1905-02-20

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 64) respecting Central Counties Railway Company.-Mr. Stewart.
Bill (No. 65) respecting the James Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Talbot.
Bill (No. 66) to amend the Criminal Code of 1892, respecting appeals and summary convictions.-Mr. Porter by Mr. Sam Hughes.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman whether any cabinet changes have taken place since the session of 1904 ? I do not know that there are any which I have in mind, with the exception of the admission into the cabinet of the Hon. A. B. Aylesworth, a very prominent member of the Ontario bar. It was stated during the campaign in the newspapers that Mr. Aylesworth had become a member of the government, and I would like to know whether or not this statement was well founded, and whether or not Mr. Aylesworth is still a member of the administration.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Some time last fall, before the election, I approached, with the concurrence of my colleagues and the approval of His Excellency the Governor General, Mr. Aylesworth and asked him to become a member of the cabinet without portfolio. Mr. Aylesworth agreed to my proposition, and entered into the contest at once and ran for the county of Durham. But he was not sworn in as a member of the cabinet before he entered upon the campaign. He had not time to come to Ottawa before the election to be sworn in, so that he has never been a member of the cabinet and is not now. He was unsuccessful in the election, and after the election I had an interview with him and again asked him to come into the cabinet. He told me that, under the circumstances, so long as he had not stated whether or not he would run again, he was not prepared to be sworn in. I hope, however, that at an early date Mr. Aylesworth will take his position in the cabinet.



REPORTS OF RETURNING OFFICERS.

Robert Laird Borden: Will my right hon. friend bring down the special reports which I see must have been made by the returning officers for the electoral divisions of McKenzie and Dauphin. The hon. gentleman. will, no doubt, remember that under the terms of the Northwest Territories the Representation Act provision is made that, whenever, owing to unforeseen accident,

delays or otherwise, the proclamation cannot be postponed in time to leave the requisite number of days between the posting and the day of polling, the returning officer may fix another day for nomination, which day shall be the nearest possible day after allowing the number of days during which said proclamation is required to be posted before such nomination. There is a provision in the statute that in every such case, the returning officer must make a special report to the clerk of the Crown in Chancery as to the cause of the postponement. A similar provision is made in the Dominion Elections Act of 1900. I presume that special reports under these provisions must have been made with regard to the elections in the electoral divisions of Mackenzie and Dauphin. I think it would be right that, in both cases, the special report of the returning officer should be laid on the table of this House. I will send over to my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfred Laurier) the memorandum X have, which, I have no doubt, will assist him in obtaining the information which I have asked for.



PAYMENT FOR BALLOT BOXES.

Mr. J. B. MORIN.: X would like to ask the Prime Minister if he has a reply for Mr. Cayouette, P.M., at Sainte Claire regarding the ballot boxes of which I spoke the other day. The gentleman wants an answer, and, if the Prime Minister can give me any information I shall be glad to have it. If not, I must reply to Mr. Cayouette advising him that there is no information.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say that the reply I have to give to my hon. friend (Mr. Morin) will not be very satisfactory to Mr. Cayouette. I understood from "the letter he had written to my hon. friend, that Mr. Cayouette received, in 1891, certain ballot boxes which were handed to him by a Dr. Lesage, returning officer, and that they have been there ever since. I can only say that, so far as my information goes, we have no information as to the action of Dr. Lesage, whether Dr. Lesage deposited the ballot boxes with Mr. Cayouette does not appear from anything we can find in the records of the government.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I can tell the Prime Minister that the boxes are there. Last fall, when the returning officer for the county of Dorchester was appointed he came to me and asked me if I knew where he could get ballot boxes made, and I told him that he could get them at Mr. Cayouette's; and he went and got four, Mr. Cayouette has yet twenty-one in his possession. He wantte to dispose of them and he has no way to do so. I spoke to the Postmaster General (Sir William Muloclc) about it in 1897, and
he told me that he would see to it. But I suppose he has not done so.


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: Speaking of the correction, -I thiuk that, under the law, Mr. Cayouette would be within his rights and obligations if he sent the boxes to the sheriff or registrar of the county.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: That is what the Postmaster General told me, and I told Mr. Cayouette of that, and he asks : Who will pay me for doing that? And the matter stands as it was.



STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND.

Mr. A. MARTIN.: Before the Orders of the Day are called, as the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine) is in his place, I would like to ask him if he has any tidings of the movement of the steamers ' Stanley ' and ' Minto ' plying between the provinces of Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. I understand that there has been no crossing there for three weeks.


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: I understand from the report in the department that the two steiners are still unable to cope with the ice between the island and the mainland.


Alexander Martin: I would suggest to the minister that there is, as I understand a winter boat, or ice-crusher at present in Quebec, and not doing 'very much-the steamer ' Montcalm.' I would like to aslt if there is any possibility of sending that steamer to their rescue.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I would give the same answer as to the other question. It would be impossible to send an ice-breaker-down under the present circumstances, especially from Montreal, because the St. Lawrence is blocked at the present moment.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
On the order :
House in Committee on Bili (No. 12) respecting the Ottawa Electric Company.-Mr. Galli-her.
Mr. MAiCPHERSON. I am asked by the promoter of the Bill to request that it be set over until Wednesday, March 1.
Mr.. SPEAKER. Stand.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 60) to incorporate the Aigoma Copper Range Railway Company.-Mr. Dyment.
Bill (No. 61) to incorporate the Lebonk and Thunder Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Bole.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No, 62) respecting the Edmonton, Yukon and Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Lamont.
Bill i No. G3) to incorporate the Brantford and "Woodstock Railway Company.-Mr. Schell (Oxford).

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 27) respecting certain patents of the Facer Solid Steel Car Wheel Company, of Perth, Limited.
On section 1,
have been allowed to lapse, we have used a uniform section with regard to the rights of persons who have begun to manufacture in the meantime. Is that reservation of the rights of such persons which has been made in this Bill, of precisely the same character as the one upon which we have acted ?
Mr. FISHER.: Yes, the clerk of the committee was instructed to draw it up in accordance with the usual section.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say that when this Bill came up in committee I, as the minister in charge of the administration of the Patent Act, took exception to the general provisions of tlie Bill as presented. It seemed to ask for a far too long an extension of time ; and in connection with one of the patents, at all events, there was no need of an extension of time at all. The Bill as originally printed asked to deal with five different patents, all of them more or less dependent on each other. One of them has still a term of nine years to go ; one of them through inadvertence made in the renewal, was dead ; the three others expire next fall. On 'several occasions this House has authorized an extension of the life of patents under circumstances very similar to those surrounding these patents, namely, that while the patent had existed for a length of time, nobody had been able to make use of it or really to take the matter up and utilize it for the benefit of the public. That is the case with these patents. A suggestion was made that we reinstate the patent which had expired through inadvertence, as has been commonly done in the House under similar circumstances, and that we should extend the time of the patents which will expire next year and make the life of these patents coextensive with the life of the patent which is still in existence and has a term of years to run.


Mr. FOSTER.: That is the one having nine years to run ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes. That proposal was accepted with some hesitation by the promoters of the Bill, and the committee adopted it unanimously and reported the Bill amended so as to accomplish that object.


George Eulas Foster: The four subsequent patents are all for improvements or amendments to the original one ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, they are all connected together, they are all dealing with car wheels and are more or less dependent on each other. The full use of the patent which is still in existence cannot be enjoyed by the patentees unless they have also the other patents ; that is to say, this patent is more or less dependent on the others.


Robert Laird Borden: In dealing with these applications to extend patents which Mr. SPEAKER.



MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL.

[Stage Direction]
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) delivered a message from His Excellency the Governor General.
Mr. SPEAKER read the message as follows :
Grey.
Gentlemen of the House of Commons :-
I have received with much pleasure the address which you have adopted in reply to the speech with which I opened the session of parliament, and I thank you for it heartily.
Government House, Ottawa,
16th February, 1905.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. LALOR-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Were the buildings and constructions of the government in connection with the Dominion lighthouse depot at Prescott erected by contract ?
2.	If so, were public tenders called ; in what newspapers and on what dates were they advertised ?
3.	What tenders were received ; what were the offers and who received the contract ?
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	There were two small new buildings erected and only repairs made to old buildings, and this was done by day labour by the men employed at the depot.
2.	Answered by the first.
3.	Answered by the first.


ADULTERATION OF MAPLE PRODUCTS.
[Stage Direction]
.Mr. BE LAND asked :
1.	Is the government in a position at the present time to control the production of maple sugar and maple syrup in Canada ?
2.	Is the government aware that the manufacture of those products is carried on in the large cities on an extensive scale, and that at Montreal at this, moment, under the designations of * maple sugar from Beauce ' and ' maple syrup from Beauce * articles that contain only a slight proportion of maple sap are offered for sale ?	'
3.	Is it the intention of the government to check this practice which is calculated to ruin the reputation that the county of Beauce rightly enjoys for its maple products ?

Hon.  L. P.@: BRODEUR (Minister of Inland
Revenue) :
1.	No.
2.	The department is not aware that the articles ' maple sugar from Beauce' and ' maple syrup from Beauce ' containing only a slight proportion of maple sap are offered for sale in Montreal, but the matter will he immediately inquired into.
3.	The department is taking active steps to prevent the adulteration of maple sugar and maple syrup. Already prosecutions have been instituted in cases where the ' Adulteration Act ' has been violated.


CHILD IMMIGRATION.
Mr.   U.@: WILSON-by Mr. W. J. Roche-asked :
1.	What assistance, if any, is given by the government to any person or persons bringing children to Canada from the old country ?
2.	How many have been brought into this country during the fiscal year 1904, and of what age ? How many males and how many females?
3.	From what sources in the old country do these immigrants come ?
4.	To what institutions were they sent, and how many to each ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (for the Minister of the Interior.
1.	There are two classes of children brought to Canada by Philanthropic Societies. (a.) Children from workhouses and industrial institutions, on whom no bonus or commission is paid. (b.)i Children from private homes and educational institutions on whom it has been the practice since 1873-4, to pay a commission of ?2 per head.
2.	2,212, of whom 525 were bonus children : 443 males and 82 females, their ages ranging from 5 to 18 years.
3.	Private homes, educational, industrial institutions and workhouses.
4.	To the following receiving homes in
Canada :	Bristol Emigration Society, St.
John, N.B., 40 ; Canadian Catholic Emigration Society, Ottawa, Out., 106 ; Dr. T. Bowman Stephenson, Hamilton, 60 ; Miss. Macpherson, Stratford, 142 ; Church of England, Waifs and Strays Society, Sherbrooke, 54 ; Church of England, Niagara-on-the-Lake, 29 ; J. W. C. Fagan's Home, Toronto, 49 ; Rev. Robert Wallace, Belleville, 94 ; Mrs. Birt, Kuowlton, P.Q., 106 ; J. T. Middlemore, Halifax, N.S., 130 ; Dr. Barnardo's Homes, Toronto, Peterboro, Ontario, Winnipeg and Russell, Manitoba, 1,188 ; Catholic Emigrating Association, Montreal, P.Q., 206 ; Working Boys' Home, Lennoxville, P.Q., 8.


DELAY IN PRINTING SUPREME COURT REPORTS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	Is the government aware that numerous complaints have been made by members of the
bar in regard to the delay in printing the Supreme Court reports ?
2.	What is the cause of said delay, and what steps have been taken by the government to remove this cause of complaint ?
3.	Has the registrar of the Supreme Court power to have said reports printed where he deems expedient ? If not, why not ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	No complaints have been heard, excepting recently concerning a delay in issuing the current number of the Supreme Court Reports.
2.	(a.) The cause is the pressure on the bindery in consequence of the early session. To prevent delaying the House it was necessary to give precedence to departmental reports. During the last two months the pressure has been very exceptional.
(b.) For years the accommodation at the bureau has been insufficient. Changes are now in progress to extend the space for the bindery. In the meantime the departmental reports for this year are nearly all issued. The delayed number of Supreme Court Reports will be issued early this week.
3.	The Registrar of the Supreme Court in common with other officials has not the power under the law to place printing outside of the Printing Bureau.


BLANK BALLOTS FOR DOMINION ELECTIONS.
Mr. SPROULE asked :: 1.	Adverting to the answer given by the First Minister on Monday, February 13th, regarding the method of issuing blank ballot papers to returning officers, what was the date of the complaint received from the returning officer in South Lanark ?
2.	What was the date of the complaint received from the returning officer in the city of Ottawa?
3.	When were the additional thousand ballots sent to him ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) :: 1.	The letter making the complaint in relation to South Lanark was dated October 29, 1904.
2.	The complaint of shortage made at Ottawa was by telephone one or two days before October 31.
3.	The request for additional ballots was made on October 31, and the additional 1,000 was sent on that date.
4.	On November 21, 1,499 unused printed ballots were returned to the King's Printer.


I. C. R.-EMPLOYMENT OF MR. F. B. CHAPMAN.
Mr. FOSTER asked :: 1.	Was F. B. Chapman, now fuel inspector on the Intercolonial Railway, an employee of the road at any time previous to his present employment ? If so, in what capacity, and for what length of time ?
2.	Was he at any time discharged from the service ? If so, when, and for what cause ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 1 and 2. There is no Fuel Inspector on the Intercolonial Railway named F. B. Chapman ; there is, however, a young man named F. B. Chapman, who was employed in the service as checker and clerk from June 1891 until February 1897, when he was dropped on account of reduction of staff, and who has lately been re-employed as a clerk in the Mechanical Accountant's Office.


JOACHIM GODBOUT, LIGHTHOUSE-KEEPER. ST. LAURENT.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mi'. Barker-asked :
1.	Is the government aware that one Joachim Godbout, a lighthouse-keeper, in the employ of the government at St. Laurent, Island of Orleans, took an active part in the last federal election, to the degree of insulting publicly in public meetings the opposition candidate and his friends ?
2.	Is it the policy of the government to tolerate such conduct on the part of its employees ?
Hon. R. PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	No.
2.	No. The policy of the government in this regard has been stated on more than one occasion.


EXPENDITURE BY J. HUOT, MAYOR OF L'ANGE GARDIEN.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	During the course of the months of September, October or November last, did the government, or any other department of the government, or any officer of any of its departments, write to J. C. Huot, Esq., mayor of 1'Auge Gar-dien, informing him that a sum of $600, or any other sum, had been placed at his disposal for the carrying on of certain works along the beach in front of the said parish ?
2.	If so, has the sum in question been sent to the said J. C. Huot, and if not, why not ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER- (for the Minister of Public Works) :
1.	On the 12th October 1904, Jos. Huot, at L'Ange Gardien, was authorized to expend the sum of $000 in removing boulders from the beach.
2.	Pay-lists and accounts have not yet been received and consequently no money has been paid.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	During the course of September, October or November last, was a certain sum of money sent to or placed at the disposal of any person in the parish of St. Francois, Island of Orleans, by the government, or by any department of the government, for repairs to be done to the wharf of the said parish, or for any other works ?
2.	If so, what sum, and to whom ?
3.	Has the money been expended, and has the person in question rendered an account thereof?
George Eulas Foster: 


Rt Hon.   S@: No


RESIGNATION AND APPOINTMENT TO SENATE OF MR. JUSTICE CHOQUETTE
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	What is the date of the resignation of Honourable P. A. Choquette as puisne judge of the Supreme Court for the province of Quebec ?
2.	What is the date of the nomination of the said Honourable P. A. Choquette as a member of the Senate ?
Rt.   H@: Mr. Justice Choquette in the month of September last sent a letter of resignation to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister was under the impression that he had immediately sent it to the Department of Justice, but since this question was asked he found that he had not done so. The letter was somewhat mislaid. Mr. Justice Choquette was appointed a senator on the 30th September, 1904, which ipso facto vacated his judgeship.


PIER AT GRAND BEND.
Mr. ARMSTRONG asked :: 1.	Has there been any delay in building the j pier at Grand Bend ?
2.	If so, what is the cause of the delay, and when will the construction of the said pier be commenced ?
3.	When will the pier and dredging be completed ?
4.	What is the estimated cost of the said pier and dredging ?
5.	How much has been expended on the said pier to date ?
6.	Who is the inspector on behalf of the government for the construction of the said work?
7.	What salary does he reoeive ?
8.	When did his services begin ?
9.	How much has been paid to him, and how much has he earned to date ?


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (for the Minister of Public Works) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Delay due to difficulties experienced in procuring materials ; work will be started next spring, as early as possible.
3.	Contract calls for completion of pier on the 30tb June, 1905.
4.	Contract price for pier $21,388. Contract does not include any dredging.
5.	$300.
6.	Mr. John Rae.
7.	$3 per working day.
8.	On July 4, 1904.
9.	$300.


GOVERNMENT OFFICERS IN NORTHWEST TERRITORIES.
Mr. HERRON asked :: 1.	What officers or employees of the government in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories resigned during the calendar year 1904 ; at what dates, and for what reasons ?
2.	Who, if any, of these have since been again employed by the government ; at what date, and in what capacity ?


Rt.   H@: I presume this question refers only to the Department of the Interior ; at all events I have the answer only for that department which is as follows :
1.	,T. Kelso Hunter, 17th February, 1904, deputy registrar, land registrar district of Assinibeia ; no reason given. A. E. Wild, 31st January, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Melfort, Saskatchewan ; no reason given. David M. Logie, 13th January, 1904, clerk Dominion lands office, Prince Albert ; no reason given. W. H. Reed, 27th January, 1904, sub-Crown timber agent, Strathclair ; removed to Winnipeg. H. S. Chaplin, 18th April 1904, clerk Dominion lands office, Calgary ; no reason given. Miss. Minnie M. McDonald, 6th May, 1904, clerk, Dominion lands office, Regina ; no reason given. R. R. King, 26th May, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Melfort, Saskatchewan ; no reason given. P. A. Miquelon, 7th June, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Wetaski-win, Alta. ; no reason given. James Brewster, 12th April, 1904, land guide, In-nisfail ; left the district. H. M. Douglas, 1st July, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Innisfail ; no reason given. M. M. Reed, 3rd July, 1904, clerk, land titles office, Regina ; no reason given. Thos. Turnbull, 31st August, 1904, inspector Dominion lands surveys, Winnipeg ; no reason given. J. B. Holden, 30th September, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Leduc, Alta. ; no reason given. Miss M. L. Armstrong, 7th November, 1904, clerk, Dominion lands office, Regina ; no reason given. P. M. Bredt, 30th September, 1904, immigration agent, Regina ; no reason given.
2.	A. E. Wild, 1st June, 1904, sub-agent of Dominion lands, Melfort, Saskatchewan.


GRAIN WAREHOUSES IN MONTREAL.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. PICHE-by Mr. Talbot-asked :
1.	By whom were the plans of the warehouses for the storing of grain in the port of Montreal prepared ?
2.	Who were the persons employed in the preparation of those plans, and what was the cost entailed in the preparation of said plans ?
3.	Who prepared the plans of the grain chutes intended to convey the grain from the elevator which was erected by the government in the port of Montreal to the steamers ?
4.	Was Mr. Metcalfe employed in the preparation of these plans, and what remuneration was he to receive for the same ?
5.	Was Mr. Johnson, now general superintendent and engineer of the Dominion Bridge Company, employed in the preparation of these plans, and will he receive payment for his work ?
Hon RAYMOND PREFONT AIN® (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :
1.	The commissioners have no warehouses for the storing of grain in the harbour of Montreal, excepting a grain elevator.
2.	The plans for the elevator were prepared by the Steel Storage and Elevator
Construction Company, of Buffalo, N.Y., the contractors for the building of the elevator, and the cost of the plans was included in the cost of the building.
3.	The government has no elevator in Montreal, the commissioners' elevator has two grain chutes for loading vessels which form part of the contract work and were included in the plans therefor. Two other grain chutes were added, the plans for which were prepared by the commissioners' chief engineer.
4.	Neither Mr. Metcalfe nor Mr Johnson was employed in the preparation of the plans for the grain chutes, and neither received remuneration therefor.
5.	Answered by No. 4.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	What is the total expenditure incurred ta date by the government in connection with the organization of a Canadian Naval Militia ?
2.	What is the total number of officers and men at present engaged on the government steamship ' Canada ' ?
3.	Where is the steamship ' Canada ' at present, and how is she going to be employed during the next four months ?
1.	Nothing.
2.	Seventy.
3.	Nassau, West Indies. At present she is on an instructional cruise. About the middle of April she will join the Fisheries patrol fleet on the Nova Scotia Coast.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1.	Did the government, during the months of October and November, 1904, employ civil engineers to make a survey for a line of railway in the county of Joliette, Quebec ?
2.	For what object was this work and survey undertaken by said engineers, and was this work and survey undertaken in connection with the proposed Transcontinental Railway ?
3.	What was the total cost of this work and survey already accomplished by said engineers and their assistants ?
4.	Have said engineers made their report concerning this work and survey ? If so, what was the date of said report ?
5.	Who was the overseer charged with the direction of this work, and what salary did he receive ?
Henry Robert Emmerson: The government did not during the months of October and November employ civil engineers to make a survey for a line of railway in the county of Joliette, but I have reason to assume that the transcontinental railway commissioners made a survey through that county, not under the direction of the government.


JURISDICTION OVER ESTUARY FISHERIES.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Barker-asked :
1. What is the present state of the issue between the Dominion and provincial govern-
[Stage Direction]


meats in regard to jurisdiction over the fishing rights in estuaries of rivers flowing into the sea ?
Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The matter is still in issue between the provinces and the Dominion government.


FISHERIES PROTECTION STEAMERS.
Mr. LEWIS asked :: 
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1. ' La Canadienne,' ' Petrel,' ' Constance,' ' Curlew,' ' Falcon,' ' Brant,' ' Kestrel,' ' Vigilant,' ' Canada,' ' Swan,' ' Georgia,' ' King Fisher,' ' Osprey.'
4.	How many months during the year is each vessel in active service ?


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 
OCEAN AND RIVER SERVICE STEAMERS.
Mr. LEWIS asked :: 
Mr. MONK.: ers, Fleming and Ferguson, Paisley ; age of vessel, 1 year.
3.	' Minto,' Georgetown-Pietou ; winter navigation with mainland.
' Stanley,' Georgetown-Pietou ; winter navigation with mainland.
' Lady Laurier,' Halifax ; lighthouse and buoy service, Nova Scotia agency.
' Lansdowne,' St. John; lighthouse and buoy service, New Brunswick agency.
' Aberdeen,' Quebec ; lighthouse and buoy service, Quebec agency.
' Druid,' Quebec ; lighthouse and buoy service, Quebec agency.
' Quadra,' Victoria ; lighthouse and buoy service, British Columbia agency.
' Montcalm,' Quebec ; ice-breaker-lighthouse and buoy service, Quebec agency in summer.
' Champlain,' River Ouelle ; ferry service, River Ouelle and Murray Bay.
4.	Practically the whole year, except when laid up for repairs.
REPAIRS, 1903-1904. Dominion steamers :-
'Aberdeen '	. .. $ 8,829	74' Lansdowne '	. .. 6,030	93' Quadra '	. .. 3,160	78' Stanley '	
'Minto'	. . . 11.053	59. . . 6,130	88' Druid'	. . . 7,079	32' Lady Laurier '.. . ' Constance '	. . . 36,107	62.. 6,134	55' La Canadienne '.. .	. . . 4,594	22' Osprey '	
' Curlew '	.... 292	87. .. 520	14' Kingfisher '	. .. 445	99' Kestrel '	. . . 2,115	34' Georgia '	
' Swan '	. . . 156	39. . 1,418	40


FISHERIES PROTECTION SERVICE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEFURGEY-by Mr. Lancaster- asked :

Mr. CROCKET asked :: 
Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Vessel.	Monthly Pay-roll (average).	Total Wages.	Deck and Engine Supplies and Repairs.	Provisions, Fuel, Clothing, &c.*	La Canadienne '	
*	Osprey '	$ cts. 616 10 310 17 472 20 554 55 331 94 1,065 59 115 00 173 50 575 26	$ cts. 8,383 22 4,722 08 5,666 50 6,654 50 3,983 32 12,787 12 1,380 00 2,080 00 6,902 96	$ cts. 2,037 44 2,404 14 1,815 27 997 97 1,670 77 4,085 26 1,912 18 422 35 7,093 05	$ cts. 7,598 42 6,158 32 3,734 86 4,000 63 5,048 34 9,153 84 589 63 1,236 90 9,749 78'Curlew'	
*	Petrel ' 	
*	King Fisher *	
*	Kestrel '	
*	Swan '	
*	Georgia \.. .	
. . ..	* Constance '	
,


OCEAN AND RIVER SERVICE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEFURGEY

by Mr. Lancaster- asked :
In respect of each of the steamers employed by the government in connection with the ocean and river service, what is, in round numbers, the ordinary weekly or monthly pay-roll ; the total amount paid last year for (a) wages ; (b) for supplies ; (c) for other purposes ?
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONT  AINE@Minister of Marine and Fisheries: Fiscal year 1903-1904. average monthly pay-roll, $7,019.21.	(a.) $<84,426.02.	(b.) $134,497.07.
(c.) $78,392.86.
43*


MIMINIGASH BREAKWATER.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEFURGEY-by Mr. Lancaster- asked :
1.	Is any work being done on Miminigash breakwater for repairs, &c., for 1904 ?
2.	How is the work being done ?
3.	If by tender, who were the tenderers, and what was the figure of each tender ?
4.	To whom was the contract given ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (for the Minister of Public Works) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Work done by day labour.


PREVENTION OF TUBERCULOSIS.
Mr. GEO. H. PERLEY (Argenteuil) moved :: That in the opinion of this House the time has arrived when parliament should take some active steps to lessen the widespread suffering and the great mortality among the people of Canada, caused by the various forms of tuberculosis ?
He said : Mr. Speaker, as a layman in both medicine and law, I feel very diffident about bringing this question before the House ; but the national importance of it and the great interest I take in it must be my excuse for so doing. The disease to Which the resolution refers needs no definition from me Consumption of the lungs, which is the most common and destructive form of tuberculosis, has been known ever since the dawn of medical science. It was discussed and studied by medical men even in the days of ancient Greece and Rome. I hold in my hand official returns from the secretaries of the boards of health of the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, according to which I find that in the year 1903, the last year of which we have official statistics, 60.540 people died in these two provinces. Of these, in the province of Quebec. 2,943 died from tuberculosis, while only 2,017 died from all other contagious diseases. In the same year, in the province of Ontario, 2,723 died from tuberculosis, and only 1,938 from ail other contagious diseases.
Now, on the basis of these two provinces, the total deaths in the Dominion from tuberculosis in 1903 were about 8,000.' That would be about 10 per cent of all deaths throughout the Dominion. And I find that practically all authorities agree that all the deaths caused by tuberculosis are not tabulated under that disease. In fact, some of the best writers claim that one-eighth of all deaths are caused by this disease, and others even say as many as one-fifth are caused by it. I have the official report for 1901 of the province of British Columbia, which states that in this form-that is in the form of consumption-tuberculosis causes about one-sixth of all the deaths occurring in the hums n race, and that omitting the deaths among children up to fifteen years and adults after sixty, it causes about a quarter of all deaths, so that its ravages are most deadly at a period when the life of the individual is most useful. Not only ore a great number of deaths caused by ibis disease, but it is estimated that between 30,000 and 40,000 persons are affected by it in the Dominion of Canada ; which means that a great percentage of these people are unfit to follow their ordinary occupations, and the families of those that are poor must be, more or less, a charge upon the public purse.
For many centuries, consumption was supposed to be an hereditary and incurable disease, and in consequence its Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
visitations were accepted by the people in a spirit of fatalism and hopelessness, and practically nothing was done to stop the terrible ravages it caused. During the last few years, however, this has all been changed, and we now know that this disease is not inherited. In fact, it has been shown that the children of consumptives, when removed from their parents at the time of birth and brought up in proper surroundings are very little more likely to take this disease than any other children are. We also know now that the cause, and the only cause, of this disease is a living germ known as the turbercle bacillus, which is taken into the human body chiefly by breathing air which is laden with the germs in a dry state. While this disease, therefore, is not directly contagious, it is communicable, and very readily so, when the patients suffering from it are careless or ignorant. But, though this disease can be easily communicated, its spread is very easily prevented, and patients can be kept from giving the disease to others by very simple means, chiefly by keeping the sputum of the patients wet and destroying it. In fact, it is now well known that the place where one is least likely to contract tuberculosis is in a well organized sanatorium, because if the rules are properly carried out there is absolutely no danger of contagion from the patients. I have known, and I have no doubt that every member of this House has known, cases of families where one member has had this disease, and, one after the other, the other members have contracted it from the patient entirely through ignorance of the proper rules to be observed In such cases. If our homes were guided by the same rules that prevail in sanatoria, there is no reason why this disease should not disappear from our midst. Now, to show that work through sanatoria and in other ways does effect a reduction in the mortality, 1 may say that, in the year 1891, in the city of London, England, 22 out of every 10.000 of the population died of tuberculosis. They have hospitals for this disease and fight it in other ways. In fact. His Majesty the King, who was given a million dollars to use for charitable purposes, decided that it was best to use it in erecting sanatoria for consumptives. The result of that work has been that, while the death rate in 1891 was 22 per 10,000 of the population, in 1896 it was reduced to 17-3 per 10,000. Not only that, but we find that in the different cities the percentage of deaths from tuberculosis is chiefly in proportion of the work done in attempting to prevent its spread. In 1894, the deaths from tuberculosis per 10,000 of the population were, in St. Petersburg, 44-3; Paris, 41-6; New York, 24-1 ; Berlin, 22-3 and London, 17-3.
This disease is not only preventable but the researches of medical men within the last few years have shown that it is curable-in fact that it readily yields to

treatment if taken in its early stages. Dr. Brehmer. of Germany, who has had a great deal to do with sanatoria, found, after investigating and reporting on 5,000 cases of tuberculosis, that 50 per cent of the incipient cases were cured, and, even of the moderately advanced cases, 21 per cent were cured. And these figures are borne out by reports of sanatoria in this country and Europe. X find that the reports run from 40 to 60 per cent of cures of cases taken in the *early stages. Some people think that climate has a great deal to do with the cure of this disease. Fortunately it is now known that a cure can be 'effected in any climate, provided the patient is able to be out of doors. The treatment is very simple ; it consists almost entirely of sun, fresh-air and good food. The wealthy are able to take care of themselves in this respect. When a member of such a family is taken with the dread disease, means are at hand to afford him proper treatment which will probably effect a cure, but the poorer people of this country are unable to provide for themselves. I am sure that every member of this House knows of cases among the poorer people, where members of a family have died one after another with practically nothing done to help them. I have mentioned these facts about the preventability and curability of tuberculosis simply to show that, if this parliament will take the matter in hand, a great deal of good, beyond all doubt, can be accomplished. As a matter of fact, very little is being done in our great country in this respect. The only sanatorium in this country owned by a province, I believe, is one in Kentville, N.S., with a capacity of eighteen patients. There are several private sani-toria, one in Nova Scotia with a capacity of eight patients, one in Quebec with a capacity of sixteen, and three in Ontario with a total capacity of 210 patients. And I believe that one has lately been started in the Northwest, although I do not know whether it has yet been opened.
It will thus be seen that in the sanatoria which are now open there is room for only 252 patients, while there are 40,000 afflicted with this disease in the Dominion of Canada. The municipalities throughout the Dominion, I am sorry to say, have not done a great deal in the direction of endeavouring to control this disease. Some cities have done something, but on the whole the disease has been allowed to flourish and spread in almost every part of the Dominion. There is no other place where a patient can go but to one of these sanatoria. As for the hospitals, nearly all of them strongly object to admitting consumptive patients. I may mention a very pitiable case that occurred a few years ago in Ottawa at the time of the great fire. The wife of a man who was burned badly was a consumptive, and he himself contracted the disease, as also did their two childern later, as they had no
place to go to, but had to remain at home and infect each other. Private charity has not yet been able to cope with this difficulty to any extent.
For the last five years we have had in existence in this country a society called the Canadian Association for the Prevention of Consumption and other forms of tuberculosis, with its headquarters in the city of Ottawa. This association was formed for the purpose of educating the people by disseminating literature and information, and urging on the municipalities and governments the necessity of doing something to stop the ravages of this dread disease. The late Governor General, Lord Minto, was the first honorary president, and took a great deal of interest in furthering its objects. I am happy to say that the present Governor General, Lord Grey, has taken up his work and has become honorary president. I have been a member of the executive since its organization, and am well acquainted with its operations, and believe we have accomplished something. We have a secretary and lecturer, who travels through the country /or the purpose of teaching the people the danger of the disease and the methods of preventing it, and we have sent out a great deal of information. Thanks to this government, a sum of $2,000 has been given the last few years annually for the purposes of this association, and I am glad to say on behalf of the association, that we are very grateful for that assistance. Now, the first thing we would like to get done is the establishment of sanatoria. Last spring, at our annual meeting, this question was brought up, and a deputation was appointed to interview the Dominion government and ask for assistance towards the establishment of sanatoria. We asked the federal government to assist the provincial governments in some way to build a sanatorium iu each province as an object lesson, which others might follow. Every patient suffering from this disease is now a source of contagion to all about him, and every patient who is taken to a sanatorium becomes thus an agent for the dissemination of information throughout the country, and, through his experience, the people learn what they ought to do in order to cure themselves of the disease and prevent their friends and relatives from taking it. In this way a sanatorium would do a double good, because, in saving the patient himself, it would help to save others.
Now, Sir, it has been said that this subject ought to be dealt with entirely by the provinces. To that argument I may answer that the provinces are unable properly and efficiently to deal wih this evil, it is so widely disseminated throughout the length and breadth of this Dominion. It is to be remembered that there are 30.000 or 40,000 people suffering from it in the Dominion of Canada, although many of them are able to work and move about. In fact, an ordin-

ary observer would not know that many of them had the disease at all. These people move about and spread the disease. It would be impracticable for a provincial government to take up the matter, because it could not draw a line at its own boundaries, and people suffering from this disease in other provinces would drift into the province which was providing for such sufferers. One province could not make rules and regulations to prevent people crossing into it from other provinces It is necessary for the patient to live much out of doors ; the weather is so much pleasanter in some sections than in others at this time of year, that the patients naturally move into that section where they can live outside most comfortably. It is manifestly impracticable for the provinces separately to deal with this question, and I believe that they cannot do so efficiently. Now, Sir, I consider that no greater obligation devolves upon this House than to provide some means of lessening this great evil. If we wait for the municipalities and private charities to come to the rescue of these unfortunate people, many of them will die in the meantime, and the_ disease will go on spreading. I do not say that the Dominion should take this matter up alone, but it should do so jointly with the provinces, and the municipalities must help as well The association asks this parliament to help build sanatoria, as I have already explained, but personally, I believe that the disease will never be properly dealt with until the Dominion government takes full charge of it, under the management of the Director of Public Health and an official staff here in Ottawa. Professor Knopf, who is a specialist in this disease, has said :
To combat consumption as a disease of the masses successfully, requires the combined action of a wise government, well-trained physicians and an Intelligent people.
If as many deaths-8,000 occurred from smallpox or scarlet fever, there would be such a tremendous outcry raised throughout the Dominion, that nothing would be left undone to stop its progress. Now, this disease causes more deaths than small-pox, diphtheria, scarlet fever, measles, typhoid and yellow fever combined [DOT] still tuberculosis is a preventable disease, and to a large extent it is a curable one. Now, Mr. Speaker, to come down to material arguments, I may mention that this disease, besides being so fatal to so many thousands, costs the people of this Dominion millions of dollars every year. We are now spending large sums of money on immigration.
In the estimates of this year, page 33, there is a vote of $767,200 for immigration ; and whatever difference of opinion there may exist regarding the quality of the immigrants we are bringing to this country,
I am sure we will all agree that they are not as good a class of people as our own Canadians living in the country, and if we Mr. PERLEY.
can lessen the mortality among our own people, caused by this dread disease of tuberculosis, we will be doing our country a far greater benefit than by any expenditure on immigration. It is generally admitted that every productive life is worth a thousand dollars to the country. Well, if you accept that estimate and apply it to the eight thousand people who are dying here of tuberculosis per annum, it means a loss of eight million dollars a year to the Dominion. And when, in addition to this mortality, there are from 30,000 to 40,000 people suffering from tuberculosis who are in a great measure unable to work, that loss is considerably increased. Some authorities estimate the loss arising from this cause much higher than I do, but it seems to me that at least eight million dollars per year must be lost to the country through the inability of these people to work. That makes a total loss of $16,000,000 per annum, caused by the ravages of this fell disease. Would it not then be well for this parliament to give some substantial help to assist in lessening this disease.. The saving of half these people would be an immense benefit to the Dominion from a humanitarian as well as from a financial point of view.
The argument has been made, I believe, that this parliament has no power to deal with this question, that the matter of public health is entirely within the jurisdiction of the provinces. True it is that at present the provinces have almost the entire charge of the public health, but I do not find anything in the British North America Act to give them the exclusive charge and prevent the federal authorities taking any action. The matter of public health is not mentioned in any of the exclusive clauses of the British North America Act at all. And in the year 1868, I find that in the first Act providing for the organization of the Department "of Agriculture. 31 Vic. chap. 53, it is enacted that public health and quarantine shall be under the control of that department. I find also in chapter 63 of the same year that in clauses 7. 8. 0, 10, and 11 of the Quarantine and Health Act, it is provided that the government may make regulations regarding health. Further my view of the case is confirmed by a memorandum which was written on .Tune 21. 1807. by Mr. John Low who was at that time the technical referee of the Department of Agriculture and who had been for years its deputy head. Mr. Low said
The administration of the subject of public health is joint between the Dominion and the provinces, in virtue of the Act of Confederation.
Until the year 1872, the Quarantine Act contained provisions charging the Department of Agriculture with the administration of public health, and which administration for many years before it had exercised as a bureau, there having been under it a public health

medical board, of which the late Dr. Tachfi, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, was the secretary.
In 1872, the Minister of Agriculture (the late Hon. J. H. Pope) advised the elimination of the public health clauses from the Quarantine Act, for the reason that he found heavy accounts for public health service were presented to him for payment by the provinces while he had no control in the direction of the service.
But in 1878, notwithstanding this decision, on the return of Sir John A. Macdonald to power, Mr. Pope, who became again Minister of Agriculture, took over, at the very urgent request and representation of Dr. Tache, the subject of leprosy and dealt with it as a part of the administration of his department, and ever since the treatment of leprosy throughout the Dominion and the hospital at Tracadie have been under the control of this government. 1 find besides a grant made to the Winnipeg and St. Boniface hospitals in our estimates of this year. It seems to me, therefore, that this question of the public health is joint between the Dominion and the provinces and that this parliament has every power to deal with it, particularly in virtue of section 91 of the British North America Act which provides that the federal parliament shall make laws in relation to all maters not assigned exclusively to the legislatures of the provinces.
Allow me, Sir, to briefly summarize the facts which I have brought before this House regarding this disease known throughout the world as the White Plague. It is a disease which carries off at least eight thousand of our people annually. It is a disease which costs this country at least $16,000,000 per annum and inflicts untold misery and woe throughout the land on the families of those whom it carries off. Today, medical science has discovered that to a iarge extent, if taken in its early stages, it may he cured; and it seems to me that we should not fail to take advantage of this knowledge and the means which medical science has placed at our disposal. There is nothing in the British North America Act to prevent our acting in the matter. Further there is not one of the provinces which is in the slightest degree adverse to our taking action, and in any case it would be criminal on our part to allow this great loss of life and wealth to continue simply because there should happen to be some few purely technical objections to our dealing with the subject. I appeal to this House to pass this motion. I appeal in the name of humanity, in the name of all the unfortunates who are suffering and dying from this disease, and I ask this parliament to take steps to save our people and keep this fair Dominion in the vanguard of' civilization.


Mr. T. G. JOHNSTON.: I think it my duty, Mr. Speaker, to second this very important motion, but as it is of too great importance to be discussed within the short space of time at the disposal of the House this afternoon, I shall confine my remarks exclusively to expressing the great sympathy I have In the ideas which my hon. friend (Mr. Perley) has expressed and the views he has brought forward. In the hope he has expressed that some action will eventually be taken by this House and government tending towards the repression of this scourge I most cordially join. The loss of life and the loss of money to the state caused by tuberculosis is almost incalculable. The disease may be almost called a social one. There is perhaps not a municipal centre in the Dominion entirely free from it in some form or other, and it certainly is high time that governing bodies should take cognizance of the fact and adopt means for its removal or at least its mitigation. We know that the disease can he prevented if taken in time. We know that if the proper means be taken at the outset, the patient may be cured. But in order that an effective system be put in operation, you require the combined action of an intelligent public, the professional men, and the statesmen. For years our professional men have been attempting to educate the public and have succeeded to some extent. Within the last few years, thanks to the medical profession, there has been great improvement in the knowledge of the public in this matter, and many attempts have been made to grapple with the evil by private individuals impelled by philanthropic motives. With the governments, however, we have not had the same success. They as a rule have given the subject very little attention. In fact the only class ot individuals who still remain uneducated is our statesmen, but I am not without hope that in course of time they too will become educated and give to this subject the attention it deserves. I sincerely hope that those in charge of this movement will continue to press their representations upon governing bodies such as this until the governing bodies are thoroughly impressed with the sense of their duty and act accordingly.


Mr. J. W. DANIEL (St. John City).: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Ar-genteuil (Mr. Perley) who has introduced the subject to us this afternoon is deserving of the thanks of this House and of the people of this country. This is a subject which I think must receive the sympathetic consideration of this government, because I cannot conceive of any government having the interests of the people at heart which by any possibility can throw to one side a matter so important to them as that which has been brought before us this afternoon. The mover of this motion has gone so thoroughly into the matter that it leaves really very little for any one else to bring forward. This subject of tuberculosis has, within the


Mr. J. B. BLACK (Hants).: I shall not inflict upon the House a lecture on tuberculosis, its causes or its treatment ; neither shall I take more than a few moments of your time. I would like to say that I consider that the government and parliament even as a matter of national defence should take active steps for the prevention of tuberculosis. If it is considered good statesmanship-and I have no doubt it is-that large sums of money should be spent in bringing immigrants into this country and increasing our population, it must be better statesmanship to save the lives of our own citizens, for I maintain that one good Canadian whose life has been saved is better than a score of Doukhobors.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Judson Burpee Black: I say nothing against the Doukhobors ; I say that one good Canadian, whose life has been saved, is better than a score of Doukhobors. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that as a matter of self defence we should take steps to prevent the spread of tuberculosis. We have a department of agriculture; we give special attention to the prevention of this disease among cattle and why should we not protect the lives of our people ? We have every encouragement in making the attempt to defend ourselves against this disease because we have learned so much from the last few years that we can now prevent tuberculosis, we can save lives, [DOT]and judging from the short past of what may be done in the future we have every encouragement to hope that if proper steps are taken we shall accomplish a very great deal for the benefit of the state, for the benefit of this Dominion, in adopting some organized plans for the prevention of the disease. We all know that it is preventable ; we all know now that in its earlier stages, it is curable. We know that if knowledge were spread among the people many lives could be spared.
There are, I believe, somewhere about half a million people in this Dominion affected with tuberculosis. The percentage of deaths has been enormous, but with the knowledge we have gained in the last few years of its prevention and treatment the percentage of deaths is growing smaller every year, which is a great encouragement for us to go on to the prevention of this disease. We know now that nobody can have tuberculosis unless they catch it just as no one can have small-pox unless they catch it. The people do not know how to escape the contagion as they should and I think it is the duty of this country to have the people instructed. It seems to be the general idea that sanatoria are the only means for the proper cure of this disease and for its prevention, but how is the poor man going to get into the sanitorium ? I am very glad to say that my own province has taken a wise step and that a wise and a generous government there has built a provincial sanatorium. It is a good one and well equipped and I would say all credit to the government of Nova Scotia for having established it. But, Mr. Speaker, there are thousands of people, thousands of the poor, the workingmen, suffering and dying from this disease who have neither the opportunity nor the means of getting into the sanatoria, and the saddest part of all in these deaths from tuberculosis is that it is not the old, whose lives have been worn out for their families and for the State, but it is the lives of the young whose continued existence would be a benefit to the State and to their families-these are the classes that are going most rapidly from this disease. I was saying that the idea seems to prevail

that sanatoria scattered through the Dominion would be the only possible method of preventing the spread of this disease. But, Mr. Speaker, I think it is the duty of the government of this country to have the people instructed. The causes and treatment of tuberculosis are so easily explained -for we depend little on drugs, medicines and prescriptions for its cure- that plain language and plain teaching such as the common people can understand is all that is necessary to instruct the people how to avoid the contagion of the disease. I believe the first public pamphlet for the instruction of the people was issued by my late reverred friend Dr. Farrell, of Halifax, who was the delegate of the government of Canada to the first tuberculosis conference at Berlin. That pamphlet of that able gentleman was written in such simple language that even the ignorant might understand it. That is the class of literature which I think should be published all over the Dominion. Further, I think instruction on the subject should be given in the public schools and lecturers should he sent throughout the country. The knowledge of the disease is so easy to teach and understand that the people, even the most ignorant, may be instructed so effectually that they will be able to take such steps as are necessary to prevent their children catching it. For, as X said before, the disease is not inherited, it is not transmitted, but it is caught. Of course, there are many of us with broad shoulders and deep chests who will never be injured by it, but the child born of tubercular parents, with sloping shoulders and narrow chest, while he may not have the disease, has the ground in which it is easily cultivated. Such are the people whom it is our duty to teach how to avoid contracting the disease. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the time has come when we should have a bureau of public health, when steps should be taken, not only for the planting all over this Dominion of sanatoria, but of other modes of teaching the people how to escape this disease. The prospect of accomplishing good in this respect is excellent. We have done so much in a very short time since we became acquainted with the cause and cure or this disease, that I think the time is now ripe for taking steps to teach the people throughout the Dominion how it can be avoided and how it can be cured.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: Mr. Speaker, I would have said nothing on this question but that my silence might have been misconstrued as a want of interest for suffering humanity or in the subject under discussion. In my judgment, the hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) is entitled to the thanks not only of this House, but of the people of this country for the sympathetic way in which he has taken up this question, the philanthropic spirit which he has displayed and the able manner in which he has presented it to the House. We have too few people in the country to take Mr. BLACK.
an interest in this movement and give it that substantial .aid which it must havd if it is to be a success; and those individuals, one here and one there, who do take hold of it, as the hon. member has done, are entitled to the thanks of the people of this country. We have had this question before the House during my time, in the last quarter of a century, some four or five times. It has been discussed at great length, and the members of this House have shown a commendable desire to take it up in a practical way, but we have invariably been confronted with the contention that it is not within our jurisdiction to deal with the subject of public health-that the only matters relating to public health which the British North America Act places under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada are defined in clause 11 to be : quarantine and the establishment and maintenance of marine hospitals, and, therefore, whatever we do in this respect must be be done along these lines. But it has always been a mystery to me why we should not take up this question jointly with the provinces and apply to the Imperial Parliament for an amendment to the British North America Act that would give the Dominion Parliament power to deal with it, if not exclusively, at least conjointly with the provinces. In that way some substantial good might be accomplished, a great deal more than is accomplished at the present time. We are also confronted with the next clause of the Act, which assigns to the provinces the establishment, maintenance and management of hospitals, asylums, charities and eleemosynary institutions in and for the provinces, other than marine hospitals. So that the provinces have assigned to them the subject of public health. But it has always been curious to me that this parliament seems to have a greater interest in the health of brute creation than that of the human being. In the exercise of our power over quarantine, we made a law a few years ago to prevent the importation of tuberculosis. Under that law we would not allow a farmer to bring into Canada an animal which the tubercular test indicated to be affected by tuberculosis-the animal must be slaughtered. In the human being the bacteriological test enables us to detect it in the early stages. Why do we not apply it to immigrants coming in who show signs of disease-and refuse them admission into our country ? But we allow all classes of immigrants to come in without being subjected to any tubercular test, and we know, from the statistics gathered in Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver and elsewhere, that many of these immigrants have been in the incipient stages of tuberculosis, and have had to go to the hospital shortly after their arrival. We do not examine them as we do the animals. I never could understand why that is so, and why we do not to that extent exercise the power we have in regard to quarantine. The result is that we

are importing the disease as well as allow ing it to develop in the country ; we are not doing all that we could in the interest of humanity. One reason why even more interest should be taken in this question today than was done a few years ago is that whereas it was formerly believed that tuberculosis was practically incurable, to-daj the bacteriologist can tell from an examination of the sputa whether the tubercular bacillus is present or not in the early stages of the disease, which puts it within our power to cure a large percentage of the cases which could not a few years ago be cured.
No attempt was formerly made to affect a cure because the disease was not detected until too late, but at present it can be detected so readily that thousands of cases are cured in the incipient stages.
We are asked can we not do something. I think we can do a great deal. The hon. gentleman who preceded me said that we required greater education in the matter. Well, we can have that educational work done and there is nothing to prevent this government from undertaking to have it done. We can give the financial assistance required. We have the money and we have the power to spend it for that purpose. We can vote subsidies for the purpose of keeping up these sanatoria which are established and helping to establish others. One of the drawbacks which philanthropists have to contend with, in their efforts to do something for humanity, is the lack of the necessary financial assistance. We are not doing what we can. There can be no doubt that there is a large field in which we can act. There can be no doubt that there is an increasing need from year to year of means for the cure of these unfortunates who become afflicted with this disease. That need is increasing rapidly in many portions of the country despite the fact that if these unfortunates were only surrounded by favourable conditions the greater proportion of them would be cured. To prevent the spread of the disease is a work the importance of which is second to none. One individual will infect a whole family. X have seen six seven and eight members of a family one after another, dying in succession from the same disease. Why did they die ? Not because of some inherent constitutional defects, but because the infection was transmitted from one to another, because they were living under the same conditions, in the same houses, and had not been removed to healthy surroundings. They died simply because they did not get proper care and attention. Cases have come under my own observation in which three or four members of the one family have died, and the rest who were taken away entirely and put under favourable conditions were not attacked at all. That being the case, this disease being so well known for its contagious character, it is our bounden duty to make every effort to prevent its spreading. X think, therefore, this
parliament should take the matter up. There are certain lines in which we have the power to act. Why do we not have the turbercular tests applied to every immigrant that shows signs of weakness, so as to ascertain whether he is afflicted with tuberculosis or not; and if he is, he should not be allowed to land. Those who are in the country and are affected we should have put in an isolated hospital from which the contagion cannot spread. Why have we not quarantine regulations which would prevent people infected with this disease crossing into this country from the United States? Many of them are brought home here to die and no restraint is put upon their coming. We should go further. We should hold a conference between the federal parliament and the provincial legislature and apply to the Imperial parliament for an amendment to the British North America Act which will give us the right jointly or separately to deal with this most important subject. What is wanted is favourable conditions for those afflicted-plenty fresh air and good healthy diet. How is it that Indians, when they come under the conditions of civilization, perish in such a large number from the ravages of consumption, and yet in their nomadic condition are almost entirely free from it. It is because that when living in their wigwams they have plenty of fresh air. While their food is of the worst description, still the healthy conditions under which they lived kept them in perfect health. But let them come under the conditions of advanced civilization, let them live in warm sealed up houses, small rooms and general unsanitary conditions, and they very soon succumb to the ravages of consumption. This should be a lesson to us. It certainly appeals to medical men but it may not appeal with the same force to other members of the community. As a medical man I desire to emphasize the opinion that we are not doing all we can, that we are not working along the lines on which we have authority to work and are consequently not doing our duty to suffering humanity.


Mr. M. S. SCHELL.: As a friend for many years of Professor Robertson, he requested me, when this question came up, to say a few words on it. While I am only a layman, and consequently not as well qualified to discuss it as are our medical friends and some others who are giving the question greater consideration and thought, yet its importance is such that I feel impelled to take some part in it. Those of us who have kept at all in touch with the current literature of the day on this subject, must be convinced that it is high time we should, as a united people, take some decided and decisive action in the way of attempting to check the spread of this disease. For many years there has been a considerable amount of educational work going on both in the provinces and the Dominion. A considerable amount of literature has been distri-

buted and with good effect, for in various parts of the province of Ontario we find our health boards, municipal councils and county councils, taking action in the matter, thus showing that this educational work is making an impression on their minds. Take the county council of the county of Oxford, a part of which county I have the honour to represent, I noticed a few days ago in one of the papers that the said council had granted $300 for the support of the sanatorium at Graven hurst.
In consideration of this grant, the county of Oxford will have the privilege of sending a certain number of persons to the sanatorium for treatment. I noticed a few days ago that an association had been formed in the city of Brantford to deal with this matter. And I notice that the subject has been taken up in Peterborough, and that it is proposed to establish there a sanatorium. Other instances might be given to show that the educational work that has been going on for the last three or four years has made an impression upon the minds and consciences of the people of this province.
Our attention has been called to the scientific aspect of this question. This, perhaps, is not the place to enter into a discussion of the question from a technical or scientific standpoint. But when we can consider the widespread effect and fearful ravages of this disease among our people it becomes our duty as far as possible to stem its tide. This Dominion is not peculiar as a place where tuberculosis has a foothold. We find that in European countries it is even more virulent. Russia, Austria, Germany and other countries have a larger percentage of deaths from this disease than we have. The loss through this disease is less in England than with us, being about 1,500 per million of the population, while in some of the other countries I have named it goes as high as 3,000 per million of the population. In the United States we find that the deaths resulting from this disease are in the neighbourhood of 100,000 per annum. I find in a newspaper published on February 4th a summary of the report of the New York State Board of Health, showing the mortality from various causes in that state. From tuberculosis, in its various forms, the deaths last year were 14,000. I do not doubt that these statistics were carefully prepared, and that they are to be relied upon. The number of deaths from this disease in the Dominion of Canada has already been stated- some 8,000, it is estimated, is our annual death rate from this cause. The number of our people who are supposed to be afflicted with this disease has also been added here as 40,000. I suppose these data are correct. Looking into this subject we find that where the establishment of sanatoria has been carried on with earnestness the reduction of deaths from this disease has been from 35 to 50 per cent. Where patients have been taken Mr. SCHELL.
into these sanatoria in the initial stages of the disease, the cures are as high as 75 per cent. And, even taking the patients promiscuously, of all ages and all classes, we find that from 30 to 40 per cent of cures have been effected. With these facts before us, I think it is incumbent upon us as a parliament, if it is within our province, to make our influence felt upon the subject. I do not know whether we can properly deal with this subject in a financial way. If we may, then we should show, in a practical way, our appreciation of the efforts that have been made to prevent the spread of this disease. If that is not within our province, perhaps we might assist by the dissemination of literature or otherwise, as the wisdom of this parliament may deem best. In any case, the question is one which may well engage the attention of the government and parliament of Canada. Whether the government deals with it or not, the discussion of this subject in this House from this high vantage ground overlooking, as it were, this whole Dominion from ocean to ocean, cannot fail to have a good effect upon the people at large. Through the medium of the press, which is so largely represented in this House, the discussion here will have wide educational results. I believe, further, that the consensus of opinion in this House is that something tangible ought to be done in this rnattei-. This is not a political question. Both sides of the House can take equal part in the discussion without being considered partisan and without reflecting upon or criticising one side or the other. I trust the question will be approached by the government as a non-partisan question, and one to be dealt with simply in the interest of the' people at large. If it is true that we can save the lives of at least 4,000 of our people annually-and we are led to believe that this is the case-what a triumph that will be. We know that economic authorities place the value of a human life to the state at from $1,000 to $1,500. It is easy to see the financial gain that will come to the Dominion if we can effect this saving of life. And so, even if we leave out of sight the higher considerations, the sympathetic and humanitarian considerations, and regard the subject from the lowest standpoint of mere economic gain, the country will be well repaid for taking action in this matter. But I appeal to this House from the standpoint of sympathy, from the humanitarian standpoint, to try, so far as lies within the province of this parliament, to alleviate present suffering and assist the authorities and the private individuals who are working to put down this disease. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the members of this House for the kind hearing you have given me.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE (Marquette).: The subject matter of the motion of the hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) is one of very great importance to the members of

this House and to the people of Canada as a whole. The question of our public health Is one which should engage the interest and attention of every representative of the people. In the past, in this House, we have frequently indulged in what appeared to be somewhat useless discussions of questions of minor importance and, apparently, begrudged neither the time nor the space in ' Hansard ' necessary to lay our views before the country. The government of the day has evinced a desire in the past to spare neither time, energy nor expense in the enactment of certain legislation of much less importance than the protection of the health of the population of Canada. As has been stated here to-day, tuberculosis was at one time regarded as essentially an hereditary and incurable disease. But modern investigation has proved that, though contagious, it is a preventable disease, and the work of stamping it out is receiving the active sympathy and support of the government and people of almost every civilized country in the world.
This being the case, and since we have learned the nature of the disease, and especially when we have knowledge in our possession as to the means of grappling with it properly, it is the duty of any country to adopt every means and to devise every plan possible in order to prevent its ravages among the inhabitants of our common country. We are spending, as has been mentioned by an hon. member to-day, in round numbers this last year or two, $700,000 or $800,000 yearly for the purpose of bringing immigrants to our shores. Many [DOT]f them are from foreign countries where this disease abounds, and some of them were coming here who have actually died while on their journey. Many of them have succumbed during their first year of residence in our country. Owing to this large addition to our population annually it is apparent to any person-it is not necessary to be a professional man, for even a layman can understand that this danger will in crease in the future with this largely in creased addition to our population from year to year, particularly if we do not adopt proper measures to grapple with it and restrict it in its ravages. It has been mentioned here this afternoon that there are from 80,000 to 40,000 of our population annually who are infected with tuberculosis bacilli, who are practically invalided, and when so large a number as that are placed practically out of business and on the sick list, what will be the dire results if sufficient methods are not taken to protect our people from it, not only in this generation but in future generations?
The Department of Agriculture has been spending during the past year, as has been stated by the hon. member for Bast Grey (Mr. Sproule), from $25,000 to $30,000 per annum-for what purpose? For the purpose of restricting, and curtailing, and attempting to stamp out bovine tuberculosis, and I
believe that about two or two and a half per cent of our cattle have been afllieted with that disease, and the result therefrom has been practically nil. When this has been the result of our government action in looking after our cattle, is it not of vastly more consequence that our people should be protected against the ravages of this dire plague ? If nearly one-half of the annual increase to our population-practically this hast year about one-third of our annual immigration to this country-is required to replace those who are placed upon the sick list, those who are invalided through the tuberculosis bacilli in our country, it is evident that we have been making a very large waste of public money, especially when we have the means at our disposal, when by wise and judicious expenditure of money amongst our own people, we can effect so vast a saving in human life and thereby prevent the introduction of this disease. We have our experimental farms-for what purpose? For the purpose of carrying on experimentations, to give our agriculturists the benefit of those experiments and teach them the most modern methods of farming. We have our farmers' institutes where our agriculturists commingle and Interchange their views as to the best methods of farming. These institutes are addressed by lecturers sent out by the central government, who are experts in their particular line, and who teach our farmers and educate them as to the best means of looking after their stock, their lands, their crops, their grains, &c. Now when this is the case in regard to our stock and lands, is it not of much more consequence to look after our human beings? It is true that much has been done and much is being done by the medical men of our country in carrying on an educational campaign by means of their medical associations and public discussions, their medical journals for the dissemination of literature among the people, endeavouring by such means to secure the co-operation of tiie public, educating the public to co-operate with the profession for the adoption of the best methods to stamp out and eradicate this disease. Not only that, but we have our own provincial governments and boards of health who are also carrying on an educational campaign, and they cannot fail to prove very beneficial in the near future. The hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Per-ley) has referred to-day to the central association in the city of Ottawa that has been presided over by the ex-Governor General, Lord Minto, and that the hon. member is a member of the executive committee himself. This central association has been very useful in publishing its proceedings through the press of the country. And I may say here that the press of our country is a powerful lever in disseminating useful Information ; at the same time I think with all due deference to the press, that they have not been doing their full duty, and if they had given in the past as much of their

space to urging the public and teaching them the best methods of protecting themselves against the ravages of this disease as they have to advertisements of quack nostrums that have been deleterious to the public health, they would have been discharging more fully their duty. However, let justice be done where justice is due. It is necessary to say that they have evinced a desire lately, by the publication of the reports of the central association, to make amends in this regard. We have our provincial associations that are acting in concert with the central association. These associations are carrying on a very good work and cannot fail to be productive of great benefit. We have our sanatoria some of them under the direction of private individuals, some under provincial jurisdiction. These are doing a valuable work. But still very much remains to be done that cannot be done successfully, except by the central government, and in order to grapple sucessfully with this great piague we must have the assistance of the central government in our efforts to eradicate it.
It has been argued that the question of public health is one that belongs solely to provincial jurisdiction, but I think that argument should not have much weight when we are dealing with a question of such national magnitude. We have had this question of provincial rights raised on many questions in the past, but on a question of such great national importance affecting the public health in every portion of the Do-minon, there is no reason why there should not be concerted action, why there should not be united action between the Dominion, provincial and municipal authorities. We have had introduced in this session a Census Bill, some of whose provisions have not been drafted with that due regard, with that excessive regard for provincial rights that has characterized the arguments of those who appear to be so jealous of them. We have this government appointing officers to look after infectious diseases of our stock in one of the provinces, notably in Manitoba where there is a division of authority by means of which this Dominion is doing a share in looking after the health of the animals in that province. In many other matters there has been united action and mutual understanding by means of which duties are assigned some to the provincial and some to the Dominion jurisdiction. Now the time may not have arrived when we should have in this country a distinct and separate department of public health, or a minister in the cabinet holding a portfolio of public health. I know that in some of the older settled countries where the population is more dense, and where the urban population is much larger, extending into the millions, notably in France and some other European countries, they have a separate portfolio of the government called the portfolio of public health. Possibly in Mr. W. J. ROCHE.
this new country the population is yet too sparse for that, yet I think tl?e time has already arrived when we should have a central bureau of public health, working in connection with one of the existing departments; possibly the Agriculture Department, owing to the nature of its duties, would be better fitted to take up this work. If such a branch was established in connection with one of the existing departments under the charge of officers thoroughly competent and selected because of their ability and expert knowledge, not because of political service, we would have the nucleus of a very valuable source of information to the public that would prove of great benefit in stamping out contagious diseases. Another necessary adjunct to this department would be a public laboratory where experiments could be carried on, the results of which would be printed and published and circulated, not only amongst the profession, but also amongst the laity.
We should then, in my opinion, have a public laboratory where we could have experiments carried on and have the results printed and published not only for the benefit of the medical profession but also for that of the laymen. Not only that, but, in connection with this laboratory, we should manufacture our own serums, our tubercu-line serum, our prophylactic serum and our auti-toxines. I think it is humilating that a proud young country like Canada should be dependent on the United States and on European countries for these serums that we should make in our own country. There is the ability if it were only given a chance. There are young men in our country who are only awaiting an opportunity of developing that latent talent which opportunity they have not at the present time. We have all the elements that go to make up a strong Canadian nationality. Our climate is conducive to the protection of vigorous and stalwart men. Why should our young men not have an opportunity of discovering some of those drugs that have worked such great cures in recent years ? Why should we not give them an opportunity of making for themselves reputations not only national but world wide in their character and of reflecting credit upon themselves as well as upon the country that has given them birth ? We should also have a system of sanitary police working in connection with the provincial boards of health. We have a large number of people coming from other countries and bringing into this country their rather crude habits. A system of sanitary police, established under the jurisdiction of this parliament and working in harmony with the boards of health would be of incalculable benefit not only in connection with those at present here but also those who are coming to our shores. We should insist upon a rigid inspection of our immigrants before their embarkation for this country. I understand that within the last

year or two there has been a rather cursory examination of our immigrants before they leave, but in connection with this particular disease I do not think there has been so rigid an inspection as there should have been. Not only the government but the profession at large have been a little too apathetic on the question of this disease. We should not allow people to go to the trouble and expense of coming to Canada when they are likely to be deported again because they cannot comply with the immigration laws which I hope will be more rigid in the future. If we had a rigid inspection before they left their own country it would save them the expense of coming to this country. Immigrants' effects brought into this country should be put through a course of disinfection. All medical men know that a great deal of disease is introduced by this means, and if we had a rigid disinfection of settlers' effects we would put out of play one of the means through which that disease is often times introduced. In fact, there is a wide field of usefulness for this government in connection with the stamping out of this disease, and I trust it will rise equal to the occasion and adopt some means that will establish for Canada the reputation in this matter of keeping abreast of the progressive spirit of the age.


Mr. F. L. SCHAFFNER (Souris).: Mr. Speaker, I shall not attempt to speak very long on this question, but I feel that it is my duty to express my opinion upon it. I regret very much to-day that all of the ministers of the Crown are not present. I also regret that every hon. member of the House is not here to listen to this very interesting discussion on one of the most important questions that is before the people of Canada to-day. Now, I take exception to one of the remarks made by my hon. friend from Hants (Mr. Black). Speaking of the importance not only of bringing people into the country but of saving the people who are already in the country he said that one good Canadian was worth twenty Douk-hobors, and I think I must have misunderstood him when he said one hundred Englishmen. An hon. member beside me says that it must have been one hundred Indians. If that were so it would save me making a few more remarks, and it would save the feelings of some of my hon. friends behind me. I am only going to refer to two phases of this subject. Although this is a subject that may come more particularly within the province of the medical profession, I am glad that it has been introduced by my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Perley), a layman and I am glad that a layman on the other side of the House has seen fit to speak upon this question. The medical profession are entirely in accord in regard to the measures that should be taken in the treatment of consumption. I use the word consumption because that is the term which is more generally understood. I would like the galleries 1
and the pressmen to note what has been said on this question to-day as evidencing the great interest we take in it, and also because of the need there is of having the facts widely disseminated throughout the country. One of the phases of this subject to which I wish to refer is the educational value of the movement which has been carried on. The tendency at one time when a sanatorium was about to be established in any part of this country or in any other country was for people resident in the neighbourhood to dread that it should be placed in their midst. Experience has shown that this dread has been entirely overcome and that the people are now glad to have such an institution right in their midst because it has been proven beyond a doubt that the educational value of the institution is such that people become early educated in reference to taking care of the sputa and other things in connection with this disease, and the result is that those within the radius of the institution are safer than those outside of it. We have had that experience in Manitoba. Being a member of the provincial board of health, we have, during the last two years, taken up the question of providing a sanatorium for the province. The people are taking an interest in it. One means we took of tindiug out as to whether the people were interested or not was to ask them to subscribe. I think that is one of the best ways of ascertaining whether a man is interested or not. If he is willing to go down in his pocket he is certainly interested. Before going to the provincial government to ask them to give us a grant we thought we would interview the people, and the way to reach the people is through their municipal councils. We sent out a circular to every municipality in Manitoba and eighty per cent of those municipalities, without any very strong influence being brought to bear upon them, have returned subscriptions of all the way from $25 to $100, and have said in addition to that, something that pleased us more than all, that this was only the beginning of what they were willing to give. They indicated in that way their belief that the idea of a sanatorium was right and they said that they were willing to give their money in support of it. I hope the hon. Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden) who is a medical man is paying some attention to me at least, as down in the province of Nova Scotia they have established the only provincial sanatorium there is in the Dominion of Canada. I do not want to take up the time of the House any longer, but I hope that the government and the people will appreciate the very great importance of this question of establishing sanatoria in this Dominion.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the appeal of the hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley) is one that this House ought not

to refuse. He has put a case that appeals to the sympathies of everybody-sympathy for those in affliction, for those who are suffering, for those who cannot help themselves,- and it is an appeal which every hon. member of this House must naturally feel he would like to respond to. But. Canada, has adopted its constitution allotting certain work to the provinces and certain work to the Dominion parliament and government to perform. It happens that in connection with public health certain well defined work is allotted to the provinces and certain other well defined work is allotted to the Dominion powers. To the Dominion is given, by the British North America Act, the establishment and maintenance of quarantine and the establishment and maintenance of marine hospitals, while to the provincial authorities is given equally clearly and equally definitely the establishment, maintenance and management of hospitals, asylums, charities, eleemosynary institutions in and for the province, other than marine hospitals. At the time that these respective works were committed to the respective authorities there is no doubt that the general [DOT] question was considered, and while it was thoroughly understood that certain parts of hygienic work should be done by the Dominion and certain others by the provinces, we can only believe that the question was examined in order to find which definite piece of work could be done more properly, more beneficially and more effectively by the authority into whose hands it was given. We can quite understand and appreciate that quarantine work comes more properly within the purview of the government of the whole country.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: Does the hon. gentleman mean that as purely frontier work ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Quarantine work as understood in the British North America Act,
1 think, applies to frontier quarantine. It will be necessary for the central Dominion authority to deal with work of that kind. As marine, and trade and commerce are also given into the power of the central government, it was quite natural that marine hospitals should also be given into the control of the Dominion government.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) does not suggest that by reason of the words which he has quoted from the British North America Act this parliament might not have power to deal with the question of sanatoria throughout the Dominion ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, what I meant to imply is that there is certain work which is definitely and clearly allotted to the provinces, and I was going on to point out that I think where this is the case, it is undesirable and would not be politic for the Dominion parliament to undertake that Mr. FISHER.
work. I would not go so far as to say that perhaps we might not have power to do that work ; that is a legal point in connection with the interpretation of the British North America Act on which I would not undertake to give an opinion, but at the same time I say-and I think that in this I am in the judgment of a majority of the people-that where, under the British North America Act, any particular piece of administration is definitely and clearly assigned to one or other of the powers, that is to the Dominion or to the provinces, it is well that it should be left to the power to which it is thus assigned. I say that in general terms. Most of the gentlemen who have spoken have discussed this question in general terms. I have understood, however. from the hon. member who introduced the question and from various discussions that have been held, that at the present moment there is a decided desire on the part of many whose sympathies are aroused on the question of tuberculosis and who have been strongly appealed to to aid in the prevention of this disease, a desire that the Dominion government should vote a sum for some one or more sanatoria. I venture to say that I think that would be inadvisable, and I do not think that this House ought to adopt any motion or resolution which would pledge it to that, that is to say, would pledge it to something which is practically for the establishment and maintenance and management of a hospital or an asylum or a charity for the purpose of tuberculosis any more than for any other disease. If this resolution were to be supposed to indicate an instruction to the government to do that I would feel it to be my duty to vote against it and to ask the House to reject it. But I grant fully that there in a very large work which can be done from a hygienic point of view outside of and altogether apart from sanatoria or hospital treatment. This government had the honour a few years ago of asking parliament to grant a small sum in aid of the Canadian Association for the prevention of tuberculosis. That grant has been renewed, I think, now twice, and in the estimates which are before the House for the coming year,, we again ask for that grant. Several gentlemen have spoken about the spread of information and the gathering of information ; that grant has been devoted largely to that purpose. Without in any way wishing to take any credit, I think I may say that although the government has done so much for the purpose of spreading information and of drawing the attention of the people of Canada to the facts in regard to this dread disease, to the possibilities of preventing its spread, with a desire to rivet the attention of the people of the country everywhere on it and on what can be done to prevent its spread, till it may be that it will be wise, when we find a way to utilize the money, to increase that grant. That, I think, would

be quite within the purview of this parliament anti it would be quite right for the government to do it, but I would point out that up to the present time no scheme has been put forward by those who are interested and who form this association which they could lay before the government or before parliament to indicate in what way such work as that might be improved, extended or rendered more effective. Speaking personally, I would be very glad indeed if such information could be given. It is quite possible that the association for preventing the spread of tuberculosis may be able to provide that information. The government would have to examine and investigate any scheme that was put forward and would have to take the responsibility of saying whether they would aid it financially. It would be impossible, I think, for me or any other member of the government to decide or to say what we ought to do or what we could do until some detail of a scheme of the kind were laid before parliament and before the government, but we think that it would be in the interest of the people at large that those who are to-day giving their attention to this work should turn their attention most particularly to devising something which might be done under the authority and through the intervention of this parliament, which would not in any way invade or overlap the authority and the work which ought to be done by the provincial authorities. I think that we should find some scheme which we could carry out without doing that, and I believe that the attention and the thought of those who are in earnest in this work-as many of the leading men of the country are-should be directed in the direction I have indicated, and that the question of the establishment and maintenance of sanatoria should be left to the provincial authorities in whom apparently it is very clearly indicated by the British North America Act they ought to be vested. Now, it happens that the province of Nova iScotia has taken a step. If that province has done it, there is no reason that I can see why the other provinces should not do the same, and I think it is better that it "liould be left to them.
I will allude briefly to one or two of the reasons which have been given by hon. gentlemen why we should take this matter up. The leper lazaretto has been mentioned. It is true that has been administered by and on behalf of the Dominion government and parliament. That is being done under a definite and distinct arrangement entered into between the Dominion government and the government of the province of New Brunswick, which at the time was managing that institution. I have not under my hand at the moment the exact date of that arrangement, but I think it was in the year 1872.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why could you not make such a distinct and definite agreement with 44
each province in regard to every other dis ease?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not say that we could not, but as a matter of poliey I think it better to leave the provinces the establishment of sanitoria. The question of animal tuberculosis has been brought forward. 1 would point out to my hon. friends that there are no clear or definite instructions as to the health of animals. That is left entirely open. It may be attended to either by the provinces or by the Dominion. As a matter of fact, our experience is that part of it is attended to by the provinces and part by the Dominion. But there is no such clear, defined line with regard to that as there is with regard to the establishment of sanataria for human beings. My hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) spoke of testing for tuberculosis animals. It is true, we can very easily test animals, but we would find great difficulty in testing human beings. As a matter of fact, while the tubercular test is as applicable to human beings as it is to animals, I think I am correct in saying that no country has yet applied that test to human beings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But you have the bacteriological test of the sputa.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The tubercular test is the one the hon. gentleman was referring to, and is the only one applied to animals. 1 do not think it would be advisable to employ this test on human beings, either immigrants or others. While I understand from experts on this question that the test is used to a certain extent in hospitals, where the patients are willing, it has never been used except to that limited extent. I sympathize vex-y much indeed with those who are interested in this question. I feel that it is one which we ought to do everything we possibly can to solve. I am glad to know that a great deal has been done already, through the efforts of private individuals, and that to-day, in consequence of the information that has been spread by various agencies throughout the country in regard to the ways in which the spread of tuberculosis may be prevented and the way in which those already afflicted may be treated, the disease is becoming less dangerous and will probably in the near future become very much less widespread. If we can devise any scheme by which the Dominion parliament can, in the proper exercise of the functions allotted to it, do something more than it has already done in this direction, I, personally shall be very glad, and when such a scheme is brought forward, I tmnk it would be well for the House to take it up and deal with it on its merits. With these observations, I am very glad indeed to support the motion of the hon. member for Ar-genteuil (Mr. Perley) and to express my gratification that the question has been



brought before the House in the way which it has.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not rise, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of addressing myself at any length to the practical aspect of the question which has been brought to the attention of the House, and which has been placed so forcibly before the House and the country by gentlemen who have spoken on this subject. I think the House is indebted to the hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. Periey) for bringing the matter to the attention of the country, and for the very able and forcible way in which he has presented the subject. The same is true of my hon. friend from Lambton (Mr. T. G. Johnston), who seconded the motion. The members of the medical profession have demonstrated the very great importance of the matter. I am thoroughly satisfied that if this House were composed for the main part of members of the medical profession, such pressure would be at once brought to bear upon the government as would result in prompt and effective action. There is no doubt whatever that the question is a very serious one to the people of Canada. The hon. gentleman who introduced the subject tells us, and tells us upon good authority, that this disease results in the death of about 8,000 of our people every year-more than twice as many as the number of men we sent to South Africa three or four years ago, and about four times or, perhaps, five times as many as the entire permanent military' force we maintain, including the Northwest Mounted Police. If there is any means by which parliament can minimize, or altogether stop, this scourge, it seems highly desirable that we should use it. My hon.. friend the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) stated that the gentlemen interested in this question have placed no practical scheme before the House and the country. It seems to me that, if parliament has the power to deal with this question-and I think I shall be able to demonstrate, in a very few words, that it has-it is not for the government to sit idle on the treasury benches and wait for individual enterprise to place before them some scheme for dealing with this question ; but there is a duty and a responsibility placed upon the government themselves to take up this matter and deal with it promptly and in an effective way. The Minister of Agriculture seems to think that the government is in some way absolved from the duty of taking action in the matter, that they may sit silent and inactive for twenty or thirty years, perhaps, waiting for individuals to do that which the government ought to do. I do not take that view of the matter, unless it can be demonstrated that this government and this parliament have no right, and therefore no duty, Mr. FISHER.
to interfere. The Minister of Agriculture spoke of a section of the British North America Act-section 92. Well, that does not interfere at all with action by this parliament. In the first place, let me point out the resolution moved by my hon. friend from Argenteuil does not name the establishment of sanatoria. It is very simple and very general and, at the same time, very comprehensive :
That in the opinion of this House the time has arrived when parliament should take some active steps to lessen the widespread suffering and the great mortality among the people of Canada, caused by the various forms of tuberculosis.
Should the resolution be adopted by this House, it would be simply a request or, if you like, a direction to the government to seek out the remedy which best would abate this scourge, and which would be within the jurisdiction of this parliament. The clause of the British North America Act which the Minister of Agriculture called attention to was subsection 7 of section 92. This subsection gives, as one of the subjects confided to the exclusive jurisdiction of the legislatures of the provinces :
The establishment, maintenance and management of hospitals, asylums, charities and eleemosynary institutions in and for the- province, other than marine hospitals.
Now, even if the view which the Minister of Agriculture seems inclined to take were the correct view, we could act in this matter in any one of three ways. The Dominion authority could gather information and diffuse literature on this subject. It could create a criminal jurisprudence in connection with the subject, if it thought fit or necessary ; or, as has been well pointed out by more than one member of the House in this debate, it could give financial aid. The Minister of Agriculture does not seem to realize how much this parliament and this government have aided matters which are of purely provincial interest, if you look merely at the scope of the British North America Act. For example, the Minister of Agriculture says it is not desirable for parliament to interfere by granting financial aid in connection with work to be done by the provinces, that it would be better, as I understood him, to leave such matters entirely to the jurisdiction of the provincial legislatures. Does not the Minister of Agriculture remember that, during the past eight years, as well as before that time, we have interfered by assisting local enterprises in the shape of provincial railways, which are as much subject to the jurisdiction of the provinces as the establishment of sanatoria for the purpose of abating the ravages of this consumption. Almost every session since 1890 we have had aid granted by the parliament of Canada to local railways, provincial railways, which have not been declared works for the general advantage of Canada.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: And inland navigation.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, and inland navigation also, as my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Sam. Hughes) points out. 1 give these merely as illustrations ; hut, by looking over the estimates for the previous years, many illustrations could be found quite as forcible as those to which I have called attention. Therefore, there seems no good reason why, if the ravages of this disease are as extensive and as much to be dreaded as the hon. gentlemen have stated who have addressed the House, there is no good reason why parliament should not interfere. We have had royal commissions on various questions in the past on matters of very much less importance to the country as a whole than that which has engaged the attention of the House this afternoon. If the government have any doubt as to the extent of the evil that has been spoken of, or any doubt as to the best means of deal ing with the evil, a short but thorough and comprehensive inquiry might be made by some such means as I have pointed out. In that way action on the part of the government might be expedited.
I rose more for the purpose of expressing my view, given without very much consideration, because I did not intend to speak, that, under the British North America Act, there is scope for this government and parliament to deal with the question. The parliament of Canada has a right under section 91 of the British North America Act, to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Canada. And, while the construction which, at one time, was placed upon these words has been supposed to be narrowed by a decision given not long ago in the Privy Council, I think that if we look at the whole scope of the authorities, including that which I have just mentioned, we can come to the conclusion that the parliament of Canada need not hold its hand in this matter for want of jurisdiction over this question. In a very well known work on the constitution of Canada, the work of Mr. Lefroy on legislative power in Canada, a work well known to all lawyers, and one that has been spoken of by the Minister of Justice in this House as one of the very best works that have ever been written on this subject, at page 384, the language of Lord Herschell is quoted :
A sanitary regulation might be passed by a local legislature, but that would not prevent a general sanitary regulation of a similar nature necessary for the safety of the whole Dominion being enacted by parliament.
Further on, quoting again the language of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and dealing with the very clause of the British North America Act to which I have referred, I find the following :
Laws of this nature designed for the promotion of public order, safety or morals, and which subject those who contravene them to criminal 444
procedure and punishment belong to the subject of public wrongs rather than to that of civil rights.
But there is even more direct authority in the very case to which I have just referred, the case of the Attorney General, of Canada against the Attorney General of Ontario, in which the validiy of the Liquor License Act for the province of Ontario was questioned before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. During the argument in that case Lord Herschell used the following very significant language :
Take sanitation for example, suppose that the Dominion parliament had, with a view to the health of the whole Dominion, passed certain regulations, and supposing in a particular province a particular disease was raging which rendered it necessary for the safety of all those within the province that much more stringent regulations as to the inhabitants of the houses should come into force. Should not that he considered a merely local matter. ? If it is so, it is intended to be dealt with, and you limit your regulations to the locality ; and why is that inconsistent if the legislation is on the same lines as that which is in force in the Dominion at large ?
You will perceive, Sir, that Lord Herschell concedes the right of the parliament of Canada to make general sanitary regulations applicable to the whole Dominion, and at the same time he holds that, consistently with that federal jurisdiction, it might be possible for a local legislature, acting within its jurisdiction, to deal with the question of sanitary regulation purely from a local and provincial standpoint and with regard to a particular emergency which may have arisen in any province. Further than that, the very ease to which I have just referred-and it is a case wherein , it was supposed that the jurisdiction of this parliament was limited under the words of clause 91 of the British North America Act-even in that case you will find direct authority for the proposition which I have endeavoured to present in a very few words. The lieadnote or synopsis of that case is as follows, as far as this particular question is concerned :-
The general power of legislation conferred upon the Dominion parliament by section 91 of the British North America Act of 1867, in supplement of its therein enumerated powers, must be strictly confined to such matters as are of unquestionable national interest and importance, and must not trench on any of the subjects enumerated in section 92 as being within the scope of provincial legislation, unless they have attained such dimensions as to affect the body politic of the Dominion.
If the statements of fact made this afternoon, and supported by the best authority, are correct, then it is impossible to deny that this is a question of national interest and importance and one which has attained such dimensions as to affect the body politic of the whole Dominion. Therefore under these circumstances and in view of

these and other authorities which might he cited, 1 for one have no doubt that means might be found and a measure devised by which parliament could deal with this subject and deal with it effectively in the interests of the whole Dominion.


Mr. MILLER.: I shall not, Mr. Speaker, take up the time of the House for more than a few minutes. Most of the remarks made this afternoon were on the line of the government doing something by way of encouraging the maintenance and establishment of sanatoria. While I have no desire to say a word in disparagement of such a course, while I think that much may be done by means of sanatoria in preventing contagion and adopting methods of cure that may be practised within the institution itself, I think a great deal more can be done by means of education. No matter what the government may do for the establishment of sanitoria, there will always be throughout this country many men and women who will not be able to take advantage of these institutions. There must be many men and women who will have to continue to be bread winners as long as they are able to work, and to whom it will be an impossibility to leave their homes and their work and become inmates of these institutions. I remember that in the town in which I live some citizens became possessed of a pamphlet on this dread disease of consumption, and so great was the interest it excited that the pamphlet was passed from one to another and I think a great deal of benefit resulted. Therefore it seems to me that the distribution if literature and the impressing upon the minds of the people the fact that consumption is not hereditary but exceedingly contagious, and that there are methods which may be used in the ordinary homes by the ordinary householders that will lead to its cure, especially if practised in the early stages, and that there are likewise methods which may be used by the ordinary householder to prevent the spread of the contagion, is of great importance and that the information/ thus given cannot fail to result in a great deal of good. With that end in view, I think the suggestion an exceedingly good one that a commission be appointed by this House to gather all possible information on the subject. The report of such a commission would prove a splendid literature for circulation and distribution among the people and would contain no doubt much information regarding the means which the government might take to combat this dreaded scourge.


George Halsey Perley: If there is no one else to address the House on this subject. I would like to say a few words in winding up the debate. I have very little to add to what has been said by those hon. gentlemen who spoke this afternoon. I was very glad to hear my hon. friend the Min-Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
ister of Agriculture express himself in favour of having something done in this matter, but of course one might naturally expect this of the hon. gentleman who has been a member of the executive committee ever since its formation and has always taken great interest in the work. I am sure that not one of us wishes to have anything done which would be in contravention of the British North America Act, and I was pleased to see my hon. friend the leader of the opposition put the case as he did, as it certainly confirms my view. I do not agree with the Minister of Agriculture, that there is a well defined division in the British North America Act with regard to this matter. There are many matters concerning the public health which are not referred to in that Act at all, and concerning which both the Dominion and the provinces have the right to legislate. In the Department of Agriculture itself, I have noticed that on one of the doors, not far from the minister's office, there is the inscription * Director of Public Health ' which must mean something. That must have been put there for some purpose, and the office, I may say, is occupied by a gentleman well qualified to fill it. In the Quarantine and Health Act, chapter 63 of the statutes of 1868, to which I referred this afternoon, you will find in clause seven a distinct reference to public health, and that great powers in that respect were assumed by this parliament. It reads as follows :-
Whenever Canada or any part thereof appears to be threatened with any epidemic, endemic contagious or infectious disease the Governor may by proclamation make such regulations as he thinks proper and necessary to prevent the introduction of such disease from beyond the limits, or to prevent its spread within the limits of Canada, and otherwise protect the public healthy and he may, from time to time, revoke or amend i he same, or make others in their stead in like manner, and may impose penalties, forfeitures and punishments for the breach thereof, and such regulations shall be published at least twice in the ' Canada Gazette,' and the production of copies of the ' Gazette ' containing such proclamation, shall be evidence of the making, date and contents of such regulations.
This Act was in force from 1868 to 1872, when it was repealed at the instance of the Minister of Agriculture because he objected io paying the expense of carrying it out. But if that Act was legal in 1808, surely a similar Act will be legal now. If it were in contravention of the British North America Act in 1868, surely it would have been objected to, more especially as the British North America Act was fresh in the minds of the members of parliament of that day, among whom were the fathers of confederation. I therefore contend that while technically sanatoria are placed by the British North America Act in the hands of the provinces, the question of public health is not so placed.

Now I may say that this resolution of mine is general in its terms. I do not ask especially for sanatoria, but the association thought this was the best way to start the fight against this disease. At the same time they have no set plan, they ask for no special thing. We simply come before this parliament with this resolution, and if it is passed I will take it as a request to the government to appoint a commission, or to adopt some means to find out in what way this parliament may help to stop the spread of this disease and the great number of deaths caused by it, without in any way contravening the British North America Act.


William Mulock: There can be no objection whatever to the passage of the resolution. I think that the discussion itself will have a very beneficial effect in attracting public attention to a subject that so seriously , affects every household in the Dominion or Canada. There has been much light thrown upon the dreadful white plague within the last few years. Since the discoveries or the researches of Prof. Koch and his school of German scholars, the public have come to learn the first elements in connection witB the prevention of the disease. Until a recent date it was regarded as hereditary ; that theory appears to have given away to another one now, one that is better founded, and I think pretty well established in that by acting upon it there has been a great dimunition in the spread of this scourage. I had not the advantage, Mr. Speaker, of hearing the early part of the discussion, but I do not understand from the few explanations the Minister of Agriculture has given me of it, that he for a moment takes the ground that the Dominion government has not jurisdiction to some extent. It might be possible, by some species of technicality, to oust our jurisdiction in some ways, but still there are methods that every legislature and every community in Canada may take, each contributing within its sphere towards the abatement, and we will hope ultimately the extirpation of this great danger to human life. This subject, education, and the dissemination of information, is one clearly within the jurisdiction of every parliament. There can be nothing in any constitution that will prevent this parliament, or any parliament, or any legislative body, municipal or otherwise, from contributing towards enlightening the people how they may best prevent the extension and spread of the disease, and perhaps with more or less success confine the disease where it has acquired a foothold. I think I am safe in making the pledge on behalf of this government, that whatever we can do in aid of the very meritorious object of this resolution, will be done.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. ANGUS  A.@: McLEAN moved for :
Copies of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, writings, documents, memorials, Orders in Council, memorandum, or written or printed information of any kind not already down, which passed between the government of Canada, or of any minister or official thereof, in any wise relating to the claim of the province of Prince Edward Island to a share of the Halifax fishery award.
He said :	In making this motion, I desire to make a short statement. I noticed that in the speech from the Throne delivered by the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island at the opening of the session in 1903, it was stated that negotiations were then in progress with a view to settling this vexed question of the distribution of the Halifax fishery award. It was stated by the leader of the government of the province of Prince -Edward Island that a conference had taken place in Ottawa between the premiers of New Brunswick, Quebec and Prince Edward Island, at which the Minister of Justice of the Dominion of Canada was present, and that it was settled at that time that the question should be submitted to the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. The question came before the legislature during the session of 1903, and the premier of the province stated that negotiations with reference to the submission of the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada had been for some reason abandoned, and that negotiations were going on with a view to having the matter submitted to the decision of the Privy Council in England. It seems that though this took place some eighteen months ago. nothing, so far as the people of the maritime provinces know, has taken place since. I think it would be very interesting to the people of the maritime provinces, and to the others interested in the distribution of this award, to know what the negotiations are and how they stand to-day, and when, if at all, the distribution of this large amount will take place.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYCE moved for :
Copies of all correspondence and documents relating to an application to the Board of Railway Commissioners, and relating to an application lately before the said board, by the towns of Port Arthur and Fort William, to obtain access for their municipal telephone system into the offices of the stations of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the two towns. And for copies of all correspondence between the said towns of Port Arthur and Fort William, and the officers thereof, with the government, with reference to such application, or prior or subsequent thereto. Also copies of any report or recommendation, decision or order made by the Railway Commissioners with reference to
[Stage Direction]
suclx application or applications, or incident thereto.
William Findlay Maclean: Before that motion is carried 1 wish to refer for a moment to an incident that occurred within the last few days on this very question. The Prime Minister then made the statement that he thought well of introducing a General Act dealing with the telephone question in this country, and his attention at that time was called to this very substantial grievance in connection with the use of telephones in the towns of Port Arthur and Fort William. It has been pointed out in this House time after time that the decision, so far as the country is concerned, is a very interesting one, and that while the former Minister of Railways put a clause in the Railway Act compelling railroad companies to give access in their stations to all telephone companies, that Act was interpreted by the then chairman of the Railway Commission to mean that the compensation to be paid railways and to railway companies was of a general character and that they were entitled to large damages if such a thing took place.
Now, my belief is that the claim cannot be justified, that this contract, as it exists between the Bell Telephone Company and the railway companies, is against the public interest, is against the provisions of the Railway Act and if investigated by the govern-meiit or in the courts, or if it were referred to the Supreme Court, it would be declared to be unconstitutional and against the public interest. Time after time this question has come up. The then Minister of Railways and Canals, when he passed his Railway Act and when he put that provision into the Act which secured telephonic entrance into all stations for all companies, said that the object desired at that time would be secured. It was not secured, but the then Minister of Railways and Canals went upon the Railway Commission as chairman of that commission and he interpreted that Act, as far as I can read his judgment, as against the public interest, as in the interest of the Bell Telephone Company, and although that decision wras given months and months ago, nothing has been done to ascertain the rights of the public in this matter. Day after day we are passing legislation in this House in the interest of the three great railway companies who are parties to that contract which is against the public interest. I say it is the duty of the government not only to remedy the grievance, not only to make it clear in the Railway Act that this relief should be afforded, but that we should say to these railway companies : Until you grant the public the remedy of the grievance complained of in this matter we refuse to give you any legislation that you desire. East year the Grand Trunk Railway Company was given the greatest franchise that was ever given in this country. The Canadian Pacific Railway, every session of this parlia-Mr. BOYCE.
ment, is given franchises and concessions of various kinds, and the only thing to be done on the part of the government, if they are interested in the public welfare, is to say to these railway corporations : Not one thing more will you get from this House or from this government until you remedy that grievance. But, the companies get more legislation and the grievance complained of is not remedied. This matter will come up later on in this session and it may come up during this very week, but again I point out that the cure of this grievance complained of is in the hands of the government, that they can cure it by legislation and they are bound to do it, they can cure it by negotiation with the companies or they can cure it by passing an Act declaring that such contracts are against the public interest. Then, for a moment let us recall what this contract involves. The Canadian Pacific Railway which had immense subsidies in money and immense grants of land from the people and great franchises, and the Grant Trunk Railway Company, which had the same from the people of this country and which only within the last two years got the greatest franchise that was ever given by this country, make a contract with the Bell Telephone Company that no independent telephone company shall have access to any railway station unless it be the Bell Telephone Company. My hon. friend from Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) pointed out the other day how far this thing was carried. In this county there is no Bell Telephone service given to the people, but so strong is the Bell Telephone Company under this contract that they say that the independent company shall not have a connection with the railway station. In Port Arthur and Fort William they have a splendid municipal telephone service. That telephone service is refused access to the Canadian Pacific Railway station and the Canadian Northern station, and yet the people of Port Arthur and Fort William are the main customers in those towns of both those railways. They are the people who do business with the railways, the people who travel over the railways the people who furnish and receive freight from these railways, and yet by reason of this iniquitous, agreement, this agreement which is contrary to public policy and which should be declared to be contrary to public policy if the government were alive to their responsibilities is allowed to continue. For two years now this thing has continued. For two years attempts have been made to direct the attention of the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson) to this iniquitous agreement but so far he has had nothing to say on the question. So far he has not facilitated ,the consideration of the question by the Supreme Court as the law provides but he has allowed it to drag along and that is the position of the question to-day. Surely the government have enough courage, surely they have a sufficiently high conception of their duty
*4

to the people to tell these railway companies that if they do not cancel that contract the government will find a way of passing a law to abolish it. But. so far they have done nothing in that direction. What is the strength of the Bell Telephone Company in this country that they are allowed to maintain a monopoly of that kind ? I do not know what is the cause of the influence that they seem to have, hut every proposition that was made during the discussion of the Railway Act that seemed to tread on the corns of the Bell Telephone monopoly was objected to, no attention is paid to the demand for redress of the grievance which is now complained of, and the Bell Telephone monopoly is allowed to ride roughshod not only over the rights of the people but over the rights of municipalities and provinces. The responsibility must rest with the administration of the day to And a cure for the existing state of things. It is all very well to tell the people at Port Arthur, Fort William, Locust Hill and Labelle to go to the courts and maintain their rights but their is an easy way to correct this grievance and that way" is for the government to exercise the power that undoubtedly rests in them of declaring the contract to be against public interest, to rescind the Act if necessary and compel the company to treat every one justly. As I pointed out in the House the other day in connection wuth this subject the Bell Telephone Company was incorporated in this country for the public interest, and any company incorporated for the public interest is bound to treat every section of the community fairly and equitably. They do not treat every one equitably. They only allow Bell Telephone customers to have access to the railway stations. In two ways this grievance can be remedied immediately. It can be remedied immediately by a change in the Railway Act and it can be remedied by a general law in so far as this parliament has control over corporations created by this parliament. Again I ask the government : Why is this remedy denied ? Why have they not courage to rectify this grievance? Is it that the men who are identified with the Bell Telephone Company are warm political friends of theirs ? The only explanation I can arrive at after all that has taken place is that in some way political friendship has more control here than has the public interest, and I ask hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House why it is that this grievance of two years standing is not rectified and why we have to make motions of this kind, why we have to go to the courts and make motions of another kind when the power to remedy this grievance is in the hands of the government.


William Mulock: Mr. Speaker, 1 understand that the Railway Act has referred to the Railway Commision the determination of a question of this kind. I do not think any lawyer will say that the commissioners have not power to deal with
this question. This is a motion respecting the Bell Telephone Company in two towns and a question arising under somewhat exclusive powers given by the Canadian Pacific Railway, I believe, to the Bell Telephone Company at these points. The matter came before the Board of Railway Commissioners after having heard evidence they gave judgment declaring that the exclusive privilege should come to an end, and that the only question remaining to be determined was that of compensation. I am not aware that the parties to the litigation, if we may so describe the nature of the strife, have since brought the subject before the commissioners.


Mr. BOYCE.: When was that judgment
given ?


William Mulock: I believe it was given about last July. I do not remember exactly, but I remember reading the opinion of each commissioner. The result of their finding was that they would not yield to the contention of the Bell Telephone Company that it could exclude other lines from access to the Canadian Pacific Railway and they declined to allow the Canadian Pacific Railway to shelter itself behind the special contract made with the Bell Telephone Company and exclude other companies from access to their station. The question, therefore, simply became one of compensation, as to whether the applying company should pay compensation, not only for installing their wires, but also the damage for a breach of contract. That is the great question involved. I do not understand that any of the commissioners have expressed any opinion on that point. They have simply affirmed that it is a question of compensation, and if the parties desire to have an opinion and would prosecute the inquiry, then they would get a judgment from the commissioners as to their view of the law, as to whether or not in their judgment the company, the Canadian Pacific or the Bell Telephone Company, was entitled to any consequential damages by reason of the setting aside of this contract. I think that before we commence to amend laws we should try to find out what they mean by the proper tribunal and there is a proper tribunal to-day to determine the question. Of course we cannot prevent people, making such suggestions as have fallen from the lips of the hon. member for South York (Mr. W. F. Maclean) ; I can only say that I am quite satisfied that there is no foundation for his suspicions whatever. We have, we think, vested the subject in an independent and competent tribunal, composed of three gentlemen who I believe are in no way biased by considerations towards any of the parties interested but are influenced only by a high consideration of public duty and high regard for the law. If that question, therefore, were threshed out, and we had a decision either from that tribunal or from the Supreme Court,-for the parties

have a right to appeal to the Supreme Court, -then parliament would know whether or not the present legislation was adequate to meet the situation, and if it was not, parliament would then be in a position to consider what would be proper amendments to the law.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I can assure the hon. Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) that I am not indulging in satire when I say that the House must be indebted to him for his explanation of this all-important question, and I must express my regret that the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. H. R. Emmerson) was not so well informed, so anxious or so willing to give information, as the minister who has given the explanation to-night. I would draw the attention of the minister and of the House, with regard to the explanation of the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock), that on the 6th day of February of the present session, I formally asked certain questions which will be found at page 595 of ' Hansard ' (Revised). The questions were as follows :
What is the present status of the application now before the Board of Railway Commissioners, of the town of Port Arthur and Port William, to get access for their municipal telephone system into the Canadian Pacific Railway stations in the two towns ?
Did I get an answer, Sir, to that question ? Did the Minister of Railways who is supposed to have knowledge of these facts, to have the knowledge which the Postmaster General has given, vouchsafe any explanation in answer to this or any other question ? No, Sir. The minister said that he would ask that X make a motion for a return. For what purpose ? Was it to obtain delay ? The information given by the Postmaster General was clearly in the hands of the government and was important to the people directly concerned, to the towns of Port Arthur and Fort William, to the municipalities generally, to the country at large and to this House. It was information directly in the custody and control of the government and it has been disclosed here tonight.


William Mulock: The judgments were published in the press and my information as to the opinions of the commissioners was derived from perusing the judgments in the press.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: If the matter can be referred to now, if the Postmaster General can refer to a judgment, can give dicta of the judges, and a synopsis of the judgment pronounced last summer, surely, when a question is regularly put upon the order paper it should be answered by the Minister of Railways and Canals, who is supposed to have knowledge or who could have acquired it from the records. The next question was :
Did the Board of Railway Commissioners decide that' the Canadian Pacific Railway must Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
allow the municipal telephone system in Port Arthur and Fort William to be connected with the railway stations on the payment of compensation ? If so, has the order been carried out ?
There was a judgment of the Railway Commission, if we are to judge by the remarks of the Postmaster General. Surely the Minister of Railways should have looked up that judgment. Surely it was in his power to send for the record and give an answer, yes or no, to that very simple question. I need not comment on the fact that he did not answer the latter part of it. He might have been able to say it was not within his knowledge. There are many matters that are not within the ministerial knowledge of that hon. gentleman, but the fact might have been within his knowledge as to whether or not that order had been carried out. The third question was :
Has the extent of the compensation to be paid to the Canadian Pacific Railway been determined ? If so, by whom, and what is the amount ? If not, who will determine it ?
If I understand the remarks of the Postmaster General upon that point, that question might have been answered by a direct negative, if the information now given by the Postmaster General was correct that the question of compensation had not been decided. Then question four was :
Is the government aware that the municipalities throughout Canada are anxiously awaiting the final settlement of this question, other applications being dependent upon the result ?
The hon. gentleman might have found it difficult to answer that question, and possibly there may be something in the fact that he withheld answers to all the questions because of the difficulties in the way of answering the fourth question, but the hon. gentleman said that he would ask me to move for a return. A return of what ? Might I ask the Minister of Railways, a return of what ? Why put this House to the trouble, why encumber the records of this House with a motion for an address to the Crown for a return of all these documents when the simple answers to the questions might have been given if there was nothing to conceal ? I think it is due to the House that the Minister of Railways should explain how it is that these questions, which are so simple, should not be answered.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Will my hon. friend give the date on which he asked the question ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: On the 6th of February on page 595 of Hansard. I think it is due to this House that the hon Minister of Railways should now explain how it was that on that date lie could not or would not give a defi-inite answer to these questions, while he has given the information with which he has

favoured this House to-night, showing that it was within his power to obtain the answers and they were within his personal knowledge. But there is in question something to which my hon. friend from South York referred the other day, and which may have occasioned the hon. minister some little difficulty, that is, the question of the rights of municipalities in this important matter- a question on which the hon. gentleman perhaps thought there was a little danger of committing the government either to one policy or the other, and as to which he was treading on somewhat dangerous ground. The municipalities, as the hon. gentleman perhaps knows, and as perhaps he knew when these questions were before him, are and have been awaiting a decision of these important questions. The municipalities are anxious to know whether they can he held up in this way by the corporations or auj number of corporations enjoying public franchises granted to them by this parliament. It is of the utmost importance that the municipalities should be informed with regard to what their rights are, and if the facts be, as shown by the hon. member for South York, that in this case as in other cases the franchise granted to the Bell Telephone Company has enabled it to exclude municipal franchises and to trample on the rights of other corporations and individuals, the sooner that state of affairs is put an end to the better it will be for the liberties of the people.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Mr. Speaker, I do not know that in answering the question put by my hon. friend on February 6 I did not cover all the points mentioned in that question. My hon. friend, if I am to judge by his tone and attitude in this House, would never confess that he lacked any information or that he was unable to answer any question that might be put to him. I invite the attention of the House to the question:
What is the present status of the application now before the Board of Railway Commissioners of the town of Port Arthur and Fort William, to get access for their municipal telephone system into the Canadian Pacific Railway stations in the two towns ?
My hon. friend, I understand, is a lawyer, and I am sure that he will recognize that there is a question of law. He must bear in mind that it was the subject matter of litigation before the Railway Commission, that the commission had delivered a judgment in respect to it, and, therefore, the best information that could be given to this House and the country in regard to it would be a return of the judgment delivered by that tribunal. My hon. friend the Postmaster General has given his opinion with respect to this case, but my hon. friend did not for a moment contend that he was giving more than his own interpretation of the judgment delivered by that court. The next question was :
Did the Board of Railway Commissioners decide that the Canadian Pacific Railway must allow the municipal telephone system in Port Arthur and Fort William to be connected with the railway stations on the payment of compensation ?
That is a question that can only be fully and amply answered by a recital of the judgment. I could have brought to this House the judgment, and I could have read it, but that would not have been a proper answer; that is not the ordinary way ot answering these questions. My hon.; friend might very well have read it himself. The whole question could be best answered by a return of the papers, which are in the possession of the Board of Railway Commissioners. They are not in the Department of Railways and have no connection with that department. A return will bring all these papers before this House, and my hon. friend and all others will then be in a position to form their own opinions on the subject; because it is a matter of legal interpretation just what the status was and what that tribunal decided. My opinion as to what it was might differ materially from that of my hon. friend or that of any other hon. member of this House. In fact, as I understand it, there is a difference of opinion among lawyers as to the status of the case; there is a difference of opinion even among the members of the Board of Railway Commissioners; so that it would not be for me to interpret the judgment. My hon. friend might assume to do all this, but certainly, with all modesty, I would refrain from attempting to give my judgment as to the conclusion at which that court has arrived.


Robert Laird Borden: If the question asked by my hon. friend were a question of law, it would not be a proper question at all, as the Minister of Railways ought to know. Questions of law are not put across the floor of this House. The question asked was not a question of law in the ordinary sense. It was a question as to the effect of a judgment.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is a question of law.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it? That is news. For example, when the Privy Council dismissed the appeal of the provinces of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, could we not ask across the floor of the House what that decision was? Would not the answer be that this parliament had the power to pass the legislation which it had passed? Would that be a question of law in the ordinary sense? I have heard the Minister of Justice in this House over and over again state the effect of a judgment.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Will my hon. friend pardon me for a moment ? The Privy Council decided a case with reference to the fisheries situation in this Dominion, and I believe it is a question of law to-day what that decision was. It is a disputed point and a

point that has to be referred, as I understand, to the courts to determine.


Robert Laird Borden: Does that suggestion illumine the situation very much ? If this were a question of law, how are you going to improve it by moving for a return? If the judgment were of a complicated character, my hon. friend the Minister of Railways need simply have given what he considered to be its effect and lay the copy of it on the table. If the judgment were not complicated and its effect could be stated in a few words, my hon. friend could very easily have stated it, as the Postmaster General did to-night, pointing out in that regard to the Minister of Railways what he might very well have done. How are you going to deal with this question :
What is the present status of the application now before the Board of Railway Commissioners


Henry Robert Emmerson: The judgment will show it.


Robert Laird Borden: And my hon. friend ought to be able to state it in a few words.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My interpretation might be different from that of my hon. friend.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman might have stated his opinion as to the effect of the judgment, and laid a copy of it on the table. How are you going to deal with this question : ' Has the question of compensation to be paid to the Canadian Pacific Railway been determined ? ' Did the government understand it had not ? We would like to have the information in possession of the government. Then take this question : ' If so, by whom, and what is the amount ? ' Surely you do not want a return for that ? Take the last question :
Is the government aware that the municipalities throughout Canada are anxiously awaiting the final settlement of this question, other applications being dependent upon the result ?
How are you going to deal with that by means of a return ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The municipalities in the east are not.


Robert Laird Borden: Well, the hon. gentleman might give the information with regard to the east which he happens to possess. I would only suggest to him that on other occasions he has answered questions in a very courteous way, the answers to which, I think, took up more room in ' Hansard ' than the answer to this would occupy. Look, for instance, at the reply in the ' Hansard ' of the 8th February to the question of my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster). Look at the host of other questions which have been answered by the hon. gentleman and other members of the government. If the same attention had Mr. EMMERSON.
been paid to this question, it would not have been necessary to waste time in moving for returns.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend says that I have courteously answered other questions. I assure him that I intended no discourtesy in asking that a return be moved for in this case.


Robert Laird Borden: Certainly ; I did not intend to suggest that. I was only endeavouring to impress upon my hon. friend that if he had given the matter a little attention there would have been no great difficulty in putting such an answer on ' Hansard,' and placing such documents on the table as would have made a motion absolutely unnecessary.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. WARD-by Mr. Sam. Hughes-moved:
For copies of all correspondence, documents and other papers relating to the claim of Mr. James Clark, of the township of Otonabee, for compensation for land drowned by the waters of the Otonabee river, caused by the government works on the Trent Valley canal.
Henry Robert Emmerson: There appears to be no record of any correspondence whatever in the department in relation to a claim of James Clark of the township of Otonabee, for compensation for land drowned by the waters of the Otonabee in consequence of the works of the government on the Trent Valley canal.


Samuel Hughes: There may be some mistake in the name. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the motion might be allowed to stand until the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Ward) is here.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Stand.


COST OF SURVEYS-NORTHWEST TERRITORIES.
William James Roche: For a return showing the number of miles of land in the Northwest' Territories surveyed in block outlines, and the cost per mile ; the number of miles of township outlines, and the cost per mile ; the number of acres subdivided, and the cost per acre ; for the years 1880, 1881, 1882, 1883, 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903 ; the average for the first four years, and the average for the latter four years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would ask the mover of the motion to agree to amend it slightly by inserting after the word ' acre ' in the fourth line as printed in the Orders of the Day, the following words : ' The proportion of open prairie to the whole of the land surveyed; the contract survey rate per mile of

section line in open prairie ; the rate of pay of surveyors employed by the day.'


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended, agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
For copies of all correspondence addressed to the government, or any minister, in reference to the cables of the Empire.-Mr. Logan.
For copies of all correspondence between the government, or any minister, and any party or parties, concerning the dismissal of the postmaster at St. Claude, Manitoba, Mr. J. P. Ben-rier, on or about the 1st day of November, 1904.-Mr. Staples.
For a return showing the amount and nature of each and every claim that has been made by the firm of P. Lyall & Sons, for extras in connection with their contract for the erection of steel sheds in the port of Montreal ; and further indicating in each instance whether the claim has been admitted and approved by the Harbour Commissioners or their chief engineer ; whether it has been recommended for payment by the government superintendent engineer ; and in case of dispute between the engineers, what decision the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has given in each case ; and the amount paid or agreed to be paid to the contractor in connection with each claim.-Mr. Ames.
For a return setting forth seriatim all orders given for works or for supplies by the Department of Marine and Fisheries since July 1st, 1903, without having previously invited tenders by public advertisement, as provided for in article 5 of the Act 55-56 Victoria, chapter 17.- Mr. Lalor.
For a return showing the date of sailing of each vessel from Canada to South Africa, under the contract made in 1902 with the government of Canada, for the establishment of steamship service' with South Africa. Also showing the respective nature, quantities and values of the various exports carried from Canada to South Africa by each vessel on each sailing.-Mr. Alex. Johnston.
For a return showing the number of railway and steamboat disasters in Canada in 1904. The number in which investigation for cause was made, such cause, and the cause given. The means, if any employed by the proper authorities to prevent the recurrence of such accidents, wherever due to any preventable cause. The methods adopted in England where railway accidents are so rare, and any other information which may lead to the safe-guarding of the lives and property of Canadians, obliged to make use of those public facilities.-Mr. Alex. Martin.
For a copy of all correspondence relating to the Order in Council of 25th of August, 1904, providing for the preparation of voters' lists in the unorganized territories of Ontario together with a copy of such Order in Council, and all correspondence relating to the voters' lists prepared under or pursuant to such Order in Council, and especially all correspondence between any of the ministers or their deputies or officers in any of the departments, and the following persons, namely :	His Honour Edward O'Connor, junior judge of Algoma, W. A. Quibell. police magistrate, Sault Ste. Marie, W. H. Carney, sheriff of Algoma, J. J. Kehoe,
clerk of the peace of Algoma, Jacob Stevenson, Sault St. Marie, and all other persons, relating to the preparation or revision of such voters' lists. Also for copies of all instructions sent, issued or delivered to any of the said persons, or to any other persons, relative to the preparation or revision of such voters' lists, or any of them.-Mr. Boyce.
For a return showing the number and the names of all the public buildings erected by the Federal government in the different provinces since confederation, and the cost of the same.-Mr. A. Lavergne.
For a return showing the quantitiesfof anthracite coal used in the several departments of the government of Canada, in the provinces of Quebec" New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, in the years 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903 and 1904. Also of the total expenditure per year for said coal for each of said provinces during said years ; and separately, the names of the parties to whom paid, and the price per ton paid to each.-'Mr. A. A. McLean.
For copies of all correspondence had with the government in regard to the delay in printing the reports of the Supreme Court.-Mr. Monk.
For a return showing the sums of money spent by the Dominion government since 1896 upon each of the following :	(a) Port Arthur
Harbour ;	(b) Fort William Harbour ;	(c)Kaministiquia River ; classified into (1) dredging ;	(2) breakwaters ;	(3) other purposes.The quantities of each of the following to be excavated during 1905-6 in each of the three locations above named :	mud and sand, clay,
hard-pan, rock. The dates and terms of the contracts entered into with those engaged in dredging at the aforesaid points in 1903-4 and 1904-05. The said contracts. The horse-power, tonnage and dimensions of each of the dredges engaged in the said work. The cost of dredges newly built, similar to those engaged at the above three points.-Mr. Sam. Hughes.
For a return showing in tabular form the amounts first voted for public buildings in towns in Canada of not more than 5,000 inhabitants ; the year in which the first amount was in each case voted ; the total amount expended to complete each building ; the year in which it was completed ; the revenue derived from post office, customs and inland revenue, separately, for the year in which the first vote was taken ; and the rentals paid for the buildings in use for the above services during same year, and the population of each town for that year ; said return to cover the period from January, 1888, to February, 1905, inclusive.-Ml-. Foster.
For copies of all correspondence, papers, letters, recommendations, reports, petitions, &c., in possession of the government or any member or official thereof, relating to the dismissal of Henry Curtis Lawson, as postmaster at Stanhope, Prince Edward Island, and the appointment of his successor.-Mr. A. Martin.
For a return showing the number of witnesses who appeared before the Agriculture Committee, whose expenses were paid by Jhe government, for each year from 1896 to 1904, inclusive; the amount paid to each such witness ; the name of each, where each came from, when their attendance was required and at whose instance each such witness was brought.-Mr. A. Wilson.
For copies of all reports made by Mr. Burley, I or any other officer, in regard to reservations
[Stage Direction]
of water rights for stock purposes in the Northwest Territories during the last five years.- W. J. Roche.
For a return showing the amount of money expended in equipping and provisioning the government steamship * Canada ' ; the names of those who received orders in or due connection therewith; and the amount paid to each. Also the number of officers and men employed on the said steamship ; together with a statement of the pay of said officers and men ; and the terms of engagement of said officers and men.-Mr. Monk.
For a return showing the total amount expended in wages to men employed at the Sorel shipyard, from the 30th June, 1904, to the 1st February, 1905 indicating separately "the amount so expended for each month. Also the total amount expended in purchases for the same shipyard during the same period.-Mr. Monk.
For copies of all correspondence between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and Mr. A. E. Dyment, M.P.; and also between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the late commissioner of fisheries of Ontario, the Honourable Mr. Latehford, during the past four years, regarding the granting of pound net licenses east of Little Current, Manitoulin Island, to Mr. T. H. Jackman, of Killarney, Ontario.-Mr. Crocket.
For a return showing (a) when and to whom circulars or other communications were issued or sent by or through the agencies of the Department of Marine and Fisheries at Quebec, Charlottetown, St. John and Halifax, respectively, inviting private tenders for supplies, (in cases where public tenders were not called for by newspaper advertisement), and copies of all such circulars and communications ;	(b) from
whom replies to such circulars were received, and copies of such replies ;	(c) who in consequence of .such reply, received contra,cts or orders for supplies or commodities required during the year ending June 30th, 1904, by vessels under control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries ;	(d) copies of all correspondence in reference to these private tenders, or to the supplies or commodities so required or furnished, exchanged between the minister or his deputy and the above named agencies.-Mr. Ames.

[Stage Direction]
On the order :
Second reading of Bill (No. 44) to amend the Act respecting Certificates to Masters and Mates of Ships.-Mr. Lancaster.
Mr. LANCASTER.: The Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) this afternoon asked me to allow this order to stand until next day on account of the absence of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick).


Robert Franklin Sutherland: Stand.


EXCHEQUER COURT-RAILWAY DEBTS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 59) to amend the Act respecting the jurisdiction of the Exchequer Court as to Railway Debts-Mr. Geoffrion-was read the second time, and House went into committee on the Bill.
Mr., FISHER.
Robert Laird Borden: I think we ought to have some explanation as to why this is necessary and whether it would be advisable to make it of general application. What is the particular object ?


Mr. Y. GEOFFRION.: Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) wish to know why it is proposed to apply it only to the province of Quebec?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Victor Geoffrion: It is because that (provision was placed in the old Insolvent Act and Winding Up Act. I understand that the other provinces do not care about having this inserted, because they have a different system ; but in the province of Quebec there is the difficulty that only judicial sales made by the sheriff clear immovable property from all incumbrances. For instance, in the old Insolvent Act such a provision was inserted. In cbhpter 16, section 76, 38 Vic., 1875, there is this provision :
All sales of real estate made by the assignee shall vest in the purchasers all the legal and equitable estates of the insolvent therein, and the conveyance may be in the form ' N ' ; but in the province of Quebec such sale shall, in all respects, have the same effect as to mortgages, hypothecs or privileges then existing thereon, as if the same had been made by a sheriff under a writ of execution issued 1 in the ordinary course, but shall have no other greater or less effect than such sheriff's sale, and in the province of Quebec the title conveyed by such sale shall have no equal validity with a title created by a sheriff's sale.
Now we passed an Act in 1903 giving jurisdiction to the Exchequer Court, in case of the insolvency of a railway, to put it in the hands of a receiver, who may proceed to sell it. But when we came to apply that law in the province of Quebec to the Quebec Southern road, and the road was put up for sale, nobody would buy it, because a clear title could not be given. This was clearly an oversight in the law of 1903, and by this Bill I wish to give to a sale made by the Exchequer Court, the very same effect as a sale by a sheriff in the province of Quebec, and to apply the same principle as was applied in the old Insolvency Act and the Winding Up Act. I think the members of this House will see the necessity of amending the Act in the way I have pointed out; particularly is there a necessity for this amendment in the province of Quebec. But I have no objection to make it applicable to all the provinces, although another system seems to prevail in the other provinces. But I have no objection to amend it so that it will apply to all the provinces. In any case, I desire to provide that a sale made by the Exchequer Court shall convey the same guarantee and the same title as a sale made by a sheriff in the province of Quebec.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course it is highly desirable that any title obtained under a judicial sale such as this should be a good title, or at least that any one purchasing should know exactly what he is purchasing. I am not at all suggesting that some amendment to the law should not be made ; but if the Act is defective so far as the province of Quebec is concerned,
I do not see how it can be absolutely effective so far as the other provinces are concerned. It is the practice in Nova Scotia, for the most part, to have judicial sales conducted by Sheriffs under the direction of the court, and that practice, as I understand, prevails in the province of Quebec ; in the province of Ontario, I think it is different; there judicial sales, at least sales under mortgage, and I suppose all judicial sales are conducted by the master in chancery.


William Mulock: By any officer appointed for the purpose.


Henry Robert Emmerson: In New Brunswick it is by a referee in equity.


Robert Laird Borden: Well, I think we should have the same general legislation making such sales legal in all the provinces, and we should have some provision, either in this Act or by means of power given to the judge of the Exchequer Court, to make rules, if that is not already in existence, so that we may have the same uniform practice throughout the whole country. I would think it undesirable for courts of this character, having jurisdiction in every province in Canada, to have one practice in one province and another practice in another province ; except of course in so far as such variation may be absolutely necessary in consequence of the different systems of jurisprudence which prevail in this country.


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: My hon. friend (Mr. Geoffrion) has not pointed out, at least I did not hear him point out, that this law is applicable to a railway communicating between two provinces. Is it intended to be a law applicable exclusively to railways generally, or merely to railways of one province ? If it is applicable to railways connecting different provinces, it is impossible to accept the measure.


Victor Geoffrion: The law applies only to railways under the jurisdiction of the federal government. That is evident by the Act, Edward VII., chap. 21, which applies only to railways under the jurisdiction of the federal parliament.


Charles Fitzpatrick: In that event I suggest that we might possibly have this condition of things, that a railway going through the province of Quebec and the province of Ontario, or any other province, would be dealt with differently as to that part of its road in the province of Quebec is concerned, from the way in which you
would deal with it in another part of the country. I say that is impossible.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, here you have its application to a railway wholly within the province of Quebec.


Charles Fitzpatrick: Then it would be entirely different.


Robert Laird Borden: I take it for granted. although I did not hear the hon. gentleman perfectly, that he had reference to a railway of that character.


Charles Fitzpatrick: My hon. friend (Mr. Geoffrion) suggested that the legislation would be applicable to railways connecting different provinces of the country. However, I think my hon. friend had better allow the Bill to stand until such time as I [DOT] have an opportunity to confer with him.


Victor Geoffrion: I have no objection.
Mr. FITZPATRICK moved that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Sir WILDIAM MULOCK (Postmaster General) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['It is estimated to cost $2,000. It is for hauling scows along the line for repairs.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Sir William Muloclc, House adjourned at 11.15 p.m.', 'Tuesday, February 21, 1905.']
Samuel Hughes: of over two million dollars to the British taxpayer.
While the control of the Halifax and Esquimau garrisons will pass into the hands of Canada on July 1, the Dominion will only take over the different services gradually. There is certain work with which Canadians are not yet familiar, and British officers and men will continue in such positions until 'Canadians qualify. Canada could supply the necessary infantry in short order, hut it would take some time to get an engineering staff, &c.
Canada regards with great favour the compliment which Britain has paid her in handing over these important defences to her care. The trust will be well looked after. Great credit is due Lord Grey for the interest he has taken in carrying these negotiations to a speedy and satisfactory conclusion.
It will be remembered that during the colonial conference Sir Frederick Borden made an offer to take over Halifax and Esquimau defences. Canada is prepared to pay every dollar that is required for Canadian defences on Canadian soil.
I do not know whether this article is inspired or not, especially the last clause of it, where it speaks of Canadian defences on Canadian soil. As far as I am personally concerned, I hope the statement is not true. I would be very sorry that Great Britain should so far forget her duties to the empire as to surrender Halifax and Esquimalt; and, secondly, I hope that if Canada is to contribute to Imperial defence -and I trust at no far distant day she will -in place of garrisoning Halifax and Esquimau, she may be found garrisoning Portsmouth, Gibraltar, Malta and other places, and we will contribute our fair share towards the defence of the empire. I notified the hon. minister that I would bring this up, and I would be pleased to receive his statement.


Rt Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, I may say at once to my hon. friend (Mr. Sam. Hughes), and to the House, that the article which he has read was not inspired by the government, nor by any member of it, so far as I know ; in fact, it was an entirely unauthorized publication. However, it may be a convenient opportunity at this moment to state what has happened. I had intended to make a statement when the negotiations, which are now pending, were completed, and to lay the papers on the table of the House then ; but, as the matter has been mentioned. I desire to say that it is true that Canada, a short time ago, renewed the offer which was made to the Imperial government as long ago as 1902, at the time of the colonial conference, to relieve the mother country from all expenditure in maintaining the garrisons of Halifax and Esquimau, and that the offer has been gladly accepted by the Imperial authorities. Correspondence is now going on and negotiations pending by which the transfer can be carried out. The principles upon which this transfer is to be made are these : First, that the Dominion government shall con-Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
trol these garrisons, and secondly that the Dominion government shall bear all the expenditure connected with maintaining them. In 1902, as I have said, in the papers which were exchanged between the government and the Colonial Office, and which form part of the papers which have been laid on the table of the House, giving the details of what took place at the colonial conference, it was stated in general terms-and there can be no doubt as to the meaning-that while Canada was not able to accept the suggestions of the' Imperial government-the War Office and the Admiralty particularly-as to the method by which Canada would aid in the defence of the empire, the government and people of Canada would be desirous of relieving the Britsh tax-payer, so far as that could possibly be done, and it seemed to the government, as I am sure it will appear to the people of this country, that obviously the first way in which that could be done would be by relieving the mother country from expenditure on Canadian territory. I will only make a single allusion to what my hon. friend said, and I am sorry that he differs from my views in this matter. I believe he will find that he is differing from the views of a large majority of the people of this country. My hon. friend, while he is not willing to take over the responsibility for the expenditure in connection with the garrisons at Halifax and Esquimau, wishes to send troops to Malta and other places outside of the country. Let me say to my hon. friend that charity begins at home. Let us discharge our responsibilities within our own borders first. I hope, during the present session, at any rate, to be able to lay all the papers connected with this matter upon the table of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: Before the hon. gentleman (Sir Frederick Borden) sits down, I woud like to ask him one question. It will be more convenient, of course, to discuss the question fully when the papers are brought down. Will these two ports. Esquimau and Halifax, be maintained in the same state of efficiency as they have in the past as far as the fortifications are concerned ?	'


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: Probably so.


Robert Laird Borden: It has been suggested, as far as Halifax is concerned, that the main reason for maintaining the fortifications which exist there at the present time is the fact that Halifax is a naval base for the North Atlantic squadron. If it is not to be a naval base in the future, will that modify the' attitude of the government in regard to these fortifications, or is there any probability that, although it is not intended in the immediate future that it shall be retained as a naval base, the policy which apparently has been entered upon by

the Imperial government in that regard may in the future be modified ? I have heard suggestions along both of these lines from gentlemen who ought to be pretty well informed on the subject, and possibly the hon. minister, without discussing the matter very fully, can give the House some statement as to what the future is to be in that regard in connection with these two points.


Frederick William Borden: I regret that I am not sufficiently well informed to answer that question, but I may say to my hon. friend that, so far as the negotiations have gone, there is no indication of any intention on the part of the British government to abandon Halifax as a naval base.


Robert Laird Borden: But have they not dismantled the dockyard ?


Frederick William Borden: Well, they have removed some men from there but I do not think they have dismantled it in that sense. I think it is to be continued as a naval base.


Robert Laird Borden: I had a different impression. However, the hon. gentleman (Sir Frederick Borden) may be right.



Robert Laird Borden: Before you leave the chair, I would like to ask the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) who is leading the House in the absence of the hon. the Prime Minister, to give, not to-night but at some future date, information to the House with regard to a certain matter affecting recent elections in some constitu-eices of Canada. If the hon. gentleman will refer to section 21 of the Dominion Elections Act, 1900, he will observe that it is therein provided that :
Immediately after the issue of the writ of election the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery shall transmit to the returning officer a sufficient number of copies of voters' lists, if there are any, one copy of this Act and of such instructions approved by the Governor in Council as are required to carry out the election according to the provisions of this Act

That is the important part of it. a sufficient number of copies of the voters' lists.
By another provision of the same Act which is to be found in section 92 subsection 3 and which deals with the duties of the returning officer after the election it is provided that:
The returning officer shall also transmit to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery the writ, With his return, the stamp furnished him for stamping the ballot papers and all the ballot papers, including those unused, the original statements of the several deputy returning officers, hereinbefore referred to, together with the lists of voters and poll-books, used in the several polling divisions.
The Postmaster General will observe that, in short, there is a direction to the Clerk of
the Crown in Chancery to forward to the returning officer a sufficient number of copies of the voters' lists and a further direction to him, after the election has been completed, to return to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery the voters' lists that have just been used in the several polling divisions. It has been a matter of public notoriety and the circumstances >
has, as I understand, been disclosed in judicial proceedings in Manitoba, that the voters' lists which should have been returned to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery by the several returning officers have not been so returned, or at least they are not forthcoming, although they have been required under subpoena and by the ordinary process of law in proceedings in Manitoba. I would like information from the government as to whether or not all the voters' lists so used in the several polling districts in the electoral divisions of Brandon, Lisgar, Marquette, Macdonald, Proveneher, Portage la Prairie, Selkirk and Souris, have been returned to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery. I would like also any information which may be in the possession of the government as to the reasons for any difficulty w'hich has occurred in procuring for production in evidence these documents which should have been returned by tfie returning officers to whom I have alluded. I thought this matter of sufficient importance to justify me in bringing this subject to the attention of the government in this way because these officials, as is well understood, are officers of this House. They are bound to obey the provisions of the statute to which I have referred and if through any malfeasance, or indeed through any unintentional dereliction of duty, through carelessness merely, they have not returned these lists as they were bound to do under the law. it may be necessary that some notice of that circumstance by appropriate means should be taken by this House at a later day.	.


William Mulock: I shall call the attention of the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) to the remarks of my hon. friend, and I have no doubt that he will give the information that is desired.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Sault Ste. Marie canal-construction, $100,000.
Henry Robert Emmerson: On Friday evening I explained the reasons why this vote w'as asked and gave all of the facts connected with the several contracts entered into in regard to the completion of the work. I need not further explain. I suppose.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Where do the Hickler Brothers reside?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I could not say.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Will the appropriation complete the work of deepening and widening?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I stated that $150,000 more would be required.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: And is all this work intended to be done at the lower end of the canal?
Mr. EMMIvKSON. No, some of it is at the upper end.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is the upper end not completed?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, there is still some work in connection with the upper end. I am not personally very familiar with the work there but if I mistake not there is an extension at the upper end to protect vessels in approaching the canal on account of the cross current, and furthermore I think there is some difficulty in connection with the foundations of the piers at the upper entrance. Of course it is schedule work ; the contractors are not bound to secure a foundation they are paid by the cubic yard. If they have to go away down, that will of course mean so much more return for them. There was some difficulty in connection with the foundation, and the department has found it necessary to use stone for filling, which is much cheaper than concrete, and a contract will be entered into for that. There is also some back lilling to be done. For this loose stones will be used, in consequence of which the cost will be very much reduced.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is there any more dredging to be done ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is all completed.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is it possible to obtain the names of these contractors who figure so conspicuously in these contracts ? I find that in 1900 there was a contract for 10,958 cubic yards at $3 per yard given to Bowman & Porter ; another in 1901 to Bowman & Porter ; and another again in 1902 to Bowman & Porter; in 1903 and in 1904, Hickler Bros, were the contractors. Would the hon. gentleman state further if there is any special clause in these government contracts in regard to the employment of alien labour?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: May I ask the nature of that clause ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That Canadian labour is to be employed. There is also the fair-wage clause with respect to the amount to be paid.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Does the hon. gentleman know what the fair-wage clause is ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I cannot speak from memory. That is always provided. It is the rate prevailing in the district where the work is being carried on. The schedule of Mr. EMMERSON.
wages is furnished by the Department of Labour before a contract is entered into, and is incorporated in the contract.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Then, do I understand the hon. gentleman correctly, that there is first a clause making it obligatory on the contractor to employ only Canadian labour, and secondly an obligation upon him to pay such wages as are provided for in the schedule which may from time to time be handed by the Department of Labour to the hon. gentleman's department ? Is there a schedule fixed to each contract ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, there is a schedule fixed to each contract.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I am not desirous dn any way of placing myself on record as obstructing appropriations of any moneys necessary for the completion and proper equipment of the Sault Ste. Marie canal and its approaches. From time to time during the last five years at least these appropriations have been before the House. In 1900, $40,000 was appropriated, and in 1901 $100,000 was appropriated, to deepen and widen the entrance. In 1901 it was stated that the total cost of deepening and widening would be $450,000. This statement was repeated in
1902.	Again, in connection with the supplementary estimates for the same year, the estimate for the completion was $420,000. In 1902 $50,000 was appropriated, besides $20,000 in the supplementary estimates. In
1903,	$94,000 was appropriated, in 1904, $170-, 000, and we are now asked to appropriate $100,000. These make a grand total of $599,000, and the hon. minister says that will not complete the work. Will the hon. gentleman explain what circumstances or difficulties have arisen to have so far increased the cost ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: In the first place, there has been from time to time quite a variation with respect to the cost of the work. It has all been done by tender. The cost of dredging has varied from 80 cents to $3 per cubic yard.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: What is $3 paid for ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: For rock dredging at the upper entrance.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Is $3 per yard paid for removing boulders ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, the contractors are obliged to take everything, whether solid rock, hard-pan, or whatever it may be. This same firm, Hickler Bros., had a contract for deepening the upper entrance or a portion of the upper entrance at the end of the Vidal <Shoal, and their price was 80 cents. We let another contract last fall for deepening another portion of the upper entrance, from the eastern end of the entrance to the eastern end of what is known as Vidal Shoal. The lowest tender for that was $1.74 per cubic yard. This was let to C. S.

Boone, of Toronto. We have some work at the south entrance pier, which is under contract to Mr. Birmingham, of Ottawa. We have expended on that up to the 30th of November, 1904, $37,500.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Whenever these items are submitted to the House, the question is raised as to the utility of this canal, and that question seems to resolve itself under two headings. First,' as to whether the fact that the canal is not being used as much as the American one, is due to the difficulty, in getting supplies or to the lack of dock accommodation on the Canadian side. I wish to draw to the attention of the hon. minister the present condition of affairs. It is true that when last this appropriation was asked for, it was stated that the government dock was then in course of construction. That dock has since been completed, but I might point out that it is some distance below the canal and does not seem to have remedied the condition of affairs. It seems that the Canadian Pacific Railway boats prefer, in coming down from the west or the north, to turn round and go to the American side rather than proceed along the shoally channel to where the new dock is situated. There is no doubt that between the eastern outlet of that canal and the present newly constructed government dock there is a channel difficult of navigation. It has repeatedly been represented to me that the captains of these Canadian Pacific Railway vessels will not follow that channel if they can avoid doing so. They invariably make a sharp detour to the south and go over to the American side. In 1902, when the appropriation was first asked for (see page 4002 of ' Hansard ') the then Minister of Railways and Canals used these words :
We desire to place our canal upon an equally satisfactory footing with that of our neighbours.
The footing of the canal proper is no doubt equally satisfactory to that of the American canal because when vessels go into the Canadian canal, they go into a better lock than the American, a lock which will serve vessels very [DOT]much quicker, which is in many respects a superior lock and under excellent management. But the difficulties are the difficulties of approach and the difficulties of docking. The difficulties of approach seem to have been grappled with to some extent by the large amount of dredging and deepening done, but I would point out that these difficulties have not been entirely removed although the expenditure has far exceeded the amount estimated. The difficulty of docking too is one that still calls for some consideration. The government dock is nearly a mile south of the entrance on the southern outlet of the canal, and there is in addition to the distance between the outlet and this government dock an unsatisfactory channel. I earnestly trust that the hon. minister will 45	k-16
investigate these matters as they stand. Speaking purely for the local constituency and having natural interest in the condition of affairs as they exist there by contrast with the condition of affairs existing at the American Soo, I would much prefer that the government should undertake to place our canal on an equally satisfactory footing with that of our neighbours from every point of view ; and the hon. minister will meet with no dissent from me if he will provide an amount sufficient to complete that work and place it on a satisfactory footing. Whilst speaking on this matter, I consider that the conditions which have prevailed with regard to these contracts on the canal call for some comment at my hands, and I regret that the Postmaster General, who is also the Minister of Labour, is not in his place.


Mr. PRINGLE.: Is this the contract referred to in answer to a question which I put on February 6. I asked :
1.	In what month in 1903 was the contract for dredging Sault1 Ste. Marie canal given ?
2.	If given in the fall, why was it given at a season when Canadian contractors were unable to take the work ?
3.	Did United States contractors get the work?
4.	What was the price ?
5.	Was there such a rush to have the work done that Canadian contractors were excluded from doing the work ?
The answer to the question was as follows :
1.	In November.
2.	It was given in the autumn because parliamentary appropriations were not available until then, parliament having prorogued on October 24. 1903.
3.	Yes.
4.	Eighty cents per cubic yard.
5.	It was necessary to let the work as early after the House prorogued to avail of the appropriation.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That contract was completed. This contract was entered into last autumn.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: But, under this head, I dare say, I can refer to this for a moment. In answer to question 3, the minister states that the contractors who got the work were United States contractors. I suppose the reason they got the work was that tenders were called for late in the fall, when it was impossible for Canadian contractors to get their plant in place for the work. Consequently, the government are paying for the work double what they are paying on the Welland canal for a similar class of work. On the Welland canal they are paying 384 cents, while on the Sault Ste. Marie canal they are paying 80 cents a yard, as I understand it, for a similar class of excavation.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is no comparison.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: This is earth, not rock, excavation.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It includes boulders and hardpan. The work the Hickler Bros, are doing at 80 cents we are obliged to pay $1.74 for, and the offers made have been as high as $3.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I am advised by a very competent contractor that at the time the tenders were called for it was absolutely impossible for any Canadian contractor to put in a tender, because it was at a season of the year when it would have been impossible for them to get their plant there, and consequently Americans got the contract at higher prices. Were there any Canadian contractors tendering for this work ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I was not then in the department, and am not prepared to answer that question off-hand. The appropriation having been passed late, the asking for tenders was late. The Canadian contractors tendered in 1904, and it seems to me they had equal opportunities to do so in 1903. My hon. friend (Mr. Pringle) is certainly misinformed as to the character of the work. It is absolutely different from the work on the Welland canal. I myself naturally asked the question why the tenders in connection with the Sault Ste. Marie canal were so much higher than those on the Welland canal, and so I was informed of the difference in the work. The successful tenderer last fall was Mr. Boone, whose figure was $1.74. Messrs. Magann & Finn, who are doing the work at 38i cents on the Welland canal, tendered at $2, and Messrs. Battle & Manley, tendered at $2.25. It is practically the same class of work. It was just at the entrance at the upper or northern end of the canal.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I am advised that the contract was let late in November, when very little if any work could be done, because the canal is usually frozen about the first week in December. The work would have to be held over until the spring, and there was no advantage in letting the contract so late in the fall, when only a few days' work could be done. If a reasonable time had been given our Canadian contractors would have had an opportpnity to bid for the work.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Though the work was given out late in the fall, the Canadian contractors were in quite as good a position to tender as those on the other side of the line. The point was to get the work under contract and have it ready to proceed with in the spring. It has been a crying necessity. Complaints were made that there was only 18 feet of water there, and it was said the Canadian Pacific Railway boats could not come down because of the shallow entrance to the canal. Another objection was the cross-current which was said to make the shallow water much more dangerous. The Mr. EMMERSON.
money, no doubt, should have ben voted earlier in the session, but we all recognize the conditions which prevailed here in 1903. The moment the vote was available tenders were asked for. The prices were certainly very low. And if, as the hon. gentleman says, no work was done that fall, surely the other contractors might have been quite as wide awake to the point as were Hickler Bros., the successful tenderers. Of course, we hear these rumours, but I think that when the facts are inquired into no cause for complaint can be found. When it came down to last fall the tenders were sky-high. They did not offer to take the work at any such figure as 38 J cents a yard. And, by the way, somebody complained the other night that 38* cents was too nigh.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I may not correctly understand this matter, but, as I am advised, tenders were called for on this work, work to proceed in the fall of 1903.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Nobody is expected to do the impossible.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Tenders were not called for until such time as it would have been impossible for Canadian contractors to get their plant on the Sault Ste. Marie canal. As to the minister's excuse that there was no appropriation, we all know that in 1903 a special vote was passed early in the session, so that these public works could be carried on, and thus there was no reason why tenders should not have been called for early in that session instead of waiting until the fall. Now, so far as the cost of the work is concerned, I am not prepared to say.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that was on the main estimates, there was a certain percentage.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: You could have done the same thing again. What was to prevent you from bringing down an interim estimate to carry on this work, instead of leaving it to the fall so as to throw this contract into the hands of these American contractors ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Was the work kept going?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That particular work was kept going, because I do not think it was under contract. As for the other work, I do not think any dredging was being done at that period.	.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: As the Minister of Labour is now in his place I desire to draw his attention to the condition of affairs which has existed at that place, on both government contracts and other works of a large nature, with regard to the employment of aliens. The matter has been brought from time to time, with a great deal of pertinacity, to the attention of the Department of Labour, and absolutely no relief whatsoever has been afforded. Now, here you

have a dredge contract involving a large amount of money, with foreign contracts, a foreign dredge, manned by foreign engineers, supplied from a foreign port, and employing foreign workmen.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Are you sure ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I am speaking from very excellent information, that notwithstanding the clause that may have been imported into the contract, as it was imported into a contract by the Public Works Department, these conditions do and did exist at the time, and complaint was made with regard to it. There were importations of labour from the other side of the river for the purpose of dredging and deepening this canal-that can be established. There were importations of cheap foreign labour for the construction of the government dock, and that can be established. There was a time last year when the post office work there was under construction, that the stonemasons employed at the work were almost entirely, as 1 am informed, engaged from the United States across the river. So that on the three public works that were going on under a contract with this government at the town of Sault Ste. Marie, although that contract provided as the minister states, that the contractor should employ none but Canadian labour, that clause was honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Then what was the effect upon the town ? We find that during this time, according to this estimable publication from the bureau of labour, there is a report from Sault Ste. Marie on the labour conditions there-X am referring to the number for July, 1904, which, I may state, was the month following the date on which urgent petitions were sent to the Minister of Labour from the labouring men and other persons asking for relief. In the month of July, 1904, this article or minute appeared in the ' Labour Gazette : '
Labour conditions in Sault Ste. Marie are at! present duller than at any previous period in the last seven years. There is a large number of men employed, yet there are many more here than the amount of work calls for.
Yet what work there was there was being filled up by aliens imported under a government contract by government contractors upon a government work.
The receiver, however, has as yet only three) plants in operation, viz., the mechanical pulp mill, employing 140 men ; the veneer mill, employing 100 men, and the sawmill, employing 100 men. The contractor who is extending the government dock has 25 men employed, at a rate from $1.50 to $2 per day. The contractors on the post office building employ 45 men at wages ranging from $1.75 to $4.50, and on the extension of the pier, on the eastern approach to the ship canal, 45 men were employed at daily wages ranging from $1.50 to $4.50.
That is the report in the month of July, and in the month of August not a single word was said with regard to the urgent
45*
petitions that were presented to the Department of Labour in this issue of July. So it would appear that the organ of that department desired to say smooth things instead of true things. Then in the month for August, I extract from the report from Sault Ste. Marie, page 165 :
Sixty men are employed on the extension of the piers of the government canal at from $1.50 to $2.50 per day. The men employed on the! post office building are as follows 6 stonemasons at 45 cents per hour ; 7 carpenters at 25 cents per hour ; 9 stone-cutters at 50 cents per hour ; 7 quarrymen at from $2.52 to $2.75 per day, and 20 labourers at from 17J to 20 cents per hour.
Then we are told that labour conditions in August had somewhat improved. The petitions that were sent down to the Department of Labour I would ask the minister, when it is convenient,' to lay on the table of the House. They set forth the grievances that then existed, namely, that Canadian workingmen were being ousted and being pushed on one side by importations of alien labour under a government contract. The result was that men in Canada, some of them owning property and paying taxes at the Canadian Soo, went over and endeavoured to obtain work in American factories on the Michigan side, with the result that the American officials deported them and sent them back with their chests of tools by the same ferry by which they came. These matters were, as X understand, represented by these petitions to the department and a request was made that an inspector be appointed under the Dominion Alien Labour law to retaliate against that kind of treatment, so that these gentlemen who were employed on government work and eating up the bread of Canadian citizens might be dealt with at least on the same basis as our Canadians were dealt with by American officials. There was a meeting held at the Soo at which I was present, and the gentleman who was the government candidate at the last election, was also present. This ques-tiop was put forcibly before us by a number of workingmen who were immediately affected by it, who represented the pros and the cons. The whole difficulty was discussed, and the government candidate at the last election stated-I think I am quoting his words fairly, I am sure I am desirous of doing so-stated that in his judgment the present law was unworkable, and he would see that pressure was brought to bear upon the government so that the conditions which were then presented to the meeting might be remedied.
Two instances were cited of the character I have mentioned of men living in Canada being deported by the American authorities with a number of cases where men were imported from the American Soo opposite, and were engaged upon the post office and other public works to which I have referred. These matters were represented to the D'e-

partment of Labour. A request was made for an inspector. No inspector for the enforcement of the labour law of Canada, as far as I know-if I am wrong the hon. minister will correct me-was appointed or is now on duty. The conditions there call for action, they call for the enforcement of some law even though it be enforcement by retaliation. Men there who own property and pay taxes-I am quoting from instances that came to my personal knowledge-are deprived of work. A man occupying the position of a stationary engineer, for instance, is pushed to one side and remains at home idle while a gentleman from the other side of the river who lives over there comes over and takes his work, brings his dinner pail over, eats his dinner, does his work and goes back to the southern side of the line at six o'clock and when wage day comes he carries his pay over there, while the man who fulfils the duties and bears the burdens of Canadian citizenship by the payment of taxation and in other ways is looking for work. This is an example of the way in which the Alien Labour Law is administered at the present time. I would respectfully ask the hon. minister whether he has dealt with the petitions which were presented and whether he intends in pursuance of the prayer of these petitions which were sent down last June to appoint an inspector and to carry into effect, as far as they can be made effective, the provisions of the Alien Labour Law so as to prevent this condition of things in the future. I would also ask the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals if in regard to the same appropriations he would see to it that the clause in the contract for the expenditure of this money on this dredging and deepening work providing for the employment of Canadian labour is not a matter of mere form more honoured in the breach than in the observance.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I would say in reply to my hon. friend that if he is not more accurate in respect to the Department of Railways and Canals, I fear that he has not given us very correct information as respects the conditions at the Soo. I happen to know from an inquiry that was made by the Department of Railways and Canals that Hick-ler Bros, who had the contract and who were said to be American citizens and employed in their work aliens-


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Yes, I understand so.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Inquiry was made at the time and there was only one man on each dredge who was an American citizen. That was the engineer and captain, and further inquiry was made and it was found that it was impossible to get on the Canadian side any one who would undertake that work.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: May I ask the hon. minister at what time he made these inquiries ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: 


Henry Robert Emmerson: These inquiries were made in the spring of 1904. The contract was let in November, I think, 1903. I came into my department in January, 1904. My attention was called to the matter, and I asked the chief engineer to make inquiry and the result of that inquiry was as I have stated.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: Mr. Chairman


Henry Robert Emmerson: I hope my hon. friend is not subject to any little fits of that kind ; jumping up and interrupting me. I am stating the facts as they are and if he will bear with me I will get them all placed before him. The results of the inquiry were that it was impossible to get any one to act in that capacity on these dredges and in view of these circumstances permission was given to the contractors to employ these men in the operation of the dredges. They did the work excellently well. All other employees in connection with the work were Canadian citizens, as they informed me.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: At the risk of speaking too much, which, in the eyes of the hon. minister, appears to be a heinous offence, I want to say that if he will read my remarks as taken down by ' Hansard ' he will see that the meeting I referred to was held in June of this year at which certain instances were brought to the attention of the meeting. He is groping away back in January of last year when everything was frozen up and I do not think anything was working. The hon. gentleman has referred in almost uncalled for manner to some desire on my part, possibly impulsively exhibited, of making myself right with him in regard to the facts. I might discourse upon that enigmatical stare and inscrutable smile with which the hon. gentleman meets certain questions which are asked in regard to the expenditures of his department, but I refrain out of courtesy to the hon. gentleman. % But, although I am a new member I trust'I am not a fresh one, and I want to draw the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that I have never violated my rights here, that I have kept strictly within the lines of courtesy and no one can complain of me on that score. I do not think when I am addressing myself to public questions that I should be subject to remarks and insinuations of that character from the hon. gentleman.


William Mulock: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyce) stated that some petitions and communications had last year been addressed to the Department of Labour complaining of some infractions of the Alien Labour law at the Soo. If the hon. gentleman had informed me in advance, I should have examined the papers and put myself in a position to discuss what has occurred, or is supposed to have occurred, but as the hon. gentleman has not done so-

I am sure it was from inadvertence-I am not in a position to-night to enter into any controversy as to what might or might not have occurred. The hon. gentleman says there were infractions of the Alien Labour law and he asks whether an inspector has been sent up there, or will be, and why one is not sent. Let me remind him that the Alien Labour Act is not administered in that way at all. At one time it was for the government to administer the Alien Act, but, at the instance of I think, speaking from memory, the Congress of Labour,-although I would not say positively as to which organization it was,-but on the application of labour organizations, the law was changed and the administration taken from the Department of Justice. It was left to any private citizen to enforce the law. If the hon. gentleman had turned up the Act at that time and had found there were infractions of the law all he had to do was to have a complaint made to a judicial or semi-judicial officer at the Sault, or to have had proceedings instituted and that would have brought about the proper remedy. That has been done with great success in many parts of Canada.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: But these proceedings would have to be undertaken at the expense of the prosecutor, some poor labouring man who has not a dollar.


William Mulock: The law is as we were asked to make it by the labour organizations, the persons supposed to be particularly interested in it. The law provides that the government give one-half the penalty recovered to the complainant; in every instance that has been done, and it has not been complained to us that there are not people there prepared to undertake a prosecution. If my hon. friend in his zeal to help the workmen, had given them the beueht of his legal knowledge-for I presume he knows the law-he would have applied the remedy and we would not have had the grievance dragged out at such length in this House.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I am grateful for the explanation. but I wish to point out this difficulty. The average workman does not see the profit to himself or the advisability or the expediency of engaging personally in litigation, engaging lawyers to pursue a claim for penalties and giving security for costs, with the gracious promise that he may get one-half the reward. We know that the result of penal actions is exceedingly hazardous, much more so than civil actions, for the construction of the statutes is so strict that in a very small percentage of cases that are instituted to recover penalties is the plaintiff successful. Then what is the chance of his recovering against aliens or against a class of men who stand between the contractor and the employer of alien labour ? There are many difficulties,
and. knowing as I do that the minister is familiar with the provisions of the Act, it is with exceeding diffidence that I bring these matters to his notice and respectfully urge that they receive the attention they should receive.


William Mulock: These are observations that would be properly addressed to the House in framing amendments to the law, but they have no application, no force, as against the existing law. It is not necessary to repeat that the enforcement of the penalties does not rest with the government and the government has no legal right to institute proceedings such as the hon. gentleman refers to. We cannot by force of arms proceed to grab men and throw them out of the country. There is a legal way of doing these things. My hon. friend holds out the great bug-bear of security for costs. On referring to the Act he will not find anything in it with reference to security for costs there is nothing in the Act on the subject.


Mr. J. D. REID.: I would like to ask the hon. minister, as I was not here the other evening, whether he has done anything towards changing the method of swinging the bridge at the Cardinal locks, and also if it is his intention to ask for public tenders for the erection of the new wharf to be built at Cardiual ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The intention is to fix the swing. If I remember rightly there was an item in that estimate for $11,000 or $12,000 for a wharf at Cardinal. Of course tenders will be asked for.


John Dowsley Reid: I saw by the discussion that took place that there was $11,000 in the estimates for a wharf at Cardinal, but I would like to know if he will give the public an opportunity of competing for this contract ? That is, will he advertise it in the local papers for that section 7


Henry Robert Emmerson: All these works are tendered for by public advertisement.


John Dowsley Reid: Sometimes they are not.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Not in the Department of Railways and Canals ; the tenders for public works are always by newspaper advertisement.


Mr.  J. D.@: jtvEID. As I understand, this is not part of the original Davis contract for enlarging that canal.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Oh, no, this is entirely separate ; it is not part of their contract.


John Dowsley Reid: You say you are going to arrange to have the bridge swung differently from the present system 7 It is now done by hand and with a great deal of inconvenience.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I would ask the minister now what were the conditions which led to

the tremendous increase in the expenditure for the deepening and widening of the canal from $120,000 as originally estimated and as it was declared would cover the cost, up to the present $599,000 with the statement from the minister that that will not complete the work ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Does my hon. friend mean simply the dredging ?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: The deepening and widening of the entrance of the canal. He states that the amount was estimated $120,000 in 1902. Again, when the supplementary estimates came on, the Minister of Railways and Canals at that time said-I am quoting from ' Hansard,' at page 4002 :
The estimated cost for both the upper and lower entrance is in the neighbourhood of $450,000. The lower entrance will cost in the neighbourhood of $140,000 to $150,000, and the upper entrance in the neighbourhood of $300,000. We have not commenced the upper entrance yet.
Again, on an item in the supplementary estimates for $211,090 towards deepening and widening the entrance, at page 4298, the hon. minister was asked : What will it require to complete the whole entrance to a 21-foot depth of navigation ? ' The Minister of Railways answered:	' The estimated
cost is $429,000.' The Hon. Mr. Haggart asked : ' Will the whole of it he iinished tliis season,' and he was answered ' No.'


Henry Robert Emmerson: The reason the estimate has been exceeded is that the channel has very much widened at both the upper and the lower entrance, further than was intended. That was found to be necessary. The cost ef dredging also has been exceeded. My hon. friend knows that wages have very materially increased since 1902.


John Dowsley Reid: What is the policy of the hon. minister in regard to these dredging contracts ? Is he going to give them to Americans in case they apply for them, or will he see that they are kept entirely for Oanf-dians ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Our contracts contain clauses with respect to Canadian labour and wages. It becomes a serious matter sometimes, if an American tender is away down, perhaps half of what the lowest Canadian tender is. It would be problematical wliat should be done. My own inclination under these circumstances would be to give the lowest Canadian tender the benefit. But it is a question of dollars and cents.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman will remember that, when the Grand Trunk Pacific Bill was going through, he did not hesitate to see that a clause was put in the Bill that contracts must be let entirely to Canadians, although that measure involved a very large expenditure. Yet in regard to these contracts, when there is no question about Canadians having the plant, he seems to have changed his mind entirely, because Mr. BOYCE.
he is now willing to give these contracts to Americans. He stated that he would give the contract to the lowest tenderer.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon. I said my inclination would be to give it to a Canadian, even though the lowest tender was very much below his. I am speaking of my own judgment in this matter. Each case mast be governed by the circumstance's which surround it. That question is not involved in this vote, because all these are Canadian contractors.


Samuel Hughes: Has the minister any data concerning the American channel through Hay lake, below the Sault Ste. Marie locks, lowering the water at the foot of the Canadian canal ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That matter was discussed last yeaipatfd nothing has occurred respecting it sinffe. That question, I think, is now involved in the commission.
Trent canal-construction, $300,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The work on the original contract is about completed, but the contractors have been required to do some extra work, some portion of it being the construction of a road across the fourth concession of the township of Eldon, and this road has two bridges on It.


Samuel Hughes: That is in tlie township of Carden, I think.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am not as familiar with the district as the hon. gentleman. There was a special agreement entered into with respect to the extra work, the prices being 25 cents per yard for earth and $4.25 per yard for concrete. The contractors are Larkin & Sangster.


Samuel Hughes: This $300,000 completes the work between Balsam lake and Heeley's falls ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Samuel Hughes: This lias nothing to do with the locks at Kirlcfield ?
Mr. EMMERSON, No.


Samuel Hughes: Will the minister tell us his policy with regard to those locks?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The sub-structure has been completed, or nearly so, with a view to the construction at that point of a lift-lock, which has been contracted for.


Mr. LENNOX.: What kind of piers are they ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Steel piers.


Samuel Hughes: I would ask the hon. minister to let that item stand until the hon. member for Simeoe (Mr. Bennett) and tlie hon. member for Durham (Mr. Ward) are here.
Item allowed to stand.

Lachine canal-rebuilding wharf below dock,


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is for concrete *work running around the pier between the entrance and the head of the lock. The items is $10,000 to complete.
Lachine canal-rebuilding wall basin No. 2, $37,500.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Length of wall 1,500 l'eet, height 17 feet, average thickness 4i feet.
Soulanees canal-general repairs including gasoline boat, $15,000.


Samuel Hughes: What is that boat for ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is estimated to cost $2,000. It is for hauling scows along the line for repairs.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Sir William Muloclc, House adjourned at 11.15 p.m.

Tuesday, February 21, 1905.