes the work.


George Taylor: Was it done by contract V


William Stevens Fielding: No, I am informed that it was a class of work that could not well be done by contract. 1


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: What are the conditions under which the Dominion government build dams across rivers? I would like to know their general policy in that regard. In our section the party that wants a dam builds it.


William Stevens Fielding: This was a Dominion work for the improvement of navigation, constructed some years ago at a time when there was a prospect of considerable trade in that region. The work having been constructed as a Dominion work, when disaster came to it, it was necessary for the Dominion to restore it.


Uriah Wilson: What interest had the Dominion in it ?


William Stevens Fielding: The interests of navigation.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What navigation is there on that river ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is practically a small canal. There is a lock there. The work was built as far back as 18SG.


Uriah Wilson: The hon. minister has not given us the principle on which this kind of work is done on the different rivers. There ought to be some principle governing such works. When the government takes the responsibility of damming a river in one locality, I can see no reason why it should not do the same in an another, unless there be some particular reason for the first work.


William Stevens Fielding: I might have some difficulty in explaining our own principles, but would have much more difficulty in
ioc.^1Dig principles of my predecessor m 1886, by whom this work was constructed. But hon. gentlemen will admit that when the Dominion has spent much money


William Stevens Fielding: in constructing a public work and then it is damaged, the Dominion should repair it.


Uriah Wilson: I am not talking of this particular work, but generally.


William Stevens Fielding: We are not voting' works generally, but this particular one.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think that is at all satisfactory. When public works are carried on by the government, there ought to be some general principle on which they proceed, and the government ought to be able to explain it.


William Stevens Fielding: I think the improvement of a river in the interests pf navigation would be a wise expenditure ; and while I am not personally acquainted with the work in question, no doubt my predecessor in the late Conservative government believed it would assist trade and commerce in that neighbourhood.


Uriah Wilson: I am glad to see the confidence which the hon. gentleman has in his predecessor.


William Stevens Fielding: Even if my predecessor put up a work of debatable propriety, we would be expected, when that work is damaged, to repair it. We might have some doubt as to the wisdom of building the Langevin block, but if we found the roof leaking we would consider ourselves bound to repair it.


Mr. BLAIN.: Does this work serve any good purpose ?


William Stevens Fielding: It was originally constructed because of the probability of considerable traffic in connection with the phosphate trade. At present there is very considerable lumber traffic on that river, there are no railways in its vicinity, there is a considerable settlement in its neighbourhood, and this is the only means the people have of getting access to the market.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: No doubt many lumbermen use the river for bringing down logs, do they pay anything to the government ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are no rates charged for the passing of logs, but the use of the lock has been subject to rates.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The policy of the government in the old days was to help to dam rivers, but they made the lumbermen pay tolls sufficient to cover the interest on the expenditure and the cost of keeping the dams.


William Stevens Fielding: There are slides and dams from which we still get revenue, but this does not come under the same head.


Richard Blain: Has there been money expended every year for some years on that work.


William Stevens Fielding: There has been some expended on its maintenance.

Sorel, Quebec-Ice piers in River St. Lawrence on west side ot mouth of River Richelieu-revote of $750 lapsed, $3,000.


William Stevens Fielding: The vote of $3,000 in the first instance was insufficient and it was represented that unless further work was ordered, the repairs would he carried away by the pressure. This vote of $3,000 makes the whole amount $6,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has not part of it been carried off by the ice already ?


William Stevens Fielding: Not this season but there was danger of that happening.


Uriah Wilson: When was the original estimate made ?


William Stevens Fielding: It was made before this flood occurred. It was made in the latter part of la03 for the year 1904-5.


Uriah Wilson: It is rather strange that the engineer should not have recognized the possibility of such a thing happening and made his estimates one-half what it should have been.


William Stevens Fielding: If my hon. friend has ever undertaken to repair an old house, he must know how difficult it is to estimate the work to be done. As soon as you begin repairing it, you find that other repairs, not originally foreseen, have to be made.


Uriah Wilson: Is this an old job ?


William Stevens Fielding: I would not say an old job but an old work.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where is the line of demarcation between the Department of Public Works and the Department of Marine in some of these items ? The shops at Sorel are in the Marine Department and also a part of the channel, is there not danger of a conflict of jurisdiction ?


William Stevens Fielding: I think an understanding was come to on that point. The shops at Sorel are connected chiefly with the dredging of the ship channel, which is under the Department of Marine and Fisheries. These piers and breakwater have always been under the Department of Public Works.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: In Sorel they are also building a beautiful dredge called the 1 W.
S.	Fielding ' for the maritime provinces, which has nothing at all to do with the ship channel.


William Stevens Fielding: The shops were originally established for the ship channel ; but if they have facilities for work of that character, there is no reason why they should not employ men doing work for any part of the Dominion. The dredge is being built for the Department of Public Works, and will be transferred to it and operated in the same way as other dredges in the maritime provinces.	I


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The fact is that the government have been changing their minds too often. Those works were put up at Sorel by the ex-Minister of Public Works, Mr. Tarte. His object was to build dredges which would be used all over the Dominion. It is only since his departure and the advent of the present Minister of Marine, that there has been a change, and the government have since followed a different policy altogether. That is why this government are continuing the work of building dredges there for the maritime provinces. We would have avoided a good deal of the discussion we had the other day concerning dredges in Fort William and Port Arthur, if we had dredges of our own and had not to hire dredges. It was to avoid having to hire dredges that the exMinister of Public Works wanted to build them for the government. And his theory was that the government could, by using their own dredges, have the dredging done for three or four cents per yard instead of forty cents which they have to pay when they hire other dredges. There seems to be a scarcity of dredges in the country or if there are any dredges they are in the hands of the government and it is no use for any one else to tender. It was to avoid that, as I remember the explanation given by Mr. Tarte in this House, that he wanted to build dredges belonging to the government that could do the work for which we pay 40 cents or 50 cents for 3 cents or 4 cents. It was accepted at that time by the government as good policy, but now it has been abandoned and that is why we are informed that the shops at Sorel are to build dredges only for the ship channel.
River Maskinonge-dredging, $3,800.


John Barr: Does the government own this dredge ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, this is being done by a private dredge owned by Mr. St. Pierre. This dredge was employed at $7 per hour, the rate established some years ago.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Have they lots of work to do there yet ?


William Stevens Fielding: This I understand, closes up the contract for the arrangement, it was not a contract, with this gentleman and tenders are being taken for the work on the basis of so much a yard.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it navigable ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, I am so informed.


John Barr: Is it cheaper to give so much per yard or to pay $7 an hour ?


William Stevens Fielding: That is always a matter of debate in the House. The department is no longer following the system of hiring dredges by the hour, but are fixing a price per cubic yard.


John Barr: 
Mr. LABOR.: I am glad to hear the department are going to drop the system of hiring dredges by the hour, that is if they have a proper system of measuring the number of yards of earth taken out. I know that from an experience that took place in my own country where a dredge was hired during 1903-4. One stipulation was that the dredge was to take out at least 1,000 yards of earth for 12 hours so that the dredge when it took out 1,000 yards stopped its work for the day, although it is a notorious fact that it could take out
3.000	yards as easily as 1,000. It seems to me to be ridiculous to hire a dredge stipulating to take out 1,000 yards knowing that that same dredge.has a capacity of three times that amount per day.


William Stevens Fielding: The officers inform me it is the practice of the department in hiring by the hour to stipulate that the dredges shall take out a certain quantity a day, and if they take out that quantity they presume their day's work is ended.
Mr. LALOIi. I have affidavits in my possession, and I shall probably take up the matter again, showing that in the case of a dredge employed in the Grand river at Dunnvi.lle, the contract with the government stipulated that it should take out
1.000	yards a day, and I have affidavits that the captain informed the men on the dredge and the tug men to take it easy and not hurry, because all they had to do was to take out 1,000 yards, whereas it is a notorious fact that the dredge has taken out
1.000	yards before noon and done nothing more for the rest of the day. I think the payment should be regulated by the kind of dredging and where they can take out more than 1,000 yards, I cannot see why it should be stopped at a thousand.


William Stevens Fielding: In such a case I suppose we would have to pay a larger rate per hour, but if the contract stipulated that they should perform 1,000 yards of dredging a day and the dredge did that amount I suppose we could hardly expect the dredging contractor to do a lot more work for nothing. Whether or not $7 an hour is a fair price is another matter. The contract only called for 1,000 yards a day. There is nothing wrong then in the dredge only doing 1,000 yards a day.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I do not quite agree with the minister. As I stated there are different kinds of dredging. Where the excavating is easy and the dredge is being paid $12 an hour and they can take out 3,000 in place of 1,000 I do not see why they Mr. FIELDING.
should not be compelled to work for the 12 hours at their full capacity and take out as much as possible. I do not see why they should be allowed to drag the job along week after week, when they cou'.d by working at their full capacity do it in one-third the time.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: 
Francis Ramsey Lalor: Yes.	.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: And they stop when the 1,000 yards is done ? I would think that is very poor business management. I could readily understand that an arrangement might be made so that a dredge should take out at least so much per day, but to say that a dredge is to be hired at so much an hour for 12 hours and be paid for 12 hours even if it works only half that time, seems to me is not very good business management.


William Stevens Fielding: 
Alfred Augustus Stockton: The difficulty I see is that if you have a dredge by the hour and you have an inspector to see that the dredge is not loafing and you put in a stipulation that you are to pay them by the hour for 12 hours a day if they take out a certain quantity, although they may do it in 2 hours they are paid for the 12 hours.


William Stevens Fielding: Does not my hon. friend see that if there was no such regulation the dredge might put in the time loafing and take out much less ? The stipulation of 1,000 yards is in the public interest, that they should at all events give a fair day's work. The only possible room for criticism is that the dredge might have been able to do more work and should be allowed to get more pay.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: Does not the minister see that is the minimum amount of dredg-

ing to be done under the most disadvantageous circumstances and they must do that under any circumstances. That would be a reasonable business proposition it seems to me. But, to say that after they have taken out a eertan quantity, payment goes on whether they work or not, does not seem to me to be a good arrangement to make with the owners of the dredges.


William Stevens Fielding: The method of dealing with these matters is changed now, so that in discussing this we are discussing a matter of the past. But I cannot see that if the quantity stipulated has been taken out, the sum stipulated should not be paid. My own observation is that men working either for the government or for private employers are not disposed to do more than they are paid for.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: Then it seems to me that the better plan would be to pay so much per cubic yard.


William Stevens Fielding: That is what is being done.


Uriah Wilson: There is another point. Every one knows that the quantity of material a dredge can take out depends upon the character of that material. I understand that the limit fixed is simply the minimum quantity that they are to take out, whatever the character of the material. But to say that because they happen to have easy work they should stop when they have taken out the quantity fixed as a minimum is an entire misconstruction of the understanding.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: If I understand it correctly, the dredge is paid according to her capacity -the more work she can do the higher the pay. To say that a dredge could get $12 per hour is all right. But that should mean that in the hardest kind of dredging they could encounter they should be able to take out at least 1,000 yards. What I cannot understand is fixing the minimum at 1,000 yards where the material is such that the dredge could do three times that amount. The dredge is hired to work for twelve hours a day, and she should work to her capacity for twelve hours under proper inspection to earn a day's pay, regardless of how great a quantity she takes out.
IMr. FIELDING. As the system now adopted is to pay by the cubic yard, we are really discussing a past transaction. But if the quantity taken out is fixed at 1,000 yards, the price might be satisfactory ; but, on that basis, if the dredge were obliged to take out more, the price would not be satisfactory. This was practically a system of piece work, and the sum paid per hour was the result of a calculation of a certain number of cents per cubic yard, which was regarded as a fair price for the work. That being the case, if a dredge.took up more, her
owners would expect to be paid accordingly. It all comes to a question of what is a fair price for removing the material.


Uriah Wilson: The hon. minister does not intend to say that for all kinds of dredging the dredge will do the same amount of work ?


William Stevens Fielding: No.


Uriah Wilson: This minimum was fixed, as I understand it, on the basis of the hardest digging-the dredge must not do less, but if the material were favourable it might do more.	[DOT]


William Stevens Fielding: I am informed by the officers of the department that this minimum did not contemplate the hardest kind of digging, but ordinary digging. But this has been done away with. The system adopted is that of paying by the cubic yard, which is a better system.


Richard Blain: Does not the same price apply to all ? I see that the price paid in Ontario is $8 per hour.


William Stevens Fielding: The price varies according to the capacity of the dredge.


Richard Blain: There seems to be quite a uniformity of price all over Canada. Am I to understand that it runs from $7 to $12 an hour ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes ; that is correct.


George Taylor: That is on the basis of
1,000	yards ?


William Stevens Fielding: No ; the value of the dredge would depend upon her capacity.


Richard Blain: What is the limit where you pay $7 or $8 ?


William Stevens Fielding: The quality was not the same for all dredges. It was based upon a fair price per cubic yard.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: That is, the maximum would be 1,000 yards a day, no matter how long it took to move the earth. In the report of the Minister of Public Works dealing with the different dredges, I find that the minister gives the cost per cubic yard as 5i cents, 4 cents and as low as 3 cents per cubic yard. This dredge was given $84 per day when the contract could probably have been made for $40 or $50 based upon the amount of work.


William Stevens Fielding: No ; the very favourable rates the hon. gentleman quotes are those of the powerful dredges of the government. But ordinary dredges do not do the work at that price. It all shows the wisdom of getting more government dredges.	,


Francis Ramsey Lalor: That is the proper policy for this government-to build its own dredges. I understand that Hon. Mr. Tarte, when Minister of Public Works, stated that the work could be done with government

dredges for from 3 cents to 4 cents per cubic yard. I cannot understand, then, why Mr. Conmee, Mr. Boone, Mr. Bowman and others should get these enormous prices when the government, with their command of cajpitai, can build dredges that will do the work so much cheaper.


William Stevens Fielding: I agree that the construction of government dredges is the best policy, and the hon. gentleman will see that the government is making progress along that line. As to the maritime provinces, I shall be very glad to find some one there with dredges, no matter what his politics, to do the work waiting to be done. My hon. friends from Ontario are fortunate in having private dredges that can do the work. When we try to get dredges for work in the maritime provinces we are told that the dredges are busy and we cannot have them.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: If the minister will not regard politics, but will give contracts in the maritime provinces on the same basis as these contracts are given to Mr. Conmee and Mr. Bowman and some others, I do not doubt that we can quickly form a company to build a dredge and take a contract. But we will want assurance that we shall not be required to change our politics to get fair-play.


William Stevens Fielding: I will promise my bon. friend (Mr. Lalor) that if be will tender for a contract in the maritime provinces any where that comes within what I may call my sphere of influence, the lowest tenderer will get the contract no matter what his polities.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: But if there were any chance of some of us tendering, I suppose the hon. minister would insert the advertisement on Saturday and provide that tenders were to be in on Monday morning.


William Stevens Fielding: No ; we will give you a fair chance.
Public Works-chargeable to income-River Chateauguay - dredging, revote of lapsed amount, $1,850.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who is doing that work ?


William Stevens Fielding: The Canadian Construction Company. This is work in Chateauguay basin, in the mouth of the Chateauguay river. This is money that was designed to be spent on that work, but they were. not able to spend it in 1903-4. This is needed to complete the contract.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that dredge working by the hour or by the yard ?


William Stevens Fielding: This dredge was at that time working by the hour. There is no work going on now at all. The work is done. The work upon which she has been engaged is stopped and tenders are being called for further work of the same class.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: 


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I want to call the attention of the hon. Acting Minister of Public Works to this work. I do not object at all to this work ; in fact, if I remember well I asked for the work some years ago. But, the money that is being spent there to-day is being uselessly spent. The engineer, I am sure, will bear me out when I say that they are working in what is called quicksand. They have been working there for the last fifteen or sixteen years and the channel is filling up all the time. I have seen the dredge there myself very often and I have no doubt they will have to keep up the same work every year and with no good result. The pilot on one of the boats that passes there told me that in order to establish a permanent work which would stand for a long time, it would be necessary to construct crib-work to protect the channel and keep the sand from filling in. That has been done at Ste. Anne's for the same purpose, the material there being quicksand. It may cost a little more at the outset but the work *would be of a permanent character. The department are spending $5,000 or $6,000 a year in dredging the river Chateauguay and no good result is being accomplished. The work will have to be done year after year because the channel will fill up, on account of the nature of the material. I call the attention of the hon. Minister of Finance, who is the custodian of our money, to the condition of this work and I also call the attention of the department to it. I am sure the engineer must know that part of the river. He was there himself years ago and he knows that what I am speaking of should be done if he wants to put a stop to the expense, which is not objectionable in itself, but which is not producing the desired result on account of the unwise policy which has been pursued in the past.


William Stevens Fielding: I think my hon. friend has been misinformed and that he is confusing some other class of work with this, because I find by the memorandum which has been supplied to me that this dredging is described as being for the purpose of removing hard-pan, boulders and clay.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There are two places where they have been working. One of these is in the River Chateauguay where they have taken awray stones. The other place that I am talking of is at -the mouth of the River Chateauguay or just above the river where a channel is being made for boats coming from the lake into the river.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend -will probably find on inquiry that he is mistaken, and that there is no work being done at the place he indicates. This work is for the removal of hard-pan, boulders and clay. There is sand iu the river but these operations are not in the sand district at all.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Last year there was a dredge at the mouth of the river working

In the sand and there was another one down the river. They have been working at three or four places in the river.


William Stevens Fielding: I am informed that the sand is not at the mouth of the river.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Well it is. I am very sorry that the engineer does not remember. There is a sand bank at the head of the River Chateauguay. Steamers passing there have to go around nearly a mile to avoid that bank. The government years ago commenced work in the channel. They have been working at that since. They were working at that last summer. I have seen the dredge at work there. It is that gap that is filling uip all the time.


William Stevens Fielding: There is no question that the dredge has been working during the past season at the mouth of the river, not at the head of the river. 1 am told that the sand to which my hon. friend refers is not at this point.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is at two places.


William Stevens Fielding: There has been work done at both places undoubtedly, but the work to which this appropriation refers was not in the sand but in the harder material at the mouth of the river.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: That may be, because they were working at the lower' end of the river and they were working also at the entrance to the river or above Nun's Island. Whether this amount of money is specially for that work or not I want to call the attention of the hon. minister to the fact that in order to make a good work at the entrance to the river it should be done in a different way from that in which it is being carried out now.
Doucet's Lauding-dredging, $8,000.


John Barr: Is this done by tender or ir. what way ? It is a very large item.


William Stevens Fielding: This was done by the old system of per hour.


Richard Blain: What is this ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: This is in the county of Nicolet. It is opposite Three Rivers. It is the terminus of the Grand Trunk branch line from Athabaska to Doucet's Landing and there are two boats plying between Three Rivers and Doucet's Landing. It is a very important terminus ; in fact it is the only important connection between the north and south shores at that point.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What was the amount of money voted last year ?


William Stevens Fielding: $12,000 was appropriated in the estimates for the current year. That has all been expended and this further sum is needed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: That will make $20.000 ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the capacity of the dredge there ?


William Stevens Fielding: The cost of removing the material is 13 8-10 cents per cubic yard.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How is it that there is so much difference between the appropriation and the actual amount ? You have $12,000 and $8,000, making altogether $20,000.


William Stevens Fielding: Well, they found that the amount was insufficient to make the work effective and they require to make a further expenditure. This is practically a portion of the harbour of Three Rivers.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: No, it is on the other side from Three Rivers.


William Stevens Fielding: Well, it is the approach to the harbour of Three Rivers and it has proved of great value to. the commerce of Three Rivers.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is on the south side of the river. When a department comes to council and asks for some money is the hon. Minister of Finance not anxious to know why these appropriations should not be made in a better way than that ? Who makes the valuation of such a work ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is made by the engineers of the Public Works Department.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: They make a valuation at $12,000 and spend $20,000. That should strike the mind of my hon. friend when the department come to him for money and when he comes to parliament and asks for a vote.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was told by the owner of the dredges which worked there last year that the bottom of the river is very sandy, and that the new harbour work at Three Rivers had caused the sand to silt over on to the other side. The river is narrow there and there are battures. The people were threatened by the navigation company that if the work was not done the boat service would cease.


Mr. AMES.: The proposal is to excavate 800 feet in length and 400 feet in width. IIow much of that work has been done and how much is there to complete ?


William Stevens Fielding: The quantity already removed as covered by this appropriation is 144,456 cubic yards and about 100,000 yards remain to be done.


Herbert Brown Ames: Then, about two-fifths of the work has been done at an expense of about $20,000.


William Stevens Fielding: It is not a contract for any specific amount of work.


Herbert Brown Ames: Do I understand that new tenders are to be called for the balance of the work ?


William Stevens Fielding: Tenders have been called for the dredging.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Under the old arrangement $20,000 were expended and now you propose to continue the same work ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: At what cost ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are $15,000 in the main estimates for the coming year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Have tenders been received ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, but the contract has not yet been awarded.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When you have expended this $35,000 in all, will the sand continue to silt in there and will you have to renew the dredging every year ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is expected that the work will be good in the main.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: , Will the sand not continue to drift over from the Three Rivers side ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: According to the report prepared by the resident engineer at lhy request that will be provided against. The plan is to deepen the channel for the boats that ply between Three Rivers and Doucet's Landing, and they will build a wharf on the south east of the existing wharf which is the property of the Grand Trunk and which at present is in a complete state of decay.
River St. Maurice-dredging, $11,200.


William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation taken for this work was only $6,000, but Strong pressure was brought to make provision for more expensive work and an additional appropriation is being asked. Considering that the appropriation was only $6,000 originally the additional sum is out of reasonable proportion, but the department informs me that the reasons were very urgent and the public opinion in the district pressed the department to do a larger amount of work.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that river navigable at that point ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are very large saw mill operations going on there.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Do the lumbermen contribute anything to this work ?


William Stevens Fielding: The lumbermen pay fees on slides and booms which are a considerable source of revenue.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: That is another matter altogether.


William Stevens Fielding: Dredging and work of that character would not be done by the lumbermen.


Herbert Brown Ames: '


Rodolphe Lemieux: During the last five years two large lumber companies have established themselves at the mouth of the river and employ about 1,000 people.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I am merely asking for information as to why this money should be voted, and the statement of my hon. friend leads me to believe that the river there is navigated by tugs and barges carrying pulp wood.


Richard Blain: This river has been on the pay roll for many years ; are we to continue year after year dredging it out ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is one of the three largest rivers in the Dominion and it is the river par excellence of the lumber trade in the province of Quebec. Within the last few years large limits have been sold by the Quebec government and several American firms have established themselves there.
Montmorency-wharf improvements, $2,500.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is this a new work ?


William Stevens Fielding: This is a new work, and this balance of $2,500 will finish it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is described here as improving a wharf ; if it is a new wharf what do you want improving it for ?


William Stevens Fielding: I am informed there was an old wharf there, but this is practically a new work.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: There were a great many promises made there last election ; are you redeeming your promises now ?


William Stevens Fielding: Does my hon. friend mean in the county of Montmorency 1


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Yes, Sir.


William Stevens Fielding: But this is in the county of Quebec.	[DOT]


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: This place is in the county of Quebec, not in Montmorency. It is between Chateau Richard and Beauport.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: It must be at the Falls, and I do not think there is any need of a wharf there.


William Stevens Fielding: 
William Stevens Fielding: About $12,300.


Richard Blain: Will it be completed this year ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, iu the coming fiscal year.


George Taylor: Was the work let by tender ?


William Stevens Fielding: No.


George Taylor: It was done during election time by day labour. [DOT]


William Stevens Fielding: There was no election in the summer, when this was done.


Richard Blain: How is it that the government are departing from the policy they are supposed to have of letting these works by tender ?


William Stevens Fielding: This was done by day labour for reasons which the department felt were good.


Richard Blain: I think the committee are entitled to know what those reasons were.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I may inform my hon. friend that in my experience in the county of Gaspe many- wharfs and breakwaters have been built in recent years by day's work at much less than they were tendered for. Although the government have adopted the policy of giving contracts where the amount exceeds $5,000, yet nothing prevents the department from proceeding by' day's work. In the present instance, they proceeded by day's work before this law was passed. I can cite cases iu the county of Gaspd where the amount estimated by the department was doubled and trebled when tenders were called for, and they had to revert to day's work.


Richard Blain: Surely some one would be responsible for that. Do I understand my hon. friend to say that after an engineer has made an estimate and the department has then received tenders, they doubled and trebled the estimate ?
Mr. LEMIE'UX. Yes, and the department in those cases have refused to give the contract.


Uriah Wilson: In cases where they have refused to give a contract and have done the work by day's work, has it cost less or more than the estimate made by the engineer ? A competent engineer ought to know pretty nearly what a work will cost.


Rodolphe Lemieux: To my knowledge the cost by day's work has not exceeded the estimate of the engineer, while in some cases work done by contract has exceeded tne estimate.


Uriah Wilson: Do I understand that the cost of work done by day's work
has come within the estimate of the engineer, while in many cases the tenders have been away above the estimate ? That seems extraordinary.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It has happened many a time.


William Stevens Fielding: That may be accounted for by the works not having been sufficiently advertised. If you have allowed only a few days, anticipating that certain men would tender, they might easily go away above the estimate, hoping to get the work without competition ; but in ordinary cases,
I do not think there would be that difference.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I could cite cases in the county of Gaspe. As to the notices of tenders, my hon. friend may find them every day in the papers, and he will see that some thirty days are allowed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The examples given by my hon. friend from Nlcolet cannot be got everywhere. The county of Gaspe is far away, and the contractors cannot very well take their plant down there. The case under discussion is near Quebec, and the circumstances are quite different. It seems to me that when we have a law on this point, the government should observe it. and that every work costing over $5,000 should be done by contract. I have seen a good many works done by the day, and they are always very costly ; and it seems to me that it would be a great deal better for the government to observe the law. This $2,500 we are now voting has been spent and the amount in the main estimates to be voted is $6,000, so the total will be nearly $9,000.


William Stevens Fielding: 


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: That is another reason why the work should be given by tender. It is near the city of Quebec and there are contractors in Quebec.


Rodolphe Lemieux: They are very busy now.


Uriah Wilson: What was the saving effected between the amount of the lowest tender and the actual cost ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Let me give an example to my hon. friend. Last year we called for tenders to build a breakwater in Mal-baie in the county of Gaspe. There weie five or six tenders, the lowest of wliirh was $40,000, while the estimate of the chief engineer was only $20,000. The minister did not feel justified in giving the contract to the lowest tenderer, so the work was started by day labour and the resident engineer pays he will be able to keep within the chief engineer's estimate. I could gi've many other examples, speaking of my own county. No doubt the contractors are afraid of the distance and the cost of transport of the plant and men, and that is why they

raise their prices ; hut it has been the linvariable experience I have .had in connection with those works in my county, that the system of doing the work by day labour, without contract, is the cheaper.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Will the hon. minister tell us why Conservatives are never employed on these works ? This system of having the government work done without contract is but another way of evading the election law, because they employ nobody but Grits.
Mr. LKiMIEUX. I can tell my hon. friend that whenever work is done in the county of Gaspe the resident engineer appoints a local inspector, and I have invariably told the local inspector to employ both parties because it is public expenditure and both parties should be given work.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Let me draw attention to the condition of affairs in my county. We have there a Welland canal feeder, and the men who work on it are not engaged by either the superintendent or the deputy superintendent of the canal. If a labouring man wants employment on any government work there, he must run the gauntlet of the Liberal Association. His name is brought before the association ; and if acceptable, he is given an order on the deputy superintendent, which entitles him to be employed. Recently a most respectable man, who had been working on the Welland canal feeder for the last 25 years, and who has raised a fine family very much respected in the community, was suspected of having voted for me at the last election, and consequently, when the work was opened as usual, was refused employment. A friend of his called the attention of the president of the Liberal Association to the fact, and the reply was : He voted for Lalor ; he had better go to Lalor to get work. That man has not got one hours' work in Dunnville this year simply because he is suspected of having voted for me. It is most disgraceful that a labouring man should not be able to get work at $1.25 a day shovelling stone or earth for the government without having to run the gauntlet of the Liberal Association or committee and getting its approval. I am a large employer of labour. I have a number of factories and other institutions where I employ labour to a large extent, but there never was a time when I would stoop to compel an ordinary working man to vote for me in order that he might get work. We have, however, the government setting this example to the employers of labour and inducing them to take means to make the labouring man vote their ticket. That is certainly a disgraceful state of affairs. It is all very well to use political influence, but it is disgraceful, on the part of any government to stoop so low- as to eom-Mr. LEMIEUX.
pel labouring men to vote for it in order that they may obtain work.


George Taylor: The. hon. minister has stated that this work is going to cost $11,000 when finished. He asked $3,000 in the main estimates last year, this supplementary vote of $2,500 is to complete last year's work, and he will ask $6,000 next year. What does he propose to do with the Act respecting Public Works ?


William Stevens Fielding: The Act will have to be obeyed.


Uriah Wilson: It has been the law since 1886 that any new work involving an expenditux-e exceeding $5,000 can only be let after calling for tenders.


William Stevens Fielding: When the appropriation was taken, there was only to he an expenditure of $4,000 so that that work would not come within the rule.


George Taylor: My hon. friend knew before starting the work that it was going to cost more than $4,000, because he has already spent more than $5,500 this year.


William Stevens Fielding: There was an estimate originally for the work, but when this appropriation was taken the department could only make its contract for the $4,000.


George Taylor: That is not the way. Hon. gentlemen come down hero with an estimate say to start a post office, to buy a site, get the plans and let the tenders and get say $4,000 to pay dux-ing the first year no matter whether the cost is to be $30,000 or $50,000.


William Stevens Fielding: That is the usual practice.


George Taylor: Why was it not carried out here ? There was evidently a job as my hon. friend beside me suggests ; a lot of promises were made and they were carried out at election time and this $2,500 is to pay a balance not provided for.


William Stevens Fielding: It is nice to have my hon. friend say that promises were carried out. Generally the complaint is the other way. As to why the minister of the day did not treat this as a matter of contract, I cannot definitely answer, but this I can say that the engineers assure me the work performed has been well done and we have fair value for the money. There is no job, no extravagance and we have good value for the money.


Mr. PERLEY.: I wish to say a word in support of what my hon. friend from Haldi-mand has said with regard to men employed by the government. I certainly think that if there is a vacant position of any great value it is only right and fair that the government should appoint a man with the same leanings as they have. That is a reasonable thing provided he is a good man. I take no exception to that what-

ever, but I certainly do not think that the ordinary labouring man should be employed or not employed by the government according to his political leanings. It seems to me that if we are going to have a free country here, men should be allowed to exercise their franchise as they see fit, and as long as they do not take an active part in politics and make themselves offensive, government employees should be allowed to vote as they like and that they should not be asked to which side they belong before they are employed for a day's work. Dike the hon. member for Haldimand I am a large employer of labour myself, and I have never yet nor will I ask a man his politics before I employ him. It is a most unfair, unreasonable and unjust question to put to any man. I have here an afiidavit which X shall read to the House :
Province of Quebec, County of Argentuil.
I, Hilaire Robillard, of the village of Carillon, in the electoral distriot of Argenteuil, do solemnly declare that for some time before, and up to the second day of November last, I had been in the employ of the federal government in charge of a gang of men working on a pier being built in the Ottawa river in the vicinity of the village of Carillon. On the day before polling, in November last, I was informed by Mr. Girard, who was supervising the construction of said pier, that my services were no longer required, no reason being assigned for such action, and I was replaced by another workman. Some time previous to my dismissal I was told by Mr. Girard that any person working for the government would be expected to vote for the party in power. I was at that time and am still a parliamentary elector, and I attended two political meetings in Carillon before the election. My political sympathies were suspected, as I did not give the assurances expected of me, and I heard divers rumours that I was going to be dismissed on account of my politics, or for political reasons. Beyond exercising my electoral franchise I took no part, nor did X participate in said election. Although I am a poor and illiterate man, I always understood that Canada was a free country, and did not exist in the exclusive interest of any political party. And I make this solemn declaration, conscientiously believing the same to be true, and knowing it to be of the same force and effect as if made under oath and by virtue of the Canada Evidence Act.


H. ROBILLARD.
[Stage Direction]
Declared before me at the village of Carillon this 14th day of March, A.D. 1905.

[Stage Direction]
Justice of the Peace.
I think it is only fair and reasonable, as I said before, when there is a vacant postmastership or office of any kind in the Department of Public Works or of Railways and Canals that a person of the political stripe of the government in power should be employed, but beyond that it seems to me to be wrong for the government to go, and most unfair. I do not know which department this was in. Public Works or Railways and Canals, but it does not matter. This question has come 218
up before and it seems to me a very important one. I certainly would like to get some assurance from the government that they do not expect or will not allow their officers to bring pressure on the ordinary servants and employees of the government to vote for the party in power as if the power in power were entitled to their votes simply because the government give them work.
William Stevens Fielding: I believe that the matters referred to both by my hon. friend from Haldimand (Mr. Lalor) and my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) belong to the Department of Railways and Canals, and I have no desire to discuss the affairs of that department, but so far as the principles involved are concerned I have no hesitation in giving my opinion at once. I notice that tihis poor illiterate man has made somewhat of a political document of his affidavit and it strikes me if the man himself had no interest in politics somebody who framed the affidavit for him bad a good deal of interest, because a poor illiterate mail of bis own motion would not make such an affidavit as that. If the affidavit says that any man, high or low, in the service of the government was dismissed from his labour because he exercised his franchise freely and independently, I do not hesitate to say that is wrong. Any attempt to interfere with the free exercise of the franchise by any officer or servant, I would condemn as strongly as my hon. friends. I would not encourage the idea of a Dominion official taking an active part in politics. If he takes no active part but exercises his franchise I say that whether he occupies the position of lieutenant governor or labourer, that is his right and should not be interfered with, and if any man was dismissed because of his vote, that I would condemn, but I would like to have the facts more clearly investigated. As to the general principle so long as we have the principle of party government in Canada, I fancy we will have the same discussion as we have had to-day. The party system seems to have its advantages and its disadvantages, but on the whole it seems to he the best way of working out constitutional government in the British empire. We must take the good and the evil together and one of the evils is that this question of political partisanship always comes up. Just how my hon. friend would draw the distinction between labouring men and men in higher ranks I do not understand. Are we to be told that a man who aspires to a high office can say : ' I am your friend, I have helped you, and I think when a vacancy occurs I should be considered.' But the poor labouring man who uses such an argument is told it is all wrong. If it is legitimate for a man who wants to be a judge or an engineer or to occupy any higher position to come and say : ' I have helped your party in an honourable way, I have supported you and as-



sisted you and want to be considered,' why should not that argument be equally good for the poor labouring man ? I cannot see Any difference, such as my hon. friend would *irge. I have no doubt hundreds of thousands of Conservatives have been employed all over the country on various public works. Iii my own province I know cases that have come within my own observation where the work was given indiscriminately. I would not desire otherwise, but if a choice is made, if there is to be a preference of A to B what ground of complaint is there so long as A is competent to do a good day's work ? Why should there not *be as much liberty to give a preference to a poor labouring man as to a lawyer who wants to be a judge ?	1 cannot see the
distinction. All the interest the public has is to see that a man is not dismissed for the free exercise of the franchise, and that no man is told he cannot vote one way or the other in order to hold his place, and 'lastly that the work is well done at a fair *day's wage. What other interest have the public in the matter ? I cannot see any ground for my hon. friend's grievances.


George Halsey Perley: It seems to me that most of the minister's remarks do not apply to the question under discussion. This man was in the employ of the government.


William Stevens Fielding: I accept that. If he was dismissed on account of his vote, I say it was wrong.


George Halsey Perley: But . the minister will iknow how hard it is to prove a thing of that kind. It is a matter of common report in that section that not only this man, but six or seven others, were dismissed for that reason ; they went to a political meeting, and even had the audacity to applaud the Conservative candidate ; and, within the next few days, they were dismissed. Of *course, it is hard to prove any connection between these two things. The hon. minister says something about the wording of the affidavit. No doubt the man went to a lawyer, as any of us would, and the lawyer drew up the affidavit according to the facts as stated. That affidavit, it seems to me, is as near proof as can be expected in a case *of this kind. I believe the matter should be fully considered, and that the officers who have taken such action should be warned not to repeat it.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I agree that when a government office of emolument is open it is only to be expected that the man who has worked for his party should be given the preference in the appointment. That is party government, and it is conceded to be the proper system for this country. But when It comes to employing ordinary labouring-men, the position is entirely different. We should consider it a great hardship if ordinary employers of labour were to give or refuse employment according to a man's poli-Mr. FIELDING.
tics. I think it is very wrong for the government to set an example of that kind.


William Stevens Fielding: I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Lalor) that even though au employee of the government votes against the government, to dismiss him on that account would be an outrage.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: But that is particularly true in the case of an honest, conscientious labouring man employed upon a public work. I can tell the bon. minister, and prove it beyond a doubt, that a man who wishes work on the Grand river feeder at Dunnville has to run the gauntlet of the Liberal Association committee before he can get work. He gets the order of that committee to the superintendent to engage him. But if he lias voted for Lalor, or is even suspected of having done so, employment Is refused him. I have in mind the case of one man, a worthy man, one who has raised a family that is respected by everybody. When he applied for employment he was told that he had voted for Lalor and so could not be given work. I say that principle is radically wrong, and the minister who is in charge of the department should issue a specific order to the officer in charge of this work stating- that men are to be employed regardless of politics, so long as they are good men. The minister must know that it adds immensely to the difficulty of getting good men for these public works if the superintendent is not allowed to exercise his own judgment, but must consider politics in making his selection. I know that men who are almost worthless are engaged on public works because they are supposed to vote for the government. We do not get the worth of our money from the labour of these men.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend (Mr. Lalor) has confused two different things. I agree with him in one, but not in the other. One is the question of the dismissal of a public officer because of bis vote, and the other is the question of exercising a political preference in filling a vacancy in the public service. If a man is in the public service, having got there under the Conservative regime, we assume that be got there honourably and is there by right, and there should be no interference with his right to vote as he pleases. In my own department I have men who were appointed before my day, and I never interfere with them, nor would I allow them to be interfered with, in voting as they please. But when it comes to the filling of a vacancy. I have a right to consider the politics of the applicant, provided always that I put in none but good men. But why the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lalor) should draw a distinction between the employment by the government of a labouring man and any other man, I do not understand. A private employer would not make that distinction-whatever the position to be filled, be would not con-

sider the politics of the applicant. If he wished to engage a lawyer, he would not consider whether that lawyer was a Grit or a Tory. But is the labouring man who has done good service for his party to be put upon a different plane from any other ? Why should he not be as much entitled to have a preference in a vacancy that he can fill as the lawyer who wishes to be a judge ?


Francis Ramsey Lalor: With the minister's permission, I will correct him on that point. It is not a question of engaging a man, but a question whether a man must change his politics in order to get employment.


William Stevens Fielding: That would be the case m the highly paid offices as well as in any other, and my hon. friend (Mr. Lalor) sees nothing wrong in political patronage in an office that carries a good salary. I myself justify that, always provided that capable men are employed. The hon. gentleman says that in the case he refers to inefficient men are employed. I say that is wrong ; no engineer should be asked to employ men on a public work who are not capable I do not hesitate to say that this is a matter that I had hoped would not arise. I have endeavoured to see that the Conservatives as well as Liberals get a fan- share of work. But if it were put to me : Here is a vacancy for a labouring man and here are two men applying, one a Grit and one a Tory, and both good men, I would support the Grit, just as my hon. friend would prefer the Tory.


George Taylor: My hon. friend from Ilal-dimand (Mr. Lalor) did not put it in that way. My hon. friend from Dorchester (Mr. Morin) referred to this work going on at Montmorency, for the performance of which the government asked $4,000. And they have spent $6,000 already and are asking for $o,000 to complete the work. They have done this work by day labour, yet a man who votes Conservative cannot get a dollar of that work. Is that fair ?


William Stevens Fielding: I desire to be perfectly frank with my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor). If I were in Quebec and in that district, and twenty men were wanted on that work, and twenty Liberals and twenty Conservatives applied, all good men, I would give the preference to the Liberals, and I would not think I was doing wrong. And I frankly say that I would expect the hon. gentleman, if his party were in power and the matter were within his sphere of influence, to give his preference to the Conservatives.


George Taylor: Then the hon. minister would not show himself a good business man. This government professes to be a business government; yet, if you take the employers of this country, I venture to say you cannot find one who, employing men to do labour, asks what the applicant's politics are. Here is work on which the government are spending over $11,000 contrary to
218i
the law, and yet no labouring man who happens to be a Conservative can get a day's work on that job, no matter how hard up he may be. No manufacturer would carry on his business in that way. I have men in my own employ who turn out and work against me at every election. They are good men, and they have a right to do as they please. I employ a large number of men, and I never inquire of any of them what side he voted for or what his religion was. And the government ought to do the same. I would like to ask the hon. minister how much the engineer's estimate for this work was when it was originally brought down ?


William Stevens Fielding: The engineer informs me that it was $9,000, if he remembers correctly. I do not want to get involved in two distinct questions. As to the value of the work and whether too much money was expended on it or not, I think, that is a proper question. But we have for the last few minutes been discussing not that question but the general principle involved in giving a political preference to one's own political friends. In private affairs you do not do that because private affairs are not conducted on the party system, but I venture to say that my hon. friend's friends in the province of Ontario will give a political preference to their own friends, they will have a perfect right to do so, and if they are attacked for it I will be one to say that they have a perfect right to give a preference to their own friends whether it be a matter of day's labour or the appointment of a high officer, always provided they appoint a man capable of doing the work and of giving an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: The hon. Minister of Finance did not follow the instructions given to him and to the country by the right hon. leader of the government (Sir Wilfrid Laurier). Here in 1896 the right hon. leader of tlie government said that where men were working for the government it made no difference whether they were Grits or Tories they should not be removed. He said that all men would have the right to vote the way they chose and that they would not be interfered with. Contrast that with the example we had in 1900 when Mr. Blair wrote to the manager of the Soulanges canal and said to him :	Have you any men in your
employ who voted for Bergeron ? If you have, turn them all out. This is the very man and that letter was read in this House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This canal is not in the constituency of my hon. friend from Beau-harnois (Mr. Bergeron). It is on the other side of the river.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: What is the difference so long as they work on the canal ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Many of them work on both sides.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Are those the instructions given by the leader of the government ? Not
at all I wish the hon. Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) were here to-day. I would give him another example. Last year I asked him for a post office to be granted at Detroit where 500 people would he served. But no, I was refused because I was a lory. Since then he has opened up two new post offices and probably from ten to twenty people will be served by these post offices. That is the way the other side of the House carries out the instructions of the leadei of the government.


William Stevens Fielding: Misery loves company.
I am in very good company on that question.
I applied to my hon. friend the Postmaster General a short time ago to put a post office in a certain place in my own province but l regret to say that he refused to do it. So, 1 can sympathize with my hon. friend (Mi. Morin). We are both in the same box. \\ e have both been treated in the same way by this hard hearted gentleman.
. Mr. LALOR. It was time to strike.


William Stevens Fielding: No, I suppose that what, the hon. gentleman refers to was the bolt, but I believe that at the time of the bolt they were not able to do any business. As to the other question I think my hon. friend must be mistaken about that letter ot Mr. Blair I have no recollection of ever having heard a letter of the character which my hon. friend states from Mr. Blair read m this House. If there was such a letter it was a most extraordinary one. I would like to hear from Mr. Blair on the question, but I do not think that he ever wrote any such letter as that. Certainly I would not defend any such letter. I think there must be some mistake.


Mr. MILLER.: I have a much worse complaint to make against the hon. Postmaster General than that of the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Morin) and the hon. Minister of Finance. In my riding a postmaster applied for an increase of his salary. I made application on his behalf. My hon. friend the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) looked up to see what was the revenue ot the office and he reduced his salary notwithstanding the fact that the postmastei was a good Grit.


Mr. FINLAY.: I would like to ask hon. gentlemen opposite if it is not a fact^ that the Whitney government have been discharging officials in the province of Ontario right and left.


John Barr: If the Whitney government follow the course pursued by hon. gentlemen oppposite during the last ten years _ there will be very few Grits left in office m the province of Ontario. We know that during the last ten years no government in the world has discharged as many officials on account of their political leanings as the present government has done. We have this going on all over. They are weeding them


Jean-Baptiste Morin: out every year by the hundreds, and I car. assure you that there is only a very small remnant of Conservative officers left m tne province of Ontario, and I presume that the state of affairs in other provinces is just as bad as it is in Ontario. As far as the Ontario government are concerned they have kept their hands off the officials unless there was cause. I challenge anybody to show where there has been a single official in the province of Ontario discharged by the Whitney government since they came into power without cause.


William Stevens Fielding: The same here.


John Barr: I venture to say that there is a large number of officials in Ontario to-day, who, if they have not been discharged ought to have been. They took a very active part in the last campaign. They appeared on the platform and engaged in active politics in other ways. They adhered to the Reform government and did everything m then power to defeat the Conservative candidates. We have to-day for the first time in the Dominion of Canada the spectacle of the hon. Minister of Finance getting up in his place and openly and boldly declaring that to the victor belongs the spoils. That is the position he has taken and he has told us that if there are men to be found that will do the work it should be given to Grits and Conservatives should not be employed. I venture to say that the object of such a statement is to give notice to those who are employing men on public works throughout this Dominion that it is the wish of the present government that they shall .employ Grits.
I say it is an extraordinary course to pursue yet we have had this principle proclaimed here in this House I think probably for the first time, although it has been acted upon on every possible occasion. We do know that even away down to the working men down to those employed on the public works they extend this principle, that they watch these men very closely that they choose their own political friends and that they dismiss men by the hundreds all over the Dominion where they find that at the last election they in any way showed their preference for the Conservative candidate. I think this is a very serious state of affairs, and I think that even Reformers for then-own sake should pursue a somewhat milder course. The words uttered by the hon. Minister of Finance will echo and re-echo throughout this Dominion, and I have no doubt that the Conservative friends of Mr. Whitney will point to these words and will say : Here we have the announcement from the Minister of Finance that this government are carrying out the spoils system, and that where Tories are found to be employed on a government work in the most humble positions if they can obtain Reformers they will discharge them because they are not going to employ Conservatives. That is the position that has been taken here

to-day and I venture to say again that if the Reformers were to be treated in the province of Ontario the same as the Conservatives have been all through this Dominion it would he very much worse for them. Whatever justification the Whitney government may have I hope they will not follow the example of the present government to the extent they have in weeding out their opponents ; in fact, I hope no man in Ontario will ever be disturbed in so far as the provincial government are concerned on account of his political leanings, and I hope the time will never come that they will get down to the position of asking a man what his political leanings are when he is asking for employment on a public work for which the people and not the government have to pay.
It seems to me that this is a declaration which is dangerous to the public weal and it will be acted upon as doubtless it was intended to be by the friends of the government. Notwithstanding that the strongest plank in the Liberal platform was that good officials would not be interfered with, and notwithstanding that they denounced the Conservatives, for ten years the Liberal government has been decapitating Conservative officials. Then, that safety valve which we supposed existed requiring that contracts over $5,000 should be let by public tender ; that has disappeared under the present government. They must know from their engineers what a work will cost before they undertake it, but their policy is 'to come down to parliament the first year asking for a vote under $5,000, then let the work without competition, and then come back next session asking for another vote of several thousand dollars thus escaping the law which they themselves placed upon the statute books. That is an iniquitous policy. The policy which we have heard announced to-day, that to the victors belong the spoils is also a vicious system. It came to us from the American side of the line and it is practised in Canada just as strongly and just as openly as it is in the country of its origin.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend knows I did not lay down any such doctrine.
tMr. CAMPBELL. It is refreshing to hear the member for Dufferin (Mr. Barr) protesting against the spoils system. He says this government has dismissed a great many officials, but let him look around the cities of Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal at the hundreds of officials in the Customs, the Inland Revenue, and Post Office, and he cannot point to a single man who has been dismissed except for cause. Offensive partisanship or inefficiency has been proved in each case after investigation. Let the hon. gentleman (Mr. Barr) take his advice to his friends in Toronto. Mr. Whitney does not hold a court of investigation and ask for evidence ; he chops off the heads [DOT]of Liberal officials. Every license commissioner in the whole province of Ontario almost has been dismissed without cause, and every license inspector has been dismissed.


John Barr: No.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: Nearly every one of them. In West York, East York, North York and in Kent these officials were dismissed and no investigation held.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Will you say they were dismissed without cause ? Will you say as the representative of Centre York that the license inspectors did their duty ?


Archibald Campbell: Yes, I will. In East and West York the license inspectors were most efficient men and men who had not taken any part in politics since their appointment several years ago. Mr. Russel in East York is one of the most highly respected men in the county ; lie is a man who had studiously avoided taking part in politics and yet his head has been cut off without investigation or inquiry. In West York it is the same. For the few months Mr. Whitney has been in power he has dismissed hundreds of officials all over the province. The fishery overseers have gone also and all without an investigation. Mr. Whitney is fresh at the business yet ; he is making good headway so far, and if he continues I venture to say there will be very few Liberal officials in Ontario in a short while. Are we squealing or whining about it V For the last ten years these gentlemen opposite have been whining and squealing because officials have been dismissed for offensive partisanship, but it is time they let up on that and turned their attention to their friends in Toronto who are doing ten times worse. Possibly there may be one official out of hundreds who has been dismissed, but I can tell you that the course pursued by this government in this respect reflects the highest credit on them. To these gentlemen opposite I say : go and talk to Mr. Whitney as you are talking here and it may do some good.


John Barr: It is all very well for the hon. gentleman to talk generally, but I challenge him to put his finger on a single license inspector who has been dismised without cause.


Archibald Campbell: East and W7est York and Kent.


John Barr: In East and WTest York they were bitter partisans and if they had not been dismissed it would have been a disgrace to the government. In the first place they did nothing to carry out the law. We all know that the license commissioners are only appointed from year to year.


Archibald Campbell: I refer to license inspectors.


John Barr: Yes, they allowed the gambling hells to operate and they let the hotels

keep open at all hours In that part of the country.


Archibald Campbell: They did not.


John Barr: I speak from what I know, and I say that they did nothing but draw their salaries. In Dufferin we have the same inspector, but the commissioners were changed and I can assure you that the change was a great improvement. The inspectors that have not been removed for cause now know that they have to do their duty, and that if they do not they will be dismissed. Every day there are cases brought up in this House where good officials have been dismissed for no reason whatever. I have myself pointed out that in my own county a postmaster after seven years service was dismissed without any cause except that ' he was a Conservative and exercised his franchise.


Mr. T. MARTIN.: I am astonished to hear the member for Dufferin (Mr. Barr) make such statements in this House; I challenge him to give the name of one man in the large county of Wellington who has been dismissed by this government on account of polities. The hon. gentleman knows very well that we had a great many civil servants in Wellington who were strong partisans. It is astonishing to me that a man of as high standing as the hon. member for Dufferin would make such statements. In the province of Ontario there has scarcely been a man removed from the position he occupied in 1896 for such cause as the hon. gentleman has mentioned. I challenge him to name one man who has been removed for that cause in the large and populous county of Wellington, which contains the city of Guelph ; but I can name several Conservatives who have been appointed or reappointed to good positions in that county.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Give us the names of the ones reinstated.


Thomas Martin: I will give the hon. gentleman not only the names *of those reinstated, but the names of those appointed. I will give him the names privately.


Mr. CHISHOLM.: What we object to is that these men are breaking the law, which is that they must take tenders if the amount is over $5,000. They are breaking the law by doing such work by day's work, and they are using that day's work to make votes; that is the sum and substance of the whole thing ; and after the announcement made by the minister to-day, we understand why they are breaking the law. It the law makers are to be law breakers, what is the country coming to ?


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend cannot undei stand why they are breaking the law, Mr. BARR.
because as a matter of fact they are not breaking it.


Henry Horton Miller: With reference to the dismissal of officials, the Toronto 1 Telegram ' a Conservative paper, some time ago urged the Whitney government not to dismiss Liberal officials from office, saying that the Laurier government in that respect had set a good example.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight a'clock.


SECOND READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 149) respecting the South Shore Railway Company and the Quebec Southern Railway Company.-Mr. Brown.
Bill (No. 150) respecting the Interprovincial and James Bay Railway Company.- Mr. Devlin.
Bill (No. 153) for the relief of George Pearson.-Mr. Calvert.
Bill (No. 164) to incorporte the Monarch Bank of Canada.-Mr. Gordon.
Bill (No. 166) respecting certain Patents of the Ideal Manufacturing Company.

Mr. Campbell.
Bill (No. 167) for the relief of Arthur Howe Hersey.-Mr. Johnston (Lambton).

[Stage Direction]
House in committee of supply.
Pierreville wharf, Quebec, $3,000.
['Certainly ; any of them.\nSome resolutions reported.']
William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation was $6,000 and a further expenditure of $3,000 is required. It is a pile structure 150 feet long by 148 feet wide, 30 feet high and 5 teet deep at low water. It was begun as soon as the appropriations were available after the close of last session and is now completed. This will pay for the balance due.
Harbours, rivers and bridges, Quebec-general repairs and improvements, $10,000.


William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation in the main estimates was $20,000. This is for general repairs to a number of works. The largest single item is $1,086.61 for work on Yamaska Lock.


George Taylor: This will be required up to 30th June this year ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.
St. Alphonse de Bagotville wharf-repairs, &C.,. $1,000.


William Stevens Fielding: 
Uriah Wilson: Was this done without tender ?


William Stevens Fielding: 
Uriah Wilson: It must be a much more powerful dredge.


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, it is a dredge capable of doing better work.


Richard Blain: Who is inspector of a dredging plant of this kind ? When the government engages a plant at so much per hour or day, who has to give a report as to how much work is being done every day?


William Stevens Fielding: The work comes in a general way under the supervision of the resident engineer at London, Mr. Ling, and there was a local inspector besides.


Richard Blain: What would be the duty of the local inspector and how much would he be paid ?


William Stevens Fielding: 
Richard Blain: Who was the inspector ?


William Stevens Fielding: The name is not among the memoranda furnished me.


George Taylor: 
William Stevens Fielding: The net result Is the same. The price per hour varies in accordance with the quantity the dredge is able to move and the net result per cubic yard is about the same.


George Taylor: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
George Taylor: I understood $8 an hour was for a dredge that would do 1,000 yards in 12 hours.


William Stevens Fielding: I certainly did not mean to say that. The engineers inform me a dredge that moves 1,000 yards a day is paid $10 an hour.


Richard Blain: Perhaps the minister could give the amount of money paid for the-inspection of this work.


William Stevens Fielding: 
George Taylor: 
Mr. BOYCE.: What is that ?


William Stevens Fielding: 
Arthur Cyril Boyce: Under contract ?


William Stevens Fielding: By the usual arrangement, so much per hour, having due regard to the quantity of material to be moved.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Has dredging been done there before ?


William Stevens Fielding: At the time of the construction of the wharf some dredging was done there but not otherwise.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: How long ago was that t


William Stevens Fielding: Two years ago.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: By the same parties ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, it was done by the contractor for the wharf.
Mi'. BLAIN. Whose constituency is this in V


William Stevens Fielding: East Algoma.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: What was the representation made as to the necessity of this dredging ? I did not know there was any necessity for any dredging in Blind river. There was always a good harbour there.


William Stevens Fielding: It not infrequently happens that after a wharf is built you discover that you want dredging in order to allow large vessels to approach the wharf.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I heard of some promises before the last election of dredging contracts to be given in that neighbourhood, but I expected much larger amounts. I suppose this is the performance of one of these promises ? The hon. member for East Algoma was largely interested in that and he moved his dredge up to the Port

Arthur district when he saw the contracts going through.


William Stevens Fielding: Not for this dredging that is referred to.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: What amount of dredging is necessary there ?


William Stevens Fielding: The work is already practically done. It is not contemplated that more dredging is necessary.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Has all the work been
done by this firm ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, all under this appropriation.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Who is the superintendent ?


William Stevens Fielding: The work at that point would come under the supervision of the late Mr. H. A. Gray, engineer of the department at Toronto, and there was also a local inspector whose name I cannot give now.


Richard Blain: The minister is very anxious to impress the committee that they are fulfilling all the promises that were made and l would remind him of a promise of some dredging in Peel given five years ago. That promise was renewed each year since that time, and even if we are not able to get it done I would like at least a renewal of the promise from the minister, and when he is in another mood of fulfilment of promises perhaps the department will be able to send a dredge to Peel to do something that is a public necessity. The late Minister of Public Works sent an inspector to examine the work who gave a very favourable report saying that some work was urgently required to be done in order that the harbour could be used. It is very close to Toronto and is found useful for vessels coming in which in rough weather cannot go into Toronto, but can enter such a harbour as Port Credit. The present Minister of Public Works was spoken to and I wish to say in justice to the hon. gentleman who is not present that he also 'has promised that this work would be done. The complaint is that they cannot get dredges, but I notice tfrom the estimates each year that dredges reach other counties without very much trouble, and I hope the minister now will look into this matter so that it will not be necessary for me to bring it up each year.


William Stevens Fielding: I can only promise to *call the attention of the minister to it. I must not give one of those promises to my bon. friend which he says are so easily given and not carried out. If I give it I would like to fulfil it. But, I will call the attention of the minister to it. I would not care to say more at the present time.


George Taylor: I understand the hon. minister to say that this work at Blind .river has been completed ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: 


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


George Taylor: And that there was no sum in the main estimates of last year for doing this work ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, there was an appropriation in the main estimates of $7,000,


George Taylor: For dredging ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


George Taylor: I understood the minister to say that there was some dredging done here.


William Stevens Fielding: It has no connection with this. The hon. member for Algoma (Mr. Boyce) asked if there had been any previous dredging. I said not in connection with this item but that a wharf had been built there.


Mr. CLEMENTS.: While we are on this dredging item, I would like to say that I notice that there is no appropriation in the main estimates for dredging in the mouth of the River Thames. I desire to impress upon the government the importance of this matter, and I trust that before the supplementary estimates come down the government will take it into their serious consideration and see that there is a proper appropriation for the work. My hon. friend from West York (Mr. Campbell), my hon. friend from East Kent (Mr. Gordon) and the hon. members for Essex know the importance of this work. I have had several letters lately on this subject in one of which it is stated that :
The schooner ' Stademan ' is at the mouth of the river with a load of coal for the Canadian Flour Mills Company. The water is low on the bar this year. There is not over nine feet three inches, and the ' Stademan ' draws ten feet. She will have to be lightened over.
I have had a number of such letters upon this work and I think that the importance of the work was drawn to the attention of the government by my late opponent, who, I think, threatened to resign if the work was not done. I hope I will not be under the painful necessity of making a similar threat. I might also state that last year the government spent a good deal of money in the River Thames making a survey with the intention of dredging the river to a depth of 15 feet. I should like the government to carry this work out. I think it is an undertaking of very great importance. The city of Chatham is an important point and we have to rely a great deal on the River Thames for shipment by boat. The mouth of the river is something that both governments have taken care of for years, but it has now got into such a state that the government must do something to give us relief.


William Stevens Fielding: I will see that the attention of the minister is called to the hon. gentleman's observations.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: May I ask the hon. minister, if, in addition to the information which he is going to bring down about this Blind river dredging, he will tell us how much work was done for the amount that was paid out ?


William Stevens Fielding: The quantity of material removed consisting of hard-pan, clay and sand in 1,154 hours was 39,242 cubic yards. That was more troublesome and cost us about 24 cents per yard.
Barry's bay wharf-Matawaska river-to complete payments, $256.


George Taylor: Was this wharf let by contract ?


William Stevens Fielding: That was done by contract.


George Taylor: This is the balance to complete ?


William Stevens Fielding: This is asked to provide for payments due the contractor for additional works authorized in connection with a public wharf 100 x 25 feet built at Barry's bay on the Madawaska river.
Grand river-dredging at mouth, $6,500.


George Taylor: Where is this ?


William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation for 1904-5 was $10,900.


George Taylor: Was it done by contract?


William Stevens Fielding: That was done by dredges on the basis of so much per hour.


Uriah Wilson: There was nothing in the main estimates ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, there was an appropriation in the main estimates of the current year of $10,900.


John Barr: Where was that dredging on the Grand river ?


William Stevens Fielding: First at the mouth of the river and afterwards at Dunnville.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Who is doing the dredging ?


William Stevens Fielding: The work is now completed. It was done by Mr. C. S. Boone's dredge the ' General Meade ' at the rate of $12 per working hour.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that the principle of giving out works of this kind by the hour had been discontinued.


William Stevens Fielding: That is true.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: That was the complaint made when the original estimates were under consideration and now we find that the same policy is being pursued.


William Stevens Fielding: This work is already done and tenders are being invited for other works now on the basis of so much per cubic yard.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I would ask the hon. minister if it is not within his knowledge that dredges at this very moment in the employ of the Department of Public Works or the Department of Railways and Canals are receiving remuneration by the hour ?


William Stevens Fielding: I could not answer in regard to the Department of Railways and Canals, but the chief engineer informs me that work of that character is not now being done by the Department of Public Works.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: So that we can understand that practice has been wholly discontinued?


William Stevens Fielding: Tenders are now invited on the basis of so much per cubic yard for that class of work generally. Exceptional circumstances arise to justify some special case, and if that be so it will have to be defended on its merits, but it is not the policy of the department and no case of that kind is now contemplated.


Uriah Wilson: Could the hon.
minister give us the page In the main estimates at which this appropriation appears?


William Stevens Fielding: It was in the main estimates for the past year, not in the estimates for the coming year. In the main estimates for 1904-5 there was an appropriation of $10,900. It will be found in the Supply Bill, I am quite sure, but I will send for the book.


John Barr: AVould the hon. gentleman tell us when this $6,500 was earned ?


William Stevens Fielding: Within the current fiscal year which is now approaching a conclusion. I am told that the work was finished in September last.


Richard Blain: Could the hon. minister tell us where these advertisements are published. in what newspapers? Are they published in the local newspapers or in the daily
newspapers in the province of Ontario ?


William Stevens Fielding: They are usually published in the city of Toronto and in the newspapers of the district in which the work is to be done.


Richard Blain: Has the minister a copy of the advertisements referred to ?


William Stevens Fielding: If it is required I will get a copy of the advertisement calling for some of these tenders.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I am sure the Minister of Finance regards the incident in connection with the Port Arthur dredging with as much regret as any man in this House. In order to avoid any such irregularity in

future I would ask that there might be a time fixed between the first appearance of an advertisement calling for tenders and the date at which the tenders are to be opened. Even if the Port Arthur incident stood alone it would furnish sufficient reason for a departmental rule being laid down in this connection.


William Stevens Fielding: It is difficult to lay down any universal rule. I suppose any business man would say that under ordinary circumstances probably two or three weeks notice would be reasonable.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: In the Port Arthur case it was only three days notice.


William Stevens Fielding: Unless there were some exceptional circumstances I would say that three days would not be enough.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: The Minister of Finance knows that the Port Arthur incident is absolutely indefensible.


William Stevens Fielding: I know nothing of the sort.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: You heard what was stated in the House ?


William Stevens Fielding: I was not as much interested in the public works items then as I am now.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Then I will call to the memory of the hon. gentleman the fact that the advertisement was dated the 7th of April, it first appeared in the Toronto ' Globe,' April 11, and in the Montreal ' Herald,' April 10, and the tenders were to be opened on the 14th. The plans and specifications were to be inspected in Ottawa, and the work was two days distant at Thunder Bay which was then covered by two feet of ice. Surely the Minister of Finance must admit that this was indefensible. Will he now offer any guarantee to the House that a proper interval shall be fixed between the calling for tenders and their reception so that this thing may not occur again ?


William Stevens Fielding: I think each transaction must be defended on its own merits. I am informed that the hon. gentleman is mistaken when he says that it was necessary to inspect the plans and specifications. I am told the advertisement contained whatever information was necessary to enable parties to tender.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: There were no specifications whatever announced in the advertisement, but simply the fact that the plans and specifications could be inspected at Ottawa.


William Stevens Fielding: I am told the advertisement contained sufficient information to enable any one to tender who desired to do so.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Then what was the object of referring tenderers to the plans and specifications at Ottawa ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: 


William Stevens Fielding: If one wants to come to the department to get more information he is free to do so. The statement is made to me that the information in the advertisement was sufficient to enable a man to tender. I think the time was extended in the case referred to.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: But would it have been extended had attention not been called to it in the House ?


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know that it would have been.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I know that the Minister of Finance will not defend such a transaction, and if he acknowledges, as I think he will honestly acknowledge that there was no defence in this case, then I ask him if it would not be wise to fix some minimum time between the notice and the opening of the tenders.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know that any rule can be laid down except the general one that reasonable and sufficient notice should be given in every case where the government invites tenders.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: That was the rule before but it was not respected.


William Stevens Fielding: It often happens that for some good reason it is found that the time is too short and that it has to be extended. I agree with the hon. gentleman that reasonable and sufficient notice should be given, but if he asks me to specify the number of days I would like to reserve judgment on that.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Would the hon. gentleman say that the minimum time should be ten or twenty days ?


William Stevens Fielding: I think it is better to allow each transaction to stand on its own merits. It is enough to say there should be a fair and reasonable notice that will give every man within reasonable distance an opportunity of tendering.


George Taylor: In the Port Arthur case the time was only extended when attention was called to it in parliament, and the case was so indefensible that the Minister of Public Works had to back down and extend the time. The advertisement in that case was dated on the 7th of April, it was first published on the 11th and tenders were to be opened on the 14th so that there were only 3 days for the public to tender. It went further than that: the dredge had to be owned by a person in Canada, it had to be on the ground on the 20th of April before the ice was out of the harbour where the work was to be done, there was no allowance for towing and there was only one dredge in that locality which was partly owned by a member of this House. The government should learn from that instance that a reasonable time should' be specified so that the public money may not be given

away to political friends as was clearly the intention in this case.
Now, with reference to the Grand river dredging, the item under discussion, the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Lalor) was obliged to leave this afternoon, and as there is not going to be a vote in the main estimates or further supplementary estimates for this work I will either have to ask the item to stand or else get the promise of the Finance Minister that when the Ontario estimates are being discussed the hon. member for Haldimand will have an opportunity to make the remarks he intended to make on this vote. This is another Conmee-Bowman job as I understand from my friend (Mr. Lalor). This work was done by a dredge owned by Mr. Bowman, and I believe that several hundred dollars were allowed him for towing this dredge from the mouth of the Grand river to Dunnville besides the handsome price paid him for the work. No wonder that the appropriation of last year is overrun by some $6,000 if the statements made by my hon. friend from Haldimand are correct.


William Stevens Fielding: I quite agree that if the hon. gentleman from Haldimand desires to say anything on this matter, that on the general vote for dredging in Ontario he should have the opportunity for a free discussion. If there is reason to believe that there is anything wrong in the expenditure I would suggest to my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) that some of these days when the Public Accounts Committee meets, the matter be taken up.


George Taylor: The trouble is that this money is being spent this year and we cannot get it before the Public Accounts Committee, but you will hear about it next year.


William Stevens Fielding: Wait till you see us next year.


Richard Blain: I have here the advertisement with reference to the Port Arthur dredging as it appeared in the Toronto ' Globe ' of April the 11th, 1905. It says :
Plans showing where dredging is to be performed can he seen in the office of the chief engineer of the department, where also any additional information required can be obtained.
If the Finance Minister looks at the advertisement he will see that no specifications are given and that it does not even say where the work is to be done. In fact it invites tenderers to go to the Public Works Department to get information. This very incident makes it most important that some fixed time should be provided. A minimum time should be fixed and that minimum time should be ample to allow all persons who desire to tender for work of this kind, a proper opportunity to do so.


William Stevens Fielding: I think there was an earlier advertisement which contained no information on that subject.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: That is the advertisement we quarrelled about.
Mr. FIELDING, I think the hon. gentleman's quarrel was with the lack of time and not the lack of information.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: That was one of the principal grounds of complaint, that it only gave three days' time for an intending contractor to ascertain at what part of Port Arthur harbour the dredging was to be done, the character of the dredging and the conditions prevailing. Then, if an examination of the ground was necessary, he would have had to use a flying machine to get there, and then to cut through two feet of solid ice in order to ascertain what the bottom of the harbour was like, and then be back here with his tender, all within the space of three days. The effect of that was Simply to eliminate from competition everything except the Conmee & Bowman dredges, which were ice-bound in Port Arthur harbour, and these dredges alone could perform that work. Another fact was brought forcibly to the attention of the government, the extraordinarily significant fact that no allowance was made for towing, whereas in other contracts as high as $1,500 had been allowed for towing plant to the scene of operations. That certainly was not conducive to any tenderers other than Conmee & Bowman, or the owners of the dredges then in the harbour. It was the first advertisement that was complained of and which the hon. member for Peel has cited. That advertisement, the hon. gentleman must admit, contains no such information as he thought a little while ago it did contain.


William Stevens Fielding: I was informed the first advertisement did contain such information. However, that is not the point in question ; it is the time that is under discussion, and if three days only were allowed, I think that insufficient. I understand the real point of grievance was the time, and I quite admit that three days is not sufficient notice for such work.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Does the hon. gentleman not now think it is high time, when irregularities so grave occur in connection with a contract involving $195,000 expenditure, that a principle was laid down, and that the government should say : We will not allow a work of this kind to be awarded except after advertisement for ten days or two weeks, so that the public will know the minimum amount of advertising that will be allowed by the department ? Surely it is not unreasonable to ask this. If this thing had not been brought to the attention of the government on April 13, the day before these tenders were closed, contracts involv-

tag $195,000 of public money would have been let practically without any opportunity of tendering, and without intending contractors having an opportunity even of knowing that tenders were invited, and, if they did know, they could only tender in the dark, because they could not tell from the advertisement what the conditions were there without coming to Ottawa to inspect these plans and specifications, and probably they might have been told when they came to Ottawa that they would have to go to Port Arthur to inspect the bottom of the lake in order to verify the conditions shown in the plans. The hon. gentleman admits that the time is too short. Will he say now that not a contract shall be let except on such and such notice, or will he stick to the principle that reasonable time shall be allowed ? That was the principle in vogue before the Port Arthur grievance was raised. The 'Minister of Public Works said that was the principle on which these contracts were let, that reasonable time should be allowed, and this he considered a reasonable time. If that was the principle of the department before this irregularity was brought to the attention of the government, surely it is not unreasonable to ask the government now to change it and stipulate that at least a certain number of days, to be increased according to the importance of the contract and the distance to a longer time, shall be allowed.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not agree that any good purpose could be served by stipulating a specific number of days. I would be quite prepared to agree that ten days' notice would be little enough for a work of this kind, and that it would be better to have longer notice, but I would not be prepared to lay down a minimum time. I think the matter will have to be left to what is fair and reasonable ; and if that is not done, my hon. friends will certainly not fail to remind us of it. Meantime, I promised the hon. member for Lennox to confirm a statement I made as to a certain appropriation having been made. I presume from his having left the chamber that he did not consider it important, but it will be found on page 42 of the Supply Bill.
Collingwood harbour, $50,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This is for unpaid accounts for dredging performed by C. S. Boone, by dredges Nos. 10 and 14, in channel, to 24 feet depth, and some cribwork, steps, &c. There was an appropriation of $50,000 taken for the work in the main estimates, but a larger amount of work was undertaken, and it was found necessary to ask for $50,000 to close up the transactions of the year. $60,000 is asked in the estimates for the coming year.


George Taylor: We will discuss it then.


William Stevens Fielding: There will be ample opportunity on the main estimates.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Whitby harbour-dredging, $4,050.


William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation in that case was $10,000, and a further sum of $4,050 was required to complete the payments. The dredge ' Trenton,' owned by Contractor R. Weddell, operated from August 17 to November 14, 1904, the close of navigation. The dredging was carried on between the east and west piers, alongside the north pier and in the slip beside the elevator.


George Taylor: $14,050 has been spent ?


William Stevens Fielding: The work is done.


George Taylor: It certainly seems to me that these over-expenditures are extremely large this year in nearly every instance. The elections certainly must have had something to do with the over-expenditures. I do not know by what right the government asks for $50,000 to make certain improvements and then spends $100,000 without consulting parliament. I think that when the amount voted is exhausted the work should stop until parliament meets again and the government can ask for another vote, instead of -taking carte blanche to spend as much money as they like. I think the government should ask what they require for the year, and parliament will cheerfully vote it if, in their opinion, the work should be done. I do not think the government should say : We asked for $50,000, but we had an election and spent $100,000, and therefore must have another $50,000.


Richard Blain: Was the Collingwood contract completed ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes. The contractor was O. S. Boone, and the work was done on the basis of so much per yard-$2.30 for rock and $1.40 for hard-pan.


Richard Blain: I notice that last year tills matter was pretty fully discussed, and the minister, Mr. Hyman, said :
The total amount of the contract is $87,000, we paid on that $49,000, and this is to complete the balance of the work.
What the committtee would like to know is whether the contract referred to by the minister at that time has been completed, and if so, what amount is unpaid on it ?


William Stevens Fielding: The engineers inform me that the contract there referred to was finished, and that afterwards additional work was authorized at the same rates, so as to widen the channel.


Richard Blain: That does not answer the point. The minister of last year stated that the work for which $50,000 was to be appropriated was let by tender, and that the contract was for $87,000. What the committee would like to know is whether that contract has been completed. The minister now says that the work has been done at so much per cubic yard.
M\Y 31. 1905


William Stevens Fielding: I understand that that contract was completed in the manner stated; that the work was extended at the rates I have mentioned, which are the equivalent of the contract price ; and that as respects any additional work, tenders have now been called for a further contract.
Sault Ste. Marie-harbour improvements, including dredging of approaches-balances due on contract work, &c., $25,000.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: What is this work ?


William Stevens Fielding: This work was done by contract by Mr. Joseph Battle, of Thorold. Ontario. The amount of the contract was $65,000, and there was extra work authorized to the amount of $1,200, with charges for superintendence and contingencies, bringing the whole amount up to $68,700, of which $43,659.22 has been paid, and the balance of $25,000 in round numbers is still to be paid.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Will the hon. gentleman state what the nature of the work was, what the extras were, and who was the per son employed to superintend the work ?


William Stevens Fielding: The officer who inspected the work was Mr. Boyd. He is not regularly in the employ of the government, but was employed for that purpose.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is the hon gentleman aware that Mr. Boyd is employed as wharfinger at Sault Ste. Marie at a regular salary?


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know what the custom is there, but usually wharfingers are not paid salaries, but are allowed a percentage of their receipts, not exceeding 25 per cent in the Marine Department, and they are not commonly regarded as salaried officials.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: With regard to the superintendent, the result would be that while that work was going on, Mr. Boyd would be sitting in his office, attending to his business as wharfinger, and occasionally inspecting this work. He would De getting the same fees as wharfinger whether he acted as superintendent or not. His time as wharfinger is supposed to be exclusively given to the government, while, as a matter of fact, his time would be divided between his duties as wharfinger and his duties as superintendent of this work. In short, he gets double pay for doing work that would require constant and exclusive attention.


William Stevens Fielding: I suppose that if a past-master getting a few dollars a year in a small country post office were employed under similar conditions, we would be told that he was paid two salaries. I think the allowance made to wharfingers, unless the business is very large, is not contemplated as calling for a man's whole time. It is a small percentage on the amount he collects.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: The hon. gentleman has not stated the nature of the work.


William Stevens Fielding: The stem of the old wharf, formerly called Plummer's wharf, was lengthened by adding 250 feet in length, 60 feet in width and from 25 to 31 feet in height, and a wing turned up stream 250 feet in length, 50 feet in width, and from 31 to 33 feet in height. The top stands 6| feet above low water.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is that all the work for which this appropriation is required ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: What is the dredging that is included ?


William Stevens Fielding: There is no dredging in this. The word * dredging ' is a part of the heading of the first appropriation, and they copied the same words.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I refer the hon. gentleman to page 5627 of ' Hansard ' where he will find a number of questions and answers concerning the government docks at Sault Ste. Marie. In question 12, I asked who was the wharfinger employed during the construction of the extension of the dock and at what rate was he paid, and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries replied that the wharfinger appointed by that department was retained in office, that his name is George A. Boyd, and that he was paid at the rate of $142 per month during the season of navigation out of the fees collected by him, and further that the wharfinger paid for all necessary assistance. Well, this extension work was done during the season of navigation. By question 10,
I asked under whose immediate local supervision was this extension work performed, and the minister replied that it was performed under the supervision of George A. Boyd, at $3 per day. Therefore this same man was getting $142 per month and $3 per day at the same time. What was the total period during which this man Boyd was paid for superintending that work ?


William Stevens Fielding: I cannot give the information. The usual practice is to pay these wharfingers by fees, and I was dealing with the usual practice, having no special knowledge of the amount of business done at that wharf.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: The Minister of Marine and Fisheries said he was not required to give his whole time to the duties of wharfinger.


William Stevens Fielding: That would depend on the amount of business. It seems to be very considerable, and his fees would amount to a considerable sum. The Public Works Department might not have any knowledge of the fact tnat he was acting as wharfinger. I presume it is the same man.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: It is said to be the same man.


William Stevens Fielding: Is it so stated in the answer to the question ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: No.


William Stevens Fielding: I presume the hon. gentleman knows that it is the same man when he says so ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I know it is the same and a very useful man in an election.


William Stevens Fielding: That is an additional virtue.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: No doubt that was the great factor in giving him this $3 per day extra. An election was imminent in that constituency. A great deal of money was spent and a great many votes created, and created in a manner -which will yet have to be brought to the attention of this House, and which forms one of the greatest election scandals ever perpetrated in the Dominion. Votes were created absolutely without law or reason or any reasonable excuse at all in that district of West Algoma. 543 votes were put upon the voters' list in a single day without notice to anybody, and this Mr. George A. Boyd, who was not required to give his whole time to his duties as wharfinger and got $3 per day besides as superintendent, was the agent who was exceedingly active on behalf of the Liberal candidate. No doubt this was his reward. I wonder shall he be dealt with in the same severe manner as the Postmaster General dealt with the postmaster at Kentvale. Men were brought in on trains to my knowledge in parties of from six to eight to vote for the Liberal candidate in the January election. This same gentleman was very active on behalf of this government in the Dominion election and on behalf of the Ontario government in the provincial election.


William Stevens Fielding: I suppose that since all these different things happened in that election, the hon. gentleman will use the machinery provided by parliament for investigating them ? I take it for granted he has appealed to the courts to have this thing straightened out ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I am glad the hon. gentleman brings that up. If he looks at the public accounts, he will see that it must have cost this country several hundreds of dollars to employ counsel to resist the demand for a writ of prohibition which I made at the moment this outrage was committed. If he will consult Judge Meredith's decision, delivered shortly before the election, he will see that the judge held that the extraordinary Order in Council was not to be followed, by which this government proposed to make voters' lists in violation of every statute in Ontario. That is what was done and that is on record, and that record will be laid before this House. It was fortunately not necessary to go into the election court, but it may be necessary to ask parliament to refer the matter to the Privileges and Elections Committee. 543 names were created in that district illegally, without any excuse, with


William Stevens Fielding: 
Archibald Campbell: I would ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyce) if the attention of the Attorney General of Ontario has been called to these outrages, and if so, what that officer is doing ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I do not know whether the hon. gentleman (Mr. Campbell) was in the House a little while ago or not. But I may tell him that the attention of the courts have been called to the matter. And I may tell him that three counsel were employed and paid by this government, and 1 suppose that a reasonable amount will appear in the public accounts for their services. X would remind the Minister of Finance of that, there is very interesting reading in the judgment. And I would commend that judgment also to the hon. member for Centre York (Mr. Campbell) together with the facts on which it proceeded. I was struck with the virtue shown by the hon. gentleman in commenting on certain matters before we rose at six o'clock. If he will study the facts in connection for the application for prohibition in respect to the West Algoma voters' lists during October last, he will find interesting reading and may have reason to change the view as to the absence of the virtue of every action of this government.


Archibald Campbell: I would rather have the evidence than your version of it.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: May I ask the minister if there is any dredging in connection with this ?


William Stevens Fielding: The item is under a general head which includes dredging, this particular work does not .include dredging.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: There is no dredging of the St. Marie river in this item ?


William Stevens Fielding: No.
Owen Sound harbour-dredging, &e., $6,000.


William Stevens Fielding: The appropriation for that was $28,000 and we are asking for $6,000 more. This is for dredging performed by the dredge * Frank ' of Mr. A. F. Bowman.
IMr. TAYLOR. Bowman is a lucky man.


William Stevens Fielding: I think Ontario is lucky to have a Bowman and others to do the work. I would be glad to have such men in the maritime provinces to do work at fair prices.


George Taylor: Was this by contract or by the day ?


William Stevens Fielding: By contract at 13J cents per cubic yard.


Richard Blain: When the hon. minister is bringing down the information in connection with the Sault dredging, will he please bring down the contract between Joseph Battle and the government for dredging at the Sault ?


William Stevens Fielding: I am informed that Mr. Battle did not do dredging there.


Richard Blain: When the item was up last year of the Sault St. Marie harbour improvements including dredging of approaches $30,000, Mr. Hyman said :	' This work is under contract. The contractor is Joseph Battle, of Thorold, and the estimated cost $71,500.' Would the minister lay on the table the contract so that we may examine it ?


William Stevens Fielding: A copy of the contract with Mr. Battle will be brought down. But the old headline for this item has been carried on, and it included dredging. But for this part of the work there was no dredging.
Little Current-improvement of northern steamboat channel in Georgian Bay, $16,000.


William Stevens Fielding: We had an appropriation at first of $25,000 for this work.


George Taylor: How was this estimate made up ?


William Stevens Fielding: This is a work that has cost a considerable amount of money and we shall have an appropriation for it in the coming estimates.


George Taylor: Is it under con'ract ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, with Mr. Boone, at $2.60 per cubic yard of rock and $1.40 per cubic yard of hard-pan.
River Otonabee-dredging at Peterborough,


George Taylor: Is this in connection with the canal ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, it - is for work at Peterborough. This is to pay the Department of Railways and Canals for the use of their dredge which was employed for this purpose.
Haileybury wharf-Lake Temiskaming, $3,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This is to complete the wharf at Haileybury. The engineer informs me that the wharf was built, but afterwards sank and there had to be a further expenditure of money.


George Taylor: Was it done by contract ?


William Stevens Fielding: No, by day labour.


George Taylor: In what district is this work ?


William Stevens Fielding: In the district of Nipis-sing.


George Taylor: There was an election there, too ?


William Stevens Fielding: There were elections everywhere, the hon. gentleman will remember. But public works must be constructed-the King's government most go on.


George Taylor: Did it cost as much to complete the wharf after it had sunk as to build it in the first place ?


William Stevens Fielding: I understand that the wharf cost $13,000 and that extra expenditure was $3,000.
Honora wharf-revote of lapsed amount $800.


George Taylor: Where is this 1


William Stevens Fielding: This is in Algoma. The appropriation was $8,000 and this supplementary estimate of $800 is to complete the work.


George Taylor: Why build wharfs up there ?


William Stevens Fielding: Because we wish to be fair to all parts of the country.


George Taylor: I have urged upon the government for many years to be fair to the district in the St. Lawrence, the township of Howe island which is thickly settled with farmers, principally lower Canadians who settled there many years ago. The government had never spent a dollar to build wharfs for them, nor will it give them a ferry or build them a bridge. Yet, the government can go up to Lake Temiskaming and build wharfs there.


William Stevens Fielding: Ferries and bridges would rightly come within our jurisdiction but wharfs are our legitimate business.


George Taylor: There are about a dozen wharfs around this Howe island but all built by the people. At my urgent request the government has promised again and again to look into the building of a wharf there, but it has not been done. The Dominion government control the river there, but Mr. TAYLOR.
they will not build a bridge to connect the island with the mainland.


William Stevens Fielding: That is a provincial work.


George Taylor: No, it is a Dominion work. The Dominion controls the navigation.


William Stevens Fielding: A bridge within the limits of a province, is ordinarily considered a provincial work. An inter-provincial bridge sometimes has claims upon the Dominion, but an ordinary highway bridge entirely within the province would be considered a local -work. Of course, it is not always easy to lay down the line between local and Dominion authority, but I think the definition I give, so far as it goes, is correct.
Georgian bay and Pointe au Baril route-improvement of the Devil's Elbow channel between Parry Sound and Kilarney $750.


Angus Claude Macdonell: This is the last item of the Ontario group. I desire to call the attention of the committee to the fact that there is nothing in these supplementary estimates for Toronto harbour. This is a matter which has been again and again brought up in this House, by the late Mr. Clarke and also by the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) and the hon. member for East Toronto (Mr. Kemp). The necessity for the work is beyond question. The government engineers have, from time to time so certified. The particular work to which I refer is the straightening of the River Don and the dredging of the harbour. When the main estimates were under consideration the attention of the minister was called to this work and he promised to take the matter into consideration. Since that time a deputation consisting of the mayor and others from the city of Toronto have waited upon the Minister of Public Works and made out what appears to be a very good case for an appropriation for this work. The minister again on that occasion promised to consider it, and the deputation were led to believe that something would be done, or at least considered. Now the supplementary estimates are completed and nothing appears. From year to year, in the past, amounts have appeared in the estimates for this work, but the work has never been done and the money has never been expended. I desire to warn the government now that Toronto harbour is a government work the same as Quebec, Halifax or any other, and the harbour is rapidly filling up for want of dredging. Material is carried down in large quantities by the River Don and deposited in the harbour. It is estimated by the government's own engineer that enough silt sufficient to cover five acres to the depth of 10 feet is deposited in the harbour every year by the action of the River Don. The result is that the eastern part of the harbour is no longer a harbour-it has ceased to be one. The slips in the eastern part of the harbour are
6S89

kept open, where they are kept open at all, by dredging carried on by the city council and the harbour commissioners of Toronto. The government has spent no money on that work. The work will have to be undertaken some day and it will cost a great deal of money because of the delay which has taken place. I had hoped that these supplementary estimates would contain some appropriation for that work. However, if the supplementary estimates are not all down I hope the government will consider the matter and the Minister of Public Works will give it the consideration he promised the deputation should be given.


William Stevens Fielding: The estimates we have under consideration, I would remind my hon. friend, are only for the fiscal year which has now nearly expired-they are simply to close the transactions of the year. The appropriations for the coming year do not appear in these estimates. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. A. C. Macdonell) will turn to the main estimates for the fiscal year beginning 1st .Tuly next, he, will see considerable appropriations for Toronto harbour. On page 34 of the main estimates for the coming year is one appropriation for Toronto harbour, eastern entrance, $28,000, and one for the extension of the Island breakwater $60,000. I do not know whether these cover what my hon. friend has in mind, but they are certainly two estimates for Toronto harbour.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I am aware of the fact referred to Jjy the minister. But these works are entirely different from the one to which I refer. The work I refer to is the straightening of the River Don and the dredging of the main harbour. Now that the hon. minister has mentioned those works I think it only right to say that although they were provided for in the original estimates the contract is not yet let. I believe that on no less than two occasions tenders have been called for, once during the latter part of November last and once in the early part of January. Tenders were called for in the usual way and submitted to the de-, partment, but for some reason that is yet unexplained the contract was not let, the tenders were returned to the tenderers and in so far as I am aware these works have not been undertaken to this day.
Roads and bridges-Ottawa city bridges over the river Ottawa, the slides and the Rideau canal and approaches thereto, ordinary repairs and maintenance, $2,500.


George Taylor: Why does not the province of Ontario look after these bridges ?


William Stevens Fielding: These are over Dominion works, over our own works. If we cut a canal or build a railway, or do anything which interferes with the highway, we have to build a bridge across it.


George Taylor: These bridges are not over the Rideau canal, but over the Ottawa river.


William Stevens Fielding: And over slides and booms. These are Dominion works. We have interfered with the natural highway.


George Taylor: I understand this vote to be divided between slides and booms, the Rideau canal and bridges over the river Ottawa. I believe the government have built bridges across the Ottawa river independently of the Rideau canal. Why did not they ask the province of Ontario to do that ?


William Stevens Fielding: The Ottawa river is the dividing line between two great provinces, and the bridge there is an interprovincial bridge. This is somewhat different front a bridge entirely within the province.
Dredging-Dredge vessel repairs, $25,000.


George Taylor: What is this for ?


William Stevens Fielding: This is for general repairs to dredges all over the Dominion.


George Taylor: How much was taken for this last year ?


William Stevens Fielding: 


George Taylor: Why an increased expenditure of $25,000 ?


William Stevens Fielding: The diedges are getting older and the repair work is naturally more expensive than it was in their earlier record.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How many dredges has the government, and where are they placed ?


George Taylor: This simply applies to dredges of the Department of Public Works and not to those of the Department of Railways and Canals or the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


William Stevens Fielding: I am told that there are fifteen dredges, besides the tugs and scoiws connected therewith. All these are entirely within the Department of Public Works.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The dredges that are used in the maritime provinces and the St. Lawrence all belong to the Department of Public Works ?


William Stevens Fielding: The ship channel dredges are now attached to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, but all the maritime province dredges are included in this statement.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How many dredges are . there in the maritime provinces ?
, Mr. FIELDING. Seven.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Could the hon. minister say where they are located ?


William Stevens Fielding: The ' Canada ' is at Lockport, the ' St. Lawrence ' in the Resti-gouche river, or is about to be employed there, the ' Cape Breton ' is at Sydney, the ' George Mackenzie ' is at Shippegan, the ' Prince Edward Island ' at Charlottetown,



the ' New Dominion ' at St. John, and the ' New Brunswick ' on the St. John river.
New dredge for Prince Edward Island, $15.-
000.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: Will the hon. minister explain this ?


William Stevens Fielding: This is to provide a new dredge for Prince Edward Island, which is under construction at Toronto. The contract for the dredge, including dredge, scows, &c., is $65,000. There was an appropriation of $25,000 for the current year : we are asking now $15,000, which will he $40,000, and there are $25,000 in the main estimates for the coming year, which will cover the cost of this new dredge.
'Mr. LEFURGEY. You say she is to cost $65,000 ? Is she being built by contract ?


William Stevens Fielding: She is being built at the Bertram Engine Works in Toronto.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: When is she to be finished ?


William Stevens Fielding: She is expected to be finished this summer.
iMir. LEFURGEY. When will Che be available for work ?


William Stevens Fielding: She will be available for work during the latter part of this season.
New dredging plant, maritime provinces, $160,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I would like to ask the hon. minister if this item refers to the completion of the new dredge ' W. S. Fielding


William Stevens Fielding: Part of this applies to the dredge which bears that name, a name which was placed on that dredge by the late Minister of Public Works (Mr. Tarte).


An hon. MEMBER.: Is it out of repair ?


William Stevens Fielding: No ; she is an entirely new dredge. She has not yet gone to work. She is a pretty expensive article, and I am sorry that I have such an expensive article bearing my name, but they say she is to do very good work. This includes the amount required for finishing that dredge and also for another dredge that is to be called the ' King Edward,' which is under construction at the Poison Iron Works at Toronto.


John Waterhouse Daniel: When will the ' W. S. Fielding ' be finished ?


William Stevens Fielding: She is approaching completion now, and will likely be finished in a short time.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Where is she being built ?


William Stevens Fielding: At the government shipyards, Sorel.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Where will the ' W. S. Fielding ' be placed at work ?


William Stevens Fielding: 


William Stevens Fielding: That is a matter which is still not decided. I do not know whether it is the dredge or the name but there are numerous applicants for her.


John Waterhouse Daniel: When the construction of this dredge was being provided for, I believe the Minister of Public Works stated that she would be able to do some work at St. John harbour. It requires a special kind of dredge to do the work there and the then Minister of Public Works stated that this dredge would be suitable for that work and that she would be sent to St. John harbour when completed. Is that still the intention of the department ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is not the intention to regard this dredge as being built for any particular place ; it is built for service in the maritime provinces generally and it certainly would be capable of doing the work at St. John. I understand, however, that other provision is being made for certain dredging at St. John harbour, which will not require the services of this dredge.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I am aware of that. Can the minister say what action has been already taken with regard to that other dredge to which he refers ?


William Stevens Fielding: There have been some negotiations which I think are intended to make provision for the work which the hon. gentleman and I have in mind. How ever, it has not yet been finally arranged, although it is likely to be arranged very shortly.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Does the minister think it will be arranged early enough to have the work done this season.


William Stevens Fielding: No. The quantity of dredging there is very considerable and I do not imagine it will all be completed this season. I would not like to be too definite, because it is a matter which has engaged the attention of the Minister of Public Works and except in a general way I am not familiar with it.


Angus Claude Macdonell: WThat is the cost of the 'King Edward' that is being built by the Poisons.


William Stevens Fielding: According to the information furnished me it will cost $220,000.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Was the contract let by tender ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Was the construction of the dredge which is being built by the Bertram Company let by tender ?
'Mr. FIELDING. Yes.


Angus Claude Macdonell: How many tenders were put in for these two dredges, and by whom ?


William Stevens Fielding: The deputy informs me that speaking from memory he thinks three tenders -were put in, all from Toronto firms. There are only a few people in Canada who can do work of that character.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I am aware of that.


Mr. WIDMOT.: Is it the intention of the government to do any dredging in the St. John river this year ?


William Stevens Fielding: There is a dredge engaged in the St. John river every year and I think she will he continued this year.


Robert Duncan Wilmot: I directed the attention of the Minister of Public Works to some dredging which is necessary to do on the Washdemoali river, one of the tributaries of the St. John. It is a very important and necessary work and would not be very costly.


William Stevens Fielding: Was there not some dredging done there last year ?


Robert Duncan Wilmot: Yes, there was some dredging done in front of the wharf and it has been found very useful. The work I speak of is required in the channel of the river, and it is situated at a point near where there are quite a number of people living. The vessels that ply along the coast have too large a draught to be able to navigate there under present conditions without unloading part of their cargo, which of course, causes great inconvenience as well as loss of money. I have already drawn the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the matter and he informed me that he would direct his engineer to make a report. I ask now if the engineer has acted on the minister's instructions ?


William Stevens Fielding: I will see that a note is taken of the request made by my hon. friend (Mr. Wilmot) and I will draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works to it. I am not able to give any information as to that point at present.


Robert Duncan Wilmot: I wish also to draw the attention of the government to the fact that there are several points on the main river St. John which ought to be attended to. I have complained to this government and also to the Conservative government, that I never saw a Minister of the Public Works or any of the chiefs of the department visit the St. John river which is one of the chief rivers in the Dominion. The ,ministers seem to depend altogether on the opinion of the local officers, and I would earnestly urge on the government and on the Public Works Department that they should pay more attention to that important river.
Telegraph lines, Qu'Apelie, Edmonton and Moosejaw, (Wood Mountain section), $4,500.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE.: Does the government own that telegraph line ?
219}


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


William James Roche: How many miles of telegraph lines have we there ?


William Stevens Fielding: The line from Qu'Ap-pelle to Edmonton, 625 miles, and the Wood Mountain section, 90} miles.


William James Roche: Is that the total number of miles owned by the government in the Territories ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are one or two small loop lines in addition to that.


William James Roche: Is that the only portion of Canada the government own telegraph lines in ?


William Stevens Fielding: No ; we have telegraph lines over the coast of the maritime provinces, and also in the Yukon.
Deep Waterways Commission, $7,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This is to meet the expenses of what is called the International Waterways Commission.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What was the amount first voted ?	'


William Stevens Fielding: There has been no appropriation hitherto for it. It is a work that has been undertaken since the last session of parliament, and the commission has been engaged for some time past.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who are the men who
compose the commisison ?


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. King, the chief astronomer, Mr. J. B. Maybee, K.C., Mr. Louis Coste, C.E., and Mr. Thomas CotS, secretary.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where are they now ?


William Stevens Fielding: They have been in the United States, but they have returned to Ottawa now.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What were they there for ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is a joint commission for the United States and Canada, with reference to all the adjacent waters of the two countries.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Can the minister state whether the St. John river, the boundary bne between New Brunswick and Maine, is to be included in the investigation of this commission 1


William Stevens Fielding: There has been some question as to whether the St. John river would come within the scope of this commission, and the matter is now engaging attention, but no conclusion has been reached.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is there a report ?


William Stevens Fielding: Not yet. They have not been long enough employed for that.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Will there be a report?


William Stevens Fielding: In due course there will be.


George Taylor: Parliament was not consulted about this.


William Stevens Fielding: Matters arise occasionally on which it is necessary to take action without waiting to consult parliament.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Did this arise with the American government ?


William Stevens Fielding: I think the commission was at the instance of the American government ?
Chief engineers' office-salaries ol engineers, draughtsman, clerks and messengers, $11,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What Is this for ?


William Stevens Fielding: The business of the country is increasing, and a larger staff is required.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What was the amount voted last year for that branch ?


William Stevens Fielding: 


George Taylor: We were passing estimates in July or August last year, and the government must have known how much it would take to run that staff for the balance of the year.


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend must remember that while parliament did not prorogue until August, ihe estimates were prepared long before that.


George Taylor: But an engineer, if he is competent should be able to estimate within a few dollars what it would cost to run his department for the year.


William Stevens Fielding: In proportion to the total expenditure the excess is not very large.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When the minister of a department goes before Council and asks for money, does not the Minister of Finance ask questions to find out whether the expenditure is necessary or not ?


William Stevens Fielding: Oh, yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: More than that, the Minister of Finance used to cut out some expenditures and act as if he. had charge of the treasury of the country. There is no doubt that we are voting very large amounts of money that should have been thought of when the main estimates were made up. There seems to be a lack of business management on the part of the government.


William Stevens Fielding: I am not sure that some of these votes are not due to the fact that the Minister of Finance is apt to be stingy and to try to cut down some of the estimates ; for the minister affected comes Mr. FIELDING.
back at the end of the year and says, you would not give it to me at the beginning of the year, and I must have it now.


Richard Blain: What are the rates on these lines ?


William Stevens Fielding: There is a regular rate from Ottawa by the Canadian Pacific Railway to Ashcroft, and from Ashcroft to Dawson City, the rate is $3 for ten words. It was higher and has been reduced.


Richard Blain: What are the rates on the lines in the Northwest Territories ?


William Stevens Fielding: Over the Canadian Pacific Railway to points in the Territories, 50 cents for ten words. On messages from here we have to pay the Canadian Pacific Railway rates from Qu'Appelle.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is that the line made by Mr. Charleson ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes ; the Yukon line.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How much did it cost altogether ?


William Stevens Fielding: About $700,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does it pay expenses ?


William Stevens Fielding: No ; the deficit is about $50,000 a year.


George Taylor: This $43,000 is all for working expenses ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is for maintenance, including repairs and operating.


George Taylor: How much is taken in the main estimates ?


William Stevens Fielding: $183,000. We are asking $43,000 more.
Mr. TAYLOR, Who does the disbursing or the keeping of the accounts of this Yukon line ? Is it Mr. Charleson ?


William Stevens Fielding: No ; he was employed on the construction. This comes under the general supervision of the officer in charge of our telegraph service at Ottawa, Mr. Keeley.


George Taylor: How comes it that he asked for $183,000 last year and now wants $41,000 more ?


William Stevens Fielding: The old arrears on maintenance have something to do with this.


William James Roche: What do the repairs cost each year ?


William Stevens Fielding: I have not that information just now, but will get it later on. The repairs are done by our own officials, and are included in the general charge of maintenance.


William James Roche: This looks a very large item for a newly constructed line.


William Stevens Fielding: It has been running six years.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is not that the line which a company offered to build for nothing and to carry besides government messages free ? Was not that shown by the correspondence between 'Mr. Blair and some English company when it was taken out of his hands by Mr. Tarte and built at the expense of the government ? Now, it has cost over $700,000, and there is a deficit on it every year of $50,000.	-	.


William Stevens Fielding: It would not follow that the company which made the proposal would have been able to do the good things they promised. Companies are usually generous in their offers: Mr. Tarte's view was that the construction of this line was of great importance to Canada, and that we could not afford to let it go into the hands of a company, which might not maintain it efficiently.
To pay J. C. TachS for special services as district superintendent of telegraphs at Chicoutimi from January 1 to June 30, 1905, $150.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is his salary ?


William Stevens Fielding: His regular salary is $1,750, and he is allowed these $300 extra for this service, increasing his salary to $2,050. He could not get an increase according to his rank without a special vote, and that is why it is done in this way.
Franchise Act-to complete cost of voters' lists for election of 1904, $10,000 ; new edition of Electoral Atlas, $3,500 ;	$13,500.


William Stevens Fielding: When this item was up before I was asked one or two questions with regard to the electoral atlas that is being printed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Will that be distributed to members before the end of the election ?


William Stevens Fielding: The King's Printer says he is not quite sure that it will be completed before the end of the session but it is distributed to the members. I was asked whether the lists under the Franchise Act vs'ere printed every year. It is not the practice to print these every year although the Act may seem to contemplate that, but the custom is to print them at any time when there is an expectation of an election.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: A few days ago the Printing Committee had the pleasure of visiting the Printing Bureau and through the courtesy of Dr. Dawson and his assistants we were shown everything that could be seen there. I wish to call the attention of the minister to the inadequacy of the space in that building. It is entirely too small for the work done there and I think the public service would have better results if the establishment was enlarged so that all the printing for the public service could be done there. Take the printing of the lists. That is an immense work and that
building I think should be at least double the size it is to-day. As we are spending a lot of money-my hon. friend speaks of the growing time

I think money voted for that purpose would be usefully spent and although the building was enlarged last year the enlargement is hardly noticeable, it is so small. The government have a good deal of ground there and I think it would be good policy to enlarge the place as soon as possible. If my hon. friend asks the opinion of Dr. Dawson he will be convinced that the sooner that is done the better.
Mr. [DOT] W. J. ROCHE. I presume when the lists are sent down from the various provinces, they come direct to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and he sends them to the King's Printer to have them printed.
I	do not suppose that after they are printed from the original copy they come under the supervision of the King's Printer himself. There are certain proof-readers no doubt, but what I wish to draw to the attention of the Finance Minister is in connection with the lists for Manitoba for the last election. There were a great many typographical errors; in fact so many that there was a suspicion in the minds of many of my own friends that they were not at all accidental. Of course I am not blaming the King's Printer for this, but some of my supporters desired me to bring it up in the House, because they thought some person, possibly in the printing office, must have been tampering with them and that an arrangement existed. For instance in the particular district where I reside, there was a list of 11 names shown to me. All these
II	names were typographical errors ; instead of being put down as residing in 15-16, they were put in 16-17. This gave a good excuse to the officers who prepared the list for scoring these men off their own township and many of them had to travel many miles from their own township although their own polls were within a mile or two of their homes and when they got to these other polls perhaps ten or fifteen miles away, they found their names had not been transferred. Out of these 11 names 10 were Conservative, and the only one that was a Liberal was not scored off. I thought I would bring this up because really there were a great many errors of this character in connection .with the printing of the municipal list in our province.


William Stevens Fielding: These errors are most annoying and it is very difficult to give any explanation of such a statement as the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. W. J. Roche) has mentioned. But I am assured by the King's Printer it is hardly possible that there should be any intention of any wrong-doing in the matter. The lists are

read very carefully, or should be, by capable proof-readers, by reliable men who have been in the service of the department a great many years, and the King's Printer feels the utmost confidence in their good intentions. If the error has occurred some one is to blame.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Their eyesight is failing.


William Stevens Fielding: They are not as young as they used to be, but it is hardly possible they could have any conception of who the people up there were.


William James Roche: Unless there was some one to post them.


William Stevens Fielding: That is still more difficult of conception.	'


William James Roche: It is quite possible.


William Stevens Fielding: If any one was unfair enough to do it they would hardly go to the Printing Bureau and no one there would permit such a thing to be done. It is a blunder and it is unfortunate it has happened, but it is hardly possible it could be done by design. It is carelessness, but I am sure it is an accident.


William James Roche: It is strange It
should be confined to the one party.


William Stevens Fielding: The King's Printer has never had it brought to his notice before and has had no opportunity of investigating it.


Richard Blain: On the question of expenditure for printing voters' lists it steems to me that	an arrangement
could be entered into between the Dominion government and the local governments that would avoid the expenditure of such a large amount of money for printing Dominion lists. The minister will keep in mind the fact that the list used, in Ontario for example, for the local is the same as for the Dominion. These lists are printed every year by the mun'clpal'.t'es and are used for the municipal elections and used as well for the provincial election when it is held every four years. I cannot understand why an agreement should not be entered into between the government of Canada and the local governments so that the list as printed by the municipalities, which is after all the list used in the election, should not be used without being sent to Ottawa to be printed at all. We have these lists printed every year and it seems to me a useless expenditure of money that the very same names should be transmitted to Ottawa, printed in new form and sent back to the different constituencies when they are already in printed form.


William Stevens Fielding: The suggestion is worthy of consideration. I am inclined to Mr. FIELDING.
think the provincial or municipal printing of lists is not so general as my hon. friend thinks. He is particularly speaking no doubt from his own observation in Ontario. I think I am correct in stating that in some province the municipalities do not print their lists. I know I have seen in rural districts, written lists posted up and I dare say the municipalities jirould_not care to incur the expense of printing. If it would be possible to bring about harmonious action between the Dominion, provincial and municipal authorities there might be much convenience. I am not advised as to whether it is possible to arrange this.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: In Quebec the lists are not printed, but I do not see if they are printed in Ontario that there is any use in doing it a second time. The lists might be printed in provinces or municipalities where they are not printed. The printing of lists in Ontario, where there are 90 counties, is a useless expense.


William James Roche: There is one feature connected with the printing of the lists to which I would call attention, that is the form in which the lists are got up. Would it not be possible to have them made up in a form more convenient for the use of candidates and others ? Of course it may be more convenient for the Printing Bureau to get them out in long sheets, but they are rather inconvenient for handling.


William Stevens Fielding: The printing in blank form would be convenient for the candidates and the public certainly. But it would involve more cost and more time in the printing.


William James Roche: Were many of the lists preparatory to the last Dominion elections printed outside ?


William Stevens Fielding: About forty of them. The details are given in the report of the King's printer.


William James Roche: Does the minister know what provinces they represented ?


William Stevens Fielding: They were mainly of Ontario and Quebec constituencies.


William James Roche: Were they printed in one particular newspaper office V


William Stevens Fielding: They were scattered among a number of offices. -


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Liberal, I suppose ?


William Stevens Fielding: No doubt. The others would not do work for this wicked government.
Public Works-chargeable to capital-harbours and rivers-Ontario-Port Arthur and Fort Wlllian-harbour and river improvements, $26,000.


George Taylor: This item was allowed to stand because an hon. gentleman who

wished to discuss it was not present. He is not present this evening, but, with the same understanding as in Dunnville matter, we will allow the item to pass-that is that on some Ontario item in the main estimates the discussion may take place.


William Stevens Fielding: That will be quite satisfactory.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions- further amount required for steam communication between St. John, Halifax and Yarmouth, $521.80.	.


William Stevens Fielding: This is a balance due on a contract for steamer service. Some difference arose as to whether the service had been satisfactorily performed and the minister delayed payment. But this does not change the amount of the contract.
Miscellaneous-miscellaneous	printing-further amount required, $12,000.


William Stevens Fielding: The main appropriation was $40,000. This item to some extent represents the arrears-that is they have had to pay at the beginning of the year some portion of the previous year's outlay. Then Hie departmental reports are increasing in bulk, and besides the cost of printing generally is increasing. The wages were increased during the last fiscal year.
Inspection of staples-further amount required on account of wages and contingencies, $7,500.


William Stevens Fielding: The present vote $60,000 will be sufficient to meet the expenditure for the current fiscal year. It is difficult to estimate what the cost of grain inspection will be. Nearly the whole amount is repaid in fees.


Mr. LAKE.: Have any additional assistant warehouse commissioners been appointed or are they to be appointed ?


William Stevens Fielding: I cannot give that information to-night. But I would be glad if the hon. gentleman would renew his question, and to have the Minister of Trade and Commerce furnish a written reply.
Prince Edward Island Railway-Working expenses, $60,000.
Railways and Canals-chargeable to collection of revenue-railways-'Intercolonial Railway working expenses, $2,000,000.


George Taylor: I will have to ask the minister to allow this item to stand as the ex-Miuister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Haggart) is not present. This is a large Item.


William Stevens Fielding: I admit that the amount is large. It represents the working expenses which increase of course, with the volume of business. The receipts no not always increase proportionately, I am sorry to say-But the business is growing and the increased cost of operation must be provided for. This amount will be necessary to pay
the working expenses for the current year. If my hon. friend wishes the item to stand,
I am quite willing.
Unprovided items, 1903-4-To cover unprovided items, 1903-4, as per Auditor General's Report, page C-4, $280,551.40.


William Stevens Fielding: This is not an appropriation of money, tout a mere formal vote which the Auditor General likes to have at the close of the year'to wind up the accounts. It arises in this way : Appropriations are made to the department for the different 'branches of its business. It sometimes happens that the minister, the accountants and the Auditojr General do not exactly agree as to the particular manner in which charges should he made. For instance, the minister has an expenditure charged in one way ; the Auditor General makes up his mind that he will charge it against another. The result is that one particular branch is exceeded while in the other there is an excess. This is not an authority for the payment of a dollar, but the Auditor General has asked that a formal appropriation he made in this way to wind up the accounts.
I understand that, with the exception of the two railroad items, we have disposed of the supplementary estimates for the fiscal year ending June 30 next. I desire to express my appreciation of the assistance I have received from my hon. friends on the other side in passing these items.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: We understand that we* can discuss some of these matters when we go into the main estimates later.


William Stevens Fielding: Certainly ; any of them.
Some resolutions reported.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
Robert Laird Borden: What business are we to take up on Monday ?


William Stevens Fielding: We have happily disposed in Committee of Supply of all the items in the supplementary estimates for the current year, save two, which have been held over and which we would like the House to consider again in committee on Monday. After that we will endeavour to have concurrence and facilitate the passing of a Supply Bill as rapidly as possible. 1 hat being disposed of, we will proceed with the main estimates. I am not quite clear as to which particular department we will take up, but we will be governed by anything that may arise, and if there be any objection to that, we will endeavour to meet the views of hon. gentlemen opposite.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What about the Autonomy Bill ?


William Stevens Fielding: That is arranged.


Mr. K. BORDEN.: I suppose the government has made arrangements to have the Supply Bill assented to properly.


William Stevens Fielding: We will have to consider that carefully. The Senate is to meet on the 6th, and as soon as we get through here I hope to find that all the necessary facilities are provided.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.	N
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 5, 1905.