1905-02-13

FIRST READING.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 55) to incorporate the Canada-Middlesex Railway Company.-Mr. Calvert.

[Stage Direction]
Report of the Department of Railways and Canals for the year ending 30th June, 1904.-Hon. H. R. Emmerson.
Mr. PATERSON.: 



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 45) respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company.-Mr. E. M. Macdonald.
Bill (No. 46) respecting the Canada Atlantic Railway Company.-Mr. E. M. Macdonald.
Bill (No. 48) respecting the Toronto and Hamilton Railway Company.-Mr. Calvert.
Bill (No. 49) respecting the Century Life Insurance Company.-Mr. Macpherson.
Bill (No. 50) to incorporate the Calgary and Battleford Railway Company.-Mr. Turriff.

[Stage Direction]
95th BATT - REDUCTION AND DISBANDMENT. .

Mr. S. J. JACKSON asked :: 1.	What is the amount still due on the loan made by the Dominion government for the relief of the Manitoba farmers during the grasshopper scourge in the years 1874 and 1875 ?
2.	Is it the intention of the government to remit such amount ? If not, why not ?


Right Hon.   S@: The amount still due upon the loan made by the Dominion government for relief during the grasshopper scourge of 1874-75, is about $34,000 exclusive of interest. The government do not see any reason for departing from the policy of the previous government, and think that this money should he repaid.


AGRICULTURAL IMPORTS FROM AND EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES.
Mr. CLEMENTS asked :: What were the imports of the following, imported into Canada for home consumption from United States, and the exports of same from Canada to the United States, and the duty on the same both ways, in the years 1903 and 1904 : (1) Amount of pork, bacon, hams, shoulders, &c.?	(2) Apples ?	(3) Wheat ?	(4) Corn ?
(5) Beans, raw, canned and otherwise ?	(6)
Cattle (7) Horses ?	(8) Wool ?	(9) Hides ?


William Paterson: My deputy informs me that this would require an answer at such length as to make it inconvenient to give it to the
House in this manner. If the hon. gentleman will let the question drop, we will hasten a return in every way.


Herbert Sylvester Clements: I ask for a return. LOBSTER LICENSES.
Mr. GANONG-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
Is it the intention of the government to issue any more licenses to can lobsters in district No.
I,	New Brunswick, for 1905, than those named in a reply to a question on February 6th, vis.:
J.	Ingersoll, E. A Holmes., Connors Bros., Burnham & Morrell ?


Right Hon.   S@: As at present advised, it is not the intention of the government to issue any more licenses.


GRAIN SURVEY BOARDS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Who are the members of the grain survey boards of Toronto and of Montreal, appointed by the Governor in Council, under the authority of clause 32, 4 Edward VII., chapter 14?
2.	Of those appointed for Toronto, who were so named on recommendation of the Board of Trade of Toronto '?
3.	Of those appointed for Montreal, who were named on the recommendation of the Board of Trade of Montreal ?
4.	Were any of the appointments for Montreal named by the government without the recommendation of the Montreal Board of Trade ?
Hon. Sir WILLIAM MULOCK (Minister of Customs) :: 1.	For Montreal :	Thos. A. Crane, C. B.
Esdaile, Alex. McFee, J. S. Norris, A. G. Thomson, E. S. Jaques. For Toronto : Thomas Flynn, W. D. Matthews, Hedley Shaw, C. W. Band, J. L. Spink, John Car-rick, H. N. Baird, J. D. Flavelle, J. C. Mc-Keggie, W. E. Milner.
2.	Thomas Flynn, W. D. Matthews, Hedley Shaw, C. W. Band, J. L. Spink, John Carrick, H. N. Baird, J. D. Flavelle, J. C. McKeggie, W. E. Milner.
3.	O. B. Esdaile, A. G. Thomson, E. S. Jaques.
4.	Yes.


PURCHASE OF COAL FOR INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY.
Mr. DANIEL asked :: 1.	How much coal was purchased by the Intercolonial Railway from the Beersville Coal and Railway Company during the year ending December 31st, 1904, and at what price per ton?
2.	What was the quality or value of this coal for steam purposes, as shown by its use on the Intercolonial Railway ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 1.	1,2463 tons. $3.25 per ton.
2.	Fuel inspector has not had the opportunity of testing the quality or value of this

coal, but in speaking to engineers and firemen, they say it is fairly good steam coal.


BLANK BALLOTS FOR DOMINION ELECTIONS.
Mr. SPROULE asked :: 1.	What is the custom of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery in issuing the blank ballots used in the Dominion elections ? How many ballots are contained on each sheet of paper ?
2.	Is the paper on which the ballots are printed issued direct from the Printing Bureau to the several returning officers throughout Canada, or does it go through the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery ?
3.	Are the sheets of ballot paper carefully counted before being sent out, and Is a record kept of the number of sheets sent to each returning officer ? If so, under whose supervision was this done ?
4.	After the issue of the sheets of ballot paper to the several returning officers for the last Dominion elections, wras any complaint made to the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, or to the Clerk of the Crown In Chancery, by any returning officer, or by his subordinates, or by any printing establishment, that' the requisite number of sheets of paper for such constituency or constituencies had not been furnished, or that the actual number of sheets was less than that which the returning officer was credited with having received ?
5.	If so, in what constituency or constituencies did this occur, and what action was taken on such complaint ?


Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister):: 1.	The main principles are :	(a) To deal
with no one but returning officers, (d) To have no broken packages. The ballots are issued in sheets of 4 and 2 according to the sample which I lay on the table.
2.	The ballots are issued direct from the Printing Bureau to the returning officers throughout Canada without the intervention of tlie Clerk of the Crown iu Chancery.
3.	The sheets are carefully counted before being packed. They are sent out in closed packages of three sizes only, viz : Packages of 2,000 in fours and of 1,000 and of 500 in twos. The packages are not opened after being counted. The smaller packages are used for uneven or broken thousands. The counting is done in the bindery, after cutting, by skilled bauds aud under the supervision of tlie foreman of the bindery. The packages are then finally closed and pasted up.
4.	After the issue of the ballots, applications were received by the King's Printer from returning officers where the supply was insuificieut. In all such cases the additional ballots required by the returning officer were sent to him, but always in whole packages. No ballots whatever were sent to any printing office but they were sent cut iu sealed bags by registered post to the returning officers. No communications from others than returning officers were entertained.


Mr. EMMERSON.: 5.	Two complaints were made that the count of the ballot paper was wrong. One was from South Lanark the other was from Ottawa. In the case of South Lanark no additional supply was asked for. It was a question of count. In the case of Ottawa an additional quantity of 1,000 ballots was delivered to the returning officer.


DIPPER HARBOUR BREAKWATER, N.B.
Mr. DANIEL asked :: 1.	Who is doing the work of construction of Dipper Harbour breakwater in St. John's County, N.B. ?
2.	Was the work let by tender ? If so, who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender ?


Hon. CHARLES S. HYMAN (Acting Minis ter of Public Works):: 1.	Messrs. Lyons aud White.
2.	Yes. The two following tenders were
received, viz:
Lyons and White	$45,485
Flood and Bates	 45,800


LIFEBOAT CREWS, N.S.
Mr. SINCLAIR asked :: 1.	How many life boat crews, under the management of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, are stationed on the coast of Nova Scotia ?
2.	What are the names of the places where so stationed ?
3.	What is the name and address of each cockswain in charge in each case, and what is the number of each crew ?
4.	What amount was expanded during the last fiscal year to maintain each of the said ?


Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister):: 1.	Thirteen.
2.	Blanche, Devil's Island, Clarke's Harbour, Duncan's Cove, Herring Cove, Mud Island, Pictou Island, Port Mouton, Seal Island, White Head, Yarmouth, iSt. Paul's Island, Scatarie.
3.	Blanche ; W. A. B. Smith, crew 7, address Blanche. Clarke's Harbour; Thomas W. Nickerson, crew 7, address Clarke's Harbour. Seal Island ; H. Hitchens, crew 7, address, Seal Island. White Head ; H. P. Munroe, crew 7, address, White Head, Duncan's Cove ; J. W. Holl, crew 7, address, Duncan's Cove. Herring Cove; J. Gorman, crew 7, Herring Cove. Mud Island ; supplied and kept up by Mud Island Lobster Company. Scatarie ; J. T. Martell, crew 7, address, Scatarie. Baker's Cove ; A. Kane, crew 7, address, Yarmouth. Devil's Island; Geo. D. Young, crew 7, address, Devil's Island. Port Mouton ; Walter Cook, crew 7, address, Port Mouton. St. Paul's Island ; kept up by light-house staff. Pictou Island ; Alex. Currie, crew 7, address, Pictou Island.
4.	Blanche, $305.96 ; Devil's Island. $237.22 ; Clarke's Harbour, $248.84 ; Duncan's Cove, $270.60 ; Herring Cove, $485.56 ;

Pictou Island, $317.69 ; Port Mouton, $272.97 ; Seal Island, $1,316.47 ; White Head, $316.44 ; Yarmouth or Baker's Cove, $276 ; Scatarie, $532.90.


EXPORT OF GRASS SEEDS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. COCKSHUTT-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	What was the quantity and value of our exports of red clover, alsike and timothy seed, respectively, for the years 1902, 1903 and 1904 ?
2.	From what ports was said seed exported ?
3.	To what country or countries was said seed exported ?
Right Hon.   S@: The statistical reports make no distinction as to the classes of kinds of clover or gl ass seeds exported, they being classed simply as clover seed or grass seed as the case may be.
1.	The quality and value of Canadian clover and grass seed exported during the fiscal years 1902, 1903 and 1904 respectively were as follows :
fiscal Years.	Clover Seed.	Grass	Seed.Bush.	$	Bush.	$1902	192,825	1,201,678	107,765	88,1931903	. 113,490	839,459	65,324	75,4641904	230,484	1,337,139	101.853	77,8252.	The ports from which these seeds wereexported were :	Montreal, St. Armand,
Coaticook, Abercorn, Winnipeg, Niagara Falls, St. John, N.B., Halifax, North Sydney, Prescott, Sault Ste. Marie, Bridgeburg, Kingston, Picton, Windsor, Sarnia, Stanstead, Hemmingford, Victoria, Charlottetown, Quebec and AVallaceburg.
3.	The countries to which exported were : Great Britain, Belgium, United States, Denmark, Germany, Australia, Holland, New Zealand, France, Newfoundland, Norway and Sweden, St. Pierre.


LEASE OF PROPERTY IN MONTREAL FOR IMMIGRATION SERVICE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Has the government recently purchased, or is it about' to purchase, a property on St. Antoine street, in St. Joseph's ward of the city of Montreal, for occupation in connection with the Dominion immigration service, or for any other purpose ?
2.	If so, what is the street number, the cadastral division and subdivision, and the area of said property ?
3.	What was the purchase price paid or agreed upon ?
4.	From whom was the property purchased ?
5.	Who negotiated the sale, and what commission was paid, and to whom, on the transaction ?
Hon. CHAS. HYMAN (Acting Minister of Public Works).: No. The premises, No. 306 St. Antoine street, Montreal, have been leased from the Rodier Estate for fifteen months, from January 21. 1905, at a rental of $1,000 per year. The immigrant hospital for the treatment of trachoma will be located therein.


STEAMER ' DE LEVIS.'
Mr. LEWIS asked :: 1.	Who is the owner of the steamship ' De Levis,' employed by the government in connection with the hydrographical survey of the River St. Lawrence ?
2.	What was the total amount paid by the government for the use of the said steamer during 1904 ?
3.	How many days was she in use by the government ?
4.	What officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries were employed in this work ; how long was each in service and what' remuneration did each receive ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries :
1.	The government of the Dominion of Canada.
2.	The government being the owner, nothing was paid for use.
3.	About 210 days or the whole season of navigation.
4.	Mr. P. E. Parent, $2,000 per annum, employed since 1898 ; Mr. Ckas. E. Mc-Greevy, $1,500 per annum, employed since 1898; Mr. Arthur Amos, $1,800 per annum, employed since 1898; Mr. A. R. Decary, $1,500 per annum, employed since 1900; Mr. John Ilouliston, $1,200 per annum, employed since 1901.


DOMINION LIGHTHOUSE DEPOT. KINGSTON.
Mr. MONK asked:: 1.	What is the total area and the cadastral designation of the property acquired by the government for the establishment of a Dominion lighthouse depot at Kingston ?
2.	What were the prices paid ?
3.	Who were the vendors, and what were the commissions on the sale, and to whom paid ?
Rt. ,Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries :	>
1.	The government has no lighthouse depot at Kingston.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.


PURCHASE OF CARBIDE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Lancaster-asked:
1.	What quantity of carbide for acetylene gas lighting has been purchased or manufactured
[Stage Direction]
by the Department of Marine and Fisheries since July 1st, 1903 ?
2.	From whom have the purchases been made?
3.	What have been the prices paid ?
4.	Were tenders called for by public advertisement ? If not, why not ?
5.	Do any contracts exist for future supply ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries :
1.	187 1-5 tons purchased; none manufactured.
2.	From the Ottawa Carbide Company.
3.	$65 per ton.
4.	No; tenders were not called as carbide was purchased at wholesale rates in small quantities as required.
5.	No.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LALOR-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Were the buildings and constructions of the government, in connection with the Dominion lighthouse depot at Kingston, erected by contract ?
2.	If so, were public tenders called ; in what newspapers, and on what dates were they advertised ?
3.	What tenders were received ; what were the offers, and who received the contract ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries :
1.	I have again to repeat that the government has no lighthouse depot at Kingston.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. AMES-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1. Has the government recently purchased, as a site for a mail distributing station, property in the city of Montreal, opposite the Bonaven-ture station of the Grand Trunk Railway ?
*2. If so, what were the cadastral numbers and subdivisions of said property ?
3.	What was the total area purchased ?
4.	Who were the previous owners ?
5.	What price was paid ?
6.	Who was the agent through whom the transaction was carried on. and what was the amount of his commission ?
Hon. CHAS. HYMAN (Acting Minister of Public Works):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Cadastral lot 731 and northeast half of 732, St. Joseph's ward.
3.	Area 13,395 feet.
4.	Owner of lot 731, Mrs. McCrory, of lot 732, Mrs. Myler.
5.	For lot 731, $25,000 and for half lot 732,

6.	U. H. Dandurand, of Montreal, commission 5 per cent. His work, however, was not confined to the simple purchase of the property, as in the case of the Myler property he had to look up the title, attend the judicial sale, as on account of the substitu-


Mr. AMES.: tion, which called for court intervention, obtained information re: tenants, value of surrounding property, age and value of buildings on site, &c.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
Copies of all correspondence, petitions, resolutions, reports, memoranda, in possession of the government, or any member thereof, relating to the survey and construction of branch railway lines in the province of Prince Edward Island. Also the number of surveys made in the province since 1900, the routes survey, and the cost of each.
Mr.   A.@: Martin.
Copies of all correspondence-, and despatches between the government of Canada and the Imperial government, in regard to the establishment of a branch of the Royal mint of Canada.-Mr Monk.
Return showing the respective dates of appointments of the commissioners and working staff of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Commission and the total amount expended thereon to December 31, 1904, under the heads : (a) salaries of -commissioners ;	(b) salaries of
staff ;	(c) expenses ;	(d) rental of quarters.-
Mr. Foster.
Statement showing the amount of money expended by the Dominion government since the first day of July, 1873, for constructing, equipping, and subsidizing railways and canals, separately, in Canada ; adding thereto the value of land given as subsidies, on the basis of one dollar value per acre ; and adding further thereto the total estimated liability incurred by Canada on account of the building of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. Also a statement showing separately the part of such expenditure made or to be made as above, on railways and canals separately in each province of Canada, and the Northwest Territories, deducting any sums that may have been charged any of the provinces or the Northwest Territories in their debt account with the Dominion of Canada.-Mr. A. Martin.
Copies of all correspondence in reference to the building of a new boat to be employed to maintain winter communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland of Canada. The engineer's and inspector's report of the present condition of the ss. ' Stanley ' now on that route ; the repairs made ; the damage sustained by contact with heavy ice ; and any other information in regard to her age, class, &c., in any of the Government departments.- Mr. A. Martin.
Copies of all correspondence had with the government, or any member thereof, or any official under the government, relative to the appointment of returning oflicers for the county of Dorchester, Quebec, for the general election of 1904, and relative to the resignation of any one so appointed.-Mr. Morin.
Return showing what contracts for public works, or for supplies, have been awarded since July 1st, 1903, to other than the lowest tenderer, in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, by the authority of the Governor in Council, in the manner set forth in clause 6 of the Act 55-56 Victoria, chapter 17. Also for the names and offers of all unsuccessful tenderers in every such ease, and for the reasons why any such lowest tenderer was passed over.-Mr. Lewis.

Return giving unabridged copies of all applications for the improvement of the lighthouse service, the establishment of additional aids to navigation and cognate matters received by the Lighthouse Board since the said board was constituted ; setting forth what action has been taken by the board upon each application, and also indicating what recommendations of said board have received the approval of the Honourable the Minister of Marine and Fisher-es.-Mr. Lewis.
Return showing the names of all persons added to the pay-roll of the Meterological service, permanently or temporarily, since June, 30, 1904, and the amount received by each to date.-Mr. Monk.
Copies of all correspondence between the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Submarine Signal Company, of Boston, U.S.A., including all contracts or agreements which may have been entered into between the aforesaid parties.-Mr. Monk.
Return showing all contracts which have since July 1st, 1903, been made or renewed by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, with any person or company, for the placing, maintenance or care of harbour buoys ; giving in each case the name of the approved contractor, the annual amount of his contract, and time of its expiry ; and further indicating in what instances public tenders were not called for, and in what instances the lowest tenders were not accepted.-Mr. Ames-by Mr. Monk.


GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY PLANS.
Mr. A. C. BOYCE (Algoma West) moved :: For a return containing a copy of the plan or plans deposited by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company with the Department of Railways and Canals, showing the proposed terminal point or points on the Pacific coast. Also for a copy of the plan or plans deposited by the said company for terminal points at Port Arthur, Fort William and Winnipeg.


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: There are no plans deposited and approved in the Department of Railways and Canals. Therefore this motion could not very well pass.


Hon. JOHN HAGGART.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyce) did not say ' approved.'


Henry Robert Emmerson: They cannot be dealt with unless they are approved. It would not be proper to bring them before the public ; that might very well serve the interests of those who wished to indulge in speculation, hut I do not think it would serve the public interest.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Have any plans whatever been deposited whether approved or not ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: They have not been approved.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I asked if any have been deposited ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Yes.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, some plans have been placed there, but they have not been approved.


John Graham Haggart: Did I understand that this question was to stand or is it refused ?


Wilfrid Laurier: The attitude of the government is that as these plans have been deposited, but not approved, they cannot be brought down. I supposed this would commend itself to the sentiment of my hon. friend (Mr. Boyce) and therefore I understood that the hon. member would not proceed with his motion.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: We would like to consider that a little ; there may be something in what is said, but I am not absolutely sure that this is right.
Motion allowed to stand.


LABOUR UNION LABELS.
[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 10) respecting Labour Union Labels.-Mr. Ralph Smith.
Robert Laird Borden: When this Bill was in committee before, I understood from the Minister of Justice that he had some observations to make on the subject, and also that he would prepare and put in proper form certain suggestions which had emanated from some members of the committee and which my hon. friend who is moving the Bill (Mr. Smith) seemed prepared to accept rather than have any further discussion. I observe that the Minister of Justice is not here this afternoon.


Wilfrid Laurier: The observation of my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) is quite correct ; the minister (Mr. Fitzpatrick) was to look into the point which was suggested to the House by my hon. friend from St. John and Iberville (Mr. _Demers). Unfortunately the Minister of Justice has to be absent from the House to-day and therefore I would move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Progress reported.


CERTIFICATES TO MASTERS AND MATES.
[Stage Direction]
On the order :
Second reading of Bill (No. 44) to amend the Act' respecting certificates to masters and mates.-Mr. Lancaster.
Wilfrid Laurier: I would ask to have this order stand.


Mr. LANCASTER.: I suppose that in the absence of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries-


Wilfrid Laurier: And the Minister of Justice also.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Yes>
it would not be advisable to go on with this Bill. As two private members' days have been taken and as we are anxious to have a discussion on this Bill, although of course in the absence of the ministers, we could not very well have it to-day, I would ask the Prime

Minister to assist me to have it discussed at some future date if the taking away of the private members' days should interfere with it ?


Wilfrid Laurier: tainly.
Most cer-



SUPPLY-FREE TRANSPORTATION OF HAY ON I.C.R.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['No.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Paterson, House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.', 'Tuesday, February 14, 1905.']
Hon. GEO. E. FOSTER.: Before we go into Supply, I would ask the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson) if he will kindly facilitate the return to an order of the House in reference to the hay transported on the Intercolonial Railway. We would like to have it as soon as we possibly can.


Hon.   II@: It. EMMERSON. I mav say that the papers very largely were at Moncton and the certificates have to be gathered up at the different points all along the line. This requires considerable work, but we are expediting it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to. and House went into Committee of Supply.
['It. EMMERSON. I mav say that the papers very largely were at Moncton and the certificates have to be gathered up at the different points all along the line. This requires considerable work, but we are expediting it.']
George Eulas Foster: Before we go on I would like to suggest to the minister that it would be well to take up first those departments on which we have the Auditor General's Repoit. The other night we went! on with some of the subsidies as to which that was not the case, but I think it was with the understanding that we should confine ourselves to those until we had worked out the departments on which the Auditor General had reported. The Department of Public-Works is in this category. With regard to some at least of the steamship subsidies, we would like to have the Auditor General's Report before we pass from them. Of course, if the minister has a mind to go on with them, and let such items stand as we want a little more information on. the House having the privilege of taking any of them up again when the Auditor General's Report is down, I think that would be satisfactory.


William Paterson: If the hon. member w ill agree to take up the steamship subsidies to-day, I think it will please the Minister of Public Works who is very busy in his department to-day, and who asked me as a special favour to go on with these. Tomorrow he will be ready to go on with his estimates. We will take what we can, with the full understanding that we may go back, as the hon. gentleman suggests.
Steam communication during the season ot 1905, i.e., from the opening to the closing of navigation, between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, $12,500.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: 


William Paterson: There is no change. The date of the contract is the 15th of March, 1900; it expires the 31st of December, 1905. The contractors are the Charlottetown Steam Navigation Co.. The steamships are the 'Northumberland,' of 1,255 tons gioss, and the ' Princess,' of 541 tons gross. The terminal ports are Charlottetown, P.E.I., and Pictou, N.S.; Summerside, P.E. I., and Point du Chene, N.B. The speed of the ' Princess ' is 121 knots and that of the ' Northumberland ' 15 knots. They provide a daily service between the points mentioned and a full round trip and they carry the mails.


Mr. A. MARTIN.: Has the department any proposals with regard to putting on a new boat and increasing the subsidy?


William Paterson: Communications have passed between the company and the department and they are under consideration, but no change is involved in the vote now asked for. If another boat were put on or a new contract made, it would be necessary, I think, to have a supplementary vote.


Alexander Martin: Is the contract renewed?


William Paterson: I suppose the contract could be renewed during the summer.


Alexander Martin: I may state that the Board of Trade of Charlottetown passed a resolution complaining of the high rates which shippers and passengers have to pay on these boats. They also complain that while the company has a very good boat on the Summerside route, the ' Princess', which at present runs between Charlottetown and Pictou, is one which has outlasted her usefulness to a great extent, and that the large increase of trade between those two points require a much larger boat. I understand Hat the company are willing to put on a much larger boat, but they cannot do it with the subsidy now given. I notice that the subsidy immediately preceding this one, for communication between the mainland and the Magdalen Islands, amounts to $15,000. I am not complaining of that, but the minister and the House know that the service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland is one which the Dominion government is pledged by the terms of confederation to maintain, and the sums voted for it are ridiculously small. This steam navigation company has done a great service to the province, but the accommodation at Charlottetown at present is not equal to what the public demands. I may say that the freight on 100 lbs. of goods of the first class from St. John, N.B., to Sydney, a distance of 400 miles, is only 30c, whereas the rate from St. John to Charlottetown, a distance of only 190 miles, is 59c. This large rate is to a great extent owing to the heavy freights charged by this company, but the company says there is no remedy unless the subsidy is increased. I hope, therefore,

that when the supplementary estimates come down there will be a further vote to increase this subsidy. The trade between the province and the mainland is rapidly increasing, and it requires much better accommodation than is at present provided, especially between Charlottetown and Pic-tou.


Mr. EDWARD M. MACDONALD.: With inference to the request of my hon. friend from Queen's, I would like to point out that there is one condition in regard to this proposed vote which seems to be applicable to every proposition that relates to communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. That is the proposition that these boats and services should be conducted entirely in the interests of Prince Edward Island, and for the sole benefit of the people of that province. I may say that those who are interested in the company which owns the boats for which this vote has been given belong entirely to Prince Edward Island. My hon. friend is quite right in stating that the service is inefficient, and that the boat now running between Charlottetown and Pictou is not at all satisfactory or fitted to cope with the large trade which has grown up and the passenger traffic between the two points. But this company has earn-' ed large dividends and has a large amount at rest, which it proposes to utilize for the purpose of obtaining a new boat; and those who live on the mainland and have occasion sometimes to visit this garden of the gulf would like to see these gentlemen who own the boats which are earning these large dividends run them with some consideration for the requirements of the people who have not the advantage of living in that favoured locality, and the government should see that they do so before granting any further favours. Should any one who happens to live on the mainland desire to visit the island, he cannot do so in less than three days, both going and returning, no matter from what part of Nova Scotia he may start. Therefore, before this company is given the slightest increase of subsidy, the government should see that it runs its boats from Charlottetown to Pictou in such a way that people living in Nova Scotia will be able to go to Charlottetown and return within twenty-four hours at least. There is no particular reason why that should not be done, and no reason why the population in Nova Scotia and the maritime provinces generally should not receive some attention from the management of this service. I need hardly remind my hon. friend that this particular company, not so very long ago, was very active in opposing before this parliament a proposition to give another company a charter to engage in this same service ; and I am therefore not asking anything unreasonable when I ask that the government shall insist, before giving this company any additional subsidy or renewal
of contract on its placing upon the route between Charlottetown and Pictou a larger and more commodious steamer than the one it has at present. And further, that this company should be compelled to so arrange the sailings of its boats that it would be possible for any one to leave Pictou in the morning and go to Charlottetown and return at night, instead of following the present system of having both boats leave the island in the morning, thus rendering it impossible for any one to get to and fro in any period less than three days.


Alexander Martin: I agree with my hon. friend that when the government subsidizes these boats their hours of sailing should be subject to -the approval of the government. The allegation that the company is very wealthy, is one that is considerably disputed, and I am not aware that it is a matter of record that it has a large rest. If any company in Nova Scotia is ready to take hold of the service, there is nothing to prevent their getting to work ; but hitherto the boat on the Summerside route has given every satisfaction, although I must say that the boat on the route between Charlottetown and Pictou is not at all adequate for the traffic, and should be replaced by a better one. Whether or not the service can be performed with the present subsidy is very doubtful, especially if the freights are kept as low as they are on other routes. We contend that the rates from any point in Canada to any point in Charlottetown should not exceed any charged on the Intercolonial Railway in other parts of Canada. Prince Edward Island has suffered extremely in that respect. The freights on those boats are extremely high. Whether that be due to the fact that the subsidy is not large enough, is one on which I am not prepared to express an opinion, but the subsidy is certainly not large. I see that we give a much larger subsidy to the service to Magdalen Island. I hope, however, that the hon. minister will see that some improvement is effected, and that is the only reason why I call his attention to the matter.


William Paterson: I take it that no fault was found with the steamer which runs between Summerside and .Point Du Chene. which makes fifteen knots an hour, but that it is the boat which runs between Pictou and Charlottetown, that only makes twelve knots an hour, that is complained of.
Steam communication from July 1st, 1905, to June 30th, 1906, between Grand Manan and the mainland, $5,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in that.


George Eulas Foster: What boats are doing the business ?


William Paterson: The Grand Manan Steamship Company are the contractors.

There is only one boat, and it carries the mails.
Steam communication during the year 1905, i.e., for not less than 52 full round weekly trips between St. John and Halifax, via Yarmouth and other way ports, $10,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in that contract. It does not expire until 1908.


Robert Laird Borden: What steamer performs that service ?-


William Paterson: William Thompson & Co., are the contractors. It carries the mails.


George Eulas Foster: Speaking generally with regard to all these boats, what attention does the Department of Trade and Commerce give to these different carriers so as to be informed whether they are really of service, whether their trade is increasing, and what value they are giving for the money. Some of these are valuable because communication should be kept up between the points. But most of these subsidies are paid because they are in aid of trade and commerce. A number of years ago, we made a very careful revision of the subsidies paid, and considerable changes were made. A number were cut off as not being useful, some were reduced, some were increased, and one or two new ones put on in the places of those cut off. That is, we thought it well to take stock and see whether we were paying money where there was no adequate return to the public. The list is largely increasing, I find. We are paying here $968 -000-practically a million dollars in subsidies for services across the Atlantic, to West India and on local routes. I suppose the* Trade and Commerce Department in some way gets at the facts with reference to these services, the volume of trade and the increase or decrease in that volume, in order that it may know whether it is right to continue or discontinue the service, or whether it would be better to increase the subsidy- because it is evidently poor policy to pay a certain amount for an inferior service if, by doubling the payment, you can secure an adequate service and increase trade between the ports touched at. Is there any system of gathering information which could serve the department and the House in judging as to the usefulnesss of these subsidies, which of them are paying, what future there is for each and, where a service is not really effective, what means would be taken to improve it ?


William Paterson: I understand from the deputy of the department that reports are received, but I do not know that they cover the information referred to. I suppose the contract provides for the carrying out of certain considerations, and this is done. But I gather that the only other information is in the form of complaints from parties who object that the contracts are not carried Mr. PATERSON.
out. I understand the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) to ask if there is any systematic report from which the House could judge whether the subsidy has been effective in promoting trade. I understand that there are no such reports.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: Would it not be a good idea for the government, through some minister, to make a statement reviewing this whole vote, so that the House and the country might be able to judge whether it is conferring any benefit. If this cannot be done this year it should be understood that the government will be prepared next year to justify these votes or to suggest some improvement. An expenditure so great as this should certainly be reviewed on the basis of information by the House, that the public may know whether they are getting any thing for their money.


William Paterson: I may supplement what I said by what the deputy minister now tells me. It does not contradict what I said before but adds to it. Before payment is made the customs officers and postal authorities have to sign certificates that the work imposed by the contract has been properly performed. That, of course, does not necessarily affect the question of increase in internal commerce through the subsidy. It does show that there is some supervision and that subsidies are not paid with out assurance that the service has been performed. But I do not think there is any information before the department bearing upon the question of the effect of these subsidies in increasing trade.


Mr. SPROULE.: That, however, is the important part of it. Subsidies were given first in iiopes of developing trade by that means. I know that, in some cases, the Minister of Trade and Commerce stated to the House that the subsidy was given in anticipation of developing a good trade. If it is found that trade cannot be developed by this means, it would be wise to stop the subsidy. There should be some data presented to the House to enable it to judge of the usefulness of these subsidies, and so to justify our action in voting them.


George Eulas Foster: The minister will see that the supervision he speaks of is merely mechanical supervision. Certificates are demanded showing that certain trips were made. But whether the vessel sailed light cr full laden is not shown. I make the suggestion I do because I think if it were carried out it would help in the intelligent consideration of this question. And the question must be considered sooner or later, because the country will not go on voting a million dollars for steamship services without demanding to know whether value is received or not. Demands are coming in for new services, and, as all demands cannot be met, we must judge for which our money should be spent. There are custom house

officers who could give information, and the officers of the vessels themselves could return the volume of trade from year to year and also the kind of trade, which would be valuable information for the House to have as showing the development of the inter-port commerce of the country. The minister said that complaints have been made as to some of these services. I suppose these complaints have been investigated. If not, they ought to be. Then, by simple process of reporting in answer to questions framed and sent out by the department to the proper officers of the government and of the vessels themselves, much information could be gathered. If that has not been done, I hope that before next year it will be done, for we must look at these things from a business point of view and not give subsidies simply because certain persons ask for them, but because they are in the public interest.


Mr. DANIEL.: The steamer that performs this service was equipped specially for this route and this purpose, and I presume that she was built of such a size and character as would enable her adequately to perform the service expected of her.


William Paterson: Speaking individually, it seems to me that the remarks of the member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) are very practical, and I do not see that it is at all an impossible thing to get what he requires. Also speaking personally, and with such knowledge as I have, I should think it would be very important that we should have that information. Is it wise to keep this thing on at all ? On the other hand, if the traffic is greatly increased, do they require as much subsidy as they are getting ? I think the observation is a practical one, and well worthy of consideration, and I have no doubt it will be brought to the minister's attention through the ' Hansard.' Further than that, I cannot say, but it seems to me it is a practical suggestion, and that some way ought to be found of carrying it out.


William Findlay Maclean: Is not that the very work this Department of Trade and Commerce was created for ? Some years ago a new department called the Department of Trade and Commerce was created at a large expense, and a minister was put in charge of it, and this matter especially was one of those to come under his control. The hon. gentleman in assuming a responsibility of that kind should be prepared to justify all these expenditures, and to give a general report and review of the situation. I hope that next year, if not this year, parliament will be given some information from the Minister of Trade and Commerce in regard to this very item. It is a large item, and concerns the development of our trade, and we ought to have some report from him showing whether the money we are spending is developing our trade or not.
Steam communication during the season ot 1905, that, from the opening to the closing of navigation, between St. John and Minas Basin ports, $3,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What boat is that ? Mr. PATERSON. The 'Brunswick.' There is no change from last year.
Steam communication from July 1st, 1905, to June 30th, 1906, between Pictou, Murray Harbour, Georgetown and Montague Bridge, $1,200.


George Eulas Foster: What boat is doing that work ?


William Paterson: The ' Eleetra.'


George Eulas Foster: What is the tonnage ?


William Paterson: I have not the tonnage.


Alexander Martin: I know this vessel, it is not of large tonnage, but she is performing an excellent service. She makes weekly trips, and has been of great advantage to the people on the route.


William Paterson: She calls at Bridge Point, Murray Harbour north, Murray Harbour south, and Murray river.


George Eulas Foster: The minister might take a note of it and tell us on another occasion.
Steam communication from July 1st, 1905, to June 30th, 1906, between Quebec and Gaspe Basin, touching at intermediate ports, $8,500.


William Paterson: That touches at a great many ports. The vessel is the ' Gas-pesia', of 490 tons gross, and 287 tons net, ICO feet long by 27 feet broad.


Mr. INGRAM.: Have any changes been made in the figures of this item from last year ?


William Paterson: There was an increase, I am told.


Andrew B. Ingram: What was the figure brought down in the estimates last year ?


William Paterson: $7,500 in the main estimates, and then $1,000 extra in the sup-plementaries.


Hon.   I@: The increase of $1,000 in this service was given to pay her for stopping at a greater number of ports. Formerly the boat only stopped at intermediate ports in the county of Gaspe, and last year there was a request that came from several localities in the county of Rimouski to be benefited by her service, and the boat now stops at five or six additional ports, for which $1,000 additional is given. I may say that this boat gives a very good service to that coast. As the hon. gentleman knows, there is no communication from Summit or Metis, on the Intercolonial with the other side of the peninsula, as far as Paspebiac. It is a mountainous region, and there are several little coves on the coast, and settlements of

fishermen, who now can send their fish to Quebec, Montreal and other places by this boat.


George Eulas Foster: What general work does a boat like that do ?


Mr. LEMIEUX.: It carries something like 200 passengers, I think 150 second class and 50 first class.


George Eulas Foster: How many trips does she give ?


William Paterson: Two round trips a month.


George Eulas Foster: vVhat is the distance ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think it is something like 800 miles.


George Eulas Foster: How many knots ?
Mr. LEMIEUa. About 11 knots.
Steam communication between a port or ports in Prince Edward Island and a port or ports in Great Britain, $7,000.
(Mr. ANGUS A. McLEAN. I think this service could be greatly improved. There was great dissatisfaction in the province with reference to the time of sailings of these vessels, and the rates of freight charged. The shippers claim that the contract should provide explicitly for same freight rates charged in Montreal, St. John and Halifax. These vessels in many cases charged higher rates than could be obtained at either Montreal, St. John or Halifax.


William Paterson: I believe only $2,500 were paid last year, because they had not carried out the full requirements of the contract.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN.: Shippers in Prince Edward Island are anxious to obtain boats under the contract to run to Liverpool as that market suits most of them better than Manchester. Is it the intention of the government to arrange for such a service ?


William Paterson: The subject is under consideration, I am told, now, a decision not having yet been arrived at. The parties who had the contract before were the Manchester Liners, Limited. The steamship was the ' Manchester Trader', 3,318 tons gross. This vessel ran apparently between Manchester and Charlottetown. A subsidy of $7,000 was granted but only $2,500 of this was earned.


Angus Alexander McLean: How many trips were made ?


William Paterson: One trip only.


George Eulas Foster: Was the contract for a summer service?


William Paterson: The contract provided for two complete round trips, the first prior to October, 1904, and the second prior to December 15, 1904. But, they only made one trip.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 


George Eulas Foster: The hon. minister ought to give some reason why they did not make both trips.


Angus Alexander McLean: I understand that during 1903, only $1,500 was paid for one trip. Why should they be paid $2,500 for the same service last year ?


William Paterson: It is explained to me that $2,500 was paid last season. The $1,500 to which the hon. gentleman refers was a sum that was held back because of a dispute with some of the shippers. But, the dispute being finally adjusted the claim was paid. The steamship company settled with the shippers and their claim was paid. I suppose the hon. gentleman is more anxious to know what we are going to do in the future.


George Eulas Foster: No, I do not understand that explanation quite.


William Paterson: I understand that there were $1,500 claimed by the steamship company.


George Eulas Foster: On what?


William Paterson: On subsidy and that there was a dispute between them and the shippers. The $1,500 was held back until they made a satisfactory arrangement with the shippers.


George Eulas Foster: What kind of an arrangement was that?


William Paterson: I do not know.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the hon. gentleman may make it plain by informing the committee as to what is the basis of payment. Is it so much per trip or is it in proportion of the freight carried?


William Paterson: The basis seems to be, from the information before me, that this was a subsidy of $7,000 to complete two round voyages. It is provided that the freight rates are not to be greater between the ports mentioned than those between Montreal and Manchester and it is probable under that clause of the contract that a question would arise as to that between the steamship company and the shippers. I am supposing that. It looks a reasonable supposition, does it not? Owing to the fact of the shippers not being satisfied in reference to this a portion of the subsidy amounting to $1,500 was kept back until they arranged with the shippers and the matter having been satisfactorily arranged the $1,500 was paid.


George Eulas Foster: What was the complaint?


William Paterson: It appears that a large quantity of live stock that was to be sent over in this boat had been taken to certain ports at which the steamer did not call. Therefore a great deal of loss was inflicted upon those parties who expected to ship by the steamer and for that

reason tlie steamship company had to settle with these people. Complaints had reached the Department of T:-ade and Commerce and they retained $1,500 of the amount claimed by the company until a satisfactory settlement was made. A settlement haying been made they paid the amount.


Alexander Martin: Have these shippers been paid the losses which they sustained ?


William Paterson: Yes. The deputy thought that the members from Prince Edward Island would know the facts of the case.


Angus Alexander McLean: I would like the hon. minister to bring down the names of those to whom the money was paid. I am informed that the shippers have not been paid and that a suit is now pending in the courts against Furness-Withy & Co., to recover an amount for the loss incurred. I think this, item should be allowed to stand until that information is brought down.


William Paterson: Certainly.
Mi'. INGRAM. Do I understand the hon. minister to say that $7,000 was voted last year and that only $2,500 was expended?


William Paterson: Yes, I am told so. Did the hon. gentleman (Mr. A. A. McLean) say that it was the Furness-Withy Line?


Angus Alexander McLean: The Manchester Line ?


William Paterson: I thought the hon. gentleman said Furness-Withy & Co.


Angus Alexander McLean: It is controlled by Furness-Withy & Co.


William Paterson: This item had better stand.


Andrew B. Ingram: There was $3,500 asked for first and the reason given for the increase to $7,000 was that you wanted to increase this service. It is a strange thing that you want more money when you only spent $2,500 of the $7,000 asked for last year.


William Paterson: This contract has expired and they are expecting to be able to effect a contract which will be better carried out than this one.


Andrew B. Ingram: They got the same amount exactly last year, $7,000. Why were they not able to carry out the same service then that they wish to carry out now ?


William Paterson: I cannot tell the hon. gentleman. It has been unsatisfactory apparently. The contract may not be made with the same company. The right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, with this vote at his disposal, will be enabled to make a new contract. This, on the face of it looks to have been a very unsatisfactory one.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. minister what was said in regard to the freight rates. I gather from his memorandum of the contract that the freight rates were not to be greater than those between Montreal and Manchester.


William Paterson: Yes.


Hon.   I@: It is stated by one-of the hon. members for Queen's that the rates charged were much higher. Perhaps then the hon. minister will give us some information about that when the item comes up again. It is important to know about that because it seems to be a violation of the contract?


William Paterson: Yes, that was one of the points of the contract.


George Eulas Foster: Was the port at which she did not stop one of the ports at which she should have stopped under the contract?


William Paterson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Then, I hope the hon. minister will give us some information as to why, if she did not stop at the ports called for under the contract, the money was paid ?


Alexander Martin: Last year, $7,000 was placed in the estimates in the expectation that there would be a larger number of trips between the province of Prince Edward Island and Great Britain than formerly. Any person can understand that one trip between Prince Edward Island and Great Britain is not what the province should have. Not cnly was there only one trip made, but the rates charged for that trip were excessively high. In the production of cattle, sheep, bacon, ham, eggs, butter and cheese, there is no similar area in the Dominion of Canada that can equal the province of Prince Edward Island and without adequate shipping facilities the farmers are very much handicapped. We know very well now that Great Britain is our market but what position is Prince Edward Island in ? The first thing that our exporters have to do is to ship their goods to Halifax and then tranship them to the vessel from Halifax to the old country. Thus they are handicapped in every way, and I think that in place of having one trip per annum Prince Edward Island should have at least seven trips. Every time that the boat did come to the port at Charlottetown she could nbt accommodate all the freight that was offered, and the cold storage accommodation was not at all sufficient, and yet they think they are doing a great deal for Prince Edward. Island by giving one trip per annum. Thev are only showing the people of Prince Edward what they are losing by not being in communication with Great Britain apd not having the subsidies that the other provinces have. If the Minister of Trade and Commerce would see that these four or fivfr



trips are provided for this service he would he doing an immense service for the province. If you compare the daily market *quotations for Montreal and Prince Edward Island you will find that the quotations for pork, beef and ham, are two cents a pound lower in Prince Edward Island, mainly because the farmer of Prince Edward Island has first to ship his produce to Halifax or Montreal and then to ship it back to the old country from there all owing to the fact that they have not the direct accommodation. When you look at this page and see the amount of subsidies it is appalling. I do not believe that it is any too much, but I think the province of Prince Edward Island should figure a little larger and that at least four or five trips should be given to Prince Edward Island. I think you could *get a steamer that would perform that service for $1,500 in subsidies for each trip. I would like to know all the particulars of this $2,500 as there seems to be something a little shady about it. but we will get to the bottom of it a little later on. My object is to call attention to the position the province occupies.	>


William Paterson: As the item stands I will say very little about it. The hon. gentleman's statement is important if it is *only for the purpose of pressing these matters on the minister, and I shall repeat my understanding of his statement to be quite sure that I am correct and to know just what I can say to the minister in charge. The hon. gentleman thinks there is trade enough to warrant four or five round trips In the year ?


Alexander Martin: Yes.


William Paterson: lie thinks that there will be so much trade offering that $1,500 per round trip would be sufficient payment, that is, that for the subsidy here he thinks the minister would be warranted in the strength of his statement in saying to the steamship people that they would be suffi

ciently remunerated for making four or five trips for that amount of money, that he would be moderately safe in assuring them that they could have a full cargo for the trip ?


Alexander Martin: Yes.


William Paterson: I would ask one more question ; what would be the hon. gentleman's suggestion as to the date of these trips, should there be two in the fall and two in the spring ; or should they all be subsequent to the harvest ?


Alexander Martin: In reply to that, I remember a few- years ago bringing this up in the House. I think the Minister of Agriculture was in the House and that he promised a trip in the spring, but after the farmers of Prince Edward Island had fattened their cattle and got them ready for shipment the boat did not arrive and large loss was the result. There might be one or two Mr. A. MARTIN.
trips in the spring and two or three trips in the fall and I think there would be ample freight for this number of trips. As to the question as to whether the $1,500 would be sufficient I have only taken what my colleague says. Freights of course may vary, but I would say that as a general thing $1,500 would be a fair subsidy, but whether the subsidy be $1,500 or $2,000 I think it would be money well spent.


William Paterson: This is an important service evidently if it can be developed, because it is an export trade, in which, if a good arrangement is made and the foreign market is stimulated, it will be an advantage to all Canada.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I cannot understand how there comes to be a dispute between the vessel owner and the shipper. Are you dividing this money between them, or are jou giving some consideration to the shipper ?


William Paterson: I do not know ; there is a statement to .come down giving the whole thing.


Angus Alexander McLean: I think I can explain shortly. The steamer usually leaves Halifax or St. John and she has to go around to Charlottetown ; that is the reason for the subsidy. She has to go out of her way to get to Charlottetown. The vessel would be partly loaded leaving either of these ports and the dispute with reference to the trade is with the shippers.
Mr. SPROUIjE. The point I am interested in is whether the shipper gets any consideration for supplying the freight. I)o you make a reduction in his freight or something of that kind ? Tliey are claiming damages on account of the boat failing to keep her contract and calling for cargo.


William Paterson: At the proper port and time.
Direct fortnightly steam service between Montreal, Quebec and Manchester, England, during the summer season, and between St. John, Halifax and Manchester, during the winter season, $35,000.


William Paterson: We have six steamers engaged in this service, the ' Manchester City,' the ' Manchester Commerce,' the 'Manchester Trader,' the ' Manchester Corporation,' the ' Manchester Importer ' and the ' Manchester Shipper.' This service is between Manchester and Montreal, calling at Quebec both ways, and in winter between Manchester and St. John, calling at Halifax. It is a regular fortnightly service; the steamers carry mails and cold storage is stipulated for in the contract.


Robert Laird Borden: They are paid by the round trip ?	.


William Paterson: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: How much per trip ?


Mr PATERSON.: We do not pay by the trip, we pay tbe $35,000.


Robert Laird Borden: $35,000 to one particular line ?


William Paterson: Yes, but with several vessels.


Robert Laird Borden: How many trips ?


William Paterson: It is a regular fortnightly service and if they fail for a trip the amount is deducted.


Andrew B. Ingram: Tbe bon. minister mentions a boat, tbe ' Manchester Trader.' Is that the same vessel which is mentioned in connection with item 166 which we have just been discussing ?


William Paterson: I would not wonder, after the explanation of the hon. member for Prince Edward Island (Mr. A. A. McLean), that the boat does not go from St. John alone, but leaves Halifax and calls there. The Manchester Line apparently does the Charlottetown service.


Andrew B. Ingram: So that votes 166 and 167 are related to each other to the extent that by one vote you pay $35,000 and the other $7,000, but the same boat provides the service stipulated for in each vote.


William Paterson: The information which I have is a little different from what the hon. member for Queen's (Mr. McLean) states. The understanding of the deputy is that the business with Charlottetown is done by a vessel subsidized for that purpose, and not by one of the regular liners between Montreal and Manchester. I understood the hon. gentleman to say that the boat that was performing this work came from Halifax or some port partly loaded, and completed her cargo at Charlottetown.


Angus Alexander McLean: That is the fact. It was the case with all the boats that called there last fall.


Mr. A. JOHNSTON.: Does this contract cover a period of years or is it an annual contract ?


William Paterson: It was made on October 6, 1904, became operative on July 3, and expires on July 1, 1905.


Mr.   POSTER@: What are the conditions of the contract as to trips ?


William Paterson: It is for a regular fortnightly service, carrying mails and providing cold storage. In summer the terminal points are Manchester and Montreal, calling at Quebec both ways, and in winter Manchester and St. John, calling at Halifax.


Mr.   POSTER@: Is there any penalty for mal-performance ?


William Paterson: Oh, yes. That is stipulated in all contracts. The penalty is a deduction pro rata.
30il


Mr.   POSTER@: Have they performed their contract absolutely ?


William Paterson: Absolutely, I am told.
Steam communication during the season of 1905-6 between Baddeck, Grand Narrows, Iona, Big Pond and East Bay, $5,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in this contract. It expires April 15, 1906. It is' one of our local services and the mail vessels carry the mails.
Steam communication during the season of 1905, that is, from the opening to the closing of navigation, betwen Port Mulgrave, St. Peters, Irish Cove, Marble Mountain, and other ports on the Bras d'Or Lakes, $6,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in this. The contract runs till the close of navigation this year. It includes the carrying of the mails. Two full round trips are made each week between Port Mulgrave, St. Peters, Irish Cove and Grand Narrows, and four full round trips each week between Grand Narrows and Marble Mountain, two of which extend to East Bay.


Mr.   POSTER@: What boats are doing that?


William Paterson: The steamer ' Bega.'
Steam communication during the season of 1905, that is, from the opening to the closing of navigation, between Gaspe Basin and Dalhousie or Campbellton, $12,500.


Mr.   POSTER@: Explain this. What improvements are expected, if any ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: This service was performed by the steamer 'Admiral' until last year. She ran between Dalhousie in the county of Restigouche and stopped at all ports #in the county of Bonaventure and the county of Gasp6 until she reached Ggsp6 Basin. Last year it was found that the ' Admiral ' could not any longer serve the purposes for which she had been subsidized during the years previous, as she was too old. Therefore a new boat, the ' Restigouche,' was put on by the contractor. She was a good boat, but too slow. Then the department decided, at the request of my hon. friend the Deputy -Speaker, the hon. member for Restigouche and myself, to call for new tenders. A company was formed at Campbellton, the Interprovincial Navigation Company of Canada, composed of merchants of New Brunswick, especially of Campbellton and Dalhousie, and others of the counties of Bonaventure and Gaspe. They subscribed a capital of something like $97,000 ; and, after having obtained the contract from the Department of Trade and Commerce, they ordered a new boat from Scotland, a model of which was exhibited a short time ago in room 16. The new boat has been christened the * Lady Eileen,' after the daughter of our late Governor General. She is one of the best boats on Canadian waters, and will, I am sure, give satisfaction to all

parties concerned. There is a change made in the terminals. Hitherto the terminal in New Brunswick has been Dalhousie ; but it has been decided, at the request of the people, to have the terminal in future at Campbellton, which is on the main line of tlie Intercolonial Railway, and where new wharf accommodation, with freight sheds, will be provided for the public. I am sure that the Baie des Chaleurs will gain considerably by this new boat. It will attract not only business men, but tourists. The ' Admiral ' was so old that tourists would no longer travel in her, but with this new boat that travel will no doubt revive and prove very remunerative to the coast of Gaspfi and Bona venture.


George Eulas Foster: Will the voyage begin at Campbellton and be interrupted at Dalhousie a whole night?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The boat will start from Campbellton for Dalhousie and then cross to Carleton and will stop at every harbour as far as GaspC Basin. The boat is the * Lady Eileen ' and her length is 180 feet, and I am sure she will be the best of her kind in Canada.


George Eulas Foster: What I want to know is whether or not she will lay over night at Dalhousie and start from there in the morning?


Rodolphe Lemieux: She will stop at Dalhousie and then go on. She will reach Gaspe at nine p.m.


George Eulas Foster: What is her speed?


William Paterson: 12 knots.


Andrew B. Ingram: What has been done with the ' Restigouclie ' and the ' Admiral '*?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The ' Admiral ' is at, the bottom of the sea and the ' Restigouche ' was there only to replace the ' Admiral.'
Steam communication during the season of 1905, that is, from the opening to the closing of navigation, between Pictou and Cheticamp, $2,000. _


William Paterson: The contract expires at the close of navigation.


George Eulas Foster: Is this amount to resuscitate ?


William Paterson: I suppose it is to make a new contract.
Steam communication from April 1, 1905, to March 31, 1906, between Port Mulgrave and Can-so, and between Port Mulgrave and Guysbor-ough, and from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1905, between Port Mulgrave, Margaree and Cheticamp, $8,000.


William Paterson: This contract was made in 1902 and expires this year.


Andrew B. Ingram: Are there any complaints now about the train connection1' with these vessels?


William Paterson: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 


Mr. SINCLAIR.: I think the time has come when the contractors should furnish a bettei boat. The service is performed by two
steamers-one from Guysborough to the coast of Inverness, one trip each week, and the other making a direct service between (he Intercolonial Railway and the town of Canso, about twenty-seven miles. The service to Guysborough and the coast of Inverness is very satisfactorily performed by a boat called the Malcolm Cann. The other boat plying on the Canso route is an old boat, to which we have been paying a subsidy for about ten years, and while she is doing the work fairly well, the people there think the time has come when we should have a better boat. As the contract will shortly expire, I wish to suggest to the hon. minister that he should communicate with the contractors and ascertain whether they will not furnish a larger and more commodious boat for the Canso route. The trade has grown considerably during the last few years, especially the fresh fish trade. This boat starts in the early morning, meets the express train at Mulgrave, and her cargo of fresh fish is sent by fast express to Montreal. This trade has grown considerably, and sometimes the boat Is too small for the business, especially at certain seasons of the year. The passenger accommodation is also poor and the contrac tors should be asked to improve the service.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population of Canso?


John Howard Sinclair: 2,300.


George Eulas Foster: What was paid for this boat ' John L. Camp ? '


William Paterson: The subsidy to the two was $8,000 and they get it between them. The request of the hon. gentleman with regard to the framing of another contract will be brought to the attention of the minister.


George Eulas Foster: That adds force to what I said a little while ago We should have some supervision over all those services. If' that fresh fish trade is important, as no doubt it is, and the vessel too small, It seems to me that more ought to be required for that amount of subsidy. You are paying those two small vessels $8,000, as much nearly as you are paying on the Prince Edward Island route for a double service. It seems to be a very large subsidy for two very small vessels and one of them a very old one.
Steam service during the year 1905, between St. Stephen, N.B., St. Croix River Points, Deer Island, Campobello and the inner islands, Pas-samaquoddy Bay, L'Etete or Black Bay, $3,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in that, the contract has run out and has to be renewed.
Steam service during the year 1905, between Quebec and Blanc Sablon, calling at ports along

the northern shore of the River St. Lawrence between such terminals, $8,000.


George Eulas Foster: That seems to be a new service ?


William Paterson: No, it is not a new service ; it was entered into three years ago. The contract terminates at the close ol' navigation 1904.


George Eulas Foster: Where is Blanc Sablon ?


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: Almost at the Strait of Belle Isle.


George Eulas Foster: How many trips does the vessel make, and what is her size ?


William Paterson: She makes a semimonthly trip from Quebec to Natashquan, one trip each season to be extended to Blanc Sablon. The steamer is the ' King Edward,' and the contractors are Messrs. Holliday Brothers. The steamer carries the mail.


George Eulas Foster: What is her tonnage ?


William Paterson: I have not that information.
Steam service during the season of 1905 between Sydney, C.B., and Bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports, $1,500.


George Eulas Foster: Where is this ?


William Paterson: This seems to be a new contract, entered into on the 25th of January, but a renewal of an old service on the same terms. From the opening of navigation to the 15th of June, and from the 15th of October to the close of navigation each year, that is, until the ice will not permit of the running of a steamer over the routes, one full round trip between Sydney and St. Ann's bay, calling both going and returning at North Sydney, Breton Cove, Eng-lishtown and North river, and one full round trip each week between Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence, calling both going and returning at North Sydney, Ingonish, Neil's harbour, Aspy bay and Cape North ; and from the 15th day of June until the 15th day of October two full round trips each week between Sydney and Neil's harbour, calling both going and returning at North Sydney and Ingonish, one trip each week to be extended to Bay St. Lawrence, with calls at Aspy and Cape North. The vessel is the ' Weymouth,' and she carries the mails. The contract runs until the close of navigation 1908.
Weekly service between Halifax and Canso, from July 1, 1905, to June 30, 1906, $4,000.


William Paterson: There is no change in that. The contract runs until the 30th of June, 1908.


George Eulas Foster: What vessel is performing this service ?


William Paterson: The ' Lunenburg ' and the ' Strathcona.'


George Eulas Foster: What is the distance around from the Intercolonial terminus to Canso ?


Alexander Johnston: Thirty-seven miles.


George Eulas Foster: I should think these places would get the mails more quickly from the Intercolonial.


Alexander Johnston: The vessel calls for mails along the route.


William Paterson: The ports are Port Dufferin, Sonora, Isaac's harbour, Goldboro' and Whitehead.
Winter steam navigation during the winter of 1905-6 between Quebec and the St. Lawrence harbours down to Murray Bay and River Ouelle, $12,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is this service ?


William Paterson: The minister is asking to have this vote placed at his disposal to make a contract, but no contract has yet been made. A proper vessel has not been found to take up the service.


George Eulas Foster: Better let the item stand.


William Paterson: I am not at the moment in a position to explain the item, so we will let it stand.
Summer service between Murray Bay and River Ouelle, $6,000.


William Paterson: No contract has been awarded for this yet.


George Eulas Foster: Better let it stand.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The item will stand.
Steam service between Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagway, $12,500.
Steam service between Victoria and west coast of Vancouver Island, $5,000.


William Paterson: The same contractors carry on these two services, and there does not appear to have been any change. The contractors are the Canadian Pacific Navigation Company. The vessels are ' Princess May', ' Tees,' ' Amur ' and ' Queen City.' There are three routes. Route A is from Victoria and Vancouver to Skagway four complete round trips during June, July, August, September and October ; three complete round trips during March. April and May, and two complete round trips during May, November.and December, and January and February. Route B, from Victoria, Vancouver, Naas harbour and Skidegate, calling at way ports, two round trips each month. Route C, Victoria and Ahousset. Quatsino and Cape Scott and way ports, four round trips from April to September, inclusive, as follows:-Two from Victoria to Ahousset, one to Ahousset and Quatsino and Cape Scott. During the remaining months three round trips from Victoria to Ahousset, one to be continued to Cape 'Scott, calling at way ports. The

vote is for $5,000. There is an increase of $2,500, which is to improve the service.


George Eulas Foster: What improvement does the minister get for this added $2,500 ?


William Paterson: He expects to get better boats.


George Eulas Foster: In what way V What have we now, and what does the minister intend to demand ?


William Paterson: The service expires in June of this year, and this vote is taken to enable us to stipulate for a better service.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend will see that that is a very shadowy explanation. The minister must have a mind of his own He seems to know what the defect is, and what will remedy that defect. When he comes down to parliament asking for blank powers, he ought to tell us in what way he proposes to make the service better before he gets an extra vote. I suppose there is trouble in the quality of the boat, in speed, or in size.


William Paterson: Frequency of the trips, I fancy.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister tell us what he proposes to get, or let the item stand.


William Paterson: The matter is under consideration. It is not an unusual thing to place a sum at the disposal of the minister where a contract has been made. It would be a subject for criticism next year as to whether it was a wise contract.
Mr. I'OS TER. How many extra trips does he expect to get ?


William Paterson: I am told it is what we have at present.


George Eulas Foster: Does the minister know any more than he is telling us ?


William Paterson: No. This is a very reliable company. It will be a question as to whether they will consent to do any more than they are doing for $2,500. The minister would like to get more frequent trips, and he is asking for $2,500 more than the present contract calls for, so that if it is necessary to secure what he wants, if he can get it for $2,500, he wants the sanction of parliament.


George Eulas Foster: Before the minister can get the vote he must tell the House what his idea is as to improvements, then we will have something to hold the minister to.


William Paterson: In what particulars does the hon. gentleman mean ?
Mr. FOSTER, In whatever particulars the improvement is to be made, whether in size, or speed, or frequency.


William Paterson: Then we will have to let the item stand.


William Paterson: Steam communication between Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton and Newfoundland, $8,000.


William Paterson: This contract has expired. The service was performed by the steamer ' Elliott,' which was wrecked. It was a fortnightly service between the points named in the vote. We have not found another boat yet, and we would like the money to find one.


Alexander Martin: I may say this was a very useful service to the ports at which the boat stopped. How many trips did she make ?


William Paterson: It was a fortnightly service between the points named. Fifteen hundred dollars was paid before the contract expired.


Alexander Martin: Have they advertised for another service ?


William Paterson: No.
Mr. FOSTER, Had'nt they better get busy V


William Paterson: Yes, if they want to carry on the work.
Mr. FOSTER, Who administers the Department of Trade and Commerce now, or is it an ornament ?


William Paterson: No, it is very efficiently managed. I regret the minister is not in the House now.
Mr, FOSTER. If we were to judge from the infantile remarks of the minister who is explaining these votes, it is not well managed.


William Paterson: That is a fair reflection on the minister who is explaining the votes, but it would not apply to the minister at the head of the department. If my explanations are not very lucid, the committee has the satisfaction of knowing that the expenditure of the money is in the hands of a gentleman in whom the committee has full confidence that, the public interest will be guarded in every way.


Alexander Martin: Will the minister call for tenders for another boat to perform this service ?


William Paterson: I am afraid there will have to be another stand of this vote.


Alexander Johnston: I am sure the hon. member for Queen's (Mr. Martin) is not unaware of the fact that for years a steam service has been in operation between Prince Edward Island and the ports of Cape Breton and Newfoundland, during the season of navigation, and I do not see what necessity there is for this subsidy. They are performing the service now, and have been for a number of years, without any subsidy.


George Eulas Foster: But the vessel has gone to the bottom of the sea.


Alexander Johnston: I am speaking of another, an independent service.


George Eulas Foster: Is there another service being performed ?


Alexander Johnston: Yes, on the same route, between Charlottetown and the various ports of Cape Breton and Newfoundland. There is a regular line of steamers fiom Charlottetown, North Sydney and Sydney to St. Johns, Newfoundland. Surely my hon. friend representing the city- ot Charlottetown is not aware of the fact that foi years this service has been in operation.


Mr A MARTIN.: I am well aware of the 'object of the service. There must have been some reason for making provision for another service. I think the service the hon. gentleman alludes to is one for his province, but there are other provinces in Canada besides his own. I think he will find that this service to Newfoundland is a very important one and one for which another boat should be provided. If the service is such as the hon. gentleman describes, there was no necessity for this vote last year. He was m his place, I suppose, and knows what information was given to the committee at that time I think the service is highly beneficial to the trade between Newfoundland and this country, and anything we can do to increase the trade between Canada and Newfoundland is a move in the right direction. That trade is rapidly passing from Canada to the neighbouring republic, and anything we can do to keep it for Canada should be done.


Alexander Johnston: I am not offering any opposition to the subsidy which is proposed to be voted. I do say, however, that it is unfair that a rival company should be subsidized to do business in opposition to a company- which has been doing a fair business lor a number of years. I represented to the Department of Trade and Commerce at the time that if this subsidy were to be granted it should be given to the company that had been performing the service for a number ot years. I represented that it was unfair that a rival company should be subsidized. I still think so. I will support the proposition that this subsidy- be voted, but I say- it should go to the pioneer company, to the company that has been doing good work in years past, to the company that proposes to continue that work and to the company that has given very excellent service from the best information that I can obtain.


Alexander Martin: I am not very particularly concerned as to which company performs the service. I would be perfectly satisfied to give it to the company the hon. gentleman (Mr. A. Johnston) may be interested in.


Alexander Johnston: I am not interested in any company-.


Alexander Martin: You may be interested.


Alexander Johnston: I am not.


Alexander Martin: The hon. gentleman says that he ojrposes the payment of this subsidy to any other company, but does not oppose the vote.


Alexander Johnston: No.


Alexander Martin: The only object I have in view in calling attention to it is that somebody should be called upon to perform the service. To the company spoken of I have no objection. All I desire is that that service shall be performed in an efficient manner.


William Paterson: Tenders will be called for, no doubt, and this company will tender.


George Eulas Foster: This is rather an interesting feature that is brought up. Here is one hon. gentleman who says that for a nhmber of years a capable and full service has been carried out by a line of vessels that is doing the work and doing it well. Suddenly, for some reason or other, against this old and well established line a subsidized line is placed on the route to perform exactly the same service as has been explained by the hon. member for Cape Breton. Is that part of the policy of the Department of Trade and Commerce, or the government ? The hon. member for Cape Breton, says that he is not averse to the subsidy being given if it goes to the old company, but there is just where the crux of the position is. If a company- has .been for y-ears doing the service and doing it well, making enough out of it to give a good service and to pay its way, why in the world does the government stick its nose in with a new subsidized line ? Are the routes exactly the same ? D* the vessels start from the same ports, touch at the same ports, go to the same ports and return to the same ports, and is the Department of Trade and Commerce doing everywhere what it is doing with these boats ? If that is so it is rather a remarkable thing.
I think the hon. minister had better let this stand and I think he had better let it stand, a long time.


William Paterson: If you want it dropped, why, say so.


George Eulas Foster: No, I have great faith in my hon. friend from Queen's (Mr. A. Martin) and he has great faith just at this particular time in the Department of Trade and Commerce, but with all that I think the chamber should have an explantion.


Alexander Martin: I think I can give the information about this. The boats from Montreal call at Charlottetown and Sydney and their final destination is St. John's, Newfoundland. But, they return without calling at these ports and the government, to develop trade and to get the steamers on their return from Newfoundland and Sydney
[DOT]943

to call at Charlottetown, have offered this subsidy. That Is the reason.


George Eulas Foster: I think the hon. minister will have to look into that.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Drop it.


Alexander Martin: I think the explanation given by my hon. friend (Mr. A. A. Mc-Eean) will be sufficient to give hon. gentlemen opposite pause before they drop it. The reason for the subsidy is that at present these boats do not return by way of Charlottetown.


William Paterson: Well, the contract has expired, and no new contract has been made. Of course, if there is a line doing the service and answering the purpose


Alexander Martin: No, they are only answering it half way. There is no return trade.


William Paterson: As to the larger question raised by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) as to the wisdom of subsidizing a line of steamers anywhere coming into competition with independent lines, it is a question just how far you ought to go in that direction. It would not be confined to these local routes but it would go beyond. The whole question is raised as to the wisdom of giving any subsidies at all.


George Eulas Foster: You get into that when you j get into the ocean steamship subsidies.


William Paterson: Yes, but apparently there seems to be a misunderstanding in this. The hon. gentleman.from Prince Edward Island says that the service alluded to by my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. A. Johnston) is not the same service.


George Eulas Foster: In that case it certainly becomes the duty of the hon. minister to bring down the correct information. He had better let this stand.


William Paterson: The only question is [DOT]whether we shall drop this item.


George Eulas Foster: Why should you drop it on insufficient information ? The hon. minister [DOT]does not know whether these are or are not Identical routes. If they are identical routes there is something to be looked into but my hon. friend (Mr. A. Martin) says the routes are not identical.


Alexander Martin: No.


William Paterson: And my hon. friend (Mr. A. Johnston) says they are.


George Eulas Foster: We do not believe the hon. member for Cape Breton or the hon. member for Queen's, P.E.I. We must have the hon. minister bring down the information.


Andrew B. Ingram: Last year the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce pledged himself to one of his own supporters that he would have these vessels running over Mr. A. MARTIN.
the same route both going and returning, and on the strength of that pledge this vote was passed. Do I understand that the Department of Trade and Commerce is not going to carry out the promise made bv the right hon. minister in this House last year ?


William Paterson: In reference to this ? Mr. INGRAM. Yes.


William Paterson: I do not know what arrangement was made. I did not heal- the first part of the hon. gentleman's remarks, but the contract has expired. What was the promise last year ? Does the hon. gentleman have it before him ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, and perhaps it would be best to put it on ' Hansard : '


Mr. J. J. HUGHES.: What will be the starting point in the province of Prince Edward Island for this service and what will be the port or ports of call in that province ? Also, what will be the port or ports of call in Cape Breton and the port of destination in Newfoundland ?


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: Leaving Charlottetown, thence to Bridgetown, Annandale and Souris, P.E.I. ; thence to Glace Bay and Sydney, and thence to St. John's Newfoundland ; returning over the same route.


James Joseph Hughes: In any agreement that may be made with a company for this service, that will be one of the conditions, of course ?


Richard John Cartwright: That is our intention, of course ?
Meaning that that would be the route they would go, that that would be the route they would return, and that any agreement that was entered into would be along that line.


Alexander Johnston: I have to say that I understood that these two lines of steamers went to Charlottetown, touched at Sydney and then proceeded to St. John's. Newfoundland. From the route indicated by my hon. friend from Elgin-(Mr. Ingram) it would seem that the purpose is not only to start from Charlottetown but that the vessels shall touch at various other ports. The steamers doing the work just now. call at Charlottetown, proceeding direct to North Sydney and Sydney and from Sydney going direct to St. John's, Newfoundland. Of course, if it is the purpose to call a.t other ports I admit at once that it is a different service.


George Eulas Foster: Then the routes are quite different ?


Alexander Johnston: 
William Paterson: I cannot give much information about this.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As long as we had the * Admiral ' on the coast this vote would he useless, but now with the new steamer the service will be performed as late as January 15 or 20. Last year, or two years ago the service could have been properly performed if we had had a proper steamer.


Mr. FOWLER.: Is this an addition to the subsidy given to the same steamer by tire other vote ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: This is in another shape. The subsidy is $12,500 for the ordinary service, between the opening and the close of navigation as ordinarily known, but when the boat performs the service during November, December and the early part of January, she takes greater risks, and we have this year the promise by this Interprovincial Company that it will be able to perform the service with this new boat.


Mr. BERGERON.: For how many months is the service generally performed ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: From April to December ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: About nine months, and this will give about a month and a half cr two months more.


William Findlay Maclean: I would like to ask the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Le-mieux) if there is any probability of Pas-pcbiac being an open winter port.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As the Deputy Speaker, owing to his position as chairman of the committee cannot speak, I would not like to say anything on this subject, because I stand for Gaspfi Basin and he stands for Paspebiac.


George Eulas Foster: Perhaps, as the Deputy Speaker would not like to refer to it, the Solicitor General would read the contents of that wonderful postcard. Perhaps we will find it in that.


Andrew B. Ingram: What about this experiment ? How did it succeed ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There was no experiment last year. The vote was placed there with the expectation that the old company would give us a proper steamer, but the company did not give that steamer, and therefore this vote will be available fqr the new steamer, the ' Lady Eileen.'


George William Fowler: The subsidy was not paid last year ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It was not earned.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The boat will now receive $15,500 instead of $12,500, because ir. future she will be running two months more.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: It seems to me that the Minister of Trade and Commerce should
know more about this, and last year he did say it was an experiment.
Mr. LEMIEUX, Last year we had the promise from the company which owned the ' Admiral ' that they would get a new boat during the season of navigation. They failed to get that boat and therefore they could not perform the service in December and January. Now we have a new boat and the service will be performed.


Andrew B. Ingram: The Minister of Trade and Commerce said that they wanted to make the experiment.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It was not a new steamer last year, it was an old boat which was afterwards burned.


Andrew B. Ingram: This is the discussion that took place on it last year :


Richard John Cartwright: This is in the nature of an experiment to see if we can prolong that service during the winter months. We are now in negotiation and hope to obtain the
service.


Robert Laird Borden: We had an item in the estimates for this year ; did the hon. minister utilize that ?


Richard John Cartwright: No, we did not succeed in getting a boat to carry on the service during December and January. They were afraid to face the ice in the Gulf at that time.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The company which owned the ' Admiral ' would not risk that steamer in the ice. There is no question that a screw steamer specially fitted for the service, could make the trips in December and January. Some winters the navigation is open during the whole season, but every winter with a good screw steamer such as the new steamer is the company will be able to navigate the waters of the Baie de Chaleurs and the Gasp6 Basin during December and January.


George Eulas Foster: To what point does the railway go down ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: There are two railways ; the Baie de Chaleurs Railway runs as far as Paspebiac.


George Eulas Foster: Is it an all winter service ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Oh, yes. The new railway will start from Paspebiac to Gaspfi Basin.


George Eulas Foster: That will not be operated this year ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Ten miles will be operated by June next, and 20 miles by next year.


George Eulas Foster: The new vessel will run from Campbellton to Gaspfi Basin during the summer and autumn, and it is now proposed that she will run between Gaspe Basin and Paspebiac for the winter. For running between these places during the

94S
two winter months she gets $3,000 and that makes the whole subsidy to this vessel $15,500. She is employed in this service practically all the year and the subsidy seems permissible because she makes winter connection between the railway and GaspO Basin, but when this new railway is built and operated, then of course this service would be no longer necessary.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Probably.


Mr. MONK.: When do the trips between Campbellton and Gasp 6 begin in the summer ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Early in April.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Are they weekly trips.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is a semi-weekly service.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: And they last until what time ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: With the new steamer we will have navigation open until January 15 or 20, so that it will last from April to January.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Perhaps my hon. friend can tell me if the steamer * Admiral ' is going to run regularly ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: She was burnt.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is it intended to replace the steamer for the service between River Ouelle and Murray Bay ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Two years ago the
' Admiral ' performed that service, but last year, failing to find a new steamer for the Baie de Clialeurs we had to take her again. During the summer she was burned and is now at the bottom of the sea. The work was then performed by the ' Bestigoucbe and now we have a contract with the company owning the ' Lady Eileen.'


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is there to be a service between St. Denis and Murray Bay.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that the Department of Marine had a boat built for that purpose which was running this winter, the ' Champlain.'


George Eulas Foster: When was this contract made with the new company ?


William Paterson: On October 6, 1904.


George Eulas Foster: The contract was made with the company before the boat was built.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The boat was being built. The plans were exhibited in the department.


George Eulas Foster: And the contract was made on the plans, I suppose, and her capacity as shown by them, and she is bound in the contract to come up to those conditions?


George Eulas Foster: 


Rodolphe Lemieux: Oh, yes. There is no question but that by the beginning of April we shall have on the Baie des Chaleurs the best steamer on the River St Lawrence.


George Eulas Foster: It is a comfortable thing for a company which is canvassing for stock to go to the government first through one of its most trusted members and enter into a contract hard and fast, and then go out and sell stock on a sure thing.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And after having invited tenders. I believe a majority of the stockholders belong to the party of my hon. friend.


George Eulas Foster: I would like to ask the minister if that is to be the policy of the government; because, if it is understood to be such, more of us will come in.
Steam service between St. Catherines bay and Tadousac during winter of 1905-6, $2,000.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where is St. Catherines bay?


William Paterson: It is near the mouth of the Saguenay river.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I suppose this is a crossing. Is it a steamboat?


William Paterson: Yes.	.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does she carry the mails during the winter months?


William Paterson: The contract expired on April 30, and none has since been awarded.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it an old service?


William Paterson: It is a service that was put on last year.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who is the owner of the boat?


William Paterson: There is no boat.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Who is making the service now?


William Paterson: No one is. IVe are asking- for $2,000 to enable the minister to make it.


George Eulas Foster: What will be the length of the course?


William Paterson: Three miles, I am told. Tlier# is no service this winter. The contractors wanted an increased amount, and the minister would not give it.


George William Fowler: It strikes me that this is an ordinary ferry. In every other province services of this kind are subsidized by the provincial governments.
ill-. BERGERON. Our provincial government is on strike now.


George William Fowler: When Air. Parent recovers his health, you may get a subsidy from him.


George Eulas Foster: This is an astounding thing. I would suggest to the Minister of Inland Revenue that here may he a way out. If one of the contending parties will undertake to carry out this half-mile ferry service without charging it up to the Dominion, we might all throw our influence in favour of that party. The minister is getting matters down pretty fine when he undertakes to subsidize a ferry of half a mile or three-quarters of a mile in extent.


William Paterson: Three miles, I am told.


George Eulas Foster: Oh, no. Is the government undertaking to subsidize ferry boats ?


Mr. GIRARD.: I may say that this service was organized last year for the purpose of enabling the people of the whole district of Tadousac to have regular communication with the rest of the Dominion during the winter. Owing to the fact that the Saguenay river at its mouth, which is about two and a half or three miles across, from St. Catherines bay to Tadousac, is sometimes covered with ice, and that the north and east winds at that point are usually very strong, it is impossible for any but a strong boat to make the passage. Last year the government, in response to a petition from the people, organized a service, which gave complete satisfaction to the department and the public. Since then Price Bros., the proprietors of the boat, have organized a new company, and there has been some negotiation between the company and the government. The distance from St. Catherines bay to the wharf at Tadousac is nearly three miles.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How are the mails eai'ried now?


Charles Fitzpatrick: My hon. friend understands the situation. He knows that there is no bridge across the Saguenay until you reach Ha-Ha bay. a distance of sixty or seventy miles from the mouth; so that the people along the north shore of the St. Lawrence below Tadousac, if they want to come up to the settled parts of the north shore, when they reach Tadousac, have to travel inland sixty or seventy miles, and then come back and take the shore line up to Murray bay or the other inhabited portions of the country. This is intended to enable them to cross the mouth of the Saguenay river from Tadousac to St. Catherines bay, which is the great milling point of the Price Bros. This service has been performed by a little boat belonging to the Price Bros. They want to put another boat on. and they have formed a company for the purpose, and it is to enable that company to perform this ferry service that this subsidy is asked.


George William Fowler: That does not justify it.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think it does. There is no bridge across the Saguenay
river and no way of crossing in the winter. There is no means of facilitating communication between those people at the mouth of the Saguenay and the upper part where they have no railway communication.


George William Fowler: This is purely a local affair, and should only be subsidized by the local government. Take the St. John river, which is quite as important as the Saguenay. It has a large population on both banks and yet there is no bridge from below Fredericton to St. John. There are ferries, but if these are subsidized at all they are subsidized by the provincial government.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Not two minutes ago we voted a subsidy under identical conditions. We voted $3,000 to subsidize a line to carry passengers from the terminus of the railway at Paspediac down to Gaspd basin.


Joseph Girard: That is the only way to give a regular service to the eastern part of the coast. The mail service has to cross the Saguenay during the winter and continue by land, and two years ago the mails were stuck on the west shore of the Saguenay for three weeks because the only means of crossing over was by canoe, and the wind was too strong. But with a small steamer you could have a regular service no matter what way the wind was.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: With reference to this vote from Tadousac into St. Catherines bay. and Tadousac, some facts have come to my knowledge since you left the Chair at six o'clock, Mr. Chairman, which put a rather different complexion on the resolution. This service is performed in summer by the Richelieu and Ontario Navigation Company. They receive a considerable grant for the service which is more important in summer than in winter. For some years, the winter carrying of the mails to the district below the Saguenay has become of importance because several new industries have started there. Last year there was a great delay in the conveyance of the mails-as much as eighteen days would elapse before the mail could get across from the western shore of the Saguenay and to Tadousac thence fifty miles by vehicle, &c., by dog-train to Matasliquan, and further to Belle Isle by any conveyance that offered. The Price Company have built a steamer at a cost of some $20,000 which, during the winter, conveys the mail regularly across the Saguenay to Tadousac and brings the mail back from the east. There are two trips across the opening of the river every day-it is not straight across the river, but

there is a distance of about three miles for a service between St. Catherines bay We pay not for the steam service but for the mails in the winter time, because delay would be detrimental to the industries and to the growing population on the eastern side of the river. There is no road from Tadousac to where a crossing can be effected, and in winter, there is no crossing possible, I am informed, for twelve leagues up the river-you must go that distance before you find a place where the river is frozen across. Under the circumstances, the sum of $2,000 paid to the Price Company seems reasonable enough. Of course, it is local enterprise and falls under the jurisdiction of the provincial parliament. But, as I understand it, this is a subsidy for mail service which interests the whole Dominion.
(Mr. FOWLER. The statement made in explanation of the item did not show that this was especially for a mail service. The committee is establishing the principle that these subsidies shall be given for ferries that are certainly within the jurisdiction of the provincial legislature. If this government has so much money that it can afford this sort of thing, I can suggest a place where it can spend some of its surplus cash. Along the shore of the Bay of Fundy in a portion of the constituency I represent, there are towns that have no steam communication at all, and a subsidy might be given to a line of steamers to ply between St. John, which is our commercial metropolis in New Brunswick, and the ports along the Bay of Fundy, for instance, St. Martin's quite a flourishing town. Alma, in the county of Albert, Waterside and the town of Albert, and other towns lying along the coast. The steamer could run all the year round. These places are certainly deserving of consideration.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think there is a difference. This subsidy is to enable the mails to be brought across the Saguenay river, which would be impossible otherwise except by going some forty or fifty miles up the river to a point of crossing-and on the eastern side there are no roads at all. In the cases referred to by my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) I suppose the mails are brought overland. The mails are brought from Quebec in winter overland to the mouth of the Saguenay, the difficulty is such as I have mentioned.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought it was said that there was a large business done by this ferry across the river, and that the country there was comparatively thickly settled. If that be so, one would expect to find that this boat had considerable earning capacity, enough to ensure a profit -without this subsidy. So far, this looks to me like some other cases we have had brought to our notice. A company running a steamboat asks for a subsidy with the idea that not much Mr. MONK.
inquiry will be made and that it will be a good thing to have. If there is a paying business, there is no need of this subsidy. But, if the subsidy is necessary to continue the service, and if there is no other way of carrying the mails, it would be much more likely to be justified.


William Paterson: The representations that impressed the department were not primarily with regard to the mails. They regarded it as a commercial enterprise. Many of the steamers subsidized promote trade between ports of the Dominion which otherwise would not be readily accessible. The owners in this case were able to convince the minister that it was worth the amount of the vote to encourage the trade of the country, the mails being carried as a part of the contract. But the company now want $3,000 and refuse to take the contract for less. The department would not give the $3,000, and so there is no contract. The minister asking only $2,000, and is not prepared, I understand to give more.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was there not a boat running there before the subsidy was given ?


William Paterson: No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There is a great deal in what my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) says. But, as a matter of fact, the boat performed this service last year for the first time. It was not generally known throughout the district that the boat would run regularly. There has been a considerable development of that region, and when the existence of this service is better known probably people will avail themselves more of it, and it will not be necessary to pay even $2,000 for the conveyance of the mails. The boat can carry six teams and a large number of passengers. It does a useful work generally in the gulf, I believe that last year it crossed from St. Catherines bay to Rimouski in the beginning of March. The Deputy Minister of Marine was on board on that occasion. But the traffic will probably develop, it is merely beginning.


George Eulas Foster: I want to argue this matter from a business standpoint as business men around this board. Now, is it a business subsidy or a mail subsidy ? The representation to the minister is that it is a business subsidy for the purpose of promoting trade. If you take it on that ground, all the precedents of this parliament are against giving what you may call a mere ferry subsidy. It is to all intents and circumstances a ferry, which stretches across a river in one of the provinces-a very useful and necessary convenience to have, but it is a thing which, in all the other provinces of the Dominion, has been kept up and subsidized, if at all, by the province. We have them all over New Brunswick. In my time, I re-

member numerous applications were made to bare these ferries subsidized. There was one particular ferry in my own county, running from St. John city three miles up to Bayswater, perhaps a little more. I well remember the deputations and pleas that were made to me to get a subsidy for that. The answer of the government always was, It is simply an internal ferry service ; it is entirely within a province, and the province itself must pay the subsidy ; and, as a matter of fact, the province always paid the subsidy, and pays it up to this day.


William Paterson: Does it carry the mails, too ?


Mr.   POSTER@: Yes ; and they are paid by the Postmaster General, who pays for the conveyance of the mails of the country, and he pays for the mail bag that is carried on that boat a very small amount, a couple of hundreds dollars probably for the whole season. That is a legitimate payment for the carriage of mails. Then take the river St. John from its mouth up ; here and there you come across a ferry. The St. John river is a wide river, in some parts a mile and three-quarters, sometimes a mile and sometimes three-quarters of a mile, and there are ferries all along the river. Two ferries used always to run opposite Fredericton, the capital of the province, one running up the Nashwassis and the other across to the Nasliwalc, a distance, in the one case, of about two miles and, in the other, probably of three-quarters of a mile. Never have they asked for a subsidy for these ferries, and if anything was given to them it was given to them by the municipality or by the legislature. You And ferries along the St. John river all the way up. They are all treated in that way. There is a ferry in Nova Scotia, from Dartmouth to Halifax, kept up by the municipalities, and not by the Dominion government. So when you come to the matter of subsidizing ferries for commercial purposes, really it ought not be discussable in this chamber. Where are you going to stop if, under the shadow of a commercial subsidy, you are going to subsidize different ferries ? Now, another point was brought up, and it is one that ought to be looked at fairly. The mails are to be carried to the people on the other side of the river and they are to get their mails delivered on this side of the river. If there is need of a traverse there, and it is difficult in the winter to cross, that is the Postmaster General's business ; he has to see that the public are served with the mails, and if it is necessary to pay $1,000 to get that service, he must pay it. If it is necessary to pay more he must do it, because he is bound to keep up the postal service, and he is bound to dispense so much of the public money as is necessary in order to keep up that service. When this item first came up I took it as a commercial subsidy, and it did not seem to me that
it was admissible here at all. As a postal service it is quite admissible, but then it ought to go through the Postmaster General, and he ought to give what is generously sufficient in order to have the mails carried across.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is a great deal to be said in support of the views put forward by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster). But the conditions existing at this particular place are entirely different from those that exist in any other part of Canada. Take the whole north shore of the St. Lawrence, from Murray bay down to Labrador, and as soon as navigation is closed the people of that country are absolutely shut out from communication with the outside world, except by means of the road that passes along the shore of the St. Lawrence. Now, from St. Catherine's bay, on the west side of the mouth of the Saguenay, to Quebec, there are facilities for communication, no difficulty about that ; that is to say, you have a road by which you can get out, even though it takes three, or four, or five days, or a week, or a fortnight. in bad weather, to cover the distance. But from Tadousac down the full length of the north shore of the St. Lawrence, they are absolutely without any means of access to the outside world ; there is no boat, no railway, no means of communication whatever, except by this road which runs along the shore of the St. Lawrence river ; and when they reach Tadousac then they are obliged to go, I am sure, it must be sixty or seventy miles inland to get up to a point where they can cross the Saguenay river and get to the other side ; and after they have reached the west side of the Saguenay, they have to go down to S. Catherine's bay along the shore. As a commercial proposition, it does seem to me that it stands in line of all the subsidies that have been given in order to facilitate communication. We are constantly aiding railways, we are constantly aiding steamboat services. Why? In order to give facilities to enable people to communicate with the outside world. Now, the intention here is to enable these people to cross the river at that point and save 140 miles of carriage-that is practically what it amounts to. Now, there is no use in endeavouring to cover this thing up in any way ; it cannot be pretended it is merely a mail subsidy, because, after all, the government can have a mail service if it goes 140 miles as well as if it merely crosses the river. It seems to me it can be defended on the principle that it gives facilities to these people who are to the east of the mouth of the Saguenay river to go up to Quebec and have communication with the outside world. So far as the service itself is concerned, it is performed by a firm down there, as I remember it, who are interested to some extent in the commercial development of that part of the country,

the firm of Price Brothers. My hon. friend, I think, will agree that they are one of the most respectable firms in the province of Quebec.


George Eulas Foster: That does not enter into the question.


Charles Fitzpatrick: But it shows this : these people contributed to that service for their own advantage, and I am informed by those who know that after having endeavoured to carry on that service, they find they cannot do it for the subsidy hitherto paid them. Notwithstanding all the business they get, notwithstanding the subsidy they have received, it is not a paying concern, and they cannot go further with it. Now, from the commercial standpoint, this service must drop if we do not help it. I think the fairest way is to state the facts to the House, and let the House decide what is to be done.


George Eulas Foster: Granting everything my hon. friend has said, which is no doubt the true ground, and that it would be a hardship to go sixty miles on one side to find a place to cross over and then sixty miles down on the other, what does it all amount to '! The whole point is the purpose for which the subsidy is paid. For instance, suppose there is a road which makes a long detour of sixty or eighty miles, suppose it is possible to get rid of a portion of this distance, making it probably one-third, one-eighth or one-tenth of the distance, but at the same time at greater cost, they don't come to the Dominion government and ask for that. It seems to me the whole point involved is the making of a traverse way in the province ; it is the same as a road, and it is the provincial government that has to see whether the road is the shortest and best to accommodate the people. Now, if that traverse is necessary, it is the duty of the provincial government to provide a roadway, a highway for its people, which is more convenient than the roundabout higli-wav. As it crosses the water, it becomes a ferry, and it is the provincial government, and not the Dominion government, which should supply it. The amount of money, involving only $2,000 or $3,000, is a mere bagatelle. It is not the amount, but it is some principle that I am now arguing for, and whilst I accept the premises of the argument of my hon. friend, at the same time I would say that the government which has the administration of affairs in the province of Quebec is bound to look after that, and to give to the people better and shorter means of traverse than they have at the present time. Then I go farther in reference to the mail carrying business, and if I were the Postmaster General I would give a fair, and even a generous amount for the mail carrying part of it. A commercial subsidy you cannot call it; it is a travel or mail convenience. It is not for the amount Mr. FITZPATRICK.
of merchandise that is to come and go that it is needed, but it is to put passengers across backwards and forwards and to take the mails backwards and forwards. That is the point of difference.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not like to subscribe unconditionally to the proposition that if this is to encourage and facilitate trade and commerce it is outside the purview of this parliament. On the contrary the encouragement of trade aud commerce, I think, comes distinctly within our jurisdiction. I am not aware that in the province of Quebec or in any other province any description of subsidies which would be an encouragement to trade and commerce would uot belong exclusively to our jurisdiction. I think the conditions there render trade and commerce more difficult without the assistance of this steamship and the parties interested properly apply to us for assistance. I see in the subsidies that we grant every year very considerable amounts for a steam service between St. Stephen, N.B., St. Croix river points, Deer Island, Campobello, the inner islands, Passamaquoddy bay and D'Etete or Black bay and also one between Port Mul-grave and Canso and Halifax and Canso. Are these amounts voted purely for mail service ?


William Paterson: No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Or are they also for the encouragement of trade ?


William Paterson: Yes, trade.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I only wish to point that out. 1 could understand my hon. friend's argument if it were merely a question of establishing ferries. Not only are ferries under the jurisdiction of the provincial authority, but when a bridge is to be built upon a river entirely within the province the authorities interested cannot look to us for assistance. But if you place it on this ground that there are 140 miles of road to be traversed in winter that trade is developing there and when you grant a subsidy to this steamship uot only on account of mail service but on account of trade and commerce of that distant locality I think it comes within our jurisdiction and that it does not belong to the provincial authorities.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In connection with this question it has been a matter of interest to me for a great many years why we do this in the maritime provinces and do not do it in any other portion of the Dominion. If the principle is a proper one we have a right to apply it all over, I could bring to the attention of the hon. minister very many backward places on the Georgian bay where a small subsidy would secure communication by steamer regularly in the summer, whereas, at the present time, steamers only come in casually whenever there are special cargoes for 'them. In many places on the Georgian bay where they have practically

no roads and where they have to travel a long way from one settled village to another to get their mail it would be a great convenience if they could get a small subsidy- whether you call it a commercial subsidy or for the carriage of the mails it does not matter. I know that years and years ago such a subsidy was applied for but refused. So far as my knowledge goes there never was an instance in which it was given. I remember thirty-four or thirty-five, or thirty-six years ago that strong efforts were made to get some assistance from the Dominion of Canada to carry the mails or assist in establishing a route' where the trade that was offered would not pay for a regular boat supply, but they were not successful. I have often wondered why it was that these subsidies were granted for services on the Atlantic coast and refused for service in the heart of Ontario. I never could see why it was justified in one case and not in another. If it is justifiable in one case it should be justifiable in both, but while one is denied it the other gets it.
For services of wrecking plant' on the St. Lawrence for the year ending June .3, 1906, $10,-
000.


George Eulas Foster: What in the world is this 7
paired to the scene and done the work required. In order to have it constantly where it can be readily available for vessels in distress it has been deemed of a sufficient commercial and general importance to the country to pay a subsidy of $10,000. I understand that the large steamship companies have all petitioned for it and this subsidy is granted in response to that petiion. I cannot say more. It has done what was intended to be done. I think it is perfectly satis factory. Gentlemen perhaps more conversant with the subject than I will be able to tell the hon. gentleman what it has done.


George Eulas Foster: What is it that is there 7 You talk about ' it ' 7


William Paterson: It is a steamer, a wrecking plant with all the appliances necessary to render assistance to a vessel when she goes on a rock and is in danger of breaking up. It is thoroughly equipped with all the complimentary machinery and is ready to proceed to render aid. They will get paid from the companies to whom they render assistance. No doubt they will charge them, but this $10,000 will only be justified as a public grant.


George Eulas Foster: It is a sort of a retainer 7


William Paterson: This is a contract made on the 21st June with Mr. Geo. T. Davie the owner in Quebec of a wrecking steamer called the ' Lord Strathcona ' for which the subsidy of $10,000 is granted. That wrecking vessel or apparatus is to be there and at all times ready to render service to vessels that are in distress or wrecked in any way.


George Eulas Foster: Where is it 7


William Paterson: It is stationed at Quebec.


George Eulas Foster: Tell us about it. What is it and what has it done 7


William Paterson: It is a wrecking ap pliance.


George Eulas Foster: How long have you had it there 7


William Paterson: Several years.


George Eulas Foster: Tell us what it has done all these several years 7


William Paterson: It has attended any vessels that have been wrecked near the coast.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. minister knows that is not an answer to say that it has attended any vessels. What vessels 7 He should give us the results.


William Paterson: I cannot give you them, I have not got them. The report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries will show that. But, it has done it in every case. It is kept there for the express purpose of being ready in case of any accident taking place, and I suppose in every case it has re-


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is what it really is.


William Paterson: This amount does not pay the vessel for its services, but as the hon. gentleman says it may be termed a retainer so that the vessel may be at the spot where it is readily available.


Mr. BLAIN.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if there are any wrecking appliances in that district that are not subsidized coming into competition with this one that is subsidized 7


William Paterson: Not that I know of. Perhaps the Minister of Justice knows 7


Richard Blain: I think that is rather an important question.


William Paterson: I believe that this is the only one there.


Charles Fitzpatrick: We have in Quebec a very large graving dock that is the property of the government. Mr. Geo. Davie has been for years past the proprietor of a large wrecking plant. At one time he was the owner of a wrecking steamer called the ' Lord Stanley.' He was in the habit of using this wrecking plant to salve vessels at any point in the St. Lawrence and at -times he has gone down as far as the United States with his plant. I might say that it is the only plant in Quebec and that it is considered the best wrecking plant in Canada. In consequence of his using his plant for the purpose of going out of the St. Lawrence at times wrecks have occurred which have resulted disastrously because the means to salve the vessels were not readily

accessible. Some four or five years ago tiie owners of vessels at Montreal applied to tlie government to see if arrangements could not be made with Mr. Davie to keep bis wrecking plant always available for wrecks in the St. Lawrence. Every one who is familiar with the conditions in the lower St. Lawrence understands the advantage to a wrecked vessel of a wrecking plant being abie to go to its assistance at the earliest possible moment. As a result of the negotiations then entered into between the government and the shipping people of Montreal, Mr. Davie sold the - Lord Stanley ' and bought the present ' Lord Strathcona,' which has cost him something in the neighbourhood of $125,000 or $130,000 ; the understanding being that he would get a boat of that calibre which is greater than he required at the time, to facilitate the work of wrecking in the St. Lawrence. He was to get this retainer, as the bon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) has correctly described it, on the understanding that his wrecking plant must always remain at Quebec, so as to be available for any call that may arise in any part of the St. Lawrence, and the wrecking plant cannot leave the St. Lawrence without the consent of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. It is to be always accessible for wrecks in the St. Lawrence.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not rising to object to this, but I would call attention to the unfairness of the treatment of one locality as compared with another. For many years there have been wrecking plants on the Georgian bay and at times there has been serious competition from American wrecking plants coming in there. Efforts have been made from time to time to get the government to put some restriction on these American plants coming in, because the company -who have their money invested in the Canadian plants were not earning enough to make them pay and yet what work there was was divided up with the Americans. They received no assistance from the government either by way of subsidy or by coasting trade regulations. They were obliged to stand on their own bottom and continue as long as they could. Why apply one principle to Quebec and another to Georgian bay ? If the principle is correct in the one instance it must be equally correct in the other, and in my judgment the argument for assistance is much stronger on behalf of the Georgian bay wrecking plants owing to the very much more scattered nature of the shipping there. I call attention to this because I notice that in many lines there seems to be a distinction drawn beween one part of the country and the other.


Andrew B. Ingram: This wrecking plant has been in existence for years. It was not necessary for this government or any other to grant a subsidy to this company to main-Mr. FITZPATRICK.
tain a wrecking plant. It was when Captain Leslie removed from Kingston and took his plant down the St. Lawrence, that it was found necessary to give a subsidy to the Davie Company, and there is where the unfairness of this comes in. Here is a failwrecking competition as between Leslie and Davie and in order to help Davie out he is given this subsidy of $10,000 a year.


Charles Fitzpatrick: What happened to Leslie when he went to Newfoundland ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Wrecking is turned over to Davie and there is where the disadvantage to Leslie comes in. What are the government doing in addition to this ? By their treatment of Davie they are preventing that competition which vessels would have in the St. Lawrence by granting this $10,000 a year. It is unfair to Leslie who is in competition with Davie for the matter to be put in that position.


Charles Fitzpatrick: In what respect did he enter into competition with Leslie ? We all know that there have been wrecks in the St. Lawrence from time immemorial. I venture to say that during the past 20 years Captain Leslie had never gone down beyond Montreal except once, when he went to Newfoundland, and I think he has regretted that trip ever since.


Andrew B. Ingram: A vessel man made the statement in this House that Captain Leslie did wrecking in the St. Lawrence, and very successfully, and I prefer taking the word of a vessel man even to that of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick).


Charles Fitzpatrick: If my hon. friend will take the responsibility of making that statement of course I accept it, but I make the statement with some knowledge of Quebec-and I have been connected with the mercantile life of Quebec for many years-I make the statement that Captain Leslie has never gone below Montreal to the assistance of a wreck except in one instance when he went to Newfoundland, and we all know what occurred then.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am very glad that the minister made that statement. Possibly in a few days we shall see whether the statement of a vessel owner in this House or that of the Minister of Justice is correct.


Robert Laird Borden: The question seems to me to be whether or not it is a fair commercial venture. Was there any difficulty about wrecking in the St. Lawrence before this subsidy was granted ? There are wrecking plants in the maritime provinces, possibly none of them quite so extensive as this, although some of them are very efficient as I happen to know by reason of hav ing been professionally engaged in connection with claims where their services were being valued. They have always existed without any subsidy so far as I know, but

1 am prepared to concede ttiat conditions may be different in the St. Lawrence. I would like to have information on tnat point.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think the venture was successful, in fact Mr. Davie is a very rich man, and I think he made all his money out of the wrecking plant except some that he made out of repairs which he made in his dry dock. The question as I understood it was whether or not we could keep that valuable wrecking plant for exclusive use in the St. Lawrence, as I understood it. Of course these negotiations were not carried on through me.
The question was not whether this was a good venture. I am quite satisfied that as far as Mr. Davie himself is concerned, he was prepared to go on doing his business as he did, free to go wherever he liked. But the special purpose of this retainer was to keep his apparatus exclusively for the St. Lawrence. I think the original subsidy or retainer was $5,000. I do not think Mr. Davie has ever approached the department on the subject. It has all been done through the underwriters and shipowners of Montreal. He decided that $5,000 was not sufficient, and it was increased, if I remember rightly, to $10,000. So far as Mr. Davie is concerned, it is simply a business agreement. He has to consider whether it would suit him better to keep his plant for the St. Lawrence for a retainer of $10,000, or to be free to go where he likes either on the St. Lawrence or on the Atlantic. For instance, one of the things that occurred was this, Mr. Davie has the most powerful tug on this side of the Atlantic, the ' Lord Strathcona,' which he was in the habit of using to tow ships from the St. Lawrence around to New York. That has not happened very often, but it has happened ; and my hon. friend the leader of the opposition will understand how profitable such work as that is. But Mr. Davie is now barred from doing work of that kind by this retainer. This boats must remain exclusively for use in the St. Lawrence. The only question is whether it is a good business proposition.


George Eulas Foster: The minister has a contract with Mr. Davie ?


William Paterson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Does he know what the terms of the contract are ?


William Paterson: I have sent for it.


George Eulas Foster: Has the Department of Trade and Commerce any reports as to the actual work which has been done in the way of wrecking by Mr. Davie ? If it has not, does it not think it should have ? If you give a retainer to a lawyer, you want to know whether he does any business for you. If you give a retainer to Mr. Davie, it is given in order that he may devote himself to wrecking in a certain area. What track 31
has the Department of Trade and Commerce kept of his operations ? It should have a report of every wrecking operation in which he has been engaged, and should be able to make certain that he has fulfilled his contract and has not gone beyond the bounds within which his contract limits him. But the matter has another aspect to me. It is sometimes wise to ask what other countries do in this respect. Does the minister know whether in the United States or in Great Britain the government has ever considered it necessary to give a retainer to one particular wrecking firm in this way in order to get its services, and to bind it to a certain portion of the commercial wrecking area ? I doubt very much whether such a policy has been adopted by any other country. If it has not, there must have been some good reason, either that it was not necessary or that some ill-effects come from it. I can see easily what ill-effect will come fiom this arrangement. It will absolutely paralyze all private wrecking energy and enterprise in the St. Lawrence. The moment it is known that one firm has a retainer for doing wrecking in the St. Lawrence, no private firm will establish a wrecking plant, and every firm that is in the business will go out of it, knowing that the competition is unfair, and in a little while you will come down to a monopoly. What happens then V Just what is happening now. $5,000 was at first considered a sufficient retainer. A year or two afterwards double the amount was considered necessary. Go on for another year or two, and you have a call for $15,000 or $20,000. It works that way, because you put yourself absolutely in the power of one company. The very policy which the government has adopted with regard to dredging is a negative answer to this system. You say you cannot trust your dredging to corporate or individual enterprise, and you have to build your own dredges in order to be independent. You meet with still another difficulty. If the government has to give a retainer for wrecking in a great mart or channel like the St. Lawrence river, with many vessels and with a proportionate number of wrecks, what reason is there why the government should not come to the aid of equally or more dangerous coasts in British Columbia or in the maritime provinces where trade and commerce is imperilled every day in the year ? I venture to say that there is not a man in half a million in the Dominion who imagines that the government has gone the length of giving a retainer to one firm for a wrecking apparatus. If they did they would realize the injustice of it. I am not saying a word against the necessity of having a good wrecking apparatus ; but the question is whether the government should step in and paralyze the initiative of the individual and the corporation by retaining here and there some large firm to carry on the work of wrecking within a certain area. It strikes me that this matter is more



important than it has probably seemed to some of ns before we began to look into it and think about it.


William Paterson: Of course, it has had the approval of the committee for several sessions. I think the argument of the hon. gentleman would be a very strong one if there were other companies that could be relied upon at all times to render help if help were needed. But I am informed that there is no wrecking company making any complaint with reference to this arrangement. It would be manifestly unfair to subsidize one firm when without a subsidy we could have competition from different firms; but in the position of affairs which is represented to me, in which we have the absolute benefit of having a very strong wrecking plant always available, and we get that by a subsidy without which we could not get a wrecking plant at all, the question for the committee to consider is whether in the public interest the subsidy should be continued. On the great lakes, to whieh reference has been made, there is competition. We have more that one wrecking plant and the Americans have their wrecking plants, and there is a certain degree of reciprocity. As to the other question of the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Foster) as to whether any other government is giving a subsidy under those conditions, I am not aware of it. The question will have to be judged on the points I have mentioned. Could you get what you have now without a subsidy and also what is desirable in the interests of shipping ? If you cannot, is it worth, in the general interests, the amount we pay in order to secure what we have ?


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. minister assumes, as justification for asking for this vote, that there is no competition in wrecking in the St. Lawrence river. He has allowed two or three items to stand, and i hope a few days will be allowed to elapse before they are taken up so that we may obtain information which will prove that there are other wrecking plants and other men willing to go into that line of business in the St. Lawrence. There are other wrecking plants whose owners consider this favouritism to Mr. Davie as unfair to them. Only a year ago very strong complaints were made by these men. The vessel men were asked to sign a petition asking that the Davie plant be subsidized for the purpose of assisting wrecks in the St. Lawrence and they signed it, but they did so very unwillingly and because they were in this unfortunate position that if a wreck took place, the Davies had a monopoly of the business. It is not fair to say there were no complaints, because here are complaints and serious ones. Capt. Leslie has good grounds for complaint and has complained, and the department is aware of the fact.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I hope my hon. friend the Minister of Customs will allow this item to Mr. FOSTER.
stand. The amount is a large one, but it is not to that so much we are objecting as to the principle involved. We have no precise information from the hon. gentleman. What we do know is that this retaining of a wrecking plant is not practised anywhere else and I hardly think that my hon. friend's analogy between retaining a wrecking plant and giving a retainer to a lawyer has any bearing on the subject. We know that Mr. Davie has made a great deal of money in this business, but because he cannot tow boats around from Quebec to New York- and that seems a very extraordinary enterprise for him to embark upon-we are asked to give him a retainer. We have no information as to what has been the effect of this retaining of Mr. Davie. What did be do last year in return for his retainer ? We are given no account of what he did when asked to vote this amount. This item ought to come under the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and we ought to know exactly what Mr. Davie did last year and what prospects there are of his doing sufficient this year to justify this subsidy.


William Paterson: What my hon. friend asks is not unreasonable. No doubt the Minister of Mairne and Fisheries will have full record of the wrecks that have taken place. I am told that the condition of the contract requiring this plant to be always available has been always complied with. We have certificates to that effect signed by the officers of the Customs Department, but in view of the statement made by the hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Ingram), who spoke with apparent knowledge, I do not think we would be warranted in pressing this item until he has the opportunity of giving the facts to the committee, so that we may know fully in what position we are. We will, therefore, allow the item to stand.


Robert Laird Borden: With regard to what the hon. minister has said as to reciprocity In the use of wrecking plants, I am not very familiar with the laws of the United States but I am under the impression that our wrecking vessels are not allowed to conduct salvage operations on the American Coast.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not know what
the laws of the United States are on that point, but I know that the 'Stanley ' went around and towed vessels down' to New York.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman is absolutely correct about that. There is no objection to her towing, but I would hardly think that this wrecking plant would be allowed to conduct salvage operations on the coast of the United States. So far as the maritime provinces are concerned, I do not think that it has done much on our coast. I know that it has on the coast of Newfoundland, and I know it has come into competition there with wrecking plants from the province of Nova Scotia. Another considera-

tion we should not lose sight of is that the granting of this subsidy undoubtedly tends to discourage individual enterprise, because those engaged in similar work in the maritime provinces could hardly be expected to compete on equal terms with a wrecking plant which gets an annual subsidy.


George Eulas Foster: Would the hon. minister also give us the amount of salvage which Mr. Davie has received each year from the wrecking he has done ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I know for a fact that the Americans do not allow our Canadian wrecking plants to operate in their waters, because the wrecking plant that was for years in the Georgian bay applied to the Americans for reciprocal rights and were refused, although American wrecking plants can come to Canadian waters to attend to wrecks. Then this company contended that it would be unprofitable for them to keep up their plant unless something was done to assist them or to relieve them of the difficulties which they had to contend with owing to the American wrecking plants there. But nothing was done. It is the grant of assistance in one locality and its refusal in another that I think is wrong.


Richard Blain: If a certain amount of money is necessary to keep a wrecking plant on the St. Lawrence, that money should not be given in the shape of a subsidy to one concern. I am inclined to think it would be better for the government to promote competition between wrecking plants and, at the close of the year, to give the money to the company that has done the best service for the public, iifstead of establishing a monopoly as the government is now doing. Perhaps the minister would be prepared to express an opinion on that subject when the item is again up for consideration.


William Paterson: I will mention the matter to the minister.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think it would be well to ask the minister also, why there is no retainer for Mr. Leslie. There was discussion of this subject on the 25th of July last, from which it appears that we only began paying the retainer to the present company after Mr. Leslie went down there. Speaking as a lawyer, I think if we retain Mr. Davie, we ought to retain Mr. Leslie also. He has done quite a lot of work there and stands in the same position as Mr. Davie' does.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Has he done a lot of work there ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It appears so from the discussion of last year. Mr. Reid, who is well informed, and who is a shipowner, stated- and he was not contradicted by the Minister of Trade and Commerce-that Mr. Leslie had done a lot of work there.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Below Montreal ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I believe so.
31i


Charles Marcil: Item 187 stands.
Steam service between Petit de Grat and the Intercolonial Railway terminus at Mulgrave, $3,000.


William Paterson: This is a contract made with Messrs. Hugh Cann & Son, of Yarmouth. The steamer is the ' Percy Cann.' The contract expires this summer. The terminal ports are Petit de Grat and Mulgrave, and the services daily, calling at Arichat and West Ariehat when required. The boat carries the mail.


George Eulas Foster: What is the length of the trip ?


William Paterson: About 27 miles, I am informed by a member who knows the locality.


George Eulas Foster: What is the character of the vessel ?


William Paterson: A vessel of ninety tons. This is a direct service and brings large quantities of freight, largely fish, for shipment on the Intercolonial Railway.
Steam service between St. John, N.B., Westport and other way ports, $1,500.


William Paterson: The hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) knows the geography of this part of the country.


George Eulas Foster: I know where St. John is, as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Paterson) knows where Brantford is.


William Paterson: This is a contract made on the 21st of October last and expires on the 30th of June next. The contractors are the Insular Steamship Company, Limited. The steamship is the ' Westboro III,' and the terminal ports are St. John, N.B. and Westport and Yarmouth, calling at intermediate ports ; to make sixteen trips from November 1 to March 1 and twelve trips from April 1 to June 30. It is not stipulated, that the vessel shall carry the mails, and I do not know whether she does or not.
Steam communication between St. John, Digby and Annapolis and Granville, viz., along the west side of Annapolis Basin, $1,500.


William Paterson: There is no change. The contractors are the Valley Steamship Company, Limited. The contract expires on the 1st of July next. The steamship is the ' Granville.' The terminal ports are St. John, N.B., Annapolis Royal and Granville Ferry, N.S. During the winter months the trips from St. John are allowed to terminate at Digby. Time and weather permitting calls are to be made at certain intermediate ports. Carrying the mails is not stipulated. There is accommodation for forty passengers and 1,000 barrels of cargo.
Steam service between Annapolis and Hull, England, $5,000.


William Paterson: I move that that be amended so as to make it read between Annapolis, Hull and London, Eng.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
['I move that that be amended so as to make it read between Annapolis, Hull and London, Eng.']
George Eulas Foster: Is that a fruit service ?


William Paterson: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: How many round trips do we procure ?


William Paterson: Five trips between October 10, 1904, and January 31. I suppose the trips are all made in the fall. There are four steamers of a capacity of 8,000 or 8,500 barrels. The service is extended so that they touch at London as well as Hull. It is the Acadia Steamship Company, Limited. With reference to the cold storage, the ships guarantee that they are built expressly for carrying fruits, with proper and sufficient ventilation, with sufficient convenience for fruit or other perishable produce shipped on a sea voyage in a satisfactory condition.


George Eulas Foster: It would be interesting to know how much has been carried.


William Paterson: No doubt there has been a large trade.


George Eulas Foster: The minister will bring that down.
Steam service during the year 1905-6 between Quebec and Natashquan, calling at ports and places along the northern shore ot River St. Lawrence between such terminals, $3,000.


William Paterson: This service is performed by the steamship ' St. Lawrence,' with a tonnage of 532, and 300 net, and a speed of 10 knots per hour. It is a tri-monthly service, carrying the mails.


George Eulas Foster: What is the distance from Quebec to Natashquan ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Five hundred and thirty miles. Natashquan is a little below the eastern limit of Anticosti Island, on the north coast of the St. Lawrence. This boat calls at stated ports. Last year she performed three trips until somewhere at the end of October she got on the rocks, where she is now. She was the old ' Douro ' that used to run down there when she was owned by the Frasers. She was sold about two years ago, and was repaired and recast, and called the ' St. Lawrence.' Last October she was wrecked.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I heard complaints about that service last year.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes ; they came near having a dreadful catastrophe at the time the vessel was wrecked. It was found she was not properly equipped.


Herbert Brown Ames: Are this boat and the 'King Edward ' both subsidized ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: Yes. If there is any part of this country that ought to receive some attention it is the north shore Mr. PATERSON.
of the St. Lawrence. Many industries are being established on that shore all the way from Tadousac down to Blanc Sablon. I think there are at least, to my knowledge, a dozen industries down there now, pulp and timber. There is the Eastern Company, the Dobell, Beckett & Company, and other firms established on that shore, and they have absolutely no means of access except through these steamers. My hon. friend will remember the fishing industries they have down there on the Moisie river and below. If I could have my way I would subsidize two boats, and would endeavour to have a weekly service. You cannot meet the case with only one boat. I would have a weekly service, with two boats, and endeavour to make them comply with the terms of their contract.


Herbert Brown Ames: Is there any clause in their contract which compels these boats to keep up their regular service ? A year or so ago, you will remember, the ' King Edward ' several times voluntarily abandoned its regular service in order to engage in profitable wrecking operations. I was on the north coast at the time, and I know it was a great inconvenience to the people of that section to have this steamer, on several occasions, abandon her trips entirely and leave the passengers, who had been planning to take her, for several weeks in out-of-the-way places.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Years ago numbers of people on the lower St. Lawrence used to come up to Quebec to purchase their winter supplies towards the end of the season. On one occasion, because the owners of the ' King Edward ' thought the weather was not favourable they said they would not go down, and it was necessary for the government to interfere and get one of the government steamers to take these people back. That happened two years ago last autumn. I think that shore ought to be attended to properly, and my view would be that we should have a proper service, and to have that two boats at least would be required.


Herbert Brown Ames: My first question was whether the government, in return for the subsidies, were requiring the Holliday Brothers, who were the owners of the ' King Edward,' to make three trips regularly according to the schedule.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I think it requires they shall make a certain number of trips, but it does not fix the dates of sailing. That is where the inconvenience comes in. As long as they make two trips monthly, it is immaterial what date they select for start-ng.


Mr. OSLER.: I agree that that service should be fully carried out. I understood the minister to say that that boat was badly equipped. Surely, if this government subsidizes boats, they ought to see that they

are properly inspected before the subsidy is paid.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not want to speak in criticism, but it seems to me time to take some steps in this country to prevent such terrible disasters as that which took place on the ' Slocum ' in New York. Certainly, from information of some of my firiends who were on board the ' St. Lawrence ' when she was wrecked, the vessel was not equipped as she ought to have been.
I make the statement, not in criticism of my colleagues, as, of course, nothing of the sort is intended, but simply because I think that perhaps the officials ought to be notified of the necessity of looking after these vessels and seeing to it that they have all the requirements that the law makes necessary.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Would it not be an easy matter to make it a rule that no subsidy shall be granted to any vessel until it is thoroughly inspected?


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is implied.


Edmund Boyd Osler: It is implied but evidently in this case it has not been carried out.


George Eulas Foster: I do not think it has been definitely stated yet whether that vessel got her" full subsidy. It seems to have been fully stated here to-night that she did not do her work, that she actually abandoned her voyage and went in for salvage. Has the money been paid yet?


William Paterson: Not yet.


George Eulas Foster: That is still being held back?


William Paterson: So I am told. You are discussing the St. Lawrence ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: That was two years ago.


George Eulas Foster: Well I want to know whether she got her subsidy or not. It is the 'King Edward' that I am referring to.


William Paterson: I am told that the claim was that they did their work between trips. The subsidy was earned and it was paid. I understood the bon. minister was talking about the St. Lawrence when I made my previous statement.


George Eulas Foster: Is it not a fact that the Department of Marine and Fisheries makes a careful inspection of all passenger vessels that ply in our waters?


Charles Fitzpatrick: The law requires them to do so.


George Eulas Foster: They require to have their certificates and they cannot sail under steam unless the boilers, equipment and hull are inspected. It was a rather startling statement that was made by the hon. Minister of Justice that one of these vessels was found to be totally unequipped, or almost so, and it would be sad if we were to be wakened up some day by a Slocum disaster. That seems to be an imputation on the officers of the department.


Charles Fitzpatrick: I made the complaint directly to my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. PrS-fontaine) and in answer to my complaint he produced a certificate which purported to emanate from his office at Quebec. He said: There is the certificate of inspection. On the other hand a gentleman on board the boat in whom I have the greatest possible confidence made a statement to the contrary effect.


Herbert Brown Ames: I would like to ask the hon. minister whether the department has taken into consideration the enlarging of the subsidy in return for extending the trip beyond Natashquau. There are three Reid boats on three sides of Newfoundland. One goes up the wTest coast, crosses over to the Canadian Labrador, and passes a certain distance down from the straits of Belle Isle, but there is a gap between the ultimate western port of the Newfoundland service and the ultimate eastern port of this line. This gap is between Natashquan and Blanc Sablon. There is a stretch of country which has no service at all. I would ask the hon. minister if he has considered the advisability of extending the service of the 'King Edward.' I was informed by the parties who own the ' King Edward,' when I was taking a trip down there some time ago, that it was only a question of money with them. They informed me that they could continue their trip, make two trips a month and that they were perfectly willing to do so. There is a considerable population between Natashquan and Blanc Sablon.


George Eulas Foster: We have a subsidy for that.


Charles Fitzpatrick: It is the 'King Edward' that goes down there.


George Eulas Foster: There is another one-No. 175.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That is the ' King Edward.' In answer to my hon. friend (Mr. Ames) my idea was, having been interested to some extent in this matter through the hon. member for Chicoutimi and Saguenay (Mr. Girard), who wrote to me several times upon the subject that we ought to have two boats, one a larger boat than the * King Edward,' and that both of them should have regular sailing days from Quebec or Montreal, as the case might be. One would go right down to the straits. One boat could make two trips a month and the other would make an intervening trip, and we might have three or four trips a month. The business down there would certainly support a service such as that. A great many tourists go down there, a great many men go down in the fishing season in addi-


George Eulas Foster: What vessel is doing that service?


William Paterson: The 'Brunswick.'


Edmund Boyd Osler: This looks to me to be the same subsidy as that voted in item 163.


George Eulas Foster: It does except that Cumberland Basin is added.


William Paterson: It is very nearly the same. I think we will let that stand. I see the name of the contractor is the same. It will be worth looking into so as to see whether it is a duplication or not


Charles Marcil: Item 194 stands.


George Eulas Foster: I think the hon. minister probably will find that it is wrongly expressed in the wording. The last vote is probably for a vessel which plies around the different ports of the Basin of Minas and Cumberland basin and makes connection with a steamer sailing to St. John but does not come to St. John itself.


William Paterson: I have that information here. The terminal ports of item 163 are St. John and Minas basin ports, Spencer's Island, Canning, Wolfville, Parrsboro', Kingsport, Maitland and Ross river, while the ports of item 194 are St. John, Spencer Island, Canning, Wolfville, Parrsboro' Kingsport and Maitland. It is very nearly the same service.
Direct monthly steam communication between Canada and South Africa, $146,000.
Mi. PA1ERSON. This is a service tin contract for which was entered into witli Messrs. 1* unless-Withy & Co. and Messrs. Eldei-Dempster & Co. They joined forces for this service and the contract was made them to last five years from October 1, 1902 to October 1, 1907. The steamers of course, were not specified by name but they were to be of 5,000 tons net register and their speed was to be not less than 10 knots. The. terminal points are Montreal and Quebee in summer and St. John and Halifax in winter. It is stipulated that they shall call at three ports in South Africa, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and Durban. They are to make monthly trips and the Mr. FITZPATRICK.



[Stage Direction]
Elder-Dempster & Co.
Montreal, Feb. 4, 1905.
F. C. T. O'Hara, Esq.,
Acting Deputy Minister,
Department of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Mr. O'Hara,-I am to-day in receipt of yours of the 3rd instant re cargoes carried by the South African steamers, for six months ending, we will say, with the February steamer, which is to sail on or about the 18th instant. We are including this steamer as we have her now practically fully booked.
The six months commencing with September, 1903, and ending with February, 1904. The steamers of the joint service, during this period carried practically full cargoes. A large proportion of the cargoes were composed of Canadian wheat and flour. We also had large shipments of Canadian lumber, more particularly red pine, and a fair quantity of manufactured Canadian goods, such as furniture, carriages, agricultural implements, ploughs, &c. We also had considerable shipments of Quaker oats, manufactured at Peterborough, Ont., also considerable metallic roofing. In the refrigerators of our steamers we had very heavy shipments of mild cured bacon, shipped by the Laing Packing and Provision [Company, Montreal, about 300 tons for each departure. We also had during October and November several thousand barrels of apples.
From September, 1904, to February, 1905. The steamer that sailed in September carried about three-quarters of a cargo, about sixty per cent being Canadian and forty per cent American. Owing to the contract by the Laing Packing Company with the Imperial Cold Storage Company, of Cape Town, having expired, the refrigerators carried a much smaller quantity of Canadian products than went in the same month in 1903. The steamer that sailed in October was a full ship, she had in her refrigerator equal to about 3,000 barrels of Canadian apples. Her cargo wrns composed principally of Canadian flour, considerably planed pine lumber, and manufactured lumber, such as doors, sashes, &c. The steamer that sailed in November, which was the steamship * Melville ' was about three-quarters full. Her cargo was composed of about fifty per cent of manufactured goods of Canadian origin and fifty per cent of American. The next steamer was the ' Etolia ' which sailed in December. This steamer carried practically a full cargo. Since her departure a decided improvement has taken place in the South African business, the financial position appears to have considerably changed, and in consequence the ' Wyandotte,' which sailed the end of January, had a very large cargo, and

sailed a full ship. She only took sufficient coal for the voyage to South Africa. Besides a large quantity of miscellaneous cargo, she had about 55,000 sacks of Canadian flour, but we are sorry to say she had very little refrigerator goods. The next departure will be the steamship * Melville ' in February. This steamer is fully booked. Her cargo will be largely composed of flour, practically eighty per cent' Canadian. At the present time we have secured about 55,000 sacks of flour, and about 200,000 feet of planed white pine, and about 20 cars of Quaker oats made at Peterborough, Ont.
Owing to better trade conditions in South Africa a decided improvement has taken place fh the demand, and our South African agent advises us that the corner has now been turned and that a continuance is expected. We are also advised that the preference is materially helping the importation of 'Canadian goods.
I am,
Yours very truly,

[Stage Direction]
X concur in Xiis eonculding remark; I think that there will be a great advantage. We have now a preference in South Africa, our freight rates will be as low as those from the United States and with the preference, if we maintain the quality of our goods, the trade should greatly increase. Repeat orders are evidently being received now according to this statement as to flour and other items. In my own business my anxiety is not to make first sales, but to secure repeat orders. If you receive the repeat orders you know you have your customer, and as there are repeat orders coming in here I am led to believe that our people are sending goods there that will command the market if they once get a foothold and the preference I consider will be of so much advantage to us that it will turn the trade in our favour as against our American friends. I fully look for that and it will be very gratifying.
George Eulas Foster: Will the minister tell us what information he has in regard to return cargoes ? That is an important point to know as well.	.


William Paterson: The trade is largely in our favour. We sent them $2,380,000, and they only sent us $69,000.


George Eulas Foster: We did not send that by our vessels. What we are trying to find out is whether there can be a mutual trade. The statement the minister read with reference to the outgo, I consider satisfactory, but we cannot keep the trade up for ever or very long unless we get return cargoes. It would be interesting to the committee to know just what came back in each of these vessels.


William Paterson: The hon. gentleman means that we cannot keep up the transportation long unless there are return cargoes. The companies have taken that risk for the number of years that I mentioned.


George Eulas Foster: But unless they can get a trade that will work both ways, they cannot carry it on unless we pay for it.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How many vessels are engaged in that traffic ?


William Paterson: There is one-a month.
I have not a list of them.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: A monthly trip between Canada and South Africa would re-, quire a fleet of more than twelve vessels.


William Paterson: No it takes about 30 days to go there.


John Howard Sinclair: I think a ship can go to South Africa easily in thirty days. At the time of the war some ships carried hay in about that time. Do these ships call at ports of the United States as well as Canada ?


William Paterson: No. American goods are shipped from Canadian ports.


William Findlay Maclean: We have been discussing these subsidies all afternoon, and for the first time we have a succinct statement with regard to the trade pertaining to a single subsidy. Why is there not a similar report furnished by the Department of Trade and Commerce with reference to each vote ? The agent of a steamship company can in half an hour dictate an intelligent letter showing thfe whole condition of the trade, and giving us the satisfactory information that it is growing. Why should not the same kind of information be given to the House and the country in regard to every one of these subsidies. I do not believe in spending large sums of money in maintaining great departments which do nothing for the country, and I hope that before another session we shall have an intelligent report like this one in regard to every one of these votes.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister get some information from the agent in regard to the return cargoes ?


William Paterson: I dare say Mr. Campbell can furnish that.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What ports in Canada do the boats call at 7


William Paterson: Montreal and Quebec in summer and Halifax and St. John in winter.


Edmund Boyd Osler: At what ports in the United States do they call ?


William Paterson: They do not call at United States ports. United States goods are shipped from Canadian ports, but Canadian goods get the preference by receiving ten days' notice ahead.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Are the rates charged on American goods the same as those charged on Canadian ?


William Paterson: Yes.


David Henderson: I scarcely think that is fair-, when we have to pay the subsidy, and the United States pay nothing. That

is giving the Americans a preference over the Canadians. I think they should pay something additional in order to make up for our subsidy. It is quite proper that Canadians should get the preference ; but if Americans want to ship goods in our subsidized vessels, surely they should pay some premium for the privilege. We assume that we get lower rates because of the subsidy we pay.


William Paterson: When this contract was being made, if we had insisted that the vessels should be restricted to take Canadian goods alone, the probability is that no contract of this nature would have been made. The Canadian trade had to be almost created, but Canadian goods get the preference.


David Henderson: When this subsidy was first granted, I understood that our vessels did call at American ports and take on American products of a similar character to our own, and carried them to South Africa In the vesesls that we subsidized, and placed them on the same market on which we put our goods. I scarcely think it is fair to our Canadian producers that we should subsidize vessels to carry American products to the very 'markets we want to get. I would rather give a larger subsidy and leave the American goods at home, and let our own goods get all the market. I do not think for a moment that we should carry American goods to be sold in competition with our own, and certainly not to enhance the price that we get for our goods, but rather to depreciate the price. It seems to me the Minister of Trade and Commerce should give this matter a little more consideration to make it fair to Canadians.


William Paterson: Should not the hon. gentleman give it a little more consideration ? Suppose a steamer were sailing with half a cargo of Canadian goods, and were consequently forced to charge a certain rate. If it could get another half cargo, which would enable it to reduce the rate correspondingly, would that not be an advantage to the Canadian shipper? The hon. gentleman must remember that the American is not the only competitor the Canadian Shipper has in the market. He has to meet English and German competitors as well. What we should have is a preference for Canadian goods and that is secured to us. The contract is a very good one for Canadian producers and I anticipate that we are going to do a large trade with South Africa.


David Henderson: I was under the impression, when the subsidy was first granted, that our vessels called at American ports, but I may possibly have been mistaken. I think the principle all wrong of subsidizing vessels to carry American goods to a market we want to supply. It would Mr. HENDERSON.
be better for our producers to pay a little more freight and not have this competition. It may be that the United States goods which are shipped alongside of ours in the same vessel will be goods that will come into competition with ours, and a small fraction of difference in freight would not compare with the loss that may be sustained through this competition. For instance, apples may be sent from the United States as well as from Canada, we may also have American cheese sent in these same vessels which carry Canadian cheese, and these may depreciate the Canadian goods. It may be that in this way we will be depressing the market to the injury of my hon. friend from North Perth (Mr. Maclaren), who, I understand, ships cheese to a large extent from Canada to South Africa and even to Mexico. We heard the Postmaster General describing the large amount of cheese he saw inthat latter country. I trust that the subsidy to be paid vessels running to Mexico will not be paid to vessels which call at American ports and which will carry American cheese and thus lower the price in that market of the cheese which the hon. member for North Perth is sending there. I would like him to get the very best prices possible, and a slight reduction in freight, consequent upon the vessel carrying American cheese, would not compensate him for the loss that would result from this competition.


William Paterson: My hon. friend must remember that American goods shipped in American bottoms might be of the same class as the Canadian goods shipped in these subsidized vessels, and we would not really have the market exclusively to ourselves in any case. The Americans are not limited to shipping by this line, but I think that we will be found in this position, that the cheese shipped by the hon. member for North Perth will be found superior to anything the Americans can send, and I have no doubt that we will be in a similar position as regards other lines. ,


David Henderson: I quite agree with the hon. minister that our Canadian cheese is superior to the American. That is the reputation it has in the old country, and no doubt it will have the same reputation in the South African market, but there is this danger that the inferior cheese will be quoted against our better cheese, and the South Africans may not at first be able to discriminate between the two. But if the cheese and other products of the United States can be sent in American vessels, why do they send them to Canada to be shipped by our vessels? We are subsidizing vessels to carry American products. The Americans do not seem to have a line of steamers from New York to South Africa which will carry freight as cheaply as ours, and I am still of the opinion we should not

encourage that American trade in our bottoms. Even suppose there should be ten per cent of the space not filled up, this company which is getting the subsidy ought to be still prepared to give us a fair rate.


William Paterson: Canadian freight has the preference over American freight, but the question is whether it would not be in the interest of Canada to allow these vessels to complete their cargo with American goods rather than to go with only a part cargo. There is this other point, that the preference which has been granted to us in South Africa will be very advantageous, not only in the way of preference, but also in the way of determining what are Canadian goods. I look to great benefit from the preferential arrangements we have made with South Africa. I think it was generous on their part to enter into such an arrangement, for it looks as if, in the course of trade, we may hope to do a larger trade with them than they can hope to do with us.


David Henderson: I fail to see where the existence of a preference alters the other case at all.


Alexander Martin: What restrictions are there on those vessels with regard to freight rates ? Will Canadian goods have a preferJ ence or can the company give a preference to American goods by charging them a lower rate ? At any rate, American goods should not be carried at lower rates than Canadian goods. If there is to be discrimination it should be in favour of Canadian* goods. If the contract does not prevent the granting of lower rates to Americans it ought to do so.


William Paterson: The rates are not specified in the contract. The deputy minister says there is no discrimination against Canadian goods.


Alexander Martin: Is there anything to prevent a preference being given to American goods?


William Paterson: I do not know that there is.


Alexander Martin: I submit that there should be. Suppose a vessel is at Montreal with a two-thirds cargo. To get the other third, the owners might offer to carry American can goods at cheaper rates. This would place Canadian shippers at a disadvantage, and there should be something to prevent it.


William Paterson: I have not the contract before me, but the deputy tells me that it expressly provides that there shall not be discrimination against Canadian trade.


Alexander Martin: I think it is important that we should have the contract before us-


George William Fowler: This is a very important point that the hon. member for Queen's
(Mr. A. Martin) has raised. When we give this large subsidy there certainly should be no discrimination against Canadian trade. I do not say that there is anything improper in vessels subsidized by Canada carrying American freight. We want to carry the trade of the world, if we can, but we must not pay a subsidy and allow those who enjoy it to discriminate against our own people.


William Findlay Maclean: Hon. gentlemen who have spoken on this subject have only raised the fringe of a very important question, which applies not only to steamships, but to the railways that we have so heavily subsidized. Of the thousand millions invested in Canadian railways, over one-quarter came from the people of Canada. And to-day the Department of Railways, this government, and the Railway Commission, allow these great roads to carry traffic of the United States that competes with our products in the old country through Canada at about one-half what the Canadian farmer has to pay. The wheat of the western states, the corn of Illinois, go through Canada to the sea-board for one-half what is charged for carrying Canadian grain. I have no doubt steamship companies fill this up with American cargo at lower rates than they give Canadian goods-that is a practice of all transportation companies whether by sea or land. There is only one cure and that is that Canadian and steamship services should be used altogether for the interest of the Canadian public.


Mr. WILLIAM WRIGHT.: Does the American government subsidize steamships to carry goods from the United States to South Africa?


William Paterson: They have steamships running to South Africa, but whether they subsidize them or not I cannot say.


George William Fowler: Is it the intention of the minister to bring down the contract?


William Paterson: It is not the custom to lay these original documents on the table, and perhaps it would not be necessary to copy it all. Perhaps the hon. gentleman could inclictate what portion he would like to see


George William Fowler: Just that section.


William Findlay Maclean: Is provision made for increase in the number of ships, if the trade grows as it seems to be growing ?


William Paterson: Not in this country. But that would naturally go on if it pays.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister write tq the Elder-Dempster Company for information with reference to the return cargoes ?


William Paterson: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Has the minister any report previous to the last six months?


William Paterson: The information with reference to the cargoes is in the department but it would need to be tabulated with reference to each steamship.


George Eulas Foster: Another year we must have all that for each steamer.


Mr. TAYLOR.: To see what these boats have down for their money.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It would be simpler if we had a law obliging the companies receiving subsidies to make a sworn return. In the United States, wherever there is a grant, a sworn return must be made.


William Paterson: Theirs are mail subsidies.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Yes,. they have mail subsidies, but no subsidies for the encouragement of trade.


Mr. U. WILSON.: When will the minister lay the contract on the table?


William Paterson: I understand the hon. gentleman wants only a copy of one part, that dealing with freight and discrimination.


George Eulas Foster: The minister had better bring down the contract and lay it on the table. None of us will run away with it.


William Paterson: It is not usual to bring down the original of these documents.


George Eulas Foster: There are probably three or four copies in the department.


William Paterson: Not of this I believe.


William Findlay Maclean: There is another obvious point, and that is that we should have a proper consular trade service in connection with these subventions. Not only should we have reports from steamship companies, but we should have reports from the men who represent the Dominion of Canada in promoting and extending trade. If we are to become an exporting country we should not have such haphazard business as we have had this afternoon, but a report of the steamship companies, a report of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and a report of our consular agent.


William Paterson: We have that.-


William Findlay Maclean: But these reports should be brought forward and presented to the country in easily and intelligible form. If Canada's trade is to be extended we must organize our system as they have done in the United States. We must have fresh intelligence and bulletins, so that our people may know where opportunities for trade present themselves. I do trust that what has been said by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) and others will be respected and that next year when these votes come up, there will be an intelligent presentation of this effort made by the Department of Trade and Commerce to extend Canadian trade.


George Eulas Foster: 


William Paterson: I would point out to the hon. gentleman (Mr. W. F. Maclean) that, so far as the Department of Trade and Commerce is concerned, they already issue a large and voluminous report giving the information that the hon. gentleman asks for. If the hon. gentleman will study that, he will find what he wants to know.


William Findlay Maclean: No ; the hon. gentleman is paid for presenting these things intelligently to the committee.


William Paterson: They cannot be presented more intelligently than by giving the written report of these commercial agents. They cannot be presented in any better shape.


William Findlay Maclean: We have only one.


William Paterson: If the hon. gentleman will take up the Trade and Commerce reports, and the bulletins that are issued respecting the commercial agencies, he will find the information he is asking for.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: But we would not get it all. Take the item of $146,000 for steamship service to South Africa ; it would not give us the return cargoes or any of the details which we ought to have.


William Findlay Maclean: The minister should come to parliament and present a statement, giving the total grant, in what direction trade is improving, or otherwise, what our agents abroad have to report, and so on. He could present it in a brief form that would go to the public and be of public use. I shall look for better things next year.


William Paterson: Do I understand from the hon. gentleman that he considers this valuable report not worth studying, and that he cannot find what he is seeking ?


William Findlay Maclean: The Minister of Finance, in his budget speech of an hour, gives the country an intelligent view of its financial affairs, and that is something that ought to be done by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in bringing down his estimates.


William Paterson: I could not undertake to give a list of all the different cargoes that came from South Africa here and that went there from Canada-of course, I can give you the round numbers, but I cannot be expected to give more. We ought to be able to give you the amount of the return cargoes in bulk, and perhaps in a general way what they consist of. But to go into all the details on the estimates could not be expected, especially when you have reports prepared already giving them. Might I ask the hon. gentleman to read the Trade and Commerce report, and if there is anything that he does not find in it and that he wants to know, I will try and supply the lack.


Mr. BARKER.: Will the hon. gentleman refer ns to the page of that valuable work where we will find about the return cargoes?


William Paterson: In the return of the commercial agencies. The conditions of trade between the two countries are such that we may hope to benefit more by this reciprocal arrangement and by these steamship subsidies than our fellow-colonists will. They are not in a position to send ns as much as we are able to send them, but they are going to be a profitable market for us. We are doing what we can to encourage trade.
Administration of the Chinese Immigration Act, including remuneration to Trade and Commerce and Customs officers, $4,000.


William Paterson: It is the same vote as last year. The effect of the Chinese capitation tax is that there was collected during the calendar year of 1904 $3,200. This includes an amount of $1,700, being a $100 tax collected on seventeen Chinamen who had entered previous to January 1st, 1904. But the tax was not collected at all after that date. The remaining $1,500 is made up of a tax of $500 paid by the Canadian Pacific Railway on each of three Chinamen who had deserted. That is, as I understand, seventeen Chinamen had entered under the previous rate. No Chinese have paid the $500 tax under the new Act.


William Findlay Maclean: Have none come in ?


William Paterson: There were these three deserters. But outside of them, no Chinamen landed except fifty-six exempted ones. Under the law merchants, professional men, students and men of science are exempted.


George Eulas Foster: How is that $4,000 you are asking for to be spent ?


William Paterson: In paying the salaries of the collectors of customs, inspectors and interpreters.


George Eulas Foster: How much was spent last year ?


William Paterson: Salaries, $3,953.31 ; contingencies, $239.95.


Uriah Wilson: How many officials are there ?


William Paterson: The number of officers is not here. The deputy says there are six.


George William Fowler: Are these special officers ?	.


William Paterson: No, they are officers of customs. Though the Chinese portion of the administration is directed by the Department of Trade and Commerce, they make use of the Canadian customs. We do not pay the inspectors.


Herbert Brown Ames: May I ask the hon. minister if these officers are preventive officers for
the purpose of seeing that the law of exclusion is rigidly enforced ?


William Paterson: Yes, though they are customs officers they act under the Department of Trade and Commerce in reference to the Chinese.


Herbert Brown Ames: I understand that the flow of Chinese into this country has absolutely ceased.


William Paterson: It looks like it.


Herbert Brown Ames: Not a single one came in last year since the tax of $500 was imposed ?


William Paterson: No.


Herbert Brown Ames: Then is it necessary to pay $400 for these officers when Chinese immigration has absolutely ceased ?


William Paterson: The influx might be renewed.


William Findlay Maclean: Do the hon. minister and the government ask us to accept the idea that the Chinese are being excluded ? I can only speak from what 1 observe in Toronto and 1 think I can say without fear of contradiction that the Chinese portion of that city has increased by 1,000 or 2,000 within the last year or so, and that we have probably 5,000 of them there. I do not know what the Chinese population is in Montreal but they are coming into eastern Canada at a surprising rate. They are enterprising people to a large extent. They are going into business more and more in Toronto with the result that in some streets every third or fourth shop is a Chinese store. They all say that they come from British Columbia and that they have been in the country for some time, but I think these officers who have charge of this department are not keeping their eyes open. They cannot come from the United States because they have to pay more to get into that country, but the number of Chinamen who are coming into the eastern portion of Canada is something surprising, and it will be interesting if anybody cares to investigate to try and find out where they are coming from.


William Paterson: They are coming from P.ritish Columbia. Having come in once they are at liberty to come east.


William Findlay Maclean: I know that.


William Paterson: I understand my hon. friend to say that they are going into business. They must know the English language to do that and therefore they must have been in the country for some time.


William Findlay Maclean: Some of them know very little of it.


George Eulas Foster: How many came in last year ?


William Paterson: None.


S83 COMMONS
George Eulas Foster: 4,719.


William Paterson: Chinese ?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


William Paterson: Came in ?


George Eulas Foster: Certainly. I advise the hon. minister to read the Trade and Commerce Report.


William Paterson: I am afraid it does not give that.


George Eulas Foster: Look at page 750. The total collections were $474,420. The revenue that the provinces got is a very large revenue. It amounts to $231,000.


William Paterson: The explanation of that must be that knowing that the tax was to be increased there was an extra rush into the country at that time.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend is a most versatile man.


William Paterson: That is the fact because none have come in since.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. minister gave all these reasons why none came in and now he gives another reason why 4,719 came in.


William Paterson: It was owing to the fact that they knew that there was to be a raise from $100 to $500 and the Chinamen were sharp enough to get in before the tax of $500 came into effect, while those who did not get in are evidently staying away from us.


George Eulas Foster: I ask the hon. gentleman to take a little of the advice he gave to my hon. friend from South York (Mr. Maclean) and just take a square hour and read over his own report.


William Paterson: That is not my report. I have hardly as much spare time as my hon. friend, but he has given me convincing proof of what I have said that all the information he seeks for he can get if he only looks for it. He has set me right in reference to that matter and I have no doubt that if he pursues his investigations further he would be able to answer my hon. friend from South York.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think the British Columbia newspapers will support the statement made by my hon. friend from South York. They charge that Chinese are entering Canada in the eastern portion of Canada. We have also the statement made by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Smith) who quoted the ' Nanaimo Free Press ' to the effect that Chinamen were entering Canada and that some of them were even accompanied by a special officer of the department. The impression seems to be that the Chinamen are coming into Canada in the eastern portion of Canada.


Mr. MACPHERSON.: I can hardly let the statement the hon. member for North Mr. PATERSON.
Toronto (Mr. Foster) has made that 4,719 Chinamen came into the country last year pass without saying a word or two in regard to it. If the Trade and Commerce report shows that for the whole of the year 1904 a certain number of Chinamen came in that statement must apply to the year ending the first of January, 1904.


George Eulas Foster: I can only take the report and I must take it as being authentic. The report tells me that up to the 30th June, 1904, for the year 1904 there were 128 exempted, 4,719 paid fees and there were these collections, refunds and the like of that. There is no doubt about that information. How many have come in since 30th of June, 1904, up to last of the calendar year I do not know.


Robert George Macpherson: I would point out to my hon. friend from North Toronto that since the imposition of the tax there have been no Chinamen coming into this country with the exception of the few who are specially exempted.


George William Fowler: When did the tax become operative ?


Robert George Macpherson: On the first of January.


George William Fowler: 1905 ?


Robert George Macpherson: 1904. The tax has been in vogue for the past year. Chinamen have not been coming in. I would tell my hon. friend from South York (Mr. Maclean} that if Chinamen are coming into eastern Canada we are very pleased to know it, as they must be coming from British Columbia. We had the scourge long enough with us. They are not now coming into British Columbia. We suffered very severely from the great horde of Chinamen coining into the country and the tax has been a splendid thing as far as British Columbia is concerned. You are now getting them and you will find very shortly that you will have the people rising up and demanding that they shall be shut out.


William Findlay Maclean: But the dumping clause cannot apply to Ontario.


Robert George Macpherson: Well I suppose that you have lots of Chinamen in Ontario who do not wear long queues.


Uriah Wilson: I do not see how it is that these books do not agree. The Department of the Interior has charge of immigration. It gives a list of the immigrants that come in, but I do not find any Chinamen in the list while in the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce my hon. friend from North Toronto has found the record of a very large number of Chinamen.
In addition to that I asked the minister some time ago for the number of preventive officers he had employed, and he did not

give us that information. I think before the item is passed he should give the number of preventive officers and try to make some explanation. The reports with reference to immigration ought all to agree. I do not see why the Department of the Interior should get one report and the Department of Trade and Commerce another. I have asked the minister to give the number of officers who are employed to prevent Chinamen coming into this country and he does not see fit to answer.


William Paterson: I am sorry the hon. gentleman understood that I would not answer. I was trying to get the information that would enable me to answer him satisfactorily. I am told that there are six special officers who are under the Department of Trade and Commerce, but all the customs officers have the circulars and know the regulations with reference to Chinese and it is part of their duty to see that no Chinaman shall enter without paying the capitation tax. But they are officers of customs. The deputy tells me that there are six interpreters and officers especially charged with this duty who are under the pay of the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Uriah Wilson: Will the minister tell us the pay that each of these officers receives ?


William Paterson: I have not it here, but if we had the Auditor General's Report we would find it.


Andrew B. Ingram: Supposing that a Chinaman comes from China, lands at Vancouver, and is passing through Canada to Newfoundland accompanied by a special officer. Would he give bonds ?


William Paterson: Oh, yes, he would be under bonds.


Andrew B. Ingram: Supposing that he passed through Newfoundland and in the course of a year or so entered Canada could he not get over the tax in that way.


William Paterson: No.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Mr. Paterson, House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.

Tuesday, February 14, 1905.