1905-02-07

MEMBER INTRODUCED.

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R. L. Borden, Esq., member for the electoral district of Carleton, Ontario, introduced by the Hon. Geo. E. Foster and Mr. F. D. Monk.

Rt.   H@: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move :
That the name of Mr. R. L. Bordon, member for Carleton, Ontario, be added to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, and the Standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.
I may inform my hon. friend (Mr. Borden), whom I welcome back to this House, that in anticipation of his early presence in the House we reserved for him places upon the Committees on Privileges and Elections and Banking and Commerce. These are the only two committees on which he served last year, and I hope they will he satisfactory to him again.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Carleton).: They will be entirely satisfactory to me, Mr. Speaker, and I am very much obliged to my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) for his welcome. I arrived a little later than I

intended, but I believe I am entitled to the sympathy of my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), because I think he had once an experience of the same kind.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Oh, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Wilfrid Laurier: I beg to move:
That the name of Mr. Fisher be added to the Committee on Private Bills. .
I make this motion after consultation with my hon. friends on the other side.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 39) respecting the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company. -Mr. Calvert.
Bill (No. 40) respecting the Niagara-Wel-land Power Company.-Mr. Guthrie.
Bill (No. 41) respecting the Regina and Hudson's Bay Railway Company-Mr. Scott.
Bill (No. 42) respecting the Vancouver, Westminster and Yukon Railway Company. -Mr. Macpherson.
Bill (No. 43) respecting the Lake Champlain and St. Lawrence Ship Canal Company.-Mr. Gervais.

[Stage Direction]
Annual Report of the Geographical Board of Canada to June 30, 1904.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

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Bill (No. 5) respecting the Census and Statistics-Mr. Fisher-read the second time, and House went into Committee thereon.
Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps before we proceed to the consideration of this by sections, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) would give us what is usually given on the motion for the second reading-some explanation of the purport and scope of the Bill, and what evils it is intended to remedy.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: At the request of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden)-and I would also like to add a word of welcome to the House-I shall be very glad to give an outline of the intention of this Bill. It is a Bill practically to consolidate three actual laws-the Census law, the law of General Statistics and the law of Criminal Statistics. These three laws deal with the same subject. They, however, contain different provisions, and to a certain extent overlap each other ; in some instances, to a slight extent, they conflict with each other in some details.
Mr. FOSTER, These two Acts form all the existing legislation ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I know of no other, except one Act in connection with the formation of the province of Manitoba, the Act respecting the subsidies of the province of Manitoba, which requires that a census should be taken of the province of Manitoba each five years, and which is in no way conflicted with by the provisions of the Bill which I now propose to present to parliament. Apart from this, I know of no legislation except the three Acts I have quoted-the Census Act, the General Statistics Act and the Criminal Statistics Act. The Bill which I propose combines and consolidates these three Acts. It also provides machinery for a permanent census office. This is the chief novelty in the Bill. I ask for that on the ground of public utility and the more efficient administration of the department, and for the purpose of securing a better census in the future.


Mr. FOSTER.: How about the expense ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I believe it will be more economical too. My reasons for that are these. One of the greatest difficulties always found in the taking of the census is the necessity of organizing a staff, almost on the spur of the moment, of inexperienced people who have never had much of this kind of work before. The difficulties consequent on this hasty manner of operation would be avoided if there were a permanent census office. But, in addition to that, what I consider to be quite as important is the necessity, in the present stage of our development. of obtaining accurate statistics during tfle ten years that intervene between the taking of the censuses. Hitherto we have had no accurate statistics whatever for the whole Dominion except those taken in the census years. The result is that when investigations are made by students or public men, or others, requiring general information with regard to the Dominion, they have either to go back to the census year or get their information from whatever sources they can. At present, these sources are in a certain way official. The trade and navigation returns give information about trade matters, and the other departments do give certain other information ; but there is no compilation of the figures given in the various departmental reports in a form available to the public at large except in the Canadian Year Book. This work is a compilation made from the various departmental reports for the year, but it only deals with what appears in those reports. I think it is in the interest of our country that we should have a more frequent taking of information in regard to our industrial and agricultural interests ; and for that purpose I think it is necessary to have a permanent office which, while it takes a census of the population, and obtains detailed information on all the different subjects which have been contained in our census once in ten years, should also have the duty

of taking information at first hand on a portion of those subjects every year. I do not propose that a whole census should be taken every year ; that would be quite out of the question. I do not propose that on any one subject statistics should be taken every year ; but I do think that between the two censuses, there should be a periodic taking of information along various lines, and including each year a portion of the census information. For instance, certain agricultural statistics might be taken every second year, and certain other agricultural statistics in the alternate years. Certain industrial statistics might also be taken in the same way. Certain mortuary or hygienic statistics might be taken at intervals, whether every second year, every third year, or otherwise, according to the, decision of the department and the facilities of the work. In this way a comparatively small staff would be able to work one year on one set of statistics and in another year on another set of statistics, and would secure for us, between the decennial censuses, in the aggregate, a large mass of important information. I think this is one of the most important objects, if not the most important, in having a permanent office, and in providing by this Act for the appointment of a permanent staff, and for giving them the authority to do in other years what they now have authority to do in the census year, each time the authority is given them designating just what information they shall collect. I may say that a work similar to this is being carried on and has been carried on for some little time in the United States. The United States census office secures a very large amount of information which our census office never has been in the habit of securing. The work in regard to the census is continued from year to year practically until the work for the next census begins. Compilations and tables are prepared from the census work of 1891. the work on which continues practically until the census of 1901 is commenced.


Mr. HAGGART.: Is it simply a compilation on which these officers are at work in the United States, or do they actually get the information from the people ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They do get what I may call interim information. They do not get it with the same exactitude, or by the personal investigation of enumerators as is done in the taking of the census.


John Graham Haggart: How do they get it, then?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They get it largelv by correspondence, largely by issuing form's for the people to fill up and return through the post office.


George Eulas Foster: The minister says that certain kinds of agricultural information will be taken in one year and certain other kinds in the alternate years, and that this information can be made useful for the Mr. FISHER.
decennial census. That I do not understand.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is not my idea. It is not to be made use of for the decennial census at all, but for the use of the people between the censuses.


George Eulas Foster: As to that year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, but we would not make use of that information at all for the decennial census. The information taken in the interval between each decennial census will not interfere in any way with the complete taking of the decennial census. The establishment of a permanent census office will not in any way decrease the necessity or the work of the decennial census except that it will decrease the expenditure in this respect, that the office being in permanent existence, we will be able to prepare for the taking of the information during the census year, and thus do the work more easily and effectively. With regard to the question put me by my hon. friend from Lanark (Mr. Ilaggart), the information taken between the census years would not be taken by enumeration, except in some instances. For instance, the census of Manitoba has to be taken once in five years. There was an Act requiring that on a certain day the census should be taken of the population in the Northwest Territories at the end of the five year period. That Act was for one definitely named year. That is only done once ; and in view of the development of our new Territories in the west and of the fact that in Manitoba the census has to be taken every five years, it would be perhaps a good thing for Canada to take the census in the new provinces or in the Territories once in five years. That would have to be done by actual enumeration, but with regard to industrial information and even to a great deal of agricultural information, my idea is that that work should be done from the office here and done through the mails to a very large extent. Perhaps a little might have to be done otherwise, but I think nearly the whole of it could be done through the post office. Something of this kind might be done. A blank form might be sent to the various industrial establishments asking them to fill in the changes in their business since the census year. Those would be compiled and the results then placed at the eommaud of the people.


Mr.   I@: BOkHEX. Does the hon. gentleman propose to send out at certain intervals a return to be filled in by business men throughout the country ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Mr.  R. L.@: jbORDEN. Is there to be any mode of compelling these people to give the information ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I propose to give the same powers to the office as are given under the

Census Act. Anybody who receives such a form would have to fill it in subject to the same penalties as at present for non-compliance.


Robert Laird Borden: It would be useless without that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 
Mr MONK.: Has the hon. minister made any calculation of the expense to be incurred in connection with this law ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Mr. MONK.: I wished also to suggest that, as the carrying out of this law would probably involve a considerable expense, the minister should have proceeded by resolution.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As I understand it, the rules of the House do not require the introduction of this measure by resolution. The expenditure will be provided for by an item in the estimates.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I cannot but believe that the minister is mistaken and that the very opposite is the case.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not prepared to set myself up as a judge of that point. But 1
consulted the Department of Justice, and understood that it was not necessary in this case to proceed by resolution.


John Graham Haggart: Does the hon. minister make provision for salaries in the Bill ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no provision for expenditure in the Bill. The Bill authorizes the department to incur certain expenses, but it does not indicate the amount. And, as I understand, it is only in that case that the question of proceeding by resolution arises.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I thought there was a clause in the Bill relating to the payment of money.
I find that subsection 2 of section 42 provides :
Such remuneration or allowances, and all expenses incurred in carrying this Act into effect, shall be paid out of such moneys as are provided by parliament for that purpose.
But, without any desire to retard the progress of this measure, the point I wish to make is that the minister has stated that officers would be employed to carry out the provisions of this Act. Of course, these officers will have to be paid. I think, therefore, it is only fair to raise the point of order, which I do. I think we had better adhere to tlie old rule and have the Bill founded upon resolutions previously adopted by the House. An hon. friend draws my attention to tlie fact that section 4 of the Bill provides that one or more enumerators are to be appointed for every census sub-district. This must involve expense. I think we cannot surround these enactments providing lor the appointment of officials and the incurring of expense with too many precautions. The procedure I have suggested is according to the old traditions of the House.
Mr. FISHER, I quite agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) that we cannot surround the expenditure of public money with too many safeguards. Had I supposed for a moment that this Bill required it 1 would have proceeded by resolution. I do not profess to be an authority on questions of procedure, but I would point out that the clauses to which my hon. friend refers are already in existence in the laws which are being consolidated by this Bill. I grant that under this Bill, there would be authority given for paying more than was paid under the old Acts. At the same time, the existing law does provide for the expenditure of money for the purpose of gathering statistics and carrying on a good deal of the work contemplated under this Bill. .Therefore, if 1 may put it in that way, I think it is a mere question of degree and not a question of new expenditure. And I would point out that the expenditure under this Bill, of course, must he authorized by vote in the estimates when we reach that stage. I think my hon. friend's position is not tenable, but I must submit to the decision of the committee on that point.


Mr. WHITE.: As I understand it the hon. minister proposes by this Bill, to repeal the Acts to which he has just referred. Of course, I do not know how it is proposed to pay these officers, but if it is proposed to make their salaries a charge on the public revenue, it seems to me clear that this measure ought to be proceeded with by resolution.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would appeal to the experience of my hon. friend from North Renfrew (Hon. Peter White), who has had a great deal of experience in these matters, that the rule is that when a Bill is proposed, the chief object of which is the expenditure of public money it must be introduced by resolution. But when a Bill is promoted the chief object of which is not the expenditure of public money, but in which the expenditure is an incident, it may be introduced directly, but the clauses which provide for the expenditure of public money must be introduced by resolution.


Peter White: Quite so.


Wilfrid Laurier: My attention lias been very forcibly drawn to this distinction in connection with the Bill which the government will have to introduce for the admission of certain provinces into the confederation. When Manitoba was admitted as a province in 1870, the measure was introduced by Sir John Macdonald in the form of a Bill. Of course, there are certain clauses of the Act which provide for heavy charges upon the public treasury-the subsidy to the province for instance. Concurrently with the introduction of the Bill or subsequently to it, resolutions will be introduced to provide for the financial part of the measure.


Peter White: When a Bill is introduced any Clauses of which refer to a charge upon the public treasury, the practice is that these clauses shall be printed in italics or inclosed in brackets so that members of the House may be appraised of their nature, and these clauses should not be discussed until after the resolutions have been introduced providing for these expenditures.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear. Let me put this question to my hon. friend : Does not lie think that the committee could deal with the Bill, and, when we come to any clause involving the expenditure of public money, it could bp passed over and left for future discussion ?


Peter White: I would not like to give an opinion upon that subject ; but I think that the House should be apprised, by the sections being printed in italics or inclosed in brackets that resolutions must be introduceu before those sections can be proceeded with


Robert Laird Borden: I think that the course suggested by my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) and supported by my hon. friend from North Renfrew (Mr. Mr. FISHER.
White) is the one that has always been followed. I remember a case arising three or four years ago though I cannot cite the name of the Bill at this moment. The Bill was introduced, but the discussion of the money clauses was postponed until resolutions had been passed in committee p-o-viding for the charge upon the public revenue.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I think that, as the point raised is a most important one, I would beg leave to reserve my decision until to-morrow.


George Eulas Foster: In the meantime what is to be done?


Charles Marcil: I suggest that a motion be made, and the Bill be reported to the House.


Robert Laird Borden: The minister might go on with the rest of the explanations.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If the point is pressed, it might be advisable simply to reserve the sections.


Robert Laird Borden: There is no objection to continuing the explanations.
Mr. OiSLER. Could the minister state in general terms what is likely to be the annual cost of this project ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That would depend largely on tiie amount of information obtained from year to year. I think myself that would grow. I am satisfied that as the public get the information they' will ask for more and more of it, and I have no doubt that within a few years the cost will be considerably greater than what I now contemplate-I want to give fair warning of that. But my own intention is to commence on a comparatively small scale, as it is found desirable, taking at first those subjects concerning which information is most likely to be asked for by the public. I would not like at the moment to venture a figure of tiie probable cost. This current year, including what is paid out of civil government and two or three votes for general statistics and criminal statistics, the cost will amount to a little under $20,000 in the year. That is what is appropriated by parliament at. the present time, and which would be included for the work we propose to carry on under the new law. But if general returns are made it would involve a considerable increase. I should think that, roughly speaking, next year I would have to ask nearly double, that is to say, it would add something like $15,000 a year to the present expenditure. The expenditure this year is a little over $18,500. I think we would have to provide for an expenditure the next fiscal year of fully $35,000. It might be a little over that, but I think I am safe in saying that $40,000 would cover the expenditure for a number of years to come.


George Eulas Foster: Does tlie minister intend taking up any of the work in the statistical line which is now being carried out chiefly by the Department of Trade and Commerce. They are issuing statistical statements, and have a staff who are engaged upon that work. I do not know but that the Customs Department is doing something in the same line. Does he propose to amalgamate those with the statistical branch which he is creating?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no intention of taking away from the other departments the work th'ey are doing. If this work develops in the way I hope, I think all statistical work connected with the government service, so far as it deals with compilation, had better be done in one office. So far as the collection of information is concerned, some departments may have facilities for collecting certain classes of information which, if I were to undertake to do it in my department, would require the creation of new machinery, which would to a certain extent duplicate existing machinery.
I would expect that the officers of the permanent census office would as far as possible get information from other branches of tlie service, making use of the information gathered by those other branches. But there is a good deal of census information which to-day is not procured by any department, and we would devote ourselves largely to obtaining that information.


Mr. OSLER.: Clause 4 says there shall be appointed under the authority of the minster one or more enumerators. Now what would be the character of those men? Would they be permanent government officials?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. These enumerators would be appointed when a census was to be taken. As I explained a moment ago, most of the information taken between the regular censuses would not be obtained by correspondence. I also pointed out that such information as the taking of a census of the population in Manitoba, or in any other province where the law requires it, would have to be taken by enumerators. But the collecting of statistics in regard to production, in regard to industries, and that kind of thing, would not require to be done by enumerators-unless it was thought absolutely essential to get occasionally more definite information upon particular subjects. Then we would have authority, if it was thought wise and if we got the money to do it with, to appoint enumerators besides those of the census year. But that would be entirely dependent upon a vote of the House, because the money I am speaking of would not nearly meet the cost of appointing enumerators around the country to get information. My hon. friend will see that that clause deals with the appointment of enumerators for every census. The clause goes on to say :
The minister may also employ from time to time such agents or persons as are necessary to collect for the office of statistics and information relating to such industries and affairs of the country as he deems useful and in the public interest, and the duties of such agents or persons shall he such as the minister determines.
That is the authority under which the information would be collected when it is necessary to collect it by agents. But in a general way, my idea is that that information should not be collected by agents, but should be collected by filling up forms through the post office.


Mr. BLAIN.: May I ask the minister if he has considered that under the assessment law in the different provinces, the local governments collect ail this information every year ? This could be obtained from the local governments without the expenditure of this large amount of money. For instance, in the province of Ontario every year assessors are appointed who take the number of children in a house, the number of horses, cattle and so on.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If my hon. friend will turn to clause 16 of the Bill he will see that:
Whenever in any province or territory any system is established or any plan exists for collecting agricultural, commercial, criminal, educational, manufacturing, vital or other statistics, the minister may, under authority of the Governor in Council, arrange with the Lieutenant Governor in Council of such province or territory, or with the organization possessed of such system or plan, for the collection and transmission of such information as is required by schedules prepared by the office under direction of the minister and approved by the Governor in Council "for the procuring of such statistics.
That gives us the authority.


Richard Blain: May I ask the hon. minister if it is his intention to adopt that for the province of Ontario ? The hon. gentleman is well aware that in Ontario the assessment is made every year. Therefore, may I ask the hon. minister if he intends to have enumerators in Ontario in addition to those who are now doing this work, or are we to understand that in Ontario there will be no new enumerators appointed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Wherever the statistics can be obtained from an existing organization the intention is, under the powers of this Bill, to utilize that existing organization, and in no case, under such circumstances, to create a new organization to do the same work.


Mr. DANIEL.: I would like to ask the hon. minister what method he proposes to adopt to collect the vital statistics especially in the eastern provinces. In the province of Nova Scotia at present I believe they have no Registration Act, and I would like to know how he expects to collect the statistics there or in New Brunswick, or if

he intends really to have a system to collect the vital statistics of the whole Dominion, so that we can get them fully and correctly.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Clause 15 of the Bill gives that power, and it would be my intention to utilize that power for that purpose.


Mr.   D.@: iNIEI.. Is it the intention of the hon. minister to take action in the direction of collecting the vital statistics of the Dominion ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say in general terms that while I have not formulated any plan of doing that at the moment, I think it is perhaps one of the earlier classes of information that we ought to attack. The vital statistics are at present pretty well collected in most of the provinces. Wherever they are we would utilize the provincial machinery for that purpose, and simply get the information from the authorities who have collected it. Wherever that was not done in a province or in any other way than provincial we would feel it necessary to obtain that information.	'


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: Does that mean that the hon. minister proposes to perform duties that the provinces are doing for themselves and impose upon the people of the Dominion an expense that is not justified ? The provinces have the power to collect these statistics and in my own province they are doing it. If it goes abroad that where a province fails to do that which it ought to do the Dominion is ready to pay the cost out of its own exchequer, there will be an abandonment of a great many matters which belong to the provinces and the whole load will be imposed upon the Dominion. I hope the hon. minister will consider that before he embarks upon a proposition of that kind.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: In this connection perhaps my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture will allow me to remind him that in the province of Quebec, as the hon. minister knows, we collect many statistics and the scope of these statistics has been enlarged a little by perfecting our system of vital statistics. My hon. friend knows that under our municipal system, the secretary treasurer of each municipality is obliged to furnish to the government every year a very large quantity of information particularly concerning the agricultural districts. It does not cost anything, as my hon. friend from Beauharnois (Mr. Bergeron) reminds me. My own feeling is, without having studied very carefully my hon. friend's Bill, that it would give us a great deal of relief if my hon. friend would allow that Bill to stand over, at any rate, for one year. It is surprising the amount of money we have spent in order to take the last census. My hon. friend is aware that we have spent, I think, $1,250,000, or somewhere near that sum-a great deal more


John Waterhouse Daniel: than we ever spent before. It seems a very large sum to spend to find out the population of the country that scarcely amounts to six million souls, and from what I have seen, census taking costs more in Canada than it costs in any other country, having regard to population, except, perhaps, India, because in India there is a prejudice and fear on the part of the natives in re' gard to the enumerators and census officers, which certainly does not exist here. I would submit to my hon. friend that he might, instead of enacting this Bill this year, bestow some consideration on the system of census taking which .is known as the de facto system and w'hich is the system prevailing in England. I was astonished some time ago upon reading in a review how easily and how promptly the census was taken in England and at what a comparatively small cost as compared with w'hat our census costs us here. Papers, formulas, or blanks are distributed, and the whole census in England is taken in the space, I think, of one or two days, at least the principal portions of it. Each citizen is obliged to make a return under severe penalties. This is the de facto system as opposed to our own system which is the de jure system. I have noticed that this last census has cost us a great deal more than any other census which has been taken. We take it every ten years and after the little word of explanation my hon. friend has given us of this Bill, it is reasonable to conclude that we are laying the foundation for an expenditure during the next ten years of from $35,000 to $45,000 a year. I think it is -well for us to pause, because we have so much to do with the little money at our disposal, so many improvements that are absolutely necessary. Our constitution provides for a decennial census, and for my part I would like to spend a little more every ten years to get correct information than to make the census a permanent burden upon our resources.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend (Mr. Monk) has brought into the discussion twro points which I will not elaborate upon just now. One is the cost of the last census and the other is the question of the de facto as compared with the de jure census. In regard to the former we have discussed that a good deal, we have threshed it out pretty well and I am not going to deal with it just now. In regard to the de facto and de jure census I may say that the de jure system was deliberately adopted in Canada at the commencement of our census taking, at the time of confederation, I think, in fact, before confederation, and it has been continued from that time to this. At the time at which I was charged with the duty of taking the last census, I discussed pretty thoroughly with a number of Individuals whom I thought informed upon this question the advisability of proposing a change
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from the de jure to the de facto system. While theoretically a little attracted myself personally to the de facto system I came to the conclusion that in this country and under the circumstances and conditions of our census taking it would be unfortunate, and that it would not be at all advisable to attempt to introduce the de facto system because the change necessarily would to a certain extent vitiate comparisons between the information gathered under one census taken de facto with the same information gathered in another census taken de jure. But, more than that and 1 think far more important was the fact that under the system which is pursued in England when the census returns are taken, as my hon. friend says, de facto, taken in one day, or one night, there is very little information got. There is simply the counting of heads, or noses, and some vital or mortuary statistics. There is nothing taken in regard to the industries of the country. There is no information gathered as to the productions of the country, as to houses, factories, as to plani, machinery or investments in the'se factories, as to the amount of the product that is turned out, or as to the agricultural productions of the country. The census taken in England is taken cheaply. It is taken in one night but it only gives the actual figures of population and some vital or mortuary statistics.
Our census is taken on an entirely different system.. The census in the United States is on a larger scale than ours, but it is on the same principle, and I venture to think that, especially in this a rapidly growing and progressive country, one of the most important parts of a census taking is tlie collection of information as to our industrial, agricultural, fishery and forest productions, to furnish information to people who want to invest money or to settle in this country and also to furnish information to those who are engaged in the active life of this country as to openings and the possibilities of development in their own lines of business. I would be sorry indeed to think that our census should be changed to a census such as that taken in England, even to make that saving to which my hon. friend alludes. The two things are totally different, and with census taking of the kind we have here, the de jure system works out on the whole the most satisfactorily. Under our .social system here there are a great many people who are away from home at any particular date. If these people were to be enumerated only where they were at that date, the information gathered would be in many'cases misleading as we have to take not only the actual counting of the people, but also all this other information to which I have alluded, and we can easily take the number of people even though they might not be under the roof in which they ought to be numbered on that particular date. Our census is not taken in a night,
but it is taken during a very short period, of two or three weeks, during which the information is gathered by a comparatively small number of enumerators. If the work was done as it is in England we would have to depend entirely on the people [DOT]filling up correctly a paper left at their houses, and I think we would be led astray by the results even in the number of the people alone, but to get the other information, would be quite impossible.


Mr. SPROULE.: Are you not introducing the same principle here where y'ou send out papers and expect parties to make returns ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We expect selected parties not evex-ybody. In the case of industrial establishments all the information is obtained from the people actually engaged in the management of the industry who would be able to give us the information we want. We are not goiixg to every household, but only to the people who will give information about the industries and who can also give it about other things.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You would have to send them to a class of people intelligent enough to understand. There ax'e not sufficient instructions accompanying these schedules to enable every one to understand them, and therefore tliey will not be correctly answered.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think my hon. friend does not quite understand me. In the case of in-dustilal establishments of course the form would have to be sent to every establishment ; in the case of other information a great deal of it would have to be gotten from an official or individual in the community who would give the information in general terms. That infoi'mation would not be absolutely accurate; it would be sufficient to give the information, but not sufficiently accurate for census pui'poses. We cannot expect, without actual enumeration, absolute accuracy, but in general statistical work we can get by shell a system as I have indicated information sufficiently accurate to serve between the census.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do we not get much of this infoi'mation already through the Statistical Branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce ? Then too, much of it is obtained from the Bureau of Industries, that is carried on for the province of Ontario which makes these returns annually, while the Department of Trade and Commerce makes its returns every month. It seems to me this is duplicating this work.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not under my hand at the moment the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, but unless I am mistaken that is compiled to a large extent simply from the customs returns and does not give the production. I do not think it goes into industries at all ; I know it does not go into agricultural, forestry or mineral

production. I am speaking now subject to correction, but I think it is purely in regard to the movement of trade and is prepared almost entirely from the trade tables of the Department of Customs.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood it was to extend not only to the Department of Trade and Commerce, but to the Department of Minerals and to the various other branches of industry. That is my remembrance of what was told the House when the Bill was t passed. This information was to be collect' ed and a certain number of parties iu the office were to be permanent officials to collate these figures and to publish them in such a shape that they could be issued from month to month and distributed throughout the country. I am not prepared to say if the production was to be given. That information we in Ontario, get from the Bureau of Industries. I think we have a permanent staff in connection with the census working for the whole ten years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have a staff which is working on statistics and which prepares the year book annually, practically nothing else.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many years is it since the census was taken ? We are now in 1905 and it was taken in 1901. The work of the census has all been done and yet you still have that staff ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As I said in answer to a question by the bon. member for Leeds (Mr. laylor) yesterday, the work of the census as a census has been finished. There is still a small staff which is working on general statistics trying to work out tables and information from the census compilations. That is a portion of census work which is practically permanent and which the office that I am now about to create will be doing all the time from one census to another. Such information as is contained in former census volumes has been prepared and finished ; but there is a constant desire to make comparisons and to draw tabular information from these regular compilations of the census which would supply work for a considerable staff from one census to the other. That work would be done all the time by this office. But besides that, I want to get corroborative or corrective information between the censuses. There is an infinite variety of information of great service to the community to be made up from the census returns and from tables which have perhaps never been included in the census volume, but which can be and ought to be taken for the statistical information of the people at large, and which ought to be issued from time to time. As I have said, there is a little of that work now being done in my office, and, if this Bill passes, there may still be a little of it done by the general statistics staff ; but I want to provide a machinery by which that can be Mr. FISHER.
done better and by which interim information can be collected between the censuses.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It certainly seems to me that this Bill will duplicate many of these offices. We have already a mines branch in connection with the geological survey which collects mining information; we have a staff collecting information for the Yearbook ; and we have a staff connected with the Department of Trade and Commerce collecting much of the information which the hon. minister proposes to use in this new department. If we add another branch to these three, shall we not be rather multiplying the work ? You might possibly consolidate the work, and make one staff do the work now done by three or four ; but unless you do that, it seems to me that you will be increasing the expense, very materially without obtaining any compensating return therefor.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: With regard to the Yearbook staff, that is in my department and will be consolidated with this. With regard to the mines branch referred to by my.hon, friend, I confess that I am not very familiar with what information they are issuing,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They give the output.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That would be included in the work proposed here. My memory of the Trade and Commerce returns is that they are simply a compilation of trade statistics.


Richard Blain: I understood the hon. minister to say that the annual expense of this proposed office will be between $35,000 and $40,000 per year-say $40,000. In ten years that will amount to $400,000. Are we to understand that when the time comes for taking the general census, the cost of that work will be decreased by that amount as a result of the introduction of this Bill ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, I do not think so.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand, then, that the cost will be increased by that amount ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I mean to say that when the census year comes, the census will have to be taken, and that the work connected with this office will only decrease the cost of that work in so far as the staff of this permanent office will be more complete and better prepared for the census work.


Richard Blain: I suppose some calculation has been made. Perhaps the hon. minster could say about what amount that would be ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would not like to venture a statement on that point. I believe it would somewhat decrease the cost of taking the decennial census. I could not just say how much until I have had experience.


Mr. KEMP.: So far as my knowledge goes, I have not heard that there is any de-

niand from the public or from the members of this House for any more statistics of this character. It may be that some of the work proposed by this Bill could be done by strengthening some of the departments that already exist. We have now a duplication of statistics, as in the Trade and Navigation returns and the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce. We are overloaded with statistics ; we have more statistics than any member of this House can digest. It is a very difficult matter to know how to dispose of the various books that come to us during the recess, in such a manner that they will be useful. Moreover, we are spending an enormous amount of money on the census. While the census of 1881 cost $456,904.19 and that of 1891 cost $570,115.54, the census of 1901 has cost up to the 7th of March, 1904, $1,179,376.01, and notwithstanding that the complete census is not yet at the disposal of members of this House or ready for distribution to the public. No later than this afternoon 1 inquired for the last volume or the last two volumes, and I was told that there are certain portions not yet completed ready for distribution, although four years have passed by since the census was taken. It seems to me that there is a good deal of theory in this Bill ; and, considering the tremendous cost of taking the census and the immense amount of statistics we already have, and the duplication of statistics that takes place at present, it seems to me that we ought to hesitate about adopting such an elaborate plan as that laid before us in this Bill.


Mr. PRINGLE.: I fail to see the necessity for this enormous expenditure. I do not think the hon. Minister of Agriculture has considered fully the very valuable statistics we now have in our different provinces and territories. For instance, in the province of Ontario we have almost every statistic that could possibly be required. We have the annual report of the Ontario Bureau of Industries, in which you will find all the agricultural statistics which could conceivably be obtained in our province ; and I understand that there are similar x-eports in the province of Quebec and the other provinces. Then, we have repox'ts in regard to the industrial industries of the province. In fact, our pi-ovince has an army of inspectors going about obtaining statistics in regard to the different industries of the country, and their reports are very full and complete. We have also our annual report as to population, births, marriages and deaths.
We also have reports regarding the mining industries of Ontario and covering in fact all the industrial, agricultural, and mining life. As I understand the proposition here, under sxxbsection 2 of section 4. is that the minister takes to himself the right to employ from time to time such persons as ai'e necessax-y to collect statistical infoi'm-21
ation, and he tells us that, according to his intex'px'etation of that section, he will inquire from parties who are friendly throughout the different provinces and they will give him the information. But sxxch information "cannot be as valuable as that which we find in the repox*ts issued by the different provincial authorities. We are going to add an expenditure in the next ten years of half a million dollars, according tc the statement of the hon. minister, for reports which are not authentic and wixieh are to be obtained from the friends of the minister throughout the Dominion, and this, in spite of the fact that we have to-day in the different provinces, authentic reports of a similar character which ax-e issued yearly. I quite agree with my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) that this Bill should stand over until we have the opportunity to look mox-e carefully into it. Take up the last report for the pi-ovince of Ontario issued by the Ontario Bureau of Industries, and you will find the minutest details given regarding the crop production. Yoxx will find that they take up the question of fruit trees and live stock, and labour and wages, and give statistics on all these points. Then take up the factory inspector's report and yoxx will find that it gives the number of employees, the output of the various indus-tx-ies, and so oii. Take xxp the x'eport with regard to the mines axxd yoxx will find similar information in detail.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: What I said was that at present we are speixding a little under $20,000 oxx this kind of work and we would have to add to that $20,000 more. The addition I am proposing is $20,000, or $40,000 in all per annum.


Mr. LABOR.: Did the hon. minister not say that that would be liable to increase every year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It may. As the demand for information increases, the expenditure will be apt to increase. If there is no demand for this information, the expenditure will not increase. I am proposing an increased expenditure of $20,000 a year. As regards what my hon. friend from Cornwall has said, while it is true that the province of Ontario has the report of the Bureau of Industries, there is no such x-eport in any other part of the Dominion. I think that Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, give some vital and mortuary statistics and that Manitoba furnishes some agricultural statistics. As regards the reports of the industries in Toronto, there is not an army of officers going around collecting these reports. They are largely the results of correspondence anil "are sent in by individuals from different parts of the country. With regard to the report of the inspector of factories, it deals mainly with the conditions of the factories from a hygienic and safety point of view, but I do rxot think it gives the details of



their production. The province of Quebec does not collect statistics of this kind. It does collect certain mortuary and vital statistics, and has a report of the factory inspector on the conditions of the factories. Those we will certainly make use of. My hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Osier) says there is no demand for this measure. I would reply, there is a constant demand in my office for just such information as it is proposed we shall get by virtue of this Bill.


Edmund Boyd Osler: The information published by the province of Ontario is regarded as fairly complete.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I believe so.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Does the Ontario government employ outside men at salaries as the hon. minister proposes? It seems to me that one of the weaknesses of this Bill is clause 4 which gives the minister power to appoint an unlimited number. Such appointments will no doubt be made through political influence, and I do not believe that such discretion should be vested in the hands of the minister. While I am not quite aware how the Ontario government obtain their information, I do not think they have any such agents. I think they get it through officials m the parliament buildings. I think that this clause giving the minister that power is a very dangerous one, and I do not believe it is one under which reliable information would be obtained. My understanding of the Ontario procedure is exactly the same as his own, and the same as I would propose to pursue under this Act. At the same time, if it were necessary, under certain circumstances or in order to collect certain classes of information, to appoint a special commissioner, that ought to be done.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would call my hon. friend's attention to a clause of the General Statistics Act that perhaps, he has not noticed. Clause 3 of that Act provides that the Governor in Council, on the report of the Minister of Agriculture as to the persons to be appointed, may appoint officers, clerks or other employees necessary for the purposes of the Act. And, under another section, I have power, to collect practically any kind of statistics I want.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Then why ask specifically for that power here ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is a consolidation of the three laws that I have spoken of, but it gives me the added authority of collecting information in the same way that I now collect census information, by making it the legal duty of parties to give me the information on demand.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Will the hon. minister please read the clause under which he claims to have power to collect these statistics ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I read from chapter 59 [DOT]of the Consolidated Statutes, section 1:


Mr. FISHER.: 1. The Minister of Agriculture shall, from time to time, subject to the approval of the Governor in Council, make such rules and regulations, and prescribe such forms as appear necessary and expedient for the purpose of collecting, abstracting, tabulating and publishing vital, agricultural, commercial, criminal and other statistics ; and such rules, regulations and forms, when assented to by the Governor in Council and published in the ' Canada Gazette,' shall have the force of law.
That enables me to decide what information I shall collect. Then section 3 provides:
3. The Governor in Council, on a report of the Minister of Agriculture as to the fitness of the persons to be appointed, may, from time to time, appoint such officers, clerks and other employees as are necessary for the purposes of this Act ; and such officers, clerks or employees shall hold office during pleasure. The Governor in Council may also appoint temporary clerks or employees for an indefinite period, the term of whose service shall cease and determine upon notice ^iven to them by the Minister of Agriculture, when such portion of the statistical labours for which they were so engaged, and for which they were employed, is terminated.
This clause gives me power to employ clerks and others to tabulate the Information which the other clause gives me power to collect. The section of this new Bill we are now discussing gives me practically no more power than I have now.


Edmund Boyd Osler: It gives the minister more direct power.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It gives it in a more concise and definite form.


Edmund Boyd Osler: It gives the minister the personal power.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have the personal power under the old Act. The Governor in Council can do it.


Mr. BARR.: So far as the province of Ontario is concerned, I think the collection of information under the provincial authority is much more exact and much cheaper than it can possibly be under this measure. As I understand it, in the province this information is largely collected by the assessors and county clerks. By these officers vital statistics and statistics relating to agriculture and other industries can be collected at a minimum of expense. And the information must be exact, for the assessors go about and get the information at first band and report it to the Bureau of Statistics. It seems to me that there is a good deal of haziness about the methods to be followed under this Bill. So far as the other provinces are concerned, I suppose the conditions are much the same as in Ontario. Under the Bill clerks are to be appointed, but there is nothing to show what machinery is to be used to gather the statistics. Is it intended to get the facts from the assessors, or will the facts be collected by agents specially employed ? In the latter case, I believe it will be Impossible

to obtain reliable statistics. I do not see why the machinery now in use in the province is not quite sufficient, except for gathering the facts called for by the decennial census.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Barr) probably was not present when I answered a similar objection. If he will turn to section 16 of the Bill, he will see that I take power to obtain from provincial or other organizations any information they may have. But this information may be in different form in different provinces, and work must be done in the offices here to correlate it, compile and tabulate it as information concerning the whole Dominion.


Albert Edward Kemp: But it seems to me that this information that the minister speaks of can be much more conveniently and more cheaply acquired through the local governments than through the Dominion government. The provincial governments are more closely in touch with municipalities and the municipal officers than is the government of the Dominion. It has been said that Ontario has taken the pains to publish statistics that other provinces have not published. Is not that itself evidence that these other provinces do not think it worlh while to compile this information ? It seems to me that this is a work for which the provincial authorities should be responsible, and they can vary the form of the publication to suit the conditions of their several provinces.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: What my hon. friend (Mr. Kemp) says may be perfectly true. At the same time, information may be collected by one provincial government on certain lines and by another provincial government on totally different lines. This prevents the figures being taken as national figures relating to the whole Dominion. It seems to me it is the duty of this parliament to provide information regarding the whole country, information which people outside will look upon, not as Ontario information, or Nova Scotia, or Quebec, or Bx-itish Columbia information, but as information about Canada. And the more of that kind of work we do, consolidating our Dominion into one country and giving information of a national character, the more are we doing to make Canada a nation in the eyes of the world.


Richard Blain: Do I understand the minister to say that when this Bill becomes law it will have no special application to the province of Ontario ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not at all, I did not convey that impression at all.


Richard Blain: Perhaps I did not understand the minister. In clause 16 it is provided that wherever such information can be procured through the local government it will be procured, and the minister tells us without any additional cost. It has been 214
pointed out this afternoon that every possible information that could be pi-ocured even by special commissioners is already compiled by the Ontario government. For instance, in the Statistical Year Book, published by the hon. gentleman's own department, I find given the number of horses in Ontario, not every ten years, but every year, in 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900, and so on every year; also the number of milch cows in the province of Ontario, the number of sheep, the number of hogs, the number of poultry, and so on, the details given from every county, and taken every year. My hon. friend now says that under this Bill he will use that information as far as possible. May I ask the minister what other information he will be able to get from the province of Ontario that he would send out to the people.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would point out to my hon. friend that there is nothing in the report of the Bureau of Industries of Ontario in regard to industrial productions, a very large item in our census work, and a large item in the information which is constantly asked for from my department and other departments. That would have to be obtained from the province of Ontario as well as other provinces. But independently of that, the portions of this Bill which deal with the collecting of information are only a part of it. It also gives power and authority to compile, and tabulate, and cori*e-late information on these points which has been got from Ontario, and to put it along with the information on similar points got from the other provinces, so as to give information for the whole Dominion.


Richard Blain: I suppose the hon. gentleman knows that so far as Ontario is concerned it is all tabulated.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think it is to a large extent, although it may not be tabulated in certain lines, in such a manner that it would work into similar information gathered from other provinces. It might have to be changed in the tabulation and compilation, in consequence of the information which is got from other provinces, that being local in its character.
Mi-. BLAIN. The agricultural statistics in the province of Ontario are pretty well tabulated. May I ask the hon. gentleman what way he will take to collect other information from a county such as I represent, the county of Peel ?
Mr. FISHeR. I am not aware that there are any industrial establishments in his county.


Richard Blain: There are.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Well, my idea would be to send to those industrial establishments, supposing this work was being done within a few years of a census-send them a copy of the schedules which they them-

selves filled up at the time of the census, and ask them to fill up another form showing the changes, the increases, the additions, decreases, subtractions, and so forth. That would be the information concerning that industrial establishment for the year when that form was filled up. That would not require any agent, it would simply require us to send a form from the office here to the establishment to be filled up. I take power to require that that should be done, the same as I have power to require that it should be done in the census year, by enumerators, and it is a necessary part of the Act. All these returns would be sent into the office here to be tabulated and compiled.


Richard Blain: After all that is done, what does the hon. gentleman propose to do with the information ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: To compile it.


Mr.   BRAIN@: And publish it, send it out ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, there would be no object in getting the information unless it whs put into the hands of the public, ns a special report of this office.


Mr. MACDONELL.: The hon. gentleman has given us an idea of the proposed expenditure for enforcing this Bill, which will be an additional expenditure. Might I ask him what was the cause of the great increase in the cost of taking the last census over that of 1891 ? In 1891 the cost was 8570,115.54, whereas the census of 1901, taken under and by the present government, cost $1,079,376.01. A short time ago attention was drawn to the fact that the increase between the cost of the census of 1881 and that of 1891 was comparatively small, a little over $100,000 ; whereas the increase between the two last census was over half a million dollars. I would like to ask if there is any explanation of that ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As my hon. friend is a new member of the House and consequently has not heard the debates upon this question, I will give him a short resume of the reasons. They have, however, been thoroughly exposed in the former parliament, and therefore I will not develop them at great length. The increase was due mainly to three causes. First and most important, was the larger amount of information obtained, which necessitated a great deal more labour on the part of the enumerators, and a great deal more work in the office here in compilation. Secondly, the collection of every detail in the census, not only in the thickly populated parts of Canada, but also in the outlying portions of the country. For the first time in the history of census taking in Canada that was done, we enumerated the people and everything in detail all over the country. The questions were asked in various schedules that were sent with enumerators, even as far as the territories adjoining the Arctic Mr. FISHER.
ocean, in the Yukon, and in every part of the outlying and unorganized territories of the older provinces. In the former census that was not done, there was less expense in the enumeration of the people, and less details were given ; but in the previous census those things were only estimated in the office here. In the census of 1901, all those details were covered by the enumerators, and the actual facts were obtained by definite questions put on the spot to the people themselves. In the third place, these additional details involved a large increase in the cost of compilation in the office here at Ottawa, because these figures had to be again examined on the schedules, and put together by the compilers and made up into tables. In the former census that was not done. Another reason was the greater cost of living, the cost of wages, which was much greater in 1901 than in 1891.
The result was that we had to pay higher prices to the enumerators for all their work and all the expenses in connection with the census were largely increased by the difference in the cost of living and the cost of supplies generally in the one year over tiiat of the other. Another reason was in regard to the compilations. In the census of 1901, partly because of certain curious facts deduced by the figures of the census in comparison with the former census and partly because we wished that the final results of the census of 1901 should be absolutely accurate, we checked and recliecked all the compilations so as to make sure that there should be no errors. In the former census, after the first compilations were made, there was no further checking. They were issued and the result was that we found that there were a large number of grave and serious errors in the census of 1891. A census taken in that way was not sufficiently accurate to meet the demands of the people of this country, it was not sufficiently accurate to justify the expenditure that was made upon it, low as that expenditure, comparatively was, and was not of a character which I wished to father as a presentment to the people of this country of the work of my department. Under these circumstances the compilations and the work of checking over and making up the final returns w'ere more expensive than that of the census taken before the last or the census of 1881 either. These are the four main points of the reasons for the difference. I am not prepared at the present moment to go into the question in any further detail.


William Findlay Maclean: There is need in the country for a department like this, but ir must be well administered. I quite agree with what has been said that a similar office in the United States has rendered valuable service to the people there and especially 'in the way that there is a great development of trade. Statistics of this kind help to promote trade. But, it all depends upon

the methods. If the methods which the hon. minister proposes to introduce are as prosy as his speeches, I do not hope for much from tile measure, but if he will get a move on, organize this department with a very moderate expenditure to begin with and cut off some of the other expenditures in oilier departments of a somewhat similar character it may be that some good will lie effected. But, as I said, it all depends on the organization. For instance, if he proposes to put into this office mere partisans when the universities of this country are in a position to turn out clever young men fully trained for work of this kind, the object which lie lias in view will not be accomplished. If he would make it a non-partisan department. if he would get the best possible clerical and statistical service that can be t;ot in the country, and devote it in an energetic way to the presentation of this information, as they do in the United States, a considerable amount of good could be done. But, lie ought to be able after what has been brought out here to-day almost to establish this new department out of the savings from other departments that are more or less engaged in collecting information of this kind, i I must say that I sympathize largely witli the object lie lias in view, but it all depends ou the methods lie employs and the kind of men he puts into this service. It may be made a mere office for expending public inonev, but it can be made ail office that would promote the trade of the country and that would advance our industrial and agricultural interests, by furnishing them with information. The way to get that information is largely by pursuing a system like that which be lias outlined to this House, that is to take up one department one day and some other department on another. It all depends on the vigour witli which these statistics are prepared and presented to the public. There is nothing more interesting to the people engaged in trade than the bulletins that come from the census office in Washington to-day. One day they take up one interest, another day another and really a lot of valuable information is contained in these bulletins, but again, I say, we do not want prosy methods collecting this in-Tormation and presenting it to the public.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I appreciate my hon. friend's views and I will tell him that my speeches may be a little prosy, I am quite willing to press the passage of this Bill through the House as fast as lion, gentlemen opposite will allow me. No one wants more hasty methods in that respect than myself. My hon. friend has spoken about the work done in the United States. I have all tiie reports of the debates and tlie state-[DOT] meats upon which the permanent census bureau was established in the United States. Uhey have guided me to a large extent in what I have said here this afternoon. It is well to learn by the experience of other countries all we can. Exactly the same
condition of affairs as exists to-day in Canada existed in the United States, until a permanent census bureau was established and after it is established here I believe tlie same results will be brought about here as have heeu brought about there. I would like to say to my hon. friend that I quite agree with the view lie expressed id regard to university graduates. We ought to take as generally as we possibly can well trained minds for important public work. I have done that in the patent branch of my department. I have appointed examiners who are university graduates in some applied science. When I came into office I found that the men who were doing that work did not have a university training, and as vacancies occurred I added to tlie staff men with a scientific training in the work in which they are engaged. I would be quite prepared to adopt the same system in carrying out the provisions of this Bill.


William Findlay Maclean: It would be an encouragement to our universities to turn out high class technical men if the state would avail itself of their services. Unfortunately we have been appointing men to- many of these offices who are not technically trained and the consequence is that men who are trained in our universities go outside for employment. I would like to see these young men retained here and the universities encouraged to turn out high-class technical men. Toronto university is turning out graduates who are first-class men in mathematics, statistics, calculation and compilation, and If the government would encourage them the universities would turn out a still better class of men and devote more attention to these special subjects.


Mr. BENNETT.: The hon. minister will remember that last session, or perhaps the session before, when his estimates in connection with the census were being discussed a letter was read from a gentleman named Mr. McCraney, who, for a considerable period was, I think, the Liberal member for Halton county, Ontario. In that connection Mr. McCraney alleged that gross frauds had been perpetrated in one of the counties of British Columbia. I have not charged my memory with the name of the county. In that circular which he caused to be mailed to every hon. member of this House-I knovr I received one-this gentleman made the charge substantially that in all ways, shapes and forms the accounts bad been padded and speaking of that particular riding, he said that the cost of the census was double what it should honestly have been. Does the hon. minister remember that case and has he made an inquiry as to the action of the enumerators and the census officer ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I confess that I do not remember the case. The question of the expenditure in connection with the census was taken up in the Public Accounts Committee

of this House in the year succeeding the census. It was dealt with by several investigations before the Public Accounts Committee. That is the proper place to discuss it. No motion in regard to it was made in this House and no discussion in regard to that particular case that I remember of occurred.


William Humphrey Bennett: The letter referred to was published by Sir. McCraney and it, of course was actionable, it being sent throughout the country. It certainly was read in the House and the hon. minister must have heard of it although he may not remember it now.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may have although I do not remember it.


William Humphrey Bennett: Does the minister remember a case in East Simeoe where it was shown that three enumerators had each charged $3 a day for hotel expenses, when as a matter of fact they had not paid out a single cent ? That case was exposed among many others, of what might be called not only deliberate overcharging bat deliberate theft. During the campaign last November I made that statement publicly on the platform and reiterated it time and again. There is not a hotel in Orillia that charged $3 a day, and it was notorious that these men had simply each pocketed $6 and charged it up to the country. The worst of it is that the chief enumerator for the riding certified the accounts knowing that they were false and wrong and acts of petty thieving. If the minister wishes to look into this I shall give him the names and he can ask for a return of the amount. It is a small thing, but when you consider that there are two hundred constituencies with twenty or thirty enumerators in each constituency, if you have this petty thieving in each riding the amount involved must be very great.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That whole question was threshed out in the Public Accounts Committee two or three years ago. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennett) and all his friends had abundant opportunity of bringing it up in the House if they had chosen. 1 have not the details in my memory at the moment and I cannot discuss the cases which are finished so far as the department are concerned. I cannot now go into it.


William Humphrey Bennett: After we made the exposure in the committee it was not our business to prosecute these men,or to ask for the money ; it was the business of the minister and his department. If the department has not taken action I am going to recall this and other cases and hope the minister will look into them.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In addition to that there were two or three cases where enumerators had charged horse-hire in their accounts and when they were brought before the committee and put on oath swore that they paid


Sydney Arthur Fisher: no horse-hire and had no need to do so. This was brought to the attention of the government and mentioned in this House. When that was done by the opposition the opposition I assume had done all their duty and it lay with the government to ask for an explanation or a refund from these men.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not remember any such case.


William Humphrey Bennett: Let me call the attention of the minister to another case mentioned by the hon. member for East Hastings (Mr. Northrup). There was simply a scandalous state of affairs in that riding with regard to overcharging by enumerators. Surely the minister remembers the East Hastings cases brought up by the hon. member (Mr. Northrup) ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not remember the case under that description.


William Humphrey Bennett: That is the case of Mr. Hurley. I cannot say without referring to the evidence that Mr. Hurley did anything wrong, but I know that in the case of the enumerators there were gross over-charges.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I remember the case of Mr. Hurley who was examined before the Public Accounts Committee. I do not remember any details on which a prosecution could be based.
Mr. [DOT] BENNETT. I did not charge my memory with the details for every riding, but I remember East Simeoe and I say that there there were cases of deliberate thieving.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The amounts were sworn to by the enumerators, initialled by their superior officers and paid on these statements.


William Humphrey Bennett: Then the mere fact that they have sworn to the statements and that the enumerator has initialled them is all there is to it. I shall give the minister the three names as I do not wish them to go on * Hansard.' I made the statement publicly in the town of Orillia. The worst of it all is that the chief enumerator must have been a party to it. I have discharged n y duty and if the minister does not wish to ask for a refund well and good.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Will the hon. gentleman give me the names ?


William Humphrey Bennett: Yes. I may tell the minister that as the administration of the criminal law in Ontario will now be ifi other hands there may be some criminal prosecutions in connection with cases of that kind.


George Eulas Foster: Could the minister give the staff and the salaries in each of the departments that he is amalgamating ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 
Edward Cochrane: I would like to ask the minister when the census will be completed :
I received a letter from a medical gentleman in my riding asking information which he and everybody else supposed was obtained when the census was taken, and when I sent to the department for it, I was told that that part was not compiled yet. When is it likely to be done ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is all in the hands of the Printing Bureau at the present time.


Edward Cochrane: When the party which I have the honour of supporting was in power, we heard a great deal time and again from lion, gentlemen opposite about the delay in taking the census. You have had an opportunity of taking the census and it will lie hoary with age, if not with respectability, before you get it out, and it cost three times as much as it did in 1894.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say to my hon. friend that the information which has been issued up to the present time has been got out much more promptly than it was in the previous census.


Edward Cochrane: But up to the present time it is not out. You have only got it iu the hands of the printer, and, perhaps, when I ask for it next session, you will say it is somewhere else.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The volume -which I laid before this House ,at the beginning of this session of 1905 contains the same information, and much more, which was contained in the volume of the last census which was laid on the table in 1897, or two years later in relation to the census year.


Edward Cochrane: It is wonderful how correct the minister's memory is in regard to that, but how, when he is asked in regard to his own work, he forgets. I want to cal) his attention to what occurred in the riding which I have the honour to represent. One of the enumerators for the village of Brighton was appointed from one of the
townships outside, and his horse-hire cost more than his wages ; and in the village of Hastings, with a population of less than a thousand, the enumerators all charged horse-hire in addition to their pay-I suppose because they were sworn to. The said parties were not asked to refund.


Richard Blain: When may we expect the full returns to be printed and ready foi distribution ?
Mr. FISHER, As I stated just now, the second volume contains all the agricultural, mineral and forestry compilations ; and the third volume, which is still in the hands of the printer, contains the industrial and the other compilations. I cannot really tel) when that volume will be finished-I hope before the end of the session. The whole information of this census will be contained in four volumes. These four volumes will contain a great deal more information than was contained in the four volumes of the last census. The last volume of the previous census, which contained the agricultural statistics, was not issued till the year 1897. The same information, which is contained in the second volume of this census, was laid on the table of the House at the beginning of this session.


Mr. EENNOX.: I have listened very attentively to what has been said this afternoon, with a desire to ascertain certain things definitely. I wish to take this question, whether we should have this new department or not, seriously into my consideration ; and I admit that, although I have given the matter my most minute attention,
I have not yet got all the information I need. We have had a great deal of information from the hon. minister, but it is something like that in the census-it will take probably more work to classify and rearrange it than it does even to get the information from the minister. But we are yet at the threshold of this matter, and, as we have half an hour before we rise fot dinner, that time might be usefully employed by the minister in giving us some necessary information. Just what we want, definitely and clearly, is : What is the need of this legislation ? What call has there been for it ? What additional income will it bring to the people of Canada ? What increased facilities will it afford to the people of Canada for making a livelihood, and that kind of thing ? Nobody is in a better position to give that information than the minister, and I ask him to use the half hour now at our disposal to give to the House and the country a clear and distinct statement of just in what way Canada will be benefited by having this large additional expenditure cast upon the people.	*


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Well, Mr. Chairman, I suppose, in deference to my hon. friend's ques tion, I shall have to run the risk of offending the hon. member for South York (Mr. COMMONS
Maclean), who objects to my speaking al length : but I think I can give the hon. gentleman the reasons in a much shorter time than half an hour. I gave it fully in the early part of the debate, but the hon. gentleman was not in the House.


Haughton Lennox: Excuse me ; I heard every word the minister said this afternoon. He told us the condition of things in the province of Ontario and all the other provinces ; but he has not told us of the difficulties that have arisen or of the remedy that will be brought about by this measure. He has told us, it is true, that some people have made application to his office for certain information which it is difficult to give ; but that is very far from the kind of information which the country wants as to the necessity for this large increase of expenditure. What I want is something that I can lay before my constituents, saying to them : ' I am a great friend of the Minister of Agriculture ; we are engaged in the same general calling, and I want to justify him before the people.' What I want is something in two or three pages with which 1 can show the reason there is for what the minister wants to do.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think I can gratify my hon. friend to a certain extent, though I cannot promise to a complete extent. We want to give the people of Canada information in detail between the census years in regard to the industrial and agricultural productions of the country-statistics which will be of later date than those contained in the census. We do not want the people to have to go back, as at the present time, five years, or, as it will be next year, six years, or, as it may be, nine years, to get that information. We want to have it between times, so that they will be able to study the economic conditions of this Dominion with later information than we now have.
Mr. It. I,. BORDEN. Will my hon. friend allow me to ask a question just there ? He has taken the census in 1901, and he has certain information as to that year placed before parliament and the people in 1905. By this method he proposes to obtain certain information as of the year 1902 or the year 1003. Well, if the information as to the year 1901 is placed before the people of this country in 1905. at what date may we expect the information ascertained in 1902 and 1903 to be placed before them ?
Mr. I* USHER. I believe that by an organization of this office we shall be able to get the census information before the public more rapidly than it lias been got in the past. Th# information we will obtain will not be quite so much in detail as that which is obtained at the decennial census, but it will be put in the hands of the public in less than two years from the time it is collected. The information which we got for


Sydney Arthur Fisher: the census of 1901 was only concluded in 1905, or four years later, and that is still two \ ears quicker work than was done in the case of the census of 1891.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand the hon. minister to say that he will be able to publish this supplementary information in a year and a half from the time it was taken. We will thus have in the middle of 1903 information as to 1902, but we have not got until 1905, information as to 1901.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I hope that this office, when established and the work done by a permanent staff, will be able to turn out the information much quicker than at present.


Robert Laird Borden: Or it might lead to some more rapid method of compilation so far as general results are concerned.


Albert Edward Kemp: How long will the hon. minister leave the manuscript in the hands of the Printing Bureau before handing it over to a private printing office where the work would be done promptly ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: By law we are required to have the work done in the Bureau, but tile Bureau has the privilege of giving it out to other people.


Haughton Lennox: I would like to know what the difficulty or disease is which the minister proposes to remedy. We have a census taken every ten years. Wliat additional benefit are we going to get by what is now proposed and which is going to cost us half a million dollars. What specific advantage, for instance, is going to accrue to the farmers ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They will benefit by getting information regarding their business which they are not able to get now. The work, for instance, done by the Bureau of Industries in Ontario is so much appreciated by the farmers that they are willing to contribute all the information they can give, by filling in the forms and sending them to the Bureau at Toronto, and are quite satisfied to get the bulletins in return.


Edward Cochrane: Why should the farmers of Ontario contribute for the obtaining of the same information from the other provinces which they are giving themselves without charge ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The farmers of Ontario are sufficiently public spirited to want the information for the whole Dominion. They have at present no means of getting that information except as regards their own province.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Of what nature is the agricultural information to be obtained from the farmers ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Very largely the kind of information given in the report of the Bureau of Industries in Ontario.

65S


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Is it information as to the number of horses, sheep and cattle raised, or what class of information ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That information is included in the reports of the Bureau of Industries of Ontario. Also the areas of crops and the average crop production, the number of animals and the increases of animals. That is the character of the information to be obtained and distributed. That is the character of the information that to-day is set forth in the reports of the Bureau of Industries of Ontario, which hon. gentlemen familar with that province have stated is of great value and is accurately and well collected.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Then, if I understand the minister aright, he will gain this information simply by sending circulars indiscriminately to the farmers and asking them to reply ; and if the farmers do not happen to reply, or if, say, one-third of the farmers ] of the province do not happen to reply, lie will have practically no information at all.!


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is the way that to i a very considerable extent the information is obtained by the Bureau of Industries of Ontario. Yet, it has been obtained successfully and accurately, so that those who are familiar with it accept it with confidence \ as being accurate. I do not see why information cannot be got for the rest of the provinces in the same way.


Robert Laird Borden: If the information is already collected for the province of Ontario, what object has the minister in trying to collect it again ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend (Mr. It. L. Borden) will see that this information is gathered by the provincial government of Ontario. The same is done to a certain small extent by the provincial government of Manitoba. But it is not collected anywhere else in Canada. We want to obtain information for the whole Dominion. If the information is already gathered for the province of Ontario, then, under section 16 of the Bill, we are empowered to make use ol' it. We will not duplicate it. But, where the information has not been obtained, we will have to do the same work as has been done for the province of Ontario. But, even in Ontario, the figures cover only the facts for that province, and neither the people of Ontario nor any others have the figures for the whole Dominion. We know, for instance, how many horses there are in Ontario, but we do not know how many there are in the Dominion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How is the minister going to collect that information ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Just as it is collected in the province of Ontario.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: But let me call the minister's attention to the fact that the information for Ontario is not collected as he proposes to collect it elsewhere. The information for Ontario is collected by the assessors, whereas the minister proposes to collect it. by sending circulars indiscriminately to the farmers in the different localities. In the one case the information is authentic and reliable, and in tlie other it will not be.
Mr. BARR, it is tlie fact not only that the statistics in Ontario are carefuliy collected, but also that they are sent broadcast to the farmers. Every member of the agricultural society in the province of Ontario, and, I believe in tlie province of Manitoba as well, receives, week by week or month by month, the bulletins containing this complete and accurate information. And not only farmers but business men and men of all classes, have that information. And I cannot see in what way tlie minister proposes to increase the volume of our knowledge by the information he proposes to gather.


Mr.   F.@: iSHER. I do not expect to increase that knowledge so far as the province of Ontario is concerned ; but I want to try to get tlie same information for tlie rest of the Dominion and compile it with the knowledge we get from Ontario and make a national return covering the whole Dominion. My hon. friend from Haldimand (Mr. Lalor) says that this information collected by the provincial government of Ontario is furnished by the assessors. He is quite correct, to a certain extent, but not altogether, as I am informed. Some of it is collected by the assessors, hut a good deal is collected by direct communication with the farmers in tlie way I have suggested.
iir. LENNOX. The hon. member for Haidimand (Mr. Lalor) has assisted me in getting a partial reply from the minister as to the benefit to the farmers of Canada to be secured by collecting and disseminating this information. I understand the minister to say that, by reason of what lie proposes to do, the farmers will obtain more promptly, certain statistical information. He gives an illustration of that by saying that information will be. given, earlier than is now possible, as to the number of horses in tlie country, the number of acres under cultivation, the number of acres devoted to other uses and so on. But what, I ask the minister is this :	Assuming that he is correct, how
is that going to benefit the farmers ? Is there any other way that he can suggest, beyond the one he lias mentioned, by which the farmers will benefit in the result of this measure ? If there is no other way, I am content to let the matter drop. But I want to be definite about it; to be able to say that I asked the minister to state all the benefits that would accrue from his plan and that I had a direct answer to my question.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I thought I answered that completely a few minutes ago when I said

tl'at the farmer wants information about his business which he has not got, but which will be collected and prepared for his use by the machinery X propose to establish under this measure.


Haughton Lennox: The minister does not seem to distinguish exactly the point.we put. He is assuming that certain information is necessary. Granting that we shall get certain information at an earlier day than we otherwise could-not very much earlier-I ask what dollar will the farmer make that he does not make to-day ? I have been unable, as yet, to see that the minister has explained that point. It may be owing to my density-
An lion. MEMBER. Hear, hear.


Haughton Lennox: In answer to the hon. gentleman who says hear, hear, I may say that I, at least, am trying to bring out information of interest to the people. But I have been unable to see what pecuniary benefit this will be to the people of Canada, and I spoke of the farmers merely by way of illustration. The minister has not yet explained that point so far as I can see.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I must grant to my hon. friend (Mr. Lennox) that the aetual dollars and cents value of statistics is rather difficult to define. We take a census every ten years. We issue reports from the several departments. I believe all this is a necessity of civilized government, and that the more of that information we can give the people concerning^ the business of the country the better it is for the jieople. And the sooner that information is before the people, and the better the shape in which it is furnished, the better they will be able to prosecute the enterprises in which they are engaged. I do not think I can particularize more tTian that.


John Graham Haggart: The minister does not seem to grasp the full meaning of his own Bill. lie is adopting a system that is partially in use in the United States. What good would the information now published under the United States system be if it were published a year or two later than it actually is under their present system ? The statistical information which is gathered in the United States by means which the minister proposes to adapt to Canada, is used immediately in the United States, where it is furnished within a week or two after the result is known. For what purposes is it furnished ? For commercial purposes, for railway purposes. You know the amount of corn which is likely to be cropped in a given year long before it is marketed ; the same with wheat, the same with cotton. The farmer in the United States knows the condition of the market every month. The Minister of Agriculture does not seem to know, to understand, or to grasp the object of this Bill he has introduced. The object of the Bill is to furnish Mr. FISHER.
to the mercantile class, to the farmers, and to the producers throughout the country, information as to the amount produced every month during the year. When he has possession of that information he knows what price to ask for his grain, or whether to hold it any longer. But the minister says, Oh, this information is supplementary to the' census, and it will be gathered a year or two afterwards.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think perhaps my hon. friend did not comprehend me when I spoke about the time the information would be given out. I meant that to refer to intercensus work to be done on a large scale. The office I speak of would issue interim bulletins much more frequently that that, information regarding crop returns, for instance, and matters of that kind, regarding which information would be given out from time to time as soon as it was obtained and compiled.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. gentleman stated also that this was a statistical Bill, an amalgamation of the census and statistics branches, that he was following the lines of the census law of the United States, the object of which he did not seem to understand. Then the minister speaks of the statistics gathered from the different provinces. What will be the result of the plan that he proposes to follow ? For instance, Ontario at the present time furnishes these agricultural statistics, so does Manitoba ; but as respects the other provinces, these statistics are to be procured at the federal expense. What will be the result ? The result will be that Ontario will say to this government, if you get this information at the expense of the Dominion for the other provinces while we have to pay for our own, we will drop our work, and you must pay for it the same as you do for the other provinces. All these things must be considered. The hon. gentleman brags about his census returns that he says he sent down to the printer so early that we will get it all in 1905, whereas the late government did not get their returns published till after 1897. He forgets to tell us the cost of the census of ten years ago, which was about half million dollars, and that of twenty years ago about $400,000, while his census up to the present time has cost about $1,200,000.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Mr. Chairman, I would like to inquire where we are. I understand that you reserved your decision on a point of order until to-morrow. Has it been decided that we shall proceed with the Bill before we get your decision as to the point of ol der ?


Charles Marcil: I understand that there was a kind of agreement entered into that the money clauses would not be taken up until the decision was rendered to-morrow.


George Taylor: And that we shall go on with the other clauses ?


Charles Marcil: Go on with the others, if there is no objection.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Clause 1 is a mere title clause, and that is generally left until the end. I would, therefore, ask you, Mr. Chairman, to proceed with clause 2.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Before you proceed with clause 2, I would like to have a little more information on this Bill, because it seems to me we are not going to realize what the hon. minister told the House we might expect to realize ; that is, by adopting this method suggested now we would materially reduce the cost of taking the census at each decennial period, and that we would get the census much more correctly taken than at the present time. In answer to a question, I understood the hon. minister to say that one of the ways in which this would be accomplished would be the education of certain parties to do the work. In order to ascertain whether that might be accomplished or not I inquired whether it was intended to educate the enumerators. I understood the hon. minister to say that it was not, that there were only certain parties in the office who would be working at the census from year to year between the ten-year periods. So that the parties, above all others, who, in my opinion, would require education to get the work correctly and expeditiously done- the enumerators-would not be touched by any provision of this Bill. I did not understand the hon. minister to say that they would be in any way touched.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No ; I do not think so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am unable to agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule). I would rather look upon a great deal of what he has brought forward as an endorsation of the objects of this Bill. He says, for instance, that there is certain information about labour, wages, &c., in the report of the Ontario Bureau of Mines, and we have also a labour bureau here which issues under the authority of the Dominion government-and I think that the publication of the ' Labour Gazette ' has been endorsed both by the House and the country-a compilation and statement of the condition of wages and labour in this country. Just as that report of the Labour Bureau is for the whole Dominion of Canada, while the report of the Bureau of Industries is for the province of Ontario alone, so the work that will be done under this Bill in regard to the several branches of industry referred to would be for the whole Dominion. The information to which the hon. gentleman referred is for the province of Ontario, but we want to get that information for the whole country. Then too, the report of the Bureau of Industry deals only with the agricultural and to a certain extent the mineral productions of the province, although the report of the Mr. SPROULE.
Bureau of Mines in Ontario gives certain information about the mining and mineral production in that province.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And the Geological Survey gives it for the whole Dominion.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The report of the Geological Survey does not deal very much with the actual production of minerals. The Geological Survey report is a report on scientific geological work more than on the production of minerals although it does deal with these figures to a certain extent. My hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) spoke of the returns of the Department of Inland Revenue. It is true that on certain lines the department gives a good deal of information in reference to articles connected with excise and taxation through excise, but it does not give the information about any other products, and the information which it does give us is with relation to the taxation more than with relation to the production. Incidentally it gives some statements' in regard to the products that enter into the production of liquor, cigarettes, &c., but still after all this is done in the Department of Inland Revenue with an eye to and in relation with the collection of revenue and not in connection with the products of industry.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: So long as the information is given what difference does it make what the connection is ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It gives that information and we would be able to make use of it for tabulated statements that might be drawn up in connection with the same subject, but not particularly with the production of revenue. My hon. friend will agree with me that the questions of tabulated statistics is practically interminable. It is possible to deal with a certain set of figures in many . different ways according to the object that the student for instance, may have in view. The figures collected by the Department of Inland Revenue are dealt with by that department for the purposes of the revenue, but that particular set of figures might not help the person wrho is studying the culture of barley for malting purposes. But still they would be identically the same figures in the original collection of information. My hon. friend says that certain labour statistics are collected by the provincial government of Ontario and certain other statistics of a different character altogether by the Inspectors of factories in the differont provinces, figures that are collected chiefly from a hygienic standpoint, having in view the safety of the operatives in factories, and yet these figures can be made use of in the reports of the Bureau of Labour here, and so collated as to show the condition of the workmen all over Canada. With the new system we will be able to furnish information on many subjects from a Dominion or national standpoint, using the information that is collected by the provincial auth-

orities ancl also that collected by various associations such as dairy associations which might collect various statistics in regard to the production of cheese and butter.


Richard Blain: Is Ontario the only province that collects agricultural statistics ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The province of Manitoba does a little, but not nearly so much as Ontario. I am not aware that any other province collects any.


Richard Blain: I see here in the statistical year-book a table of live stock in Manitoba, giving the value each year. For 1897, JB98, 1899 and 1900 there is a complete statement of the value of stock in the province of Manitoba. The hon. gentleman's Bill would not encroach upon that ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not so far as Manitoba is concerned.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that that information is published only for Ontario and Manitoba ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I know of no other. I do not think the hon. member will find it in regard to Quebec, the maritime provinces, British Columbia or the Territories, and the extent of agricultural information gathered in the province of Manitoba is not as great as that gathered in the province of Ontario. I have already referred to the point mentioned by my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule), and I rather take most of what he has said to be an endorsation of a good deal of what is in this Bill.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is not the interpretation that I intended to have put upon it. I said what I did because I have heard at different times almost the same line of reasoning with regard to other plans for collecting statistics. When we were asked to incur the expense of getting statistics for the Year-Book, we were told that it was for exactly the same purposes for which the hon. minister says we are now justified in incurring this expense. When it was proposed to have a monthly report from the Department of Trade and Commerce, we were told that it was in order to furnish statistics for the mercantile community. When the establishment of the Bureau of Labour was proposed, we were told that statistics were required from time to time to inform the wage earners of the country of the conditions of wages and labour, in different localities. The same argument has been put forward with regard to all these proposals, and the question that presented itself to my mind was whether we had not reached the limit of expenditure for the purpose of collecting and publishing statistics. The hon. minister says that figures can be arranged in a great variety of ways. I have no doubt that they can ; but is thaj: any justification for going on to devise other
ways of arranging them in order to spend | money ? I do not think it is.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If this Bill were going to repeat what has already (been done, my hon. friend's argument would be quite right ; but it is not. It is taking up work in other directions. The Trade and Com-| merce Reports, for instance, do not deal in any way with agriculture ; they deal only with trade and commerce, and with external commerce. They are compiled practically from the Trade and Navigation re-i turns, besides containing reports of our agents abroad. But they do not give any information about our home production. My hon. friend says this is exactly the argument that was put forward when the Year Book was established and when the Labour Bureau was proposed. I quite agree with my hon. friend. Parliament decided to establish the Year Book and the | Labour Bureau for specific purposes, and this Bill has a specific purpose in another direction. There is at present no provision for compiling the kind of information for the whole country that this Bill makes provision for. It is exactly on the same principle as the establishment of the Year Book and the Labour Bureau, and in that sense I venture to think that what my hon. friend has said is rather favourable to the principle of the Bill.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If I could see in what way it would benefit the country, I would be ready to support it, because I am in favour of correct statistics. The hon. minister does not propose to deal with all the products of the country at the same time, but he proposes to deal with one line in one year and with another line in another year. I do not see how that is going to be of any great benefit to the country at large. I could see how it might be of some use to ascertain all the products of the country over three or four years. The statistics must include everything, I think, to be of any great value. What I would like to understand is in what particular way this is going to benefit us ? What particular phase of it can we utilize, and thereby make more money ? We cannot follow the markets any more closely, we cannot diversify our pursuits any better, I take it.. If the information which we are getting from various sources to-day is as reliable as the proposed information will be, I do not see that it is going to be of much if any value. If I thought it was going to be an improvement, I would commend the establishment of a new system.


George Taylor: I would like to ask the hon. minister, from what class of the community has the demand come for this legislation ? Has it come from the manufacturers, from the merchants, from the labouring classes, from the farmers ? The only class that has made any demand, so far as

X can see. is some gentlemen who want positions varying from $4,000 a year down, for the purpose of compiling some statistics. I have listened to the hon. minister very attentively, and he has failed to answer the question propounded by my hon. friend from South Simcoe (Mr. Lennox), as to what value these statistics, when gathered, will be to the great tax-paying class of the country, the farmers. Are they making any demand for this legislation, and in what way is it going to benefit them ? The hon. minister has signally failed to answer that question. I understood the hon. minister to say that he wanted to gather for the whole Dominion such information as that published in the province of Ontario by the Bureau of Industries.
How is my hon. friend going to get this information from the maritime provinces and the province of Quebec ? Does he think he will get it by sending out circulars ? Will the parties to whom these circulars are sent tell him how many cheese factories there are in the proviuce of Quebec. In my opinion, in no other way can the information be gathered except through the municipal assessors. If you have a jirovince in which there are no assessments taken, yon cannot get the information unless you send out a staff of your own. All I can see in this Bill is to furnish the minster with a pretext for employing a staff a few weeks before the election and sending them out to find how many grit and tory votes there are in the various constituencies. The hon. gentleman tells us that he will send out schedules to the manufacturers and will have a law passed compelling the manufacturers to answer the questions contained in these schedules. But why did lie not compel them to do this in the last census ? Many of them replied to his questions by saying: It is none of your business. He wanted them to divulge the secrets of their business, to tell the public how much goods of a certain kind they manufactured, how much money was invested in their business, what wages they paid per day; and lots of manufacturers refused to answer. But even if he had these schedules filled up, what benefit would that be to the manufacturers generally ? I can see no benefit to any class of our community from this expenditure of $20,000 the first year and double that amount the next year. You certainly cannot gather the information the hon. minister requires, except by employing a staff in each municipality to go from house to house and collect it. I am confident that our farmers will see no advantage to them in any such expenditure. That will not make their land produce an extra bushel of wheat or a cheese factory turn out an extra pound of cheese. The hon. minister should answer the question put him by the hon. member for Simcoe (Mr. Lennox) and tell us what benefit these statistics will be to the farmers, when gathered, and also Mr. TAYLOR.
from what class of the community comes any demand for this legislation.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have had demands from all classes of the community and all parts of the country for the information we propose gathering.
Mr. TAYLOR, Will the hon. minister lay these demands on the table?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Surely the hon. gentleman does not want me to lay on the table the letters received by the department during the last ten years.


George Taylor: We will take one year.
iMr. FISHER. Those demands come in all shapes and forms. Sometimes they are for information we are able to give and frequently for information not at our command, In the second place, the demand has not come from anybody seeking positions. There has been no demand for this particular measure, but I am introducing it in order to meet demands for information which we have not now the, power or the machinery to collect. This measure is a consolidation of three Acts now on the statutes, and very little additional machinery or power is required to carry out the object I have in view. The three Acts are for three different purposes, and are here consolidated into one, which will cover the whole ground and add some necessary powers to make them complete. I have the power to-day, under the General Statistics Act, to app'oint agents all over the country to collect information, and have only to ask parliament to **ote the money. Under the Census Act. I have the power every ten years to appoint enumerators and make a census.


Mr. INGRAM.: Does the law give the hon .gentleman the right to take the census every six years in the Northwest?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, and we are extending that power to the new provinces which are to be created. The intention is to take one census between each decennial census for those new provinces just as we are required to do by the Manitoba Act for Manitoba.


George Taylor: But the five year census in Manitoba is simply to count the heads of the population for the purpose of ascertaining the amount that province is to receive per head.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, but this measure goes further and extends to the new provinces to be created in the Northwest Territories.


George Taylor: How is the hon. gentleman to get information from the other provinces which do not make a report as the Ontario Bureau of Industries does? When the office is fully equipped, how is he going to find out for instance, how many cheese factories tney have in New Brunswick, and

how many horses and cattle? How is he going to get it for the other provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These statistics for the province of Ontario to which my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) refers are gathered largely by correspondence-by sending out forms-;-


George Taylor: No, no.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend must not shake his head. These facts are not all taken from the assessors' returns by any means. Certain of them are, but not all. Some are secured by sending out circulars with questions and requests that the answers to these questions be given. There will be no difficulty in dealing with the subjects my hon. friend referred to in the case of such industries as the cheese and butter factories. That information, I know by experience-having tried to get it in individual instances and for particular localities-can be got perfectly well without an enumeration-it can be got in complete and accurate form. Similar information can be got in regard to other industries, just as it can folfactories or dairy products.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the hon. minister mean to say that the information for Ontario is got by sending out circulars ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I understand that a good deal of that information is got in the way I have outlined.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood the minister to say that he would issue circulars promiscuously and so get that information. But that is not the way the information is secured for the Ontario Bureau of Industries. That information is obtained from municipal officers, who report to the bureau in response to its circulars. How else, for instance, would the hon. Minister of Agriculture obtain the assessment of a municipality ? Will he take it on a report of some farmer ? He must get such information, if he gets it at all from the municipal officers. * And so all along the line, as described by the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule).


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If my hon. friend (Mr Ingram) will allow- me a moment ; He is right to a certain extent. The Bureau of Industries of Ontario publishes much information obtained from municipal officers. And the same kind of thing can be procured in the same way in the other provinces. In the province of Quebec there is a vast mass of municipal information available. I believe the same is true of some, if not all, the maritime provinces. This Act contemplates the collection of that information for these provinces in the same way that such information is collected in Ontario by the Bureau of Industries.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman's (Mr. Fisher's) department already obtains information in that w-ay. He sends out circulars
from time to time asking concerning the success or failure of certain crops, for Instance, and, on the strength of the replies to these circulars, he prepares a bulletin. But, the hon. gentleman, as we understand him, says he is going to establish a Bureau tof Industries for the whole Dominion for $35,000. The hon. gentleman can no more do that than the sun can shine at mid-night. This is simply the thin end of the wedge, and, in the course of a year or so, instead of $35,000, we shall find an expenditure of $135,000. Up to this time the difficulty that this House has had, and that the country has had, is that the statistical year-book is laid on the table and is distributed among the people far too late. And, when you inquire into the cause of this delay, you find it in the fact that the government has starved the statistical department it already has. Sufficient force is not employed to expedite matters and push the year-book out in good time. Yet, the hon. minister is establishing a department that will conflict with the department he' already has. Why not spend the money in improving the existing department instead of establishing another ? Coming from Ontario, and as a representative of Ontario, I do not see why we in that province who pay for collecting and publishing our own statistics, slioul%be called upon to assist in publishing statistics for the rest of the Dominion.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am sorry to have my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) say in effect, that, so long as Ontario gets certain information the people of Ontario do not care whether the test of the Dominion gets it or not.


Haughton Lennox: He did not say that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) thought that the information secured for the province of Ontario was sufficient for that province. I believe that a large number of people in Ontario, as well as in the rest of the Dominion, want to get the same kind of information about the whole Dominion as is now collected for Ontario- information concerning our national industries and productions. For that reason, I think, it is necessary that this work should be done under the Dominion government. Each province now- collects a certain amount of information. Ontario collects a great deal, Manitoba a certain amount, Nova Scotia, Quebec and the rest, a certain amount. But I Ije information gathered varies, the method of making up the tables varies. When the Dominion office is established and collects that information from provincial and local sources, through assessment rolls, reports of municipal secretary-treasurers or in any other way, it will be able to collate that information in tables covering the whole Dominion.- I am quite sure that the people of Ontario are as anxious to have that information as are those of any other part of the Dominion.



G71 COMMONS

Mr. LAKE.: I think the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) was scarcely fair to the Northwest Territories when he made the statement that agricultural statistics were collected only in the provinces of Ontario and Manitoba. For many years past the Department of Agriculture of the Northwest Territories has been collecting agricultural statistics, statistics which have proven accurate and which are of very great use not only to the farmers, but to all classes of the community. Especially have they been of use to us in making arrangements with the railway companies for carrying out our grain and in other matters of that character.


Mr. A. MARTIN.: I think this committee should be very slow to pass a measure such as that now under consideration. I do not think that the minister has shown that the information he proposes to collect will be of any great service to the country. And, in any case, it is clear that he cannot collect that information at the expense he proposes. Statistics about Canada, to be useful, must be had promptly. There is no use in having the facts about last years crop presented to us next year. To be of service those figures must be had within a month or two ; and surely the*gninister does not seriously tell this committee that he can accomplish the collection and publication of statistics on this basis for any such sum as he has named. From the experience we had in connection with the last census, I think the committee may well hesitate long before handing over to the disposal of the minister any sum as he suggests for the carrying out of the purposes of this measure.
The census taken five years ago shows,
I think, the need of this committee going slow in placing a large sum of money at the disposal of the hou. gentleman. I have here the Auditor General's Report for the year after the census was taken. I turn over a few leaves, and when I see how lavish the hon. gentleman has been in the expenditure of public money, I am astonished, and yet I know what it all means. For instance, take page D-143, and what will he find there ?	' Commissioner for the
county of Inverness, N.S., Mr. J. G. McRae, $289.67 ; overpayment, $150.' What became of that $150? $150 was paid to that commissioner over what he ought to have got. I was running an election in my riding at that time, and I know what every one of these appointments of commissioners meant, I know why this large expenditure of money became necessary. I would like to know whether there was an attempt made to recover that $150 from this man. In opening this book I have struck this account at random, but there is enough here to show that this committee had better go slow in voting money to be spent by the hon. gentleman. Have we any reason to suppose that this information which he is


Sydney Arthur Fisher: - going to collect will be forthcoming in time to be of any service to this country ? We have no assurance that it will be.


Haughton Lennox: Section 2 is a very important one, and I wish to call the attention of the minister to a question involved in the consideration of this clause.
In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the word * minister ' means the Minister of Agriculture, and the word ' office ' means the census and statistics office.
Well, this is an important question, it is important for us to consider whether the minister who administers this Act is to be the Minister of Agriculture. To make plain what I am aiming at, I will refer to a line in the next section.
There shall be a permanent office under the Minister of Agriculture to be called the census and statistical office.
Now, I say that the time has come in Canada when, having regard to the large amount of money invested by the farmers in their operations, we shall have a whole, able-bodied Minister of Agriculture all to ourselves. The Minister of Agriculture himself has dealt with this question. It may be that he had in view some other Minister of Agriculture, and he thought that it might be proper to divide him. But in this case, on behalf of the farmers of this country, I protest in ail seriousness against dividing our Minister of Agriculture. Mark Twain, I think it is, tells us about the cannibals of some south sea islands who, as showing their appreciation of the missionary, came out of a ' restaurant ' smacking their lips, and saying he was a good, tender missionary, and they wished they had more of him. So far as I am concerned, having regard to the fact that the Minister of Agriculture has in the past been so distracted from the concerns of the great producing class in this country, I think we should take this matter seriously in hand now, and that we should consider, not whe-tiiere we shall enlarge the duties of the Minister of Agriculture, hut whether we shall not insist, so far as we can in a parliamentary way, on having some gentleman to represent the agricultural interest of this country who will be content with the glories attaching to that office, without desiring to grasp a large measure of glory from some other source. Now, to show the position we are in in regard to agriculture, I will quote from the mouth of a witness that cannot be disputed, I will take the liberty of reading from a most authentic source. Take the 1st volume of the census of 1901, which according to the minister himself is as much ahead of any other census that has ever been compiled as the Bible is ahead of the Toronto ' Globe.' I presume no pains are spared there to point out the imperfections ot the former census and the perfection of the last one.

Provision has been made for the first' time in a Dominion census for collecting figures of farm values

This will be information to the public.

and it can be premised that the data obtained will present a striking confirmation of the greatness of our agricultural industry, and of the leading place it occupies in the development of national life.
That is what I claim for the agricultural interests of this country. We are told by Mr. Blue that agriculture represents an investment of 72 per cent of the entire investment of capital iu the Dominion of Canada. We find that out of a total population of 'Canada of 5,'371,315, the urban population was 2,021,397, while the rural population was 3,349,516. I took occasion nearly a year ago to point out to the Minister of Agriculture the importance of not having his time distracted from agricultural concerns by the multiple, and in some cases useless things dumped into his department; and perhaps I cannot do better than quote the hon. gentleman's own language which I find on the Hansard of last year, page 3736. We were discussing the manner in which the agricultural affairs of Canada were conducted by the Imperial Institute in Britain, and the minister said :
The Board of Trade in England is one of the departments of government that is something like the Department of Agriculture here.
That is his own comparison.
It has a large number of branches connected generally with trade and commerce, and I think it is a department where they put a lot of different things that they do not quite know what to do with.
It is something like the Department of Agriculture in this country. Patents, trade marks and various things have been put into the Department of Agriculture here, although they have nothing whatever to do with agriculture. The Board of Trade seems to be an omnibus department.
What I do say, and I hope I will have the serious consideration of the hon. Minister of Agriculture, is that it is time that we had a department devoted purely, to agricultural concerns, having regard to the enormous interests that are involved, and if it is said that the hon. Minister of Agriculture will not have enough to do if he devotes his attention solely to agriculture, I may say that he can well spend a portion of his time in listening to the farmers of this country discussing the various practical questions that arise, and that they will give enormous interests uiat are involved ; and him a large amount of practical and valuable information. Mr. Clancy, then in the House, said :
He tells us that it is under the Board of Trade, which is an omnibus department, a sort of receptacle for worthless articles-things which are not good enough to keep, hut which it is hard to throw away.
And the minister apparently concurred in that view. Then the member for South Sim-coe calls the hon. minister's attention to it in another way. He says :
I wish to speak to the Minister of Agriculture as a farmer talking to a farmer. I presume the bon. gentleman is a practical farmer, and to that extent there is a bond of sympathy between us.
Then, skipping a few lines :
I think it was the president of the Board of Trade with whom we had all the difficulty in regard to the embargo on Canadian cattle ; and therefore I think the Minister of Agriculture should have approached this proposition with a good deal of suspicion on behalf of the farmers of Canada.
That seems to be emphasized to-day, having regard to the position of matters, when we find an ex-Minister of Agriculture in the old country urging what is not exactly fair in the interest of the farming community of this country. Then it is pointed out that this department is like a department in England-


An hon. MEMBER.: No.


Haughton Lennox: I may not probably be ih the judgment of one, but one swallow does

not make a summer-I will, at all events, be in the judgment of the great tribunal to which I turn with very much more regard than to hon. gentlemen on the other side, I shall be in the judgment of the people of Canada when I demand on behalf of the agriculturists of this country that a new order of things shall be inaugurated, and that instead of distracting the attention of the minister from the great duties which should be his and which, I am sure, he is anxious to discharge,, he shall concentrate his attention solely upon agricultural questions.


Mr. WALSH.: May I say a word as representing an agricultural constituency ? I do not think I need bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) the condition in which agriculture, or the production of horses and cattle, is in my county, because I think he is perfectly well aware of it. If this information is to be collected in the same way the last census was taken, I must say, as representing that county, that I think we would be much better without it. The returns for agriculture have only been given some four years after the census is taken. If they were correct they were too late, but, as they were not correct, I can only hope that the people will look on them as ancient history, and that they will not judge our county according to the census as given. We have what we consider amongst the best farmers in the Dominion of Canada in our county, and we believe that our cattle are amongst the best, but the return given here would indicate that we are much behind our neighbours. I would like to read an article which shows that I am not speaking simply because I am in the House. I shall read this article from our local paper, a journal which, some years ago, members of the government appreciated very highly, although they may not appreciate it so highly now. I refer to the Huntingdon 1 Gleaner,' and the article that I would like to read is in regard to the last census. The date of his paper is 5th January, 1905. It says :
The census was taken in the spring of 1901 and we have only now the final volume, which relates to agriculture. Examination of the figures, we regret to say, shows they are not merely ancient history, but unreliable. The figures for dairy factories establish this. For instance we are assured there are no creameries in the county of Beauharnois (!), that there are twelve in Chateauguay, and eight in Huntingdon, and that Chateauguay sold nearly double the quantity of creamery butter that Huntingdon did. This is absurdly misleading. The figures for cheese are more approximately correct. The census declares six factories in Beauharnois made 364,000 lbs. of cheese, 14 in Chateauguay 1,112,000 lbs., and 19 in Huntingdon, 1,464,000 lbs. That the information here conveyed is erroneous can he shown in another way. The report declares there are 13,691 milch cows in Chateauguay and 18,489 in Huntingdon, yet the quantity of butter and cheese made by the two counties is about equal, the figures being : Mr. LENNOX.
Chateauguay 2,053,000 lbs., Huntingdon 2,084,000. Either the extra 4,798 cows with which Huntingdon is credited over Chateauguay must he what the Hon. Mr. Fisher terms ' robber cows,' or this census is not worth the paper it is printed od.
If that is a sample of the census we are going to get, I, on behalf of the agriculturists in the county of Huntingdon, object to this money being spent.


Charles Marcil: Shall the section be adopted ?


George Eulas Foster: We want an explanation of that Huntingdon business.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not in the position off-hand to explain a matter of that kind.
I can only say that a while ago my attention was drawn to another statement in the Huntingdon ' Gleaner ' which I did investigate, and which I found to be inaccurate according to the census returns and according to the facts. This statement- I have not seen before, but P will investigate it and report.


George Eulas Foster: I would imagine that according to the practical agreement we came to, the minister had better move that the committee rise.
Mr. FISHER, I hope that facility will be given to the consideration of the Bill clause by clause when we next go into committee.
Progress reported.



PACKING AND SALE OF CERTAIN COMMODITIES

[Stage Direction]
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, That it is expedient to amend the Act respecting the packing and sale of certain staple commodities, by inserting the following sections after section 4 :-
4a. When apples are packed in Canada for export for sale by the box they shall be packed in good and strong boxes of seasoned wood, the inside dimensions of which shall not be less than ten inches in depth, eleven inches in width and twenty inches in length, representing as near as possible two thousand two hundred cubic inches.
2. Every person who offers or exposes for sale, or vrho packs for export, apples by the box otherwise than in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section shall he liable, on summary conviction, to a penalty of twenty-five cents for each box of apples so offered or exposed for sale or packed.
4b. When apples are packed in boxes or barrels having trays or fillers wherein it is intended to have a separate compartment for each apple, then the provisions of sections 4 and 4a shall not apply.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Would the hon. minister explain the purpose of these resolutions ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say that the purpose is to introduce a Bill to define the size

of boxes for tlie packing of apples. We have under a clause of the Staple Commodities Act, Chap. 26, Edward VII, 1 An Act respecting the packing and sale of certain commodities,' provision for the size of barrels for apples. Of late years our export trade in apples has been turning towards the use of boxes instead of barrels. For some time there .was a considerable variety in the dimensions of the boxes used. A little over a year ago the fruit growers and exporters asked for a standard box. At that time resolutions were passed by the fruitgrowers' associations in the different provinces, adopting what is known as the British Columbia box, the size of which is given in this resolution and I think I am safe in saying that there was a practically unanimous expression of opinion that this size was the most convenient, the most suitable and the one that would meet the demands of all parts of the country most completely. The Bill simply provides for the adoption of this stanuard and it also provides that the standard shall not apply to boxes where what are called ' fillers ' or pasteboard partitions are included, because there is a trade in this country in very choice apples both for export and sale in Canada and these apples are put into boxes like egg boxes with pasteboard compartments all through. Such a box requires to be a little larger to contain the same amount of fruit as the other boxes and its dimensions would depend considerably upon the size of the fruit selected for packing in a certain box. Therfore these boxes are omitted from the provisions of the Act.


Andrew B. Ingram: I see that the hon. minister here deals only with boxes. Is it not a fact that some provinces have different sized apple barrels?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not to-day. The law fixes a standard size of apple barrels.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood that one province to-day ships in a barrel of a different size from the other provinces


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not since the passage of the Act of 1901, the Act we are now amending, chapter 26 of 1901, 'An Act respecting the Packing and Sale of certain standard commodities.' The size of apple barrels is determined by the provision of section 4 of that Act to which this amended clause is intended to be added. The dimensions of the minimum barrel represent as nearly as possible 96 quarts. That is the minimum size, they can use a large size if they choose.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is the point I am getting at; some do use larger barrels. There are two classes of barrels used; that is why I asked the question.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The amendment does not apply to barrels at all except that clause 4b, the last part of the resolution, says that [DOT]- 221
when apples are packed in boxes or barrels having trays or fillers, the provisions of this Act shall not apply.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: Would it not be better to have the barrels all of one size, to adopt a standard size for all Canada and make it compulsory?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The minimum size is fixed, and if people choose to use a larger barrel they will suffer a loss. Shippers are trying to get to the standard barrel as rapidly as they can. When the Act was passed, in 1901, it was thought best to leave the possibility of using a larger barrel if they chose, because at that time differnt sizes of barrels were used. Boxes, however, are not used to any very great extent and it is thought that a standard box can very soon be adopted.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Will the minister tell me to what extent boxes are being used for the exportation of apples to the old country?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I could not give the number of barrels or the quantity of apples exported in boxes but I may say that it is increasing from year to year very considerably. I am only making a guess but I am quite sure that not 10 per cent are sent in boxes. I doubt if 5 per cent of all the apples sent last season went in boxes.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Has the shipment of apples in boxes been satisfactory ? Have the apples been largely bruised ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think the trade in boxes has been very satisfactory. Apples shipped in boxes have as a rule returned better results than those shipped in barrels.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I understand that a few years ago in the United States, where the experience has been far greater than with us, a commission went thoroughly into the matter of box shipping versus barrel shipping, and reached the conclusion that the use of boxes was not satisfactory to the apple trade, and highly recommended barrels.
Mr. FISHER, That has not been the observation of our own fruit shippers at all, and in that respect I think we have not a great deal to learn from the United States.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: What particular call is there, then, from the people of Canada for the box to replace the barrel ?
Mr. FISHER, ft is not proposed to require the box to replace the barrel. Nobody is trying to force anybody to substitute the box for the barrel. We are simply providing a standard box for those who choose to ship in boxes.


John Barr: Will the hon. minister tell us which is the cheaper, the barrel or the box ? During last year it is a fact that barrels were very scarce.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no information on that point. The box as indicated in these dimensions has only one-third of the capacity of the standard barrel.


Mr. HENDERSON.: The hon. minister tells us that he is providing for a standard box. I do not so understand the resolution, because it does not provide for a box of a uniform size. If we are going to have a standard box, one which may be used for measurement, we ought to make it uniform. Tt would be more convenient for packing in railway cars and in steam vessels than boxes of all sizes. We have provided for a ,strawberry box of uniform size, and if apples are to be sold by the box, I would strongly advise the minister to require that all the boxes shall be of the same size, so that the matter will be clearly understood both by the buyer and the seller.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We are following in this proposed amendment the principle adopted in the law already in force in regard to the barrel, that is, that it shall not be less in size than a certain dimension.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In both cases I think there is this defect, that if you want to compare prices per barrel, the barrels ought to be all of the same size, and for the same reason the boxes ought to be all of the same size. Then people will know wliat the market is.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As a matter of fact, it is found that the shippers try to get the smallest barrel that will pass, and the same would probably be the case with regard to the box. If we provide positively that the box shall be of such and such measurement and no other, a person using a box a little larger than that measurement might be punished for an infraction of the law ; but if a person sees that the box is not smaller than the permissible size, he may use one a little larger if he chooses. It is thought that there should be that degree of elasticity and freedom in regard to the size of the box or barrel. 1 may say that the resolution of the Fruit Growers' Association asked that a minimum size of box should be made law.


Alexander Martin: The hon. minister has mentioned one fruit growers' association. There is more than one fruit growers' association in Canada, and unless a Bill of this nature is asked for by a large majority of the fruit growers' associations,. I would hesitate before giving it my support. One objection I have to it at first sight is that the size of the box is not uniform. However, I would rather trust the opinion of the fruit growers' associations in different parts of the country on this point, and if the minister could give us any information as to the number of associations he has corresponded with, and as to their opinions with regard to this measure, that would go some distance in enabling us to come to a conclusion with regard to it.


John Barr: 


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that these dimensions are the dimensions of the standard British Columbia box, which has been adopted after full discussion by the fruit growers' of that province, that the question was discussed by the Ontario Fruit Growers' Association, who passed a resolution endorsing and adopting that box, that that was followed by a resolution of the Nova Scotia Fruit Growers' Association and the Prince Edward Island Fruit Growers' Association, and that the details were worked out by the officers of my department at the request of the firuit growers' associations who desired to get a uniform standard.


Charles Marcil: I think the details of this measure had better be discussed in committee.


Mr. M. S. SCHELL.: I may say that I heartily appreciate the provision made in this Bill for a uniform box for the export of apples ; and in answer to my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) I may say that there will not be any difficulty about getting the shippers to use boxes of practically uniform size. When apples are sold by the box in Great Britain, each box will naturally be expected to contain about the same, quantity, and it will be in the interest of the shippers to use a box that will approach as nearly as possible to the size provided for in this Bill. Regarding tin; size that is suggested, my opinion, from experience in the handling of apples in boxes to a considerable extent, is that a better size would be a trifle shorter and a trifle wider, namely, twelve and a half inches wide by eighteen inches long rather than eleven by twenty. That would give practically the same space and contain the same quantity, and as near as possible represent a bushel. The boxes made in Unit way would be a little bit stronger with the same weight of lumber. In our experience of shipping in boxes, the desire is to get the lumber as light and also as strong as possible. I am not saying this so much in a spirit of criticism as for the purpose of giving my opinion after an experience in shipping many thousands of boxes, which I have done because I was unable to get sufficient barrels. We found that this size made a stronger and a better looking box and one in every respect more suitable than the size indicated in the Bill. Of course I know that the Fruit Grower's Association have suggested this size, which is largely owing to the fact of their having used this size, especially in the Niagara District. The firm which made this size of boxes sold them almost entirely in that district, and the shorter and wider box was not used there to any considerable extent, if at all. I merely throw this out as a suggestion, in case the hon. minister is not perfectly convinced that the size stated in the Bill is the right size. I think we should endeav-

our to have the best possible box because boxes are going to be used in the future much more than they were iu the past. The difficulty in getting barrels and their increased cost is becoming a very important factor in the export trade of apples, and I believe that the day is coming when the boxes will be much more largely used. As yet the trade in England, especially in Liverpool, seems to prefer the barrel, but on the other hand, Glasgow and Hamburg seem to be much more ready to accept the box ; and I may say that this last season we got decidedly the best returns from the boxes we exported to Glasgow. I think it would be advisable to have the dimensions varied a trifle because then the box will be stronger. It is hardly necessary that 1 should enter into an explanation why it is stronger except that the shorter box does not bulge at the sides or the bottom and top so readily. I must congratulate the minister on the outworking of the Fruit Marks Act. With regard to the minimum size of the barrel and the working out of the Act touching the handling and packing of the fruit and its quality, it was a step in the right direction.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee on the resolution.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it the intention to -make this provision regarding the boxes * apply to fruit for sale in this country as well as for export ? The section reads ' Expose for sale or for export.'


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The clause as printed here in the resolution was intended to cover the same point as section 4 with regard to barrels. In section 4 the wording is a little different, and my hon. colleague the Minister of Justice says he would interpret it to mean only when packed for export, but subsection is worded just the same as the resolution and what would apply to sales in Canada as well as for export.


George Eulas Foster: The minister does not intend to do that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not quite prepared to say. The resolutions, as passed by the Fruit Grower's Association were intended to apply to the sale in Canada as well as to the sales for export.


George Eulas Foster: That would be unjust.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: But I may say that the Act at present, so far as barrels are concerned, does not apply to sales in the country, but only for export. Under these circumstances, I think I must consider the matter asking the House to concur in that resolution.


George Eulas Foster: I should think the minister might say at once that he would amend it so that it would not be open to that construction. Surely the minister is not going to incorporate in the law a provision
which will prevent a farmer from taking apples in a box of any size or capacity up from his farm and selling them wherever he likes. What the minister means to say, I take it, is : Every person who offers for export, or who exposes for sale for export, or who packs for export, apples by the box otherwise than in accordance with the foregoing provisions.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Mr. A. A. WRIGHT.: I would like to say a word with reference to the packing in boxes and the shape of the boxes. As a retailer of thirty-two years experience, I think I ought to know something about the selling of apples. When you sell apples by the barrel you have a great deal more difficulty than when you sell them by the box, for two reasons :	Every consumer is not able to
buy a barrel, but there are few who would not buy a half barrel or box. Another thing is that when a man buys a barrel of apples and puts it in his cellar, if it is warm there, the result probably is that before the barrel is half used the apples spoil with the heat, or shrink and become practically valueless. If the apples are packed in a box, you have a better package to sell and to expose for sale. A's to the shape of the box, I think that the nearer you get to a cube the better. For example, everybody must have noticed and every retail dealer knows-that formerly we bought most of our oranges from Mediterranean countries. They were packed in boxes, but the boxes were of miserable quality and not of good size. But when oranges began to come from California, we found them to reach this market in boxes of fine quality and uniform size, and nearly square so that they presented a good appearance when the cover was taken off and the fruit exposed in the window or on the shelf. The trade in oranges and lemons from Mediterranean countries has become almost extinct in this market. If any one will notice as he walks along Sparks Street or Bank Street and passes the windows of the retail grocers, he will see that nearly every one of the boxes containing oranges bears the name of Stewart, a packer in California who has made a world-wide reputation in the sale of oranges. If the box is longer than it is broad, there is a partition which divides it into two compartments each nearly cubical in form. If you take a box of prunes that comes from Oregon or California you will see that the same method is followed. The boxes are good, the packing neat and nice, and every box, when the cover is taken off and the fruit exposed in the window or on the shelf, makes a good appearance. If you can get apples packed in boxes, the nearer you can approach this size and style of box the better for the retail trade, and I believe, for the packer and the grower also. And if you fix a minimum size, I do not think there is any danger of the packer making a larger box-he is not given to that kind of

thing. X would like to have it understood that a uniform size should be established and, if that is done, the box should be nearer square than oblong.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend opposite (Mr. Sproule) has drawn my attention to the wording of this clause and I feel that that wording must be changed. But I would not venture, at the moment to propose the exact change to be made, therefore I think it would be better to ask the committee to rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again so that at a future sitting, I can bring in the wording properly drawn up.


David Henderson: Before the motion is put, I would like to ask the minister when he will be likely to move the House again into committee on this resolution. Shall we have time to communicate with our constituents before that is done ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, I will not ask for committee again for a few days.
Progress reported.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIi moved the adjournment of the House.
George Eulas Foster: Will the hon. minister (Sir William Mulock) say what business we shall take up to-morrow ?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: To morrow is a private members' day.


George Eulas Foster: But, if we get through with private members' business ?


William Mulock: If we get through with that, we shall probably go into supply, and, in that case, take up the estimates of the Minister of Public Works. There will be no objection, I suppose, to making some progress ?


George Eulas Foster: On the same principle as the last day !


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at 9.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, February 8, 1905.