1905-06-16

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
['I think it does fully answer the purpose, and that the amendment is an important one.']
Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: We are not ready to go on with the estimates for a few moments, and in the meantime we will take some Bills.
Progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
Consideration of amendments made by the Senate to Bill (No. 7) respecting the inspection and sale of seeds.-Mr. Fisher.
Mr. FISHER.: These amendments are merely verbal. The first one is that before ' ergot of rye ' the words are inserted ' and from the sclerotia known as ' ; the second amendment is to leave out the word 'screenings ' and insert the words 'not absolute]v clean.'
Amendments read the first and second times, and agreed to.


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS ACT-AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 132) to amend the Government Railways Act.- Mr. Emmerson.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: What Bill is this ?


Mr. MONK.: 


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: This is the amendment to the Railway Act which provides running rights for the Intercolonial Railway over the Grand Trunk Railway from Montreal to Coteau, and over the Canada Atlantic Railway from Coteau junction to Parry Sound.
When this Bill w'as up for consideration before, it w'as suggested that possibly a claim might be made against the government for the right that we are now taking to run over the Canada Atlantic, without reference to the fact whether wre used that right or not. It wras suggested that that point ought to be made absolutely clear. I therefore move to reconsider Section 5, and to amend it by adding the following proviso :
Provided that no compensation shall be payable for such running powers unless and until the same are actually exercised, and then only for such exercise.


Mr. BARKER.: I would suggest the words ' so far as they may be excused ' instead of the words ' for such exercise.'


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and Bill reported as amended.
Mr. FITZPATRICK moved the third reading of the Bill.
Robert Laird Borden: I think the Amendment which has been moved by the Minister of Justice answers the objections which were raised on this side of the House.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That was the intention.


Robert Laird Borden: I think it does fully answer the purpose, and that the amendment is an important one.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['I do not think there ought to be any difficulty whatever about postponing.']
Robert Laird Borden: The Minister of Justice mentioned the other evening on the motion to adjourn that he proposed to make some statement with regard to the Kent-ville rifle range. I do not think that lias yet been made.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I thought I ought to wait for the hon. member for Victoria and Haliburton (Mr. Sam. Hughes) and the Minister of Militia to be present, because I want to refer to the matter from the point of view of the Department of Justice.


Mr.   I@: Perhaps the Minister of Justice would have no objection to sending me a copy of his statement if it is prepared.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not at all.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House w-ent into Committee of Supply.

Ottawa city-bridges over the Rideau river, the slides and the Rideau canal and approaches thereto-ordinary repairs, $7,000.
['Not at all.']
Mr. BRODEUR.: This vote is to provide for the usual necessary repairs to the bridges of the city of Ottawa and the approaches thereto, the maintenance of which was assumed by the government under authority of an Order in Council passed in 1885. This is the usual sum.


Robert Laird Borden: What are the bridges?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The union bridge between Ottawa and Hull, the bridge over the timber slides at the Chaudiere, the Maria street bridge, Sapper's bridge, the Dufferin bridge and approaches thereto, and the maintenance of Wellington street between Bank and the Dufferin bridge.	,


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: What is the nature of the repairs?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The ordinary maintenance of these bridges.


Robert Laird Borden: How much was spent last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: $7,101.37, divided as follows : Chaudiere bridges, $2,553.53 ; St. Patrick streeet, $60.48; Wellington street, Dufferin and Sapper's bridges, $4,783.43 ; hardware, stone, lumber and cement, $253.93


Robert Laird Borden: One would suppose that after the bridges were put in thoroughly first-class condition, so large an amount would not be necessary yearly for repairs. I am speaking, of course, without any special knowledge of the subject, but merely from the impression I would have with respect to such a matter.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed by the officers of the department that this is generally the sum that has to be expended every year on these works.
Ottawa city-Dufferin and Sapper's bridges over the Rideau canal, Hull slides and Union bridge and roadway approaches, repairs, additions, &c., $11,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is asked to make provision for continuing the works of alteration and addition to Dufferin and Sapper's bridges, the roadway, approaches, and sidewalks, the estimate being submitted by the chief engineer. The amount expended last year was $7,000.
Bryson bridge-reconstruction of bridge and approaches, $15,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is towards the work of reconstruction and repairs of bridge over the North Channel of the Ottawa. The work will be done on condition that the Quebec government and the municipalities interested will maintain the bridge at their sole expense.


Robert Laird Borden: Is that agreement expressed in some document or is it a mere understanding ?
Mi'. BRODEUR. The work will not be let unless the municipalities and the provincial government undertake to maintain it.


Robert Laird Borden: It would be desirable to have that agreement expressed formally in a document or communication, so that there will he no question hereafter as to the obligation.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is the intention. Nothing will be done unless that agreement is made.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is the government responsible for the repairs of all these bridges should any accident occur ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, that is not the policy of the department.


Robert Laird Borden: But it might be the policy of the courts.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that the question has been before the courts and that the position taken by the department was sustained.


Robert Laird Borden: The government is liable by statute for the negligence of its employees on a public work. The question would he whether this is a public work in the meaning of the statute. That statute has not been repealed, so far as I am aware.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It was decided three years ago in the case of McHugh and the Queen.


Robert Laird Borden: Does that depart from any previous line or decision ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: No.


Mr. HENDERSON.: What bridge in the vicinity of Ottawa is known as the Aberdeen bridge ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is the bridge under the control of the Improvement Commission and not under the government. I think it is the bridge which goes to Rideau Hall. There are three of these bridges, and one of them is called the Aberdeen bridge.


David Henderson: I understood that this bridge is not properly lighted and is a menace to the travelling public. As a contributor to the Ottawa Improvement Commission, could not the government bring some pressure upon that commission to cause the bridge to he properly lighted. Perhaps I was mistaken in speaking of the Aberdeen bridge. The bridge I mean is the Alexandra bridge.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is a Canadian Pacific Railway bridge. It was built by a private corporation which was operating the Ottawa, Gatineau and Pontiac Railway and the Pacific Junction Railway. Afterwards those two roads and the bridge itself

were transferred to the Canadian Pacific Railway.


David Henderson: The bridge I refer to is the bridge from Nepean Point, which was constructed by a private corporation, but to the cost of which the parliament of Canada contributed very considerably, and I think also the city of Ottawa. Could the government not urge the people in charge to make that bridge perfectly safe by having it properly lighted ?	.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is a matter which does not pertain to the government at all, because it is entirely under the control of the Canadian Pacific Railway, subject to the regulations of the Railway Commission.


David Henderson: But it is not purely a railway bridge. It has carriage drives and walks for pedestrians, so that the railway practically does not make use' of the entire bridge. It is for the protection of pedestrians and others, who have occasion to cross during the night, that I appeal for better lighting ; and as the government has put a very large sum into that bridge, it should have some control, if not over the railway portion of the bridge at least over the portion which accommodates the general public. The government is sufficiently interested to ask those in charge to have it properly lighted and made suitable for the purposes for which the government intended it when it granted a large sum of money in aid of its construction.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The bridge is not at all under the control of the government. The government voted the usual subsidy for its construction, but the accommodation for pedestrians and vehicles was one of the conditions exacted by the city of Ottawa, and it would' be for the city of Ottawa to see that the pedestrian and carriage ways are properly lighted. I have no objection, however, to present to the Canadian Pacific Railway authorities the criticism of my hon. friend.
Battle river bridge at Battleford-new concrete substructure and protection of approaches with close piling, $13,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the reconstruction of the new southern abutment. The work is under contract. The amount of the contract for placing the bridge in serviceable condition is 838,426, and we add 10 per cent, or say $4,574 for superintendence and contingencies, making a total of $43,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Is this an old bridge that you are re-modelling, or are you erecting a new concrete substructure ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to replace the old, decayed timber with concrete.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it the repair of an old bridge, or the demolition of a bridge and the construction of a new one ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The demolition of the existing substructure and replacing it with a concrete substructure.


Robert Laird Borden: The contract has been let ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes, to John Foley, of Ottawa, after tenders publicly called for.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it intended that this bridge shall be maintained by the Dominion, or will it pass into the control of one of the new provinces ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is intended that the new province in which it is situated shall maintain the bridge.


Mr. BERGERON.: I often hear it stated, in the course of ministerial explanations in supply, that a certain work is under contract for a certain amount and 10 per cent is added, apparently for supervision. What does that mean ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: When a work is decided upon, an estimate is made of the cost, an allowance of 10 per cent being made for superintendence and contingencies. Then tenders are called for. In this particular case the tenders had been called for and a contract has been made, and the 10 per cent for superintendence and contingencies is calculated on the contract price. But this 10 per cent does not form part of the contract ;-it is work to be done by the department in seeing to it that the work of the contractor is properly carried on. This is not paid for by the contractor but by the department.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: So, when a contract is for $40,000, that means that the public must pay $44,000 ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: Do contingencies and superintendence really cost 10 per cent ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Not always, but that is added in order that there may be enough to carry on the work.


Uriah Wilson: In public buildings constructed by the Department of Public Works is the same allowance made ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Uriah Wilson: I understand that private individuals get this work done for 5 per cent, including preparation of the plans and supervision of the work.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In these public works the item of contingencies and superintendence usually costs less than 10 per cent, but my hon. friend (Mr. Uriah Wilson) will see that it is better to estimate 10 per cent than to be obliged to come back to parliament for a vote of a few dollars to make up for a short estimate.


Uriah Wilson: But I do not see why this item should cost double in the case of a public work than what is costs in the

case of a work done for private parties. And I should think that large public works should cost a smaller percentage for superintendence and contingencies than a smaller works do. I should think it would be better for the department to estimate nearer the actual cost and not ask parliament for more money than is necessary. I know of one building for which the architect asked only 5 per cent for drawing plans and looking after the work. And in another case the charge was only 2| per cent.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: X cannot dispute the facts within my hon. friend's (Mr. Uriah Wilson's) knowledge. But I will call his attention to the fact that the fees ordinarily charged by architects in the supervision of works is 7* per cent.


Uriah Wilson: For drawing the plans ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For drawing the plans, making specifications and supervising the work. But this does not include travelling expenses for such a work as this, and 21 per cent does not seem to be excessive to provide for that, especially when the work is at some distance from the home of the resident engineer.


Uriah Wilson: My information is that 5 per cent is the ordinary charge made by architects for this work of making plans and supervising work, and I should think that for a great public work, the percentage should be even less. I can understand that something would depend upon where the work is to be done, as it would be more difficult to oversee works at a distance. But, as I understand it, the Public Works Department have on every job of this kind a clerk of works, an officer who seems to be an ornamental addition to the staff. A public building was constructed in a riding near my own, and the clerk of works got $1,500 for overseeing, and there was an architect besides. This, it seems to me, is a sheer waste of money and ought not to be continued.


Robert Laird Borden: I had not supposed that the ordinary fee of an architect was so large as the minister states. I have not had very much experience, but I was under the impression that the fee for supervision, including the preparation of plans, was not more than 5 per cent.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that it is 71 per cent, for drawing the plans, making the specifications and supervising the work-that is the ordinary tariff.


Robert Laird Borden: Has it always been so high ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy minister informs me that Mr. Ewart, the chief architect has always told him that it was 71 per cent- that is, 21 per cent for supervision and 5 per cent for drawing the plans and making specifications.


Samuel Barker: I have had something to do with works within a few years and have never known more than 5 per cent to be charged by an architect for preparing plans and specifications, and supervision; and it is very frequently done at 4 per cent, though I admit that 5 per cent is the usual charge.
I know that in general specifications it is quite usual to allow 10 per cent for architect's work and contingencies, that is, to cover any possible errors and oversight; but I never knew that more than 5 per cent was taken from an architect's fees.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the board of works not an architect in the department who is capable of undertaking this work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are officers in the department here, but they are not supposed to go and attend to the execution of the work itself. In the case under consideration, for instance, it would be impossible to send a man from here to Battle-ford to supervise the work.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that the architect's fees on the public library being erected in Ottawa are 5 per cent for plans and superintendence, 21 per cent for the preparation of the plans, and 21 per cent for superintendence. I am so informed,
I have no personal knowledge. If that is so, it is certainly not in accordance with what is understood to be the practice of the department, and it might be worth while for the minister to make some inquiries and find out whether or not there is some misapprehension.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is no doubt that 5 per cent is charged in some cases. Doctors charge some people higher than they do others, and the same with lawyers. But I was speaking of the tariff of fees charged by architects, which I am informed, is 71 per cent. But I will call the minister's attention to that.


Uriah Wilson: Is it the custom of the department to have a clerk of works, and a local architect besides to supervise the erection of public buildings ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is a resident engineer who is supposed to look after the execution of a work; besides, there is a local inspector who is there every day. The resident engineer has a certain district under his supervision in which he has to look over the construction of all public works. But we have to employ the services of a local inspector in each place.


Uriah Wilson: In this case, I presume, it is the local official of the department who has a certain district, to look after. But is it not the custom to have a local architect as well ? I have a case in my mind where there was a local architect and a clerk of works, and I fail to see the need of a clerk of works there at all. The local architect is paid to look after it, and

lie should suffice if he gives proper attention to his duties. I am afraid that the government take advantage of these occasions to give local friends a job.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: According to my information, the department finds it necessary to have a resident engineer to direet the work generally. He has under his charge all the works in his district, possibly ten or twenty. Besides, he has occasionally to draw plans and make reports to the department. Moreover, we require to have on the ground a man to supervise the work from day to day.


Uriah Wilson: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, we have no local architect in each place.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who is the resident engineer at Battleford ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Paul Paradis, who lives at Calgary, 300 or 400 miles away. He has charge of all the public works in the Northwest Territories, including colonization roads.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How much do you pay this supervisor of works ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: From .$2.50 a day to ?3, according to the local prices.


Uriah Wilson: What qualifications has he ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: He should be a competent man for the class of work he has to supervise.


Uriah Wilson: Does the minister always succeed in getting men who know something about the business ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It sometimes happens that we do not obtain the most competent men.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Then do you have some one else to supervise the local officer, to see whether he does his work well ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The resident engineer. He goes and visits all these works" occasionally, once a month or twice a month.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is there not a danger that he may become too friendly with the contractor ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I suppose the law gov-, eras those cases.
Shellmouth bridge over Assiniboine river,


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the erection of a new bridge at Shellmouth in the province of Manitoba. No work has been done yet. the plans are being prepared. Mr. U. WILSON.


Uriah Wilson: This is an ordinary bridge over the river ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes. There is an old wooden bridge built in 18S7, which is now in a dilapidated condition and bevond repair.	-


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Should not that be' done by the local government ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is an interprovincial bridge between the province of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories.
Dominion traffic bridges throughout Canada, including approaches, $5,000.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to know what these bridges are referred to in this item, whether in the Northwest Territories or elsewhere.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The bridges under the control of the government in Ontario and Quebec are:	Des Joachims bridge, Ottawa river ; Moisie Post Road, north shore St. Lawrence; Ottawa, Maria street (Laurier) bridge ; Chaudifire bridges ; Sappers' and Dufferin bridges ; Portage du Port bridge, Ottawa river ; York bridge, Grand river. And in the Northwest Territories :	Battleford bridge. Battle river 4
Edmonton bridge, Saskatchewan river ; Calgary bridge, Bow river ; Lethbridge, Belly river; Maeleod bridge, Old Man's river.


Samuel Barker: What bridge have you on the Grand river ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: At York.


Samuel Barker: Why do you build across the Grand river ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I understand that the river was dammed at Dunnville by the Department of Railways and - Canals. This bridge has been considered as being part of that work.


Mr. HERRON.: What is the nature of the repairs on the Belly river bridge ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The department has no information that any repairs will be needed this year. I was simply giving the names of the bridges to which these sums can be applied in case of necessity.


John Herron: The three bridges referred to are all practically new steel bridges.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They require some painting, and I think it is important that these steel bridges should be painted occasionally. This is to provide for any works that are needed.


Uriah Wilson: I am still in the dark as to the principles governing the action of the government in this matter- what streams shall be built over by the government. I asked the policy of the government in reference to this the other night, and the best answer that I got was their

predecessors used to do it. I think there ought to be some deiinite policy as to what rivers you should build over and for what reasons. It certainly is not because they are navigable rivers, because I know navigable rivers over which the municipalities have to maintain the bridges. I cannot understand why in certain localities you build bridges and in others you do not.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: These are interprovincial bridges and bridges in the Northwest Territories.
Mr. 1TRIAH WILSON. I refer to ones that are not interprovincial.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In some cases these rivers are under the control of the Dominion government.


Uriah Wilson: Are not all navigable streams under the control of the Dominion government ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The municipalities have a certain control over rivers which are entirely in one province, but when we come to build them over interprovincial rivers the rule is different.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose if there has been any system in the past it is that the Dominion government build interprovincial bridges, and besides that has constructed bridges in the Northwest Territories, because there is not a sufficient sum placed at the disposal of the territorial government for that purpose. These bridges were built by tiie Dominion government because that portion of the country was in a territorial condition. There will be a modification of that no doubt now that the new provinces are established. My friend (Mr. Uriah Wilson) desires to know whether, apart from these two principles upon which the government has been proceeding, any other bridges have been constructed partly or wholly by the government ; and if so, on what principle the government has acted in assisting in the building of any bridges that do not fall within the two categories to which I have referred.
'Mr. BRODEUR. There are no other bridges except the ones I have mentioned in the Territories or those who are interprovincial. Besides these there might be some other bridges which are necessitated by works of the Dominion government, as the bridges over canals. These bridges have to be kept up by the Dominion government, because they have been necessitated by the work of the government.


Robert Laird Borden: I remember one instance that came within my own observation where the government had altered the course of a stream by works connected v7ith the Rideau canal, making necessary a very much larger and more expensive bridge than would have been required if the stream had been left in its old position.
Apart from that, is there any other principle ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.
*Colonization roads-Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, $25,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is proposed to be used towards opening or improving colonization roads for the purpose of enabling settlers to take lands which they otherwise could not-reach. A road is to be opened up and improved from a point near Sprague, on the southern boundary line of Manitoba, a few miles north on the line followed by incoming immigrants ; one between Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg ; one from a point on the Prince Albert branch of the Canadian Northern Railway, west of Er-vood ; and one is to be constructed from the bead of Lesser Slave lake to the Peace river. The latter is the most expensive. The total estimated cost of these works will be 325,000.


Mr. INGRAM.: Why is not the usual practice carried out of handing the money over to the territorial government and allowing them to spend it ? That is what the minister agreed to do last year, if I am not mistaken.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The chief engineer does not remember such a promise being made. Take the case of Athabaska ; I do not think the territorial government has jurisdiction over Athabaska. I think it is entirely under the control of the federal government.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is it the intention of the government to continue building colonization roads in these Territories after they become provinces ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Not after they 'are erected into provinces. Then they will have to padle their own canoe.


Andrew B. Ingram: Last year the objection w as that if the goyernment has any money7 to expend in an improvement of this kind, they should'hand the money over to the Northwest Territories government as they do with other money's, and that was understood at that time.


John Herron: One of the bridges referred to in this estimate was built in the last two years by the Northwest government. The money is supplied from here to the Northwest government. That applies also to the bridge at Lethbridge, which, I suppose, comes under the same heading.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not know7 whether tiiat would be advisable with respect to all of these, although, of course, there would be a change as soon -as these provinces are erected. I do not know whether it w7ould be advisable when the parliament votes money for a special work that this money should be spent by a body not under the



control of this government. In my opinion, it would be very much better for this parliament to control the expenditure of Its own money, especially when a particular work is mentioned in the vote, as in this case. In my opinion, it would be against the principle of responsible government should we hand this money over to be expended by a government over which this parliament has no control.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think there is any question of responsible government about it. Suppose you increased the provincial subsidy by $20,000 and let the province deal with its own roads, there would be no violation of any principle of responsible government. The minister says that when the new provinces have been established there will be no further grant for colonization roads, but if that be so, why is it that you apply part of this grant to the province of Manitoba ? The difficulty is that the government by retaining control of the lands which ought to be the subject of provincial legislation, is led into expenditure of this kind. The building of colonization or other roads is a purely local work which ought to be carried on by the provincial government. If assistance is to be given it will be better to make a grant to the province for that purpose, because it seems beyond question that the provincial authorities would be in a better position to judge of the best mode in which to expend this money than would be the department at Ottawa. Is the minister still of opinion that aid to colonization roads in the Northwest Territories will cease after the new provinces are established, or will it be continued as in the case of Manitoba ?
'Mr. BRODEUR. The information in the notes before me shows that in the province of Manitoba two sums of $5,000 each were expended, and this expenditure was for preparing roads to enable immigrants to enter the country. It wrould seem that this expenditure was on account of promoting immigration, rather than for the purpose of building colonization roads in the general sense of the word.


David Henderson: When we discussed this vote last year, my recollection is that the Minister of the Interior promised this side of the House, that so far as the province of Manitoba was concerned, any part of this money which was expended within the piro-vince would be handed over to the provincial government. It is the duty of the local government to provide roads and bridges within the province, and the Manitoba government would be in a far better position to see that even $5,000 was properly expended on roads than would this government at Ottawa, 1,500 miles away. Even if the expenditure is to assist immigrants to get into certain sections of the province, the provincial government is at least just [DOT] Mr. BRODEUR.
as interested in that matter as this parliament could be. If we are going to construct colonization roads in Manitoba let the local government do the work and regulate the expenditure, and let the same thing be done in the case of the new provinces. I believe the minister would be perfectly justified in handing this money over to the province, especially as he has said that this vote is not to be continued after the new provinces are created.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: My own personal opinion is that it would not be advisable to give to a province the control of this expenditure. i


Uriah Wilson: On their own roads.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: On our own roads. This money was expended for the special purpose of enabling us to sell Dominion lands, and why should we hand it over to the local governments over which this parliament has no control ? For my part I do not agree in the view that we should hand money over to those who are not responsible to the Dominion parliament or to the people of the country. The provinces may be perfectly reliable, but they are not responsible to this parliament for the expenditures.


David Henderson: Judging by the sarcastic smile which crosses the minister's face, he is not very strongly impressed with his own argument. Is there any reason to believe that the Manitoba government would make any more unwise expenditure of this money than they do of the large subsidy which wm hand over to them or of any other moneys which they get for the purposes of government ? Surely wm can trust them with the expenditure of this small sum of money to improve their own roads. On what authority does this government go on to the highways of Manitoba and construct roads ? That is a duty assigned to the provincial government, and I question if we have any constitutional right to expend money on the highways of Manitoba.
I am perfectly willing that the grant should be made, but it should be expended through the proper channel. The construction of colonization roads has been a standing grievance for a long time in the province of Ontario, and we all know there what it meant. It has been used for a great many years for election purposes, and I have no hesitation in saying that this grant of $5,000 is to be used along the same line. That was brought out in the debate last year. My impression is that there is more politics than construction of public roads in the whole grant, and that is a good reason why the work should be put into the hands of an honest government. I think the minister should divest himself of all suspicion of wrong-doing by agreeing to hand it over to the provincial government, whose duty



[Stage Direction]
it is to see that these roads are constructed and maintained; but, as we want to see that immigrants are provided with roads to go into these different sections, we might supplement the work of the provincial government with a grant of $5,000. Then we shall not have one set of men constructing one portion of a road and another set another portion. Who is going to maintain these roads after they are constructed? In years to come the Dominion government may stop this grant, and then what is to become of this road which was constructed and is practically owned by the Dominion government ? Let the work be done by the provincial government, or by the municipal authorities under the control of the provincial government, who are interested, every man down to the pathmaster on the highway, in seeing that a dollar's worth of value is obtained for every dollar of expenditure. Men fifteen hundred miles away have not the same interest. I think ail the arguments are in favour of handing the money over to the province of Manitoba, and letting the local authorities spend it.
Mr. SCHAFFNER.: The proportion of the grant for Manitoba is about $5,000 ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Yes.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: That is a very meagre sum.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: One of these roads is to facilitate the travelling of settlers from Minnesota into Canada where it is now hard to travel. The road between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba is to enable settlers to get into that country. These are the only two sums required for Manitoba. I suppose the Manitoba government are looking after the roads in the province, but it is necessary to expend $5,000 for these two roads to carry out the immigration policy of the government.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think the minister gave the true reason why this grant should be made. It is very clear that it should be made, if made at all, because we own the land. That shows the folly of continuing to hold the lands instead of handling them over to the provinces. We have to bring in immigration, and in order to do so, we have to make roads. If this is the policy of the government, we ought to control the roads everywhere. I think the proper course would have been to give the lands to the provinces and let them take care of them. I think the people of those provinces are as able to take care of the immigrants as we are. It looks as if you were spending a great deal too much money belonging to the Dominion of Canada, in view of the fact that the older provinces have not so much interest in keeping the lands and building the roads as in giving the lands to the provincial authorities to use them as they see fit.
241J


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Whose constituencies are on both sides of the roads which are being built ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I could not tell.


John Herron: I would like to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that we have in the Northwest what is known as a bridge gang, consisting of an engineer and a gang of men who go all over the country repairing bridges. I think we would get very much better value for our money if we handed it over to the Northwest government to spend and to see that the bridges were properly repaired. That is the way to have the work done well and cheaply, as these men are on the ground. I would like the minister to take that into consideration.


Robert Laird Borden: What amount has been expended in Manitoba up to date for colonization roads by this government ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy thiuks we have spent about $25,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: This is an entirely new departure in the spending of money. Never ' until last year was this idea carried out.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, I think it has always been the policy of the government to look after that work.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have a statement here of the Minister of the Interior that it was a nqw departure altogether.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy informs me that three or four years ago, $20,000 or $25,000 was spent at Athabasca Landing, on the Peace river.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) asked the government whether they intended to keep in repair these roads which they .are building. Would they not be compelled to keep them in repair ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I suppose the provincial or municipal authorities would look after that, as they do in the older provinces.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: This road in Manitoba from the boundary line connects, I suppose, with the Canadian Northern or the Canadian Pacific ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: My hon. friend knows the locality better than 1 do. I could not say exactly with what roads it connects but I believe it must connect with some other road.


Robert Laird Borden: Under the English law, which is in force in Manitoba, a public body constructing a public work is responsible for its maintenance, and no other evidence is required except evidence as to construction. It would be well to have a more definite idea as to how matters are going to work out in that regard. We have a statute in this country which imposes lia-

bility upon the government for the negli-geuce of its employees upon public works. You are constructing these roads as public works, and by that very fact you are imposing upon yourselves the duty of maintenance and the responsibility for maintenance, in the absence of some arrangement by which the provincial government or the municipality will take over that duty. That particular consideration is worthy of attention by the government before they spend very much money in this way. You may be undertaking a greater responsibility than you have any idea of at present. I did not gather from the minister any answer to the question which I put him a moment ago and which was this. He said it was not proposed to continue the construction of colonization roads in the Territories because we are now organizing them into provinces, and that obligation will devolve upon the provinces. But we have not followed that policy in .Manitoba. Is the hon. minister able to state what the future policy of the government will be in that regard ? Do you propose to construct colonization roads in the Territories or leave that matter to the new provincial government? In the latter case, yon should carry out a similar policy in Manitoba.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I understand that the policy of the department will be not to build any more colonization roads in the Northwest Territories which are to he erected into provinces. As to the maintenance, I suppose the contention of the hon. gentleman regarding our liability is correct. But it must be remembered that those roads are being built in sections of country which have no population to-day. But in the ordinary course of events they will become populated and form municipal organizations, and then, if there be any doubt as to the liability of the government, the government will have the option of either closing the roads or handing them over to' the municipal authorities.


Mr.   I@: The principle to which 1 allude is one that applies to public bodies, but whether it would have the same application to the Crown is another question, because sometimes different principles prevail with regard to the Crown.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy informs me that the government has never been condemned to pay.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: As the government have expended $25,000 in the last year or two in the province of Manitoba on colonization roads, would not the province of Ontario be justified in asking them to do as much for that province?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are not the owners of lands in the province of Ontario but we are in Manitoba, and consequently in the latter province it may be necessary that we Mr. R L. BORDEN.
should open some colonization road in order to sell our lands. Suppose the provincial government were not in a position to make those improvements, and it was necessary they should be made in order to sell onr lands, would it not be good policy for us to make them?


Robert Laird Borden: That hardly seems consistent with what the hon. minister has just said, namely, that he proposes to discontinue building colonization roads in the Territories.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It might happen in some cases that we would have to do it. This is a very small item so far as Manitoba is concerned.


Robert Laird Borden: If the principle upon which you are proceeding is that because you own the land you must provide roads, it will be difficult to carry out the policy mentioned a moment ago, namely, that yon will cease building these roads when the new provinces are established. You will still own the land, and if any necessity to build roads exists now, that necessity will continue.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It may exist in some particular cases. Suppose we had an application for the opening up of a section of the country and the provincial government refused to build these roads, would it not be good policy for this government to do that work in order to sell its lands?


Andrew B. Ingram: Then we are to assume that the local government of the Territories have refused to spend money on their roads?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, but the same thing may happen there as happens every day in the other provinces. In the province of Quebec, sometimes settlers ask for colonization roads and their request is refused for one x-eason or another, and no doubt the same thing happens in Ontario. Suppose that settlers told us they were willing to settle on certain government lands provided we built them a road, would it not be good policy to grant their request?


Andrew B. Ingram: In that case all you need do is put an item in the estimates to be expended in a certain way and let the local government spend it in that way. That however would not suit this government because it wants to control the expenditure for reasons of its own.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think it is good policy that we should control our own expenditure.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the hon. gentleman were the owner of lands and the lands adjoining belonged to some body else, sni'eiy if he were offered money to improve the lands alongside his own, it would be in his own interest to spend the money on that object and thus incx-ease the value of his


own property. What would apply to an Individual would equally apply to a local government.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I would not be in favour of voting mouey to be spent by a local government. I think we had better keep the control of our own expenditure. Even if the local government were the best in the world, we have always recognized the principle that we should keep control of our own expenditure and not hand over the money to be expended by any other body. Some' allusion has been made to the fact that we are giving subsidies to the provinces. But if we do, it is because we are bound to do so by the Confederation Act. Over these moneys we have no control. But there is no reason why, if certain works become necessary in our own interest, we should not expend the money on them ourselves.


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not see the force of the hon. gentleman's reasoning. This is an expenditure which is likely to be improperly used. The government is reserving the right to expend the money itself on colonization roads, and it may send the money in two or three different constituencies, under the patronage of gentlemen who are more interested in carrying elections than in improving their roads.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: If you discuss the question from that point of view, very well, but I am discussing it from the point of view of principle.


Andrew B. Ingram: We had that principle in Ontario, and the settlers in new districts suffered because of the improper method in such expenditure by the local government. There may be the same thing here.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: All the greater reason why expenditure on colonization roads should be controlled by this government and this parliament.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, the hon. gentleman had better withdraw the subsidy he is giving to the local legislature in the Northwest Territories.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is a question of contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is a question of degree in the hon. gentleman's mind. He thinks it is improper to entrust the government of the Northwest with an expenditure of $25,000, but that it is all right to entrust them with an expenditure of $1,000,000.


Samuel Barker: I can assure the minister that the experience in the new districts in Ontario, as shown by the public accounts, was that, where the provincial government expended money on colonization roads, it fre- I quently happened that more money was I spent in paying the salary of the inspector *
of a bridge than was spent upon construc-tiqn of the bridge itself.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not deny that money might be expended in a wholly useless way. But that makes all the stronger the argument in favour of our keeping control of our own expenditure. Why should we vote money for a provincial government to expend? Doing that, we-have no control over the expenditure. This money should be spent under the supervision of our own officers. If anything is done wrong, these officers can be blamed and the government held responsible.


Samuel Barker: The difficulty in Ontario was that votes such as this were often spent for political purposes. Here the government proposes to spend money at points fifteen hundred miles away from the point of supervision. But, if you leave it in the hands of the local government it would be properly expended for the benefit of the public.


David Henderson: Possibly I was astray in my reference to the statement of the minister last year as to the Manitoba government being permitted to expend the Manitoba portion of this money. I find, on looking up the debate, that so determinedly opposed was the minister of the Interior of that time (Mr. Sifton) to allowing the province of Manitoba to expend this money that he struck the item out of the estimates. If his government could not expend the money in their own way for their own purposes, then he would not agree to its being spent at all. It seemed that this vote to construct roads was quite an unnecessary vote. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sifton) practically admitted last year that it was unnecessary for road construction by asking to have it struck out and the item reduced from $25,000 to $20,000. Rather than allow the people of Manitoba to expend this sum of $5,000 in the improvement of their roads the hon. member for Brandon, then Minister of the Interior, in a trantrum, in a pet, moved that it should be struck out. I am not afraid that the minister (Mr. Brodeur) now in charge of these estimates will make such a suggestion. No doubt the minister will get the vote, but we think that he ought to concede to the people of Manitoba, who are more deeply interested than we are in the opening of that province, the right to expend this small sum. On going hastily over the debates of last year, I find that very strong arguments were advanced in favour of handing over this appropriation to Mani-itoba. And the Minister of the Interior of that'time felt so keenly that he could not meet the argument, that rather than allow the committee to have its own way, he succeeded in having a motion carried to reduce the item and refuse anything for expenditure in Manitoba. That is a dog-in-the-manger way to proceed.
*


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think the money was voted last year-so it would appear from the estimates.


David Henderson: The motion made was that the item be reduced from $25,000 to $20,000 and that ' Manitoba and ' he struck out-leaving the vote $20,000 applicable exclusively to the Northwest Territories.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Then, there is a mistake in the estimates.


David Henderson: The result in the committee was as I have given it, as the hon. gentleman will see if he will refer to page 0048 of ' Hansard ' of last year.


Mr. BURROWS.: Was not that amendment introduced on the ground that certain objections were taken to the vote based on the contention that Manitoba did not require new roads and the minister (Mr. Sifton), rather than vote unnecessary money threw out that portion relating to Manitoba ?


David Henderson: No, the reason was that it was strongly urged in the committee that the Manitoba government should be allowed to expend the money.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: I represent a constituency in Manitoba where the people look forward to expenditure on roads as an aid to immigration. There is a large district in the northern part of Manitoba that requires public roads, and I think it is necessary to expend a certain amount of money in opening up such a country, to be settled afterwards by the immigration department. This applies to Manitoba as to the Northwest Territories. I would like to see an appropriation for the construction of colonization roads in Manitoba.


David Henderson: I have gone very rapidly over the debate to which I referred, and it seems quite clear that the vote was struck out practically because it was contended in the committee that the money should be expended for the improvement of roads by the province of Manitoba. The minister (Mr. Sifton) seemed desirous that it shall be spent not so much for making roads as for election purposes. He said that the Manitoba government must not have the expenditure of this money.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: I don't blame him knowing that government as I do.


David Henderson: I have no doubt the hon. gentleman (Mr. Burrows) agrees with the ex-Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton), and that if he could not have the money spent for election purposes he would not have it spent at all. I have no doubt that is the view of the hon. gentleman, as a follower of the ex-Minister of the Interior, but the strong contention of the opposition was that, under the Dominion government the money would not be properly expended. Mr. HENDERSON.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: Will the hon. gentleman (Mr. Henderson) tell me of a single case of a vote by this parliament of money to be expended by any province for immigration purposes ?


David Henderson: Can the hon. gentleman (Mr. Burrows) state that his government has not voted money for the improvement of roads in New Brunswick ?


Theodore Arthur Burrows: For immigration purposes, I say.


David Henderson: I am not speaking of immigration, but of the improvement of roads. I believe we have on the records of this parliament a vote such as I speak of. I believe we have on the records of this parliament a vote of that kind. I have heard a reference made to it, so there would be a precedent for anything the government might do now, and a very good precedent. This matter was very fully discussed last year, from all standpoints.
Mi-. BURROWS. On what page of ' Hansard ' ?


David Henderson: The hon. gentleman will find the debate commencing on page 9042 of last year's ' Hansard.' The whole tenor of the debate was the right of the province of Manitoba to expend this grant, the various reasons why it should be done by the province rather than by this government ; and the pressure executed by the opposition was apparently so strong that the minister was unable to resist it, and refused to allow the item to pass at all, and had it struck out of the estimates. I do not want the matter to end that way this year. I would rather see it go through and let the Dominion government expend it rather than not have it expended at all, because I think the settlers there need the expenditures. But I do think it is hardly treating the province right, when they have road money given to them, to say tha't they shall not expend it on their own highways.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: The hon. gentleman ought to be aware of the fact that when the Dominion government takes an appropriation to be expended in the immigration department, it is not the local government who has the handling of that money. I do not see by what argument the hon. gentleman can support a contrary theory. Why should not all the other provinces of the Dominion have an immigration department as well as Manitoba ? This money comes out of the immigration vote, as I understand.


David Henderson: Not at all, it is coming out of the item for roads and bridges.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: I understand it is in the interest of immigrants. I may say that I live in a d'Strict in Manitoba that requires colonization roads more than in any other district, a northern district, a large portion of which is not yet opened up, and a portion

in which I would expect this money to be expended if anywhere ; yet I have no hesitation in saying that I would not vote for an appropriation to be handed over to the local government for that purpose.


David Henderson: No doubt the hon. gentleman would rather have this government spend the money, because doubtless he would have control of the expenditures, or it would be expended by men whom he nominated. But I still stand by my contention, that the men whose duty it is to make roads and bridges in the province of Manitoba, whether they be the municipal councils or pathmasters, are the proper men to expend money of this kind, and I would rather have it left in their hands than that the patronage should be handed over to the member of the riding. In the province of Ontario it became a very serious matter to leave patronage of this kind for colonization roads in the hands of the member for the district. The consequences were ridiculous, the money was simply frittered away to the neglect of public works. I would not say that the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Burrows) would be so neglectful of the interests of his own district; hut it is better not to put the danger in his way, there may be too much temptation.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to add to what my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) has said, the opinion of the late representative of one of the Manitoba constituencies on this matter, which wrill be found in last year's ' Hansard,' page 8019 :
It seems to me that so far as Manitoba is concerned, the hon. minister has made the explanation very nicely. It is a rather unusual departure on the part of the government to commence building colonization roads In a province such as Manitoba, and I think the government are establishing a dangerous precedent when they begin colonization roads through an organized province. The information that has been given to me is that in three cases each one of these amounts is to be expended in a way that is going to be a benefit to the candidates of the government who are now in the field. The information I have is that there is a certain foreign vote in the localities which are to he traversed by these roads and that the object of spending the money is for the reason I have given. It is a most extraordinary departure to undertake to spend the money of this government in that way, and we ask that if you are going to spend money, spend it in some proper way.
He would hand it over to an organized government and let them expend it.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: Who said that ?


Andrew B. Ingram: That was Mr. Boyd.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Do I understand the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Burrows) to say that be would oppose this government granting an appropriation towards building roads in the provinces ?


Theodore Arthur Burrows: What I say is this : This is an appropriation by the Dominion government over which they have absolute control, and I would rather see it expended by the officers of the Department of the Interior than by the officials of the local government in Manitoba.
Telegraph lines-Maritime provinces-Mabou, Che-ticamp, Meat Cove line-extension of Bay St. Lawrence, $3,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Could the minister tell us the total number of miles of telegraph lines which are owned by the Dominion government at the present time, giving a statement of the revenue and expenditure in connection therewith ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We have 6,270 miles distributed as follows : In Gaspe, 28 miles; Anticosti, 226 miles ; Magdalen islands, 83J miles ; Pelee Island, 25* miles. All the rest are in the Northwest, British Columbia and the Yukon. The revenue for the year 1903-4 was $147,391.34; the expenditure was $327,917.65.


Robert Laird Borden: Can the minister state what the policy of the government is in regard to the development of this very important system of telegraph lines ? Is it proposed to extend that, and in what portions of the country ? We had some discussion as to this two years ago. It was then mentioned that there was a proposal to extend in the Gulf of St Lawrence eventually to make communication with the island of Cape Breton and with the land cables.


Mr. FIELDING.: They have a line to Cape Breton.


Robert Laird Borden: Probably that has been completed since the discussion two years ago.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The policy of the department is to build lines where the ordinary telegraph companies would not like to establish lines, and where they are necessary for the development of trade.


Robert Laird Borden: There has been a good deal of complaint in Prince Edward Island as to their lack of telegraph communication or rather as to the high charges they are compelled to pay.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: A new contract has been made.


Robert Laird Borden: I should like to have the particulars of that contract.


Mr. DEFURGEY.: The particulars were brought down in answer to a question. I wish to ask the minister why the Canadian Pacific Railway was not a party to that agreement along with the Great Northwestern ? The Great Northwestern is the only line we can use to the islaud ; apparently there is no mutual arrangement witli the Canadian Pacific Railway.


William Stevens Fielding: My recollection is that the agreement was made with the Anglo-American Company which is the owner of the cables between the mainland and the island. What the government did was to make an additional grant by way of inducing the company to give a more favourable rate. The grant was placed at $7,000. The company controlling the lines in Prince Edward Island agreed to make a lower rate and to give better facilities to the public in the way of office hours. These are the main features of the arrangement. I think the arrangement was made with the Anglo-American Company which happened to be in closer touch with the Great Northwestern than with the Canadian Pacific Railway.	.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I think that must be the case. Many points are reached by the Canadian Pacific Railway and not by the Great Northwestern. I was talking to some Canadian Pacific Railway officials and they can give no reason why a similar arrangement should not be made with their line for a lessening of their rates.


William Stevens Fielding: That would be a matter for the Anglo-American Company. The complaint was as to the double toll across the strait, and the Anglo-American Company being in closer touch with the Great Northwestern than with the Canadian Pacific Railway would be inclined to make the arrangement with their own connections. The difficulty I suppose would be in bringing about the co-operation of these two companies.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Might I suggest that the minister take this matter up and see if some such mutual arrangement cannot be made with the Canadian Pacific Railway ? I believe the Canadian Pacific Railway would not object to the same arrangement as is made with the Great Northwestern.


William Stevens Fielding: I am not sure that we can control that. I know the Canadian Pacific Railway was communicated with and offered every opportunity of offering terms to Prince Edward Island if they desired. An official of the department had communicated with representatives of the two companies, the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Great Northwestern, but I think the Canadian Pacific Railway did not regard the business as very attractive to them.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Four or five years ago, Sir Louis Davies, when in the House, had an offer from the Canadian Pacific Railway practically the same, the 30 cent rate to Prince Edward Island with certain emoluments to be paid outside, which would praeti-cally be the same contract as they have with these people now. I only suggest we might have some mutual arrangement with the Canadian Pacific Railway now.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: 


William Stevens Fielding: I am quite sure if there was such an offer from the Canadian Pacific Railway four or five years ago, it would have been very gladly accepted. I cannot imagine that if the Canadian Pacific Railway made such an oflier it would be refused, because we were very anxious to get better rates to Prince Edward Island. The Canadian Pacific Railway had no cable across to the island and their relations with the Anglo-American Company are not as close as those of the Great Northwestern.


Robert Laird Borden: If you are paying an additional subsidy why would it not be a proper thing to have the reduced rates apply to the Canadian Pacific Railway as well as the other companies ?


William Stevens Fielding: They certainly will apply so far as the cable rates are concerned.


Robert Laird Borden: I would think so.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many lines of telegraph are there owned by the government in each of the provinces ?
Mr., BRODEUR. There are in all 6,270 miles of telegraph line, distributed as follows : Quebec, Gaspe, 2S miles : Anticosti, 223 miles ; Magdalen Islands, S3 miles, and on the north shore about 1,300 miles ; 1,600 and odd miles in Quebec. In Ontario there are 25 miles ; in the Northwest about 800 miles ; in British Columbia from 700 to 800 miles ; in the Yukon nearly 2,000 miles ; in Nova Scotia between 300 and 400 miles, in New Brunswick about 80 miles.


William Stevens Fielding: I think this system began with the construction of telegraph lines in sections of the country which were placed at a disadvantage owing to their sparseness of population and isolated condition, so that for ordinary commercial reasons the telegraph companies were not disposed to establish lines there. The matter of affording communication in cases of shipwrecks had a good deal to do with the foundation of the system, the desire to get communication with distant points where vessels were in distress. Then the system was extended. For example when it came to the Yukon no ordinary company was willing to take up the business on commercial principles, and the government thought it important for national reasons that there should be a telegraph line. In some parts of the Northwest the same reasons existed. It would be difficult to lay down any principle governing the whole matter, but the system has grown up under these conditions. Telegraph lines were established where it was desirable, for many reasons, there should be communication and where the profit would not induce commercial companies to undertake the enterprise.
Telegraph	lines-Quebec-mainland, north
shore of the St. Lawrence, Bersimis to Godbout, land line, $6,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to substitute a land line 83 miles in length for the present cable communication between Bersimis and Godbout. It is recommended by the government superintendent of telegraphs in order to prevent interruption of several months duration which has been experienced in the past.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What was the total deficit on all the government telegraph lines throughout the Dominion last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The revenue last year was $147,391.91 and the expenditure $327, 917.65.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the total length of all telegraph lines in Canada ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: 1 cannot say, but I will make inquiries.


Robert Laird Borden: I asked the question with a view of getting the proportion of government owned lines to the entire mileage in Canada. In the same connection I would ask the minister whether there has been found any practical difficulty in the operation of the government lines. I quite understand that the government has selected portions of the country where such an enterprise would not be expected to pay commercially, and hence we have a deficit of about $1SO,000 a year. Have you been in the habit ot' making connections with private lines ; what has been the experience of the government generally operating its telegraph system ?
Mr. BRODETjR. I am informed by the deputy minister that we experience no more difficulty in operating our lines than is experienced by private companies. The fact is that we lose money every year, but our telegraph system is not expected to [jay. For instance the line on the north shore of the St. Lawrence is erected for the benefit of navigation. At first there was some difficulty in operating the Yukon line but lately it lias been working fairly satisfactorily. As to the maritime provinces I am informed that no difficulty is experienced.


Robert Laird Borden: How do the rates charged on the government lines compare with rates charged by private companies 1


Robert Laird Borden: The rates on government lines are higher because of the fact that the business is less.
Cable connection between Pelee Island and the mainland, $6,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make repairs and to lay down a new cable between Pelee Island and the mainland. The total cost will be $6,000.


David Henderson: Has the old cable given out.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Yes, it is of no use.
Kamloops-Lower Nicola line, $5,500.
Mr. BRODETJR, This is for the construction and equipment of a telephone line as recommended by the general superintendent. Sometimes it is found easier to have a telephone service than a telegraph service.


Robert Laird Borden: Are these new lines ?
I did not know there was any government ownership of telephones.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Originally they were built for the telegraph service but it was found less expensive to use them as telephone lines and so long as they work satisfactorily they will be continued.


Mr. A. MARTIN.: Is there a special night service over the government lines V


Mr.   BRODETJR@: No.


Alexander Martin: Is there a special night rate on any part of the government lines 1


Mr.   BRODETJR@: No.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the government under consideration the purchasing of the profitable telegraph lines in Canada ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: I am not in a position to give any information on that subject.


Mr.   I@: Are these the only telegraph lines which the government owns or are there others ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: These are the only ones. They are built for telegraph service and are operated in this way for the convenience of the service.
Mr. R, L. BORDEN. Do they connect with the lines of any private company ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Yes. This one connects with the long-distance telegraph line of the Canadian Pacific Railway.


Robert Laird Borden: They do not connect with the telephone lines of any private company 1


Mr.   BRODETJR@: No. They may touch points where there are other lines, but there is no agreement.
Vancouver Island to Salt Spring Island-telephone line extension on Salt Spring Island, $1,050.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is to make provision for a further extension of this telephone line.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the reason you are building these telephone lines ? Is the country sparsely settled, or are there important interests requiring them V


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is simply to connect the island with the mainland. I understand that there are a certain number of persons on the island who have no means of telegraphic^ communication, and therefore this telephone service is provided.

Arbitrations and awards, including payments authorized, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act, $5,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What does that mean ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote corresponds to a similar yearly grant made by parliament to the Department of Railways and Canals under the heading of miscellaneous. Previous to the subdivision of the Public Y\ orks Department in 1879 the annual grant for arbitrations and awards amounted to $10,000. In 1880 it was divided into two amounts of $5,000 each, one placed at the disposal of the Department of Railways and Canals, and the other left for the use of the Department of Public Works.


Robert Laird Borden: How much was spent last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 

Surveys and inspections, $50,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 
Robert Laird Borden: Are not these surveys and inspections made by officers of the department, and if so, why do you require this vote, outside of their salaries and travelling expenses ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is in case they require some assistance, in connection with these works, and for their travelling expenses when visiting the works.


Robert Laird Borden: How much was expended last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Robert Laird Borden: How much of that was expended in employing outside assistance ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have not that information.


Hr.   R.@: 1.. BORDEN. The vote is couched in very general terms, and I should think we ought therefore to have definite information upon it. I do not pretend to understand very much the working of the departments, but it would seem to me to be a curious way to vote money for salaries-to put it in an item under the heading of surveys and inspections. I think salaries should be provided for under some other item.
. BRODEUR. It is for extra work. It is not for salaries of officers of the department ; but sometimes some of the officers aie required tor extra work, and they are paid out of this vote.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Uriah Wilson: I thought there was a certain amount charged to every public work for the officials in the department attending to it.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That covers work for which appropriations are made ; but when applications are made for new works for which there are no appropriations, we have to provide for their inspection and survey.


Uriah Wilson: How can you have the work if there is no appropriation for it?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: These expenses are made before the money is voted. Suppose that my hon. friend asks for a public work in his county. The department will have to send somebody to look into the matter and to make an inspection and survey. He makes the survey and reports how much it will cost. He submits the matter to the minister, the minister submits it to the government, and the government to the House. The cost of that inspection and survey comes out of this vote.
Surveys of heal waters of Ottawa river an! tributaries, with a view of devising a scheme for the regulation of the water levels of the upper regions of these streams, so as to afford increased facilities for navigation purpose, the descent of timber, &c., $15,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is called for by the chief engineer of the Public Works Department to make provision for defraying the probable expense of making surveys of the head waters of the Ottawa river and its tributaries, and for regulating the water levels of the upper reaches of these streams, so as to afford increased facilities for navigation, the descent of timber and the development of water power.


Robert Laird Borden: Do you mean the development of water-power by the gover-ment or by private individuals?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are the owners of the water-power on the Ottawa river. This is for the purpose of regulating the descent of the water. A report is being made.


Robert Laird Borden: How long has the survey been going on?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: About a year.


Robert Laird Borden: When do you expect the report?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are some other points to toe surveyed before the final report is put in. WTe expect the report during the course of the summer.


Robert Laird Borden: Who is making the investigation ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Brophy, the engineer in charge.


Uriah Wilson: Is this waterpower to be utilized here?


JCNE 16. 1905
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is in order to regulate the water and get a larger revenue if possible and for navigation purposes also.


Uriah Wilson: But you have water-power going to waste. Why should it be necessary to spend money to get more ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that the water-power, excessive as it may appear, is not regular. Sometimes there is too much and sometimes not sufficient. This is in order to regulate the power because if the government undertook to lease a large quantity of water-power, it might be impossible at times to supply the quantity leased.


Uriah Wilson: Does the minister say that at any time during the year there is a shortage of water-power on the Ottawa?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: So I am informed.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the department had under consideration the putting in of plant to supply light to the buildings owned and controlled by the government?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Some time ago the department had a system of supplying the government buildings with light from government plant, but it did not work satisfactorily and the existing rystem is considered preferable.
Cement testing laboratory-improvements and equipment, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to cover the expense of procuring the latest and most approved appliances for testing the strength of cement.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many officials employed?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Four.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What is the total cost of the works?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 55,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: This is a new departure?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, since we have been doing concrete work this testing and experimenting has been going on.


Mr.   I@: Are you testing simply for the purposes of the government?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For our own works.


Robert Laird Borden: No inspection of the manufacture of cement?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: The manufacturers of cement are very eager that inspection of cement imported into Canada should be made. Has any thing been done towards that end ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That would not fall under the control of the Public Works Department but would be a question for the department of Trade and Commerce.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman s Minister of Inland Revenue, and I would draw his attention to the importance of testing the cement imported from the United States.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I would suggest that as the manufacture of cement is one of our most important industries, the cement made in our own country should be tested for the benefit of the people.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are testing it now for the public benefit.


Uriah Wilson: Are these tests to be published?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, they are simply made for the government.


Uriah Wilson: If you are making-tests of the value of cement, they ought to be published. I have in my mind a building in a small town, built on cement bottom, at a cost of 520,000 or 530,000. It would be to the advantage of this country if we had the views of experts on the value of cement for that purpose.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The policy of the department is simply to see that the cement used in these works is perfect cement. If we were to give certificates as to the quality of the cement sold by private industry, they could be used as an advertisement, and I do not see why the government should undertake to do that.


Uriah Wilson: Why should we not fix a standard and grades?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We might fix a grade or a standard but that is another question.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If it is necessary for the government to have four officials to take care of the cement used in their work, how much more important would it be that the people should know the quality of the cement they purchased and that a standard should be fixed.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is a standard specification provided for in the contracts made with the government, but I do not know whether it would be advisable or not to provide for an inspection of the cement imported.


David Henderson: It would be rather dangerous for the government to interfere with this industry by giving a certificate or opinion that a particular manufactured cement is superior to all others. No doubt the hon. minister is perfectly right in having a thorough test made of the cement being used in our public works. I think myself, from all we know about the business, we can make just as good cement in this country as anywhere for the purposes of our public works. WTe make iu this country just as good a quality of cement as we can import. In bygone years we im-

ported too much cement. I am glad the government have adopted this plan, and think it would inure to the benefit of Canadian industry and result in more Canadian cement being used than hitherto. The minister will find that we can make in Canada a cement as good as can be obtained elsewhere.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is provided in all the contracts made by the Department of Public Works that we shall use only Canadian cement, and it is found by tests that it is just as good as any other cement.


Mr. ZIMMERMAN.: It is with great pleasure that I learn that the government have decided to put in their contracts that only Canadian cement shall be used. I know something about the cement industry in Canada, and I can affirm that we are manufacturing the best cement in the world to-day both in fineness and in strength. I am very much pleased to learn that the government have adopted the system of using Canadian cement only.


David Henderson: I am 'delighted to know that we have another convert to the national policy. I am sure that the citizens of Hamilton will highly approve of what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Zimmerman) has said. For they are an Industrial people and believe in Canadian manufacturers. What the hon. minister has said will go throughout the length and breadth of Canada and will most materially help Canadian industry. It will draw the attention of builders generally to the fact that in the opinion of the government by whom a thorough test has been made. Canadian cement is superior to the imported article. We join our new convert to the national policy in rejoicing that this statement has been made.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Many good statements are made on this side.


David Henderson: And we are pleased to hear them all.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is any examination made of cement coming into Canada ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does not the minister believe that, in the present condition of our cement industry there should be such an inspection ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is a broad question. If we were to inspect cement, I suppose we should be called upon to inspect all the other goods that come into Canada.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The hon. minister has thought it wise, through the department of Inland Revenue of which he is the head, to inspect fruits and other goods.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is food inspection, and is carried on for the protection of the public health, and not to test the quality of goods coming into the country.


David Henderson: 


Andrew B. Ingram: Canadian cement manufacturers find that American cement brought into Canada is not of the quality represented. This inferior quality of cement can be sold at cheaj} prices, and so it is the means of unfair competition with our manufacturers.


Mr. CHRISTIE.: Do the government make a test of cement from different manufactories ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, we simply test cement used in carrying out our work.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I believe that this question of the importation of inferior cement is a very serious one to our manufacturers, as this competition undermines our cement business.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Our tests have nothing to do with the inspection of cement, they are simply made in connection with the construction of public works.


Peter Christie: But should not there be an examination of the cement sold by different manufacturers ? In my riding many farmers use quantities of cement, and sometimes they get a brand that gives very poor satisfaction. The farmer has no means of knowing the quality of the cement.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It would be a very serious thing for the government to undertake to declare whether a certain cement was good or not. It seems to me that it is. better to leave that matter in the hands of the trade. If our cement is, as I am informed, equal or superior to that imported, I suppose our business men will buy from our own manufacturers.


Robert Laird Borden: The suggestion, as I understood it, was along a little different line from that of the minister's remarks. The suggestion is that cement sold in Canada should bear a certain stamp indicative of its quality as a protection to the purchaser. If I were buying cement, for instance, I would be unable to distinguish between the good article and the bad. And farmers buying cement are apt to buy under a false impression as to quality. I'do not know whether the suggestion can be carried out, but it seems to me that it would be only following in this matter the line we have taken in others. We have insisted, for example, on certain marks upon fruit packages. This is not for the public health, but to enable the purchaser to know what he is buying. That is the nature of the suggestion, and I think it might be worth consideration at least.


William Stevens Fielding: What reason can be urged for doing that in the case of cement that would not apply in the case of other articles ? It appears to broaden very greatly the field of public inspection. We do sometimes broaden that field, but I cannot see why this should be done in the case of cement more than in that of other articles


1C. 1903
[Stage Direction]
In regard to which one is apt to he deceived. It is supposed that in purchasing certain goods the purchaser will satisfy himself as to the quality.
Mr. R. U. BORDEN.: But the same argument might be made in regard to fruit.
Mr* FIELDING. That has something to do with the public health.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think that in that case we looked at it from that standpoint. The object was to so mark the package that the purchaser would know what quality of goods he was buying, or, in case of misrepresentation, to give him recourse against the seller or to impose a penalty upon the seller. I concede that there may be great difficulty in making a general application of this principle, but we certainly have made a start in the direction of its general application. All our legislation with regard to fruit is exactly along the line which has been suggested here to-day. and it may be desirable for parliament at some time to extend it.


Mr. MILLER.: Our Canadian cement manufacturers have not only to compete with foreign competition but with an execss of home production. I would like to see any remedy adopted or any plan taken that would improv.e the condition of the manufacturers of Canadian cement. I would like to point out that the inspection of cements with the idea of grading- them would be difficult, because of the fact that any Portland c-ement increases in strength as its age increases. Therefore you might inspect a product of one factory and compare it by testing with the product of another factory and come to incorrect conclusions because of a difference in the age of the products. It seems to me that any system of inspection or grading, to be of any value, would be very difficult, and not so simple as the inspection of most other products.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the strength increase with age or decrease ?


Henry Horton Miller: Portland cement increases up to one year, or more than a year. And cement will keep on increasing in strength.


Robert Laird Borden: And decreases afterwards ?


Henry Horton Miller: No, I do not think so.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Miller) have brought to mind another article, illuminating oils, which are tested. Every barrel, practically every gallon, that is sent out has to be tested for public safety. Now is it not possible that we could have cement tested in the same manner, for public safety ? My hon. friend realizes the importance of the cement industry in our country, and how extensively it is being used among farmers and builders. Is it not reasonable to expect that justice would be more likely to be done people if a
certain standard was placed on the barrel of cement, and the date on which it was placed ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Some manufacturers, both Canadian and American, wish all barrels to be graded and stamped so that they may all be placed on the same level.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think it is possible.


Adam Zimmerman: In the United States every barrel or package of cement is tested and the result is marked on the barrel. The manufacturer tests it himself. The contractor insists on having a certain strength and fineness in the cement employed in some particular work be is engaged on. Some works require a lower grade of cement than others, so that where the manufacturer tests the cement himself, he can furnish the contractor with the quality he requires.
National Art Gallery, Ottawa, including the purchase of paintings on the advice of a committee of artists, $7,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This item covers $540 for a Caretaker, and $6,700 for the purchase of pictures. The gallery is on O'Connor street. This is an annual vote.
Chief Architect's office-salaries of architects, draughtsmen and clerks, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $73,200.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to defray the salaries of architects and others whose services have to be retained from year to year in tbe construction, maintenance, repairs, heating and lighting of public buildings under the control of the federal government throughout the Dominion.


David Henderson: This is a very large item. I notice the same item was voted last year. Can the minister tell me if that amount was expended last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There has been a mistake in entering this item. I have information from the chief architect's office that when the estimates were prepared the amount asked for was $42,200. The present item should be reduced by $31,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: The government are paying large amounts every year to different architects to draw up plans. I think all that work should be done by the department at headquarters.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In some cases plans have to be drawn up outside, but most of that work is done here.


Andrew B. Ingram: I can show the hon. gentleman in the Auditor General's Report several items that are paid to outsiders, which together would make up very large sums.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think the hon. gentleman must be mistaken.


Andrew B. Ingram: I know in my own city a case wliere the. superintendent of public works, wko is an architect, performed work for which he received so much per day, and he went on extending the work for months and months. There are other instances where architects draw up plans, and as they get so much per day they stretch out the work for months.


Uriah Wilson: What is the chief architect's salary, and the salaries of others ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The chief architect, Mr. Ewart, gets $3,500 ; Mr. Billings has $1,560. Mr. Routhier, $1,200 ; Mr. Marquette, $1,460 ; Mr. Lamb, $1,200. The average salary of the draughtsmen is between $900 and $1,100.


Uriah Wilson: It seems to me it would be possible to get men to do that who would come under the Civil Service Act.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are some officers there who can only receive $400 if we do not insert these words, and my hon. friend knows we cannot get draughtsmen, technical men, for that sum.


David Henderson: I am not sure but that the government is quite justified in employing young men who have not passed the civil service examination or entered the service in the regular way. Young men graduate from the School of Practical Science in Toronto, for instance, and it is a boon to these young men to be able to get an appointment in some way in the civil service until some permanent position turns up. I know some young men, I have one young man in my mind, who took this course and is employed by the government at a fair salary. He was considered a remarkably clever young man, and I was glad when lie was given employment in the department ; and if he was worthy of it, I do not see why he should be required to pass the civil service examination for the work the government was giving him to do. It is encouraging to these young men, and I am not one of those who decidedly object to the employment of a young man simply because he has not passed the examination.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is precisely what the department is doing. These men have technical knowledge, and it is impossible to get them for the price paid under the Civil Service Act-$400 a year. We could get men, but not competent men.
'Mi-. URIAH WILSON. It is not because they could not pass the examination, but because you cannot get them for the salary ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is because the salary provided is not sufficient.


David Henderson: They could get more outside ; $900 to $1,100 is not very high.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is not.
Mr. BRO-DEUR.
Telegraph service-salaries of staff, $6,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for the salaries of the staff of the government service at headquarters, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.


Andrew B. Ingram: How many are employed there ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Four-Mr. Iveeley, general superintendent; Mr. R. Iveeley. the cierk ; Mr. Parr and Mr. Hardcastle, the stenographer.
Temporary clerical and other assistance, inclusive of services of all persons required who were first employed after 1st July, 1882 notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $44,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to pay such persons as are required from time to time in the Public Works Department to render clerical assistance of one kind and another, in the capacity of clerks, &c., as exigencies require, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act. These are employed in the Public Works Department here. *


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many of them are there ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Sixty-four.


Andrew B. Ingram: After this -vote is passed we will hear no more of these temporary clerks. After this they will have to comply with the Civil Service Act.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; this is the usual \ ote which is taken. There are very few officers in the Public Works Department who are on the civil service list. Most of them are engaged in a temporary way.


Andrew B. Ingram: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Take the accountants. My hon. friend knows very well that we cannot get accountants for $500 or $450, but the case is the same as with the previous item ; such technical knowledge is required of most of the employees in the department that we have to provide in this way.


Andrew B. Ingram: Why not change the Civil Service Act to meet this ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: And get the names on the civil service list-a good suggestion.


Andrew B. Ingram: A lot of fraud can be perpetrated under this scheme, and it is abused.
At six o'clock, House took recess.

After Kecess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
On the order :
House in committee on Bill (No. 115) respecting the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. L. G. McCarthy.
David Henderson: I notice the promoter of this Bill is not here. I do not think we can go on with these Bills without the promoter. If we are to pursue that course how will we get members to attend the House. If members wish to have legislation put through they must be present.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think the objection is well taken because according to the rule if the member who is in charge of the Bill, or whose name appears on the back of it is not present some other member may move in his name. I do not think the point of order is well taken.


David Henderson: I am not rising to a point of order ; I am reasoning the matter. I take the ground that members should be here. We sit here day after day almost without a quorum and members have put their names on the back of Bills as a guarantee of their genuineness. Then they go away and remayi at home, they do not come here to attend to their legislation and a few members who do attend are expected to assume the responsibility of putting that legislation through. So long as we continue doing that we will find that members will absent themselves. They get their matters put through whether they are here or not, and I think it is time the House took a stand and said no Bill should be proceeded with at any stage in the House unless the member who has charge of it is present to vouch for its bona tides. This Bill is reported as amended ; we have not the printed amendments before us and we want somebody here to explain.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I can give all the explanations or they can be given by anybody who was present in the committee.


David Henderson: The Minister of Justice is very kind, but that does not get over the difficulty that he has only half a quorum behind him. I think the minister should join with us in adopting some measure that will act as an' incentive to members to be present at the sittings of the House to attend to the legislation. I raise the question not as a point of order but as something that should guide us with a view to having the affairs of the House conducted-I shall not say with propriety because we do that at all times-but in a proper way. A member in charge of a Bill asks the House to put through a certain measure and he ought
to be here to explain any clauses of it and to show by his presence that he has sufficient interest in the Bill to ask the House to put it through. I appeal to the House to endorse me on this question because I think it is the proper stand to take. I do not ask you to rule, I am not aware that there is any rule to prevent the Bill going on but I think as a matter of policy the House should say : We will allow the Bill to stand until the member is present.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think the best policy at this stage of the session is to expedite the Bills and get on so that we will get home at some time between this and December.


Uriah Wilson: What do you think of the importance of a Bill when the promoter is not here ? The Minister of Justice says that this Bill was discussed in committee, but it does seem to me that when the promoter of the Bill has not enough interest in it to be present the legislation in his judgment cannot be very important. I certainly think the House should sustain the position taken by the member for Halton (Mr. Henderson).


Andrew B. Ingram: It has come to this in this House now that if a few members who are in the liabit of attending regularly were to vacate their seats for a few hours we would have no session, and I think the privileges accorded to members are being abused to the fullest extent. It is a disgrace and a shame and if members who are occupying seats in this House cannot attend sometimes they had better resign and let others take their seats who will attend. It is certainly going beyond all decency to say the least. There are members who would like to take an hour off but who are compelled to sit here day after day because the other members will not attend.
House went into committee on the Bill.
On the preamble,	.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The blank spaces in the printed Bill are filled in with the words ' the mortgage dated the 10th day of June.'


David Henderson: Is that the only amendment in the Bill ? It is ' reported as amended.'


Charles Fitzpatrick: The Bill itself is very short but the schedules are very long, and perhaps if the leader of the opposition would permit me I would hand over a report sent to the government by Mr. Shepley. of Toronto, who acted for the government in connection with the preparation of these documents.


Robert Laird Borden: Very well.


David Henderson: I have no desire to oppose the Bill in any shape or form. I was present at the Railway Committee

when it came up and I am quite in accord-with the Bill and am simply rising to make the statement so that I shall not he misunderstood. I simply hold that we have a right not to have these Bills proceeded with in the absence of the members who father them.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There are very few members behind my hon. friend ; I think honours are even in that respect.


Andrew B. Ingram: We are not charging the government any more than members on our own side.


Robert Laird Borden: I think if this report, which is of some length, is to be of any service the Bill should stand over until Monday.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Of course if my hon. friend wishes it to stand it is no use proceeding, but I understand it is a matter of some importance that this Bill should be expedited.


Robert Laird Borden: I simply said if it was to be of any service to me.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Perhaps we might take up one or two of the other Bills and in the meantime my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) could read the report and if after reading it thinks the Bill should stand I am quite agreeable.
Progress reported.


RELIEF OF GEORGE PEARSON.
[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 153) for the relief of Geo. Pearson.-Mr. Calvert.
On the preamble.
Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: These divorce Bills that come from the Senate are always brought in a very long time after the evidence has been sent over to this House. They should be brought down a day or two after the evidence is submitted so that we would remember the evidence. If I remember rightly the evidence in this case has been down for over a month ; there are three or four of these Bills and members have these cases mixed in their minds.


Samuel Barker: It seems to me that this has been before the House for some weeks.
I was under the impression it had passed long ago until I noticed it on the order paper. I do not know where the delay occurred but the Bill was presented two weeks ago.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I always vote against these Bills, but I want to say, as a matter of public morality, that I believe many divorces should not be granted, for which there is no cause. In very few of these cases, from the evidence I have read, should divorces be granted, even from the point of view of those who are in favour of divorces ; and by granting divorces for such trifling reasons, we are en-Mr. HENDERSON.
couraging people to come and get divorces. At the same time, there is injustice in the matter, because people who have a good deal of money can get divorces, while poor people, who may have stronger reasons for getting divorces, cannot get them. That seems to be an anomaly, and I call the attention of the government to It.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed, on division.


RELIEF OF ARTHUR HOWE HERSEY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. CALVERT moved that the House go into Committee on Bill (No. 167) for the relief of Arthur Howe Hersey.-Mr. T. G. Johnston.
David Henderson: Of course, it is no use for me to raise the objection to this Bill which I did in regard to the first Bill; hilt during the past week or ten days I have noticed that Bills have been allowed to stand under similar conditions. I had a conversation with the solicitor of the respondent this afternoon, and he was very anxious that this Bill should not be pressed through the committee stage to-night. He opposed the Bill in the Senate, and intended to oppose it before the Private Bills Committee of the House of Commons ; but, unfortunately, the notice of the meeting failed to reach him. He desires to have another opportunity of dealing with the case before the Private Bills Committee, and he would like to have the Bill referred back for further consideration. I am not going into the merits of the case, because I do uot profess to be familiar with it ; I have not even read the evidence. But I am told this is a case in which there is no direct evidence of actual adultery ; it is a very special case, and on that account the solicitor is anxious to be heard before the Private Bills Committee. If the House would entertain the proposition to-night to refer the Bill back to that committee, I would be glad to move it; but if the House will not entertain that proposition, I would ask hon. members to be good enough to allow it to stand at least until Monday, when the promoter will probably be here, and when my request to refer the Bill back to the committee can be considered.


Mr. CALVERT.: The promoter of the Bill, Dr. Johnston, as most of the members are aware, has been ill for a week or ten days, and may not be here on Monday ; but I do not know any reason why the Bill should not be allowed to stand.
Bill allowed to stand.


CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 172) for the relief of Philip Vi-bert.-Mr. Turriff.
Bill (No. 129) to amend an Act respecting certain Patents of William A. Demon.-Mr. Campbell.

Bill (No. 166) respecting certain Patents of the Ideal Manufacturing Company.-Mr. Campbell.
Bill (No. 119) to incorporate D. R. Fraser and Company.-Mr. Talbot (Strathcona).

[Stage Direction]
Consideration of amendments made by the Senate to Bill (No. 106) respecting the Dominion Atlantic Railway Company.-Mr. Black.
Mr. BELCOURT.: The amendments are merely verbal. The object is to make provisions of the Railway Act of 1903 applicable to this Act.


Charles Fitzpatrick: This is to authorize the Dominion Atlantic Railway Company to acquire a local company and exercise its rights and privileges to the extent they are not inconsistent with our legislation.
Amendments read the second time and agreed to.


MANITOULIN AND NORTH SHORE RAILWAY COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
Consideration of amendment made by the Senate to Bill (No. 114) respecting the Mani-toulin and North Shore Railway Company.- Mr. Dyment.
Charles Fitzpatrick: This is merely a verbal amendment.
Amendment read the second time, and agreed to.


THE PACIFIC BANK.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. GALLIIIER moved the second reading of Bill (No. 175) respecting the Pacific Bank.
David Henderson: Has this Bill been printed ?


Mr. GALLIIIER.: The fees for printing have been paid, but I am not sure that it has been printed.


David Henderson: I presume it is the standard form of Bill ?


William Alfred Galliher: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The Banking and Commerce Committee will not sit for three or four days any way.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time.

[Stage Direction]
On the order :
House In committee on Bill (No. 115) respecting the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. L. G. McCarthy.
Robert Laird Borden: I gather from the memorandum that I find in my copy of the Bill that it was intended to have this report of Mr. Shepley printed and distributed. But, 242
though it has been printed, apparently it has not been distributed.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I got it printed. But, on Inquiry of those responsible for the distribution, I am informed that it has not been distributed.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps, in that case, we might let the Bill stand until Monday afternoon;-unless there is some very important reason for dealing with it now.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It was suggested to me that there were financial reasons why it should be put through ; but I am not in a position to press it, if there is any objection.


Robert Laird Borden: If the matter has been considered by counsel, and if there is any important reason why it should be gone on with, I would not ask that it should be allowed to stand. But I suppose that no great interest would suffer if it were not proceeded with at once.


William Stevens Fielding: I know that the company are exceedingly anxious to have the mortgage approved and that they attach importance to the Bill being gone on with. But I cannot give the reasons. They have been pressing for some time to have this transaction completed.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It has to go to the Senate and the Senate has adjourned for ten days.


Robert Laird Borden: Its standing until Monday will not delay the action of parliament.	.	,


Charles Fitzpatrick: I stated in committee that the report would be distributed before the Bill was gone on with, and I have to stand to that.
Bill allowed to stand.

House in Committee of Supply.
Public Works-chargeable to income-miscellaneous temporary clerical and other assistance, inclusive of services of all persons required who were first employed after 1st July, 1882, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $44,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I explained this item before six o'clock.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: This is a very large sum of money.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is the usual vote.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is this for all the departments ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, for the Department of Public Works. My hon. friend knows that there are a number of officers with special technical knowledge whose salaries are paid out of this vote.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is the usual vote and is intended to provide for the payment for technical works for the use of engineers, architects and draughtsmen.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does the department buy works to this value every year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where are they kept ?
. Mr. BRODEUR. Many of these are periodical publications and also technical works necessary for the use of officers of the department.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: This is over $40 a month. If every department spends as much it would make a great sum.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not know about the other departments.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Well, take the Department of Inland Revenue, of which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brodeur) is the head. How about that department ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We buy some books out of our general vote, but the amount we spend is small-no comparison with the expense of periodicals and books for the Public Works Department.
To provide for expenditure in connection with Transportation Commission, $15,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the remuneration of the commissioners, travelling expenses, salaries of two secretaries, and scientific and expert professional assistance necessary in connection with the commission's investigations.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: This does not pay the salaries of the commissioners ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes ; the commissioners are paid $25 a day.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When they travel ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When they do not travel they do not get anything ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What have these gentlemen done ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They have made a couftle of reports. But I must say that wu have been somewhat unfortunate in connection with this commission. Sir Wm. Van Horne, who was first offered the chairmanship, xvas unable to accept the position. Then Mr. John Bertram, who was made chairman, suffered a lingering illness which resulted in his death. And Mr. Reford a member of ihe commission met with an accident which prevented him from taking part in the work of the commission.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Robert Laird Borden: I think I have heard everything the minister has now said three times already this session. Before we vote more money for this Transportation Commission, I must ask that some more definite statement be made as to what they have done, what they are doing, when they are likely to complete their labour and what the result of it all is expected to be. I have already brought the matter to the attention of the House on two different occasions and have asked that we be given something more than the vague statements which we have heard three times already and which amount to just nothing at all. This commission was constituted in 1903, and from that time to the present I do not know one single matter in which it has been of the slightest assistance to parliament, although during that interval we have dealt with many important matters in transportation. We have been voting money year after year, and we do not know whether the men sitting there are constituted as a commission at the present time, who are the members of it, what it is doing, or anything at all about it. I would like the minister to make a full, definite and clear statement as to these matters, about which I have asked twice already during the present session, or else let this item stand until the government is prepared to make that statement. I think the Minister of Inland Revenue will realize that I am not asking anything unreasonable.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have no objection to let the item stand.


Robert Laird Borden: And I trust the hon. gentleman will take what I have said as notice that we do expect a statement on this matter.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not know whether the leader of the opposition remembers that an interim report has been laid before the House some time ago, with regard to the port of St. John.


Robert Laird Borden: It was an interim report with regard to some feature of one port.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: But he must admit that there have been many accidents. Lately the secretary of the commission became paralyzed. Some gentlemen who were appointed did not accept the position, and most of those who were appointed have either died or retired for one reason of another.
To cover balances of expenditures for works already authorized for which the appropriations may be insufficient, provided the amount for each work does not exceed $100, amounts shown opposite appropriations affected, $6,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is the same amount as was voted last year, when the wholei amount was expended. Suppose there is a public work for which the money voted was found to be insufficient, lacking $50 or $75, it may be ; and instead of coming to

parliament for a special vote to meet that balance, we take it out ot this $6,000. Suppose there is an appropriation for $500 and it was found that the work cost $540 ; instead of coming to parliament to get a special vote for that $40 it is taken out of this vote.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It amounts to this, that the principle prevailing in the British parliament, that not a cent of money is to be spent without being voted by parliament for the special purpose, is violated in these instances. The amounts are small, but the principle is important. I notice many cases in which large amounts are asked for in the main estimates, which we have to supplement not only once but twice. This is the third supplementary estimate, if 1 may so call it, that we are voting for some work or other.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We cannot well do otherwise. I see in the list some cases of 3 cents, 4 cents, 9 cents ; certainly the hon. gentleman would not expect us to ask for votes to pay these balances.
Collection of slide anid boom dues, including salaries of clerks, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Among the clerks whose salaries are included, is Mr. Gagng, whose salary is $1,095, and he is referred to by the Civil Service Act exemption. The item also covers two boat men and travelling expenses and contingencies.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How much do we get from these slides and booms ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We got last year $71,331.20 from the whole Dominion.


Andrew B. Ingram: What was the total cost of the slides and booms, the cost of construction and so forth ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We discussed that last night. There is the cost of construction, the cost of maintenance, and then the cost of the staff. This is for the staff. It includes one clerk at Ottawa, $1,095, two boat-men, $960 ; travelling expenses, $1,840 ; contingencies, $1,105. About the same amount every year.
To provide for paying the ' Upper Ottawa Improvement Company ' allowances re logs passed through Chenaux Boom, 1905-6, $1,800.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is authorized by Order in Council of December 14, 1903, and is rendered necessary by the low water at certain seasons of the year.


Andrew B. Ingram: The minister spoke of the Ottawa being very low. When is it very low, and at what points ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Generally in September and October ; the survey would tell the points, and I shall get that again.
Gatineau river-To pay Messrs. Gilmour & Hughson for use of their slides and booms at the Cascades, $600.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to pay Messrs. Gilmour & Hughson one year rental for the use of their slides and booms at the Oas-crdes, as recommended by the superintending engineer of the Gatineau.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the object ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: To obviate building slides and booms for ourselves, we pay a certain rental. We have booms below, and if we did not lease these then ours would be overcrowded.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Whose logs are going down in such great quantities ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The logs of the lumber merchants.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Are we paid for the logs that go through our booms ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes ; and we are paid by Messrs. Gilmour & Hughson.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How much did we receive for that particular one ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is all in one item ; we received last year from these booms in the Ottawa district $41,756.


Robert Laird Borden: As I understand, the government has a series of booms and slides in the river, and where this particular boom or slide is situated they make use of it as if they owned it, and inasmuch as they get compensation for the use of all these slides and booms they pay this amount to certain persons whose work has done a certain part of the service. Is that it ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Precisely.


Robert Laird Borden: The whole system leads in effect to the provision of a highway for bringing logs down, the utilizing of the river as a highway for the carriage of logs from the place where they are cut to the place of manufacture. I may be permitted to say that while this seems to be the practice in Ontario and Quebec, to a great extent in other provinces of Canada provision ot this kind is made very largely by the lumbermen themselves. The cases are perhaps capable of being distinguished. Here the river runs up a much greater distance and is used by a very much greater number of persons. In the instance to which I refer in my own province, the individual stream was probably used by not more than two or three lumbermen, or in some cases by not more than one. It may be that apart from this work the lumbermen have to make provision for running their logs down the streams which lead into the Ottawa. The conditions perhaps may be equalized by the circumstance I have just mentioned, that upon streams running into the Ottawa these men have to make that provision
7 631

which is made by the lumbermen in the maritime provinces for bringing logs from the interior to the sea shore. I do not know how it is, unless there is some such condition as that. It seems to be a different policy in the different provinces.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that the policy with regard to those booms on some rivers in Ontario and Quebec is a very old policy, existing long before confederation. I think it was established by the government of the country when these rivers were being settled up, when timber came to be cut off the banks of these rivers, and it has all been carried on in that way. I am under the impression that in the Confederation Act there was some provision as to the maintenance of those slides and booms. If it was possible to give them over to the lumbermen, perhaps it would be good policy ; I am not sure.


Robert Laird Borden: There would probably be difficulty about doing that where a large number of lumbermen are using the one stream ; it might lead to conflict and friction. I am not criticising the policy ; 1 believe that in respect to a great industry such as the lumber industry of these two provinces, it is the proper thing to have a great highway, such as the Ottawa, put in such condition that it may be used to the full. I suppose that must be done ; and, in addition to that, there is the circumstance that some compensation, probably not very adequate compensation, is received back from the lumbermen for the use of these slides.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have given the amount -$71,000. I was informed yesterday by the deputy minister that we get a return equal to 3 per cent on the money invested.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Do we pay $000 every year in this particular instance ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the minister give us the rates on each class of timber-square timber, dimension timber, cedar poles, railway ties, &c.?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The rates are printed in a little book, of which I shall be glad to send a copy to my hon. friend. I have not the information before me.


John Herron: Is this the method of collecting royalty ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is simply a kind of a highway made in the river. My hon. friend will see at the Chaudifre that it was necessary to build slides there to bring down the logs from the upper part of the Ottawa below the falls. These slides and booms were constructed many years ago to enable the lumbermen to carry on their business, and there is a certain amount every year for their maintenance. There is no royalty.


Robert Laird Borden: Repairs and working expenses, harbours, docks and slides, $164,400.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase of $10,300 here.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The item is made up as follows :	St. Maurice district, $38,000;
Ottawa river, $25,000 ; Trent river, $2,400 ; Burlington channel, $2,000 ; River Yamaska, $900 ; River Le Lievre, $800 : Levis Graving Dock, $4,500 ; Kingston, $3,000 ; Esquimalt, $8,500; making a total for the staff of $85,100. The repairs and supplies amout to $79,300 and the increase of $10,300 is made up as follow's : St. Maurice district repairs and improvements, $5,900 ; Burlington channel bridge, repairs and improvements,. $1,700 ; River Yamaska, lock and dam, $500 ; Kingston Graving Dock, $500 ; Esquimalt Graving Dock, $700.


Uriah Wilson: What was spent last year on the same works ?
Mr. BRODEUR, For slides and booms, $75,362.25 ; for the graving docks, $33,884.53 ; for the bridge locks, $10,068.76.
Telegraph lines Prince Edward Island and the mainland, $7,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you mix up these items in the estimates in such a confused manner ? You have telegraph lines in one place, and then slides and booms, and then something else and then telegraph lines again. It looks as if the items were thrown into a basket and the basket turned upside down.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: At one page of the estimates the items are for construction and maintenance and at the other page for collection of revenue.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you not say so in the estimates. I think I could make better estimates than these although I have had no practice.


Uriah Wilson: Why is there such a large increase in this vote ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is because of the contract we have made with the Anglo-American Company by which wTe give them $5,000 for a better service for the people of the island.


Uriah Wilson: I do not understand why you should give the one company this $5,000 when you might perhaps have got a better service from the Canadian Pacific Railway for instance.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The Anglo-American Company have a monopoly under an old contract and we have to deal with them.
Land and cable lines, lower St. Lawrence and maritime provinces, including working expenses of vessels required for cable service, also maintenance of Marconi Wireless Telegraph af Belle Isle, $80,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is called for by the general superintendent of telegraphs
7C33


UNE 16. 190S
[Stage Direction]
to provide for the expenses of the lines in the lower St. Lawrence and maritime provinces and the Marconi system.
Telegraph lime, Northwest Territories,
Mr.   I@: Why is there an increase in this vote ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is in consequence of the line being extended and the greater expense for its operation.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many operators are there on the line between Qu'Appelle and Edmonton ?


Mr. BRODEUR J. S.@: Macdonald, Miss E. Johnston, A. Yon Lindenburg, H. A. Macdonald, T. G. Clement, W. Salisbury, D. Noel, T. J. Callaghan, E. McCleneghan, H. McClenaghan, G. G. Mann, M. Therien, J. Carroll, A. K. Morrison, J. C. Gordon, E. A. Holmes, A. W. M. Campbell, T. J. McNamara.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does part of this line run along the Canadian Northern ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that both lines meet at a place called Hui'nboldt.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Are you going to continue the government line to Edmonton ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the Canadian Northern is going to have a line to Edmonton, what is the object of the government continuing the line ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: One is built for railway work. We have our line established, and I suppose it is better for us to maintain it.


Andrew B. Ingram: I should judge that the government line will not pay. The railway will be able to operate its line for a commercial business, too.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We expect that the line will pay.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. minister mean that he is going into competition with a private line ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; the line between Qu'Appelle and Edmonton is already built.


Robert Laird Borden: I thought the two items of increase were due to extensions V


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are for lines which have been built outside of the Qu'Appelle and Edmonton line.


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid the hon. gentleman is violating one of the canons of the Postmaster General by competing with private enterprise. He was horrified with that idea with regard to railways. I suppose this opportunity has been selected to pass this item in his absence.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I suppose we cannot prevent railway companies building telegraph lines over their own territory.


Robert Laird Borden: But the principle might require you to cease operating yours.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does the minister know anything about Mr. Macdonald having a house built for him, and about his having taken an active part in the last elections ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am sorry that I cannot gratify my hon. friend's desire for information on that subject.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Have you not the money there for building the house V


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is none.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the minister give us an idea of the number of messages, other than government messages, which have been sent over this line ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 12,000 in the Northwest, outside of government messages.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many government messages 1


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think it is stated in the blue-book.


Andrew B. Ingram: How does that compare with the previous year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that it is about the same.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it not a fact that this line runs through Indian reservations, and that there is very little local patronage ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Our telegraph lines are built in certain sections of the country which are not provided with telegraphic communication, and where private companies will not provide it. They develop trade and the country generally.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the hon. gentleman looks at the map, he will see that the Canadian Northern line runs from Humboldt west through Edmonton. Therefore, it seems remarkable that the government should keep up their line to the same place. The statement of the hon. gentleman might apply very well where there is no private line ; but here you have two lines in a sparsely settled country, and I see no reason why the government should continue to keep their line up.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not see why the government should take it away. The line was constructed in 1883, long before the Canadian Northern was built. If the railway company is establishing a telegraph line along its railway we cannot prevent it.


Andrew B. Ingram: The point I am making is this. Everybody knows that it requires a certain expenditure every year to keep up a telegraph line. When the Canadian Northern has a line through that section of country, why should the government keep up another V The poles and wires might very

well be put where they would serve points which are not now served by any company.
Mr. BRODEUR, I do not think it would pay to transfer these poles and wires 200 or 300 miles away.
'Mr. INGRAM. Does the government make a practice of building houses for the operators on this telegraph line ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Where there are no houses the department builds them.


Andrew B. Ingram: Have you got the buildings that we erected last year ? Take the one in township 36, range 23 near Humboldt for one Mr. Macdonald


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I will inquire and bringdown the information.
_ Mr. INGRAM. Having the government line and the Canadian Northern line, why are you going to the extra expense of building houses on a line which cannot possibly, for years to come, make sufficient to pay running expenses. I think that the government should not go to that additional expense when the Northern is able to perform all the services required at present.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am not familiar with the circumstances, but when I have the report, I shall be in a position to give all the information required. It may be necessary to build some houses in some particular places but I am not in a position to give information just now.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would it not be better to let the item stand ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, I will give the information when we are next in supply.
Telegraph lines, British Columbia, $20,000.
Mr. BRODEUR, This is to provide for the working expenses of the British Columbia line during next year. The small increase is due to an additional line.
Telegraph lines, Yukon (Ashcroft-Dawson line and branches), $183,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the working expenses for the fiscal year ending 30th June, 1906, namely, salary of operating staff, line repairs, travelling expenses, provisions, freight, packing charges, supplies, &c.


Uriah Wilson: This is the item on which the hon. minister promised to give the House how much more it cost the government than the return received, the cost of construction, the length of the line and so on.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The length of the line is 2,252 miles. The cost of construction was about $700,000. Staff salaries, $109,169 for the main line ; $12,680 for the branch line. Kents, repairs, travelling expenses on the main line, $54,000 and on the branch line, $4,430. Revenue so far, since the 1st July, Mr. INGRAM.
1899, $555,019.19. Revenue during the last fiscal year, $126,991. That is for the whole of the line, 2,000 mile system, Yukon and branches. The deficit is about $40,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Wbat number of messages in the Yukon district ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are not divided. I can only give the number sent on the line.


Andrew B. Ingram: In your report, you give the average number of messages in Ontario, Quebec, the Northwest, British Columbia and the Yukon. The average number on all the Yukon lines was 42,000 for 1903-4.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The exact number during- the last fiscal year was 47,982. What is referred to in the report is the yearly average of messages, and I suppose it must cover a certain number of years.


Andrew B. Ingram: How do the operating expenses compare with the receipts on the telegraph lines controlled by the government ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Last year the revenue was $147,000 and the expenditure $327,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is a big deficit.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It certainly is not a paying operation.


Andrew B. Ingram: That shows the importance of cutting off non-paying lines where there is competition.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: If a corporation puts in a line and the government gives no return, it certainly would not be fair to the country to keep it in operation.
Public Works-collection of revenue-telegraph service generally, $3,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This covers expenses in connection with Dominion Telegraph service : Printed blanks, form and stationery ; telegraph instruments and batteries; travelling expenses of staff at headquarters, and petty cash disbursements. The amount spent last year was $3,407.31.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does that include the Pelee Island service ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes, the expenditure on that under that head was $182.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN.: Referring again to the items for telegraph lines in the lower St. Lawrence and the maritime provinces, including the Marconi wireless, will the hon. minister please give us some explanation of what is being done with respect to the Marconi system ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are not working that system generally. There are only two places where we have stations using the Marconi system. When the cable does not serve, the Marconi system is used.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the hon. gentleman give me the information I asked for the


TUNE 16. 1905
[Stage Direction]
other night with reference to the reimbursements by the Dominion government to the government of Nova Scotia in connection with harbours ?
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 1 have here a copy of the Order in Council which I will send to the hon. gentleman.


Andrew B. Ingram: All I wish to know is whether these reimbursements were for expenditures since 1SG7, or before that time.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Since 1867.


Andrew B. Ingram: So, the statement of the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. McLennan) was not correct.
Public Works-chargeable to capital-harbours and rivers-transportation facilities- Georgian 'bay to Montreal, survey for waterway via French and Ottawa rivers, $157,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for carrying on during the present year an exhaustive survey of this proposed canal route! Last year $250,000 was voted, and that amount, I understand, has been expended up to this date. The distance to be covered is about 430 miles. The survey was begun immediately after the vote was taken last year, and no time will be lost in completing the same. As the committee is aware, this survey has been asked by all the interests affected.


Robert Laird Borden: To what interests does the hon. minister refer ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: All the counties bordering on the line of the proposed canal. These have urged the construction of the canal ; but, before undertaking the work ; it was found necessary to make a thorough survey.


Robert Laird Borden: Was the survey entered upon in pursuance of a policy to construct the work, or was it to determine whether it would be wise to adopt that policy ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We must assume that, if "the cost is not too great, it will be for the government to consider whether the work should be carried on or not. It has been represented that the work could be done for a relatively small amount. The survey will let us know, whether the work is feasible and what it will cost, and also whether development caused by the work will warrant the expenditure.


Robert Laird Borden: When is it expected that the work w 11 be completed ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The work is being carried on under the direction of the chief engineer of Public Works, Mr. Lafleur.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And who has charge under him.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is Mr. St. Laurent, engineer in charge, and Mr. Genest, engineer in charge. Then there are three district engineers, Mr. Chapleau, Mr. Rainboth, and
Mr. Coutiee. We have three parties in each district.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: When do you expect to finish ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In the month of September. The parties have been at work since August last. The total amount of $250,000 has been expended.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is this the same scheme which was launched some years ago by Mr. McLeod Stewart, of Ottawa ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Stewart's scheme,
I think, only contemplated a 12-foot canal'; but the surveys now going on contemplate depths ranging from 12 to 21 feet.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who decided on making the change from a 12-foot proposition to a 21-foot proposition V


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There has been no change made, but the government has decided to have a thorough survey. Representations have been made to the government that a 12-foot canal would be useless, and that if we want a serviceable work we had better contemplate a 21-foot channel.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who proposed that ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is not a proposition, it is only to get the necessary information to find out how much such a work will cost, whether it is feasible and whether the tratiic would warrant the expenditure.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I do not think the hon. gentleman understands my question. The first scheme, so far as I remember, was for a 12-foot canal. The hon. minister says now that information is asked for as to the probable cost of a 21-foot channel. Now, who is the man, or who is the party, who has suggested that change from a 12 to a 21-foot canal ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not know that any persons have been asking for a change, but we have decided to make a survey for a 21-foot channel to see whether such a work can be done or not. The government came to this decision last year. There were petitions and delegations from all the counties interested asking the government to make the survey.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Why was not Mr. Stewart's scheme accepted ?


Mr BRODEUR.: Because the information 'was not sufficient. Moreover, it is claimed with apparent reason, that if we decided to build a canal in that part of the country, it should be large enough to accommodate vessels drawing 21 feet of water. We already have our canal system in the southern part of the province, and what is the use of building a canal in the north only accommodating vessels of the same size ? i must say also that the surveys whiclj have already been made were not, properly speak-

ing, surveys, but simply examinations. Before undertaking a work of that magnitude we must have ample information, and tbe only way to obtain it is to send engineers to study carefully the feasibility and tbe probable cost, not only for a 12-foot channel, but even for a 21-foot channel, which jvould allow lake boats to pass through from Duluth and Chicago direct to Montreal, and even to Europe.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: 
Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It would become a matter of expense and no government would ask parliament to spend $150,000,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The only question now is whether it is desirable to spend that sum of money to collect that information. Some people will say that if they survey a 14-foo.t canal we will have information as to the cost and will be then in a position to discuss the advisability of building a canal.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Are the engineers collecting information as to how much it would cost for a 12, 14, or 21-foot canal ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes. When they were making these surveys it was just as well to have them determine the cost for a canal of the different depths. This is to collect the information and then the government will have to decide whether the work will be built or not.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And this will complete the expenditure in connection with the surveys ?
Mr: BRODEUR. Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The surveys would
cost $250,000.
f .^Ir' BRODEUR. I do not think my hon.
Si nnnWSth* a cr,lticise this appropriation. Suppose the canal were not built at present, oi m the near future; the important informa-Mr. BRODEUR.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: More than that. We have spent this year $250,000 and are asking $150,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: That will be over $400,000 ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: $400,000 in round numbers.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How can you spend that in a year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Salaries and supplies for the large staff required. The monthly pay list is $18,000 and then there are the supplies.
$o0I000^ERGERON' There is a revote of


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: When the estimates were made up in January, it was thought we would not spend the $250,000, but they work m the winter just as well as in summer so they spent the whole amount. There Is no revote properly speaking.
Some resolutions reported.

Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What do you take up on Monday ? The Prime Minister told me that the Alberta Bill was coming up on Monday.


Charles Fitzpatrick: As far as the Alberta Bill is concerned, if it is quite agreeable to the leader of the opposition to have it brought down on Tuesday that would be more satisfactory.


Robert Laird Borden: You are not going on on Monday.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I thought we would take the Autonomy Bill, that part of it, which has reference to the distribution of seats.


Robert Laird Borden: I understood informally and privately from the Prime Minister that you proposed proce'eding with the Autonomy Bill on Monday and he expected the House to get through with it next week.


Charles Fitzpatrick: After the conversation with my hon. friend the leader of the opposition occurred, it was found that it would be more convenient to take it up on Tuesday.


William Stevens Fielding: In that case we will proceed on Monday with the estimates and there may be some public Bills which we will take up first.


Uriah Wilson: The report of the committee on immigration only came down yesterday and we have not had time to investigate it. It would be more convenient not to take up the immigration estimates on Monday.


William Stevens Fielding: I think perhaps it could be arranged to deal with other interior estimates, keeping that for a little later. In any case if it should be taken up in my hon. friend's absence there will be an opportunity on the suplementary estimates for him to speak.


Uriah Wilson: I would prefer to speak on the main estimates.


William Stevens Fielding: If it is possible we will postpone the item.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think there ought to be any difficulty whatever about postponing.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.05 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 19, 1905.