1905-02-02

PRIVATE BILLS-EXTENSION OF TIME.

Mr. GEO. D. GRANT moved :: That in accord with the recommendation contained in the report of the Select Committee on Standing Orders, the time for receiving petitions for Private Bills and also the time for presenting Private Bills be extended to Thursday, February 23rd, and Thursday, March 9th, respectively.	-


Mr. T. S. SPROULE.: So as to elicit an expression of opinion from the right hon. the First Minister, I would point out that the rule providing that petitions for Private Bills shall be presented within a certain time was intended to facilitate the work of the session. If that time be too short, we should amend the rule and give a longer time, but the judgment of the House was that the time limit provided was sufficient. This rule, however, seems to be more honoured in the breach than in the observance, and last session I drew attention to that fact on several occasions. I pointed out that we might as well have no rule as one which we did not follow, and I think the House should either decide to amend the rule or insist on its being observed.
lit. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister). It is quite true that my hon. friend from Grey has more than once called the attention of the House, and my own in particular, to the fact that the rule in question has been systematically violated. But I do not think that my hon. friend himself ever objected to this first request, which is invariably made, to have the rule extended. Since I have been in parliament it has been the constant practice to allow one extension at least ; but of late years this permission has been extended unduly, and last session we had the Committee on Standing Orders reporting in favour of an extension of time, not only once, but three or four times. But according to practice, this first extension is granted at once.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not object to this one.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: The Conlmit-tee on Standing Orders should take notice, however, that the rule will not be extended any further. Of course, there may be exceptions, but if so, each application should stand on its own merits, and only be granted on special grounds. My hon. friend from Grey suggests that the rule should be amended. Perhaps we may have to revise, not only this, but several rules. For instance, we have a standing rule, which is never observed, fixing the recess for dinner from six to seven thirty p.m. By tacit consent, however, we have always extended that recess till eight o'clock. In the present instance, I am glad to see that my hon. friend from Grey agrees with me that there can be no objection to granting this extension, but that henceforth we should refuse all such applications.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: I cannot quite agree with what has been said by either of the hon. gentlemen. Parliament is here to serve the people, and the people should have all reasonable accommodation in getting the legislation they desire. We are not here to tell the public, you must do this at such a time or you cannot have what you want ; but we ought to afford every reasonable facility to the public for getting the legislation they desire. There may be some very large interests desirous of obtaining legislation ; they may not be able to give the necessary notice, and I think we would be meeting the public convenience by receiving the Bills. I agree with the opinion that an explanation ought to be given, but I still think that it is a good doctrine that we ought to try and accommodate the public in so far as we can in giving them the legislation they may require ; we ought to accommodate them at least to that extent.


Right Hon.   S@: Certainly we ought to try and accommodate the public, but according to the British constitution, and i think also according to common sense, the public is better accommodated when there are rules surrounding that accommodation and which the public need to understand. But my hon. friend is a reformer, and perhaps he wants to accommodate the public without any rules at all. Perhaps he is in favour of some of those corporations who are generally suitors for private legislation.


William Findlay Maclean: The right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) mistakes my point. The sessions are increasing in length, they are now four or five months long, and sometimes six months. There is no reason why these rules should not be liberalized-but, of course, the right hon. gentleman is always in favour of restriction.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: The reason of the committee asking for this is this. The sec-ietary of the committee said that the Senate 15
had extended the time to February 23 to receive Petitions and one week longer to receive Bills and if we did not extend the time, all the petitions would go to the Standing Orders Committee of the Senate and none of them to the Commons committee, that is the reason why the committee unanimously recommended this to the House.


Hon. GEO. E. FOSTER.: So much for the discussion on the present subject. But there was one remark dropped by my right hon. friend to which I wish to refer. He intimates that by common consent it has come to be the practice in this House not to assemble after recess until eight o'clock in the evening. If that is so, I am sorry that it is so. I think we lose half an hour of very valuable time. For my part I would much rather meet here at half past seven, which is according to the rules, and leave half an hour earlier, if either end is to be sacrificed. Last night we came here when very important estimates were up ; there was one minister ready to take his place and go on with his estimates. After a while another minister straggled in ; but for quite a while there was scarcely any gentlemen on the other side at all. I am sorry to say that our own side was sparse as well. But the government side is the side that ought to set a good example. I do not think it speaks well to the country when the important business of criticising and passing the estimates for the expenditure come up, that we should not on both sides show our own interest in the disposal of public business by being present. We were here last night, and it was a quarter past eight, or nearly so, before we got to work.


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Oh, no.


George Eulas Foster: It was after eight, and it seems to me we ought to get to work at half past seven. There is quite enough time [DOT] from six o'clock to half past seven to eat what should be ate at a meal for an ordinary man.



CRIMINAL CODE-AMENDMENT.

Mr.  D. W.@: BOLE (Winnipeg) moved to introduce a Bill (No. 23) to amend the provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada, 1902, with respect to common bawdy houses.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Explain.


Mr. BOLE.: My reason for introducing this Bill is owing to the fact that a decision of the courts of Manitoba holds that disorderly houses kept by one woman are not liable under the provisions of the Act. The amendment is intended to make houses of this character kept by one woman or more amenable to law and order. The necessity of this amendment is demonstrated in the city of Winnipeg, which I have the honour to represent. In that city disreputable houses conducted by one woman have been established oh some of our best streets, and the



good citizens have in some cases found it necessary to take the law in their own hands, by smashing windows and doors in their effort to suppress such nuisances.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


Mr. URIAH WILSON asked :: 1.	What was the object of the visit to Canada in the month of October last of Mr. W. T. R. Preston, emigration commissioner in Great Britain ?
2.	Was Mr. Preston sent for by tire government, or any member thereof, or did he come on his own initiative ?
3.	Is it true that there has been any friction between officials in the High Commissioner's office in London and Mr. Preston ?
4.	Have any complaints been made to the government, or any member thereof, or to any of the deputy ministers at Ottawa, or officials of the Department of the Interior, that Mr. Preston has been unduly interfering in the work of the High Commissioner's office.
5.	Has Mr. Preston any jurisdiction over any of the staff in the High Commissioner's office, or do his duties confine him solely to immigration work ?


Right Hon.   S@: Mr. W. T. R. Preston did not visit Canada in the month of October last, but in the month of November. He arrived here about November 17, and came by permission of the Minister of the Interior (Hon. C. Sifton) in order to discuss with him private matters connected with the 'Department of Immigration. There has been no friction, so far as the government is informed, between the officers of the High Commissioner's office and Mr. Preston, and no complaints have been made to that effect to any member of the government, so far as I know, nor to any other minister. Mr. Preston has no jurisdiction over any members of the staff in the High Commissioner's office, and his duties are confined to immigration work.
I.	C. R.-FUEL INSPECTOR.


Mr. FOSTER asked :: 1.	At what time was the position of fuel inspector on the Intercolonial created ?
2.	What are the duties of such officer ?
3.	Who holds the position at present, when was he appointed, and what is his remuneration ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	April 1891.
2.	To supervise delivery of coal to locomotives, to inspect it on locomotives while in actual service generating steam and to formulate methods for burning the various sorts of coal supplied so as to produce the greatest efficiency.


Mr. BOLE.: 3.	M. C. Lockhart. Appointed July 5, 1904. Salary $75 per month.



CUTTING TIMBER ON BADGLEY ISLAND.

George Eulas Foster: Has the Department of Indian Affairs granted permits or licenses to any person or persons to cut timber on Badgley island, north shore of Georgian bay, during the year 1904 or 1905 1 M so, to whom, and to what' extent ?


Right Hon.   S@: No permits or licenses have been granted by the Department of Indian Affairs to any person or persons to cut timber on Badgley island, north shore of Georgian bay, during the year 1904 or 1905.



DAVID ROUSE, CUSTOMS OFFICER.

Mr. URIAH WILSON asked :: 1.	Upon what date did David Rouse receive his appointment as customs officer at the village of Bath, in the counties of Lennox and Addington ?
2.	What salary did he receive when he received the appointment ?
3.	Has his salary been increased since that' date, and when ?
4.	What is his present salary ?
5.	What have been the collections at the Bath customs office per year since the year 1896 ?


Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: 1 and 2. David Rouse was installed into office as acting sub-collector of customs at Bath on May 18, 1898, at a salary of $150 a year on appointment in place of John Hogle, deceased, who had been receiving a salary of $450 a year.
3.	Mr. Rouse's salary was increased to $400, a year from July 1, 1900.
4.	His present salary is $400 a year.
5.	The customs collections at Bath for the eight years from July 1, 1896, to July 1, 1904, were $362.73.



SALARY OF W. T. R. PRESTON.

Mr. MONK asked :: 1.	What is the present salary of W. T. R. Preston, engaged in immigration work by the government in Europe ?
2.	What amount has been paid to said Preston on account of travelling or other expenses during the past year ?
3.	Where is he at present, and what work is be now engaged upon ?
4.	What is the date of his last report to the Department of the Interior ?
5.	How many reports has he made during the past year ?


Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	$3,000 per annum.
2.	$679.49 for the 11 months ended November 30, 1904.
3.	In London, England, discharging the duties of Commissioner of Immigration for

Canada, with supervision over all agencies in the British Isles and on the continent of Europe.
4.	June 30, 1904.
5.	One, covering fiscal year 1903-4. This is now being printed.



EMPLOYMENT OF EXTRA MEN ON WELLAND CANAL.

Mr. LANCASTER asked :: 1.	How many extra men were employed on the Welland canal during the months of September, October and November, 1J04 ?
2.	At whose request and on whose recommendation were these men placed at work ?
3.	What was the nature of their employment, and at what locks or weirs, or on what parts of the canals were they employed ?
4.	What was their remuneration per day ?
5.	When were they discharged, and why ?


Hon.  H. R.@: BM'MEieSON (Minister of Railways and Canals):
1.	September, 25 men; October, 74 men ; November, 42 men.
2.	The superintending engineer required the men, and they were employed on the recommendation of those in whom the department had confidence.
3.	General repairs, ditching in I-Iumber-stone and along the Feeder, locks 12, 15 and 16. Setting steel poles and building transformer in connection with the electric light plant.
4.	$1.50 per day.
5.	Some were discharged at end of October and some on December 1 last. Work at which they were employed being completed.



REPORT PRESENTED.

[Stage Direction]
Annual report of the Department of the Interior for the year ending June 30, 1904. -Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

Mr. W. B. NORTHRUP (East Hastings).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the right hon. leader of the government (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) if the government has any information to lay before the House as to the cause of the non-gazetting of the return of the member lately elected in the Yukon ? I understand that in the election in the Yukon, held on December 16 last, Dr. Thompson is said to be elected. The return has not yet been gazetted and the House, I believe, has no information as to whether any return has been made. I would suggest that, particularly at this time, when a Bill to provide for the autonomy of the Territories is about to be brought before parliament, it is important that the Yukon should be represented. It would seem that, if any person is to blame for the delay, the sooner that is discovered the better.


Hon. CHARLES FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice).: The question of the return 15*
of the member elected for the Yukon came under the notice of the Secretary of State, who made inquiry as to the reason why the regular return had not been made. He was informed by telegram from the Yukon that February 7 had been fixed by the returning officer as the day for the declaration of the result of the election. The Secretary of State, not having any authority to interfere, sent a telegram to press upon the returning officer the importance of settling the matter at once, so that the hon. gentleman who had been elected might take his seat at the earliest possible moment.


George Eulas Foster: When was the writ returnable?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I have not that date in mind at the moment. I thought the question of this return would come up, and had a full statement concerning it, but, unfortunately, I did not bring the papers with me. I shall be prepared to make a full statement to-morrow.


George Eulas Foster: It seems a long wait for this return.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It does seem rather peculiar. I have made inquiry myself and I find that under the Yukon Representation Act there are certain provisions of the Dominion Elections Act that are not made applicable to the Yukon, and that, strictly speaking, the returning officer was within his rights in fixing February 7, as the flay for making his declaration. Still, the delay is unusual, and he has been asked to make an explanation.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the returning officer?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not remember the name. But I will have the papers with me to-morrow and will be ready to make a full statement.



BRITISH EMBARGO ON CANADIAN CATTLE.

Mr. HAUGHTON LENNOX (South Sim-coe).: I desire to call the attention of the government to ap item appearing in the Montreal 'Daily Star ' in reference to the embargo on Canadian cattle. And, as this is a matter in which every hon. member is interested, and one that effects very deeply the interests of the country, I will take the liberty of reading a few lines. In the special cable correspondence dated February 1, is the following :-
Hon. Henry Chaplin, ex-Minister of Agriculture, started yesterday at Oakham a campaign in the rural constituencies against re-opening British ports to Canadian store cattle. He hotly denounced Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman for so trifling with the heavy responsibilities which may soon be his as a minister of the crown by favouring the re-exposure of British herds to the risk of disease after the enormous trouble and expense of stamping it

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out. If the Canadian store cattle are readmitted, British agriculturists would again find their herds decimated by disease. The removal of the embargo would be an act of insanity, ruinous to the British cattle feeders.
And the correspondent sums it up under the head ' Canada's Problem.'
A most interesting political situation is thus created. The question asked is ' Can the Canadian government enable Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman to prove to parliament that the Canadian herds are absolutely free from risk of contagion from the American States ? '
I see by the press, particularly in the Toronto ' World,' the statement that the government is about to take active measures to secure the removal of the British embargo. I do not know whether that is a fact or not, but am quite aware that the government in common with members on this side of the House appreciate the importance of having that embargo removed. I submit that it is very important that the agitation now going on against the removal of the embargo should be, in some way, counteracted.


Mr. R. G. MACPHERSON (Vancouver City).: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lennox) if he suppressed any of the despatch he has just quoted from. We had the spectacle last year of that hon. gentleman reading a letter in the House and suppressing part of it.


Haughton Lennox: I will, as a matter of privilege, reply to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Macpherson) at a suitable time. The public press, I hope, is open to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Macpherson), and I commend it to his consideration. The public press affords exceptional means of enlightenment, and I commend it to the hon. gentleman.


Robert George Macpherson: I would ask the hon. gentleman


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Robert George Macpherson: I would ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lennox) to hand the paper over to me, or to lay it on the table, so that I can see it for myself.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Lennox) has brought to the attention of the House a most important subject which is, apparently, to-day engaging the attention of public men in the old country. For some time past references have appeared in the British press and in the cable despatches in our own newspapers to the utterances of public men on both sides of politics on this subject in the political campaign now going on. I have watched closely the reports of these utterances.
I have felt, however, that it was not for any public men in Canada to interject into a political controversy in the old land-the view of the people of Canada upon this subject-I thought that it would injure the Mr. LENNOX.
position that Canada might occupy in the discussion of the subject with the British government when the time becomes ripe for re-opening the discussion. I may say, that, some time ago, the then Minister of Agriculture in England declared emphatically that there was no use in discussing that question, because the embargo would not be removed. That statement was called forth, I might say, by representations made by the government of Canada on this subject. We have felt, since an emphatic reply of that kind was given, that there was nothing further for us to do until an opportune occasion arose for re-opening the question. I may add that, within the last few weeks what appeared to me to be an opportune occasion for re-opening that question occurred. There was a report, apparently authentic, that the present Minister of Agriculture had declared publicly that, from his observation, the people of Canada seemed to be quite satisfied with the present condition of affairs, and that being the case there was no necessity for further discussing the matter. I took the liberty of immediately making a recommendation to His Excellency, that a despatch should be sent to the home government drawing attention to this utterance, asking if it were an official utterance, correctly reported, and pointing out that if it were, the Minister of Agriculture was labouring under a most grave misapprehension as to the condition of opinion on this question in Canada. So far no reply to that despatch has been received. The question is an important one in the interest of Canadian trade and in the interest of Canadian stock raisers and those who are in the live stock trade between Canada and the old land. I want to assure the hon. gentleman and the House that the question is one which is constantly watched on behalf of the government, and that every occasion that seems possible on which the views of the Canadian people and the interests of the Canadian trade can be furthered will be taken advantage of and has been taken advantage of.


George Eulas Foster: I think it would be more within the comprehension of the House if the hon. minister would lay that despatch from which he has quoted on the table for the information of hon. members. No doubt we would all like to read that despatch. It is strong and eloquently expressed I have no doubt.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will be very happy indeed to bring a copy of that despatch down at once.


William Findlay Maclean: Does the hon. Minister of Agriculture lay down the doctrine that it would be a good thing for Canadians to export their store cattle to England rather than fatten them here ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have never laid down any doctrine on that point, but I do lay down

the doctrine that it would be in the interest of the Canadian live stock trade to have the embargo removed.


William Findlay Maclean: Yes, but not for lean cattle.


Mr. BENNETT.: As the bon. Minister of Agriculture effected a change in the United State regulations, perhaps he may be able to effect a change in the English regulations. The hon. minister took credit all over the country for having done that, claiming that he alone and not the American government had been all powerful.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I shall be very happy if I can do so.



FLOODS AT VERDUN, QUE.

Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved :: For copies of correspondence exchanged between parties in the town of Verdun, county of Jacques Cartier, and the Montreal Harbour Board, or the Department of Marine and Fisheries, respecting protection against floods at Verdun, along the shore of the St. Lawrence River.
He said : Mr. Speaker, the object of this motion is to obtain copies of letters which have been addressed by parties in the town of Verdun near Montreal either to the harbour board of Montreal or to the government in regard to protection against floods. I may mention for the information of the House, that the town of Verdun has extended probably with greater rapidity and has developed faster than any other suburb of Montreal during the past eight years. In 1890 there were but a few houses where the town of Verdun stands to-day. The number of people residing there was so small that it was not then deemed necessary to hold a political meeting during the elections ol' 1890. To-day the town has a voters' list, I think, of over 1,000 names, there are four polling subdivisions, the population is large, the number of houses has increased in an extraordinary ratio, the street cars from Montreal pass through tfie town, has electric light, water and drainage and the place is increasing every day. Last year the town suffered a very serious reverse in the shape of an inundation caused by the rising of the St. Lawrence river during the spring freshets. The water inundated the town partly by coming into the tail race of the Montreal waterworks and overflowing the banks of the tail race. The bank is larger on the side of the city of Montreal than on the western side, that is on the side of Verdun, and the water poured in there in a single night in great quantities. It also came in in the ordinary way from the St. Lawrence river overflowing the banks of the river. I may mention that the damage was very considerable indeed. The protection afforded in the vicinity of Montreal against floods only extends into a part of
the town of Verdun, It would be necessary, to make that protection absolutely effective, to extend the wall higher up along the river St. Lawrence for some distance along the frontage of the town of Verdun. I saw by the papers that letters had been addressed to the harbour commissioners asking them to provide protection against a recurrence of such a disastrous accident as happened last year. I think it would be a very proper thing for my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Pre-fontaine), or the Department of Marine and Fisheries, to cause an investigation to be made by an engineer of the department, and I know of no engineer possibly who would be more competent to make that investigation than Mr. St. George who was for so long a time the engineer of the city of Montreal and who had occasion particularly to study this matter of inundations. I think it would be only justice to the people of Verdun if the hon. minister would cause an investigation to be made as to what would be the best protection to be afforded against inundations of the town from the St. Lawrence in that locality. As I read the statute, 57-58 Vic., chap. 48, which is the last Act having reference to the harbour commissioners of Montreal, it appears to me, that that part of the town of Verdun which requires protection is outside of the jurisdiction of the harbour commissioners.
1	may be mistaken but I find in schedule
2	of the Act that I have just referred to that the western limit of the Montreal Harbour Board's jurisdiction is at the Little River St. Pierre and the inundation was caused by the situation of the land higher up than the entry of the Little River St. Pierre. If my interpretation of the schedule is correct it would be for the Department of Marine and Fisheries itself to look into the cause of that inundation and if possible to provide a remedy, because the results of last year's inundation were disastrous in the extreme. The damage was in a certain sense incalculable. These inundations, should they recur, would prevent the development of that thriving town, and if I am correctly informed by the people who know the locality well it would be very easy for the Department of Marine and Fisheries to provide adequate protection against inundation. I may mention, sir, that during the last election, the government candidate in the county of Jacques Cartier pledged himself solemnly as a supporter of the government that this matter would receive the immediate attention of the government.


Mr. PREFONTAINE.: He was not elected.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There was no condition of course, as my hon. friend will naturally suppose, in regard to that pledge. It was to be done absolutely under any circumstances whatever. People have relied upon that pledge ; in fact I did not receive at the time that support of the electors of Ver-

46a
dun which I might have received had the circumstances been different. I think the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, (Mr. I'rfi-fontaine) will appreciate the necessity of at least causing an investigation to be made. The continuation of the protection wall along the bank of the River St. Lawrence to such a point towards the west as would prevent the possibility of inundation from the river itself would not be very expensive. I think at any rate the engineer would be fully able to inform the department on that matter. The other point where water flowed in, that is to say the bank of the tail-race of the Montreal waterworks, just where it enters the River St. Lawrence is absolutely, as I understand the statute X have already quoted, under the control of the Department of Marine, and that department may either order the city of Montreal to provide there a sufficiently high bank to the tail-race to prevent the possibility of any flow in the future, or the department may itself execute the work if it thinks fit to do so. I commend this question, which interests greatly the town of Verdun, to the attention of my hon. friend the minister (Mr. Prefontaine).


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: In answer to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Monk) I may state that there will be no objection whatever to the production of the papers mentioned, and those that are not in the possession of the department shall be procured from the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal. As regards having a special report made as to the state of affairs at Verdun, I shall consider the matter seriously and consult with Mr. St. George whose name has been mentioned. I know he is a competent man to do this work, because he has been connected with all the works of flood protection in Montreal during the last ten years.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 8) to amend the Mounted Police Act, 1894.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier-read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
On section 1, pay of the force.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: How will this compare with the salaries now given ? [DOT]


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: At a previous stage I explained that the object of this Bill is to increase the pay of the officers by $400 and of the non-commissioned officer's and constables by 25 cents a day. At present, for instance, the commissioner who has charge of the police at Regina receives $2,600. He will receive $3,000. A superintendent receives if I remember rightly Mr. MONK.
$1,400 ; he will now receive $1,800. The inspectors receive $1,000 ; they will receive $1,400. I may say that this is the maximum, and it is not intended to give them that amount of increase at once. The plan we have adopted is that all officers who have been eight years in the service shall receive at once the increase of $400 ; all others will receive increases varying by $50 for each year that they have been in the service, until they reach $1,400. All those who have been eight years in the service will receive at once the increase of $400 ; those who have been seven years will receive an increase of $350 ; those who have been six years will receive $300 and those who have been one, year in the service will receive an increase of $50. The same principle applies to the constables.


George Eulas Foster: How many assistant commissioners are there ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: The list of officers gives 55. Thirteen officers will at once receive the $400 ; two will receive $350 each ; two will receive $300 ; five will receive $250 ; eight will receive $200 ; two will receive $150 ; eight will receive $100 ; ten will receive $50 ; five will receive nothing.


Mr. BERGERON.: Who is the commissioner ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Colonel Perry.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What has become of his predecessor, Colonel Herchmer ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: He was superannuated in 1901 or 1902.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: On how much ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I cannot give the exact amount, whatever the law allows him. He came under the rules of the Civil Service and received just the amount that he was legally entitled to.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Before or after he went to South Africa ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: After his return.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This seems to be a somewhat large increase in salary all at once. To increase a man's salary from by $400 to $2,000 is an increase of 25 per cent. It seems to me there should be some good reason for such a large increase at one time. The Premier has not given us a reason for it.


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I have on a previous occasion given the reason for if. Last year there was an expression of opinion on both sides of the House that the police were insufficiently paid, and my impression is that even with this increase in salaries the police will not be too highly

paid. Everything has gone up in price as my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) knows and in the west, where everything is growing very fast, the cost of living is far in excess of what it is in the east. For instance, the maximum pay of a superintendent is $100 less than that of a first-class clerk, and the maximum pay of an inspector is $100 less than that of a second-class clerk. Under these circumstances, I do not think the police are overpaid for the very important duties they perform, and in providing for them this very moderate increase I think we, are simply doing what the country would expect of us.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Notwithstanding that, I still contend that an explanation is necessary, and it seems to me that, coming from hon. gentlemen opposite, it is doubly necessary considering the doctrine they preached years ago when in opposition, that if they came to power they would make this a cheap country to live in. Now it is a dear country to live in, and the right hon. gentleman gives that as an excuse for these increases of salary. I am not complaining of the work done by the Mounted Police, because I think they do their work very well, and are entitled to as high pay as any similar class of men in the country. But it seems to me that when the increase is not a very moderate one, or is what some would regard as an immoderate one, some special reasons ought to be given for it. Last year we increased the salaries of the civil service in Ottawa, but I do not think that in any case the increase reached the proportion of the increase now proposed for the Mounted Police, an increase of 25 per cent at one jump.


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I am afraid that the remarks of my hon. friend will make my modesty blush. It is true we said that we expected to make Canada a cheap country to live in, but we did not then anticipate that we would do as well as we have done, or that the country would be as prosperous as it is to-day, with immigrants going into the Northwest Territories at the rate of
150,000	a year. I am sure that my hon. friend will agree with me that the conditions are very different'from what they were in his time. I am surprised at the criticism of my hon. friend, and in future I shall have to resist the blandishments of hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. Last year they asked for increases of salary. I yielded to their demands, and now I am criticised. In spite of that, I think I shall have to persist in my good intention. For instance, Colonel Perry, the commissioner of the force, who receives $2,600, is to receive $3,000, which is certainly not an exaggerated price for the services he renders to the country. An inspector, who ranks, say, with a captain, receives to-day $1,000. There are men who have been in that class for twenty years or more, and they are to receive at once $1,400, while officers appointed last year will receive an increase only of $50, while those who have been inspectors for over a year will receive $1,100, and so on until they reach the maximum of $1,400. If my hon. friend will look at the facts as they are, and forget the speeches of former years, he will agree with me that these increases are very, reasonable.


Mr. OSLER.: I must say that for once I thoroughly agree with the right hon. gentleman.


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Hear, hear- for once only.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I hope for more than once, but on this occasion at any rate. The Northwest is at the present time an exceedingly expensive country to live in. It is found by those who have business there that the salaries of almost every class of men have been raised, and the Mounted Police are certainly deserving of the most generous treatment that can be meted out to them.


William Findlay Maclean: What is the total number of the police now


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Six hundred in the Northwest Territories and 300 in the Yukon.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Was there an increase of the force last year or the year before ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: There was an increase of 100 men last year.


George Eulas Foster: How is the force distributed ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: There are about 85 posts distributed all over the Territories, from the American frontier to the mouth of the Mackenzie river and from the Red river to the Macleod district. We have established some new posts along the route of the Canadian Northern Railway, and we have two or three posts on the Mackenzie river between Slave lake and the mouth of the river.


George Eulas Foster: Is the force generally being diminished in the eastern portion of the country, which is the more settled and the more rapidly increasing in population, and is the augmentation of the force in the parts farther west and north? My'right hon. friend knows that in earlier times, in the eastern parts of the Northwest Territories, the number of Mounted Police at the different stations was large, and they gradually came to do almost all the duties done by constables and police in the more settled districts. Before we went out of office we were gradually withdrawing the Mounted Police from the more thickly settled districts towards the east and sending them further north and west without augmenting the total number of the force. Is this process still going on, or is the force in the eastern districts still doing what the muni-

cipalities do down here, and what the municipalities will have to do up there as population flows in ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIEII.: I am sorry to say that we have made very little progress in that direction, and, if I remember aright, I do not think that the progress made by the government of my hon. friend in that direction was very marked either. We have experienced the same difficulty that was experienced by our predecessors. When we have made attempts to discontinue posts in a district that is sufficiently well settled to enable the people to take care of their own protection, we have received from all parts of the district the most unanimous protests against the removal of the force. AVe have demonstrated to the people again and again that they must take charge of their own police, especially now. when settlement is going northward, particularly into the Saskatchewan valley, where we have been obliged to establish new posts. But I must confess that I am not satisfied with the progress that we have been able to make in that direction.


William Findlay Maclean: AVill it be possible to reduce the force in the eastern portion of the Territories when the new provinces are created ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Instead of reducing the force, we shall have to increase it. According as the Territories become more settled along the American frontier, there are greater opportunities afforded for stealing horses and cattle and smuggling and in other respects violating the law. We intend increasing the pay of the force by 25 cents a day. The pay of a colour sergeant, which to-day is $1.50 will be made $1.75. The pay of the other sergeants, which is $1, will be made $1.25. The pay of a corporal will be raised from 85 cents to $1.10 a day, and of a constable from 50 cents to 75 cents. We propose to raise the pay gradually. One-third will receive an increase of 25 cents and two-thirds an increase of from 10 to 20 cents.


George Eulas Foster: So far as the increase of pay is concerned I do not feel disposed to raise any objection. AVe have a splendid body of men out there, and the country has been well repaid by the services of the force for the money it has cost. I do not expect that for years to come the total of the force will be diminished. It will, on the contrary, rather be increased, at any rate until municipal institutions are firmly established and tiie population becomes sufficiently large to keep up these institutions. I venture to express the hope that this force will be, as it was under the late government, kept entirely free from the blight of political partisanship and administered with a sole eye to merit.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is meant by the term ' unorganized portions of the Northwest Territories ?' Is it that portion with-Mr. FOSTER.
out provincial autonomy or municipal organization ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: By that is meant the Mackenzie River territory and the forts very far north, also the Hudson Bay territory. AVe give the men there extra pay.
*


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Does any portion of the Mounted Police operate in Manitoba ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Yes, on the southern frontier.


William Findlay Maclean: How many men on Hudson Bay ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: A couple of years ago an officer and five men were sent there. I could not say how many are there now.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is not the force at present the sole force charged with the maintenance of order in the territories not yet organized into provinces, and when that organization takes place will that not make a very considerable change in the duties of the force ! As soon as there is provincial organization there will be municipal institutions, and the duty of maintaining law and order will then devolve upon the local authorities ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I must say at once that even after the territories are organized into provinces we do not see the feasibility of dispensing with the services of the force. Of course when the municipalities are organized they will have to look after their own protection, but there is still a very large Indian population in the country and a great many immigrants coming in, and we have to provide, not onB' against violations of the customs laws, but for the protection of lawr and order of every kind. I do not think I am slandering the neighbouring country when I say that there is a lawless element coming in from that country against which we have to guard constantly, and we are bound to take every precaution to show new settlers that in Canadian territory life and property are amply protected.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: AVhen will the Bill for provincial organization he brought down ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: About the second week in February, but cannot say for certain.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The pay of the men is apart, I presume, from the rations ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: Yes, we provide rations beside the pay.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Of course, I do not want to annoy the right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), but, remembering old days, I cannot but be impressed with the changes that time has brought in the opinions of hon. gentlemen opposite. I can remember, when hon. gentlemen opposite were on this side, when there was an urgent de-

mand from them for the reduction of the force, and reasons were strongly urged why the country should not be called upon to pay so much for a useless army. In fact, I believe, these urgings were so strong, that the government of that time did diminish the force by a couple of hundred men. But the right hon. prime minister and his friends later on, thought the force should be Increased again. I hope that increase was not made necessary by the kind of immigration the government is bringing into the Northwest. The government boasts loudly of increasing the immigration by hundreds of thousands ; but it is not difficult to effect that increase considering the quality of some of that immigration, and considering that the government spend annually $700,000 more than their predecessors in the promotion of immigration. I will not follow the example of the right hon. gentleman and his party when in opposition by finding fault with this measure. It is a good thing for the Northwest that we should have a good police force, and when these men render good service, they should be well paid.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Penitentiaries-general, $9,450.
['The resolution of the Minister of Justice with regard to the appointment of judges to the Railway Commission, then the Census Bill, and then Supply, taking up the Public Works estimates.']
George Eulas Foster: That seems to be a new item.


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, that is the usual item. It provides for the expense of general administration at Ottawa. There is no change except a statutory increase of $50 to the architect.


George Eulas Foster: There is au architect?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Formerly this officer was connected with the Kingston penitentiary. But I thought it better to remove him to headquarters. His salary is now charged against the general expenditure. He has been in the service for many years.


George Eulas Foster: I suppose his work is in connection with repairs?


Charles Fitzpatrick: And construction-additional wings and that sort of thing.


George Eulas Foster: Does the Department of Justice carry on construction of that kind?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. We get an appropriation for material, and use convict labour.


George Eulas Foster: What is the staff at headquarters?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Two inspectors, the architect, officers contingencies and the expenses of the parole officer. That is a new officer appointed last year.


George Eulas Foster: I suppose he looks after the paroled prisoners ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. The man who is doing the work is not paid a salary but works voluntary. Mr. Archibald of the Salvation Army. He is doing an immense amount of good.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister explain what this officer does ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: When a prisoner is about to be discharged upon parole, the officer is informed. He endeavours, as far as possible, to obtain employment for the man to help him in any way possible. If, for instance, the man is a mechanic, the officer provides him with a kit of tools. We have a vote of $2,000, part of which is placed at the disposal of the officer for these purposes.


George Eulas Foster: What conclusion has the minister reached as to the results of this work?


Charles Fitzpatrick: My conclusion is indicated by the fact that I have asked Inspector Archibald to apply for his release from tlie head of the Salvation Army, so that he may be able to devote his whole time to this work at a fixed salary. Mr. Archibald is an eminently satisfactory official, and will be in a position to do good service in this branch of the administration.


George Eulas Foster: Does the minister find it less difficult to get employment for the paroled men?


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is an institution in Toronto-I do not wish to mention the name openly-in which we have ten paroled men. We have received applications from employers who are ready to engage these men-of course, always on the recommendation of Mr. Archibald-and he takes the trouble to look after them after they leave the establishment. .


George Eulas Foster: How many men were let out on parole last year?


Charles Fitzpatrick: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) will look at page II the last report of the department he will find a comparative statement of the paroles, pardons, deaths and escapes. Last year, 122 men were paroled. We find the system to work most satisfactorily. One difficulty in connection with the parole is the reporting. The man paroled is obliged to report to the police officials of the locality in which he resides. I find that some of the police officials-and I make this statement here publicly in the hope that some good may come of it-are far too zealous. They go about and make trouble for the unfortunate paroled convict. I have a case in mind in which the convict himself told me that the police officers took the trouble to go to tlie employer and tell him that the man was

a paroled convict, and, in ways which I will not particularize succeeded in obliging the convict to leave his employment. That is an act of great cruelty, and I make mention of it that those who are guilty of such atrocious conduct may know that it does not receive the approval of parliament.


George Eulas Foster: What is the proportion of the lapses ? You had 120 on parole but the year before would furnish a better figure to take.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The year before the number was 113. I do not know that I can find here the exact figures, but some time ago I asked the Commissioner of Dominion Police, Col. Sherwood, who has control of these discharged convicts so far as police supervision is concerned, and the report he made to me was that it would be about seven per cent. That I consider very satisfactory.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the principle upon which the hon. gentleman acts '!


Charles Fitzpatrick: In the first place, the inspector visits the penitentiaries once or twice a year, when every convict in the penitentiary is entitled to see the inspector separate from the warden or any other officer, that is separate from Mr. Stewart and from Mr. Dawson. If the convict wishes to have his case brought before the minister, he makes his complaint to the inspector, who, on his return, makes a report to myself, and I take up the different cases and look into them. Or the convict may make a petition, or his friends on his behalf, to the department ; or another method is that he may apply" through Mr. Archibald, who goes about and visits all these penitentiaries, and who may make a request that a man be discharged on parole. Then the procedure is to apply to the convicting magistrate, or to the judge, for a report of his case.


George Eulas Foster: On that one point-is it the practice of the department always to apply to the judge ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Invariably, it is a rule without exception. Of course it would be impossible properly" to deal with these cases if I did otherwise, I cannot have any knowledge of the facts brought out on the trial. I get the magistrate's report, then I apply to the warden in order to ascertain what the conduct of the convict has been while he was in the penitentiary". Then having before me the report of the committing magistrate, or judge, and the warden's report, I consider the case myself. If this has been a second offence, the application is almost without exception refused, except in a case where Mr. Archibald might point out some particular reason why under the circumstances the man should be paroled. But if it is a first offence, or if the convict is a young man and I see that he has an opportunity of getting employment, unless the Mr. FITZPATRICK.
convicting magistrate has reported strongly against him, so far as possible I help the man along. It may be that I have dealt somewhat generously with these people, but up to the present I have had no occasion to regret it. A first offender always receives consideration as far as it is possible to give it, especially if he is a young man. Then if he is allowed out he is obliged to report every month to the police officer in the locality where he resides.
Mr. FOSTER, This is different, of course, from a case where the minister, under the authority vested in him, pardons out an offender.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Is it the rule of the department in such cases always to get a report from the judge ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. There are two things that are essential in all cases whether the application is for pardon or for parole, that is to get a report of the trial from the judge and of the conditions under which sentence was given, and a report from the warden. That rule is never departed from.


George Eulas Foster: There is a case I have in my mind which I must look into a little more before I bring it to the attention of the minister. The minister may understand that something like this takes place : There are men who seem particularly willing to take up the cases of men who are charged with crimes, and after having gone through the courts of law are sent down for punishment; there seems to be in some cases almost a mania with these individuals to take up a case like that and approach the minister or authorities and make capital, and perhaps money for themselves, by getting these persons pardoned out. Sometimes they succeed, not so much from the justice of the case, or the merits of the case involved, as from the fact that the person who is interesting himself has, as he thinks, large influence in the party, and he uses that influence for all it is worth in order to commend his case to the department. Now there are one or two cases which came before my own observation, and which, from the apparent circumstances, seemed to me to be rather gross. One of them I intend to talk over with my hon. friend, and if it is such as I think it is, I have no doubt that he will pay every consideration to what I may bring before him. I think it is a great mistake for criminals or others to get an idea into their heads that by getting certain influential persons to act as intermediaries in their behalf they can escape, to a certain extent, the penalty of the crimes they have committed. But the parole business is quite a different matter from that. I am glad to hear the minister say that in all cases it is his invariable rule, before either pardon or

parole is granted, to get the judgment of the court giving sentence.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I may say in answer to my hon. friend that I have in my mind cases such as he refers to, and I can assure him that the gentlemen in question, probably the same person he refers to, has realized by this time that he has no access to the Do partment of Justice which any other person does not have. There is no royal road to the Department of Justice. I would like to add that there has never been a case decided by myself that had not previously been examined by Mr. Power, of the Department of Justice, a gentleman in whom we have the greatest possible confidence, who has had an experience extending over twenty years in dealing with matters of this kind. I can safely make this statement, that there is not a case in which I have taken action without a previous report by Mr. Power.


Mr. SLAIN.: How frequent have reports to be made to the local authorities ?
tentiaries he will find a comparative statement of the paroles granted since the Act was brought into force in 1898. Last year there were paroled 122 convicts.


Mr. STOCKTON.: The hon. minister states that on certain occasions he allows them to go to the United States. In that case does he require a report every month, and if so, to whom ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, if a man is permitted to go to the United States he is exempted from the obligation to report.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Every month ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. I am reminded of the condition under which the parole is granted. It is that they shall not leave the country.


Alfred Augustus Stockton: If leave is given, and if they leave the country you do not expect a report from them ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Once a month. The convict is obliged to report each month to the local police authorities. If he fails to report, his case goes to the commissioner of police. If he does report, nothing is said, but if he fails to report each month, the commissioner of police is notified, and as a result applies to me for a cancellation of the ticket-of-leave, and the man goes back to the penitentiary.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Do I understand from the Minister of Justice that if a man fails to report he is recommitted to the penitentiary?


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is the ruie.


David Henderson: What becomes of those who go to the United States, for example, beyond the jurisidiction of the minister ? How are they dealt with?


Charles Fitzpatrick: If a man goes to the United States without permission of the minister, he is dealt with as a man who has failed to report, and if he comes back he is iecommitted to the penitentiary. Very frequently it may happen that there is a condition attached to the pardon, and if a man violates that in going to the United States, and if his relatives bring him back then he would have to go back to the penitentiary and purge his sentence. But in the case of a paroled convict he may apply for leave to go to the United States, and it sometimes happens that I grant leave; in fact, I almost invariable grant it if a proper case is shown.


David Henderson: I would like to know how many at the present time are out on this ticket-of-leave. This is a question that considerable interest is taken in throughout the country, and any information the hon. minister can give I am sure will be appreciated.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friend will look at page II of the report on peni-


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Are there any cases of any persons who have been allowed out on ticket-of-leave being sent back to the penitentiary?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Oh, yes-about seven per cent. I have not the exact figures here, but the inspector tells me that it is about seven per cent.
ill-. MONK. Last session two returns were ordered by the House. One was a return in respect to the parties allowed out on ticket-of-leave within a certain period of time. The other was a return as to the parties convicted of arson and who bad subsequently7 been allowed out on ticket-of-leave. I do not think that either return was brought down, and I would like my toon, friend to make a note of it and see that the returns are brought down.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friend will look at page II. of the report on penitentiaries, he will find the number of convicts who have been allowed out since the Act first came into force. In respect to the arson cases I have not the slightest recollection of what my hon. friend refers to. If he will be good enough to send me a note I will see that the information is brought down.


David Henderson: I understand from the hon. minister that seven per cent of those who have been allowed out have been returned to the penitentiary. May I ask whether they have been returned for failing to report or for some other criminal offence ? I desire to ascertain what effect this leniency of the minister has had upon criminals and upon the country generally.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If a man fails to report he is returned to the penitentiary unless cause is shown. I referred to a case a few minutes ago in which a man failed to report because he found that by reason of

his reporting he was hounded to death by the local police officials, and on a report to me by Inspector Archibald to that effect, I relieved him of obligation to report. If a man out on ticket-of-leave commits an offence which of itself would not require that he should be returned to the penitentiary, the simple fact that he has committed a breach of the law makes it necessary to send him back to the penitentiary to purge his original offence. For instance, if a man had three years further to serve, if I allowed him out on parole, if he committed an assault and he was brought before a magistrate and convicted of this offence for which he would probably have to serve a month he would have to go back to the penitentiary and purge his original sentence.


David Henderson: I understand that about seven per cent have been returned, some for failing to report and others for haying committed a breach of the peace whilst out on parole. What proportion has been returned for some criminal offence committed whilst out on parole ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I certainly cannot give the information now, and I do not think that I have in my department the information to give that answer:- But, I will say that as a result of the Salvation Army- or perhaps I should not say that-but as a result of the work of Inspector Archibald, there is a great improvement in reference to the parole system, and I think if it should be possible for him to devote his whole time to this prison gate work, that the result will be that -we will have very few paroled men who will have to be treated as second offenders. Inspector Archibald is exceedingly sympathetic, he is exceedingly enthusiastic in the performance of this work, and I think the greatest possible good will result from his aid to the unfortunate whom we allow out on parole.


Mr. BARR.: If the Salvation Army have accomplished so much, why should they not get the credit ? Why should you give it all to Inspector Archibald ? I think this is a recognition of the work they have accomplished which has done more for these unfortunate men than the machinery of the law, and in that case why not give them the credit ? It does seem to me that we should encourage the Salvation Army and try to further the work that they are now doing.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Originally the Salvation Army did prison gate work. When I became Minister of Justice it occurred to me that they were doing very good work and that they should be assisted. I entered into communication with Miss Eva Booth, then at the head of the Salvation Army, and as a result she suggested that Inspector Archibald should be specially charged with this work while maintaining his connection with the Salvation Army. But, she pointed Mr. FITZPATRICK.
cut that the Salvation Army as a body could not conduct this work to an extent beyond what they were doing. Inspector Archibald undertook to deal with the matter while remaining a member of the Salvation Army and the result is what I have explained. But, I think it necessary, and this is the suggestion of Inspector Archibald himself, that he should give his whole time to this work. There is quite enough for him to do if he gave his whole time to it, and he has applied to General Booth as an official of the Army for leave to engage in this work so that he may become a permanent official of the government.


John Barr: Does the Salvation Army receive any assistance from the government?


Charles Fitzpatrick: None whatever. We are simply paying the travelling expenses of Inspector Archibald, and there is $500 which we place at his disposal, and on which he can draw for'the purpose of procuring the ordinary necessaries that a convict may require to enable him to make a start in life again.
Mr. OtSLER. Inspector Archibald Is a member of the Salvation Army ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes, he is the Inspector at Toronto.


Mr.  U. WIBSON@: The hon. minister will remember that there was a small appropriation taken last year for this purpose and !I would like to know how much has been spent?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The amount appropriated last year was $1,500 for travelling expenses and $500 for assistance to paroled and discharged convicts-about $2,000 in all.
iMr. U. WILSON. I presume that the hon. minister is quite as well satisfied as he was a year ago with the work ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes, I am so well satisfied that I want to secure Inspector Archibald's services altogether for the department.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: If I remember rightly.
I think that some of the convicts in the different penitentiaries do not wait until the law comes to their aid and they are released on parole. How many convicts escaped from the different penitentiaries last year ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Those who took leave were one last year, one in 1902 and one in 1901. Of course, those who got away and were afterwards recaptured are not entered as escaped convicts.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: My hon. friend speaks only of the one who never returned. Are the authorities still looking for him, or have you given up ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I believe we are still looking after him.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What was the last mews ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: He has not written me lately, hut I am not without hope that some information may be had of him.


Mr. F. WILSON.: This is a large item, and I would again urge, as I have urged for several session the putting- of the Auditor General's Report in the members' hands before the House meets. We have not yet got the whole report. I think it is most unfair to ask us to vote large sums like this without having been able to go through the details and to satisfy ourselves about them. This is in itself a strong argument for the printing of the Auditor General's Report in sections and its distribution to the members at their homes before they come here, because, as a rule, their time is fully occupied here with other matters.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not know the rule of other departments, but if the hon. member looks at page 115 of my report he will find all the details of expenditure.


Uriah Wilson: How long has that report been on the table ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think since Tuesday last, but the Auditor General's Report with respect to the Department of Justice has been on the table for at least a fortnight.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does the ticket-of-leave system apply only to penitentiaries, or does it apply to those who are imprisoned in jails for terms of less than two years ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes, it does.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is the same law ? I understood the minister to say that before interfering with the sentence he takes the opinion of the judge who has passed condemnation. In the case of Brunet, of Montreal, was there a report from the Chief Justice who condemned him ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Would my hon. friend bring down that report ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is no need ; it was only about four lines. I never look for any report from the Chief Justice, beyond a statement to the effect that the jury passed on the facts, that he had passed sentence, and that that ended it so far as he was concerned.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: So, in that case, the minister acted solely upon his own responsibility ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes ; I do not want to shift the burden ; I take it all on myself.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How many prisoners are there at present in the different penitentiaries ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friend will look at page 1 of the report he will find the prison population from 1894-5 down to last year. At the end of the last fiscal year the prison population was 1,286. At the present time it is 1,400.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: In all the peniten-ti'aa-ies ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is there any way of determining, from the increase or decrease of population, whether there is an increase or decrease in the morality of the country, if I may call it that ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: If the prison population is any index to the morality of the country, I would say that the morality is almost stationary. For instance, in 1894-5 the prison population was 1,250 : in 1897-8 it was 1.415 ; last year it was 1,286, and at the present moment it is 1,400. So you see it does not vary greatly.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is there no way of reducing the expense to the country of the maintenance of prisoners ? I have not made a special study of the matter, but I have read something about it, and in some countries they utilize the services of these men. All of us who have had dealings with the criminal courts know that many of these men are in the habit'of living in penitentiaries. Some of them do not conceal the fact that thpy live better in the penitentiaries than at home ; they cost on an average about $300 a year. Could their services not be profitably employed, for instance, in the macadamizing of roads ? There was a discussion on the employment of prisoners some years ago, but some opposition was made to it by some of the workingmen's societies on the ground that it would encroach on their own revenues ; but if they were employed on such work as the macadamizing of roads, which is not now done, they would not interfere with the labour market. Any one who knows our province knows that the roads are in a dreadful condition, and my impression is that if these men were engaged in outdoor work from 7 in the morning until 6 at night, like ordinary workingmen, they would not be in the penitentiary so often. I am only throwing out a suggestion, and I think this plan would be in the interests of the country.


Charles Fitzpatrick: One of the difficult problems connected with the administration of justice is to find useful employment for the criminals, not only for the advantage to. be derived from their labour, but for the benefit to themselves from being employed. There is not a penitentiary which has not some industry connected with it. At St. Vincent de Paul we have a very large farm, in connection with which we employ a great many convicts. In addition to that, there is a great deal of stone cutting, and, until

(recently, quite large building operations were carried on, while a certain number of men are employed in the tailor and shoe shops. That is to say, we endeavour, as far as possible, to utilize the services of the convicts for the purpose of doing all the work required in the penitentiary. At Kingston we endeavour to run, with more or less profit and success, a binder twine industry, and as far as possible, speaking generally, throughout the whole country we utilize the services of convicts. We realize what my hon. friend says, that it is necessary to keep these gentlemen busy.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I understand that the work they do is done for themselves, such as the making of their own boots and clothing ; but, of course, a good deal of money is required to purchase the raw materials. I do not think this goes far enough in the direction I indicated. I would like the convicts to do outside work that would not interfere with the employment of other people, such as road-making. I mention this as one of the things that might be done.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I have often thought of the possibility of utilizing these men, as on the continent, in connection with roadmaking. We have control of the convicts so long as they are within the penitentiary grounds, but not beyond the boundary of the penitentiary. The' benefit of their work would result to the municipality in which the penitentiary is situated. We could not take the convicts to a distance, because we would have to provide for them.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It would not cost more than it does at the present time. The men could be taken to any part of the province at a cost of not more than $300 a year each, and it costs that much to keep them now.


Charles Fitzpatrick: We know what it is to take criminals about. We have some-[DOT] times to bring men from Manitoba to St. Vincent de Paul because there is not room for them in the Manitoba penitentiary, and it costs an enormous amount of money. My hon. friend would be shocked if I told him the number of guards that we have to send with these men.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is done elsewhere. The cqnvicts who are put to work on the farm or breaking stone are the ones that have nearly finished their term. They are looked on as the safest to be trusted, although two of those who last escaped were among these. There are guards to look after these men, and the only extra expense to which the country would be put would be for feeding the guards. The prisoners have to be fed now.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Where would you house them?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: This work is done during the summer. An army of thousands Mr. FITZPATRICK.
of men can be provided for while engaged in making roads. They could camp.
Mr. FITZPATRICK Pic-nicing.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I am serious about this matter. We are paying an enormous amount of money for the maintenance of men whom we do not redeem. My opinion is that any man who has been in the penitentiary for a few years cannot do any good. Some time ago a man came to my office looking for work. He had formerly been in good circumstances, but had been in the penitentiary for eight or ten years. AVhile there he had learned the trade of a painter, and he told me that although he had been out of the country, people knew that he had been a convict, and he could not get work anywhere.


Mr. AMES.: In looking through the items given for Kingston, St. Vincent de Paul. Dorchester, Manitoba and elsewhere, and comparing them with the items in the Auditor General's Report, I find, roughly speaking, that about half the amount proposed to be voted for each of these penitentiaries can be classified under miscellaneous expenses, which are made up almost entirely of purchases of various articles, I presume, needed for the penitentiary. I would like to ask the minister what system is employed in the purchasing of these articles-whether tenders are called for. by whom they are purchased, whether instructions are given that they should be purchased in certain localities, and whether those who make the purchases are absolutely free to buy in the cheapest market.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The practice followed is that which has been in vogue ever since the penitentiaries were established. We call for tenders for everything.


Herbert Brown Ames: Are the tenders called for by public advertisement or only from a few persons?


Charles Fitzpatrick: By public advertisement. If my hon. friend will look at the newspapers for the month of June, he will see the advertisement calling for tenders for supplies for the penitentiaries.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Are there not a lot of articles which are purchased otherwise than by public tender?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think everything that can possibly be supplied is bought by public tender.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What does the advertisement cover?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Dry goods, groceries, coal, meat, bread, hardware, lumber, building material, leather-everything you can possibly expect to get in a penitentiary.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: And the contract always given to the lowest tenderer?


Charles Fitzpatrick: All I know is that the inspectors make a report to me and I approve of it. I do not think my hon. friend can point to a case where the lowest tender has not been accepted. I think there was one case where we were purchasing a superior quality of cloth. Our inspector says the rule is never departed from, that the lowest tender Is always accepted.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I understood that St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary was lighted by electricity.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It is now.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Do I understand that the whole village is also lighted by electricity?


Charles Fitzpatrick: We light the penitentiary and the street on which the penitentiary is situated, and which leads down to the station. That is for our own protection.
Mr. BERGERON! No other street?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No other street.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Are there not private citizens who are using the electric light and paying the government for it? I am not criticising, but merely asking for information?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No. The convent near by and some private persons asked if we would not supply electrictiy, but we thought it would be inconvenient to do so, and we did not entertain the application.
Kingston Penitentiary, $177,600.


Richard Blain: I find here an item of $62,400 for salaries and retiring allowances. Will the minister explain that?


Charles Fitzpatrick: In the left hand column of my report, at the top of page 115, my hon. friend will see that the total foi the warden, Protestant chaplain, Roman Catholic chaplain, accountant, engineer, &c., is $61,355.02.


Richard Blain: Was there an officer retired during the year ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes, a keeper, named Weir, who became physically incapable of performing his duties.


William Humphrey Bennett: I would like to call the attention of the minister to certain items in the Auditor General's Report, page M-21. Beardmore & Co., Toronto, leather, $1,024; The Canadian Locomotive Co., of Kingston, $1,408 ; Garneau & Son, Quebec, dry goods, $1,980 ; M. McLaughlin & Co., Toronto, flour, $4,585 ; Rathbun & Co., cement, $652 ; Swift & Co., Kingston, hard coal, $2,691; Were all these items tendered for ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Those supplied by Beardmore, Garneau and McLaughlin certainly were, because they are staple articles. The Kingston Locomotive Works supplied the castings used in connection with the new wing. There was no public tender asked for in that case but tenders were asked for by circular.


William Humphrey Bennett: Would not that be applicable to the Beardmore Co.?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, public tenders were asked for in the case of the leather, dry goods and flour supplies.


William Humphrey Bennett: The Beardmore people and the Canadian Locomotive Co., are well known as pretty strong Liberals. The latter is the company in which the hon, member for Kingston (Mr. Harty) is interested. Probably that accounts for their getting the contract.


Charles Fitzpatrick: My hon. friend is not quite fair. The Ogilvies are supplying flour for the current year.


William Humphrey Bennett: Take the case of the George Plunkett contract for coal. Kingston if, very much nearer the American side, yet Geo. Plunkett of Cobourg, whose politics arc very pronounced, got the contract. Were tenders called for ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes, by public advertisement.


William Humphrey Bennett: Who else tendered fof it ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: There were a great number of tenders for the coal. I am glad to hear my hon. friend criticise me for giving contracts to Liberals, because I have had a great deal of criticism for doing the reverse from other quarters. The McLaughlin Company has been represented to me as very strongly Conservative.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would like to come to the assistance of the hon. minister with regard to the coal in Montreal. All the coal there was ordered from T. F. Moore & Co., and there can be no danger of any reproach from the other side with regard to that firm. I presume that coal is tendered for by everybody at the same price ? In Montreal the important bodies, such as the municipal and school boards, generally divide their orders among the coal dealers. I think my hon. friend next year, even at the risk of getting reproaches from his own side, '*might follow that plan and not give the whole order to Moore & Co.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Those bodies to which my hon. friend refers have greater latitude than I have. They have not got a critical opposition to take care of them. (If we were to distribute the coal orders around among the different firms, we would be charged with not getting the lowest price.
Mr. (MONK. It is all the same price.


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, if it were, 1 might take care of some people that I cannot now. There was a firm which grievously complained that I could not give them any part of the coal contract ; hut the reason was their prices were not low enough.


Herbert Brown Ames: Were all the goods purchased from Hamilton Bros., who received a contract to the extent of $1,330, last year for the Kingston penitentiary and $1,670 for St. Vincent de Paul, the result of tenders.
' Mr. FITZPATRICK. Yes.


Herbert Brown Ames: What methods are used to know that the goods delivered are according to sample ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: We have a storekeeper at St. Vincent de Paul, who has been there many years. He weighs and measures the goods, and I have never heard any complaint as to his work not being done properly.


Herbert Brown Ames: Has he any samples or standards or descriptions which will enable him to make sure that the goods delivered are according to order ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: When the tenders are asked for, he has the samples and compares the goods delivered with the samples.


Herbert Brown Ames: Was the same process followed in the case of Lewis Bros., of Montreal, who figure very largely ? They supplied Kingston penitentiary with goods to the extent of $1,892 and St. Vincent de Paul $1,123.


Charles Fitzpatrick: These goods were all purchased after tenders were called.


Herbert Brown Ames: Will the hon. minister lay on the table the forms of tenders used ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I have not the slightest objection, they have grown sacred by long usage.


William Humphrey Bennett: How many tenders were received for the coal supplied by Geo. Plunkett, of Cobourg ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I cannot tell the number now but I know there were several.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When are the tenders received?


Charles Fitzpatrick: In June.


William Humphrey Bennett: Can the minister tell whether the coal was delivered from Cobourg?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The teuders required that the coal intended'for St. Vincent de Paul should be delivered at St. Vincent de Paul and that for Kingston at the wharf at Kingston.
Mr. BENNETT I am informed that Mr. Plunkett is not a coal merchant altogether, Mr. MONK.
but a hotelkeeper. We had a case of this kind yesterday, a publican-not necessarily a sinner-dealing in government supplies. I am informed also that Mr. Plunkett is not a dealer in a large way. Will the minister, when his estimates are next taken up, bring the tenders that were received? The amount involved is about $15,000-a considerable sum.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I will bring the tenders.


Herbert Brown Ames: Will the minister describe how the tenders are received and opened and the contract awarded?


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is information called for to-day that has not been asked for in the last eight years.


George Eulas Foster: This is a new House.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Evidently-a very
new House, in some respects. So far, as 1 know, tenders are advertised for in the newspapers. They are received by the inspectors and opened by them. A tabulated statement of the tenders is prepared and 1 sign the order to award the contract to the person recommended by the inspectors.


William Humphrey Bennett: I may say for the minister's information that attention was publicly directed to a number of these names figuring in the Kingston penitentiary accounts on the occasion of the recent Liberal convention in Toronto. I do not like to refer unkindly to the deceased-and I suppose we may say that the Ontario Liberal government is deceased-but during that convention, it was asserted in at least one newspaper that certain persons prominent in that convention -were interested in the supplies for Kingston penitentiary, and that this would account for their enthusiasm' at the convention.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Will the hon. gentleman specify ? I do not think that Gar-neau was there or Lewis Brothers.


William Humphrey Bennett: These were not connected with Kingston. I remember that there was a long list in the newspapers.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Let the hon. gentleman bring the newspapers when I bring the tenders.


William Humphrey Bennett: I will.
Penitentiaries-St. Vincent de Paul, $99,750


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is an increase of $400 there. It is to supply another pair of horses. It appears that the horses there have reached the age, one of eighteen years and the other twenty-one years, and it is about time we got rid of them.
Penitentiaries-Dorchester, $59,700.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is no increase there.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the warden?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Mr. J. A. Kirk.


George Eulas Foster: At one time in parliament. Mr. FITZPATRICK. I never saw him. Penitentiaries-Manitoba, $59,800.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There are several increases in this vote owing to the increase in population. W'e are obliged to have three more permanent guards at $600 a year, and one temporary guard at $500. There is an increase also in the maintenance of convicts, due to increase in the number. The population of the penitentiary is to-day 188-it has gone up even in the last few days-against 140 on June 30, 1903. The item of industries shows an increase, which is due to the fact that we need wood for burning brick to be used in building operations. There is an increase under the item of lands and buildings, because we are obliged to construct an additional wing for which we require material which will cost $3,500.
Penitentiaries-Ifegina Jail, $12,300.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is an increase of salaries to provide for the employment of a temporary turnkey from time to time as required. Maintenance of prisoners [DOT]and discharge expense is increased because the population is now forty-two, as against an average for last year of twenty-seven. There is an increase on account of industries because additional farm implements must be purchased.
Penitentiaries-Prince Albert Jail, $8,650.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is an increase in salaries because, owing to increase of population, an additional turnkey must be employed at $600 a year. I have decided to increase the jailer's salary by $100. He threatened to leave because the salary was too small. The population now is twenty-seven against a daily average for 1903-4 of fourteen. There is a. slight increase in the cost of uniforms, owing to the additional officer, and in maintenance of prisoners and the discharge expenses because of the increase of population.
Penitentiaries-Edmonton Jail, $8,000.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is a new institution. The expectation is that the building will be ready for occupation in July or August. It will have twenty-five cells for convicted males, seven for males awaiting trial, seven for females, and three for insane-a total of forty-two. This will provide, accommodation for prisoners from Alberta. At present there are twelve prisoners from Alberta in the jails at Regina and Prince Albert, and fifty-two more in the Northwest Mounted Police guardrooms. I expect this Edmonton jail will be the penitentiary for the new provinces when they are established.


George Eulas Foster: One of the new provinces.


Charles Fitzpatrick: One of the new provinces or the new province.


George Eulas Foster: What is the system of purchasing supplies for the binder twine industry at Kingston?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Two dealers in the hemp market in New York furnish quotations and the material is bought from New York, and sometimes from England.


George Eulas Foster: Who makes the purchases?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The penitentiary officials send the prices here and receive authority to make the purchases, and they make them direct.


George Eulas Foster: What was the result of that industry last year?


Charles Fitzpatrick: My hon. friend will find the details at page 5 appendix A of the report of the Department of Justice.
1. Twine manufactured :-The following is a summary of twine manufactured :
Pure manilla, 600 feet	415,925	lbs.Mixed manilla, 550 feet	125,490	"Rope yarn	
58,850	"
600,265 "
On the next page he will find the quantity sold.


George Eulas Foster: How does it work out as regards receipts and expenditures ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is a difference of opinion about that. The inspector considers that it works out satisfactorily in this respect, that receipts and expenditures about balance. We allow 30 cents a day for convict labour. It is about as much as the labour is worth, because they are not very expert nor desirous to learn.


George Eulas Foster: How do you make the sales ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Sales are made to farmers only. Since July 1, 1901, farmers may send in club orders, and the order must be signed by the farmers who use the twine, stating the kind of twine and the quantity they require. The price is fixed by the inspector, who takes into account the amount that he has been obliged to expend to produce the article, and at the same time he pays some attention to the price in the market. But they generally grade their price a little below the market price, about a cent or a fraction of a cent below it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We were told last year that they sold it at cost price.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It is a little below the market price. Where you have convict labour of this sort and allow anything at all for the labour, it is almost impossible to tell what the real cost to the government



is. There is also interest to be taken into [DOT]account, and the wear and tear of machinery.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood that was all figured out, and that convict labour was reckoned at fifty cents a day. Could the minister tell us how much they sold last year to farmers, and if any twine was sold to any other parties but farmers ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not a pound to any one but farmers.


George Eulas Foster: Was the whole output sold ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, during 1903-4 we sold 401,557 pounds. We had on hand June 30, 1904, 522,680 pounds. Since July 1 we have sold 209,705 pounds.


George Eulas Foster: That makes 600,000 pounds that you have sold. How much did you make last year ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The total quantity offered for sale in 1903-4 was 924,237 pounds. Quantity manufactured in 1903-4, 541,415 pounds. So long as we have to observe the rule laid down by the House of selling to farmers only, we will have this result every year. We have now 382,822 pounds on hand, but there is an order of the House that we must sell to farmers at the price fixed. The proper way to do would be to dispose of it by public auction.


Mr. SCHAFFNER.: Is there any particular time when the orders have to be in from tiie farmers ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No, we sell to farmers at any time.


Mr. COCHRANE.: There is an impression amongst the farmers in our section of the country, that unless the orders are in at a certain time they cannot be supplied ; and that time is so early in the season that the farmers are not in a position to advance the money a month or two before they want the twine.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Orders may come in at any time.


Edward Cochrane: The notices given in the newspapers would not bear out that statement.


Charles Fitzpatrick: My information is that the difficulty my hon. friend refers to is caused by the fact that about two years ago we had only a certain limited quantity of 650-feet-to-the-pound twine, and that one class was exhausted, and when orders for lit came in the applicants had to take the ordinary run of twine.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the whole twine business has this defect. Last year or the year before the surplus on hand was sold to a private party at five cents a pound, while in round figures you are asking ten cents a pound from the farmers. Now twine was offered at about the same price as you could Mr. FITZPATRICK.
get it' in any country store. There was surely no inducement for farmers to send for it if they could buy it at a hardware store as they required it and used it up, they would prefer to do that than to send to the penitentiary for it weeks before they needed it. They would naturally go to the most convenient place to get it. But it is believed, and I think there were grounds for the belief, that the twine was not sold to the farmers at cost price. Add the one cent per pound, or the fraction of a cent that is added to cover any loss, to the price of the raw material, and the way it was turned out by others-all that left the impression, though the government states that they sold twine just a little below what others were selling it at, that in fact they sold it at about the same price. We were informed also from other sources that it was not the intention of the government to become competitors with others who were in that business, or to sell below them, because if they did they were destroying their market.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Whjit my hon. friend says illustrates the difficulty we have in dealing with this business. We have a mill that produces 400 tons. I understand that is only a very small fraction of the total quantity required in Canada. Now we cannot attempt to regulate the market with such an output as that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But you can sell the twine.


Charles Fitzpatrick: 
Richard Blain: Can the hon. minister tell me what kind of twine is that which he has on hand ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.


Edward Cochrane: I think you are manufacturing a class of twine that the farmers do not use as extensively as they used to.


Charles Fitzpatrick: My figures only go to June 30 : Pure manilla, 600 feet to the pound; mixed manilla, 500 feet to the pound.


Edward Cochrane: The hon. minister has an inspector of binder twine, and that gentleman ought to know the kind of twine that is mostly used by farmers. He should get that information, and the penitentiary should make the kind of twine that the farmers use now. One class of twine that was formerly used, the farmers do not find it expedient to use now, and if that gentleman would have the class of twine made in the penitentiary that is generally used in the Dominion, the hon. minister would not find so much op hand.
Mr. FITZPATRICK, Thai; gentleman] does report, and the inspector tells me that we act on his report.


Edward Cochrane: Does he report upon that line ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. This whole business of manufacturing binder twine is a charge oh the public. In my mind, there is no doubt about that.


George Eulas Foster: How many men do you employ ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Forty convicts out of a present population of 448.


George Eulas Foster: You do not give employment to 10 per cent of the prisoners.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not 10 per cent.


Mr. W. WRIGHT.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if the farmers know that this twine is to be purchased there ? I venture to say that there is not one-quarter of our farmers who know that they can purchase twine any cheaper there than they can anywhere else.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friend will take up the report of the Minister of Justice, and look at page 0, he will see the form of circular that is sent out all over the country, in addition to which there is an advertisement published in the newspapers.


Edward Cochrane: Which papers ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I cannot give the list.


Edward Cochrane: I am not talking from a political point of view. These advertisements should be published in the small papers. There are a great many people who 16i
do not take the papers from Toronto, but who require binder twine. If the local papers had a chance to publish this advertisement it would produce better results.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I understand that weekly local papers are chiefly used for this purpose.


An hon. MEMBER.: In Ontario ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes.


Mr. CLARE.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he can give us the factory cost of these twines ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The figures I gave a moment ago as representing the price at which these twines are sold, are supposed to represent practically the cost of production, but I imagine that if you take into account the initial cost of the plaut, the loss at which it had been run for several years, depreciation and one thing and another, you would find that we are paying a great deal more than we are charging for our twine. However, that is not the opinion of our officials. Here is what is represented to be the cost of the fibre for two years : Manilla fibre, January, 1903, $8.75 per cwt.; 1904, $9.25 per cwt.; average cost, 1903, $8.70 per cwt.; 1904, $9.50 ; sisal, average cost, 1903, $7.77 ; 1904, $7.45.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if there were not quite a number of complaints from the farmers who got this twine last season about the inferiority of it ?	i


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not last season. There were complaints before, but not last season. We will occasionally have a complaint or two from people who do not want to pay their debts, but we have had three hundred letters from farmers in different parts of the country commending the twine.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I do not wish to get into a discussion as to whether the parties who made these complaints were able to pay their debts or not, because I know that the people with whom I was speaking were perfectly willing and able to pay their bills.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Where were the complaints from-Prince Edward Island ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Yes. They usually pay their bills down there.


Charles Fitzpatrick: And they send men up here who do that.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: We always try to do that, too. There were really some serious complaints from some of our most reputable farmers, who said that the twine knotted and broke, and they have made complaints directly to the department about it.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Is my hon. friend quite sure that these complaints were made in respect to the twine sold during last season ?	,


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I understand so. People claimed to have a great deal of twine which they tried to use, but which they finally had to abandon and were compelled to buy other twine.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The inspector, who is more familiar with the details of this matter than I am, says he has no recollection of any complaint during last season from Prince Edward Island. We did have a few complaints from Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, but none from Prince Edward Island.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I will recall the name to the hon. minister of one of the parties to whom I refer. Mr. Lee, of Victoria, sent in one complaint.


Richard Blain: The fact remains that the sale of binder twine direct to the farmer has been a decided success. My hon. friend (Mr. Fitzpatrick) shakes his head at that, but the facts bear out my statement. We find by the record that a few years ago twine was sold to supporters of the government without any tender at a very low price, and the complaint that was made in the House was that the farmers did not have an opportunity of purchasing the twine. Taking up the Auditor General's Report for this year, I find that since the new resolution was adopted by the House almost 500 farmers in Canada ordered direct from the penitentiary and secured then- twine. I pointed out last year and the year before that in my humble opinion the penitentiary was manufacturing too many kinds of twine, that what the farmers want is pure manilla twine. That is about the only kind that is sold generally, in Ontario, at leask.


Charles Fitzpatrick: We manufacture manilla and mixed manilla.


Richard Blain: Mixed is not a pure manilla twine. It is sisal and manilla mixed. The farmers do not wish to use that kind of twine. The demand is for a pure manilla twine, and if the Kingston penitentiary were to manufacture a pure manilla twine and put it on the market at cost, or a little over cost, it is useless for any man to stand up in this House and say that the farmers would not purchase it. My hon. friend has already stated that the amount of twine manufactured at the Kingston penitentiary is very small in comparison with the consumption. I would like to ask the hon. minister what [DOT] amount of twine remains unsold at the penitentiary at this moment ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: On June 30, 1904, we had on hand:-
Pure manilla, 600 feet to the pound, 320,085 lbs.
Mixed manilla, 550 feet to the pound, 120,900 lbs.
Of that we have sold since that date:- Mr. FITZPATRICK.
Of pure manilla, 189,400 lbs.
Of mixed manilla, 17,745 lbs.
My information from the inspector is that we have manufactured about 20 per cent of mixed manilla, but that the greater part, 80 per cent of it, is pure manilla, the intention being to satisfy a demand for that sort of twine which the inspector says exists. It seems to me that my hon. friend will be able to judge, when I gave the figures at which we sold, whether we ought at these figures to have been able to dispose of this twine. He has had more experience with this matter than I have. My impression is that these figures were lower than the market prices ruling at the time.


David Henderson: Referring to the matter brought up by the hon. member from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Lefurgey) as to the quality of the twine, I may say that in going among the farmers-and I think that other members here have met with the same experience-I find there is throughout the country a prejudice against the twine that is manufactured at Kingston. There is only a limited amount made there and consumed in the country, and when I ask farmers why they do not buy Kingston twine they tell me that the American twine is far better. It is unfortunate that we have not in this country a sufficiently strong Canadian sentiment to enable us successfully to put upon the market an article such as the twine to which we are now referring. I have heard the Finance Minister (Hon. Mr. Fielding) within the last two years express, similar views, and regret the fact that Canadian sentiment did not uphold Canadian products. Our people buy things because they are foreign. I will venture to say that 75 per cent of the farmers of this country will buy American twine because it is American. They have an impression that because it comes from the .other side it is better, and the government of the day is largely responsible for this lack of Canadian sentiment. The whole policy of the present government is to cultivate a sentiment amongst the people of this country in favour of purchasing goods that are produced in other countries, and to lessen the' purchase of Canadian goods. I attribute very largely the feeling that the penitentiary binder twine is inferior just to this lack of Canadian sentiment. People are -willing to buy American twine because it comes from the other side on the principle that far away fields are green, and it is felt that if it is only brought from some other country it must of necessity be better. In the section of country in which I live a large amount of American twine is used. They use chiefly what is known as Plymouth. I asked one man : Why do you buy this Plymouth, and he said :	It is so
much better. Farmers will not use the penitentiary twine. For anything I know it is equal in all respects to the imported

twine and quite possible this very twine that is bought by our farmers as American twine ig Canadian twine. I do not doubt that in many instances that it is a fact, because our Canadian factories are making twine, shipping- it across to the United States and selling it to the very men who supply twine to dealers in this country, and I have no doubt that it goes there, comes back here as American twine and takes the market much better, selling as American twine in competition with the Kingston article, although it is of purely Canadian manufacture. It is as I said the lack of a good Canadian sentiment that interferes very materially with the reputation and sale of the Kingston twine.


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I am sorry for Halton.


David Henderson: The government today by their whole policy of preferential tariff and free trade in twine, &c., are cultivating that lack of sentiment, and until some change is made in the policy of the government I am afraid these difficulties will crop up from time to time.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I would like the hon. member to tell me how to cultivate that sentiment which will induce farmers to purchase our twine. I think my hon. friend ought to cultivate the sentiment in his own constituency, and instead of making that fine speech, which is addressed exclusively to me, if he would go to his own constituency and tell his electors what they ought to do in the premises,' he would be rendering a great service, and I am quite sure we will all appreciate his efforts.


David Henderson: Yes, I have been (endeavouring to do that all along the line, but I confess that when I have the whole force and policy of the government against me I find great difficulty and what I complain of is that the government will not change their policy. If the government would join me in the principles I advocate, we could very soon change that sentiment for the better interest of the country and of the Kingston binder twine manufactory. I would like the Minister of Justice to join me in advocating a better Canadian sentiment and to shape the policy of the government along lines that will invite people to use Canadian goods, Canadian cottons, Canadian woollens, binder twine, binders and everything that you can think of, Canadian. Let us cultivate a purely Canadian sentiment. If you go to the United States and enter a shop you will see that if a piece of cotton is laid on the counter, probably ninety-nine out of one hundred ladies will buy that piece of American cotton because it is American. Will the Minister of Justice undertake to say that there ts the same sentiment among our Canadian people? It is a matter of extreme regret to me and we must adopt some policy in this
country that will produce a better Canadian sentiment.


Charles Fitzpatrick: * I am not in woollens or cottons or ladies furnishings ; I 'am in binder twine and if my hon. friend will undertake to tell me how I can sell my binder twine I shall be very glad. I cannot deal with vague generalities about Canadian sentiment; I have to get back to binder twine. If he will help me to sell my binder twine I will be satisfied.


David Henderson: Just create the sentiment.


Charles Fitzpatrick: And the taste for ladies furnishings.


David Henderson: Give the Canadian market a taste for twine made in Canada, impose such protection as will preserve our market for Canadian twine, and inside of five years you will have such a strong sentiment in favour of Canadian twine that I undertake to say there will be no question about the quality of the twine you produce.


Richard Blain: On the question of Kingston twine I wish to express my opinion. I think that the twine manufactured there is good and the farmers of this country have no ground of complaint whatever. The twine coming into my own county is generally appreciated by people of both political parties, if you -wish to discuss the-matter from a political standpoint. But what I say is that there must be something wrong in the department somewhere if the twine is not sold. I do not wish to complain- jjerhaps 1 would not be in a position to point out where the changes should be- but I think that if the Kingston penitentiary is manufacturing good twine, as in my' opinion it is, the situation would be improved by manufacturing only pure manilla twine, abandoning the manufacture of the other kind altogether. Then I think that parliament would endorse the minister in spending some money to ensure the sale of the twine direct to the farmer. There must be something at fault in the department somewhere or this quantity of twine which is very small in proportion to the quantity used, would be sold every year. In view of the fact 1hat an enormous quantity of twine is used in Canada, there is something wrong somewhere, or else the twine would be sold every year. I may say that in my own county a great many orders have been sent in during the last three years, and they have not been supplied, for the reason that the department stated that they were sold out of pure manilla twine.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is quite right -the G50 feet twine.


Richard Blain: A few counties would consume every pound of twine almost, manufactured in the Kingston penitentiary, but my hon. friend is not manufacturing the kind the farmers want.


Charles Fitzpatrick: 
Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Might I ask what has been done in reference to the claims that were made against the government on account of poor twine ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The inspector tells me that every claim that has been put in has been satisfactorily adjusted, and that there is not a single claim now pending.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I understood from the parties who spoke to me a few months ago that the claim that they had put in had not at that time been paid.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Would my hon. friend give me the name of the party ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Mr. Lee, of Victoria.


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon friend will send us a note we will look into it. i want to say there is a prejudice all over this country against prison-made goods, and that prejudice applies to binder twine and operates to the detriment of the factory. It is a prejudice that is fostered in some directions probably by the labour unions. Of course, we think that our twine is good. I am so advised at all events, and I see no reason why in the interest of Canada at large, our twine should not be bought. After all, this is the people's factory ; the people of Canada are flaying for this. It is an attempt honestly made by the government to protect the farmers of Canada against the combine outside; and even if it does cost a little to keep it going, it seems to me that the people of the country ought to appreciate the fact that we are making this effort.


David Henderson: The hon. minister has told us that this is an effort to protect the farmers. I would like him to tell me how he is going to protect the farmers by putting his twine on the market at a price just a shade below the price fixed by the great American trust. It is well known that the cost of twine is not what fixes the price; it is just what the great American trust chooses to fix it at ; and yet the minister fixes his price just. within a shade of the combine price. Under these circumstances, I do not think that he is offering much protection to the farmer. The way to fix the price would be upon the basis of the actual cost of the material and labour. I believe the best twine made in the country is not pure manilla. I do not think the farmers want pure manilla. They want a twine composed of about 60 per cent manilla and 40 per cent sisal. The quantity of pure manilla twine used in this country is quite small as compared with the mixed twine. If you take 60 per cent of the cost of a pound of manilla fibre and 40 per cent of the cost of a pound of sisal, and remember that about 20 per cent of the whole Mr. BLAIN.
thing is coarse oil, a cheaper article, you will bring the cost of the binder twine very much below the figure which the minister gives. That would be the true way to fix the price if you wanted to protect the farmer, and not simply to shade below the price of the combine.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is a good deal of (his twine sold in my section of the country; but the farmers got a bad impression of it because at first they could not get the twine they wanted, and later on it was sold to a private dealer for about half the money they paid. For instance, the farmer paid 10c a pound and the private dealer bought the balance for 5c, and the impression got abroad that the department were selling at too high a price to the farmer, and were losing on what was sold to the private dealer. With regard to the price, it is generally conceded that whatever the raw material costs, binder twine can be made at a fair profit for about lc a pound ; so that if the raw material cost an average of Sic. a pound, the government could sell it at 94c and have a fair profit. I would suggest that if the government would allow a small commission to some person to go around among the farmers and take orders, they would sell a very much larger quantity of twine. The complaint of parties who took orders in my section was that they practically got nothing in the shape of a commission that would be a fair compensation for their labour, or they could have sold a great deal more of it. That might be done for the benefit of both the department and the farmers.
Some resolutions reported.



Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: I move that the House do now adjourn. My hon. friend yesterday asked me for some information in regard to the Transportation Commission. The Commission to-day is composed of Mr. Robert Reford, of Montreal ; Mr. Edward C. Fry, of Quebec, and Mr. J. H. Ashdown, of Winnipeg. It has not made a report. I think it made an interim report last year in regard to St. John. Mr. Reford, I am sorry to say, has tendered his resignation on account of illness. We have asked him to reconsider his determination, and have not heard from him since.


George Eulas Foster: What business will be taken up to-morrow ?


Romuald-Charlemagne Laurier: The resolution of the Minister of Justice with regard to the appointment of judges to the Railway Commission, then the Census Bill, and then Supply, taking up the Public Works estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 6.05 p.m.

[Stage Direction]
Friday, February 3, 1905.