1905-06-06

[Stage Direction]
House proceeded rto consider resolutions reported from Committee of Supply.
Pensions payable on account of Fenian raid, $2,400.
['I regret very much that the department should have seen fit to change the present practice which has been in vogue for the last quarter of a century ; not only in this House but in the provincial parliament as well. Of course in the latter the postage must be paid. The custom is one which is worked, not only to the convenience of members but to the interest of the public. As regards the plea that this occasions trouble to postmasters, I can assure you. Sir, that such is not the case. No member would think of imposing additional trouble on the postmasters if the latter were not willing to do that work. In fact the work in that connection is exceedingly trifling. I hardly think that the Postmaster General understands the position in the country districts or he would not have made the change. All that a postmaster in a rural district has to do is to open the package and place the documents on the counter and let those who call at the office take them. In that way a great deal of useful information can be spread throughout the country and no loss of revenue occasioned. This change will put the members of this House to great inconvenience and deprive the country of those bulletins, because members will not have the time to send out each bulletin separately. It would be impossible for members of this House to do this when, as at present, they have to do so much of their own writing, unlike the practice in some of the local legislatures,\nwhere the members can avail themselves of the staff of sessional clerks for that purpose. Here, however, there is no such staff which members can utilize by dictating their correspondence to shorthand writers and having it typewritten and transmitted through the mails. I hope that the hon. the Postmaster General will consider this matter of sending out packages of official documents and also the suggestion of endeavouring to place members in the position of being able to attend to the wants of then-own constituencies without the great labour, inconvenience and expense now entailed upon them.']
Rt.   H@: I promised yesterday jthn t 1 would give certain information asked for upon the item of pensions on account of the Fenian raid. The details are to be found in the Auditor General's Report, Yol. 1, G-16. In regard to pensions to militiamen on account of the Northwest rebellion, the accounts are to be found in detail in the same volume, same page. As far as I remember, these pensions were granted to some of the men in the force upon the report of the board appointed for that purpose.
My hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster) asked me yesterday about the number of persons naturalized last year. The number is 4,402.


Mr. FOSTER.: In what report is that ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: The details are iu the report of the Secretary of State, page VI. But this information I have received indirectly from the Secretary of State.
I was also asked for some information with regard to another item in the pension list, that is the amounts paid to pensioners in lieu of land. This is such an old item that it is somewhat difficult to get the information ; hut I understand that the amount paid so far has been $8,900. A pensioner gets $19.14 per annum. So far as we can ascertain, there are only two now living.
I was also asked for information about the item in the estimates of $2,000 granted to the Academy of Arts. This amount is paid to the Royal Canadian Academy of Arts, at Toronto.


George Eulas Foster: Then with reference to the issue of patents, in relation to scrip.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say I have not the information yet; I may get it to-day.



Mr. J. BARR (Dufferin).: Whilst we are waiting for the Supply Bill, might I ask the Prime Minister whether he has a copy of that circular from the Post Office Department to lay on the table of the House ?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: Speaking on behalf of the Postmaster General, we have not a copy of the circular to which the hon. gentleman refers, but I may say that circular was sent
out pursuant to regulations of the Post Office Department dealing with the conduct of postmasters generally. The department issued instructions that postmasters must not distribute matter which was sent to them in hulk, as it interfered materially with the collection of revenue, inasmuch as such mail matter would pass through the mails at cheaper rates than it otherwise would. That of course would not apply to a frank, but at the same time the post office authorities have found it necessary to deal with the postmasters on general principles and to instruct them as to their conduct with regard to all mail matter whether franked or stamped. If discretion were allowed to postmasters as to when they should carry out the departmental instructions, we would have endless difficulty and the postmasters would be constantly contravening their instructions in a way which would very materially interfere with the postal revenue. In this particular case the postmaster seems to have received a parcel of something sent by a member of this House. The post office authorities have no information as to what instructions the postmaster received from the sender of the package. However he was doing what was contrary to his instructions in taking the contents of that parcel and distributing them. Under ordinary circumstances if that parcel had been stamped the revenue received from it would be very much less than if the documents had been sent separately and each stamped. It is therefore evident that in the public interest postmasters s'hould not be allowed to follow the practice complained of. If postmasters could exercise their discretion to do or to refuse to do what they are requested, it might lead to complications in regard to the personality of the postmaster and result in postmasters doing what would entail dismissal or severe reprimand from the postal authorities. The post office considers that a frank is merely a substitute for a stamp, and that franked matter is subject to all the regulations which govern stamped matter sent through the mails. The frank is accepted by the authorities as entitling a letter to go forward, but at the same time it carries with it no privilege which stamped mail matter would not carry. I do not think there is any further information to be given, but if my hon. friend desires further explanation I will be glad to ascertain it from the Post Office Department.


Mr. D. HENDERSON.: We are all very glad to hear the statement of the Minister of Agriculture, because we have no desire to put the postmasters of the country in an improper position. I may say that I have been a frequent offender under the rule laid down by the Minister of Agriculture. We receive a great many bulletins, not only those emanating from the Commission on Agriculture and Colonization of the House, but other documents of a character such

as pass through the mails without postage, and I have had no hesitation at any time in putting these up in parcels of from ten to twelve, addressing them to a particular country postmaster, and writing upon them 'parliamentary papers,' and a request to distribute them. I have found the postmasters always willing to hand these out to the farmers, exercising, X presume, a discretion in giving them to such farmers as are likely to make a proper use of them. I do not think that is an improper use of the post office. These bulletins are entitled to go free through the post office, whether sent from Ottawa or from our homes ; and this method of sending simply avoided the necessity of my addressing them separately. I have made it a point to ask the farmers in the section of country to which they were sent, and I have found that the postmasters did, at my request, distribute these bulletins. I know no better way of getting this information into the bands of the people of the country, and I think the Postmaster General is placing undue restriction upon the liberties of members of parliament in making a strict rule of this kind. The question of revenue is not involved at all, because if a member has a right to frank a parcel containing a dozen documents, he has a right to frank each one separately. If he franks each one separately and addresses it to the individual into whose hands he wishes it to go, there is nothing lost to the revenue, and there would be nothing lost to the revenue if he sent ten or a dozen of these to the postmaster and asked him to distribute them. I do not presume that any member of parliament would think of sending out mail matter that was not entitled to free delivery, and ask a postmaster to distribute that. I do not think such a practice has taken place ; I have not heard of it; nor do I think that any member of parliament would jeopardize his position by presuming to do anything of that kind. I think the Postmaster General might reasonably make an exception of parliamentary documents bearing the impress of the King's Printer, which are entitled to go through the post office free of charge. The Minister of Agriculture is certainly mistaken in regard to the loss of revenue. The revenue would not be affected one whit. I fail to see that any wrong would he done to the country, and so long ns the postmaster is willing to do this slight service in accommodating his neighbour by banding around sucb documents as bulletins, I think there is practically no ground for complaint. I would ask the Minister of Agriculture, who is acting for the Postmaster General in his absence, to point this out to the Postmaster General, and ask him not to deprive us of this privilege *which we have enjoyed, legally or illegally. I never thought that I was doing anything wrong when I was using the postal service for a very proper purpose-to promote the Mr. HENDERSON.
work of the Minister of Agriculture. Now he seeks to impose a restriction upon us. I think the farmers of the country will not care to have him stand up in the House and say that their privileges should he interfered with in this way. This is a matter of convenience to members of parliament, who are busy people when they get home. If we get four or five hundred bulletins, and have to sit down and address each one separately, and look up tbe post offices, my impression is that they will be found in tbe waste basket instead of going into the hands of the farmers. If an exception were made in this case, I am satisfied that no loss of revenue would result, and no harm would be done in any way.
Mr. FISHEIi. My bon. friend does not seem to have caught the point I was making. I had no intention of expressing the idea that the mailing of matter by members in that way affected the revenue. What I did point out was that the franking privilege carries with it no privilege that stamped mail matter does not. The frank simply takes the place of the stamp. The regulations and rules of the office have to apply to franked matter just the same as they do to stamped matter. If postmasters are to be allowed to do this work for correspondents, whether members of parliament or not, it will interfere, very materially and seriously, with the collection of revenue in the case of stamped matter. That is tbe view of tbe Post Office Department. If they are to allow a postmaster to do this under certain circumstances and not under other circumstances, tbe authorities contend that it would bring about confusion iu tbe post offices. Postmasters would very often do it when they were not allowed to do it as well as when they were allowed to do it. I am informed by the deputy Postmaster General that there has to be ou the part of the authorities a very constant and close watch, especially over country postmasters, because they are con-stanly being asked to facilitate the use of the post office for the carriage of matter without payment. It is very common for people in a country village to put things into the post office without placing stamps ou them for somebody else who collects his mail at that office. That of course is clearly contrary to the interest of the postal revenue, because all such matter ought to be stamped. That is only one of many ways in which postmasters are tempted not to collect revenue which ought to be collected. Every exception made tends to increase that confusion and tbe chances of loss of revenue. My bon. friend has said that it is a great convenience to members to be able to call on postmasters to do this work for them. I grant that ; I have no doubt of it. At tbe same time, the post office authorities consider that tbe calling on postmasters to do that is a distinct interference with their work as postmasters,

and is detrimental to the public service. If postmasters are asked, they do not like to refuse. They will probably find a great deal of difficulty in refusing their representative in the House ; and yet the doing of. it might seriously interfere with the performance of their duties for which they are paid by the Post Office Department. For that reason the Post Office Department does not consider that it is in the public interest that such a request should be made to the postmaster. My hon. friend speaks about the distribution of literature to the farmers. No doubt it is very desirable that that should be done as widely as possible. At the same time, I do not think that the farmers of the country are asking any special privileges or advantages which other people should not have. If this concession were to be made to members, there is no evidence or knowledge as to the kind of literature that would be sent.
A member can send a bundle to one postmaster and a bundle to another, but unfortunately in the country post offices that opportunity has been taken advantage of for the distribution of circulars and advertisements and things of that kind-I do not mean with the frank but without the frank -in the ordinary course of business. Consequently the post office authorities had to exercise very considerable supervision over the conduct of the post masters in this respect.


John Barr: I regret very much that the department should have seen fit to change the present practice which has been in vogue for the last quarter of a century ; not only in this House but in the provincial parliament as well. Of course in the latter the postage must be paid. The custom is one which is worked, not only to the convenience of members but to the interest of the public. As regards the plea that this occasions trouble to postmasters, I can assure you. Sir, that such is not the case. No member would think of imposing additional trouble on the postmasters if the latter were not willing to do that work. In fact the work in that connection is exceedingly trifling. I hardly think that the Postmaster General understands the position in the country districts or he would not have made the change. All that a postmaster in a rural district has to do is to open the package and place the documents on the counter and let those who call at the office take them. In that way a great deal of useful information can be spread throughout the country and no loss of revenue occasioned. This change will put the members of this House to great inconvenience and deprive the country of those bulletins, because members will not have the time to send out each bulletin separately. It would be impossible for members of this House to do this when, as at present, they have to do so much of their own writing, unlike the practice in some of the local legislatures,
where the members can avail themselves of the staff of sessional clerks for that purpose. Here, however, there is no such staff which members can utilize by dictating their correspondence to shorthand writers and having it typewritten and transmitted through the mails. I hope that the hon. the Postmaster General will consider this matter of sending out packages of official documents and also the suggestion of endeavouring to place members in the position of being able to attend to the wants of then-own constituencies without the great labour, inconvenience and expense now entailed upon them.



WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.

[Stage Direction]
House went into Committee of Ways and Means.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, That it is expedient to provide that the salary of the commandant of the Royal Military College shall not exceed $3,200 a year, and that the salaries of the staff adjutant, professors, instructors, assistant instructors and staff, shall be fixed and may be readjusted from time to time by the Governor in Council-Sir Frederick Borden.
Hon.   S@: The object of this resolution is to found thereon a Bill which I will introduce presently, if the resolution carries, which will provide that the salary of the commandant shall not exceed $3,200 a year, and that the salaries of the staff adjutant, professors, instruc-

tors, assistant instructors and staff, shall be fixed, and may be readjusted from time to time toy the Governor in Council; and that the details of such salaries shall appear in the annual report laid before parliament toy the Minister of Militia and Defence. In fact it wiH be an Act to amend the existing provisions in the Act respecting the Royal Military College, which are as follows ;
The salary of the commandant shall not exceed $3,'200 a year ; the salary of the staff adjutant shall not exceed $1,400 a year, and the salaries of the professors, instructors and assistant instructors shall not exceed the total sum of $26,000 annually. The Governor in Council may from time to time readjust the number and duties, and, within the limit above mentioned, the salaries of the staff, and the details of such salaries shall appear in the annual report laid before parliament by the Minister of Militia and Defence.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the college has grown, and we have now reached the limit of $26,000 for salaries provided in the existing Royal Military College Act. I think it desirable, as later on there may he a further growth and expansion, that the limit of $26,000 should he removed. Parliament always controls these votes, and I thought it better that an amendment should be passed adhering to the limitation of the salary of the commandant, and to the provision with regard to the other professors, but withdrawing from the Bill the limitation of $26,000; leaving it to the Governor in Council to fix the amount of salaries, and leaving it to parliament to vote such sum as may he considered necessary.


Mr. DANIEL.: Do the present salaries appear in detail anywhere?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: Yes, my hon. friend will find them in the Auditor General's Report, and they are in the report of the Minister of Militia.


John Waterhouse Daniel: In the Act just read is it provided that they shall he in the militia report?


Frederick William Borden: The salaries shall appear iu the annual report laid before parliament toy the Minister of Militia and Defence.


Mr. TISDALE.: What is the present amount?


Frederick William Borden: We are spending more than $26,000 now.


David Tisdale: Do I understand that under this amendment, by Order in Council you can change the salary and the amounts without first getting the consent of parliament?


Frederick William Borden: We can do that now up to $26,000. We are not increasing the salaries, but we may want Sir F, W. BORDEN.
more professors. At the present moment we are unable to go beyond $26,000 in providing for the teaching staff of the college. We have reached that limit, we are beyond it now, and it was thought wise to remove that restriction, seeing that the whole matter is absolutely within the control of parliament.


Mr. BERGERON.: But do yon mention a limit in the new Act?


Frederick William Borden: No.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: My hon. friend might be able to fix a limit by calculating how much money he will require, and say that the total shall not exceed the sum fixed.


Frederick William Borden: There is no objection to that, but I think it would be wiser to remove the restriction, because in the course of a few years the college may grow, I think it will. The number of students that can now be accommodated is only 100, and I should think that before many years the capacity of the college will need to he extended to accommodate 200.


David Tisdale: What was the object of fixing a limit in the first place?


Frederick William Borden: 
David Tisdale: I do not remember having read the discussion that took place when the limit was fixed. But I can imagine that it was pointed out that, so1 long as we know that the expense for1 these professors cannot exceed a certain sum unless a statute providing for that excess is passed, it is a guarantee that there will be opportunity for careful discussion before increase is made ; whereas, if it is left unlimited, additions may be made imperceptibly and -without airy opportunity for1 discussion. If the minister would fix a sum beyond which he would not go. I should think that would be sufficient. I was glad to hear him -say that he had no objection to that limitation. Even when, in the1 fullness of time, it becomes necessary to make an' increase, it 'would probably be well to limit that increase add so continue the safeguard that we now have. I think this would be in the interest of the college itself, because it would be an assurance to the public that there is no danger of drifting into undue expenditure. It would he p protection to the minister also, because there are always plenty of people anxious to serve the country at a sufficient salary,

and, if there is no limit the minister will be under constant pressure to increase the expenditure.


Frederick William Borden: As I said 1 have no objection to following- the suggestion of my hon. friend (Mr. Tisdale). In looking over thd history of the present Jaw, I find that in the Royal Military Act as first passed there was no restriction of this kind, but there was a restriction as to the salaries of the professors. The Act provided :
The salary of the commandant shall be not more than $3,000. And the salaries of the professors shall be not more than $2,000 each.
That law, which was passed in 1875 or 1876 was re-enacted when the statutes were revised in 1880. But in 1893 the law was changed and the maximum for the commandant was fixed at>
$3,200, instead of $3,000, the restriction as to the other professors was removed, and a limit of $26,000 was fixed to the total expenditure on this account. I think the amount that we shall require at this moment will be about $30,000, and I am willing that it should be fixed at that. Or perhaps, while we are about it, it might be better to make it a little more-say $35,000. Would there be any i bj i'ct'on to that


David Tisdale: The hon. minister knows best what lid intends to do.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Last year the salaries of the superior staff cost $30,248.


Frederick William Borden: Then, $30,000 would not be enough.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Why not make it $35,000 and leave it at that for a while ?


Frederick William Borden: If $35,000 would be acceptable I will move td amend the resolution in that way.


George Eulas Foster: It seems to me that we are proceeding without knowing anything at all. The minister tells us that he was limited to $26,000 under the law ; the next moment he admits that he has spent $30,-
000.	How can that be ?


Frederick William Borden: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) will understand that I did not spend any money that was not voted by parliament.


George Eulas Foster: But I understand the minister to say that there is a restriction in the law by which he is not allowed to spend more than $26,000 ?


Frederick William Borden: But each year the Supply Bill has voted more. Of course it was not consistent with the Act.


George Eulas Foster: Then, what the minister asks parliament to do in voting supply was to repeal that clause of the Act.


Frederick William Borden: Practically.


George Eulas Foster: I do not suppose that he ever told parliament that that was what lie was doing, for I think that if he had dona so, parliament would have told him that before asking for more than was allowed by law, he should seek the repeal of the law (fixing the limit. But the maiu point is this :	The minister says he wants more
money. What does he intend to do with it ? What has lie been doing up to the present time ? How far does he propose to change the *n Hilary college either as to the- scope of its work or the efficiency of its work ? If he intends to- change the scope of the work and come into competition with universities and colleges, I do not think that that is a thing we ought* to do. If for the military side of the work it is necessary to have more assistance, that is a fair matter for us to consider. I can readily understand that the limit was put there in the first place because there was a good deal of opposition to the government running a collegiate institution and a good deal of suspicion that it would involve too great expense. Consequently, no doubt, in the discussion it was generally agreed upon that a work such as was outlined at that time could he done with a certain sum of money, and that was fixed as the limit. I would like to know from the minister how many professors lie has in the college, how many branches he is teaching and what lie proposes to do in the way of extension requiring more money. We ought to know this before we are asked to amend the law so as to allow larger sums to be devoted to these purposes. I think there is a limit beyond which we are not justified in going. We have other universities in different cities-.one of them in Kingston itself. These are able to cope with all the work of civil education-if that is a proper name for it. We have colleges that are well equipped ; and it is not worth while for us to set up rival institutions. The object young men have in going to the military school is to finish tlieir education with respect to military matters.
How far is it advisable for them to lay tile foundation of their education in the other colleges -and universities that we have, and then, when they come to the West Point of Canada, if it is that, or meant to be that, have their attention devoted chiefly to the training and education necessary in a technical way towards making them useful for the military purposes of this Dominion ? I understand it is not the purpose in view7, or meant to be the purpose, to graduate young men from that institution and to send them out into the various avocations and civil businesses of life. Yet that is what we have been doing. Probably nine-tenths of those who have been put through that institution have gone out and have not devoted their energies to the military line of work, but to some purpose or profession that young men are fitted for by the col-

leges and universities of the country. I think it is time for us to discuss thoroughly and may be to revise our action in this respect. Is it worth while keeping up a military college at large expense to the government simply to train young men for the civil 'businesses of the country ? If it is not wise, and I think we ail agree to that, is it wise to educate only those we can use for our military purposes, and cannot that be done for a less amount of money than that which we have to supply for the teaching and professorial work for a general grounding in the other branches of study which are pursued equally well, and may be better, at the universities and colleges ? Would it not be wiser for our young men to pursue a certain course of preparation in our colleges and schools that provide the necessary qualification for entrance into the military school, and then finish their military education in that institution? Should not that be the real purpose of the military college ? As it is now, I imagine you have professors there who take boys from the common school and teach them mensuration, trigonometry and the mathematics-I do not know whether you teach classics or not- and a great many things that the colleges, schools and universities are specially instituted and established -to teach. The whole -point I am making is : Are we duplicating unnecessarily the work of -the teaching institutions of the country ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, I do not see how you can separate the -technical education, which is a proper part of a military education, from the other branches of knowledge which are indispensable to the soldier. These young men are taken at a c-ertain age, and if they are to receive their -training as soldiers it is necessary that they shah receive. not only a technical education, but that they shall receive also a general education to fit them to take their places in the ranks. I do not think it would be well to teach all the subjects of the -higher classes which are taught .-by the universities, such as classics -and so on, but when we take young men of thirteen or fourteen years of age it is indispensable that they should be taught such subjects as mathematics, geometry, geography, engineering and so on. That is indispensable, it seems to me, and I do not see how you can teach one without teaching the other. In addition to that, they must be taught horsemanship and artillery. They are taught those things which essentially -belong to the education of a soldier, but they cannot have a complete education unless they also have the other branches of knowledge to which I have referred. My hon. friend (Mr. Foster) -asks : Are we going to train young men for the purpose of being soldiers, and after ail train them for civil life ? In my judgment, that is unavoidable. Luckily we shall not require ail the young men that are turned out of the military Mr. FOSTER
college for military purposes. I say luckily, because (I hope the day is far distant when we shall have war. I hope we shall never have war, hut we have our college-kmr West Point as my hon. friend calls it-because of the possibility of having war, and the experience of other nations has proved that in the emergency of war if you have in the walks of civil life any number of men who have received a military education you have the best preparation that you can have for the defence of the country. My hon. friend has only to be reminded that at the outset of the civil war the generals who became most efficient in the American army were Generals Grant, Sherman and McLellan, who had received a military education, but who had left the army and gone into the civil walks of life. General Mc-Lella-n was the manager of a railway, if I remember right; General Sherman, if I remember well, was a teacher in a college, and General Grant had gone into different occupations, but when the country was divided they came hack to the army ; and of all the men who went into the war, and there -wais no want of enthusiasm, those who turned out to be at once successful were the men who had had a military training. Let us say that every year we turn out a number of young men who have received a military education. It is an excellent training for civil life. It gives them an idea of discipline and an idea of many subjects that are of the utmost importance to them. Let the contingency of the country being plunged -into war -arise, and -these young men will leave their occupations, come back into the ranks and form the nucleus of the defence of the country. So I think my hon. friend will agree with me that the training -that is given in the military college is quite proper and necessary. It is not confined to -the technical branches of the profession, hut it also embraces all the subjects of knowledge which are as useful and necessary to the soldier as to any other man in any walk of civil life.


George Eulas Foster: My right hon. friend has scarcely given me credit for the idea I was trying to bring forward. He says it is necessary that you should have your military men well trained and well conditioned in other branches of knowledge. There is no difference between himself and myself there. The only difference that there is between us in that respect would he this : Is it necessary for us to do all that in the military college, or is it not possible for us to take advantage of -the other institutions of learning in which young men are grounded, and then that they should enter the military college to round off their technical and military education ? You might as well say that you must teach everything at the military college from A, B, G up. You have right alongside that college in Kingston a well equipped university-Queen's. There

are ruen in that institution who teach the arts and sciences, and the practical sciences as well. Is there no way by which there can be a co-operation between the institutions that already exist and your military college, so that you need not throw away or duplicate the work of these institutions ? Is that not possible ? The medical man is trained for his profession, but the medical colleges do not teach all the other branches of a liberal education. These are taught elsewhere, and in connection with his training and his profession, the medical training that is given in the medical college is exclusively in the line of medical knowledge. Of course, a doctor would be a very poor outfit unless he were as well as possible instructed in the elements of a liberal education, tout the medical college does not propose to do that, and does not do it. It coniines itself, through its experts in special courses, to the making of a doctor out of certain material, and the better the material the better the doctor.
What I am arguing for is this : is it not possible for this military institution to avail itself of the large and generous training afforded in the other institutions of learning, and for it to devote its attention specially to the making of military men. No one doubts that if you have men who have a knowledge of military matters and you do not want to keep them at mimic warfare all the time, it is a great deal better they should be engaged in other avocations of life, while of course they are a great deal better fitted if the occasion should arise, to take their share in the enginery of war. But the very same thing could be accomplished by utilizing the training institutions we have and with which we do not wish to compete, and let the military training establishment be specially for military purposes. The objection may be urged, that those whom you wisli to train in the technique of war, you must bring under military discipline when they are young. Other things being equal, I suppose it would be better that you should apply the methods of military discipline from a very early age, hut there are disadvantages connected with that. Too much military discipline contracts life in grooves which are not quite advantageous in the general every day rough and tumble of life. While you may sacrifice something of machine like precision because you have not the hoys in your hands from twelve to fifteen years of age, yet probably the men as a whole would gain by not being so long under that strict form of discipline. I would like to know what is being done in the military college now ; how much of the work that might be done by other educational institutions, are we duplicating, and is it impossible for ns to co-operate with and take advantage of the work done by these other colleges so that in the military college we might devote our efforts chiefly to military training. I do not imagine we are aiming at raising up a
phalanx of great generals ; what we do want to get is a certain number of trained young men who will make efficient officers for the militia of the country, and if war ever comes, who will be the more competent to serve their own country because of their military training. We do not want to subordinate the whole of the life of these young men to military work, but we do want to form material which may be utilized if ever the opportunity should arise for actual war, and which can be availed of as directors of that less efficient military education which wo give to our militia through the annual drill. It is well worth while considering whether we may not easily go to too great expense in trying to duplicate what other institutions would do for us equally well, and, not in the end to the disadvantage of the men who are turned out from the military college.


Frederick William Borden: I appreciate the position which my boil, friend (Mr. Foster) takes. I do not understand that he is against the military college


George Eulas Foster: Oh, no.


Frederick William Borden: But, my hon. friend seems to think that we could spend this money better by conducting a college which would take young men from other colleges and educate them specially in military subjects after they had acquired a certain portion of their general education. I believe there is a great deal of force in that contention, and I think the time will come when we should act from that point of view, but I do not think it has come yet. If my hon. friend has read the debate which took place when the military college was founded-I happened to be in the House at the time and heard the discussion-lie will find that Mr. Alexander Mackenzie who took a very active interest in the matter, pointed out that it was desirable to found a college of this kind, not with the expectation that the graduates would take up to any very great extent military careers, but to secure by a composite military and general education a class of young men who, although they might follow civil pursuits, would he of great use to the country in the event of war. For that purpose every graduate of the military college, whether he enters the active militia or the permanent force, or not, is on the list and liable to be called on as an officer of the King. It was thought, and I think the idea was sound, that the military training and the technical knowledge which the Royal Military College graduate acquired, might prove-and it has proved-of very great advantage to the country. During the last nine years we have taken one step in the direction the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) suggests. Originally the course was four years and the age of matriculation fifteen years ; we have reduced the course to three years and we have raised the age of matriculation from fifteen to seventeen

years, so that thus far we have met the views of the hon. gentleman. I feel we have gone far enough for the present, though, I think later on we may take an additional step. The length of the course in the military colleges in England is two years, and those entering are expected to have a good general education.


George Eulas Foster: At what age do they enter?


Frederick William Borden: It is either eighteen or nineteen years, I am not positive. Some day no doubt we will come to that position. As to interference with the other universities, or as to the allegation that this government is subsidizing a college in opposition to other universities, I do not think there is much in that, and so far as I know the other universities are not in any way jealous of the Royal Military College. They are glad to co-operate with the military college in every way. As a matter of fact, many of the graduates of the military college, after graduating take special courses in engineering and other branches in the great universities of the country. The training which the young men receive at that college is of a special character ; it is calculated to improve them in every way, physically, morally and mentally ; it is invaluable for men who are to follow a military career, but is I believe enormously valuable for men, no matter what may be their lot in life afterwards. I think we can scarcely overestimate the importance of that course. I think we do not sufficiently value the advantage which that college has been to Canada during the twenty-five or thirty years of its existence. As to the future of the college, my hon. friend has asked me very properly what is being taught at the college at the present time. I have here the curriculum, or list of subjects taught.


David Tisdale: Is there a matriculation examination?
'Sir FREDERICK BORDEN. Yes, a very severe matriculation examination-indeed, more severe than the matriculation examination in most of the universities, including an examination, I may say, in classics. In the first class is taught : military engineering, reeonnaisanee, science (including physics and chemistry), civil surveying, civil ' engineering, infantry drill, artillery drill, equitation, gymnastics and fencing, rifle practice, revolver practice. In the second class: mathematics and mechanics, descriptive geometry military engineering, artillery (theory and construction) of tactics, military administration, military law, military topography, civil surveying, French, infantry drill, artillery drill, signalling, gymnastics, rifle practice, revolver practice, workshops. In the third class: mathematics and mechanics, geometrical drawing, military engineering, artillery, military topography, English, French, infantrv drill, ar- I tillery drill, gymnastics, swimming, rifle Sir F. W. BORDEN.
practice, revolver practice, workshops. Many subjects, of course, are begun in the first year and continued during the second and third years. With regard to the advantage of this college to Canada, I regret to say that in the jjast we have not been able to secure many of the graduates for our own permanent force.


George Eulas Foster: How many have been graduated up to date?


Frederick William Borden: About 400. Unfortunately, owing to the fact that our permanent force did not otter very many temptations to young men who wished to follow a military career, we have not had the advantage of having many of the young gentlemen join that force. But some of them have done so, and a few have reached senior positions; and they are most useful officers in the several departments in which they are serving.


George Eulas Foster: How many are now actively engaged in that work in Canada ?


Frederick William Borden: At present I think there are in the permanent militia force about twenty or twenty-two ; hut after the closing of the present term of the college on the 1st of ,Tuly there will he about forty, owing to the better prospects now afforded of a career in that force, and owing to the fact that a few years ago we carried through this House a pension Bill for the militia, which is now law. Some of those in the second year are likely to be offered positions. So that altogether the record is not too discouraging, and it augurs well, I think, for the future.


George Eulas Foster: What was the amount expended last year?


Frederick William Borden: The expenditure is not so large as it seems, because we are recouped for a very large part of it. The young gentlemen pay so much a year, which goes into the public treasury.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: What is the fee?


Frederick William Borden: A $100 fee and about $200 for supplies-about $300 each. So that the actual expenditure of the country on the college is not more than $65,000 a year; and, after all, considering the work which that college has done, not only in Canada, hut in other colonies and in the empire, in the way of makiug Canada better known, I think we are paying a very small amount of money for the advantages received. My hon. friend has asked me what the salaries at the present moment are. The amount spent yast year was slightly over $26,000.


David Tisdale: What is the reason of this increase ?


Frederick William Borden: The increase in the number ' of pupils. Ten years ago

the number of graduates per annum was about niue ; now it is thirty-four. The number of applications to get into the college last year was over fifty, and only those applicants are admitted who get the most marks. There is therefore now competition for admission. Those who get the highest marks come first. The capacity of the college is about 100, and each year there are about thirty-four vacancies.


David Tisdale: Do you keep the number up to the maximum ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, we have to turn away a large* number of applicants. Last year forty-*six passed the examination, and we only had thirty-four placets. There are ninety-five in the college now.


Uriah Wilson: Why should there be an increase in the cost of running when there is no increase in the capacity ?


Frederick William Borden: We have double the number of students now that we had ten years ago, and are being asked to provide assistant teachers. We have added two or three assistants to the college, who are absolutely necessary.


Uriah Wilson: Are the classes so large that you require to have two professors now where one sufficed before ?


Frederick William Borden: About nine years ago, when I took office, the college was very much run down, and the number of students was a little more than half what it is to-day. Then the duration of tuition was four years instead of three as it is now. I do not say that there is the same amount of work done in three years that there was in four, but the' military training, which was formerly spread over four years, is now limited to three.


Uriah Wilson: How many additional professors have you ?


Frederick William Borden: Three.


George Eulas Foster: How many altogether ?


Frederick William Borden: The Commandant is Lieutenant-Colonel Reade, imperial officer. Mr. E. V. O. Hewett, imperial officer, is professor of strategy, tactics and staff duties. Mr. H. A. Panet, graduate of Royal Military College, was adjutant, and has been replaced by another graduate of the Royal Military College.
ME FOSTER. What does he teach ?


Frederick William Borden: 
George Eulas Foster: You have four hundred graduates and have employed at the most twenty-two for military purposes iu this country. The others have gone into civil life ?


Frederick William Borden: We have a very much larger number- than that in the active militia and we have trebled the number employed in the different departments at Ottawa.


George Eulas Foster: For the exclusively technical work for which this college was designed, you have out of 400 graduates made use of twenty-two ? You have some others doing clerk work in the department, which is very good if they are good clerks, and if not, they are not made any better because they happen to have gone through the military college.


Frederick William Borden: They are doing clerical work In the departments.


George Eulas Foster: That would be a proper use for graduates of the military college, but no doubt it is work which any well educated clerk could do, because it is routine work more than anything else. The thought that comes to one is this : Out of 400 graduates of this institution, you have between 22 and 40 who are engaged in more or less technical military work in Canada. The institution at present will turn out 34 graduates a year. Now, does not the minister think he has space enough and machinery enough in that establishment to turn out all the military graduates that can be employed in military work, technical and genera], in this country and still leave a sufficient surplus as our contribu-

69S0
tion to the military force of the empire ? What is the purpose of turning out twice as many, or three times as many, if, after their graduation they are simply to be absorbed into the ordinary work of the world? For such work they would be as well trained by other institutions. I think it is an excellent thing that some of those who go through our military college take up the military profession in other parts of the empire and do work in that way for the empire. I do not think Canada loses by that ; I think she gains. If war came to Canada, this is the class of men who would come back here, and useful men they would be, too. But, turning out 34 well equipped, thoroughly instructed men every year, it seems to me you are educating all that are needed for our own service and providing all the surplus that is necessary. So, if there is an idea that because there are more applicants you must enlarge your classes and enlarge your college, I think that you can very well think over the contrary proposition which I submit and with saving of expense. Why not turn attention to making the 34 graduates that you turn out more efficient, more thorough, if they need more thoroughness, and, instead of increasing quantity improve in quality ? And there is another point. Here you have a professor of surveying ;-that is military surveying, of course. That is a little different from civil surveying-it is somewhat technical. You have a professor of mathematics. Now, mathematics is mathematics whether it is taught in a military establishment or any other, and however it may be applied.


Frederick William Borden: But, if my hon. friend will allow me, it is absolutely necessary for instruction in artillery and engineering.


George Eulas Foster: But there is no essential difference in mathematics taught in military college and mathematics taught in Queen's University or anywhere else. These schools and colleges are doing this part of the work of education and can be relied upon to do it. Then you have civil engineering, and to that the same statement applies. Then you have a professor of physics and chemistry. These branches are taught equally well in other institutions. You have a French teacher and an English teacher. For French, English, mathematics, physics, chemistry and civil engineering you have instructors and professors in the military college ; and all these branches are taught at least equally well in other institutions. I go further and say that they are taught better. You cannot put a French teacher into the military college to give what time he can to boys who enter at seventeen years of age and expect him to do much in teaching them French. He may keep up the French they have, he may even help those who are English to leam a


George Eulas Foster: little more French. But French, English, and these other branches can be more competently taught to young men in the colleges and universities and schools than they can by the casual and fragmentary work which is possible on these lines in a military college. Putting all these together, it seems to me that, with proper co-operation the military college could be the means of much more efficient work in its own line. By providing a rigid examination so that only those could be admitted who were well grounded in the branches taught in other institutions, you would have classes of young men who would devote their attention particularly to the military side of their education. If that all means that you get young men even at a riper age, it would do no harm. I think eighteen would be a better age than seventeen. The reason why many of the boys who graduate at a military college do not apply themselves to military life is that they have not the military taste. I do not know whether that taste is born in a Boy or not ; but I doubt very much that it can be educated into any large proportion of the youth of this country. When a boy has reached the age of eighteen he knows whether his bent is towards a military life or not. If he then makes the choice of entering the military college, it is fair to assume that is because he has a liking for military life, and probably, an aptitude for it; and this is the class of young men who will be the most apt, the most easily instructed and the most efficient graduates in military science. This, evidently is what the English people think. Their military colleges take boys at nineteen years of age. I imagine, though. I cannot speak by the book, that when these applicants come to the military colleges at nineteen, they must be very well grounded in the other branches.
How favourably Kingston is situated for such a work as I have indicated. The military college is alongside one of the best educational institutions we have in Ontario or in the Dominion. Co-operation would be so easy and, so would be the increasing of the limit of age and making the course, if anything, a litle shorter. That may be a matter for very careful consideration. It may be that three years is not too long for a young man to devote to work upon the military side of his education. I think there is something in the view I have tried to present regarding the educational side of the question. Now you have, I suppose, about 30 per class.


Frederick William Borden: About 32.


George Eulas Foster: The professor teaches military matters to a class of not less than thirty. Would, not a larger class be better ? For instance, in teaching strategy, how to avoid your enemy, how to get on his weak side, how to deploy-can lie not do that better when he has thirty or forty than

when he has only fifteen? He gets lip nearer to army conditions. Then the professor of artillery can just as well instruct forty pupils as ten, and do it with a great deal more vim, as he has more inspiration. The same way with military surveying. He takes his class out, I suppose, and teaches them military surveying. It seems to me therefore that your professorial staff ought to take care of an average class of about thirty. Each class, I suppose, would average about that.


Frederick William Borden: About thirty-two or thirty-three. I would like to add a word. I do not differ seriously from the view of my hon. friend, except that, as I have already said, I think there was something in Mr. Mackenzie's idea that it was desirable to educate a class of young men, not only fitting them for the ordinary duties of life, but carrying along with that a special and technical military education. My hon. friend has not referred to that point which I made; but he agrees with me that at the time when Mr. Mackenzie spoke there was something in that idea, and we have consequently a large number of men in this country engaged in civil pursuits whose names are in the militia list, and who took that course, and would toe very valuable men in the event of stress. My hon. friend argues that we should go still further in the direction in which I have taken one step, by reducing the length of the term one year. He also proposes-I do not understand that he wishes it to be done at once, but that eventually we may take young men at a greater age, say eighteen or nineteen, with higher acquirements and higher qualifications, from the high schools and universities of the country, and give them a military education alone. I am inclined to agree very much with that view.


George Eulas Foster: Founded upon the broader elements.


Frederick William Borden: Exactly. No doubt the present college will be sufficient for many years to come to accommodate all the students we will have. But for a time at least, we must go on as we are now. When we reach the point to which my hon. friend refers, it will be necessary to do as is done to-day in the military college in England, and as is done at West Point, and apply a test. When a young man enters the West Point Academy he binds himself, enters into a solemn obligation, to join the army of the United States and serve therein for twelve years.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, because they have an army.


Frederick William Borden: 
George Eulas Foster: The minister can do that now if he pleases. I never could see any reason why you should put a limit in the statute and bind yourself to so much or to so little, because you have to get it voted by parliament.


Frederick William Borden: That was my idea, but some of my hon. friends opposite wanted to fix a limit.


David Tisdale: How many graduates are now in the imperial army ?


Frederick William Borden: I think over 100.


David Tisdale: It is only just to the college that that fact should be stated; because when the college was started one of the objects was to educate some of our young men, no(t for service in Canada solely, but also to serve in the imperial army and thus to keep up a connection between the mother country and Canada. I understand there have always been more applications by young men leaving the college than the commissions offered. I notice in Colonel Reade's report that he recommends that every young man, immediately on graduating, should either obtain a commission in tlie imperial army, or in our permanent militia, or should serve three years in the volunteers. I think something of that sort would be well worthy of consideration. especially as the college has now reached tlie point when you have more applications than you can receive. I think the time has now come when you can gradually begin to impose conditions. My hon. friend from North Toronto has suggested several improvements. You would have to raise the standard of matriculation if you carried out the suggestions he has so ably expressed, and in a good many of which I concur. We want to teach in that college as few things as possible that are not purely military, we want to make good military officers. Mathematics uo doubt

are indispensable, to a certain extent, so far as they have a direct application to some of the arms of the force. We know that every year the evolution of arms makes it more important that military officers should have a knowledge of ail the branches which go to form a technical education. But, beyond that the only way that I can see to increase the efficiency and economy of the department is by gradually eliminating all the education that is not directly or indirectly military from the college. There is a good deal to be said in favour of the argument of establishing a maximum and that would regulate to a large extent the number of professors. I think that a request for $4,000 more is not an unreasonable one and probably in another year it might be well to take up and consider at more length and with more knowledge the requirements of the college on these lines.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Before the motion is carried, I would like to ask the hon. minister to explain a little more definitely in regard to the mode of admissions to the Royal Military College. As I understand it, a few years ago a certain number was apportioned to the different provinces of Canada, iso many to Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces. ,1 understood the hon. minister to state definitely that admissions were entirely by competition and the marks obtained by examination, so that now there are no numbers apportioned to different localities in Canada. Otherwise, I may say that II was very much pleased with the statement of the minister in regard to the Royal Military College. I have always takeu a very great interest in that institution. I do think that our permanent forces do not receive the benefit from that college which they ought to receive, and I was rather under the impression that the government did not encourage these young men to go into the permanent militia, as the fact of their being graduates of the Royal Military College did not give them any advantage over any other young man whom the government of the day might wish to appoint. I think that is so.


Frederick William Borden: Yes, it does give them an advantage.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I take it, however, from the statement of the hon. minister that so far from that being the case, it was rather difficult to get these young men to take positions in the permanent militia, because the permanent militia did not offer a very prosperous career to a young man. I am very glad indeed that the conditions have changed, so that these young men now, inasmuch as they feel inclined to embrace the military profession, do look forward to commencing that military career in our own permanent militia force.


Frederick William Borden: In reply to ray hon. friend first in reference to the apiMr. TISDALE. _
portioning of vacancies in the college among the different provinces, I would say that I do not think that was ever the rule or the practice, but I am inclined to the view that it might be a wise thing to do. I happened to be at West Point the other day, and, among other things, I learnt there that the disposition of cadetships was territorial, or that it was among the different states-a certain number to each state, of course subject to competition and nomination. Certain prominent people, senators or the members of the House of Representatives have the right to nominate candidates for admission to West Point, but if the nominees do not pass the required examination then other nominees are put forward. I think there is something to be said in favour of territorial distribution. In that way you have in the college representatives from every part of the country, and you are leavening the whole country with whatever advantage may come from those highly trained and highly educated gentlemen. At the present time that is not the law. I think it is worth while considering, subject, of course, to the provision that a competitive examination must be passed as far as the particular district is concerned. In reference to the other inquiry which my hon. friend made, I said that the permanent force of the past did not seem to offer a tempting career, and hence young gentlemen from the Royal Military College did not apply for admission to it. There was no pension law. A man might go on serving his country until he became too old or reached the age limit, and he wouid then he allowed to go out on the street without any provision being made for him. That has been changed. We now have a pension, law. The Royal Military College graduate has this advantage over any one else that he can receive a commission at once without any further examination, whereas an applicant from the ordinary walks of life or a college must pass a technical military examination before he can receive a commission.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time, and agreed to.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 169) to amend the Act respecting the Royal Military College.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, That it is expedient to amend the Militia Act, and to provide that the permanent force may be increased to five thousand men.- Hon. Sir Frederick Borden.
Hon.   S@: The provision

made for the permanent force in the Militia Law which was passed last session is for
2.010	men. The original provision was for
1.010	and during the last session it was increased to 2,000. Although it is not expected that the limit of 5.000 will be reached for some time, 1 thought it was desirable, while making the change, that power should be taken to increase it to 5,000, and I will give some explanation in detail as to why this is proposed to be done. The committee is aware that an offer was made by this government some time ago to the imperial authorities to relieve the War Office of the responsibility of maintaining the garrisons at Halifax and Esquimau, and that that offer was accepted. The strength of the garrisons at Esquimalt and Halifax is something like 2,500 men, so that it will be necessary to have an amendment to the Act to enable us to increase the strength of the permanent force. The strength of the permanent force at present is about 1,200 and our limit under the law is 2,000. We must get authority to increase the strength to enable us to provide garrisons at Halifax and Esquimalt.


David Tisdale: That will take 2,500 men ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, but I am informed by General Lake that probably a less number would be sufficient. In addition to Halifax and Esquimalt there is to be a depot at Montreal and a depot at some point in the Northwest Territories, to be called the Strathcona Horse. This matter has been discussed on two or three occasions and provision is being made for the erection of the necessary buildings. In addition to These two new depots, when the new provinces in the Northwest are organized it will be necessary, if we are to seriously undertake the problem of defence for the whole of Canada, to add some depots in these new provinces. I have a statement here showing that approximately a strength of 5,000 permanent force will be required some time in the future. I do not mean to say that at present it is intended to go beyond the depots now in existence with about 1,200 men, the depot at Montreal with probably 200 men, the Strathcona Horse depot with 100 or 125 men, and the Halifax and Esquimalt garrisons. I do not say it is the intention to go beyond the establishment of these depots at the present time or perhaps for some time to come, but I do say that if we are to carry out the idea of becoming responsible for the defence of this country, it will be necessary to make provision for about 5,000 men in the permanent force.


Mr. FOWLER.: Will the Strathcona Horse depot be in one of the new provinces ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes.


George William Fowler: Which one ?


Frederick William Borden: Alberta.


George William Fowler: At what point ?


Frederick William Borden: I am not able to speak positively but the officers of my department report that from a strategic point of view it should be situated either at Calgary or Medicine Hat; probably Calgary.


George William Fowler: What about Manitoba ?


Frederick William Borden: We already have a large depot in Winnipeg. I will read the statement I have here because there Is no object in keeping it back. This statement comprises the whole of the depots ; those proposed as well as those now in existence.
Cavalry-three squadrons Royal Canadian Dragoons and six squadrons Royal Canadian Mounted Rifles. Each squadron numbers 150 men so that the total will be 1,350.
Artillery-Royal Canadian Horse Artillery; three batteries of 133 men each. Total 399 men.
Royal Canadian Garrison Artillery-live companies of 220 men each. Total 1,100.
Engineers-Royal Canadian Engineers, three companies 100 men each. Total 300.
Infantry, Royal Canadian Regiment, ten companies of 120 men each. Total 1,200.
Canadian Army Medical Corps ; details divided among the different depots. Total 150.
Canadian Army Service Corps ; details divided among the different depots. Total 150.
Canadian Ordnance Store Corps ; details divided among the different depots. Total 150.
That makes 4,800, and it includes all now in existence and those proposed. The distribution of the above mentioned units of the different corps will be as follows :
Royal Canadian Dragoons ; one squadron each at Toronto, Ont. St. John, Que. and Fredericton, N.B. At St. John, Que. and at Fredericton, N.B., the Royal Canadian Dragoons would replace the infantry regiments which are at present in these depots.


George William Fowler: You will continue the depot at Fredericton ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, but for cavalry instead of infantry.


George William Fowler: Will there not be some discussion as to that ?


John Waterhouse Daniel: They have already been moved.


Frederick William Borden: The infantry have been moved to Halifax, but there will be a cavalry corps substituted. The infantry at St. Johns, Que., will be moved to Montreal and a cavalry detachment established at St. Johns, Que.


George William Fowler: I would point out to the minister that as Sussex, King's county, is being made a military post and a great'deal of money is being spent there-some of it wisely, although not all-it would be well to make Sussex the headquarters of this cav-

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airy regiment. It is really a military town at the present time, the military camp is held there every summer ; it is the site ot the new rifle range, and in order to round out the whole establishment and make it complete Sussex should he made the cavalry depot.


Frederick William Borden: I am afraid my hon. friend wants the earth.


George William Fowler: We will supply the earth if you give us the men.


Frederick William Borden: I will have to ask my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) to confer with the member for York (Mr. Crocket) and when these hon. gentlemen come to an agreement I will carry it out.


George William Fowler: I am afraid we would not agree.


Frederick William Borden: I hope the committee will accept my statement when I sav, that what I am reading here is absolutely and entirely the result of conferences between the military members of the mill-tary council. I um told that froni a strat-esical point of view Fredericton is an important point at which to have the cavalry station. Later on we may be able to have a cavalry depot at Sussex.
Roval Canadian Mounted Rifles :	one
squadron in Manitoba, at Winnipeg, three in Alberta, and two in Saskatchewan.


Mr. HERRON.: ' Not a full regiment ?


Frederick William Borden: A squadron numbers 125. There is a squadron at \\ mnipeg now.


George William Fowler: There are no Mounted Rifles, outside of these, west of Lake Superior 1


Frederick William Borden: 
John Waterhouse Daniel: I would like to ask the minister how he proposes to defend the city of St. John, New Brunswick ? I notice that in this scheme of defence there is no mention of that important port. Whether the minister thinks the local volunteer militia are quite sufficient for all ordinary and extraordinary purposes of defence I do not know ; but I notice especially that there is no artillery organization put down for the city of St. John. As I understand, under the original scheme of placing the permanent artillery forces of this Dominion, it was intended to put a battery of artillery at the port of St. John. iSo far it has not been done. I notice that the minister stated that the location of these forces is in his idea, and I presume in that of the Council which advises him, a proper distribution for defensive purposes. I cannot agree with that. I am not a military man, hut I know that the port of St. John is an important point in that p rtion of the Dominion-that it is at the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway, -it is one of the termini of the Intercolonial Railway, and it commands on the Atlantic coast one of the important entrances to the Dominion ; and if this scheme, which the minister has outlined this afternoon, is seriously put forward as one for locating the defensive forces of the Dominion from a military point of view. I do not think he has been happy in his cfioice when he entirely ignores such an important point on the Atlantic coast as the harbour of St. John.


Frederick William Borden: During the discussion of the militia estimates I shall perhaps be able to give my hon. friend some information on that point. As I said a moment ago, this paper, which I have read, has been handed to me and is signed by the chief military adviser of the government, General Lake, and I am inclined to think that on general principles it is sound and that he has signed it only after very careful consideration. I think some provision for increased artillery is to be made at St. John ; I know that a new field battery is to be organized there, under the command of a prominent citizen and friend of the hon. gentleman, with the latest up-to-date guns. Whether any detachment of* the permanent force will be placed at St.


George William Fowler: John, I do not know ; I infer not. But later on, if the hon. gentleman renews his question, I shall be able to give him what information I have.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Has General Lake ever visited St. John ?


Frederick William Borden: Oh. yes. He was formerly here for five years, and has been all over the country.


George William Fowler: I would like to ask the minister if it is the intention to fortify any of these seaports-the port of St. John, for instance-so that the local garrison artillery would be able to defend the port in case of attack by a hostile fleet ?


Frederick William Borden: I believe that some work has been done in the way of ascertaining what guns would be necessary at certain points, and of placing these particular points in readiness for receiving the guns. My hon. friend knows that in modern warfare fortifications, in the old sense of the word have become almost entirely useless. Take for instance the walls of the city of Quebec. The method of protecting important centres is now by a system of masked batteries, having guns in readiness but not placing them in position until they are required for use. That is the scheme proposed with regard to Montreal. It is not necessary to advertise to the world where your guns are to be placed or in what manner it is intended to defend an important position of that kind. Some arrangements have been made with reference to St. John, but it would not be desirable to state exactly whar is being done although I would be glad to give my hon. friend the information in my office.


George William Fowler: Hare any steps been taken to strengthen the seaport of St. John 1 Has any engineer gone there to examine and locate the different points where tne fortification works should be put ?


Frederick William Borden: That has been done.


David Tisdale: Has the bon. minister the correspondence between the War Office and his department regarding the taking over by this government of these two
places ?


Frederick William Borden: The hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) moved for the papers some time ago and his motion carried. The correspondence was not concluded, and the other day I asked him in the coi'ridor whether he wanted those portions of the correspondence that had already taken place or would he wait until the correspondence was concluded. I said I would prefer waiting, and he said that was quite satisfactory to him. I have been expecting daily an answer with regard to the expenditure involved and so on. and it would be convenient to postpone the dis-2221 ,
cussion until the supplementary estimates are brought down, when I shall lay all the papers on the table.


David Tisdale: In an evening paper I see it is stated that there is correspondence going on regarding the postponing of the taking over of these points.


Frederick William Borden: We expect to take over Halifax the 1st July, but Esquimau may continue as at present for a year, except that instead of our paying the British government one-half the expense, as we are now doing, we propose to pay the whole expense next year, and in a year from July next take over the responsibility and control of the Esquimau garrison. The force at Esquimau is about 350, including artillery and engineers.


David Tisdale: I understand the bon. minister prefers to postpone the discussion on this as well as the whole question until he brings down his supplementary estimates, and then it may be discussed to the fullest extent.


Frederick William Borden: There will be a large Item in the supplementaries to provide for the taking over of these garrisons ; and when that comes down, I propose to lay all the correspondence on the table and have a general discussion.


David Tisdale: Does the hon. minister propose to explain the reduction of the training force or does he want that to stand ?


Frederick William Borden: When we go into Committee of Supply at eight o'clock would be the most convenient moment to discuss that matter.


John Herron: Can the hon. minister give us the particulars regarding the distribution of the mounted rifles at Alberta and where the different headquarters of the troops are to be V


Frederick William Borden: I gave Calgary as the point where I thought the Strathcona Regiment will be located and also a half battery of artillery. There will be two more squadrons of mounted rifles ultimately in Alberta, but I am not able to give the points where they will be placed. *


John Herron: There Is a good deal of trouble in the southern part of that country over military matters, and we should have some explanation of that later on.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is it the intention of the hon. minister now, or when the sup-plemeutaries are down, to explain the policy of the government regarding the defence of Canada ? We have been hearing a good deal about what Canada should do in connection with sharing the expense of the navy of the empire and whether it should take upon itself the whole burden of its own national defence. I think we are com-

ing now to a time when parliament should be informed what is the mind of the government. Right on the heels of the departure of the British navy from Halifax, as its winter station, conies the news of one of our Canadian vessels being held up in Uruguay and its crew being jailed ; and so far nothing has been done, that parliament is aware of, to see that these people are released. Mow, I do not know whether the one has anything to do with the other or not. Of course, the members of the government do know. But I think it is now time that parliament should at least, be given some idea of the policy of the government with regard to the defence of Canada and with regard to this country taking part in Imperial defence. I would like to ask the minister whether, either on the supplementary estimates or on this item he intends to inform us of the policy of the-' government on this very important question ?


Frederick William Borden: On the broad question to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Daniel) refers any announcement,
I believe, should be made by the Prime Minister. But I may inform the hon. gentleman that I propose to discuss at some length the policy of the government and of the Militia Department as to the development of the militia in the Dominion, as to the question of the defence of this country on land, and as to the maintenance of the civil powder. That I shall be prepared to discuss, and I shall be very glad to have my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) and as many others as are interested take part in the discussion.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Will that be on the supplementary estimates?


David Tisdale: As I understand it-the general discussion on the militia has been held over, so that we can discuss any branch of the question that we please. And the minister himself will make the general announcement.
Resolution reported, read the first and second time and agreed to.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 170) to amend the Militia Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to,' and Bill read the first time.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess,
House resumed at eight o'clock.

Mr. SPEAKER.: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following communication from the Governor General's .Secretary :


John Waterhouse Daniel: Office of the Governor General's Secretary, Ottawa, June 6, 1905.
The Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons.
Sir,-I have the honour to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate chamber on Wednesday, the 7th instant, at three P.M., for the purpose of giving the Royal Assent to certain Bills which have passed the Senate and House of Commons during the present session of parliament.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
J. HANBURY WILLIAMS, Colonel,
Governor General's Secretary.



SUPPLY-REDUCTION OF THE ACTJVE MILITIA.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister Of Militia and Defence) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply. He said : Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair, I would like to make the explanation which was asked for yesterday with reference to the late reduction of the establishment of the active militia. A good deal has been written in tlie newspapers under a misapprehension. and in order to make my explanation clear I will begin by defining what the word ' establishment ' means. Establishment means a list showing the numbers in each rank which any corps is authorized to maintain on its roll. The strength of a corps means the actual number which, at any given moment, happens to be borne on those roils. Establishments may be peace, war or training establishments. The establishment list of February 23rd, 1904, gave peace and training as identical, and war in a separate column. This would have been correct for a central camp of instruction, which was then in immediate contemplation ; but for the annual training of the present year, when the central camp of instruction has not materialized, while the peace establishments have remained actually the same, the training establishments have been somewhat reduced for lack of facilities which a central camp would have afforded. The point is that there has been no material change in the peace establishment which was fixed in February, 1904. But owing to the reasons I have just stated, it was found desirable to reduce the peace establishment for the present training, and that is what has been done. I will read a memorandum to which I referred yesterday, which has been prepared for me by General Lake, Chief of the General Staff :
From the Chief of the General Staff to the Hon. the Minister of Militia and Defence. Establishments.
With reference to our recent conversation concerning the statements which have appeared in the public press alleging large reductions in the establishments of the militia, I submit the following explanation of the reasons which, in the opinion of the military members of the
JTnSTE 6. 1905
Council, were sufficient to justify the action taken.
The establishments authorized by the Governor in Council on 23rd February, 1901, were drawn up, it is understood, under the personal supervision of Major General Lord Dundonald, after careful consideration. They included both * peace training ' and ' war ' establishments. The former with which alone we are concerned, were working out upon the assumption that by the time they came into force a central camp of instruction for the militia would have been acquired and equipped, at which facilities would exist for training such portions of these ' peace training ' establishments as had been added to the previously existing establishments of units for the purpose of preparation for war.
The establishments of the 23rd February, 1904, must, therefore, if they are to be properly understood, be read with special reference to this assumption. As is well known, the central training camp is not yet selected. It will probably be chosen at no distant date, but though it may be hoped that it will be in running order, at least partially, in time for the training season next year, it was out of the question that it should be ready for this summer. The Militia Council had, therefore, to consider what establishments should be adopted for the present training season. In deciding what these establishments should be, two considerations had to be kept in view. The first was that the ' peace training ' establishments of the 23rd February, 1904, which appeared to be based upon carefully considered principles, should not be disturbed more than could be avoided ; and the second, that, in viewr~of the many other urgent calls for expenditure for militia purposes, strict economy should be observed, and no greater expense should be authorized than was evidently essential for military efficiency. It was, therefore, decided as a general policy to adopt such portions of the ' training ' establishments laid down in the lists of 23rd February, 1904, as were really necessary for training purposes with the units, and to omit all details which could not be defended upon this ground. The training establishments promulgated in general orders of the 9th May, 1905, were based upon these considerations. There appear to be several omissions and typographical errors and one or two inconsistencies in the general order as published. A further general order amending it in these respects is now In course of preparation.
Reference has. been made to the need for economy, in view of other urgent militia services requiring attention. Apart from the question that all administration should be economical, the Militia Council had to face the urgent requirements of an expansion of the militia in Manitoba and the new provinces of the Northwest. The great Influx of population into these regions, including as it does, a Targe proportion of aliens, has made it imperatively necessary to widen the extent of the militia organization of that part of the country, both for the preservation of internal order and for the fostering among that population of a Canadian national spirit. Some suggestion has been made In the press that the reduction complained of In the training establishments has been the result of the Canadian offer to take over the defence of Halifax and Esquimau, as it has been hinted that in a spirit of false economy the government have wished to meet the expense of the garrisons of these fortresses by cutting down the militia. So far Is this from being the case that the policy embodied in the new training
establishments was actually decided upon in principle before the question of offering to take over the responsibility of Halifax and Esquimalt was officially raised.
As regards the alleged hardship imposed upon the corps which had already filled up the ranks of both officers and non-commissioned officers, and had commenced training before the promulgation of the new training establishments, it may be stated that the .Miutia Council was aware that in certain city corps the appointments had already been made, and, what is more, that the annual training had already commenced before those corps were made acquainted with what was contemplated. Realizing the difficulty in which these corps might find themselves, you, as the Minister in Militia Council, had already submitted to His Excellency a general order authorizing the training and payment for annual drill of all officers, non-commissioned officers and men who had already commenced training before that date. It was also fully intended that consideration should be given to any cases of individual hardship brought to notice, or to special difficulties which might result from the [DOT]working of new training establishments.
Finally, I venture to suggest that if you should think fit to make a public statement dealing with this question, it would be well to lay stress on the fact that the Militia Council, with yourself at its head, have in view a definite policy for the future of the militia, a policy which contemplates a considerable expansion of the force and its better adapta'tion to the defence requirements of the country, towards which they are steadily working. The elaboration of such a policy must necessarily take time and the full effect of measures decided upon cannot immediately be made apparent, but the decisions taken by the Militia Council are taken with that policy in mind, and it is hoped that final judgment upon the general question may be deferred until it is possible to outline that policy in greater detail.
(Sgd.) P. LAKE,
Chief of the General Staff.
5th June, 1905.
I will only add one word more. That is to read the general order referred to in this memorandum as having been issued in May by which those corps which had begun their annual training were permitted to go on with the same establishment which had been adopted in February, 1904.
These are the words of the General Order :
The officers and non-commissioned officers above referred to
[Stage Direction]
This is only a jjortion of it
[Stage Direction]
-of the corps reserve of city corps having already commenced training for the financial year, 1905-6, will be permitted to complete training and draw pay. In future special arrangements for their training, as members of the corps reserve, will be promulgated in general orders.
There has been no change in the establishment, but this has been done: Certain officers wfio were not required, who were supernumerary, have been placed in a column by themselves still conneoteid with the corps, but not to be called upon for active duty until a central camp i*
[Stage Direction]
established in which they can be instructed and in which they can take part or until they are specially called out each year.
['To-morrow,\nI expect the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) will be here. We may take one or two minor Bills ; then go into Committee of Supply, taking up the estimates of the Departments of Trade and Commerce and Public Works.']
David Tisdale: 
Frederick William Borden: Yes.


David Tisdale: Then I want the total number of the establishment. How many thousands of all arms are there ? I notice in the summary for 1903-4, the following
statement :
Officers	 3,567
Non commissioned officers..	7,516
Men	 31,400
Horses	 5,636
That is the complete establishment, as I understand ?


Frederick William Borden: Is that the militia report ?


David Tisdale: That is the Militia Report for 1904. The statement also shows a considerably less number trained.


Frederick William Borden: From what page is the hon. gentleman reading ?


David Tisdale: Page 26.


Frederick William Borden: The total establishment of February, 1904, which is the basis of this whole question was 46,043. It is proposed to drill this year something over 43,000, and tike difference is chiefly in officers and non-commissioned officers who were added in order to be trained for the contemplated expansion of the smaller company into the larger company. They are not struck off the role ; they are on the establishment ; they are simply placed in a column by themselves and notified that although they will drill this year, so far as the city regiments are concerned, in future they will not drill until authority is given for them to do so, and that will probably not be until the central camp is organized when the money necessary to train them will be properly expended.


David Tisdale: Then, all this talk in the papers about the reduction in the rank and file of the establishment proper, has no foundation whatever.


Frederick William Borden: Very little.


Frederick William Borden: 


David Tisdale: It makes a difference of only 3,000 all told ?


Frederick William Borden: Exactly.


David Tisdale: There were statements in the newspapers to the effect that the number of each regiment, except the city regiments, was to be reduced, and the militia force was discussing that very warmly.


Frederick William Borden: I have a letter here from the Adjutant General and I would like to give my authority, because I can only speak from information which I received from the department. This is addressed by the Adjutant General to the Chief of the General Staff :
Referring to your minute of the 2nd instant, herewith is a detailed statement showing the differences between the establishments authorized by the Governor General in Council on the 23rd of February, 1904, and those set forth in the special general order of the 9th May ultimo, together with the specific reasons for each item of difference. 2. In the training establishments, 1905, officers' servants should have been disallowed in all instances.
That is a case in which there was a mistake made in favour of the regiments, so to speak.	_
In the training establishments, 1905, officers' servants should have been disallowed in all instances in accordance with the settled policy that all men proceeding to camps of instruction should he thoroughly trained as soldiers, their being included in the artillery establishment was an error. 3. The addition of officers, servants and batmen in establishments authorized on the 23rd of February, 1904, was an entirely new departure, as in previous years officers made their own arrangements for servants in camp. It has, however, since been decided to add the same number to all arms for training for the present year and orders to that effect are about to be promulgated.
Possibly that is one of the points mentioned in the newspapers.
4. Your attention is especially invited to the following Omission, namely : bands and sergeant trumpeters. Both these items were omitted in the training establishments carefully prepared by Lord Dundonald for the past year and it was in consequence considered inadvisable to place them on the establishment for training for the present year until the matter of permanent establishments for the entire force which is now under consideration has been finally approved of.
I may say just here that I have been in the habit of going to camp with my regiment for the past twenty-five years, up to five or six years ago, and it was the invariable rule that the strength of the hand was deducted from the regiment so many per company.


David Tisdale: They were left om for the purpose of pay though.


Frederick William Borden: 
David Tisdale: The bon. gentleman is slightly misinformed as to that, because the matter took such a wide range that the rural battalions began to get uneasy too. They certainly got the impression that they were to be cut down, at all events in regard to the drill.


Frederick William Borden: I know that has been stated.
On looking into the question of corps having special establishments, I find that, in addition to the normal (so to speak) infantry establishment of 30 privates per company, city corps were allowed two stretcher bearers per company, total 32. General order No. 81, of June, 1904, authorized 19 privates per company extra for the 1st, 10th, 48th and 66th regiments, and 7 extra per company for the 13th regiment. This addition was reaffirmed by General Order No. 12 of January, 1905. Hence the 1st, 10th, 48th and 66th regiments should have 51 privates per company, while the 13th should have 39. It appears that the two stretcher bearers per company were accidentally omitted from the training establishments just promulgated, but, except for this omission, that training establishment gives both the normal regiments and these special regiments, which I have just mentioned, exactly the same number of privates per company which they had before its issue.
(Sgd.) PERCY LAKE.
So I flunk I may venture to hope that tbe difficulty is practically over, for the present year at least, and while there have undoubtedly been some errors made, they bave been chiefly misprints and typographical errors, which have now, as X understand, been corrected.
;Mr. TISDALE. I hope tbe bon. gentleman will not misunderstand me. I am as anxious as be can possibly be to bave this matter cleared up, so that the man in tbe
street will understand tbe situation ; because an impression bad gone abroad that a very serious change bad been made or was about to be made. From what one could see in the newspapers, and from any expressions from tbe force which one bad an opportunity to bear, it would have bad a very bad effect upon the force. That is tbe reason I wished tbe matter to be cleared up. I understand now, from what tbe bon. gentleman has read,, that tbe establishments, whether special or ordinary, are left alone, and that the only changes contemplated were tbe additions that would be made when tbe central camp arrangements were carried out.


Frederick William Borden: That is exactly the case.


David Tisdale: Assuming that to be so, was tbe general order which the bon. gentleman quoted from as promulgated under Lord Dundonald in reduction of tbe establishment, as it previously existed ? I ask that question because there were some camps organized where a very limited number were called on to drill. They were called skeleton camps. If I understand aright, that arrangement was only for one year.


Frederick William Borden: Two years.


David Tisdale: After that tbe full camp force, if mustered, would be drilled and paid. That is so now ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, almost precisely tbe establishment which was in existence before there was any skeleton drill in camp.


David Tisdale: That is very satisfactory so far, and I am sure it will be a great relief to tbe force to understand it fully. That is for tbe present. Now, I think tbe minister should be prepared to go further and tell us what is to happen in the future ; because one of the most injurious things to a force such as our active militia is any tendency to frequent changes.
I think a bad system well worked out is better than a good one which is constantly changed; because changes cause uncertainty among tbe officers and others interested, who bave to a large extent to supplement tbe expenditure of tbe government. Tbe keeping up of a force of tills nature depends altogether, as it should, upon voluntary action, and they should be informed whether any changes are contemplated, and, if so, what they are. While file minister has removed in a satisfactory way all question about the standing of tbe establishment, be has qualified bis statement by saying that that is the principle of tbe department for the present. Do I understand him to say that it is in contemplation, after this year possibly, to make a reduction ?


Frederick William Borden: No. If I may be allowed to interrupt my bon. friend,

I would call his attention to the memorandum in which General Lake says that he hopes that the public will be patient, because we are working out a general scheme or policy for the militia which cannot all be put forward at one time ; and I infer from that statement that the establishment which now exists is the establishment of which he approved, and the establishment which is to be continued.


David Tisdale: I do not propose to-night to go further than to get a full understanding of what, if any, changes are to be made in the force ; because I understand that it was arranged that a full discussion should take place later on under an item in the supplementary estimates, and I would prefer to discuss this at the time the minister makes his general statement.


Frederick William Borden: The understanding between the hon. member for North Toronto {Mr. Foster) and myself was that a large item should be retained in the main estimates on which a general discussion could be held.


David Tisdale: There are two items on capital account, and we might hold back one of those, so as to give other hon. members. who are not here and who desire to take part in the discussion, an opportunity to do so.


George Eulas Foster: The trouble seems to be that when we are ready the hon. minister is not. and when he is ready we are not. So far as I am concerned, with my large knowledge of military affairs, I would be glad to have the minister go right on and make his full statement, but there are some tyros in military matters not present who would be disappointed if we went on with this discussion.


Frederick William Borden: We seemed to do very well this afternoon.
Mr. FOSTER, Yes, we were too amiable. Better reserve one of the items in the main estimates until the end of this week or the beginning of next when we shall have possibly a fuller House.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I understand that some of the corps have been in the habit of recruiting over strength. In the past, it has been the practice of the government, I believe. to recognize that over strength by the issue of the extra clothing and pav and drilling either in camp or at local headquarters. Will the same practice be continued ?


Frederick William Borden: I am informed that as regards pay there has been no exception to the rule. In some of the city battalions, ambitious officers have had a larger number than that allowed, but no extra charge was involved as regards pav. Extra clothing, however, was issued. So Sir F. W. BORDEN.
far as the rural battalions are concerned, there has been no over strength except in the case of a few battalions a few years ago which had ten companies each instead of eight. Three or four yeai's ago a regulation was passed, reducing the number of companies to eight in all the militia, and I believe to-day there is only one rural battalion which has more than eight. In m;t own county my own battalion was reduced from ten companies to eight. There are certain regiments which for many years have been allowed over strength. One of these is the 66th of Halifax, but that has been over strength since its organization. Also the Queens Own, of Toronto, the 13th of Hamilton and the Prince of Wales of Montreal. In the latter case two regiments were amalgamated upon the understanding that while the strength of the one would not be equal to that of the two, still it would be larger than the normal establishment. That, however, is an exceptional case, and I am not in a position to say off-hand what our policy will be with regard to it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Royal Military College, $90,000.
["I am informed that as regards pay there has been no exception to the rule. In some of the city battalions, ambitious officers have had a larger number than that allowed, but no extra charge was involved as regards pav. Extra clothing, however, was issued. So Sir F. W. BORDEN.\nfar as the rural battalions are concerned, there has been no over strength except in the case of a few battalions a few years ago which had ten companies each instead of eight. Three or four yeai's ago a regulation was passed, reducing the number of companies to eight in all the militia, and I believe to-day there is only one rural battalion which has more than eight. In m;t own county my own battalion was reduced from ten companies to eight. There are certain regiments which for many years have been allowed over strength. One of these is the 66th of Halifax, but that has been over strength since its organization. Also the Queens Own, of Toronto, the 13th of Hamilton and the Prince of Wales of Montreal. In the latter case two regiments were amalgamated upon the understanding that while the strength of the one would not be equal to that of the two, still it would be larger than the normal establishment. That, however, is an exceptional case, and I am not in a position to say off-hand what our policy will be with regard to it."]
Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Is it the intention to dispense with the English officers and replace them by Canadians?


Frederick William Borden: Not at present.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Why not if we are training officers at our militia college?


Frederick William Borden: Only for the reason that it is very desirable to have as officers men actually in the army and who have had practical experience. It is difficult, perhaps, to find Canadians who measure up to all these conditions. We have in the imperial army a number of Canadians, graduates of the Royal Military College. I have a very strong hope and expectation that we shall have from among these not only professors for the college, but a commandant as well-perhaps not immediately, but in the future.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Under the system inaugurated a few years ago of retiring colonels of the militia after five years' service, we are bringing to the head of the regi ments a number of young men, while many are retired while still young men and capable of further service. I am repeating now some remarks I heard on Saturday at a review in Montreal. Of course colonels who are retired, many of course, have some line of business which they wish to follow. But it may happen that some of these men with a taste for military life, might show the qualifications to occupy some of the positions in our military college or in connection with a permanent force. I think it would be quite in accord-


anee with the policy announced by the Minister of Militia that such positions should be offered to these men wherever possible. These men are Canadians-they are Canadians all through. They have made sacrifices for the country-for we know that a man at the head of a battalion must sacrifice both money and time in the performance of his duty. Therefore, I would ask the minister if it would not be possible and advisable to offer some of these men positions in the military college that are now filled by imperial officers ? It would be a good thing for the service, and would be an inducement to such men to fit themselves for their work as head of a battalion because in so doing they would fit themselves for a career in connection with the military service.


Frederick William Borden: The suggestion is certainly worthy of consideration. And I have no hesitation In saying that there are men who have occupied the position of colonel commanding a regiment in Canada, who would be fit to fill such a position as the hon. gentleman refers to. But, with all respect for the ability and experience of men who have commanded battalions, I must say that I do not think the number who could qualify to fill such a position is very great. The head of the military college1 is a most important and responsible position and requires very high qualifications. The man who holds that position must be a man of first-rate education in every respect, and especially a man of good education and of experience in military matters, But I think there are men coming up now in our permanent force to whom the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Bergeron) would apply. I know of more than one man ini the permanent foi'ce who would be quite capable of filling that position as well as it can be filled. And I think the time is coming when we must consider that point seriously.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I do not suggest that any of the men to whom I refer would be fit at once to be. the head of the college. But they might be given positions from which they could advance in that direction. If it is the policy as I understand it to be, to give positions to our own men where possible-and it is a policy I approve, for I do not see how wre can expect sacrifices from these men if the only prosp#ct held out to them is to be colonel for five years and then drop out-it seems to me here is the opportunity to carry out that policy. I was glad to hear what the Minister of Militia said because it is in line with the view that I myself have been urging.


Frederick William Borden: In that connection I might say that arrangements (have been made by which officers of the permanent force will have the privilege
of attending the staff college in England- two going each year. The staff college course is two years. Therefore, in future we shall always have four officers attending the staff college for educational purposes. The examination to enter that college is a very stiff one, and the age limit is thirty-five years-none of m-eater age ,are allowed to enter. And the imperial government has offered to give officers of the Canadian permanent force who pass through that college creditably temporary employment in the imperial army. And surely there can be no question that from among these men we shall in future be able to select men who will suitably fill the professorial chairs of the Royal Military College.


George William Fowler: If the imperial government is giving positions to Canadians in the imperial army, we ought to be willing to offer a position or two to imperial officers.


Frederick William Borden: We>
are doing it.


George William Fowler: But I understood that some objection was raised to that. I fail to see any good ground for that objection.
It seems to me most important that the man at the head of the Royal Military College should be a man thoroughly equipped for his work ; and it does not make any difference whether he is a Canadian or an Englishman, or an Australian, so long as he is a British subject. I understand that a number of the professors in the military college are Canadians.
S r FREDERICK BORDEN. None of the military professors.


George William Fowler: But the others are ?


Frederick William Borden: They are oil Canadians.


George William Fowler: Perhaps it is better to have the commandant a gentleman who is in close touch with the imperial army, but I think that some of the military professors might be taken from our own permanent force if they have the special education. ^


Frederick William Borden: I do not understand my hon. friend from Beauhar-nois (Mr. Bergeron) to objdct to that. He suggested that we might have some Canadians to fill these positions. In this connection there is another observation that I might makei It is in contemplation to make an arrangement by which we may have exchanges, through the war office, of imperial officers for Canadian officers. So, if we have a place to offer to an imperial officer, a similar place would be offered to a Canadian officer when we have members of our permanent force qualified to fill the places. This will be carried out as soon as we have officers who have passed through the staff college. But it is a sine qua non-and I think quite properly so-

that our officers shall pass creditably through the staff college.


George William Fowler: As I understand it, no imperial officer can fill one of these positions unless he has passed through ttoei staff college, and certainly no exception should be made. So far as my observation goes one government has never been niggardly in offering young Canadians opportunities, to secure positions in the imperial service.


Uriah Wilson: This is a pretty large sum of money-$90,000.	AVill the
minister give us a statement of the details which make it up ?


Frederick William Borden: As I explained a large part of this money is paid back.


Uriah Wilson: I heard that statement made, but I did not hear definitely how much was paid back.


Frederick William Borden: The actual cost is $65,000.


Uriah Wilson: Hive us the details of that $65,000.


Frederick William Borden: The superior staff pay, estimate for the next year, that is the year we are considering now, is $30,000. The actual amount paid last year was $29,300, an increase of $700. The subordinate staff pay is $10,000. the same as last year. Clothing and clothing allowances, $10,000, the same as last year. Messing, that is supplying food. $13,000, the same as last year. Fuel, $5,000, $700 more than last year. I think some additional rooms had to be heated. Light. $100, same as last year. Printing and stationery, $4,000, $500 more than last year, more students, I suppose. Washing, $1,800, same as last year. The additional number of students do not seem to require any more washing. Advertising, $1,100. $100 more than last year, and $12 less than the year before.
4^ Mr. BERGERON. Advertising what?
.Sir FREDERICK BORDEN. The Royal Military College is advertised in some of the magazines and in the special issues of some of the larger newspapers.


George Eulas Foster: It does not do one bit of good.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEiN. I do not think it does. AA'e try to keep it down to the lowest possible limit, but my hon. friend knows how difficult it is to resist the blandishment of our friends of the press. All this advertising is done in Canada.
_ Md FOSTER, I will make this proposition. AA hen we were discussing this question. before, the minister professed himself willing to let this Military Council steer Sir P. W. BORDEN.
matters with a view to efficiency and economy. Let him submit that matter of advertising to the Military Council and abide by their decision as to whether they will spend $1,200 next year for that kind of work, especially after General Lake's plea for economy. I know how it comes about. Some little paper gets up a Clirist-*mas edition and comes to the minister and asks for an advertisement of the military college. Now that does not bring one student; in fact, to a sensible student seeing it advertised in that way, it is rather a damper than otherwise. The minister says he has more applications already than he can fill. Now let the minister do with that the same as he is doing with his drill shed sites-I am not speaking now of Kentville, I suppose that was started in before-let it go to the council, and if they say that it is necessary in order to make a thorough and efficient military system in this country, let him spend the money on advertisements and prop himself up by the council, giving them the responsibility.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is my hon. friend serious in that?


George Eulas Foster: I am perfectly serious. I know how hard it is to impress upon my right hon. friend any idea of economy with other people's money.
Sir AA'ILFRID LAURIER. But would he advise the Military Council to come down from high matters of strategy and defence to petty local patronage of that kind?


John Waterhouse Daniel: I see that one of the magazines is called ' Types of Canadian AA'omen,' that got $50.	1 do not know
whether it would bring many students.


Frederick William Borden: I think if I showed the hon. member for North Toronto the list of magazines, he would not disapprove of it. A good deal of this money goes to college quarterlies, to college magazines, and one is the ' Canadian Magazine.' I think the Montreal ' Gazette ' got out a special number and contained an advertisement. We have given this irrespective of political considerations. We have done it in some cases, I admit, to assist a college newspaper, and in that way we have attracted the attention of students in the other colonies. But I have no objection to accepting the hon. gentleman's suggestion, and perhaps it will help me in resisting applications, because it has taken a good deal of my time, I confess, to keep this item down to the point at which it i3 now.


Uriah Wilson: The hon. gentleman's explanation does not satisfy me. He seems to think that because an expenditure is the same as it was last year it must be all right. I do not think that is any reason at all.



Frederick William Borden: I merely stated the fact casually. My hon. friend can draw any conclusion he likes. Now I will finish the list. Transport and travelling expenses, $2,000-if my hon. friend will permit me to say it, the same as last year.


George Eulas Foster: Transport for what?


Frederick William Borden: To pay the expenses of the cadets to and fro when they return home. We also pay the travelling expenses of the professors when they are on duty.


George William Fowler: What travelling do they do?


Frederick William Borden: They sometimes go to Montreal and Toronto to attend meetings of the universities, meetings where engineering and scientific matters are dealt with. Sometimes the commandant or a professor might want to visit West Point academy; sometimes they are called here on business connected with the college, to confer with the department. There are twelve professors.
Mi-. FOWLER. Have they all occasion to travel?


Frederick William Borden: The principal part of this expenditure is for the cadets.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I find that the amount paid last year for the travelling expenses of the cadets was $029; so that the larger amount is not for the cadets.


George William Fowler: What are the tuition fees ?


Frederick William Borden: $100 a year.


George William Fowler: You charge a student a tuition fee of $100 a year, and under those circumstances I cannot see how it is that you pay his travelling expenses. It does seem to be an anomaly. I could understand if you give him free tuition that you might carry him to college and take him back home again ; but when you charge him a tuition fee, why should you pay his travelling expenses ?


Frederick William Borden: I suppose it is no answer to say so. but we are simply continuing the conditions which have existed for thirty years.


George William Fowler: Does it not seem rather absurd ?


Frederick William Borden: I confess that I have not looked into it personally.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I know some cadets who have gone to the college and returned home again whose expenses were paid by-themselves.


Frederick William Borden: They are all treated alike. There is a regulation.


George William Fowler: How many cadets are there ?


Frederick William Borden: About 95.


George William Fowler: Do you pay the travelling expenses of each to yud from his home ?


Frederick William Borden: So I am informed.


George William Fowler: I think there must be something wrong about that. I think the travelling expenses must be paid when the cadets are taken away somewhere. How many times a year do you transport them to and fro ?


Frederick William Borden: Once.


George William Fowler: You bring them to the college and send them home ?


Frederick William Borden: Send them home.


George William Fowler: One trip ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes.


George William Fowler: If you pay the expenses of one trip, I do not see how it is that you do not pay the cadet for his holidays as well. I think you had better get the Militia Council at this college, and see if they cannot wipe out a few of these anomalies.


Frederick William Borden: At what page of the Auditor General's Report does that appear ?


John Waterhouse Daniel: Q-91. There were only travelling expenses paid for fourteen cadets last year.


Frederick William Borden: Those were the graduates. I quote from the Royal Alili-tary College regulations, regulation No. 22 :
An allowance for travelling expenses at the rate of four cents a mile for the number of miles beyond 500 necessarily travelled between the headquarters of the military district in which he resides and the college will be paid to each cadet at the time he is first admitted, and a similar allowance for travelling expenses to the headquarters of the same military district will be paid to each cadet who has completed the full period of the college and obtained a certificate of good conduct. No allowance for travelling expenses will be granted to those who reside less than 500 miles from the college.
That seems a reasonable and proper provision.


George William Fowler: That Is not the same proposition that was explained to us a moment ago.


Frederick William Borden: The object is to put a man living in British Columbia, or in some other distant portion of tlie country, on the same footing as tlie man living in Montreal.
Mr. FOWLER, That is an altogether different thing. It was equalizing the difference between distant and near points.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Does this mean bringing a cadet to the college and paying all his expenses back home after his course is over ?


Frederick William Borden: That is only at the beginning and the end. In addition to that. I am reminded that the expenses of the professors are paid to and from this country, and my hon. friend will see that is quite an item.


George William Fowler: That will scarcely account for this large amount. Lou are not changing professors every year.


Frederick William Borden: One or two change every year. They do not all go out at once. There is one going out this year and another going out next year, and so on.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Although this is a standing vote, it may not all be spent in one year ?


Frederick William Borden: It may not all be spent in the year. In the coming year I think that three are going out. The expenses of cadets attending annual camp are paid, and sometimes cadets are sent out to do work for the college. They go to McGiil University annually to compete with some of the students there, and we pay their expenses. Every dollar of this expenditure is accounted for and is scanned by the Auditor General.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has it always been like that ?


Frederick William Borden: It has been the same from the beginning. My hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson)'wants some more information, and I want to satisfy him in regard to the vote for equitation. That is a new charge. It only began last year, when a special vote of $5,000 was taken. That is for teaching young men to ride. The reason for this vote being taken is this : Formerly the horses of the artillery were used, but it was found very inconvenient to interfere with the artillery operations,- and it was decided that it would be very much better to construct stables and let the college own its own horses, I think myself it is a very much better regulation.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How many horses have been provided ?


Frederick William Borden: Eight.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has the department bought horses, or are they rented ?


Frederick William Borden: This is only a provision made this year. Horses will be bought. As a matter of fact, thev have not yet been bought.


George Eulas Foster: I do not want the hon. minister, on that advertising business, to take laurels to himself that are not altogether warranted. I notice by the pay-Mr. FOWLER.
ments that no Conservative publications have been favoured.


Frederick William Borden: Last year must have been an off-year.


George Eulas Foster: I think that is likely a sample of most of the years. The Book Lovers' Library gets $00.


Frederick William Borden: That is not it.


George Eulas Foster: That is for the purpose of getting very valuable and ready, up-to-date books for the students. I have no objection to that at all, because it is really an advantage to have them get a circulating library. The 'Canadian Mining Review'-


Frederick William Borden: That is not a Liberal paper.


George Eulas Foster: That is for the pure purpose of science, I suppose, $3 ; Halifax ' Chronicle.' which, I think, is pretty well determined in its politics, gets $50. The Montreal ' Herald -well, there may be some doubt about the (Montreal ' Herald,' but I have no doubt that $50 will fix it all right. Then there is the Ottawa ' Dane-brog.' $30 : that is a concession to outside neighbours, and no doubt that brings many a student to the college who would not otherwise find his way there. The ' Free Press ' may be a semi-independent paper, but it does not often show it. The ' Parliamentary Guide ' is, of course, not in politics, although the particular gentleman who provides it has some very strong ideas of political life, $50. The ' Rideau Press ' gets $200. What is the ' Rideau Press ' ? That seems to be a special paper. That must have a very wide circulation. Why should the ' Rideau Press ' get $200 when a servant of so many years' standing and so faithful as the ' Free Press ' only gets $50 ?


Frederick William Borden: I think that was an accumulation for several years. I had some doubt as to whether I should give authority to pay the bill and it was finally compromised. The advertisement has been withdrawn.


George Eulas Foster: Was that cut down by the Military Council ?


Frederick William Borden: I am responsible for that.


George Eulas Foster: W'hat is the Rideau Press?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: It is the paper called ' Events.'


George Eulas Foster: Why should it appear in the Auditor General's Report under the pseudonym of the-'Rideau Press?'


Frederick William Borden: I suppose .that is the form in which the bill was rendered.


George Eulas Foster: The Quebec ' Daily Telegram ' has $10 added to the general $50,


JTTXE 6. 1905
[Stage Direction]
and of course the bright rays that come from the ' Soieii ' entitles it to $80, or more than half better than the ' Free Press ' or the ' Herald.' Then there is the ' Military Gazette ; ' there might be something in that.
Frederick William Borden: I do not think any one in charge of that has been friendly to me.


George Eulas Foster: Then there is the good Toronto ' Globe.' I hope the minister will add a little to the ' Globe ' for this year. The peculiar service it has been performing of late ; the way it swallowed itself in order to convince the government that it is friendly to it, deserves at least an addition of $10 if the Military Council would only pass it. Then there is ' Saturday Night.' I am afraid there is no hope for ' Saturday Night.' ' Saturday Night ' has seen its last $50 from the Military Council, but I suppose the Toronto ' Star ' will continue to have its $50 ?


Frederick William Borden: It is not too bad that.


George Eulas Foster: No ; they all have a political complexion.


Frederick William Borden: Oh, my, no.


George William Fowler: Why should you advertise in the ' Parliamentary Guide ? ' I did not think any one reads that except members of parliament and their wives ?


George Eulas Foster: It is to inform the members of parliament.


George William Fowler: Surely the members of parliament know about the Royal Military College. This publication known as ' Events ' and appearing here under the alias of the 'Rideau Press' is the property of the same individual who edits the ' Parliamentary Companion, so that this gentleman got $250.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: ' Events ' is not published any more.


George Eulas Foster: Is it dead ?


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: The payment ceases because the paper itself ceases.


Frederick William Borden: The payment ceased last year.


George Eulas Foster: Was the $200 a contribution for funeral expenses ?


Frederick William Borden: No, the paper is still published I am told.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I don't think so.


Frederick William Borden: It was published last week.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Has the Minister of Militia any information to give about the selection of a site in Montreal for a military school ? We hear a great many stories
on the street, but I would like to have something authoritative from the minister ?


Frederick William Borden: 
Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: I am very glad to hear the statement made by the Minister of Militia, and I trust the deputation from the city of Montreal -will wait on him as soon as possible, because I strongly favour the idea of having a military school and a permanent corps established in Montreal so

that the regiments in that city anti its vicinity may be afforded facilities of instruction. Would my hon. friend say what is the school he intends to have in Montreal when the question of site is decided ? How many men will be there, and what is going to be done there altogether ?


Frederick William Borden: There will be a company of infantry to begin with. I think there will also be a company of garrison artillery, but of that I cannot speak positively at present. There will be a certain number of engineers, of course.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: How many men altogether 1


Frederick William Borden: Between 200 or 300 of a permanent force.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: And the different officers of the battalions in that district will go there to train ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, whenever they require to do so.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: So that there will be altogether probably 300 or 400 men ?


Frederick William Borden: I would think so.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What will become of the infantry school in St. John ? I understand that' it will be devoted entirely to cavalry ?


Frederick William Borden: Yes. At St. John there will be stationed permanent-1;, a squadron of cavalry-120 men and horses.


George William Fowler: Under this item I would like the minister to provide me with some information in regard to the new rifle range which is being built at Sussex. For instance, who is the inspector of the rifle range, what are his qualifications for the post, what will his pay be, and how much time is he supposed to devote per day to the inspection? When the armoury was built at Sussex, the inspector of that work was a person who had no qualification whatever for the position. He was not a builder or contractor in either stone work or wood work, but a merchant tailor. I trust that the minister has taken the precaution in this particular ease to procure a man for the position who has some qualification for it, and therefore I would like him to say who is appointed?


Frederick William Borden: I cannot remember the name, but it seems to me that the gentleman appointed is a lawyer, a prominent member of the militia, a very good rifle shot, and one who has devoted a good deal of time to that branch of the work. I may be wrong, but I will bring the information which my hon. friend wants.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: 


George William Fowler: The ipinister may be right as to the profession, but he is wrong as to the qualifications. He has evidently been misinformed. I would like him to say who recommended the gentleman. Was it the person who has the patronage of the county?


Frederick William Borden: The officer of the department is supposed to have satisfied himself as to the fitness of the man before recommending him. However. I will look into this case and give my hon. friend all the information I can.


George William Fowler: I would like also' to be informed as to the length of time the contract is supposed to occupy. The minister will remember that the building of the armoury took about four times as long as the contract provided for. The contract price was $4,000 and there was something like $1,900 paid for inspection.


Frederick William Borden: That must have been done in the Public Works Department.
Mr. FOWLER, It was. I do not assume that the minister did that, but I want to warn him.
For manufacture of reserve ammunition at Dominion arsenal, $75,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I see that the $75,000 purchase 3,000,000 rounds of ammunition, making the charge 2i cents a round. How does that price compare with the price of ammunition of the same kind he has been in the habit of purchasing? Does the country make anything out of this manufacture, or is the price the same, or more, or less?


Frederick William Borden: The only way in which we could arrive at correct information in regard to that wouid be by comparing tbe cost writb tbe price in England; because it would not be fair to compare this ammunition with ammunition made by tbe trade in Canada. This is a very different article. It is a special article made up to a certain strength, Very carefully prepared, with the greatest possible precaution. I am told that the cost is less than tbe English price, or certainly not more, and much less than tbe cost in tbe United States.


George William Fowler: I think it was stated last session by tbe minister that be was going to have another of these cartridge factories established. Does he propose to provide for that in tbe estimates?


Frederick William Borden: What I said last year was that I thought the time had arrived for the establishment of another cartridge factory, but I would favour the idea of its being constructed by the trade. I said that there were people in England who had been making inquiries, and that I felt disposed to consider a pro-

posal which I expected to get from them, provided tliev would agree to manufacture in Canada all the explosives which we would require for our own factory, and which they would use in their own. Negotiations have been proceeding, but they have not materialized very much. I hope that- within six months the matter will have reached a business point.


George William Fowler: The idea is that they may come here and establish it?


Frederick William Borden: Yes. at or near Ottawa.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I see that the total amount expended on this factory is nearly |225,000. How much ammunition does the minister get?


Frederick William Borden: About nine million rounds. There will be a further vote of $05,000 in the supplementaries for next year. Nine years ago the amount manufactured was 1,500.000 rounds.


George William Fowler: At how much increased .expense?


Frederick William Borden: The cost is $25 a thousand rounds and it used to be $30. Working extra hours, the capacity to-day is easily twenty million rounds. We can actually manufacture twenty million rounds, but without any difficulty nine million rounds, working hours nine a day.


George William Fowler: Are these sent to the stores in the different districts?


Frederick William Borden: Yes.


George William Fowler: Do you keep a reserve supply in the different districts all tin* time?


Frederick William Borden: The largest reserve is in Quebec. It is not desirable to say too much about this, but I can assure iny hon. friend we are looking after that matter, and there is a proper reserve at every point where it is likely to be required.


Mr FOWLER.: At the time the scare was on about the Welland canal, there were no cartridges within fifty miles of the spot.


Frederick William Borden: That was the old Snider-Enfield cartridge. I do not think that, will occur again.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is this the Lee-Eufield ammunition?


Frederick William Borden: Yes, the new Ross rifles take the same cartridge, number 303.


George William Fowler: I understand that rifle is defective.


Frederick William Borden: Experts who have examined the rifle, mark II, which is
an improvement on the first, say it is one of the best, if not the best, in the world. M e have added to mark II many improvements which have been the result of experience.


George William Fowler: I am glad to hear that the government made a contract with Sir Charles Ross to manufacture another rifle to replace rifle number 1, which was defective.


Frederick William Borden: That is scarcely a fair inference. The original rifle compared very favourably with the imperial service rifle, but since then changes have been made and we have a rifle which cannot be excelled.


George William Fowler: What did you do with the rifles already made?


Frederick William Borden: A thousand rifles were issued to the Mounted Police and 500 to the Marine and Fisheries Department, but none had been issued to the militia. The chief change is in the back sight so there is very little difficulty in placing the new sight upon the mark I rifle. I have a telegram saying that after the 1st July, rifles will be issued at the rate of from 100 to 150 a day.


George William Fowler: I have seen some criticisms of that rifle.


Frederick William Borden: There were very severe criticisms of the first rifle and those criticisms I submitted to Colonel Cotton. Colonel Cotton went himself to Quebec to institute a most searching investigation, and he says that in every case the criticism was not fair, and rifle mark two is free from all the defects mentioned in that criticism.
To promote dairying interests by advances for milk and cream, to be recouped out of the proceeds of sales of such butter and cheese, to be placed to the credit of the consolidated revenue fund, $40,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This stood over at the request of the hon. member for St. John who wanted an explanation of the method of dealing with those advances by the Agriculture Department. On looking up the item, I find that the amount of $1,000 in the public account has nothing to do with this vote. That is a special sum sent to my department by the Orange River Colony government to pay for some live stock purchased in Canada to be sent to South Africa. The item happened to be, at the end of the fiscal year, in the hands of the government, and thus appeared in the public accounts. With regard to the $10,000 all tills money is available on a special credit given by the Auditor General. The account is kept quite distinct from the ordinary business of the branch.

When revenue from the sale of butter is received, it is deposited to the credit of the vote of $40,000. For every dollar which is paid out of this vote, an equal sum must be, and is, returned to it. The amount may be expended two or three times over in the season. There is a statement in regard to this in the Auditor General's Report, page H-101 governing credit and debit account. It will be seen here that although the vote was only $40,000, the expenditure was $126,062,43-that is, the amount was paid out nearly three times over. The revenue was $156,320.76. This apparently extraordinary condition is due to the fact that a large amount had been paid in on account of sales of butter. The account runs for the season and not for the fiscal year, and the balance as on 1st July appears in the Auditor General's Report." But that balance will be entirely misleading as regards the season, because it appears right in the middle of the season for which the money is used by the department. But, of course, the statement of the account has to close at the end of the fiscal year. The revenue credited to this account does not appear in the public accounts, because the money is never actually expended, and the vote itself is not shown as an expenditure against the Agricultural Department in the public accounts. Page 33 of part 3, Public Accounts ending 30th June, 1004, shows the total expenditure for the Commissioner's Branch, Agriculture and Dairying, to be $219,993.70. This is the expenditure of the vote of $220,-
000.	There is no item in the public accounts reports as to this $40,000 vote.
I believe this is a full explanation of what my hon. friend (Mr. Daniel) desired, and therefore I would ask the committee to pass the appropriation.


John Waterhouse Daniel: My attention was called to the statement in the Auditor General's Report and I have looked it over. The balance to the debit of the account amounts to $10.63 which has been placed to the credit of the department. But I notice a rather peculiar thing with regard to it, and that is that this is not a statement for one year or one season, but includes the summer season of 1902, the winter season of 1902-3, the summer season of 1903, the winter season of 1903-4 and the summer season of 1904. The revenue for the winter season of 1903-4 and the summer season of 1904 was $23,610 and the expenditure $20,420. And that would make a difference of $3,190 for one year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The items of 1902 and
1902-3 appear because some of the payments for butter which had been sold in those seasons was not received until after July 1st, 1903. This is the explanation given me by the accountant.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 


John Waterhouse Daniel: Another reason for the increased revenue is that in the summer season of 1902 there appears a revenue from Innisfail of $1,167, and no expenditure.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: - That is a case such as I explained-the receipt of money for butter sold in 1902, the money coming in after the end of that fiscal year.


George William Fowler: What is this money used for ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is placed at the disposal of the department to make advances to the patrons of the creameries we run in the Northwest. The whole matter was explained last night, but I had not a full explanation in answer to the question of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Daniel).


George William Fowler: Does the minister propose to continue this work after the establishment of the new provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think we will close up the work there within the next year or two.


George William Fowler: And hand it over to the new provinces as was done in the case of the eastern provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, as soon as they are able to take it over.
Some resolutions reported.


ADJOURNMENT-THERMOGRAPH RECORDS.
[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.
Sydney Arthur Fisher: I beg to lay on the table a supplementary return to an order of the House dated 2Uth March last, relating to Thermograph records used in the transportation of perishable products in cold storage and the contracts entered into with steamship companies for installing cold storage. I may explain that I am not laying every contract on the table, but I am giving specimens of the contracts. The other contracts are exactly similar to those included in the return.
Ml1. BARKER. What business will be taken up to-morrow?


Wilfrid Laurier: To-morrow,
I expect the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) will be here. We may take one or two minor Bills ; then go into Committee of Supply, taking up the estimates of the Departments of Trade and Commerce and Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.05 p.m.
[Stage Direction]

Wednesday, June 7, 1905.