1905-02-22

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 71) respecting the Great Northern Railway of Canada.-Mr. M. S. Schell -by Mr. Calvert.


Mr. BERGERON asked :: 1.	Has the government, or any department of the government, received a request for a subsidy for a steamboat, or for a line of steamboats intended to run between St. Francois, Island of Orleans, and Quebec ?
2.	If so, by whom was the said request made, and what is the date thereof ?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to grant such subsidy ?


Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: 1.	Yes.	[DOT]
2.	Request was made under date of October 13 th, 1904.
3.	The government has decided not to grant the subsidy requested.


WATER POWER FROM BEAUHARNOIS CANAL.
Mr. BERGERON asked :: 1.	From the 1st of January, 1901, to the 1st of January, 1905, has there been any correspondence between the Department of Railways and Canals, or any other department, and the mayor of the town of Beauharnois, or any other person representing the town of Beauharnois, regarding the obtaining of a water power at the fifth lock on the Beauharnois canal, or at any other lock on the said canal, for the purpose of procuring motive power for the manufactories and the electric light in the town of Beauharnois ?
2.	If so, what is the nature of such negotiations, and what is the result thereof ?


Hou. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	The nature of the negotiations was for the obtaining of water with a view of establishing manufacturing industries.
3.	No final conclusion yet reached.



REVENUE FROM OSHAWA HARBOUR.

Mr. BLAIN asked :: What amount in revenue has been received from the Oshawa harbour ?


Hon. R. PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: 



COLD STORAGE PLANTS FOR BAIT.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. GANON6 asked :
1.	How many cold storage plants for bait have been erected ?
2.	What are their locations, and what is the respective cost to the government ?
3.	What did each cost the government for maintenance in 1904 ?
4.	What amount of bait was handled in each for 1904 ?
5.	Are there any similar plants now under contract ? If so, where are they to be located, and what amount is to be contributed by the government respectively ?
6.	Is it the intention of the government to have a cold storage plant for bait erected at any point on the Bay of Fundy this year ? If so, at what place'?
Hon. R. PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	Twenty-nine.
2.	-
Location.	Province.	Cost to Government
	'	$ ets.
Frog Pond. 		P.E.I		580 on
Alberton			G7.'? 83
Miminegash				420 23
Souris 				1,000 00
Ballentyne's Cove		N.S			861 04
		952 94
Port Hood Island		M 		656 80
		038 71
Eastern Harbour 	II 	745 51Ingonish	II 	797 16991 41Petit de Grat	II	757 97481 70Port Beckerton	521 42II	1,000 00Port la Tour	690 01Clark's Harbour	ll 	601 44


Lower East Pubnico ....: it 		1,000 00
Sandy Cove.. . 	Ii	713 67Shediac	N.B	605 09North Kustico	P.E.I	617 50N.S	800 00North Sydney.	1,000 00Ketch Harbour	ii ..	700 94Bona venture Kiver	Que	916 02i o o onl'ooo 00


Half Island Cove.   ..@: ,,	908 43
		439 69
		
3.	All the accounts for the bonus on bait frozen for the year 1904 have not yet been received.
4.	Frog Pond, 11,150 pounds; Miminegash,
40.000	pounds ; Alberton, 40,300 pounds ; North Rustico, 40,084 poundsi; Bayfield, 45,500 pounds ; Eastern Harbour, 43,200 pounds ; Ingonish Ferry, 42,200 pounds ; Petit de Grat, 40,000 pounds ; Whitehead,
41.000	pounds ; Port Beckerton, 34,000 48
pounds; Shediac, 43,000 pounds ; Ketch Harbour, 42,000 pounds ; Half Island Cove,
45,000	pounds ; Sambro, 50,900 pounds ; Sandy Cove, 46,000 pounds ; La Have, 21,000 pounds ; Westport, 44,190 pounds ; Clark's Harbour, 22,000 pounds ; Bonaven-ture River, 49,800 pounds ; Caplin, 38,800 pounds.
The reports from the other freezers do not specify the quantity of bait frozen during 1904.
5.	Yes ; one at Anse & le Barbe, GaspS, and another at Lockport, Nova Scotia.
Under the regulations covering the construction of these bait freezers the department pays half the cost of construction and equipment up to a sum of one thousand dollars.
6.	The regulations provide that in any locality where twenty or more fishermen form themselves into an association, with a capital stock of not less than five hundred dollars, the department will give the assistance referred to in answer to question No. 5.



THIRD READING.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 5) respecting the Census aud Statistics.-Mr. Fisher.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
["I have noticed that there was a certain line of economy at certain times in the correspondence of the late chief commissioner with the government. There is not very much of that observable when examinations are being carried on and the expenses piled up. But when it comes to the writing of a letter or a long telegram, he drew the line at that very sharply.\nAt six o'clock, House took recess.\nAfter Recess.\nHouse resumed at eight o'clock."]
Mr.   I@: BORDEN (Carleton, Out.) Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair, I would like to ask the right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) whether or not he has an answer to the question which I put in his absence the day before yesterday in regard to the alleged non-performance by the deputy returning officers in Manitoba of the duties which are distinctly cast upon them under the terms of the Dominion Election Act of 1900. I do not know whether the attention of my right hon. friend has been directed to what I then mentioned or not. I gave a reference to the statute under which the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery is obliged to provide lists for each of the polling sections as well as a reference to another section of the same statute under which the returning officers are bound to return to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery certain documents and papers which have been used in the respective polling subdivisions. I pointed out also that these documents have not been returned to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery, so that they cannot be made available in certain legal proceedings which are now pending in the province of Manitoba, and I would like to know whether or not the government is in possession of any information as to the conduct of these gentlemen who are officers of this House and whose conduct therefore is a legitimate subject of inquiry



In parliament and possibly of action by parliament.


Rt.   H@: I may inform my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) that I received to-day two memoranda from the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery on this subject, but 1 have not yet been able to look at them. I will be able to give him an answer to-morrow.



Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton).: Mr. Speaker, I desire to call the attention of the government to a report that appears in the Halifax Morning Chronicle of the 17th inst., in reference to the schooner Agnes G. Donahue and her crew. This is a vessel that was owned in the city of Halifax and which some time in September last started on a sealing voyage down to the southern sealing grounds. While on her way down there she was captured by the government of Uruguay, one of the republics of South America. My information is that she was seized on November 11 last, and that the crew of nineteen men and the captain are still prisoners on board of the schooner, that they are not allowed to leave the vessel and that although a trial took place in the Supreme Court of that country, nothing whatever has been proven against the schooner. Still, she is in the hands of the government, the nineteen men with the officers are still prisoners oh board the schooner and nobody is allowed to communicate with them. I am not sure whether this matter has been brought to the notice of the government or not, but I am sure that it is a question that shoud receive due consideration and immediate attention. I have been informed that some,steps were being taken by the authorities to make good the damages to the owners of the vessel, but I am also informed that there is nothing in contemplation to be done for the men. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully urge that as provision is being made for the owners of the vessel who have lost the services of the schooner and the profits that they might have made out of the voyage, some consideration also should be shown to the men. The men were only working on shares. They had no fixed wages from the owners of the schooner. They were to receive so much for each skin that was caught. These nineteen men are thrown out of their employment and the loss entailed upon them by the three or four months idleness during which they are kept prisoners, and the time it will take them to return to their homes again is a very serious matter to them.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: What was the alleged cause of the seizure ?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is alleged that they were poaching, but I am informed on Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
what is considered good authority that there is no law or regulation in that country in respect to sealing, and that this vessel was four miles off the shore when she was captured and furthermore that although there was a trial nothing was proved against her. Although this case as an international question may be considered small, still to those who are particularly concerned it is a very big question, and I urge upon the government that if justice is to be done to these parties it should be done quickly. Where the home government has to deal with a matter of this kind progress is usually very slow. I hope that in dealing with this case there will not be a repetition of those slow methods if justice is to be done to those who are immediately concerned. I would respectfully commend this matter to the attention of the government.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Mr. Speaker, the question is a new one to the House I am sure,, but it is not new to the department. We had a complaint, I think, about a month ago about this act on the part of this southern republic, the seat of whose government is at Montevideo. We took the matter in hand at once and we entered into communication with the home government in order to secure the release of the men. After a couple of cables we were informed that the men had been discharged, but that the government at Montevideo intended to keep the captain in jail although there- was no law to keep him in jail, but from the information we gathered they were preparing the law to meet the case. We, therefore, again put ourselves in communication with the home government and presented the facts as we were informed. We have received no reply yet to the last communication we have had with the home government on the question. I understand that the British consul at Montevideo is doing his best under the circumstances. It is one of these extraordinary cases that will happen now and then in these countries. The hon. gentleman may rest assured that we are not at all losing sight of the question and we are anxious for an early settlement so that justice may be done to a Canadian.


Mr. FOSTER.: You are not sending the
Canada down there.
Motion agreed to and House went into Committee of Supply.
Railways and Canals-chargeable to income-arbitrations and awards, $4,000.


Mr. EMMERSON.: This is the usual vote.


Richard Blain: Would the minister explain how that amount was expended last year?


Henry Robert Emmerson: We only expended up to .Tan. 31 $115.20 out of the $4,000. A vote of $4,000 is taken annually ; sometimes the full amount is expended, sometimes it is not.

Surveys and inspections-canals, $3,000.


Mr. PERLEY.: Has tlie superintendent been appointed for the Carillon and Grenville canal, and if so, who?


Henry Robert Emmerson: A gentleman was recommended to me whose name I think was McCoy.


George Halsey Perley: Will the minister tell me what his experience consists of and what his previous business was?


Henry Robert Emmerson: X will not be certain as to that. The name was submitted to the superintending engineer of the canal to inquire as to his qualifications; the chief engineer tells me that Mr. Marceau is quite satisfied with the qualifications and with the information which is secured with respect to the nominee or candidate for the position. My instructions were carried out and his appointment has been made.


George Halsey Perley: I would like to ask the hon. minister whether he expects a man in this position to be really the superintendent of the canal, or whether he is appointed nominally for the sake of the salary ; because I am given to understand that this man has been hitherto a marble cutter and manufacturer of tombstones ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The superintending engineer is the man with the technical skill, while the superintendent or overseer is required to be simply a business man, with the ordinary tact and judgment that would be required for the carrying on of any business.
to do to fit him for a position of that kind and to entitle him to his salary.


Henry Robert Emmerson: On all these canals the work of construction is under the charge of the superintending engineer. The superintendent as such has nothing whatever to do with that. There are no men in training for positions as superintendents of canals. There are men employed as labourers, for the opening and closing of gates and the turning of bridges, but there are no men who are in a lower position and who climb up step by step to a higher. I have no doubt that occasionally there might be a man who commenced on the canal as a labourer and who would eventually reach a much higher position ; but these are very few and far between, and the only thing that is left for the department to do is to select men with good business qualifications, with tact and judgment and some executive ability, because they have to carry on transactions on the canal in a business way with the public.


George Eulas Foster: Such, for instance, as


Henry Robert Emmerson: Very largely in connection with differences arising between different (transportation companies as to which shall have precedence, and so on ; he has to do with directing the men, where material is to be taken, and he must see that the boats do not go through at a higher speed than is required by the regulations.


George Eulas Foster: And all that would be excellently well understood by a tombstone maker.


George Halsey Perley: I thank the minister. I simply wanted to get that information, because on that basis the man is a good man.


George Eulas Foster: What is the salary attached to the position ?


Half Island Cove.   ..@: 


George Eulas Foster: What are the duties such a man has to perform ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: He has the employment and direction of the men, the looking after the repairs, the direction of the traffic passing through the canal as respects the opening of gates and the order in which vessels shall be taken through, and generally the oversight of the canal.


George Eulas Foster: Does the minister lay down the principle in employing men to be overseers of canals that it makes no difference at all whether they have had any previous experience in canal work-I mean the technical business details connected with the management of a canal ? Certainly there would not be much that a man would gain in a tombstone business to fit him for that particular kind of work. Surely there ought to be some special qualification in the line of the work which he has


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, and a poet might do it.


George Eulas Foster: A thousand dollar man to take charge of a canal under the superintending engineer, it seems to me, ought to be a man who would have some knowledge of transportation ; at least, he should not be afraid of the water. He ought to know something about building, particularly that kind which goes on about a canal. The superintending engineer cannot be always on the works. He would lay out the works, as I understand, and the superintendent would see that they are completed according to his directions. It does not seem to me that a tombstone maker has any particular qualifications to entitle him to be chosen by a superintending engineer for this work. The minister says that there are no persons going up step by step. No, and there never will be any chance for them, so long as he goes outside to search for tombstone makers to make them superintendents of canals. Even though a man is a business man in a tombstone way, it does not follow that he would be a very capable man for this kind of work. He would always be looking forward to the future ; the present would have no interest
48J

for him. I would suppose that the experience acquired by a man engaged in tombstone work during the course of a long and mournful life would not be such as to qualify him for this class of work.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend will perhaps admit that a marble worker and even a carver of tombstones might be a good business man. A few years ago, when my hon. friend had some responsibility for the management of the canals, the superintendent of the Cornwall canal was a blacksmith, and I have not heard that that prevented his being a successful superintendent. In the Williamsburg canal the late government had a doctor as superintendent I do not know what particular qualification a doctor might have for the work except that he might be a good bone setter and set a broken leg in case of accident. After all it simply resolves itself down to this, that the man who makes a successful superintendent must have a good business head and good executive ability.
Mr. PEItLEY. I have listened attentively to what the hon. minister has said. But in the county I have the honour to represent,
I find that the position is supposed to be a political appointment and that the appointee must be politically qualified, whatever qualification he may have in other respects. 1 hope the hon. minister does not make all his appointments on that basis. As regards the man in question, whose name is McCoy, he is a very respectable citizen and a very decent fellow. If the appointment is to be a political one, I have no objection to this particular nomination, but I do not think it is good for the service to have the impression generally created that when a position of that sort becomes vacant on a canal, it can only be filled by some one who has political pull.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Before making this appointment, I had the qualifications of the applicant inquired into, and the superintending engineer, Mr. Marceau, reported that he was well qualified. I carried out Mr. Marceau's recommendation. The appointment was not strictly political. Mr. McCoy was appointed on the recommendation of the superintending engineer, who said he was well qualified, but in addition he was a friend of the administration, and of course, other things being equal. I would give our friends the preference. That is a necessary incident of party government, and the case in question is one to which exception would not be taken by any hon. member opposite. They have had their day and may have it again in the distant future. We have followed what has been the course since confederation and what I fancy will be the course so long as party government prevails in Canada and human nature is what it is.


Mr. COCHRANE.: What salary has this 1 gentleman and does he live near the canal ? Mr. FOSTER.


Henry Robert Emmerson: A salary of $1,000 providing he attends to the duties of his position and regardless of where he lives.


Edward Cochrane: Does he get any pay for going to his work ? We have a superintendent on the Murray canal who gets $1,000 but who will not condescend to live near the canal. He lives in Brighton and is paid for 255 trips down to the canal at the rate of $1.50 a trip.


Henry Robert Emmerson: He is not superintendent.


Edward Cochrane: He has charge of the canal and is called a superintendent with us. He gets $0 a month for his house and $6 a month for his office, but he has no other office than that which is in the government building. When he takes a trip down to Trenton he gets $3 a trip, and when he goes visiting his own home he charges the country $2 a trip. The hon, minister may laugh, but it is easy for him to laugh as he is not the one who pays.


Henry Robert Emmerson: You should rebuke your own friends for laughing.


Edward Cochrane: The high school teacher in Brighton gets $1,000 a year and provides his own house. It is ridiculous to give this official $1,000 and then pay him for every day he goes down to his work. Every time the superintendent of the Murray canal goes from Brighton down to the canal he gets $1.50 a trip and the trips amounted to 255. He also gets $0 a month for his house allowance and $6 for the office, though he has no office except that built by the government. He gets paid for trips going down to Trenton, which is only a short distance from the eastern end of the canal, $3 a trip, and when he goes to the country to visit his friends he gets $2 a trip.


Mr. BICKERDIKE.: This gentleman does not go to Brighton.


Edward Cochrane: You are chuck full of information. Does this gentleman get paid for going to his work on the canal in addition to his salary and does he get any allowance for house and rent ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The superintendent of this canal lives right on the spot. With respect to the Murray canal, my hou. friend knows, because he was familiar with the canals in that section in bygone days, that the gentleman now occupying the position of superintendent is paid just in the same way as was his predecessor. His predecessor under the former government was paid a salary and given so much allowance for driving to ihe canal. It appears that has been continued. I am glad my hon. friend has brought the matter to my notice. I shall inquire into it. But I am advised that it has been the course of the department since long before the present government came into power. I will get the exact facts

as to the expenses charged, and learn whether these expenses are properly chargeable to the canal.


Edward Cochrane: Here is another case of ' You did the same.' We have heard that until it has become stale ; and, to my mind, even when it was fresh -it was no justification for extravagance on the part of this government. When in opposition they charged the government of that time with extravagance and promised to do better. And now the minister tries to defend what he must know to be dishonest so far as this superintendent is concerned by saying that the same was done in previous years. The former superintendent was dismissed, and the cause of his dismissal was that he made these charges. Yet, to-day, the salary paid to the present officer is justified on the ground that it was paid to the previous occupant of the office. That is no justification. The only way to justify it is to show that the man is entitled to it. The minister says he will inquire into the matter. We have the Auditor General's Report for the facts, and if that is not enough, I do not know to whom the minister will apply. I never was more disgusted in my life than when I travelled over that canal during the last election, and found that the office occupied by this official was built at the I public expense, and yet he was getting $6 a month for office rent. The minister says that the position of superintendent of the canal does not call for special qualifications, but that a marble cutter can fill the office.
I do not know what officer can require special qualifications if this one does not. Does the minister mean to tell me that the engineer in charge of the canal is there all the time to see to it that the public money is not wasted ? If, when the frost comes out of the ground in the spring a part of the embankment slides down into the canal, is it not clear that a man of brain power and business capacity is needed to handle the men to make the repairs ? If men have been put into such positions simply because they are good party men, and regardless of their qualifications for the duties expected of them, it is time to call a halt. Here is a man receiving $1,000 a year, when the high school teachers in the same section receive no more, and then he gets an allowance for an office rent when the government itself has provided the office.


Hr. LEWIS.: Is it not possible and advisable to fill these positions in connection with the canals and lighthouses from the ranks of men who are acquainted with navigation matters. We have now a considerable commercial navy, and the men engaged in it have not many positions ashore open to them. Would it not be wise for the minister to fill such places as this with men. even his own party friends who are familiar with vessel transportation and the use of the canals ? I would strongly urge this course.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I presume you will find many men of that class with the necessary ability. My hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster) asked a question last night with regard to the timber for the guide-piers on the Carillon and Grenville canal. Of course, that was for last year, and is not involved in this vote, but I desire to explain the matter. This timber was supplied under a contract which was entered into after tenders had been called for by newspaper advertisement. The contract was based on schedule rates. The lowest tender, that of Martineau. Son & Le-moine, was accepted. In the Auditor General's Report I find that the total cost was $19,788.55-that being the result of the final adjustment between the chief engineer and the contractor. The price of the spruce and hemlock was $30 per thousand as stated last night, pine timber being $35 and tamarack plank also $35. We have here also the concrete, the stone filling and all the ether items entering into the construction of this guide-pier. The best criterion by which to judge whether the prices were reasonable or not is found in the fact that there was open competition and that six tenders were received.


George Halsey Perley: The explanation of the minister is satisfactory, so far as it goes. But he must have had a very unfortunate experience with the people who tendered, because, while $35 per thousand for pine, is fair enough, yet $30 for spruce and hemlock in that locality where the timber is grown and made is out of all reason. I ha vc never known such prices to be paid, and I have bought and sold a great deal of these woods.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have already stated that this was a competitive price, but I should also call the attention of the committee to the fact that this price is for the timber in the work, with all the labour upon it employed in putting it there. If the hon. gentleman will consult the Auditor General's Report, he will find that there is nothing there for labour, except an item for taking down certain work as ordered,- a special matter. But all these item's are computed at a certain price, with the labour included, that is to say, the timber used is measured after it has become a part and parcel of the whole and completed work. I think that is an element which would affect the judgment of my hon. friend from Ar-genteuil (Mr. Perley).


Richard Blain: Is that the customary way in his department of measuring timber ? If it is not, why was there an exception in this case ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The engineer says that is the customary way in making up the final estimates of the department where it is by schedule rate ; because concrete must mean concrete completed and placed

in the work where it' is required, and where the specifications design it should be ; and timber must mean the timber as a part of the completed work placed in the position where the requirements of the specifications designed.


Richard Blain: Am 1 to understand that in every case the contractor who does this work supplies the timber ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That depends upon the call for tenders, that is always specified. In some instances the department would furnish the material, and then it would be a tender for doing the work and putting it in place. It depends upon how the call for tenders goes forward. If you are simply asking for tenders for timber, then of course it would mean the measurements before it became a part of any work. But where you are asking for tenders for the construction of a guide pier, then the schedule prices would mean timber or concrete as part of the completed work.


Mr. LALOR.: What is the length of this timber ? That makes a considerable difference.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The timber was from 20 to 25 feet in length.


George Eulas Foster: What was the nature of the work ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Cribwork and concrete.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: $30 would be a pretty steep price for hemlock timber. I have taken contracts where I got it at a much better price than that.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend must bear in mind this fact, that we invited tenders, and there were six tenders, of which we chose the lowest. The whole public of Canada had an opportunity to tender, what more could be done ? No exception can be taken to the action of the department. Of course it may be said, oh, this could be done for less. The opportunity was open to the hon. gentleman himself to tender.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Did you advertise for these tenders ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I stated time and again that we advertised in the newspapers of Ottawa and Montreal, and at points between.


Mr. MONK.: The grievance to which I wish to call my hon. friend's attention is one which we suffer from at Cote St. Paul. I endeavoured to obtain a redress of that grievance by writing to the employees of the department on the canal at Cote St. Paul. Last year I had some communication [DOT]with the minister ; but I think it is absolutely necessary to bring the matter before the House, and I would ask my hon. friend to give a strict order that the proper rem-Mr. EMMERSON.
edies be applied to that grievance. As the hon. gentleman is probably aware, on the Lachine canal at Cote St. Paul, there are a certain number of manufacturers who use the water-power from the canal. They depend upon that water-power to a very large extent in carrying on their manufacturing business. The complaint which I urged last year on their behalf and brought to the notice of my hon. friend, was that the water levels during the winter months are not properly kept up on all parts of the canal. There is a part of the canal below Cote St. Paul which, according to the complaints that have been made to me, is kept abundantly supplied with water, or at any rate receives a larger portion of water than the part at Cote St. Paul itself. This grievance only appears in the winter, because in the winter the supply of water in the canal for the purpose of manufacturing is not as regular as in the summer, because as is contended, the levels vary in the lake, and perhaps on account of the ice also. I will read to the House a letter I have received in connection with this matter, and then I will send to my hon. friend at his department a tabulated statement of the variations of the levels, which would be too long to read here. I really believe, after the efforts I have made to secure from the employees of the canal proper attention to this-matter, that it has been neglected, and that by bringing it to the notice of the department a word from the minister will probably suffice to procure the necessary degree of vigilance. These manufacturers suffer a great deal of annoyance, and some loss, which could be avoided if proper care were taken. This is the letter I have received from one of the manufacturers :
Dear Sir,-Attached is a copy of a letter written yesterday to Mr. O'Brien

Mr. O'Brien is one of the chief employees on the canal.
__-which is largely self-explanatory. We are
also returning his letter of the 11th instant, as sent you, having carefully noted his contentions.
If our trouble was caused entirely by low water in Lake St. Louis, as he contends, our demands would be unreasonable to say the least We have asked nothing unreasonable, however. What we have all along held is that the level below is kept up regardless of any and all conditions, while our supply level is continually fluctuating. The figures we give him in the letter attached show our position. On Monday the level below was 14 feet 4 inches, the level above was so low as to be entirely useless. No doubt some shortage at Lachine is a frequent occurrence at this season of the year, but we only ask a fair division of such shortage. Surely there is nothing unfair or unreasonable in our asking that the other users of the water bear their proportionate burden of existing conditions rather than have it all fall upon us as at present.
You will also observe the fact of the fluctuation in our supply level. One day it is up, the next it is down. Some days it is up in the-

morning and down again in the afternoon. Now if the whole cause was a shortage at Lachine, would there he this rapid fluctuation ? Would there not be a low level of more permanency than this ? We think so. The difficulty is simply that the man at St. Paul locks is instructed to keep the level below at some 14 feet 4 inches, and he does it regardless of whether we have an inch of head left or not.
Last year the trouble started in December, 1903, but this year we did not feel it until January. It always lasts until the canal is emptied, so that our period of difficulty is somewhat lengthier than the two months which Mr. O'Brien speaks of, being more like four months.
Now instead of complaining of this, which I think amounts to neglect and carelessness, at the beginning of the session when this trouble recurred, I wrote to the employees of the canal. I wrote particularly to Mr. O'Brien in regard to this. I do not think Mr. O'Brien is at fault, but X think there are some men in charge of the regulation of the levels who require to be informed by the department that they must more carefully attend to their duties. If the hon. minister will be kind enough to give such an order, I think that fact, with the fact that the matter has been discussed publicly, will bring some relief to these manufacturers who are certainly entitled to it. There is just one other point to which I wish to call the hon. minister's attention while I am on my feet. As the hon. gentleman is aware there is going to be. a bridge built at Atwater avenue this spring. I have no doubt that the bridge is at present ready, that all the structural pieces have been completed, and I have no doubt whatever that if the pieces were brought upon the ground, all the work along the canal done and everything ready it would not be necessary to take the water out of the canal for more than three weeks. That is not the opinion of an expert which I express, but it is an opinion which I have arrived at from what I have been told by builders and contractors. There is a question this spring of drawing off the water from the Rachine canal for six weeks and the opinion of the superintendent of the canal in Montreal is that it will l>e necessary to remove the water from the canal from March 15 until May 1, even though day and night work is resorted to.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That 'is always required.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not think so.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that is part of the contract.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: No, I do not think there can be any such stipulation in the contract. I do not know what this contract is. but I do know that there is no clause in the contract which provides that the water shall be drawn off from the 15th March to the 1st of May ; in fact I am morally sure there is no such clause.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is a clause requiring them to work day and night.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: No doubt, and no doubt there is a stipulation on behalf of the contractor that the water shall be drawn off for a sufficient time to allow him to perform his contract. I believe that if the contractor is told that he will be kept strictly to his contract it is possible to put that bridge across the canal in less time than six weeks. I am sure it is possible and I would invite my hon. friend to endeavour to secure from the contractor an undertaking that the day the water is drawn off he will be ready to go to work, put on day and night shifts of workmen and endeavour to complete that work in a shorter time than six weeks. As my hon. friend can readily imagine it is a severe privation for the manufacturers who use the waters of the canal to be deprived of water during such a long period as six weeks. They are obliged to have recourse to electricity or steam power, and it is a serious interruption to their work and it is a serious loss not only for themselves but for the men whom they employ. I think if my hon. friend will give instructions to the superintendent of the canal at Montreal to endeavour to secure the performance of this work in a shorter time than six weeks lie will undoubtedly succeed and will deserve the gratitude of the people interested.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I would inform my hon. friend that the department has already taken the steps to which he makes reference. If we only had the Atwater avenue bridge to build we might complete that within a certain time, but there are other works which necessitate the removal of the water from the canal. There is a retaining wall that has to be rebuilt and there is some stone lining that is absolutely necessary and the canal will have to be dewatered to provide for these. As respects the complaint of those who utilize the water power on that canal if it is due to the negligence or inattention of any of the officials of the canal I shall certainly see that it is remedied. If by any precautionary measures, the officials can prevent the difficulty complained of, it is certainly the duty of the department to have it done. There is, however, a question whether the cause is due particularly to any want of care on the part of the officials. The question of ice is one that has arisen in connection with the Cornwall water-powers, and the department has contended that the remedy should be applied by those who use the water-powers. Those who use the water think that the expense should be borne by the department. Of course, many of these water-powers, as my hon. friend knows, are leased for practically a nominal sum. Years ago the rental was fixed at a very low rate and it has continued necessarily because the leases were for long

periods. The department does not operate the canals simply to develop water-power, That is only an incident. The department is not, I think, justified in expending large sums or any sum with the view of developing water-power. I think it very properly leases these water-powers where they do not interfere with navigation, but I doubt whether tfie department is justified in making expenditures or going to any expense to provide water-powers. That should be borne by those wishing to develop and utilize these water-powers.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not think the ice has anything to do with the shortage of water. It is possible-I do not know very much about the matter myself-but I do not think so because it has never been mentioned by any of the parties interested. In regard to what my hon. friend says about the government not being bound to furnish waterpower or to make any expenditure in that connection, and in regard to what my hon. friend has said as to the advisability of manufacturers securing power elsewhere if they are not satisfied


Henry Robert Emmerson: I did not make that statement.
'Mr. MONK. Well, my hon. friend said that it was an incident of the canal that water-power is furnished and that if it caused inconvenience to these gentlemen they might secure their power elsewhere. That is what I understood the hon. gentleman's statement to be.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, I do not think I made that statement nor did I make any insinuation of that kind. I said it was only an incident and that the department was not justified in making expenditures with a view to developing water-power.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That is the point I am coming to. The department is justified in seeing that its servants do-their work properly. We have men there who are paid to look after the levels. The work which they have to do is to see that the proper level is kept up in the canal. If these water-powers did not exist on the line of the canal it would not be necessary to keep the staff which we have there, but being paid to do that work all we ask is that they shall do it properly. As I stated to my hon. frieDd a moment ago I would not have brought the matter up here ; I fancied that I could secure vigilance in the performance of their
duty from these men, whoever they are____
I do not know them-by correspondence with themselves, but my efforts have proved fruitless. I do not blame the government for this state of affairs. If there is anybody to blame it is these men who are not under the continual superintendence of the minister, but I know perfectly well that if the minister give them a warning that this matter is being closely watched and that


Henry Robert Emmerson: being paid to do this work of watching these levels they must see that the water which is there, whatever may be its quantity, is supplied evenly to those who use it, I know that will be more effectual than anything I can do.
Now, in regard to the bridge. Of course, if my hon. friend is right in saying that a contractor cannot be expected to do this work in less than six weeks, there is an end to the matter. But I am not aware that there are other bridges to be put on the canal, nor am I aware that this particular contractor, whose name I forget for the moment, has any other work to do on the Lachine canal than the erection of this bridge. If that is the case, and if my information is well founded that the bridge itself can be set in position in half the time, in three weeks or even in four weeks, why should the manufacturers who happen to be there be deprived of the use of this water which is so essential to them for the carrying on of their industry? If my hon. friend will ask the superintendent in Montreal to give his special attention to this question of time he will find that within the period of four weeks he could have the bridge erected and the work which my hon. friend mentioned, which is to be done on other parts of the canal, not so considerable as the erection of the bridge, all complete with a very great saving of time.
Surveys and inspection-railways, $18,000.


Richard Blain: The minister passed an item the other evening of $20,000 for a special survey of the Welland canal. I wrould ask the minister how much money was expended last year for surveys of all the different canals of Canada?


Henry Robert Emmerson: This is for surveys and inspection of railways. Every railway to which is granted a charter and a subsidy given has to be inspected and for this purpose we have to send out engineers all over the country. The usual vote has been $18,000 per annum. Last year up to the 31st of January, 1905, we expended about $7,650 on the inspection of railways. ,


Richard Blain: That is not the survey and inspection of canals, which is the item under discussion. The railway item comes next.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We have passed that, we are at the $18,000 item. Reverting to that I would say that this is in connection with the inspection by our officers of the canals, especially in relation to the granting ot water-powers. The hydraulic engineer from time to time goes out and visits the several canals when applications come in asking for powers. He makes a report to the department and it is upon those reports that I am able to determine whether these applications shall or shall not be granted. The amount expended from July 1st last to Jan. 31st was a shade over $1,000.


Mr. INGRAM.: Will the minister give the different canals which have been inspected since last year?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hydraulic engineer went to the Welland canal, the Cornwall canal, the canal at Morrisburg, and the Trent canal. We are constantly receiving applications for the granting of water-powers and I find it necessary to spend a sum of money in connection with the reports and surveys of the different canals.


Andrew B. Ingram: Do I understand that all these ware surveyed last year?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Since the 1st of July we have expended $1,036.94 on this work up to Jan. 1.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am not complaining of the amount of money that has been expended in that way; all I want to get is the number of inspections that have been made since last session or during the past year.


Henry Robert Emmerson: 
Henry Robert Emmerson: This is the usual vote in connection with extra work during the session.
Salaries-extra clerks, copyists and messengers, &e., $4,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: This has been increased on account of the employment of two additional assistants.


Richard Blain: May I ask who they are and why they are exempted from the provisions of the Civil Service Act?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Miss Helmer and Miss Mahon. It was found necessary to have them.
Salaries of engineers, draughtsmen, extra clerks and messengers, &c., $31,500.


Mr.   POSTER@: Why is the increase asked for?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I can give it in detail.


George Eulas Foster: You have $1,000 more.


Henry Robert Emmerson: In the first place the inspecting engineer received an increase of $200, that is Mr. E. B. Johnston. He was receiving $2,400 which has been increased to $2,600. Mr. Alward, assistant law clerk, has been increased from $1,200 to' $1,400. These two items account for an increase of $400. Miss Graham received an increase of $50, from $650 to $700, and 12 received increases of $50 each. There was an extra clerk, translator, put on, M. J. Lyons, $500. That accounts for the $1,500 increase.
Costs of litigation in connection with Railways and Canals, $6,000.


Mr.   POSTER@: What was spent on that last year ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: From the 1st of July to the 1st of January, $2,639.78. The amounts paid were: E. H. McAlpine, in connection with the Canada Eastern Railway, for services in connection with the searching of the title, $1,162.54 ; S. A. Mac-kay, in connection with the Culbute canal claims. $1,000 ; Arthur Lisle, in connection with the Calumet claims, $1,000 ; Deland & Brassard, in connection with the claims for the Chambly flooding, $218 ; and mis cellaneous items, $59.24.


Mr. HAGGART.: I thought the Culbute claims were all settled long ago ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: These are flooding claims that were continued up to early last spring, while the canal was really in commission, though not in use. About the only use that was made of it was made by the lumbermen. I had the question of the legal status of the department and the responsibility of the government in connection with that canal inquired into, and I was advised by the Department of Justice that it would be necessary to abolish it legally by a proclamation in the ' Canada Gazette,' in order to put it out of commission. This was done; but it does not seem to have annihilated the claims for damages. This year, quite recently, the usual claims have been coming in. But it is not a canal, and it is not maintained by the government as one.


John Graham Haggart: If I remember rightly, the dam which caused these damages was removed altogether by the government. First of all, the damages done by the dam were assessed, and I think they were paid by the government two or three times over. Then the government removed the dam altogether, so that no damages could accrue from the government work.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is a question whether the government in starting to remove the dam did not recognize the liability. But, apart from that, the government did not remove the dam. They started to do it, but the transportation people and the lumbermen entered a protest against its removal, claiming that it was a vested right, that it had been in use by them, and that its removal would cause very serious disaster to the navigation of the Ottawa waters in the way of bringing down lumber.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. McAlpine seems to be fortunate in having pretty constant employment by one or other of the ministers.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Let me explain to my hon. friend that Mr. McAlpine has been the agent of the Minister of Justice at St. John for the province of New Brunswick or a portion of the province, and that when the legal matters go from the several departments to the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice employs its agent

at the particular point where the work is to be done.


George Eulas Foster: What I wanted to call the attention of the House to was this, that Mr. McAlpine seems to be badly treated by the Justice Department, or else that he places a large estimate on his legal services. For instance, I find that last year he rendered a bill for $900 for services in connection with the purchase of the Canada Eastern Railway, and that when that came before the Justice Department, which has never been accused of illiberality, I think, but which pays its agents generously-


Henry Robert Emmerson: They tax all the bills.


George Eulas Foster: From the bill of $900 the sum of $540 was taxed off, bringing it to the more respectable dimensions of $360. I can imagine what a sad disappointment there was ; but, all the same, it would seem as if, in the cases in which this taxing arrangement is not carried out, the department would be paying almost too much for the services of Mr. McAlpine. He seems to have a high estimate of the value of his services as compared with the Justice Department.


John Graham Haggart: Why was any amount paid to Mr. McAlpine at all in connection with the purchase of the Canada Eastern Railway ? I thought the rule was that the expenses of verifying the titles are paid by the seller.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That cannot be the rule either in this or any other country. Suppose that we had purchased the Canada Eastern without having the title thoroughly inquired into, suppose that the department depended upon the word of the vendor, and afterwards it turned out that this whole railway was encumbered, do yon think the department would not be held responsible for not having had its own legal adviser go through the title.


John Graham Haggart: There is no difference with us on that point, but I say that the seller furnishes an abstract of the title and the purchaser sees if that abstract is correct, but as a general rule the seller pays for the search.


Mr.   BEAIN@: On the question of damages to pay for property flooded, the minister says that that account is closed, but that notwithstanding claims are coming in from time to time. Does his department intend to pay these claims in the future ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No.


Richard Blain: Nothing more will be paid ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Not a cent.


Mr TAYLOR.: Is any portion of this $6,000 to pay for expenses in connection with litigation concerning the extension of the Rideau canal and is he proceeding with that extension ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: 


Henry Robert Emmerson: I explained, when my hon. friend was absent, that we had run against quite a barrier in this matter. A question arose regarding interference with a mill property, and the owners, Messrs. Tett Bros., asked what seems to me a very exorbitant sum, and certainly until I can be satisfied that the property can be secured at a reasonable price, I would not be inclined to move further in the matter.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Last night the hon. minister promised to give details of the agreement between the Dominion and the provincial authorities of Ontario regarding the taking over of the waterways north of Balsam Lake.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I said I would explain the position in which the matter was. The negotiations are not quite complete. The officers of my department met the officers of the Crown Lands Department of Ontario at Toronto and arranged on a certain basis on which we would take over these works which had been constructed by the province and free the province from any future expenditure on their maintenance. The waterworks we would have charge of. and we would have a dam built. That has been made the subject matter of a report to Council, which is submitted to the provincial government at Toronto, and we hope to have the matter carried out because the negotiations were practically concluded but were not put in the shape of an Order in Council on behalf of either government.


Samuel Hughes: What need is there for this work if you are not going to complete the two ends of the canal ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Why does my hon. friend assume that we are not going to complete the two ends of the canal ?


Samuel Hughes: I see nothing in the main estimates. However, we live in hope, and I hope there will be an amount of two million or three million dollars in the supplementaries.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We could not spend that much this year.


Samuel Hughes: But you could let contracts for the whole work as used to be done formerly and the work would be done much more expeditiously if that plan were followed.
'Mr, EMMERSON. Why did you not come to that delegation this morning ?


Samuel Hughes: I had every faith that the Postmaster General, would bring that canal up to Aurora.
Maintenance and operation of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, $60,000.


Mr. KEMP.: Is that the whole cost for the year ?	.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, there is $30,000 provided by statute in addition to this.


Albert Edward Kemp: Are the appointments of the Railway Commission subject to the approval of any department of the government ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, they are subject to the approval of the Governor in Council, being brought to the notice of the Council by the Minister of Railways under recommendation or report.


Albert Edward Kemp: Then the appointments have to go to the Department of Railways and Canals?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is simply the avenue by which the Board of Railway Commissioners reach the Governor in Council.


Albert Edward Kemp: The Department of Railways and Canals, I presume are notified from time to time as to the rulings and decisions of the Commission?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, that has not been so far the case. The rulings are not sent through the department. As to their expenditures, they simply send in their recommendations for accounts, and payments of accounts and auditing are the work of the Department of Railways and Canals.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is the Minister of Railways and Canals, or is any other minister, prepared to make an explanation of the revision of freight and passenger tolls which the Commission authorized, as published in the 'Canada Gazette' in December last? The maximum passenger rates in that schedule are higher tliau those that have been in effect heretofore as authorized by the Railway Commission of the Privy Council. And, the same is true of the freight rates. There has been a good deal of discussion of this subject in the press, and it would be interesting if the minister could give us the reasons for these advances. There has been an agitation in the country for lower freight rates upon certain roads and in certain sections, and I have not found in the press any articles justifying these increases. And the public are not able to ascertain from anything that comes from the Railway Commission why these advances were made.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The Department of Railways and Canals is in no way consulted with respect to these matters, nor has it more knowledge concerning rates fixed by the Commission that any lion, member of this House has. Speaking under correction, I believe the law provides that every railway in the country shall file with the Railway Commission a statement of the rates it intends to put in force. That statement must be published in the ' Canada Gazette.' But, before it can be enforced, it must be passed upon by the Railway Commission and must receive their approval. The publication in the * Gazette ' is to give
the public notice of what the railways propose to do. I think it is proposed that this shall be done annually some time near the close of the calendar year. Copies of these proposed tariffs are not filed with the Department of Railways and Canals. That is about all the informatioh I can give the hon. gentleman.


Albert Edward Kemp: As I understand it under the old regime, if any new rates were decided upon by the Railway Committee of the Privy Council, it would have been proper and right for any member of the House to inquire why these changes had been made, and it would be the duty of the government to make such an explanation. Do I understand that, under the Railway Act and under the Railway Commission, the public are unable to get such information as they were able to get in this way in times gone by?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think any member of this House can move for a return of the rates fixed and of the judgments delivered by the Board of Railway Commissioners in connection with rates ;-for in each case, there is an application, and there must be a determination, a judgment. The commission is supposed to be entirely independent politically and free from governmental action. Bnt, of course, it is subject to the order of this parliament for returns, and I am sure it is quite open for the hon. member (Mr. Kemp) to secure the information he desires in the way I have indicated.


Albert Edward Kemp: It is not necessary to move for such a return, because the information to which I refer is already published in the ' Canada Gazette.'


Henry Robert Emmerson: Is not that merely a notice of what they intended to apply for ?


Albert Edward Kemp: No. I presume it is a notice-
Mr. EMMERSON; My hon. friend will pardon me; I tried to make myself clear. The publication in the ' Gazette ' would be a notification to the public that they sought to have certain rates in force. A certain time must elapse before the commissioners determine the question, and when it was determined, there would be a publication in the ' Gazette ' of the judgment of the commission. That is as I understand the law, it is a question of law.


Albert Edward Kemp: That may be correct, and no doubt it is. But as a matter of fact, these tables are very complicated, they take up a great many pages of the 'Canada Gazette,' and it is very difficult to fathom them. The ordinary merchant of the country is unable to do it. He does not see the 'Canada Gazette,' he does not know that such rates have been published, or that the railways are asking for these changes. What the hon. gentleman refers to is probably the order


Albert Edward Kemp: Then it is an oversight in framing the Act. Are not the public to be as well protected under the new Railway Act as they were under the old regime of the Railway Committee of the Privy Council who controlled these matters, and is it not possible that the minister may have overlooked some clause in the Act by which this information may be obtained and published, through this House, so that such matters may be discussed on the floor of the House ?
X would like particularly to call the attention of the minister to the fact that in December last there were a great number of tables published in the 'Gazette,' both in respect to freight and passenger rates, and some of these were advanced, that is to say, maximum rates in both cases were advanced. Now why was that advance made ? How are the people to know that such an advance is necessary ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There was no advance made, it was only a proposal by the railway companies to advance ; but as I understand it, the advance has not been approved or sanctioned by the Railway Commission, and therefore is not in force.


Albert Edward Kemp: Well, I am glad for that much information on this subject. Is it "o-ing to be approved by the Railway Commission ? A long time has elapsed.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Now you have me.


Albert Edward Kemp: Well, will the Minister of Railways do this, will he inquire into the


Albert Edward Kemp: matter and tell us at some future time, when these estimates are going through, what is going to be done, and will he give us some information on this matter I have referred to ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I will inquire into it.


Andrew B. Ingram: More than that, I see nothing in the railway report, nothing has been submitted to parliament showing the amount of work the commission has done since these appointments and changes were made, or anything concerning the Railway Commission. We are in no position to judge as to whether they perform good work or bad. Moreover, the Railway Commission has already called in certain interested parties who are concerned in certain cases, and it is known that they have been deliberated upon, and now these same parties who had to appear before are obliged to appear again in order to have their cases tried over again. We have no information at all in regard to that. Prom time to time we get letters from correspondents who are interested in these cases, asking us for the information, and when we apply to the Railway Commission for the information, it is a long time before we can accomplish anything. I say that some kind of report should be made to parliament each session giving some details of the wrok of that commission. It is a very important body, and the Public are much interested in what they are doing.


Mr. LENNOX.: This is a new matter, and I want to get some information from the minister, and it is well that we should begin correctly. There is a good deal of information that the minister certainly can give us. This department, I understand, is under the control of the Minister of Railways, am I right in that ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Well, no, it is not. I have stated with some particularity the connection between the Department" of Railways and Canals and the Board of Railway Commissioners. But in a sense it is not under the control of the department. I am merely the avenue, they address me, because I happen to be the Minister of Railways, about certain matters, and I bring them to the notice of the Council. As to the ap~ pointments, that is a matter provided for by statute. But in other respects I have no control over or connection with that department. It is non-political entirely, and not departmental.


Haughton Lennox: I paid a great deal of attention to what the minister was saying in replying to my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Kemp), and I think I understood what he said, although there is a good deal of noise by talking in the House. But I understand that as regards the decisions come to by that tribunal and the reasons therefor, the Minister of Railways has nothing particularly to do with them.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am not advised of them.


Haughton Lennox: Exactly, he does not supervise it in any way, and for the reason that they are virtually in the position of judges, and like any other judges they do not come under any particular department except that we can appeal to the Minister of Justice with regard to judges generally. But there is another branch that I think remains strictly under the control of the Minister of Railways, and that is the matter of expenditure, the composition of the tribunal, the salaries, the number of officials employed in connection with it, the general establishment, such as offices and office equipment, provisions made for transportation by ears and, otherwise-all that would come under the control of the Minister of Railways. Am I right in that ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Measurably that is so. The appointments are made by the commissioners, appointments for clerical assistance and all that. They select their men. I could not on my own recommendation appoint any one to that commission, the Governor in Council could not. The appointments must be made on the nomination of the commissioners, first had and obtained, before the Governor in Council can take any action in the matter.


John Graham Haggart: Nonsense.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Look at the law.


Andrew B. Ingram: Here is subsection 2 of section 48 :
The minister may, with the approval of the Governor in Council, appoint and direct any person to inquire into and report upon any matter or thing which the minister is authorized to deal with under this or the Special Act.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Get the provision in regard to appointments to their staff. It is not necessary to have any excitement over the matter. I am only speaking of the way I read the law and of the contention of the commissioners. If my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram), whom I regret to have interrupted, will look at the provision of the statute relating to the appointments to the staff of that commission he will see where the power is given them to nominate and upon their nomination, and only upon their nomination, can the Governor in Council act.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, the clause following that is section 49, dealing with the powers respecting inquiry, entry, inspection, attendance of witnesses and so on. Any information that the hon. minister desires to obtain in connection with the Railway Commission may be obtained by order of the Governor in Council. Surely that is plain.	[DOT]


Haughton Lennox: In reference to this matter we may as well understand where we
are at. We have certain gentlemen who are appointed by the Governor in Council as a commission and who are officers of the administration. That office involves the expenditure of a large sum of money, the property of the people of Canada. It must be under the control of some department of government. I naturally thought upon looking up the statute that it would be under the control of the Department of Railways and Canals. I find in the estimates this item :
114. Railway Commission-maintenance and operation of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, $60,000.
If the hon. minister is the member of the government who has the control and management of that department, it is from him I wish to get the information. If the hon. minister is not the gentleman who has control of that matter then I know he will give me the information as to what member of the government has control of it. I am not asking any returns as to the decisions made by that tribunal. That is a matter which, if we inquired for it, would perhaps come from the hon. Minister of Justice, but the management of the board which we created, the expense attending that board, the general operations of that board and tlio way in which it is working* arc matters, if I understand it properly, that aie within the control and general direction of the Minister of Railways and Canals.
1 f not so, it ought to be so. If not so it is contrary to the understanding on which that board was created.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Will my hon. friend pardon me ? I just want to call his attention to one point. The point is this : Can the Department of Railways or any other department of the government control the movements of the board ?


Haughton Lennox: In some ways they can.


Andrew B. Ingram: In what direction ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Have we power to direct where they shall hold their meetings or under what circumstances they shall hold them ?	[DOT]


Mr LENNOX.: If it were necessary to discuss that question I would go into a discussion of it, but I do not think it is necessary at this time. I a0 not think they can control them in the way the hon. minister suggests. But, we are not pursuing that inquiry at the present time, This board of commissioners was appointed during the time that the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals was in office, but we have as yet had no information as to the expense incurred, as to the extent of the staff, as to the particulars of the offices that they fill, as to the mode of their travelling about the country or as to any investigation they have made. No information is given to the public to enable the

public to determine whether it is a successful institution or otherwise. It is right that the hon. minister should tell us now in a general way by a general introduction, by a speech of a quarter of an hour what this commission has donfi and if a quarter of an hour does not give us the information, by a speech of half an hour, or an hour, or by a. speech of sufficient length in the same way as he has on former occasions introduced to the House the subject of railways. He should make a concise statement of how this commission has been working up to the present time. When we created this tribunal it was created with the understanding that it should be responsible to parliament and immediately under the control of the Minister of Railways and Canals. If I am wrong in that, it is all the more reason why we should have a clear statement. This being a portion of his department we should have a concise statement from the hon. minister verbally now, but we should also have a concise report in printing or in writing laid before parliament so that we could intelligently discuss this matter and intelligently ascertain whether this tribunal had been successful or not.


Andrew B. Ingram: Surely there can be no question about the power of the Governor in Council to demand that kind of a report. Again I wish to call the attention of the hon. minister to section 45 which [DOT] reads as follows :
The Governor in Council may at any time refer to the board for a report, or other action, any question, matter or thing arising, or required to be done, under this Act, or the Special Act, and the board shall without delay comply therewith.
Suppose the Governor in Council desires a report from the Railway Commission as to what they have done from the time of their appointment up to the present moment for the purpose of submitting it to parliament, surely that section alone gives the Governor in Council power to get a report of that kind. It seems to me to be [DOT]a very peculiar state of affairs, that parliament having created a railway commission, the chairman of which cannot be removed without the consent of the House of Commons and the Senate, we are to be called upon to vote $GO.OOO or $90,000 a year for their sustenance and we are not to have any report from the board which we have created to show what they have done during the past year. It would be a remarkable state of affairs and I do not think that this Act ever intended to do anything of the kind. The Act, it seems to me, has provided ways and means by which parliament may be supplied with the information that it may desire in connection with the working of this commission.


Haughton Lennox: 


Mr. A. A. McLEAN.: I would like to ask the hon. minister a question in reference to other matters connected with the Railway Commission. I would like to know whether these commissioners have power to regulate freight tariffs on the government railways and also if they have power to regulate the tariffs of subsidized steamers, or whether that is a matter which is in the hands of the Minister of Trade and Commerce- I know that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction in reference to the rates which are charged on subsidized steamers, and it seems to me that there is no regulation at all and that the steamers can charge what they please. I think that if this Act does not cover this ground an amendment should be made in order that all these tariff matters should be under one head.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The commission has no control over the government railways of Canada, nor has it any jurisdiction in respect to steamships or the rates charged by steamships. I am not disputing or contending that such and such things should not be. I am only endeavouring to point out what I consider to be the law. I am quite free to admit that there should be a report from the commission. I am quite in accord with what has been stated in that regard and I think that the commissioners should make a report from time to time to the Governor in Council through the Department of Railways and Canals, for, as my hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Lennox) says, if this commission is not in any way connected with the government through the Department of Railways and Canals, he cannot see any other department by which it would be thus connected. I quite agree with him that the natural avenue and channel between that board and the government is through the Department of Railways and Canals, but it does not seem to me that the Act makes proper provision for that.


Albert Edward Kemp: The hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) has read the clause in the Act providing for that,


Henry Robert Emmerson: Section 45 which was read does not apply at all. That is qualified ; it says :
The Governor in Council may at any time refer to the board for a report, or other action, any question, matter or thing arising, or required to be done, under this Act, or the Special Act.
The Act must require the thing to be done before the board can be required to do it. In the same way if my hon. friend refers to section 48, subsection 2, he will find :
The minister may, with the approval of the Governor in Council, appoint and direct any person to inquire into and report upon any matter or thing which the minister is autho-

rized to deal with under this Act or the Special Act.
There is a qualified authority, hut if there is any section in the Act which gives authority over the board, commanding them and giving them authority to report I have failed to see it, and if there is any section which places the board in any sense under the direction and control of the Department of Railways and Canals, I would like to have it pointed out to me, because I can quite understand and fully appreciate all that has been stated with respect to the defects in that respect.


John Graham Haggart: Now that the minister's attention has been drawn to the subject I think his interpretation is correct. It is only when a special subject is referred to them that they are to report. There should be a clause inserted in the Act which would compel them to report to the House.
'Mr. EMMERSON. I agree entirely.


John Graham Haggart: They seem to be in a peculiar constitutional position, totally independent of the government and parliament. There is a clause in the Act which I think ought to be amended as it confers an extraordinary power to give to any railway commission.
There shall be attached to the board, such officers, clerks, stenographers and messengers as the board, with the approval of the Governor in Council, from time to time appoints.
What business have they appointing any officers at all ? That is a prerogative of the Grown. The appointment of officers of that kind should be done on the responsibility of ministers who are accountable to this parliament. The section proceeds.
The board may and will dismiss any employees.
Another power is given to them ; they can make a check upon the funds belonging to the Dominion for the purpose of paying these officers. I never heard of any such powers being granted to any commission under the sun. The principle of the constitution is the responsibility of ministers of parliament for appointments ; the prerogative and honour of appointment belongs nominally to the Crown, really to the Grown on the recommendation of his advisers. That is changed altogether. I suppose it is a nominal privilege and that the board do not consult even the Minister of Railways in reference to any appointment. They send in the name and you are obliged to approve it or otherwise the board will say :	We cannot get along without these
parties and if the minister refuses to appoint them there is an end of the commission. The commission should be a part and portion of the Railway Department, responsible, as every other branch of the service is, to the Crown and parliament.


George Eulas Foster: The position certainly has developed differently from what I thought it could possibly do, and as the Prime Minister is now in his seat I shall state what has occurred. We have here in vote 114 an item for the maintenance and operation of the Board of Railway Commissioners and the House is asked to vote them $60,000. We come to the Minister of Railways who is putting the vote through, and in accordance with our rights the House does not propose to vote any money unless it knows in the first place what it is wanted for, and, in the second place, if it is a continuing service what they did with the vote that we last gave them. When we asked the Minister of Railways about this he says : I have no report from the commission, nor has the House any report from the commission, and now it appears, when we look into the Act as my hon. friend (Mr. Hag-gart) has said, that there is no provision in the Act by which they are compelled each year to report to parliament what they, as the servants of parliament and the servants of the country, have done with the money which has been given them by the parliament the preceding year, and no method at all of communication between them and the public through the medium of parliament. The House is entirely within its rights in saying that it cannot vote $60,000 in addition to the vote of last year for the commission unless it has a report from the commission as to what it did with the money last year. It has been stated very clearly by several members that the House and the country have a right to know by yearly report just what the commission has done, just as the railway or any other department furnishes a report. When you come to the question of the appointment of staff, there again, as my hon. friend (Mr. Haggart) has stated, an anomalous position is created. It is possible that if the commission says: We want such and such persons at a such and such salaries, the Governor in Council may say :	We do not
approve of it. Then the commission will say to the government and will appeal to the country : Here are absolutely necessary officers that we want for the doing of our work and the Governor in Council has refused to appoint them. That is, there is no place where you can apportion the responsibility. These men act - entirely by themselves and we cannot call them to account nor can we call anybody to account under this law for full information as to the disposition of public moneys with reference to the operation and maintenance, of the board including the hiring of clerks, &c. Evidently there is a screw loose somewhere that ought to be put into the machine.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I must say that I have a confession to make to the House and a confession that is not pleasant to me. I did not know that the com-

mission was not only not empowered but not obliged to make a report. I have always understood that it was part of the duty of the commission to make a yearly report of their operations ; not only of the money which we gave them to spend as to how they have expended it-and for this we are responsible to parliament-but also of their operations, what they have done, what cases they have decided, so that the public could know exactly what has taken place. We have a right to that information and if it is found after a conference with the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Railways, who is more familiar than I am with the Act, that the commission is not bound to make such a report 1 think we should enact legislation this very session to have such a report from the commission. I shall at once call the attention of the Minister of Justice to this. If the commission is not under obligation to make such a report it is due to parliament that it should be at once put under such an obligation. With regard to the appointment of the staff of the commission there must be something more in the Act than what has been read by the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart). I know that we have had recommendations from the commissioners for appointments to the staff. Sometimes we agree to them and sometimes we disagree. Sometimes we take their recommendation and sometimes we do not; and I am more than surprised to hear my hon. friend the ex-Minister of Railways say that the commission have power to make any appointment without any reference at all to the Governor in Council.


John Graham Haggart: I did not say that.


Haughton Lennox: In section 21, subsection 2 it is provided :
There shall be attached to the board such officers, clerks, stenographers and messengers, as the board, with the approval of the Governor in Council, from time to time appoints, at such salaries or remunerations as are recommended by the board and approved by Governor in Council. The board may, at will, dismiss any such employee.


John Graham Haggart: That is extraordinary power-the power of dismissing and appointing. The Governor in Council has only the approval.


Wilfrid Laurier: No. As we have read the statute and acted upon it, we have received recommendations from the board, and have given our approval or our disapproval, as in our judgment the circumstances justified. As I understand, the government has not the power of initiating appointments. These have to be made on a report of the commissioners; but the commissioners cannot make any appointment of themselves. As I read the statute, the government has power to appoint on the recommendation of the board. I gave the


Wilfrid Laurier: House some time' ago a list of the appointments which have been made, and which now constitute the staff of the board.


Haughton Lennox: I hope the right hon. gentleman does not understand that I thought otherwise. I simply called his attention to the provision, so that he would see that it was as he suggested.


Albert Edward Kemp: I suppose that as a matter
of courtesy the Minister of Railways and Canals, until the law is amended, can from time to time get such information from the commission as the members of the House desire in regard to such matters as those I have referred to, and I hope he will try to get the information as soon as possible.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would suppose that even if the law were silent on this point, the commissioners themselves would make a report. If they failed to do so, the law could be amended, even in this very session.


George Eulas Foster: Although the law may have to be amended, and that will take some time, I think that if the proper minister suggested to the commissioners that they should make a report as soon as possible, they would do so, even though no law required it.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think that report should include both the cases that have been decided and those that are still pending before the commission. I have had a number of inquiries in regard to such eases. There have been long and unsatisfactory delays, and certain municipalities are anxious to get this information in order to know where they stand.


Haughton Lennox: I would call the attention of the right hon. gentleman to another view of the matter. Aside from the fact that we have no means of compelling a report, I apprehended that the Minister of Railways and Canals could give us general information as to the expenditures that had been incurred in connection with the commission up to the end of the last fiscal year. That information has not been given as yet, but I presume the minster is ready to give it.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I can give that to my hon. friend. During the past year, from July 1 to January 1, there was expended !p20,906.49 for maintenance and operation and $14,416.50 for salaries.


Mr. SPROULE.: Can the minister inform us whether any new appointments have been made to that commission lately, or whether any names for appointment have been submitted for the consideration of the Governor in Council, whose approval I take it is necessary?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There have been no appointments made lately, but there have

been recommendations which have not yet been acted upon.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have the names of the following gentlemen, or any of them, been submitted: James Clark, who is, I believe, a conductor on the Canada Atlantic Railway; D. J. McQuaig, who is at present a foreman on that railway; and P. Roy, at present an engineer on the same railway ? I want merely to say that these men were found to be very active partisans in the late elections, and they gave it to be understood by their friends that they were promised positions on this commission. Sly curiosity is aroused to know whether the government have fulfilled that promise, if such was . made, or, if not, whether they intend to do so at an early date?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have never heard any of the names mentioned by the hon. gentleman in connection with the Railway Commission in any way.


Mr.   BRAIN@: In the expenditure for last year I see an item of $1,250 for the services of one of the members of the commission prior to its inauguration. One of the gentlemen mentioned for the chairmanship was sent to the United States at an expenditure of $1,250 to make a report to the government as to the working of the United States Commission. I suppose there will be a report from that gentleman, and possibly the hon. minister can lay it on the


Henry Robert Emmerson: They were appointed immediately on his return. He utilized, in the organization of the board, the information that he had collected. There has been no report, so far as I know. I was not connected with the department at that time, so cannot speak from personal knowledge.


Andrew B. Ingram: What did the minister say was the cost of the car for the use of the commission ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: About $20,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: That was included in the $60,000 last year, yet the hon. gentleman is asking as large a vote this year. He does not expect to buy another car, I suppose ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The amount voted last year was $100,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: But the hon. minister must recollect the facts. The sum of $100,000 was put in the estimates of 1903-4 by the gentleman, then Minister of Railways, who afterwards became chairman of the commission.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) will find that there was an item of $40,000 and also an item of $60,00, and out of this came the cost of the car.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. minister is asking for $60,000, and also for $29,000 in addition.
. EMMERSON. The gentleman who became chairman of the commission was employed in that work. The Act was not brought into force in time to have him appointed, and it was necessary that he should confer with a similar board that had some experience in the United States. He was employed for that purpose, and his expenses were paid.


Mr.   BRAIN@: I do not wish to question the amount, which is not large. But this gentleman was paid $50 a day. And the minister will bear in mind that this was spent before the inauguration of the board I suppose this gentleman was not sent to the United States without the authoritv of some one, and I suppose it was by the authority of the Department of Railways and Canals. Here is an oflieer sent to the United States at an expense of $1,250 to investigate something-to find out about workings of the railway commissions of that co.untry, with a view to the organization of a commission here. Surely the minister would not say this oflieer was to make this investigation and return, and yet not report to anybody.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Whatever report he
gave he gave to his fellow commissioners, I think.


Mr.   BRAIN@: They were not then appointed.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That $29,000 is by statute, and the $60,000 is to pay for the staff and expenses that I have given.


Andrew B. Ingram: And the same items were to be paid with the estimates voted last year. The minister has a total of $89,000 to pay these expenses. On that calculation there is a reduction of $11,000. Yet, out of the vote of $100,000 last year, $20,000 was paid for the car. That means that there is an increase of about $9,000 this year.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is only within the year that the staff has been organized, and that explains the difference.


Mr.   BRAIN@: It is expected that $100,000 annually will be about the total charge upon the country for the commission ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) will probably recollect that Mr. Blair stated, when the Railway Act was going through parliament, that the commission created by that Act would cost about $100,000 a year.


Mr.   BRAIN@: I recollect that. But, now that the commission has been organized and commenced work, does the minister think that $100,000 will be sufficient to meet the expense ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that $100,000 will more than meet the expenses that are



now being incurred, or that may be anticipated in connection with the board.


Mr. MACLAREN.: Is it the intention of the government to add two others to the commission, making five instead of three ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I do not think there is any such expectation. Such a matter has not been the subject of consideration.


George Eulas Foster: Did I understand the minister to say that there had been no report by Mr. Blair of the preliminary examination he made in the United States ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I said I assumed that he had reported to his board, and utilized the information he got in organizing the commission, but that he had not made any report to the government or to the Department of Railways on the subject.


George Eulas Foster: I would suggest that we ought to have the report Mr. Blair made to the authorities to whom he reported, whoever they were. He was sent there to get preliminary knowledge and assistance in constituting the board and laying out its plans. It is important that the House should have that report, so that we could see what was done in the United States. No doubt it would be a pretty exhaustive report. The cost was $1,250, and we ought to know whether we received the benefit of our money. As I understand it, this $00,000 takes in everything except the statutory salaries of the commissioners themselves and the secretary.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is by statute.


George Eulas Foster: What are the particular services given by the staff ? Does the minister know anything about that ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I can give some idea of the work done.


George Eulas Foster: I have here a return in answer to the order of the House giving the names of officials and employees of the board. It might be as well to read it, so that ' Hansard ' may have it:
Officials, clerks and employees on pay-roll of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada on first of January, 1905, with the amount or
salary in each case :-
Per annum.


Hon.  M. E.@: Bernier, deputy chief commissioner	$8,000	00James Mills, commissioner	
8,000	00A. D. Cartwright, secretary	
3,000	00


George A.: Mountain, engineer	 4,800	00
James Hardwell, chief traffic expert.. 3,500 00
A.	G. Blair, jr., law clerk	 2,500	00
J. E. Duval, Inspector of accidents.. .. 2,200 00
G.	A. Brown, chief clerk, traffic department	 2,000	00
E. C. Lalonde, inspector of accidents.. 2,200 00 E. A. Pruneau, registrar and accountant 1,800 00 J. H. Dessier, assistant engineer.. .. 1,800 00 T. E. Simmonds, assistant engineer.. .. 1,800 00
H.	W. Messenger, clerk	 900	00
Norman Ham, clerk, traffic department 900 00
B.	Chevrier, clerk and stenographer.. 800 00 Mr. EMMERSON.
Per annum.
P. C. McGee, clerk and stenographer. .$ 800 00
C.	E. MacManus, clerk and stenographer 800 00


John W.: 
Henry Robert Emmerson: About $1230 a year-cook and chief and quarters.


George Eulas Foster: I mean the housing of the commission. I suppose rentals have to be paid ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is in the Public Works Department.


Mr FOSTER.: It is not included in this vote, but I wanted to get at the total cost of this commission when fully formed.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I hope it is fully formed now.


George Eulas Foster: It may be; but it is an infant yet, compared with what it will be. I see there is a law clerk employed. Do the board depend for legal instruction on their law clerk ? I would suppose that, two of these gentlemen being lawyers-one a very eminent lawyer, the chief commissioner it would not be necessary to employ a legal man to advise them. Is that the office of the law clerk, or does he simply look after things under their direction ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: His work is more of a solicitor's, going through documents, which would hardly be a part of the duty of the chief commissioner.


George Eulas Foster: That is. the law clerk is not a counsellor, but a clerk with a knowledge of the law ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is as I understand it. 1 purpose asking the commissioners for a full report, and will lay it on the table as soon as I get it.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister get the report made by Mr. Blair ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I will have a full report. I was wondering whether that wa3 in writing.


George Eulas Foster: I have noticed that there was a certain line of economy at certain times in the correspondence of the late chief commissioner with the government. There is not very much of that observable when examinations are being carried on and the expenses piled up. But when it comes to the writing of a letter or a long telegram, he drew the line at that very sharply.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 42) respecting the Vancouver, Westminster and Yukon Railway Company. -Mr. Macpherson.
Bill (No. 48) respecting the Toronto and Hamilton Railway Company.-Mr. Calvert.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. G4) respecting the Central Counties Railway Company.-Mr. Stewart.
Bill {No. 65) respecting the James Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Watson.
Bill (No. 68) respecting a Patent of the Paper Goods Company, Limited.-Mr. Mac-done] 1.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Maintenance and operation of Board of Railway Commissioners for .Canada, $60,000.
['The Minister of Public Works thinks there is some understanding between the Minister of Justice and the hon. member for South York about proceeding with the Bill respecting the Railway Commission. When that is disposed of, we shall proceed with supply, public works estimates.']
Haughton Lennox: I think this item had better stand, because 1 do not think we can discuss it profitably at the present time. I do not think the committee feels like letting it pass as it stands, until we get the information which the minister proposes to bring down, then we might consider it again.


George Eulas Foster: It may be some time before it can be brought down. If it causes any inconvenience to the minister, it might be passed with the admission that we can take it up at any time the minister is in his estimates, and discuss it further.


Haughton Lennox: I have no objection to that. In the meantime I wish to call attention to another matter before we pass away from this subject. I noticed in a statement furnished this afternoon and which was read by the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Kemp), that there are three items of $800 each for stenographers. This,
I understand, is one for each of the members of the commission. If the minister is not prepared to explain it now, I hope he will be able to explain it definitely when we come to this item again; we want to know why that expenditure is necessary. It is not a very large item, but it appears to 49J
me unnecessary, i think the matter has been up for discussion to some extent by members of the government to whose attention it has been drawn.


Albert Edward Kemp: I would like to ask the minister how long he thinks it will take to produce the information promised on the question as to whether there was an attempt made to advance the passengers and freight rates. The general impression in respect to this matter is that the rates have actually been advanced. The minister was under the impression this afternoon that the rates were merely published, but that thev had not been advanced.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is the impression I gathered.


Albert Edward Kemp: The impression I gathered from the press reports was that the rates are actually advanced and in effect at the present time.


George Eulas Foster: Will they appear in the * Gazette ' ?


Albert Edward Kemp: The explanation of the hon. minister in regard to that was that it was a notice that appeared in the ' Gazette.' The impression which the newspapers have in regard to the question is that the rates are actually in effect. How long does the hon. minister think it will take him to get the information and make a statement in regard to this question ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that the chairman of the commission and his colleagues are up in Ontario at the present moment, but immediately on then- return I will personally see the chairman and ask him for a report. I may say that the department has already called the attention of the commission-I learned this since the matter was up for discussion before recess-to the fact that a report from them as to their work would be desirable. That has not yet been received. That was at a time when the commission was without a chairman. Now that it has been fully reorganized, I shall have an opportunity of conferring with the chairman of the commission, and 1 trust that such a report as will meet the requirements of the House will at once be brought down.


George Eulas Foster: Is the hon. minister able to give the .expense incurred on account of rentals yet ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have not had an opportunity of getting that information.


Mr. HYMAN.: That item will likely be up to-night. I will have the information. I do not remember the exact amount, but I think it is about $5,000.


Haughton Lennox: The hon. minister's attention was probably diverted from the matter to which I alluded a moment ago.
I do not know whether he proposes to

answer the question that I asketl as to the stenographers.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There were three stenographers asked for. One was a general stenographer for the work of the department. Another was a French stenographer, who understood French, and who could write shorthand and typewrite in French. Another of the commissioners had a stenographer to do the work in his particular branch.


Haughton Lennox: Does the hon. minister understand that it is necessary to maintain a staff of three stenographers ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: They stated that they required three stenographers. That was the recommendation of the full board. They nominated their stenographers, and said that the work could not well go on unless they were provided with these stenographic clerks. They were appointed in view of the strong representations which the board made. You can very well understand how difficult it is for objection to be made when they say that they require certain officers in order to do the work expeditiously and efficiently. To raise any bar or objection to the appointments simply places them on the defensive, and they say :	Well, we
cannot do this work ; it is impossible for us to carry on the affairs of the commission unless we have these- officials. That is practically the condition of affairs when any question arises as respects the appointment of officials to their staff.


Henry Robert Emmerson: All I can say to my hon. friend is that I know nothing of any internal


Haughton Lennox: Or infernal

Mr. EMMERSON-arrangements of the commissioners as to whether they were on strike or disputing amongst themselves. The recommendation was signed by the full board, and it was placed in my hands.


George Eulas Foster: Did that come after the strike or before ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I cannot tell whether there was a strike. If my hon. friend (Mr. Lennox) says there was, I cannot question his statement, and I have no wish to ; but if there was a strike, it was not brought to my notice by any one of the commissioners,


George Eulas Foster: Does the hon. minister know whether there was any stoppage of pay for the fifteen days ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No ; the pay has gone on, as far as I know. But I may say very frankly that when this recommendation! came into my hands, I arranged for a conference with the commissioners as to the necessity of the appointment of the officials. It is very natural that we should have a full explanation as to the requirements. The view of the commission was that they needed these officials, and I am not sufficiently familiar with the work of their department to be in a position to state that they were actually wrong in the matter. I must submit to their judgment as respects


Haughton Lennox: I want to be perfectly candid with the hon. minister, and probably that will enable us to get back to the point. What I am told is that originally it was not contemplated to have three stenographers, but that one of the commissioners, who for the present, I need not name, insisted upon having one appropriated to himself, and that occasioned a deadlock. That commissioner went on strike because that request was not complied with.


George Eulas Foster: Went on strike ?


Haughton Lennox: Went on strike, and would not join with the chairman of the board in discharging the duties of the board until that request was complied with. I am told that the ministry did not at once see the necessity of complying with the demand, and that occasioned a prolonged strike. I am not sure of the number of days. I think it has been mentioned as fifteen. It is also stated that finally, not the commissioners but the government, capitulated and this extra stenographer was appointed. I believe there were other officials appointed in the same way, but I got my information as to this more directly. The hon. minister, as a member of the government, will know whether this is correct or not. It is not a question of the amount involved, although the total is very large, but it is the principle that I am directing my attention to.
that.


Mr. TAYLOR.: I understood the hon. minister to say, in reply to my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Kemp), that the new tariffs adopted by the railways and approved by the commission did not increase the freight rates. I know as a shipper


Henry Robert Emmerson: Let me correct my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor). The statement I made to the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Kemp) was that the new tariff that was advertised in the ' Gazette ' was not an approved tariff, but was simply a notice under the Act of tariff rates that had been filed for approval, and they were published in the ' Gazette ' with the view- of giving notice to the public of the proposals of these several railways. They were then subject to the approval of the board, but since that date they have not been passed upon very largely, I think, because there was no chairman of the commission. That is my understanding of it. I am not going to say that I am correct; I am only speaking of my understanding of the situation with respect to these freight tariffs. Whether they have been since approved of, and whether or not they are in force to-day, I cannot say.


George Taylor: I know as a matter of fact that whether approved of or not the I railways have put them in force, and I


Haughton Lennox: know that the rates hare increased from the old tariff in some cases nearly 50 per cent. The railways companies are acting on it and charging the increased tariff rates and I understand they are doing so with the approval of the commission.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: I may say that so far as the rates on grain and flour are concerned, the railway companies did advance the rates, but on account of the commission not approving of the new tariff they were obliged to abandon it. The advanced rate. I think, was enforced for only four or five days after which they returned to the old rate and the shippers are all putting in claims to the railways for rebates of the extra amounts collected during the four or five days. At the present time, so far as flour and grain is concerned, there is no difference from the rate that was in force early in the season.


George Taylor: It would be well for shippers throughout the country to know that. In some lines they have been paying the advanced rate from the time it was enforced and they are doing that to-day.


Haughton Lennox: At the time this matter was under discussion in the newspapers it was first announced that a rate had been fixed by the Railway Commission by which people would have to pay a larger sum. A clay or two afterwards it came out that this was a maximum rate and being only a maximum rate it would not necessarily affect the public or compel them to pay increased rates. It seemed to be admitted by the newspapers-and this was stated on the authority of some official in one or two newspapers-that it was necessary in order that the railways should be able to collect a toll that they should have the approval of the board within a certain time. They had gone to the Railway Board under that law which compelled them to get the approval of the board within a certain time, and it was stated that the board had formally approved of the maximum rates without considering the merits of the matter and that afterwards within the proper time the board would consider the question of what the actual rate should be- I do not know if this statement is correct ; I only mention it to the minister on the chance that it may recall something to his mind.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is not my understanding of it, although my friend may be correct. I have very simply stated my impression to the committee and I have assured the committee that I will lay upon the table of the House a full report in connection with the whole matter so that the committee can fully understand the exact situation.


George Eulas Foster: While the minister is doing that, if he will be kind enough to inform himself as to the special duties of these special men, and on what ground they
were appointed to these special positions, I would be very much obliged.
Canals staff and repairs, $803,039.


Henry Robert Emmerson: This is less than the item of last year, by $30,000. On the La-chine canal last year we asked for $133,265; this year we are asking for $133,030. On the SOulanges canal the expenditure has been lessened from $52,850 to $41,730. That was largely due to a lessening in the cost of the staff and also in the cost of repairs. There has been generally a lessening in the repairs at the different canals.


George Eulas Foster: What change is made by the fact that the government is not now collecting tolls ? Is not a large amount of the office work and staff work which would otherwise be necessary avoided by the fact that you do not now have to collect tolls? What is the amount of that reduction ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The next item is the one that covers that, salaries and contingencies in collector's offices. I may say with respect to the question that has been raised that I intimated yesterday that before I had concluded with my estimates I would be in a position to announce to the House the policy of the government with respect to the continuing of the non-collection ol tolls. That has not yet reached a point where I could make an announcement. Should it be determined to discontinue the collection of tolls on the canals, we shall of necessity dispense with the services of a large number of officials. I cannot say that they have less work in a sense. They do not collect, but their time has to be given to the work. They have to keep a correct record of everything that goes through the canals; the only difference is that the parties are not called on to pay the money. That record is furnished to the department. That has been done to learn whether there has been any appreciable effect on the traffic from the abolition of canal tolls.


George Eulas Foster: How many years has the freedom of the canals been in operation?


Henry Robert Emmerson: For two seasons.


George Eulas Foster: And for those two seasons you have been keeping a complete record of everything passing each way?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Just the same as if tolls had been collected.


George Eulas Foster: The only thing you are not doing is taking the money?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is all.


Richard Blain: What Was the total revenue per annum from the canal?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The year preceding the last season it would have been $325,000. and last season it would have been $288,000; I am speaking from memory. There was

a decrease last year as compared with the preceding year, that was largely in excess of the year 1902-3, and both years, 1902-3 and 1903-4. were largely in excess of the preceding year.


Mr.   BBAIN@: How does that compare with say ten years ago?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that for a number of years the revenue was practically stationary. Many years ago it was larger. As my hon. friend knows, transportation by water-routes is less now than it was twenty-five years ago.


George Eulas Foster: Do you mean absolutely or comparatively?
Mr. EMMEiRSON. Comparatively. There was a larger proportion of the traffic of the country carried by water.


Albert Edward Kemp: There is more tonnage to-day than there was at that period?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, there is more tonnage.
Additional to persons employed permanently in the public service, and remuneration to any other persons for services rendered for and in connection with passing vessels through the canals of the government of Canada, from midnight on Saturday to midnight on Sunday, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $20,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I may say that this is in excess of the vote of last year. We have found during the last two years that the annual vote of $18,000 has been too little. We are paying larger wages to the men. and there is more night work and Sunday work. At certain seasons of the year certain canals are open on Sunday towards the close of navigation, and there is more night work necessary for the traffic which requires expedition and speed. So that instead of asking for an annual vote of $18,000 and a supplementary vote, I thought, on the advice of the officials, that it was better to ask for the $20,000 and be done with it.
Belleville armoury, $30,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a revote from last year. A site has been given by the town, but there is some dissatisfaction with it, and the department is at present in communication with the authorities of the town with regard to a change of the site. Immediately after the site is settled on, the building will be proceeded with. It will be practically the same as the Chatham building, the total cost of which is about $65,000.


George Eulas Foster: Does the minister know what the policy of the government is in reference to armouries? Are they going on putting up now one and now another without any fixed policy?


Charles Smith Hyman: There is quite a large town there, the town of Belleville, and a regiment


Henry Robert Emmerson: of eight companies, which has no armoury. It is the policy of the government where there are regiments of that size to provide armouries, but of course the whole of Canada cannot be provided for in one year.


George Eulas Foster: What is the minimum force that must be in a place to entitle it to an armoury ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Where there is a country battalion, there should be an armoury, not a large armoury, but some place where the arms can be stored and which may be used as headquarters.


George Eulas Foster: In such a small place what would be the cost Of a respectable armoury ?


Charles Smith Hyman: That would depend on the unit of the battalion. The cost runs all the way down to $5,000.


George Eulas Foster: Of course the hon. minister has nothing to do with this except to put up the armouries decided upon by the Militia Department. In cases of this kind it would certainly be a great advantage to have the other ministers interested present. The Minister of Public Works is not supposed to understand thoroughly the policy of the Militia Department with regard to armouries and cannot give the explanations which the committee requires. One easily sees that if the Militia Department is going on some fixed principle as to armouries, we are entering upon a course which involves large obligations. Itwould be interesting to know how many of these armouries we have already built and how they square with the numbers of the militia in each place. Then we should know what is the minimum of the force which could reasonably expect to have an armoury. Then we should have the number and distribution of these armouries throughout the Dominion, because if the policy be a good one it will have to be applied not only to Belleville and the smaller places but generally. Quite true it is impossible to build them all in one year ; but if we start on a common policy, we should have the basis on which such expenditure is to be made. We cannot have that information to-night because the Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden) is not here. I do not want to be carping but ministers seem to think they are not interested when the estimates are going through outside of their own. But in all these matters, especially Public Works, where that department builds for many different departments, it is important that the ministers of the other departments should be here while the estimates are going through. I do not think that is making too harsh a criticism. It may be all very well for our ministers to dine out and enjoy social festivities, but they should be here to attend to business. It is very nice to throw off dull care and get out of the atmosphere of the House when estimates, in which you are not directly interested, are on, but that is

not treating the House properly. The Solicitor General is here, showing a very good spirit of attention to business, and so is the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, i believe. We miss his presence very often and he is not here any too much. Then we have the Postmaster General-his interesting figure is generally here. But where are all the rest and where particularly to-night is the Minister of Militia and Defence when these estimates on armouries are being put through ? He ought to be here.


Charles Smith Hyman: This work is under contract and the vote now asked will practically complete the work. There was a question raised by the bon. gentleman for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) the other day as to whether a bowling alley should be put in the building.


George Eulas Foster: A bowling alley ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes, all the larger armouries are provided with bowling alleys for the recreation of the men.


Charles Smith Hyman: Unfortunately he had an engagement to-night which renders it impossible for him to be here.


George Eulas Foster: This is for additions and alterations. Does it make practically a new building?


George Eulas Foster: But these engagements should not be the rule.


Charles Smith Hyman: Not exactly, but it is a very large extention of the old building.


Charles Smith Hyman: If the committee finds any objections, I am sure the Minister of Militia will be glad to add to the explanations I have given. It is almost impossible to lay down a rule which can be followed in all circumstances. There are so many things to be considered even beyond the unit of the militia. A drill shed may be l'equired in a place where there are but* 500 men-one that will suit the wants of that district. And if a small place has no provision of any kind for the militia, it may be necessary to build the armoury in that place before going on with a larger one. It will be impossible to lay down a rule which could be adhered to under any circumstances. Hamilton has a drill hall, but a new regiment is raised there, and it is incumbent on the department to provide facilities for the housing of that regiment. That is something which could not be well foreseen and I do not know that any rule can be laid down which would not be departed from in many instances.


George Eulas Foster: There could be a general policy.


Charles Smith Hyman: You must have headquarters for every corps where they can have storage for their arms. That is being proceeded with and will be completed as soon as possible, always remembering not to have too large an expenditure in one year.
Bowmanville public building, $7,200.


Charles Smith Hyman: The total expenditure is $32,000.


George Eulas Foster: The department bought the site I suppose?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.	.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population ot Bowmanville?


Charles Smith Hyman: When the building started it was 3,377.


George Eulas Foster: What are the revenues ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Postal, $4,730 and customs,

Brantford drill hall-additions and alterations, $2S,000.


George Eulas Foster: What will be the total
cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is estimated in the neighbourhood of $45,000.


Mr. WORTHINGTON.: Is there more than one regiment in Brantford?


Charles Smith Hyman: Only one regiment.
Bridgeburg public building, $16,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The need for this building is not to be estimated by the size of the place alone. Bridgeburg is a small place, of only 1,350 people. But it is a border town, just opposite Buffalo, and there is a large number of customs officers there doing inspection work, and there are other special reasons for the building.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. HYMAN. Mr. FOSTER. Mr. HYMAN. Mr. FOSTER. Mr. HYMAN.
What county is it in? Welland.
What are the revenues ? Postal, $13,061.
What makes it that size ?
VJ , ,, ,	it is a border town, and,
believe there is a great race-track in the *icinity which attracts an immense number ,f neonle from Buffalo.


George Eulas Foster: What is the customs revenue?
.Mr. HYMAN. This is part of Fort Erie and the customs revenue is $519,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the building located at the end of the International bridge ?


Mr. PATERSON.: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where the customs officers had their quarters before?


William Paterson: Yes. This public building has been asked rather by the department than by the people. It is a great manifesting point, just opposite Buffalo. Our documents were kept in a little room in the Michigan Central station which was entirely unsafe. This is a permanent building and absolutely needed in the public interest.


George Eulas Foster: Had you rented quarters before?


William Paterson: So far as tlie Customs Department were concerned, tbe railway furnished us with a room, a place in their freight shed, but with no safe and no proper place for storing documents. We have a large transfer business, and a great accumulation of papers. It would have been very serious if a tire had taken place. The construction of this building was urged upon me by the inspectors and I am probably mainly responsible for the Department of Public Woi'ks taking it up.


George Eulas Foster: What will be the total cost, and how divided?


Charles Smith Hyman: In the neighbourhood of $25,000, made up of: contract, $15,000; heating, $2,000; wiring, $500; fittings, furniture, letter-box fronts, $3,000; sidewalk damages if necessary, $500, and contingencies to make up $25,000.


George Eulas Foster: What did the site cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: It cost $707.


George Eulas Foster: This is a rather expensive building in which to store records.


Charles Smith Hyman: There is the post office in addition, of course.


Andrew B. Ingram: The land, no doubt, is rather high. But the building is necessary. They have a considerable staff of customs officers there. This is, no doubt, an important point.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the contractor?


Charles Smith Hyman: The contractors are .T. E. Cutler and M. Vanderburg, of Welland.


George Eulas Foster: Tenders were called for, I suppose?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.
Mr. FOSTER, What is the building made of ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Brick, with a stone foundation.


George Eulas Foster: What rentals were paid before?


Charles Smith Hyman: Post office, $120 and customs house, $124.
Chatham armoury, $55,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is to complete building. The work is under contract. The site belonged to the government, but, as it was low, the foundation had to be heightened, which will increase the cost of the building $4,000 or $5,000 over what such a building would cost under ordinary circumstances. The total cost will be $65,000.


Mr. CLEMENTS.: I must congratulate the government upon building this armoury for it is very much needed. I will ask the minister to see to it that it is completed Mr. PATERSON.
as soon as possible. We have a very worthy regiment, who are much in need of proper quarters, the present quarters being very bad.


Mr. PRINGLE.: I would ask the Minister of Public Works upon what principle the armouries are decided upon. I find in the estimates provision for armouries in a large number of places in Ontario and other provinces. We, in. Cornwall, have been promised an armoury for some time. We are not so ambitious there as some other places are; we do not want a very extravagant building. But we have one of the finest battalions in eastern Ontario and they have no place whatever to store their arms. If the government could see their way to a reasonable expenditure, even an expenditure of $8,000 or $10,000, I think we could make it meet our requirements.
Some two years ago the then Minister of Public Works visited the town of Cornwall, looked at the different sites that were proposed, and gave every assurance that the armoury would be erected in a very short time. Since then we have heard nothing whatever about it. The town of Cornwall is the centre of three counties. Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, and I understand from the military men that it is absolutely necessary that they should have a proper building for the storing of their arms. As I say, we are not so ambitious as Brockville, Belleville. Cobourg, London and a dozen other places in Ontario. we will be satisfied with a reasonable amount. $8,000 or $10,000 for an armoury will meet the requirements. But I feel a little sore that the town of Cornwall should be ignored completely, especially as two years ago the matter was taken into consideration by the Minister of Militia and also by the Minister of Public Works, and a definite promise, I understand, was made to the military men that we would have at least an armoury in that town.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. member will understand that the initiation of such a building does liot come from the Public Works Department, but from the Militia Department. I have no doubt that if the hon. gentleman makes as strong a case with the Minister of Militia as he has made here to-night, the Minister of Militia will give him every consideration. If the Militia Department asks for an armoury at that place, the Public Works Department will endeavour to make one which will be a credit to the department. I do not, of course, know the situation there, but I have no doubt in the world that Cornwall's time will come, and I am sure the Minister of Militia will be glad to listen to any representations that may be made.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I waited on the Minister of Militia some two years ago with a deputation from the town of Cornwall, and also on the Minister of Public Works. The

Minister of Militia was not very definite in his promise, but the Minister of Public Works was very definite, and gave us very positive assurances that it would be only a short time before an armoury would be erected. Subsequently the Minister of Public Works, while passing over the Cornwall canal, visited the town and was shown the different sites that were suitable for an armoury, and he expressed a very strong opinion in favour of one of them, and gave us every assurance that the building would be erected. Now we are put off again.


Charles Smith Hyman: It wall come.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: If it will come, I am quite satisfied. Might I ask the minister when it is likely to come ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Surely the hon. gentleman does not want me to make a definite pledge after a predecessor of mine has made a pledge which the hon. gentleman says he has not carried out.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I should think the hon. gentleman would carry out the pledges made by his predecessor.


Mr. LANCASTER.: I would like to ask whether the city of Chatham furnished a site for this armoury, or did the Crown pur-. chase it ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is being erected on ground which belongs to the government.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: How many men are going to use it ?


Charles Smith Hyman: One regiment.


Mr. COCKSHUTT.: I desire to ask the hon. gentleman if any provision will be made in the city of Brantford for a parade ground. The building there is undergoing considerable alterations. I regret I was not in when they were under discussion, but I may take advantage of this item to remind the minister that we have very little ground there indeed, in fact no ground upon which a regiment can form up. The building itself is not large enough to accommodate the whole of the regiment, so that they can form up. The men of the regiment desire to know whether or not it will be possible in the near future to provide some ground in the vicinity that will be suitable for a parade ground. The hon. gentleman visited the city a short time ago, I believe, and he will know that what I ask for is a necessary adjunct to the building. I do not desire to criticise the item with regal'd to the armoury at Brantford at all, as I think the expenditure has been a wise one. and was necessary in the interest of the regiment. The regiment is now increasing its strength, I think two more companies are being raised at the present time, and this parade ground will be a very suitable adjunct to the present alterations that are going on. If the minister can see his way to provide a little
territory there, near at hand, I think it can be procured for a reasonable price, it would be much appreciated by the regiment. I would also like to ask if it is likely that the improvements now going on will be completed in the near future. They have been under way for a considerable length of time. There is a little complaint about the dilatory way in which the contract is being carried on. I think the work is very good, but the progress is not all that could be desired. I would like to be able to give our friends an assurance that it will be pressed with all possible speed, and that this parade ground will come in the near future.


Charles Smith Hyman: With regard to the work that is being done on the drill hall, the time for the completion of the contract expires on the 6th of October, and the department will endeavour to see that the work is completed by that time. Of course it will be impossible to have it completed before then. In x-egard to the question of procuring some extra ground in connection with the building, I think that Brantford has a right to it and it will be necessary for the government to procure a small piece of ground in addition to that which we have. From the present moment I contemplate being able to purchase that ground, provided the price is satisfactory. I think the city of Brantford has done a great deal towards the erection of this armoury in providing the site. It is a beautiful site, and I think there should be some additional ground, and I hope to provide that out of the present vote without asking the House for any further sum.
iCobourg armoury, $14,500.


Richard Blain: On the question of armouries, I may say that I brought the attention of the Minister of Militia to the condition of the 36th Peel Battalion two or three years ago. There was a promise given at that time that the matter would be taken up and considered. We have a public building in the town of Brampton at the present time and a post office in an adjoining building. With a small expenditure, provision could be made in that same building for taking care of the arms of the 36th Peel Battalion. Some objection was raised to that proposition on the ground that the Public Works Department were unwilling to allow arms to be stored in the post office building- May I ask the minister if there is any such policy on the part of the department ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course, so far as I am concerned, and the department is concerned, I can see no objections to storing the arms in the public building. I shall be glad if the hon. gentleman will let me have exact details of what he wishes to be done, and I shall be glad to discuss the matter with the Minister of Militia at the first opportunity.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Does the town of Cobourg furnish the site for the armoury, or did the Crown purchase it ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The government bought the site.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What was the cost of the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 


George Eulas Foster: What is to be the cost of the building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Is that for the accommodation of more than one regiment ?


Charles Smith Hyman: In Cobourg there is the 4th Midland field battery and the 40th Northumberland regiment.
Guelph armoury, $40,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: Guelph is the centre of military district No. 1 and is the headquarters of a number of corps. The estimated cost of the building is $125,000. The reason that the cost is larger than that of some other buildings of a similar character is on account of the large number of guns. The battery is to be doubled up and it will have twice the number of gnus.


George Eulas Foster: What has prevented the work from going on ? I see that this is a rebate.


Charles Smith Hyman: We have just got the site. We have not made any expenditure. The plans and specifications are being prepared.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where is the Guelph armoury to be located ?


Charles Smith Hyman: On the fair grounds facing Huskisson Street-178 feet on Huskis-son Street, 467 feet on Farquhar Street and 885 feet on Freshfield Street.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the hon. gentleman know the location himself ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not. I never was in Guelph but once in my life.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it on what is called the market square ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I am informed by the officer of the department that It is near the market square.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does it take up all the ground they cad the fair ground ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I am unable to give the hon. gentleman that information.


Andrew B. Ingram: I see the architect there and I presume he would know.


Charles Smith Hyman: It is bounded by three streets and I presume that it will naturally take in all of the ground within these three streets.


Charles Smith Hyman: 


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand that the hon. gentleman will erect the armoury beside the parade ground where the men collect for drill. In some places the selection of the parade ground has been made at a considerable distance from the heart of the town or city and by reason of the long distance from the centre of the town regiments have not done well because you cannot get young men to attend drill when the parade ground is far from the centre of the town. I am glad to know that in the city of Guelph that difficulty does not present itself. In my own city, I know, it has been the means of the regiment being disbanded. The distance to the parade ground was so great that the men would not go. They have reorganized the regiment again, but I do not know whether they are going to make any greater success of it than they did before or not. They have made a mistake in that case which I hope will not occur again.


Charles Smith Hyman: Wherever possible the armoury ought to be accessible to the town. But, a difficulty in regard to procuring parade grounds in close proximity to the armoury presents itself when we consider the cost of land in the centre of a city.


Andrew B. Ingram: In the city of London you have made an improvement in your armoury by having it more centrally located.


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes, but the old armoury was not out of the way.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where do you have your drill ground ?


Charles Smith Hyman: They use the park.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: I am glad, to see that the hon. minister approves of having the drill hall near the parade ground. I think it is a very wise plan indeed, because if a drill hall is half a mile or so away from the parade ground it is a great inconvenience, especially to city corps, with whom most of the drill is done at night. Probably the men cannot get together before seven o'clock, and if they have to assemble at the armoury and walk half a mile to the parade ground it takes up half of the evening before they get down to drill.
1 think the question of having the drill shed at or in the vicinity of the parade ground is one that should commend itself to the hon. minister.


Charles Smith Hyman: It is impossible to carry out both of the hon. gentleman's ideas. If you were to have both the parade ground and drill shed in the centre of the city I am afraid the cost would be such that the committee would never allow the department to commit itself to the expenditure of such a large amount of money. In London there is no drill ground attached to the armoury but there is a park two or three blocks

away from tlie armoury and the regiments march to the park and drill there. It is not expected that the department shall always provide a drill ground... It is only done where the cost is sufficiently reasonable to enable the department to do so.


Richard Blain: On this question of the Guelph armoury the right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) made a rather extended tour in Ontario during the last election, and I noticed very many references in the daily newspapers of the time to statements made hy hon. gentlemen representing constituencies and sitting on that side of the House. For instance, the former member for West Kent made the statement that he had fulfilled all the promises he had made because he had got so many thousand dollars expended in his county. On the question of the Guelph armoury I would like to draw the hon. minister's attention to this statement by the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) as published in the 'Globe ' of October 13, 1904 :
Mr. Guthrie said he had promised on his election to have the Guelph post office renovated and enlarged.
That was the promise, and to quote again:
A third promise of his had been that ho would secure armouries for Guelph, and he was glad to say that he had secured them at last and the plans were in the city now.
I wish to draw the hon. minister's attention to the fact. Perhaps he could state how hon. members on this side of the House could reach the government. That is the way hon. gentlemen opposite representing these constituencies reach the government and I thought perhaps there was a policy by which we could reach them. It seemed to be a general topic of discussion during the right hon. gentleman's tour through the province of Ontario. Whenever he went to a town an armoury was required, and the hon. gentleman representing the county, or the candidate, would stand up and say that he would get an armoury for that town if the constituency would support the present administration. I am supposing there are no politics in the hon. gentleman's department.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is the first time I ever heard it suggested.


Richard Blain: I suppose the hon. gentleman will repudiate the statement of the hon. member who represents South Wellington. That hon. gentleman made three promises to his electors : First, that he would get the post office renovated, and he was very glad that he had got the government to renovate it. The third was that he would secure armouries and he was glad to state to the electors that he had secured a promise from the government to erect armouries. I call the attention of the
minister to the fact and I hope he will not allow this political warfare to creep into the administration of his department.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman himself within the last ten minutes has asked the department to spend $10,000 on a building in his constituency. What is to be thought of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) ? Is it that he is trying to bribe his constituents by asking what is an unnecessary expenditure? I assume that hon. gentlemen on either side have a perfect right to look after the interests of their constituencies, and to make representations to the government in regard to the interests of their own districts. I prom ised to the hon. gentleman in regard to the matter which he brought up, a very sympathetic ear, and I shall be glad indeed if I am able to carry out his wishes in the matter. All ministers and all departments, I presume, are always open to have any member of the House make such representations on behalf of their constituents as they desire to make. I am always glad to hear from members on either side of the House.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: In reference to the armoury of which I was speaking a few moments ago, I find in the estimates of this year that provision is made for armouries at Belleville, Chatham, Cobourg, Guelph, Hamilton, Peterborough, St. Catharines, Stratford and Woodstock.


Charles Smith Hyman: These are not initiatory votes for any of these works. Some of them have been there for two or three years.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Some are no doubt for the completion of buildings already started. Two or three years ago we had estimates for Brockville, St. Thomas, Barrie and a number of other towns. I wish to impress on the hon. gentleman that the most important town in eastern Ontario, a town in the centre of three very important counties, has been neglected for many years notwithstanding that the military authorities interested have come here and presented the matter to the government, I think in an absolutely fair light, and have received assurances from the government that something would be done, at any rate, in the way of erecting a building in which they could store their arms; but nothing has been done. I am glad to hear the hon. minister say that it will come in due time. I would like a little more definite promise; I would like to see it come at once.


Charles Smith Hyman: While you live ?


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: While I live. It has been hanging fire a good many years and I would like to see an item in the estimates for this year. As I said before we are not extravagant in our ideas. We simply want a good and substantial building suitable to meet the requirements there. I am not in

a position to say just what the requirements are as well as the officers of the battalion, who have come here on several occasions. X might say to the hon. gentleman that the officers of the 59th Battalion are not by any means all Conservatives. Those who are at the head of the battalion are very strong supporters of this government and they feel very grieved that they can get no satisfactory answer from this government as to what they are going to do in regard to an armoury there. As I said two years ago they were directed to select a site ; they selected a site and submitted it to the government but the matter hung tire and they gat promise after promise. Immediately prior to the election of last November it was stated without any question that the armoury would be erected at once and still I see nothing in these estimates for it. I, of course, expected that there would be something for the Cornwall drill hall and I have no doubt it will be in the supplementary estimates.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman will understand that it is not the custom of any government to put initiatory expenditures in the main estimates. The hon. gentleman, like every one else, will have to abide in patience until the supplementaries are out. I shall be glad to listen to any representations of any hon. gentleman in reference to the matter.
Hamilton drill hall-addition, $50,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The item of $50,000 for the Hamilton drill hall does not cover the total expenditure that it will be necessary to make in the city of Hamilton. I know that a new regiment, a Highland regiment, has been lately formed in Hamilton, and although they have a very fair drill hall there the number of corps using that hall so crowd it that it will be necessary to make a new provision for Hamilton. I have not been able to reach the exact amount of expenditure that will be necessary because there will be some question as to wh'ether it will be necessary to build an entirely new hall or whether a part of the old hall can be used. For that reason I am not able to give the exact expenditure, but I should say that the expenditure necessary to provide accommodation will be in the neighbourhood of $125,000 or $150,000. The matter has been carefully gone into ; we have had several plans made but I have not been able to satisfy myself as yet as to the plan to be adopted. In this case I shall have to ask the House to pass the vote without any exact estimates, for the reason that I cannot tell how much of the old building we will be able to use.


Andrew B. Ingram: I wish to read some quotations from a paper about promises by members.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman is not surely going to read any promises made by the hon. member for Hamilton ?


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: 


Andrew B. Ingram: I am going to perhaps a higher authority.


Charles Smith Hyman: There could be no higher authority.


Andrew B. Ingram: When the premier was in South Wellington he assured the electors that the government had joined the government of Mexico in subsidizing a steamship line to that country which would afford a market for their manufactured goods. I have been wondering since this matter was discussed in the House whether that was correct or not. The other night when the estimates went through there was no line subsidized.


Charles Smith Hyman: I do know, as a matter of fact, that although the bargain may not have been entirely consummated, the government are in negotiation with the Mexican government for the establishment of a line, not only on the Atlantic but on the Pacific.


Andrew B. Ingram: If my hon. friend on your right (Mr. Paterson) will make that statement I will be glad, but he would not venture to do it when the estimates were up in the House.
Hawltesbury public building, $13,000.


George Eulas Foster: How much will this cost 5


Charles Smith Hyman: This is just for completion. The estimate for the building complete is $18,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population of Hawkesbury ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 4,150.


George Eulas Foster: And the postal customs revenue ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The postal revenue is $2,944. They'are making application for a customs office there ; it is not established yet.


George Eulas Foster: What are the rentals of the present accommodation ?


Charles Smith Hyman: $120 per annum.
Kingston military buildings-barracks, Royal Canadian Field Artillery, $20,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a revote. There has been no use made of it as yet, for the reason that it is not the intention of the Militia Department to proceed with the construction of these barracks until they are able to dispose of the land on which the old barracks are erected.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Have the aid barracks been condemned as being unsanitary ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do not know that they have been condemned, but there have been protests with regard to them.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Have there been any reports from medical boards as to the unsanitary condition of the buildings ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 1 think there has. I think the attention of the department has been called to their unsanitary condition.
Kingston military buildings-stable accommodation for field battery, $5,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is in place of the building that was burned. This amount will nearly cover the cost.
Kingston Royal Military College-addition to drill hall, $6,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is for the purpose of providing a drill hall and also a building which can be used in the winter as a skating rink for the Royal Military College. Plans and specifications were prepared, but the estimate was so large that we gave instructions to have new plans made. We hope to keep the cost within $12,000 or $15,000.
Kingston Royal Military College-servants' quarters, $8,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is to be the cost of that 'building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: If the hon. gentleman will allow the vote to pass, 1 shall be very glad to send him an estimate. As a matter of fact, I spent two hours to-day in consultation with the architect of the Militia Department, and this is one of the items on which they have not the full particulars. My recollection is that the cost will be in the neighbourhood of $15,000.


George Taylor: Two years ago I had the pleasure of riding up past Kingston with the Minister of the Interior, and I drew his attention to the fact that in the neighbourhood of the military properties at Kingston there are two or three martello towers, which were erected there many years ago. The masonry is all in first-class condition, but during a heavy gale two or three years ago they were unroofed, and they have been left in that dilapidated condition. I think the department ought to spend a few hundred dollars in having these old land marks preserved. The Minister of the Interior fully agreed with me when I drew his attention to them.


Charles Smith Hyman: I am very glad the hon. gentleman has brought this matter to my attention. The committee understands that the care of the military buildings is not vested in the Public Works Department, but in the Militia Department. I have asked the deputy to take a memorandum, and I will have the attention of the militia authorities called to the hon. gentleman's suggestion.
Kingston Royal Military College-stable, $5,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is to be the full cost of that ?


Charles Smith Hyman: This is a stable for the permanent corps, and it is to include quarters for the grooms. The cost will be in the neighbourhood of $18,000. I understand that these stables are built in accordance with the regulations, which require a certain space for so many horses and so many grooms.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is this stable being built inside or outside the grounds of the college 1 I am told that objections have been raised on account of these stables being built too near the officers' quarters.


Charles Smith Hyman: There has been no request made to the Public Works Department for any expenditure for a site, and, therefore, I presume that it must be the intention of the Militia Department to have the stables placed on the grounds owned by the department.


George Taylor: The department owns* about a thousand acres of land there.
' London military buildings-magazine, $3,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: Where is that situated ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The magazine has not yet been built. This vote is for the purpose of building one for the permanent corps of London. It is also intended to erect one at Winnipeg, one at Toronto and one at Montreal.
London military buildings-new stores building, $10,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is aiso a vote which appears in the estimates for Toronto, Montreal, London and Winnipeg. It is for the purpose of providing a building at each of the different headquarters wherein material for the department can be stored.


George Eulas Foster: What kind of stores are they ?


Charles Smith Hyman: All kinds of camp stores. The ammunition will be kept in the magazine. These buildings are to be practically fire-proof buildings, and about 65 by 48 feet in area. Each will cost in the neighbourhood of $40,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where will the London building be located ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It will be on the line of the Canadian Pacific Railway, at the edge of the government property, near the ground where a corps is stationed.


Albert Edward Kemp: Will the work be gone on with at an early date '!


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes. The specifications are made for some of the buildings, and we are going to build them on the same plan.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: Before this military item is passed, I would like to call the attention of the minister to the condition of the drill hall, or, to speak more accurately, the drill shed at Summerside.


Charles Smith Hyman: When we come to the items for Prince Edward Island that will be in order.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I do not see any item for Prince Edward Island, and that is the reason I put in a plea here. The drill shed at Summerside is not fit for the accommodation of the military men. It is an old building, standing on a public square. There is no floor in it, and it is absolutely impossible to use it in winter. I took occasion several times last session to talk privately to the Minister of Militia on this matter, and he promised that it would receive some attention. I think he said he would send a man down to investigate. I do not know whether he has brought the matter to the attention of the Minister of Public Works or not. If not, I would like to take this occasion to call his attention to it, in the hope that he will put a sum in the supplementary estimates to put the building into proper condition to be used or to erect a new building. We would prefer to have $10,000 voted to erect a permanent building, for the policy of the government is to erect permanent buildings for the accommodation of the militia throughout Canada.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have explained to the hon. gentleman that the care of these buildings is not vested in the Public Works Department but in the Militia Department. 1 have asked the deputy minister to take a memorandum.


George Eulas Foster: It would be a good idea to let the items that have to do with militia buildings stand and go on with the others. It is utterly absurd to take up these items and have the minister tell us that he will take notes and get from the Minister of Militia the information required.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is the first one in which I have taken such notes. If my hon. friend will consent, I should be very glad to leave one item on which we could have a general discussion when the Minister of Militia is here.


George Eulas Foster: Leave one or two.
London post office-addition to building and improvements, $20,000.


Mr. ELSON.: What are these improvements?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is intended to raise the back part of the west side of the office up to the full height of the building and to take in the balance of the ground which belongs to the department at the back end of the post office. It is Intended to enlarge the working rooms down stairs and move those working downstairs to the story above.
North Bay public building, $15,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The customs revenue is $29,320, and the population 2,530, the cost will be about $40,000.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: 


George Eulas Foster: What justification is there for putting up a building of that size?


Charles Smith Hyman: The population is increasing there very rapidly and it would not be wise to put up a building only suitable to the present requirements. In a growing town such as that, the department will be justified in looking to the future.


George Eulas Foster: This is at the junction of the Grand Trunk Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.
Oshawa public building, $21,500.


Charles Smith Hyman: There will be another vote required to complete this.


George Eulas Foster: What will that cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: A total of $31,000, including the furniture and letter boxes, &c. The postal revenue is $8,329. the custom duties $37,458, and the population, 3,494.
Ottawa departmental buildings-steel drawers and roller shelves, &c., $25,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: That is the usual vote for the replacing of the old wooden drawers gradually with steel drawers, so as to make the buildings as fireproof as possible.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: Are tenders called for?


Charles Smith Hyman: There are only four or five firms making them and they are all asked to tender.


George Taylor: Who is supplying these ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The Eclipse Furniture Company of Ottawa, the Office Specialty Company, the Cabinet Company of Gaii-anoque and a firm in Montreal.


Albert Edward Kemp: What is the advantage in this?


Charles Smith Hyman: As the old wooden shelving becomes worn out we are putting In model shelving and drawers.


Albert Edward Kemp: They are not fireproof?


Charles Smith Hyman: No doubt, but they are very much less liable to combustion than the wooden ones.


George Eulas Foster: ! How much was spent on that last year ?
Mr. HYMAN, From 1st of July to 31st of December, $31,000


George Eulas Foster: To whom was it paid ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have not the details, but it was distributed among these four firms.


George Eulas Foster: Is there any difference in their prices ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I am advised that the prices are virtually the same for similar

Ottawa public building-new coal shed, $10,000.


George Eulas Foster: Where is that to be situated ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No decision has been reached yet. We have now the coal-shed on the Canal basin, but the Department of Railways and Canals, who control that basin are continually asking the department for the removal of the building. It lias storage room of only 2.500 tons. We rent another shed which holds 3,000 tons. It is not easy to find a site for a coal-shed near at hand, and we do not want to go too far on account of the cost of haulage.


Andrew B. Ingram: From whom does the department rent this coal-shed, and for what rental ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 
Albert Edward Kemp: What are these improvements ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is intended to replace the present banisters in the main lobby with granite and to renew the risers. Then there will be the dressing down and re-rubbing of the stone work of the lobby. The skylights will be repaired, a certain amount of painting done and the leaded windows in different parts of the House will be repaired.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Might I suggest to the minister, at the same time, to investigate the ventilation of this chamber and lobbies. I believe it would be wonderfully improved if proper men took it in hand.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have heard no serious complaint. Of course, the building not being exactly modern in construction, it is somewhat difficult to ventilate it properly. Any suggestions that the hon. gentleman can give me, I shall be glad to receive.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If the hon. minister will talk the matter over with members on either side of the House, I think he will understand that the ventilation is not what it ought to be. And if he will further investigate the conduits through which, as I understand, air is brought in from the side of the hill and that are covered with moss, and I might say filth, I think he will find it necessary to make some improvements.


Charles Smith Hyman: I understood that the air came from the top of the building and reached us as pure as possible.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I am very glad that we have not had so much ventilation as we had last session. I was almost obliged to threaten some officials of the House with dire punishment if they did not cease opening the ventilators behind us, almost destroying our health by subjecting us to draughts. I say, I am glad that has not been done, and I warn the minister that I will not submit to it and that there will be a rebellion


Mr. A. JOHNSTON.: Order.
Mr. HENDERSON

if it is attempted ;
and the hon. gentleman who called ' order ' may as well understand that we will rule the ventilators on this side, and they can do as they like about those on that side.


Charles Smith Hyman: I shall be glad to carry out the ideas of the hon. gentleman as far as possible. But it will be easily understood that when some gentlemen come to me and complain that the room is too warm and others a moment later complain that it is too cold, it is somewhat difficult to manage the ventilators to suit all.


David Henderson: No doubt we have to submit to some extra heat, but I prefer that to having the windows thrown open, perhaps without a moment's warning, letting in a draught that cannot but injure the health of those in the chamber. This used to occur at six o'clock, and, if a member remained in his place a few minutes after six, lie was subjected to a draught which would give him a severe cold in a minute or two.
I trust that the officers have learned a better way to ventilate the House, or that they will at least warn the members to retire before they open the windows.


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course, the ventilation is more pressing during the warmer weather. And, of course, advantage is taken of the recess at six o'clock to ventilate the chamber. But the officials should at least wait a few minutes until members have left the chamber before they open the ventilators. If the hon. gentleman will call my attention to any difficulty that may arise, I shall be glad to remedy it if I can.


William Foster Cockshutt: Does the minister think that the amount here asked for is sufficient to do the work about this building that should be done in the near future. It seems to me to have become pretty dreary along these corridors. I used to think of the House of Commons as one of the places we read about-a sort of earthly paradise. But, walking along these corridors, I find the place not at all what I expected to find it. For my part, I would like to see it brushed up to a considerable extent in the near future. This estimate appears to me to be small in comparison with other votes that are being passed. It seems to me that there is room for a good deal of improvement. While I am on my feet, I desire to say a word-I do not know that it will be strictly in order in the discussion of this item-as to the accommodation afforded to members to carry on their corespondence. The desks in this chamber are narrow, and 1 some of us have no place to write our let-

ters but at the desks. Those who have the advantage of private rooms, of course, are all right, but any oue with considerable correspondence finds it difficult to carry it on in the House. There seems to be no' quarters where quiet prevails.
I do hot know whether this is the proper place to bring it up, but while these estimates are under consideration t think perhaps the hon7 gentleman would consider a more comprehensive plan whereby a little additional room might be obtained where the members could have occasionally the use of a room for half an hour or an hour a day, where they can retire and do a little correspondence without being disturbed, as we are in the House or in the general committee room. The item he asks for is a very small one, and I think members 011 both sides of the House would join in advocating a sufficient vote to put the affairs of the House in a satisfactory condition. I understand that the legislative buildings in Toronto furnish to the members vastly better accommodation than is furnished to members in this House. If that is the case, it appears to me the minister might ask for a more liberal allowance in order to make the members a little more comfortable than they are. It strikes me as reason-ahe that when members are spending so large a portion of their lives here it is but right to make them as comfortable as circumstances will allow.


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. gentleman will note that this vote is for a particular purpose. There are other votes in connection with buildings, there is also a general vote in the estimates for the care and maintenance of all the Ottawa buildings. From that vote each year a considerable amount of money is taken and spent in the direction the hon. gentleman refers to, cleaning, papering, painting and so on. We have here a large pile of public buildings. Some of the corridors are not exactly in the condition I would like to see them, and it is the intention this year to- do something in that line. Numerous improvements can be made from time to time in different parts of the build! ug. So far as accommodation to members is concerned, of course if it is the will of the committee that a larger expenditure should be made for that purpose, speaking solely for myself, I have no objection at all. I think the members of this House are entitled to more comforts than they receive at present, and they should be supplied with rooms where they can do their correspondence. As time goes on that which has always been a necessity becomes more of a necessity than ever. I do not know whether we will be able to put an item in the estimates this year. We have already considerably extended the accommodation, both for private members and for committees, the last few years. We have opened up the top flat both in the Mr. COCKSHUTT.
Senate wing and in the House of Commons wing, and probably all the space in this building that is possible to get is now fully occupied. I think the time has come when there should be better accommodation for the members themselves. I intend, to discuss the matter with my colleagues, and to ascertain whether a vote can be taken to make an enlargement of the building in some other direction. This is not of course a new matter. It has been discussed in every session since I have the honour of sitting in this House. As I say, considerable improvement has been made and more room has been furnished, but we will have to consider the necessity of going .still further.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: While we are on this item I woidd like to make a suggestion about lighting the approaches to this building. In an electrical city like Ottawa I think it would be both wise and easily possible to light up the walks leading to the main building a good deal better than is done at present. The electric lights and the gas lights furnished at present are in a rather crude condition.


Albert Edward Kemp: The minister mentioned about going over the rooms from year to year. I do not know whether it is by design or- carelessness, but I certainly think that the members of the opposition are deserving of better quarters than they now receive in room No. 6.


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand that two years ago, during recess* No. 6 was done over. Still I shall be very glad to do whatever is required there. As regards lighting, there is a vote now in the estimates for the purpose of improving the lighting. 'The matter is being attended to by the department. I will try and devise some means both of increasing the light and making a better appearance.


Mr. BARR.: I am glad this subject has come up. I -was rather surprised when I came to this House to find that the members were so poorly housed. They have indeed very poor accommodation, in fact almost none at all. In Toronto the members are very much better accommodated ; no doubt the Toronto house is more modern and is provided with more conveniences. The quarters provided tor the opposition in this House are certainly very inadequate. We are shut up in a little room with only three easy chairs in it for sixty or seventy members. It does seem to me that we deserve a little better accommodation than that. Even the Speaker's quarters here are poor compared with those afforded in Toronto. It would be well worth while to consider whether the Speaker's quarters might not be moved outside of this building and thereby afford so much more accommodation for private members. We

have to pass four, six and seven months of our time in this House, and, I think, we deserve more accommodation, and some place where we can do our correspondence without being interrupted.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand that some measurements are being taken around this building now ; is that with a view of enlarging the building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I do mot think any measurements are being taken with a view of enlarging the building. Certain levels are being taken in connection with the Georgian bay canal survey. The matter has been discussed a number of times in the House, and a number of schemes have been submitted. I hope to be able to convince my colleagues that the time has come for the necessary enlargement of the quarters for members. There has been a scheme to have an extension from the present quarters occupied by the Speaker out to a line drawn from the building running north and south. That would provide a considerable number of quarters. The matter is under discussion at the present time. I do not know whether I will be able to include a vote for that this year, but I have taken the matter up and I am endeavouring to impress upon my colleagues the necessity for such an addition.


David Henderson: JVhile speaking of inconveniences in and around the House, 1 desire to draw attention to another matter to which I think I have never heard any reference made in this House. I refer to the character of the desks we have in this chamber. When the model for this desk was made 1 do not know. I think it must have been somewhere back about the time of Adam because it is something very ancient. 1 cannot conceive why it ever entered into the mind of the man who had charge of the furnishing of this chamber to put in desks with sloping covers. Why we cannot have a desk with a flat top on which we can place a book and know that it will not slide off and tumble on the floor is something that I cannot understand. These sloping desks are responsible for more profanity in this chamber than anything else I can conceive of. I believe that if a careful estimate were made of the books of reference from the library, the binding of which is practically destroyed from year to year by their sliding off the desks on the floor, there would be sufficient money saved in the course of a few years to put in desks properly constructed. There would not only be a saving in money but I need not tell hon. members of this House what a terrible nuisance would be avoided. An hon. member may get up to speak. He requires to have several volumes before him, probably copies of ' Hansard,' sessional reports of various kinds, or perhaps nothing more than sheets of paper. He lays them on his desk 50	,
but the first thing he knows they are at his feet on the carpet. It is a terrible nuisance but it is one of those things that can be remedied and if it does cost a little money I think it would be worth while to make the change which I suggest. I wonder that this matter has not received the attention of the Minister of Public Works before this time or whoever has charge of this building. I am quite in earnest in what I say. I am not talking for talking's sake. If this improvement can be made it will be one which will be appreciated' by every hon. member of this House. I see no advantage whatever in a desk with a sloping cover. I think we could all write on a flat topped desk just as well as we can on one that has a sloping cover. I invite the hon. minister's -attention to the matter and I feel sure that he will find some way out of the difficulty and that before long we will be provided with more modern furniture and something that will not cause hon. members to reflect in such very strong language on the neglect of the government as I am sure many hon. members are obliged to do.
ilr. McINTYRE. Mr. Chairman, there have been a good many objections taken in regard to various points in connection with the accommodation in this House, and I do not wish to add to the number, but I do wish to express my sympathy with some of the points raised. As a new member I have not felt pleased or satisfied with the amount of accommodation given in various ways in rooms for correspondence. I have particularly felt the absence of a good strong light in this House and think that if changes were made in the desks it would certainly add to the convenience of members and by making them of a light colour they might reflect the light rather than absorb it. My strongest feeling of sympathy goes out to the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) in regard to what he said on the suo-ject of draughts. The ventilation is not good and I suppose the lack of ventilation has caused those who are responsible to endeavour to supply it in some other way. During the evenings that I spent here in the earlier part of the session, I was conscious of the existence of strong draughts. I made various excursions upstairs to find out where they came from. I did not succeed in finding out but I was still conscious of the draught and of the results after leaving the House. At the present time I am conscious of a strong draught which apparently comes from this opening behind me. After I sit here I frequently have an attack of neuralgia and I sympathize very much with the hon. member for Halton if he has suffered in this way. I hope the ventilation may be improved in such a way as to do away with these draughts.


Andrew B. Ingram: My hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) has spoken about books falling off the desks. One reason why books



fall off the desks so much is that the index to the ' Hansard ' has been changed and it has been changed for the worse. I wish to enter my strong protest against the system of indexing the ' Hansard ' that we now have. An hon. member may have four out of the five volumes and yet he is obliged to send to the library for the fifth volume to get the complete index. I hope that the committee in charge of the debates will revert to the old style of index so that when a member takes up a volume of ' Hansard ' and looks over the index he will find what he wants.


George Eulas Foster: That is as it should be.
* Mr. INGRAM. It is the worst system of indexing We have ever had in this House since I have been a member of it, and the sooner it is changed the better. Here are five volumes of the ' Hansard ' of last session. You may send for four of them and then you are obliged to send for the fifth in order to get the complete index. I do not know who advised the change but whoever did was very ill-advised.


Charles Smith Hyman: That is a matter which is under the control of the Debates Committee, but I will see that the hon. gentleman's remarks as reported in ' Hansard ' are forwarded to the committee. As far as the question of desks is concerned, I have never heard a complaint of that kind made before. I have had several books fail from the desk but I have always found other reasons for getting rid of any profanity without taking advantage of that particular one. If any hon. gentlemen would like their desks made in the way which the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) suggests I shall be very glad to have it done. It is not necessary that they should all be changed. If my hon. friend from Halton desires his desk made in that way I will have it done right away.


David Henderson: That is the first promise I have ever received from the government and I shall be most happy to accept the offer. I will not then be able to say that the government never did anything for me.
Ottawa public buildings-pavement on Wellington street opposite buildings, $35,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: Does the government keep the street in repairs?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is part of the undertaking of the government to keep that street in repair. There is no contract for the work yet. It is proposed to advertise for a contract and it is proposed to adopt the specifications that the city has adopted for pavements connected with that street.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does that include the pavements on both sides of the street?


Charles Smith Hyman: This is the roadway between the two sidewalks.


Andrew B. Ingram: 


Albert Edward Kemp: Do you propose to pave it with asphalt?


Charles Smith Hyman: There has been no decision arrived at as to whether it will be paved with asphalt or with some other kind of pavement. I understand that some of the streets connecting with this one are paved with bitulithic and some with asphalt.


George Eulas Foster: What is the present roadway?	.


Charles Smith Hyman: Part of it is paved with old blocks which are in a very dilapidated condition and the other part is a macadam roadway.


Andrew B. Ingram: This includes the pavement between the walks? Does the government not keep up the walk on this side of Wellington street?


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand the owners on the other side keep up the walk but the government keep up the walk on this side.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is it just proposed to pave the part of the street facing the government property and not beyond?


Charles Smith Hyman: It starts with government property and ends with government property.


David Henderson: I would ask as a matter partly of curiosity what it costs the country to keep up the four public buildings in Ottawa ? I have heard it said that it costs $100,000 a year. I do not find fault with the amount, but I should like to know what the cost Is ?


Charles Smith Hyman: There is a vote in the estimates for that particular item and I would be very glad to give full information when that item is reached.


Albert Edward Kemp: I understand that not only this season but in other seasons serious accidents have occurred on the sidewalk at the gate opposite the main entrance to this building owing to the sharp decline at that point not being covered with sand or ashes.


Charles Smith Hyman: It is supposed to be, but several times I have noticed that it was not covered with sand I have called the attention of the architects and had it attended to.


Mr. CLARE.: I notice that part of this item is a revote and that the item has been increased by $7,000 or $8,000. How is this work to be done ? Have you had any tenders ?


Charles Smith Hyman: When an estimate is prepared it is not always necessary to take a vote for the full, amount of the expenditure. This was in the supplementaries last year and it is not intended to vote the whole amount this year. This $35,000 is supposed to cover the total estimated expenditure. Of course $28,000 of that can be spent before the first of June and the balance after the commencement of the next fiscal year.

Ottawa post office-restoration of burned building, and addition of new story, $80,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: When did the fire take place in that building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: January 4, 1904.


Albert Edward Kemp: Over a year ago ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


Albert Edward Kemp: How is it that it has taken so long to repair the building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is owing to the character of the work. The hon. gentleman may have observed the great amount of stone cutting that is involved as the character of the work in the old building is being continued in the new story. The building is not only being repaired but a new story is beiug added, and the roof is of a new character. Everything is being done to hasten the work. The post office and customs departments are pressing this department and the work is being pushed forward.


Albert Edward Kemp: The work was not started until long after the fire.


Charles Smith Hyman: All the debris had first to be cleaned out. A great deal of stone cutting had to be done before the laying was commenced. The work was commenced almost immediately. I remember bringing in a supplementary for this last year.


Mr. KAN  CASTER@: Why is it that we see so much Cleveland stone used in this building instead of Canadian 1


Charles Smith Hyman: Simply because whoever constructed the building in the first place thought it proper to have Cleveland stone, and the same kind of stone has had to be employed in the extension of the building.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Could the building not be repaired without going to Cleveland to get stone and still retain its character 1


Charles Smith Hyman: It is not possible to get stone to work in harmoniously with this in Canada.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: We have all kinds of stone in Canada.


Charles Smith Hyman: In all buildings now being erected in Canada provision is made for the use of Canadian stone, but the appearance of this building would have been spoiled by using a different stone.


Richard Blain: Is this being done by day labour ?


Charles Smith Hyman: By day labour.


Richard Blain: What is the total cost ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The estimated cost is


Richard Blain: That is very much more than was stated in the first place. I suppose the extra story accounts for the increased expenditure ?
50i


Albert Edward Kemp: How many stories will there be 1


Charles Smith Hyman: Practically four stories and the basement, two additional stories. The old building really had no top story, as owing to the way in which the roof was made it was impossible to use the top story.


Albert Edward Kemp: It seems to me to be an extravagant piece of business. It is such a small area. I do not understand the transaction at all, it is so slow and so expensive.


Charles Smith Hyman: In the first place the work to be done in the cutting and laying of the stone only amounts to $64,000. A great proportion of the expenditure is for the fittings for the building. Steel and iron work will cost $29,000, a new vault will cost $9,000, roofing $5,000, an elevator $6,000, the plastering and carpenter work is estimated to cost $10,000. The building has to be painted and glazed, a new clock is necessary, and then there is the heating, furnishings and fittings for the building.


Mr. FOWLER.: What did the building cost in the first place ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Three hundred and some odd thousand dollars.


Andrew B. Ingram: From time to time we have voted money renewing furniture; I would like to know what becomes of the old furniture ?


Charles Smith Hyman: A considerable amount of renewal comes from the wearing out of furniture. In the case of this building the furniture was all destroyed by Are.


Andrew B. Ingram: In this building, desks have been discarded which many men would be glad to get for use in their offices in the building, and no one knows what becomes of these desks. Some of these are very good and some account should be taken of them.


Charles Smith Hyman: The deputy informs me that some four or five years ago there was a large collection of disused furniture on hand and a sale of it was held.


George Eulas Foster: Did it realize much ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I think two or three hundred dollars.


Andrew B. Ingram: Some three or four years ago I wanted to get a table which I thought would do very well for one of the rooms ; but the table disappeared as well as some of the other furniture in the same way. If the furniture is disposed of, it is just as well that the country should get the benefit of it.


Charles Smith Hyman: I have not heard any complaint of this kind before. The hon. gentleman knows that if my attention were called to anything of the kind, I would be glad to have it inquired into.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the hon. gentleman would inquire a little more closely, he would find out enough to satisfy him.


Charles Smith Hyman: If the hon. gentleman as a member of the House has any reason to make that insinuation, I think he should let me have the knowledge which he possesses.


Andrew B. Ingram: I merely point out that it would be well for the hon. minister to make some inquiries.
Ottawa, Government Printing Bureau-to replace the present wooden root by a fireproof roof and raise the walls for one additional story on main building and two additional stories on annex, $30,000.


John Barr: Will this finish the work ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is practically intended to finish it, but there will be a small supplementary vote required.


Albert Edward Kemp: What is the object of doing this ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The trouble in the Printing Bureau is that the work there has increased very greatly, and the present accommodation is not sufficient. I am simply providing this addition in response to the request of the Secretary of State, who has charge of the Printing Bureau.


John Barr: Is this work done by day labour ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No, by contract.


Albert Edward Kemp: Does the Secretary of State say that when this improvement is made we shall get the reports of the different departments more promptly ?


William Paterson: We will get them more quickly.


Albert Edward Kemp: But we will not get them promptly, as we would from an ordinary printer.


William Paterson: The Secretary of State has been complaining that the reason he cannot get out the reports more quickly is the lack of accommodation in the Printing Bureau.


Edward Cochrane: I have been informed that the trouble is that the ministers themselves do not get the reports in the Printing Bureau early enough. The Minister of Customs used to find fault with the amount of money expended by a previous government for printing done outside the Bureau, and the country was led to believe that when these hon. gentlemen came in, the Printing Bureau would do all the work. I think I am safe in saying that several thousand dollars are paid for printing outside the Bureau. The Minister of Agriculture especially gets a large subvention for a paper -he does not own the paper, of course, but his brother has stock in it. The Minister of Customs does not look as serious as I
Mr. HYMAN
have seen him on this side of the House. He is getting old like myself, and he will have to answer.


William Paterson: You had better be careful, then.


Edward Cochrane: I think I stand as good a chance of getting through the pearly gates as he does. I saw to-day in the editorial columns of a paper a statement of the enormous sums paid for printing outside the Bureau, and I think the attention of the minister who has control of the matter should be drawn seriously to the fact. We have a Printing Bureau, and we are paying large sums of money for its extension, and I am willing to do it ; but if we have a Printing Bureau at all, we should have one capable of doing the work, instead of paying enormous sums to Grit sheets for advertising when they are not doing the *work.


David Henderson: I think that the fund to which the hon. member for East Northumberland (Mr. Cochrane) refers is what was familiarly known as the reptile fund, which is being continued by the present government. Hon. gentlemen opposite made serious complaints about it prior to 1896, but I fear that this reptile fund is growing very rapidly. I hope that when the Printing Bureau is extended, this fund will be somewhat reduced. I have no doubt that the Minister of Customs is quite familiar with the fund, because I have no doubt that he often used the terms along with the hon. gentleman who formerly sat in the next seat to him, but who has been elevated to the Senate. I see the hon. gentleman smiling as if he enjoyed these reminiscences of olden times. It is certainly very pleasant to us all to know that bygone days are not forgotten.


William Paterson: I can only say, so far as this item is concerned, that I do not remember finding fault particularly with the printing in days gone by. It did happen occasionally that there were matters which I thought might be improved, and I intimated it in as gentle a manner and in as subdued tones as I could command ; but it was not in reference to the printing. As to the reptile press, I think I have seen that term somewhere, but I am not sure that I ever used it. I do not feel that I have much to reproach myself with in regard to the criticisms I offered in days gone by. Things were not managed then, in my judgment, as well as they are now. There is perhaps room for improvement on the part of some of us, and it would certainly be a great improvement if we could get our reports out more rapidly. I may say for the hon. Secretary of State that I know that he has made representations to his colleagues time and again as to the necessity of enlarged accommodation for the Printing Bureau. I believe he bends every

energy to the work of getting out the reports. Some of them have had to be printed in outside offices ; but this has been done on terms that have met the approval of those who are competent to judge what is fair and right in such matters.


Edward Cochrane: Do you have to send them to Montreal ?


William Paterson: I think there is a complete supervision with reference to that matter.


David Henderson: Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that there was not as good a supervision over that whole matter prior to 1896 ? We have no evidence beyond the statement of the hon. gentleman, given at random, that any improvement has been made. But we know there is a much larger reptile fund than formerly, and whoever has charge of the fund had better give more attention to it and see that the money is not wasted. One or two evenings ago I was very much surprised to read the long list of moneys paid newspapers supporting the government. I did not notice any, or scarcely any. sum paid to any newspaper not supporting the government. I suppose that is why it is called the reptile fund. I can see no necessity for scattering this money all over the country, when we have a Printing Bureau at Ottawa and a large staff of men to do the work.


Andrew B. Ingram: I might point out to the Minister of Customs that previous to 1890 the reptile press was glad to get written manuscript, but under the new order of things the manuscript must be type written. The reptile press must be getting very independent, and if they received fewer favours might be glad to take written manuscript. I have the authority of the Secretary of State for what I am saying.


Albert Edward Kemp: It would be more satisfactory if the Minister of Customs could assure the committee that after this large amount which he asks us to vote is expended on the Printing Bureau, we will be able to have work done there as rapidly and thoroughly as in an ordinary printing office. We have the statement of the Minister of Agriculture that he has had manuscript regarding the census lying in that Bureau over a year waiting to be printed. That is certainly not business like, and I cannot understand why the government does not have things put in proper shape in that Bureau. Why does not the Minister of Customs tell the House that the government will put this Printing Bureau into proper shape, so that it may be able to turn out work as quickly and as well as it can be turned out by other offices ? If manuscript regarding the census has been lying there over a year, no doubt other manuscript has had the same fate. It is quite evident that the whole thing is not managed as it should be, and I would strongly urge that it should
be looked into more carefully, and that the minister should give us a more definite statement than he is now able to do.
Peterborough Armoury, $30,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The Prince of Wales Canadian Dragoons, ' C ' Squadron, have their headquarters at Peterborough, and also the 57th Regiment of Peterborough Rangers, comprising eight companies. It is intended to construct an armoury there the same as at Chatham. The total cost, including heating, wiring, fittings, sidewalks and contingencies, is estimated at $65,000.


George William Fowler: Has the land been bought?


Charles Smith Hyman: It has not, but the department are in negotiations with the city to acquire a piece of land, and also an adjacent piece which can he used for parade purposes.


George William Fowler: Does it belong to the
city ?


Charles Smith Hyman: A part does, but the undertaking is that the city shall acquire all this land and* we shall buy it from it.
St. Catharines drill hall, $45,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: When will this be erected ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The time in the contract is the 20th October, 1905, and it is understood it will be completed then.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: How much has been expended already ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The total expenditure is $51,800. There is an estimate for heating and fitting, wiring, sidewalks and contingencies.


George William Fowler: What is the total cost ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The contract is for $79,829. The 2nd Dragoons are there. It is the special headquarters of ' A ' Squadron, also the 2nd Brigade of Field Artillery and the St. Catharines Regiment-three different units which require increased accommodation.
St. Mary's public building, $15,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The postal revenue is $7,051; the customs, $20,497 ; and the population, 3,884.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where does the department propose to build this post office ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No decision has been arrived at. The plan of St. Mary's is in my office, and a number of lots are marked off on it which can be obtained. When the prices are had, a decision will be given.


Richard Blain: When will the building be commenced ?


Charles Smith Hyman: As soon as it is possible to obtain a site.


Richard Blain: What will be the total cost?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is estimated the total will be $30,000. The building itself will cost $21,000.


George Eulas Foster: What rentals are paid now ?


Charles Smith Hyman: $240 and $340.
Sandwich public building, $15,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: The population is 1,450 and the postal revenue $955. There is no customs revenue.


George Eulas Foster: How much do you propose to spend ?
Mr. HYiMAN. We propose to expend there about $17,000. Sandwich is the county-town of Essex, and besides, is immediately opposite the city of Detroit. We may expend a few dollars more on the elevation of. the building than we otherwise would.


Mr. BE  A IN@: Is it the policy of the department always to purchase a site for a post office building ?


Charles Smith Hyman: During the course" of these estimates that matter has come up quite often. Municipalities sometimes offer the government a site. Of course, where the site offered is a proper one, we accept it.


Richard Blain: That applies to armouries as well ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: What are the rentals now paid by the government in Sandwich.


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: The position of Sandwich is peculiar. It adjoins the city of Windsor and Windsor has a very considerable revenue.


George Eulas Foster: Not post office revenue ?


William Mulock: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: How much ?


William Mulock: Over $30,000. In addition it is an exchange office with the United States, and whilst a large part of the revenue that might in one sense be attributable to Sandwich goes to Windsor, there is a great deal of distributing work done at Sandwich for which no credit appears in the revenue.


George Eulas Foster: How does that affect the question ?


William Mulock: The hon. gentleman asked what the revenue was. I do not know what the revenue of Sandwich is as shown by the books, but these are adjoining towns rather running into each other, with suburbs, I believe, connecting.


George Eulas Foster: They generally do.


William Mulock: I do not know to what the point of that remark may be, but 4here are many towns whose suburbs Mr. BLAIN.
do not connect with the suburbs of other towns.


George Eulas Foster: Suburbs generally connect somewhere.


William Mulock: I understand that there is a continuous suburb between these towns.


George Eulas Foster: Sandwich is a sort of double suburb ?


William Mulock: The business between the two is so divided that a large part of the revenue inures to Windsor, while the incoming business, from which no revenue is derived is distributed from Sandwich, that is Sandwich has to do a great deal of work for revenue is earned but is credited to Sandwich.


George Eulas Foster: Is seems a little involved.


William Mulock: I would be glad to make it plainer. Sometimes, it happens that people receive their letters through one post office, but send their letters out by another. In the present case there are letter-boxes along the route between Sandwich and Windsor, and as Windsor is a railway point and a point of distribution, the collectors along the route take the letters to Windsor, and the people along the route, as a rule purchase their stamps at Windsor and so Windsor is credited with a relatively large revenue.


George Eulas Foster: That's not fair of Windsor, is it ?


William Mulock: Sandwich, at all events does not get credit for the business it does because of the circumstances I have mentioned. Nevertheless, letters are distributed through Sandwich.


George Eulas Foster: Ate there two distribution ends ?


William Mulock: Yes, Windsor and Sandwich.


George Eulas Foster: Which is the biggest end ?


William Mulock: I do not know what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster>
_ means.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. gentleman (Sir William Mulock) is trying to argue that Sandwich does more business than the returns show.


William Mulock: I say that a part of the revenue which, under other circumstances would appear. to the credit of Sandwich goes to Windsor on account of the proximity of the two places.


George William Fowler: It seems to me that the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) has made a strong argument against this grant. Letters, it appears, instead of being mailed at Sandwich are mailed at Windsor.
If the business is done at Windsor that is

the Best reason in the world why you should not have an expensive post office at Sandwich. After listening to the lucid argument of the Postmaster General I think this item should he dropped.
a new stairway on the ground floor-all internal improvements.
Toronto drill hall-additional accommodation for new corps, $40,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: Has this work Been com-


Mr.   POSTER@: At least it should be diminished by a few dollars. Well give us the present rentals at Sandwich anyhow.


Charles Smith Hyman: The rental is paid directly by the postmaster.
Simcoe public building, $15,000.


George Eulas Foster: What is the population of Simcoe, and what are the revenues ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The population is 2,627, the post office revenue $6,351, and customs $35,077.


George Eulas Foster: What does the minister propose to expend there ?


Charles Smith Hyman: On the building itself, $21,000 ; heating, $2,000 ; wiring, $750 ; fittings, $3,500 ; and contingencies to make a total of $30,000.
Stratford armoury, $47,000.


George William Fowler: Has the lot been selected ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The hon. member for North Perth (Mr. MacLaren) will know the properties-the Moore property, the Myers property and the Burke property. The question of site is not entirely settled.


George William Fowler: What does the minister expect to pay for the land ?
iMr. HYMAN. In the neighbourhood of


George William Fowler: How big is the site ?


Charles Smith Hyman: The lots have a frontage of 104 feet, 20 feet and 36 feet-sufficient for the whole size of the building.
Toronto customs house-alterations and additions, $15,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: This is all a revote.


Albert Edward Kemp: Why was not the work done last year ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Some question arose as to the method in which this money should be expended. We have now arrived at a decision, the plans and specifications are ready, and we will proceed. These alterations are to be done on the main building of the custom house. In the first place, there is a change in the basement; then there is certain underpinning work, then on the ground floor a new staircase is to be built, improvements made on the front of the building, certain wooden and glass partitions have to be moved, something has to be done on the arches, laying a tile floor, the old windows to be taken out and new ones put in so as to give more light, a certain number of partitions are to be removed,
menced yet?


Charles Smith Hyman: There are practically two works comprised under this vote, and I shall have to ask in the supplementary estimates for a considerably larger vote. Plans are all in the hands of the printers, and we shall proceed immediately with the work of raising the armoury on one side and making it deeper. In addition to that, it is necessary to provide very much more accommodation, practically the old drill hall will have to be enlarged. This is the building known as the armoury. It is contemplated to have nearly as much space in the new building as there is in the old building, it will nearly double the area, but the cost will not be as great as in the old building, because we can take advantage of one of the walls and there will not be the same amount of excavation. The building will be lengthened to the east. It is all on government ground that we own there now.


Albert Edward Kemp: Why has this work not been done before ? The Minister of Public Works last year told us that the reason the work was not proceeded with was because of the severe weather in the winter time. Then why did not the minster proceed with that work in the summer? Now I want to know if the government are really sincere in their promise to go on now. From year to year this estimate has been put in here, and nothing has been done whatever and all the time the different corps in Toronto are cramped for want of space; indeed I think they are worse off than in any other part of Canada.


Charles Smith Hyman: The plans for the expenditure on the armoury itself are in the hands of the printers at this moment, and that work will be proceeded with at once. As soon as the specifications are ready we will advertise for tenders, and contracts will be entered into. So far as the larger work is concerned, it will take some time to prepare the plans and specifications.
Mr. MAiCHONELL. I desire to take advantage of this occasion to call the attention of the minister to the statement his predecessor made last year in discussing this matter, on March 9. Referring to the same matter the minister said :
The plans are under consideration, and I think in a few days they will be decided upon.
' A few days ' have gone by, nearly a whole year, and nothing has been done. I can assure the minister that the people of Toronto are a good deal dissatisfied. As my hon. friend from East Toronto (Mr. Kemp) has said, the militia has not anything

like adequate accommodation for their quarters. As the minister may have heard, there has been considerable difficulty among some of the battalions, and some unfortunate unpleasantness has occurred just because of the cramped condition. The various corps endeavour to get proper accommodation, and in doing so encroach upon other regiments. Perhaps the minister is not to blame for what has occurred in the past, but I would urge upon him the wisdom and necessity of having this matter undertaken as soon as possible, and completed as soon as possible.
Toronto examining warehouse-addition to, $12,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: That is under contract.


Mr. MAODONICLL.: I would like to ask the minster if it is the intention of the government to build a new customs warehouse at Toronto, and also if it is the intention of the government to build a new post office at Toronto. I see no appropriation in the present estimates for either of those works, though possibly the minister may bring down supplementary estimates for that purpose. However, I desire to call his attention to a statement in the Toronto ' Globe ' of October 13, shortly before the then pending elections, under the heading of ' New post office for Toronto-A great building adjacent to the union station-customs warehouse, too-charges rendered necessary by railway expropriation.' Then it proceeds to say :
The application of the Grand Trunk Railway Company for an order to expropriate that part of the city of Toronto lying south of Front street, between the custom house on the east and York Street on the west, for a union passenger terminal station and other purposes, came before the Railway Commission to-day. During the discussion an important announcement was made as to what the Dominion government purposed to do in the city of Toronto. The present examining warehouse will be taken over for railway purposes, and in lieu thereof the government will build a large new examining warehouse west of the custom house on the south side of Front street. West of the examining warehouse a magnificent new general post office will be erected.
Then the article proceeds to quote Mr. Ross, superintendent of post offices. He stated :
Sir William Mulock, the Postmaster General, was desirous that such buildings would be erected as would meet the growing needs of the most important city in the Dominion from a postal standpoint. The present postal revenue of the city of Toronto is $1,000,000 per annum, and an annual expansion of from $60,000 to $100,000 had been the record during the past few years.
In the same issue of the paper appears an editorial under the heading ' The new post office and custom house':
With characteristic farsightedness Sir William Mulock has been laying his plans for perfecting the post office system of this city.


Angus Claude Macdonell: It has become the greatest revenue producing point, and more mail matter is handled here than at any other place in the Dominion.
The article commenced in that way and it concludes :
The government is to be heartily congratulated on its recognition of the needs and growth of Toronto.
This was all before the elections. We see a different aspect of affairs at the present time. In examining the estimates before the House can we see any appropriations for the purposes that were indicated in this issue of the ' Globe ' by the lion. Postmaster General ? I would like to ask the hon. minister if it is his intention to put into the supplementary estimates appropriations for these works that are spoken of in this manner in this paper ?


William Mulock: Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. Macdonell) desire to know what the policy of the Post Office Department is in connection with the proposed postal station near the contemplated Union statin ?


Angus Claude Macdonell: A new post office for Toronto-not a branch.


William Mulock: 
Angus Claude Macdonell: The Postmaster General has stated what his advice is. I would like to know whether the government is going to follow his advice. If that is his advice is the government going to follow his advice and are we going to have a new post office and custom house in Toronto as stated in the paper to which I have referred, the statement being made therein on his own authority ?	.


William Mulock: I do not know that it has been made on my own authority. I did not see the article before it was published. But, it quite represents what I would like and what I hope for. I expressed myself somewhat in that way at the Hallway Commission but our action depends somewhat on the action of the railway companies. The present Union station is west of York street and before the conflagration, not anticipating their moving their site, we had made some progress in acquiring a site for a postal station on the south-east corner of York and Front streets. That property was owned by the city but leased to the Canadian Pacific Railway and we had made arrangements with the city to convey that property to us for a figure that had been spoken of. The transfer had been practically arranged, and if it had not been for the conflagration we probably would at the present moment have been erecting our building on that land. Since then the idea has originated of abandoning the Union station at the west side of York street and building a new one easterly of York street extending to Bay street. If the railway companies carry out that policy and establish a union station coming down to Bay street then it is the policy of the Post Office Department to erect, if we can do so, if the government will agree to it and I think they will-I have no reason to doubt that they will-our postal station on the south-east corner of Bay and Front streets. If the railway companies locate the station easterly of York street then our policy is to locate our post office at the south-east corner of Bay and Front streets but we cannot conclude anything until the railway companies determine their course.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Will that new building be a general post office ?


William Mulock: Yes, it will do all the business of a post office but it will not mean that we abandon the one at the head of Toronto street. It will be as much a general post office as the other.


Angus Claude Macdonell: There will be no new general post office on the present site ?


William Mulock: Where V


Angus Claude Macdonell: At the head of Toronto street.


William Mulock: No.


George William Fowler: Do I understand the hon. minister to say that the railway companies propose to take the site where the examining warehouse now is ?


William Mulock: I think that is part of their scheme. Is my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) familiar with the situation of Toronto ?


George William Fowler: Yes.


William Mulock: Well then he will remember that the custom house is composed of two buildings, one the custom house itself on the south-west corner of Yonge and Front streets. They do not disturb that but southerly of that and adjoining the tracks is. what we call the examining warehouse and I think they want to enlarge their strip of land so as to run their tracks through there.


George William Fowler: Do you think it is good policy to spend $12,00b on additions to that building ?


William Mulock: It has all been stopped.


George William Fowler: But I see it in the estimates.


Charles Smith Hyman: Of course, because the contract was let long before there was any idea of touching this building at all. The very moment the department had any notification of the intention of the railway companies the work was stopped. In any case if the railways took this building they would be required to pay the government for any work that has been done on the building even if we were to go ahead and complete the building. This contract has been stopped. There is only an expenditure requisite to finish the work of some $6,000. The question is now before the department as to whether it wil not be better to spend about half of that sum, about $3,000, to complete this building temporarily so that it can be used. At the present time they can make no use of the building whatever and we are now going to make an expenditure of about $3,000. It may be two or three years before the railway companies will actually take possession of the building and in the meantime we will remain in possession. If the railway companies take over the building they will have to pay us its full value. Then, it is the intention to acquire the whole of the land between the present custom house and Bay street. The corner part of it is to be used for the erection of a postal station and another portion will be used for the erection of the examining warehouse. That is the policy of the two departments. It is necessary for the pneumatic tube service and for postal purposes generally that the post office shall be in the immediate vicinity of the station. The policy of the government depends entirely on the action of the railways.


Albert Edward Kemp: The plans which were presented before the Railway Commission involve taking the land between the present custom house and Bay street for the Union station. Now, we are informed by the Postmaster General and the Minister of Public Works that it is the intention that this shall be taken for customs purposes and for the purpose of a sub-post office, so that the whole explanation which we have had is not at all clear. I repeat that this very site which these hon. gentlemen tell us is for the purpose of an examining warehouse, customs house and post office is the very location where it was intended to have the new union station, not west of Bay street.


Charles Smith Hyman: They are taking more property than Bay street are they not ?


Albert Edward Kemp: They are not going west of Bay.


William Mulock: They are going to York street.


Albert Edward Kemp: There is no application.


Charles Smith Hyman: We do not propose taking the whole depth, but the front.


Albert Edward Kemp: I understood they intend to take the whole.


Charles Smith Hyman: They may, but we do not.


Albert Edward Kemp: Why, if this new building is being proceeded with, would you contemplate making this large expenditure ? These improvements were commenced after the fire, but as I understood the' minister some years would elapse before the new building is erected. May I ask the hon. gentleman when this question is to be settled?


Charles Smith Hyman: I have no idea at all. The railways changed their plans. Their original plan was not to take this examining warehouse property from the government, but they found that it was necessary later to do so, because they could not otherwise run their tracks. No decision has yet been arrived at, and in the meantime we thought it better not to increase the examining warehouse, but to make it fit for use.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is it not possible to hurry the matter ? The railways are slow, and the property holders' interests are being sacrificed by the long delay in dealing with the matter. Those who own the land have lost money by the delay. The government are interested ; can they not hurry the matter along ? I would press the necessity of something being done at an early date.


William Mulock: What ?


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not know. I think that with the influence of the government they could do something.


William Mulock: Well what ?


Charles Smith Hyman: 


Albert Edward Kemp: I am not prepared to say offhand what steps could be taken, but surely something could be done by a conference between the four parties who are interested in the matter, the railways, the Railway Commission, the city of Toronto and the property holders.


William Mulock: I noticed a report in the papers yesterday that the Railway Commission, at a recent sitting in Toronto, determined the terms on which the valuation should be made. It is optional, I suppose, with the railway companies to buy the property or not. I do not suppose there is any way in which we can compel them to go on and complete the purchase. They have given notice and it is for them to proceed. It is very unfair for them to lock up this property. I entirely sympathize with the property holders and I think that the people who are interested in the properties there have been very badly used indeed as from the moment notice of expropriation was given, they could not go on and rebuild, yet the railway companies did not complete their purchase and then the lessees who were liable to pay rental and taxes could not rebuild, could not fix locations elsewhere for their business and the whole thing is most unsatisfactory. It is an illustration, I think, of the unsatisfactory condition of the law applicable to the expropriation of lands by railways, and I think it indicates to us that the law requires amendments so that when railways contemplate demoralizing trade by giving notice of expropriation they shall be bound by that and perhaps be considered from that moment the purchasers, subject to the determination of value. Then they could not play fast and loose. The law is very unsatisfactory but it is that way. It lias' been built up in the interests of the railways. They were here. I suppose, when we knew nothing of railway law and it is only now that we are beginning to find the weakness of our railway law. I am not making any reflections on any one or on any government ; we must all take our share of responsibility, but as I said, I think that the railway law with regard to the expropriation of lands is most unsatisfactory and unfair. There should be more mutuality about it, so that once a railway gives notice of expropriation it should be bound from that moment to proceed with the expropriation and purchase.


Albert Edward Kemp: Are they not liable to
damages ?


William Mulock: I see by the newspaper reports that the commission, if they are correctly reported, found that the purchase shall be deemed to have taken place from the time of the notice, -but I believe so far as the press reports are concerned, that they did not decide whether the owners are entitled to compensation for

loss of business. That point was raised, but does not seem to have been determined.


Albert Edward Kemp: If the railway authorities change their minds, what is the position of the property owners ?


William Mulock: That is a point of law ; I do not know. It would be most unfair if they had no redress. At one time there was a clause in the Railway Act saying that a railway company might desist at any time after giving notice of expropriation and arbitration, no matter what progress might have been made. They could at any moment they chose, desist and there have been cases where railway companies have abandoned proceedings after the arbitration has made some progress. Possibly getting the idea that the award was going against them they desired to have new arbitrators to start again. I think that clause of the Act has been taken out, but some years ago it was the law and it was a most unfair provision of the law.


Haughton Lennox: The Postmaster General spoke of the possibility that the railway company would expropriate the examining warehouse. I would like the Postmaster General to state whether the railway company can, as a matter of law, expropriate against the government. The Minister of Public Works referred to it, but I did not think he made it definite one way **r another.


Charles Smith Hyman: I think I was clear. There Is no question of doubt that the railway companies cannot expropriate government property, but I did not suppose that the government could stand in the way of the city of Toronto if they came to a conclusion, and if the railway companies wish to purchase that property for the purpose of an approach to the station it seems to me that we should not adopt a dog in the manger policy. We should negotiate, the railways of course paying us full value for the property. It is a matter entirely for the government to decide whether they would retain the property or not.
Toronto military buildings-barracks for permanent corps to replace property sold to the [DOT]ity, $50,000.


Angus Claude Macdonell: What headway has been made with regard to the erection of this new barracks ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It is a large scheme. The headway so far has been that the requirements of the Militia Department have been furnished to the Department of Public Works and the Public Works Department is at the present engaged in making the necessary plans and specifications for the barracks.


Angus Claude Macdonell: When is it expected that they will commence operations ?


Charles Smith Hyman: It will be necessary to put another vote in the supplementary estimates for the year, and if the committee will allow this vote to pass, by that time I am sure I shall have full information. The hon. gentleman is aware of the negotiations that took place for the sale of one property and the purchase of another.


Mr.   POWLER@: Why was that done ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Largely to meet the wishes of the city of Toronto. It was felt, from the city's standpoint, that it was better to have the barracks for the permanent force in another location somewhat further removed from the city.


Albert Edward Kemp: When does the government have to abandon the present barracks ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I really do not know that part of the arrangement, which was made by the Militia Department and not by the Public Works Department.


Albert Edward Kemp: Unfortunately, the Minister of Militia is not here.


Angus Claude Macdonell: The great reason for haste is the absolute inadequacy of the present barracks.


Charles Smith Hyman: As far as the Public Works Department is concerned, the very moment the money is available we will not lose any time in proceeding with the work.
Toronto post office-land, building, pneumatic plant and machinery, $100,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: What has been done about that ?	4


Charles Smith Hyman: It is intended to have a pneumatic tube system to quicken the service between the railway station and the main post offices. The department are proceeding as fast as they fairly can. The pipe has been bought by contract. It is being manufactured in Glasgow, but it will be a considerable time before it can be delivered. The tenders were for 30,000 feet in Toronto and 8,000 in Montreal at $1.45 per foot. It was bought after public tenders were called for.


Mr.   POWLER@: Can that not be made in this country ?


Charles Smith Hyman: No. I think the lowest Canadian tender was $5 per foot.


Mr.   POSTER@: What is the diameter of the pipe ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Ten inches. The city of Montreal and the city of Toronto are the only places in Canada where the department propose at present to try the system.


Albert Edward Kemp: Where is it in existence in other parts of the world ?


Charles Smith Hyman: In all the large cities of the United States and, I think, also in the larce cities of England.


David Henderson: What will be the rate of speed ?


William Mulock: At least a mile in two minutes.


Albert Edward Kemp: This has nothing to do with the improvements that have recently been discussed ?


Charles Smith Hyman: Yes ; it has to do with them so far, that we cannot determine where the terminal is to be until we know where the station is to be ; but we have ordered the pipes, and are proceeding as rapidly as we can.


George William Fowler: Is there a vessel put in the tube ?


William Mulock: Yes ; a carrier.


Albert Edward Kemp: Are there to be double tubes?


William Mulock: Yes.


Richard Blain: How long does it take now to convey the mail from the post office to the depot ?


William Mulock: I suppose if this were to connect only with the main office, we might not adopt the system ; but Toronto is spreading out for a great distance westward. The Union station is not central, and with trains going and coming at all hours of the day, an hour's delay to a business man in getting his mail is very serious. Even the street railway is a very slow process for conveying the mails from the Union station two or three miles distant.


Andrew B. Ingram: Instead of using your automobiles.


William Mulock: We have tested them and found them a failure.


Albert Edward Kemp: They are out of commission ?


William Mulock: I do not know that they have all been used up but we have tested them and they have been tested elsewhere and been pronounced unworkable.


David Henderson: I understand that the scheme now proposed has passed the experimental stage and the minister has no doubt it will prove a success.


William Mulock: No doubt about it.


George William Fowler: Are the automobiles in working order ?


Charles Smith Hyman: I understand they are pretty well worked out excepting one machine. There were six altogether.
Toronto post office-additional postal station
360,000.


Charles Smith Hyman: That is on 675-7-9-81-83, Young and Charles streets.


Charles Smith Hyman: 


Albert Edward Kemp: Is the Queen street post office complete ?


William Mulock: Yes, it is in operation.
Toronto postal station ' C '-quarters for caretaker, $1,500.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is that the Queen street post office ?


William Mulock: Yes, we are making quarters in the building for the caretaker.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir WILLIAM MULOCK moved the adjournment of the House.


George Eulas Foster: What does the government propose taking up to-morrow ?


William Mulock: The Minister of Public Works thinks there is some understanding between the Minister of Justice and the hon. member for South York about proceeding with the Bill respecting the Railway Commission. When that is disposed of, we shall proceed with supply, public works estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, February 23, 1905. [DOT]