1905-06-15

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
['We will proceed with the estimates of the Public Works Department, to be followed by those of the Interior if time permits.']
Mr. FOSTER.: I have received a communication from the Toronto District Labour Council in reference to two matters. The first portion of it is in reference to the Alien Labour Act. The statement is made on behalf of the council that an officer was duly appointed when the Act was passed, that deportations were made from time to time on the report of that officer, that a request was then made for an extension to enable a private individual to take action in addition to any powers which the government bad, and an amendment was made. But the Dominion government, it is said, take the position that its powers to act are gone ns a result of the amendment, and that a conviction ought to be obtained at the suit of a private individual before it can order deportation. The council has always maintained the opposite view, namely, that the power of the government is intact, notwith-

standing the amendment made as I liave stated. Now, they contend that their view has been proved correct by the action the Dominion government has taken in ordering deportations upon the report of Judge Winchester in respect to aliens upon the Grand Trunk Pacific and recently in respect to the Pere Marquette employees or officials. They state that Judge Winchester, while making such an investigation, seemed to be acting practically as an alien labour officer, and that the evidence taken goes to prove that the Grand Trunk Railway Company, which has refused to honour the award of the arbitrators in favour of the Grand Trunk telegraphers, and the Canada Foundry Company are at present flagrantly violating the provisions of the Alien Labour Act.
Then they say that :
*Certain amendments were introduced by the government at the last session of the House of Commons that would have had the effect of making the Act something more than the farce it is at the present time.
And it is resolved by the council that the Dominion government be requested to appoint a commission to at once investigate the charges made by them against the Grand Trunk and the Canada Foundry Company of violating the Alien Labour Act.
There is a further resolution that:
This council further request, inasmuch as it has been publicly charged that the amendments of last session were introduced simply because a general election was then impending, and as the council, in union with the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, expressed its faith in the sincerity of the government in this regard, that the government reintroduce at the present session the amendments desired to make the working of the Act both expeditious and effective.
That is the case they set forth and that is the request that they have laid before the goverumeut. It is that, iu so far as the Alien Labour Act is concerned, a further investigation take place in reference to two of the charges that they have made, and that the government introduce again and pass this time the amendments which were introduced last session, but which, as 1 understand, were not passed. They think it is wise to do this, both in the interest of the government and in the interest of labour organizations. They seem to be anxious that the government shall demonstrate its good faith that these amendments, as introduced last year, were not introduced simply for a purpose before the general election, but were meant to become a part of the law, and that therefore they should be made part of the Act during the present session.
The second complaint which they wish to be preferred here is with reference to complications which they say have arisen in the old country, and which no doubt have arisen wherever certain classes of emigrants are induced or encouraged to come to Canada by certain agents, with the promise that ready employment will be found, and, going further, with actual recommendations to certain parties, and with the assertion that they will be employed immediately on their making application to them. In some cases I believe these agents have gone so far as to make a form of contract and give it to the emigrant, with the suggestion that it will be implemented as soon as he arrives at the proper place in this Dominion. They contend that Mr. Preston, who after some discussion of the subject gave over doing this, did it of his own accord as Dominion immigration agent, and that the matter is effectually done through the agency of one Leopold, who, it is alleged, has an office in the same building in which the Dominion immigration quarters are, or near by. They say that the modus operandi is that when applications are made to the Dominion officials there, they are sent with the parties making the applications to this man Leopold, and that consequently he is assisted in carrying out his part of the business under what seems to be the patronage or auspices of the Dominion authorities in the immigration office. They feel very strongly upon that point. As a result, either through Leopold or others following out the same plan-because they themselves make something out of it -they say that skilled immigrants have been sent over with these letters and these forms of contract, that they have come to different cities of Canada-to Toronto as one-and that, going to the persons to whom they have been directed, they have found neither any employment, contract nor any employment, and have been left stranded and at the mercy of circumstances ; and that there have been many cases of great hardship. They append and have sent to the government statements made by certain of these immigrants-among them Colin A. Gunn and William A. Moore-as corroboration of what I have said and of their charges. These statements, if true-and we have no reason to believe that they are not true-show a state of affairs which is very undesirable and very unfair to these skilled artisans themselves, and which ought to be remedied, so far as the government can do it. More especially I think it will be admitted that the government itself ought to keep free of any possible suspicion of a connection between its agents in London or in Europe, and these parties who act as employing ageneies, who get fees from these men, and who send them to a far-off and unknown country, where they are put at very great disadvantage in the way just stated? What they want is an immediate investigation into the charge which they have made in this respect. I do not see why that should not be granted. If the circumstances are as the Trades and Labour Council say they are. they have a grievance on behalf of their fellow workmen in Great

Britain and a grievance on behalf of their workmen in this country. I think I have done my part in presenting simply and solely their point of view at the present time, so that it may be before the House and the government. Any further discussion on the subject will be had after the government has made its statement, and it may have another side to it.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHES.: Mr. Speaker, in reply, first of all, to the hon. gentleman's statement in regard to the question of an amendment to the Alien Labour law, I may say that within the last few days, since the departure of the Minister of Labour (Sir William Mulock), the representations in question have reached the government, that they are under consideration, and that the action of the government will be announced in a short time. In regard to the other matter which my hon. friend has brought up, as to what are called immigration bureaus or offices in England, this matter was brought to the attention of the government more than a year ago. It was then gone into by the minister in charge, and the information was put before the country to a very large extent. I have in my hand at the moment the file in connection with this, and I may say that the condition of affairs is this. There is in the same building with the Canadian immigration office in London an office which is in the name of a certain Mr. Leopold. It has no connection whatever with the Canadian immigration office.


George Eulas Foster: Does the Canadian immigration office occupy the Whole building?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, it does not. This gentleman, with some others, occupy some offices in the same building.


George Eulas Foster: We rent simply a part of a building?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We rent a part of a building, and this gentleman is a tenant of the same proprietor. The Canadian office is on the ground floor. I do not know whether it occupies any other portion than the ground floor-.
Mx-. FOSTER. It goes below the ground floor.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: But this gentleman apparently occupies a portion of an upper floor. The accusation is that immigrants applying to the Canadian office are referred to him. Now, the Canadian officers have direct instructions from the department here that the class of immigrants they are to encourage to come to this country are agricultural labourers, people wishing to go on the land, and domestic servants ; and when other people come for information, they are not in any way encouraged to emigrate to this country. Those people sometimes insist on getting information, and on certain occasions apparently some of them have askrd where they could get the information, Mr. FOSTER.
and I think probably some time ago, not recently, officers in the Canadian office did say to them, ' You can get information on that point at Mr. Leopold's office.' More than this does not seem to have been in any way established as to anything suggesting that people should go to Mr. Leopold's office. There is, however, one letter on the file, in which a certain person applied to Mr. Preston personally, saying that he had had communications with Mr. Leopold's office, and he wished to know what its standing was ; and Mr. Preston's reply acknowledged his letter, and stated that he believed that Mr. Leopold's office was an office of good standing, and was able to carry out anylhing that it undertook to do. So far as I have examined the files, I see that there is no other proof of connection of any kind whatever between Mr. Preston or any other officer of the Canadian immigration office and this Mr. Leopold. In consequence of sim-iar representations being made last year, Mr. Smart, then deputy minister who'was in England, published in the British press a warning to the people, and that warning was also published in the 'Canadian Labour Gazette.' It was as follows :
The government of the Dominion of Canada have been informed that certain persons conducting labour agencies in London and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, have been promoting the emigration to Canada of mechanics and other skilled workmen ; have been giving false information respecting labour conditions in Canada, and have represented themselves as agents of, or as having the sanction and endorsement of the Dominion government ; notice is hereby given that the Dominion of Canada has no such agents in the United Kingdom, has not authorized, sanctioned or in any way given its approval to any agency in the United Kingdom for promoting the emigration to Canada of mechanic or other skilled labour.
(Sgd.) JAMES A. SMART,
Deputy Minister of the Interior of Canada.
This was a positive announcement that the Dominion government had no connection with these different agencies. It came to Mr. Preston's knowledge that he was accused of being in league or in collusion with this Mr. Leopold, and Mr. Smart discussed the question with Mr. Preston and he reported to the minister that the Canadian government had no means by which they could interfere with Mr. Leopold's occupation of the office as he held it under lease and was paying his rent. Mr. Smart seems to have had an interview with Mr. Leopold and to have investigated his business to some extent, and Mr. Smart reported apparently that nothing could be found which would go to throw discredit on the business. At the same time it was evident from circulars which had been issued by Mr. Leopold and probably by other agencies of a similar character, that representations with regard to the labour conditions in Canada were made to the English people, which the facts would hardly justify.


Mr. URIAH WILSON.: Is this office of Mr. Leopold's over the flat which is occupied by Mr. Preston for the Canadian Emigration Department ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is in the same building.


Uriah Wilson: Within the last four or five months Mr. Preston has received instructions to report to the High Commissioner instead of reporting direct to the department here; has this business which he was apparently mixed up in had anything to do with that ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Nothing whatever. I am informed by the emigration branch that this auestion has not been discussed lately at all* In consequence of the action of Mr. Smart last year and of the categorical statements of Mr. Preston to the minister that he had absolutely no connection, personally, pecuniarily, or in any other way with Mr. Leopold's business or office, the minister seems to have decided that nothing further could be done in the matter at the time, and nothing has arisen since which required any other action. The proprietor of the building leases the office to the Department of the Interior just as he leases an office to Mr. Leopold, and although this government would be powerless to deal with Mr. Leopold's lease or occupation, apparently Mr. Smart did try last year to see if Mr. Leopold's presence could not be got rid of, but he failed in the attempt. Mr. Preston denied explicitly any connection with Mr. Leopold, and he went so far as to say that he had even tried to see whether Mr. Leopold could be induced to leave the office but without success. In addition to the advertisement published in English newspapers by Mr. Smart, and which 1 have read, he also made representations to the Colonial office :
That designing persons were apparently making use of bona fide emigration movement to Canada for the purpose of defrauding and deceiving people in the United Kingdom, and sending them to Canada under false representations, and that the Colonial Office were asked to communicate the substance of this despatch to the Home Office, with a request that steps be taken to prevent the continuance and recurrence of these frauds.
These representations were made to the Colonial office with the view of seeing if the authorities in England could put any machinery in motion to prevent these false representations. I think it will be seen that the Interior Department is absolutely cleared of any disregard or neglect In this matter, and I think it is also clearly shown that there is no connection officially or personally of any kind between the department or its officers and this particular agency or any other of these agencies in Great Britain. It is undoubtedly unfortunate that an agency of this kind should have offices in the same building as our Canadian
offices, and no doubt that fact may frequently give them an advantage and may result in inquiries, instead of going to the Canadian emigration office, getting into the wrong hands and false information supplied.


Uriah Wilson: Did I understand the minister to say that they had distributed Canadian government literature from Leopold's office ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is nothing to indicate that.


Mr. BARR.: How long has Leopold's office been in the same building with the Canadian emigration office ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It was there in June, 1904, and it probably has been there for a year and a half, or may he longer.


Mr. A. C. MACDONELL.: Would the minister lay this correspondence to which he has referred on the table of the House ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I see no objection ; it will have to be copied of course.


Angus Claude Macdonell: This matter was brought before the House last session and the facts were gone into very much as-they have been gone into to-day by Mr. Puttee, then member for Winnipeg, and by the late Mr. Clarke, member for West Toronto. On that occasion especially the minister seemed to have been actuated by a desire to find out if possible some connection between the officers In the government department in London and the Leopold people. Let me quote from the debate last year, page 7330 of ' Hansard ' :


Mr. CLARKE.: Is the minister aware that the officers of his department send men up stairs to this man to hook their passages ?


Mr. SIFTON.: I do not think that is the ease. If my hon. friend has any information to that effect, I would be very much indebted to him if he would send it to me, and I will promise, if he so desires, to regard the source from which it comes as confidential. The instructions which I have given have been most explicit,- and there can be no possible excuse for any officer of the department, either directly or indirectly, in any shape, form or manner, being connected with or encouraging the traffic these people are carrying on.
The matter seemed to have rested there on that occasion, and in the correspondence to which the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) has referred we find statements bv two men, presumably first-class mechanics. One of them, Colin A. Gunn on the 16th May, said :
We went to the emigration office. They told me they could not guarantee work for machinists, but there was a man up stairs who would do so. That was Leopold.
Mr. Gunn is speaking of an interview he had at the government offices in London. He says he was instructed to go upstairs

and interview Mr. Leopold. Then there is the statement of Mr. William A. Moore, of the 15th May, 1905, in which he says :
We asked for Mr. Preston, the commissioner of emigration for Canada, but he was too busy to see us. However, one of his numerous staff plied us with questions, and when we stated our occupation, he said : Well, we do not cater for men of your particular craft, we are only interested in farming, but we have a gentleman up stairs who will give you all the information you require. He then called the office boy and told him to see if Mr. Leopold was in his office. We saw Leopold.
These are statements made by persons who saw Mr. Leopold and who came to this country as the result of their interview. In pursuance of the policy declared by the ex-Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) it is only right the government should have an investigation into these matters.
Department of Labour-printing and stationery, including printing of ' Labour Gazette,' allowances to correspondents, administration of Conciliation Act, Railway Labour Disputes Act travelling-expenses, &c., and $500 each for an accountant and French translator, which sum may be paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Aot, $29,900.


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: This is required to meet the general expenses of the Department of Labour for the year 1905. It is less than it was m the previous year-$7,000 less.


Mr. BERGERON.: What are the attributions of this new office ?


Mr EMJIERSON.: It covers the 'Labour Gazette and the Conciliation Act.
,,,BLAIN. What is the circulation of the Labour Gazette ' ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: About 10,000.


Mr. INGRAM.: What was it during the London election ? I understand there was an extra issue for that election.	'


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, there was not.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then there was an extra circulation. What was the object of it ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There was not even any extra circulation.


Andrew B. Ingram: Some persons received them by the half dozen rolls.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That does not prove there was an extra edition.


Andrew B. Ingram: It proves there was an extra circulation.


Henry Robert Emmerson: If there was, the deputy minister knows nothing about it.
out of which the government were endeavouring to make political capital. The object of the circulation was to influence the electors, although we were given to understand that the Labour Department is non-partisan.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is nothing in the 1 Gazette ' that could improperly influence an elector. It gives simply a statement of facts, and no expression of opinion. No addition has been made whatever to its circulation but it may be that private parties secured copies and mailed them.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Where is it printed ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: At the King's printing office.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: Then what we pay for printing goes to the Bureau ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What has been the result in the way of conciliation ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Upwards of tliirtv-five of the largest strikes in Canada were settled during tlie operation of that Act.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: In spite of the interference of tlie Labour Bureau ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: It has done a very excellent work, and this is recognized throughout the country.


Mr. BLAIN.: How is the 'Labour Gazette' sent out ? I understand, of course, that a large circulation is sent out to members of parliament, public libraries and so on, but I would like a detailed statement as to the circulation and at the same time I think the minister should clear up the statement of the member for East Elgin that to his own personal knowledge half a dozen rolled-up copies of this gazette were sent to private individuals during the recent election in London.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The ' Gazette ' can be purchased at 3 cents a copy. It is possible for any one to order a dozen or half dozen or more copies. The same edition is being published as prevailed during the past year, there have been no extra copies issued nor any special circulation from the department. The total circulation is about
10,000	; there are about 7,000 paid subscriptions and there are 3,000 copies for distribution to boards of trade, labour organizations, members of parliament and the public libraries and newspapers of the country.


Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron: What is the subscription ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: 20 cents a year.


Andrew B. Ingram: I know that there were r0iSt,0f lla.If a dozeu circulated in London, and the object evidently was to cover a point under discussion in that election, namely, Ii 6 Sen *a'30Ur difficulties that occurred on the Pere Marquette Railway at St. Thomas.


Angus Claude Macdonell: 


Richard Blain: Perhaps the miuister would give a list of the correspondents of the ' Gazette ' and the manner of their selection and appointment.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I fear my friend does not read the copies that are sent to him,

because this information is furnished in -each issue of the paper. They have a correspondent in every city, practically in Canada.


Richard Blain: I am asking how these are selected ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: By the Labour Bureau ; they are paid $100 a year. The names are contained in each number of the ' Gazette ' and are as follows :
Sydney, Nova Scotia, John Moffatt ; Halifax, Nova Scotia, F. W. Smith ; Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, J. F. Nash ; St. John, New Brunswick, W. H. Coates ; Quebec, E. Little and P. J. Jobin ; Sherbrooke, Quebec, H. Loggie ; Three Rivers, Quebec, John Ryan, sr.; St. Hyacinthe, Quebec, Victor Phaneuf ; Montreal, Quebec, Gustave Audet and T. J. Griffith ; Hull, Quebec, Rudolph Laferriere ; Ottawa, T. W. Quayle ; Kingston, Wm. Kelly ; Belleville. H. C. McDiarmid ; Peterborough, W. J. Johnston ; Toronto, Phillips Thompson ; Niagara Falls, Ernest Green; St. Catharines, James >
Wiley ; Hamilton, S. Landers ; Brantford, J. C. Watt ; Guelph, O. R. Wallace ; Berlin, Harry Peters ; Stratford, Joseph C. Carlin ; London, A. Woonton ; St. Thomas, A. Roberts ; Chatham, John R. Snell ; Windsor, D. Mitchell ; Sault St. Marie, Edward Barry ; Winnipeg, .T. A. Appleton ; Brandon, S. P. Springer ; Calgary, J. Gillespie ; Nelson, A. B. Docksteater ; New Westminster, J. George Hargreaves ; Victoria, British Columbia, J. D. McNiven ; Nanaimo, A. E. H. Spencer.
There are 38 correspondents In all.


Mr. DANIEL.: What are the qualifications required of the correspondents Are they members of labour organizations or working men or on what ground are they appointed ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: They are men in the first place who have some literary ability who are capable of furnishing correspondence. They must of necessity be familiar with the industrial conditions prevailing in their districts ; they must also have the confidence of the employers as well as of the employees, that is to say those who are hiring and those who are hired.


Andrew B. Ingram: The minister seems to repudiate the idea that this is a partisan gazette. This department is partisan. I can state why these copies of the ' Gazette ' were circulated in London. We had an election there and the success of the Liberal candidate on that occasion largely hinged on bow tlie labour vote could be swung in his favour. I find here a letter from the Hon. Mr. Hyman to the Postmaster General and Minister of Labour calling his attention to the fact that a certain railway company in that district were importing aliens from the other side and urging upon the department the necessity of taking action and having these aliens removed. What did the government do then ? They employed a gentleman named Marks to go to St. Thomas and inquire into the difficulty brought about there by the importation of
these aliens. Then Judge Winchester was appointed as commissioner. He went there, made inquiries and through the inquiries and the report which he made these officers were ordered to leave the country, some of them within 24 hours, others within 7 days and others forthwith. The purchasing agent of the Pfire Marquette Railway left and went back to Detroit aud the next day we find Mr. Marks, Who is supposed to be a leading and shining light in the labour movement, employed by the government to assist the commissioner in his duties in investigating the difficulties in connection with these alien labourers.
Next we find this Mr. Marks, who is supposed to be a labour leader, wbo is supposed to be engaged by the ' Labour Gazette,' performing duties for labour, we find him charging the Conservative candidate with being an enemy to labour. Mr. Marks prepares an affidavit in which he charges that the Conservative candidate is an opponent of labour, and as a result of that charge the labour men of the city of London were requested not to vote for the Conservative candidate blit to vote for tbeir true friend, Mr. Hyman, who is said to be the friend of labour in the city of London. Now in an ordinary sense that is all right enough in a political campaign, and I have no objection to it ; but when this non-partisan Labour Department lends a hand and takes part in a political contest, then the sooner it ceases to declare itself non-partisan the better it will be for the labour interests of this country. That is the charge I make, and it is perfectly true. Why did Mr. Marks, in the ' Labour Gazette,' take part in the political discussion, take a partisan part in this election, charging the Conservative candidate with things of which it was positively proven he was not guilty ? If the Liberal party in the city of London chose to take that stand I have no fault to find, the Liberal party has a right to take whatever line in the contest they chose ; but wlieu the ' Labour Gazette and the Labour Department take a band in a political contest, then they must not come down to parliament and pretend to be a nonpartisan department.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Mr. Marks is in no way connected with the ' Labour Gazette,' he is in no sense connected with the Department of Labour. Long before tlie recent election in London, in fact some time before the deatli of the late lamented Mr. Sutherland, Mr. Marks was appointed to hold a certain investigation. He is editor of the ' Industrial Banner,' is a very capable man. familiar with the industrial conditions, and because of bis qualifications lie was selected by the department to bold an investigation. Now that investigation was held before the vacancy in Loudon, or before a vacancy could be anticipated ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Not at all.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) will not say that the investigation was not held previous to the election altogether.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman said this was done before the election was anticipated. There is not a member in this House who does not know perfectly well that for the whole of last year an election was anticipated in the city of London.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Mail the hon. gentleman give me the date of that letter of Mr. Hyman.


Andrew B. Ingram: 2nd of March.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Now there could not have been any preconcerted action on the part of Mr. Hyman or anybody else ; this investigation was not organized and entered upon in anticipation of any possible election in London. I think my hon. friends are straining overmuch in endeavouring to show that.


Mr. BARKER.: Does the minister tell us that there was no anticipation on the part of the government in March last that there would be an election in London ? Does he assert that as a fact ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The point is this : The action that was taken was not and could not be in anticipation of any possible election. True, there might be an election in the distant future ; but investigations are not held simply with a view of influencing some election that may 'possibly arise in the future. Now the question is : Was the action taken proper ? Did not the facts revealed by that investigation justify the department in holding it ? All that -there is revealed by the ' Labour Gazette ' is a calm statement of the facts, given simply for information, with no expression of opinion, no argument of the ease, simply a bald statement of what had transpired. And surely that is proper, surely it was proper in that paper to record those facts and to give the people interested in such matters all that information. It appears there.


Samuel Barker: It never appeared in March.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Because the investigation had not been held then. It came on in the regular way ; this report in the paper appeared in its natural order, and as soon as it could be prepared. It may be a coincidence with tlie election, but certainly nothing can be twisted in any shape (o show that there was a preconcerted action on the part of any one with a view to affecting the election. Surely the hon. gentleman will not say that the mere statement of facts affected the election. I venture to say 10 inj hon. friend that there is no statement in that Gazette ' to which he can properly take exception. -


Andrew B. Ingram: *


Andrew B. Ingram: 
Henry Robert Emmerson: It naturally came in this month's ' Gazette.'


Andrew B. Ingram: And it was naturally circulated among the workingmen of London. Now, I want to point out the fact that there was an alien employed in the city of London by this railway company, and that one alien was ordered to leave the country forthwith, and he did leave and went to Detroit. But the other aliens were employed in St. Thomas and west of St. Thomas. Mr. Hyman was advised, no doubt, to take this action, and I presume that he did so for political purposes. I am not finding fault with him for that. That is not the phase of the question that I am finding fault wdth. Mr. Hyman had a perfect right if he felt disposed to do so. I do not quarrel with him or with the department for that, but what I am quarrelling with the department for is that they employed Mr. Marks, vvho is the editor of a labour paper called the ' Industrial Banner.' They had a perfect
c
7517 JUNE 15. 1905 7518	
right to employ Mr. Marks if they chose in a non-partisan way. Mr. Marks was instructed to assist the commissioner in making this inquiry, but the Labour Department had no right to allow Mr. Hyman or anybody else to make use of this non-partisan official for the purpose of carrying the London election. Would the Deputy Minister of Labour take part on the political stump ! Dare he do it and come down to this House and say that the department is not a partisan department ? The government have claimed that this is a non-partisan department, and it is on the strength of being a ron-partisan department that they have sought credit for themselves for having established and carried on that department, but the government used a non-partisan officer connected with a non-partisan department for the purpose of carrying the London election. That, in a nut-shell, is wlmt I am complaining of. I want to tell the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals, the hon Minister of Labour and the Deputy Minister of Labour that they cannot go to tiie city of London and say to the labour men that they are conducting a non-partisan department after the shameful conduct of that department" in the London election. More than that, I want to refer the hon. gentleman to the fact that in the very district in which the workingmen of the city of London are employed they had more faith in this man who was charged with being against the interests of labour than they had in Mr. Hyman, and, as a result, the people there polled their votes in favour of Mr. Gray, who was their candidate on this particular occasion. Therefore, the intrigue that was attempted did not . succeed in so far as humbugging the workingmen of London was concerned. I have never on any occasion charged the Department of Labour with being a partisan department, but in view of what took place in London in the recent election I think words cannot be used too strongly to show that the department is not the non-partisan department that it has claimed to be. Mr. BMMERSON. I think my hon. friend, in his remarks, has been indulging in too violent language in connection with the facts presented. He is relying upon violence of language and upon a very fervid imagination. It is very easy to make the assertion against the department that it is partisan, that it is run in the interest of a political party, but I will put it fairly to my hon. friend : Has he demonstrated one single fact that would in any way prove that assertion ? I venture to assert that he has not. In the first instance, this gentle man, Mr. Marks, before any election is in sight, before it might properly be anticfr pated, is called upon to hold a certain in vestigation. He is qualified. He holds a very responsible position. He has the confi dence of the labouring element, and has the	confidence of those who are interested in the industrial life of that city. He is chosen to hold this investigation, he does so, and he does it well apparently. An investigation is held, the facts are brought out and these facts justify the investigation. In the first place, it is brought to the notice of the department that there are questions that should be investigated. They do not rush headlong into it. They simply hold an ex-parte inquiry ; they satisfy themselves that an investigation is necessary, and thereupon they hold an investigation. Mr. Marks, having concluded that investigation, and having made his report to the department, discharges his duty. He is no longer a servant of the government. He is not in any way connected with the department by virtue of his appointment to that position. He is selected to act in a judicial way. He performs his part, and his connection with the department ceases. Anything that transpired since then is simply a matter of individual responsibility on the part of Mr. Marks. Any action he has taken is the action that any free citizen of this country is justified in taking if lie so cliooses, and I am sure the reflections of my hon. friend are entirely unwarranted in so far as he has produced any facts. He has certainly not produced a scintilla of evidence to show that the department should be condemned for its action in this matter. There was an alien in London. He received his notice the same as the others. He voluntarily and ot his own motion left. There was no action taken as against him that was not taken against the others. That gentleman left voluntarily when he need not have done so. He could 'have taken the attitude taken by some others who were in a like situation. Perhaps it is too near the result of tlie election to condemn my hon. friend for his very strong language. There is some justifies- -tion for it. It is merely a coincidence that there was an election. The machinery was put in motion long before that. It was put in motion because there was a necessity tor it. It went through in the regular ordei, and the facts were published in the ' Labour Gazette ' There can be no reflection cast upon the ' Gazette ' for doing that. The labour element in London wanted tne information. It was important that they should have it. Any action of Mr. Hyman in connection with the matter shows that he simply performed the part of a prudent ie-nresentative of the city. He brings to the attention of the Minister of Labour certain facts that are alleged. That is done on the ond March. The department, without-hastily Tumping to a conclusion in the matter, without plunging into it, inquired, and finally, on the 31st March, the Department of Labour takes action in respect to the investigation, which seems to have been justified by all the facts disclosed. This was an investigation for which, I think, the department should receive credit, and an m-

vestigation that lias certainly reflected some credit upon the gentleman, Mr. Marks, who was engaged in it.


Andrew B. Ingram: My hon. friend seems to be a little vague on this question. If I did use very strong language, evidently it did not seem to strike him as being very serious.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I forgive you.
air. INGRAM. At the general election in November this air. Marks seems to have let tlie Conservative candidate, air. Gray pass without objection. But when air. aiarks was employed by this non-partisan Department of Labour-and I would like to impress this non-partisanship on the minister and the deputy' minister-air. aiarks had to do some-tiling for his money. He was sent down to St. Thomas to investigate and report, and then he was called in to assist Judge Winchester to make an inquiry and air. aiarks had to make some return to this non-partisan department, and so he made this affidavit:
I, Joseph T. Marks, of the city of London, in the county of Middlesex, editor, do solemnly declare that during the recent street railway trouble I made a visit to the London Old Boys' Association in Sit. Thomas as the official representative of the London Trades and Labour Council and the Street Railway Mens' Union.
That I went there with the object of securing their sympathy and to induce them to refrain from going to iSpriagbank. I used every argument in my power to plead the cause of the men who toad the active sympathy of the majority of the citizens of London. At that meeting Mr. William Gray, the present Conservative candidate, was present although not a member of the St. Thomas association, and he used every argument in his power to have the St. Thomas association go to Springbank.
He stated that but for a few interested agitators the strike would have been settled long ago. and that I was a curse to the city of London. For nearly two hours there was a very heated controversy between Mr. Gray and myself. and a great deal was said that would take up too much space to repeat here.
There were members of trade unions present at said meeting who can also testify if necessary to the truth of the above statement.
- remarkable feature of this whole thing isthatwhat Mr. Marks complains of in this affidavit seems to have occurred five years ago, and it is peculiar that Mr. Marks would seem to have forgotten it at the general election, and to have remembered it at the last by-election. The truth is that Mr. Hv-man discovered oil the 3rd of November that Mr. Gray was the friend of labour men and got the labour vote, and then Mr. Marks the employee of this non-partisan department put his brains to work to see if he could not nnd something which would depreciate Mr. W*y the eyes of the workingmen of London. That was the sole and only object .of his so-called non-partisan department em-1 ymg Mr. Marks to do this non-partisan woik i charge that against the Department of Labour, and I say that if this non-partisan Mr. EMMERSON.
department should commit a few more acts like this the sooner the workingmen of Canada realize that they are contributing to a partisan Department of Labour the better it will be for them. Let me give you another sample. There is in St. Thomas a good honest Liberal, but a mighty independent one, who for years has voted as he thought his conscience required him to do. I refer to Mr. Roberts, who acted as correspondent for this ' Labour Gazette ' and who was dismissed. Why ? He was dismissed because he refused to vote for the Liberal candidate ; he reserved liis right as an independent Liberal and workingman to vote for the candidate of his choice, and as a result Mr. Roberts, who was a good, honest, and highly respected citizen of St. Thomas, was removed and Mr. Killingsworth, a very active partisan. was put in liis place. Every workingman in the city of St. Thomas, Liberal and Conservative alike, knows that my statement is correct. Mr. Roberts was removed because he was acting in a non-partisan spirit, and this flon-partisan department discharged him and put an active Liberal worker in his place. I have no objection to an out and out Liberal fighting the Conservative party if he wants to, but if lie does so I object to his putting on the cloak of non-partisanstitp, and I object to have this supposedly non-partisan department coming to the House and telling us that they are conducting the Labour Department in a non-partisan way.


Mr. A. JOHNSTON.: Did I understand the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) to say that this Mr. Marks was in the employ of the Labour Department when lie made that affidavit ?


Andrew B. Ingram: He was in tlie employ of the Labour Department when he made these investigations, and this whole matter was arranged, cut and dried at the time.


Alexander Johnston: Does my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) state that when Mr. Marks took the action he did in the recent election, he was in the employ of the Labour Department in any sense whatever ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I am not in the confidence of that non-partisan department : I do not know whether he was or not.


Alexander Johnston: My hon. friend seems to have no information on that jioint ; if I say that Mi'. Marks was not in the employ of the Labour Department would he dispute that assertion ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I say positively that Mr. Marks was in the service of the Labour Department and performed work for that department, for which I presume he was well paid.


Alexander Johnston: I would remind my hon. friend that I could tell of a personal grievance which I might have against the Department of Labour if I were thin skinned enough to notice it. I could point out that employees of the Labour Department and

men employed on the ' Labour Gazette ' tools a very active part in the last election in opposition to some of the government candidates. My hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) has singled out one instance, although he is not able to verify it, and perhaps when the whole story is told it may be revealed that this man was not at the time in the employ of the Labour Department.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am very thankful to my hon. friend (Mr. A. Johnston) for proving my argument. He has cited another case in which a partisan employee of this nonpartisan department took a partisan part. If the minister and the deputy minister do not pay attention to what I have said, I trust they will believe their own supporter that they have partisan employees, and the sooner they get rid of them the better.


Alexander Johnston: Will my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) name one single partisan employee of the Labour Department ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, sir, I will. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Johnston) has named one, and I can state that there is a partisan employee in my own city.


Alexander Johnston: I made no charge whatever. I have absolutely no complaint to make. I am perfectly satisfied with the course he took. He took the course of an independent man who differed with me, and up to this moment I have never expressed any difference of opinion with him; I never brought it to the notice of anybody, and I state most positively that I have no fault to find with the attitude he assumed on that occasion.


Richard Blain: In respect to this being a question of partisanship, I rather think my hon. friend has made out a very good case. The hon. minister does not just see it in that way, and we are sorry for him. A letter comes to the minister with reference to some people employed on the Pere Marquette Railway, and what happens after the letter arrives ? Here is the statement of the ' Labour Gazette ' :
Upon the receipt of the Hon. Mr. Hyman's communication, the hon. the Minister of Labour appointed Mr. Joseph T. Marks, the editor of the ' Industrial Banner ', of London, Ontario, to inquire into the matter and prepare a confidential report for the consideration of the government.
This is a communication to the government from one of its own members. Another member of the government appoints a partisan to investigate the matter.
(Mr. EMMERSON. Who is the partisan ?


Richard Blain: Mr. Marks, who just the other day took an active part in the London election. What then happened ? On the same page I read this :
Mr. Alfred 0. Jefferys, K.C., of London, Ontario, was appointed counsel to represent the government of Canada for the commission, and the commissioner was required to report his findings to the Minister of Labour with all possible despatch. Mr. Marks was retained to assist the commissioner and the government counsel during the inquiry.
Here is another strong partisan, an active Liberal of the city of London, appointed to take care of the government's interests. That is the way it goes. It is a well known fact that that investigation was made by active partisans ; there is no question about that; the minister will not deny it. In reference to the question whether these correspondents are politicians or not, it would be useless for me to occupy the time of the House in giving many instances. Let me give the minister one. The correspondent in the city of Belleville receiving .$100 a year from the government is Mr. McDiar-mid, a strong and active partisan, a gentleman who takes part in elections, a subeditor of the leading Reform newspaper in that city. Does my hon. friend suppose that the people of Canada will believe that the Labour Department is free from partisanship if the minister selects Reform editors in the diffierent cities and towns throughout Canada to act as correspondents ? What would happen ? An election comes on and the Reform editor, who is interested in the success of his own paper, supports the candidate of the Reform party, and is on the pay roll of this government. The salary, of course, is not very large; but if the minister wants the people of Canada to believe that there is no politics in the Department of Labour, he should find somebody in the city of Belleville to act as correspondent of the ' Labour Gazette ' who is not directly interested in the success of the Reform party or of a Reform newspaper in that city. This is an example to show that there is some politics, after all, in the selection of these correspondents, and I rather think that somebody outside of the Labour Department of the government has some say in their selection.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Every one of these correspondents is required to send his material in over his own signature. I challenge any hon. gentleman on the other side of the House to point out one single paragraph in the * Labour Gazette ' during the past year from any city in Canada that would he characterized as the partisan utterance of a Liberal. That is the test.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. gentleman undertake to say that the documents appear in the ' Gazette ' as sent in by the correspondents ; or will his deputy say so ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Of course, they are edited. Necessarily all manuscript coming into newspaper offices must be edited and correeted;' but the reports are kept in the department for a year, and can be laid upon

tlie table of tbe House if necessary. For ruy lion, friend to make tbe bald assertion that there is partisanship in the Labour Department may satisfy his mind, but it cannot satisfy the people of this country, or even the labour element.


Richard Blain: Would the minister regard a correspondent who is a sub-editor of a Reform newspaper in the city of Belleville, as a man fitted to leave the impression that there is no party politics In the * Gazette ' ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Certainly, I would appoint the mau. The question is, does the character of his work show that he takes his partisanship into his official position ? Tne city editor of the Ottawa ' Citizen ' is the Ottawa correspondent of the ' Labour Gazette perhaps my hon. friends would not characterize him as a partisan. As to Mr. Marks, I am informed on excellent authority that he is not only not a partisan in the strict sense of the world, but that he is a strong supporter of the Hon. Adam Beck, and supported him very strongly in the recent local election in London. Mr. Marks is at liberty as a citizen to support whomsoever he chooses; he is not responsible to the Labour Department. This investigation commenced in March, and it was all concluded, so far as Mr. Marks was concerned, on the 30th of April.


Andrew B. Ingram: On the 13th of June. He did not deliver the goods until then.


Henry Robert Emmerson: He had none to deliver; it was not for him to deliver any goods. These vain imaginings of my hon. friend surely do not satisfy even his own analytical- mind as respects the general charge which he has made. My hon. friend says Mr. Marks took part in the recent election against Mr. Gray.	Not many
months since he supported the Hon. Adam Beck, and I am informed that in the election in November last he was active against Mr. Gray. I do not know of this personally.


Andrew B. Ingram: How did the hon. gentleman get this information ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have been informed of the fact.


Andrew B. Ingram: By your deputy7 ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Not by the deputy at all. He has not given me any information with respect to the political features, but I have information from very authentic sources, just as likely to be as reliable and well informed as my hon. friend.


Mr. HENDERSON.: A short time ago my hon. friend for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) made the statement that to his own knowledge there was an increased distribution of copies of the ' Labour Gazette ' made in London during the late election. It is a well established rule in this House that when an hon. member makes a statement of his own knowledge, every7 other hon.


Henry Robert Emmerson: member is bound to accept it. In violation of that rule, a young gentleman, who has been granted a seat within the walls of the chamber by the courtesy of this House, chooses to prompt the minister and tells him that the statement was not true, and he did this although as a matter of fact he had no personal knowledge. When a deputy minister is permitted to come within this chamber, he is here by the courtesy of the members of this House ; and if the gentleman in question should be guilty of such conduct again, I will call the attention of Mr. Speaker to the fact that there is a stranger in the House and have him ejected. Any man admitted into this chamber by the courtesy of the House has no privilege not accorded to the members of the House. This young gentleman had no right to prompt the minister because he knew nothing about the facts and was not in a position to contradict what the hon. member for East Elgin said. You talk of partisanship in the ' Labour Gazette,' what an exhibition we have had of it during the last three quarters of an hour. Here is the Deputy Minister of Labour keeping up a running conversation with his minister and prompting that minister when he had no right to do so. His duty is simply to answer questions put to him by the minister. He has given an exhibition of partisanship unworthy of any man occupying a position in the civil service. He had better be more guarded in the future because he is not occupying any position of privilege and must limit himself strictly to his duty.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We have just had a splendid exhibition of valour. The deputy minister is here in the discharge of his duties, and he is the only source of information I have, as I am not connected with the Department of Labour. An hon. member says that the edition of the ' Labour Gazette ' for the recent month had been increased.


Andrew B. Ingram: I did not. Do not put words iu my mouth which I did not say.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend said that there had been an increase in the circulation of the 1 Labour Gazette ' during the recent election. I asked the deputy minister whether there had been an increased number of copies issued, and he said most distinctly there had not. The circulation was not increased and the number of copies had not been in any way added to. He must have personal knowledge of that, and I may tell my hon. friend that the orders to the King's Printer and the accounts from him will verify every statement made by the Deputy Minister of Labour in that connection. My hon. friend seems to take exception to the fact that the ' Labour Gazette ' was circulated in London during the recent election. I have already explained that the ' Labour Gazette ' is on sale at three cents a copy. Any one can purchase copies and send them

to London or elsewhere. Would that he any crime ? Is it political literature ? In no sense can it be so characterized. It contains statements of facts, and surely my hon. friend is not afraid of the facts. Apparently he is. Any one could send these ' Labour Gazettes ' out, and surely that would be no charge against the Department of Labour? When my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) calmly reflects he will feel that his words had been better left unsaid.


David Henderson: 1 have been calmly reflecting for the last three quarters of an hour waiting an opportunity of drawing to the attention of the minister the most unseemly conduct of the Deputy Minister of Labour. I made the statement I did after the most calm reflection. We have had this afternoon an exhibition of political partisanship from the deputy minister such as 1 have not seen in the last 15 or 16 years. There was no necessity for his keeping up a running conversation and taking the minister's attention away from the hon. member who had the floor, merely for the purpose of prompting him with reference to matters that were not at all directly before the House, but that had come out perhaps in the newspapers. All the deputy had to do was to remain in his place until some question was put to him by the minister about the work he is here to perform. He is here with the courtesy of members of this House and had no right to prompt the minister to say that the statement made by the hon. member for Elgin was untrue. The minister has given the whole case away by admitting that there might have been a very large increase of distribution because these gazettes are on sale and may be purchased in large numbers.


Henry Robert Emmerson: What harm would that be ?


David Henderson: I am not saying there is any harm, but the point I wish to make is that the minister's deputy had no right to prompt the minister to say that the member for Elgin had made a statement which was not true. The , statement of the hon. member for Elgin should have been accepted without contradiction, and much less contradiction made by a minister at the prompting of his deputy. The fact is they were afraid. The word of the member for Elgin ought to have been accepted and no contradiction should have been made whatever, much less should a contradiction have been made by the minister after being prompted by the Deputy Minister of Labour.


Alexander Johnston: Before this item finally passes I desire to say one or two words. A deputy coming on the floor of this House and supplying' the minister with information is not a new system. I am sure that the member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) has seen this plan carried out
for many many years. I have seen it in operation for five years, and this is the first time in my experience that such an attack.
1 may say such a violent attack-an attack which I am sure the member for Halton in his quiet moments will regret-has been made upon a gentleman, let me tell my hon. friend from Hamilton, who occupies a splendid position throughout the length and breadth of this country, and who is not in a position to defend himself from the attack. Let me remind the hon. gentleman that he is making an attack upon a gentleman who has endeared himself to the workmen of this country. I am in a position to speak for the workmen of this country as perhaps even the member for Halton is not; I have a great army of workmen in my constituency who have made the acquaintance of my friend the Deputy Minister of Labour who occupies a seat on the floor, as my hon. friend says, by the courtesy of this House. Members of this House have extended courtesies like this to deputy ministers on former occasions ; is there any reason why special attention should be drawn to the fact that members of this House have extended such a courtesy to the Deputy Minister of Labour ? Is it because he chances to be Deputy Minister of Labour that the soul of the member for Halton is disturbed on this occasion, because the House has extended permission to him to appear on the floor of this chamber? Let my hon. friend be disturbed as he may be; it may be that the presence of my friend the Deputy Minister of Labour is a serious menace to the conscience of the member for Halton, but let me assure him that the presence of the Deputy Minister of Labour is not a menace to the great body of workmen and citizens of this country. He has supplied the acting minister with information, that is all he is doing here, and all he has done. He did not seek to contradict any statement made by any person in this House; he sought only to give to the minister information which the minister was seeking and which was necessary in order to put this committee in full possession of the facts. That is all he has done, ail the crime that has been committed.
Reverting for a moment to the discussion which was in progress, what are the facts of the case, in reference to the work of the various correspondents throughout the country ? As the minister has said the test of their work is the items they supply to the ' Gazette.' My friends who have found fault with the work of these men have been asked to submit for the consideration of this committee any items sent by these various correspondents published in the ' Labour Gazette,' which could in any way be construed as being of a partisan character. These lion, gentlemen have not seen fit to produce for the information of this committee the items that in their judgment - were of a partisan character. I must con-

fess that I am not perhaps a very close reader of the ' Labour Gazette,' but I do read it. There is scarcely an issue published that I do not read, although perhaps rather hurriedly, but I am bound to observe that in no issue of the ' Gazette ' have I any recollection whatever of reading anything that could be construed as being in any way of a partisan character. Now that, after all, is the important matter for this committee to determine. As I said before, as the minister has very well stated, the test of these correspondents' work is the items they send to the ' Gazette.' It has not been shown to the committee that'their work is of a partisan character, and therefore there is no very good reason why this committee should find fault. It is, I am bound to observe, a very great pity that this gentleman mentioned by the member for Peel (.Mr. Blain), who happens to be editor of a Reform paper in Belleville, does not abandon every other calling in life and confine himself strictly to the earning of this $100 salary in Belleville. It is a great pity and I hope that some official connected with the department will bring the matter to his notice and ask him to abandon every other means of livelihood, and endeavour to convince him that the proper way for him is to live hereafter on the $100 salary furnished by the ' Labour Gazette.'


David Henderson: I do not propose to follow the member for Cape Breton through his rambling remarks outside the question to which I referred. The hon. gentleman seeks to make a point against me, and I was surprised that so many hon. gentlemen behind him cheered. Evidently they did not know what they were cheering. He said I was making an attack on a gentleman who could not defend himself.
gome hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


David Henderson: Is there an hon. gentleman in this House who has never made an attack on persons outside of this House who could not defend themselves here ? If there is, let him cheer.


Mr. A. LAVERGNE.: They can get back.


David Henderson: They are silent, even our cigarette friend. I exceeded no privilege, I did not go beyond my rights, I did not go beyond what any member of this House does and does day after day, criticising the actions of men outside the House. Now I think the hon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. Alex. Johnston) will see how silly his statement, how extremely silly his argument was, and that the members of this House behind him will see how silly they were when they cheered and applauded the statement that he made when practically there was nothing in it. There is but one other point. The member says that he spent five years in this House and never heard a charge of this kind made before.


Alexander Johnston: I have been here seventeen years and I never saw the necessity for it. That is my statement and my reason for making the statement I made. When I see an impropriety cai'ried on in this House I am going to call the attention of the minister in charge to it. I am not afraid : my friend may throw out his threat, it is nothing to me ; when I think anything in the House is improper I am going to draw public attention to it, and I will stand by the result. I say that I never before saw an occasion for making such a charge as I have made to-day; otherwise in all probability I would have done so. I hope and trust we will never again have an exhibition in this House such as we have had to-day.


Andrew B. Ingram: In connection with the circulation of the ' Labour Gazette,' I knew it to be the case that they were being delivered to parties in London by the halfdozen and I asked for information whether the department were sending them out in that manner. I said that they, were being circulated at the time of the election ancl the minister denied it and said that was not so which in effect meant that the statement I had made was1 not a true statement and the member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) had certainly good reason to complain, because I think the deputy minister prompted the minister that such was not the case.


Henry Robert Emmerson: All I said to my hon. friend was that the department was not circulating these papers. If there was any point in his remarks with respect to the issue and circulation of the 'Labour Gazette' as against the department it would be that the Labour Department was circulating copies. I asked the deputy minister and he told me fairly and very promptly that they were not being circulated by the department.


David Henderson: Oh, no.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That was very fair, and I am sure my hon. friend wiil take my word for it. I have been here in this House for some years and I will say that the Deputy Minister of Labour shows that he is well informed as to his department.
I have had occasion to ask him for this information, he has given it to me in a gentlemanly way, in no uncertain way and I am sure there must be some ulterior motive that would prompt a statement to the contrary.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am not going to allow the minister to get away from the point.
I made this inquiry, and the minister answered, no, they were not being circulated But on rising this last time he has added ' by the department,' a statement which he did not make on the first occasion. Now the statement I make is a fact. If they were circulated by some person it was done with an object, and the object was, as I have shown, to draw the attention of the

workingmen of London to certain acts of the member for that city with a view of influencing votes. There is no doubt about that. Now with respect to the correspondence for this non-partisan department. I want to impress the minister again with those words ' non-partisan.' The object in organizing the Labour Department was to obtain information on non-partisan lines, to obtain statistics in order to promote the interests of the workingmen. They felt the need of a department of that kind, and the object was to obtain information that would be reliable. The workingmen wanted it to be conducted on non-partisan lines. Now, would it not be the part of a non-partisan department to employ such men as are considered independent labour men, men who could get statistics unbiased by party considerations or outside influence ? If that is so, let me ask if the workingmen of Canada are so driven that the department cannot find among them independent workingmen sufficiently capable to act as correspondents for the department, without going out and getting, if you will, the editor of the Ottawa [DOT] Citizen,' for instance, or the editor of a Belleville paper, for another instance ? Are there no independent workingmen in the city of Ottawa capable of furnishing correspondence to this ' Gazette,' no workingmen in Belleville who are capable ? Take my own city of St. Thomas. Mr. Roberts is a very competent and capable man, recognized as such by Liberals and Conservatives. Mr. Roberts was performing his duty well and faithfully by the workingmen of the district of St. Thomas. He is a man that will vote against me, but I do not care for that. Now why was he discharged ? He was discharged because he would not vote for the Liberal candidate, and I make that statement on the floor of the House frankly and above-board. Who was appointed in his place ? Mr. Killings-worth, who is associated with the Liberal organ of St. Thomas, is appointed to take this man's place ? Why ? Because Mr. Roberts refused to act the part as a partisan, that is the reason he was dismissed. There is no question about that, because I can prove my statement from the files of the Liberal paper in St. Thomas. Now the bon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. A. Johnston) asked : Is a man going to give up his independence for the sake of a paltry salary V I say, no. But, whoever expected that the editor and proprietor of the Belleville Liberal paper would give up his independence in the interests of labour in furnishing correspondence ?


Alexander Johnston: Has my hon. friend any evidence to submit as to the impartiality of this correspondence from Belleville ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I have already asked the minister if the correspondence that is sent here by the various correspondents appears over their signatures when sent into the
department. I say, no, it does not, and let the minister and his deputy deny it if they can.


Alexander Johnston: That is not an answer to my question.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is an answer. Now. 1 have no fault to find with any other department of the government, except this one, acting in a partisan manner. They have a perfect right to do so. A Liberal has a perfect right to defend the government, he lias a perfect right to support the government candidate. Liberals have a perfect right to take any measures they choose so long as they comply with the law of the land. But when this government runs a department which they tell the people is run on non-partisan lines, and if I can show that it is not run on non-partisan lines. I say the sooner they abandon that contention the better. Mr. Marks was employed by this department to do certain work. Now if the department was running this paper on nonpartisan lines would they tell this man to prepare an affidavit in the heat of a political contest, digging up something imaginary that occurred five years ago, in order to defeat the Conservative candidate ? Is that the part of a man who is selected because of his independence ?


Alexander Johnston: Is it true 7


Andrew B. Ingram: It is not true. Let me tell the right bon. premier that this question involves serious consequences to the Dominion of Canada. It involves the welfare of a prominent railway in the Dominion of Canada. This American railway company has purchased a certain railway in Canada, and they are operating it. They have sent into Canada certain employee's for the purpose of managing the affairs of that railway, and the Labour Department, for the purpose of influencing the votes of labour men in the city of London, appointed a certain gentleman as commissioner to take evidence and report to the government. He did so, and the government, in pursuance of his report, issued an order, and some of these alien labourers were given twenty-four days to leave the country, others were given seven days to leave the country, and others were ordered to leave forthwith. As a matter of fact the railway company is resisting in the courts the order of the government. and the question may become an international one between Canada and the United States. So I say to my right hon. friend that this is too serious a question to be kicked around as a football in a byelection. It is not a new thing for Americans to come into this country and work on railways. Every man knows perfectly well that the Grand Trunk Pacific has brought in large numbers of aliens for the purpose of working on that line. The civil engineers of Canada have Complained month in and month out to the government about



large numbers of these aliens coming in. This non-partisan department, that is supposed to look after the interests of labouring men of this country, appointed Judge Winchester to inquire into these charges against the Grand Trunk Pacific. He made a report, which has been printed. Has there been any order issued for the arrest of these men ? Have any of them been given twenty-four days to leave the country, others seven days, and have some of them been ordered to leave forthwith ? No. Why has that not been done by this non-partisan department ? Why is this one particular railway selected instead of the Grand Trunk Pacific ? Why is discrimination exercised against the smaller company and the larger one allowed to go free '! Is it because there was no election going on in the country that could be influenced ? Was it not for the purpose of influencing workingmen's votes In the city of London that this smaller railway company is discriminated against ? I want to tell my right bon. friend that in the administration of this department ail that has occurred recently has been sufficient to cause this government a good deal of trouble. Now one word more to the minister. I recognize that my hon. friend is now performing the duties of the Minister of Labour, and that he does not know the details of the department we are discussing. He must of necessity rely on the information given him by his deputy for the moment. Then, I want to know from the minister or his deputy, either of them for that matter, how it is that the minister is so familiar with the free working of the Libera] and Conservative party in London during the last general election and this recent by-election ? How does it come that my hon. friend is so familiar with the workers in the contests in November and in the contest which has just closed ? Was he prompted by the deputy ?
Mr, EM ME ItS ON. I had a note placed in my hands coming into the House so that my hon. friend need not waste any breath on the deputy in connection with that.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the hon. gentleman was not furnished with this information by the deputy I am very glad to hear it.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It came from outside altogether.


Andrew B. Ingram: It certainly did not come from the hon. gentleman himself, because he possibly could not know it, and if lie were furnished with that informatics by the deputy, it would be an evidence of the partisanship of the department. The partisanship of the department is already proved by the bon member for Cape Breton, because he says that there are partisan officials in connection with the department, and that is all I am complaining of. We do not care if other departments are conducted upon partisan lines so much, but we do Mr. INGRAM.
want this to be a department conducted ou non-partisan lines.'


Richard Blain: 
Alexander Johnston: I was simply curious to .know what charge the hon. member had to make in that connection.


Richard Blain: I had nothing to say against Mr. Gillespie, but I made the statement that I did not think the minister could expect that the country, and the House would form the impression that this is a non-partisan department when this Belleville correspondent is one of the editors of the Reform newspaper in that city.


Alexander Johnston: Unlike my hon. friend from Elgin, I am sure that, having made that statement, my hon. friend from Peel will be prepared to submit for tlie information of the committee some evidence to justify the assertion that be is a partisan. 1


Richard Blain: In answer to that I am free to say that I cannot pick out of this ' Gazette ' anything from the correspondent at Belleville that would lead me to believe that he is a partisan, but I will make this statement that if the bon. member will lay on the table of the House the correspondence as it comes from these men and allow tlie committee to make a complete examination of it, I think I will be able to produce evidence of partisanship.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We are perfectly willing to do that.


Richard Blain: However, that matter is unimportant. I make the statement that in my opinion in the city of Belleville men could be found who do not take an active part in politics as Mr. Gillespie does to act as correspondents of this 'Gazette.' My hon. friend will not differ from that statement.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I suppose it would be all right to take a mild-mannered mail and one who happened to be a friend of my hon. friend.


Richard Blain: When I make application for a friend of mine to get such a position as that I will inform my hon. friend in writing so that lie will know it and be able to deal with it In a proper way. But, that is not the point. We make the statement that the Department of Labour Is surround-
7533	JUNE 15. 1905	7531
ed by political partisanship. The correspondent in the city of Belleville is an active politician, the sub-editor of one of the Reform papers in that city, a gentleman who attends political meetings and who writes political reports, and we say therefore that another man who does not take this active part in politics would be better if my bon. friend comes to the decision that this should be a non-partisan department. Then we have another gentleman in the city of Chatham by the name of Snell. I would like my hon. friend to take his name down and make an examination of this case as well. Mr. Snell is a very active partisan in the city of Chatham in West Kent.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: No, he is not. I have known him for twenty years.


Richard Blain: That is all right. My hon. friend (Mr. Campbell) has foi'gotten since he left West Kent. He has come down into what was formerly West York, but which was fixed up in the redistribution, and called Centre York. I have a better informant than my hon. friend, a gentleman who has been more recently in the campaigns in West Kent, and I am sure my hon. friend would think that he would be a better informant. I make the statement and X have no fear of contradiction that Mr. Snell is an active partisan, and takes an active part in every political contest up there. Yet, he is the correspondent of this ' Labour Gazette.' If my hon. friend will wait a moment I think I have some evidence that is a little more recent and perhaps a little more startling. In Calgary we have Mr. J. Gillespie, correspondent at $100 a year of this nonpartisan 1 Gazette.' Who is Mr. Gillespie ? Mr. Gillespie is a gentleman who takes a very active part in every election. After the election is over what does Mr. Gillespie do? He signs the protests against members sitting on this side of the House for Calgary and he does this in the Liberal interest.


Alexander Johnston: Is Mr. Gillespie still hi the employ of the 'Labour Gazette' ?


Richard Blain: My hon. friend from Cape Breton should not ask information from me that he has at hand. Ask the minister. I will just stop to find out whether that gentleman is the correspondent of the ' Labour Gazette,' because I am rather interested m that myself. I will ask the minister. Perhaps my hon. friend from Cape Breton is well informed ?


Alexander Johnston: I follow these things.


Henry Robert Emmerson: This gentleman has resigned.


Richard Blain: When 5


Henry Robert Emmerson: Last month.


Richard Blain: Oh, yes. He discharged his dutv while he was correspondent. The election was in November, but the protest was 239J
signed in December. May I ask the hon. minister if Mr. Gillespie was paid for his December work by the department, because in that month he signed the protest against my hon. friend (Mr. M. S. McCarthy) who represents Calgary in this House.


Henry Robert Emmerson: He would naturally be
paid down to the time of his resignation.


Richard Blain: Well, there is the condition of things. We have brought a little to light. We could present samples of a great many other cases to the committee if we wished to take up the time of the House. That is the position of the Labour Department. We find that they have in their employ active politicians and men who are not satisfied with being active politicians, but who must go even further. In this case we have a man who puts his name to the protest against the election of my hon. friend from Calgary.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Why should he not ?


Richard Blain: I have nothing to say about a gentleman putting his name to a protest if he sees fit to do so, but he should not be the correspondent of the * Labour Gazette '
and at the same' time be an active politician.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: I know that some of my friends on the other side of the House are very sore, but I want to argue this in a very quiet way.


Richard Blain: After I get through.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Does my hon. friend expect, amongst all the labour men in Canada, to find men having no ideas relating to politics in order that they may be the cor-xespondents of the ' Laboxxr Gazette ' and receive $100 each ? This is the most ridiculous discussion I have ever heard in this House. How could you expect a man to abdicate evex-y political idea he has ever had for a position worth $100 a year ? ilow caxx you expect a man to shxxt liis eyes to the prosperity of the country, which is so evident all round him, and refuse to mention jr in his correspondence to the ' Labour Gazette' ? A man need not necessarily be partisan in this correspondence, because he is Liberal or Conservative ; you may find men in this country who have stroxxg political ideas, and who would make impartial correspondents ; but it would be an insult to the workingmen of this country to thixxk that you can find amongst them men who have xxo intex'est in the welfare of the country, and who are x'eady to sacrifice theix political opinions one way or the other for a trumpery $100 a year". This discussioxx is ridiculous.


George Eulas Foster: We had better go home after that.


Richard Blain: I am glad I gave way so as to give an opportunity to my young friend to present his contribution to the debate. I never said anything which would

lead one to believe that a correspondent of tlie * Labour Gazette ' should give up every avocation in life to get $100 a year. That would be a ridiculous contention indeed.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Even if a man does accept that position at $100 per year, why should he not retain his political ideas like every other citizen ?
Mr. 15 LA IN. TVhy, of course, he should. 11 may not be good policy for the government to appoint politicians to this non-partisan Labour Department, and I do not object to them employing supporters of their party, but I do complain that not only do they select politicians who take part in elections, but that they select men who, after the election is over, sign petitions and prove themselves partisan. It is said that this man signed the petition on Sunday, and I have been told that the petition was dismissed because it was signed on Sunday, but with that X have nothing to do. At all events, we have quoted enough from the ' Labour Gazette ' itself to show the minister that if he selects Liberals as contributors, he should not select active politicians.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Does my hou. friend believe that because a man is a Liberal he cannot write an honest report for the ' Labour Gazette ' ?


Richard Blain: I certainly believe that a Reformer might be a good contributor to this ' Gazette,' although my hon. friend (Mr. A.	Lavergne) may think a Conservative could not be.


Armand Renaud La Vergne: Oh, no.


Richard Blain: I do repeat that if a man is
going to be a contributor to a non-partisan journal, printed under the direction of the Labour Department, he should not be an active politician.


George Eulas Foster: We have had an interesting discussion.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Opinions will differ as to its being interesting.


George Eulas Foster: I think probably a moderate man may point a lesson which the Minister of Labour might take to heart. If there is one department that has been formed by the government under the idea that it should be entirely disjointed from party politics, it is the Labour Bureau. It is not the best way to give a non-partisan character to the Labour Department by making active political partisans correspondents of this paper and this bureau. The question is not whether it is not possible for a partisan to write a reasonable and fair article on occasions, but to prove that he could do so would not remove my objection. The Labour Department will take its character from its published press and its inner spirit and work, which is shown by its compilations and publications. I appeal to mem-Mr. BLAIN.
bers on both sides of the House if it is the best outside dress to give this non-partisan department, that heated partisans of either political party, and especially heated partisans of the party in power, should be appointed to office in connection with it ? The men who know these appointments iu the different localities will come to the conclusion that the Labour Department is partisan just the same as other departments of the government, and they will lose confidence in it. That you should take the subeditor of a Liberal paper and appoint him to be a correspondent of the ' Labour Gazette ' is not a crime, but there was no necessity to appoint such a man. The hon. gentleman who said you could not expect him to give up his other employment for the sake of $100 a year, would not exercise any great intellectual effort if he took the other side of the argument, and said that it would have been better to have avoided appointing such a man in the first place. If you want to get this department into a position in which it will do the most good, you had better give up employing correspondents wbo are active political partisans. It is no compliment to the great labour organizations of this country to say that you cannot find a reasonably fair-minded man who could do this work for you a mighty sight better than a newspaper editor. The particular class of information you want can be better given by a labour man who is versed in the work of the organization than by a newspaper reporter or editor. No answer has been given to the statement made here that a gentleman in the city of St. Thomas, who had acted as a correspondent, was removed because he was not partisan enough for the government. Unless there is a fair answer given to that, it is a pretty strong condemnation of the Labour Bureau. If the dismissed correspondent were competent, why were his services dispensed with-although he was a Liberal and a non-partisan-and a heated partisan put in his place ? If it can be shown that the first man did not perform his duties fairly well, there would be good ground for his dismissal, but there would be no fair ground for putting an active partisan in his place.
I want to say a word or two with reference' to the ' Labour Gazette ' itself. 11 is a little difficult to criticise this paper on the cursory knowledge a member of parliament is able to get of it. I read it occasionally. I note some things in it, but what is the object of this publication 5 Is it to make a readable magazine for labouring men in this country ? What number is printed and distributed ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Ten thousand.


George Eulas Foster: Then, to what proportion of the hundreds of thousands of labouring men in Canada does this magazine go '! There are magazines and labour papers which go into hundreds of thousands of



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labouring men's homes in this country, which have all kinds Of information. Is it the purpose of the ' Labour Gazette ' to compete with these publications ?
JXr. EMMERSON. It is a statistical record.
George Eulas Foster: 
Archibald Campbell: Mr. Chairman, I do not think many of the workingmen of this country will agree with the sentiments just uttered by the hon. member for North Toronto and the other members of the opposition who have spoken. I think the workingmen of this country feel that the ' Labour Gazette ' is filling a long-felt want. They have desired for many years to have some medium by which they could learn the conditions of labour in the different parts of this vast Dominion. It is true, we _ have labour papers. We have one in the city of Toronto, but its circulation is confined largely to that city. The ' Labour Gazette ' was started principally for the purpose of giving the working classes of this Dominion the news as to the conditions of trade, the scale of wages and the thousand and one things that interest them very much ; and I believe that it is accomplishing the end aimed at. The hon. member for North Toronto, with all his ingenuity, could only find two items to which he took exception. One was a report of the Dominion Coal Company. I would like to know if the men working in the mines of Nova Scotia are not interested in the condition of the Dominion Coal Company. I would also like to know if the men all over this Dominion, many of whom own stock in the Hudson Bay Company, are not interested in the affairs of that company. What are we doing for the manufacturing classes of this Dominion ? We are publish-

ing monthly returns of the exports and the imports to enable these classes to get an accurate knowledge of what is going out and what is coming in, and where the best markets can be found. We are publishing thes -at great expense. My hon. friend has no objection to that ; but when we publish a 1 Labour Gazette ' for the purpose of giving to workingmen all over this Dominion the information they want, hon. gentlemen opposite find fault with that, and try to make out that the Labour Department is a partisan department. These hon. gentlemen have been challenged here to-day, and they have not been able to show one single article in this paper that is of a partisan character. It does not matter who sends in the articles, whether they are by the city editor of the Ottawa ' Citizen ' or the city editor of a Belleville paper, if they are partisan articles and are published in this ' Labour Gazette,' the department is to blame ; but unless hon. gentlemen opposite can show that these articles are partisan, they have brought no charge against the department at all. The name of Mr. Snell, of Chatham, has been mentioned. I have known him for thirty years, and he is a most competent man for this work. He is a workingman ; he votes Liberal, of course, as nearly all the workingmen of this country do, and they are doing it more and more all the time. He could not do anything else. He understands the manner in which the government are conducting the affairs of the country. He knows that the country is prospering, and being intelligent he votes for what is good and best for himself an# the country. I defy the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) to take up Mr. Snell's articles during the last twelve months and find one word in them indicating partisanship. But what Is all this fuss about ? The acting minister must make considerable allowance for our friends opposite. They are not in very good humour and require aii outlet for their indignation. They went up to London and told the whole world that all the workingmen there were going to support Mr. Gray and that Mr. Hyman had no chance at all. They challenged us to open a seat in London. The hon. member for South York tMr. W. F. Maclean) and the whole outfit went there and boasted they would carry London without fail. But their hopes were dashed to the ground, and Mr. Hyman's majority is sixteen times what it was last November. No wonder they feel sore.


Richard Blain: What about Centre Toronto?


Archibald Campbell: There is where we made the mistake. If we had gone there, we would have carried it. and it was against my judgment that we did not contest it. we would have carried it as we did North Oxford and London and Edmonton and Levis and how many more ? No wonder these hon. gentlemen are irritable. Thev made a vicious attack on the deputy minister. The hon. member for Haltoii (Mr. Mr. CAMPBELL.
Henderson) is going to invoke the rules of the House and have him turned out. I must say that I have never seen such an exhibition of ill-temper and chagrin as we have just witnessed. I would advise these hon. gen. tlemen to crawl into a hole and then draw it in after them. That would be much more dignified than wasting the time of this House and making a travesty of parliamentary government by trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. They will no doubt learn by experience. Let them take Peruna or some other of these patent medicines, which will cure everything.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am very glad the hon. gentleman has at last some courage. Only a few weeks ago he was challenged to resign his seat, but he took mighty good care not to.


Archibald Campbell: Why should I resign my seat and go to all the trouble and expense of running another election just to gratify my hon. friends. Would my hon. friend resign his seat ? His majority was only 16 at the last election.


Andrew B. Ingram: The chunk you cut off just gave 529 of a Tory majority, but still I pulled through all the same. The workingmen have evidently very little use for the ' Labour Gazette ' because only 10,000 copies of it are issued.


Henry Robert Emmerson: They get it in their unions and associations.


Andrew B. Ingram: I congratulate the hon. gentleman upon being so well informed. But the total number is only 10,000. and therefore the labouring men evidently do not find it necessary to get it. Nor is that surprising. Associated with this department are certain men who were associating with the Ontario government for years, and when such men were brought down to this nonpartisan department and when they were sent out through the country, and acted in the partisan manner -they did, the workingmen lost what little faith they might have had in -the Labour Department or ' Gazette.' I want a little information from the minister with respect to the difficulty on the Pere Marquette Railway. I find that Mr. Hyman wrote to the department on the 2nd March. Had the minister received any other correspondence previous to that date or since in connection with this matter?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There has been no other complaint laid. Hr. Hyman's was the first.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand the department had another letter.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I will bring all the correspondence down.


Andrew B. Ingram: Was there another letter from Mr. Hyman previous to the 2nd March in connection with this matter, and was there any other letter previous or since ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am informed by the deputy that, as far as his memory goes, Mr. Hyman's was the first letter. Several hon. members spoke to Sir William Muloek on the subject, but the first formal complaint came from Mr. Hyman.


Andrew B. Ingram: Was that made on March. 2 V


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes, on March 2.


Andrew B. Ingram: That was the first complaint and the first letter to the department ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Except that there had been some verbal communications previous to that by an hon. member of this House.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. gentleman tell us whether there was not other correspondence since the 2nd of March from any other quarter ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then I understand there was no correspondence with any person except Mr. Hyman in connection with this matter.


Henry Robert Emmerson: A number of persons communicated with Mr. Hyman; Mr. Hyman then communicated with the Minister of Railways both verbally and by written communication. That is practically all there is in the department.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to state to the minister that during last winter, when there was a good deal of difficulty on this railway; and some changes were made in the officers of that road, I understood a number of men complained and had written to the Department of Labour in connection with the changes that were being made on that railway and that this letter of the 2nd March is the outcome of the complaint then made. Does the minister say that there was no correspondence making these complaints ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The deputy does not recall that there was, although he will have a search made in the morning and if there is any correspondence copies will be furnished.


Andrew B. Ingram: That ought to be satisfactory. Then again I would like to know, because I live in the place, why Mr. Roberts was dismissed. I know of no reason.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The information I have is that because of the gentleman's very active political partisanship it was thought that lie would be doing an injury to the ' Gazette ' and his services were dispensed with.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have this statement to make, that Mr. Roberts did not act in a partisan spirit as a Conservative, and did not net in a partisan spirit as a Liberal. Now how was he acting in a partisan spirit?
I make that statement as a member of this House.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am only giving the reasons assigned. Of course I must accept the hon. gentleman's word anyway, but I am not familiar with the circumstances in any sense ; I am only giving the reasons assigned by the department.


Andrew B. Ingram: I cannot understand who would complain of a man who is not a partisan. How did he show it ? As an active Liberal or as an active Conservative?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The Minister of Labour was satisfied that on account of the attitude taken by that gentleman his services to the ' Gazette ' could best be dispensed with. Of course it all depends on the point of view. We are very apt to look through coloured glasses occasionally, and possibly what would seem to be a very inoffensive action in the.eyes of my hon. friend might in the eyes of some one else be very offensive partisanship.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will make the statement to this House that if ever there was a correspondent who carried out what the aims and objects of the ' Labour Gazette ' should be Mr. Roberts was doing it. In that constituency there were three candidates. my hon. friend from West Elgin (Mr. Wm. Jackson), the Liberal candidate and a third candidate who was largely a labour candidate. Mr. Roberts, instead of supporting the Conservative or Liberal candidate, supported the labour candidate, and that is the reason why he was dismissed.
I am very sorry that this non-partisan department should adopt the plan, when they found a loyal, true supporter of a nonpartisan department, a loyal and true correspondent on the principles which ought to be laid down in this department, of dismissing from his office. It is very discouraging for those who desire to act in a non-partisan spirit.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I observe that the item covers expenditures for outlay hi connection with the Railway Labour Disputes Act. Proceedings were taken under that Act, as I understand, in connection with an arbitration between the Grand Trunk Railway and the telegraphers. Arbitrators were appointed, a reference was had and an award was made by a majority of the arbitrators, Judge Teetzel and Mr. Harvev Hall joining in the award, and Mr. Shepley for the railway, dissenting. That award was made some months ago, I am informed, but np to the present time the Grand Trunk Railway has not in any way recognized the award or agieed to it oi cal ried out the provisions of the finding of that award. The situation has grown so acute as the result of the railway company not complying with the findings, that I am informed a second strike is now threatened

by tbe telegraphers or at least that trouble is threatened between tbe telegraphers and the company. I desire to bring this matter to the attention of the government and to ascertain if possible the attitude of the government in regard to the administration of that Act, the enforcement of its provision. whether it is to be allowed to be a dead letter, or whether, when a reference is made under it and an award found in accordance with its terms, a party to the award is to be at liberty to utterly repudiate the findings and treat them as though no reference had been made. The matter is of great importance to the labouring classes and to the telegraphers. The Act was said to be a solution for the troubles of railway disputes, but the railway men as yet have not received any of the benefits that were predicted at the time of the introduction of the Act.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: Before the minister explains I would like to read to the House the attitude of Mr. Hays. The member for South Toronto (Mr. A. C. Macdonell) has anticipated me in bringing it up, but in the Montreal paper this morning, Mr. Hays puts himself on record in regard to it. Mr. Hays stated to the Committee of Telegraphers who waited on him yesterday :
That as he had already explained to them in his letters on the subject, the Grand Trunk was in favour of the princi'pie of arbitration, blit such arbitration, to be effective and equitable, must be voluntary on both sides. This was not the case in the instance of the arbitration 'between the Grand Trunk and the telegraphers. The company had protested, in writing, to the Minister of Labour against being forced into the arbitration, but notwithstanding the protest, it was compelled to acquiesce to the proceedings being taken under the statute, which, however, does not give the findings of the arbitrators any power of enforcement.
' Since this arbitration,' remarked Mr. Hays ' has resulted in a disagreement on the part of the arbitrators, the company, in view of its previous notice to that effect, does not consider itself in any way committed to abide by the findings of the arbitrators, which are not in the nature of an award, as claimed by the telegraphers, but merely a report or recommendation.
Now, here is the Grand Trunk, as the member for South Toronto has pointed out. objecting to the jurisdiction of the Act, and saying they are not compelled to abide bv the decision of the arbitrators and do not intend to carry out the findings. He states this to the representatives of the telegraphers who are now in Montreal trying to obtain a settlement of it. It does seem that this great and powerful corporation located in Montreal, which is in close alliance wi'li the government, can defy the labour laws or this country, and that the smaller railroad hnds these laws enforced against it. Tliere-, .1S,in order to ask the government ' tllls	not enforced, and why the
finding winch has been made by these ar-Mr. MACDONELL
bitrators is not complied with by the Grand Trunk.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The best evidence of the wisdom of that legislation is found in the fact that a strike has been averted. During the past twelve months that matter has been under consideration. A strike that was imminent was prevented, and today, as I understand it. the representatives cf the telegraphers' union are negotiating with the Grand Trunk people in Montreal. The Act is not enforceable except in the sense that it compels an arbitration, compels the facts to be presented and an award to be given. That award is largely subject, so far as its enforcement is concerned, to public opinion. I feel that sometimes the Act does not go as far as it should. ' But it is a great step in advance, the greatest that has ever been taken in Canada. From the information I have the likelihood is that this matter will be settled amicably. Not long ago I met the chief of the Telegraphers Union of Canada, and at that time he seemed to think that the matter would be adjusted satisfactorily. We had some difficulty with that order a year ago. on the Intercolonial-not a difficulty, but we had some negotiations with it, and reached a conclusion that was satisfactory, both to the order itself, and to the railway.


William Findlay Maclean: When Mr. Hays says that the company does not consider itself in any way committed to abide by the finding's of the arbitrators, does the minister consider that under the law the parties are not bound to accept the findings?


Henry Robert Emmerson: If it did, it would be in defiance of public opinion.


William Findlay Maclean: I am not talking about public opinion, I am asking the minister his view as to the legalitv of a law.


Henry Robert Emmerson: What law does he refer to?


William Findlay Maclean: I refer to the law of arbitration passed by the government. Under this law a reference was made to arbitrators to settle certain labour disputes, and both parties consented. An arbitration was had, a finding was made and an award was handed in. The telegraphers were simple enough to think that what had been found in their favour would be enforced. Mr. Hays says lie is not bound in any way to observe the findings of the 'arbitrators.
I ask the minister to say whether that is his view also.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: I do not think it is quite correct to say that both parties consented to the arbitration, it was forced upon one of them. We pointed out. when the Minister of Labour insisted on passing this legislation, that ridiculous results of this kind would inevi-


JUXE 15. 1905
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tably ensue, and tliey are most ridiculous, absolutely absurd. The government of this country forces a great corporation to go into arbitration, an arbitrator is appointed, a hearing is had lie-fore three arbitrators, one of whom is a judge, and a majority of those arbitrators, as is always the case, makes aii award which ought to be binding. Then one of the parties to the award simply snaps its fingers in the face of the government, as it can do under the law, and says it will deal with the situation exactly as if no award had been made. Can any one imagine a more ridiculous situation than that in which the government of this country is placed at the present time under legislation passed toy itself? It insists upon an award, a hearing is had, witnesses are called, an award is made, and the Grand Trunk says, We will deal with the situation exactly as if that award had not been made; and the Minister of Railways, acting for the Minister of Labour, says. Well, this will be enforced by public opinion. What steps are the government taking at the present time in order to have this award enforced by public opinion? What are they doing about it? If that is the ultimate court of appeal to which you must look for enforcement of this award, what steps are being taken to arouse public opinion on the subject? It seems to rue the best thing is either to repeal the statute or go further, and provide that any such award shall be enforceable, because it is a mere mockery to have an award made and have it treated in this way.
Henry Robert Emmerson: I may say that the railway company has not so far refused to carry out that award, when a decision is reached; and they informed the department that action can then very well be taken.


Robert Laird Borden: They can refuse, however, can they not, under the law, it is not binding upon them?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The law, as I understand it, does not enforce an award, but you can enforce the investigation that is made under the Act, you can have a public investigation, all the facts can be brought out, and the arbitrators can render an award.


Mr.  R. I.. BORDEN@: What is the use of it all?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Only in so far as the facts developed by the investigation can influence the company to enforce it.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Is the government in a position to compel compliance with tbe award?
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Harbours and rivers-Ontario-Aiglierstburg harbour-'improvement of channel, &e., including purchase of land, $30,000.


Mr.   BRODEIIR@: Tenders for this work were called for and the contract awarded to the Chatham Dredge Comxiany. The total amount of dredging contemplated is $28,700.


Andrew B. Ingram: What land did you purchase ?


Mr. BRODEUR.: We did not purchase any land yet ; we may require to purchase some water lots.
Belle RiviOre-dredging entrance channel, &c., and renewing close pile protection work, $4,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is in North Essex. The total cost is $6,500 and the dredging is to be done by contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: When was this work first undertaken ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It was originally undertaken many years ago.


Andrew B. Ingram: When did this particular work commence ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Last year.


Andrew B. Ingram: Why was it not included in the report of the Public Works Department for last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That report is for the end of the previous fiscal year and this money was only voted last year.
Bayfield-repairs to north pier and dredging, $2,500.
Ml*. BRODEUR. This is in South Huron, it is proposed to increase the dimensions of the channel and to get 14 feet depth at low water. It will be done by day labour and the total cost will be $2,500.


Richard Blain: What! volume of business is done at Bayfield ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is a fishing village.


Andrew B. Ingram: If you are going to dredge for the purpose of accommodating the fishermen, this amount may be sufficient, but I know the place very well and if you want to get 14 feet of water you will have to spend more money.
Beaverton-harbour improvements, $8,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is in the county of North Ontario. It is to cut a channel 60 feet wide and for the construction of close pile protection bank and breakwaters 150 feet in length. The total cost is $11,000.


Samuel Hughes: It is a very necessary work.


Blanche Riviere-improvement of, $9,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is in the county of Nipissing. The vote is to provide for the reinoyal of snags and other obstructions; the total cost will he $15,000.


Richard Blain: Has this work been commenced ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Not yet.


Richard Blain: Has there been any government money expended there ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; the department is building a small snag boat to do the work.


Samuel Hughes: This is not navigable water in the sense of being connected with the sea. With the exception of a few little favoured places in the province of Quebec, the custom hitherto has been that no public money in the Dominion has been expended on this class of work. I am not opposing it; I am in favour of it, but I want to know if the minister is introducing a new policy, and if so, we will give him lots of inland waters on which the snags require to be removed.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am not sure that the statement is correct, that this kind of work has hitherto been confined to Quebec, but at all events we are extending it to Ontario and I suppose that is all right.


Samuel Hughes: It has not been done on Ontario inland waters, except up here between Ontario and Quebec.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It has been done in Temiskaming.
Bracebridge-wharf, $3,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete pav-raents in connection with this work which has been built under contract; the total cost will be $9,000.
Mr, BARR. Will this finish the work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is under contract now.


Mr. W. WRIGHT.: I call the attention of the minister to the fact that this work is in a rather peculiar position. The wharf which has been in existence is some little distance down the side of the stream from the falls and is in a very accessible place. The present wharf is being built in an inaccessible place, and whether by the action of the falls or otherwise, a sandbar has been raised just below it, which will make it practically of no use for the larger boats unless a sufficient amount of dredging is done to enable them to reach the wharf. I would like to inquire whether it is the intention of the government to make provision for dredging across the sand-bar so us to allow the larger boats to reach the wharf.


Mr BRODEUR.: I may say that the wharf has been located where it is at the request of the business men of that locality. The hon. member says that another site was Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
advocated by some persons in the locality, but it was found on survey that the present location would be more suitable. If some dredging is required to enable vessels to reach the wharf, it will have to be done. There is no vote for that, but I will take a note of the hon. member's suggestion.


Aaron Abel Wright: The information I have from persons who have some knowledge of the locality is that it will be practically useless without dredging. It is inaccessible to a large majority of the business men ; they are opposed to having it placed there, and they say that they will not use it.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Is it not near the business centre of the locality ?


Aaron Abel Wright: There is practically very little difference between the two sites, so far as that is concerned ; but it is right at the foot of the falls and is inaccessible for teams taking anything to or from the wharf. But I am not raising an objection so much to the location of the wharf, because that is a matter for the steamboat people and the town, and if both are satisfied, I am. I would like to know if any provision is to be made for dredging In order to make this wharf of practical use to the public ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: If some dredging is absolutely required, we have a general vote for dredging, and the money for the work will come out of that vote.
Mr. SAM, HUGHES. I must compliment the government for carrying out this work. This is one of the promises made by the Postmaster General during a by-election up there. On that occasion he selected the site for this wharf, and made a very extravagant promise, and I am glad to see that it is being carried out.


Mr. PATERSON.: It was a proper promise, then ?
Mr. SAM, HUGHES. In the wrong place.
Bronte-harbour improvements, $8,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete the repairs to the east and west piers which were commenced in 1904-5. This is in the good county of Halton.


David Henderson: I think this work was commenced as far back as four or five years ago. Will this vote complete all the work that the government propose to do in the Bronte harbour, as regards both dredging and the construction of docks ? It is desirable that the work should be completed as early as possible.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The chief engineer informs me that this will probably complete the work.
Cobourg-repairs to piers, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is to make repairs to the piers in Cobourg harbour

where they are mostly needed ; 300 feet of the superstructure are to he rebuilt and filled with stone. The total cost will be $5,000. Nothing has been done yet.


Richard Blain: How much has been expended there up to date ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: $216,349.22. Even before confederation $02,000 was expended.


Samuel Barker: The $3,000 voted last year is not marked as a revote.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: These estimates were prepared in January, and it was expected | that a certain amount would be expended before 30th of June, and therefore we did not mention it as a revote.


Andrew B. Ingram: In the year 1903-4 you expended about $5,000 on this harbour. AYas that done by day labour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is a Canadian dredge which has been working for three or four years at Collingwood, and which is owned by Mr. Boone.


Samuel Barker: Is this the 1 General Meade ' V


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The chief engineer thinks it is the ' Kingsford.'


Andrew B. Ingram: Did it do any work in Sarnia ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


John Barr: Then it has been in Collingwood some years ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: So I am informed by the chief engineer.


John Barr: And other places ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; not during that


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: And you purchased about
50,000	feet of lumber. What is your system for purchasing lumber for harbours of this kind ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The engineer in charge asks for quotations, and makes the purchase from the lowest tenderer. That is the general practice of the department.
Collingwood-harbour improvements, $60,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for further improvements required for Collingwood harbour, to complete the widening of the channel and improving the approaches to the dry-dock. The contract has been atvarded for this work.


Andrew B. Ingram: What will the total expenditure amount to ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


John Barr: AVho are the contractors ?


Mr. BRODEUR C. S.@: Boone for the dredging, and Joseph Battle for the construction of the wharf-the lowest tenderers.


Air. R. U. BORDEN.: With regard to Ocllingwood harbour, my hon. friend from East Simcoe (Air. Bennett), who is unavoidably absent, would like to have it stand over or to have an opportunity to discuss it on some other item.
Air. BRODEUR, There will be an opportunity on the supplementary items for next year.


Andrew B. Ingram: AA'ill they be brought down soon or only a day or two before prorogation ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Probably during next week.


John Barr: Where does this dredge come from ? I w7as not aware that there w7as more than one in that northern region.
period.


Samuel Barker: Is the hon. gentleman quite sure the name is Boone and not Bow7-r.ian ?


Mr BRODEUR.: It is Boone, and it is his ow7n dredge. As far as the department know7s, he is the owner of three or four dredges.


Air INGRAAI.: I notice that the department'did pay Air. Boone for towing a dredge f'om Sarnia to Alaitland.


Air BARKER.: You paid Air. Boone, the year'before last, $15,000 for towing his dredge from Sarnia to Port Alaitland.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That policy has been dropped.


Richard Blain: How7 w7as the $50,000 expended which w7as voted for the Collingwood harbour last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: $42,219.80 were paid to Mr C S Boone for dredging with dredges Nos. 10 and 14. The price was $2.30 per yard.


Air INGRAAI.: And hard-pan $1.40 and mini 35 cents : rock $2.30 per cubic yard.


Robert Laird Borden: To ask this item to stand would involve the standing of them all. I am content to let this pass on the understanding that an opportunity w7ill be given to discuss it on some other item wnth-in reasonable time, or that there will be no objection to reopen the item, if the hon. member for Simcoe so desires.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There will be no objection to that.


Mr BLAIN.: When will this part of the work be finished and the expenditure cease in this harbour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In the season of 1906.


Richard Blain: Is this new w7ork or a continuation of last year's work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is a continuation. The total cost will be $60,000.
Mr, BARR. Do you expect to spend it all this season ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This summer or next. If we can finish before the 1st July next we shall not require another vote, biit if not we shall require a revote next year.


Samuel Barker: I understand you have not spent a dollar yet ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; we have paid to Mr. Boone $42,219 from the 1st July. 1904, up to date ; and to Mr. Cogliill, $0,540, for dredging with dredge No. 7.	_


Samuel Barker: Therefore, the whole $50.000 is spent


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


John Barr: And this additional $60.0*10 will make the total $110,000 ?
Mr. BRODEUR, Yes.


John Barr: Will that finish the work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We expect it will.


Richard Blain: I notice last year that the minister told us that the $50,000 then voted vould complete, and now you are asking $00,000 more. Yet it is the same contract.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Since then there has been a contract let for an addition to the town wharf at the upper end, 75 feet by 40 feet, and besides it has been decided to improve the approaches to the dry-dock.


Mr.   BEAIN@: What is the price for the new work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The same prices as in the original contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: Supposing the season closes, have you a continuation agreement by which the work is renewed by the contractor in the spring ?
. Mr. BRODEUR. There is a contract and it goes on in the spring until completed.


Andrew B. Ingram: So no tenders are called in the spring ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Some new tenders were called for this spring because the method was changed ; it was decided to call for tenders in ail cases for dredging and the contract was awarded to the lowest tenderer.
^ Mr. INGRAM. Where a contract for dredging is given to the lowest tenderer at so much per cubic yard for each class of material, do the department keep a record of the time the dredge is at work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We require some officers on hand to classify, because the price is not the same for clay, sand or boulders, and at the same time to see how much dredging is done.	1


Richard Blain: 


Andrew B. Ingram: So that you have so many cubic yards of rock, &c.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete payments for 1905-0 in connection with the breakwater for the prolongation of the elevator wharf and the landing pier which are being built under contract at Depot Harbour. Tile total cost of the work will be $237,000. The contractors are Messrs. Davis, Haney & Miller.


Andrew B. Ingram: Has the railway contributed anything towards the construction of the work at Depot Harbour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Richard Blain: What is the contract price ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The price is $157,500, and additional riprap foundation $37,500.


Andrew B. Ingram: So that since 1904, when the contract price was $106,000, some new . & utracts have been added ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: In 1903-4 vour contract price was $106,000 ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The original contract was for $195,000. That is to say, the two amounts I have just mentioned. Then there was some riprap foundation and the construction of an addition to the elevator wharf extending from the outer end, 1.350 feet.


Aaron Abel Wright: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They do not pav anything for this.


Aaron Abel Wright: This wharf is vested in the Crown and in the event of the government acquiring rights over the Canada Atlantic, would they have the right to use the* wharf ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is to be used by all companies. At the present time there is one corporation using it a little more than any other company, hut it is for the general use of the public.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the government anticipate any large expenditure by reason of the Grand Trunk Railway taking over the Canada Atlantic ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is nothing decided yet in reference to the government taking the Canada Atlantic.
[DOT]irVE 15. 1903


Andrew B. Ingram: Is there anything being considered ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I thought my hon. friend had reference to the government taking running rights over the Canada Atlantic. There is nothing decided yet as to that.


Andrew B. Ingram: Nothing has been decided, but there is some amount under consideration evidently by reason of the Canada Atlantic being handed over to the Grand Trunk. Am I correct in that ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: No items are being considered at all ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: And there is no anticipation of the expenditure of a largely Increased amount at Depot Harbour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.
you have spent $8,409, and I would like to know where that money was spent ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That was the estimated expenditure, but it was not expended. The chief engineer informs me that it is not likely the contract will be abandoned.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: How much of the work is completed ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We do not know.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has any of it been done ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is no late report, as a matter of fact.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is any work going on ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Could you give an idea of the nature of the work that is being carried on.
Goderich harbour improvement, $70,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is to complete improvements which have been undertaken in the harbour at Goderich. It is to renew a superstructure 111 feet in length on the old original part of the north pier, which is much decayed, clearing the entrance channel of drifted sand, completing repairs to south pier, and the construction of the breakwater. The total probable cost of these works will be $99,000. This is under contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the bon. gentleman state the total expenditure on Goderich harbour up to the present time ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Andrew B. Ingram: I suppose the bon. gentleman has no idea as to the trade being done there ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I understand there is a large grain trade there ; it is one of the important ports of the lake.
Grand Bend breakwater-pier, &c., $15,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete a breakwater being built under contract at Grand Bend ; the amount of the contract is $21,3f>S. This will complete.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: When was the contract let ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: March 26tli, 1904.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Was there not one let before that ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, that was the first contract.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: This is in my own riding and I was there last year. The work \ias not being carried on. I asked a question early in the session and was given to understand that the contract had been abandoned. I was anxious to know whether you bad let another contract. I see


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that the work that is being done now is dredging.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is it being done by contract ?	.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is part of the contract.	;


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: When was the work to be completed ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The contract should be completed June 30, 1905, but I would be surprised if it was completed at that time.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The contract, as I understand from the reply to my question early in the session, was not under way at -all and no work was being carried on. I would naturally think he would know whether the work was being carried on or not.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is not the information now given to me by the officers of the department. But we will look into the matter more closely and see fiow it stands.


Andrew B. Ingram: The $21,000 includes the building of a wharf at Trenton?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: That work was given out in March, 1904, to be completed in 1895, and no work has been done yet although I think we have spent about $298.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I understand that when the contract was awarded, this being a very exposed part of the coast, the contractor could not get his material before it was too late in the season to begin.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I realize the importance of this work, and am anxious to see it carried on as rapidly as possible. But I am a little afraid there has been some carelessness since the time is about expired and nothing practical has been done.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: All the necessary means will be taken to have the work carried on.
Harbours, rivers and bridges-general repairs and improvements to, $20,000.


Samuel Barker: You took $15,000 last year, how much of that was spent?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Samuel Barker: Of this $20,000 asked for this year will any portion of that under any circumstances whatever be applied upon works for which a special vote is>
taken?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, this is for other works. The Auditor General will not permit, where there is a special vote, that we should take anything out of this vote.


Richard Blain: On this general item for dredging harbours, rivers and bridges, I wish to draw the attention of the minister to the Port Credit harbour on Lake Ontario. We have had several promises from the government in respect of that. It is a harbour that should receive some expenditure upon it. There is a small amount of ship-building done. It has a large and important starch factory, and recently a large brickmaking establishment is operating. The surrounding country is rich in agricultural products, fruit growing, &c., and there is a considerable production of building stone which is sent into Toronto. A good many bricks are also sent into Toronto and a great many more could be sent in by boat, if a small sum of money was spent upon the harbour. Some years ago the department sent an engineer, who made a report, and the acting Minister of Public Works of that day stated that as soon as a dredge - was available it would be sent up to do some dredging in that harbour. That promise was repeated from year to year, and I have a promise this year from the Minister of Public Works that something would be done. A part of the year has already gone by and I have not heard anything about a dredge. I would like very much to hear the minister state that something will be spent on that harbour. I am sure the policy of the government will not be to overlook altogether those counties that are not now supporting the government, surely the minister will not apply that stern rule to the province of Ontario. I hope he will look into this question and see if it is not possible this season to send a dredge up there to dredge out a harbour, which is an immediate public necessity. I may add that it is a harbour where a large amount of coal will be brought in on Lake Ontario to supply the farmers of that section, as it is done at other harbours along the north shore of Lake Ontario. A large petition lias been presented to the government containing the names of many supporters of the hon. gentleman, and I am sure the minister is neglecting his own friends when he fails to give attention to this matter. I
hope the old excuse, that ought to be worn out by this time, that no dredge is available, will not be heard this year, and that the minister will see to it "that a small amount, a reasonable amount, of money will be expended there in order that the residents of that village and of that southern section of Toronto township may have such an outlet for their products as is necessary in this growing time.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not know anything about the merits of this case which has been brought to our attention, but I have no doubt that the facts which have been presented by the hon. member will receive careful attention at the hands of the Minister of Public Works when he arrives, and 1 will call his attention to the remarks of the hon. gentleman.
Haiieybury (Lake Temiskaming)-wharf, $2,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for building an enlargement of the outer section of the wharf by adding a block of 100 feet by 20 feet.
Hamilton-harbo-ur improvements, $30,000.


Samuel Barker: This is a revote of $30,000; why was that not spent last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Nothing was done, because there was some question of the purchase of a wharf or of the city giving a wharf.


Samuel Barker: 1 think the engineer is mistaken if he says that is the reason the work was not begun last year. That is a new excuse. This money was voted a year ago, and was the subject of a lively discussion in the press up to the month of November when the elections came off. We had about once a week the statement that $30,000 was going to be expended for this work in Hamilton and about every five or ten days an officer of the government would come up and there would be a discussion with the municipal body. This would be heralded through the press. Then, later on, Major Grey would come up with plans. This went on and on until the elections were over and that was the last of it. It began again this spring and we were told that the government would go on when the city bought a wharf. That was not contemplated last year. I am not objecting to the money. If we got ten times as much we would not be getting in proportion to other places. Localities in the neighbourhood of the hon. minister's constituency and other places get far more than Hamilton. I repeat that I am not objecting to the money, but I want to know why the promise was not kept. There were most faithful promises made week after week all that summer that this work would be begun. We all knew what it meant; the government wanted to get a Liberal in for


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: 7557	JUNE 15. 1905	7558
West Hamilton. West Hamilton lias delivered tlie goods and the city wants the money. Usually the government pays the money and does not get the goods, but this time the city of Hamilton has delivered the goods. Now pay for them.


Mr. ZIMMERMAN.: This work in question is not in West Hamilton but in the constituency of my hon. friend for East Hamilton.


Samuel Barker: But, it was used for the whole city.


Adam Zimmerman: You got the benefit of it. The reason the government did not go on with it last summer was this : It was intended to build a slip about 200 feet in length, but they found when they came to ask for tenders that they would be encroaching on a wharf property adjoining and that they would be held up for damages. The question resolved itself into this : It would be a great saving to the city and it would give them a much greater frontage if they bought the adjoining wharf. They have done that and they can now start their sheet piling right from the wharf now in existence and save 250 or 225 feet of work. We will have a very much better work and it will be better for the city in every way and give them a more complete property.
I may say in regard to the plans that were brought to Hamilton last year that they were brought in good faith.


Samuel Barker: How do you know ?


Adam Zimmerman: It was a great disappointment that the work was not gone on with last year, but it was in the interest of the city of Hamilton that the work was delayed until this year.


Samuel Barker: Does the hou. gentleman say that the city of Hamilton requested the delay in the interest of the city ?


Adam Zimmerman: Unquestionably it is.


Samuel Barker: The hon. gentleman means to assert that ?


Adam Zimmerman: I mean to say that the delay has been in the interest of the city of Hamilton.


Samuel Barker: That is not the question. 1 asked the hon. gentleman if the delay was at the request of the city ?


Adam Zimmerman: I say that it is in the interest of the city, most decidedly and as far as benefiting West Hamilton is concerned my hon. friend is very much mistaken. It was in East Hamilton and he got the benefit of it. He stated at the polls that it was perfectly absurd to expend $30,000, that the amount should be ten times as much and that the government was not doing justice to Hamilton.


Samuel Barker: I said a few minutes ago. If we got ten times as much we would not
get what we deserve. Does the hon. gentleman dispute that ? What I say is this and the hon. gentleman knows it : The government professed to be expending $30,000 last year in Hamilton but it was for the purpose of iniiuencing the election, and it w as used as he knows by the Liberal paper in Hamilton for the purpose of influencing the election. It was so used deliberately and openly a very few weeks before the election, and we had a government engineer there with plans to show that the work was going on immediately. It was all bosh ; they never intended to go on with the work then, but they held it over until this spring, and when the work was to be gone on with this spring they wanted the city to buy the wharf.


Adam Zimmerman: I am satisfied the government acted in good faith.


Samuel Barker: How do you know the government acted in good faith ?


Adam Zimmerman: I know they did. I know it was in the interest of the city of Hamilton and the hon. gentleman knows very well that had that work gone on perhaps it would have been worse for himself.


Samuel Barker: Do you mean that I would have lost some votes ?
Kincardine harbour-repairs to piers and dredging, $2,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is proposed to apply that sum as follows : Widening and deepening the entrance to Kincardine harbour, $],5U0. More or less filling takes place in the spring freshets. Second, repairs, $1,000.


Mr. BLAND.: I would like to ask the hou. minister when he expects the dredge will be at Kincardine harbour. It is very important that the dredging should be done.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The contract has beeii let for dredging and it is expected that the work will go on immediately.


Leonard Thomas Bland: I understand that a year ago the government engineer was there and recommended that the pier be extended further out into the lake to keep the wash from bringing the sand into the entrance.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This question is under consideration.


Leonard Thomas Bland: Some four or five years ago or probably more there was an undertaking instituted ' by the government-I do not know whether the present government or the former government-to construct a dam across the river 40 or 80 rods farther up. The river comes down, runs through the harbour and brings the wash down in the spring of the year and it is from there that most of the sediment is deposited in the harbour. It is believed by the people of the district that this would be a good move, aud I would like to ask the minister if it has ever been contemplated since ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, the diversion of the river has never been contemplated.


Leonard Thomas Bland: It was not the diversion of the river but the building of a dam.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, it has never been considered by the department. The officers will note it.


Leonard Thomas Bland: It was a few years ago, but I do not know by what government.
Lake Temiskaming-wharfs, $3,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is asked to cover the cost cf completing a wharf commenced at Dawson's Point to provide landing and shipping accommodation. This will complete the work.


Aaron Abel Wright: We have already voted a sum for the Haileybury wharf. At what point is this wharf to be constructed ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: At Dawson's Point.


Aaron Abel Wright: Where is Dawson's Foint ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: On the Ontario side.
ill'. W. WRIGHT. Where on the lake is it ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I understand it is at the head of the lake. It is between Wab-bey's bay and the head of Lake Temiskaming.


Samuel Barker: Why do you say ' wharfs ' Are you building several ?


Mr. BRODEL  R.@: It is a mistake ; it should be ' wharf.' We are only building one because we could not build many with this sum.


Richard Blain: What will be the total cost?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Andrew B. Ingram: How far is that from Haileybury ?
3Ir. BRODEUR. About 4 miles.


Mr.   W.@: 'WRIGHT. Is is near New Lis-keard ?
Mr. ilcCOOL. New Liskeard is between Haileybury and Dawson's Point and about 4 miles from Haileybury. Haileybury is in a deep bay and Dawson's Point is" the point beyond that. I suppose it is about 4 miles from New Liskeard. Going around The bay it would he about S miles from Haileybury, but straight across it would be about 4 miles.


Richard Blain: What business is done here ? I suppose this is an important place and that there is no provision for business.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The country is being opened up and there is a very large exportation of lumber and agricultural products on Lake Temiskaming.
Little Current-improvement on Northern
steamboat channel in Georgian bay, $50,000.


Leonard Thomas Bland: 


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is under contract and the total cost will be $190,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: What will be necessary next year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Andrew B. Ingram: Gan the minister give any idea as to the number of vessels that will use this channel ?	*
Mr. BRODEL'R. It is the highway for all the boats passing through the north channel, and is a very important place.


John Barr: Who has the contract ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Boone, at $2.60 per cubic yard ; it is all rock.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where did the demand come from for this large expenditure ?
Mr. BRODEUR, The municipality of Manitowanlng, Victoria Harbour Lumber Company, the mayor of Little Current, the liberal Association of Little Current, the Collingwood Board of Trade.


Samuel Barker: Has the contract for the whole work been let to this contractor ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Oniy for the present work ; it can be stopped at any moment.
Matchedash bay-improvement of channel between Fesserton and Wabashene, $8,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The contractor i* Mr. Prendergast, the lowest tender.


Andrew B. Ingram: We should like to know more about this vote.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The work is to secure 11 feet at low water on the Georgian boy for a minimum width of 1(X) feet ; the depth now available being only 1% feet.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who made the demand for this work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is a petition in the department of the 8th of April, 1964, from the residents of the townships and a number of villages in the vicinity.
Meaford harbour-improvements, $66,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is to make provision for building a new pier at the north side of the harbour, and dredging in front of the pile work. It is under contract and the contractors are Kastner and Porter of Wiarton. The contract price is $59,800.


Richard Blain: What is the total estimated cost ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: $74,000, including dredging.
Midland harbour-improvements, $7,000.
Mr. BRODEL'R, This vote is asked for dredging slips and $7,000 pile wharfs in Midland harbour, and making most urgent repairs to the approaches to these wharfs. The estimated cost is $7,000.


Samuel Barker: Was the $20,000 voted last year all spent ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes, mostly in dredging.


John Barr: Who has the contract ?


Mr. BRODEER  A.@: Macdonald.
Newcastle-repairs to pier, $3,300.


Mr.   BRODEER@: The total cost will be $3,300.


Richard Blain: When will it be completed ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: It will be done by day labour during this season.
Oliphant wharf, $1,000.


Mr.   BRODEER@: I move that this item be struck out; the work has been done.


Andrew B. Ingram: How does it come that it appears in the estimates ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: When these estimates were prepared in January last we did not think the work would be done during the present fiscal year but it lias been done.
Ottawa-wharf at foot of Rideau canal, $5,000.


John Barr: What about this work ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: The Ottawa Improvement Commission is about to do some work which may have an effect on this wharf, and it has been delayed in order that we may know what the Ottawa Improvement Commission may do.


Uriah Wilson: How is it that you did not know about that before you prepared this estimate ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: The intention of the department is to combine plans with those ot the Improvement Commission.


Uriah Wilson: I suppose when this estimate was prepared the department was expected to do all the work ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: It is expected that the work will be done by the department, but we will combine the plans of the Improvement Commission and those of the government.	.


Uriah Wilson: What change do you expect to be made ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: It is very hard to know at present, because we are awaiting the decision of the Improvement Commission in order to make our plans.
Mr. E'RIAH WILSON. Is that going to increase the expense of the work ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: No ; it is simply to combine the plans.
Owen Sound harbour-dredging and pile protection works, &c.. $10,000.


John Barr: Who is doing this work ?


Mr. BRODEER E. F.@: Bowman.


David Henderson: This is in Mr. Bowman's district, I understand ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: Ill was the lowest tenderer.
Mr. BARIt, is the work done by contract, or is it at so much per cubic yard ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: It is at 15 cents per cubic yard for clay, sand, gravel and boulders.


John Barr: Will this finish the work in Owen Sound ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No; I am informed that some more dredging will have to be done.


John Barr: Then this is not a contract ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: It is like all the dredging contracts, at so much per yard for the season.


David Henderson: I suppose, as a matter of fact, this Is a sort of hardy annual V U comes up every year.


Mr.   BRODEER@: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the total expenditure up to date on the Owen Sound harbour ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: $379,000 up to the 31st of December, 1904. Prior to confederation $13,000 was expended.


John Barr: Can the hou. gentleman give us any idea of bow much it will yet take to complete the Owen Sound harbour ?


Mr.   BRODEER@: So far as tbe piers and wharfs are concerned, everything is finished now ; but there is always some dredging to be done.
Parry Sound wharf, $8,000.


Mr.   BRODEER@: Tbis is under contract. The vote is to make provision for the construction of a pile wharf, 30 feet wide and 500 feet long, on the north side of Parry Sound harbour. The amount of the contract is $8,935. The total cost is estimated to be $9,800.
Petewawa wharf, $4,000.


Mr.   BRODEER@: Tbis is to make provision for completing a pile wharf, with a 4 iew to affording sufficient accommodation for steamers plying between Pembroke and Des Joachims. The total estimated cost is $6,000.
Pembroke wharf, $20,000.


Mr.   BRODEER@: This is under contract. The contractors are Messrs. Poupore & Company. This wharf is at the foot of Albert street, which leads to the market square and the centre of the town. It is 1,720 feet long, and will reach a depth of 10 feet at low water on the Ottawa river.



Penetanguishene-dredging and other improvements, $10,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is for dredging in the main channel in order to meet present requirements, and also for repairing the reformatory lighthouse pier. The total cost will be $32,000. The dredging is under contract to the Owen Sound Dredging Company, the lowest tenderer.


John Barr: What are the names of the people in that company ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We do not have the names of the shareholders.


Uriah Wilson: Do not the hon. gentleman's officers know ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


John Barr: Is this the same company that has the Owen Sound dredging ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.
Point Edward-dredging, $17,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is under contract. It is for the dredging of a channel of a minimum width of 200 feet to a depth of 21 feet, extending for a distance of about
51,000	feet. The contract has been awarded to the Sarnia Bay Lumber Company, the lowest tenderer.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where is that dredging done ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Near the Grand Trunk Railway freight sheds, and a new grain elevator to the south of those sheds in a southerly direction to deep water. This is to remove the shoals from the sides of the channel.
Port Burwell-harbour improvements, $50,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is asked to construct the following works, which are recommended by the chief engineer : A substructure of ballasted woodwork and a superstructure of concrete, to protect effectually the entrance to the harbour formed by the Dominion government at Port Burwell at an expenditure of $220,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who is the chief engineer of the work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Lafleur. Mr. Uriel is the engineer at the work.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is no change in the engineer at the works ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.
Port Bruce-wharf, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The estimated cost is
$11,000. *


Andrew B. Ingram: Is that intended for dredging purposes ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There will certainly be some dredging to it.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Andrew B. Ingram: Will that be taken out of the $11,000 ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.
Port Dover-harbour improvements, $5,200.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for completing the renewals and repairs commenced in 1904-5 at Port Dover piers.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Has any successor been appointed to the late Major Gray, engineer in charge ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, Mr. Pink, who was resident engineer in London, lias been transferred to there.
Port Hope-repairs to piers and dredging, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the estimated cost of the repairs necessary to the harbour works. The total estimated cost is $4,913.
Port Stanley-harbour improvements, $70,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for carrying out the works during the fiscal year on the two breakwaters, let by contract, in order to afford protection and greater accommodation and facilities called for by the present and prospective large increase of traffic at that port, particularly the landing of large quantities of coal from the United States for consumption in western Ontario. Total probable cost $115,000.
River Otonabee-dredging at Peterborough,


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is done by the government dredge.


Samuel Barker: Are the $1 1000 voted last year spent ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.
Rondeau harbour-improvements, $70,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for carrying on the work during the fiscal year
1905-6 on the breakwater at Rondeau. The construction work on the breakwater is to be let by contract; and there will be day iabour'on the repairs .as well which are required on the entrance to the piers. Total cost estimated $111,000.
Sarnia-dredging, $10,800.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is under contract to the Sarnia Bay Lumber Company at 17 cents per yard.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is that the company which is dredging at Point Edward ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Richard Blain: How much will the dredge earn per day at that price ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That dredge will do about 1,000 yards per day and earn $170.


Samuel Barker: Is this the company which has a lumber yard where the works are *being done ?
.JUNE 15. 1905


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is probably the same company.


Samuel Barker: Did not this lumber company get work done by Mr. Boone at the expense of the government.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The engineer does not know.


Andrew B. Ingram: Mr. Boone had the work at Sarnia at $12 an hour. Are you quite sure he has nothing to do with the work at this point ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are ; it is not he.
Saugeen-Improvements at mouth, $10,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to carry out the works necessary to afford safe landing and shelter for shipping. It will require $9,750 to complete.


Leonard Thomas Bland: I was talking to Mr. Bowman the other day and he told me the channel had changed.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It was awarded to Mr. Bowman.


Leonard Thomas Bland: What is the price ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Twenty-five cents per cubic yard. It is hard pan.
Spanish river-dredging, $10,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is a revote. We could not do anything last year because we could not find any dredge to do the work.
Mr. BARKER, What is the depth at Spanish river ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Not more than five feet and we shall make it nine or ten feet.


Samuel Barker: That will mean a very deep dredging. I thought that Spanish river was really not a harbour at all and you are constructing a harbour where there is none.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We are dredging the channel. There is a shoal there.
Thessalon-breakwater, $8,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete the works in connection with the breakwater and pier. It is under contract. The amount of the contract is $19,000, and the contractors are Boyle Bros., of Sault Ste. Marie.
Thornbury-dredging, $6,750.
Mr. BRODEUR, This is under contract to H. W. Prendergast at 14 cents per yard. It is clay and sand.
Toronto harbour-eastern entrance, $28,000.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I have to call attention to a matter of considerable and immediate importance to the shipping interests at Toronto, and I regret that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is not here. I refer to the inadequacy of the alarms or fog signals or bell buoys at the eastern piers, and the entrance to Toronto harbour. The 240*
fog-horn instead of being, as marine men claim it should be, on the southeastern extremity of the pier, that is out in the lake is far inland, practically in very nearly the centre of Toronto bay. The fogs of the month of June are upon us and there is a serious menace to navigation at Toronto, because of what I have mentioned. The matter was brought to the attention of the House about this time last year by the late member for West Toronto (Mr. E. F. Clarke) who spoke on the matter in the House on June 13, 1904, and explained the condition that existed from the fogs. That condition exists to-day because of the fogs prevalent on the north shore of Lake Ontario at this season of the year. On June 15 of last year the government's attention was again called to the matter by the late member for West Toronto and the Minister of Marine in answer to Mr. Clarke's question admitted that complaints had been received by the department because of the insufficient equipment of bell buoys and bells at the eastern gap at Toronto. Complaints he said had been received from the following navigation companies : Lake Ontario, Richelieu and Ontario, Niagara and St. Catharines and Niagara Navigation Company. As was pointed out on that occasion, numbers of excursion parties), composed principally of women and children, are carried on the vessels of these lines at this season, and the absence of proper fog signals certainly was an absolute menace to life and property. The minister then promised he would rectify the matter, and said :
Before the receipt of these complaints the department had already taken steps to establish a powerful fog alarm operated by compressed air at this place, and it is ex-pected that the same will be in operation this summer.
That was last summer, but nothing has yet been done. The matter is one of urgency, and I call the attention of the minister to it, and urgently appeal to him that something ought to be done at once to have a fog horn placed iu proper position. It must not be overlooked that these piers extend far into the lake on one side and into the bay on the other, affording a very narrow channel for this entire distance and it is almost impossible to make this channel in foggy weather unless there are proper lights and signal equipments. It is a matter of importance to the marine men of Toronto and along the north shore of Lake Ontario as well as to the people of Toronto. It would not involve much expense but simply a rearranging of the fog signals which are necessary for the protection of life and property.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: My hon. friend knows that this matter does not come under the Department of Public Works, but under Marine and Fisheries. The Department of Public Works is simply looking after the l construction of wharfs and harbours ; the

equipment referred to appertains to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. I shall certainly call the attention of the Minister of Marine to these facts.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I wish to speak of the expenditure for the eastern entrance to the harbour.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I will explain what it is. It is proposed to apply this amount in driving sheet piles 25 feet long along' the north end of the eastern pier at the eastern entrance of the harbour for a length of
1,400	feet. The estimated cost will be $28,000.


Mr. BRODEER  A.@: C, MACDONELL. Has the contract been let ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, the contract has not been let.


Mr. BRODEER  A.@: 0. MACDONELL. Can the minister say when it will be let ? The work is urgently needed. Tenders were called for in November.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Not for this work. No tenders have been called for because the money was not voted.


Angus Claude Macdonell: You do not always wait for that to award the contract?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We have to wait until we have the money from the House.


Angus Claude Macdonell: It is not always the custom I understand?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Oh, yes, it is.
Toronto harbour-extension of Island breakwater, $60,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision towards the protection of the lake shore of the island at Toronto harbour by extending the present breakwater in a westerly direction, 1,500 feet. Two rows of sheet piles will be driven 8 feet apart from 6 feet to 18 feet, the tops remaining 6 feet above water level. I cannot give the estimated cost because we are calling for tenders now.


Angus Claude Macdonell: If I am correctly informed tenders for this work were called for and received, and after having been held by the department for some considerable time were returned to the tenderers without any explanation for their return and without any contract being awarded. The same thing occurred in January. Tenders were again called for and after having been submitted to the department with the usual deposits, they were again returned without any contract being awarded and without any explanation. This work is urgently needed and I would like to have some statement from the minister as to the reason why tenders were called tor on these two occasions and returned without the work being awarded.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: , Mr. BRODEUR. The specifications call for steel piles. I understand the tenders put in gave different qualities of piles which rendered it impossible for the department to judge which was the best or even the lowest tender, and so they had to return the cheques and tenders. We have called for new tenders.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Does that explanation cover both occasions ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


Angus Claude Macdonell: I would again like to bring to the notice of the government the fact that although these estimates are brought down for this special work this does not attempt to cover the necessary work at Toronto harbour. These are works connected with tile outskirts of the harbour, the breakwater and the island, but the real work of the harbour of the city of Toronto is being neglected and has been for many years past. That harbour is filling up rapidly from the sediment and deposit made by the Don river. That deposit and silt'is coming down that river to an alarming extent each year, and is rapidly filling up the entire bay or what is called Toronto harbour. The government have had engineers from the department there, in fact recently, to endeavour to arrange some scheme by which that harbour could be protected. The harbour is filling up according to the estimates of the government's own engineers, at the rate of about five acres of silt, to a depth of about 10 feet every year. The result is that about one half of Toronto harbour to-day is not navigable. Only the parts that remain navigable are those that are taken over at the expense of the harbour commissioners and the City of Toronto, who dredge at their own expense the various piers where steamboats and vessels land. I hope the government will see fit to make some appropriation in the estimates for the work of dredging the harbour proper, and also for diverting the course of the River Don. I would ask the minister to see if something cannot be done with regard to this matter, and to make an appropriation in the supplementaries for that purpose.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I will be glad to call to the attention of the Minister of Public Works the remarks of my hon. friend with regard to Toronto harbour. But he must admit that a good deal of money has been expended on that harbour in late years.


Angus Claude Macdonell: The money has not been spent in Toronto harbour proper, but upon breakwaters. I would further point out that"about four years ago the city spent about $100,000 on this particular work, on the distinct understanding with the then Minister of Public Works, that for all time thereafter the city of Toronto should be relieved of any further expenditure regarding this particular work, and

the government at that time took upon its own shoulders and took off the shoulders of the city, the work of maintaining for ever Toronto harbour, the breakwaters and approaches thereto. The city has done its share, and now we think the government should do their share. Toronto harbour is one of very great importance, practically the only harbour of refuge and shelter on the north side of Lake Ontario the whole way up. It is not only a matter of local interest, but of provincial interest. Toronto harbour is just as much a government harbour as that of Quebec or Halifax. The shipping is very extensive, and we think the city is entitled to more consideration than tlie government has given it, or than these estimates provide for. We hope that in the supplementaries some provision will be made for dredging the harbour proper. It is a work that must be done sooner or later.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: As regards the treatment of Toronto harbour, I do not think the hon. gentleman has any reason to blame the government. If I were to make a comparison between Toronto harbour and Montreal harbour-I do not see any appropriation for Montreal, but there is an appropriation of $88,000 voted this year for Toronto harbour.


Angus Claude Macdonell: Does the minister consider the freight sheds recently erected in Montreal harbour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are not erected by this government, but by the city of Montreal, the government is not paying a cent for these sheds and all these improvements. But some years ago the government built a wharf down the river at a cost of $500,000 or $600,000.
Wiarton-dredging, $9,000.


Leonard Thomas Bland: Where is the dredging to take place in that harbour ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to dredge the harbour to a depth of 16 feet at low water between the town dock and the breakwater.


Leonard Thomas Bland: Will the minister inform me whether any dredging is to be done at the new cement works that have been started there ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is not contemplated now.


John Barr: Who has the contract for dredging ?


Mr. BRODEER E. F.@: Bowman.
Lake Dauphin-lowering of, $2,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is called for by the resident! engineer in Manitoba for the use of commerce, and for clearing the bed of the river of boulders, gravel, &e., below the entrance.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE.: How much has been spent on that work altogether ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: From confederation to date the total amount spent there is $32,000.


Mr. STAPLES.: When was this work begun ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Four or five years ago.


William D. Staples: I understand that a petition has been sent down asking for some other Improvements on Fairford river.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy minister does not remember having received a petition.


William D. Staples: I think it would be well to know the nature of that petition before this item is passed. I would like to have the item stand over.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The petition has no connection with the Fairford river.


William D. Staples: I think it has a good deal to do with the place where this dredge is working and the railway.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There will be something in the supplementary estimates for further improvements in Manitoba, and we will then have the information.


Mr. BURROWS.: I am perhaps more familiar with this locality than the minister. Unfortunately there is only one dredge that has been employed on Lake Manitoba for the last four years, on different parts of the lake, principally at the Fairford river.
The whole of Lake Manitoba is in my district. and I am confronted with this difficulty, that there is only one dredge on the lake, although dredging requires to be done at different points. I have been pressing the department myself to have works undertaken in other places. My hon. friend from Macdonald is interested in Oak Point, but the difficulty is that the department has not sufficient equipment to do all this work at one time. I do not think the work at Oak Point is as necessary as it is at certain other places on the lake* but I can quite understand the hon. gentleman raising the objection he does, because this is in his own constituency. While I am on my feet I just wish to ask the hon. acting Minister of Public Works to see that the dredging work which has been started on Lake Manitoba is continued as vigorously as possible, because it is beyond tbe power of one dredge to carry out all tbe work that is needed at the present time. The difficulty is that each locality asks that its work shall be done first.


William James Roche: Was there not a new . dredge purchased a year or two ago ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes; there was a dredge purchased, but it was purchased more than two years ago. I may say in regard to what my hon. friend (Mr. Burrows) has said, that the department Is considering now the question of providing further equipment for

Lake Manitoba. I do not think it can be done this year, but the government is seriously considering the question.


William D. Staples: I had occasion last fall to go up to Lake St. Francis, and there was a dredge working there a mile or two from Lake Manitoba. It was landed there last winter.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: That was on Lake St. Francis ?
Mr. STAPLES, lit was only a short distance from St. Laurent. I know that the people sent a petition to the government.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: When ?


William D. Staples: Since this session began. That petition is in connection with this particular piece of work that I spoke of. I might also ask the hon. acting Minister of Public Works what has been done re certain claims that the people are making up there for damages occasioned to certain property by work done by the department ? I have received several letters from Mr. M. J. Mulverhill asking for compensation in connection with this particular piece of work.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The deputy minister is not very sure, but he thinks these claims for damages have been referred to the engineer for consideration and report.


William D. Staples: I know they have been referred to the engineer several times, but still the claim is being made.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The chief engineer informs me that he is now considering the question of these claims.


William D. Staples: When may I expect an answer as to what is going to be done ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Probably when the supplementary estimates are brought down he will have completed his report, and the minister will be in a position to give the hon. gentleman the information.


Mr. TAYLOR.: And when the supplementary estimates come down the hon. gentleman will be able to give some information about the petition ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: These claims are now engaging the attention of the chief engineer and the department, and we will probably be in a position when the supplementary estimates come down to give the necessary information and findings.


Andrew B. Ingram: Have the department purchased a tug in connection with this work yet ? Representations have been made, I understand, that it was necessary to have a staunch tug to handle this dredge.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes; we have purchased a tug.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where was it built, and Horn whom was-it purchased ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 


Theodore Arthur Burrows: The tug which was bought by the government was one which had been used on Lake Manitoba for a series of years, a tug called the ' Carberry,' and operated, by the quarry company. This quarry company went out of existence and they sold the tug, I think, at a cheap rate to the government. The government bought the tug instead of building a new one.


Andrew B. Ingram: For what price ?


Theodore Arthur Burrows: I could not say the price.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am Informed the price was $9,500.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then it must have been a pretty staunch tug.


Theodore Arthur Burrows: It is a good tug.
Lake Dauiphin-lowering of, $2,500.
Ml-. BRODEUR. This is a revote.


William James Roche: This is an item that has appeared for several years. Has there been any expenditure thus far ; and if so, how much ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes ; in 1902-3 there was an expenditure of $470, and, in 1903-4, an expenditure of $224.


William James Roche: Has the government received any letters or petitions protesting against the damage resulting to the settlers in that neighbourhood because of this work ?
Air. BRODEUR, The officers are not aware of any complaints.
Lake St. Francis outlet-construction of guide piers and dredging, $6,800.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is asked to provide for the dredging of the channel through the basin excavated at the inner end of Lake St. Francis outlet.


George Taylor: Is it under contract ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No ; it is being done by the government dredge.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is this the same dredge ? Mr. BRODEUR. Yes.
Quarry channel at Narrows, Lake Manitoba- dredging approach to landing and harbour. $1,500.
Mr. BRODEUR, This is to provide for improving the approach to the landing and harbour of Quarry Channel, at the Narrows, Lake Manitoba.


George Taylor: Has there been anv expenditure ?	*


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The resident engineer states that owing to the fact that the dredge ' Manitoba ' was fully employed on Lake St. Francis, it was found impossible to touch the work at Quarry Channel during the first six months of the fiscal year, nor can it be done during the remainder of the fiscal year. -

Selkirk-extension of wharf, $1,500.


Mr BRODEUR.: This is called for by the resident engineer to provide for repairs.


Andrew B. Ingram: There has been some money expended on this already ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes ; we built the wharf, and there has been an expenditure of some $17,713.


George Taylor: By contract?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: No ; these are repairs. Mr. INGRAM. By day's work ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: Yes.
Wharf on Lake Winnipeg at Gimli-repairs. $5,000.	.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: This vote is asked to provide for building an additional wing, 100 feet in length by 20 feet wide, at the outer end of the government wharf at Gimli, Lake Winnipeg.
White Mud river-dredging at mouth of, $1,500.
(Mr. BRODETJR. This is to be expended in widening and deepening the channel through the bar in Lake Manitoba, at the mouth of "White Mud river.


Richard Blain: Does the minister know what wages are paid ; are they high in British Columbia ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: They are not very high.
Columbia river-improvements above Golden, $3,000.	.


Richard Blain: What is the total estimated cost of this ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: It will require about $10,000 more.
Columbia river-improvements below Golden, $3,000.


Richard Blain: What is the total' cost ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: This is expected to complete the work.
Columbia river below Hevelstoke-improvement of navigation to Arrow Head, $5,000.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: This is to improve the Columbia river where it enters Arrow Head lake by constructing a wing dam. The object is to confine the waters to a narrow channel in order to give sufficient strength of current to reknove the silt at the foot of the island and allow logs to pass at any state of the water. It is done by day labour.
Winnipegosls-dredging channel at the mouth of the Mossy river, $5,000.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: This vote is asked for to continue the work of dredging a channel 6 feet deep at low water on Lake Winnipe-gosis, at the mouth of the Mossy river.
Northwest Territories-harbours, rivers and bridges-general repairs and improvements, $5,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: How much of this vote was spent last year ?


Mr.   BRODETJR@: 

British' Columbia-Anderson and Kennedy lakes-clearing outlets, $2,500.


Richard Blain: Will this complete the work? Mr. BRODEUR. Yes, it is supposed to. Chilliwack-wharf, $1,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is for accommodation of fishermen and landing facilities for two lines of railway steamers. This is a new work estimated to cost $3,000.
Columbia river-general improvements, $lo,-000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for diverting the channel of the Columbia river to prevent further erosion of the banks, estimated cost $15,000.
Columbia river-removal of obstructions above Revelstoke, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For removal of dangerous rocks and boulders on the 50 mile stretch between Revelstoke and Deadman s rapids. The work is to be done by day labour.


Richard Blain: Is there an inspector on the work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is a local inspector.


Richard Blain: What is he paid ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think we pay $125 per month.


Richard Blain: What proportion of the total expenditure will the inspecting cost ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: We generally add 10 per cent to the cost of the work, but it 'never comes to that.
Fraser river-Improvements of ship channel, protection works, &c., $25,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for maintaining, renewing and' strengthening present works for the improvement of the ship channel and the protection of the banks from erosion ; also for wharfs and other incidental works in connection with this important highway of navigation.


Richard Blain: Who is doing this work ? Mr. BRODEUR. We have an inspector. Mr BLAIN. Who recommends the appointment of these inspectors ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I suppose it is the member for the county.


Richard Blain: Have they any special qualifications' for this work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They must have some experience.
1 Mr. BLAIN. Who is the inspector here ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is for protection work required for the safety of this wharf and the erection thereon of a warehouse, and also to prevent tile erosion by the river.


Mr.   BRAUN@: AY hat: are you erecting a warehouse for ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: freight in.
ni<^rV-MACT5ER80X- rt is for the accommodation of the farmers along there.
North Thompson river-improvements, $5,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is for the removal ot obstructions to navigation in the river.


Richard Blain: Is this a new work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No. AYe had a vote last year of $5,000, which was expended.
abfe1'' R' L BOBDm Is the ^er navig-


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.
ri\-er	M'hat is the traffic on that


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are now two a.^camboats plying on both branches of the
Salmon river-removal of driftwood and other obstructions, $1,000.	1


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to complete the
AY OIK ;


David Henderson: This is not for the purpose of promoting navigation, but rkther toi the purpose of enabling mill owners to float logs. Is that the usual policy of the government ?	- lue
BB0DEUR- This is required for con-the "ork of deepening the iuuer naibour to a uniform depth of 17 feet.


Richard Blain: 
Mr.   BRAIN@: AVhat does it cost per day to operate a dredge in British Columbia ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: About $125.


Robert Laird Borden: AA'liat is the total cost of this work ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The total amount ex-the harbour so far has been $330, OOO. This is simply to carry on the dredg-mg ot the harbour which is required every year.


Robert Laird Borden: Is this to continue for ever ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: AA'e shall have to continue it for several years to come.


Richard Blain: Does any of the removed material come back or is new material removed every year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: New material is removed every year.
Williams Head quarantine station-imm-ove-ments, $10,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is required to complete the renewal of 71 miles of service pipe 41 miles of it is already placed. This is done by day's work.
Harbours and rivers-generally, $8,500.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is the usual vote, the amount expended last year was $8,547.
Dredging-dredge vessel repairs, $75,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 
Mr.   I@: 
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for defraying the cost of the general repairs required to all machinery, dredges, tugs, scows and barges of the government m the different provinces in the Dominion, namely : the maritime provinces. $25,000 [DOT] Quebec and Ontario, $29,800 ; Alanitoba' $7,000 ; British Columbia, $10,000 ; and unforeseen expenses, $2,800.


Richard Blain: AA'hat is the life of a dredge that works every year ?


Air BRODEUR.: AA'e have a dredge in British Columbia which has been in existence about twenty years. It is getting old hut it is still giving good service.


Richard Blain: 
JFXE 15. 1905
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make provision for the construction of a steel dredge that will carry a two-cubic yards steel dipper hoisted by a single wire rope from the main engine, and will be able to dredge from 0 feet to 28 feet deep. It is intended to work in both fresh and salt water. It ha* been made by contract, the amount of the contract being 819.550.
New dredging plant-Ontario and Quebec, $65,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is to provide new dredging plant in Ontario and Quebec called for by the chief acting engineer, namely : New dredge to replace the dredge 'Challenge'; new hull for dredges No. 6 and ' Nipissing new tug for dredge ' Nipis-sing.' new tug; new hull and boiler for tug ' Sensation ' ; two sets of swinging engines ; two pull backs ; new locomotive boiler, and unforeseen expenses.


David Henderson: Why were those new scows and other implements required? What became of the former ones?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The former ones were too old.
New dredging plant-Manitoba, including
self-propelling snag boat	$10,000
New tug for dredge, Manitoba	10,500


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the construction and purchase of the following new dredging plant to be operated in the province of Manitoba namely :	A
properly equipped self-propelling snag boat for work in Assiniboine and Red rivers ; a staunch tug to accompany the newly acquired dipper dredge in Manitoba, which is operating on the lake of the same name.


Andrew B. Ingram: How much is that to cost?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The estimated cost ;s 825.500.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will that mean any additional boats?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: A tug and snag boat.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who made the boats?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are not made yet.


David Henderson: Why not ask for
sufficient money at once?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The contract for the snag boat has been given lo the Poison Iron Works, and the chief engineer thinks the price Is 829,000. The contract has been given since the estimates were prepared.


David Henderson: How are you going to pay for all this plant when you onlv ask $25,500?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There was money voted last year.


David Henderson: Has any portion been paid?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, we pay only on delivery.


David Henderson: That vote will lapse the 1st July.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is provided in the contract that some amounts may be paid on progress estimates, and a part of the estimate for the current year will be paid.


Samuel Barker: Provided some work be done ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Ves.
New dredging plant-British Columbia, including new snag boat to replace * Sampson,' and new dredge to replace ' Mudlark,' also an additional dipper dredge, &c., $150,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to make special provision for the following dredging plant urgently needed in British Columbia. Amount of contract for the construction of a new snag boat to replace the old worn out ' Sampson,' $22,500 ; amount of contract for the construction of a tug with steel hull to attend the dredge to be built to replace the dilapidated worn out ' Mudlark,' $24,750; two new dredges, one hydraulic, $120,000 and one dipper, $70,000 ; four new hopper scows, 300 cubic yards capacity, $32,000; new snag boat for Skeena river, $25,000; to cover unforeseen expenses, inspection, Ac., $5,750.


George Taylor: Who is building this plant?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: William Turpin of Victoria is building the two first items under contract.
New dredging plant generally, $150,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: It is proposed to apply during the fiscal year this money in the construction of new plant urgently needed to meet the exigencies of the government dredging service throughout the Dominion.


Mr. WILMOT.: With regard to the new dredging done, I would like to refer to the dredging being done in the harbour of St. John. I understand it requires a special dredge and would like to know what kind of a dredge is required.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There is nothing decided as to that yet, but the matter is under consideration.
Dredging-Maritime provinces, $155,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is required to operate during the fiscal year the government edredging plant of the maritime provinces. namely, the 'St. Lawrence.' the 'Canada,' the ' New Dominion,' the ' Prince Edward.' the ' George McKenzie,' the ' Cape Breton,' the ' New Brunswick,' tug ' Critic.' tug ' Iioma,' ' W. S. Fielding,' new sand pump dredge, hire of tugs for long tows, &c.

Dredging-Quebec and Ontario, $150,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for the working expenses of the dredging plant and stone lifters, the property of the Dominion government, and operated by the Department of Public Works, and to pay for work to be dope by dredging plant owned by private individuals. Working expenses of dredge ' International,' tugs and scows ; dredges ' Progress,' 'No. 6,' ' Challenge,' Ni-pissing,' ' Bake Nipissing,' 'Ontario,' 'Queen,'
' St. Louis,' 'Richelieu,' 'Sir Richard,' 'Niths-dale,' tugs ' Montmorency ' and ' Nora.'
Dredging-Manitoba, $20,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to cover working expenses of the dredge ' Winnipeg,' tug ' Sir Hector,' dredge ' Manitoba ' and other attendant vessels employed in Manitoba, especially in the Red river at the mouth of Lake Winnipeg, and also dredging required on Lake Manitoba.
Dredging-British Columbia, $40,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This vote is required to provide for working expenses of the dredging plant owned by the department in British Columbia which consists of the dredge ' King Edward,' the snag boat ' Sampson ' and dredge * Mudlark,' the tug ' Princess ' aud the dredge ' Nakusp ' with attendant vessels.
St. Maurice district-improvements to boom works to facilitate the floating and storage of logs, &c., $40,000.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: This is to provide for heavy repairs, improvements and new works required, in addition to ordinary repairs provided under the head of maintenance, so as to establish facilities for the descent of timber on the St. Maurice, required by the extensive pulp mills and other large manufacturing establishments.


David Henderson: We were informed by the right hon. the First Minister the other night that he thought the time was close at hand when the employment of cullers by the government to measure timber could be dispensed with. It seems to me this is a kindred question. I think the time has arrived when our lumbermen who are engaged in a profitable business, could [DOT] do without this increased expenditure from year to year by the government in the way of improving facilities for the purpose of floating and storing their logs. We might as well pass votes to furnish horses and ploughs for farmers to do their work as to furnish booms and slides for a lumberman to get his logs down. I do not see the difference ; I think there is as much "in one case as in another.


Mr. LANCASTER.: He is a richer man.


David Henderson: Possibly as my hon. friend suggests the lumberman is a rich man, a man of wealth and influence and in Mr. BRODEUR.
that way he can command a little more attention, but it does seem to me that the government are simply adopting the policy that was adopted 30 or 40 years ago when the lumbering industry was not so profitable as it is to-day. There was a time when it was necessary for the government to do something to aid in getting out timber and logs, but now that logs and timber are practically worth five times as much as they were 25 years ago, perhaps more than that,
I will undertake to say more than five times as much, and it does not cost any more to take a log down the river, I do not see why we should continue to foster this infant industry. It is a species of protection to which I "would think the minister would object very much. He is opposed to granting a little protection to a man engaged in manufacturing the wool produced on Canadian farms ; he insists on opening the door and allowing foreign blankets to come in and monopolize the markets of this country. He has no regard for the farmer who wants to sell his wool, but when a poor lumberman whose product has increased in value five times what it was 25 or 30 years ago. wants a river cleaned out, or booms and slides prepared, he is ready to 'bring down his estimate for $40,000 on a single river in order to allow a poor lumberman to get his logs out. There is a great deal about this that will not bear inspection, and a great deal that will bear very strong criticism. I must protest against this and I hope the minister will take it into consideration and see if it is a vote that the government can really justify. I assume they have put it into the estimates without much serious consideration simply because there was a similar vote last year and the year before, without considering the changed conditions in the country. We are told it is a growing time, values have increased, and lumber has become worth five times as much as before without increased cost of production, but the government have gone on increasing the assistance to the rich lumberman when he has aetaally made his fortune out of the increased price of the timber. I think instead 'of putting slides and booms in we ought to put a duty on timber so that the government could recoup the country for what they have expended in bygone years in the construction of slides and booms. This is one instances where the finances of the country can be served and guarded. It is a vote for which I can see no use aud is one of those things that get into the estimates and remain there, I fear, without due consideration or thought as to their necessity.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: If I may rely upon the information given to me by the chief engineer I do not think this is1 a bad investment because we have just received a report to the effect that the slides and booms on the River St. Maurice are giving 3 per cent on the -money invested. These in-


JUITE 15. 1905
[Stage Direction]
vestments have been made many years ago and my friend perhaps thought no revenue accrued to the government. There is no money expended properly speaking, because the money was invested many years ago, and now gives a revenue of 3 per cent. I do not think he can complain. If we left the works there the lumbermen might not keep them up and we would lose our money.
David Henderson: Would the minister give a statement of the money expended in the St. Maurice district in the construction of slides and booms since confederation ?
I doubt very much if we are getting 3 per cent on the investment or even one-third of one per cent.


Mr.   BRODETJR@: These works were begun in 1851, and for keeping in repairs and for construction from 1851 to June 30. 1867, they cost $269,000, and for staff and repairs from 1855 to 1867, $118,000.


David Henderson: From 1867 ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The total construction was $1,430,850.


David Henderson: What revenue did you derive from them last year ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The gross revenue so far has been $458,015.50. We received last year 1902-3 $29,232 and the estimated revenue for the next year will be $42,000.


Mr. KENNEDY.: I think that the hon. member for Halton has been making wild statements. I understood him to say that lumber is worth live times what it was a few years ago.


David Henderson: My hon. friend, I think from Cape Breton (Mr. Johnston), was making a wise statement ; I did not catch it.


Alexander Johnston: I would not mind characterizing it as a wild statement.


David Henderson: I said a wise statement. What did the hon. gentleman understand me to say, because I think he did not repeat me correctly ?


Alexander Johnston: My hon. friend beside me (Mr. Kennedy) understood you to say that lumber had increased in value five times in recent years.


David Henderson: The hon. gentleman did not quote my words, I made no such statement as that.


Alexander Johnston: I did not say you did.


David Henderson: I said 25 or 30 years ago, and I will undertake to say there is a great deal of lumber worth to-day five times as much.


James Buckham Kennedy: I have been 37 years in business, and the price of lumber has never increased to that extent.


David Henderson: The hon. gentleman may be correct, where he lives, I am speaking of Ontario and Quebec. I am satisfied that in the province of Ontario, 25 or 30 years ago, you could buy good lumber for about one-fifth of what you pay for it to-day. Lumber which was practically unsaleable then brings a good price now. I think my statement was not far afield. It may be that in British Columbia where they had no facilities 30 years ago for cutting lumber except the old fashioned whip-saw, lumber was costly ; but now, with their large mills and improved machinery, the cost has been much reduced. Now, let us see whether we are getting three per cent on this money because I want to see how profitable this investment is, and whether the government ought not to consider the propriety of changing their policy. Has the minister made a calculation as to how much three per cent on $1,430,850 would amount to ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have not made the calculation.
iMr. HENDERSON. He will hardly find he is getting three per cent on the money.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: If we get $42,000 next year, it will be three per cent.


David Henderson: You only got $29,332 last year. Is there going to be a bigger run of logs ? Bear in mind that the capital is being increased. I am merely inquiring whether we are making a profitable investment of the people's money. I think honestly that rwe are not bound to keep up those works to the extent that we have been doing in the past.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: But what can we do with those works 1


David Henderson: Allow somebody else to keep them up.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No one else will keep them up.


David Henderson: Then they are not required. Why should we keep up expensive works that even those engaged in the lumber industry do not require ? I leave the matter to the minister and his colleagues to consider seriously.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it not a fact that you lose money by reason of some people not paying their dues ?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think so. I am informed by the deputy that some years ago we lost money, but now the department is more strict in collecting the dues.
Some resolutions reported.


ADJOURNMENT-AUTONOMY BILL AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
Mr. MONK.: I would like to give notice that when the House goes again into Committee of the Whole on Bill (No. 69) I will

move as an addition to clause 2 of the Bill, the following paragraph :
Either the English or the French language may be used by any person in the debates of the legislative assembly of the province and in the proceedings of the courts, and both these languages shall be used in the records and journals of such assembly, and all laws made by the legislature shall be printed in both languages : provided, however, that the said legislative assembly may by law or otherwise regulate its proceedings and the manner of recording and publishing the same and the regulations so made shall be embodied in a proclamation which shall be forthwith made and published by the Lieutenant Governor in conformity of the law and thereafter shall have full force and effect.
What business will be take*n up to-morrow ?


Mr. FIELDING.: We will proceed with the estimates of the Public Works Department, to be followed by those of the Interior if time permits.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to. and House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, June 16, 1905.